# Electric cars / the way forward ?



## kennowaybino (Feb 7, 2015)

Hi, interested in making my next Audi purchase to be an all electric affair / preferably an A3 as it ticks all the boxes for room ect
Anyone know if Audi have anything planned for the near future?


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## powerplay (Feb 8, 2008)

Of course they do. Probably be electric versions of at least the base models of the entire range within 5 years.


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## Blade Runner (Feb 16, 2018)

kennowaybino said:


> Hi, interested in making my next Audi purchase to be an all electric affair / preferably an A3 as it ticks all the boxes for room ect
> Anyone know if Audi have anything planned for the near future?


EVs will be soon tumbling out of all VAG factories (if you want something A3 sized, the VW ID.3 will be out next year) but you would be well advised to wait a couple of years. By that time, the public (super)charging infrastructure should have improved dramatically and battery tech/range in new cars will also have improved.

It's really a case of 'dead man walking' for petrol and (especially) diesel cars. Nicely summed up in a recent article about Porsche's plans for the Cayman/Boxster. The journo said ".. the current four-cylinder 718 twins will have to soldier on until 2023 in their current, perhaps face-lifted forms" (i.e. until the all electric 718 arrives). But "soldier on"? That gives an idea of how industry insiders view the current transition period.


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## kennowaybino (Feb 7, 2015)

Interesting mate, thanks


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## macaddict111 (Jun 13, 2018)

Rumor is the next TT (if it's called that) will be a compact electric SUV a la Mustang Mach-E.


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## Ddave (Mar 6, 2019)

Am I missing something, please enlighten me, but with all these 'green' electric cars.. We need to plug them in to charge them which increases the fuel used at the power station, usually coal fired and then all that crap gets fired out into the atmosphere from the power station. Doesn't sound that green and that excludes the equation of the batteries which are about as green as the colour red.


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## Hoggy (May 8, 2002)

Hi Ddave, There are only 6 coal fired powerer stations in the UK & only run on merit, if nuclear, gas, wind & solar can suppky enough energy they don't generate. 
Fossil fueled Power stations are designed & most efficient when running at max load/output if they have to reduce load because of wind, solar or gas power stations then alot of the efficiency of running these other sources are lost, so until these other sources can supply all the energy required they are as not efficient as we are led to believe.
Very similar to your TT lots of cold starts & town driving very inefficient.
Hoggy.


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## 90TJM (Sep 30, 2013)

These 6 will have all gone by 2025.Need to get some more Nuclear builds started!


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## Hoggy (May 8, 2002)

90TJM said:


> These 6 will have all gone by 2025.Need to get some more Nuclear builds started!


Hi, Something has to change.
Hoggy.


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## NP46 (Sep 8, 2019)

macaddict111 said:


> Rumor is the next TT (if it's called that) will be a compact electric SUV a la Mustang Mach-E.


Maybe it'll be called a TTE, similar to the VW Golf GTE :?


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## ZephyR2 (Feb 20, 2013)

I wouldn't bank on EVs being the way forward for long. Even now at some private charging stations, e.g. on motorways, the cost of recharging is approaching the cost per mile of petrol.

Once the government decides that the EV bandwagon is rolling it will remove the subsidy on new cars and start levying tax on electric charging, at home and elsewhere, to compensate for the loss of duty on fuels. Eventually as EV ownership grows charging prices will go even higher - well someone's got to pay for the cost of renewing the electricity distribution infrastructure in order to cope with the massive demand required for charging EVs. As well as paying for the cost of bringing additional power stations on line.

By that time hydrogen fuel cell technology will have advanced sufficiently to make it a viable alternative. Green at street level like EVs but with the refilling convenience of conventional fuels.


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## blaird03 (Nov 9, 2013)

Give it another 3 or 4 years before I make the move to battery..
In the meantime - i am moving to the 3l v6 BMW z4 -- make the most of that v6 engine whilst I can..


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## Blade Runner (Feb 16, 2018)

ZephyR2 said:


> I wouldn't bank on EVs being the way forward for long. Even now at some private charging stations, e.g. on motorways, the cost of recharging is approaching the cost per mile of petrol.
> 
> Once the government decides that the EV bandwagon is rolling it will remove the subsidy on new cars and start levying tax on electric charging, at home and elsewhere, to compensate for the loss of duty on fuels. Eventually as EV ownership grows charging prices will go even higher - well someone's got to pay for the cost of renewing the electricity distribution infrastructure in order to cope with the massive demand required for charging EVs. As well as paying for the cost of bringing additional power stations on line.
> 
> By that time hydrogen fuel cell technology will have advanced sufficiently to make it a viable alternative. Green at street level like EVs but with the refilling convenience of conventional fuels.


You are right about the government and the huge potential loss in fuel duty and road tax. It will have to be made up 'somehow', so I guess we just have to accept that. On the recharging front, the extra demand isn't actually that massive (the average driver - doing less than 10k miles per year - will only have to charge up once a week at the most) and no new power stations will be required, at least within the next 10 years. The planned wind/solar/wave projects will make up for the loss of the oldest coal and gas fired stations. Lots about this on the national grid website, and also those of regional distributors like Western Power.

The hydrogen fuel cell is not the problem. Its the cost of manufacturer and distribution of hydrogen that is prohibitive (for example, each refilling station would cost about £1m) and is a complete non-starter for ordinary cars. May be a different story for huge HGVs and trains however...

R&D in new (solid state) battery tech is moving very fast, so the huge weight and limited range associated with Lithium-ion batteries will soon be much improved. Maybe within 2-3 years even. Now is not a good time to be buying an electric car, as they are crazy expensive (even with the grant) and the public charging infrastructure is terrible. It was reported in AutoExpress this week that Boris plans to spend £1 billion on fast public chargers if he gets elected, pledging that "no driver will be more than 30 miles from a public EV charger". Sounds a long way to me, but a statement like that has to cover all the very remote areas of the country. No time scale given, but I assume that there is something in the actual manifesto. Not exactly bed time reading though.


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## s3dbw (Feb 22, 2018)

Not until they sort out real world range problems for those of us who live in rural areas!


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## ZephyR2 (Feb 20, 2013)

I cannot believe that no new generating capacity will be required. Only a few years ago, before EVs became a big thing, there were repeated concerns about the lack of sufficient generating capacity within the UK and warnings of potential brown outs.

I can't find the report I was reading recently but in essence home charging will be mainly limited to 11KW chargers as any more than that, in combination with someone putting the kettle, on would blow the main fuse, most of which are rated at 60 amps.
The regional distributor could go round and upgrade the main fuse every house (a costly exercise in itself) but then if too many people took advantage of their faster charging capability then the local loop distribution system would not be able to cope.

Overcoming the limited range of batteries is only part of the problem. Even with current battery capacities charging them is a time consuming task. Superfast chargers can get a 70% charge time down to 15 - 20 minutes but the charging leads required are heavy and unwieldy and as thick as my arm. They have to be, to accommodate the thickness of cable required and because they have to have their own in-built cooling system. Likewise the car's battery has to have its own cooling system to prevent it overheating and exploding. Even a AA battery on recharge can get quite warm. Sooner or later the laws of physics will limit what can be done with this technology.

With regard to hydrogen fuel cells I understand that the long term aim is to have localised on-site generation of hydrogen rather than having a distribution network.


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## Blade Runner (Feb 16, 2018)

I would agree with nearly all of that. There have indeed been repeated concerns and warnings, but apart from an incident last year (due to a very unusual set of circumstances), nothing dire has happened. And there is obviously spare capacity, even if it occasionally gets piped in from abroad.

Home charging is definitely _not_ the solution ('emergency' back-up maybe, and that's assuming you can even do it!), so the public network has to improve massively. Yes, you can theoretically do hydrogen generation on site (through electrolysis) but it is still hugely expensive, partly due to safety issues.

You are also right to suggest that existing Lithium-ion batteries are not the solution - despite what Tesla says - but solid state batteries currently in development should not suffer from the disadvantages that you point out. Or, at least, they will be significantly reduced. Especially weight, and all the problems that that brings. Public charging will become acceptable once the 10-90% recharge time gets down to 10-15 minutes, which it will. And the recharging stations will nearly all be located in places where you can grab a coffee while you wait


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## ZephyR2 (Feb 20, 2013)

We shall see. Would you like to have a little wager, say 50p, on which way it goes. :wink:


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## captainhero17 (Apr 10, 2018)

Some nice points across the board. Its a good debate when you cant say that you are on either side definitively.
Cant and wont comment on the EV charging stations around the old empire. :lol:

In Germany, Slovenia, Croatia and Italy. There are few of them around. And say 2-3 charging stations on every "big public parking spots". Problem is that even now some people find it hard to charge their cars. (even with the relatively tame EV numbers).

Unless they bring some super charge times that can do it around 5min. You will never have the efficiency and space to recharge all the cars that are around that area with measly 3 spots. Increasing the number of charging stations is a good start. But decreasing charging time will be far bigger impact on solving the EV problem.

You still have congestion on some popular petrol stations even today. And that's with people like me who fill up, teleport to the payment desk, pay and GTFO. (all under 5 minutes)

Current situation is bearable because still few people have EV.

While living in London I have seen some neighborhoods with EV cars in the drive way. Its f#&* ridiculous. Cables everywhere, extender on a extender. And thats if you are lucky to have a house with pavement parking. People who have flats and street parking? No chance. People will destroy those cables out of spite if nothing. :?


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## cliveju (Jun 27, 2018)

I don't get all the negativity about EVs. I live in an area where most houses have a small driveway so a charging point is easy to add. If your main car usage is commuting, shopping and going out locally then an EV is ideal, especially if there is another car in the household, which could be a hybrid. On-street charging will come eventually too. I think we could get to 50% EVs in new vehicle purchases in the next 5 years.


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## Blade Runner (Feb 16, 2018)

ZephyR2 said:


> We shall see. Would you like to have a little wager, say 50p, on which way it goes. :wink:


You're on 8)


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## Mark Pred (Feb 1, 2017)

macaddict111 said:


> Rumor is the next TT (if it's called that) will be a compact electric SUV a la Mustang Mach-E.


If it becomes a compact SUV, it won't be a TT anymore, it'll be, a compact SUV :lol:


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## leopard (May 1, 2015)

Certainly not the way forward. Manufacture of batteries for next generation car usage is the next global catastrophe which going by the fragility of the globe as it is, could well likely finish us off.

Hydrogen is the only way going forward.


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## Ddave (Mar 6, 2019)

I reckon Audi should stop selling cars and start making push bikes, you know, like the ones your Nan had with a basket on the front.
Thanks to Hoggy for the info but I don't buy the 'green' credentials of electric cars, destroying other aspects of the planet to make batteries etc etc which brings me back to the bicycles. No doubt Audi would offer wheels as an optional extra!


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## SamoaChris (Jun 24, 2014)

The comments on electric and hydrogen fuel cell echo my own thoughts. I'm in no rush to move away from petrol but guess when I come to change the practical car/SUV I will be forced to go down the electric, hybrid etc. route. I will be Ok with that to some extent, as long as it has sufficient range and drives well, but no way do I want an electric sports car! Acceleration will be great but some of the enjoyment for me is the sound and controlling the engine. And don't get me started on self-driving cars!

It will be difficult to get enthusiastic about an electric car and I can't see myself going to rallies and other events to look at each others! Having said that I did go to an air display at Shuttleworth a couple of years ago and was bemused at a get together of Teslas amongst the car displays.

As alternative fuel vehicles become the norm a lot of businesses e.g. tuning and accessories will disappear.

Fortunately petrol will survive for a few more years yet and allow me to enjoy my TT and my motor bikes.

Chris


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## Blade Runner (Feb 16, 2018)

SamoaChris said:


> The comments on electric and hydrogen fuel cell echo my own thoughts. I'm in no rush to move away from petrol but guess when I come to change the practical car/SUV I will be forced to go down the electric, hybrid etc. route. I will be Ok with that to some extent, as long as it has sufficient range and drives well, but no way do I want an electric sports car! Acceleration will be great but some of the enjoyment for me is the sound and controlling the engine. And don't get me started on self-driving cars!
> 
> It will be difficult to get enthusiastic about an electric car and I can't see myself going to rallies and other events to look at each others! Having said that I did go to an air display at Shuttleworth a couple of years ago and was bemused at a get together of Teslas amongst the car displays.
> 
> ...


Hey Chris. I'm in no rush either (the smart money is on "watch and wait") and its actually going to be quite difficult for the government to persuade motorists into BEV cars for a year or two. An electric sports car sounds like a contradiction in terms but look at what Porsche have done with the new Taycan. The performance figures are absolutely staggering, and that's using old fashioned Li-ion batteries that helped push the weight of the thing up to 2.2 metric tonnes!

The lack of engine/exhaust noise will be a big deal for many petrol heads but it has never been a big turn-on for me (you have to be outside the car to really appreciate it anyway) so I am quite looking forward to an all-electric Cayman or TT. The 'controlling the engine' aspect is undoubtedly going to be a huge change, however, so I am with you on that one. I am just hoping that the blistering performance will make up for that presumed lack of engagement.

And don't worry, I'm sure that petrol will remain freely available for at least the next 15-20 years...


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## SamoaChris (Jun 24, 2014)

I retired earlier this year so that should see me out! 

BiL is a petrol head and has had some nice cars over the years but has embraced electric. He got an electric van for work a few months ago and has recently taken delivery of a Tesla Model 3. He does have a Lotus Elan in the garage though!

Chris


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## Blade Runner (Feb 16, 2018)

SamoaChris said:


> I retired earlier this year so that should see me out!
> 
> BiL is a petrol head and has had some nice cars over the years but has embraced electric. He got an electric van for work a few months ago and has recently taken delivery of a Tesla Model 3. He does have a Lotus Elan in the garage though!
> 
> Chris


He would probably appreciate the Tesla Roadster.
A stunning car to look at, and based on the famous Lotus Elise chassis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Roadster_(2008)#/media/File:Roadster_2.5_windmills_trimmed.jpg

Musk later admitted that that strategy turned out to be a mistake (EVs don't work very well on petrol car chassis!) but lets ignore that for now. He is claiming that the replacement car (due out late next year) will be the fastest production car in the world. 0-62 mph in 1.9 seconds. Bonkers.


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## Barmybob (Nov 4, 2015)

The EV industry has been around for many years but development stagnated. It is interesting to see all the new development and I think it is the future. The worrying element however isn't really the vehicles, though there are some issues around battery tech, the main issues are regarding infrastructure.

A basic slow charger operates on a 13A plug top and draws roughly 11A continuous and provide about 3.0KW capacity, obviously, and in a perfect world, it would take 10 hours to undertake a 30kWH charge. Most of us have a domestic single phase supply at home so our absolute maximum supply at home would be 32A, supporting a 7.4 KW fast charger.

But if everyone in the street were to run such a charger the current electrical infrastructure would not be sufficient to support this demand. This is because all of our domestic electrical supply has been built taking electrical diversity into consideration. During construction we have assumed that not all electrical circuits will be run at full load, and even then the full load calculation was never @32A per house!

If we also look at charge areas. They would obviously be seeking to supply at the fastest charge rate possible in an effort to lure you in and reduce charge times. But what these places don't shout about is the site specific "Spare" electrical capacity. Basically a site may provide 10 x fast chargers but these units will be load balanced. It might well be possible that the maximum full charge is limited to just two of those 10 chargers running at a time. So when all 10 chargers are used the supply will drop and it could well fall below the defined 7.4KW "Fast Charge" rate!

When you consider the challenges, and costs, of getting fast broadband to households just think about the challengers and costs involved in supplying better power infrastructure. In my honest opinion it just isn't going to happen. For most of us the choice won't be which EV we are going to buy it will be which bus / tram / train do I need and where can I park my bike!


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## powerplay (Feb 8, 2008)

Agreed and your example assumes the only device in use is the fast charge - what about when I want to also run the heating, use the electric oven and my 10kw power shower? :lol:


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## Blade Runner (Feb 16, 2018)

powerplay said:


> Agreed and your example assumes the only device in use is the fast charge - what about when I want to also run the heating, use the electric oven and my 10kw power shower? :lol:


Partly for the reaons mentioned by Barmybob (there are other reasons too), we should completely forget about charging up at home. Investment here would be a complete waste of money and is available to a minority anyway. All the govt investment (Boris has promised £1 billion) should be going into new substations and thousands of dedicated supercharging stations. Its the only way EVs will really take off. I am more optomistic, and think that we will see big changes in the next 2-3 years.


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## powerplay (Feb 8, 2008)

Agreed also.

No one expects to be able to drip-feed petroleum into their car parked on their driveway overnight, but everyone is expecting to do exactly that with its replacement


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## SamoaChris (Jun 24, 2014)

Blade Runner said:


> SamoaChris said:
> 
> 
> > I retired earlier this year so that should see me out!
> ...


Took me out in his Model 3 today. He has the higher powered version and the acceleration is mind blowing - too much really! For a relatively small car there is plenty of room inside and the boot is huge. I don't like the dash though, well there isn't one, just a mock wood shelf with a huge screen, horrible really. I told him to enjoy it whilst the running costs are still low.

I much preferred my Volvo when driving home!

Chris


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## F1SpaceMonkey (Nov 21, 2015)

What i don't understand about electric cars is the statement from Chris Harris (if true) on the Nissan Leaf. A 5 year old Leaf with 50-80k on the clock will have a range of 20-30 miles or something and therefore is a right off.

So what will happen to these cars and pricing on PCP deals/why would someone buy an electric car outright? Also the "green' element is also null and void. I just don't think the battery cell tech is there to honestly warrant buying one.


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## Blade Runner (Feb 16, 2018)

SamoaChris said:


> Blade Runner said:
> 
> 
> > SamoaChris said:
> ...


Did he let you drive it or was that the view from the passengers seat? I ask because lack of feedback from the steering is a common criticism. Reviews of the Model 3 Performance are generally very good (even the handling), but this car is not the future. It is just a very good first attempt by the company breaking the new ground. Your comments on the dash remind me of those by Vicky Butler-Henderson after she reviewed a Tesla (I think it was the model 3) for Fifth Gear: "very nice, but basically feels like a computer wrapped up to look like a car".

Having said that, nearly all manufacturers seem to be obsessed with touch screens and the elimination of physical buttons (e.g. the new Golf).


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## SamoaChris (Jun 24, 2014)

I didn't drive it this time. He didn't mention the steering, so assume he is happy with it, but did say that the roadholding is very good. The AWD was essential given that he gave it a bootful on a damp road and it just launched itself towards the horizon with no drama apart from the wow from me. The performance on its own isn't enough for me to want one though. As I said he has embraced electric and has solar panels for charging and putting the excess into the grid.

My XC40 has a quite large touchscreen but at least it's got some shape to it and is nowhere as dominant. It also has a digital display which is very good but I do like the look of the analogue dash in the TT particularly as it's a roadster. I'm very happy to keep the TT for many years.


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## JoshB (Sep 27, 2019)

Interesting to see some people's views on charging infrastructure. I work in the electricity industry so I know exactly what needs to happen and what's going to happen.
You can see how fragile the current system is from the events of the 9th of August. Only lost a fraction of the generation capacity and there were blackouts.


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## Barmybob (Nov 4, 2015)

JoshB said:


> I work in the electricity industry so I know exactly what needs to happen and what's going to happen.
> You can see how fragile the current system is from the events of the 9th of August. Only lost a fraction of the generation capacity and there were blackouts.


I also work with Electricity and have been on courses with many in the industry. These fellows are fully aware of the state of our supply system and do find our ambition somewhat overly optimistic.

With regard battery capacity the biggest killers are extreme heat and cold and huge discharge. Tesla's have cooling systems to cool batteries when charging and better manage temperatures. As far as I am aware none of them yet have the capacitor banks that will better manage charge and discharge. Without this capacitor technology the "Rapid Acceleration" that Tesla owners like to show off is actually contributing to the killing of the cells!

The Nissan leaf, and Renault, had no battery temperature management and this has been cited as one of the reasons behind their rapid cell decline.


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