# Censorship, IMOHO of course



## TTotal

Just a thought, as we have more than a few Forum members with children often looking at what Mum and Dad are doing on here, is there any chance that there can be a coded entry into this Flame room following some recent post that would upset or puzzle young children reading posts.

Furthermore if this forum wishes to increase its circulation and widen the readerhip perhaps the forum may consider whether it is indeed a good thing to continue this section ???

Just a thought.


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## jonah

John !! I would run for cover if i was u  ;D


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## jampott

I'm not going into battle on this one again - suffice to say I think we're all adult enough to "self police".

John, I'd be interested to know which particular thread(s) have got your gander up just recently?

Also, don't confuse the TTOC with this Forum. They are 2 completely separate things. It just happens that the main folk within the TTOC (and possible the majority of its starting members) are from the forum, but as time goes by, this won't be the case.......


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## R6B TT

May have been this one Tim .... it did catch my eye this morning:

kmpowell
TT Moderator
TTOC Members
Too Much Time On My Hands
a few too many......

Â Multistory carpark - Kerbed a Kahn
Â« on: Jun 7th, 2003, 10:13pm Â» Â Report Â Quote Â Modify Â

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
They have decided to make the entrance and exit of the multistory in town thinner by installing small raised kerbs. Went in fine, went had a drink, came back and when driving out i was being SOOOO carefull, but i heard the dreaded scrape noise. Cant really see what the damage is yet because its pissing down with rain and its dark. Â

FUCK WANK C.UNT SHIT BOLLOCKS!!!!!!!! Â

Except that the above was in massive letters!

Which seemed a little unnecessary since it was his driver error! and when I was at School Multistory was spelt Multi-Storey ;D

I don't know .... I guess if you're on the Flame Room, and kids are around, keep the door closed!


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## mike_bailey

> ...when I was at School Multistory weas...


Whoops


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## Guy

Isn't this a flame room? Isn't there a warning that bad language proliferates? 
Just what are you doing entering this section of the Forum when there are kids about?
If you come here - expect it.
I do not often swear in 'real' life and don't do that often here (I'll certainly flame some people at times though) but surely if you are in flame area you must expect things like that? It is what it is for!


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## paulb

Absolutely not...



> Rant and rave about things you want off your chest! WARNING - Bad Language in proliferation!


Quite clear. If Mum and Dad read the flame room with the kids about, it's their own fucking problem.

I don't access the Flame Room from work as I know it rings alarm bells in our IT department.

People need to accept responsibility for their kid's access to the internet and not stop other people's expression if they can't manage it.

Simple really...


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## privatebags

I have to agree with dooliTTle. [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

The choice of language on this forum is starting to get a bit near the mark, and unfortunately this is not only confined to the Flame Room.

On my strolls through this forum I have come across many posts from all sorts of people, some new members, some senior members and some members of the TTOC loosing it and swearing far too easily

Guyâ€™s this forum is read buy both young and old, and itâ€™s not just kids that can get offended.

Contrary to popular belief kids have access to the internet in all manner of places and not just at home, parents can not look at what the kids are looking at on the web at all times.

If you can only think of a swear to use then donâ€™t post, or at least tone down your use of language.


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## paulb

OK, I fully agree with you about other rooms and have been quite vocal in the past. However, the flame room was designed from the start to be somewhere that people could vent and use expressive language if they desired.

The flame room has warnings. If you don't like it, don't click on the link. BUT, keep it in the flame room.


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## TTotal

> I'm not going into battle on this one again - suffice to say I think we're all adult enough to "self police".
> 
> John, I'd be interested to know which particular thread(s) have got your gander up just recently?
> 
> Also, don't confuse the TTOC with this Forum. They are 2 completely separate things. It just happens that the main folk within the TTOC (and possible the majority of its starting members) are from the forum, but as time goes by, this won't be the case.......


Hi Tim,

Confuse the Forum with the TTOC, I didnt did I ?

But as you come to mention it, the connection between thw two is still not clear no matter which committee member you ask ......

I have been involved with forums at work here for years and the main thing that stops and actually puts off new folk from joining is the poor language and smutty stuff.

And BTW this thread is just a talking point and not particularly an issue which bothers me personally. The owners of this forum have a mission...to increase the quantity of users , thereby increasing the advertising revenue income. Thats the hidden agenda here. This is not just a personal chat room for us to mess about on !


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## kmpowell

> This is not just a personal chat room for us to mess about on !


This from the man who has racked up 5283 posts in just 9 months!!!


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## TTotal

Thats right Kevin, not *just* !


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## Guy

> I have been involved with forums at work here for years and the main thing that stops and actually puts off new folk from joining is the poor language and smutty stuff.


Isn't this just the reason why the Flame Area exists? To keep the rude and abusive to one area and allow the 'new', more sensitive folk to roam freely at will in the more refined arena of their choice. 
If you don't like it - don't do it! If you don't like this area of the site then don't come to it.
I do support a policy that will keep 'effing and jeffing' from other areas of the site and would agree with banning such language from there.

If you are worried about kids gaining access to the Flame Room area then presumably you will have some sort of blocking or Net Nanny for other sites, simply apply this to the Flame Room, (and the school playground as well perhaps?).


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## W7 PMC

Correct me if i'm wrong (not an open invitation by the way ;D), but did we not request this Flame Room about 12 months ago?? for the very reason to keep bad language etc. out of the other rooms.

Can some of the others who've been here for some time confirm this or am i going mad?

John, its horses for courses, if i want to say "fuck, piss, shit & wank", plus other select verbage, i come into this room. In the main, the other rooms are clear of bad language & smut.


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## vagman

> This from the man who has racked up 5283 posts in just 9 months!!!


You forgot to type in 'of utter shite' between posts and in.  ;D


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## karloff

Am only a recently graduated newbie, so have limited experince of the forum proper, but the flame room is a great place to vent spleens and generally use the kinda language not permissable elsewhere on the forum. Long may it continue!!!

I totally disagree with the notion that having the flame room compromises the Forum's ability to broaden it's appeal. If anything, the freedom of speech allowed here is very, very refreshing to those of us who have to endure HR people drone on about PC issues whilst at work, e-mail policy etc etc....

And anyone who is going to be offended shouldn't peek anyway. Bit like stepping into a dutch coffee shop and then moaning about being stoned! Tight twats should buy their own!!


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## karloff

> You forgot to type in 'of utter shite' between posts and in.  ;D


Beat me to the punch there Vagman!!


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## Wak

> This from the man who has racked up 5283 posts in just 9 months!!!





> You forgot to type in 'of utter shite' between posts and in.  ;D


LOL! Back to the top!  ;D

Do we need a new hypocritical oath to be signed when joining the forum... ;D ;D I'll IM Jae....


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## Guest

Gentlemen,

A room for swearing ? Ok then guys why dont you make a PORN room for masturbating then.You probably need this too.

I think you really all need to grow up, TTotal is right that this section of the forum gives a bad idea to newbies, but in the main forum I have watched K.Powel and Mr Nuts swearing (but of course they are executives and have their own rules)

Thanks I will check out other forums .


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## karloff

> Gentlemen,
> 
> A room for swearing ? Ok then guys why dont you make a PORN room for masturbating then.You probably need this too.
> 
> Thanks I will check out other forums .


That's an absolutely great idea!! No, make that 2 great ideas!!


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## Guest

So my friend Karloff,

It is true what your friends say then on here !

I didnt think that it was,

But you really are,

A Wanker


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## TTotal

Ha ha ! ROTFLMAO ;D

She's got you in one !


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## karloff

> So my friend Karloff,
> 
> It is true what your friends say then on here !
> 
> I didnt think that it was,
> 
> But you really are,
> 
> A Wanker


Thanks for that!!


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## karloff

> Ha ha ! ROTFLMAO Â ;D
> 
> She's got you in one !


Just wait until the next Guilford & Godalming meet old man!! [smiley=behead.gif]


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## TTotal

Oh sorry mate, its ok for you to rip into me then eh ? :-X

"You forgot to type in 'of utter shite' between posts and in. "

"Beat me to the punch there Vagman!! "

:-[

Oh yes and thanks too Mr Vagman :-/

Mr Powell is the only one fully authorised to mention the Utter Shitte posting and dont forget it !

Cheers Kev [smiley=thumbsup.gif]


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## TTotal

> Gentlemen,
> 
> A room for swearing ? Ok then guys why dont you make a PORN room for masturbating then.You probably need this too.
> 
> I think you really all need to grow up, TTotal is right that this section of the forum gives a bad idea to newbies, but in the main forum I have watched K.Powel and Mr Nuts swearing (but of course they are executives and have their own rules)
> 
> Thanks I will check out other forums .


Class post m'dear !Just great !
:-*


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## karloff

> Class post m'dear !Just great !
> :-*


Thought this was the flame room, not the gushing & fawning room!! :


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## TTotal

Well she sounds nice..anyone know where she comes from ? does she have a TT ? ???

Ps I found her 1st ! ;D


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## pgtt

> Well she sounds nice..anyone know where she comes from ? does she have a TT ? Â ???
> 
> Ps I found her 1st ! Â ;D


your to old for her sTTud :-* ;D


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## TTotal

Hi Rodney !
So how old then ? ??? I guess 35...


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## pgtt

22, grandad...


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## TTotal

Yummy , Perfick ! :


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## garyc

Fucking brats......


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## privatebags

Back to the topic.... ;D

Can I draw all your attention to 2 posts in the "Site news" part of this forum.

Language used on all forums except "flame room"
http://www.********.co.uk/ttforumbbs/YaBB.pl?board=site;action=display;num=1046367739

Acceptable Use Policy - Please Read
http://www.********.co.uk/ttforumbbs/YaBB.pl?board=site;action=display;num=1046165929

If we all abided to what we agreed when we joined this forum, some users would never post again.


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## Wolverine

> Do we need a new hypocritical oath to be signed when joining the forum... ;D ;D I'll IM Jae....


I suggest a _hyper-critica_l oath would be more appropriate  ;D


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## garyc

> I suggest a _hyper-critica_l oath would be more appropriate Â  ;D


I feel that a hypothetical one would work adequately ;D


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## vlastan

> So my friend Karloff,
> 
> It is true what your friends say then on here !
> 
> I didnt think that it was,
> 
> But you really are,
> 
> A Wanker


That's the spirit of the flame room!! Welcome on board! ;D


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## TTotal

Sounds like he/she ?? fits in a treat, some one said its R1 in drag again... ?


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## pgtt

This 'Flame Room'' is going downhill


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## TTotal

Q What's a Greek Urn ?
A About five bob a week! Boom boom !

Eric and Ernie Classic !

Now that' the forum going down hill ! ;D


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## pgtt

> Q What's a Greek Urn ?
> A About five bob a week! Â Boom boom !
> 
> Eric and Ernie Classic !
> 
> Now that' the forum going down hill ! ;D


STFU sailer boy


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## privatebags

> Q What's a Greek Urn ?
> A About five bob a week! Â Boom boom !
> 
> Eric and Ernie Classic !
> 
> Now that' the forum going down hill ! ;D


Now your really starting to show your age.....  ;D


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## Dubcat

> Now your really starting to show your age.....  ;D


and YOU are showing your age by knowing he is showing his age soldier boy!


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## TTotal

??? But Amir, you are showing your age by knowing that he is knowing that I am showing my age. 8)


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## Dubcat

on the contrary - i just took his word for it. :


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## clived

So far as I can tell, no-one seems to really disagree with the idea that in compliance with "the rules" swearing should be kept to the flame room, in order to both make the rest of the forum a family and new-member freindly place, and avoid any work IT acceptable use policy issues - am I right?

If so, the only issue seems to be actually keeping to "the rules" we all agreed to when we signed up, which surely has to be led by example by every non-junior member, the moderators and club executive (as disperate as the club and the forum might be claimed to be).

Thoughts?

Clive


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## nutts

Interesting thread John. 

The does seem to be 1 main thread and sub-thread here though....

Let me take a few moments to throw some MORE light onto the subject of the sub-thread. A few times in this thread alone it has been mentioned that there appears to be some "issue" for want of a better word, in the relationship between this forum and the TTOC. In fact you stated that you can't get a straight answer from any committee member. What is there to know? The ******** (Jae) created a room where the TTOC can announce TTOC related information. The ******** is funded by advertising, etc. The TTOC sees none of this. The TTOC is mainly funded by subscriptions and some magazine advertising. NO MONEY changes hands between the TTOC and the ********. The ******** is used by any TT club or any Audi club in some cases. The ******** is not for the sole use of the TTOC. Can I ask what conflicting information you have received? What problem do you have with this "issue"?

Secondly, the REAL thread here is language misuse....
and for some reason I have been targetted? Yes I admit I lost it on the completely stupid thread in the main forum. I really shouldn't let other peoples stupidity and misuse of that room get to me I guess. BUT and it's a BIG "BUT"! Look back thru my posts and you will NOT find another Major swearword in any post I have made on that forum. So quite why I was singled out for special treatment I'll never know?

The fact that I maybe chairman of the TTOC should NOT be brought into any sort of argument over that one use of that one word. It's NOT like I'm a highly paid chairman of a PLC :-/ I'm an ordinary Joe, who works hard at trying to get the Owners Club off the ground and battles against some people who seem to be bitter and twisted for some VERY strange reason.

The flame room IS a great place and there is a huge amount of humour here MOST of the time. BUT it is possible for young children to search for TT and find themselves here by complete accident.... Maybe the Flame room could be made to be viewable ONLY by registered users of the forum? This might cut down accidental viewing by underage kids?

As for my own kids... if I'm accessing the flame room, then generally I ensure that the kids aren't around, as my 6 year old has an amazing reading/writing ability!!! ;D

All IMHO of course.


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## jampott

Well, when someone gets a roasting for using the word "bollocks" on the main forum, quite frankly I think its amusing.......

Lets not worry about what kids can stumble accross on the internet, else we'd be here all day. Suffice to say, the occasional use of the word "fuck" on this site should be the least of your worries......


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## phil

> So my friend Karloff,
> 
> It is true what your friends say then on here !
> 
> etc..


Hmm. I would have thought that personal insults are much worse than swearing. After all a word's a word. I find bad language used as an attack on somebody quite offensive, such as calling somebody a "twat". yes mr. TTotal you aimed that particular most offensive of comments directly at me at the poole meet. No matter how justified you felt you were, I was, well, angry to say the least. Another time, another place and my reaction might not have been to ignore you. 
As for racism and xenophobia, both of which in true English fashion, have crept up without any comment several times, that offends me immensely. 
But it seems that several people on here want to somehow shield their children from language which happens everywhere in the real world, probably mostly in the primary school playground. I knew most of the foul language I do now when I was 8, and I was brought up in a middle class area at a good school. Are you the sort of people who would say "sugar" if you hurt yourself?
Trying to hide swearing from children is the absolutely worst thing you could do, along with banning them from doing things without justifying it. Telling them why they shouldn't swear would make more sense. 
Keep it to the playground. Long live the flame room 

p.s. does anyone else find it amusing that f*ck or sh!t somehow isn't swearing?


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## jampott

Phil,

Quite 

Nuff Said......


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## garyc

Absofuckinglutely.


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## A3DFU

> Also, don't confuse the TTOC with this Forum. They are 2 completely separate things


If this is the case, then why is the forum user name required (asterisk) when you apply for membership of the TTOC????????


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## nutts

Oh for crying out loud!

We are a FRIENDLY club and some people prefer to be addressed by their nickname or "a" forum name!

For reference, we ask on the paper form for the owners "forum OR nickname" NOT ********, but any user forum name they may have. And on the on-line form we simply ask for the members nickname.

:-/ :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/



> If this is the case, then why is the forum user name required (asterisk) when you apply for membership of the TTOC????????


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## GRANNY

Is it me or is it getting HOT in this Flame Room [smiley=devil.gif] :-[.


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## nutts

At least I didn't swear.... I did nearly say bloomin heck though :-/ But then thought better of it, in case someone get upset...



> Is it me or is it getting HOT in this Flame Room [smiley=devil.gif] :-[.


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## A3DFU

> Oh for crying out loud!
> 
> We are a FRIENDLY club and some people prefer to be addressed by their nickname or "a" forum name!
> 
> For reference, we ask on the paper form for the owners "forum OR nickname" NOT ********, but any user forum name they may have. And on the on-line form we simply ask for the members nickname.
> 
> :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/


Why are you gettining upset, Mark ?
I was merely asking a simple question. Did I hit a nerve ??


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## jonah

A couple of things i have noticed here IMO ;D
The Flame room is supposed to be Moderated Â :-/ IMO there is no moderators moderating Â when they should be :-/
Racist comments not acted on Â :-/, personal attacks on other members not acted on Â :-/

All this room/section does is create friction between members which if it didnt exist nore would the friction.

IMO the forum would be a better place if they just scrapped the FLAME ROOM IMO 
or atleast moderated it :-/

Jonah


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## A3DFU

You may have a point, Jonah [smiley=thumbsup.gif]


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## jampott

> Racist comments not acted on , personal attacks on other members not acted on


well fucking act on them yourself you prick......

what do you want the moderators to do, in a room where (quite plainly) "anything goes"....


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## jonah

> well fucking act on them yourself you prick......
> 
> what do you want the moderators to do, in a room where (quite plainly) "anything goes"....


Just sums it up doesn't it :-/


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## A3DFU

WOW !!!!

I'm soo impressed!!!!!!!!!! :'( :-/ NOT!!!

I agreee with Jonah more and more [smiley=dude.gif]


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## jampott

I'm not asking you to be impressed, this is the fucking FLAME ROOM for fucks sake, or hadn't you noticed?

The "sitting around drinking tea and whining about the youth of today" room is away over there somewhere....

But seriously. Friction is caused when you have groups of people, regardless of whether those groups of people have access to a "Flame Room". Friction happens when people don't necessarily agree with each other, misunderstand each other, or just plain can't be fucking bothered to get the point........

If you find something racist, then report it to a moderator. Use the damn "report post" button. Thats what they put it there for. If they don't act on you reporting it, then I guess its "fromage dure" (as they say in France) - in which case, your whinge is surely at THEM not at the forum in general.

if you think something is a personal attack, don't get so fucking "up yourself" Its probably a general attack aimed at the world in general. If you fit the criteria and happen to take it personally, thats your lookout......


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## A3DFU

??????????? are YOU getting upset now, Tim?????????


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## nutts

"Hit a nerve".... No Dani. Just got a little frustrated 'cos I couldn't find an example in our literature that met your statement :-/

This old cherry has been rearing its' head since Jan.... it would be nice to have this put to bed. Especially when it's factually incorrect.



> Why are you gettining upset, Mark ?
> I was merely asking a simple question. Did I hit a nerve ??


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## jampott

Upset? Not unless they've redefined it in the OED as "airing ones thoughts on the flame room"....

(which they haven't)


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## jonah

Seems to me that you just enjoy getting peoples back up 
I wouuld use the report tab if for one miniute i thought it would make the slightest difference :-/ 
Flame rooms are good to let off steam in dont get wrong but to make personal attacks against other members its not on.
i was just making an observation and you came back with a personal attack against me which IMO was out of order, I didnt mention you personally or indirectly did I :-/


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## jampott

And why the fuck do you keep asking people if they are upset? Are you the forum counsellor or something?


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## nutts

I think we should definitely have a "chill" room.....


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## jampott

> I think we should definitely have a "chill" room.....


A chilli room would be better. PJ can cook it for us


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## jampott

So....

I only have 2 more questions

a) who thinks the forum is going downhill
b) will the FTSE go back under 4000

?


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## pgtt

> So....
> 
> I only have 2 more questions
> 
> a) who thinks the forum is going downhill
> b) will the FTSE go back under 4000
> 
> ?


 ;D :-X


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## A3DFU

Excuse me, Mark.
what is factually incorrect, please???

I was there at the EGM when *you* said that the TTOC and the ******** are two different entities.
In fact you said, they must not be linked!!!

On the TTOC application form it clearly asks for the forum user name (marked with an *; i.e. required information!!)
If the TTOC and the ******** are indeed two different entities, then why is the ******** user name required when I join the TTOC.
Please enlighten me: I'm here to listen and learn.


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## jampott

Dani,

What it seems to boil down to is the presence of a single asterisk which is annoying you so much and causing SO much confusion.

Personally I think the committee should be congratulated for rolling out a BRAND NEW Owners Club for us all to join, Merchandise, Online Group buys, putting time and effort into an Annual Meet (which you were also trying to pull members away from) and sorting out ONLINE PAYMENT / REGISTRATION for these things.

I'm sorry, but to complain about a petty asterisk just seems a trifle silly.

Ok so your own club is probably huge, wonderful and goes swimmingly. Ours is new, and if the asterisk is their only typing error, misprint or misunderstanding so far, then I (for one) take my fucking great big hat off to them all for a job well done.....


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## A3DFU

Sorry, Tim,

nothing is annoying me at all!!!!!!!!! I find all of this quite funny.

And as I said before: I'm merely stating facts!!

I never said that the committee of the NEW TTOC don't do a good job!!!!!!!!

And I haven't got a first clue which would be my own club ????????? I don't run a club

So, where is *your* point, please ???


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## nutts

I've looked at both the printable form and the on-line registration form and can't find the word "********" or an asterisk :-/

Probably why I'm confused :-/

Even if the word "********" was used, so what? It does NOT imply a connection other than a lot of people (not all, but a lot) who will be TTOC members, also use this forum *or other forums*. As I said earlier, we are afriendly club and some owners prefer to be called by their nickname or forum name.......


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## nutts

Just looked at every copy of the printable form and none has an asterisk next to "forum or nickname".... I wonder if Hutters' copies have :-/ So I guess it's not required then......

Still can't find "********" though.....


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## phil

I haven't even looked at the application form. I'm too lazy.


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## jampott

Phil

Me either 

Dani,

Are you or were you not on the Club Audi committee?

Anyway, I don't profess to HAVE a point. This is the flame room - a place for many things, most of which do NOT require a point.....


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## jonah

Hurts me to say it but i do agree with you :-/ bout the only thing we do agree on though :-/
Jonah



> Personally I think the committee should be congratulated for rolling out a BRAND NEW Owners Club for us all to join, Merchandise, Online Group buys, putting time and effort into an Annual Meet


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## jampott

Well if you want to go out of your way to disagree with me on all other matters, thats up to you.

You should know that, as far as Ruffles and myself are concerned, our opinion is indistinguishable from fact - so as long as you understand that where you opinion differs from mine you are in fact *wrong*, then thats fine.......


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## Steve_Mc

> If you find something racist, then report it to a moderator. Use the damn "report post" button.


I did report a post once for racism. Nothing happened, not even a reply to explain why no action was taken.



> If they don't act on you reporting it, then I guess its "fromage dure" (as they say in France) - in which case, your whinge is surely at THEM not at the forum in general.


Disagree. If the mechanisms of the forum don't work beacuse people in positions of repsonsibility can't be arsed to do their job, then the "forum in general" is flawed.

However I do agree with all your other points Tim - long live the flame room. You'd think people might get the picture from the name of this part of the forum.....wouldn't you? :-/ [smiley=devil.gif] [smiley=devil.gif] [smiley=devil.gif]


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## jampott

Steve,

Maybe it is a flaw in the forum in general, because if the general concensus is that the moderators aren't doing their job properly, its up to us to sort that out by demanding action. "Self moderation".....

Its also interesting to see what various people define as racism.......


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## TTotal




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## A3DFU

>


 :'( :'( Give it back, it's mine!!

But it's cute ;D :-*


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## Jae

As a point to those who think we cannot be arsed to do our jobs......this is a site run by individuals who dedicate their OWN time to make sure the site is kept up to a certain standard. Â If you would like to pay us to do this, then yes, you will get a 110% service.

This forum is one of the largest Audi forums in the world, and as such has achieved a great deal from the user base for adhering, in the majority, to the "self moderation" that is provided.

I did recieve the reported post, but felt that the Â comments did not "cross the line". Â I therefore did do my job properly. Â If you choose to disagree with me, then fine, but the request was made to look into it, and I did, and took no action.

By the way, we recieve OVER 20 emails a day from members on the forum, for one thing or another,and we try to look into all of them in due course. Â These requests generally get dealt with the same day, but sometimes other projects do get priority. However, it is just not possible to answer every single request personally.

Jae


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## Jae

BTW, we've just spent 4 hours migrating this site to a new server.......

GUESS IM NOT DOING MY JOB PROPERLY!


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## phil

4 hours?
Slacker


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## Jae

:-[ thirty lashes for me then!


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## imster

Which is the post in question that was supposedly racist?? can you give me a link??

What would happen to a member if the post that he wrote was racist??

I for one would like to see that member kicked out of the forum.


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## head_ed

> :-[ thirty lashes for me then!


Now now Jae punishment not enjoyment!  ;D


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## Steve_Mc

> BTW, we've just spent 4 hours migrating this site to a new server.......
> 
> GUESS IM NOT DOING MY JOB PROPERLY!


I could of sworn my post was directed at the moderation rather than the day to day technical administration of the site. Maybe if I had made my point in capital letters it would have been clearer.



> I did recieve the reported post, but felt that the comments did not "cross the line". I therefore did do my job properly. If you choose to disagree with me, then fine, but the request was made to look into it, and I did, and took no action.


Fair enough, let's just say I do indeed disagree. One man's harmless banter is another man's racial sterotyping :-/


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## jampott

> One man's harmless banter is another man's racial sterotyping


Well thats as maybe, but we stereotype people EVERY SINGLE DAY without even thinking about it. We categorise them according to what car they drive, what colour their hair is, what part of the UK they live in, what their job is, how they speak, what they use to wash their car, what gender they are, which religion they follow....

People THE WORLD OVER are pigeonholed for MANY different reasons. We are all different, and sometimes these differences are used as highlights (or lowlights) as a way to differentiate us from others.

I'm sorry (and I may stand alone here) but the colour of someone's skin, their country of ethnic origin, the language they speak are just "differences" - like someone being blonde, ginger, dark haired etc.

I do not think that, because someone hails from India, China, West Africa etc that they are necessarily a "worse" person to me. They are different. In a number of ways. But this doesn't make me "racist" - simply because the differences aren't being perceived as making them a lesser human being....

What *I* find truly galling these days - its perfectly OK to mock the Welsh, the Germans, the French etc in many different contexts (or at least is appears to be acceptable behaviour) whereas taking the piss out of a black, asian or hispanic person would have everyone screaming "RACIST" before you'd finished your sentence (regardless of whether you were even acting in a racist manner.....)

I'm very sorry, but I don't like all black people. Or all asian people. But quite frankly there are many white people I can't stand either. But Political Correctness states that I can't openly show my thoughts for fear of being labelled "racist" (even when its only personality as the root cause, and nothing whatsoever to to with the colour of the person's skin, their country of origin, their religion or whatever.......)


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## Jae

Steve,

Bearing in mind that moderation is performed by several people, and we ALL decided that action was not needed indicates to me that our decision was a sound one. We have to be impartial towards our decision making, so as to reflect a fair decision, no matter what our individual perceptions are. Also, as the technical source and a moderator (as was Kevin_ST) it is one in the same.

Oh, and using caps......I was pissed off with impression being presented towards myself and all of those spending their time in keeping this forum running...sometimes it seems that the opinion is "you should be doing better!".......and it is not welcomed at all.......sometimes people expect way too much...and this time the line was crossed.

Jae


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## Dubcat

> Political Correctness states that I can't openly show my thoughts for fear of being labelled "racist" (even when its only personality as the root cause, and nothing whatsoever to to with the colour of the person's skin, their country of origin, their religion or whatever.......)


Are you honestly telling me that if you criticise a black or asian person, without making reference to the fact that they are black or asian and criticising them for something that is not related to their race, you think that people will brand you a racist?


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## Jae

it is a sad fact of life that sometimes it does get twisted into that. You only have to look at the press and see some of the ridiculous cases being put to the courts for racism. I don't agree with racism, in any form, but unfortunately it is out there, in various guises.

I believe there is a certain individual who is persuing over 20 cases of racism, against various institutions...and the cases are sooooo thin!

The adage "you wont give me the job because of my skin colour!" to which the response comes "no, I dont think you are able to do the job based upon your skills" turns out to be racist to some people! Its sad, but true.

Jae


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## Guest

The germans and french deserved to be mocked.....

The average Germans dress sense equals that of a walking abomination and the build quality of your average French motor is total crap!  

Also, imagine what would happen if the BBC showed the old comedy series Love Thy Neighbour(each gave as good as the other IMO) or some of Alf Garnets classics(now probably burned)


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## jampott

> Are you honestly telling me that if you criticise a black or asian person, without making reference to the fact that they are black or asian and criticising them for something that is not related to their race, you think that people will brand you a racist?


Yes. I'm afraid so. Its even worse in red-tape / beaurocracy type situations (eg at work) - because people get so fucking uptight about being "PC" about everything that it invariably ends up becoming reverse racisim.

Everyone should be treated equally and faily regardless of skin colour, ethinic origin or religion. But in order to make it look like people are DOING so, invariably they end up going too far the other way. Its this bollocks that gets completely on my tits and it only serves to fuel the ultra-right wing groups who are now able to PROVE that jobs are being given to "foreigners" in preference to their "white" equivalents in an almost amusingly inepty display of "equality".

A lot of our tax money is being spent trying to recruit asians into the police forces, for instance. But if they don't WANT to work in the police force, no amount of tempting will persuade them, surely?! So what is the answer? Pay them more than their caucasian counterparts? Give them some other perks? None of which is ever going to give the equality that people seem to be striving for.....

I just think people should live and let live. Stop all the PC crap, the "helping out", the pandering to various ethnic groups and just let society find its own level.....

(And as a side point, if its OK to mock someone because they are French / German, why is it not OK to mock someone because they are African or Pakinstani? - perhaps we now feel "safe" to mock other "white" groups, and telling jokes about stupid Irishmen, tight Scots, sheep-shagging Welsh, fat Germans, smelly French, useless Yanks are all still considered OK - but jokes which highlight skin colour are a complete no-no. I'm sorry, I just don't get it....)


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## Wolverine

> - but jokes which highlight skin colour are a complete no-no. I'm sorry, I just don't get it....)


This from a Guardian article I think sums up the distinction between rudeness and racism.



> the modern notion of racism has become so devalued, so ubiquitous and broad in its ambit, that much of what, reflexively, we call racism today is simply rudeness - rather than an oppressive social, economic and cultural machine for keeping one or another particular race in a degree of subjugation


http://www.guardian.co.uk/race/story/0,11374,932685,00.html


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## Steve_Mc

@ Jae,



> Bearing in mind that moderation is performed by several people, and we ALL decided that action was not needed indicates to me that our decision was a sound one. We have to be impartial towards our decision making, so as to reflect a fair decision, no matter what our individual perceptions are.


Point taken. I still disagree, but don't wish to make a song and dance about it. Subject closed.



> Oh, and using caps......I was pissed off with impression being presented towards myself and all of those spending their time in keeping this forum running...sometimes it seems that the opinion is "you should be doing better!".......and it is not welcomed at all.......sometimes people expect way too much...and this time the line was crossed.


If you're saying I crossed the line in criticising the moderation then I feel that's sad. Put yourself in my position of having reported a post that upset me, nothing being done about it and not being told why. The logical, if incorrect, conclusion I reached was that the moderation was not working. I also will repeat that I am not criticising your running of the site, which you and the team do very well - I have only mentioning one aspect which I felt was not running as it should. No need for either of us to get upset about this as I feel we have both explained ourselves fully.

@ Jampo

Yes, I agree that we should fight all overly-PC attitudes and opinions. I also get equally frustrated at positive discrimination. However:



> And as a side point, if its OK to mock someone because they are French / German, why is it not OK to mock someone because they are African or Pakinstani?


Have the French and German immigrants in this country suffered decades of social and economic discrimination? Is there currently a political party campaigning in German enclaves of Northern England on an anti-German platform? Do French men get beaten up regularly by the local knuckle-draggers, who've just daubed "Go Home Frogs" on the local French school? If you equate a Welsh sheep joke with a truly racist comment, then I fear your overintellectualised anti-PC views are clouding your sensitivities.


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## GRANNY

Why do you not hear the Chinese crying racist.
When people realise that there are good and bad in all sections.
Wether it be colour , religion , or your job. The colour of a persons skin does not make them better or worse person.


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## ccc

I was stoned by a mob, running after me down a street in Lahore a few years ago, shouting 'White monkey'. However, I don't therefore think all Pakistanis are racist; I do think that racism isn't a white preserve. Something to do with 'birds of a feather...', or fear of the unknown/different, especially when one feels threatened physically, economically or politically.


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## Dubcat

JampoTT - I wrote a long reply to your post but deleted it. Whats the point I asked myself. The only thing we have in common is a TT. Why on earth should I even have this discussion with you I thought.

By the way - It is NOT ok to take the piss out of germans and french. You might think it is - much of society might think it is - but it aint. Shouting paki at someone is the same as shouting frog or kraut at someone. These phrases are all as bad as each other. Having been at the receiving end of such slurs I feel i am a little more qualified than you to decide that paki is a racist insult. Anyone who thinks otherwise is just plain wrong.

CAROLSTT


> Why do you not hear the Chinese crying racist.


What is your point? You do not hear it because their society encourages them to keep quiet. You think we should all grin and bear it?

phoTToniq


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## jampott

> JampoTT - I wrote a long reply to your post but deleted it. Whats the point I asked myself. The only thing we have in common is a TT. Why on earth should I even have this discussion with you I thought.
> 
> By the way - It is NOT ok to take the piss out of germans and french. You might think it is - much of society might think it is - but it aint. Shouting paki at someone is the same as shouting frog or kraut at someone. These phrases are all as bad as each other. Having been at the receiving end of such slurs I feel i am a little more qualified than you to decide that paki is a racist insult. Anyone who thinks otherwise is just plain wrong.


At the risk of stooping to a personal level, are you deliberately being a thick twat or what?

Precisely my point is that the Germans and the French (to name but 2) come under fire on this forum and yet the comments against them ARE treated differently to someone shouting "paki" or whatever (and I use that word as a quote, not as a derogatory term....)

If you actually read the content of my post and didn't immediately disagree with me out of principle (ie because its ME typing the words) you might just stand a chance at grasping my meaning...

Let me spell it out for you. Society tolerates us making "racist" jibes at our white breathren (under the stereotypes listed above) but and DOESN'T see those comments as "racist" - yet as you've quite correctly pointed out, they can be (and are) just as bad as the other "racist" terms you describe......


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## Dubcat

Â Who the fuck are you that I would write my post SPECIFICALLY because it is you writing it? Â Do I know you? Â NO! Â So why be paranoid and claim that I am writing this because its you? Â


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## Wolverine

> Â Who the fuck are you that I would write my post SPECIFICALLY because it is you writing it? Â Do I know you? Â NO! Â So why be paranoid and claim that I am writing this because its you? Â


Because you said you were replying to JampoTT's post!!!



> JampoTT - I wrote a long reply to your post but deleted it. Whats the point I asked myself. The only thing we have in common is a TT. Why on earth should I even have this discussion with you I thought.


I think you need to be less schizophrenic or am I being derogatory to the mentally impaired? ???


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## jampott

> Who the fuck are you that I would write my post SPECIFICALLY because it is you writing it? Do I know you? NO! So why be paranoid and claim that I am writing this because its you?


Erm... because you state that the only thing we have in common is a TT. Ergo (and this was my assumption) we don't share any common opinions and thoughts. Therefore you disagree with everything I say. QED. Even Jonah has to agree with me sometimes, but from your own post, you seem to be saying you always take a contrary stance to whatever I have to say. Either that, or your comment about us only having a TT in common is factually incorrect.

Do you know me? No. So how the fuck can you even begin to imagine what we do or don't have in common. What experiences I have had. Yet you are happy to assume you are more qualified to talk about racisim than I am. I, on the other hand, don't profess to be qualified (to a greater or less extent than yourself or anyone else) - I just state some personal views of my own. Feel free to disagree - its a free country last time I looked - which means my opinions are as valid as yours, even if you believe them to be wrong.....

Take a chill pill, fella. You act like you are the only one to be on the wrong end of any kind of (racial) abuse......

I stand by what my last post said - you wanna try actually reading and digesting the content of a post before immediately disagreeing with it. I know text isn't always the best medium for discussion, but I'm afraid its there is......

If you want to take a pop at someone, go take your racial witch-hunt elsewhere. You are picking on the wrong fella here...... Paranoid? I think you should take a trip to discover your own inner self before dishing that word out to me......


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## jampott

> Who the fuck are you that I would write my post SPECIFICALLY because it is you writing it? Do I know you? NO! So why be paranoid and claim that I am writing this because its you?


And I have to ask.....

"Is dis becuz I is white?"


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## phil

> And I have to ask.....
> 
> "Is dis becuz I is white?"


lol


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## karloff

> Well thats as maybe, but we stereotype people EVERY SINGLE DAY without even thinking about it.
> 
> What *I* find truly galling these days - its perfectly OK to mock the Welsh


Hmmmm. I'm half Welsh, and get loads of stick at work from a few guys. It's nothing bad natured, and I certainly give them plenty of stick back. I don't feel offended, or that I've been racially abused, but, I suppose, in these PC times, it could certainly be construed as such, and if I was of a more sensitive disposition, there might be an issue.


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## garyc

The Welsh, French and Germans are fair game for piss taking. And it IS a two way thang boyos. Lighten up.

Banter. Think banter. No one wants to gas anyone or tie them up with piano wire and beat the soles fo their feet. Yet.

PS My grandparents were Welsh - but they kept it from me for years. I am out of counselling now though and fully qualified to rip the piss.


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## head_ed

> The Welsh, Â French and Germans are fair game for piss taking. Â And it IS a two way thang boyos. Â Lighten up. Â
> 
> Banter. Â Think banter. No one wants to gas anyone or tie them up with piano wire and beat the soles fo their feet. Â Yet.
> 
> PS My grandparents were Welsh - but they kept it from me for years. Â I am out of counselling now though and fully qualified to rip the piss. Â


 ;D

Yes, us Welshies are fair game - but I often wonder why TTR drivers like it so much they move here? Jampott, PJ.. must be the handsome Welsh men!


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## TTotal

Nice to see some action, thanks Jae !


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## phil

> Nice to see some action, thanks Jae !


Sorry to be confrontational, John (but it is the flame room...), but why should you care? You've already left and set up your own TTotalitarian TT forum. (like the pun?)

???


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## imster

ooooh!! low blow bro


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## TTotal

> Sorry to be confrontational, John (but it is the flame room...), but why should you care? You've already left and set up your own TTotalitarian TT forum. (like the pun?)
> 
> ???


Phil you are funny mate, no I havent "left" or are you implying I should ?

I do care about this forum as it was this place that got me into my TT.

I was just commenting that it was nice to see some action , but sad to see that it took us setting up TTQ to push Jae to make these moves. 
If this is the only result of TTQ being started then the team here at TTQ will be happy.

Funny though the main bunch of anti TTQ campaigners are also members of Tyresmoke, Audi Sprt .net and other as sometimes called "competitive" forums.


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## phil

> Phil you are funny mate, no I havent "left" or are you implying I should ?


Quite the opposite, John. I'm just a little disheartened by the whole affair, and personally would like a single source of TT info. 
Earlier on today, I did a trawl around the net to find out how to remove the rear panels in a TTR. Eventually I found the answer right here, and it was a link to Wak-TT.com 
If ********.co.uk were to become a part of TT-quattro.com I'd be happy enough.



> I was just commenting that it was nice to see some action , but sad to see that it took us setting up TTQ to push Jae to make these moves.
> If this is the only result of TTQ being started then the team here at TTQ will be happy.


Fair enough John. So what are your intentions now?

I realise that loads of people use other forums/sites/clubs. What's wrong in my opinion is the fact that several well established people from here, including yourself, want to break away. I understand your reasons, but there's a difference between finding a solution to a problem and finding a way round it....

But no, it wasn't a snide remark.


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