# The cost of growing old



## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

Just heard on the news about the plan to allow people to take out a loan to care for their family when they get old and which can be paid back once they pass on. WTF? And what if you dont have a family to take out a loan or they dont want to look after you? what happens if you dont have any savings or have invested in your own pension? What happens of you have lived on benefits most of your life sataying in a state funded council house? Oh I know, you go to the top of the pile , your family pay nothing, you pay nothing and as in younger days have access to all of the benefits for nothing.

It is only those who have worked all of their lives; paid tax and NI all of their lives ; made provision by funding a pension; created a legacy for their kids by spending most of their salary purchasing their house ; done all of things they were told by government that it was the right thing to do. They get old and *they* get f#ck all!! and by the way anything they do have is taken from them and put into the state purse to fund the things they have already paid for many many times over.It is a fucking disgrace !! Sell your house and rent, spend and enjoy the money on yourself and your family whilst you are fit to do that; and when your old join everyone else and get the lot for f#cking nothing.rant over


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## davelincs (Jan 1, 2010)

i agree 100% Brian , it really makes you wonder if it is worth going to work, trying to better your life , trying to finance you retirement
when millions of people get it all for not working and claiming every thing possible, and in most cases they are better off than many genuine people who have to live on the minimun wage


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## YELLOW_TT (Feb 25, 2004)

Well said that man


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

Spot on! They talk about 'everyone understanding that they have to make a contribution' - WTF I am making a contribution every month and have done for the last 35 years and will do for the next 20. Let me opt out and pay that money into an insurance fund that will cover any costs I may incur in the future. Don't ask me to pay twice - or ask me to burden my family, their potential lasting memory of me a load of debt placed on them (they are even saying interest will be charged). They already take 40% from my estate when I die through inheritence tax and now they want the rest. How can this be right or fair??? I am currently looking for jobs outside if the country, tax free and every penny of that tax I will be investing into a fund to help care for me so that my family don't have to. When I come home I will rent a place which I wont pay for, claim both my pensions , state and private and any money I have will be under the bed in a lock box (would rather take my chances with good honest theives, than the thieves who come dressed in pin stripe suits). They talk about not having enough money and in the next breath talk about sending billions to some tinpot country somewhere else. How can they not have enough money yet keep funding the citizens of other countries with money we have given to them?


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## YoungOldUn (Apr 12, 2011)

My mother in law spent the last 4-5 years of her life in a nursing home suffering from senile dementia along with another 29 elderly people. Out of the 30 residents only two had to fund their stay, my mother in law and 1 other. 
The other 28 where funded by social services because it was deemed that they had not enough savings/pension/house to pay themselves. The monthly bill for my mother in law was in region of £2,300 which over 4 years comes to a tidy sum. 
As has been stated, it makes you wonder who is has got the right idea work and save to have it all removed before you die or spend every penny and let someone else pay for your old age.


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## j8keith (Jun 26, 2009)

davelincs said:


> i agree 100% Brian , it really makes you wonder if it is worth going to work, trying to better your life , trying to finance you retirement
> when millions of people get it all for not working and claiming every thing possible, and in most cases they are better off than many genuine people who have to live on the minimun wage


+1, a culture of take,take,take ---- it appears that people who want to stand on their own two feet through their efforts are in the minority .


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## CWM3 (Mar 4, 2012)

Spot on Brian.

My Father fought for his country, ended up disabled for it, lived on his own until he went blind, managed another 5 years with a carer coming in because he did not want to become a burden to others, (not council supplied carer, as too far from the nearest town), then had to go into care, ended up having to sell his house (his only asset) to fund the 3K a month fees........... his only crime?, he paid all his dues and taxes until he stopped work at 70 and ponced off no one. Makes me sick the way so many just spend their life sucking off those that work.


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

Really sad stories for who were no doubt very proud people. My own mum passed a few years ago and my three sisters and I looked after her with minimal support from anyone; she constantly felt like a burden to us, when in reality she wasn't. At that age and in those circumstances people just want to live out their lives with a modicum of dignity; they dont want to feel like they are a burden and they don't want to see their childrens inheritence (everything they have worked for) going down the sink, whilst those who have made little or no sacrifice in their lives sit back and let the likes of the people mentioned in this thread pay for them too. I heard a saying recently and it went something like - 'you can measure a country's humanity in the way it treats its old people' - well not very humane then! Because this country robs the vulnerable, the very people who have contributed the most, have cost them nothing and worked the hardest. The government are laughing at us. There will be a revolution if this keeps up.


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## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

BrianR said:


> There will be a revolution if this keeps up.


Better start planning then because it's only going to get worse. The unassailable problem will be that the majority will be brainwashed by the likes of the Daily Mail and think of you as a rioter and blame you for all that's wrong with this country.

Sounds familiar huh?


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

> Better start planning then because it's only going to get worse. The unassailable problem will be that the majority will be brainwashed by the likes of the Daily Mail and think of you as a rioter and blame you for all that's wrong with this country.
> 
> Sounds familiar huh?


[/quote]

Spot on. Lets burn the daily mail and all those who read it :lol:


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

maybe future generations will look back and realise that the seeds for the revolution were started here - the TT Forum Flame Room a right hot bed for leftyness uprising comrades! :lol:


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## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

BrianR said:


> Spot on. Lets burn the daily mail and all those who read it :lol:


I have a lit match and a pile of explosive at the ready... :lol:


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

rustyintegrale said:


> BrianR said:
> 
> 
> > Spot on. Lets burn the daily mail and all those who read it :lol:


I have a lit match and a pile of explosive at the ready... :lol:[/quo

:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Mark Davies (Apr 10, 2007)

Devil's Advocate time.

We've got a problem. A big problem. We have an ageing population that's growing. Estimates suggest that 25% of those born today are going to live beyond 100. There's a massive social care bill on its way and successive governments have so far just buried their heads in the sand and avoided taking the potentially unpopular steps necessary to provide for it. It's getting to the stage that something has to be done.

There's a load of talk about how those who have provided for their old age have to pay while those who have sponged off the state all their lives get everything for free, but it actually isn't like that. The majority of people who find themselves relying on the state to provide for them in their old age have also worked all their lives, have also paid their taxes and NI. However because they've spent their entire working lives having to get by on minimum or generally shit wages and struggling to make ends meet they've never had enough money to put aside for a pension or for savings. They've never been able to get onto the property ladder and have had to rent all their lives so have no assets when they get older. They've always paid their way, never taken a penny from the state either - but because for their entire lives we have exploited their labour without paying them a dignified living wage they are left unable to look after themselves in retirement. In the real world (not the Daily Mail world) _these_ are the people in the rooms next to your parents not having to pay for it. Sure there are a minority in society who never work, but that's a whole issue of its own that needs sorting out, so let's not demonise _all_ those who don't pay for elderly care simply because it suits an argument.

The truth is there simply isn't enough money in the public purse to pay for everyone and there never will be, so what do we do? Now, should the rich bankers getting paid their millions in bonuses have their care in old age provided by the state, or perhaps do they have enough money to look after themselves? Would they accept the state provision anyway? Well, I think we can all agree that given we can't look after everyone then the rich can look after themselves. But where do we draw the line between who is rich and who isn't?

The thing is, in comparative terms, most of us are actually far better off than we imagine we are. We all tend to compare ourselves with those at the top and see that we're nowhere near them and think of ourselves as badly off. But very rarely do any of us compare ourselves with those at the bottom. You see, we don't see them in Hello magazine so too often don't have the first idea of how the lower end live. I see them every day and the reality is there are very many people (millions of them) who still go out to work every day but have bugger all. The reality is that we, the middle classes (and I'll presume we are all middle class because we can afford to buy and run a TT) are actually rather well off. So, given that there is so little money in the public pot to care for the elderly should that not be saved for those who simply cannot care for themselves while those of us who can look after ourselves do so?

Ultimately it has all got to be paid for and if it's not to be paid for out of the assets we've accumulated over our working lives then it would have to be done via much higher taxes during those working lives, making it much less likely that we'd have had those assets in the first place! I know I'd rather keep more of my money so that I can enjoy those assets during my life rather than never have them at all. Okay, I may need to sell them later when I need them less but that's just becoming a growing fact of life.

Ultimately our objections are relatively wealthy middle class people complaining about not being able to preserve all of the inheritances of our relatively wealthy middle class children, all at the expense of people living in relative poverty. In reality if we'd worked out the expenses of providing for ourselves throughout our entire lives we would have been spending years putting a large proportion of our salaries away into a saving fund to pay for our elderly care, and as a result we wouldn't have had the money to buy our houses and build up that inheritance in the first place. Few of us had that foresight so just like everyone else, we have failed to provide adequately for ourselves and have instead put our money into our assets. So personally I don't think providing a fat inheritance for our kids is sufficient reason to say we can't afford to provide for ourselves.

For me it's about facing up to the realities and exercising a bit of conscience. It's about understanding a principle that those who are able to look after themselves should do so while the state provides for those who can't. And of course there are those in society who _won't_ look after themselves, but that's an argument that extends across the whole welfare state at every stage in life. The bottom line that it comes down to is whether you support the idea of a welfare state or not. It's about whether you simply view your tax contributions as a savings plan and insurance scheme for your own personal needs or whether you see it as a redistribution of wealth to provide a more acceptable life for those at the lower end of society. If we think of it as the former then frankly we're never going to be happy with any solution, but if we have the latter view then we shouldn't complain about paying when we can and resenting the provision for those who cannot.


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

> The majority of people who find themselves relying on the state to provide for them in their old age have also worked all their lives, have also paid their taxes and NI. However because they've spent their entire working lives having to get by on minimum or generally shit wages and struggling to make ends meet they've never had enough money to put aside for a pension or for savings. They've never been able to get onto the property ladder and have had to rent all their lives so have no assets when they get older. They've always paid their way, never taken a penny from the state either - but because for their entire lives we have exploited their labour without paying them a dignified living wage they are left unable to look after themselves in retirement. In the real world (not the Daily Mail world) _these_ are the people in the rooms next to your parents not having to pay for it.
> The truth is there simply isn't enough money in the public purse to pay for everyone and there never will be, so what do we do? Now, should the rich bankers getting paid their millions in bonuses have their care in old age provided by the state, or perhaps do they have enough money to look after themselves? Would they accept the state provision anyway? Well, I think we can all agree that given we can't look after everyone then the rich can look after themselves. But where do we draw the line between who is rich and who isn't?


Hi mark, I agree with most of what you say and far be it for me to demonise anyone; I come from a very working class background and consider myself that today. But it isn't fair. Just made redundant with one weeks notice/ pay. I am eligible for nothing! I personally am fed up to the back teeth of keeping the tax low of those in low skilled jobs; I worked as a porter in a hospital for 6 years under the thatcher tory years. My last job was as Vice President for a major organisation (so it can be done, you can get out of a shit job on shit conditions, if you have the balls to do something about it. I am sick of the sob stories; the neediness; the reliance on the state and those who already pay a large chunk of tax. Now, when I am old and sick, they can take my home, which should be the legacy to my grandkids to ensure that they can have the chance to be all that they want to be, can go to university and not be burdened by the cost of that (afterall I have paid towards universities all my life and have never set foot in one) and not spend a life in shit jobs being a burden on other tax payers. Akternatively they can be unambitious, remain poor, pay very little tax or NI; get everything for free, their rent, prescriptions, spectacles etc etc etc and by the way be entitled to exactly the same level of care as those who are paying for the very service they are receiving. So I am not demonising anyone I am complaining at the unfairness of paying again, for everything I have already paid for.for the fact that not only will they take 40% inheritance tax from what leave but also want the rest to. Lets forget tax and insurance, allow me to put that aspect into an insurance fund for me and my family instead. At this stage I really dont want to pay for anyone else any more.


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## Mark Davies (Apr 10, 2007)

I hear you, but I guess my point is that we _haven't_ already paid for it once over. None of us have been paying enough money in our taxes over the years to provide enough funds to meet the future care needs of the elderly. We (or the governments we elect) have been aware of the problem but have taken a much too short-term view of it and have shied away from the necessary but unpopular tax rises that we needed. We're now only starting to address the problem when it's already too late and the only solution is going to be for those who can manage to look after themselves to do so.

The rest of what you say about the dependency culture is all very valid, but of course that encompasses far wider issues than just social care for the elderly. And we shouldn't be influenced by the Daily Mail scaremongering that would have us believe the country is being over-run by dole-sponging parasites. The people we are talking about are still a minority, though I agree, a significant and expensive one. There's no doubt that about 90% of public money gets spent on about 10% of the people.

Yes, the welfare system needs a major overhaul to remove the incentives not to work, but really before that can be effective we need to generate an economic environment where there is work for people to do. We also need to address cultural issues amongst the young who have grown up within an X-Factor, instant success mindset and seem unwilling to start at the bottom and work their way up as you have done. All those are complex issues which will take a great deal of time to resolve but sadly, as far as care for the elderly is concerned, we simply don't have the luxury of time any more.


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

> Yes, the welfare system needs a major overhaul to remove the incentives not to work, but really before that can be effective we need to generate an economic environment where there is work for people to do. We also need to address cultural issues amongst the young who have grown up within an X-Factor, instant success mindset and seem unwilling to start at the bottom and work their way up as you have done. All those are complex issues which will take a great deal of time to resolve but sadly, as far as care for the elderly is concerned, we simply don't have the luxury of time any more.


[/quote]yes can see that.

But I believe I have paid enough in, and I think a lot of other people have too - just the last 20 years on average I have paid between £20k and £35k a year in tax (+ NI). I think its abround £700k (I have been working for 35 years so another 15 years worth not captured). On top of that I have paid private health insurance for me and my family since my kids were born, we havent cost the state anything in that. My council tax is in one of the highst brackets. I have moved house a few times and paid the taxes involvd in that. I have paid plenty of VAT too. It never ends. I reckon I will have contribured about £1million by the time I retire. Now if that isnt enough I dont know what is? The government can find billions to support wars and prop up banks and other counries when they need to. I dont believe that there isn't enough, I think its a myth that we have been sold that keeps us where we are. As a country we are looking at paying for very littl in the future - no uni fees; health will likely be privatised; even pensioners bus passes and winter bonuses are at risk - so where is all of the money going to mate? I am blown if I know. It is why I am currently looking for work out of the country, totally sick of it; I will sell my home to my kids at some point for 1p, as long as I can live in it until I dont need to; I may even pay them a rent which I will claim and recieve no doubt. In this I will protect my legacy to my grandkids and at the same time take part in the benefits of everything for nothing (or in my case receive a fraction of what I have put in back). Not a daily mail reader; have a big background in social justice (I was shop steward at 20 and a conveynor at 24); so genuinely I care about the vulnerable and needy; its th rest I cant stand who I believe are laughing at us.


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## CWM3 (Mar 4, 2012)

+1 Brian, spot on view mate...same as you, worked for last 35 years and so far paid enough tax and NI to support a small country.....when I was made redundant 2 years ago, didn't even bother to look to the state, they don't help people like us, even though I contributed a decent share, so like any hardworking person, just recreated myself and again am paying in hugh lumps of money for the government to waste....totally agree with your point, was involved in the union movement for 32 years, in a belief that we can can create something better, but the simple fact is that the deserving poor don't get what they need, the super rich are isolated from everything, the working man in the middle takes all the stress and hits and funds most of it, and a growing underclass of ponces and shirkers are taking the piss out of the rest of us, couple that with Labours immigration experiment that went very wrong, even those that are deserving of our protection are now lumped in with the economic migrant ponces that are bleeding the country dry along with our homegrown underclass that have never done a days work.


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## YELLOW_TT (Feb 25, 2004)

The problem is not how much the government has to spend it is what it spends it how much aid did we give to India this year a country so hard up it has it's own space program a country that is taking our steel ship building call centre chemical and pharmaceutical jobs


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## Chubster (Feb 14, 2011)

My mother had a massive stroke 2 yrs ago,paralysed down one side and mind is stuck in the 1970's,lucky she transferred her house to me 15 yrs ago so those DSS shites couldnt touch it (7 yrs is the countback limit for those interested).
Just coming up to the £50k in nursing fees because her savings and pensions havent dropped below the £22.5k limit yet,after which DSS will pay X amount and I get stiffed with a £150 a month "top up fee" to keep her in the home she is.
I am literally fucking boiling over at the fact that not only has my mum's savings taking a battering but soon I have to stump up cash as well.What the fuck is going on these days?
Yes I own a TT but I am working class and have worked hard since I left school,signed on for 1 day then did a years YTS course for 25 quid a week.Coming up to 28 yrs as an electrician in the Steel Industry but outlook is grim for us in Port Talbot so I may lose my job,then I face up-rooting my mum to another home that doesnt charge a top up fee so that will be stress for her.
Yet ppl who didnt fucking bother to work,etc get their home fees served up on a fucking silver platter and they get every benefit possible.
My mother couldnt get fully funded NHS care even with a feeding tube because they changed the rules 2 months before !!!!
This country is fucked and is being run by the inmates of a large fucking asylum.
We are drowning under the weight of sponging immigrants,lazy bone idle british ppl and so called "travellers" who dont appear to do any fucking travelling.
God knows what it will be like when I hit 70+.......


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## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

Mark Davies said:


> Devil's Advocate time.


Okay Mark, can I play Devil's Advocate too?

You're a policeman right? You provide a service. You don't make, create or offer anything for sale. You 'manage' situations when things go wrong. So you don't create wealth you cost wealth. So you're an expense.

Then we have the bankers. They create wealth by earning commission or profits by buying and selling other peoples wealth or the wealth of companies in the form of stocks and shares. Like you they don't create or offer anything for sale other than what something is apparently worth or might be worth. They gamble on things being worth more than they pay for them. They sometimes win, they sometimes lose.

Then we have manufacturers. They make stuff to sell. So they buy in raw materials at a price, cut, mould, stitch and pump out something that they can sell for more than it cost to make. This pays the wages and salaries of those that produce it. All good.

Then we have the people that sell the products that the manufacturers make. They buy at an agreed price and gamble that they can sell to an end user for more. So they make a profit on each sale. That profit pays for the staff who sell, the rent, the taxes etc.

Then we have the people that work for the companies that manufacture goods, those that sell and those that are involved in marketing said products. They get paid a wage. As taxes, costs and expenditure on moving the manufactured goods goes up the profit margins are squeezed for the manufacturer who still has to pay for his outgoings or he faces no supply. If he can't pay he gets no raw materials. With no raw materials he can't make anything. If he can't make anything then his employees become an expense he can't cover. So then he gets rid of them.

In the meantime the employer, the employee, the raw material supplier, the marketeer, the toilet cleaner and everybody else reliant on the income of the company suffers. The taxes need paying, the council needs paying, the bills need paying, the fuel needs paying for, food needs to be paid for. Shall I go on?

So the banks, the councils, the government and every other financially non-productive 'authority' still expects payment.

The banks won't offer support (despite being propped up by the taxpayer) or lend money - at a profit to them. The government bumps up every tax and charge to help pay back the deficit, the power companies bump up their prices and the people expected to pay still have to find the money even though their incomes have shrunk.

You work for the police. You are paid by the taxpayer whether that money comes from the area police, the council or some other source. It is guaranteed no matter what happens to everyone else who generates, builds, contributes and sells product for this country. If they lose out you don't.

So please don't play the lawman with us. Yes you have a job to do. Yes you have to keep law and order and I would say you do your job well. I don't argue with that. But don't sit on the sidelines and pretend you know what it's like for the bloke who generates income for the economy. You have no idea. Just like the politicians who have zero business experience and view being a politician as a career for life. Just watching them in the House of Commons behaving as if they are in some public school common room makes me cringe. They are determining EVERYONE'S future and as such they should display the respect and common sense that responsibility demands.

Like them, you cost. You're an expense. Please don't forget you are a public servant, so like them please don't treat us like *we're* the servants. We provide the money to pay for every last single one of you.


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## Mark Davies (Apr 10, 2007)

Rusty, I'm really not quite sure what your rant is about, where it comes from or exactly what it is aimed at. You do seem to be trying to suggest that unlike all the other people and organisations you mention I don't actually contribute to society, but that's obviously rubbish. I provide a service, and while that may be intangible and not directly create any wealth that doesn't mean it isn't of value.

A guy comes and cleans your windows. He doesn't make anyone richer by doing so but is what he does worthless? If so, why do you pay him for it? You could level your argument at anybody who provides a service, and given manufacturing is only 40% of GDP you'd generally be arguing that the majority of the working people of this country are a waste of time and not contributing. Well that's not the case at all.

But I still don't get your point. I don't see how anything I've said in any way suggest you are some kind of 'servant' and I don't see how claiming to generate income for the economy makes anyone a special case. You seem to be suggesting that only people who actually make things have any idea of what it's like doing a day's work and paying taxes. What twaddle! We all go out and do a day's work, whatever it happens to be, and we all come home and pay our taxes and make our contribution to society.

You're welcome to come and try my job if you're brave enough - I'm sure your local force will be looking for specials - and then perhaps after that you can think again about whether I have any idea about what work is. And don't be naive in thinking policing is a job for life (as you seem to suggest). I assure you it is far more precarious than you can possibly imagine!


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## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

Mark, what part of...*'Yes you have a job to do. Yes you have to keep law and order and I would say you do your job well.' *...are you not understanding? Where on earth in that statement am I suggesting that you 'don't actually contribute to society'? You're right, it's rubbish.

I reiterate. Yes you have a job to do and I would say you do your job well. You and everyone else who provides a service, goes out to work every day, pays their taxes and contributes to society.

What my 'rant' is getting at is that 'services' - as provided by the likes of the police, councils, government etc are all expenses ie. they are costs paid from the taxes collected from those workers who initially create the wealth. If there were no workers generating income where do you think that money would come from?

We are currently in a position where workers cannot 'create' enough wealth to cover the expenses because the economic climate does not encourage it. Therefore the income to pay for the services is reduced but the costs are not.

So money is borrowed to cover the deficit. Governments have done it and we as individuals have done it. My question is, how on earth can we as a nation ever get out of that without generating more wealth?

You have suggested that as individuals we have not paid enough taxes to pay for our care as we grow old. My suggestion is that as a nation we have not managed this country's coffers very well and vast swathes of tax payers money has been wasted on pointless and expensive schemes doomed to failure. Do you recall the money wasted by the NHS on their IT system for example? Don't get me started on the G4S fiasco...

Every day we hear that there is no money for this, less money for that and every day we, as individuals are expected to contribute more or pay again for what we believed we had paid for already.

As individuals we are earning less in real terms whilst basic costs continue to rise. You advocate paying yet more from our incomes to cover the cost of care at the end of our lives.

All I am asking is how we as individuals can be expected to do that if our income is being nibbled and reduced at both ends of the scale?


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## Fab 4 TT (Sep 28, 2004)

Rusty, I'm on the same flightpath, but just a question.

What are we contributing for when we pay our taxes? Should full care for the elderly be provided for by the state whilst we have a huge national debt and we are also running a deficit. Even during the boom years I'm not really sure we as a nation were tackling the debt or the deficit. Maybe masking it, while piling on public sector pensions and PFI.

After paying for health care, the public sector, pensions, infrastructure, the army, is there really enough left in the kitty for elderly care? At the moment obviously not. Was there ever? I'd say no.

Should we be expected to use our parents estate to pay for their care? I feel we should.

Having read 'wasting police time' & 'inspector gadget' It has only cemented my skepticism, not of police officers, but of the direction successive governments have steered the service. The bureaucratic & regularity mentality has also infested my own industry. But without this service our manufacturing/banking/construction industry's would quite literally not exist. So it does play a part in creating wealth. If not so directly.


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## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

Fab 4 TT said:


> Rusty, I'm on the same flightpath, but just a question.
> 
> What are we contributing for when we pay our taxes? Should full care for the elderly be provided for by the state whilst we have a huge national debt and we are also running a deficit. Even during the boom years I'm not really sure we as a nation were tackling the debt or the deficit. Maybe masking it, while piling on public sector pensions and PFI.
> 
> ...


I don't expect that our taxes pay for anything. What I'm trying to say is that taxes, NI contributions etc are set by the government and we dutifully pay them. In return we expect to receive back what those taxes are supposed to provide for such as a free NHS, state pension etc.

I accept that there probably isn't enough in the pot to pay for everything and many of us secure our futures by additionally paying into private pensions and for healthcare. That is our freedom of choice.

But those that haven't - possibly because they're already struggling to make ends meet - can't be expected to give up their assets when they have already paid what was expected of them. That is rather like paying into a deposit account for 20 years, being told you will earn 5% interest but only receiving 1% when you go to collect. Someone has had use of that money for 20 years and not fulfilled their part of the bargain.

I'm not attaching blame to any one individual, group of people or successive governments. What I'm trying to establish is why the arrangements put in place are not providing and what can be done about it.


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

I tll you what; all of thise who think it its ok to sell your folks home to pay for their care, go ahead and do that. All of us who dont think that is right will abstain from that. Its really easy to take the view that its right and I think it is acceptance such as that that means the situation persists. there is always some dogooder who takes the so called sensible view; its the reason we have so much crap going on in our country today - prisoners with tellys and DVD's; muggers battering pensioners and getting 3 months stir; pedos raping kids and told to go home and be good; foreigners robbing our war graves; travellers parking wherever they see fit; gangs roaming our streets whilst our pensioners hide in their homes. All of those in the same queue as me for care when I grow old, I pay they dont. It is time for middle class in this country to get off their arses and say enough is enough - if we accept the status quo or encourage it as some here are doing then we deserve what we . Read the mails above, these are real people with real lives that are destroyed as a result of simply getting old, something that comes to us all in the end. I dont want my kids to remember me as someone who landed them with debt and worry and I have paid enough for that not to be the case. Its those who havent paid that should have that worry. Now thr bleeding hearts here will disagree and its the likes of the bleeding hearts here who have got us where we are and its th bleeding hearts who will ensure we stay here!!


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

rustyintegrale said:


> Fab 4 TT said:
> 
> 
> > Rusty, I'm on the same flightpath, but just a question.
> ...


spot on !!


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

Chubster said:


> My mother had a massive stroke 2 yrs ago,paralysed down one side and mind is stuck in the 1970's,lucky she transferred her house to me 15 yrs ago so those DSS shites couldnt touch it (7 yrs is the countback limit for those interested).
> Just coming up to the £50k in nursing fees because her savings and pensions havent dropped below the £22.5k limit yet,after which DSS will pay X amount and I get stiffed with a £150 a month "top up fee" to keep her in the home she is.
> I am literally fucking boiling over at the fact that not only has my mum's savings taking a battering but soon I have to stump up cash as well.What the fuck is going on these days?
> Yes I own a TT but I am working class and have worked hard since I left school,signed on for 1 day then did a years YTS course for 25 quid a week.Coming up to 28 yrs as an electrician in the Steel Industry but outlook is grim for us in Port Talbot so I may lose my job,then I face up-rooting my mum to another home that doesnt charge a top up fee so that will be stress for her.
> ...


Shit deal, and neither you or your mum deserved such service mate; its a disgrace!!


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

YELLOW_TT said:


> The problem is not how much the government has to spend it is what it spends it how much aid did we give to India this year a country so hard up it has it's own space program a country that is taking our steel ship building call centre chemical and pharmaceutical jobs


Yes,wastefully supporting the poor in other nations and telling our own pensioners to sell their kids inheritance. Its screwed up and it has to end!


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## Fab 4 TT (Sep 28, 2004)

BrianR said:


> I tll you what; all of thise who think it its ok to sell your folks home to pay for their care, go ahead and do that. All of us who dont think that is right will abstain from that. Its really easy to take the view that its right and I think it is acceptance such as that that means the situation persists. there is always some dogooder who takes the so called sensible view; its the reason we have so much crap going on in our country today - prisoners with tellys and DVD's; muggers battering pensioners and getting 3 months stir; pedos raping kids and told to go home and be good; foreigners robbing our war graves; travellers parking wherever they see fit; gangs roaming our streets whilst our pensioners hide in their homes. All of those in the same queue as me for care when I grow old, I pay they dont. It is time for middle class in this country to get off their arses and say enough is enough - if we accept the status quo or encourage it as some here are doing then we deserve what we . Read the mails above, these are real people with real lives that are destroyed as a result of simply getting old, something that comes to us all in the end. I dont want my kids to remember me as someone who landed them with debt and worry and I have paid enough for that not to be the case. Its those who havent paid that should have that worry. Now thr bleeding hearts here will disagree and its the likes of the bleeding hearts here who have got us where we are and its th bleeding hearts who will ensure we stay here!!


 :lol: What a joke you are.

I believe it's justifiable to pay for a service, one I know we can't afford. Why? BECAUSE WE ARE RUNNING A DEF-I-CET!!!! And that makes me a do gooder? I'm the reason why kids get raped?

You say you've paid enough? How? The country's bankrupt? We are printing money! We haven't paid enough! We've never paid enough. You've wanted beyond what could be provided for you by continuing to vote in government's without the faculties to understand the importance of balancing the books.

You don't want to burden you kids with debt? hahahahhahahahhahah! You fucking have! Paying to keep your dumb ass in a retirement home! What do you think the national debt is? Make believe?

Answer me one question please. Your taxes won't cover your care, (we can work it out if you like) and you don't want your kids to pay either (s-n-i-g-g-e-r). Who's going to pay?


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

Firstly and above everything, I wonder why you are so aggressive and patronising in your tone? I dont think I need to explain myself, but I guess in your case I may have to. The points I made were generalisations and said nothing about you as an individual; although now having read your response, you say quite enough about yourself and actually give credence to my earlier points. My father taught me never to argue with women , or idiots; I'm guessing you aren't a woman and so to save myself giving a heap of energy to someone so arrogant and patronsing I choose not to respond to your questions. Have a wonderful day balancing the books.


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

BrianR said:


> :lol: What a joke you are.
> 
> I believe it's justifiable to pay for a service, one I know we can't afford. Why? BECAUSE WE ARE RUNNING A DEF-I-CET!!!! And that makes me a do gooder? I'm the reason why kids get raped?
> 
> ...


P.s I wonder, are you and have been recieving benefits hand-outs for a long time, because I think the lady doth protest a little too much

Firstly and above everything, I wonder why you are so aggressive and patronising in your tone? I dont think I need to explain myself, but I guess in your case I may have to. The points I made were generalisations and said nothing about you as an individual; although now having read your response, you say quite enough about yourself and actually give credence to my earlier points. My father taught me never to argue with women , or idiots; I'm guessing you aren't a woman and so to save myself giving a heap of energy to someone so arrogant and patronsing I choose not to respond to your questions. Have a wonderful day balancing the books.[/quote]


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## Fab 4 TT (Sep 28, 2004)

Another baffling reply from the brain.



BrianR said:


> The points I made were generalisations and said nothing about you as an individual





BrianR said:


> P.s I wonder, are you and have been receiving benefits hand-outs for a long time, because I think the lady doth protest a little too much


Hypocrisy Polly Tonybee would be proud of.



BrianR said:


> I choose not to respond to your questions.


The reason being you don't want me dropping another massive wisdom shit on your head?


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

Fab 4 TT said:


> Another baffling reply from the brain.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are you still going on? I got it wrong about your gendre yesterday then. In your own patronsing and offensive words, S-N-I-G-G-E-R; AWWW you are dillusional. You feel that because you think it and you say it, that it must be true and that noone can have an alternate view. I wonder if you ever had an original thought, or do you spend your life quoting the views of politicians. Like I said, £1million in tax so far, so no hypocrasy here, but it fels like I touched a raw nerve in you (S-N-I-G-G-E-R), was I close to the real issue here, that you need people like me and resent that. I'm guessing that by calling me the brain that you resent my superior intelligence and the fact that my views are my own and not those of David Cameron; Like I said, if you are happy to keep paying more then you are welcome to do that and I will continue to S-N-I-G-G-E-R as you do, whilst collecting my tax free cash in Dubai.


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## Fab 4 TT (Sep 28, 2004)

So let me get this straight.



Fab 4 TT said:


> if you are happy to keep paying more then you are welcome to do that and I will continue to S-N-I-G-G-E-R as you do, whilst collecting my tax free cash in Dubai.


You don't currently pay UK tax, but you want the UK taxpayer to pay for your elderly care? PURE GENIUS! An amazing demonstration of shear hypocrisy.



Fab 4 TT said:


> You feel that because you think it and you say it, that it must be true and that noone can have an alternate view.


IT IS TRUE YOU RETARD!

http://www.debtbombshell.com/

Go read the above, digest it, then have someone volley you in the knackers!


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

Fab 4 TT said:


> So let me get this straight.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Even that isnt original is it, I wonder where you heard/read that, in your sad little day? Feels like someone has spent a while vollying your head mate and listening to you I can totally understand why - would have liked to have seen that and S-N-I-G-G-E-R-E-D

Out of respect to everyone else who may be daft enough to read, I will desisit from responding to your childish drivel from here on in. Btw you may want to start a thread sometimes, instead of hijacking aNd killing everyone elses with your one dimensional, unfunny, childish, know little, thick drivel; oh yes, sorry , that takes originality and thought and you are just a dumb f#ckwhit earning buttons and contributing f#ckall. So long FAB4; lol FAB4 - what a tosser!


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## Fab 4 TT (Sep 28, 2004)

Brain, you peddle the same old shit.

I don't want to know your earnings, or how you'll be living tax free in Dubai. I'm not interested in how much tax you've paid or your personnel wishes for me.

Any reasonable individual will wonder how you can have the audacity to criticize public spending when you don't contribute yourself.

You criticized the very fact I dared make an admission that I felt it morally right to pay for a service. You did this in a manor that was insulting and crude. Everyone who has read your thread has read the very words whereby you believe I am indirectly responsible for the rape of young children. That's correct, I believe, as a collective of people, at this moment in time, we can't afford to be furnished in later life by taxation alone. And that makes me akin to a pedophile.



BrianR said:


> there is always some dogooder who takes the so called sensible view; its the reason we have





BrianR said:


> pedos raping kids


I hope you are embarrassed by this.

You constantly refer to 'originality' yet you end your statement with the very same words that I ended mine. You haven't discussed, debated or offered a substantiated reply.



BrianR said:


> Out of respect to everyone else who may be daft enough to read


Can forum readers not at least have the liberty to digest what's been written on their forum without you insulting their intelligence?



BrianR said:


> you are just a dumb f#ckwhit earning buttons and contributing f#ckall.


Your personnel assessments Brain are poor. Would an individual who claims income support really be interested in budget deficits? Some who's living in sheltered accommodation interested in UK monetary policy and the national debt?

If you don't want to discuss the issues, then that's fine. You've made that quite obvious. We''ll cease with this adult discussion.



BrianR said:


> My father taught me never to argue with women , or idiots


I can understand this. He must have been sick of the humiliation of being beaten by your retarded mother.

Ladies and gentleman of the ********, I give you the Brain family.....

Brain's dad










Brain's mum










The man himself, having just wiped his own arse.


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

Ok you have taken it a step further by attempting to insult my parents. You are incapabale of retaining a sentence, probably the result of being reared by a pig and your sister, who was also your mother (and so I refuse to debate with you, you are too thick for debate). I have met folk like you before, generally when they are brought to me for therapy; they use language as a weapon and insults as a barrier to prevent others from getting close to them; I just wanted you know that what happened with your uncle and his friend wasn't your fault; the fact you enjoyed it wasn't your fault; the fact you ended up with a lifetimes head fuck isnt your fault.We probably need to work on how you relate with others, this fascination with authority, you trust and love them and want to please them (obviously a cry to be noticed a human need to be loved and wanted - years ago people like you used to doff their caps to the master; you choose to bend over and take it); it appears you resent needing them but you understand that your crummy pointless little life, where you contribute nothing to anyone other than yourself and your sad, no doubt 'sick of you'. family; an ugly wife and two fat kids, who are also your aunty and nephews. You have learned that bile and abuse brings its own relief, it means that noone sees that you add nothing but negativity, that your sad little none descript meaninggless life is running put and that noone really cares what you think. You attempt to mask it with humour; the photographs used are actually a reflection of ones own world and the very things that one hates about oneself, in your case you think you wish that you were seen as superman, but infact are seen as the exact opposite of that; the photo of the disabled chap is a truer representative of your own image, with the exception that you spend 20 hours a day with your hands down the front of your trousers; the young chap appears to be light years ahead of you when it comes to emotional intelligence and so that puzzled me until I realised that the nurses have probably reduced the quantity of photographs that you have access to on the internet. I feel sorry for you, keep taking the meds and try to reduce the masterbation it may help with the self hate. The people here will continue give you space and acceptance as tey are a decent buncg and realise that everyone, even the son of a pig and his sister needs a chance in life. The home awaits chap and I am sensing that you will fit in fine, you will even have someone to ehlp wipe your arse and mop up you dribble, you dont have that now, so a plus point. wish you well with it and give your mum and wife a pat on the head and an apple from me and tell them that Brian said "soooooooeeeeeeeeee". Big kiss and hug your way Superman x (H) S-N-I-G-G-E-R


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## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

Fab 4 TT said:


> rustyintegrale said:
> 
> 
> > there is always some dogooder who takes the so called sensible view; its the reason we have
> ...


Excuse me Fab 4 TT, would you mind making it crystal clear that it was not me that wrote these two statements? :? If you're going to use quotes then please ensure you attribute them to the correct person.

Thank you.


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

Excuse me Fab 4 TT, would you mind making it crystal clear that it was not me that wrote these two statements? :? If you're going to use quotes then please ensure you attribute them to the correct person.

Thank you. [/quote]
Tit tut FAB4 tut tut.

Rusty sorry you have been implicated, I can make it clear the quotes were mine taken out of context by a moron.


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## Fab 4 TT (Sep 28, 2004)

BrianR said:


> Ok you have taken it a step further by attempting to insult my parents. You are incapabale of retaining a sentence, probably the result of being reared by a pig and your sister, who was also your mother (and so I refuse to debate with you, you are too thick for debate). I have met folk like you before, generally when they are brought to me for therapy; they use language as a weapon and insults as a barrier to prevent others from getting close to them; I just wanted you know that what happened with your uncle and his friend wasn't your fault; the fact you enjoyed it wasn't your fault; the fact you ended up with a lifetimes head fuck isnt your fault.We probably need to work on how you relate with others, this fascination with authority, you trust and love them and want to please them (obviously a cry to be noticed a human need to be loved and wanted - years ago people like you used to doff their caps to the master; you choose to bend over and take it); it appears you resent needing them but you understand that your crummy pointless little life, where you contribute nothing to anyone other than yourself and your sad, no doubt 'sick of you'. family; an ugly wife and two fat kids, who are also your aunty and nephews. You have learned that bile and abuse brings its own relief, it means that noone sees that you add nothing but negativity, that your sad little none descript meaninggless life is running put and that noone really cares what you think. You attempt to mask it with humour; the photographs used are actually a reflection of ones own world and the very things that one hates about oneself, in your case you think you wish that you were seen as superman, but infact are seen as the exact opposite of that; the photo of the disabled chap is a truer representative of your own image, with the exception that you spend 20 hours a day with your hands down the front of your trousers; the young chap appears to be light years ahead of you when it comes to emotional intelligence and so that puzzled me until I realised that the nurses have probably reduced the quantity of photographs that you have access to on the internet. I feel sorry for you, keep taking the meds and try to reduce the masterbation it may help with the self hate. The people here will continue give you space and acceptance as tey are a decent buncg and realise that everyone, even the son of a pig and his sister needs a chance in life. The home awaits chap and I am sensing that you will fit in fine, you will even have someone to ehlp wipe your arse and mop up you dribble, you dont have that now, so a plus point. wish you well with it and give your mum and wife a pat on the head and an apple from me and tell them that Brian said "soooooooeeeeeeeeee". Big kiss and hug your way Superman x (H) S-N-I-G-G-E-R


I read the first couple of lines and got bored............anyroad, I think we've established a consensus here.

There's not enough money in the kitty to cover elderly care for us all.

If you or your parents need elderly care then you'll have to contribute. Unless you haven't the savings or capital to relinquish, then we'll continue to sell bonds (borrow money & increase the national debt) to cover this.

Our mothers and fathers looked after us for 20 years; we are going to have to reciprocate this in later life if we want to tackle the deficit.


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## Fab 4 TT (Sep 28, 2004)

BrianR said:


> Fab 4 TT said:
> 
> 
> > rustyintegrale said:
> ...


My apologise rusty I must have 'quoted' from a 'quote'.

For the record, BrianR was the forum member who made the disgusting and offensive accusation.

Thanks for raising this rusty, I can understand why you wouldn't want to be associated with making such a vile and perverse statement.

Previous post edited.


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## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

Fab 4 TT said:


> My apologise rusty I must have 'quoted' from a 'quote'.


Thanks for that!


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

What we deduced is that you are incapable of having a debate without resorting to personal attacks and abuse. You make it impossible to debate with you (as I have with many without becoming embroiled in your idiocy). You gave your summary and here is mine (now that the personal abuse has ceased).

Looking after the elderly is costly; the cost should be prioritised above right wing wars and supporting failing capitalism in other countries. If we do that then we can afford it, defecit or not it is simply a matter of choice (the right wing have always prioritised the working class last and always will). One thing is for sure, we will all be old one day, we will all be ill one day and we will all require the support and help of those around us (you included). My family and I nursed both my parents up to their death a few years ago (the same people you were abusing in one of your posts earlier - you aren't fit to kiss their boots mate)- we took nothing from anybody and neither did they, and they passed with great dignity and courage in the home they had worked hard to pay for years earlier, the most any of us can ask for.

Bye bye FAB4; until the next time you hijack someones post. Maybe one day we will see an orignal one from you with more interesting subject matter than that which you have so far contributed.


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## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

BrianR said:


> Rusty sorry you have been implicated, I can make it clear the quotes were mine taken out of context by a moron.


Nah, it's fine. He has made it clear so all is good. 8)


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## Fab 4 TT (Sep 28, 2004)

I realise where your view on elderly care has manifested. It's all about the money isn't it? The thought of your parents having to pay for their elderly care would have jeopardised your inheritance, your money, not your parents. Yours.

All completely understandable, you're out of work at the moment, money's tight.



BrianR said:


> you aren't fit to kiss their boots mate


I doubt I would have had time, before you ripped them from their soles. Along with all the other contents in the house.


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

I have decided that you are like a mosquito, buzzing around, annoying, painful to be around and deffo needing a good slap with a newspaper. I see you are disrespecting my parents memory again; you are such a nice guy. I dont have to justify anything to you about my parents.


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