# 3.2 rebuild questions



## spaceplace (Mar 10, 2013)

hi all, some of you may have read about my engine rattle, I've brought some engine flush and soon will be getting it flushed (I know, I know - but its my only option before a rebuild) my question is (this is fearing the worst that the flush doesnt work or makes it worse) I'm thinking possible causes could be bottom end shells or dead hydrollic tappets- so... what sort of price are bottom end bearings? I dont think the labour costs should be to bad as i guess its just a sump off job to access them, would I be right in thinking the tappets would be more labour intensive? i've also seen a company on ebay that will replace the engine for 2k (engine included)- I dont want to go down that route or pay that much but worst case thats what I will have to do, so what do you guys think is my best bet? I've never really done much bottom end work so dont really know the lay out, am i right in thinking the bottom end bearings are the same as the bottom end shells? does anyone have a link to buy the bottom end shells/ tappets? anyone got any other ideas what the rattle i have is at 2500rpm- only under load- revs sweet in neutral- and no its not the heat shield (I wish it was) I'm thinking its more bottom end rather than tappets as i would expect tappets to be noisey when not under load as well, where as bottom end would be noisy when under load only, any suggestions would be welcome and some links to bottom end bearings would be good.

I plan to replace oil filter (had oil and filter done a few weeks ago) run with flush, drain oil, clean pick up pipe, fit new oil filter and fill with 5/40 oil (a little thicker than 5/30 to take up any slack)

look forward to hearing your opinions

thanks


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## L33JSA (Jun 30, 2010)

You need to get it properly diagnosed first before throwing parts at it willy nilly!!

Also rattles are usually top end - knocks are more bottom end.


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## J•RED (Feb 10, 2013)

Wow sorry to read this mate, but yes shells are the bearings. Iv done some engine building before but only on industrial equipment. Iv seen a thread recently that there is a rattle that is quite common on the 3.2 but its hard to know if its the same your experiencing. Hope you get to the bottom of it soon though!

Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App


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## spaceplace (Mar 10, 2013)

hi, its a rattly noise sounds like cracked exhaust manifold, its very hard to diagnose as it only happens under load, you can kind of hear the noise run through the exhaust as you change up (its a dsg unit) i agree it sounds more top end but the fact it only happens under load makes me think more bottom end, i guess the question is- what would rattle only under load? i should add theres no vibration in the car or loss of power, as soon as you get to 3k rpm noise goes away. if you knock it into nuetral while driving and rev it theres also no noise - it really is only under load, I am also going to get the engine/g-box mounts checked but it doesnt sound like that to me- its like a tingly rattle- sounds like pinking but had that checked and its all ok. could even be a sticky valve? maybe? its just so hard to put your finger on it as only under load so obvoisly you need to be driving it. sounds like theres little ball bearings in the exhaust, i've heard the back box baffles can come away but pretty sure its engine end not rear exhaust. its a light noise (trying to explain is hard) maybe a compression test to rule out sticky/chipped off valve may be a good bet, dont worry i'm not going to rip the engine apart yet but i'm think worse case at the moment, keep the comments going as anything/ideas are very welcome

thanks


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## L33JSA (Jun 30, 2010)

Take it somewhere to get checked out because currently you're clutching at straws and throwing loads of parts that 'could' be knackered.

Also having looked at your logs the other day I can't imagine it being anything too drastic since it appears to be making good power and hardly pulling any timing at all.

It's more likely to be an ancillary to the engine that's making the noise.

You're wasting your time/money & effort with the engine flush IMHO too.


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## spaceplace (Mar 10, 2013)

ball bearings in a tin can would be a good way to descibe it- tbh it does sound like a loose heat shield but deffo isnt that.the way it runs through the exhaust would suggest its engine and thinking about it would also suggest top end, sounds like tappets but wouldnt these be noisy all the time ? not just under load? possibly cam chain? (checked these on vagcom and are well within tollerance. could the chain tensioner not be working?


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## spaceplace (Mar 10, 2013)

L33JSA said:


> Take it somewhere to get checked out because currently you're clutching at straws and throwing loads of parts that 'could' be knackered.
> 
> Also having looked at your logs the other day I can't imagine it being anything too drastic since it appears to be making good power and hardly pulling any timing at all.
> 
> ...


hi thanks for reply, the reason i'm going down the flush route is because when i got the oil changed the filter was horrible and looked like it hadnt been changed in ages, it was very hard and had bits of what looked like dry oil (hard kind of lumps) so i was thinking a blocked oil gallery somewhere- i should also add that if i drive the car veryy slowly and change gear at 1500rpm untill oil is warm - when you rev to 3k rpm (noise at 2.5k rpm) the noise is a lot quieter


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## L33JSA (Jun 30, 2010)

Hydraulic lifters would be more noisy at idle especially after a hard run.

If the camchain tensioner wasnt working/tensioning properly you'd definitely know about it.

How have you ruled out heatshields?

Could also be your catalytic convertor.

It's very hard to diagnose without actually hearing it - so I suggest you take it to someone who can do just that.


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## spaceplace (Mar 10, 2013)

spaceplace said:


> L33JSA said:
> 
> 
> > Take it somewhere to get checked out because currently you're clutching at straws and throwing loads of parts that 'could' be knackered.
> ...


a good shout on the aux pulleys tho - i'll get them checked- i guess they would rattle at that rev range if they were going to, i think 2500rpm is where things do tend to rattle, its just a tinny noise tho not really somthing i've heard from aux before, and the way it trravels through the exhaust suggest engine rather than aux (no differnt if air con is on or off) but maybe worth pulling the aux belts and giving it a run to see


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## L33JSA (Jun 30, 2010)

spaceplace said:


> .... the filter was horrible and looked like it hadnt been changed in ages, it was very hard and had bits of what looked like dry oil (hard kind of lumps)


....so the filter has been doing it's job then? Where's the problem?

I really wouldnt waste your time flushing the engine - potentially if there are bits built up you're only going to dislodge them and potentially cause yourself more issues.

I would also imagine that if you had blocked oil galleries they would have manifested themselves into much more serious and obvious issues by now.


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## spaceplace (Mar 10, 2013)

L33JSA said:


> Hydraulic lifters would be more noisy at idle especially after a hard run.
> 
> If the camchain tensioner wasnt working/tensioning properly you'd definitely know about it.
> 
> ...


thanks for reply

in what way would I know the tensioner wasnt working? what would be the signs (I dont think it is that)

i've had it on a ramp and checked all heat shields and moved exhaust as much as i can and not touching or loose shields,

it has a decat on it so deff not a broken up cat

i agreee the tappets would be noisy on tick over as well- under load shouldnt make a diffence to noisy tappets, i had a loose heat shield on my 225 and its deff not the same noise, its the way it tinkles down the exhaust when you change gear and kind of fizzles out until you hit that rev range again


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## spaceplace (Mar 10, 2013)

L33JSA said:


> spaceplace said:
> 
> 
> > .... the filter was horrible and looked like it hadnt been changed in ages, it was very hard and had bits of what looked like dry oil (hard kind of lumps)
> ...


yes the filter deff had been doing its job but this was to the point where the element was so hard and filled with crap that the oil would have had a hard time passing through


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## spaceplace (Mar 10, 2013)

this is a video of the noise i took a while ago, tbh tho you cant really hear it very well so not very helpfull






its also a lot louder when going past walls, just the echo i guess


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## L33JSA (Jun 30, 2010)

The noise at about 13 seconds?


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## spaceplace (Mar 10, 2013)

L33JSA said:


> The noise at about 13 seconds?


its kind of through out but tbh its really hard to hear on that video, i'll try and get another one up dont think i'll really be able to get a good sound clip of it. i think i will just have to go through each thing step by step, you said you looked at my logs before- i dont really know much about that side of things but would low compression- sticky/chipped off valve show up as something funny on there? or would you not be able to tell? like you said it pulls well and its smooth when not under load, i think thats the main point that it only happens under load - thats what made me think bottom end, i think you're right about tappets- it sounds like tappets but they would be noisy all the time. even when going down a hill and not really putting it under load at all it will happen but when in neautral and moving theres no noise, i dont think its g/box but possibly final drive, although i'm convinced its engine, i just cant think what it would be. would a dodgy injector cause a noise? the fact theres no eml and both you and wak says the logs look good just makes me think something isnt being lubricated with oil enough. are there any other logs i could run that may show up somthing? i only have vcds lite so can only measure up to block 29 or so i think. do you think its worth running some fuel cleaner through it? although like the oil flush i really dont like using these things - as you said they can do more harm than good


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## Matt B (Apr 8, 2007)

It's just sounds a bit like an exhaust rattle to me but the vid is a bit poo. Whereabouts are u based?


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## spaceplace (Mar 10, 2013)

you're right it does sound like exhaust, i've had this checked and couldnt find any leaks, to me it sounds like a cracked exhaust manifold but wouldnt i be able to hear this all the time? its the under load bit which gets me, wouldnt a hole in the exhaust be noisy when just revving it?


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## spaceplace (Mar 10, 2013)

also the fact that if you drive it slowly and change gear at 1500rpm untill the oil is warm - its not as noisy- its like it needs time for the oil to reach the head and properly curculate - which is what lead me to the idea of a blocked oil gallery or blocked pick up pipe- hence why i was thinking a oil flush maybe worth a go. possibly cracked manifold and as it heats up the exhaust expands and seals up the crack slighty but i would have thought as it expanded it would open the crack up rather that close it but i guess it depends where the crack is- if that is the problem - but yes if anyone said whats that noise- my first bet would be cracked manifold or gasket- plus it has a decat on it so there is a chance who ever put it on had moved/cracked the manifold or down pipe- of course its very hard to see- i've used a small mirror but cant see any sign of leaks- blackening etc


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## spaceplace (Mar 10, 2013)

heres another sound clip,






its most noticeable at around 7 seconds and onwards, it really sounds like a exhaust manifold/ manifold gasket to me

you can hear it best on a tinny speaker set up- prob best if you can play it through your phone, theres no leaks from the decat back so if it is exhaust it must be manifold or down pipe

what do you guys think? play it a few times and concentrate at the 7sec - mark

notice how it flutters away when it changes up gear, but remember it only does this when under load, would i not be able to hear a leaking exhaust manifold when stationary and revving? or is it always louder when under load?


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## V6RUL (May 28, 2009)

Right, now the sound is better.
I think it could be your rear upper hydraulic chain tensioner..









Chain logs won't show issue as that measurement only measures between VVT adjusters and the rear tensioner is before these.
The tensioner can be removed with everything in place and is mentioned in my chains how to in my build thread a few pages back. The tensioner has small galleries and can seize easily.

The other possibility maybe the variable vane flap in your inlet manifold.
There is a how to on the front page of the Community thread.
Steve


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## L33JSA (Jun 30, 2010)

Still very hard to hear it.

In the original video it sounded very much like an exhaust blow or exhaust vibration.

Have you discounted gearbox issues?


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

It's hard to tell from the video, but it sounds similar to a rattle my car had (not a TT) which ended up being an exhaust heat shield up near the bottom-rear of the engine. Have you actually been under the car and physically checked for anything loose or touching the exhaust? As it's a 'free' fix, it's the first thing I'd check.


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## V6RUL (May 28, 2009)

Is your decat straight pipes or the original, just gutted?
Steve


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## spaceplace (Mar 10, 2013)

thanks for the reply's , the decat is a straight pipe (not gutted cat), 99% sure its not gearbox- box feels good and the way the noise seems to travel down the exhaust deff makes me think its engine. 99% sure its not a heat shield - i've been under and checked and theres no knocking if you move the exhaust and no loose heat shields.

i deff think its more along the lines of something like the hydraulic tensioner as you say steve. this sounds much more like likely to me, is the tensioner on the right hand side of the engine by the oil filler cap? on tick over i deff have a noise there as if the chain is not under enough tension- i read up on it before and it seemed fairly normal to have this noise which i always thought was odd and didnt really seem right to me. its a kind of whirling noise- basically like the chain isnt tight against the nylon block

when driving just a small amount of throttle will make it noisy, but again only under load (even if it is barely under load)- would this be the case with the chain tensioner? would it be alot noisier under load? - i'm thinking it might be. i think this is something worth changing- and i'm guessing its fairly easy if it can be done without removing stuff, i'll have a look at your build thread, i' don't know much about the variable vane flap but doesn't that only work when the engine is cold to help emissions? my noise is there wether its cold or hot.

i think this hydraulic chain tensioner may be a very good start, are they pricey to buy? main dealer only part i'm guessing?

thanks again for the posts guys


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## spaceplace (Mar 10, 2013)

pinched one of your pics steve,

is the the chain tensioner ?


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## spaceplace (Mar 10, 2013)

is the tensioner something i could remove myself and just clean out with paraffin? if i do it when the engines cold i guess most the oil will have drained to the bottom, is it just a case of unscrew, clean, refit?

cheers


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## V6RUL (May 28, 2009)

spaceplace said:


> pinched one of your pics steve,
> 
> is the the chain tensioner ?


Yep, that's the tensioner as indicated.
Take it out hot or cold.
The tensioner is spring loaded to keep it extended.
It has some strength to the spring, but does squeeze in with 2 strong fingers.
The tensioner needs to be primed in oil when going back in ie submerged in a container oil and then squeeze and release the plunger to draw oil into it.
You should be able to remove the tensioner without removing anything else.

The variable vane in the inlet plenum is rpm related and changes position at around 2500rpm.
Steve


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## spaceplace (Mar 10, 2013)

cheers for the info, i'll have a go at the tensioner this week, i'm guessing the variable vane cant be accessed without removing the inlet manifold, do you think the tensioner would be louder under load? this is the only thing that keeps bugging me, i would have thought with the amount of noise i'm getting id be able to hear it when staitionary. also with the variable vane - if it works at 2500rpm then i should be able to hear it when still and revving, even when moving if you knock it into neutral and rev it it sounds fine so it must either be engine mounts or something in the engine that only rattles when load is applied. i've noticed its also quieter in 1st gear, -2nd-3rdand 4th is when its loudest and 5th and 6 you cant really hear it but think thats becuase of wind noise etc drowing it out.

is there a way to test the exhaust manifold for leaks? i do think the tensioner is a good thing to look at but why would it only be noisy under load?

a list of engine components that are only loud/noisey when under load would be good?

1. bottom end
2. loose engine mounts/ gbox mounts
3. heat shields- dues to engine torque movment
4. aux pullys- possibly hitting somthing - again due to worn engine mounts
5. exhaust pulling away on joints due to engine movments

can anyone add to this list?

would the chain only be noisy under load?

i think i'm right in saying that between 2400rpm and 3000rpm is when the engine is most likely to move on its mounts, its like when a clutch will slip the most is at these kind of revs when i think the engine is under the most strain, once its past 3k rpm it settles down and engine movement is a lot less.

i'm booking it in tomorrow to get looked at but am just trying to get a general idea of what to get them to check before i get a huge bill just for them to check everything. plus it gets all your brains thinking


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## V6RUL (May 28, 2009)

spaceplace said:


> cheers for the info, i'll have a go at the tensioner this week, i'm guessing the variable vane cant be accessed without removing the inlet manifold, do you think the tensioner would be louder under load? this is the only thing that keeps bugging me, i would have thought with the amount of noise i'm getting id be able to hear it when staitionary. also with the variable vane - if it works at 2500rpm then i should be able to hear it when still and revving, even when moving if you knock it into neutral and rev it it sounds fine so it must either be engine mounts or something in the engine that only rattles when load is applied. i've noticed its also quieter in 1st gear, -2nd-3rdand 4th is when its loudest and 5th and 6 you cant really hear it but think thats becuase of wind noise etc drowing it out.
> 
> is there a way to test the exhaust manifold for leaks? i do think the tensioner is a good thing to look at but why would it only be noisy under load?
> 
> ...


I think you can service the variable vane with the inlet still in place.

I would say more oil maybe sloshing around under load and may make things quieter.

Revving whilst stationary is not enough load as you have minimal resistance from the gearbox and no wind resistance.

Variable vane isn't getting the same load in neutral as if you were running.

A load dependant noise can help indicate where the issue lies.

I don't think you have an exhaust leak as the noise should be more like a loud tick, even at idle.

The chain can sound like a ticking at idle but once under load you are getting chain slap on the underside of the rocker cover which should be evident with a visual inspection and if left will wear a hole in your cover.

If mounts are worn you will see the engine rocking when revving with the bonnet open.
Steve


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## spaceplace (Mar 10, 2013)

thanks ,

it sounds like exhaust but like you say i should be able to hear that when idel, i think i'll check that tensioner and see how it looks and give it a clean, then i think i'll have to go for a oil flush and pray i dont block something else up, then i'll drain oil and fit a new oil filter and fill up with 5/40 - i've already ordered some "forte" oil flush which is meant to be the best- i was advisded to stay away from cheap parrafin solutions so i'll give it a go and report back - hopefully i can get it done this week or next week if the oil flush is delivered. fingers crossed.

do you know how to service the variable vane? i really dont know anything about this vain, would a blocked oil way cause it to not work as it should?

cheers


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## V6RUL (May 28, 2009)

There are a few tips on the community section..
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=224222&p=2073422#p2073422
Steve


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## spaceplace (Mar 10, 2013)

thanks steve , i'll have a read,

think all i can do now is just go through the steps, i'm thinking worse case is a chipped valve, dryed out tappets or bottom end shells, i hope if its any of these worst case things i can get them fixed for under a 1k. but fingers crossed a oil flush will clear any blocked gallieries and a slightly thicker oil will take up any slack. i hate noises like this that cant really be diagnosed without changing/trying things. i'll be sure to update and try to snap some photos while things are being done.

cheers for the input


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## spaceplace (Mar 10, 2013)

one more quick question, on the link you just sent me, you know the valve (white ball that you can push down) mine moves up and down ok- would it be worth me cable tieing in down and seeing if that had any effect? i guess it wouldnt do any harm to try? or would it? if it didnt make any difference would this also indicate a problem with the vvt, i have played with this before and pushing it down when on idle made no diffence to engine revs or engine sound- should it? at what point should it be sucked down?

cheers again


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## V6RUL (May 28, 2009)

spaceplace said:


> one more quick question, on the link you just sent me, you know the valve (white ball that you can push down) mine moves up and down ok- would it be worth me cable tieing in down and seeing if that had any effect? i guess it wouldnt do any harm to try? or would it? if it didnt make any difference would this also indicate a problem with the vvt, i have played with this before and pushing it down when on idle made no diffence to engine revs or engine sound- should it? at what point should it be sucked down?
> 
> cheers again


The vane is operated by a solenoid so its either open or closed.
Closed means closed with no free play as this can cause unwanted vibrations/flutter.
It should switch open about 2500rpm.
I would try disconnecting the vac pipe, blocking the end of the pipe with a screw, tie-wrapping the switch in a fixed position and going for a run, but not too hard, maybe upto 3500rpms under load and keep your ears open..

Where a outs do you live..
Steve


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## spaceplace (Mar 10, 2013)

thanks i'll give that a try, i live near to bristol but work silly hours so dont get much time to meet up with a fellow tt'er, i'll give it a go and see what happens, im hoping to have it booked in within the next week or two so should hopfully have an answer soon, i dont think this is the problem as i dont have any hessitation and judders- it all runs well apart from the noise but i'll give it go just incase it makes some kind of difference.

cheers


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## V6RUL (May 28, 2009)

spaceplace said:


> thanks i'll give that a try, i live near to bristol but work silly hours so dont get much time to meet up with a fellow tt'er, i'll give it a go and see what happens, im hoping to have it booked in within the next week or two so should hopfully have an answer soon, i dont think this is the problem as i dont have any hessitation and judders- it all runs well apart from the noise but i'll give it go just incase it makes some kind of difference.
> 
> cheers


If your flap isn't going fully open due to wear then the rushing incoming air is being impeded which can lead to noise..
Steve


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## spaceplace (Mar 10, 2013)

so when on idle it should be in the up position? and when driving it should be sucked to the down position? its currenty in the up possition and i can push it down with my fingers and i can hear somthing opening or closing in the inlet manifold, is this right? i will push it down and hold it there with a cable tie and see if this makes a difference (being carful not to drive it hard)

cheers


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## V6RUL (May 28, 2009)

spaceplace said:


> so when on idle it should be in the up position? and when driving it should be sucked to the down position? its currenty in the up possition and i can push it down with my fingers and i can hear somthing opening or closing in the inlet manifold, is this right? i will push it down and hold it there with a cable tie and see if this makes a difference (being carful not to drive it hard)
> 
> cheers


 :wink: 
Steve


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## bodben (Aug 10, 2017)

I know this is a long shot, but I am going to resurrect this one because I have exactly the problem described, thinking vacuum leak perhaps but i'm no mechanic so who knows. the car will be going to specialist for a once over but was this ever resolved?
Cheers!

Ben


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## rusTTy_racer (Sep 7, 2015)

Where are you Bud? - add your location to the signature! I don't have the time to read the complete post but guess you have a rattle? Bottom end of the BHE engine seems fairly bomb proof (assuming you have had it serviced and regular oil changes) but the timing chain is a known area for issues. Some have had a replacement but done on the cheap so with only limited success for the long term.

VagCom (VCDS) can give you a guide to the general condition of the wear of the chain and you can confirm operation of the VVT adjusters. This is a complicated engine with loads of sensors but when in good condition is epic. PM me if you want more help


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## bodben (Aug 10, 2017)

Hey mate,

I will try to summarise, the noise sounds like a blowing manifold gasket or something like that, a 'exhaust' sound but louder and more metallic, and only when the engine is under load, (its a DSG) so say 30mph, 6th gear, accelerating but not to the point of kick down, or lugging up a steep hill. at all other times the car performs beautifully. I just took a long shot that the OP might have had a resolution but i'm not even sure he is on the forum anymore. Car is off to an Audi Specialist for the once over.

Cheers for the reply!


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## spaceplace (Mar 10, 2013)

Wow old post. Op here.. Honestly never got rid of the noise and in the end I put it down to exhaust leak. At the time of post it was fitted with a de cat (no good for torque) once I removed this and fitted the cat the noise was a lot less noticeable, there's still ticks and rattles but that's just the chains, it's at 120,000 miles now and chain stretch is on - 5 and - 6 (original chains) so not too bad. I've also got a squeak at tick over that i can't get rid of but again it's been there years and got no worse. These engines are a little noisy, it's just the way they are

I would get your chain stretch measured, blocks 208 and 209 in vag com. I also use 5 40 oil to help with the high miles. I also see you wrote 30mph in 6th and accelerating, there's nothing wrong with that but I feel if accelerating at 30mph it's best to be in 4th or lower. I think with the lazy 3.2 engine people under rev them a little, they like to be reved. I'd be interested to hear what audi have to say. Also what mileage are you on? Oh and consider a new maf sensor, you might not have a fault light for it but neither did I and changing made a huge difference, as did a new brake switch. Both cheap but big differences.


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