# TT RS air intake upgrade? Or not?



## Ewi1982 (Nov 12, 2020)

I have purchased the Ramair intake for my 8j TTRS Plus DSG as the first mod to be followed by EVO2 wagner downpipe and sports cats, FMIC, and an ECU and TCU tune all happening next week   (expecting up to 450bhp / 650Nm)

Anyway, i made some tests before and after Ramair install. Found myself Very surprised by new 0-60specs (i use draggy which is highly accurate)

Car does sounds better and more powerful. Turbo can be heard spooling nicely too..

Stock 0-60mph
Run1 4.09
Run2 4.04
Run3 3.97
Run4 4.02

Ramair installed 0-60mph
Run1 4.11
Run2 4.20
Run3 4.14
Run4 4.16

Unless its my imagination, it kind of feels like its shifting late after burnout. With stock air intake, DSG felt smoother at shifts and more precise. Could it be DSG or ECU needs a remap since air mixture has changed?

What is understandable is that the stock airbox is completely enclosed (unlike exposed ramair cone) which prevents very hot engine bay air to be sucked in causing loss in power - but then again....for all i know it is a well known fact that aftermarket air intake systems are supposed to give your car that extra 4 to 10bhp gain...
Does anyone know whats causing slower (all so slightly) acceleration ?

Mostly confused. [smiley=bigcry.gif] But quite disappointed to say the least.


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## Danny1 (Sep 2, 2010)

Were they same piece of road, same temps of tyres and road surface, was the car the same temp, were you using launch control? There are too many variables to say its just the filter doing that or not, I personally dont think the filter is slowing down the times its more coincidence hence alot more testing needed. Also it is irrelevant as like you say you have many more mods coming this week, get it all done then test again if its bothering you. I run stage 2 and the Revo intake which is similar and I dont feel its an issue. As for hot air because there is no plastic box round it is a silly myth as where does the air go straight after it goes through the filter, the turbo which gets ridiculously hot(its now hotter than any ambient temp), hence it then goes through the intercooler which cools it before getting into the engine.


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## Ewi1982 (Nov 12, 2020)

Danny1 said:


> Were they same piece of road, same temps of tyres and road surface, was the car the same temp, were you using launch control? There are too many variables to say its just the filter doing that or not, I personally dont think the filter is slowing down the times its more coincidence hence alot more testing needed. Also it is irrelevant as like you say you have many more mods coming this week, get it all done then test again if its bothering you. I run stage 2 and the Revo intake which is similar and I dont feel its an issue. As for hot air because there is no plastic box round it is a silly myth as where does the air go straight after it goes through the filter, the turbo which gets ridiculously hot(its now hotter than any ambient temp), hence it then goes through the intercooler which cools it before getting into the engine.


Hey danny. Thanks for yr reply.

Variables were the same. Same road, 2hrs between filter swap, car same temp, and both tests done with launch control.

Yes, the modz might improve the air intakes performance i believe since the upgraded engine would require more airflow, justifying the aftermarket air intake. But installing the airintake on stock, only changes the sound ive learnt.

I disagree with you regarding the hot/cold air sucked in from filter to turbo. Ive learnt that colder air is denser hence contains more oxygen which increases performance ultimately. Yes. The air needs to travel to the hot turbo and recooled through FMIC but the reason they are called cold air intakes is purely to enhance cold air circulation. 4 test runs have been done and not 1 showed any figures higher than stock...


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## MugelloRS (Jul 14, 2020)

I thought the same but I have no data to back it up, just feels a little slower. I have the RAMAir and scorpion decats.

Slightly off topic, when you go stage two, are you not getting an exhaust system too (catback in your case)?


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## Barr_end (Oct 19, 2016)

Want to try cover a couple of points on this, don't mean them to sound blunt. Just trying to get it all in here.

Firstly, do not go evo 2 wagner cooler! They aren't any good on TTRS. Which suffers with heatsoak on the stock cooler at stock power! :roll: 
Was at MRC on the 28th and he said even the 3 isn't up to scratch. Go forge, seriously.

Dragy - It's much more accurate than a phone granted. But they aren't that accurate at all. May be able to measure at 10 herts so 10 times a second. But the pick up for slope is terrible and changes like the wind.
I have one myself and use it plenty. It's good enough, but I certainly wouldn't be splitting hairs on the measurements you've recorded...

Especially as it may of been 2 hours apart on the same day, but ambient temp, humidity, dampness, exact road positioning, tyre temps, time between each run, weight of items and fuel in the car, everything more than these too, is too much of a variable for back to back test, especially in a road car, on the road.

Danny is also 100% right on cold air... For a turbo car.
You're about to send that air through a 500+C (more like 700-900, check your EGT's) turbo, the ambient into the filter being the difference between closed box and not, is not going to change anything.
As stated that's what the intercooler is for.

Back to the times, I really would not be concerned anyways, but with you also planning to go to stage 2 very shortly, I'd personally take both the ramair and the stock airbox with you and see if the tuning company will do some testing, on which they think shows better to the mapping characteristics of the car.

But I'll round this up with, no 'cold air' / 'open cone' / 'pod filter' however it's worded will increase power on a stock car.
The mapping characterises on VAG platform ECU's don't have enough variance to change for the difference, if there even is one.
The 8J TTS & TTRS stock airboxes are a very good design. For a TTRS you're barely going to see the difference with a open filter even at 'stage 2' Beyond this point the stock box will become a restriction.
But until then an open filter is purely for noise and if you prefer the look in the engine bay.
Personally fitted a ramair to a mates TTRS and don't think the kits any good, my original kit for my TTS was much better...
However they do use the worse filter which is very small on both of these kits and I'm still not sure why.

Before anyone also says I'm against open filters....
This is my TTS... :lol:


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## Ewi1982 (Nov 12, 2020)

MugelloRS said:


> I thought the same but I have no data to back it up, just feels a little slower. I have the RAMAir and scorpion decats.
> 
> Slightly off topic, when you go stage two, are you not getting an exhaust system too (catback in your case)?


No mate. Re exhaust, no cat back required - it mainly only effects loudness which is not something im crazy about. Im just installing a wagner turbo back system ie downpipe and high flow sports cats. Enough for required stg2 power gains.


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## Ewi1982 (Nov 12, 2020)

Barr_end said:


> Want to try cover a couple of points on this, don't mean them to sound blunt. Just trying to get it all in here.
> 
> Firstly, do not go evo 2 wagner cooler! They aren't any good on TTRS. Which suffers with heatsoak on the stock cooler at stock power! :roll:
> Was at MRC on the 28th and he said even the 3 isn't up to scratch. Go forge, seriously.
> ...


Thanks for your feedback. I cant agree with you re Wagner on ttrs. Wagner are proven to be amongst the best when it comes to flow and quality and i have done quite some in depth research before pulling the trigger. 1 of the very few who publish their performance actual temp results. The ttrs showed a drastic decrease in temp over the stock fmic. Which is exactly what is required. Attached wagner graph. 100% proven. Stock 75degC / Wagner 40degC 

My main concern at this point is not the 10th of a second difference but as i mentioned previously it feels like its shifting late after burnout. With stock air intake, DSG felt smoother at shifts and more precise. Could it be DSG or ECU needs a remap since air mixture has changed?


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## Barr_end (Oct 19, 2016)

Ewi1982 said:


> Thanks for your feedback. I cant agree with you re Wagner on ttrs. Wagner are proven to be amongst the best when it comes to flow and quality and i have done quite some in depth research before pulling the trigger. 1 of the very few who publish their performance actual temp results. The ttrs showed a drastic decrease in temp over the stock fmic. Which is exactly what is required. Attached wagner graph. 100% proven. Stock 75degC / Wagner 40degC
> 
> My main concern at this point is not the 10th of a second difference but as i mentioned previously it feels like its shifting late after burnout. With stock air intake, DSG felt smoother at shifts and more precise. Could it be DSG or ECU needs a remap since air mixture has changed?


Honestly, just ring the best in the business for these engines.... MRC tuning.
They'll tell you, exactly what you need to know for 2.5L Tuning, straight from the source.
Like said, visited there within the last 2 weeks, talking with Doug about hardware for the friends currently stage 1 TTRS, planning on going stage 2.
Doug said steer clear of the wagner and just pay the extra, as annoyingly priced as the Forge is, for obvious reasons. 
The pressure difference across the wagners is 1.5-2 PSI, that's a huge pressure drop.
When tuning on a TTE500 they see a 30-40hp INCREASE running forge over a wagner, due to the pressure drop.
Figure difference isn't as large at stage 2 but still more than noticeable and you will not maximise your tuning potential by limiting it with the hardware, and it will experience heat soak sooner than the forge too.

If you did any extensive research you'd of seen that the Forge is the best, it's everywhere I've ever seen it, even prior to the visit up north last month.

I've got nothing to gain here, you're tuning potential is what will be limited :-|

I am no RS man, I have my TTS and I know it, inside out.

I'm literally just trying to relay exact words, from the biggest from the UK in the 2.5 world. 
Doug has his opinion from many years and many car set ups, and that's why his opinion is worth listening too, its come from many years of experience.
He wasn't there trying to sell his own parts (not that they manufacture any I don't believe) or even buy these said manufactures parts through them to make the mark up on them.

Purely speaking from experience, saying what my friend should do for his car to be at full capability. Seeing as I'm the monkey that pulls it apart and makes it work and understands it was on me to know the information.

if you choose to listen or not, that's more than fine.
I just try and type things like this for the bigger TT community that may stumble across it, so the correct information is out there. Or enough to show others, they should research it themselves and get it right the first time.


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## Danny1 (Sep 2, 2010)

Ewi1982 said:


> Danny1 said:
> 
> 
> > Were they same piece of road, same temps of tyres and road surface, was the car the same temp, were you using launch control? There are too many variables to say its just the filter doing that or not, I personally dont think the filter is slowing down the times its more coincidence hence alot more testing needed. Also it is irrelevant as like you say you have many more mods coming this week, get it all done then test again if its bothering you. I run stage 2 and the Revo intake which is similar and I dont feel its an issue. As for hot air because there is no plastic box round it is a silly myth as where does the air go straight after it goes through the filter, the turbo which gets ridiculously hot(its now hotter than any ambient temp), hence it then goes through the intercooler which cools it before getting into the engine.
> ...


Thats ok mate, your more than welcome to disagree with me, just remember you asked for advice and its pretty much common sense what I said regarding air intakes on turbo cars and is very easy to see if you look at google for eg on how an intercooler works on turbo cars.


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## MugelloRS (Jul 14, 2020)

All great advice guys, thank you for taking the time to add so much detail about this topic! Very helpful


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## Ewi1982 (Nov 12, 2020)

Danny1 said:


> Ewi1982 said:
> 
> 
> > Danny1 said:
> ...


Thanks guys! Really appreciated your detailed input. Every day is a learning curve..will add some details and specs of my newly tuned RSplus soon


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## Ewi1982 (Nov 12, 2020)

Danny1 said:


> Ewi1982 said:
> 
> 
> > Danny1 said:
> ...


Thanks again for your feedback Danny. Appreciated. However my common sense is based on having enough knowledge on how the basics of a turbo and intercooler work. My point being that the 700-1000degC mentioned above is true - but that is on the compressor side of the turbo amd not on the turbine side. A turbo has a bi-function and is based on a compressor exhaust (hot) side which is spooled by a shaft directly connected to the turbine (cold) side which is the side where COLD air intake is required. Does this make any sense to you?


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## Danny1 (Sep 2, 2010)

Ewi1982 said:


> Thanks again for your feedback Danny. Appreciated. However my common sense is based on having enough knowledge on how the basics of a turbo and intercooler work. My point being that the 700-1000degC mentioned above is true - but that is on the compressor side of the turbo amd not on the turbine side. A turbo has a bi-function and is based on a compressor exhaust (hot) side which is spooled by a shaft directly connected to the turbine (cold) side which is the side where COLD air intake is required. Does this make any sense to you?


Yeah but 700 degrees on one side of a metal object will be basically 700 degrees on the other  the point being anyway the heat given off by the turbo is way way way more than the heat under the bonnet hence the air going into the filter will then get substantially hotter as it passes through the turbo which is why you have an intercooler etc etc. I also think this relates to what Barr end said with relation to the wagner v forge, he isnt saying the wagner does work, just that the forge is better and is going to give you lower temps for much longer periods as has been proven hence its alot more money but worth it if you want to max performance.


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## davectr (Sep 9, 2012)

It's well known that the TTRS suffers from heat soak and the open filters of any design don't give any power, they usually lose it - hence the times you're seeing. As stated above the stock air box is very good on these cars, however the statement about them only being good up to stage 2+ is incorrect. They are good for up to around 600bhp with an extra intake pipe taken from the front bumper lower vent (passenger side) up into the air box.I ran my stage 3 RS (575bhp) like this with no issues

Save your money , stick with the stock air box and spend your money on something else


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## Ewi1982 (Nov 12, 2020)

Update:   

My RS Plus is finally complete! Wagner FMIC Evo2, Wagner Downpipe and Sports Cats, Ramair Air filter, ECU and TCU tune. Everything has been installed and 12hr fruitful labour has gone into the ECU and TCU tuning!

Extremely happy with results!!

*Stock:*
355bhp
465Nm

*Current:* :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: 
466bhp
596Nm

Drives incredibly smoothly and flawlessly when driving slow, but the Beast is truly unleashed upon pedal to metal!


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## qooqiiu (Oct 12, 2007)

Interesting numbers. I've not seen 466 on the stock turbo.

Torque is about 100nm down on what it could be.


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## french (Oct 7, 2018)

You know qooqiiu I was looking at that & thinking more or less the same, my chart shows 419ps so whats that 412bhp?
& 663Nm . Stage 1 ,Flat panel K&N, Scorpion secondary pipes & thats it Oh it did need a new HPFP as mine was a bit weak .
The only difference is it was done @ MRC ...is there Dyno's a bit over Optimistic ?
It goes like blinkin hell with no problems whatsoever since it was done @ MRC in 2017.

I've been thinking of gutting the main front pipe , uprated Cooler & going back but not sure how much of a difference that would achieve for the £...
PS to Danny, Logical & common sense regarding turbo's ,the open filter & hot air etc ...It had passed me by mind you so yeah spot on mate!


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## qooqiiu (Oct 12, 2007)

Your figures are fine.

MRC here too.

426PS
670NM

APR downpipe only.

Regarding the Dyno...mine was running revo before and it showed 395ps and 550Nm so just as revo claim.


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## Ewi1982 (Nov 12, 2020)

Ok. Thanks for your input. So are you saying that the figures he provided me with are not accurate? Can you explain how this can be possible? In the meantime I have texted my tuner and asked him how does my output differ so much to both of yours at MRC?? - ie - lower bhp and higher torque.....Feeling lost.....


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## Barr_end (Oct 19, 2016)

I'm not going to say it, like a child.

But I'll try explain the 'I told you so' like before in my other responses.

The cooler will be what's restricted your torque, the most, because of the pressure drop across it.
As before, flow is a major. 
Temperatures are one thing, which obviously an intercooler should do, to drop temps but it's all about flow.
Best flowing everything, brings in the best numbers, it really is that simple.

However, the difference in dyno alone can change figures pretty drastically.
Depends what dyno it is and who set it up.
So really without you going to MRC's dyno, figures could be pretty different from one another anyways.
You'll probably find also, if you took it to another tuner, they may have ways to 'improve' your peak figures.

But peak figures don't explain it all, you want as much area underneath your 2 graph lines as possible. Peak figures helps a quick explanation of what the car made - like everyone says, pub talk.
Using the graph and running times on the dragy will show you what your car actually is


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## Ewi1982 (Nov 12, 2020)

Barr_end said:


> I'm not going to say it, like a child.
> 
> But I'll try explain the 'I told you so' like before in my other responses.
> 
> ...


Ok. So i just tested the car's performance for the first time after mods/tune. (since weather didnt permit recently.) Boy oh boy is she pushing! Extremely happy with the outcome! 0-60mph in 3.58s. What 0 to 60 times do you clock with your tuned RS's? (qooqiiu, and French)

Wasnt expecting such an increase tbh but onviously the more the merrier!! ))) She pulls and feels much quicker and can really challenge some top-end sportscars out there!

The only disappointment are the bloody brake pads!! Fitted them about 100miles ago. Worked fine on stock, but today (first time used after being tuned), i literally had ppl hooting at me as i parked as they were smoking badly!! Ppl thought the car was catching on fire looool.....The amount of brake fade after just a 15minute drive was an utter let down!! (EBC-yellow stuff).

Next in line would be the ferrodo..The disks feel slightly warped too so might need to up those too. Any suggestions for good performing disks??


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## Barr_end (Oct 19, 2016)

Ewi1982 said:


> Ok. So i just tested the car's performance for the first time after mods/tune. (since weather didnt permit recently.) Boy oh boy is she pushing! Extremely happy with the outcome! 0-60mph in 3.58s. What 0 to 60 times do you clock with your tuned RS's? (qooqiiu, and French)
> 
> Wasnt expecting such an increase tbh but onviously the more the merrier!! ))) She pulls and feels much quicker and can really challenge some top-end sportscars out there!
> 
> ...


Figures show it much better than the dyno, you've seen an increase
100-200kmph will give you a better gauge of how fast the car is as a comparison to others.
There is too many variables for the launch for proper comparison, where as at speed, especially on DSG where you dont have the shift of the driver too, it's just down to capability of the car, not grip, weather (unless its silly wet) & ect.

On the back of pads. I don't personally rate EBC, but I would say that other than the wooden cold pedal feel.
They should be able to handle fast road conditions.
You say you fitted them 100 miles ago... Did you actually bed them in?
Sounds like they haven't been and some of what you've been doing has started to bed them in.


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## EBC Brakes UK (Jan 26, 2021)

Ewi1982 said:


> Barr_end said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not going to say it, like a child.
> ...


Hi, We would like to gather more feedback about your experience and find out if there is a way we can improve your opinion of our products, drop me an email at [email protected] and let's see what's possible. EBC Brakes


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