# Remap undetectable, is it possible?



## VerTTigo (Nov 14, 2009)

I'm interested on a remap... been talking to the guy who does this service here, explaing how i'm afraid to void the factory warranty as the dealer here is just close minded and i don't believe they would allow me to remap my car without losing the warranty. My car is only 900 km and one month old so would be terrible voiding the warranty in a such early stage. The guy told me that the dealer couldn't detect the remap by using the computer check. And the gain in power is great. Is it possible that a remap can get unoticed by the dealer? 
I really really want to get my car remapped but if this would cost my warranty i'd prefer not to do it.


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## Wallsendmag (Feb 12, 2004)

AFAIK the TT has two Flash counters one is able to be reset the other isn't


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## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

The mapper is lying. Pure and simple. Remaps are all too easy to detect and VAG are trying very hard to stop you remapping your car. The computer just checks for a single number and if that's different ( and it has to be different) then the dealer knows the car is mapped. And let's be honest, if the remap is any good the dealer's bum dyno will tell him it's mapped.

I would steer clear of any tuner who tells such obvious lies. In GB almost every tuner has an FAQ on their website that clearly states that if the dealer goes looking for a remap he will find it.


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## scottydog (Jul 24, 2009)

Howa about blue fin then?

Plug in your re-map and remove it as and when required. Just do a google search!

I'm very tempted too


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## powerplay (Feb 8, 2008)

scottydog said:


> Howa about blue fin then?
> 
> Plug in your re-map and remove it as and when required. Just do a google search!
> 
> I'm very tempted too


It's not the presence of a remap that is being detected, its the fact that the remap event has occured that is being detected.

Mapping your car with blufin then putting it back to standard is not going to help you, the counter that wallsendmag referred to is now +2 over its previous value, therefore dealer knows the ecu has been flashed regardless of what map is actually on it.


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## Jen-TT (Feb 2, 2009)

Not sure if T&C's have changed but i thought as long as your car is serviced on time using genuine parts then the warranty is no affected.

If this is the case then just go somewhere else where they wont care about the warranty.


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## Poverty (Dec 21, 2009)

I just turn my map off via the switch


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## spidermack (Sep 24, 2009)

Poverty said:


> I just turn my map off via the switch


This is a question I asked Supechips re my Bfin 
Pls see below 
"When I reset my TTS back to standard using the blue fin. Will an Audi Tech be able to tell that it has been flashed.

I been looking on a forum and have read that there are two flash counters on a TTS. What understand from that is that every time I change my back to original and install again, these counters increase.

Is this correct - that if I reflash back and for the counters increase ?"

Their reply is below 
"No, when you return to original at the end you go through a series of ignition on/offs. This is us re-setting the flash counter so no-one can see the car has been modified."


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## Ra) (May 19, 2009)

Please, then specify what lines in the contract are broken by the remapping?
I think none because software is not mentioned in any buyers agreement.
That means any attempt to recall your warranty is illegal and you can get lots of money first from the dealer then from the audi ag.


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## Poverty (Dec 21, 2009)

dealers cannot just write off your warranty because of a remap. Even in the unlikely event a remap is proven to cause a component to fail, once you have fixed that part, and then stopped using the map they will have to warranty those parts once fixed by any VAT registered garage if the parts are genuine.


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

Remaps can be detected and the flash counter will get updated - nothing will stop that.
Audi recorded the flash number on the cars ECU and the reasons for the update over the factory version centrally.

All dealers will be able to see this info.

I'm amazed that people "expect" that a manufacturer should honour a contract when you have clearly changed the conditions. Increasing the power puts additional wear on the engine and other components.

if it made no difference (engine power output), then why do Audi go to all the trouble and development effort to make a TTS engine with totally different internals to cope with that extra power?
By all means do as you pls, but accept all the implication that will mean - such as additional insurance costs and shorter component life.


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## Taipei-TT (Apr 6, 2009)

It's amazing how often this issue gets raised in forums!

As has been stated, pure and simple, no matter what a re-map company says, Audi can tell that you have flashed the ECU. Even when you re-load the original settings, they know it has been changed.

As for the programs you can turn on and off, the only thing that does is turn it off so they can't tell while driving your car. But the footprints are still there in plain sight on the ECU.

As for modding the software and expecting your warranty to be valid....this is one of the MOST basic terms of a warranty. Simply put, you have changed the fundamental operating parameters of the engine. Why should Audi take responsibility for this? They have intentionally over-engineered the engine to put out its stock HP for a reason....warranty issues. Of course Audi is aware they can increase the output with just software, but they have made a calculation on the additional wear and tear on the parts and the implications to them for warranty service. If you decide to go beyond the initial parameters, you are clearly on your own in terms of responsibility for fixing things when they go wrong.

Basically, if you have a new car, LEAVE the ECU ALONE unless you can afford to play! If you wanted more power and a warranty....they have S and RS cars for precisely this reason!


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## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

Taipei-TT said:


> Basically, if you have a new car, LEAVE the ECU ALONE unless you can afford to play! If you wanted more power and a warranty....they have S and RS cars for precisely this reason!


I agree wholeheartedly. VAG now have actually encrypted the ECU so it's almost impossible to flash the newest engines anyway. In order for my preferred tuner to map my 170bhp TDI he will have to remove two anti-tamper bolts, open the ECU, melt the glue that holds the ECU mainboard in the casing, desolder the EEPROM with the existing code on it, mount that in a flasher, flash the new map (which incidentally falsifies BOTH flash counters and the checksum for the encryption algorithm), reassemble the unit and refit it into the car with new anti-tamper bolts. And all that for 35bhp. It hardly seems worth it really.


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## Poverty (Dec 21, 2009)

wja96 said:


> Taipei-TT said:
> 
> 
> > Basically, if you have a new car, LEAVE the ECU ALONE unless you can afford to play! If you wanted more power and a warranty....they have S and RS cars for precisely this reason!
> ...


giac can map the new anti tune ecu via the obd port. Might be worth noting that in some countries VAG offer car remaps with a warranty, even now in the UK VW are selling roccos with the abt map loaded.


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## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

[QUOTE="poverty"
giac can map the new anti tune ecu via the obd port. Might be worth noting that in some countries VAG offer car remaps with a warranty, even now in the UK VW are selling roccos with the abt map loaded.[/QUOTE]

Can GIAC remap the post September 2010 diesel and the new 211bhp petrol? If they can they are doing something very clever indeed as it involves breaking extremely strong encryption, but it was bound to happen.

And I know what you mean about dealers being two-faced about selling mapped cars out of the box. I had a remapped Skoda that came from a dealer and he honoured all warranty claims, but I couldn't take it anywhere else of course.


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## Taipei-TT (Apr 6, 2009)

Poverty...

I hear you on the warrantied ABT re-map. My car had it. It was absolute crap...get ABT if you like turbo lag and your car stalling on hot days when you go from R to D.

On the other hand, when I had my A3 TDI remapped by Superchips, EVERYTHING got better! But I wouldn't have expected the dealer to help me on warranty had things gone awry!

So...for me...no remaps under warranty. And for those reading...if you are under warranty...don't be fooled into thinking a map won't affect you. It could be a very costly mod!


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## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

Superchips is a case in point actually Taipei-TT, Wings of Peterborough (they have all the VAG franchises in Peterborough) are Superchips agents and they will supply for any VAG car and fully honour any warranty claims made on any VAG car, chipped or not, so long as it's one of their chips. I'm reasonably certain they don't mention a remap if they have to phone up VAG to get the work authorised.


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## Taipei-TT (Apr 6, 2009)

That's pretty awesome service that a VAG dealer offers a warrantied re-map!! I wonder though how it works with VAG on repairs...for some things...they have to send information from the ECU in order to get authorization!

But it makes sense though...I think Superchips is a really awesome re-map that is very drivable, noticeable difference in performance, and conservative enough on the engine. My car is out of warranty in 2 months so it's going to get a re-map...now just thinking about which one! Or save my pennies and get a new S5 if the 3.0T rumors are true!


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## newt (May 12, 2002)

For the life of me I cannot understand why someone would want to re-map a brand new car, and then expect Audi to pick up the pieces. Is it really about increased performance or bragging rights in the pub. :?


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## Revolution (Nov 10, 2009)

I've heard of one mapping company offer a fully insured map.

Anyone heard of Viezu, apparently they will fully insure their work and all done via OBD.
http://www.viezu.com/
Not used them myself but hear they are very respected in the tuning industry and write a lot of maps for other companies.

Are DTUK tuner boxes no good for the diesel model mentioned earlier - they use an external box so I guess this could be removed should there be a problem.

There's a lot of "man in a van" types doing remaps but I guess you have to make a big decision to modify or not before you choose your model.

Glenn


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## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

Revolution said:


> Are DTUK tuner boxes no good for the diesel model mentioned earlier - they use an external box so I guess this could be removed should there be a problem.
> Glenn


Unfortunately the tuning box can only vary the fuel/air ratio, it cannot also vary the turbo boost which a remap can. So you get power, but LOTS of soot. That clogs the DPF and then you stop. So tuning boxes are basically incompatible with DPF equipped cars. I really think remapping isn't a sensible option for most of us. The second users of these cars will get the benefit, pure and simple.


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## sTTranger (Oct 21, 2008)

If you get a sportec remap they cover the period of your audi warranty, so if there is a fault as a result of the map your covered. Audi can only void the parts on the car that this warranty then covers


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## fozzie (Oct 20, 2009)

VerTTigo said:


> I'm interested on a remap... been talking to the guy who does this service here, explaing how i'm afraid to void the factory warranty as the dealer here is just close minded and i don't believe they would allow me to remap my car without losing the warranty. My car is only 900 km and one month old so would be terrible voiding the warranty in a such early stage. The guy told me that the dealer couldn't detect the remap by using the computer check. And the gain in power is great. Is it possible that a remap can get unoticed by the dealer?
> I really really want to get my car remapped but if this would cost my warranty i'd prefer not to do it.


if you use APS ECU remap then audi will still warant the guarantee matey
[smiley=book2.gif]


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## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

fozzie said:


> if you use APS ECU remap then audi will still warant the guarantee matey


I don't doubt what you're saying, but do have a link or something that states that officially? If so, I'll be right over for a remap!


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## Wallsendmag (Feb 12, 2004)

fozzie said:


> VerTTigo said:
> 
> 
> > I'm interested on a remap... been talking to the guy who does this service here, explaing how i'm afraid to void the factory warranty as the dealer here is just close minded and i don't believe they would allow me to remap my car without losing the warranty. My car is only 900 km and one month old so would be terrible voiding the warranty in a such early stage. The guy told me that the dealer couldn't detect the remap by using the computer check. And the gain in power is great. Is it possible that a remap can get unoticed by the dealer?
> ...


I wouldn't bet my car on it.


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## johnny_hungus (Jun 14, 2009)

Very happy with the performance of my TTS, plenty fast enough for me.

I had one of my other TT's (not TTS) remapped and it was a huge difference in performance but also a huge difference in driving style once I had the extra power.

Would not contemplate it on a new car again though, no matter what guarantees someone gives. I would like to see an official Audi sanction before anything further!


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## Smoothie (Feb 10, 2010)

I didn't want to make a new thread but on this sites FAQs it states that a remap can't be detected by insurance companies - is this BS? http://www.customtuning.co.uk/ecu_remapping-5.html

So if I want to do this to my TTS which company/remap to go with - I'm clueless - AwsomeGTI, ABT, Superchips, Sportec, VAG, ?? I have no idea what is what or what a VAG franchised dealer is 

Help me out [smiley=book2.gif]

Cheers


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## mpaul0055 (Oct 7, 2009)

Smoothie said:


> I didn't want to make a new thread but on this sites FAQs it states that a remap can't be detected by insurance companies - is this BS? http://www.customtuning.co.uk/ecu_remapping-5.html
> 
> So if I want to do this to my TTS which company/remap to go with - I'm clueless - AwsomeGTI, ABT, Superchips, Sportec, VAG, ?? I have no idea what is what or what a VAG franchised dealer is
> 
> ...


From what ive been reading smoothie its a load of BS. Maybe on some cars, but from what i gather the TT has a counter on, so no matter what the insurance/audi will know how many times its been flashed.


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## sTTranger (Oct 21, 2008)

Thats rubbish do not believe the crap on that site.

Insurance companies can find out that youve had a map and they do charge a premium. I paid £100 extra insurance as my car is mapped :?

Id be careful about any company that tells you not to inform your insurance company as its not detectable, what a load of BS :evil:


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## POSTY555 (Feb 15, 2009)

My neighbour had a bently GT which he mapped. He had some issues had to get it towed to bently. When they drove it they knew straight away the car was different performance wise. They asked him, he replied no its standard. They sent the ECU to Germany i believe to have them look deeper. To my neighbour surprise they never found anything.  Lucky guy i say, !! Now either the person who looked at the ECU was a freshy he was not clued up or the Map was really that good..


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## Smoothie (Feb 10, 2010)

So do tuning companies offer the same thing and use the same type kit or should I be looking for a specific remap. Local to me is a mobile Superchips or an APR remap at AwsomeGTI


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## 2zeroalpha (Aug 30, 2009)

Well you have a couple of choices.

There are maps that are permanently on your ECU which you can "turn down" so that they are not apparent when someone drives the car. These include Revo/Giac/APR and others I will have forgotten.

The others ae maps which you load onto the car and you then overwrite back to standard when someone else drives the car. So there is no unusual code on the ECU when you've returned it to standard. However the flash counter will show it has been reflashed. Bluefin and Shark performance offer these.


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## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

@Smoothie, the latest ECUs are encrypted and they can't be reprogrammed without pulling the ECU, in some cases chips have to be unsoldered from the ECU and put in an EEPROM flasher.

This will be overcome eventually, but at the moment it can be quite a long a expensive job remapping MY10 cars.


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## 2zeroalpha (Aug 30, 2009)

Not sure about that one. I think this might be overexagerated.


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## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

2zeroalpha said:


> Not sure about that one. I think this might be overexagerated.


The latest CR170 TDI and the new 2.0T petrol are protected with a checksum. If the checksum isn't what the car thinks it should be ie. an ECU parameter has changed, it won't go.

So you have to flash the ECU so it ignores the checksum and that is very hard to do with the ECU in the car.


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## 2zeroalpha (Aug 30, 2009)

Ah I see, because I know one My10 TTS which has remapped.


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## jamiekip (Nov 12, 2006)

A lot of hear say in here...

My view for what it is worth...
If you're going to remap use a trusted supplier with a tried and tested product - they are likely to have ironed out all the bugs and have a map that is not causing problems. Use a supplier near you, so if you do have issues help is nearby.
Why wait until you are out of warranty? I'll not try and lay claim that a remap will not put your car under additional stresses, but so long as you obey common sense and warm fluids in the car up properly (as you should when it isn't mapped also) before giving it abuse you should be fine. Clearly if you're doing the traffic light GP and generally abusing it from cold, well your asking for trouble....

With regards the way some of these maps work.

GIAC - load the latest OEM software PLUS there software on the ECU (ECU hardware for a TTS is the same as the ECU in many other humble cars, its the software that changes). They use the spare capacity in the ECU hardware to hold both maps.
Using the flash controller to swap between the maps does not increase the flash count, as the programme issues a -1 command on the flash count file, so it always stays the same.
Another benefit is the ability to reflash the map on your car if your car has adapted...

Revo - not 100% sure on how revo works on the flash counts, but you can adjust settings with the select + to try and fine tune the software.

Bluefin - swaps the software on the ECU and also does a -1 on the flash count

With regards dealers and warranties, I think this very much depends on your dealer. Even if they did flag an issue they would HAVE to prove it was as a result of the remap that caused any problem in order to void the claim. This is hard for them to do and In know of several people that have modified cars and have resulted in getting work done under warranty as the dealer was unbale to prove the issues were as a result of the modifications!

My view on the matter anyway...


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## Smoothie (Feb 10, 2010)

Well mine is is a MY09 car (just) and I have over a year warranty left on it - which I'm not really bothered about. I've not read anything on here that makes me concerned about remapping and with summer around the corner its on the cards.

I need to do a little more digging - I've read on here that Superchips are pretty good and there is a mobile guy in the Manchester area and they only charge £499 but I'm a sceptic - don't they need a rolling road for this sort of thing? My other option is at AwsomeGTI - £600ish for an APR remap. So what is the difference between the two?


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## jamiekip (Nov 12, 2006)

Superchips and Bluefin are slightly different.
Bluefin out of the two is probably the way to go, it'll cost more, but they basically send you the controller, you stick it in the port and copy your ecu. Hook it up to your computer, email to superchips and they email you back the map for your car, you then load it up with the controller.
Superchips map is just static on your ecu... that's my understanding anyway.

I have no knowledge of APR products sorry.

Revo and GIAC appear to be the most regarded for VAG


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## DTTN (May 17, 2010)

Hi everyone, call me thick ( or slightly drunk lol ) but i'm kind of getting confused by the varying comments and opinions.

Could someone tell me if i get my brand new TT re-mapped will Audi check for it or instantly know every time i send it in for a simple service???
I'm hugely interested in the shark performance re-map that i've seen on the TT owners club website. Mainly due to the association between the two even though that's not the biggest gains i've seen offered, and also because i really like the look of that STS self tuning system due to the scope to have a fiddle and more importantly because of the built in immobiliser that stops you driving it even if you have the key.
Getting a re-map was, due to the seemingly mis-conception that it was undetectable, my first priority but this thread has made me a little apprehensive to say the least.
Many thanks for your replies DTTN


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## Taipei-TT (Apr 6, 2009)

jamiekip said:


> With regards dealers and warranties, I think this very much depends on your dealer. Even if they did flag an issue they would HAVE to prove it was as a result of the remap that caused any problem in order to void the claim. This is hard for them to do and In know of several people that have modified cars and have resulted in getting work done under warranty as the dealer was unbale to prove the issues were as a result of the modifications!
> 
> My view on the matter anyway...


Jamiekip, I was in complete agreement with you up to hear. I agree that high quality maps used correctly will not cause additional problems. However, things can, do, and will go wrong for some people no matter what. And thus...the warranty is there to fix things.

Audi does not need to prove the map did anything. They only need to prove the map was there. Now, if the programs are clever enough to reduce the flash count, that will go along way to keeping things on the down low.

Some dealers will look the other way on re-maps and still do the work under warranty. But Audi is under no obligation at all to prove the re-map did anything. Once they show it's there...it's pretty much free game for them to disallow anything.

For instance...imagine something goes wrong with the brake system. Audi could argue, well, the increased power from the re-map but extra strain on the braking system, causing the failure. And this is not necessarily bs...note the differences between TT, TTS, and TTRS braking systems.

In Taiwan, Audi Taiwan, a wholly owned subsidiary of Audi AG, denied a friend of mine warranty coverage on his EPS system. The reason? He installed coilovers. Audi Taiwan argued that coilovers affected the steering geometry (which is true) which contributed to the failure of the EPS unit (I doubt it..but). It cost him almost $3000 to fix it...those are some mucho expensive coilovers!!

Bottom line remains: Re-Map your car and you are playing with fire in terms of warranty service.


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## jamiekip (Nov 12, 2006)

Taipei-TT said:


> Jamiekip, I was in complete agreement with you up to hear. I agree that high quality maps used correctly will not cause additional problems. However, things can, do, and will go wrong for some people no matter what. And thus...the warranty is there to fix things.
> 
> Audi does not need to prove the map did anything. They only need to prove the map was there. Now, if the programs are clever enough to reduce the flash count, that will go along way to keeping things on the down low.
> 
> ...


I guess that's just the difference in our markets then Taipei. If Audi own the Taiwan dealer network, and they issue a note advising modified cars are void of warranty then that is what they will do. 
In the UK the dealers are franchised, and Audi pays them to do approved warranty work, so if the dealer decides not to mention the mod's to Audi to get approval to do a warranty job in order to get the work and get paid, then so be it....
I know people who have had heavily modified cars on coilovers, aftermarket wheels, exhaust and CAI who have had an issue, the dealer tried to argue they can't do it as the car is modified. These people have pushed back and said prove the mod's caused this issue? They ended up getting the work done. So I'm only relaying the experiences I know about.
I did say, it very much depends on the dealers attitudes on modifications...


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## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

@DTTN,

Ben Wardle, who writes the maps for Shark Performance is a very pleasant chap to talk these things through with. When my TDI gets it's remap, it will be with Shark Performance. The STS unit is used by several remappers under different names but Sharks maps are widely known to be clutch-friendly and torquey at the top-end. Other people to look at are P-torque in Wolverhampton and JabbaSport in Peterborough. P-torque do a 2wd rolling road run before and after every remap for a wallet friendly £275 and JabbaSport can do a custom map on their rolling road (4WD) for a shade under £400.


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## Smoothie (Feb 10, 2010)

So I wonder why the APR remap is £600 at AwsomeGTI and a Superchips one is only £400 from another local dealer.


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## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

Smoothie said:


> So I wonder why the APR remap is £600 at AwsomeGTI and a Superchips one is only £400 from another local dealer.


As far as I'm aware Awesome are agents for APR and they pretty much make a custom map on the rolling road while you wait. The Shark and P-torque maps are generic so they just have to load the new software on and away you go.

That doesn't explain Superchips are so expensive for what is basically a generic remap. They do sell insurance to go with the remap though so if anything goes pop the insurance should pay for it.


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## Smoothie (Feb 10, 2010)

wja96 said:


> Smoothie said:
> 
> 
> > So I wonder why the APR remap is £600 at AwsomeGTI and a Superchips one is only £400 from another local dealer.
> ...


 I kept thinking, "how can they just load a map onto the car - surely each car is slightly different" So that explains it a bit more. Cheers


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## jamiekip (Nov 12, 2006)

Smoothie said:


> I kept thinking, "how can they just load a map onto the car - surely each car is slightly different" So that explains it a bit more. Cheers


Each car is different... but do you think the manufacturers go to the lengths of loading bespoke software on to every car rolling of the production line?
Bespoke software is fine, it's tried and trusted and within the cars tolerances.
My concern with purely bespoke software is that they try to give the car to much. Yeah, great headline figures, but what is it doing to the car???
As I have said all along - go with tried and tested stuff...


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## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

jamiekip said:


> My concern with purely bespoke software is that they try to give the car to much. Yeah, great headline figures, but what is it doing to the car??? As I have said all along - go with tried and tested stuff...


The BEST thing about custom remaps is they can give you exactly what you want. There was a JabbaSport remap on a Skoda Fabia vRS where the car had 300lb/ft of torque from 1000rpm all the way to 4000rpm but only 130bhp (exactly the same as standard) and it was quick and super-economical and utterly reliable except it was very hard on clutches.

The original SuperChips PD130 remap I had was extreme in that you got everything between 2000 and 3000rpm and it was basically stock everywhere else so it was VERY impressive initially, but actually carp to live with, so that was replaced with a custom map that pulled hard all the way to 4500rpm (diesel remember) and was a much better proposition day-to-day.

So, in my opinion a generic remap is great but with a custom map you can get what you want, exactly.
A _*decent*_ tuner will not map the car so hard it will damage it.


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## rmwd (Feb 13, 2007)

Anyone used or heard anything about these people?
http://www.black-code.co.uk/index.html
They claim undetectable software and issue a warranty aaginst damage or going head to head with Audi.
They also claim to be one of the biggest ECU remappers but I've not seen their name on this forum.

Cheers,
RMWD


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## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

rmwd said:


> Anyone used or heard anything about these people?
> http://www.black-code.co.uk/index.html
> They claim undetectable software and issue a warranty aaginst damage or going head to head with Audi.
> They also claim to be one of the biggest ECU remappers but I've not seen their name on this forum.
> ...


Nope, never heard of them and all I get if I google them is a load of threads on vehicle forums from delighted owners posting to say how they can now outperform very fast things and their car now actually fills up petrol stations it's so fuel efficient. In short, I'd say it's a bunch of new guys in vans trying to spoof a reputation in s hurry and doing a bad job of it.


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