# Intott's GT2871r Roadster - For Sale



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Hi all, iv been a member for around a year now so i thought id put together a bit of a build thread.

Iv taken this from the Briskoda Fourm (has a mk 2 fabia VRS before the TT) but will be adding more bits n bobs to get it up to date.

Scouted around for a few months and found the one I wanted with the right engine and one the Mrs liked so she couldn't moan about me working on it.

Just down the road with 70k, fsh and an honest untouched engine.





It drove ok but loads of jobs needed doing after the first week of ownership.

Bulbs changed straight away



It's got xenons as standard with washers and self leveling so no work to be done there. That was until I realised one of the washer jets was dead so changed that. Pita job but satisfying and good to inspect the intercoolers for leaks - all good there



Further fiddling in the engine bay showed that I'd actually bought a bit if an unloved tt. The injector seals were seaping, pcv system was perished and clogged. Rocker cover leaking, just to name a few.

Took this in the process of sorting it out



And thought I'd get into a bit of engine bay styling.....y not. Maybe a bit ott but that was the intention for this car



After doing this I realised the timing belt was slack so held my head down and took it to a garage to get it replaced.


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

I took the OZ superturismo wheels off the skoda and they turn out to be a match for the tt with some new rubber. I finally finished the referb and was happy to put them on. Still got the oringinal TT wheels which im not sure what to do with









this is with 20mm rear and 15mm front spacers

About a month ago i fitted a nice shiny 2.75" in Milltek, i didnt just want to delete the middle silencer as i was planning on going to a full miltek at some point.







with the engine supposedly sorted, i took it to midland VW for a revo stage 1

I fitted a boost gauge which said all was good, holding around 10psi of boost stock.

First run on the rollers (the wife even came lol) the car was stinking of egg did a good number of runs, logging this and that and it looked like clogged cats.

Q a 3" milltek downpipe and 200cel cat

I had this fitted at midland VW and was booked in on the same day for a revo stage 2. I put a larger bore TIP and pipercross panel filter, fresh plugs and worked on getting the vacuum pipes refreshed and re routed, new hocky puck breather, MAF and 1 way check valves to make sure all would be well for the mapping.

excuse the tapped on DV control solenoid as i was in the process of moving this but had to get to work.







I was really miffed when the fitter said that the subframe cross member fouled on the DP. We decided it would be ok to do a bit of chopping to get the work done. im yet to weld it back on tho



no knocks or vibrations to report but it it vv close to the propshaft flange tho!

ran it up on the RR and there still was an obvious issue with it. The guys putting the revo thought it may be a dodgy map so flashed the revo stage 2- and ran it up again........



Took it home now thinking the turbo was caput.

fortunaly, i did a double check of all the vacuum hoses and found that i was running with a leaking N249 Valve, i was basically leaking boost back into the tip and a bit through the value. now running with this bypassed and i have a peak of 23psi with this dropping and holding at 19. This is with the revo map turned down a bit as we thought the turbo was on its way out. It seems not.

Im yet to take it back to Midland VW and put it on the rollers as i have been getting other engine and handling mods done before.


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Badger 5 TIP



Also fitted over the last few weeks are

ECS wishbones and bushes,
ECS dogbone,
Bilstein B12 kit,
oil pick up pipe, 
drilled/vented discs

Latest

N75
CTS
Pre cat o2 
DV #710p
hockypuck PVC
MAF

Deleted

breather pipes from under inlet manifold to CCB
N249

Cleaned the interior today and worked on the seats. Happy with the results



Bought a new hu today. Pioneer dab, bluetooth. Really nice unit and works seamlessly with the phone music, spotify and calls.



Routed in the mic



Stuck on the antenna



amair filter fitted today. Needed a bit trimming off the inlet pipe to fit but nice piece of kit for the price.


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

New oil cooler fitted along with thermostat. I noticed the expansion tank was going a bit yellow even tho it was new a few months ago. I thought this oil coolant heat exchanger could be the culprit. Not exacly interesting but some pics anyway.

Draining coolant



Expansion tank removed





And cleaned



Thermostat buried away.

 


Oil drained then filter removed exposes the oil cooler. 


Oil cooler off. 


And new cooler in. 


Re attached all pipes and filled with fluids and she's away again. Peace of mind job more than anything.


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

just received some goodies from Awesome GTI.

ECS R8 coil packs and holder plate.

Real nice bit of kit and compared to the price for just the OEM coil packs of £134 the upgraded ones and mount plate came to £147 with next day delivery. Will post some pics up later on today.

Also got a new noise - sounds like tappet rattle or something wondering if its only appeared since i replaced the oil cooler. Doesn't sound nice at all so think ill replace the breather prv check valves and inspect the hoses. hopefully nothing to worry about but it wasnt there a few weeks ago.

Source of the noise was from me removing the rubber seal from the scuttle panel. Nice and quiet again now it's back on.

The coil packs made a huge difference in the power delivery and all round smoothness of the engine. Look sweet too.



The rocker cover needed a repainting to so gone for black high temp this time. 
A quick snap from today's visit to midland vw for Chris to tweek the revo map and new cv boots.



Dyno graph.

The rollers apparently read low at midland vw but.

Dark blue line was when the stage 2 was first put on. I had a duff n249 valve so leaking boost.

Pink line was this mornings first run.

Light Blue line today's last run with the revo map given more timing and a bit more boost.


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

First time since ownership I gave the Titty a full detail. Took 2 days which include fitting a V6 bumper but I think was well worth it. Interior took a few hours but now smelling fresh.

I can't stop sneaking out the house for a peek as it's never looked better.

Run down of the job

Snow foam
Detox shampoo 
Clay bar with Maguires ultimate
Snow foam
Dry
Dual action polish with t cut silver finish 
Snow foam
Meguires convertible top cleaner and jet wash
Snow foam
Glass polished
Autogylm hd wax hand applied
Engine bay cleaned with elbow grease and rubber cleaner

Hope you like too.


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

The above is where i was around 6 months ago and have done quite a bit since then so ill update this later on tonight.


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## Beunhaas (May 14, 2014)

Nice to have a build topic in between all problem topics lately.

Car is looking good, especially with the V6 bumper and OZ rims 8)


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## bdc6570 (Jun 5, 2009)

Great post...I love the journey with its low and highs.. Massive well done fella 8) 8)


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

:mrgreen:


bdc6570 said:


> Great post...I love the journey with its low and highs.. Massive well done fella 8) 8)


Thank you. It's kept me busy that's for sure!


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Rocker cover painting.



Rocker cover fitted back on with new gaskets to cure an oil leak on the half moon thingy at the back right.

Had the inlet mani off and had to skim 0.4mm off the head side face to get it flat. Gave it a lick of paint too.

While I was at it i made up an ally heat shield which seems to do a pretty good job.









I have recently fitted the ecs adjustable fpr so I can switch between the bosh and deka injectors (trying to get unsettings dialed in :/). The gauge fits nicely under the charge pipe but still easy to see.


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## Converted2VW (Feb 13, 2011)

Awesome work and the car looks great!!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Some shots of the interior.









Not quite finished it yet. I'd like to wrap the door insert to match but they seem difficult to remove from the door card......


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Converted2VW said:


> Awesome work and the car looks great!!!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks muchly


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Did a few pre flight checks at the weekend. Im booked in for a Donnington park trackday which will be the first time ever for both me and the car so hopefully we both hold up ok 

Compression test

Cyl1


Cyl2


Cyl3


Cyl4


I've also got a leak down tester which I planned on doing but I thought it too much of a ballache.

Also had new boots fitted. Nexen n8000. I want to say now that i bought these on a budget. I had toyo parada s2 on and these were lovely. I only planned on changing the worn front 2 for the trackday but realised that one of the rears had a screw on the outside which couldn't be repaired  I couldn't afford 400 odd quid for 4 decent tyres so had to go with the nexens. 
The sidewalls are so much softer than the toyos so initial turn in is a lot more vague giving less feedback so it's difficult to know the grip levels. I'm a bit annoyed at this tbh as would have liked good rubber at Donnington. On the plus side there more comfortable and quieter.

A shot near a field when out running in the new tyres.



And it rained today.

Like water of ducks back





The engine is going to depart from the car this weekend. A change in job means I don't need to used the TT as my daily drive so it's time for new rods, head rebuild and hopefully manifold, turbo and wmi.


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## ProjectMick (Sep 29, 2015)

Love the interior bits in purple! Looks like there has been lots going on.

Is that a trackslag charge pipe or something else?


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

ProjectMick said:


> Love the interior bits in purple! Looks like there has been lots going on.
> 
> Is that a trackslag charge pipe or something else?


Thanks. The interior is supposed to be blue!  probably the camera light.

Yes it's a trackslag pipe. Got it direct new for around £100. Makes the engine bay look a lot better imo.


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Trackday completed. Did around 20 laps before having to stop due to no brakes at all. Smoke pouring from the front two. Was epic fun either way and had no problems up until the last half hour.

Tyres were awful though. Understeer was a joke until they where warm.

Onto today. Engine out time.



Coolant hoses off all as one unit including after run pump, thermostat and temp sensor housing 


Wires all labeled up



Ready to remove driveshafts, drop the subframe and p steering next.

First time removing an engine so having fun. Anyone know of an engine stand that can be used with the gearbox left on?


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## Beunhaas (May 14, 2014)

I have never seen an engine stand where you can leave the gearbox on except for a wooden pallet :lol:

Its only 6 bolts something to take the gearbox off. Easy job while the engine is out.

What is the plan for the engine?


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Beunhaas said:


> I have never seen an engine stand where you can leave the gearbox on except for a wooden pallet :lol:
> 
> Its only 6 bolts something to take the gearbox off. Easy job while the engine is out.
> 
> What is the plan for the engine?


Funny you say that. Here's that wooden pallet. It's supporting the engine in a way that I can get the sump off  plus, didn't need to used an engine crane at any point.







Plan for the engine is new rods, head rebuild and a general clean up. Turbo and manifold are also on the cards for an upgrade.

No cracks evident so far



Oil line is very close to failing


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Found many many cracks after taking the turbo off. One big one which goes all the way through the side of hot side and 4 cracks at the collector


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## AceWalsall (May 26, 2016)

Great work mate, makes me wish i knew something about engines! i would love to attempt something like this but i would have to pay someone to do it as i know next to nothing lol, keep the updates coming [smiley=thumbsup.gif]


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

AceWalsall said:


> Great work mate, makes me wish i knew something about engines! i would love to attempt something like this but i would have to pay someone to do it as i know next to nothing lol, keep the updates coming [smiley=thumbsup.gif]


Cheers. This is my first effort at a full engine out job so much if it is new for me. Having been in engineering since 17yo helps though. I'll only be happy once the car is back on the road driving so not home n dry yet!


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

New exhaust manifold purchased today. 
Please can you chime up with your views as I'm a turbo newbie but there are so many mixed reviews on every single one. I initally wanted to run a ported oem mani but having seen the state of the one that came off my car, i would not be willing to buy a used one let alone port it. There is no clear standout with regards to longevity vs/or performance so it's been difficult to make a decision.

So considering cost, fitting effort, gains and most importantly longevity, I went with the RSP 304 stainless with t25 flange. On eBay for £249.

I took a drive to RSP in Sheffield and had a great chat with Gareth. He pulled out both versions of the mani, 2mm and 3mm wall, and left me to mooch over them for ten minutes. After hearing he runs the same make on his 500hp skyline which was parked out front with no issues I ended up buying the 3mm version.

With a little fettling inside the runners, I hope this mani with a gt2871r will see 300bhp with a nice torque curve but keep egts low (800ish) enough to minimise stress on the turbo and manifold.

Oh I have no idea yet if this will fit in the engine bay so I'll just have to cross that bridge when I get to it.....


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Exhaust manifold trial fit.



I offered up the engine back into the bay and it looks like it's going to be very tight when the turbo is also mounted. Its having a rhd car which is the pita. AC pipes, brake res and steering column are all where the down pipe wants to be. 

Now im waiting on the turbo to arrive, I've started stripping the head to clean the valves and fit new oil seals. Done one valve (left) so far with a brass wire wheel. 


This was the worst intake valve which I assume to be due to a leaking oil seal? 


I've had to give up on the exhaust side due to the cam carrier bolts being so tight, I've gone through 4 t30 bits! On order are a set of impact driver torq bits so hopefully that'll get the bugger out.


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Few pics from the trackday


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Pistons out today.


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Conrods ordered today. I gone for zrp 20mm rifle drilled with standard size acl race bearings

http://www.tsr-performance.com/webshop/ ... e-drilled/


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Head stripped ready for new valve seals and a clean



Exhaust ports cleaned


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## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

intott said:


> Head stripped ready for new valve seals and a clean
> 
> 
> 
> Exhaust ports cleaned


Good build thread intott, keeping my eye on this.


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

After some input on porting the head ports.

Can I blend the ally with the valve seat? Shown below what I mean


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## longodds (May 8, 2014)

It might be me having a thick morning, but can you explain or describe what you mean by 'blend the ally with the valve seat'?


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Sorry, there is a lip where the valve seats are pressed into the head. I want to grind this step away so there is a nice transition from the steel of the valve seats to the aluminium of the head. Basically port the area between the two read lines on the image above.


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Exhaust valves went in my little Maplins ultrasonic tank today.



Left valve fully clean after 20mins, right valve had a 2min dip.

Done them all now but debating if i should polish them or not?


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Turbo arrived yesterday.





Going to be honest. No way was I willing to pay 1000pounds or so for a genuine garrett turbo so I've gone for a reconditioned unit for 530pounds with a years warranty. I hope it's up to the job! I also fully cleaned the turbo using some parts cleaner and I was surprised how much cack came from the chra. Just on the hunt now for oil and coolant lines. The oem coolant banjo bolts are the correct size, just the oil feed line which is different. 7/16 - 24 I believe.

I'll post more pics tonight as the Mrs called up this morning to tell me the rods have arrived  

Time to see if it'll all fits in the engine bay!


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Cylinder head cleaned and ported today. When I say ported, I have only removed the casting marks not opened anything up. Just need to get the face skimmed and a final cleaning than the head is going back together. Will be replacing all of the valve stem seals but keeping the original guides.







Still need to make a final pass on the ports to get a good surface finish but am just waiting on some dremmel bits to arrive.


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Also started stripping, cleaning and assembling the rods. I was quite surprised that the zrp rods are each almost 100g lighter than the oem rods.


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Onto the bad news, the RSP exhaust manifold won't work. It holds the turbo too far to the drivers side so there is no where to route the exhaust pipe.

On the plus side, it means I will be making a custom manifold. It will be from 304l with 3mm wall thickness. I am undecided whether to go for a top mount or bottom mount setup. Imy heading towards bottom mount to make life easier with the oil and coolant lines.

Ps. If anyone knows where to get 321 sch10 stainless bends please let me know.


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## Beunhaas (May 14, 2014)

Nice! Finally someone who makes his own manifold instead of wining about the lack of aftermarket (stock location) manifolds.

Personally i would go topmount because its tight to squeeze it down there. Especially with the transferbox on the Quattro models.


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Beunhaas said:


> Nice! Finally someone who makes his own manifold instead of wining about the lack of aftermarket (stock location) manifolds.
> 
> Personally i would go topmount because its tight to squeeze it down there. Especially with the transferbox on the Quattro models.


I'm thinking so long as it's correctly braced, equalish length and correctly welded i don't see why itll be so difficult. 
Do you think with top mount you will expose a roasting hot manifold closer to salt ect from the roads? I do see pros and cons to both so I'm definitely open to suggestions. I intend do all the build apart the welding as Iv only got a little clark90 mig so don't have the kit but it'll be purge welded using the correct filler rod for 304l. I'm estimating £300 tops.


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## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

This is a really good build thread, I challenge you to a power-off :lol:... See who's TT comes out with more power. I envisage them being close after reading that the GT2871R can produce 400BHP+, seemed a little much to me but I'm expecting the same from a bored out K04 hybrid turbo so people would likely think the same about my set-up. Should be interesting! GT2871R good on spool too!

Good luck, I'll race you to a finish as well haha .


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

TT Tom TT said:


> This is a really good build thread, I challenge you to a power-off :lol:... See who's TT comes out with more power. I envisage them being close after reading that the GT2871R can produce 400BHP+, seemed a little much to me but I'm expecting the same from a bored out K04 hybrid turbo so people would likely think the same about my set-up. Should be interesting! GT2871R good on spool too!
> 
> Good luck, I'll race you to a finish as well haha .


Bring it on!  I hope to have it back on the road in the next 6 months but my first child is due 10th July so we will see what swmbo allows lol

Tbh, I'm not expecting 400 more like 350 375 at a push. With wmi I think 400 is doable but my goal is to have a reliable as possible daily so I don't want to be running things up to their limits. For example, I plan on sticking with the oem smic. Imo it's high egts (850plus) which seem to be a big player in killing hardware.

I hope Wak is still working his magic when it comes time for this thing to be remapped !!!


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## Beunhaas (May 14, 2014)

intott said:


> Beunhaas said:
> 
> 
> > Nice! Finally someone who makes his own manifold instead of wining about the lack of aftermarket (stock location) manifolds.
> ...


The manifold is high and dry sitting behind the engine, transferbox and engine tray shielded by the elements.

I do remember that Nate made a nice bottom mount custom manifold for his turbo.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=231986&start=150


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## Beunhaas (May 14, 2014)

TT Tom TT said:


> This is a really good build thread, I challenge you to a power-off :lol:... See who's TT comes out with more power. I envisage them being close after reading that the GT2871R can produce 400BHP+, seemed a little much to me but I'm expecting the same from a bored out K04 hybrid turbo so people would likely think the same about my set-up. Should be interesting! GT2871R good on spool too!
> 
> Good luck, I'll race you to a finish as well haha .


I will do some 'modifications' to my setup in the next couple of months. May i join the challenge


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Got a quote back for butt weld 321ss 90deg long radius 1 1/4 sch40 at 19.45each!!!! On ebay for the same bend in 304l is less than half the price.......Doing some rough sketches I think I'll need 10 to 15 sections. So I'm looking at £300ish for the 321ss or half that for 304. What to do......buy nice or buy twice or will 304l with 3.5mm wall be OK?

Both 304l and 321 can operate at the same temperature but the 321 (321 = 304l + titanium) reacts differently when welded so will stand up better at higher operating temperatures.

Everything bar the cost is telling me to go with 321ss. Does anyone have any positive experience with 304 manifolds?


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

A very unhappy bunny!!! I sent the turbo off for balancing and have just had a call saying the shaft is bent cannot be balanced....wtf to do now?


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## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

intott said:


> TT Tom TT said:
> 
> 
> > This is a really good build thread, I challenge you to a power-off :lol:... See who's TT comes out with more power. I envisage them being close after reading that the GT2871R can produce 400BHP+, seemed a little much to me but I'm expecting the same from a bored out K04 hybrid turbo so people would likely think the same about my set-up. Should be interesting! GT2871R good on spool too!
> ...


Ahhh, now mine will be my daily too but I'm going to be using WMI, why not hahahaha ...



Beunhaas said:


> TT Tom TT said:
> 
> 
> > This is a really good build thread, I challenge you to a power-off :lol:... See who's TT comes out with more power. I envisage them being close after reading that the GT2871R can produce 400BHP+, seemed a little much to me but I'm expecting the same from a bored out K04 hybrid turbo so people would likely think the same about my set-up. Should be interesting! GT2871R good on spool too!
> ...


Sounds fun to me Beun !

Hoping mine will be finished off, mapped with dyno printout and weighed by my 23rd Birthday fingers crossed, October 16th. Good luck with the birth of your baby intott, oh and the child that's coming out of your partner :lol:...


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Finished off the port polishing so it's now time to lap all the valves and then send off for skimming and a proper clean.

Before



After


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Started the valve lapping today. I've only done 2 lol. Took some pictures of how I went. Not done this before but I think this is how it's done. The Bentley manual doesn't state any tollerences for valve play but they all seem pretty even.

Started with this 


Hand lapped only with fine chemico paste


2 minutes of lapping 



5 more



Bit more 





Polished with autosol?




Light rub with engineers blue 



18 more to go.......


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

A quick cad model of the exhaust manifold. Did this using 1 1/4 long radius butt welds so I know how many to buy.


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## CHAO5 (Jun 10, 2016)

Brilliant build mate. I'm going to be taking my coupe down a very similar route so will be watching this thread very closely 

How did you get on with the turbo bud?


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

CHAO5 said:


> Brilliant build mate. I'm going to be taking my coupe down a very similar route so will be watching this thread very closely
> 
> How did you get on with the turbo bud?


Thanks mate. More build threads are needed so make sure you post up 

Good news on the turbo actually. 
I was suspicious about there being an issue with it as nerings who I bought it from were very surprised when I said there was a problem with it. 
As I took the shaft and bearings out to give it a full clean I noticed a notch machined out of the rear face of the compressor wheel. I explained this to the chap at Central Turbos and asked him to clock the comp wheel 90degrees and see how the balance was. This seemed to work because the balance report showed 1.9grams out of balance at 90000rpm which was apparently well within specs. 
The added bonus was nerings the seller refunded me 50gbp for the balance costs 

Now, keep the internal waste gate or go external.......


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## hang your idols (Jul 8, 2013)

I have internal,but external it`s better.

PS.-nice build thread :wink:


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

hang your idols said:


> I have internal,but external it`s better.
> 
> PS.-nice build thread :wink:


I think that I'm going to stay internal due to costs for an external setup. A good wg is 200gbp plus!

Thanks


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Finally found some good parts cleaner which has done a great job on the head





Also thought it strip the lifers and see what's what. I'm assuming the oil inside has seen better days judging by how black it came out.



On another note i have decided to go with 321 stainless for the exhaust manifold so I'm awaiting on a delivery from the USA.  12 long radius sch10 butt welds should do the trick and give me a few spare if I cock up lol


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## 89forever (Jun 24, 2016)

Where have you got your flanges from?
I have a load of 1-1/2 sch10 321 butt weld elbows sat on the shelf. If i can obtain the flanges i may have another project lol


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

89forever said:


> Where have you got your flanges from?
> I have a load of 1-1/2 sch10 321 butt weld elbows sat on the shelf. If i can obtain the flanges i may have another project lol


Got (waiting on delivery) the head flange from here

http://www.retrofication.co.uk/670es.html

I'll probably just buy some 10mm plate for the turbo flange and diy it to match the manifold collector.


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## 89forever (Jun 24, 2016)

Thanks for that and good luck on your build


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Manifold pieces arrived today, just need to get a length of straight section now to be able to start the build.









Really looking forward to getting started on this!


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

As I don't think I'll be running the turbo to its full potential, I am going to port the wastegate to help dump the unwanted boost. I've heard that this step up can be susceptible to boost creep so wanted to nip it in the bud from the get go. It was also a good opportunity to property align the wg flap and take out the play in the disk. Got the angle grinder to remove the weld so the arm can be slid out from the housing


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

As I'm nearly ready to start rebuilding the engine, I've been getting on with cleaning bits up.

Oil filter housing



Polished up the piston crowns



Just need to figure out if I've ruined the piston rings by putting them in my ultrasonic cleaner. I really don't want to hone the block out if I can help it.


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

WG ported. Nice and easy tbh

From this




To this




Using this 25mm ball stone


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## Lukeyluke (Jul 8, 2016)

Great thread, amazing progress and work!!! Keep it up.
L


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## Beunhaas (May 14, 2014)

I always enjoy reading the updates on this thread. Great pics as always.


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## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

Never looked at this thread before ..yeh I know bitchslap to me.
Everythings just too damn clean for me ! :lol: thas a joke btw.
Stuff
I hope my turbo/connection is nothing like yours was.. cracks n so on.. If it is too bad Im not going to be taking it off 

My dull comments.. probably more excuse for me not stripping the engine.

The intake area and ports..This is only what ive read and minimal self doings.
Valve seating..you/I may have read about gas flowing valves in general.
In essence smoothing the sharp upper step/slight curveature on the upper seating ?
Ive done that(not on the TT ) dunno what good it did 

Gas flowing the inlet tracts.. (thats all Ive seen on mine :lol: ) The clone bentley manual I have says something like ,dont mess around with the intake porting, standard seat regrind if you must and thats about it , otherwise youll never get it to idle/run properly. Wrks for me I thought ..ie another excuse not to remove the head .

Shiny smoothness on intake tracts/removal of roughness and casting marks..should be good right?
There is a theory that this may prevent proper fuel mixing in a non direct injection engine or at least not do as much good as you might think.
EH?
Theory being the roughness promotes eddys/minor turbulence in the airflow which promotes mixing prior to combustion chamber , and if its too mirror smooth the fuel might stick to the walls a bit.
Once again thas good for me . Im a belieber!
Obviously with direct injection, doesnt matter cos the fuel is just sprayed into the cc.

If the inlet manifold was a little warped on mine..ts .I did use 2 gaskets :lol: , sort of a poor mans phenolic spacer but I did match up and grind the inlet manifold holes to gasket holes to head holes .
I used spray paint to match the openings..there were a few mm of overlap.

The rings, Id only be guessing( are they chromed as standard?), and I dont know what the overbore specs are on a TT engine but I suppose as a minimum you need to have the liners x honed anyway?


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Thanks for the comments chaps!

3TT3, i would rather have not removed the head at all but relatively speaking, pulling a head and giving it a going over does not cost much at all. Plus it's good fun! 
I think the 1mm layer of build up on the underside of the valves was robbing me of top end so I'm glad I did it. 
Yep. Correct the Bentley says had lap the valves only but I've never had a good idle on my tt so nothing to loose lol


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Just bought me an early birthday prezzie 

A cheeky little tig welder so I can do the exhaust manifold myself. For the price it would have been rude not to.



Just need some Argon and I'm good to go.


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Not an update but should make the rebuild a bit easier. New bench top to work on


----------



## IPG3.6 (Sep 5, 2015)

ooooh so it looks like you've got something super interesting going on!!!

I've got me a spare AGU head which i'm still waiting for time to be able to strip and refresh like you have done.

- any tips as to how you went about with the porting/smoothing?
- what kind of equipment and bits were you using?
- what the heck did you use to clean the thing up!?? Looks new LOL

also not upgrading the exhaust valves at all? reading around it seems like they are the ones that would be prone to go? (cost is [smiley=bigcry.gif] though)

Great thread so far and look forward to your results as i'm thinking of going down this way too


----------



## Beunhaas (May 14, 2014)

What did you do with the pistons to get them looking like new?


----------



## Madmax199 (Jun 14, 2015)

ianpgonzaga said:


> ooooh so it looks like you've got something super interesting going on!!!
> 
> I've got me a spare AGU head which i'm still waiting for time to be able to strip and refresh like you have done.
> 
> ...


Ian, you are absolutely correct, exhaust valves are the second weakest point in this motor (con rods remaining the biggest time bomb). A set of upgraded exhaust valves should be a the top of the priority list whenever doing a cylinder head.

My question is are you guys planning on revving past 8k RPM to take advantage of the large port head? Because if not, the lost of low-midrange TQ and port velocity will make it somewhat pointless (taking the penalty and not pushing it to where the benefits are).


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

- any tips as to how you went about with the porting/smoothing?
- what kind of equipment and bits were you using?

 I just used my flexible shaft on a dremmel with the sanding bits and taper cartridge rolls. I then moved onto scotchbrite wheels to finish. It took 3 weeks doing good a few hours a night. 
I have some concerns that I've removed the 3 angle cut on the valve seats. I definitely looked for this before smoothing the ports and was convinced that it didn't have it but maybe I was wrong. Either way it's only a single valve seat cut now. 
I'm by no means experienced doing head work but I hope that valve seat throat diameter isnt too critical and doesn't need to be within less than .25mm otherwise I've still got more work to do :? 

- what the heck did you use to clean the thing up!?? Looks new LOL

 I put the head in a clear plastic storage box, filled it with "Clarkes parts washer fluid" from machine mart and got scrubbing, jet washing then more scrubbing.

also not upgrading the exhaust valves at all? reading around it seems like they are the ones that would be prone to go? (cost is [smiley=bigcry.gif] though)

huuummm, I didnt realise they were so prone to fail. I will look into this more.

Great thread so far and look forward to your results as i'm thinking of going down this way too[/quote]


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Beunhaas said:


> What did you do with the pistons to get them looking like new?


I put them in my ultrasonic tank for 15mins which removed all the oil staining and 90% of the carbon. then used scotchbrite wheels on a dremmel to clean the remaining stuff off between the top ring and the crown. I didn't touch anything below the rings. 
Polished the crowns using 400 to 2500girt wet n dry then finished with autosol


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Madmax199 said:


> ianpgonzaga said:
> 
> 
> > ooooh so it looks like you've got something super interesting going on!!!
> ...


----------



## hang your idols (Jul 8, 2013)

A good job is to change the guides and seats,at least this is what i`ve done,including upgraded springs.


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

hang your idols said:


> A good job is to change the guides and seats,at least this is what i`ve done,including upgraded springs.


How much did the guides and seats cost to have done if you dont mind my asking?


----------



## IPG3.6 (Sep 5, 2015)

intott - lucky i chimed in 

Would it be beneficial doing the springs too? i don't know at this power level but would be good to know for sure!



hang your idols said:


> A good job is to change the guides and seats,at least this is what i`ve done,including upgraded springs.


how did you go about changing the guides if doing DIY?

i don't understand how they go in - they look like bullets LOL


----------



## hang your idols (Jul 8, 2013)

intott said:


> hang your idols said:
> 
> 
> > A good job is to change the guides and seats,at least this is what i`ve done,including upgraded springs.
> ...


Was less 80pounds if you are asking about labor cost,but i`m leaving in a cheap country


----------



## hang your idols (Jul 8, 2013)

ianpgonzaga said:


> intott - lucky i chimed in
> 
> Would it be beneficial doing the springs too? i don't know at this power level but would be good to know for sure!
> 
> ...


I didn`t done it myself,but a mechanic.


----------



## IPG3.6 (Sep 5, 2015)

it looks like they need to be forced out either by pulling or using air hammer tools

i didn'dt realise doing the valve train upgrade would cost so much though!


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

A 'new' purchase - a wee bandsaw of flea bay to make life easy cutting the collector pipes. 
A rough ass jig made up so I can make each collector tube the same.




3 down n 1 to go so will be ready by the weekend to mock up the manifold


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Placed an order direct through ecs tuning 2 days ago it was delivered today! Happy days

Along with a few other bits were these



Supertech inconel exhaust valves. These are the none sodium filled versions


----------



## IPG3.6 (Sep 5, 2015)

you got them 

nice one! got a link to these??? look forward to seeing you tackle the head build 

p.s. got the blue cable in. so i hope i can get it working to do proper logs hey!


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

ianpgonzaga said:


> you got them
> 
> nice one! got a link to these??? look forward to seeing you tackle the head build
> 
> p.s. got the blue cable in. so i hope i can get it working to do proper logs hey!


Its all your fault! I was ready to reuse the oem valves but you've just cost me an extra 200odd quid! :lol:

Here's the link 
https://www.ecstuning.com/b-supertech-p ... aevi-1103/

swmbo has allowed me use of the craft room to rebuild the head so I can keep things clean clean clean. Many more pics to follow


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

ianpgonzaga said:


> p.s. got the blue cable in. so i hope i can get it working to do proper logs hey!


Good stuff. Drop me a line if your having any issues. BTW, logging with me7logger is addictive lol


----------



## IPG3.6 (Sep 5, 2015)

:mrgreen:



intott said:


> Its all your fault! I was ready to reuse the oem valves but you've just cost me an extra 200odd quid! :lol:


----------



## IPG3.6 (Sep 5, 2015)

Madmax199 said:


> My question is are you guys planning on revving past 8k RPM to take advantage of the large port head? Because if not, the lost of low-midrange TQ and port velocity will make it somewhat pointless (taking the penalty and not pushing it to where the benefits are).


Max does this then mean the whole valve train needs doing?


----------



## m1tch (Aug 9, 2016)

I am looking forward to see how this project goes, it seems exactly the sort of route I will probably go down at some point (need a TT first!).


----------



## 4low (Dec 3, 2009)

Good work


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Been slow progress but got a good amount of work done on the head. 
Skimmed 6tho, lapped each valve, new valve seals and cleaned.







Put all the springs and back in then followed up with filling each cylinder with spirits to check for any leaks. We seamed all good there.







All cleaned and sealed up ready to start work on the exhaust manifold







Rods and rings are build back up, balanced to 1.2grams. Today's job will be to clean the bores and install the rods then bolt the head up.


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Rods and rings reinstalled. Head bolted down and all timed up.


----------



## Beunhaas (May 14, 2014)

Good progress mate!

Did you weight each rod piston assembly before bolting them to the crank?


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Cheers bud.

Yep, they came out as 993grams +/- 0.5 so a little lighter than your IE rod assy but I would rate the ie as superior to the zrp rods.

Interestingly I also noted that the supertech inco exhaust valves were a few grams heavier than the stock. I assume this isn't good when higher up the the rpm range. I dont plan on revving often over 6k so should be ok


----------



## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

intott said:


> Cheers bud.
> 
> Yep, they came out as 993grams +/- 0.5 so a little lighter than your IE rod assy but I would rate the ie as superior to the zrp rods.
> 
> Interestingly I also noted that the supertech inco exhaust valves were a few grams heavier than the stock. I assume this isn't good when higher up the the rpm range. I dont plan on revving often over 6k so should be ok


Holy crap, those are some heavy rods! Mine are only 600g's!

Three builds all coming along nicely at the same time (lots of stuff being done to mine as we speak by my friendly mechanic). Your head is so shiny 8)   !


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

TT Tom TT said:


> intott said:
> 
> 
> > Cheers bud.
> ...


Just to clarify 993grams is including the piston wrist pin and clips, rings, bearings and bolts. Rods were 523.5. One word tho, make sure you clean out the rifle drilled hole too. A load of crap came out from one of mine.


----------



## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

intott said:


> TT Tom TT said:
> 
> 
> > intott said:
> ...


Ahhhhh! I was going to say, excellent tip - thanks!


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Started on the manifold mockup. Obviously I'm not listening to the current topic on cracked stainless manifolds.  I am where I am in this build now so we shall just have to see how it holds up.

Trial fit in the bay and it looks like there's room but will have to fettle the heat shield to clear. Plan is to use the existing lower turbo support bracket and retain as much of the oem placement as possible. 
Downpipes going to be a bitch.


----------



## kane (Jul 26, 2010)

There's plenty of space here, 








for either the dp or the runners... But it looks kinda thight fitting both, together with the drive shaft :lol:


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Manifold is coming on slowly but it fits nicely. The runners are not ideal but it's the best I can do with where the turbo needs to sit. 
Also, I can reuse the oem oil drain, feed and coolant return lines  only need to make up a new coolant feed pipe. 
I will need to use studs on the manifold to turbo but bolt access everywhere else is fine. I will also be able to retain the heat shield which holds the charge pipe (with a little tweeking) so it should look almost oem in the bay when finished.

Anyway some more pics


----------



## IPG3.6 (Sep 5, 2015)

i can't believe how ridiculously sterile you got everything to be! LOL


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Cleanliness is key and it's also rather satisfying. The wife has wondered why I can't keep the house as tidy as this lol


----------



## IPG3.6 (Sep 5, 2015)

have you made sure to go M10 on the 4 mani to turbo studs? i read that they tend to back out


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

ianpgonzaga said:


> have you made sure to go M10 on the 4 mani to turbo studs? i read that they tend to back out


Yep yep, m10 is what I've gone for. I'm currently trying to track down some quality fasteners. Inconel studs would be ideal  Stage 8 fasteners look good but not cheep.


----------



## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

ianpgonzaga said:


> i can't believe how ridiculously sterile you got everything to be! LOL


Yep me too!

That manifold that you're building yourself is pretty incredible! What's it made from and at what thickness?


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

TT Tom TT said:


> ianpgonzaga said:
> 
> 
> > i can't believe how ridiculously sterile you got everything to be! LOL
> ...


Cheers mate.

The material is 321 stainless and it's 3.2mm wall thickness. I think in one of the previous pics, the specs are printed on the bend.
I've used 347er stainless filler wire, pure argon gas and will be welding with gold tungsten at about 80amps. Gap will be 1.6mm and back purged. It will take a lot of argon to weld this thing!

- taken from AK STEEL

Type 321 is a stabilized austenitic stainless steel similar to Type 304 
but with a titanium addition of at least five times the carbon content. 
This titanium addition reduces or prevents carbide precipitation during 
welding and in 800 - 1500 °F (427 - 816 °C) service. It also improves 
the elevated temperature properties of the alloy. 
Type 321 provides excellent resistance to oxidation and corrosion and 
possesses good creep strength. It is used primarily in applications involving 
continuous and intermittent service temperatures within the carbide 
precipitation range of 800 - 1500 °F (427 - 816 °C). 
Typical uses include annealing covers, high-temperature tempering 
equipment, diesel and heavy duty automotive exhaust systems, firewalls, 
stack liners, boiler casings, welded pressure vessels, jet aircraft 
components, radiant superheaters, bellows and oil refinery equipment.


----------



## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

intott said:


> TT Tom TT said:
> 
> 
> > ianpgonzaga said:
> ...


Sounds strong!


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Haha, good response. We will see.

A few shots from tonight's efforts. 1 runner left to tac up.


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Finished the mock up of the mani today. I'm pretty pleased with it.

I'm not 100% happy due to the unequal runner lengths and that I've have to go with a less than ideal merg collector. 
Thermal expansion is also a concern due to 2 long runners and 2 short runners.

Final thing left to do before welding up is to decide where I want the egt probe to go. Am I correct to think the egt probe is a m12x1.0mm?

A few pics


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

A few trims to the heat shield and charge pipe bracket and we're nearly there


----------



## jamman (May 6, 2002)

fingers crossed it works for you as hoped mate


----------



## Beunhaas (May 14, 2014)

Good process! Whats the reason you choosed for a design like Relentless instead of something you had before (that didnt fit) or a ramhorn design?


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Thanks Jamman.

Beunhaas, 
I went with this design for a few reasons. I didn't want a top mount turbo as I just think that a lot more changes need to be made for it to work. I also wanted to retain as close to stock position as possible and to do that a ram horn design would not fit.


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

A few pics of it offered up


----------



## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

I think that regardless of whether or not this works (I don't see why not) you should be very proud of what you have achieved. That manifold looks like it has been professionally made, very impressive - really is. I have my fingers crossed for you that it flows nice (sure looks like it will) and that it is a good reliable tank of a manifold !


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Made the necessary cut outs to the charge pipe bracket to clear the manifold and then welded some sheet to protect the head from radiation. Painted in red high temperature paint to carry on the red theme


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Been slow progress but a few more purchases 

MAF controlled wmi kit bought from Peartcart12 



And pipework for the downpipe. Gone with 3 inch as there's no way I can go any bigger.



Took the wire wheel to the milltek and look! It could pass for being brand


----------



## IPG3.6 (Sep 5, 2015)

almost look unused!

how do you get the waste gate flapper off? I wanna port mine. think it would be easier without the flapper


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

ianpgonzaga said:


> almost look unused!
> 
> how do you get the waste gate flapper off? I wanna port mine. think it would be easier without the flapper


You need to grind off the arm which connects the actuator rod to the flapper shaft . I made a new one of these from 2mm plate which you will need to tig back on to the shaft. Not difficult to do if you have 2 tools above


----------



## IPG3.6 (Sep 5, 2015)

intott said:


> ianpgonzaga said:
> 
> 
> > almost look unused!
> ...


grinder - yes. big welder. no [smiley=bigcry.gif]


----------



## DC240S (Sep 24, 2014)

I wish I could add a technical contribution but I can't - what I will say is this all looks amazing!


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Manifold now finished and at the machine shop for flange skimming.



Oil feed line should arrive tomorrow and half the downpipe is tackd up. We're getting there


----------



## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

intott said:


> Manifold now finished and at the machine shop for flange skimming.
> 
> 
> 
> Oil feed line should arrive tomorrow and half the downpipe is tackd up. We're getting there


Sweet ... Are you running gasketless too?


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

hey Tom, I will be running with a gasket - the full metal type. If Id had the cylinder head skimmed than I would have run gasketless.


----------



## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

intott said:


> hey Tom, I will be running with a gasket - the full metal type. If Id had the cylinder head skimmed than I would have run gasketless.


Noooo, I mean between your collector flange and turbo hot-side inlet flange?


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Oh sorry I see. Well the turbo is also away for skimming so I guess I could. Not really seen any definitive evidence for or against tbh so the current plan is to use a gasket.


----------



## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

intott said:


> Oh sorry I see. Well the turbo is also away for skimming so I guess I could. Not really seen any definitive evidence for or against tbh so the current plan is to use a gasket.


One less thing to fail, not many people do it though. I have done it with both skimmed faces, not sure how successful yet as I've only done 300 miles. Badger5 has done it to his Lupo too and I think possibly Max may have done it too but I'm not certain. It's one less thing to fail under all the heat I suppose.


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

I've spent a bit more time looking and I'm seeing more and more success without a gasket so I'll just run without and see. Did you choose to use a any sealing paste or just bolt straight up?


----------



## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

intott said:


> I've spent a bit more time looking and I'm seeing more and more success without a gasket so I'll just run without and see. Did you choose to use a any sealing paste or just bolt straight up?


Bolted straight up, didn't want to risk using paste and have it squeeze into the hole and be blown into the turbo blades albeit that would be extremely unlikely!


----------



## Madmax199 (Jun 14, 2015)

Gasketless is better whenever both surfaces are true (which they are in this case). Apply a thin coat of synthetic bearing grease between the flanges when mounting -- the grease will squeeze into any microscopic imperfection. After a few heat cycles the grease will turn into carbon and completely seal the surfaces even cold before heat expansion takes place.

PS: good job on the manifold btw!


----------



## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

Madmax199 said:


> Gasketless is better whenever both surfaces are true (which they are in this case). Apply a thin coat of synthetic bearing grease between the flanges when mounting -- the grease will squeeze into any microscopic imperfection. After a few heat cycles the grease will turn into carbon and completely seal the surfaces even cold before heat expansion takes place.
> 
> PS: good job on the manifold btw!


Will mine probably be fine despite there being no grease?


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Great advise chaps - thanks.

Max, cheers. I know it's not your choice in mani type but it has been good fun to make. Would I do it again probs not.


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Found a pic on Google of what hope the setup will look like with the divorced downpipe.


----------



## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

intott said:


> Found a pic on Google of what hope the setup will look like with the divorced downpipe.


Will that not foul on the prop-shaft?

Looks like it comes across to the left quite a lot? If that picture is of a build that's already done then obviously it will be all good or else it would have been mentioned.

Just thought I'd bring that up as by eye it seems like it may be an issue. I had the same issue with my build recently so thought I would highlight it on the off-chance, hopefully I'm off the mark .


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

This chap may have got away with the routing he has taken but I have taken the 4wd into account and there shouldn't be an issue. I plan on merging the wastegate pipe to downpipe toward the underside of the turbo on the short radius (if you get me). This should help speed up the exhaust gas where it's speed is the slowest(at the short radius). That the theory anyways.

I'm using the miltek iv taken of to replicate the lower half of the downpipe, then change the half after the propshaft flange to meet up with the new turbo outlet position.


----------



## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

intott said:


> This chap may have got away with the routing he has taken but I have taken the 4wd into account and there shouldn't be an issue. I plan on merging the wastegate pipe to downpipe toward the underside of the turbo on the short radius (if you get me). This should help speed up the exhaust gas where it's speed is the slowest(at the short radius). That the theory anyways.
> 
> I'm using the miltek iv taken of to replicate the lower half of the downpipe, then change the half after the propshaft flange to meet up with the new turbo outlet position.


Yep, totally understand what you mean. Sounds all good to me, who are you getting to do your mapping?


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

TT Tom TT said:


> Yep, totally understand what you mean. Sounds all good to me, who are you getting to do your mapping?


I would ideally have WAK work his magic but there is also the option for R-Tech which are only a few miles away from me. 
I believe its £650 for the remap from R-tech but im not too sure what a WAK BT remap cost would be. 
The other option which i am v tempted to do is Eurodyne Maestro.


----------



## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

intott said:


> TT Tom TT said:
> 
> 
> > Yep, totally understand what you mean. Sounds all good to me, who are you getting to do your mapping?
> ...


650 ... I think Wak would manage a more competitive price than that with a similar (if not better) result.

Badger5 told me that any 1.8T custom re-map is around the 450 mark so that price from R-tech I find staggering!


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Ye Wak is just a bit out the way. 2 hours drive without a tune. Should be ok but buggered if anything goes wrong


----------



## Fastasaudi (Oct 10, 2016)

intott said:


> Ye Wak is just a bit out the way. 2 hours drive without a tune. Should be ok but buggered if anything goes wrong


But a totally awesome drive home..!!   8)

CJ


----------



## Beunhaas (May 14, 2014)

Does the seperate tube for the wastegate flow work when you dont have and divided hotside outlet like for example the evo turbo's? Yours isn't devided so you are creating an obstacle where the flow splits into the two tubes and merge later in the downpipe. Just a thought


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Fastasaudi said:


> intott said:
> 
> 
> > Ye Wak is just a bit out the way. 2 hours drive without a tune. Should be ok but buggered if anything goes wrong
> ...


Ha, too true! The first time I took a visit to wak I ended up getting 40mpg on the way home - I was obviously doing something wrong lol


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Beunhaas said:


> Does the seperate tube for the wastegate flow work when you dont have and divided hotside outlet like for example the evo turbo's? Yours isn't devided so you are creating an obstacle where the flow splits into the two tubes and merge later in the downpipe. Just a thought


Its all in hand Beunhaas!  I will be adding the dividing wall to the downpipe flange. Pretty much identical to this.


I'm currently waiting for this flange to arrive from sasautocustoms


----------



## Beunhaas (May 14, 2014)

intott said:


> Beunhaas said:
> 
> 
> > Does the seperate tube for the wastegate flow work when you dont have and divided hotside outlet like for example the evo turbo's? Yours isn't devided so you are creating an obstacle where the flow splits into the two tubes and merge later in the downpipe. Just a thought
> ...


Ahhh now i see, the divider is on the flange on this one. Pretty cool! Are there any claimed benefits?


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Beunhaas said:


> intott said:
> 
> 
> > Beunhaas said:
> ...


Benefits would be to reduce pressure and disturbance at turbine exit. Venting further down at the short radius turn where the main gas flow will be slowest. In turn helping reduce back pressure even more. 
So maybe a couple of bhp lol


----------



## Beunhaas (May 14, 2014)

Pretty cool principe. I know the evo guys like to run the wastegate pipe to atmosphere for sound like a screamer pipe.


----------



## IPG3.6 (Sep 5, 2015)

intott said:


> WG ported. Nice and easy tbh
> 
> From this


what is this tool called???


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Internal spring calipers bud. Very cheep and normally come as a set.


----------



## IPG3.6 (Sep 5, 2015)

excellent

thank you! found a set for about 8 pounds in aus money.

reminded me that i really should get one of these to be able to do porting work on the head to get it nice and even

Also - can you please take a picture of your compressor wheel? from dead front on and also on an angle - i wanna see how far up the blades reach out from the inlet??


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

ianpgonzaga said:


> excellent
> 
> thank you! found a set for about 8 pounds in aus money.
> 
> ...


Will do no problem. On holiday till Tuesday so I'll put some picks up when I get back. Can you draw a sketch of what you need.

Why what's your plan?


----------



## IPG3.6 (Sep 5, 2015)

just to compare the wheels to see what i've got one mine 

currently waiting for the CHRA to get balanced


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)




----------



## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

Pretty! First picture I've seen of a CHRA cartridge which isn't a "stock photo" if you know what I mean.


----------



## IPG3.6 (Sep 5, 2015)

Nice one!! Thanks for that. How about with it in its housing and taken at an angle so can see how far up the inlet the top blades reach?

Or maybe if you can measure their height? Just curious to see what I've got LOL



Sorry I'm being a pain LOL

But. As for a contribution here's mine.


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

It's all good mate. What fourms are for.



Didn't take a height measurement but will do one tonight.

Looks like your comp wheel is different to mine though. What is your turbo?


----------



## IPG3.6 (Sep 5, 2015)

ace thanks 

i just wonder why some shafts stick out like ours and some other don't

i built this one it's GTX2871r spec, ceramic BB and metal cages


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Few bits n bobs done this weekend.

Cleaned the gearbox down a bit




Gave the turbo a clean and sorted out the actuator alignment


Turbo oil feed line made up


Ball bearings ftw


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Downpipe mocked up.

Need to adjust a few of the bends but I won't be fully welding up until the engine and subframe are back in the car.


----------



## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

Lovely work as usual, what size is your down pipe?


----------



## IPG3.6 (Sep 5, 2015)

with your oil feed line - is there a restrictor in there? or is the restrictor inside the turbo enough for the job?


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

TT Tom TT said:


> Lovely work as usual, what size is your down pipe?


 3" all the way Tom. Didn't go with the divorced setup in the end as was too much of a faf.


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

ianpgonzaga said:


> with your oil feed line - is there a restrictor in there? or is the restrictor inside the turbo enough for the job?


Yep, restrictor is in the chra as far as I can tell.


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Deciding that upgraded engine mounts cost far far to much, I got some 60shore polyurethane to fill the oem bushes. Not sure how they'll perform or how long they'll last but for 15quid it seemed worth a shot.

I sealed off the back of the mounts after a thorough cleaning and just poured it in.


----------



## IPG3.6 (Sep 5, 2015)

intott said:


> Deciding that upgraded engine mounts cost far far to much, I got some 60shore polyurethane to fill the oem bushes. Not sure how they'll perform or how long they'll last but for 15quid it seemed worth a shot.
> 
> I sealed off the back of the mounts after a thorough cleaning and just poured it in.


i'll be doing this to some spare mounts i've got laying around. interested to see how these go


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Fyi the oem mounts are oil filled. One of mine had started to leak so popped the mount apart and got friendly with the degreaser.


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Delivery today 

Superpro front roll bar bushes, steering rack bush and a new dipstick lower guide tube.



Also got started on final assembly of the turbo and connecting lines


----------



## IPG3.6 (Sep 5, 2015)

any luck being able to measure comp wheel height?

because i got these & would be good to compare with yours


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Hi mate. I only measured the height from one of the blades and it came out as 24.7mm iirc.


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

On the home stretch now. Engine is back in 




Plenty of room


----------



## IPG3.6 (Sep 5, 2015)

thanks for the measurement info 

install looks good! not gunna heat shield the hell out of the area around your manifold? stuff's going to get hot...


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

ianpgonzaga said:


> thanks for the measurement info
> 
> install looks good! not gunna heat shield the hell out of the area around your manifold? stuff's going to get hot...


No problem.

Yep will be adding heatshields. I'm fortunate that the oem shield still fits which I was very chuffed about. I'll be doing a modified version of my first attempt on the stock setup (below) but this time wrap it around each side a bit more to cover the comp housing and the o2 sensor. 


I'll heat wrap the downpipe too as the during the trackday at Donnington park I noticed that behind the dash and near the steering was getting warm!


----------



## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

It's so clean and beautiful ... How long until done approximately now?


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

TT Tom TT said:


> It's so clean and beautiful ... How long until done approximately now?


Hey Tom, I hope to fire the engine up early next week  I am nearly wetting myself with excitement. Just waiting on hanger rods for the downpipe, silicone hose for the tip (will be modifying the badger5 intake), track rod ends, drop links and some new brake pads.

One this is done it's then onto the pita of remapping


----------



## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

intott said:


> TT Tom TT said:
> 
> 
> > It's so clean and beautiful ... How long until done approximately now?
> ...


Sweet, I'm excited too - I'm sure all will be well! In what way are you modifying the TIP? Inlet into the turbo?

Who's doing your mapping?


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Ye I hope so too! No brown trouser moments please TT!

For the tip I'll be chopping off the elbow and replace with a 90 degree 3" piece and straight coupler. Reason behind is wanting to keep all the existing connections for the dv etc in their original place.


----------



## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

Ah yeah, definitely a good idea to do that rather than faffing about trying to re-route things / make things fit. You've done enough of that already :lol:!


----------



## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

Real nice,
http://www.ebay.ie/itm/161986786774?_tr ... EBIDX%3AIT
or
http://www.ebay.ie/itm/161986779440?_tr ... EBIDX%3AIT
just ordered some myself.


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Thanks for the link 3TT3. They are on my list.

Have also been eyeing up these for the rocker cover

Look at this on eBay http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/231905601131

The term bleeding money comes to mind!


----------



## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

wow yeh! especially if I wanted some.8 quid postage to Ireland for 1 with superfast 8-12day delivery [smiley=dizzy2.gif] :lol:


----------



## Beunhaas (May 14, 2014)

Are you keeping the stock maf? Its limited to around 365 hp.
An s4 maf is good to about 410 and people do push that power on a gt2871r
Or an rs4 maf, good for at least 530 hp


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

I was only looking at mafs last night. I think ill stick with the 225 maf for now as I won't be looking to push things. Stock compression etc I think anything over 350 and I'll be happy. Egts must be getting up the there at 410 if it's on a .64 housing.

I suppose depending on which tuner I choose, they may suggest a maf which will work best. Also if I run wmi I guess the maf estimate changes a little


----------



## jamman (May 6, 2002)

Looking forward to seeing this completed.

It's all about the mapping......


----------



## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

Beunhaas said:


> Are you keeping the stock maf? Its limited to around 365 hp.
> An s4 maf is good to about 410 and people do push that power on a gt2871r
> Or an rs4 maf, good for at least 530 hp


409hp made on AET-380 with stock MAF :?..? I thought running blind wasn't difficult for a good tuner?


----------



## Matt B (Apr 8, 2007)

I take it you mean stock MAF housing ? I have standard 225 MAF in a custom housing and you can see from my signature that didn't limit the output to 365 :?


----------



## Beunhaas (May 14, 2014)

Sorry for the confusion, I meant the housing indeed. Stock 225 sensor.

Running blind isn't that much of a problem but why not also ditch your lambda sensor, egt sensor and knock sensor?
It adds redundancy to the engines input parameters to have sensors that are within operating range.

How much work is it to put a bigger maf housing in there? S4 can be picked up for 25€ and rs4 for 50€.


----------



## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

Beunhaas said:


> Sorry for the confusion, I meant the housing indeed. Stock 225 sensor.
> 
> Running blind isn't that much of a problem but why not also ditch your lambda sensor, egt sensor and knock sensor?
> It adds redundancy to the engines input parameters to have sensors that are within operating range.
> ...


Wideband ME7 ECU's are limited to 365bhp / 292 grams per second of airflow but despite this good tuners will be okay.

Wideband ECU's just get on with it, narrow band ECU's need a bit more effort but Badger5 has tuned 450hp Ibiza with a GT3071 on narrowband ME7 with an S3 MAF housing... So I'm sure that running a little over 365 (10-15% or so) with a wideband (assuming intott has a BAM and not APX) shouldn't be much trouble for anyone competent. Even if it is an APX it's been done as above.

Might as well just make this adjustment rather than swapping out hardware as well only to then need to re-scale the tune due to the MAF not knowing what's going on due to the changed MAF diameter.


----------



## Beunhaas (May 14, 2014)

TT Tom TT said:


> Beunhaas said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry for the confusion, I meant the housing indeed. Stock 225 sensor.
> ...


Im no software expert myself but if im correct this is how it works.
Over the maf limit and the only thing a wideband ecu does is adjust fuelling to the disired afr with the help of the lambda sensor.
On a narrow band when maf is maxed then the fuel maps are extrapolated based on engine rpm. No afr so its pretty tricky without feedback.

Changing maf means the ecu still reads to 292 but you use a multiplication depending on the increased area for real airflow. Bumping duty cycle or fuel pressure with the same ratio is enough. Ecu got all parameters it was designed for but the logged maf g/s should be mulitplied with area increase for real maf flow.

I know wat i would pick [smiley=book2.gif]


----------



## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

Beunhaas said:


> TT Tom TT said:
> 
> 
> > Beunhaas said:
> ...


If that was the easiest of the options available why wasn't it utilised?


----------



## Beunhaas (May 14, 2014)

Easiest, don't know. Most safe yes.

Why? maybe another money scraper that budgets on everything?

Is there a build thread or results post where you can ask the owener why he went this route?

Some tuners don't like different maf sizes becaus rescaling is too much hassle for them. (i doubt that's the case at badger 5)

sorry Intott for this hijack


----------



## Madmax199 (Jun 14, 2015)

TT Tom TT said:


> *Wideband ME7 ECU's are limited to 365bhp / 292 grams per second of airflow *but despite this good tuners will be okay.
> 
> *Wideband ECU's just get on with it, narrow band ECU's need a bit more effort* but Badger5 has tuned 450hp Ibiza with a GT3071 on narrowband ME7 with an S3 MAF housing... So I'm sure that running a little over 365 (10-15% or so) with a wideband (assuming intott has a BAM and not APX) shouldn't be much trouble for anyone competent. Even if it is an APX it's been done as above.
> 
> Might as well just make this adjustment rather than swapping out hardware as well only to then need to re-scale the tune due to the MAF not knowing what's going on due to the changed MAF diameter.


Where are you getting this information from Tom? There is no power limit on the ECUs period. The airflow readings or voltage readings of the MAF sensor can get maxed out, but that has nothing to do with any sort of power limit. In cases where you're exceeding the airflow the MAF can read, you have a few options to continue having accurate fueling. Here are the two most popular ones:

- One option is to run the MAF sensor in a bigger housing (increasing its airflow range and limit), and then appropriately rescale in the software. For example I ran S4 3" ID MAF housing for years with my stock sensor to avoid seeing voltage limits of the sensor (I ended up maxing that out eventually when I went hybrid).

- The second popular option is to abandon the MAF-based fueling model period. There is alternate fueling model called Alfa-N in the ECU as a back up. That's what is in control when you disconnect your MAF for example. So in cases where you want to ditch the MAF for its limitations or whatever reason, Alpha-N can be activated as the main fueling logic. It works and works well when tuned properly. It tends to be less refined when wild changes in the operating conditions occurs (you no longer have and accurate measurement of the mass air seeing in all conditions). So dramatic changes in altitude, temperature, etc. migh require some minor adjustments, but for the most part it's a solid and reliable fueling method.

The power limit the engine see has nothing to do with the upper limit of the MAF voltage. Maxing out a sensor simply means you lose fueling accuracy past that airflow point and a work around is needed.


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

This is all good talk. I'm out my depth with sensor scaling to will leave that to the pros

I do believe I can get where I want to be on the stock sensor. Iv seen some post around where the maf was maxed out early on but monitoring of map, iat, knock etc there seemed no problems.

A question though, why couldn't you scale the maf the other way?


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Over the next few days all remaining parts should arrive. 
Today came the heat wrap from Dei. Used the sleeving for the water return line and o2 sensor and also wrapped the downpipe.


----------



## Beunhaas (May 14, 2014)

what do you mean by scaling the maf the other way?

Good solid progress btw. These are the things people under estimate while thinking about a BT conversion. (including myself :lol: )


----------



## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

Max, I meant the MAF, I don't know why I mentioned the ECU.

Beunhaas, I just realised that there's something I didn't consider in all of this... a 3" MAF as you've mentioned would be better for a bonus reason that I hadn't thought about it would make the air induction system all the same size ... Potential small gain to be had that I didn't consider [smiley=book2.gif]!

Into, lovely wrap, everything's looking shiny as usual 8)!


----------



## Madmax199 (Jun 14, 2015)

TT Tom TT said:


> Max, I meant the MAF, I don't know why I mentioned the ECU.
> 
> Beunhaas, I just realised that there's something I didn't consider in all of this... a 3" MAF as you've mentioned would be better for a bonus reason that I hadn't thought about it would make the air induction system all the same size ... Potential small gain to be had that I didn't consider [smiley=book2.gif]!


Changes that improve airflow pre-turbo can never be small. They are often overlooked but pay huge dividend in overall power. A motor can only move what the compressor is able to ingest and compress (talking about air). So whenever you add/remove restrictions pre-turbo you will see a big jump in measured mass airflow... and that translates to power if you have the fuel for it. Why do you think I don't run a TIP at all? Because it's a big airflow restriction removed pre-compressor (I saw a good 5-10% increase in Volumetric efficiency values in the ECU when I did this, and the entire VE map had to be bumped/retuned to reflect the improvement).


----------



## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

Madmax199 said:


> TT Tom TT said:
> 
> 
> > Max, I meant the MAF, I don't know why I mentioned the ECU.
> ...


It's certainly as good as I'm going to get I think! MAFless tunes / air filters bolted straight onto compressor inlet in this country are border-line unheard of - it's embarrassing really!


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

The TT is alive and im smug as f#ck

I took a video of the first start up but im not going to share it as I sound like a 3 year old at Christmas.

Here's what went down, 
Filled the coolant and oil up. Disconnected the injectors and turned the engine over on the starter motor a few times to get the oil circulating. Plugged back in the injectors, turned the key and it fired up - just - running rough. Turned off after remembering I hadn't plugged in the WMI injector nozzle hole. 
Plugged the hole, turned the key, fired up immediately and ran absolutely perfectly - no clunks, rattles, nothing. It was remarkably uneventful. Left it running for 15 minutes to get it up to temperature. 
After a quick inspection the only issue I had is a small coolant leak from the water line on the back of the turbo. Tightened this up a bit more so will see tonight if its been resolved.

Jobs left to do before its back on the road:

- tighten subframe and prop shaft bolts
- new track rod ends
- new droplinks
- new front pads
- bleed brakes
- bleed clutch


----------



## jamman (May 6, 2002)

Great news mate well done

I remember doing a load of work on my car when I installed my WMI and I left the pipe off that goes on to the throttle body sounded like a tractor sh1t myself :roll:


----------



## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

intott said:


> The TT is alive and im smug as f#ck
> 
> I took a video of the first start up but im not going to share it as I sound like a 3 year old at Christmas.
> 
> ...


Excellent news 8)


----------



## Beunhaas (May 14, 2014)

[smiley=mexicanwave.gif]

So how are you going to run it in? Baby it or let it warm up and drive like you stole it


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Cheers Boys,

As I haven't changed the rings, which are the most important things to break in properly, im not going to follow a strict break in procedure. Im just going to get it fully warm, then run it to about 5000rpm at WOT through 2nd, 3rd and 4th a few times, then change the oil after about 20 miles. 
Ill bump the primary fuelling up using unisettings so I don't run lean, then set about mapping after 100miles or so - hopefully any issues will have raised their heads by this point. What do you guys think?


----------



## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

intott said:


> Cheers Boys,
> 
> As I haven't changed the rings, which are the most important things to break in properly, im not going to follow a strict break in procedure. Im just going to get it fully warm, then run it to about 5000rpm at WOT through 2nd, 3rd and 4th a few times, then change the oil after about 20 miles.
> Ill bump the primary fuelling up using unisettings so I don't run lean, then set about mapping after 100miles or so - hopefully any issues will have raised their heads by this point. What do you guys think?


Sounds good to me.


----------



## Beunhaas (May 14, 2014)

In that case there are no metal to metal surfaces to match so a bit of new oil + filter and you should be fine.

I would run it with n75 disconnected until mapping and fueling should be within range. Interested to see logs of spool and what actuator pressure will be.


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

A quick pressure test of the coolant system revealed that the coolant feed line is leaking. Typically it's the most difficult bloody pipe to get at. Oh the joys of working on the floor outside at 0 degrees


----------



## IPG3.6 (Sep 5, 2015)

Beunhaas said:


> In that case there are no metal to metal surfaces to match so a bit of new oil + filter and you should be fine.
> 
> I would run it with n75 disconnected until mapping and fueling should be within range. Interested to see logs of spool and what actuator pressure will be.


WELL DONE!!!

*golf claps all around*

i also am keen to see logs as this is similar setup to what i'm doing - minus the amazing custom tubular mani


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

A quick video of the engine warming up. Water leak now fixed and all that's left to do is put wheels on and the front bumper then wait for a dry day


----------



## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

intott said:


> A quick video of the engine warming up. Water leak now fixed and all that's left to do is put wheels on and the front bumper then wait for a dry day


and I thought my engine was bloody bad for the valve clattering noise! Feel a little better now haha. Great work though in all seriousness.


----------



## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

intott said:


> A quick video of the engine warming up. Water leak now fixed and all that's left to do is put wheels on and the front bumper then wait for a dry day


Grats.. :lol: love that clip..look here..and did you see this bit.. wait I missed a spot.
Is 100 miles enough?..dunno If it was me Id go for clutch bedding in length ,say 500 miles n maybe do some overrun just to be sure.
Thas just me.


----------



## HemiCUDA1313 (Oct 13, 2014)

Really nice work. Great to see all of the progress through this thread.


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

TT Tom TT said:


> intott said:
> 
> 
> > A quick video of the engine warming up. Water leak now fixed and all that's left to do is put wheels on and the front bumper then wait for a dry day
> ...


Thanks Tom. I think the phone video amplifies the tappet and injector ticking. It's actually quieter than it was before the rebuild.



3TT3 said:


> Grats.. :lol: love that clip..look here..and did you see this bit.. wait I missed a spot.
> Is 100 miles enough?..dunno If it was me Id go for clutch bedding in length ,say 500 miles n maybe do some overrun just to be sure.
> Thas just me.


I'm glad you can see my excitement 3TT3, it's difficult to get across sometimes.....I'm a happy bunny.



HemiCUDA1313 said:


> Really nice work. Great to see all of the progress through this thread.


Thanks Hemi, the build from getting the engine out the car to back running took just less than 7 months. It's a good job I have an understanding Wife!!!!


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Snow performance wmi installed this weekend. 
Made a bracket to support the pump and tapped into the windscreen washer reservoir. I'm going to see how a single nozzle works for me and go from there.

I'm yet to mount the controller but have a cunning plan for this

A few pics of the install


----------



## watersbluebird (Oct 26, 2015)

intott said:


> Snow performance wmi installed this weekend.
> Made a bracket to support the pump and tapped into the windscreen washer reservoir. I'm going to see how a single nozzle works for me and go from there.
> 
> I'm yet to mount the controller but have a cunning plan for this
> ...


Great work. Can you leave the windscreen washers to function as well as have the water methanol injection? And is your pump higher than the tank? Will it work if it is?


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

watersbluebird said:


> Great work. Can you leave the windscreen washers to function as well as have the water methanol injection? And is your pump higher than the tank? Will it work if it is?


Yes all windscreen and headlight washers still work. I also get the low level warning on the dis too.

I was concerned about mounting the pump so it has to draw fluid from the tank but I tested the pump and it draws fine even 1m higher than the fluid line. I can shoot a quick video of the setup in action of you would like visual confirmation?


----------



## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

intott said:


> Snow performance wmi installed this weekend.
> Made a bracket to support the pump and tapped into the windscreen washer reservoir. I'm going to see how a single nozzle works for me and go from there.
> 
> I'm yet to mount the controller but have a cunning plan for this


Hmm v interesting 
must be the time of year for it 
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1474154

so the cms plate is correct fit for the snow injector(s), injector in nice n flush?
What kit did you get?
You think youll be ok with just the washer bottle?
What % mix are you running in it ?,like what did you use for the methanol/alcohol .
Nozzle size ?
The solenoid : (Ive yet to buy one) and buying from snow eu it would cost me 100 euro. Looks a bit tinny compared to the one they used to have.
Did you buy it separate?.
Oh and hurry up and get the controller mounted..my kit will be arriving soon you see :lol:


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

3TT3 said:


> intott said:
> 
> 
> > Snow performance wmi installed this weekend.
> ...


----------



## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

Ah, thx ..n gli wi it , mine 210# has some kind of double nozzle control which does what ? that a bigger nozzle and progressive injection wouldnt do Im not sure  aside from having to buy 2 solenoids! to use the feature.


----------



## watersbluebird (Oct 26, 2015)

intott said:


> watersbluebird said:
> 
> 
> > Great work. Can you leave the windscreen washers to function as well as have the water methanol injection? And is your pump higher than the tank? Will it work if it is?
> ...


A video would be helpful to see what's going on lol. 
Thanks for the reply.


----------



## SinfulDesignCom (Mar 2, 2013)

Interesting to note that your kit has the nozzle so close to the inlet. Was this suggested in the install instructions? Was is specifically stated for the 1.8T?

I ask as I was specifically directed to install my nozzle 6-8" from the plenum. My setup works very well, but that's not to say this is not an improvement. I do not know enough to comment. According to my sources, it was all about giving the mix time to correctly atomise/soak, thus giving the best possible cooling properties.


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

SinfulDesignCom said:


> Interesting to note that your kit has the nozzle so close to the inlet. Was this suggested in the install instructions? Was is specifically stated for the 1.8T?
> 
> I ask as I was specifically directed to install my nozzle 6-8" from the plenum. My setup works very well, but that's not to say this is not an improvement. I do not know enough to comment. According to my sources, it was all about giving the mix time to correctly atomise/soak, thus giving the best possible cooling properties.


I think the throttle body spacer was purchased separately and is just a convenient way to mount a nozzle. The install instructions only stated to use the anti siphon valve if mounting the nozzle post throttle body.

To get the most cooling you are correct to place the nozzle downstream of the tb but also direct in each of the runners - cooler iat readings and in cylinder cooling. However depending on setup there is only so much the iat can be cooled. If you run high compressor outlet temps then cooling the charge becomes more important

I don't plan on staying with the throttle body spacer as I would like to have a nozzle pre map sensor and then in each runner. I don't won't to run pre intercooler as it just doesn't sit right.

First time I've installed a wmi kit so I'm just going play trail and error to see what works best for my setup. For now the tb spacer is a starting point


----------



## SinfulDesignCom (Mar 2, 2013)

intott said:


> SinfulDesignCom said:
> 
> 
> > Interesting to note that your kit has the nozzle so close to the inlet. Was this suggested in the install instructions? Was is specifically stated for the 1.8T?
> ...


Would be good to see some figures - but is a costly exercise. I suppose it is still a relatively "new mod on the block". I found this out when I could find no-one to help me set it all up! Was very much trial and error on my part. Very glad I did it, although at the time with little help, there were moments of despair having spent close to £500 and a number of days getting it installed correctly. But hey, that's why we buy these cars right?


----------



## Gonzalo1495 (Oct 13, 2014)

SinfulDesignCom said:


> Interesting to note that your kit has the nozzle so close to the inlet. Was this suggested in the install instructions? Was is specifically stated for the 1.8T?
> 
> I ask as I was specifically directed to install my nozzle 6-8" from the plenum. My setup works very well, but that's not to say this is not an improvement. I do not know enough to comment. According to my sources, it was all about giving the mix time to correctly atomise/soak, thus giving the best possible cooling properties.


For a basic setup this might be true. But remember there are various ways to achieve quick atomization. Of course the easiest way and the one we see here being implemented is having the injection occur extremely close to the intake runners. With a good enough pump and small enough injectors. You will get enough atomization that it won't be a problem. Setting up the controller however is a different story and that takes trial and error to dial it in.


----------



## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

Since Im still on theory phase(kit not delivered yet  ):
If worried about pump height vs resevoir height /nozzle height,couldnt you invert the pump on its mounting?


----------



## SinfulDesignCom (Mar 2, 2013)

3TT3 said:


> Since Im still on theory phase(kit not delivered yet  ):
> If worried about pump height vs resevoir height /nozzle height,couldnt you invert the pump on its mounting?


As my manual states, the pump is a "pusher" rather than a "puller", hence being gravity-fed from the reservoir is best practice. I have both mounted in the boot, so the pump is at same height. Have run it to just below the low warning with no problem.


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

3TT3 said:


> Since Im still on theory phase(kit not delivered yet  ):
> If worried about pump height vs resevoir height /nozzle height,couldnt you invert the pump on its mounting?


I could but it means the pump flow direction goes against me. And I would still have to route the feed line up near the pollen filter so the pump would still have to draw from that effective height, in other words it wouldn't matter.

The pump draws fine 1m above the reservoir. I tested this before fitting to the car. Iv already purged the system by running a whole tank through and all is fine. Yes it would be ideal to mount the pump lower than the fluid line but I couldn't in my case.

However, I have decided to move the pump a few inches away from the maf sensor as I'm worried that it's going to interfere with the readings? Mounting from the arb bracket should work so will get on that when it stops raining!!!


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Ok so went for a quick shakedown run today.

A few issues  it's rather laggy but after 4000rpm it goes a bit mad. 
I'm not sure if it's because the traction control was kicking in (esp light flashing)or its due to the fact that I saw 30psi at about 4500rpm but the engine doesn't like something. 
The full log file is attached so I was hoping some of the gurus could help me out pretty please.

I can see that afr starts leaning out at 4100rpm, requested boost and ignition are cut at 4700rpm. I'm not seeing and timing corrections though??? Is this due to lambda control exceeding 20% during the lean condition?


----------



## ryanmtt (Sep 13, 2010)

Looks like a very tidy install


----------



## SinfulDesignCom (Mar 2, 2013)

Was it a case that it couldn't be taken to red line?

Lambda looks consistent with air temp, remembering this will then be subject to significant reduction. How are you dialing in the WMI?

But spreadsheets... Sounds like it could be one for the "Wakster"....


----------



## Madmax199 (Jun 14, 2015)

intott said:


> Ok so went for a quick shakedown run today.
> 
> A few issues  it's rather laggy but after 4000rpm it goes a bit mad.
> I'm not sure if it's because the traction control was kicking in (esp light flashing)or its due to the fact that I saw 30psi at about 4500rpm but the engine doesn't like something.
> ...


A few good things, you have enough injectors, your IAT is very good, your EGT is good. You do need to provide better data before anyone can have a full picture. Do full pulls from 2,000 to redline, give rpm reference to the data, and add cylinder misfire to the data collected. And finally trim the fat, only keep what's on the pull.

Looking at the graphed curves (on my phone) boost actual is not meeting request at all until late. This is confirmed by looking at mass air grapgh, you're flowing nothing until late. Whatever is causing this, you fix it and it'll be a totally different animal. What wastegate and internal spring rate are you using?


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

SinfulDesignCom said:


> Was it a case that it couldn't be taken to red line?
> 
> Lambda looks consistent with air temp, remembering this will then be subject to significant reduction. How are you dialing in the WMI?
> 
> But spreadsheets... Sounds like it could be one for the "Wakster"....


No couldnt take it to redline as ecu was cutting something. Iat were down at 16deg C so nothing up there.

Not touched wmi yet. Need to get the boost under control


----------



## Madmax199 (Jun 14, 2015)

intott said:


> SinfulDesignCom said:
> 
> 
> > Was it a case that it couldn't be taken to red line?
> ...


Can you check your misfire under load?


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Madmax199 said:


> intott said:
> 
> 
> > Ok so went for a quick shakedown run today.
> ...


Hey Max thanks for taking the time.

I'll add in miss fire next time. The graphs are the full pull starting at just over 2k and is where I went wot. Throttle pos is in the data. I didn't take to redline as traction control kicked in so I backed out.

The wastegate gate is set to open at just under 1bar, this was with preload set as tight as it would go.

I can't really give anymore data than provided but I'll tweek the graphs to show rpm ref


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Madmax199 said:


> intott said:
> 
> 
> > SinfulDesignCom said:
> ...


I'm worried that running it up again will do damage as it's starting to run lean at 4krpm


----------



## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

Disclaimer,everything below could well be bs 

I can barely read my own logs, let alone anyone elses  but 
Did you reset the tb?
Since your not using the wmi at all yet might as well put the spacer plug in for now?

The excel 97 I use :lol: the columns are blending together a bit 
It looks like youre requesting 30 psi at 2800 rpm (bit optimistic  ) and then you eventually get 30 psi at just over 4000 rpm , is that right ?..and thats when you start to get the a/f ratio problems.
From 4000 on youre "requesting" 32 psi and getting near that but thats where the leaning is happening and no 3 cyl in particular is starting to knock. Thats the hot one right , in general?
Egts like above are a lot better than mine ! but its comparatively low rpm.

Was it fully warmed up and what were the oats today?

It seems it takes a lil while to spin up full even tho giving some boost earlier maybe exhaust gases arent hot enough [smiley=dizzy2.gif] .gm/s figures look mighty impressive!

Whats the injector duty cycle % like when it starts to go lean?
Yes I know the ms and rpm figures are there , but Im too lazy to go looking it up and I cant tell at a glance.
32 psi at 4300 rpm or whatever it is.Is that too much or what you targeted for and then it tails off a bit later, or do you hope to be able to hold that to redline eventually?

You could allways heh fit a mbc that will open the wastegate at 30 if not going to change the map right now and see how that works for you.


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

3TT3 said:


> Disclaimer,everything below could well be bs
> 
> I can barely read my own logs, let alone anyone elses  but
> Did you reset the tb?
> ...


 Where'd you get 32 psi from? don't forget the sensor is maxed out.

I would think that the wg is set too tight but then why the lag? Or am I just kidding myself with how fast I think this thing is suppost to come on boost and I have over tightened the wg?

The knock sensor values are considerably lower then press rebuild and egts are low so I don't think temps are too warm


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## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

It may be confusion on the columns,like I say they blend together.
Didnt you mention you saw around 30 psi at 4500 rpm also?.
You have 2 columns J and K in mbar 
Theyre the only pressure figures I see on the sheet.
I know the conventional logs show a peak of of around 2580 mbar sensor limit cos they include the atmospheric pressure,ie even at rest its gonna show 987 ,992 1013.2 or whatever depending on local pressure.
Your mbar figures seemed to be gauge corrected,not absolute
ie 2827.5 rpm boost requested = 20.100045 ,boost actual = 4.8343 .I know these arent mbar but that was the column heading so I moved the decimal place.
Mine explodes(with surge) up to 28/29 psi on gauge(43/44 absolute) at around 3500 rpm and since you said 30 psi was showing at 4500 seemed like the right figures(ie maxing out around 30-32 psi).

So have I got the right columns? but theyre actually not only converted to gauge pressure and not absolute, but are also converted to psi?
Either way  the injector duty cycle? or mbc to boost cap manually (like £10) easy enough to experiment with.
There is some timing pulling going on from the last column so if its too lean(and I think a little lean is good for max torque area and inj duty cycle is ok maybe it is time to call in mr wmi  all you need to do is set it for 20 psi(if thats what it is ) boost start or the maf g/s thing and see what happens ?


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Ok so I think I've sorted the overboost - too much preload on the actuator arm. I initally set the actuator so it just slid over pin on the flapper arm and then preloaded 3 full turns. Iv now lengthened the rod so it just slids onto the pin with no preload.

The result from a quick road test show it peaks and holds 24psi. Shit the bed its quick!!!! Will get the logging done soon so I can check afr, timing etc but I'm very chuffed that I'm going in the right direction.

Looking forward to getting a proper map on the car which I assume can be tuned to bring the boost on sooner and make more use of the lower temps


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## IPG3.6 (Sep 5, 2015)

intott said:


> 3TT3 said:
> 
> 
> > Where'd you get 32 psi from? don't forget the sensor is maxed out.


Is there a way to upgrade the MAP sensor to be able to read higher?

Good work though mate. Very excited for you!!!


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

I think you can use a map sensor from one of vw pd diesel engines but it would need to be mapped to account for the pressure relative to the 0-5v signal. I may be mistaken however.

PS how's your build coming on?


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## IPG3.6 (Sep 5, 2015)

intott said:


> I think you can use a map sensor from one of vw pd diesel engines but it would need to be mapped to account for the pressure relative to the 0-5v signal. I may be mistaken however.
> 
> PS how's your build coming on?


Right. I think I found the right one and the information re: mapping. It's be good to be able to have the boost gauge in the colormfa read as high as 30psi.

http://www.fixmyvw.com/genuine-vw-4-bar-map-sensor-upgrade-with-rubber-grommet-genuine-vw/

The current state of affairs


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## Beunhaas (May 14, 2014)

You should have some preload at least. Else the wastegate flap will rattle and induce accelarated wear on the flap and seat. Isnt there an table somewhere on the garrett site? I know Borg Warner has a table for canister strenght, desired boost range and how much turns preload are recommended


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Progressive controller mounted. Just waiting on a few connectors arrive so I can make a loom up as it'll be nice to be able to unplug each unit separately


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Beunhaas said:


> You should have some preload at least. Else the wastegate flap will rattle and induce accelarated wear on the flap and seat. Isnt there an table somewhere on the garrett site? I know Borg Warner has a table for canister strenght, desired boost range and how much turns preload are recommended


I do have some preload as the flapper was held firm. 
Boost rose and held at 24psi so it is regulating up top at least. I didn't have my laptop with me so chose to back out early doors. 
A few bits of interior trim left to go back in then I'm out on the road for some pulls


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## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

Nice spot..Im still playing around with inj start and full on points and no mine doesnt hold 24 psi all the way


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

After a successful MOT, it was time to take the car for some proper runs and get some good logs. The car ran great, no problems at all with a total of 52miles since the rebuild.

MAF is showing a max of 248g/s so 310hp give or take   

Plan now is to get the WMI setup (finished the wiring today) to get the IAT temps down, i can hopefully then add some more timing which should help spool the turbo up a bit faster. The WMI should then bring the fuel corrections down (graphs 2/3) as its currently adding 15% at 4.2K where it starts going a bit lean. 
Here is a 3rd gear pull from 2k to 6.7k WOT.

I'm getting 3deg timing correction on cylinder 2 from 5k on and zero on the other cylinders. EGTs are maxing at 860deg C. Boost spikes to 25psi on the gauge.











































View attachment rebuild bt 2.xlsx


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## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

v impressive :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :lol:

Its only looking back thru the thread,that I see the amount of work .Mine has absolutely nothing done post exhaust ports!
If its usefull:
my ignition timing is approximately the same as yours now WITH wi on .6-7 degrees retard above 6000 with it off.
iat temps similar with wi injection on .20 degrees higher with it off
nb..I dont know how the effect of spraying "cooling stuff" on/near the iat sensor skews the figures , but my injection point is the same as yours.
endgame/hi rpm boost .. about 17-19 psi wi on or off.
gm/s say 210 max approx but held like over the last 1000 rpm , yours look more like 245 averaged not 240?
lambda cant really say as I corrupted a log  but last time I checked it was going to <11:1 for cooling no wi,and I dont know what effect the alcohol n water has yet in that regard.
egts 920-930 no wi ,about 30 less wi on.

I notice your "look at my engine" youtube thing has been deleted


----------



## Gonzalo1495 (Oct 13, 2014)

Nice job man, what intercooler are you running. Those are terrific IAT's without water injection. Although I'm assuming you guy have some cold weather over there right now?

As far as your boost requested vs actual. You seem to drop a bit once you barely hit peak boost. I think you might want to look into the wastegate spring mod so you can hold more boost up top.


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

3TT3 said:


> v impressive :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :lol:
> 
> Its only looking back thru the thread,that I see the amount of work .Mine has absolutely nothing done post exhaust ports!
> If its usefull:
> ...


Kind words 3TT3, its been a slog but a learning curve and have really enjoyed it, especially now I can use the thing and its working. I'm redoing some videos so will post it back up soon.



Gonzalo1495 said:


> Nice job man, what intercooler are you running. Those are terrific IAT's without water injection. Although I'm assuming you guy have some cold weather over there right now?
> 
> As far as your boost requested vs actual. You seem to drop a bit once you barely hit peak boost. I think you might want to look into the wastegate spring mod so you can hold more boost up top.


Cheers Bud,
This is on the stock twin SMIC  I guess this is the advantage of running the turbo at more efficient levels - let heat being chucked out. Weather wise, its was up at 12degC yesterday so positively tropical by UK standards.

Like I said, peak boost is 25psi reached at around 4200rpm and drops back with sensor range at aprox 4700rpm. I don't want to tighten or add any more tension to the actuator as I don't want it to spike any more than the current 25psi. Its already starting to run a bit lean so the ECU during the boost spike corrects by 15% - more boost would mean more % added to keep in check. I know I could add a few % of fuel with unisettings but without any tune from my stage 2 map, im happy that its coping. With WMI and a tune, i fully agree that should look into stiffer spring/add a bit more preload. 
Im also still on the stock clutch!!! lol


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## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

There is one thing:
It appears "peaky" ? .
Me I have the opposite problem,have to cap the 3k to 4k boost.
I mean it doesnt look like a lot is happening under 4k.
Np if thats the way you drive it etc ,retuning may get more action earlier or perhaps its the turbo characteristic? or maybe it isnt like that ..
Just looks a little that way.
I'm not sure what TIP you have all I know is,on mine an 80 mm one allows a spike up to 28 psi ,somewhere between 3200 and 3700+ allows the turbo to spool up to max map sensor limit (2550) earlier than normal.
Without doing anything with ignition timing or map,the turbo spins to max earlier and peaks higher and causes surge with too much boost too early.
Your map is looking for the boost,around the same time in the rev range as mine,but isnt getting it.
Mine with the standard tip restriction, standard filter n wakbox was fine  boost didnt build as fast,there was no surge.
80 mm tip it all changed..sure I gained a few bhp up top ,but got too much boost too early.

I dont know if the wi will change things much,sure you can get more ign change across the revrange with unisettings or whatever,but that isnt specific and it even says dont wi below 3000 .

The waste spring tension thing seems more reliable,unless its just turbo inertia dependent


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

3TT3 said:


> There is one thing:
> It appears "peaky" ? .
> Me I have the opposite problem,have to cap the 3k to 4k boost.
> I mean it doesnt look like a lot is happening under 4k.
> ...


Your right, not much happens before 4K, mostly, this is due to the larger size of the turbo, needing more energy to spin it up. Plus the tubular mani takes more time to fill and feed the turbo. The current map, written for a k04 wont be ideal between 2 n 4 k rpm as normally, this is when the boost would be up at 10-25odd PSI so a re tune in this RPM window should help spool the new turbo.

The TIP im running is a badger 5 cut in half with a 3" 90deg connecting to the turbo - pretty much as good as it gets if you want to retain all the TIP hose connections ect. I may try swapping over to my cone filter to see if any gains can be had there.

I don't believe there is any need to change the WG spring tension as when I very first ran the car up, the wastgate had way too much preload on and it still didn't come on song until 4k, It just overboosted. Maybe, once mapped and I can control n75, I can go with a stiffer spring in the WG.


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## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

I think I see (in my own way  ) what your hoping to do on self adjustment.
Like add in 2-3 degrees of advance across the whole rpm range,then at lower rpm range that wont cause any detonation probs hopefully but might make the exhaust gases hotter/more energy sooner = faster turbo spool up .
Then by the time youre getting some decent boost action,say 3k ye olde wi starts to come on and will allow the timing advance nps at high boost levels ?


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

3TT3 said:


> I think I see (in my own way  ) what your hoping to do on self adjustment.
> Like add in 2-3 degrees of advance across the whole rpm range,then at lower rpm range that wont cause any detonation probs hopefully but might make the exhaust gases hotter/more energy sooner = faster turbo spool up .
> Then by the time youre getting some decent boost action,say 3k ye olde wi starts to come on and will allow the timing advance nps at high boost levels ?


Yep, that's the plan mate. Add timing to make off boost accel better, then use the WMI to increase octane and cool once the boost comes in. I don't think adding timing lower down will spool the turbo faster (spool vs rpm) but rather speed up the time taken to get to boost (time vs rpm) thus giving the feeling of less lag. 
A true tune will alter the AFR curve, keeping it leaner before boost comes on (more heat at lower rpm to get the turbo spooling up) then richen up again once on boost. This would then influence spool vs rpm so achieve 25psi by 3500rpms say.


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Phoned R-tech today asking about remapping - earliest they can do is June!! Nick must sort after! 
I'm going to look into other tuners but I think I know who I want to do it 

Ive been using to car every day to get to work - 300miles covered and not a single problem.

Things to note

Solid engine mounts have increased vibrations in the cabin but I'm starting to become used to it. A few new rattles have appeared in the dash area so will be getting these sorted.

Stock dump valve isn't suited to this setup as it takes too long to close during gear changes at wot so a dv with stiffer spring is needed.

The idle is still pants, jumping around a bit. I think this is down to an iffy injector so may get them sent off for flow testing to see if that's the case.

Will be doing a compression test at the weekend as everything should be nicely bedded in now. Hopefully will see the same results as pre rebuild.


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## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

intott said:


> Phoned R-tech today asking about remapping - earliest they can do is June!! Nick must sort after!
> I'm going to look into other tuners but I think I know who I want to do it
> 
> Ive been using to car every day to get to work - 300miles covered and not a single problem.
> ...


Try Unicorn Motor Developments mate !


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## IPG3.6 (Sep 5, 2015)

i just checked out your logs and thought "why boost coming on that late..."

looks like you're leaning out a bit on boost onset too with a/f graph at around 4100 as well?

logged your IDC's???

nicely done though and good to see you've put it all together!

so the map you're using is still your old one? new hardware but old map = car running (bar the weird idle)?


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

TT Tom TT said:


> Try Unicorn Motor Developments mate !


Will do mate. Cheers


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

ianpgonzaga said:


> i just checked out your logs and thought "why boost coming on that late..."
> it's not that late for a 71r, I think after a remap it'll hit 25psi maybe 300-500rpm sooner
> 
> looks like you're leaning out a bit on boost onset too with a/f graph at around 4100 as well?
> ...


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

A usefull phone call with the Wak meister last night and I will be booking a date from the remap soon.

1bar actuator is now on order and a few bits of silicone reducer for a rs4 maf housing. 
I also may need to look into upgrading the fuel pump but not to sure whether to go inline or an upgraded in tank pump?

Fingers crossed I've done a good job on the engine rebuild


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## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

The dw in tank pump ,everyone seems to find good .Got one myself even tho its standard injectors and fp .
Wak did a test sometime back and posted on here between an inline and the dw,perhaps a rechat  .


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## IPG3.6 (Sep 5, 2015)

intott said:


> I also may need to look into upgrading the fuel pump but not to sure whether to go inline or an upgraded in tank pump?
> 
> Fingers crossed I've done a good job on the engine rebuild


I've done both!!! hahaha

I think it has an additive effect?

I'm sure your build has been thorough and will be more than adequate!!!

Can't wait to see your results!

re: MAP maxing out - have you seen the 4bar MAP sensors? Maybe this is possible to get mapped in so you can read boost pressures higher than 2 bar (what's the limit on the stock ones?)


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Swapped over to a 1bar garrett actuator - all good and only an easy hours job!

U can see the ecu reacting to the change in boost control as I can can now take it to redline with the boost levels the same as requested. I guess the n75 dc has reworked itself? Will run a few logs to find out.

Also for a sanity check did a compression test and we have 180-185 across the board


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

It doesn't rain it pours

A cracked windscreen tonight [smiley=bigcry.gif]

Also dn't think it was running quite right so after pressure testing iv found a leaking dump valve. Then, while I had it accessible, I checked the wastegate and found the arm could be moved in/out by some 5mm. It looks like the pressed in bush has come loose and so not holding the flapper concentric to the housing port. [smiley=bigcry.gif] the only way to sort this is to pull the turbo [smiley=bigcry.gif]

I think the hotter temps from the turbo working harder caused the crack in the screen. A duff DV creaming my turbo and and 90quid excess for a new see through thing :/

Think I'll clear the garage out


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## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

Hmm strange "you have now entered the twilight zone"..recent water injection .check and so on.
It wasnt the drivers side lower right was it [smiley=freak.gif]

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1520610


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Passenger lower side. Starts where the skuttle panel is


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## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

The turbo , Ive no opinion on ,except  
The windscreen thing:
I even wondered at the time mine went..is it possible the the wmi mix caused some kind of supercooling with evaporation/pooled around the lower edge of the screen and attacked the seal ? .
I dismissed the idea .
Since we both have the mix doing dual duty as windscreen wash and the crack happened within a week or two..you see my concern.
Probably just paranoia [smiley=vulcan.gif]


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Haha, I know what you mean but I haven't used my washers in weeks.

It may be down to me removing the skuttle trim but that was 2 days ago.


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

The suspect wastegate.






Ready to go back on now but a right ballache.

Ps v band clamps would have saved many many hours of dealing with stripped bolts. [smiley=bomb.gif]


----------



## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

intott said:


> The suspect wastegate.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So excited to see more progress on the car even though sadly it's went backwards a little, what's your ETA of being all done and dyno figures and boost plots mate ?


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Well iv come up to 450miles since the rebuild so all is bedded in now. This shakedown period has highlighted the weekpoints which iv now sorted

List of things to change after the call with wak:

1bar actuator - done
Rs4 maf housing - got 
Silicone couplers for bigger maf - nope.

Going to build a custom TIP for the new maf setup so not much needed before the map. Timescales are all down to funds but I'm hoping to get it done in May

Considering is currently (well last monday) pushing around 330bhp based on maf values I think it's going to be a beast when done!!!!


----------



## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

intott said:


> Well iv come up to 450miles since the rebuild so all is bedded in now. This shakedown period has highlighted the weekpoints which iv now sorted
> 
> List of things to change after the call with wak:
> 
> ...


Sweet! Same here, me and Beun are almost done too I believe. Probably all of us done around mid-May I hope or end of May 8).

EDIT: Have you done anything to your exhaust valves I.E. Swapped them for Supertech Inconel or Ferrea?


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Placed an order direct through ecs tuning and they arrived after 2 days.



Supertech inconel exhaust valves. These are the none sodium filled versions


----------



## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

intott said:


> Placed an order direct through ecs tuning and they arrived after 2 days.
> 
> 
> 
> Supertech inconel exhaust valves. These are the none sodium filled versions


Ahhhh, I'm having a bit of a dilemma myself. I know that these are around 300 pounds delivered, I've phoned around tuning companies, Jabba, Unicorn and R-tech and they've all said they have built engines up to 600hp with stock heads with no ill-results but they do sometimes use SuperTech inconel for the exhaust valves if customers want extra piece of mind...

Only problem is it means more waiting about whilst my head's off right now and a possible loss of 300 pounds which may not be needed. I suppose the only person I'll have to blame when my engine grenades is myself when a valve drops but I'm hoping to keep my EGT's below the boiling point of sodium 880oC so that my exhaust valves hold up [smiley=bomb.gif]...


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## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

If its of any interest ,my egts hit 900+ with wi on , without it I was getting like 940 registering and egt timing pull( I think).
The egt sensor is in the turbo so theory says actual egts at the exhaust port could be 5-10 degrees higher .
Im on standard turbo etc.


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

intott said:


> Started the valve lapping today. I've only done 2 lol. Took some pictures of how I went. Not done this before but I think this is how it's done. The Bentley manual doesn't state any tollerences for valve play but they all seem pretty even.
> 
> Started with this
> 
> ...


----------



## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

intott said:


> intott said:
> 
> 
> > Started the valve lapping today. I've only done 2 lol. Took some pictures of how I went. Not done this before but I think this is how it's done. The Bentley manual doesn't state any tollerences for valve play but they all seem pretty even.
> ...


Very true intott, if I'm not using uprated exhaust valves I'll need to make sure that everything is ship-shaped and A1, get the guides done etc and as you say make sure a good job is done and that there's no pitting around the edges and if there is and they need to be replaced any way then as you say it would be an argument for me getting inconel any way. Might as well replace them with the stronger option rather than OEM.

Thanks for the info about your EGT's 3TT3, it does help a great deal actually, you need to get your EGT's in check though 3TT3 or you will damage something. You don't want EGT's going over about 880 as that's the boiling point of Sodium.


----------



## IPG3.6 (Sep 5, 2015)

some ups and downs but looks like you're in for some higher G forces very soon! Can't wait!!!


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## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

ianpgonzaga said:


> some ups and downs but looks like you're in for some higher G forces very soon! Can't wait!!!


Agreed :mrgreen:!


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Thanks for the positivity chaps!!!

New fasteners and seals ordered today so should have it back up n running for Monday.


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Manifold and turbo now back on. 
A quick blast this evening nd all is well again. No leaks from any banjo fittings which is great news. I'm in desperate need for some good heat shielding for this manifold so have will have to get the fabrication butt in gear. Three 3rd gear pulls to redline and look at the colour (It was clean bright metal) already!


----------



## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

intott said:


> Manifold and turbo now back on.
> A quick blast this evening nd all is well again. No leaks from any banjo fittings which is great news. I'm in desperate need for some good heat shielding for this manifold so have will have to get the fabrication butt in gear. Three 3rd gear pulls to redline and look at the colour (It was clean bright metal) already!


To what end?
not being funny btw , just want to know.
Colour , I dont know but is it like wrapping the manifold . If it is you wont have to worry about colour.

1. Is the shielding to prevent heat transfer to the TOP
2.To prevent thermal shock/surface to interior temps of cooler air hitting the welds

if 2 could the insulation increase interior temps too much?
If 1. could shielding the TOP or at least isolating it (something like the standard setup) help in the possible extreme manifold temp variation. Surface to interior if thats a worry.


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

3TT3 said:


> To what end?
> not being funny btw , just want to know.
> Colour , I dont know but is it like wrapping the manifold . If it is you wont have to worry about colour.
> 
> ...


The colour I'm not worried on, just what stainless does when it gets hot.

I'm worried about radiated heat mostly, the silicon charge pipe coupler is only 3/4" from the manifold runner. Convected heat to the top is also high. I can barely touch the strut brace after a few miles drive.


----------



## Gonzalo1495 (Oct 13, 2014)

intott said:


> Manifold and turbo now back on.
> A quick blast this evening nd all is well again. No leaks from any banjo fittings which is great news. I'm in desperate need for some good heat shielding for this manifold so have will have to get the fabrication butt in gear. Three 3rd gear pulls to redline and look at the colour (It was clean bright metal) already!


Nice to see someone else with the MK2 coilpack wiring cover :wink:


----------



## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

Maybe manifold wrapping is your best bet ?.
Itll be interesting to see what you do .
I see the metal air pipes are flaking a bit , is that the heat you think?
On the strut bar: even on my umble standard setup,the bar is too hot to touch after a few runs . Not ow my finger got burned, but leave your hand on it and its too hot to hold .


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Gonzalo1495 said:


> Nice to see someone else with the MK2 coilpack wiring cover :wink:


For the price it would be rude not to. Much better than the oem cover.



3TT3 said:


> Maybe manifold wrapping is your best bet ?.
> Itll be interesting to see what you do .
> I see the metal air pipes are flaking a bit , is that the heat you think?
> On the strut bar: even on my umble standard setup,the bar is too hot to touch after a few runs . Not ow my finger got burned, but leave your hand on it and its too hot to hold .


I was thinking manifold wrap but there are way too many examples of cracked manifolds which have been wrapped. 
The paint chips on the evap and coolant pipe are from me bashing it when removing the manfiold. I plan on rerouting those two pipes over the inlet mani.


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Right graph time  340hp anyone :lol:

I'm running close to the maf limit. No timing corrections at redline either :evil: etgs are nice and low and iat are 10deg above ambient. Not even turned the wmi on yet 

Fuel correction is up at 20% but this is expected as it's holding 25psi now.

Before and after (ko4 to gt2871r) power and torque










Boost before and after (ko4 and gt2871r)


----------



## Beunhaas (May 14, 2014)

Almost exactly the same numbers i made on the previous turbo. Amazing feel isnt it, the turbo keeps pushing instead of the original turbo that drops down after 5k rpm.

I assume its still going for map tweaks to push it harder?

Btw, thank god finally somebody that can make clean graphs that are readable and usefull [smiley=cheers.gif]


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Beunhaas said:


> Almost exactly the same numbers i made on the previous turbo. Amazing feel isnt it, the turbo keeps pushing instead of the original turbo that drops down after 5k rpm.
> 
> I assume its still going for map tweaks to push it harder?
> 
> Btw, thank god finally somebody that can make clean graphs that are readable and usefull [smiley=cheers.gif]


It's lovely. 4k on is where it comes alive.

Yes I'm still going to get it mapped - funds are being put together now. I see it as the icing on the cake tbh, a bit more torque below 3.5k would be ideal and then what ever can be gained from the map and addition of wmi and I'll be a happy man.

Currently on the lookout for a new dump valve. I feel a change from oem is worth investing in because atm it sounds like a magpie is stuck under the bonnet - no dv and it just flutters like crazy. [smiley=bomb.gif]


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## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

[smiley=thumbsup.gif] [smiley=mexicanwave.gif]


----------



## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

Sweet 'semi results' and decent spool too I assume from the boost plots. Agreed with beun for the nice easy to read graphs 8)


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## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

I think you mentioned something about not liking the open cone sound and youre gonna keep standard Maf?
I use this as a kind of guide
http://euroturbo.net/product-info/vw-1- ... ngineinfo/

If you take it to its limits ,stock airfilter could be good for 325-<350
Stock airbox perhaps up to 350-<370?
stock Maf <350 ?

open cone np for 400 + (hang your idols), it seems and delta 4 I think it was says he prefers the open cone sound anyway.

I ,quite recently . have used a wakked airbox base, heavy on the holes at the wheelarch end and airbox top from an s3, to sort of stealth the s2000 cone look.
Before I had a solid airbox base (unmodded) and it was getting hi iats, I think because most of the air was coming from the top where the cone was exposed and the turbo side of the air filter box.

The sound now is actually much less coney than it was and I think is almost "normal" and temps are a lot better Wak has dialled out the 27-28 psi to 23 ish (gauge reading ) and the surge I was getting as low as 2700 rpm.(ie my problem was too much boost too soon with the big tip and cone).
I also flowed out the inlet manifold to match the gasket and cyl head ports up (which may have just made my early spooling problem worse sad 

The physical setup ^ or some variation on that might be good for the sound and 340-360 or whatever it is  , you lucky sod  and might promote faster spooling.
maybe.


----------



## IPG3.6 (Sep 5, 2015)

intott said:


> Right graph time  340hp anyone :lol:
> 
> I'm running close to the maf limit. No timing corrections at redline either :evil: etgs are nice and low and iat are 10deg above ambient. Not even turned the wmi on yet
> 
> ...


...and that's on a conservative map,isn't it???


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

TT Tom TT said:


> Sweet 'semi results' and decent spool too I assume from the boost plots. Agreed with beun for the nice easy to read graphs 8)


Yep were nearly there.

The graphs only take a few minutes now I've got the knack for it. 



3TT3 said:


> I think you mentioned something about not liking the open cone sound and youre gonna keep standard Maf?
> I use this as a kind of guide
> http://euroturbo.net/product-info/vw-1- ... ngineinfo/
> 
> ...


No I'll be changing to an rs4 maf housing so will have to go with an open cone filter. On the stock turbo, the Darth Vader intake noise was too irritating to deal with but now it is absolutely fine. I think the 3" compressor intake helps lower the noise.



ianpgonzaga said:


> ...and that's on a conservative map,isn't it???


This is the original Wak remap so a stage 2 tune effectively. I wouldn't say it was conservative but its not pushing anything yet.


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## IPG3.6 (Sep 5, 2015)

Eagerly await your results.... frikkin hell... please stay safe! LOL

fire extinguisher, seat belts and airbags all good!!?


----------



## Gonzalo1495 (Oct 13, 2014)

ianpgonzaga said:


> Eagerly await your results.... frikkin hell... please stay safe! LOL
> 
> fire extinguisher, seat belts and airbags all good!!?


Who needs airbags?! lol...

Nice results Intott. Car seems healthy by the data, and the tune seems spot on. I bet you'll be running ambient IAT's once you get the WI sorted. Cheers


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

No major updates but have just put a new set of disks on and fab'd up a new intake pipe.

Relocated the ports to tidy up the nest of hoses and will make life easier when switching to a larger maf.

Trial fit with 3.5" maf (still waiting for a 3"-3.25" coupler). The brushed stainless should look nice with the trackslag charge pipe


----------



## Beunhaas (May 14, 2014)

Thats some nice diy fabrication mate.


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Hit a milestone this week - 1000miles since the rebuild. Also did my first long run of 170miles in one hit and it runs great. Even got 36.5mpg over the 340mile round trip 8). With this, I'm now starting to trust the engine and feel comfortable to make the pilgrimage to see Wak.

A pic and video of the engine bay for those interested. I'm liking the stainless intake pipe and the latest addition of a mbc to cap the boost at 25psi.


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## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

I like the concertina wi covering,I used spare fuel line rubber on mine(split along its length).
Not sure about the long term viability of the snow perf sticker ,where it is .I like you felt I had to put mine somewhere as well  .
One good thing about the washer bottle resevoir is there wont be any nasty bacteria swimming in the mix! and making eggy smells.
I took my mbc off cos it was limiting the 4-5k boost..wak should be able to dial in a cap(I expect  )


----------



## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

3TT3 said:


> I like the concertina wi covering,I used spare fuel line rubber on mine(split along its length).
> Not sure about the long term viability of the snow perf sticker ,where it is .I like you felt I had to put mine somewhere as well  .
> One good thing about the washer bottle resevoir is there wont be any nasty bacteria swimming in the mix! and making eggy smells.
> I took my mbc off cos it was limiting the 4-5k boost..wak should be able to dial in a cap(I expect  )


It'll only get warm after you shut the engine off and the IM heat-soaks some of the heads temp, I don't even have WMI yet and my inlet manifold doesn't seem to get past luke-warm whilst driving.


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## 1781cc (Jan 25, 2015)

interesting reading this thread today, its a lovely car, really like that fab'd up TIP


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## Mondo (Feb 20, 2009)

Nice. 

If you're worried about the radiated heat of the charge pipe you could give Zircotec a go. Did my charge pipe, exhaust manifold and cam cover (just for jolly laughs). Not cheap, but no more burnt hands brushing the CP after a run.

ECS Tuning (and I'm sure locals too) do new OEM silver heat shield wrap for the coil pack wiring. I preferred that for the look and heat protection, but the red plastic looks good too.



340bhp. 10 more than me.  And Wak's not waved his magic wand yet either!  [smiley=thumbsup.gif]


----------



## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

Mondo said:


> Nice.
> 
> If you're worried about the radiated heat of the charge pipe you could give Zircotec a go. Did my charge pipe, exhaust manifold and cam cover (just for jolly laughs). Not cheap, but no more burnt hands brushing the CP after a run.
> 
> ...


I would think Zircotec coating the charge pipe would cause power loss.


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

The cover for the clear wmi line is wire conduit £1.79 delivered from eBay!!! How do they do it???

The sticker, yea that was just playing really. It doesn't look too bad imo but no one knows what it actually is unless they know specifics lol

On the heat shielding, I'm still to make-up a cover for the manifold, I have the metal bit no gas for the welder......once I get this sorted, a few more tweeks and mods and I'll be ready for the remap. 340 is just from the maf so I'm not technically there yet but I'm on the right lines. Thanks for taking the time to read. It takes a while to type this all up on a phone 

Have also been playing with engine mounts. After the long drive I found all the rattles and harshness too much to live with. 60shore polyurethane is too hard for daily use - a 2500 and 3000rpm 3rd to 6th gear rattle nearly killed me. So tonight I changed over to another set but this time I filled both mounts with 30a shore RTV which I mixed up and left to set for 24 hours. 
Again I have no idea how long they will last but man alive, I have my refined car back. Or that's how it feels now anyway, I can't believe what difference halving the hardness of rubber has made!!! The loudest thing now is intake noise........

Forget that is pink (looked red on the advert) [smiley=bomb.gif]



Would anyone know of a supplier of oem stretch bolts btw? I have a feeling going to the dealership will result in an unnecessarily light wallet....


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## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

Hey its mr pink smiley face  No Idea on the bolts but I have had to move/ retighten mine a couple of times using a little more than the recommended torque for the stretch factor .


----------



## Beunhaas (May 14, 2014)

If im correct these are the partnumbers and prices i paid for mine

N 90596906 Engine side mount to chassis €5.70
N 10209605 Engine side mount to engine adapter €3.25
N 90596906 Gearbox side mount to chassis
N 10209605 Gearbox side mount to gearbox adapter

That would be a total of €35.8 just for a pair of bolts :lol: 
All bolts are needed twice


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Beunhaas said:


> If im correct these are the partnumbers and prices i paid for mine
> 
> N 90596906 Engine side mount to chassis €5.70
> N 10209605 Engine side mount to engine adapter €3.25
> ...


That's perfect thanks. Confirmed what I found online but finding it hard to source the latter part number.


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## IPG3.6 (Sep 5, 2015)

I have just seen this post!!! How exciting!!!

So is that 340 at the wheels or crank?



intott said:


> Right graph time  340hp anyone :lol:
> 
> I'm running close to the maf limit. No timing corrections at redline either :evil: etgs are nice and low and iat are 10deg above ambient. Not even turned the wmi on yet
> 
> ...


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

This figure is just based on maf values and a small calculation for the torque so not the real thing but will be having it dyno'd after the mapping. 
It seems that we have a case of "this dyno reads low" everywhere in the UK so in on the lookout for an optimistic dyno  only messing


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

It seems my car no longer likes it's oem dv. I'm on my 2rd in 2 months :? 
Decided to open um up and it looks like the diaphragm is catching on the edge of the side port. The last photo shows a clear mark where it's rubbed. The first one I picked up on early so a much smaller hole.
Dv1 


Dv2



I'm not paying 130quid for a new forge dv so I'm on a cheep eBay valve which iv worked over a bit so its staying for the time being.


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## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

Hi.its me (got to comment on everything  )
No pics, but I had my original late 2002 710N dv out 2 days ago.I did a lot of manual testing.
it definitely edges over to that side and "sags" that side with thumb seal (gradually loosened)letting the air out.
It doesnt seem to be punctured . It felt like offset spring pressure.
My "fix" for now was to tighten up the vacuum/clip seal at the top cos originally I wasnt too worried as its only vacuum itll seal itself.
I think, maybe, the original tightness wasnt great .Itd vacuum seal ok,but not until the first -1Hg or whatever was applied.
Seems better now.
Placebo strikes again maybe  but since the diaphram doesnt actually leak/let it seal up with the thumb on, Ive no excuse to buy a new one! [smiley=bigcry.gif] :lol:


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Finally found some heat sleeve for the charge pipe. Rally Design £11.99


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## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

intott said:


> Finally found some heat sleeve for the charge pipe. Rally Design £11.99


  Why? hotter charge temps due to an inability to radiate heat to surrounding airflow?

P.S. Your engine bay looks damn fine.


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

TT Tom TT said:


> Why? hotter charge temps due to an inability to radiate heat to surrounding airflow?
> 
> P.S. Your engine bay looks damn fine.


There is a glowing red exhaust manifold about 1 inch away from the pipe which will add more heat to the charge air. 
I doubt even 2 or 3 degrees of air temp is lost by the time the air reaches the IC anyway as it's flowing pretty rapid.

Cheers, if spent quite a lot of time sorting it out. Looking forward to getting rid of the MBC to reduce the rats nest of hoses.


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## Beunhaas (May 14, 2014)

I hope you like math tom so hold on 

272 gram/second (340 hp)
devided by molar mass (272/29) is 9.39 mol/second

for simplicity use ideal gas relation
p*v=n*r*t
For t assume temperature t out of turbo is 100 deg celcius is 373 Kelvin
For r we take gas constant of 8.314
for n we calculated 9.39 mol/second
for p we take the turbo pressure of 25 psi is 1.72 bar + 1 bar atmospheric so 2.72 bar is 272000 Pascals
so we calculate flow v as 0.107 m^3 per second

Assume chargepipe is 2.5 inch so area is 0.003 m^2
So the velocity in the charge pipe is flow v divided by area is 34.25 m/s

Assume chargepipe lenght is 0.5 m
So the time of the air in the chargepipe is 0.5/34.25 is 0.015 seconds.

I would love to explain some heat transfer also but you can probably guess that a residence time of 0.015 seconds won't affect the charge temp at all.

And yes i do like numbers and if i remember correctly Intott also [smiley=book2.gif]


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## Madmax199 (Jun 14, 2015)

^^^ Cliffnotes, won't make a difference in real life! Air off the turbo is basically lava until reaching the heat exchanger. It's also not staying long enough in the localized radiating area, and the air flow inside the pipe is not laminar (very turbulent at that point so the pipe temperature isn't doing its best at transferring heat in.

If there is an effect it's so minuscule to post IC IAT that this mod is usually classified under the negligible column. It's more of dress up and feel good thing!


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

I was a little misleading with the above, the whole point in the heat sleeve was to protect the silicone hose. It just came in a meter length and iv not got round to fitting the piece to the silicone coupler. :mrgreen:

Like i said, this is purely a heat management item in no way have I considered any performance changes. As said, it's not going to do fa on the inside.


----------



## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

Madmax199 said:


> ^^^ Cliffnotes, won't make a difference in real life! Air off the turbo is basically lava until reaching the heat exchanger. It's also not staying long enough in the localized radiating area, and the air flow inside the pipe is not laminar (very turbulent at that point so the pipe temperature isn't doing its best at transferring heat in.
> 
> *If there is an effect it's so minuscule to post IC IAT that this mod is usually classified under the negligible column. It's more of dress up and feel good thing!*


Would you also put a diverter valve relocation in this category? I notice intott has one of these too. I keep contemplating doing it as it makes a lot of sense to recycle post-IC air rather than scorching 200oC charge air. I guess it wouldn't do too much for power as it only gets diverted when OFF the power but I guess it 'may' improve 'response' slightly. Unsure as to how significant a constituent the diverted air is when compared with the mass of airflow coming through the intake.


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

TT Tom TT said:


> Madmax199 said:
> 
> 
> > ^^^ Cliffnotes, won't make a difference in real life! Air off the turbo is basically lava until reaching the heat exchanger. It's also not staying long enough in the localized radiating area, and the air flow inside the pipe is not laminar (very turbulent at that point so the pipe temperature isn't doing its best at transferring heat in.
> ...


viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1099609&hilit=+Relocate


----------



## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

intott said:


> TT Tom TT said:
> 
> 
> > Madmax199 said:
> ...


 [smiley=cheers.gif]


----------



## Madmax199 (Jun 14, 2015)

Thomas, a cold side relocation is just more efficient. Its benefits are not necessarily power but it helps have a more efficient compressor bypass setup. Being on the cold side is, first and foremost, way less taxing on the valve itself (so it improves longevity). As you mentioned, you are also recirculating air that has gone through the heat exchange. Lastly but not least, you have the DV closer to the throttle body (12" downstream of the throttle plate is the ideal), so you get the best response from a DV located in that vicinity.


----------



## SC0TTRS (Oct 23, 2016)

intott said:


> Would anyone know of a supplier of oem stretch bolts btw? I have a feeling going to the dealership will result in an unnecessarily light wallet....


Hey Intott, I've had success from: http://www.seatpartsshop.co.uk/

Great thread btw 8)


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

SC0TTRS said:


> intott said:
> 
> 
> > Would anyone know of a supplier of oem stretch bolts btw? I have a feeling going to the dealership will result in an unnecessarily light wallet....
> ...


Spot on Dude thank you!


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Great news!!!!!!! After a 340 mile round trip and 7 hours of logging/map tweaking, we have a smooth running and fast TT 

*First of all i have got to say a big thank you to Wak - a gentleman and all round top bloke.* [smiley=cheers.gif]

360hp aprox @ 27psi tapering to 22psi.

I could have perhaps gone a little higher but my mechanical ass sphincter would tighten up and wouldn't let me rev beyond 6600ish rpm. Could have gone to 7200.

A few issues identified

1) The s4 4.2v8 maf housing I used didn't have the flow straightener upstream of the sensor so we seemed to be picking some of this turbulant flow on the maf readings. BUY THE TURBO RS4 HOUSING as this has the flow straightener.

2) I need a bigger wmi nozzle - my tiny snowperformance #2 nozzle didn't allow us to run great timing advance so I'm still in the low double digits at redline. I think a #4 nozzle is on the cards so will hopefully see about 15 to 18 degrees at top end and no corrections.

Can someone find me a smug face 8)


----------



## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

Grrats!
maybe nozzle 3 is the one? (with the mix n all).
https://www.snowperformance.net/category-s/191.htm
Did you try psi pump control instead of Maf?

Word is you need to bring your own coffee . not cos Wak wont supply it, but because you wanna be alive the next day :lol:


----------



## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

It's about damn time we got those results ... Glad you are happy - strong numbers!

Do you have a graph? You should try and unclench the old sphincter. I rev out to 7.5K but then again I'm an idiot :lol:...


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

TT Tom TT said:


> It's about damn time we got those results ... Glad you are happy - strong numbers!
> 
> Do you have a graph? You should try and unclench the old sphincter. I rev out to 7.5K but then again I'm an idiot :lol:...


So I crossed the line before you then 

I'll post some graphs up in the next few days. I'll be doing a before and after hardware changes so I'm hoping it'll only gain more and then some at 7.2krpm



3TT3 said:


> Grrats!
> maybe nozzle 3 is the one? (with the mix n all).
> https://www.snowperformance.net/category-s/191.htm
> Did you try psi pump control instead of Maf?
> ...


I probly will get the 3 and 4 because I might try running the small nozzle pre TB which I hope will stop iat rising.

Coffee is a must - I left the house at 7am and returned home at half 10 at night. Drive 90% of the whole time. Great call from Wak by offering fluids during the mapping though..


----------



## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

You did indeed, but the glory isn't all yours, beun beat both of us ...

Looking forward to the graphs and seeing what power unfolds in the future too!


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

So got round to taking some logs this morning - the car likes winter and 8deg outside air temps . 
I fitted a rather sexy flow straightener for the maf sensor (I have a spare if anyone is interested) and now we are seeing a bit more what I expected - 392hp based on maf flow rate. This is with no timing corrections too :twisted:














View attachment 6


----------



## chisharpe (May 27, 2017)

Niccccceeeee


----------



## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

The triumvirate thread is coming soon... Hopefully we will have 400 each by it's conclusion 8)...


----------



## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

TT Tom TT said:


> The triumvirate thread is coming soon... Hopefully we will have 400 each by it's conclusion 8)...


but who will end up as Caesar :lol:

Nice figures into TT ,what did you get the torque from..vcds readout or formula ?


----------



## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

3TT3 said:


> TT Tom TT said:
> 
> 
> > The triumvirate thread is coming soon... Hopefully we will have 400 each by it's conclusion 8)...
> ...


Beunhaas :lol:


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

chisharpe said:


> Niccccceeeee





3TT3 said:


> TT Tom TT said:
> 
> 
> > The triumvirate thread is coming soon... Hopefully we will have 400 each by it's conclusion 8)...
> ...


 [smiley=deal2.gif] 
Calc from HP..... it forgot it can be logged.



TT Tom TT said:


> 3TT3 said:
> 
> 
> > TT Tom TT said:
> ...


Beunhaas knows what he is doing though :mrgreen:


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Thoughts? Oem small port runners with a larger plenum. A bit of a hasty buy but I think I should see some gains. It's designed for a vr6 throttle body but we can soon rectify that.


----------



## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

This is genius, the stock runner design isn't _THAT_ bad, it's more the small plenum volume that's such a choke for high rpm hp so this seems a cheap and reasonable compromise - what's the story behind this I.E. did you make it yourself, where did you buy it from etc?

Looks like a stroke of obvious genius that I and maybe others have never considered.


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Picked this up for £100 on eBay. This was my plan for the manifold all along so its handy someone was selling. Before fitting I may chop the plenum off so I can smooth and polish the inside where the radius is on each runner.


----------



## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

intott said:


> Picked this up for £100 on eBay. This was my plan for the manifold all along so its handy someone was selling. Before fitting I may chop the plenum off so I can smooth and polish the inside where the radius is on each runner.


Sweet as... Looking forward to seeing if it increases the g/sec on the MAF at the high-end... What's it actually from or did someone make it custom? Looks like an OEM piece minus the throttle body bit... I mean it has 4 runners but I can't think of what 4 cyl VAG engine would require such a big plenum so I'm struggling here...

PM if you don't want to give away your secrets :lol:... Or leave it to me to figure out (if I can :lol.

The lack of people posting after you finding this is surprising to me, this is one of the best finds I've seen in a long time if they're easily available from another vehicle.


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

TT Tom TT said:


> Sweet as... Looking forward to seeing if it increases the g/sec on the MAF at the high-end... What's it actually from or did someone make it custom? Looks like an OEM piece minus the throttle body bit... I mean it has 4 runners but I can't think of what 4 cyl VAG engine would require such a big plenum so I'm struggling here...
> 
> PM if you don't want to give away your secrets :lol:... Or leave it to me to figure out (if I can :lol.
> 
> The lack of people posting after you finding this is surprising to me, this is one of the best finds I've seen in a long time if they're easily available from another vehicle.


No secrets here! It is a oem 1.8t manifold with the plenum chopped and a new plenum made from ally sheet and tube bends. It's been shot blasted so the finish looks the same as cast. That's why there are no weld lines to be seen. 
The reality is, it is so cheep to buy the ally and weld it up like mine - less than £100, the expense for a sem or apr manifolds etc comes from the R & D work and castings.

For the price it is what it is


----------



## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

intott said:


> No secrets here! It is a oem 1.8t manifold with the plenum chopped and a new plenum made from ally sheet and tube bends. It's been shot blasted so the finish looks the same as cast. That's why there are no weld lines to be seen.
> The reality is, it is so cheep to buy the ally and weld it up like mine - less than £100, the expense for a sem or apr manifolds etc comes from the R & D work and castings.
> 
> For the price it is what it is


Ah, I understand now. It was the OEM appearance that was throwing me off the scent of it being custom, if this makes respectable gains I'll definitely do this at some point in the future because no one will be able to tell the difference that it's not the OEM manifold! Unless of course they're a fairly well clued up TT owner themselves, even then it's kind of easy to go unnoticed, it's about as stealth as you can get for an inlet mani' with a big plenum.


----------



## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Ok chaps, the car has been working great but I'm in the mood again for more modifications 

There are a number of areas which I'd like to improve upon but do not know which is the best way to go about it. It would be great if any of you kind folk can offer some guidance!

Before I get into details I just want to give the current state of affairs.

1) Stock cyl small port head (0.2mm skimmed) so aprox 9.1-9.2:1 CR (iv found details which states a change of 0.27cr /per 0.5mm change in head gasket thickness)
2) Stock small port inlet manifold
3) Stock pistons
4) Forged Rods
5) WMI with post TB spacer and DO3 nozzle (starts firing at 4.2k and is on full by 5k rpm - never seen IAT above 30deg on boost)
6) Stock SMICs
7) GT2871r with tubular manifold - 3 "dp with 2.75" cat back (EGTs never go above 860deg)
8) Boost builds to 18psi at 3800 - 4200rpm then rises to 27PSI by 5300k then tapers to 24psi at 6.5k
9) Ignition timing sees lows of 9deg rising to 12deg at redline with 1-3deg of correction during a 4th gear WOT pull (zero CF during 3rd gear pull)
10) MAF flow at 6500rpm always shows between 300-315g/s

So, these are the things which I would like to improve upon.

1) Boost is capped to around 18psi between 3.5 and 4.2k due to horrible surge in 4th gear or above ( using a MBC set to 25PSI shows horrible MAF readings and audible surge which causes fuelling to shit the bed). I would like to allow boost to build without being capped as the turbo is capable of hitting 30psi buy 4.4k. I basically need to lower the PR that this turbo is running to bring the compressor flow back on the map. The only way to get rid of surge is to allow the engine to flow better or reduce boost. Increasing the turbos flow rate but still maintain the same PR will move the compressor away from the surge line and onto its efficiency islands.
2) Granted I am running 25psi past 6k but timing is crappy - between 10deg and 12deg - I would like to see no less than 15degrees at any point and above 20deg past 5.5k

To sort this out I believe I can do the following but I need help/correcting as I am still learning this engine tuning business

A) Go with a large port head and intake manifold with larger plenum - I have read on Vortex that the large port heads can run around 10degrees more timing and would help with eliminating surge quite substantially (sacrificing spool I guess due to runner velocities) (frankenturbo, MadMax and Badger were involved in this discussion)
B) Keep small port head but use a larger manifold plenum (reduce surge) and DROP CR (increase timing/boost) by way of a 2mm Head Gasket (OEM is 1.22mm). BUT I am reading this affecting the quench area and so could actually increase det, negating the reason for dropping CR in the first place. Will a 0.7mm increase in gasket thickness really make this an issue?
C) Larger downpipe to allow engine to breathe better (helps with surge)
D) Change turbo to a lower flowing turbo but get sexy with the WMI system to run more boost up top to make up for the difference.

My first choice is to do B and C as I can get this done for less than £150.

A long post I know but any response would be much appreciated - even better would be advice from those who have been there and done the above.

Cheers


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## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

Option C should make a big difference, try and cram 4" in at the top part of the DP if you can manage it.

Paired with your new inlet manifold it should work well, I was told by someone who really knows their stuff that the rules are as follows regarding heads:

350-400bhp small port
400-450bhp small port ported
450bhp+ large port

based on this I don't think you'll quite get to needing the large port but the small port ported would see benefit on both yours and my car but if you can't do it yourself it's very labour intensive and thus expensive, I think it's about £500-£1100 depending on who does it and how good of a job they do.

What I would suggest with your new inlet manifold is that if it's a large port manifold with large plenum volume, get a Large port to small port phenolic spacer, it conically reduces from large port at the inlet manifold to small port at the cylinder head.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Phenolic...227367?hash=item2847426ca7:g:f2sAAOSw-itXrv1j

Hope I've helped mate, you've helped me enough times.


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## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

I dunno except on mine(irrelevant probably  ) .kinda standard : large TIP and sports cat is about it.
but 
engine mods :lol: are limited to porting the standard manifold and the head to match up as close as possible to the gasket .
A couple of mm at most.Using spray paint for fairly exact matching.
What did that do? (dunno)
My wmi is starting at 12/13 psi and maxing out at 19psi (the boost does go like 23 psi max around 4k) but by the time its into redline its going 19psi at a maximum.
I had the horrible surge thing in 3rd/4th/5th etc. The range was like 2800-3700 at the most and very bad 3000-3500 but as posted before Wak had to map it out with the n75 duty cycle..
This of course reduced the boost peak or at least moved the peak out of surge area, but for some reason(large TIP,I think) it was going to peaks of 28-29 psi around 3500.

Im not sure why you have to have boost capped to 18psi 3.5-4.2k.
Lets see mine went momentary peak of 29psi, but with a mbc on to never allow a reading above 23 psi there was no surge .
Then again on mine all the "bad action " was gone by 3750 and it seems happy enough at 23/24 3.8k-4.2k.
Probably something to do with the turbo characteristics bigger wheel starting to spin fast n engine not flowing enough to let it do so (or some such).
Maybe a chat wi Wak again?

Prior to wmi wot egts were going up to 940 ish and timing was getting pulled above 6000.Im not sure what Wak had it set at ,like 14 or 15 I think but 6 or 7 was getting pulled off.so ended up with under 10 a lot of the time  .
After wmi I persuaded him to add on a couple of degrees.. which was the most he was willing to go for safety .In case Id run with an empty bottle or whatever the engine wouldnt blow up , just complain a lot .

So about 17-18btdc no pulling with wmi (60/40 water alcohol) .
Nice to have the water bottle as the resevoir like your setup .The timing was only advanced above 6000 I think and egts below 900 now or at least last time I checked.
All this would be on only 18.3 to 19.2 psi /nearly allways 18.6 psi at redline n beyond.

I put on those "uprated" smic's, partially because one of my originals had been bent a bit in some previous accident.
I dont think they did any good and have read the standard ones could be a bottle neck above 280?

Beunhass is the only one Ive seen, recently anyway with a cr reducing gasket,but that by its nature will reduce your low down performance/pickup a little? .I think Tom did buy a large port head at one stage,but I dont know what happened with it.


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

TT Tom TT said:


> Option C should make a big difference, try and cram 4" in at the top part of the DP if you can manage it.
> 
> Paired with your new inlet manifold it should work well, I was told by someone who really knows their stuff that the rules are as follows regarding heads:
> 
> ...


Yes, I think option C is a given.

That's the thing, I'm currently around the 400bhp mark so going large port which allows more timing would hopefully bring things up to the 450 mark.

I hate the idea of going large port mani to small part head. Flow separation at the transition from large to small would result in a flow area smaller then the small port I guess.....how much smaller i don't know....

Thanks for the input Tom



3TT3 said:


> Im not sure why you have to have boost capped to 18psi 3.5-4.2k.
> Lets see mine went momentary peak of 29psi, but with a mbc on to never allow a reading above 23 psi there was no surge .
> Then again on mine all the "bad action " was gone by 3750 and it seems happy enough at 23/24 3.8k-4.2k.
> Probably something to do with the turbo characteristics bigger wheel starting to spin fast n engine not flowing enough to let it do so (or some such).
> ...


Thanks 3tt3. Reason why is a gt2871 flows more air for the same pressure. 18psi on my turbo is flowing much more air than a ko4 at 18psi. My engine just won't swallow that much air at that low rpm range.
I didn't realise beunhass had dropped his CR. This is interesting. 
I accept a lower cr will loose power with all else equal but will the additional timing that can be run make up for the difference lost?


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## Beunhaas (May 14, 2014)

Nice thinking there mate, i like those technical discussions.

First the surge, there are a few options to fix this and you don't have to open your engine for that. Since you are still running stock smic i would go to a FMIC but a tube and Fin core. Its Maybe a little less efficiënt but reduces pressuredrop. (Little off topic but im going to buy a new FMIC, same size but tube and Fin to see whats the trade off between flow and iat). And this ofcourse in combination with all 2.5" piping from turbo to throttlebody. Get some return on investment from the TIG welder  
Cams make the engine flow better but going to extreme you basically shift up the powerband, engine flows already more at higher rpm so surge will probably be completely gone. But you early turbo spool will also be affected. Again if i find an NA 1.8 intake cam for cheap i will try this also.
Making a 4" expansion downpipe will increase pressure ratio over turbine even more so not what you want. So personality i would scrap option c.

Second timing, this is basically fuel quality, iat or CR (indirectly some sort of iat due to adiabatic compression). I did indeed lower the compression to 8.5:1 with a thicker headgasket. I don't notice any difference in response, and comparing spool is comparing apples with mango's as i changed turbo.
You have to open the engine again for this, the thicker gasket is much more expensive than a stock oem one. So beter keep the head on for a while after that :lol: also the thicker headgasket takes almost all slack from the tensioner so it just fits.
What a lot of people over here and in germany do is put the pistons in the lathe and take a few tents of mm of the piston top. Its strong enough and pretty good cheap solution compared to buying new pistons.
Fuel quality is a hassle to improve unless you like to buy dozens of bottles of bio ethanol and add it to the fuel. I did this for a while, works ok but i call it a band aid instead of a solution.
Iat can be improved even more then you have already with a FMIC in combination with better flow described above. Double effective i would say.

Then the largeport head option A. Yes it flows better but doubt how much difference it makes for the surge. And about the exhaust velocity, the 1.25 or 1.5" pipe diameter from the manifold will also have a significant effect on exhaust gas velocity.

Option D, nah in that case just go with a hybrid k04. The setup you have now is great with some potential headroom i would say.

Personally i would go with option B. In combination with FMIC and 2.5" piping. Dropping CR wont hurt top end power. More timing and especially boost will make up for that


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

I hear u beun but don't quite agree on a few things however happy to be proved wrong.

IC piping and FMIC would make surge worse! I have the ability to get air to the engine but it doesn't swallow so I need to improve the ability to get the air out of the cylinders in order to get more in.....dropping exhaust back pressure would improve cylinder filling no? I remember seeing frankenturbo suffering surge and after going to a full 2.5" pipe system and better fmic his surge was worse! This i believe is due to less pressure drop so more air trying to be forced in.....

The exhaust mani is staying for a while so canny change that.

I like option B as a thinner gasket is only £77 and it's great to here it personal experience Thank you


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## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

intott said:


> Thanks 3tt3. Reason why is a gt2871 flows more air for the same pressure. 18psi on my turbo is flowing much more air than a ko4 at 18psi. My engine just won't swallow that much air at that low rpm range.
> I didn't realise beunhass had dropped his CR. This is interesting.
> I accept a lower cr will loose power with all else equal but will the additional timing that can be run make up for the difference lost?


I dont know if I agree with that either  in the sense of: pipe diameter A with a pressure sensor in it or a pressure takeoff hose in the same place , at the same rpm .
The same pressure at the same rpm, as a measure of the engines capability to ingest the air should have the same amount of air passing thru the housing.A different turbo speed perhaps with inertia etc.

After "capping" to fix the surge..probably the same n75 method?
I had a look at some logs
Now 3500 rpm about 19psi , in surge times it was doing anywhere from 20-29 in surge pulses and pre TIP about 22-23 peak.
Wak had to start the capping at 2500 rpm and the capping doesnt finish until 4000 with the "500 rpm thing" as he probly explained to you.
In my case the 23 max psi comes in around 4200 .The actual duty cycle doesnt recover fully until 4500 and my turbo.. at least in my setup has already passed its max amount of air keeping the same pressure limit .

If you accept all the above maybe there is scope to get a lil more action on the duty cycle 500 rpms.youd have to check with Wak tho maybe tweak for say just hitting 23 psi at 4200 and then increasing.
Id have full wmi injection going at that point..such as it is.

The other thing Im wondering about, if you discount the head skimming.
I have 2 smic's. Probably no better than standard..maybe worse ..Forgetting about the cooling aspect , I get around the same indicated iat's as you now (with wmi).
Is there some kind of back pressure possibility with the standard coolers or if there is a high pressure drop with dual coolers does it get worse the higher the pressure goes..and hence surge?.
Id consider the fmic aspect,might even try it myself n see what happens( I do have an ecu wak didnt cap as much but still had surge.
Could be my super uprated smic's will be in marketplace :lol:


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## Beunhaas (May 14, 2014)

intott said:


> I hear u beun but don't quite agree on a few things however happy to be proved wrong.
> 
> IC piping and FMIC would make surge worse! I have the ability to get air to the engine but it doesn't swallow so I need to improve the ability to get the air out of the cylinders in order to get more in.....dropping exhaust back pressure would improve cylinder filling no? I remember seeing frankenturbo suffering surge and after going to a full 2.5" pipe system and better fmic his surge was worse! This i believe is due to less pressure drop so more air trying to be forced in.....
> 
> ...


On surge the general verdict is the engine can't swallow it but from a technical aspect it means the restriction after the compressor outlet is to high. Every reduction in restriction after the compressor outlet will reduce surge and aid flow.
On the downpipe i agree that less backpressure means less remaining gasses in the cylinder so on intake stroke higher filling, but the biggest contributor in backpressure on exhaust side is manifold and turbine AR. Since most turbo's run a pressure ratio of 2 on the turbine IF you gain 1 psi with the downpipe you will gain 2 psi in backpessure on the engine. I doubt if this is going to make that much of a difference.
Or just stroke the engine to get back on the compressor map right of the surge line


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## desertstorm (Apr 25, 2017)

Had a quick read through the thread. Can't believe you are still running standard SMIC's . Be interesting to get a differential pressure gauge and measure the pressure loss between the turbo outlet and where the MAP sensor is measuring. I would get a decent welly cooler fitted. You may have low temps from the WMI making up for the poor IC's but one other advantage of a welly cooler is lower pressure loss across the intake. Especially when you are flowing a lot more air than standard.
I know you have a 3 inch D/P and a 2.75 inch cat back system but what is the exhaust system. At 400bhp should really be 3 inch all through and free flow silencers. I can't see any point in changing the head to a large port item if you are keeping other items that are probably causing more of a restriction.
Have you thought of changing the compressor housing to a ported shroud item. I would be surprised if they weren't available. Would mean a redesign of the intake but would certainly help your surge issues.
It doesn't appear to me that the car hasn't run on a dyno. TBH I think it would be a good idea to take it to a reputable dyno and see what it's doing. Just to verify and validate the measurements you are making. MAF readings are all well and good but as soon as you modify a MAF or even the intake it usually screws up the calibration
Running a slightly higher compression won't help with getting the engine to take more timing but I would tackle the other items before dismantling the engine. What plugs and coils are you running ?


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Stroking did cross my mind but will only do this if the block needs a rebuild down the line.

My main gripe with going fmic is that it blocks the radiator. Coolant temp changes what timing can be run iirc. Currently my water temp is pegged at 89degrees and i don't want to cause this to rise with a fmic again negating any potential benefits a fmic gives. 
I still can't see the following logic - smic gives 18psi at 3.5k. Going fmic and less restrictive piping sees 20psi at 3.5k. Surge gets worse........is my logic way off?

I think I'll invest in a couple of thermocouples and another pressure gauges.

The change is head would do two things. Flow more and allow more timing - these two things are facts as far as I'm concerned.

Anti surge turbo housing. I read on these and they just seemed to cause a loss in overall compressor effeciency but I will do a bit more reading - thanks.

The exhaust system is my custom downpipe mated to a miltek - 3 inch straight through would help yes and it is on my to do list.

I want to DROP CR not increase it which should allow more timing.

Plugs are ngk coppers (7s i think) gapped to 28thou with the red coil packs.

Dyno is the plan but using the maf as a baseline will show if airflow is increasing so its just a reference the same way as I dyno is.


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## desertstorm (Apr 25, 2017)

I said that as you have a higher than normal CR it makes it more difficult to get maybe as much ignition timing as you want.I know that you want to lower the CR. 
How many 400bhp car builds have you seen running standard SMIC's. You are correct excessive coolant temps aren't good but a Welly cooler only covers the bottom part of the rad, and if you look at the finning on an intercoler compared to a radiator they tend to be a lot less dense. 
Do you still have the AC rad fitted?. This is probably as much of an obstruction to airflow than a decent welly cooler would be. 
I don't think the Milltek systems get a good review when it comes to using them on big turbo set ups.

If you are currently seeing 18 Psi at 3.5K with the SMIC that is the pressure seen at the MAP sensor. There is a pressure drop between the compressor outlet and the MAP sensor caused by the intercooler piping and the intercoolers themselves. This is probably a few PSI on yours with the volume of air you are pushing through. If you end up with 20 PSI at 3.5K then as you say the actual pressure the turbo is producing could be the same but you have 2psi more pressure at the intake manifold which will mean better cylinder filling and therefore greater mass flow through the engine.
Have you actually tried running the car without the WMI to see what the intake temps do ?
Are the red top coils you have genuine VAG parts or spurious aftermarket items ?. 
What intake are you using ?. Small pressure drops in the intake system can have a big effect on the PR across the compressor.
https://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobyg ... sure_ratio


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## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

desertstorm said:


> Do you still have the AC rad fitted?. This is probably as much of an obstruction to airflow than a decent welly cooler would be.


Plus one, removed my AC for this reason. Compromise for installing the FMIC and blocking some of the flow to the radiator and of course, how many days a year do we need the AC in this country? Maybe 30... I'd rather be uncomfortable for 30 days of the year and running 15kg's lighter AND comfortable for the other 335 but that's just me :twisted:.


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## NickG (Aug 15, 2013)

If the FMIC is tight against the radiator then it will still see as much airflow in theory. It's when there's a gap between the two that you get an area of low pressure air in between that doesn't flow as well.


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## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

NickG said:


> If the FMIC is tight against the radiator then it will still see as much airflow in theory. It's when there's a gap between the two that you get an area of low pressure air in between that doesn't flow as well.


Now I think about it, I suppose it works a bit like a MAF screen, it HAS to block some amount of flow BUT it will have the benefit of straightening out the flow that does get through. Didn't actually think about this until you commented but not too dis-similar in principle.


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## Jay-225 (Mar 7, 2012)

Just a bit of info on temps , i run a Forge fmic along with a 16 row Mocal oil cooler in front of the rad and aircon rad and normal running temp is 91 deg this is with a genuine 87c stat ... i suppose you could fit the other stat which is rated at 80c so will drop temps a bit if really worried but in real life the 87c works just fine tbh


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

desertstorm said:


> I said that as you have a higher than normal CR it makes it more difficult to get maybe as much ignition timing as you want.I know that you want to lower the CR.
> How many 400bhp car builds have you seen running standard SMIC's. You are correct excessive coolant temps aren't good but a Welly cooler only covers the bottom part of the rad, and if you look at the finning on an intercoler compared to a radiator they tend to be a lot less dense.
> Do you still have the AC rad fitted?. This is probably as much of an obstruction to airflow than a decent welly cooler would be.
> I don't think the Milltek systems get a good review when it comes to using them on big turbo set ups.
> ...


Ah were on the same page with cr.

I get the idea of fmic but I don't want to go with a full height fmic so maybe a low prof cooler would be a good compromise......
My a.c. system has been fully removed from the engine including condenser so this should help. 
Yes the exhaust system also needs sorting. I know I can fit 3.5" to the driveshsft flange then to 3" with resonator delete and twin 3" back boxes.

No haven't tried running without meth. I could with my mbc but why?

Coils are genuine and intake is a full 3" with rs4 maf (pics been deleted?). 
But again if I went open cone for example surge would get worse?


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## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

Purely on my own machine.Open cone vs normal airbox and filter(not even wakked) made no diff to surge,wmi didnt affect surge either.
The only things that did were mbc or boost profile remap
..I didnt replace the original TIP , but Ive no reason to doubt that if I had the surge would have disappeared also.


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

3TT3 said:


> Purely on my own machine.Open cone vs normal airbox and filter(not even wakked) made no diff to surge,wmi didnt affect surge either.
> The only things that did were mbc or boost profile remap
> ..I didnt replace the original TIP , but Ive no reason to doubt that if I had the surge would have disappeared also.


Sorry my point was related to removing intake restriction aka going from stock tip to badger5 tip which as far as I can see always causes surge.


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## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

Ok 
I was just saying the cone vs fully normal made no difference on the surge aspect and I thought it might .
What is the fuelling again.I looked back a few pages and couldnt find it .
My afr dips down to 11 at hi rpms (standard injectors and dw pump),perhaps this is to aid cooling ,but before I changed the pump, inj duty cycle was going well over 100% and the hi end boost was lower ,like only touching 2.2 bar rarely ,now its more like 2.3 bar.
Pretty miserable figures 8) but still better fuelling allowed more hi end boost.

One thing that might be of interest,somebody on here posted their dyno readouts of before and after ign timing changeto more degrees before tdc)
The graphs seemed to show the maf wasnt higher/boost wasnt higher but the engine was producing more power.
I wondered about this before.
As usual I cant find the post now..but it did seem to indicate that a maf reading alone might not show a power increase with a timing change.

For the fmic,Im yielding to the urge ,like I doubted Id ever get wmi either.
Since I have a low temp thermostat engine temp rarely moves off 85 when hot .Maybe itll be something like years ago when motorists stuck sheets of newspaper over the front of the radiator to help the car warm up quickly.
I havent seen any moans about "my fmic is terrible compared to my good ol smic's" so it shouldnt hurt


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## Beunhaas (May 14, 2014)

Jay-225 said:


> Just a bit of info on temps , i run a Forge fmic along with a 16 row Mocal oil cooler in front of the rad and aircon rad and normal running temp is 91 deg this is with a genuine 87c stat ... i suppose you could fit the other stat which is rated at 80c so will drop temps a bit if really worried but in real life the 87c works just fine tbh


Exactly! I also run wellycooler, 16 row oil cooler and ac rad. 1.8bar boost trashing it in hot summer temps or on track the coolant temp stays spot on running the colder 82 degree thermostat.



3TT3 said:


> One thing that might be of interest,somebody on here posted their dyno readouts of before and after ign timing changeto more degrees before tdc)
> The graphs seemed to show the maf wasnt higher/boost wasnt higher but the engine was producing more power.
> I wondered about this before.
> As usual I cant find the post now..but it did seem to indicate that a maf reading alone might not show a power increase with a timing change.


Saw exactly this happing with my own car on the dyno on previous turbo setup. Its quite logic. Think about cycling. You cant put more force on the pedals than your own weight but if your timing is correctly and make sure your entire weight is on the pedal the moment the crank is in horizontal position you generate the most torque.
So advancing timing on you engine and increase cylinder pressure pushing on piston on right moment increases torque and thus power.
Maf numbers didnt increase but dyno power did.


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

The answer regarding what to do next is simple, fit a fmic and have the map tweaked


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Yep aware timing changes won't correlate back to Maf values. From logging, if I can see both maf and timing increase I know I'm going in the right direction.

So it seems folks don't have cooling related issues in the UK climate. Plenty of threads on coolers so will be taking a look at these. 
I don't think however that just going fmic along with exhaust will allow me to run the turbo straight up to 25psi ish without dropping the n75dc for surge. so this is where I'm weighing up a large port head and manitaining CR or just to drop the CR on the small port and run with my custom intake mani......huuummmmm. I know which is less expensive but.. [smiley=bomb.gif]


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Double post


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## desertstorm (Apr 25, 2017)

I would sort the FMIC and exhaust and take the car to a tuner who has experience of mapping these engines with big turbos. 
With the right mapping a tuner can work aound the surge issues you are seeing and get the most out of a set up.
The compression readings you got doesn't look that much more than I have seen on other BAM engines.
A good engine is around 175-180 psi .


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## rocker tt. (Oct 12, 2015)

All the Big turbo TT's that I've seen or read about all run FMIC's, I personally use a Forge model because they fit straight on without any cutting of parts & the Aliens fit without trouble to I've got a 13- row Mocal oil cooler on top & the A/C rad also it runs with no heat problems even in a hot Kentish summer, so I would think your next logical step would be a FMIC.    8)


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## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

Just to rehash !
In the spirit of suggestions.I wish euroturbo.net was still up
It had a great little table about TT standard component power limitations.275 bhp,300bhp ,320,350 and so on .
It had no mention of wmi 

1.I do remember the twin smic were off the table by 350,may have been 320.
Obviously they do still work at power levels above that ^ , but they were in as a limitation. shrug

2. Wak has a lot of experience on big turbos..my little retune had to wait a couple of days cos he was doing one at the time.
Surge,which is mapped out on yours atm,I was just a little surprised at the 18psi limit at 4200 rpm ,whereas mine is just about peaking there say 23psi.I think that may be due to having to map the wdc at 500 rpms...?
eg mine ,I think could do 24psi at 4000 with no surge and the turbo could deliver more than that at those rpms but because the duty cycle had to be cut at say 3500(not as much as yours) , it doesnt have time to get back to the full duty cycle by 4000,so I am in a sense getting the tail end of my max boost.

Yours might be good for 25 psi+ at 4200 as the turbo still has plenty of puff and boost is still increasing but because of duty cycle lag (500 rpm gap)and the fact it had to be cut so low initially the duty cycle hasnt recovered fully by then.
Wak did suggest to me the possibility of using a multipoint electronic boost controller , but I didnt fancy the expense of that!.

3.The top end power and maf like 392 bhp at 314 m/s and 11 degrees .
If MAF doesnt go upand timing advance does..say to 15 you might be getting a lot more out without any indicated maf increase at all .

I know you dont mind a bit of engine work!,but if it was me at those sort of power levels Id go for agood fmic first I mean what if you change to a lower cr gasket /manifold change and it doesnt work out + you would still have the nagging thought of a fmic in the background.

Like above.I do have a second ecu mapped by Wak which has lets say 80%wdc (which wasnt quite enough to cure the surge ) and a 72% one which was . The ignition timings are the same(go on Wak stick a few more degrees in there :lol: ) on both ecu's .
All Ive read on here /elsewhere suggests, anything above stage 1 go fmic or wmi .300+seems to be fmic at least(maybe thats what most would get first anyway).350+.. why not go both.8 out of 10 cats etc.
So all you have to do now is find a decent fmic and then Ill know which one to buy/is on offer and I can be testing away over cmas .. see no ulterior motive at all


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Thanks all for you input!!! I think I've made my decision on what's next.

Let's get some real world tests done!!!! I don't want to have the car off the road the whole time im doing exhaust work, FMIC pipping etc so im going to make a series of hardware changes 1 at a time and produce a good set of logs for each change (MBC to control boost). I want to do it this way so I can provide realworld data to a post Wak made (and for you guys) a few weeks ago wrt skimming cyl heads.

This is the plan:

1) Increase HG thickness by 0.78mm to drop CR (will do this over the Christmas holiday)

2) #1 + larger intake manifold (mid Jan to Feb)

3) #1 + #2 + full 3" exhaust system ( March )

4) #1 + #2 + #3 + FMIC and associated pipping (April/May)

I will use Unisettings to make any necessary adjustments to fuelling or base timing but retain the current Wak map for each of the above (assuming im still within ME7s range for correction). In the mix somewhere ill probly end up having to upgrade my stock original 80k clutch J


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## desertstorm (Apr 25, 2017)

If you understand what causes surge on a turbo compressor then you can understand why different turbos behave differently on the same engine and why different mods make the difference they do.
Different compressor wheels have different compressor maps. Essentially they all look pretty similar but if you compare different size wheels across a range of turbos you will see that bigger compressor wheels flow more air (fairly obvious) but that the surge line tends to move to the right as the compressor size increases. Ie the amount of airflow required to stop surge for a given Pressure ratio increases.Different designs of compressor wheel6+6, 7+7 , 11 blade etc etc all change the compressor maps and the surge onset point.
https://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobyg ... surge_line
What stops the air that the compressor pressurises from trying to pass back through the compressor wheel into the intake ? This is what is happening when surge occurs. The air has a mass and velocity and if there is enough air mass travelling fast enough it effectively forms a barrier that stops pressurised air in the turbo from trying to get out. Imagine the intake of the turbo is larger with a bigger compressor wheel but it's on the same size engine.
If it makes the same amount of boost at a given mass flow there is effectively less air filling a larger hole so it's easier for reverse flow to occur.
Change a standard TIP for a Badger TIP you sometimes see surge. A standard TIP is narrower so has higher velocity airflow at the intake, The larger diameter Badger TIP drops the air speed and makes a small change to the PR across the compressor allowing surge to occur. 
It's more pronounced and worse in higher gears as the boost Pressure has more time to build to a higher level. A FMIC has a much larger volume than SMIC's so acts as an accumulator as well as dampening pressure pulses in the intake.
Changes to the PID control (Proportional, Integral, derivative) along with fuelling and timing can all reduce or eliminate surge but it takes quite a bit of time experience and many iterations to get it perfect. Which is why mapping big turbo engines is not a 5 minute job so is not cheap.
http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/i ... opic=315.0 
The N249 valve that people are so quick to delete is there to stop surge when the throttle is closed quickly at high RPM.
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthrea ... -not-do-it


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Thanks desertstorm. Appreciate these good contributions 

I work in jet engine design for a living (not the internals but control systems) so yes I'm able to interpret comp maps. This was why I chose the gt2871r as it flows about 40-45lbs/min. I plotted my MAF sensor g/s along with boost pressure (assuming a few psi IC losses and a small pressure drop on the comp inlet) to plot show where I'm at vs the .52 trim compressor map. I'm hovering right on the left untill around 27lbs/min. It's relatively easy to predict a static system but as you eluded to, it's dynamic so a change here affects the system as a whole. 
Agree totally on the n249. What this is basically doing is increasing pressure at the comp intake by reducing (keeping the dv open) outlet pressure at the same time as engine flow (maf g/s or rpm) is increasing. As well as stopping the boost spike on throttle plate close (30 sample /sec show this clearly)

PID and mapping can only go so far if the hardware does not allow for efficient running at certain conditions. I spent around 8hours with Wak mapping and am happy we got out what could be had safely.


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## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

12 degrees, standard ME7 max auto correction limit.


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

It begins. :mrgreen: damn it's cold!!


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## ProjectMick (Sep 29, 2015)

Wish I had a workspace like that - could learn so much stripping down an engine in my spare time!

Good luck, I'll be keeping an eye on it.


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

The car is now back on the road and running well. Here's a bit of a break down of wat iv done

2mm head gasket (OEM is 1.2mm so aprox 0.5 cr reduction)
Full set of exhaust tappets 
3 new intake tappets 
New timing belt 
New timing tensioner
New pulleys
New timing chain 
New gaskets 
New v belt and tensioner

I'll get the me7 plugged in so can see what the timing is up to and afr. I've already gone through 2nd and 3rd wot and it feels great. There is a very small reduction in responsiveness and my crusing mpg is slightly down but tbh it's really no different to drive than before. I hope to be able to add a few degrees ignition timing and bump up the boost. Will try again with the mbc and see if I can let this BT spool up uninterrupted. 25psi by 4.1k is the goal.

Next on the cards is fitting this new inlet manifold and fabing up some custom ic piping. I'll also be taking a trip to Midland vw in the near future so I can get it on the rolling road.


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## Beunhaas (May 14, 2014)

Good work!

Verry interested to see log of timingpull with the lower CR. Should be completely gone and more boost can be added 8) 
Also a log of boost on 9.0 and 8.5 CR would be interesting to see if it hurts spool that much.

The lower mpg during cruising is quite logical. reduction in CR means reduction in peak cilinder pressure (because off boost while cruising) and thus lower efficiency in the Otto cycle. Got to love thermodynamics [smiley=book2.gif]

What was the reason for new tappets? Surface wear?


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Beunhaas said:


> Good work!
> 
> Verry interested to see log of timingpull with the lower CR. Should be completely gone and more boost can be added 8)
> Also a log of boost on 9.0 and 8.5 CR would be interesting to see if it hurts spool that much.
> ...


Cheers dude! It's been a battle in this cold weather

Yes will do an overlay pre and post cr change

Cylinder pressures will be reduced and I'll also have lost some efficiency the quench pads in the combustion chamber gave due to the increased clearance between the piston and the cylinder head.

On the day before pulling the head I noticed the induction tone sounded different. After pulling the camshafts off and pressing down on the tappets I could feel that some of the tappets were springy. One was completely fubard. I can only hear the injectors ticking away now.


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

So some logs for those interested.

All i have done to the tune is add 5.25degrees of timing via unisettings (iat were about 8 degrees cooler on the later pull) and still no corrections in any gear - cant argue with that!!! The boost at redline is the same as before so i think im going to add a psi or two by adjusting the waste gate spring.

I hooked up my MBC to see if i can now spool straight to 25psi without surge but no, i still cant. Surges like a bitch in 4th gear at around 3800rpm.

Green/Orange are the new curves.


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## Beunhaas (May 14, 2014)

Hi mate,
Interesting graphs. With the lower CR you still spooling the turbo harder. Don't know if all settings are same or boost was capped on the old 9.0 CR to prevent surge?

The fact that timing pull is completely gone, even with increased timing, is a good thing! Now feed it more boost 8)


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Beunhaas said:


> Hi mate,
> Interesting graphs. With the lower CR you still spooling the turbo harder. Don't know if all settings are same or boost was capped on the old 9.0 CR to prevent surge?
> 
> The fact that timing pull is completely gone, even with increased timing, is a good thing! Now feed it more boost 8)


Yes the n75 control is unchanged. Had to hold the boost back at 4-5k for surge and then boost up to 27psi at 5.3krpm. Indeed it is time to add more boost so will add some spring rate to the wg to hold more up top.


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

I'm booked in on the Dyno tomorrow 9:15am down at Midland VW in Cannok. After adding some more boost, I'm still not getting any timing pull so hoping to pass the 400bhp mark now.


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## desertstorm (Apr 25, 2017)

Pity you weren't there today I would have popped down for a nosey. Midland VW is about 3 miles from me, used it several times, had my Passat PD130 on there dyno a few times. Great bunch of people, took the front Hub off the TT there to get the bearing pressed out. Only charged me a tenner.
Chris will probably be running the dyno. 
The plan for my car is to run it on the track this year, see how it goes. if I like it and it goes OK next Nov-Jan the engine will be coming out, head off rods and valve, decent clutch and a big turbo of some description. A GT2871R is on the short list.
Karl.


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Yep Chris did my first couple of Dyno runs a few years ago and is a good bloke.
I knew there was someone from that neck of the woods on here.

If I were to do this again I would choose the newish gtx2860r. 
A sexy compressor map and virtually no lag and flows the same as a 2871r


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## Gtturbo (Jan 7, 2017)

Don't understand why no one has mentioned larger valves?

To remove surge properly you need the make the engine breath better and the bits that make it breath aren't ports, its tiddly valves, it's a shame that the arrangement means only small gains on each inlet valve.

I think you should of fitted the biggest valves possible whilst it was all apart tho.

And then considered an antisurge housing for your turbo.

Nice results on the ignition timing tho.

Also you can fit the genuine lower temp rated 1.8t thermostat to improve ignition timing slightly.


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## Jay-225 (Mar 7, 2012)

intott said:


> Yep Chris did my first couple of Dyno runs a few years ago and is a good bloke.
> I knew there was someone from that neck of the woods on here.
> 
> If I were to do this again I would choose the newish gtx2860r.
> A sexy compressor map and virtually no lag and flows the same as a 2871r


You want to be looking at the new Garrett G25-550 on paper it looks stunning and should be a very good match for the 1.8 

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.p ... ink/page16


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## desertstorm (Apr 25, 2017)

The G25-550 does indeed look like a very good match for the 1.8. Garret seem to have copied a lot of stuff from the BW EFR turbos to take another step. They have only just been released so availability is not good and they look to be pretty expensive.


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## Beunhaas (May 14, 2014)

The new g series looks indeed very good but as desertstorm already mentioned, its all copy paste from borg warner. And BW should come up with a new generation soon so that should be some interesting stuff 8)

BTW, how did the car perform on the rollers?


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Ok, so not quite what i hoped for......given i hit 29psi peak boost and hold 26psi, Iat are around 20degC (with WMI), timing is around 15degrees(jumps around like a mad man thought) with 2deg corrections and egts are peaking at 850 - i expected more torque and more top end. Do we think this is due to stock SMIC and a 2.75" cat back? The MAF values are still around 310g/s so the back calc of g/s/0.8 is miles off. 
I took logs during each pull so ill upload the corresponding graphs shortly.







.


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## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

Hi mate, with power figures like that all I can imagine is your dyno' is very much like the one I had mine on in that it is a very accurate dyno and not the typical over-inflated add 5% type dyno'... I'm making an assumption by saying that I know but if this is the case you could expect to see nearly an extra 20bhp on a different dyno'.

I'd say you need a FMIC for sure, I wasn't aware that you didn't have one. People say the bigger the better but an appropriately sized intercooler with 2.4" pipe-work (3" too big IMO) allowed for some nice spool.

Can't see the 2.75" cat-back robbing you of too much power because as we both know, the initial outlet and down-pipe size are where the gains are had. A 4" down-pipe with a 3" cat-back would give a lit more power than a 3" down-pipe with a 4" cat-back as you know.

I honestly think the 0.25" loss further down the line will maybe equate to 5 bhp loss at maximum so I wouldn't worry about that aspect matey.

Are VW Midland good at what they do? Are you sure the car is being tuned to its potential?


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

I'm interested to know your reasoning behind keeping the smic at this level of tune, wmi can only do so much.


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## Jay-225 (Mar 7, 2012)

100% think its time to bin the smic's :lol: pretty sure you are the only BT build that is still using them  Get one of the welly coolers with a 60mm core , should do the trick nicely  The standard intercoolers get heat soaked very quickly with 22psi from a K04 let alone nearly 2 bar from a GT2871R :lol: As Delta said only so much WMI can do ...


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## Jay-225 (Mar 7, 2012)

Also check Bills post from today about 2.75 vs 3" exhaust, its on a GT30 but still them gains are nice 8)

https://www.facebook.com/Badger5Ltd/?hc ... DmDX0Jtynk

remember, Its all about the flow....which them smic are hurting :wink:


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

No tuning done today. Just a RR session. Since the switch to 8.5cr I've dialed in 4.25deg timing via unisettings.

I know you say the wmi can only do so much....my iats are between 20 and 35 deg c on these runs and that's with the second smallest devil's own nozzle......... The are smic are working imo and the wmi is only dropping iat by around 10degC. My bigger concern is not heat rejection but flow restrictions. Time to put a temp/pressure sensor at the turbo outlet.

Re exhaust, I do think going 2.75 to 3 would make a difference. Given my turbo inlet is 3" the exhaust surely needs to be the same or bigger! A catback miltek will soon be up for sale!


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## desertstorm (Apr 25, 2017)

As stated above a free flowing 3 inch exhaust and a wellycooler will make a big difference in the performance of the car.
The SMIC intercoolers do not flow that well apart from the fact they are inadequate for cooling at the power levels you are aiming for.
That graph on Bills site was quite interesting in that when you got right to the top end of the RPM range there was no difference in power but the mid range spool of the turbo was very much helped.
Even a small reduction in exhaust pressure or the intake losses has quite a big effect on the pressure ratio the turbo has to produce to get a certain amount of flow.By keeping the PR lower you run less risk of crossing the surge line.


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## Gtturbo (Jan 7, 2017)

Post a pic of the ignition timing up and down, its likely being caused inside the map and can be easily switched off, lowers egt and makes everything much more stable.


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Gtturbo said:


> Post a pic of the ignition timing up and down, its likely being caused inside the map and can be easily switched off, lowers egt and makes everything much more stable.


Im not sure what you mean? Inside the map and can be switched off?


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## desertstorm (Apr 25, 2017)

The timing doesn't look right at all. Are you specifying to much advance and getting a load of knock so the ECU is backing the timing right off. It's all over the place.
Was this on the dyno when it was doing a pull or was it something like a 3rd gear acceleration run


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

desertstorm said:


> The timing doesn't look right at all. Are you specifying to much advance and getting a load of knock so the ECU is backing the timing right off. It's all over the place.
> Was this on the dyno when it was doing a pull or was it something like a 3rd gear acceleration run


This is a log on the dyno with 3deg added to the timing via unisettings. I'm getting max 3deg of correction on 1cylinder which is shown on the first graph above. The timing looks the same with no additional timing added.......


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## NickG (Aug 15, 2013)

Just had a good dig through the build again as there's a potential to me of getting a GT2871r setup that's coming available soon. For the series I'm looking to race in I'd be restricted to 300bhp/ton, assuming a car weight of 1200kg that means to be top of the class so to speak I'd want around 350-360bhp (to confirm that is 100% flywheel measured power and empty car weight, I have checked with the organiser.).

So given that this turbo can clearly make that kind of power and then some I was wondering more about it's performance on a standard 1.8T engine with only forged rods. Torque isn't limited so I'd want to get that as high as possible.

Kit comes with a cast t25 manifold and a downpipe (part of the attraction) so that element I'd prefer to keep as is, do you have any thoughts on whether surge would be an issue to me, as I'm not looking to run crazy power? And also how possible it would be and what I'd need to do to get as early power as possible?

Sorry for the thread hijack!


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## desertstorm (Apr 25, 2017)

A GT2871R would probably be a good choice I would of thought, quick spooling and as you say capable of 350 bhp plus.
But as you know the peak numbers are only part of the story , the area under the curve is what counts. A decent tuner should be able to give you a better idea of you need and what should be capable. 
How do they police the series, do they put everyone on a dyno and scales at every meet ?. Or do they just trust you.
Who will be mapping the car?.


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## NickG (Aug 15, 2013)

It's a case of getting the car dyno'd at a listed place before the season starts and then i guess they trust that you aren't modifying this further in any respect... It's a question in my head as surely it depends on what day you run, you could in theory map higher and then book in in the summer when :?

Weight is spot checked at the end of sessions.


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## Gtturbo (Jan 7, 2017)

Turn off armd in ecu file. Ignition timing should become smooth.

If it doesn't and there's no knock correction then revisit the torque monitoring tables hint* kfmirl and kfmiop. I hand edit/make these to suit as per factory method and never have any issues, do not use me7wizard to create them


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

NickG said:


> So given that this turbo can clearly make that kind of power and then some I was wondering more about it's performance on a standard 1.8T engine with only forged rods. Torque isn't limited so I'd want to get that as high as possible.
> 
> Kit comes with a cast t25 manifold and a downpipe (part of the attraction) so that element I'd prefer to keep as is, do you have any thoughts on whether surge would be an issue to me, as I'm not looking to run crazy power? And also how possible it would be and what I'd need to do to get as early power as possible?
> 
> Sorry for the thread hijack!


Surge is an issue with this turbo when running stock intercoolers and stock intake manifold. I recommend removing as much restrictions in the charge system and upgrading the intake manifold. For better spool I would go 3.5 to 3 inch on the exhaust side.


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Gtturbo said:


> Turn off armd in ecu file. Ignition timing should become smooth.
> 
> If it doesn't and there's no knock correction then revisit the torque monitoring tables hint* kfmirl and kfmiop. I hand edit/make these to suit as per factory method and never have any issues, do not use me7wizard to create them


As much as I would love to - I don't have the ability (software wise) to modify the mapping myself. Id love to spend a day with some learning the basics so I can get into it myself.........


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

4inchs of snow no problems getting 10miles to work


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Small update

Picked up a forge supersize dv and installed it yesterday - wow what an improvement vs the 008! Faster pickup between changes but seems smoother at the same time. Will have to play around with a few different springs but currently running the yellow. It also sounds way better and no more low boost flutter. Not a full finished I stall as I'll be replacing the hoses with 40mm.


































Today did another compression test. 165 to 172 - about 15 down with the thicker hg. Spark plugs looking good I think. 

























Final thing - some may cringe or say it's a step to far but an exhaust cutout is coming. Track use only.


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Not updated for a while as I've just been enjoying the car this summer.

A few bits and bobs fitted

Steering wheel recovered

















Fmic fitted

















Wheel arches treated with waxoil 









Resprayed the alloys to match the body colour


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## Wak (May 6, 2002)

It's hard to explain what the supersize dv does but it seems to reduce the turbo stall between gear changes and you get higher boost back on throttle.. it's a good mod!

I'd advise red spring and also a 6 monthly check and service.

I've had two issues which were

1. A broken spring which took me a long time to find as I thought turbo was dying first. 
And 
2. The O ring on the cap is very thin and after 1st or second service were so crushed retightening the lid that there was a small leak which took a long time to narrow down, so consider a fresh cap O ring supply for servicing.

Hence keep an eye on it.

It's still thoroughly recommended not seen one on a k04 but in theory the benefits should be similar but I would advise caution against gear change higher boost spikes on a turbo that could give higher torque but lower and earlier in the revs on stock rods.


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## desertstorm (Apr 25, 2017)

Must have missed the update on the added FMIC just clicked onto this great thread. Has it helped any , After the really hot summer we had this year your SMIC'S would not have been happy.

How is the engine for vibration these days with the 30 grade pink filled engine mounts instead of the 60 grade ?


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Thanks for the input Wak. Will bare this in mind!

The fmic has done it's job at maintaining iat. After multiple wot pulls I don't see iat going above 40deg C even with ambient temps near 30degC. 
For example it was 18degC outside and going from 2 through to 4th gear wot saw a total iat increase of only 7 degrees. 20deg to 27 deg. There is a little more lag than with the smic but nothing that bothers me.

The engine mounts are holding up fine. No noticeable vibrations tbh can't say it feels different to the OEM mounts. The main purpose of filling the mounts was to limit the range of movement and not to add stiffness - if that makes sense....


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Bit of tinkering this weekend. Finished installing the larger dv with 40mm pipework and reworked the intake pipe slightly. 
Not sure of the heat coloured piping


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## Wak (May 6, 2002)

looks great, be interested to know if you feel higher boost on gear changes with this?


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## Beunhaas (May 14, 2014)

Fabrication looks good as always!
Im interested in the choice for going hot side instead of cold side. I would guess feeding 100 deg air back in the turbo is not that great. Would be nice if you combined this new dv with cold side and a new true 2.5" map pipe to unlock some additional flow.

Cheers


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Not booted it yet but the dv noise is much crisper then before, way louder tsshhh. I guess this is because the air is hotter so more energy being released. 
Cold side vs hot side is a question I never really saw an answer to with actual data. The draw back is that it is in a hotter environment and hot air is being dumped back into the intake, but then if the air is hotter, the pressure will be higher so may work in the turbos favour due to reducing the pressure ratio across the turbo? For me it was more down to packaging - less pipework on the hotside compared with the coldside. 
Replacing the pipework post intercooler means I'd need to relocate or get a smaller battery and do a whole load more fabrication.....it's getting cold out now.


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## desertstorm (Apr 25, 2017)

I tried moving the dump to the cold side and found it wasn't as good as the OE set up. There was more noticeable lag on gear changes. Put this down to the fact that when dumping from the cold side the pressure in the engine side of the intercooler empties first. and the pressure on the compressor outlet stops higher for longer.
During gear change you lose the pressure and heat driving the turbine, having a lot of pressure on the compressor outlet means the turbine will slow down quicker.
So the OE solution of venting from the hot side seems to work better. Removes pressure from the compressor outlet quickly. Pressure on the engine side of the Intercooler stops high for longer, so when the throttle opens again boost is present.
Hot air is less dense then cold air so it's easier for the turbo to maintain speed. 
The EFR turbos have a built in bypass valve that re cyles air directly from the compressor into the intake, which is the best solution as far as I can see.


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## Wak (May 6, 2002)

I think OE setups are generally down to design limitations and packaging, A 2.7 S4 and RS4 twin turbo has cold side diverting as standard....

So even Audi have pre cooling and post cooling diverter setups in their range.


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Wish I never started...........came up good though.


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## BrianB (Apr 15, 2016)

intott said:


> Wish I never started...........came up good though.


That looks really really good.


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

BrianB said:


> intott said:
> 
> 
> > Wish I never started...........came up good though.
> ...


 [smiley=cheers.gif]


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## Jay-225 (Mar 7, 2012)

intott said:


> Wish I never started...........came up good though.


Yep gets my approval, looks stunning and the work has certainly paid off


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## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

That fab work is lovely, I can imagine the dumping being much louder as you've described. Leads me onto something I've been thinking about for the last month or so though. Why exactly has no one ever thought to mount the DV as close to the charge pipe as possible, rather than having a pipe come off the charge pipe and lead to the DV first?

In my head the turbo won't have to fill the volume of the dump-valve runner any more which is a plus. Once the runner has filled up I imagine it causes a small amount of back pressure back into the main charge too.

I will be trying this myself at some point to see if it makes any difference whatsoever. I'll do a little drawing now and attach it below. Apologies for my very unsteady mouse-hand.


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Some engine bay bling


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Tom I would assume that having a piece of silicone attaching to each end of the dv acts as a form of insulation against conducted heat from the charge pipe so with an OEM dv the plastic won't get as hot. Filling is sort of the wrong word, there is no flow in the dv lines under boost and so the air is at static pressure. plus a 100ml section of pipe ain't going to change didly on response times of the dv. Most of the jdm turbo cars do have the dv directly mounted to the charge pipework but these are usually metal valves not plastic like the Audi's. 
In theory a dv directly mounted to the charge pipe is best but in reality you won't notice any differences.


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## BrianB (Apr 15, 2016)

intott said:


> Some engine bay bling
> View attachment 1


What finish is that on your charge pipe? Looks good and different.


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

I used my blow tourch to slowly heat the pipe up untill it turned the golden straw colour.


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## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

intott said:


> Tom I would assume that having a piece of silicone attaching to each end of the dv acts as a form of insulation against conducted heat from the charge pipe so with an OEM dv the plastic won't get as hot. Filling is sort of the wrong word, there is no flow in the dv lines under boost and so the air is at static pressure. plus a 100ml section of pipe ain't going to change didly on response times of the dv. Most of the jdm turbo cars do have the dv directly mounted to the charge pipework but these are usually metal valves not plastic like the Audi's.
> In theory a dv directly mounted to the charge pipe is best but in reality you won't notice any differences.


Ah, I wasn't aware that the air is at static pressure, I thought the little DV runner would have boosted air enter it and try to force its way back out into the main charge resulting in a small amount of back-pressure.

Probably won't bother! I still can't get over how nice your fab work is, your engine bay is really, really nice 8)...


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

Updates have slowed down recently. Nothing exiting to report.

3rd mot passed since the rebuild. The 200cell miltek cat seems to be doing the job fine as emissions were all fine. No advisories either.

A couple of pics. 1 of the high/low boost toggle switch iv put in the centre console and a snowy morning drive up in the peak district.


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## intott (Apr 7, 2015)

With great regret my TT is for sale 

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre ... 3638245953


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## conlechi (May 6, 2006)

Sad to hear  all that work and time and expense ..... that's so much car for the money ! 
Good luck with the sale


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## HOGG (Mar 30, 2018)

Let's swap engines before you sell lol

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


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## desertstorm (Apr 25, 2017)

Sorry to hear that you have to sell the car. I am sure you will find a buyer for it as it's a very sorted car , perfect for the summer.


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

That's a very beautiful car.

Someone will be very happy with it, I'm loving the wheels.


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