# What a Trip!! (Ring & Spa)



## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

Got back yesterday from what i can only describe as a few days of Automotive Sex. By far the most fun you can have with your clothes on.

The trip got off to a very bad start, when i met up with the Northern Travellers at Hull on Friday Afternoon, i realised i'd left my bloody wallet at home complete with all my Sterling cash & all my cards :evil: (good job i had my Euro's packed elsewhere & my travelling companions came to my rescue).

The Mini-Cruise to Rotterdam was perfect with some good beer, good food, good cabin & great company. In our group we had 2 X CSL's, a modified RS4 Avant (B5), my E60 M5 & a stunning 996 GT3 with various modifications. As everyone says, it's the people that make these trips great & all 17 on this trip were A1.

Arrived in Rotterdam on time so had a relaxing drive the 280miles to Nurburgring (yeah right :lol: ) We averaged about 100MPH on most of the motorways & arrived in time for Lunch although i of course needed a splash & dash fuel stop having only got a 200mile range at those speeds. The roads in Europe are just so pleasant to drive.

The Ring was closed on Saturday (we knew this), however the reason it was closed was due to some VLN racing (i think that's the series name). So we pootled off for some race viewing & were rewarded with quite a sight, The series includes about 20 classes with everything from Ford Fiestas to Lambo Gallardos & many many Porsches. The racing was intense, enhanced by some excellent weather (all week). Jesus can these cars get round the track quickly. The event covers the GP track as well as Nordschliefe & they really were quite a sight to watch.

Then back to the hotel to meet up with the Southern travellers who had not had quite the clear run we'd had. We all then needed a few beers to start the trip off correctly (some had a little too much :lol: ) followed by dinner & some well earned sleep in readiness for Sunday morning & the beast which is known as The Ring.

The weather was very very kind so we all headed off to arrive at the track for opening time then straight out for a couple of sighting laps. I only managed about 8 laps in total as i wanted to preserve some rubber for Spa. The place became mobbed about lunchtime & this as usual lead to the usual nutters on track & the subsequent closures. Some beautiful machinery going out (saw a few UK TT's at The Ring who appeared to be with The Ring 700 trip).

In the dry very few places create the same joy as this track as when driven well the feeling of achievement is over whelming. As the track was dry & not too busy in the morning i pushed on in full power, minimal traction control & sport handling mode & the car behaved perfectly. A few minor moments but nothing to scare & overall i was very pleased with my progress. Also quite chuffed that now having covered about 65 driven laps, the lines & corners are starting to become known although still a long way to go before i can say i know each corner/sequence fully.

Once happy with the days progress, most of us left to collect bags from the Hotel & start our shortish 130 mile drive to Spa. The route took in some stunning scenery & we'd decided to not hoon this part of the trip to again save the wear on consumables.

Arrived in Spa & met up with the others staying in our hotel, then a quick freshen up before meeting the reaminder of the group in town for a great dinner & of course a few drinks. Of course much talk about the days driving exploits & some build-up to the 2 up-coming days at Spa.

Now it gets even better. We arrived at Spa Francorchamps in time for the 07:30 sign-on & 08:30 briefing & just to take in the awesome atmosphere of the place. Lots of different car clubs/groups attending from Porsche, TVR, Lotus & many others as well as our posse. After seeing so many race prepared cars i was starting to get more than a little nervous as i was not expecting GT3 Cup & Race cars as well as many other race prepared cars on slicks.

Did the 2 sighting laps & was grinning from ear to ear at how near to perfect this track would be for the M5. Very long straights, sweeping corners, wide tarmac, some challenging off camber double apex corners & over 4 miles in length.

I'm not mentioning any names of those who came for obvious reasons but the metal consisted of 3 x CSL's, 2 x 996 Turbos, 2 x 996 GT3's, a 996 GT3 RS, a Boxter S, a 993 Turbo, a race spec Exige, my E60 M5, Audi S4 & a Clio Trophy. Managed PAX laps in most of these cars & they're all very capable track cars & were all very well driven. I now totally get the Clio as a proposition as it's so much fun being in a 3 wheeler :lol: .

Anyone who enjoys taking their car on track HAS to drive Spa as it really is out of this world. My M5 soaked up the track very well indeed & enjoyed playing with the GT3's, Elises some Scoobys on the 2nd day & other exciting motors. Learning the track is easier than i thought & the tuition i took helped no end. We'll all be talking about this trip for many months to come & needless to say i'm signing up for both trips next year, then being in May & October. We even had a surprise visitor for our day at The Ring :wink: I knew you'd make it 

Most of my laps i took passengers out & i liked the constructive feedback i got. Bottom line is my car is very capable at Spa (& The Ring) & the driver is more capable than he thought. My 4 lap sessions consisted of a warm-up sighting lap at reasonable speed, a techincal lap to practice my lines, approaches & exits, a lap where i'd have some real fun & push the car closer to it's limits (lines were often not perfect on these laps) & a cooling down lap.

I've managed to take 2/3rds off the rear tyres (had only covered 1000 miles before this trip) & taken 80% wear off the brand new front pads. The front tyres will need replacing very soon, as will the rear pads, but i think i'll manage Outlon Park in a couple of weeks on these tyres, however the pads are being replaced next week (makes for a very expensive trip with the many many tanks of fuel).

The best road trip i've ever been on by a long way & it was just so very satisfying that i'm now 100% addicted to Spa & 90% addicted to The Ring.

Many thanks to those on here who made the trip what it was & also to those on TDH & other Forums. I can't wait to go back.

If anyone has about 10MB hosting space i can use, please let me know & i'll fire across some pro pictures from Spa.


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## BorderFox (Jun 21, 2003)

Sounds like an amazing trip. Ive always loved Spa, I`ve been to a few Grand Prix there, I think I`ll have to pay it a visit next year.
Get some pics posted.


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## jam (May 8, 2002)

Good read that mate - sounds like a great trip!


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## BAMTT (Feb 22, 2004)

Sounds like a good trip whilst having never been to either always prefered the idea of SPA

I have some hosting space for pics you will need to upload yourself though as i can't from work


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## Carlos (May 6, 2002)

W7 PMC said:


> Most of my laps i took passengers out & i liked the constructive feedback i got. Bottom line is my car is very capable at Spa (& The Ring) & the driver is more capable than he thought.


What a trip, what a guy 

So it turns out that you're actually more capable than you thought? Wow that _is _capable. Lets hope Ron Dennis doesn't find out, or poor Lewis Hamilton will have to spend another year in GP2... :roll:

Could someone please smoke W7 PMC a kipper? He'll be back for breakfast...

Oh, and


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

Carlos said:


> W7 PMC said:
> 
> 
> > Most of my laps i took passengers out & i liked the constructive feedback i got. Bottom line is my car is very capable at Spa (& The Ring) & the driver is more capable than he thought.
> ...


Carl, i'm laughing as i hope you're joking, if not then a little out of order or are you bored??

My sentiment & that of others stands.

Their's a huge margin between capable & good & i'm nowhere near good. Given the number of track days i've done can be counted on one hand & i've never driven Spa, to have far more capable & experienced track drivers in track machinery to positively comment on both my cars ability & my ability, i'd say anyone would be pleased with that (perhaps you're the exception). I don't expect to ever be better than OK, but OK is a great deal better than when i attended CC a couple of years ago & therefore i'm pleased.

You must i assume be airing on greatness?? For people to comment on my improving ability & skill are comments i was happy to accept. How else am i going to learn??

If you were trying to be funny then ignore the above.


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## Carlos (May 6, 2002)

Duly ignored


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

Carlos said:


> Duly ignored


*LOL*.

Been a very long & tiring week, so perhaps i'm a little over sensitive


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## tdk (Jul 22, 2003)

Sounds like you had LOTS of fun and I'm very envious - my first and last trip to the Ring was back in 2002 in my M3. I've been wanting to go back for some time, but haven't gotten around to it.

I'll be moving back to an //M powered car shortly, so perhaps a trip out in the spring may be in order! 

Simon.


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## MBK (Jan 25, 2004)

Great write up Paul!

Trackdays seem to attract some amazing full race kit these days - I think the pro's have caught on that it's just cheap testing time! For me this has just taken the edge of trackdays, especially at places like the 'ring where I seem to spend more and more time having to get out of some uber-machines way, which spoils the fun for everyone! Spa sounds great I will have to give that a go.

Like you I measure my performance against my own improvement, not the pro's. I have started to find that even as my pace has got quicker I am only 'on it' for a couple of sessions - then fitness/concentration really plays a part!


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

MBK said:


> Great write up Paul!
> 
> Trackdays seem to attract some amazing full race kit these days - I think the pro's have caught on that it's just cheap testing time! For me this has just taken the edge of trackdays, especially at places like the 'ring where I seem to spend more and more time having to get out of some uber-machines way, which spoils the fun for everyone! Spa sounds great I will have to give that a go.
> 
> Like you I measure my performance against my own improvement, not the pro's. I have started to find that even as my pace has got quicker I am only 'on it' for a couple of sessions - then fitness/concentration really plays a part!


Could not agree more. The Ring is getting more crazy every time i go & i think i'll only do Ring trips next year that are mid-week as most of the nutters tend to only play at the weekend.

At Spa, even though their were some proper track machines present, i at no time felt under pressure even though i did spend quite aot of my time indicating to let faster cars/drivers through. Being open pit, some of my sessions had no cars come past me & some had a few, but the same worked both ways as i was able to overtake some tasty motors as well (some of them weren't even on cool down laps :lol: ).

I found that being "on it" for more than 2 laps got a little scary, as both the car & driver are not really capable of that level of punishment & i also learnt a further valuable lesson that as i did not know every car & driver on track, their is no real point gunning for them as the driver or car may be able to crucify me & that could lead to a needless crash inducing error whilst trying to catch/pass them.

Roll on May for my next visit.


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## ResB (Apr 17, 2005)

W7 PMC said:


> MBK said:
> 
> 
> > Great write up Paul!
> ...


Paul,

Let me know when your thinking of going. If your going to the Ring mid week, I might just tag along. 

Cheers,

Rich


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

ResB said:


> W7 PMC said:
> 
> 
> > MBK said:
> ...


No problem Rich.

I'd guess my first visit to The Ring will coincide with Spa in May, so travel over to Rotterdam on a Saturday night to arrive in Belgium Sunday lunchtime, then Monday & Tuesday doing track days at Spa, then across to Nurburg for perhaps Wed & Thurs, leaving for home Thurs night. Should know the Spa dates within the next couple of weeks, however The Ring dates are not usually published till around March time so i may have to hetch my bets.


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## ResB (Apr 17, 2005)

W7 PMC said:


> ResB said:
> 
> 
> > W7 PMC said:
> ...


Nice one, I'm convinced. I'm in.


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

Where is the spa Paul?

Did you have a nice massage as well? :wink:


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

vlastan said:


> Where is the spa Paul?
> 
> Did you have a nice massage as well? :wink:


Sorry Nick, although their are many nice spa's in Spa, we were too busy driving to entertain such activities. Pampering is for the ladies.


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

ResB said:


> W7 PMC said:
> 
> 
> > ResB said:
> ...


Rich, as soon as i know i'll let you know. Being in Yorkshire, the Hull-Rotterdam Mini-Cruise would be perfect for you. We would have a GT3, RS4 Avant & a couple of CSL's coming across with us as this is by far the better route for those up North, than a treck down to Dover.


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

The first question was serious Paul. Where is the Spa in Germany?


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## b3ves (May 6, 2002)

vlastan said:


> The first question was serious Paul. Where is the Spa in Germany?


Nowhere in Germany. Spa is in Belgium, near Liege and the Spa Francorchamps circuit (in Francorchamps, a few miles from Spa)is the usual home of the Belgian F1 GP.


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## b3ves (May 6, 2002)

W7 PMC said:


> I now totally get the Clio as a proposition as it's so much fun being in a 3 wheeler :lol: .


Glad you enjoyed it.

I have some in-car video footage to upload from the weekend (I was there with my Lotus chums who did Zandvoort, the Ring and Spa over the long weekend) and will sort it within the next few days.


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## b3ves (May 6, 2002)

W7 PMC said:


> I'm not mentioning any names of those who came for obvious reasons but the metal consisted of 3 x CSL's, 2 x 996 Turbos, 2 x 996 GT3's, a 996 GT3 RS, a Boxter S, a 993 Turbo, a race spec Exige, my E60 M5, Audi S4 & a Clio Trophy. Managed PAX laps in most of these cars & they're all very capable track cars & were all very well driven.


Perhaps with the notable exception of the CSL metal that was abruptly introduced to 3 lengths of armco and 2 uprights at Pouhon :?


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

b3ves said:


> W7 PMC said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not mentioning any names of those who came for obvious reasons but the metal consisted of 3 x CSL's, 2 x 996 Turbos, 2 x 996 GT3's, a 996 GT3 RS, a Boxter S, a 993 Turbo, a race spec Exige, my E60 M5, Audi S4 & a Clio Trophy. Managed PAX laps in most of these cars & they're all very capable track cars & were all very well driven.
> ...


Indeed. I was leaving that off-forum just in case.

The car will be ready in plenty of time for Spa in May. A bit of filler & some T-CUT & it will be as good as new :wink:

Me thinks 1100 Euros was a bit of a kick in the nuts though  I'm in the wrong job as armco repair is defo the line of work to be in.


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

b3ves said:


> W7 PMC said:
> 
> 
> > I now totally get the Clio as a proposition as it's so much fun being in a 3 wheeler :lol: .
> ...


Twas great fun Rob. TBH it did get me thinking again about a lighter more handling focused car for such trips, however i can't quite convince myself that it will get used enough what with family & work commitments etc. I'll use the M5 for OP, Brands & Spa/Ring in May & see how i feel then. The M5 although capable & fun, does cost far to many Â£Â£'s in consumables after such abuse & for that reason among others a sudo track car would be better.

As a comprimise for now, i'm going to fit PS2's along with H&R Springs & Spacers & better pads to the M5 & see how that feels for the next few events. Not a huge cost & may save on wear & tear enough to justify their cost.

The Exige proposition is shouting out to me & if OK with you, in the New Year i'd like to pick your brains on this as an option?. So many of the LOT folk were running awesome machines & they looked so much fun on track.


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

W7 PMC said:


> Once happy with the days progress, most of us left to collect bags from the Hotel & start our shortish 130 mile drive to Spa. The route took in some stunning scenery & we'd decided to not hoon this part of the trip to again save the wear on consumables.


It certainly wasn't a hoon but I did hit 120 a few times. :lol:

It was an excellant weekend in fact it's been a pretty good week.

Sat : To the 'ring
Sun : The 'ring
Mon : Spa
Tue : blast back
Wed : Kneesworth Meet
Thur : Beer and Curry night
Fri : Jonathon Palmer day (review soon).

Spa was awesome but my car is definately more suited to the 'ring. I was lapping in similar times to some Carerra's, Elises and a Renault Spider but the laps were vastly different. I've been talking of getting a toy car for a while and after Spa and then yesterdays time at Bedford I think my car should stay off short tracks now. It's just far to soft and heavy to get any real driver enjoyment. Maybe I've just need a different sort of drive.

Carlos - I was one of the people who comments on W7 PMCs driving. He was a total madman but he does appear to have learnt some lessons and the passenger laps I did showed a massively different driving style. People can change you know....although I still reckon the nutter is lurking close to the surface!

It was good to see B3ves again (I may put the small video I have of you up in a bit 8)  ) and the group with was with was a great bunch. Lapping a track like Spa in a GT3 (even if I wasn't driving) is stuff dreams are made of. I'll definately be going back, I'm just not sure in what car!

I wonder if I can get the ok from her in doors for a Palmer/Jaguar JP1 ! :roll:


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## omen666 (Oct 10, 2004)




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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

scoTTy said:


> W7 PMC said:
> 
> 
> > Once happy with the days progress, most of us left to collect bags from the Hotel & start our shortish 130 mile drive to Spa. The route took in some stunning scenery & we'd decided to not hoon this part of the trip to again save the wear on consumables.
> ...


Cheers Paul. I think their's some praise in your sentence somewhere :lol: It is difficult to drive such a big car in a very composed manner, whilst being technical & having fun. Next time, you're more than welcome to take it out for yourself & see what you think. Bear in mind it's RWD & has 540ish BHP trying to find the tarmac through those same 2 wheels. Rocket science it aint but neither is it very easy. 8)

I'm never going to be quite as composed as say scoTTy or even Damon, as their driving style on track is far more technical than mine at the moment, as they have oodles more experience. I do however fully respect/enjoy that & learn from it wherever possible. If we all drove the same way, accidents would never happen & traffic jams would be a thing of the past.

I made mistakes at Nurburgring & made some at Spa, but at no point did i feel my car was out of control or even approching it's limits. Given the money it cost everyone i wanted to make sure i had fun as well as gain experience so my sessions were 1 lap to warm things up, 1 technical lap where i could learn & follow the lines i was shown by my instructor, then 1 on-it lap where i'd still try to hold lines but be pushing harder, then a cool down lap. This gave me everything i wanted from Spa & has led to me being desperate to go back. It's quite a straight forward track to learn & certainly by comparison to The Ring.

The worst offs at Spa were from far more experienced drivers, including a GT3 Cup car/racer, so i was more than happy to come back in one piece, feeling i'd learnt plenty & had great fun doing it.


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## aidb (Mar 19, 2003)

I enjoyed reading about your trip Paul. Thank you for sharing it with us. 

Have you got any 'in flight' footage? :wink:


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

aidb said:


> I enjoyed reading about your trip Paul. Thank you for sharing it with us.
> 
> Have you got any 'in flight' footage? :wink:


Nope more's the pity.

I've a few on track photos from Ring & Spa that i'll post once they're hosted (hopefully next week). Filming is banned at The Ring & only allowed at Spa if you have a proper camera mount which i don't. I'll be getting one over the Winter in readiness for next year.

I'll post a link to the piccies once they're up. I know b3ves took some footage & i think scoTTy as well. I'm sure they'll be posting soon.


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## b3ves (May 6, 2002)

W7 PMC said:


> As a comprimise for now, i'm going to fit PS2's along with H&R Springs & Spacers & better pads to the M5 & see how that feels for the next few events. Not a huge cost & may save on wear & tear enough to justify their cost.


TBH I would not tamper with you car's suspension and would definitely stay away from spacers. On tracks like Spa and the Ring, the standard M5 can be super quick in the right hands. If you're going to spend some money, invest in the BMW Driver Training at the Ring.


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## b3ves (May 6, 2002)

omen666 said:


>


Awesome shot


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## omen666 (Oct 10, 2004)

Glad you like it Rob, a few more


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

b3ves said:


> W7 PMC said:
> 
> 
> > As a comprimise for now, i'm going to fit PS2's along with H&R Springs & Spacers & better pads to the M5 & see how that feels for the next few events. Not a huge cost & may save on wear & tear enough to justify their cost.
> ...


Rob, the mods i make reference to are not as severe as they sound or expensive for that matter. The spacers only widen the track by about 10mm (might be 8 actually) & the H&R springs are just that, sports springs only. Total cost is about Â£300, perhaps Â£400 fitted. These springs & spacers have been tried & tested extensively in the US & with wheels clad in PS2's the difference in handling is meant to be night & day, yet the cars electronic handling gadgets still function fully & the day to day ride on roads is not even slightly firmer. After looking at some of he Spa photos, the front of the car dives down further than i thought when cornering hard & on a couple of shots it almost looks as though one wheel is off the ground. The above should go some way at a low cost to eliminate that.

I've enquired about BMW driver training, but all i can find at The Ring are the Audi Driving Experience events. Did the Silverstone one so qualify for European, but i assume now i drive a BMW i'd be unable to participate. Do you have a link or any details for the BMW events as i'd love to attend The Ring event.


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

Damon, you've got some cracking photos their. Did you ask him in advance to capture your moments?? I'm still waiting to see the previews of my car but doubt he has quite so many. Did get about 30 at Spa & these should be hosted early next week when i'll post a link on here.


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## ir_fuel (Jan 10, 2003)

Spa is a nice track 8) I ve ridding my motorcycle on it a couple of times myself, and will do so again next year, thats for sure!

The only thing which sucks @ spa is that for motorcycles just after the busstop they put some artifical chicane on the road where you have to ride through in 1st gear coz its so slow, in order to break the speed so you wouldnt smack into the pitwall on the right-hand side.

You guys any idea of the laptimes you are doing?


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

In the CSL pictures why is the tow ring fitted on the front? :?:

In pictures it is difficult to appreciate that speed that the car was moving...but thanks to the red butt plug hanging from the mirror, you can see that the car was going fast.


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

vlastan said:


> In the CSL pictures why is the tow ring fitted on the front? :?:
> 
> In pictures it is difficult to appreciate that speed that the car was moving...but thanks to the red butt plug hanging from the mirror, you can see that the car was going fast.


Nick, you have some very weird toys in your house, god only knows how you'd manage with a butt plug that shape.

The towing eye is fitted on purpose, as if you should have an off & are in a state of shock which is normal, the tow truck would come along & attach his winch to the 1st thing that looks useful, thus perhaps removing the entire front bodywork off you car. The briefing states for your own safety, that of your car & other track drivers it's advisable to fir the towing eye whilst out on track.


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## kmpowell (May 6, 2002)

Awesome pics Damon. I love the pic of you *in* the Karussell!! But the one of you coming up the hill approaching the Karusell is great too, it shouts 'you know what's coming up, get in to the right track position'. 8)

Vlastan, if you go to a place like Bedford, they won't let you out on track without your towing eye attached.


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

ir_fuel said:


> You guys any idea of the laptimes you are doing?


I heard the Porsche guys were sub 3 mins. An F1 car is 1min14secs  

I didn't record all my laps but of them this was the quickest and as you'll see it wasn't perfect. It is around a 3'15. As the day went on I obviously got faster and I got up to 105mph through Eau Rouge. I reckon I was down to around a 3'05 possible less. Not too bad for a family saloon. I guess not many people have to take a kiddy seat out for a track day. 

Here's a couple of videos :

with W7 PMC (small language warning)


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## ir_fuel (Jan 10, 2003)

scoTTy said:


> ir_fuel said:
> 
> 
> > You guys any idea of the laptimes you are doing?
> ...


How much sub 3 minutes? :lol:

With my motorcycle i manage to run 3.01 minutes/lap, but it was my first time there so there is a lot of room for improvement (especially @ radillion :lol: ), the same day there were some guys doing 2m40/lap with their bike.  So I guess an experienced Porsche guy should be able to do this in around 2.30 or less considering the extra braking power and cornering speed.

Ofcourse the most important part is having fun and not crashing your machine. Thats the only price you can "win",going home in one piece :wink:


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

Wasps with very painful stings though


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## ir_fuel (Jan 10, 2003)

Just saw your S4 vid. Some WASPS eh :lol: 
I just hate the busstop, you think its still far away that first 90Â° left and all of the sudden you are there, due to the tarmac behind the corner. Really easy to miss that one under braking imho.


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## Stu-Oxfordshire (May 7, 2002)

W7 PMC said:


> It is difficult to drive such a big car in a very composed manner, whilst being technical & having fun.


I disagree. If you invested 1/10th of cash you did in the M5, into professional fast-road / on-track tuition, you would realise that the bigger the car, the greater the need to deplpoy a smoother and more technical driving style and, the greater the reward in lap time. You would also realise that increase in horsepower counts for the square root of f*ck all, compared to increase in driving talent.

Paul - don't take this as a flame; it's just fact. Take it from me: i had an evo and since then, took lessons


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

kmpowell said:


> Awesome pics Damon. I love the pic of you *in* the Karussell!! But the one of you coming up the hill approaching the Karusell is great too, it shouts 'you know what's coming up, get in to the right track position'. 8)
> 
> Vlastan, if you go to a place like Bedford, they won't let you out on track without your towing eye attached.


But this raises another question. Should you fit it in the front of the car or the back? Depending on how the car crashed you may need to be towed from the back end first, making the front end obsolete.


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## omen666 (Oct 10, 2004)

There is a second hook in the rear bumper vlastan :roll:


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

Stu-Oxfordshire said:


> W7 PMC said:
> 
> 
> > It is difficult to drive such a big car in a very composed manner, whilst being technical & having fun.
> ...


Stu,

No intention of trying to become a track meister, so although i'll continue with tuition when available, my enjoyment is of equal importance to my skill levels.

I can't make the M5 a track car, just as i couldn't with the RS6, i can make slight improvements which i may/may not do.

If i ever get the chance to purchase a track vehicle then i would defo invest in plenty of track tuition


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

Stu-Oxfordshire said:


> W7 PMC said:
> 
> 
> > It is difficult to drive such a big car in a very composed manner, whilst being technical & having fun.
> ...


Stu,

No intention of trying to become a track meister, so although i'll continue with tuition when available, my enjoyment is of equal importance to my skill levels.

I can't make the M5 a track car, just as i couldn't with the RS6, i can make slight improvements which i may/may not do.

If i ever get the chance to purchase a track vehicle then i would defo invest in plenty of track tuition


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

omen666 said:


> There is a second hook in the rear bumper vlastan :roll:


All cars normally come with one hook! So I guess you bought an extra one just for this.


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

Oops, did not mean to post twice.

Stu, i'm not sure why you felt a dig was required, but i fully realise HP is not what makes a good track car & i'm sure you realise an Evo is a more capable track vehicle than an M5 (or RS6), however driver experience is a good differentiator.

I have neither the time nor money to invest in heavy duty training & until i ever find myself in the position of owning a more track focussed vehicle, it's then that i will increase training. My desire is to improve through experience & some tuition & i've got feelers out for the 3-4 day BMW Driver training at The Ring in 2007, however i probably won't own the M5 late next year.

My track skill has improved since my 1st ever track day & that has come about in the main from tuition & track experience & that will continue, but until such time as i own a true track car & have the time to attend a higher number of track days, i'll just keep enjoying my progress & the events for what i feel they are & what i want out of them. Fun is as important to me as skill when shelling out large sums of money for track events.


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## Stu-Oxfordshire (May 7, 2002)

W7 PMC said:


> Stu, i'm not sure why you felt a dig was required





Stu-Oxfordshire said:


> Paul - don't take this as a flame; it's just fact. Take it from me: i had an evo and since then, took lessons


It wasn't a dig..... :wink:



W7 PMC said:


> I have neither the time nor money to invest in heavy duty training


Wasn't suggesting that at all - I've only had x2 meaningful lessons in the last 3 years at a grand cost of about Â£700 for both days, given the subsequent dramatic improvement to my track and ROAD driving, i think the value speaks for itself. Â£700 is about the same price as a service on your car isn't it ? :roll:



W7 PMC said:


> My track skill has improved since my 1st ever track day & that has come about in the main from tuition & track experience


Right so...now I'm confused [smiley=rolleyes5.gif]


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

Stu-Oxfordshire said:


> W7 PMC said:
> 
> 
> > Stu, i'm not sure why you felt a dig was required
> ...


Stu,

Tried calling you last night, but you must have changed mobile numbers as the one i have is now owned by some other Symantec bloke :lol:

The 3 main points are:

1. I AM taking tuition at almost every opportunity as i've done the Audi Driving Experience at Silverstone, had tuition at The Ring in May from the Conti/Porsche test driver (Johann), had tuiton at Oulton park earlier this year, some tuition at Spa last week & got tuition booked again at Oulton in a couple of weeks & Brands Hatch a couple of weeks after that. This not only benefits by improving my track & road driving abilities, but also teaches me the true dynamics & limitations of the car i currently own/drive.

2. My desire is ONLY to become a compitant & confident track driver & that of course will spill over to road driving. I due to time & not owning a track focused car can't get enough benefit from taking heavy duty track tuition where i could perhaps become a preficient (sp) or expert track driver (wish i did have a track car & the time).

3. My final point is about the fun factor. Spending as you rightly state, rather high overall costs mainly made up of the consumables & fuel (the actual track day is the lowest of the costs usually) i want to enjoy these days as much as possible. Although my improving ability is one measure of fun & i do enjoy improving, having true fun comes about (for me) in those little races where you perhaps push a touch too hard & the tyres get a good squeal etc. I do not drive in a dangerous manner & have total regard for all other cars on the track, but driving a closer to the limits of the car is something i can't/won't do on public roads so i limit this to track days. This also relates back to point 2 as i DON'T (at this stage) want to be an excellent track driver, just compitent, drive within my & my cars abilities & at the same time have some learning & being on track.

Not sure if the above makes total sense, but what i want from any track day is not perhaps exactly the same as others want from a track day.

For instance, i doff (sp) my cap to Rob, Damon, Scotty, Carl & yourself (along with many others no doubt), as your track skill levels are higher than mine & deservedly so given your experience & aspirations, but my aspirations right now are not quite the same. Perhaps when Judith finally retires & Joshua is a little older, i'll be able to fuel my passion & split into 2 cars being a true track performer & the obligatory sensible car at which time i'll then go balls out to improve my track skill/ability as quickly as possible, as i'll then be looking to out-perform rather than just enjoy my time on track & have fun.

Hope the above does make sense & it's certainly a little long winded but as they say, "horse for courses" 

Only had a 1st service on my car so far & it was just under Â£200 but i think the main service due at Â£25Kish miles would be close to Â£700. I have put my name down for The BMW Driver Training at The Ring in August 2007 & that costs close to Â£900  but from what i've read, it's almost a pinnacle of driver training so as you state, probably worth every penny.


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## Stu-Oxfordshire (May 7, 2002)

W7 PMC said:


> ....until such time as i own a true track car & have the time to attend a higher number of track days, i'll just keep enjoying my progress & the events for what i feel they are & what i want out of them. Fun is as important to me as skill when shelling out large sums of money for track events.


OK so fun is *"AS IMPORTANT"* as skill yes?

As an absolute trackday virgin in 2002, (before I saw the light and relaised a TT is not designed for the track) I wish someone had told me that my enjoyment factor on the odd trackday I did would dramatically increase if I invested in some tuition. Why should I? I'm not planning to do more than 2 or 3 days a year and_I_do_think_I'm_a_pretty good driver after all... [smiley=kid.gif] what's the point?

Since then, through the relatively small amounts (x1 day with Don Palmer and x1 day with Simon Mason) of tuition I have received, it's fair to say I've been "enlightened" and my attitude towards trackdays is a lot different - fun is very much at the top of the agenda for me however, I want to feel that I'm improving all the same but in no way do I feel I am at a standard which is anything other than "reasonably competent" on track.

Looking at your comments, you seem to think that increased enjoyment of a trackday and improving your skills are mutually exclusive - I can tell you from personal experience that they aren't :roll: 
I'm not having a dig Paul nor am I trying to influence anyone that_unless_you_have_tuition you won't enjoy a trackday; in fact far from it....all I am doing, is picking up on a comment you made: 


W7 PMC said:


> ....It is difficult to drive such a big car in a very composed manner, whilst being technical & having fun.


.....and offering some advice as to how you might enjoy your next outing a little bit more than you did your last one; after all, those *"...little races where you perhaps push a touch too hard...."* are much more fun when you actually know what you're doing :roll:


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

Can't argue their Stu, just my findings to date which broadly match what you're saying.

As my experience grows & i get more tuition, i do enjoy track days more & more. My singular point which perhaps you do or don't agree with is that technical perfection is not what i crave from a track day. Improvement in my ability YES, good fun YES & to leave the day unscathed YES are all very important to me & probably in equal measures.

However if i'm reading what you're saying correctly, the increased ability will provide more fun & of course a safe outcome so their again i agree.

Possibly just crossed wires.


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## b3ves (May 6, 2002)

scoTTy said:


> apart from making a mess with his lunch! :lol: :wink:


Sorry, only just got around to watching this. The car in front when you are going out is not mine - mine's the car on the cool-down lap that you pass at the end.

I have some video (not much) and will try and get it sorted out in the next few days.

Rob


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

Oops I saw even less of you than I thought! :lol:


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

M3 GTR - BMW works drivers - Ring and Spa footage - sort of put's it all into perspective. 






Nice work.


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## b3ves (May 6, 2002)

Me and the Trophy at the Ring - pls excuse the profanities:


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## genocidalduck (May 19, 2005)

W7 PMC said:


> Can't argue their Stu, just my findings to date which broadly match what you're saying.
> 
> As my experience grows & i get more tuition, i do enjoy track days more & more. My singular point which perhaps you do or don't agree with is that technical perfection is not what i crave from a track day. Improvement in my ability YES, good fun YES & to leave the day unscathed YES are all very important to me & probably in equal measures.
> 
> ...


I pretty much agree with you Clarkson...I have no intention off racing my car against others...Or becoming a track driving expert.....Just want to get in my car start her up and have a blast...Don't care who passes me what my lap times are...Just as longs im giggling like a kid all the way round.  :twisted:

But if i do post a good time or pass a quick car then it's all just an added bonus,


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

b3ves said:


> Me and the Tophy at the Ring - pls excuse the profanities:


Nice drive Rob. Good lines and shows one doesn't need monster power when you have a good chassis, tyres and your own trackcraft.

What was that red hatch that shot past at about 8mins?

And as for those pesky point and squirt bikers and 911 drivers.... :roll:


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## Stu-Oxfordshire (May 7, 2002)

b3ves said:


> Me and the Tophy at the Ring - pls excuse the profanities:


Rob, top footage - 10:07 with 20 secs worth or crashes along the way isn't bad for a road spec hot hatch! Shame about the 996T getting away, I dare say you would have kept a lot closer to him for the rest of the lap had you been able to stay ahead into Schwedenkreuz; as you'd have been able to stay ahead then right through to Ex Muhle, barbecue and half way up the long drag uphill...

I have to say, pax'ing with you at Cadwell was the most fun I've had as a pax in a long time. The Trophy is oh so well sorted, and whilst the back end will step out when provoked, it feels so predictable. When journo's talk about the fun factor, for me, this personifies it. Top work [smiley=thumbsup.gif]


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

Nice Footage Rob.

As said at Spa, i now almost understand the concept of small fun cars. Can't say i'd venture into one but i see the fun factor & understand the proposition. The PAX laps at Spa were huge fun.


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## r14n (Jan 10, 2003)

b3ves said:


> Me and the Trophy at the Ring - pls excuse the profanities:


Rob, I think you were very restrained.

Did you go and have a word in the car park with the culprit ?


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## b3ves (May 6, 2002)

Stu-Oxfordshire said:


> Rob, top footage - 10:07 with 20 secs worth or crashes along the way isn't bad for a road spec hot hatch!


Cheers Stu. As for 20 seconds, if you bear in mind the loss of momentum and the lack of straight line grunt, I'd say the yellow flags cost more like 40 seconds off the lap time.

I did record a couple of earlier laps and managed to get just below 9 mins when clear, but the bullet cam / external mic power was loose and consequently it's mostly blue screen with the clock running.

Good news is that once I fixed the power at the Ring, it worked fine when I went to Spa the next day. I'll upload some footage soon...

Re. the car, everything good that's printed is true. Little can come close when it comes to smiles per Â£.



r14n said:


> b3ves said:
> 
> 
> > Me and the Trophy at the Ring - pls excuse the profanities:
> ...


No, to be honest I've resigned myself to ar$eholes doing stuff like that at the Ring and I was guilty of overtaking on the wrong side before Coca Cola. Having said that, I decided my overtake was safe and I've seen the Ring Taxi do it on numerous occasions.

Both cut-ups of me were pretty scary (the Porsche as I turned into Schwedenkreuz and the Lupo thing before Wippermann) and it must go down as one of the more eventful laps I've done. I just wish I had some more footage, but will just have to go back next time 

Cheers
Rob


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## ir_fuel (Jan 10, 2003)

And for how long were those 2 cars behind you before the "unsafe" pass?


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## b3ves (May 6, 2002)

ir_fuel said:


> And for how long were those 2 cars behind you before the "unsafe" pass?


No time at all. The one thing the Clio has is great rear visibility.

Thanks for the sarcasm :-*


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