# Ken Bigley RIP



## Loz180 (Sep 20, 2004)

Shame about the poor bloke. What are people views on the forum?

Age 62 and out in Iraq chasing big money contracts?

Beheaded publically while held down by three blokes?

Government "unable" to intervene?

No comment from blair who is at Chequers after a trip to africa?

What a mess.


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## andy761 (Jul 27, 2003)

Terrible news, but i believe his fate was sealed from day 1........ these people cannot be reasoned with.


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## Loz180 (Sep 20, 2004)

andy761 said:


> Terrible news, but i believe his fate was sealed from day 1........ these people cannot be reasoned with.


So what do you make of the Telegraph reporter who was kidnapped three weeks ago and released within 2 days?
:?


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## andy761 (Jul 27, 2003)

First Brit i've heard of being released.... Lots more dead than released im afraid. my original comment still stands


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## Loz180 (Sep 20, 2004)

I think its a tragedy that ANYONE should die needlessly and at someone elses hand.

At the back of my mind I think to go and work out there is to put yourself in harms way and to do that for money (he was not a humanitarian aid worker I'm afraid) is at best, short sighted. The fact that the whole country is up in arms about it and yet thousands of Iraqi's were tortured and killed without us having news coverage daily of indiviuals or groups kind of says one rule for us and another for them. Thats a shame. All life is sacred. I wish the violence could end and make way for a peaceable resolution but, I can't see how this could happen from where I sit.

It would be great if powers that be could make a committment to a compromise but, we have not even got that far yet!

Dare we enter the debate about responsibility?

:?


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## saint (Dec 6, 2002)

Money - Risk - Money - Risk - He chose money over risk, he was certainly no humane volunteer.

Unfortunate about the consequences and am sorry for the family etc but..... he knew what he was letting himself in for.


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## Loz180 (Sep 20, 2004)

I guess Saint has more forceably represented part of my own feelings on this issue... :?


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## StuarTT (May 7, 2002)

Although what happened is a tragedy and my thoughts are with his family and friends who did their best to get him released, but Andy761 is correct. There ws no way he was going to be released.

As for the country being up in arms about it. It's a pity that the country isn't up in arms everytime an Iraqi (or anyone of any other nationatility) is killed in a car bomb attack. Mass hysteria if you ask me is never very rational.

It's time to face up to the fact that the US and British Governments are in the process of creating their own little Vietnam. It will get a lot worse before it starts to get better.


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## jimfew (Mar 5, 2004)

saint said:


> ..... he knew what he was letting himself in for.


It is unlikely that he thought he was getting into a public beheading as part of international terrorism. I cannot imagine the reasonableness discussion that tries to balance Mr Bigley's desire to earn an honest buck with the obviously corageous and righteous behaviour of his captives.

I, for one, apportion no blame to Mr Bigley. It is the inhuman, crass, ungodly, animals that decided to behead someone on TV to make a point.

I hope they rot in hell (and they will).

Jim.


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## Gworks (Jan 20, 2003)

He was most likely dead a day after the video was shot! I am sorry to hear about him as I only got word of it this morning!  
My condolences to his Family!


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## bilbos (Jan 16, 2004)

saint said:


> Money - Risk - Money - Risk - He chose money over risk, he was certainly no humane volunteer.
> 
> Unfortunate about the consequences and am sorry for the family etc but..... he knew what he was letting himself in for.


I have to agree with Saint. Everyone knew the situation out there, it is probably the most dangerous place in the world at present and to put yourself in the middle of that is crazy IMO.

Still, he could not possibly have imagined what would have happened to him and for that I am truly sorry.


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## pas_55 (May 9, 2002)

:wink: The reporter was taken by a different group Shia's I think.As for Mr Bigley as you say he knew the risks but,I guess the thought of earning Â£10,000+ a week was too much for him funny no ones mentioned this


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## Loz180 (Sep 20, 2004)

pas_55 said:


> :wink: The reporter was taken by a different group Shia's I think.As for Mr Bigley as you say he knew the risks but,I guess the thought of earning Â£10,000+ a week was too much for him funny no ones mentioned this


I was hoping that would get flushed out in the media but I'm glad people here are not blind to that important issue.

When we say, "he can't have forseen his fate" I beg to differ. What stops you from taking a contract out there for mega money? I think its the fear of exactly that happening. SO What made Mr Bigley different. I think only the fact that he thought he could get away with the money and his life.

I find it very sad that he was wrong.

I don't excuse the act of barbarism that ended his life one iota.

I feel for his family and if it were my dad I'm not sure I'd ever come to terms with it.

I just refuse to ignore the fact that he knowingly put himself in harms way for pure and simple greed.

The world stage does not need another Ken Bigley. Get out of Iraq if you don't need to be there. Stop giving the terrorists ammunition.

[Loz steps off soap box and zips up flame suit real tight] :?


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## digimeisTTer (Apr 27, 2004)

These people are crazed misguided fanatics with no real idea of what they want to achieve, holding innocent civilians as ransom for demands they know will not be met is madness. They are not trying to help Iraq it's just an excuse.

Publicity is all they are after and fortunately they are the minority the ringleader isn't even an Iraqi!

Murdering scum is what they are and it makes my blood boil that they carryout these crimes under the name of Islam. i hope they are hunted down like dogs.


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## Loz180 (Sep 20, 2004)

Yeah, one good thing that I feel is emerging in the british conciousness is that this is nothing to do with Islam.

_*THIS IS NOTHING TO DO WITH ISLAM!!!*_

Brits are no longer thinking this is a holy issue. its just some scum (which every race/religion/class has among its number) that are using very sour means to make a point.


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## Loz180 (Sep 20, 2004)

now the word on the street is, he escaped for about half an hour before being caught and THEN executed?? the spin doctoring has started... Now he is a brit hero who tried to take on the evil doers and escape. couldn't just be a tired greedy old man who was in the wrong place at the wrong time... no, thats not british enough!


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## ColwynC (Sep 8, 2003)

Loz180 said:


> now the word on the street is, he escaped for about half an hour before being caught and THEN executed?? the spin doctoring has started... Now he is a brit hero who tried to take on the evil doers and escape. couldn't just be a tired greedy old man who was in the wrong place at the wrong time... no, thats not british enough!


Not sure about the tired, but I am with what sounds like the majority view here. Ken put himself in harms way to try and get business. He was living outside of the Green Zone, which in itself is not particularly safe, in an area of the city where he was outside of anyones protection. The motive was business, money, a quick buck no doubt. My company is trying to do business in Iraq as are a lot of other comapnies but under NO circumstances would we consider trying that kind of stunt. My thoughts are with his family as this is no way for anyone to die. However, the people who do this are terrorists. If we give in to their demands they win, providing them an excuse to kidnap more. The place is freeking mess and in no small part due to the misunderstanding of the arab and muslim psyche by people who I thought should have known better. However, the world is a better place without Saddam loose and good things are happening in Iraq, it is just going to be a long hard painful process and no doubt more people will die. It is incumbent on individuals entering these areas to protect themselves if they choose to go. Try getting employee insurance on this kind of site visit!

I do agree with the sentiment posted earlier. This is not a religous issue. The terrorists are hiding behind the muslim religion. Tolerance is pretty much in all religions, people just see what they want to see.

Just remember that all carrots are orange but not all orange things are carrots!

For Ken's family, I am sorry he was in the wrong place at the wrong time, perhaps as a calculated risk. I feel for you.


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## Dotti (Mar 9, 2003)

Absolutely devastating this sort of news is. It's dreadful. I fear for my own children and when they have children in years to come living in a society like this.

What makes me shiver is the way the murdering pigs go about killing these people. Beheading must be one of the most slow and painful way to go in some respects. Not exactly like a shot in the head or chest!

R.I.P. Ken Bigley.


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## Loz180 (Sep 20, 2004)

what do they do? just rag away with a blade at his neck till the lot comes off? I had thought previously that they use a sword or something and its one clean blow. Then I heard the term "sawn" being used and "one of them drew a knife from his belt and..." so I got a much nastier image to wrestle with.

All death is sad. I'd pray for a quick and painless one though. :?


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## Dotti (Mar 9, 2003)

Loz180 said:


> what do they do? just rag away with a blade at his neck till the lot comes off? I had thought previously that they use a sword or something and its one clean blow. Then I heard the term "sawn" being used and "one of them drew a knife from his belt and..." so I got a much nastier image to wrestle with.


That was a very similar impression to what I have had after reading how the news report had put it.


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

How many Iraqi people did "we" needlessly slaughter by going to war in the first place on what now amounts to NO F*CKING REASON WHATSOEVER...

I'm well up for defending our own realm. I'm also concerned by the poor human rights records of some foreign countries, and think a mixture of sanctions and direct action is often needed. I'm not PARTICULARLY bothered for my country to go to war as a PR exercise. George W couldn't find Al-Quaeda, so took the next best option - a war with a dictator we tried to beat 10 years ago and failed...and, like puppets, Tony dragged us in too... with enough "spin" and propaganda to make us think he was saving the world.

He wasn't. It turned into a f*cking mess. I'm not surprised there are elements within that country who wish to fight back with whatever means they can.

Sorry folks. For every Ken Bigley, there are hundreds of so called "war" casualties that died in vain. I won't cry for him. Wrong place at the wrong time, except being paid through the nose for the risk... some would say others never had the choices HE had...


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## digimeisTTer (Apr 27, 2004)

Loz180 said:


> Now he is a brit hero who tried to take on the evil doers and escape. couldn't just be a tired greedy old man who was in the wrong place at the wrong time... no, thats not british enough!


WTF are you on about! I don't care if he was there to line his own pockets or not, he was clearly no threat to anyone and a soft target to complete cowards, no-one deserves to have their existence ended in this manner by complete nutters!!

obviously some religious/racial undretones from your statements!!!

P**s off!!! :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

bilbos said:


> saint said:
> 
> 
> > Money - Risk - Money - Risk - He chose money over risk, he was certainly no humane volunteer.
> ...


It is always about money. You are either mad or desperate to go to work down there. Better have less money that risk your life.

The same applies to people that take holidays to risky countries where there is terrorism. But people still go because it is cheap.

There are contracts for Iraq at Â£100 an hour...would I go? NO.


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## R6B TT (Feb 25, 2003)

vlastan said:


> There are contracts for Iraq at Â£100 an hour...would I go? NO.


Maybe a Poll - Should Vlastan go to Iraq ?? :lol:


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## stephengreen (May 6, 2002)

*kmpowell edit : Stephen, I had originally added some warning text on this link and let it remain, but we have had many complaints so I have had to remove it.*


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## Loz180 (Sep 20, 2004)

digimeisTTer said:


> Loz180 said:
> 
> 
> > Now he is a brit hero who tried to take on the evil doers and escape. couldn't just be a tired greedy old man who was in the wrong place at the wrong time... no, thats not british enough!
> ...


If you had read all my other posts I think you might have not wasted bandwith with these poorly chosen comments.

What possible religous/racial undertones could my comments in their full context have contain. I'll happily listen to your reasoned argument but to go making rash statements like that is at best provocative, at worst plain ignorant. The fight is not here, pal. but if that the best you can do, go for it. I'll be* your* soft target for the day if it makes you feel better. :?


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

In this video there is a pause after the knife touches the throat. Could this be a fake beheading just to scare us?

I can't believe that anybody would just kill someone like this in reality.


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## stephengreen (May 6, 2002)

vlastan said:


> In this video there is a pause after the knife touches the throat. Could this be a fake beheading just to scare us?
> 
> I can't believe that anybody would just kill someone like this in reality.


No vlas this site has shown most of the video's released by this group.This is the reality of a situation that seems easy to pass comment on before the images are viewed.These individual killings have had an effect on me, equal to, the mass killings of 9/11.


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## David_A (May 7, 2002)

Guys really don't think that that link is appropriate on this forum.

Don't care if you distribute it privately but this is an open forum and anyone could click on it, and its pretty damned horrific.

Suggest it gets edited out and only available on asking or something


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## renton72 (Feb 17, 2004)

David_A said:


> Guys really don't think that that link is appropriate on this forum.
> 
> Don't care if you distribute it privately but this is an open forum and anyone could click on it, and its pretty damned horrific.
> 
> Suggest it gets edited out and only available on asking or something


I totally agree!, i feel that link should be deleted :?


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

I personally don't but I have raised the issue in the moderators forum to get the collective thoughts.

In my opinion anyone who follows the link knows what they're gonna get so it's not a problem. If the other mods feel differently then it'll be removed.


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## digimeisTTer (Apr 27, 2004)

That's awful, however it does show in stark reality the horror of this issue.

Loz

You don't think your comments were inflammatory then?, i suggest you re-read what you wrote. Agreed your previous comments were fine. But this crap about being "not British enough" :?

Think on.


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## Loz180 (Sep 20, 2004)

digimeisTTer said:


> That's awful, however it does show in stark reality the horror of this issue.
> 
> Loz
> 
> ...


Okay, I'll have that. I was on my soap box a bit. Not deffending the comment but I would be interested to know if you think its a bit fishy that "AFTER" the beheading we find out that first, he tried to escape. Then, he had help from some of his captors. THEN the captors were working with MI6!?!?!

Sounds a bit lit the government are trying to make it look like they did have a go a helping him. I just wonder how genuine that all is. Its easier to say after the event.

Oh, and if i go missing after this post hits "the" radar. You'll all know I was right.


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## Loz180 (Sep 20, 2004)

Having seen the video clip.... 

Words fail me.

I know this is extreme but one wonders what the effect of showing that in schools would be on world unity. Maybe someone would realise that all bullsh*t politics aside, WE CAN'T GO ON LIKE THIS.


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## stephengreen (May 6, 2002)

I had a feeling that the link would be deleted,even though its freely available elsewhere.
The images show to me that the thought process's of these people just dont comprehend the thought process of the western mind.If they really think that they futher their cause by these act's they are surely mistaken. I would imagine that most western peoples resolve would be strenghthened and the tolarance of the islamic faith in whose hijacked name these deeds are done is further undermind.
Aside from this, it's made me realise, that lots of petty things in life (such as tosser's in corsa's at roundabouts) dont really matter in the scheme of things and now try to let such things ( not always sucessfully) wash over me.
Even though i cant help but think that the kidnappers have won a victory, in the sense that their deed has had such a profound effect on me, i gain strength from the fact that their victory, and the hostages loss of life ultimately show that the battle against these evil, evil people must be won.The idea that members of the human race with such evil in their soul's should ever be in a position to have any greater influance on the world makes for an even more disturbing image than the one thats been deleted.


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## andy761 (Jul 27, 2003)

Having just seen the clip, I wonder how these people can conduct such acts, in the most horrific way. I trully believe we cannot fight these people using the tactics and policies employed. Its like boxing with your hands tied between your back.
Anyone capable of treating any human being in such as way deserves no sympathy or any human rights.... no human being can act in that way!


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

saint said:


> Money - Risk - Money - Risk - He chose money over risk, he was certainly no humane volunteer.
> 
> Unfortunate about the consequences and am sorry for the family etc but..... he knew what he was letting himself in for.


Aye. May as well have been a mercenary - he was in a danger area for money and knew the risks. More fool him.

It's a shame but not a national tragedy meriting moments of silence etc. I'll save my sympathy for the innocent soldiers who don't have a choice about being there and certainly don't get the Â£Â£Â£s that Bigley and co were chasing.

Still, as Bush and Blair keep telling us, the world _is_ a safer place now. Do you think if they tell us enough times, we wil all start to believ them? :roll:


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## stephengreen (May 6, 2002)

garyc said:


> Aye. May as well have been a mercenary - he was in a danger area for money and knew the risks. More fool him.
> 
> It's a shame but not a national tragedy meriting moments of silence etc. I'll save my sympathy for the innocent soldiers who don't have a choice about being there and certainly don't get the Â£Â£Â£s that Bigley and co were chasing.
> 
> Still, as Bush and Blair keep telling us, the world _is_ a safer place now. Do you think if they tell us enough times, we wil all start to believ them? :roll:


 Doesnt a mercenary kill on behalf of any nation in return for money? Dont think the term covers doing a job for it, or we'd all be described thus.
Soldiers on the other hand, are professional, state sanctioned, killers, who join up knowing they may one day be called upon to kill or be killed.This hardly makes them innocents.


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## Loz180 (Sep 20, 2004)

Have to agree with you their Stephen.

And yes, these horrific acts do put our own little squabbles into perspective. Today I am going to let NOTHING get to me because I know just how blessed I am to be able to go about my day without the fears of those living under much more dire regimes.

If we can all become better citizens of the world as a result then I guess is an own goal for the sick fanatics that conduct these heartless acts.

One has to wonder, if they (MI6) could get close enough to bribe some bady guys to let bigley escape. How come they can't get close enough to wage a firearms led war against these life takers?

WOnder if the press will tactically side step that issue this week... :roll:


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## IanWest (May 7, 2002)

Have read this and taken a back seat so far. Ken was one of my closest friend's Uncle and I would not wish the last few weeks of the pain that they have gone through on my worst enemy.
Whilst we all agree that he didn't need to be out in Iraq, he felt that he was not a target as he was helping the people. 
And now the pain goes on until they can find the body and give him a decent burial.


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## bash-the-monkey (Jun 5, 2002)

Gworks:

ironically - GeT RiCh Or DiE TrYiN!!!

Leaving that aside, it's nothing to do with Islam but yet again its being used as an excuse to justify TERRORIST acts.

Bash
www.bashthemonkey.com


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## Nimbus (Sep 20, 2002)

Loz180 said:


> One has to wonder, if they (MI6) could get close enough to bribe some bady guys to let bigley escape. How come they can't get close enough to wage a firearms led war against these life takers?
> 
> WOnder if the press will tactically side step that issue this week... :roll:


and you believe everything you read in the media... :roll:


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## ag (Sep 12, 2002)

<Steps up to soap box>
Mr Bigley was in the wrong place at the wrong time for, perhaps, the wrong reasons.

Unfortunately this same description applies to countless thousand of Iraqis killed during Saddam's reign and since.

At least with Saddam in place the problem remained an internal one. OK Quwait was a stupid move. The problem is now one of East meets West. The real causes will be lost as the "Crusade against terror" gets into full swing.

The United States needs an enemy. Terrorists are good because it allows the yanks to look in their own back-yard as well as bomb the shit out of anybody they feel like doing it to.

I can only believe that this whole sorry saga, which for me is probably one of the low points in our history and certainly the one that makes me ashamed to be British, is a feeble attempt by the U.S. to arrest the industrial development of China by reducing its access to resources. This is pointless, the Chinese will start kicking the Americans' arses within the next 10 years and a bit of playing in the sand in Iraq is only going to lessen their ability to respond.

This whole episode has divided this country and Europe at a time when really we should all be hanging together.

<Steps down>

Nota "playing around in the sand in Iraq" in no-way reflects a lack of appreciation for our Soldiers and the risks they take or that I do not feel immense simpathy for those from the occupied country.


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

digimeisTTer said:


> Publicity is all they are after and fortunately they are the minority the ringleader isn't even an Iraqi!


Which is precisely why *no-one *should have ever reported about it!!!
Those scum bags wouldn't have had the satisfaction of publicity


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## Loz180 (Sep 20, 2004)

Nimbus said:


> Loz180 said:
> 
> 
> > One has to wonder, if they (MI6) could get close enough to bribe some bady guys to let bigley escape. How come they can't get close enough to wage a firearms led war against these life takers?
> ...


er, kinda the point I was making, nimbus :?


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## Loz180 (Sep 20, 2004)

Nimbus said:


> Loz180 said:
> 
> 
> > One has to wonder, if they (MI6) could get close enough to bribe some bady guys to let bigley escape. How come they can't get close enough to wage a firearms led war against these life takers?
> ...


er, kinda the point I was making, nimbus :?


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## Nimbus (Sep 20, 2002)

crossed wires mate.. 

an all round horrible business really


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## Loz180 (Sep 20, 2004)

indeed. But can I take the opportunity to say you have a great looking car.

What is the signifigance of the number plate?


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

stephengreen said:


> garyc said:
> 
> 
> > Aye. May as well have been a mercenary - he was in a danger area for money and knew the risks. More fool him.
> ...


Assassins kill for money. Mercenaries do a dirty job purely for the money. And no they do not have to be soldiers - although this has come to be the genarally understood term - people chasing the dirty dollar are equally included in the collective term.


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## pas_55 (May 9, 2002)

Loz180 said:


> indeed. But can I take the opportunity to say you have a great looking car.
> 
> What is the signifigance of the number plate?


He's slipped one :wink:


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## jwball (Jan 18, 2004)

Somone has posted the video of this sick event on ogrish.com!!


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## Nimbus (Sep 20, 2002)

Loz180 said:


> indeed. But can I take the opportunity to say you have a great looking car.
> 
> What is the signifigance of the number plate?


thankyou [smiley=cheers.gif] 
wish it was always that shiny...

happily the Discus has nothing to do with athletics... it's my other toy.. a Discus glider 

this one...


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

Nimbus said:


> Loz180 said:
> 
> 
> > indeed. But can I take the opportunity to say you have a great looking car.
> ...


I couldn't help noticing you appear to have chopped some guy's legs off... dangerous things, gliders!


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## Kell (May 28, 2002)

garyc said:


> stephengreen said:
> 
> 
> > garyc said:
> ...


I was at college with an Aussie guy that was a mercenary in Bosnia. And I mean Soldier, killing etc etc. He was ex-Australian army and most of the mercenaries he met while there were all ex-forces of some description and usually because they didn't fit in with the programme. He also didn't get paid in the end despite repeated promises. I believe he's now in the States doing close protection work. He was a handy guy to know. :wink:


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

...and not someone to cross I'd guess. :wink:


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## R6B TT (Feb 25, 2003)

garyc said:


> ...and not someone to cross I'd guess. :wink:


No, we're thinking of making him Membership Renewals man at the TTOC 8)


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## wesTT29 (May 22, 2004)

stephengreen said:


> Soldiers on the other hand, are professional, state sanctioned, killers, who join up knowing they may one day be called upon to kill or be killed.This hardly makes them innocents.


As one of those tarred with this sweeping, ill informed statement, I find this comment difficult on all sorts of levels. Randomly some thoughts:

Iâ€™d like to dispel the fiction that the forces are state sanctioned killers. We operate under exactly the same laws as you. It is the law which permits designated personnel to carry arms in the execution of their duties not the â€˜Stateâ€™. If something happens, we do not get any special favours or exceptions under the law. The only difference for us to the man in his home faced by a burglar with a knife is that we have Rules of Engagement. The purpose of RoE is to set out the circumstances under which we could engage where it is likely to be judged lawful. I say likely because any action will be reviewed and can be subject to scrutiny, enquiry or, indeed, prosecution. This is why there are people being Court Martialed right now for their actions in Iraq and why soldiers went to prison in Northern Ireland for shooting without proper justification. There are varying RoE which reflect the seriousness of the duties a serviceperson is discharging, the situation and the threat. Clearly, there are differences between being on gate duty at a home base, to patrolling in Belfast to protecting a nuclear weapons convoy. The intention is that if you act within the RoE you should be protected by the law; if you act outside RoE you will be prosecuted. You should also note the individual aspect of this. Every time you pull a trigger it is a personal decision that you should be able to justify. You cannot defend yourself with the â€˜only following ordersâ€™ argument.

What I am also worried by is that the comment might be read to have an implication that people join up so that they get an opportunity to kill. I've been in the forces for over a decade and I don't know one person who was this kind of nutter. Indeed, the selection process is designed to weed out the fantasists, weirdos, unreliable characters etc. The reasons for joining the forces are many and, more often than not, more complicated than the average person would have had the opportunity to appreciate. No matter what the reason, virtually all sailors, squadies or airmen have a higher than normal sense of service. There is an acceptance that we risk our lives but most reconcile that against probabilities and, under it all, the greater good.

Are the forces innocent? No. You are right on that. The important thing though is that they have no choice in the matter. We collectively serve our country and that means that we serve you for better or worse. Moreover, we are apolitical. If the country does not want us to do something it has to exercise its democratic right to influence or change the Government. In the case of Iraq, the not particularly vocal majority of the country is in favour of the action in Iraq. I keep my trap shut because I am acutely aware of the vocal minority and worse the irrational few but even being passive and listening I am constantly amazed that the vocal anti-war people are so few and far between out on the ground. This is not to say that the premise has not been proven to be incorrect but that doesnâ€™t alter the fact that most people still think that the world will be a better place when we overcome the present troubles.

To reiterate one point, we are in Iraq for political reasons and they were determined by our Government. If you donâ€™t like it, use your voice and use your vote. It is trite but true and is often under-appreciated that that is a right that those who went before us bequeath to today. So please, I would ask you to think before denigrating or disassociating yourself from our forces. They do an immense good and they serve our society loyally.


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

wesTT29 said:


> stephengreen said:
> 
> 
> > Soldiers on the other hand, are professional, state sanctioned, killers, who join up knowing they may one day be called upon to kill or be killed.This hardly makes them innocents.
> ...


That makes perfect sense, but still slightly misses the point. As a soldier, you know all of the above. You also know BEFORE YOU JOIN UP that you are being trained and paid with the possibility of going to "war".

Going to Iraq as a specific instance, wasn't the army's idea - it WAS the government. But (as I said) when you sign up, you accept that you will be told where to go by the government, regardless of whether you actually want to go.

You decision to fight in Iraq, therefore, is made WHEN YOU JOIN THE ARMY, as you are giving carte blanche to the ruling government to do with you what you see fit. You draw a decent salary on the back of this, but ultimately the choice as to whether or not you fight is made when you marry yourself to the army in the first place... this IS your choice and noone elses.


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## wesTT29 (May 22, 2004)

jampott said:


> That makes perfect sense, but still slightly misses the point. As a soldier, you know all of the above. You also know BEFORE YOU JOIN UP that you are being trained and paid with the possibility of going to "war".
> 
> Going to Iraq as a specific instance, wasn't the army's idea - it WAS the government. But (as I said) when you sign up, you accept that you will be told where to go by the government, regardless of whether you actually want to go.
> 
> You decision to fight in Iraq, therefore, is made WHEN YOU JOIN THE ARMY, as you are giving carte blanche to the ruling government to do with you what you see fit. You draw a decent salary on the back of this, but ultimately the choice as to whether or not you fight is made when you marry yourself to the army in the first place... this IS your choice and noone elses.


I must go and find your point now because I was addressing Stephen. Commenting on this alone though, I'm left with an impression that you might be slagging the Forces for taking part in the war. This is based on the fact that service people knew that they could be used in this way when they joined.

I take it then that you are a card carrying pacifist then and that you approve of nothing that the Forces do for your country, friends or the global community?

The reason I say this is that most people I know approve of the work done at Boscastle and many other civil emergencies, of the Search and Rescue helicopters, of the replacement fire service, of the peace that we helped to bring and continue to support in the Former Republic of Yugoslavia and in Sierra Leone, of the humanitarian aid we delivered in the Congo, Montserrat, Rwanda and Ethiopia, of the drugs that we interdict in the Caribbean, of the life rafts and food dropped from Nimrods to sinking craft in the North Atlantic and in many other peaceful and humanitarian missions. Make no mistake, the vast majority of the operational work of the Forces is to the good of UK plc by any possible measure.

It is equally true though that we are approved of for our core skills be they used deftly and with a light touch in places such as Malaya, Oman or Basra or with aggression and efficiency in places like The Falklands and Kuwait.

The rub though is that it has to be the services that do this and until we form our own Thunderbirds/International Rescue this will remain to be the case. Most people understand that the Forces serve them and that they are asked to take the rough with the smooth, to do the bad jobs as well as the good jobs and to do it without political bias, prejudice, fear or favour. Because of this most who have more than a superficial understanding support us irrespective of the decisions of the Government.

In your case, you believe that we all made our decision when we joined. This being the case, you cannot personally be selective about how and when you support the Forces because we are just as bad when we are being good. So how about thinking in depth rather than sound bites?


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## stephengreen (May 6, 2002)

wesTT29 said:


> stephengreen said:
> 
> 
> > Soldiers on the other hand, are professional, state sanctioned, killers, who join up knowing they may one day be called upon to kill or be killed.This hardly makes them innocents.
> ...


 I think you are reading something into the rest of the post that isnt/wasnt there and quite frankly your over long and largely irrelevant reply shows a paranoia and a defensiveness not warranted by the post subject. I simply stated that members of the armed force's in no way can be described as innocents (as your statment above clearly agrees with) 
R.O.E or the humanitarian aspect of their work wasnt discussed or relevant to the post.


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## wesTT29 (May 22, 2004)

stephengreen said:


> wesTT29 said:
> 
> 
> > stephengreen said:
> ...


So let me be brief.

1. Your comments use ill informed and pejorative language.
2. Just because you do not mean imply something does not stop others from interpretting it that way.
3. It is comments like that that perpetuate and promote a negative image of the Forces.
4. The freedom of a discussion forum is that I have the chance to counter these comments and to widen the scope for those with a wider interest.
5. Irrelevant or relevant you also have the right not to read it!

Paranoid; no. Defensive; enough to get me started. Proud of some of the things that HM Forces have achieved; certainly. Why don't I try belittling your profession and see what happens?


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## mike_bailey (May 7, 2002)

My cousin (a tank engineer) took part in the first Gulf war, he was due to fly out and at airport customs they searched a yank soldier's bag and pulled out an Iraqi soldier's arm that he was taking back as a trophy.

No point to me post really but what a nutter eh!?


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

mike_bailey said:


> My cousin (a tank engineer) took part in the first Gulf war, he was due to fly out and at airport customs they searched a yank soldier's bag and pulled out an Iraqi soldier's arm that he was taking back as a trophy.
> 
> No point to me post really but what a nutter eh!?


That demonstrates that only mad or desperate men join the army.

In Greece where the military service is compulsory everybody is trying to avoid it if possible. Nobody is mad to go to have someone shouting over his face for 2 years.

And YES I didn't do military service in Greece. I won't go into detail, but I avoided with perfectly legal terms and I am a free bird now. :wink:


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## David_A (May 7, 2002)

vlastan said:


> mike_bailey said:
> 
> 
> > My cousin (a tank engineer) took part in the first Gulf war, he was due to fly out and at airport customs they searched a yank soldier's bag and pulled out an Iraqi soldier's arm that he was taking back as a trophy.
> ...


No V. it doesn't please re-read what you've just stated, Mike gave an example of an individual, therefore it doesn't mean that all are warped as implied by your use of the word "only".

A little sweeping generalisation dont you think?[/b]


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## stephengreen (May 6, 2002)

wesTT29 said:


> stephengreen said:
> 
> 
> > wesTT29 said:
> ...


1. My comment state's a fact. If it's not PC to state the obvious, A fact it still is.
2. People dont need me to state or imply anything, they are quite capable of working things, and making their minds up, all by themsevles.My comments dont carry as much weight or influence as you imagine. 
3. Images of soldiers pissing on prisoners do a better job of that then i ever could.
4. My Answer no' 2 applies to you as well.
5 Seeing as it was addressed to me i thought it may be difficult to reply with out doing so.


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## Loz180 (Sep 20, 2004)

Wes,

You have raised my impression of the Forces not so much by the content of your posts ( although there was some illuminating stuff in there) but more by the measured tone with which you take your stance. If it were not for the arm smuggling, prisoner abusing, many innocent civilian killing representatives of your profession that we get to hear about ( bad new travels faster than a speeding bullet) Then it would be easy to just think highly of your profession.

Your presentation was amazingly well delivered and as a spokesman for the services you'd be top banana!

Wish they were all like you, mate.

As for all the quibbling over samantics. Leave it for the birds. We have bigger fish to fry.


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## wesTT29 (May 22, 2004)

Loz180 said:


> Wes,
> 
> You have raised my impression of the Forces not so much by the content of your posts ( although there was some illuminating stuff in there) but more by the measured tone with which you take your stance. If it were not for the arm smuggling, prisoner abusing, many innocent civilian killing representatives of your profession that we get to hear about ( bad new travels faster than a speeding bullet) Then it would be easy to just think highly of your profession.
> 
> ...


Loz,

Thank you for your comments. All I can ask is for you to trust me that most of us are normal right thinking people. I cannot say that we don't make mistakes but most of the bad egg incidents apply not to the UK (or European) forces but to our US colleagues.

As regards the comment elsewhere about prisoners being pi$$ed on, I should remind anyone who still believes this that it was faked. The TA soldier who did this solely to get money out of the tabloids went to Court Martial on Monday. I look forward to the Court's decision.


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## Loz180 (Sep 20, 2004)

Thanks for setting the record straight on the urine thing. it is pretty dispicable and once the seed is planted it does erode a lot of good will.

Do you mind if I ask what you do in the Army? just curious and hoping that you have a rank that allows you to have infulence of a great many as you seem to be right on the money with your thinking.

Enough flattery now. But would be interested to know. IM me if thats better.

Cheers,

Loz


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