# Think I'll have to cancel my MK II order...



## TomA (Aug 24, 2005)

It's not like it's a surprise but I have been offered only Â£21k in part ex for my qS which is in mint condition, Avus/Black, 55 plate, 8,400 miles, cup-holders and BOSE. The dealer said he would then sell it for Â£24k on his Audi forecourt. Cheeky sod.

The list price back in September was Â£30,070.00 for this car! Ooof.

Gotta hurt. Can raise some more cash and/or sell it privately (hassle) but I'm thinking that this kind of depreciation hurts too much to change. 

Any bright ideas before I get my Â£1k deposit back? :?


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

Selling privately is NOT hassle. Try it first.


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## saint (Dec 6, 2002)

Think twice when buying a new car! To go over the same old chesnut again - I lost 13k from new on a 14 month old V6 DSG (usual jibes of who wants a dsg anyway were lobbed in my direction). It's sore to have a loss like that in such a short period of time - but that's cars for you - they are certainly not investments. It's just the current TT market.


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## BAMTT (Feb 22, 2004)

TomA said:


> It's not like it's a surprise but I have been offered only Â£21k in part ex for my qS which is in mint condition, Avus/Black, 55 plate, 8,400 miles, cup-holders and BOSE. The dealer said he would then sell it for Â£24k on his Audi forecourt. Cheeky sod.
> 
> The list price back in September was Â£30,070.00 for this car! Ooof.
> 
> ...


Sorry to say this TomA but i think the stealer is being optimistic at 24k in 5 months time


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## TomA (Aug 24, 2005)

BAMTT said:


> TomA said:
> 
> 
> > It's not like it's a surprise but I have been offered only Â£21k in part ex for my qS which is in mint condition, Avus/Black, 55 plate, 8,400 miles, cup-holders and BOSE. The dealer said he would then sell it for Â£24k on his Audi forecourt. Cheeky sod.
> ...


Sorry, these valuations are for now... Would have to take something else to drive in the meantime! :lol: :evil:


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

List price may have been Â£30k on that car, but the dealers were shifting them around the Â£26k mark, IIRC... so it was an already discounted, run-out model, I'm afraid.

Â£24k would actually look rather expensive under the circumstances.

Keep it or take the hit


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## genocidalduck (May 19, 2005)

Ouch. But that doesnt surprise me. I would have actually think they would have offered you less. I know with mine they will as its older.

If you do buy the MKII it's value wont drop like a stone. If its as popular as the MKI was.

Tom maybe an idea jut to check what Harold Wood say. When ive swapped mine in to get a new one. Theve given me a reasonable price for my old ones. Both times ive seen the car on the fourcourt for Â£500 more than what they gave me.


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## DXN (May 18, 2002)

TomA said:


> It's not like it's a surprise but I have been offered only Â£21k in part ex for my qS which is in mint condition, Avus/Black, 55 plate, 8,400 miles, cup-holders and BOSE. The dealer said he would then sell it for Â£24k on his Audi forecourt. Cheeky sod.
> 
> The list price back in September was Â£30,070.00 for this car! Ooof.
> 
> ...


The reality is that a dealer will be looking to get a 3K profit on any car they turn over on the forecourt.

The residual is poor on a new car like you have but turn it around, if you go to a dealer with 25K in your pocket and see a mark 1 TT for 24K and a new model TT for 28 K which would you want.?

Dealers dont want high priced second hand mark1 on the forecourt gathering dust and poor profit.

My advice
Keep the QS for 3 years
Wait for the next generation of models released in the mark 2 and get one of those 2008 ish
or take the hit


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## DonaldC (May 7, 2002)

Hi Tom,

I agree with the above posts. Keep the car and enjoy it for another couple of years and then sell it privately. You'll have a better choice of engines and options by that time and possibly some discounts (at least on the internet).

Donald


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## TomA (Aug 24, 2005)

genocidalduck said:


> Tom maybe an idea jut to check what Harold Wood say. When ive swapped mine in to get a new one. Theve given me a reasonable price for my old ones. Both times ive seen the car on the fourcourt for Â£500 more than what they gave me.


Thanks Jamie, that sounds like an option... They love you at HW!

Failing that I'll keep the qS. It is, afterall, an awesome car and I've only had it for 6 months! Greed is a terrible thing. :x :lol:


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## genocidalduck (May 19, 2005)

TomA said:


> genocidalduck said:
> 
> 
> > Tom maybe an idea jut to check what Harold Wood say. When ive swapped mine in to get a new one. Theve given me a reasonable price for my old ones. Both times ive seen the car on the fourcourt for Â£500 more than what they gave me.
> ...


It's not greed it's just being a boy that wants al the toys


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

I've not been given a trade in price - they simply said its too soon to do so. I must admit i dont like the postion. They are winning hand over fist. They give you crap trade-ins and then charge the earth with no discount for the new models.

I guess the real answer is not to buy, but its hard to do that.

How about the FWD model? that will only cost you a few k, then trade up from that to a higher model (no offence ment to anyone wanting a FWD version) as the MKII prices wont drop much until they start hitting the 2nd hand market in numbers (2years or so).


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## TomA (Aug 24, 2005)

Toshiba said:


> How about the FWD model? that will only cost you a few k, then trade up from that to a higher model (no offence ment to anyone wanting a FWD version) as the MKII prices wont drop much until they start hitting the 2nd hand market in numbers (2years or so).


Good suggestion mate but tbh would rather wait than buy a WWD car. Yes, I know quattro is more often WWD but at least RWD can kick in!


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## Karcsi (Mar 6, 2003)

http://atsearch.autotrader.co.uk/WW...urce=0&photo=1&sort=5&ukcarsearch_full=SEARCH

There seems to a very wide spread of prices for the qs. You have more than 6 months to sell it. Advertise it privately for a middle / high price. Whether they were heavily discounted new or not, that's not strictly relevant any more. You cannot get them new, it was a (comparatively) limited run, so prices may strengthen over the coming months. It is *the* TT to go for secondhand, after all.


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

TomA said:


> Toshiba said:
> 
> 
> > How about the FWD model? that will only cost you a few k, then trade up from that to a higher model (no offence ment to anyone wanting a FWD version) as the MKII prices wont drop much until they start hitting the 2nd hand market in numbers (2years or so).
> ...


I know how you feel, we (me and the wife) spoke about it last night and im not sure its worth what they are asking for it. My orders in, however i cant choose a colour and the Â£'s is bugging me.


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

Karcsi said:


> http://atsearch.autotrader.co.uk/WW...urce=0&photo=1&sort=5&ukcarsearch_full=SEARCH
> 
> There seems to a very wide spread of prices for the qs. You have more than 6 months to sell it. Advertise it privately for a middle / high price. Whether they were heavily discounted new or not, that's not strictly relevant any more. You cannot get them new, it was a (comparatively) limited run, so prices may strengthen over the coming months. It is *the* TT to go for secondhand, after all.


Of course it is relevant... It shows what the true value was. Had Audi been able to flog them at list, they would have done so - but there were regular examples of huge discounts to be had. That alone is a pointer that second hand values were going to be weak.

I know it sounds callous, but its hard to understand why someone would buy a qS, knowing they were also looking to buy a MKII, then being surprised at the amount of money it was going to cost them to change. TT prices have been going west for 18+ months now... what made you think they were going to do a sudden upturn, right when most people predicted the biggest slide? :?


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

Maybe the prospect of a the ultimate or purest incarnation of the TT was a magnet. Or maybe, like me, he thought the qS would sell like hot cakes and demand would be very high.

The problem with qS or this is my take on it, is that while ever the dealers are knocking them out at a loss, us owners dont stand a chance of a real price. Audi simply made too many and the pre-registration (engine co) issue has made it worse.


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

Toshiba said:


> Maybe the prospect of a the ultimate or purest incarnation of the TT was a magnet. Or maybe, like me, he thought the qS would sell like hot cakes and demand would be very high.
> 
> The problem with qS or this is my take on it, is that while ever the dealers are knocking them out at a loss, us owners dont stand a chance of a real price. Audi simply made too many and the pre-registration (engine co) issue has made it worse.


So you'd trust Audi with ANOTHER Â£30k of your money?

I did once say "NO MORE AUDI" after all the problems I had in the past, but at the end of the day, there wasn't any direct competition for the S4 Avant (no M3 Touring, for instance) so I was pretty stuck with going back, or else end up with a different car which didn't foot the bill quite so well.

Maybe its the same for you guys and the TT MKII?

Maybe I'll end up with an R8 next year?

But if you feel strongly enough, you need to vote with your feet. :?


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## sico (Feb 6, 2003)

jampott said:


> Toshiba said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe the prospect of a the ultimate or purest incarnation of the TT was a magnet. Or maybe, like me, he thought the qS would sell like hot cakes and demand would be very high.
> ...


As much as Audi customer service is a pile of cr*p they dont dictate the second hand value and the TT is still relitivley good in terms of depreciation when compared against most cars. So Im not sure if I would blame them and vote with my feet for that reason.

I would vote due to the terrible dealerships charging more that lawyers per hour to fix your car.

Suprised their workmen dont wear suits, they certainly wouldnt get them dirty the amount of work they do! :lol:


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## genocidalduck (May 19, 2005)

I knew when i bought the QS that if i wanted the MKII(At the time i did. If i liked it) i would be bent over and shafted like a gooden


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## philnotts (Mar 21, 2006)

personally i would keep your QS for another year or so, before jumping for the MK11. At least that way there may be more choice and Audi would of ironed out all the faults with the new model! What car dont loose value at the end of the day!


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

Tim,

OK, so letâ€™s come back to the MKII then. If I donâ€™t get it at 33k what can you get??

Nissan, same issues but not as many about - however ageing car that will be coming up for replacement one would have thought soon - again I donâ€™t know im guessing.

Z4 - donâ€™t want a soft-top and itâ€™s a pure two seater.

Z4 Coupe - not on the waiting list so it would be ages before I could get one.

RX8 - NO

MX5 - NO

Cayman, im not paying 50k regardless of IF I could afford one and im not saying either way.

Lotus - too hard core

911 - Would mean 2nd hand, and donâ€™t want 2nd hand - plus I have to fit within some opt out rules for company car and this would not be deemed to 'reflect the image of the company' Im not sure it would me min 25mpg rule either.

Boxter - two seater, no

M3 - no thanks, not my sort of thing

S4/RS4 - no thanks, not my sort of thing

Realistic options??? I canâ€™t see many if im honest. I could trade in the qS and get a Mondeo and pocket the money in the qS, drive it for 2 years, get another one etc etc. Not very exciting â€" no offence intended to drivers of family cars.


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## genocidalduck (May 19, 2005)

Tosh what about a Focus ST


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## Leg (Jan 11, 2006)

Dare I mention the Brera? Thats gonna get shot down in flames eh lol.

Apart from the fact it will probably burst into flames on the way out of the showroom, or fall to bits, or both.


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## genocidalduck (May 19, 2005)

Leg said:


> Dare I mention the Brera? Thats gonna get shot down in flames eh lol.
> 
> Apart from the fact it will probably burst into flames on the way out of the showroom, or fall to bits, or both.


But it is one good looking car


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

Toshiba said:


> Tim,
> 
> OK, so letâ€™s come back to the MKII then. If I donâ€™t get it at 33k what can you get??
> 
> ...


The 350z has JUST been facelifted (and the engine tweaked up to 296bhp) and would always be in the running for me, vs a TT Coupe - but that's just MHO at the end of the day. Its a marmite car, I think, whereas the TT seems to have more of a mass appeal.

Or just keep the qS. No harm in that - if it truly IS the best of the MKI models, it should prove a good purchase for some time to come.

Having said that, it would be tempting to take the hit and get the MKII - but the gamble would be that you wouldn't lose additional money on THAT, and would be able to (and would want to) resell on without much depreciation after 18 months. Sure, that was originally possible with the MKI, but I reckon the MKII will have a much more limited impact, as it launches into a mature market. If the gamble pays off, you take the hit now and have nearly cost free motoring for 12 months. If the gamble DOESN'T pay off, you get hit twice...

It'll boil down to exactly how much people want the MKII, and how much they can afford to lose at the end of the day.

Audi *DO* control the price of the 2nd hand market to some degree. It is their cutting of new prices, and their artificially low trade-ins which are forcing people's hands - particularly with the newer cars. For anyone to suggest that Audi don't have SOME degree of control of that is probably a little naive, I'm afraid.

With a Â£20k car, people want to pay for the security of buying from a dealer, which means private sales (whilst securing the best money) are probably a rarity. Instead, people are virtually giving them away at trade-in, as their hand is forced. Audi are rubbing their hands with glee at the thought of the qS owners who want the next "best thing"... :roll:

That's business, folks...


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

sico said:


> jampott said:
> 
> 
> > Toshiba said:
> ...


See my previous post... Audi do, indeed, have a large hand in dictating second hand values, particularly of the newer models, as they are approached at trade-in time, either by the customer, or the dealer of the "other marque" which the customer is trading in with.

They also control the price in the 2nd hand market by controlling the supply of new cars (over produced for the UK recently?) and by the price they sell new cars at.

Simple economics at work... :wink:


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

I agree, they (Audi) do control the market and my bottom is very sore from the pounding they have given/ are givening (in terms of trade-in values for used TT's).

I didnt do too bad on the silver qS we got Â£23850 on a trade in. (dealer did the usual its silver, not many people want silver due to the amount of cars in that colour, and its got the wrong options on etc etc however we'll do you a favour and take it off your hands) but thats still a loss of 3k in 9 or so months.

I hate cars.


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## TomA (Aug 24, 2005)

Don't really want to get in to justifying what I've spent my money on and why because, of course, I've gone with my heart rather than my brain in the past... These things happen and I'm prepared to be pragmatic about it now and accept the hit.

My point was that I was about to suffer a far greater hit than I had anticipated. However....

Update from Audi dealer - Â£23k - they are starting to play ball. More like they saw my reaction to their meagre Â£21k offer and realised I was off!


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

TomA said:


> Don't really want to get in to justifying what I've spent my money on and why because, of course, I've gone with my heart rather than my brain in the past... These things happen and I'm prepared to be pragmatic about it now and accept the hit.
> 
> My point was that I was about to suffer a far greater hit than I had anticipated. However....
> 
> Update from Audi dealer - Â£23k - they are starting to play ball. More like they saw my reaction to their meagre Â£21k offer and realised I was off!


I got Â£23850, so thats a target for them to beat, if that helps.


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## dubbers (Jul 30, 2005)

jampott said:


> Audi *DO* control the price of the 2nd hand market to some degree. It is their cutting of new prices, and their artificially low trade-ins which are forcing people's hands - particularly with the newer cars. For anyone to suggest that Audi don't have SOME degree of control of that is probably a little naive, I'm afraid.


Like other premium car brands, I would suggest that Audi would prefer greater control of their dealer network. Audi UK dont cut prices at the point of sale, the sales people and dealer principles do. It is those dealer staff who undermine long term residuals in this car market as they strive to meet their <arguably> selfish monthly sales targets. In a competitive market for cars and finance the dealer sales staff have been adjusting their stance for at least 12 months or more. Evidence of which has been noted here on TTF of the cracking deals achieved for new car sales.

I'd also agree with the advice to keep hold of the qS for a few years. It may well define a niche market when it reaches a certain 2nd hand price and then its value could stabilise.


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## TomA (Aug 24, 2005)

Thanks for the advice Dubbers... Makes sense.

I'm at Â£23k part ex now and rising so it isn't all over just yet! Will keep pushing.


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

dubbers said:


> jampott said:
> 
> 
> > Audi *DO* control the price of the 2nd hand market to some degree. It is their cutting of new prices, and their artificially low trade-ins which are forcing people's hands - particularly with the newer cars. For anyone to suggest that Audi don't have SOME degree of control of that is probably a little naive, I'm afraid.
> ...


True, but Audi *did* once shaft a large number of its customers by cutting the price across the range by about 10% shortly after release. Plus, they were also responsible for what we now refer to as the "S-Line fiasco" (producing a LTD edition to get the punters in, then essentially making that a standard spec)...

They also manipulate things by saying "no manual v6", then releasing one... :roll:


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## dubbers (Jul 30, 2005)

jampott said:


> True, but Audi *did* once shaft a large number of its customers by cutting the price across the range by about 10% shortly after release.


Did that conicide with the 1999 OFT/MMC inquiry into price fixing in the UK car market?

I'd wager that 10% wasn't taken from Audi UK/Audi GmbH margins.

http://www.audi.co.uk/company/pressrelease.jsp?id=588&backPage=pressarchive


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## dubbers (Jul 30, 2005)

This is from Audi's 2005 year end report - a significant change in volumes of TTC and TTR compared with 2004.


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## ratty (May 18, 2004)

Toshiba said:


> TomA said:
> 
> 
> > Don't really want to get in to justifying what I've spent my money on and why because, of course, I've gone with my heart rather than my brain in the past... These things happen and I'm prepared to be pragmatic about it now and accept the hit.
> ...


What did you trade against Tosh to get the Â£23850 ? I tried my dealer before selling my QS privately, I was very lucky and found a cash buyer but of course I still took a hit. Another problem now is that I am unlikely to order the Mk2 before early next year to pick up some of the options I want (I would also prefer a 2.0 Quattro) and I really miss the TT. I think maybe I perhaps was too hasty selling the QS in readiness for the Mk2. Still the money's in the bank ready..... :roll:


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

TomA said:


> It's not like it's a surprise but I have been offered only Â£21k in part ex for my qS which is in mint condition, Avus/Black, 55 plate, 8,400 miles, cup-holders and BOSE. The dealer said he would then sell it for Â£24k on his Audi forecourt. Cheeky sod.
> 
> The list price back in September was Â£30,070.00 for this car! Ooof.
> 
> ...


With creative financing (ie a large balloon) you could have bought and run a 997s for that sort of money over that period. My colleague recently sold his 997S cab back to dealer. He lost just Â£2-3K on a Â£70K car in just over 6 months. But of course demand is at it's peak for the 997 and timing is important.

But take some consolation, I lost Â£9K on my TT over 10 months from 1999 to 2000, when demand was still sky high. So high Audi dropped the list price by Â£5K, impacting residuals overnight. That hurt.

Repeat this mantra, "I could have run a Porsche 997 for less than a TT. I could have run a Porsche 997S for ...." and think very carefully about doing the same with a MK II TT.

What if Audi drop the price by say another Â£5K to stimulate demand or to compete better, when the MK ii TT fails to sell as well as the MKi TT - which is a distinct possibility for a mass market car?

Hang on to it for now.

Wait till they test the FWD MKii against the Golf V Gti...


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## Dotti (Mar 9, 2003)

Just go to a dealer and get a group buy you lot :wink:


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

Do you think we are EVERY going to come to a conclusion on the colour or the spec - i think not.


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## Dotti (Mar 9, 2003)

Toshy, you mean YOUR colour and YOUR spec :wink:


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

Ive given in and just told the dealer to suprise me.


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## Dotti (Mar 9, 2003)

... I'll help you make up your mind if you want but it will cost you a cadburys cream egg or six  .


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

Mine - you're not having them.


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## TomA (Aug 24, 2005)

Update - got my deposit back now from Audi... Had enough mucking about over this. It's not to be this time around.

I'm repeating that mantra garyc! :lol: :wink:


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## Karcsi (Mar 6, 2003)

Â£23k not enough to make the sums work? That's a shame.

I'm wondering about garyc's mantra. I'd prefer to wait, save the money, buy in cash, and do without lining the pockets of a finance company / bank. That might take 5+ years (for a 997/998/999), but so be it. It's no fun getting everything all at once. OK, that part is fun. But how do you top it? "Slowly slowly catchy monkey" is my mantra. Although, I don't quite know why I need a monkey.


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## TomA (Aug 24, 2005)

The sums _will _work at Â£23k but I'm still not happy with that kind of depreciation so I am sitting tight. The qS is very nice after all! 8)


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

Sorry to hear that, You have however got to do whats best and i agree the loss is high. Ive got the same issue. I didnt pay full list on either of my qS's but if i had i would be mighty upset.


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## The Silver Surfer (May 14, 2002)

Karcsi said:


> Â£23k not enough to make the sums work? That's a shame.
> 
> I'm wondering about garyc's mantra. I'd prefer to wait, save the money, buy in cash, and do without lining the pockets of a finance company / bank. That might take 5+ years (for a 997/998/999), but so be it. It's no fun getting everything all at once. OK, that part is fun. But how do you top it? "Slowly slowly catchy monkey" is my mantra. Although, I don't quite know why I need a monkey.


LOL :lol: Great minds think alike. I've been fortunate enough not to have had to ever take out finance to buy a car. I'd rather wait until I can afford to buy it outright. I'm hoping the residuals on 997's crash anytime soon. :lol: :wink:


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## Karcsi (Mar 6, 2003)

TomA said:


> The sums _will _work at Â£23k but I'm still not happy with that kind of depreciation so I am sitting tight. The qS is very nice after all! 8)


Agree with you there. Smart choice. I don't think I would be bothering with a MKII if I were already driving a TT - especially so if I had only recently bought it new.

I wouldn't really be bothering with the MKII if I didn't think that residuals will be strong for the first year - I did vow never to buy new again! After a year I'll see whether I love it enough to keep it, move onto something bigger and better, or had enough of high fuel bills to move back to diesel. I think it may be the last option.


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## Dotti (Mar 9, 2003)

Roll on diesel TT


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## Karcsi (Mar 6, 2003)

Hmm. 3.0 litres, 233PS and 450NM torque. Lovely.


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## Dotti (Mar 9, 2003)




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## ag (Sep 12, 2002)

I'm not entirely convinced that residuals for the MK2 will be that good. In the first instance I doubt that there will be many conquest sales as the current model already massively outsells its competitors. We will probably end up with the New Beetle scenario where the people who really wanted one bought them in the first year and virtually all subsequent new sales were to current Beetle owners upgrading. The TT became a victim of its own success, one of its major selling points was residuals, which went west 18months ago. Demand for the MK2 will be residual driven again, but I would doubt if it will be the success story of the MK1. Late model MK1s will start to take a real hit now as the majority of potential MK2 purchasers will be selling late MK1s!

On the subject of residuals, I recently sold my 225TTC for Â£12k. The guy got a bargain, but I still only lost Â£12k on it from new over 5 years and 5 months! To mitigate your losses you need to buy well and at the right time and get out at the right time. I was a bit slow to get out and the last 18months probably cost more than the first 18 months, but it was still cheap motoring.


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