# Stage 1 Remap TT vs Standard TTS



## CWJ (Aug 24, 2010)

Hi Everyone

Out of interest does anyone know how a stage 1 remapped TT (250bhp) would perform against a standard TTS? The latter is obviously slightly more powerful but does have the extra weight and drivetrain losses due to four wheeldrive.

Anyone had any first hand experience?

Carl


----------



## jon345 (Feb 7, 2009)

CWJ said:


> Hi Everyone
> 
> Out of interest does anyone know how a stage 1 remapped TT (250bhp) would perform against a standard TTS? The latter is obviously slightly more powerful but does have the extra weight and drivetrain losses due to four wheeldrive.
> 
> ...


Off the lights TTS will win if your talking a FWD(standard model).

On the move it is close..however once you hit the higher gears being 5th and 6th the TTS will pull more..from my personal experience..

Every map is different also..some maps have a stronger mid.!!.some mappers just increase all power to the earlier gears..!! so lots of factors.


----------



## cheechy (Nov 8, 2006)

jon345 said:


> CWJ said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Everyone
> ...


Having had both I can safely say that in dry conditions a remapped v's non-mapped TTS the TT would be a quicker car. Maybe not off the line but the TT would catch up quickly as the power is available from lower down. The power to weight would make the cars the same, if not the TT may have a better power/weight ratio.

A remapped TTS v's TT - that's a different story of course :wink:


----------



## CWJ (Aug 24, 2010)

Thanks for that Cheechy. The reason I asked is I have a remapped TT and had a short but convincing run on the highway (from about 30mph) against a TTS. I also got the impression that I had the faster car but then looked at the power stats etc and was less convinced.

A remapped TTS must fly.....


----------



## Maila (May 4, 2008)

CWJ said:


> Thanks for that Cheechy. The reason I asked is I have a remapped TT and had a short but convincing run on the highway (from about 30mph) against a TTS. I also got the impression that I had the faster car but then looked at the power stats etc and was less convinced.
> 
> A remapped TTS must fly.....


What about Stage 3 2.0T TT or Remapped TTRS :lol:


----------



## steeve (Jul 8, 2010)

I would guess about the same, power to weight ratio is what counts mostly. However, the TTS has to have a better basic spec, 4WD so its going to be a better safer car in inclement conditions, better suspension (?) better brakes, plus for another £500 you can have a stage 1 remap. Then its going to be a different story, as well as the TTS having a stronger engine.

Your choice, but I know which way I'd go.
Also have you ever not gone for the model (or colour) you really wanted, probably because it was available or it saved threepence. Then when you see one you think "I wish I'd gone for one of those"


----------



## Arne (Dec 13, 2006)

Here you can see some in gears acceleration times of an original TT and remapped TT, and compare that to an original S3 and also the times from a remapped S3 (unfortunately they have not made a remap for the TTS....).

From this you can see that a remapped TT has more or less identical in gear acceleration times as an original S3.

Since an original TTS is (rather) quicker than a S3, I would say that an original TTS should still be quicker than a stage 1 remapped TT - also after they have gotten up in speed.

TT: http://en.bsr.se/products/t921/

S3: http://en.bsr.se/products/t960/

The tests are done using the exact same methods to ensure comparable results. More can be read about that here:

http://en.bsr.se/faq/258/

ps: remember that acceleration is not only about max power and weight. What is more important than max power is the aerea under the power graph in the rpm range that you are using. Short peak power is actually worth very little in terms of practical acceleration.

Look at the graphs and you can clearly see the advantage that the S3 has. It looses out on higher weight, but the TTS is a lot lighter than the S3....

And a good saying is this: "BHP sells cars, torque winn races" - and the same is also important regarding acceleration, where the bigger K04 turbo has an advantage over the smaller K03.


----------



## mrdemon (Apr 20, 2005)

quote
"And a good saying is this: "BHP sells cars, torque winn races" "

good but wrong  if you have no Bhp you'r going nowhere fast you always need the horse's

I don't get where people say such tosh :lol:

my TTRS 40-60 mph 1.7 seconds 

2l tt tuned 80 to140 kmh 6.6 down from 7.6 from that site woopee

my TTRS 80 -140 km/h 3.6 seconds lol if you want a faster car always buy the next model up and then tune that.

Pointless tuning base model cars imho.


----------



## durkadurka (Mar 26, 2010)

Arne said:


> And a good saying is this: "BHP sells cars, torque winn races" - and the same is also important regarding acceleration, where the bigger K04 turbo has an advantage over the smaller K03.


That's not a good saying at all.
What you want is a car with high BHP and high torque. This means the car will have a lot of torque into the high revs.
If a car has massive torque but not a lot of BHP, it just means you have a lot of torque low down, less in midrange and f all in the high revs.


----------



## bigsyd (Jul 9, 2008)

durkadurka said:


> Arne said:
> 
> 
> > And a good saying is this: "BHP sells cars, torque winn races" - and the same is also important regarding acceleration, where the bigger K04 turbo has an advantage over the smaller K03.
> ...


I have asked this question so many times but got no answer ( what happens if a car has hi torque and lo bhp)
Cheers m8

Just my comment
TTS standard.... It's ok
TTS with revo stage 1 map.... Fooook me 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Arne (Dec 13, 2006)

Arne said:


> And a good saying is this: "BHP sells cars, torque winn races" - and the same is also important regarding acceleration.


That statement above was given by an international racedriver (a few times world champion - just can't remember his name) :wink:

And where have I written that bhp has nothing to do with it? Some of you read a bit too much (or too little?) in that statment :roll:

Offcourse BHP is important, but too many focus too much on peak BHP power alone - which is worth nothing if you don't consider it together with torque AND how the power graphs looks / how the power (both BHP AND torque) is delivered in the usable rpm range.

It's not that difficult to understand :wink:


----------



## Arne (Dec 13, 2006)

bigsyd said:


> I have asked this question so many times but got no answer ( what happens if a car has hi torque and lo bhp)
> Cheers m8


It is strong and slow - and some weight +/- will not effect acceleration very much.

And if it has high bhp and lo torque:

It is weak and can only be fast if it is extremely light. Some weight +/- will have everything to say regarding changes in acceleration :wink:


----------



## Arne (Dec 13, 2006)

mrdemon said:


> 2l tt tuned 80 to140 kmh 6.6 down from 7.6 from that site woopee
> 
> my TTRS 80 -140 km/h 3.6 seconds lol if you want a faster car always buy the next model up and then tune that.
> 
> Pointless tuning base model cars imho.


From the same site an original TTRS does 80 - 140 km/h in 5.9 sec.
A tuned TTRS does it in 5.2 sec...

Here: http://en.bsr.se/products/t1782/

And you say yours do it in 3.6 sec.... ? Seems a bit optimistic, doesn't it :wink:

I think you should compare apples with apples - and not with peaches. The measured data is for acceleration in 4. gear. I bet you used 3. (and perhaps 4. if 3. does not take it all the way to 140)? It's not really comparative then - is it?

As you can see, the differenses are not that much - and no where near what you think.

Imho - one tunes the model ones have :wink:


----------



## mrdemon (Apr 20, 2005)

quote

"I have asked this question so many times but got no answer ( what happens if a car has hi torque and lo bhp)
Cheers m8"

have you driven a oil burner 

people always say they are quick, but in real life they just feel quick due to the torque.

BHP is key to going fast  the key is the TTRS makes peak at 5k revs and hold peak for 2k more revs.

So numbers are not the b and end all and hence why a 420BHp can keep up with much expensive cars which only make peak BHp at max revs.


----------



## mrdemon (Apr 20, 2005)

quote

"And you say yours do it in 3.6 sec.... ? Seems a bit optimistic, doesn't it "

nope I have a Vbox so the same as what the mags use to test, but yes I was in the correct gear lol ie 3rd and was 1 up.

update
ok I DO have a 4th gear time for 80-140km/h with a vbox it's still super car fast at 4.62 seconds 8)

and my test route is slighty uphill and done at about 18oC, now it's colder and if I can find a flat secton to easly test I will do faster times again.

Tuned TTRS are very very fast cars, I don't care how far you go with a standard TT 2.0l TFSi, you don't have a hope
my in gear times are hyper car fast,not super car fast 

better off selling your 2.0l and with your tuning money buying a 2nd hand TTS and chipping that.
Base model tuning has always been a no no for me and money down the drain when you can buy factory faster cars which will hold resale better and keep warranty.


----------



## BLinky (Jul 3, 2009)

fast


----------



## Arne (Dec 13, 2006)

mrdemon said:


> quote
> 
> "And you say yours do it in 3.6 sec.... ? Seems a bit optimistic, doesn't it "
> 
> ...


 :wink: That is what I suspected.

4.62 seems realistic in 4. gear, since the BSR remap of the TTRS is rather "light" compared to what other tuners can deliver.

And there is no doubt that a remapped TTRS is super car fast


----------



## mrdemon (Apr 20, 2005)

I still cannot get over how fast it is


----------



## conneem (Nov 4, 2006)

Arne said:


> :wink: That is what I suspected.
> 
> 4.62 seems realistic in 4. gear, since the BSR remap of the TTRS is rather "light" compared to what other tuners can deliver.
> 
> And there is no doubt that a remapped TTRS is super car fast


Yeah BSR are very conservative with their remapped numbers.

Just for comparison 






I must get my hands on a Vbox some day though.


----------



## mrdemon (Apr 20, 2005)

100 to 160 was a bit slow :? you posted 6.5 seconds to do 38mph :?


----------



## conneem (Nov 4, 2006)

mrdemon said:


> 100 to 160 was a bit slow :? you posted 6.5 seconds to do 38mph :?


Standard TTRS takes 6s so it is not that slow


----------



## Arne (Dec 13, 2006)

conneem said:


> Arne said:
> 
> 
> > :wink: That is what I suspected.
> ...


I wish I had a Vbox as well :wink:

Did you see this one Conneem?


----------



## mrdemon (Apr 20, 2005)

"Standard TTRS takes 6s so it is not that slow "

That's 13% slower :? which is quite a lot. I would love to knock another 0.5 seconds off mine 

A tuned RS would be about 40% quicker in that range. so as you pointed out Just for comparison it's not even in the same ball park :wink:


----------



## conneem (Nov 4, 2006)

mrdemon said:


> "Standard TTRS takes 6s so it is not that slow "
> 
> That's 13% slower :? which is quite a lot. I would love to knock another 0.5 seconds off mine
> 
> A tuned RS would be about 40% quicker in that range. so as you pointed out Just for comparison it's not even in the same ball park :wink:


Here is vid comparing all three with a gauged timer. I had never put a proper timer on mine before, just estimated from the timer bar on the bottom. Of course this is only useful in comparing speedo times as the speedo's will be out a bit at higher speeds.

Not much difference but Arne's is noticeably quicker (S-Tronic probably help's by knocking .2s off during the change 

Nice sound change at the end 8)


----------



## Arne (Dec 13, 2006)

I must say that I am very surpriced of how quick the TTS got from just a stage 1 map


----------



## bigsyd (Jul 9, 2008)

Arne said:


> I must say that I am very surpriced of how quick the TTS got from just a stage 1 map


So was I m8 :- -

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mrdemon (Apr 20, 2005)

dsg saves 0.3 which is why it's a hard range to gauge cars v each other, if you mess the gear change up you can lose 0.5 second.
Chipped TTS are fast but they are still 100BHp off a tuned TTRS and 100ft/lb of torque down.

put a vbox on all 3 on the same bit of road it will not be close you need a lot of power to knock 0.5 second off.

but hence why I said don't tune a base car just buy a TTS it worls out cheaper in the long run and you get a much nicer car. :wink:


----------



## Arne (Dec 13, 2006)

The "problem" of buying a TTRS in Norway are the taxes. There are taxes on CO and bhp, so the price differense between a base TTS and base TTRS is aprox £ 43.000,- [smiley=bigcry.gif]


----------



## steeve (Jul 8, 2010)

Arne said:


> The "problem" of buying a TTRS in Norway are the taxes. There are taxes on CO and bhp, so the price differense between a base TTS and base TTRS is aprox £ 43.000,- [smiley=bigcry.gif]


I think I'd move and live some where less repressive.


----------



## hanzo (Apr 6, 2009)

conneem said:


> Arne said:
> 
> 
> > :wink: That is what I suspected.
> ...


Great vid !!!!!!
nice tune up!!

last time i checked i got 5.3 from 0-100 and mine is fwd - this was without my downpipe


----------



## Nick225TT (Oct 13, 2004)

bigsyd said:


> durkadurka said:
> 
> 
> > Arne said:
> ...


Think of electric cars like the Tesla, they have high torque, at low (zero) rpm and accelerate like a bullet. However, they have low BHP 120ish, so top speed just about creeps in three figures.


----------



## hanzo (Apr 6, 2009)

more hp = higher top speed

mainly this is because you are moving against gravity, and the faster you go the more power you need!!

hence the 1000+ Bugatti = +420kmh


----------



## drjam (Apr 7, 2006)

hanzo said:


> more hp = higher top speed
> 
> mainly this is because *you are moving against gravity*, and the faster you go the more power you need!!
> 
> hence the 1000+ Bugatti = +420kmh


What if you're driving downhill?


----------



## hanzo (Apr 6, 2009)

you would need onions, lots of them!!


----------



## steeve (Jul 8, 2010)

hanzo said:


> more hp = higher top speed
> 
> mainly this is because you are moving against gravity, and the faster you go the more power you need!!
> 
> hence the 1000+ Bugatti = +420kmh


The faster you go the thicker the air in front of the vehicle becomes. Thats why aerodynamics becomes more important as speed increases and the fact you need more and more hp to increase speed just a small amount.


----------



## Arne (Dec 13, 2006)

hanzo said:


> more hp = higher top speed
> 
> mainly this is because you are moving against (gravity) the air, and the faster you go the more power you need!!
> 
> hence the 1000+ Bugatti = +420kmh


You don't only need more BHP - you also need more torque. BHP + torque = Power :wink:


----------



## hanzo (Apr 6, 2009)

all true!

i was just commenting on the bhp fact alone, but like the Bugatti, you have the famous switch to lower it, and have the spoilers lowered to become extremely slippery or like the TT has a very efficient aerodynamics package, apparently the TT handles side wind better than the cayman and boxter!! i read it in auto motor und sport, german car magazine


----------



## steeve (Jul 8, 2010)

Power to weight ratio is also important. Dozers have huge torque and high BHP figures but your not going to crack a good 0 to 60 time in one of those!

It's not as simple as it seems.

http://www.uk.cat.com/cmms/17733217?x=7


----------



## Survey S2000 (Jul 28, 2009)

mrdemon said:


> quote
> 
> better off selling your 2.0l and with your tuning money buying a 2nd hand TTS and chipping that.
> Base model tuning has always been a no no for me and money down the drain when you can buy factory faster cars which will hold resale better and keep warranty.


Based on your logic why buy a TTRS if you are going to tune it and devalue it, if you can buy a faster car same model or not. maybe a R8 second hand.... or something which handles.

All these figure chasing would suit a drag strip.

If people have a car and they want to tune it then fair play.


----------



## hanzo (Apr 6, 2009)

I agree to all the points, power to weight plays a big role, its a balance on looks for, thats why to tune a car up is alot of work.
I have been tuning my car for a while and every little thing needs another thing... so it is better to buy a TTRS than tuning a TTS.

i tune for pleasure and not to beat a TTS or RS ... its the joy of picking out items and working on it


----------



## mrdemon (Apr 20, 2005)

Survey S2000 said:


> mrdemon said:
> 
> 
> > quote
> ...


I wanted a TT for work and needed a boot etc , an R8 is double the price and slower ?
the RS TT is the top of the range car, you cannot buy a faster TT, but it would be silly to buy a TTS and spend 10k on it imho.

my vbox 40-60 mph time is 1.33 seconds, R8's and any lesser TT model can only dream of those times.


----------



## conneem (Nov 4, 2006)

mrdemon said:


> I wanted a TT for work and needed a boot etc , an R8 is double the price and slower ?
> the RS TT is the top of the range car, you cannot buy a faster TT, but it would be silly to buy a TTS and spend 10k on it imho.
> 
> my vbox 40-60 mph time is 1.33 seconds, R8's and any lesser TT model can only dream of those times.


For sure different strokes for different folks 

But spend 10k on a TTS would not be silly to some as you will be leaving some serious machinery in your wake on a track day 

http://forums.finalgear.com/general-aut ... tts-32849/


----------



## mrdemon (Apr 20, 2005)

Thing is I don't do track days in the RS.

been and done that for years in cars made for the track.
you cannot race on track days, so they get a bit dull after 40 or so.
and a TT with 4WD is not a fun way to enjoy track days imho.

If i wanted to do track days again I would buy a Radical of some sort, which would kill any road car if thats your bag.

On the road that TTS which cost the same price as my TTRS would not see where I went :lol:

I did look into a TTS but they were 30k second hand and do need 10k+ spending on them to reach any sort of good performace. That money buys you a brand new TTRS. so was a no brainer in my eyes to go the RS route.

I love modding so not slagging it, but always start from the car top in the line up.
peoplealways asked on the Porshce forum 
"how do I make my 2.7 cayman go faster"
to which my standard responce was always 
"sell it and buy the S"


----------



## Arne (Dec 13, 2006)

mrdemon said:


> Survey S2000 said:
> 
> 
> > mrdemon said:
> ...


My TTS is not that far from that 40-60 mph time, as it is in the strong spot of the 2. gear :wink:


----------



## mrdemon (Apr 20, 2005)

post your time then, it's that simple

my 60-80 time is 1.9 seconds you can post your time for that aswell.

when you say not far off, to get 0.5 seconds off a fast car takes a lot more Bhp and I mean a lot.
My gf mini is not far off either :lol:

or it's like me saying my cars not far off a 1000BHp Veyron as it's only 0.3 seconds away 40-60 

if I wanted to get my 1.3 second time to sub 1 seconds I would need a BHP/ton ratio of about 800 lol.

as one funny quote was
"When your piling speed on as this level a full second from 0-100mph isn't just in a differnat league, it's in a different universe" lol

I am not bragging about my car, so I hope it's not coming accross that way, just trying to prove a point which goes back to the OP's question tune a standard base model or go for a TTS and TTS wins every time imho.
I would sell on a base model car every time and put my modding money towards buying the next model in the range up.

My next target mod is a set of light weight wheels, that should help my in gear times to reduce again, but it's not going to be by much i would be over the moon with 0.1 second infact.


----------



## Kalibre46 (Dec 20, 2004)

Seeing as we've deviated slightly from the OT already....

How about a standard (manual) TT vs a remapped TDI? Remap gets you close on BHP albeit with a heavier car, but the torque differential is massive plus quattro is in the mix. Thoughts?


----------



## Arne (Dec 13, 2006)

mrdemon said:


> post your time then, it's that simple
> 
> my 60-80 time is 1.9 seconds you can post your time for that aswell.
> 
> ...


I will do a check/reading as soon as I have access to my editing software on the PC where I have the material - as that is the only way I can get a (almost) correct result. However I do not think that it is a 0.5 sec differense we talk about...

I am not saying that it is as fast as your car (offcourse it is not), but just pointing out that the differens is perhaps not as big as you seem to think :wink:

And you must remember that not everyone here has the same reference as you have when you say:


> I would sell on a base model car every time and put my modding money towards buying the next model in the range up.


As I have previously said here, the price difference between a TTRS and a TTS is aprox £ 40.000,- in Norway. And the price differense between a TT (2.0T) and TTS is close to £ 30.000,-.

A TTRS cost aprox £ 120.000,- here..... [smiley=bigcry.gif]

You can do a lot of modding for that kind of money :wink:


----------



## Arne (Dec 13, 2006)

Kalibre46 said:


> Seeing as we've deviated slightly from the OT already....
> 
> How about a standard (manual) TT vs a remapped TDI? Remap gets you close on BHP albeit with a heavier car, but the torque differential is massive plus quattro is in the mix. Thoughts?


I have not seen any results that shows the acceleration gains you can achieve with remapping the TT TDI. That could have been interesting.

However here you can see some results of a standard vs remapped A3 with the same two engines:

http://en.bsr.se/products/t864/ (2.0T 200 bhp)

http://en.bsr.se/products/t1221/ (TDI 170 bhp)

Problem is that they are tested in different gears, so it is hard to say how comparable it is.

However it does look like the standard 2.0T still will be rather faster than a remapped TDI.....


----------



## mrdemon (Apr 20, 2005)

Arne those price's are crazy.

you can spec up a TTS and see them for sale at 38k new

you can buy a 6 month old TTRS for less.

I had an order on a TTS but cancled it as I got 5k off a TTRS in the showroom ready to go.


----------



## Arne (Dec 13, 2006)

mrdemon said:
 

> Arne those price's are crazy.
> 
> you can spec up a TTS and see them for sale at 38k new
> 
> ...


If I had lived in the UK I would for 100% sure be driving a TTRS (remapped :wink: ) now.....

Our tax system is plain stupid as they have high taxes on bhp (and CO). Above 170 bhp you have to pay aprox £ 175,- for each extra bhp....(and you also pay bhp-tax for the first 170 - however not so much pr bhp).

Can anyone please tell me where the logic in this is.... :? We call it the envy-tax..... :lol:


----------



## drjam (Apr 7, 2006)

Arne said:


> However here you can see some results of a standard vs remapped A3 with the same two engines:
> http://en.bsr.se/products/t864/ (2.0T 200 bhp)
> http://en.bsr.se/products/t1221/ (TDI 170 bhp)
> 
> ...


If they've tested in the gear that in each case gives the best result, then it seems a fair enough comparison.

Certainly it always seems to me that the problem with testing two cars over the same speed interval in the same gear is that it takes no account of their different gearing setups. A fairer real-world comparison should really be just how fast is it possible to get from one speed to the next in a particular car, using whatever the optimum gear to do it (may even be more than one gear depending on the interval).


----------



## Arne (Dec 13, 2006)

Arne said:


> mrdemon said:
> 
> 
> > post your time then, it's that simple
> ...


Just done as good read out of 40-60 mph as I possible can, and it is 1.53 sec. Not as fast as your TTRS (as expected), but not too bad either :wink:

The 60-80 time is actually a surprice at excactly 2.0 sec, so that is rather close (it's a clean run on 3. gear with no gear changes, where the 2. gear runs out just before it hits 60 mph - which might slightly have an impact on the 40-60 run).

I do however think that the differences will increase at higher gears and speeds - specially at 5. and 6. gear.


----------



## mrdemon (Apr 20, 2005)

nice times  are you stage 2+

i can do 40-60 in 3rd at 1.7 seconds so loads of torque.
all mine are uphill aswell, cannot find a good flat bit of road which has stoppping points to reset the vbox which I can repeat time after time.

I just wish the car did 100mph in 3rd gear as I have yet to run the perfect 0-100 mph time and I hate going from 0mph.
it's an arse having to goto 4th to get the ton.

I think a tuned TTRS DSG is going to post some fast 0-100mph times 

3 gear changes in a DSG will save you just about 1 second.


----------



## jonathan30 (May 21, 2010)

Survey S2000 said:


> mrdemon said:
> 
> 
> > quote
> ...


totally agree, the comment saying your better off selling your base model car and buying a tts is ridiculous, you buy what you can afford to buy, i bought my tt 2 years ago, a tts was out of my price range then for what i was willing to spend on a second car, also to sell it now i would take a huge hit, then buy a tts to probably sell on again down the road??
in a ideal world why stop at a tts and not a ttrs, most of us have budgets


----------



## Arne (Dec 13, 2006)

Mine is just a stage 1 remap (tweaked three times to optimize the result - but unfortunately not on a dyno), but the weather was cold when I tested (+2-3 celsius) and humid - which does give some more power. And it was completely flat. I do think a little uphill will definately have an influence on the timing - and perhaps more than you might think....

To be perfectly honest I am very surpriced of how well the car goes after the remap. I had not expected no where near as good result as what I got, and I did the test repeatedly - with more or less excactly the same result each time.

The launch control with the S-tronic works amazingly well, and that combined with the quick gear changes has a lot to say on 0-100 mph times. It will be interesting to see what a tuned TTRS DSG will do :mrgreen:


----------

