# TT RS crash Brake failure. (± 10:00 min IN)



## R5T (Apr 24, 2008)

*"Quote" to the Video: Breakes were at the limit - so I had to pull the handbrake.*


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## mrdemon (Apr 20, 2005)

those look like mules gloves
not good :-(

not sure about pulling the hand brake at 150mph though, though if the brakes had gone not sure what you would do.


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## R5T (Apr 24, 2008)

mrdemon said:


> those look like mules gloves


Mule have RS6 V10 brakes, no problem with them.


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## Mule (Jul 12, 2010)

Its not me 

It was almost the first thing I did to the car..... :roll:

390x36mm 6 pots from the RS6 V10 rocks bigtime!!


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## mrdemon (Apr 20, 2005)

no brakes or not why did he pull the hand brake at 150MPh, he seems to have his hand on the hand brake while still gaining speed, then pulls it. 

note to self, don't pull hand brake at 150mph


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## denTTed (Feb 21, 2007)

The passenger looks very relaxed as it's spinning.


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## andharri (May 18, 2009)

He keeps saying scheize a lot, I can't imagine why!


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## talk-torque (Apr 30, 2008)

Love the helmet abuse.


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## McKenzie (Dec 25, 2008)

Ouch that must of hurt the bank balance. I would of kept it lit and just missed the whole chicane taking through the gravel, it slows you down so quickly.


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## Mule (Jul 12, 2010)

And the funny thing is.....even if he puts good brakefluid, steel brakelines asf, it still heats up....

LISTEN to people who HAS done some research on this....and not people who trust their dealers and do alot of READING about different scenarios that MAYBE the stock brakes will handle.... 

Better safe than sorry. Its not just YOUR car, but everyone on the track, that could get hurt by this.


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## burakusta (Oct 7, 2009)

OMG  what a serious crash that was, you need to be very dumb to hit the handbrake at that speed he is lucky nothing happened to him or his friend and also its clear that at some point he starts to lose the car but he again pushes to the limit


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## VerTTigo (Nov 14, 2009)

denTTed said:


> The passenger looks very relaxed as it's spinning.


Man i felt the same thing! It seems that he was already expecting this shit happening.

Well, the guy really abused the car, always changeing the gears above the ideal point. He pushed the car to 250 km/h in fifth gear! I have to confess that i think the guy has balls for taking the RS to its limits; a shame the brakes didn't last.


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## R5T (Apr 24, 2008)

Apparently the guy race from time to time in the VLN.

http://www.vln.de

This is the car when it still was in one piece.


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## hugy (Dec 4, 2007)

What great footage of the crash.
But an expensive lesson.


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## mikef4uk (Jan 15, 2006)

Does'nt look like he had as much talent as he thought he had, It's just not going to do anything with the rear wheels locked


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## Mule (Jul 12, 2010)

What would you do then, doing 200+ kph and no brakesa??? Coming up to a chikane outside of the racing line??

He did what he could....it didnt end well. Sometimes one are lucky....sometimes one aint.



mikef4uk said:


> Does'nt look like he had as much talent as he thought he had, It's just not going to do anything with the rear wheels locked


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## edowen (Aug 23, 2010)

His brakes seemed to have been ok up to that point? Did he not have some sort of failure?

If he did put the handbrake on, then he's a fucking retard, and deserved to bend it.


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## conneem (Nov 4, 2006)

Yeah they seemed to be fine up to that point. Running it over a few times, there is a tap sound just after he goes past the Focus RS, then another tap/crank which must be him yanking the handbrake if that is true. So maybe the first tap sound is a failure of something.

Anyway I think he owes this guy a new set of underware. I's got sharp eye's I tell ya :wink:


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## Inny (Jan 3, 2010)

Pretty good driving up to that point...not sure if I'm impressed he had the presence of mind to instantly yank the handbrake at the first sign of brake failure or appalled!


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## xraytyd2 (Jan 17, 2010)

I know the guy was coming up to the chicane, but he should have gone straight on and into the dirt. Who handbrakes at that speed.


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## [email protected] (Aug 4, 2009)

Gents, gents, gents - no one here has verified which type of brakes he had...could have been uprated too...so until we can get that info, let us not jump to conclusion.

Can anyone on this thread confirm what brake system he had, OEM or Uprated? What is for sure is that the OEM brake pads are the weakest link in the brake system...we have not yet established if the disc & calipers are also a weaker item for track use...that is what am mostly interested in.

Saw the crash on VAGOC yesterday...looked bad, seems bad, and it makes me - an RS owner with current brake issues - scared to bits. I am almost at the 'upgrade to 19" & larger brake system' point after watching this crash...however, am not one for knee jerk reactions so more facts and research before I will be moved to change.


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## [email protected] (Aug 4, 2009)

OK, I have read some comments on Youtube (where the vid is located) from the owner from the vid posted and he comments that he knew his brakes were on the limit thus he was aware he had no braking...sounds like, though I cannot prove it as yet...that the car was on OEM brakes.

If we can get confirmation from him then clearly he is not saying anything new that we do not know about...the OEM setup (calipers + discs + pads) are not suited to extra power or track use...maybe some *'VERY LITE' *road use however I will even question that.

In any case I have upgraded the pads in my set-up and fabricated cooling ducts to help with cooling so we shall see what happens at ADI - still not convinced I need to do anymore than that at present.


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## ManchesterTTS (Apr 20, 2009)

If you have a closer look, there is a tirewall in the chicane and he didnt want to hit that because he saw people doing this before and that went very bad...



> Hi, No if you pull the handbrake, the backwheels block and there is no ESP working - I had it anyway switched off. But I knew from other accidents at that corner, if I go without brake into the stonefield, the car will crash﻿ into the tirewall and will be completely destroyed.


so that was his only chance to not dismantle his car into pieces...

and the braking system was the OEM Caliper and this uprgrades:

Racing brake fluid, steel flex brake lines, anodised brake discs, brake pads from Pagid and some additional cooling for the brakes

The car was also running on the sportec stage 1 + exhaust and his suspension was a KW V3

He was before that accident happend already tracking his car a few times @ Nordschleife + Spa and everything worked fine... until he came to the Salzburgring...


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## jamiekip (Nov 12, 2006)

I think the issue was more related to the fact he was driving every lap like a quali lap at maximum attack... it's a road car at the end of the day... sorry, but it was an accident waiting to happen


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## Mule (Jul 12, 2010)

Sorry mate, but look at the Porsches going by.....they dont bother. So it should be with the RS....A car like that, should be able to cope with trackdays like that with NO issues at ALL!

AND one can see his setup in the video from the gasstation at the ring. Optimized OEM...



jamiekip said:


> I think the issue was more related to the fact he was driving every lap like a quali lap at maximum attack... it's a road car at the end of the day... sorry, but it was an accident waiting to happen


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## puck (Oct 7, 2009)

I agree with Mule!

The letters RS = RennSport = Racing , i can't understand why you should not push THIS car on a track day...

It is obvious from different sources + this video, that the OEM brakes, even with 370mm disc, are crap. I just don't get why they didn't put the Rs4/Rs6 brakes from first place and they bothered to design a new 4 piston caliper with pseudo 2piece discs.

Mark my words, Audi will upgrade/change the design of those brakes and won't say a single word... [smiley=bigcry.gif]


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## Mule (Jul 12, 2010)

They are a match to the rear caliper of the R8....

The problems are not the disc, but the size of the caliper compared to the disc....It cannot cope with the braking force of the 370mm disc and transfers all heat into the fluid.






7:00 onwards...

The first encounter happened here. And they still hasnt done anything about it.


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## jamiekip (Nov 12, 2006)

Mule said:


> Sorry mate, but look at the Porsches going by.....they dont bother. So it should be with the RS....A car like that, should be able to cope with trackdays like that with NO issues at ALL!
> 
> AND one can see his setup in the video from the gasstation at the ring. Optimized OEM...
> 
> ...


Don't get me wrong mate, I do agree with you, I think it's rubbish that there are so many documented issues on the OEM set up. However, I disagree that an RS should be able to cope with hard laps, lap after lap without issues. It's a road car!
You're obviously a good driver and enjoy pushing your car on track, so YOU have addressed the issues the car faces when pushed hard on track and invested in something more appropriate to your needs.... he didn't, but still drove the car like it was a race car. People who push there car very hard on track are a minority in terms of TTRS owners, so why should Audi create a brake system to cater for that, when it is over kill for 99% of owners. Look at BMW M cars, they are renowned for [email protected] brakes!
I just think that it was as accident waiting to happen in this instance


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## Mule (Jul 12, 2010)

I know...but as a manufacturer, one has to build cars for WCS....

Therefore security measures as brakes, are crucial. They should not just be enough....they should be twice that.

You dont buy a RS just going for Pizzas....you buy it to have fun!


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## VerTTigo (Nov 14, 2009)

jamiekip said:


> I think the issue was more related to the fact he was driving every lap like a quali lap at maximum attack... it's a road car at the end of the day... sorry, but it was an accident waiting to happen


I agree. This is a road car, and even it is an RS, its still a TT. Even Ferraris and Porsches have issues on the brakes on traking days. Road cars are not meant to be driven like this on a track. Coming from 250km/h to 80 several times... Keep in mind, the worst enemy of braking is heating. It doesn't matter how big the discs or the calipers are, a road car cant deal with the heat in the ordinary brakes. If after two laps he had stopped his car and waited to cool it off he could do max attack laps all day.


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## Mule (Jul 12, 2010)

Not true mate ...sorry.

Its a matter of transfering the heat away from the fluid....The larger the disc and caliper, the less heat in the fluid.

It takes more time to heat up a 390x36mm disc with a 36cm caliper mounted to it, than it takes a 370x32mm disc mated to a 17cm 4 piston caliper.

Its pure physics. Almost identical brakeforce going into a pad almost half the size of the RS6 V10 pad. It transfers into 4 tiny pistons instead of 6 big ones.

I'll bet something went horribly wrong with the brakes on the car and it was related to overheating. Could have been a brakedisc exploding...



VerTTigo said:


> jamiekip said:
> 
> 
> > I think the issue was more related to the fact he was driving every lap like a quali lap at maximum attack... it's a road car at the end of the day... sorry, but it was an accident waiting to happen
> ...


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## conneem (Nov 4, 2006)

The problem is that, once remaped a TTRS is a very fast car, >GT3 in a straight line, so it carriers a huge amount of speed into braking zones + it's braking system is very forward biased as there is little weight over the rear wheels. So it really does need some front brake upgrades if you are going to go as hard as that on track in a 400hp+ one.


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## VerTTigo (Nov 14, 2009)

Mule said:


> Not true mate ...sorry.
> 
> Its a matter of transfering the heat away from the fluid....The larger the disc and caliper, the less heat in the fluid.
> 
> ...


This more or less what i was saying. In OEM form the RS brakes arent made for that kind of driving the guy was doing, it desn't matter how big the discs or calipers are stock. Maybe the discs are big and the calipers arent, as you said, but there are more than that, like materials, air cooling system, etc. TTs are not hardcore machines like a 430 or a 911 GT3. I believe that even if you upgrade the RS brake system, it will continue having overheating issues.


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## Mule (Jul 12, 2010)

What do you mean by upgrade?

If you can find a BIG caliper to fit the 370x32mm disc, it would be fine. No issues there.

Its the disc height that are key issue when finding calipers that match.

One could try the RS4 B7 8 pot caliper to see if it fits. I know its a bolt-on for the hub, but dont know regarding disc offset.

One would gain a lot by just upgrading the caliper and fluid. I am just a no compromise guy.....its all in or nothing.


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## mrdemon (Apr 20, 2005)

I can get a kit made by a leading Manufacture which would fit 18" wheels with a larger pad area and a true 2 piece alloy belled rotor

But it's whether people would buy it, or is all this just forum talk.


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## R5T (Apr 24, 2008)

The RS6 V10 brakes would be a good upgrade to do for the TT RS.
Or go the Ceramic way.


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## Mule (Jul 12, 2010)

I am currently working on a set in 390mm direct bolt-on day to day spareparts.

Will be available at around 2500£ and is all Brembo with floating disc.

Currently assembling the parts for the kit and it will be mounted on the car soon.


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## mrdemon (Apr 20, 2005)

all 19" wheel options though.

I would guess a lot of people will be buying 18" rimstock pro race light weight wheels if they want to do track days as buying 18" track day rubber is far far cheaper than buying 19" stuff, also a 18" wheel combo will be much lighter and be a better track option and a better winter wheel option.

they can then swap betwen track day 18" rubber and winter 18" rubber with no brake issues or extra wheels needed.

getting though a set of 19" tyres every 2 track days does not intrest me or a lot of people I would guess, it would make track days very expensive, to buy another 19" wheel and tyre combo and as I say no option to fit a winter wheel combo.

a 18" kit will also have the advantage of fitting both 18" and 19" if people want a winter wheel set up on a 18" wheel.

RS6 v10
Brembo silly money kit
and 390mm disks are all 19" wheel options so limits what people can do, it is a road car after all with people prob doing 4 or 5 track days a year.

If you want a track day car buy a Lotus or a GT3 

but I am sure an 18" proper brake set up can be made to work no problem.


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## R5T (Apr 24, 2008)

mrdemon said:


> all 19" wheel options though.
> 
> I would guess a lot of people will be buying 18" rimstock pro race light weight wheels if they want to do track days as buying 18" track day rubber is far far cheaper than buying 19" stuff, also a 18" wheel combo will be much lighter and be a better track option and a better winter wheel option.
> 
> ...


a MOV'IT 370x35/6K kit would probably fit the 18" wheel.


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## Mule (Jul 12, 2010)

Thats a good option!


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## TT-driver (Sep 14, 2010)

I'm not sure what to think of this. He drives his car to destruction and guess what, it gets destroyed. So now he has proven that a fully equiped TT-RS with the additional weight of a passenger is not really up to it when it comes to a pretty bendy circuit. Having said that, I must say that he did blow away 'the competion' out there and that looked pretty impressive to me.

So I guess in true TopGear style, here it a TopGear Top Tip: if you want to prove that the TT RS is the better car, do it in two laps or don't.

BTW: why doesn't my 2006 TT have those rubber sealings around the doors? I guess those were introduced in a more recent year


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## R5T (Apr 24, 2008)

Mule said:


> Thats a good option!


What do you think of MOV'IT Brakes in general. ?


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## Mule (Jul 12, 2010)

I have never tested a set, but they should be pretty good.

I have talked to them about a full carbon set for the TT-RS.



R5T said:


> Mule said:
> 
> 
> > Thats a good option!
> ...


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## R5T (Apr 24, 2008)

Mule said:


> I have talked to them about a full carbon set for the TT-RS.


And. ?


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## BLinky (Jul 3, 2009)

that vid was so funny.


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## Mule (Jul 12, 2010)

Hi and thank you for the interest in the Mov'It CER brake system!

I was asked to get back to you as their dealer in Sweden. We could offer a 380x34mm brake kit with 6-piston calipers in the ceramic version for the TT-RS, which would require 19" wheels. The price for the complete set front is 8,252.47 £ + VAT. Let me know if you would require any other information or details!



R5T said:


> Mule said:
> 
> 
> > I have talked to them about a full carbon set for the TT-RS.
> ...


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## mrdemon (Apr 20, 2005)

I would want an AP or Alcon kit here in the UK for good back up.

Alcon make the best after market kit for the Nissan GTR and are also the oem fitment for the new Noble 600.

They are willing to make a kit, but it would take a large sum of money from me to do so.

I am in talks with Alcon still and I might make a kit with them, ending in me having to buy 10 kits in total to cover costs.


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## R5T (Apr 24, 2008)

Mule said:


> Hi and thank you for the interest in the Mov'It CER brake system!
> 
> I was asked to get back to you as their dealer in Sweden. We could offer a 380x34mm brake kit with 6-piston calipers in the ceramic version for the TT-RS, which would require 19" wheels. The price for the complete set front is 8,252.47 £ + VAT. Let me know if you would require any other information or details!
> 
> ...


Yes, the price.  
I got a ± 20.000,- Euro price indication for front and rear Ceramic Gen 3 brake kit.
I lost all interest in the kit. :roll:


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## Mule (Jul 12, 2010)

A front kit from the R8 could also be an option. I dont know the price for that in spareparts. But my guess is it will not cost less than the MOVIT kit.

380x34mm is on the thin side. Usually they are 37 or 38mm thick. I dont know if it matters regarding wear....


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## edowen (Aug 23, 2010)

Re hosted here for those that missed it:

http://www.streetfire.net/video/audi-crash_2063815.htm


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## ttjohn (Jun 14, 2010)

BLinky said:


> that vid was so funny.


very funny.
On 230 klm/h pull up handbrake???HAHAHAHAAHA :mrgreen: 
The brakes of TTRS is very good.The hand of the driver is very bad.


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## Mule (Jul 12, 2010)

That would be very close to a direct fit for the TT-RS...

Do you have the price for that?

I prefer OEM supply due to the spareparts deliverytime.


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## R5T (Apr 24, 2008)

Mule said:


> A front kit from the R8 could also be an option. I dont know the price for that in spareparts. But my guess is it will not cost less than the MOVIT kit.
> 
> 380x34mm is on the thin side. Usually they are 37 or 38mm thick. I dont know if it matters regarding wear....


Don't like the idea of half Ceramic.
Ceramics all around or not at all.


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## Mule (Jul 12, 2010)

On the TT-RS it doesnt matter....it only uses the rear brakes for stability. Unladen it has 60% weight on the front axle. MUCH more on heavy braking....

For me it wouldnt matter. But I understand the aesthetics involved 



R5T said:


> Mule said:
> 
> 
> > A front kit from the R8 could also be an option. I dont know the price for that in spareparts. But my guess is it will not cost less than the MOVIT kit.
> ...


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## egi (Feb 23, 2009)

My 2 cents..

I think it had something to do with his wrong driving style. He can't seem to downshift while braking therefore abusing his brakes (for many laps) until it overheated. He was letting the brakes do all the stopping for him.

Thats the beauty of S-Tronic on track. You can help lessen the abuse on your brakes by letting the computer downshift (with blip) automatically for you. Not everyone can do that with a manual especially at those speeds.


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## [email protected] (Aug 4, 2009)

Hi All,
@MULE - why are you considering a change from the RS6 V10 brakes? Also, I may forget about a trip to the Ring on 30th Oct unless I can resolve the brake issues.

@R5T - I want to know if the Wagner IC was worthwhile.

@mrdemon - I will now be interested in a group buy of the Alcon solution that retains the 18" wheels - you can have my brake business...we just need the required numbers from other TT-RS owners to make the purchase. Let me know when you have the numbers. If Alcon want a car for development they are welcome to mine post ADI till 8th Jan.

With all the focus on TT-RS brakes, I had mine skimmed and the garage called today to say they were unhappy when testing the car. Still vibrates so we are going back to new OEM discs for now. The last ones lasted 13k before I had any braking issues...with Pagid RS4-2 pads and some cooling mods we are hoping for better.

I want to stay on 18" wheels so I will wait till new solution comes out that will fit inside the 18" OEM wheels. Am not moved enough to spend over £7k on brake/19" wheels/tyres upgrade especially as am hunting around for a 2nd set of 18" wheels which I will fit CUP tyres for track use only...I had rather sell the car and buy a track focused car than spend on upgrading everything to 19" then brakes.

The other side effect of the brake issues is that the Revo re-map will be on the car however disabled...am not interested in having more power when the brakes are this useless at present - I will use the car after all other chassis related mods for the next couple of weeks and then make a decison as to if the brakes are good enough to enabe the Revo at or by ADI / Castle Coombe.

So my project for this Winter is braking solution - I still think investing in better cooling solution is really the way forward IF, like me, you want to keep the car looking as close to Original as possible...think 'Wolf in sheep skin'.

Anyway that is my current thoughts on this matter and I have not read anything new as yet.


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## Mule (Jul 12, 2010)

I am just Carbon horny....No iussues at all with RS6 V10 setup, but carbon makes me tick


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## Matchu (Jul 19, 2009)

Are the Brembo GT brakes (on 19" wheels) alternative a decent upgrade ? And would that resolve the issue ? (Admittedly at the cost of the owner and not Audi)....


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## [email protected] (Aug 4, 2009)

Mule said:


> I am just Carbon horny....No iussues at all with RS6 V10 setup, but carbon makes me tick


You dirty boy.................!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## R5T (Apr 24, 2008)

egi said:


> My 2 cents..
> 
> I think it had something to do with his wrong driving style. He can't seem to downshift while braking therefore abusing his brakes (for many laps) until it overheated. He was letting the brakes do all the stopping for him.
> 
> Thats the beauty of S-Tronic on track. You can help lessen the abuse on your brakes by letting the computer downshift (with blip) automatically for you. Not everyone can do that with a manual especially at those speeds.


I can,  it's the only way i ever learn to do it on the road and track, that is just the fun to have a manual gearbox, just use it like it should be used.


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## R5T (Apr 24, 2008)

Mule said:


> I am just Carbon horny....No iussues at all with RS6 V10 setup, but carbon makes me tick


Something like this then.


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## Mule (Jul 12, 2010)

Looks veeeeeeeeeeeery nice [smiley=crowngrin.gif]


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## ManchesterTTS (Apr 20, 2009)

i think that it is horrible that the car had the heat problems after all the mods he made ... 

for a 18" option upgrade kit brembo has a solution.. the 355 x32 mm 6 Pot system...


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## R5T (Apr 24, 2008)

996cab said:


> @R5T - I want to know if the Wagner IC was worthwhile.


When is something worthwhile, it's a improvement over the OEM that i can say.
Eventually something like this will be the best option IMHO.


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## [email protected] (Aug 4, 2009)

R5T said:


> 996cab said:
> 
> 
> > @R5T - I want to know if the Wagner IC was worthwhile.
> ...


ok thx


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## mrdemon (Apr 20, 2005)

don't forget the forge intercooler, it's been in trial on the TT shops car for a few months now, and is due to be released mid Oct, its core size is lager than the German one at 560x150x150 excluding end tanks.

and great news people hot off the press a few mintues ago, 8)

I have managed to get Alcon's track support engineer to come to ADi to get data off the TTRS's which go on track.
this is a big step forward imho to making a true bespoke kit for the TTRS at a price people WANT to pay lol.

I would guess it would be a kit along the lines of the racing kits fitted to the CUP CSL race cars or the Porsche Cayman race cars.
These out perform the AP kit for the CSL and are a Monoblock design.


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## ManchesterTTS (Apr 20, 2009)

I'd wish they would do one with a TÜV Teilegutachten *dream*


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## mikef4uk (Jan 15, 2006)

VerTTigo said:


> jamiekip said:
> 
> 
> > I think the issue was more related to the fact he was driving every lap like a quali lap at maximum attack... it's a road car at the end of the day... sorry, but it was an accident waiting to happen
> ...


 +1,
I used to build Porsche race cars and engineer them for a living, even what could be called a track day car (like a 911GT3) will not cope with lap after lap on a circuit without a change of brake pads and some serious cooling, as VerTTigo says ''it's a road car'' and I'll add if it had been prepared properly for track days he would'nt have lost the brakes.

As a rule the pedal just gets longer and longer, and any talented/experienced track day addict will tell you, if you run it over the rumble strips on the exit of a corner you WILL need to left foot the brake pedal before the next corner.............if you want to stop that is


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## mikef4uk (Jan 15, 2006)

I guess not what he did.................didn't exactly work did it?



Mule said:


> What would you do then, doing 200+ kph and no brakesa??? Coming up to a chikane outside of the racing line??
> 
> He did what he could....it didnt end well. Sometimes one are lucky....sometimes one aint.
> 
> ...


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## ManchesterTTS (Apr 20, 2009)

well, maybe some of you should first check out his channel...

http://www.youtube.com/user/MrPatrikkaiser#p/u

or some vids of him:











as you maybe see in the video list that wasnt his first trackday :wink:


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## jamiekip (Nov 12, 2006)

mrdemon said:


> and great news people hot off the press a few mintues ago, 8)
> 
> I have managed to get Alcon's track support engineer to come to ADi to get data off the TTRS's which go on track.
> this is a big step forward imho to making a true bespoke kit for the TTRS at a price people WANT to pay lol.
> ...


Nice work mate


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## jamiekip (Nov 12, 2006)

What I don't understand is why the issue wasn't picked up on by Audi?
The car was tested at the 'ring, and my understanding is they have to conduct 1000's of miles lapping within something like 10 seconds of a benchmark time.. any laps outside that benchmark don't count. Surely, this would have uncovered issues?
Just surprises me after all that testing that were seeing these sorts of problems.
Shame.


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## jamiekip (Nov 12, 2006)

ManchesterTTS said:


> well, maybe some of you should first check out his channel...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/user/MrPatrikkaiser#p/u
> 
> ...


Maybe so, but he was still fluffing changes and clearly couldn't feel has brakes go off... even I could hear them going off and see his efforts to stop getting closer to the wire.
Perhaps he's just abused his brakes to far given all the track work he does, and the amount of abuse he's given them... if he treats every lap he does like a quali lap they will go off.
I feel for the guy, I really do..... but at the same time I saw it coming a mile off.... actually though the same from his last video there in the wet. Sorry


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## [email protected] (Aug 4, 2009)

jamiekip said:


> What I don't understand is why the issue wasn't picked up on by Audi?
> The car was tested at the 'ring, and my understanding is they have to conduct 1000's of miles lapping within something like 10 seconds of a benchmark time.. any laps outside that benchmark don't count. Surely, this would have uncovered issues?
> Just surprises me after all that testing that were seeing these sorts of problems.
> Shame.


Bingo...!

Nailed what I had been thinking for a hwile but never put in to writting.

To add to above, on my last trackday there was a TT V6 owner who had re-mapped and I asked if he ever had any braking issues - response "Nah, done lots of trackdays at Goodwod and brakes are no issues".

So are we to simply conclude that the discs used for the first wave of cars were, erm, 'cheap skate'. Anyway, am getting new discs on tommorrow and I will aim to 'abuse' them...Audi will replace if it goes faulty within few months so here is hoping..!!!


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## [email protected] (Aug 4, 2009)

Looks like he has tarcked the car many times so perhaps the discs/pads were due a replacement prior to his 'accident'. Beginning to all make a great deal more sense - the OEM seem to have held on for long enough.

I would LUV to get him on this forum to shed more light on the history of the brakes prior to the accident...

A job for R5T I think...up for it mate?


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## R5T (Apr 24, 2008)

996cab said:


> I would LUV to get him on this forum to shed more light on the history of the brakes prior to the accident...
> 
> A job for R5T I think...up for it mate?


Have send him a message. :wink:


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## mrdemon (Apr 20, 2005)

OK here is a thought, as I have had loads of fast cars and where i live is brake fade city.

it on a fast dual road with 3 round abouts on it and 130mph bits inbetween. (seen many a car go straight on at the last one)

I can fade most of the cars I have owned on it, even to a point with glowing red disks and smoke lol.

now so far I have yet to get brake fade on the RS, maybe with new disks and full pad thickness the brakes are just upto the job, hence Audi ring tests being ok, and I take it they would change pads often doing miles on the ring.

but after a few 1000 miles and thinner pads/disks, they are hitting a heat limit, thinner the pad more heat transfer etc .
I only know of two cars with warped disks, auto cars and Cab's both had done 10k + miles with the same pads.

I killed my CSL brakes and it's well know the CSL has shit brakes hence people fitting the AP kit, and the CUP racers fitting the Alcon race kit. I did fit pagid pads and they were better but still not track day safe.
Again with my Porsche I could just about fade them on the road, but again I fitted pagid rs42's and for road use could not fade them, but the track day boys could and again Alcon made a track kit for the Cayman S.

So maybe when new and with a good ammout of pad left the RS brakes are fine upto a point and to me so far seem great.
now if i have to change pads at £200 a set of fronts and disks every 8k miles at £400 and bleed the fluid every 2k miles then it will be cheaper to buy a better kit over the 3 years I intend to own the car.

just thinking out loud....


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## [email protected] (Aug 4, 2009)

mrdemon said:


> OK here is a thought, as I have had loads of fast cars and where i live is brake fade city.
> 
> it on a fast dual road with 3 round abouts on it and 130mph bits inbetween. (seen many a car go straight on at the last one)
> 
> ...


All valid points and indeed the brakes are great when new. Personally, I did not notice any issues until after the 1st trackday - that day was rained off anyway so the brakes could not have overheated. The brake issues started about 1k miles post that 1st track day. So there is valid points in your statement reference just accepting that the discs are good for up to 15k road use and perhaps half that for track & road use.

Personally, I would be happy to change discs and pads once a year - it is a £600 spend fitted (service is not far off that anyway) and that is relatviely 'cheap' to ensure optimum braking until a better disc is available from other brands.

Thx for the views...seems like a pluasible interim solution for now to me.


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## edowen (Aug 23, 2010)

plenty more discussion here 

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topi ... &mid=15815


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## keith j (Aug 3, 2010)

What surprised me is that it appears that the driver is decked out in full race gear and the passenger is dressed like he's out for a Sunday afternoon drive in the country. Is there not a requirement to at least wear a helmet on track days?


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## mikef4uk (Jan 15, 2006)

jamiekip said:


> What I don't understand is why the issue wasn't picked up on by Audi?
> The car was tested at the 'ring, and my understanding is they have to conduct 1000's of miles lapping within something like 10 seconds of a benchmark time.. any laps outside that benchmark don't count. Surely, this would have uncovered issues?
> Just surprises me after all that testing that were seeing these sorts of problems.
> Shame.


ITS A ROAD CAR- simple as that, a 'race' cars brakes will not work correctly until about 450c, people who have race type pads fitted for track days soon complain when used on the road, they glaze over and usually squeel like a pig, have no feel and no stopping power when cold, not what Audi want for a ROAD CAR


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## BLinky (Jul 3, 2009)

> ITS A ROAD CAR- simple as that, a 'race' cars brakes will not work correctly until about 450c, people who have race type pads fitted for track days soon complain when used on the road, they glaze over and usually squeel like a pig, have no feel and no stopping power when cold, not what Audi want for a ROAD CAR


i like you.


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## jamiekip (Nov 12, 2006)

mikef4uk said:


> jamiekip said:
> 
> 
> > What I don't understand is why the issue wasn't picked up on by Audi?
> ...


Really.... that's what I've said all along, read my posts in the thread. I'm aware of the differences between road biased and track biased set ups thanks :roll: 
My point is, surely, if there was a big issue with the standard brakes Audi would have picked it up in testing?


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## Mule (Jul 12, 2010)

Well the TT mk1 had stability issues when driving at high speed. Killes a few people and then Audi had to upgrade the car....

To be honest.....i'll bet they give a rat's arse about it.


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## golfmadeasy (Aug 22, 2005)

R5T said:


> *"Quote" to the Video: Breakes were at the limit - so I had to pull the handbrake.*


Its been removed


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## R5T (Apr 24, 2008)

golfmadeasy said:


> R5T said:
> 
> 
> > *"Quote" to the Video: Breakes were at the limit - so I had to pull the handbrake.*
> ...


http://www.streetfire.net/video/audi-crash_2063815.htm


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## mikef4uk (Jan 15, 2006)

jamiekip said:


> mikef4uk said:
> 
> 
> > jamiekip said:
> ...


You obviously don't know the difference between road and race brakes


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## jamiekip (Nov 12, 2006)

mikef4uk said:


> You obviously don't know the difference between road and race brakes


 :lol: 
:roll: are you mistaking me for someone else?

I think you're missing my point here :?


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## [email protected] (Aug 4, 2009)

Anyway,
After all is said & done, we are not really moving the discussion on. I do not think any of us buy a 'road' car thinking...unlike years gone by and am thinking of 'Little Bastard' driven by a certain Mr Martin..."am going racing this weekend". "Today's cars are not made like they used to"...is another saying...so we all accept that with 'Health & Safety' the modern way of thinking is to build a 'road car' that is for road use...accepted. I would then expect, arguably, *THE* most important aspect of any car to be capable of some 'spirited' driving...heck, what would it cost for a manufacturer to offer an upgraded brake system for a 'Sports' termed car...it is called an 'RS', is it not? So where is the upgrade 'Sports' options for those who care more about their safety than the cost?

Whether it is a 'road' car or 'race' car, safety must be at the forefront and therefore offering the paying customer the option is not too much to ask now, is it?

Whatever it is termed as...Road car...Race car...Sports car...it still needs to stop at a critical point...I repeat and note, *STOP AT A CRITICAL POINT!*

Looking at most of the silly comments on this thread specifically those stating '''well it is a road car and so what if the brakes fail when you take it to the track"...with such 'Council Estate' mentality and disregard for your safety and others safety, no wonder manufacturers do not take much notice of safety issues...until the death rate start racking up...one hopes your attitude does not land you in a 6ft box 20ft below ground!

Am happy to pay so give me a complete package and not a half baked package termed as 'RS'. And before any more moronic comments...I do have brake issue with the car...1st time ever on a car and I have owned a few 'Sports cars'...this is by far the worst in terms of brakes...it only lasted 1.5 trackdays...pathetic!


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## ManchesterTTS (Apr 20, 2009)

996cab said:


> Anyway,
> After all is said & done, we are not really moving the discussion on. I do not think any of us buy a 'road' car thinking...unlike years gone by and am thinking of 'Little Bastard' driven by a certain Mr Martin..."am going racing this weekend". "Today's cars are not made like they used to"...is another saying...so we all accept that with 'Health & Safety' the modern way of thinking is to build a 'road car' that is for road use...accepted. I would then expect, arguably, *THE* most important aspect of any car to be capable of some 'spirited' driving...heck, what would it cost for a manufacturer to offer an upgraded brake system for a 'Sports' termed car...it is called an 'RS', is it not? So where is the upgrade 'Sports' options for those care more about their safety than the cost?
> 
> Whether it is a 'road' car or 'race' car, safety must be at the forefront and therefore offering the paying customer the option is not too much to ask now, is it?
> ...


thumbs up !!!

and in Germany there are a lot of people gathering up because of the brake issue the TTRS has... and hopefully Audi will do something...


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## [email protected] (Aug 4, 2009)

*WARNING:* Guys & Dolls, am awaiting to collect my car at 09:00 UK time (it is 07:05 UK time now) this morning so am full of it so pls bare with me...am on a roll...and need to spit my dummy as the misses don't want know about my car problems...LOL!

The thing about the TT-RS is that *IF* you have owned a Sports car before then it is easy to put it through its paces very early on in the ownership and the true merit of it seems shallow...so when buying a TT-RS be prepared to upgrade the following before any 'spirited' driving;

1) ARBs - aids handling of MR and non-MR equipped cars (£500 fitted from APS)
2) Brakes - helps stop the car (£4k fitted)
3) 2nd CAT bypass pipes - You can then hear her sing (£200 from APS...check though)

Am afraid unless above are done from day 1...you will soon and quickly establish that it does have huge shortcomings...do the above and I suspect once re-mapped, you may question why buy anything else around the same price...

What I do not get is items #1 & #2 could easily be a factory option or fitted as STD and charged accordingly...WTF is wrong with you Mr Audi? *YOU ARE MISSING OUT ON ADDITIONAL SALES OPPORTUNITY, SIR!*. I had rather see the above items on the option than some of the ridiculously overpriced items like set of mats priced at over £400...do me effing favour...who the hell in their right mind buys a set of mats for £400 for ANY CAR...even a Phantom...still traps shame crap your shoes drags in to the car so WHY such a huge expense...are you MAD?

Right, rant over...off for a calming cup of strong tea...back in a mo...hopefully, in a better mood...


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## mrdemon (Apr 20, 2005)

the fact is the brakes seem ok for the road ?, and as I have said better than most cars.

the other fact is you have never tracked any of your other sports cars, so would have not seen now bad 90% of cars are on track brake wise.

I have put Pagid rs42 pads in 80% of my road cars as I get fade in just about any car I have owned.

if you want better brake set up its not just about disks and calipers etc.

you need SRF fluid, you need to do a trick race cars do and put titanium shims behind your brake pads to stop heat transfer.
you need to bleed you fluid after every track day (and at £60 a pot of SRF it starts getting expensive) you need to change your pads once they are half worn.

all these things race teams do when racing cars, doing a track day (which can be more miles than a touring car race) you need to expect to do the same, and as a side note a race car will use a much higher temp pad which has no bite when cold, again no use on a road car.

A standard touring car race is 20 laps a track day you will do 100 miles 

the GT3 has issues, most gt3 owners change the Porsche disk, the mighty NIssan GTR has brake issues the kits for them are circa 8k, any BMW has brake issues they are know for fitting sub standard brakes, the CSL could not even do 1 lap on a track day.

I would say most roads cars you can fade your brakes with just 5 100 mph stops.


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## mikef4uk (Jan 15, 2006)

We used to bleed the brake fluid after every 2nd session, you may have 4 practise sessions on the Friday, a practise and qualify on the Saturday, and two races following that on Sat/Sun, so it's once before you get there, twice on the Sat and in between races................That is a lot of expensive SRF.

Thats not including a change of discs (already bedded in) and maybe 3 sets of pads, it does get seriously expensive


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## SportecTTRS (Sep 27, 2010)

Hi 
I was the driver of the TT RS crash Brake failure and was asked to tell you about my brakes. 
The brakes are the original brakes with Bagit Brake Pads (Ceramic) and Steeflex Brake Houses as well as Racing Brake Fluid and the Disks are also modified - sorry, the expressions I'm using may not be correct but my mother tongue is german.

The problem was, that I hat a mate (approx. 100 kilogramms heavy) in my car and so the breakes got much faster exhausted. There was absolutely no warning at any curve before that the brake would get weak!! Thats fact!!

I pulled the handbrake because I knew - and it was after crash again confirmed by the manager of the race track- that the gravel only slows me down 50 km/h and so I would have crased into the tirewall (with steel poles inside) with approx. 170 km/h and so the car would be completely damaged.

After my crash I was able drive back to the pit. The damage costs approx. £ 6'000.-- because only the "plastic parts" and the left headlight were damaged. I don't know how that happened, but both ends of the exhaust were completely filled with dirt and grass 

I was really lucky not to turn over on the roof. In the future, I will never take a mate on the track for fast laps again because I could't live with the fact that any person got disabled because of me.

I removed this clip from my Youtube channel because I was tired to read all the "super smart" comments like asshole etc.


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## Mule (Jul 12, 2010)

Good to hear you were both ok.


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## SportecTTRS (Sep 27, 2010)

By the way: The Co-Pilot wore a helmet but he didn't have racing belts like me.


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## Inny (Jan 3, 2010)

Scary crash - glad both of you were OK and the car will drive another day!
Not sure if you're willing to start a dialog about this, but for those of us who do track these cars, your skillful driving right up to the point where everything goes wrong is worrisome. Apparently the fluid suddenly boiled with no prior warning and left you with nothing? Did you pump the brakes? How did you manage to instantly yank the e-brake? The video made it look like you were preparing for this ahead of time - I'm sure 90% of us would have attempted to drive right through, with potentially an even worse result!


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## R5T (Apr 24, 2008)

SportecTTRS said:


> Hi
> I was the driver of the TT RS crash Brake failure and was asked to tell you about my brakes.
> The brakes are the original brakes with Bagit Brake Pads (Ceramic) and Steeflex Brake Houses as well as Racing Brake Fluid and the Disks are also modified - sorry, the expressions I'm using may not be correct but my mother tongue is german.
> 
> ...


Viele dank für die Erklärung.


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## sixdoublesix (Nov 3, 2009)

where has the video gone? can someone repost it please


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## [email protected] (Aug 4, 2009)

R5T said:


> SportecTTRS said:
> 
> 
> > Hi
> ...


SportecTTRS und R5T, viele dank.


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## Matchu (Jul 19, 2009)

R5T said:


> SportecTTRS said:
> 
> 
> > Hi
> ...


Does this give us much in the way of insight into the OEM brake set up and weaknesses ?


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## [email protected] (Aug 4, 2009)

Matchu said:


> Does this give us much in the way of insight into the OEM brake set up and weaknesses ?


I say yes - all we now need to know from SportecTTRS is how many trackdays or laps he had completed on the same discs...my guess is that it will be a relatively high number.

So I guess the key here is to check disc and pad life after each trackday - note that he states he had fade issues a few corners prior to the issue so the discs/pads were at the end of their life anyway.

So SportecTTRS , how many laps had the discs done prior to failure?


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## mikef4uk (Jan 15, 2006)

mrdemon said:


> the fact is the brakes seem ok for the road ?, and as I have said better than most cars.
> 
> the other fact is you have never tracked any of your other sports cars, so would have not seen now bad 90% of cars are on track brake wise.
> 
> ...


+1, the amount of people that take their Porsche to the track expecting race car performance, two, three laps they come over and say 'my brake pedal is on the floor'...............

There is also a huge difference between race car drvivers and how hard they are on the car, we had two drivers, one was always about 0.7 seconds faster than the second driver, Donnington is VERY hard on brakes due to the 3 virtually dead stops, the faster driver would bring the car in like it had been out for a Sunday run, the second would bring the car in with smoke pouring from all 4 wheels.

Oddly many drivers go quicker when the brakes are getting tired towards the end of the day, this is because instead of standing the thing on it's nose at the last moment before the corner and upsetting the car they have to brake earlier and with not as much bite so enter the corner with more control and the car takes it's 'set' sooner

In the same way as std tyres, Michelin PS2 etc will not last on a track day neither will your brakes.............they are both designed for road use..............................

A lot of Porsche GT3 owners remove the std composite discs because one trip into the gravel and all 4 are knackered, they are so easy to knacker, one trapped piece of gravel is all it takes, and the cost? from memory about £1500 per corner


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## jamiekip (Nov 12, 2006)

SportecTTRS said:


> The problem was, that I hat a mate (approx. 100 kilogramms heavy) in my car and so the breakes got much faster exhausted. There was absolutely no warning at any curve before that the brake would get weak!! Thats fact!!


Appreciate you coming in here to tell your side of the story... but seriously, you're blaming the fact you had a passenger in the car? Do you try and make sure not to go on track with a full tank of petrol too? :roll:


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## jamiekip (Nov 12, 2006)

mikef4uk said:


> There is also a huge difference between race car drvivers and how hard they are on the car, we had two drivers, one was always about 0.7 seconds faster than the second driver, Donnington is VERY hard on brakes due to the 3 virtually dead stops, the faster driver would bring the car in like it had been out for a Sunday run, the second would bring the car in with smoke pouring from all 4 wheels.
> 
> Oddly many drivers go quicker when the brakes are getting tired towards the end of the day, this is because instead of standing the thing on it's nose at the last moment before the corner and upsetting the car they have to brake earlier and with not as much bite so enter the corner with more control and the car takes it's 'set' sooner


100% agree with that


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## mrdemon (Apr 20, 2005)

how about the 8 pot RS5 calipers ?

the disks are about the same as the TTRS at 365mm


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## Mule (Jul 12, 2010)

The OEM pads are VERY bad.....But caliper size is good. But I dont think they fit the disc height of the TT-RS OEM disc.

But its worth trying.


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## mrdemon (Apr 20, 2005)

you could also use the RS5 disks if that was an issue.


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## Mule (Jul 12, 2010)

Depending on the disc offset.

Thats why I think the Brembo from the TT Shop is kind a odd.

Its doesnt look like a true bolton regarding disc offset.



mrdemon said:


> you could also use the RS5 disks if that was an issue.


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## R5T (Apr 24, 2008)

Audi Ceramics.

View attachment 2

View attachment 1


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## Mule (Jul 12, 2010)

Yes yes....but you havent told us the price and where I cqan buy a pair 



R5T said:


> Audi Ceramics.
> 
> View attachment 2
> 
> View attachment 1


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## R5T (Apr 24, 2008)

Mule said:


> Yes yes....but you havent told us the price and where I cqan buy a pair


Ceramic disc/rotor 4000,- each  and it's a RS4 B7 OEM part. :wink:


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## Mule (Jul 12, 2010)

Yeees, but what is MY price 



R5T said:


> Mule said:
> 
> 
> > Yes yes....but you havent told us the price and where I cqan buy a pair
> ...


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## mrdemon (Apr 20, 2005)

a lot lol 390mm aswell i think they are $15,000 a set.

as for the Brembo gt kit,

it's a big no for me, spacer's suck imho.

8mm will give you road rash all down your side sills, the TT wheels stick out enough already.

and also increase the understeer, which is what we are all tring to rid the car of lol.


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## R5T (Apr 24, 2008)

Mule said:


> Yeees, but what is MY price


MY price. ???


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## Mule (Jul 12, 2010)

The RS4 B7 discs could be very close to direct fit due to the very small offset on the disc.


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## conneem (Nov 4, 2006)

mrdemon said:


> a lot lol 390mm aswell i think they are $15,000 a set.
> 
> as for the Brembo gt kit,
> 
> ...


Yes 8mm don't look right on the front's IMO but increasing the track on the front while leaving the rear unchanged will reduce understeer will it not?

I have these ready to go on mine (not an RS by the way) 8)


















These have in effect a 3mm spacer built into the bell and I am hoping by my calc's and profile cutout's should give me 3mm clearance on my Turbines


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## mikef4uk (Jan 15, 2006)

Rule of thumb, increasing front track will increase understeer, it will also make the ackerman steering wrong, ackerman theory is that if you take a line from the centre of each wheel when viewed from above no matter what steering input is applied the two line should cross along the rear axle axis


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