# Heavy handed moderation



## Nem

Why do the forum admin this it is acceptable to post on a thread and then lock it so nobody can then reply to it.

Simply not willing to accept you are WRONG.

TTOC stands were members only since 2011 not 2014 yet you will still not accept this. Check the ADI 2011 thread where this is clearly stated.

Unlock the thread and we'll continue rather than feeling the need to have the last, incorrect, word on the matter.

You've also nicely waited until the evenTT15 weekend thinking the committee will be too busy to notice you've posted.


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## Nem

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=223843&hilit=Driver

Thread for proof.

The decision was taken after TT8N crashed the TTOC stand at ADI 2010 and took affect at all major events from 2011 onwards.

The vote last year was to reaffirm that decision, NOT to make the decision.


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## Wallsendmag

You're keeping good company rewriting history john not a group of people I'd like to be in


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## Bartsimpsonhead

Wallsendmag said:


> &#8230;not a group of people I'd like to be in


I abhor dishonest behaviour, and completely agree with ToonToon, er, Wallsendmag - oh, whatever he's posting himself under to make something up.  
Question is: but which group?


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## jamman

Bartsimpsonhead said:


> Wallsendmag said:
> 
> 
> 
> &#8230;not a group of people I'd like to be in
> 
> 
> 
> I abhor dishonest behaviour, and completely agree with ToonToon, er, Wallsendmag - oh, whatever he's posting himself under to make something up.
> Question is: but which group?
Click to expand...

Stop baiting Martin it's annoying and unhelpful (as is posting under double names Andrew)

I like peeps on both "sides" but this kind of behaviour has to stop Nick has actually asked a valid question and it's doesn't need to end up with another bitch session which you are encouraging Martin and don't tell me your not because I'm the master of the wind up  :wink:


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## John-H

Nem said:


> http://www.ttforum.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=223843&hilit=Driver
> 
> Thread for proof.
> 
> The decision was taken after TT8N crashed the TTOC stand at ADI 2010 and took affect at all major events from 2011 onwards.
> 
> The vote last year was to reaffirm that decision, NOT to make the decision.


The thread was already locked because it was getting out of hand but I needed to respond. Anyway...

Yes, I remember that particular year was a reaction to Sam unfurling banners on the ADI stand for TT8N and there was a threat to split the community with a rival forum group at the time which Jae was also trying to discourage. You couldn't say TT Forum members only on the stand, as TT8N could easily come on as TT Forum members, so as a ruse 'club members only' was used to prevent them attending and put them off. TT Forum members still attended on club stands anyway. I can find other examples of major events with no such stated restrictions in later years e.g. here here here here here etc - and the point is; none of the events organised on the forum by the club should have excluded TT Forum members in accordance with the written agreement made with Jae in 2010, which regarding events says "... not to exclude TTF".

Jae always ensured balance and made sure the arrangements were in the whole community's interest. There is no mention of a subsequent policy change in this regard in club minutes, nor would the club have had the right to make such a unilateral change given it was acting in trust on behalf of the whole forum and I certainly would have objected to forum members being excluded. It was common practice for forum members to be made welcome on "club" stands and always had been. It made for a better picture for the magazine that way too.

As for the vote you had July last year - why would you need to re-affirm a policy if it was clear? You rang and told me the result - that it was going to be members only from now on. Can you now please confirm to everybody here that *it was in fact you who suggested to me that the forum would now have to organise its own stands for members?* Why would you say that if it hadn't just become necessary? Your suggestion to organise TT Forum stands for members is exactly what we are now doing.

I quoted Andrew from 2010 answering a forum member who asked if he could come on the stand at ADI:



Wallsendmag said:


> Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 9:46 am http://www.ttforum.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=180836&p=1848822&hilit=ADI#p1848822
> 
> We're not at all fussy its not really a TTOC stand its just a stand organised for TT owners and various forum members.


... and he then said on FaceBook (August 2014):










Regardless of how recent a policy decision the TTOC has had - the point is that this is the TT Forum and the interests of the whole community need looking after and prioritising. If the TTOC has chosen to have private event stands for TTOC members that's fine but it can't stop others organising events and any member of this forum is entitled to organise an event stand. This is best done in the name of the TT Forum for members wishing to attend as it then helps promote the forum. The more people attracted to the forum will also see there is a club too.

There is room for both stands and as was shown at the recent rolling road event organised by James, it is possible for everyone to cooperate and have a good time. So please let's do that


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## Nem

Every one of your here, here, here or here were members only, every person on those stands were a TTOC member.

This is why you were ejected from the committee, you simply will not accept a point even when presented with evidence and reason you still argue black is white.


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## Mrs Wallsendmag

It would be nice to know how Andrew's post from his Facebook page be posted here by someone who is not on Facebook?


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## Wallsendmag

Bartsimpsonhead said:


> Wallsendmag said:
> 
> 
> 
> &#8230;not a group of people I'd like to be in
> 
> 
> 
> I abhor dishonest behaviour, and completely agree with ToonToon, er, Wallsendmag - oh, whatever he's posting himself under to make something up.
> Question is: but which group?
Click to expand...

I make one mistake while logged in trying to stop spam from the forum on an old account and you bring it up every opportunity you get , I notice Dani hasn't commented and even the head honcho has been know to post as a third party ask him about that .


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## audimad

I see the bickering is still going on. It is one of the reasons why i left the TTOC. [smiley=thumbsdown.gif]


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## Lollypop86

I'm just wondering why TTOC members are not being directed to the TTOC events section purposefully hidden by the TTF and added to the TTF stand...... two members now on the TTF ADI stand although they have both stated they are TTOC members........just saying

J
xx


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## TTFAdmin

I can see links to your organization as well as its dedicated section all over the site, I am not sure what you mean by it being hidden?

-Philip


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## Lollypop86

Hi Philip,

Its quite straight forward, people will naturally go to the Events section, especially if they dont use the forum often, therefore dont see the exposure of the TTOC events, putting their names down on the TTF club stand (funny looking club) and not being directed to the right place......its as simple as that really. TTF did not announce that the TTOC events had been moved, just moved them, lots of confusion, and lots of continued frustration. But as I stated 2 TTOC members not being directed to the TTOC thread for the event they have always attended as members only for what appears to be TTF trying to bump numbers.

Thanks

Jess


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## Hoggy

Hi, I've always wondered why TTOC members prefer to use the TTF, as we know the TTOC web site is always very very quiet & little used. :? 
Hoggy.


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## Nem

Hoggy said:


> Hi, I've always wondered why TTOC members prefer to use the TTF, as we know the TTOC web site is always very very quiet & little used. :?
> Hoggy.


Things are changing tho Hoggy, slowly maybe, but it's happening.


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## Lollypop86

Hoggy said:


> Hi, I've always wondered why TTOC members prefer to use the TTF, as we know the TTOC web site is always very very quiet & little used. :?
> Hoggy.


Not even referring to the website just the TTOC section where the events appear to be hidden out of view for anyone logging on and looking for events........99% of folk will naturally go to the Events section but the TTOC are not allowed to post TTOC only events even though there are a substantial number of TTOC only events prior to 2014 in there......

and good things come to those who wait 

J
xx


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## Hoggy

Nem said:


> Hoggy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi, I've always wondered why TTOC members prefer to use the TTF, as we know the TTOC web site is always very very quiet & little used. :?
> Hoggy.
> 
> 
> 
> Things are changing tho Hoggy, slowly maybe, but it's happening.
Click to expand...

Hi, Would certainly reduce the arguments.
Hoggy.


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## Hoggy

Lollypop86 said:


> Hoggy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi, I've always wondered why TTOC members prefer to use the TTF, as we know the TTOC web site is always very very quiet & little used. :?
> Hoggy.
> 
> 
> 
> Not even referring to the website just the TTOC section where the events appear to be hidden out of view for anyone logging on and looking for events........99% of folk will naturally go to the Events section but the TTOC are not allowed to post TTOC only events even though there are a substantial number of TTOC only events prior to 2014 in there......
> 
> and good things come to those who wait
> 
> J
> xx
Click to expand...

Hi, Why don't TTOC members use the TTOC website first ?
I always check both & post every day, if anything to reply to.
We pay for it, but use it very little.

Hoggy.


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## triplefan

Lollypop86 said:


> people will naturally go to the Events section, especially if they dont use the forum often, therefore dont see the exposure of the TTOC events, putting their names down on the TTF club stand


Are these events open to TTF members, maybe it's done to avoid confusion?


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## Roller Skate

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## jamman

Whilst everyone in my world is allowed an opinion using the word parasite is a bit OTT/inflammatory/Stupid/juvenile in my book.

This constant bickering is doing no one any favours.


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## Roller Skate

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## rustyintegrale

Plainly something isn't right in the relationship between the TTOC and the TTF.

But it's nothing new and various people (including me) have waded in from time-to-time and got nowhere really.

There needs to be a sea change in attitude from both parties in my opinion. A lot of water has gone under the bridge and some serious damage done to both clubs along the way. A line needs to be drawn and people should remember this is about a car we all share affection for. That's it. Anything else is both wasteful and unproductive.

I don't know if a sensible outcome will ever happen. There are personalities in both camps licking long-term wounds that are reluctant to budge, but without a willingness from all to sit down and thrash out the difficulties calmly, I doubt the situation will ever change for the better.

Personally I believe the two clubs would be stronger as one. I simply cannot fathom out what is to be gained by having two clubs except for those with egos to maintain.

If it is all about egos (as I suspect) then those in power would do better to massage the notion of unification instead of preening their own self-important feathers. That way all TT owners and enthusiasts would enjoy club membership more as well as ownership of the car.

It is the car we love and only the car we *all* have in common. You'd all do well to remember that.


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## jamman

A refreshing level headed response Richard pity others can't act this way


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## Bartsimpsonhead

A fine notion indeed, but there are some major differences between the two - one is not a club for a start, and the other wants to charge £25 to join (where a lot of people just don't see the value/need to pay that kind of money to be 'entitled' to park in a field at events, or for two 'looks nice, but light on interesting content' magazines.)


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## Roller Skate

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Nem

The biggest problem is still that the forum is a business and the Club is not, and so far I've not seen any way to combine the two which works and is acceptable to all involved.

I wouldn't be happy putting my time for free into something where the other half is making tens of thousands of pounds a year, especially where the side making the money is 'simply' paying for a server and bandwidth and maintaining the software and the other side is putting in countless hours processing memberships and merchandise, compiling and producing magazines and organising and attending and running events for no financial gain.

The same goes for things like the event stands, it's been suggested that we open up the club stands to everyone again, but then why should non paying people get the same benefit that members get? We put the time into arranging the stands, transporting the gazebo and flags etc etc to make sure that our members who have paid towards those resources are looked after. Why should we be letting non members have that service. It's not even like we could say have a non members list and then 2 weeks before an event open up any spare spaces to that reserve list, as for starters people like to know what they are doing before that time - not knowing if you will have a place or not, but also for the last two years we have been filling our quota with members. It wouldn't take long for people on here to realise they were not going to get places due to member demand and start booking their own stands in the forum name again and we're back where we are now.

So, ignoring any personal differences or grudges, I simply cannot see any way to combine the two parts of this community to the satisfaction of all involved. Unless anyone can genuinely come up with a plan?


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## A3DFU

Nem said:


> I simply cannot see any way to combine the two parts of this community to the satisfaction of all involved. Unless anyone can genuinely come up with a plan?





John-H said:


> There is room for both stands and as was shown at the recent rolling road event organised by James, it is possible for everyone to cooperate and have a good time. So please let's do that


Both stands side by side would be a good starting point


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## John-H

Yes indeed  and further to that...

As long as it's 'members only' on club stands there will be the need to support forum members who are not allowed to participate and who are at liberty to organise their own stand. If that is the case then it is best done in the name of the TT forum rather than Joe Blogs as it helps support the forum and attracts members to the site.

If the club is willing to restore the situation whereby it organises event stands on behalf of everybody (TTOC members and non club TT Forum members) and as long as members agree then we can get back to a mutually supportive and symbiotic relationship whereby the club gets the benefit of exposure on and use of the forum and the forum benefits from the event supporrt that the club can provide for all our members.

What do you say?


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## Nem

John-H said:


> ...then we can get back to a mutually supportive and symbiotic relationship whereby the club gets the benefit of exposure on and use of the forum...


I'd say that you've just openly admitted that by hiding our events away in a subsection that you have deliberately reduced our exposure which you have previous denied being the case.

It's not as simple as just opening up stands to non members, even our members have voiced great concerns about this over the last weekend stating they are not seeing why they should be sharing ground as paying members as someone who is just a forum member. As much as you want to look after the forum members interests so do we for our members.

It's not straightforward I'm afraid.


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## paulw12

> Both stands side by side would be a good starting point


Why wouldn't this work?
Surely the more TT's on display the better for everyone. RH side Paying TTOC members get their pick on their stand, LH side TTF members.....flip coin for sides.. 
If they are not together it looks like "The life of Brian", with the splitters over there.... :lol:


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## Nem

TTFAdmin said:


> I can see links to your organization as well as its dedicated section all over the site, I am not sure what you mean by it being hidden?
> 
> -Philip





John-H said:


> Yes indeed  and further to that...
> 
> As long as it's 'members only' on club stands there will be the need to support forum members who are not allowed to participate and who are at liberty to organise their own stand. If that is the case then it is best done in the name of the TT forum rather than Joe Blogs as it helps support the forum and attracts members to the site.
> 
> If the club is willing to restore the situation whereby it organises event stands on behalf of everybody (TTOC members and non club TT Forum members) and as long as members agree *then we can get back to* a mutually supportive and symbiotic relationship whereby the club gets the benefit of exposure on and use of the forum and the forum benefits from the event supporrt that the club can provide for all our members.
> 
> What do you say?


Hidden by way of a deliberate lack of exposure which John here clearly admits is currently the case.


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## jamman

Hi Folks

Here's an idea John why don't you make the (little) first move (and the kudos that goes with it) and change the events back to how they were before hand.

Now we all know there's people on both sides of the fence that can't stand each other (just being honest) but one of you please give a little ground P L E A S E

It's all about the car.....

Cheers

James (the saviour of TTF/TTOC or should that be TTOC/TTF)


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## jamman

Equally Nick could make the larger shows ie ADI available to non members whilst keeping the smaller ones (15 cars etc) exclusive.

THIS IS NOT FECKING ROCKET SCIENCE SORT IT OUT

Love

James the saviour......


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## Nem

jamman said:


> Equally Nick could make the larger shows ie ADI available to non members whilst keeping the smaller ones (15 cars etc) exclusive.
> 
> THIS IS NOT FECKING ROCKET SCIENCE SORT IT OUT
> 
> Love
> 
> James the saviour......


But for the last two years we've had 50 cars on the stand at ADI, MEMBERS CARS, and no more room, we were already over our allocation of 40 cars anyway on the agreement we would squeeze them in ourselves and manage the parking on the stand.


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## jamman

Nem said:


> jamman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Equally Nick could make the larger shows ie ADI available to non members whilst keeping the smaller ones (15 cars etc) exclusive.
> 
> THIS IS NOT FECKING ROCKET SCIENCE SORT IT OUT
> 
> Love
> 
> James the saviour......
> 
> 
> 
> But for the last two years we've had 50 cars on the stand at ADI, MEMBERS CARS, and no more room, we were already over our allocation of 40 cars anyway on the agreement we would squeeze them in ourselves and manage the parking on the stand.
Click to expand...

We could squeeze a few more on, come on my friend give a little


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## jamman

Or as a good friend has just whatsapped moi

"Have them side by side and sort of muddled up in the middle"


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## John-H

Sorry I've only just seen your post above Dani Nick, after I replied to her - too busy can't keep up.

Well it always used to be simple and the argument was that being open and inviting on the stand encouraged people to join the club. Persuade members of that again. There's no need to compel them to join first. You can always ask for more space at most events too - it's only the same space in total after all :wink: and of course it goes without saying that events open to all and yes, even ones were TTOC have priority (but not excluding TTF) due to limited space, are then back on the main events section.


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## Roller Skate

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## rustyintegrale

Nem said:


> Unless anyone can genuinely come up with a plan?


To have any hope of coming up with a plan there needs to be an openness with some facts and figures.

So from the TTF please...

How much does the forum turnover per financial year and roughly what percentage is profit?
Do any of the people maintaining the forum in whatever capacity get paid for doing so?
Any benefits in kind at all? Please be honest.
How many 'paid' people are involved and please confirm these are the forum owners/investors?
How many 'active' members has the forum got?
How many of the key team running the TTF actually own and run their own TT?
How many TTF members do you estimate also belong to the TTOC?

And now the TTOC please...

How much revenue does the TTOC raise per financial year? Use 2013/4 figures if it's easier.
How much of that is from memberships?
In the same year, how much expenditure does the TTOC have?
What happens to the surplus income if any?
Who, if anyone on the committee, draws expenses or some other remuneration from the TTOC?
Any benefits in kind at all? Please be honest.
How many of the key team running the TTOC actually own and run their own TT?
How many TTOC members do you estimate also belong to the TTF?

And a couple of questions for any TTF members who aren't TTOC members but would consider it (if you are anti TTOC regardless please do not respond). I'm trying to build a picture here...

How much would you pay annually to belong to the TTOC?
Would you consider paying to join a combined TTF/TTOC and if so how much?
Would you consider a 'tiered' membership where you pay more for benefits others might not need?

Okay, these are for starters. It would be helpful to have one member from each group only answer the questions. Please bear with me...


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## spike

hopefully this is progress


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## jamman

I think we are in grave danger of over complicating things Rich


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## John-H

I take size nine but I have to buy my own shoes  Only joking :wink:


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## rustyintegrale

jamman said:


> I think we are in grave danger of over complicating things Rich


I think its already overcomplicated James. But this saga has gone on and on unresolved for years and largely because of bickering and untruths.

Lets just see what truths can come out of this. A baring of souls from both parties is a sign of good faith.


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## cherie

> And a couple of questions for any TTF members who aren't TTOC members but would consider it (if you are anti TTOC regardless please do not respond). I'm trying to build a picture here...
> 
> How much would you pay annually to belong to the TTOC?
> Would you consider paying to join a combined TTF/TTOC and if so how much?
> Would you consider a 'tiered' membership where you pay more for benefits others might not need?


I currently don't really feel I would get the full benefit of joining the TTOC for the amount of events and shows I would be likely to attend. Not for the price that is currently charged.

I know the pricing structure of membership has been changed recently, but I still think it needs some modernising.
My thoughts would be a tiered membership.
1. A basic membership - no frills, just TTOC forum access and option to attend shows.
2. Basic membership with a discount for multiple years purchase.
The magazine subscription, merchandise and any other extras as optional purchases at any time of the year.

The other option is basically to charge a little more for tickets to non-members. £2-£4 extra would be fine by me if I'm going to attend only one or two shows a year.

I know that TTOC has to protects its interests, but at the same time, you can't afford to alienate the fence sitters (like me) who don't see that it's currently worth joining the club. The bickering and fighting is off putting, not because I agree or disagree with anyone, but simply because I can't be arsed with the politics, and I do not want to have their show attendance dictated by a club that they are NOT a member of.

Generally, we need less bitching, point scoring and blame slinging, and more suggestions on workable solutions. I don't care if you all hate each others guts, but for the good of the forum, keep the personal feelings out of it as much as possible, and be objective.


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## V6RUL

I think the membership of the TTF should vote as to whether the TTOC should remain on this site..
Steve


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## jamman

:roll: great idea :roll:


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## Lollypop86

spike said:


> hopefully this is progress


There was, we were actually having a civil conversation for once till a certain post. The TTF I don't believe is a democracy, the TTOC is.

J
Xx


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## Ikon66

Lollypop86 said:


> spike said:
> 
> 
> 
> hopefully this is progress
> 
> 
> 
> There was, we were actually having a civil conversation for once till a certain post. The TTF I don't believe is a democracy, the TTOC is.
> 
> J
> Xx
Click to expand...

I would hardly say referring to someone as a "no mark" as a civilised convesation? :roll:


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## Lollypop86

i don't recall calling anyone a no mark in this thread, care to point it out? And that's point it out in this thread not any other thread just incase there was some confusion 

J
Xx


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## ReTTro fit

Carefull Jess, will be closed down if he doesn't like your reply.

On iPhone using Tapacrap


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## Bartsimpsonhead

The thing with a democracy is - everyone should get a say, everyone should get a vote. And it should be made blatantly clear to everyone when nominations/an election or vote is to be held. That is true of the TTOC, and non-applicable to the TTF.

Only if you voice your dissatisfaction at how things are run, and try to suggest how you think things could be run better, and feel that what you are suggesting is being largely ignored so you keep voicing your dissatisfaction - then you get labelled as a troublemaker, roundly vilified and marginalised.
The simplest and more usual thing to do is then just give up and say "feck it, I'm not going to bother with these tw*ts anymore - I'm off." 
Got that t-shirt.

At least with the Forum there are pretty clear and straightforward rules to follow which are set in stone, so you have only one option - play by their rules or go and use another forum. Simples!


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## Ikon66

ReTTro fit said:


> Carefull Jess, the prick will close this down if he doesn't like your reply
> 
> On iPhone using Tapacrap


How civilised :roll:


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## Roller Skate

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## ReTTro fit

Ikon66 said:


> ReTTro fit said:
> 
> 
> 
> Carefull Jess, the prick will close this down if he doesn't like your reply
> 
> On iPhone using Tapacrap
> 
> 
> 
> How civilised :roll:
Click to expand...

You deserve it

On iPhone using Tapacrap


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## ReTTro fit

Roller Skate said:


> Comedy gold.
> 
> This is the TTOC all over. You can't have it your way, so it's insults all over. Or acting like babies. Therefore, nobody takes you seriously.
> 
> Saying that, you're entertainment at least. :lol: :lol: :lol:


And your just another keyboard warrior, very easy to get mouthy sat behind the screen

On iPhone using Tapacrap


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## Bartsimpsonhead

ReTTro fit said:


> Carefull Jess, the pr*ck will close this down if he doesn't like your reply.


It not the closing down of this tread she should worry about - it's the suspension of her posting rights.

A mod with a Ban-Hammer is a scary thing&#8230; [smiley=smash.gif]


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## Roller Skate

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## jamman

Sigh...


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## ReTTro fit

I wasn't saying that about your general posts, I was saying it purely about your post directed at me, acting like a baby etc

On iPhone using Tapacrap


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## Roller Skate

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Lollypop86

I'm not quite sure how anything that I have said in this thread would warrant a ban lol I posed a relatively current situation, the conversation since has been quite civilised since as was my last two responses lol you do tend to read things your own way ikon/martin and that's probably where the entire problem is 

So anyway back on topic

J
Xx


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## rustyintegrale

From the Forum front page...

*'We are delighted to announce that the TT Owners Club and the TT Forum are to form further links for the benefit of members of both organisations.

After a decade of outstanding service, the TT Forum and the TT Owners Club have announced even closer collaboration which will see them going into the next decade with an unbeatable combination of benefits for members.

We believe that by pooling our resources and working closely, we can best serve all our members, ensuring dedicated assistance, organisation and enthusiasm for all.'

All the Best from the TTF and TTOC Team *

That's all gone for a ball of chalk then!


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## kmpowell

F*****' hell is the TTFvTTOC bulls*** still going on after all these years! :lol:

- The TTF implememting ridiculously overcomplicated ideas and rules that do nothing but create chaos and confusion (there's more "how many posts do I need etc etc" posts than actual meaningful posts!) . I mean, a protection fund, and minimum post count or pay £5 to see the classifieds?!? FFS, this a forum not a f***ing bank, what was wrong with the very simple buyer beware! One person in charge does nothing for his place it needs more admin with equal say in things that bring reasoned and uncomplicated approaches. WTF is a TT Forum rep when it's at home!
- The TTOC still so firmly up its own ass they can't see the sun from the moon! They have had a decade to create their own Platform, expand etc but a combination of ignorance, grudges, weirdos with self importance, and damn-right stupidity still means they have nothing but a stagnant user base, infighting and no progress for many years.

TTF banned from TTOC events, TTOC banned from forums etc etc. Grow the f*** up!

What an utter embarrassment considering how good this place used to be. :?


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## genie_v1

rustyintegrale said:


> Plainly something isn't right in the relationship between the TTOC and the TTF.
> 
> But it's nothing new and various people (including me) have waded in from time-to-time and got nowhere really.
> 
> There needs to be a sea change in attitude from both parties in my opinion. A lot of water has gone under the bridge and some serious damage done to both clubs along the way. A line needs to be drawn and people should remember this is about a car we all share affection for. That's it. Anything else is both wasteful and unproductive.
> 
> I don't know if a sensible outcome will ever happen. There are personalities in both camps licking long-term wounds that are reluctant to budge, but without a willingness from all to sit down and thrash out the difficulties calmly, I doubt the situation will ever change for the better.
> 
> Personally I believe the two clubs would be stronger as one. I simply cannot fathom out what is to be gained by having two clubs except for those with egos to maintain.
> 
> If it is all about egos (as I suspect) then those in power would do better to massage the notion of unification instead of preening their own self-important feathers. That way all TT owners and enthusiasts would enjoy club membership more as well as ownership of the car.
> 
> It is the car we love and only the car we *all* have in common. You'd all do well to remember that.


+1


----------



## rustyintegrale

kmpowell said:


> F*****' hell is the TTFvTTOC bulls*** still going on after all these years! :lol:
> 
> - The TTF implememting ridiculously overcomplicated ideas and rules that do nothing but create chaos and confusion (there's more "how many posts do I need etc etc" posts than actual meaningful posts!) . I mean, a protection fund, and minimum post count or pay £5 to see the classifieds?!? FFS, this a forum not a f***ing bank, what was wrong with the very simple buyer beware! One person in charge does nothing for his place it needs more admin with equal say in things that bring reasoned and uncomplicated approaches. WTF is a TT Forum rep when it's at home!
> - The TTOC still so firmly up its own ass they can't see the sun from the moon! They have had a decade to create their own Platform, expand etc but a combination of ignorance, grudges, weirdos with self importance, and damn-right stupidity still means they have nothing but a stagnant user base, infighting and no progress for many years.
> 
> TTF banned from TTOC events, TTOC banned from forums etc etc. Grown the f*** up!
> 
> What an utter embarrassment considering how good this place used to be. :?


That seems to be a pretty fair summary.

So boys and girls, what can be done to positively change?

No more slagging off, no more bickering. Can we please expect some reasoned discussion with a joint purpose in mind?


----------



## Lollypop86

Naked hugs anyone?

J
xx


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## Lollypop86

kmpowell said:


> F*****' hell is the TTFvTTOC bulls*** still going on after all these years! :lol:
> 
> - The TTF implememting ridiculously overcomplicated ideas and rules that do nothing but create chaos and confusion (there's more "how many posts do I need etc etc" posts than actual meaningful posts!) . I mean, a protection fund, and minimum post count or pay £5 to see the classifieds?!? FFS, this a forum not a f***ing bank, what was wrong with the very simple buyer beware! One person in charge does nothing for his place it needs more admin with equal say in things that bring reasoned and uncomplicated approaches. WTF is a TT Forum rep when it's at home!
> - The TTOC still so firmly up its own ass they can't see the sun from the moon! They have had a decade to create their own Platform, expand etc but a combination of ignorance, grudges, weirdos with self importance, and damn-right stupidity still means they have nothing but a stagnant user base, infighting and no progress for many years.
> 
> TTF banned from TTOC events, TTOC banned from forums etc etc. Grown the f*** up!
> 
> What an utter embarrassment considering how good this place used to be. :?


made me full on LOL, I like your take on things, but I dont think I can get up my own bottom 

J
xx


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## rustyintegrale

Lollypop86 said:


> Naked hugs anyone?
> 
> J
> xx


Jess, sometimes, once in a while you have to take a serious point of view. :lol:


----------



## Lollypop86

rustyintegrale said:


> Lollypop86 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Naked hugs anyone?
> 
> J
> xx
> 
> 
> 
> Jess, sometimes, once in a while you have to take a serious point of view. :lol:
Click to expand...

But thats liable to get me banned apparently lol 

J
xx


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## Roller Skate

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## rustyintegrale

cherie said:


> And a couple of questions for any TTF members who aren't TTOC members but would consider it (if you are anti TTOC regardless please do not respond). I'm trying to build a picture here...
> 
> How much would you pay annually to belong to the TTOC?
> Would you consider paying to join a combined TTF/TTOC and if so how much?
> Would you consider a 'tiered' membership where you pay more for benefits others might not need?
> 
> 
> 
> I currently don't really feel I would get the full benefit of joining the TTOC for the amount of events and shows I would be likely to attend. Not for the price that is currently charged.
> 
> I know the pricing structure of membership has been changed recently, but I still think it needs some modernising.
> My thoughts would be a tiered membership.
> 1. A basic membership - no frills, just TTOC forum access and option to attend shows.
> 2. Basic membership with a discount for multiple years purchase.
> The magazine subscription, merchandise and any other extras as optional purchases at any time of the year.
> 
> The other option is basically to charge a little more for tickets to non-members. £2-£4 extra would be fine by me if I'm going to attend only one or two shows a year.
> 
> I know that TTOC has to protects its interests, but at the same time, you can't afford to alienate the fence sitters (like me) who don't see that it's currently worth joining the club. The bickering and fighting is off putting, not because I agree or disagree with anyone, but simply because I can't be arsed with the politics, and I do not want to have their show attendance dictated by a club that they are NOT a member of.
> 
> Generally, we need less bitching, point scoring and blame slinging, and more suggestions on workable solutions. I don't care if you all hate each others guts, but for the good of the forum, keep the personal feelings out of it as much as possible, and be objective.
Click to expand...

It's interesting that neither party has commented on this post. How rude to not even acknowledge it. If you really want an insight into what's wrong with the TTOC/TTF then you really should be listening to opinions like this. You might not agree with them but they're just as valid as your own. Without members you're nothing.


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## Lollypop86

I dont think its an option of ignoring it but its a case of reading the information and taking a further look into it before anything is said

J
xx


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## rustyintegrale

Lollypop86 said:


> I dont think its an option of ignoring it but its a case of reading the information and taking a further look into it before anything is said
> 
> J
> xx


Okay, that's fair enough.

From 'Cherie's' point of view 'no response' looks like nobody is interested. Having taken the trouble to post, an acknowledgement would be a thoughtful gesture...

Just saying'...


----------



## mighTy Tee

rustyintegrale said:


> cherie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And a couple of questions for any TTF members who aren't TTOC members but would consider it (if you are anti TTOC regardless please do not respond). I'm trying to build a picture here...
> 
> How much would you pay annually to belong to the TTOC?
> Would you consider paying to join a combined TTF/TTOC and if so how much?
> Would you consider a 'tiered' membership where you pay more for benefits others might not need?
> 
> 
> 
> I currently don't really feel I would get the full benefit of joining the TTOC for the amount of events and shows I would be likely to attend. Not for the price that is currently charged.
> 
> I know the pricing structure of membership has been changed recently, but I still think it needs some modernising.
> My thoughts would be a tiered membership.
> 1. A basic membership - no frills, just TTOC forum access and option to attend shows.
> 2. Basic membership with a discount for multiple years purchase.
> The magazine subscription, merchandise and any other extras as optional purchases at any time of the year.
> 
> The other option is basically to charge a little more for tickets to non-members. £2-£4 extra would be fine by me if I'm going to attend only one or two shows a year.
> 
> I know that TTOC has to protects its interests, but at the same time, you can't afford to alienate the fence sitters (like me) who don't see that it's currently worth joining the club. The bickering and fighting is off putting, not because I agree or disagree with anyone, but simply because I can't be arsed with the politics, and I do not want to have their show attendance dictated by a club that they are NOT a member of.
> 
> Generally, we need less bitching, point scoring and blame slinging, and more suggestions on workable solutions. I don't care if you all hate each others guts, but for the good of the forum, keep the personal feelings out of it as much as possible, and be objective.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's interesting that neither party has commented on this post. How rude to not even acknowledge it. If you really want an insight into what's wrong with the TTOC/TTF then you really should be listening to opinions like this. You might not agree with them but they're just as valid as your own. Without members you're nothing.
Click to expand...

It amazes me that people are so hard up for £25, a mere 150 miles of petrol, 4 packets of **** or 6 pints of beer. TT's are a prestige car (even the old mk1). People seem to put different values on £25 yet in reality it is less than 2 hours pay for the vast majority of owners.

As for shows, non-members have never been unable to attend any of the shows, they simply had to attend as a member of "joe-public", pay an entry fee as dictated by the organisers (with the exception of the TTOC evenTT*, these events are organised by a 3rd party with zero affiliation to the TTOC or TTF), park up and enjoy the event.

The fact that limited space is available to club stands and that parking in these spaces is made available to members on a first come first served basis is a privilege of being a member of the said club (be that club the TTOC, Club Audi, A2OC, A5OC etc) . This does not preclude non-members of any club as "joe-public" can walk on to any stand and chat about what that club has to offer and if so inclined can sign up to join that club.

The whole problem here is the animosity of ex-committee members with committee members and vice-versa.

* TTOC evenTT offers a non-member ticket


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## Lollypop86

rustyintegrale said:


> Lollypop86 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I dont think its an option of ignoring it but its a case of reading the information and taking a further look into it before anything is said
> 
> J
> xx
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, that's fair enough.
> 
> From 'Cherie's' point of view 'no response' looks like nobody is interested. Having taken the trouble to post, an acknowledgement would be a thoughtful gesture...
> 
> Just saying'...
Click to expand...

I think the point here is that no response was given from either side to avoid people then twisting what was being said in response which has already happened in here. Christ I've been told I should be banned because I was being nice lol

You cant do right for doing wrong it may seem

J
xx


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## rustyintegrale

mighTy Tee said:


> The whole problem here is the animosity of ex-committee members with committee members and vice-versa.


That may well be true and has been the case for longer than I care to remember. But even though we've known it the situation remains the same.

That's why I appealed for a line to be drawn. Without that fundamental agreement no progress can be made.

Regarding the cost of membership, I don't think it's the figure involved. I think it's more about perceived value for money. No matter what you earn, if you waste it you have to work a whole lot harder to replace it. Simple economics really...

Jess, in reply to your post. A simple 'it's being looked into' would suffice. As for the 'threatened banning', been there, done it, got the t-shirt. But if we're genuine about moving forward, any long-held grievances and differences have to be cast aside.

Jesus, it's like the UN in here! :lol:


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## eldiablott

rustyintegrale said:


> Plainly something isn't right in the relationship between the TTOC and the TTF.
> 
> But it's nothing new and various people (including me) have waded in from time-to-time and got nowhere really.
> 
> There needs to be a sea change in attitude from both parties in my opinion. A lot of water has gone under the bridge and some serious damage done to both clubs along the way. A line needs to be drawn and people should remember this is about a car we all share affection for. That's it. Anything else is both wasteful and unproductive.
> 
> I don't know if a sensible outcome will ever happen. There are personalities in both camps licking long-term wounds that are reluctant to budge, but without a willingness from all to sit down and thrash out the difficulties calmly, I doubt the situation will ever change for the better.
> 
> Personally I believe the two clubs would be stronger as one. I simply cannot fathom out what is to be gained by having two clubs except for those with egos to maintain.
> 
> If it is all about egos (as I suspect) then those in power would do better to massage the notion of unification instead of preening their own self-important feathers. That way all TT owners and enthusiasts would enjoy club membership more as well as ownership of the car.
> 
> It is the car we love and only the car we *all* have in common. You'd all do well to remember that.


ive never liked getting involved with this argument and just sit and read and shake my head tbh. its a shame its actually still happenening but Richards post above is singing from the same hymn sheet as me. well said.
Try having some mediation. were all adults and this could be sorted out very very easily with a referee if needed.


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## Roller Skate

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## rustyintegrale

Roller Skate said:


> So, what number attempt is this to sort this out Rich?
> 
> And what's the common denominator for not being able to resolve this every single time this s*** rears its ugly head again?


I've lost count...

Stubbornness mainly, resistance to change, resistance to give up 'ownership', ego...

All of which have to be left at the door before any start can be made.


----------



## eldiablott

rustyintegrale said:


> Nem said:
> 
> 
> 
> Unless anyone can genuinely come up with a plan?
> 
> 
> 
> To have any hope of coming up with a plan there needs to be an openness with some facts and figures.
> 
> So from the TTF please...
> 
> How much does the forum turnover per financial year and roughly what percentage is profit?
> Do any of the people maintaining the forum in whatever capacity get paid for doing so?
> Any benefits in kind at all? Please be honest.
> How many 'paid' people are involved and please confirm these are the forum owners/investors?
> How many 'active' members has the forum got?
> How many of the key team running the TTF actually own and run their own TT?
> How many TTF members do you estimate also belong to the TTOC?
> 
> And now the TTOC please...
> 
> How much revenue does the TTOC raise per financial year? Use 2013/4 figures if it's easier.
> How much of that is from memberships?
> In the same year, how much expenditure does the TTOC have?
> What happens to the surplus income if any?
> Who, if anyone on the committee, draws expenses or some other remuneration from the TTOC?
> Any benefits in kind at all? Please be honest.
> How many of the key team running the TTOC actually own and run their own TT?
> How many TTOC members do you estimate also belong to the TTF?
> 
> And a couple of questions for any TTF members who aren't TTOC members but would consider it (if you are anti TTOC regardless please do not respond). I'm trying to build a picture here...
> 
> How much would you pay annually to belong to the TTOC?
> Would you consider paying to join a combined TTF/TTOC and if so how much?
> Would you consider a 'tiered' membership where you pay more for benefits others might not need?
> 
> Okay, these are for starters. It would be helpful to have one member from each group only answer the questions. Please bear with me...
Click to expand...

WELL SAID. We have found the mediator needed.


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## Roller Skate

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Roller Skate

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## rustyintegrale

Getting back on topic for a minute, could someone please share with me the results of the TTOC committee elections last weekend and provide a list of candidates who offered themselves for election and in what role?

Thanks.


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## Lollypop86

rustyintegrale said:


> Jess, in reply to your post. A simple 'it's being looked into' would suffice. As for the 'threatened banning', been there, done it, got the t-shirt. But if we're genuine about moving forward, any long-held grievances and differences have to be cast aside.
> 
> Jesus, it's like the UN in here! :lol:


You say that, but to sit on the fence there is a handful of people, who, are hell bent on trolling TTOC posts, and not just on here on social media too, people who are members of the club but have been sucked into some sort of vortex and will go out of their way to pick apart of p*** off any member of the committee to provoke a reaction (am I saying that the TTOC are squeaky clean? hell no I'm not I have to keep telling the committee to put my lead on me  ), so although "peace" has not been reached, prior to certain people wanting to give their 2 penneth which actually did more harm than good we appeared to be moving in a much better direction.......that then broke down, again, but maybe have a look as to where that break down happened.

J
xx


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## cherie

mighTy Tee said:


> It amazes me that people are so hard up for £25, a mere 150 miles of petrol, 4 packets of **** or 6 pints of beer. TT's are a prestige car (even the old mk1). People seem to put different values on £25 yet in reality it is less than 2 hours pay for the vast majority of owners.
> 
> As for shows, non-members have never been unable to attend any of the shows, they simply had to attend as a member of "joe-public", pay an entry fee as dictated by the organisers (with the exception of the TTOC evenTT*, these events are organised by a 3rd party with zero affiliation to the TTOC or TTF), park up and enjoy the event.
> 
> The fact that limited space is available to club stands and that parking in these spaces is made available to members on a first come first served basis is a privilege of being a member of the said club (be that club the TTOC, Club Audi, A2OC, A5OC etc) . This does not preclude non-members of any club as "joe-public" can walk on to any stand and chat about what that club has to offer and if so inclined can sign up to join that club.
> ...
> 
> * TTOC evenTT offers a non-member ticket


It's nothing to do with not being able to afford £25 membership (I wouldn't have bought an Audi if that were the case), but everything to do with perceived value for money. I paid £75 for a book the other day, and it'll probably just sit on my shelf and look pretty, so I have no problem with paying, its what I'm getting for it.

I can only remember one car show that I've been to in the last 8 years where I've attended as "joe-public". Even on the last show I attended, where I didn't have a car on display, I organised the stand for a club so was there in an official capacity. I know you don't know me, as I can't say I'm a prolific poster, but you don't need to try and educate this newbie on shows and stands. :wink:



> The whole problem here is the animosity of ex-committee members with committee members and vice-versa.


Part of the animosity is the whole separation between TTOC and TTF members for shows, and the 'you can't play with us unless you hand over your pocket money' ethos.



rustyintegrale said:


> Okay, that's fair enough.
> 
> From 'Cherie's' point of view 'no response' looks like nobody is interested. Having taken the trouble to post, an acknowledgement would be a thoughtful gesture...
> 
> Just saying'...


No need for the inverted commas, it's my actual real life name.


----------



## Lollypop86

Roller Skate said:


> The whole Idea of the TTOC is it runs as a non profit organisation, so, as far as i'm concerned if it's about money it needs to change that view and run itself as a business.


I'm going to pipe up about this bit because it appears that many people have this assumption that the committee just sit back and let things runs and that just simply is not the case.

I work for one of the top 20 charities in the UK and for any of the press that people have seen of late charities are getting hit quite hard, and its effecting me and my teams due to the area that I work in. Now I work 9 to 5 for BAU I use my breaks to continue to have conversations with the people I need to have conversations with during working hours and then I go home turn on my personal laptop and start on TTOC bits that can vary from contacting dealers, 3rd parties etc etc and I will continue to work till atleast 11pm unless I'm at the gym or other plans but its probably 4 out of the 7 nights a week. Now not to blow my own trumpet but I put that work in for the paying members who will benefit from what I am doing.

Those who attended the AGM on saturday evening will have known that I've gone above and beyond what I probably should be doing to ensure that whilst other commitments of committee members prohibited them that EvenTT was going to be awesome, do I feel like the committee deserve a bit of a break, yes I bloody well do, because whilst everyone is bashing us for having big ego's etc etc you dont see the back end work that is going on, or know of the amount of time that is being spent to ensure that the club runs for the paying members.

So instead of this turning into yet another Committee bashing session lets make this a little bit more productive.

J
xx


----------



## Lollypop86

Roller Skate said:


> The TTOC needs to stand on its own two feet. Like Kev said, 10 f****** years and all that's gone on in that time is basically the same egos stamping all over the place and nothing, NOTHING has been done by the TTOC to move itself forward.


Just because you dont see everything doesnt mean that nothing is happening

J
xx


----------



## Ikon66

Well that escalated quickly :roll:


----------



## rustyintegrale

Please can we all calm down otherwise this will get nowhere like every other attempt.

Jess, nobody disputes what the committee does. For what it's worth I was on it for a short while myself and the workload (amongst other things) got the better of me.

If the committee is so 'devoted' to the club then why can they not listen to the thoughts of the members (and non-members) who are devoted to the car?

It is the car that the club should be about surely? Not personalities. The committee is elected to represent the members' interests and nothing else.

The same can be said of the TTF.

Getting back to the basic premise for a minute. The TTOC is a car club for enthusiasts. The TTF is a car forum for enthusiasts.

What I see here is some kind of rag tag and bobtail argy-bargy between basically like minded people. What is this Dad's Army?

It should be all about the car not an internal battle for overall supremacy. Nobody owns the membership.


----------



## jamman

Richard do you not realise there's certain members on here (new or old :wink: ) that have no interest in sorting this out and jump onto any thread about TTF/TTOC to simply bait/troll until the thread degenerates.


----------



## John-H

Could people on all sides please be civil with no personal attacks otherwise the opportunity for discussion will be lost as the thread will be locked. Please respect the forum rules.


----------



## Roller Skate

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Lollypop86

rustyintegrale said:


> What I see here is some kind of rag tag and bobtail argy-bargy between basically like minded people. What is this Dad's Army?


You missed out the naked hugs bit....wont get offered that on any other car forum 

J
xx


----------



## jamman

I give up....


----------



## spike

rustyintegrale said:


> Getting back on topic for a minute, could someone please share with me the results of the TTOC committee elections last weekend and provide a list of candidates who offered themselves for election and in what role?
> 
> Thanks.


Results where current committee re-elected, in same roles.

No-one stood for inclusion on committee.


----------



## Toshiba

Maybe the moderators and admin people should be re-elected every year and run the forum for the members rather than as something else.. that way members from the TTOC could have a chance of running the forum too....


----------



## Bartsimpsonhead

Toshiba said:


> Maybe the moderators and admin people should be re-elected every year and run the forum for the members rather than as something else.. that way members from the TTOC could have a chance of running the forum too&#8230;.


As explained here, the Forum is a business owned by the Canadian company VerticalScope (through TyreForums) and they appoint the admin and mods as they see fit - I imagine from their point of view, for VS/TF's employees to establish a working relationship with, and possibly have to mentor on the duties of, new admins and moderators every year on how they would like the Forum run would unnecessarily tie-up their staff's valuable time and resources.
So I doubt they'd go for having to deal with newly appointed mods/admin every year.

And as it is, at least 95% of the Forum members don't seem to have a problem with the ones we've got already. For the other 5% who are unhappy, well, there are other forums available if they so choose&#8230;


----------



## Bowen

Hi,

As a relative newbie (I joined years before I had a TT as I knew I always wanted one), I honestly have no idea what the hell is going on. I don't think I am alone in that either, other newbies must feel the same.

At this years AITP, I couldn't figure out the whole TTF and TTOC. I am not asking for an explanation nor do I believe I would understand it if it were explained to me but some people need to grow up.

TTOC and TTF both own the same cars and have the same passion, yet argue.

They say hate is the first sign of love.


----------

