# TT Forum excluded from TT launch



## s3_lurker (May 6, 2002)

>The TTF did request to attend the event in Berlin, but Audi AG and UK declined due to us not being Press and apparently for not representing the TT Enthusiast as a whole.

Payback for the Forum championing the duff dashpod affair


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## Jae (May 6, 2002)

Quite possibly.....

Jae


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## NUM_TT (Apr 5, 2004)

> not representing the >TT Enthusiast as a whole


Are they joking :?:


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## Jae (May 6, 2002)

nope....go figure....


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## Guest (Apr 6, 2006)

Did anyone from the TTOC get to go - didnt the TTOC win an award from Audi recently?!? Surely they couldnt turn them down aswell?! :evil:


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## P1ssed (Sep 14, 2005)

There are 2 ways that Audi could have looked upon the exposure that the dashpod problem received from various sources including this forum.

The first is a professional approach and thanking the people who brought it to their attention and then striving to address the concern and bringing it to a conclusion that would re-light the loyalty of the brands drivers.

The second is the schoolboy way and say... right you bastards.. you aint coming to my party.

They seem to have picked the latter... that is really sad


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## Johnwx (Oct 31, 2004)

P1ssed said:


> There are 2 ways that Audi could have looked upon the exposure that the dashpod problem received from various sources including this forum.
> 
> The first is a professional approach and thanking the people who brought it to their attention and then striving to address the concern and bringing it to a conclusion that would re-light the loyalty of the brands drivers.
> 
> ...


Its their party but at the end of the day we have the cash.............so where shall we spend it next time. They may have one the battle but lost the war :-*


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## Jae (May 6, 2002)

At the end of the day, people are still going to buy TTs and the TTF is still going to show info about the new TT, so its no real loss to them.

Shame, but hey ho. As for TTOC, I dont know.

Jae


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## Mysterio (Jan 20, 2006)

Jae, this forum is tremendous and a fantastic resource for all of the Community. Just wait - in 5 years they'll be trying to buy the Domain Name from you my friend :wink:


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

I am buying the tt2forum domain for all Mk2 pundits so they have a fresh forum to chat.

This will distance the older/classic forum members from the new/fresh look TT2 version of the TT.


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## tj (May 7, 2002)

You'd at least think they would acknowledge the loyalty of their hardcore enthusiasts and invite the TTOC to be represented at the MK11 launch. I also thought the UK was their biggest market in Europe. With regard to the dashpod and coil packs, that's a hole they dug for themselves without our help. Hey ho, loyalty cuts both ways.


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## TTej (Sep 10, 2003)

WOW only 15 mins left

time to go make that cup of tea!!!


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## mighTy Tee (Jul 10, 2002)

tj said:


> You'd at least think they would acknowledge the loyalty of their hardcore enthusiasts and invite the TTOC to be represented at the MK11 launch. I also thought the UK was their biggest market in Europe. With regard to the dashpod and coil packs, that's a hole they dug for themselves without our help. Hey ho, loyalty cuts both ways.


Do you mean they were not?

<note - this is a sarcastic comment and I have no knowledge of whether or not the TTOC was or was not invited>


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## poTTy (Jan 20, 2004)

Looking at the new Mk II they seem very adept at not involving their customers, so not inviting the TTOC figures...

...added to which the laughter when it was revealed would have drowned out the sorry sounding round of applause :lol:


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

I dont think all those speakers are press members, nor is the horse in the suit (i mean footballer). I think that was a big let down, was a political statement more than anything.

I wanted to see the car not big up germany or the world cup.

I am not happy to say the least.


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## Jae (May 6, 2002)

added to this was the preparation other forums were allowed, with the Press Release and images......TTF had nothing, nada, nichts....

All the content for the home page (which is an Audi Press Release) was scavenged from Fortitude. Audiworld had access to this, as too did Top Gear (who slag the TT). Their sites were ready for the launch....

Not really a position in which I thought the TTF would find itself in...

Guess we will find out soon why....who knows...

Jae


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## R6B TT (Feb 25, 2003)

Jae said:


> as too did Top Gear (who slag the TT). Their sites were ready for the launch....
> 
> Jae


No they're not - I just got an email from Top Gear, the link takes you to a March 28 page - and the TT pic pages don't exist yet.


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

Jae said:


> added to this was the preparation other forums were allowed, with the Press Release and images......TTF had nothing, nada, nichts....
> 
> All the content for the home page (which is an Audi Press Release) was scavenged from Fortitude. Audiworld had access to this, as too did Top Gear (who slag the TT). Their sites were ready for the launch....
> 
> ...


Oh, its almost certainly my fault. :? :roll:


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

Certainly a shame that no info ended up on here for the launch or on the TTOC website.

I wouldn't expect special treatment but equal would have been good.

Not only do Audi UK get a lot out of this forum and they've been watching it for years but on numerous occassions information has been supplied back to them after I was asked for the forums view. e.g. the Titanium pack etc, etc.

Audi UK may feel that it doesn't matter but all they have effectively done is add another bit of unhappiness to Audi owners. Maybe one day they'll realise that it's actually the punters who keep them in their jobs.

If they had an attitude like some of their competitors they could storm the UK and grow even quicker. What's happening now is many new people are trying Audis and learning about the crap service etc. In a few years so many people will have been burnt that their numbers will start to dry up....and then they'll pay consultants millions to find out why. All they hav to do now is change their attitude and open their eyes and ears because what Jo Public wants has been said many times on this forum.

Audi - Too cocky and self assurred.....for now.


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## stepneyjack (Sep 24, 2004)

*I think the ******** was lucky not to be invited....

Did you watch them crapping on and on about Germany being the home of football, and people wanting to come to the World Cup to see what Germany is like. Hmmm, that'll be right!

And then some embarrassing rock music and some footballers with 2004 Beckham haircuts. Oh dear - how naff it all was!

Still - could help if you're suffering from insomnia....

Why not a smooth and cool launch, instead of German Rock Music and bad hair... AND the Brandenberg Gate...*

WHAT would Billy Bragg say?


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

Just a thought....are we sure the TTOC wasn't invited? i.e. is Nutts over there? Strange he doesn't appear to be online on this big day.

Maybe a scoop for the mag...although it'll be old news by then. :?


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

scoTTy said:


> Just a thought....are we sure the TTOC wasn't invited? i.e. is Nutts over there? Strange he doesn't appear to be online on this big day.
> 
> Maybe a scoop for the mag...although it'll be old news by then. :?


Clive's in Berlin.

The TTOC were involved. The Forum wasn't.


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

Did I miss the posts or was it a secret ?


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

scoTTy said:


> Did I miss the posts or was it a secret ?


I presume it was a secret until today... I've no idea.

Shame the committee couldn't auction one of their tickets for charity or donate as a prize


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## TTej (Sep 10, 2003)

scoTTy said:


> Did I miss the posts or was it a secret ?


prob a secret but i do hope the TTOC do get somethign special. Maybe Clive gets a drive or hopefully they take his car in and use it as a blueprint for the next gen! (now that would be good, if only)


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## nutts (May 8, 2002)

Still up trying to upload some photos and stuff.

The TT Owners Club were invited to attend on behalf of TT owners. We were allocated 4 tickets to named representatives of the club. Jae knew we were going last week, but unfortunately there was nothing that could be done to get him a ticket. I have no knowledge of why.

I did meet some representatives of other Owners Clubs and they mentioned to me that forum's were not invited from their country's either... they said Audi had invited subscription based members clubs only. I have no way of knowing whether this is correct or not.

It wasn't a secret as such. I've just been bloody busy for the past few weeks with OC stuff and the proper job :wink:  I've actually nt posted much for the last couple of months.


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## genocidalduck (May 19, 2005)

nutts said:


> Still up trying to upload some photos and stuff.
> 
> The TT Owners Club were invited to attend on behalf of TT owners. We were allocated 4 tickets to named representatives of the club. Jae knew we were going last week, but unfortunately there was nothing that could be done to get him a ticket. I have no knowledge of why.
> 
> ...


So what does it look like in the flesh? Also had you seen it before the launch...Come on you can admit it now everyone has seen it :wink:


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## nutts (May 8, 2002)

Let's just say, it definitely looks great in the flesh 

and personally I'm glad Audi went for evolution than revolution. This is a car that anyone anywhere would recognise as a TT


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## genocidalduck (May 19, 2005)

nutts said:


> Let's just say, it definitely looks great in the flesh
> 
> and personally I'm glad Audi went for evolution than revolution. This is a car that anyone anywhere would recognise as a TT


I agree with you


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

nutts said:


> The TT Owners Club were invited to attend on behalf of TT owners. We were allocated 4 tickets to named representatives of the club. Jae knew we were going last week, but unfortunately there was nothing that could be done to get him a ticket. I have no knowledge of why.


My comments weren't about whether the forum was invited to the launch. Simply that it appears other sites had access to images/media the the TTF was denied.


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## Jae (May 6, 2002)

I accepted the reasoning behind the TTF not being invited, although it was a shame.

I knew the TTOC had tickets to go, but respected the fact they wanted to release that information - it was not for me to blow their cover (for whatever reason). Nutts did kindly ask Audi UK for the TTF (after the TTF had asked both the UK and AG).

The bit which Scotty quite rightly points out is the exclusion from the Press Release which other prominent TT sites had access to, and were able to prepare for, rather than scrabbling around for information.

Im awaiting a repsonse from Audi UK with regard to this.

Jae


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## aidb (Mar 19, 2003)

stepneyjack said:


> I think the ******** was lucky not to be invited....
> 
> Did you watch them crapping on and on about Germany being the home of football, and people wanting to come to the World Cup to see what Germany is like. Hmmm, that'll be right!
> 
> ...


It sounds as if all they needed was David Hasselhoff to complete the proceedings. :lol:

For those who didn't know about Davids important part in the fall of the Berlin Wall. :wink:
http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_860540.html


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## genocidalduck (May 19, 2005)

aidb said:


> stepneyjack said:
> 
> 
> > I think the ******** was lucky not to be invited....
> ...


He once moaned that they should put up a statue of him at the gate :? The guy is off his rocker


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

nutts said:


> It wasn't a secret as such. I've just been bloody busy for the past few weeks with OC stuff and the proper job :wink:  I've actually nt posted much for the last couple of months.


 :lol: Oh come on !! For the four people that went this must have been the biggest thing on their TT calendar for years.

To suggest you didn't have time to post about it is misleading. Just look as what posts have been made in the last few days/weeks and you're suggesting that it was a time issue that stopped you posting. :lol:

Give us some credit ! If you wanted to keep it as a surprise or secret then fine but don't try and suggest this wasn't the case.

It's a shame TTOC members didn't know in advance as then we may have been able to request you to look at certain things that perhaps you wouldn't have done otherwise.

I'm for example interested in the rear of the new car but I guess it's now down to luck whether anyone got pics of it. :?


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## R6B TT (Feb 25, 2003)

scoTTy said:


> It's a shame TTOC members didn't know in advance as then we may have been able to request you to look at certain things that perhaps you wouldn't have done otherwise.
> 
> I'm for example interested in the rear of the new car but I guess it's now down to luck whether anyone got pics of it. :?


ScoTTy - me too - I asked Clive to give the back of the TTC special scrutiny, he said he was going to see if he could wedge NuTTs in the back and take a photo


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

I just hope the ******** were given consideration etc. as if it wasn't for them, the TTOC would not exist or really have a platform to express themselves.

I know they have their own website & other stuff away from the ********, but the ******** was here 1st, has more members & is where the TTOC gets most of it's members.

Does appear it was fair play, but having been part of this forum since close to day one & a small part of the TTOC (for a very brief time), i'd have expected the ******** to take priority over the TTOC given it's membership/status.


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

scoTTy said:


> nutts said:
> 
> 
> > It wasn't a secret as such. I've just been bloody busy for the past few weeks with OC stuff and the proper job :wink:  I've actually nt posted much for the last couple of months.
> ...


Biggest thing on certain peoples calendar full stop :lol: :wink:


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## Jae (May 6, 2002)

Well, seems that the TT Forum is not of any particular concern to Audi.

In response to my question about why we had no information to prepare for the event, Audis stance was that there was an embargo on information and that, to quote.....

_"There are many journalists to whom we provide information, and to give preferential treatment to some would incur the wrath of others. "_

I then find in another thread the following innocent comment by Kell, posted today...



> I've seen a Price list brochure - but can't say too much about it yet until it's released to the public.
> 
> (We managed to get a sneak preview, so that we could get info for the magazine which goes to print today.)


Seems like Im either being misinformed, or that we are not held in the same vain as others.

Wrath, not quite so.....but narked, yes, quite a lot actually.

Jae


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## Jae (May 6, 2002)

Paul,

We were given no consideration to be honest.

All this is going to do is make the forum bigger, stronger and we will be heard.....that dashpod looks suspiciously similar to me....it had better work!!!

Give an exlcusive to an audience of less than 800 over an audience that was in excess of 5700 yesterday alone......go figure....

Jae


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

So TTOC has access to 4 tickets and two were used by Nutts and Clive...what about the other two?


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## t7 (Nov 2, 2002)

Myself and Richard (Leg).


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

Leg - How come leg went, hes been on the forum since january this year. hes hardly a long term forum member, Im not a happy fcukin bunny.
This should have been offered to other more established members.

Who got to pick who went? I'd like to know how and who pls and im sure others would too.


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## nutts (May 8, 2002)

Kevin

Richard is a full TTOC committee member and has been since Jan. He has put a huge amount of time into the running of the club since he joined the committee.


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

Mark, my point is from 'Jan', Others have been on here and memebers for a lot longer than that and should have had a chance to go.

Hes clearly said (and more than once) hes not interested in a MKII at all, other people on here are interested and it would have been good for them for that reason (and by 'them' im not hinting at me before its said by someone) to have gone with the TTOC.

I think the TTOC has missed a chance to give something back to its memebers. Sorry, but this is not aimed at you mark its just a general comment.

Thats only 'my' take on it and im not going to argue with anyone over this. Ive made my point clearly and that the end of it.


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## nutts (May 8, 2002)

They may have been members, but the list was compiled from TTOC committee members at Audi UK's request.

I'm not getting into a debate about why, because that decsion was Audi UK's and not ours, but it does appear from talking to the 2 x German OC's that no Euro forum's were present and we were hardly going to lie to Audi UK just to get someone along that wasn't a TTOC committee member.

If the members want to help run our club then they are welcome to... unfortunately some would prefer not to volunteer and that is fine and is their prerogative as members.

We have an outstanding committee position that has attracted zero interest...


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## Dotti (Mar 9, 2003)

Toshy does have a point in his above posts!

There are a few loyal members out there who were looking forward to the new mk 2 TT and have and put deposits down on them too with great enthusiasm.

A real shame they didn't have the opportunity to go along with yourselves to enjoy this event as loyal existing customers to Audi and of course loyal members to this forum.

Remember, this forum is what the people make it with informative debate and TT enthusiasm.


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## nutts (May 8, 2002)

That choice was not ours to make. If Audi UK could not find a ticket for Jae, then how would they be able to find a ticket for a forum member?

However people want to debate it, the choice as not ours to make. It was Audi UK's decision to want TTOC committee members. The same was the case for the 2 x German Owners Clubs represented... they were their committee members too.

Every person that went did a job... whilst it was enjoyable it was also bloody hard work and it needed all of us working till 5am over there and Kell & Graham working over here till some ungodly hour also to get the job done.


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## Jae (May 6, 2002)

This is not intended as a witch hunt on the TTOC, more a point being made to Audi UK.

The TTOC had tickets to distribute through its committee members, at the request of Audi UK. The people who went, went (albeit a little odd the people who did, but thats not whats being debated here).

Audi UK decided to completely exclude the TTF from anything to do with the TT MkII. Now if they were concerned about if images were going to be leaked, Nutts could have answered that question, if it were asked. I personally thought that the TTOC should have told either its members or TTF members they were going, but the Committee decided against that. I respected that decision, although I didnt particualrly agree with it, and did not tell anyone.

The funny thing would have been if my company in the UK still produced the TTOC magazine - we did the first 4 editions. How would that have worked then? Would Audi have given the TTOC the copy prior to the launch then, when they knew that the TTF would, in part, have access to the information?

The TTOC were priveleged to have access to both the event and to information that was not available to the TTF, as a condition of having this, they had to enforce an embargo. That's it.

The only common denominator in all this is Audi UK, and their decision not to interact with me to deliver news to a wider audience - their UK Customers (and EU to be fair), and rely on information coming in 3rd hand. Guess that some trust has been lost with the Dashpod issue. Should have rectified it earlier rather responding to Customer Pressure through a TV programme.

Bigger, better and stronger......that will be the new TTF coming soon....TTF Mk, well, MK IV!!

Jae


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## Carlos (May 6, 2002)

It's perfectly fair for the TTOC owners committee to go on the free jolly and keep it completely secret until after they've been, after all they put in thousands of hours er, stuffing envelopes.










It's at least two weeks since we had a proper TTOC witch hunt


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## genocidalduck (May 19, 2005)

I've got to agree with Tosh in reference to Leg. He's just picked up his first TT. He's admittted himself he is only keeping it a year, if that. Hardly what would be called a TT enthusiast. Esp since hes done nothing but slag off the MKII. Also has a tendency to rub alot of people up the wrong way. I don't think Toshiba is saying he should have been offered a ticket. And im not saying i should have. But someone that has abit more passion for the car. Than just a passing fad. I can think of half dozen people off the top of my head that deserved to have gone or at least offered that chance, that do work hard for the TTOC.

This could have been avoided also if the TTOC were abit more forthcoming about the trip to Germany. There are other things that i think the committee could do better. I won't say no more as there are people in the TTOC that do work for the club as a whole and not just for their own benefit.


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## NaughTTy (Jul 9, 2003)

genocidalduck said:


> I've got to agree with Tosh in reference to Leg. He's just picked up his first TT. He's admittted himself he is only keeping it a year, if that. Hardly what would be called a TT enthusiast. Esp since hes done nothing but slag off the MKII. Also has a tendency to rub alot of people up the wrong way. I don't think Toshiba is saying he should have been offered a ticket. And im not saying i should have. But someone that has abit more passion for the car. Than just a passing fad. I can think of half dozen people off the top of my head that deserved to have gone or at least offered that chance, that do work hard for the TTOC.
> .......


It's actually his second TT Jamie....but I agree with you on the rest of it :wink:


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## genocidalduck (May 19, 2005)

I stand corrected...Still doesnt change my opinion. 

Oh thats seven people of the top of my head now :wink:


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

genocidalduck said:


> I've got to agree with Tosh in reference to Leg. He's just picked up his first TT. He's admittted himself he is only keeping it a year, if that. Hardly what would be called a TT enthusiast. Esp since hes done nothing but slag off the MKII. Also has a tendency to rub alot of people up the wrong way. I don't think Toshiba is saying he should have been offered a ticket. And im not saying i should have. But someone that has abit more passion for the car. Than just a passing fad. I can think of half dozen people off the top of my head that deserved to have gone or at least offered that chance, that do work hard for the TTOC.
> 
> This could have been avoided also if the TTOC were abit more forthcoming about the trip to Germany. There are other things that i think the committee could do better. I won't say no more as there are people in the TTOC that do work for the club as a whole and not just for their own benefit.


Especially if, as seems to have been the case, the tickets were actually sorted out some time ago, not the week before...

Certainly there was time to vote Jae into a non-executive capacity on the board of the TTOC... :?


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## genocidalduck (May 19, 2005)

jampott said:


> genocidalduck said:
> 
> 
> > I've got to agree with Tosh in reference to Leg. He's just picked up his first TT. He's admittted himself he is only keeping it a year, if that. Hardly what would be called a TT enthusiast. Esp since hes done nothing but slag off the MKII. Also has a tendency to rub alot of people up the wrong way. I don't think Toshiba is saying he should have been offered a ticket. And im not saying i should have. But someone that has abit more passion for the car. Than just a passing fad. I can think of half dozen people off the top of my head that deserved to have gone or at least offered that chance, that do work hard for the TTOC.
> ...


Couldnt agree more.


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## NaughTTy (Jul 9, 2003)

genocidalduck said:


> I stand corrected...Still doesnt change my opinion.


Mine neither :wink:



genocidalduck said:


> Oh thats seven people of the top of my head now :wink:


  :-*


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## kmpowell (May 6, 2002)

Out of *ALL* your committee members Leg went!, FFS, this gets more and more ridiculous as it goes on! I've kept quiet so far, but can keep it in no more.

Before I go any further, I just want to say that I agree a witch hunt will do nobody any good, but something needs to be said, so these views are mine alone and not the TTF's.

I have been working side by side with Jae on this one for the past few weeks, so I have seen pretty much every email exchanged between himself, Audi AG, Audi UK, you etc, and things are not certainly adding up.

Putting everything into context the TTF have been excluded from *EVERYTHING*. Now, we can go into the why's, what's, who's and when's of it all but as Jae has pointed out (and many others), things don't add up and it 'seems' to be pointing in the direction of the TTOC to the hypocrisy.

Mark, as the Chairman of the TTOC I think you need to come down to earth a bit and remember what the TTF is. Without it you would have **** all. The TTF is your platform, the place that you get your members from (and don't give me that rubbish about it being a small proportion to your member base, we both know it isn't) and the place that you get to organise all your events, push your goods, advertise your wares etc etc etc, basically the backbone of your club. All this for *FREE!*

You need to appreciate more how big this forum is and what a platform you have. Go to google.co.uk and type in 'TTOC' and read the ranking results, then try 'Mark 2 TT' and also read the results. The TTF has millions of page impressions a week and itâ€™s bespoke coding is the only thing that keeps the traffic and forum up and running on a daily basis.

Believe it or not but the TTF want to work *WITH* the TTOC, but this kind of resistance and attitude is doing nothing but getting peoples (and not just the TTF's by the looks of it!) backs up.

All in *MY* opinion.
Kevin


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## Carlos (May 6, 2002)

jampott said:


> Certainly there was time to vote Jae into a non-executive capacity on the board of the TTOC... :?


Quite. There wouldn't *be* a TTOC if it wasn't for this website.


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## Carlos (May 6, 2002)

kmpowell said:


> Before I go any further, I just want to say that I agree a witch hunt will do nobody any good


Well, it would entertain n'er-do-goods like me


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## genocidalduck (May 19, 2005)

I tend to agree with KMP(For once)..But there is one line in there. That rings so so true.


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## jam225 (Jun 24, 2003)

Well said Kev


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## genocidalduck (May 19, 2005)

NaughTTy said:


> genocidalduck said:
> 
> 
> > I stand corrected...Still doesnt change my opinion.
> ...


Actually you was in the original half dozen. Lets face it ive not been to a meet (other than the LEEK meets :x ) where you havnt put in an apperance, waving the TTOC flag. Organise a regular meet now, and other TTOC events.


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

Guys, just be happy for Mark. Both him AND his girlfriend got tickets. :lol:


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## NaughTTy (Jul 9, 2003)

genocidalduck said:


> NaughTTy said:
> 
> 
> > genocidalduck said:
> ...


Oh stop  .... and proof reading, don't forget proof reading :wink: :lol::roll:

Mind you I still don't work anywhere near as hard as some....


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## genocidalduck (May 19, 2005)

NaughTTy said:


> genocidalduck said:
> 
> 
> > NaughTTy said:
> ...


I mgiht have said you was in the original half dozen i could think off. But that doesnt mean you was top


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## The Silver Surfer (May 14, 2002)

NaughTTy said:


> genocidalduck said:
> 
> 
> > I've got to agree with Tosh in reference to Leg. He's just picked up his first TT. He's admitted himself he is only keeping it a year, if that. Hardly what would be called a TT enthusiast. Esp since hes done nothing but slag off the MKII. Also has a tendency to rub alot of people up the wrong way. I don't think Toshiba is saying he should have been offered a ticket. And im not saying i should have. But someone that has abit more passion for the car. Than just a passing fad. I can think of half dozen people off the top of my head that deserved to have gone or at least offered that chance, that do work hard for the TTOC.
> ...


This is in no way a personal attack on Leg or anyone else for that matter. If Leg clearly, by his own admission, has no interest in the MK2, then WTF was he doing at the MK2 launch? :?

I suppose you're going to tell us next that you couldn't find anyone else to go? :lol: :wink:


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## Karcsi (Mar 6, 2003)

From an ignoramus's point of view, I didn't realise until yesterday (after 3 years as a TTF user) that the TTOC and the forum were completely separate! Sorry, but it defies logic that it should be.

Without the forum, I would have no idea that there was a TTOC - I had not come across the TTOC website until yesterday.

There may be a reason why the TTF was sidelined by Audi AG, while the TTOC was fully entertained - perhaps it has something to do with the dashpod issue and Audi said, either the TTF is kept completely out of it or the TTOC gets nothing. Whatever the reason, the TTF deserves better - whether it is a full explanation, or being shown a little more loyalty / respect.


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

I think it positively VITAL that the webadmin attends the launch of new cars, honestly I do. I can't imagine what the fuss is all about!


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## genocidalduck (May 19, 2005)

Maybe im just still abit bitter after i got information about the launch date of the MKII. Which was the first week in April. I asked Mark if he knew anything about it and his reply was something like. I can guarantee you 100% that it isnt true :x


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## Carlos (May 6, 2002)

jampott said:


> I think it positively VITAL that the webadmin attends the launch of new cars, honestly I do. I can't imagine what the fuss is all about!


No, it's much more important that a jonny-come-lately who has no intention of buying a Mk 2 attends. Can't you see that? :lol:

Napoleon (oink oink) needs to put down the envelope gum and provide a full explanation :roll:


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

I'm also interested to know which committee members, particularly the ones that visited the launch actually OWN a TT. :lol:

Do the numbers add up?

Mark has one.
Leg has one.
Clive has one.

Still got yours, Lou? :-*


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## IanWest (May 7, 2002)

nutts said:


> It wasn't a secret as such. I've just been bloody busy for the past few weeks with OC stuff and the proper job :wink:  I've actually nt posted much for the last couple of months.


If I was a member of the TTOC, I would instantly call for you to stand down (although you will probably threaten to resign again as several times previously)-you really expect to make a statement like that and expect it to be believed. So let me get this right- none of the four of you had the chance to post and say that you were going. Why not just say, we wanted to keep it a secret- at least it would be the truth.
It is always a danger to forget why you are in a position- maybe an email to the members of the OC would have been in order even if you didn't want the forum to know. Technically the minutes of committee meetings should be made available to members so it would be interesting to see them from the particular meeting where you decided who was going and whether to make it public or not.

I think you are in danger of becoming a puppet to Audi UK for fear of losing your freebies. I assume you, as in the OC decided not to be too vocal in the dashpod issue in case it upset someone high up at Audi. Seemed to have paid off because it got you the invites!

Surely, Jae should either have been made an honorary committee member when the OC was set up or at the very least, you could have called an emergency committee meeting as soon as Audi UK advised you of the launch and made him a member.

If I was Jae, I would remove the OC from the forum but clearly he is above that- just remember that the TTF is one of the reasons that the OC is here in the first place.


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## genocidalduck (May 19, 2005)

Karcsi said:


> From an ignoramus's point of view, I didn't realise until yesterday (after 3 years as a TTF user) that the TTOC and the forum were completely separate! Sorry, but it defies logic that it should be.
> 
> Without the forum, I would have no idea that there was a TTOC - I had not come across the TTOC website until yesterday.
> 
> There may be a reason why the TTF was sidelined by Audi AG, while the TTOC was fully entertained - perhaps it has something to do with the dashpod issue and Audi said, either the TTF is kept completely out of it or the TTOC gets nothing. Whatever the reason, the TTF deserves better - whether it is a full explanation, or being shown a little more loyalty / respect.


Yesi found the Forum first. Also i think a vast majority of people do. Everytime a newbie posts. You can always count on one of us telling them to join the TTOC. You always get a reply from them either saying that they will or whats the TTOC. Never seen a single reply that has said that they already have.


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

IanWest said:


> nutts said:
> 
> 
> > It wasn't a secret as such. I've just been bloody busy for the past few weeks with OC stuff and the proper job :wink:  I've actually nt posted much for the last couple of months.
> ...


Spot on.

The TTOC should be run for the benefit of its members. Not the committee itself.


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## Carlos (May 6, 2002)

IanWest said:


> nutts said:
> 
> 
> > It wasn't a secret as such. I've just been bloody busy for the past few weeks with OC stuff and the proper job :wink:  I've actually nt posted much for the last couple of months.
> ...


 [smiley=cheers.gif]


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## genocidalduck (May 19, 2005)

> I think you are in danger of becoming a puppet to Audi UK for fear of losing your freebies. I assume you, as in the OC decided not to be too vocal in the dashpod issue in case it upset someone high up at Audi. Seemed to have paid off because it got you the invites!


I remember when the Watchdog thing had happened and the Forum got a result out of it. Mark posted that it was a shame it had to come to this. As the TTOC and Audi had worked something out and would have been in the next copy of absolutte. Not an exact quote but along those lines. Read into what you will. But it raised my eyebrow. No doubt a feew others.


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## Jae (May 6, 2002)

There is no way that I will remove what the TTOC has, unless otherwise requested by them. The TTF supported MKI and MKII and will continue to do so.

As far as the Dashpod.....it no good working behind the scenes on something and let another campaign go on.....I was aware, after the fact, that Mark was working something with Audi. No good after the fact, things could have taken a different direction had we known about it....simple as that.

Remember, this is no witch hunt ok!!

Jae


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## kmpowell (May 6, 2002)

Jae said:


> As far as the Dashpod.....it no good working behind the scenes on something and let another campaign go on.....I was aware, after the fact, that Mark was working something with Audi. No good after the fact, things could have taken a different direction had we known about it....simple as that.


Well as the originator of the dashpod campign, this is the first I have heard of it in all the 3 years i had it running!! :? As Jae said, if I had known about it, perhaps things could have been done differently.

Once again, it is another thing that backs up my views on Page 6 of this thread.

A real shame.


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## genocidalduck (May 19, 2005)

Carlos said:


> IanWest said:
> 
> 
> > nutts said:
> ...


With reference to the opening statement on the post above. I don't want to see Mark step down. This isnt why im kicking up a fuss. More the fact that the TTOC committee needs to change it's attitude towards it's members. Without the members there is no club. We pay our membership to the club. so we are part of the club. We are not here as employees and dont want to be treated as such. We dont just pay our membership in the hope we get little bits of info. If thats the case i would just ask my dealer. Reason i joined the club was to find out more about the TT. I still find out more correct information from my dealer than i do from the OC. And when i posted about the launch date. I had Mark telling me it was wrong. :roll: . Hopefully Mark wont spit his dummy out and resign. More i hope the case is he will learn from this and correct the issues that have been raised and keep the members of the TTOC in the loop from now on.


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## Carlos (May 6, 2002)

I don't care who resigns, I'm not a member. I'm more interested in why, on the face of it, the TTOC committee seem to like feathering their own nests at the expense of one particular person, without whom they wouldn't have their lofty positions and access to freeloading jollies.

This dashpod issue also seems to smell a bit.

Who handles PR for the TTOC?


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## renton72 (Feb 17, 2004)

Carlos said:


> Who handles PR for the TTOC?


No one i would imagine after just reading this thread in its entirety. :lol:


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## genocidalduck (May 19, 2005)

renton72 said:


> Carlos said:
> 
> 
> > Who handles PR for the TTOC?
> ...


 :lol: Maybe i should have applied....I may have been in with a chance of a all expences paid trip to Germany courtesy of the TTOC


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## renton72 (Feb 17, 2004)

genocidalduck said:


> :lol: Maybe i should have applied....I may have been in with a chance of a all expences paid trip to Germany courtesy of the TTOC


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## Jae (May 6, 2002)

Im not asking for anything from the TTOC for me, its about the TTF and its members, of whom the TTOC Committee are.

There is huge scope for the way forward for the TTF and TTOC, and as far as the TTF is concerned, its not constrained by the boarders of the UK.

The TTOC produces an excellent quarterly magazine, and the events it's held in the past have been excellent, with some good exclusives. Compared to the first encarnation of the TTOC run by Russell, the presentation is superb, but the link to the TTF has become a little muddied.

Currently there is a position going at the TTOC for Marketing Secretary, which Nutts referred to before. I considered applying for it, but to be honest, living in Munich has it's benefits and pitfalls.

I have ideas (both my own and views expressed by the TTF members) about how the TTOC can evolve, all geared towards its members and getting more members signed up, but those will be discussed with the TTOC at a later date.

There are lessons to be learnt on both sides from this, from which I hope the members of both the TTF and the TTOC can benefit from.

The TTF is about its membership, the TTOC is for its membership.

Jae


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## genocidalduck (May 19, 2005)

> Im not asking for anything from the TTOC for me, its about the TTF and its members, of whom the TTOC Committee are.


I think the fact is that you shouldnt have to ask. With the time and effort youve put in not just for the forum but for the OC directly and indirectly. The TTOC has alot to thank you for.


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

If Audi has issues with Jae and didn't want him in the show, then the TTOC couldn't do anything about it.

The problem could be that they (perhaps) don't trust that Jae can keep things in confidence or just simply because of previous problems (dashpod exposure etc) that didn't help in building a good relationship. We don't really know why.

If Leg is a committee member he was entitled to go. If anyone else wanted to be in a similar situation he/she could have bee in the committee as well, volunteering their time to run the club.

If Lou has a TT today it is NOT important as she is still a committee member. Unless there is a rule that says:"In order to be a committee member you MUST drive a TT".

Having said that, it is sad that Jae wasn't able to attend, as I 100% believe, as others as well, that without the TTF, TTOC wouldn't exist or would be a very small club.


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## genocidalduck (May 19, 2005)

vlastan said:


> If Lou has a TT today it is NOT important as she is still a committee member. Unless there is a rule that says:"In order to be a committee member you MUST drive a TT".
> 
> .


Yes you MUST own one.


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

genocidalduck said:


> vlastan said:
> 
> 
> > If Lou has a TT today it is NOT important as she is still a committee member. Unless there is a rule that says:"In order to be a committee member you MUST drive a TT".
> ...


    

She must be shot down then!!

This also explains why the whole visit was kept secret, so people wouldn't be able to question who is attending. This is ridiculous.


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## genocidalduck (May 19, 2005)

vlastan said:


> genocidalduck said:
> 
> 
> > vlastan said:
> ...


Even though you must own one. I don't have a problem with Lou going. She puts in alot of time for the club and from what i understand fills in when positions are vacant on the committee. She is a top lady, very nice helpful etc. She also hasnt slated the MKII off in just about every post concerning it.


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## MikeyG (Sep 17, 2005)

As a relatively new owner, TTOC member and forum denizen, I thought I'd jot down my views, having read all the posts so far on this thread. Usual 'IMHO and happy to be corrected' caveats - plus I have no vested interests or loyalties towards anyone here ....

There seem to be two distinct issues under debate here:

1. Why was the TTF not invited to the launch :?:

a) This is easily answered by the fact that Audi were apparently ONLY inviting owners' clubs; clear-cut; no-one here had any choice on that it seems.

b) The secondary question is then one of why Jae could not have been co-opted onto the TTOC committee in time to use one of the tickets. No-one's answered that yet.

2. How were the people who DID go to Berlin chosen :?:

a) Under Audi's terms, it could only be TTOC committee members: so that restricts it to those people who have the requisite skills to do the *job*, and also the time to go to Berlin for the evening; I could be wrong here, but that's probably a relatively small number. 'Debating' Audi's rules, and blaming various people for behaving within them, is surely not reasonable or constructive?

b) The point which has not been made here, other than obliquely by Nutts, is that going on press launches is not, or should not be _primarily_, a jolly! I've attended several press launches in a number of different capacities, and it's [often!] hard work. If it so happens that the attendees have the necessary skills and knowledge to both do the job *and* enjoy themselves (the jolly bit!), then great, but the prime objective has to be, in this instance, to fulfil a role and report back (to the TTOC, via AbsoluTTe, I presume) on the event. I presume that each of the TTOC attendees had a specific role to fulfil, the abilities required to do it, and that they weren't there purely for fun (I could be wrong, obviously!!!). As a TTOC member, if I'd been asked, I'd have wanted people to go who would do a good job in gathering information; if they were likely to enjoy themselves too, that's great, but it's not the primary point and it shouldn't primarily be a reward.

So far as I'm concerned, the mistakes made by the TTOC would appear to be:

- *Lack of transparency* in what was done. i.e. it's unclear, to me at least, why they could not have revealed both the names of the attendees and the choice of who went, to the forum, in advance).

- The big mistake, which could have avoided all this 'debate', seems to be missing out on the *obvious ploy of co-opting Jae*; definitely missed a trick there :-(

Both the above are *remarkably easy and obvious* points to make in hindsight ...

Once again, all IMHO and purely in the interests of some attempt at clarity regarding the issues here!

Mike


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

Good post Mike. I also think the key thing is lack of transparency and actually it's getting close to actually deliberatly misleading people.

With regards Lou on the committee - she does a hell of a lot of work and as such I have no issues at all her going or being on the committee. I think the TT ownership rule has always been crazy and this hightlights it.

People also need to be aware when hurling mud at those that went that we have no idea whether it was fully expensed or whether they funded it themselves. Would opinions change it if turns out that all Audi UK got them was passes?

I also have no issue with Leg going if he's been judged one of the top four hardest working committee members. To me it doesn't matter on his opinions (or even what car someone owns) if they are putting in their own time and effort into the TTOC for the benefit of all the members.

Transparency is key and unless you have it the risk is people will always think there's something underhand going on.

With regards the TTF not getting any information, since it appears (and I'm ready to be corrected) that the TTOC did have some info earlier then this could have been posted on this forum by a committee member who's not in Berlin. In fact even now, hours later the information isn't posted because the TTOC are keeping it for there "exclusive" in the mag.

This is what riles me as this was explicitly committed to that this wouldn't happen.

Who's best interest is it in sitting on the info? Members - no coz those on line could have benefitted. Those not online wouldn't have been worse off than they are now.

By trying to be clever, secretive, self important etc the TTOC have missed an opportunity. They could have put all their info on their site and linked to it from far and wide. This would have attracted more attention to the TTOC and potentially more members.

As it is the 'exclusive' runs the risk of being out of date as soon as it arrives due to most of the info now being on line sourced from others places.

This shouldn't be a witch hunt but a post mortem should be undertaken so that lessons should be learnt.


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## dj c225 (Nov 3, 2004)

I think the TTOC made a mistake here...

I only ever heard about you via the this forum, where you get sh1t loads of free advertising courtesy of Jae.

He has put in a lot of hard work, the least you guys could have done was invite him? why was leg invited?

Maybe its time the TTOC had some competition, no reason why the TTOC should be the only TT owners club... given me some good ideas, I can see a lot of the TTOC's mistakes especially with the employment structure and the way you advertise (or don't), you guys seem to think it is more important to hand out name tags and top heavy positions then actually crack on and do some promotion, advertising etc.

As for the dashpod issue, I doubt the TTOC and Audi would have got the same results as the forum and watchdog... again well done to all the members that got involved, made complaints etc.

This is not the first time I have heard such negative comments about the TTOC (recall TTotals thread a few weeks back), think you guys need to smarten up your act.


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

dj c225 said:


> Maybe its time the TTOC had some competition, no reason why the TTOC should be the only TT owners club... given me some good ideas, I can see a lot of the TTOC's mistakes especially with the employment structure and the way you advertise (or don't), you guys seem to think it is more important to hand out name tags and top heavy positions then actually crack on and do some promotion, advertising etc.


Since they're always appealing for help and support and still have a vacancy on the committee I'd like to see someone else start a club and it do so well. I think you really under estimate the amount of time, money (yes out of their own pocket) the spend and the dedication all those involved with the TTOC.

To make the above post you really have no idea of what's involved!


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## jonah (Aug 17, 2002)

FFS
How old are you lot! You're all acting like kids and throwing your dummies out :? No matter who went to see the launch the same people would be complaining and saying i should of gone cause I'm buying one etc etc.
The people that went were committee members at Audi's request Nutts tried to get an invite for Jae but Audi refused end of! WHICH BIT DON'T YOU ALL UNDERSTAND?

You all have to remember that the TTOC have to protect the relationship they have with Audi just like scotty used to have to and to do what some suggested could jeopardise this relationship and then all the TTOC members would loose out. You could say the TTOC wouldn't exist without the Forum and that's probably true but the two work well together.

I really can't believe some of these comments from TTOC members and Forum members especially as most seem well educated people but at the end of the day are just spoilt stuck up adults who have chosen to throw their toys out of their prams because they didn't get an invite.


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## jonah (Aug 17, 2002)

genocidalduck said:


> > Im not asking for anything from the TTOC for me, its about the TTF and its members, of whom the TTOC Committee are.
> 
> 
> I think the fact is that you shouldnt have to ask. With the time and effort youve put in not just for the forum but for the OC directly and indirectly. The TTOC has alot to thank you for.


Stop sucking up :wink:

I'm sure Jae doesn't do too badly from this site :wink:

And have you not read all these posts as your missing the point it was Audi not the TTOC giving the invites out, Nutts tried and failed to get Jae and invite FFS :roll:


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## genocidalduck (May 19, 2005)

jonah said:


> genocidalduck said:
> 
> 
> > > Im not asking for anything from the TTOC for me, its about the TTF and its members, of whom the TTOC Committee are.
> ...


 :lol: Why would i suck up. Its just my opinion. I doubt very much Audi asked for a list of committee members then selected the names from it. They may have said its just open to the committee members. Which if thats the case why not reward smeone that has put the time and effort into the club over the years. Jae has done that. Yes Jae does ok from the site. But that doesnt mean anything. It's not just aimed at Jae going i can think off alot of reps that could have and would have gone that would have been nice to reward them. Did i want to go? Ofcourse i would have wanted to go. However i dont think i in anyway would have deserved to. I'm not a rep or anything else to do with the TTOC. But others are that have been flying the flag for the OC for a fw years.

Then it comes down to the fact that i doubt very much Audi told those invited they hadt to keep it quiet until after the event. Thats crap. They would have be allowed to mention it as soon as the launch date was announced. But someone on the OC thought they were far to important to let the rest of us paying members know. Like i said in a previous thread. I'm not a employee of the TTOC on a need to know bases. I'm a payed up member that expects to know any information as soon as the OC have it and subject to rules layed down by Audi on them releasing the information.

Also as Scotty has said there is no point the OC sitting on it. So they can do an exclusive. Because anyone with a computer and internet access can get the information. By next week anyone interested in the MKII would have found out everything they need to know about the MKII. Which then makes the article in Absolutte pointless.


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## dj c225 (Nov 3, 2004)

scoTTy said:


> dj c225 said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe its time the TTOC had some competition, no reason why the TTOC should be the only TT owners club... given me some good ideas, I can see a lot of the TTOC's mistakes especially with the employment structure and the way you advertise (or don't), you guys seem to think it is more important to hand out name tags and top heavy positions then actually crack on and do some promotion, advertising etc.
> ...


What a load of crap, anything can be done with a bit of effort.

I started my first business at the age of 16, I didn't do too badly once selling up, I think I know whats involved


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## jonah (Aug 17, 2002)

> Then it comes down to the fact that i doubt very much Audi told those invited they hadt to keep it quiet until after the event.
> 
> Then it comes down to the fact that i doubt very much Audi told those invited they hadt to keep it quiet until after the event.


Probably not but the TTOC have duty to all TTOC members and info is released via the quartly mag, not all members although i accept the majority are memebers here.



> It's not just aimed at Jae going i can think off alot of reps that could have and would have gone that would have been nice to reward them.


Your issue seems to be with Leg going, from what I've herard he has put alot of his time more than most into the TTOC so why not reward him and from whats been said it wasn't just a jolly



> Because anyone with a computer and internet access can get the information. By next week anyone interested in the MKII would have found out everything they need to know about the MKII.


Exactly so why are you complaining :roll:


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## genocidalduck (May 19, 2005)

jonah said:


> > Then it comes down to the fact that i doubt very much Audi told those invited they hadt to keep it quiet until after the event.
> >
> > Then it comes down to the fact that i doubt very much Audi told those invited they hadt to keep it quiet until after the event.
> 
> ...


Yes if the magazine was a monthly magazine but it isnt. Whats hte point of releasing a article where every mag/forum has beaten you to it. Like Scotty said they should have put it up on the TTOC website then linked it. Makes perfect sense.

Yes i do have a issue with Leg going. He may have worked really hard since January. But since January. 3 months. I know reps that have travel miles for years to make meets and events a success and helped the OC. I think they should have been considered along with Jae first. Leg has commented time and time again he has no interest in the MKII and slated all the spyshots etc. If Jae couldnt go because of the dashpod then Leg shouldnt have been able to go for slagging off another Audi pruduct. Afterall it was down to Audi who went. Maybe the OC were to busy to tell them that. :roll: :wink: 

Lastly because i want to see the TTOC become bigger. More successful but some of their decisions are just crazy.


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## jonah (Aug 17, 2002)

Your still missing the point :?

The were no representatives from any "FORUMS" at the launch

If the TTOC had done as you and some others suggested it could of been very detrimental to a lot of forthcoming events i would imagine :?


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

jonah said:


> Your still missing the point :?
> 
> The were no representatives from any "FORUMS" at the launch
> 
> If the TTOC had done as you and some others suggested it could of been very detrimental to a lot of forthcoming events i would imagine :?


And you missed TWO letters after the first "the". :wink:

What happened to other forums is NOT important. TTOC depends on the TTF to be big and succesful. Other forum may NOT.


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## genocidalduck (May 19, 2005)

jonah said:


> Your still missing the point :?
> 
> The were no representatives from any "FORUMS" at the launch
> 
> If the TTOC had done as you and some others suggested it could of been very detrimental to a lot of forthcoming events i would imagine :?


But that doesnt matter. Jae could have been put on the committee. Whos to know. It wouldnt be like Audi would be upset if the information appeared on the site. It appeared on other websites all over the place straight after the event.


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## jonah (Aug 17, 2002)

:roll:


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## jam225 (Jun 24, 2003)

Man this thread sucks  It seem very strange that Leg is not coming forward to defend his corner though :?


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## renton72 (Feb 17, 2004)

jam225 said:


> Man this thread sucks  It seem very strange that Leg is not coming forward to defend his corner though :?


Hes probably out washing his car.


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## Dotti (Mar 9, 2003)

Yes probably and its pissing down with rain now :lol:


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## Karcsi (Mar 6, 2003)

jam225 said:


> Man this thread sucks  It seem very strange that Leg is not coming forward to defend his corner though :?


Why should Leg have to? As far as I can see, the issue is about how the TTOC appears to make some of its decisions, behind closed doors, without the involvement of the TTF, despite its vital influence in the TTOC's continuing success.

It could be said (and have been) that some decisions may have been made better in this instance. But that's secondary to - but being questioned as a direct result of - the core issue, that those outside of the TTOC committee members seem to know next to nothing about how those decisions were made.

One conclusion is obvious - the TTF should be represented on the TTOC committee in future. That's just common sense.


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

dj c225 said:


> scoTTy said:
> 
> 
> > dj c225 said:
> ...


 :roll: Are you saying you could do better than the TTOC on your own? I say on your own because as you've identified the key this is effort and trying to get people to put some in.

It's easy telling people how to do things on a forum when you're not doing it ain't it. :roll:


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## genocidalduck (May 19, 2005)

Despite my rantings today...I'm in no way suggesting that another OC is started. Also in no way suggesting that anyone should resign/step down whatever. Just not happy with some aspects.


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

genocidalduck said:


> Despite my rantings today...I'm in no way suggesting that another OC is started. Also in no way suggesting that anyone should resign/step down whatever. Just not happy with some aspects.


Exactly. I think things have gone wrong and they need to be addressed. No more and no less.


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

I dont think any of the people who have openly said they wanted a mkII have even suggested they should have gone, not Leg so im not sure where that comment has come from.

For my part i simply said TTOC members with a lot of time in (dont forget the reps put in loads of time sorting out events/meets etc) maybe should have had a chance to go, not a newbie. Also it would have been nice if we could have made requests for information pictures/shots of the car to be taken during the trip.

I dont think it matters who paid for it and i dont care either way, if its was free cool, if it wasnt so be it.


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## dj c225 (Nov 3, 2004)

scoTTy said:


> :roll: Are you saying you could do better than the TTOC on your own? I say on your own because as you've identified the key this is effort and trying to get people to put some in.
> 
> It's easy telling people how to do things on a forum when you're not doing it ain't it. :roll:


Can see that your employee and not an employer. All the best.


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

What you're not gonna stand up and prove your point?!?! What a shocker 

A fine example of an internet posting. :lol:


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## dj c225 (Nov 3, 2004)

scoTTy said:


> What you're not gonna stand up and prove your point?!?! What a shocker
> 
> A fine example of an internet posting. :lol:


Oh yeah I am going to start a TT owners club, one man band... maybe I should be more like you and give up at the first hurdle or play it 'safe'.


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## genocidalduck (May 19, 2005)

Scotty has good reason to play it safe...Doesnt make him any less of a person.


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

Not sure where you get that from? Instead of giving up and walking away or posting on a forum that I can do it better (but when push comes to the shove don't) I've contributed to the TTOC since it's inception.

You post about giving up at the first hurdle demonstrates that you're posting crap.

You stood up, said you could do it better and then you run away from it. Who's the one giving up and walking away? :roll:


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## dj c225 (Nov 3, 2004)

genocidalduck said:


> Scotty has good reason to play it safe...Doesnt make him any less of a person.


Never said he did, but his brain doesn't work like others...


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## genocidalduck (May 19, 2005)

dj c225 said:


> genocidalduck said:
> 
> 
> > Scotty has good reason to play it safe...Doesnt make him any less of a person.
> ...


 :? Come again?


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

I dont think these last posts are helping or adding anything to the debate. I think it would be best to stop before it goes too far.


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

genocidalduck said:


> Scotty has good reason to play it safe...Doesnt make him any less of a person.


Care to enlighten me??????? PM if you like?


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

Guys Chill.


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## dj c225 (Nov 3, 2004)

scoTTy said:


> You stood up, said you could do it better and then you run away from it. Who's the one giving up and walking away? :roll:


I was actually sat down :lol:

Where did *I* say I could do it better, I suggested improvements could be made and I suggested where the flaws were, still think the TTOC is too top heavy...


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## genocidalduck (May 19, 2005)

scoTTy said:


> genocidalduck said:
> 
> 
> > Scotty has good reason to play it safe...Doesnt make him any less of a person.
> ...


You have more important things to worry about! newish born baby.


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## dj c225 (Nov 3, 2004)

On a side note, has the TTOC site been updated since the launch, can't seem to find any launch info/photos on the site :?


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

dj c225 said:


> Where did *I* say I could do it better, I suggested improvements could be made and I suggested where the flaws were, still think the TTOC is too top heavy...


Read the thread again and you'll see your posts which imply you could do better. You were suggesting anything is possible with effort which is an obvious stsatement but since effort is the thing in short supply it doesn't actual contribute to the debate.

I asked


scoTTy said:


> :roll: Are you saying you could do better than the TTOC on your own?


 but you ignored the question. :roll:

Duckie - re baby : Life wouldn't be life (or at least one worth living) if you didn't take risks. It simply depends on the balance and your responsibilities. It's strange you say that when people have often said to me "I can't believe you're doing that" :wink:

Now where were we....oh yeah.....

Where the feck is the response from the TTOC?
(reminds me - I really must get to the AGM this year)


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## dj c225 (Nov 3, 2004)

scoTTy said:


> dj c225 said:
> 
> 
> > Where did *I* say I could do it better, I suggested improvements could be made and I suggested where the flaws were, still think the TTOC is too top heavy...
> ...


scotty/geoff,

Maybe I could if I put serious money into it and promoted it with my resources that are available to me.


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## genocidalduck (May 19, 2005)

scoTTy said:


> Duckie - re baby : Life wouldn't be life (or at least one worth living) if you didn't take risks. It simply depends on the balance and your responsibilities. It's strange you say that when people have often said to me "I can't believe you're doing that" :wink:
> 
> Now where were we....oh yeah.....
> 
> ...


It will be here soon i think. Or early tomorrow...I think they might be going through who has been negative and striking them of their Christmas card list.


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

dj c225 said:


> scotty/geoff,
> 
> Maybe I could if I put serious money into it and promoted it with my resources that are available to me.


Go on then.


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## dj c225 (Nov 3, 2004)

scoTTy said:


> dj c225 said:
> 
> 
> > scotty/geoff,
> ...


Ok then.


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

Cool. I'm sure it will be appreciated by all the members. [smiley=cheers.gif]


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## dj c225 (Nov 3, 2004)

scoTTy said:


> Cool. I'm sure it will be appreciated by all the members. [smiley=cheers.gif]


All except a one or two


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

....err actually just had a thought. I believe the TTOC is actually quite cash rich.

I think it's back to where we started that the thing they need is contribution of effort and not cash.


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## Dotti (Mar 9, 2003)

Too many member 'whip rounds' at events? :lol:


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## dj c225 (Nov 3, 2004)

scoTTy said:


> ....err actually just had a thought. I believe the TTOC is actually quite cash rich.
> 
> I think it's back to where we started that the thing they need is contribution of effort and not cash.


Big mouth...


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## Carlos (May 6, 2002)

dj c225 said:


> Big mouth...


I've got no right ,to take my place, at the Mark 2 launch
Ah-ah-ah-ah.


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## mighTy Tee (Jul 10, 2002)

Having been at the last 2 AGM meetings I would like to say the attendance is poor. The TTOC has around (allegedly) 800 members. At the AGM last year there was the committee and about 40 "ordinary" members, many of those were probably partners of a TTOC member (i.e. my wife).

If people hold strong views on this subject then perhaps they should arrange to be at the AGM this year and challenge the committee.

However it appears most members want to cruise to the National Meet on the day and not join in the serious business of how the club is run by attending the AGM the previous night.

What are the alternatives:

Well there are probably 3..

1) Arrange for a EGM

2) Put up and shut up

3) Dont support the TTOC

As for who went to Berlin, I may have missed the answer, but was there any cost to the TTOC or were all expenses paid for by Audi/those that went?


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## Jae (May 6, 2002)

Flip me, a lot happends in 24 hrs.

Point 1.

TTOC is a well run organisation, who provide its members with a quality magazine and events, both annual and local. The magazine takes a hell of a long time to produce, and involves many people. The events...well, you can work that one out! The TTOC is also a voluntary organisation, with people spending much of their free time working for no cash reward.

Point 2.

To try and replace the TTOC with an alternative is a pointless exercise, energies would be better spent contributing to the TTOC.

Point 3.

I will be having a meeting with the TTOC (to be arranged) to discuss a way forward with the TTF. This will not be just myself, but with others from the TTF. There is no point me being on the Committee, as I live in Germany, but would like to contribute to them in an "remote" capacity.

Point 4.

The TTF does provide income, it has to to survive. Also, the time I spend on it eats into my personal life, and I have to justify it with something tangable. I have a child, who I want spend time with, as do many of you. I therefore have to spend billable time out of my own business working on the TTF. I work for myself, so do not have the luxury of a regular salary or paid holidays.

Conclusion.

This is meant to be a debate about what went wrong with this launch, and how we can all go forward from this to make both the TTF and the TTOC better for its members. I dont want to see slagging matches running riot, I want to see contributions to the thread that will spark ideas and responses which can be used by the TTF and TTOC going forward.

For the record, Scotty is probably the biggest authority on the TTOC and Audi UK relationships outside the TTOC, and I know that I can trust he point of view, sometimes with a little arguement 

Now, gather all the toys, but them in the boxes, and lets have some constructive threads back here please!

Jae


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## TT Owners Club (Mar 5, 2006)

The TTOC Committee response to the questions raised in this thread can be found in the TTOC area of the forum - http://www.********.co.uk/ttforumbbs/vi ... hp?t=60667

Kell, on behalf of the TTOC Committee


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## aidb (Mar 19, 2003)

Well said Jae.

Some of these replies must make depressing reading for the TTOC committee. To be honest, I don't see the TTOC surviving without the hard work of these folks. I for one wouldn't be able to put in all the time, skill and dedication that is required. Keep up the good work, ignore the jibes (is that the sound of grinding axes I hear? :lol: ), and don't let the bar stewards grind you down. :wink:


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

Jae said:


> For the record, Scotty is probably the biggest authority on the TTOC and Audi UK relationships outside the TTOC, and I know that I can trust he point of view, sometimes with a little arguement


Outside the TTOC? I'm a member but not in the committee. :wink: 
My point of views/opinions come from an understanding of how the relationship works etc but I have not been in discussions directly with Audi UK for quite a while hence it may well have changed.

A little arguement? You must be thinking of someone else! :roll:


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## Love_iTT (Aug 18, 2002)

Although I am on the TTOC committee, let me make it quite clear that this response is not on behalf of the committee but purely mine.

I have held off for so long but I can't and will not hold off any longer.

I think thatâ€™s about it for me then.

Why on earth should I and the rest of the committee work our butts off for you lot. What thanks have we got from this, in fact just the opposite. You whinging load of toss pots, while you were asleep in your beds, I and most of the other members of the committee were working literally through most of the night to cover the launch. I went to bed at 1.45am and then got up again at 4.30am to carry on with getting absoluTTe ready for press that day.

The reason I went to bed?

I was waiting for the others in Berlin to sort through the many photographs they had taken and once they had done that they then had to ftp them (Some large files at 40meg each) which would take time to come through. By the time I got up at 4.30 they were there ready for me to start work on along with copy that Leg had written and they were just going to bed at 5.00am

I then took Friday off as paid holiday just to get absoluTTe finished and to press which it did by Friday afternoon, I printed off colour proofs for the printer using my ink, paper and resources to do so. Not one penny of the clubs funds has been involved in this â€˜Jollyâ€™ as some of you think it was.

What the hell are you lot playing at. We are all volunteers trying to do our best as well as holding down our jobs and home life and you sit at your keyboards in your little virtual world critising the way we handled it. As far as Iâ€™m concerned, we did do our best and Iâ€™m not going to be treated like this from a bunch of self opiniated low life like you.

So I suppose youâ€™ve all won then â€" if you want to call winning, me not producing absoluTTe anymore with no expense to the TTOC at all and the stuffing knocked out of me then well done people, consider it a victory.

So, if you feel that you not only have the expertise to produce absoluTTe but you can also take a load of shit time after time from your so called members then please feel free to contact Mark.

One really fucked off Graham


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## caney (Feb 5, 2004)

jampott said:


> Guys, just be happy for Mark. Both him AND his girlfriend got tickets. :lol:


you crack me up!


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## vagman (Sep 6, 2002)

> Bored of the mk2 and it aint even here yet.
> 
> None of the 'pictures' we have seen has made the mk1 look dated, im doubting some of the recent ones are a million miles off the mk2 as well.
> 
> My next car will look something like this, hence, i couldnt give a toss about the mk2, wont have one, never will, nowhere to put my canoe and im guessing it will be sh1t useless in 8 feet of snow at minus 15 in Winter!


A recent quote from a Berlin attendee. :?


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## Leg (Jan 11, 2006)

vagman said:


> > Bored of the mk2 and it aint even here yet.
> >
> > None of the 'pictures' we have seen has made the mk1 look dated, im doubting some of the recent ones are a million miles off the mk2 as well.
> >
> ...


Yup, by me, its correct, I cant get one, my circumstance wont allow and subsequently I couldnt care less.

In the same vein Clarkson wont ever own a Bugatti, doesnt mean he cant write about it, in the same vein any journalist that was with us will buy one, they probably wont as most of them dont own cars, they can still write about them.

I didnt go for me, for fun, I went because I was tasked, amongst other things, to write the lead article for absoluTTe covering the event.

My personal views are irrelivent in this instance and when everyone reads the article they will see thats the case, its called 'work' and 'professionalism'. These forums and that comment are for personal views and discussion and are seperate to what I do for the TTOC, its not a means to express my own views unlike this forum.

You should know that. Its blatantly obvious. Grow up.


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

Leg said:


> vagman said:
> 
> 
> > > Bored of the mk2 and it aint even here yet.
> ...


But you have made up your mind before even going to the event? And not just based on your own personal circumstances. What is the article going to be like? "MK1 still looks the King, Don't buy an MK2 for snow driving or if you want to transport your canoe, or when it is -15C?"


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## Love_iTT (Aug 18, 2002)

vlastan said:


> Leg said:
> 
> 
> > . . .My personal views are irrelivent in this instance and when everyone reads the article they will see thats the case, its called 'work' and 'professionalism'. . .
> ...


I thought he had answered that here.

Graham


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## R6B TT (Feb 25, 2003)

aidb said:


> Well said Jae.
> 
> Some of these replies must make depressing reading for the TTOC committee. To be honest, I don't see the TTOC surviving without the hard work of these folks. I for one wouldn't be able to put in all the time, skill and dedication that is required. Keep up the good work, ignore the jibes (is that the sound of grinding axes I hear? :lol: ), and don't let the bar stewards grind you down. :wink:


This is my personal response.

Kell has posted up a response on the TTOC Forum.

Thank you Aid - and you're not wrong. I feel pretty gutted and angry about some of the accusations and comments on this thread. There is a terrific amount of work which goes on behind the scenes, making things happen as well as the visible stuff - events etc.

However, I take some solace that the great majority of the negative posters on this thread are not current, and in several cases have never been TT Owners Club members.

So, one could reasonably argue what the fuck has it got to do with them anyway?

Several have however participated in and enjoyed TTOC organised and subsidised events in the past.

Kell has posted up the Committee response on the TTOC Forum. I didn't go to Berlin - yes, I was disappointed, but we needed to pick the best people for the jobs that needed to be done, to get the best results and information for our members, and I agreed with the selection when I understood the logic.

And as for this shit about Lou and TT ownership - Mark and Lou have a TT in their garage which they both drive. They also both put a huge amount of personal time, effort and resource in establishing the club, making it work and taking it forward.

If the objective was to wind up / piss off / or otherwise upset the Committee Members (whether or not they went to the launch or not) well done.

However, I see that the Club Members who have posted are mostly positive, so hopefully we are doing some things right.

I just feel sorry that so much negative publicity and perceptions have been created by people who have no interest either way in the success of the Club and based largely on incorrect or inaccurate assumptions / presumptions.

djc225 mentions TTotal posting negatively about the TTOC recently - post up a link mate, if its the thread I'm thinking of John had some duff information from somewhere, and when he got the correct information he deleted the inaccurate posts.

Still, you can't please everyone all of the time.


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

People have every right to express their views here. We don't all agree to them which is understandable.

Giving feedback to the club should NOT be seen as "shit" as you claim. You should accept negative feedback and think for a minute: "Hold on...why this person thinks like this? Maybe something is really wrong and we need to address it."

Nobody dismissed the efforts of the club, but some people here suggested ways of improving it. And it doesn't matter if someone is a member or not. Because the club wants to increase membership and has to promote good values to current members as well as future potential members.


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## dj c225 (Nov 3, 2004)

R6B TT said:


> djc225 mentions TTotal posting negatively about the TTOC recently - post up a link mate, if its the thread I'm thinking of John had some duff information from somewhere, and when he got the correct information he deleted the inaccurate posts.


I don't think John said anything negative, I think it was the attitude of the committee that caused the stir up


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## dj c225 (Nov 3, 2004)

vlastan said:


> People have every right to express their views here. We don't all agree to them which is understandable.
> 
> Giving feedback to the club should NOT be seen as "shit" as you claim. You should accept negative feedback and think for a minute: "Hold on...why this person thinks like this? Maybe something is really wrong and we need to address it."
> 
> Nobody dismissed the efforts of the club, but some people here suggested ways of improving it. And it doesn't matter if someone is a member or not. Because the club wants to increase membership and has to promote good values to current members as well as future potential members.


*This guy is spot on.*


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## R6B TT (Feb 25, 2003)

vlastan said:


> People have every right to express their views here. We don't all agree to them which is understandable.
> 
> Giving feedback to the club should NOT be seen as "shit" as you claim. You should accept negative feedback and think for a minute: "Hold on...why this person thinks like this? Maybe something is really wrong and we need to address it."
> 
> Nobody dismissed the efforts of the club, but some people here suggested ways of improving it. And it doesn't matter if someone is a member or not. Because the club wants to increase membership and has to promote good values to current members as well as future potential members.


Feedback should be constructive.

If I gave 'feedback' to people in the same way that many of the posts here are written, I think I could confidently expect a smack in the mouth for my trouble.

As you said about Lou 'She should be shot then', I don't take that as constructive.

This thread, in my view, contains a great deal of personal attack and vitriol based in most cases on inaccurate assumptions or just a desire to cause trouble.

Jae's posts have been very balanced and reasonable - unlike many of the others.

Anyway, I'm going to Milan now. It'll be good to be away from here for a few days.


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## dj c225 (Nov 3, 2004)

Rob, you take things way to personal...

Lighten up!


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## Leg (Jan 11, 2006)

*Language content edited(*'d). 1. This isn't the flame room. 2. To allow this thread to get through NSFW checking software found in workplaces*



vlastan said:


> Leg said:
> 
> 
> > vagman said:
> ...


Thick as f*ck (yeah b*llocks to it u lot have a personal go at me throughout this thread one way or the other so ill join f*cking in). Mark im sorry, but its too personal now, so f*ck it.

Read it again, I covered the *event*, which I went to, my personal opinions are irrelivent. I didnt put into the article that the speeches were in my opinion f*cking tedious, that its was f*cking freezing and that frankly I thought the professional photographers were the second rudest and ungrateful bunch ive ever come accross, certain members of this forum being the first.

I didnt review the car, someone else has written that article.

Ill tell you what else as well buddy, im f*cking knackered cos not only have I spent the last 3 months working as both web manager and features editor cos no other f*cker will step up ive been working on a major project which im f*cking dying to bleat about but cant which has taken some 150 hours of my time. Add to that getting back from farnborough to home on friday after 5 hours on the bastard motorway, spending some precious time with my wife and kids and then working 10pm - 4am friday night, 9am - 11am Saturday morning and 10pm - 4am last night as well as 10am - 12am this morning on the same projects final phases and you can imagine I dont really give a s*it.

So if any of you twillocks in here who dont like that I went to Berlin dont like it then frankly you can stick it up your a*ses. If ure prepared to work as hard as I have then fine coem along and in 3 months Ill take you to berlin all expenses f*cking paid myself. For those that do work hard for the club and have been here longer than me then I didnt barge my way in i was invited because i can and was prepared to do the tasks required. The roles I have taken were empty for some time before I took them because Mark, Barry and Clive thought I could do them and asked me, everyone had the chance and i took it when the trip was unknown to me, not because of it.

Reps and so on all work hard but the trip demanded someone from editorial and also web, the roles were invited, i do them, Audi approved, I went, simple as.

Couldnt agree with Graham more, ungrateful t*ssers who cant be arsed to find out the facts before mouthing off.

Apologies to anyone in the club, this thread or on these forums who is a decent intelligent person, u guys are the only reason im still bothering cos these numpties, half of whom dont even own a TT anymore, dont deserve people like Graham, Clive, Mark and Lou et al who get paid f*ck all, put many hours in and have to suffer this kind of crap. Freebie wise i pinched a pen and got a toy car, woopidoo, I had to take 2 days f*cking holiday at short notice, move 2 business meetings with clients, drive down to Farnbourough over 250 miles and then spend the entire f*cking trip tapping notes into my pda and writing articles and editing photos till soddin 5am.

Yeah it was also enjoyable, cant deny it, but dont think i f*cking asked to go cos i didnt, never thought i was even in consideration and didnt even know i was going till Tuesday when i got a call out of the blue, I was the last committee member available with the right skills and thats it. Plus Audi AGand Audi UK approved me for the trip and yes, they do check you out 1st!


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

This isn't in reply to Leg just comments I'd written before I saw his post :

My initial posts were whilst I was surprised and disappointed that our elected representatives were at the event without us knowing before hand. As I posted this would have been useful.

My comments were meant to be critical and constructive and I won't deny I was extremely disappointed that it was done how it was.

It seems I then took on a defensive roll for the TTOC, Leg, etc (don't know why) and got caught up with DJ about his comments.

There are two comments perhaps I shouldn't have made.

[1] "Where the feck is the response from the TTOC?"

I should have appreciated the hours that had been recently put in.

[2] Suggesting that Nutts was lieing about it not being a secret. I'm still at a loss how any one in the committee failed to notify the members of the TTOCs attendance but I've been informed by a person I trust in the commitee that it was not intentional. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt based on this.

If the above post or any others offended anyone in the TTOC or the commitee you have my apology. Apart from the above (after re-reading all my posts) I don't think any do.

I really hope that, as per the TTOC statement, things have been learnt and that the TTOC continues to grow. I also wish that there were more people doing it rather than just talking about it. It is easy to throw mud from the sidelines but the ratio of those contributing to those just taking is pretty woeful. Lets hope the raft of new energetic and enthusiastic Mrk II owners builds it up.


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

Leg your post is disgusting i think you need to edit out all the swear words, its clear not needed and im sure you can express your point without the use of it.

This is not a flame room


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## Leg (Jan 11, 2006)

Toshiba said:


> Leg your post is disgusting i think you need to edit out all the swear words, its clear not needed and im sure you can express your point without the use of it.
> 
> This is not a flame room


Ure having a laugh Tosh, have u read this thread? Assumptions, slights and insults all through it aimed at me and all I did was accept an invitation and work my testicles off.

_Do you want to go to berlin for the TT Mk2 launch and write an article for absoluTTe as well as gather information, perform interviews and so on for the site?_

_Hmm lemme think, yeah go on then._

Didnt realise there was a load of politics attached to it ffs!

Thats all I did yet I get a load of grief. Never even asked to go, in fact I didnt ask to join the committee, I gladly accepted when I was offered and im glad I did even after this crap. If people think that warrants the posts in here against me and you think that im not entitled to be bl00dy annoyed then im afraid we live in 2 different worlds m8.

Someone has asterixed my response, not me. I stand by every swear word, every little word and sentiment which to be frank was toned down from my true feelings in deference to the decent people on here.

Im from the sh1t end of the stick mate, thats how people talk when they are annoyed, personally my wife has dragged me up from the gutter she found me in and i make the effort generally but the whole thing has made me regress.


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## clived (May 6, 2002)

dj c225 said:


> R6B TT said:
> 
> 
> > djc225 mentions TTotal posting negatively about the TTOC recently - post up a link mate, if its the thread I'm thinking of John had some duff information from somewhere, and when he got the correct information he deleted the inaccurate posts.
> ...





dj c225 said:


> IThis is not the first time I have heard such negative comments about the TTOC (recall TTotals thread a few weeks back), think you guys need to smarten up your act.


I think this is what Rob is referring to.... can you point us at the thread please?


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## dj c225 (Nov 3, 2004)

clived said:


> dj c225 said:
> 
> 
> > R6B TT said:
> ...


You know the thread; go look for it, see the problems that occured between a member and the TTOC.


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

Leg said:


> Toshiba said:
> 
> 
> > Leg your post is disgusting i think you need to edit out all the swear words, its clear not needed and im sure you can express your point without the use of it.
> ...


Leg

I think people have a right to ask who and why people went. For me Mark answered that about 15 pages back. I canâ€™t comment on why other people say what they say.

I donâ€™t think this is going anywhere. TTOC had said or put their side forward. People can either agree or disagree. If lessons can be learned from this great i.e. openness where ever possible. If people want to take part in the running of the TTOC then i guess they should contact the TTOC. Also if they are unhappy with the way the TTOC is run again contact them and step up so you can change it.

I will not post on this tread anymore.


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## Kell (May 28, 2002)

dj c225 said:


> clived said:
> 
> 
> > dj c225 said:
> ...


No - see the problems that occurred between a member and another member. Had you read any or all of the threads properly, you will see that it started from a personal comment that I made. Not a committee position or stand point.

Oh - and seeing as how you have so many good ideas about how to market the club - don't you think you'd be ideal for the one vacant committee position of Marketing Secretary?

It's still available - and then you'd also be able to have a direct say in what happens with the club.


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## clived (May 6, 2002)

dj c225 said:


> You know the thread; go look for it, see the problems that occured between a member and the TTOC.


If I could find it, I'd not be asking. It is however possible you're posting *ollocks, but I'm sure you'll be posting a link shortly to prove that not to be the case. Otherwise we'll have to assume that you're entirely comfortable posted totally unsubstatiated comments.


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## Leg (Jan 11, 2006)

Toshiba said:


> Leg
> 
> I think people have a right to ask who and why people went.


Couldnt agree more wholeheartedly, thats not what I was referring to.

Anyone reading the thread can see it.


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## dj c225 (Nov 3, 2004)

Kell said:


> Oh - and seeing as how you have so many good ideas about how to market the club - don't you think you'd be ideal for the one vacant committee position of Marketing Secretary?
> 
> It's still available - and then you'd also be able to have a direct say in what happens with the club.


Don't see why not, pm me some details.


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## clived (May 6, 2002)

Come along to the absoluTTe stuffing session on Weds evening where we'll be having a committee meeting. So long as you've demonstrated that you're not prone to posting unsubstatiated comments (after all, I'm sure the membership would criticise us for inviting anyone who blatantly does that in public on to the committee without a vote at the AGM) we'd be happy to consider you.


----------

