# Nurburgring report



## Carlos (May 6, 2002)

We went, we drove round a few times, we came back.

Well I thought a concise version would make a useful alternative to the novel that I'm certain that Stu is currently putting together :wink:


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## jonno (May 7, 2002)

Sounds like you boys had a great time :lol:

Did you take the scooby?


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## Stu-Oxfordshire (May 7, 2002)

Yes, after the fatality on Sunday, it was good to come back. 
All in all a great trip. Some salient points:

- 420 miles door to door each way 
- The circuit is totally addictive
- Weekend public days are getting silly now. Far too many people.

Some pics from the trip here: 
http://public.fotki.com/Stu-Oxford/nurburgring_2005/

Before you ask yes, the Exige on the back of the tow truck is Rob's. Exiting Brunnchen at warp speed, he ran over the rumble blocks (unique to the nordschliefe) and the car said "no way" and switched off the electrics. After relieving him of 175 Euros (cost of being pulled off the ring - arf) Afterwards, Rob discovered this was due to some device which detects you are about to have an accident and turns off the fuel. A simple reset was done and once again, england's finest were running wild in the nest of the Luftwaffe 

Still, seeing Rob pull off the circuit with no damage was much better than the Cooper S on it's roof exiting Wipperman on my first lap on Sunday at 08:10hrs. That crash led to a 80 minute closure.....20 minutes later and things got far worse....

Aside from that there was much humour and banter on the trip....none in the least watching the footage of a certian person taking 20 minutes to get a camera rigged up only to see if fall off 20 seconds into a 2 lap stint. Comedy ensued.

Some more bits of info:

- Rob's Exige is uber fast. We never timed it but I reckon 8 mins 15 sec laps given I was lapping at the 9 minute bracket. 
- The Germans like cars which spit flames  
- Carl, can you post that pic of the Carrera GT?

- Some more pics of here: 
Entering Flugplatz:









Overtaking someone at Wipperman:








Braking into Brunnchen:


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## Guest (Jun 15, 2005)

good stuff.... 8)

great smoking ferrari


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## omen666 (Oct 10, 2004)

Fantasic pics, u sure you can make Sept? We could do with an experienced Ringer


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## r1 (Oct 31, 2002)

Nice pics. 

What was going on with the Ferrari?

When you do your Ring trips do you take spare tyres/brakes with you or do they last reseasonabley well there?


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## Multiprocess (Aug 9, 2004)

Fantastic pics, sounds like you had a great time!


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

Excellent pics Stu.

Glad you all made it back in 1 piece.

Talk about whetting my appetite. You have to come along in September. All that Ring experience is needed to assist us virgins (can't count scoTTy as he crashed :wink: ).


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## Carlos (May 6, 2002)

I took a set of brake pads with me, and a tyre (I have sticky track tyres, you can't get hold of them from any old tyre place). IMO better to be on the safe side, it would be a shame to go all that way and have it ruined.

Ferrari engine went pop, overheated I think.

Stu alluded to it, but on sunday morning an M3 driver was killed after he lost control at Schwedenkreuz (probably mis-spelled that). He barrel-rolled a long way down the track and ended up in the gravel at the next corner (Aremburg). No crash helmet. Dead at the scene. This affected me really badly, for a while I questioned WTF I was doing there. Went out towards close of play on sunday and got the confidence back. Monday was my best ever driving experience.

As a result of the crash I've decided not to go on track again without a roll cage. The mini on its roof out of Wipperman was quite badly squashed, although I think the driver walked away. Clip a kerb wrongly and you go over. Helmet (as always), rollcage and harnesses is the way to go for me.


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## Carlos (May 6, 2002)

A somewhat elevated impreza coming over Quiddelbacher-hohe. Must save some pennies for the suspension :wink:

Edit: Those of you playing GT4 who haven't visited, its been said lots of times, but the game just does not do the circuit justice - the height changes are massive. In the pic below, above my nearside wing mirror, you can see the entry to Hocheichen (the previous corner) - its a long way below...

Just typing up my experiences makes me excited, I want to go again. Now.








:


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## HighTT (Feb 14, 2004)

Carlos said:


> As a result of the crash I've decided not to go on track again without a roll cage. The mini on its roof out of Wipperman was quite badly squashed, although I think the driver walked away. Clip a kerb wrongly and you go over. Helmet (as always), rollcage and harnesses is the way to go for me.


Really sad to hear about the fatality .....

That's why I don't track the TT 
but have a dedicated trackday car with cage and harness
( and of course helmet).

And although it's road legal I don't like using it on the road
because the harness means I can't reach for anything I shouldn't
really be reaching for  and if I did have an accident I could hit my
unhelmetted head on the cage


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## Justhe1 (Jul 2, 2002)

Very interested in the above write up and some great pics.....!! 

I'm also desperate to go to the Ring, but have to say am somewhat unerved by the sad news about the M3 driver 

Glad to hear you had a great time and made it back safely!!

I've got some tough thinking to do about whether I go for it or not now...

J


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

Without making light of it, fatalaties happen on normal roads as well...

If we worried about crashing or being crashed into every time we went out, we'd never drive... :?


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## Carlos (May 6, 2002)

Justhe1 said:


> I'm also desperate to go to the Ring, but have to say am somewhat unerved by the sad news about the M3 driver


So was I. I had a period of very quiet contemplation on sunday, questioning whether it was worth it. I rationalised it this way: The part of the circuit where it happened is notorious, I am scared stiff of it. As a result I pootle around at 80-90mph. The Schwedenkreuz corner is only dangerous at great speed - at 85mph it barely registers as a corner, more of a kink. The M3 will have been going through there at probably 130mph (speculation). We understand that the driver was experienced and fast but with very little Ring experience.


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## omen666 (Oct 10, 2004)

Did you guys get the benefit of the Palmer tuition?

Where you able to improve your technique and times now you have had the training?


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## Carlos (May 6, 2002)

Kind of.

It has definitely made me a smoother driver, but Palmer's technique involves control at/near the limit, learning how to take the same corners again and again, feeling for the grip, feeling for the phase where grip is being lost.

I didn't dare drive like that at the Ring!!!

Its hard to judge yourself how a course like this changes your driving in the absolute sense, I just know I am holding the wheel more delicately, feeling for information. I need to go somewhere like Bedford before really experimenting.


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## r1 (Oct 31, 2002)

Shame about the M3 driver - always sad when something like this happens....suprised he wasn't wearing a helmet although from whats been said I doubt it would have helped. 

I badly want to go now :twisted: . I am planning a biking trip across France/Itlay but I'm losing interest in it rapidly as I think about 'Ring'ing the Porker! Damn. I wish you hadn't posted this.


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## shao_khan (May 7, 2002)

Did you see the new RS4s out there? Audi had 2 or 3 at the ring.


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

r1 said:


> Shame about the M3 driver - always sad when something like this happens....suprised he wasn't wearing a helmet although from whats been said I doubt it would have helped.
> 
> I badly want to go now :twisted: . I am planning a biking trip across France/Itlay but I'm losing interest in it rapidly as I think about 'Ring'ing the Porker! Damn. I wish you hadn't posted this.


Get yourself down their with us lot then in September

http://www.********.co.uk/ttforumbbs/vi ... hp?t=37872


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## Carlos (May 6, 2002)

shao_khan said:


> Did you see the new RS4s out there? Audi had 2 or 3 at the ring.


Kev saw one, I think he might have a picture, I'll ask him when they get back from Le Mans.


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## r1 (Oct 31, 2002)

W7 PMC said:


> r1 said:
> 
> 
> > Shame about the M3 driver - always sad when something like this happens....suprised he wasn't wearing a helmet although from whats been said I doubt it would have helped.
> ...


Tempting, very tempting.  Can't really do it this year though as much as I'd like to. Will definitely be up for a ring trip next year though.


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## Carlos (May 6, 2002)

r1 said:


> suprised he wasn't wearing a helmet although from whats been said I doubt it would have helped.


Believe it or not most of the Germans/Dutch do not wear helmets, even those going round in 500+ bhp Porsches...


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

W7 PMC said:


> All that Ring experience is needed to assist us virgins (can't count scoTTy as he crashed :wink: ).


Which means I've got experience of that as well! :roll: :wink:


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## gcp (Aug 8, 2002)

Nice write up.

Shame about the M3 driver but sounds lucky he didin't take someone else out too.

How long a wait between laps ?

Roll on September trip.


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

scoTTy said:


> W7 PMC said:
> 
> 
> > All that Ring experience is needed to assist us virgins (can't count scoTTy as he crashed :wink: ).
> ...


*LOL*. Very good point well made :lol: :wink:


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## silkman (Jul 29, 2004)

This is a fantastic thread with great info and great pics. Loved it!!


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## Stu-Oxfordshire (May 7, 2002)

Carlos said:


> Justhe1 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm also desperate to go to the Ring, but have to say am somewhat unerved by the sad news about the M3 driver
> ...


Yes, I would echo this. You have to look at the facts.

- The corner in itself is not dangerous. It is the execution at high speed which dramatically reduces the margin for error and subsequently presents the danger.

- This driver (apparently) had very little experience of the Nordschliefe. Anyone who has been will tell you that experience counts for everything there.

- The speeds at which I was taking that corner did not present any more than a very low level risk which, should something go wrong and I lose control of the vehicle, I am travelling at 50-70mph LESS than the M3 driver, probably not even fast enough to reach the barrier. When you are travelling at 140mph and you lose control of the vehicle, that is a frightening level of energy and force to slow.

So in looking at the facts, one convinces oneself that actually, providing you drive with a suitable level of self preservation, the north loop offers much less inherent danger.

Apparently this was *only* the second death at the scene this corner has witnessed since the 2 ferrari 360 driver/passenger perished there in 2003. As Carl said, the corner is notorious for heavy accidents...but that is because people with little knowledge of the track carry 130+ mph of speed through there on the wrong lilne. At this speed, if you have to back out of the throttle (or worse, apply the brake) at Schwedenkreuz then you are highly unlikely to retain control of the car as the camber is adverse and there are bumps at the apex. These bumps, when taken at 90 mph barely register but at 140 they are harsh. 
That said, in rob's Exige, we were travelling at a similar speed over the apex and the car just soaked it up....it was rock solid because he was on the right line.

I have found a few pics which illustrate the speed of the corner:

This is what it looks like on corner entry:









This is looking back up the track towards the exit of flugplatz, which leads down to Schwedenkreuz (which is not in this shot)









This pic is looking at Schwedenkreuz









A better pic of the corner itself and the exit leading down to Aremberg









The reality of the events of Sunday morning lead to much introspective thinking. If you take this thought to one extreme, then you could say that any road driving is too dangerous and not venture out at all. We looked at the facts and decided that we would not be putting our cars or ourselves in this situation therefore, the risk is dramatically reduced down to safer than road level risk. This level of risk is acceptable, so let's go out and enjoy ourselves.

As a father however, it has hit me very hard, particularly when one considers the impact on this person's family. I am fortunate enough to live a 100% fulfilled life. I do not NEED to do this type of activity so why am I here? What is missing in my life that makes me leave my family and drive across europe to this track? Well, the answer is nothing is missing. But.....we all need a level of energy release in our lives. Some people ski, some people scuba dive or rock climb. These activities have equally high risks. Track driving and in fact the whole nurburgring experience is fantastic fun, provided you keep it safe.

The reality was that we proably filled up in the same petrol station as this guy, took a piss in the same urinal and so on. He went out through the barriers and did not come back. A family received a phone call that morning that no one ever should have to experience. That is hard to think about and I defy anyone not to feel remorse or sadness towards the incident, however carelessly he may (or may not) have been ddriving. My condolences, for what they are worth, go to his family.



omen666 said:


> Did you guys get the benefit of the Palmer tuition?
> 
> Where you able to improve your technique and times now you have had the training?


Like Carl said, you don't want to take "on the limit handling" to the ring :roll: But yes, it did give me considerable confidence in the car and habitual learning about what happens and what I need to do, when the car is out of shape. It will be much more beneficial at Combe or Bedford, where you can let it hang out a bit more safely as there is more run off and far far more slower corners to test it than at the ring.


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## jonah (Aug 17, 2002)

Justhe1 said:


> Very interested in the above write up and some great pics.....!!
> 
> I'm also desperate to go to the Ring, but have to say am somewhat unerved by the sad news about the M3 driver
> 
> ...


The first time i ever ventured ointo a track was at the Riing with Rob, Stu, and Scotty 2yrs ago and although it can be dangerous as any road can be it the atmosphere there that really gets you. I by no means a good driver on a track and i survived thanks to some tuition from Rob :wink: 
You can drive round the Ring at what ever pace you want, there's buses lorries that go round just to say they've been.
Its by far one of the best weekend breaks you can do and should be classes as one the wonders of the world :wink:


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## Carlos (May 6, 2002)

Stu-Oxfordshire said:


> This is what it looks like on corner entry:


Not in a car it doesn't :lol:


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## shao_khan (May 7, 2002)

Mate of mine was there over the weekend and has some pics just here, they include some shots of certain Audis:

http://www.poundhost.com/mbclub-file/20 ... efault.htm


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## omen666 (Oct 10, 2004)

At last pictures of the Mark 2 TT!

Stu, is that you inside, looks like your helmet :lol:


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## omen666 (Oct 10, 2004)

Rob, is this you?


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## Stu-Oxfordshire (May 7, 2002)

omen666 said:


> Rob, is this you?


Yeah that's Rob for sure. 
He's in Le Mans this week (lucky sod) so will no doubt respond when he gets back.

Getting back and finding that lots of people have taken pics of your car is always a pleasant surprise.


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## shao_khan (May 7, 2002)

Scott who took them said if anyone wants a highres pic with their car in send him an email at [email protected].


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## jonno (May 7, 2002)

shao_khan said:


> Mate of mine was there over the weekend and has some pics just here, they include some shots of certain Audis....


jeez... I've not reached the end yet and got RSI in my mouse finger - nice piccies!


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## MikeyB (Sep 30, 2004)

Top pics Stu! Sounds like you had a fantastic weekend. :mrgreen:

Sorry to hear about the M3 driver.


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## StuarTT (May 7, 2002)

The company that runs the 'Ring stopped publishing accident statistics several years ago as they were beginning to have an effect on the local economy.

An average of 14 people a year are killed at the 'Ring during public sessions. Most of them tend to be Bikers because they have less of a crumpler zone.

I will be going to the 'Ring again in August, but keeping within my own limits and not letting myself be infected by the atmosphere.


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## Stu-Oxfordshire (May 7, 2002)

StuarTT said:


> The company that runs the 'Ring stopped publishing accident statistics several years ago as they were beginning to have an effect on the local economy.
> 
> An average of 14 people a year are killed at the 'Ring during public sessions. Most of them tend to be Bikers because they have less of a crumpler zone.
> 
> I will be going to the 'Ring again in August, but keeping within my own limits and not letting myself be infected by the atmosphere.


er.....from memory the bikers have no crumple zone...unless they are fat.

I was certainly affected by the atmosphere...it's great. Just take it easy on track.


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## bape (Jan 16, 2005)

Could someone point me in the direction of some good ring driving videos. I have been told there are some where you can watch the drivers foot work and see the road at the same time.

Really want to do the ring, but want to get prepared for it first.

Any help greatly appreciated - thanks.


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## StuarTT (May 7, 2002)

There was a link to a video posted here of the guy driving a RUF Porsche around the 'Ring wearing shorts and sandals. Can't seem to find it at the moment.

Hope this link works:

http://www.ttatwest.net/event/2k5/5jf/5jfvidsanbr.html

The car in front is me!


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## Stu-Oxfordshire (May 7, 2002)

bape said:


> Could someone point me in the direction of some good ring driving videos. I have been told there are some where you can watch the drivers foot work and see the road at the same time.
> 
> Really want to do the ring, but want to get prepared for it first.
> 
> Any help greatly appreciated - thanks.


The best thing you can do is get out there. Nothing prepares you for it. As soon as you have done one lap, all thoughts you had from any prior visual knowledge will be forgotten. I have played GT4 and watched numerous ring related (arf) DVD's / movies and have picked up very little.

But in the meantime, playing GT4 and ragging round the nordschliefe in something like a MkV Golf will help a little bit in terms of anticipating what corner comes next.

The best DVD to buy is called "Nissan Skyline GTR: The Beast from the East" 
It has 3 in car laps with Dirk Schoysman driving a road prepped 450bhp Skyline. The in car footage is the best DVD footage I have ever seen. The only thing I learnt from it is simplifying the very last corner on the track form a long right hander into effectively, two apexes. 
See here: 
http://www.dukevideo.com/products/3638.htm


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## kmpowell (May 6, 2002)

Carlos said:


> shao_khan said:
> 
> 
> > Did you see the new RS4s out there? Audi had 2 or 3 at the ring.
> ...


And here she is, a nice looking car it was too. I manged to get a few snaps as it was driving to the entry barrier!!


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

Stu-Oxfordshire said:


> The only thing I learnt from it is simplifying the very last corner on the track form a long right hander into effectively, two apexes.


I hope your GT4 times get better now. :roll:


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## bape (Jan 16, 2005)

Thanks for the advice, really want to go, but want to prep myself a bit if i can, still shit scared of the place


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

bape said:


> still shit scared of the place


That's a good thing!


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## bape (Jan 16, 2005)

scoTTy said:


> bape said:
> 
> 
> > still shit scared of the place
> ...


I'll take your word for it 

Damon said there were a few good videos showing the road in one half and the drivers feet in the other half, anyone know where i can download these from.
Note to self......... must get to driving school


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## Stu-Oxfordshire (May 7, 2002)

bape said:


> scoTTy said:
> 
> 
> > bape said:
> ...


I have a 38mb file of Takayuki Kinoshita driving a Evo IX round the ring....it has footwell cam as well as behind the wheel. If someone is prepared to host it I will post it up.


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