# police abuse of power, a step too far?



## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

Before the usual suspects turn up, this is not a bash the cops thread..... im sure the officers involved were simply doing what tgey were told by thier superiors.

With the recent headlines about excessive stop and search statistics in scotland, and the police acused of being "out of control" do you think this is a step too far, and an abuse of power or privileges.

My wife came home after a girls night out and told me 4 police were on the door with the bouncers taking note of EVERYONES name and address and demanding people prodice ID, obviously people on a night out, especially young people would carry this as proof of age. If people excersised thier right to anonymity under the human rights act (told them they wernt getting thier name and addresse) the bouncers would refuse entry to the club. Hence ruining your night out.

Now I know people still had the choice of telling them to do one, but this would be at the expence of having a good trouble free innocent night out. I was pretty angry when she told me she had basically been blackmailed into giving out private information.

No explanation or reason was given.

It turns out this was happening at all 3 night clubs in the town.


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## spike (Dec 26, 2013)

seems a bizarre invasion of privacy, for non membership clubs.


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## Paul. (Apr 26, 2014)

Surely they have to have good reason to ask that information, just like they have to have good reason to pull you over. Out of interest, did your wife ask why they were asking & did they give a reason?

Could it have been a visible presence to stop drugs getting into the clubs perhaps?


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## Skeee (Jun 9, 2009)

Were they arrested for not having ID or simply refused entry?
If they then departed without producing ID were they photographed or followed home?
Were they abusive or did they use force to obtain ID?



Paul. said:


> Surely they have to have good reason to ask that information, just like they have to have good reason to pull you over. Out of interest, did your wife ask why they were asking & did they give a reason?
> 
> Could it have been a visible presence to stop drugs getting into the clubs perhaps?


 Asking proof of ID as condition of entry is a whole different ball game to being stopped in the street!


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## mstew (Mar 17, 2012)

Seems odd, most big places that are worried about this thing get an ID scanner. Does exactly the same thing, is very common, and obviously doesn't feel anywhere near as invasive. Just weird IMO :-|


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

Paul. said:


> Surely they have to have good reason to ask that information, just like they have to have good reason to pull you over. Out of interest, did your wife ask why they were asking & did they give a reason?
> 
> Could it have been a visible presence to stop drugs getting into the clubs perhaps?


Like I said no reason was given. I can understsnd a visible presence. But demanding private information from innocent members of the public is wrong. I understand they may have a good reason to stop drivers. Or speak to a person they may think resembles someone they are looking for (they still can't demand identification unless under some anti terror laws, 30 something woman heading into a nightclub fall into this group). But this doesn't justify asking for and writing down everyones name and private residence.

Im going to go in and ask them why they did it and what they have done with my wifes personal information.


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

Skeee said:


> Were they arrested for not having ID or simply refused entry?
> If they then departed without producing ID were they photographed or followed home?
> Were they abusive or did they use force to obtain ID?
> 
> ...


Apparently the bouncers just wouldn't let people in who refused to cooperate. Nobody was forced, blackmailed woukd be a better description. ID or we ruin your night out.


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

It was probably just a show of force. 
But in my opinion borderline breach of rights and very invasive.


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## Paul. (Apr 26, 2014)

Skeee said:


> Were they arrested for not having ID or simply refused entry?
> If they then departed without producing ID were they photographed or followed home?
> Were they abusive or did they use force to obtain ID?
> 
> ...


I agree. The police have nothing to do with who goes into private property so to get in the club you would only have to satisfy the door staff. I'd expect the police were there for a separate reason, unless the clubs had trouble with violent individuals or drugs that they had asked for help with. Has there been anything in the local papers/ tv news? Any campaign normally has publicity


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## Paul. (Apr 26, 2014)

brian1978 said:


> Im going to go in and ask them why they did it and what they have done with my wifes personal information.


Sounds like a sensible move. Good luck


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## Skeee (Jun 9, 2009)

brian1978 said:


> I'm going to go in and ask them why they did it and what they have done with my wifes personal information.


 If you let us know which station it is you're going to, then we can come and visit you! :lol:


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

Paul. said:


> Skeee said:
> 
> 
> > Were they arrested for not having ID or simply refused entry?
> ...


Nothing I know of. But its irrelevant, even if their was they have no buisness making innocent members of the public produce ID, its the UK, not north Korea. :?



Skeee said:


> brian1978 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm going to go in and ask them why they did it and what they have done with my wifes personal information.
> ...


Im fully aware of my civil rights, im sure I will be fine :lol:

If they wont tell me, I will make them.

https://www.gov.uk/make-a-freedom-of-in ... mation-act


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## Lollypop86 (Oct 26, 2013)

Bit excessive.....is there someone on the run? Lol

J
Xx


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

Lollypop86 said:


> Bit excessive.....is there someone on the run? Lol
> 
> J
> Xx


Once again, it really doesnt matter, you have a right to anonymity under section 8 of the human rights act. Although nobody was forced and all info was given freely, the circumstances (give us the info of we will punish you by not letting you in) it was asked in was not ideal, and to me very heavy handed and borderline breach of section 8.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

I think from a legal standpoint, there's no breach of any human rights. Entry into the club isn't a right, so any restrictions placed on entry can't be a breach of a right.


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## t'mill (Jul 31, 2012)

Who was actually asking for the patrons names and ID? The police or the door supervisors? Were they _demanding_ the info or simply asking for it?

If this was happening in 3 clubs in that town, then one could assume it could have been an initiative run by the licensing department targeting the 3 main worst offending establishments in that town. Who knows?

When it comes down to it, if anyone didn't want to give their names or show ID, then move onto another venue, of which there are probably dozens in the town


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## Skeee (Jun 9, 2009)

brian1978 said:


> Once again, it really doesn't matter, you have a right to anonymity under section 8 of the human rights act.
> * Although nobody was forced and all info was given freely,* the circumstances
> (*give us the info or we will punish you* by not letting you in) it was asked in was not ideal, and to me very heavy handed and borderline breach of section 8.


 Pushing over a drunken old man who's staggering around minding his own business is 'heavy handed.' What you've described is not.


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## igotone (Mar 10, 2010)

It's a private club and they can set any rules they like to people seeking admittance. No one is being forced to comply it's a simple choice for the individual. It's no different to you setting ground rules for people coming into your home - if they don't like it they have a choice.

As for why the police were there, there could be many reasons for their attendance, we simply don't know why they were there or what incidents had prompted their presence.


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## Shug750S (Feb 6, 2012)

Personally, I'd walk from any place demanding my details, and spend my cash elsewhere.

Does seem strange, as my kids reckon most clubs have ID readers which let you in or flag up alerts...

Guess there might have been a reason, but if she didn't ask then we're none the wiser.


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## Danny1 (Sep 2, 2010)

Shug750S said:


> Personally, I'd walk from any place demanding my details, and spend my cash elsewhere.
> 
> Does seem strange, as my kids reckon most clubs have ID readers which let you in or flag up alerts...
> 
> Guess there might have been a reason, but if she didn't ask then we're none the wiser.


This! I wouldn't have given them anything and would have just moved on elsewhere or just got off home.


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## jamman (May 6, 2002)

R.O.A.R.


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

Shug750S said:


> Personally, I'd walk from any place demanding my details, and spend my cash elsewhere.
> 
> Does seem strange, as my kids reckon most clubs have ID readers which let you in or flag up alerts...
> 
> Guess there might have been a reason, but if she didn't ask then we're none the wiser.


Aparently the reason that was given was "its just a new thing we are doing"

I think its a step in the wrong direction, a lot of people have been talking about it. Article 8 in tge bill of human rights enshrines your right to anonymity and privacy, and although this still stood. Punishing you by not allowing you to continue your night if you didnt cooperate was sailing close to the wind with regards to article 8. 
People should not be asked to give personal details unless the police believe them to be up to something or have commited or witnessed an offence. They must also state which offence they are suspected of or thought to have witnessed. Im fairly certain this is law.
If you are just going about your lawfull buisness you shouldnt be questioned like this. Not inside or going into a private club.

What did they do with all this information?. Now that hundreds of innocent law abiding citizens have been coerced into handing over personal details. It seems very odd indeed.

And pointless, as if you were up to something or wanted by police you would just refuse to give identification, walk away or not aproach the club.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

brian1978 said:


> Article 8 in tge bill of human rights enshrines your right to anonymity and privacy, and although this still stood. Punishing you by not allowing you to continue your night if you didnt cooperate was sailing close to the wind with regards to article 8.


Unless the Police were forcing people to identify themselves, I can't understand how this can be a violation of article 8. If this was just the club security doing checks and refusing entry to people who wouldn't show ID, would it also be an issue?

The only thing about this that I'd be curious about is what they'll do with the data they've gathered and how long it will be held for.


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

Spandex said:


> brian1978 said:
> 
> 
> > Article 8 in tge bill of human rights enshrines your right to anonymity and privacy, and although this still stood. Punishing you by not allowing you to continue your night if you didnt cooperate was sailing close to the wind with regards to article 8.
> ...


I never said it was breaking article 8, I said it was pushing the boundrys of it. Nobody as far as I know was forced, but given the choice of give us info or ruin a good night out when you have done NOTHING wrong was a bit rough.

Had they simply said they are conducting an investigation and asked people to cooperate with no consequences im sure 99% of people would have anyway.


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)




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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

brian1978 said:


> I never said it was breaking article 8, I said it was pushing the boundrys of it. Nobody as far as I know was forced, but given the choice of give us info or ruin a good night out when you have done NOTHING wrong was a bit rough.


Ok, I can't see how it's even pushing the boundaries of it. It was completely voluntary. It's no different to the club security restricting access only to people who provide valid ID, which is something that happens in many clubs.

I've had various nights out 'ruined' by lack of ID, incorrect footwear, even incorrect gender - when security decide the night has turned into a sausage-fest and they're only letting blokes in if there are women in their group. Annoying as it is, it has nothing to do with any legal human rights. Not even remotely.


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## Shug750S (Feb 6, 2012)

If enough people object and vote with their feet the club will stop asking, or go bust.

My guess is there's been some issues locally and plod are just stepping up the pressure.

Can't really see why anyone would get stressed over this, as previously stated I'd either show ID to keep them happy and get in, but much more likely go elsewhere where I could drink without hassle..

You pays your money and takes your choice


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## jamman (May 6, 2002)

I would guess they are dealing with an underage drinking problem in the clubs.

So they blanket check everyone so as not to be accused of discriminating.

I have never had a problem giving my details to the police and can't really see the problem.

I'm sure they enjoyed every minute of dealing with the ever friendly general public.


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## Shug750S (Feb 6, 2012)

jamman said:


> I would guess they are dealing with an underage drinking problem in the clubs.
> 
> So they blanket check everyone so as not to be accused of discriminating.
> 
> ...


+1, but I could never see the objections to ID cards either...


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## Mr Funk (Apr 27, 2014)

To be honest, I can't really see the big deal.
I've been in the Hospitality industry for all my working life (bar/nightclub manager for 11 years, hospitality assessor for 9 and now a consultant) and can remember us having police checks on the door back in the '90's.
It really doesn't impact on your life unless you let it and I really can't understand why people get so wouldn't up about giving over details to the police. I'm hardly the biggest fan but they're there to do a really shitty job in the poorest of conditions.
Chances are you'll be monitored all night and day in CCTV anyway and the clubs normally have id checking equipment.
If you were really that concerned about annonimity you'd cancel your insurance, bin your credit cards, remove yourself from the interest, sell your car and most of your worldly possessions and go off and life in a secluded woodland somewhere bleak.


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## prop135 (Aug 8, 2011)

Oh the joys of living in the UK. We do not have a single identity document. Driving licence sole purpose is to demonstrate an entitlement to drive and the passport to cross national borders. Actually I state a falsehood. We do have a single source of id in the UK, it's called the biometric residence permit so as long as you are a non UK or EU citizen living in the UK for longer than 6 months you can go clubbing lol.

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## Pugwash69 (Jun 12, 2012)

When I was Spain I got my "NIF" assigned at a police station. I had to show my passport at most supermarkets and certainly when buying a SIM card. You are remarkably anonymous in the UK on the face of it.

Were they noting down these hundreds of names and addresses or just looking at them?

I think the personal information can be kept on record so long until they have to delete it. A company I used to work for had a special pass to hold out-of-date information. We had test payroll systems in with whole company personnel records to play with (for testing purposes).


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## prop135 (Aug 8, 2011)

I suspect that the police were trying to deal with something as simple as underage drinking or ID docs offences but may have been trawling for wanted people or capturing details to aid in the investigation of any offence that occurred that evening. The later is almost certainly unlawful under the Data Protection Act but I suspect the other reasons are not.

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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

Pugwash69 said:


> When I was Spain I got my "NIF" assigned at a police station. I had to show my passport at most supermarkets and certainly when buying a SIM card. You are remarkably anonymous in the UK on the face of it.
> 
> Were they noting down these hundreds of names and addresses or just looking at them?
> 
> I think the personal information can be kept on record so long until they have to delete it. A company I used to work for had a special pass to hold out-of-date information. We had test payroll systems in with whole company personnel records to play with (for testing purposes).


Writing them all down. And I doubt my bearded 42 year old mate who also said he was asked was being asked to prove his age :?

It was nothing to do with looking for under age drinkers.


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## Pugwash69 (Jun 12, 2012)

Us bearded 42 year olds can still cause havok! Usually from falling over.


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