# Should I avoid the hand car washes?



## blizeH

Since moving into my own place (with no hose, no car washing equipment, water meter etc) I've always found it far easier (and possibly cheaper) just to pay £5 to get my car cleaned by people who have all of the right equipment.

The problem is, unlike my old car, I actually care about my TT and really don't want to ruin it, so would I be best to avoid places like this in future and do it myself? I really want to take good care of it, but then I think to myself am I really less likely to ruin it/scratch it doing it myself, than people with expensive equipment who do it for a living?

Assuming I do start doing washing it from home, I'm practically starting from scratch here - other than the obvious basics (sponge, bucket, chamois etc) is there anything else I'd need? I always used TurtleWax in the past but I don't know if there's anything better that offers more protection or whatever.

Thanks


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## hardsy_uk

I would avoid the hand car washes as I have seen them do more damage than a machine car wash. The problem is that they have all the equipment but they dont use it properly in some cases. I have even watched one place put the wash mitt on the floor to jet wash it and then put it straight onto a car   

If you have a look online a lot of the companies do a 2 bucket starter kit.

This usally contains everything you need but as an essential list I would recommend the following:

1 x lambswool wash mitt
1 x Bucket with grit guard (2 buckets preferably 1 to wash and 1 for rinsing the wash mitt)
1 x ultra plush drying towel (This is far better than any other drying method and is safe on the body should any grit or dirt be missed while cleaning)

For shampoo I use the Megs Hyper Wash which is really good but I dont think you can buy it in any smaller sizes than 4L but it does last for ages.

For cleaning the wheels Megs Wheel Brightner is excellent! Again you have to buy this in 4L bottles but it dilutes down 4 parts water to 1 part wheel brightner for everyday use so thats 18L of wheel cleaner 

and Finally to finish off that basket... grab a EZ Detail Brush as it cleans the wheels really well and unlike most wheel brushes has a rubber guard on it so your hand doesnt get covered in wheel cleaner and brake dust.


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## blizeH

Brilliant, many thanks - quite a comprehensive list there  Currently looking at:

£22 - hosepipe
£10 - washmitt _(have to say, looks much better than a sponge!)_
£12 - ultra-plush towel
£30 - hyper wash

Would that be a good place to start? It's £74(!) which would account for 15 washes, and that's not including the time taken and the water rates, eek! But sadly I think you're right that I'm better off avoiding the hand car washes if possible.

Then there are these extras...

£20 - bucket with grit guard _(pardon my ignorance, but this is expensive for a bucket, is it definitely worth it?)_
£100 + £50 snow foamer _(very expensive, but would make the whole process far quicker, and far more fun)_
£26 - wheel brightener (should I try the hyper wash on the wheels first?)
£20 - detail brush _(looks good, but would the mitt do a good job also?)_


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## Gizmo68

You don't _need_ grit guard(s) if you are careful when immersing the mitt, don't swirl it around in the rinse bucket and you will not mix up all the dirt (that will sink to the bottom), 
I personally use normal cheap buckets and I rinse my dooka wash pad (same as the mitt but you don't put your hand into it - I never got on with them) between my hands in the top of the rinse bucket until clean, it doesn't take long as ideally you should be rinsing it after every panel.

As for the wheel brush, they are good, BUT i have yet to use one that does not spatter you with dirty water when it is withdrawn from the wheel! so I use the dooka wheel mitt this is a smaller version of the pad, but in a mitt form, I use the small mitt for the wheels and sills of the car *ONLY* 

Next on your list IMO should ideally be a pressure washer, these blast off most of the dirt before you think about touching the paintwork, they also make cleaning the car SOOO much easier, quicker and uses less water.
Don't forget if you are in a hosepipe ban area then Karcher pressure washers will happily run off a water butt (or any other container holding water come to that).

Snow foam whilst may look like good fun will not save you any time - it really is just a pre wash, so you SF, leave it to dwell for as long as possible, then rinse - then you wash the car as before! It will potentially reduce swirl marks but it also makes the job twice as long.


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## forest

It all depends how much you money you want to part with regarding equipment and products and whether you regard the cleaning as a pleasure or a chore. As above, personally I wouldn't take it to the car wash but get yourself a cleaning regime you are happy with. You can build up the products over time.

Certainly a wash mitt is a good starting point along with 2 or 3 buckets (general ones from supermarkets will do), plus you can never have enough micro fibre cloths, plenty available in packs in loads of retailers. Have a look on www.cleanyourcar.co.uk for guides and products. MF drying towels are good prior to buffing off with a MF cloth.
Lots of guys on here use johnson's baby bath (blue bottle) for shampoo, Zymol is another good one (approx £7 from halfords).

What colour car have you got, darker colours will show swirls and marring a lot more than silver or grey and take a lot more looking after but well worth it when clean and shiny.

There are many guides on the Internet on what is the best cleaning method, do a bit of research and find something that suits you. You could start off with something simple like below and develop it to suit
1) Rinse with hose
2) shampoo with wash mitt working from top down
3) rinse again with hose
4) dry off with towel
5) buff off with mf, including door shuts

A wheel brush is another good addition, don't forget the wheels.

Once you have nailed the cleaning, it's time to start thinking about protection using wax or sealants, then clay bar, machine polishers.......time to stop for time being, you get the picture.

Good luck, but beware, it gets addictive


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## SteveTDCi

Try this,

http://www.elitecarcare.co.uk/optimum-n ... rers_id=55

It'll do for most of the year, you could always use a jet wash to get the worst of the dirt off  I use it and its really good.


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## blizeH

Huge thanks again guys, so much useful information here!

@Gizmo - those wash pads look great, thank you. I did like the idea of a mitt, but on hindsight maybe the larger area coverage would make for a much quicker/easier washing experience rather than having to essentially run my hand over the entire car. I think you're right about just grabbing a cheap bucket too, it'd be convenient and handy to have that £20, but it is a lot of money for what's essentially a bucket with a grid of sorts on top!

@forest - thank you, it sounds silly but I really appreciate the way you laid everything out like that, it's been so long since I've washed a car from home! Will grab a couple of the 'Ultra Plush' Miracle Dryers too, they seem to be the pick of the bunch when it comes to the microfiber clothes. So much more convenient than a chamois too! Pardon my ignorance, but what does 'buff with mf' mean? mf? My car is quite dark so will show the swirls etc that you mentioned.

@ Steve - thanks, you'd recommend that over the stuff mentioned earlier in the thread then? I do like the idea of washing the car with something that'll almost help treat the paintwork, help keep it in great condition etc etc - does that fit the bill? Something that's quite fool proof, so basically as long as I make sure everything is nice and clean and I cover every part, I won't have to worry about waxing/polishing etc just yet (as forest mentioned, I can hopefully come onto that later!)

I will avoid the snow foam, although a pressure washer (for the reasons Gizmo mentioned) is tempting. How would it compare to a hose nozzle that kinda sprays the water in a certain way? I'm just thinking of a £100+ saving here, and a hose could be less hassle. I also don't know (being stupid for a moment here) if the pressure is too high it could damage the paintwork?


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## Gizmo68

The main benefits of a pressure washer over a hose and trigger spray nozzle is when you give the car it's 1st rinse, the hose will shift anything big and loose from the paintwork, whereas the pressure washer will almost clean the car - especially the wheels, you do need to keep a distance from the body, typically 18" - 242 on it's highest pressure (with a normal lance) and do not stay in one place to long, think of using it as a quick rinse rather than trying to get every last bit of dirt off and you will not go far wrong, a hose and nozzle however will do the final rinse just a good as a pressure washer.

As for polishing then waxing, the more you put in the more you will get out, the finished car will look better and (more) blemish free, it will also be easier to clean as the dirt will not adhere as much on well waxed car compared to a non waxed car.

Gently drag the back of your fingers across a panel and they will glide across a waxed car and almost drag across the paint on a non waxed car.

Oh and a waxed car will bead the rain nicely .... but we are now getting into detailing porn  ... be warned it can be an expensive long and slippery slope


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## forest

"buff with mf"

Sorry, should have said dry off with a micro fibre cloth, just in case you have any water marks left after using the drying towel, or water drops from panel joint lines, after opening doors, boot etc. you will see once you get into it.

I forgot to mention as well, when you wash your mitt, mf cloths etc, wash them together and don't use any conditioner.

You can never have enough micro fibre cloths :wink:


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## YELLOW_TT

Just my opinion for what its worth but I would rather wipe my arse with broken glass that use these hand car washes


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## stevebeechTA

There is nothing more satisfing then looking back at your nice shine TT when its just been washed and polished


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## ScoobyTT

blizeH said:


> £20 - bucket with grit guard _(pardon my ignorance, but this is expensive for a bucket, is it definitely worth it?)_


No, sorry. In what Universe would anyone ever think that a *bucket *was worth £20? It isn't. Ever. No really, never. As gizmo said, no need for a grid guard. People think grit guards work, on the erroneous assumption that there is no matter in the water that is less dense than the water, that there are no particles of any density that aren't capable of being colloidal, and that any particles in the water are somehow immune to rising up into the bucket in currents.



blizeH said:


> £100 + £50 snow foamer _(very expensive, but would make the whole process far quicker, and far more fun)_


I'd question the value of this. It doesn't necessarily make washing quicker. It's an extra step! Sure if you want to pay £150 for fun then go for it, but you can achieve the same results with a pressure washer and a decent wash technique.

£30 for hyperwash... again a waste of money in my view. Actually you're looking at £180 just to foam your car. 3.78 litres @400:1 dilution ratio is enough to make 1.5 tons of wash. A bottle of Born to Be Mild will set you back less than a tenner and used every week will last you a couple of years.



blizeH said:


> £26 - wheel brightener (should I try the hyper wash on the wheels first?)


In most cases with regular cleaning you don't need anything other than normal shampoo to keep wheels clean. The occasional use of something stronger to get rid of any tar spots, but that's about it.



blizeH said:


> £20 - detail brush _(looks good, but would the mitt do a good job also?)_


£20 for a F***ING BRUSH?! :lol: Seriously, £3 for a horse hair brush (or £9 if you want a Zymol label on the bag) will do the job.


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## blizeH

Thanks so much again guys, so much useful information in here!

Going to just get a hose with nozzle for now, and see how I get on, definitely not even considering the snow foamer now either. Will get a couple of mf cloths (thanks for the advice on washing these too) as they look so much better than a chamois!

Will also just get a regular/cheap bucket and not worry about the grit guard, like you said as long as I'm careful it shouldn't be a problem anyway.

So, now I'm looking at:

Brilliant, many thanks - quite a comprehensive list there  Currently looking at:

1x hosepipe
1x washmitt _(or this one?!)_
1x washpad_(so I can decide if I prefer this or the mitt)_
2x ultra-plush towel
1x hyper wash

One final question - *is there anything I can get that will just require one coat*? Not sure if that makes any sense, but I'd like to just wash the car, rinse it, then dry it, rather than having to wax/polish it all the time... just wondering if there's anything that will act as a 2 in 1 or 3 in 1 of sorts? Don't mind paying a lot extra for something that's going to save a lot of time  Thank you!


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## ScoobyTT

CarLack Nano Systematic Care is going to be the thing you're after there I think. You can apply it to a damp car so don't need to go overboard with drying (though personally I wouldn't apply it to a car that was still soaking, so getting the worst off would be useful). It'll last for months, but if you're feeling like a bit more effort you can top it with their Long Life Sealant which layers up nicely.

Don't take my word for it though. It's a favourite of Tim at CleanYourCar also.

Overall, I don't recommend wax. Its appearance is short lived (the finish is soft so cloth holograms the next time you wash and dry are virtually inevitable). CarLack NSC will mask light swirling, clean the paint without abrasion, remove tar spots, and seal all at the same time, with a clearer finish that outlasts wax, doesn't watermark or hologram easily and is pretty impervious to bird bombs. AND, you'll like this bit also... it's not expensive and a 500ml bottle will last you for a few years easily.

If you want a cheaper shampoo you could try CarLack's shampoo, which is supposed to be very good though I've not yet tried it myself because my BTBM is going to last another year or so yet


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## blizeH

Brilliant, thank you! Something like this then?

Rinse (with hose or pressure washer)
Some of that in a bucket, give it a good wash
Rinse again
Dry with a towel

And done?


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## YELLOW_TT

blizeH said:


> Brilliant, thank you! Something like this then?
> 
> Rinse (with hose or pressure washer)
> Some of that in a bucket, give it a good wash
> Rinse again
> Dry with a towel
> 
> And done?


Then clay bar polish and wax :wink: :lol:


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## blizeH

Noooooooooooo!


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## TheMetalMan0

SteveTDCi said:


> Try this,
> 
> http://www.elitecarcare.co.uk/optimum-n ... rers_id=55
> 
> It'll do for most of the year, you could always use a jet wash to get the worst of the dirt off  I use it and its really good.


This stuff is ace. Use it year round on my car too. So quick and easy to use. Still use 2BM to be safe


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## blizeH

Is that an alternative to this? http://www.cleanyourcar.co.uk/valeting- ... d_387.html

ie just wash the car and it's nice, clean, shiny and protected?


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## ScoobyTT

blizeH said:


> Brilliant, thank you! Something like this then?
> Rinse (with hose or pressure washer)
> Some of that in a bucket, give it a good wash
> Rinse again
> Dry with a towel
> And done?


No no, it's not a shampoo. It's something to use after washing, but you can skimp on the drying as I mentioned earlier. You do have to buff it off though. A 3L bottle like the one you're looking at would last you about 10 years so you may want to kerb your enthusiasm for buying massive bottles of everything :lol:

If you want to just wash and have protection, then to be honest you're never going to get much in the way of protection and your paint isn't going to have any significant layer on top of it. You're going to have to put some effort in - sorry but it's just not that easy: if it was, everyone would do it. CarLack is about as easy as you're going to get given that spray on sealants can fail spectacularly in a short period of time.


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## blizeH

Ah, I see, thank you, so it's more:

Rinse 
Fill one bucket with diluted Hyper wash, wash car using washpad
Rinse again
Fill another bucket with diluted CarLack, again applying using washpad?
Final rinse
(optional buff then using the drying towel?)

Basically, I need two buckets, hyperwash, carlack, two washpads, drying towel and a mitt?

Sorry for being so dense by the way, like I said it's been a long time since I've washed a car, and obviously want to get this right since I finally have a car worth caring about


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## ScoobyTT

NOOOOOOOOO! Ok. Put the CarLack down and STEP _AWAY _FROM THE BUCKETS. At this point I'm beginning to wonder if you're just having a bit of a laugh, or if you're in some way allergic to finding out how to use the products you're aiming to buy. :lol:

What you need is this:
_One _bucket.
Shampoo. 
_One _sponge/mitt.
Drying towel.
CarLack NSC.
Some scraps of old, clean, cotton to apply it with. Avoid fabric softeners, or wash a couple of times to get rid of any. 
A good read of the instructions [smiley=book2.gif] Hint: http://www.carlack.de/cmseng/?p=86
Some microfibre cloths for buffing.
Some non-biological detergent to wash your cloths with, and might I suggest that there's no need to buy 5 gallons of this :lol:


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## blizeH

... :E Thank you very much Scooby. Apologies again for my lack of common sense!


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## TheMetalMan0

Just to confuse you some more you might need 2 buckets 
1 to fill with shampoo and water. (Detergent)
1 filled with just water. (Rinse)

When you wash the car, as soon as the wash pad comes off of the dirty car it goes into your rinse bucket to wash all the grime and crap off of it. It then goes into your detergent bucket nice and clean ready to go back onto the car. This way you're keeping your detergent bucket clean.
These buckets do not need to cost £20, the £1 ones from B&Q work fine 

It all depends how far you want to take it and how much time you want to spend.


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## ScoobyTT

Nah we've already debunked the flawed assumptions of the two bucket method, you're just muddying the waters now :wink:


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## TheMetalMan0

ScoobyTT said:


> Nah we've already debunked the flawed assumptions of the two bucket method, you're just muddying the waters now :wink:


Haha ok. Has anybody mentioned Iron X? :wink:


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## blizeH

TheMetalMan0 said:


> SteveTDCi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Try this,
> 
> http://www.elitecarcare.co.uk/optimum-n ... rers_id=55
> 
> It'll do for most of the year, you could always use a jet wash to get the worst of the dirt off  I use it and its really good.
> 
> 
> 
> This stuff is ace. Use it year round on my car too. So quick and easy to use. Still use 2BM to be safe
Click to expand...

Have to say, the more I read up on this, the more this seems like a great option. As tempting as it is to spend loads of money upfront on a snow foamer, then spend ages setting it up every time I wash the car, I don't know if the time it'd take (probably 2 hours all in?) every week would be off-putting.

My main issue with the Optimum No Rinse is that it doesn't actually seem that safe maybe? I mean, if there's grit etc and you don't wash it off with a hose/pressure washer, won't you just scratch it all into the paintwork?


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## ScoobyTT

I've never reached a firm conclusion on that one. Not needing to rinse is a bonus but I'm skeptical of the lubrication and water softening claims. Hardness of water isn't going to affect the paint so in my opinion it's just about creating a psychological effect with the user. You could lubricate your sponge/mit with the slickest oils, but you'll still be dragging particles across the surface that are trapped between the mit and the paint. Unless ONR magically takes all the corners off every particle that'll be dragged across the surface, I don't really see any advantage over normal washing apart from the need not to rinse, but rinsing is probably the quickest job of car washing anyway so I can't get too excited about not doing it.  I


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## blizeH

That's not a bad point Scooby, although the initial cost is cheaper (I did a quick listing of the stuff I wanted earlier, eek!) and there should be a lot less hassle involved, for example if I do go the pressure washer/snow foam route it'd take a lot longer to set everything up... I'm basically wondering if the time and money I save would be better off spent on sealants, waxes etc


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## ScoobyTT

Hang on, you're going around in circles here. I thought you weren't going to do snow foam? And how many wash pads and mitts do you need? Do you have an octopus butler? :lol:

As mentioned, you may like waxing, you may not, but it does give a softer finish that doesn't hold its appearance as long and is susceptible to hologramming from cloths and holding dirt against the will of pressure washers. Given your original brief of best result for minimum effort (which isn't a lot different to my own, having tried various approaches), I think your best bet is to ditch the wax. The litre bottle of NSC will last you many years and it's as easy as falling off a log for the most part.

We can discuss other products once you've got the basics settled. :wink:


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## rustyintegrale

Two buckets, one mitt.

One with warm, soapy water made with Johnsons Baby in the blue bottle.

The other filled with luke warm clean water.

Pre-hose (soak) car with water.

Use mitt in soapy bucket and wash small area. Rinse in clean water. Then back into soapy and repeat whole process until car washed.

Throw both buckets of water away.

Rinse thoroughly with cold water and use a proper drying cloth to finish (not a 'leather').


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## blizeH

@ rusty - thank you! Seems like a very decent, fool proof wash method. A proper drying towel and wash mitts definitely sound like essentials, though I've not seen too many mentions of Johnsons Baby soap! 

@ Scooby - I know... Sadly, I think it's actually an understatement to say I'm going around in circles! I wasn't going to go the snow foam route, but the more I read the more it seemed like I'd need a pressure washer, and then I figured hey, why not get a snow foam lance too? ;p But since then I've done a lot of research on Optimum No-Rinse (thanks Steve/Metal) and it just seems like such a good option - to be able to practically wash the entire car in the same time as it'd normally take me just to set up the snow foam option! But the way I'm going, it won't be long before I'm put off by both of these and go back to the simpler wash method that rusty mentioned!

This video really convinced me - I know he's a pro and makes it look effortless, but the whole idea and end result of the no-rinse product really appeal to me. Good shout on the wax though, I think I need to sort actually washing the car before I start messing around with waxes! I'm guessing I should start with wash and CarLack, then in time maybe introduce the waxing if I'm feeling keen.

I do apologise for dragging this out by the way. Unfortunately I'm both clueless, and easily led by anything that looks even remotely good - not particularly useful when there are so many amazing car washing products and methods out there!


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## Pensive666

If you really want minimum effort meguiars wash and wax is the best I've come across and the shine stays wet look for a fortnight at least.

Plus it smells really nice


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## V6graeme

hardsy_uk said:


> I would avoid the hand car washes as I have seen them do more damage than a machine car wash. The problem is that they have all the equipment but they dont use it properly in some cases. I have even watched one place put the wash mitt on the floor to jet wash it and then put it straight onto a car
> 
> If you have a look online a lot of the companies do a 2 bucket starter kit.
> 
> This usally contains everything you need but as an essential list I would recommend the following:
> 
> 1 x lambswool wash mitt
> 1 x Bucket with grit guard (2 buckets preferably 1 to wash and 1 for rinsing the wash mitt)
> 1 x ultra plush drying towel (This is far better than any other drying method and is safe on the body should any grit or dirt be missed while cleaning)
> 
> For shampoo I use the Megs Hyper Wash which is really good but I dont think you can buy it in any smaller sizes than 4L but it does last for ages.
> 
> For cleaning the wheels Megs Wheel Brightner is excellent! Again you have to buy this in 4L bottles but it dilutes down 4 parts water to 1 part wheel brightner for everyday use so thats 18L of wheel cleaner
> 
> and Finally to finish off that basket... grab a EZ Detail Brush as it cleans the wheels really well and unlike most wheel brushes has a rubber guard on it so your hand doesnt get covered in wheel cleaner and brake dust.


I would agree with hardsy_uk about 2 bucket method preferably 1 to wash and 1 for rinsing the wash mitt, you will be amazed at how dirty the clean water gets its frightening how dirty the car is!


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## ScoobyTT

blizeH said:


> I do apologise for dragging this out by the way. Unfortunately I'm both clueless, and easily led by anything that looks even remotely good - not particularly useful when there are so many amazing car washing products and methods out there!


  Well that's the thing: they're not really that amazing. Most of it is marketing hyperbole and "bro science" recirculated as gospel without actually applying any critical thinking. People like the process, form an attachment to it, and bingo it must be true. Not necessarily. That's the "eat shit, billions of flies can't be wrong" argument, and that's fallacious. Unfortunately a lot of talk about car washing usually involves turning a simple 1 or 2 step process into a 10 step process with only subjective justification for it and no real evidence. 

If you work on the basis of taking the last idea that pops up then you're going to be chasing your tail and editing your shopping list for a long time, so grab the basics and tinker to suit your way of working later.

I reserve any opinion on ONR because I haven't tried it. I don't see that it's going to do any harm _unless _the car is too dirty to start with. It wouldn't save me personally any water, so I've not felt any need to try it. I may at some point.

Let's take the often advocated two bucket method. I've never used it, and never suffered any ill effects. Would my car be any better cleaned by using it? No, because I only put a clean sponge back on the car anyway. I don't put any special effort into that either. I swish the sponge around and it comes out clean. On the rare occasion something sticks to it, it gets taken off or rinsed off. Water currents and floating matter easily negate the need for grid guards. If you're washing sensibly, there simply is no grit in your bucket anyway, and anything denser than water will be of such low mass that a grit guard will do nothing to stop it moving around. If you use a rinsing bucket and the water is getting that dirty, then in my view the car wasn't clean enough when you started washing in the first place. I don't care if you use 2, 3 or 8 buckets - it really is entirely up to you - but I can state with certainty that you don't _need _to and that's why I fervently debunk it.

Here's my view on baby bath: 
It's cheap, but you need to buy more of it, so averaged out it's about the same cost as buying a mid-priced shampoo. I found that BTBM rinses a bit better than the JBB in warm weather. JBB works, so my preference is based purely on being a bit easier when the weather is warm and not costing any more.

*So here's my final word and what I think is a sensible shopping list and approach for what you seem to want to achieve:
*
One bucket (look how many the guy in your linked video uses and he's washing a week's road grime there)
One mitt or sponge (the debate on which is subjective, I go with a sponge because any particles are easier to see, and mitts are a bit of a faff to keep at their best)

Go for the pressure washer to get the worst of the crud off the car to start with.
If the car's not too bad, just use the hose and stick your thumb over the end of it.
That doesn't mean you have to spend another £70 on snow foam, so don't bother with it. The effort:reward ratio is too low. Whatever pre-washing and rinsing you do, there will always be ultra-fine dirt still left on the car.
If you don't want to go with the pressure washer, rusty's method will mostly do just as well but you'll need to be a bit more careful on the sides.

If you think ONR will suit you, go for a sample/small size and see how you get on with it. Pensive's Wash&Wash suggestion may be worth a go.
If you don't like these, get some Johnsons Baby Bath as it's cheap and see how you get on with that. 
If you don't get on with that, then get some Dodo BTBM. A bottle will last you a couple of years with weekly use.

A drying towel. No need to go overboard and no need to pay through the odds. 
I would say avoid waffle towels as I've found them to be a bit rubbish compared to an ordinary towel.
If you don't get on with the one you buy, then you can always use an ordinary towel that's been washed so as to have no fabric softeners on it.

CarLack NSC you've already got on your list. I think it fits your brief best and has a high effort:reward ratio and is cost-effective. Again a bottle will last you years. And as you're looking at the 1L bottle for value, probably about 4-5 years.

A few microfibre cloths. To go with the CarLack get the short pile ones. Looked after well they'll last for years also.


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## blizeH

Thank you guys, particularly Scooby - really fantastic write up and thank you for steering me in the right direction 

I think I'm going to try the ONR route - if I don't like it, I won't have wasted _too _much (maybe £30 for the solution, and Optimum's own wash mitt) whereas if I went fully the other way, with a pressure washer etc it's a big up front cost. I figure if washing the entire car can be done in 20 minutes using this method when I'm experienced with it, I'll ensure I keep it nice and clean every single week, and it'll give me more time to ensure I keep on top of the CarLack applications too, instead of dreading spending two hours outside getting myself soaked, to just wash the car without any additional protection 

I have completely re-done my shopping list, pretty happy with everything now and think I'm good to go! https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... li=1#gid=1

Once again, thank you so much


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## ian222

ScoobyTT said:


> blizeH said:
> 
> 
> 
> I do apologise for dragging this out by the way. Unfortunately I'm both clueless, and easily led by anything that looks even remotely good - not particularly useful when there are so many amazing car washing products and methods out there!
> 
> 
> 
> Well that's the thing: they're not really that amazing. Most of it is marketing hyperbole and "bro science" recirculated as gospel without actually applying any critical thinking. People like the process, form an attachment to it, and bingo it must be true. Not necessarily. That's the "eat shit, billions of flies can't be wrong" argument, and that's fallacious. Unfortunately a lot of talk about car washing usually involves turning a simple 1 or 2 step process into a 10 step process with only subjective justification for it and no real evidence.
> 
> If you work on the basis of taking the last idea that pops up then you're going to be chasing your tail and editing your shopping list for a long time, so grab the basics and tinker to suit your way of working later.
> 
> I reserve any opinion on ONR because I haven't tried it. I don't see that it's going to do any harm _unless _the car is too dirty to start with. It wouldn't save me personally any water, so I've not felt any need to try it. I may at some point.
> 
> Let's take the often advocated two bucket method. I've never used it, and never suffered any ill effects. Would my car be any better cleaned by using it? No, because I only put a clean sponge back on the car anyway. I don't put any special effort into that either. I swish the sponge around and it comes out clean. On the rare occasion something sticks to it, it gets taken off or rinsed off. Water currents and floating matter easily negate the need for grid guards. If you're washing sensibly, there simply is no grit in your bucket anyway, and anything denser than water will be of such low mass that a grit guard will do nothing to stop it moving around. If you use a rinsing bucket and the water is getting that dirty, then in my view the car wasn't clean enough when you started washing in the first place. I don't care if you use 2, 3 or 8 buckets - it really is entirely up to you - but I can state with certainty that you don't _need _to and that's why I fervently debunk it.
> 
> Here's my view on baby bath:
> It's cheap, but you need to buy more of it, so averaged out it's about the same cost as buying a mid-priced shampoo. I found that BTBM rinses a bit better than the JBB in warm weather. JBB works, so my preference is based purely on being a bit easier when the weather is warm and not costing any more.
> 
> *So here's my final word and what I think is a sensible shopping list and approach for what you seem to want to achieve:
> *
> One bucket (look how many the guy in your linked video uses and he's washing a week's road grime there)
> One mitt or sponge (the debate on which is subjective, I go with a sponge because any particles are easier to see, and mitts are a bit of a faff to keep at their best)
> 
> Go for the pressure washer to get the worst of the crud off the car to start with.
> If the car's not too bad, just use the hose and stick your thumb over the end of it.
> That doesn't mean you have to spend another £70 on snow foam, so don't bother with it. The effort:reward ratio is too low. Whatever pre-washing and rinsing you do, there will always be ultra-fine dirt still left on the car.
> If you don't want to go with the pressure washer, rusty's method will mostly do just as well but you'll need to be a bit more careful on the sides.
> 
> If you think ONR will suit you, go for a sample/small size and see how you get on with it. Pensive's Wash&Wash suggestion may be worth a go.
> If you don't like these, get some Johnsons Baby Bath as it's cheap and see how you get on with that.
> If you don't get on with that, then get some Dodo BTBM. A bottle will last you a couple of years with weekly use.
> 
> A drying towel. No need to go overboard and no need to pay through the odds.
> I would say avoid waffle towels as I've found them to be a bit rubbish compared to an ordinary towel.
> If you don't get on with the one you buy, then you can always use an ordinary towel that's been washed so as to have no fabric softeners on it.
> 
> CarLack NSC you've already got on your list. I think it fits your brief best and has a high effort:reward ratio and is cost-effective. Again a bottle will last you years. And as you're looking at the 1L bottle for value, probably about 4-5 years.
> 
> A few microfibre cloths. To go with the CarLack get the short pile ones. Looked after well they'll last for years also.
Click to expand...

Just because your not convinced with the 2 bucket method etc dont tell others to do it your way. Imo your way is more damaging. Have you ever asked a detailer why they wash the way they do?


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## ScoobyTT

But it's ok for two-bucketers to tell people to do it their way even though the case for doing so is _extremely _weak? 
Or for you to _dictate _that I shouldn't advocate any other method, just because you disagree with that point of view, even though you clearly haven't actually read my post properly?

Sorry, but I spy double standards.

Read my post again.. you'll see that I don't actually care how many buckets someone uses, and leave it entirely up to blizeH to decide what he wants to do. I just give him a little bit more critical thinking to make that decision with than the baseless mantra "get two buckets".

Sure, I make a shopping list at the end but he's free to take it or leave it and if you look at his own list, you'll see he's done exactly what I expected: taken some inspiration from all the advice he's been given but ultimately made up his own mind based on what he wants to achieve. You'll also have picked up that one bucket seems to be sufficient for ONR use, as demonstrated by a detailer in the demo video linked by blizeH, and that ONR is what he wants to start with. [smiley=thumbsup.gif]


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## blizeH

I can certainly see the benefit of two buckets, if the car is filthy, to have a rinse bucket would be invaluable, but using the ONR method (and as Scooby said, seeing the guy doing such a good job in the video) I think one bucket should suffice. I went for the grit guard in the end too since it wasn't that much more expensive, from what I can see with the ONR a lot of dirt and grime will just drip straight off before it even reaches the cloth, if you give it a good spray and leave it a little while before wiping it. Or at least that's the idea!

Oh, and if anyone's interested, *I took my old car to the hand car wash earlier* - I sat there, with people swarming around me, spraying jets everywhere, lots of different shampoos and solutions and generally lots going on. It's pretty harsh for me to just completely shun these guys who seemed to be doing a great job, working hard to keep my car clean.

And then things didn't go so well. A few of the guys were standing around, acting like twats, with chamois on their heads, and one seemingly blowing his nose in the chamois? Or at least pretending to. But no matter, those guys weren't even touching my car.

I got it home to take photos, and f**k me did they ever do a bad job. The carpets they hoovered were far from clean, the bodywork still had dirt on, the way they had cleaned the door cills they may not have even bothered doing them, the entire interior was basically sprayed with something useless, given a quick wipe so it looked shiny (and awful) so I had to put in a lot more effort to actually get the car anywhere near sale worthy. So glad I never have to go back there now, thanks to you guys  Thank you.


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## Gizmo68

I have never tried the ONR as I find it difficult to believe it can _that _effective, but those who use it seem to like it, so who am I to slate it?

As for using two buckets, why would you choose to wash _anything _in dirty water? I always rinse the car with the pressure washer to get off the worst of the muck (if really dirty then it will be snow foamed and rinsed next) then washed with the 2BM the rinse water is _always_ dirty yet the wash water is still clean (clean enough to do the other car) this to me is enough proof for me to carry on using two buckets.


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## ian222

Gizmo68 said:


> I have never tried the ONR as I find it difficult to believe it can _that _effective, but those who use it seem to like it, so who am I to slate it?
> 
> As for using two buckets, why would you choose to wash _anything _in dirty water? I always rinse the car with the pressure washer to get off the worst of the muck (if really dirty then it will be snow foamed and rinsed next) then washed with the 2BM the rinse water is _always_ dirty yet the wash water is still clean (clean enough to do the other car) this to me is enough proof for me to carry on using two buckets.


This is what i was gonna say, his first post asked how to best wash the car, my rinse bucket at the end of washing the car is filthy so if you only have one bucket that will be filthy and also the bucket you are washing the car with. Doesnt make sense to have one bucket.


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## ScoobyTT

If your bucket is "filthy" at the end of washing then you can't have done a very good prep' job. 

Anyway, a simple photo challenge for you, using no cheating shallow angle shots.
1) Find the extra damage you believe would be caused by years of washing with a single bucket.
2) Prove that using two buckets is anything other than poor conjecture.



















:wink:


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## blizeH

Looks perfect to me, but that's my worry about ONR - there is no prep work beyond spraying some solution from a bottle :/

And yup Gizmo that seemed to be my impression too - lots of people (rightly) sceptical, but it seems like anyone who tries it has no intention of going back


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## chawn90

YELLOW_TT said:


> Just my opinion for what its worth but I would rather wipe my arse with broken glass that use these hand car washes


They usually do a good job for the price but you have to have eyes in the back of your arse, Ive seen people drop sponges onto the floor n put them straight back onto cars before, there was one occasion where they were so effective with the pressure washers my old Corsa came back with less badges than I went in with.. lol RAF = rough as fuck.. I definitely wouldn't entertain the thought of taking the TT into one..


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## blizeH

They did the badge thing with my car too  Just had to buy a new badge for one of the alloy wheels before selling it


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## blizeH

Just going back through this thread now, see a couple of mentions of it - but how important is it to clay the car before applying CarLack?


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## ScoobyTT

It isn't _remotely _important. Remember my "perfect" (your words) finish from a page or two back? No clay.

Claying is another unnecessary stage and another "me too" product. Claying involves using something not too different in consistency to blu-tak to pick up impurities from the paint and then drag them across it. Naturally it can cause micro-marring. Sure there are lubricants but it's folly to think that anything sufficiently hard that gets stuck into the clay between strokes is going to magically not contact the paint because of a microscopic layer of lubricant.

The CarLack with clean your paint and leave it silently smooth without being remotely abrasive. It's fool-proof, whereas claying is not. Claying is just another thing that people think they need to do because loads of people do it. Originally clay was only sold as an emergcy use option, but now dozens of manufacturers have clay in their range for no reason other than it sells and they can make money from the bandwagon.

I know you're keen to buy things, but for the love of anything that is holy, don't hop onto bandwagons for the sake of it. If want to make extra sure your paint is super clean, try Iron-X also and then use the CarLack. You won't need to use the Iron-X often, maybe once or twice a year - you'll get a feel for how often it's worth doing, but you'd be perfectly fine without it.

And cue the clay evangelists in 3... 2...


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## blizeH

Many thanks Scooby - I've avoided the clay and think I'm good to go! Have ordered all of the usual stuff (bucket, sponges, cloths, towel etc etc) and have gone with ONR, and will also apply CarLack NCS and then the CarLack sealant (I bought the kit which has both) straight after once every 6 months or so. 

Got lots of nice interior cleaning products too, really hope everything arrives tomorrow or Saturday so I can have a good go at this on the weekend!


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## ScoobyTT

Good stuff, it'll be good if a bix box o'stuff arrives for the weekend for you. You'll find the NSC easy to use, but the Long Life Sealant can be harder to buff off so the technique with that is to apply as thinly as possible, and then it can be as easy as anything else. I've been meaning to do a guide on my foolproof technique but haven't got around to it yet.


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## blizeH

ScoobyTT said:


> You'll find the NSC easy to use, but the Long Life Sealant can be harder to buff off so the technique with that is not to apply as thinly as possible, and then it can be as easy as anything else.


Cheers Scooby, do you mean to apply the LLS as thinly as possible so it's to easier buff off? Or to not apply it as thinly as possible so you can clearly see what you're doing, and then it'll give good protection? Sorry, not sure if I'm reading your post incorrectly! Guide with a foolproof technique sounds invaluable for people like me, heh. Hoping the weather is nice so I can give it a good cleaning this weekend!


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## ScoobyTT

Sorry, I confused my wording (edited now). I was going to say not to apply too thickly, then changed my mind to applying thinly, and ended up saying the opposite of what I meant by leaving the "not" in :roll: The Long Life Sealant works best when applied as thinly as possible, so that a good proportion appears invisible as it evaporates behind your strokes. The guide dosage is 1ml to do a 2'x2' (60cm x 60cm) area. I use less than that. As it happens, applying thinly is also easier to do.

The NSC isn't so fussy when buffing, so you can knock yourself out with that. The guide dosage for that is 1ml per 30x30cm area. Generally both do ok with a light to light-medium buffing, but if you get any bits that need a bit of convincing a very light mist (nothing like a full pump) of water from a sprayer is all it needs - just that tiny bit of dampness in the cloth.

I'll try and do a full for the foolproof application guide soon. [smiley=thumbsup.gif]


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## blizeH

Brilliant, thank you very much Scooby! The weather isn't so bad here today, so hoping to have a go at it later, will remember to apply very thin layers


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## blizeH

All done! 










Mostly very happy with the results - ONR is something I think/hope I'll get used to, though based on yesterday I wasn't massively impressed. For the alloy wheels in particular, it was absolutely useless, as was the EZ detail brush I spent £20 on ;_;

CarLack seemed to give a great finish, thanks for the recommendation on that, and for the interior, Poorboys NLD is simply amazing  Thanks again guys.


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## Gizmo68

ScoobyTT said:


> Claying is another unnecessary stage and another "me too" product. Claying involves using something not too different in consistency to blu-tak to pick up impurities from the paint and then drag them across it. Naturally it can cause micro-marring. Sure there are lubricants but it's folly to think that anything sufficiently hard that gets stuck into the clay between strokes is going to magically not contact the paint because of a microscopic layer of lubricant.
> 
> The CarLack with clean your paint and leave it silently smooth without being remotely abrasive. It's fool-proof, whereas claying is not. Claying is just another thing that people think they need to do because loads of people do it. Originally clay was only sold as an emergcy use option, but now dozens of manufacturers have clay in their range for no reason other than it sells and they can make money from the bandwagon.


Well up until today I had never tried clay (or Carlack) however there was some fallout over the car that was still present after a light polish with SRP by polisher, so out came the clay, with last touch as a lubricant (I use it anyway) it very quickly and easily removed the fallout leaving the paint silky smooth and no marring.

Carlack is not exactly what you would call cheap either (what is with regard to detailing??) so IMO there is more than one way to end up with contaminate free paintwork.

Now polished and waxed again for hopefully another 12 months (with it being waxed every 3-6 months depending on how it is lasting)


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## ScoobyTT

Rock'n'Roll  You spent £20 on a brush? Whoops :lol: Try this:
http://www.cleanyourcar.co.uk/wheels-an ... d_524.html

Although it may not do too well with the gaps between your spokes, on the main surfaces it should do better than the giant bottle brush that you got. It's the original Zymol brush before they released the really high-priced one, but 1/3 the price as it doesn't come in a Zymol plastic bag.

The CarLack will last well, but it benefits from layering so you can build it up next time you wash it if so inclined. You can build up a rather glass-like appearance with it. Similarly you can remove most marks in the finish with a top-up application or local touch-up. When you feel like a deep clean, just whip out the NSC again.

It'll be interesting to see how you get on when/if you get used to the ONR.

Gizmo, yeah there's always more than one way to skin a cat, but I always recommend the most fool-proof and least potentially-abrasive means of car cleaning. I find CarLack isn't actually that expensive compared to other products, primarily due to its longevity. The initial outlay is reasonable compared to most products in my view. I've considered other sealants such as Zaino, but you get less for you money. Two years in, my NSC has about 2/3 left of a 500ml bottle, the sealant about 1/3 left, and I actually use that most weeks to keep up the finish. Put the reasonable price and use you get out of it, coupled with the quality of finish and resistance to bird bombs and it's a winner in my view. NSC is also useful in the home [smiley=thumbsup.gif]


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## blizeH

Ah, brilliant - I didn't think of layering it... should I apply both NCS and LLS or just the latter? Will grab one of those brushes next time they're in stock too. Thank you 

I don't think I applied either as well as I could've done to be honest, so the layering thing is on the cards, going to do the alloys again as well


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## ScoobyTT

Hi blizeH; when layering just do the LLS. Use the NSC whenever you want to clean it back or tackle any marks etc. Layering LLS improves the gloss too: with a dark car you can turn it into a useful mirror


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## blizeH

Haha! Brilliant  Thanks again Scooby. Think I'm going to LLS the entire car sometime, and use NCS on the wheels beforehand too (did this before, but not convinced I did a good job with it)


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## ScoobyTT

As promised, one guide to foolproof usage:
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=277024


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## blizeH

Have to say I'm not entirely convinced by this ONR thing now - washing my own car with it was okay, but my girlfriends car was quite dirty and I'm really not convinced it did a good job, and I had to rub quite hard to get some of the dirt off.

Saying that, it's been so bloody long since I washed a car myself, that could also be a problem with the regular wash methods too. Either way, I've spend close to £200 on car washing products and I'm starting to wonder how much of them were a complete waste of money ;/


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## ScoobyTT

Imagine how much you would have spent if we hadn't reined you in :lol: That doesn't sound like it'd do the paint any favours though; it's supposed to be easy. As a quick alternative which works and is inexpensive to try out, give Johnson's Baby Bath in the pale blue bottle a spin.

In general using no more than the weight of your sponge, you should be able to remove most dirt with a single swipe. A second swipe if you want to make sure, but that should be all it needs to get surface dirt off. Anything more persistent like ird or insect cack should come off after a bit of time to soften up.


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## blizeH

Haha, good point (I had priced up a pressure washer, foam lance etc!)

So you simply rinse the car with a hose, then use Johnson's Baby Bath (?!?!?! how does this compare to Meguiars Hyper wash?) in a bucket, then a single wipe (again, ?!?!?!) should get the car looking nice? Do you then rinse again with a hose, and use a drying towel?


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## ScoobyTT

I've not compared Baby Bath to Hyper Wash, but I have compared it to Born to Be Mild. See an earlier post if I remember rightly. Cost wise per year it works out about the same.

Whether you use a hose or a pressure washer, there will always be very fine dirt left behind. A hose won't be as effective as a pressure washer for obvious reasons, but you can still get quite good pressure out of a hose if you constrict the end enough.

As you have access to a hose I would do this:
1) Rinse the car. Use extra pressure on larger build-ups of dirt. 
2) If you have any persistent dirt such as behind wheel arches, squeeze out some shampoo onto to let it dwell.
3) Using a separate container to your bucket, do the wheels. Rear first, then front. 
4) Shampoo the car working from cleanest places to dirtiest places. Start shampooing at the top of the car. If you have any persistent dirt elsewhere such as behind wheel arches, squeeze out some shampoo/foam onto it to allow some dwell time. Do the roof, glass, rear wings, door tops, and mirrors. Then do the rear above the line along the bumper, the bonnet, the front, the front half of the front wings. Do the lower half of the rear bumper, starting in the centre, working towards the arches. Do the valance. Then the door shuts, then the sides (cleanest first) working from back to front. FInally do the bottom of the skirts, from front to back.

See here for an idea... you may want to vary a bit depending on where's dirtiest, but the principle is to go from cleaner areas to dirtier areas, doing the lower sections later. 








5) Rinse!
6) Dry to the same pattern above.


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## blizeH

Thank you again Scooby - looking at the two, I'm thinking born to be mild is probably my best option, since it's a dedicated (and lubricated?) car washing shampoo, especially if they cost the same amount in the long run 

Going to buy a hose with a good nozzle, some of those dooka things because they look good (d'oh...) and some shampoo - I figure then for a quick weekly wash, to get a bit of dust off etc, or if there's a hosepipe ban I can use ONR with a sponge, but if I'm washing my girlfriends car (monthly or so) or washing my car in the winter when it's covered in salt/dirt/mud I can bust out the hose and BTBM.

The picture is very useful too, thanks - it's pretty much the order I'm cleaning it at the moment, though I haven't cleaned underneath the cills and whilst looking under my car yesterday noticed they were pretty damn mucky, going to have to ensure I do a good job of them! Same with the wheel arches I guess.

Think I'm going to order BTBM, Dooka stuff and a hosepipe with decent nozzle attachment. Should be sorted then, phew!


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## blizeH

Quick question (Scooby?! ) - would Sour Power be okay as a shampoo? I read that it adds a certain shine and protection which I like the sound of, but would it interfere with CarLack NCS/LLS? Thank you!


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## ScoobyTT

Applying a little critical thinking, the "gloss and protection" claims come from the inclusion of "wax grade carnauba". How much is going to be applied to the car when it's diluted 1:800? One Dodo capful of is about 10ml, in 8000ml of water, so 0.125% of your bucket contents is shampoo. What percentage of the shampoo itself is wax? Let's say it's 5% (very generous I reckon), that gives a wash solution with 0.00624% wax. What percentage of that will bond to the car versus running off, sitting in the sponge, being rinsed off, or being wiped off again when you dry the car?

We're talking less than a microgram of wax surviving on the car *at best* based on some quick calculations. I 'm reckoning that anyone claiming benefits is suffering from the placebo effect!

In short though, give it a try if you like the sound of it, there's so little wax in it there's not a hope in hell of it interfering with the CarLack  If you don't want to spend £8.95 on Born to Be Mild, try £7.95 on the CarLack shampoo, which will definitely play nicely with the acrylics, and judging by the reviews is rather good at dirt removal too.


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## blizeH

Cheers again mate, you've been a massive help with this and I really appreciate it!

It's definitely between those three for me right now though - CarLack, Born to be Mild and Sour Pour, going to do a little research and pick one, although like you said there's probably nothing in it!


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