# -40 lowering springs for £60



## straut (Aug 31, 2011)

Hi Guys, ok i was just looking on ecp for the price of some apex -40 springs and i saw these there
http://www.eurocarparts.com/ecp/c/Audi_ ... ddb&000559

which with our discount works out at £60 with free post  
question is surely they cant be too good for that money but has anyone used them,heard of them,???

Steve


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## kazinak (Mar 23, 2010)

They are apex springs and they are good enaugh for tt ,

Sent from my LT18i using Tapatalk 2


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## Borisp (Dec 28, 2011)

I'm sure they will not give discount on performance parts/upgrades.

I had an issue when buying my springs. No harm in trying tho.


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## straut (Aug 31, 2011)

Yep discount is good they start off at £80
ttfuk25 in the box and down to £60 just ordered mine

Steve


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## Chris_TT (Apr 4, 2012)

Brand: A-Max....hmm.


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## mullum (Sep 16, 2011)

Please let us know what colour they are once they arrive ..


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## straut (Aug 31, 2011)

Well just a little update to this if you use the code service30 you get them for £56.69 delivered 
(yes the code works I've used it) will update again when I get them

Steve


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## mullum (Sep 16, 2011)

can these be used with a prefacelift 225 quattro ? the link is "for" a 2002 roadster ..


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## gogs (Dec 22, 2010)

I ordered a set if eibach springs a few months back from Euro car parts and ended up cancelling as I waited for almost 8 weeks, kept being told they wee on there way! Not sure if it was due to the discount!


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## straut (Aug 31, 2011)

Link was for my Quattro roadster 2002 so pre facelift
Just put in your car details or reg no,when all the parts
Come up click suspension ( not sub catagrories under suspension) 
New menu will open and show lowering springs.

These springs are also showing as in stock


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## mullum (Sep 16, 2011)

yes thanks for that - I did that and found them in the end. 
Decided to take a punt - grabbed a coolant bottle (listed as an expansion tank) at the same time.

Now I have 3 sets of springs !


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## tommycupra (Jul 17, 2012)

dammit just paid 95 for these


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## joecook30 (Jul 12, 2012)

I just paid £85 with free delivery from awesome gti,cheapest on eBay was £105 so still happy!!
Just looked on eurocarparts and you've ordered a-max not apex springs.


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## straut (Aug 31, 2011)

as Kazinak says they are apex springs,look at the apex springs on ecp and look at brand in product details........a-max
they work out at £85 free p+p with ttfuk discount (which i put in and it works)

http://www.eurocarparts.com/ecp/c/Audi_ ... addb&00055

these have got to be worth a go at £56 but only till sunday

oh and i found out they are yellow same as apex

steve


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## kazinak (Mar 23, 2010)

or if you use 30% they on only £79


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## mullum (Sep 16, 2011)

Mine arrived at some point in the last few days (Yodel, the delivery co. - saw fit to leave them around the front of my house without leaving a note. So there they sat, in the rain and in full view of anyone passing by - for a day or two).
The box says A-Max and theyre yellow, I actually have some Apex too but haven't opened the outer delivery box to see how the packaging compares.


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## straut (Aug 31, 2011)

OK mine have now come and they look great,eurocarparts have now changed the brand to a-max/apex because they are actually the same and they confirmed this by e-mail to me 
you can still get these for £60 posted with our discount BARGAIN

Steve


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## Hjtt (Oct 19, 2012)

£60 bargain me thinks at that , would u need to do any other mods when u fit these like roll the arches or anything ?


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## straut (Aug 31, 2011)

Nope -40 straight on some might need rear camber adjustment and 4 wheel alignment but most people who lower are running apex -40 with no other mods ...suck it and see

UPDATE AS OF MONDAY 11.45PM service30 promo code is still working so £56.69 DELIVERED
GET THEM ORDERED

steve


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## Trouble4 (Oct 4, 2012)

see if any numbers or letters on the springs itself wil be interesting....


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## aaron_tt (Sep 18, 2012)

Do these springs actually say APEX on them then?


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## Jay-tt225 (Oct 12, 2012)

Might get some of these, what will they be like on 17" wheels?
Has anyone fitted these yet, is the right crashy? Will my wheels hit the arches over bumps if i fit these?


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## M18NTT (Dec 30, 2011)

Jay-tt225 said:


> Might get some of these, what will they be like on 17" wheels?


I took a punt and ordered these this afternoon. Can't go far wrong for just over £56 delivered. 4 wheel re-alignment is obviously an extra cost (as with any suspension mods). Also, it's a bit of a lottery whether you will need adjustable tie bars but hey-ho in for a penny.

As someone else has posted Eurocarparts are now listing these as A-max / Apex springs. I hope they'll be OK on 17" wheels as I have standard 6 spokes on mine.


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## aaron_tt (Sep 18, 2012)

I dont get how A-Maxx and APEX are the same, surely different companies and different springs altogether? :?


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## kazinak (Mar 23, 2010)

aaron_tt said:


> I dont get how A-Maxx and APEX are the same, surely different companies and different springs altogether? :?


don't really mater because they are only springs .


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## Hjtt (Oct 19, 2012)

as soon as anyone gets these fitted please let us know what there like and any pics if poss with them fitted


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## Jay-tt225 (Oct 12, 2012)

Readerj have you got the link to tge ones you got?
I cant find them on the site for 2000 reg coupe


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## Hjtt (Oct 19, 2012)

here is the link m8 for the coupe

http://www.eurocarparts.com/ecp/c/Audi_ ... d6b&000559


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## Jay-tt225 (Oct 12, 2012)

Scratch that i found them


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## straut (Aug 31, 2011)

Ha Ha seems i started something here, well it will be a bit of time before i put mine on as i have wheel refurb to do then some spacers 20mm and 25mm (anybody have any)on standard 3.2 alloys and the wives 206 which is really pissing me off now has died again so in the process of getting her a corsa sxi, so yes im sure these are spot on but anyone thats put them on let us know what they are like

steve


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## Funky (Nov 30, 2004)

Just used service30 and ordered them for £56.69. Cant go wrong really as long they turn up! lol Brilliant thread thank you for starting it an populating it.


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## M18NTT (Dec 30, 2011)

Jay-tt225 said:


> Readerj have you got the link to tge ones you got?
> I cant find them on the site for 2000 reg coupe


Sorry Jay-tt225 I've only just logged back on and didn't see your post yesterday. Glad to see someone else posted the link though it should cover your model. I just typed in my registration and the correct model came up (for me a 2001 225 Quattro). I ordered mine using the service30 code (instead of the TTFUK25 code) and got them for £56.69 like a few others. They should arrive tomorrow then I just need to get them fitted.


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## aaron_tt (Sep 18, 2012)

Well stuff it I took the plunge and bought me some of these, for the price they are they were too good to resist and theyll tide me over till I can afford the real deal and buy some coilovers  Hopefully they come on time with no issues in time for next weekend as ill get em fitted at work next weekend 8)


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## mullum (Sep 16, 2011)

What are people paying a garage to get them fitted ? And how much for alignment ?


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## joecook30 (Jul 12, 2012)

Had my Apex springs (not a-max) fitted yesterday at RGS Motorsport in Wellingborough for £150 +£25 to adjust the alignment.
The car looks much better now,will post some before and after pics at the weekend.


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## Kalpz (Jul 18, 2006)

Hi

Has anyone got these for the 3.2 v6?

I've got a set ready for collection at my nearest depo but I am worried that due to the weight of the V6 lump these may not be suitable... the part numbers are the same for the 3.2 and 1.8, surely the springs cant be the same??

So do I pick these up??? Help!


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## Kalpz (Jul 18, 2006)

Ok I've collected them! At £56 it was worth a punt.

Now can any recommend a place near north west london to get these fitted??

I've been quoted £130.00 by my local garage. Is this a good price?


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## M18NTT (Dec 30, 2011)

Kalpz said:


> Ok I've collected them! At £56 it was worth a punt.
> 
> Now can any recommend a place near north west london to get these fitted??
> 
> I've been quoted £130.00 by my local garage. Is this a good price?


I'm reckoning on a similar price to fit mine which were delivered today. It must be a good couple hours of spanner work at least so an independent is going to be in the region of £100 to 150 labour I suppose.


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## Kalpz (Jul 18, 2006)

Got a new quote after a little help from a forum member for £90.00 and £45 for lazer allingnement if needed.

Booked in for tuesday morning!


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## M18NTT (Dec 30, 2011)

Kalpz said:


> Got a new quote after a little help from a forum member for £90.00 and £45 for lazer allingnement if needed.
> 
> Booked in for tuesday morning!


£90 is not bad at all. I haven't found anyone local to me yet (Herts/Essex border) but I'm still looking. I spoke to my local independent and he seemed less than enthusiastic, mainly because he is so busy.


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## Hjtt (Oct 19, 2012)

well ive just ordered a set i thought why not take the plunge , cant wait to get these and get them fitted !!


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## aaron_tt (Sep 18, 2012)

Very happy, super fast delivery and only paid for the standard delivery option. Ordered them thursday night and they've came today  Look all nice and yellow sitting in the box, now to fit them next weekend along with a couple of my other goodies i've got waiting to go on, gona be good 8)


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## kazinak (Mar 23, 2010)

readerj001 said:


> Kalpz said:
> 
> 
> > Got a new quote after a little help from a forum member for £90.00 and £45 for lazer allingnement if needed.
> ...


it's very simple job to replace them, rears can be done in 10-15min ,all you need is to remove one bolt on each side, front can take about an hour , however in the garage whit the right tools all job can be done in less than a hour


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## Hjtt (Oct 19, 2012)

any 1 got pics of these fitted yet ??


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## aaron_tt (Sep 18, 2012)

Hjtt said:


> any 1 got pics of these fitted yet ??


If no one does it before, ill update this thread with mine fitted next weekend for ya


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## Hjtt (Oct 19, 2012)

nice 1 thanks , ive ordered mine anyway but would of been nice to of seen these fitted , im hopeing to fit mine nexyt weekend if i get time !


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## Lowfoon (Sep 30, 2012)

Interested to see these fitted!


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## apj (May 31, 2012)

Yes bargain at £56. I replaced my top mounts in about 1-2 hours and not knowing what i was doing with spring compressors and elbow grease so relatively easy job to change shortened springs me thinks.


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## Kalpz (Jul 18, 2006)

Lowfoon said:


> Interested to see these fitted!


Having mine fitted tomorrow morning so I will have pictures uploaded by the afternoon


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## apj (May 31, 2012)

Just ordered mine £56 free delivery onThursday


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## Hjtt (Oct 19, 2012)

i guess ill be the first ........... GUESS WHAT CAME TODAY !!!!!


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## aaron_tt (Sep 18, 2012)

Kalpz said:


> Lowfoon said:
> 
> 
> > Interested to see these fitted!
> ...


Cool make sure you get some same angle shots of before and after  Will be interested to see what the ride like is also.


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## Hjtt (Oct 19, 2012)

aaron_tt said:


> Kalpz said:
> 
> 
> > Lowfoon said:
> ...


+1 defo would like to see the diffrence


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## Hjtt (Oct 19, 2012)

just to let you know has anyone checked the side of the box mine says 30mm ???


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## Kalpz (Jul 18, 2006)

Hjtt said:


> just to let you know has anyone checked the side of the box mine says 30mm ???


That's correct mine says 30mm and under the Amax sticker it also has the generic factory sticker which says APEX!!


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## M18NTT (Dec 30, 2011)

Hjtt said:


> just to let you know has anyone checked the side of the box mine says 30mm ???


Yep mine says 30mm as well. I think the drop depends upon whether you have a pre or post facelift TT. The springs supplied on the later models were lower so the difference is less. If you have a pre facelift model the drop will presumably be 40mm or thereabouts. I seem to recall similar comments posted on threads about APEX springs.


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## Jay-tt225 (Oct 12, 2012)

Had mine over a week now just no time to fit them!
Cant wait to see some pictures


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## straut (Aug 31, 2011)

Well at least now we know 100% they are made by APEX and i agree i think the amount of drop stated is for facelift cars


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## Kalpz (Jul 18, 2006)

These are NOT for the V6 as it cost me £40 to find out today.

As many of you know I was having mine fitted today but when they stripped the suspension down they are a different part to the V6 Springs!!!! Arrrggg [smiley=bomb.gif] 

It the car in fairness was up for 2 hours stripping and the garage charged me £40 to put it back together so I can go and get some different springs which are made for the V6.

As the suspension was already tampered with I knew I would have to do the allingment so I decided to buy some H&R springs from europarts using the servicd30 code which worked out at £142.00.

So annoying that euro parts would sell a part which is not made for that car!

So if you have brought any for a V6 go and return them! Then have a look at my H&R Thread to see the before and after pictures of the H&R Springs here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=305297


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## M18NTT (Dec 30, 2011)

Kalpz said:


> These are NOT for the V6 as it cost me £40 to find out today.


That's a real bugger. Looking at other sites that sell A-Max the Ads simply state that they are suitable for the 8N chassis so it was reasonable to assume that they would fit yours even though the 3.2 is a bigger (heavier) lump at the front. I've also looked at the sites selling Apex springs and these also don't seem to differentiate between the 225/180 and the 3.2 (just whether it's 4 or 2WD). I'm getting my ones fitted tomorrow, I hope they are ok for the 225 otherwise they will also be going back.


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## Kalpz (Jul 18, 2006)

readerj001 said:


> Kalpz said:
> 
> 
> > These are NOT for the V6 as it cost me £40 to find out today.
> ...


Just have them check before they start stripping the beast! Otherwise you'll also have a bill to pay.


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## straut (Aug 31, 2011)

Kaplz I don't know what springs you have there but I certainly don't think they are for a mk1 TT
They should look like this










Which I think you will see is the same as your original spring.........how strange

Steve


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## cooksTTer (Nov 5, 2012)

I fitted the A-Max springs on Saturday and they look like the one you took off your V6 Kalpz.The A-max ones you have in the picture are different from the ones I recieved.I fitted them to a 225.They tappered at the top for the front and are tappered top and bottom on the rear.


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## cooksTTer (Nov 5, 2012)

Like the ones in strauts pics.


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## Kalpz (Jul 18, 2006)

straut said:


> Kaplz I don't know what springs you have there but I certainly don't think they are for a mk1 TT
> They should look like this
> 
> 
> ...


This is really strange! These look like the H&R springs which I've now put on.

The only explaination can be that the wrong springs were in the box supplied!

Arrrgghh  Now this has cost me £120 extra for someone stupid mistake!


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## M18NTT (Dec 30, 2011)

cooksTTer said:


> Like the ones in strauts pics.


Yep, these are mine. They look like strauts.










That really is a pain in the arse. Someone else has incorrectly packed the box and you've paid the price.


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## Kalpz (Jul 18, 2006)

readerj001 said:


> cooksTTer said:
> 
> 
> > Like the ones in strauts pics.
> ...


Yeah... i guess that just how the cookie crumbles sometimes... on the flip side i'm very impressed with the H&R the ride comfort has not seemed to be effected at all, plus a peace of mind to know these were actually made for the V6 as they have a different part number to the 225/180


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## M18NTT (Dec 30, 2011)

Kalpz said:


> Yeah... i guess that just how the cookie crumbles sometimes... on the flip side i'm very impressed with the H&R the ride comfort has not seemed to be effected at all, plus a peace of mind to know these were actually made for the V6 as they have a different part number to the 225/180


Glad you're pleased with them and it worked out ok (ish) in the end. The pics on your other post certainly show the whole stance of the car is much improved. Now just the spacers to finish it off. I can't believe how high the stock suspension is on pre facelift TT's.


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## Jay-225 (Mar 7, 2012)

Kalpz said:


> These are NOT for the V6 as it cost me £40 to find out today.
> 
> As many of you know I was having mine fitted today but when they stripped the suspension down they are a different part to the V6 Springs!!!! Arrrggg [smiley=bomb.gif]
> 
> ...


As has been said you were supplied the wrong springs for the car, rear spring looks like its from a coilover :?

but as the saying goes every cloud has a silver lining... You would of probably hated the 40mm drop with the V6, another member with a V6 fitted the Apex springs recently and was not impressed with the ride at all, too much banging and knocking going on due to heavy engine and weak springs..viewtopic.php?f=2&t=302841&p=2426810#p2426810 the H&R springs you have now should serve you well


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## Kalpz (Jul 18, 2006)

Jay-225 said:


> Kalpz said:
> 
> 
> > These are NOT for the V6 as it cost me £40 to find out today.
> ...


Hi Jay,

I saw that thread and still decided to take a punt at that price... one thing for sure is the H&R is awesome! The ride quality and i've put if through some pot holes and driven over drains basically any bumps i can find and not one clunk or any sound of knocking. The ride doesnt feel hard at all and roll on cornering has improved alot.

Overall I think it's one of those things which turned out better in the end!


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## ades tt 180 (Jun 19, 2011)

who's gonna put pics of their car up first?


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## M18NTT (Dec 30, 2011)

ades tt 180 said:


> who's gonna put pics of their car up first?[/quote
> 
> I'm getting mine fitted tomorrow but it'll be dark before I get back from work so pics not likely from me until the weekend.


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## Hjtt (Oct 19, 2012)

im thinking of fitting my own tomoz i know the rears will take me about 20 mins its just the fronts that are bothering me alittle !


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## Hjtt (Oct 19, 2012)

well i thought i would have a go today at doing our springs and the nuts would not shift for love for money so ill be sending it to the garage to sort out !! :-(


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## warrenstuart (Mar 3, 2010)

Thinking of getting a set of these too before someone realises and the price goes up and/or the stock runs out.
Anybody had any issues with them knocking etc?

Warren.


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## M18NTT (Dec 30, 2011)

A couple of pics after picking her up this afternoon before having to dash out again. I didn't have the time to take her for a run so have no idea what she feels like. The drop is not as much as I had expected although I'm sure it will go lower once it's had time to settle. I measured the gap last night between tyre and wheel arch and is was 65mm. Today it's 35mm.

Before









And Today









Still imo it makes her look a bit more planted and well worth £56. I'll get some better pics at the weekend


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## straut (Aug 31, 2011)

Agree looks miles better and all for the sum of £56 inc p+p errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr bargain i think   
and im sure with time they will settle down to -40 but hey if they dont look at it like this we probably wont need adjustable arms


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## aaron_tt (Sep 18, 2012)

Ace looks like these will be ideal once fitted then just what i wanted. Cant wait to get mine on now will update on weekend


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## richyboy (Jul 27, 2009)

Looking good in the pics I've just ordered some too great bargain!


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## Hjtt (Oct 19, 2012)

aaron_tt said:


> Ace looks like these will be ideal once fitted then just what i wanted. Cant wait to get mine on now will update on weekend


who's doing yours aaron ?


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## Hjtt (Oct 19, 2012)

readerj001 said:


> A couple of pics after picking her up this afternoon before having to dash out again. I didn't have the time to take her for a run so have no idea what she feels like. The drop is not as much as I had expected although I'm sure it will go lower once it's had time to settle. I measured the gap last night between tyre and wheel arch and is was 65mm. Today it's 35mm.
> 
> Before
> 
> ...


have to admit i quite like the drop m8


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## M18NTT (Dec 30, 2011)

straut said:


> Agree looks miles better ..... im sure with time they will settle down to -40 but hey if they dont look at it like this we probably wont need adjustable arms


Jury's out on tie bar's. I've noticed there is a bit of camber on the rear so I'm not out of the woods yet. I'll get it checked out and see how far out they are. I have an old set of tyres on at present so not too bothered if they wear unevenly but I'll definitely get it sorted before new boots are fitted. I only do 2-3000 miles a year so no rush.


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## Jay-tt225 (Oct 12, 2012)

Whats the ride like any rubbing?


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## TT Boycie (Sep 27, 2009)

readerj001 said:


> A couple of pics after picking her up this afternoon before having to dash out again. I didn't have the time to take her for a run so have no idea what she feels like. The drop is not as much as I had expected although I'm sure it will go lower once it's had time to settle. I measured the gap last night between tyre and wheel arch and is was 65mm. Today it's 35mm.
> 
> Before
> 
> ...


Looks good mate. I'm pretty sure that's as low as it will look on the 17" alloys.


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## Jay-225 (Mar 7, 2012)

readerj001 said:


> straut said:
> 
> 
> > Agree looks miles better ..... im sure with time they will settle down to -40 but hey if they dont look at it like this we probably wont need adjustable arms
> ...


Your cars looks really nice, stunning paint work 

As for the tie bars i think everybody who has got these springs will need them as dropping the car 40mm ( once it settles in a few weeks ) will put the camber to around -2 1/2 deg which is far far too much especially for the rear on a road car!
Get a set of bars and sort the rear camber and the car will feel miles better...
You can get a set of Forge bars from Awesome gti ( speak with John ) for a very very good price of £260 delivered with TTOC discount. much better than replacing rear tyres every few thousand miles [smiley=bigcry.gif]


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## ades tt 180 (Jun 19, 2011)

Looks much better now...was looking like a 4x4 with the old springs....should drop a little more with some miles on them, try a bit of hard cornering!...looks nice and shiney too!


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## aaron_tt (Sep 18, 2012)

Hjtt said:


> aaron_tt said:
> 
> 
> > Ace looks like these will be ideal once fitted then just what i wanted. Cant wait to get mine on now will update on weekend
> ...


Myself am a mechanic


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## t'mill (Jul 31, 2012)

So has everybody who has these springs going to (or have) fit adjustable tie bars? Up until reading that tie bars are going to be definitely needed, I was going to purchase a set. But can't justify spending a further £260 on bars plus the fitting


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## Jay-225 (Mar 7, 2012)

Well its up to you weather you want to run with excess camber but even when in spec if dropped a true 40mm will be over -2 deg which as no good imo so tie bars or some way of sorting camber is a must...

audi specs for rear camber ....


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## mullum (Sep 16, 2011)

What other ways are there of adjusting camber ?


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## Hjtt (Oct 19, 2012)

aaron_tt said:


> Hjtt said:
> 
> 
> > aaron_tt said:
> ...


i see what he charge you m8 ?


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## Jay-225 (Mar 7, 2012)

mullum said:


> What other ways are there of adjusting camber ?


As standard the car has a very small amount of adjustment available, another option is to fit a bush kit to the arms that allow you to adjust camber to an extent and for the best adjustability you need tie bars from Forge ( others are available but forge considered the best by many)


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## t'mill (Jul 31, 2012)

Thanks for the info Jay, very informative. Would the bush kit on the bars be sufficient enough to compensate for camber after fitting these springs?


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## mullum (Sep 16, 2011)

And if so, what would one search for when looking for one of these bush kits ?


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## Jay-225 (Mar 7, 2012)

Here are 2 of the bush kits available, you buy them depending on how low the car is...

1st kit is upto 1 1/2" 38mm or 40mm in this case :lol: 
http://www.thettshop.com/performance.as ... uct=901178
cost £150
2nd kit is more bushes upto 2" 51mm drop
http://www.thettshop.com/performance.as ... uct=901179
cost £280

you may be able to get them cheaper if you shop around..

Looks like some sort of eccentric bolt that as turned will pull the arm in and out to adjust camber, should work well as i had to do a similar thing on my old car and had no problems until i needed to undo the shock :roll: :lol:

as for adjustment, at a guess i would say each set of bushes knocks off a degree maybe a little more so may not be perfect but will be a lot better than without


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## aaron_tt (Sep 18, 2012)

Hjtt said:


> aaron_tt said:
> 
> 
> > Myself am a mechanic
> ...


I'm not being charged mate I'm going into work on my own Sunday morning and working on my car


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## Hjtt (Oct 19, 2012)

aaron_tt said:


> Hjtt said:
> 
> 
> > aaron_tt said:
> ...


Oh I see so u dnt fancy another pair of hands and another tt ?? He he he


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## mullum (Sep 16, 2011)

Thanks very much jay-225  much appreciated.


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## aaron_tt (Sep 18, 2012)

Kalpz said:


> Hjtt said:
> 
> 
> > just to let you know has anyone checked the side of the box mine says 30mm ???
> ...


Was interested by this so decided to have a look myself and indeed under the eurocarparts it says APEX on the original. Here's a pic to show you what I mean, have put the euro sticker back on the box underneath the original:


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## aaron_tt (Sep 18, 2012)

Hjtt said:


> aaron_tt said:
> 
> 
> > Hjtt said:
> ...


haha wouldn't be able to mate because my boss is likely to be popping by with a project of his


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## apj (May 31, 2012)

Just a note on the camber issue when I raised it last month AwesomeJohn suggested adjustable bars weren't needed as long as you can live with increased tyre wear. If the bars were the same price as the springs then i would fit them tomorrow but £200 plus ?

The other thing is if these new springs are 30mm drops as the box states and you are fitting them to a pre facelift Mk1 isn't that pretty much the drop Audi brought in when they dropped the post facelift Mk1s (by 25mm) ? Did they have camber changes too ?

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=299723

I ordered my springs Monday night and they were delivered on Wednesday morning, very well packaged, so no complaints, hoping for a dry weekend to kit them.


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## richyboy (Jul 27, 2009)

Evening all I just received my springs which I've ordered how come they say 40mm on website but 30mm on box? Reason I'm asking as a few months ago I had a set of spax shocks and springs apparently the spax are 30mm lowering? As my TT is a 2001 it's pre facelift so sits high just wondered if they are actually lower that what I have? I also ordered poly tops for front as front sits slightly higher . Measured from top of rim to wheel arch front is 11cm back is 9cm???????


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## ryanmtt (Sep 13, 2010)

richyboy said:


> Evening all I just received my springs which I've ordered how come they say 40mm on website but 30mm on box? Reason I'm asking as a few months ago I had a set of spax shocks and springs apparently the spax are 30mm lowering? As my TT is a 2001 it's pre facelift so sits high just wondered if they are actually lower that what I have? I also ordered poly tops for front as front sits slightly higher . Measured from top of rim to wheel arch front is 11cm back is 9cm???????


I may be wrong but pre face lift 40 drop face lift 20 drop for some reason they all say 30 drop on all lowering springs :/


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## M18NTT (Dec 30, 2011)

Jay-225 said:


> As for the tie bars i think everybody who has got these springs will need them as dropping the car 40mm ( once it settles in a few weeks ) will put the camber to around -2 1/2 deg which is far far too much especially for the rear on a road car!
> Get a set of bars and sort the rear camber and the car will feel miles better...
> You can get a set of Forge bars from Awesome gti ( speak with John ) for a very very good price of £260 delivered with TTOC discount. much better than replacing rear tyres every few thousand miles [smiley=bigcry.gif]


I agree, I'll let it settle for a couple of weeks then make my mind up. Thanks for the tip about discounted Forge tie bars. I'd definitely go for these if I have to get some as I've read of breakages on some others. The best price I've seen trawling the web for Forge is £297, most sites they're £330+.


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## richyboy (Jul 27, 2009)

Yeh I know what you saying but I've changed my shocks so is it the same?


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## ryanmtt (Sep 13, 2010)

richyboy said:


> Yeh I know what you saying but I've changed my shocks so is it the same?


Oh right sorry mis read not sure on that one, ask Paul I asked him a lot of questions when I was thinking about lowering springs. !


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## Jay-225 (Mar 7, 2012)

apj said:


> Just a note on the camber issue when I raised it last month AwesomeJohn suggested adjustable bars weren't needed as long as you can live with increased tyre wear. If the bars were the same price as the springs then i would fit them tomorrow but £200 plus ?
> 
> The other thing is if these new springs are 30mm drops as the box states and you are fitting them to a pre facelift Mk1 isn't that pretty much the drop Audi brought in when they dropped the post facelift Mk1s (by 25mm) ? Did they have camber changes too ?
> 
> ...


The facelift cars were lowered 20mm, as standard they run camber about -1 1/2 deg... if the new springs take it down 10mm then you will be running about -2.1 deg, 20mm will be about -2.4 deg ...
Prefacelift will be running a little more than the above figures

Its not just the camber that goes out the wheels start to toe in quite a bit as they are linked. 
Although the bars are bloody expensive at £260 they are a necessary evil if lowering a car plus i would rather spend out on a set of bars than 4 lots of rear tyres in a year...
Fitting the bars and setting the camber to about -1 deg will make the car feel so much more planted and will drive a lot better than without.. even the cars lowered 25mm will feel the benefits of the bars and reseting camber back to a sensible level....


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## mullum (Sep 16, 2011)

It's a shame eurocarparts don't do any tie bars (with 30% discount). They'd sell a few, judging by this thread.


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## Jay-225 (Mar 7, 2012)

They do , they sell both forge and standard 

You have to ring up for the Forge and get them on special delivery but can still use discount... thing is i doubt they will be cheaper than Awesome @ £260 ( £70 off from £330 ) , i was going to chase up ecp for the bars but as i needed them now and got told about the price at awesome just went with them


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## warrenstuart (Mar 3, 2010)

£175 adjustable tie bars
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261122796485? ... _248wt_932
Maybe of use to someone :?


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## mullum (Sep 16, 2011)

Are tie bars only required for the rears ? What is required to adjust the front camber ? (The auction is for rear bars)


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## mullum (Sep 16, 2011)

Jay-225 - are the Forge bars £330 from ECP ? If so 30% is £99 off ..


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## aaron_tt (Sep 18, 2012)

warrenstuart said:


> £175 adjustable tie bars
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261122796485? ... _248wt_932
> Maybe of use to someone :?


saw this myself but not sure if id have enough faith to use them with them being a no make tie bar someones selling and unknown quality :?


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## warrenstuart (Mar 3, 2010)

mullum said:


> Are tie bars only required for the rears ? What is required to adjust the front camber ? (The auction is for rear bars)


Tie bars are only required for rear, front is adjustable.


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## mullum (Sep 16, 2011)

Thanks warrenstuart. So those bars must be some generic brand ? And the auction mentions bushes ? Is that something which is worth doing at the same time ?


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## Jay-225 (Mar 7, 2012)

mullum said:


> Are tie bars only required for the rears ? What is required to adjust the front camber ? (The auction is for rear bars)


as said rears only, the front is adjustable via the balljoint as the holes in the wishbone are elongated 



mullum said:


> Jay-225 - are the Forge bars £330 from ECP ? If so 30% is £99 off ..


Well i didn't bother chasing up the ecp order but i still don't think they will allow 30% off as its a special order item, maybe 25% or lower but by all means give them a call and find out and let us know after 



mullum said:


> Thanks warrenstuart. So those bars must be some generic brand ? And the auction mentions bushes ? Is that something which is worth doing at the same time ?


as the bars in the link come without any bushes fitted it would be a pretty good idea to fit a set :wink: :lol:

Another thing is the Forge come with lifetime warrenty and any problems will be sorted very very quickly..


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## mullum (Sep 16, 2011)

Cheers

Re : bushes - the only bushes I know about are .. yes, those bushes, preferably trimmed ones ..


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## Jay-225 (Mar 7, 2012)

i enjoy drilling out a bush :lol:


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## Devil (Mar 12, 2010)

They sound ok. but out of all the people buying them and fitting them and 6 pages of posts only 1 person has put a pic up of their car. any more pics anyone ?


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## mullum (Sep 16, 2011)

Perhaps ECP could do us a group buy ?
Must be at least 10 of us if the price is right ...


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## apj (May 31, 2012)

Thanks Jay for answering my question.

I am begining to wonder whether I should wait until I have the cash to buy the adjustable bars as if i fit the springs this weekend and notch up 2-3K miles over winter I might wear out a set of rear tyres ?

I still have a set of cheap springs though for next year.


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## warrenstuart (Mar 3, 2010)

apj said:


> I am begining to wonder whether I should wait until I have the cash to buy the adjustable bars as if i fit the springs this weekend and notch up 2-3K miles over winter I might wear out a set of rear tyres ?


I think waiting until you can afford adjustable tie bars too is a very sensible way to go.
I won't fit any until i can afford bars too as already running over -2deg of camber on the n/s with standard facelift springs :x


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## M18NTT (Dec 30, 2011)

Devil said:


> They sound ok. but out of all the people buying them and fitting them and 6 pages of posts only 1 person has put a pic up of their car. any more pics anyone ?


I have a couple more pics of before and after wheel arches
Before















After


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## Hjtt (Oct 19, 2012)

readerj001 said:


> Devil said:
> 
> 
> > They sound ok. but out of all the people buying them and fitting them and 6 pages of posts only 1 person has put a pic up of their car. any more pics anyone ?
> ...


look well smart m8 cant wait to get mine fitted !!


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## apj (May 31, 2012)

Has anyone thought of these to solve the problem ebay item 330821611665


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## Jay-225 (Mar 7, 2012)

I posted a link few pages back with a similar kit although the one you posted doesn't seem to come with eccentric bolts so will have to use standard bolts and force the sleeve around inside the bush to adjust the camber... says they knock off a degree per set of arms so to get them perfect would really need top and bottom arms doing but for £150 is a good option!!!


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## Torque (May 7, 2012)

Read this thread with interest as I have a pre-facelift 225 that I'd like to lower slightly and a full set of springs for under £60 is a bargain but couldn't possibly get away paying £200+ for rear bars. The missus would string up my gonads [smiley=bigcry.gif]

I rang ECP recently for a price on front drop links and I was asked if I'd had any other prices. I mentioned GSF had them for £19.80 the pair and the lad asked me to wait a moment. When he came back on, he said "£18 the pair inc vat ok for you then?". Obviously this isn't relevant here but it does seem they'll price match if you show the same product is available elsewhere cheaper. Worth a try maybe, even see if one branch will do a bulk discount and someone arrange a group buy. Strength in numbers and all that.


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## apj (May 31, 2012)

I agree Torque.

Jay looking at TTshops kit at 176 inc vat plus postage it seems the ebay kit even though it doesn't include the bolts is less than half the price giving you a 1 degree change for less than 80 quid posted do you agree ?


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## aaron_tt (Sep 18, 2012)

As promised some pictures of them fitted to my car for you lot 

Literally just got back drove straight home so springs still settling abit and haven't got any of the whole car yet as still needs a clean!:

Before:



















After:





































Am very impressed with them so far though, drive really nice, not much different feel from normal springs just obviously abit lower. Will have abit more of a test later on


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## Hjtt (Oct 19, 2012)

aaron_tt said:


> As promised some pictures of them fitted to my car for you lot
> 
> Literally just got back drove straight home so springs still settling abit and haven't got any of the whole car yet as still needs a clean!:
> 
> ...


nice 1 m8 looks well good


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## aaron_tt (Sep 18, 2012)

Few more overall pics of them fitted for you lot:





































All pics of my car with them on can be seen in my thread if you want:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=298176&start=15

Cheers 8)


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## M18NTT (Dec 30, 2011)

A few more pics of mine now that the springs have settled a tad


































































Will be booking a trip to the TT Shop this week to check out the alignment. I'm sure some bushes or tie bars will probably be on the menu. Also developed a bit of a rattle from the near-side rear, again probably bushes so need to get it checked anyway.


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## ades tt 180 (Jun 19, 2011)

Looks good mate!... You got a good shine on that paint!


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## Hjtt (Oct 19, 2012)

Looking good reader !!!


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## M18NTT (Dec 30, 2011)

ades tt 180 said:


> Looks good mate!... You got a good shine on that paint!


Yeah but not so good close up. A few swirls and a few stone chips on the front. I can sense a DA polisher may be on the horizon for the general bodywork. I've always fancied trying my hand at a machine polish finish, I've seen a few professionally done and they do look impressive.


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## mullum (Sep 16, 2011)

If anyone goes ahead and gets tie bars - perhaps consider organising a group buy. There are probably a few other people would be keen. Perhaps ECP would do 30% off on these too ?


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## JohnD (May 7, 2002)

Hi All,

They do seem like a bargain, I've just found out that both my rear Eibach springs have snapped again. I'm on my 3rd set in 11 years and they are double the price. Looks like I'm off to euro car parts! Are these progressive rate springs the same as Eibach?

Thanks,

John.


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## mullum (Sep 16, 2011)

Possible group buy for tie bars, or info on alternative options here :
viewtopic.php?t=300182


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## richyboy (Jul 27, 2009)

Yeh I'd be up for a group buy if they were forge ones?


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## Beastie TT (Nov 14, 2012)

mullum said:


> Possible group buy for tie bars, or info on alternative options here :
> viewtopic.php?t=300182


I've posted some useful links on page 1 of the above thread. 
Sorry, but I'm not sure how to copy a post into differnt threads.


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## mullum (Sep 16, 2011)

Allow me :



Beastie TT said:


> I'd be up for a group buy, ones to consider:
> 
> http://gruvenparts.com/website/cart/car ... uct_id=382
> 
> ...


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## mullum (Sep 16, 2011)

mullum said:


> Beastie TT thanks for that excellent post .. I've learned quite a bit more from reading those threads .. Problem is of course that the more you learn the more questions get thrown up !
> It sounds as though 2 sets of tie bars (upper and lower) are the ideal solution (to adjust camber AND toe in effectively), which obviously complicates matters financially !
> Then there's bushes, poly vs rubber - and the difference it makes to the effectiveness of the wheel alignment (which is ultimately the final goal).
> I really hope this can culminate in a "definitive" solution and hopefully a group buy.
> Personally I'd rather have the best setup rather than the cheapest .. Having said that, the best setup for the cheapest price would be ideal ;-)


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## richyboy (Jul 27, 2009)

Does anyone have both rear tie bars done? I know everyone does the bottom ones but does anyone have the top ones done? If so are they the same as the bottom ones?


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## Beastie TT (Nov 14, 2012)

mullum said:


> mullum said:
> 
> 
> > Beastie TT thanks for that excellent post .. I've learned quite a bit more from reading those threads .. Problem is of course that the more you learn the more questions get thrown up !
> ...


Thanks mullum, I agree, I want to fit what is necessary using the best bits for the best price, but I don't want to spend unnecessarily. A lot of people on here just fit one set, top or bottom and seem happy with that setup, did you notice Gruvenparts recommend fitting adjustable end links as well, might be a bit OTT.

Maybe if somone who's 'been there and done that' could give some guidance. :?


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## mullum (Sep 16, 2011)

Perhaps ask in the thread you posted a link to (about Gruvenparts).


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## Beastie TT (Nov 14, 2012)

richyboy said:


> Does anyone have both rear tie bars done? I know everyone does the bottom ones but does anyone have the top ones done? If so are they the same as the bottom ones?


You can fit them top or bottom, they're the same item. 
Some fit them top and bottom, for full adjustment of camber and toe or you can use bushes for toe.

Not sure whether top and bottom is necessary but from what I've read these cars can vary, so it might be case by case when you go for alignment.

If someone can advise, that would be handy.


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## Beastie TT (Nov 14, 2012)

mullum said:


> Perhaps ask in the thread you posted a link to (about Gruvenparts).


I might do but this thread seems a bit more 'alive' than that one.


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## mullum (Sep 16, 2011)

True, but this thread probably has more people who are looking to do rather than those who've been there done that .. If they use tapatalk they're more likely to see activity in a thread they've participated in ..


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## tonksy26 (Jan 31, 2011)

I'd be interested in forge tie bars


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## t'mill (Jul 31, 2012)

I'd be interested in some adjustable bars too, price dependent of course. Not overly bothered what brand as long as they'll last and are keenly priced.


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## mullum (Sep 16, 2011)

Hopefully a new thread will begin for a group buy - for now, perhaps check out the options on this thread ..
viewtopic.php?t=300182

Eventually some sort of consensus might be reached and we can get something sorted ...


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## mullum (Sep 16, 2011)

The group buy is on guys, a great set of tie bars have been sourced from the USA from STERN. These bars are even better than the Forge option and a fraction of the price.
Get on the list before its full :
viewtopic.php?t=306883


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## THE OCTOPUS 88 (Nov 25, 2012)

straut said:


> Hi Guys, ok i was just looking on ecp for the price of some apex -40 springs and i saw these there
> http://www.eurocarparts.com/ecp/c/Audi_ ... ddb&000559
> 
> which with our discount works out at £60 with free post
> ...


I am about to buy this ones

They are the correct ones for 2001 audi tt roadster 180 2WD right? it will lower 40 mm?

Regards mates just a quick check before ordering, I am spanish ad I get mixed up reading so many pages

P.D. Dont know if normal but my back wheels are much higher than my front, no problem right?


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## THE OCTOPUS 88 (Nov 25, 2012)

Just took some photos, this is normal? Will the springs apex on the first post (http://www.eurocarparts.com/ecp/c/Audi_ ... a01&000559) go good for me, no rubbing tyre with the car?

I bought the car like this 2 weeks ago, think is all stock springs...2001 audi tt roadster 2WD 180

Back tyre ( 60mm to the mark)









Front tyre(40mm to the same mark)


Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## mullum (Sep 16, 2011)

Nice wheels.

But what is your question exactly ?

I see the springs are going back up to £81 after Sunday .. Last chance people ..


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## THE OCTOPUS 88 (Nov 25, 2012)

mullum said:


> Nice wheels.
> 
> But what is your question exactly ?


If the springs on the first post will work good on mine? on the back wheels I think no problem but on the front it will not touch the wheel?

I dont understand why such a big difference in space from front to back, only question is if I will have any problem of the tyres rubbing the car, mainly in the front as it is only 40mm from touching


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## THE OCTOPUS 88 (Nov 25, 2012)

mullum said:


> Nice wheels.
> 
> But what is your question exactly ?
> 
> I see the springs have gone back up to £81 ..


P.D. The wheels are for sale lol I want some 19 inch, for 700 euros I sell them with new tyres, just 1 month of use


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## mullum (Sep 16, 2011)

You can use the websites tool to find the correct parts for your car (ECP).
Unless your front suspension has already been modified in some way, you should be ok. Your car is pre facelift so the apex springs will lower by 40mm (although aparently it says 30mm in the box, I don't think anyone got to the bottom of that).
Although your wheels might not rub, the camber will need adjusting if you don't want your tyres to suffer from excess wear.


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## THE OCTOPUS 88 (Nov 25, 2012)

mullum said:


> You can use the websites tool to find the correct parts for your car (ECP).
> Unless your front suspension has already been modified in some way, you should be ok. Your car is pre facelift so the apex springs will lower by 40mm (although aparently it says 30mm in the box, I don't think anyone got to the bottom of that).
> Although your wheels might not rub, the camber will need adjusting if you don't want your tyres to suffer from excess wear.


Thanks mate! I will order them!


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## THE OCTOPUS 88 (Nov 25, 2012)

I have just ordered the springs  will upload photos when I put them

And I just saw this photo on the forum...how can you manage to get you car look like this low? do you have to modify something or just lower springs....


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## TT225C (Nov 14, 2012)

THE OCTOPUS 88 said:


> I have just ordered the springs  will upload photos when I put them
> 
> And I just saw this photo on the forum...how can you manage to get you car look like this low? do you have to modify something or just lower springs....


Possibly a pneumatic conversion?


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## Jay-225 (Mar 7, 2012)

THE OCTOPUS 88 said:


> I have just ordered the springs  will upload photos when I put them
> 
> And I just saw this photo on the forum...how can you manage to get you car look like this low? do you have to modify something or just lower springs....


CANCEL YOUR ORDER...

You have a front wheel drive TT, the springs are for Quattro only so will not fit.


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## THE OCTOPUS 88 (Nov 25, 2012)

Jay-225 said:


> THE OCTOPUS 88 said:
> 
> 
> > I have just ordered the springs  will upload photos when I put them
> ...


FUUUUU.... yes? I cancel? can I do it? Okay I will do it thankss!!!!!


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## THE OCTOPUS 88 (Nov 25, 2012)

THE OCTOPUS 88 said:


> Jay-225 said:
> 
> 
> > THE OCTOPUS 88 said:
> ...


Man thanks!! You have saved me quite a bit of money!! Cheers!

Okay so now I am a big frustrated because I want to find some springs for my audi roaster 2001 2FWD 180, are there any these price and quality in these page?

Regards, hope someone can help, thats why my car is lower on the front right? I posted some photos before


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## THE OCTOPUS 88 (Nov 25, 2012)

No one has lowered his 2WD? I am really lost with this and will like to do it

thanks mates


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## t'mill (Jul 31, 2012)

Question for the folk who have bought these springs. What part number is printed on your springs? The box and invoice say 974440035. But I've looked on my springs and they say 9744440031. Are these springs right, or has someone boo-booed at the factory??


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## aaron_tt (Sep 18, 2012)

t'mill said:


> Question for the folk who have bought these springs. What part number is printed on your springs? The box and invoice say 974440035. But I've looked on my springs and they say 9744440031. Are these springs right, or has someone boo-booed at the factory??


Can't tell you now as mine a're on the car. Any pics of what they look like the ones you've got?


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## M18NTT (Dec 30, 2011)

According to the ECP site the part number for the springs ending 0031 are Apex and the part number for springs ending 0035 are A-Max. I have a close up pic of my springs before fitting but the only number that shows (on the rear spring uppermost in the picture) the numbers at the end have rubbed off. Like others that have ordered these the box that my springs came in have an APEX label over-layed by an A-Max label.


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## Hjtt (Oct 19, 2012)

Anymore pics with these fitted ?? Hopefully getting ours fitted tomoz !!


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## aaron_tt (Sep 18, 2012)

t'mill said:


> Question for the folk who have bought these springs. What part number is printed on your springs? The box and invoice say 974440035. But I've looked on my springs and they say 9744440031. Are these springs right, or has someone boo-booed at the factory??


Just realised why this is.

If you look at the picture I posted further back in the thread of mine:










As readerj001 says, ECP have overlayed their own part number sticker onto the original APEX part number sticker from where they were obviously supplied from to ECP, which will be why the springs have a APEX part number :wink:


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## THE OCTOPUS 88 (Nov 25, 2012)

Jay-225 said:


> CANCEL YOUR ORDER...
> 
> You have a front wheel drive TT, the springs are for Quattro only so will not fit.


They could not cancel..I have to send them back when they arrive, but I will have to pay the shipping

So are you sure they will not fit? dont understand why they are different? *Why will they not fit?*

Thanks guyss


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## t'mill (Jul 31, 2012)

Cheers Aaron and readerj. At least I now know they're pukka springs


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## THE OCTOPUS 88 (Nov 25, 2012)

THE OCTOPUS 88 said:


> Jay-225 said:
> 
> 
> > CANCEL YOUR ORDER...
> ...


Anyone can help if they will fit my 2WD? before sending them back...


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## Jay-225 (Mar 7, 2012)

THE OCTOPUS 88 said:


> Jay-225 said:
> 
> 
> > CANCEL YOUR ORDER...
> ...


Well the front will fit but the rear is a totally different spring so you will be stuck there!!

Phone ecp tomorrow and ask if they also do a fwd kit... if not order the h&r stuff.


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## cream2chuffchuff (Dec 2, 2012)

my car just failed on rear springs (1 has a slight crack) / shocks (misting) and few other minor DIY bits; no plate, rear plate light etc...

how much u want for them?A :?:


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## chrisj82 (Jun 15, 2012)

aaron_tt said:


> t'mill said:
> 
> 
> > Question for the folk who have bought these springs. What part number is printed on your springs? The box and invoice say 974440035. But I've looked on my springs and they say 9744440031. Are these springs right, or has someone boo-booed at the factory??
> ...


why does it say 30mm lowering i thought apex were 40mm?


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## THE OCTOPUS 88 (Nov 25, 2012)

Jay-225 said:


> THE OCTOPUS 88 said:
> 
> 
> > Jay-225 said:
> ...


THANK YOU MATE !


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## t'mill (Jul 31, 2012)

chrisj82 said:


> aaron_tt said:
> 
> 
> > t'mill said:
> ...


It depends on if you're pre or post facelift. If you're pre facelift then the springs will lower 40mm. If post facelift then around 30mm. This is due to post facelift cars being a tad lower from the factory than early cars.


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## Hjtt (Oct 19, 2012)

before









after


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## M18NTT (Dec 30, 2011)

That looks better. You'll find that it will settle after a bit. Looks like you need spacers though. The wheels seem a bit tucked in.


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## THE OCTOPUS 88 (Nov 25, 2012)

Guys I just received the springs for quattro in Spain and my car is 2WD...they said the back springs will not fit, they will not fit anyway? veru big difference in size or I can do something..is because sending it back costs me 43 euros!!!

Anyone has photos of back springs of quattro and 2WD?


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## THE OCTOPUS 88 (Nov 25, 2012)

THE OCTOPUS 88 said:


> Guys I just received the springs for quattro in Spain and my car is 2WD...they said the back springs will not fit, they will not fit anyway? veru big difference in size or I can do something..is because sending it back costs me 43 euros!!!
> 
> Anyone has photos of back springs of quattro and 2WD?


No way, just got off the wheel to see the size and 2WD are much bigger..


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## TT225C (Nov 14, 2012)

Any of you guys who got the post facelift -30 springs suffering rear camber issues? Iv got some to put on


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## aaron_tt (Sep 18, 2012)

TT225C said:


> Any of you guys who got the post facelift -30 springs suffering rear camber issues? Iv got some to put on


It does increase camber yes, mines certainly got more, as to how much it would be out now or if it would still be in limits im not sure, haven't got round to getting my 4 wheel alignment done yet


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## spikey120585 (Mar 20, 2015)

Hi guys, can any of you kindly do me a favour unless you already know? At the weekend i fitted my AMAX lowering springs and all is well and has come down quiet alot all round, the back is slightly higher than the front. Im just wondering if i have fitted the rears the right way round? but there doesnt seem much difference either end of the spring tbh. My question is if one of you kind guys could have a look on your TT's to see if the AMAX writing (AMAX974440035) on your rear springs is facing the right way up or is the writing upside down?

Thanks in advance

Steve

i know this is apex and im just using the picture as a example so have you fitted your rear AMAX springs with the writing as you can read it or is the writing upside down?


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## spikey120585 (Mar 20, 2015)

BUMP!!!

Help me out guys 

Steve


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## mullum (Sep 16, 2011)

Start a new thread mate, this one died in 2013


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