# Possible guidelines for Forum Meets/cruises



## TTotal (Aug 12, 2002)

Some of us at the Peterborough meet had a few thoughts about Cruising "Ettiquette" and wonder if any of you had some thoughts as to whether the Events Co-Ordinator could consider accepting some ideas on guidelines or...? ? ?

Ideas please... ie for safety / common sense / fun /

Or maybe not required at all ???


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

We still don't know what caused the accident. Was it excessive speed, driving too close...?

What I have found out is that TT convoys try to drive fast...so should we recommend that drives are done in a more leisure way?

Why don't you suggest something?


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## TTotal (Aug 12, 2002)

Hi Stranger !

Well I have some ideas but just wanted to check what others thought first, without planting my thoughts...

PS wasnt thinking about the unfortunate incident with A3DFU/Jonah...that was an absolute freak accident not caused by cruising- itus .(Also wanted to leave it to them to discuss the affair, as you can imagine , damaging ones TT is bad enough, but to collide with another... a horror show.


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

Not required......


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## NormStrm (Sep 6, 2003)

> Cruising "Ettiquette"


Only one rule when cruising, you ensure that the person following you is actually doing just that!! so if you go across a set of lights which change, you pull over or slow down so the person following keeps in view. So effectively you all stay in convoy which is supposed to be the whole concept behind a cruise 

Norman


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

It should be pretty simple really.

Don't lose anyone

Drive roughly to the speed of the slowest car (or wait for them regularly to keep up)

Make sure you have everyone's mobile number in case you do get split up (ooops, made that mistake once, sorry PaulaTT, won't do it again!)

Obey the "usual" rules of driving. Not necessarily the laws of the road, but if you stick to the "only go as fast as the distance you can safely see to stop in" sort of rule, then you should be fine....

Depending on previous experiences (ie do you know all the drivers that are with you) sometimes wise to ban overtaking (of each other only, of course!) except on dual carriageways - takes away any "race" element which can get a bit dangerous, but if you know the group and their likely reactions to having someone blast past them, then no reason why not....

But these aren't "rules" really - just using a bit of common sense and safety.......


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## TTotal (Aug 12, 2002)

Yep, what I was looking for, 
I was also thinking that a headlights on rule would be good for various reasons.


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

no change for me there, then....


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## dazzler (Feb 12, 2003)

better having the person at the back having their head lights on that way it's easy to see the last person. (does not work at night though 8) )


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## TTotal (Aug 12, 2002)

Yep, I have mine on all the time , guess its my m-biking habits which are hard to break, also my car is black and easily hidden, unlike Waks which does stand out. Having lights on is mainly a safety aspect but it does reinforce the "look at me I'm in convoy" feelings, the Military do it....

I also like the idea that we always look out for the guy behind, say when approaching a junction where if you didnt stop, the following car may just miss the turn off.


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

I have mine on all the time too, but I guess that comes from driving a Volvo not riding a bike 

(oops)


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## jonah (Aug 17, 2002)

:-X


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## Wak (May 6, 2002)

> :-X


How about.....

Keep Jonah in front! Â :-/ 

Did you crack my windscreen?


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

Firstly:
the accident between Jonah and myself was NOT during the cruise: it happened because of 
*a dog running into the road in front of my car* and it could have happened at any time and to anyone. I'm not sure that it could have been avoided!! Â and very happily I can say we are still friends Â :-*

Cruising attitude:
Fuel: arrive with a full tank
Lights: on, that's good
Speed: adapt to the slowest driver and wait for the last person to catch up if seperated
Mobile Numbers: definitely; hand out before the cruise starts
A Plan: do it, hand it out and stick to it
Breaks: have a break every 25 - 30 miles; drivers get tired, even if they follow someone else; but this is most taxing for the lead car
Walkie-talkies: a brilliant idea for the lead car and the "trailer" It worked so well on th Isle of Wight meet!!
Overtaking: make it safe and don't do it if there is someone in the group who doesn't like it

I can't think of much more than that


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## Stu-Oxfordshire (May 7, 2002)

Daniela...
Seeing as I wasn't there at the weekend (what happened anyway?) I can't comment but I will extract Michael out of the following comments:



> A Plan: do it, hand it out and stick to it


bah! Â where;s the fun in that Â 



> Breaks: have a break every 25 - 30 miles; drivers get tired, even if they follow someone else; but this is most taxing for the lead car


 :-/ 30 miles? more like every 100.... ;D you obviously not been to Wales Â ;D



> Walkie-talkies: a brilliant idea for the lead car and the "trailer" It worked so well on th Isle of Wight meet!!


Sorry - do not agree. Â In fact, I'll take it one step further and say total elbow skin.....TT Meets can *appear* pretentious enough without feckin' walkie talkies....FFS



> Overtaking: make it safe and don't do it if there is someone in the group who doesn't like it


 : Â Sounds like rules for a group orgy Â ;D

Aside from that.....and as a relative veteran on these cruises, all I'll say is this

- Â The rules of physics still apply on TT meets as much as some people derise them

- Â Overtaking.....same rules still apply


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

I usually only stop when Mr Weak-Bladder Powell is dying for a wee  (which is about every 50 miles or so)

(that obviously doesn't include the usual brown trouser moments)

oh, the only rule I'll suggest is NEVER invite that nutter clarkson (W7PMC) cos his car is invisble to traffic cameras and he flatly refuses to overtake ANYTHING which makes for a dull 20moh drive behind a milkfloat more often than not....


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

> bah! Â where;s the fun in that Â
> 
> In my opinion: if you don't have a plan and an idea of the area you might wind up on pretty boring roads!
> 
> ...


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## moley (May 14, 2002)

> Sorry - do not agree. Â In fact, I'll take it one step further and say total elbow skin.....TT Meets can *appear* pretentious enough without feckin' walkie talkies....FFS


I totally disagree with you on the radios point - as Daniela said, it worked very well at the IOW meet - with Ron as Daniela's navigator and myself as a rear (but not last) car, I was able to let the front car know when we'd all cleared a junction, traffic lights or whatever, so think again.

Moley


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## moley (May 14, 2002)

Just a had a bit of a chat with Bunny on the cruise "etiquette" based on our IOW experience.

I think there is a need for some common sense rules, especially when in a convoy.

No. 1: Speed - if someone's trying to keep up with a speeding lead driver, risks are bound to be taken. Sooooo, speed should not be a requisite factor during a cruise. Keep the speed down.

No. 2: A planned route and planned venues is a must - with permissions if required. Although a 12 strong group of TTs looks impressive, it doesn't to everyone.

No. 3: If possible, keep in contact- PMR466 radios are great for this (CBs are not!!!). The more cars carrying this the better - everyone knows whats happening and, therefore, don't need to panic if they get seperated!!!!

No. 4: Common bloody sense. Don't take risks - it's only a bloody TT cruise ;D

Moley


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

If it was the dog's fault, why didn't you try to locate the owner and claim from him?


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## nutts (May 8, 2002)

Seems to me we need to be careful how we advertise meets...

We should advertise them either as

1) Cruises: Leisurely follow my leader type meet

or

2) "Hoon": Fast blast around the countryside / central London tunnels :.

or

3) Meet: Chat and a drink, typically in a pub or pub car park

With appropriate risks and arrangements (maps, walkie talkies, etc).


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## jonah (Aug 17, 2002)

> If it was the dog's fault, why didn't you try to locate the owner and claim from him?


Should of run the bloody thing over


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## privatebags (Feb 3, 2003)

I think that some members of this forum have missed the point of this topic.

This is not about what happened between Daniâ€™s and Jonahâ€™s cars at the weekend.

This is trying to let everyone enjoy the meets, not just the nutters that donâ€™t give a stuff about other forum members on the meet, and just want to race around the countryside at speedâ€™s in excess of 100mph.

If thatâ€™s what they want to do, then they should save it for the track days.

I think that the more experienced drivers need to remember how they felt when they first got their car.

If we donâ€™t think about the new members and slower drivers they will not come along any more.

This forum and the TTOC will only survive if we keep the membership we have and also get new members.

We all like to drive fast, and the cars are happy to oblige, but me for one doeâ€™s not look forward to the day we are pulling a fellow forum member out of a ditch because they misjudged a corner trying to keep up with everyone else.

The IOW meet was great, we drove fast at times and slowly at others. The radioâ€™s worked because it let the lead car know when to slow down because the tail of the convoy was held up. This gave the cruse the opportunity to flow more evenly and not stop and start like some others I can think of.

To me the idea of a cruse is to pose in the car and get noticed, how can we get noticed if we are going past at 100mph +. All we will get is a bad name and called a boy/girl racer.

Thatâ€™s me off of my soap box,

Letâ€™s come up with some guide lines not rules so that we can all enjoy the day.


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## mighTy Tee (Jul 10, 2002)

I agree with privatebags, my first and so far only hoon cruise was a fantastic learning experience, but I still do not have full confidence in the handling and performance so was also a near "brown trouser" experience.

Perhaps the most worrying thing was a pedestrain about to cross the road (at 11pm, I can assume there is a fair chance of him having had a skin full), especially as many years ago I had the misfortune of hitting a (stupid) pedestrian.  On this occassion there was only minor grazing, I was bloody lucky.

Don't get me wrong, I want to get the FULL TT experience, but not compromise safety. It was very hard work trying to keep up, but ultimately rewarding. ;D

I want to keep my driving licence and have fun, but not compromise safety.

The short range radio idea seems good, or if on an outing there are 2 distinct groups (fast and fastest) and perhaps, there should be a next/final destination where everyone meets for a coffee.....


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## nutts (May 8, 2002)

Which is why I said that we need to call a spade, spade.

This will allow those that want to come to a cruise, not to turn up and find 25 engines gunning and everyone with lids on ready to start a fast hoon .... and vice versa


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## KevinST (May 6, 2002)

Guess I'll end up getting flamed here... oh well. This is my personal opinion, not that of the site.

In my opinion, people driving on cruises / hoons drive faster and possibly more dangerously than they would do if they were driving on their own. It's down to peer preasure. No one wants to be mocked as the slowest, as the one who couldn't overtake... so many times people push themselves further than they are happy with... "brown trouser moments" shouldn't happen on the public roads!

Animals have been hit, speeding tickets have been given out, other vehicles have been forced off roads. and recently another TT has driven into the back of a stationary TT. Would any of these happened if the TT driver were out for a drive on their own? Would the TT driver have normally travelled that fast around a blind bend?

I'm not anti meetings - I'm not anti cruises... but I do think that we need to be a little more sensible sometimes. We're all reasonably well educated and intelligent people. We all earn decent money... should we be behaving in a way that makes people say "look at those idiots in the TTs". How many people here have seen 2 or 3 maxed up Nova's screeming down country lanes??

Have fun, be safe... but always remember we are driving on public roads, with their associated rules, and other drivers have the same right to be on the roads as we do.


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## ccc (May 7, 2002)

Well said, Kevin!


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## TTotal (Aug 12, 2002)

Excellent , sounds like we all need to think a little bit about our own styles of driving changing out of our normal standards...I for one will be the first to admit that given the right roads and conditions really get carried away when surrounded by a posse of TT's and have occasionally driven far quicker than I feel happy with. 
The temptaion to be "up" with the lead pack and not to be a back marker is very strong, also on foreign soil there is always the worry of getting lost. This is where the skills of the back marker come in and ensuring that we all give out mobile numbers before or at the start.

Thanks all for the contribution to this thread, all serious food for thought. (MighTy Tee I was thinking it was a bit of a hurried run for a newbie that night and am pleased that Julie wasnt put off by the scampering about that we did)


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## mighTy Tee (Jul 10, 2002)

I agree with Kevinst 100%

Likewise John (TTotal) I thoroughly enjoyed the spirited drive last week, and learnt more about the car in those few miles than I had in the previous 500 miles.

I would like to think I am responsible (after all I am 40!) but there is still the boy racer in me that grows horns and will go for it.

With the egos in a cruise pushing one another I do wonder how soon there will be some major event which will shock everyone.


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

Well.....

Interesting to hear everyone's viewpoint, and each to their own.

It should all boil down to 1 hard and fast rule - not of cruises themselves, but of driving in general - and thats not to drive faster than you PERSONALLY feel it is safe to do so. Nevermind what the car in front is doing.

The day I did my course with Big Jon, I had to follow his S3 to Bicester (old AMD) cos they wanted to measure it for an intercooler. Following on the lanes, trying to keep up with him, I found myself in exactly the situation I was describing above - driving faster than (at times) "felt" safe - in control of the car, yet not quite sure of its limits..... (and I told him so)

But even after a hard day driving (and concentrating!) when we picked his car up at the end of the day, (most of) the problems had evaporated. The day with Jon was sufficient to push my own safety limits further and further yet still be WELL within the limits of the car. I don't think he'd have had it any other way!

Which brings me back to one of my original points - the lead driver should either pitch the speed to the slowest member of the group, or regularly ensure the speed is dropped significantly to allow them to catch up. As far as I'm concerned, either attitude is fair game - some will take a different approach to others - but with the likes of W7PMC, Stu and Rob Beves regularly along to the drives I've been on, all of them do like to drive fast..... (as do I) so keeping strictly to the GLF speed limit of 60mph, and taking all bends at crawling pace simply isn't what we are out to do...

Jon taught me (although I do need to go back for a LOT more to consider myself anywhere near his class) that is IS possible to drive QUICKLY (where appropriate) and drive SPIRITEDLY and ENTHUSIASTICALLY (with a big f*ck-off grin on your face) without being dangerous....

I'd like to say that, in all the miles of cruising (and Portmeirion alone was probably approaching 9 hours driving!) the groups I've been in have NOT crossed the line of being "unsafe". Yes we've been stopped by the police, yes a bunch of us received a speeding ticket, yes we've pushed the cars at high speeds, but i *do* value my own life as well as the lives of others around me, and despite what some of you think, I *do* bottle things that I don't think are safe.....

Running cars off roads? *cough* Well that *was* me. I should point out that there was bugger all need for it, the guy simply freaked at seeing a car flying on the other side of the road. If he hadn't braked (and had brakes that pulled to the left) I would STILL have missed him....... 

Anyone is still welcome to come along with me. God, I even had a ropey MR2 with bald rear tyres on the last one. No way could he keep up on wet Welsh roads, but regular stops ensured he wasn't left behind or overly worried about trying to keep up......

BE SAFE, BE SENSIBLE, but you can still  HOON!


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

> The temptaion to be "up" with the lead pack and not to be a back marker is very strong, also on foreign soil there is always the worry of getting lost.


Hmmm all of my drives are on roads I don't use everyday, so ALL are "foreign soil" to me.....

As the lead car, I'm aware I'm often taking the most risks, but also don't forget, it means I can also set my own pace.......

If the leader is doing their job right, you should NOT worry about getting lost. I've found the trick is kind of in the planning (as much as I bother to do it) to find long stretches of decent roads where no turnings are necessary - meaning we get a good few miles blast without the remote chance of losing anybody...............

I'm sorry, but if the temptation to be up with the "lead pack" so strong enough for you to regularly drive way faster than you are capable of, then that is inevitably your own personal choice..... its then up to you whether to stay at home or take the risks......

If you aren't happy "following" a faster driver, then perhaps choose to lead instead?


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## PaulS (Jun 15, 2002)

> We should advertise them either as
> 
> 1) Cruises: Leisurely follow my leader type meet
> 
> ...


I like the classifications  The Southampton meet the other night was a cruise, followed by a meet, and then a 'personal' hoon on the way home 

Seriously though, on a couple of occasions I have thought that people have been driving just a little too "enthusiastically" I Agree with KevinST. Most of these events are 'organised' cruises anyway. Except if you live in Wales, where 'hooning' seems compulsory :


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

> To me the idea of a cruse is to pose in the car and get noticed, how can we get noticed if we are going past at 100mph +. All we will get is a bad name and called a boy/girl racer.


Now that IS down to personal opinion and geography....

If you drove around London like we drive around Wales, it'd be silly. But out there, with only sheep to admire us, there is little point in slowing down to be seen....

I'm sorry, but we DO save our posing (such as it is) for the slow crawl through the 30mph villages - but for those of us that didn't JUST buy the car for its drop dead looks, PLEASE don't tell us ALL to drive slowly enough to be "seen" when this is, afterall, only PART of the fun........


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## paulatt (Oct 28, 2002)

I was the 'tail' car on JampoTT's last Welsh meet. It was my first hoon around roads I had previously driven normally! At no time did I feel pressured to drive recklessly, just enjoyed the opportunity to really see how the car could perform.
I don't think a meet should drive as slow as the slowest car - wouldnt be any fun then!
But everyone should know the route (JampoTT was relying on telepathy which didnt work north of Cardiff!!) and also where the next stop will be, then everyone can drive as they wish.

No-one would intentionally endanger themselves, their car or other road users. You cant impose 'rules' for a TT meet - ridiculous idea.


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

Just some more points:

Saturday's accident happend at "crawling" speed, so no Hooning at all!!!!!! And well before the actual drive started!!

Dog running into road: yes, I could have collided with him/her but instinct told me not to!! My son has two dogs and I look after them frequently and I wouldn't want anyone to hurt them at all!!!! They are also living creatures, just like we are!

Better said than done to locate the owner of the dog: it came and went with ?no? houses around.
(and *no!!* it's not that invisible car that came out of the side road and vanished!!!!)

I fully agree with privatebags on all points: nothing else to add!!!


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

> But everyone should know the route (JampoTT was relying on telepathy which didnt work north of Cardiff!!)


Might have helped if I'd have known the route too  I know some of the roads, but not all of them, and like to do ones I havent done before "just to see"..... so that quite often means head for Brecon and make it up as I go along....!! 

but hey, we found you again and I didn't lose you a second time


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

Steady on, mate.....

Lots of people see fit to pass comment on stuff they haven't witnessed.

Sad as it is, whatever the circumstances, a TT hit a stationary object in the road. It matters not what that object was or why it was stationary.

I feel for you - really I do. My own car has had running repairs so I know what it feels like. I also know what it feels like to drive into the back of someone, only mine was sheer stupidity - not even a blind bend or dog to blame things on.......

But to moan at Kev for commenting is a little bit rich......


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## privatebags (Feb 3, 2003)

I donâ€™t understand why some people keep bringing up what happened at the weekend, for me this was an accident that could have happened at any time, and to anybody.

I feel that the two parties involved have enough things to remind them of what happened, and donâ€™t need everyone on this forum adding to that, and reminding them of it at every possible opportunity.

Think how you would feel if it was youâ€¦..!!!!!! :-[

The fact still remains, we need to think of all people on a cruse, not just ourselves.

Driving fast is fun, and yes we all have had â€˜brown trouser momentsâ€™ when we push the car a little too much, but we need to also think of safety.

The idea of the different types of meet might be a good idea, but that is for all to decide.

Lets stop getting wound up over this topic, take a step back, and think of what the car means to us all, and the enjoyment it brings.

But most of allâ€¦LETS BE SAFE OUT THEREâ€¦..


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## nutts (May 8, 2002)

> The idea of the different types of meet might be a good idea, but that is for all to decide.


I think we ALREADY have different types of meet, but unfortunately owners turn up and only have a vague idea of what will happen.

If I turn up to a meet, hoping for a fast blast or "hoon" around some fantastic welsh raods (is this the welsh spelling :) and ended up sitting in a pub for 4 hours, I'd be pretty disappointed to say the least. And I can imagine the opposite being true for some owners too.

I'm NOT going to stop owners (why should I? Who am I to stop others owners enjoyment?) from having a meet, a cruise or a hoon.

A simple classification is what is needed and an understanding that there is NO pressure to drive faster (on any event) than you feel comfortable with. Also if people feel happy with using walkie talkies, using maps, pretermined routes or exchanging phone numbers, or having a back marker then do it.... there are no right or wrong ways.......


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## KevinST (May 6, 2002)

Jonah - yeah you're right, I wasn't there. But that doesn't stop me being able to comment or have an opinion on what has happened.

I really am sorry that there was an accident, I'm even more sorry that it was between 2 TT's from this forum... but the fact is the accident did happen.

The question that you should really ask yourself is would this of happened if you were not in a convoy of other TT's? do you normally drive around a blind bend (I assume it was a blind bend because you hit an almost stationary car) at a speed that means you are unable to stop in time?


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## mighTy Tee (Jul 10, 2002)

Oh John, look what you have started [smiley=argue.gif], if this continues we will see a civil war [smiley=behead2.gif] [smiley=behead.gif]

All this [smiley=knife.gif] [smiley=rifle.gif], just because you suggested a bit of [smiley=policeman.gif]ing on cruises.

If everyone keeps bickering like this, then the future for the forum is [smiley=end.gif]

For starting this topic John, I think you should be [smiley=hanged.gif] 

It strikes me that TT Owners have gotten hot under the collar on this, and we should all sit back and stop acting like [smiley=kid.gif] [smiley=kid.gif] and enjoy the [smiley=dude.gif]TT experience [smiley=mexicanwave.gif]

[smiley=cheers.gif] [smiley=crowngrin.gif]

Richard


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## Andyman (May 6, 2002)

> I agree with privatebags, my first and so far only hoon cruise was a fantastic learning experience, but I still do not have full confidence in the handling and performance so was also a near "brown trouser" experience.
> 
> Perhaps the most worrying thing was a pedestrain about to cross the road (at 11pm, I can assume there is a fair chance of him having had a skin full), especially as many years ago I had the misfortune of hitting a (stupid) pedestrian.  On this occassion there was only minor grazing, I was bloody lucky.
> 
> ...


In that case I must apologise for the pace as I assume you're referring to the Southampton meet the other week. As leader of the pack I was attempting to make it a spirited and fun drive whilst keeping it safe. I've led a number of these drives now but those held after dark are the hardest. The only person you can see clearly is the guy directly behind you and we all know how intimidating a set of xenon's can be. Judging the pace is very difficult under these circumstances because you can't see how everyone else is managing to keep up. I tried to select some roads that would have enough relatively easy overtaking opportunities but getting split up is inevitable. I think we made fairly frequent stops to regroup and everyone accepts that this is necessary and fair. Also I was at fault for not taking more time to find out who was on the drive. Knowing the experience levels general pace everyone wanted before hand would have made me a little more conscious of you guys at the back.

My style of driving when going quickly tends to be fast in the fast sections and slow through the built up areas and I hope this was evident on Tuesday. I believe 30 and 40 limits give you a lot of information about the hazards youâ€™re about to encounter and racing through them unwise. I would be interested in how you viewed our use of speed on the drive as I donâ€™t think it was anywhere near as excessive as some Iâ€™ve been on. Certainly I donâ€™t believe it reached 3 figures as many frequently do.


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## mighTy Tee (Jul 10, 2002)

Andy

No need to apologise, I loved just about every minute of the drive. I learnt more about the car in those few miles than I had in the previous 500.

There were two things that did worry me though, (1) how crap the brakes are, I would have expected far more stopping power than I got and (2) the one pedestrian (sober at 11pm?) that thought about crossing the road as I exited a roudabout in Olivers Battery. I know if he had not refrained, I could NOT have taken avoiding action.

The bottom line on that one was I was the one driving and had the worst happened, the buck stopped with me as it is my decision alone on how I drive.

I am not put off cruising and will join in on a future event ;D ;D


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## b3ves (May 6, 2002)

yawn


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

Right there with you Rob. 

I to a point agree with most of the comments made, but FFS we are all adults (well most of us anyway).

Who has the right to dictate driving styles (except the police of course ). I for one drive my TT in many different ways. I drive steady & safe when in traffic or towns etc. i probably go a little above the speed limit on the motorway (when conditions allow) but only slightly above & not intergalactic speeds.

When i'm out in the country, then thats a different matter, but again if conditions allow. Why the hell would i have purchased a TT if i was going to drive it like my Mondeo?

Its all horses for courses. If hooning aint your thing then stay at home or attend a cruise / treasure hunt style event.

One final point & i know i'm gonna get flamed for this but i don't really give a sh*t. How many of us have been out on cruises, hoons or whatever you want to call them?? The statistics speak for themselves. In all the time i've attended meets/drives & been on the forum, Jonah's/Dani's incident is the only one between 2 forum TT's that i can recall and as they have both confirmed, it was a genuine accident unrelated to any hooning or speed related activity.

I rest my case. Speeding does not kill, but piss poor driving standards do.

Ps. Whats a milkfloat? & Tim drives like a girl (no offence ladies )


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## privatebags (Feb 3, 2003)

It is obvious to me that from the comments above that many members have some strong and very good ideas. [smiley=idea2.gif]

All we need to do is stop getting hot under the bonnet [smiley=furious3.gif] and sit back and listen to what they have to say.

Keep the good ideas coming [smiley=thumbsup.gif] and stop the bitching. [smiley=argue.gif]


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

> The question that you should really ask yourself is would this of happened if you were not in a convoy of other TT's? do you normally drive around a blind bend (I assume it was a blind bend because you hit an almost stationary car) at a speed that means you are unable to stop in time?


Kevin,
please don't make Jonah feel any worse than he already did/does. There was no convoy, no blind bend, no excessive speed; just two TTs checking out the route.
And I'll have Jonah follow me at any time in the future!!

The main thing is: no-one was hurt and damage to cars can (and will be) repaired


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## TTotal (Aug 12, 2002)

Hi Richard, "Shouldnt have posted this ?" No I disagree , the forum is what this is all about, sharing opinions and thoughts and maybe having a go !

I am learning to get pretty thick skinned because most of my post are called "Utter shiTTe" and "Rubbish" and even worse ....

Last year I post a simple paragraph basically reminding us all about drinking and driving around Christmas time and I get so much abuse it was amazing.This turned into about 30 pages of rant by some posters.....

Please all , just tell me to f. off and I promise I will not post another bloody message again.  Thanks.


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

> Please all , just tell me to f. off and I promise I will not post another bloody message again. Â  Thanks.


Sorry, no telling off from "up north"
Quite the contrary: I think you have started (once again) a very a very valuable discussion point/thread


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## Mayur (Jan 29, 2004)

John, I think this is turning into a very useful thread. It has certainly made me more aware of certain issues to do with meets, hoons etc. and I have found some of the discussions highly constructive. So, no need to stop posting. Many thanks.
Mayur


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## b3ves (May 6, 2002)

I've an idea - how about adding a suffix to event titles so as to attract the appropriate forum member profile?

I'm thinking along the lines of:

Queens Arms Meet/Cruise (polishers)
Milton Keynes Roundabout Hoon (drivers)

Rob runs for cover


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## TTotal (Aug 12, 2002)

> John, I think this is turning into a very useful thread. It has certainly made me more aware of certain issues to do with meets, hoons etc. and I have found some of the discussions highly constructive. So, no need to stop posting. Many thanks.
> Mayur


Mayur I have left my curser over your sig now for twenty minutes , your car does not stop rushing about.....looks a bit too fast mate ! :


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## AL_B (Jun 19, 2002)

Sad to hear about the accident. Glad it wasn't anything too serious.

I've found this thread very interesting, and like the meet classifications. Interesting because I am organising a "hoon" event at the end of this month, and will end up being the lead car. I'll be honest, I'm worried about setting the right pace and keeping the group together. With RS4's, chipped S3's and chipped S4's behind me quite a few will no doubt think I'm not going fast enough.

One point above which I thought was right on the dot was: the TT is not JUST for posing in, its a sports car, which means its built to be hooned. Posing never comes into the equation for me, not being a TT owner. Â 

I'll look forward to reading more peoples comments - as long as it doesn't explode into the 15 pages of unrelated rubbish. Â : Â ;D

AL


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## PaulS (Jun 15, 2002)

> I would be interested in how you viewed our use of speed on the drive as I dont think it was anywhere near as excessive as some Ive been on. Certainly I dont believe it reached 3 figures as many frequently do.


  I believe I was behind TTotal who was behind you, Andy, and the drive down to Southampton was certainly no mad 100 mph+ 'hoon' as some people have hinted (things can get exaggerated after the event...) I think that may have only applied to some of the tail enders that got seperated due to the inevitable traffic lights and general traffic, and decided (on their own) that they needed to 'catch up', thats up to them. All seemed fine to me on our drive. Ok, we were Making the most of the acceleration of the car, but everything else was kept within the speed limits and taking into account the other traffic around, it was quite busy.


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## mighTy Tee (Jul 10, 2002)

PaulSTT

Assuming your comments are about my posting, I was not on the early evening drive, but the post meeting drive.

I have no criticism of Andyman's lead and he is correct in the quote of not 3 figures.

I think my comments have been taken out of context as what I was trying to get across, was

1) my inexperience of the performance and handling of the TT, made the drive probably more exhilarating for me than more experienced TTers

2) My concern for a pedestrian, I was not suggesting speed was a factor, the speed was probably well below the speed limit.

What I was trying to highlight is the unexpected can happen no matter how experienced a driver anyone is.

15 years ago I believed "it could not happen to me", now as a far more experienced driver (24years and nearly 500,000 miles of road experience), I "want to prevent it happening to me".

Please don't get me wrong, I want to (and will) exploit the power/handling etc on the TT, but not at the expense of my or other peoples safety.

Therefore I think TTotal is correct in raising this subject on the forum, even if it does bore certain (faster) members.


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## Andyman (May 6, 2002)

> 2) My concern for a pedestrian, I was not suggesting speed was a factor, the speed was probably well below the speed limit.


I was going to say that actually. The roundabout at Olivers Battery is a 40mph section and I thought we kept to those pretty well. And I suppose that was my point. The limits in urban areas are (generally) there for a reason. Drunk pedestrians being just one. I think this is why most hoons I've been on take great care through these areas and leave the higher speeds to the national speed limit areas out in the countryside.

I'd like to think that out of this thread the faster guys can gain an appreciation for the less experienced members. Its not all about trying to prove you're faster than them but ensuring that everyone has fun. Blast off as fast as you like but give everyone a chance to catch up now and then. If someone is leading in a 350bhp monster with uprated brakes the guy behind in a standard 180 isn't going to stand a chance or is going to be forced to take unreasonable risks in an attempt to keep up.

Big Jonâ€™s pre-Beaulieu drive across three counties last summer was a good example. We had some very fast guys following Jon for most of the day but Jon managed to keep us all together despite there being 15 cars of different specs and different levels of driver experience. I donâ€™t think anyone could have said they were being held back yet no one was being forced to drive beyond their ability.

PaulSTT,
Yes I agree with you the early cruise from Basingstoke to Southampton was quite reasonably paced. I probably wouldnâ€™t have done it any quicker than that because I was chatting to Phil most of the way and made a hands-free phone call to Chris who joined us later at the pub. The post-meet drive was somewhat faster paced.


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## TTotal (Aug 12, 2002)

A little point worth mentioning is...

If you are at the back end of a largeish group, you have to drive FASTER than the lead car just to keep in touch with the group !!!

That sounds daft but its true !


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## b3ves (May 6, 2002)

> A little point worth mentioning is...
> 
> If you are at the back end of a largeish group, you have to drive FASTER than the lead car just to keep in touch Â with the group !!!
> 
> That sounds daft but its true !


LOL, is that some kind of bizarre quantum theory? What a load of tosh


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## Andyman (May 6, 2002)

> If you are at the back end of a largeish group, you have to drive FASTER than the lead car just to keep in touch Â with the group !!!


So thats your excuse then is it John? Hmmm. 8)


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## kmpowell (May 6, 2002)

> In my opinion, people driving on cruises / hoons drive faster and possibly more dangerously than they would do if they were driving on their own. It's down to peer preasure. No one wants to be mocked as the slowest, as the one who couldn't overtake... so many times people push themselves further than they are happy with... "brown trouser moments" shouldn't happen on the public roads!
> 
> Animals have been hit, speeding tickets have been given out, other vehicles have been forced off roads. and recently another TT has driven into the back of a stationary TT. Would any of these happened if the TT driver were out for a drive on their own? Would the TT driver have normally travelled that fast around a blind bend?


Ive said it before(when the first incednet happened a few years ago) and ill say it again now, that is UTTER bollocks!!!

No mocking took place(in 2001) when we were stopped coming out of Brecon at the others who werent speeding, and(recently) as PaulaTT testifies, as we were blasting around the brecons last time(a few months ago), nobody mocked her for being at the back or being slower. She was there to enjoy the car just like the rest of us and a great day was had by all.

Kevin, i find your opinion on this subject 'holier than thou' and IMO are appalling


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## TTotal (Aug 12, 2002)

Aint worth arguing with you guys .


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## Andyman (May 6, 2002)

Ooo get you


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## TTotal (Aug 12, 2002)

Well just thnik about it, say 20 cars back from the lead car, you will never be able to keep up unless you go faster as you will have cars and other obstructiuons pulling in to the spaces between. You ill have to negotiate all this , all of the miles and minutes that you are behind car #1 you are loosing ground and will have to drive faster to keep up , never mind catch up with him.

But then again I may be talking like the ars* you think I am.


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## Andyman (May 6, 2002)

That only applies if someone manages to pull out in the middle of the convoy or the convoy gets split at a junction or roundabout. Otherwise on a straight road the convoy comes up on a car and everyone has to take roughly the same amount of time to overtake it.


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## TTotal (Aug 12, 2002)

:-/ er , thats what I said. And that always happens .


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## KevinST (May 6, 2002)

Kevin - I've been trying to decide whether to bother replying to your post or not... in the knowledge that no matter what I or anyone else says... you're opinion isn't going to change. To be honest, it doesn't surprise me that you're so defensive Â :-/

Anyone who knows even a little bit about human psychology knows that most human beings are compatitive. We often feel the need to be better, or at least equal to others. I'm sorry if you don't agree that happens to you... maybe it doesn't.

But the question you have to ask yourself is... do you drive differently when on a "hoon" than when you're on your own? do you break more speed limits because you want to keep up with others than you do when your driving on your own? Do you take more risks to "impress" or just keep up with others? 
I really don't care what your response is, you have to be happy with your own standard of driving.

I know of one member of the forum who in the past has said that getting radar detectors, GPS based camera detection systems isn't for them because they always keep to the 30,40 and 50 mph speed limits... but they received a speeding ticket whilst on a "hoon".

The comment about "no one wants to be moced" is due to the nature that many people will push themselves beyound their own abilities for feer of being mocked. I'm not saying that it always happens, but the human psychology will believe it could and wants to avoid it. The fact that PaulaTT was strng enough to not worry about that happening is a credit to her.

I'm not sure where you get the "Holier than thou" attitude from?? or that my opinion is "appalling" I find that strange coming from you!
I've done very few cruises, I have little interest in "hooning"... why?? 'cause I've done it in the past - I've seen how dangerous it can be when people push themselves further that they want to go because of, real or imagined, peer preasure.

TTotal...


> If you are at the back end of a largeish group, you have to drive FASTER than the lead car just to keep in touch Â with the group !!!


Your mad Â ;D


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## TTotal (Aug 12, 2002)

> TTotal...
> 
> 
> > If you are at the back end of a largeish group, you have to drive FASTER than the lead car just to keep in touch with the group !!! [/quote Your mad


Mad...me ? Bloody Fuming ! 

No really its true if you think about it, it has happend on every single cruise/meet I have been on.


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## Andyman (May 6, 2002)

Thats cos you're too busy messing with your hair Â ;D


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## KevinST (May 6, 2002)

> Mad...me ? Â Bloody Fuming !
> 
> No really its true if you think about it, it has happend on every single cruise/meet I have been on. Â


but...but...
what you're saying is that if car A at the front is going 50mph then car E at the back needs to go faster than car A _just to keep up_ ?? bonkers - completly bonkers. ;D


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## kmpowell (May 6, 2002)

> Kevin - I've been trying to decide whether to bother replying to your post or not... in the knowledge that no matter what I or anyone else says... you're opinion isn't going to change. To be honest, it doesn't surprise me that you're so defensive Â :-/
> 
> Anyone who knows even a little bit about human psychology knows that most human beings are compatitive. We often feel the need to be better, or at least equal to others. I'm sorry if you don't agree that happens to you... maybe it doesn't.
> 
> ...


Sorry Kevin, but this response is so patronising, its beyond belief! Im not even going to waste the wear on my keyboard replying.


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## Andyman (May 6, 2002)

I think he's saying that car E would have to go faster to catch up. That is if car A pulls out of a T junction and floors it up to 50 then car E may have been waiting at the T junction for 2 minutes by the time he can pull out. In that time car A has had 2 minutes travelling at 50 to get away. Car E is then 2 minutes behind car A and must do more than 50 to catch him up before slowing to 50 to follow him.


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## TTotal (Aug 12, 2002)

And if the cloud bursts, thunder in your ear
You shout and no one seems to hear
And if the band you're in starts playing differnt tunes
I'll see you on the dark side of the moon............. [smiley=rolleyes5.gif]


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## TTotal (Aug 12, 2002)

> I think he's saying that car E would have to go faster to catch up. That is if car A pulls out of a T junction and floors it up to 50 then car E may have been waiting at the T junction for 2 minutes by the time he can pull out. In that time car A has had 2 minutes travelling at 50 to get away. Car E is then 2 minutes behind car A and must do more than 50 to catch him up before slowing to 50 to follow him.


Bye George , he's got it !  ;D


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

> A little point worth mentioning is...
> 
> If you are at the back end of a largeish group, you have to drive FASTER than the lead car just to keep in touch Â with the group !!!
> 
> That sounds daft but its true !


This is exactly the reason why I maintain that walkie-talkies/CBS are very useful for the lead and trail car


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

> What a load of tosh


Sorry, Rob,

I don't think it's tosh at all: the drivers at the back might be held up by whatever and then have to catch up with the leaders to re-join the pack and will, therefore, have to drive faster than the people at the front who'll still travel at the same speed as before.
No quantum theory, extremely simple law of physics


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

> But the question you have to ask yourself is... do you drive differently when on a "hoon" than when you're on your own?


YES!!!! I drive VERY differently when in convoy, at a cruise or hoon or when I have a passenger in my car!!!!
Perhaps not the way you suggest, Kevin, but I drive faster when I'm on my own, because I concentrate more on the driving.


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## TTotal (Aug 12, 2002)

Also because there aint no passenger saying "Slow down !"


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

> I know of one member of the forum who in the past has said that getting radar detectors, GPS based camera detection systems isn't for them because they always keep to the 30,40 and 50 mph speed limits... but they received a speeding ticket whilst on a "hoon".


Kev,

Is that me perchance? *cough*

No, I'd like to think my approach to laser detectors, speed cameras and unmarked cars is WAY different to that..... my reason for not buying a detector is quite simply they aren't infallible. I'd rather not rely on something which, when I'm doing 120mph towards a speed trap, fails to respond. Buying one doesn't give people any more right to speed around, and I just think they can be very dangerous to rely on - and rather than thinking "is it safe to travel at this speed, on this road, in these conditions" you might just think "fuck it" and go faster, thinking you can't get caught, which may increase the chances of having an accident (or getting caught!) than if you rely on your eyes and common sense.

That said, yes I did get a speeding ticket on a hoon. Of all the cars in the convoy, not ONE detector went off. Yes I did get stopped in Brecon in 2001 for doing a very excessive speed (again, in convoy) and YET AGAIN, not one detector registered that we'd been "trapped" (perhaps on that occasion we weren't......)

I took my Â£60 and 3 point fine with a shrug. Roughly 1/5th the cost of a detector........


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## Emmy (May 7, 2002)

Heh... amusing thread 

Anyway... Here's my view (and getting back to the topic at hand, which seems to have been lost somewhere!!)...

I AGREE WITH MARK. 

We should classify events by what the organisor wants at that event... Then drivers who are less confident can choose not to attend 'hoons', but still be able to attend 'cruises' or 'meets'... Also, if you want to attend a 'hoon', but dont feel confident enough to keep up, then why not ask someone if you can be a passenger with them, especially if it's your first fast drive...

Also, I heartily recommend (as do many on the forum) that if you want to increase your confidence, learn the limits of YOURSELF, and how to be fast AND safe, then attend one of BigJons courses (www.drivetrain.uk.com). It's a LOT of fun, and you will learn sooooooo much! 

Just my thoughts....

Thanks

Shash.

"Always looking for that golden GLF... "


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## KevinST (May 6, 2002)

> Kev,
> 
> Is that me perchance? *cough*
> 
> No, I'd like to think my approach to laser detectors, speed cameras and unmarked cars is WAY different to that.....


LOL - guess I misunderstood your comment back in June 02 then...


> I tend to cruise between 85 and 95 on the motorways, depending on conditions, traffic flow etc, and I always let quicker traffic past. I don't race on motorways (there is no point) as by the time rep man has exhausted his maximum speed, I'm already doing a speed I'm not entirely comfortable with on a public road (120mph+)* - ok, so I might hoon up to 100 to show I can play but I don't take it any further than that. It isn't worth it.....





> As for A roads - well this is where your Geo would come in handy. Me? Well I tend to stick within 10-15 mph of the limit anyway, doing maybe 75 on a single lane, 85 on a dual carriage way section. Maybe pushing 90-95 if its similar to a motorway.


 :-/


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## nutts (May 8, 2002)

I think all views have now been covered. Lets stop this thread now as it's unlikely to continue in an educational form. It may very well turn into personal attacks (if it hasn't already) and no one likes that.

This is NOT the forum for bitching. This is to advertise events!

So if you are planning on organising an event, then say whether it is a meet, a posy cruise or a fast "hoon". If you want to use walkie talkies then do it, etc and if you don't then ....don't.

Remember.. NO RULES, JUST GUIDLINES.


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

I fail to see how those quotes contradict what I've just said???

Where in there do I say I stick to the speed limits? Nowhere...... I just said I stick "close" to them - 10-15 mph.....

Besides, the comments were general. I blasted back through the Forest of Dean the other day at vastly differing speeds - sometimes fast, sometimes slow. Sometimes to enjoy the car, sometimes to enjoy the scenery......

Its not fair to say I drive recklessly when on a cruise. I don't. I drive differently according to whatever mood I'm in. On plenty of occasions, I take the car along different roads to the signposted "quickest" A-B route just for pleasure - at these times I drive differently to when I'm simply going A-B. For me, cruising is exactly the same as me taking the car out for pleasure on my own, except I have company, and am MORE likely to slow down on occasion to allow others to catch up, or take a break.....


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

And I'm sorry, but dredging up 9 or 10 month old comments to try and win an argument is just a little bizarre.....

Find where I said "I never speed, I always obey the rules of the road, and I don't drive like a complete maniac" and maybe I'll eat my hat...... but you won't


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## nutts (May 8, 2002)

Take it off-line guys. I for one don't want to read anymore, please.


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## KevinST (May 6, 2002)

> Take it off-line guys. I for one don't want to read anymore, please.


Agreed. This is one of those subjects where agreement will never be achieved :-/ 
If I've insulted anyone with my views - appologies.


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## PaulS (Jun 15, 2002)

> PaulSTT
> 
> Assuming your comments are about my posting, I was not on the early evening drive, but the post meeting drive.


Hello Mighty Tee Â ;D (sorry, forgot your real name Â :-[)

My comments were purely a response to Andymans question on his 'leading of the pack' on the Southampton run. I thought he drove fine. I didn't participate in the 'after the pub' drive, as I had rather a long drive home in the opposite direction to do Â : Â



> My inexperience of the performance and handling of the TT, made the drive probably more exhilarating for me than more experienced TTers


I think I mentioned to you at the pub that it takes many weeks of driving to find out what a TT can actually do Â  It still amazes me, especially at the recent Castle Coombe meeting!

Glad your enjoying it Â 8)


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## jonah (Aug 17, 2002)

> Agreed. This is one of those subjects where agreement will never be achieved Â :-/
> If I've insulted anyone with my views - appologies.


Not me Kev ;D


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## PaulS (Jun 15, 2002)

> I've an idea - how about adding a suffix to event titles so as to attract the appropriate forum member profile?
> 
> I'm thinking along the lines of:
> 
> ...


LOL!

That sums up TT owners very well.


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

> Take it off-line guys. I for one don't want to read anymore, please.


Oh FFS - don't read anymore then! I'm not gonna stand behind you and make you!! Sorry Herr NuTTs you can't just stomp onto a discussion and tell everyone to stop because you are bored of it.....

KevST has aired his views, I have responded. I'm still waiting for an explanation as to how I contradicted myself - but it seems Kev agrees with taking the subject offline (seems a handy get-out) so unless he chooses to IM, email or ICQ me privately, I guess I'll be left wondering......


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## TTotal (Aug 12, 2002)

Seems like we've been told by the BOSS to quit now, or move across to Off Topic... ?

(NuTTs has moderated the moderator ! LOL)


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## PaulS (Jun 15, 2002)

:-/ I don't think there is any need for this thread to be moderated, just yet ....

Basically, I agree with KevinST, JampoTT and Emmy.

Yes, lets have a bit more info publicised about what type of meet it will be. Then owners can make up their mind beforehand if they want to attend. But I don't believe anybody has been 'put off' a meet because of the 'style' of driving. The TT is a sports car after all!

If you don't feel safe 'keeping up' then don't try to, stay within your limits and be sensible. Agree with JampoTT about speed/radar detectors, I don't bother with them. Stick to the in town speed limits, and 'use' the car when appropriate

Guidelines, not rules.


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

> Lets stop this thread now as it's unlikely to continue in an educational form. It may very well turn into personal attacks (if it hasn't already) and no one likes that.


My appologies, Mark, if I disagree.

I don't believe that any "bitching" as you call it is going on and I think it's very important that we all have the opportunity to discuss the issue of driving ettiquette for as long as it is important and *all* forum users see fit!!

After all: we are all talking about eachother's safety as well as the safety of "innocent" road useres, may they be drivers, pedestrians _or dogs!!!!_ for that matter (flame suit on!)


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## PaulS (Jun 15, 2002)

> My appologies, Mark, if I disagree.
> 
> I don't believe that any "bitching" as you call it is going on and I think it's very important that we all have the opportunity to discuss the issue of driving ettiquette for as long as it is important and *all* forum users see fit!!
> 
> After all: we are all talking about eachother's safety as well as the safety of "innocent" road useres, may they be drivers, pedestrians _or dogs!!!!_ for that matter (flame suit on!)


Yes  Bored of coil pack talk .... :


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## Mayur (Jan 29, 2004)

> Seems like we've been told by the BOSS to quit now, or move across to Off Topic... ?
> 
> (NuTTs has moderated the moderator ! LOL)


Is this a case of..."we are all equal, but some are more equal than others?"

The thread is still Â continuing to shed some old and new views on the topic which I am continuing to gain from. We are all mature enough to determine what info we want to extract. To silence a this thread at this time is unforumlike (if there is such a word).


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## mighTy Tee (Jul 10, 2002)

> After all: we are all talking about eachother's safety as well as the safety of "innocent" road useres, may they be drivers, pedestrians or dogs!!!! for that matter (flame suit on!)


Since when have they been Innocent???


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## b3ves (May 6, 2002)

> Sorry, Rob,
> 
> I don't think it's tosh at all: the drivers at the back might be held up by whatever and then have to catch up with the leaders to re-join the pack and will, therefore, have to drive faster than the people at the front who'll still travel at the same speed as before.
> No quantum theory, extremely simple law of physics


Sorry to drag this out, but now you've dragged laws of physics into it

Speed = Distance Ã· Time

If an object is stationary (not moving), then its speed is zero. Actually it's more appropriate to use Velocity as opposed to Speed, since Velocity respects changes in direction, but the equation remains the same, i.e. Distance Ã· Time

What I think you and TTotal are really saying is that the trailing driver MAY have to drive faster at times, if he/she wants to catch up after getting delayed at junctions, etc. The average speed of the trailing driver compared to the lead is still determined by the respective start and finish times. If the trailing driver decides to drive at the same speed at any given point on the road, they will gain on the roundabouts what they lose on the swings, i.e. the lead driver may get held up at the next junction. What it boils down to is whether you're desperate to drive in a pack at all times and my suggestion for safe progress would be for the lead driver to regularly slow down/stop to allow stragglers to catch up. We usually do this and it works well.

Rob


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

> Sorry to drag this out, but now you've dragged laws of physics into it
> Speed = Distance Ã· Time


 ;D ;DThanks, Rob, 
you are talking to a Scientific Instuments Consultant here, who studied Chemistry, Physics and Biology. and runs her own *very* successful business together with hubbie since 15+ years Â  . Â 
I just chose to "advocate" my second business choice on the forum (the Personal Training one) Â because it suits me more right now!!!! ;D ;D

I think Andy explained it all: if the lead car sets off at a junction and the "trailer" will have to wait 2/3 min to turn into the junction, then the trailer has no choice but to play "catch the leader" come what will!!
....unless, of course .... the leader is notified by walkie-talkies when the last car has cleared a junction/obsatcle .... and waits accordingly!!!!


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

> If the trailing driver decides to drive at the same speed at any given point on the road,


This, of course, would go along with one of my many other points: have a plan, hand it out and stick to it!!!

Then it wouldn't much matter if the pack get split up, providing drivers/passengers can read route notes!!!!


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

Blimey what a fun thread.

In my experience the rear of a large group (say 8 or over) do really experience the "elastic band effect" resulting in having to drive faster than the front cars. In fact in the group on the way to the EGM a few people told me that they really had to push on to keep trying to catch up the front runners. The front cars were keeping to no more than 90 but the rear gunners were struggling. I'm amazed that the "disbelievers" can't fathom this. Surely you've been on a motorway when a car way in front slowy brakes but this gets amplified my each car until at some point someone slams on. When it clears it seems as if the road ahead is empty. This is the effect in action.

I've been on a few cruises in the past but less so now. It's not that I've grown out of them or become bored by them but, to be totally honest (flame me if you want), I don't trust many of the drivers that I've been out on cruises with before. Most of the time people follow way to close and I spend more time worrying about them rear ending me than enjoying the cruise.

I am aware of other forum members with the same thoughts which is sad. Fun days spoilt by poor driving.

It is possible to drive fast and safe but many people leave the same gap as 40 as they do at 90. I'm not suggesting Big Jon's course be compulsory but a hell of a lot of people on cruises that I've been on could benefit from it.

So there you go, you know where I stand on the issue. If you are ever behind me and I feel your too close then I'll tell you. I have before and I'm sure I will again.

Sorry to those I offend when I do this but at least you know where you stand with me and I won't assasinate you behind you back.

P.S. I think an indication of the sort of event would be useful. Why not?


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## TTotal (Aug 12, 2002)

Halleylooyah!I am not mad thanks scoTT*y* at last I am believed ! So all you clever bu**ers apologies at the ready please ! 8)


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## KevinST (May 6, 2002)

mumble mumble I'm sorry mumble mumble

Still think you're mad though.


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## nutts (May 8, 2002)

My point is that THIS is not the forum to discuss, this is an events forum and this thread is not just discussing event etiquette, it is degenerating.

I never mentioned being bored or bitching.

This forum fecks me off sometimes. "Herr" Nutts? Thanks mate :-/


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## nutts (May 8, 2002)

People can't stop themselves from making personal attacks :-/ :-/


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## b3ves (May 6, 2002)

> ;D ;DThanks, Rob,
> you are talking to a Scientific Instuments Consultant here, who studied Chemistry, Physics and Biology. and runs her own *very* successful business together with hubbie since 15+ years Â  . Â
> I just chose to "advocate" my second business choice on the forum (the Personal Training one) Â because it suits me more right now!!!! ;D ;D


Now you've said that, I feel like a mental/vocational pigmy and had better take it all back


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

I thought you didn't want to read anymore? *sigh*

Sorry NuTTs, it wasn't meant to be personal. Everyone can be a topic-Nazi sometimes, I guess today was your turn.....

Buy me a beer and I'll forgive you


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## TTotal (Aug 12, 2002)

> mumble mumble I'm sorry mumble mumble
> 
> Still think you're marvellous though.


Accepted mate Â ;D


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## Stu-Oxfordshire (May 7, 2002)

> Now you've said that, I feel like a mental/vocational pigmy and had better take it all back


 ;D


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## Neil (May 7, 2002)

As someone that HASN'T contributed to this thread, and HASN'T been on a hoon/cruise/meet, I think it would be good for any meet "virgins" (such as me) to have some sort of description of the activities of the day.

eg. if I knew it was a bunch of experienced drivers driving v. fast, then I would prefer to know this before I went and then potentially felt out of place in such company.

Likewise, if I was expecting a fast drive and found it was nothing more than a pootle round in the country I might get a bit pissed off, and maybe try to coerce others into driving faster?

Dunno really, just think a general guide to a meet can't be a bad thing :-/


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## TTotal (Aug 12, 2002)

Looks like thats become an accepted guideline then !

and hello again Neil...you looking at me ? ??? ;D


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## Neil (May 7, 2002)

> and hello again Neil...you looking at me ? Â ??? Â ;D


Might be, you got a problem with that? ;D (just to continue the somewhat aggressive theme of this thread )


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

> Now you've said that, I feel like a mental/vocational pigmy and had better take it all back


Please *don't* Rob, one comment is as valuable as any other :-*

I still think this discussion is most important for future events 

Keep posting, and discussing, people [smiley=thumbsup.gif]


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## jonah (Aug 17, 2002)

See what we've started Daniela ;D 

I do tend to agree with scotty ;D he has said i can follow him all the way to the Ring ;D


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

I wonder how early on in the trip I'm gonna 'ave a word in some one's ear?

(Did you get the subtle hint? ;D)


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## jonah (Aug 17, 2002)

BUT u said Â ;D 
Think i might not mention that i'm attending meets in future and just turn up,thatway you will probably get more people attending ;D 8)


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

Jonah...all these years you have been hididing!! You are one of the "rear ender" lovers too!! ;D ;D 

Nutts is right, PEACE to all the people...let them only fight the Iraqis! ;D


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

> Kev,
> 
> Is that me perchance? *cough*
> 
> ...


I never got a ticket and i aint even got a radar detector (sorry Tim, but i could not resist)     8) 8) 8) 8) 8)


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## b3ves (May 6, 2002)

> Please *don't* Rob, one comment is as valuable as any other Â :-*
> 
> I still think this discussion is most important for future events Â
> 
> Keep posting, and discussing, people Â [smiley=thumbsup.gif]


My apologies Dani, as my sarcasm was uncalled for but seemingly lost anyway. I'm sure your credentials are no doubt impressive in whatever field you operate in, but that kinda thing 'don't impress me much' :-*

Have a good weekend


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## head_ed (Dec 10, 2002)

IIRC,

Rob was never in a convoy for long anyway... 'Bye Rob..'


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

My suggestion (i think this is common sense really). If its a well attended cruise/hoon then maybe the sweeper/tail car should be owned by a more experienced/comfortable driver (not better, just more comfortable) and perhaps if that car happened to be modified, then this should in turn equal out the rubber band effect.

I have attended quite a few of the drives that people have referred to on this thread, but i also attend plenty of ride-outs on my ZX12R. Now as a pretty quick & experienced rider, usually riding the fastest machine on the ride-out, i'm more than happy adopting a sweeper role at major junctions & stop-offs. Being at the back, i also get the opportunity to stretch the bikes legs, by catching the lead pack once we're back in convoy.

This tactic works very well & as a result, we suffer very few incidents (touch wood).

We will always have differing standards of driving in a mixed bunch & differing comfort zones. I for one know that when driving with the pose (Portmeirion terminolgy & they know who they are ) that we all have a measure of each others driving styles, which makes for safe but pretty quick driving (when conditions allow).

Please can we accept some common sense here. I agree that a pre-warn of the style of drive is a good idea, but observe the public nature off this forum. Quoting there will be a fast drive round South Wales or Oxfordshire is asking for trouble from our friendly law endorsers, so best keep these references off-line. 

Have a great weekend everyone & i hope to catch you all on a drive real soon ;D 8)


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## ccc (May 7, 2002)

The idea of 'classifying' drives could be a good one, but it doesn't really tally with my experience.

Driving on roads you don't know and without a navigator can mean you concentrate rather too much on not getting left behind and lost, at the expense of your driving and enjoying yourself. It's this 'loss of control' that I find stressful.

I've been on some drives (Wales, three counties, great North run) where there have been some 'very quick' drivers/hooners - but they have also been very mindful of us poor old sods at the back, and of other road users!

I've been on 'slower' drives/cruises where the lack of thought for those not among the front few has led to a less than wonderful day, and fast ones where the experience and consideration of those at the front has led to a terrific time! Seeing how they drive, their positioning on the road, they way they use their brakes and indicators to give advance warning to us followers, instills confidence. Thanks guys - you know who you are!!

I tend now to choose/avoid drives, on dates when I'm free, according to who is going to be there. Which I know is of no earthly use as a guideline for newbies. :-/


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## hutters (Jul 16, 2002)

Like many others, I've been on quite a few drives, from the French drive last year (my first) to the London meet a few weeks ago, and the Peterbo'ro meet that kicked this whole thread off. Â None of them have been a 'posing cruise', they have all been 'drives'. Â From these experiences I have noticed 2 major differences in drives, 1 is when out on the open roads in convoy and the 2nd is driving through towns/built up areas;

For 1,it is reasonably easy for the convoy to remain together and as long as the lead driver keeps the pack tight at major junctions, etc. the back markers really don't need to speed excessively to catch up with the pack.

In towns it really is a different story, there are so many more obstacles that can split the pack up - traffic lights, other drivers, etc., etc. and then you find people driving foolishly to catch the pack up so they don't get lost.

Most of us are in the car by ourselves and so we don't have the luxury of a co-pilot to read the map and give directions, hence the pressure to keep up with the pack and the leader. Â

With this in mind I think the only guideline that is sensible is that in all cases you should always be able to keep the guy behind you in sight (and I donâ€™t mean 2 feet off the rear bumper!), if you lose sight or (s)he slows down, you slow down and then the car in front slows down all the way up to the leader. Â We had a great example of this working through Stamford on Saturday and if everyone did it the group would easily stay together through busy built up areas. Â Of course if some people are happy to make their own way to the next meeting point, itâ€™s their prerogative, but personally I like the idea of being in a group of TTâ€™s.

It is a change of mindset from keeping up with the guy in front, to looking after your mate behind you. Â A simple principle, but I think it could work very well, but still allow the drive to be the fun that it should be to all that participate.


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

> My apologies Dani, as my sarcasm was uncalled for but seemingly lost anyway. I'm sure your credentials are no doubt impressive in whatever field you operate in, but that kinda thing 'don't impress me much' Â :-*
> Have a good weekend


I didn't try to impress you, or anyone else for that matter, Rob, and your sarcasm was duly noted but I chose to ignore it!

Credentials: I, like you, couldn't give a toss about them. I think it's much more important how a person reacts and behaves.I only mentioned them because I thought it was so funny that you ... dah, dah, dah ;D

I also think this thread is far too important to take it in a direction it shouldn't be taken in.

We never met, so far anyway, and might never do: but I have the feeling we might think in similar ways!

You have a good weekend too 

And can you, please, explain velocity, speed and the laws of physics to me


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

> See what we've started Daniela ;D


Dohhh ... just WHAT have you done to your car, Jonah???? *sorry *

.... well, someone needs to start something on the forum ... else it'll get boring! So why not us ;D ;D ;D

BTW: Indian, Italien, Chinese, Cantonese, Turkish or Indian????


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

> i'm more than happy adopting a sweeper role at major junctions & stop-offs.


Oh Paul..... I almost believed you until I remembered your eyes closed well timed 6 car pass because you didn't want to be at the back


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## jonah (Aug 17, 2002)

You should see it with the Bumper removed,the Rad is the shape of ur Rear ;D  of ur car that is


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## b3ves (May 6, 2002)

> We never met, so far anyway, and might never do: Â but I have the feeling we might think in similar ways!
> 
> You have a good weekend too Â


We have met, at Blenheim last year and out on the town the night before. IIRC we stayed at the same hotel as well. I obviously didn't make much of an impression, but I won't forget your pink/green/white snake pattern jacket 

After the banality, I might actually have something constructive and relevant to add to the thread, having just returned from 4 days in France on an Audi trip. The escorted driving (500+ miles) was led by a professional. The leader made it his responsibility to ensure that he didn't lose anyone, by slowing down and/or stopping every few miles or at junctions to allow everyone to re-group. There were also tulip diagrams for each section with scheduled stops every 30 miles or thereabouts, but that takes more organisation than most of us amateurs would wish to commit.

I value the feedback from Chris (ccc) and am happy to know that she has driven with our little south west posse on numerous occasions. IMO, if the front-runners show consideration for the tail-enders, many of the perceived issues will go away.

Rob


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

Rob,

It seems they have changed it from last year. Then it was make your own way at your own pace apart from the Folembray day which was in convoy in the morning.

Didn't you find it a bit interuptive and time consuming ? Not a critisism, just a genuine enquiry.


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

> We have met, at Blenheim last year and out on the town the night before. IIRC we stayed at the same hotel as well. I obviously didn't make much of an impression, but I won't forget your pink/green/white snake pattern jacket


Hee, hee, hee ;D

One of us suffers from memory loss here  

I have NOT been to Blenheim, ever in my life!!!
You've obviously seen my jacket (and me in it!!)
So, I suggest it was at Beaulieu that we met??? on the Saturday night out in Southampton???? Yes, I was there.
But only Vlastan stayed in the same hotel as I did: in the centre of Southampton: most people stayed at Eastleigh
I shall make sure I'll introduce myself propperly at the next meet, or wear the same jacket  

BTW: I was offered Â£500 for this jacket on three different occasions during that night :


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

> You should see it with the Bumper removed,the Rad is the shape of ur Rear ;D  of ur car that is


ROFL ;D ;D ;D Jonah: just watch what you are saying!!!
Forum folk may think wrong things here!!  ;D
Pardon me: but I'm just falling over with laughter ;D ;D ;D

O.K. then: WHAT restaurant??
And *NO!!* no-one else is invited!!!!!!!!!


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

> The leader made it his responsibility to ensure that he didn't lose anyone, by slowing down and/or stopping every few miles or at junctions to allow everyone to re-group. There were also tulip diagrams for each section with scheduled stops every 30 miles or thereabouts, but that takes more organisation than most of us amateurs would wish to commit.


This is exactly what my Peak Cars' Drives are all about:

each drive takes ~1 week solid of preparation with professional done route books (tulip diagrames), designated stops every ~25 to 30 miles or so and a lot of info for sight seeing on the way.

I drive the route at least 4 times before each event:-

1: plan using map and first drive to note milages
2: drive again (different car to minimise odometer reading errors), checking milages, draw maps (tulips)
3: check for clues, for people who want to entre the "clue finding mission" - sorry, I can't call it Treasure Hunt oficially, else I'll have to pay Â£3.50 to the MSA for each car
Do the route books including a lot of local info
4: do the drive 1 to 2 days prior to the event again to make sure all roads are open (devise detours if necessary!)

You are right: it takes a LOT!!!! of organising and it is very time consuming indeed!!!
But, to me, it's worth it if I have a happy bunch of participants


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## davidg (Sep 14, 2002)

Dani all your meets/drives i have been on are exelent ,very very well organised many thanks for all your hard work on these [smiley=cheers.gif] [smiley=thumbsup.gif] [smiley=thumbsup.gif]
keep up the hard work 
david .


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

> keep up the hard work Â
> david .


Thanks David :-*

yes, I will keep my standards: that's what Peak Cars' Drives stand for!!

BTW ...  

O.K. see "events bord"


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

> We have met, at Blenheim last year and out on the town the night before. IIRC we stayed at the same hotel as well. I obviously didn't make much of an impression, but I won't forget your pink/green/white snake pattern jacket
> 
> Rob





> One of us suffers from memory loss here
> 
> I have NOT been to Blenheim, ever in my life!!!
> You've obviously seen my jacket (and me in it!!)
> ...


Hey guys you are so funny!! Please don't drink and post here as you both suffer from loss of memory.

You have met in Beaulieu of course last year. And I was there too and this is where I met Rob too!

Do you both remember me at least? ;D


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

> Do you both remember me at least? Â ;D


Yes I remember you, Vlastan, vaguely anyway.
Who suffers from memory loss then :
didn't we stay at the same hotel  ;D ;D .... and even used the gym :-X


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## privatebags (Feb 3, 2003)

Well I have read all the posts on this topic and found them very interesting.

I find it quite sad that some people donâ€™t seam to understand the point that TTotal made about the people at the back have to drive faster to keep up.

They obviously have never driven at the back of a group of cars, or have taken unnecessary risks to keep up with the cars in front.

I also noted some attempts to halt this topic, what ever happened to free speech. ??? ???

I was shown a thread on the Audi Sport forum about this very topic, and they thought that this was a valid subject to talk about, and have come up with some sensible ideas. I would advise everyone to take a look at it.

I also think that we need to look at the organisation of events, if you suggest a meet then you should organise the meeting place, the route, and who is going to lead.

If you canâ€™t do the work Â [smiley=book2.gif] then donâ€™t suggest the meet.

We should not rely on the good nature of other members to do the organisation / planning for us.


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

> Sorry, Rob,
> 
> I don't think it's tosh at all: the drivers at the back might be held up by whatever and then have to catch up with the leaders to re-join the pack and will, therefore, have to drive faster than the people at the front who'll still travel at the same speed as before.
> No quantum theory, extremely simple law of physics


privatebags:

see my point re-iterated above

Not much more to add apart from the fact that I know for a fact that quite a few ******** members agree with me on this point, as it in not very difficult to understand, if you think about it!!!


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