# So Exactly What did Ron Atkinson Say?



## garyc (May 7, 2002)

The N word?


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## ColDiTT (Sep 6, 2003)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story ... 04,00.html


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## L8_0RGY (Sep 12, 2003)

AND...

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2004182191,00.html

It seems to be more like what didn't he say!!


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## jdn (Aug 26, 2002)

Silly boy.

Almost swore again when interviewed on late news last night, had to bite his tongue to avoid saying 'F****** microphone was left on'.

Also did not help when he said he had done a lot for black players in this country, because he was the first to bring 'them' into this country


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## Wallsendmag (Feb 12, 2004)

Strange I was thinking when I was watching the match(between fits of laughter) then big Ron must be passed his sell by date


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## LerxsTT (Jul 18, 2003)

It's not the first time either - if memory serves - he was carpetted during the 1990 world Cup for saying, about one of the Cameroon players, "looks as if his mother still lives up a tree"

Maybe Kilroy and him both have "orange face" syndrome where too much sunbed UV activates the racism gland in the brain :roll:


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

It does seem that noone is entirely sure exactly what was said... but concensus of opinion seems to suggest something along the lines of:

"He's what is known in some schools as a f-cking lazy thick ******."

I'm not going to defend "racism" and race hatred. But the fact remains that this comment wasn't (IMHO) "racist"...

Without the "N" word, this would be a simple blooper - the same as appears on TV's Naughtiest Blunders. I'm no Chelski fan, but I shared Ron's frustration at the result and the overall display. The team looked like the final 30 minutes of some recent England matches. Disjointed and with no real clue, ending up with panic and chasing the ball... I think some criticism of both the manager and players was deserved, and I'm sure many Englishmen (and Chelski supporters) were quietly (or otherwise) swearing into their pints...

Racism is all about context. How else can someone suggest that the "N" word alone is racist, when its is difficult to name one black rapper who doesn't pepper most of his lyrics with it. Obviously its OK for the black community to refer to itself as "n1ggers" - it must be, as noone is accusing Ice T of being racist are they?

Ron made his comments pretty much in the third person. He is also quite right. A lot of people probably DO think that Marcel is a f-cking thick ******.

Sorry, once again this is PC gone mad. Ron did the weak thing by resigning - although it was probably the only thing he COULD do under the circumstances.


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## Dogmatic6 (May 7, 2002)

here here

I agree with jampott.............


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## LerxsTT (Jul 18, 2003)

I know what you're saying Jampott - but taking into account his earlier outburst in 1990, it does kind of point to a questionable attitude towards black people. I don't see this as PC gone mad (which is one of my pet hates) - I think that calling someone a n!gger in the context that he did is racist pure and simple. Why bother with the word in the first place? :?


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

LerxsTT said:


> I know what you're saying Jampott - but taking into account his earlier outburst in 1990, it does kind of point to a questionable attitude towards black people. I don't see this as PC gone mad (which is one of my pet hates) - I think that calling someone a n!gger in the context that he did is racist pure and simple. Why bother with the word in the first place? :?


Hmmmm.... perhaps a semantic argument, but....

Telling a black person to "f-ck off" (without using ANY race words) *could* be construed as racist (even though it might not be) yet saying to a black friend (and maybe being overheard by a third party) "alright *****?" (as a friendly greeting - and yes, something I have myself overheard) would be MORE likely to be construed as racist!!

Why bother with the word in the first place? Why bother with swearing? That is a bit taboo as well. I daresay that when Big Ron was a lad, it was part of everyone's normal vocabularly. AFAIK, it is one of those words that has become outlawed (like the word "black" itself, or golliwog) due to shifting demographics and perceived usage patterns. As I've already said, it is a word used seemingly extensively by (some parts of) the black community itself. So you cannot tell me the word itself is offensive.

Is it reverse racism to only allow people of 1 colour to say "******"?

Going off topic slightly, I think there is / was a brand of clothing launched called "Paki"... and launched by someone of indian-subcontinental origin!!


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## LerxsTT (Jul 18, 2003)

I'm not trying to argue that "n!gger" (or any word) is inherently racist - as I said, the _ context _ that he used it in, in my opinion, is. Why put an epithet on referring to someone's colour - he wouldn't have said John Terry is a "big white lazy b*stard" would he? Do you think his previous comment about someone's mother living up a tree is racist?


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

LerxsTT said:


> I'm not trying to argue that "n!gger" (or any word) is inherently racist - as I said, the _ context _ that he used it in, in my opinion, is. Why put an epithet on referring to someone's colour - he wouldn't have said John Terry is a "big white lazy b*stard" would he? Do you think his previous comment about someone's mother living up a tree is racist?


Big Ron is a harmless dinosaur. Comedians make far more "racist" jokes which people still laugh at.

Society is diverse. People are different.

Talking of epithets, why do black people have their own music awards. They use the word "black" to describe them. Why? They are drawing attention to the fact that their skin is a different colour to (for instance) mine...

He wouldn't have refered to John Terry as "white" because that wouldn't be pointing out a "difference"... but he might have referred to XYZ as a scouser, etc etc etc.


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## r1 (Oct 31, 2002)

jampott said:


> It does seem that noone is entirely sure exactly what was said... but concensus of opinion seems to suggest something along the lines of:
> 
> "He's what is known in some schools as a fucking lazy thick ******."
> 
> I'm not going to defend "racism" and race hatred. But the fact remains that this comment wasn't (IMHO) "racist"...


I don't think you'd know racism if it jumped up behind you and threw a banana at your head Jampott.

Comparing Rons outburst with gangsta rappers slang is utterly irrelevant. The majority of the population wouldn't know (or care!) that rappers call each other ***** BUT they would know that the word 'n!gger' itself is taboo. It has wretched connotations of slaves and Clan abuse and is thankfully no longer used by the non-racist masses. He obviously is racist and even if he's not he should have resigned for being so pig-ignorant to what is acceptable in modern society.

I bet he wouldn't have said it had he been sitting next to Sir Trevor Mcdonald, what do you think?


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## Dubcat (Jun 10, 2002)

r1 said:


> jampott said:
> 
> 
> > It does seem that noone is entirely sure exactly what was said... but concensus of opinion seems to suggest something along the lines of:
> ...


R1 you wrote what I was thinking so well I actually deleted my post!

So, my contribution is.. well.. what R1 said basically 

Dubcat


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## L8_0RGY (Sep 12, 2003)

LerxsTT said:


> It's not the first time either - if memory serves - he was carpetted during the 1990 world Cup for saying, about one of the Cameroon players, "looks as if his mother still lives up a tree"
> 
> Maybe Kilroy and him both have "orange face" syndrome where too much sunbed UV activates the racism gland in the brain :roll:


Ooh dear!!

Poor Ron.


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

r1 said:


> jampott said:
> 
> 
> > It does seem that noone is entirely sure exactly what was said... but concensus of opinion seems to suggest something along the lines of:
> ...


I don't think the comparison IS irrelevant. That is entirely my point. It is a word that (some) black people use to describe themselves. Whether this is born out of irony, self-abuse or shock value, I have no idea. But it is a word that is in everyday use, WITHOUT RACIAL CONNOTATIONS by a portion of society.

Society has many "taboo" words. Many of todays (even mainstream) comedians use them. Their material is still laughed at. As far as I know, the comics don't check their audience for black people, gays, people with disabilities, feminists etc before performing. So not everyone DOES adapt their language, their humour or their style according to context.

The only person with a right to be offended by that comment is Marcel himself...


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

I also think Kilroy was wrong to be slated as well (and said so at the time)

Just out of interest, what word(s) CAN people use to describe "black" people without causing ANYONE any offence at all....

I hestitate to use the word "black", as I know it was outlawed at school. Even things like "baa baa black sheep" are now unacceptable, and so is a blackboard, having a black mark against your name, and the list probably goes on. As such, the word "black" must be offensive, else they wouldn't be changing things...

"Coloured" is silly...

The police term is possibly "IC-three" (if my knowledge of The Bill is correct" but noone would understand that....


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

Black people are calling each other "my ******" and it just a form of saying hello. But what about white people...do we have any "cool" way of saying hello?


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

vlastan said:


> Black people are calling each other "my black person" and it just a form of saying hello. But what about white people...do we have any "cool" way of saying hello?


alright honky?


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

:lol:

I forgot that the forum changes the word. So even the writters of this application think that it is discriminative language. Maybe they were black.


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

vlastan said:


> :lol:
> 
> I forgot that the forum changes the word. So even the writters of this application think that it is discriminative language. Maybe they were black.


Going off topic here, but there is a long list of banned words when YaBB is installed (I think)...

To cut down on censorship, all but two of the words were removed. The remaining ones... well, one is the word you had replaced. The other is needed to spell the northern town Scunthorpe.

They also added a variation (the correct spelling) of Supachips to prevent any legal problems when they were getting a slagging off.....


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## bilbos (Jan 16, 2004)

I have to agree with R1 on this point. If Ron wanted to be derogatory about Marcel's performance then he could have just called him a "thick lazy b*stard" or whatever without having to use the N word. His use of the word screams to me that if has no problems saying it during a TV transmission then he must use it on a consistent basis in order not to realise he was saying it.

As regards to hip-hop, then I agree that the "N" word is used in proliferation by the most of the artists except one. I am a major fan of Eminem and have never heard this word pass his lips in any of his lyrics which must mean that he also feels no need to use it even in an industry that does not condemn it's use.


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

bilbos said:


> I have to agree with R1 on this point. If Ron wanted to be derogatory about Marcel's performance then he could have just called him a "thick lazy b*stard" or whatever without having to use the N word. His use of the word screams to me that if has no problems saying it during a TV transmission then he must use it on a consistent basis in order not to realise he was saying it.


If the statement didn't include the N word then it could have been unambiguous and not understood correctly, to whom it was directed. By adding the N word the statement was narrowed down to the black individual avoiding confusion by the other other players. :wink:


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## r1 (Oct 31, 2002)

vlastan said:


> bilbos said:
> 
> 
> > I have to agree with R1 on this point. If Ron wanted to be derogatory about Marcel's performance then he could have just called him a "thick lazy b*stard" or whatever without having to use the N word. His use of the word screams to me that if has no problems saying it during a TV transmission then he must use it on a consistent basis in order not to realise he was saying it.
> ...


twat


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

does anyone mind if this thread is moved into the Flame room? Its not a flame as such, but I've been told off for using inappropriate language, and whilst I think this is ridiculous when I was quoting the Guardian in the first place (and they think it is acceptable to use it) I guess it doesn't pay to upset the hitlers that run this forum and want to enjoy their little moment of power....

go on Kev.. move it now


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## r1 (Oct 31, 2002)

jampott said:


> I don't think the comparison IS irrelevant. That is entirely my point. It is a word that (some) black people use to describe themselves. Whether this is born out of irony, self-abuse or shock value, I have no idea. But it is a word that is in everyday use, WITHOUT RACIAL CONNOTATIONS by a portion of society.
> 
> Society has many "taboo" words. Many of todays (even mainstream) comedians use them. Their material is still laughed at. As far as I know, the comics don't check their audience for black people, gays, people with disabilities, feminists etc before performing. So not everyone DOES adapt their language, their humour or their style according to context.
> 
> The only person with a right to be offended by that comment is Marcel himself...


OK, two questions to Jampott.

i) DO you think Ron would have said it in Trevor Mcdonalds presence?

ii) Do you think Marcel would have been offended?

I also think that _anyone_ has the right to be offended by it. If you're mother was in a pub and two blokes were calling each other c.unts, do you think she'd be offended? Mine would despite that fact the comments weren't aimed at her.


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## Lisa. (May 7, 2002)

bilbos said:


> As regards to hip-hop, then I agree that the "N" word is used in proliferation by the most of the artists except one. I am a major fan of Eminem and have never heard this word pass his lips in any of his lyrics which must mean that he also feels no need to use it even in an industry that does not condemn it's use.


Hmmm you are mistaken, Eminem does/has used the word, quiet liberally .....maybe you have the censored versions :wink:


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

r1 said:


> vlastan said:
> 
> 
> > bilbos said:
> ...


Are you talking to me?


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## r1 (Oct 31, 2002)

vlastan said:


> r1 said:
> 
> 
> > vlastan said:
> ...


Yes, well guessed.


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

OK, two questions to Jampott.

i) DO you think Ron would have said it in Trevor Mcdonalds presence?

I have no idea. I don't think it matters that much. I've already said there are MANY instances of people using words they shouldn't, in situations where they shouldn't. I've already said, many comedians, writers, authors etc use language without full knowledge of their intended (or actual) audience. Are you honestly trying to say you've never made an offensive comment in your life?

ii) Do you think Marcel would have been offended?

Put it this way, the rest of the criticism levied in the quote was justified... So put it this way... replace the word "******" with "Frenchman". Is that offensive? 

I also think that _anyone_ has the right to be offended by it. If you're mother was in a pub and two blokes were calling each other c.unts, do you think she'd be offended? Mine would despite that fact the comments weren't aimed at her.

Not actually liking what people say, and taking personal offence about what is being said are 2 different things. Overhearing the word c.unt is entirely different to being called one.


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

r1 said:


> vlastan said:
> 
> 
> > r1 said:
> ...


Likewise! You have my warmest wishes as well.


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## John C (Jul 5, 2002)

jampott said:


> Just out of interest, what word(s) CAN people use to describe "black" people without causing ANYONE any offence at all....
> 
> I hestitate to use the word "black", as I know it was outlawed at school. Even things like "baa baa black sheep" are now unacceptable, and so is a blackboard, having a black mark against your name, and the list probably goes on. As such, the word "black" must be offensive, else they wouldn't be changing things...
> 
> ...


I cannot believe some of the views I an reading here! The logic (in the loosest sense of the word) being used trying to make points is fundamentally flawed and perhaps this previous post is just an indication of why the points are being made.

I am just wondering when someone will come along and say why calling someone a Fu**ing Poof is not homophobic. :roll: :roll:

I just amazes me how we all sometimes mistake activity for progress!


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## nutts (May 8, 2002)

Alot of PC is complete madness and a total waste of time. It panders to the whims of people who have their head stuck up their arse and are trying to sell themselves as better than the rest. Tossers.

Can anyone answer me why the word ****** is actually a derogatory word? I always thought originally it was a derivation of the latin word niger (black). Is the word "Rapist" a banned PC word?... no! Which do you think a black guy would hate most? Being called a Rapist or a ******? :?

So what changed thru history to make it one of (if not THE) most hated words in the Western world?

Oh and Eminem does use the word. The people who buy his records don't seem to mind... or at least are not voting with their wallets after being insulted...


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

nutts said:


> Alot of PC is complete madness and a total waste of time. It panders to the whims of people who have their head stuck up their arse and are trying to sell themselves as better than the rest. Tossers.
> 
> Can anyone answer me why the word ****** is actually a derogatory word? I always thought originally it was a derivation of the latin word niger (black). Is the word "Rapist" a banned PC word?... no! Which do you think a black guy would hate most? Being called a Rapist or a ******? :?
> 
> ...


I agree on the root, Mark... and probably born out from the country of the same name too - Nigeria. Similar to Paki being short for Pakinstani. Its funny that calling someone from Pakistan a Pakistani should not be insulting to them, but using the shortened form is an absolute no-no. Also, calling someone a Pakistani when they are from India is a no-no as well - yet its exactly the same oversimplification of origin which means that we mistakenly refer to kiwis as aussie, canadians as americans, and that most of the rest of the world does when they can't tell a scot from an irishman from an englishman!!

I think these terms have only become "racist" because they were the slang words most used when someone was attempting to be racially offensive. But I hark back to my previous comment. It is just as racially offensive to tell someone of another ethnic origin to "F-ck off" as it is to use any of the so-called "offensive" words...

Many nationalities etc have shortened forms or otherwise "slang" expressions to describe the country. It is funny that some are considered offensive, whilst others aren't... vis

Paki
kraut
frog
****
***
nip
****

etc all seem to be offensive, whereas

kiwi
paddy
jock
aussie
yank
pommie
aussie

don't appear to be.

Serious question. Why is this the case?


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## jonah (Aug 17, 2002)

For people who seem quite well educated I'm quite amased at the reasoning behind alot of your veiws on the reasons why N**ger is or should be an acceptable word. 
Some of you should stand for the BNP Party you'd fit in quite well :?


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

jonah said:


> For people who seem quite well educated I'm quite amased at the reasoning behind alot of your veiws on the reasons why N**ger is or should be an acceptable word.
> Some of you should stand for the BNP Party you'd fit in quite well :?


and that's a slightly blinkered attitude too...

I'm not willing to say the word is entirely acceptable IN TODAY'S SOCIETY. I do question why it isn't, when similar words are. I also question why it is so UTTERLY offensive.

It's not that long since Rising Damp was a popular comedy on mainstream TV. Nowadays, you simply couldn't write a series like that - but in its day, it was popular humour.

My interest lies along the same line as nuTTs - why is society changing SO DAMN MUCH that it has to nanny us like this.

The world is diverse. Black people are different to white people in some ways, and the same in others. I say this without any perception that one is "better" or one is "worse", but they are different. I cannot understand a society that tries to pull the wool over my eyes and tell me they are the same. I'd like to be able to choose words to describe those differences without offending anyone...


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

jacTT225 said:


> I am just wondering when someone will come along and say why calling someone a Fu**ing Poof is not homophobic. :roll: :roll:


It isn't. I just got called that exact phrase by one of my team, because I didn't want to pick up a heavy box. I am positive he was not implying that I like to insert my todger in other blokes rectums, and I am also sure that he didn't want me burned, crucified or incinerated with others like me.
:wink:

My late Gran, before she died, was rueing the demise (or reappropriation) of the word 'Gay' by homos. She thought it was insulting to her generation who were brought up with the original and intended use of the word. I guess the homosexual voice and frail ego now carries more weight than the old folks wishes. :roll: :wink:

Poof is acceptable.


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

Gary...you sound so poofy today.


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## nutts (May 8, 2002)

Rob,

I'm not suggesting I (and Tim probably) wish to ever use the term ******... all I'm questioning is why it became possibly the most despised word in western society. I don't believe I have ever used the word, other than in discussions similar to now and because of it's reputation I never will. I'm neither homophobic nor racist. I have gay friends and black friends. I even have a gay black Muslim friend. I have gay friends that state openly when someone is "queer" or a "poof" and I have black mates (Afro Carib & Pakistani) who openly call Pakistani's, Pakis and Afro-Carib blacks n1ggers. No-one bats an eyelid :?

If a black guy can call another black a Paki or a ****** or a gay bloke can call another gay bloke queer or a poof... why is it so unnacceptable for a white hetrosexual person to say the same?

Where did that rule come from? and why? People take things for granted and never question and ask why? and that is why things are taken (over time) out of context...

The world we live in is a very strange place...



jonah said:


> For people who seem quite well educated I'm quite amased at the reasoning behind alot of your veiws on the reasons why N**ger is or should be an acceptable word.
> Some of you should stand for the BNP Party you'd fit in quite well :?


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## Dotti (Mar 9, 2003)

I'm suprised you lot and 'one inparticular who is doing his usual stint of getting off his high horse' have got all day to type so much utter shit on bloody racism! Get a F'kin life and get ya azz down to London!!!!! That will show you different version of Black!

FFS give it a break :x


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

> I'm not suggesting I (and Tim probably) wish to ever use the term ******... all I'm questioning is why it became possibly the most despised word in western society. I don't believe I have ever used the word, other than in discussions similar to now and because of it's reputation I never will. I'm neither homophobic nor racist. I have gay friends and black friends. I even have a gay black Muslim friend. I have gay friends that state openly when someone is "queer" or a "poof" and I have black mates (Afro Carib & Pakistani) who openly call Pakistani's, Pakis and Afro-Carib blacks n1ggers. No-one bats an eyelid :?
> 
> If a black guy can call another black a Paki or a ****** or a gay bloke can call another gay bloke queer or a poof... why is it so unnacceptable for a white hetrosexual person to say the same?
> 
> ...


Totally, totally agree. And this is unusual for me and nuTTs


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## L8_0RGY (Sep 12, 2003)

jampott said:


> nutts said:
> 
> 
> > Alot of PC is complete madness and a total waste of time. It panders to the whims of people who have their head stuck up their arse and are trying to sell themselves as better than the rest. Tossers.
> ...


Why is the case??

I think it is only because over time people have deemed the first set of words to be rude and the second not.

I can't give a long winded answer on this as i'm not an expert but calling some a n***er is extremely rude if you're white. If you're black it's deemed an everyday expression.

Who cares though.

Ron fucked up. End of.


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

Maybe Ron thought he was black, for a second...


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## r1 (Oct 31, 2002)

Jampott and nutts, educate yourselves: 

http://www.aaregistry.com/african_american_history/2420/Nigger_the_word_a_brief_history


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## Dubcat (Jun 10, 2002)

JampoTT - 'Paki' *is* offensive because it is a word most often used by racist people trying to bash the heads in of Pakistani people, or at the very least trying to insult them and get them to 'go back where they came from' (which doesn't really work when you were born in the UK because actually they want you to go to Pakistan and stop stealing their jobs which they are working so hard to get themselves by being on the dole and living off the taxes I pay).

Even if Paki was ever used as a short form of Pakistani (it would have been before my time because I can not remember anyone using it this way), the meaning of the word has been hijacked by racists. You would be hard pushed to find a single Pakistani person or person with Pakistani roots that didn't find this to be a word with racist connotations. Now, you know this just as well as me. *So if you were to use the word 'Paki', and you know full well that the person hearing that word will take offense and will percieve you as a racist person, and you go ahead and use the word anyway, then of course you ARE a racist person. *

By the way, you commented that calling an Indian a Pakistani is a big no-no (and vice versa). Well, it is a 'mistake' but no worse a mistake then calling an American a Canadian. Anyone who takes it more seriously than that is ignorant and you should not take them to be in the majority.

Dubcat


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## r1 (Oct 31, 2002)

F*cking censors! :roll:

it should end in: n1gger_the_word_a_brief_history


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## LerxsTT (Jul 18, 2003)

nutts said:


> If a black guy can call another black a Paki or a ****** or a gay bloke can call another gay bloke queer or a poof... why is it so unnacceptable for a white hetrosexual person to say the same?


Nutts - there is (well documented) racism between different ethnic minorites as well - that is no better or worse than a white person being guilty of the same - so you're possibly being disingenious there. There is also an element of minorities trying to "reclaim" words so that they lose their offensive nature - ie - "Queer" has been adopted by homosexuals succesfully to the point where it seems not to be offensive to them and the afore-mentioned rappers and "*****".

I'm actually quite suprised that some people are treating this as some sort of Political Correctness issue, which this surely isn't. It's as clear cut as you can get. If the football commentator in question has held his hands up, admitted his mistake and resigned - surely he knows exactly what he had done. This is genuinely the only place that I have read anyone trying to defend the language he used or the context he used it in.


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## r1 (Oct 31, 2002)

LerxsTT said:


> This is genuinely the only place that I have read anyone trying to defend the language he used or the context he used it in.


Ditto.


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## nutts (May 8, 2002)

R1, I understand all that and have hinted at some of it previously... but my discussion is centred around why is it acceptable for a black guy to call another black guy a ******?

... especially when nursery rhymes such as a "baa baa black sheep" are now banned :-/

Double standards.

Oh and Ron is a thick tw*t for either making a mistake on TV or saying what he really thought on TV 

Also I lived in Bradford and Leeds for about 25 years and the word Paki is used very frequently. The corner shop, if owned by an indian / Pakistani / Bangladeshi / etc family, is generally known as the "Paki shop". It is not meant in a derogatory sense... it's just used. No-one ever thinks about the origin of the word...



r1 said:


> Jampott and nutts, educate yourselves:
> 
> http://www.aaregistry.com/african_american_history/2420/black person


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

Dubcat said:


> JampoTT - 'Paki' *is* offensive because it is a word most often used by racist people trying to bash the heads in of Pakistani people, or at the very least trying to insult them and get them to 'go back where they came from' (which doesn't really work when you were born in the UK because actually they want you to go to Pakistan and stop stealing their jobs which they are working so hard to get themselves by being on the dole and living off the taxes I pay).
> 
> Even if Paki was ever used as a short form of Pakistani (it would have been before my time because I can not remember anyone using it this way), the meaning of the word has been hijacked by racists. You would be hard pushed to find a single Pakistani person or person with Pakistani roots that didn't find this to be a word with racist connotations. Now, you know this just as well as me. *So if you were to use the word 'Paki', and you know full well that the person hearing that word will take offense and will percieve you as a racist person, and you go ahead and use the word anyway, then of course you ARE a racist person. *
> 
> ...


But the point nuTTs and I are making (and the one you alude to yourself) is that certain words are now SEEMINGLY racist - not because they refer to anything racist (Paki IS a shortened form of Pakistani, surely?) but because they are PERCEIVED to have been used as abuse in the past, and are now symbolic of the abuse itself. Ditto the word "Gay".

The meaning of the word has not been hijacked by anyone. No group of people one day decided to start using the word "Paki" or "******" as a form of "offensive" or derogatory word. Do you think that there was a big meeting of global racists one day, where they decided what words they were going to use? No! History has decided for us, and words which were perhaps at worst "slang" phrases, such as Nip, Paki, ****** are now seen as utterly offensive.

I refer the honourable gentleman to my previous post. There is a range of designer clothing called PAKI - actually I think it is PAK1. But the implication is clear. They have slogans like "BritPAK" etc etc (very FCUK) but all from an asian lad, Abdul Rahim.

Society has the means at its disposal to reverse the way we view certain words...


----------



## Dont I Recognise You (Oct 10, 2003)

Just a question, if I may?

Does anyone actually expect to be changing the opinions of anyone else with their posts in here, or are we all just letting off steam?

Whilst there is every possiblity that I might be convinced that say - (I dunno) - DSG is better than Manual, or BT are not the people to provide me with a broadband connection, I would have thought that all our views on what we consider to be racist and what we think is 'ok' are fairly deep rooted.

I many be wrong tho - anyone been at all swayed by the constructive discussion we have had so far?

PS - I'm with Orgy. Doesn't matter whether 'you' personally think that using the term '******' is offensive or not, lots of people do.
As someone in the media spotlight, do you really think that Ron would have been surprised that his comment was picked up on?
And given the amount of energy just we in here have spent discussing it, how much time and effort would it have taken him to defend his comments? (If indeed he could)

That's kinda the price to pay for being a celeb - everything is in the spotlight.

By saying it infront of anyone (let alone a camera), he cost himself his job. Game over.


----------



## L8_0RGY (Sep 12, 2003)

Don't I Recognise You? said:


> Just a question, if I may?
> 
> Does anyone actually expect to be changing the opinions of anyone else with their posts in here, or are we all just letting off steam?
> 
> ...


Funny that you agree with dirTTy, as i before i had your p.s; i agreed with you 100% on your 1st paragraph.

We have had a few strong minded people (me being one of them) not wanting to give way in an argument in recent threads (the micra one, now this one).

Who really thinks they can change anyones opinion over the internet? If you can, i'm sure you could be earning big bucks (please don't say you don't want to work in america, as this is merely an expression i'm using).

However old we are, or however opinionated we are, people can express their views on here but when it comes to acting as a judge and jury, i think the only people that will be doing that is the Moderators who will only be judging what you are writing in so far as the language and not the content.


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## Dotti (Mar 9, 2003)

Oh lets have a big forum group hug everybody   :-* :wink: ...LOL...


----------



## nutts (May 8, 2002)

I for one, am not trying to change anyones views here... I'm just trying to understand more about why some words or deemed offensive and other aren't and how occasionally PC oversteps the mark and "bans" the use of various genuinely inoffensive words and phrases...

I'm not trying to defend RA for his comments... he said something on live TV that he shouldn't have said (whatever the context).

I find it strange that if a black guy calls me a white b*stard then he is thought of as being racist, but if he calls another black guy a ******, then he isn't :?

If someone uses a word without FULLY understanding it's origins and uses it not in a derogatory way, ie Pakishop or BritPak is it still being racist?


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## L8_0RGY (Sep 12, 2003)

nutts said:


> I find it strange that if a black guy calls me a white b*stard then he is thought of as being racist, but if he calls another black guy a ******, then he isn't :?


I don't think the black...ahem...coloured guy WOULD be labelled as being racist as the word b****** has almost become an everyday word.

Yet, if we called a coloured man, "black bastard", i'm sure we would not only get a broken nose but would be highly racist.


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## nutts (May 8, 2002)

Getting bored now :? anyone got any good pron links?


----------



## Dont I Recognise You (Oct 10, 2003)

nutts said:


> Getting bored now :? anyone got any good pron links?


LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This close enough?


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

nutts said:


> Getting bored now :? anyone got any good pron links?


Just for you Mark...persiankitty.com!  Enjoy the rest of the day. :lol:


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

L8_0RGY said:


> nutts said:
> 
> 
> > I find it strange that if a black guy calls me a white b*stard then he is thought of as being racist, but if he calls another black guy a ******, then he isn't :?
> ...


I'm sorry, are you somehow implying that black people are in some way "harder" than white people?

Racist!!


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## Dubcat (Jun 10, 2002)

when will i learn not to enter in to debates on web forums..

'dont i know you' you make a good point..

cheers,

Dubcat


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## Dotti (Mar 9, 2003)

Shall we sing a song to round it off then  ....'All things bright and beautifffffful......' :lol: :wink:


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

Don't I Recognise You? said:


> Just a question, if I may?
> 
> I many be wrong tho - anyone been at all swayed by the constructive discussion we have had so far?


Well my opinion changed. I think they are all f**king poofs. [smiley=bomb.gif]


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## jgoodman00 (May 6, 2002)

jampott said:


> It does seem that noone is entirely sure exactly what was said... but concensus of opinion seems to suggest something along the lines of:
> 
> "He's what is known in some schools as a f-cking lazy thick ******."
> 
> ...


I agree completely. I think it is a sad state of affairs. Would the same fuss be made if he called David Beckham a chicken-legged white-boy? Not racist in anyway but potentially offensive, & yet if taken in context it is pretty meaningless. An apology for a genuine slip of the toungue should have been acceptable.

Sticks & stones...


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## jonah (Aug 17, 2002)

jgoodman00 said:


> jampott said:
> 
> 
> > It does seem that noone is entirely sure exactly what was said... but concensus of opinion seems to suggest something along the lines of:
> ...


Hardly the same ! and something i would expect from an uneducated person :?


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## jgoodman00 (May 6, 2002)

jonah said:


> jgoodman00 said:
> 
> 
> > jampott said:
> ...


But thats the point. It was a collection of words, not a racist attack. It was a highly offensive comment, & left unchecked could have caused problems, but he made a sincere apology & his historical record shows he is anything but a racist. I think it was an honest mistake, & it is sad that such a big deal is being made of it. A slap on the wrist should have been sufficient.

Although, I dare say he isnt short of a few bob, so probably doesnt need his job in the same way most of us do...


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## r1 (Oct 31, 2002)

I wonder how many of us on here would say ****** as a mere 'slip of the tongue'... I certainly wouldn't. I might say c.unt or something to emphasize that I'm annoyed at the bloke but not ******.

I find most of the comments on this thread truly incredible and it normally takes a bit to shock me.


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## jgoodman00 (May 6, 2002)

r1 said:


> I wonder how many of us on here would say ****** as a mere 'slip of the tongue'... I certainly wouldn't. I might say c.unt or something to emphasize that I'm annoyed at the bloke but not ******.


I dont think I would use it either, but I find the C word equally offensive...


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## r1 (Oct 31, 2002)

Fine, but at least it's universally offensive.


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## jgoodman00 (May 6, 2002)

r1 said:


> Fine, but at least it's universally offensive.


Lol. At least I am consistent.


----------



## garyc (May 7, 2002)

r1 said:


> I wonder how many of us on here would say ****** as a mere 'slip of the tongue'... I certainly wouldn't. I might say c.unt or something to emphasize that I'm annoyed at the bloke but not ******.
> 
> I find most of the comments on this thread truly incredible and it normally takes a bit to shock me.


Are we cruising on the Moral Highground Interstate R1? How very unlike you :wink:

Have a drink. Lighten up. :idea:


----------



## John C (Jul 5, 2002)

r1 said:


> I wonder how many of us on here would say ****** as a mere 'slip of the tongue'... I certainly wouldn't. I might say c.unt or something to emphasize that I'm annoyed at the bloke but not ******.
> 
> I find most of the comments on this thread truly incredible and it normally takes a bit to shock me.


Mmmm, very good point, with you on this one, oh and sorry but say the c word far to often, guess that makes me offensive, but not racist. Well we all have to be something don't we.............

Now Abi - back to that group forum hug! [smiley=mexicanwave.gif]


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

jacTT225 said:


> r1 said:
> 
> 
> > Mmmm, very good point, with you on this one, oh and sorry but say the c word far to often, guess that makes me offensive, but not racist. [smiley=mexicanwave.gif]


That could make you vaginist. :idea:

Is that good?


----------



## nutts (May 8, 2002)

I doubt I've ever used the "N" word (except in the context of discussions), although a few c*nts have been known to pass these lips...



r1 said:


> I wonder how many of us on here would say ****** as a mere 'slip of the tongue'... I certainly wouldn't. I might say c.unt or something to emphasize that I'm annoyed at the bloke but not ******.
> 
> I find most of the comments on this thread truly incredible and it normally takes a bit to shock me.


----------



## Dotti (Mar 9, 2003)

OK guys lets now do a poll on the 'N' word verses the 'C' word ...LOL... :wink: !

As a female, I don't use either but said in the right context the 'C' word wins hands down, even though it is a very strong meaningful word in it's own right in my opinion, and just about 'sums' someone up who I hate so much on this forum also even though I would never say it aloud but would say it under my breath and no I am not going to say who it is either  !!!!!!!!

Fantastic word - now for that forum group hug along with a cnut too if they are still 'hanging' about!


----------



## John C (Jul 5, 2002)

garyc said:


> That could make you vaginist. :idea:
> 
> Is that good?


lol

I could think of worst things to be! However better not think too long don't want to turn from vaginist to procrastinist or drink too many beers and just get pisssst


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## Dotti (Mar 9, 2003)

garyc said:


> jacTT225 said:
> 
> 
> > r1 said:
> ...


Is that a virgin or somesort of cream for an infected sensative area? :lol:  :wink:


----------



## John C (Jul 5, 2002)

^Abi^ said:


> garyc said:
> 
> 
> > jacTT225 said:
> ...


I thought it was the people on the Forum who kept playing with their settings through Vagcom


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## sonicmonkey (Mar 20, 2004)

I canâ€™t believe how oversensitive Iâ€™ve been throughout my 27 years on this planet.

Some of the people posting here are right â€" itâ€™s PC gone mad. The next time Iâ€™m called a Paki B*stard Iâ€™m not going to be
hurt/upset/embarrassed. Iâ€™ll forgive the person and convince myself that Iâ€™ve taken the comment out of context.

Thanks for enlightening me :?


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

sonicmonkey said:


> I canâ€™t believe how oversensitive Iâ€™ve been throughout my 27 years on this planet.
> 
> Some of the people posting here are right â€" itâ€™s PC gone mad. The next time Iâ€™m called a Paki B*stard Iâ€™m not going to be
> hurt/upset/embarrassed. Iâ€™ll forgive the person and convince myself that Iâ€™ve taken the comment out of context.
> ...


How would 'Self Righteous Puffed up B*stard' resonate with you? :wink: :wink: :wink:

ps Joke. In case that was no obvious.


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## sonicmonkey (Mar 20, 2004)

That really hurt. I've spoken to the powers that be and they've suggested I take the rest of the day off and have a long weekend. Thank you very much Gary :lol:


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## stephengreen (May 6, 2002)

i completly agree with jampoTT on this one
my thoughts on the matter are ...
if ron had said that the footballer doesnt deserve to play football because hes black and for no other reason thats racist. using the word ****** to describe his colour and lazy to describe his commitment may be offensive to some but clearly wasnt racist in intent 
its not racist to describe someone by their colour, only if you discriminate and deny them opportunitys because of it.quite clearly ron has never done that, just the opposite in fact.


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

stephengreen said:


> i completly agree with jampoTT on this one
> my thoughts on the matter are ...
> if ron had said that the footballer doesnt deserve to play football because hes black and for no other reason thats racist. using the word ****** to describe his colour and lazy to describe his commitment may be offensive to some but clearly wasnt racist in intent
> its not racist to describe someone by their colour, only if you discriminate and deny them opportunitys because of it.quite clearly ron has never done that, just the opposite in fact.


I suppose that by that logic, 'Uncle Tom', 'Spade', '****' and 'Jig' are all equally just terms of endearment? :roll: :?


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

It's the same with the term 'Paki'. It's an abbrieviation that has been stolen by racists and now I'm sure would land you in trouble for using it. I wouldn't be offended for being referred to as a 'Brit' but 'Brit' hasn't been hijacked by the right wing.

If ****** is offensive (which is seems to be) it's purely because it's been stolen out of our vocabularly.

What I don't understand is how black people are 'allowed' to use it but whites aren't.


----------



## hudson (May 18, 2003)

jampott said:


> I also think Kilroy was wrong to be slated as well (and said so at the time)
> 
> Just out of interest, what word(s) CAN people use to describe "black" people without causing ANYONE any offence at all....
> 
> ...


----------



## garyc (May 7, 2002)

scoTTy said:


> It's the same with the term 'Paki'. It's an abbrieviation that has been stolen by racists and now I'm sure would land you in trouble for using it. I wouldn't be offended for being referred to as a 'Brit' but 'Brit' hasn't been hijacked by the right wing.
> 
> If black person is offensive (which is seems to be) it's purely because it's been stolen out of our vocabularly.
> 
> What I don't understand is how black people are 'allowed' to use it but whites aren't.


You don't have to understand it - just accept it. Just as you have to accept that being English, white and middle-classed automatically puts you at a disadvantage on all issues ethnic. No one (particularly the Race Relations legistlation) is going to stick up for you. It is all downside (as you are former or current oppressors) and your view simply has very little weight even in a wonderful free democracy such as ours.


----------



## jonah (Aug 17, 2002)

hudson said:


> jampott said:
> 
> 
> > I also think Kilroy was wrong to be slated as well (and said so at the time)
> ...


The reasons why baa baa black sheep was banned was because of underlieing meaning of the ryhm, as for black board that's just certain councils gone mad by banning everything with the word black in it.
As for what word you should use to describe a black person its "Black or Afro-Caribbian" How would you describe a white person? vary rarely as white just a general discription of height, hair colour, build. Vary rarely would you mention white in your description unless its for a police statment.
Blacks call other blacks the N word for a perfectly good reason and thats to take the offencsiveness out of the word. Saying that i know many black people who hate the way the word has been adopted by fellow black people and would tell that person if they were ever called it to their face.


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## imster (Apr 26, 2003)

nutts said:


> The corner shop, if owned by an indian / Pakistani / Bangladeshi / etc family, is generally known as the "Paki shop".
> 
> 
> 
> > If I heard you say that I would be extremely offended, and it owuldn't matter in what sense you meant to say it in.


----------



## Dubcat (Jun 10, 2002)

imster said:


> nutts said:
> 
> 
> > The corner shop, if owned by an indian / Pakistani / Bangladeshi / etc family, is generally known as the "Paki shop".
> ...


Yup - if I heard you say that i'd give you a pretty stern warning not to say it again...

By the way, my family is of Pakistani origin. Be honest, would you really call it a Paki shop in front of me?

If yes, then I hope I have just educated you to the fact that you should not use that term as it is highly offensive the vast majority of people of Pakistani origin.

If no, then you know it's an offensive term and choose to use it anyway. This of course means you have racist tendencies otherwise why would you choose to offend a race of people in this way.

Dubcat


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## Dotti (Mar 9, 2003)

How about Golliwog or ******...LOL... :lol: :roll:


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## nutts (May 8, 2002)

Guys (Dubcat & Imster),

You misunderstand... I'm saying the majority of the population of cities and towns in the areas of the north of England (that I've lived or worked in) refer to the corner shop as the "Pakishop". This is historical and IN NO WAY MEANS that it is a racially intended phrase :? And having lived there it is not thought of as strange (which is sad  ). It is a phrase that is used and is NOT thought of as strange by the majority of people living there... including a lot of my Indian & Pakistani mates...

Maybe it's different where you live?

In Bradford calling a Pakistani bloke a Paki is bad, but calling the corner shop a Pakishop is not... Is is definitely NOT a racially motivated phrase!!!

Having travelled quite substantially before, during & after living in Bradford/Leeds I have a different outlook and would never use the word Paki in any context (other than this type of discussion)!!! Nor would I ever use the "N" word!



imster said:


> nutts said:
> 
> 
> > The corner shop, if owned by an indian / Pakistani / Bangladeshi / etc family, is generally known as the "Paki shop".
> ...


----------



## stephengreen (May 6, 2002)

> I suppose that by that logic, 'Uncle Tom', 'Spade', '****' and 'Jig' are all equally just terms of endearment?


well i suppose without PC they well could be in certain situations and offensive in others.
sometimes i just think people confuse being "offensive" with being "racist."
a friend of mine was recently arrested for calling a black bouncer a "black bastard" during an argument. unbelivable but true.the fact that he MIGHT have been a bastard and WAS black seemed to have been overlooked.surely describing someone as they are,(black) cant be racist. and calling someone something they might not be(bastard) is being offensive not racist.otherwise ive been the victim of racist thoughts many times on this forum alone!
in my view the very fact the police made an arrest was racist in its self because they are infuring that black people are disadvantaged by people being offensive but white people arnt therefore re-enforcing the idea that theyre different from the rest of us.
this thinking extends to the MET force who now say that black and ethnic minoritys are going to be given special consideration if they apply WHAT!
isnt that denying an opportunity because of colour? in other words blatant racism yet none of them has been told to resign. but ron who never chose anyone based on colour but on ability alone had to!
THE WORLDS GONE MAD!


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## racer (Feb 3, 2003)

Who says Ron Atkinson talks a load of bollox. :lol: 
Ron Atkinson Quotes

"Carlton Palmer can trap the ball further than I can kick it!" 
"He was lightning slow" 
"Nil-nil is a big score" 
"Now Manchester United are 2-1 down on aggregate, they are in a better position than when they started the game at 1-1" 
"Ryan Giggs is running long up the backside" 
"I would not say David Ginola is the best left winger in the Premiership, but there are none better" 
"The Bulgarian players are tried and trusted. Well, I'm not sure they can be trusted" 
"I tell you what, if the Cameroons get a goal back here they're literally gonna catch on fire" 
"Well, Clive, it's all about the two M's. Movement and positioning" 
"Suker - first touch like a camel" 
"His white boots were on fire against Arsenal, and he'll be looking for them to reproduce tonight"

"When you're at that end of the table, normally you're looking for front players but he's got four good ones in Brian Deane, Hamilton Ricard, Alen Boksic and Noel Whelan" 
"He actually looks a little twat, that Totti" 
"That boy throws a ball further than I go on holiday" -On Dave Challinor of Tranmere. 
"The keeper should have saved that one but he did" 
"The Spaniards have been reduced to aiming aimless balls into the box" 
"If Glenn Hoddle said one word to his team at half time, it was concentration and focus"

"Woodcock would have scored, but his shot was too perfect"

"Someone in the England team will have to grab the ball by the horns" 
"He's not only a good player, but he's spiteful in the nicest sense of the word" 
"He sliced the ball when he had it on a plate" 
"I'm afraid they've left their legs at home" 
"I think that was a moment of cool panic there" 
"Beckenbauer really has gambled all his eggs" 
"They've done the old-fashioned things well; they've kicked the ball, they've headed it" 
"Chelsea look like they've got a couple more gears left in the locker"


----------



## Dubcat (Jun 10, 2002)

^Abi^ said:


> How about Golliwog or ******...LOL... :lol: :roll:


Abi - what do you find so funny? Growing up in the 70's gollywog and ****** were favourite words used by skinheads against me as well as groups of kids in the playground taunting me. I fail to see the funny side of it. :? My memories of those words are being chased down the street and being very scared. Do you know what it is like to feel that scared? 7 years old with skinheads who looked like they were 100 ft tall to me running after me and my mates... ? I've had a brick in the back of my head while being called paki and gollywog.. I don't think you have any idea how that feels and I hope you never do find out how it feels either.

I understand that some of you think this is PC gone mad. However, when you have been on the recieving end of some of these terms in very violent or scary situations you do NOT think it is PC gone mad. The NF and BNP are alive and strong. To some of us with first hand experience, these groups and these kinds of issues are VERY serious.

The words ****** and paki, the bnp, the nf, racism.. these things are intertwined in my experience. Many of you are saying you would never use these words but you think this is pc gone mad? Why would you never use those words? You know they would cause offense - that is why. If that is so, why is it ok for others to use those words? At the end of the day, I don't aim to change your behaviour or your way of thinking. Primarily because I know i can not do that at a web forum! However, understand this. The words you are talking about DO hurt peoples feelings, and they DO cause anger and fear.. discussing the rights and wrongs of the situation do not change that plain and simple fact.

So, I ask you, what is more important. Peoples feelings or the fact that the origins of these words are not racist in nature? Who is paying the bigger price here? Those choosing to stop using these words or those who feel they are the subject of racism when these words are used?

Dubcat


----------



## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

stephengreen said:


> a friend of mine was recently arrested for calling a black bouncer a "black bastard" during an argument. unbelivable but true.the fact that he MIGHT have been a bastard and WAS black seemed to have been overlooked.surely describing someone as they are,(black) cant be racist.


If in the same situation with a white bouncer you can guarantee that he would have called him a "white bastard" then maybe that's just the way he is. However what the hell has his colour got to do with anything. Why mentioned his colour? It's not relevant. Therefore it implies that he was using the word black to be derisory i.e to increase the offense caused by the comment. The same as the word Paki is not on it's own offensive neither is black but due to it's previous use it and the way your mate used it, both words come with a payload of racism.


----------



## jonah (Aug 17, 2002)

^Abi^ said:


> How about Golliwog or ******...LOL... :lol: :roll:


I feel sorry for your kids Abby!

Just goes to show that nomatter what sort of education or upbringing you have some people have no idea or the real world out there or do they and are just racist trying to make themselves feel better by having a intelligent debate on the subject :? 
Some of the comments have come from people who i think have either been wrapped in cotton wool all their lives or just dont grasp what actually goes on in the real world or maybe they do. :?


----------



## stephengreen (May 6, 2002)

scoTTy said:


> stephengreen said:
> 
> 
> > a friend of mine was recently arrested for calling a black bouncer a "black bastard" during an argument. unbelivable but true.the fact that he MIGHT have been a bastard and WAS black seemed to have been overlooked.surely describing someone as they are,(black) cant be racist.
> ...


bloody hell scoTTy do you realise what your saying!
since when has being called black been offensive?
it can only be deemed offensive if you are ashamed at being black and dont want it pointing out.
describing a colour isnt racist or offensive its only stating facts.but its the PC element that has brainwashed some people into thinking otherwise.
saying that your a bastard is offensive if your not but its hardly lock you up behaviour.


----------



## L8_0RGY (Sep 12, 2003)

One new Mens weekly magazine are going to have egg on their face next week as this weeks issue has a competition for the best Ron Atkinson quote.

"All you have to do is send us a Ronism with a brief explanation of what it means. We'll ask Big Ron to pick his weekly winner"

Hmmm, wonder HOW many people will text in with puns about what he said Marcel Desailly!!

Could Nuts have predicted this any worse!!!???


----------



## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

Simple question - what did his colour have to do with it? I'm struggling to understand why is what mentioned.

If he gets served in a shop by a Chinese person, does he say "Thanks Chinaman"?

Of course describing someone as black is not racist and you know that as well as I do but can you not accept that words can be used in different situations resulting in different interpretations, implications, etc, etc.

I wouldn't dream of mentioning someones colour/race/creed etc in normal conversation in the same way I don't walk up to any white friends saying "hi honky" or "white boy".

:?


----------



## L8_0RGY (Sep 12, 2003)

As i recall it, he didn't mention the word "black" but said;

"he's a f***ing useless n***er"

Slight difference :wink:


----------



## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

No ones suggesting Big Ron did. The discussion is about a bouncer.


----------



## stephengreen (May 6, 2002)

Dubcat said:


> ^Abi^ said:
> 
> 
> > How about Golliwog or ******...LOL... :lol: :roll:
> ...


dubcat ive every sympathy that you were attacked
BUT
i was attacked and picked on at school because i was skinny
others because they were gay
others because they lived on a different estate
for you to stand up and say you should illicit more sympathy by saying "iz it cos ize black" is ludicrus.
the fact is the words being used by your attakers were offensive and you will never stop all these people feeling or thinking.
at the end of the day if the words being used were indirectly describing your colour and if youve no problem with your colour whats the problem?
if you stopped being offended the words would no longer be offensive,simple.
it was their actions that were racist and deplorable and its this that should be stamped on because it is something society can do something about.
but with the same measure as any other form of discrimmination.


----------



## r1 (Oct 31, 2002)

I think that you could do with a spell checker.


----------



## stephengreen (May 6, 2002)

r1 said:


> I think that you could do with a spell checker.


WOW! what an interesting and thought provoking contribution to this topic 
well done r1 [smiley=sleeping.gif]


----------



## r1 (Oct 31, 2002)

stephengreen said:


> r1 said:
> 
> 
> > I think that you could do with a spell checker.
> ...


See you can do it when you try.


----------



## L8_0RGY (Sep 12, 2003)

stephengreen said:


> r1 said:
> 
> 
> > I think that you could do with a spell checker.
> ...


Another complimentary comment on one of our established members.

Nice one Stephen.


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## stephengreen (May 6, 2002)

scoTTy said:


> Simple question - what did his colour have to do with it? I'm struggling to understand why is what mentioned.
> 
> If he gets served in a shop by a Chinese person, does he say "Thanks Chinaman"?
> 
> ...





> what did his colour have to do with it? I'm struggling to understand why is what mentioned.


simple answer ,nothing,which is the whole point
why shouldnt his colour be mentioned?
the only effect that mentioning someones colour in an offensive context is if you think that the person will be offended.but why should anyone be offended by their colour?


> I wouldn't dream of mentioning someones colour/race/creed etc in normal conversation in the same way I don't walk up to any white friends saying "hi honky" or "white boy"


you wouldnt say white boy to one because if you wanted to offend him it wouldnt he would just think that its strange that your stating the obvious.the point being that if black people brushed the chip from their shoulders and stopped being offended by factual statments they would think the same!after all if youve no problem being a particular colour why should you be offended?


> Of course describing someone as black is not racist and you know that as well as I do but can you not accept that words can be used in different situations resulting in different interpretations, implications, etc, etc.


yes scoTTy i can but its up to black people not to be offended by their colour that will eventually stamp this practise out.
after all if the intention is to offend you have to use terms you think your victim will find offensive


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## stephengreen (May 6, 2002)

L8_0RGY said:


> stephengreen said:
> 
> 
> > r1 said:
> ...


thank you orgy
but of course how long youve been a member has no relation to being able to form an opinion 
but if you think it does check out who's been a member longest and rate their opinions accordingly
incidently when did you join?


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## L8_0RGY (Sep 12, 2003)

After you i think by the looks of your profile - it says it below your username.

(Woops )


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## whirlypig (Feb 20, 2003)

jampott said:


> It does seem that noone is entirely sure exactly what was said... but concensus of opinion seems to suggest something along the lines of:
> 
> "He's what is known in some schools as a f-cking lazy thick ******."
> 
> ...


Looks like I'm in the minority here, even after re-reading what he said a number of times and going over the arguments put forward it still stinks of racism to me.

Quite simply he _did_ use the "N" word which as far as I'm aware has been used as a derogatory term for as far back as I can remember. It might still be acceptable in some tiny southern town in the US, for some rappers and for a few forum members but I'd be shocked to hear it anywhere else.



jampott said:


> Racism is all about context. How else can someone suggest that the "N" word alone is racist, when its is difficult to name one black rapper who doesn't pepper most of his lyrics with it. Obviously its OK for the black community to refer to itself as "n1ggers" - it must be, as noone is accusing Ice T of being racist are they?


Quite agree racism is all about context, but Atkinson is no black rapper so I'd guess the reason for his use of "N" word is in a quite different context.



jampott said:


> Ron made his comments pretty much in the third person. He is also quite right. A lot of people probably DO think that Marcel is a f-cking thick ******.


I'd be surprised if a lot of people thought that way, I think he's a bit thick, he's a footballer, par for the course. Do I believe that I need to express an opinion of him by highlighting his race, possibly if I'm telling someone who's not familiar with Desailly, his colour isn't relevant but you may want to help disitinguish who on the pitch the comment is in reference to. But why use "N" word unless of course to Ron it's a term of endearment. :?


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

Hmmmm

When people are in the heat of the moment, they say things that they don't necessarily "believe" in, sometimes completely subconsciously, but also for "effect". Some of you don't like swearing, but WILL swear in the right context. Sometimes without realising it. Its an emphasis. An outburst. A reaction. Think of it like a mild form of Tourette's. You hit your thumbnail with a hammer, and words will come out that you don't normally use...

I'm not (and won't be) stating that Ron was right to say what he did. Just that I don't think it makes him a racist.

Think back, people. How many times have you been in an argument. A war of words. How many times have you said something you might later regret. How many times have you commented to your friends on X, Y or Z and used less than complimentary words? How many times have you sworn, or used the word "b*stard" to describe someone? How many times have you called someone (to their face, or otherwise) a poof, a pr*ck, a fat XYZ, a stupid so-and-so.

Think about it. A LOT of the words you would use to put people down, especially when describing them to your friends, aren't very nice. As far as things like that are concerned, let him without sin cast the first stone.

I don't believe Ron should be tarred as a racist. I think that word should be reserved for people who truly ARE racists - those who persecute people based on the colour of their skin, or who actively involve themselves in, or promote violence or racial hatred.


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## Wallsendmag (Feb 12, 2004)

Having been at the match yesterday and having seen him be at fault for two goals I can confirm Desailly was lazy :?


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## stephengreen (May 6, 2002)

isnt the whole concept of individual countrys racist?
isnt the denial of entry and residency of a particular nation because of race racist?
isnt a passport a symbol of a racist concept?
isnt supporting one race against another in an international football match and celebrating when the other side is defeated racist?
It wont be untill the world is governed by a single parliment and our country is planet earth that we will even begin to eradicate racism 
in the mean time not confusing being offensive with being racist would be a good start.


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## jgoodman00 (May 6, 2002)

IMO the biggest racist I have ever seen is Halle Berry. She was on Parkinson a while back, & she kept going on about how she had lost jobs because of her colour. Never once did she suggest she might not have been suitable for other reasons.

I believe it is people like her who are keeping something which is all but gone in the public eye, continually dragging up the past, & she is actively racist against white people.


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

stephengreen said:


> isnt the whole concept of individual countrys racist? Only if they want to gas and exterminate their neighbours
> 
> isnt the denial of entry and residency of a particular nation because of race racist? Not necessarily
> 
> ...


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## L8_0RGY (Sep 12, 2003)

wallsendmag said:


> Having been at the match yesterday and having seen him be at fault for two goals I can confirm Desailly was lazy :?


 :lol:

Damn Desailly, if he'd have played a bit harder it would have meant Chelsea may have won, and Arsenal may not have celebrated winning the league yesterday.


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## jgoodman00 (May 6, 2002)

stephengreen said:


> isnt the whole concept of individual countrys racist?
> isnt the denial of entry and residency of a particular nation because of race racist?
> isnt a passport a symbol of a racist concept?
> isnt supporting one race against another in an international football match and celebrating when the other side is defeated racist?
> ...


I thought the concept of race was based on colour, not nationality?


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

jgoodman00 said:


> stephengreen said:
> 
> 
> > isnt the whole concept of individual countrys racist?
> ...


What colour are the Welsh? :wink:


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## Wallsendmag (Feb 12, 2004)

garyc said:


> jgoodman00 said:
> 
> 
> > stephengreen said:
> ...


I thought Wales was a principality not a country :?: and the two who play for us are usually red in the face though not for the same reasons :roll:


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

wallsendmag said:


> garyc said:
> 
> 
> > jgoodman00 said:
> ...


It is, juts like Monaco (well not quite like Monaco, but they have same nation status. But the people are still Welsh.


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## Wallsendmag (Feb 12, 2004)

garyc said:


> wallsendmag said:
> 
> 
> > garyc said:
> ...


And heres me just about to say I didn't know Monaco was famous for sheep leeks and dragons :lol:


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## Dotti (Mar 9, 2003)

jonah said:


> ^Abi^ said:
> 
> 
> > How about Golliwog or ******...LOL... :lol: :roll:
> ...


Just take a hard look at what people have actually typed Jonah? It's them you should feel sorry for! Explaining what we already know in the society we live in!

I actually was trying to make light of this thead because I'm sick to death of you lot keep going on and on like bloody fish wives! Your worse than women the lot of you.

End of! Accept the society we all live in. It ain't gonna go away nor are names, sticks and stones blah blah balh......

This thread is also getting boring!


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## Dotti (Mar 9, 2003)

Oh and one more thing Jonah, if you had any idea of my 'upbringing', as you so put it, which you know frig all about, and my background which you also know frig all about, maybe it would bring you a little bit more down to earth and get your head out of the 'superior TT world' that most of you think you live in!


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## stephengreen (May 6, 2002)

garyc said:


> stephengreen said:
> 
> 
> > isnt the whole concept of individual countrys racist? Only if they want to gas and exterminate their neighbours
> ...


on this i agree with you gary
i belive that racism started as tribalism it was a banding together of groups of people in order to survive
people tend to forget that if earths age was condensed into a day man has only been here for less than a second little wonder that some of us havent yet become civilised!


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## Dubcat (Jun 10, 2002)

look in the mirror freaks 

Interestingly, if you a search for alf garnett on google, and click on the images button, you only get 3 pages of results. On the second page is a TT gearstick! Try it for yourself and see!

Talk about twighlight zone..

dubdubdub


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## John C (Jul 5, 2002)

Dubcat said:


> I understand that some of you think this is PC gone mad. However, when you have been on the recieving end of some of these terms in very violent or scary situations you do NOT think it is PC gone mad. The NF and BNP are alive and strong. To some of us with first hand experience, these groups and these kinds of issues are VERY serious.
> 
> The words ****** and paki, the bnp, the nf, racism.. these things are intertwined in my experience. Many of you are saying you would never use these words but you think this is pc gone mad? Why would you never use those words? You know they would cause offense - that is why. If that is so, why is it ok for others to use those words? At the end of the day, I don't aim to change your behaviour or your way of thinking. Primarily because I know i can not do that at a web forum! However, understand this. The words you are talking about DO hurt peoples feelings, and they DO cause anger and fear.. discussing the rights and wrongs of the situation do not change that plain and simple fact.
> 
> Dubcat


I think Dubcat's point sums things up for me. Any form of name calling, abuse, use of 'taboo' words etc has all to do with how the receiver takes the comments. It doesnâ€™t matter whether a person thinks a word is fine (or otherwise) in their eyes, it is how the person receiving the comment takes it that is the real indication that wrong has been done.

Ok, as some here know I have a distinct lack of hair! Now when I get called a bald bas*Â£$rd by one of my friends I take this as the light humoured banter that it is normally intended with but if a stranger suddenly started baldly 'jokes' I might not be so accommodating and possibly take offence. Had this happened 10 years ago when I first started 'loosing it', and was much more sensitive about the subject, then such a phrase would have really hurt.

I think this is a very simplistic example of why people are trying to make 'reasoned' (ahem?) arguments about this subject.

If we are trying to draw parallels about rappers using words which are used in different circumstances form Football presenters we may as well try to add apples and pears. Communication is more than words, it is about context, tone, body language and a whole host of other, more subtle, non-verbal signals.

So letâ€™s thinks less about the absolute words we are using and more about how others may take the meaning behind our words. In other words the whole thing is impossible to control as we regularly do not know how others will react. Perhaps it is no surprise that PC has, or appeares to some, to have gone mad.

If we think something may offend then we have to be prepared to suffer the consequences of the receiver taking offence.

Finally for me there are some words used here which I would simply never say to anyone, don't know if that makes me PC mad, too cautious, or just sensitive to the feelings of others? I know I will screw up sometime by offending someone by saying something, but I know for a fact it will not be by using some of the words in this thread.


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## Dotti (Mar 9, 2003)

Dubcat said:


> look in the mirror freaks
> 
> Interestingly, if you a search for alf garnett on google, and click on the images button, you only get 3 pages of results. On the second page is a TT gearstick! Try it for yourself and see!
> 
> ...


Made my day, made me laugh glad someone has a good sense of humour on this forum top bloke [smiley=dude.gif]


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## jonah (Aug 17, 2002)

^Abi^ said:


> Oh and one more thing Jonah, if you had any idea of my 'upbringing', as you so put it, which you know frig all about, and my background which you also know frig all about, maybe it would bring you a little bit more down to earth and get your head out of the 'superior TT world' that most of you think you live in!


I didn't actually mention your education! Infact I said "No matter what education people have" meaning high school, college, uni ect ect
I'm sure you fall into one of these catogorys.

Education starts at home and if parents are quite happy to use certain words whether in jest or not their children will use them Fact!


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

stephengreen said:


> garyc said:
> 
> 
> > stephengreen said:
> ...


If 'White man speaks with forked tongue', would there be a difference in the shape of a black/yellow/red man's tongue if the situation was reversed?

If racism miraculously disappeared tomorrow, would everybody love the French?

Fun - these oblique rhetorical questions. :wink:


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## L8_0RGY (Sep 12, 2003)

^Abi^ said:


> Oh and one more thing Jonah, if you had any idea of my 'upbringing', as you so put it, which you know frig all about, and my background which you also know frig all about, maybe it would bring you a little bit more down to earth and get your head out of the 'superior TT world' that most of you think you live in!


Meowwwww! It's all kicking off in here - what have i missed!



dubcat said:


> look in the mirror freaks
> 
> Interestingly, if you a search for alf garnett on google, and click on the images button, you only get 3 pages of results. On the second page is a TT gearstick! Try it for yourself and see!


Handbags at ten paces


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

I think that the majority of us are all inherently "racist", on the grounds that we prefer to "group together" with our own race. Whilst there is no deliberate exclusion, it simply happens.

Human nature is to gravitate towards bondings and groupings in which we are most "comfortable". People who support the same football team. People who have the same political ideals. People who drive the same make/model of car.

From a socio-economic standpoint, we group with people of a similar background, class etc. Brits who emigrate to (say) Spain, all seem to setup home close to one another for moral support. To make a little bit of "England" in a foreign country. It is certainly true of inward migration into this country, into places like America etc. What start out as little "enclaves" to provide mutual support become isolated pockets, effectively cut-off from the rest of the country. Sub-communities within themselves.

There are parts of Birmingham where almost all of the "white" teachers have been forced out of their schools. Why? Because they no longer speak the local "language" of the community. Wrong? I think so. The same city tried to promote "Wintermass" instead of "Christmas" so as not to offend the many religious groups living there who don't (or shouldn't) celebrate Christmas.

It is fair to say that we look DOWN on the type of brit who moves abroad to live, yet still refuses to speak the "lingo", demands his "English" local, his Heinz ketchup, his News of The World paper. Well *I* do. If you move abroad, the emphasis needs to be on "integration" - not forcing your own culture and community upon others.

But by the same token, we are forced to consider inward migration to the UK as a POSITIVE thing. Even if these people choose to speak their own language, retain a completely different set of cultural values, and in many ways actively choose not to integrate with the society in which they have chosen to live amongst.

I would consider myself both an educated and reasonable person. But I do see the above as a contradiction...


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## stephengreen (May 6, 2002)

> If 'White man speaks with forked tongue', would there be a difference in the shape of a black/yellow/red man's tongue if the situation was reversed?
> 
> If racism miraculously disappeared tomorrow, would everybody love the French?
> 
> Fun - these oblique rhetorical questions.


well, if the situation was reversed white man would just say your a "lying bastard". after all, were good at calling a "spade a spade" 

as for the french, good question! :lol:


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## Wallsendmag (Feb 12, 2004)

garyc
If racism miraculously disappeared tomorrow said:


> Not until they put consistent corners accross and track back more :?


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## Dubcat (Jun 10, 2002)

stephengreen said:


> well, if the situation was reversed white man would just say your a "lying bastard". after all, were good at calling a "spade a spade"


we?


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## stephengreen (May 6, 2002)

Dubcat said:


> stephengreen said:
> 
> 
> > well, if the situation was reversed white man would just say your a "lying bastard". after all, were good at calling a "spade a spade"
> ...


in the context of it being a white man replying and myself being white then yes, 
WE!


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