# Cam Chain Tensioner replacement



## maltloaf (May 8, 2015)

Morning all,

I am slowly tackling all the required jobs on my high mile Mk1 2002 180bhp quattro and I think next on the list is the cam chain tensioner. Everything is quiet and sounds spot on during cold idle but at warm idle it sounds like a diesel !

I have never done anything internal to any engine before so at the moment I have a healthy fear of it but I'm willing to have a go. I know which end of a spanner is which, I have a fairly decent set of home workshop quality tools and am good at following instructions so hopefully I will be ok.

I have found this guide which seems fairly straightforward http://www.passatworld.com/forums/b5-in ... ioner.html

Is there anything else I should note before I start ? Any special tools I need apart from the tensioner tool ? Anything I might not have thought of or any pit falls to a novice mechanic taking this on ? Or should I cave in and get a pro to do it ?

As for the parts I was amazed to learn that the part from TPS is a whopping £471.44 inc VAT. I would always go genuine if I could but once you factor in the extra bits needed such as gaskets, it makes it a £500 job for the parts alone. I have found a kit of parts on eBay including the required gaskets for £70 all in ! Since the car only cost me £1400 this is obviously the more attractive option and I could change it 7 times before it would cost more than the OE part ! Apart from the usual risks of using pattern parts is there any reason I should not use one for this application and why on earth is the OE part so expensive ?

Another thing I'm not sure about is gasket sealant. What should I use, how much should I use and where ?

Sorry for all the noob questions. I'm keen to have a go but I want to be as confident as I can be that I'll manage the job ok. Any other info that anyone can add would be gratefully received.

Many thanks,

malty


----------



## poor1 (Dec 28, 2011)

Are you sure that it's not a cam belt replacement your'e thinking about?

http://www.audiworld.com/forums/tt-mk1- ... s-1961739/


----------



## maltloaf (May 8, 2015)

poor1 said:


> Are you sure that it's not a cam belt replacement your'e thinking about?
> 
> http://www.audiworld.com/forums/tt-mk1- ... s-1961739/


yes, positive. Cam chain tensioner.

cam belt, water pump and pulleys have already been done (by previous owner within the last 10000 miles).


----------



## Boruki (Mar 2, 2014)

I'm not sure that the tensioner would cause it to sound like a diesel? I had a stretched chained on my old engine and it wasn't diesel sounding at all.

What did make it sound like a diesel was loose manifold/turbo or turbo/doe pipe gaskets. If you've not checked these then I'd definitely do so before shelling out £500 on a chain. You can probably find a new block for that price.

Also.. You have to ask yourself why something is cheaper when it's the same product - it will come down to workmanship and material quality almost every time. The only exclusion to this I can think of is a sudden drop in marketable costs/market flooding. Something internal and as important as the tensioner I'd say go OEM or don't bother. Just my opinion though.


----------



## maltloaf (May 8, 2015)

Boruki said:


> I'm not sure that the tensioner would cause it to sound like a diesel? I had a stretched chained on my old engine and it wasn't diesel sounding at all.
> 
> What did make it sound like a diesel was loose manifold/turbo or turbo/doe pipe gaskets. If you've not checked these then I'd definitely do so before shelling out £500 on a chain. You can probably find a new block for that price.
> 
> Also.. You have to ask yourself why something is cheaper when it's the same product - it will come down to workmanship and material quality almost every time. The only exclusion to this I can think of is a sudden drop in marketable costs/market flooding. Something internal and as important as the tensioner I'd say go OEM or don't bother. Just my opinion though.


I have checked as much of the pipework and everything else as I can Everything seems fine. Diesel sounding may be a bit excessive as a description but from what I understand, if the tensioner is failing (or failed) the chain slops around a bit, especially when idling, and that's the noise I'm hearing, like a low percussive rattle and only at idle and only when warm. During driving I haven't noticed any excessive noise and the car drives/boosts/etc fine.

I haven't taken the cover off to check if it's failed yet. If I'm going to do that I might as well change the part whilst I'm at it.

As regards your comment on OE vs pattern I hear you. I'd always use OE if I could (and have only used OE for my jobs so far) but whilst I am enjoying using this TT as a learning experience (it's a fun/project car and I have another to use if needs be), I cannot justify dropping £500 on a part for a £1400 car so it's probably pattern part or nothing on this occasion.

Many thanks,

malty


----------



## Boruki (Mar 2, 2014)

Okay, that makes some sense then .

Fair enough on the parts- it makes sense in your situation I guess and could potentially benefit others on here in the long run. One of the reasons I ended up with a new block was due to chain stretching and the costs involved in all of that.

It'd be great if you could let us know how it goes .


----------



## maltloaf (May 8, 2015)

absolutely, I always follow my threads through if I reach a conclusion.

I stripped everything down today and I'm glad I did. Both gaskets mere very brittle and cracked. They fell to pieces as I took them off and the spark plug holes had oil in them.

I might have found a compromise parts wise, rather than going for an ebay cheapy which might be terrible quality, I have found them in stock at my local GSF motor factor place, running about £200 plus the required gaskets on top but it does mean I can have them tomorrow. I'm trying to find some discount codes or someone local that could get it trade for me but no luck so far.

I've got as far as removing the cam caps on the inlet side, marking the cams and chain for timing purposes and loosening off everything I can in preparation for when I get the tensioner and tool.


----------



## fixitagaintomoz (Apr 26, 2013)

Have you replaced the oil pickup pipe at all? A blocked pipe could lead to low oil pressure which the tensioner relies on. It's a much cheaper thing to replace first and is good to do if there's no evidence of it being done. As the oil gets hotter it's at lower pressure so that would make sense to me.....


----------



## maltloaf (May 8, 2015)

Thanks for that. It's on the list to do also. Is there a how to for a 180 quattro available for that ?

Thank you.

malty


----------



## maltloaf (May 8, 2015)

Well, I had all the parts queued up in my GSF basket last night, about £230 all in, but then I started worrying about cost (I'm trying to do everything on a pretty tight budget).

Whilst looking, found a CCT on eBay really close to me and REALLY cheap. It's an aftermarket one but comes with VAG gaskets and quality looks ok in the photos.

I'm picking it up this morning, for a measly £45 including genuine gaskets. If it's obviously rubbish quality I will sell it on and go back to plan A. 
If I fit it, it fails and I end up re-doing it because the part is crap then so be it, at least I would have learned the process and more about my engine.

Excited about trying it either way. It's only been 24h but I'm already missing driving my TT.


----------



## Boruki (Mar 2, 2014)

The pickup is two bolts when the sump is off . Real easy!


----------



## fixitagaintomoz (Apr 26, 2013)

maltloaf said:


> Well, I had all the parts queued up in my GSF basket last night, about £230 all in, but then I started worrying about cost (I'm trying to do everything on a pretty tight budget).
> 
> Whilst looking, found a CCT on eBay really close to me and REALLY cheap. It's an aftermarket one but comes with VAG gaskets and quality looks ok in the photos.
> 
> ...


If it fails totally you'll need to replace valves and maybe Pistons- is it worth the risk? Seriously do the pickup pipe first, it's too simple and cheap to not do first


----------



## maltloaf (May 8, 2015)

An eventful day. I'll describe exactly what happened in detail in case it helps the next noob that comes along, Including a couple of screw ups, a bad tool and some newbie mistakes, so apologies for the long post.

Picked the tensioner up this morning as planned. Seemed solid enough so I thought I'd give it a go.

first I trapped the new one in my workmate and unscrewed the tensioner retaining tool so i could use it to compress my old tensioner.

I started to tighten it up but as soon as there was any tension on it, it split right in half along the moulded seam 

I was gutted now because I wanted to get it done, as much for the experience as anything else so I spent the next hour trying to cobble together a bracket or something to do the job but nothing seemed to want to work.

Demoralised, I went back in the house and called round some of the local places. TPS said only main dealers now carry service tools. Audi and VW both told me 5-10 working days. I had some success at GSF who had an equivalent part from Laser Tools and would order me one for tomorrow morning. That will have to do I thought.

Anyway I was just clearing away the tools and closing up my garage when I noticed a pack of cable ties and wondered if they would be strong enough to hold the tension. I put two together and sure enough it was good enough to keep the tension on my new part.

I dug out my high powered light which I use for cycling at night and with that, a small screwdriver and some needle nosed pliers, I was able to thread a cable tie through between the chain and the bottom shoe of the tensioner and then attached to another one, up over the top shoe. I then compressed the top shoe plunger, pushing it down with a large screwdriver and kept pulling the cable tie to tighten it a click at a time until fully compressed.

The fight began then, trying to angle out the intake cam, raise it and pull it out at the same time. It took me a good 20 minutes of wiggling and moving and eventually it gave in and the lot slid out. I cleaned up the area and put some sealant on the new CCT gasket and at the edges of the half moon seal and placed them where they needed to go.

I was elated by this and immediately proceeded to try to fit my cable tie tensioned new part. it was MUCH harder getting the new one in than it was getting the old one out. It probably took me a good 40 minutes but finally it went in.

Once tightened down it didn't seem quite tight to me, like something wasn't quite lined up, but not really knowing what to look for, I spend a few minutes head scratching and examining the area and then noticed that the chain was rock solid tight and then saw why. The intake cam sprocket was in fact stuck on the metal side of the tensioner, so rather than being in the area where it could run freely, it was 3-4mm higher and fouling on the CCT body.

The timing marks were still correct and there were 16 pins between the cam marks so I couldn't quite work out why it had happened but I think that it had been slightly high when putting it in and the small amount of slack which would have been in the chain was infact all underneath if you can see what I mean.

I played with it for a while trying to tease it past without damaging anything but there was no way it was going to go past the lip of metal.

I resigned myself to re-attaching my makeshift retainer tool and removing and refitting the tensioner, this time paying extra attention to the position of the camshaft sprocket

The cable tie retainer went back on and was steadily pulled tight again and after angling everything out and back in once more all of a sudden everything was lined up. The cam sprocket was no longer fouling on the CCT and it looked good. I tightened down the CCT bolts evenly and then started replacing the cam caps.

I tightened down all the exhaust caps first, alternating around the bolts to tighten them down evenly until everything was snugged up. I then did the same for the inlet side, replacing caps 3, 5, 2, 4, 1 in that order and then lastly the double cap at the cam belt end, with some sealant underneath that one for good measure.

I then torqued up all of the cam cap screws to 10nm using my torque wrench, working in opposites and sequentially until every screw was properly torqued up.

I was on the home straight now so I put some gasket sealant on the corners of the gasket surface, and a little dab wherever there was a corner or a change in level and put the gasket and then the cam cover on and torqued down all 9 bolts.

I then spotted that I had forgotten the oil splash guards so I removed the cover again and placed them over the inlet cam and re-replaced the cover.

I was keen to test the car at this point so I quickly put the coil packs back in, in the order that they had come out, attached the cabling for them and reattached the PCV/PRV breather hoses.

I turned the car over and for a minute or two it would not fire. I had been warned of this so I didn't panic and kept on winding the engine.

Eventually it chugged into life. I mean chugged too, it sounded terrible but I let it run for a while thinking it might be building up compression, again as I had read in various places, but sadly it didn't get better.

I turned the car off and then noticed that one of the coil packs wasn't completely pushed down. I re-seated this and also all the other three and this time the car purred into life and sounded right.

I let it tick over sat there until it was properly warm and watched the cooling fans come on and off a couple of times at which point it would usually have started rattling at idle. No rattle.

I took the car for a tentative drive and everything seemed fine. It was driving normally and definitely sounded quieter, even throughout the rev range. I hadn't noticed rattle there before but it definitely seemed quieter.

Idling was lovely and quiet after my quick drive which included some hard accelerating and some steady driving.

Time will tell if my eBay cheap part will last but as of right now I'm a happy bunny.

Thanks,

malty


----------



## maltloaf (May 8, 2015)

fixitagaintomoz said:


> If it fails totally you'll need to replace valves and maybe Pistons- is it worth the risk? Seriously do the pickup pipe first, it's too simple and cheap to not do first


This is next on the list for me to learn and do. Thank you. BTW I read your build thread from start to finish this morning. An epic for sure and very inspiring.

I'm pleased as punch with what I've achieved today with little to no mechanical knowledge but your build makes my efforts look as simple as wiping your bum !


----------



## poor1 (Dec 28, 2011)

Well done with your description of the fight you had with the cam chain tensioner.
This might be useful when you do the pickup:
No need to replace the sump bolts.
It might be useful to reiterate a post I put up a few months ago on the subject to keep it all under one roof as users do not bother searching themselves and the information becomes fragmented with subsequent questions which have already been answered:
Audi Sump: a few notes put together in the hope it might help someone:
Pitfalls. - the two corner bolt at screws into the Flange Seal. Corrosion due to the top of the7mm bolts (10mm spanner) being exposed to the elements means that the aluminium threads can be stripped when extracting the bolts.. This seems to be a common problem. If the threads need to be cleaned up it's a 7mm tap, an unusual size, although the spanner size is 10mm. If the thread is ruined consider tapping them out to 8mm as an interim measure and replace the seal flange next time the timing belt is changed. Another alternative would be to run a 7mm tap through and use longer (1 ¾ inch 7mm bolts with a nut on the other end on the seal flange side. New seal flange about £80.00 part number 038 103 151 H.
The awkward bolts at the transmission end are easily removed with a long wobble ¼ inch extension and 10mm socket and then use a long 5mm wobble Allen key once it is released. Replacing them is not difficult with the bolts on the end of the long Allen key so long as it's a reasonably tight fit. Removing oil pump with the sprocket attached not straightforward because it's under pressure from the tensioner. It can be done because others have done it. . Bentley says leave sprocket in place, removing fixing bolt with torx spanner. Once removed the tensioner can be reached, some of the spring pressure released and the pump reassembled (25 Nm sprocket) with a sprocket and slipped onto the chain.
To align and locate the sump when replacing use two 7mm studs (or two cut off bolts with a SLOT cut into them for a screwdriver). The sump will then be accurately located and the sealant not disturbed.. First insert the three large, one use, transmission to sump bolts finger tight, the torque up the small 7mm bolts (10mm spanner). The large transmission to sump bolts are finally tightened to 45nm, but not possible to get a conventional torque wrench onto them. .
Should it be necessary awkward to reach any bolt holes with damaged threads they can be retapped using a ¼ drive extension in reverse with the socket on the tap end and a tap wrench on the other.
Another peculiarity is the turbo return flange to sump. The gasket, which comprises of a thin steel plate coated with black plastic on both sides. One side of the gasket, coinciding with the return hole, is slightly raised and that side of the gasket goes against the oil return pipe flange. In addition it is not concentric and should be studied carefully in order to fit it correctly. On one side the outer edge has a raised hump and the gasket should be fitted with this at the top. The vehicle needs to be well raised in order to see this, so it is better to study it before replacing the sump. Torque setting 15Nm.
A good tip I READ ON this forum and is in line with the Bentley advice is to finger tighten the three transmission to sump bolts first and then torque up the twenty 7mm (10mm spanner size) sump setscrews. It made no mention of making the guide studs described above, but I would recommend it to get the sump correctly the first time.
As the oil pump and strainer were replaced I had intended to spin the engine before firing it up, which is good practice, but it's quite time consuming to set it up to do this, so I made sure the oil pump and filter were well primed with oil before reassembling and the oil light did not even show once the engine had started. Suggested methods for the purists of spinning the engine without starting the engine are taking out the spark plugs or running a wire from the positive terminal of the battery to the starter solenoid without using the ignition key. 
Before starting this job it would be as well to have another half dozen sump bolts to hand (SN90735604), and a 7mm' second' tap in case there are stripped threads on the seal flange. A tap is quite useful to clean out the other threaded holes of sealant in any case. (7mm is an unusual size tap so you need to order one beforehand)
You may find that the aluminium sump is full of hairline cracks through having been whacked and should be replaced, so weigh up all these possibilities before starting the work.. 
The most useful tools for this particular job are 1/4 drive wobble extensions, a long 5mm Allen key, a 1/4 drive TORQUE WRENCH and a set of Metric hex bits for use with a ratchet.
Other parts needed:
The three 10mm transmission to sump bolts are supposed to be one use. (Two 10mmx 50mm- N908 704 01 and one 10mm x 105mm - which used to be N102 421 02 and now superseded by N10692701)Sealant D176 404 A2 - which is reasonably priced. There are other sealants such as Dirko, but the original VW sealant is nothing like as ridiculously expensive as that used on Honda.Oil Strainer 06A 115 251 Oil strainer to pump O ring N028 222 2
Oil Pump 06A 115 105 B (for the 225 cylinder Quattro)Turbo return gasket 058145757AShould the oil sensor be removed the gasket number is 038103196


----------



## maltloaf (May 8, 2015)

Thank you that will be very useful.


----------



## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

Well done. Sounds like you had a fight on your hands. Did you not see the cam chain tensioner How To in the Mk1 Knowledge Base? Bit late now but I'll try and link in your thread there too as it's all useful information


----------



## Boruki (Mar 2, 2014)

This is good to see as I'm sure I'll be changing mine over on the old block if I decide to do the work..

Glad you got it working! Fingers crossed it's solid.


----------



## maltloaf (May 8, 2015)

John-H said:


> Well done. Sounds like you had a fight on your hands. Did you not see the cam chain tensioner How To in the Mk1 Knowledge Base? Bit late now but I'll try and link in your thread there too as it's all useful information


I hadn't seen that, I have no idea how I missed it as I've scanned through those pages loads of times. Just had a quick look and there are a number of disassembly procedures that aren't needed for the 180 but otherwise it reassuringly confirms I did everything required.

The comment about giving the cct a wiggle until it comes out did make me chuckle, makes it sound much easier than it is (for me anyway)!


----------



## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

It was done by an engine builder by trade - it was probably a wiggle to him :lol:


----------



## fixitagaintomoz (Apr 26, 2013)

maltloaf said:


> fixitagaintomoz said:
> 
> 
> > If it fails totally you'll need to replace valves and maybe Pistons- is it worth the risk? Seriously do the pickup pipe first, it's too simple and cheap to not do first
> ...


Haha mate your description reminded me of how I felt the first time I did similar things on my car- but the more you do the easier it all becomes. Glad it sounds quieter- any chance of a video of it running for people to reference what a healthy tensioner sounds like?


----------



## maltloaf (May 8, 2015)

I might well do that but I do have a squeaky pulley somewhere which would probably stick out like a sore thumb. I think it's the (non functioning) air con compressor - but that's yet another job...

The pressure switch is working, there's gas in the system and it seems to be commanding the compressor to start according to the codes - but it never does kick in.

I haven't looked any further yet, such as where the compressor is fed from etc. I live in hope that it's just a relay or something gone bad but I reckon the clutch has gone on the compressor and from what I've seen it's a pig of a job to do.


----------



## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

See the How To for the aircon clutch in the Mk 1 Knowledge base


----------



## maltloaf (May 8, 2015)

Already got there this time ;-) although I think I have some fault finding to do before I go that far...

and I've resurrected my original thread to save this one from going too far off topic.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=996329

Thanks

malty


----------



## maltloaf (May 8, 2015)

As requested I've taken a video now my idle is nice and quiet. I know I'm missing clips on the breather hoses and the vacuum reservoir needs bolting down. Hopefully do those today


----------

