# Tell me you love me whilst I shaft you!



## BreTT (Oct 30, 2002)

That is precisely the way I feel this afternoon. We are in dispute with our farmer who owns the land surrounding our house. After living here for six years we've found out that the boundary is marked wrong and the net effect is that 0.04 of an acre is not ours. Not a problem thinks I, we'll sort it out properly i.e. offer to pay for it.

Fine says the farmer, go away and come back with an offer. Spoke to a respected land agent who says it is worth Â£600 max. Offered farmer Â£2k and he says forget it, Â£20k is the minimum he'll even consider and even then he's not sure because of what it will cost in legal expenses etc.

I feel like telling him to stick it but it will severely limit what we can do to develop/extend the property in the future and he knows it. Feel like I am being held to ransom. I have until tomorrow to make up my mind.


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## cuTTsy (Jan 31, 2003)

Can you go back to your lawyer or surveyor from when you brought the property surely this is something they should have picked up? Can you claim compensation from their insurance? Then use this towards the purchase?

Just an idea probably not much help...


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## BreTT (Oct 30, 2002)

cuTTsy said:


> Can you go back to your lawyer or surveyor from when you brought the property surely this is something they should have picked up? Can you claim compensation from their insurance? Then use this towards the purchase?
> 
> Just an idea probably not much help...


Probably not because there has never been a formal boundary wall - the reason we discovered this was because the farmer is putting up a new stock proof fence and wanted to ensure it was going in the right place. That is when we discovered that a section of the garden that we'd both assumed was ours isn't. I am investigating another angle though whereby an "adopted" boundary that hasn't been challenged for two years can potentially become your property. Waiting for a call back on that one!


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## The Silver Surfer (May 14, 2002)

Can you not employ a Surveyor to value the piece of land? Surely that's the best way to ascertain the true worth of the land?

And, in the interests of balance/fairness, the farmer could instruct his own Surveyor to do the same thing.

Where is he getting the Â£20k figure from?


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## jonah (Aug 17, 2002)

The Silver Surfer said:


> Where is he getting the Â£20k figure from?


Probably because agricultual land is worth a quarter of land able to be developed, and as Bret has said i changes all plans he has for development of the house.


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## R6B TT (Feb 25, 2003)

Yep, some friends sold a strip of garden (about 8 feet) to their neighbour as they wanted to extend a single garage into a double so they could put both cars away when they went to their house abroad.

They weren't sure what to ask as a valuation would have been a couple of hundred quid so I suggested 10 - 15k - and they got it. After all, an extra garage will add value to the buyers home.


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## cuTTsy (Jan 31, 2003)

BreTT said:


> cuTTsy said:
> 
> 
> > Can you go back to your lawyer or surveyor from when you brought the property surely this is something they should have picked up? Can you claim compensation from their insurance? Then use this towards the purchase?
> ...


When we brought our house we had plans outlining all boundaries, this might have been with the deeds can't remember. Not sure you need a physical boundary.

I hope you get it sorted.


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## BreTT (Oct 30, 2002)

He got that based on the following reasoning:

Local town to us has development land going at Â£500,000 per acre. Therefore 0.04 x Â£500,000 = Â£20,000.

Doesn't matter than he specifically wrote into the titles that we cannot develop on the land. As far as he is concerned it is development land not agricultural land and as he owns it, he can charge what he likes.


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## BreTT (Oct 30, 2002)

By the way, spoke to Strutt & Parker on this and they suggested it was worth Â£600 as agricultural land and that Â£2k was a reasonable and fair offer. Given they are experts in this, I felt I was making a sensible bid.


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## Laura (Oct 27, 2006)

that sucks,

we have a shared boundry with some land at the back of my house a 12ft wide strip about 100ft long and neither of us own it, its caused nothing but trouble


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## Widget (May 7, 2002)

If you want to develop on it, then why on earth should it be deemed as agricultural land?

People just don't like seeing other people making money. He just wants his slice, and in today's climate, I'm afraid you should of seen it coming.


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## T7 Doc (Jun 28, 2007)

i own land in NI - I had a farmer come on to it and start grazing cows on it like he owned it. I spoke to my "brief" as they call them on TV and he said I needed to get a No Trespassing sign up asap - Basically after 2 years of using the land you can claim it. Its law in NI might not be the same in UK but I would think it is.

Otherwise just shoot him - problem gone - Another good NI way of dealing with things ;o)


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## BreTT (Oct 30, 2002)

Widget said:


> If you want to develop on it, then why on earth should it be deemed as agricultural land?
> 
> People just don't like seeing other people making money. He just wants his slice, and in today's climate, I'm afraid you should of seen it coming.


Actually we cannot develop on the land as he has specifically written into the titles that we can't. We want to extend our property and this would have an impact if we chose to go out that way but we cannot develop i.e. build a granny flat for example. Speaking to property surveyors they are telling me that it cannot be classed as development land and therefore shouldn't be sold at development land prices.

I am happy to pay somewhere inbetween the two values as the land has more "value" to me than plain agricultural land, but feel I am being shafted being asked for the full cost of development land as it could not be developed by me, or anyone else for that matter - not even the farmer.


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## BreTT (Oct 30, 2002)

Barryodoc said:


> i own land in NI - I had a farmer come on to it and start grazing cows on it like he owned it. I spoke to my "brief" as they call them on TV and he said I needed to get a No Trespassing sign up asap - Basically after 2 years of using the land you can claim it. Its law in NI might not be the same in UK but I would think it is.
> 
> Otherwise just shoot him - problem gone - Another good NI way of dealing with things ;o)


Checked this out - don't have a land to stand on according to my solicitor. This only applies where no title has been asserted i.e. "unclaimed land".

As for suggestion number two, he is the farmer, has the guns and is almost certainly a better shot than me. Thanks for the suggestion though :-D


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

Adverse possession is something like 12 years, not 2.

A good source of information is http://www.gardenlaw.co.uk


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## zedman (Jan 31, 2005)

brett how much if anything would it increase the value of your property by?


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## BreTT (Oct 30, 2002)

zedman said:


> brett how much if anything would it increase the value of your property by?


Probably minimal - it is simply that it would limit what we can do in the future which _could_ add value.


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## John C (Jul 5, 2002)

Bugger B, sorry to hear. No advice about the land however me and Saint are having a pint tomorrow night. I was going to text you tonight! Want to join us and rant over a pint? Usual place usual time.


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

BreTT said:


> By the way, spoke to Strutt & Parker on this and they suggested it was worth Â£600 as agricultural land and that Â£2k was a reasonable and fair offer. Given they are experts in this, I felt I was making a sensible bid.


You could have him killed for less. :idea:


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## Leg (Jan 11, 2006)

Invite some pikeys onto the bit of land in question. Farmers hate em, he will take a tenner of you for it then. The pikeys will move on eventually, probably take half your property with them as well but at least you will have the land.

You may get a new pet into the bargain. D'ya like dags?


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## BreTT (Oct 30, 2002)

Thanks for all the suggestions - many of them made me chuckle. We've decided to spend the money on the house instead and told the farmer "thanks but no thanks". All very amicable.

On the upside we've been debating (for almost as long as we've been here) whether to extend up (my preference) or out (her preference). We can no longer extend out...


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## HighTT (Feb 14, 2004)

If as a future 'Marriage' value the land may well be worth more than Â£20K to you, but if the farmer has already placed a Restrictive Covenant' on it
(which can be challenged) I would avoid buying it.

However ...... why don't you suggest that in exchange for lifting the restrictive covenant and selling you the land for a fair price,
that you enter into a 'Claw Back' agreement which would give him a share of any future profits (and he would have the purchase price now).

That way I reckon you both have a win win situation.


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## BreTT (Oct 30, 2002)

HighTT said:


> If as a future 'Marriage' value the land may well be worth more than Â£20K to you, but if the farmer has already placed a Restrictive Covenant' on it
> (which can be challenged) I would avoid buying it.
> 
> However ...... why don't you suggest that in exchange for lifting the restrictive covenant and selling you the land for a fair price,
> ...


Thanks for the suggestion - we've had a long face to face chat this morning. He has admitted that he didn't really want to sell the land to me but would have taken Â£20k by way of "compensation". Ultimately we looked at what else we could spend that Â£20k on and couldn't justify it to ourselves.

I've suggested we "re-invest" the money in a new car for me e.g. Maserati, Aston Martin etc but that isn't an option either I've been told. Hey ho, guess she'll get her new bathroom and kitchen after all :roll:


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## mike_bailey (May 7, 2002)

He might crack later when he needs the money.


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## BreTT (Oct 30, 2002)

mike_bailey said:


> He might crack later when he needs the money.


Maybe - if he does, it will be only worth Â£100 in my book


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## R6B TT (Feb 25, 2003)

What animals does he have ? Cows and Sheep ?

Can you simulate foot and mouth symptoms by feeding them Andrews Liver Salts or similar ? That should get him going and keen to negotiate


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## BreTT (Oct 30, 2002)

R6B TT said:


> What animals does he have ? Cows and Sheep ?
> 
> Can you simulate foot and mouth symptoms by feeding them Andrews Liver Salts or similar ? That should get him going and keen to negotiate


You're a wicked man! 

Actually having gone through the last outbreak and all the restrictions that were imposed on me accessing my property, I really don't want to go through that again.


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

IIRC & when we last checked, agricultural land (in the North of England anyway) is around Â£2K per acre, but being subjective, land is worth whatever anyone is prepared to pay for it.

We have a 3.2 acre field behind our house that's green belt, has limited access & has only just been re-classified for a further 10/12yrs, however we offered the owners Â£20K & they declined & have now sold the field to developers for Â£80K  Nothing anyone can do with the field for another 10yrs, however no doubt if they can get it re-classified in 2017 then a goldmine they've bought, as if they can get PP it would be worth over Â£1Million


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## BreTT (Oct 30, 2002)

W7 PMC said:


> IIRC & when we last checked, agricultural land (in the North of England anyway) is around Â£2K per acre, but being subjective, land is worth whatever anyone is prepared to pay for it.
> 
> We have a 3.2 acre field behind our house that's green belt, has limited access & has only just been re-classified for a further 10/12yrs, however we offered the owners Â£20K & they declined & have now sold the field to developers for Â£80K  Nothing anyone can do with the field for another 10yrs, however no doubt if they can get it re-classified in 2017 then a goldmine they've bought, as if they can get PP it would be worth over Â£1Million


The farmer has diversified pretty successfully into other things including plant hire and scaffolding. His main income source though, is buying plots and putting services into them, then selling on at a "vast profit" (his words not mine). He was telling me that he recently bid Â£840,000 for an acre of land with planning permission agreed and didn't get it. Quite right though, the land is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it, and in this instance, the price was way too high for me.


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## HighTT (Feb 14, 2004)

There's a family in and around our village - let's call them Mr. & Mrs. Grundy (they are VERY similar) :x who aquire agricultural land, put in P.P. to errect an agricultural building, get it and then several years down the line put in for change of use, and then sell it as a 'Barn Conversion' :roll:


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## BreTT (Oct 30, 2002)

HighTT said:


> There's a family in and around our village - let's call them Mr. & Mrs. Grundy (they are VERY similar) :x who aquire agricultural land, put in P.P. to errect an agricultural building, get it and then several years down the line put in for change of use, and then sell it as a 'Barn Conversion' :roll:


Must be "tight" with someone in planning to make that fly!


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

All sorts of loopholes i'm afraid.

Another great trick is to build a huge Barn (proper barn desribed as for agricultural use) then over the next couple of years, build a very large house INSIDE the barn, ask for re-classification, then knock the barn down revealing the luxury dwelling & sell that for a huge sum.

The other clever part is that building a house INSIDE a barn does not throw up the regular building issues of access & the weather, as the house being built is always under cover.

Where their's a will their's a way.


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## phodge (Sep 1, 2002)

Didn't someone do that recently and get caught?


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## Coope (Dec 30, 2005)

.........If you can prove you have ' used the land ' for I think it is 7 years you can claim it as your own. So if you have only been there five years your f....d. I recently sold a slot of land for a client at the end of his garden to two neighbours for 15k and that was in a sought after area of the town I live in. If it really is only agricultural or garden use then 2k is a fair offer. Good Luck.
As a little storey to make you smile perhaps. I was recently asked to attend an eviction and on the day at the arranged time met up with the Balliff, locksmith, plumber and electrician to find the' property' was in fact a half acre of field ! Turns out a very clever guy had bought the 20 acre field for about 2k an acre, put post and tape up for boundaries dividing the field into half acre plots, got some really good drawing mad up of a lovely little site with artists impressions of the homes you could build and sold all the plots at 40k a piece ( Â£1.6 million ) Turns out there isnt a hope in hell of ever getting permission to build the things and the plots are worthless ( well, Â£1.500 per plot ). The guy who defaulted on his one had borrowed 35k to buy the thing so its gonna cost the lender more to sell it than sits worth.

Gary


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## whitty (May 17, 2002)

phodge said:


> Didn't someone do that recently and get caught?


Yeah - he has to demolish it as it was a blatant flout of planning

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=440771&in_page_id=1770


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