# Issues after cambelt change - NOT FIXED :-(



## pelidan (Nov 19, 2010)

Hi Guys,

I'm really hoping someone can help me out here.

I've just had the cambelt and waterpump replaced on my 2001 225 TT.

I took the car out for a drive and noticed 2 issues (neither og which happened before the cambelt was done):

1. The temp gauge started to creep upwards from time to time ( I have never seen it move from 90 before). I checked it using the 49C method and it was between 96 and 102 while driving, this seems slightly high to me?

2. When I returned home I noticed a rattling noise from the engine when idling. The noise disappears when the accelerator is pressed but returns on idle again. i did some searching on the forum and from what others have said it sounds like the cam chain tensioner?

Is there any thing that could cause these 2 issues, could they be linked?

I wondered if it could be the oil picked pipe that is getting blocked with sludge, if there is not enough oil pressure the cam chain could rattle and the low oil pressure could also cause the temp to rise? (this is the thread i was reading viewtopic.php?f=2&t=222258)

Any help or advice would be really appreciated.

thanks


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## Hoggy (May 8, 2002)

Hi, Compared to mine It does sound rattly, but I'm fairly sure it's not a camchain rattle, that usually occurs at 1500/2000 rpm when revs raised slowly. 
Could be perhaps that cambelt is a tooth out. Take it back & complain, politely at first.
Hoggy.


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## kasandrich (Sep 5, 2011)

you have a cambelt not a camchain :? so it cannot be camchain tensioner....can it?


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## martian71 (Nov 25, 2013)

My Temp does exactly the same going to change temp sensor and thermostat tomorrow I will let you know if it cures it.


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## Hoggy (May 8, 2002)

kasandrich said:


> you have a cambelt not a camchain :? so it cannot be camchain tensioner....can it?


Hi, A cam chain connects the inlet & outlet camshafts on the 1.8T engine.
Hoggy.


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## kasandrich (Sep 5, 2011)

Ah, I see, I was not aware of that


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## ades tt 180 (Jun 19, 2011)

Did you have the hydraulic tensioner replaced?...They have to compress the piston on it to get the belt on and they can rattle if they're knackered. ..does the rattle sound like it's coming from inside the cam belt cover?


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## ades tt 180 (Jun 19, 2011)

Just listened to the video...jeeez! It sounds like a diesel!...my guess is that it's a tooth out...get it back and ask them to check it.


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## L33JSA (Jun 30, 2010)

That absolutely definitely isnt right.

Does it start first time everytime?

What I will say though is with it disappearing when you rev it it could be oil pressure related to do with the camchain tensionner.

Can you do a scan & post up results?


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## Skeee (Jun 9, 2009)

L33JSA said:


> ....................Can you do a scan & post up results?


 +1

If you google:-
"*ross tech cam timing*" about ten different fault codes come up half of which mention "_timing belt incorrectly installed_."


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## Wak (May 6, 2002)

in respect of the temps, did they use a genuine water pump or a clone or metal, my experience with aftermarket was less flow higher temps.

Genuine are excellent now, revised and dont have the cracking issues that earlier ones had.


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## Stochman (Aug 16, 2013)

Not being funny but who did the cambelt change, are they an Audi indy, was it a recommended garage or one that you've used regularly, or just someone who gave the 'cheapest' quote?

I've had loads of cambelts changed on various cars down the years and never have I had one where it's a tooth out :-o


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## ades tt 180 (Jun 19, 2011)

I had one put on my mk2 golf gti. It ran fine up to 3000 rpm...After that it had no power at all. Took it back and the cam was 1 tooth out...refitted the belt and all was well again.


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## pelidan (Nov 19, 2010)

Thanks to everyone who has replied, really useful to hear others opinions.

I will try to answer all the questions below:

@ades TT - I don't think the hydraulic tensioner was replaced. I'm not sure exactly where the rattle was coming from, it sounded like the rear of the engine somewhere near the bulk head.

@L33JSA - The car starts first time every time yes. I will do a Vagcom scan and see what comes up, the CEL light isn't on at the moment, is there a specific block I need to scan using Vagcom (I have access to Vagcom but have only used it a few times!)
I also suspected it might be to do with Oil pressure as the noise vanishes as soon as the accelerator is pressed, this is why i thought it could the oil picked pipe that might be slightly blocked?

@Wak - I'm not sure if a genuine water pump or a clone was used. It was not a metal one though, I will ask them and find out.

@Stochman - It was an indy garage who I have been using for years now and are family friends, they are excellent. So it's not some dodgy backstreet garage. The car is going back to them so they can take another look.

If it was a tooth out would the noise occur all the time? It only happens when the car is warm and at idle. If i start the car from cold and leave it ticking over the noise is not present, it seems to happen after the car has been driven hard and then left to idle.

There is no loss of power or anything like that, the car drives fine and the CEL light is NOT on either?

I will do a vagcom scan on Monday, do i just need to do a general scan or should i scan a particular block (I've not used vagcom much)


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## Wak (May 6, 2002)

If it's going back then get the hydraulic damper changed its a false economy to have your new belt break because and old damper failed as they do and are a cause of failures


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## Stochman (Aug 16, 2013)

Pelidan, they may be family friends but by not recommending that you change the hydraulic tensioner (or did they?) when you had the cambelt changed they weren't doing you any favours, as Wak says it's false economy.


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## pelidan (Nov 19, 2010)

Does anybody know if the hydraulic tensioner comes as part of the cambelt kit? or does that part have to be purchased separately?

So do we think it's the tensioner then?!


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## red3.2 (Jun 30, 2008)

Can't speak for Audi but on a VW it comes as a kit( so the dealer told me when they changed it on our Beetle ) complete with tensioner. As previously stated false economy to change the belt without the tensioner.


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## L33JSA (Jun 30, 2010)

pelidan said:


> Does anybody know if the hydraulic tensioner comes as part of the cambelt kit? or does that part have to be purchased separately?
> 
> So do we think it's the tensioner then?!


It doesnt come as part of the kit and has to be purchased separately.

Personally I don't think it's the cambelt tensioner no - it sounds too mechanical to be that. However it could be the camchain tensioner.

Also how do you know they didnt get the timing wrong originally, damaged something....then got the timing right afterwards.


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

It sounds too fast for a cam follower at idle. More the speed of crank but I wouldn't expect it to run smooth on revving like that. Difficult to hear exactly how it comes back because of the AGC on the phone. Have a feel of the vacuum system hard nylon black tubes that run around the engine bay to feel if they are pulsing at the same rate. There are some that come from the Evap canister and around the bulkhead and bay. If so you could have a failed non return valve or a leak. There's also a solenoid valve there. You may find clamping the rubber coupling tube stops it.


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## nelmanners (Feb 1, 2012)

HI, I had the exact same problem and sounded just like that. I had my oil pickup and oil pump changed. the oil pickup was not that bad, but my oil pump was bad. After that it was all good.

Cheers
Werner


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## straut (Aug 31, 2011)

red3.2 said:


> Can't speak for Audi but on a VW it comes as a kit( so the dealer told me when they changed it on our Beetle ) complete with tensioner. As previously stated false economy to change the belt without the tensioner.


Hi Kit comes complete with tensioner but NOT the damper that part must be bought separately.

Having just listened to the video my son has the exact same noise from his Vauxhaull Astra,no work has been done to it its not due a belt change and the same as yours as soon as you touch the throttle the noise is totally gone.
When i first heard it i told him not to drive it but when i started looking for it it would appear to be coming from the alternator,alternator belt tensioner,or a pulley......does the TT have a solid bottom pulley or a damped one that could possibly be breaking up and as soon as you put drive on it it takes up the play ??????? could you take the alternator belt off and start it to eliminate all that ?????


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## pelidan (Nov 19, 2010)

John-H said:


> It sounds too fast for a cam follower at idle. More the speed of crank but I wouldn't expect it to run smooth on revving like that. Difficult to hear exactly how it comes back because of the AGC on the phone. Have a feel of the vacuum system hard nylon black tubes that run around the engine bay to feel if they are pulsing at the same rate. There are some that come from the Evap canister and around the bulkhead and bay. If so you could have a failed non return valve or a leak. There's also a solenoid valve there. You may find clamping the rubber coupling tube stops it.


@john-H - Thanks for this info, really useful. Interesting you mentioned the vac tubes, when doing the cambelt they found that the pipe you mentioned had a leak and replaced it, so not sure if that could be linked in some way? Although in my case it seems the opposite way round to what you mentioned, I had a leak before and no rattle, leak is now fixed and rattle appeared! So may just be co-incidence!

The car is going back in next week, they are going to replace the hydraulic tensioner as it did not come as part of the kit. I am hoping that this is the problem, i guess the old tensioner could have been 'disturbed' when they were fitting the new belts. It's getting replaced for good measure anyway.

They're also fitting a new genuine audi water pump, as the one that they fitted was a metal one. I've asked for a genuine audi one just to rule out any issues with aftermarket parts. Hopefully this is why the temperature seemed to be slightly higher than before.

We don't think the belt is a tooth out as the car starts first time every time and is running better than ever (apart from the rattle :roll: )

Anyway, thank you for all the replies. It's really useful info and so helpful! I really appreciate people taking the time to help out. I will post up the results next week and we can see who's diagnoses was the closest!


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## Stochman (Aug 16, 2013)

pelidan said:


> I will post up the results next week and we can see who's diagnoses was the closest!


I'm opening up my Betfair account to do a dutch on John-H/Lee/Hoggy, I'd put my mortgage on one of those three getting it right


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## L33JSA (Jun 30, 2010)

Stochman said:


> pelidan said:
> 
> 
> > I will post up the results next week and we can see who's diagnoses was the closest!
> ...


LOL......race is on!!

I'm putting it down to an oil pressure related issue and just coincidence with regards to the cambelt. Although I will say that redoing the job again with an oe water pump and new tensioner is the proper thing to do. Strictly speaking you shouldn't re-use the cambelt now either so make sure that is new again.

The noise did actually sound a lot like mine did when I bent a rod....but that definitely didn't disappear when revved.


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## pelidan (Nov 19, 2010)

The car is going back to the garage tomorrow, so i'll post up the issue when I hear from them.

I'm considering asking them to drop the oil pan and check the oil pickup pipe for sludge etc too? The more I have read on the forum the more this seems to be coming up when relating to oil pressure issues.

Do you think it would be worth me asking them to do this too?


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## L33JSA (Jun 30, 2010)

pelidan said:


> Do you think it would be worth me asking them to do this too?


Yes - even if they don't find anything amiss it's just peace of mind. Very common issue and can potentially kill an engine. I would ask them to change the pickup pipe & o ring not just look at it.


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## Hoggy (May 8, 2002)

Hi, Straut asked about alternator pulley, some have a freewheel pulley, that can rattle, so may be worth checking that.
Hoggy.


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## Peeunit (May 22, 2013)

I had the EXACT same problem

Had the cambelt and pump changed. About 1000 miles later, it just suddenly sounded like a tractor on start up. A few revs and it was ok, but would go back to sounding just terrible.

It was the timing CHAIN rattling against the housing. The tensioners were wound out as far as they would go, so then started rattling. Had to have the chain and tensioners replaced, and was sweet as a nut.
Had the same problem on my mapped fiesta as well.


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## pelidan (Nov 19, 2010)

Peeunit said:


> I had the EXACT same problem
> 
> Had the cambelt and pump changed. About 1000 miles later, it just suddenly sounded like a tractor on start up. A few revs and it was ok, but would go back to sounding just terrible.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info, how much did that set you back if you don't mind me asking?


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## Peeunit (May 22, 2013)

> Thanks for the info, how much did that set you back if you don't mind me asking?


No not at all mate. It was the labour which was the most expensive bit. I think they took about 8 hours to do it @ £26/hour

I think it ended up around the £500 mark if I remember correctly, but I had a couple of other bits done at the same time as well.
I'm happy to put you in touch with the garage (Boston, lincolnshire)


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## pelidan (Nov 19, 2010)

Update 1 - just heard from the garage, it looks like L33JSSA might have hit the nail on the head.

They said the noise is nothing to do with the cambelt/tensioner. It sounds like the hydraulic lifters, they suspect it may be sludge around the pick up pipe causing low oil pressure.

So they are currently doing an engine flush and then going to drop the sump and see what lies beneath!

(They are also putting a new genuine hydraulic tensioner on and a gen water pump for good measure)

I will update further when I hear from them later today.

Fingers crossed the flush and replacement pick up pipe solves the problem.

(The noise itself sounds much worse on the video/over the phone than it does in the flesh!)

If the oil pump was going bad would this be a symptom? Or would the oil pump just give up all together?


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## L33JSA (Jun 30, 2010)

Tell them NOT to flush the engine.

Just tell them to drop the sump and change the pickup pipe.

Yes if the oil pump was going bad it would also have the similar symptoms.


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## pelidan (Nov 19, 2010)

L33JSA said:


> Tell them NOT to flush the engine.
> 
> Just tell them to drop the sump and change the pickup pipe.
> 
> Yes if the oil pump was going bad it would also have the similar symptoms.


Thanks - i've told them not to bother with the flush, thanks for the tip.

If the pick up pipe is not the problem I will get the pump changed.

Cheers


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

Did they feel if the pipes were pulsing like I suggested or actually measure the oil pressure to confirm? If they did then fine but a faulty vacuum system can sound an awful lot like low oil pressure symptoms and I know a well known experienced garage who had the sump off convinced it was low oil pressure and it's a lot cheaper to fix if it is vacuum.


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## pelidan (Nov 19, 2010)

Results:

I got the car back last night, and the noise appears to have vanished 

It looks like it was the oil pickup pipe getting clogged up. When they dropped the sump there were little bits of the dipstick tube in there!

So they cleaned it all out and put fresh oil in and a new oil filter and it sounds lovely and quiet on tick over now.

They also fitted a new hydraulic tensioner as it wasn't done when they did the cambelt.

Finally they put a gen water pump on and that seems to have solved the hot running issue too, needle doesn't move from 90 now. So as WAK said, it looks the the non gen water pump was not up to the job. The garage said the pitch of the blades was slightly different on the non gen one which could have affected the flow.

Anyway, the car is running lovely now so fingers crossed it stays that way.

Many thanks to everyone who offered advice, it really helped.


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## L33JSA (Jun 30, 2010)

pelidan said:


> So they cleaned it all out and put fresh oil in and a new oil filter and it sounds lovely and quiet on tick over now.


For the cost (£15 genuine parts) they should have just replaced not cleaned the whole pickup pipe & o ring as everyone on here recommended. Sometimes you cannot quite see what is lurking in the corners of the pickup.

Least you're sorted though.


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## tangapants (Oct 10, 2012)

Hi, glad to hear you have it sorted, must be a great feeling!

I dont suppose you could upload a video of your now healthy engine? just because mine has a slight ticking noise during idle, i've heard this is meant to be normal, but now you have your engine running nicely it would be great to hear a before and after video? 

Thanks


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## pelidan (Nov 19, 2010)

tangapants said:


> Hi, glad to hear you have it sorted, must be a great feeling!
> 
> I dont suppose you could upload a video of your now healthy engine? just because mine has a slight ticking noise during idle, i've heard this is meant to be normal, but now you have your engine running nicely it would be great to hear a before and after video?
> 
> Thanks


No Problem, I will record a clip at lunchtime and upload it 
From what I understand and have read, the TT engine is quite noisy as standard and can 'Tick' and it's nothing to be worried about.


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

Ah good, they got to the source of the problem


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## L33JSA (Jun 30, 2010)

pelidan said:


> .... the TT engine is quite noisy as standard and can 'Tick' and it's nothing to be worried about.


TT tourettes.... :lol: :lol:


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## Stochman (Aug 16, 2013)

Nice one Pelidan, chuffed that you've got it sorted


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## pelidan (Nov 19, 2010)

tangapants said:


> Hi, glad to hear you have it sorted, must be a great feeling!
> 
> I dont suppose you could upload a video of your now healthy engine? just because mine has a slight ticking noise during idle, i've heard this is meant to be normal, but now you have your engine running nicely it would be great to hear a before and after video?
> 
> Thanks


@Tangapants - Sorry for the slight delay, but as promised here is a short vid of my engine ticking over now.

It sounds louder on the video than in real life, but hopefully this will help you out.

http://s67.photobucket.com/user/Dan_the ... d.mp4.html

Dan


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## James1050S3 (Sep 7, 2013)

Sounds much better, hope you had the garage door open when you took that!


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## pelidan (Nov 19, 2010)

ANOTHER UPDATE: THE NOISE IS BACK  :x

The car ran perfectly for a few days but the noise has now returned, it's exactly the same, only happens when the car is hot and at idle, the slightest bit of throttle and it vanishes.

The CEL light has also appreared.

@John-H : I tried to have a feel of the vac pipes like you suggested last night, I wasn't sure which one to feel so i squeezed the one that runs just under the turbo outlet pipe and it did seem to be pulsing in time with the noise.

Do you have any suggestions on where I should go from here?

I ran vag-com this morning and got the following:

2 Faults Found:
17511 - Oxygen (Lambda) Sensor Heating; B1 S1 
P1103 - 35-10 - Performance too Low - Intermittent

17544 - Fuel Trim: Bank 1 (Add) 
P1136 - 35-00 - System too Lean
Readiness: 0000 0001

I've been battling with the 'System too lean' issue since i got the car, it goes to the garage and they find a split pipe, replace it and about 100 miles later the light comes back on.

Could this be related?

Thanks again for any help with this, It's really starting to get me down now


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## L33JSA (Jun 30, 2010)

You need to have your oil pressure checked when hot & idling - if it's low then replace the oil pump and replace the pickup pipe. If that doesnt cure it then I'd say you'll need to replace the camchain tensioner.

Looks like pre cat lambda sensor needs replacing also - unrelated to the other issue.


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## mstew (Mar 17, 2012)

On the 'lean' issue, wouldn't you be running rich if it was a split pipe? Sounds to me something more to do with the fuel system i.e. pump or injectors. I'm no expert so can't help further I'm afraid. Lean means too little fuel in the mix, not air.


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## pelidan (Nov 19, 2010)

L33JSA said:


> You need to have your oil pressure checked when hot & idling - if it's low then replace the oil pump and replace the pickup pipe. If that doesnt cure it then I'd say you'll need to replace the camchain tensioner.
> 
> Looks like pre cat lambda sensor needs replacing also - unrelated to the other issue.


Thanks - I have arranged for the car to be taken back and the oil pressure to be checked. I really hope that is the problem!

Does anybody have the figures for what the oil pressure should be so we can compare?


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

pelidan said:


> ANOTHER UPDATE: THE NOISE IS BACK :x
> 
> The car ran perfectly for a few days but the noise has now returned, it's exactly the same, only happens when the car is hot and at idle, the slightest bit of throttle and it vanishes.
> 
> ...


Oh dear. It was to be hoped they got to the bottom of the problem.

Check the solenoid valve on top of the charcoal filter (2 - in diagram). There is a pipe which runs from the solinoid to the back of the rocker cover near the DV . If you pinch and hold this pipe does the ticking noise stop? If you pinch the pipe at the front of the rocker cover or between the Charcoal filter and solinoid does it again stop?

This is from a PM I sent to someone a long while back that had the problem Iwith a few ideas that I was referring to. The noise sounds very like low oil pressure cam follower symptoms - goes away when revved, only there on a hot engine and because the pipe runs around the engine bay and is pulsing it does not have a point source and focusses the sound in the middle where the cam cover is. He too had the sump off but didn't find any blockages:



> (APX engine - includes recirculating air pump - 23)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It turned out to be the solenoid valve on the top of the charcoal filter but I've included the rest in case it is one of the other possibilities.


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## pelidan (Nov 19, 2010)

Thanks John-H, that is incredibly helpful!

I will print this out and pass it onto the garage.


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## Stochman (Aug 16, 2013)

Excellent post John. To have support like that in times of TT trouble makes this forum what it is, absolutely superb!


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## pelidan (Nov 19, 2010)

Stochman said:


> Excellent post John. To have support like that in times of TT trouble makes this forum what it is, absolutely superb!


Totally agree, can't put a price on advice like that. Really hope this is the problem!


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## pelidan (Nov 19, 2010)

John, I followed your advice and trying to pinch the pipes you mentioned and the noise did not stop.

Here is a video showing the pipes i pinched - Are they the ones you were referring to?

http://s67.photobucket.com/user/Dan_the ... 6.mp4.html

Does this mean I can rule that out now?

If so, I guess this means that the next thing to try is to measure the oil pressure to see if it's low on idle?

When i was stood there shortly after making the video, the noise vanished and did not come back. I hope the oil pump is the answer, not sure how much longer i can deal with this :-(


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

When you felt the pipes before, you mentioned you could feel the pulsing. Could you feel it when you squeezed the pipes in the latest video? You also need to clamp the pipes tight so no air can pass through and pliers might be better to do this with.

You can also make a stethoscope with a king sized screwdriver - the big end against your ear and the pointy end pressed onto objects to hear where the noise is coming from. If the noise is cam followers then pressing it onto the alloy cam cover would confirm this. If it is collapsed followers you should hear a difference between one end of the engine and the other as you work your way along as the valve timings are different - that's if they are all collapsing together. Usually with collapsing followers you'll get one starting first (at a slower rate than your video) but then the others will join in and then it can sound faster as you'll have the gaps filed in by the different timing of the valves. In your other video the noise seemed at the same fast rate and just got louder - which made me think it wasn't followers. But there's no substitute for actualy being there.

As has been said, they really need to measure the oil pressure at hot idle to see if it's in spec before taking sumps off and changing pumps etc. There's also the possibility it could be a faulty oil pressure relief valve and that's just behind the filter, where the pressure gauge is connected.

I hoped that helps.


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## pelidan (Nov 19, 2010)

John-H said:


> When you felt the pipes before, you mentioned you could feel the pulsing. Could you feel it when you squeezed the pipes in the latest video? You also need to clamp the pipes tight so no air can pass through and pliers might be better to do this with.
> 
> You can also make a stethoscope with a king sized screwdriver - the big end against your ear and the pointy end pressed onto objects to hear where the noise is coming from. If the noise is cam followers then pressing it onto the alloy cam cover would confirm this. If it is collapsed followers you should hear a difference between one end of the engine and the other as you work your way along as the valve timings are different - that's if they are all collapsing together. Usually with collapsing followers you'll get one starting first (at a slower rate than your video) but then the others will join in and then it can sound faster as you'll have the gaps filed in by the different timing of the valves. In your other video the noise seemed at the same fast rate and just got louder - which made me think it wasn't followers. But there's no substitute for actualy being there.
> 
> ...


That's a great help, thanks John.

When i felt the pipes I could feel air pulsing yes, more so from the shorter pipe that i squeezed first, I will have another go using a set of pliers to pinch the tube.

Thanks for the tip on the stethoscope too.

The car is going back sometime in the next few days to get the oil pressure checked too, so i will update when I get the results. I've printed all your notes out for the garage too, thanks so much for taking the time to post, it's being a great help.


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## pelidan (Nov 19, 2010)

Just got back from having the Oil pressure checked, result are (engine warm):

Idle: 1.5bar
3000rpm : 4.3bar

So the oil pump looks healthy based on those figures?

In addition, the knocking noise does not seem to be happening much at all after I had the pickup pipe cleaned out and changed the oil and filter, i've only heard it once or twice and it disappears on its own where as before it was happening every time the car got hot.

So i'm going to keep an eye on it and see if the noise comes back, if so I will replace the camchain tensioner. Fingers crossed it stays away!

Thanks to everyone who has given me advice, it's been such a great help.


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## NoMark (Jul 6, 2011)

Good news, it does sound like it may be cam chain.


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## chamberlaintt (Dec 21, 2013)

Hey did they say anything about the Mini chain (Cam)??


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## chamberlaintt (Dec 21, 2013)

pelidan said:


> Just got back from having the Oil pressure checked, result are (engine warm):
> 
> Idle: 1.5bar
> 3000rpm : 4.3bar
> ...


This is fantastic news so im hoping now when I replace my oil pump and pick up....it should solve my problem
has the noise almost completely gone now then mate...


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## pelidan (Nov 19, 2010)

chamberlaintt said:


> pelidan said:
> 
> 
> > Just got back from having the Oil pressure checked, result are (engine warm):
> ...


Been advised just to keep an eye on it for now, and it the rattle comes back or gets worse we can properly diagnose it. I think from reading posts that the noise is the camchain but I'm hoping that cleaning the pipe/up sump etc has sorted it. It has definitely improved the situation though!

I'm glad the oil pressure is good too as i didn't really want to drive the car thinking it might be on its way out.

Hopefully sorting the oil pickup will fix your issue too. Keep me updated!


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## chamberlaintt (Dec 21, 2013)

that' is really good news well im happy you have sorted your issue nothing worse than being worried to drive the car incase you cause more bloody damage...


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