# Car Theft



## Arbalest (Feb 27, 2015)

Been a lot of talk recently on this forum about car theft which has got me thinking about security.
My TT does not have the 'Advanced Key' feature so I have to press the button on the key fob to open the car. Does this mean that I do not need to worry about getting a Faraday pouch for the key fob; or is the key fob giving out a signal that could be picked up by the sort of relay devices used by car thieves and hence a Faraday pouch would be a good idea. 
Any advice welcomed.


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## Mark Pred (Feb 1, 2017)

You need not be concerned, as you don't have keyless entry. The key has to be within a couple of feet of the car to enable starting the engine. It will not work any further away than that. See for yourself by trying to start the car with the key outside the car... it will not work. So, QED, to steal your car, they'd need to physically use the key fob. Keep that upstairs in a hidden key safe and hide the spare somewhere else - loft, another location, etc. Fit a house alarm, lock all doors and windows, don't just put the latch on. Sorted. 99% of crims won't bother you, as you've made it so difficult for them.

I opted not to have Advance Key when I ordered my TTS, given the fact that it makes your car very easy to steal. Last year there was an S3 stolen without keys a few streets away from me and CCTV the fella had showed that they were holding up some kind of device to get the key signal. They had the car away in under a minute  Even the sales guy at Audi agreed with me that it was probably a good thing not to spec keyless entry, given that's the most common method of nicking cars now, second only to stealing keys that people are leaving within easy reach of the crims.


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

Nothing to do with AK, its doesn't change the odds of it happening and the signal travels no further with or without it.
All the reports are for people breaking in, taking the keys and driving off.. corner cases will alway happen.


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## chelspeed (May 6, 2017)

Even with keyless when you park at home you can lock the car with fob then touch the door handle within 5 secs which turns keyless entry off. So spec keyless for the convenience the rest of the time then don't use it when the keys will be nearby ie at home. Best of both worlds.


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## TRTT (Sep 16, 2015)

That was a regrettable option for me. The inconvenience of needing to put your keys in a faraday case e.g. when you're in the house and you car's parked in the garage/driveway, massively outweighs the additional convenience of not needing to hit the button before reaching for the door handle.


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

You must have a small house or the car parked in the porch... The key doesn't work after about 6"
I'm completely perplexed where this "need" for a faraday pouch comes from.

Same with my contactless cards... I've not been robbed yet..!


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## TRTT (Sep 16, 2015)

No - the car doesn't open if you approach it when the car is say, in the garage and the key is in the house. The problem is the repeater style devices thieves can use to pick up the signal from the key and then extend it to the car. This is the issue...






I have no idea how far a signal could be picked up from, nor how such devices perform through different mediums (glass, walls etc). I have a large house with a large connected double garage in a very low crime area, but watching this kind of stuff still makes me paranoid about keeping my keys either far enough away from where the car is parked e.g. not just the other side of door, or keeping them only a few meters from the internal garage door, but using a FC.


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## RobinHelsby (Mar 24, 2018)

TRTT said:


> No - the car doesn't open if you approach it when the car is say, in the garage and the key is in the house. The problem is the repeater style devices thieves can use to pick up the signal from the key and then extend it to the car. This is the issue...


This method was used to steal a colleague's Mercedes, and to get into another colleague's BMW to steal his laptop


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## ross_t_boss (Feb 28, 2017)

I would be interesting to know what range the keys can be picked up from, the police suggest "keys left on worktops and near the front door" are part of the issue - so if it has be within say 2m and near a window/glass then yes, the Faraday bag is a bit overkill

I have a 'key box' by my kitchen window so technically someone chancing it could get a repeater within 6 inches of the keys. A 'faraday key box' would sort that out without any change in behaviour or routine.

I have keyless entry and stick them in a metal 'man tin' I keep by my bedside table (usually reserved for loose change, allen keys, small screwdriver set and other useful stuff I can never find when I need it :lol Oh, and I bought RTI gap cover for £250.

Different ball game to contactless cards. Those can be vulnerable in packed places with a reader held against your leg hoping to catch a card in your pocket (e.g. busy tube, concert) but the range for keyless entry is obviously magnitudes higher hence more vulnerable.


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

From personal experience on the R8 you can be stood next to the car just out of arm reach and it won't work if someone tries the handle..


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## ZephyR2 (Feb 20, 2013)

I thought these relay devices extended the range of your key signal as they were able to detect a weak signal from your fob from more than the normal 1 to 2 metres and then amplify and send it to a receiver unit placed next to the car. So keys could be located some way inside your house and still be picked up.
I don't know what the limits of these devices are but my standard fob can lock / unlock the car from up to 40 metres away.


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## TRTT (Sep 16, 2015)

ZephyR2 said:


> I thought these relay devices extended the range of your key signal as they were able to detect a weak signal from your fob from more than the normal 1 to 2 metres and then amplify and send it to a receiver unit placed next to the car. So keys could be located some way inside your house and still be picked up.
> I don't know what the limits of these devices are but my standard fob can lock / unlock the car from up to 40 metres away.


Yup. That's precisely my point...and why I don't see a Faraday-something as overkill from the perspective of technical possibilities.


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## Hoggy (May 8, 2002)

Hi zephy, Standard fobs don't send out a signal until button is pressed so are safe compared to Advanced Key Function.
Hoggy.


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## ZephyR2 (Feb 20, 2013)

From what I understand Passive Keyless Entry works by the car sending out a LF signal periodically or when a button is pressed on a handle for example. The remote fob is not transmitting all the time (battery life would be too short) but it is listening in sleep mode. When the fob "hears" a recognised signal from the car it wakes up and emits a more powerful UHF signal to lock / unlock just as it would if you pressed a button on the fob. This typically has a range of 50 metres or more.

Normally the fob will only be able to receive the weak LF signal from the car when it is close within 1 or 2 metres so that when you and your fob are away from the car no activation can take place.

The way most relay hacks work is by amplifying the LF signal from the car to the key fob. This can then wake up the fob even if it is some distance away inside the house. Where upon the fob recognises the signal and sends a UHF signal back to the car unlocking it. Because of the range of the UHF signal from the fob there is no need for relay systems to amplify the signal from the fob.

Placing the fob in a Faraday pouch or foil prevents it from receiving a LF signal from the car and therefore from transmitting an unlock signal back.

Variations on this set up are in use by different manufacturers but this appears to be the basic method of operation.


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## Mark Pred (Feb 1, 2017)

Hoggy said:


> Hi zephy, Standard fobs don't send out a signal until button is pressed so are safe compared to Advanced Key Function.
> Hoggy.


In a nutshell, you're spot on 

Interestingly, when we renewed the car insurance for our Golf R, the missis was asked on one insurers website if it had keyless entry. She did the quote with and then without, premium went up by £187 for keyless


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## TRTT (Sep 16, 2015)

Toshiba said:


> From personal experience on the R8 you can be stood next to the car just out of arm reach and it won't work if someone tries the handle..


You're missing the point here. See below...



ZephyR2 said:


> Normally the fob will only be able to receive the weak LF signal from the car when it is close within 1 or 2 metres so that when you and your fob are away from the car no activation can take place.
> 
> The way most relay hacks work is by amplifying the LF signal from the car to the key fob. This can then wake up the fob even if it is some distance away inside the house. Where upon the fob recognises the signal and sends a UHF signal back to the car unlocking it. Because of the range of the UHF signal from the fob there is no need for relay systems to amplify the signal from the fob.
> 
> Placing the fob in a Faraday pouch or foil prevents it from receiving a LF signal from the car and therefore from transmitting an unlock signal back.


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

No i'm not, you're just propagating an urban legend or at least extrapolating to infinity.

The signal travels inches, so unless you have the key on the back of the door you can't amplify something that's not there to be amplified.. it's just a relay device. if the above was true you have bigger problems and it would impact pretty much every TT regardless. If the car is unlocked the same magical mythical amplifier would allow you to start the car as the ignition system works on proximity too regardless of the key fob.

The normal key fobs (when pressed) work anything from 5-20meters away... 
If they really want the car, they will take it.


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## ZephyR2 (Feb 20, 2013)

Toshiba said:


> No i'm not, you're just propagating an urban legend or at least extrapolating to infinity.
> 
> The signal travels inches, so unless you have the key on the back of the door you can't amplify something that's not there to be amplified.. it's just a relay device. if the above was true you have bigger problems and it would impact pretty much every TT regardless. If the car is unlocked the same magical mythical amplifier would allow you to start the car as the ignition system works on proximity too regardless of the key fob.


No you are missing the point. Yes under normal circumstances the signal from the car to the fob does only travel inches - maybe about 36 inches like you say. But if you amplify that signal it can travel much further - even through walls and into a house where it can reach a fob.

Not every TT would be affected. Only those with Passive Keyless Entry systems - which Audi calls Advanced key. Standard systems where you have to press a button on a fob cannot be attacked in this manner.

Yes thieves with relay equipment can and do start the cars and steal them. However after unlocking the car the relay has then to be placed inside the car where it will send a recognised RFID tag to the car fooling the proximity sensor into thinking that the fob is now inside the car and allowing the ignition to be fired up.


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

It's nowhere near 36" its 6 to 12" and thats real not dick inches.. its just scare mongering, its not real.
Can it been done? Sure if you have you keys next to the door, but they could 'also' just fish they keys through the letter box in that scenario too.





I only said all TTs are impacted if "unlocked", the keyless start uses the same technology... But you are happy to admit you only have a range on that of around 12" for that..?


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## ZephyR2 (Feb 20, 2013)

You don't have to believe me Tosh, there are plenty of scientific studies and reports on the subject from reputable organisations that can be found on line .


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## Arbalest (Feb 27, 2015)

Many thanks to those of you who responded to my original post. Although there seems to be some difference of opinion on the subject of signal range there seems to be little doubt that those cars without 'Advanced Key' (such as mine) are not at risk of 'relay theft' so I do not need to bother getting a Faraday pouch for my key fob.
However I am still thinking of beefing up security (for the deterrent effect if nothing else) and have been looking at the 2 obvious candidates of a Disklok or a Stoplock Pro Elite. The disklok seems to be superior (it should be at twice the price of the Pro Elite) but I have read that some people find it heavy and cumbersome to use and also it can damage the steering wheel even when used with the protective cover. So I would be interested to hear from any forum members who have experience of either of these devices; ease of use/storage, steering wheel damage etc. Thanks.


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## DPG (Dec 7, 2005)

I've used a Pro elite on my last 2 cars and never noticed any steering wheel damage.


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## ross_t_boss (Feb 28, 2017)

The relay theft uses 2 transmitter-receivers, one near the car impersonating "the key" and another getting within the required range of the actual key. In order to impersonate the key the first device needs to be in "dick length" range of the key yes, but the second device doesn't have to be in such close proximity to the key to 'wake it up' - it can be up to a couple of meters from what I've seen but I have no idea what the max range typically would be.

What I don't understand is how the car is started - surely the key has to be in the car using an second authentication mechanism to actually start, e.g. using RFID to identify itself. To clone that would need keys to be near the door or a window - meaning yes, the thief can easily get into the car but does require an RFID clone to be made (with sub 1m proximity) in order to actually start it. Perhaps this is what Tosh is getting at?

I'd think a faraday bag is not a bag shout, get in the habit of putting keys somewhere secure overnight as a preventative to anyone accessing the car, but personally I'm happy with my keyless entry and make a habit of keeping keys away from 'easy access' via a letterbox or window as a deterrent but if anyone actually gets through my high-security doors then they are clearly serious enough that I'd want them to take the keys, and I'll have to invoke my gap cover.


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## leopard (May 1, 2015)

Are we talking imperial or metric dick length here, makes for a big difference


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

leopard said:


> Are we talking imperial or metric dick length here, makes for a big difference


I'm going with whatever sounds best at the bar..



Arbalest said:


> seems to be little doubt that those cars without 'Advanced Key' (such as mine) are not at risk of 'relay theft' so I do not need to bother getting a Faraday pouch for my key fob.


 You are at a lesser risk. if the car is open and the keys are close to the door the same relay attack can fool the car as to the presence of the key in the vehicle. Once started the car doesn't need the key to drive.


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## Arbalest (Feb 27, 2015)

Toshiba said:


> You are at a lesser risk. if the car is open and the keys are close to the door the same relay attack can fool the car as to the presence of the key in the vehicle. Once started the car doesn't need the key to drive.


True enough. As a matter of interest would the car restart without the key being present,in auto stop/start mode?


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

yes it does. try it...


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## Ruudfood (Apr 9, 2018)

I have the Stoplock Pro Elite and I'm very happy with it. The main part is covered in a hard plastic but not too hard to do any damage to anything if you're careful with it. Where it locks onto the steering wheel is potentially where you can do the damage but I try to be careful when putting it on.


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## _ade_ (Aug 12, 2013)

I use the disklok, yes it is heavy and with a little practice I now have no issues getting it on and off, I do however do it standing outside the car. Also, if you park with the steering wheel upside down, flat bottom at the top, the reduces the risks of damage to the wheel as it changes the pressure points. Six months in with mine and there is still not a mark on the steering wheel


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## Edinburra (Aug 19, 2016)

Arbalest said:


> Many thanks to those of you who responded to my original post. Although there seems to be some difference of opinion on the subject of signal range there seems to be little doubt that those cars without 'Advanced Key' (such as mine) are not at risk of 'relay theft' so I do not need to bother getting a Faraday pouch for my key fob.
> However I am still thinking of beefing up security (for the deterrent effect if nothing else) and have been looking at the 2 obvious candidates of a Disklok or a Stoplock Pro Elite. The disklok seems to be superior (it should be at twice the price of the Pro Elite) but I have read that some people find it heavy and cumbersome to use and also it can damage the steering wheel even when used with the protective cover. So I would be interested to hear from any forum members who have experience of either of these devices; ease of use/storage, steering wheel damage etc. Thanks.


I've used a Disclok for some eight years on various cars, BMW's and now my TT. Never had any damage to the steering wheel as I've always used the elasticated cover. Should you decide on a Disclok be sure to buy the carry bag as the Disclok is a substantial bit of kit and the bag helps you move it around, even if you only use it to put the device behind the seat when not in use. When I bought mine I reckon it cost me the same as a tank of fuel, cheap when you consider its deterrent capability.


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## ZephyR2 (Feb 20, 2013)

Indeed. Unless you keep the key for it on the same ring as your fob.


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## 90TJM (Sep 30, 2013)

There is a Wheel lock made by Hayner which uses a PIN lock.Not sure how secure they are.


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## MClaine55 (Feb 16, 2018)

Assume it's possible on a TT, Stoplock pro elite - fit it so each of the curved locking bars fit either side of the steering wheel cross bar. Alegedly this means a thief has to make two cuts or at least more work to cut the wheel. So more noise and time can put them off a bit. Keep the SLPE key separate from your car key.


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## Mark Pred (Feb 1, 2017)

MClaine55 said:


> Assume it's possible on a TT, Stoplock pro elite - fit it so each of the curved locking bars fit either side of the steering wheel cross bar. Alegedly this means a thief has to make two cuts or at least more work to cut the wheel. So more noise and time can put them off a bit. Keep the SLPE key separate from your car key.


I wouldn't buy one of those. One tap with a hammer and the lock's done. Seen a video online of someone doing it, so no doubt the crims will have too. Also, if you read the reviews, a lot of people saying it damaged their steering wheel.


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## DPG (Dec 7, 2005)

Mark Pred said:


> MClaine55 said:
> 
> 
> > Assume it's possible on a TT, Stoplock pro elite - fit it so each of the curved locking bars fit either side of the steering wheel cross bar. Alegedly this means a thief has to make two cuts or at least more work to cut the wheel. So more noise and time can put them off a bit. Keep the SLPE key separate from your car key.
> ...


Have you got any links to the videos?

When I was researching the stoplock pro elite was reviewed quite highly and was the best of the stoplock style devices.

Anything can be cracked but the tests I saw said it look 5mins to get a Pro Elite off


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## phazer (Apr 2, 2018)

DPG said:


> Mark Pred said:
> 
> 
> > MClaine55 said:
> ...


The same review that rated the stop lock as the best device set its stall out by saying they would rate on ability to cut the steering wheel to remove....guess what, the number 1 lock can be removed by cutting the wheel.

I would be temped to say the review(s) was/were paid for.


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