# Drink-Driving - Hypothetically



## donna_kebab (May 8, 2002)

Just say Mr X was very very stupid, had loads and loads and loads of wobbly pop and then got in his car to drive home 8 miles from a club.

Got pulled over half-way home and ..... legged it, hiding in a garden, until the local constbulary got their dogs out from the station half a mile up the road and the lovely dogs played hide and seek and seeked very quickly. (Bite Bite)

Subsequently Mr X was very very abusive to the lovely police officers and got CS gas sprayed in his face.

Refused a breath test, went to Police station for a room for the night, continued to be abusive, then fell asleep.

Was much more sheepish in the morning but still refused to give a sample, no duty solicitor and charged with "HT? HP? 29 - Refusing to give sample?"
and released due to appear in Magistrates Court after 3 weeks.

So my learned friends, any ideas / informed guesses as to:

1) Expected Penalty/Ban/Fine should Mr X plead guilty?

2) Expected chances / difference it would make if Mr X pleaded not guilty.

Being a purely hypothetical question, lets presume that Mr X has no previous (anything) form and needs a car for a sales rep type job

By the way, just to stop the guessing - I dont drink!


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

Ouch.

TBH I would expect full force of the law to be dumped on Mr X's head in this instance....

I'm surprised no charges brought for resisting arrest or possible assault, if he was aggressive, abusive and not very well behaved. Either way, the behaviour on the night certainly won't count in his favour 

I can see no other recourse other than to plead guilty and attempt to mitigate circumstances - or try and find a VERY influential barrister / solicitor who can swing the case on a technicality.

Brother of a friend was involved in a DD debacle last year. Sizeable fine and 12 month ban, IIRC (4 figure fine) and as he was unemployed at the time, he wasn't able to plead "use of car for work".......

Sorry to hear this. We've all done something silly at some point. You'd hope the experience of knowing how stupid you've been is enough to make you not want to repeat the situation, and you sober up in more ways than one. But when it gets all legal, you have little choice than to face the inevitable consequences....


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## donna_kebab (May 8, 2002)

> Ouch.
> 
> Sorry to hear this. We've all done something silly at some point. You'd hope the experience of knowing how stupid you've been is enough to make you not want to repeat the situation, and you sober up in more ways than one. But when it gets all legal, you have little choice than to face the inevitable consequences....


Oi! Â Less of the "You've" Â IT WASN'T ME!!! Â ;D

Thanks for the info Â


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

Your friend is in waaay deep. :'(


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

Thought. Is he asthmatic? Could he become asthmatic quickly? That is can be grounds for refusal, although he would have had to have *not* been offered an alternative urine or blood test and have a good brief on procedural grounds to have a chance.

On the other hand what he has done is reprehensable, could have messed up someone elses life, and he may well deserve the full weight of the law.


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## donna_kebab (May 8, 2002)

Thanks Gary

Hypothetically he was offered any means of sampling I think.

And yes, you are right take it on the chin, live with the hassle of no licence for a while and learn from his mistakes, its not the end of the world, though Mr X feels like it is at the moment!


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## gunner (May 18, 2002)

Found this site with details of what the law says on DD http://www.lawontheweb.co.uk/crimedrinkdriving.htm

There are also specialist solisitors who deal with DD all the time, probably worth doing a search on the net to find a local one, good luck


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## head_ed (Dec 10, 2002)

Donna,

TBH, in my experience, your friend will probably lose his job unless he is REALLY lucky. A lot of contracts have it written into them about DD circumstances. Especially driving jobs.

A friend got a 36 months ban and had a retest after being found just over the limit.

As for leaving the scene of the crime - well....

Sorry, but no sympathy - not being 'holier than thou', just a really stupid and selfish thing to do.


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## racer (Feb 3, 2003)

This hypothetical friend sounds like a total ar$e. What ever punisihment he gets it won't be enough. No respect for himself, the law or others. 
I hope he gets a nasty judge who lost his wife child and mother to a drunk driver. Bring him to the TTOC and we can stone him. :-/


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## r1 (Oct 31, 2002)

> This hypothetical friend sounds like a total ar$e.


I don't think this is in question racer, the thread is about the likely legal outcome not peoples views on his crime. :


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## fastasflip (May 13, 2003)

At least your mate when he does get his licence back can tell his insurance that he has never been convicted for drink / Driving .........as he was charged with failing to provide so there's no evidence that he was over the limit.

Theres one to think about should you be caught in the same situation and well over the limit

But no sympathy here [smiley=hanged.gif]


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## racer (Feb 3, 2003)

> I don't think this is in question racer, the thread is about the likely legal outcome not peoples views on his crime. :


Absolutely agree, however this was a request for advice / information that would benefit someone who IMAO deserves the worst British Justice can give.
If I had some information that would get this guy some lighter treatment I would keep it to myself. :-/
I realise we all make mistakes in our lives but seriously drunk driving, resisting arrest whatever, really does take the biscuit. :-/


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## jonah (Aug 17, 2002)

Although failing to give a specimin often recieves a greater sentence ,fine, and ban :-/
He must of been way over the limit or on drugs to not give a specimin.


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## R6B TT (Feb 25, 2003)

Donna, this probably won't cheer him up very much. He'll probably cop a 1000 fine and ban of at least 18 months - prob 2 years

Driving/Attempting to Drive with excess alcohol (DR10)
Penalty - Fine - up to Level 5 (Â£5,000) and/or up to 6 months imprisonment
Mandatory disqualification for at least 12 months for first offence
Mandatory disqualification for at least 3 years for second offence within 10 years

After Driving/Attempting to drive refusing to provide samples for analysis (DR30)
Penalty - Fine - up to Level 5 (Â£5,000) and/or 6 months imprisonment
Mandatory disqualification for at least 12 months for first offence (18 months tends to be the norm as you are considered to have been trying to avoid being found guilty)
Mandatory disqualification for at least 3 years for second offence within 10 years


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## Guy (May 13, 2002)

When your friend has found out just what he is being charged with tell him to go to a solicitor for his advise.

If he intends pleading guilty then sack the solicitor and save his costs. If he goes to court well dressed and performs the biggest boot licking exercise he has done since he last wet the bed he will have saved the costs of a solicitor (unless he can get legal aid).

If he pleads not guilty but the case(s) are proven, he can expect a worse penalty. There may be room for a trade off with using a guilty plea as a way to get a prosecutor to not mention the abuse to the police officers but this would really need a solicitor to bargain this for you. His fees would probably exceed what you would save though!

Last February a chap in my locality in a similar situation (except he crashed the car, then he tried legging it but was stopped nearby) received 12 months in prison and a 5 year ban.

He WILL loose his licence for a minimum of 12 months and probably longer. There is no practical leeway in this. He can expect a fine around the Â£1000 mark.

There was comment in a previous post about refusing a breath test so you can get cheaper insurance levels. Forget it, that died a death over 15 years ago and you will be penalised by the insurance companies either on the same or even at a higher level if you refuse a breath test (even if you are sober!).

If he is going to use the well worn â€˜asthmaâ€™ excuse your friend should be producing doctors notes from some time back. In any event, this (and the â€˜needle phobiaâ€™) are countered by the opportunity to provide alternative samples (the blood or urine).

Donâ€™t forget that it is people who meter out â€˜justiceâ€™. If the magistrates have not had their favourite kippers/porridge/scrambled egg for breakfast they will issue a more severe penalty.


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2003)

Mr X is an arse and deserves all he gets. If he'd come clean and stoped and given a sample he'd have got a 12 month ban and a fine in the hundreds.

As he has tried to evade the police and then fail to comply / co-operate, he'll probably get an 18 month ban and a larger fine, and possibly Community Service.

And if he goes to court and pleads not guilty, then he'll probably get a 2 yr ban (still not long enough, imho). And as far as insurance companies are concerned a DR offence is treated the same whether it be a DR10, DR30 or whatever.

You never know - if he'd gone to the police station and asked for a blood test, the doctor may have taken an hour or 2 to get out of bed, get dressed and get to the police station. By that time, Mr X may have possibly been under the limit !!

Please keep us informed when he gets sentenced, so that we can laugh at his stupidity - and hopefully it might discourage others from doing the same.

SOOTTY

PS - Oh, and if he does it again, he'll get sent down !!


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## head_ed (Dec 10, 2002)

I hope the tosser gets a custodial sentence! My dad was mown down by someone like this, he now only has one kneecap, the other one was smashed into pieces and had to be removed. He has 1 plastic shoulder blade and he spent 3 months with both legs in plaster from his ankles to hips because of all the breaks and fractures.

It took nearly 2 years before he walk again properly, 20 years later he still struggles and takes an unbelievable amount of painkillers everyday just to see him through! He now suffers arthritis and chronic migraines because of his severe injuries.

Basically I nearly lost my dad when I was only little and he was very lucky to survive and the bitch that did it showed no remorse whatsoever!

We all do stupid things, to drink and drive is stupid but doing all the rest of it is beyond belief. Maybe you should make your 'hypothetical friend' read this and maybe he might just realise what he could have done to someone else's family!  

Paula


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## Dubcat (Jun 10, 2002)

First I thought this thread was funny - although I agreed with the general concencus that Mr X is a complete idiot who deserves what he gets.

When I read Paulas post I realised this thread is not funny and the guy REALLY deserves all he gets.

I know this is kinda off topic and the guy is looking for help but I would have thought that most decent people would not help this guy out. [smiley=whip.gif]

Sorry if that sounds a bit mean.


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

> most decent people would not help this guy out.


Thats quite a strong statement, and in context, (without wishing to be argumentative) its quite "holier than though".

Its only since about the 70's or 80's that drink driving has been totally frowned upon. One area of the "law" where the new technology of blood and breath testing has allowed "PC Plod" to make a difference at the roadside with something provable and measurable (as opposed to any other type of accident or incident)

It used to be the case that driving home (carefully) whilst completely tanked up was (in a lot of places) if not totally acceptable, at least not frowned upon too heavily.

I really really don't know the statistics, but I would hazard a guess that drink driving (these days) accounts for a generous (although decreasing) proportion of accidents and deaths. Ditto drug-driving. But I would also imagine there are many other areas to blame, such as excessive speed, falling asleep at the wheel, driving without due care or attention, racing, driving dangerously or in a dangerous vehicle.

On this forum we are NOT quick to condemn speeders or (in some cases) other forms of dangerous or antisocial driving habits. Yet these people pose a risk in the same way that Mr X did. And through personal CHOICE as well. One could also go as far as to say their choice was more defined, as it wasn't rendered difficult by alcohol......

I'm making no judgement as to the level or severity of risk, and not making any statistical comment whatsoever - just that if we are to condemn one form of "dangerous" (and wholly inappropriate behaviour) we should at least show some consistency.....

We're all willing to point people towards websites to help them if caught speeding, so why is drunk driving any different? OK we've seen the images at Christmas time. But are they any different to SPEED related accidents? I doubt it.....

Allow the guy to accept the punishment meted out to him. Allow him the right to defend himself and seek advice from people able to help him. Allow him to carry out whatever sentence is handed down and have it stick on his driving record (and criminal one?) for the required amount of time. Then forget it and trust that he won't make the same mistake again....

Noone is doubting that the guy is guilty. Few (if any) will want to see him go scott free. But he should still be able to be treated fairly and consitently, be able to mitigate where necessary, but above all, I don't think he needs those of us in glass houses to be throwing stones at him.....

Next time you are out, remember you don't have to be drunk to drive like a [email protected]


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## Steve_Mc (May 6, 2002)

Rubbish Jampot.

If someone posted here "I was caught doing 60 outside a school in a 30 zone, while it was raining" they'd get no sympathy and precious little offers of help.


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

*shrug*

well there is your answer. Speeding is obviously "ok" under some circumstances but not others....

....but 60 in a 30mph zone in the rain outside a school is "bad" whereas 100mph+ on a motorway is "ok"?

under either circumstance, your excess speed is a potential killer - whether or not you choose to take that risk is yours...

of course I'm not saying DD is "ok". But if you crash whilst drunk vs crash whilst speeding /falling asleep etc you'll end up causing similar carnage to yourself and those around you...........


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## r1 (Oct 31, 2002)

> *shrug*
> 
> well there is your answer. Speeding is obviously "ok" under some circumstances but not others....
> 
> ...


I think you're taking your 'devils advocate' role a little too far this time Jampott. This guy was horrendously pissed and evading arrest etc etc. The speeding equivalent of doing 100mpg in a 30 zone surely? You can't just blanket cover the issue with 'it's only the same as speeding' because in this case it really isn't. Had he been just over the limit after having a half too many then your points would be more valid.

And before I'm asked - I don't believe that DD is DD regardless of the amount. In any legislation there has to be a cut-off area and if your offence is right on the line then it does seem unreasonable sometimes.

However, before I get attacked here - I do not condone DD. Half of my girlfriends family were killed by a DDer and so I can appreciate the emotions the issue can cause.


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

> I think you're taking your 'devils advocate' role a little too far this time Jampott.


Maybe - but I'm just trying to show that we are all capable of hypocritical and sweeping generalisations....



> This guy was horrendously pissed and evading arrest etc etc.


The arrest evasion goes without question, but we don't KNOW how mullered the chap was, so I think its unfair to draw any parallels.....

What I'm trying to say is, I don't think its right to say "the guy was obviously guilty of doing X Y and Z therefore no decent person would help him out" - for a number of different reasons....

I *do* think he is entitled to fairness and consistency....


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## r1 (Oct 31, 2002)

> had loads and loads and loads of wobbly pop and then got in his car to drive home 8 miles from a club.
> 
> Got pulled over half-way home and ..... legged it, hiding in a garden, until the local constbulary got their dogs out from the station half a mile up the road and the lovely dogs played hide and seek and seeked very quickly. (Bite Bite)
> 
> ...


I think we DO know how pissed he was.....



> I *do* think he is entitled to fairness and consistency....


So do I...and I don't *see* any unfairness here. I don't agree with the way the threads gone however, but I mentioned that before and it still happened ;D

You must be a Libra JampoTT.


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

Scorpio, as it happens 

I've been accused of many things in my time, but never been accused of being a Libran before....


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## Howard (May 7, 2002)

Given the form so far, I think Mr X would be best to run again(!), skip the country (South America maybe?) and become Mrs Y.

Was he on any medication at the time that may have impacted the drink?


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## donna_kebab (May 8, 2002)

Well thanks for the comments.

Im sorry that there are so many of you that have had him hung, drawn and quartered already, but by the same token, I can completely see your point and don't condone it whatsoever, in fact I feel very strongly about this myself.

I know though, from driving home from london many a saturday night ( after orange juice of course) just how many people do take this risk, or are half-asleep - drifting from lane to lane in the M3, its scary even trying to overtake them. It does need to be stopped and bans like this, I am sure, stop the majority of repeat offences.

Anyway, Mr X, isnt me, isnt my other half ( for the speculators!!) but IS a good friend, and being a good friend of his, I sympathise ( instead of being a 'i told you so, I hope they throw the book.....)

I, as with a number of his other friends, will be supporting him in court tomorrow, when we expect no less than a substantial ban and fine. Nevertheless, we have all rallyed round a very remorseful, worried individual this week, The bottom line is he is a good friend :-/

I will, for the record, let you know the outcome, but won't ask for this sort of advice in the future, didnt realise it would stir so many judgemental harsh feelings. :-[


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## newcasTTle (Nov 29, 2002)

> Well Â thanks for the comments.
> I will, for the record, let you know the outcome, but won't ask for this sort of advice in the future, didnt realise it would stir so many judgemental harsh feelings. Â :-[


i hope you will feel free to ask advice on any question, but it is very hard to feel sympathy with someone who chose to drink and put himself in this position-sorry if you feel this is harsh, but itÃ¦s just bloody lucky he didn't kill anybody


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## donna_kebab (May 8, 2002)

> ley link=board=OffTop;num=1056635206;start=20#27 date=07/03/03 at 12:13:16]
> but it is very hard to feel sympathy with someone who chose to drink and put himself in this position-sorry if you feel this is harsh, but itÃ¦s just bloody lucky he didn't kill anybody


Accepted and I fully agree.

well he got 20 months ban, reduced to 15 if he goes on a retraining course and get this - Â£90 fine.

Seems very light, but he had a lot of support from his employers. :-/


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

Fortunate young man.....

Next time he should either

a) not drink
b) not drive
c) invest in a better pair of trainers or carry some steak to fool the dogs

I think b) is probably best all round.....

REALLY don't understand the Â£90 fine... my mate's brother got more than that, and he was unemployed and unable to pay....


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## Dubcat (Jun 10, 2002)

90 quid? wow 

not going to say what i think about that because I don't want to offend donna - and i do understand she was just standing by her friend and that he is remorseful...

seems very lucky - if he does it again maybe they will up the fine to 100 whole pounds... :-/ People get FAR bigger fines for DD - let alone DD and then running away. Did he have a special lawyer or summat?


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## David_A (May 7, 2002)

You know I just read this all the way thru and thought at the end what if its accidental eg the morning after, stronger beer lets say it only tipped you .01 mg over the edge you still get a ban and fine and LOSE YOUR JOB.

All fair I reckon except losing your job, for a lot of professionals that you stuffed for ever - yes I know just like the person you could have hit.

Here's a new idea (along with my outsourcing the prison system to Thailand idea) why not ban the person from drinking? Impose a custodial sentance if they are caught with more than half a lager in them? Oh and a f*** off massive fine. The fine causes the punishement the threat of a jail sentance if your drinking whether or not your driving is a deterrent.

BTW I've had 4 cans of stella before I came up with that!

Dave

p.s.

If you hit someone/thing - Thai jail for you!


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## Dubcat (Jun 10, 2002)

posting when pissed - its the thai jail for you my boy :


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## David_A (May 7, 2002)

Not pissed - just tipsey.

Trouble is laptop keeps falling off my lap every time I steer round a corner too fast.

Dave


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