# XC90 vs Touareg vs RRS vs What Else?



## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

Decided I have a need which can only be filled with a largeish 4x4. Needs a boot big enough to put a properly built "box" in it, which in turn must be big enough for my 2 dogs (Why? They're safer like that, and best kept off the upholstery)

eg http://www.dogtrailers.co.uk/boxes.html

I'm not bothered Diesel or Petrol, as I'm used to S4 running costs, and this won't be a huge mile muncher.

Want a "Premium" interior spec - good Sat Nav, good ICE, ability to add a DVD setup for rear seats (and front Sat Nav if poss) to make it a good "family" car.

Don't want a people carrier (image isn't me) and don't necessarily need the sportiest model in the line-up, as my other impending purchase should hopefully take care of those needs... :wink:

So, any real-life experiences / suggestions? Is the boot of the R400h comparable to these?


----------



## Gizmo750 (Sep 16, 2004)

What about either the new Discovery (drove one for the day recently and was very pleasantly surprised at what a nice place to be and nice vehicle to drive it is) or for the more upmarket image a Range Rover Sport?

Both "proper" 4x4 vehicles.


----------



## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

Gizmo750 said:


> What about either the new Discovery (drove one for the day recently and was very pleasantly surprised at what a nice place to be and nice vehicle to drive it is) or for the more upmarket image a Range Rover Sport?
> 
> Both "proper" 4x4 vehicles.


RRS is in the list in the title already... but I'd want the HSE spec and it starts to get expensive. I think the very high residuals are about to take a pounding with the introduction of the V8 diesel (which is too expensive for me in HSE trim) so its not a good time to buy a new V6 diesel, and not YET a good time to pick up a used one... 

"We" didn't like the Disco III - for similar price to the RRS, it wasn't a patch in terms of look or feel, outside or in. I see where its aimed, but its not quite right.


----------



## steveh (Jan 14, 2004)

How about a V10 TDi Touareg. Loads of performance, loads of toys, not bad economy (I know this doesn't bother you that much but personally I would rather spend more time on the road than in Petrol stations). The Sat Nav isn't bad and the ICE is ok. We've got a DVD setup in the back of our Touareg and there seem to be quite a few Touaregs out there with this setup. The interior, IMO, is a nice place to be. And, on top of all that, it handles pretty well.


----------



## NaughTTy (Jul 9, 2003)

Q7?


----------



## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

NaughTTy said:


> Q7?


Surprisingly small boot, I think...

The transverse engine int he XC90 gives a HUGE boot.

Besides, the Q7 looks too much like the MKII TT


----------



## R6B TT (Feb 25, 2003)

Honda CRV

Not a Planet Killer but very practical


----------



## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

R6B TT said:


> Honda CRV
> 
> Not a Planet Killer but very practical


Again, I don't think its as big as the others in my list.

I'll take a look - but does it fulfil the "premium" interior category?

I like the Murano, but the boot is too small.


----------



## Carlos (May 6, 2002)

jampott said:


> NaughTTy said:
> 
> 
> > Q7?
> ...


Are you sure? Looks pretty big to me (the seat on the right is in the 3rd row)


----------



## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

Carlos said:


> jampott said:
> 
> 
> > NaughTTy said:
> ...


Maybe I should stick it on the list to view then... but I prefer the looks of the Volvo and fear the Q7 will be more expensive for similar kit, and with no positive benefits in the residual stakes...


----------



## R6B TT (Feb 25, 2003)

jampott said:


> R6B TT said:
> 
> 
> > Honda CRV
> ...


I've got the 'Exec' - leather, satnav etc. Seats etc are fine, the plastics aren't up to Audi quality, and I've added the wood option which makes it a bit nicer. The only problem I had with the car in the first 3 years was an electric window motor burning out, replaced under warranty.

Another option (as recommended by Gordon Murray) is the Renault Kangoo Trekka, which he says has more loadspace than a Disco! I doubt it would meet your 'premium interior' spec though.


----------



## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

R6B TT said:


> jampott said:
> 
> 
> > R6B TT said:
> ...


Is the boot space big enough for a 38"x36"x28" doggie box in your Exec?


----------



## garyc (May 7, 2002)

Are you moving into drug dealing?

I don't do SUVs. But you'd have to put the new X5 on there along with RR etc.

If I had to, it'd be a V10 tourag blinged up. Â£30k gets you something that another dealer or footballer has taken hit on.

For the Â£50-60K new you will spend on new 4*4, i'd go for instead:

V10 S6 Avant (save the engine for the R8 after...)
550i/535d M sport touring
E55 AMG estate

All of which have just as much load space if not more than the SUVs - and will be that much more subtle, whilst still offering bling factor.

They wont offer that superior high up thing that might appeal. But neither will everyone else on the road hate you on site either. Well. maybe with the BM, but I know you wouldn't entertain one of those anyway.

Just for laughs...


----------



## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

garyc said:


> Are you moving into drug dealing?
> 
> I don't do SUVs. But you'd have to put the new X5 on there along with RR etc.
> 
> ...


Nah, I'm not moving into drug dealing, else I'd just plump for the ubiquitous M3... :lol:

I just think a premium 4x4 offers the "dos dedos" to the establishment that I always like to give... but also offers the space and luxury that I'm looking for.

I've "done" the (fast) estate, and the S4 just doesn't give the interior space that I want next... but I see where you are coming from. I just figure an estate is a good "compromise" - lower centre of gravity and tighter handling vs a 4x4, but I'm not really going to need those characteristics. I think the R8 provides them in spades.

In particular, its the "height" of the rear compartment / boot. To fit the doggies in a box *comfortably* they need as much height as the S4 currently has - but a box that fitted in that space wouldn't give the same amount of height (if that makes sense) because it has to be smaller (and narrower) to fit through the tailgate. 2 dalmations do take up the entire boot.

Maybe a V70 / A6 equivalent would give me that bit more height, depth and width to do what I want - but ultimately I'd still end up in an estate car, and I'm not sure that's what I want.

I don't mind the X5 (done properly) - at least its the least obnoxious (to me) of all the current BMW range - but I just know the interior will be dire and I'm not convinced. Sure, it'd be a good option, but I certainly prefer the looks and the relative rarity of the Touareg, or the XC90.

It is a tricky one... I do want the premium spec interior, the Sat Nav, the ICE, the fridge, the toys basically... and in some ways that's more important than the exact model. Plan is for both Lisa and I to have our own "fun" car for when there's only us in the car (Lisa for work, me for commuting etc) and if there's only the 2 of us, we can take either of those cars too - but for times the 4 of us go out, or 3 of us, or the dogs or whatever, I want something suitable. If it was to do hundreds of motorway miles, it'd be another estate car - no question - but it'll just be to do exactly the sort of things a 4x4 is good for... :roll: :lol:


----------



## slg (May 6, 2005)

Tim

John C wrote a couple of reviews on the RX400h:

http://www.lexusownersclub.co.uk/forum/ ... =23783&hl=

http://www.lexusownersclub.co.uk/forum/ ... =23430&hl=

Looks to get a great write up from him.


----------



## shao_khan (May 7, 2002)

We've been looking at these. For the Touareg - give a call to VW uk customer services - they have a variety of these available to potential customers for long term test, it gives you say 48hrs to see what you think.

We have been going through the motions a tthe moment and TBH the best all round package we tried was the RRsport, good image, good ride, the supercharged we had loan of had very good performance, economy was pretty poor - for our 48hrs we averaged 17mpg. If you go used and find a good ist edition then they pretty much have everything inc Brembo brake upgrades, etc,etc. For day to day use though the car was great and I'd highly recommend.

The Cayenne S is good value second hand as they seem to lose a bucket load of cash. Cayenne drive is good and probably the 'sportiest' of any of these type of cars we have driven.

HAvent tried the Volvo as cant find any dealer / volvo uk prepared to offer us a long term test drive.

Touareg isnt a bad package if you ge the right spec, but it soon gets expensive and my main concern was that when speaking to my local dealership - they had no exec cars available for customers because they had so many Touaregs off the road long term issues  I am not sure if this is indicative or just a lot of bad luck for folks when I was in there.

Problem we have now is though that having decided this is what we were going to get - they have just been taken off my o/hs co car list in a 'green' purge


----------



## BreTT (Oct 30, 2002)

garyc said:


> They wont offer that superior high up thing that might appeal.


...and you won't have twice the likelyhood of overturning...

For me, 3.0 V6 TDI Toureg spec'd up is a far better vehicle than the V10 but you won't surprise anyone at the lights in it. If you want to be completely obnoxious, the Cayenne is the way to go


----------



## Carlos (May 6, 2002)

jampott said:


> Maybe I should stick it on the list to view then... but I prefer the looks of the Volvo and fear the Q7 will be more expensive for similar kit, and with no positive benefits in the residual stakes...


To clarify, I'm not recommending the Q7. I detest that car. I just think it probably does have a big boot given that its a 7 seater.

I'd look at the Touareg personally, but I have no real experience of any of these bar sitting in them.


----------



## Kell (May 28, 2002)

Tim - have you considered new/old allroad? The older one looks a little bigger than the new, but that may be due to the sloping rear.

The Q7 (as Paul mentioned) has three rows of seats (as do some XC90s I think) so when the third row is folded down there'd be acres of space. I don't know the dimensions, but it looks markedly bigger than any of the others you mentioned, so I'd be very surprised if there wasn't room for your box.

Gary mentioned the Cayenne - also one I'd consider as it's only millimetres smaller than the Toerag  I only know this as we had an argument at work the other day and someone reckoned the Toerag was much bigger than the Cayenne, it isn't. Mind you, the Cayenne is fugly.

Personally, I'd be amazed if there was enough space in the back of the VW as the ones we've looked at would appear to have less space than our (and therefore your) A/S 4. It's taller, but looks much shorter.

I like the XC90 and, depending on your requirements of new V old, they're under 20k now and old Clarkson (Jeremy, not Paul) voted for them above all others and even owned one.

Have you thought about an old school defender?


----------



## thejepster (Mar 29, 2005)

Shame the Disco 3 is off the list, as it's a very good car... How about a Toyota LandCruiser or Amazon - they are *big*, and the top spec, LC5 has all the toys, the only extra is a DVD ICE for ~Â£2,500 on the LandCruiser, and standard on the Amazon from last year...


----------



## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

Kell said:


> Tim - have you considered new/old allroad? The older one looks a little bigger than the new, but that may be due to the sloping rear.
> 
> The Q7 (as Paul mentioned) has three rows of seats (as do some XC90s I think) so when the third row is folded down there'd be acres of space. I don't know the dimensions, but it looks markedly bigger than any of the others you mentioned, so I'd be very surprised if there wasn't room for your box.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't mind the Cayenne, but didn't think it was good value for money. Of course it may well be, if I look at 2nd hand values...

I read Jeremy's review of the XC90 - does sound like exactly what I'm after, but still very interested to hear opinions.

Would quite like the idea of the R400h, but still not worked out the boot size yet.


----------



## Kell (May 28, 2002)

jampott said:


> I wouldn't mind the Cayenne, but didn't think it was good value for money. Of course it may well be, if I look at 2nd hand values...
> 
> I read Jeremy's review of the XC90 - does sound like exactly what I'm after, but still very interested to hear opinions.
> 
> Would quite like the idea of the R400h, but still not worked out the boot size yet.


Bottom of the range Cayenne (with the VAG 3.2 V6) is cheaper than top of the range Tourag. 35k ish IIRC.


----------



## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

Kell said:


> jampott said:
> 
> 
> > I wouldn't mind the Cayenne, but didn't think it was good value for money. Of course it may well be, if I look at 2nd hand values...
> ...


Cool. 

Haven't looked hard at the allroad... I can't get away from the fact that its a jacked-up A6 - I don't think it offers much over the estate car it is based on. Or does it?


----------



## TTwiggy (Jul 20, 2004)

jampott said:


> Kell said:
> 
> 
> > jampott said:
> ...


you are aware that the Cayenne is Porsche yeah?... :wink:


----------



## raven (May 7, 2002)

Cayenne non-S is S L O W. And it drinks petrol. Nice car if those two don't bother you.


----------



## Kell (May 28, 2002)

jampott said:


> Haven't looked hard at the allroad... I can't get away from the fact that its a jacked-up A6 - I don't think it offers much over the estate car it is based on. Or does it?


It doesn't offer any benefits in terms of interior space, but it does offer a little of the 4x4 stance without vastly comprimising handling.

The 2.7T can be remapped in the same way the the old B5 RS4 (S4) and the 4.2 litre engine will be all too familiar to you.

Having looked at lots of other options for us, I think the allroad (old one) will probably replace the A4 when the time comes. But then we don't have dogs.

My Uncle managed with a Xantia Estate and his two wolfhounds for a while (and they were big even for Wolfhounds), but relented and ended up with a Citroen C8. Absolutely ideal for the purpose, but hardly sexy or premium.


----------



## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

RRS
Q7
Toureg

In that order. The XC90 is OK but it's a Volvo FFS (in fact, may be right up your street :lol: )


----------



## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

TTwiggy said:


> jampott said:
> 
> 
> > Kell said:
> ...


I keep forgetting that


----------



## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

W7 PMC said:


> RRS
> Q7
> Toureg
> 
> In that order. The XC90 is OK but it's a Volvo FFS (in fact, may be right up your street :lol: )


Thing is, the RRS is going to be quite expensive to buy for a car that won't be the first set of keys I reach for...

The Q7... its hard to get over the styling of that one, and it really is MONSTER big to look at.

The Touareg doesn't look nice on the inside and is quite poorly specced unless you get the V10 TDi.

I actually think the XC90 looks almost as nice as the RRS - certainly a better looker than the Q7 and Touareg - and definately better specced than either of them.

The Cayenne is a strange one. I'd plump for the S, and they're actually coming in at reasonable money (!) for a car with a bit of spec, so I haven't entirely ruled it out... :roll: :lol:

Like I said, this is really going to be a family / 2nd car - and I won't give much of a damn about it to be honest - but I know I have to shell out a certain amount to get the spec level and relative "newness" that I'm looking for.

As Lisa and I aim to have our own "individual" cars, it doesn't have to be a substitute and tick every box for the sort of driving that I / we enjoy. Just has to do the job it is asked to do, in some degree of comfort.

Perhaps a larger estate car DOES make sense... ho hum.


----------



## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

Although even Gary Barlow's Cayenne is cheap 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/2003-03-Porsche-C ... 0087965999

God. Imagine how cool it'd be to own an ex-Take That member's car?

Not very... :lol:


----------



## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

jampott said:


> W7 PMC said:
> 
> 
> > RRS
> ...


I really have warmed to the look of the Q7 & it's a consideration for Judiths car in about 12-18mths when used values have fallen by enough. The RRS to me looks bigger than the Q7 but has that whole East End Drug Dealer, Chelsea set & WAGS feel/look to it, although again i do like them. The Pork is a good option & values are tumbling, however running costs could be a tad on the high side for a 2nd car & i feel prices will tumble further.

Not really a market i know well so can only comment on my personal views & what i've heard but if it was my money i'd say either RRS or Q7 would be the ones i'd choose between. I'd also look at ex-demo to get the highest spec for the lowest price, whilst still being fairly new, but that all depends on your budget.


----------



## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

W7 PMC said:


> jampott said:
> 
> 
> > W7 PMC said:
> ...


If run as a 2nd car, the "running costs" are a bit lower I'd imagine. OK, the fixed costs of insurance etc won't change much, but fuel and wear'n'tear (tyres etc) won't be so bad. Depreciation still a killer, but that's why I'm looking to buy something that has either depreciated a bit already, or has "best-in-class" depreciation figures.

A 1.5yr old Cayenne is actually looking like tempting value at the moment - they've taken a big hit from new, and depreciation should slow down a little from here, provided it remains well looked after, serviced and isn't shagged around too much.

A Cayenne though? God help me... :lol:

I am, however, moving to the countryside (well, sort of) so at least I have a bit of an excuse. Fuck the CO2...


----------



## garyc (May 7, 2002)

jampott said:


> Although even Gary Barlow's Cayenne is cheap
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/2003-03-Porsche-C ... 0087965999
> 
> ...


STOP THIS NOW TIM.


----------



## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

garyc said:


> jampott said:
> 
> 
> > Although even Gary Barlow's Cayenne is cheap
> ...


I'm scaring myself.


----------



## jbell (May 15, 2006)

I recently went on a Land Rover Driving course in a RRS HSE and was suprised by the car, it's superb and with the V8 Diesel will amaze.

A friend has a 2.5 TDi Toureg with loads of options inc nav, cricket leather etc, it's a great car although a bit slow but the interior is good quality. He paid Â£27k for it 14 months old with 12k on, the original receipt was still in it for Â£37k. they make a good year old prospect. The V10's are dropping fast as well. Personally I would go for a 3.0 TDi Altitude at 12 months old.

The Lexus RX400h is a great car and you just know it won't go wrong and they are loaded in SE-L guise and the dealers are superb.

The Porsche is just plain fugly but there are loads around to choose from and dealers have around Â£5-7k in each one so there is room to negotiate.

Why not get a 2-3 year old Range Rover HSE or Vogue, they have dropped by at least half and will level out now, so long as they are maintained they make a good proposition.


----------



## garyc (May 7, 2002)

The Volvo is a huge tank with all the benefits of Ford componentry.
RRS too footballer. Better off with an RR Vogue supercharged that has depreciated.
Cayenne is a Porsche. Not your style or brand.
Friends have a Toureg tdi - it's OK but not that special. 
X5 is attracted to BMW types, but the new one apparently drives better than the old one esp with the pokey derv unit.

An Allroad ticks the brand and interior plus load capacity boxes - although they are a bit 'silly county'.

And you can't get an S6 V10 Avant, cos the R8 probably wont feel any quicker... :wink:

Mondeo Estate. You know it's right.


----------



## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

Tim,

I was just going to suggest an X5 as an alternative. This again is a soft roader that i've always liked & truth be known it is seen as the benchmark in this market. The 3.0 petrol is plenty quick enough & will return fair MPG & some used examples fully loaded are now going for silly money. Again it's on my possibles list for Judith next year.

Also the 3.0d with a nice re-map is bound to be good fun & even more economical.


----------



## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

W7 PMC said:


> Tim,
> 
> I was just going to suggest an X5 as an alternative. This again is a soft roader that i've always liked & truth be known it is seen as the benchmark in this market. The 3.0 petrol is plenty quick enough & will return fair MPG & some used examples fully loaded are now going for silly money. Again it's on my possibles list for Judith next year.
> 
> Also the 3.0d with a nice re-map is bound to be good fun & even more economical.


I know its fallen quite cheaply now, and that'll hit harder when the new one comes out, but I'd rather be a scouser than drive a BMW. 

Gary said that Porsche isn't my brand. He's probably right, but the Cayenne sort of transcends the Porsche image somewhat. It is as universally hated as the 911 is lauded. The X5, however... well it *is* the least odious of the BMW range, but its still way down on my list, unless it offers EXCEPTIONAL value vs the competition. Lisa doesn't like them either, and as its planned to be "her" car for a bit (until we end up with 3 cars) it needs to suit us both... BMW definately isn't my brand, and technically I work for them. :roll:


----------



## IanWest (May 7, 2002)

Don't do the Cayenne- we had an S for 18 months and it was nothing but trouble.

Nothing was covered on the warranty and lots went wrong with it, it went through tyres every 6,000 miles and then did about 11mpg.

Having said that it did go like poop off a shovel and was very very comfortable to drive.

Trouble is I just used to worry each time I turned the key whether the lights or the Sat Nav would work.

My Dad has just got a Toerag 3.0 TDI and whilst the interior is not as good as the Porsche, it is still a great car. His was fully specced and he got 12% off list. They were also reduced in price last year by about 10% so represent excellent value.


----------



## jonah (Aug 17, 2002)

Supprised no ones mentioned the Toyota Land Cruiser :? probably the best 4x4 next to the RR. 
I take it a crew cab is out of the question ? a nice black Dodge looks the nutts IMO


----------



## R6B TT (Feb 25, 2003)

How about a '24' Nissan Pathfinder ?

Or one of the landcruisers

Or one of these .....

http://www.overfinch.co.uk/?node_id=1.3.3&vehicle_id=35


----------



## paulb (May 6, 2002)

Have you thought about doing it on the cheap? A nice classic Landy - maybe ex military?


----------



## jdn (Aug 26, 2002)

:lol:


----------



## Guest (Feb 21, 2007)

garyc said:


> Are you moving into drug dealing?
> 
> Hummer? :lol:


----------



## garyc (May 7, 2002)

Should fit the bill.


----------



## Hipflyguy (Jun 1, 2006)

We've got a V8 Touareg with lots of toys, easy to pick up a treg with a good spec, I'd just try and steer away from the 2.5, too slow in my opinion, from standstill at least.

We've got a flat coat retriever and westie who have acres of room in the boot, and a very handy opening rear window.

Interior is excellent in my opinion, going from the TT to the Treg is like a different world, makes me drive like Miss Daisy tho, even with the V8 under me, but when you need the power it knocks my socks off. If only my TT sounded like that. Great handling too... But then like SteeveH and Jog, I'm a little biased...


----------



## ag (Sep 12, 2002)

I feel your pain. I actually hate 4x4s with a vengence and cannot see the point in most cases. They are slow, thirsty, pollute and are too big around town. They also don't handle as well as a "normal" estate and don't actually give you that much space.

BUT. I love the Disco III. I like the shape and the space. I also like the current residuals. A new base model can easily be had for Â£25.5k. Try finding a 2 year old one for much less than Â£20k. Difficult. That represents a pretty good buy new. In reality residuals will soften as more become available but anyone who bought one two years ago (And hasn't had too many problems) should be a happy bunny.


----------



## J 22S DS (Aug 17, 2004)

We picked up a RR vogue a couple of months back and Im very impressed. They are definately worth a look. Bought it used so hopefully the depreciation will be slowing down now. The spec is awesome - im still not sure what some of the buttons do now  
The previous owner had the twin headrest screens with DVD player and Playstaion installed so its got all the toys to keep the little one entertained! There were plenty advertised with impressive ICE installed.
More than enough room for the dog in the boot and I suppose the only downside is the V8 is a bit thirsty (like you would expect anything else), but as you say your used to the S4 at the pumps.

Looked at the X5 and the Cayenne aswell but wasn't that impressed. Also with the new shapes coming out the prices are going to take a big hit.


----------



## ag (Sep 12, 2002)

The main advantage of an X5 over a normal estate is the back seat is a bench and can therefore take 3 people. The boot is small though, no bigger than the S4 in real terms although perhaps a more useable shape.

A cage would probably fit in the X5, it ain't never gonna go in an S4. I tried to get one for our A4 Avant. The boot looks ok, but at ceiling level it is only about 40cm deep!


----------



## thejepster (Mar 29, 2005)

jonah said:


> Supprised no ones mentioned the Toyota Land Cruiser :? probably the best 4x4 next to the RR. IMO


:wink:



thejepster said:


> Shame the Disco 3 is off the list, as it's a very good car... How about a Toyota LandCruiser or Amazon - they are *big*, and the top spec, LC5 has all the toys, the only extra is a DVD ICE for ~Â£2,500 on the LandCruiser, and standard on the Amazon from last year...


Suggestion was completely ignored mind! :roll: :wink:


----------



## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

ag said:


> The main advantage of an X5 over a normal estate is the back seat is a bench and can therefore take 3 people. The boot is small though, no bigger than the S4 in real terms although perhaps a more useable shape.
> 
> A cage would probably fit in the X5, it ain't never gonna go in an S4. I tried to get one for our A4 Avant. The boot looks ok, but at ceiling level it is only about 40cm deep!


The "dog trailers" website I linked to do a box for the A4 / S4, and its surprisingly close in dimensions to some of the other boxes - but it lacks in the crucial areas of width and (especially) height to accommodate the smaller hatch opening. 

For 1 dog it'd be fine, but for 2, over a longer trip (mine do 3hrs in the car on a bad day) they need the space to turn around and get comfortable.


----------



## jam (May 8, 2002)

jampott said:


> W7 PMC said:
> 
> 
> > jampott said:
> ...


Watch it mate - next thing you know you'll be selling the R8 slot and getting yourself a 997!!  :wink:


----------



## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

jam said:


> jampott said:
> 
> 
> > W7 PMC said:
> ...


Erm...

No.


----------

