# What car



## Carlos (May 6, 2002)

What car offers the best compromise of

Comfort - ability to do 10 hours+ journeys
Practicality - spacious, big boot
Performance - ability to overtake slower traffic, fairly keen dynamics
Economy - must average 35mpg ish
Luxury - nice place to be

I'm thinking Merc E320 CDI estate.

You?


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

Carl, what about the BMW E60 Tourings??

Many engine choices with both petrol & diesel, with the pick of the crop being the 535d (in M-Sport trim).

It would certainly satisfy your 5 requirements & the 535d would trounce many cars in the performance stakes.


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## raven (May 7, 2002)

Actually, my current car fulfils all these requirements, perhaps apart from the economy - it's a 12 year old Volvo 960 - plus the added bonus that it doesn't depreciate. 

But yeah, if you're dead set on something new, I guess the Merc you mention does the job, or a diesel 5 series on non run flats / diesel A6 estate.


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## Carlos (May 6, 2002)

How comfortable is the M Sport suspension?

I agree with you, but I know the sport-suspended Beemers are not known to be among the smoothest in the comfort stakes.


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## ag (Sep 12, 2002)

The Merc is more prestigeous and better built, with a storming engine (320CDi).

The 5 Series has an awesome blend of handling and ride and is slightly roomier. Their engines aren't bad either!

Looks is an aquired taste.

BMW I-Drive is poor.

Merc Command is good.


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## ag (Sep 12, 2002)

Carlos said:


> How comfortable is the M Sport suspension?
> 
> I agree with you, but I know the sport-suspended Beemers are not known to be among the smoothest in the comfort stakes.


M-Sport is not bad at all, coupled with BMW Comfort Seats it is a very comfortable place to be. Rear suspension on 5-Series Estates is rather jiggly though and not to be recommended.


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## Carlos (May 6, 2002)

I'd put the E class ahead because I don't like the looks of the 5 Series unless it's a Sport, but I'm doubtful about the comfort of the M Sport suspension.

I think I prefer the exterior of the E class, but the interior of the 5 series.


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## ag (Sep 12, 2002)

Carlos said:


> I'd put the E class ahead because I don't like the looks of the 5 Series unless it's a Sport, but I'm doubtful about the comfort of the M Sport suspension.
> 
> I think I prefer the exterior of the E class, but the interior of the 5 series.


Both are very good cars but, frankly, aren't very inspiring otherwise. A wealth of toys doesn't mask the fact that they are both rather unimaginative (Merc) or ergonomically retarded (BMW). There is a lack of the "surprise-and-delight" features that would elevate them above the merely humdrum. It is an extremely conservative sector. And a very expensive one.

I'd rather have a slightly more interesting and engaging (and enevitably cheaper) car and suffer a little more from a (slight) lack of refinement.

Says the bloke with a 5-Series M-Sport!


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## Kell (May 28, 2002)

Just to throw in a wild card - A6 3.0 TDi?

The new model with the 233PS engine is a stonker.

We're (still) debating what to get and have decided to move up a class from A4 or 3 series and go for a 5 series or A6.


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## Carlos (May 6, 2002)

A6 is definitely on the agenda to look at.

I have this idea that comfort = merc, style and firm suspension = audi.

This may be unfounded!

Maybe I am placing too much on the comfort angle, but in the near future I'm going to be facing 10 hour (each way) drives to the NW of Scotland, several times per year. It's 550 miles and I want to be able to do that on one tank.


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## gcp (Aug 8, 2002)

Carlos said:


> Performance - ability to overtake slower traffic, fairly keen dynamics


This line rules the E320, not exactly a drivers car though OK in a wafting sort of way.

I found the 5 series more spacious than E class for rear seat passengers when the driver is 6' 2" +

I'd take a 525 or 530d, maybe a 535d, depends on the budget.

A6 wagon though pleasant enough place to be would not get a look in.


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## Carlos (May 6, 2002)

That's why I put "fairly keen" - motorway is the most important place, just don't want something too remote. I figured being RWD the Merc would be slightly good to drive, no?

The proof of the pudding will be in the driving!

Slight negative for the 5 series is that my next door neighbour has one.


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## raven (May 7, 2002)

OK, maybe not an older Volvo like mine, but what about some of the newer big Volvos? Second hand they are good value, are very comfortable, have nice gadgets (including some of the best car hifi out there), and are generally perceived to be reliable.


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## Carlos (May 6, 2002)

Yep, it's on the list.

I love Volvos (had a 97 V70R AWD last year). It's not top of the pops with me at the moment because it's about to be replaced and I'm concerned at the residuals over the next 6 months, one to watch. A new one is going to cost Â£35k properly specced and the reviews I've seen don't rate the 185bhp D5. This engine appears to be far behind the best that Audi, BMW and Merc can offer.

Ideally I'd like to have at least 200 bhp.


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

Just done Highlands and back in a V50 2.0d.

2=2 kids plus baby, with roof box, 500 miles each way. avge 58 mph, 38 mpg (roofbox knocks some off std mpg). Nice sound system. Focus chassis - so it handles OK. Quiet, comfy, well built. Not too big.

More than good enough. Would consider one for family use.

Although for 4 times a year I'd fly and hire a car. :wink:


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

ag said:


> The Merc is more prestigeous and better built, with a storming engine (320CDi).
> 
> The 5 Series has an awesome blend of handling and ride and is slightly roomier. Their engines aren't bad either!
> 
> ...


I'd argue that the 535d engine is better than any current Merc oilburner & the press to date have raved about the 3.0 Bimmer Twin Turbo & i concur. That said i've not owned a Merc so the E320 may be good, but i doubt better than the 535d (perhaps on a par with the 530d).

As for build quality & prestigeous, i'd say it's on a par with, but not better than, however for exclusivity around not seeing many, the Merc will defo win the prize & they do lok good.

M-Sport suspension is far from firm, just more balanced & lower riding than the regular suspension. As already said, if you mate M-Sport with the Comfort seats, then you're onto a winner. Although not quite the same distance hack, i often did a 410mile round trip in the car it it's sublimely comfortable.

As an aside & depending how you intend to fund the purchase, Audi are offering some amazing deals to prop up the A6 market, with these including huge discounts & very low Contract Hire/Purchase packages.

If it was my money i'd take the Bimmer, then Merc, then Audi & for me i'd never consider a Volvo (personal choice).


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## Carlos (May 6, 2002)

garyc said:


> Although for 4 times a year I'd fly and hire a car. :wink:


Generally I concur, the problem is it will always be school holidays. Wanted to fly in May, the flights were Â£900 for the 4 of us, Luton/Stansted to Inverness.

It's still about 6 hours door to door if you fly (it's about 1h 30m NW of Inverness) when you take into account the faffing at airports.

Â£900 flights plus another Â£250 to hire a car to save 4 hours in each direction...also I don't trust easyJet to run on time.

The other option is the train. It takes as long as driving but is a bit more relaxing for everyone. This can be done for Â£250 but you still need to hire a car, so Â£500 total.

All this versus two tanks of fuel in a suitably plush diesel estate.

What would you do Mr C?


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## ag (Sep 12, 2002)

You are going to hate me for saying this but if there are 4 of you I am guessing that two are sprogs. This being the case, the relative merits of different luxury cars are as good as irrelevant in comparison with the ear bashing the kids are going to give you. In my experience (my In-Laws live 670miles and one ferry crossing away, equaling an 11 to 13 hour trip) keeping the children happy is the only route to true karma. A people carrier with a DVD player kicks a prestige estate into the weeds. We went from Sharan to A4 to 5-Series. 5-Series is better than A4, Sharan makes 5-Series feel like a Fairground Waltzer.


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## Carlos (May 6, 2002)

What's the difference between an estate with a DVD player and a people carrier with a DVD player (apart from poorer dynamics and fuel economy).

You are on the button, rear DVDs are a must.


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## ag (Sep 12, 2002)

Carlos said:


> What's the difference between an estate with a DVD player and a people carrier with a DVD player (apart from poorer dynamics and fuel economy).
> 
> You are on the button, rear DVDs are a must.


Being able to see out the windows, legroom, general feeling of space. Believe me, there is a world of difference. I don't know how old your kids are, but under the age of 8 or 9 they really appreciate people carriers.

Totally agree about the downsides though. Upside is the fact that you never need to think twice before packing something or going to the tip or buying something or taking the in-laws out or going out for a meal with two sets of friends and taking one car. Space is the new horsepower!


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

Carlos said:


> garyc said:
> 
> 
> > Although for 4 times a year I'd fly and hire a car. :wink:
> ...


Move. :wink:

All the German options are more than fit for purpose. But do you want to spend that much?

If so, it's a used 530d M Touring (without run flats). 0r a late A6 s line 2.7/3.0tdi tdi - although this still has the old nose heavy A4 platform. Or a 320 cdi sport.

None of above look right without sport trim. All will cost more in dep'n than flights/car hire etc.

Or new Mondeo estate 2.2 tcdi in 6 months when dep'n has started to bite and when Ford need to shift some tin.

Or S max tcdi? - Still a bus tho.


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## raven (May 7, 2002)

W7 PMC said:


> i'd never consider a Volvo


Why does that not surprise me... :roll: Image is everything huh?

Friend of mine just bought a new Volvo XC90 and got a huge Â£7k off list and all the toys and DVD players for the kids in the back. He's just texted me to say how good the car was on a trip to Spain and back. I quite like the SUV option (a big reason for me being the up-yours to the tree huggers) but I know it's not everyone's bag.


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## Carlos (May 6, 2002)

I agree with you on being able to see out the windows, have to check that with their seats they can see out. Legroom isn't going to be an issue in a E class or 5 series I wouldn't think (it's not an issue now in the Golf). Boot space isn't likely to be a problem either (E class has the largest boot of any estate on sale).

We had a 7 seat touran and used the rear seats only once in 2 years of ownersip.


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## Carlos (May 6, 2002)

garyc said:


> If so, it's a used 530d M Touring (without run flats).


Is there such a beasty? Or do you mean just change the tyres...?


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

Carlos said:


> garyc said:
> 
> 
> > If so, it's a used 530d M Touring (without run flats).
> ...


Meant change the tyres.

Although the lack of a spare could severely slow up a longer journey...


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## slg (May 6, 2005)

Carlos said:


> A6 is definitely on the agenda to look at.
> 
> I have this idea that comfort = merc, style and firm suspension = audi.
> 
> ...


I had a similar dilemna 9 months ago (without the need for an estate though) and ended up going for the E280cdi Sport. Decent enough performance (can easily keep up with the TT on a run), loads of space, quiet, comfortable and IMO looks better inside than the 5 series. Recently travelled from home to East Midlands & back via Newcastle  , and then 3 more days driving before having to fill up - averaged approx 45 mpg that run.

I would agree with Paul that the 535d would be quicker than the E320 - I tried the 530d M Sport back to back with the E320 and there was nothing in it. The BMW felt more of a drivers car whereas the Merc drove you.

Good luck with your decision.


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## ag (Sep 12, 2002)

If you want an estate I would avoid the 5-Series. The ride, particularly in the rear, is poor. SE spec 5-Series is a dog. M-Sport only. A6 SE is better than 5-Series SE esp. in Estate form. A6 S-Line is harsh. If I wanted an estate I would take the Merc in Sport Spec.


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## Carlos (May 6, 2002)

garyc said:


> All the German options are more than fit for purpose. But do you want to spend that much?


You make a good point here.

Well specced 530d or E320 CDI can be had, two years old, approx Â£25k. The Merc is more expensive (Â£30k+) if you want the later 220hp engine and 7 speed auto. I imagine the older engine would be fine if you dangled one of those thingies off it :wink:

Realistically I'm not going to keep it longer than 2 years, what are they going to be worth after that?


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

raven said:


> W7 PMC said:
> 
> 
> > i'd never consider a Volvo
> ...


TBH, i should have been more specific in saying i'd never consider a Volvo Estate & yes it's likely an image thing. That said, i really like the XC90 & IIRC, their residuals are bulletproof.


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## Carlos (May 6, 2002)

I think they were originally, but not any more (hence the large discounts).


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

Carlos said:


> garyc said:
> 
> 
> > All the German options are more than fit for purpose. But do you want to spend that much?
> ...


Your guess is as good as mine - Â£20K ish ?

Not bad dep'n for a couple of years motoring.


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## HighTT (Feb 14, 2004)

Taken from a friend of mine's post about his E320 cdi on another marque's froum:-

_Just so that we can all feel better about our xxxxxxs, my Merc has cost me over Â£1200 this month alone - with about 10 faults. These include the MAF sensor, gearbox control board and brake switch (my 540 mile journey back from my holiday was at half power, with the gearbox occasionally refusing to change gear and with the ABS/stability control/brake assist lights blinking at me).

If that wasn't enough, it's having more rust done - the bootlid (for the 3rd time in the same place) and the doors seem to be the main areas.

It's difficult to understand quite how Mercedes managed to lose the plot so badly with these cars. And no, my car isn't a one-off. My father's, my friend's and Richard ******'s Mercs are all in a similar state.
_


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## Carlos (May 6, 2002)

HighTT said:


> Taken from a friend of mine's post about his E320 cdi on another marque's froum:-
> 
> _Just so that we can all feel better about our xxxxxxs, my Merc has cost me over Â£1200 this month alone - with about 10 faults. These include the MAF sensor, gearbox control board and brake switch (my 540 mile journey back from my holiday was at half power, with the gearbox occasionally refusing to change gear and with the ABS/stability control/brake assist lights blinking at me).
> 
> ...


so the current model (02-) E class suffers from corrosion?


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## Dotti (Mar 9, 2003)

Carlos said:


> What car offers the best compromise of
> 
> Comfort - ability to do 10 hours+ journeys
> Practicality - spacious, big boot
> ...


The new mondeo Titanium X


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## Carlos (May 6, 2002)

Dotti said:


> The new mondeo Titanium X


Yep good call. I have no issue with the badge, we ran a 02 Zetec estate as the family car for 3 years without any issues. I wonder if it will provide the same level of refinement as the prestige cars, I'll check it out.


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## Dotti (Mar 9, 2003)

Carlos said:


> Dotti said:
> 
> 
> > The new mondeo Titanium X
> ...


It's nice to know some people are just not phased by a badge . You won't be disappointed but probably quite suprised when you sit in one and the little extas you get that make a nice touch for such a conservative badge


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## Carlos (May 6, 2002)

I will certainly test the Mondeo. I wonder if the car will be hit by early depreciation. I see the Titanium X costs about Â£25k once you add a couple of extras, that sure is a lot of money for a Mondeo. Compare this with a 2 year old E320 CDI Avantgarde which costs the same. The Merc also has an extra 60 bhp...

I'd put money on the Merc losing substantially less cash over the next two years. If in 6 months it's possible to pick up a Mondeo with a good discount it will certainly be on the agenda.


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## BreTT (Oct 30, 2002)

My understanding is that the W210 suffered from corrosion. I've not seen any reports of corrosion on the W211.


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## jbell (May 15, 2006)

My parents have a Merc C270 CDi Avantguard Estate with all the toys, bought it second hand and it is an excellent car.

The only thing we changed were the wheels for a new AMG style in 17" (oroginal 16" wheels with baloon tyres) to give it better road holding, it worked without losing the comfort factor which they bought the car for in the first place.

Can't fault the Merc really and a good buy second hand. I drive it regularly to Bristol and back (200 mile round trip) and it returns 45-50 mpg at 80 with the cruise on.

The Mondeo looks a good buy and it is a great looking car but the top spec cars loose money so fast these days it is better to buy them a year old or ex-demo.

I am so impressed with the Merc I am considering a CLK 500 or 55 MAG next :twisted: :twisted:


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## ag (Sep 12, 2002)

The current E-Class is a brilliant car. My only real issue was the image and over familiarity as we have already had 3 in the close family. Most I see are driven by women or over 50s. This doesn't make it a bad car, simply not one that I in any way aspired to. Come to think of it nor was the 5-Series, I just wanted a cheapish 5 seater.


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## TJS (May 6, 2002)

I am running a 320cdi estate, purchased new and now 12 months old.

Its the latest model following an update last summer with increase in power and torque and lots of detail changes to overcome an increasingly poor reputation for quality related faults. It also has different front styling and revised suspension settings and the the latest 7 speed autobox which you can use manually. Tried to like the 5 series diesel touring but as already pointed out the ride on the run flats is harsh and the styling, inside and out, not to my taste.

The car was Â£46k on the road but you can get a Â£3k discount, Leather trim and the Merc Comand system will help resale. An absolute must are parking sensors if you parallel park. Options such as keyless entry, voice command and exotic trim etc are expensive and have minimal appeal to me.

The sportiness or driver involvement depends on the spec, Classic for comfort, Sport with lower suspension and large alloys and the Avantgarde which is in the middle in terms of dynamics. It hustles round corners reasonably well for a large estate car but really comes into its own of high speed motorway jouneys. In 7th gear at illegal speeds the engine shows 2000 rpm and still pulls strongly. Kick down the gears and it flies. Economy on a long high speed motorway journey is mid 30s. People also let you out at junctions ... unlike BMWs !!

I like it a lot and have no desire it change it ... other than the BMW I dont see a lot of competition. Its much better than the A6 (unless its been updated recently). The car is telling me it neeeds its first service in 1,100 miles which will be around the 17k mark, I think the service interval is "use sensitive"

One problem a month ago when 200 miles from home. I stopped at a dealer oop north when the car began to hiss under power to be told it was an intercooler failure. I was back on the road within 30 minutes in an SL500 and the E class transported home repaired and valeted 3 days later. No quibble, no fuss and an apologtic phone call from the supplying dealer a week later.

Its a class act, highly recommended.

TJS


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## Wondermikie (Apr 14, 2006)

Got the 7 speed auto on my car and it's great, much better than the 'box on the BMWs other than the 335i/335d/535d. Quite like the E class too.


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## Carlos (May 6, 2002)

Cheers TJS, good write up, thanks. On a long run, what's the range?

I think I'll be sticking to the used market at around the Â£25-27k market.


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## TJS (May 6, 2002)

Carlos,

I never monitor fuel consumption and price. I take the simplistic approach; Car needs fuel, fuel is largely a non negotiable commodity in terms of price, either you can afford to put it in the tank or you cant. If you cant afford the fuel you cant afford the car. I dont travel miles to save 5p a litre. When I need to refuel the next garage gets my business.

Stats from the trip computer as follows.

7,656 miles since last resent. 230 hours. av. 33 mph. av. 35 mpg. Mix of driving 50/50 urban and long distance.

The tank holds 80 litres which, with the long legged 7th gear, will give you a range of 800 miles on a long motorway journey at sensible (75 mph) motorway speed. The published extra urban figures (mid 40s mpg) suggests a range of 900 miles plus is possible. Probably bollocks.

Â£25k budget will not buy the 7 speed model (5 gears?) and manual cars are extremely rare. The 7th gear is very tall and drives economy on a long run. The auto box really does suit the engine which has a turbo power band from 2,000 rpm to 4,000 rpm. Its out of puff at 4,300rpm. Under hard acceleration in sport mode the gears changes stay within the power band giving seamless acceleration from zero to the 155 mph limiter. 0 to 100 kph quoted as 7.2 secs. Comfort mode means earlier change ups and move off in 2nd gear.

Its worth a test drive to compare 07 and early 06 models.


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## Carlos (May 6, 2002)

Yep, Â£25k buys you the older 204hp auto, not the new 7 speed 220hp model like yours.

Resources are finite. The more I spend on the car, the less fuel I will be able to afford. :wink:

I'd love to be able to afford a new one and not worry about the depreciation, but unfortunately I'm not in that position at the moment.


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## Carlos (May 6, 2002)

Just messing about pricing new cars up :roll:

I can't believe the discounts that are available through drivethedeal and such like. Taking similar cars, eg Audi A6 Le Mans 3.0 TDI quattro, BMW 530d M Sport, Merc E320 CDI Sport and speccing them with similar essentials (  ) like upgraded audio, colour sat nav, xenon lights, rear tints. According to drive the deal, through a uk dealer it's possible to get Â£4270 off the Audi, Â£6460 off the merc and a hardly believable Â£7650 off the BMW    Not far off 20% on the BMW ffs! Premium brand? :roll:

With these discounts, if you paid full price you've got to be looking at instant Â£10k depreciation.

Equally surprising to me is that similarly specced the BMW lists at over Â£5000 more expensive than the Audi. Discounted all three are within Â£2k of one another (Audi, Merc+Â£1k, BMW+Â£2k)


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## Neil (May 7, 2002)

Carlos said:


> a hardly believable Â£7650 off the BMW    Not far off 20% on the BMW ffs! Premium brand? :roll:


Last time I looked, DTD were quoting with a Â£1250 additional discount if you took BMW's (expensive) finance package. So you need to add back Â£1250 for a true "cash" quote. Still good discounts to be had.

Don't forget to try carfile, broadspeed, dealdrivers, coast2coast, etc.


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## Carlos (May 6, 2002)

Oh this is purely for idle Sunday afternoon entertainment :lol: :roll:

Here we go again!


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