# DEFCON mod - Awesome!!!!



## Wak (May 6, 2002)

I recently went to war..... 
well thats how it sounds on Steve Schwings website! :roll:

I've had the pre-ESP, pre-spoilsports, pre-dumbing down, early wishbone emulators added.

Basically Audi made the car handle really well, then a few people driving beyond their capabilities crashed and so they dumbed it all down with mushy peas for bushes, a spoiler which we all love and a computer to really hold you back when you want to go on and on!

Here's some notes
http://www.wak-tt.com/mods/defcon/defcon.htm

this is the difference...









In the USA where they dont build cars to go round bends and mainly dont have bends a strange thing has happened, Mike Phillips has come up with a mod to help make the TT more responsive to direction changes, add oversteer and basically straighten any bend.
You can get them from Steve Schwings website http://www.modshack.info/defcon.htm










I'vd been having great fun with this in controlled 4 wheel drifts in the wet and the car is just so balanced now, its an excellent mod.

I have haldex, R32 bars and this has added a big big difference, it should offer the similar improvements no matter your current setup.

I went for DEFCON 4 and the bolt kit









These really improve the handling and steering, changes in direction are more positive on the motorway, the front just turns in a more positive way and is strong during a turn when the original bushes would have some give, these are firm and direction held.

It gives a driving on rails feeling, recommend this mod.

www.amdtechnik.com fitted mine for me, its quite hard to install unless you have a press to push the collars in.


----------



## Rhod_TT (May 7, 2002)

How many Â£ Wak?

Since I need new front wishbones anyway (well the other bushes are split, but wishbones and the time taken to press the bushes out are much the same price)


----------



## JayGemson (Jun 8, 2004)

Read about this on AudiWorld a while back when only one or two users had tried it. They gave some excellent feedback about how much more responsive and fun their TT became post DEFCON (love the name by the way!).

One guy did report however that his TT had become a pain to keep in a straight line which made it cumbersome on the motorway. Can you report on this Wak?


----------



## Wak (May 6, 2002)

JayGemson said:


> Read about this on AudiWorld a while back when only one or two users had tried it. They gave some excellent feedback about how much more responsive and fun their TT became post DEFCON (love the name by the way!).
> 
> One guy did report however that his TT had become a pain to keep in a straight line which made it cumbersome on the motorway. Can you report on this Wak?


It was about Â£90 I think cant remember because of the $ rate.

There's always one! Jay :roll:

but it is a more positive change and maybe if you spend life in the slow lane the ruts left by trucks would be annoying, but I am running 19" 35 profile tyres and drive motorways every day. (fast lane only)

I cant say I noticed anything to make me feel its worse, The steering feels tight whereas it was loose before. you dont notice it because you are used to the oem feel, after the bushes are done you realise how different it was before.


----------



## MCPaudiTT (Jan 17, 2007)

Wak,

SO pleased to see this review of the parts. I have received nothing but positive reviews so far.

As for straight line stability - that is a matter of alignment. If you have Zero toe, you will have tracking issues - whether you have installed DEFCONs or not. You should align the car with very slight toe out. I personally have not had any high speed tracking issues, including time on track (see below).

Now, as for only having straight roads, think again! I live on the edge of the Santa Monica mountains, here is one of my "testbed" drives (and videos really slow down the sensation/feeling in the turns)!

http://video.google.com/url?vidurl=http ... KXSGipv4LQ

Here is one of my favorite videos, from my track day at Willow Springs International Raceway:

http://straightfocus.com/TT/MCPaudiTT/W ... otuses.avi

Also, if anyone is interested, these bushes also fit R32's...


----------



## Speed Racer (May 21, 2006)

Was going to replace my bushings with Power Flex polyurethane until a highly reliable TT tuner in the US told me of excess wear in the lower control arms after short use, and gave a strong push for the DEFCON kit.

For this round (real first mod as I don't count the BBS wheels), DEFCON 4 w/bolts and KW Variant 3 coilovers. I've also been given a strong recommendation to go with the H&R 21mm ARB, but I will wait on that to see how the other bits change the driving characteristics (and to keep the wife happy if I can stay under $2000 including install and realignment). I've got my fingers crossed that I won't need adjustable tie bars as I only plan to drop the car exactly 25mm from standard. After I let the suspension settle I guess I'll find that out... Plan is to have everything ready for a early Feb install.


----------



## CamV6 (Oct 26, 2003)

Is that the Mike Phillips of Meguairs and Show Car Garage fame?


----------



## MCPaudiTT (Jan 17, 2007)

CamV6 said:


> Is that the Mike Phillips of Meguairs and Show Car Garage fame?


Hmmm... Not as far as I know. Maybe I am a really talented sleep-walker, though!


----------



## MCPaudiTT (Jan 17, 2007)

Speed Racer said:


> For this round,... DEFCON 4 w/bolts.


I would highly recommend DEFCON 2 or 1+ rather than 4... More than likely your rear bush is split, and 4 doesn't give you a new pair...


----------



## CamV6 (Oct 26, 2003)

MCPaudiTT said:


> I would highly recommend DEFCON 2 or 1+ rather than 4... More than likely your rear bush is split, and 4 doesn't give you a new pair...


Interesting. Looking at the Modshack site and Defcon listings I'd have thought Defcon 3 was a good option for folk who want to go back to Mk1 version since its listed as being the 'original' set-up without stiffening things up too much. I'm genuinely not not questioning your recommendation at all, just wondering what your view is on the Defcon 3, and whether you think it might be suitable for me on my V6?

many thanks, Cam

BTW, you have the same name as a v.well known and respected detailing 'Guru' in the USA who is also a really nice chap and is on various (detailing) forums.


----------



## Rhod_TT (May 7, 2002)

What about finding some original Mk1 wishbones? Is that almost an impossible task?


----------



## Silversea (Jun 18, 2002)

Would the S3 not have the smaller bushed wishbone? As far as I know, the S3 was never recalled and had the same parts as the early TT's, bearing in mind the US never had the S3 supplied officially. :roll:


----------



## MCPaudiTT (Jan 17, 2007)

CamV6 said:


> MCPaudiTT said:
> 
> 
> > ...just wondering what your view is on the Defcon 3, and whether you think it might be suitable for me on my V6?


DEFCON 3 should "perfectly" mimic the MK1 arm. DEFCON 2 and 1 are even "tighter", but in my opinion, not too tight. Any level of DEFCON is an improvement over the MK2 arms...

And I like to think of myself as "a really nice chap" as well ; )


----------



## MCPaudiTT (Jan 17, 2007)

Rhod_TT said:


> Is that almost an impossible task?


All recalled arms are sent back to Audi (required, or the dealer does not get paid for the new parts) and are destroyed. They are VERY rare commodities. Not impossible to get, but after 1.5 years of searching, I decided to solve the problem another (much cheaper) way.


----------



## Speed Racer (May 21, 2006)

Ordered my DEFCON 2 tonight with new bolts.


----------



## Rhod_TT (May 7, 2002)

MCPaudiTT said:


> Rhod_TT said:
> 
> 
> > Is that almost an impossible task?
> ...


But the rear bush on the revised Mk1 arm isn't the same either. Any ideas what contribution that directional bush may have had? It's going to be more compliant in one plane than the other.


----------



## WAZ-TT (Sep 20, 2004)

Wak,
If I use the DEFCON 3 will the car be very twitchy?
I have the same ARB's as yourself and Eibach springs. The last thing I want to do is loose it in a fast corner.....


----------



## MCPaudiTT (Jan 17, 2007)

Rhod_TT said:


> MCPaudiTT said:
> 
> 
> > But the rear bush on the revised Mk1 arm isn't the same either. Any ideas what contribution that directional bush may have had? It's going to be more compliant in one plane than the other.


Note in my references to MK1 arm and MK2 arm, this has nothing to do with the new 2007 TT. MK1 arms are the arms that were on the TT until the recall in 2000/2001. In the US, we refer to the newer arm (2001+) on the MK1 TT as the "MK2 arm".

You are right that the MK1 arm uses a different rear bush as compared to the MK2 rear bush. That means both bushes on each of the front arms (there are two per arm) are different comparing MK1 arms to MK2 arms.

DEFCON 1 is a PowerFlex "MK1" style front bush, but in urethane, and an OEM MK2 rear bush

DEFCON 2 is an OEM MK1 front bush and OEM MK2 rear bush

DEFCON 3 is OEM MK1 bushes in BOTH positions (replicating the MK1 arm)

DEFCON 4 is an OEM MK1 front bush, and no rear bush (but most rear bushes I have seen are worn/split after as little as 25000 miles)

That said, DEFCON 1 is NOT twitchy - I ran this setup for two days at Willow Springs Raceway (I also have a 19 mm Neuspeed rear anti-sway bar and KW v3 coilovers, and VF engine mounts, Haldex "Race" controller, and, and... See my Fotki...), and it was great - diving VERY hard in to corners it still has some understeer, but 90% less than before DEFCONs. I never once felt like the rear was trying to come around on me.

My Fotki:

http://public.fotki.com/mcphill/audi_stuff/


----------



## MCPaudiTT (Jan 17, 2007)

WAZ-TT said:


> Wak,
> If I use the DEFCON 3 will the car be very twitchy?
> I have the same ARB's as yourself and Eibach springs. The last thing I want to do is loose it in a fast corner.....


Judge for yourself, does this look twitchy?

http://straightfocus.com/TT/MCPaudiTT/W ... otuses.avi


----------



## MCPaudiTT (Jan 17, 2007)

Speed Racer said:


> Ordered my DEFCON 2 tonight with new bolts.


Germany has been added to the map! (Just got the order list from Steve).


----------



## MCPaudiTT (Jan 17, 2007)

Anyone here from one of the "not Red" countries in my last post?

http://forums.audiworld.com/tt/msgs/1601319.phtml


----------



## WAZ-TT (Sep 20, 2004)

Wow, not twitchy then :lol: :lol:

Defcon 3 just ordered.......


----------



## Rhod_TT (May 7, 2002)

Do Wales and Scotland count as separate countries? (not that I'm in either of course)

And there looks to be a price increase on the cards: http://forums.audiworld.com/tt/msgs/1600866.phtml


----------



## Rhod_TT (May 7, 2002)

Anyone know what import duty we might get charged on these "ICB (intercontinental ballistic) mods"?

Was thinking of the Defcon3 version myself.


----------



## MCPaudiTT (Jan 17, 2007)

Rhod_TT said:


> Anyone know what import duty we might get charged on these "ICB (intercontinental ballistic) mods"?
> 
> Was thinking of the Defcon3 version myself.


Wak should be able to answer that... Can't be that much, as it is based on the value of the contents, right?


----------



## Johnwx (Oct 31, 2004)

VAT at 17.5% due on cost of item inc P+P plus a handling charge from whoever delivers it!
Don't know about import duty :?


----------



## ctgilles (Jul 5, 2005)

Have it marked as gift for 20Â£ and have the bill sent by seperate mail.


----------



## Wak (May 6, 2002)

I didnt get charged.... but thats just luck!


----------



## Rhod_TT (May 7, 2002)

Just thought I'd remind people that prices will be going up by 20% as of Saturday so if anyone was thinking about ordering these Defcon things then I'd advise doing it ASAP. I'm going to give myself another day to think about it.


----------



## Speed Racer (May 21, 2006)

My DEFCON kit showed up in the mail today. NC to Germany in a week...not bad. All of it is supremely nice. Too bad the adapters are hidden forever. Laser engraving is ace. MkI bushes are solid as a rock. Can't imagine any play in there. Given the bigger bore for the MkII bushes, it's easy to visualize how much play must be in there. Just waiting on my front upper shock mounts/bearings and my KW Variant 3s are ready for install. Bolts are quite nice too. They even include the 6 nuts for the ball joints (which I wasn't expecting).


----------



## jonas (Aug 1, 2006)

I would really like to see a group buy for this mod, a good combination like DEFCON + 4Motion/R32 ARB(s) + installation by AMD.

Wak, any chance arranging a group buy?


----------



## Speed Racer (May 21, 2006)

jonas said:


> I would really like to see a group buy for this mod, a good combination like DEFCON + 4Motion/R32 ARB(s) + installation by AMD.
> 
> Wak, any chance arranging a group buy?


If I were you I'd skip the ARB unless you're doing both. Still not sure why there's so much praise for the R32 bar (US R32 MkIV owners ditch it straight away as they start their mods). I've gone round and round on the ARB thing. I think I've settled on the 21mm rear H&R ARB set to soft. Ultra high quality, adjustable, never needs lube...perfect.

You should also include a new upper strut mount/bearing so it's a complete refresh to the front end. Very inexpensive addition. The point is to tighten everything up, as loose equals vague.


----------



## jonas (Aug 1, 2006)

Speed Racer said:


> Still not sure why there's so much praise for the R32 bar... You should also include a new upper strut mount/bearing so it's a complete refresh to the front end. Very inexpensive addition. The point is to tighten everything up, as loose equals vague.


Indeed, it would be really good to compile a list of working combinations. I don't have any experience on the ARBs, so let's hear what people can say about any preferred combos.

BTW, which ARB are the R32 owners changing to? I have only heard about R32 standard (R19/F23mm), 4Motion (R16mm), Neuspeed (R19mm), but these are for TT.


----------



## Rhod_TT (May 7, 2002)

I think the US R32 bar is a different diameter from the UK one. Or was that the S3. Either way just becasue it's the "same" car worldwide doesn't mean it's tuned the same.


----------



## Speed Racer (May 21, 2006)

jonas said:


> Speed Racer said:
> 
> 
> > Still not sure why there's so much praise for the R32 bar... You should also include a new upper strut mount/bearing so it's a complete refresh to the front end. Very inexpensive addition. The point is to tighten everything up, as loose equals vague.
> ...


Most R32 guys I know go to a more extreme 21mm or often times 25mm rear bar. The R32's F/R weight distribuion is far more front biased than the TT, so they have far more of an effort to make to try and induce oversteer (if that's their aim).

I don't doubt the R32 bar is good, but I can't help think that people like it 'cause it sounds cool (to have). The H&R bar is not pricey and is most definitely versatile and high quality, and the maintenance-free aspect is a plus.

My suspension mods are really a 2 step process. DEFCON and coilovers are step 1. I want to wait and see the affect before deciding on the need for adjustable tie bars (my planned drop is only 25mm) and rear ARB. I know step 1 will reduce understeer. It may be enough for my desire as I'm not looking for a lot of oversteer. Plus, the Haldex PP will increase oversteer under power so I'll do that before a bigger ARB anyway.


----------



## Speed Racer (May 21, 2006)

Rhod_TT said:


> I think the US R32 bar is a different diameter from the UK one. Or was that the S3. Either way just becasue it's the "same" car worldwide doesn't mean it's tuned the same.


Yeah, it's 15mm. I've waiting for a TT owner that actually knows for certain what size the Europe R32 bar actually is. If 19mm, that's adequate.


----------



## MCPaudiTT (Jan 17, 2007)

Speed Racer said:


> My DEFCON kit showed up in the mail today.


Have you had a chance to install yet?


----------



## Speed Racer (May 21, 2006)

MCPaudiTT said:


> Speed Racer said:
> 
> 
> > My DEFCON kit showed up in the mail today.
> ...


This upcoming Monday at 9 AM the installation begins. I should have it, as well as the KW coilvers, all installed by day's end. Not sure how much of an impression I'll get in the 5 mile drive home in traffic, but at least it'll be done. I'll report if there's anything noteworthy. I'm not really driving the car right now due to winter. Not sure how long the shocks wil take to settle. I'm quite excited about it all though...


----------



## Rhod_TT (May 7, 2002)

Speed Racer said:


> Rhod_TT said:
> 
> 
> > I think the US R32 bar is a different diameter from the UK one. Or was that the S3. Either way just becasue it's the "same" car worldwide doesn't mean it's tuned the same.
> ...


The European rear R32 bar is 19mm. Standard pre-recall TT bar was 15mm (225rear bar is 14mm from the factory). The R32 bars were preferred to aftermarket ones mainly due to price (was about Â£80 rear and Â£50 front) but that seems to have changed recently - the rear R32 bar alone is about Â£150 or something from a dealer - I guess they've been catching on to what we were all doing.

I had R32 bars fitted when my 225 front one failed and that replaced a 16mm 4Motion rear one. If I was doing it again I think I would have stuck with standard stiffness front bar and the slightly stiffer/thicker (by 2mm) rear bar from a 4Motion. R32 setup seems a bit too stiff for me.

But my Defcon 3 kit should be arriving shortly.


----------



## Speed Racer (May 21, 2006)

Rhod_TT said:


> Speed Racer said:
> 
> 
> > Rhod_TT said:
> ...


My OEM rear bar is 16mm. I will wait to see the affect of the KW coilovers and DEFCON mod before evaluating the need to change it. I may even wait on the evaluation until after the Haldex upgrade too. Ultimately, I want more neutral cornering than oversteer. A bigger ARB than 16mm for my car (V6) may be overkill after the compilation of the other mods.


----------



## MCPaudiTT (Jan 17, 2007)

Speed Racer said:


> ... for my car (V6) ...


Note that to install the DEFCONs on a 3.2, you will need to drop the subframe. The front bolt on the UK Passenger side (US and EU driver side) will not clear the DSG unit as is. Raising the motor does not yield enough clearance either. You should use new subframe bolts when done, as they are stretch bolts (though many don't replace them when alignment changes to the subframe are done).


----------



## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

So, is mine a Mk1 or Mk2 bush? I knew I should have measured it but thought it would be more obvious on the photo. Squinting at it a bit more I think it's a Mk2  Do you agree? It was supposed to have been changed in the recall.


----------



## MCPaudiTT (Jan 17, 2007)

Judging by this photo:










it would appear you have an MK2 set. The bush diameter on yours appear to flare out to a much larger diameter than the MK1 set does in this photo. A quick measurement would confirm it, though.


----------



## S3SteveW (Jan 27, 2007)

MCPaudiTT said:


> Also, if anyone is interested, these bushes also fit R32's...


So do these fit the S3 aswell?


----------



## pitzey (Sep 1, 2006)

hi wak how much would you charge to do my 225

cheers paul


----------



## MCPaudiTT (Jan 17, 2007)

S3SteveW said:


> So do these fit the S3 aswell?


To my knowledge, the S3 uses the stamped lower control arm as found in the Golf (or whatever you all call that car over there ; )

If that is the case, then the S3 is NOT the same.

However, if the S3 uses cast control arms, it would fit. In either case, you could use TT arms in the S3, and you could fit those arms with DEFCONs.

If you could take a picture of your S3 arms and post them, I could give you a more definitive answer (we don't have the S3 over here...).


----------



## Speed Racer (May 21, 2006)

Well, my TT has been DEFCON'd. Drove home in moderate traffic and rain so I have nothing of real value to report at this point. About the only thing I noticed is the heavy steering feel seems a little less heavy. Lots of bad weather in the forecast so it'll be a while before I can really give it a good thrash, but it's on the agenda!

I will say this, the KW coilovers are definitely more compliant (softer over little road irregularities) than OEM, yet there's zero body roll and pitch/dive. Can't wait for warmer weather!


----------



## Wak (May 6, 2002)

pitzey said:


> hi wak how much would you charge to do my 225
> 
> cheers paul


Its a bigger job than I can handle, AmD did mine, you need a hydraulic press to make things easier. :?


----------



## JAAYDE (Aug 15, 2006)

Wak said:


> pitzey said:
> 
> 
> > hi wak how much would you charge to do my 225
> ...


how lond did this take Wak.?


----------



## MCPaudiTT (Jan 17, 2007)

JAAYDE said:


> how lond did this take Wak.?


If they know what they are doing, it should take 2-3 hours. If they don't know what they are doing, it could take that long to get the first bush out (it is a real pain if you haven't done it before). The same bush needs to come out to do the Polyurethane upgrade that has been around for years, though, so many shops should have at least some experience.


----------



## JAAYDE (Aug 15, 2006)

MCPaudiTT said:


> JAAYDE said:
> 
> 
> > how lond did this take Wak.?
> ...


Thanks chap..


----------



## Speed Racer (May 21, 2006)

JAAYDE said:


> MCPaudiTT said:
> 
> 
> > JAAYDE said:
> ...


My shop charged me 1 hour to do the DEFCON 2 mod. They have a press. It wasn't a busy day for them. I know they had a couple of guys working on it. The car will need an alignment too, which at my shop was a separate charge (set rate). Good idea to source all the stretch bolts and nuts you'll need in advance. Any bolts/nuts that have to be removed should be replaced.


----------

