# Unnecessary cruelty and lack of consideration



## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

Should a minor inconvenience to the state and its power be reason to slap the face of minorities? Is this the society in which we wish to live?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... m=petition

It's not as if there's a choice in use of the currency of the land. That it was after consultation and listening to the strength of objections to the problem, coupled with alternatives being available but apparently now rejected, does the decision stand testament to a lack of compassion, empathy and forward thinking. Shame on them.


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## Hoggy (May 8, 2002)

Hi, Thought this may about someone putting their TT through a car wash. :lol: :lol: 
Hoggy.


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

That would be a one off and affecting only one TT owner that should know better after reading our site :wink: This is a continuous face slap in your wallet and affects everyone concerned. Responsible hands may not wash so easily however :!:


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

To add some balance, that article was a bit (deliberately and devisively) misleading. The banks weren't being 'secretive' and they didn't get 'caught out'. Tallow isn't an ingredient in the strictest sense of the term. It is used during the manufacture of the polymer pellets, and residue from this remains and will be present in the bank notes. That's not to say people shouldn't care because it's only a small amount, but I don't think it's fair to pretend the bank was scheming away when it didn't list it as an ingredient.

To play devils advocate, how big does a minority have to be before we get outraged by the lack of empathy and compassion? If a small group of people object to the exact polymer used, should it be changed?


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## Stiff (Jun 15, 2015)

Dear god, have we really come this far that people are whining about 'traces' of animal fat in money? You're not supposed to eat them. I'll also bet you that the vast majority of these moaning vegetarians are wearing leather or suede shoes, belts, using leather wallets, bags etc all whilst throwing their usual hissy fits.
A natural ingredient and by product which will continue to be produced whether we use it or not so what do the tree huggers think we should do with it?


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## Gray79 (Feb 10, 2017)

One of the biggest problems with our society is bowing down to the wishes of minorities when often ignoring the majority!


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

Gray79 said:


> One of the biggest problems with our society is bowing down to the wishes of minorities when often ignoring the majority!


Yeah, being a majority is a real hardship in this country, isn't it? Better education, better job prospects, better pay. So ignored. :wink:

Does the majority desperately *want* tallow in their bank notes then? Or are you saying you you don't really care what's in the bank note, but think we should ignore the wishes of a minority just to prove a point?


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## Gray79 (Feb 10, 2017)

Spandex said:


> Gray79 said:
> 
> 
> > One of the biggest problems with our society is bowing down to the wishes of minorities when often ignoring the majority!
> ...


I'm saying that minorities quite often get their way when it goes against the majority, for example the majority don't want brutally killed Hallal meat to be available, but due to a minority it is still allowed.

I don't know what it's like where you live but it makes no difference to your job prospects, pay or education if your a vegan where I live!

And in answer to your question I'm not bothered about the traces of tallow in a £5 note, I will still accept and spend them.


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

What about the Indian Rebellion of 1857?

The spark that led to a mutiny was the issue of new gunpowder cartridges for the Enfield rifle in February, 1857. British officers insisted that the new cartridges be used by both Muslim and Hindu soldiers, but the cartridges were made from cow and pig fat.

Don't say you've not been warned!


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

Gray79 said:


> I don't know what it's like where you live but it makes no difference to your job prospects, pay or education if your a vegan where I live!


Well, I live in the UK and there, statistically job prospects, pay and education are worse for minorities than they are for white British people.

Whilst this isn't entirely relevant to the issue John brought up, it's worth bearing in mind when claiming that minorities somehow get treated better when it comes to a choice between their wishes and the majorities.

You didn't actually answer my question though... I wanted to know why the majority wouldn't want tallow removed from the notes.


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## ZephyR2 (Feb 20, 2013)

Its not unlikely that if the tallow was removed from the manufacturing process then an alternative series of "ingredients" will have to be used which may then upset a different minority group.

Lets face it we sit on leather seats, wear leather shoes, drink beer which has been cleared with isinglass and handle or use thousands of everyday artefacts that have been made using glues and other products made from animal origins. Are these bank notes really such a big deal or is it just a chance to have a dig at the state.


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## Gray79 (Feb 10, 2017)

Spandex said:


> Gray79 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know what it's like where you live but it makes no difference to your job prospects, pay or education if your a vegan where I live!
> ...


So automatically when minorities are talked about you assume their race, you don't have to have a different skin colour to be a minority!

I live in the UK too, and as I said being a minority does not change your job prospects, pay or education! Unfortunately skin colour or sex could, but I didn't see that as being relevant to this debate.


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## bobclive22 (Apr 5, 2010)

> Well, I live in the UK and there, statistically job prospects, pay and education are worse for minorities than they are for white British people.


Well Spandex, perhaps you should visit your local hospital or chemist and see which race appears to have many of the top jobs.
Before you rant I am not racist just stating a fact, also have a look at who owns most of the corner shops and petrol stations, seems the minorities are doing just fine.


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## bobclive22 (Apr 5, 2010)

> I wanted to know why the majority wouldn't want tallow removed from the notes.


*Fight Climate Change by Going Vegan*

If you're serious about protecting the environment, *the most important thing that you can do is stop eating meat, eggs, and dairy foods.*

Same group I believe.

http://www.peta.org/issues/animals-used ... l-warming/


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

bobclive22 said:


> > Well, I live in the UK and there, statistically job prospects, pay and education are worse for minorities than they are for white British people.
> 
> 
> Well Spandex, perhaps you should visit your local hospital or chemist and see which race appears to have many of the top jobs.
> Before you rant I am not racist just stating a fact, also have a look at who owns most of the corner shops and petrol stations, seems the minorities are doing just fine.


I'm not sure you're actually being serious. Obviously there are racial minorities in good jobs, and there are racial minorities that own shops. But how you think this disproves that statistically those minorities are likely to have worse pay, job prospects and education. You do understand that this is not something you could see simply by observing it yourself? Seeing people from a minority in well paid jobs doesn't prove that they are *equally likely to get* well paid jobs. Only examining the data can show this sort of trend.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

Gray79 said:


> So automatically when minorities are talked about you assume their race, you don't have to have a different skin colour to be a minority!
> 
> I live in the UK too, and as I said being a minority does not change your job prospects, pay or education! Unfortunately skin colour or sex could, but I didn't see that as being relevant to this debate.


I didn't have to assume anything - I was the one who made the comment and I was talking about racial minorities.

As for its relevance to this debate, did you read the article John linked to? It specifically singled out Hindus, Jains and Sikhs (admittedly these are religions, but let's not split hairs) which is why I was talking about them.


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## Shug750S (Feb 6, 2012)

Here's a different take on the minority question:

Why when I eat in a steakhouse is there always a vegetarian option on the menu, but if I ask for the meat option in a vegetarian restaurant do they get upset?


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## Gray79 (Feb 10, 2017)

Spandex said:


> Gray79 said:
> 
> 
> > So automatically when minorities are talked about you assume their race, you don't have to have a different skin colour to be a minority!
> ...


You didn't make the original comment, the debate was originally about vegans not being happy about tallow in £5 notes. Bringing race into this is not at all relevant.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

Gray79 said:


> You didn't make the original comment, the debate was originally about vegans not being happy about tallow in £5 notes. Bringing race into this is not at all relevant.


No, the debate was about a link John posted which was certainly not just about vegans. You didn't read the link.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

Shug750S said:


> Here's a different take on the minority question:
> 
> Why when I eat in a steakhouse is there always a vegetarian option on the menu, but if I ask for the meat option in a vegetarian restaurant do they get upset?


I can't honestly picture a vegan restaurant 'getting upset' if you asked for meat. I imagine they'd simply point out it was a vegan restaurant and they don't serve meat. They might wonder about your literacy levels.

It's not really the double standards you're implying - a Chinese restaurant probably doesn't serve pizza. A curry house probably doesn't serve fish and chips. A steakhouse probably doesn't have a vegan option. A vegan restaurant probably doesn't do beef burgers.


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## Shug750S (Feb 6, 2012)

Think you missed the point there Spandy.

Pop into your local Harvester (marketed as a steakhouse) and they will always have a veggie option.

Never mentioned vegans either.

Only trying to lighten the tone.

Trying to show that 'minorities' are sometimes less tolerant than majorities (assuming more meat eaters than veggies in the U.K.) - as meat focussed places will offer a veggie option, but not the other way round.

Chill out mate.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

Shug750S said:


> Think you missed the point there Spandy.
> 
> Pop into your local Harvester (marketed as a steakhouse) and they will always have a veggie option.
> 
> ...


No, I got the point. What I didn't get was why you chose to illustrate your example with 'vegetarian' despite them having nothing to do with this discussion and them not being mentioned before. I'm going to assume you chose them because they are a much larger group and are much better represented in restaurants. Your example simply doesn't work with vegans (which is why I mentioned them in my reply) because very very few non-vegan restaurants serve vegan food.

But really, it's a terrible point anyway. 'Steakhouses' don't have an ideological reason to only serve steak. They're not being magnanimous by catering to a minority, they're just serving food that they think their customers want, within a vague theme. They also serve chips, despite chips not being a steak.

And thanks for your concern. I was clearly getting really un-chilled out before your thoughtful intervention :wink:


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## Shug750S (Feb 6, 2012)

Point was that sometimes 'majorities' do try and accommodate 'minorities' but not so often the other way round.

Didn't mean to turn it into the python "people's church of Judea" sketch.

:lol:


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

Shug750S said:


> Point was that sometimes 'majorities' do try and accommodate 'minorities' but not so often the other way round.
> 
> Didn't mean to turn it into the python "people's church of Judea" sketch.
> 
> :lol:


I don't think they really are 'accommodating minorities' though. They're just serving food which both vegetarians and non-vegetarians quite like eating.

Regardless, even ignoring the massive holes in the analogy, surely the real point is that minorities don't really need to go out of their way to accommodate the majority because (obviously) the majority is already very well catered for. And that was kind of my point all along. People like to complain that minorities (of all definitions) get 'special treatment' - but that's because without special treatment, they'd be massively under-served.

If a Jewish guy decided to open up a Kosher cornershop, it would seem a bit odd for him to worry about his customers ability to buy pork, when there are numerous other butchers and supermarkets selling pork. A normal supermarket, on the other hand, might realise there is nowhere to buy kosher products in town, and decide to sell them in order to gain a bit more business.

The kosher shop is unlikely to get passing trade stopping in to buy pork though, and a vegan restaurant is unlikely to get people calling in to buy a beef burger. So why sell them?


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

I think the whole point is to be able to apply a bit of empathy and accommodation and respect of people's beliefs and life style choices when designing a national currency that there is little choice in avoiding using and especially when it is not beyond the wit of man to use an alternative and have all citizens happy.

They put pretty pictures of national heros on bank notes to have people feel proud be British and identify with the country, its history, it's values of tolerance, and freedom to name two important relevant qualities.

Then after meeting with representatives of the interested parties and leaving them hopeful that they seem to have been taken seriously and an accommodation was to be reached, which at least could have been a compromise to use an alternative for future production, the answer that came back was, no.

The message this decision sends to many is that - we don't respect your opinions enough and you don't matter enough to us to be accommodated.

How inclusive is that? Not much. It only seems to encourage intolerance and disrespect of others which seems to be a symptom of the times :?


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## leopard (May 1, 2015)

No empathy needed,use the pound coins instead :roll:


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## Gray79 (Feb 10, 2017)

Spandex said:


> Gray79 said:
> 
> 
> > You didn't make the original comment, the debate was originally about vegans not being happy about tallow in £5 notes. Bringing race into this is not at all relevant.
> ...


I do not appreciate being told what I have and haven't done, I have and had infact read the link!

It appears to me by your comments to me and others you are just an argumentative person, who likes to be left wing just for the sake of an argument, for this reason I will no longer be commenting on this post.


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## bobclive22 (Apr 5, 2010)

> Seeing people from a minority in well paid jobs doesn't prove that they are equally likely to get well paid jobs. Only examining the data can show this sort of trend.


You made the statement, I gave you my observations.

Adults from ethnic minority backgrounds are more likely to be educated to a high standard than their white British peers, according to research.
Figures show they are significantly more likely to hold a degree and less likely to have no qualifications at all than their white counterparts.
People from the best-qualified group - Chinese - were around 75 per cent more likely to be university educated than those identified as white British.
The study by Manchester University also found that many ethnic minorities had seen bigger overall improvements in education standards over the last 20 years.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/ed ... ities.html

People from ethnic minorities are more likely to secure top professional jobs as doctors, lawyers and civil servants than those classified as white British, according to official figures.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... vants.html


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## bobclive22 (Apr 5, 2010)

> It appears to me by your comments to me and others you are just an argumentative person, who likes to be left wing just for the sake of an argument, for this reason I will no longer be commenting on this post.


Someone else has you figured Spandex.


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## ZephyR2 (Feb 20, 2013)

TBH anyone who feels uncomfortable handling the new fivers should really be thinking more about the meat products contamination that must be on virtually every banknote arising from people who have handled meat products before using a banknote.
If cocaine used only by a small number of the population can affect a large proportion of banknotes how much grease and fat must there be on them arising from the meat eating majority.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

bobclive22 said:


> You made the statement, I gave you my observations.
> 
> Adults from ethnic minority backgrounds are more likely to be educated to a high standard than their white British peers, according to research.
> Figures show they are significantly more likely to hold a degree and less likely to have no qualifications at all than their white counterparts.
> ...


Yes, you gave me your observations, which are just as statistically meaningless as my observations, given that no one person is capable of observing trends first hand, on a significant enough scale to make meaningful judgements. The info in those links, however, is much more interesting. It certainly seems that for some ethnic groups education has improved over the last few years (although that data does include immigrants educated overseas). I still stand by my comments regarding job opportunities and pay (which is what your observations actually related to - you didn't make any observations on education).


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

leopard said:


> No empathy needed,use the pound coins instead :roll:


You mean used surely? :wink:


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

Gray79 said:


> I do not appreciate being told what I have and haven't done, I have and had infact read the link!


So why did you think the discussion was only about vegans??


Gray79 said:


> It appears to me by your comments to me and others you are just an argumentative person, who likes to be left wing just for the sake of an argument


'Left wing for the sake of an argument'? :lol: Is being left wing now so controversial that people pretend to be just to have an argument?


Gray79 said:


> for this reason I will no longer be commenting on this post.


 [smiley=bigcry.gif]


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

ZephyR2 said:


> TBH anyone who feels uncomfortable handling the new fivers should really be thinking more about the meat products contamination that must be on virtually every banknote arising from people who have handled meat products before using a banknote.
> If cocaine used only by a small number of the population can affect a large proportion of banknotes how much grease and fat must there be on them arising from the meat eating majority.


It's undoubtedly true that many people don't wash their hands after going to the toilet either and I don't think we want to go there really but contamination is undoubtedly an issue and the amounts we are talking may not be dissimilar.

Animal products are all around us (less so as time goes by) but although you may decide as a practical measure that you'll be 90% true to your cause because the last 10% is too hard right now (e.g. a "vegetarian" still eating biscuits in the 1980's containing animal fat) and may only serve in the pursuit of perfection to cause you misery and make you become more likely to Jack it all in if too strict. Perhaps those who swayed in the wind and were not broken but stuck it out to maintain the pressure and influence can at least in part along with other societal changes be pleased to see vegetarian options on menus when there were none and see a healthier diet expectation all round now, reflecting the demand that they in part help promote. It's said that animal farming for meat production (as opposed to the more efficient direct crop to human consumption) causes more greenhouse gases than all transport combined, so perhaps there is a logic that still eludes the many for now. The traces of Tallow in bank notes are small and it's a by-product but every little helps to apply pressure if it's what you believe and religious convictions can be stronger still. Complaining that people don't wash their hands before handling money is not a as direct nor as powerful a political message against slaughter than objection to an admitted production ingredient with an alternative. So I can empathise why there is objection and why it's seen by many as an important issue. Myself? I'd rather not have tallow in back notes if it's easy enough to avoid.


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## stuff1 (Apr 20, 2015)

Put it this way.

They put a few traces of tallow in some bank notes, a minority ethnic group complains and because it is not immediatly changed, people like you OP, whine about it.

Yet there are a considerable greater number of vegans or vegaterians (I am not one before you ask) who complain about animals being bred and slaughtered just for their meat which people don't actually require....no one listens, nothing changes.

Do you have to be an ethnic minority to have your complaints listened to and acted upon?
It seems so.

We will have full shariah law in the UK soon because people are too PC and are scared to offend immigrants.

Just like the Police and government allowed 12 year old girls to be gangraped in Rotherham for a decade because they didn't want to offend the Pakistanis doing the raping, even the the point of arresting white Fathers who tried rescuing their children from said paedophile ring for trespassing.


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

I rest my case.


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