# Extraordinary General Meeting



## davelincs

A call for an EGM

The TTOC is in crisis with the committee split between those who want to remain close to the TT Forum and those who want to separate and move towards running their own public TTOC forum. We do not believe a separate forum will be a success and its pursuit will ultimately damage the TT community.

We are calling for an EGM now rather than wait for an AGM on 29th June 2013. An AGM will not bring about happy families. Members should realise the need for urgency and the consequences of waiting for an AGM, which is explained here:

All the TT Forum (TTF) advertisers introduced by the club need their contract renewing imminently (well before the AGM) and if this is not done Tyre Forums will be forced to approach the sponsors directly and bypass the club, so no commission will be earned for the club from our revenue share agreement. There seems to be no enthusiasm from the Chairman for any marketing to be done by the TTOC for the TT Forum, with the apparent intention to render the advertising revenue share deal with TT Forum ineffective. He has previously stated he would rather pursue advertising for a TTOC public forum.

We believe this is what the Chairman wants because he can then claim that there is no reason to be connected to the TTF with administration and moderation (for which the revenue share deal is payment) which is why he has proposed their withdrawal. If Tyre Forums bypass the TTOC and form direct links with the sponsors, the club will be unlikely to receive any revenue share in future. By inaction he will have achieved separation of a very important tie between TTOC and TTF.

The current committee, or rather Chairman and the other committee members he can rely on to vote with him, are holding out for the AGM and are hoping that by then things will have calmed down, they will have organised the EvenTT13 and possibly even produced their own version of the magazine and be able to claim - 'We've produced stability without the Editor we removed who opposes our views - EvenTT13 wasn't as good due to the disruption but give us a chance and we will improve.' They hope the Editor won't get voted back onto the committee, they hope they will and can then continue unopposed.

The Editor may of course get voted back on by the membership but would he want to continue under that regime and continue the struggle to resist separation from TTF that has been going on since 2010? The Vice Chair has said she will resign and so will the Event secretary and Rep secretary, leaving only the Chairman and his entourage. This will then be a "fait accompli".

What will likely happen then is a gradual distancing of the TTOC from the TTF, despite the Rep secretary's constitutional reforms and voting democracy, as they can interpret "major" changes that should be put to the membership, as "minor" day to day changes not needing member consultation. The Chairman and Membership secretary will get what they want by stealth and due to a lack of opposing voices and scrutiny. Waiting for an AGM will be like sleepwalking into a predictable but undesirable outcome.

We need a new Chairman to take over now; who is willing to be neutral and doesn't twist the constitution and reinterpret rules as he goes along in a dictatorial fashion, who is willing to work in partnership with TTF and unify, rather than factionalise, the committee. We are calling for 25 members willing to back the call for an EGM and force an election. Existing committee members will be welcome to apply for their existing roles along with any other member willing to apply - there need be no loss of key skills.

With a new Chairman things would turn around. The existing Chairman could even be retained for his knowledge of the TTOC website in an advisory roll if people are worried about that too and would be able to apply for the role as Chairman again in future.

We would like to propose Mike (Skipton01) for Chairman. As a former elected member of Tameside Metropolitan Borough Council, we believe he has the skills to bring people together and get them talking constructively. He has previously been the Chair of sporting clubs and is the co-owner and the Technical Director of A2OC which is second only to the TTOC in terms of success with ADI awards for a single model car club. He is ideally qualified to provide unification of the committee and bring about civilised behaviour and equitable stewardship of our club within a democratic framework. His own suggestion is that the Chairman's role be constitutionally limited to two years to avoid the problems we have seen. 
25 members supporting the call for an EGM would force the committee to enact this process. The on line voting system is apparently ready so there is no need to wait for an AGM to get this underway. In parallel with this we would be able to renew the TTF advertising, produce a magazine, and organise EvenTT13 with greater effect and by the AGM have a sound basis for a unified committee and safe stewardship of the club.

Please inform the committee by email ( [email protected] ) of your support for an EGM stating your name and membership number and quoting the motions in your email. Please also CC the email to [email protected] for independent verification.

Motions:

"We, the membership calling for an EGM, would like to table the following proposals for consideration at that EGM:- That all recent changes implemented by 'the committee', including those outlined in the forward of the last club magazine and also the enforced removal of the magazine editor, should be reversed without delay. Also, that submissions are invited from members who are interested in standing for any committee position. These submissions will be put to the membership with the aim of electing a new committee (present committee members may stand for their current position) in a fair and democratic manner."

"That the club should concentrate its efforts to maximise the effective use and support of the TT Forum for mutual benefit of TTOC and TTF and not develop a TTOC 'forum' to rival the functions best served by the established TT Forum, in the interest of all members"


----------



## AfterHouR

e-mails sent..... but bounced as says [email protected] doesn't exist


----------



## Wallsendmag

Can we please remember these facts

The TTOC is not and has never said we want to move away from the TT Forum 
The revenue share with sponsors only applies to new business that the TTOC brings to the forum so renewals are irrelevant


----------



## rustyintegrale

Emails sent.

*EDIT* Emails to [email protected] are being bounced. :roll:


----------



## Wallsendmag

rustyintegrale said:


> Emails sent.
> 
> *EDIT* Emails to [email protected] are being bounced. :roll:


They are arriving ok here


----------



## rustyintegrale

Wallsendmag said:


> rustyintegrale said:
> 
> 
> 
> Emails sent.
> 
> *EDIT* Emails to [email protected] are being bounced. :roll:
> 
> 
> 
> They are arriving ok here
Click to expand...

Well I think it safer to assume not for the time being... :wink:

*This message was created automatically by mail delivery software.

A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its
recipients. This is a permanent error. The following address(es) failed:

[email protected]
(ultimately generated from [email protected])
No such person at this address"

------ This is a copy of the message, including all the headers. ------*


----------



## Wallsendmag

Sorry to have to do this but enough is enough. You have had ample opportunity to correct the wrongs and plenty of warning that this would happen otherwise.

Does that convince you they are arriving ?


----------



## phope

That will be an issue with Mark
Davies particular email address... I can see a couple of emails arriving

One minor observation... You do know what the E stands for in EGM yeah?


----------



## rustyintegrale

phope said:


> That will be an issue with Mark
> Davies particular email address... I can see a couple of emails arriving
> 
> One minor observation... You do know what the E stands for in EGM yeah?


A request for a speedy correction has been made. I'm sure Mr Lincs will be along shortly to hit the keys in the correct order. :lol:


----------



## rustyintegrale

Wallsendmag said:


> Sorry to have to do this but enough is enough. You have had ample opportunity to correct the wrongs and plenty of warning that this would happen otherwise.
> 
> Does that convince you they are arriving ?


It does Andrew, thank you.


----------



## AfterHouR

Mine was bounced too...

This message was created automatically by mail delivery software.

A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its recipients. This is a permanent error. The following address(es) failed:

[email protected]
(ultimately generated from [email protected])
No such person at this address"


----------



## TTchan

Just sent mine...


----------



## phope

That's an issue with Mark Davies and his rep.secretary address


----------



## paulc1

Last time I checked there are between 800 - 850 paying members in the TTOC who are eligible to vote and as it stands the only option they have is to vote for change at the top , for this to be democratic we should have the chance to vote maybe for things to stay as they are until the AGM in July 
You might actually find that there is a large percentage out there that don't want change and are happy for things to stay as they are or some who don't care and some like myself who feel we should give the current committee the chance to see what they can do between now and July , but at least think they should be given the chance to show what they can do 
So I want from whoever is organising this "night of the long knives" for them to give myself and others the option to vote for the EGM to be postponed until July and if not maybe i should consider doing some underhand snidey emailing to get votes to get my way


----------



## V6RUL

The TTOC could run a poll on the TTOC forum which would only allow TTOC members to vote on..
1. EGM
2. Wait till AGM

So that would be 800 850 members voting in a controlled and secure environment..is that true or not?
Steve


----------



## paulc1

V6RUL said:


> The TTOC could run a poll on the TTOC forum which would only allow TTOC members to vote on..
> 1. EGM
> 2. Wait till AGM
> 
> So that would be 800 850 members voting in a controlled and secure environment..is that true or not?
> Steve


I would be happy with that and then it means its not one sided as it is at the moment 
Democracy rules


----------



## jamman

Democracy rules ?

When it suits......

I hope this mess can be sorted out without too much back stabbing and pettiness


----------



## V6RUL

jamman said:


> paulc1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Democracy rules
> 
> 
> 
> When it suits.
Click to expand...

Trust first and invest in hope.
Steve


----------



## paulc1

jamman said:


> paulc1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Democracy rules
> 
> 
> 
> When it suits.
Click to expand...

I thought 5 against 4 was democracy 
The greater number wins


----------



## V6RUL

paulc1 said:


> jamman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> paulc1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Democracy rules
> 
> 
> 
> When it suits.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I thought 5 against 4 was democracy
> The greater number wins
Click to expand...

As long as its fairly managed.
Steve


----------



## jamman

V6RUL said:


> As long as its fairly managed.
> Steve


Spot on Steve


----------



## Gazzer

Wallsendmag said:


> Sorry to have to do this but enough is enough. You have had ample opportunity to correct the wrongs and plenty of warning that this would happen otherwise.
> 
> Does that convince you they are arriving ?


Is that part of a confidential e-mail you have copied and pasted from a member Andrew?


----------



## paulc1

jamman said:


> V6RUL said:
> 
> 
> 
> As long as its fairly managed.
> Steve
> 
> 
> 
> Spot on Steve
Click to expand...

I'm happy for it to be fairly managed and I want my vote in this


----------



## V6RUL

paulc1 said:


> jamman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> V6RUL said:
> 
> 
> 
> As long as its fairly managed.
> Steve
> 
> 
> 
> Spot on Steve
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm happy for it to be fairly managed and I want my vote in this
Click to expand...

It's our duty / right as members to vote for what is best.
Steve


----------



## jamman

Gazzer said:


> Wallsendmag said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry to have to do this but enough is enough. You have had ample opportunity to correct the wrongs and plenty of warning that this would happen otherwise.
> 
> Does that convince you they are arriving ?
> 
> 
> 
> Is that part of a confidential e-mail you have copied and pasted from a member Andrew?
Click to expand...

Gaz mate Andrew was just making the point he had received the email no harm done at all.


----------



## Gazzer

jamman said:


> Gazzer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wallsendmag said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry to have to do this but enough is enough. You have had ample opportunity to correct the wrongs and plenty of warning that this would happen otherwise.
> 
> Does that convince you they are arriving ?
> 
> 
> 
> Is that part of a confidential e-mail you have copied and pasted from a member Andrew?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Gaz mate Andrew was just making the point he had received the email no harm done at all.
Click to expand...

I know James, no names shown or any real info passed on......could have been done via pm as proof though bud. Night all off to bed, as long drive in morning


----------



## AfterHouR

> "night of the long knives"


Really, I mean Really....... we could have done without that connotation...

unless you are referring to the song by AC/DC....

Who your leader who your man
Who will help you fill your hand
Who's your friend and who's your foe
Who's your Judas you don't know


----------



## Mark Davies

If 25 people ask for an EGM then that is of course their right and in such a circumstance one will of course be organised for them.

For it to have any point though there needs to be a meaningful voting system and work to get that up and running is still underway. The plans are to utilise the TTOC forum and for voting to take place as an online poll. The system has been put together and has been tested and appears to work but we still need to get every TTOC member signed up to the forum with an account to ensure everyone entitled to vote can do so. That will take a little time. In reality a call for the EGM is only likely to bring matters forward a few weeks, and I'm not convinced that there's that much urgency - but the choice is yours.

As any intentions to split the the TTOC and TTF are pure conjecture and disputed I guess the only purpose of the EGM seems to be to reinstate John and vote in a new chairman. I've not met Mike, the proposed new chiarman. In fact I'd be interested to know if anybody has. We've been told his credentials in terms of involvement with other organisations but I'd like to know what his involvement with the TTOC is? As far as I'm aware he's not been involved in organising anything in the club before, but obviously I could be mistaken on that. He's not a local rep, but does he do something locally within the club?

Mike, perhaps you could post something about your involvement in the club - because it seems the primary purpose of an EGM would be to vote you in, so before people decide whether to call for an EGM they could have some idea whether there'd be any point. Are you someone the membership are likely to want to vote for or are we going to be asking them to parachute a complete stranger straight into the leadership of the Club?


----------



## Hev

davelincs said:


> The TTOC is in crisis with the committee split between those who want to remain close to the TT Forum and those who want to separate and move towards running their own public TTOC forum. We do not believe a separate forum will be a success and its pursuit will ultimately damage the TT community.


The membership has been told on numerous times by the committee that the TTOC does not want to move away from the TTF so why is there this insistence that they do? The only person who appeared to misread the suggestion of removing the TTOC banner at the top of the TTF was John-H....and now he appears to have brainwashed certain individuals to misinterpreting the proposal. 




davelincs said:


> We are calling for an EGM now rather than wait for an AGM on 29th June 2013. An AGM will not bring about happy families. Members should realise the need for urgency and the consequences of waiting for an AGM, which is explained here:


Who is 'we'??? You are putting forward a motion and it is clear from your wording that you are the spokesman for a number of people. So with transparency and honesty in mind, who exactly are you representing? I personally feel that reading between the lines, the 'we' you talk of are aiming to replace the existing committee by trying to force an EGM. 



davelincs said:


> All the TT Forum (TTF) advertisers introduced by the club need their contract renewing imminently (well before the AGM) and if this is not done Tyre Forums will be forced to approach the sponsors directly and bypass the club, so no commission will be earned for the club from our revenue share agreement. There seems to be no enthusiasm from the Chairman for any marketing to be done by the TTOC for the TT Forum, with the apparent intention to render the advertising revenue share deal with TT Forum ineffective. He has previously stated he would rather pursue advertising for a TTOC public forum.


How do you know this information?? As you are not part of the existing committee, you cannot possible know any of this. You state that there seems to be no enthusiasm from the Chairman but unless you have mind reading abilities, I cannot fathom where you are getting your information from.



davelincs said:


> The current committee, or rather Chairman and the other committee members he can rely on to vote with him, are holding out for the AGM and are hoping that by then things will have calmed down, they will have organised the EvenTT13 and possibly even produced their own version of the magazine and be able to claim - 'We've produced stability without the Editor we removed who opposes our views - EvenTT13 wasn't as good due to the disruption but give us a chance and we will improve.' They hope the Editor won't get voted back onto the committee, they hope they will and can then continue unopposed.


And what is wrong with letting them try? For goodness sake, it is only a few months away. Look at it this way, do you seriously think that if an entirely new committee was voted on that they would manage to pull off getting a magazine out and take over the EvenTT13 organising in a short space of time? From a practical point of view, that could be interesting.....imagine the scenario....existing committee out, new committee in...surely the bank account would be frozen whilst new signatories etc are obtained, new cards issued, new authorisations given....who is gonna pay all the bills meantime??? We all know that this would all take time but with money undoubtedly needing to be paid out to suppliers for shop purchases, EvenTT13, magazine expenses, who is going to fund that meantime?? 



davelincs said:


> What will likely happen then is a gradual distancing of the TTOC from the TTF, despite the Rep secretary's constitutional reforms and voting democracy, as they can interpret "major" changes that should be put to the membership, as "minor" day to day changes not needing member consultation. The Chairman and Membership secretary will get what they want by stealth and due to a lack of opposing voices and scrutiny. Waiting for an AGM will be like sleepwalking into a predictable but undesirable outcome.


Again your future prediction skills are astounding! 



davelincs said:


> We need a new Chairman to take over now; who is willing to be neutral and doesn't twist the constitution and reinterpret rules as he goes along in a dictatorial fashion, who is willing to work in partnership with TTF and unify, rather than factionalise, the committee. We are calling for 25 members willing to back the call for an EGM and force an election. Existing committee members will be welcome to apply for their existing roles along with any other member willing to apply - there need be no loss of key skills.


I know first hand that Nick is NOT twisting and reinterpreting things as he goes along. I have heard some of the SKYPE calls (and previously been on calls as a committee member) and I am astounded that you can actually accuse Nick of things he is certainly not. The committee try to work together and it is just unfortunate that as Chairman, Nick is the 'voice' of the committee - giving the perception that it is all his doing! 



davelincs said:


> With a new Chairman things would turn around. The existing Chairman could even be retained for his knowledge of the TTOC website in an advisory roll if people are worried about that too and would be able to apply for the role as Chairman again in future.


If I was Nick, I'd tell you all to get stuffed and you would loose his wealth of knowledge.




davelincs said:


> We would like to propose Mike (Skipton01) for Chairman. As a former elected member of Tameside Metropolitan Borough Council, we believe he has the skills to bring people together and get them talking constructively. He has previously been the Chair of sporting clubs and is the co-owner and the Technical Director of A2OC which is second only to the TTOC in terms of success with ADI awards for a single model car club. He is ideally qualified to provide unification of the committee and bring about civilised behaviour and equitable stewardship of our club within a democratic framework. His own suggestion is that the Chairman's role be constitutionally limited to two years to avoid the problems we have seen.


I don't know anything about him apart from what you have just stated, so no......I would rather Nick continued. As for civilised behaviour, I wonder he would react to an Editor shouting insults at the Secretary during a meeting??!! (I personally heard that particular comment and believe me I was shocked).



davelincs said:


> 25 members supporting the call for an EGM would force the committee to enact this process. The on line voting system is apparently ready so there is no need to wait for an AGM to get this underway. In parallel with this we would be able to renew the TTF advertising, produce a magazine, and organise EvenTT13 with greater effect and by the AGM have a sound basis for a unified committee and safe stewardship of the club.


My goodness, this new committee are going to be busy! Can you show evidence that the advertising is not already being addressed? Evidence that EvenTT13 is not being organised? Evidence a magazine is not being produced?? I only have your word for it

I would also support a vote for whether this riddiculous suggestion of an EGM should happen. Two options, hold an EGM or wait until the AGM. Simple. I do not want a band of 25 people claiming to represent me when I do not believe in their actions. I am quite sure that certain members can encourage 25 members to submit...especially since the member needs only to copy and paste (they don't need to read it!).

One minute you are accusing the committee of being heavy handed and yet you are using bully boy tactics - this is disgusting!

Hev x

_*** as a point of note: I am the wife of Phope (the treasurer). By default, I end up hearing the SKYPE conversations because we live in the same house. Although I will say hello at the beginning of the conversation, I do not have any input and would never repeat anything that is said. What is said is confidential. I have been in the fortunate/unfortunate position to hear first hand what has been said on these calls and I can assure you that committee are doing a great job of getting things done just now ***
_


----------



## rustyintegrale

Mark Davies said:


> As any intentions to split the the TTOC and TTF are pure conjecture and disputed I guess the only purpose of the EGM seems to be to reinstate John and vote in a new chairman.


I don't think that is quite the purpose at all Mark. This has come about because John has been expelled from the committee by the committee. There is some doubt over the legality of the proceedings used to do that and despite protestations from both sides it is difficult to determine the actual truth.

Nobody is looking to vote in a new chairman. The EGM is called to allow the membership to decide themselves who they believe, and who they now think can work together for the benefit of the Club. Both Nick and John agree that they have irreparable differences so one has to go and a democratic vote by the whole membership is the only way to decide who.

It could well be that Nick is elected to stay and if that happens then the membership has determined the result. At that point we all shut up and move on - including John and his supporters - leaving those with the members' confidence and support to get on with the roles they've been elected to execute.

If anything this will put a meaningful stop to all the bickering rather than just sweep it under the carpet which is happening at the moment.


----------



## Mark Davies

Sadly I don't think it is going to put a stop to anything.

If the person nominated as the candidate to contest the chairmanship was someone well known and previously highly involved in the Club I might have a more positive view of things, but it's not. Despite me being involved in the Club for some years and regularly attending meetings and events throughout the country Mike is not only someone I've never met (which on its own wouldn't necessarily concern me), he's someone I've never even heard of. It strikes me then that the person being put forward is just whoever happens to be prepared to do the job. Now Mike may be a really good bloke for all I know, so it's nothing personal - I'm just concerned that it's not about putting someone better in place, it's just about getting rid of Nick and anyone else will do.

A new chairman isn't going to change anything. I came onto the commitee free from the baggage of what had gone before, completely impartial and having the advantage of knowing all the people involved personally and getting on with them. I couldn't sort it out, so I can't see what hope a complete stranger has got. It's an irretrievable situation because it's no longer about what's best for the Club. If it were then there would have been signs of compromise and an end to the bickering months ago.

This EGM isn't about the best interests of the Club - as in practical terms it isn't going to achieve anything positive and is only going to cause disruption to business - it's about settling an argument between two individuals. While this thread was started by someone else the content is word-for-word something that John showed me over a week ago, so it's a fair assumptiuon who is driving it, though I will accept it would have been knocked up between a number of people. I just think it would have been a little more honest if John had posted it instead of hiding behind someone else.

The committee behaved in a deplorable fashion with unconstitutional actions designed just to get rid of John. It's no better to abuse the constitution and manipulate the membership just so John can get rid of Nick, and that's all that is happening here. There's been enough selfish politics and power games - we don't need more of it.

The truth is there's no business urgency that requires a vote on the committee prior to the AGM - this is just John being worried that by June all the fuss will have settled down and the membership are more likely to settle for the status quo and return the current committee. It's just about striking while the iron is hot so that John is more likely to get his own way. The initial post says as much.

When I opened it I was fully expecting the first post to include the 25 names needed for the EGM. After all, there's been weeks of plotting and organising to get that much support. The fact that it still wasn't in place after this time suggests quite clearly that there isn't a widespread appetite in the Club to force this issue, which makes this just an attempt by a small handful to hijack the Club.

And to clarify one issue - the original post rather disingeniously suggests I will be resigning my post in the event that John is not returned to the committee. That's not true at all. I have made it clear I will not be standing for election either at an AGM or EGM regardless of what happens. I made that commitment so that my input in this crisis can be trusted to be impartial and purely in the interests of the Club, and not based on any personal agenda. There are too many personal agendas involved in this already.


----------



## rustyintegrale

Mark Davies said:


> Sadly I don't think it is going to put a stop to anything.


I don't understand why.

This is not about removing the committee at all if the membership chooses. To not exercise one's vote for an EGM is almost a nod to the committee that it's 'okay' to use dubious methods to expel a fellow committee member for whatever reason they see fit. That cannot be allowed. What methods might they employ to do what next?

I don't know who is telling the truth here. I suspect that there have been a few examples of 'I'm holier than thou' on both sides but it doesn't really matter any more. It's done. The damage is done. What we need now is a positive outcome that draws a line under recent events and it must be the members' final decision. Without the EGM how can they make it? If we wait until the AGM then the whole committee *could* be voted out. But then we don't currently have a full committee anyhow do we?

If it transpires that no changes are to be made then so be it. The current committee members have their vote of confidence and the opposing team must accept the result and move on. End of politics, end of bickering, end of story.

For the record, I don't know who Mike is either, but from reading what he's posted in the Club Discussion thread on the TTOC forum, he seems exactly the level-headed and impartial guy the Club needs to manage the situation right now. That's not to say Nick has done a bad job at all (latter events excepted).

If it were up to me I'd ask Nick to stand down temporarily, allow Mike to go in as caretaker chairman and pull things together. Then the AGM can happen as usual and Nick, John, Mike and anyone else would be free to stand for election with a clean slate. Job done.


----------



## Mark Davies

rustyintegrale said:


> I don't understand why.


Well I've been embroiled in it for a while now and have firmly formed the opinion that regardless of who is the chairman any committee that includes certain individuals is doomed to failure. Those involved have demonstrated a complete resistence to compromise, determined only to win their argument and get their own way regardless of any interests of the Club.

When John approached me with this proposal last week hoping to get my support I made my view clear that it was a pointless exercise unless he was in a position to put forward a complete new committee to contest the election. There is absolutely no point in John getting himself back on the committee alongside the other members because (even though he'll claim different) he's no more willing to work with them than they are to work with him. We're just back to square one. Now it is highly likely that at the AGM all of the same committee will be voted in, because chances are few if any of the posts are going to be contested. It's going to create issues because they probably all still want to be involved, just not with each other. I anticipate some standing just to see who else gets elected and then potentially immediately resigning. That won't get us anywhere but that's democracy for you and we're obliged to have an election at the AGM so it can't be avoided. I see no point in bringing that forward, just to plunge us back into chaos before the EvenTT can be organised.

Rich, I know you're expecting that when the membership tell these people to behave and get on with it then they will - but they won't. The only likely solution is a completely new committee, but volunteers are very hard to come by, so I can't see that happening.


----------



## jamman

Mark Davies said:


> Well I've been embroiled in it for a while now and have firmly formed the opinion that regardless of who is the chairman any committee that includes certain individuals is doomed to failure. Those involved have demonstrated a complete resistence to compromise, determined only to win their argument and get their own way regardless of any interests of the Club.


That doesn't make great reading


----------



## brittan

Mark's appraisal of the situation is sadly accurate.

John alluded to exactly this point in the OP of this thread:


Mark Davies said:


> There is absolutely no point in John getting himself back on the committee alongside the other members because (even though he'll claim different) he's no more willing to work with them than they are to work with him.


where he says, "The Editor may of course get voted back on by the membership but would he want to continue under that regime and continue the struggle to resist separation from TTF that has been going on since 2010?"

I have previously posted that the magazine editor does not necessarily have to have a position on the committee but given what has transpired since it's clear that such an arrangement would be neither acceptable to those involved nor workable.


----------



## Gazzer

Hev said:


> davelincs said:
> 
> 
> 
> The TTOC is in crisis with the committee split between those who want to remain close to the TT Forum and those who want to separate and move towards running their own public TTOC forum. We do not believe a separate forum will be a success and its pursuit will ultimately damage the TT community.
> 
> 
> 
> The membership has been told on numerous times by the committee that the TTOC does not want to move away from the TTF so why is there this insistence that they do? The only person who appeared to misread the suggestion of removing the TTOC banner at the top of the TTF was John-H....and now he appears to have brainwashed certain individuals to misinterpreting the proposal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> davelincs said:
> 
> 
> 
> We are calling for an EGM now rather than wait for an AGM on 29th June 2013. An AGM will not bring about happy families. Members should realise the need for urgency and the consequences of waiting for an AGM, which is explained here:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Who is 'we'??? You are putting forward a motion and it is clear from your wording that you are the spokesman for a number of people. So with transparency and honesty in mind, who exactly are you representing? I personally feel that reading between the lines, the 'we' you talk of are aiming to replace the existing committee by trying to force an EGM.
> 
> 
> 
> davelincs said:
> 
> 
> 
> All the TT Forum (TTF) advertisers introduced by the club need their contract renewing imminently (well before the AGM) and if this is not done Tyre Forums will be forced to approach the sponsors directly and bypass the club, so no commission will be earned for the club from our revenue share agreement. There seems to be no enthusiasm from the Chairman for any marketing to be done by the TTOC for the TT Forum, with the apparent intention to render the advertising revenue share deal with TT Forum ineffective. He has previously stated he would rather pursue advertising for a TTOC public forum.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How do you know this information?? As you are not part of the existing committee, you cannot possible know any of this. You state that there seems to be no enthusiasm from the Chairman but unless you have mind reading abilities, I cannot fathom where you are getting your information from.
> 
> 
> 
> davelincs said:
> 
> 
> 
> The current committee, or rather Chairman and the other committee members he can rely on to vote with him, are holding out for the AGM and are hoping that by then things will have calmed down, they will have organised the EvenTT13 and possibly even produced their own version of the magazine and be able to claim - 'We've produced stability without the Editor we removed who opposes our views - EvenTT13 wasn't as good due to the disruption but give us a chance and we will improve.' They hope the Editor won't get voted back onto the committee, they hope they will and can then continue unopposed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And what is wrong with letting them try? For goodness sake, it is only a few months away. Look at it this way, do you seriously think that if an entirely new committee was voted on that they would manage to pull off getting a magazine out and take over the EvenTT13 organising in a short space of time? From a practical point of view, that could be interesting.....imagine the scenario....existing committee out, new committee in...surely the bank account would be frozen whilst new signatories etc are obtained, new cards issued, new authorisations given....who is gonna pay all the bills meantime??? We all know that this would all take time but with money undoubtedly needing to be paid out to suppliers for shop purchases, EvenTT13, magazine expenses, who is going to fund that meantime??
> 
> 
> 
> davelincs said:
> 
> 
> 
> What will likely happen then is a gradual distancing of the TTOC from the TTF, despite the Rep secretary's constitutional reforms and voting democracy, as they can interpret "major" changes that should be put to the membership, as "minor" day to day changes not needing member consultation. The Chairman and Membership secretary will get what they want by stealth and due to a lack of opposing voices and scrutiny. Waiting for an AGM will be like sleepwalking into a predictable but undesirable outcome.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Again your future prediction skills are astounding!
> 
> 
> 
> davelincs said:
> 
> 
> 
> We need a new Chairman to take over now; who is willing to be neutral and doesn't twist the constitution and reinterpret rules as he goes along in a dictatorial fashion, who is willing to work in partnership with TTF and unify, rather than factionalise, the committee. We are calling for 25 members willing to back the call for an EGM and force an election. Existing committee members will be welcome to apply for their existing roles along with any other member willing to apply - there need be no loss of key skills.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I know first hand that Nick is NOT twisting and reinterpreting things as he goes along. I have heard some of the SKYPE calls (and previously been on calls as a committee member) and I am astounded that you can actually accuse Nick of things he is certainly not. The committee try to work together and it is just unfortunate that as Chairman, Nick is the 'voice' of the committee - giving the perception that it is all his doing!
> 
> 
> 
> davelincs said:
> 
> 
> 
> With a new Chairman things would turn around. The existing Chairman could even be retained for his knowledge of the TTOC website in an advisory roll if people are worried about that too and would be able to apply for the role as Chairman again in future.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If I was Nick, I'd tell you all to get stuffed and you would loose his wealth of knowledge.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> davelincs said:
> 
> 
> 
> We would like to propose Mike (Skipton01) for Chairman. As a former elected member of Tameside Metropolitan Borough Council, we believe he has the skills to bring people together and get them talking constructively. He has previously been the Chair of sporting clubs and is the co-owner and the Technical Director of A2OC which is second only to the TTOC in terms of success with ADI awards for a single model car club. He is ideally qualified to provide unification of the committee and bring about civilised behaviour and equitable stewardship of our club within a democratic framework. His own suggestion is that the Chairman's role be constitutionally limited to two years to avoid the problems we have seen.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't know anything about him apart from what you have just stated, so no......I would rather Nick continued. As for civilised behaviour, I wonder he would react to an Editor shouting insults at the Secretary during a meeting??!! (I personally heard that particular comment and believe me I was shocked).
> 
> 
> 
> davelincs said:
> 
> 
> 
> 25 members supporting the call for an EGM would force the committee to enact this process. The on line voting system is apparently ready so there is no need to wait for an AGM to get this underway. In parallel with this we would be able to renew the TTF advertising, produce a magazine, and organise EvenTT13 with greater effect and by the AGM have a sound basis for a unified committee and safe stewardship of the club.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My goodness, this new committee are going to be busy! Can you show evidence that the advertising is not already being addressed? Evidence that EvenTT13 is not being organised? Evidence a magazine is not being produced?? I only have your word for it
> 
> I would also support a vote for whether this riddiculous suggestion of an EGM should happen. Two options, hold an EGM or wait until the AGM. Simple. I do not want a band of 25 people claiming to represent me when I do not believe in their actions. I am quite sure that certain members can encourage 25 members to submit...especially since the member needs only to copy and paste (they don't need to read it!).
> 
> One minute you are accusing the committee of being heavy handed and yet you are using bully boy tactics - this is disgusting!
> 
> Hev x
> 
> _*** as a point of note: I am the wife of Phope (the treasurer). By default, I end up hearing the SKYPE conversations because we live in the same house. Although I will say hello at the beginning of the conversation, I do not have any input and would never repeat anything that is said. What is said is confidential. I have been in the fortunate/unfortunate position to hear first hand what has been said on these calls and I can assure you that committee are doing a great job of getting things done just now ***
> _
Click to expand...

Hev, i can feel the emotion and underlying anger in your replies above and understand why.....i really do.

Dave as a fully paid up member has the RIGHT to call for an EGM if he believes the committee is dysfunctional in how it carries on (fact)

no BULLY BOY TACTICS......its his democratic right hun :?

heard about the shouting at secretary before...........can you supply a link to a copy of it so we can view for ourselves please?

Nick did twist things hun, by doing an unconstitutional vote to evict a fellow committee member.......(chairmans role is to be neutral) he wasn't was he lol

hemmingway i have sent me mails to the munchers of Dauphinoise potatoes at posh events namely [email protected] and the mad topic starter who is called Davelincs and shall forever after be known as Davelincs.....even if in 2035 he changes his name to shirleylincs!!!!!

PS: dave, move this to the ttoc section on here so members can see it BIG DOG...............


----------



## Hev

Gazzer said:


> Hev, i can feel the emotion and underlying anger in your replies above and understand why.....i really do.


Thank you - it is only a fraction of what I am feeling about this whole mess. I feel incredibly let down by friends I have known for years and to be honest, I am very disappointed by their behaviour.



Gazzer said:


> Dave as a fully paid up member has the RIGHT to call for an EGM if he believes the committee is dysfunctional in how it carries on (fact)


I don't have a problem with that....I just wholeheartedly disagree with him.



Gazzer said:


> no BULLY BOY TACTICS......its his democratic right hun :?


Seriously??!! A major case of tit for tat as far as I can see.



Gazzer said:


> heard about the shouting at secretary before...........can you supply a link to a copy of it so we can view for ourselves please?


Here you go: http://www.ttoc.co.uk/members/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=441
The actual words used for the final comment from John indicated that the Secretary could fit a banana in her mouth sideways.........let us go back to the playground shall we! As far as I know, John has yet to apologise for his outburst. Tell me why I should support someone who shows this much maturity in the running of 'our' club??



Gazzer said:


> Nick did twist things hun, by doing an unconstitutional vote to evict a fellow committee member.......(chairmans role is to be neutral) he wasn't was he lol


The position of Chairman is as a spokesman too. He did NOT "evict" John on his own!



Gazzer said:


> hemmingway i have sent me mails to the munchers of Dauphinoise potatoes at posh events namely [email protected] and the mad topic starter who is called Davelincs and shall forever after be known as Davelincs.....even if in 2035 he changes his name to shirleylincs!!!!!


I can't believe you do not have an inclination on who started this particular discussion. Can I point you to Mark's quote earlier in this thread just for your clarification?


Mark Davies said:


> When John approached me with this proposal last week hoping to get my support I made my view clear that it was a pointless exercise unless he was in a position to put forward a complete new committee to contest the election. There is absolutely no point in John getting himself back on the committee alongside the other members because (even though he'll claim different) he's no more willing to work with them than they are to work with him.


John put this proposal forward and yet did not post it on here himself.....WHY???!

Hev x


----------



## Gazzer

Hev said:


> Gazzer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hev, i can feel the emotion and underlying anger in your replies above and understand why.....i really do.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you - it is only a fraction of what I am feeling about this whole mess. I feel incredibly let down by friends I have known for years and to be honest, I am very disappointed by their behaviour.
> 
> 
> 
> Gazzer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dave as a fully paid up member has the RIGHT to call for an EGM if he believes the committee is dysfunctional in how it carries on (fact)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't have a problem with that....I just wholeheartedly disagree with him.
> 
> 
> 
> Gazzer said:
> 
> 
> 
> no BULLY BOY TACTICS......its his democratic right hun :?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Seriously??!! A major case of tit for tat as far as I can see.
> 
> 
> 
> Gazzer said:
> 
> 
> 
> heard about the shouting at secretary before...........can you supply a link to a copy of it so we can view for ourselves please?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Here you go: http://www.ttoc.co.uk/members/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=441
> The actual words used for the final comment from John indicated that the Secretary could fit a banana in her mouth sideways.........let us go back to the playground shall we! As far as I know, John has yet to apologise for his outburst. Tell me why I should support someone who shows this much maturity in the running of 'our' club??
> 
> 
> 
> Gazzer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nick did twist things hun, by doing an unconstitutional vote to evict a fellow committee member.......(chairmans role is to be neutral) he wasn't was he lol
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The position of Chairman is as a spokesman too. He did NOT "evict" John on his own!
> 
> 
> 
> Gazzer said:
> 
> 
> 
> hemmingway i have sent me mails to the munchers of Dauphinoise potatoes at posh events namely [email protected] and the mad topic starter who is called Davelincs and shall forever after be known as Davelincs.....even if in 2035 he changes his name to shirleylincs!!!!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I can't believe you do not have an inclination on who started this particular discussion. Can I point you to Mark's quote earlier in this thread just for your clarification?
> 
> 
> Mark Davies said:
> 
> 
> 
> When John approached me with this proposal last week hoping to get my support I made my view clear that it was a pointless exercise unless he was in a position to put forward a complete new committee to contest the election. There is absolutely no point in John getting himself back on the committee alongside the other members because (even though he'll claim different) he's no more willing to work with them than they are to work with him.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> John put this proposal forward and yet did not post it on here himself.....WHY???!
> 
> Hev x
Click to expand...

I don't have a problem with that....I just wholeheartedly disagree with him. as is your'e right as a member 100% agree!!!

He did NOT "evict" John on his own!  no he did it in secret with his friends and due to numbers in his favour win? neutral......is his role so should have gone to the members hun am afraid :? 

A major case of tit for tat as far as I can see.  you wear the crown you take the flak when it goes wrong tbh

why is it all about John Hev? all of the committee members acted outside of the clubs constitution when it suited them (except Mark) ............had to put that in quick before he posted 4 pages or roles and rules and regs that were not down to him lol. (joking Mark) you have a committee that cannot work together..........well 4 can on one side and 4 on the other can. now IF and i say IF they just did there own jobs and didn't get involved in trying to impliment their views on others maybe it wouldn't have gone so awry.........who knows hun tbh. end of..........if John gets back in with a vote by the members then he is answerable to show the club how he is working to produce a quality magazine at an affordable price. Peter will know where i am coming from on that statement..........sort it or shift out is my moto hun.

(hows the dogs doing).......atb Gary


----------



## audimad

Not interested in a stranger either as chairman even if he does co own another Audi club.


----------



## peter-ss

I get the impression, from reading through this thread, that some people are confused with the purpose of an EGM.

An EGM isn't about twenty five people forcing their opinions on the rest of the membership, it's about bringing a potential problem to the attention of all club members so that they can make a decision for themselves and put forward their opinion via a democratic vote.

If everything was perfect then the outcome of an EGM now wouldn't be any different to that of an AGM in the future - the existing Committee members would simply be voted back in as usual.

If nobody's done anything wrong then there's nothing to fear about an EGM - It may turn out that John isn't voted back onto the Committee anyway.


----------



## paulc1

audimad said:


> Not interested in a stranger either as chairman even if he does co own another Audi club.


+ 1


----------



## burns

peter-ss said:


> I get the impression, from reading through this thread, that some people are confused with the purpose of an EGM.
> 
> An EGM isn't about twenty five people forcing their opinions on the rest of the membership, it's about bringing a potential problem to the attention of all club members so that they can make a decision for themselves and put forward their opinion via a democratic vote.
> 
> If everything was perfect then the outcome of an EGM now wouldn't be any different to that of an AGM in the future - the existing Committee members would simply be voted back in as usual.
> 
> If nobody's done anything wrong then there's nothing to fear about an EGM - It may turn out that John isn't voted back onto the Committee anyway.


Quite apart from the fact that it will cost the club money to hire a function room, will take valuable time out of people's already busy lives (at a weekend, when they probably want to be relaxing or spending time with friends and family, etc) and will cause an inevitable disruption to both the organising of the EvenTT and the next issue of the magazine, do you think many members are going to go to the expense of travelling to the meeting? It will probably be in the Midlands as that's central, but still rather a long drive for many of us. In truth, only the angriest and/or most well-off members will attend and it won't be a true representation of the desires of the membership.


----------



## peter-ss

I was under the impression that we now have an online voting system in place so that all members can be involved?


----------



## burns

Methinks you overestimate the use of an online voting system, and underestimate the purpose and function of an EGM.


----------



## Mark Davies

No Peter. The voting system isn't ready yet and if there was a call for an EGM today the constitution demands that it be held within 14 days - long before an online system can be put together. So as Sara says it's going to have to be an actual meeting at which hardly anyone will be in attendance. In fact, it could be argued that there needs to be a constitutional change before we could use an online system - which means an AGM first.

So, any EGM is likely to be a complete farce in which only a handful of people turn up (probably not even all 25 people who demanded it) and enforce their minority will on the membership. Not exactly the paragon of democracy that you suggest with 'all club members' making decisions.

The simple fact is people are so intent on forcing their own agenda they're really not thinking this thing through.


----------



## Skipton01

I do not want to get involved in a discussion here - this is TTF and I don't think debates of this nature should be held outside TTOC.

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## Bartsimpsonhead

Skipton01 said:


> I do not want to get involved in a discussion here - this is TTF and I don't think debates of this nature should be held outside TTOC.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Mike


The problem with limiting any discussion to the TTOC site is that not all of the TTOC members bother to log-in and read what's being said/written over there! (I think Nick or someone said somewhere that out of it's 400-odd members roughly 100 TTOC members haven't logged-on to the TTOC site in something like six months). Hardly surprising really, as most of the chat/questions/tech info (from TTOC members and others) gets posted on the TTF.

Unless someone wanted to limit the number of people voting, so a more favourable result (for whatever motion is proposed) comes about, it's better for all members if something is posted on the TTF giving some info of what's going on. (Even if it's just a message saying "*IMPORTANT TTOC ANNOUNCEMENT:* Members, you need to go to www:ttoc.co.uk/vote _(or whatever the page address)_ and vote _(on something)_ *NOW!*"


----------



## Skipton01

Bartsimpsonhead said:


> Skipton01 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I do not want to get involved in a discussion here - this is TTF and I don't think debates of this nature should be held outside TTOC.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> The problem with limiting any discussion to the TTOC site is that not all of the TTOC members bother to log-in and read what's being said/written over there! . . . . .
> 
> . . . it's better for all members if something is posted on the TTF giving some info of what's going on.
Click to expand...

I agree that highlighting the situation for all members is of paramount importance. This thread (amongst others recently on TTF) should have sufficiently highlighted the situation, so there's really no need to air club dirty laundry in public is there?

Is it co-incidence that Paul Harris in his latest forward to AD magazine has broached the worrying situation with some Audi forums? Probably not.


----------



## Nem

Bartsimpsonhead said:


> (I think Nick or someone said somewhere that out of it's 400-odd members roughly 100 TTOC members haven't logged-on to the TTOC site in something like six months).


I think that was regarding on here, the TT Forum there are about 500 people in the TTOG group, but of those over 100 have not logged on in over 6 months.

On the TTOC Members Area we have at thi moment 399 members registered, of wich 100 have not logged on in over 6 months.

The point being that it's not that huge a difference between the valid TTOC members using either site, I know you can see a large number of people online on the TT Forum most times of the day and only a few on the Members Area, but people are using the Members Area.


----------



## Gazzer

Nem said:


> Bartsimpsonhead said:
> 
> 
> 
> (I think Nick or someone said somewhere that out of it's 400-odd members roughly 100 TTOC members haven't logged-on to the TTOC site in something like six months).
> 
> 
> 
> I think that was regarding on here, the TT Forum there are about 500 people in the TTOG group, but of those over 100 have not logged on in over 6 months.
> 
> On the TTOC Members Area we have at thi moment 399 members registered, of wich 100 have not logged on in over 6 months.
> 
> The point being that it's not that huge a difference between the valid TTOC members using either site, I know you can see a large number of people online on the TT Forum most times of the day and only a few on the Members Area, but people are using the Members Area.
Click to expand...

a few are Nick, but i suspect many just login.........see it is quiet with no one around and logg off again. i suspect it has had increased footfall recently over the committee issues. so this area does require information from the TTOC forum to keep members that won't or don't want to use another forum informed.


----------



## mighTy Tee

Anyone would think this is a major corporate not some minority motor enthusiast's club. Sure there are conflicts of personality and everyone involved seems to have made errors of judgement and as a result there seems to be a determination to press the red self destruct button.

However the TTOC is not about a handful of personalities, it is about our cars. it is about bringing together like minded people and making friends.

I work daily with the bullshit of West Africa politics, seen civil wars waged by the minority destroy years of hard work by the majority.

This club is acting just like West Africa, the minority is intent on destroying everything the majority have built up.

In a few months I will have been a member for 10 years, it is my club, it is our club, both Nick and John have been assets to my (our) club, we do not need an EGM, we need stability we need committed members (as committee members, as regional reps and as general members) who are in for the long haul (not the here today gone tomorrow types) and we need to move this club forward with revised democratic rules.

Please, let common sense prevail, lets have a lively (but friendly) AGM in June from which hopefully the club can thrive.


----------



## Bartsimpsonhead

Nem said:


> Bartsimpsonhead said:
> 
> 
> 
> (I think Nick or someone said somewhere that out of it's 400-odd members roughly 100 TTOC members haven't logged-on to the TTOC site in something like six months).
> 
> 
> 
> On the TTOC Members Area we have at thi moment 399 members registered, of wich 100 have not logged on in over 6 months.
Click to expand...

Yes - 399/400 members, of which 100 haven't logged-on to the TTOC site in the last six months. Exactly what I said you'd said.

So some sort of message regarding any sort of vote on the TTOC site should be posted on the TTF so those not using the TTOC site are aware they need to log-on to the TTOC site and vote (if they can be bothered.)

And not just a notification in the TTOC section of the TTF - I'd say a notification in the Mk1, Mk2, Events sections, et all, so that all TTOC members get to see it. After all, they'll be some that probably don't bother reading the TTOC section on the TTF either!


----------



## Gazzer

Bartsimpsonhead said:


> Nem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bartsimpsonhead said:
> 
> 
> 
> (I think Nick or someone said somewhere that out of it's 400-odd members roughly 100 TTOC members haven't logged-on to the TTOC site in something like six months).
> 
> 
> 
> On the TTOC Members Area we have at thi moment 399 members registered, of wich 100 have not logged on in over 6 months.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes - 399/400 members, of which 100 haven't logged-on to the TTOC site in the last six months. Exactly what I said you'd said.
> 
> So some sort of message regarding any sort of vote on the TTOC site should be posted on the TTF so those not using the TTOC site are aware they need to log-on to the TTOC site and vote (if they can be bothered.)
> 
> And not just a notification in the TTOC section of the TTF - I'd say a notification in the Mk1, Mk2, Events sections, et all, so that all TTOC members get to see it. After all, they'll be some that probably don't bother reading the TTOC section on the TTF either!
Click to expand...

can't and shouldn't do that as this is the ttf and owned by verticle scope not the ttoc tbh.....that would basically be spamming their forum. in here is the correct place


----------



## Bartsimpsonhead

Gazzer said:


> can't and shouldn't do that as this is the ttf and owned by verticle scope not the ttoc tbh.....that would basically be spamming their forum. in here is the correct place


But if TTOC members don't log-on to the TTOC site, and don't or rarely read the TTOC section of the TTF, then how are they going to know they need to vote? You're excluding members from knowing they need to take action.
Maybe sending out an email to members informing them they need to vote - that would keep it off of the TTF, and you'd be sure everyone got the message.


----------



## Mark Davies

The plan is to e-mail every member to notify them whenever there is a vote coming up. You can't simply rely on people reading a forum - some people simply have no interest in such things.


----------



## Gazzer

Locked on the TTOC forum by the committee.......open on here


----------



## John-H

I apologise for boreing anyone previously with arguments about constitutions and what was said about plans to split from TTF and committee dysfunction etc. I may even have appeared obsessed with worry about the possibility after many sleepless nights since being thrown out from the committee and my judgement may have been clouded by fatigue but the tenacity I've had over this issue has prevented us splitting from TTF previously and tenacity is a necessary quality of an editor to produce a magazine - especially when meeting deadlines and having to fill in with my own articles in order to bring a magazine to completion. That's part of my character I suppose, perhaps from my engineering research background - to keep going until the job's done and answers are found - I don't know.

I am willing to accept that the committee are now unlikely to split from TTF and I accept the EGM proposal is not supported here. It was out of concern for the future that I was motivated enough to speak out but now accept that my concerns may no longer be required. I am willing to give the committee the benefit of the doubt and the chance to prove themselves over the issues of producing a magazine, organising EvenTT13 and renewing advertising contracts for TTF sponsors without my help. I wish you all the best for the future.

Regards,
John-H


----------



## davelincs

Well said John


----------



## rustyintegrale

davelincs said:


> Well said John


+1


----------



## Gazzer

John-H said:


> I apologise for boreing anyone previously with arguments about constitutions and what was said about plans to split from TTF and committee dysfunction etc. I may even have appeared obsessed with worry about the possibility after many sleepless nights since being thrown out from the committee and my judgement may have been clouded by fatigue but the tenacity I've had over this issue has prevented us splitting from TTF previously and tenacity is a necessary quality of an editor to produce a magazine - especially when meeting deadlines and having to fill in with my own articles in order to bring a magazine to completion. That's part of my character I suppose, perhaps from my engineering research background - to keep going until the job's done and answers are found - I don't know.
> 
> I am willing to accept that the committee are now unlikely to split from TTF and I accept the EGM proposal is not supported here. It was out of concern for the future that I was motivated enough to speak out but now accept that my concerns may no longer be required. I am willing to give the committee the benefit of the doubt and the chance to prove themselves over the issues of producing a magazine, organising EvenTT13 and renewing advertising contracts for TTF sponsors without my help. I wish you all the best for the future.
> 
> Regards,
> John-H


John, if I had spent as much time as you in nurturing a project I would be just as eager and frantic to get things back on track m8. Enjoy having a break from deadlines a couple of beers or wines and put your feet up for a change. You could never win any argument on their forum surrounded by their friends in reality.


----------



## les

Gazzer said:


> John-H said:
> 
> 
> 
> I apologise for boreing anyone previously with arguments about constitutions and what was said about plans to split from TTF and committee dysfunction etc. I may even have appeared obsessed with worry about the possibility after many sleepless nights since being thrown out from the committee and my judgement may have been clouded by fatigue but the tenacity I've had over this issue has prevented us splitting from TTF previously and tenacity is a necessary quality of an editor to produce a magazine - especially when meeting deadlines and having to fill in with my own articles in order to bring a magazine to completion. That's part of my character I suppose, perhaps from my engineering research background - to keep going until the job's done and answers are found - I don't know.
> 
> I am willing to accept that the committee are now unlikely to split from TTF and I accept the EGM proposal is not supported here. It was out of concern for the future that I was motivated enough to speak out but now accept that my concerns may no longer be required. I am willing to give the committee the benefit of the doubt and the chance to prove themselves over the issues of producing a magazine, organising EvenTT13 and renewing advertising contracts for TTF sponsors without my help. I wish you all the best for the future.
> 
> Regards,
> John-H
> 
> 
> 
> John, if I had spent as much time as you in nurturing a project I would be just as eager and frantic to get things back on track m8. Enjoy having a break from deadlines a couple of beers or wines and put your feet up for a change. You could never win any argument on their forum surrounded by their friends in reality.
Click to expand...

+1 +1. I hope the present committee is proud of itself for the way they have acted over the expulsion of John and the twisting and turning every which way. But then nothing surprises me anymore as I predicted the TTOC was heading for a fall quite sometime ago. Good luck finding a good editor and others to fill the posts left.


----------



## peter-ss

A good honest post John that I hope will be appreciated.

It'll be interesting to see how things work out over the next few months.


----------



## Bartsimpsonhead

John-H said:


> I am willing to give the committee the benefit of the doubt and the chance to prove themselves over the issues of producing a magazine, organising EvenTT13 and renewing advertising contracts for TTF sponsors without my help. I wish you all the best for the future.
> 
> Regards,
> John-H


Well said.

I've been production designer/manager on magazines in the past and had them taken over by someone else through managerial decisions (through good sales periods and bad) - it's never nice to think your 'ship' is being steered by anothers hand, and it's sad to sometimes see a mag fail at that persons hand, but it's also satisfying to know those in charge f*cked up by taking you off it in the first place.
Wash your hands, walk away, and wait and see... :twisted:


----------



## A3DFU

A courageous post John! And I agree with Peter when he says:



peter-ss said:


> It'll be interesting to see how things work out over the next few months.


----------



## Luvs my Cupra

John I can imagine that was a difficult post to write and I admire your actions in doing so. Let us hope that everyone takes time to reflect on their behaviours and actions.


----------



## Faxygaz

can i ask...what happens about the mag now then?..as i was lead to believe that fully paid up members recieve 4 [i think] magazines a year ?...one of the reasons a lot of people will have paid the extra subs is for the magazine...so,whats happening over it..if this cant be done then surely a refund of some sort is in order.as members arent getting what they were paying for

i add my thanks to John.for producing a top quality magazine..and good luck for the future


----------



## Nem

The next issue of the magazine is already in production. The last issue was about 6 weeks late, due to articles not on time and then having to fall in with printing schedules so we are already pushed back for issue 34, but with the rest of the obvious disruption we're now playing catch up. But we know it has to be done, the page schedule is full and the first few articles are already designed so fear not  We hope to be sending issue 34 out in about 4 -5 weeks time.


----------



## JorgeTTCQ

> We hope to be sending issue 34 out in about 4 -5 weeks time.


That's great, thank you.


----------



## John-H

I'd like to take this opportunity to thank Richard, our long standing and very experienced car magazine designer, who has worked with me since issue 14 of absoluTTe magazine in 2007 - a total of 19 magazines produced to a top standard. Thanks for all your hard work Richard.

Richard had been working on a redesign of absoluTTe to bring it in line with current trends which he does every three years. It is therefore most regrettable that the chairman decided to take away the design role from Richard without consultation and instead employ his friend Dan to design absoluTTe. Richard was not given the opportunity to present his designs and has not even had the courtesy of a phone call or email from the chairman to say his services are no longer required. Pretty disgusting.


----------



## Gazzer

not interested in getting into a row here Nick, but does Dan have the qualifications to produce a legally viable car magazine that will not put the club into dispute with sponsors and or motoring organisations? i assume if he is producing the mag he is covering it with an insurance backed guarantee for any legal chalanges against the club? not saying he isn't capable in any way here but just asking.


----------



## rustyintegrale

FFS. The magazine needs updating. It looks old and it looks poor by today's design standards.

Let's see what the new guy delivers. The old mag was boring visually but most importantly photographically. The new guy needs to have some skill to 'bump up' the image quality to stop it looking like a 'nan' mag.

It looks like a knitting mag at the moment.


----------



## A3DFU

Gazzer said:


> a legally viable car magazine that will not put the club into dispute with sponsors and or motoring organisations


Lets hope that'll be the case Gary.



rustyintegrale said:


> The magazine needs updating.


Richard was ready to do that for A34 Rich


----------



## rustyintegrale

A3DFU said:


> Gazzer said:
> 
> 
> 
> a legally viable car magazine that will not put the club into dispute with sponsors and or motoring organisations
> 
> 
> 
> Lets hope that'll be the case Gary.
> 
> 
> 
> rustyintegrale said:
> 
> 
> 
> The magazine needs updating.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Richard was ready to do that for A34 Rich
Click to expand...

It needs a rethink.


----------



## les

rustyintegrale said:


> A3DFU said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gazzer said:
> 
> 
> 
> a legally viable car magazine that will not put the club into dispute with sponsors and or motoring organisations
> 
> 
> 
> Lets hope that'll be the case Gary.
> 
> 
> 
> rustyintegrale said:
> 
> 
> 
> The magazine needs updating.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Richard was ready to do that for A34 Rich
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It needs a rethink.
Click to expand...

Seems to me there needs to be a lot of rethinking on a number of issues within the TTOC not just with the mag before people start leaving and not renewing their membership like me.


----------



## Bartsimpsonhead

rustyintegrale said:


> FFS. The magazine needs updating. It looks old and it looks poor by today's design standards.
> 
> Let's see what the new guy delivers. The old mag was boring visually but most importantly photographically. The new guy needs to have some skill to 'bump up' the image quality to stop it looking like a 'nan' mag.
> 
> It looks like a knitting mag at the moment.


Photoshop can only do so much!

If people are submitting their own photos with 'Here's My Car 8)' articles, or pix are sent in by Joe Public photographers covering events, then you've got to expect they'll be mostly basic compositions, sometimes with peoples heads cut off, slightly out of focus or poorly lit.

The likes of Top Gear, Revo, Car et all have lovely looking pics because they've lovely big studios, lighting rigs, and experienced pros who know what they're doing out on location.
A good typographer might lay AbsoluTTe out nicely, but it's what they're given to work with that decides ultimately how the pictures look


----------



## Nyxx

What a lot of BS.

It's strange reading a reply when the gammer is nothing like how a person normally writes, it's like a copy and paste of another persons thoughts from a PM/ e-mail.

BTW


John-H said:


> I am willing to give the committee the benefit of the doubt and the chance to prove themselves over the issues of producing a magazine, organising EvenTT13 and renewing advertising contracts for TTF sponsors without my help. I wish you all the best for the future.
> 
> Regards,
> John-H


That did not last long did it John. A bit hard standing by them words was it, we'll it was a week ago. Or was that "Apology" a lot of BS to?

Before drawing conclusion of how the new mag will be, just wait to you see it [smiley=book2.gif] :mrgreen:


----------



## John-H

Nyxx said:


> What a lot of BS.
> 
> It's strange reading a reply when the gammer is nothing like how a person normally writes, it's like a copy and paste of another persons thoughts from a PM/ e-mail.
> 
> BTW
> 
> 
> John-H said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am willing to give the committee the benefit of the doubt and the chance to prove themselves over the issues of producing a magazine, organising EvenTT13 and renewing advertising contracts for TTF sponsors without my help. I wish you all the best for the future.
> 
> Regards,
> John-H
> 
> 
> 
> That did not last long did it John. A bit hard standing by them words was it, we'll it was a week ago. Or was that "Apology" a lot of BS to?
> 
> Before drawing conclusion of how the new mag will be, just wait to you see it [smiley=book2.gif] :mrgreen:
Click to expand...

All my own words and I stand by them when written. My later comment does not refer to the quality or otherwise of the next magazine but comes after speaking to our long standing designer Richard and learning how he has been treated and ignored without even common courtesy considering all his efforts. Following the statement that the next magazine is in production the conclusion can be made right now that he has been shabbily treated.


----------



## rustyintegrale

Bartsimpsonhead said:


> rustyintegrale said:
> 
> 
> 
> FFS. The magazine needs updating. It looks old and it looks poor by today's design standards.
> 
> Let's see what the new guy delivers. The old mag was boring visually but most importantly photographically. The new guy needs to have some skill to 'bump up' the image quality to stop it looking like a 'nan' mag.
> 
> It looks like a knitting mag at the moment.
> 
> 
> 
> Photoshop can only do so much!
> 
> If people are submitting their own photos with 'Here's My Car 8)' articles, or pix are sent in by Joe Public photographers covering events, then you've got to expect they'll be mostly basic compositions, sometimes with peoples heads cut off, slightly out of focus or poorly lit.
> 
> The likes of Top Gear, Revo, Car et all have lovely looking pics because they've lovely big studios, lighting rigs, and experienced pros who know what they're doing out on location.
> A good typographer might lay AbsoluTTe out nicely, but it's what they're given to work with that decides ultimately how the pictures look
Click to expand...

I agree with you. Maybe an article in Absolutte with some hints and tips about producing photographs for submission to the magazine would help.

People seem to get brainwashed into buying high resolution 8MP and up cameras and then think they have to shoot a low quality JPEG to save space on their cards. It's bonkers!


----------



## Nyxx

John sorry but it's BS you just try every way possible to bring mud slinging crap in what ever form you can think of.

This is nothing but your latest attempt to attack Nick/the committee, am sick to death of reading your vendetta, talk about a woman scorn!

If you really stood my your "apology" you should just keep your month shut till the AGM. Then like every Dog you will have your day....or not if it goes the way your farce of EGM went.

In the mean time do as the your quote above, let them have there day and show the members just what they can do or in your case not do. 
The member than can see the all new amazing mag and draw there own conclusion to how good or bad it is to the one's you did.

Do you really think members gives a dam who the committee appoint to do the design and lay out, what they will care about is when suddenly the mag looks like it was so professionally done it could have come from Audi themselves and not look like a temp plate from office Word.
You have had years to update the look of the magazine and done nothing, and the last one with the dragon on the front looked like it was done by a 5 year old cutting out a picture and sticking on the front cover"lets stick a dragon on daddy". It was sham-full that cover.


----------



## rustyintegrale

John-H said:


> My later comment does not refer to the quality or otherwise of the next magazine but comes after speaking to our long standing designer Richard and learning how he has been treated and ignored without even common courtesy considering all his efforts. Following the statement that the next magazine is in production the conclusion can be made right now that he has been shabbily treated.


Unfortunately that's how the design industry has become John.

There is no loyalty and if the designer is perceived as being part of a team that isn't delivering the desired result then he or she will get axed - even if they are perfectly capable of doing what is required.

It's a rubbish environment to work in but largely, after years of undercutting each other to secure business, the profession no longer commands the respect it once did and so design standards have fallen through the floor or stood still. Clients are no longer prepared to be different, they just take what they perceive to be the easiest and cheapest solution.

This country once led in advertising and design creativity but sadly that is no longer the case. South America seems to be the place to go if you want appreciation for what you do.


----------



## audimad

John-H said:


> I'd like to take this opportunity to thank Richard, our long standing and very experienced car magazine designer, who has worked with me since issue 14 of absoluTTe magazine in 2007 - a total of 19 magazines produced to a top standard. Thanks for all your hard work Richard.
> 
> Richard had been working on a redesign of absoluTTe to bring it in line with current trends which he does every three years. It is therefore most regrettable that the chairman decided to take away the design role from Richard without consultation and instead employ his friend Dan to design absoluTTe. Richard was not given the opportunity to present his designs and has not even had the courtesy of a phone call or email from the chairman to say his services are no longer required. Pretty disgusting.


That is not just disgusting John it is also f*cking terrible and a crap way to treat someone. [smiley=thumbsdown.gif]


----------



## Gazzer

Nyxx said:


> John sorry but it's BS you just try every way possible to bring mud slinging crap in what ever form you can think of.
> 
> This is nothing but your latest attempt to attack Nick/the committee, am sick to death of reading your vendetta, talk about a woman scorn!
> 
> If you really stood my your "apology" you should just keep your month shut till the AGM. Then like every Dog you will have your day....or not if it goes the way your farce of EGM went.
> 
> In the mean time do as the your quote above, let them have there day and show the members just what they can do or in your case not do.
> The member than can see the all new amazing mag and draw there own conclusion to how good or bad it is to the one's you did.
> 
> Do you really think members gives a dam who the committee appoint to do the design and lay out, what they will care about is when suddenly the mag looks like it was so professionally done it could have come from Audi themselves and not look like a temp plate from office Word.
> You have had years to update the look of the magazine and done nothing, and the last one with the dragon on the front looked like it was done by a 5 year old cutting out a picture and sticking on the front cover"lets stick a dragon on daddy". It was sham-full that cover.


Dave, and this post isn't mud slinging? now regarding the dragon pic, the committee would have signed off on this....so they are all to blame maybe?
if the original designer who has worked on the mag for years has indeed not been contacted then that in all honesty is a tad pi55 poor and very unprofessional tbh. if the ttoc were a large business then i would say ok......they have found a new supplier and alls fair in business, but to not even contact him to notify and settle up on work already done and money owed to him???? i wouldn't be happy either tbh.

John, stop posting on anything to do with committee business is my advice as you will only be picked to death by the committee faithfull. (aimed at no one person just the truth as i see it)


----------



## burns

I most certainly was not asked for my opinion over the horrific cover produced for A33, so please don't think that I had anything to do with that. It looked like a child had produced it.

As for the "committee faithful" posting in response to comments made by John, may I point out that you and the rest of John's supporters have been doing exactly what you criticise others for: posting in support of what you believe in. Gazzer, everyone is entitled to an opinion; just because you don't agree with that opinion doesn't make it wrong, or bullying, or ganging up.


----------



## Gazzer

burns said:


> I most certainly was not asked for my opinion over the horrific cover produced for A33, so please don't think that I had anything to do with that. It looked like a child had produced it.
> 
> As for the "committee faithful" posting in response to comments made by John, may I point out that you and the rest of John's supporters have been doing exactly what you criticise others for: posting in support of what you believe in. Gazzer, everyone is entitled to an opinion; just because you don't agree with that opinion doesn't make it wrong, or bullying, or ganging up.


Sara i didn't disagree or agree with daves post, i just pointed out that he also slung mud. if the mag wasn't signed off then i agree the cover did look childish in appearance and wasn't upto normal standards.

what john posted regarding the designer is as phil says bad to not be contacted, no falsehoods or accusations their lol. i backed off of it all as it was just getting silly tbh and even nick and i have dropped any argument we may have had.
stuck at work this week end, but hope you have a good one hun.


----------



## Nyxx

I understand where your coming from Gazza, but Rusty has hit the nail on the head perfectly.

Think of it this way all the text etc goes of to the design house, "all" they do is lay it out as per told for each page.

What they should do is know what looks good and what looks like it's come out of someone's bedroom and if it looks Sh!t then they could say "looks guys can we suggest........" If they just collect the cheque and make something look as bad as the last front cover did, then yes they should be sacked.

Just wait till you see the new one, John and who ever is responsibly should take a big hard look in the mirror and ask "why did I not get my name on that?"


----------



## Gazzer

Nyxx said:


> I understand where your coming from Gazza, but Rusty has hit the nail on the head perfectly.
> 
> Think of it this way all the text etc goes of to the design house, "all" they do is lay it out as per told for each page.
> 
> What they should do is know what looks good and what looks like it's come out of someone's bedroom and if it looks Sh!t then they could say "looks guys can we suggest........" If they just collect the cheque and make something look as bad as the last front cover did, then yes they should be sacked.
> 
> Just wait till you see the new one, John and who ever is responsibly should take a big hard look in the mirror and ask "why did I not get my name on that?"


oooohhhhhhhhh can't wait now Dave, only 4 more racks of powder coating to do today and can then bugger off home till tomorrow and another day of blast and wet spray for me [smiley=bigcry.gif] 
will deff be chilling with cpl of wines and board games with two of the grand kids :?


----------



## A3DFU

Nyxx said:


> If you really stood my your "apology" you should just keep your month shut till the AGM.


Sorry Dave but I beg to differ here. The ex designer, Richard, should have been informed out of courtesy IMHO. And that is what John was getting at


----------



## phope

Quite frankly John...you're trying to create more friction and I'm rather confused about your motives :?

What has been done in the last week or so is to have mock covers made available with a couple of possible logo styles, together with a couple of mock article layouts. Between the committee members that could spare the time earlier in the week to join in a Skype call, we've also come up with a plan for content for the next issue.

These mockups have been made available to the committee members to have a look at, and have also been forwarded to several of the club advertisers to let them see as well what a possible design change could look like.

and you know what? The reaction from the advertisers has been entirely positive with the mock ups


----------

