# Mk2 boot spoiler in Mk1 boot lid- Your opinions please.



## longodds (May 8, 2014)

Ok, I saw this done on YouTube so, liking a challenge, thought I'd have a crack at it. I purchased a used Mk2 TT Roadster boot lid complete with its electric spoiler. Then I got hold of a Mk1 boot lid and, when the sun came out to shine, I dragged them both out with a few tools onto the front lawn. Now, I'm old skool, so I tend to play it by ear, but here's where I got to and I would welcome my fellow TT owners advice/opinions on whether I should keep the Mk2 spoiler 'lip' or dispense with it entirely for a smoother look- even though it's more work.

Mk2 boot


Got rid of this


But, kept this


Mk1 boot


Mk1 boot first tentative cut


Mk1 boot after a bit more cutting


And, the other side


Here's where I am now- please notice the lip on this and the following two photos


Givin more lip


Should I keep it or not?


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## Hoggy (May 8, 2002)

Hi, Respect for all the work involved, but never liked that spoiler on the MK2, let alone the MK1.
Hoggy.


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## Duggy (May 17, 2005)

Keep going, I think if you can blend the leading edge in it will look stunning 8)

Looking at Porsche Boxters at the time, I think if Audi knew they were going to have the handling recall it is similar to what they would have done in the first place. Win, win, rounded looks when stationary and downforce when needed 

John


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## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

There is a thread ..way back somewhere where somebody did a motorised spoiler on a MK1..too lazy to check


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## YELLOW_TT (Feb 25, 2004)

Sorry not for me if you want a mk2 buy a mk2


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## Ikon66 (Sep 12, 2003)

3TT3 said:


> There is a thread ..way back somewhere where somebody did a motorised spoiler on a MK1..too lazy to check


viewtopic.php?f=2&t=169041&hilit=Spoiler


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

YELLOW_TT said:


> Sorry not for me if you want a mk2 buy a mk2


I'm experimenting with the boot spoiler, not changing my car.


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## infidel.uk (Feb 21, 2015)

chop chop chop !


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## MrQaud (Jun 5, 2013)

100% definitely for me - seriously cool. Keep going - can't wait to see the finished result. 
There was a silver Mark 1 TT on the forums for sale about a year and a half ago running over 500 brake which had a mark 2 boot spoiler fitted - though it was well 8)


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## V6RUL (May 28, 2009)

Props to VSPURS who did this first time round and hopefully you can pick some ideas out of his setup.
Motorised is cool but was a PITA to get working initially.
Steve


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

What you should have done is cut a strip in the Mk1 bootlid and use the motorised mechanism to move that, rather than trying to blend a Mk2 body part into the Mk1 bootlid.


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## Pugwash69 (Jun 12, 2012)

I'd be a little worried about losing the structural part from the underside of the lid but fair play for experimenting. 8)


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## MrQaud (Jun 5, 2013)

V6RUL said:


> Props to VSPURS who did this first time round and hopefully you can pick some ideas out of his setup.
> Motorised is cool but was a PITA to get working initially.
> Steve


Yeah, that was the car I was referring too - awesome car...


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

Pugwash69 said:


> I'd be a little worried about losing the structural part from the underside of the lid but fair play for experimenting. 8)


I've kept the redundant metal so that I can use that and sheet steel to reinstall the bracing. After all, traveling at speed with the spoiler up will probably exert a down-force of around 60+/- kg on the boot lid.


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

Hoggy said:


> Hi, Respect for all the work involved, but never liked that spoiler on the MK2, let alone the MK1.
> Hoggy.


I'm not too keen on the Mk2 spoiler either, but it provides the material to work with. I hope to end up with a boot that looks as smooth and clean as the designers originally envisaged it, but with the necessary down-force when driving.


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

Spandex said:


> What you should have done is cut a strip in the Mk1 bootlid and use the motorised mechanism to move that, rather than trying to blend a Mk2 body part into the Mk1 bootlid.


Thank you; I should have thought of that.


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

Spandex said:


> What you should have done is cut a strip in the Mk1 bootlid and use the motorised mechanism to move that, rather than trying to blend a Mk2 body part into the Mk1 bootlid.


Hi Spandex. I read with interest your posts on the 'Mk1 Motorised Rear Spoiler Conversion' thread. I am interested in incorporating your suggested method of automatically operating the spoiler as it would be a pity for me to settle on having the spoiler rise and lower with the ignition- or any other manually operated switch. As I'm not familiar with Arduino and as you seem to be, could you recommend the Arduino board (if it is a board) that I should obtain and the required CAN bus shield for it?

Many thanks


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

Do you have any coding skills? This wouldnt be easy if you don't have a bit of programming experience.

I think I'd buy the Sparkfun CANbus board just because it's going to have the best support and largest user base. That will stack onto any standard format arduino board.


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

I don't have any coding skills whatever I'm afraid. Can you recommend a specific standard format arduino board? Do you know of another way I can achieve what I am attempting to get the spoiler to do?

Thanks


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

I guess something like this:

https://www.coolcomponents.co.uk/arduino-uno-revision-3.html

Although there may be cheaper options out there. When I say 'standard format' I'm talking about the layout of the headers you can see on the board. This is standardised so you can buy 'shields' that plug straight into the Arduino board. As space isn't at a premium I don't see any reason to go for the smaller non-shield compatible boards.

TBH if you don't have coding experience (or don't have friends/family who could help - Arduino uses something very similar to C) I think you'd be better off just running a switched circuit to the spoiler. You also need to think about how the travel is limited at the raised/lowered positions - is this handled by the mechanism already or are you going to have to manage this?


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

From the little I know (it's been a very quick learning curve) I was considering an Uno and the Sparkfun CANbus shield you mentioned, but, after making inquiries have decided on a Leonardo-CANbus (seems to be an all in one for my purpose). As for coding, I'm sure I'll be able to find someone on Fiver or a similar site to do me a Arduino coding gig. The travel is limited by a couple of micro switches. I'll be able to incorporate those in my power supply and control circuit. Now that you've introduced me to Arduino and hence spoilt me with control options, I doubt an on/off, up/down switch will cut it for me now. By the way, I found that the lip on the Mk2 spoiler that I want to get rid of appears to be a structural part designed to provide rigidity. As I don't want a Mk2 look-alike boot I might have to undo some of the work I've done to reinstate that. It's all fun and games, but I'm quietly confident that it will turn out well in the end.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

I'd not heard of the Leonardo canbus board, but it looks much better than my suggestion. Let us know how you get on.


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## Larken93 (Sep 13, 2014)

Nice work really like what you've done here it's the only bit on the mk1 that to me looks out of place seeing as it was never in the initial design I guess a little rushed but this has alot of potential keep at it


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## Wak (May 6, 2002)

Would this save some hassle?
http://www.rx4speeding.com/Speed_Activa ... S_24V.html


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

I think it would save a lot of hassle. Reasonable price and appears easy to incorporate and use.Thanks for that Wak.


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

Not had much spare time lately, but I've figured out a few challenging problems that have presented themselves while doing this and did a bit of work this afternoon.

Removed the Mk2 'lip'.







Cut some bolt access holes.



Cut some metal to reinstall the bracing.



Chopped off the spoilers ends to reattach when I've shortened it.



Next job, when I get a few moments, is to tack up and weld everything. Then grind down the welds; linish it; fiberglass, fill and flat it.


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## Pugwash69 (Jun 12, 2012)

longodds said:


> I don't have any coding skills whatever I'm afraid. Can you recommend a specific standard format arduino board? Do you know of another way I can achieve what I am attempting to get the spoiler to do?
> 
> Thanks


It might still be worth downloading the free Arduino IDE (programming interface) because it's not a complicated thing. It's very much like javascript or C code but without the complicated bits. You are probably only going to make it raise the spoiler above one speed and lower it below another speed.
http://www.arduino.cc/en/Main/Software
There's plenty of learning material and examples of reading analogue values and switching LEDs on and off.


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

Thanks Pugwash69.


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## Gone (May 5, 2009)

Don't think the spoilers actually create any downforce at all, I thought it was more about disrupting the airflow over the bootlid so the boundary layer separation problem inherent in the design happens differently and avoids the sudden pressure drop that contribues to the back end going light at speed.

If you want downforce you need an aerofoil section, which these spoilers definitelty aren't, so any downforce they create is incidental / accidental.

But as ever that's what I remember from previous threads and may be wrong.


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## Desmodave996 (Jun 2, 2013)

Spoilers SPOIL the air and don't create downforce, as already mentioned you need an aerofoil to create downforce.

The ST205 gt four's wing is a good example, these gave iirc 50kg of downforce at 60mph and was at the time one of the few rear wings to actually do something other than just for looks.

















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

Desmodave996 said:


> and was at the time one of the few rear wings to actually do something other than just for looks.


I think we can all agree that looks weren't a consideration when they designed that wing... :lol:


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

Thank you for your knowledge Desmodave996 and Gone Ape. So there's me trying to figure out how to remove the 'lip' of the Mk2 spoiler without reinstating its rigidity when it doesn't actually need it (?). Plan to do a bit of work on it tomorrow- weather permitting. Anything this enjoyable isn't hard- only looks it.


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## Desmodave996 (Jun 2, 2013)

Spandex said:


> Desmodave996 said:
> 
> 
> > and was at the time one of the few rear wings to actually do something other than just for looks.
> ...


I actually think it's one of the gt four's best features 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MichaelAC (Sep 7, 2009)

I have a lot of respect for you doing this project, as said before I think if they'd designed the Mk1 with a spoiler it would have been one like this rather than fixed. After all, consider the VW Corrado which came out earlier.

However, having driven a 1999 225 TT that didn't have the spoiler added on the recall (just the esp)
I can tell you that the car is not dangerous without it, even cornering at high speed the car was perfectly stable. There are far more dangerous cars out there than a TT without the spoiler. Having said that, I know that there will be many people that have never driven one without the spoiler who will swear that it is dangerous because that's what they were told.

Really interested to see how this project unfolds and just wish that my V6 had one that disappeared at lower speeds


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

longodds said:


> Thank you for your knowledge Desmodave996 and Gone Ape. So there's me trying to figure out how to remove the 'lip' of the Mk2 spoiler without reinstating its rigidity when it doesn't actually need it (?). Plan to do a bit of work on it tomorrow- weather permitting. Anything this enjoyable isn't hard- only looks it.


Just because it's not designed to create downforce doesn't mean it doesn't need structural rigidity. Regardless of the aerodynamic effect on the car overall, you're still jamming a sheet of metal into 70mph+ airflow, so you need it to be strong enough not to deflect.


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## V6RUL (May 28, 2009)

MichaelAC said:


> I have a lot of respect for you doing this project, as said before I think if they'd designed the Mk1 with a spoiler it would have been one like this rather than fixed. After all, consider the VW Corrado which came out earlier.
> 
> However, having driven a 1999 225 TT that didn't have the spoiler added on the recall (just the esp)
> I can tell you that the car is not dangerous without it, even cornering at high speed the car was perfectly stable. There are far more dangerous cars out there than a TT without the spoiler. Having said that, I know that there will be many people that have never driven one without the spoiler who will swear that it is dangerous because that's what they were told.
> ...


My V6 was de-spoilered for a while and under 140mph (Germany) it was fine but above that figure the back end goes light and twitchy.
Steve


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## Gone (May 5, 2009)

The problem isn't so much straight line speed, it's what happens when the driver is travelling at a rate and then lifts off or worse, brakes mid corner. The combined effect of forward weight transfer and the light back end meant a lot of snap oversteer, which is what caused the accidents of legend.

I agree it's not unsafe without the spoiler, provided the car is driven with the potential issue in mind.


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## MichaelAC (Sep 7, 2009)

I would hazard a guess that it isn't the only car that has problems if you let off the throttle or brake at high speed whilst cornering hard I suspect a few cars out there may have a problem:

S200, RX8, Boxter etc....


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

Been doing a bit more work on this project.



Checked the fitment and 95% welded up.



Side view.



With the spoiler resting in place.



Side view.



Reinstated most of the bracing.

Next jobs are to instal bracing for the striker, grind down the welds, linnish everything, shape and reinforce areas with fiberglass, then fill it, prep it and paint it- then I'll move onto the control system.


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

Welded up and ready for fiberglass and filler.


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## nigeltt (Sep 1, 2014)

Hi,
when are you available to fit this on to mine? lol
this is awesome, see it through.


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

How would next week suit you? I'll keep at it- it's a bit of fun.


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

Profiled with fiberglass.



Reinforced with FG.



Reinstating the spoiler's trailing edge.


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

Reformed the spoiler's trailing edge and reinforced it all with fiberglass.



Filling the rest.


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## Boruki (Mar 2, 2014)

I've been following this thread, it's looking good! I'm excited to see the finished product.

If you lived close to Peterborough I'd offer to help with the Arduino programming.


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

Wak said:


> Would this save some hassle?
> http://www.rx4speeding.com/Speed_Activa ... S_24V.html


Well yes and thank you for bringing it to my attention. I ordered and paid for it a couple of weeks back, but despite my inquiries, I've heard nothing since :x Paid with paypal and subsequently made a claim so hopefully I'll get my hard earned back. I now have a speed signal generator that calculates vehicle speed using the Hi and Lo CAN- now I need something to interpret and act on that signal to operate a relay- I think. It's getting bloody complicated, but I'll get there. I'm hoping to fit the modified boot this coming week and have it operating from a simple system that raises it with the ignition switch- for now at least.


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

Gone Ape said:


> Don't think the spoilers actually create any downforce at all, I thought it was more about disrupting the airflow over the bootlid so the boundary layer separation problem inherent in the design happens differently and avoids the sudden pressure drop that contribues to the back end going light at speed.
> 
> If you want downforce you need an aerofoil section, which these spoilers definitelty aren't, so any downforce they create is incidental / accidental.
> 
> But as ever that's what I remember from previous threads and may be wrong.


Am I correct in my understanding of what a spoiler does? By 'spoiling' (disrupting/hindering) the laminar airflow on the upper surface of an object (in this case the rear of my car) that air is slowed down resulting in a pressure increase. The effect of having air at a higher pressure on the top surface (than the lower surface) results in a down-force being applied to the object? It's more of a natural collaboration between surfaces pressures- high pressure at the top and low pressure at the bottom results in a push/pull effect (?)

If the above is wrong- It's too complicated and my brain hurts :?


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

With hindsight there are a few things I should have done differently with this project. The latest 'mistake' is forgetting to incorporate these:



Rain drain pipes to carry water collected in the spoiler mounting plate and divert it away from the inside of my boot to the outer edges of it- so it runs down the gutter. Oh well!


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## Gone (May 5, 2009)

No, not really!

A wing accelerates the fluid (I.e. air in this case) over the convex surface (i.e. the top, if you're talking about an aircraft), which causes a pressure drop over the surface, which creates lift for a conventional aerofoil or downforce for an automotive wing,

A spoiler is nothing to do with deliberately causing a pressure drop, but as said earlier it just spoils the airflow. I'm not an expert in aero and I'm being deliberately vague because (a) I'm not very up on on the subject these days and (b) I can't remember clearly the details of the thread/article I read. However, you could take a look at post #1 on this thread over on vwvortex which shows what happens to the uplift on the car in general with and without the OEM spoiler:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.p ... rodynamics

You could also take a look at the wikipedia pages about spoilers, which have some more general background.

Apologies. 15 years ago I could have given you chapter and verse on some of the finer points of fluid mechanics but I became a chemical engineer instead, so it's all about pressure drop in pipes and vessels for me these days :roll:


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

Gone Ape said:


> No, not really!
> 
> A wing accelerates the fluid (I.e. air in this case) over the convex surface (i.e. the top, if you're talking about an aircraft), which causes a pressure drop over the surface, which creates lift for a conventional aerofoil or downforce for an automotive wing,
> 
> ...


Absolutely no need to apologise as I welcome all input: So I thank you for yours. I'll look at the vwvortex thread you refer to.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

longodds said:


> Wak said:
> 
> 
> > Would this save some hassle?
> ...


This generates a 12v signal below a certain speed:

http://caraudiosecurity.com/analogue-sp ... -interface

But it's designed for low speed operation of aftermarket parking sensors, so it may be that the trigger speed can't be set high enough for your purposes. The alternative is (you guessed it) an arduino. Bit easier counting pulses on on arduino than reading CAN though.


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

Boruki said:


> I've been following this thread, it's looking good! I'm excited to see the finished product.
> 
> If you lived close to Peterborough I'd offer to help with the Arduino programming.


Thank you. It looks as though I'll have to go the Arduino way. Would distance be a problem? I could advise you of what I have and what I would like to achieve with it. I don't mind learning enough of the programming language to make it work, but I would welcome your help. Old dogs can learn new tricks, but old dogs are wise enough to realise that learning new tricks takes time that they don't have. All and any help with a problem will always be welcome.


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

Accidentally repeated post


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## Boruki (Mar 2, 2014)

I never really got on well doing dev work over distance, even concepting artwork for a game over the net did my head in.

I know C/C++ and I helped my brother make a level crossing using Arduino. My suggestion would be that you have a go at getting in to the basics of it and I can help with questions as you get through some stuff? The interfacing between the systems is the but I wouldn't know a great deal about the start with. It's all relatively simple if you break it down though!

Arduino uses its own IDE for writing functions and it's much easier to get a good flow going when you've got the hardware to test on with you .


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## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

Gone Ape said:


> No, not really!
> 
> A wing accelerates the fluid (I.e. air in this case) over the convex surface (i.e. the top, if you're talking about an aircraft), which causes a pressure drop over the surface, which creates lift for a conventional aerofoil or downforce for an automotive wing,
> 
> ...


I fly..a bit 

speedbrakes,airbrakes /slots slats in acft do disrupt airflow n reduce lift.Sometimes theyre just things that stick out  to slow you down,like sticking your hand out the window :lol:

F1 and the like reverse aerofoils in the aerodynamic sense are just ,air has to travel further over the curved surface so has to travel faster, so the molecules thin out n so on in their rush to get to the other side,rather than takin it easy like the guys on the flat side ..yawn..nothing much really happens below 60 in cars afaik but low airspeed in light a/c like 40 kt its very important .

The TT spoilers..while they do "spoil" the airflow.. "little curly trails behind the trailing edge in a wind tunnel" wind resistance/slower speed, arent afaik a true aerofoil design.
In the sense that its purely the "push" on the upper surface of the spoiler at speed that depresses the rear end.

Any car (I think) is like an aerofoil, if it goes fast enough .Underside will be comparatively flat ,the upper part air will have a lot further to travel so gonna get lift,if the engine is powerfull enough to over come the air resistance 
_Unless of course as in like my veyron you can lower the car prior to a hi speed run with my special key .. .My lower veyron in this case creates a mini ground effect venturi .the speed of the air passing under the car sucks the car lower to the ground rather than allowing it to take flight. and then I woke up _

The TT rear spoiler(design afterthought in the mk1),logic suggests is to push the rear down at speed,what speed I dunno and even if the spoiler reduces the max top speed cos of drag.
225 audi quotes of top speed,151 mph or so might even be without spoiler?
qs 240 155mph shouldnt be?

Of course for those of you with,I dunno 400 bhp TT mk1's, maybe there is a point as you approach 185 mph :lol: that there is so much down pressure on the spoiler that the front end begins to rise beyond a reasonable angle of attack and its the front,not the rear that will become "light".. and so you will stall and crash and burn!

It just seems to me


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

Normally air flows faster over the top of the car than underneath, creating lift just like a wing. A spoiler sticks up into this fast flowing air, creating a pool of turbulent air over the boot lid (ahead of the spoiler) which reduces the speed of the airflow and thus reduces lift. No different to the deployable spoilers fitted to aircraft wings to reduce lift, allowing the plane to descend without increasing forward velocity.


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## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

Spandex said:


> Normally air flows faster over the top of the car than underneath, creating lift just like a wing. A spoiler sticks up into this fast flowing air, creating a pool of turbulent air over the boot lid (ahead of the spoiler) which reduces the speed of the airflow and thus reduces lift. No different to the deployable spoilers fitted to aircraft wings to reduce lift, allowing the plane to descend without increasing forward velocity.


mm no in this case its the air pressure above the "spoiler" like a hand pushing down,cos the air like the chicken has to get to the other side in "x"time.The aerodynamics below the spoiler trailing edge ,like the semi vacuum induced will only help to push down as the air tries to "force" the top edge of the spoiler and the closest part of the bodywork together.
ie , if the mk1 tt spoiler was hinged, even with a spring to hold it open, so that it could fold flat into the body somewhat like the op is up to.
What would happen?
The air pressure on the spoiler would force the spoiler to lower as speed increased cos of the force applied to it.
If the spoiler is fixed in place,where does this force go?.its transfered directly down thru the spoiler cos it cant collapse ,the force being dependent on the amount of air pressure/the cars speed.

Aircraft dynamics . well with flaps you can increase lift at a lower airspeed..which is the whole point of using them , its not to decrease lift.
I suppose you could think of flaps as reverse TT spoilers,changing the angle of attack of the upper body surface, except in this case,the spoiler/flap works in the opposite direction and produces increased lift/depression without rotating the aircraft/car around the col/cog cos the tyres/suspension hold it reasonably constant.
Its not like we can lower the nose a lil on the TT by pushing the wheel forward

Im not sure why the v6 has a big fat extended spoiler compared to the 1.8.There must be a speed at which the rear downforce exceedsthe requirement to keep the rear stuck to the road and the front starts to lift too much.
Maybe the v6 spoiler is bigger to compensate for the extra v6 front weight?


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

Flaps on an aircraft change the wings angle of attack, allowing a lower speed without stalling (again, useful for landing), but are nothing to do with the spoilers. Flaps deploy downwards (or slide down and back on most large aircraft) whereas spoilers deploy upwards.

Car spoilers don't work by simply sticking up into the airflow and creating a downwards force. They change the aerodynamics at the back to reduce lift, exactly as they do with an aircraft wing. If you look out the window at the wing when you're coming in to land in a commercial jet you'll see both flaps and spoilers deploy. You want to reduce lift to land, not increase it.


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## Gone (May 5, 2009)

There's a couple of fundamental fallacies in the above posts. The air over a wing absolutely does not travel faster because it has to get to the other end in the time as the air over the bottom. This is what everyone assumes, perhaps because of cack handed science articles in newspapers, magazines or TV etc. If two particles of air arrive at the leading edge at the same moment, why should they have to meet again at exactly the same time at the trailing edge? All particles of air are alike, in the most basic sense (OK there's 79.mm% nitrogen, 20.nn% oxygen and some other bits), so what does it matter that the air from the top and bottom arrive at the same time? Not a jot.

What actually happens is that somewhere above the wing the air is flat, i.e. it hasn't had to pass over a convex surface, and somewhere below the wing the air is flat, i.e. it hasn't had to pass under a concave surface. Now if you look at the aircraft from the front, the cross section area of the space between the wing and the flat section of air above the wing reduces as you move over the wing from front to back, because of the shape of the wing. When fluid passes through a restriction, it accelerates, simply because the volumetric flow rate (cubic feet per second) must be the same throughout the section. You can't have (say) 100 cubic feet per second of air entering the section and 150 cubic feet per second exiting the section - where does the extra 50 cft/s come from? This is the same for a pipe as it is for the space above an aerofoil.

Similarly, the air velocity decreases underneath the wing, and the resulting pressure difference is called lift (or downforce).

The second error is connected to the above discourse, and is to do with flaps and slats. Their purpose is to increase the lift generated by the wing during low speed manoeuvre i.e. take off and landing, by changing the shape of the wing to increase the curvature. They slow down the air passing under the wing (increasing the pressure) and accelerate the air over the wing (reducing the pressure). This is essential because if the aircraft (say a 747 for sake of argument) tried to land without the flaps and slats, it would touchdown at around the 300-400mph mark (after wrecking the undercarriage from the high speed airflow around it) which would require an impracticably long runway and be rather uncomfortable for the passengers.

The surfaces on top of the wing are not spoilers ( I think), although they will have a spoiling effect. They are actually speed brakes, to help slow the aircraft down. Coming out of the throttle in a large body with a lot of momentum takes a long time to slow it down, rather like trying to use acceleration sense to slow down with an automatic transmission. Off gas, coast along like nothing has happened.

Sorry for the lecture. I don't know a great deal about aerodynamics but I do know the above and it really gets my goat when people talk about the air having to meet in the same place, because it's illogical and bad science!

As for the boundary layer separation, when the fluid flows over a smooth surface like a wing or a car body, the particles immediately adjacent to the surface are stationary (believe it or not!) and there is a velocity gradient moving away from the surface to meet the bulk velocity of the fluid (100 mph, say). The boundary layer where the particles are virtually stationary moves with the body, with laminar (i.e. smooth) flow above it. There is some critical speed above which the flow goes turbulent and there the boundary layer separates from the surface. The turbulent flow causes a big pressure drop, which causes the wing to stall and the aircraft to lose lift (or to thrust the back on a TT upwards). This is managed on high speed aircraft by raking the wings back (lightning), moving wings (Tornado) or by having a huge delta wing, e.g. Vulcan, Concorde etc. The military aircraft have to have a high landing speed to manage the lower lift generated by these wings at landing speed, which is why some of them have parachutes at the back.

AFAICR the spolier makes the boundary layer separate behind the car, rather than over the bootlid.


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## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

Lets assume weve all done our ppl cpl and atpl ,perhaps.Know our chord lines,col cog and all that stuff

Spoilers in general do stick up into the airflow on aicraft wings tho on larger ones there are variations with the introduction of slots and slats and air brakes.
Ailerons for example are both "flaps" and "spoilers" depending on which way you bank.
It isnt some build up of disturbed air somewhere ahead of the up aileron or spoiler that pushes the right wing down if banking right for example nor is it just the left wing lifting ,its direct air pressure with a consequent vacuum behind/under the aileron/spoiler.
Drag is introduced as well but no need to delve into that too much.
The spoiler on the TT at speed doesnt just reduce lift by breaking up airflow. look at it another way the faster you go the more the rear is pushed down.
This will/should make the front end lighter,in comparrison to a non spoiler equipped TT.ie the spoiler is active providing downward force, not just preventing upward force.
Of course if it was a full stand alone aerofoil on stays the pressures would be easier to follow.

Simplest way to illustrate is with a hand ,stick it out above the windscreen of a roadster at speed and youll feel the wind pressing it back.Angle your hand backwards a bit and the pressure will reduce ,but its still there not somewhere out on the windscreen.

Aircraft landing and reducing lift to land.Not exactly
You need as much lift as possible at landing airspeed to land . You try and reduce the stall speed while still getting airflow over control surfaces.
Ideally You want to "stick" /touchdown at stall speed..of course thats airspeed not g/s.
Its why a/c land into the wind . You need as much lift as possible at the slowest practical groundspeed.
Ive landed at 4 or 5mph walking pace(on a light a/c obviously) larger ones have much higher take off and landing speed.

The reason being there was a pretty constant 35kt headwind so until touchdown as far as the a/c knew it was travelling at at least 40.
Course with that kind of hi wind you have to be very carefull to hold the nose down after touch down,turn the ailerons the correct way to get off the runway without lifting a wing n so on.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

How spoilers work (on aeroplanes and cars) is well documented all over the web. They definitely reduce lift, and that is their purpose in both situations. Too much lift while trying to land an aircraft isnt that useful.


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## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

Spandex said:


> How spoilers work (on aeroplanes and cars) is well documented all over the web. They definitely reduce lift, and that is their purpose in both situations. Too much lift while trying to land an aircraft isnt that useful.


 :lol: really? well Id have to say,whatever makes you happy ,if you think the TT spoiler just reduces lift by some air disruption somewhere along the boot lid prior to the spoiler and your ac landing experience doesnt find lift usefull,gl to ya.

I do think we may be wandering off the op's thread .

At this point..you may have have "the last post",whatever it might be. and it may even include vids of superman flying,but probably not these
<another edit> Yes I do think were beginning to get through 
we now have the acceptance of pressure as a concept rather than some nebulous disturbance of air somewhere ahead of the tt spoiler reducing lift "somehow".
Of course there is a pressure buildup slightly ahead of and at the leading edge of the spoiler,its even there before the spoiler is raised due to the hump at the base of the screen.Its air building up because its starting to be compressed.

However you can also see how the air pressure increases as it ascends the spoiler,or if you like is forced to ascend it,
acting directly on the spoileritself

What about at the trailing edge and towards the side edges?.The red seems to be easing off?
Thats the "thanks be ta jaysus lads" effect. The air molecules like the ribena berries can see the end in sight n start so spill out the top/sides and start to spread apart again.
Well its actually the molecules that have "fallen off" ahead of them that are starting to ease the pressure on those behind.

So whats happening on the underside of the the tt spoiler ? ,the pressure is less than above it otherwise there would be no downward force ,a partial vacuum.
It isnt the spoiler somehow making the upper bodywork less like the upper surface of a wing ,its just air pressure.
It acts by itself in the prevailing airflow creating downforce.You can describe it as reducing lift ,but its more adding downward force or subtracting some of the lift.It doesnt make the air go all curly breakaway up high, thats a consequence of the cars own shape, like a golf when the air gets to the rear its gonna get disturbed mighty fast because of the sudden transition for the air, at speed.






The second clip is more for easier illustration of a full aerofoil(also included in the Matchbox IT vid,tho Im not sure what thats supposed to be testing..which shape provides the least drag or something?) and how, it provides downforce when the bernouli thing  is separated from the car or at least held at the sides.It also acts on the air passing over it,both above and below but is easier to follow. 
Air hitting the leading edge will separate and do the thing..more pressure above, less under it and create negative lift or downward force. Its not improving /varying the airflow characteristics of shape of the car to make it lift less at speed either.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

3TT3 said:


> Spandex said:
> 
> 
> > How spoilers work (on aeroplanes and cars) is well documented all over the web. They definitely reduce lift, and that is their purpose in both situations. Too much lift while trying to land an aircraft isnt that useful.
> ...


Thanks. I didnt say lift wasn't useful. Obviously it is otherwise you wouldn't be in the air in the first place. *Too much* lift however, is not useful.

<edit>Here's a video from MIT that explains it. There's even a nice diagram showing the turbulence ahead of the spoiler.






<edit2> The first of your videos shows the pressure increase ahead of the spoiler (thus reducing lift, as lift is caused by the pressure difference between the upper and lower surfaces of the car or wing), and the second of your videos shows a 'wing' rather than a 'spoiler'. Not sure why you've included that.


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

The active spoiler control circuit will be based on this.



With the addition of these [smiley=bigcry.gif]



How? No idea...... yet [smiley=book2.gif]


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## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

longodds said:


> The active spoiler control circuit will be based on this.
> 
> With the addition of these [smiley=bigcry.gif]
> 
> How? No idea...... yet [smiley=book2.gif]


Looks like hrs of fun,much more interesting than my boring retrofit cruise control which Im in the process of,with writeups n everything to help!.


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

Your wrap's coming along nicely.


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

Filling's done- thank heaven for that.


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## arichmond64 (Dec 1, 2011)

Can't wait to see this!


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## jamman (May 6, 2002)

Very interested to see the finished results

Looking good so far.


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## fixitagaintomoz (Apr 26, 2013)

This does look good! Really intrigued to see it working now I must admit....


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## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

longodds said:


> Your wrap's coming along nicely.


Thx,slowly would be more like it  ,but since you mention it:

Its something to consider once you get the operation worked out.Seeing your filling done pic.A heavy hi build primer ,once the filler has dried ..great.
A wrap tho, unless its very thin will cover minor imperfections down to about 1200 grade in my experience and if you get any flex on the hatch with the structural changes,it may help.
+ if you get a thicker one itll close panel gaps gaps even more.

Use some 3m 94 primer and it wont peel around edges or concave applications.
Convex,bend around ,it will just tighten everything up, and last in my experience 3 years at least..
An idea/suggestion,even if its just for a week or 2 when you get setup on the operation.


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

After a couple of coats of hi-build 2 pack primer thinned just enough to get it out of the gun.





I'll slam on a couple of wetter coats later, then tomorrow I'll check it against the car (again) with the striker fitted. After any late minor adjustments it'll be time to prep the surface ready for painting.


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## MrQaud (Jun 5, 2013)

Looking very 8) . You'll need to start doing these for other people once you get it all working! I'd pay to have this done


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## V6RUL (May 28, 2009)

MrQaud said:


> Looking very 8) . You'll need to start doing these for other people once you get it all working! I'd pay to have this done


I would be surprised if the OP wants to go through this pain again..
Steve


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## Abell (Jan 15, 2012)

Great job, good work! Looking to seeing this.


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

V6RUL said:


> MrQaud said:
> 
> 
> > Looking very 8) . You'll need to start doing these for other people once you get it all working! I'd pay to have this done
> ...


The OP doesn't, as it's an awful lot of work, but he might be tempted for loads and loads of wonga 
It will have been worth my effort if the finished result is what I hope it to be, but given the cost of parts and the amount of labour involved, probably not cost effective to reproduce it (see first sentence :wink: )


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

The project's coming along nicely.



But, it's definitely gotten out of hand :lol:


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## infidel.uk (Feb 21, 2015)

All that just for a spoiler, lol


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## triplefan (Sep 3, 2008)

Please tell me the bowl of water is for the wet and dry and that you haven't contaminated your dogs drinking water :lol:


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

'Sorry for the lecture.' Nothing wrong with lectures- their intent is to inform. I found that and the posts you were replying to both interesting and informative.

Did Orville and Wilbur know any of this? If not, they changed the paradigm- not bad for a couple of bicycle guys.


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

infidel.uk said:


> All that just for a spoiler, lol


No. All that for a challenge


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## jamman (May 6, 2002)

longodds said:


> infidel.uk said:
> 
> 
> > All that just for a spoiler, lol
> ...


Too right it's all about the details


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

triplefan said:


> Please tell me the bowl of water is for the wet and dry and that you haven't contaminated your dogs drinking water :lol:


Rest assured that the mixing bowl is for the wet and dry... for now: Later it will be used to mix recipe ingredients for family and friends. My dog died last week from drinking brake fluid- complications resulting in pneumonia I understand. With the benefit of hindsight, I shouldn't have used Fluff's bowl to bleed my brakes. RIP Fluffy [smiley=bigcry.gif] . You live and learn though hey! As I'm reminiscing, I think I should have named Fluffy Forrest because stupid is as stupid does and Fluffy was too stupid to tell the difference between brake fluid and water.


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## infidel.uk (Feb 21, 2015)

longodds said:


> infidel.uk said:
> 
> 
> > All that just for a spoiler, lol
> ...


I was referring to the state of your kitchen. :? 

Spoilers looking ok tho....


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

infidel.uk said:


> longodds said:
> 
> 
> > infidel.uk said:
> ...


I know  . First do spoiler- the task at hand- then do kitchen. Then concentrate on day job; then washing up, dusting, vacuuming and polishing.


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

Fitted the boot and disappointed to see it's all over the shop. Contours are out with highs and lows everywhere and the active spoiler's shuts are far too big.









Not exactly back to the drawing board, but certainly back to filling and flatting tomorrow. I also suspect that when raised the spoiler will block the view of the high level brake light- ideas?


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

Checked the high level brake light and it seems visible with the spoiler up.





I think I like it. Probably love it when it's done and painted.



I feel it looks more sophisticated and aggressive than the standard offering.


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## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

For the light,restrict the rise height to where the "normal one " would be, or maybe a little above.

Shuts are too big? fouling on the bodywork below? or you just mean you think the gaps are too big?.

Looks good except in the last pic , There will be less contrast too when its painted .

If it was a solid/unfilled bit of metal Id suggest a bit of bending or higher rubber strips under it when it closes,but that might crack the filler 
I know you want to finish but, would using it as is for now be an option for awhile to test ?

Im just wondering if when you use it at speed ,could there be enough forces acting on it to make it vibrate/crack or twist.
If anything like that happened now,you could add in extra spars/remount the lifts or something before getting back to getting the finish appearance dead right?

Maybe.

edit:Heh forget the above, you posted more, looks really good so far!


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## triplefan (Sep 3, 2008)

Looks promising, just a few small tweaks, I reckon it's gonna look great


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## BIGKIRBS (May 9, 2015)

Looks good mate, different and will set it apart.


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

.


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

MrQaud said:


> Looking very 8) . You'll need to start doing these for other people once you get it all working! I'd pay to have this done


I doubt I or anyone else could produce these commercially- at a reasonable cost- by modifying a standard boot lid, but, having thought about other production methods, I could possibly produce and supply it in kit form. I envisage the kit would comprise of a complete fiberglass boot lid (I know what you're thinking- FIBERGLASS! :? Think more _AUDI quality_ fiberglass  - it can be done), either a laminate/fiberglass or carbon fibre spoiler 'blade' and a (pre-programmed) microcontroller based speed dependent control system with fitting and wiring instructions. All an owner would need do is purchase a (used?) Mk2 spoiler 'motor assembly', have the boot lid and spoiler blade sprayed their chosen colour, drop the 'motor assembly' into the boot lid, fix the spoiler blade to it, add their standard boot lid trim- striker plate; number plate lights and badges etc and fit the whole assembly to the car, then wire it up following the instructions: That would be straight forward enough.

'I'd pay to have this done.' Interesting! My question then is,_* what would you pay to add this quite unique mod to your TT*_?

I wonder how many Mk1's worldwide have this mod- any ideas anyone?


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

3TT3 said:


> For the light,restrict the rise height to where the "normal one " would be, or maybe a little above.
> 
> Shuts are too big? fouling on the bodywork below? or you just mean you think the gaps are too big?.
> 
> ...


Yes, I meant the gaps are too big- easily fixed though as are the highs and lows. I'll be using it as is for now as it's more convenient to work on it fitted and it will act as an incentive for me to finish it, not that I need one.

I'm unsure if the forces on it would be enough to make it vibrate/crack or twist. As it's mainly steel and fiberglass it's quite rigid and robust, but twisting would be a problem if they are. The catastrophe would be it flying off; I'll be sure to use Loctite on the fixing bolts


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## Boruki (Mar 2, 2014)

I'm really impressed with the project and can't wait to see it finished.

A kit would be interesting but I think beyond my scope price wise. I think I'd probably enjoy the process more than having it just done for me as well. I was looking at the concept of a folding hardtop for the mk1 but haven't gotten far as I spend time fixing stuff instead and I also really need a spare roof frame to really do it properly.

Look forward to more updates!


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## triplefan (Sep 3, 2008)

longodds said:


> MrQaud said:
> 
> 
> > Looking very 8) . You'll need to start doing these for other people once you get it all working! I'd pay to have this done
> ...


If you're not gonna do a version for us coupe owners I might have to buy another roadster :lol:


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

triplefan said:


> longodds said:
> 
> 
> > MrQaud said:
> ...


 I'm sure a coupe version would be possible, but I'm not sure it could at a reasonable price :?


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## 1781cc (Jan 25, 2015)

kudos to you, nice bit of lateral thinking and I think it looks ace


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

Not done much lately due to lack of time and bad weather. I've found an electronics engineer in Sri Lanka who's working on designing a control schematic and program code for me to complete the project.


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## FiveDirty (Apr 12, 2015)

10 out of 10 mate.
That's a great example of home engineering.
I think it looks excellent, is unique and you deserve full credit for that.
Look forward to seeing it when you finish the paint.

On a slightly lower level, my own little project is coming on well too:


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

FiveDirty said:


> 10 out of 10 mate.
> That's a great example of home engineering.
> I think it looks excellent, is unique and a you deserve full credit for that.
> Look forward to seeing it when you finish the paint.
> ...


That will look fantastic when it's been painted. :lol:


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## PeterW (Dec 30, 2014)

look good great work


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

This has now become a time consuming chore, but I did find time do a bit today. It looks like a retrospective step, but it's all part and parcel of the job- one apparent step back brings you two steps closer to your goal



Closed the shuts and evened out the (enough for me now) highs and lows. Why did I even start this!? Oh, I remember the word- individualism


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## Hoggy (May 8, 2002)

Hi, Keep at it, I'm sure it will look fine. Respect for your dedication. 8) 
Hoggy.


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

FiveDirty said:


> 10 out of 10 mate.
> That's a great example of home engineering.
> I think it looks excellent, is unique and you deserve full credit for that.
> Look forward to seeing it when you finish the paint.
> ...


Having spent half a day toiling, I now think I should have opted for a spoiler something like yours;



Well thought out and less time consuming to install. Plus I wouldn't need a speed dependent control circuit either- just a bit of string. I'm bloody gutted!


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

Hoggy said:


> Hi, Keep at it, I'm sure it will look fine. Respect for your dedication. 8)
> Hoggy.


Thank you for your encouragement Hoggy.  I thought you didn't like the Mk2 spoiler?  (I want to give up now, but I can't, never could, so I wont)


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## Hoggy (May 8, 2002)

Hi Longodds, I wouldn't want it on a MK1 or a Mk2 but can't discourage you & admire perseverance. 8) 
Hoggy.


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## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

I felt a bit like that when I was doing my wrap.."why didnt I primer the concave parts!" lot more work after with v high heat n so on...
I wouldnt have thought it needed that much backwards work,then again "Im a ,well no that isnt quite right, perfectionist too" at least until I get to the fook it itll do,Ill go have a beer stage 

One other (mho) and its just a personal viewpoint on looks.
I wouldnt pay/do any mods on my coupe to have the original clean look.I wouldnt like an extended v6 spoiler or the extended spoiler to the rear wings(I forget what its called)either.
For a roadster either soft top or with the hard top addon,I would.


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## triplefan (Sep 3, 2008)

longodds said:


> I want to give up now, but I can't


Stubbornness or dedication? It's man vs machine and I know who's going to win...plus at the end of the day it will look (and be) cool.

It's just a shame that you were slightly slower to market than FiveDirty, it'll be a difficult decision for me to choose which one to go for, do you think you could plagiarise the lateral restraints and add something like that to yours, take a couple of chairs the right height and it would be just perfect as a picnic table and stop the cups sliding off.


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## Boruki (Mar 2, 2014)

It's looking very good . I think you may manage to keep the 'individuality' by showing everyone the level of work involved in doing it .


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## FiveDirty (Apr 12, 2015)

3TT3 said:


> a difficult decision for me to choose which one to go for


I'm surprised at the interest in my own 'enjinering' project. So much so, I decided to take the plunge and offer mine as a kit. Available directly from myself, (Or Halfords) cash only please. Discount for Forum members. Just Quote "Yea Right" when ordering.









Stage 1 - £400.00









Stage 2 - £730.00









Installation kit - includes all fixings, tools, adapters, Mig welder, compressor, spray booth and paint. (Where applicable and subject to terms) - £275.00

Apologies to Longodds - Even though mine looks like being a commercial success, yours is still a touch classier and maybe a little more technical. I'm looking forward to seeing it all painted up. Video in action too maybe?


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## kettle (Oct 12, 2009)

cardboard aside...
That actually looks a lot better than I was expecting. Do prefer my shiny QS one though 
Well done


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

FiveDirty said:


> 3TT3 said:
> 
> 
> > a difficult decision for me to choose which one to go for
> ...


The stage 2 is a bit over my current budget, but I'm taken with the stage 1 kit as, unlike my own pathetic effort, you have kept the design simply and not over engineered. The clincher for me though is the price of the installation kit- absolute bargain. I shall be ordering the above just as soon as I've filled in that stupid hole in my boot lid- what was I thinking. I wish you luck with your venture and I'm sure there will be a great demand for it.

Now where did I put that string.


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

triplefan said:


> longodds said:
> 
> 
> > I want to give up now, but I can't
> ...


Yes, FiveDirty has taken the KISS approach and not over engineered his elegant design. He's now offering his spoiler in kit form- with a generous discount to forum members to boot. If I don't make quicker progress, soon I might scrap my own effort and purchase his. If I do, I'll modify his design slightly by fitting a couple of ring pulls so that a bit of string can pull the top of the spoiler sideways- thus making it manually active.


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## FiveDirty (Apr 12, 2015)

Hey, Longodds - On a serious note, your so close to getting this finished you can't give up yet. Hope you appreciate the cardboard spoiler is only the ramblings of a guy bored at work and its not meant to reflect on your herculean efforts in any way.


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

FiveDirty said:


> Hey, Longodds - On a serious note, your so close to getting this finished you can't give up yet. Hope you appreciate the cardboard spoiler is only the ramblings of a guy bored at work and its not meant to reflect on your herculean efforts in any way.


On a serious note I've no intention of giving up- ever  I filled some pinholes and flatted it today ready to primer it again tomorrow. Then I'll need a nice, dry, sunny day to spray it.

I thought your spoiler was a wonderful example of humor and I took it in good jest. My replies to your posts regarding it were jocular and I think you made good use of your moment of boredom at work to raise a few smiles 

I don't really do 'lol's' and most times I don't display smileys in my posts, but I do tend to write with my tongue firmly in cheek (I think I shouldn't have posted the one about babies, or the one about the passing of my non existent pet dog though :lol: )

Can I have a further discount on your stage 2 spoiler as I have some Xmas paper to wrap it, should look much better than carbon fiber and give my car a more 'distinctive' look


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

Back in primer. I don't exactly have the best working conditions, but needs must. I'll leave it a few days now until I have ample time to finish the prep as I found myself rushing the job today, which aint good.


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## triplefan (Sep 3, 2008)

Looking good, love the colour coded brickwork and paving...


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## triplefan (Sep 3, 2008)

Any more updates?


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## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

Just think ,in a couple of hundred years Baldric's replacement and Time team will be finding red bricks covered in hi build primer, using geofizz  and 
Wondering "wth?"


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

I'm waiting on Hareenmadusha from Sri Lanka to provide the speed dependent control system's schematic- with a few options, like- spoiler always up with ignition on; spoiler self check- where it rises when I turn the ignition on, stays there for 5 seconds before descending and illuminating a LED to indicate it's in working mode. No point me prepping and painting it until then really. Aint the internet great?


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

Sprayed the underside of some panels. Hoping to get the upper sides painted today so that I can assemble and fit it over the weekend. In the meantime I'll try and make the control circuit ready for testing- there are bound to be snags in the circuit.


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

Guide coat flatted ready for paint and lacquer tomorrow. I now have the controls schematic and am waiting for some components. Almost there though- bar any snags.


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## triplefan (Sep 3, 2008)

Looking forward to the pics of the colour coded settee and flooring


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## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

Hmm how strange ..
I was looking to see were there any red spoiler pics on TT's and this came up.
I think they may be coloured reddish just to show what youre buying but.
The concept of fitting a fixed spoiler to a lifting one [smiley=freak.gif] ..almost the exact opposite of what youre doing man..does yer ead in 
http://www.hofele.com/en/produkte/audi/ ... en_11.html


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

triplefan said:


> Looking forward to the pics of the colour coded settee and flooring


 . I'll be colour coding something, just not the sofa or flooring. You'll see later


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## triplefan (Sep 3, 2008)

longodds said:


> triplefan said:
> 
> 
> > Looking forward to the pics of the colour coded settee and flooring
> ...


Hmmm, how intriguing, I wonder what that could be...


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

I've come in while the lacquer tacks off ready for it's last coat of gloss. Fighting the bloody elements- threat of rain, gusty wind, stupid bloody greenflies, dust, dirt and other wind blown debris :x . Can't do much about it now, so I'm hoping to be able to flat and polish the imperfections near enough out when the coats harden. It looks a bit of a mess at the moment [smiley=bigcry.gif] .


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## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

longodds said:


> I've come in while the lacquer tacks off ready for it's last coat of gloss. Fighting the bloody elements- threat of rain, gusty wind, stupid bloody greenflies, dust, dirt and other wind blown debris :x . Can't do much about it now, so I'm hoping to be able to flat and polish the imperfections near enough out when the coats harden. It looks a bit of a mess at the moment [smiley=bigcry.gif] .


I never could paint for sheet,altho I did put gloss on the lower grilles from a can ok.
My one attempt at a bonnet had every fault imaginable,orange peel,bloom.dust,who knew there were so many insects around etc  .
Judging by the last time,yours will turn out as new..eventually!


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

Done one last coat. Was going to apply another, but there's too much shit in the last coat- so wasted 1/2 liter of lacquer [smiley=bigcry.gif] . All I can do now is stay away from it as it drys (and I didn't spray my sofa  ).



This is the main blob- some sort of airborne seed (centre of picture)- resting in my nice, new, shiny top coat :x .


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

I_ 'think' _ I now have all of the components I need to make the- quite sophisticated- spoiler control system. It consist of all the the items in the photo plus the motor and micro switches on the spoiler as well as a lot of wire (not shown).



It probably looks more complicated than it is as I have a schematic diagram to follow [smiley=book2.gif]

Now, where's that soldering iron....


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

longodds said:


> I_ 'think' _ I now have all of the components I need to make the- quite sophisticated- spoiler control system. It consist of all the the items in the photo plus the motor and micro switches on the spoiler as well as a lot of wire (not shown).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Does anyone know what I'm supposed to do with it? [smiley=book2.gif] [smiley=bigcry.gif]


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## triplefan (Sep 3, 2008)

All you need to do is connect it all together...simples


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## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

The fuses will have connections at both ends.
That thing that looks like a very holey waffle is called a breadboard I believe:You stick the things with spikey ends in there and some wires too.
I see a 3 pole switch and some printed circuit boards.3 pole switch might be for up and down .
Printed circuit boards have very small components ..on them and micro chips! which are like a printed circuit board in miniature.
They I would think "do stuff". I think I also see some pottymeters and a couple of black boxes.One of those could be a transformer!..The other,Id say falls into the "does stuff" category.
Looks fairly straightforward, if you have any probs send me a pm.Some of the terms I used might be a bit techie :lol:

ie I would have as much insight as regards connections as one of baldric's turnips .


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

triplefan said:


> All you need to do is connect it all together...simples


Now that you've put it like that I understand :lol: . I'll crack on with it tomorrow as I'll be fitting the boot lid today  .


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

3TT3 said:


> The fuses will have connections at both ends.
> That thing that looks like a very holey waffle is called a breadboard I believe:You stick the things with spikey ends in there and some wires too.
> I see a 3 pole switch and some printed circuit boards.3 pole switch might be for up and down .
> Printed circuit boards have very small components ..on them and micro chips! which are like a printed circuit board in miniature.
> ...


Thanks for clearing that up :lol: . Now I know what it all does all I need to do is take triplefan's advice and connect it all up and, as you say, it should do stuff- hopefully becoming a computer controlled system to automatically control my spoiler  . POP


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

Decided not to fit it until I have built and 'bench tested' the control system so I put it back together today and, although it needs a minor adjustment, some Loctite on the spoiler bolts and a mop, I'm very pleased with the result of my efforts 







I'll try and find time to start on the circuitry tomorrow.


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## Nem (Feb 14, 2005)

That really is looking good now


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## Spliffy (May 3, 2013)

That looks great !


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## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

Looks even better than last time, actual body colour helps too!


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## V6RUL (May 28, 2009)

Top work..looks OEM..or maybe I shouldn't say that..
Steve


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

Thanks fellas- really appreciate everyone's comments . Can't wait to get it fitted and working correctly as I love mods or additions that look good, but also do something- particularly if it's something practical.

It's got me thinking about an active front foil/splitter- if I can research the dynamics of it. I think that would be easier to do than the boot spoiler because I wouldn't be as constrained (by having to adapt to the dimensions of a standard panel/part).

Maybe I'll add a pair of wings later


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

V6RUL said:


> Top work..looks OEM..or maybe I shouldn't say that..
> Steve


Cheers- that's the look I was after- OEM.


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## V6RUL (May 28, 2009)

I have given you some positive news on the rpm tapping point on your other thread.
Steve


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## triplefan (Sep 3, 2008)

Russell, that looks the dogs danglies...hats off to you mate, get the control gear done and I'm looking forward to the video


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## BIGKIRBS (May 9, 2015)

Liking this spoiler a lot. Top job


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## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

Did you investigate the mk2 setup?
or maybe there is alot of info in the mk2 forum.. Over 8 years some mk2 spoilers/lifting mechanisms must have failed? and "how I fixed mine" posts?


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## misano03 (Nov 21, 2014)

It's meant to be red to match my car!!! :lol: 8)


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

3TT3 said:


> Did you investigate the mk2 setup?
> or maybe there is alot of info in the mk2 forum.. Over 8 years some mk2 spoilers/lifting mechanisms must have failed? and "how I fixed mine" posts?


If the Mk2 spoiler I have fails I'll buy another. It only comprises a little motor and two micro switches: The rest you could bounce a brick off to no ill effect. As in life- take care of the big stuff and don't become despondent about the small, erm- details


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

triplefan said:


> Russell, that looks the dogs danglies...hats off to you mate, get the control gear done and I'm looking forward to the video


Colour coded the 'wee thing' while I was at it


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

In for a penny, in for a pound.



Now the mechanism's black, which I can live with, rather than making a cover for it.


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## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

longodds said:


> 3TT3 said:
> 
> 
> > Did you investigate the mk2 setup?
> ...


 I was thinking more in terms of the control circuitry or "electricery"  of a MK2 back at the ecu/uch level for controlling the "does stuff" aspect :lol:


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

3TT3 said:


> longodds said:
> 
> 
> > 3TT3 said:
> ...


It didn't, but perhaps should have. I assumed the whole loom, ecu etc would be different. My setup, when I build and get it working, will allow me more options than the standard one- I think.


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## triplefan (Sep 3, 2008)

Whilst looking at the underside it got me wondering about the rigidity of the lid as the catch is on the far side of the cut-out section, have you needed to strengthen it or does the mechanism stiffen it up once fitted and tightened up?


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

triplefan said:


> Whilst looking at the underside it got me wondering about the rigidity of the lid as the catch is on the far side of the cut-out section, have you needed to strengthen it or does the mechanism stiffen it up once fitted and tightened up?


It has its original reinforcement plate behind it and I added extra strengthening before welding it up. It's going nowhere  .

  Thanks


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## triplefan (Sep 3, 2008)

longodds said:


> triplefan said:
> 
> 
> > Whilst looking at the underside it got me wondering about the rigidity of the lid as the catch is on the far side of the cut-out section, have you needed to strengthen it or does the mechanism stiffen it up once fitted and tightened up?
> ...


Glad you like it :wink:


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## FiveDirty (Apr 12, 2015)

10 out of 10 for this project. Doesn't get much more OEM looking than that!



longodds said:


> It's got me thinking about an active front foil/splitter


Had an R33 Skyline many years ago and that had an active front spoiler / lip. Seem to remember it was electric and I think there were two motors that did the work. Used to come down with a hefty thump when activated. I'm pretty sure it could handle much more weight than the original lump. Whatever, it was simple and worked perfect at some predetermined speed. Mine was originally automatic and I did add a manual switch but can't remember too much about it all. Just a thought but with plenty around being scrapped or having revised fronts fitted, it might be worth looking into the mechanism ?

Just found a great link with info here
http://homepages.vodafone.co.nz/~lakewood/Skyline/Spoiler.htm

They do come up for sale as a unit on the Skyline forums occasionally too. I just want to follow your next thread...... :wink:


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## 1781cc (Jan 25, 2015)

longodds said:


> Thanks fellas- really appreciate everyone's comments . Can't wait to get it fitted and working correctly as I love mods or additions that look good, but also do something- particularly if it's something practical.
> 
> It's got me thinking about an active front foil/splitter- if I can research the dynamics of it. I think that would be easier to do than the boot spoiler because I wouldn't be as constrained (by having to adapt to the dimensions of a standard panel/part).
> 
> Maybe I'll add a pair of wings later


Trawl trough some of the Jap breakers, the Mistu GTO and some Jap Supras had active front aero, switchable from the cockpit, I know the dimensions aren't right, but the mechanism and looms might be spliceable...


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

Thanks FiveDirty and 1781cc, I'll look into that.


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

Finally found time (9 hours) to do a bit more yesterday, even though the day was interrupted by rock stars, princes and princesses. First Dave Hill, of Slade fame, knocked my door to shake hands; then my son spilt hot chocolate on his suit so I needed to get the hairdryer out of the glove box to help him dry it and finally my daughter needed my help. But.....

Various photos of the control system. My soldering skills are as poor as my eyesight, but I'm quite proud of my little PCB.









Today I'll try to code and test it.


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

Well it's now programed.... I think.

Here's a sample of the code



At least it lights up 



Now to hook it up to the boot lid's wiring and bench test it. I'm expecting snags and problems.


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## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

"How does it feel" "do you believe in miracles""
"cum on feel the noize" "get down get with it" "so here it is merry christmas" 8)

^spoiler installation/control progress in sladespeak.


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## jamman (May 6, 2002)

He's the one that always scared me strange looking fella......

Electrics look "different" but who cares if it works will look great, keep going


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

jamman said:


> He's the one that always scared me strange looking fella......
> 
> Electrics look "different" but who cares if it works will look great, keep going


'... who cares if it works will look great.' It don't [smiley=bigcry.gif]. First attempts at testing failed miserably. Nothing, nowt, bloody nada happened . So it's going to be an afternoon of checks, more checks, further checks and more tests [smiley=book2.gif] . I was so, so careful when I assembled the circuitry and triple checked each connection before making it, but I suppose it only takes one mistake. I suspect the problem lies with either my own circuitry design or that which I purchased rather than failing to adhere to the schematics or an error in assembling it.


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## Jaylad (Sep 21, 2013)

Any luck yet ?


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

I take it the sketch was done by your 'outsourced coder'. Did they put any serial debug in so you can at least try to identify where it's falling down? If not, can you get them to do a debug build to use till everything is working properly?


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## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

Spandex said:


> I take it the sketch was done by your 'outsourced coder'. Did they put any serial debug in so you can at least try to identify where it's falling down? If not, can you get them to do a debug build to use till everything is working properly?


as above

Also I dont know what extra functions youre after.
At a guess the stuff you need is
1.closed should be the natural position.
spoiler allways returns to closed when you leave the car..dont want yobos tearing it off.

Could a mk1 window motor/or its controls/sensors/switches be adapted for up down,should be strong enough cos it moves heavy glass
Something like using the door lock micro switch on the mk1 for window up and down (heh yes it fails) but when its working,it closes the window on final door close before you leave the car.

Auto lift at speed or a preset speed.the non cc fitted TT has user setable speed warnings perhaps that speed could be used as a "spolier lift initiator",via a relay or something.
You can set 2 speeds on the non cc equipped dash,, maybe speed one for up and speed 2 for down.

Actually using an aftermarket cruise control stalk.. that energises ... well you see where I'm going.
I was just thinking of trying to utilise the existing circuitry.
Maybe the ecu /uch would accept a "3rd window" for some operations.

A dedicated prog would be nice for readouts?,but a 100% operating thing might be easier to work for now.


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

Spandex said:


> I take it the sketch was done by your 'outsourced coder'. Did they put any serial debug in so you can at least try to identify where it's falling down? If not, can you get them to do a debug build to use till everything is working properly?


Yes, the schematic was provided by my outsourced coder. I can hazard a guess at what a serial debug is, but I have no idea if they put one in.

After the disappointment of the test I checked that I'd followed the wiring diagram precisely and then checked all of my connections- all seemed well. So I looked at the coding I'd been supplied with and found, what i thought was, a discrepancy. According to the schematic two of the pins were assigned to, let's say A and B, whereas in the code those two pins were not used, but two others were. I contacted the coder and he amended the wiring diagram. I've swapped the pins over now, but I've not found time to lay it all out and connect it up to test it. I'm hoping to be able to do that later today.

Fingers crossed as this project is dragging on a bit.


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

3TT3 said:


> Spandex said:
> 
> 
> > I take it the sketch was done by your 'outsourced coder'. Did they put any serial debug in so you can at least try to identify where it's falling down? If not, can you get them to do a debug build to use till everything is working properly?
> ...


The functions I'm trying to include are:
Off (stays down and does nothing- as is the case at the moment  )
Up when the ignition is turned on
Self check- Up when the ignition is turned on, stays there for an adjustable predetermined time, then lowers and lights an LED to confirm all's well.
Up when the car reaches a preset road speed (adjustable)
Down as the car decelerates to a preset road speed (adjustable)
Always down when the ignition is off

I have everything to achieve that- if only it would bloody well work :lol:

I found one problem with the schematic and code I was supplied with so, now that I've rectified that, it might work. I'm trying to find time to test it today and I'll post a comment with the results later.


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## Mondo (Feb 20, 2009)

longodds said:


> ...Off (stays down and does nothing- as is the case at the moment  )...


 :lol:

Good one. A sense of humour when sorting out stuff is vital. Keep at it; gonna be great when done, and you'll be justfiably chuffed with yourself.

(then get a production run going...)


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## Boruki (Mar 2, 2014)

I wish I lived closer as I'd happily give you a hand with it - but it's a nightmare fiddling with that stuff over the net.

Keep going, it's so close and so awesome.


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## triplefan (Sep 3, 2008)

longodds said:


> Up when the ignition is turned on
> 
> Always down when the ignition is off


I don't know about the other functions but if you want these only just connect it to the aerial lead on the radio and jobs a good'un :lol:


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

triplefan said:


> longodds said:
> 
> 
> > Up when the ignition is turned on
> ...


Good point, but.... too easy  . If it's not difficult it's not challenging and if it's not challenging it's probably not worth the effort. Besides, absolutely nothing depends on it and I'm only doing it for a bit of fun and because (maybe) I can. It's cost me about 600 so far so I'm not looking to spend more, but I will have it fitted and I will have it working- speed dependently- by the last day of July at the latest.

I have time to test it right now, but instead, after a really busy day, I'm gonna relax, have a smoke, listen to some music and write another ode to Hoggy :lol:


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## triplefan (Sep 3, 2008)

An admirable outlook, reverse psychology of "if it's not worth doing, it's not worth doing properly"


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

Tested it and it's still kaput. I've now left the electronics in the hands of another, more local, electronics engineer: a consultant this time. I'm hoping to have the project sorted, fitted and finished by the end of the month. It's been a doddle- not


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## Predator (Dec 23, 2008)

very nice job


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## triplefan (Sep 3, 2008)

longodds said:


> Tested it and it's still kaput. I've now left the electronics in the hands of another, more local, electronics engineer: a consultant this time. I'm hoping to have the project sorted, fitted and finished by the end of the month. It's been a doddle- not


Hey Russell, any update on this, we should have had a video of the finished product by now :roll:


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

triplefan said:


> longodds said:
> 
> 
> > Tested it and it's still kaput. I've now left the electronics in the hands of another, more local, electronics engineer: a consultant this time. I'm hoping to have the project sorted, fitted and finished by the end of the month. It's been a doddle- not
> ...


Hi. I know, so much for having it finished by the end of July. My engineer is working on the controls in his spare time so it's in his hands. He's redesigned and is rebuilding the whole thing to my spec, but I'm hoping to have it back soon. As soon as I do I'll fit it, test it and upload pictures and videos. Keep em peeled.


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## VenomUk (Feb 23, 2016)

Isn't there a longitudinal sensor behind the glove box that could be used as a signal


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## Winter20vt (Nov 14, 2015)

Looking forward to seeing this installed, I'm sure it will look amazing! Hats off to you for trying something like this!


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

Thank you Winter20vt. I'm working in Italy at the moment, but the guy building the control promises to have it done by the 26th of this month....we'll see. If he has, I'll fit it all in soon after. Can't wait myself either, the bloody boot lid's been living in my kitchen for ever now. I'll be modifying the front of the car too- just for the hell of it really. Keep em peeled.


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## Mondo (Feb 20, 2009)

Hey, when you're done, maybe look to modify the front end:









It says 'cow catcher' but I'm sure it would catch badgers just as well.  Maybe get it to deploy automatically at +100mph. Or +10; I'm not sure now.

See what I did there? Nice bit of cross-threading. :wink:


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

Mondo said:


> Hey, when you're done, maybe look to modify the front end:
> 
> 
> It says 'cow catcher' but I'm sure it would catch badgers just as well.  Maybe get it to deploy automatically at +100mph. Or +10; I'm not sure now.
> ...


Beautifully put, but do you think I should wrap it in carbon, spray it red or leave it in its naked, unadulterated, glorious OEM style? And, do you think it could take on a tractor at... oh, fcuk me...they only do 15 MPH don't they! (I'm only being specific for serious folk). I'm quite nice really and love you all


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

Collect my spoiler control this Sunday  Back in the UK after working in northern Italy for five weeks  Reconnected my battery and went for a drive  Missing my Italian and Latvian friends- so feeling sad  Made the decision to relocate to Rome  It will probably take two years  Planning on fitting my spoiler next week


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

Finally got my spoiler controller. Now I need to find time to fit it.


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

Does anyone know where I can get a Hi and Lo Can signal from and what I should be looking for ie wire colours?

Thanks


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## nicolaitornhoj (Aug 19, 2015)

Cool project.
You could implement a GPS in your Arduino to raise and lower it depending on speed.
Don't think the MK1 has that signal.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Boruki (Mar 2, 2014)

longodds said:


> Does anyone know where I can get a Hi and Lo Can signal from and what I should be looking for ie wire colours?
> 
> Thanks


This would be via the obd connection under the driver side dash, if you look up the obd standards it says which are which.


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

Quick little update. I've fitted the boot and installed most of the wiring. The leads from the boot area to the dash were a bit of a pita to fit, but they're done now. There's a few things to sort out with the control box, which my man says he'll do next Sunday, so- hopefully- the project will soon be finished and I can add videos of it in operation then call it a day. I've been working on this, on and off, for just over a year, but although progress has been slow recently I'm very pleased with how it looks and I'm confident I'll be equally happy with the way it performs when I'm finished.


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## Metrics (Feb 13, 2016)

How neat is that? Top work fella!


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## Mondo (Feb 20, 2009)

A: very.

Well done that man. Top banana.

Now to roll out the production line... :wink:


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## s_robinson91 (Jun 9, 2012)

That looks friggin awesome! Top work!


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

Found a direct road speed signal with your guy's help and left the controller with my electronics guy to amend the circuitry then reprogram and calibrate it. I'm hoping it will work this time, even if it needs a bit of 'adjusting' and I'm considering renaming myself Job.


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

Or... before anyone says it- Oddjob


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

Spent three hours with my tech guy today sorting out numerous teething problems and making final adjustments to the spoiler controller and I'm please to report that perseverance and expertise won the day. I need to tidy the wiring and mount the control box, but it and the spoiler are now working perfectly.

One control allows me to keep the spoiler raised. Another keeps it lowered and a third (which has been the most trouble) raises and lowers it at (variable) preset road speeds. It even goes through a self-check sequence on the later setting and indicates with a LED if all is well.

I've taken a few shots of what it looks like raised and I'll be posting a video of it working automatically when I get the chance to make it.







I'm really pleased with my new TTToy


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## Harry ScroTTer (May 16, 2016)

So pleased for you and all your hard work been following your posts throughout with pure envy at your dedication and vision. Can't wait to see the video


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## phoze (Mar 31, 2016)

Brilliant work - so great that you had the vision and carried it through to completion.

Really professional finish there, I bet you're well chuffed! That's a real proper mod, chopping bits up!


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## Mike_R (Jun 7, 2016)

Top job looks like a factory option!


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## Winter20vt (Nov 14, 2015)

Fantastic mate!


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## BadNun (Mar 11, 2016)

That is just so good, you must be chuffed to bits.

I am showing this my mechanic friend and bribing him with money and cakes.


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

Thank you all so much for your positive comments- they're very much appreciated. Yes, I am pleased with the end result. It took some effort and has been frustrating as times, but it's been well worth it.

Here's a couple of shots of the control box:

Internals.



Mounted (set to raise automatically at 35mph and lower as 20).



Now I need to get out of my new bad habit of looking in the rear view mirror to check if the spoiler has automatically raised and lowered at the correct speeds as intended


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

BadNun said:


> That is just so good, you must be chuffed to bits.
> 
> I am showing this my mechanic friend and bribing him with money and cakes.


'and bribing him with money and cakes.' Absolutely love that line


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## kclee1st (Nov 9, 2015)

Nice work there. But what do those symbols mean on the bumper? Are they Japanese :wink: ?


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

kclee1st said:


> Nice work there. But what do those symbols mean on the bumper? Are they Japanese :wink: ?


Yes, they're Japanese


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## Mondo (Feb 20, 2009)

Iconic instructions on how to form a scrum correctly:


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