# Kate McCann guilty of abduction?



## Molehall

According to BBC news Kate McCann is about to be made a suspect in the abduction of Madelaine McCann. So all those who hoped that she'd burn in hell are starting to get their wish. I means it's not good to be accused of abducting your own child.

Now I'm not a detective, but there's just one thing that puzzles me. If Kate McCann did the crime, what did she do with the body?

Maybe she had an accomplice? That's it, she had a secret lover who she persuaded to abduct her own child in order to sell it to a paedophile ring.

Whilst the Kate McCann haters may believe this scenario, I don't. She's being set up by a bunch of incompetent clowns, who are looking for a scapegoat.


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## mighTy Tee

Either the McCann family are all bloody good liars which will shatter the illusion of being a a model family with high Christian and moral values which has been portrayed for the past 4 months, or the Portuguese police are clutching at straws.

Not being funny but the parents should have been subjected to this sort of interview (interviewed separately) in early May in order to prove their innocence, the problem is the Portuguese police have been slow in responding and their investigation has been way short of that which we would have expected here in the UK.

I only hope they are not framed. I understand the interviews are being done through an interpretor who could put a different emphasis on a casual and innocent comment.

However IF the McCann family are guilty (my feeling is they are innocent), then hopefully their guilt will be found and they will be dealt with harshly by the courts.


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## saint

It's a terrible thing to have happened to 1) Madeline and 2) the family (as a whole). Regardless of what happens with the investigation into the disappearance of the child these people made a huge misjudgement, they are supposedly intelligent professional people, who in their right minds would leave 3 unattended under-fours in an appartment which was obviously not secure!!?

This is the feeling of guilt of that neglect that they will have to endure for the rest of their lives - I have no sympathy for them in this respect.


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## Private Prozac

Molehall said:


> Whilst the Kate McCann haters may believe this scenario, I don't.


I don't think you'll find that they are haters, more that they are concerned that the parents should be so neglectful as to leave 3 kids on their own in the first place!

IMHO ~ If it had happened to you, wouldn't you appear to be a bit more frantic and concerned than they've appeared throughout? :?


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## Molehall

The McCanns were stupid, neglectful, idiots and I have no doubt that they are paying the price for their stupidity.

On this and other forums there have been people saying "I hope the McCanns burn in hell" or similar.

I just find that rather harsh.

I think that some people forget that that it was the abductor who actually committed the crime and maybe the abductor should have his/her place reserved in hell long before the McCanns.

Anyway assuming the "Kate McCann is now a suspect" story is true, the Kate McCann ill-wishers are getting their wish. I just hope that they never make even the tiniest of mistakes in their lives.


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## Molehall

These are the sort of people who should burn in hell.......

Couple jailed over baby torture

Ikram (l) and Parveen were both found guilty 
A couple have been jailed for nine years for abusing a 17-month-old boy who was sliced with a knife and burned with cigarettes. 
Sumairia Parveen abused her stepson Tahla Ikram before his death in 2006.

Parveen, 24, and the child's father Abid Ikram, 30, from west London, were convicted of causing or allowing the child's death at an earlier hearing.

Ikram received a further 12 months at Southwark Crown Court for perverting the course of justice.


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## Private Prozac

Molehall said:


> I think that some people forget that that it was the abductor who actually committed the crime.....


Well, you know more than the Police then!



Molehall said:


> Anyway assuming the "Kate McCann is now a suspect" story is true,


How many links to news sites do you need? :?


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## Molehall

TT2BMW said:


> Molehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think that some people forget that that it was the abductor who actually committed the crime.....
Click to expand...

Well, you know more than the Police then!

Do you think I ought to get in touch with the Portugese Police and tell them?


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## Private Prozac

No mate. Don't spoil their fun!!


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## Multiprocess

According to Sky, Kate will be charged with accidential death of Madaleine.


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## Private Prozac

Madeleine: Mother 'Has Not Been Charged'
Updated: 15:43, Friday September 07, 2007

Police have finished questioning Kate McCann but are not charging her over the disappearance of her daughter Madeleine, according to Sky sources.
The news came as Gerry McCann arrived at the Portuguese police station to be questioned again.


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## DXN

FFS :?


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## s3_lurker

Promise of only 2 years inside if you say you killed the kid .....

:!:


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## saint

s3_lurker said:


> Promise of only 2 years inside if you say you killed the kid .....
> 
> :!:


Which is speculative bull crap - the law in Portugal has fixed penalties for certain types of crime - they are not negotiable


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## Ashtray_Girl

As someone has already said on here, how the hell could they sneak out in the night and move a body considering the press is watching their every move?!!! Also if they did do it, where would have the initial hiding place been, in the bushes of the resort or something? press and volunteers were all over the place at the time! it's not even like they knew the area that well

Also you'd have to be pretty cold hearted and a damn good actor to go oops i just killed my kid i'll hide the body then calmy return back to the table and carry on drinking with your freinds!

What about the hire car too, surely whoever had it before them should be looked into but not much has been said about that, ok it's a small possibility but even so with it being local hire car company it is possible.

makes you wonder whether it was one of their friends who did it, and maybe the fact that the sniffer dogs smelt a "scent of a corpse" on her, was because the scent had transferred from one of the friends who had recently hugged her or something...

can't see the motive really, if you killed your friends child or thought they were unconcious you'd rally everyone together and call an ambulance not think oh well i might as well dump the body!


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## mike_bailey

Whilst I still think they're not involved this piece of Daily Mail "speculation" of the questions likely to have been put to the mum by the police put me in Columbo mode a bit...

Why did you shout: 'They've taken her, they've taken her!' after returning from Madeleine's room on the night of her disappearance?
These were the words Mrs McCann was reported to have screamed as she ran back to the restaurant table in a panic. The police were intrigued by her use of the word "they".


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## Dotti

That abduction was planned without adoubt. Who else would have known those children were left alone in that room other than the McCanns and their 'friend'? Why only take Madleine and not all three children or the twins instead? Where or what was done with the twins in the presence of Madeleine being taken? Where is the body?  The parent's of that little girl are looking too 'well' also considering they have lost their daughter, especially Kate Mccann. Any distraught parent will start to look ill with worry and gaunt. I can't wait to see the outcome of this. :x


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## Toshiba

Abduction makes a good cover story.

Parent still should be charge with leaving the kids alone in the first place. If i left my kid alone and went out for a meal im sure the SS (social services) would deem me an unfit parent.


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## raven

Dotti said:


> The parent's of that little girl are looking too 'well' also considering they have lost their daughter, especially Kate Mccann. Any distraught parent will start to look ill with worry and gaunt.


What a ridiculuous thing to say - how can you make a judgement like that based on *your* assumption of what the parents should look like having lost their daughter?


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## Dotti

raven said:


> Dotti said:
> 
> 
> 
> The parent's of that little girl are looking too 'well' also considering they have lost their daughter, especially Kate Mccann. Any distraught parent will start to look ill with worry and gaunt.
> 
> 
> 
> What a ridiculuous thing to say - how can you make a judgement like that based on *your* assumption of what the parents should look like having lost their daughter?
Click to expand...

What's your judgement of how a mother, father or parents should look then when worried sick where their child is eh? :roll: The McCann woman hardly looks like she has lost sleep/drained/worn/tired/distraught and has been busy planning her next outfit to be seen in public :roll: Nothing ridiculous about what my view is just an observation.


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## KammyTT

just say you lived in a community with a pool and a bar, then you sat in ure back garden outside your (house), would you be declared unfit? its not as if they were a club is it.


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## saint

THey were not exactly as close as "back garden".

And I have you ever seen them cry?


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## Molehall

Dotti said:


> raven said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dotti said:
> 
> 
> 
> The parent's of that little girl are looking too 'well' also considering they have lost their daughter, especially Kate Mccann. Any distraught parent will start to look ill with worry and gaunt.
> 
> 
> 
> What a ridiculuous thing to say - how can you make a judgement like that based on *your* assumption of what the parents should look like having lost their daughter?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What's your judgement of how a mother, father or parents should look then when worried sick where their child is eh? :roll: The McCann woman hardly looks like she has lost sleep/drained/worn/tired/distraught and has been busy planning her next outfit to be seen in public :roll: Nothing ridiculous about what my view is just an observation.
Click to expand...

There was an interesting article in yesterday's Times (page 8 8/09/07). I quote a small part:

"When a parent loses a child, it is not uncommon for them to dissociate their previous selves and former lives from such a terrible trauma. In some cases they create a personality, becoming actors who play out a role or part............as a way of dealing with an otherwise intolerable event."

The whole article makes it quite clear that the McCanns are behaving quite "normally" and have discovered a method of protecting themselves from the very real possibility that Madelaine is dead.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 409952.ece

Some years back, the husband of a close friend of mine committed suicide. A day after the death a "so-called" friend started hassling my friend for monies (a couple of thousand quid) owed by her late husband. My friend was so angry at this behaviour that she didn't adopt the grieving widow role, but moved straight into anger mode. She had found a method of avoiding the fact that her husband was dead.

Whilst nothing is impossible, I believe that it is extremely unlikely that either McCann was involved in the abduction/murder of Madelaine.

Give me a plausable scenario of how the McCanns did it. What's the motive?


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## raven

Dotti said:


> raven said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dotti said:
> 
> 
> 
> The parent's of that little girl are looking too 'well' also considering they have lost their daughter, especially Kate Mccann. Any distraught parent will start to look ill with worry and gaunt.
> 
> 
> 
> What a ridiculuous thing to say - how can you make a judgement like that based on *your* assumption of what the parents should look like having lost their daughter?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What's your judgement of how a mother, father or parents should look then when worried sick where their child is eh? :roll: The McCann woman hardly looks like she has lost sleep/drained/worn/tired/distraught and has been busy planning her next outfit to be seen in public :roll: Nothing ridiculous about what my view is just an observation.
Click to expand...

I don't have a judgement of how they "should look" - that's the point. I actually think she does look like she is "drained / worn / tired / distraught" as you put it but I also think she behaves with dignity when in public. Would you prefer it if she was wailing all the time? Would that lessen her likelihood of guilt?

I hope you are never in a jury. "I could tell he did it, just by looking at him..." :roll:


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## PaulS

raven said:


> Dotti said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> raven said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dotti said:
> 
> 
> 
> The parent's of that little girl are looking too 'well' also considering they have lost their daughter, especially Kate Mccann. Any distraught parent will start to look ill with worry and gaunt.
> 
> 
> 
> What a ridiculuous thing to say - how can you make a judgement like that based on *your* assumption of what the parents should look like having lost their daughter?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What's your judgement of how a mother, father or parents should look then when worried sick where their child is eh? :roll: The McCann woman hardly looks like she has lost sleep/drained/worn/tired/distraught and has been busy planning her next outfit to be seen in public :roll: Nothing ridiculous about what my view is just an observation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't have a judgement of how they "should look" - that's the point. I actually think she does look like she is "drained / worn / tired / distraught" as you put it but I also think she behaves with dignity when in public. Would you prefer it if she was wailing all the time? Would that lessen her likelihood of guilt?
> 
> I hope you are never in a jury. "I could tell he did it, just by looking at him..." :roll:
Click to expand...

I hope not too. Dotti, what a perfect example you present of the unjustified, based on no facts whatsover, hate campaign against the McCanns :roll:

At this stage I still cannot believe that the McCans were involved.

The Portuguese Police messed up big time they are now under the spotlight as much as the McCans, its a media circus there, maybe the move to arguido status has got what the Police wanted - the McCans out of the country :?


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## DXN

Kate has looked dreadful in all the clips taken since the vanishing of her daughter.

:?

Its not as if she is after posh spice role is it. Yes shes not cyring now after 3 months, but I suspect she is STILL beating her self up inside every minute of the day

what people forget is that they were on holiday, they were with many other couples, who if the press are to belived are in on it too.

Lets get back to reality, couple on holiday, YES THEY MADE A TERRIBLE MISTAKE OF JUDGEMENT but having a child stolen (I believe) as a result is not justified.

I think they look great because lesser people would have crumbled by now. They are strong professional people 

what would you do? starve to death?


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## DXN

I agree, the Mccanns out of portugal is exactly what the police want

Out of sight out of mind


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## digimeisTTer

Something not right IMO the moment she gets officially named as a suspect - presto - back in the UK :roll:


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## PaulS

DXN said:


> I agree, the Mccanns out of portugal is exactly what the police want
> 
> Out of sight out of mind


Yes - and I think the 'cover up' everyone is talking about could actually be a Portuguese Police cover up, for their lax pedophile laws ... I heard they are not nearly as strict as ours :?

Just hope the focus gets back on finding Madeline.


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## Leg

Im told today that before they left these very young children 'home' alone to go out for dinner the same children had been in a creche all day.

Is this true? Hardly caring, loving parents eh? Personally I go on holiday to spend as much time as possible with my kids, isnt that the point?

Murder? Abduction? I have no idea if they are guilty. Being shit parents, guilty as charged if the above is true IMO.


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## DXN

'told' by who?

if true, is that a crime?

their parenting skills is not the issue


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## Leg

DXN said:


> 'told' by who?
> 
> if true, is that a crime?
> 
> their parenting skills is not the issue


Wife saw it discussed on the news, I just wasnt sure if this was one news channel saying this or generally known, seems the latter is true.....

Just done some searching on the net and it appears they put the children in a creche in the morning, then had lunch with them, then put them back in the creche for the afternoon and then, obviously, they were left alone in the apartment with the patio doors unlocked for the evening.

Loving, caring parents eh. :roll:

IMO their parenting skills and attitude towards their children is specifically the issue, had it been better it wouldnt have happened. I mean, who the hell puts 2 and 3 year olds who are on a 'family holiday' in a creche all day then leaves them 'home' alone. If that is right and fair in anyones book then I am afraid we live in vastly different worlds. I wouldnt even do that with my 9 and 7 year olds, much less when they were 2 and 3.


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## Dotti

I will say it again. There were three people who checked on those little children and who would have known that all three of those children were alone, unsupervised with nobody to look after them or their needs in that room. Madeleine went missing between being seen by the friend and the mother!

Another question that possibly could beg is did the hotel have CCTV? Equally what good, fit parent in their right mind would leave children alone at these ages also? Bet nobody on this forum has! Got nothing to do with a hate compaign to the McCanns, but the sheer principle of their irresponsibleness and lack of caring behaviour of assuming 'they would be alright' because they clearly didn't want a winging wining child or children at dinner with the selfish twats :roll:


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## DXN

so, wife told you

does that stand up in court

yes, I agree they may have left them home alone but that was a big and (in my mind) wrong decision, but how many parents have done this. The problem is the world is a sad place and as you say we are all different but at the end of the day do 'WE' (me and you) as parents expect to have a child taken as a result of bad parenting.


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## mike_bailey

Perhaps they owed somebody money or were being blackmailed prior to the holiday and the abduction was to settle the score - might account for the reported (and probably untrue TBH) "'They've taken her" plea from the mother. Maybe the police were so sure that Maddie was alive early on because the the abductors had been in touch with them. Maybe the evidence in the car and room was planted by the abductors. Also, perhaps the Portugese police thought mistakenly that the McCanns car was hired before the abduction and found out it wasn't only after the press reported it but are too proud to admit it. Also, the US government orchestrated 911 by detonating Lord Lucan and Shergar under the twin towers :roll:

Only trying to make sense of this weird case but I'm still convinced personally that they didn't really have anything to do with it.


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## Leg

DXN said:


> so, wife told you
> 
> does that stand up in court


Well, as Iposted above if you cared to read it with your eyes open, she did indeed tell me...that she saw it on the news.

Is there a legal case going on to establish whether she did indeed see it on the news that I am unaware of? Are you calling her a liar? If so, seen as (as I also posted) other sources have reported the same and therefore I think its a given that she did indeed 'see it on the news' then Im pretty confident Ill win the case.



DXN said:


> yes, I agree they may have left them home alone but that was a big and (in my mind) wrong decision, but how many parents have done this.


Not many ill wager, certainly not me. Regardless of the child's safety, how about actually wanting to be with your kids? I dont know about you but when I am on holiday my first objective is to spend 100% of my waking time with my wife and kids, together enjoying ourselves without jobs to do around the house, work and other distractions.



DXN said:


> The problem is the world is a sad place and as you say we are all different but at the end of the day do 'WE' (me and you) as parents expect to have a child taken as a result of bad parenting.


Expect the child to be taken? No

Expect the *odds *of the child to be taken if left alone in an unlocked apartment? Yup.


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## Molehall

I don't know how many kids are abducted whilst on holiday, but I suspect it's very, very few. I think there was one poor child (still missing) taken in Greece about 15 years ago. I can't remember any other case.

On the other hand 30 British babies/tots have drowned whilst on holiday abroad over the last 6 years (statistics from RoSPA). The number of babies/tots that drown each year in UK is considerably higher.

So, whilst we're on a 'less than perfect' parent bashing trip, let's have a go at all the parents of the drowned toddlers, who obviously took their eyes of the ball whilst their kid drowned.

It's easy to be harsh about other people's mistakes when you're Mr and Mrs Perfection, but the rest of us mere mortals, whilst not condoning the McCann's actions, tend to show compassion and mercy.


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## saint

> Lets get back to reality, couple on holiday, YES THEY MADE A TERRIBLE MISTAKE OF JUDGEMENT but having a child stolen (I believe) as a result is not justified.
> 
> I think they look great because lesser people would have crumbled by now. They are strong professional people


It's a consequence - not a result.

Those strong professional people, both in positions that demand clarity of judgment ..... do they have no common sense?

There have been a few cases of "home alone"s in the past few years... people have ended up in court over them..... and what about the twins.... am sure someone somewhere will be thinking about social services.


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## zedman

Molehall said:


> It's easy to be harsh about other people's mistakes when you're Mr and Mrs Perfection, but the rest of us mere mortals, whilst not condoning the McCann's actions, tend to show compassion and mercy.


very true


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## Private Prozac

At least they've made their first decent decision in coming home because, apparently, if they remaining in Portugal and were charged the twins would be taken into temporary custody.

It doesn't boil down to 'compassion and mercy'. It boils down to the fact that a child is missing, mainly contributed to by the neglect of the parents, and things just don't stack up.

Why did she wash Maddie's little rabbit toy _after_ she had gone missing?

Too many questions and not enough answers so far.


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## raven

Leg said:


> when I am on holiday my first objective is to spend 100% of my waking time with my wife and kids, together enjoying ourselves without jobs to do around the house, work and other distractions.


So what about when you're at home? Do you spend 100% of your waking time with your kids then? What if the the McCanns were at home and the kids were playing in their garden and Madeleine went missing? Would you be as judgemental then?

They clearly felt save and comfortable in the holiday resort environment and didn't think it dangerous to leave their kids alone. This was a huge mistake and I'm sure that nobody more than the McCanns believes this. The crime here however is the abduction of the child, not the fact that the children were left alone.


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## Leg

raven said:


> Leg said:
> 
> 
> 
> when I am on holiday my first objective is to spend 100% of my waking time with my wife and kids, together enjoying ourselves without jobs to do around the house, work and other distractions.
> 
> 
> 
> So what about when you're at home? Do you spend 100% of your waking time with your kids then? What if the the McCanns were at home and the kids were playing in their garden and Madeleine went missing? Would you be as judgemental then?
> 
> They clearly felt save and comfortable in the holiday resort environment and didn't think it dangerous to leave their kids alone. This was a huge mistake and I'm sure that nobody more than the McCanns believes this. The crime here however is the abduction of the child, not the fact that the children were left alone.
Click to expand...

There is a huge difference between my back garden which is secure (because I made it so for specifically this reason and for general house security) and a holiday apartment, at night, which isnt locked. Also, nope, I can honestly say we never, ever left my sons alone anywhere other than tucked up in bed when they were 2, apart from my own feelings on the matter my wife wouldnt dream of it. Bit different now they are 9 and 7 but even now when my lads play out on our cul de sac out front I go and clean the car or do some gardening out front. Yes its inconvenient but frankly, I cant relax inside the house when they are out of sight out front anyway.

What if a fire had started? It isnt just about abduction, parents have a responsibility that comes before everything else in life, purely my opinion but thats how my wife and I feel as do others on here and I would happily bet, most of the country.

People keep saying (well 2 people now) that what the McCanns did wasnt the crime but that the abduction was. Of course the abduction was but it cannot be denied that leaving children of that age alone in an unlocked apartment is, if not a legal crime, most definately an ethical crime.


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## PaulS

Leg said:


> People keep saying (well 2 people now) that what the McCanns did wasnt the crime but that the abduction was. Of course the abduction was but it cannot be denied that leaving children of that age alone in an unlocked apartment is, if not a legal crime, most definately an ethical crime.


I agree with you.

However, people here :roll: accusing the McCans of being 'selfish twats' and involved in the abduction because 'they look too well' is utterly ludicrous! [smiley=stupid.gif]


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## Carlos

What Leg wrote I could have written myself, word for word. I could not agree more.

As for them not being selfish twats, leaving your children in an unlocked apartment while you swan off for the evening with your mates (presumably so you can have a fine time without being pestered by children) is about the *most *selfish act I can think of.

But I still don't reckon they did it.


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## Molehall

It has been suggested by the Perfect Parent brigade that the social services should deal with the McCanns and possibly even take their other two children away.

I quote from today's Evening Standard,"........the McCanns were with three other couples, all of whom had, like them, settled their children into their holiday apartment for the night before going to a nearby restaurant for dinner".

So should the social services get involved with the other three couples too? Or should we stick to just hating the McCanns and leave the others alone?

Anyone who has read about the Stanley Milgram range of social experiments will know how powerful group behaviour is and how most human beings adapt to the group norm. That's what humans do and intelligence is not a factor.



Leg said:


> Bit different now they are 9 and 7 but even now when my lads play out on our cul de sac out front I go and clean the car or do some gardening out front. Yes its inconvenient but frankly, I cant relax inside the house when they are out of sight out front anyway.
> 
> .


When I was kid, from about 6 years old onwards, I was chucked out of the house after breakfast and, apart from a quick food replenishment at lunch, often didn't see an adult until return to base in the late afternoon. That's what all the kids did in my village. Maybe it was wrong, but that's what everyone did. If it was wrong, the social service department in my neck of the woods needs to dramatically expand as kids are still wandering around by themselves.

Personally I think it's a parental decision and neither is right or wrong.


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## Leg

Molehall said:


> When I was kid, from about 6 years old onwards, I was chucked out of the house after breakfast and, apart from a quick food replenishment at lunch, often didn't see an adult until return to base in the late afternoon. That's what all the kids did in my village. Maybe it was wrong, but that's what everyone did. If it was wrong, the social service department in my neck of the woods needs to dramatically expand as kids are still wandering around by themselves.
> 
> Personally I think it's a parental decision and neither is right or wrong.


I was too, then again they used to make 7 year olds work in factories and down pits. Your point is?

As for it being a parental decision as to whether it is right or wrong, lets apply that to using a belt to punish kids too eh, or even better lets expand the attitude to wives too and re introduce the rule of thumb. :roll:


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## HighTT

Dashed into the Post Office late this afternoon (Jansel Square Paul) and
parked alongside an MPV with three small children it it.
When I got out my car I realised that the engine was running and so I checked to make sure that the (woman :lol: ) driver was not going to hit my TT when reversing out of her space.
But there was NO adult in the car with the children; the engine was still running when I returned afterwards, and I was then hoping to give the mother a Boll*cking if I saw her .......

...... it was a very large bloke :roll: so I said nothing to the Fu(king Stupid Thoughless Careless C*nt :twisted: :evil: :twisted: :evil:


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## NaughTTy

HighTT said:


> Dashed into the Post Office late this afternoon (Jansel Square Paul) and
> parked alongside an MPV with three small children it it.
> When I got out my car I realised that the engine was running and so I checked to make sure that the (woman :lol: ) driver was not going to hit my TT when reversing out of her space.
> But there was NO adult in the car with the children; the engine was still running when I returned afterwards, and I was then hoping to give the mother a Boll*cking if I saw her .......
> 
> ...... it was a very large bloke :roll: so I said nothing to the Fu(king Stupid Thoughless Careless C*nt :twisted: :evil: :twisted: :evil:


You left your TT unattended in Jansel Square   :lol: :wink:


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## HighTT

Funny you should say that Paul; I would usually take my wife's Focus or
my V*lv* estate to go somwhere like Jansel Square, but leaving my house at 4.50 pm - the TT gave me the best chance of getting two very important Special Delivery items despatched today :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Molehall

Leg said:


> Molehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> When I was kid, from about 6 years old onwards, I was chucked out of the house after breakfast and, apart from a quick food replenishment at lunch, often didn't see an adult until return to base in the late afternoon. That's what all the kids did in my village. Maybe it was wrong, but that's what everyone did. If it was wrong, the social service department in my neck of the woods needs to dramatically expand as kids are still wandering around by themselves.
> 
> Personally I think it's a parental decision and neither is right or wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> I was too, then again they used to make 7 year olds work in factories and down pits. Your point is?
> 
> As for it being a parental decision as to whether it is right or wrong, lets apply that to using a belt to punish kids too eh, or even better lets expand the attitude to wives too and re introduce the rule of thumb. :roll:
Click to expand...

Working down pits, beating wives/children is hardly comparable to allowing children to play unsupervised. IMO it's trite to compare them. My point is that I'm not so judgemental that I condemn anyone who doesn't think exactly like I do.

However I do stand up for the McCanns, who having lost a child, are firstly cast as villains and then as child murderers. The first part of my previous post asked why the other couples in the same party aren't also being villified.


----------



## Leg

Molehall said:


> Leg said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Molehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> When I was kid, from about 6 years old onwards, I was chucked out of the house after breakfast and, apart from a quick food replenishment at lunch, often didn't see an adult until return to base in the late afternoon. That's what all the kids did in my village. Maybe it was wrong, but that's what everyone did. If it was wrong, the social service department in my neck of the woods needs to dramatically expand as kids are still wandering around by themselves.
> 
> Personally I think it's a parental decision and neither is right or wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> I was too, then again they used to make 7 year olds work in factories and down pits. Your point is?
> 
> As for it being a parental decision as to whether it is right or wrong, lets apply that to using a belt to punish kids too eh, or even better lets expand the attitude to wives too and re introduce the rule of thumb. :roll:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Working down pits, beating wives/children is hardly comparable to allowing children to play unsupervised. IMO it's trite to compare them. My point is that I'm not so judgemental that I condemn anyone who doesn't think exactly like I do.
> 
> However I do stand up for the McCanns, who having lost a child, are firstly cast as villains and then as child murderers. The first part of my previous post asked why the other couples in the same party aren't also being villified.
Click to expand...

The point I made clearly was that just because it was done then (20, 30 years ago?) that doesnt make it right now. I cant make it any clearer.

Its not about thinking like I do, its common sense. Think on this. If they had left them in their house in the UK and gone over the road for dinner and the house had burned down with the kids in, dont you think by now they would have been charged with manslaughter or at least some crime? They are being treat like victims and the child is the only victim here, they decided of their own free will to do what they did, they arent stupid people, they considered the circumstances and risks and went ahead anyway.

You stand up for them, heres hoping the vast majority stand up for the kids.


----------



## Private Prozac

Leg said:


> You stand up for them, heres hoping the vast majority stand up for the kids.


Here - here.

First and foremost is the safety, well-being and hopefully life of Maddie. Were it not for the selfish actions of the parents we wouldn't be having this discussion now.

And whilst I don't agree with going away on holiday to stick your kids in a creche, at least that part of their holiday was supervised FFS!

I too was allowed to go out and play when I was a kid from morning until night but the world then was considered a 'safer' place than it is today. I wouldn't leave my kids alone in an environment they know, i.e. at home, for 30 minutes let alone in a strange room, in a strange building, in a foreign country. Kids become scared outside of their normal surroundings and who would be there to comfort them when that happened? Certainly not Mum or Dad because they were too busy enjoying themselves and pissing it up to hear/see/notice.

If you watch the news reports now, even the UK media are beginning to have doubts. Those that were previously fully supportive are now being very cautious with their opinions. If charges are brought against them, and they are found to be involved, then there are going to be a lot of people with egg on their faces.


----------



## saint

Surely a kid being adbucted would scream - unless ofc she knew the person.


----------



## Molehall

Everyone loves to bash the McCanns.

Why isn't anyone having a go at the other parents at the same dinner table, who also left their children alone unsupervised (as reported in yesterday's Evening Standard)?

And, if one group of parents were leaving their children unsupervised, maybe there were other groups of parents doing the same thing? Why not have a go at them too?

Whilst my previous paragraph is speculative, it's possible that quite a lot of parents at this resort were doing the same thing. Why don't the McCann bashers have a go at them too? In fact any parent who went to that Mark Warner resort is probably pretty dodgy?


----------



## Private Prozac

Why do you keep harping on about everyone being McCann bashers?

I think your so called 'McCann bashers' are more concerned with the safety and welfare of that poor little girl and not content on bashing. Why do you have so much love for them? We probably would be having a go about the other parents if their kids were 'abducted' as well.

Don't tar me with your bashing brush. I just think that there's too much that doesn't add up. Guess we'll find out, one way or the other, soon enough! :?


----------



## Leg

Molehall said:


> Everyone loves to bash the McCanns.
> 
> Why isn't anyone having a go at the other parents at the same dinner table, who also left their children alone unsupervised (as reported in yesterday's Evening Standard)?
> 
> And, if one group of parents were leaving their children unsupervised, maybe there were other groups of parents doing the same thing? Why not have a go at them too?
> 
> Whilst my previous paragraph is speculative, it's possible that quite a lot of parents at this resort were doing the same thing. Why don't the McCann bashers have a go at them too? In fact any parent who went to that Mark Warner resort is probably pretty dodgy?


They are all arseholes.

There, happy now?


----------



## Wallsendmag

Molehall said:


> Everyone loves to bash the McCanns.
> 
> Why isn't anyone having a go at the other parents at the same dinner table, who also left their children alone unsupervised (as reported in yesterday's Evening Standard)?
> 
> And, if one group of parents were leaving their children unsupervised, maybe there were other groups of parents doing the same thing? Why not have a go at them too?
> 
> Whilst my previous paragraph is speculative, it's possible that quite a lot of parents at this resort were doing the same thing. Why don't the McCann bashers have a go at them too? In fact any parent who went to that Mark Warner resort is probably pretty dodgy?


Maybe its because they haven't been everywhere you look for the last couple of months or swanning around Europe in a private jet or meeting the Pope !!!


----------



## Lisa.

I was fully absorbed in the newspaper/forsenic findings at the weekend and we were discussing the how, who, why ,whens of this case.

We didn't come to any conclusions, only lots more questions.

Add your own questions and answers.

1. Was Maddie was given a drug to induce sleep but was given too much and she was overdosed and died. She was already dead and removed when the McCanns went for their meal and the abduction story was a cover up.

BUT why would there be blood in the car?

2. Why didn't the other children stir if she was murdered in the room.

3 If the McCann's accidently killed her and concealed her body how did they manage to move it 25+ days later.

4. Why would they find blood in the car if Maddie had been abducted. Why was it there at all?

5. Why did Kate wash the toy? It would have smelt like Maddie before, and offered comfort but washing it would remove this and any evidence.

6. The Portuguese Police just want to come to a conclusion and they are the easiest to nail.


----------



## garyc

Not exactly










Eh?

All reports of blood in cars, dna, etc, are pure press speculation and supposition to feed the frenzy.

Portugese police have only just handed over file to prosecutors which contains info on DNA etc.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rtrs/20070911/tuk-uk-britain-girl-fa6b408_3.html


----------



## Leg

Oh no my daughter has been kidnapped!










Oh no Im going to get caught for murder!










Oh no Im an idiot why did I leave them unattended and go for dinner!










Jesus this constipation is killing me!

Take your pick....


----------



## garyc

:wink:

Time will reveal all.

:wink:


----------



## Wondermikie

Not safe for McCann sympathisers

http://forums.mirror.co.uk/viewforum.php?f=31


----------



## Molehall

Wondermikie said:


> Not safe for McCann sympathisers
> 
> http://forums.mirror.co.uk/viewforum.php?f=31


You're right...................it's the 21st century equivalent of Salem.


----------



## Private Prozac

My ex-wife has just texted me to say that:

Vauxhall have just released a new car called the McCann.

Room for 2 adults and a child in the boot.

Inevitable I suppose!! :?


----------



## Private Prozac

Wondermikie said:


> Not safe for McCann sympathisers
> 
> http://forums.mirror.co.uk/viewforum.php?f=31


God damn I love that site!


----------



## digimeisTTer

TT2BMW said:


> My ex-wife has just texted me to say that:
> 
> Vauxhall have just released a new car called the McCann.
> 
> Room for 2 adults and a child in the boot.
> 
> Inevitable I suppose!! :?


Shouldn't that be a Renault McCann?


----------



## Wondermikie

TT2BMW said:


> Wondermikie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not safe for McCann sympathisers
> 
> http://forums.mirror.co.uk/viewforum.php?f=31
> 
> 
> 
> God damn I love that site!
Click to expand...

Absolutely crazy isn't it, I was linked to it on Friday and was gobsmacked by some of the info and posts on there. It makes your posts here look like positively sympathetic.


----------



## Leg

Bloody hell, a few comments in here is one thing but a whole forum on it? Potty.


----------



## Private Prozac

digimeisTTer said:


> TT2BMW said:
> 
> 
> 
> My ex-wife has just texted me to say that:
> 
> Vauxhall have just released a new car called the McCann.
> 
> Room for 2 adults and a child in the boot.
> 
> Inevitable I suppose!! :?
> 
> 
> 
> Shouldn't that be a Renault McCann?
Click to expand...

It should I suppose but I quoted as she sent it mate. Don't want to upset her ......again!! :wink:

Wondermikie ~ It's plain bonkers. I'm like a kid in a sweet shop!


----------



## Molehall

Wondermikie said:


> TT2BMW said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wondermikie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not safe for McCann sympathisers
> 
> http://forums.mirror.co.uk/viewforum.php?f=31
> 
> 
> 
> God damn I love that site!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Absolutely crazy isn't it, I was linked to it on Friday and was gobsmacked by some of the info and posts on there. It makes your posts here look like positively sympathetic.
Click to expand...

Here's a post from the Mirror forum,

"_HANG YOUR HEADS IN SHAME. 
11.09.07, 6:56pm

How much gall does it take to accuse parents of killing their daughter, (accidentally or otherwise), when you can't be absolutely certain they did? How much disregard for compassion and decency does it take to risk making the nightmare of parents missing a child even worse while there is still room for doubt!?

The public are being fed contradictory bits and pieces. Evidence gossip and rumour all mix to make a salacious swill that is ravenously devoured and regurgitated by a greedy pack. No member of the public can be in a position where it has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt to them that these to people killed their daughter.

("something doesn't seem right" - "I wouldn't leave my kids and go partying" - "Kate can't meet the camera in the eye" - "they are Masons" etc etc, does not constitute proof.)

We all have opinions, doubts and theories. Of course we do. But to forego any kind of restraint and, (while doubt still remains), give vent to these publically like some mob pillorying offenders at the stocks is medievil and vile.

Someone has to think the unthinkable and in our society we pay people to do that dirty task. I support the police of both countries in their efforts to find out Madalein's fate even when that means investigating family members.

They (the Police) may have their reasons for throwing the pack the odd tidbit here and there but the relish at which these morsals are lapped up by the lynch mob is sickening.

The nutters are easy to spot. Typing in caps and using the royal "we" is always a dead giveaway = FACT.

But there are others: articulate people with apparant sophistication who can't resist the conceit of playing detective and nailing the parents. They have no more of a clue than the cranks and are as morally culpable, (probably more so given their intelligence). They just make their cause with that veneer of authority that education brings.

And why is it always those least worthy of it claim the moral high ground? I read with mouth agape when a forum poster who promotes herself as a concerned parent wrote...

"We haven't had this much fun since O.J. Simpson". 
Shame on you.

But there are others who caution restraint and ask for tolerance until the facts can be seperated from gossip and innuendo...

Elain, Mandz, MarkW and others you have been bruised and ridiculed. You always have. It was the same when you tried to stop the mob burning witches in europe or lynching blacks in america. That is your role. It would be easier to join the mob. It would take so much less effort to go with the flow. I repect you so much that you don't.

I hope for justice for Madaleine. If it transpires that her parents are guilty I want them punished with the full weight of the law. But whatever the outcome of this tragedy it does not excuse the actions of those baying for blood now!

When it was possible that the parents of a missing child did not kill her you publically villified them without care that you could be making a tragic situation worse. Shame on you!

It seems clear that the McCann children were left unattended. I have my views on this and will in no way try to defend that. This does not, (as some seem to think), make it open season for accusations of manslaughter or murder!

In answer to the inevitable small minded accusations against myself...

I am not a McCann. I don't Know the McCanns. I don't Know anyone who knows the McCanns. Until this news broke I had no idea there was such a family as the McCanns."_


----------



## Private Prozac

Yes, well done Molehall.

Must have taken you ages to scour the site to find that one amongst the majority such as this:

"After 4 months of watching ALL UK media descend into the very worst kind of sycophantic tabloid trash I switched off TV. I have not watched it in over 3 weeks.

I eventually had to Google to find any debate (within the UK) that was not hell bent on canonising the McCanns. I was beginning to think that I was seriously out of step with mankind.

My search led me to here....and only here.

I do not know if the McCanns are guilty of manslaughter or not but it seems this forum is one of the few places to even dare ask the question. We are entitled to ask questions. We are especially entitled when the media (including a channel that we pay for) is so transparently biased in its coverage. We are especially entitled to ask questions when it was the McCanns themselves that created and courted the coverage and asked us for our cash.

I condemned the McCanns from Day 1 for leaving their children alone and I am entitled to do so. It is disgusting and is also a criminal offence. I thought we were all supposed to be "tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime"...eh..new Labour? I was enraged when they showed no remorse for this and doubly so when the media told us that it was ok because "we have all done it". I would lock the McCanns up and throw away the key for that alone.

I have some issues regarding the whole affair. Dozens of children go missing every day and we neither know most of their names or, to be honest, care. We just think "what a pity" and move on with our lives. The way many people are talking about this little girl as though they personally knew her does not sit right with me and I have seen many comments reminiscent of Diana's death...."I cried for days on hearing the news" "You are always in my prayers Maddy darling" etc.

Ok, I believe this is genuine emotion for the most part but I am nervous of the way the media seems to be more and more in control of public conscience. They feed off it, influence it and often distort it. I am sorry for all the rotten things that happen all over the world. I resent being told which of these rotten things is the most important. I resent being told how I must feel. I resent the increasing "Everyone in the UK knows/believes/feelsl.......>> type of "journalism.

The BBC took down their Maddy online debate 4 days ago. It has not been seen since. (There was a lot of anti McCann feeling on it). Yesterday, according to its "Have Your Say" page the hot topic that forum members wanted to debate was Pakistans ex prime minster!! er...ok BBC.

The Mirror has kept this one alive and censored next to nothing. This forum is, imo, a decent one. A lot of concern, a lot of intellect, a lot of genuine seeking of the truth...and yes...a few loons...but I can deal with a few loons, I can't deal with 100% loon i.e. the UK Press May-Sep 2007 (and counting)."

:?


----------



## Wondermikie

There's one thing for sure - that forum is an eye-opener!

Personally, I don't watch the news usually, and I never pick up a newspaper of any description, so when I first saw the "Find Madeleine" campaign on TV I was shocked at the slickness of it, the marketing behind it, and what it had become. It did strike me as unusual, but nothing more than that.

Since then, I've kept an open mind on what has happened. I spent quite a bit of time on the Mirror forum over the weekend browsing the various posts, and yes it's obviously extremely anti-McCann, but if you manage to read between the lines there is a lot of interesting speculation on the site.

What really happened - who knows, but I would expect that over the next 2 or 3 weeks it will become a lot clearer one way or the other.


----------



## HighTT

digimeisTTer said:


> TT2BMW said:
> 
> 
> 
> Vauxhall have just released a new car called the McCann.
> 
> Room for 2 adults and a child in the boot.
> 
> 
> 
> Shouldn't that be a Renault McCann?
Click to expand...

It's a Renault 'McCann Cynic' :roll: :lol:


----------



## Private Prozac

[smiley=drummer.gif]


----------



## Leg

Did anyone in this thread accuse them of actually being the murderers?


----------



## vagman

Quick question re Kate McCann.

Would you :?:

:roll:


----------



## saint

Yes


----------



## saint

Would what? :roll:


----------



## Private Prozac

Yes.


----------



## Leg

Its a difficult question to answer, how many pints have I had?


----------



## GoingTTooFast

Yep. I wouldn't go to sleep afterwards though. Too scared.


----------



## saint

Leg said:


> Its a difficult question to answer, how many pints have I had?


Enough - but not too many!


----------



## phodge

vagman said:


> Quick question re Kate McCann.
> 
> Would you :?:
> 
> :roll:


NO!!!!


----------



## Leg

saint said:


> Leg said:
> 
> 
> 
> Its a difficult question to answer, how many pints have I had?
> 
> 
> 
> Enough - but not too many!
Click to expand...

Do I have to hang around for breakfast?


----------



## Dotti

phodge said:


> vagman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Quick question re Kate McCann.
> 
> Would you :?:
> 
> :roll:
> 
> 
> 
> NO!!!!
Click to expand...

Thats a shame, I was looking forward to watching  :wink:


----------



## saint

Leg said:


> saint said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leg said:
> 
> 
> 
> Its a difficult question to answer, how many pints have I had?
> 
> 
> 
> Enough - but not too many!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Do I have to hang around for breakfast?
Click to expand...

I'd check the fridge first......just make an excuse to go to the bathroom and take a diversion via the kitchen.


----------



## phodge

Leg said:


> saint said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leg said:
> 
> 
> 
> Its a difficult question to answer, how many pints have I had?
> 
> 
> 
> Enough - but not too many!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Do I have to hang around for breakfast?
Click to expand...

Do you think you'll wake up for breakfast??


----------



## Leg

phodge said:


> Leg said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> saint said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leg said:
> 
> 
> 
> Its a difficult question to answer, how many pints have I had?
> 
> 
> 
> Enough - but not too many!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Do I have to hang around for breakfast?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Do you think you'll wake up for breakfast??
Click to expand...

Hmm good point, Ill probably wake up, but Ill be on my own, she will be at the cafe down the street, the door will be open and my teddy will be on a shelf.


----------



## Molehall

For anyone who's a mere mortal, there's quite a good article in today's Times:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/commen ... 439235.ece

Don't bother to read it if you're the perfect parent, because you won't understand it.


----------



## garyc

Molehall said:


> For anyone who's a mere mortal, there's quite a good article in today's Times:
> 
> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/commen ... 439235.ece
> 
> Don't bother to read it if you're the perfect parent, because you won't understand it.


That's an interesting read and perspective on events and perceptions.


----------



## Karcsi

garyc said:


> Molehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> For anyone who's a mere mortal, there's quite a good article in today's Times:
> 
> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/commen ... 439235.ece
> 
> Don't bother to read it if you're the perfect parent, because you won't understand it.
> 
> 
> 
> That's an interesting read and perspective on events and perceptions.
Click to expand...

If only those threw stones who didn't live in glass houses...


----------



## garyc

The legal perspective on successfully prosecuting the Mcanns:

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/law/columnists/article2445831.ece


----------



## Private Prozac

They're a talkative lot on that Times site aren't they:

'Read all 4 comments'

Certainly a bit different to the vibrant Mirror Forum!


----------



## Leg

Someone sent me this today...










:lol:


----------



## Dotti

Leg said:


> Someone sent me this today...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :lol:


Thats bad but :lol:


----------



## GoingTTooFast

A slightly different slant on it all..

It wasn't me guv'nor


----------



## mighTy Tee

GoingTTooFast said:


> A slightly different slant on it all..
> 
> It wasn't me guv'nor





> Crime expert Mark Williams-Thomas believes there are far too many similarities between the two cases for it not to be a strong line of police inquiry.
> 
> Mr Williams-Thomas, a former detective who is now a child protection specialist, said: "I can't accept that Gerry and Kate as parents of the child could have been involved in her murder - even based on the fact that over 90% of murders are domestic-related.





> Joana Cipriano vanished from a village just seven miles from Praia da Luz, where Madeleine disappeared.


And then the Police beat confessions out of suspects:



> Joana's mother and uncle were jailed for her murder, but five police officers have now been accused of forcing false confessions out of them.





> Goncalo Amaral, who is number three in the Madeleine inquiry, and his officers have been accused of torture, omission of evidence and falsification of documents.





> After all, detectives managed to "solve" Joana's murder, and there was no body or weapon found.


So will the truth be found and or will there be a Portuguese miscarriage justice?

Only time will tell, but the whole case is IMO flawed.


----------



## Karcsi

mighTy Tee said:


> Only time will tell, but the whole case is IMO flawed.


No body, no witnesses, no evidence. Yep, a bit of a bummer really.


----------



## Molehall

According to my local cafe owner, Kate McCann definitely killed Maddie, because no normal mother would put make up on after her child had been abducted.

"I'm a mother and I know how an innocent mother would react", were her words to me!


----------



## mac's TT

Better watch, she may be talking from experience :wink:


----------



## garyc

Karcsi said:


> garyc said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Molehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> For anyone who's a mere mortal, there's quite a good article in today's Times:
> 
> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/commen ... 439235.ece
> 
> Don't bother to read it if you're the perfect parent, because you won't understand it.
> 
> 
> 
> That's an interesting read and perspective on events and perceptions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If only those threw stones who didn't live in glass houses...
Click to expand...

Aye! There go I, but for the grace of...etc


----------



## Molehall

TT2BMW said:


> They're a talkative lot on that Times site aren't they:
> 
> 'Read all 4 comments'
> 
> Certainly a bit different to the vibrant Mirror Forum!


At the latest count there's been a 750% increase in the numberof comments (that's 34 comments in total).


----------



## skydiver

Its my opinion that if the McCanns were not middle class and had appeared on the media in tracksuit bottoms and football tops then a lot more people would have questioned this saga before now.

The majority of the public would have also slated them for leaving the kids alone.

If you look at Gerry McCann's family on TV etc it is obvious they are working class, nothing wrong with that at all. However for Gerry to progress in his career and climb the social ladder as he has done takes a few talents. Those being able to change who you are in company at work and social situations and obviously being intelligent. This is exactly the type of person capable of the crimes the McCanns are being accused of.

Do I think they are guilty? Not sure but something is seriously not right with the whole sorry situation.


----------



## saint

^ hrm

Anyone is capable of a crime - takes no special talents whatsoever. Developing certain lifeskills does not accentuate the abbility to do so either!


----------



## skydiver

saint said:


> ^ hrm
> 
> Anyone is capable of a crime - takes no special talents whatsoever. Developing certain lifeskills does not accentuate the abbility to do so either!


Of course anyone is capable, what I was trying to put across is that to be able to do what they have been accused of takes a certain type of criminal. If you look at murderers that get away with crimes for some time or indeed serial killers they all have one thing in common, intelligence. They are also petty deceptive people.

At the end of the day its only my opinion.


----------



## DXN

this thread has gone a bit flat :roll:


----------



## Guest

DXN said:


> this thread has gone a bit flat :roll:


The butler did it.


----------



## Dotti

I'm sure this thread will soon pick up once we hear more news on the McCanns case :roll:


----------

