# would you consider having laser eye treatment correction?



## p1tse (Sep 20, 2004)

*would you consider having laser eye treatment?*​
glasses wearer - yes2040.82%glasses wearer - no1326.53%non-glasses wearer - yes918.37%non-glasses wearer - no612.24%other option12.04%


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## p1tse (Sep 20, 2004)

something i had considered but not much about until a friend is thinking about it quite a bit and maybe going through it.

i'm a glasses wearer, and can be annoying at times. knock them, in the rain, can't see in shower, swimming etc.

i know it's harder for people to consider if you have perfect eye sights, but if you didn't would you?

for those who do wear glasses, would you consider?

contact lenses don't seem that comfortable for long duration etc.


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2007)

Its something i was thinking of doing. And this has brought it back in my head.
As soon as ive recovered im gonna go book it.


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## Dotti (Mar 9, 2003)

I have heard it only lasts so many years before your eyes go back to how they were before you had the lazer treatment. They do each eye at different times apparently.

And no, I wouldn't have it done! You get one set of eyes and if the operation went horrifically wrong thats it!


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2007)

Dotti said:


> I have heard it only lasts so many years before your eyes go back to how they were before you had the lazer treatment.


Yeah, but its pretty much hassle free, not too expensive and mights stop me hitting things with my jetbike.
Plus, be good for my diving.
You know anyone whos had it done?


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2007)

In fact, does anyone know anyone who's had it done?


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## Dotti (Mar 9, 2003)

Yes I do . My friend's son had it done. He is fine and can see perfect . Knowing my luck though it would go wrong. I only have very weak eyesight -1.25 in each eye and for the moment happy with my contact lenses . Probably not worth me having lazer treatment done


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## p1tse (Sep 20, 2004)

the friend i mentioned know a few people

all have been great and would recommend it.

apparently it takes only 30 mins and when you come out they wait 15mins, before asking you to open your eyes and assess.

apparently it's pretty full proof. main bad scenario if it doesn't work and don't get 20/20. but they ask to get it done again.

it's not that expensive in comparison to say a pair of new glasses, eye test can cost upto Â£400. while the surgery per eye is between Â£600-Â£1500

where did you hear the eyes get worse again? i asked my friend but apparently only have about 25years experience, so can't comment on long long term, but all have been ok to now


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## Dotti (Mar 9, 2003)

p1tse said:


> where did you hear the eyes get worse again? i asked my friend but apparently only have about 25years experience, so can't comment on long long term, but all have been ok to now


It was my friend who told me who's son had it done, that the eyes go back to how they were prior to lazer treatment.

Apparently your eyes start going back to how they used to be as you get older and your eyes naturally begin to deteriate 

The time it takes to have the treatment is incredible - 30 mins  . Thats kind of bearable I guess when you think childbirth takes hours and is ever so painful :wink:


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## dave_D (Sep 16, 2004)

As far as I understand your eyes deteriorate over time so you _may_ need reading glasses in the future.

I would say it is pretty safe to have done, lots of procedures all over the world and a good success rate. According to an eye specialist I heard give a lecture the only complication he has ever seen is allergic reactions to the antibiotic eye drops- makes you look a bit puffy for a couple of days like a bad hangover!! 

I don't wear glasses but would have it done before thinking about using lenses or glasses.

Only tip eye specialist said in lecture is to make sure you know who is doing it. Find an eye consultant at a local private hospital or NHS trust and find out where he does them privately. Otherwise you may not be getting someone with as much experience as a specialist.


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## p1tse (Sep 20, 2004)

i did forget to mention, i think reading glasses maybe needed, something similar to when you get older (for those who need it); so it's just bringing that time sooner.

for those who do wear glasses and said yes, what degree eye sight are you?

i'm almost -5 in both eyes.

interesting to hear people say it deteriorates again, as i've heard different (but not done a whole research on it)


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## Wondermikie (Apr 14, 2006)

p1tse said:


> i did forget to mention, i think reading glasses maybe needed, something similar to when you get older (for those who need it); so it's just bringing that time sooner.
> 
> for those who do wear glasses and said yes, what degree eye sight are you?
> 
> ...


It just deteriorates naturally, which happens whether you have laser treatment or not. I wear glasses all the time, don't think I would get it done TBH, too scared in case something went wrong  , although my Dad and two friends have had it done with no problems. My Dad has reading glasses too.

I don't mind wearing glasses, I have 3 pairs that I swap around. You can get swimming goggles with prescription lenses too, although maybe not up to -5.0 though.

I'm 2.75 in one eye and 3.0 in the other, can't remember if that's + or -.


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## p1tse (Sep 20, 2004)

i presume your short-sighted i.e. can see close but not far

-3 : you still can't do without them.

don't you think it would be nice without them
swimming goggles, but what happens when you come out of the water?


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## Wondermikie (Apr 14, 2006)

I am short sighted yep. I suppose it would be nice without them, so many people wear them nowadays - haven't really thought about it much TBH.

Goggles - suppose you'd look a bit weird walking around with them on once you'd come out of the water :lol:


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## gcp (Aug 8, 2002)

Mrs had it done about 3 years ago

No problems, no side effects, no more Â£300 a time glasses either.

If my eyes ever warrant it I would have it done.


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## p1tse (Sep 20, 2004)

gcp said:


> Mrs had it done about 3 years ago
> 
> No problems, no side effects, no more Â£300 a time glasses either.
> 
> If my eyes ever warrant it I would have it done.


tell us more:
how, procedure, where, duration, advice, what to look out for etc.

comments like this makes me want too


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## p1tse (Sep 20, 2004)

Wondermikie said:


> I am short sighted yep. I suppose it would be nice without them, so many people wear them nowadays - haven't really thought about it much TBH.
> 
> Goggles - suppose you'd look a bit weird walking around with them on once you'd come out of the water :lol:


i know many people do wear them these days, but it's personal preference and think it's sometime annoying. 
i wear rimless and wanted to hang a clock on a wall, got my head close to the wall to look and allign it up, and wack (the glasses)

sometimes the glasses aren't comfortable and are annoying, sometimes i forget they are there until i have an itch near my eye or something and wack again.


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## Hev (Feb 26, 2005)

In a word............. NOPE!

I've heard too many horror stories   

The procedures have more success with stronger prescriptions but there is no guarantee that it will drop the prescription back to you not needing specs (could end up with still needing them for driving for example).

The natural ageing process of the body does not exclude the eyes. The lens in your eye is constantly changing shape to focus at various distances. As you get older, the ability for it to change shape reduces which has a knock on effect that in order to focus at close distances, since the lens cannot change shape enough, you push the object further away to bring it into focus - eventually resulting in.......................... 'arms not long enough for the body' syndrome :roll:. The treatment? Reading specs! Corrective surgery has no effect on the elasticity of the lens therefore, at some point there is a very high chance you'll need reading specs just like everyone else!

People with high minus prescriptions (short-sighted) usually find it easier to take their glasses off to read - and can therefore delay the need for reading specs. BUT if they have corrective surgery, they can find they need reading glasses sooner.

Personally? I like my contact lenses! I swap between specs and lenses on a regular basis. I wear silicone lenses that I can sleep in if I want, they don't dry, they are healthier for my eyes since they allow more oxygen in etc etc......

And no, I am not trying to keep myself in a job :roll: .............. 99% of the population will still need specs (corrective surgery or not) :wink:

Hev x
~ your friendly optician 8)

<note to self: must stop boring the pants off folk - shatters the blonde illusion!>


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## saint (Dec 6, 2002)

[smiley=sleeping.gif]

Too late


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## Hev (Feb 26, 2005)

saint said:


> [smiley=sleeping.gif]
> 
> Too late


You vain Git!


Hev x


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## John C (Jul 5, 2002)

Hev said:


> <note to self: must stop boring the pants off folk - shatters the blonde illusion!>


God I've got a fortnight of that starting Monday, what have I done?!


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## saint (Dec 6, 2002)

John C said:


> Hev said:
> 
> 
> > <note to self: must stop boring the pants off folk - shatters the blonde illusion!>
> ...


Been Hev'd - that's what..... though tbh I dunno who will suffer most :roll:

And anything interesting to come back to?


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## TTonyTT (Apr 24, 2006)

My (16 year old) step son has just had laser eye treatment to correct a "squint". That was what the doctors called it anyway. He had the eyes-pointing-in-a-different-direction problem. Not hugely different directions, but enough to be noticeable. And the condition got worse when he was tired. It affected his vision (seeing the blackboard at school).

Anyways ... quick op at the local MRSA factory. In & out in the day. He said that the stitches felt "odd" for a few days, but they soon dissolved, and his eyes are now fine. That was about 6months ago.

Would he do it again? Absolutely.


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## NUM_TT (Apr 5, 2004)

Been there, done that.

Easy peasy walked in had both eyes done at the same time was back out in around 30 mins had it done about 5 years ago no problems so far chucked my contacts and glasses never looked back. 

[edit] Optimax, Bristol. Surgeon was I seem to recall an Italian lady.


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## John C (Jul 5, 2002)

saint said:


> And anything interesting to come back to?


Hopefully on the day I get back but realistically 1 or 2 weeks after that.


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## Dotti (Mar 9, 2003)

TTonyTT said:


> stitches


 :?


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## TTonyTT (Apr 24, 2006)

Dotti said:


> TTonyTT said:
> 
> 
> > stitches
> ...


Yes - it was a bit more complex than just walking in to a shop and having a quick blast with the laser! They needed to do some stuff round the back of the eyeball as well.

The less I knew about it, the happier I was


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## Dotti (Mar 9, 2003)

TTonyTT said:


> Dotti said:
> 
> 
> > TTonyTT said:
> ...


So he had more than just lazer treatment then?


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## Leg (Jan 11, 2006)

Brother wore glasses, hated them, couldnt get to grips with contacts, had this done, hasnt looked back BUt he has looked forward, with perfect vision and no problems.

I am not responsible for the atrocious pun used in the post above, my shit sense of humour is.


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## Rhod_TT (May 7, 2002)

Wondermikie said:


> Goggles - suppose you'd look a bit weird walking around with them on once you'd come out of the water :lol:


I wear my contacts when I swim each day and just use normal goggles over the top. I make sure my eyes are shut when I first go in the water (without goggles on).


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## TTCool (Feb 7, 2005)

In a word, No :roll:

Joe


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

maybe, but after the penis extension.


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## Wallsendmag (Feb 12, 2004)

Toshiba said:


> maybe, but after the penis extension.


I knew it. :lol:


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

Way i figure it, if i make it bigger i wont need my eye sight to be as good.


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## jam (May 8, 2002)

Leg said:


> Brother wore glasses, hated them, couldnt get to grips with contacts, had this done, hasnt looked back BUt he has looked forward, with perfect vision and no problems.


Leg, did he have it done in Leeds?

Cheers


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## Guy (May 13, 2002)

Having it done tomorrow â€" Thursday 22.02.07 - after 40 years of wearing glasses with a stronger prescription every time. Part of my job is to have a LGV license and at my last medical, the doctor said that he would have had me registered blind 8) if I didn't wear glasses! 
I am short sighted and also have prismatic lenses that tend to bugger up depth perception (no, I don't need a pilot's license). It is accepted I will need glasses to read / look close up â€" the theory is they can be bought over the counter without a prescription. Contact lenses were tried for a year but found that cleaning them with oil ingrained fingers and palms a chore and inserting or removing them at 3am a â€˜red eyeâ€™ experience.

There are various eye-care companies who do the deed - each one should be looked at separately as the service quality varies with the price. As do the looks of the girls who work there!! [smiley=rolleyes5.gif]

Why am I having it done? 
Try wearing glasses for 40 years and not being able to see in the rain, having to carry a cleaning cloth, taking the things off when looking at close up stuff and not being able to find them afterwards, scratching them when looking through instrument eyepieces, not being able to see the alarm clock when waking up in the morning, having a frame around my world of vision - even down to having them covered in fluids(?) after going to a strip show (todays handy hint - always take an old spare disposable pair!!). There really are 1001 reasons you want to get rid of them if, like me, you have to eat, drink, breath and breed whilst wearing glasses.

On the +ve side; I can get away with minor grinding / machining tasks without putting proper goggles on and the major one - I can see. I just hope Iâ€™ll be able to tomorrow evening.


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## SVStu (Dec 11, 2006)

I've had it done in Leeds if anyone wants a personal recomendation PM me and you may get a discount voucher (if I've still got it)?

Hummed and Arrr'd for a long time before getting it done. 2 basic types Lasik and Lasek, one creates a flap in the eye which they laser thro (back to work within days or even hours) or my op where they scrape away the surface with a solution then you have to wear contacts until its grown back (2 weeks off work and feeling like you have grit under the contacts).

They can only do certain perscriptions and whatever they quote you final decision rests with the surgeon who you will only see when the ops due. They changed mine from flap type to scrape type for same money. Incidentally Â£1600 and they do both eyes at same time, one at a time is for wusses.

They will tell you if you need reading glasses later in life and just as your eye sight deteriorates naturally now it wont stop just because you've had them done, this is why they recommend you wait for your prescription to hover around the same for a couple of years.

I found that I had problems with contacts because I would only wear them infrequently for sport (biking, climbing, skiing etc) and they often came out.

Go for it!!!! I can see 2/3 rows better than 20/20, ideal for spotting those nice white vans parked at side of road :twisted:


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## Dr.Phibes (Mar 10, 2006)

I had it done about 3 years ago. Great at first but I now need to wear glasses nearly all the time again but natural ageing is a factor to this. Also, I'm long sighted and the results are nowhere near as good as they are for short sighted people.

I had mine done privately at Moorfield Eye Hospital London. I wouldn't contemplate having it done anywhere else but then thats me.


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## p1tse (Sep 20, 2004)

Guy: good luck to you

Dr.Phibes: good for going for it, but this is proof that eyes deteriorate again


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## Guy (May 13, 2002)

Had it done yesterday lunch time and the eyes themselves are fine. I can see clearer now than at any time I can remember (including whilst wearing glasses). Colours are brighter and pictures are far sharper than before. The surgeon was a bit of a bore as I wanted to know what he was doing to me and his distraction method was getting me to talk about my work and not his. 
There are prickles in the inner corners of each eye, where I presume he placed the speculum rather coarsely.
The current downside is that I canâ€™t see close up whereas before I could and typing this is a real pain â€˜cause my touch typing was never up to much. Iâ€™ll see (ha-ha) what things are like after Iâ€™ve got some reading glasses.
When I woke up I could see what time it was without putting glasses on - (4:14am) - it was worth it.


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## p1tse (Sep 20, 2004)

excellent stuff guy. talk me through the whole process and what degree short sighted you were?

i heard you are meant to wear goggles for a few days, to keep dirt and anything away from the eyes.

so they numb the eye area, cut it open, laser it and then that's it?

i heard about having to have reading glasses, but is this the case for all?


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## Wondermikie (Apr 14, 2006)

Guy said:


> Had it done yesterday lunch time.....


 [smiley=thumbsup.gif] hope everything went OK and continues to do so, keep us updated how it feels.


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## Guy (May 13, 2002)

To go through the process. Have your eyes checked â€" dependant on who you go with there are different processes. The cheaper ones look, scan and the computer says Yes (or no). The dearer - and more thorough ones - will do a lot more looking, give you a print out of the pre-profiled surface of the lens, free coffee and have very nice young ladies. 
Do not believe the Â£395 adverts! Srick another 1 in front of the 395 and the answer is not 495!
Choose your fee level â€" the dearest for me was Â£3225 for both eyes, the cheapest was Â£950. From the explanatory leaflets the machines used are about the same but the service and quality of care are different. Garages and Restaurants come to mind â€" there are some places I donâ€™t take my car and some places I donâ€™t eat. The trick is to find them before you use them! NO recommendations or comments about who to use because each company will have its own standards and you may find the cheapest is best in your area.
You get there to have them done - you are given a hair net. Now if you see a hair on the top of my head let me know, it will go down as the last one alive!
Lie down on a bench / bed with lots of gubbins on hinged pillars and pull down bits for people to play with.
Shut your eyes, have them disinfectant swabbed, one eye covered over with gauze, the other gets swilled out with gallons of many and varied varieties of drops. Your eyelids are taped back then clipped open. (I thought is was a speculum that was used but it isnâ€™t), just clamps. You canâ€™t blink and it doesnâ€™t matter that much if you try, but it can cause discomfort later â€" so donâ€™t try.
All I could really see was a little green light with a red haze around it. The man said, â€œFix your gaze on that.â€ so I did. An out of focus cream coloured ring was lowered onto / over (?) my eye and I was told there may be a feeling of pressure and things will go dark. Correct, I presume this was the flap at the front of my eye being cut open because when the light came back I had the feeling a lump was being slid / folded back. â€œKeep as still as you can, we are going to do it now.â€ There was a series of buzzing / clicking sounds and the smell of freshly roasted meat permeated my nostrils for around three breaths. During my checkup today I mentioned this and the optician replied, â€œOh you smelt it then?â€ â€œChargrilled lens?â€ I queried. â€œWell, nobody has quite put it like that before,â€ she said, â€œbut yes, youâ€™re right.â€
Back to the opâ€¦. A few syringes full of fluids dashed over my eyes (It was a man who did it and you know what men are like at barbies - you have to put the flames out somehow!) After that, the flap was replaced, more buckets of fluid in my eyes, clamps removed and I was asked to blink a couple of times, then a check to see if the flap had reseated in the right place and I was asked to close that eye whilst it was covered over so they could do the other one. 
It probably took as long to do as it has taken me to type this. (In Word at 24pt so I can see what Iâ€™ve written!)
Clear plastic shields were taped over both eyes (the bug eyed look popular in many sci-fi films) and I was asked to go and wait in reception. Around 35mins later I was called in to see if everything was OK â€" it was. 
The eyelid clamps caused a little annoyance afterwards with minor swelling and I am still have blurred vision at close quarters. This was predicted and accepted. It is better today than yesterday and better now, at 11pm than when I got up at 4.15 this morning.
2 lots of eye drops, an antibiotic and a steroid, one drop every two hours from each reducing to 1 drop 4 time per day tomorrow. Wear the sun glasses at all times outside for the next week and the shields when going to bed. Donâ€™t do anything heavily physical or violent, donâ€™t let your eyes dry out (no problem) and what is a real bummer â€" donâ€™t rub your eyes, donâ€™t shower with them open, donâ€™t smoke / go to smoky places etc. The flap has to heal, not just sit back in place.

Downsides. I canâ€™t see under a couple of metres. Everything is far too blurry. If I use a magnifying glass it is great, things are clear with sharp edges so Iâ€™m not too bothered, they will settle down in time. Iâ€™m told 3-4 months before maximum benefits are realised. Yes, MONTHS, not days. 
Reading glasses? For me, yes. For others I canâ€™t say. Eyes are individual items and one shot doesnâ€™t suit all.
I have a couple of 20 odd page documents to present in the middle of next week so I had better be able to read normal sized print by then! At a meeting this morning, out of sheer habit I had a couple of pages printed up for the items I was referring to and it was only when I picked one up to verify the figures I was using I remembered what a waste of time that was!! However, it may give an indication as to just how much residual annoyance there is â€" virtually non. 
What was wrong with my eyes before? I couldnâ€™t see without glasses beyond around 9 ins from my nose. Below that I could see quite clearly. I canâ€™t do that now. I wasnâ€™t joking when I said that I had to put glasses on before I could see the alarm clock at the side of my bed and even when diving and swimming I had to wear them. Yes, I also have a pair of goggles to my prescription and used to wear those but you feel prize tart sat at the bar in the pool wearing them. They are now redundant, as are my specs â€" ebay here we come!
Hevâ€™s advise is not to have it done. I could be very cynical and say, â€˜She would say that wouldnâ€™t she? Sheâ€™ll loose the sale of a pair of specs.â€™ But I do not believe for 1 second she would lower herself to those levels. Long term effects are not known but there are a few years worth of other peoples problems ahead of any I may have and, lets face it, as far as I am concerned, if I last another 25 â€" 30 years it will be a bit of a minor miracle.


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## Godzilla (Feb 20, 2007)

This thread has really got me interested in getting it done, my eyes are both about -3. I had thought about it before but so far have been too much of a wus to get it done . Starting to think about plucking up the courage again now.


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## Guy (May 13, 2002)

Woke up this morning with no problems. Read teletex news whilst lying in bed without glasses (and eating breakfast) . I still canâ€™t read newspapers or read reports so work is completely out and deadlines are approaching. Theyâ€™ve said that computer / television use is discouraged but the reason that was offered was there is more chance of your eyes drying out rather than any sort of strain issue. That hasnâ€™t happened and I havenâ€™t had to use the saline solution drops theyâ€™ve supplied. However, texting is out as it stands. The lack of input is getting to me <smile> One thing I didnâ€™t realise was going to happen is the interference patterns with my sunglasses and the flat computer screen (Samsung SyncMaster). Tilt my head to the right and the screen goes black!
I can see to DSA standards â€" number plate at 20.5m (Iâ€™ve been testing myself at 25m) so Iâ€™m going to be driving again
I can easily read the computer screen at 1.6m (26pt) with my right eye but it is a little blurred with my left. The closer I get the worse it becomes. That means a toddle down to Boots to try a couple of pairs of reading glasses. As there is an eye imbalance it might mean buying 2 pairs with different strengths and swapping lenses around..

5pm edit.
I couldn't go on with not being able to read or write so I went to Boots for some reading specs - knowing that my eyes are still changing as they heal but I do feel a strong need to see. Whatever glasses I get now will be throw aways in a couple of weeks time. Boots - Â£18.50. Went to ASDA - Â£5.00. Perhaps I should have gone to the Pound shop!

My eyes work again. No pain but still taking the drops.

Listen to Hev - she is the expert. I'm only one user with what promises to be a happy ending. Others may not have such luck.     [smiley=dizzy2.gif]


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## p1tse (Sep 20, 2004)

again good to hear the improvements are being made.

but healing takes that long?

how long do you think you'll be on the drops for?

also what's with the antibiotic and a steroid and for how long?

it would be nice to see without glasses


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## Guy (May 13, 2002)

> but healing takes that long?


Surprised me a little, I was expecting to be fully functional by Monday !!! As a gof it must be expected healing will take longer but, 3-4 months for full benefits to be gained?! Nothing I can do about it now. <smile> I suppose it is reasonable considering human repair processes â€" if you consider a tendon (tennis elbow for example) â€" you can be talking about 9 â€" 12 months for a full repair. It wasnâ€™t too many years ago a flap such as the one that was made used to be stitched â€" yes stitched - back into place.
When I was at school; our woodwork teacher was an early candidate for having a retina â€˜spot weldedâ€™ back into place by laser. He was off for 6 months and when he came back he wasnâ€™t allowed to move his eyes from looking straight ahead for a further 12 months. He used to turn and lean from the waist to ensure he wasnâ€™t moving his eyeballs. Iâ€™m now back working, using a computer after 50 â€" 60 hours and am wholly pain free. Heck, I have no reason to whinge. <smile>



> how long do you think you'll be on the drops for?


1 week



> also what's with the antibiotic and a steroid and for how long?


EXOCIN (Ofloxacin) 3% is the antibiotic. 
FML (Fluorometholone drops) 0.1% , is the anti-inflammatory corticosteroid.

Both seem reasonable things to take as precautionary measures as inflammation can gain ground very rapidly in the eyes. Iâ€™m happy to have the drops rather than running the risks of inflammation.


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## Hev (Feb 26, 2005)

Guy said:


> One thing I didnâ€™t realise was going to happen is the interference patterns with my sunglasses and the flat computer screen (Samsung SyncMaster). Tilt my head to the right and the screen goes black!


Sounds like your sunglasses are polarised (nowt to do with the op :wink - in the past you've never worn sunnies on the computer 8)

I'm glad you are pleased with the outcome tho........................ ps. Boots are not the cheapest for ready-readers! :wink:. It doesn't matter that your eyes have an imbalance, the difference between your distance prescription and reading prescription is usually the same in both eyes:
Distance prescription:
R: -1.50
L: -2.00
Near Prescription:
R:+0.50
L: Plano (or 0)
Reading Add: +2.00 right and left

When trying out ready-readers, don't be tempted to go for the strongest prescription (typically +3.50). Start of with the weakest strength (+1.00) and work up until you get the strength that allows you to see the smallest text. If you pick a power that is too strong, you will give yourself eye-strain.

Hev x


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## Guy (May 13, 2002)

Many thanks Hev. Knowledgeable advise is always much appreciated.

You're right with the sunglasses - it's just that I'd never used them with the computer screen before. ....

For the 'readers' I went to the strongest then thought along similar lines. Using my right eye, tried lesser numbers till it went blurry at +1.5
Repeated with my left eye till it went blurry at +2
Settled for a pair at +2.5. I don't expect to be using them for more than a couple of days, they were bought to be disposable after that sort of period. (I've kept the receipt and packaging so perhaps they'll just get exchanged!)
This must be a time of fairly rapid change and they are simply a means to an end at this stage.


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