# 4WD TT in the snow?



## ttstuff (Mar 6, 2009)

Hi All,

What are peoples experience of the TT 4wd in the snow? 
It can be sometimes disconcerting when the back end just suddenly kicks out! Is this because of the front wheel drive bias?

Dan


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## TurboTTS (Sep 11, 2009)

ive not had that problem...

but then again, im not this women, and i know how to drive a car.... 

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=160659

i must say, i am pleased to have gotten my TTS before the weather hit...


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

Is it not because the system has pushed all the power to the back and the rear wheels are kicking you out.
(same as with a RWD car)


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## TTRTWO (Dec 9, 2006)

Its the Haldex clutch. The front loses traction so torque is sent to the back but if you are pushy with the throttle, the back end will not cope and will step out. FWIW bigger Audis' with Torsen differentials have less of a problem here as they have 50% or 60% of the torque permanently applied to the back end.

In the snow Haldex is still better than FWD and is way way better than RWD but it is not as good as Torsen. In the rain you do not really notice the 'cheap' quattro that the A3/TT use but in the snow it is apparent. Go easy on the gas but enjoy passing those Beemers!


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## mailrush (Nov 20, 2009)

TTRTWO said:


> Its the Haldex clutch. The front loses traction so torque is sent to the back but if you are pushy with the throttle, the back end will not cope and will step out. FWIW bigger Audis' with Torsen differentials have less of a problem here as they have 50% or 60% of the torque permanently applied to the back end.
> 
> In the snow Haldex is still better than FWD and is way way better than RWD but it is not as good as Torsen. In the rain you do not really notice the 'cheap' quattro that the A3/TT use but in the snow it is apparent. Go easy on the gas but enjoy passing those Beemers!


I had a bit of a debate with someone on here yesterday because they thought id made a mistake not going for the quattro.

Do you really not think it makes that much difference in the rain/wet? Im not really too concerned about the snow as its only a few days of the year and I dont have to drive on those days


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

Made a mistake :lol: 
its a choice - but you are wrong 

Makes a difference in lots of conditions, the system works like a very advanced TC and moves the power based on needs.


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## mailrush (Nov 20, 2009)

Toshiba said:


> Made a mistake :lol:
> its a choice - but you are wrong
> 
> Makes a difference in lots of conditions, the system works like a very advanced TC and moves the power based on needs.


meeehhhhhhhhhh. i still stick by my decision - i had to draw the line somewhere and didnt feel i needed it. I dont regret it :?

Listen, it will still be a big step up from the Mini and sometimes its fun to kick the back out a little. nuff said :wink:


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## Cairomac (Nov 19, 2008)

Listen, it will still be a big step up from the Mini and sometimes its fun to kick the back out a little. nuff said :wink:[/quote]

You can still kick out the back with the q, just find a nice bit of slippery stuff, boot it and the power transfers to the back .... hey presto ... rear wheel drive kick out ( ...... but with a bit more control .....  )

To answer the first question. As many threads have stated, it performs superbly, as long as you have winter tyres. I've lost count of the stranded BMW's and Mercs I have cruised past in Stavanger this winter, I'm sure Arne see's the same in Oslo .... if he can find find his car in the snow, or have the desire to take it out in -25 deg C !


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## Cobnut (Sep 21, 2009)

Have access to a lovely wide open empty carpark. Have tried breaking the front/rear away with ESP and ASR on and off.
The worst the car would do with everything on was cut power and drift out with a bit of understeer. With ESP and ASR off it is quite possible to drift off anywhere given the current weather conditions.

See a thread in the KB about TT on ICE for great top tips :wink:

The quattro has been my workhorse over the last few weeks "It reaches parts other cars can't"

Funnily enough the only time it occassionaly refuses to move without rocking is when reversing in the soft stuff :?:


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## ttstuff (Mar 6, 2009)

Thanks for the advice and


TTRTWO said:


> Go easy on the gas but enjoy passing those Beemers!


 8) 8)


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## LEO-RS (Apr 13, 2009)

It's excellent in getting you going and it will easily haul you up a hill to the frustration of all those spinning their wheels in their Front or rear wheeled drive cars.

Stopping is another matter though and there are no additional benefits.


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## LEO-RS (Apr 13, 2009)

mailrush said:


> I had a bit of a debate with someone on here yesterday because they thought id made a mistake not going for the quattro.
> 
> Do you really not think it makes that much difference in the rain/wet? Im not really too concerned about the snow as its only a few days of the year and I dont have to drive on those days


In the rain and damp conditions, the difference is like night and day. Try planting your foot in 1st when its lashing down, and you'll end up in the nearest field with front or rear wheel drive. Try it in a 4wd car, and off you go as normal 



mailrush said:


> meeehhhhhhhhhh. i still stick by my decision - i had to draw the line somewhere and didnt feel i needed it. I dont regret it :?
> 
> Listen, it will still be a big step up from the Mini and sometimes its fun to kick the back out a little. nuff said :wink:


You will when you pick your car up and you cant use 1st, 2nd or 3rd at full throttle on anything but a bone dry road :wink:


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## mailrush (Nov 20, 2009)

Mitchy said:


> You will when you pick your car up and you cant use 1st, 2nd or 3rd at full throttle on anything but a bone dry road :wink:


Its not that bad! I had my 3rd TT test drive in the rain and it was ok.

Didnt anybody tell you?? In North West London it never rains! In fact its always sunny, never wet, never damp, never oily, never frosty and never snowy!! - its always a steady 20 degrees C. :lol:

Anyways, what do all the Z4, Cayman, 1 series, SLK, 370z etc. owners do wihtout 4WD? They all manage ok with "normal driving". It means ill have to drive normally most of the time (like normal people) and look forward and get excited by driving quickly as opposed to hammering it everywhere. :wink:


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## LEO-RS (Apr 13, 2009)

Now you are talking RWD which has many advantages over FWD.

Saying that, still useless in the snow. Boss was stranded in his maserati last night, had to give him a lift home :lol:


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## drjam (Apr 7, 2006)

Mitchy said:


> mailrush said:
> 
> 
> > Do you really not think it makes that much difference in the rain/wet? Im not really too concerned about the snow as its only a few days of the year and I dont have to drive on those days
> ...


No need to regret it IMHO. 
I alternate between driving TT (with quattro) and Elise (supposedly RWD nightmare) and, unless you drive like a fool in the wet (I'm assuming road driving with all its issues of stopping distances, limited visibility etc.) you can get around fine in either. Sure if you go round planting a big lead boot on the throttle in first when its lashing down, you'll spin up 2wd quicker. But unless you're into racing at the lights ... er... why would you? Just learn a bit of throttle control.
In the snow there's a huge difference of course but, as you say, if you live somewhere where that's only a few days a year it needn't be an issue. 
Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking quattro - and glad we've got it at the moment - or saying 2wd is on the limit as fast in the wet, but its perfectly possible to manage without.


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## tianga (Nov 12, 2009)

Mitchy said:


> In the rain and damp conditions, the difference is like night and day. Try planting your foot in 1st when its lashing down, and you'll end up in the nearest field with front or rear wheel drive. Try it in a 4wd car, and off you go as normal
> 
> :





Mitchy said:


> Stopping is another matter though and there are no additional benefits.


Either way you end up in the nearest field :?


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## brice1ie (Jun 6, 2009)

Well ive been working in Hamburg up to xmas... and I can tell you that the 4WD DOES def make a difference in snow... not icy conditions (nothin would grip), snow.. ive driven my lexus in mere slush in the UK and boy did it slide... was like skiing.... had none of that with the TTS!!

was up in andorra last weekend and have no snowchains and while others were spinning going up the mountain road.. with abit of throttle control the TTS went up smooth and without any hairy moments... was well pleased and would def buy a 4wd again!!


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## mailrush (Nov 20, 2009)

Mitchy said:


> In the rain and damp conditions, the difference is like night and day. Try planting your foot in 1st when its lashing down, and you'll end up in the nearest field with front or rear wheel drive. Try it in a 4wd car, and off you go as normal


Why would you plant it in 1st gear anyway? Even in the mini i get wheel spin in 1st and 2nd when planting it in the wet...


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## Sticks (Sep 3, 2008)

Slightly off topic but http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUfXMTEt ... re=related


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## dbm (Apr 17, 2008)

mailrush said:


> Why would you plant it in 1st gear anyway?


Because you can? :twisted:

Cheers,
Dan


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## mailrush (Nov 20, 2009)

dbm said:


> mailrush said:
> 
> 
> > Why would you plant it in 1st gear anyway?
> ...


haha. ok good point.

On this 4wd subject take a look at my lil story in this post - even the next car to come in (4WD Mitsibishi Shogun) couldnt get up! http://www.********.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=159653&start=60


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## mikef4uk (Jan 15, 2006)

Mitchy said:


> Now you are talking RWD which has many advantages over FWD.
> 
> ,


Not in all conditions, lad from work needed to leave his 08 plate BMW 320 (I think) estate about a mile from his house due to the slight hill. He was trying to ring his wife to tell her to do the same when she drove up the path in her Mazda 2 :lol: :lol:


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## mikef4uk (Jan 15, 2006)

mailrush said:


> Do you really not think it makes that much difference in the rain/wet? Im not really too concerned about the snow as its only a few days of the year and I dont have to drive on those days


Really depends on how sporty/aggressive you drive, when I bought the A3 2.0T I tried both, even in the dry it is all too easy to spin the inside wheel of a 2WD A3/TT around any roundabout, it just doesn't happen with the 4WD.

I would think the 0-100kph time in my car would be very similar between wet and dry conditions, it has to be sampled to be appreciated


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## Strief (Aug 25, 2009)

It's my first winter in a TT fwd roadster (I'm in Toronto, Canada) and I've had it out in some pretty awful slush, rain, and snow so far.

My impressions:

If I was ordering a new car, I'd get Quattro without hesitation.

Winter tires make a huge difference. I'm able to drive pretty confidently in the snow and muck with FWD + winters. I still drive fairly carefully, but I'd do that in a Quattro too.

In my case, I got an amazing deal on a FWD roadster that was on a dealer showroom floor. It was new, but discounted about 25% off the sticker price. So, in that respect, I have no regrets getting a FWD, and I'd advise any getting a spectacular deal on a FWD not to worry about it that much (especially if you are used to FWD driving).


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## dbm (Apr 17, 2008)

mikef4uk said:


> Really depends on how sporty/aggressive you drive, when I bought the A3 2.0T I tried both, even in the dry it is all too easy to spin the inside wheel of a 2WD A3/TT around any roundabout, it just doesn't happen with the 4WD.


I would echo that whole heartedly. I had a FWD TT for a few days whilst my TTS was in the body shop following a rear-end tap. There is a side street near my house, and turning left out of there in the TT under about half throttle resulted in wheelspin and the TC light coming on, where as I regularly dart out of that junction in my TTS without any drama.

Cheers,
Dan


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## Arne (Dec 13, 2006)

One of the negative comments that has been made regarding the 1. and 2. gen haldex quattro (which is found in the TT 3.2), was that the power transfere was a bit late - and when it came (after experienced understeer and front wheelspin), it came rather abrupt causing an oversteer - which makes it hard to control.

The power distribution with the 4. gen Haldex happens a lot sooner (before the front looses traction), and feels a lot smoother - so you do not get the same understeer first, and not so much oversteer afterwords - which makes it a lot easier to control, also if you want to drift :wink:


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## TTRTWO (Dec 9, 2006)

Owning a 3.2 TT I understand what you are saying but in my experience it is only an issue in the snow. Perhaps I am not pushing that hard though. :?

Anyway, what generation Haldex does the current S3 have? Thanks


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## Arne (Dec 13, 2006)

I would think that it is only when traction is rather poor that you will notice it most easily.

Not realy shure about the current S3, but I would think that is has 4. gen? All MY10 TT has got 4. gen (also the 2.0 T quattro). The TTS was the first Audi with 4. gen, and all TTS's has it.


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## Gemini (Apr 26, 2009)

I've been out driving this morning and am very impressed by the grip and stability of the TT. I drove through compacted snow, loose snow and ice on standard tyres and not once lost confidence in the ability of the car to stay on the road. In fact I was confident enough to overtake quite a number of cars poodling along at 15-20mph. In my opinion having driven lots of front and rear wheel drive cars in the past, the quattro system is great in the dry, an absolute pleasure in the wet and fantastic in snow / ice. Never before have I been able to floor the accelerator from a standing start on a snow covered road and move off at the speed I did today. Quattro - I love it


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## ScoobyTT (Aug 24, 2009)

As someone said, stopping is another matter though, and it makes no difference there. I was driving today, at a modest speed because I don't want to damage my car, approaching a gentle corner and had to slow down for an oncoming car getting around an obstacle. I'd tried the surface earlier on the road and it was fine but this patch looked the same but behaved very differently. The _slightest _ brake pressure sent the ABS into a fit, so effectively I no real stopping power at all. Thankfully the other driver didn't overreact to the oncoming doom, carried on, and fortunately passed as my TT just kept on going because I had no means of achieving a stop in time. All I could do was keep all actions gentle, and hope for the best. Not nice at all :?


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## Gemini (Apr 26, 2009)

> As someone said, stopping is another matter though, and it makes no difference there.


What works for me when the ABS is struggling is to put the gearbox into sport mode so I have more control over changing up / down, look well ahead and use the gears to do most of the breaking. Much of the time only a very light touch on the brakes is required to finally stop the car. I don't know about the physics but surely 4 wheel engine braking is better than two - stops one end of the car trying to overtake the over?


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## Arne (Dec 13, 2006)

But does anyone know how much of the engine brake that is actually transfered to the rear wheels on a Haldex quattro?


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## ScoobyTT (Aug 24, 2009)

Good point Arne. Does Haldex keep the rear wheels in whatever drive state they were in if you're braking, or engage/adapt under braking?

Gemini, I have manual gears, but I know what you mean. Ordinarily I do use the gears to help slowing down, but on this occasion I didn't have the chance. The speed was low anyway and with the oncoming car my focus shifted to going for making the best of the steering to try and stay out of the way and keep directional control. I still breathed a big sigh of relief though


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## mikef4uk (Jan 15, 2006)

ScoobyTT said:


> Good point Arne. Does Haldex keep the rear wheels in whatever drive state they were in if you're braking, or engage/adapt under braking?


It releases the Haldex if it needs to, needs would be ABS kicking in, ESP working, or handbrake application


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## Arne (Dec 13, 2006)

mikef4uk said:


> ScoobyTT said:
> 
> 
> > Good point Arne. Does Haldex keep the rear wheels in whatever drive state they were in if you're braking, or engage/adapt under braking?
> ...


But what happens if no brakes are applied (except for engine braking), or brakes are applied and froont wheels starts sliding/ABS kicks in - AND the engine brakes are working (which is pretty normal if it is very slippery and you go downhill and you use the engine brakes)....?

What is the engine brake distribution between front and rear wheels then? It does not "need" to release the haldex (whatever that actually means...). What it needs to do is to help distribute the engine brake to all 4 wheels without loosing controll of the stering....

But does it do that?


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## TTRTWO (Dec 9, 2006)

Arne said:


> I would think that it is only when traction is rather poor that you will notice it most easily.
> 
> Not realy shure about the current S3, but I would think that is has 4. gen? All MY10 TT has got 4. gen (also the 2.0 T quattro). The TTS was the first Audi with 4. gen, and all TTS's has it.


Cheers. I wonder if the new Golf R has version 4 as well?


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2010)

mailrush said:


> Toshiba said:
> 
> 
> > Made a mistake :lol:
> ...


You do know you have a front wheel drive car right?


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## mailrush (Nov 20, 2009)

manphibian said:


> mailrush said:
> 
> 
> > Toshiba said:
> ...


 :lol:

of course...whats your point?? Do YOU struggle kicking the back end out in a FWD car? :roll:


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## 675triple (Apr 30, 2009)

Mitchy said:


> Stopping is another matter though and there are no additional benefits.


Correct. I found that out when I hit a gate after skidding on ice in a car park last week [smiley=bigcry.gif]


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## Black Knight (Jan 16, 2007)

TTRTWO said:


> Its the Haldex clutch. The front loses traction so torque is sent to the back but if you are pushy with the throttle, the back end will not cope and will step out. FWIW bigger Audis' with Torsen differentials have less of a problem here as they have 50% or 60% of the torque permanently applied to the back end.
> 
> In the snow Haldex is still better than FWD and is way way better than RWD but it is not as good as Torsen. In the rain you do not really notice the 'cheap' quattro that the A3/TT use but in the snow it is apparent. Go easy on the gas but enjoy passing those Beemers!


i would disagree. while torsen does seem to act perhaps a little safer than haldex, for true enthusiasts haldex is better in snow/gravel. simply there's nothing better than a locked central diff on loose surfaces... yes, the back end may step out easier or sooner than with torsen... but the way to drive on loose surfaces is going sideways half the time and for that haldex or any similar drivetrain is actually better.

still when you spin up all 4 wheels, the front wheels can steer, and even though all 4 wheels are spinning the front manage to pull into a direction while the rears always just point straight - this causes the oversteer... it's not that rear wheels cant cope, all 4 wheels cant cope - they're all spinning up - but as the fronts are pointing into a direction they manage to pull into that direction while spinning up... it's normal quattro behavior...


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## Black Knight (Jan 16, 2007)

Arne said:


> But does anyone know how much of the engine brake that is actually transfered to the rear wheels on a Haldex quattro?


i would say none or miniscule amount


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## mikef4uk (Jan 15, 2006)

Arne said:


> mikef4uk said:
> 
> 
> > ScoobyTT said:
> ...


Yes, just think about it logically, for the ABS to work it needs to recognise a locked wheel (sometimes long before it does lock) and in the ESP mode it needs to brake a wheel here and there to regain the cars composure, having the Haldex engaged is going to fight against the ABS/ESP, so it releases it.(the handbrake also disengages the Haldex)

I looked into this quite heavily when we 4WD'd my lads Golf mk2 with a 'manual/electronic' controller as the kit was for all Haldex vehicles and had all kinds of inputs for different vehicles to allow the ABS/ESP to work etc.


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## Arne (Dec 13, 2006)

mikef4uk said:


> Arne said:
> 
> 
> > mikef4uk said:
> ...


Ok - I see what you mean, but......

If you have S-tronic and use the engine brake (and nothing else) and the front wheels starts sliding - does the system release the S-tronic cluch?

Or what does the system do in that kind of situation to help provide controll/steering capabilities? One thing that would help is to let the Haldex also put engine brake on the rear wheels....


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## mikef4uk (Jan 15, 2006)

No, I doubt it releases the STronic clutch, just the Haldex so the front and rear wheel speeds can 'differentiate'

It doesn't release the Haldex for engine brake alone, this is why they slow down better in snowy conditions, it's all a bit of a Black art and I doubt the company I was dealing with know the full in and outs of every Haldex situation


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## Arne (Dec 13, 2006)

Would have been fun to try it out in a steep and icy slope - where there are no problems if you can't stop at the end of the slope.... :wink:


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