# DSP BOSE (Finally) Unplugged! A How-To Guide



## Jersey Paul (Aug 1, 2007)

Is the Bass solution that simple.
The system is descibed as Bose Surround Sound so......
I guess its like listening to a 5.1 DVD soundtrack in stereo on your home cinema amp.
I have some surround encoded CD's I will give this a try and report back.


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## Merl (Jan 8, 2008)

Thanks for this, excellent write up...

just a couple of questions..

Firstly, I take it you dont have to have the Symphony head unit, the standard one will do...as long as it reads MP3's which I believe it does... (I havent ordered Symphony because the the dealer told me the only difference was the cd loader...)

Secondly.....to sum up we just need to concert all our music into high quality MP3 files of a good bit rate (all of mine are ripped to 192k....) and using the LAME decoder...is that right?


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## Jersey Paul (Aug 1, 2007)

Yes that sounds correct.
Just quickly though, I layed my hands on the only surround encoded CD I had ( John Williams - 40 years of Movie Music ) and it sounded very dynamic compared to the stereo CD's.
This may be the answer to the Bose bass issue.
We need some more people to try this.
As I mentioned previously, in all literature the Bose system is described as Bose Surround Sound.
It not explained anywhere though that it needs 5.1 or surround encoded software.
Let's all do some ripping, burning & listening and report here.
Paul


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## oli660 (Jan 19, 2008)

So to get the benefit you need to use the CD player rather than the ipod connection? or have i missed something?

The 5.1 music idea is a bit of a strange one to me.. i didn't realise that the bose speakers were designed for 5.1 and to be honest i have no idea why, I'm now going back to thinking of just putting in a custom solution with just 2 speakers.


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## Evil Derboy (Jan 25, 2008)

NICE POST and a lot of work has gone into it but I'm afraid I can't agree.

The bose amplifier should be able to properly convert the sound coming from the head unit to produce a proper bass signal from any source whether it's a standard CD or an MP3 file. Granted a poor quality copy such as one that has been recorded with a very low bitrate will sound rubbish but it shoudl be able to cope with industry standard CDs and MP3s that are recorded at the 'normal' bit rate.

If it was "state of the art" then it would be able to do this very simply. *If you bought a DVD player, would you find it reasonable that you had to recode your DVD's and burn new copies so that they would play on it properly? Would you say that it was ahead of it's time or would you take it back to the shop?*

Although I'm sorry to say it your post reads like it was produced by someone who is trying to justify their purchase. The system may well play 5.1 encoded Discs better than standard CD's and MP3's but that is a design flaw rather than a state of the art, special feature...

Oh and PS - By the time the sudio signal reaches the Bose Amp it's already been decoded from MP3/FM/CD to a native audio signal so it's all the same. So saying that it will work best with an MP3 isn't quite right either.


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## Merl (Jan 8, 2008)

have to say, if its right that you need to convert your music to mp3 discs then as above says thats quite a flaw, I know we are all part of an iPod generation but some of us still jsut want to go down to hmv and buy a cd to play in the car.....if I have just paid Â£500 for BOSE and need to convert this cd to mp3 just to make it worthwhile than thats a bit shabby!

I wonder how it works if you encode mp3's and play them through an mp3 player (I use the microsoft Zune....) via the aux input....


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## oli660 (Jan 19, 2008)

haudi-zn said:


> It CERTAINLY works for me...........
> 
> What I failed to mention is as fiollows:
> 
> ...


OK, so for that you need a digital signal which would be flagged on the input as 5.1, hence the need for mp3-surround rather than normal audio, which it will try to convert using normal processing or even just play in stereo, thus not taking full advantage of the speaker system, yes?

In this case i suppose it is essential to use a CD as source as i suspect other inputs are passed into the bose amplifier via analogue?


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## Evil Derboy (Jan 25, 2008)

oli660 said:


> haudi-zn said:
> 
> 
> > It CERTAINLY works for me...........
> ...


Sorry but this is rubbish on so many levels:

1. 5.1 surround sound is decoded from a digital source via Digital signal processor. The bose website makes mention of this but there is nowhere that this states that the Bose amp does this.

2. MP3's are digital yes but so are CD's the both just use a different file format and different compression techniques

3. The DSP that forms part of the Bose system recieves a signal from the head unit which has already decoded the signal from the source (i.e. Ipod, CD mp3 player). It then decides how to split the signal up to feed the speakers. So 5.1 encoding doesnt even come into it at this stage unless the headunits supply a direct link to the BOSE amp?

4. Even if it does almost every system in the market that handles dolby digital 5.1 or DTS has a built in DSP that enhances normal recordings by using discrete technologies such as Dolby Pro Logic or otherwise adding effects such as "Concert Hall" etc.

5. Again even if the Bose unit decodes a native digital signal that is passed undecoded from the head unit there would be no difference whatsoever from a normal CD and any other digital source such as MP3 player/ipod or other.

The only possible explanation for you experiencing better sound is that when you are recoding the music to MP3 that the audio gain is much higher than the original source which would result in a louder volume and distorted, boomier bass NOTHING MORE.

From the website:

"...Stereo CDs are presented in five channel surround sound..."

So normal CDs should work just as well as 5.1 recordings.


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## oli660 (Jan 19, 2008)

Evild Derboy said:


> oli660 said:
> 
> 
> > haudi-zn said:
> ...


3.

The way i'm thinking of it is like this. Say you have a 2 channel input to an amp capable of decoding dolby digital/dts/whatever. If this is simply a 2 channel signal, it's going to be processed as something like DPL II rather than DD. If you've got a 5.1 DD/DTS signal going into the amp, the amp is going to process it as DD/DTS in a true 5.1. The latter would obviously provide a much better sound than the former. The way I understood it the CD could provide a raw digital signal to the BOSE unit and hence be decoded by the latter, however i've not really studied the workings of the system on the BOSE site, i'm just trying to think how it would explain what this person is saying.

5. Good point.


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## Evil Derboy (Jan 25, 2008)

oli660 said:


> Evild Derboy said:
> 
> 
> > oli660 said:
> ...


With a native 5.1 track the signal is split into 6 different parts and presented to the decoder (i'm simplyfing here by the way) which then produces sounds from each one of 6 speakers (1 of these being the subwoofer).

With a 2 channel track the decoder will use algorythms to decide which speaker so produce what sound and add effects based on your selections (i.e. Concert Hall, Movie mode etc.

The Bose system (i believe) has 10 speakers so even with a 5.1 track it still has to used digital signal processing to decide how to present the complete sound image via 10 speakers instead of the normal 6.

Going back to the poster's orginal comments he was defending the system saying that it was just too cutting edge for normal CDs. My point is that if it so "cutting edge" it should work with normal 2 channel CDs just fine. Also if you try and recode a 2 channel CD to a multichannel MP3 all you will be doing is using a piece of conversion software to add 3D effects to the original 2 channel track and recode it to MP3. Which isn't the same thing as discrete 5.1 so the Bose system will still treat it as a 2 channel track anyway.

On top of all this only SACD (Super Audio CDs) have the ability to contain a discrete 5.1 signal. Normal CDs can't do it and the headunit cant play SACDs anyway.


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## jakeman (Jan 30, 2008)

Gee i am glad i didn't order Bose previous threads had mentioned problems but to have to go to these extremes to get "special" sounds is just beyond my level of expertise.

I just want to switch it on and play CD's and the Radio without having to go back to Univercity to get a degree in RF technology.

The TTC i test drove for a day had Bose and it only sounded OK nothing better than my bog standard system i have now.

:?


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## Rebel (Feb 12, 2005)

Nice story with a lot of crap. Sorry to say so.

A5 and A4 has a much better system and sound. Just give it a try.
I think they have learned from the mistakes they made in the MK2.
Nothing in the story above can change that.

If things where that simple as you say, this information was already told by BOSE. Because they now that there are a lot of complains at the system in the MK2.

For me it's a closed book. The sound is crap, and i don't bother anymore.
I'll never buy any Bose-product whatso-ever.


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## R80 FOS (Mar 25, 2007)

Have to agree with Rebel here.

I think the key thing to remember here is that the Bose system produces the 'Bose Sound'. Nearly all Bose DSP systems produce a less than flat repsonse sound which always results in a frequency cut between 160 - 300 hz and a slight boost at over 2 khz. This results in that slightly hollow yet dynamic sound which is the same whether you listen to a Bose car system, a home cinema system or even their 802/501 PA system (which is rubbish by the way if any of you have experience of sound engineering).

When the car is stationary and with a little EQ adjustment the system can sound 'quite pleseant' but the second you start the engine you will experience my point above and you will lose a lot of sound between the 160 - 300 hz area as these frequencies are also released into the cabin from the engine. To prove this you can turn the system up and notice that sub bass (anything up to 120 hz) is still present in the audio but the 160-300 (mid/high bass) has all but vanished.

Try turning the treble down (not completely) and the bass up a few notches and don't be afraid to then drive the system a little harder. Yes it's true that the DSP optimises the sound for each individual speaker but only in the way that Bose want it to (to produce their sound), it doesn't actually mean that each individual speaker isn't capable of more.

This is the same in all Pro PA systems but the difference is the manufacturer allows you to adjust the DSPs to your liking and allow you to control the compression / frequency range of each speaker.

At this point in time commercial MP3 and copied CD's are never going to sound quite as good as an original 2 channel or 5.1 CD despite what people might tell you or what the Bit Rate or conversion is - if you really listen you can hear the compression working on certain frequencies therefore reducing the quality - you just can't beat a proper 'PRESSED' cd that has been manufactured from a 'GLASS MASTER'.

(I say commercial MP3 as in the Pro Audio world it is possible to record and copy at 96.1 bit rate from the source).

Also,

The previous post about converting the 5.1 sound into 10 channel sound (one for each speaker) isn't quite right either.

5.1 Sound doesn't mean 6 speakers (left, right,center, rleft, rright, sub) it means 6 channels. You'll see from available PDF digrams that most of the smaller subs are coupled with a tweeter. These 2 speakers will only use 1 channel of your sound - that's what the crossover is for.

For example,

Lets say that the signal needs to be sent to the left door (tweeter and sub), the signal will be read - DSP will process (which includes a preset crossover frequency for the 2 outputs to the left door) - and the 'left' signal in your surround sound will be sent to the left door across two speakers - the tweeter for the mid/high and the sub for the low frequencies.

All of this is basically saying the source will always be best from an actual disk, the DSP is producing the famous 'tinny - empty' Bose sound, don't be afraid to Cut upper frequencies as opposed to always boosting lower frequencies.

I have Bose ordered on my TTS and am looking forward to hearing it. I have a flat response mic (microphone that hears all frequencies evenly) coupled to my laptop so when I get my car I will play pink noise (NEVER USE WHITE NOISE) through the system and see what exactly the Bose system is producing - I can then give you a graph frequency readout to see what is actually going on in the car and what adjustments you can do (without modding) to the EQ to make it sound its best.


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## Guest (Feb 24, 2008)

R80 FOS said:


> I will play pink noise (NEVER USE WHITE NOISE)


Can you play pink noise in a white TT?
Theres a few on here that might find the information useful.

Apart from that i barely understood a word you wrote, although i wish i did.

On an even lighter note, my Bose goes up to 11. :wink:


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## R80 FOS (Mar 25, 2007)

DUO3 NAN said:


> Can you play pink noise in a white TT?


Shouldn't be a problem but might clash with Magma seats.


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## Guest (Feb 24, 2008)

R80 FOS said:


> DUO3 NAN said:
> 
> 
> > R80 FOS said:
> ...


Bugger, always a problem.

Ive been running my music through the satnav+ on sd cards at a higher bitrate and its sounds good to me.
Play the same song through my ipod connection and its flat and the music loses its vibrancy.

Although my hearing isn't all it should be i can tell a very clear difference.

I've also plugged my ipod into a friends mk2,he doesnt have Bose and he uses the symphony HU and i have to say, its sounds another notch down again from the satnav+.


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## R80 FOS (Mar 25, 2007)

DUO3 NAN said:


> Ive been running my music through the satnav+ on sd cards at a higher bitrate and its sounds good to me.
> 
> Play the same song through my ipod connection and its flat and the music loses its vibrancy.


My point exactly, this is the compression you can hear.


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## TTonyTT (Apr 24, 2006)

R80 FOS said:


> I have Bose ordered on my TTS and am looking forward to hearing it. I have a flat response mic (microphone that hears all frequencies evenly) coupled to my laptop so when I get my car I will play pink noise (NEVER USE WHITE NOISE) through the system and see what exactly the Bose system is producing - I can then give you a graph frequency readout to see what is actually going on in the car and what adjustments you can do (without modding) to the EQ to make it sound its best.


That could be interesting to see.

I generally like Bose equipment, though I admit that's more for the aesthetics than the pure sound quality, and Bose having earned some brand loyalty from me some years back. And whilst I do think the sound clarity in the TT is good, the bass is - to my ears - lacking.

My understanding is that the TT's Bose system is compromised by the lack of space available in the cabin to house the sub woofer. Be interesting to see whether your analysis confirms that, or whether there are other causes in there.

Thanks for the detailed post.


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## R80 FOS (Mar 25, 2007)

TTonyTT said:


> That could be interesting to see.
> 
> My understanding is that the TT's Bose system is compromised by the lack of space available in the cabin to house the sub woofer. Be interesting to see whether your analysis confirms that, or whether there are other causes in there.


Absolutely,

The one thing I liked about the Bose in the MK1 is that the sub was in the centre so you had all of that space between where the speaker was located and the dashboard directly infront. It's this space that produces the depth in the bass. It actually takes around 30ft to fully reproduce a full subwoofer sound (sine wave), the space in the car is obvisouly no way near this but it does help!! It sounds much better than say placing the sub behind the seat as there is nowhere for the air to reflex. The mounting of the driver and the space behind is also an extremely important factor. I'll be interested to see the use of space in the TTS especially for the sub. If the driver doesn't have much room around its mount then a lot of sound produced gets wasted as thermal energy behind the cone - losing bass!!!


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## Evil Derboy (Jan 25, 2008)

R80 FOS said:


> TTonyTT said:
> 
> 
> > That could be interesting to see.
> ...


I agree with this. My points in my previous post were explaining why it doesnt matter the source i.e. CD/MP3. Obviously higher bitrates will sound better but they won't effect how the DSP processes the 6 channels.

As for my point about 10 speakers. Well, these are no doubt split between tweeter and mid/bass units and then a sub also. However my point was that trying to encode a 2 channel CD into a 5.1 channel MP3 was a waste of time and wouldn't make any difference to how well the DSP will make the music sound. It certainly won't/can't improve the bass output from the subwoofer.

But I think we're back onto another topic here that's different from the opening post.

I wonder if it would be possible to retrofit a 3rd party sub in the boot of the car to Subwoofer-out of the Bose system. This would allow for a bigger subwoofer unit which in theory should supply better bass....


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## R80 FOS (Mar 25, 2007)

Evild Derboy said:


> I agree with this. My points in my previous post were explaining why it doesnt matter the source i.e. CD/MP3. Obviously higher bitrates will sound better but they won't effect how the DSP processes the 6 channels.


This depends on whether the Bose DSP uses dynamic processors across the input signal or not. For example, if the DSP is programmed to always output X dB higher at say 1khz than at 800 hz but the input is different to this then the DSP will make up the difference, slightly altering the sound. If they are standard DSPs then this will not happen and you will hear a not so even sound. You're right that these frequency changes won't alter how the 6 channels of audio are produced.



Evild Derboy said:


> As for my point about 10 speakers. Well, these are no doubt split between tweeter and mid/bass units and then a sub also. However my point was that trying to encode a 2 channel CD into a 5.1 channel MP3 was a waste of time and wouldn't make any difference to how well the DSP will make the music sound. It certainly won't/can't improve the bass output from the subwoofer.


Completely agree, it is a waste of time trying this as the "improvement" you think you hear is actually only the upper harmonics of the original frequency (in this case the bass frequencies) which are deliberately enhanced at studio mastering stage so that artists' tracks sound pretty good on most systems whether a B&O HiFi, CD Walkman or a full blown Wembley Stadium sized VDOSC Concert Line Array.



Evild Derboy said:


> I wonder if it would be possible to retrofit a 3rd party sub in the boot of the car to Subwoofer-out of the Bose system. This would allow for a bigger subwoofer unit which in theory should supply better bass....


Definately worth a try although I would also insert a dedicated graphic EQ or 3rd party DSP (Klark Teknik are good) so that you can squeeze out the right frequencies of the sub and make a nice linkwitz-riley crossover into the existing car system.


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## jmoors (Mar 24, 2007)

All highs and no lows? It must be BOSE.


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## markTT225 (Apr 8, 2004)

Evild Derboy said:


> I wonder if it would be possible to retrofit a 3rd party sub in the boot of the car to Subwoofer-out of the Bose system. This would allow for a bigger subwoofer unit which in theory should supply better bass....


I am currently building a sub mounted in the spare tyre recess, and using a mono sub amplifier fed from the pre-amp out from the headunit. I'll post a how-to once it's finished


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## Poddyus (Feb 15, 2008)

Before reading this i hadnt thought to try a SACD in a car....

Just give Destinys Child- SACD a spin....and wot a difference!!!!

On SACD there are 5.1 encoded layers and enhanced 2 channel....not sure which it was reading (although i assume it was the 2 channel) but the difference is very noticeable....

The only problem with this is....a) SACD is hard to get b) significantly more expensive!!!


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## Janitor (Jul 2, 2007)

Poddyus said:


> The only problem with this is....a) SACD is hard to get b) significantly more expensive!!!


and c) it was a Destinys Child CD 



markTT225 said:


> I am currently building a sub mounted in the spare tyre recess, and using a mono sub amplifier fed from the pre-amp out from the headunit. I'll post a how-to once it's finished


Choppity chops then, don't let us hold you up! [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

Look forward to seeing it Mark


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## PJLarge (Mar 6, 2007)

markTT225 said:


> I am currently building a sub mounted in the spare tyre recess, and using a mono sub amplifier fed from the pre-amp out from the headunit. I'll post a how-to once it's finished


Me too although I'm not doing it, I've got it in with the local ICE specialist. I've gone for a JL 10W3v3 sub, Evolution C5 front components and a Genesis Profile 4 Ultra to run it. It will be a totally stealth install, I should have it back tonight - I will post some photos of the finished result.

PS, an interesting discovery. They have 8" drivers in the doors as standard.

Phil.


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## markTT225 (Apr 8, 2004)

PJLarge said:


> markTT225 said:
> 
> 
> > I am currently building a sub mounted in the spare tyre recess, and using a mono sub amplifier fed from the pre-amp out from the headunit. I'll post a how-to once it's finished
> ...


I think yours will probably knock my install into a cocked hat :lol: Mine is just using an elemental designs SQ10 shallow mount with a kenwood mono amp. It might not have a great deal of SPL being 300W RMS, we will have to see :?

How much are you paying for the install (if you don't mind me asking  )?


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## PJLarge (Mar 6, 2007)

markTT225 said:


> How much are you paying for the install (if you don't mind me asking  )?


Errr... good question! I will let you know when I get it back!


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## Janitor (Jul 2, 2007)

12 - 1500 smooth ones..?


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## PJLarge (Mar 6, 2007)

Janitor said:


> 12 - 1500 smooth ones..?


About that I should imagine, to be honest I don't have a final figure yet but there's about Â£900 worth of hardware gone in there (amp, speakers, sub, interconnects etc), the rest will be labour, but I've known them for a long time and they were keen to do the work as a project / demo car. They've had it for a week and a half now, mainly doing bits here and there. I figured being flexible will suit them as well as my pocket


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## Janitor (Jul 2, 2007)

Should be stonking though to be fair [smiley=thumbsup.gif]


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## oli660 (Jan 19, 2008)

You see this is why i'm siding with a custom setup instead of the standard fit. Once the fascia thing is out i'll save Â£2k on the satnav+ and bose and can put a custom system in, probably for a bit more but it should surely kick it's arse!


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## markTT225 (Apr 8, 2004)

PJLarge said:


> Janitor said:
> 
> 
> > 12 - 1500 smooth ones..?
> ...


  Blimey , I think I'm going to be too embarrassed to show my humble little set-up now  . Mine comes to less than Â£200! :lol:


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## PJLarge (Mar 6, 2007)

I could have done it for considerably less - I've got plenty of ICE sat in the shed from previous cars but it didn't seem right to put old equipment in a pretty new car - plus you always get a neater install the first time stuff is installed, after kit has been in a car for a while it does get pretty beat up. Don't forget, I'm also completely replacing the front speakers with not cheap conponents and I'm having a professional do it. Although you won't see a thing when the boot is open as it'll all be hidden under the boot floor, I wanted a presentable install if I want to show someone. Hopefully this will be the case


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## markTT225 (Apr 8, 2004)

PJLarge said:


> I could have done it for considerably less - I've got plenty of ICE sat in the shed from previous cars but it didn't seem right to put old equipment in a pretty new car - plus you always get a neater install the first time stuff is installed, after kit has been in a car for a while it does get pretty beat up. Don't forget, I'm also completely replacing the front speakers with not cheap conponents and I'm having a professional do it. Although you won't see a thing when the boot is open as it'll all be hidden under the boot floor, I wanted a presentable install if I want to show someone. Hopefully this will be the case


Certainly sounds like it should be a top knotch install. Are you replacing the tweeters in the dash as well?

I'm looking forward to the pics . They might give me a few ideas on some tweaks I could do to mine as well :wink:


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## PJLarge (Mar 6, 2007)

Yes the tweeters have also been changed out. These are the components I've gone for:
http://mobile.jlaudio.com/products_comp ... omp_id=441

It's all been set up to run from the front line out of the factory head unit, and I have a seperate sub level control to turn the bass up or down independantly. That control is hidden but within easy reach. I've left the factory rears in there still powered off the factory amp, they're more for rear fill than anything. Photos will be forthcoming when I get my mitts on it!


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## GhosTTy (Oct 10, 2007)

Interesting. I'm looking forward to seeing the pics. Are you using the SatNav+ HU?


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## PJLarge (Mar 6, 2007)

GhosTTy said:


> Interesting. I'm looking forward to seeing the pics. Are you using the SatNav+ HU?


No, I don't like the RNS-E - I had one in the A3 I had previously and just didn't get on with it although it looks good. I've got the Symphony in mine.


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## GhosTTy (Oct 10, 2007)

PJLarge said:


> GhosTTy said:
> 
> 
> > Interesting. I'm looking forward to seeing the pics. Are you using the SatNav+ HU?
> ...


Ah, well that will be why your Bose sound is so poor and lacking in bass. It's pretty good in mine. The bass can be felt through the seats at fairly modest volumes. It not chavtastic, but its solid and real.


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

And its endless fun flipping through the MP3s and been able to see the name. I like the detail screen.


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## GhosTTy (Oct 10, 2007)

Toshiba said:


> And its endless fun flipping through the MP3s and been able to see the name. I like the detail screen.


In case you've not found it out yet - if you create folders with the album name and then press the 'return' button it takes you to all the albums. Use your knob to scroll/search albums and then press to get the tracks. For some reason the default screen is at track level, not album folder. Don't know why? :?


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## markTT225 (Apr 8, 2004)

Come on then PJ - *where are the piccies?*   
Or are you crusin the streets with your subs blaring :wink:


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## PJLarge (Mar 6, 2007)

It's back, but we still have some finishing to do. I needed the car back so the final trim finishing isn't done yet. As I now have effectively a whole boot build below the standard floor trim I need to work out the best location for the tools, they've built a compartment for them so I will try and get time over the week to put them in.

At present there is nothing to see at all with the boot floor in, which is just as I wanted it.

Most importantly, the sound. It's ffffffff...ahem...quite loud  
The crossovers have adjustment for gain of the tweeter and mid independantly, I set the tweeters on +2 last night, but I think I'll take them back down to 0 now I've spent some time listening to it.

I will take some photos as I get a minute, it's probably good to show it in its eight tenths finished stage as it shows where everything is.


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