# Helping a Yank understand



## CWM3 (Mar 4, 2012)

Bradley Wiggins as explained to an American


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## pw1960 (Aug 3, 2012)

[smiley=mexicanwave.gif] [smiley=toff.gif] [smiley=pimp2.gif] [smiley=policeman.gif] [smiley=rifle.gif] [smiley=stop.gif] [smiley=stupid.gif]


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## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

Sadly, that pretty much sums it up (or at least until they catch up with his pharmacologist).

It's such a shame that Armstrong is so belittled these days, even allowing for the drugs he used to enhance his training, he still had to train his ass off to get his 7 TdF titles and then he actually had to ride the tours. The truth is, they were ALL on drugs - look at Indurain etc. - all of them were on meds and it was tacitly encouraged/ignored for decades.

Even Team Sky had to have a clear-out after Armstrong and they were supposedly THE clean team.

It really wouldn't surprise me at all if there is still a secret drug culture in professional cycling.


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## CWM3 (Mar 4, 2012)

Its not a shame that he is belittled, some of us in cycling needed someone to look up too, and many believed in him.

But he lied, lied and then some more.

He has got what he deserved, and hopefully more coming.

Drugs are evident in most sports unfortunately, until there is an iron will to expose the cheats and banish them for ever, nothing will change.

It makes me puke that 'reformed cheats' are allowed back in after serving a ban.


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## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

Merckx, van Springel, Thevenet, Dard, Borreau, Maertens, van den Broucke, van der Poel, Moser, Delgado, Fignon, Kelly, Skibby, Chiapucci, Roche, Indurain, Hamburger, Pantani (a personal hero of mine!), Aldag, Boelts, Leipheimer, Riis, Simeoni, Zabel, Abdoujapourov, Brochard, Casagrande, Dufaux, Leblanc, Massi, Moreau, Virenque, Zuelle, Millar, Simpson...

I could go on a VERY long time, but the fact is ALL the riders on the tour were on something at one time or another. To suddenly turn around and say these people are monsters is nonsensical. They did what they had to do to to WIN. Even just to be competitive they needed to be on some form of "help" because if you didn't dope you weren't competitive.

Armstrong tested positive on a couple of occasions, but the truth is, he was just better at not getting caught than his contemporaries. Are they still heroes to cyclists? I think they should be because even on the drugs they still had to do the training. The drugs didn't make them ride better, they just made them train better.


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## Mike007 (Aug 15, 2012)

wja96 said:


> Merckx, van Springel, Thevenet, Dard, Borreau, Maertens, van den Broucke, van der Poel, Moser, Delgado, Fignon, Kelly, Skibby, Chiapucci, Roche, Indurain, Hamburger, Pantani (a personal hero of mine!), Aldag, Boelts, Leipheimer, Riis, Simeoni, Zabel, Abdoujapourov, Brochard, Casagrande, Dufaux, Leblanc, Massi, Moreau, Virenque, Zuelle, Millar, Simpson...
> 
> I could go on a VERY long time, but the fact is ALL the riders on the tour were on something at one time or another. To suddenly turn around and say these people are monsters is nonsensical. They did what they had to do to to WIN. Even just to be competitive they needed to be on some form of "help" because if you didn't dope you weren't competitive.
> 
> Armstrong tested positive on a couple of occasions, but the truth is, he was just better at not getting caught than his contemporaries. Are they still heroes to cyclists? I think they should be because even on the drugs they still had to do the training. The drugs didn't make them ride better, they just made them train better.


I think this is very well put mate. I'm a massive cycling fan and a huge Armstrong fan. Still am. I was gutted that he has been taking drugs though. Really gutted. But I agree totally, if I take the drugs he was on it doesn't suddenly allow me to go out this year and win the tour. I really wonder just how much it improves someone like Armstrongs performance. Fact is he was ultra fit anyway. It proper disturbs me all this crap that's going on in professional cycling. 
Perhaps they should allow them all to take performance enhancing stuff legally. It's not just drugs they use to improve their performance. What about the sneaky Vinicorof, yes spelt terrible wrong. What he did he went and did loads of high altitude training months before the tour. Then whilst doing that he would drain a pint of his own blood out of himself which was highly oxygenated. Then on the tour he would put one of his own pints back into himself say every other day. I watched that tour. His performance was massively improved on the days he'd put this blood into himself. There was no drugs in him just his own extra blood. But the fact is as you say he still had to go out and do the high altitude training. 
Armstrong would do 20,000 miles training just for the Tour de France. This is massive massive mileage. I used to do around 3 to 400 a week. Just doing that small amount compared to Armstrongs made me mega fit and I carried very little fat. So it does show that his training was massive, sometimes he'd climb Alp de huez twice in one day, one after the other. Those that have never cycled competively should go out and try and ride 100 miles none stop. So tough. 
Hopefully they will sort this mess out and we can just get on with enjoying the best and toughest race in the world.


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

Loved that!!


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## CWM3 (Mar 4, 2012)

Not sure where that leaves us then Mike, massive amount of young people cycle for both pleasure and in competition in this country alone, I really can't agree that we should be saying to them, 'look the only way the Pros can perform is by taking drugs, so sorry kid, but we are going to have to pump you full the shit as well, so you can win'

Nope, don't think what be will be a vote winner IMO.


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## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

CWM3 said:


> Not sure where that leaves us then Mike, massive amount of young people cycle for both pleasure and in competition in this country alone, I really can't agree that we should be saying to them, 'look the only way the Pros can perform is by taking drugs, so sorry kid, but we are going to have to pump you full the shit as well, so you can win'
> 
> Nope, don't think what be will be a vote winner IMO.


That's not what anyone is saying (I hope).

Doping is wrong, no-one is arguing anything other than doping is wrong.

What I (and I think possibly Mike007 is saying) is that doping didn't start or end with Lance Armstrong and that even if he was doped up to the eyeballs, so was everyone else, he was just better organised and even then, he was superhuman in his training. I've done one (ONE, just one) stage of the tour. I did it over 2 days and it wasn't even a stage with proper climb on it. And I did it on a bike with a climbing gear setup. These guys are ridiculous in terms of what they do, and I don't think that Lance Armstrong's achievements should be derided the way they currently are when the guy was clearly very, very, very, good indeed. And let's not forget the fact that three of his tour victories followed his recovery from testicular cancer. That's one method of weight saving I'm not investigating!


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

wja96 said:


> That's not what anyone is saying (I hope).
> 
> Doping is wrong, no-one is arguing anything other than doping is wrong.
> 
> What I (and I think possibly Mike007 is saying) is that doping didn't start or end with Lance Armstrong and that even if he was doped up to the eyeballs, so was everyone else, he was just better organised and even then, he was superhuman in his training. I've done one (ONE, just one) stage of the tour. I did it over 2 days and it wasn't even a stage with proper climb on it. And I did it on a bike with a climbing gear setup. These guys are ridiculous in terms of what they do, and I don't think that Lance Armstrong's achievements should be derided the way they currently are when the guy was clearly very, very, very, good indeed. And let's not forget the fact that three of his tour victories followed his recovery from testicular cancer. That's one method of weight saving I'm not investigating!


I don't think you can really argue that doing something wrong is somehow less wrong if everyone else does it too. If anything, the fact that they were all doing it just adds to the complete stupidity of the whole situation.

The fact is, doping was against the rules. This means Lance, and everyone else doing it didn't win by those rules, which means they didn't win full stop (if every rider took the same short cut on a stage, the end result would technically be a 'fair' race, but none of them would have actually won because none of them would have completed it). So, what 'achievements' should we applaud Lance for, if not winning races? Training with the help of drugs?


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## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

Spandex said:


> wja96 said:
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> > That's not what anyone is saying (I hope).
> ...


Could you ride the tour - with or without doping? That's the achievement that everyone seems to be forgetting in the stampede to jump on the lance-bashing wagon.

Certainly, the guy was doping. But he still had to do the training and ride the race to win it. That's not easy. Especially when you're recovering from testicular cancer.


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## CWM3 (Mar 4, 2012)

I prey some of the posters on here are never involved in youth cycling, what a fooking example you would set.

The bottom line is that only a few people on his planet can be pro riders and win major races, the truth is now, that Armstrongs legacy is that we will never know if he could have done it clean, but the bottom line is that the guy cheated millions of fans and more importantly, millions that become interested in cycling due to both his record in the Tour and also due to his cancer battle, including tens of millions of impressionable kids around the globe, lets not forget, we are not talking about the average Joe racer, but someone who was a complete legend, and still the prick has not got enough about himself to come out and come clean.

I don't give a flying F about who was cheating and who was not anymore, it's done history, but this guy just lied at every turn, 
They are quite right in erasing his record from the books.

We are trying to show the up and coming cyclists that it can be done clean, Sky have gone out on a limb, as have BC and just look at the results we are turning out. Lets hope he gets destroyed by litigation in the States by all those backers who were deceived.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but to try and justify this pricks career makes me puke.


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

As a keen cyclist my self ,,,,,, it is interesting how a very good case can be put for the two totally oposed sides to the argument !!! ,,,,,,,,, personmally I don't care about the doping , it maybe a strange point of view but I think there are inherant dangers in taking performance enhancing sups and if riders want to take that risk to their health then ok


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

what everyone seems to miss in this thread is not the fact that he took drugs or even that he got caught, its the fact that he is so arrogant in his own self being to still deny it. i suppose if you say not me often enough you actually start to believe ya own bs lol


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## CWM3 (Mar 4, 2012)

Gazzer said:


> what everyone seems to miss in this thread is not the fact that he took drugs or even that he got caught, its the fact that he is so arrogant in his own self being to still deny it. i suppose if you say not me often enough you actually start to believe ya own bs lol


Check out Gazzer, exactly what I said in my post.................


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

CWM3 said:


> Gazzer said:
> 
> 
> > what everyone seems to miss in this thread is not the fact that he took drugs or even that he got caught, its the fact that he is so arrogant in his own self being to still deny it. i suppose if you say not me often enough you actually start to believe ya own bs lol
> ...


ahhh sozzz m8 missed your post, bloody true though isn't it lol


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## CWM3 (Mar 4, 2012)

Gazzer said:


> CWM3 said:
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Yep, when he has start shelling out to all those companies suing him, penny should drop then, think I will ask for my dosh back on the pile of lies he wrote in his book


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## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

Wow, it must be great to be as saintly as you guys. Either that or as hypocritical.

The fact is that pretty much everyone in professional sport cheats in one way or another. And most people have cheated or lied in one way or another in their lives. You sinless types casting stones must feel great from up their on your moral heights.


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## NoMark (Jul 6, 2011)

Where's that popcorn smiley?

:roll:


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## CWM3 (Mar 4, 2012)

wja96 said:


> Wow, it must be great to be as saintly as you guys. Either that or as hypocritical.
> 
> The fact is that pretty much everyone in professional sport cheats in one way or another. And most people have cheated or lied in one way or another in their lives. You sinless types casting stones must feel great from up their on your moral heights.


Nothing to do with being saintly or hypocritical, just not prepared to be a lamb and walk around with blinkers on.

No ones perfect, thats a given, but the cnut has got what he deserved. If you happy to accept what he has done is fair game, then good for you, we all have different levels of morals and principles.

I am looking at he bigger picture for the future development of the sport at what it means at grassroots level, and will not accept that's what we will teach the kids as 'its OK to be like Lance, they are all at it and it's the only way to win'


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

wja96 said:


> Wow, it must be great to be as saintly as you guys. Either that or as hypocritical.
> 
> The fact is that pretty much everyone in professional sport cheats in one way or another. And most people have cheated or lied in one way or another in their lives. You sinless types casting stones must feel great from up their on your moral heights.


me saintly???? lmao........not on ya nellie m8, ive caused more crap on here and problems in my short time than super rs or de-messiah i think. difference is unlike those two or your bestest buddy lance. when i footed up i put my hands up and appologised straight away.

sir lance of the order of cheatalot still thinks he has done no wrong or has been advised to deny it in case he has to pay back all of his winnings and sponsorship.


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## CWM3 (Mar 4, 2012)

[smiley=cheers.gif] Yep I'll second that matey


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## oceans7 (Oct 20, 2009)

They should give them all lsd take a wheel off their fucking bikes and see what ensues. Should make the TDF a tad more interesting and I'm fairly sure they won't be giving much of a shit for the yellow t shirt the one up front gets to wear. 

ps Happy New Year one and all.


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## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

Gazzer said:


> wja96 said:
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> 
> > Wow, it must be great to be as saintly as you guys. Either that or as hypocritical.
> ...


So it's the fact he won't apologise or admit it that annoys you? And let's just be clear - you are a cheat. But you only apologise when you get caught, and that makes cheating OK?


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

wja96 said:


> Gazzer said:
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Jees you have the Lance thing bad m8!!! it doesn't annoy me one bit tbh, i just stated the obvious that he is a liar, and for him to come full circle imho in peoples eyes he needs to man up and admit his wrong doings. he will be forgiven in time as do all of the cheats in life that get caught and then own up. it is human nature to try to get something for nothing and from an early age we have all cheated somewhere down the line trust me. let it go as this is now boring as a topic.......you love the guy and great. many dont and for good reasons and that is their right to have an opinion also.


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## CWM3 (Mar 4, 2012)

WJA......I have finally tracked you down,you ARE Lance Armstrongs secret love child, come on now, don't be coy, own up....no one will blame you, Daddies the cheat, we all know its not your fault


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## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

CWM3 said:


> WJA......I have finally tracked you down,you ARE Lance Armstrongs secret love child, come on now, don't be coy, own up....no one will blame you, Daddies the cheat, we all know its not your fault


I wish I had a fraction of his athletic genetic potential.


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## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

Gazzer said:


> wja96 said:
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Of course, everyone has a right to express an opinion but the hypocrisy on display in this thread is quite staggering.


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

what hypocrasy have i shown in this thread? i have only stated the facts that Lance is a liar and should own up to it. i have also stated that i respect your views as i and others have theirs, some i respect some i don't in all honesty. so i fail to see the problem apart from you refuse to allow other views on the subject to maybe be right.


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

Does lance actually deny taking drugs or does he just , correctly , state that he has never failed a dope test


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

roddy said:


> Does lance actually deny taking drugs or does he just , correctly , state that he has never failed a dope test


good point Roddy......will look into it m8


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## CWM3 (Mar 4, 2012)

I know we all moan and bitch and at times totally disagree with one another, but it just shows the power of constructive mature discussion, and for that I have to take my hat off to WJA............looks like he has got Daddy thinking, seems amazing that all these official organisations out there have come to a dead end, a little ole TT Forums Flameroom might just have made the difference

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/05/sport ... .html?_r=0


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

yeah but only *IF* he was able to continue his career??? he is still arrogant enough to think he can or might be able to do a trade off.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

roddy said:


> Does lance actually deny taking drugs or does he just , correctly , state that he has never failed a dope test


Just to answer this, as I don't think anyone else has, Lance has specifically denied doping a number of times:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/others ... laims.html


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

Spandy ,,,,,, I just read that report but no where in it it does Lance actually deny taking of dope ,,,,,my question still stands


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

roddy said:


> Spandy ,,,,,, I just read that report but no where in it it does Lance actually deny taking of dope ,,,,,my question still stands


The video on that page is a compilation of interviews where Lance is asked about doping. In at least one of them he explicitly denies it.


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

Spandex said:


> roddy said:
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> 
> > Spandy ,,,,,, I just read that report but no where in it it does Lance actually deny taking of dope ,,,,,my question still stands
> ...


Ok , I will have a further look


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## CWM3 (Mar 4, 2012)

Maybe its all about to change and he will come clean............

A report today...

_More from British Cycling President Brian Cookson on the Today Programme regarding Lance Armstrong's forthcoming interview with Oprah Winfrey on 17 January: "What Lance was engaged in allegedly and seems to have been proved, was not just popping a few pills behind the changing rooms, he was involved in sophisticated cheating that would have involved a large number of people doing things that were not just breaking sport rules but were fraudulent and criminal.

"He really needs to tell the truth about all of that and alleged bribes and covers ups. That's the real issue that needs to come out in the open."_


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

CWM3 said:


> Maybe its all about to change and he will come clean............
> 
> A report today...
> 
> ...


Even Oprah has said that it was a frustrating interview with him, due to no real straight answers in response to her questions.


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

Gaz , I believe this show goes oot tonite in " the land of the free " but do you know if any one here is airing it, either live or recorded


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

roddy said:


> Gaz , I believe this show goes oot tonite in " the land of the free " but do you know if any one here is airing it, either live or recorded


It's on the Discovery Channel:


> Watch the two part interview with Lance Armstrong interview hosted by Oprah Winfrey. Part One this Friday 18th January at 2am and repeated Friday the 18th January at 8pm and Part Two Saturday 19th January at 2am and repeated Saturday 19th January at 8pm only on Discovery Channel.


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

Good man spandy , thank you ,, I thot for a moment there that it was going to be the Disney channel ( may have been more app )


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

typical isn't it i got shot of my tv package as it was relentless drivel aired over and over again........then something decent comes out lol. will have to d,load it or watch it on line.


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## CWM3 (Mar 4, 2012)

Tick Tock, Tick Tock, Tick Tock,

Just waiting for the cheats defenders to roll in here and excuse away his corrupt success.................................


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

CWM3 said:


> Tick Tock, Tick Tock, Tick Tock,
> 
> Just waiting for the cheats defenders to roll in here and excuse away his corrupt success.................................


now come on it wasn't really cheating! it was playing on a level playing field :roll: :lol:


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## CWM3 (Mar 4, 2012)

Gazzer said:


> CWM3 said:
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> > Tick Tock, Tick Tock, Tick Tock,
> ...


LOL, just that his part of the field was downhill, the clean riders end was uphill


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

I am sure he didn't really mean to take them , I heard a big boy made him do it and then ran away !


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