# two dead men walking arrested!!!



## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

two guys have been arrested for badly beating the old girl in her home, i can only hope that it is actually them and they suffer every bit of pain she did every day if it is them. however i fear the criminal code of not touching the straights in life has been dead and buried a long time.........prison will be yet another sky tv in cell with days out event [smiley=bigcry.gif] [smiley=bigcry.gif]


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

Hope the filths get what they deserve [smiley=bomb.gif]


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## merlin c (Jan 25, 2012)

A3DFU said:


> Hope the filths get what they deserve [smiley=bomb.gif]


unfortunately we all know they wont.....Shame.. :twisted: [smiley=hanged.gif] Too extreme for some, tough, scum like that don't deserve compassion or mercy!


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## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

The problem with capital punishment is the lynchmob mentality in this thread. Two people have been arrested. The three posters so far would have lynched them by now, probably after a good old torture session by the sounds of it (probably just to ensure a confession!).

They're supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. I'd like to think if I was arrested for a crime I didn't commit I wouldn't be hanged before the trial, but that's looking unlikely in this case....


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

wja96 said:


> The three posters so far would have lynched them by now


Sorry, I didn't say I'd lynch anyone!!!

What I DID say was that I hope they get what they deserve. That means that in the case they're found guilty of the crime they'll serve time behind bars


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## merlin c (Jan 25, 2012)

wja96 said:


> The problem with capital punishment is the lynchmob mentality in this thread. Two people have been arrested. The three posters so far would have lynched them by now, probably after a good old torture session by the sounds of it (probably just to ensure a confession!).
> 
> They're supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. I'd like to think if I was arrested for a crime I didn't commit I wouldn't be hanged before the trial, but that's looking unlikely in this case....


Please realise that we were commenting on the first post where the statement,* "if it was them"* was used, that is the position I am posting from, not it must be them because they have been arrested. I would have thought that that was quite clear, if not then I am sorry you arrived at the wrong conclusion with reference to the above posts, my point is about punishment and payback for such scum.


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

oops gazz causes yet another dodgy topic that causes a row .........sozzzz


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## YoungOldUn (Apr 12, 2011)

Don't be sorry Gaz, I think that the majority of the population would agree with the sentiments behind your post.


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## merlin c (Jan 25, 2012)

YoungOldUn said:


> Don't be sorry Gaz, I think that the majority of the population would agree with the sentiments behind your post.


+1 [smiley=thumbsup.gif] I'm with you on this one Gaz, the punishment for violent "guilty" criminals is often laughable.


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

merlin c said:


> YoungOldUn said:
> 
> 
> > Don't be sorry Gaz, I think that the majority of the population would agree with the sentiments behind your post.
> ...


+1 from me too!!!


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

HANG THE BASTARDS FROM THE JIBBERT then and lets all sleep in peace when our kids or in my case grand kids go up town to enjoy themselves. got to be honest i have had many a sleepless night waiting for daughter 1,2 & 3 to get home over the years


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## merlin c (Jan 25, 2012)

Gazzer said:


> HANG THE BASTARDS FROM THE JIBBERT then and lets all sleep in peace when our kids or in my case grand kids go up town to enjoy themselves. got to be honest i have had many a sleepless night waiting for daughter 1,2 & 3 to get home over the years


Slightly 'Off topic' a bit there Gaz..but I get your sentiments....most of us are parents of grown up kids (they say their adults, strange how they become "mummy's baby" when cash off dad is needed) we never stop worrying about them, but that's what being a parent demands of us, no matter how dangerous we perceive society to be. [smiley=sweetheart.gif]


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## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

OK, if you are all so clear you wanted them tried, why not wait and post this after they were convicted?

Simple!

You want blood! It's quite normal. A bit unhealthy, but quite normal amongst people who don't realise just how close to uncontrolled violence we all actually are.


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## merlin c (Jan 25, 2012)

wja96 said:


> OK, if you are all so clear you wanted them tried, why not wait and post this after they were convicted?
> 
> Simple!
> 
> You want blood! It's quite normal. A bit unhealthy, but quite normal amongst people who don't realise just how close to uncontrolled violence we all actually are.


Surely the deduction that one should draw from your "uncontrolled violence" statement is that we are all too aware of our violent nature but we control it and use other weapons in our armoury, such as debating. [smiley=gossip.gif]

We do not however go around beating up old people or the defenceless, we protect them. This last statement was in no way in answer to anything you said


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

wja96 said:


> OK, if you are all so clear you wanted them tried, why not wait and post this after they were convicted?
> 
> Simple!
> 
> You want blood! It's quite normal. A bit unhealthy, but quite normal amongst people who don't realise just how close to uncontrolled violence we all actually are.


being a free society and forum.........i heard the news and posted a topic about it, isnt that my perogative to do so if i wish? if you do not like my posts or topics then please feel free to not respond.........though it is your right to if you so wish in a free society.

many societies i would have been arrested for many topics i have posted on or started, so i thank god i live in one that i can say what i want to in a place like this within certain moral boundaries of course.


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## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

Personally, I think you should attend at the very least some form of anger management training. You seem a bit.... Edgy?


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## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

merlin c said:


> wja96 said:
> 
> 
> > OK, if you are all so clear you wanted them tried, why not wait and post this after they were convicted?
> ...


But you didn't control it, you stated that you wanted violence done to them. And there was a clear implication that the "moral" criminals in prison would do that violence for you. I really don't see any difference between your violence by proxy attitudes and doing it yourself. Be honest, your first thought was "hanging's too good for them!" wasn't it?


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## YoungOldUn (Apr 12, 2011)

wja96 said:


> But you didn't control it, you stated that you wanted violence done to them. And there was a clear implication that the "moral" criminals in prison would do that violence for you. I really don't see any difference between your violence by proxy attitudes and doing it yourself. Be honest, your first thought was "hanging's too good for them!" wasn't it?


I feel there is a little confusion creeping in here. The first person to mention 'violence being done to them' was you.

Gazzer said -



Gazzer said:


> two guys have been arrested for badly beating the old girl in her home, i can only hope that it is actually them and they suffer every bit of pain she did every day if it is them. however i fear the criminal code of not touching the straights in life has been dead and buried a long time.........prison will be yet another sky tv in cell with days out event [smiley=bigcry.gif] [smiley=bigcry.gif]


While you said -


wja96 said:


> The problem with capital punishment is the lynchmob mentality in this thread. Two people have been arrested. The three posters so far would have lynched them by now, probably after a good old torture session by the sounds of it (probably just to ensure a confession!).
> 
> They're supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. I'd like to think if I was arrested for a crime I didn't commit I wouldn't be hanged before the trial, but that's looking unlikely in this case....


This was the first time 'capital punishment is the lynchmob mentality' was mentioned :?

Merlin C placed a [smiley=hanged.gif] in his post but I don't count a 'smiley' as being condoning capital punishment per se.


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

wja96 said:


> Personally, I think you should attend at the very least some form of anger management training. You seem a bit.... Edgy?


calm as a cucumber and always am bud.........never rowed with my wife in nearly 27 years together, disagreements yes but not rowed. no criminal reccord apart from an sp30 and a rollerking for missing a sorn lol.

dont be so serious ist a forum not a court room lol

bloody hell Jim you taking dbl doses of viagra lmao......well posted bud


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## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

YoungOldUn said:


> wja96 said:
> 
> 
> > But you didn't control it, you stated that you wanted violence done to them. And there was a clear implication that the "moral" criminals in prison would do that violence for you. I really don't see any difference between your violence by proxy attitudes and doing it yourself. Be honest, your first thought was "hanging's too good for them!" wasn't it?
> ...


I don't think there is any confusion creeping in here at all. We had a bunch of rope-happy posters who got called on the real meaning of justice and now they're desperately trying to dig themselves out of a hole.

Violence was always implied - even in the "I hope they get what's coming to them" post. I'm 99.9% certain A3DFU didn't mean 3-10 years in custody.


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## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

Gazzer said:


> wja96 said:
> 
> 
> > Personally, I think you should attend at the very least some form of anger management training. You seem a bit.... Edgy?
> ...


Why can't you post anything other than hate then? Why not post something positive?


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

wja96 said:


> Gazzer said:
> 
> 
> > wja96 said:
> ...


why not just fuck of and bury a pineapple up ya arse you misserable sod lol.....jees take a chill pill for once. only person getting uppity here is you!


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## Gforce (May 10, 2011)

I think the problem with society is not the ones who wanted to lynch the people responsible 
it's the people who jump to there defence no matter how heinous the crime saving violence is not the answer what a joke the punishment should fit the crime and in this case I'd be happy to see them in a lot of pain and not put up in a 4star prison with sky tv, games rooms etc


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## YELLOW_TT (Feb 25, 2004)

Gforce said:


> I think the problem with society is not the ones who wanted to lynch the people responsible
> it's the people who jump to there defence no matter how heinous the crime saving violence is not the answer what a joke the punishment should fit the crime and in this case I'd be happy to see them in a lot of pain and not put up in a 4star prison with sky tv, games rooms etc


+1 far to many do gooders out there


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## merlin c (Jan 25, 2012)

wja96 said:


> YoungOldUn said:
> 
> 
> > wja96 said:
> ...


I have stated on another thread that I agree with capital punishment for certain heinous crimes so I am not trying to dig myself out of hole for the benefit of some bleeding heart liberal like you. [smiley=thumbsdown.gif] [smiley=toilet.gif] Your the sort of person that would bring violence out of people.... [smiley=huh2.gif]


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## Bung (Jun 13, 2011)

There seems to be some confusion in this thread and the other one on capital punishment, that is if a person is against the death penalty then somehow they are defending said criminals I really believe this is not the case, it's ridiculous to suggest that if you are opposed to a law then somehow you are in support of violent criminal behaviour. In order to be somewhat objective it is neccessary to detatch the emotion from the argument after all this is how laws are formed.

It is quite understandable to be emotional when confronted with crimes against people that are brutal and callous, however revenge, and this is what we are talking about only breeds more like behaviour and continues the cycle.
Just because someone doesn't agree with the death penalty does not make them a "bleeding heart liberal" This is a ridiculous generalisation in my opinion and serves no other purpose than name calling.
If there is to be a debate on this forum then both sides have to accept that their views will be opposed otherwise there is no debate just name calling.

A lot of statistics have been thrown around trying to back up assertions but they are only stats and in themselves mean very little and carry very little weight, I think that in the end it boils down to a moral choice in whether you agree with the deliberate taking of a human life or not.

I myself do not support the death penalty and the reasons against it have been put forward already, wrong convictions, not a deterrent and immoral, it's never going to be a black/white issue.


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

I respect your view and agree wholeheartedly that having an oppossing view doesnt make you bad wrong or indeed right, and visa versa. My issue wth those who take a view against capital punishmen't is that they offer no other suggestion to what can be done, other than maintaining the status quo of course. I disagree, I believe that the facts are important (on both sides = they help to put into context what is happening), every one of the 600+ statistics murdered last year were people who had every right to still be alive today; to put the emotion to one side is in effect to put those people, their friends and families to one side. In my view it is the very act of removing the emotion that serves the criminals best interests. Isn't it emotional to the families when their loved one has been murdered? Isn't it emotional when daddy tells little Johnny that mummy isn't coming home any more? Justice should be dealt out with the full weight of emotion behind it and in that way it may well come close to ensuring that the punishment fit's the crime.

just my view, I dont expect you or anyone else to agree and that is fine.


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## merlin c (Jan 25, 2012)

BrianR said:


> I respect your view and agree wholeheartedly that having an oppossing view doesnt make you bad wrong or indeed right, and visa versa. My issue wth those who take a view against capital punishmen't is that they offer no other suggestion to what can be done, other than maintaining the status quo of course. I disagree, I believe that the facts are important (on both sides = they help to put into context what is happening), every one of the 600+ statistics murdered last year were people who had every right to still be alive today; to put the emotion to one side is in effect to put those people, their friends and families to one side. In my view it is the very act of removing the emotion that serves the criminals best interests. Isn't it emotional to the families when their loved one has been murdered? Isn't it emotional when daddy tells little Johnny that mummy isn't coming home any more? Justice should be dealt out with the full weight of emotion behind it and in that way it may well come close to ensuring that the punishment fit's the crime.
> 
> just my view, I dont expect you or anyone else to agree and that is fine.


+1 [smiley=thumbsup.gif]


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

BrianR said:


> My issue wth those who take a view against capital punishmen't is that they offer no other suggestion to what can be done, other than maintaining the status quo of course.


But that's where the morality comes in - People who are against capital punishment think it's immoral, so it's not a question of having an alternative.. it doesn't become more moral just because you don't know what else to do.


BrianR said:


> to put the emotion to one side is in effect to put those people, their friends and families to one side. In my view it is the very act of removing the emotion that serves the criminals best interests. Isn't it emotional to the families when their loved one has been murdered? Isn't it emotional when daddy tells little Johnny that mummy isn't coming home any more? Justice should be dealt out with the full weight of emotion behind it and in that way it may well come close to ensuring that the punishment fit's the crime.


But aren't all victims families emotional? Are you saying we base the punishment on how emotional they are? If the victim doesn't have a family, does the murderer get a different sentence?


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## Bung (Jun 13, 2011)

BrianR said:


> I respect your view and agree wholeheartedly that having an oppossing view doesnt make you bad wrong or indeed right, and visa versa. My issue wth those who take a view against capital punishmen't is that they offer no other suggestion to what can be done, other than maintaining the status quo of course. I disagree, I believe that the facts are important (on both sides = they help to put into context what is happening), every one of the 600+ statistics murdered last year were people who had every right to still be alive today; to put the emotion to one side is in effect to put those people, their friends and families to one side. In my view it is the very act of removing the emotion that serves the criminals best interests. Isn't it emotional to the families when their loved one has been murdered? Isn't it emotional when daddy tells little Johnny that mummy isn't coming home any more? Justice should be dealt out with the full weight of emotion behind it and in that way it may well come close to ensuring that the punishment fit's the crime.
> 
> just my view, I dont expect you or anyone else to agree and that is fine.


I don't disagree with the premise of what you are saying however my point was not that we shouldn't feel any emotion towards the victims families/friends but that an emotional judgement especially when the out come decides whether someone lives or dies is usually a bad thing.

I don't think that a single person who is anti capital punishment doesn't feel emotional and upset when they read/hear about someone getting murdered, however I do believe quite strongly that it's how we react to these events that define us as people and as wja96 pointed out, quite rightly in my opinion human beings are almost always only a stressful situation away from behaving the exact way as those we would condemn.


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## Gforce (May 10, 2011)

"as wja96 pointed out, quite rightly in my opinion human beings are almost always only a stressful situation away from behaving the exact way as those we would condemn"

So we are all a stressful situation away form bashing an old defenceless lady's head in??? Come on Remember the topic??
It's our ability to deal with stressful situations that set us apart from these kind of people And also highlights why they shouldn't be a part of society

I can see the argument for no capital punishment and your entitled to it

But it is my belief that what we have in place now is not good enough for this type of scum


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

Gforce said:


> "as wja96 pointed out, quite rightly in my opinion human beings are almost always only a stressful situation away from behaving the exact way as those we would condemn"
> 
> So we are all a stressful situation away form bashing an old defenceless lady's head in??? Come on Remember the topic??
> It's our ability to deal with stressful situations that set us apart from these kind of people And also highlights why they shouldn't be a part of society
> ...


+1 well said


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## Bung (Jun 13, 2011)

Gforce said:


> "
> I can see the argument for no capital punishment and your entitled to it
> 
> But it is my belief that what we have in place now is not good enough for this type of scum


I agree with the above statement and I would think so would most anti capital punishment people. It's not that I/we think that what is in place is sufficient, far from it, it's the "quick bubba grab the rope we're gonna have ourselves a lnyching" knee jerk reactions that never solve nor help a situation.

I think that it's the personal anger directed by people who are quite far removed from the subject in question with instant hate projected and little thought put into it other than revenge that smacks of lynch mob mentality.
Disagreeing with the current system is a good thing as far as I'm concerned, baying for blood without any thought put into it though is just primal behaviour, in my opinion.


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## Gforce (May 10, 2011)

Capital punishment could work if we ever had a justice system we could trust but that is not likely to happen anytime soon
I don't want to hang anyone just want the people who commit crimes like this to be locked away forever it's the same with pedos murderers etc 
I want kids to be safe on the streets and people not to live in fear that the person just sent down for beating up there gran or touching up there kids isn't back on the streets in 3-4 years if it hast to be 3-4 years then I truly hope they go through a living hell for those 3-4 years maybe that would make them les likely to reoffend.
Lock them away for good and make them work every day for there keep don't see why we should be paying for there accommodation 
would be cheaper to hang them but I do understand we ain't in Victorian times anymore and I have to admit after watching saddam hung by a lynch mob for all he was an evil evil man I't was hard to watch id rather have seen him suffer long term in prison not that he would have lasted long there either.


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## Bung (Jun 13, 2011)

Gforce said:


> Capital punishment could work if we ever had a justice system we could trust but that is not likely to happen anytime soon
> I don't want to hang anyone just want the people who commit crimes like this to be locked away forever it's the same with pedos murderers etc
> I want kids to be safe on the streets and people not to live in fear that the person just sent down for beating up there gran or touching up there kids isn't back on the streets in 3-4 years if it hast to be 3-4 years then I truly hope they go through a living hell for those 3-4 years maybe that would make them les likely to reoffend.
> Lock them away for good and make them work every day for there keep don't see why we should be paying for there accommodation
> would be cheaper to hang them but I do understand we ain't in Victorian times anymore and I have to admit after watching saddam hung by a lynch mob for all he was an evil evil man I't was hard to watch id rather have seen him suffer long term in prison not that he would have lasted long there either.


Once again I agree with your statement ( see what's happening here we're having a discussion ) I also wish for all the things that you do too, I just don't believe that state sanctioned executions are the solution. I believe that punishments should be harsh but to take a life in revenge for taking a life is just hypocritical and by extension immoral.


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

Spandex said:


> BrianR said:
> 
> 
> > My issue wth those who take a view against capital punishmen't is that they offer no other suggestion to what can be done, other than maintaining the status quo of course.
> ...


I guess what I am saying is that if the judge in the trial of a murderer - (I am not suggesting we hang theives) truly empathised with the victim and if the law allowed him to, that the verdicts would likely be much more severe than they currently are (families or not). Yet again I read in the press today that the co-murderer of a policeman receives a 14 year sentence (will likely be out ,much sooner than that). Policemans wife was devistated by the length of sentence. i dont know all of the facts surrounding the case, I do know that his co accussed received 30 years (unusually long sentence) but I am left wondering how long must this go on? I don't hope to sway you guys on the subject but rather am trying to play devils advocate here, challenge what currently does not work, whilst as I see it, you do maintain the status quo.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

BrianR said:


> I guess what I am saying is that if the judge in the trial of a murderer - (I am not suggesting we hang theives) truly empathised with the victim and if the law allowed him to, that the verdicts would likely be much more severe than they currently are (families or not). Yet again I read in the press today that the co-murderer of a policeman receives a 14 year sentence (will likely be out ,much sooner than that). Policemans wife was devistated by the length of sentence. i dont know all of the facts surrounding the case, I do know that his co accussed received 30 years (unusually long sentence) but I am left wondering how long must this go on? I don't hope to sway you guys on the subject but rather am trying to play devils advocate here, challenge what currently does not work, whilst as I see it, you do maintain the status quo.


But you're assuming that increasing the severity of sentences will result in a change to the status quo (i.e. a decrease in murders). There are two issues I see with that assumption. Firstly, repeat offenders make up a tiny proportion of murders, so capital punishment (or more full life sentences) simply can't have a significant effect on the murder rate. Secondly, capital punishment hasn't been proven to be a deterrent (probably because most murders aren't pre-meditated, so the perpetrator isn't thinking about the consequences at the time), so it won't reduce the 'first time offence' murder rate either.

So, all you're left with is the punishment aspect. I can accept the need for punishment, of course, and in the case of serious crimes I have no problem with increased sentences, but it's not a solution to anything in the long term. I see demands for capital punishment as symptomatic of the same problems in society that cause so much of the violent crime. People are brought up to see violence as a legitimate solution to their problems. That might be the problem of how to solve an argument... How to get money... Or how to punish criminals.


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

But you're assuming that increasing the severity of sentences will result in a change to the status quo (i.e. a decrease in murders). There are two issues I see with that assumption. Firstly, repeat offenders make up a tiny proportion of murders, so capital punishment (or more full life sentences) simply can't have a significant effect on the murder rate. Secondly, capital punishment hasn't been proven to be a deterrent (probably because most murders aren't pre-meditated, so the perpetrator isn't thinking about the consequences at the time), so it won't reduce the 'first time offence' murder rate either.

So, all you're left with is the punishment aspect. I can accept the need for punishment, of course, and in the case of serious crimes I have no problem with increased sentences, but it's not a solution to anything in the long term. I see demands for capital punishment as symptomatic of the same problems in society that cause so much of the violent crime. People are brought up to see violence as a legitimate solution to their problems. That might be the problem of how to solve an argument... How to get money... Or how to punish criminals.[/quote]

the stats stated 41 murders were carried out by repeat offenders and that feel significant (but it would if it was just one to be honest). Guess I am hoping rather than assuming :? I go back to my 'revenge' piece and banging them up until they have just one or two marbles floating around, or hanging them to ensure the punishment fits the crime, feels preferable to doing nothing. I understand the violence in society piece and have brought my own son up with similar values, but regardless of what we are doing and saying to our kids to ensure they do the right thing, there is a massive portion of society who appear to be doing the opposite and taking advantage of our well meaning kids and their well meaning parents. I just want to protect the ones I love from the scum who are walking the streets after 7 - 14 years for killing someone.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

BrianR said:


> the stats stated 41 murders were carried out by repeat offenders and that feel significant (but it would if it was just one to be honest). Guess I am hoping rather than assuming :? I go back to my 'revenge' piece and banging them up until they have just one or two marbles floating around, or hanging them to ensure the punishment fits the crime, feels preferable to doing nothing. I understand the violence in society piece and have brought my own son up with similar values, but regardless of what we are doing and saying to our kids to ensure they do the right thing, there is a massive portion of society who appear to be doing the opposite and taking advantage of our well meaning kids and their well meaning parents. I just want to protect the ones I love from the scum who are walking the streets after 7 - 14 years for killing someone.


I thought your stats seemed a little unlikely, so I looked it up. Of the 619 murders committed in 2009/2010, two of them were committed by people who had previously been convicted of murder. This makes sense, considering most murderers will spend half their life in prison, not leaving much time to kill anyone else. I wouldn't be surprised if most years there are no cases like this (I've not seen the stats for other years though).

I don't know where your stats from, but I suspect they're referring to people who commit _a_ crime then go on to commit murder. Capital punishment would make no difference to anything in these cases.

With such a low number of murder re-offences, there's actually a very real risk that the number of innocent people you execute per year is greater than the number of lives you save by stopping re-offending.

<edit>Oh, and the murder rate has been steadily falling over the last ten years, with rates now about what they were in in late eighties/early nineties.


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

Well another deliciously engaging and controversial moral argument. In some ways predictable but always engaging. It runs from the expression of natural emotion, through having moral contradictions pointed out to a real in depth discussion on the purpose of punishment and the effects of change.

My own view, in terms of natural justice, would be that I wouldn't feel sad for the guilty if they accidentally got crushed by a falling piano but I would be concerned about the surety of their guilt and the safety precautions of hoisting pianos when considering innocent bystanders.

Which leads me onto my controversial but logically provable point; that anyone who argues for the state adoption of capital punishment, by practical definition, condones the killing of innocent people.


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

John-H said:


> Well another deliciously engaging and controversial moral argument. In some ways predictable but always engaging. It runs from the expression of natural emotion, through having moral contradictions pointed out to a real in depth discussion on the purpose of punishment and the effects of change.
> 
> My own view, in terms of natural justice, would be that I wouldn't feel sad for the guilty if they accidentally got crushed by a falling piano but I would be concerned about the surety of their guilt and the safety precautions of hoisting pianos when considering innocent bystanders.
> 
> Which leads me onto my controversial but logically provable point; that anyone who argues for the state adoption of capital punishment, by practical definition, condones the killing of innocent people.


Ah another worthy opponent :lol: I guess you could say that anyone who argues against the state adoption of capital punishment allows the gulity to escape the full force of the law. If killing isn't a good, ethical or constructive way to prevent murder and tyrrany, why then are so many of our troops taking every opportunity to seek out and kill the Taliban? A bit selective aren't we? Oh god I just took things in a whole different direction :lol:


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

John-H said:


> Well another deliciously engaging and controversial moral argument. In some ways predictable but always engaging. It runs from the expression of natural emotion, through having moral contradictions pointed out to a real in depth discussion on the purpose of punishment and the effects of change.
> 
> My own view, in terms of natural justice, would be that I wouldn't feel sad for the guilty if they accidentally got crushed by a falling piano but I would be concerned about the surety of their guilt and the safety precautions of hoisting pianos when considering innocent bystanders.
> 
> Which leads me onto my controversial but logically provable point; that anyone who argues for the state adoption of capital punishment, by practical definition, condones the killing of innocent people.


John my fault yet again sir............have fun :lol:


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## Bung (Jun 13, 2011)

BrianR said:


> John-H said:
> 
> 
> > Well another deliciously engaging and controversial moral argument. In some ways predictable but always engaging. It runs from the expression of natural emotion, through having moral contradictions pointed out to a real in depth discussion on the purpose of punishment and the effects of change.
> ...


Of course some of the guilty will escape the full force of the law, they always have especially if you can afford the law I really don't get your point other than on one side it's ok for innocents to be wrongly executed and on the other that some of the guilty wil slip through the net. There is no perfect system there never will be one but I believe that there are far greater injustices in this world than singular cases of people escaping the full force of the law.

I think you will find that most people who are against the death penalty also don't buy into the whole "middle east is terrorist haven" bullshit that has been shoved down our throats for the last ten years. The Taliban never were a threat to the people of the United Kingdom to believe otherwise is laughable. We as a people seriously need to question and harass our governments more as we have been killing innocent men women and children along with the USA for a long time, but hey as long as they're brown and over there who cares right?


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

i personally do not belive we should be over there in any way shape or form.......we are the invaders and need to backoff. not sure the Taliban is the way to go either as they were not the nicest folk to run a country


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## Gforce (May 10, 2011)

Bring our boys back 100%


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

Gazzer said:


> John-H said:
> 
> 
> > Well another deliciously engaging and controversial moral argument. In some ways predictable but always engaging. It runs from the expression of natural emotion, through having moral contradictions pointed out to a real in depth discussion on the purpose of punishment and the effects of change.
> ...


I bet you buy the biggest fireworks on bonfire night Gazzer - watch out for the one that says light blue touch paper and run like mad!


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

John i always do the fireworks for the grandkids and am fully aware of that blue bit bud.......... 8)


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

BrianR said:


> Ah another worthy opponent :lol: I guess you could say that anyone who argues against the state adoption of capital punishment allows the gulity to escape the full force of the law.


I don't think I understand your point. The 'full force of the law' doesn't include capital punishment, so no one is currently escaping it. Convicts are sentenced within the permissible limits, and judges take the severity of the crime into account to do this. Some receive the 'full force' of the permissible sentence, while others receive the minimum - that seems to me to be the whole point of having maximum and minimum sentences for any given crime. You keep mentioning the 'status quo', but the fact is the murder rate is steadily reducing, so I'm not sure that maintaining the status quo is such a bad thing. That's one downward trend we should all be happy with.


BrianR said:


> If killing isn't a good, ethical or constructive way to prevent murder and tyrrany, why then are so many of our troops taking every opportunity to seek out and kill the Taliban? A bit selective aren't we? Oh god I just took things in a whole different direction :lol:


I'm not being selective, because I don't agree with the military action in Iraq and Afghanistan either. I also think you'd struggle to find many people (in this country) who think our troops should be there, regardless of their views on capital punishment.


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