# water meth injection - screenwash budget ghetto build



## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

Okay...

done turbo, done forged engine rebuild (burns a bit of oil when idling - pah!), done intake, done fueling, done cooling, done exhaust.

I am sort of on to the _crystal_ meth injection - but want to try and do this on a budget (cooling-mist entry level kit is about £300+)

I feel like I need to -
1. tap into the screen wash bottle and share this with the water meth injection "Quantum Screenwash"
2. provide a 200 psi pump
3. provide a variable / adjustable pressure switch for the pump
4. provide an atomiser / injector
5. a selection of pipework and fittings
6. create a switchable map - to ensure I dont always depend on the methanol evaporation keeping my engine safe(ish) - (I started reading the documentation for the C187 processors in our ECUs but kept watching TV instead   )

has anyone done this outside of a kit? I am not sure it'll be much cheaper as the pumps are near on 200 quid on their own?

so what about 10bar water pump 12v water pump from AliExpress; about $50 US?

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32705015131.html


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## SinfulDesignCom (Mar 2, 2013)

I looked into this before I did my AEM. Got tempted by the whole meth thing immediately following a visit to Wak...!

The good thing is that you can double up the meth as screenwash, but it gets bloody expensive! And a cheap pump, is just that. It will burn out after 4 hours of use.

The AEM kit I found for a snip under £300 after a bit of Googling, which came with everything and very clear instructions. They also have a great aftersales. So for the extra few quid on top of the ghetto build, you save yourself a hole lot of headache IMO.

But I expect you will find a thread somewhere of someone who has done this already which might be fruitful.. but I'd still err on the side of safety with the pump.


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

This maybe worth considering https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AEM-1-Gallon ... SwGSZeWdGb


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## Amulet banana (Nov 12, 2018)

Yea as written above the pump is the one place you can't cheap out really, you can pick up an AEM pump for £136

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre ... 2405898526

Then whatever else you need for your build, it can be done effectively and cheaply, you'll use an adjustable pressure switch, and you'll need some sort of solenoid by the jet, then the obvious stuff and anything else you might fancy.

Was speaking to a lad not long ago that's done a few home builds, and one of my mates has an S4 with a very effective DIY kit from the previous owner.


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

well I started my commitment with the AEM pump (£135 - thanks  ) - I have this guide here which I will follow - but the parts are pretty expensive, even though it is a cheap do-it-yourself method.

main expenses over the next couple of months will be the solenoid and pressure switch after the pump this month.

http://www.turbomirage.com/water-alcoho ... tions.html <-- quite a web site / just a shame I am coloured blind and scared of starting a fire doing auto-electronics


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## SinfulDesignCom (Mar 2, 2013)

Sorry to go back to the full kit, but for me the module that comes with the AEM makes this so simple. I "stealthed" mine in the slidey compartment in front of the gear lever. But you can tweak it so finely with this bit of kit - plus you can adjust on-the-fly if you want to play a bit more with more mix.

Not sure how "playable" the DIY is, but for the sake of the extra few quid, the tried and tested kit makes a lot of sense to me.


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## benckj (May 23, 2018)

I built my own WI system but started with a basic diesel kit from Coolmist. One of my fail safe components was to use a small fuel surge tank between pump and spray nozzle. This allowed the installation of a low and high adjustable pressure switch. The low set at 50psi brings up a red LED on dash which can also be wired into ECU. High switch turns off pump and was set a 150psi.

With this system I can have a system failure such as pump fail or running out of fluid and still have enough stored energy for 1-3 boost sessions. No protection for a blocked nozzle or broken line.


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

You can buy all the components from the AEM kit.
I'm unsure how I will tell if it is working? I suppose I can put the injector into a tub and log the car to work out how much should have been delivered.

Also, i'm not sure the purpose of the solenoid - I thought the pressure switch started the pump and delivered the water, but now wondering if the pump is running all the time and the solenoid simply opens the gate, or is this to stop constant flow if the pressure switch breaks?


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

You need to find out which nozzle size is best for your set up, the solenoid is a check valve without it fluid will be sucked in under vacuum or when the system is not spraying.


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

Thanks for the details.

Pump arrived with so much weight savings going on, this must weigh 7 kg on its own its massive too, I sort of expected a fuel pump sized thing but I suppose they are only 60psi

Oh and my VAG Commander cable arrived.


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## HOGG (Mar 30, 2018)

Nice

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

As a preventative measure it'll be a good idea to fit a inline filter before the pump, have you decided on mounting point for the pump


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## SinfulDesignCom (Mar 2, 2013)

My kit came with a filter built in to the jet....

and yes, it is a big bastard of a pump!! I put mine in the boot near the n/s tail light. As I got shot of the ballast, it seemed logical to put it there


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

SinfulDesignCom said:


> My kit came with a filter built in to the jet....
> 
> and yes, it is a big bastard of a pump!! I put mine in the boot near the n/s tail light. As I got shot of the ballast, it seemed logical to put it there


You've most prob got a dedicated meth tank, the screenwash bottle that stuart intends on using will have debris in the bottom of unless he removes the bottle to clean it, i switched to using the screenwash bottle myself so put a filter just a precaution.


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## SinfulDesignCom (Mar 2, 2013)

Delta4 said:


> SinfulDesignCom said:
> 
> 
> > My kit came with a filter built in to the jet....
> ...


Good point. And you want to catch that shit before it get to the jet ideally...


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

this is massive - I have no idea where I am fitting it yet.

I bet people move the battery to the boot to make some space, I may be able to fit it on the firewall; anyway I have some time as away this week, then need to get the other project components over a couple of months.

I wonder if it works any way up? like a pencil 

Just about to put on my "MOT" map to try and save fuel running 1 LAMBDA for everything under 90% desired torque and 0% WGDC across the board (so 1 bar) - think I am going to need to get some ear plugs for my wife for the journey too x


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## SinfulDesignCom (Mar 2, 2013)

StuartDB said:


> think I am going to need to get some ear plugs for my wife for the journey too


LOL.... been there my friend.

Might be wrong, but think the pump needs to be mounted nozzles down. I could get the manual out of my paperwork, but with the mountain that is my TT's paperwork, it would be quicker to walk to AEM HQ in the states...


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## desertstorm (Apr 25, 2017)

The solenoid stops water siphoning through when the car is not running. dependent on the location of the tank and the nozzle you can get flow . If the nozzle is in the manifold it will see a vacuum and this will suck the water meth through without the solenoid being there. I wouldn't take the chance of not using a solenoid. People have hydrolocked engines after water meth has siphoned into the system.


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## desertstorm (Apr 25, 2017)

AFAIK the pump can be mounted any way up. Mine is mounted on it's side in the TT, was also mounted on it's side in my A4.


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## SinfulDesignCom (Mar 2, 2013)

desertstorm said:


> AFAIK the pump can be mounted any way up. Mine is mounted on it's side in the TT, was also mounted on it's side in my A4.


Yes, I stand corrected. Just need to make sure that the "flow" isn't above the tank level as it is a "pusher" not a "puller" pump.


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

Hi so have the AEM 200psi pump, and bought an AEM Controller and AEM solenoid being delivered next week so final purchase next month is the injector and pipework. I think I need a 1000cc nozzle, which sounds like a lot.










What I dont understand is the kits dont come with a solenoid?










I assume I should be able to wire in the solenoid with the controller? damn expensive for 20 extra BHP [smiley=bigcry.gif]


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## TT Grant (Apr 24, 2018)

A couple of questions from some one ignorant of the Water / Meth additions...

I'm liking the idea of this add-on...
So, can it be fitted to simply activate on full boost, or does this set-up need some fancy ECU adjustments ?

And I'm guessing it it used for "occasional" use so as not to destroy the engine ?

How much damage would you expect it to do to an engine, & are Head-Gasket failure risks going to increase much ?

IF it is a Plug & Play concept, what gains would there be on a BAM 225 Quattro re extra HP

Apologies if I sound like a Plebb, but I gotta learn some where.
regards to all.


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## SinfulDesignCom (Mar 2, 2013)

WMI will never damage an engine (if installed correctly).

No ECU tweaking required to make it work, but would be benefitial as the timing can be modified to get the best out of it, but better as a switchable map as most are unlikely to run the meth at all times.

The AEM module allows you to switch when the wmi mixture is injected based on the MAF pressure and how much mixture is used. Works very well to get the required output as it can be dialled in to suit the power curve of the car. I have a very linear power curve so I can pretty much dial it in anywhere, but it didn't do much below the 4000rpm mark, so it comes in shortly after the turbo picks up so it injects at peak power for the K03S which is around the 5500-6000rpm mark. On a BAM I expect you would notice more difference through to red line as the K04 does run out of steam at high end like the K03S...


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

@ttgrant it doesn't magically add power it essentially adds octane level and cools the air, to combat knock, so at the moment if my engine sees potential knocking it will pull the timing back (thus no more energy) these protections are built-in and can actually be relaxed a bit which will risk engine health. So instead you can up the fueling to use unburnt fuel to cool the components, but that itself damages cats, sensors, plugs causes black smoke.

Essentially, the warning in the car's documentation about having less power if not using 98 octane fuel is related to this built in timing pull.

You can actually just add water without methanol for improvements, the difficult decision is whether you map the car to take advantage of the water/meth to increase power, or just use it to protect the engine on hot days etc

The kit is actually quite big, so I'm not sure where to fit it all,


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

The biggest part of the kit is the pump, mine sit's in between the battery and headlight and the solenoid to the left of that followed by the injector, it keeps the pipework short


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

Thanks...

Did you make a bracket?

Where did you tap into the screenwash bottle?

Where did you fit the controller?


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

Sorry stuart, it's my cc the behind the headlight the pump is to the left in front of the battery, the pump i wrapped with the rubber mesh stuff that is put under rugs to stop slippage then cable tied it to the battery box after doing all the pipework and checking for leaks, i've used a boost activated switch ( sit's beside the pump ) to control the pump and solenoid plus fitted a main power switch in the glove box, i'm only using it for extra cooling in the summer it's also stopped the knock events that used to flag up when checking for codes.
( i drilled a hole at the top of the SWB )


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## TT Grant (Apr 24, 2018)

once the water / meth is added to the reservoir bottle, will it slowly separate, 
or is there a stirrer in the bottle, 
or does it remain properly mixed indefinitely ?


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

Once mixed it stays mixed in my experience, it's also safer to mix it before storing it.


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

I do love that idea of using underlay to secure it, better than a vibrating bracket.

I thought you could just use quantum. Screen wash rather than mix your own?


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

You can use screenwash the lower the freezing point the better, i got meth for a few quid less than a gallon of quantum, one gallon of meth became three after diluting


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

Do you make your own water?


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

I got some filtered water from a window cleaner, i suppose i could filter water butt rain water and use that.


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

hmmm so looking to buy a nozzle comes with a "check valve" - did I really need to buy a solenoid?


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

A solenoid seems a safer option to me.


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

okay that's great - thanks


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

maybe the check valve is to stop the positive boost pressure going back past the nozzle into the screenwash pump ? weird the solenoid isn't included in their kits.

I also need to revisit the ECU processor to sort out my switchable maps - let's face it I have nothing else to do apart from trimming the dogs hair when I can be arsed (they are so damn matted) and working during the week at home + watching TV


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

The check valve is a cheaper option to a solenoid which itself is a valve, i've noticed that kit is lacking a solenoid no drama as it's easy to buy seperately, have you finished mapping before moving on to creating a meth map ?


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

I'm still weeks away from fitting the meth - what I have found is I get consistently start getting ignition retard at anything passed about 330ftlb from about 3750-4750 then having to drop the load to combat the ignition retard.

this is typical - what ever way I approach it  loads of fuel - slow build etc etc

this is with my toyosports FMIC in the winter so IAT are under 10 degrees C


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

The wmi kit will hopefully help to control or better still stop the knock events from happening.


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## Damob9k (Jan 10, 2018)

The newer "v2" kits don't need the solenoid, says it in my manual:


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

Thanks for that. I'll consider returning / reselling the solenoid, although I did read in the DIY water meth web site that some people don't use a solenoid and instead choose a check valve, I expect its like the fine tuning and simplification as Mercedes did to adapt a cpap for oxygen ( even though you could already buy plastic adapters in the masks)


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

Oh this is annoying..






What is this telling me ?...

There's little difference between the check valve and the solenoid after 35% duty cycle.
?
?
Can the solenoid be fitted too.. But no point if an internal/external check valve also fitted as the check valve will interfere with precision?

Will join the AEM forum over the weekend it is down for maintenance currently.. But I bet any meth/water purist will say a solenoid is the answer as they already have all that extra kit. And I don't have the option of removing external check valve as I only have built in internal check valve? Will still check forum should have bought whole kit as paid 
135 pump
135 controller
90 solenoid
80 nozzle
And whole kit was only 365


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

You already have the solenoid so fit it, the under bonnet pics of waks car you can see a solenoid, i'm sure that if a simple check valve was the better option it would been fitted


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

So a couple of questions.. 

1. I have read the controller instructions and it has a negative feed for the optional solenoid as an output, so where does the positive come from? I am coloured blind so will need my son to number the coloured wires. - but I assume it cannot get it's positive directly from the battery?

2. for the level sensor - is there any point in connecting, as I already have a level sensor on the dashboard?

3. where to locate the controller? it'll hardly ever be touched - I was thinking of putting in the glove box, this will allow the vacuum pipe to be Tee'd from the FPR and be routed over the gearbox and away from the heat from turbo and exhaust etc.

4. is the External LED a special type? as it is supposed to change intensity depending on the pump speed.

5. is it possible to use the screenwash level sensor wiring to interrupt the power to the N75? - Essentially, if the level is low then I want to be on actuator only - eg 1 bar boost - by putting a switch / relay on the N75 wire and use the continuity of the level sensor, an alternative to this is have a switch which will both enable the water / meth and the N75 at the same time - then if low fluid level I will simply make sure the button is off ? -_ I do need to continue with my reading in order of having a brake and throttle map switch._


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## davebowk (Aug 16, 2019)

Solenoid will create less problems as its open or closed, the check valve you are pushing against a spring and ball restriction


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

Yeah but the check valve is integrated into the nozzle, so I still have one...


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## davebowk (Aug 16, 2019)

Double post .


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## davebowk (Aug 16, 2019)

Are new nozzles expensive?


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

Have you a picture of check valve / nozzle holder that you have, you can most probably do something with it instead of buying more parts


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

Don't have the nozzle yet... I don't mind fitting the solenoid along with the integrated check valve... You can definitely take it apart as that was past of the advert...


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## Damob9k (Jan 10, 2018)

Hi Stuart,

The level sensor wire for the AEM acts as a fail safe cut off for the pump, so if the level gets too low it stops the pump from running.
Also re your question about the solenoid trigger wire, this activates at the same time as the pump signal\power so it all syncs fine.

Re your N75 question \ idea, not sure if you're aware but the green wire from the controller is a boost safe output which can connect to the ECU to tell it to switch to a different map (not sure how easy that would be to code into the OEM ME7)
So if there is any type of detected error i.e. the water level is too low, it will inform the ECU.

PS I've not fitted mine yet, trying to tie in doing a few other jobs as well, like a battery relocation to the boot.
I'm planning on putting the pump in the spare wheel well and the tank on the NS rear panel, i'm not keen on the idea of putting the pump in the engine bay, I think it will get too hot.

Cheers
Damian


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

Yeah I've not seen that on nefarious regarding switching maps using an ECU trigger, I did read on a Subaru forum about switching to actuator only with low level.

I really should have bought the full kit, I thought I would be able to do it cheaper just buying the pump, and then some other parts, but once considering all the extra components, but the full kit has the external led and pipework etc with it. The advantage to buy separately was spread over a few months. Though....

My biggest concern is cutting the wires too short.... The controller is well worth the money, as it is progressive.


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

I got one of these ordered today. If we weren't in lock down I would have got my neighbour to get one made for me. But instead, I will give him this to copy and try and get some cash back....

And some extra connectors pipe work and electrical..


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

Have you got a small inline filter to fit in between the screen wash bottle an wm pump to capture whatever is lurking in the swb


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

That's another £40 from AEM isn't it. I'm still pondering buying the tank and fitting in the boot.

I am worried about re-using the level sensor in case there's a voltage somewhere along the circuit from the dash.


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

Here's a couple of pics, one is the filter which cost pence, the other is the tank i use to use i have put it in the boot to give you a idea of it's size, the pump is fitted in the middle, the tank was a tad pricey but it done the job at the time. 
You can fit a seperate level sensor to either tank if you want but as you are always tinkering i don't see it as being needed.


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

Arhh.. So I was looking at fuel filters but assumed the 10 bar pressure might be too much.


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

The hard pipes are pushed in at either end of the silicone pipe that's on the fuel filter, simple but works without any issues.


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

Latest bits... I am at the position now where I have run out of excuses regarding starting to fit it.. Only waiting for 4mm ID vacuum pipe.
I like TV too much nowadays...

I will upload the AEM FILTER and a de-constructed nozzle showing the check valve spring and whatnot.. I am happy with a lightening fast solenoid over the check valve and am actually wondering if I should junk the spring and just rely on solenoid?


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

Filter and deconstructed spring loaded nozzle..


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

Well it is clearly not been a budget ghetto build  

I still need to get a couple of parts.

But I have got my 5 wires down toward the battery in a rubber fuel line
+/- battery
+/- pump
- solenoid

Looped together the level sensor in a bit of boost hose, suitable to be later fixed to a new level sensor.

And the water/meth hard pipe through a grommet in top of screen wash bottle, tested screen and head light washers and no leaks.

Fitted a throttle body flange, but not really sure the nozzle with a hard pipe out the top will actually clear the bonnet?

Still not quite sure of positioning of the pump, the only place it fits inside is next to the air filter. I might be able to tie wrap it to the eyelet.


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

You could always fit the spacer with the nozzle hole on the side to solve that.


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

I was thinking about it but may have a similar challenge.. If you look at Wak's article there's just a small nozzle then back to a solenoid, this is about 10cm.

What I have noticed is the hard pipe actually softens slightly in the engine bay after running car for a bit, so I really want to keep as much of this 'stuff' down the passenger side and front.

The flange I got has o-rings instead of gaskets so I expect I can get the injector onto it and check it out.

Also look for a hard 90 degree bend.


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

Have a look on the cooling mist store under fittings you'll find a solution


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## Damob9k (Jan 10, 2018)

Check out DevilsOwn to, they have a decent selection http://www.methanol-injection.co.uk/index.php?route=common/home


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

Damob9k said:


> Check out DevilsOwn to, they have a decent selection http://www.methanol-injection.co.uk/index.php?route=common/home


DV and CM are the same firm :lol:


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

"thoughts on solenoid fitment"

Hi, So I have the expensive AEM Water / Meth Solenoid this has 2 black wires, doesn't matter which is used - /+ wise
1. Essentially, from the AE controller I have the brown and white (- negative) which will go to one wire
and 
2. The other wire requires is a fused / switched wire!
a. Do I need to run an individual fused wire from the switched bolt under the dash
b. Can I have one wire past my On/OFF switch and then splice off to the controller and fused wire to the solenoid
c. Can I just run a + line from the battery?
b. Can I just splice the + from the pump to the solenoid + ?

Thoughts &#8230;?

Also I bought some extra pipe work for the screen wash to filter but it is OD 6mm, where the AEM pipe is 6.3mm so essentially I have bought a new filter housing adapter to push the 6mm pipe into. it annoyed me - as I tested the 6mm into the injector etc and that goes in deep enough to be tight enough, the filter only has a short insert. but my point is I assume there is no issue getting a slightly smaller feed before the filter and pump?


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

The terminal/fuse box that sits on top of the battery has a spare + terminal in it, add your own wire and inline fuse. i take it that you have had a look at a wiring diagram for the aem controller it's straight forward.


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

No... I just read the instructions, I am already using the spare top battery connector for the AEM controller, but will add this instead of using the switched power feed.

My fear was that this might cause a drain somehow?


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

Tapping the solenoid + into the + that powers the pump is what i would do and have a inline switch to turn the system off if you want to. battery drain should not be an issue but the switch will get around that concern.


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## Damob9k (Jan 10, 2018)

Delta4 said:


> Damob9k said:
> 
> 
> > Check out DevilsOwn to, they have a decent selection http://www.methanol-injection.co.uk/index.php?route=common/home
> ...


Actually Delta4, no they are not !
What you might be trying to say is that the UK distributor is the same guy, but if you look at both web sites, Devils Own has a LOT more spares and wot-not.

Anyway, I was just trying to help a guy out !!
My Bad


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

Actually Delta4, no they are not !
What you might be trying to say is that the UK distributor is the same guy, but if you look at both web sites, Devils Own has a LOT more spares and wot-not.

Anyway, I was just trying to help a guy out !!
My Bad[/quote]

You know what i meant i can't be arsed with splitting hairs, relax i was'nt having a pop at you.


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

If I need to bang your heads together like Mr Mears did in our maths class circa 1982 I will be disappointed 

just chill - we can exercise and sun-bath now - _all this freedom and yet we still have football players from Birmingham going to sex worker parties laid on by Man City players in London digs..._

not only that my dishwasher broke the other day and after hours of washing up - we got a new dishwasher with a cutlery-tray instead of a basket - amazing, shame I couldn't quite afford the extra £100 to have one which opened the door an inch after finishing drying cycle to help "air dry" the plastic...


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

Have you plumbed in the wmi kit yet, that's far more important than a fancy dishwasher


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

I work from home so only really have the weekend, as take dogs out afterwork then make breakfast lunch and dinner at about 9pm !!!!

need a 1/4 bspt x 6mm (ordered) to replace the filter screenwash side as the stock aem pipework is 6.3mm so doesn't hold the pipe securely. Then test with switched power. And tie wrap solenoid to intake pipe.

You know I drag out the last bit... incase it goes wrong and I have to start over


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

well I think my screenwash is leaking aa the alarm was on, but I have it connected up enough to test.


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

It's satisfying when mods work as intended


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

well half way there...

got the glovebox back together removed the inlet plate as the nipple is a different thread.... so I need to get a tapped new hole there... I am going to "sort of" mount the controller under the dash maybe stuck upside down

sorted out the power outlet wiring


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

So my neighbour updated my throttle-body flange to suit the AEM nozzle with a tapered thread, like a brake bleed nipple.










He doesn't drink anymore, so I gave him some Pepsi Max and Vanilla cream sandwich style biscuits.


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

so&#8230; I still am to sort out the leaking screen-wash bottle, so I will do this at the weekend and run it with distilled water on the same map and log this.

I have run it with tap water to check it runs etc and "exercised" the turbo with it on (like 2nd and 3rd gear 2K-4K 2k-5K 2K-6K) - a bit difficult to be sure what is happening?

I did have 1 boost release - but I think it is because my boost is just about 23/24psi and I have a yellow spring rated to 23psi and think that when I get persistent boosting on / off / on / off / on especially in heat, sometimes you lose the boost pressure through the Forge DV 008 - it did it more often with the default spring rated at 15psi - usually off a roundabout, it was like when in Mariocart and someone hi you with a turtle


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

Well sorted my leak out... hopefully anyway...

Lucky escape with the spring clip disappearing over my shoulder.


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

Why did you fit the solenoid before the pump ?


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

Why do you think I did that?

Hard nylon through a grommet in the top of tank
up through the panel
Into aem filter one side modified to 6mm
Into aem pump
Into aem solenoid wrapped under front facia panel
Into aem latest version injector with check valve (modified with 90 degree and 6mm)
Into retaped sandwich plate

The solenoid is about 5 inches from injector.


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

I did'nt think about why you did it but was interested as to why


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

I got an AEM filter as the screen wash tank was pretty minging, and you can clean it easily..

Assuming the tank's not leaking, I'll do a couple of off and on logs with just water tomorrow...


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

Lol.... so I haven't checked my logs.. but my windscreen washer doesn't work.... i can't believe it is a fuse, so I'll do this all again next weekend 

From a quick look at the logs (with just water) the air is dropped a little eg maf g/s

I have it progression from 6psi to 22psi although to be honest that's just from ~2800 to ~3200


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

Is that 2800 on and 3200 off for the wmi.


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

no revs at 2800 is about 6psi and 23psi at about 3200-3400 in 3rd gear that's only a small window to go from 0% to 100% so even though it's 'progressive' in all honesty if you are accelerating it will be at 100%.


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

got ya, you must be nearing the end with regards to mapping.


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## Essex2Visuvesi (Oct 22, 2019)

Reading through this makes for interesting reading.
Seriously considering doing this mod myself but was just going to use the off the shelf AEM system.
Seems to have gone past budget now tho :lol:


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

hmmm yeah - I think I need an alternative map for no Water / Meth. we'll see after I have tried it with meth based screenwash. As essentially all plain water has done is reduced the boost, I think it also has changed the AFR? maybe affecting the boost (as I see this "boost correction") so if I need to increase especially for water meth, then it will be too much without water/meth

you have to remember, that I have quite a conservative map on since before lockdown, I expect I will go down the TDI 4 Bar map sensor and 5120 hack to try and control boost up to 2 bar?

The AEM kit for £395 + solenoid would have worked out cheaper, but they didn't come with a filter of solenoid. (but I suppose you wouldn't need to but a filter unless fitting a water/meth gauge if using the supplied new tank)

cost wise was "about"
£135 pump
£80 new injector / nozzle with 250, 500, 1000
£10 for pipe and fittings (6mm pipe and some 6mm 3/8inch fittings)
(£225)

£40 throttle flange (plus biscuits and cans for a re-thread for the AEM nozzle.
£90 solenoid
£40 filter
(£170)

£395


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

I am pretty sure I forgot to plug back in the windscreen washer pump, when refitting the washer bottle - i definitely knew I undid it when looking for the leak, as I disconnected the battery negative because I was going to have to take it off and didn't want any water shorting it.

Is quantum the only water/meth screen wash you should use? Or can I get any methanol mixture?


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

The lower the freezing temp of the SW the higher the percentage of meth basically, as you are going for a separate map ( meth ) you maybe better off mixing your own or adding meth to the SW.


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

Okay.... so sorted out the power for the screenwash, the connector hadn't clicked.

Did an initial no meth log (still unchanged conservative map) and then drove to shops put in a mixture of -30 and water. Then did several other logs on the way home, pretty much all of these were very similar to no meth and I still get a tiny bit of noise in the igniton retard columns. Although, each run improved probably where the water from previous had moved through the circuit. The AITs easily went down to 30 degrees.

The water / meth is definitely going into the system, the AFRs desired / actual have slightly wavered, although i imagined they would become leaner where instead the mixture is richer, eg desired 0.82 but turning into 0.79

The nozzle size I had in was the 500cc / min and I am sort-of border line on the 1000cc nozzle by AEM guidance, so I am going to try this one today.. if it introduces a cough, I will move the progression up to 30psi so the pump is not on full power. AEM forum said you want to get as much as possibly without introducing a misfire....


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

I think I'm going to try removing the check valve from the nozzle, the 'test' button on the controller works perfectly well but takes a couple of seconds (to blast out) so pump goes solenoid is triggered then blasted out.

I get hardly any benefits, today I set it to start at 4psi and run 100% at 15psi. And yeah no knock registered a run shortly after with meth off showed a little bit and AFR aligned, although boost dropped - i'm also wondering if the sandwich plate being next to the AIT sensor means I'm not cooling the air sufficiently for it to register on the sensor, meaning the AIT is pulling the timing. Still not really bad maxed at 39 degrees today @22psi with ambient 30 degrees and 700 degrees EGT (the decat pipe has improved this). On a normal day AITs usually only go to 30 degrees, in winter under 10.

In going to message AEM to see if I need to mount the pump upside down ( I read somewhere about it needing to be below water but somewhere else I read it could pump up 8ft ( head of water .. or whatever, like pond pumps, but maybe that 8ft is pushing the water and not sucking the water up ) also I may get a flow meter and I'm considering, getting out the #TooFastTooFurious boost gauge and using the external LED lines to light up the boost gauge back-light
One last other potential point is maybe the angle of the pipe in the screenwash tank has kinked the feed pipe and is restricting the water pressure.

So some other test I can carry out is fit a bottle on the pipe pulled from the nozzle, leaving the nozzle and check valve, then have a 7 second 3rd gear run and measure the coolant. If it is 1000cc / minute at 100% duty cycle 15psi boost that'll be about 5 seconds and see how much water / meth there is, it should be about 85ml

And another test will be to not use the screen wash bottle to see if a small bottle fitted above the pump is more effective?


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

Ditch the check valve in the nozzle and it makes no sense to be spraying that early it's a waste of fluid.


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

yeah I reduced it so much to try and get a splutter for too much fluid.

I will remove the check valve


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

You'll most prob induce splutter at 4psi if the fluid flow was increased, not that you want or need to be spraying that early try 10psi and increase the flow of fluid.


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

Low boost starting is to get some evidence it is even going into the throttle body 1st.

I will put a boost gauge on this to make sure the boost is even getting that far, i think the LED is suppossed to illustrate the pressure and actions?

My original setup was 8psi =0% - 25psi =100% but so far there's nothing notable from logs that anything has gone in.. obviously, as the map is pretty borderline it's on the edge of ignition retard. And I have now logged multiple off - on - off - on , they are all pretty similar.

I will report back over the weekend.


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

well I know why it was not working... I put an analogue boost gauge tee'd from the pipe to the AEM controller and there is no pressure, one of the bolts for the glove box was pinching the vacuum pipe between the glove box and bracket.

As previously stated the map I left on for daily is quite conservative and it is quite cold today - but I didn't register anything in the ignition retard columns for my 2 runs with meth on and did get -3 in the run in the middle with meth off.


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

sweet - thanks for your help and encouragement with getting this fitted @delta - it is amazing now it is actually working.

It is pretty amazing first light map change - I have upped the wastegate by 10%, this was about where I was in the Winter with Shell V-Power - I am running BP Super-Unleaded currently so 97 Octane.

Set the Water Meth progressive to start from 8psi and 100% at 18psi with the 1000cc nozzle (I left the check valve in place as it worked perfectly well with the test button)
Analogue Boost goes briefly to 28psi @3800 then drops to [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected]
3rd gear run from 1500 - 6150
0 ignition retard across the board including after changing to 4th and rolling down (this is pretty amazing, I wont try the same map and logged with it switched off as I know it will register -3 ignition retard in at least 2 columns.)
Intake temps go from 20-24 Degrees C (progressively increase)
EGT temps 400 - 695 (progressively increase)
AFRs are stable and meeting my desired.
timing is hovering around 10degree advanced at high-revs.

so my plan is aim for 28psi for a bit longer then taper down to 22 and if that is still stable - start tweaking the timing a touch, especially around the area of the map which reduces the timing when the fuel is being enriched as the original map would only add so much extra fuel if intervention or sensor failure, and as I am adding fuel on purpose I dont need that reaction on high load.

I might revisit the whole map whilst looking at the 5120 hack and switchable-maps,vas I am sort of ignoring the main load limit maps here and simply updating the PID - as I am at about 250% load now and most of the tables max out at 191.

This does feel like a step in the right direction, I was getting tired of just a tiny tweak then roll-back - this feels like a giant leap in the right direction


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

That's good news  the sense of achievement when something falls into place and works is priceless.


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

It really is, we'll see if i have a fire some-time this week  

No..... it's light and day, exactly as you said, instead of trying to tiggle a tiny bit more then getting some knock signals... i expect that will still happen but the bar has moved up maybe 30 horses.


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

Fire :lol: diluted meth is pretty safe, i'm interested to know what the final result is when you get it all dialed in, not bothered about numbers but what it's like to drive.


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

It seems pretty good for my second map adjustment, I am happy with the first half - still quite nervous - I think I am at close to maximum torque with a stock clutch no slipping on any of my runs (but I do realise the 1st sign will make the end of it's life). no point in really showing the boost pressure it is about 28psi reducing to 24psi - I have bought a 4 bar map sensor - looking forward to replace to 2.5 bar map sensor and adjusting the map tables to suit .

Still 0 ignition retard in cylinders 1-4
Still IAT < 24 degrees
Still EGT < 800 degrees

My aim is to hold the ECU Plot registered 350 lb_ft torque (not sure what it really is , although you do have to hang on ) as far as I can so will only adjust the map after that point, then I will try a couple of degrees of timing, I do have a run the other direction but I always get some wheel spin over a couple of bumps. This place I do the runs is great - nice a flat, I do a short run up to 5K first then pull in check to make sure nothing is wild in the log, then if all good do a run to 6K.










full me7logger log

View attachment AET_RR_WMI3.csv


highlights of the log (eg removed some of the columns)

View attachment AET_RR_WMI3_highlights.csv


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

In the process of getting my water/meth injection working I have lost the 1 but very well fitted rs4 centre cap... it really annoyed me getting these on the 1st time, any this particular one never quite sat right... clearly it called time so I need to do it all again...  fake centre caps are a nightmare, too tight to get on then too loose to stay on. Another £5 in the bin..










Lol and my passenger footwell might trigger a few anal classic car folk whilst I am inbetween Street mapping and packing up the tools. :》


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## davebowk (Aug 16, 2019)

The chinese caps fit nice if you just close the steel ring up a bit. I'v just fitted a set on mine.

It seems the water meth injection was well worth doing.


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## Essex2Visuvesi (Oct 22, 2019)

Never mind the footwell... the wonky gearknob would drive me nuts


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

Totally worth getting this setup - it is on top of the other stage 2+ stuff first (obviously, I have no idea what mixture I have ) I will have to try a real mixture next week - this was 2 litres water AND 2 litres -30degree AND 500ml -80 degree, but as I am mapping for WMI, I need to get my head back into the C166 / C167 reference guides to sort out the map switch base program for ME7 BAM/AMK (or get an ignitron ECU?) - I know the basics for overwriting the tables as you cannot store an entire second map, and there is a fear that you may use a memory area required by something else later on, when thinking about this I was going to simply set a maximum wastegate percent with 0, so one single variable can convert the car to actuator pressure only - but I should also sort the fuelling out otherwise you will be paying 21MPG and getting a lot of black smoke - so better off overwriting the fuelling last 3 lines too, and I have an IDA Freeware and uVision5 GUI to work on the Assembler - I was advised (nefmoto) to get a full version of IDA (I think) but at £700 and no personal benefits, I would just buy the ignitron solution instead.

I should really also try and work on an Arduino program to trigger the various events eg start->clutch down + brake + brake - switch map - it is whether the USB to ECU cable I have can do all of that too as I have a spare ECU and this bench flashing cable.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ME7-1-ME7-5- ... 1746570816

exciting stuff - but this is what I will change for tomorrow. As I said earlier I am being a bit backwards and am fine tuning via the waste gate duty cycle - as I have already gone past the load and the axis of the other tables _what would be great is if someone could give me a set of PID tables suitable for a 1.8T K04 with a 1 bar actuator, as it is a far too much for this.._

You can see the path through the table WOT takes, so this is where I slightly adjust - then I will take a glance to make sure my boost is around 28psi - that seems like an awful lot. _I should probably change my DV spring as I only have the 23PSI rated one in  although that has only "been forced open once" the blue green spring would get forced open if I ever tried to accelerate off a roundabout, I only had a problem if boosting in a high gear so it was at 22psi for a long time._


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

Essex2Visuvesi said:


> Never mind the footwell... the wonky gearknob would drive me nuts


yeah - I can straighten it, but it just goes wonky again.. luckily, I have learnt where the gears are now.. just keep trying to put the mazda into reverse when going 70 now


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

so I forgot to put on the WMI yesterday for a run. this is the difference between them on the same MAP test

Without WMI









With WMI


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## Essex2Visuvesi (Oct 22, 2019)

Nice comparissoon, can see that it's doing something poistive


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

street tuning is slow - and each run is still filled with fear - a tiny extension each time - but still clean logs (at least to a beginner like me, I only really focus on fueling (injector duty and AFR), ignition retard, EGT, IAT and timing.


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

slowly, slowly catch the monkey  

Hit my first error - a MAF Sensor Error - It sounds familiar from nefmoto - and occurred when exceeding 250g/s

still 0 across the ignition retard sensors, AFRs good AIT good EGT good

I am actually almost hitting the stop on 30psi from about 3500-4500 tapering down to 24.

latest log, so I can work on from 4750rpm.. this is crazy fun - must be borderline on the stock clutch  










this is my minor adjustment tomorrow --










these are just 1 or 2 percent wastegate adjustment - unfortunately _my fault _ for not removing one of the Turbosmart actuator springs - the 1 bar actuator comes with 2 springs a 10psi and 5 psi springs - a 1 bar actuator is far to stiff for a 1.8T N75 boost controller setup. as the maps are all based on actuator pressure + WGDC - so essentially 95% WGDC is maybe 2.5 to 3 bar hence my exploded 710p - a previously posted.



















I am going to try the next spring up in my Forge DV008, I am probably getting near the time to service it anyway. I have a couple when bought them in a half price forge sale (due to being gold )










This is my best friend


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

You've done well so far with the standard clutch considering how long you have been tweaking that map


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

hmmm - I think I have hit another snag - yesterday, I was obviously running low of screen wash as I was getting some ignition retard here and there some -3s and -4.5, I could still blow bubbles through tube whilst stationary, but the next screen wash squirt showed the low screen wash alarm.

but the other day I get a maf high point reached on 2 logging runs, both when the 250g/s was exceeded, I wonder if a different maf is needed? but my latest map to try and lengthen the torque curve causes an issue, the WGDC is cut to 5% - this must be an intervention of some sort, maybe a prolonger overboost issue as I will only get the issue if I start a WOT from like 1500rpm - I assumed it was a boost leak as that is what it feels like but I actually set the WGDC percent you see in the logs - so I can only assume that something else is intervening? maybe taking too long to react, as if I go half throttle to 2500 and floor it it is okay.

I have rolled it back for some re-assurance everything is still okay


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

well the 250g/s is almost certainly the trigger for the MAF fault - I wonder if I need a bigger MAF - or need to adjust some other figure - it seems too precise 3 runs with more than 250g/s registered display the icon 3 for less RPM do not no lamp.

And.... backing the power down a bit has got rid of the sudden switching to 5% ? I wonder if it is part of the setting to lower power for 10 seconds? but as already over the map sensor limit by then I am not sure how that'll be triggered?

I have decided to start adding some timing now.

I am also considering moving the WMI nozzle into the plastic map sensor pipe, AEM state it should be 6 inches from the throttle and mine is after the throttle plate in the flange I bought from ebay.


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## benckj (May 23, 2018)

Definitely should have WI nozzle upstream of TB. This gives more time for the water to mix with air charge and absorb heat. You might consider installing a 2nd nozzle and leaving current one in place. May have to adjust sizes to suit application but would allow more scope to increase spray.


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

Yeah, I'm thinking of using the 250cc nozzle into the hard plastic as a direct nozzle as is, after the solenoid; and leave the 1000cc nozzle in the flange, i already have a pre-pump AEM filter, my temps are usually around 25c or less.

I need to fit and map the 4 bar map sensor there already and may as well consider a cold side DV at the same time.

I think i need to consider wiring the n75 to the same push button for the WMI. I have already forgotten to switch it on twice. The pump has a buzz, which you can actually switch off... but i don't want to do that.

I obviously still have plans for a multi-map, even if the default is as simple as codeword 8 and a fixed ldrapp wastegate for 18 psi (10% wgdc)

I think i have sorted out the MAF error there's a MAP designed to highlight if the wastegate actuator pipe has a leak or similar which has a limit setting in kg/ph with axis of rpm versus pedal position. 900kg/hr is 250g/s so I have upped the 50% and 100% rows by 10% and will check. There is also a scalar MLMAX but that has been deprecated as far as I can tell.. just a bit weird it's only been when exceeding 250.


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

Does the pump run all the time after you have switched it on ?


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

No i don't think the pump is running. I think the controller puts out a buzz so you know its armed. It is self-diagnosis, which I think you can turn off by holding test whilst arming. Considering I know its working and I haven't connected the failsafe connector anywhere, or the level (just connected the level to itself)

https://www.aemelectronics.com/forum/green-led-0 about 3 comments down show the switching for self diagnosis on / off


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

You don't need to switch it off in that case barring the winter months maybe.


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

So still working on this on about my 20th iteration. introduced a bit of ignition retard (-3 in cylinder 3) from about 5K RPM, interestingly only after I put in 3/4 tank of Tesco momentum, my TT and S3 never seemed as good with Tesco Momentum compared to shell v-power, but I was just using BP Ultimate 97 previously, I will try that again after this tank and then Shell V-Power.

Because of the 1 bar actuator 2% more makes a big difference so I am still only manipulating the PID - the actual normal drivability is quite good. I do need to slightly avoid only 3/4 throttle as that is 100% throttle plate but some of these maps use pedal position. 
I am sure a proper mapper would just junk all this and start again, but I would be interested in what they do to the PID tables - because there is no way a stock PID will be of any use with a 1 bar actuator.

it is slow going but I have just touched over 260g/s - I need to aim for 270g/s next  










View attachment AET_RR_WMI10_t3.csv


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

hmmm well I certainly have found a limit, but I'm not skillful enough to work it out, I seem to be struggling to get over about 260g/s. I still have plenty of waste gate duty cycle as am only at 57% but its not really changed since 52% and 57% is on the 30psi boost gauge stop at 5500rpm.

This is now 85% injector duty cycle @ 0.80 lambda which is actually a touch lower.after WMI. Still either clean on ignition retard or a touch of -3 on cylinder 3.

I saw an old @wak post with some details about a sporty s2000 filter running at 400+ bhp as I am wondering if the Proram nanofibre air filter was at capacity; but it seems difficult to find any maximum g/s on any filters. There's not a lot of space there now anyway.

In going to try out my old Cosworth S2000 filter just for a like for like test. Then I may just agree that it's as good as it is. I should be able to lean the mixture slightly maybe 0.85 instead of 0.80 and have another visit to the timing. 
Then sort out the relocation of the WMI nozzle to pre throttle, and 4 bar map sensor and 5120 hack.

Then we'll see, maybe in 6 months get an ignitron ecu and 630cc injectors?


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

Maybe try boxing in the air filter or improving the air flow to the filter, is it time for you to have the thing dyno'd to see what's going on.


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

You are probably right, but no point in going to a dyno until I have finished my modifications.
- moving 1000cc nozzle in between map sensor and throttle plate
- fitted new map sensor and made the table adjustments 
- sorted out the correct water/meth mixture (I didn't actually know you should only add blue screen-wash?, mine is red(ish) read watermeth 101 yesterday.)

there's no notable difference between S2000 v PRORAM filter runs (same day an hour apart)

the injectors were virtually maxed out on the S2000 run because it had added some fuel due to -5 ignition retard. 
Bosch 550s are only good for 350 max in any case - so probably need to forget about improving much more until 630 injectors


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

I find that a cone filter with out without a heat shield has a negative effect on low/midrange torque the latest home made enclosure made a night and day difference without making a racket :lol: ,
some screen washes can turn to gel and block stuff up, just buy some meth and dilute it yourself or better still ready mixed it takes the guess work out of it, you'll still be tuning this time next year


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

yeah, the thing is it's a hobby, so if I'm not tweaking etc - it'll be new parts  I dont use the car for anything apart from logging runs and going to Tesco's to pick up beer and what-not.. what do you do with yours? I am using it tomorrow to go to Felixstowe which is about 110 miles away, I only just took the tools out - but will have to take a handful (just in case) I should really clean it for a funeral? maybe late night wash after Soccer and F1?

I have always had a heat shield since getting a cone filter. Although, I like Badger5's new heat shield they open up the side.










new heat shield, if you click on the link the second picture shows the extra space for air.

https://badger5.co.uk/induction/induction-heat-shieldv2










If it breaks, I will start again  - I sort of wish I got a B5 S4 originally now..

I do actually think it is probably time for a service, especially copper plugs and oil filter.

I do need some new RS4 wheel centre caps as I lost one, and I know full well if I buy another individual one it wont match.


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

The enclosure i have currently is sorta like your heat shield but with a lid on it, i only use my car for long road trips/days out and early morning sunday drives at this time of year, i was out at six this morning enjoying the lanes


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## TTdigaz (Apr 11, 2020)

I remember years ago we did a budget 5th injector for a laugh using an oil switch on the manifold, :lol:


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

Are yes the free water cooled early morning mist air...  
I'm surprised someone thought about adding water 

It's interesting when I was reading some of the WMI stuff, they put it in the turbo charged aircraft during the war as the air was too thin, so they injected water / meth to get higher and save the gasoline.

I am going to have to sort out the mazda due an MOT, so that will be my focus soon enough, and I am supposed to be getting my daughters 2009 pd130 golf, so have eyed up a 700 quid turbo upgrade


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

my old 1990 530i had 7 injectors 1 ran when cold. Its got to be a simple solution to give more fuel, don't change loads of maps just include the extra injector until its hot enough. Someone on ASN doubled up injectors on their S3. I can't remember who it was... but it has to raise the question what is the maximum injector size for a 5bar fuel pump and a 3bar fpr?


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

It's a interesting story re how wmi came about and why


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

So removed the post throttle body sandwich plate and relocated after hard pipe.

I have had a couple of runs with no knocking noise. But I don't seem to be getting as much power, this may be related to moving the position, and maybe there's too much Water / Meth which has a bigger impact if earlier.










I sort of wished I had got a couple of these nozzle holders as I have replaced two pushfit ends with an elbow.










People say just get a pipe fitting, but the inside thread of the AEM nozzle is proprietary, it's to stop people buying one nozzle, with 3 different sizes then just using all three connected to a random pipe fitting.

Empted the catch can too as that was full, I think it makes the warm starts smokey. It wasn't full of mayo but essentially watery oil.


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

The lower power figure is most probably due to the ambient temp at the moment, even the juice that's sprayed will be warm.


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

Maybe, although it felt more like choked... i cannot run any logs or update at the moment, as a few

```

```
 weeks ago i accidentally stood on my laptop.. luckily it is okay apart from an interesting issue the battery charge isn't known and was originally stuck on 71% plugged in or not. I know it takes a couple of hours to charge and lasts for 3 and a half hours. But it is sort of random on what the charge percent might be and if it is less than 5% it was just hibinating after power up until I changed the power policy rules. But it has been stuck on 0% for a few days now and at 0% it won't let you power on the laptop without an adapter plugged in.

Bought a new one, and i have my old original one with poor cells and this one with good cells but broken controller so I might take them apart...

I am a big fan of putting batteries in the freezer. My original HP one lasted an additional 2 years after freezing it, before the battery only listed about 20 minutes. It sounds crazy and I know it doesn't always work but it did for that one.


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

As you mentioned, to much juice causing the choking :?: i don't know, you'll find out when you are able to data log again


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

well moving the pipe and using Quantum -15 straight out the 5litre bottle, it definitely has made a difference in performance map for map - so I have turned it up a little bit more.

I think it is about 30c ambient temp today, I think AIT ranging from 27c to 33c is pretty good with ambient 30 degrees

so the log looks clean max EGT 700 max AIT 33.7c max no ignition retard. I have the progressive water/meth controller starting 10psi and running at 100% duty cycle at 30psi boost.. I am sure this is too much, I reckon it is over 300% Load S4Wiki reckons never exceed 191%

when I start to run out of screenwash I will mix in a 500ml bottle of -80 methanol with 5 litres of -15. I wonder whether the atomising before throttle body is cooling better. but will try with a bit more methanol to add some octane equivalence for advancing the timing.

still mulling over ignitron ECU - versus IDO PRO Licenced version (or maybe a second hand copy )


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

so after losing a few jubilee clips after my new 
s-bend from map sensor to inlet manifold with a hard pipe, keeps blowing off at about 30 psi got too much for me. I decided to buy another forge product.

The reason the pipe has been popping off is because the map sensor pipe is only 61mm at the inlet manifold end, so damn difficult to hold on tight, it also ripped apart some of my AEM pipework, so it's one of those impossible to find reducers of 63mm to 61mm. So my choices were buy a map sensor pipe which is 63mm I could find lots for about 20 quid but they were not very long, meaning I would need to get a new 90 degree silicon as I have trimmed my 90 degrees to the right length.

Not sure what sealant I should use for the map sensor adapter? I'm thinking about using the same sealant used for the sump? I will check with forge i suppose.


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

Sump sealant will work, are you fitting the wmi nozzle to this new pipe ?


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

No, I have the WMI nozzle fitted in a hard pipe in between two silicon 90 degree's from the MAP Sensor pipe to the inlet Manifold, that's why I was having a problem as the stock Map Sensor pipe isn't 63mm on both ends and my Silicon 90 degree are 63 ID.


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

Haha.... absolutely no chance... i am going to have to relocate my battery to the boot in order to fit this map sensor pipe.


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

JesusChrist what a JoeyD, had a logged short run at 28psi showing ignition retard.. checked the car...

Joey acon Joey bcon..

Yes that is suckling air and pumping it into the screen wash. After refitting the other night.


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

:lol: :lol:


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

Yeah... shameful...


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

Easily done if not paying attention, have you made any progress with mapping.


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

I got as far as 30psi (which was a little unstable eg a good run, then for no apparent reason not), but blowing that lower pipe off the map sensor pipe, because it is smaller like only 60mm instead of 63mm, and the last time it blew off ripped the push in 90 degree off the AEM solenoid. I tried to fit the 63mm forge map sensor pipe.. absolutely no chance too big to fit under the headlight and battery. But when the sensor pipe was off, I got the jubilee clips on properly tight and straight. 
I will look to relocate the battery in the boot, and then at least fit the water/meth pump and use the space for the forge map sensor pipe and 4 bar map sensor. It had a brief run yesterday without my laptop, just to make sure the pipe held, but the boost went off the scale... it reminded me of a 'quantum leap' episode when he added entinox to an old biddy car to win a race  

I think 30psi is too much.
I would say, with water/meth I can get another 10% i am sort of around 260g/s without any ignitron retard, the quantum -15 is better than the Halford -30 and a bottle of -80 chucked in.. and i have set the progressive to start at 10psi and run at 100% at 30 psi. I really do think there's only so much it can manage.  still tempted to get an ignitron ECU. Bit of a waiting list... i think...

Pretty busy at work so rather distracted the last couple of weeks..


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

Have a look at mikalor hose clamps, jubilee clamps are good up to a point even then they slacken off, or just fail to cope


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

If they are the 10mm nylon nut, I have used a few before I think the general complaints are they are too wide so cannot pinch as tight, also the ones I have are too wide to pinch between the bump and the hose stop on the map sensor hard pipe...i think it will be okay for the time being, I reckon the boost went so high the other day because there was no water meth, so it was bogging down due to the ignition retard values, so nowhere for the air to go.


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

High boost due to no meth na i can't see that being the case.


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

It's this fricken 1 bar actuator which is the nightmare, 58% duty cycle is 35 psi


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

So 12 months and about 5k miles, what are these plugs telling me?










1 and 3 are a bit black and minging,

They are BKR7E copper, so usually only 6 months.

I am surprised the car even ran like that, I have at least got a decent plug gap adjuster; instead of tapping them on a hammer.

I am dreading a compression test, followed by a leak-down test... but, I think it's getting near the time, as it is due a new clutch in the next year and I may as well

It's burning a bit of oil ('plume' of smoke on hot restart) hopefully a valve seal, they do need a bit of experience to press on the right amount. I still have quite a lot of erling seals left from the head rebuild, I have the tool to press them on, but it you press too hard the spring breaks and not hard enough it rides up the valve stem.


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

You have some investigating to do clearly something is'nt right.


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

yeah that'll be winter taken care of  

new plugs and oil make for some improvements - I am peaking just past 30psi at 3500 dropping to about 24psi come 6000 rpm.. you can see a drop off, I actually have quite good timing > 10 degree's @ 6000rpm (never would have been possible before WMI)
I would love to know the tricks experts have, I look at some of Bills dyno's (for the uprated VT262E though) and he manages a stable 12.2 AFR and straight 26psi to create 360bhp with nothing else major. I know from the nefmoto forums that you sort of want to have less to start with to give you more later eg 330ft/lb in a straight line to 6000 will give you 375bhp? ish where I am trying to go big early (before any knocking  ) but then I cannot keep hold of it, and will try and keep the 30psi a bit longer from here - but then that invites some ignition timing retard.. = lost timing



















View attachment AET_RR_WMI29c.csv


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

This mapping malarkey is a dark art to me but from what i gather, ( zero knowledge ) can you not tune it so that the full beans/boost comes on a tad later so that it tails off higher up the rev range, does that require actuator adjustment ?


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

no physical adjustment to the actuator is necessary, I have plenty of control over the actuator (up or down) - it will open at about 1 bar of pressure (as it has 2 TurboSmart springs in (1x10psi + 1x5psi) - I still don't under stand how that equals 15psi but that is science I suppose   eg if I had 15 1psi springs would that also be 15psi?) - if I remove the turbo again, I will remove the 5 psi spring - it cannot be done in situ, at least I dont think I will be able to, eg I can undo it and remove the spring, but I bet I am too weak to push it back together laying on top of the engine, reaching down with my glasses either steaming up or falling off .

What I have "sort of" discovered is whatever way I approach this (and I have re-tried multiple times is I get to about 260g/s then struggle, I have tried 2 different filters a Cosworth s2000 and the Proram nanofibre and I cannot believe they are both limited to be identical.

and the MAF isn't limited to 260g/s - so what I was finding is after 5500rpm if I turn the boost up it is less effective eg 5psi (24psi to 29psi) is not 5g/s and can actually be detrimental.

I will do a log tomorrow (as a test) with a lower boost until 4500rpm say 24psi and see what happens if I raise it to 30psi at 6000rpm (difficult to prove as the log will be maxed so you'll need to trust my eyes   ) and there is only a few settings so I can say 60% at 5000 and 63% at 5500rpm eg I dont get 100rpm granularity

but the only time I ever drive to 6000rpm is when I am doing a log, I like driving from 3 to 5 it's above the drone but not thrashing the engine - when I rode Motorbikes I had a 600 bandit and after a couple of years wanted a bit more low down torque so got a legendary GSX1100F which had a shed load of low down torque instead of changing gear and high revving all day long, I should have got a B12 but I didn't have any camo protective clothing.


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

The brick walling maybe due what's going on in the engine ref 1&3 sparkplugs ?


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

Yeah maybe.. although I am only a handful away from 'the max' it is a wall though...

We'll see... I have created a 'delta4' profile, going from 40 to 60 wgdc (instead of 55 --> 51 --> 54 ) and limiting the lambda to 0.84 (instead of 0.81) at WOT 6K.

So essentially
1. if the torque is stable / continuing to rise with a more traditional graphed hp/torque/maf_gs

Thanks - you're the boss!!!

OR

2. If the engine disintegrates - that's all you buddy


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

Don't blame me if it blows up :lol:, i'm still figuring out how this science works [smiley=book2.gif]


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

so this is a chart illustrating the different WGDC for two different maps (and I upped the AFR a little as 0.85 is usually deemed best for power)

but you can see an identical profile for drop-off at 5500 - in the delta 40-60 map regarding WGDC I started at 40% which is 24psi on my car at about 3500 and it increased to about 29psi (those are the dashed lines) on mine which is about 50%- 55% WGDC that is about 30psi at 3500 and drops down to about 24psi at 6000. both runs get to about 260g/s then stop increasing.

I am going to give it another run on my previous map, with a little more timing (up by 0.5 degrees across the range) and a little less fuel (from lambda 0.81 to 0.85) on higher revs and hold the 30-28psi for a bit longer.


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

Interesting stuff, what's your aim i by that i mean has this set got any more to give and can you get more from it, the car is not lacking in poke is it, can you try something for the sake of testing, put a lid on the heat shield to see if it makes any difference.


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

so my current aim, is to work out what is stopping the increase in air and fuel consumption, it is definitely not the turbo capability the fact that 24PSI or 30PSI @ 6000 rpm is always ~260-263g/s surely points to something else stopping it.
it is 85% injector duty-cycle
it is 25 degrees centigrade Air Intake Temperature - even before WMI the FMIC usually kept it below 32 degrees centigrade
tried 2 air different air filters
tried more fuel 0.81 / less fuel 0.85
have 3 inch turbo-back exhaust with no sports cat currently

I know it is blowing a bit of smoke after a hot run on a restart or if left idling on driveway for 15 minutes. but I feel that if the engine health was a major issue the performance would be a little more sporadic?

I do recall Bill talking about an S3 which simply wouldn't go more than 320bhp which looked in all intentions that it was healthy, but turned out to have a crack in the head.

I suppose I may have not ported the Chinafold well enough, I did not port it for a AET hybrid, but instead for a stock turbo with a turbo-rebuilds hybrid CHRA, there is quite a difference on the Hotside opening, but as I said.... I am no expert so identifying an exact flow restriction is not in my skills.. maybe that is the issue and I settle for that ?


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

I suppose I may have not ported the Chinafold well enough, I did not port it for a AET hybrid, but instead for a stock turbo with a turbo-rebuilds hybrid CHRA, there is quite a difference on the Hotside opening, but as I said.... I am no expert so identifying an exact flow restriction is not in my skills.. maybe that is the issue and I settle for that ?[/quote]

I reckon that the reason for the brick wall is ^^^ this, is there any point in further mapping until you sorted the restriction
you don't need to be an expert when you already know what you need to do, if your going to pull the head off for the stem seals add this job to the list.


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

Yeah, I cannot think it is anything else. All I will do mapping wise is roll back the boost, keeping the same profile. There's no point in trying to push more air than it can take.


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## Jamie948 (Dec 8, 2007)

What's your compression like?

Mine's shot which is why my power is dropping off at circa 5k

New engine for me :twisted:


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

Yeah I need to check this and leak down.

The thing is - I gapped my own rings, and gave a bigger gap blinded by some Americans saying gap them bigger for more power...

And I am not sure I'm losing power it is more like I am unable to get more after hitting 260(ish) g/s

If I had a map which slowly increased to 255g/s at 6500rpm it would not appear to lose any actual energy. The fact i seem to hit this air gulping max makes the torque line drop. I reckon I could get to this roadblock a bit earlier. Its all about the flow innit
.. 

I can already envisage that assuming I resolve my oil usage, I will move to a big turbo. But I just don't have the motivation, really need to do some housework DIY and gardening. But I just watch andromeda


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

lol so dropped the map a touch and low and behold the driver side boost hose blew off behind the headlight, so bumper needs to be moved a bit to get the headlight out - couldn't be bothered this afternoon 

I was sure there was a way to just about get the light out the way enough, but that headlight was already been repaired so I will be better off just loosening it a touch.

What I need to do is make the top boost hose the easiest one to blow off instead , I am tempted to put the yellow spring back in the Forge 008 but that was blowing open at 30psi.


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