# BIG DILEMMA with a fellow TT Forum member...ADVICE REQUIRED!



## Shuttle X (Sep 25, 2004)

Hi Guys,

At the moment I am in a BIG dilemma with a fellow ******** member, and I would really like to ask everyoneâ€™s advice and opinions on the matter.....

The situation is that I advertised my Audi head unit and changer on the "for sale" section, In the end I only sold the changer to harv (Arvind) and after agreeing on knocking the price down I sold it to him instead of listing on ebay..... however the changer was still not removed from the car as my installer messed me about for over 2 weeks, Arvinds cheque cleared no probs and I still had not got the changer out, I did however get it out the following day and left it for my wife to post......I do alot of ebaying (Username auctionat99p Feedback 100%) She posted the changer to arvinds work address like he asked along with many other parcels by first class mail.......And Surprise surprise it was the only parcel not to reach its destination 

I have checked with the post office and it was defiantly sent, and I think arvind checked at his side and the people in his work........

The post office gave me a claim form but I donâ€™t think it will be any use as the parcel was not registered or anything......

So the situation now is arvind is left Â£135 out of pocket, if I refund him I end up completely out of pocket 

What do you all think :?:

PS. I hope that you dont mind this post Arvind, but i had to ask everyones opinion as i have never ever had this happen before......


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## D4RK_1 (Mar 29, 2003)

Shuttle X said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> I have checked with the post office and it was defiantly sent, and I think arvind checked at his side and the people in his work........
> 
> ...


From my point of view you have done your bit by sending the changer to the arranged address.

The only thing i think i strange is that you didnt send it recorded delivery? Was this an option turned down by the buyer? If so its tough luck for the buyer and not your problem.

If i was buying something i would make sure that it was sent via recorded delivery.

Maybe he has some disshonest work colleagues?

Mark


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## Multiprocess (Aug 9, 2004)

Yes for something on that value it should have been sent recorded on something!!


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## Shuttle X (Sep 25, 2004)

He never asked for it to be changer to be sent registered or anything and after knocking down the price I just thought it should be sent as normal.......It was stupid on my half but even if I had sent it Recorded it would only have been insured up to Â£25......Many things tend to go through your mind like the work colleagues etc, as I am sure must go through Arvinds.......


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## Wak (May 6, 2002)

Sorry, I dont agree that you are blameless, For Â£135 I think you should have forked out a few quid for registered post.

you cant prove you posted it as can he it wasnt delivered.

You at least you would protect yourself and wouldnt be in the situation you are in.

I do a lot of ebaying and recorded delivery is the minimum I use because Its about protectig me and my feedback not the buyer protecting their purchase.

OK hindsight is great,but so what next.

I had a recent problem with a parcel arriving going missing, needless to say some idiot not far from my house signed for it and promptly forgot to give it to me for 2 weeks hence me and the sender were quite irritated.

I have only ever had 1 ebay buyer not receive his parcel and it was recorded, Post office claimed it was signed for and delivered, it eventually turned up at the sorting office, they lied.

I would advise the buyer to check his neighbours as well and I mean the other offices next to his work as well as visit the sorting office.

:?


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## R6B TT (Feb 25, 2003)

That's why we send TTOC stuff worth over a Tenner 'Signed for' delivery now - we had a bunch of stuff missing in the post last year and felt obliged to replace it for the members. It doesn't cost that much for signed for.

It's your call mate - but you have his money and he has f*ck all. I'm not an expert on Contract law but morally - I'd feel obliged to refund or work something out with him


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## Shuttle X (Sep 25, 2004)

I have never ever claimed to be blameless, hence this post.......Would anybody know if i could even make the claim, I do have my original post office receipt.......

I do appreciate everyones opinion on this, thats why i am asking....What would everyone advise on "coming to an argeement?"


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## UK225 (May 12, 2002)

Shuttle X said:


> What would everyone advise on "coming to an argeement?"


If it was me I would give him his money back & learn from this experience.

As has been said already you need to protect yourself when posting goods.


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## Wak (May 6, 2002)

I didnt think you could claim for anything unless it was recorded or special delivery.

Just reading off some slips I have here....

Special as an initial Â£250 claim limit

recorded mentions 100 times 25p claim limit but covers itself with "does not cover money, jewelry or other items of value!" pretty much anything!

Royal Mail customer service is 0845 7 740 740 :?


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## t7 (Nov 2, 2002)

UK225 said:


> Shuttle X said:
> 
> 
> > What would everyone advise on "coming to an argeement?"
> ...


I'd agree.Unless registered mail was refused I think you morally have to bear the loss...


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## Shuttle X (Sep 25, 2004)

I may have left myself "wide open" but had he not keep knocking money off the original price maybe i would have sent it registered, I know if i buy anything i always offer extra money for registered........So the general opinion is i take the fall for it???? And nobody thinks it might have gone missing at the workplace?


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## Wak (May 6, 2002)

Shuttle X said:


> I may have left myself "wide open" but had he not keep knocking money off the original price maybe i would have sent it registered, I know if i buy anything i always offer extra money for registered........So the general opinion is i take the fall for it???? And nobody thinks it might have gone missing at the workplace?


I still think you should ask him to check more than his workplace, check the neighbouring offices and the local sorting office.

Does his work place have its own post room, depends on the size of company but I think it would be fair to ask him to make some further enquiries before offerring a refund.

When the PO lost my ebay parcel it took around 8 days to recover it, the guy made the effort to ask his neighbours until eventually getting to the post office..


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## sp3ctre (Dec 11, 2002)

may well have gone missing at the workplace, but if he checks that and still can't find it then unfortunately you will have to give him his money back... morally of course, and just hope he is honest enough to give you the money if it ever turns up.


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## Joegod (Aug 25, 2004)

Tricky....you didn't offer some form of insured delivery and he didn't ask for it either. With that kind of value involved, I think you've both made a costly mistake. Neither of you can prove your end ....you can't prove it was posted and he can't prove it wasn't delivered.

Recorded Delivery costs 65p for Â£28.00 of insuered value. Special Delivery offers more insured value from Â£500 up to Â£10,000. Someone mentioned 'Registered Delivery'......I don't know what it is?

This boils down to a MORAL dilema.....what you feel is right to rectify the situation. Perhaps a solution is to refund half the money and 'agree' that if it turns up, he pays back the other half? :?


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## ttstu (Nov 1, 2003)

Not sure about the moral view. If both entered into it in good faith both take the hit. 50/50. Live and learn.

Buyer beware.


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## ratty (May 18, 2004)

Shuttle X said:


> I may have left myself "wide open" but had he not keep knocking money off the original price maybe i would have sent it registered, I know if i buy anything i always offer extra money for registered........So the general opinion is i take the fall for it???? And nobody thinks it might have gone missing at the workplace?


If in doubt why not settle half way. This way you both share the cost / responsilbility.

BTW. did you not get proof of postage for the parcel. Although this does not give you any compenstion at least you can prove you completed your part of the deal by posting the item.


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## Multiprocess (Aug 9, 2004)

ttstu said:


> Not sure about the moral view. If both entered into it in good faith both take the hit. 50/50. Live and learn.
> 
> Buyer beware.


Yes I agree, 50/50! Seems the only fair way out.

It is a right pain in the arse!!


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## Alexander-John (Aug 5, 2004)

Bad luck m8 ....bit of a mess really :?

personally.....am a man of honour.......i'd refund the cheque as a good will gesture.....on the premise that te other guy honours the sale if it does turn up, and sends u another cheque. The post office are useless, and ur local one needs really nagging....ours had a backlog in the local distribution room....and just said put in a claim form (Â£250 of supplements).....so I told them to go and have a proper look....and refused to leave (was very polite - but it was an essential package)....and surprise, surprise they found it!!!

Put a bit pressure on and do the right thing if you mail ordered from the TTshop you wouldn't expect them to keep the money if you didn't receive the goods :?

take it easy dude - painful lesson....but hopefully your buyer will be honourable too :wink:


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## Nando (Feb 5, 2004)

Shuttle X said:


> I may have left myself "wide open" but had he not keep knocking money off the original price maybe i would have sent it registered, I know if i buy anything i always offer extra money for registered........So the general opinion is i take the fall for it???? And nobody thinks it might have gone missing at the workplace?


It sounds like in retaliation to the haggling you have decided not to send the radio registered - which you have admitted you would have done under normal circumstances. Not very sporting IMHO.

If you weren't happy with the price, you should have rejected it. After all, something is only worth what someone is prepared to pay :?

If I was in your situation I would refund Harv.

Surely saving a few pounds on postage isn't worth this hassle


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

I have sold original front bumper, rear valance and boot spoiler on here. Bumper and valance I handed over to the buyers in person; I received cash for one item, a cheque for the other. That cheque was posted to me well before I handed over the bumper, but I only cashed it after I handed over the goods.
The boot spoiler I left at a very trustworthy location (known to most people on here) for the buyer to pick up. He then sent me a cheque after he picked up the spoiler.

I guess in this sort of "business" there is always a bit of trust involved and I was prepared to carry the can.

In your case you should not have banked the cheque until the buyer had received the good(s).
If I was in your shoes I would refund the money and be  for even asking what to do.


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## justtin (May 6, 2002)

should have sent recorded..... if you weren't willing to take the loss then sell elsewhere.

what would you do if 'the shoe was on the other foot' ?

Justin


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## boggie (May 8, 2002)

Bad situation but must say that I would refund, it is the honourable thing to do IMO. Big mistake not to send it recorded or special but I guess you know that now.


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## ronin (Sep 6, 2003)

Personally if the guy had haggled me down i would have agreed the price and then told him it would be "X" for recorded delivery on top.
But in this instance 50/50 is fair - you both lose equally.
Call it a tie :wink:


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## stephengreen (May 6, 2002)

You accepted and banked the cheque. The contract was made. To fulfil your part of the contract he had to receive the goods. The fact you cant prove he did, because your a tight arse (through indignation that he got a good deal no doubt) isnt his fault. Send the guy his money back, Â£135 is a small price to pay for your integrity but a high one for becoming a complete tw*t


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## len.faria (Jul 7, 2004)

In a nut shell....You took the money..... You didnt deliver the goods....So give back the money......... then claim on your house insurance under the accidental loss damage section.
case closed.
All stand.
Next.


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

Agree with the majority view that the cash should be returned asap.

When I've sold things on this forum, I've always asked if the buyers wants it registered or normal as I'll add the appropriate cost. If it then goes missing then they're either covered or tough luck.

Pay the cash and don't expose yourself to the risk next time. :?


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## Pammy (Nov 10, 2003)

FWIW - I agree with the view that the agreed price is irrelevant in regards to the method of postage you would have used had he paid full whack.

Postage is always added on top of things on ebay - unless it's free, and you say you are a significant ebay seller. This is no different to having sold it by ebay. Would you refuse to refund someone from ebay who did not receive their goods?

I'm sure you feel pi**ed off by this - but reckon you should look at is as just another ebay sale and refund the money.

I also don't think it was fair raising this in this public area and naming the individual concerned without having his prior permission. You should have asked the mod's of the forum privately for this advice.


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## jimfew (Mar 5, 2004)

IMHO, this is the situation:-

In law, until the buyer receives the goods, they are your responsibility. You choose how to send them. If you send a parcel first class, you have all the responsibility and liability until the buyer has it in his mitts. Even then, if it's not of "marketable quality" or damaged in transit you are still liable.

Recorded delivery does not protect against this liability, it just makes sure that a dishonest customer cannot actually receive the item but lie and claim he did not to get his money back.

Registered delivery is just a form of insurance for you to recover the money if the item goes missing or gets damaged.

So, the upshot is, the liability is the senders, even though you have the buyers money. You can either cover the liability yourself or insure against it but it costs more money.

You must return the money in full and take the hit yourself. If the buyer wishes to be reasonable and split the loss 50:50, that's up to him but he does not need to. In fact, you should not really offer this alternative as it could be seen as "commercial coersion".

So, next time it's registered post to avoid this loss in future.

Jim.


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## pas_55 (May 9, 2002)

stephengreen said:


> You accepted and banked the cheque. The contract was made. To fulfil your part of the contract he had to receive the goods. The fact you cant prove he did, because your a tight arse (through indignation that he got a good deal no doubt) isnt his fault. Send the guy his money back, Â£135 is a small price to pay for your integrity but a high one for becoming a complete tw*t


Say's it all.If as you say you sell on e-bay you know the score,pay the man his money


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## jonah (Aug 17, 2002)

I'm with the majority here, I've sometimes even posted goods out b4 recieving any payment and always recorded with insurance at a 50/50 cost to buyer and myself. 
Jonah


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## Antwerpman (Nov 4, 2002)

It seems you have the answer - pay the man and learn for next time. I dont think that 50:50 is fair as he has upheld his part of the bargain (and trusted you) by delivering the cash to you. Unfortunately you have no evidence that you have done the same.

Bad Luck Mate, but I am sure if he was the kind of person who wanted to rip you off you would have tried to avoid paying the cash in the first place


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## Shuttle X (Sep 25, 2004)

Many thanks to all those who gave there advice on this matter, as for the cheeky B&*TARDS who called me a tight arse you can kiss my ARSE...

I asked you all for advice not to be insulted, Plus the changer was not posted by me, It was posted by my wife who posted many items that day and she thought she was doing the right thing by posting it first class (Â£12)instead of parcel force (Â£7)

Truth is I have not heard from him in days and he had both my home & mobile numbers..... so I guess he must have got the changer after all.....Possibly through one of his work colleagues!!!!!!


Cheers 
Simon


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## jonah (Aug 17, 2002)

Shuttle X said:


> Many thanks to all those who gave there advice on this matter, as for the cheeky B&*TARDS who called me a tight arse you can kiss my ARSE...
> 
> I asked you all for advice not to be insulted, Plus the changer was not posted by me, It was posted by my wife who posted many items that day and she thought she was doing the right thing by posting it first class (Â£12)instead of parcel force (Â£7)
> 
> ...


Here's hoping  Not a nice situation for either of you


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

Shuttle X said:


> Many thanks to all those who gave there advice on this matter, as for the cheeky B&*TARDS who called me a tight arse you can kiss my ARSE...
> 
> I asked you all for advice not to be insulted, Plus the changer was not posted by me, It was posted by my wife who posted many items that day and she thought she was doing the right thing by posting it first class (Â£12)instead of parcel force (Â£7)
> 
> ...


Or he may be really upset that his name was mentioned on here :?


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## Harv (May 12, 2004)

Hi Guys,

No Posts as my sister got engaged this weekend, so been busy organising stuff for a few days, So some good news at least 

Unfortunately, No Changer has turned up 

And as im sure many of you do, i sent the cash to Simon in good faith, and it was cashed as such, and im not doubting for an instant that he sent it out, most of the people that i have encountered on the forum seem to be honest and trustworthy, which is why the transaction happened.

I don't mind him putting the post up as in the end of the day this is a forum and as such a discussion between Adults, and brings into play some important points.

When the price was agreed, i presumed the changer would be sent by courier, which was the first question i asked Simon when it hadn't arrived, if he could check via the tracking id or chase the couriers to find out if it was still in a local depot. In addition i assumed (prob an error on my part) that this would be sent by registered post/courier as it was a high value item.

The address the changer was sent to was my Fathers business address, he is always there and receives lots of mail/parcels on my behalf and he definitely hasn't received the changer.

So in a nutshell im out of pocket to the tune of Â£135, to what i see as no fault of my own, also unfair as it may seem, if you didn't like the price you shouldn't have agreed to it :?

I'm a fair guy, but i sent the cash a month ago now, and its not a nice situation to be in for Simon either, but it comes down to what you believe the "fair" thing to do is, open to individual interpretation

Thanks for everyones comments btw

Its an intrestiing mixture of thoughts and perspectives

Cheers


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## Kell (May 28, 2002)

I've only sold a couple of things to people via the forum and in all cases, I've made sure they got the goods before I banked their cheques.

I would go with the majority and say that if you were a shop, then Harv wouldn't be expected to pay for goods he didn't receive. Likewise, they would take steps to ensure that any goods they send out are insured.

To me, this is in no way the fault of the buyer and totally down to the seller. If he gave you money one week and expected goods the next, then regardless of whether you dend them or drive them there yourself, your obligation is to ensure he gets them - especially if you've banked the cash.

We do a fair few promotions through work and like we always say in the Terms and Conditions: Proof of posting is not proof of receipt.

I think you should refund all his money and then persue your own line of enquiry with the PO.


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