# DSG is it worth the risk?



## rib333 (Sep 8, 2009)

Thinking of buying a used TT, and would really like to buy the stronic. The thing is I've read about loads of problems on this forum with this type of gearbox.
Is buying a stronic worth the risk? I feel that as I'm buying a used car it's more likely to have problems that if I buy it new (as the owner will have a stronger incentive to sell it).

Would appreciate any advice from the forum. 
Thanks


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## R5T (Apr 24, 2008)

No, i would keep my hands of it even if i got one for free.
It's a faulty piece of machinery, even after all these years people still have problems with it.


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## spidermack (Sep 24, 2009)

I had a DSG Gti for 3 years and my pal owns the car now. I never had one problem with it and it's still going strong

I loved the DSG smooth, quick changes, better economy, lower emmisons + I could just leave it in auto around town. Oh it sounds cool also.

So I bought an S-tronic TTS. I ain't had one prob with the S-tronic box in my TTS either.


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## MINI-TTGuy (Sep 29, 2008)

Avoid it like the plague - absolute junk! Audi were forced to guarantee it for the earlier of ten years or 100,000 miles in America - as usual the Americans were having none of their nonsense, and Audi even had to reimburse people who had previously paid to have their's fixed. The warranty doesn't cover anywhere in Europe.

The message "DO NOT BUY AN S-TRONIC TT" should be in big flashing size 78 font letters on the welcome banner of this forum! :lol: :lol:

In fact, not only is S-Tronic unreliable, it's bloody well dangerous!


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## TortToise (Aug 22, 2009)

DSG/S-tronic is a great technology but it can't be denied that it is more complex and therefore more prone to problems than a standard manual box.

If you buy from new and do experience a problem it's going to be covered by warranty for three years.

Likewise, even a secondhand car < 3 years old is going to have some warranty up the three year mark.

Despite all the attention that problem stories get, bear in mind that you're not going to get an honest picture from forum posts as simply put, people with no problems aren't going to start treads of how they're experiencing trouble-free motoring in their S-tronic TT. i.e. The overall chances of getting a problem are less than you might think from reading the internet.

Personally, I love the S-tronic on my new TT. I think it's one of the best things about my car. However - if it started playing up then I might not be so positive.


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## R5T (Apr 24, 2008)

TortToise said:


> However - if it started playing up then I might not be so positive.


And in time it will do. :wink:


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## pars_andy (Dec 10, 2009)

So do you reckon it has a 100 percent failure rate in what? 3 years?


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## dog2_99 (May 6, 2010)

pars_andy said:


> So do you reckon it has a 100 percent failure rate in what? 3 years?


This is starting to worry me; what actually goes wrong? When I test drove one with it i was really impressed!


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## pars_andy (Dec 10, 2009)

I'm not going to worry about it. There's no point. I've just got mine and I love it.


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## R5T (Apr 24, 2008)

Mechanical there are no problems i think, but software wise. :?


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## bozzy96 (May 26, 2009)

R5T said:


> TortToise said:
> 
> 
> > However - if it started playing up then I might not be so positive.
> ...


Yeah, like you know, does yours !!! :?


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## pars_andy (Dec 10, 2009)

You certainly seem very negative about audi at the moment R5T. I've noticed it on a number of threads. Is there any particular reason for this?


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## hooting_owl (Sep 3, 2008)

i would not own an s-tronic tt beyond the end of its warranty. great idea - but too too many repeating reliability issues and it will be painfully expensive to repair.


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## MXS (May 10, 2010)

I am in the same boat as rib333! Can the auto box really be that bad? It is rapidly putting me off an automatic, one of the main reasons for switching from Merc to a TT!!


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## dog2_99 (May 6, 2010)

What is it that actually goes wrong? My pending order is looking worrying :?


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## andya (Jun 17, 2003)

I've had two TTs, each for 3 years and not a hint of a problem with the DSG in either. My next car will be a DSG too.

I'm sure there are plently of people who've had issues with the manual gearboxes so bit harsh to focus on DSG being a particular issue


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## Wallsendmag (Feb 12, 2004)

Worth the risk ? Yes


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## MXS (May 10, 2010)

wallsendmag said:


> Worth the risk ? Yes


Thanks for putting my mind at rest.


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## Taipei-TT (Apr 6, 2009)

dog2_99 said:


> What is it that actually goes wrong? My pending order is looking worrying :?


Dog...I've been through the ringer with my DSG.

2 mechatronic units
1 entirely new transmission

and finally
1 complete solution

All of the work was done under warranty and I was given courtesy cars (A4s  ) and Audi offered to pick me up etc, so there was very little inconvenience to me.

Would I buy a DSG again? If I lived in a market where I could get the MT, I would buy a MT. Not because the DSG is bad, I like the MT better. HOWEVER....there is no denying that my DSG is better at shifting than any human out there. There is documented evidence too when (5th Gear?) did a back to back track test with two TTs...one MT and DSG.

After all the work done on my transmission, it is finally flawless and has been that way for 3 months now. My next car will be a dual clutch...just not sure if it will have 4 rings or a blue and white emblem on the hood.


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## MXS (May 10, 2010)

[/quote]

Dog...I've been through the ringer with my DSG.

2 mechatronic units
1 entirely new transmission

and finally
1 complete solution

All of the work was done under warranty and I was given courtesy cars (A4s  ) and Audi offered to pick me up etc, so there was very little inconvenience to me.

Would I buy a DSG again? If I lived in a market where I could get the MT, I would buy a MT. Not because the DSG is bad, I like the MT better. HOWEVER....there is no denying that my DSG is better at shifting than any human out there. There is documented evidence too when (5th Gear?) did a back to back track test with two TTs...one MT and DSG.

After all the work done on my transmission, it is finally flawless and has been that way for 3 months now. My next car will be a dual clutch...just not sure if it will have 4 rings or a blue and white emblem on the hood.[/quote]

Thanks for the detailed post


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## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

DAG/S-tronic is not an automatic gearbox. If, like most American owners, you drive it like a torque-convertor automatic it will fail because you will burn out the clutches. If it's not serviced properly ie. expensively, it will fail. Beyond the warranty period you have no option if it fails but to get another gearbox. No repairs, no bodges, it has to be another gearbox. Then there are the issues on the selector units (what Audi call mechatronic units) - these are very prone to failure and again, they are mightily expensive to fix if they go wrong.

I also don't like how S-tronic drives. The pause between putting your foot down at a roundabout or junction and the car pulling away, the stupidly early upshifts, the lack of ability in many cars to reverse backwards up slopes.

Personally, I bought a manual this time round after two DSG equipped VWs both gave issues. I certainly wouldn't buy one without a copper-bottomed warranty that would last for the life of the car on my ownership and even then I'd be worried about resale. VAG have proved time and again that they don't care much about ownership after the warranty period is expired (Mk 1 TT Dashboards anyone?) and the fact that the cars have dreadful reputations for Autobox failures in the US would tend to suggest there is a fire somewhere because there is certainly smoke...

Don't do it! - get a manual and smile while you drive it!


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## robokn (Feb 21, 2006)

I have had DSG for three years and remapped for two of those years without it missing a beat wouldn't swap it at all


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## davelincs (Jan 1, 2010)

its a brilliant gear box as far as i am concerned, would never go back to manual


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## pars_andy (Dec 10, 2009)

Might be worth shopping around for warranty cover once it gets past 3 years old. This might be a good idea anyway depending on your mileage. 
The gearbox is an absolute joy to use though.


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## bozzy96 (May 26, 2009)

pars_andy said:


> You certainly seem very negative about audi at the moment R5T. I've noticed it on a number of threads. Is there any particular reason for this?


Hiya Andy, Take no notice of R5T all he does is cut and paste pictures all day and give his opinion on something he doesn't even own !!!


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## j9sht (Mar 13, 2009)

Had my S-Tronic now for 14 months, absolutely no problems  (Hope that's not tempting fate :!: )

Don't beleive the hype from the neysayers, you are at equal risk from lots of other things going wrong. Lets face it just luck (or unluck) of the draw.

Just enjoy leaving the manual boys for dust at the lights :twisted: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## sTTranger (Oct 21, 2008)

j9sht said:


> Just enjoy leaving the manual boys for dust at the lights :twisted: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Anytime mate anytime :twisted:


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## mrb191333 (Nov 16, 2009)

> DAG/S-tronic is not an automatic gearbox. If, like most American owners, you drive it like a torque-convertor automatic it will fail because you will burn out the clutches. If it's not serviced properly ie. expensively, it will fail. Beyond the warranty period you have no option if it fails but to get another gearbox. No repairs, no bodges, it has to be another gearbox. Then there are the issues on the selector units (what Audi call mechatronic units) - these are very prone to failure and again, they are mightily expensive to fix if they go wrong.


Unsure as to what you mean about driving it like most American owners??????????
What do we do so differently that will increase the failure rate?
Mike


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## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

mrb191333 said:


> Unsure as to what you mean about driving it like most American owners??????????
> What do we do so differently that will increase the failure rate?
> Mike


Sit with the car in D at any time it's not moving mainly. It doesn't matter on a conventional automatic but on a DSG if the footbreak isn't fully on then you're riding the clutch, Putting it in P and letting it lurch to a locked state instead of applying the handbrake is also pretty aggressive on the DSG transmission.


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## mrb191333 (Nov 16, 2009)

wja96 said:


> mrb191333 said:
> 
> 
> > Unsure as to what you mean about driving it like most American owners??????????
> ...


I do sit with it in D at stops.....but they are reasonably few as I do not live in a large city. I do maintain good pressure on the foot brake [although when I do that I find it mushy and if you push very hard it 'whooshes' and goes to the stop, works...but don't like the mushy feel...fluid full and car only 4000 mi...so essentially new]...I do not put it In P except when parking......and the call is at full dead stop. Most of my prior Audi's have been manual, most recently an S4....never had problems with either other manuals/clutches or automatics. Only replaced one clutch in a V8 mustang after 110, 000 miles. Really not sure how else to drive it.....I picked the DSG over a manual [3.2].....and fortunately, IF I have a problem I have the 100, 000 mile/10 year warranty....and I am the ONLY driver


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## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

mrb191333 said:


> I do not put it In P except when parking......and the call is at full dead stop.


With the handbrake on? If not the car will roll a little forwards of backwards until it lurches to a locked stop.

If the car is stopped, push the lever to N as that way it's definitely declutched. Drive it like a manual that doesn't have a clutch, which is exactly what it is.


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## racingdave (Jun 20, 2009)

Love my s-tronic no issues after 14 months!!

Dave [smiley=freak.gif]


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

deleted


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## chrishumes (Jun 16, 2008)

i wouldnt take a chance after the amount ive researched on line. i actually bought once a couple of months ago, a seat altea with dsg, nearly 60k on the clock. took it to get serviced and the mechanic said he had seen a few explode due to the flywheel part rattling then coming away from the gearbox, in a golf he drove. he said mine was starting to make a similar noise but instead of replacing (£1000), im going to see how long it goes for. this could be scaremongering, but who knows.

then theres the electronic issues....

if its in warranty, fair enough, but if buying second hand i would be weary.

i do love it mind, makes the car a doddle to drive


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## dbm (Apr 17, 2008)

I've had two DSG cars now - A3 3.2 and the TTS. I had some mechatronic problems with the A3, but I was driving it wrong (putting the car in N before coming to a stop - don't do this!). My second one has been flawless. The first car I drove for about 35k miles, and so far my TTS has done over 40k miles without missing a beat.

Any device can fail, and the more complex your car the more opportunities there are for problems. But the risks are still small - don't you think you would have read about this in the print media if it was a serious issue?

Enjoy your S-Tronic car, just drive it with a bit of mechanical empathy like you would any car.

Cheers,
Dan


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## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

Toshiba said:


> 2 years, no issues ignore the haters.


I've done 6 years and over 240,000 miles with DSG gearboxes and frankly they do not wear well. It's not that I'm a hater, I'm the voice of jaded experience. While they're rolling, the gearbox is smooth as butter and faster than a very fast thing. And if it crawled forward like a proper auto, reversed backwards up slopes and had slightly less scary drive out of junctions, I'd be an unequivocal lover of DSG/S-tronic.


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## powerplay (Feb 8, 2008)

dbm said:


> I had some mechatronic problems with the A3, but I was driving it wrong (putting the car in N before coming to a stop - don't do this!)


Oh - why not? I do this quite frequently - can't see anything anywhere in the manual that says not to do it?


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## dbm (Apr 17, 2008)

powerplay said:


> dbm said:
> 
> 
> > I had some mechatronic problems with the A3, but I was driving it wrong (putting the car in N before coming to a stop - don't do this!)
> ...


The gearbox developed a very jerky behaviour when pulling away from standstill. It was a very unpleasent behaviour, making controlled starts very difficult whether they were smooth or fast.

Cheers,
Dan


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## pars_andy (Dec 10, 2009)

I read elsewhere that coasting in neutral does not give the gearbox enough oil. It expects the vehicle to be stationary so it cuts the supply.


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## GhosTTy (Oct 10, 2007)

wja96 said:


> DAG/S-tronic is not an automatic gearbox. If, like most American owners, you drive it like a torque-convertor automatic it will fail because you will burn out the clutches. If it's not serviced properly ie. expensively, it will fail. Beyond the warranty period you have no option if it fails but to get another gearbox. No repairs, no bodges, it has to be another gearbox. Then there are the issues on the selector units (what Audi call mechatronic units) - these are very prone to failure and again, they are mightily expensive to fix if they go wrong.
> 
> I also don't like how S-tronic drives. The pause between putting your foot down at a roundabout or junction and the car pulling away, the stupidly early upshifts, the lack of ability in many cars to reverse backwards up slopes.
> 
> ...


Looks like the common factor with 2 dodgy DSG cars is YOU. Perhaps you don't drive them properly. :roll: 
I've had ZERO PROBLEMS with my s-tronic since new (3 years old tomorrow). It's a fabulous piece of kit and I would have another one without a second thought.


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## GhosTTy (Oct 10, 2007)

wja96 said:


> Toshiba said:
> 
> 
> > 2 years, no issues ignore the haters.
> ...


It does creep forward. You just have to give it a moment to get to the bite before removing the handbrake - just like you would in a manual car. You have to accept that DSG is not a fluid torque convertor auto. It is different and needs to be used accordingly.


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

deleted


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## Inny (Jan 3, 2010)

The DSG transmission is some amazing technology I definitely didn't want to miss out on! I never owned a single clutch automated manual gearbox although I did drive a couple and they are a VERY compromised solution (watch for the R8 with R-tronic values to plummet when the dual clutch is finally available). Overall I'm quite satisfied with the S-tronic in my TTS although I'm not looking forward to financing the inevitable out of warranty automated clutch replacement.
What I am curious about is the future of this transmission. Regular automatics can offer everything the DSG does including paddle shifting, smoother starts and instant multigear kickdowns. The only real downside is their extra weight and slight power loss. Some would argue the ultimate transmission is the CVT which can be programmed to perform any way you want it to with the ultimate smoothness and variety of ratios. I'm actually surprised my DSG works as well as it does, I'm just not sure it's the future!


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## Taipei-TT (Apr 6, 2009)

WJA...

Americans aside...I think putting it into N makes sense.

However...after all the problems with my car, it was repaired by Audi's master technician for all of Asia. I asked him about it. He said it was ABSOLUTELY FINE to leave the car in D at stops. I also feel he was giving more than the corporate line and sincerely felt that D is no problem for the DSG.

I think it basically comes down to a lot of luck. The mechanism is highly complex and a million and 1 things can go wrong with it.

That said, in answer to the thread's question, YES, THE DSG IS TOTALLY WORTH IT! The vast majority of owners experience no problems despite what you read on the web which self selects for those with DSG problems looking for solutions. Also, people tend to bring up their negative experiences over and over again, and that further distorts the picture.

Like I said...I have had about as many problems as anyone could have had...Audi have stood by it, fixed it, and the solution is perfect. Absolutely, the DSG is worth the risk!!


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## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

Toshiba said:


> Anyone who doesnt know a dashboard from a dashpod has no credability and shouldn't be listen to.


If that's aimed at me, then I can at least spell credibility. And if I don't always refer to car components using the same terminology used in VAG's own documentation, then if it harms my credibility with you then I'll live with it.

The wonderful thing about forums such as this is that people like you and I can give our opinions freely. Everyone can judge whether we are credible or not from looking at our posts over a period of time. If you want to try and be antagonistic towards me in posts then you may do that, but people very quickly tune out the flame-posters because actually they mainly want help and advice, not a ruck. The OP asked a question, I've given my opinion. You've given yours. How credible our opinions are I will let others decide.


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## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

GhosTTy said:


> Looks like the common factor with 2 dodgy DSG cars is YOU. Perhaps you don't drive them properly. :roll:
> I've had ZERO PROBLEMS with my s-tronic since new (3 years old tomorrow). It's a fabulous piece of kit and I would have another one without a second thought.


It's quite possible that I didn't know how to drive the first one, but I can assure you that as an early adopter of DSG and a high mileage user I have been told by umpteen people how to drive DSG. I had 4 gearboxes in 6 years and I even had a complimentary driving lesson from a VAG representative in Milton Keynes because myself and a few other autobox users were kicking up such a stink in our company at the time they were seriously considering not buying any more VWs for their fleet.

If there wasn't a real underlying issue we wouldn't be having this discussion. If there wasn't a longevity issue somewhere along the line why have VAG given the cars 10 year 100,000 mile warranties in the US? And actually, a 100,000 mile warranty wouldn't cover my usage in 3-4 years anyway.

Anyone who has a DSG or S-tronic equipped car almost has to say they're great, if for no other reason but to protect their investment and to defend their choice. I completely accept the point about dissatisfied people posting more than satisfied ones, but there are an awful lot of unhappy DSG/S-tronic owners.


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## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

GhosTTy said:


> It does creep forward. You just have to give it a moment to get to the bite before removing the handbrake - just like you would in a manual car. You have to accept that DSG is not a fluid torque convertor auto. It is different and needs to be used accordingly.


I don't disagree. The first time I posted I said I didn't like how it drives in specific situations in comparison to a torque convertor autobox.

There is a definite lag between engaging D or S and forward motion occurring. It's a 'feature' of the automated clutch engaging. A fluid torque convertor has forward motion immediately. A torque convertor auto also cannot roll backwards. On a moderate incline the S-tronic car does not creep forward, it rolls backwards. Try it. VAG have built that functionality in to protect the clutch on 1st/3rd/5th gears. Their solution is AUTO-HOLD which keeps the brakes on for 2-3 seconds and also stops you taking advantage of opportunities at roundabouts.

I do not deny that a very high proportion of DSG/S-tronic users have had no issues with their cars, and surely you must also accept that a significant proportion have had issues, and that these cars are best viewed and purchased second-hand with as much background information as possible.

The OP isn't asking about a new one, he's asking about the risk on a used one. It's a very different ownership proposition in my view. I'm really not a hater, I really wanted DSG to be the answer. I need my car to work 100%, every single day. So, having had bad experiences with DSG, I bought a manual.


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## iModTTS (Jan 27, 2009)

This is a weird thread. I have 26k miles and 3k of those miles are with a 400hp STG3 kit on it. ZERO PROBLEMS. Car pulls like a monster w/ quick gear changes, and still get 23 miles per gallon average, even after a HPFP and new injectors. Don't believe the negative hype. The DSG/S-Tronic is a fine bit of kit.


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## Arne (Dec 13, 2006)

I have had S-tronic for two years on my previous TT 2.0T (2007 mod) and S-tronic for another two years on my excisting TTS - without any kind of problems on either of them.

If I where to change to a TT-RS in the future, it would definately be with S-tronic..... :wink:


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## TonyZed (Jun 14, 2005)

DSG is it worth the risk?

It's a yes from me!!

I've had a TTS Roadster with S-Tronic for two years and love it. I've just bought a second car, as sometimes we need rear seats and, very occasionally, two cars, so I bought a Golf Gti with DSG.

Forums will always produce more people with problems than without. I learnt that with my last car which was an E46 M3 which I had from new. I joined the M-Torque (previously BM3W) forum as I was having problems I wanted to research, and at first thought from there that everyone one did as there were so many issues being reported. I soon realised that although I did have more than my share of warranty claims, from big end bearings (a major recall), to leather seat covers (sound familiar), faulty xenons, wheel lacquer and door trim to name a few there were plenty of people having no problems at all. Some people had problems with SMG, some didn't. I didn't have SMG at all so I can't comment on it, but I know there was a recall on that too, software I believe. However, it was a superb car and I would have another like a shot.

I am old  so I remember when the Japs started putting indicators and electric starters, let alone more than two cylinders, on bikes and there were plenty of people then that had the same criticisms around complexity and reliability. The same can be said of a lot of the technology in cars that we take for granted. Many years ago cars only had three gears, and the transmission (lol) through to the six we all now take for grant was usually accompanied by comments from the local luddites which sound very familiar to some of the comments in this post. Normal automatic transmission wasn't welcomed by all either, nor was aircon, satnav, fancy suspension and a host of other things we all use happily.



> Anyone who has a DSG or S-tronic equipped car almost has to say they're great, if for no other reason but to protect their investment and to defend their choice.


 The same can be said the other way round for people who went the other route. In the same way that 40 years ago so-called "British bikers" tried to resist the advancement of technology but found to their surprise that it wasn't so bad after all, I'm sure DSG type gearboxes will be the norm within a few years. 

Google "DSG gearbox" for lots of interesting articles about DSG, how it works, why you should *not* leave it in D at traffic lights and how the technology is evolving.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct-Shift_Gearbox

There's one for starters. [smiley=book2.gif]

TonyZ

TonyZ


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## TonyZed (Jun 14, 2005)

> If I where to change to a TT-RS in the future, it would definately be with S-tronic..... :wink:


Ditto [smiley=dude.gif]

TonyZ


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## Arne (Dec 13, 2006)

One thing I am querious about is:



> why you should not leave it in D at traffic lights


.

Is this correct, and if it is - why?

I was told by an experienced technican with good reputation and experience with the DSG that it was not neccessary (and no "gain" what so ever) to put it in N at traffic lights or when periodictly standstills in traffic queue. Just keep it in D, and just be shure you have a firm pressure on the brake.

What is the correct thing to do here?


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## Dash (Oct 5, 2008)

TonyZed said:


> I'm sure DSG type gearboxes will be the norm within a few years.
> 
> Google "DSG gearbox" for lots of interesting articles about DSG, how it works, why you should *not* leave it in D at traffic lights and how the technology is evolving.


It's an excellent idea, and excellent technology. Obviously the more complex something gets, the more there is to fail. But the key point is that the technology is evolving. I personally know (i.e. not on the Interweb) a few people with DSG boxes, and none of them have ever had any problems.

But hey, in the MK1, if you've got a manual you run a risk of your clutch pedal collapsing, surely the DSG is more reliable in that sense? 



Arne said:


> One thing I am querious about is:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You don't sit on your brakes full stop when you're not using them. That's what the hand-brake is for. Keeping your foot on the brake keeps your hot pads against your hot discs, not allowing to heat to dissipate efficiently (especially with no air-flow). This can lead to damage of your brakes.

I'm not sure the exact mechanics of the DSG, but I believe when you are stationary in D the gear-box will maintain the biting point. Causing heat build up and wear on the mechanism. Again, you would never sit on the biting point if you had a clutch to control yourself. The is no difference with an automatic clutch.


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## Arne (Dec 13, 2006)

Dash said:


> Arne said:
> 
> 
> > One thing I am querious about is:
> ...


I agree that you should be carefull to sit on your brakes when the discs are hot. This is however usually not a problem when driving in a trafic queue, and remember that the hand-brake applies the rear pads against the rear discs as well....so using them does not "cure" this problem, if the discs are very hot.

You are wrong about the gear-box maintaining the biting point when you are in D AND the brake is applied. When brake is applied and you come to a stop, the DSG will disengage the clutch completely - just as you would if you drove a manual car and came to a halt with the gear-box in gear.

That is how the DSG works when you come to a stop in D with the brake on (not the handbrake, as I am not shure if the DSG detects that in the same way as the ordinary brake?), and that is the reason for why I don't see why there should be any reason to set it in N while waiting for a green light....or the queue to move?


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## TonyZed (Jun 14, 2005)

> N position of the floor-mounted shift lever means that the transmission is in "neutral". Similar to P above, both clutch packs and all gear-sets are fully disengaged, however the parking lock is disengaged. This position should be used when the motor vehicle is stationary for a period of time, such as at red traffic lights, or waiting in a queue of stationary traffic.[18] _The DSG should not be held in any of the active gear modes while stationary using the footbrake for other than brief periods - due to the clutches being held on the bite point, as this can overheat the clutches and transmission fluid._[





> You are wrong about the gear-box maintaining the biting point when you are in D AND the brake is applied. When brake is applied and you come to a stop, the DSG will disengage the clutch completely - just as you would if you drove a manual car and came to a halt with the gear-box in gear.


See above!!

Also, in a manual car the clutch is dis-engaged, however the clutch pressure plate is subject to strain that it could do without, so it is better to put it in neutral rather than hold it in gear. refer to any manual for confirmation. [smiley=book2.gif]

TonyZ


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## nvc (May 1, 2010)

DSG is much consistantly faster ,

here is the recent review by steve Sutcliffe on 2 golf R s

http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArtic ... lf/249584/


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## Arne (Dec 13, 2006)

TonyZed said:


> > N position of the floor-mounted shift lever means that the transmission is in "neutral". Similar to P above, both clutch packs and all gear-sets are fully disengaged, however the parking lock is disengaged. This position should be used when the motor vehicle is stationary for a period of time, such as at red traffic lights, or waiting in a queue of stationary traffic.[18] _The DSG should not be held in any of the active gear modes while stationary using the footbrake for other than brief periods - due to the clutches being held on the bite point, as this can overheat the clutches and transmission fluid._[
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I see your point regarding the strain to the clutch pressure plate, but these are just springs and I can't see them being "worn out" easilly...? (not before f.eks your shoch spring does.... :wink: )

But where did you find this?:



> .[18] _The DSG should not be held in any of the active gear modes while stationary using the footbrake for other than brief periods - due to the clutches being held on the bite point, as this can overheat the clutches and transmission fluid._


That is excactly what I have been told that is *does not* ( _"the clutches being held on the bite point when using the footbrake_").

And it is not to be found anywhere in my manual :?:


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## brittan (May 18, 2007)

Arne said:


> But where did you find this?:


Its in the Mk2 Knowledge Base in the thread about S-Tronic which has been updated with some info about the 7 speed DSG for the RS. The comment is in the Operation section under "N- Neutral".

Not sure of the ultimate source (Tosh should be able to confirm it) but it reads like Audi speak.


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## TonyZed (Jun 14, 2005)

http://www.r32oc.com/general-chat/11099-how-use-dsg-gearbox.html

Here is an interesting, if long, post from another forum. Have a read if you have some spare time. [smiley=book2.gif]

Everywhere there are DSG/S-Tronic gearboxes there are these discussions, and to me at least the advice is clear - don't leave your car in D for too long! [smiley=argue.gif]

I think a lot of the problems that we have heard about have been caused by misuse, partly because of the lack of clear instructions from the VW Audi group of companies and lack of knowledge on the part of their sales staff when they hand over to customers. The thread above gives some idea of the kind of abuse that cars have suffered sometimes through lack of knowledge and sometimes through total lack of mechanical sympathy. [smiley=huh2.gif]

Unfortunately, when buying a secondhand vehicle, be it a car, bike, truck or Phantom jet, we don't know exactly how it has been used or maintained. It is always a risk, as with the rest of the car, but I still say it is a risk worth taking - provided you carry out all the normal checks. If the car looks like it has been looked after and maintained properly then you will be fine. 8)

TonyZ


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## DaFolks (Jan 4, 2010)

[smiley=argue.gif]

Is it? I'd have to say a big 'yes'.

Not because I have S-tronic on my current TTS, and had it on my last 2.0FWD TT as well (with no problms over 30,000 miles).

Because S-tronic(or DSG) is an amazing gearbox, both for acceleration and incredibly smooth gear changes. I am a Police advanced driver; I like to think my manual gear changes are made smoothly and with the minimum loss of power, but I do not even try and kid myself that the S-tronic doesn't beat me hands-down every day of the week :lol:

I will confess however that while I love the paddles most of the time I do occasionally miss doing all the work myself with the old left foot :roll:


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## Dash (Oct 5, 2008)

Arne said:


> You are wrong about the gear-box maintaining the biting point when you are in D AND the brake is applied. When brake is applied and you come to a stop, the DSG will disengage the clutch completely - just as you would if you drove a manual car and came to a halt with the gear-box in gear.


This was what I was unsure about. It certainly seems like a good idea to disengage the clutch when the brake is fully depressed for this very reason, but the fountain of all lies (Wikipedia) suggests otherwise (see other quotes on this thread for it's view).

If it does disengage the clutch, at what point does it re-engage, is the brake pedal essentially operating as a brake _and_ a clutch? Which point of the brake lift-off does the bite point appear?


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## TortToise (Aug 22, 2009)

More DSG love, Japanese-style:


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## vagman (Sep 6, 2002)

So.........to sum it all up a big yes from the known universe, but a small no from TTminigirl. :roll:


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## Fissues (Aug 11, 2008)

DSG is faster!....................nuf said.


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## Stefan Sobell (Sep 12, 2009)

wja96 said:


> DAG/S-tronic is not an automatic gearbox. If, like most American owners, you drive it like a torque-convertor automatic it will fail because you will burn out the clutches. If it's not serviced properly ie. expensively, it will fail.
> 
> How do you burn out the clutches? If you slip into neutral when waiting, I can't see why this should happen, either in D or Manual.


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## wallstreet (Oct 19, 2009)

This has been riveting but dejavu like as I thought I commented on a similar creeping topic a few days hmmm


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## Taipei-TT (Apr 6, 2009)

Guys...seriously....are we **really** quoting wikipedia as an authoritative source??

In D the clutch is COMPLETELY disengaged. Totally. Not BIte point. Nada. If you still doubt it...why do you think the haters grumble about how 'slow' the DSG is to engage a gear when starting from a standstill? Ah yes...that would be because the clutches must engage once your foot is off the brake. For MT drivers, they seem only to count the time it takes for the gear to engage once they are coming off the clutch pedal...ignoring the time it takes to come off the brake, press the clutch, grab the gear, and release the clutch. The 'delay' on the DSG coming off the standstill is caused **because** the clutches are not engaged when you are on the brake and it takes time to engage them. Thus, stopping in N or D is irrelevant to the gear box; the clutches are not engaged. Shifting into N while rolling to a stop would seem to be much more problematic to the gear box due to the sudden lack of resistance on the gear box.

As for the hand brake....if the car is in D and you are on the hand brake only... the clutches will engage and force the car to move. NOT a good thing for any manual box. But if you try it...you will feel it...the engine will increase revs and the car will move. It WILL NOT do the same in D because the clutches are fully disengaged.

And whilst it may be an "internet truth" that it is best to put it in N at a stop....I have personally spoken with the senior maintenance tech from Audi. He is responsible for the training/certification of all of Audi's Asian workshops. He said this is BOGUS. No truth to it at all...don't do it. Lucky for me, I heard this straight from him. For those of you on the board, this advice is reduced to merely an "opinion." You can take his advice transmitted by me, or you can believe Wikipedia! I would also point out that the "reference" on Wikipedia that documents this "fact" is a) from a dubious, non-official source, b) is referring to Mitsubishi cars and c) is 404 and cannot be verified. In addition, the Wikipedia article contradicts itself within two lines. It says in D the clutch on the 1st clutch pack is engaged to the 'bite' point but goes on to say that the 1st clutch patch only engages to the bite point and then beyond once the brakes are disengaged. So the 'truth' that the clutches are engaged in D is immediately contradicted by the source that produced the 'truth.' !! Any further doubt...try it in a DSG car without hill assist....the car will roll back without any resistance if you let of the brake on an incline until the car figures it out and engages the clutches to resist the roll back and engage the gear. If the clutch was already engaged at the bite point, this process would be MUCH faster!

Finally....allow me to add one final point. Would the engineers and accountants at VW/Audi REALLY allow a transmission to go out the door where if consumers leave it in D at a stop light it will ruin the clutches and the gear boxes *WITHOUT* expressly warning consumers that doing do will damage the transmission and invalidate the warranty? For anyone doubting me on the technical aspects of the DSG operation, you ought to know Audi/VW by now...they will, and do, find any excuse to void warranty coverage. They would certainly highlight this is they felt that leaving a car in D will damage the box and increase warranty claims.

E.G. 
Audi Tech: "Sir, do you leave your car in D at stops?"
consumer who doesn't care if its DSG or torque converter "Of course, it's an automatic and I've never been told doing so is incorrect."
Audi Tech "Thank you sir, you will now have to pay x trillion dollars to fix the DSG yourself since you used it beyond standard operating protocols and Audi AG cannot be held responsible for you irresponsible use of our technology."

I think if the Fox network had a car show...they could really use this topic to get their "talking heads without facts" talking up a storm!


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## kdes24uk (May 10, 2007)

I'm sure it says in the handbook that the car can (should?) be held on the footbrake at traffic lights (or something like that) unfortunatly I don't have the book in front of me at the moment but will post the page number when I return from holidays is no one bests me to it!

kev


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## MXS (May 10, 2010)

Taipei-TT said:


> Guys...seriously....are we **really** quoting wikipedia as an authoritative source??
> 
> In D the clutch is COMPLETELY disengaged. Totally. Not BIte point. Nada. If you still doubt it...why do you think the haters grumble about how 'slow' the DSG is to engage a gear when starting from a standstill? Ah yes...that would be because the clutches must engage once your foot is off the brake. For MT drivers, they seem only to count the time it takes for the gear to engage once they are coming off the clutch pedal...ignoring the time it takes to come off the brake, press the clutch, grab the gear, and release the clutch. The 'delay' on the DSG coming off the standstill is caused **because** the clutches are not engaged when you are on the brake and it takes time to engage them. Thus, stopping in N or D is irrelevant to the gear box; the clutches are not engaged. Shifting into N while rolling to a stop would seem to be much more problematic to the gear box due to the sudden lack of resistance on the gear box.
> 
> ...


*At last!.... a detailed and sensibly written post.*


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## wallstreet (Oct 19, 2009)

MXS said:


> At last!.... a detailed and sensibly written post.


Ditto x2

This is the second topic of dsg nature in less than 48hrs...


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## iModTTS (Jan 27, 2009)

We had a GTG here in the SF Bay Area tonight, and I brought this post up. I'd never heard this crazy D and neutral nonsense before. There were guys with over 20k on their DSG cars and guess what, no issues at all. I think it may be manual tranny dudes that are perpetuating this belief. I should know, because up until this car I drove manual trannys exclusively. Bottom line, the DSG is a very strong, reliable transmission that will beat manual shift changes every single time as long as the driver knows what the hell they are doing. So here it is; "This thread is officially ludicrous!" Thank you very much to our man, Taipei-TT for calling bullsh!t on this one........


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## Arne (Dec 13, 2006)

Taipei-TT: [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

Just what I have tried to say, but just SO much better written [smiley=cheers.gif]


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

brittan said:


> Arne said:
> 
> 
> > But where did you find this?:
> ...


Source is Audi.


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## melltt (Oct 5, 2006)

Taipei-TT said:


> Guys...seriously....are we **really** quoting wikipedia as an authoritative source??
> 
> In D the clutch is COMPLETELY disengaged. Totally. Not BIte point. Nada. If you still doubt it...why do you think the haters grumble about how 'slow' the DSG is to engage a gear when starting from a standstill? etc. etc


Didn't want to repeat the whole post just taking up space but thanks very much for a very clear explanation.

However we also have a Q5 with DSG as well as the TT. The Q5 is fitted with Hill Hold Assist which means we sit in Drive with foot off the brake ready to pull away even faster ready on the accelerator. Do you know if the clutch is disengaged in this instance and only engages once the brakes come off auto lock thus saving clutch wear ?


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## powerplay (Feb 8, 2008)

Taipei-TT said:


> Guys...seriously....are we **really** quoting wikipedia as an authoritative source??
> 
> In D the clutch is COMPLETELY disengaged. Totally. Not BIte point. Nada. If you still doubt it...why do you think the haters grumble about how 'slow' the DSG is to engage a gear when starting from a standstill? Ah yes...that would be because the clutches must engage once your foot is off the brake. For MT drivers, they seem only to count the time it takes for the gear to engage once they are coming off the clutch pedal...ignoring the time it takes to come off the brake, press the clutch, grab the gear, and release the clutch. The 'delay' on the DSG coming off the standstill is caused **because** the clutches are not engaged when you are on the brake and it takes time to engage them. Thus, stopping in N or D is irrelevant to the gear box; the clutches are not engaged. Shifting into N while rolling to a stop would seem to be much more problematic to the gear box due to the sudden lack of resistance on the gear box.
> 
> ...


Taipei,

I agree with some of what you've written.... however, and with the greatest respect for you and the Audi tech you have spoken with, your opening paragraph I'm afraid is - imho - completely wrong.

I will clarify, given others seem to agree with your comments - it is either wrong, or my TT is different to to_ everyone else's_ and my owner's manual has been _specifically _edited for my unique TT.

I find it most bizarre how there can be so much confusion and differing opinions about a product we all share and which (presumably) works the _same _for everyone.

In my TT, when I put it in D (or S or M), I can _feel _the transmission engage; I can _feel _the clutch start to bite with my foot on the brake. I can _hear _the engine tone drop slightly as it encounters resistance from the biting clutch. As I start to reduce pressure on the brake very gradually, the braking force slowly becomes unable to resist the biting clutch and the car starts to creep (not as much or as forcefully as a conventional auto as the clutch is only just biting). Taking my foot fully off the brake and the clutch bites fully.

To clarify, with my foot firmly on the brake and in N, engine tone normal. Into D, engine note drops (ie from increased resistance due to biting clutch), back to N, engine note back to idle.

I am *totally *confused how you and everyone else don't seem to experience this.

Maybe it is just my unique TT or my own super-human highly tuned senses - no, Audi seem to think so too, *from the manual page 86* "_In all selector positions except P and N the vehicle must always be held with the foot on the brake when the engine is running. This is because the automatic gearbox still transmits power even at idling speed, and the vehicle tends to 'creep'. ..._"

From the manual on page 88 "_... you will need to hold the car with the footbrake. Otherwise, the car will "creep" forwards as the power transmission is not fully interrupted even when the engine is idling._"

Also from the manual on page 88 in with reference to driving using the DSG, "_... Never allow the brake to drag and do not use the brake pedal too often or for long periods..._"

So Taipei, as you can see your last comment is also, I'm sorry to say, a bit [Tai] pie in the sky as the manual very clearly states not to hold the car stationary for long periods - although it does also state on page 87 that you can hold the car stationary for brief periods, and cites stopping at traffic lights as an example.

Hopefully having RTFM'd that clears things up and everyone will agree (since we all have the same piece of engineering and the same manual) . OK? Good! :wink:


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## TonyZed (Jun 14, 2005)

> I am totally confused how you and everyone else don't seem to experience this. That is Exactly what I experience Stu!
> 
> Maybe it is just my unique TT or my own super-human highly tuned senses - no, Audi seem to think so too, from the manual page 86 "In all selector positions except P and N the vehicle must always be held with the foot on the brake when the engine is running. This is because the automatic gearbox still transmits power even at idling speed, and the vehicle tends to 'creep'. ..."
> 
> ...


Well said [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

TonyZ


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## Dash (Oct 5, 2008)

Brilliant, two excellent posts which have both got definitive, yet opposing views. Anybody got an old DSG they want to dismantle and figure it out?


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## sTTranger (Oct 21, 2008)

Dash said:


> Brilliant, two excellent posts which have both got definitive, yet opposing views. Anybody got an old DSG they want to dismantle and figure it out?


 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## ross2280 (May 11, 2005)

My DSG is still engaged while pressing the foot brake.. and the car starts creeping forward while slowly releasing the brake, without even having to step on the gas pedal.. you can keep the car creeping forward permanently while also having your brake lights on by using the slightest pressure on the brake.. without using the gas pedal.. you can try it.. 
Also while you're in D or S or M, and stopped at the lights for example, roll down your windows and try switching it to N.. You will hear the clutches disengage.. Put it back in D, whilst still pressing on the brake.. You will hear the clutches engage...
I wonder if some people that write their opinion actually have a dsg car, and if they have any idea about the noises or functions of their own car...
:?


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## Taipei-TT (Apr 6, 2009)

powerplay said:


> Taipei-TT said:
> 
> 
> > Guys...seriously....are we **really** quoting wikipedia as an authoritative source??
> ...


Powerplay . . .

Thanks for the awesome post. However, I do not think I am completely wrong. The point of this entire thread is narrowed down to whether or not it acceptable to leave the car in D at a traffic light. Your quotes from the manual brilliantly support my contention that it is ABSOLUTELY fine to leave the car in D.

Play around with your DSG and you can feel that my paragraph is not absolutely wrong. Try it the other way...from D to N . . .you cannot feel anything on my car. This was further confirmed to me in person. So I am passing on information given to me from a reputable source.

I've also noticed the car will keep more pressure on the clutch during slow parking maneuvers so that you can maintain speed. However, as some have complained about, often this is not enough and whereas with an automatic you could just leave the car idling for the parking maneuver, DSG is going to require you to add throttle in some instances.

Regardless, however, of the specific intricacies of the DSG that seem to be in dispute, it is clear from the manual, the Audi Senior Tech, and common sense, that leaving your DSG in D at a stop light constitutes acceptable use of the DSG. Thus, if DSGs are being damaged from this use, it is a product flaw, not an operator error.

So at the end of the day, though are reasons may vary, can we finally please, pretty please, put a definitive end to the "Should I leave my DSG in N at stoplight?" If you are going to idle your car and pollute the earth, then please, put it in P!


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## Inny (Jan 3, 2010)

I think this simply comes down to common sense. A short stop (traffic light) leave it in D, longer stops its probably better to slip it in N. I do note when shifting between N and D in my car there are significant mechanical goings-on. Also, stopped in D with the brakes on seems to result in no drag on the engine unless I've nearly lifted. I would guess there's more overall wear on the mechanism doing the shift to N and back to D.


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## MXS (May 10, 2010)

I would like to thank you all for this very informative post.

I will have no hesitation in leaving my car in 'D' whilst idling at traffic lights etc...

Thanks for putting my mind at rest. 8)


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## Taipei-TT (Apr 6, 2009)

Just to add one more thing....

And...as for the "Tai -pie in the sky"......it's Tai- PEI...as in tai-pay.... not pie  And I'm a Canadian ex-pat and my manual is in Mandarin...which I speak...but God help me reading it! Anyone who quotes the manual to me is always doing me a favor of shedding light on the mysterious document that sits on my bookshelf!

awesome thread....disagreements but pleasantness! Audi TT owners rock!


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## Arne (Dec 13, 2006)

Powerplay:

I think that what you hear/feel when you switch from N to D is the gear in the gearbox that is being engaged (which results in more moving parts in the gearbox) - at the same time as the clutch is being engaged as well (same as stepping on the clutch in a manuall car just before you put it in gear).

Try to hold the car still with the brake on a fine upward slope in D. When you release the brake (without giving any throttle)the car will move a little backwards first before the clutch bites and then starts moving slowly forwards. This is a good "evidens" that the clutch is not at a biting point when in D with the brake on.

However the idea of putting it in N when you know you are going to stay still for a little time, is not a bad thing. It's just what you would do in a manual car, so that you don't need to keep the clutch inn for a longer time - and there will be less moving parts in the gearbox, and less strain to the clutch springs.

But I am still 100% (or at least 99% :wink: ) certain that you don't wear the clutch plates when standing still in D with the brake on.

ps: regarding what the manual says about this - I interpret that as a "warning" = when in D, the car will start to move as soon as you release the brake. If you were in the risc of waring your clutch down when doing this, it would have been written very differently - in my opinion :wink:


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## powerplay (Feb 8, 2008)

Taipei-TT said:


> Just to add one more thing....
> 
> And...as for the "Tai -pie in the sky"......it's Tai- PEI...as in tai-pay.... not pie  And I'm a Canadian ex-pat and my manual is in Mandarin...which I speak...but God help me reading it! Anyone who quotes the manual to me is always doing me a favor of shedding light on the mysterious document that sits on my bookshelf!
> 
> awesome thread....disagreements but pleasantness! Audi TT owners rock!





Taipei-TT said:


> Try it the other way...from D to N . . .you cannot feel anything on my car.
> Just to briefly clarify I agree with you agreeing that the clutch is engaged in D when foot off the brake, I disagree however and maintain there is also a degree of engageness (is that a word?!) when the footbrake is on. On mine, move from D to N and I hear and feel the clutch completely disengage.


Hey Taipei.... just a little play on words, that's all, sorry couldn't resist  We have a saying here, to say that something is "pie in the sky" means it's wishful thinking, unreachable goal, unlikely to happen etc.

Only too happy to quote you sections of the manual. To be honest, the way it is written and laid out is not great, Audi have a habbit of taking all the really important bits (like warnings and useful info) and putting them in their own little call-out box away from the main text; trouble is, when you just skim through a manual (I know we shouldn't but people generally do!) it's those additional bits you gloss over.

And I do agree that it is okay to hold the car stationary with the footbrake while in D, the manual says as I quoted that this can be done "for brief periods" - and as a force of habbit I drop into N if I can see I'm not going to be moving again within 10-20 secs. And as you by the sounds of it hadn't read, the manual does explicitly state not to hold it like this for too long, so if it does overheat/wear-out etc due to this, they do have it covered.

And TP/Arne, the only thing I don't agree with is the statement that the transmission is *fully *disengaged when the footbrake is on - my own experience with the car plus the documentation from the owner's manual make this 100% clear to me. When I press the foot brake - _just enough to barely release the interlock on the gear lever_ - not only do I hear 1st-gear engage (as you rightly point out, Arne) but the engine idle note drops and I _feel_ the car urge forward: not what would happen if it was only the gearbox mechanics at work and not the clutch taking up some of the drive.

When I engage D/R on a slight slope I do notice that if you take your foot off the brake _instantly _the car will start to roll (depending on the incline), if you leave your foot on the brake for a few seconds and then remove it, unless it is a steep slope the car will hold. This is because (as I see it) when the clutch starts to bite it is only a relatively light pressure (enough to make the car creep when on the level but the clutch can still slip).

The clever electro-servo stuff in the gearbox can sense how much "bite" to apply and will gradually apply more pressure. You can experience this yourself if you engage D/R on a gradual slope and release the brake immediately, you should experience, as I do, the car start to roll (overcoming the initially applied clutch pressure) but then slow down and hold stationary as the gearbox detects the clutch slipping and applies more pressure.

I think people seem to overlook the fact that in order for the car to drive and "feel" smooth and like a torque-converter (fluid coupling) with no perceivable jolt/judder etc the amount of / degree of control, pressure, slippage etc needs to be far more "detectable and controllable" compared to what we as a driver with a manual clutch pedal could achieve.

Just as the foot brake can go from being imperceptably "on" with a very light touch to fully on, the DSG clutch can go from being very slightly biting to fully engaged with controllable degree of variance - the two have to go hand in hand for a seamlessly smooth experience; therefore when in D and holding the car stationary, there will always be an amount of clutch biting, therefore friction being applied, oil heating up etc, in a controlled and designed manner - controlled enough that the gearbox can easily cope with it for seconds to a minute or two by design, but not for extended periods, just as the manual states. Phew. :lol:


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## Arne (Dec 13, 2006)

I see what you mean Powerplay, and I agree with you in close to everything :wink:

The only thing I do not agree with you on is when the car is at standstill and with the brake firmly applied (and not just a "touch" of brake...). I am shure that the clutch then will be fully disangaged - just as it would be when you push the clutch pedal all the way inn.

The reason for why I am so sure of this is that in this clever gearbox, this feature would be SO easy to implement, so I can not see any reason for why it should not be like this after so many ears of experience with this unit?

And the fact that the "DSG expert" at Audi/VAG Norway comfirmed this "above any doubt" to me when I asked him about this when I bought my first TT S-tronic, makes me feel rather certain of this as well - specially since this is a person that would have no reason to say anything wrong or missleading to me, and has been very helpfull (and correct) in anything else that he has helped me with (we have a common friend as well). If he had been uncertain of the correct answere on this, he would just have said that "I don't really know"....(as he has done on some other difficult questions I have had regarding f.eks the 4. gen Haldex earlier...).

Taipei-TT has gotten the same answere from the "Audi specialist", and I am pretty shure that if you wrote to Audi/VAG techical dept, then you would get the same answere from them as well.

However as I also have said before, putting the DSG in N when you know you are going to stay still for longer than 10-20 secs, is not a bad thing. But if you keep it in D, I am pretty shure that this is not anything that will premature wear out your wet clutch plates in the DSG :wink:


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## powerplay (Feb 8, 2008)

Hi Arne - Yep I kinda agree with your thinking, and that logically with the brake firmly on you would think there wouldn't be, and shouldn't be, any clutch biting. Certainly in a true manual you wouldn't be stationary and keep the clutch on the bite point for no reason (unless you liked the smell :lol: ).

However (again this is all my own opinion I don't claim to know definitively) presumably then you agree (implied by you stating when the brake is _firmly_ applied) that with light brake pressure (bordering on stopped/creeping) the clutch would still be biting. Presumably then to work as you suggest, there should be a direct correlation between braking pressure and clutch pressure, such that the firmer you apply the footbrake, the less the clutch bites until it is fully disengaged.

I don't see the above behaviour at all in my vehicle; if it were to do that, I am sure I would be able to modulate the force being applied by my foot and hear/feel the engine note change as the clutch started to bite as I lessened the force on the brake pedal. You would also have to ask the question "just how much braking force is required to fully disengage the clutch?" this would vary so much between vehicles with different conditions, hydraulics, degree of brake pad wearing etc I think to work this way would be virtually impossible. No - easier to leave it always just biting and design the clutch to cope. This is how it works and that is reinforced by the fact that with foot *firmly *on the brake in D, when I shift to N the engine note gets higher to coincide with the clutch fully disengaging.

However, that is just how I see it and I won't question it any more - as you say, Audi "tech" people have contradicted it. I will only say in passing that I work in the (highly techincal) software industry and the number of times a professional developer has claimed something worked a certain way only to then be proved wrong is, uh, not uncommon :wink:


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## TortToise (Aug 22, 2009)

Arne said:


> Powerplay:
> 
> I think that what you hear/feel when you switch from N to D is the gear in the gearbox that is being engaged (which results in more moving parts in the gearbox) - at the same time as the clutch is being engaged as well (same as stepping on the clutch in a manuall car just before you put it in gear).
> 
> ...


I'd compare leaving a DSG in D when stationary and holding with the brake with 'standing on the clutch with your left foot and staying in gear' instead of shifting to neutral and taking your foot off the clutch in a manual transmission car.

When you then take your foot off the main brake, it's like slowly lifting your clutch foot on a manual as the gear engages. Takes about half a second or so on mine before you are properly 'in gear' during which time it will creep forward a little if on the flat or roll back slightly if on a hill.

Thing is, there's definitely something mechanical going on when you shift from D to N (I can sometimes feel a very slight 'clunk' through the brake pedal) which I presume will lead to wear and tear as well. I tend to stand on the brake if I'm pretty sure the car is going to need to start moving again soon but if I know I'm in for a bit of a wait I'll shift to N.


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## GhosTTy (Oct 10, 2007)

Taipei-TT said:


> Just to add one more thing....
> 
> And...as for the "Tai -pie in the sky"......it's Tai- PEI...as in tai-pay.... not pie  And I'm a Canadian ex-pat and my manual is in Mandarin...which I speak...but God help me reading it! Anyone who quotes the manual to me is always doing me a favor of shedding light on the mysterious document that sits on my bookshelf!
> 
> awesome thread....disagreements but pleasantness! Audi TT owners rock!


But if you read the manual then you wouldn't make WRONG assertions. Powerplay is spot on with his undisputable 'facts'.
As an aside, people who sit for ages at lights and junctions with their footbrake on, annoy the hell out of me. It's bloody inconsiderate to the person behind who is blinded by your high-level brake light. Please use N and the handbrake - it's what they were made for. You'll be safer and more considerate to your car's mechanicals and to the other people that you share the road with.
Rant over.


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## Taipei-TT (Apr 6, 2009)

GhosTTy....

You can read your manual. I'll take my advice from the senior Audi tech responsible for all of maintenance in Asia and we can all leave it at that!

Personally...it sounds like a case of damned if you do, and damned if you don't. As noted, there is some kind of mechanical movement from N to D. Who's to say that is less wear and tear on the box than leaving it in D?

Second, "long period of time." Manual seems quite vague here! What is a long period of time to you? Same as me? Audi should be/would be more specific if leaving the car in D at traffic lights was a bad thing. And given the manual specifically states that is ok, I think we are all fine on that.

So given the passion at which you deny "my assertion" (note, as stated, I'm simply passing on the assertion of someone who knows more about the DSG than all of us combined!), I'm wondering where in the manual/or an Audi tech who emphatically states that putting the car in N at stoplights is better than leaving it in D. It is sincerely not a rhetorical question...like everyone I want to protect the mechanicals of my car and operate it correctly...so I'm more than amenable to sliding it into N at a traffic light if we can dig up some actual evidence that recommends this specific course of action!

And to clear up any other misconception about my understanding of English idiom...I am a native English speaking Caucasian who just happens to have lived in Asia for 10 years....I get them, don't worry!  

So again, sincerely, I'm not being argumentative!! Just want to make an informed decision based on better evidence!


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## ross2280 (May 11, 2005)

Taipei-TT said:


> GhosTTy....
> 
> You can read your manual. I'll take my advice from the senior Audi tech responsible for all of maintenance in Asia and we can all leave it at that!
> 
> Second, "long period of time." Manual seems quite vague here! What is a long period of time to you? Same as me? Audi should be/would be more specific if leaving the car in D at traffic lights was a bad thing. And given the manual specifically states that is ok, I think we are all fine on that.


Pressumably, if anything happens to your box.. and Audi needs to replace it.. They will go by the manual, and not what some guy in Audi tech (however well informed he may be) suggested... I am sure Audi has tried to write the manual in such a way that their butt is covered in all times, so although I am keen to believe some expert audi tech guide, i think that the manual tends to have the "safest" choice of actions for the well being of the car in general...


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## igotone (Mar 10, 2010)

LOL ... interesting thread. 

I've driven many miles in autos in the past, and during enforced stoppages I'd come to rest using the foot brake then apply the handbrake and rest my right foot leaving the car in 'D' - a far more relaxing way to drive, and I'm sure the way we were all taught. :wink:

People seem to have forgotten they have a handbrake these days. I completely agree with GhosTTy about people who sit for ages with their foot on the footbrake, showing complete disregard for the person sitting behind them - particularly at night.

The autos I've driven were nowhere near as adavanced as Audi's DSG system and I never experienced any issues as a result of leaving the car in 'D' . It seems to me if you're constantly shifing from 'D' to 'N' and back you might as well be driving a manual.


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## powerplay (Feb 8, 2008)

igotone said:


> LOL ... interesting thread.
> 
> I've driven many miles in autos in the past, and during enforced stoppages I'd come to rest using the foot brake then apply the handbrake and rest my right foot leaving the car in 'D' - a far more relaxing way to drive, and I'm sure the way we were all taught. :wink:
> 
> ...


Just as an aside - All autos that aren't an automated-manual or derivative of DSG/Stronic are absolutely fine to leave in D all day. ALL conventional Automatic Transmissions use a Torque Converter which is a fluid coupling - there is zero physical connection between engine input and torque converter output to the gearbox (except for when the revs become matched, then in some designs the shafts are locked). This is why it is completely fine in a conventional auto. DSG is a different kettle of fish entirely with automatic electro-hydraulic control of two physical friction clutches, hence the reason for the discussion in this thread


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## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

igotone said:


> I've driven many miles in autos in the past, and during enforced stoppages I'd come to rest using the foot brake then apply the handbrake and rest my right foot leaving the car in 'D' - a far more relaxing way to drive, and I'm sure the way we were all taught.


I think something we all agree on is that sitting with the DSG box in D with the footbrake off and the handbrake on will damage a DSG gearbox as the clutch is engaged like that.


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## Taipei-TT (Apr 6, 2009)

WJA...not only will it damage the car...the car will go to heroic efforts to move if you are in D with only the handbrake! I've seen it done...UGLY!


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## wallstreet (Oct 19, 2009)

wja96 said:


> I think something we all agree on is that sitting with the DSG box in D with the footbrake off and the handbrake on will damage a DSG gearbox as the clutch is engaged like that.


Just not common sense!


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