# Roll cages



## NickG (Aug 15, 2013)

I'll take the first one then! 

Rollcages...

As my build gets more serious I'm going to need a rollcage. This needs to meet MSA standards as I intend to race in some sort of series be it Time Attack or CSCC New Millenium.

So far I've seen a Safety Devices 6 point bolt-in cage, which requires welded baseplates to fix to, but I'm not sure if it meets required standards?

http://www.sportseats4u.co.uk/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=4488

Have also seen a custom cages 6 point full weld-in job, which is to MSA standards but requires fully welding (fitted is quoted as £1200 so about £400 more than the safety devices option)

http://www.customcages.co.uk/Rollca...anufacturer=Audi&model=TT MK1&type=Multipoint

Does anyone know of any alternatives, any installers around Peterborough area, or us any advice on either cage?

Cheers, and, GO TEAM!!! 8)


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## Ikon66 (Sep 12, 2003)

not sure if this is any good but guy selling one on FB TT page

https://www.facebook.com/rhys.gargano?fref=photo


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## NickG (Aug 15, 2013)

Thanks Ikon, I can't seem to find his post on any of the Group pages and his profile won't show me anything :evil: bloody Facebook!!


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## Von Twinzig (Feb 10, 2014)

Let's talk Nick.

VT


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## KarlD (Jul 23, 2015)

NickG said:


> So far I've seen a Safety Devices 6 point bolt-in cage, which requires welded baseplates to fix to, but I'm not sure if it meets required standards?
> 
> http://www.sportseats4u.co.uk/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=4488


I'm pretty sure Safety Devices could answer this if you emailed them...


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## NickG (Aug 15, 2013)

KarlD said:


> NickG said:
> 
> 
> > So far I've seen a Safety Devices 6 point bolt-in cage, which requires welded baseplates to fix to, but I'm not sure if it meets required standards?
> ...


I doubt they'd hold technical information like that...

email has been sent :lol:


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## NickG (Aug 15, 2013)

A very quick response from Safety Devices which is good!

The 6 point bolt-in is MSA approved... that's a result! 

Still looking for any advice on alternative options though, as i've got a bit of time to investigate!


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## cookbot (Apr 19, 2011)

Are you allowed to weld your own cage and have it safety checked? Paying for someone else to do worse welds than I can because they have some bit of paper would annoy me a tad!


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## NickG (Aug 15, 2013)

Having spoken to Safety devices today;



> Please see MSA Bluebook on guidance of welding:
> "1.3.8. Guidance on Welding. All welding should be of the highest possible quality with full penetration and preferably using a gas shielded arc. Although good external appearance of a weld does not necessarily guarantee its quality, poor looking welds are never a sign of good workmanship. When using heat-treated steel the instructions of the manufacturer must be followed (special electrodes, gas protected welding). It is to be emphasised that the use of heat-treated or medium carbon steels may cause problems and that bad fabrication may result in a decrease in strength (caused by brittle heat-affected zones) or inadequate ductility."


Essentially they can be welded by a competent person!


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

You can't get better than the angry woman with the sword and shield. 70's advertising at its best - or not as the case may be :wink:


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## NickG (Aug 15, 2013)

Haha I'll take one of them!!!


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## NickG (Aug 15, 2013)

Would anyone be interested in a group buy on the Safety Debices bolt-in if I could work one?


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## Von Twinzig (Feb 10, 2014)

I looked into the SD bolt in rear cage and it was dearer than Custom Cages weld in full cage. A bolt in cage will still require the blind nut plates to be welded in. This was the SD sill plates on my old Carrera.










And the foot of the cage sitting on the plate....










Most didn't fit as well as this and required considerable persuasion before drilling the clearance holes and welding.

I'd take a look at a welded cage too Nick.

VT


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## NickG (Aug 15, 2013)

That's interesting to see the fitment issues you had VT, certainly doesn't look amazing, was this long ago?

The safety devices kit is currently £811 and we have an automotive welder who would do the plates for next to nothing, although I'd imagine this is providing it fits well!! Safety devices themselves wanted £280 to install, which takes it only £150 short of a fully welded custom cages 6 point

From discussion however there is the benefit of being able to remove bars, if required when working on the inside, around seats etc. and also that the dash can stay fully intact, where as the weld in does require dash modifications.

The other benefit for me is that I can get it done locally, where as I'd need to get the car, fully stripped to Corby and back for a weld-in...

...more exploration to do!

I'd like to hear from anyone who's used a safety devices cage on the TT too, or for that matter custom cages!!


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## Von Twinzig (Feb 10, 2014)

Carrera was 5 years ago Nick. It also required a lot of pushing and pulling, use of ratchet straps, levers, lengths of wood for wedges etc to get it to sit right on the various pickup points. It needs to fit perfectly square on the plates otherwise you can't get the bolts to engage. Was a real faff. I swore weld in or harness bar next time, hence my route with the TT.

VT


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## Von Twinzig (Feb 10, 2014)

Carrera was 5 years ago Nick.

It also required a lot of pushing and pulling, use of ratchet straps, levers, lengths of wood for wedges etc to get it to sit right on the various pickup points. It needs to fit perfectly square on the plates otherwise you can't get the bolts to engage......










Was a real faff. I swore weld in or harness bar next time, hence my route with the TT.

VT


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

Couldn't you bolt the plates on and offer up the cage, then Mark the plate positions or even tack weld them in position before removing the cage and finally welding the plates on? Or am I missing something?


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## Von Twinzig (Feb 10, 2014)

You have to know where the plates are going so you can drill out the holes to recess the welded nuts into. If you bolt the things up first you can't get the cage under the roof skin. Also the gaps under the feet and plates make it impossible to tack down if connected to the feet as there would be big gaps.

VT


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

Hmm.. bigger approximate holes allowing fitting and some movement before tack welding? Just a thought.


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## Von Twinzig (Feb 10, 2014)

John-H said:


> Hmm.. bigger approximate holes allowing fitting and some movement before tack welding? Just a thought.


Maybe John, but then on that car there were these that needed to be exact as they just had spreader plates on the underside of the arches and they were connected to the rest of the cage and at 90 deg to the other feet....










TT might be easier, could be a case of try before you buy.

VT


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## NickG (Aug 15, 2013)

I've (And by i mean Karl) found some good close-ups of the Safety Devices 6 Point Bolt-in online. As John suggested the plan would be to assemble the cage in the car, bolt on the floor plates, tack weld, remove the cage, fully weld, paint the internal then re-assemble the cage... when you say it like that it sounds easy!! :roll:


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## KarlD (Jul 23, 2015)

Without going for a full multipoint weld in (and by which I mean crossing through the bulkhead joining onto strut towers, integral dash support, steering column support etc) the Safety Devices 6 point bolt in seems the most cost effective option. Even the most basic 6 point weld in will require the car to be fully stripped out to fit, then the cage will need painting etc etc blah blah blah *yawn*. Having recently fully stripped my own car to a shell I can tell you it is a complete faff and I haven't even throught about putting it back together again yet.

The problems VT encountered fitting the cage to his Porsche should not be apparent when fitting this to the TT as the sill plates are of a box design which means the captive nuts will be clear of the bodywork making the install a lot simpler. Hopefully.


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## Von Twinzig (Feb 10, 2014)

KarlD said:


> Without going for a full multipoint weld in (and by which I mean crossing through the bulkhead joining onto strut towers, integral dash support, steering column support etc) the Safety Devices 6 point bolt in seems the most cost effective option. Even the most basic 6 point weld in will require the car to be fully stripped out to fit, then the cage will need painting etc etc blah blah blah *yawn*. Having recently fully stripped my ow
> n car to a shell I can tell you it is a complete faff and I haven't even throught about putting it back together again yet.
> 
> The problems VT encountered fitting the cage to his Porsche should not be apparent when fitting this to the TT as the sill plates are of a box design which means the captive nuts will be clear of the bodywork making the install a lot simpler. Hopefully.


If the last para is correct that will make your life a lot easier. Do Custom Cages make a bolt in version? Their kit is much nicer and they do T45, which although more expensive, is lighter.

VT


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## KarlD (Jul 23, 2015)

I don't believe custom cages do a bolt in.


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## NickG (Aug 15, 2013)

Just had another look, custom cages only seem to do weld-in cages, even their basic rear cage is weld-in only. :x


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## KarlD (Jul 23, 2015)

Safety Devices bolt in 6. Done. Decided.

Next...

Nick was showing particular interest in race spec subwoofers - obvious they need to be powerful enough to produce tight articulate bass but need to be truly lightweight units to have any place on the race track. Any suggestions?


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## NickG (Aug 15, 2013)

:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## KarlD (Jul 23, 2015)

NickG said:


> :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## NickG (Aug 15, 2013)

Touché my friend!


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## cookbot (Apr 19, 2011)

NickG said:


> Having spoken to Safety devices today;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Win, I'm making my own then. Just finished my TIG course and it'll be a thing of beauty


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## NickG (Aug 15, 2013)

What's your plans for the Car Paul?

Bearing in mind a cage in a road car (i.e. no helmet) is more of a hazard then anything!


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## Von Twinzig (Feb 10, 2014)

NickG said:


> What's your plans for the Car Paul?
> 
> Bearing in mind a cage in a road car (i.e. no helmet) is more of a hazard then anything!


...and will require a call to your insurers as a lot of them will dislike it intensely, almost more so than an other mod.

VT


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## NickG (Aug 15, 2013)

Yep, when I added it on an old Admiral quote it doubled the price!! 25%+ power Remap only added 20%!!


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## Von Twinzig (Feb 10, 2014)

.....it's one of the reasons I just went for a solid harness bar. My insurers specifically asked if I was planning a cage.

VT


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## NickG (Aug 15, 2013)

Wise choice for the wallet!!

I won't be installing anything until she's a trailer queen... Too expensive!!


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## KarlD (Jul 23, 2015)

NickG said:


> I will be installing everything as soon as possible and stop moaning like a big queen... Sod the expense!!


Fxt.


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## 1781cc (Jan 25, 2015)

Just to hijack a little, but still relatively on topic, what are people's views on the SD bolt in half cage? I am planning my shopping list for parts for my soon to commence track project, but as it will be used on/off on the road as well, I was thinking his might be the best way for me to go over a full cage.

Plus, the price difference over a full cage means a better budget for seats (ie, sparco rev over cobra Monaco pros)

Thanks


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## NickG (Aug 15, 2013)

They're a good little buy for a track cage definitely, allow the use of harnesses and offer a lot of protection in case of rollover.

The only thing to consider and check first is the effect on insurance, because as stated insurers tend to dislike cages due to the head injuries they cause on the road!


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## brushwood69 (Dec 17, 2012)

Mine is a half cage custom fabricated and welded in. With a half cage without tie-ins you will notice how much the top half of the car moves as its not very stiff! So I had mine tied in at the top.


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## 1781cc (Jan 25, 2015)

thanks for the info guys, will also consider the insurance implication as well, need to have a proper chat with Sky before doing anything.


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

brushwood69 said:


> Mine is a half cage custom fabricated and welded in. With a half cage without tie-ins you will notice how much the top half of the car moves as its not very stiff! So I had mine tied in at the top.


Yes, you don't want to idly trap your fingers between the roof and your cage whilst going over a yump! It's amazing how much the shell twists with hard suspension. The cage adds a lot of stiffness to the chassis as does the glass if you've ever driven a car with the Windows taken out. It actually improves the handling, like a strut brace does.

There are also extra braces added to the TTR to help stop the chassis twisting due to the lack of a roof. That, or similar, might also be worth considering.

My rally car was all gusseted braced and plated and was nevertheless showing signs of permanent distortion at the end of its life on the front inner wings but Escorts also suffered from rust.

My later Mk2 had no such strengthening but had all the best Bilstein uprated suspension. I had to take that off the road due to fretting corrosion cracks on all roof corners.

The TT is a stronger chassis but it shouldn't be viewed as a solid object. It will flex. It may not crack but if you want your dampers and springs to be in control then stiffening the frame is definitely a good idea.


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## NickG (Aug 15, 2013)

Penny for your thoughts on Stitch welding the chassis then John! :?:


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

I've got a copy of the Ford Escort works rally preparation manual which runs to a lot of pages but it's all Escort specific and all based on experience. Escorts were used for a very long time in motorsport and plating kits were readily available. I'm sure a lot of the details will be irrelevant as chassis design has improved and the TT is supposed to be quite strong.

It does indeed recommend seam welding a number of areas, not all and where it's done, for it to be discontinuous so as not to propagate a crack.

You have to weigh up how much abuse the car gets, if it's a daily drive and how long you intend to keep it as welding the seams will destroy the anti-corrosion inside box sections, so unless you intend stripping the shell and re-dipping or spending a lot of time spraying wax inside etc, then you will have to accept a shorter road life than standard regarding rust ingress.

What you really need is knowledge of experience on the TT. Rally abuse is probably the worst though. Track use is less stressful so just guessing I'd bet a cage and bolt on bracing may be all you need regarding shell stiffness. There again how far are you pushing the aims?


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## NickG (Aug 15, 2013)

Hmm some food for thought then. I would assume it's an easy enough job to add onto an existing cage to tie into further points?

For now I think the bolt-in will do what I need it to, then maybe in a few years it can come out, be sold on, and a full multi-point welded in in its place.


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## Von Twinzig (Feb 10, 2014)

Nick, before I fitted my harness bar my rear hatch would creak like mad under hard cornering on track, since fitting it's stopped completely. Maybe fit something like mine for now as a halfway house and go full cage later. Just a thought.

VT


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## NickG (Aug 15, 2013)

If you don't mind me asking what was the cost of the harness bar?

I'm only looking to get 1 maybe 2 trackday a in this year then will be caging it over the winter, so it's seeing if it's worthwhile in the mean time really!


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## Von Twinzig (Feb 10, 2014)

£250 fitted. But that was starting from a blank car, so part of it was figuring out what the heck to do.

VT


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## Grahamstt (Jul 22, 2008)

Nick, you might find safety devices could make a rear cage (4 pt) that you can add the front section to when you want
Their pic looks like the roof bars are all one piece but they might be able to mod the build for you.

Just a thought. Graham


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## NickG (Aug 15, 2013)

Thaks VT & Graham for the input... i'm definitely leaning towards the Full 6 point cage i think. We have someone lined up to weld the floor plates, so its not going to be much more then £800 all in. Safety Devices are actually based only an hour or so from me, so i'm sure a visit to their workshop may be an option to discuss at some point, to discuss further bracing etc.


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## Von Twinzig (Feb 10, 2014)

Get them to give you the weight Nick. Carbon steel ones can weigh a tonne. The new Scoobie race car now has a T45, way lighter.

VT


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## 1781cc (Jan 25, 2015)

Von Twinzig said:


> Get them to give you the weight Nick. Carbon steel ones can weigh a tonne. The new Scoobie race car now has a T45, way lighter.
> 
> VT


I have emailed safety devices about the weight of the rear and full bolt in cages, waiting for a response. I went to the weigh bridge today to get a baseline figure for my car as it currently stands, fuel tank was empty except for the reserve (light came on as I drove off the ramp)

1440kg - without driver
1541kg - with me aboard

Seems there is quite a lot to be saved by stripping her out (and maybe dropping about 5-10kg myself  ) as well as getting lighter wheels for unsprung weight reduction, but to offset that saving with the weight of a cage going in will have to be a balancing act.

Surprised how porky these little cars are, my B6 V8 S4 saloon clocked in at 1680kg...


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## Von Twinzig (Feb 10, 2014)

1781cc said:


> Von Twinzig said:
> 
> 
> > Get them to give you the weight Nick. Carbon steel ones can weigh a tonne. The new Scoobie race car now has a T45, way lighter.
> ...


Indeed, they are mostly made of heavy stuff :?

Mine's down to around 1240kg now

VT


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## 1781cc (Jan 25, 2015)

200kg is a great saving, I read in race car engineering that each 100kg saved in a standard road car is equivalent to adding 40hp in usable power in the real world. So your 200kg is equivalent to running 80hp more on a standard TT based on weight alone, mental


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