# So this weeks Autocar and Auto Express - best handling cars



## garyc (May 7, 2002)

....any one read these?

One did Oulton Park and one did Knock.

Usual suspects plus a few oddities.

Clio 197 'underpowered' - probably testament to it' good chassis.

Focus ST rated well.

That the Cayman did so well is no surprise. Neither the Exige S.

Pretty sure that the new 997 gt3 would have cleaned up had it been available.

One mag had Gallardo above 997t and the the other vice versa.

Z4m coupe mixed results (but only 10ths slower than the M6)

DB9 sport fared well.

RS4 fares well -but better suited to road

Caterham CSR of course fastest (but too hard core for gen road)

I homed in on first review of new 335Ci SE in UK, and was surprised to see it lap Knock 1 sec quicker than the RS4.  On skinny wheels and comfort suspension...the twin turbo 305 hp six looks to be a real good un. Tuners already extracting 380+hp from it.

Bodes well for the M sport and ultimately M3 versions.

Anyone else read them? I only had a chance to skim.


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

Gary,

I hate to correct people as you well know, but Auto Express ran the cars at Croft in N.Yorks :lol: :wink:

The article threw up some surprises but more relating to the lap times. The Mazda MPS, Mini Cooper S Works, BMW 335Ci & Audi RS4 all lapped quicker than the more track focused Clio 197. The BMW 335Ci was less than 1 second slower than the RS4 round the track which in turn was only 0.4sec slower than the Cayman S.

Liked the way they state the Focus ST nor Golf GTI can match the Clios attitude. They also state that the Gallardo's steering, high-speed stability, traction & chassis balance are all better than the 911 Turbo (997).
Some shocks in the 0-60 (claimed-actual) times as well, such as Mazda MPS is claimed at 6.6 but the test managed 5.7, the Golf GTI is claimed at 7.2 but the tesy managed 6.5 & the 997 Turbo is claimed at 3.9 but the test managed 3.5 (that must be neck snapping acceleration). The 911 Turbo came 7th in the overall tests, with the BMW 335Ci, RS4 Saloon, MX-5 2.0, Gallardo, Renaultsport Clio 197 & Cayman S taking the number 1 slot.

Makes very interesting reading & worth a punt for the non Auto Express regular readers.


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## Widget (May 7, 2002)

I'll get a copy to read on my train journey down to the big smoke tomorrow.


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

If the Gallardo did well against the Porkers, one wonders how the forthcoming R8 will fare... using a tweaked Gallardo chasis plus magnetic dampers, a lighter engine and a lighter body.


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

jampott said:


> If the Gallardo did well against the Porkers, one wonders how the forthcoming R8 will fare... using a tweaked Gallardo chasis plus magnetic dampers, a lighter engine and a lighter body.


Good point. According to Auto Express, they state the Gallardo is the more capable sports car over a 997 Turbo (bit of a shocker really) 

I doubt VAG would be stupid enough to offer a more capable sports car for half the money in the R8 vs Gallardo but who knows.


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

W7 PMC said:


> jampott said:
> 
> 
> > If the Gallardo did well against the Porkers, one wonders how the forthcoming R8 will fare... using a tweaked Gallardo chasis plus magnetic dampers, a lighter engine and a lighter body.
> ...


Why not? The Gallardo about to get a big powerhike of its own, and VAG already known for having competing cars, eg Seat Lean Cupra, Golf GTI, plus the obvious S3/R32 etc

The R8 won't be "half the money", but in V8 guise, should offer a near-current Gallardo experience for 2/3 of the cost, whilst the V10 version will slot perfectly in the range similar to the current Gallardo, except by the time that one is lanched, the Gallardo itself will have gone forward another notch or two.

If you look at it another way, and knowing that the R8 is a reality not a concept, Audi would be silly to charge Gallardo cash for a "commoners" version - you'd pick the Lambo every day - so they'll offer the R8 for less than that - right into 911 money for the V8, and 911 Turbo money for the V10, and offer the Gallardo as the "range topper" with an even more powerful engine.

But just as later VAG models based on the same platform are dynamically improved, so the R8 will be every bit as good as the current Gallardo. OK, so the V8 version will be down on power, just as the 911 is down on the 91 Turbo, but you wouldn't sniff at a 4.2L V8 FSI with 420-440bhp, mid-mounted in an aluminium and space-age body/chasis weighing a good couple of hundred kg less than the equivalent mount for that engine (RS4).


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## kmpowell (May 6, 2002)

jampott said:


> If you look at it another way, and knowing that the R8 is a reality not a concept, Audi would be silly to charge Gallardo cash for a "commoners" version - you'd pick the Lambo every day - so they'll offer the R8 for less than that - right into 911 money for the V8, and 911 Turbo money for the V10, and offer the Gallardo as the "range topper" with an even more powerful engine.


Can't argue with any of that Tim. Spot on IMO.


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

Can't argue with this either:










Launch planned for Paris, end of this month. Iceman surprisingly quiet about it, perhaps he doesn't get to deal with the proper cars - just the TT.

I know that's just a photoshop, but its gotta be close. LED running lights nicked from the S6 ;

The headlights and grill, plus the sideskirts and interior are currently the only major guessing points, since several test mules have been sighted regularly in both Germany and Arizona running almost entirely undisguised.

Finally Audi launch a car which BMW can't compete with and go head-to-head with Porsche. Despite the posturing, the new TT is no match for the Cayman, but I think the R8 could have the 911 licked. Finally.


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## kmpowell (May 6, 2002)

Time for a new thread I think, as it's getting slightly hijacked.


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

I'd rather talk about something new than the same boring old crap about Caterhams. :lol:


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

jampott said:


> Can't argue with this either:
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Totally agree Tim & you know how i like the R8 & if it had any kind of seating behind the drivers seat i'd have followed through with my order & taken one next year (engine would have depended on launch price). It's always looked stunning from the 1st concept pictures to the almost official launch pictures.

If i was a gambling man, i'd say it WONT match the Gallardo or the 911 Turbo in the overall Sports Car crowns, although i DO think it will be one of the more worthy contenders. Reasoning is down to pedigree & Audi just don't have that whole sportscar thing going on. They make excellent cars & have produced some crazy rapid S & RS motors, but i just think they're quite in the same league YET.

It will certainly ruffle some feathers, but i'm not convinced it will take the crown. It also falls in sort of it's own bracket which does make an exciting proposition as the 911 Turbo is basically Â£100K & the Gallardo over Â£130K so if the range topping R8 is priced between 70 & 80K then it should have it's competition beat. I'd still love one but can't do away with at least some seating in the back.


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

jampott said:


> Can't argue with this either:
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You can argue. It is a pig in a poke. Audi are mooted to be selling Lambo because of Porsche control at VW. forgetting the dubious aesthetics, even if the R8 could match an upper echelon spec 977, politically it will never be allowed whilst the Porsche stake is so high.

Audi can't sell an Â£80k sports car. especially a rebodied and deliberately dumbed down Gallardo. Only a rich fool would pay that.

And neither can BMW - witness poor M6 sales and residuals - which is why they are rumoured to be up or Aston Martin.

R8 has no pedigree of it's own and Audi no provenance in that sector.

It will go the same way as the VW Phaeton, except the Phaeton is the better resolved design.


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

jampott said:


> I'd rather talk about something new than the same boring old crap about Caterhams. :lol:


You've never driven one I'd guess. But then you've never driven a 997 either.

Or an R8. But then no one has. Though you seem convinced it's a winner. Must be the Audi heritage. :lol:


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## genocidalduck (May 19, 2005)

jampott said:


> W7 PMC said:
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> > jampott said:
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Ive posted that in a straight line the RS4 kept right up the ass off a Gallardo that i know was pushing it. Not an inch in it over half mile or so both starting at 70ish. Like you say put that in the R8. I would think it would easily be a match for it.


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

genocidalduck said:


> jampott said:
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> > W7 PMC said:
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Even i have to concede straight line vs sports car sometimes. No doubt the RS4 & R8 & M5 & M6 etc. can keep up with the very top marque sports cars in a straight line & VMAX is a good example where the RS6 was able to at best beat & at worst match some very high pedigree motors (including Lambo's, Ferrari's & Turbo Pork), but apply the same scenario into the twisties or on a track & the M5 can't match a good Lambo or Porsche & i think the R8 will perhaps suffer a similar fait. I really hope it doesn't & i hope it's a belter but as Gary said, Audi don't have the same heritage or pedigree for true sports cars.

In the V8 R8, have they just put a sleak body on basically an RS4?? with the same logic applying to the V10 or have they gone balls out & designed a true sports car from the ground up?? I for sure can't wait to see the proper road tests & have a drive when they arrive into dealers.


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

You think they've put a "sleek body on an RS4"?

You're joking, of course... :roll:

You make it sound like they've changed a few body panels and stuck a new badge on.

What they've actually done is taken a revised Gallardo chasis and dropped in the engine from the RS4, only with a few tweaks such as dry sump etc.

I strongly expect that the R8 will be closer to the Gallardo than something like the VX is to the Elise.. As close as many other VAG cars.

Certainly shares more with the Gallardo than the RS4.

No, I haven't driven one - but I'm a fan of the engine, I love the looks and really want Audi to put a package together which stuffs one up the competition.

Anyway, as Paul has pointed out, as a 2-seater its not direct competition for the 911 range in general. And at the sort of volumes it will be produced in (I hear 2000 units for the first year?) its hardly likely to steal many sales from Porsche (or anyone else for that matter).

Audi raised the bar with the TT, and whilst I'll admit it wasn't a dynamically superb car, it ruled the market sector for 5+ years, spawned many competitors and made everyone else raise their game. Yes, the Porsche was a better car, but was also (in Boxster form) much much more expensive when specced to a similar level.

If that's what Audi can do if they reuse a Golf chasis, the competition must be quite worried to see what they can do with a Lambo one... :lol:


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

jampott said:


> You think they've put a "sleek body on an RS4"?
> 
> You're joking, of course... :roll:
> 
> ...


I couldn't agree more Tim, however are you sure Audi are using a revised Gallardo Chassis as i've not heard this?. The only true aspect of Lambo i'd heard was relevant to the R8 is the V10 engine in the top of the range model, but that lump can already be found in the new S6 & S8 & i'd expect the same lump in the RS6 assuming it's launched. I know it also is unlikely to be an RS4 chassis, but i assumed Audi would use a stable in-house chassis (perhaps A6 derived) for the R8.

My gut feel is the car will be more a flashy sports car looking RS4 or S6 than a Lambo, but i hope to be proved wrong. If pricing & your assumptions are correct, i'd expect the R8 to take sales away from the C2, C2S & C4S. I don't think the R8 would sway die hard Pork fans but many buy the 997Turbo as an impulse purchase  & believe me many E60 M5 owners are ordering 997Turbos as a result of these SMG problems. I know of 7 from the M5 Board alone who've ordered in the last few weeks.

We'll just have to wait & see & like you i really hope Audi nail this car & it is what most hope it to be. Surprised at the unit expectations, as i think 2000 in the 1st year is a huge number for this market space.

If reports are to be believed then the car is only about 6ths away from hitting the streets so we'll not have to wait long to find out if they've cracked it.


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## V6 TT (Sep 24, 2002)

. . . I think the point really is can anyone say they would really be prepared to spend Â£70/80k on an Audi sports car and get involved with the Audi dealer network for after sales and service as that's just not a viable proposition to me no matter how good the R8 is, they just haven't got a clue in that department and it really counts for a lot.

D


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## tehdarkstar (Jul 24, 2006)

V6 TT said:


> . . . I think the point really is can anyone say they would really be prepared to spend Â£70/80k on an Audi sports car and get involved with the Audi dealer network for after sales and service as that's just not a viable proposition to me no matter how good the R8 is, they just haven't got a clue in that department and it really counts for a lot.
> 
> D


True. When I have said my dealer last week that I was taking my TT to the race track he said: "You shouldn't do that!". If I buy an Â£80K sports car some day in the future and someone tell me that I shouldn't take it to a race track, I would be right pi$$ed off.

Audi servicing also needs to realize that that kind of car need a complete different care, as they're not family cars that are used to commute to work and to the supermarket every day.


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

V6 TT said:


> . . . I think the point really is can anyone say they would really be prepared to spend Â£70/80k on an Audi sports car and get involved with the Audi dealer network for after sales and service as that's just not a viable proposition to me no matter how good the R8 is, they just haven't got a clue in that department and it really counts for a lot.
> 
> D


Another valid point is why spend 80k when Â£50k buys you the BEST...the Cayman S?

I got mine yesterday...it is so much fun...and the engine noise is simply amazing.

So many people stare at it as it goes past...a lot more attention than the TT got 4 years back.

I am pleased to be driving the best sports car of the year.


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## ir_fuel (Jan 10, 2003)

V6 TT said:


> . . . I think the point really is can anyone say they would really be prepared to spend Â£70/80k on an Audi sports car and get involved with the Audi dealer network for after sales and service as that's just not a viable proposition to me no matter how good the R8 is, they just haven't got a clue in that department and it really counts for a lot.
> 
> D


On the other hand, the price difference in labor and parts between Audi and Porsche has to be somewhere, now doesn't it?


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

vlastan said:


> V6 TT said:
> 
> 
> > . . . I think the point really is can anyone say they would really be prepared to spend Â£70/80k on an Audi sports car and get involved with the Audi dealer network for after sales and service as that's just not a viable proposition to me no matter how good the R8 is, they just haven't got a clue in that department and it really counts for a lot.
> ...


Pleased for you V.

I'm sure it is more fun than the TT & you get more attention, as given it's twice the price that should answer that point. Although i'm a fan of most Porsches & i do quite like the Cayman S, plenty of folk would not want the attention a Porsche attracts, however i don't think any Porsche would get more attention than an R8, as 911's, Boxters & Caymans are common place on UK roads so the Audi is something of an unusual car for people to 1st spot & it no doubt will get plenty of attention, both good & bad.

I can't wait to see an R8 in the flesh & even more to drive one.

Enjoy your Cayman, they're a grower.


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## Widget (May 7, 2002)

vlastan said:


> Another valid point is why spend 80k when Â£50k buys you the BEST...the Cayman S?
> 
> I got mine yesterday...it is so much fun...and the engine noise is simply amazing.
> 
> ...


Good for you Nick. Just wait 'til she loosens up a bit.

There's no denying that the Cayman S is a peach of a car.


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

Widget said:


> vlastan said:
> 
> 
> > Another valid point is why spend 80k when Â£50k buys you the BEST...the Cayman S?
> ...


Officially there is no run in period. The manual states to take it easy for the first 3k kms it advises you to take longer trips and not rev the engine when it is cold or participate in motor racing!! I try to change gear at 5k rpm or less but I have exceeded this a couple of times. The engine noise is so beautiful. I have done 300 miles in only 2 days!!


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