# -carbon buildup problem with TFSI - serious worry



## schumy

guys i saw these threads and horrific (indeed repulsive) photos about carbon build up problems on two year old RS4s with direct injection engines. It seems the same problem will affect our TTs (mine is a 2.0 TFSI). Once again Audi is not providing any proper/long term fix or solution (Audi "cleaned" without taking the intake manifold off) nor is it prepared to reimburse us if we get an independent shop to do it.

It is probably too late even if I install a catch can now. One of the (2007) RS4 owners suffering from this problem only had 40,000km mileage and an ineffective "cleaning" by Audi).

I am extremely worried and thinking of selling my car asap.

Any thoughts?

first thread http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=334489

second thread http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=322587

photos:




























this cannot be happening to a 2-year old high end European sports car...in comparison the seat sagging problem is nothing~!

this is after cleaning by an independent shop:


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## egi

use a catch can.. or better yet, downtube


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## Poverty

just vent it to the atmosphere.

A hard driven car fed on V-power will not soot up as bad as that RS4. Never seen a case as bad as that actually.


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## R5T

egi said:


> use a catch can.. or better yet, downtube


I know what a catch can is, but a "Downtube" don't ring any bells.


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## schumy

Forge catch can is a good choice? My 2.0TFSI has already donw 16000km, is it too late even if I install a catch can now?

is the installtion an easy DIY or needs to be done by a mechanic with proper tools?

thanks mate.


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## schumy

Poverty said:


> just vent it to the atmosphere.
> 
> A hard driven car fed on V-power will not soot up as bad as that RS4. Never seen a case as bad as that actually.


hey man, there are at least 2 very bad cases as shown in the two quoted threads. The photos linked are from 2 different RS4s. They are in the US and Sydney, and I assume they have good quality gasoline there. I am quite worried about my car, Audi really sucks, I will be staying away from it going forward.


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## egi

R5T said:


> egi said:
> 
> 
> 
> use a catch can.. or better yet, downtube
> 
> 
> 
> I know what a catch can is, but a "Downtube" don't ring any bells.
Click to expand...

-- not legal in some places --
something similar to this, but without the exhaust vacuum.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4387972&page=1

just a tube pointing downwards letting gas evacuate on its own (there's pressure from inside anyway). -


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## egi

Poverty said:


> just vent it to the atmosphere.
> 
> A hard driven car fed on V-power will not soot up as bad as that RS4. Never seen a case as bad as that actually.


in this case.. type of fuel doesnt matter in FSI engines. it does not touch the outsides of the intake valves..


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## schumy

i wonder what do all those Golf GTi and FSI A4 owners have to do...damn this is another irresponsible design defect.


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## Poverty

egi said:


> Poverty said:
> 
> 
> 
> just vent it to the atmosphere.
> 
> A hard driven car fed on V-power will not soot up as bad as that RS4. Never seen a case as bad as that actually.
> 
> 
> 
> in this case.. type of fuel doesnt matter in FSI engines. it does not touch the outsides of the intake valves..
Click to expand...

But it all relates back to the fuel. Carbon soot deposits come from the fuel being burner. Higher quality fuel that burns more cleanly, will soot less than the cheaper, lower quality fuel.


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## R5T

egi said:


> -- not legal in some places --
> something similar to this, but without the exhaust vacuum.
> http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4387972&page=1
> 
> just a tube pointing downwards letting gas evacuate on its own (there's pressure from inside anyway). -


OK, i would not use a blue hose for it and the picture show that it's also to late for that car.


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## R5T

Does "Carbon build up" have any effect on/in the turbo. ?
Does a turbo also look like that inside. ?


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## egi

R5T said:


> Does "Carbon build up" have any effect on/in the turbo. ?
> Does a turbo also look like that inside. ?


it's possible to have dirty turbo/intercooler because one tube leads to the intake before the turbo, the other leads to the intake manifold.


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## egi

schumy said:


> i wonder what do all those Golf GTi and FSI A4 owners have to do...damn this is another irresponsible design defect.


it's a characteristic of 'most' FSI engines since fuel no longer touches the outside part of valves. this problem also occurs to porsche cayenne FSI engines, RS4 4.2 FSI etc.

some lexus direct injected engines (i think) already developed some sort of fuel spray before the valves to help clean them. otherwise, water/methanol injection does a good job keeping it clean.


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## schumy

some forum suggests this BG cleaning stuffs, not sure if it works and the costs etc.






Audi sucks, they have lost my business. Imagine all those popular Gold GTis etc in the second hand market have limping engines like this just after 1-3 years of driving, totally unbelievable.


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## LEO-RS

Schumy, I think you may be getting a tad carried away with yourself here.

Where is the evidence of any engine failures? How many tfsi engines have been produced and how many have suffered from engine failure due to carbon build up?

If every single engine blew up come 2-3yrs, or even half, i would think about getting rid, but surely this 'problem' is so rare,its not even worth bothering about?

It's not even the same engine, RS4 being a total different beast.

Trying to put a little perspective on it here.


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## schumy

hi Mitchy

I hope you re right that the 2.0 TFSI are different as I have had enough troubles with my TT already.

Anyway, looking at what happened to those RS4s and Audi's responses/actions are more than enough for me to make up my mind.

Thanks.


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## hanzo

schumy said:


> Poverty said:
> 
> 
> 
> just vent it to the atmosphere.
> 
> A hard driven car fed on V-power will not soot up as bad as that RS4. Never seen a case as bad as that actually.
> 
> 
> 
> hey man, there are at least 2 very bad cases as shown in the two quoted threads. The photos linked are from 2 different RS4s. They are in the US and Sydney, and I assume they have good quality gasoline there. I am quite worried about my car, Audi really sucks, I will be staying away from it going forward.
Click to expand...

If i may voice my opinion, the US has very bad fuel with the highest being 95oct!!!!!!!! im not sure about sydney... its also how you drive the car...

I regularly push my engine and rev it high when its nice and warm letting all the stuff out... but only in the UK and Europe is the fuel clean and you get propa Shell Vpower!


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## BLinky

you get even better stuff in germany. their fuel is the same rating as touring car fuel grade without the alcohol.


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## R5T

BLinky said:


> you get even better stuff in germany. their fuel is the same rating as touring car fuel grade without the alcohol.


100 Oct.


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## mikef4uk

A little worrying to say the least, I doubt fuel grade will make any difference as the fuel does not inject past the inlet valve anymore, there is a thread on Audizine with a UK S3 owner with the same issue when he took his motor apart for a big turbo (and so much more) re build.
I guess we either clean the inlet tracts/valves, remove the breather to a catch pot (with all the asociated oilly smell) or put up with it, or just wave Audi bye bye


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## conneem

schumy said:


> Poverty said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am quite worried about my car, Audi really sucks, I will be staying away from it going forward.
Click to expand...

Well you will have to stay away from all the new Porsche Direct Injection engines also.

http://www.planet-9.com/cayman-boxster- ... buy-4.html

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ub ... 10&page=12

I have seen this on GTI's on Golfmkv.com also but have never heard of a failure. Audi/VW were although not the first to introduce DI engines but they were probably the first to do so en masse. It is relatively a new engine technology and Audi could not fit a catch can system from factory due to emissions constrictions and also you couldn't expect every owner to want to have to empty an oily can filled with foul smelly gunk every couple of weeks.


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## schumy

shouldnt Audi have adopted a design similar to Lexus' to clean the intake manifold and valves? apparently they just let that happen with their design.

I am not an engineer but it doesnt take one to tell such severe and rapid carbon buildup will first of all adversely affect engine performance, and if goes on unresolved may lead to more serious failures.

Thanks for reminding about the new DI Porsches. I will wave VAG bye bye!

Look at this 2006 2.0T GLI Golf after 93k miles, I can expect the same for my TT...sigh.
To me this is way more serious than the seat sagging problem, the only difference is that very few can take and share photos of their intake manifolds and valves!!!










http://forums.jettamkv.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3715


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## Poverty

R5T said:


> BLinky said:
> 
> 
> 
> you get even better stuff in germany. their fuel is the same rating as touring car fuel grade without the alcohol.
> 
> 
> 
> 100 Oct.
Click to expand...

you lucky bastards lol.

In the UK we have 99oct v power which is about £1.14 a litre, or if I want better, you can get 102octane fuel but its only sold in very few places and costs £2.46p a litre [smiley=bigcry.gif]


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## egi

again, it does not matter what fuel you use.. these engines inject fuel directly into the combustion chamber.. not outside.

every 2.0TFSI engines will therefore experience this.

Your options:
1. catch can will lessen it.
2. VTA catch can will lessen it more. (illegal in pollution-strict countries)
3. downtube/slashcuts will stop it. (illegal in pollution-strict countries)
4. water/methanol injection does a good job preventing it.
5. leave it stock and have bad idling later on.


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## schumy

guys will using seafoam help? any side effect? thx.


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## egi

schumy said:


> guys will using seafoam help? any side effect? thx.


not so effective in removing these hardened substances.

you can clean it though. http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4611119


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## steve--m

I had a VTA catch on my last car and it stank to high heaven. Always had passengers asking why my car smelt like it was on fire.

No clean, painless way around this problem.

I think Senator has installed a Forge catch can on his car for reference.


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## Poverty

egi said:


> again, it does not matter what fuel you use.. these engines inject fuel directly into the combustion chamber.. not outside.
> 
> every 2.0TFSI engines will therefore experience this.
> 
> Your options:
> 1. catch can will lessen it.
> 2. VTA catch can will lessen it more. (illegal in pollution-strict countries)
> 3. downtube/slashcuts will stop it. (illegal in pollution-strict countries)
> 4. water/methanol injection does a good job preventing it.
> 5. leave it stock and have bad idling later on.


I think we have crossed wires somewhere. Where does the sooting carbon deposits come from then, if its not coming from the process of burnt fuel?


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## egi

Poverty said:


> I think we have crossed wires somewhere. Where does the sooting carbon deposits come from then, if its not coming from the process of burnt fuel?


oil vapor. / pcv gasses.


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## brittan

Two possible sources:

Crankcase gasses which used to be vented to atmosphere but are now fed back to the engine to digest them.

Unburnt fuel; assuming the engine has exhaust gas recirculation then a portion of the exhaust gas is fed back to the engine to reduce NOX (oxides of nitrogen) emissions.


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## Poverty

brittan said:


> Two possible sources:
> 
> Crankcase gasses which used to be vented to atmosphere but are now fed back to the engine to digest them.
> 
> Unburnt fuel; assuming the engine has exhaust gas recirculation then a portion of the exhaust gas is fed back to the engine to reduce NOX (oxides of nitrogen) emissions.


so therefore it all relates back to the type of fuel used.


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## egi

Poverty said:


> so therefore it all relates back to the type of fuel used.


sure. let us know if you'll be able to achieve such by using different fuel..   it would be great news..

i doubt you would..


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## bozzy96

Oh great !! something else to worry about !!! :x :x :x


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## Poverty

egi said:


> Poverty said:
> 
> 
> 
> so therefore it all relates back to the type of fuel used.
> 
> 
> 
> sure. let us know if you'll be able to achieve such by using different fuel..   it would be great news..
> 
> i doubt you would..
Click to expand...

v-power burns more cleaning, uses cleaning additives and agents, how comes if the problem is as bad as you say, the problem is featured more on other forums. We fit catch cans, but there isnt that much gunk in there as you would have thought going by your pics. Maybe its because the majority of us use nothing but v-power?


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## mikef4uk

Poverty said:


> egi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Poverty said:
> 
> 
> 
> so therefore it all relates back to the type of fuel used.
> 
> 
> 
> sure. let us know if you'll be able to achieve such by using different fuel..   it would be great news..
> 
> i doubt you would..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> v-power burns more cleaning, uses cleaning additives and agents, how comes if the problem is as bad as you say, the problem is featured more on other forums. We fit catch cans, but there isnt that much gunk in there as you would have thought going by your pics. Maybe its because the majority of us use nothing but v-power?
Click to expand...

Just ignore what everyone is telling you about the direct injection and just keep using the V Power, yours will be the only one without this build up..........honest [smiley=sleeping.gif] [smiley=dude.gif]


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## Poverty

mikef4uk said:


> Just ignore what everyone is telling you about the direct injection and just keep using the V Power, yours will be the only one without this build up..........honest [smiley=sleeping.gif] [smiley=dude.gif]


the problem is still there, but lessened


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## egi

Poverty said:


> mikef4uk said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just ignore what everyone is telling you about the direct injection and just keep using the V Power, *yours will be the only one without this build up*..........honest [smiley=sleeping.gif] [smiley=dude.gif]
Click to expand...

that is just plain false.
i've never used anything lower than top grade fuel.. yet even the hose that leads the gasses outside my car builds up dirt (thick) inside.. how much more build up would you get if you return everything back to the intake and manifold.??


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## conneem

schumy said:


> Thanks for reminding about the new DI Porsches. I will wave VAG bye bye!


Better stay away from BMW DI and Mitsubishi GDi engines also then, it is a new problem posed by direct injection.

http://www.mbclub.co.uk/forums/147754-post7.html

http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/index.htm?md=260 ("what to watch out for" section mentions carbon build up and failure at 60k miles)

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthrea ... on+buildup

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthrea ... on+buildup

it is just that DI engines are relatively uncommon that this has not been widely seen before


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## fuscobal

Let me chime in with my experience since I've already rebuilt my engine with forged rods and race bearings due to a bearing failure on the crankshaft ( factory defect...one bearing destroyed, the others looked as new). My car has about 85.000Km and here's how my valves looked like when I opened up the engine and after cleaning :

http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/3867 ... upape1.jpg
http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/1383 ... upape2.jpg
http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/399/forumsupape3.jpg
http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/5351/forumsupape4.jpg
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/7074 ... upape5.jpg
http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/303/forumsupape6.jpg
http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/4074 ... upape7.jpg
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/4040 ... upape8.jpg
http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/4175 ... upape9.jpg
http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/2935 ... pape10.jpg
http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/3687/forumsupape11.jpg
http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/4963 ... pape12.jpg

The gas around here is pretty good since I can use very high settings on Revo software without timing retard (even 9-8-9 on SPS). It seems these deposits will be there no matter how good the gas is but it depends how fast they will build. The solution would be a PCV delete( reroute the smoke under the car) or a catch-can. The PCV system was conceived for environmental purposes but the price payed is we get choked engines with time. What I noticed after cleaning the valves :

1) engine was smoother at idle (carbon buildups can yield small misfires).
2) I gained a lot of low end torque wich made me really happy (driving around town at low speeds in 2nd can be very annoying if you don't have low-end torque).

PS : I guesstimate the deposits removed from my valves had about 150-200 grams !!!


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## hmetwally

egi said:


> again, it does not matter what fuel you use.. these engines inject fuel directly into the combustion chamber.. not outside.
> 
> every 2.0TFSI engines will therefore experience this.
> 
> Your options:
> 1. catch can will lessen it.
> 2. VTA catch can will lessen it more. (illegal in pollution-strict countries)
> 3. downtube/slashcuts will stop it. (illegal in pollution-strict countries)
> 4. water/methanol injection does a good job preventing it.
> 5. leave it stock and have bad idling later on.


Where would the downtube be on a TTS then? how do one go about slashcutting it?


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## Poverty

hmetwally said:


> egi said:
> 
> 
> 
> again, it does not matter what fuel you use.. these engines inject fuel directly into the combustion chamber.. not outside.
> 
> every 2.0TFSI engines will therefore experience this.
> 
> Your options:
> 1. catch can will lessen it.
> 2. VTA catch can will lessen it more. (illegal in pollution-strict countries)
> 3. downtube/slashcuts will stop it. (illegal in pollution-strict countries)
> 4. water/methanol injection does a good job preventing it.
> 5. leave it stock and have bad idling later on.
> 
> 
> 
> Where would the downtube be on a TTS then? how do one go about slashcutting it?
Click to expand...

You make your own


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## Alva8193

i have a vta eurojet catch tank and have meth setup on my car so im hoping this will keep the carbon build up down


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## schumy

Dear Fuscobal

Thanks for posting those photos, which are worth a thousand words.

I can understand dont mind too much factory designs relatively cheap home appliances like flat screen tvs or even washing machines with a limited life, but for many people a car is a mjor spending and some may even develop sentimental value with it, so this kind of engine design which requires a major overhaul after relatively low mileage is totally unbelievable and unacceptable.

Who would want to buy a 2-yr-old second car with an engine in that shape!? Show some pics of those valves to a prospective R8 buyer and see.


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## Wallsendmag

I'll stick with the V6 thanks.


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## mikef4uk

egi said:


> Poverty said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mikef4uk said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just ignore what everyone is telling you about the direct injection and just keep using the V Power, *yours will be the only one without this build up*..........honest [smiley=sleeping.gif] [smiley=dude.gif]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> that is just plain false.
Click to expand...

Yep I know.....................I was being sarcastic


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## al fa cager

mikef4uk said:


> Yep I know.....................I was being sarcastic


I found it funny...

Anyway, on a serious note; you'd be better off changing the engine oil frequently and of the best possible quality rather than using a particular fuel.

This is clearly a PCV issue -- "Positive Crancase Ventilation" for those that don't know what that means. It's where the vapours from the crankcase are routed into the engine intake to be burnt and processed by the exhaust catalyst. The vapours are a mixture of oil vapour and combustion chamber "blow-by".

I change my engine oil as soon as it starts to go dark brown; I never let it get black. This is not based on anything more scientific than gut-feel. You can buy 4l of Mobil 1 for 25 quid at Costco.


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## mikef4uk

al fa cager said:


> mikef4uk said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep I know.....................I was being sarcastic
> 
> 
> 
> I found it funny...
> 
> Anyway, on a serious note; you'd be better off changing the engine oil frequently and of the best possible quality rather than using a particular fuel.
> 
> This is clearly a PCV issue -- "Positive Crancase Ventilation" for those that don't know what that means. It's where the vapours from the crankcase are routed into the engine intake to be burnt and processed by the exhaust catalyst. The vapours are a mixture of oil vapour and combustion chamber "blow-by".
> 
> I change my engine oil as soon as it starts to go dark brown; I never let it get black. This is not based on anything more scientific than gut-feel. You can buy 4l of Mobil 1 for 25 quid at Costco.
Click to expand...

I know a couple of Audi techs, they are having issues with some of the cars that have been on 'long life' service and driven 'nicely' shall we say! I think I will do the Forge system, it's got to help, i';m just waiting for a reply from one of our southern hemisphere members who has already done this mod, and had to mod the mod if you get my drift


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## hmetwally

Alva8193 said:


> i have a vta eurojet catch tank and have meth setup on my car so im hoping this will keep the carbon build up down


And did that create problems with fumes etc?
and how do you find / install this catch tank?


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## Senator

hanzo said:


> the US has very bad fuel with the highest being 95oct!!!!!!!! im not sure about sydney...


98 RON is freely available in Sydney and has a legally required max sulphur content of 50ppm.


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## talk-torque

al fa cager said:


> Anyway, on a serious note; you'd be better off changing the engine oil frequently and of the best possible quality rather than using a particular fuel.
> 
> This is clearly a PCV issue -- "Positive Crancase Ventilation" for those that don't know what that means. It's where the vapours from the crankcase are routed into the engine intake to be burnt and processed by the exhaust catalyst. The vapours are a mixture of oil vapour and combustion chamber "blow-by".
> 
> I change my engine oil as soon as it starts to go dark brown; I never let it get black. This is not based on anything more scientific than gut-feel. You can buy 4l of Mobil 1 for 25 quid at Costco.


This may help a bit, but my guess is that the carbon build up from the PCV ocurrs because the lack of petrol in the intake flow upstream of the valves means that it is no longer "washed" into the combustion chamber. The high combustion chamber temperatures in a direct injection engine make this effect worse.

There is a question on direct petrol injection answered in evo this month which acknowledges the problem of carbon build up, but dismisses it as a problem that will be solved as the technology develops. And meanwhile???????


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## Senator

The part of the patent that Audi chooses to ignore:

click to enlarge


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## talk-torque

Given that there now appears to be a problem with carbon deposits, the potential for which is acknowledged in that paper, I'd say that is legal gold dust for a class action in the US. The rest of the world will roll over, as usual.


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## Senator

talk-torque said:


> Given that there now appears to be a problem with carbon deposits, the potential for which is acknowledged in that paper, I'd say that is legal gold dust for a class action in the US. The rest of the world will roll over, as usual.


Nah not at all.
Audi more than any other non US manufacturer is aware of US class actions due to its history in that legal arena in the US..
VAG these days does not do anything, anywhere without the benefit of the best market specific legal advice.


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## Hadaak

found this:


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## egi

Hadaak said:


> found this:


[smiley=thumbsup.gif]


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## mpaul0055

Hadaak said:


> found this:


Awesomes, Even i understood that


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## mikef4uk

Do you really want to wash all that crap through your engine in one go?  I think I would rather clean all the inlets then remove the breather system
(Larry---I sent you a pm)


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## schumy

unfortunately i dont live in the US where the BG cleaning service is available....


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## Alva8193

hmetwally said:


> Alva8193 said:
> 
> 
> 
> i have a vta eurojet catch tank and have meth setup on my car so im hoping this will keep the carbon build up down
> 
> 
> 
> And did that create problems with fumes etc?
> and how do you find / install this catch tank?
Click to expand...

Sorry about the late response but i get NO fumes what so ever and i drive 98% of the time with my windows down and a/c on. I found the tank because i frequent a lot of the mkv golf forums since we share such a similar motor and eurojet is a popular company amongst them. It bolted right up they also have there new design coming out which should be even better and more "conservative" looking since my catch tank is an ammo box


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## Hadaak




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## kenji

some very interesting points here and after just investing A$85 000.00 in what i thought was the epitome of german engineering i now find myself almost reaching for the panic button!!! the visuals represent, prima facie, a very serious flaw.

if this problem is anywhwere near as bad as it is being reported then it would be most advantageous to collectively construct a document to present to audi. my car, like some others, has had no engine modification and therefore it is in no way open to 'warranty' infringement. should the engine deteriorate to such an extent that a serious modification is required for rectification then this would need to covered under warranty. if it is then i see no problem in the future provided that any 'patch' adequately rectifies the problem.

a lot of people who are posting on here are far better aquainted than me on the relationship between audi and their customers as my own experience is limited to about four weeks.

i believe that somewhere amongst the posters there must be a person who is legally empowered to the extent of passing a very rudimentary comment re this issue. would it be possible to do a straw poll and see where this leads? to let this issue go without testing it would be a major abrogation of ones financial interests. things are bad enough without finishing up with a lemon.


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## Senator

kenji, as we have discussed elsewhere today this is typical of the Audi service paradigm, HOWEVER a US class action was very nearly the end of Audi/VAG worldwide. I strongly doubt that they have any wish to repeat that disaster.

This problem has been around in a limited form since the inception of FSI's.
The situation has been blown out of all proportion since going viral in the last few weeks.
The hysteria has been based on the experience of mainly one guy on Sydney's Central Coast with the problem in his FSI V8.

My TFSI is quickly approaching the same mileage. Coincidentally my TTS will be taking part in an informal "shootout" conducted by a dyno manufacturer the weekend after next and is up against 8 or 9 other S3's and TTS's in various states of tune. It will be interesting to see if any of the symptoms described here as well as by _2manytoys_ become evident


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## hanzo

please update us on the results of this test... sounds interesting


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## Senator

hanzo said:


> please update us on the results of this test... sounds interesting


The starters so far;

Purpose:

Collect lots of information on the vehicles, multiple runs, Heat Soak tests, dataplots at specific RPM, torque comparisons, EGT projection.

This is not a marketing exercise, it is for the owners benefit to understand the inner workings of the vehicles.

The people who run the cars make the dyno & software & are the best / unbiased people in the business.

Starters to date:

1: Jackal (Larry) TTS / APR / Pump / Downpipe
2: Robby Jai S3 REVO
3: Macca (Len) S3 APR / Pump
4: Timbo (Tim) S3 GIAC
5: MikenBn S3 Stage 3
6: kwayzivietnamese S3 Unitronic
7: Vagabond S3 stock control car
8: Billecartz TTS stage 1

Will be fully documented..pics and HD video


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## kenji

thanks senator for the fill-in. i will be monitoring this issue closely but at the same time i will look at formulating a letter which i will send to audi notifying them of my concerns. in the case of this becoming an issue later i will have something upon which to claim as an official notification. i believe in anticipation and not waiting until the horse had bolted. a personal trait, thats all.

looking forward to your dyno test results in the future.


----------



## Senator

kenji said:


> thanks senator for the fill-in. i will be monitoring this issue closely but at the same time i will look at formulating a letter which i will send to audi notifying them of my concerns. in the case of this becoming an issue later i will have something upon which to claim as an official notification. i believe in anticipation and not waiting until the horse had bolted. a personal trait, thats all.
> 
> looking forward to your dyno test results in the future.


Don't let me inhibit your lobbying efforts..they're to be applauded.
Good time for it as well in Oz as the office of the CEO is in changeover mode.


----------



## Hadaak

Senator, did you mount an Forge catch Oil Can? If so can you provide any info on the install. I'm looking into buying one pretty soon. Thakns.


----------



## Senator

Hadaak said:


> Senator, did you mount an Forge catch Oil Can? If so can you provide any info on the install. I'm looking into buying one pretty soon. Thakns.


No....we discovered that it would not fit emissions plumbing as required in Australia. 
Forge are currently redesigning a kit.


----------



## Hadaak

what I have found so far :

EuroJet:

http://www.eurojetracing.com/ProductDet ... e=MK5Catch = 265$










Mishomoto:

http://www.mishimoto.com/mishimoto-carb ... h-can.html = 125$










Forge:

http://www.forgemotorsport.com/content. ... t=FMMK5CTC










http://www.forgemotorsport.com/content. ... uct=FMUNCT = 99$


----------



## Hadaak

Senator said:


> Hadaak said:
> 
> 
> 
> Senator, did you mount an Forge catch Oil Can? If so can you provide any info on the install. I'm looking into buying one pretty soon. Thakns.
> 
> 
> 
> No....we discovered that it would not fit emissions plumbing as required in Australia.
> Forge are currently redesigning a kit.
Click to expand...

you mean the soot caught by the OCT is still harmfull for the environment !!!! 
This means that the future version of the Forge OCT will do some filtering, some soot killing ???


----------



## mikef4uk

For all those that doubt the car needs a catch tank just remove the engine cover, pinch the clip that holds the corrogated tube on to the inlet manifold (R side when viewed from the front) and remove it, just have a look at all the yellowy coloured shite that your pride and joy is about to injest......


----------



## Hadaak

mikef4uk , do you have an OCT? Which brand. any suggestions?


----------



## LEO-RS

For a newbie, can someone explain this problem in a couple of lines please

I understand that fuel is injected directly into the cylinders in these engines and that unburnt fuel deposits /carbon is left around the intake/exhaust valves. This may then cause running problems, loss of performance etc, so I understand the problem but not quite sure on the remedy to solve it and where the catch can comes in?

How does it stop these deposits forming on the valves. What is in place as standard?

Always good to start with basics :lol:


----------



## Hadaak

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCV_valve

The Positive Crankcase Ventilation valve, or PCV valve, is a one-way valve that assists with the continual evacuation of gases from inside a gasoline/petrol internal combustion engine's crankcase.

[edit] Explanation
As an engine operates, high-pressure gases are contained within the combustion chamber and prevented from passing into the crankcase (containing the crankshaft and other parts) between the side of the piston and the cylinder bore by piston rings which seal against the cylinder. However, some amount of gas always leaks past the piston rings into the crankcase. This amount is very small in a new or properly rebuilt engine, provided that the piston rings and cylinder walls are correctly "broken in", and increases as the engine wears. Scratches on the cylinder walls or piston rings, such as those caused by foreign objects entering the engine, can cause large amounts of leakage. This leaked gas is known as blow-by because the pressure within the cylinders blows it by the piston rings. If this blow-by gas could not escape then pressure would build up within the crankcase.

Before the invention of crankcase ventilation in 1928, the engine oil seals were designed to withstand this pressure, oil leaking to the road surface was accepted, and the dipstick was screwed in. The hydrocarbon rich gas would then diffuse through the oil in the seals into the atmosphere. Subsequently, it became an emissions requirement as well as a functional necessity that the crankcase have a ventilation system. This must maintain the crankcase at slightly less than atmospheric pressure and recycle the blow-by gas back into the engine intake. However, due to the constant circulation of the oil within the engine, along with the high speed movement of the crankshaft, an oil mist is also passed through the PCV system and into the intake. The oil is then either burnt during combustion, or settles along the intake tract, causing a gradual build-up of residue inside the inlet path. For this reason many engine tuners choose to replace the PCV system with an oil catch can and breather filter which vents the blow-by gases directly to atmosphere and retains the oil in a small tank (or returns it to the sump), although this technically fails to meet most engine emission legislation.

[edit] History
The examples and perspective in this section deal primarily with the United States and do not represent a worldwide view of the subject. Please improve this article and discuss the issue on the talk page. (December 2009)

Prior to the early 1960s, automobile petrol engines vented combustion gases directly to the atmosphere through a simple vent tube. Frequently, this consisted of a pipe (the "road draft tube") that extended out from the crankcase down to the bottom of the engine compartment. The bottom of the pipe was open to the atmosphere, and was placed such that when the car was in motion a slight vacuum would be hopefully obtained, helping to extract combustion gases as they collected in the crankcase. The oil mist would also be discharged, resulting in an oily film being deposited in the middle of each travel lane on heavily-used roads. The system was not positive though, as gases could travel both ways, or not move at all, dependent on conditions. Most modern diesel engines still use this type of system to dispose of crankcase fumes. During World War II however, a different type of crankcase ventilation had to be invented to allow tank engines to operate during deep fording operations, where the normal draft tube ventilator would have allowed water to enter the crankcase and destroy the engine. The PCV system and its control valve were invented to meet this need, but the need for it on automobiles was not recognized.

In 1952, Professor A. J. Haagen-Smit, of the California Institute of Technology at Pasadena, postulated that unburned hydrocarbons were a primary constituent of smog, and that gasoline powered automobiles were a major source of those hydrocarbons. After some investigation by the GM Research Laboratory (Dr. Lloyd L. Withrow) it was discovered in 1958 that the road draft tube was a major source, about half, of the hydrocarbons coming from the automobile. GM's Cadillac Division, which had built many tanks during WWII, recognized that the simple PCV valve could be used to become the first major reduction in automotive hydrocarbon emissions. After confirming the PCV valves' effectiveness at hydrocarbon reduction, GM offered the PCV solution to the entire U.S. automobile industry, royalty free, through its trade association, the Automobile Manufacturers Association (AMA). In the absence of any legislated requirement, the AMA members agreed to put it on all California cars voluntarily in the early 1960s, with national application following one year later.

Following its introduction into production, several years later the PCV became the subject of a Federal grand jury investigation in 1967, when it was alleged by some industry critics that the AMA was conspiring to keep several such smog reduction devices like the PCV on the shelf to delay smog control. After eighteen months of investigation by U.S. Attorney Samuel Flatow, the grand jury returned a "no-bill" decision, clearing the AMA, but resulting in a "Consent Decree" that all U.S. automobile companies agreed not to work jointly on smog control activities for a period of ten years.

[edit] PCV system
The PCV valve is only one part of the PCV system, which is essentially a variable and calibrated air leak, whereby the engine returns its crankcase combustion gases. Instead of the gases being vented to the atmosphere, gases are fed back into the intake manifold, to re-enter the combustion chamber as part of a fresh charge of air and fuel. The PCV system is not a classical "vacuum leak". All the air collected by the air cleaner (and metered by the mass air flow sensor, on a fuel injected engine) goes through the intake manifold. The PCV system just diverts a small percentage of this air via the breather to the crankcase before allowing it to be drawn back in to the intake tract again. It is an "open system" in that fresh exterior air is continuously used to flush contaminants from the crankcase and into the combustion chamber.

The system relies on the fact that, while the engine is running, the intake manifold's air pressure is always less than crankcase air pressure. The lower pressure of the intake manifold draws air towards it, pulling air from the breather through the crankcase (where it dilutes and mixes with combustion gases), through the PCV valve, and into the intake manifold.

The PCV system consists of the breather tube and the PCV valve. The breather tube connects the crankcase to a clean source of fresh air, such as the air cleaner body. Usually, clean air from the air cleaner flows in to this tube and in to the engine after passing through a screen, baffle, or other simple system to arrest a flame front, to prevent a potentially explosive atmosphere within the engine crank case from being ignited from a back-fire in to the intake manifold. The baffle, filter, or screen also traps oil mist, and keeps it inside the engine.

Once inside the engine, the air circulates around the interior of the engine, picking up and clearing away combustion byproduct gases, including a large amount of water vapor, then exits through a simple baffle, screen or mesh to trap oil droplets before being drawn out through the PCV valve, and into the intake manifold.

[edit] PCV valve

PCV valve on Ford Taunus V4 engine in a Saab 96, between left valve cover and intermediate flange on intake manifoldThe PCV valve connects the crankcase to the intake manifold from a location more-or-less opposite the breather connection. Typical locations include the opposite valve cover that the breather tube connects to on a V engine. A typical location is the valve cover(s), although some engines place the valve in locations far from the valve cover. The valve is simple, but actually performs a complicated control function. An internal restrictor (generally a cone or ball) is held in "normal" (engine off, zero vacuum) position with a light spring, exposing the full size of the PCV opening to the intake manifold. With the engine running, the tapered end of the cone is drawn towards the opening in the PCV valve, restricting the opening proportionate to the level of engine vacuum vs. spring tension. At idle, the intake manifold vacuum is near maximum. It is at this time the least amount of blow by is actually occurring, so the PCV valve provides the largest amount of (but not complete) restriction. As engine load increases, vacuum on the valve decreases proportionally and blow by increases proportionally. With a lower level of vacuum, the spring returns the cone to the "open" position to allow more air flow. At full throttle, there is nearly zero vacuum. At this point the PCV valve is nearly useless, and most combustion gases escape via the "breather tube" where they are then drawn in to the engine's intake manifold anyway.

[edit] Operation
Should the intake manifold's pressure be higher than that of the crankcase (which can happen in a turbocharged engine, or under certain conditions, such as an intake backfire), the PCV valve closes to prevent reversal of the exhausted air back into the crankcase again. Positive is not a synonym for 'one way', but for 'real', 'definite', 'incontestable' i.e. one of its other meanings. It simply means there is a constant and definite flow of air through the system, as compared to the hit-and-miss road draught system used previously, in which air may flow in either direction or not at all. In many cases PCV valves were only used for a few years, the function being taken over by a port on constant depression carburetors such as the SU. This has no moving parts or diaphragm to jam, block or rip like many PCV valves. It also doesn't have a 'one-way' function but the lack of it was never a problem in intake backfire.

It is critical that the parts of the PCV system be kept clean and open, otherwise air flow will be insufficient. A plugged or malfunctioning PCV system will eventually damage an engine. PCV problems are primarily due to neglect or poor maintenance, typically engine oil change intervals that are inadequate for the engine's driving conditions. A poorly-maintained engine's PCV system will eventually become contaminated with sludge, causing serious problems. If the engine's lubricating oil is changed with adequate frequency, the PCV system will remain clear practically for the life of the engine. However, since the valve is operating continuously as one operates the vehicle, it will fail over time. Typical maintenance schedules for gasoline engines include PCV valve replacement whenever the air filter or spark plugs are replaced. The long life of the valve despite the harsh operating environment is due to the trace amount of oil droplets suspended in the air that flows through the valve that keep it lubricated.

Not all petrol engines have PCV valves. Engines not subject to emission controls, such as certain off-road engines, retain road draft tubes. Dragsters use a scavenger system and venturi tube in the exhaust to draw out combustion gases and maintain a small amount of vacuum in the crankcase to prevent oil leaks on to the race track. Small gasoline two stroke engines use the crankcase to partially compress incoming air. All blow by in these engines is burned in the regular flow of air and fuel through the engine. Many small four-cycle engines such as lawn mower engines and small gasoline generators, simply use a draft tube connected to the intake, between the air filter and carburetor, to route all blow by back into the intake mixture. The higher operating temperature of these small engines has a side effect of preventing large amounts of water vapor and light hydrocarbons from condensing in the engine oil.


----------



## Hadaak

Catch cans start at 12 $ and highest price is around 70 $

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/OIL-CATC ... ccessories

any spécific technology or function to be careful about when buying one?


----------



## mikef4uk

Hadaak said:


> mikef4uk , do you have an OCT? Which brand. any suggestions?


I have just gone with the Forge one, probably a little expensive for what it is, but at least it's a 'kit' and not a bit from here and there, also, once I have finished with the car (and probably Audi as well at this rate of stuff creeping out of the woodwork) it's a good saleable item on fleabay


----------



## Hadaak

which one did you get? there are two models on the forge website. I guess it's the universal one. Any pics on how it is fixed to the engine? Thanks.


----------



## Hadaak

is this the one: (with the carbon filter)

http://www.forgemotorsport.co.uk/conten ... t=FMMK5CTC


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## Hadaak

now that I think of it, isn't the carbon filter a sort of carbon catch can ?










or is tha carbon filter for something else ?????


----------



## mikef4uk

Hadaak said:


> is this the one: (with the carbon filter)
> 
> http://www.forgemotorsport.co.uk/conten ... t=FMMK5CTC


No that is the one for the Golf mk5 with the windscreen washer filler in the way, the lower right tank (on this picture) is to replace the filler neck. the other kit will fit better BUT you may still need to make a mounting bracket, I went with this one:

http://www.forgemotorsport.co.uk/conten ... ct=FMMK5CT

Go to the bottom of the page, there is a link to fitting instructions that will give you some info


----------



## Hadaak

The thing is I do have teh carbon filter, so wether it is a TT or Golf MK5 this is for the FSI Carbon fibre model !!!

EuroJet asked me this question too, whether I have the carbon filter or not !!!


----------



## egi

Hadaak said:


> now that I think of it, isn't the carbon filter a sort of carbon catch can ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> or is tha carbon filter for something else ?????


this is called the charcoal canister. it is for the fuel, not really a catch can.


----------



## Hadaak

Thanks Mate


----------



## Hadaak

wondering whether the difference carbon canister or no carbon canister is only for fixing the oil catch can or for something else ???


----------



## mikef4uk

Hadaak said:


> wondering whether the difference carbon canister or no carbon canister is only for fixing the oil catch can or for something else ???


Look behind the carbon catch tank in the above picture and you will see the windscreen filler neck on the Golf mk5, the kit ''for carbon cannister'' simply replaces that long plastic neck, the TT does not have the windscreen filler there so you do not need that kit, carbon cannister is not for this oil problem, they're normally for fuel tank breathing


----------



## hmetwally

Would such mod (installing the catch tank) void the warrenty?


----------



## mikef4uk

hmetwally said:


> Would such mod (installing the catch tank) void the warrenty?


It's a ten minute job to fit or remove, I would just remove it before the service I think, although Audi do know of this problem and your only trying to help.


----------



## Senator

Finally sorted out the plumbing complications (for Australian cars) and installed the Forge can today. Where I've mounted it the charcoal filter makes no difference.
Pics tomorrow.


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## mikef4uk

Senator said:


> Finally sorted out the plumbing complications (for Australian cars) and installed the Forge can today. Where I've mounted it the charcoal filter makes no difference.
> Pics tomorrow.


Thanks, I'll wait patiently! I was toying of fitting it between the lH headlamp and air filter box


----------



## Senator

Forge catch fitted to the TTS
Notice new Forge take-off location for DV. This location is correct as opposed the take-off point as per the old Forge instruction sheet for the DV, which wasn't too optimal for the TTS's emissions system.

click to enlarge


----------



## conneem

Looks good Larry but is it not hidden by your OSIR carbon jacket there?


----------



## Arne

I asked a very good friend of mine about this, who works as a service manager at a rather large VW dealer/workshop. He said that this was nothing that he had heard of or experienced, and they do service and repairs of lots of different VW FSI engines every day. Some of these engines have done more than 200- 300.000 km, and problems with carbon built up is nothing that effects these engines more than others.

He also said that when these kind of problems do occurs (which is seldom), it is almost always just a symphtom of other engine or fuels problems.

As he also said - if this was a known problem, would I not think that VAG would have included any form of actions (like performing a standard "clean up" prosedure by the use of some clean up products as a part of the regular services) to prevent this from becoming a serious long term problem?

He also said that this might be something they have seen before - which is some product manufacturers set out some roumors like this just to get their products sold....

I do think he has a point there..... :wink:


----------



## montyawn7

Can someone please confirm that that the 3.2V6 is safe from this?

Damn. This is the first I have ever heard about this problem on any car and I spend a lot of time on the interweb reading about cars and subscribe to 4 car magazine. You learn something new every day.


----------



## sico

Yes V6 is fine as its not tfsi. V6 is a long termer, I beleive it started life off in the original VW scirocco. Therefore its tried and tested.


----------



## Hadaak

Arne said:


> I asked a very good friend of mine about this, who works as a service manager at a rather large VW dealer/workshop. He said that this was nothing that he had heard of or experienced, and they do service and repairs of lots of different VW FSI engines every day. Some of these engines have done more than 200- 300.000 km, and problems with carbon built up is nothing that effects these engines more than others.
> 
> He also said that when these kind of problems do occurs (which is seldom), it is almost always just a symphtom of other engine or fuels problems.
> 
> As he also said - if this was a known problem, would I not think that VAG would have included any form of actions (like performing a standard "clean up" prosedure by the use of some clean up products as a part of the regular services) to prevent this from becoming a serious long term problem?
> 
> He also said that this might be something they have seen before - which is some product manufacturers set out some roumors like this just to get their products sold....
> 
> I do think he has a point there..... :wink:


your friend should do some reading  No offense  and this can doesn't harm the engine. Plus you never know what's going on under the hood so that's one problem less !!! cause by the time you know there is something wrong with your car you have 2 problems: the real problem and the carbon buildup side effect and the carbon buildup by itself would cost la peau des fesses as we say over here :lol:


----------



## Hadaak

montyawn7 said:


> Can someone please confirm that that the 3.2V6 is safe from this?
> 
> Damn. This is the first I have ever heard about this problem on any car and I spend a lot of time on the interweb reading about cars and subscribe to 4 car magazine. You learn something new every day.


I don't know much about V6 but if it's direct injection it's subject to carbon buildup.


----------



## Hadaak

Senator said:


> Forge catch fitted to the TTS
> Notice new Forge take-off location for DV. This location is correct as opposed the take-off point as per the old Forge instruction sheet for the DV, which wasn't too optimal for the TTS's emissions system.
> 
> click to enlarge


WOuld have been helpful to have picture of your engine before installing the CAN.

I have FWD and I took a look at the engin today and the hose going from PCV to Intake is not the same !!!


----------



## Hadaak

Senator said:


> Forge catch fitted to the TTS
> Notice new Forge take-off location for DV. This location is correct as opposed the take-off point as per the old Forge instruction sheet for the DV, which wasn't too optimal for the TTS's emissions system.


Senator, do you have the old instructions or any info on the that, please?

I'm starting a new thread about making a home made catch can 

I understand from the pictures that you deleted something, some device with a valve !!!!


----------



## Toshiba

My former TTS engine - cover removed.


----------



## mikef4uk

Arne said:


> I asked a very good friend of mine about this, who works as a service manager at a rather large VW dealer/workshop. He said that this was nothing that he had heard of or experienced, and they do service and repairs of lots of different VW FSI engines every day. Some of these engines have done more than 200- 300.000 km, and problems with carbon built up is nothing that effects these engines more than others.
> 
> He also said that when these kind of problems do occurs (which is seldom), it is almost always just a symphtom of other engine or fuels problems.
> 
> As he also said - if this was a known problem, would I not think that VAG would have included any form of actions (like performing a standard "clean up" prosedure by the use of some clean up products as a part of the regular services) to prevent this from becoming a serious long term problem?
> 
> He also said that this might be something they have seen before - which is some product manufacturers set out some roumors like this just to get their products sold....
> 
> I do think he has a point there..... :wink:


I don't believe you believe that  

Just Google Audi or VW 2.0T inlet valves or read the Patent Larry posted, VAG even admit to it, Try Audizine. VWVortex,in fact any VAG forum.

Tell you what, see the picture posted by tosh, see where the little pipe goes onto the inlet manifold? just unclip it and have a look at all the crap your engine is ingesting


----------



## Hadaak

Toshiba said:


> My former TTS engine - cover removed.


Thanks Tosh,

I'm trying to understand the forge system here. From the pics the catch changes :

before:









and After:









anybody to explain the changes 

I'm making a 10 € catch can :lol:


----------



## Hadaak

research is going fine ! Google is your friend


----------



## Hadaak

And lo and behold:










http://www.mann-hummel.com/company/index.html?iKeys=3.1.180.0.0&cScr=35&rec_no=192

read the description please !

_ProVent® 200 - lowers vehicle emissions

The ProVent® 200 crankcase ventilation system with integrated oil separation from MANN+HUMMEL reduces emissions containing oil from vehicles, prevents the build-up of deposits in the intake system and lowers the oil consumption of diesel engines.

Ludwigsburg, 29th March, 2004 - MANN+HUMMEL, development partner and series supplier to the international automotive and general engineering industries, will present its new ProVent® 200 system at the BAUMA 2004 fair. The ProVent® 200 is a crankcase ventilation system with integrated oil separation. ProVent® 200 reduces vehicle emissions. The system is designed for the latest generation of turbo-charged engines and is already in operation in a number of engines.

ProVent® 200 filters blow-by gases with a coalescence separator and reduces the residual oil content to a minimal level. A high performance oil separator and pressure regulation unit are integrated in the system. The compact unit is light yet has a very robust design. The ProVent® 200 protects the turbocharger and components fitted downstream from deposits containing oil. This efficient solution is designed for use in industry with flow rates of approx. 100 l/min to 200 l/min blow-by gas. This corresponds to an engine performance of up to approx. 350 kW. In addition, ProVent® 200 offers high flexibility regarding the choice of the installation location on the engine or in the engine compartment. An integrated safety valve prevents excessively high crankcase pressure._Background information

Crankcase ventilation is necessary because with every stroke of the engine combustion gases find their way between the piston rings and bushings into the crankcase. When the engine is supercharged air can also reach the crankcase via the oil return pipe of the turbocharger. If there is no ventilation to remove these so-called blow-by gases, the pressure in the crankcase increases. For environmental reasons the regulations for car engines in the majority of countries stipulate that the crankcase ventilation must not enter the atmosphere. Therefore in car engines the blow-by gas is returned via the so-called closed crankcase ventilation back into the intake system of the engine and combusted. The international laws governing diesel engines in commercial vehicles and industrial applications have not yet been standardised, but due to environmental reasons the trend is ever more towards closed crankcase ventilation systems.

A closed crankcase ventilation system means that the blow-by Gas is not directed into the atmosphere, but is instead directed back to the intake air of the engine. However, the blow-by gas must be cleaned before it returns to the intake system in order to protect sensitive engine parts such as the turbocharger from contamination. The closed crankcase ventilation system lowers the total level of emissions of the engine. A positive side-effect is the lower oil consumption.


----------



## Hadaak

Looks like Forge have a serious competitor here.

And this looks a good solution. Still need the PVC fix plate :


----------



## Senator

Toshiba said:


> My former TTS engine - cover removed.


Tosh's plumbing is exactly the same as mine OEM.


----------



## Senator

Hadaak said:


> Senator said:
> 
> 
> 
> Forge catch fitted to the TTS
> Notice new Forge take-off location for DV. This location is correct as opposed the take-off point as per the old Forge instruction sheet for the DV, which wasn't too optimal for the TTS's emissions system.
> 
> 
> 
> Senator, do you have the old instructions or any info on the that, please?
> 
> I'm starting a new thread about making a home made catch can
> 
> I understand from the pictures that you deleted something, some device with a valve !!!!
Click to expand...

click to enlarge









Hadaak, this picture shows the FORGE recommended take-off point for the DV circled in red.
Audi techs have speculated that this point being used could cause given the right set of variables for the car to go into limp mode. With the instructions for the catch can Forge are now advising that the take-off be from the green circle.


----------



## Senator

Arne said:


> I asked a very good friend of mine about this, who works as a service manager at a rather large VW dealer/workshop. He said that this was nothing that he had heard of or experienced, and they do service and repairs of lots of different VW FSI engines every day. Some of these engines have done more than 200- 300.000 km, and problems with carbon built up is nothing that effects these engines more than others.
> 
> He also said that when these kind of problems do occurs (which is seldom), it is almost always just a symphtom of other engine or fuels problems.
> 
> As he also said - if this was a known problem, would I not think that VAG would have included any form of actions (like performing a standard "clean up" prosedure by the use of some clean up products as a part of the regular services) to prevent this from becoming a serious long term problem?
> 
> He also said that this might be something they have seen before - which is some product manufacturers set out some roumors like this just to get their products sold....
> 
> I do think he has a point there..... :wink:


Arne this whole thing went viral when a RS4 from Sydney started have serious performance problems.It is drawing a very long string to your bow to suggest that Forge or any other manufacturers have planted this to promote sales.


----------



## Senator

mikef4uk said:


> Tell you what, see the picture posted by tosh, see where the little pipe goes onto the inlet manifold? just unclip it and have a look at all the crap your engine is ingesting


Better still take the hose plate (the one that now says "Forge") off and watch the oil liberally flow out!!!


----------



## Senator

Hadaak said:


> Looks like Forge have a serious competitor here.
> 
> And this looks a good solution. Still need the PVC fix plate :


When you look at the fabrication and engineering of the Forge kit you can see what you are paying for.....something engineered for that very engine and fabricated to a very high standard.
As well Forge tend to take their customers' satisfaction extremely seriously as is evidenced in my thread of a little while ago.
http://www.********.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=155966


----------



## Hadaak

I did remove the engine cover today but didn't pay much attention to this piece as I thought that the can was to be mounted after the saucer looking diagnostic port piece. Is it really necessary or we just connect two tubes to the OEM piece?


----------



## Hadaak

some more info on the subject. Credits go to a guy named Phil at BSH::

posting.php?mode=reply&f=19&t=161130

_Hello everybody. I have seen the term "Rear PCV" come up quite a few times with regards to the PCV system on the 2.0T engine. There is no such thing as a rear pcv.

The PCV system on the 2.0T is a complex one but nothing that's to difficult to figure out once you cut it apart on the bandsaw

The first thing to do is identify what all of these ports are doing.










PCV Gasses enter the valve cover through the port labeled Crank Inlet .

Once inside the valve cover there are a series of chambers, baffles, and drains. As gasses move through these ports they will eventually come to the Vacuum Control Diaphragm and Diagnostic Port.

The vacuum control diaphragm is used while the car is in vacuum. When vacuum is applied to the diaphragm it is sucked down to limit the amount of draw applied to everything behind it. In factory orientation if this diaphragm were to become ripped it would allow so much vacuum to be applied to the pcv system that oil would literally be sucked out of the head and into the motor.

Heading towards the intake manifold there is a Check Valve This is the valve that is known for failing on these cars. When working properly this valve opens under vacuum and closes under boost.

When in vacuum pcv gasses are pulled through the diagnostic port and into the intake manifold. When in boost the pcv gasses go out the other side of the diagnostic port and into a passage molded into the valve cover then out the Rear Outlet

You can follow along with the flow of gasses through this image.










So what this all boils down to is that there is no "Front" or "Rear" PCV. Its all one system. What people refer to as a rear pcv is just a passage built into the valve cover. A few of the different revisions had different check valve orientation but the function and layout is the same across all the cars.

I hope that taught you something about your toy!

-Phill _[/i]


----------



## Hadaak

and now good night


----------



## Senator

Hadaak said:


> I did remove the engine cover today but didn't pay much attention to this piece as I thought that the can was to be mounted after the saucer looking diagnostic port piece. Is it really necessary or we just connect two tubes to the OEM piece?


This is the OEM plate. It's a one piece PVC extrusion with the vacuum diaphragm thermo-fused to it.

click to enlarge


----------



## mikef4uk

Senator said:


> mikef4uk said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tell you what, see the picture posted by tosh, see where the little pipe goes onto the inlet manifold? just unclip it and have a look at all the crap your engine is ingesting
> 
> 
> 
> Better still take the hose plate (the one that now says "Forge") off and watch the oil liberally flow out!!!
Click to expand...

Yes I did take that off as well whilst I was working out where all the pasageways went to, I wanted to work out where the system breathes too when on boost or with the forge kit (one and the same place-the turbo inlet, I may mod mine to breath to atmosphere, i'm going to monitor the catch tank outlet ad see what is getting through it) the whole plate was full of yelllow oily crap, I do like that seperator that Hadaak has found


----------



## Hadaak

Senator said:


> Hadaak said:
> 
> 
> 
> I did remove the engine cover today but didn't pay much attention to this piece as I thought that the can was to be mounted after the saucer looking diagnostic port piece. Is it really necessary or we just connect two tubes to the OEM piece?
Click to expand...

This is the OEM plate. It's a one piece PVC extrusion with the vacuum diaphragm thermo-fused to it.

click to enlarge









thanks for the pics Senator. 
Question : where is the diaphragm (the saucer looking thing) on the Forge pltate? is it completely deleted?


----------



## Senator

Completely eliminated.


----------



## Senator

mikef4uk said:


> I may mod mine to breath to atmosphere


To what advantage?


----------



## mikef4uk

Senator said:


> mikef4uk said:
> 
> 
> 
> I may mod mine to breath to atmosphere
> 
> 
> 
> To what advantage?
Click to expand...

No advantage unless..........

I would only do this if the forge catch tank doesn't catch all the oily stuff ( I will monitor the return pipe, I will also clean my inlet valves once the weather warms up a bit!), but you replied it does catch it all, so if that is the case I will leave it alone once fitted


----------



## mikef4uk

Hadaak said:


> Senator said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hadaak said:
> 
> 
> 
> I did remove the engine cover today but didn't pay much attention to this piece as I thought that the can was to be mounted after the saucer looking diagnostic port piece. Is it really necessary or we just connect two tubes to the OEM piece?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This is the OEM plate. It's a one piece PVC extrusion with the vacuum diaphragm thermo-fused to it.
> 
> click to enlarge
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thanks for the pics Senator.
> Question : where is the diaphragm (the saucer looking thing) on the Forge pltate? is it completely deleted?
Click to expand...

Yes, deleted totally, the diaphragm is used to close the inlet manifold off once the engine come under boost pressure, once the kit is fitted the engine only breathes the same way as it would if under boost


----------



## Hadaak

OK. Any alternative tot he forge plate? can it be home made?


----------



## Hadaak

Senator, Hopw much did you pay your Can, please?


----------



## Senator

Hadaak said:


> can it be home made?


Tall order , but if anyone can....... You da man Hadaak.


----------



## mikef4uk

Hadaak said:


> OK. Any alternative tot he forge plate? can it be home made?


I sent you a pM, heres the link

http://store.42draftdesigns.com/Oil-Cat ... _c_71.html


----------



## Senator

Hadaak said:


> Senator, Hopw much did you pay your Can, please?


The price on their site (can't remember Hadaak...it was months ago) less 10% discount available to members of this forum.


----------



## Hadaak

mikef4uk said:


> Hadaak said:
> 
> 
> 
> OK. Any alternative tot he forge plate? can it be home made?
> 
> 
> 
> I sent you a pM, heres the link
> 
> http://store.42draftdesigns.com/Oil-Cat ... _c_71.html
Click to expand...

Yes; But that's still 75$  add that to the MANN Filter at 145.95 $ and you are not far from the Forge Can !!


----------



## mikef4uk

Hadaak said:


> mikef4uk said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hadaak said:
> 
> 
> 
> OK. Any alternative tot he forge plate? can it be home made?
> 
> 
> 
> I sent you a pM, heres the link
> 
> http://store.42draftdesigns.com/Oil-Cat ... _c_71.html
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes; But that's still 75$  add that to the MANN Filter at 145.95 $ and you are not far from the Forge Can !!
Click to expand...

Yes, but $75 is only about £45, it aint going to come much cheaper!! I looked around then just gave in and bought the Forge one, one reason was when I am finished with the car I can ebay the Forge system and i'm guessing it will sell (there's a lot of VAG market out there, forge is a well known make) how well do you think a 'mikef4' or 'Hadaak' designed catch tank system would sell :lol: :lol:


----------



## Hadaak

i'm definitely home-making one


----------



## Hadaak

as for the catch can it's gonna a lot cheaper. I already have a compressed air filter :

http://ocnav.com/cars/oil_separator.html

like this one but in metal so better:


----------



## Hadaak

Senator, did you keep the OEM seals (plastic joints between the plate and the engin if i'm not clear enough  ) for the PCV block off plate of are Forge supplying their own? 
thanks.


----------



## Arne

mikef4uk said:


> Arne said:
> 
> 
> 
> I asked a very good friend of mine about this, who works as a service manager at a rather large VW dealer/workshop. He said that this was nothing that he had heard of or experienced, and they do service and repairs of lots of different VW FSI engines every day. Some of these engines have done more than 200- 300.000 km, and problems with carbon built up is nothing that effects these engines more than others.
> 
> He also said that when these kind of problems do occurs (which is seldom), it is almost always just a symphtom of other engine or fuels problems.
> 
> As he also said - if this was a known problem, would I not think that VAG would have included any form of actions (like performing a standard "clean up" prosedure by the use of some clean up products as a part of the regular services) to prevent this from becoming a serious long term problem?
> 
> He also said that this might be something they have seen before - which is some product manufacturers set out some roumors like this just to get their products sold....
> 
> I do think he has a point there..... :wink:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't believe you believe that
> 
> Just Google Audi or VW 2.0T inlet valves or read the Patent Larry posted, VAG even admit to it, Try Audizine. VWVortex,in fact any VAG forum.
> 
> Tell you what, see the picture posted by tosh, see where the little pipe goes onto the inlet manifold? just unclip it and have a look at all the crap your engine is ingesting
Click to expand...

I have done some searches and frankly I have not seen any documentation that this is any major design fault. I do agree that there are many improvements that can be made to most engines - specially if you want to have improved performance.

But reading this thread I got the impression that this was a "serious worry" for any unmodified TFSI engines, and I still can't see this documented.

And the fix seems very easy and "cheap" to do - specially if this had been done from factory. My thinking then is - if this is a serious worry also admitted by VAG, why have they not done some modifications to rectify it in production?

So I am still not convinced that this is any serious worry, even though - as I said - there are many improvements that can be made on eny engines, and this might be one of them, specially in combination with other engine performance modifications.

But as a "serious worry" for everyone with an unmodified VAG TFSI engine.....nope - I am not at all convinced - or worried :wink:


----------



## Hadaak

what kind of material do you guys suggest for a pcv block-plate? would stainless steel do the job. 
i've read somewhere Forge one is anodized. or would plain painted steel do the job as well?


----------



## mikef4uk

Hadaak said:


> what kind of material do you guys suggest for a pcv block-plate? would stainless steel do the job.
> i've read somewhere Forge one is anodized. or would plain painted steel do the job as well?


Std one is plastic. I guess anyting you can turn your hand to metal wise would suffice


----------



## conneem

Yeah, EuroJet use aluminium


----------



## Senator

Hadaak said:


> Senator, did you keep the OEM seals (plastic joints between the plate and the engin if i'm not clear enough  ) for the PCV block off plate of are Forge supplying their own?
> thanks.


Yes....very necessary.


----------



## Hadaak

Senator said:


> Hadaak said:
> 
> 
> 
> can it be home made?
> 
> 
> 
> Tall order , but if anyone can....... You da man Hadaak.
Click to expand...

Missed this one :lol: Thanks Senator


----------



## Hadaak

Senator said:


> Hadaak said:
> 
> 
> 
> Senator, did you keep the OEM seals (plastic joints between the plate and the engin if i'm not clear enough  ) for the PCV block off plate of are Forge supplying their own?
> thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes....very necessary.
Click to expand...

don't get you here, Senator: Yes for OEM or for Forge?
Can I use the OEM seals?


----------



## Hadaak

conneem said:


> Yeah, EuroJet use aluminium


this plate looks hollow on the inside. looks like I have sme serious work here. I'll test with a flat (on the inside) plate. I think as long as the plate is sealed corrcectly there should nbe no issues.

I think EuroJet and Forge have some serious copetition here ! Who wants a PCV blockoff plate ?  I'll open a group by for all forum members 80 % off :lol:


----------



## Senator

Hadaak said:


> Senator said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hadaak said:
> 
> 
> 
> Senator, did you keep the OEM seals (plastic joints between the plate and the engin if i'm not clear enough  ) for the PCV block off plate of are Forge supplying their own?
> thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes....very necessary.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> don't get you here, Senator: Yes for OEM or for Forge?
> Can I use the OEM seals?
Click to expand...

Yes OEM...it's not an ordinary gasket.


----------



## Hadaak

do you think I can cut a flat piece of aluminum and fix it ?


----------



## Hadaak

mmmm. gasket looks like this i suppose:


----------



## Toshiba

looks and sounds like a mega design fault to me.


----------



## Senator

Aluminium would be the material of choice and yes that is the gasket.


----------



## mikef4uk

The adaptor in the pic from eurojet does not have any take off holes in it, using that one will probably cause the engine to blow a seal 

My Forge tank has now been on a few days, I'll monitor the build up of 'shite' in it and report back


----------



## conneem

Toshiba said:


> looks and sounds like a mega design fault to me.


It seems to be the same on any of the new direct injection engines from BMW, Porche ect..

Just another thing I noticed last week while topping up my oil, included in the list on the side of the bottle of the things the oil was supposedly formulated for is,

"to fight valve deposits with unique FSI valve protection"

so it is a known maintenance issue


----------



## mikef4uk

conneem said:


> Toshiba said:
> 
> 
> 
> looks and sounds like a mega design fault to me.
> 
> 
> 
> It seems to be the same on any of the new direct injection engines from BMW, Porche ect..
> 
> Just another thing I noticed last week while topping up my oil, included in the list on the side of the bottle of the things the oil was supposedly formulated for is,
> 
> "to fight valve deposits with unique FSI valve protection"
> 
> so it is a known maintenance issue
Click to expand...

What make oil was that?


----------



## conneem

mikef4uk said:


> What make oil was that?


It was Castrol Edge


----------



## chrisdhall

Castrol Edge appears to be approved by VAG - So is the oil they use at the dealers the same oil, just branded Audi??


----------



## mikef4uk

chrisdhall said:


> Castrol Edge appears to be approved by VAG - So is the oil they use at the dealers the same oil, just branded Audi??


My dealer uses Shell Helix


----------



## egi

mikef4uk said:


> My dealer uses Shell Helix


same here.. i'd prefer edge though..


----------



## Poverty

Your dealers should be using the quantum oil, which is made for them by castrol, which for the 2.0TFSI's is just rebranded castrol edge


----------



## Senator

Would have thought that this issue really sealed the case for the full synthetics.


----------



## Hadaak

guys with catch cans, any update on this? is anything showing in the can


----------



## mikef4uk

No not yet, the car has only had a couple of outings, one thing I have noticed though is when the car is stationary it revs better, before it would never rev cleanly there was always a small hesitation, I guess that may have been the pressure difference in the inlet manifold equalisiing with the engine breathing system.
I also think it is a little more responsive before the turbo kicks in,


----------



## Hadaak

good news then  Cheers !


----------



## Senator

Checked on the weekend ...nothing visible in the site tube as yet.
Can't comment on engine behaviour as am having problems with it running rich and losing 10Kw +.
Going to the Doctor's tomorrow.


----------



## mikef4uk

Senator said:


> Checked on the weekend ...nothing visible in the site tube as yet.
> Can't comment on engine behaviour as am having problems with it running rich and losing 10Kw +.
> Going to the Doctor's tomorrow.


I don't think the behaviour is a massive difference, I used to think that lightly (3-4000rpm) reving the car whilst stationary was an odd affair as if the rpm rise was not directly connected to the accelerator pedal, my lads 1.8T with 'race' engine management (no air flow sensor) revs odd as well


----------



## Senator

I should add Hadaak that the Forge can appears to contain 275 ml before any oil is visible in the sight tube. Bear in mind that this is in excess of a quarter of a litre so may take some time.


----------



## mikef4uk

Just an update on my catch tank, liquid was just visible in the level tube, took the tank off and drained it, I guess I have used two tanks of fuel since I fitted it (been using my second car, getting fed up meeting gritting wagons chucking shite at me) anyway, I drained about 200cc into a clear jar, horrible yellowy watery emulsified stuff....yak!!,


----------



## JimInSF

Are there particular synthetic oils that are optimized for direct injection and made to burn cleanly without leaving deposits if you want to avoid using a catch can?


----------



## chrisdhall

chrisdhall said:


> Castrol Edge marketing blub, says it "FIGHTS VALVE DEPOSITS WITH UNIQUE FSI VALVE PROTECTION". Not seen that claimed on other oils. Of course it could just be b*ll*cks! Still if does prevent this then maybe its worth the extra money


----------



## Senator

My forge catch can has collected 8.5fl ozs in the first 1500 miles since installation.
Highly recommended.


----------



## JimInSF

Question to the more knowledgeable gearheads out there - would Audi have any claim that this recirculated oil and fuel serve a lubrication or other intended function in the engine, and that siphoning it off like this instead thereby compromises that function and voids the warranty?

If this is going to keep your intake system cleaner and increase fuel purity, this mod seems like a no brainer to me, but wondering if there's a catch.


----------



## Poverty

JimInSF said:


> Question to the more knowledgeable gearheads out there - would Audi have any claim that this recirculated oil and fuel serve a lubrication or other intended function in the engine, and that siphoning it off like this instead thereby compromises that function and voids the warranty?
> 
> If this is going to keep your intake system cleaner and increase fuel purity, this mod seems like a no brainer to me, but wondering if there's a catch.


If you get problems just refit the PCV


----------



## Senator

JimInSF said:


> Question to the more knowledgeable gearheads out there - would Audi have any claim that this recirculated oil and fuel serve a lubrication or other intended function in the engine, and that siphoning it off like this instead thereby compromises that function and voids the warranty?
> 
> If this is going to keep your intake system cleaner and increase fuel purity, this mod seems like a no brainer to me, but wondering if there's a catch.


One of the basic tenets of contract law in the english speaking world is that it is your obligation in a contract such as is a warranty to mitigate the the other sides costs when damage is occurring. Audi of course would deny that the catch can did this.
Expert witnesses might beg to differ.


----------



## Senator

PS Latest update on the original thread that started all this.

This pic shows the coking reoccurring on the RS4 1300 miles after it was cleaned.
Disturbing to say the least and perhaps being caused by other factors, although nothing else is evident.


----------



## Senator

Not my can...fair chance it may be Jason's (IModTTS) after six months.


----------



## Hadaak

back on track  this pcv conversion plate is a bit difficult to make.
I'm thinking of buying an OEM one (Audi plastic one = 40€) and modding it to look like the Forge or the 42draftdesigns one.

http://store.42draftdesigns.com/Mk5-20T ... p_296.html

anyone know where I can get one. the website only ships tot he States.


----------



## brittan

Could you get someone in the States to buy it for you and then send it on to you?

The price looks quite reasonable.


----------



## Hadaak

Thanks for the sugestion. I thought about that. I have friends in the US and I even have some carpc parts I ordered waiting for a friend to bring them over to me. But he doesn't know when he's is doing the trip  I'm just getting king of worried about all this mess and want to get over with it soon. 
and it is true that this piece looks professional and solid. I might follow your suggestion and wait a bit


----------



## Senator

Get a freight-forwarder..the States is full of them.


----------



## Hadaak

dont' know what freight-forwarder is  
will google it up later.


----------



## Hadaak

i'm buying the conversion plate from the US 75$.

http://store.42draftdesigns.com/Mk5-20T-FSI-Catch-Can-Conversion-Plate_p_296.html


----------



## igotone

Have you tried a system restore - roll back to before the problem started?

That's worked for me when all else has failed.


----------



## Hadaak

what are you talking about mate?


----------



## igotone

Hadaak said:


> what are you talking about mate?


LOL. I seem to remember posting that response to someone who had spyware on his PC he couldn't get rid of. Wrong thread obviously!


----------



## Senator

Hadaak said:


> what are you talking about mate?


igotone was replying to spam.
The Mods deleted it.


----------



## suffeks

anyone wanna take apart an aged tt-rs and post any carbon buildup pics?


----------



## Hadaak

Back on track, guys  
I got my conversion plate (previous post) and i'm ordering the Provent MANN Filter:
http://www.efiexpress.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=52










Will be mounting it as soon as I get it. My TT has 30.000 km now. Anyone know how to clean the intake manifold without taking the TT apart


----------



## jbell

schumy said:


> The photos linked are from 2 different RS4s. They are in the US and Sydney, and I assume they have good quality gasoline there.


No they don't, the US standard unleaded is 91 IIRC


----------



## Hadaak

found this:


----------



## steeve

I read this interesting thread from cover to cover.
As the thread started some time ago, has any one had any response from VAG? I'd be interested to know if they have published any statement.

STEVE.............


----------



## Hadaak

Senator said:


> Forge catch fitted to the TTS
> Notice new Forge take-off location for DV. This location is correct as opposed the take-off point as per the old Forge instruction sheet for the DV, which wasn't too optimal for the TTS's emissions system.
> 
> click to enlarge


Hi Senator,

Any updates on the efficiency of the can ? Any blow-by caught ? how much? 
Thanks.


----------



## steeve

Sadly I dont think Senator will be responding.

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=185609


----------



## Hadaak

So saaaad ! I didn't know. It's been a while I haven't poosted anything here. so sad so sad !


----------



## J. Dub

Interesting read. I'm worried now w/ my 2009


----------



## Spooks

I have read through this thread with interest and perhaps a little worry, however I am sorry I have to ask this question and bring it back to the top. Could this really be a serious problem and do I have to spend £331.29 on an oil catcher to stop this happening? Can I put a T peace in the crankcase breather pipe and sling a pipe under the car as in the old days? I don't think a bit of hot air and engine snot will spoil the world.
Yes I know it has been covered thoroughly already but things can change. What do you think!


----------



## MaXius

I did see a post from Senator where he mentioned the catch can had made stuff all difference on the TTS, so I dunno.


----------



## Spooks

MaXius said:


> I did see a post from Senator where he mentioned the catch can had made stuff all difference on the TTS, so I dunno.


Clearly no longer an issue or this thread would be more active.


----------



## steeve

Spooks said:


> MaXius said:
> 
> 
> 
> I did see a post from Senator where he mentioned the catch can had made stuff all difference on the TTS, so I dunno.
> 
> 
> 
> Clearly no longer an issue or this thread would be more active.
Click to expand...

Perhaps, like me, most owners dont know whats happeng in their inlet tract?
But the issue seems very definite. I did write to Audi UK but no answer. I didnt really expect one though. The catch tank seems like it would work however.


----------



## Hadaak

I received my MANN filter and would be installing it soon. My TT has 30.000 km so it may be already too late :lol:


----------



## Spooks

Hadaak said:


> I received my MANN filter and would be installing it soon. My TT has 30.000 km so it may be already too late :lol:


I think my wifes fitted with a MANN filter [smiley=bigcry.gif] any details or should I Google it?


----------



## mikef4uk

Spooks said:


> MaXius said:
> 
> 
> 
> I did see a post from Senator where he mentioned the catch can had made stuff all difference on the TTS, so I dunno.
> 
> 
> 
> Clearly no longer an issue or this thread would be more active.
Click to expand...

Of course it's still an issue with the TFSI engine, just google it and see some of the pictures and write up's, its not just Audi, Porsche also suffer, however, Lexus have done something about it, they have an 'extra' 'normal' injector that is programmed to squirt fuel at and therefore clean the inlet valves occasionally.

My catch tank (when I had the 2.0 TFSI) needed emtying about every 4 weeks, mostly water came out, but also a fair amount of brownish stuff as well


----------



## Hadaak

Spooks said:


> Hadaak said:
> 
> 
> 
> I received my MANN filter and would be installing it soon. My TT has 30.000 km so it may be already too late :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> I think my wifes fitted with a MANN filter [smiley=bigcry.gif] any details or should I Google it?
Click to expand...

I Don't get your question? are you asking for mann filter info?
If so it's called MANN PROVENT 200? designed for Diesel engines but I don't see why it wouldn't work for Petrol engines !!!

Check this thread : http://www.emotors.ca/Articles/128.aspx


----------



## Spooks

Hadaak said:


> Spooks said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hadaak said:
> 
> 
> 
> I received my MANN filter and would be installing it soon. My TT has 30.000 km so it may be already too late :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> I think my wifes fitted with a MANN filter [smiley=bigcry.gif] any details or should I Google it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I Don't get your question? are you asking for mann filter info?
> If so it's called MANN PROVENT 200? designed for Diesel engines but I don't see why it wouldn't work for Petrol engines !!!
> 
> Check this thread : http://www.emotors.ca/Articles/128.aspx
Click to expand...

Thanks that is exactly what I was asking, very detailed and well presented. Thanks again very useful.


----------



## Hadaak

this kind of setup can be problematc in cold area. the blowby collected in the filter or the can can get frozen and clog the filter. I live in France so temps are not that low. i will update this thread when I install the MANN Filter.


----------



## Jeffe

Forge OCT - No carbon buildup problems.


----------



## Spooks

Jeffe said:


> Forge OCT - No carbon buildup problems.


Nicely fitted Jeffe, suppose it must be worth £330 ish if it's going to do the trick. Any problems with the engine management light? How often do you have to drain it?
Was it Forge that suggested putting it on the N/S, other pictures on there site show it on the O/S? looks better on the N/S and the carbon can is less of an issue.

Do you have a part number as the Forge web page is a bit vague as to the correct kit. It has no mention of the Audi TT at all. I don't want to order the wrong kit. Sorry about all the questions. I am desperate to stop the black death getting into my engine.


----------



## Jeffe

Hi Spooks.

Answers to your questions, but please note that I am only refering to my car, a TT 2,0 T FSI FWD 2008 (i.e. not a TTS):
1) Not a single problem with the engine management light.
2) How often do you have to drain the Forge OCT: The kit was installed late during the summer (2010) and I never use the TT during the autumn or the winter; only during the summer. The car did (appr.) 3000 Km since the installation of the Forge OCT and not once I had to drain it (as the amount of fluid collected was minimal). The level of fluid collected is easy to check as the Forge catch tank is supplied with a sight glass on the side. Drain intervals will vary heavily on the amount of blow-by gasses of the vehicle in question, how much the vehicle is driven, and ambient environmental conditions. More fluid will be collected in the tank in cooler temperatures compared to warmer weather.
3) Part number: On my car the correct Oil Catch Tank Kit is the "FMMK5CTC", that is the Forge Oil catch tank system for 2.0 litre FSi vehicles WITH a carbon filter installed. But, You will have to check if this is correct for your car? There is another option called the "FMMK5CT", wich is the Forge Oil catch tank system for 2.0 litre FSi vehicles WITHOUT carbon filter.
4) Price and cost: Do not bother about the cost. This is well invested money, no doubt about it! Further, if You download Forges installation's instructions (PDF-file) and read the paper carefully, You will spare some cash by installing the kit yourself, which is pretty easy. Only thing You might need help with (?) is to build a proper bracket.
5) I had some questions during the installation process and the guys at Forge were really helpful.
6) PS: I run on 98 or 99 oktan. Engine motor oil is Motul 300V Power 5w-40 and the Vacuum valve is uppgraded with the Audi Part Nr 06H 145 710 D.
Good luck.
Jeffe


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## Spooks

Jeffe said:


> Hi Spooks.
> 
> Answers to your questions, but please note that I am only refering to my car, a TT 2,0 T FSI FWD 2008 (i.e. not a TTS):
> 1) Not a single problem with the engine management light.
> 2) How often do you have to drain the Forge OCT: The kit was installed late during the summer (2010) and I never use the TT during the autumn or the winter; only during the summer. The car did (appr.) 3000 Km since the installation of the Forge OCT and not once I had to drain it (as the amount of fluid collected was minimal). The level of fluid collected is easy to check as the Forge catch tank is supplied with a sight glass on the side. Drain intervals will vary heavily on the amount of blow-by gasses of the vehicle in question, how much the vehicle is driven, and ambient environmental conditions. More fluid will be collected in the tank in cooler temperatures compared to warmer weather.
> 3) Part number: On my car the correct Oil Catch Tank Kit is the "FMMK5CTC", that is the Forge Oil catch tank system for 2.0 litre FSi vehicles WITH a carbon filter installed. But, You will have to check if this is correct for your car? There is another option called the "FMMK5CT", wich is the Forge Oil catch tank system for 2.0 litre FSi vehicles WITHOUT carbon filter.
> 4) Price and cost: Do not bother about the cost. This is well invested money, no doubt about it! Further, if You download Forges installation's instructions (PDF-file) and read the paper carefully, You will spare some cash by installing the kit yourself, which is pretty easy. Only thing You might need help with (?) is to build a proper bracket.
> 5) I had some questions during the installation process and the guys at Forge were really helpfull.
> Good luck.
> Jeffe


Thanks Jeff, Very helpful. I will order one as soon as I can.


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## Jeffe

See above (Audi TT-Part Nr 06H 145 710 D).
Jeffe


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## Spooks

Jeffe said:


> See above (Audi TT-Part Nr 06H 145 710 D).
> Jeffe


Nice part Jeffe. What is it?


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## Jeffe

Hi Spooks. This is a (more reliable) diverter valve - Part number 06H 145 710 D Audi OEM ; a highly recommended mod after engine remapp on models 2008 or below. Easy to shift but on (my) TT I had to lift the car in order to access the part. This is not the case for the TTS as the part is accessible directly under the bonnet. Some guys choose aftermarkets diverter valves such as Forge's but I found this Audi OEM diverter valve (Part number 06H 145 710 D) as good as others and definitely cheaper.


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## Spooks

Jeffe said:


> Hi Spooks. This is a (more reliable) diverter valve - Part number 06H 145 710 D Audi OEM ; a highly recommended mod after engine remapp on models 2008 or below. Easy to shift but on (my) TT I had to lift the car in order to access the part. This is not the case for the TTS as the part is accessible directly under the bonnet. Some guys choose aftermarkets diverter valves such as Forge's but I found this Audi OEM diverter valve (Part number 06H 145 710 D) as good as others and definitely cheaper.


Will this do the same job as the Forge oil catch can? (Trev)


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## Jeffe

Will this do the same job as the Forge oil catch can? (Trev)[/quote]

Spooks:

1) The answer is NO: One of the weakest spots on any chipped 2.0T cars is the diverter valve. The fragile factory diaphragm can crack under high boost pressure and create a massive boost leak. This OEM valve (Diverter Valve - 06H145710D) from the new FSI motors features an upgraded piston type design.

2) The reason I named the diverter valve (Diverter Valve - 06H145710D) while writing about the Forge oil catch can is that the TYPE of diverter valve used on the car (that is "electrical" such as Audi OEM Diverter Valve - 06H145710D versus "non-electrical" such as Forge's diverter valve for instance) will affect the way You install the Forge oil catch can on the car. I am refering to the three provided vacuum nipples wich have different size holes to suit different needs. Using an electrical diverter valve means that the nipple with the largest hole (used for a mechanical DV reference) will be blocked. Further, the nipple with the smallest hole (used for a boost gauge) will be blocked if You do not have a boost gauge. The nipple with the middle size hole should be used for a water/meth injection reference or other accessory.

Maybe You should have a talk with the guys at Forge.

Jeffe


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## Spooks

Jeffe said:


> Will this do the same job as the Forge oil catch can? (Trev)


Spooks:

1) The answer is NO: One of the weakest spots on any chipped 2.0T cars is the diverter valve. The fragile factory diaphragm can crack under high boost pressure and create a massive boost leak. This OEM valve (Diverter Valve - 06H145710D) from the new FSI motors features an upgraded piston type design.

2) The reason I named the diverter valve (Diverter Valve - 06H145710D) while writing about the Forge oil catch can is that the TYPE of diverter valve used on the car (that is "electrical" such as Audi OEM Diverter Valve - 06H145710D versus "non-electrical" such as Forge's diverter valve for instance) will affect the way You install the Forge oil catch can on the car. I am refering to the three provided vacuum nipples wich have different size holes to suit different needs. Using an electrical diverter valve means that the nipple with the largest hole (used for a mechanical DV reference) will be blocked. Further, the nipple with the smallest hole (used for a boost gauge) will be blocked if You do not have a boost gauge. The nipple with the middle size hole should be used for a water/meth injection reference or other accessory.

Maybe You should have a talk with the guys at Forge.

Jeffe[/quote]

The engine is already fitted with the OEM Diverter Valve - 06H14510D I checked it this morning. 
Some time ago I worked with Ford and this problem was apparent then, perhaps not so detrimental to the inlet valves because of the indirect injection. The emulsified oil deposits would build up blocking the system totally and eventually the carbon build up on the valves would cause a compression drop. This was noticeably more on vehicles that were used for short daily journeys that barley got up to operating temperature. Vehicles that were used on longer commutes hardly suffered at all I suppose because the carbon had no time to stick. 
I was unable to find the pdf Fitting instructions on the Forge site, anyway I will ring them tomorrow and discuss the issue.
Thanks again your input has been very helpful.


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## conneem

Spooks said:


> The engine is already fitted with the OEM Diverter Valve - 06H14510D I checked it this morning.
> Some time ago I worked with Ford and this problem was apparent then, perhaps not so detrimental to the inlet valves because of the indirect injection. The emulsified oil deposits would build up blocking the system totally and eventually the carbon build up on the valves would cause a compression drop. This was noticeably more on vehicles that were used for short daily journeys that barley got up to operating temperature. Vehicles that were used on longer commutes hardly suffered at all I suppose because the carbon had no time to stick.
> I was unable to find the pdf Fitting instructions on the Forge site, anyway I will ring them tomorrow and discuss the issue.
> Thanks again your input has been very helpful.


That Ford case is interesting as I kind of suspected short trips where the oil does not get up to full temp might increase the chance of any deposits. Even on the newer engines, TSI and the 2.5TFSI they run the oil ~10oC hotter to lessen the carbon deposits, further suggesting the deposition and sticking occurs during short journeys where the oil doesn't get up to full temps.


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## Hadaak

Here is what I bought to make the Ultimate Catch Can :lol:

http://store.42draftdesigns.com/Mk5-20T ... p_296.html

Conversion Plate









PCV Plug & Tap









Mann Filter:

# Highly efficient oil separation as a closed as well as an open system providing ideal protection for the turbocharger and other components installed downstream
# Low pressure loss
# Less motor oil consumption in comparison to less efficient separators or conventional open systems
# No electrical energy required
# Universal usage: exceptional for variable flow rates
# Flexible installation locations on the engine or in the engine compartment
# Compact, light and robust design
# Integrated safety feature against irregularly high crankcase pressure
# Maintenance friendly: fittings are not removed during element maintenance
# Low running costs

















Need to buy some tubes to mount this this wekend or next one.

For those of you who have already mounted catch cans : please let me know if you have any comment or if I'm missing something


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## Hadaak

any update on this from those who have installed a catch can?
I haven't had the time to custom-install mine.


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## mrb191333

assume that the 3.2 six avoids this issue?
mike


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## Hadaak

no luck. direct injection = carbon build. at least that"s what I read.


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## Hadaak

anybody with some interesting feedback?


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## MoreGooderTT

After reading this entire thread, I've decided to revive it with a reply.

I've decided to have the BG Fuel and Air Induction cleaning service performed on my car at 15,000 mile intervals. I will also be changing my oil every 5000 miles.

Comments are certainly welcome and encouraged.


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## jbell

MoreGooderTT said:


> I will also be changing my oil every 5000 miles.


An utter waste of money with modern synthetic oils, they are designed to easily last between services.


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## MoreGooderTT

jbell said:


> MoreGooderTT said:
> 
> 
> 
> I will also be changing my oil every 5000 miles.
> 
> 
> 
> An utter waste of money with modern synthetic oils, they are designed to easily last between services.
Click to expand...

I agree that it is an extravagence. However, oil changes are still cheep as compared to engine problems. Besides, it certainly won't harm the car to change its blood twice as often. Its a small price compared to the monthly payment.


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## ajayp

I thought I had my list of issues carefully forumlated but then this has appeared from now where.

Started reading the thread but since it lasts for 15 pages can I just ask:

What is the actual problem? (simple explanation will do)
How does this harm the car?
Is this still a problem or fixed in any later models?

Thanks guys


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## MoreGooderTT

ajayp said:


> I thought I had my list of issues carefully forumlated but then this has appeared from now where.
> 
> Started reading the thread but since it lasts for 15 pages can I just ask:
> 
> What is the actual problem? (simple explanation will do)
> How does this harm the car?
> Is this still a problem or fixed in any later models?
> 
> Thanks guys


Yeah, I had the same reaction yesterday when I found this too. It's shocking, really. But, we Audi owners aren't alone.
The problem as I understand it is that since the fuel is injected into the combustion chamber rather than in the manifold (and thus across the valves), the cleaning agents in the fuel can't do their job properly.

It doesn't necessarily harm the car, but it robs performance and can cuase misfiring. This throws warnings and a CEL. Rough idling when cold are a common symptom.

After extensive searching yesterday, I've concluded that this has not been fixed for MY2011+. Perhaps with the Gen3 EA888 the dual fuel port design will improve matters, though the official documents site only fuel economy and emission controls as the sole reason for the new fuel introduction method.

The cleaning technique from BG is something offered by many dealers and auto service places in the US, and not just for direct injection or Audi's. I will be having this serivice done followed immediately by a fuel filter and oil change every 15K miles. Oil will only be the low SAPS type, which reportedly resuls in lower soot and sludge buildup in direct injected engine, and will be done on 5K intervals and not 10K as mentioned previously. If I still end up with misfires and rough cold start issues, I'll be bringing all of my documentation with me to the dealer for a resolution.

Keep ALL your records and receipts!

****** EDIT ******
I almost forgot the most important preventative measure that Audi recommends: Use only Top Tier fuels:
http://www.toptiergas.com/deposit_control.html. I am even going to keep my fuel receipts, onto which I will write my odometer (mileage) reading.


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## MoreGooderTT

Another reason this depresses me: I was planning on getting an APR Stage 1 tune at 15k miles, but since this issue came to my attention, it is now out of the question until the waranty expires. In fact, it may be a very, very long time because I'll likely pay for a waranty extension. (I don't have my car yet. It is still sitting in the Houston TX port).


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## MoreGooderTT

Here's an interesting thread on the topic (there are many scattered all over the web):
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ub ... 559&page=1

My advice to anyone reading this is to only use the methods mentioned that are Audi approved. We have to protect our warranties. This means Top Tier high octane fuel, BG service for periodic cleaning, and 505 spec'd low SAPS oil (Mobil 1 0w-40 for example).

I hope all of my blathering has helped a fellow forum member, and perhaps has settled some minds.


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## Hadaak

I never had time to mount my catch can. TT is 51.000 km old. It is starting to cough on cold startup !!!!


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## conneem

Hadaak said:


> I never had time to mount my catch can. TT is 51.000 km old. It is starting to cough on cold startup !!!!


From reading GTI forums It could be your PCV valve ,coil packs or even a leaky injector, fuel pressure regulator or low pressure fuel pump.

Also, are you still on the original spark plugs?

You can check the valve easy enough by taking it off, wiping the back clean and blowing though the two openings, you should only be able to blow through one.

For the injectors, other people have had good results with Techron Fuel System Cleaner.

Then other people have cured stuttering cold starts with new coil packs or the fuel pressure regulator 

This is probably the best route to go diagnosing it as it costs nothing to check the PCV valve, then a couple of pounds for the Fuel System cleaner, then close to 100 pounds for the new coilpacks and I don't know how much for the regulator & pump.


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## MoreGooderTT

Another thing I've read about today is something called an inverse oiler. I'm still not sure how it works, why it works, and if it's right for our vehicles. I sent a message to Ampcolubes for more details, and any proof that it works.

Here's one thread about it: [url=ht...w.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ub ... 061&page=1

I would think it would likely void the waranty though as it would be clearly visible in the engine bay once installed. Someone suggested removing it before going to the dealer. What a pain and potentially messy process that would be!

Can anyone in our forums comment on this?


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## MoreGooderTT

Here's another thread of interest:
http://shoforum.com/showthread.php?t=112770


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## MoreGooderTT

I've already heard back from Ampco Lubricators: His reply:


> Thank you for your enquiry. To date I have no definitive test results as to whether the use of a top cylinder oiler will prevent the carbon buildup on intake valves on DI engines, but I have sold a few kits to owners that believe this will solve the problem. One of them is doing a before/after test, and owns a scope which allows him to snake it through the inlet manifold to see what is going on.
> 
> I firmly believe that the use of the oiler with the correct oil/solvent will prevent this problem, as the only gas flowing over the intake valves is air and crankcase/exhaust emissions. Gasoline had a solvent effect that is is no longer reaching the valve heads. When I do have some definitive results, I will post them on my website.
> 
> Top cylinder oilers are considered 'old technology', and are not recognized (or even known of) by most modern mechanics. Sometimes to learn something new, one has to read an old book!
> 
> George Folchi
> 
> Ampco Lubricators LLC phone: 860-355-5706 fax: 860-355-8357 [email protected] Engineered for the Life of Your Engine


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## Hadaak

conneem said:


> Hadaak said:
> 
> 
> 
> I never had time to mount my catch can. TT is 51.000 km old. It is starting to cough on cold startup !!!!
> 
> 
> 
> From reading GTI forums It could be your PCV valve ,coil packs or even a leaky injector, fuel pressure regulator or low pressure fuel pump.
> 
> Also, are you still on the original spark plugs?
> 
> You can check the valve easy enough by taking it off, wiping the back clean and blowing though the two openings, you should only be able to blow through one.
> 
> For the injectors, other people have had good results with Techron Fuel System Cleaner.
> 
> Then other people have cured stuttering cold starts with new coil packs or the fuel pressure regulator
> 
> This is probably the best route to go diagnosing it as it costs nothing to check the PCV valve, then a couple of pounds for the Fuel System cleaner, then close to 100 pounds for the new coilpacks and I don't know how much for the regulator & pump.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the tips. I'l still running on original plugs.
I will try diagnosing this as you said. It's not a big issue but if the TT sleeps outside sometimes the couohing occurs. sometimes even when it sleeps inside. I have noticed that if I turn the key to accessory position and wait about 30 seconds for all the electronic components to initialize and all the ticking to stop no coughing occurs !!!! not sure but I'll do some further testing and report back.


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## MoreGooderTT

Hadaak said:


> conneem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hadaak said:
> 
> 
> 
> I never had time to mount my catch can. TT is 51.000 km old. It is starting to cough on cold startup !!!!
> 
> 
> 
> From reading GTI forums It could be your PCV valve ,coil packs or even a leaky injector, fuel pressure regulator or low pressure fuel pump.
> 
> Also, are you still on the original spark plugs?
> 
> You can check the valve easy enough by taking it off, wiping the back clean and blowing though the two openings, you should only be able to blow through one.
> 
> For the injectors, other people have had good results with Techron Fuel System Cleaner.
> 
> Then other people have cured stuttering cold starts with new coil packs or the fuel pressure regulator
> 
> This is probably the best route to go diagnosing it as it costs nothing to check the PCV valve, then a couple of pounds for the Fuel System cleaner, then close to 100 pounds for the new coilpacks and I don't know how much for the regulator & pump.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks for the tips. I'l still running on original plugs.
> I will try diagnosing this as you said. It's not a big issue but if the TT sleeps outside sometimes the couohing occurs. sometimes even when it sleeps inside. I have noticed that if I turn the key to accessory position and wait about 30 seconds for all the electronic components to initialize and all the ticking to stop no coughing occurs !!!! not sure but I'll do some further testing and report back.
Click to expand...

Fuel pumps don't develop fuel pressure instantaniously. Give it a sec to spin up, then turn the key. For some cars, though, they've incorporated the fuel pump start as soon as you open the driver side door. Not sure about the TT though. If that's the case, then there's ample time for the pump to build up pressure between opening the door and turning the key.


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## Hadaak

TT does have fuel pump start on driver door unlock (key fob). There is a connection under the back seats (coupé) which you have to disconnect if you want to change the fuel filter. this connection prevents the fuel pump from arming on driver door unlock.


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## TT-driver

On mine I can hear the pump building up pressure as I open the door. Not while unlocking it.


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## Hadaak

yes. on door open :wink:


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