# English roads and drivers suck!



## kevbeans (Jun 14, 2013)

After spending a few days driving round Germany and Belgium I've decided English roads especially motorways are crap. The way everything is set up over there works so much better, drivers stay out of the way and there are few jams apart from near the cities at rush hour. Within 5 mins of being back on English roads I was getting frustrated at being stuck behind slow drivers :x . To make things worse I live in a town with loads of oaps who all drive at least 5mph under the speed limit.


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

this is a common feeling among many people who venture abroad in their cars,, others just come back moaning about mad foreign drivers :?


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## Pugwash69 (Jun 12, 2012)

I'm not so sure. After 3 weeks in Spain, we realised how clear and well organised UK roads signs and layout are. 
In Spain, many of the villages on the outskirts lack tarmac. It was rough gravel for the final few miles to a villa. Roundabouts are a mad free-for-all with no lanes or lane discipline. You simply enter a roundabout, under or overtake around it and exit across the front of people. Scale that to a 6 "lane" city roundabout and it was scary.
The Spanish see indicators as an optional extra. You can spot the tourist rental cars because they indicate.

We returned to the UK and breathed a sigh of relief.


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

" and some come home complaining of mad foreign drivers ".,,, i go to spain a couple of times a year and love it,, roads are good and "progress can be made ".. :wink: , sure if you are oot in the sticks ( campo ) then sometimes there are gravel roads to contend with ( that is main reason we have a subaru out there ) but in general they are fantastic driving roads , how anyone cannot enjoy driving in Spain is beyond me..


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## Hilly10 (Feb 4, 2004)

kevbeans said:


> After spending a few days driving round Germany and Belgium I've decided English roads especially motorways are crap. The way everything is set up over there works so much better, drivers stay out of the way and there are few jams apart from near the cities at rush hour. Within 5 mins of being back on English roads I was getting frustrated at being stuck behind slow drivers :x . To make things worse I live in a town with loads of oaps who all drive at least 5mph under the speed limit.


And you have only just found out. Give me France anyday


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## Pugwash69 (Jun 12, 2012)

roddy said:


> how anyone cannot enjoy driving in Spain is beyond me..


Don't get me wrong, we enjoyed it a lot. We took the SLK over so had the roof down every day in April. The motorways are a joy with 120kmph limits and no one on them for miles. The issue mainly was the NUTS city driving, and it seems parking on roundabouts is normal too. We decided to park at a metro terminal and ride into Valencia.


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

Valencia is a beautiful place,, such wonderful modern archietecture and old wide streets, and the beaches 8) , but so / too much to see on foot !, busy traffic for sure, and got to keep your wits about you,,   ( btw,, what is wrong with parking on roundabouts ? )


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

There was a bit of an improvement here when they announced FPNs for lane hogging but enough people seem to have forgotten again to bring about the same congestion and frustration.


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

it is all becoming clear now,,, english people cant drive because they cant read the road signs :lol: :lol:


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## Kell (May 28, 2002)

I've got to say when we drove to the South of France a couple of years ago, it was an absolute pleasure.

COming back, we had to deal with the M25... :roll:


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

I think the thing about France is that the locals don't use the motorways because of the tolls, so it's a tourist happy holiday elite whizzing their way along. Spain and Portugal and Greece have rubbish road signs, dangerous junctions andno decent maps, you come back to the UK and it all suddenly becomes so organised and clear as far as signs go - it's just a shame that the standard of driving isn't organised as well. They seem to have a much better education of lane discipline in Germany. In the UK it sadly seems to be a selfish attitude of lane hogging and blocking that prevails - no perception of cooperation for the greater good :?


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## Kell (May 28, 2002)

John-H said:


> I think the thing about France is that the locals don't use the motorways because of the tolls, so it's a tourist happy holiday elite whizzing their way along. Spain and Portugal and Greece have rubbish road signs, dangerous junctions andno decent maps, you come back to the UK and it all suddenly becomes so organised and clear as far as signs go - it's just a shame that the standard of driving isn't organised as well. They seem to have a much better education of lane discipline in Germany. In the UK it sadly seems to be a selfish attitude of lane hogging and blocking that prevails - no perception of cooperation for the greater good :?


Here's a good example of that. Germans reacting to an ambulance.


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

love the first car,, move into the middle lane and brake :? ,,,,,must have been an englander on holiday !!! :roll:


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

Whilst it was all very organised and selfless, if they'd all stayed off the hard shoulder, the ambulance would have been able to use that instead of threading its way between the cars towards the end.


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

Kell said:


> John-H said:
> 
> 
> > I think the thing about France is that the locals don't use the motorways because of the tolls, so it's a tourist happy holiday elite whizzing their way along. Spain and Portugal and Greece have rubbish road signs, dangerous junctions andno decent maps, you come back to the UK and it all suddenly becomes so organised and clear as far as signs go - it's just a shame that the standard of driving isn't organised as well. They seem to have a much better education of lane discipline in Germany. In the UK it sadly seems to be a selfish attitude of lane hogging and blocking that prevails - no perception of cooperation for the greater good :?
> ...


Don't know what it's like down south, but if I'm ever in traffic and an ambulance is behind me, I move asap. Pretty much everyone else does the same.I'd imagine that the view an ambulance driver has in traffic on the M8 or A77 would be the same as that German video.


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## Pugwash69 (Jun 12, 2012)

Spandex said:


> Whilst it was all very organised and selfless, if they'd all stayed off the hard shoulder, the ambulance would have been able to use that instead of threading its way between the cars towards the end.


That's what I was thinking.


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## kevbeans (Jun 14, 2013)

Kell said:


> John-H said:
> 
> 
> > I think the thing about France is that the locals don't use the motorways because of the tolls, so it's a tourist happy holiday elite whizzing their way along. Spain and Portugal and Greece have rubbish road signs, dangerous junctions andno decent maps, you come back to the UK and it all suddenly becomes so organised and clear as far as signs go - it's just a shame that the standard of driving isn't organised as well. They seem to have a much better education of lane discipline in Germany. In the UK it sadly seems to be a selfish attitude of lane hogging and blocking that prevails - no perception of cooperation for the greater good :?
> ...


I saw it happen exactly like that, everyone just cleared the road and made an easy path for the ambulance to travel down. Certainly wouldn't happen like that over here.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

kevbeans said:


> I saw it happen exactly like that, everyone just cleared the road and made an easy path for the ambulance to travel down. Certainly wouldn't happen like that over here.


No, over here most people would just leave the hard shoulder empty like they're supposed to and the ambulance would use that.

In all the times I've seen an emergency vehicle working it's way through traffic on the motorway, the only times I've seen it get bogged down have been when people try to get smart and start making new lanes for it (blocking the hard shoulder in the process).

Of course, there's always some twunt who thinks they're too important to wait in the tailback, so they drive down the hard shoulder (with their hazards on, in the vain hope we'll think they have a genuine emergency and aren't a twunt after all)


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

Do all German Autobahns have hard shoulders? That might explain some confusion. Anyway, I was talking about general lane discipline not an emergency . I'm told that they all pull over after overtaking and get fined if they don't.


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

dont know about the fines , but it is common practice everywhere to pull over once past,, in france they have a nice thing, when they come up behind some " pale rider " who seems to have got lost in the outside lane, instead of flashing the head lights in what can be considered as an agressive english type way they just put on their indicator to let the person know that they want past .


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

roddy said:


> instead of flashing the head lights in what can be considered as an *agressive english type way* they just put on their indicator to let the person know that they want past .


 :roll:


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## kevbeans (Jun 14, 2013)

Spandex said:


> kevbeans said:
> 
> 
> > I saw it happen exactly like that, everyone just cleared the road and made an easy path for the ambulance to travel down. Certainly wouldn't happen like that over here.
> ...


Where there are hard shoulders they are generally empty. I'm not sure why it works like this in Germany, maybe its so they don't have to avoid broken down vehicles or cause a problem when they come to slip roads which are a little more complicated in Germany. For whatever reason they do it, it seems to work pretty well.


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

Spandex said:


> roddy said:
> 
> 
> > instead of flashing the head lights in what can be considered as an *agressive english type way* they just put on their indicator to let the person know that they want past .
> ...


dont know what you gettin funny about,,in england it generally is looked upon as being aggresive when you flash your lights to try to get someone to move over . :x


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## Pugwash69 (Jun 12, 2012)

John-H said:


> Do all German Autobahns have hard shoulders? That might explain some confusion. Anyway, I was talking about general lane discipline not an emergency . I'm told that they all pull over after overtaking and get fined if they don't.


In Spain they pull back in after every since overtake, even if it means they will need to pull straight back out a second or two later for the next vehicle. I thought that changing lanes excessively is more dangerous.


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

Pugwash69 said:


> John-H said:
> 
> 
> > Do all German Autobahns have hard shoulders? That might explain some confusion. Anyway, I was talking about general lane discipline not an emergency . I'm told that they all pull over after overtaking and get fined if they don't.
> ...


de'ja vu ..


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## J•RED (Feb 10, 2013)

After driving in America a few weeks ago I do miss the "anything goes" attitude on the freeways. Have to have eyes in your arse but if you're confident enough you can make good progress. I have to keep reminding myself I'm not allowed to undertake here :roll:

Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

J•RED said:


> After driving in America a few weeks ago I do miss the "anything goes" attitude on the freeways. Have to have eyes in your arse but if you're confident enough you can make good progress. I have to keep reminding myself I'm not allowed to undertake here :roll:
> 
> Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App


It's not illegal to pass on the left here. It's only illegal if you change lanes to do so. The law on undertake was changed in 1972 according to an accident investigator who was on here some time ago. He gave details of someone driving a Range Rover being prosecuted for knocking a motorcyclist off their bike, who was passing on their left, i.e. the Range Rover driver caused the accident by not looking to their left when changing lanes.

Clearly you have to be careful of people not looking but why pull across three lanes and back again to get past a middle lane hogger who's half asleep or too ignorant to consider others?


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

J•RED said:


> After driving in America a few weeks ago I do miss the "anything goes" attitude on the freeways. Have to have eyes in your arse but if you're confident enough you can make good progress. I have to keep reminding myself I'm not allowed to undertake here :roll:
> 
> Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App


if you like the " anything goes " attitude then you should try Beirut or Manila , has to be experienced to be believed,,, absolutlly fantastic ,, when i rented a car recantly in Beirut the manager told me i have to drive like Schumaker , i told him i would do my best  ( all round vision required )


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## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

Spandex said:


> roddy said:
> 
> 
> > instead of flashing the head lights in what can be considered as an *agressive english type way* they just put on their indicator to let the person know that they want past .
> ...


I do that too. It works.


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## NoMark (Jul 6, 2011)

I lived in France for 6 years and their standards of driving are atrocious.

As John H has said, as a general rule they don't use the Autoroutes because of the tolls. Therefore, they are generally traffic free or only used by business users/tourists. Those that do use the Autoroutes don't use them too well in my experience.

One of their rules when overtaking on a dual/multi-carriageway road is to indicate and leave the indicator on until they return to the inside lane. Problem is many of them then leave the indicator on after completing their maneuver, so that anyone approaching from behind is unsure what their intentions are.

They also have their fair share of lane hoggers too.

Driving standards in the cities/towns are similar to what has been described in relation to the Spanish, they're quite aggressive and very selfish. Lane discipline is poor and don't get me started on roundabouts, they don't have a clue how to use them.

In fact, my French colleagues lauded the UK driving standards!


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## J•RED (Feb 10, 2013)

John-H said:


> J•RED said:
> 
> 
> > After driving in America a few weeks ago I do miss the "anything goes" attitude on the freeways. Have to have eyes in your arse but if you're confident enough you can make good progress. I have to keep reminding myself I'm not allowed to undertake here :roll:
> ...


Thanks John for the history I didn't how the ruling came about, but did know that you can as long as you're not changing lanes 

Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App


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## kevbeans (Jun 14, 2013)

John-H said:


> J•RED said:
> 
> 
> > After driving in America a few weeks ago I do miss the "anything goes" attitude on the freeways. Have to have eyes in your arse but if you're confident enough you can make good progress. I have to keep reminding myself I'm not allowed to undertake here :roll:
> ...


I wonder what the police would do if you were to undertake one on the motorway, I'll bet they would pull you over. Not sure I'm going to try it out but I'll post my results if I do


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

kevbeans said:


> John-H said:
> 
> 
> > J•RED said:
> ...


Get a dashcam and a copy in print of that law before you think about it lol.


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

Highway code rule 268

"*Do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake*. In congested conditions, where adjacent lanes of traffic are moving at similar speeds, traffic in left-hand lanes may sometimes be moving faster than traffic to the right. In these conditions you may keep up with the traffic in your lane even if this means passing traffic in the lane to your right. Do not weave in and out of lanes to overtake"

This is from yougov website. It clearly says "do not overtake on the left" To me this means you can not undertake in normal free flowing driving conditions even if a plonker is hogging the middle or outside lane, but it makes allowances for passing traffic slowing to turn right or in slow moving contested traffic.

It's another gray area I think.

personaly I wouldn't undertake.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

The problem is, the highway code isn't the law, but going against it can be used as evidence of careless driving. So, people will often say that undertaking isn't illegal, but that's not strictly true.

I've definitely read on forums of people being pulled by the police for undertaking when they've not changed lanes to do it (although that's just their side of the story). I think it really depend a lot on the circumstances and how they police interpret your actions. Personally I try to avoid doing it.


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## igotone (Mar 10, 2010)

The question used to come up a lot on the 5ive-O forum and the general opinion of the traffic cops was that they wouldn't be concerned about undertaking, even if you changed lanes to do so, but what they would pull you for was changing lanes to undertake and then cutting sharply back in front of the car you've just undertaken.

Obviously, individual cops may view things differently.


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

Memory plays tricks with the exact circumstances of the post but here's the original post referring to undertaking. The key point is that you must not change lanes to "undertake" but if you are in a left lane and come across a slower vehicle to your right them no offence is committed by passing them on the left.

Read this:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=257125


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

John-H said:


> pull across three lanes and back again to get past a middle lane hogger who's half asleep or too ignorant to consider others?


Driving back from Chester tonight I did just that: lonely car in the middle lane with the driver oblivious to the fact that they could have moved to lane 1. So I moved from lane 1 all the way out to lane 3 then back into lane 1 in front of the car I'd overtaken. Why are some drivers so fast asleep behind the wheel that they don't notice what's going on around them [smiley=bigcry.gif]


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

You know danny , I have done that myself , on many occasions , let's say , educate by example ,,,,, waste of time dear , total waste of time ,, now I prefer to just move up the inside of them and just as I am about to go past them give agood blast of the horn ,,, that sometimes wakens them up ,, sometimes not ,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I apreciate that is not how everybody would behave ,, but hey ho , wtf


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

Once I came across a guy in a trilby hat in the middle lane doing 60 mph. I indicated and moved to the middle lane behind him. I waited, nothing. I indicated and pulled into the third lane, accelerated past, indicated left, middle lane, indicated, left lane etc. He was still in the middle lane. Then I slowed down and let him overtake me. I repeated the same overtake around him, slowed down, let him overtake me again.. etc... Three times I circled him like this. He was completely oblivious :roll: I got bored...


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

The middle lane hog, doing 60 mph on an empty motorway, would get a hefty fine served in Germany


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## NoMark (Jul 6, 2011)

A3DFU said:


> The middle lane hog, doing 60 mph on an empty motorway, would get a hefty fine served in Germany


And so they should Dani.

I travel to Germany a lot and use the Autobahns. The standard of driving is way better than that in the UK. In fact, most of the time, if you come across an example of bad driving the perpetrator is usually non German. The Dutch are pretty poor and they use the German Autobahns a lot!


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

NoMark said:


> A3DFU said:
> 
> 
> > The middle lane hog, doing 60 mph on an empty motorway, would get a hefty fine served in Germany
> ...


Tell me more; I am German and I passed my test first time in Berlin back in 1970 [with Herr Schumacher as my driving instructor]  :wink:

I still drive regularly in Germany and I had my TT on the Autobahn many many times. Always a joy 

The thing is; you can't afford bad driving in Germany because:
a) things happen very quickly due to the higher speeds people drive over there plus 
b) cameras are pretty well hidden and you just don't know when you're on 'candid camera' so bad driving can get pretty expensive very quickly :roll:


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## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

I don't think I'd last five minutes in Germany...


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## kevbeans (Jun 14, 2013)

I'm back in Germany in the morning, not good though as I'm in a Mercedes Sprinter limited to 70mph


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

I feel for you Kev


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