# Manchester outrage



## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

Thoughts go out to all those affected by the incident in Manchester.

The response to the result of hate through one individual, however caused, by the many in our community who empathise through love for family and friends, resulted in an outpouring of support and kindness that shows in the words of the late Joe Cox - there is more that unites us than divides us.

https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfunding ... manchester

The Manchester Evening News started the above crowdfunder, to give help and support the families and those affected. You can donate now and also leave a message of support.


----------



## Roller Skate (May 18, 2015)

John-H said:


> Thoughts go out to all those affected by the incident in Manchester.
> 
> The response to the result of hate through one individual, however caused, by the many in our community who empathise through love for family and friends, resulted in an outpouring of support and kindness that shows in the words of the late Joe Cox - there is more that unites us than divides us.
> 
> https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfunding ... manchester


Don't know John. I've always believed racism and religion were taught ... nobody being born a racist, nobody born a Christian, Muslim, Jew etc.

This is a game changer. Kids. Let that sink in, a soft target, kids.


----------



## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

There were reports of taxi drivers giving free rides to take people home, food outlets giving free meals and cups of tea, people turning up to give support and help out, people being turned away from blood banks because staff couldn't keep up with the numbers of donors that came forward exceeding what was needed. People pulled together and showed some solidarity regardless of race or background. So many children were hurt and were lost which must be so hard for the families - I can't imagine how I'd cope with that and I expect many are thinking the same.

Images from a day of reflection and solidarity following the Manchester Arena terrorist attack:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/in-pictures-40016086


----------



## ZephyR2 (Feb 20, 2013)

Roller Skate said:


> John-H said:
> 
> 
> > Thoughts go out to all those affected by the incident in Manchester.
> ...


I don't think this kids event was necessarily a soft target. I believe it was chosen because the murder of countless children and young adults would be more outrageous than the murder of adults and therefore would attract far more publicity and media coverage, which is what these evil people want.


----------



## Roller Skate (May 18, 2015)

ZephyR2 said:


> Roller Skate said:
> 
> 
> > John-H said:
> ...


It was a soft target ... the security was dire, (not that you can stop this kind of attack) there was less likely to be any "have a go heroes" if he didn't manage to clack his belt/vest off.

5000 troops on the streets today, a strong message but pointless.

An ideology is at war with us and the government seems either naive to the fact (it's not, I assure you) or the PC rhetoric spouted to garner votes is putting the lives of innocent people at risk on a daily basis.


----------



## Roller Skate (May 18, 2015)

John-H said:


> There were reports of taxi drivers giving free rides to take people home, food outlets giving free meals and cups of tea ...
> 
> Images from a day of reflection and solidarity following the Manchester Arena terrorist attack:
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/in-pictures-40016086


But you would wouldn't you. But then I'd have more respect if they'd stayed anonymous, not used what they'd done as a PR stunt by telling the locals how great they were in the local papers and on the BBC.

As for, "Were standing together ... this won't change us" I'm not buying it. I understand the mass psychology behind it, take it on the chin, carry on as normal and be good little voters.

But we're not all together in this are we, those in the Muslim community that were secretly cheering this suicide bomber on ... they're not with us and this is where all that "stand together" bollocks falls down.


----------



## bobclive22 (Apr 5, 2010)

He was on our radar.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05 ... de-bomber/


----------



## Roller Skate (May 18, 2015)

bobclive22 said:


> He was on our radar.
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05 ... de-bomber/


This might come as a bit of a surprise to you but the majority of these terrorists are.

The problem is the intelligence the intelligence services have on them is usually "live" but live pretty much only works in retrospect. Electronic surveillance simply isn't enough any more because these singular or cell terrorists have upped their tradecraft.

Financially we can't physically monitor them 24/7 partly because they constantly red flag themselves giving out false flags ... pull them too early and you lose the chance to monitor whom they're working with. You don't get the chance to pull them "too late" because by then the damage has been done.

Which leaves what the intelligence community refers to as the "reset button" which I'd like to see come into effect.


----------



## ashfinlayson (Oct 26, 2013)

Agree with skates, there isn't really any way to see these things coming until they happen. I was at manchester arena a couple of weeks ago to see Micky, there were no security checks of any kind there but short of having airport style security at every large gathering, I don't see what else could be done. Even so there is nothing to stop them just waiting for people to walk outside. Feel awful for all those involved


----------



## Roller Skate (May 18, 2015)

ashfinlayson said:


> Agree with skates, there isn't really any way to see these things coming until they happen. I was at manchester arena a couple of weeks ago to see Micky, there were no security checks of any kind there but short of having airport style security at every large gathering, I don't see what else could be done. Even so there is nothing to stop them just waiting for people to walk outside. Feel awful for all those involved


I've watched people wander around Leeds Arena auditorium while the concerts going on, more than once I've contacted security to have them removed. 
I worked for Showsec many years ago when it started, back then SIA wasn't involved with who you employed, you were employed for your skill set. Now they've become the size they are they employ anyone SIA registered because they employ by numbers, forget the skill sets, low paid badge holders.
I know this because it's not just obvious but I was talking to an ex bootneck when I went to see the Elvis Royal Philharmonic some months back ... he said they paid peanuts nowadays and employed monkeys.

I'm not shocked, it's how the industry works. You get the placebo effect of a decent job being done. :?


----------



## ashfinlayson (Oct 26, 2013)

yeah true and if they employed non-monkeys and added security measures then the ticket price would go through the roof, as if it hasn't already


----------



## Roller Skate (May 18, 2015)

ashfinlayson said:


> yeah true and if they employed non-monkeys and added security measures then the ticket price would go through the roof, as if it hasn't already


That's the parasitic ticket companies ... but what price do you put on safety?


----------



## ashfinlayson (Oct 26, 2013)

safety is priceless but it prices a lot of folk out of seeing the big names


----------



## Roller Skate (May 18, 2015)

ashfinlayson said:


> safety is priceless but it prices a lot of folk out of seeing the big names


It's not priceless then is it.


----------



## ashfinlayson (Oct 26, 2013)

I was referring to the cost of the ticket pricing people out of going :wink: not the price of safety


----------



## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

ashfinlayson said:


> not the price of safety


Which is surely not relevant anyway, because the cheapest option (not going) is also the safest option.


----------



## ashfinlayson (Oct 26, 2013)

Spandex said:


> ashfinlayson said:
> 
> 
> > not the price of safety
> ...


If we were to all think that then they'll have won


----------



## Roller Skate (May 18, 2015)

ashfinlayson said:


> Spandex said:
> 
> 
> > ashfinlayson said:
> ...


So, if these cowards were targeting arenas like this on a regular basis you'd be more than happy for one of your kids to go see a band live at one of them?

You know, just to prove the point that they haven't "won?"
You don't gamble do you?

*by the way, I'm not picking on you Ash, it isn't my style, this is debate.


----------



## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

Roller Skate said:


> John-H said:
> 
> 
> > There were reports of taxi drivers giving free rides to take people home, food outlets giving free meals and cups of tea ...
> ...


Of course you would. What I heard on the BBC was not self grandiosity but simple reporting and interviews with shocked people, many of whom were just relating their honest experience because they were asked, with many clearly feeling some sort of guilt that they had escaped the worse consequences when others hadn't and clearly feeling empathy towards the victims and families. The help from shop keepers was not self publicity as they asked specifically not to be named because they said they didn't want synicism to suggest that they were seeking publicity.



Roller Skate said:


> As for, "Were standing together ... this won't change us" I'm not buying it. I understand the mass psychology behind it, take it on the chin, carry on as normal and be good little voters.


I don't believe it's to do with voting as the reaction to come together was generated within the community and any political support was cross party. The same thing happened in France with people saying they just felt they needed to come out onto the street and be there and make a defiant statement, show solidarity and there was no election then if course.



Roller Skate said:


> But we're not all together in this are we, those in the Muslim community that were secretly cheering this suicide bomber on ... they're not with us and this is where all that "stand together" bollocks falls down.


Where do you draw the line between the few wrongdoers and the majority of the innocent and good people? Isn't that the boundary of those standing together? How do you identify the wrongdoers and what do you suggest be done about it? If there are sympathisers to the terrorists within the wider community then something needs doing about that to change their sympathies or other action but they by definition don't stand with us in the same way that sympathisers of right wing extremists that killed Joe Cox also don't stand with us. The extremists or those with extremist views pedal hate and that's what we need to get rid of.


----------



## Roller Skate (May 18, 2015)

John-H said:


> Roller Skate said:
> 
> 
> > John-H said:
> ...


It's not how I saw it at all ... but then my "radar" is very sensitive right now. The taxi company owner that I saw on local news did everything but give his company number out.

My point was as "voters" we are nothing to the politicians other than a number in a demographic.

... and I don't want to see solidarity any more because a lot of the solidarity shown by the Muslim community is faux at best. I'm a great believer that even if you're not directly complicit in an attack, if you know something you should do something about it. But they don't ... they live in their Muslim environment and under fear of a God and close ranks across the board.

If you knew something and did nothing to stop it, you're complicit, your lack of actions cost lives.

I live in a very Muslim gentrified area near Leeds, in fact, not far from where Joe Cox was murdered. In fact I have two clients in Birstall ... trust me, the community that the media showed "all together" isn't a real representation of the area. Within days it was business as usual within days ... Muslims on their side of the fence and everybody else on the other.


----------



## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

ashfinlayson said:


> Spandex said:
> 
> 
> > ashfinlayson said:
> ...


I wasn't suggesting that this was a reason not to go - just pointing out that safety isn't a consideration when deciding if you can afford to go, because technically you're actually safer if you don't.

I was actually agreeing with you that people tend not to put a price on their safety in these situations, because it's not a case of "the more you pay, the safer you are".


----------



## Roller Skate (May 18, 2015)

Spandex said:


> I was actually agreeing with you that people tend not to put a price on their safety in these situations, because it's not a case of "the more you pay, the safer you are".


Actually I disagree with that comment. In the military we use a lot of screening techniques before you get to any magnetic screening gateways. A cheap Garrett Screening Gun would have picked this idiot out stopping him from getting into the foyer. In fact, some Showsec personnel have access to Garrett guns.

Professional Ex Military personnel wouldn't look at working there as a Jolly. They might cost more but that's what you have to pay for professionals. Vigilance and pride in what you do.

You might want to go check out the personnel that Showsec uses ...


----------



## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

Roller Skate said:


> Spandex said:
> 
> 
> > I was actually agreeing with you that people tend not to put a price on their safety in these situations, because it's not a case of "the more you pay, the safer you are".
> ...


Ok. So you're saying that the more you pay, the safer you are? If I pay £50 for a ticket, am I safer than paying £0 and not going?


----------



## Roller Skate (May 18, 2015)

Spandex said:


> Roller Skate said:
> 
> 
> > Spandex said:
> ...


Don't talk rubbish Spandex, I'm not Bobclive.

Your point was it wasn't a case "the more you pay, the safer you are".


----------



## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

Roller Skate said:


> . . . Muslims on their side of the fence and everybody else on the other.


That's a very broad brush. Isn't that part of the problem?


----------



## Roller Skate (May 18, 2015)

John-H said:


> Roller Skate said:
> 
> 
> > . . . Muslims on their side of the fence and everybody else on the other.
> ...


Of course it's the problem ... it's a statement of fact John and the problem will only be solved with a broad brush. :?


----------



## Shug750S (Feb 6, 2012)

Roller Skate said:


> Spandex said:
> 
> 
> > I was actually agreeing with you that people tend not to put a price on their safety in these situations, because it's not a case of "the more you pay, the safer you are".
> ...


Very good point at the end there mate. There's a massive difference between professional security personnel and the mass security you see at some sporting events and gigs. Seems to me a lot of them are coached through the SIA qualification and can hardly speak English. Totally different to professionally trained and highly skilled security, but of course that costs more

Compared to the security team I was escorted by in Africa a few weeks ago. Some serious close protection guys in that group. Mixed Europeans and Africans. Used the same guys before and complete confidence in them.


----------



## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

Roller Skate said:


> Don't talk rubbish Spandex, I'm not Bobclive.
> 
> Your point was it wasn't a case "the more you pay, the safer you are".


Let's just be clear, this started when you said "It's not priceless then is it" (referring to safety) specifically in the case where someone decides the ticket price is more than they're willing to pay. Because surely in that case, they're not putting a price on their safety because they're choosing the safest option by not paying for a ticket.

I'm not trying to claim that added security doesn't cost money - it surely does.


----------



## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

Roller Skate said:


> John-H said:
> 
> 
> > Roller Skate said:
> ...


What "fact" are you referring to? What solution are you proposing?


----------



## Roller Skate (May 18, 2015)

Spandex said:


> Roller Skate said:
> 
> 
> > Don't talk rubbish Spandex, I'm not Bobclive.
> ...


You want to play your usual game of oneupmanship Spandex? Really? Bob's around somewhere? 
If you don't buy a ticket your point is moot. 
You can try to be a pedant over a moot point all day long if you want ... but not with me, it's beneath me and I think better of you than that.


----------



## Roller Skate (May 18, 2015)

Shug750S said:


> Roller Skate said:
> 
> 
> > Spandex said:
> ...


Worked for Chevron in Banjul for about a year with surveyors, I've still got the machete mark on the bridge of my nose as a reminder. :lol:


----------



## Roller Skate (May 18, 2015)

John-H said:


> Roller Skate said:
> 
> 
> > Of course it's the problem ... it's a statement of fact John and the problem will only be solved with a broad brush. :?
> ...


Muslims on their side of the fence ...

Ultimately we can go down the usual route of placating the Politically Correct or we can have a balls out discussion which doesn't placate anyone in this discussion. One where people say what they actually think. This doesn't have to be an EDL recruitment post, this doesn't have to be a UKIP promoting rant ... because I'm about neither of those things. You choose.


----------



## Roller Skate (May 18, 2015)

One more thing. If we're gong to have this conversation let's just read this. Forget what rag it's from ...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05 ... or-attack/


----------



## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

I would hope not and would not expect that from you so I am concerned by your broad brush words. It's not for me to choose what you say. I only ask what you mean.

My general point was that it was encouraging to see people pulling together in support. I'm somewhat surprised at the way this thread had gone. The link I posted was to show some support and raise money for the families affected. It's raised over one million now.


----------



## Roller Skate (May 18, 2015)

John-H said:


> I would hope not and would not expect that from you so I am concerned by your broad brush words. It's not for me to choose what you say. I only ask what you mean.
> 
> My general point was that it was encouraging to see people pulling together in support. I'm somewhat surprised at the way this thread had gone. The link I posted was to raise money for the families affected. It's raised over one million now.


I know ... I gave £250 of it.

I'm not a bad moderator myself John. I can moderate myself. In fact when I set up TT Talk all those years ago when Jae let this site nearly fall to bits, I was considered a bit harsh. "If you wouldn't say it to someone's face, don't post it" was my mantra, in fact I saw Robokn post those exact words on here years ago.

I'll let people post their feelings and views about this subject if they want to vent them, I'm not here to incite hatred, again, that's not my thing.
So, apologies to yourself for hijacking this thread and the same to Spandex ... I'm just feeling a bit angry today and a bit raw.


----------



## ashfinlayson (Oct 26, 2013)

Roller Skate said:


> So, if these cowards were targeting arenas like this on a regular basis you'd be more than happy for one of your kids to go see a band live at one of them?
> 
> You know, just to prove the point that they haven't "won?"
> You don't gamble do you?
> ...


Life is a gamble mate, whether you step on a plane, cross a road, get in a car or ride a bike or lift a heavier weight. My "they've won point" was about terror, thats why the call it terror after all isn't it? to terrorise people into being too scared to go about their daily life and enjoy the likes of Ariana Grande. At least that is our interpretation of what these morons are doing.

With regards to ticket prices, I was referring to the people that can't afford to pay the ticket price after the extra cost of security has been factored in (concert tickets very expensive anyway) but I doubt Joe Bloggs on the street really ever considered their safety in the auditorium when ordering concert tickets until now and why should we.

Regardless of the above, it's all bloody awful and I hope they find this terror network and hang the lot of em.


----------



## Roller Skate (May 18, 2015)

ashfinlayson said:


> Roller Skate said:
> 
> 
> > So, if these cowards were targeting arenas like this on a regular basis you'd be more than happy for one of your kids to go see a band live at one of them?
> ...


I couldn't enjoy Ariana Grande even if I was 15 and she was naked in my bedroom ... I'd just be terrified that she might sing.

We live in interesting times ... :?


----------



## ashfinlayson (Oct 26, 2013)

hehe I know what you mean, I prefer the kind of music where a dude sings that high


----------



## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

Roller Skate said:


> John-H said:
> 
> 
> > I would hope not and would not expect that from you so I am concerned by your broad brush words. It's not for me to choose what you say. I only ask what you mean.
> ...


You bring back memories  You may remember I was always into peace-making between warring trines and always thought the TT community, owners club, forum and all the splinter groups were best served by working together. Peace and harmony, strength in unity and all that. Fix things from within. Same as when I look at the EU. I don't know how you solve this one though. It's history goes back a long way. A clash of cultures steeped in war and exploitation to which this manifestation is a recent if more extreme flavour. Ireland went back a long way too and it seemed so pointless for the sides to trot out broken record ancient reasoning for why they so opposed the other side. They held each other back. So good that there was a move to peace and look at the flourishing community now with the real people definitely not wishing to risk falling back into how things were. I understand feelings are running high. I only hope we can solve this too. That's what we all want after all.


----------



## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

Roller Skate said:


> If you don't buy a ticket your point is moot.


It wasn't MY point:


ashfinlayson said:


> With regards to ticket prices, I was referring to the people that can't afford to pay the ticket price after the extra cost of security has been factored in


THAT'S the point I was discussing. That's the point you replied to when Ash first made it, and I replied to that.

But whatever. More important things...


----------



## Roller Skate (May 18, 2015)

John-H said:


> Roller Skate said:
> 
> 
> > John-H said:
> ...


The problem with all of this, The TT Forum, The TTOC ... The IRA, this new version of an old spectre within Islam, all of it falls down for the same reason ... everybody wants to be in charge. :?

Mo Mowlem pulled off the coup of the century by garnering peace without it looking like we gave into terrorism.


----------

