# VW Golf GTi Vs Ford Focus ST



## deanpoli

What do you guys reckon on these hot hatches then?

Which is the better car? Has anyone driven these two??


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## Toshiba

focus is better in every way a car can be better for me.

more power, faster, better handling, cheaper to run, and will not breakdown.

what else can you want?

However its you money, your choice.


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## BAMTT

Toshiba said:


> focus is better in every way a car can be better for me.
> 
> more power, faster, better handling, cheaper to run, and will not breakdown.
> 
> what else can you want?
> 
> However its you money, your choice.


Ditto except on residuals


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## Toshiba

well funny you say that, glasses have predicted it will hold its money better - 
http://www.carpages.co.uk/ford/ford-foc ... =982087021
http://www.newcarnet.co.uk/Ford_news.ht ... s=Vauxhall

guess only time will tell.


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## che6mw

BAMTT said:


> Toshiba said:
> 
> 
> 
> focus is better in every way a car can be better for me.
> 
> more power, faster, better handling, cheaper to run, and will not breakdown.
> 
> what else can you want?
> 
> However its you money, your choice.
> 
> 
> 
> Ditto except on residuals
Click to expand...

True but then there are some fantastic deals on these at the moment. It is a very cheap way to get into a lovely orange beasty.


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## BAMTT

http://www.********.co.uk/ttforumbbs/vi ... hp?t=53667


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## jampott

Toshiba said:


> focus is better in every way a car can be better for me.
> 
> more power, faster, better handling, cheaper to run, and will not breakdown.
> 
> what else can you want?
> 
> However its you money, your choice.


Have you driven both then?


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## Wolfsburger

jampott said:


> Have you driven both then?


I doubt it :roll:


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## jampott

I can't imagine Ford promising "it will not breakdown" - come to think of it, it isn't the tagline for their adverts or anything like that. A wild claim indeed...

The Ford isn't necessarily cheaper to run when you factor in depreciation. The Golf has a history of better retained value. Even a paltry Â£1000 over the 3-year lifespan equates to FREE servicing on the Golf.

The fact is, you can make statistics show exactly what you want.


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## garyc

This one has been around before - and no one has yet come forward has having driven both.

As mentioned before, i will be amazed if the Ford is as cheap to _own_
as the VW. Never before have Ford residuals pipped Fords in any market segment.

If anyone seriously believes _now_ they will get a better residual in three years time for a 45K mile ST as a trade in, than they will a 45K GTI, _before_ the ST has really started shipping and before _any_
have come on the used market, then fine. I cannot see it.

That said I really like the idea of the bigger Volvo 5 pot and it certainly seems to have driver appeal. But lets face it you will spend most of your time in traffic staring at the interior, or on motorway cruising, when comfort and build will matter more than 0.5 sec here and there when driving 10/10ths.

Golf.


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## Widget

Golf.

Plus Revo

http://www.revotechnik.com/aboutRevo/news/fsi20.aspx


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## PhilJ

Despite certain claims, the Focus is bound to depreciate faster, over say a 3 year period, than the Golf. Look at what has happened to other performance offerings from both manufacturers in the past. However, there are some great deals on the Focus at the momentâ€¦

http://www.ukcarbroker.co.uk/fordfocus. ... FOCUS%20ST

â€¦and I guess by using a broker for a UK sourced Focus there could be as much as a Â£4k+ price difference between a similarly specâ€™d Golf. I doubt the Focus will depreciate Â£4k more that the Golf, so the Focus works out cheaper, assuming running costs are about the same over the same period.

I doubt there is much difference in terms of reliability.

The Focus has a smaller boot as the exhaust system intrudes in the boot well, making the Golf more practical. The Golf is also nicer inside, although the Focus has great seats.

Horses for courses really, but if you have a budget of say Â£16k, the Focus is awesome value for money and as such I think it will be very popular. This will probably be good for Focus residuals in the short term, but no doubt will lead to eventual oversupply, which will damage residuals.

Tuning potential for both will be good.


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## Carlos

When calculating cost of ownership and depreciation you need to use the actual price paid for the car, not its list price. I think based on list prices that the Golf will probably do better, but then its possible to get 3 grand off a Focus ST...

I ran a Mondeo diesel from new for 3 years and lost Â£7300 over that period, simply because I got a big discount.


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## deanpoli

interesting i see, this ukcarbroker website, has anyone actually bought a car off a website?

and how do you know if you'll even get the car once you've paid?

the ST-2 seems very tempting at Â£16.350 rather than paying Â£18.495.


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## Toshiba

jampott said:


> Toshiba said:
> 
> 
> 
> focus is better in every way a car can be better for me.
> 
> more power, faster, better handling, cheaper to run, and will not breakdown.
> 
> what else can you want?
> 
> However its you money, your choice.
> 
> 
> 
> Have you driven both then?
Click to expand...

I will have by next weekend - ive got a ST on friday.


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## Toshiba

jampott said:


> I can't imagine Ford promising "it will not breakdown" - come to think of it, it isn't the tagline for their adverts or anything like that. A wild claim indeed...
> 
> The Ford isn't necessarily cheaper to run when you factor in depreciation. The Golf has a history of better retained value. Even a paltry Â£1000 over the 3-year lifespan equates to FREE servicing on the Golf.
> 
> The fact is, you can make statistics show exactly what you want.


prove it :lol:


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## Toshiba

garyc said:


> Never before have Ford residuals pipped Fords in any market segment. .


Well i'd be amazed if it did, and i'd be even more amazed if it didnt.
:lol: :lol:


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## Wolfsburger

Toshiba said:


> jampott said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toshiba said:
> 
> 
> 
> focus is better in every way a car can be better for me.
> 
> more power, faster, better handling, cheaper to run, and will not breakdown.
> 
> what else can you want?
> 
> However its you money, your choice.
> 
> 
> 
> Have you driven both then?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I will have by next weekend - ive got a ST on friday.
Click to expand...

So, right now, at this very moment, you say that a car you have driven isn`t as rewarding, reliable or frugal as one you haven`t driven?

Of course, we can expect your Friday test drive to back up your predictions can`t we :?:


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## Toshiba

By your logic you cant either so whatâ€™s your point ?:lol:

Perhaps people buy the golf â€˜coz they have no imagination and itâ€™s easy to spell? 
Or maybe the people who buy them canâ€™t tell the difference between the marketing crap put out by VW and the reality of ownership? Or maybe they simple buy the same brand every time because they lack the intellectual capacity to try different things/brands?
Who know's?

FACT reviewers are saying the focus is better than the Golf
FACT the focus is more reliable than the golf
FACT it is predicted that the ford ST will be worth more than the golf
FACT the focus does out perform the Golf
FACT it does cost less
FACT it does out handle the golf

However you look at it, the fact is the golf is not as good as its main rivals.


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## Wolfsburger

Toshiba said:


> FACT reviewers are saying the focus is better than the Golf
> FACT the focus is more reliable than the golf
> FACT it is predicted that the ford ST will be worth more than the golf
> FACT the focus does out perform the Golf
> FACT it does cost less
> FACT it does out handle the golf


That`s a lot of_ facts_.

Now, a Focus ST3 costing 20095 is predicted to be worth 9500 in three years, a loss of 10595. 
A Golf GTI costing 20495 is predicted to be worth 10250 over the same period, a loss of 10245. Now when I did O-Level maths at school, a loss of 10245 is less than a loss of 10595. Go figure.

I see you`ve had 2 TT`s and have ordered a Mk2 (Do you know how that drives too?) does this mean that you lack the intellectual capacity to try different brands?


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## Toshiba

no the clues in the '-pres' I have two TT's, or i should say i have one and the wife has one too.

Im not the one making the predictions, its glasses. However im sure they have passed o level maths.

You still havent said, or given a logical reason why not the focus when its clearly better than the golf. I'd even accept the answer i rather have the Astra as its faster and has more HP, or that it looks better than both the Golf and Focus but to simply given no reasons shouts you have no reason.

Then you have the up coming Civic to think about,

PS i can still pull out of the MK2 when the details are released and get my money back. but the main reason is that for the first 2 years the car will be in short supply and will hold its money really well. I can then sell it and not lose tonnes of money.


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## sico

These websites that claim you can save XXXX on a new focus!

Dont beleive them!

IMHO the ST is a better car, following the fast Ford tradition with pride.

It will beat the VW in every respect IMHO

Every car mag and car program (apart from 5th gear which is a s*ite program) has rated it better than the golf.


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## Widget

sico said:


> (apart from 5th gear which is a s*ite program)


It has the best drivers though :?


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## garyc

Toshiba said:


> By your logic you cant either so whatâ€™s your point ?:lol:
> 
> Perhaps people buy the golf â€˜coz they have no imagination and itâ€™s easy to spell?
> Or maybe the people who buy them canâ€™t tell the difference between the marketing crap put out by VW and the reality of ownership? Or maybe they simple buy the same brand every time because they lack the intellectual capacity to try different things/brands?
> Who know's?
> 
> FACT reviewers are saying the focus is better than the Golf
> - COMPLETELY SUBJECTIVE therefore not a fact.
> 
> FACT the focus is more reliable than the golf
> - "If only everything in life was as reliable as a Focus" - sounds odd REALITY is that ST is too new to quanify reliability. Golf is already a proven car.
> 
> FACT it is predicted that the ford ST will be worth more than the golf
> - PURE CONJECTURE a prediction of something or an event that has not yet happened, should not be called 'fact'.
> 
> FACT the focus does out perform the Golf
> REAL WORLD PROBABILITY:On a track with the same driver the Focus appears to have some marginal advantages. On the road with different drivers this will most likely be negligable.
> 
> FACT it does cost less
> REALITY intitial purchase might be less, true cost of ownership factoringin residuals is as yet unproven for the ST.
> 
> FACT it does out handle the golf
> As for 'out-performs' above.
> 
> However you look at it, the fact is the golf is not as good as its main rivals.


A solid case for the ST then Tosh, Got your order in? :wink:

Whilst others may, in your view, lack imagination and subsequently buy a Golf, you certainly don't lack in your imagination of construction of facts. :wink:

_"I have made up my mind. Please don't confuse me with facts." Mark Twain_


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## sico

garyc said:


> Toshiba said:
> 
> 
> 
> By your logic you cant either so whatâ€™s your point ?:lol:
> 
> Perhaps people buy the golf â€˜coz they have no imagination and itâ€™s easy to spell?
> Or maybe the people who buy them canâ€™t tell the difference between the marketing crap put out by VW and the reality of ownership? Or maybe they simple buy the same brand every time because they lack the intellectual capacity to try different things/brands?
> Who know's?
> 
> FACT reviewers are saying the focus is better than the Golf
> - COMPLETELY SUBJECTIVE therefore not a fact.
> 
> FACT the focus is more reliable than the golf
> - "If only everything in life was as reliable as a Focus" - sounds odd REALITY is that ST is too new to quanify reliability. Golf is already a proven car.
> 
> FACT it is predicted that the ford ST will be worth more than the golf
> - PURE CONJECTURE a prediction of something or an event that has not yet happened, should not be called 'fact'.
> 
> FACT the focus does out perform the Golf
> REAL WORLD PROBABILITY:On a track with the same driver the Focus appears to have some marginal advantages. On the road with different drivers this will most likely be negligable.
> 
> FACT it does cost less
> REALITY intitial purchase might be less, true cost of ownership factoringin residuals is as yet unproven for the ST.
> 
> FACT it does out handle the golf
> As for 'out-performs' above.
> 
> However you look at it, the fact is the golf is not as good as its main rivals.
> 
> 
> 
> A solid case for the ST then Tosh, Got your order in? :wink:
> 
> Whilst others may, in your view, lack imagination and subsequently buy a Golf, you certainly don't lack in your imagination of construction of facts. :wink:
> 
> _"I have made up my mind. Please don't confuse me with facts." Gary C_
Click to expand...

FACT the majoirty of reviewers are saying the focus is better than the Golf 
- This is a fact.

FACT the focus is more reliable than the golf
- "If only everything in life was as reliable as a Focus" - sounds odd REALITY is that ST is too new to quanify reliability. Golf is already a proven car.

Rubbish! The golf GTI is only slightly older than the ST so how can this be? However the normal Focus and Golf have been out for a while, and as far as "things gone wrong" are concerned the Focus has less than the Golf. Therefore it is true that the Focus is (in the eyes of the motor industry) more reliable than the Golf"

VW has a quality reputation however thats all, the facts to back this up are missing. Please try to find them if you disagree. Perception thats all!

FACT it is predicted that the ford ST will be worth more than the golf
- PURE CONJECTURE a prediction of something or an event that has not yet happened, should not be called 'fact'.

I agree with this.

FACT the focus does out perform the Golf
REAL WORLD PROBABILITY:On a track with the same driver the Focus appears to have some marginal advantages. On the road with different drivers this will most likely be negligable.

Marginal yes, maybe 1 or 2 seconds however thats quite a big gap in the motor sport world.
The ST will out accelerate a 911 and keep up with a TVR 350 from 50-70 (Autoexpress December issue).

FACT it does cost less
REALITY intitial purchase might be less, true cost of ownership factoringin residuals is as yet unproven for the ST.

I agree with this same applys for the VW though.

_"I have made up my mind. Please don't confuse me with facts." Gary C_


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## garyc

sico said:


> garyc said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toshiba said:
> 
> 
> 
> By your logic you cant either so whatâ€™s your point ?:lol:
> 
> Perhaps people buy the golf â€˜coz they have no imagination and itâ€™s easy to spell?
> Or maybe the people who buy them canâ€™t tell the difference between the marketing crap put out by VW and the reality of ownership? Or maybe they simple buy the same brand every time because they lack the intellectual capacity to try different things/brands?
> Who know's?
> 
> FACT reviewers are saying the focus is better than the Golf
> - COMPLETELY SUBJECTIVE therefore not a fact.
> 
> FACT the focus is more reliable than the golf
> - "If only everything in life was as reliable as a Focus" - sounds odd REALITY is that ST is too new to quanify reliability. Golf is already a proven car.
> 
> FACT it is predicted that the ford ST will be worth more than the golf
> - PURE CONJECTURE a prediction of something or an event that has not yet happened, should not be called 'fact'.
> 
> FACT the focus does out perform the Golf
> REAL WORLD PROBABILITY:On a track with the same driver the Focus appears to have some marginal advantages. On the road with different drivers this will most likely be negligable.
> 
> FACT it does cost less
> REALITY intitial purchase might be less, true cost of ownership factoringin residuals is as yet unproven for the ST.
> 
> FACT it does out handle the golf
> As for 'out-performs' above.
> 
> However you look at it, the fact is the golf is not as good as its main rivals.
> 
> 
> 
> A solid case for the ST then Tosh, Got your order in? :wink:
> 
> Whilst others may, in your view, lack imagination and subsequently buy a Golf, you certainly don't lack in your imagination of construction of facts. :wink:
> 
> _"I have made up my mind. Please don't confuse me with facts." Gary C_
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> FACT the majoirty of reviewers are saying the focus is better than the Golf
> - This is a fact.
> 
> It's not a fact. As many reviews I have read say the Golf is a _better _car to own or as good _overall_ as say that the Focus is a _better_ car purely to drive.
> 
> FACT the focus is more reliable than the golf
> - "If only everything in life was as reliable as a Focus" - sounds odd REALITY is that ST is too new to quanify reliability. Golf is already a proven car.
> 
> Rubbish! The golf GTI is only slightly older than the ST so how can this be? However the normal Focus and Golf have been out for a while, and as far as "things gone wrong" are concerned the Focus has less than the Golf. Therefore it is true that the Focus is (in the eyes of the motor industry) more reliable than the Golf"
> 
> The Golf GTi has been shipping for over a year (Jan 05 in UK) with more than 100K examples coming off the lines. The Focus ST has only just started shipping with approx 3K units so far been made since launch. Only slightly older by 90,000 then... The 'normal' Golf V has also been shipping far longer than the new Focus and with far greater volumes as it is a world car for VW.
> 
> VW has a quality reputation however thats all, the facts to back this up are missing. Please try to find them if you disagree. Perception thats all!
> 
> FACT it is predicted that the ford ST will be worth more than the golf
> - PURE CONJECTURE a prediction of something or an event that has not yet happened, should not be called 'fact'.
> 
> I agree with this.
> 
> FACT the focus does out perform the Golf
> REAL WORLD PROBABILITY:On a track with the same driver the Focus appears to have some marginal advantages. On the road with different drivers this will most likely be negligable.
> 
> Marginal yes, maybe 1 or 2 seconds however thats quite a big gap in the motor sport world.
> The ST will out accelerate a 911 and keep up with a TVR 350 from 50-70 (Autoexpress December issue).
> 
> Oh come on! This will never happen beyond on the road and if a 911 or TVR driver tries just _half_ as hard as an ST driver, then the ST will simply go backwards. BTW did i tell you my 330cd will out accelerate an F430? :wink:
> 
> FACT it does cost less
> REALITY intitial purchase might be less, true cost of ownership factoring in residuals is as yet unproven for the ST.
> 
> I agree with this same applys for the VW though.
> 
> Really? If you do a quick check on used Golf V Gtis for sale in this country, you will find 200 for sale on VW site -all 05 and priced between Â£18.5K and Â£25K depending on spec. That is a solid used value. Demand is very high for GTis. Of course there is a dealer margin on trade in, but not excessive in the current car marketplace. I cannot find one single Focus ST for sale.
> 
> _"I have made up my facts. Please don't confuse my mind." Sico_
Click to expand...


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## Widget

Fuc*ing Excellent :lol:


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## Nimbus

Toshiba said:


> PS i can still pull out of the MK2 when the details are released and get my money back. but the main reason is that for the first 2 years the car will be in short supply and will hold its money really well. I can then sell it and not lose tonnes of money.


Hmm, I wonder how many of those who pre-ordered a Cayman thought that...

Why should the mk2 TT be in short supply ?

If Audi think it will sell well I would think they will make sure there is plenty of supply...

Oh and dont kid yourself that theykeep it deliberately short to keep the 2nd hand market up... anyone say 150TTR, 180fwd, etc etc...


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## Atlantis

I've just ordered a GTi and picked it over the ST for one reason that hasn't been mentioned - CO2 emissions. The Golf is 190 gm/km, the ST is 220. Makes a big difference to company car tax - approx Â£450 a year extra for a 40% tax payer.


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## Toshiba

garyc said:


> Toshiba said:
> 
> 
> 
> By your logic you cant either so whatâ€™s your point ?:lol:
> 
> Perhaps people buy the golf â€˜coz they have no imagination and itâ€™s easy to spell?
> Or maybe the people who buy them canâ€™t tell the difference between the marketing crap put out by VW and the reality of ownership? Or maybe they simple buy the same brand every time because they lack the intellectual capacity to try different things/brands?
> Who know's?
> 
> FACT reviewers are saying the focus is better than the Golf
> - COMPLETELY SUBJECTIVE therefore not a fact.
> 
> FACT the focus is more reliable than the golf
> - "If only everything in life was as reliable as a Focus" - sounds odd REALITY is that ST is too new to quanify reliability. Golf is already a proven car.
> 
> FACT it is predicted that the ford ST will be worth more than the golf
> - PURE CONJECTURE a prediction of something or an event that has not yet happened, should not be called 'fact'.
> 
> FACT the focus does out perform the Golf
> REAL WORLD PROBABILITY:On a track with the same driver the Focus appears to have some marginal advantages. On the road with different drivers this will most likely be negligable.
> 
> FACT it does cost less
> REALITY intitial purchase might be less, true cost of ownership factoringin residuals is as yet unproven for the ST.
> 
> FACT it does out handle the golf
> As for 'out-performs' above.
> 
> However you look at it, the fact is the golf is not as good as its main rivals.
> 
> 
> 
> A solid case for the ST then Tosh, Got your order in? :wink:
> 
> Whilst others may, in your view, lack imagination and subsequently buy a Golf, you certainly don't lack in your imagination of construction of facts. :wink:
> 
> _"I have made up my mind. Please don't confuse me with facts." Mark Twain_
Click to expand...

No it is a fact, not subjective. More magazines are sayings its better, Auto Express, What Car, Drive all say go for the focus. Topgear said Focus over Golf too and the ST out performed the GTI on the test track â€" I donâ€™t watch 5th Gear so i canâ€™t say either way. So letâ€™s add up. Iâ€™ll therefore say 4/5 would recommend the focus as I donâ€™t know about 5th Gear? However if you think the GTI is better does that mean they are all wrong and therefore not fact? No. Itâ€™s a fact that they have come down on the side of the Focus over the Golf.

Focus is the most reliable car two year running. WTF has trim level got to do with it?

If you think VWs are good cars maybe you should look at the JD power and other surveys - they are in the bottom third â€" fact. Let me guess though, these arenâ€™t a true reflection.

It is a fact that glasses are predicting the ST will hold more. if it does, it does. if it doesnâ€™t, its still a fact that, thatâ€™s what they are saying - follow the link

If the focus was 2 seconds slower than the golf would we be saying the focus is faster in the real world? No. Golf is slower 0-60, and 30-70. Itâ€™s slower round the TG test track how many slower examples do you need? Maybe the golfs got a fast mirror heater?

But I do have a solution for the performance woes of the Golf:-
Maybe if i didnâ€™t order a CD player, had only half a tank of petrol, removed the spare, dropped out the rear seats, started the car first and then took the battery out, removed the rear hatch and both rear doors, then had a really large dump and had only my boxers on i would get a few more MPG and it would also knock a couple of seconds off the 0-60 time. That way I could keep up with the ST? :lol:

It does cost less look at the list price - if you get a discount on the ST this only makes it even better value and a better return over 3 years. However we wont know for 3 years.

ST does out handle the golf - maybe if i drove a F1 car and Hill drove a TT, the TT would out perform a F1 car? But we are talking about the abilities of the car not the driversâ€¦..Iâ€™d be in the crash barrier on the first corner regardless.

The facts are not my fact; i have said where they have come from. You have simple disagreed.

Do you have a Golf by any chance? :lol: 
Why are VW owners not able to accept that other products are better? :evil:

Have i ordered one? No. But that doesnâ€™t mean itâ€™s better or worse than ANY other car. I donâ€™t see any argument here to buy a GTI over the ST and you people seem unable to present a logical and clear argument to back your prejudice. Maybe the badge is the wrong colour? :roll:

PS just seen the tax one, and that is a good reason to have a Golf over the ST - but im willing to see logic where it would appear others are not. Still doesnt make it a better car, only cheaper to run.


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## Toshiba

Nimbus said:


> Toshiba said:
> 
> 
> 
> PS i can still pull out of the MK2 when the details are released and get my money back. but the main reason is that for the first 2 years the car will be in short supply and will hold its money really well. I can then sell it and not lose tonnes of money.
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm, I wonder how many of those who pre-ordered a Cayman thought that...
> 
> Why should the mk2 TT be in short supply ?
> 
> If Audi think it will sell well I would think they will make sure there is plenty of supply...
> 
> Oh and dont kid yourself that theykeep it deliberately short to keep the 2nd hand market up... anyone say 150TTR, 180fwd, etc etc...
Click to expand...

The TT held its money for 3 years plus. Im not sure the 150TTR or 180FWD, or the V6 or the new QS made a diff to the price. Until the fleets dump the cars on the market models 'normally' hold their money well (3years). Car prices are based on whats in demand at the time, more the demand - more the prices.

If i lose, i lose. I can afford it so im not really that bothered but it would be a bonus.


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## Nimbus

Toshiba said:


> Nimbus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toshiba said:
> 
> 
> 
> PS i can still pull out of the MK2 when the details are released and get my money back. but the main reason is that for the first 2 years the car will be in short supply and will hold its money really well. I can then sell it and not lose tonnes of money.
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm, I wonder how many of those who pre-ordered a Cayman thought that...
> 
> Why should the mk2 TT be in short supply ?
> 
> If Audi think it will sell well I would think they will make sure there is plenty of supply...
> 
> Oh and dont kid yourself that theykeep it deliberately short to keep the 2nd hand market up... anyone say 150TTR, 180fwd, etc etc...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The TT held its money for 3 years plus. Im not sure the 150TTR or 180FWD, or the V6 or the new QS made a diff to the price. Until the fleets dump the cars on the market models 'normally' hold their money well (3years). Car prices are based on whats in demand at the time, more the demand - more the prices.
> 
> If i lose, i lose. I can afford it so im not really that bothered but it would be a bonus.
Click to expand...

The TT was something entirely 'new' when it was released, this time round it wont be....

In fact looking at the various photoshops and rubbish posted by Iceman or whatever his name is this week, I'd say its going to be very similiar...

But like you say, you can afford it  No one in their right mind buys a car to make money...

My biggest dilemma when it comes out is do I get a mk2, or a 3 / 4 year old Porsche 996  Should be about the same price... :roll:


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## ag

This thread is hilarious.

Why anyone should try and use any kind of intelligent logic to justify the purchase of either of these cars is beyond me.

They are both pointless anachronisms with absolutely no reason to exist, except to give pleasure to the owner. As such if the car gives you pleasure then buy it, if it doesn't then don't. Trying to quantify the emotional elements of car purchasing is like sodomising a fly - difficult to do and not very rewarding so therefore ultimately pointless.

For some simply having a VW badge will be enough to make them happy, for other having paintwork that fries onlookers' eyes will turn them on.

Now for my opinion.......
I doubt very much whether the Ford is any worse built or less reliable than the Golf. The opposite is probably true. The thrummy 5cyl engine sounds great and overall it looks good. As a short term purchase it would make sound financial sense, longer term it won't. In the same way that a used Volvo T5 is worth peanuts, the first owner of a new car can probably afford the petrol and tyres, the fourth or fifth one can't. This is where the Golf wins, its lower running costs and more prestige image means it will find favour with slightly more moneyed used buyers after 3 years and will retain some value whilst the Focus falls off a cliff in the same way that nearly all performance versions of family cars do, especially those by "non-prestige" manufacturers.


----------



## Toshiba

Nimbus said:


> The TT was something entirely 'new' when it was released, this time round it wont be....
> 
> In fact looking at the various photoshops and rubbish posted by Iceman or whatever his name is this week, I'd say its going to be very similiar...
> 
> But like you say, you can afford it  No one in their right mind buys a car to make money...
> 
> My biggest dilemma when it comes out is do I get a mk2, or a 3 / 4 year old Porsche 996  Should be about the same price... :roll:


You might be right, and the porsche is a delemma. The main reason i get new cars is for the trouble free motoring backed by a manufactures warranty. I like the new caymans but i just think its too much to spend on a car.


----------



## sico

ag said:


> This thread is hilarious.
> 
> Why anyone should try and use any kind of intelligent logic to justify the purchase of either of these cars is beyond me.
> 
> They are both pointless anachronisms with absolutely no reason to exist, except to give pleasure to the owner. As such if the car gives you pleasure then buy it, if it doesn't then don't. Trying to quantify the emotional elements of car purchasing is like sodomising a fly - difficult to do and not very rewarding so therefore ultimately pointless.
> 
> For some simply having a VW badge will be enough to make them happy, for other having paintwork that fries onlookers' eyes will turn them on.
> 
> Now for my opinion.......
> I doubt very much whether the Ford is any worse built or less reliable than the Golf. The opposite is probably true. The thrummy 5cyl engine sounds great and overall it looks good. As a short term purchase it would make sound financial sense, longer term it won't. In the same way that a used Volvo T5 is worth peanuts, the first owner of a new car can probably afford the petrol and tyres, the fourth or fifth one can't. This is where the Golf wins, its lower running costs and more prestige image means it will find favour with slightly more moneyed used buyers after 3 years and will retain some value whilst the Focus falls off a cliff in the same way that nearly all performance versions of family cars do, especially those by "non-prestige" manufacturers.


Golf has lower running costs?

Volvo T5 comparission, why?

VW prestige?

I think your find its more to do with supply and demand more than anything else.

If the market is flooded with Golfs then they will be worth less and visa versa.

Lets not forget the Civc is very good at holding its values and its definatley not prestige.

Its also segment driven hatch back size cars hold the most money these days whilst big execs like 7 series drop in price, this is in some respect due to running costs and again, supply and demand (lack of demand).

I give up.....


----------



## deanpoli

i think its difficult to decide whether the which car will hold more value after 3 three years, the ST is a performance hatch and not every body will own one, just like the focus RS, will defiantly hold its value more as it's not a standard model then again i spose the same apply's to the GTi.

the whole point of this thread is to establish which is the better car overall and if it was your money what car would you buy?

for Â£20.000 would one of these two cars be a worthy investment of money or would it be spent better on another car for the same price?


----------



## Toshiba

Without being rude i think you need to make your own mind up which car to buy with your 20k and dont buy one based on what some forum says.

However i do think most people did say one way or the other

Focus for me.

Others to think about Astra VRX, comes with better looks than both the Focus and golf. Has a cracking engine even if it does struggle to put it all down on the road. New Civic looks good and is worth a thought IMO.


----------



## ag

sico said:


> ag said:
> 
> 
> 
> This thread is hilarious.
> 
> Why anyone should try and use any kind of intelligent logic to justify the purchase of either of these cars is beyond me.
> 
> They are both pointless anachronisms with absolutely no reason to exist, except to give pleasure to the owner. As such if the car gives you pleasure then buy it, if it doesn't then don't. Trying to quantify the emotional elements of car purchasing is like sodomising a fly - difficult to do and not very rewarding so therefore ultimately pointless.
> 
> For some simply having a VW badge will be enough to make them happy, for other having paintwork that fries onlookers' eyes will turn them on.
> 
> Now for my opinion.......
> I doubt very much whether the Ford is any worse built or less reliable than the Golf. The opposite is probably true. The thrummy 5cyl engine sounds great and overall it looks good. As a short term purchase it would make sound financial sense, longer term it won't. In the same way that a used Volvo T5 is worth peanuts, the first owner of a new car can probably afford the petrol and tyres, the fourth or fifth one can't. This is where the Golf wins, its lower running costs and more prestige image means it will find favour with slightly more moneyed used buyers after 3 years and will retain some value whilst the Focus falls off a cliff in the same way that nearly all performance versions of family cars do, especially those by "non-prestige" manufacturers.
> 
> 
> 
> Golf has lower running costs?
> Focus Average MPG 30.4 Golf 34.9
> Focus Service cost over 3 yrs Â£1308 Golf Â£869
> 
> Volvo T5 comparission, why?
> Well built entertaining version of a standard family car that drinks fuel and ruins tyre resulting in poor residuals after 3 yrs when compared with other models in the same range.
> 
> VW prestige?
> For many people, and particularly in the perceptions of used car buyers, most definately yes.
> 
> I think your find its more to do with supply and demand more than anything else.
> If the market is flooded with Golfs then they will be worth less and visa versa.
> Indeed so, that is why if they are already discounting the Focus they are already in a position of over supply. Admittedly the exceptional deals quoted are imported vehicles but using WHATCAR as a guide, they are already quoting a Â£1k target discount on a car that has only just been released, the Golf is still at List!
> 
> Lets not forget the Civc is very good at holding its values and its definatley not prestige.
> Hondas are well conceived and well built motor cars. Very few, relative to Ford or Vauxhall, or even VW are sold to fleets, especially not the performance derivatives. Supply to the uk market is controlled, as opposed to Ford's policy of pile 'em high and sell 'em cheap. This results in the market not being flooded and therefore in better residuals. It does not, however, necessarily result in a better car.
> 
> 
> Its also segment driven hatch back size cars hold the most money these days whilst big execs like 7 series drop in price, this is in some respect due to running costs and again, supply and demand (lack of demand).
> True
> I give up.....
Click to expand...

History can only be a guide, but XR3s etc etc blah blah blah and Golf GTis of similar eras were always in the same situation as now. The Golf was more expensive and was no quicker or better handling, just a little more robust, a little less entertaining and a little cheaper to run. After 5 years you couldn't give the Ford away and the Golf was still commanding premium prices. Today's story will be no different. Don't use the Cosworth or Focus RS values as a guide, they were released in limited volumes and not generally bought by fleets.

As I originally pointed out the Focus is certainly a great car and its residuals will almost certainly be compensated for by the discounts available, so try them both and just buy the one you prefer.


----------



## PhilJ

sico said:


> These websites that claim you can save XXXX on a new focus!
> 
> Dont beleive them!


Why? :? This weeks Autocar refer to another supplier (Gr8cardeal.co.uk) of UK sourced Focus STs for Â£15078.



deanpoli said:


> the whole point of this thread is to establish which is the better car overall and if it was your money what car would you buy?
> 
> for Â£20.000 would one of these two cars be a worthy investment of money or would it be spent better on another car for the same price?


Impossible to answer as way too subjective. Fair to say both are very good hot hatches. You should drive both and make you own mind up.

Personally though I wouldn't spend Â£20k on a Focus, but at Â£15k to Â£17k I think its a bargain and offers awesome performance and lots of character.


----------



## sico

I like the post above that says "more robust" since when were VW robust mate!
Dont forget you have a 1.8T engine that was used in VW's!

Good old perceptions and ignorance, if only he could see the industry figures!

Anyway this would be my choice:

1,ST
2,VXR
3,Golf

I dont suffer from perceptions anymore - when I used perception I purchased an Audi!

Robust, relaible and good dealers- right!? :lol:


----------



## Kell

sico said:


> I like the post above that says "more robust" since when were VW robust mate!
> Dont forget you have a 1.8T engine that was used in VW's!
> 
> Good old perceptions and ignorance, if only he could see the industry figures!
> 
> Anyway this would be my choice:
> 
> 1,ST
> 2,VXR
> 3,Golf
> 
> I dont suffer from perceptions anymore - when I used perception I purchased an Audi!
> 
> Robust, relaible and good dealers- right!? :lol:


Not sure he is talking about modern cars, but older ones.

And I'd agree. How many Mk1 and MK11 Golfs do you see still knocking about compared to Escorts from the same era?

In fact, I can't remember the last time I saw an Escort of any description.

However, that aside, I'm not sure it applies to the two in question.


----------



## ag

sico said:


> I like the post above that says "more robust" since when were VW robust mate!
> Dont forget you have a 1.8T engine that was used in VW's!
> 
> Good old perceptions and ignorance, if only he could see the industry figures!
> 
> Anyway this would be my choice:
> 
> 1,ST
> 2,VXR
> 3,Golf
> 
> I dont suffer from perceptions anymore - when I used perception I purchased an Audi!
> 
> Robust, relaible and good dealers- right!? :lol:


Place any 5yr old ford next to any 5yr old VW. The difference in general wear and tear to the vehicles will be obvious. The design life of a Ford is approx. 4 years. They perform very well in all the trade surveys because they have tight quality control over their components. VW seem to lack this attention to some details, particularly where some electrical components are concerned, but the longevity of the mechanicals is in a different league to Ford. I'd rather change a dashpod than a gearbox, and unfortunately I've been in that position.You mention the 1.8T engine. There were problems with coil packs with some vintages of VW Group petrol engines, but mechanical problems are few and far between on unmodified and unmolested engines. The TT is a poor example of what the VW Group is capable of producing in terms of breakdowns, the Focus is probably the best that Ford can do. Having had both Fords and Vauxhalls on my fleet, I still run a vauxhall for one of my employees, I would't purchase either through choice. Same goes for Mercs which are currently appalling for frequent minor problems.


----------



## Toshiba

What are you on about, the whole ford range is solid, look at the JD Power/Top gear tables.

passat lower than mondeo,
golf lower than focus
MPV are all made by the same people with a company badge slapped on the back at the end of the line
polo and fiesta - i cant remember but i think they are on par or within a place or two from each other.

This tread has become pointless. As some people seem to be pro one manufacture. some people are however objective.

Vauxhall i think are the manufacture on the move. The new design seem really good and they look to be better quality than before They have some good VXR models too.

Its only german law that is stopping vw been taken over by either GM or Ford.


----------



## scavenger

Toshiba said:


> Its only german law that is stopping vw been taken over by either GM or Ford.


 :lol: :lol: :lol:

Yeah right, that and the fact that GM may file for Chapter 11 this year and Ford's stock is worthless.


----------



## che6mw

scavenger said:


> Toshiba said:
> 
> 
> 
> Its only german law that is stopping vw been taken over by either GM or Ford.
> 
> 
> 
> :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> Yeah right, that and the fact that GM may file for Chapter 11 this year and Ford's stock is worthless.
Click to expand...

True. But Toyota will soon rule the world


----------



## garyc

scavenger said:


> Toshiba said:
> 
> 
> 
> Its only german law that is stopping vw been taken over by either GM or Ford.
> 
> 
> 
> :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> Yeah right, that and the fact that GM may file for Chapter 11 this year and Ford's stock is worthless.
Click to expand...

And just possibly the 25% stake now held in VW by Porsche, ensuring that they can't be taken over by anyone else. :roll:


----------



## che6mw

garyc said:


> scavenger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toshiba said:
> 
> 
> 
> Its only german law that is stopping vw been taken over by either GM or Ford.
> 
> 
> 
> :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> Yeah right, that and the fact that GM may file for Chapter 11 this year and Ford's stock is worthless.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And just possibly the 25% stake now held in VW by Porsche, ensuring that they can't be taken over by anyone else. :roll:
Click to expand...

... except Toyota


----------



## garyc

che6mw said:


> garyc said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> scavenger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toshiba said:
> 
> 
> 
> Its only german law that is stopping vw been taken over by either GM or Ford.
> 
> 
> 
> :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> Yeah right, that and the fact that GM may file for Chapter 11 this year and Ford's stock is worthless.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And just possibly the 25% stake now held in VW by Porsche, ensuring that they can't be taken over by anyone else. :roll:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ... except Toyota
Click to expand...

No not even by Toyota. It was a brilliant move by Porsche, who are not the most profitable car manufacturer in the world for nothing:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/cars/story/0,15383,1578254,00.html#article_continue


----------



## Toshiba

scavenger said:


> Toshiba said:
> 
> 
> 
> Its only german law that is stopping vw been taken over by either GM or Ford.
> 
> 
> 
> :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> Yeah right, that and the fact that GM may file for Chapter 11 this year and Ford's stock is worthless.
Click to expand...

Laugh all you want its true. Its going to the EU courts with regards this peice of German law. You seem to have forgotten VW are also broke - bailed out by another german company![smiley=end.gif]

Iâ€™m sure the Toyota comment is, or will come true soon. They are reliable, with no on going costs to fix the cars post production.

The whole problem is cars cost too much to make, they are very complex and cost a fortune to develop. These costs canâ€™t be passed on as we are unwilling to pay for it. Result, i think that obvious. 
Is any of the car companies doing well? - only the Japanese ones.

Hopefully the french will be the first to fall - no saxo/c2 anymore :lol:


----------



## garyc

Toshiba said:


> scavenger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toshiba said:
> 
> 
> 
> Its only german law that is stopping vw been taken over by either GM or Ford.
> 
> 
> 
> :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> Yeah right, that and the fact that GM may file for Chapter 11 this year and Ford's stock is worthless.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Laugh all you want its true. Its going to the EU courts with regards this peice of German law. You seem to have forgotten VW are also broke - bailed out by another german company![smiley=end.gif]
> 
> Iâ€™m sure the Toyota comment is, or will come true soon. They are reliable, with no on going costs to fix the cars post production.
> 
> The whole problem is cars cost too much to make, they are very complex and cost a fortune to develop. These costs canâ€™t be passed on as we are unwilling to pay for it. Result, i think that obvious.
> Is any of the car companies doing well? - only the Japanese ones.
> 
> Hopefully the french will be the first to fall - no saxo/c2 anymore :lol:
Click to expand...

The legal move you refer to is to stop anyone owning more than 20% of a German company without having to make a bid. The cleverness of Porsche is that with their 20% (not 25% as I originally claimed) and the Saxony Govt similar stake, they can prevent any raiders no matter how the stakeholder law case pans out.

The 3bn euros injection safeguards VW for a while...


----------



## scavenger

Toshiba said:


> Laugh all you want its true.


That its German law that is stopping VW been taken over by either GM or Ford? That's cock mate :roll:

Toyota will become the world's number one car manufacturer this year and we will all be forced to drive Pruis's


----------



## Carlos

Toshiba said:


> This tread has become pointless. As some people seem to be pro one manufacture. some people are however objective.


While we're on about tread - does anyone know which tyres these cars come fitted with?

And regarding the point above, shouldn't it read "As some people seem to be pro one manufacturer. some people are however objective (and happen to like the Ford)"?


----------



## Toshiba

Carlos said:


> "As some people seem to be pro one manufacturer. some people are however objective (and happen to like the Ford)"?


So much so, that i own two TT's and no fords :lol:


----------



## CapTT

Carlos said:


> While we're on about tread - does anyone know which tyres these cars come fitted with?


I`ve driven ST`s with Continentals and Michelins , sorry I mean BF Goodrichs , on. However all the Golfs I`ve driven including the new R32 had Mich...BF Goodrichs.


----------



## Wolfsburger

Toshiba said:


> Its only german law that is stopping vw been taken over by either GM or Ford.


Ha Ha Ha....................that`s the funniest thing I`ve read today!

How was the Focus ST test drive today Toshiba?


----------



## sico

ag said:


> sico said:
> 
> 
> 
> I like the post above that says "more robust" since when were VW robust mate!
> Dont forget you have a 1.8T engine that was used in VW's!
> 
> Good old perceptions and ignorance, if only he could see the industry figures!
> 
> Anyway this would be my choice:
> 
> 1,ST
> 2,VXR
> 3,Golf
> 
> I dont suffer from perceptions anymore - when I used perception I purchased an Audi!
> 
> Robust, relaible and good dealers- right!? :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> Place any 5yr old ford next to any 5yr old VW. The difference in general wear and tear to the vehicles will be obvious. The design life of a Ford is approx. 4 years. They perform very well in all the trade surveys because they have tight quality control over their components. VW seem to lack this attention to some details, particularly where some electrical components are concerned, but the longevity of the mechanicals is in a different league to Ford. I'd rather change a dashpod than a gearbox, and unfortunately I've been in that position.You mention the 1.8T engine. There were problems with coil packs with some vintages of VW Group petrol engines, but mechanical problems are few and far between on unmodified and unmolested engines. The TT is a poor example of what the VW Group is capable of producing in terms of breakdowns, the Focus is probably the best that Ford can do. Having had both Fords and Vauxhalls on my fleet, I still run a vauxhall for one of my employees, I would't purchase either through choice. Same goes for Mercs which are currently appalling for frequent minor problems.
Click to expand...

Absolute rubbish based completley on your perception, not even worth entertaining with a reply.

"The design life of a Ford is approx. 4 years"

Where did you get that from, this conversation is based on some perception but not on made up facts. How old are you 10?

If you were in the industry you would know that TGW "things gone wrong" are much higher than VW and Ford is now just under Toyota.

The winner of the last "German" TUV award was the old Ford Focus, the TUV award is the German quality award - look it up.

What absoulte tosh you write.


----------



## Toshiba

Wolfsburger said:


> Toshiba said:
> 
> 
> 
> Its only german law that is stopping vw been taken over by either GM or Ford.
> 
> 
> 
> Ha Ha Ha....................that`s the funniest thing I`ve read today!
> 
> How was the Focus ST test drive today Toshiba?
Click to expand...

I was busy getting messed about by VAG's fantastic customer service/ dealership network again and their total lack of quality in the work they produce.

Car has now been sold.


----------



## garyc

So 'No' you didn't actually drive the car that is superior in every aspect of ownership. :wink:


----------



## Toshiba

I never mentioned ownership.

If i thought that i'd have one.  
(unless thats my new car) :roll:


----------



## garyc

This really has been an interesting thread, until you realise that it is 6 pages long about the merits, superior or otherwise, of a car that no one on thread has even driven, let alone owned. :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Toshiba

it all comes down to what floats ur boat the rest is [smiley=toilet.gif]


----------



## Wolfsburger

Toshiba said:


> I was busy getting messed about by VAG's fantastic customer service/ dealership network again and their total lack of quality in the work they produce.
> 
> Car has now been sold.


And guess what I bought..... yep, in a total admission of having an intellectual capacity of being unable of trying something new (I quoted it first so it must be true) I`ve bought another TT............................


----------



## Toshiba

I see now why homer is your aviator. Rather apt!

Maybe someday you will be able to get one too. 
[smiley=baby.gif]


----------



## stephengreen

I'm looking to change the wife's mini cooper S. A bigger car is needed so test drove both the golf and focus back to back last week. The golf first. This has to be one of the easiest cars to drive quickly i have ever driven. I was instantly comfortable and could therefore concentrate on the driving. The engine is so smooth powerful but could do with a bit more grunt. The turn in, grip, and handling were superb, better than the TT 225 without question in my mind. The interior is very good and felt special. The styling is understated bordering on bland, IMO. Overall a very impressive car. 
On to the focus. Wow! electric orange paint, aggressive body kit, round one to the ford! Open the door my heart sank, the interior bordering on cheap. The seat wont go low enough, struggled to find a comfy driving position. The engine is very strong, not as free revving as the golf but sounds wonderful. Didn't turn in as well as golf but as much grip and more low down pull with a little more grunt. Conclusion? I have no doubt that down any given B road i would be quicker in the Golf. Swop me for a more competent driver I'm not so sure it would. For me personally, as a direct replacement for a "fun" car ala mini, the focus's fun looks 3K cheaper price (when you spec the golf the same) just shade the golf but only just. Another factor in my case is dealers. Lincoln Ford have in the past been very competent. Dixon's on the other hand haven't. It has been one of the closest calls between two cars i have ever had to choose between. If the Golf had the 220 bhp engine of the DTM a4 it would have been impossible to choose. But choose i have and a deposit has gone down on the ford. ST2. rear park sensors. climate control. and of course electric orange "I'm a ST" orange.


----------



## Toshiba

Im sure you've made the right choose - orange though, you show off. :lol:


----------



## nellsey

I have been looking at the ST. 
The leather recaro seats are the dogs danglies. They are so comfortable, its worth buying the car just for that!

Do like it and have been tempted but I am to long in the tooth for the orange.


----------



## stephengreen

nellsey said:


> I have been looking at the ST.
> The leather recaro seats are the dogs danglies. They are so comfortable, its worth buying the car just for that!
> 
> Do like it and have been tempted but I am to long in the tooth for the orange.


 If you have leather you only get four seats. If orange isn't your thing then performance blue is probably the next colour to consider as it, like orange, is only available on the ST.


----------



## Toshiba

I like the blue - but orange is nice.


----------



## Rob.gti

I like mine


----------



## Rob.gti

BTW, when the Focus ST first came out and Autoexpress tested it against the GTI, they concluded that there really was nothing in it between which one was best. They finally gave the gong to the Focus purely because it was cheaper.

For me, I would never own a Ford again. Plus having a standard Ford Focus on hire for a week was enough to put me off. Trim came away from windscreen, ashtray didnt open, and the interior light kept flickering! Where as my GTI hasnt missed a beat since I took delivery last June.


----------



## Toshiba

I'm sure other people will have had the same experience you got with the focus on the VW too. As long as you're happy so be it.

Also how do people know you're not bias as you have a VW and want to 'big up' the Gti while and putting a downer on the ST????


----------



## bilbos

It would have to be the GTI every time. Even if I had driven both of them back to back and the Focus was more capable on the road, I would choose the GTI. Reason.....because it is a FORD.

Am I a badge snob......most definitely.


----------



## Toshiba

So why you got a VW then?

Says a lot when you would rather have a badge than a better car. :?


----------



## bilbos

IMO VW are a better marque than Ford.

I have owned both Ford's and VW's in the past and the whilst the VW's rarely went wrong the Ford's were a POS. These experiences tend to leave a mark on your memory when considering new cars.


----------



## Toshiba

bilbos said:


> IMO VW are a better marque than Ford.
> 
> I have owned both Ford's and VW's in the past and the whilst the VW's rarely went wrong the Ford's were a POS. These experiences tend to leave a mark on your memory when considering new cars.


Im not agreeing or disagree with the who the 'better marque' I too have owned both marques, however cars change with each generation and with it, the qualities and virtues of each change too. The VW build quality is nothing like what it used to be and VW are indeed in the bottom half of the which type reports everytime when it comes to reliability. The New VW handle much better than the MKIV which lets face it was like a boat so its couldnt have been worse.

Im simply saying i'd not buy a car simply for the badge.

I do know what you mean about the memory thing, my parents have a bad experience twice with VWs and will not buy a car carring the badge ever again, so im kinda understanding your point.


----------



## sico

He he

leave it Toshiba - ignorance is bliss!

Every independent magazine and TV program rates the ST better, humour the poor fellow. He's happy with his VW badge.... :lol:

Industry data shows that the VW is less reliable than the Ford in terms of things gone wrong (TGW). The old ford Focus won the prestigious TUV award, which is a German award for quality, the golf didnt even come second!

The VW image is perception only and its normally badly informed ignorant people who think its such a good brand. If they did their research into the actual facts of reliablity then they would have a better judgement on actual quality/reliabillity.

unfortnatley you could stick a VW badge on the reliant robin and those idiots would buy one for the badge, which is good for the company however most consumers are more savvy than this these days and are not blinded by the badge.

In the mean time the ST owners will be able to see the VW badge - in their rear view mirrors - no doubt they will see some smilling buck toothed ignorant chump happy that he has a VW badge on his bonnet.


----------



## Toshiba

I wasnt having a go. im trying to be fair and objective as i feel im getting a rough ride at the moment.

End of the day some people like black, some like white. I just think its good to a least look at the other side from time to time.

All IMO, and no offense meant to any party.


----------



## sico

Toshiba said:


> I wasnt having a go. im trying to be fair and objective as i feel im getting a rough ride at the moment.
> 
> End of the day some people like black, some like white. I just think its good to a least look at the other side from time to time.
> 
> All IMO, and no offense meant to any party.


Racist! I like black and white.... :lol:

" I just think its good to a least look at the other side from time to time."

Very wise Im of the same mindset but some people are beyond that logic, they will argue that a lower quality product is better based on pure perception and badge rather than the actaul hard facts, its best not to argue back as they are blind.


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## Toshiba

sico said:


> Racist! I like black and white.... :lol:


Bugger, im collecting so many labels these day. Im gonna need a name plate the size of wales soon (no offence ment to the welsh).


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## bilbos

sico said:


> He he
> 
> leave it Toshiba - ignorance is bliss!
> 
> Every independent magazine and TV program rates the ST better, humour the poor fellow. He's happy with his VW badge.... :lol:
> 
> Industry data shows that the VW is less reliable than the Ford in terms of things gone wrong (TGW). The old ford Focus won the prestigious TUV award, which is a German award for quality, the golf didnt even come second!
> 
> The VW image is perception only and its normally badly informed ignorant people who think its such a good brand. If they did their research into the actual facts of reliablity then they would have a better judgement on actual quality/reliabillity.
> 
> unfortnatley you could stick a VW badge on the reliant robin and those idiots would buy one for the badge, which is good for the company however most consumers are more savvy than this these days and are not blinded by the badge.
> 
> In the mean time the ST owners will be able to see the VW badge - in their rear view mirrors - no doubt they will see some smilling buck toothed ignorant chump happy that he has a VW badge on his bonnet.


You can read all the articles you like, but there is no better proof of reliabilty than actually owning the car. From my past experience of VW's they had hardly any problems ( maybe I was just lucky). These were fairly recent aswell (post 2000), so my perception of the VW marque is still the same.

MkV Golf GTI - Top Gear Car of the Year 2005. I am happy with that.

Let's face it, if you were concerned with reliability, would you still buy a TT after spending 20 minutes looking through the main forum on here :roll:


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## Toshiba

Ok, but if thatâ€™s the case you wouldn't buy a golf either. As its been said so many times on or around here they are the same car in different dress's. If thatâ€™s the case are we saying the screwdrivers used on the VW cars are better than the Audi or seat cars??

If this was anything other than a car a person could be labelled a racist or a bigot for these views. :lol: ps Iâ€™m not suggesting you are, or anyone else is. im just drawing a comparison whilst making a joke.

Also how objectives or fair is the reporting on these types of programs? Can we trust what is been said/projected is fair and without bias. JC is a fan of the VW (from his MK1 days) so his opinion is not what Iâ€™d call objective. Also Iâ€™ve watch the topgear reports im sure he said the focus was a better car but heâ€™d take the VW for the badge which comes full circle to the original point.

The JDpower/which surveys are fair as they take accounts/experiences from owners not people who drive a car from a manufacture for 2hours round a track then maybe accept a few nods and a wink to give it a good review (I have no proof nor am I saying anyone on any of the programs or magazines mentioned or not mentioned has done this, but I also donâ€™t have any proof it doesnâ€™t happen either).

Just my warped view â€" so feel free to flame me.


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## bilbos

Would I buy a screwdriver with an Audi logo on it rather than a VW badge........erm, no I am not that blinkered by badge.

It is entirely possible that "incentives" are passed around to car reviewers by the car manufacturers to give their autombiles a positive report and agree that JC may weel be biased due to his love of the Mk1 GTI.

With regards to the JD Power surveys, I am not 100% sure of their accuracy. Firstly they take a fairly small population to survey (IIRC something like 30,000 respondents or so) compared to how many cars must have been sold during that survey period. Also you may well get a mix of people who want to praise how well there car has performed or how badly it has treated them. For example, with the TT, lots of respondents who have had a problem with their dashpod could leave negative feedback, despite the fact that this was the only bad point that they could draw about the car, which in overall reliability terms would put it far down the list. From my own experiences of having a TT, overall, I was very happy with it and would buy another tomorrow. Remember, statistics can be interpreted in different ways.


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## garyc

Toshiba said:


> Ok, but if thatâ€™s the case you wouldn't buy a golf either. As its been said so many times on or around here they are the same car in different dress's. If thatâ€™s the case are we saying the screwdrivers used on the VW cars are better than the Audi or seat cars??
> 
> If this was anything other than a car a person could be labelled a racist or a bigot for these views. :lol: ps Iâ€™m not suggesting you are, or anyone else is. im just drawing a comparison whilst making a joke.
> 
> Also how objectives or fair is the reporting on these types of programs? Can we trust what is been said/projected is fair and without bias. JC is a fan of the VW (from his MK1 days) so his opinion is not what Iâ€™d call objective. Also Iâ€™ve watch the topgear reports im sure he said the focus was a better car but heâ€™d take the VW for the badge which comes full circle to the original point.
> 
> The JDpower/which surveys are fair as they take accounts/experiences from owners not people who drive a car from a manufacture for 2hours round a track then maybe accept a few nods and a wink to give it a good review (I have no proof nor am I saying anyone on any of the programs or magazines mentioned or not mentioned has done this, but I also donâ€™t have any proof it doesnâ€™t happen either).
> 
> Just my warped view â€" so feel free to flame me.


Well I would not take a dot of notice of J D Power who's survey is a con, unless you like Werthers Originals and tinned salmon. :wink:

JD Power surveys are mainly completed by retired and dull people, who buy dull cars and drive them badly. That is why Toyotas, Hyundais, Protons, Kias etc all feature well.

These bitter, angry and pathetic failed individuals then take huge pride in pretending to have run a quality marque that they have never sat in yet alone owned and then picking nits all over it so that their own crap car comes out better in the surveys.

JD Power has no measure for driver pleasure...

JD Power findings are furthermore unreliable in that they extrapolate findings based on total reponse numbers and do not weight these with overall registration volumes of any given car. So if they get 10 favourable Hyundai reponses - all from the same SAGA branch who maily love their Hyundais for holding up the other traffic on a sunday - and then get say another 10 negative MB responses, each will be given the same weighting. Even though there may be 10,000 more MBs registered and happy out there, but only 200 other Hyundais registered in total.

There is also no adjustment for realative mileage covered in the JD methodology. Our Hyundai that does 10 miles per week to church and the post office _should_ be far less likely to fail than a high duty cycle 100K MB taxi. No adjustment is made.

BTW The other 180 Hyundais do no miles at all - their owners preferring to gaze at their car from the lounge window of their bungalow, whilst they suck Werthers Originals and fill out meanless JD Power surveys about how sodding good their cars are, just to get at those young upstarts with an Audi across the road. :wink:

On topic, I just got back from hols in Sicily where I hired a new Focus TCDi.

With typical Avis style, I put it through it's paces :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Dull to look at - too high on wheels, too tall overall.

Enough room for 2+2 kids and all their bags, detritus etc.

Drives OK. Gutless as one would expect of a 1.6d. Interior dull too. But good dash texture and nice build. Seats too short in thigh so uncomfortable after i hour.

Steering feel good for a FWD. Understeer awful in slow hairpins (predictable with a FWD deisel) but handling at speed very good. Brakes adequate.

Average I thought all n all. So I changed it for one of these:



















It looked_ great _- mine was dark metallic blue and 5 door (still OK). 
Even though Punto is a class smaller, it had just as much room inside as Focus and interior was quite cool and stylish compared to dull Ford.

Whilst Focus might have Punto pipped on handling, this was more than offest by Punto jutsbeing more interesting. The mags are right about the Maseratiesque styling.

It felt brisk enough too - the 120 1.9 mulitjet diesel is a great engine and far quicker than sluggish Ford - and the 6 speed box better than Fords 5 speeder. I really enjoyed it.

Would I buy one? Not new - with Fiat depn. But a Fiat I would prefer to a Ford. I never thought I'd say it.

Of course things are diiferent when on holiday in Sicily. The roads are better than in uk for a start.

I preferred the old Focus to the new one, but the new Punto is a quantum leap for Fiat over the old one. Just like Mki Focus was over the Escort and Mkv Golf is over Mkiv Golf.


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## Toshiba

But JD power is about reliability - how things fail, fall off, or breakdown not a feel good factor. The feel good factor is hard to measure as simply having a 911 or zonda, would mean they would win everytime.


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## garyc

Toshiba said:


> But JD power is about reliability - how things fail, fall off, or breakdown not a feel good factory. The feel good factory is hard to measure as simply having a 911 or zonda would mean it would win everytime.


You missed my point that the more miles you do in a car, the more likely things are to drop off. And for feel good factor, one can have just as much fun in a Focus ST (sic) as a Zonda on UK roads, so why should driver enjoyment be measured as an owners satisfaction metric?

Besides I was being TIC.


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## sico

bilbos said:


> Would I buy a screwdriver with an Audi logo on it rather than a VW badge........erm, no I am not that blinkered by badge.
> 
> It is entirely possible that "incentives" are passed around to car reviewers by the car manufacturers to give their autombiles a positive report and agree that JC may weel be biased due to his love of the Mk1 GTI.
> 
> With regards to the JD Power surveys, I am not 100% sure of their accuracy. Firstly they take a fairly small population to survey (IIRC something like 30,000 respondents or so) compared to how many cars must have been sold during that survey period. Also you may well get a mix of people who want to praise how well there car has performed or how badly it has treated them. For example, with the TT, lots of respondents who have had a problem with their dashpod could leave negative feedback, despite the fact that this was the only bad point that they could draw about the car, which in overall reliability terms would put it far down the list. From my own experiences of having a TT, overall, I was very happy with it and would buy another tomorrow. Remember, statistics can be interpreted in different ways.


So your happy with the Top Gear car of the year but not with JD Power, which one do you think was is the better judgement? :lol:

he he I like your logic, if any articles say the Golf is good then they are good if not then question them.... :wink:

I have had the same experience with you and the focus. I hired a Clio out on holiday after having a Golf for a hire car for a while whilst mine was in for work.

I must admit the driving ability of the Clio was very good although the materials were slightly worse than the Golf I would have preffered the Clio over the Golf! The Clio felt more roomy and just felt better overall, bertter looking than the slightly balnd Golf to:

Just shows how much the quaility of cars has gone down at VW, before I would have never considered it. Or maybe the quality of the french cars is catching up, again I think it faired better in the JD power suvery as well.


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## bilbos

sico said:


> bilbos said:
> 
> 
> 
> Would I buy a screwdriver with an Audi logo on it rather than a VW badge........erm, no I am not that blinkered by badge.
> 
> It is entirely possible that "incentives" are passed around to car reviewers by the car manufacturers to give their autombiles a positive report and agree that JC may weel be biased due to his love of the Mk1 GTI.
> 
> With regards to the JD Power surveys, I am not 100% sure of their accuracy. Firstly they take a fairly small population to survey (IIRC something like 30,000 respondents or so) compared to how many cars must have been sold during that survey period. Also you may well get a mix of people who want to praise how well there car has performed or how badly it has treated them. For example, with the TT, lots of respondents who have had a problem with their dashpod could leave negative feedback, despite the fact that this was the only bad point that they could draw about the car, which in overall reliability terms would put it far down the list. From my own experiences of having a TT, overall, I was very happy with it and would buy another tomorrow. Remember, statistics can be interpreted in different ways.
Click to expand...

So your happy with the Top Gear car of the year but not with JD Power, which one do you think was is the better judgement? :lol:

he he I like your logic, if any articles say the Golf is good then they are good if not then question them.... :wink:

I am happy with the choice of car of the year for the GTi, however with regards to the JD Power survey, I was trying to fight the corner for the TT. Like I said, I was very happy with it during my ownership period and was disappointed at it's poor placing in the survey. That's what makes me question it's validity.

Anyway, Focus ST, crap or what :wink:


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## VX220

So deanpoli, did you buy one or the other? Sorry if its been answered, I haven't read the 9 pages in detail. 

To add my thoughts/experiences if its still of interest and maybe to others, me and my other half have tested both the GTi and ST. (Also tested Mini copper works, Civic Type R, Audi TTR 3.2 and 163, VX220 Turbo and a Discovery 3 in the same weekend, what a weekend  )

She brought the Golf GTi, I brought the TTR 163, (after buying a VX220 turbo and then trading it in for the TTR, touchy subject :roll: )

Why the GTi - because of the badge of course :lol: see I have read some of the replies.

Forget the money - The GTi is a better all round car. I'm not going to go into pages of comparisons because its been done in the press and most of them I agree with after driving both cars. What I have not seen mentioned much is the build quality and this is what shines through with the Golf. The most obvious is exterior bodywork. The side skirts on the ST reminded me instantly of the RGA ones I first fitted to my 1978 Fiesta. The back bumper lip facing the rear tyre looked like it had been moulded out of balsa wood and didnâ€™t line up properly, oh and there was a rattle from the centre console. There are loads of tiny details on the Gti that the ST just cant compete with, again it becomes obvious when you have spent 3 or so hours with each car and a few months owning the Gti. The ST has been built to a price such that it can give the Gti a run for is money!

Take into account the money - Its much more difficult. I really wanted the ST, I have several Fords and lets face it the ST is a bargain  The engine sounds amazing, the handling is spot on, not as stiff as the Gti and handles as well, the steering has more feel on the ST and it pulls like a train, however IMO its going to loose more money than the Gti when you come to trade it in. 2 reasons its not an RS ( and if Ford do change teir mind and release an RS then further quidâ€™s will fall off) and I am fed up with Ford dumping prices 12 months or so after launch of new models, Â£1000 cash back, free this free that, you only have to walk into a Ford show room and you can knock Â£1000 or more off list without trying which is great if you ae gong to keep a car for 10 years but does you no favours when you come to trade in after say 3 years. VW, Audi and of course others are much more careful about protecting their brand, again this is just my option based on experience after giving sales guys a hard time when a deal is to be done :wink:

So, thatâ€™s my thoughts, not loaded with facts :? , just my honest opinions ultimately of course the only way to tell if a car is for you is to give it a good old fashioned test drive (scream the nuts off it) and then go back and do it again before handing over your money. Donâ€™t put up with 20mins round the test route as I leant to my cost in the past!


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## Toshiba

But it comes back to its all subjective. The gti looks 'to me' crap; the backend is all wrong the internal design is a cure for insomnia and to buy a car for a 'badge' is silly. You said yourself the engine is better in the focus, as is the handling. Stats are also better for 0-60 and mid range on the focus. Worth less in 2 years - this is balanced out by less up front/cheaper servicing costs and the people in the know are saying the focus will hold its money as well as the golf.

The on thing you didnâ€™t mention that is the a positive for the gti over the ST is the MPG.

Practicality - the boots smaller on the golf.

The Golf so good its been replaced two years ahead of schedule â€" Tell you everything. :lol:

Get a mkvi - maybe they will get that one right.


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## bilbos

On yesterdays news headlines they announced that Ford (in the US) are really stuggling to sell cars. Profits are down substantially and it is even possible to get discounts on MY 2007 vehicles with loads of extras thrown in. Doesn't inspire confidence. :?


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## VX220

Wheey Hey my first reply to my first post, thanks Toshiba, need to get more involved with the TT posts now as I have been reading them for long enough 

Its is difficult to answer why we whet for the Gti, as the ST is great especially at the price, ok if I am honest perhaps the VW name did come into a little, as I said we have owned mainly Fords and just fancied a change to something that felt better screwed together and the golf gave that impression only time will tell if it was the right decision but for the moment we love it!

Out of interest I was told by the Ford sales lady at the test drive the ST boot will be bigger on newer builds because the spare wheel and the packing used to raise the spare wheel will be removed and replaced with a can of tyre weld making the boot floor lower. This saves the weight of the full size spare too which is a bonus. Something to look for when comparing older and newer build models.

The rear leg room and head room is nothing like as good in the ST as the Gti something else that swayed us.

Out of interest what do you think VW need to do to the next model golf to get it right then? What did you or didnâ€™t you like when you drove the GTi


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## Toshiba

bilbos said:


> On yesterdays news headlines they announced that Ford (in the US) are really stuggling to sell cars. Profits are down substantially and it is even possible to get discounts on MY 2007 vehicles with loads of extras thrown in. Doesn't inspire confidence. :?


:roll: I can tell you did a lot of research on this before posting - not....

Im guessing as you seem brand blind thatâ€™s this is not the same situation faced by the VW group then? VW is saying its going to have to make up to 20000 workers redundant and close down loads of factories by 2008! I quote 'chief executive Bernd Pischetsrieder and his fellow directors bluntly told staff that VW was doomed unless it carried out a multibillion-euro costcutting programme at its core Volkswagen brand and doubled its earnings within three years.' This sounds rather worse than Fords problems to me. Best start stocking up on parts for the golf before it goes the way of rover :lol:

Or maybe the fact VW lost 843MEurs in the US market alone last year will help you to size up the scale of the problem its currently facing? 

Or maybe the MKVI is coming so soon (2 years earlier than planned) is nothing to do with the fact that the golf is a flop - sorry to quote again 'has not been the success we had hoped for' :lol:

Good job the boxters selling well or VW could have hit the wall already.

The short of it is ALL car companies are struggling BIG time and i donâ€™t think ANY of them are safe until one of the big ones hits the wall else are bought out by one of the others.

Great news for us as buyers though, just look at all the deals and cheap cars due to oversupply.


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## Toshiba

VX220 said:


> Wheey Hey my first reply to my first post, thanks Toshiba, need to get more involved with the TT posts now as I have been reading them for long enough


Hello and welcome dont forget to post up some pics and specs in the main forum.



VX220 said:


> The rear leg room and head room is nothing like as good in the ST as the Gti something else that swayed us.
> 
> Out of interest what do you think VW need to do to the next model golf to get it right then? What did you or didnâ€™t you like when you drove the GTi


I know what you mean with the rear leg room, but its just not true - its just that shapes and angles that make it feel like the gti is bigger -check out the stats in the mags and you'll see its smaller 25mm or so IIRC 

Boot is longer and was more usable on the ST - ie you can get a wheel chair in the back of the ST, but it wont go in the gti.

What do Vw need to do with the MKVI? if i knew that i'd be on big Â£Â£Â£'s
The MKV is a real 5 seater, the MKIV wasnt so thats a step forward. The cars are too safe, ie they just play it safe all the time with the design. Its just boring.

The big thing is they need to cut costs and hope sales (all sales for all makes) pick up or it could be the start of the end and then we'll all end up with Micras.[/quote]


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## sico

Toshiba said:


> bilbos said:
> 
> 
> 
> On yesterdays news headlines they announced that Ford (in the US) are really stuggling to sell cars. Profits are down substantially and it is even possible to get discounts on MY 2007 vehicles with loads of extras thrown in. Doesn't inspire confidence. :?
> 
> 
> 
> :roll: I can tell you did a lot of research on this before posting - not....
> 
> Im guessing as you seem brand blind thatâ€™s this is not the same situation faced by the VW group then? VW is saying its going to have to make up to 20000 workers redundant and close down loads of factories by 2008! I quote 'chief executive Bernd Pischetsrieder and his fellow directors bluntly told staff that VW was doomed unless it carried out a multibillion-euro costcutting programme at its core Volkswagen brand and doubled its earnings within three years.' This sounds rather worse than Fords problems to me. Best start stocking up on parts for the golf before it goes the way of rover :lol:
> 
> Or maybe the fact VW lost 843MEurs in the US market alone last year will help you to size up the scale of the problem its currently facing?
> 
> Or maybe the MKVI is coming so soon (2 years earlier than planned) is nothing to do with the fact that the golf is a flop - sorry to quote again 'has not been the success we had hoped for' :lol:
> 
> Good job the boxters selling well or VW could have hit the wall already.
> 
> The short of it is ALL car companies are struggling BIG time and i donâ€™t think ANY of them are safe until one of the big ones hits the wall else are bought out by one of the others.
> 
> Great news for us as buyers though, just look at all the deals and cheap cars due to oversupply.
Click to expand...

Yes you are correct, I know as I do work in the car industry.

All car companys are finding the current climate hard, even some of the japanese makers. 
VW are making the new golf and bringing it out sooner due to the cost of making the old Golf! Not many car companys are making a clear profit.

Ford are doing ok (in comparision to others) in the UK as the turnaround program started here a few years back. The US have just started their turn around program as times are hard.

The company as a whole is ok but is too big and needs to effectivley down size in order to maintain profitability.

Ford own Aston Martin, Jaguar, Volvo and Landrover aswell as a large share in Mazda.

---------

VW first quarter 2006 financial results:

Volkswagen is undergoing a wide-ranging restructuring in an effort to reduceovercapacities and labor costs, which are the highest in automotive industry.

Volkswagen's restructuring plan follows similar efforts by auto giants GeneralMotors Corp. (GM), Ford Motor Co. (F) and DaimlerChrysler AG (DCX), all of whichhave announced plans to slash thousands of jobs in an effort to cut costs andregain competitiveness in the face of slimmer Asian rivals.

At 1026 GMT, Volkswagen shares were down EUR2.60, or 4%, at EUR62.10, whilethe DAX bluechip index was down 0.9%.

"The results were below expectations. The earnings dynamics especiallydisappointed," said HVB analyst Albrecht Denninghoff, who has a neutral ratingon Volkswagen shares.

But Denninghoff noted that the figures for production and car sales wereactually "positive".


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## jampott

Guys guys guys.

Can we all remember we're talking about a couple of shitty hatchbacks here? We're not talking supercars! :lol:


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## bilbos

Toshiba said:


> bilbos said:
> 
> 
> 
> On yesterdays news headlines they announced that Ford (in the US) are really stuggling to sell cars. Profits are down substantially and it is even possible to get discounts on MY 2007 vehicles with loads of extras thrown in. Doesn't inspire confidence. :?
> 
> 
> 
> :roll: I can tell you did a lot of research on this before posting - not....
Click to expand...

No I didn't do any research, I was just quoting the news that I had heard. I hadn't heard anything about VW's troubles, therefore, I didn't mention it.

I had heard about the current golf being costly to produce and that the next one is going to have to be substantially cheaper in order to be viable. VW are losing money on the GTI (in the US) as they have to price it competitively with similar cars from other manufacturers. The GTI is at least 30% cheaper than in the UK. This to me, makes it an excellent bargain.

German cars in general do not sell in large volumes over here, it is not just limited to VW. For example, I see few Audis on the roads. The TT in particular is pretty scarce. I see maybe two in a month.

This whole thread has trundled on for some time. I post about the GTI positively because it is the car that I own at present. I am sure that you would do the same for the QS. I will move onto something else in a couple of years and then wax lyrical over that, most people do when they get a new car. The Focus ST may be a better car in _some_ peoples eyes, but I reiterate that I would never buy one, mainly because it is a FORD.

It is strange that you fight the corner of the ST so vehemently. You must have a major anti-VW thing going on. Kind of like my hatred for FORD's :wink:


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## sico

Fair point, I wouldnt buy the Golf as its a VW....


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## Toshiba

Im happy to tell anyone the problem with the QS, or the normal TT - and i have many times. However it is only IMO. I was simply putting your post in context. All car makers are struggling big time. VW happens to be worse than mose but that doesnt really mean anything.

My issue with vw is that people buy them due to the marketing hype, not the real picture. A badge is a badge and means bugger all try something else you might find its better even if you dont like the badge.

However back to my first point - if you're happy does it matter what i or others think? no!


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## poTTy

bilbos said:


> On yesterdays news headlines they announced that Ford (in the US) are really stuggling to sell cars. Profits are down substantially and it is even possible to get discounts on MY 2007 vehicles with loads of extras thrown in. Doesn't inspire confidence. :?


And what is the relevance of selling cars in the US to the Focus ST and Golf in the UK ? Ford in the UK and Europe is profitable and retaining market share without the major distress marketing activities of other manufacturers such as guess who ? yes VW Group amongst others.

VW are stuggling in Germany due to the market conditions in Germany and recently have been dumping excess production in the UK. This is resulting in large discounts being available on VW cars. In fact at times in the last 6 months you could get a Golf for the price of a Skoda Oktavia !

Watch what happens to VW residuals.....


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