# Scumbags



## baynesey (Jul 20, 2006)

This Country! :evil:

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,, ... 44,00.html


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## Guest (Aug 8, 2006)

i nearly choked on my cereal when i heard this! :?


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## YELLOW_TT (Feb 25, 2004)

I would pay 6% to keep the bastards out :evil:


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## baynesey (Jul 20, 2006)

Makes me sick ... when I think about all the TAX I pay already .. scumbags, the lot of them ..


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## thebears (Jan 14, 2006)

So far this week were being stung for fuel, road tax, pay per use on the roads and now a tax on letting scum into the country.

I'd pay the 6% if the scum were out fixings all the potholes in our roads on a daily basis.


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## Leg (Jan 11, 2006)

Somehwere along the line the powers that be forgot that this is OUR conutry and WE elected them to represent OUR best interests and not so WE could PAY for everything that THEY and other people from other countries want.

I lost all patience with it 2 years ago and im voting with my feet, the place is going to the shitters and we are paying for the journey.

Well they can spin on my middle digit if they think im contributing any more than I have to. Arrogant arseholes.

On another note, ill tell u about immigration, try 3 years, yes 3 chuffin years to wait for your papers when going to Canada on their points system and ive got plenty of cash, held a job for 19 years and my wife is a Nurse Practitioner with a Masters and we are the right age. Now theres a country that you can safely say doesnt let spunging fkin scummy twats in!

Why the UK doesnt just cut and paste Canada/Australia's immigration policies I dont know, someones getting a backhander somewhere IMO


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## Guest (Aug 8, 2006)

the uk has an obligation to let in asylum seekers and other sponging liers - something to do with the agreement with all EU countries - having to take in so many thousands of "them"....

ok, they are all human and deserve basic human rights: clean water, shelter, basic food etc but this is just a p*ss take surely!?!?! i'd rather contribute towards their one way ticket back to where they came from with a bag of rice and a bottle of water to NOT towards their job-free lifestyles here in the residential slum/areas of the city centre trying the surrounding area to how "they" want it (with 2nd hand furniture shops out on the street, fruit stalls out on the streets, and other unsightly buildings especially with that 1/4 moon statue on top etc..) basically making a mess of the whole country :?

and they complain when the police/joe public are suspicious of them! :lol:


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## TeeTees (Mar 9, 2006)

I am speechless. I think it's best I don't comment, cuz once I start moaning about taxes and immigration I won't stop.........sh!t me, we get stung left, right and centre in this country :evil:

Off Topic :

We're having major moans in Bristol at the moment because of having to sort out yer own rubbish. I couldn't believe I had to strip the paper off the tin of Ambrosia Cream Rice the other day, and then wash out the freaking tin.......next thing, they'll be telling me they want it in a glass presentation box !! :lol: Give me that freaking dustbin lorry - I'll drive it myself :lol:


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## thebears (Jan 14, 2006)

Leg said:


> Somehwere along the line the powers that be forgot that this is OUR conutry and WE elected them to represent OUR best interests and not so WE could PAY for everything that THEY and other people from other countries want.
> 
> I lost all patience with it 2 years ago and im voting with my feet, the place is going to the shitters and we are paying for the journey.
> 
> ...


Well written


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## thebears (Jan 14, 2006)

AndyRoo_TT said:


> the uk has an obligation to let in asylum seekers and other sponging liers - something to do with the agreement with all EU countries - having to take in so many thousands of "them"....


Really, i think france/germany/spain just let them pass through as they know when they get to England the can go no further. SCUM


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## Guest (Aug 8, 2006)

TeeTees said:


> We're having major moans in Bristol at the moment because of having to sort out yer own rubbish. I couldn't believe I had to strip the paper off the tin of Ambrosia Cream Rice the other day, and then wash out the freaking tin.......next thing, they'll be telling me they want it in a glass presentation box !! :lol: Give me that freaking dustbin lorry - I'll drive it myself :lol:


 :lol: :lol: :lol:

ours are a bit "girly" too - i remember last year we were doing some major DIY in our house so the wheelie bin was a little heavy (not too heavy to lever over etc), so they didnt empty it even tho its a f*cking mechanical arm that lifts the god-damned bin!! :roll: 
in the end had to empty it myself into black bin liners, bung them in the car and make the journey to the local tip, only to find it was closed :x


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## thebears (Jan 14, 2006)

TeeTees said:


> Give me that freaking dustbin lorry - I'll drive it myself :lol:


And they get Â£30k for the privilage :roll:


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## TeeTees (Mar 9, 2006)

AndyRoo_TT said:


> ours are a bit "girly" too - i remember last year we were doing some major DIY in our house so the wheelie bin was a little heavy (not too heavy to lever over etc), so they didnt empty it even tho its a f*cking mechanical arm that lifts the god-damned bin!! :roll:
> in the end had to empty it myself into black bin liners, bung them in the car and make the journey to the local tip, only to find it was closed :x


OMG......what a wasted journey. I'd have been well peed off with that one. Surprised the black bin liners didn't split if the stuff was real heavy.

Just down the bottom off our road is the local council office. I noticed this morning that somebody had left 3 full bin liners outside it. Oh well, that'll give 'em something to do - I just pray that the person who left them didn't leave anything personal in it


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## Guest (Aug 8, 2006)

TeeTees said:


> AndyRoo_TT said:
> 
> 
> > ours are a bit "girly" too - i remember last year we were doing some major DIY in our house so the wheelie bin was a little heavy (not too heavy to lever over etc), so they didnt empty it even tho its a f*cking mechanical arm that lifts the god-damned bin!! :roll:
> ...


maybe what was in them is related to this thread? where they moving? :roll: :wink: must have been a note on the side saying "please send back to wherever they came from" :wink:


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## TeeTees (Mar 9, 2006)

AndyRoo_TT said:


> maybe what was in them is related to this thread? where they moving? :roll: :wink: must have been a note on the side saying "please send back to wherever they came from" :wink:


LMAO......I wish :lol: :lol:

"not known at any address in the UK"


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

The words off and duck spring to mind.

We have no need for immergration in the UK - anyone without a UK passport should be denied benifits and deported immed.


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## TeeTees (Mar 9, 2006)

Surely we should have limits as to how many people we can have in this country, like they do with buses and nightclubs :lol:


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## TTwiggy (Jul 20, 2004)

We live in a growing economy, which is the reason that people want to come here, it's also the reason that you all have those nice shiny cars parked outside your nice big houses...

If any of you should have the misfortune to crash those shiny cars and require hospital treatment, you'd better be prepared for a 1 in 3 chance that it will be an immigrant who saves your life...

I try not to get involved in these sorts of discussions, whether online or 'down the pub', but just remember that it's a short walk from these views to the sound of smashing glass and marching jack boots.....


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## zedman (Jan 31, 2005)

YELLOW_TT said:


> I would pay 6% to keep the bastards out :evil:


please justify why they are 'bastards'?


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

zedman said:


> YELLOW_TT said:
> 
> 
> > I would pay 6% to keep the bastards out :evil:
> ...


well the context is immergration - so i'll take a wild guess as say immergrants. :wink:


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## TTwiggy (Jul 20, 2004)

Toshiba said:


> zedman said:
> 
> 
> > YELLOW_TT said:
> ...


I wonder if these IMMIGRANTS can spell though?.....


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

does it matter either way?

Maybe all the forum members should pay me 6% as a tax for me to purchase a new one every year?


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## zedman (Jan 31, 2005)

so can i take from this then that the educated people of this forum think that all immigrants are bastards/scumbags etc? hardly a very educated and broad minded view?

only from where i'm sat (and that'd be the immigrant side) it seems if you want to get angry and call people these things then why dont you say it to the government rather than the immigrants who come here and do shitty jobs that a lot of uk residents don't want to do!

Toshiba, do we have a S Yorks meet? i'd absolutely love to have a chat with u face to face about this?


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## TTonyTT (Apr 24, 2006)

zedman said:


> so can i take from this then that the educated people of this forum think that all immigrants are bastards/scumbags etc? hardly a very educated and broad minded view?
> 
> only from where i'm sat (and that'd be the immigrant side) it seems if you want to get angry and call people these things then why dont you say it to the government rather than the immigrants who come here and do shitty jobs that a lot of uk residents don't want to do!


I've come into this on page 3. But then I usually look at page 3 first anyways.

It's true, without immigration, we'd have no NHS, no Tube, very few buses, little refuse collection, no Polish car-washing stations, and no Chinese take-aways. It would also take ages to get a beer in a London pub. Both ARSEnal and Chelski would also find it difficult putting out a full team. From that detailed and rational analysis, I conclude that, in general, some immigration is "a good thing", and in some other repects, perhaps less good.

What annoys me ... well, actually, quite a few things, but relevant to this topic what annoys me ... is ANYONE who believes that they are owed a living. Anyone who EXPECTS and TAKES with nothing offered and given in return. Now, that may be an immigrant, or it may be a 13 year old single mother (white, British, non-immigrant). Both contribute to taxes being upped 6%. Or perhaps both are just convenient scapegoats for what would have happenned anyway.

In my - admittedly limited - experience, 1st and 2nd generation immigrants generally work hard, and contribute more than they take. They're here either because they've been persecuted elsewhere (and therefore are grateful and relieved that we've "let them in"), or are economic migrants which almost by definition suggests that they're here to work. By the time the 3rd gen is being brought up, then perhaps things are a little different - perhaps they've become naturalised and noticed all the 13 year old single mothers getting all the handouts.

But by 3rd gen, they're English, and no longer immigrants.

What really does annoy me is disregard for English culture, history, laws and accepted behaviour. An Englishman having a drink in Saudi Arabia has his hands cut off. Fair enough - that's the law there. We have (or had, pre EU) laws here. Built up over centuries of having a professional and educated legal system. And lawyers too. Now those laws and established behaviours seem to count for nothing. Immigration is fine (see above), but not immigrants who want only to create the UK branch of Pakistan, Poland or Patagonia. If "you" want to come here, at least respect and live by our rules. If you don't like our way of life, go somewhere else, because you'll not be happy here and we'll not be happy with you here.

Bring back the good old days. And ricketts.

Any votes?


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

zedman said:


> so can i take from this then that the educated people of this forum think that all immigrants are bastards/scumbags etc? hardly a very educated and broad minded view?
> 
> only from where i'm sat (and that'd be the immigrant side) it seems if you want to get angry and call people these things then why dont you say it to the government rather than the immigrants who come here and do shitty jobs that a lot of uk residents don't want to do!
> 
> Toshiba, do we have a S Yorks meet? i'd absolutely love to have a chat with u face to face about this?


Hold on - why are having a go at me? i did not swear at anyone, or insult anyone.

My point is a simple one, We have people here in the UK who can not find jobs or get benifits for housing and or other types of care - Why should someone from outside the UK get any form of help before someone who was born here?

Does the UK goverment not have a duty to provide these functions for its own people rather than funding econimic immigrants from another?

If you want to get arsey then feel free to pm me, as im not going to sit here and take it. I will also ask you to read back this topic - you will see i have called no one anything. I have guessed at what someone else has put - This guess could be totally wrong - however if you have a problem with the words someone else has used - vent your anger at them not me.


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## zedman (Jan 31, 2005)

well...

1. I think i have a right to get arsey as my parents are first generation immigrants, i'll not read u their CV's but they are v proud people, dont take a penny off the state - never have done, but given some of the attitudes here would you lot who call all immigrants scumbags and bastards look down on them? when i read these things i think well thats where i'm from so are you calling me a bastard/scumbag too? can nobody understand that?

2. Toshiba, my comment about meeting you in person is not directed in an arsey or 'having a go' way, it's a genuine comment as we always seem to 'discuss' these points on the forum and i'd like the opportunity to discuss this with u in person as u seem to have a lot of points and i feel we could have a good discussion out of it, my post was actually intially addressed to 'the educated people of this forum' - not to you personally. If u do feel i'm being rude or whatever send me a PM, we can take it off air!


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## TTwiggy (Jul 20, 2004)

I think the point Toshiba, is that while you may not have made the most offensive remarks, you have continued the discussion. Maybe you're braver than those who were labelling the immigrants as scumbags/bastards who have now gone rather quiet, but zedman is a classic case of a hardworking second gen immigrant who was bound to be offended by the nature of this thread. It's really about taking as wide a view as possible and then making up your mind, as opposed to reading one article from skynews (which barely deserves the moniker 'news') and then going on a rant, or setting oneself up as a poster boy for the BNP as some posters (not yourself Tosh) did earlier on this thread...


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## baynesey (Jul 20, 2006)

ooooohh ... just want to point out that my "scumbag" jib was aimed at the Goverment, MP or whatever monkey decided that the honest working British Citizen that already pays (in my eyes) way too much in Tax still has to foot the bill the immigrants that slip into this country ...

I'm fed up with it, seeing them get housed, benefits etc .. it should stop they shouldn't get anything, nothing at all .. . :evil:

</rant>


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

I looked back at what was posted zedman, he said why - i saw it as who 

I never commented on the swear word or scumbags comments.

I cant fault people (anyone) for wanting to make a better life for themselves and their kids, but who pays for it and how is rather a hot topic.


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## TTwiggy (Jul 20, 2004)

baynesey said:


> ooooohh ... just want to point out that my "scumbag" jib was aimed at the Goverment, MP or whatever monkey decided that the honest working British Citizen that already pays (in my eyes) way too much in Tax still has to foot the bill the immigrants that slip into this country ...
> 
> I'm fed up with it, seeing them get housed, benefits etc .. it should stop they shouldn't get anything, nothing at all .. . :evil:
> 
> </rant>


the finest example of 'cab driver politics' I have ever heard.... The idea that someone would hand over a lot of money, and entrust their lives to a people-trafficker, travel in appalling conditions, risk death and detainment, simply to come to Britian and take advantage of our benefit system (which contrary to popular opinion, isn't that generous) is simply laughable. And what's with the 'oooooh'? If you can voice your opinion, I'm allowed to disagree with it....


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## TTonyTT (Apr 24, 2006)

TTwiggy said:


> The idea that someone would hand over a lot of money, and entrust their lives to a people-trafficker, travel in appalling conditions, risk death and detainment, simply to come to Britian and take advantage of our benefit system (which contrary to popular opinion, isn't that generous) is simply laughable.


But isn't that just as much of a cliche? It's a lot easier - for many, I accept not for all - immigrants to get into the country nowadays.


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## baynesey (Jul 20, 2006)

TTwiggy said:


> the finest example of 'cab driver politics' I have ever heard.... The idea that someone would hand over a lot of money, and entrust their lives to a people-trafficker, travel in appalling conditions, risk death and detainment, simply to come to Britian and take advantage of our benefit system (which contrary to popular opinion, isn't that generous) is simply laughable. And what's with the 'oooooh'? If you can voice your opinion, I'm allowed to disagree with it....


I'm not saying they trek half way across the world for free benefits etc, I understand the majority are fleeing from war torn countries etc etc .. but what pisses me off is they get it handed on a plate when they arrive, and WE have to pay for it .. it's not my problem, so I feel I shouldnt have to contribute to them, as I'm currently working my arse to feed and support my own young family.

And with the 'ooooooh' it was ment to be a noise for 'oh no this has been misinterpreted, so I best put the matter straight' type thing

xx


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## TTwiggy (Jul 20, 2004)

ok, first we have to understand that there are three main types of immigrant

1) asylum seekers - these tend to cause the most 'outrage' but there's nothing we can do about it. We are a signed up to a UN treaty to accept refugess from polictical/religious hotspots where there might be persecution going on. No matter your views, you'd have to accept that peole being killed for speaking out against harsh regimes is bad. Also we are 74th in the world in terms of the numbers we take, so it's not a big deal really.

2) Economic migrants - these are people from countrys like Poland etc who come here to earn more money/make a better life. They are allowed to do this, it's no different to someone leaving Scotland and coming to London for a better salary etc. These people contribute to the country in terms of the skills they bring and taxes they pay (after all, they have to eat, but clothes, run cars, so they pay VAT road/petrol tax etc)

3)Illegal Immigrants - Ok a difficult one, and granted no one really knows how many of these people there are. Some will be criminals, some will be hard working (though illegal) folk who just want a better life. they are here because this country has a growing economy, they still contribute their skills, and even if they work illegally they still pay tax on everything they buy.


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## TTwiggy (Jul 20, 2004)

baynesey said:


> TTwiggy said:
> 
> 
> > the finest example of 'cab driver politics' I have ever heard.... The idea that someone would hand over a lot of money, and entrust their lives to a people-trafficker, travel in appalling conditions, risk death and detainment, simply to come to Britian and take advantage of our benefit system (which contrary to popular opinion, isn't that generous) is simply laughable. And what's with the 'oooooh'? If you can voice your opinion, I'm allowed to disagree with it....
> ...


If I've misunderstood you then I apologise, but this isn't a simple subject. I understand how you feel believe me - if I took home that 'before deductions' part of my payslip, I'd be a happy man (and one who was driving a porsche!) but as you say yourself, some of these people are fleeing life threatening situations, which compared with my lack of a 911 in the garage, is quite a big deal. And it kind of is our problem, we all live on this planet, it's getting smaller by the day, and eventually this stuff is going to affect us all. There was a slogan used by the people who went to fight against Franco in the Spanish civil war

"If you tolerate this, your children will be next"


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## TeeTees (Mar 9, 2006)

The problem that I have with this issue is just the fact that the bloody Government don't know when to say "no more please", and close the doors until we have established how many people are in this country, and how many more we can let in. And due to the Government not keeping a tight rein on how many me have let in, we now have to pay more taxes.....once again thanks Government for cocking up, but don't worry - the workers will pay for your mess.

Yes, immigrants do supply us with a good workforce - I won't deny that. There are some who are spongers, but I think that relates to us Brits as well, as there are people living around by me who sit on their arse all day drinking cheap cider and taking money from us taxpayers. So all races have spongers to a certain degree.

I have friends who are 1st term immigrants from different countries, and they work there butts off, pay their taxes, and in my opinion that's good enough for me.

But to all races, please understand...Britain is only a tiny little island and we have to say stop at some time like other countries.


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## TTwiggy (Jul 20, 2004)

Actually economists think that in order to drive our growing economy on, the last thing we can afford to do is stop immigration (of the legal kind). Our popualtion (white, idigenous British) is shrinking due to a falling birth rate, so we need workers. And as I said before, to say to the next Pole or Czech worker, 'sorry son, we're full' is not legal. It would be no different to saying 'no northerners, Scots, Welsh, Irish, brummies etc' at the borders of London because it wa 'full'. Although as someone born and brought up in London I might vote for, that as it seems I'm the only person with a London accent I ever meet in town..... :lol: :wink:


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## TeeTees (Mar 9, 2006)

TTwiggy said:


> Actually economists think that in order to drive our growing economy on, the last thing we can afford to do is stop immigration (of the legal kind). Our popualtion (white, idigenous British) is shrinking due to a falling birth rate, so we need workers. And as I said before, to say to the next Pole or Czech worker, 'sorry son, we're full' is not legal. It would be no different to saying 'no northerners, Scots, Welsh, Irish, brummies etc' at the borders of London because it wa 'full'. Although as someone born and brought up in London I might vote for, that as it seems I'm the only person with a London accent I ever meet in town..... :lol: :wink:


True, I suppose <hmmph>..... I quite liked the idea off saying 'no room at the Inn' :wink:

The other reason our population is shrinking is because people are fleeing Britain to get away from the lousy way it's ran. And if car tax and fuel charges get any higher, I'll be off as well :lol:


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## a18eem (Sep 24, 2005)

YELLOW_TT said:


> I would pay 6% to keep the bastards out :evil:


 :lol: :lol: So would I !


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## TTwiggy (Jul 20, 2004)

a18eem said:


> YELLOW_TT said:
> 
> 
> > I would pay 6% to keep the bastards out :evil:
> ...


so the last 2 and half pages just passed you by yeah? :?


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## StuarTT (May 7, 2002)

> The other reason our population is shrinking is because people are fleeing Britain to get away from the lousy way it's ran. And if car tax and fuel charges get any higher, I'll be off as well


Hopefully, for you, not to a country where the locals are saying 'bastards' or 'I'll pay 6% tax to keep them out!'.

Sitting here reading through this thread made me realise that I am a second generation economic migrant myself.

My parents left England in 1964 in search of a better future for their family and found it, first in Germany and then in Luxembourg.

When they moved to Germany the second world war had only been over for 19 years and our landlady's husband had been killed in the war (IIRC correctly by our allies at Stalingrad). The whole family was made to feel at home and all the neighbours were always welcoming and generous.

I hope the country you move to makes you feel equally welcome.


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## Wallsendmag (Feb 12, 2004)

TTwiggy said:


> And as I said before, to say to the next Pole or Czech worker, 'sorry son, we're full' is not legal. It would be no different to saying 'no northerners, Scots, Welsh, Irish, brummies etc' at the borders of London because it wa 'full'.


Sounds like a plan to me :wink:


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## TTwiggy (Jul 20, 2004)

thankyou stuarTT, you've made what I was trying to say very clear, and also convinced me that I'm not the only person on this forum who doesn't stand somewhere to the right of Attilla the Hun with my world views.

As you say, those who think it's a good idea to 'flee' this country before it goes down the pan should realise that they would then be immigrants themselves....


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## TeeTees (Mar 9, 2006)

TTwiggy said:


> thankyou stuarTT, you've made what I was trying to say very clear, and also convinced me that I'm not the only person on this forum who doesn't stand somewhere to the right of Attilla the Hun with my world views.
> 
> As you say, those who think it's a good idea to 'flee' this country before it goes down the pan should realise that they would then be immigrants themselves....


.....and like I put in previous messages, I blame the Government - NOT the immigrants. So if I decide to 'flee' and become an immigrant elsewhere, hey so be it. :wink:


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## TTonyTT (Apr 24, 2006)

TTwiggy said:


> Actually economists think that in order to drive our growing economy on, the last thing we can afford to do is stop immigration (of the legal kind).


Economists have correctly predicted 10 of the last 5 recessions. The point is that their models are hardly the most reliable or robust.

The conclusion and statement re need for more migration is made on the basis of too many simplifying assumptions. It ignores aspects such as extending working lives, reduction in the size of the welfare state and consequent increase in the "native" working population, and more.

Every economy is pressured when it's growing. That used to lead to labour shortages and increased wages, which acted to relieve that pressure by turning down the "growth" rate. Now the same pressure is relieved by immigration (legal and illegal) from an enlarged labour market area (EU). What happens if and when the economy stops growing so strongly. Do the immigrants "go home" or do they stay here? We don't know yet.



TTwiggy said:


> And as I said before, to say to the next Pole or Czech worker, 'sorry son, we're full' is not legal. It would be no different to saying 'no northerners, Scots, Welsh, Irish, brummies etc' at the borders of London because it wa 'full'.


The legality bit bugs me. It's not legal because we have the open market at least within the EU, and then European Human Rights protecting the rights of immigrants from outside the EU. Those are laws passed in Europe without any direct approval by the UK population. Yet most opinion polls would have us "out of Europe" - whatever that may mean and entail. It suggests that laws are being applied to the majority of the UK population that they object to and do not support. Which would seem to make them "unfair".

I hope I've not raised the tone of this argument too far :wink:


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## StuarTT (May 7, 2002)

> Those are laws passed in Europe without any direct approval by the UK population.


Actually the Human Rights Act, although not approved by the UK population (by referendum), was approved in all its parts by the current Government.

The UK Government was the only government of all the signatory governments that approved, unconditionally, all parts of the Human Rights Act. All the other governments felt that some parts were unnecessary and chose not to apply them in their legislation.

I might be being cynical about this, but isn't the wife of the Prime Minister a 'leading Human Rights lawyer'. I wonder if that has anything to do with it?


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## Jae (May 6, 2002)

Isnt it also the case that some member states of the EU have explicitly stated that they would not permit economic migrants from the new member states until 2008? I think Germany are one for starters!

Germany is still paying for the East joining the West - all of the Ozzies (as they are called here) have moved to the old West Germany, the East is deserted (apart from a couple of cities) and property is going at a steal! This is also why the rate of VAT is going up on Jan 1st from 16% to 19%, which is unacceptable - all to help the country recover.

Also, doesnt the UN directive about Asylum Seekers state that they should flee to the nearest safe haven? Im no guru at Geography, but isnt the UK the most furthest of all countries from ANY regions of unrest??!

Im not going to get started on this, but one thing is clear to me - always respect the culture and rules of the country you live in, and dont expect any more. Seems that that is missed by many.

Jae


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## TTwiggy (Jul 20, 2004)

yes Jae, they should go to the nearest country, but given the economic and polictical situation in most of Africa, that 'nearest safe country' can be a long way away. But this does have an effect, and it's the reason why, as I pointed out a while back, we (Britain) are only 78th on the list.... there are 77 other countries that take more asylum seekers than us...


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## TTonyTT (Apr 24, 2006)

StuarTT said:


> > Those are laws passed in Europe without any direct approval by the UK population.
> 
> 
> Actually the Human Rights Act, although not approved by the UK population (by referendum), was approved in all its parts by the current Government.


Which indicates quite clearly the problem with using national elections and the winning party as the government as a proxy for the population's assent to any individual decision.

Just over 20% of the UK electorate voted for the Labour government in 2005, just under 25% did so in 2001, and just over 30% in 1997. Scary, huh. I don't think anyone can interpret that level of voting population approval as a "mandate from the UK people" for anything at all.

When voting in a general election there are obviously all sorts of factors influencing the voter's decision - all parties manifestos used to be hugely complex and unreadable, but are now simplified glossy brochures. Europe may be one of the issues, but is probably a lower priority (for most) than the expectation of more money for the NHS or lower income tax rates. UK elections are rarely single issue elections.

Which is why major country-affecting decisions ought to be put to referendum here.

Which is why - until we get a referendum for past as well as future devolutions of authority and control to the EU parliament - I'll continue to object to being ruled by a bunch of largely foreign bureaucrats whose legitimacy to make those decisions, I dispute.


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## StuarTT (May 7, 2002)

Referendums will only be used by the current Government when they have found a way of ensuring that the outcome is always the one they want.


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## TTCool (Feb 7, 2005)

Does all this rhetoric apply to a married Italian couple who came to England about 100 years ago?


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## ttmonkey (Feb 28, 2005)

Leg said:


> On another note, ill tell u about immigration, try 3 years, yes 3 chuffin years to wait for your papers when going to Canada on their points system and ive got plenty of cash, held a job for 19 years and my wife is a Nurse Practitioner with a Masters and we are the right age. Now theres a country that you can safely say doesnt let spunging fkin scummy twats in!
> 
> Why the UK doesnt just cut and paste Canada/Australia's immigration policies I dont know, someones getting a backhander somewhere IMO


Quite ironic that you want to be a 'spunging fkin scummy twat' yourself in Canada isn't it...? :roll: Or perhaps you don't see that the right-wing element in Canada will view you as the same? You don't seem to see that your generalisation of all immigrants into the UKcould be applied to you as an immigrant into another country.


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## Guest (Aug 14, 2006)

ok, so we established that we, joe public, have to foot the bill for these immigrants. Surely they all get a temporary national insurance number to keep track of how much benefit they recieve? Why cant this be paid back by them when they get work, or stop their payments after 6 months therefore forcing them to work in this country? In the end it wouldnt cost us, joe public, anything - they pay back what they received (including any interest). bit like an emergency "loan"....its fair IMHO.....


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

thebears said:


> TeeTees said:
> 
> 
> > Give me that freaking dustbin lorry - I'll drive it myself :lol:
> ...


Errrr, where?


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## KenTT (Feb 20, 2005)

I wonder if anyone has ever worked out how much tax they pay in one month as a percentage of that months wage. If you consider almost every thing you pay for in the shops has 17.5% VAT, petrol has 80% tax I think, along with council tax and road tax. Then the big one, income tax :evil: .


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## ttmonkey (Feb 28, 2005)

KenTT said:


> I wonder if anyone has ever worked out how much tax they pay in one month as a percentage of that months wage. If you consider almost every thing you pay for in the shops has 17.5% VAT, petrol has 80% tax I think, along with council tax and road tax. Then the big one, income tax :evil: .


Figures published by the Evening Standard and the Independent:

NHS AND SCHOOLS 'AT RISK FROM SURGE IN EU IMMIGRANTS' - The Times 31/07 
Claim: A leaked government report warned that schools and hospitals will struggle to cope with an influx of people from eastern Europe. 
Reality: Immigrants make up 8 per cent of the workforce but contribute 10 per cent of the UK's GDP. Ernst & Young reports they are net tax contributors - rather than a burden - to the public purse, easing the pensions bill through tax and keeping interest rates at least 0.5 per cent lower - equivalent to Â£500 a year on the average mortgage.


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## ttmonkey (Feb 28, 2005)

Full list taken from the Evening Standard:

The headlines ... and the truth

HALT THE TIDE OF EU MIGRANTS ... HIV CHILDREN BRINGING TIMEBOMB TO BRITAIN - Sunday Express, 20/8 
Claim: Britain is confronted with an HIV time bomb when Romanian teenagers descend on our over-stretched health service. 
Reality: There are 15,850 Romanians with HIV/Aids, according to the UN. Two thirds were infected while living in children's state institutions during the late 1980s. The infection rate is 0.7 per cent of the population - slightly less than in the UK.

* EAST EUROPE MIGRANTS HELP TAKE JOBLESS TO SIX-YEAR HIGH - Daily Mail, 17/8 
Claim: Unemployment has soared to its highest level for more than six years as thousands of workers arrive from eastern Europe. 
Reality: While the unemployment rate rose last month, the number of people in work grew by 42,000 over the three months to March 2006 and by 240,000 over the year, to reach 28.94 million - the highest number of people in work since records began in 1971.

* MIGRANTS GET BRITS' PAY SLASHED BY 50 PER CENT - The Sun, 18/8 
Claim: Earnings of British builders and other manual workers have slumped by 50 per cent as a flood of east European migrants drives down wages. 
Reality: The annual growth rate in average earnings excluding bonuses, was 3.9 per cent in June 2006, up 0.1 per cent on the previous month. Including bonuses wages grew by 4.3 per cent, up 0.2 per cent on the previous month.

* UNCHECKED IMMIGRATION IS PUTTING BRITONS OUT OF WORK - Daily Telegraph, 18/8 
Claim: The unprecedented influx of newcomers has had an impact on the availability of social housing. 
Reality: The shortage of homes in Britain pre-dates the arrival of east European workers. Accession state workers do not qualify for council housing.

* CHEERS, WE'RE COMING TO RIP YOU OFF - People 20/8 
Claim: Mafia chiefs in Bulgaria are plotting to flood Britain with heroin, prostitutes and guns when they join the EU in January. 
Reality: The Centre for the Study of Democracy, a Sofia-based think-tank, found the crime rate in Bulgaria was lower than the European average with crime rates falling by half between 2001 and 2004. It is now safer than Denmark and Australia.

* HOW THE NEW FAGINS ARE BRINGING CHILD SLAVERY TO BRITAIN - Sunday Telegraph 4/6 
Claim: The UK is likely to surge up the league of favoured destinations for trafficked women and children once Romania and Bulgaria join the EU next year. 
Reality: The US State Department recently welcomed Bulgarian efforts to crack down on trafficking, offering witnesses protection and allowing suspects to be extradited to stand trial abroad. The number of trafficking convictions in Bulgarian courts increased nearly fivefold in 2005 - up to 34.

* IMMIGRANTS TO FLOOD IN - Daily Star 24/07 
Claim: Britain will be swamped by up to 145,000 poverty-stricken migrants from Bulgaria and Romania who are expected to flock here once they join the EU. 
Reality: Think-tank the IPPR estimates 56,000 will arrive from both countries in the first year - 41,000 of them from Romania. A Bulgarian government survey revealed only 2.9 per cent of its nationals planned to migrate. 
The debate over east European immigration is degenerating into "hysteria", leading think-tanks have warned. 
As Downing Street indicated that Tony Blair has yet to decide on whether to allow Romanians and Bulgarians free entry into the UK when their countries join the European Union next year, experts warned yesterday that opponents were basing their arguments on ignorance and prejudice. 
It follows weeks of furious newspaper headlines and political sabre rattling denouncing the threat posed by new arrivals from the former communist bloc. Stories have claimed they will overstretch Britain's schools and hospitals, drive down wages on building sites, as well as threatening a violent crime wave and even a new HIV epidemic. 
The independent Immigration Advisory Service (IAS) condemned " ill-informed comment" about the flow of workers, likening it to the " hysteria" that surrounded the accession of Poland and other countries in 2004. "The reality is somewhat different from the comments of those who have not examined the facts carefully enough before making wild statements," said Keith Best, the IAS's chief executive. 
Estimates on how many Romanians and Bulgarians will come to the UK differ widely - ranging from 300,000 in the first 20 months to 56,000 in the first year. The Home Office said there was no official projection. 
But the Government signalled yesterday it was preparing to take a more cautious line than the previous day's assertion by Alistair Darling, the Trade and Industry Secretary, that there would be no "open door" for citizens of the two countries. A Downing Street spokeswoman insisted a decision would be made "at the appropriate time" later in the year. 
Mr Darling's remarks were interpreted as meaning that Romanians and Bulgarians could have to wait up to seven years before they enjoy the same entry rights as citizens of other former communist states. But the No 10 spokeswoman said Mr Darling had simply been discussing the need for a " mature debate" on the subject of immigration generally. "He was talking of the general need for managed migration. In terms of Bulgaria and Romania, decisions on that will be made at the appropriate time," she said. 
Danny Sriskandarajah, the associate director of the Institute for Public Policy Research, warned that attitudes were hardening against the eastern European arrivals. "We have had stories about benefit-seeking asylum seekers, we have had illegal immigrant stories. This has now moved on to the latest arrivals, which just happen to be eastern European. There are sections of society and the media which always set out to scapegoat migrant groups just because they are easy targets," he said. 
Leading figures in the Labour Party have insisted that there has to be a pause while the UK economy absorbs the estimated 600,000 migrant workers from the 10 countries that joined the EU in 2004. Views on immigration hardened when figures out last week showed unemployment at its highest level for six years and when it emerged the Government had seriously underestimated numbers from the last group of new member states. 
Some business leaders remain strong supporters of eastern European workers. Sir Digby Jones, the former director general of the Confederation of British Industry, said Poles had made a major contribution to the UK economy. " You cannot blame migrants if they are prepared to ... work for wages, which though they may seem low to us, are a lot higher than in their own country. They come here with the skills and the education that we no longer seem to be able to provide our own workforce," he said. 
Stephen Ratcliffe, a spokesman for the Major Contractors Group, which represents the 14 largest UK construction companies, said that far from wages falling, the shortage of skilled craftsmen was driving them up. " We would have faced serious capacity issues if the industry had not been able to source craft trades from eastern Europe," he said. 
The Tory spokesman on immigration, Damian Green, accused the Government of having tried to give the impression it was ready to take action to control migrant workers when that was not the case. "It's clear that at the heart of Government there is either confusion or dishonesty about this matter," he said. 
The headlines ... and the truth

HALT THE TIDE OF EU MIGRANTS ... HIV CHILDREN BRINGING TIMEBOMB TO BRITAIN - Sunday Express, 20/8 
Claim: Britain is confronted with an HIV time bomb when Romanian teenagers descend on our over-stretched health service. 
Reality: There are 15,850 Romanians with HIV/Aids, according to the UN. Two thirds were infected while living in children's state institutions during the late 1980s. The infection rate is 0.7 per cent of the population - slightly less than in the UK.

* EAST EUROPE MIGRANTS HELP TAKE JOBLESS TO SIX-YEAR HIGH - Daily Mail, 17/8 
Claim: Unemployment has soared to its highest level for more than six years as thousands of workers arrive from eastern Europe. 
Reality: While the unemployment rate rose last month, the number of people in work grew by 42,000 over the three months to March 2006 and by 240,000 over the year, to reach 28.94 million - the highest number of people in work since records began in 1971.

* MIGRANTS GET BRITS' PAY SLASHED BY 50 PER CENT - The Sun, 18/8 
Claim: Earnings of British builders and other manual workers have slumped by 50 per cent as a flood of east European migrants drives down wages. 
Reality: The annual growth rate in average earnings excluding bonuses, was 3.9 per cent in June 2006, up 0.1 per cent on the previous month. Including bonuses wages grew by 4.3 per cent, up 0.2 per cent on the previous month.

* UNCHECKED IMMIGRATION IS PUTTING BRITONS OUT OF WORK - Daily Telegraph, 18/8 
Claim: The unprecedented influx of newcomers has had an impact on the availability of social housing. 
Reality: The shortage of homes in Britain pre-dates the arrival of east European workers. Accession state workers do not qualify for council housing.

* CHEERS, WE'RE COMING TO RIP YOU OFF - People 20/8 
Claim: Mafia chiefs in Bulgaria are plotting to flood Britain with heroin, prostitutes and guns when they join the EU in January. 
Reality: The Centre for the Study of Democracy, a Sofia-based think-tank, found the crime rate in Bulgaria was lower than the European average with crime rates falling by half between 2001 and 2004. It is now safer than Denmark and Australia.

* HOW THE NEW FAGINS ARE BRINGING CHILD SLAVERY TO BRITAIN - Sunday Telegraph 4/6 
Claim: The UK is likely to surge up the league of favoured destinations for trafficked women and children once Romania and Bulgaria join the EU next year. 
Reality: The US State Department recently welcomed Bulgarian efforts to crack down on trafficking, offering witnesses protection and allowing suspects to be extradited to stand trial abroad. The number of trafficking convictions in Bulgarian courts increased nearly fivefold in 2005 - up to 34.

* NHS AND SCHOOLS 'AT RISK FROM SURGE IN EU IMMIGRANTS' - The Times 31/07 
Claim: A leaked government report warned that schools and hospitals will struggle to cope with an influx of people from eastern Europe. 
Reality: Immigrants make up 8 per cent of the workforce but contribute 10 per cent of the UK's GDP. Ernst & Young reports they are net tax contributors - rather than a burden - to the public purse, easing the pensions bill through tax and keeping interest rates at least 0.5 per cent lower - equivalent to ?500 a year on the average mortgage.

* IMMIGRANTS TO FLOOD IN - Daily Star 24/07 
Claim: Britain will be swamped by up to 145,000 poverty-stricken migrants from Bulgaria and Romania who are expected to flock here once they join the EU. 
Reality: Think-tank the IPPR estimates 56,000 will arrive from both countries in the first year - 41,000 of them from Romania. A Bulgarian government survey revealed only 2.9 per cent of its nationals planned to migrate.


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## Guest (Aug 29, 2006)

ttmonkey said:


> Think-tank the IPPR estimates 56,000 will arrive from both countries in the first year - 41,000 of them from Romania.


so thats about 700,000 in reality then :?


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

Not sure what it all means other than even higher house prices.


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## Guest (Aug 29, 2006)

tosh - that loo-sig is disgusting :twisted: :wink: bad curry last night?


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## TTonyTT (Apr 24, 2006)

ttmonkey said:


> Full list taken from the Evening Standard:
> 
> The headlines ... and the truth


Ahh, that'll be the "lies, damn lies, and statistics" version of the truth then.

We all know that statistics are NOT "the truth". As often as not, stats are used to hide the truth, depending on their definition, their usage, their explanation, their accuracy ... etc, etc, etc.

And why is it that we believe what one source may say, and repeat it (here) as being apparent factual truth ("reality"), whilst we simultaneously dismiss what another source publishes as being reactionary racism?

Using just a dash of common sense ...

*HALT THE TIDE OF EU MIGRANTS ... HIV CHILDREN BRINGING TIMEBOMB TO BRITAIN

I have no direct knowledge of HIV (gratefully). I make no comment.

* EAST EUROPE MIGRANTS HELP TAKE JOBLESS TO SIX-YEAR HIGH

Unemployment IS at its highest level for 6 years. Albeit with numbers in work also growing. However, the growth in the numbers in work is driven by immigrants, not pre-existing UK population.

*MIGRANTS GET BRITS' PAY SLASHED BY 50 PER CENT

Average pay rates have obviously fallen - the "reality" does not address the claim at all. One of the arguments for immigration is that the immigrants take the lower-paid unglamourous jobs that the UK workforce won't take.

*UNCHECKED IMMIGRATION IS PUTTING BRITONS OUT OF WORK

Continued immigration WILL put "britons out of work". The pattern of immigration has ALWAYS been the same - initially "they" take the low-paid, low-skilled jobs, with little disruption to the existing working population (because they don't want those jobs, and no longer have to do them if the immigrants take them). However, over time, immigrants too want to better their lifestyles (it's why they're here in the first place), so they will be looking for progression - which is where britons get nudged out of the jobs and into the unemployment figures. Each wave of immigration has the same effect.

*CHEERS, WE'RE COMING TO RIP YOU OFF

Of course some of the immigrants will have criminal intent and/or history. OR is it only the "nice people" who want to come here. What about all the Russian money now in the City? All fairly earned by hard-work and sweat alone? Mmmmmm.

*HOW THE NEW FAGINS ARE BRINGING CHILD SLAVERY TO BRITAIN

No knowledge (gratefully). No comment.

*IMMIGRANTS TO FLOOD IN 
"Flood" is an emotive term - which immediately prompts people to think and respond. Anyone would think the writer was in the publishing industry. But then who are the IPPR to generate any more accurate figures? The govt has not been shown to be too clever in its estimates of immigration in the recent past. I see no empirical reasons to agree with, or dispute, either version of this particular OPINION - note, that it's a view on possible future outcomes. Not a fact, can not be called a reality and can't (until it's too late) be proven or disproven.

My point?

Don't swallow whole (and regurgitate) anything that's published or opined just because you like the size of the newspaper page, or the mast at the top. Add a little common sense and think about the realities.


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## ttmonkey (Feb 28, 2005)

It's interesting that you feel that way Tony, the fact remains that using headlines like 'Flood of Immigrants' & 'HIV Timebomb' are designed to cause a severe reaction and in a lot of cases with no basis - such as the HIV story - the figures speak for themselves - Romania has a lower HIV rate than the UK, so to assume that we face an HIV epedemic IS scaremongering. You saying that you have no experience of HIV does not negate you logocally thinking about it and coming to the same conclusion.

You're happy to comment on other issues such as 'Migrants Get Brits Pay Slashes By 50 Percent' , but don't qualify what personal experience you have of this. I only say this as you refuse to comment on some issues that seems clear cut?

I will agree with you on the issue of believeing everything the papers report, the truth will no doubt be somewhere in the middle. There are ups & downs in all of this.


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## TTonyTT (Apr 24, 2006)

ttmonkey said:


> It's interesting that you feel that way Tony, the fact remains that using headlines like 'Flood of Immigrants' & 'HIV Timebomb' are designed to cause a severe reaction and in a lot of cases with no basis - such as the HIV story - the figures speak for themselves - Romania has a lower HIV rate than the UK, so to assume that we face an HIV epedemic IS scaremongering. You saying that you have no experience of HIV does not negate you logocally thinking about it and coming to the same conclusion.
> 
> You're happy to comment on other issues such as 'Migrants Get Brits Pay Slashes By 50 Percent' , but don't qualify what personal experience you have of this. I only say this as you refuse to comment on some issues that seems clear cut?
> 
> I will agree with you on the issue of believeing everything the papers report, the truth will no doubt be somewhere in the middle. There are ups & downs in all of this.


I should have been clearer. I agree with you that using terms such as "flood" is deliberately emotive which immediately pushes logic and reason a little further into the background. But the people using such terminology do so for a reason (to make exactly that high-profile impact and sell their papers / get their votes). Ditto "immigration timebomb".

Using emotive language is the easy option - appeal to people's emotions, ie heart rather than head (which is where some people do their thinking). That approach really doesn't help sensible debate.

Much the same way as the stigma of the BNP undermines any sense of UK national pride.

However, I'd also be way of dismissing the argument just because of its presentation, or the failings of its presenters.

You say _"the figures speak for themselves - Romania has a lower HIV rate than the UK, so to assume that we face an HIV epedemic IS scaremongering."_

If we are to believe "the figures", we have to assume that HIV detection in the 2 countries is performed to the same standard. That data is analysed, critiqued and published with the same rigour in both countries. In the UK, a child has some sort of reasonable chance of receiving HIV medication (FWIW), so a mother may ensure that this is received - step 1 being to ensure the infection is verified. Is medication similarly available in Romania? And what populations are being compared in the "ours is lower than yours" statement? What are the comparative death rates for "children" in the two populations?

I didn't comment on that "fact" because I don't have enough knowledge or understanding of the situation behind the fact, nor of the factors that are relevant in establishing a valid comparable measure. For the other comments, I have more knowledge and understanding. Not necessarily personal experience - I have not lost my job to a Polish immigrant. Yet.


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