# RS6 left for dead by the new 7speed 507bhp BMW M5...



## Guest

http://www.germancarfans.com/news.cfm/n ... 02.007/bmw /1.html

The ultimate in sports saloon motoring has got a name: M5. This finest 5 Series vehicle is the most powerful of all time: five litres of cubic capacity, ten cylinders, a maximum output of 507 bhp (373 kW), a peak torque of 520 Newton metres and engine speeds redlining at 8,000 rpm, these are figures that speak for themselves. In an unprecedented way, these figures blur the lines between a car for everyday use and a vehicle for ambitious motor sport racing.

*The perfect choice: high-revving concept. *
For the BMW M engineers the compact, high-revving normally aspirated engine was the ideal choice. With a red line of 8,250 rpm, the ten-cylinder engine has ventured into terrain which has so far been reserved for red-blooded racing cars. Compared to the previous M5 eight-cylinder engine, performance has increased by more than 25 percent. The M5 has also surpassed the magical 100 bhp per litre limit, its specific output being on par with that of racing cars.

*Seven-speed SMG gearbox conveys M power to the tarmac. *
The high-revving concept only succeeds in combination with a gearbox which translates the torque available to the engine, by means of a short overall transmission ratio, into optimised forward thrust.

The seven-speed SMG gearbox is precisely the right transmission to ideally convey the V10 engineâ€™s power via the drive train to the wheels. BMW M is the first manufacturer worldwide to offer a seven-speed sequential gearbox with drivelogic function. Even more highly perfected than the previous six-speed transmission, the seven-speed SMG gearbox enables manual gear selection with ultra-short shifting times as well as comfortable cruising thanks to automated gear selection. The purpose of the additional seventh gear is to reduce engine speed and torque gaps.

*New SMG gearboxâ€™s speed up by 20 percent. *
With the seven-speed SMG gearbox, gears can be changed using the gearshift lever on the centre console or the paddles on the steering wheel. Compared to the previous SMG transmission, changing gears is 20 percent faster with the new SMG generation. Never before has it been quicker to change gears with a transmission of this kind. The advantage for the M5 driver: 
Gear change is smooth and accomplished at a speed impossible to reach even by the most proficient driver, thus making the inevitable power flow interruptions when changing gears hardly noticeable. The M5 delivers an almost jerk-free performance when accelerating from a standstill to its top speed.

*Maximum driving pleasure. *
The interaction of the V10 engine and the seven-speed SMG gearbox results in a level of performance, which has so far been inconceivable for series-production saloons. Above all, there is one thing the M5 gives to its driver: driving pleasure at its best. Compared to the previous M5, the current model comes up trumps in all performance and fun disciplines: it accomplishes the 0 to 62 mph sprint in less than five seconds and reaches the 200 km/h (124 mph) mark after a mere 15 seconds to go on to the electronically limited top speed of 250 km/h (155 mph). A glance at the speedometer reveals where this power package would head for if maximum speed was not electronically limited: an awe-inspiring 330 km/h (205 mph).

*The NÃ¼rburgring serves as a test track. *
Compared to all direct competitors, the interaction of actual forward thrust and a low vehicle weight is a strong argument in favour of the new M5. Also in this respect, the M5 sets the benchmark and leaves its competitors far behind.

An undisputed gauge of driving dynamics is the northern loop of the legendary NÃ¼rburgring race track. For decades, the worldâ€™s most demanding race track has been the perfect place of separating the wheat from the chaff. There is no other place where the interaction of vehicle components when taken to the limits can be observed as well as on the NÃ¼rburgringâ€™s northern loop. With lap times of approximately eight minutes, the M5 can hold its own and is a worthy competitor of thoroughbred sports cars, leaving its competitors far behind. By the way: traditionally, all M vehicles are tested there.


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## scoTTy

Awesome bit of kit.

8minutes for a lap. I wonder when they'll change the ring taxis for these.

I'm seriously thinking of booking now so that when I get to the front of the list in a years time it will definately be in one of these. 8)


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## kmpowell

Awesome engine, but dodgy 'barge' looks! :?

And whats that about only 8,000rpm!? :roll:


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## chip

kmpowell said:


> And whats that about only 8,000rpm!? :roll:


I'm pretty sure it will still whoop your arse on the road/track at any rpm (below 8k rpm)!!  

This M5 looks one mean mother!   Makes me wonder what BMW have in mind for the rumoured new M3 in 2005. if it's anyways comparable to the new M5, I'll definitely be cashing in my share options!!


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## Guest

well in all those car mag's the RS6 couldn't really beat the old M5....

like the 7speed


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## scavenger

RS6 left for dead? Surely an exaggeration. Yeah sure it would be outperformed, but with such a small performance margin surely not left for dead. Isn't the current RS6 pumping out 470ish BHP?

As an aside, Sundeep, your 993 looks bloody lovely [smiley=thumbsup.gif]


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## ag

From certain angles, in certain lights, with certain wheels and the right colour I can just about keep my lunch down. Even in M5 trim it doesn't "look" any more important than a 318i. Furthermore with over 500 BHP and a national speed limit of 70MPH it is utterly pointless.

Having said that, I'm not too inspired by the new A6 and Mercedes E-Klasse either. Are they going to make an M5 Touring?


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## raven

Well I think it looks awesome and what a spec. However, I wonder how the SMG compares against Audi's (and Porsche's ultimately) DSG? They claim the gear change to be faster than any similar gear box, so that must surely mean the DSG?? But hasn't the SMG got only one clutch?


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## scoTTy

DSG could change 9 times in the time for one SMG change so making it 20% quicker isn't really that impressive.

They are comparing slush box with slush box.


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## Peter Langly

Of course the M5 will leave the RS6 for dead, the Audi is awful on the track compared to the M5.

TBH, BMW have always been better than Audi.

Bloody joke when Audi released the V8 S4 to compete with the 6 cylinder M3. :roll:


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## W7 PMC

Peter Langly said:


> Of course the M5 will leave the RS6 for dead, the Audi is awful on the track compared to the M5.
> 
> TBH, BMW have always been better than Audi.
> 
> Bloody joke when Audi released the V8 S4 to compete with the 6 cylinder M3. :roll:


Wind your neck in & stop talking $hite.

Point 1 the old M5 is not even a close match for a standard RS6 on either the road or the track, as its giving away 50BHP & god only knows how much torque along with no 4WD & about the same weight. Just look at the usual figures & they are far enough apart in performance terms.

Point 2, an RS6 with the same power as the new V10 M5 (aka mine which has around 510BHP) is hardly going to be left for dead, in fact quite the opposite. Yet again just look at the figures. Mine produces 460lbsft of Torque, which i think you'll find is some way ahead of the new M5 & my RS6 can hit 60 in a touch over 4 seconds & keep going to 200MPH, yet the report posted quotes under 5 for the M5 which indicates a sprint time of about 4.7/4.8 seconds which to point out is either the same or .1 second slower than a standard RS6. :lol:

Mine has been tracked against many supercars including 360 Modenas, 996 & Ruf Turbos along with 996 GT2's & 3's, a variety of TVR's & guess what? it managed to not only compete on sprint, top speed & handling, but it beat all these cars & some by a fairly favourable margin. Point to you, it crucified both the M3 CSL,s.

Perhaps you know little about cars, hence your brazen statement, but i can assure you that any Audi V8 will more than match up against an M3. Once again just look at the stats.


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## W7 PMC

scavenger said:


> RS6 left for dead? Surely an exaggeration. Yeah sure it would be outperformed, but with such a small performance margin surely not left for dead. Isn't the current RS6 pumping out 470ish BHP?
> 
> As an aside, Sundeep, your 993 looks bloody lovely [smiley=thumbsup.gif]


I think he has difficulty reading & basic maths.

The old M5 would not even match a standard RS6 & the new M5 would perhaps make a very tiny gain against a standard RS6, but that would really come down to driver ability & very little else.

A modified RS6 with equal power to the new M5 would reverse this & quite easily pull away 8) :lol:


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## W7 PMC

Peter Langly said:


> Of course the M5 will leave the RS6 for dead, the Audi is awful on the track compared to the M5.
> 
> TBH, BMW have always been better than Audi.
> 
> Bloody joke when Audi released the V8 S4 to compete with the 6 cylinder M3. :roll:


Perhaps you should view all the posts on a page before posting such tosh.

http://www.********.co.uk/ttforumbbs/vi ... hp?t=27588


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## himpe

W7 PMC said:


> Peter Langly said:
> 
> 
> 
> Of course the M5 will leave the RS6 for dead, the Audi is awful on the track compared to the M5.
> 
> TBH, BMW have always been better than Audi.
> 
> Bloody joke when Audi released the V8 S4 to compete with the 6 cylinder M3. :roll:
> 
> 
> 
> Wind your neck in & stop talking $hite.
Click to expand...

I think we hit a nerv here [smiley=argue.gif]

:lol:


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## snaxo

himpe said:


> W7 PMC said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Peter Langly said:
> 
> 
> 
> Of course the M5 will leave the RS6 for dead, the Audi is awful on the track compared to the M5.
> 
> TBH, BMW have always been better than Audi.
> 
> Bloody joke when Audi released the V8 S4 to compete with the 6 cylinder M3. :roll:
> 
> 
> 
> Wind your neck in & stop talking $hite.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think we hit a nerv here [smiley=argue.gif]
> 
> :lol:
Click to expand...

I love the RS6 - however, compared to all other aspects of the car, aren't they supposed to be a bit average (in standard form anyway) on the handling front? Also they suffer the Audi 'numb' steering problem.

EVO have a review of the RS6+ this month and says its fab mostly but the steering is still crap. It's a lot of dough (66k?) but apparently worth the extra over the standard RS6.

Point here is also Paul that the new M5 is standard. It's all very well comparing it to a modified RS - but then what happens when you take the BM to the tuning clinic as well - you can go on forever.

Whether you are an Audi or BMW bigot (I find this whole rivalry hilarious - I go for whichever is the better car!) the new M5 is an awesome machine in standard form - and probably now raises the bar for performance saloon motoring.

Damian


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## Antwerpman

Any idea on prices?? I guess not cheap......60-70K??


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## clived

raven said:


> Well I think it looks awesome and what a spec. However, I wonder how the SMG compares against Audi's (and Porsche's ultimately) DSG? They claim the gear change to be faster than any similar gear box, so that must surely mean the DSG?? But hasn't the SMG got only one clutch?


Wouldn't this only matter (in the context of this thread) if the RS6 actually had DSG?


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## W7 PMC

himpe said:


> W7 PMC said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Peter Langly said:
> 
> 
> 
> Of course the M5 will leave the RS6 for dead, the Audi is awful on the track compared to the M5.
> 
> TBH, BMW have always been better than Audi.
> 
> Bloody joke when Audi released the V8 S4 to compete with the 6 cylinder M3. :roll:
> 
> 
> 
> Wind your neck in & stop talking $hite.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think we hit a nerv here [smiley=argue.gif]
> 
> :lol:
Click to expand...

Not in the slightest. Plenty of other cars i'd like to own, so i'm certainly not the worlds biggest RS6 fan but i do know when someone is spouting shite :? & the post i was quoting in my reply, was just that 

The statement that BMW have always been better than Audi was quite a rich one as well :lol: :lol:


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## W7 PMC

snaxo said:


> himpe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> W7 PMC said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Peter Langly said:
> 
> 
> 
> Of course the M5 will leave the RS6 for dead, the Audi is awful on the track compared to the M5.
> 
> TBH, BMW have always been better than Audi.
> 
> Bloody joke when Audi released the V8 S4 to compete with the 6 cylinder M3. :roll:
> 
> 
> 
> Wind your neck in & stop talking $hite.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think we hit a nerv here [smiley=argue.gif]
> 
> :lol:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I love the RS6 - however, compared to all other aspects of the car, aren't they supposed to be a bit average (in standard form anyway) on the handling front? Also they suffer the Audi 'numb' steering problem.
> 
> EVO have a review of the RS6+ this month and says its fab mostly but the steering is still crap. It's a lot of dough (66k?) but apparently worth the extra over the standard RS6.
> 
> Point here is also Paul that the new M5 is standard. It's all very well comparing it to a modified RS - but then what happens when you take the BM to the tuning clinic as well - you can go on forever.
> 
> Whether you are an Audi or BMW bigot (I find this whole rivalry hilarious - I go for whichever is the better car!) the new M5 is an awesome machine in standard form - and probably now raises the bar for performance saloon motoring.
> 
> Damian
Click to expand...

Once again, some good points but i was in no way knocking the new M5 which will indeed be an excellent machine, i was just taking to task the crap in the post to which i quoted.

On paper there is nothing performance wise between the new M5 & a standard RS6 according to the statistics, yet the M5 has a 50BHP advantage. Take away that advantage & a tuned RS6 will trounce the new M5 even though thewy have the same power & this again is shown in the stats. If the M5 were then tuned, then it would once again be more powerful & probably gain again to the RS6.

Bottom line is that a standard RS6 should more than hold its own against a new M5 & if both cars were matched on power which a modified RS6 would be, then the RS6 would again take the lead.

All in all i've not driven the new M5 & most have not driven the RS6, so my arguement is only based on experience & statistics.

I'd not say no to a new M5, but i would certainly not trade my RS6 in to get one  8)


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## raven

clived said:


> raven said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well I think it looks awesome and what a spec. However, I wonder how the SMG compares against Audi's (and Porsche's ultimately) DSG? They claim the gear change to be faster than any similar gear box, so that must surely mean the DSG?? But hasn't the SMG got only one clutch?
> 
> 
> 
> Wouldn't this only matter (in the context of this thread) if the RS6 actually had DSG?
Click to expand...

LOL :lol:


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## W7 PMC

clived said:


> raven said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well I think it looks awesome and what a spec. However, I wonder how the SMG compares against Audi's (and Porsche's ultimately) DSG? They claim the gear change to be faster than any similar gear box, so that must surely mean the DSG?? But hasn't the SMG got only one clutch?
> 
> 
> 
> Wouldn't this only matter (in the context of this thread) if the RS6 actually had DSG?
Click to expand...

Tiptronic / DSG, who really cares as its the same (NOT). I reckon the RS6 would have been even sweeter if it had been fitted with DSG, but Audi made noises about the DSG not been able to handle the power of the RS6 (not sure how true this is).

One thing i do know, is the original BMW SMG1 is a dog to use & the most notchy gearchange i've ever had the misfortune to experience, however the SMG2 which i guess the M5 would receive is meant to be an awful lot better.


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## Guest

W7 PMC said:


> Peter Langly said:
> 
> 
> 
> Of course the M5 will leave the RS6 for dead, the Audi is awful on the track compared to the M5.
> 
> TBH, BMW have always been better than Audi.
> 
> Bloody joke when Audi released the V8 S4 to compete with the 6 cylinder M3. :roll:
> 
> 
> 
> Wind your neck in & stop talking $hite.
> 
> Point 1 the old M5 is not even a close match for a standard RS6 on either the road or the track, as its giving away 50BHP & god only knows how much torque along with no 4WD & about the same weight. Just look at the usual figures & they are far enough apart in performance terms.
> 
> Point 2, an RS6 with the same power as the new V10 M5 (aka mine which has around 510BHP) is hardly going to be left for dead, in fact quite the opposite. Yet again just look at the figures. Mine produces 460lbsft of Torque, which i think you'll find is some way ahead of the new M5 & my RS6 can hit 60 in a touch over 4 seconds & keep going to 200MPH, yet the report posted quotes under 5 for the M5 which indicates a sprint time of about 4.7/4.8 seconds which to point out is either the same or .1 second slower than a standard RS6. :lol:
> 
> Mine has been tracked against many supercars including 360 Modenas, 996 & Ruf Turbos along with 996 GT2's & 3's, a variety of TVR's & guess what? it managed to not only compete on sprint, top speed & handling, but it beat all these cars & some by a fairly favourable margin. Point to you, it crucified both the M3 CSL,s.
> 
> Perhaps you know little about cars, hence your brazen statement, but i can assure you that any Audi V8 will more than match up against an M3. Once again just look at the stats.
Click to expand...

Horses for courses......on the Sprint track it's all fairly even.. and the traction of the 4wd Audi would prob' win...

and you have had to modified yours from standard to make it such a machine... pity yours isnt standard !

but I dont recall any overall road test (maybe there are ?) of the standard RS6 beating the standard M5..... and the E55 being up there as well....

who knows what a modified M5 could do ? 
but for brute power I would easily give that vote to the RS6......

but out of the box I'm sure off all of those journalists will vote the M5 as the best sports car again.... assuming they can accept the way it looks....

as for the 8cylinder S4 v 6cylinder M3... 
I would take the S4's engine but use everything else from the M3...


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## W7 PMC

SundeepTT said:


> W7 PMC said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Peter Langly said:
> 
> 
> 
> Of course the M5 will leave the RS6 for dead, the Audi is awful on the track compared to the M5.
> 
> TBH, BMW have always been better than Audi.
> 
> Bloody joke when Audi released the V8 S4 to compete with the 6 cylinder M3. :roll:
> 
> 
> 
> Wind your neck in & stop talking $hite.
> 
> Point 1 the old M5 is not even a close match for a standard RS6 on either the road or the track, as its giving away 50BHP & god only knows how much torque along with no 4WD & about the same weight. Just look at the usual figures & they are far enough apart in performance terms.
> 
> Point 2, an RS6 with the same power as the new V10 M5 (aka mine which has around 510BHP) is hardly going to be left for dead, in fact quite the opposite. Yet again just look at the figures. Mine produces 460lbsft of Torque, which i think you'll find is some way ahead of the new M5 & my RS6 can hit 60 in a touch over 4 seconds & keep going to 200MPH, yet the report posted quotes under 5 for the M5 which indicates a sprint time of about 4.7/4.8 seconds which to point out is either the same or .1 second slower than a standard RS6. :lol:
> 
> Mine has been tracked against many supercars including 360 Modenas, 996 & Ruf Turbos along with 996 GT2's & 3's, a variety of TVR's & guess what? it managed to not only compete on sprint, top speed & handling, but it beat all these cars & some by a fairly favourable margin. Point to you, it crucified both the M3 CSL,s.
> 
> Perhaps you know little about cars, hence your brazen statement, but i can assure you that any Audi V8 will more than match up against an M3. Once again just look at the stats.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Horses for courses......on the Sprint track it's all fairly even.. and the traction of the 4wd Audi would prob' win...
> 
> and you have had to modified yours from standard to make it such a machine... pity yours isnt standard !
> 
> but I dont recall any overall road test (maybe there are ?) of the standard RS6 beating the standard M5..... and the E55 being up there as well....
> 
> who knows what a modified M5 could do ?
> but for brute power I would easily give that vote to the RS6......
> 
> but out of the box I'm sure off all of those journalists will vote the M5 as the best sports car again.... assuming they can accept the way it looks....
> 
> as for the 8cylinder S4 v 6cylinder M3...
> I would take the S4's engine but use everything else from the M3...
Click to expand...

Plenty of those test out their. Just do a search using RS6 & you'll come across quite a few.

I just found a site http://www.fastsaloons.com/index.php & this compares various cars head to head & includes the new M5 along with a modified (MTM) RS6 plus a standard one of course (you can even race them)

Goes some way to prove my point to, as the standard RS6 is way ahead of the current M5 & only .1 sec slower than the new M5  :lol: :lol:


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## scoTTy

Peter Langly said:


> Of course the M5 will leave the RS6 for dead, the Audi is awful on the track compared to the M5.
> 
> TBH, BMW have always been better than Audi.
> 
> Bloody joke when Audi released the V8 S4 to compete with the 6 cylinder M3. :roll:


My heart and brain tells me you're just a forum troll - your 1st post on an Audi site and you're obviously going for a reaction. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt this once. :roll:

The "bloody joke" is actually that Audi didn't launch the S4 to compete with the M3. They are very different cars with different intentions. The fact that the cheaper S4 is often compared with the M3 actually shows it must be doing something right.

Yeah the M3 is faster in the dry in a straight line but I personally live in the South East of the UK which means very varied weather and a lot of bends in the country roads I frequent. If you're happy with the M3, great. I'm happy with the S4. What does that prove apart from we have different tastes.

Actually you're probably one of these trolls who has a BMW316is but thinks you can get some reflected glory from the top models. Ho hum either way thanks for visiting our forum.


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## paulb

Interesting debate, but please remember that 4WD doesn't help *cornering* it helps *traction*.

Ultimately, a 4WD car cannot corner any faster than a 2WD car (assuming the same weight and tyres). The original report talks about lap times at the 'Ring, but people seem to be obsessed with 0-60 times when 'debating'.

4WD will help get off the line (why the RS6 is so quick off the line whilst still being equipped with a slush box torque convertor) but once the cars are rolling, 4WD will only mean that you can get on the power marginally earlier than in the 2WD car.

The M5 is probably lighter (4WD is heavy) so I would reckon that the current M5 would beat the RS6 round a circuit like Donington.

Doesn't make the RS6 a bad car (far from it) and pretty much nothing will beat it in a traffic light grand prix, but BMW's M division are well renowned for making some of the best handling (the best handling?) saloons on the planet. In the hands of an average driver I reckon the RS6 would be quicker than the M5 as Audis tend to be easier to drive fast, but overall I reckon the M would have it...


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## XXMetal

Paul,
I'm sorry but your not comparing like with like. IMHO as PaulB says the M5 would beat the standard RS6 around a track (as I have been a passenger in both around a track, the BMW felt a lot better on the limit and was quicker around the circuit). But if you get into comparing a tuned up RS6 with an M5, then surely in a straight line at least one of the German tuning companies' Merc E Klass would be seen disappearing into the distance.

I've not got anything against the RS6 I think it's a fantasist car, and I would be very happy if I owned one


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## scoTTy

paulb said:


> Interesting debate, but please remember that 4WD doesn't help *cornering* it helps *traction*.
> 
> Ultimately, a 4WD car cannot corner any faster than a 2WD car (assuming the same weight and tyres).


Paul,

Check out anything you can find on "Kamm's circle". Basically (and I'm not doing the research any credit with my description) :

A tyre has a certain limit of grip which is a combination of tractive force (i.e. a lateral force for accelerating or braking) and a cornering force.
If you can remove some of the longitudinal force acting on the tyre then this will give you more capacity for handling lateral forces.
i.e. total force is the resultant force of tractive and cornering force. If the total force is fixed (i.e. the amount of grip) then lowering one of the other two will allow a similar increase in the other one.

By spreading the longitudinal forces (i.e. acceleration) over four wheels instead of two you therefore have better ability to handle lateral forces. i.e. each wheel is handling only 25% of the propulsion instead of 50% giving more scope for increase lateral force.

Whether you agree with Kamm's circle or not it's certainly worth while doing a little reading on it. Audi don't claim that it helps you to corner faster as they sell quattro as a safety feature. They instead claim that "this produces greater safety reserves at the limit compared with conventional types of drive."

I'm not blinded by corporate spiel so if anyone can explain why this isn't the case then I'm open minded enough to listen.


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## teucer2000

I would have thought the fact that all the world's top rally cars have four wheel drive was more relevant to a discussion about speed. I'd take the RS6 over an M5 anyday........one can but dream :?


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## raven

teucer2000 said:


> I would have thought the fact that all the world's top rally cars have four wheel drive was more relevant to a discussion about speed. I'd take the RS6 over an M5 anyday........one can but dream :?


By the same token, you could say that F1 cars have rear wheel drive only.... Don't know about you, but I spend more time driving on tarmac than on dirt tracks... :roll:


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## W7 PMC

I can totally see both sides of the arguement, however i still stand by my original statement in the fact that a standard RS6 will outperform a current M5 on both the track & the road. It has more power so an obvious advantage & only carries a very small amount of additional weight over the current M5. It has the benefit of Quattro & although i'm not for one moment saying that everything about an RS6 is better than an M5, i am saying it would not be beaten, although the RS6 win would not be by a hugely significant margin.

The new M5 would stay ahead of a standard RS6 by a small margin, but would not beat a modified RS6 & only one that was modified to have a similar power output to the new M5. The statistics show this & again the weight advantage of the new M5 over the modified RS6 is only about 100kg, but the torque advantage in the RS6 gives it a better sprint time up to silly speeds. On a track it would be very close though, as the weight would have a factor in handling, but the difference in real world track or road would be very very small & could in my opinion go either way depending on the size of the drivers balls 

Please also remember that 99.99% of these cars life will be spent on roads & not tracks, so in the real world on real roads a standard RS6 would beat the current M5 & would probably be pipped at the post by the new M5. A modified RS6 would probably stay ahead of a new M5 but it would be close.

Thats me done for the day & everyone is of course entitled to their own opinion, but in my arguement i only state factual statistics & my own experiences.

Ps. I totally agree with ScoTTy on the S4 / M3 point, in that they are very different cars & i know where i'd rather park my arse for a drive & its 4 rings if choosing between these cars 8)


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## jampott

Personally, I wouldn't want ANY car that, if painted red, needed a conductor


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## r1

scoTTy said:


> paulb said:
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting debate, but please remember that 4WD doesn't help *cornering* it helps *traction*.
> 
> Ultimately, a 4WD car cannot corner any faster than a 2WD car (assuming the same weight and tyres).
> 
> 
> 
> Paul,
> 
> Check out anything you can find on "Kamm's circle". Basically (and I'm not doing the research any credit with my description) :
> 
> A tyre has a certain limit of grip which is a combination of tractive force (i.e. a lateral force for accelerating or braking) and a cornering force.
> If you can remove some of the longitudinal force acting on the tyre then this will give you more capacity for handling lateral forces.
> i.e. total force is the resultant force of tractive and cornering force. If the total force is fixed (i.e. the amount of grip) then lowering one of the other two will allow a similar increase in the other one.
> 
> By spreading the longitudinal forces (i.e. acceleration) over four wheels instead of two you therefore have better ability to handle lateral forces. i.e. each wheel is handling only 25% of the propulsion instead of 50% giving more scope for increase lateral force.
> 
> Whether you agree with Kamm's circle or not it's certainly worth while doing a little reading on it. Audi don't claim that it helps you to corner faster as they sell quattro as a safety feature. They instead claim that "this produces greater safety reserves at the limit compared with conventional types of drive."
> 
> I'm not blinded by corporate spiel so if anyone can explain why this isn't the case then I'm open minded enough to listen.
Click to expand...

Sounds good. The only aspect that is missed here is the marked increase in lateral forces caused by the increase in weight of the 4wd system. Quite how 'marked' that difference is can be debated though....back to the F1 cars. :?


----------



## Guest

scoTTy said:


> paulb said:
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting debate, but please remember that 4WD doesn't help *cornering* it helps *traction*.
> 
> Ultimately, a 4WD car cannot corner any faster than a 2WD car (assuming the same weight and tyres).
> 
> 
> 
> Paul,
> 
> Check out anything you can find on "Kamm's circle". Basically (and I'm not doing the research any credit with my description) :
> 
> A tyre has a certain limit of grip which is a combination of tractive force (i.e. a lateral force for accelerating or braking) and a cornering force.
> If you can remove some of the longitudinal force acting on the tyre then this will give you more capacity for handling lateral forces.
> i.e. total force is the resultant force of tractive and cornering force. If the total force is fixed (i.e. the amount of grip) then lowering one of the other two will allow a similar increase in the other one.
> 
> By spreading the longitudinal forces (i.e. acceleration) over four wheels instead of two you therefore have better ability to handle lateral forces. i.e. each wheel is handling only 25% of the propulsion instead of 50% giving more scope for increase lateral force.
> 
> Whether you agree with Kamm's circle or not it's certainly worth while doing a little reading on it. Audi don't claim that it helps you to corner faster as they sell quattro as a safety feature. They instead claim that "this produces greater safety reserves at the limit compared with conventional types of drive."
> 
> I'm not blinded by corporate spiel so if anyone can explain why this isn't the case then I'm open minded enough to listen.
Click to expand...

tail pipe exhaust leak again ?

anyway love that reason.. perfect for the insurance report when I have a hedge attracting oversteer moment in my 993 !


----------



## garyc

scoTTy said:


> They are comparing slush box with slush box.


There's no torque converter in either. :?:


----------



## garyc

snaxo said:


> himpe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> W7 PMC said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Peter Langly said:
> 
> 
> 
> Of course the M5 will leave the RS6 for dead, the Audi is awful on the track compared to the M5.
> 
> TBH, BMW have always been better than Audi.
> 
> Bloody joke when Audi released the V8 S4 to compete with the 6 cylinder M3. :roll:
> 
> 
> 
> Wind your neck in & stop talking $hite.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think we hit a nerv here [smiley=argue.gif]
> 
> :lol:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I love the RS6 - however, compared to all other aspects of the car, aren't they supposed to be a bit average (in standard form anyway) on the handling front? Also they suffer the Audi 'numb' steering problem.
> 
> EVO have a review of the RS6+ this month and says its fab mostly but the steering is still crap. It's a lot of dough (66k?) but apparently worth the extra over the standard RS6.
> 
> Point here is also Paul that the new M5 is standard. It's all very well comparing it to a modified RS - but then what happens when you take the BM to the tuning clinic as well - you can go on forever.
> 
> Whether you are an Audi or BMW bigot (I find this whole rivalry hilarious - I go for whichever is the better car!) the new M5 is an awesome machine in standard form - and probably now raises the bar for performance saloon motoring.
> 
> Damian
Click to expand...




snaxo said:


> himpe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> W7 PMC said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Peter Langly said:
> 
> 
> 
> Of course the M5 will leave the RS6 for dead, the Audi is awful on the track compared to the M5.
> 
> TBH, BMW have always been better than Audi.
> 
> Bloody joke when Audi released the V8 S4 to compete with the 6 cylinder M3. :roll:
> 
> 
> 
> Wind your neck in & stop talking $hite.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think we hit a nerv here [smiley=argue.gif]
> 
> :lol:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I love the RS6 - however, compared to all other aspects of the car, aren't they supposed to be a bit average (in standard form anyway) on the handling front? Also they suffer the Audi 'numb' steering problem.
> 
> EVO have a review of the RS6+ this month and says its fab mostly but the steering is still crap. It's a lot of dough (66k?) but apparently worth the extra over the standard RS6.
> 
> Point here is also Paul that the new M5 is standard. It's all very well comparing it to a modified RS - but then what happens when you take the BM to the tuning clinic as well - you can go on forever.
> 
> Whether you are an Audi or BMW bigot (I find this whole rivalry hilarious - I go for whichever is the better car!) the new M5 is an awesome machine in standard form - and probably now raises the bar for performance saloon motoring.
> 
> Damian
Click to expand...

Well said Damian,

Why are those most vehement against BMW (or Audi) seemingly those with little or no experinece of owning/driving the cars they berate/gush over? :wink:

It is not either/or Audi/BMW.

I have driven an RS6 and owned an RS4 - both perform broadly similarly against the clock 0-60 4 and a bit or a tad; 0-100 10-11ish; 0-125 17ish. Of course the RS6 has the capacity advantage, but with the weight disadvantage and sapping slush box, things even up. Both tested at the Ring in low 8 mins 15-20 secs ish. So quite similar. (Paul - before you correct me - I said 'broadly' :wink: )

You are not going to be left for dead by very much at all in a straight line drag.

I had quite a serious dabble with an old M5 (in the RS4) and can confirm that it is very close on the road, even having torque traction advantages.

I then had an M3, which although not as muscular, more than made up for relative lack of torque with superior grip and controllability. And for the quattro facists, IT HAD AS MUCH WET GRIP AS THE RS4. I preferred the RS4 anyway. Anyway this wasn't about RS4s but it is my point of reference for 'fast'.

FACT: I have had Audis and BMWs. I am ambivelent unlike some.... BMWs generally have always had the better chassis. But that doesn't really matter for most road driving since you are going to be travelling at silly speeds to find out 'limits'.

The new M5 has an amazing spec. 500+ hp and 8,000+ rpm out of 5 litres in an unblown volume production car is impressive. It looks to be a couple of secs faster to 125 than the RS6. So what? It will probably out handle and out brake it too. More significant. It's probably going to lap the Ring approx 10-20 secs faster than the RS6 - far more significant - in track terms that is 'left for dead'.

On the road, the torque delivery of the RS6 will pay (as will the 7 speed M5 gears), but there won't be anything in it for sane drivers. It will come down to the more intangables - steering quality, brakes feel, chassis balance, mechanical 'oneness'. Based on other M cars, I would not expect the new M5 to disappoint.

So left for dead -I doubt it. Raising the ante in terms of overall performance and being a balanced package - I wouldn't put any money on the RS6 against Munch's finest.

Unless straight line drag racing is your thang. :wink:


----------



## W7 PMC

I've taken on all points (apart from Tim's which i did not understand  :wink: ) & will concede to a draw. My original response was scewed due to the $hite of the RS6 is crap & M5 would leave for dead post.

Virtually no car in production is going to leave an RS6 for dead & a modified RS6 even less chance. How many cars on the road have 515BHP+ & 460lbsft?

I have always loved M5's both the previous incarnation, current model & i've no doubt the new one will be amazing. I will for sure try to get a decent test drive in one when they are launched & can comment better then, but for now i'm more than happy & as my car has embarassed Modenas, RUF's & 996 Turbos on the track, the new M5 is not worrying me to much just yet 8) :lol:  :roll:


----------



## jampott

W7 PMC said:


> I've taken on all points (apart from Tim's which i did not understand  :wink: ) & will concede to a draw. My original response was scewed due to the $hite of the RS6 is crap & M5 would leave for dead post.
> 
> Virtually no car in production is going to leave an RS6 for dead & a modified RS6 even less chance. How many cars on the road have 515BHP+ & 460lbsft?
> 
> I have always loved M5's both the previous incarnation, current model & i've no doubt the new one will be amazing. I will for sure try to get a decent test drive in one when they are launched & can comment better then, but for now i'm more than happy & as my car has embarassed Modenas, RUF's & 996 Turbos on the track, the new M5 is not worrying me to much just yet 8) :lol:  :roll:


It was a reference even you simple Northerners could understand... honestly. YOUR CAR IS AS BIG AS A BUS.

A

BUS

Is that clear enough?


----------



## jampott

In TTotal style...


----------



## snaxo

I got you first time Tim :wink: I chose to ignore it then but for arguements sake (  ) are you saying that if you were given the option of swapping your 350Z for an RS6 or new M5 (with the proviso that you weren't allowed to sell it for at least 1 year) you'd turn it down?

Give me a break ... :lol:

Damian


----------



## jampott

snaxo said:


> I got you first time Tim :wink: I chose to ignore it then but for arguements sake (  ) are you saying that if you were given the option of swapping your 350Z for an RS6 or new M5 (with the proviso that you weren't allowed to sell it for at least 1 year) you'd turn it down?
> 
> Give me a break ... :lol:
> 
> Damian


I'm not saying I wouldn't SWAP. That'd be quite a cool option 

But I'm content with an ickle 2 seater, and have no need for something quite so large, so I wouldn't go out and buy one. Nope...

I'd spend my Â£60k+ on another sportscar instead, thanks.


----------



## snaxo

Yep, I'm with you on that....

I'd be saving 5k for the new Carrera 4s (or beg, borrowing / stealing to get the 15k for the AMV8!)

Damian


----------



## jampott

snaxo said:


> Yep, I'm with you on that....
> 
> I'd be saving 5k for the new Carrera 4s (or beg, borrowing / stealing to get the 15k for the AMV8!)
> 
> Damian


Well there's your answer then!!


----------



## garyc

Â£5K for a 997? Â£15K for an AM?

Cool. I'll take one of each. :wink:


----------



## snaxo

LOL - if only!

Damian


----------



## garyc

Gotcha. That's a Â£5K _premium_ over the Â£60K M5. 

On anothet note, do many people consider either a steroidal saloon (RS6, AMG e55 etc) OR a sports coupe (997 etc)?

I reckon most people in that economic bracket would have both - or an Cayenne, X5, Range Rover alternative?


----------



## jampott

garyc said:


> Gotcha. That's a Â£5K _premium_ over the Â£60K M5.
> 
> On anothet note, do many people consider either a steroidal saloon (RS6, AMG e55 etc) OR a sports coupe (997 etc)?
> 
> I reckon most people in that economic bracket would have both - or an Cayenne, X5, Range Rover alternative?


I guess so... but that may only be true of 2 car "families" - is it likely that a single person would buy both?


----------



## W7 PMC

jampott said:


> garyc said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gotcha. That's a Â£5K _premium_ over the Â£60K M5.
> 
> On anothet note, do many people consider either a steroidal saloon (RS6, AMG e55 etc) OR a sports coupe (997 etc)?
> 
> I reckon most people in that economic bracket would have both - or an Cayenne, X5, Range Rover alternative?
> 
> 
> 
> I guess so... but that may only be true of 2 car "families" - is it likely that a single person would buy both?
Click to expand...

Thanks for the BUS quirk  :wink:

I bought the RS6 (although S8 first) to get away from owning & running multiple vehicles (TTC225, Mondy V6 & Kwak ZX12R). My goal was to combine the fun of the TT, practicality of the Mondy & shear excitement of the Kwak in a single vehicle & the RS6 has provided all of the above.

The missus has a new Passat TDI as a company car, so thats used for very general transportation, lugging stuff around & those no fun long distance trawls & as the car is free, we may as well pile the miles on that


----------



## garyc

jampott said:


> garyc said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gotcha. That's a Â£5K _premium_ over the Â£60K M5.
> 
> On anothet note, do many people consider either a steroidal saloon (RS6, AMG e55 etc) OR a sports coupe (997 etc)?
> 
> I reckon most people in that economic bracket would have both - or an Cayenne, X5, Range Rover alternative?
> 
> 
> 
> I guess so... but that may only be true of 2 car "families" - is it likely that a single person would buy both?
Click to expand...

Well a single person wouldn't really need an estate. Although I wnet from the TT to RS4 whilst single. 

Agree, but my point was that folk who think nothing of running a Â£60K car, and are into their motors, may well afford themselves a 'fun' carand a practical car.

For a single person, a Porsche makes perfect sense. You can hire a van to move stuff...

And no, I don't believe in one car for all purposes. A big estate or heavy saloon is never going to handle ans track as well as a lithe and small proper sports coupe. Likewise you don't really want to have to do lots long motorway hauls in a harsh sports car with relatively high NVH and low comfort levels plus usually a limited cruising range.

The reality is for most of us, is that we have to compromise with our vehicle choices, and when we do so we trade off the various qualities for the ones we want for our-sort-of-motoring.

But I would say the target market for the RS6s of this world probably is for monied people (JK, Nick Mason etc) who value discretion and do have other cars.


----------



## scoTTy

garyc said:


> On anothet note, do many people consider either a steroidal saloon (RS6, AMG e55 etc) OR a sports coupe (997 etc)?
> 
> I reckon most people in that economic bracket would have both - or an Cayenne, X5, Range Rover alternative?


Gotta disagree. I could buy one or the other but certainly not both. I may yet decide to go down the 911 route but if I did it certainly doesn't mean that I could run an RS6 along side it. Many people strive for a certain car, particularly it seems 911's. You can't judge a persons economic bracket simply fro mthe car they drive. One guy might have scrimped, given up holidays, etc, etc whilst another it's just a toy in his fleet.

This is my number 1 pet peave when people assume your flush with cash based on the car you drive. If someone buys a big house and runs a mondeo for example nothings said, but it someone buys a new 911 then they are suddenly loaded regardless of any real information.

Sorry going off topic...and almost in the the flame room! :roll:


----------



## garyc

scoTTy said:


> garyc said:
> 
> 
> 
> On anothet note, do many people consider either a steroidal saloon (RS6, AMG e55 etc) OR a sports coupe (997 etc)?
> 
> I reckon most people in that economic bracket would have both - or an Cayenne, X5, Range Rover alternative?
> 
> 
> 
> Gotta disagree. I could buy one or the other but certainly not both. I may yet decide to go down the 911 route but if I did it certainly doesn't mean that I could run an RS6 along side it. Many people strive for a certain car, particularly it seems 911's. You can't judge a persons economic bracket simply fro mthe car they drive. One guy might have scrimped, given up holidays, etc, etc whilst another it's just a toy in his fleet.
> 
> This is my number 1 pet peave when people assume your flush with cash based on the car you drive. If someone buys a big house and runs a mondeo for example nothings said, but it someone buys a new 911 then they are suddenly loaded regardless of any real information.
> 
> Sorry going off topic...and almost in the the flame room! :roll:
Click to expand...

That was the point Paul, most _enthusiasts_ will run a car beyond their means (or trade off food, holidays etc). That includes most people around here. Solid middle class aspirational stuff - and I don't exclude myself. The comments were directed at the type of customers who are the most common profile buyers of those type of car.

But enthusiasts like you and I just do not make up the majority markets for Â£60K cars - they are bought in the main by monied folk who _can_ afford the crazy dep'n and do have other cars, a second home, multiple holidays, Rolex, nannies, privately educated kids and so on etc. Take a look around.

Plus it is somewhat incongruous having a fast-depreciating Â£60K car parked outside a Â£200K Bovis estate home.

I just spoke to one our HP marketing analaysts who dug out some profiling research for premium products (by Grey?) suggesting amongst that people who drive Â£50K cars tend to live in houses worth in excess of Â£400K (2002 study), have a household income of over Â£120K a year, one or more expensive hobbies (Golf, sailing etc) and a whole lot of other stuff. Now it's only research, but it makes sense. To these folk, it's just another car, albeit a nice one, that fits in with the general balance of their material lives.

Not that enthusiasts are excluded...


----------



## scoTTy

I'm obviously mixing in the wrong circles! :roll: :wink:


----------



## Guest

scoTTy said:


> garyc said:
> 
> 
> 
> On anothet note, do many people consider either a steroidal saloon (RS6, AMG e55 etc) OR a sports coupe (997 etc)?
> 
> I reckon most people in that economic bracket would have both - or an Cayenne, X5, Range Rover alternative?
> 
> 
> 
> Gotta disagree. I could buy one or the other but certainly not both. I may yet decide to go down the 911 route but if I did it certainly doesn't mean that I could run an RS6 along side it. Many people strive for a certain car, particularly it seems 911's. You can't judge a persons economic bracket simply fro mthe car they drive. One guy might have scrimped, given up holidays, etc, etc whilst another it's just a toy in his fleet.
> 
> This is my number 1 pet peave when people assume your flush with cash based on the car you drive. If someone buys a big house and runs a mondeo for example nothings said, but it someone buys a new 911 then they are suddenly loaded regardless of any real information.
> 
> Sorry going off topic...and almost in the the flame room! :roll:
Click to expand...

and i'm proof of that .. getting a 911 and you know I ain't loaded !


----------



## scoTTy

You must be. You're buying a 911! :roll:

This means that you can afford rediculous insurnace premiums, your paid way too much, if it gets scratched it doesn't matter coz you can have it repainted, you don't care how much filling with petrol costs, you have a big house, etc, etc, etc

Just a selection of the things I was told when I bought the TT....and then the S4. :x


----------



## Kell

I assume Gary's point was about people who buy new cars rather than second-Hand.

I would also have siad that the majority of buyers for new RS6s would be those that have other cars in their garage(s) - though I do understand Paul's reasons for going that route.

From the features in the Audi mag, RS6 owners are people like Davina McCall and JK. Though they are both rich, (JK probably more so), their profiles as drivers coudn't be further apart.

It was interesting to read in an edition of Octane that JK's recent purchase of a very rare Masser (can't remember model name now, but one of only two left) left his accountant gasping. Mind you at (IIRC) something like Â£330,000, it's hardly surprising.


----------



## Kell

Oh and besides, the RS6 will be due for a new incarnation soon, so will we all be saying 'new RS6 leaves M5 for dead' in a year or so and opening up a whole new can of worms.


----------



## Guest

Kell said:


> Oh and besides, the RS6 will be due for a new incarnation soon, so will we all be saying 'new RS6 leaves M5 for dead' in a year or so and opening up a whole new can of worms.


although according the press .. when the new RS6 came out it was unable to leave the OLD M5 for dead ! matched it well......

as I recall the 'overall press world' ultimately use out & out handling where the M5 was the king.... as fast as the RS6 was (if not faster than the M5) it just wasnt enough to depose the M5 from the king of saloons....

so if the RS6 and current M5 are a match then I wonder if the new 7 speed 500bhp M5 will leave the current RS6 for dead !

cant wait for the NEW RS6 from the new A6 range... and IIRC Audi are speeding up the intro of the RS ranges.. rather than leaving them till last ! should be 'interesting' as the new A6 is trying to address the lack of sportiness of the old A6 range !


----------



## garyc

SundeepTT said:


> Kell said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh and besides, the RS6 will be due for a new incarnation soon, so will we all be saying 'new RS6 leaves M5 for dead' in a year or so and opening up a whole new can of worms.
> 
> 
> 
> although according the press .. when the new RS6 came out it was unable to leave the OLD M5 for dead ! matched it well......
> 
> as I recall the 'overall press world' ultimately use out & out handling where the M5 was the king.... as fast as the RS6 was (if not faster than the M5) it just wasnt enough to depose the M5 from the king of saloons....
> 
> so if the RS6 and current M5 are a match then I wonder if the new 7 speed 500bhp M5 will leave the current RS6 for dead !
> 
> cant wait for the NEW RS6 from the new A6 range... and IIRC Audi are speeding up the intro of the RS ranges.. rather than leaving them till last ! should be 'interesting' as the new A6 is trying to address the lack of sportiness of the old A6 range !
Click to expand...

So how's the Porker going? It looks nice. Classy and timeless. Any 'moments'?


----------



## scoTTy

Kell said:


> I assume Gary's point was about people who buy new cars rather than second-Hand.


True but all the comments I've had have been made by people who don't know and TBH don't care if it's new or second hand.

When some scumbag keys a car and think "they can afford it" they don't consider anything.

I guess all I was trying to say is people shouldn't be judged by their cars, propery, possessions etc.


----------



## garyc

scoTTy said:


> Kell said:
> 
> 
> 
> I assume Gary's point was about people who buy new cars rather than second-Hand.
> 
> 
> 
> I guess all I was trying to say is people shouldn't be judged by their cars, propery, possessions etc.
Click to expand...

Like we all do the chavs and pikeys? It's unavoidable human nature but regrettable that we all do tend to make judgements about others on basis of points you raise above.

Me, I am tarred with the stigma of being a BMW driver. But I have had conselling and can cope with it better these days.


----------



## Kell

SundeepTT said:


> cant wait for the NEW RS6 from the new A6 range... and IIRC Audi are speeding up the intro of the RS ranges.. rather than leaving them till last ! should be 'interesting' as the new A6 is trying to address the lack of sportiness of the old A6 range !


That's what I meant when I said the new RS6 - the new basking shark one, if and when it appears.

If we're comparing the new M5 with the current RS6 and saying that it beats it, then what will we be saying when the new RS6 comes out? They look like they are using each other as the benchmark to leapfrog with the launch of a new model.


----------



## Guest

garyc said:


> So how's the Porker going? It looks nice. Classy and timeless. Any 'moments'?


to be picked up next friday....... from southern germany.. so enough autobahns between me and home to test out the 171mph top speed 8)

and I intend to.. that's about 275kph with prob' +10% 300kph on the speedo !


----------



## garyc

SundeepTT said:


> garyc said:
> 
> 
> 
> So how's the Porker going? It looks nice. Classy and timeless. Any 'moments'?
> 
> 
> 
> to be picked up next friday....... from southern germany.. so enough autobahns between me and home to test out the 171mph top speed 8)
> 
> and I intend to.. that's about 275kph with prob' +10% 300kph on the speedo !
Click to expand...

Nice one. Be sure to check your tyres for any damage/sidwall bulges and the pressures before going for max velocity


----------



## Guest

no kidding ! :wink:

i'll prob just keep doing hard accelerations for 600 miles or so just to hear the cry from the air cooled beast ! 8)


----------



## Carlos

Came across this thread while doing a search for something else.

If you can be arsed, some amusing comments to be found.


----------



## Lisa.

Why did Sundeep have his user ID deleted?

Was it to do with a track day when he was wearing his "I'm the Stig" t-shirt?


----------



## BAMTT

Lisa. said:


> Why did Sundeep have his user ID deleted?
> 
> Was it to do with a track day when he was wearing his "I'm the Stig" t-shirt?


Something to do with being quoted as being better then the average TT driver or similiar on another forum :?


----------



## NaughTTy

Lisa. said:


> Why did Sundeep have his user ID deleted?
> 
> Was it to do with a track day when he was wearing his "I'm the Stig" t-shirt?


More than likely Lisa - didn't he start slagging off TT Forum folk and all those there on that day were "lesser cars". He was the only one driving a proper sports car and gave out bucket loads of his ever-so-experienced track knowledge so that we would all bow to his superior knowledge :roll: :?


----------



## W7 PMC

That's funny :lol: :lol:


----------



## mighTy Tee

Lisa. said:


> Why did Sundeep have his user ID deleted?
> 
> Was it to do with a track day when he was wearing his "I'm the Stig" t-shirt?


He was found to have quoted about TT drivers (using my lift around Combe as the main example) something like not driving hard enough, changing gear and not wearing driving gloves or such like.

I was bitterly disappointed with Sundeep's :? comments as I did not take the track too seriously and really didnt care if I was (one of) the slowest on the track.


----------



## mighTy Tee

Found it

http://www.********.co.uk/ttforumbbs/vi ... highlight=


----------



## b3ves

NaughTTy said:


> Lisa. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why did Sundeep have his user ID deleted?
> 
> Was it to do with a track day when he was wearing his "I'm the Stig" t-shirt?
> 
> 
> 
> More than likely Lisa - didn't he start slagging off TT Forum folk and all those there on that day were "lesser cars". He was the only one driving a proper sports car and gave out bucket loads of his ever-so-experienced track knowledge so that we would all bow to his superior knowledge :roll: :?
Click to expand...

I'd be careful when listening to his superior knowledge. The last time I saw his car was at Spa in May when he was busy increasing the Duck Products share price after having lost an argument with some armco on the motorway


----------



## garyc

Didn't Sundeep de-register from here as a token of hari kari for besmirching the good name of TT drivers?

On topic, I guess we all now know that the new M5 (the one with the best engine in the world) _will_ leave the old RS6 for dead at the track as well as leave many a Gallardo at the runway.

The comparison that I am waiting for is for the new M3 against the new RS4.

BMW product planners must have a real headache ensuring that the next M3 is faster and handles better than the Audi, whilst not embarassing the more exepnsive V10 M5 on the road.


----------



## b3ves

Carlos said:


> Came across this thread while doing a search for something else.
> 
> If you can be arsed, some amusing comments to be found.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_provocateur


----------



## TTwiggy

ah, how opions change....

Jampott 'wouldn't swap his sportscar for a "bus"'

and W7PMC isn't 'worried about an M5'

:lol:


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## garyc

TTwiggy said:


> ah, how opions change....
> 
> Jampott 'wouldn't swap his sportscar for a "bus"'
> 
> and W7PMC isn't 'worried about an M5'
> 
> :lol:


...and I'm driving a f**king Volvo with a kid on the way. :lol:


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## TTwiggy

garyc said:


> TTwiggy said:
> 
> 
> 
> ah, how opions change....
> 
> Jampott 'wouldn't swap his sportscar for a "bus"'
> 
> and W7PMC isn't 'worried about an M5'
> 
> :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> ...and I'm driving a f**king Volvo with a kid on the way. :lol:
Click to expand...

you or the Volvo? :wink:


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## garyc

TTwiggy said:


> garyc said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TTwiggy said:
> 
> 
> 
> ah, how opions change....
> 
> Jampott 'wouldn't swap his sportscar for a "bus"'
> 
> and W7PMC isn't 'worried about an M5'
> 
> :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> ...and I'm driving a f**king Volvo with a kid on the way. :lol:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> you or the Volvo? :wink:
Click to expand...

Well i havn't shagged it. :wink:

Although I have f**ked a few cars in my time. :lol:

Got made redundant (fired) one time by a shitty company who made mistake of letting my have the co car over night. So drove my company Vectra V6 in first gear flat out against the rev limiter for 55 miles up the M5 to Stroud. Got very hot! and I had already drained out some oil in a washing bowl before. I didn't break  So I did repeated full rev 1st gear clutch dump racing starts. Still didn't flinch. So I did repeated hill starts in 3rd and 4th. Got clutch nicely fried and slipping.  I wacked a few kerbs hard on way into office car park and threw the keys at reception. taxi was already waiting.

Tuff cars those Vectras. Ah, the good old days.


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## W7 PMC

garyc said:


> Didn't Sundeep de-register from here as a token of hari kari for besmirching the good name of TT drivers?
> 
> On topic, I guess we all now know that the new M5 (the one with the best engine in the world) _will_ leave the old RS6 for dead at the track as well as leave many a Gallardo at the runway.
> 
> The comparison that I am waiting for is for the new M3 against the new RS4.
> 
> BMW product planners must have a real headache ensuring that the next M3 is faster and handles better than the Audi, whilst not embarassing the more exepnsive V10 M5 on the road.


Gary, i'd not be surprised if the new M3 did not embarass the M5. In a drag race the M5 would win as it would still be running with an extra 100BHP, but if the new M3 is as good as the rumours are suggesting, the M5 would more than struggle to keep up on track & on the back roads. If they bring out a CSL version then the M5 would get crucified As it can't manage a current M3CSL in such situations.

Without knocking the current RS4 as i think they're awesome, i'd have no doubt that the new M3 will be the winner in all but very wet/low traction conditions.


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## W7 PMC

TTwiggy said:


> ah, how opions change....
> 
> Jampott 'wouldn't swap his sportscar for a "bus"'
> 
> and W7PMC isn't 'worried about an M5'
> 
> :lol:


The way of the world. It would be a boring place if we all never changed our minds.

Although my point early in this thread regarding RS6 vs M5 is ever so accurate. I ran against the 1st DMS M5 at VMAX last year (driven by DMS's owner) several times in my as then very tuned RS6 & the cars where matched performance wise in every way (standing start, rolling start & max speed).

Power on both cars was within 5BHP, but my RS6 at the time had close to 150lbsft of torque advantage so a standard RS6 vs a standard M5, the M5 would walk away but against a tuned RS6 they would be well matched.

Bear in mind, the E60 M5 had not even been launched when this thread started. Specs had been announced by BMW but none had even been produced. Having driven & owned both cars, my current stead is the one i prefer for more reasons than just performance.


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## kmpowell

b3ves said:


> NaughTTy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lisa. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why did Sundeep have his user ID deleted?
> 
> Was it to do with a track day when he was wearing his "I'm the Stig" t-shirt?
> 
> 
> 
> More than likely Lisa - didn't he start slagging off TT Forum folk and all those there on that day were "lesser cars". He was the only one driving a proper sports car and gave out bucket loads of his ever-so-experienced track knowledge so that we would all bow to his superior knowledge :roll: :?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'd be careful when listening to his superior knowledge. The last time I saw his car was at Spa in May when he was busy increasing the Duck Products share price after having lost an argument with some armco on the motorway
Click to expand...


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## b3ves

W7 PMC said:


> I ran against the 1st DMS M5 at VMAX last year (driven by DMS's owner) several times in my as then very tuned RS6 & the cars where matched performance wise in every way (standing start, rolling start & max speed).
> 
> Power on both cars was within 5BHP, but my RS6 at the time had close to 150lbsft of torque advantage so a standard RS6 vs a standard M5, the M5 would walk away but against a tuned RS6 they would be well matched.


Aren't these 2 statements contradictory? On the one hand you're saying that your tuned RS6 was a performance match in every way against a tuned M5, then you go on to say that a standard M5 would be well matched against a tuned RS6.

Which is it - or am I reading it wrong? Or is the key word 'very' when it comes to how tuned the RS6 needs to be?


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## scoTTy

I think the comment is meant to say :

RS6 + chip + cats + exhaust + all the other stuff was the equal of 
M5 +chip.

Therefore the RS6 was only even with it due to all the extras on top of the chip which would make sense that of the standard models the M5 would win.


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## b3ves

scoTTy said:


> I think the comment is meant to say :
> 
> RS6 + chip + cats + exhaust + all the other stuff was the equal of
> M5 +chip.
> 
> Therefore the RS6 was only even with it due to all the extras on top of the chip which would make sense that of the standard models the M5 would win.


Surely the forced induction engine of the RS6 is more tuneable than the normally aspirated M5? I took a quick look at AmD's website and a remap adds 50bhp & 50lb/ft whereas spending another Â£3K on the stuff Paul had only nets an additional 20bhp & 20lb/ft.

I'd be interested to know how a stage 1 RS6 would fare against a remapped M5. Truth be known, I quite fancy the RS6 Avant


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## genocidalduck

W7 PMC said:


> garyc said:
> 
> 
> 
> Didn't Sundeep de-register from here as a token of hari kari for besmirching the good name of TT drivers?
> 
> On topic, I guess we all now know that the new M5 (the one with the best engine in the world) _will_ leave the old RS6 for dead at the track as well as leave many a Gallardo at the runway.
> 
> The comparison that I am waiting for is for the new M3 against the new RS4.
> 
> BMW product planners must have a real headache ensuring that the next M3 is faster and handles better than the Audi, whilst not embarassing the more exepnsive V10 M5 on the road.
> 
> 
> 
> Gary, i'd not be surprised if the new M3 did not embarass the M5. In a drag race the M5 would win as it would still be running with an extra 100BHP, but if the new M3 is as good as the rumours are suggesting, the M5 would more than struggle to keep up on track & on the back roads. If they bring out a CSL version then the M5 would get crucified As it can't manage a current M3CSL in such situations.
> 
> Without knocking the current RS4 as i think they're awesome, i'd have no doubt that the new M3 will be the winner in all but very wet/low traction conditions.
Click to expand...

Unless BMW make a complete pigs ear off it i think they are in a win win situation anyway. If it's better than the RS4 they can brag about it and still say they are the best at what they do. But if it falls short. I can imagin they will claim that the M3 isnt a direct comparison to the RS4. However the S4 is. If it's worse than the S4 they are fooked.


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## scoTTy

b3ves said:


> Surely the forced induction engine of the RS6 is more tuneable than the normally aspirated M5? I took a quick look at AmD's website and a remap adds 50bhp & 50lb/ft whereas spending another Â£3K on the stuff Paul had only nets an additional 20bhp & 20lb/ft.
> 
> I'd be interested to know how a stage 1 RS6 would fare against a remapped M5. Truth be known, I quite fancy the RS6 Avant


Good point. I fogot about the turbos!  I was just thing about V8 vs V10.


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## jampott

kmpowell said:


> b3ves said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NaughTTy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lisa. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why did Sundeep have his user ID deleted?
> 
> Was it to do with a track day when he was wearing his "I'm the Stig" t-shirt?
> 
> 
> 
> More than likely Lisa - didn't he start slagging off TT Forum folk and all those there on that day were "lesser cars". He was the only one driving a proper sports car and gave out bucket loads of his ever-so-experienced track knowledge so that we would all bow to his superior knowledge :roll: :?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'd be careful when listening to his superior knowledge. The last time I saw his car was at Spa in May when he was busy increasing the Duck Products share price after having lost an argument with some armco on the motorway
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Thanks for that Kev - I honestly think that's the funniest thing I've seen on here all year. :lol:

It look so chavvy all taped up


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## gcp

scoTTy said:


> Awesome bit of kit.
> 
> 8minutes for a lap. I wonder when they'll change the ring taxis for these.
> 
> I'm seriously thinking of booking now so that when I get to the front of the list in a years time it will definately be in one of these. 8)


I have a ticket, just need to book a slot, plenty free in October this year. Booking the ticket was the difficult bit.


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## Carlos

kmpowell said:


>


Notwithstanding the fact that Sundeep is no longer flavour of the month on here with some folk, obviously he isn't here to comment on this or offer his opinion.

I can only imagine what your response would be if someone had posted a pic of your damaged TVR without your permission. However I can remember your actual response when I even dared to mention that it had been damaged...

I suggest removal of the image _tout de suite_. Do unto others etc...


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## Stu-Oxfordshire

b3ves said:


> The last time I saw his car was at Spa in May when he was busy increasing the Duck Products share price after having lost an argument with some armco on the motorway


_
"The nurburgring....? sorry what is that? .....a circuit? really? no i didn't realise I wasn't insured there.....no no well even if it is I've never even heard of the place....no no this happened on a MO - TOR - WAY...."_

:lol:


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## W7 PMC

b3ves said:


> scoTTy said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think the comment is meant to say :
> 
> RS6 + chip + cats + exhaust + all the other stuff was the equal of
> M5 +chip.
> 
> Therefore the RS6 was only even with it due to all the extras on top of the chip which would make sense that of the standard models the M5 would win.
> 
> 
> 
> Surely the forced induction engine of the RS6 is more tuneable than the normally aspirated M5? I took a quick look at AmD's website and a remap adds 50bhp & 50lb/ft whereas spending another Â£3K on the stuff Paul had only nets an additional 20bhp & 20lb/ft.
> 
> I'd be interested to know how a stage 1 RS6 would fare against a remapped M5. Truth be known, I quite fancy the RS6 Avant
Click to expand...

Rob,

What scoTTy said  .

When i had the RS6 & ran against the DMS M5, all tests were equal head to head. Both cars had the same power (give or take putting out 550BHP) but the RS6 had loads more torque, but lost some of this & it's power due to the Quattro.

So a standard M5 against a standard RS6 or RS6+ should give the win to the M5 (in VMAX stylie) as the M5 has 60BHP on the RS6 & 32BHP on the RS6+ along with the disadvantage in dry conditions of the Quattro sapping juice.

A Stage1 modified RS6/+ (505ish BHP pretty much whoever tunes it) would be close to drawing with a standard M5 as they'd be power matched, but lose out to a tuned M5 & a highly tuned RS6 as per my old car would beat a standard M5 as it proved, but only equal a DMS (tuned) M5.

I think that's explained correctly. If you recall, mine had the AmD re-map, Milltek sports zorst with sports cats & reworked Sportec Intercoolers, Sportec engine & gearbox cooling, Sportec springs & Sportec carbon ducting etc. etc. & cost in excess of Â£11K for all those modifications. With bottomless pockets i could have carried on to 600BHP but that would surely have killed the car & cost well North of Â£25K. Getting 50-70BHP extra out of an RS6 is not that difficult & the cost aint huge, but if you want more than that it starts to get very expensive.


----------



## clived

Presumably the auto box on the RS6 also saps torque?


----------



## W7 PMC

clived said:


> Presumably the auto box on the RS6 also saps torque?


I'd be fairly sure it does as well Clive.

Totally off-topic, did you get my last SMS on Thursday Morning about lunch this coming Thursday (24th) near Reading?? Not sure if the last SMS got through. I'm only in Camberley for that one day over the next few weeks.


----------



## clived

No I didn't Paul M5 owner (just keeping on topic  ), but I'll be up in Edinburgh at the festival so no can do - but let me know next time...


----------



## W7 PMC

clived said:


> No I didn't Paul M5 owner (just keeping on topic  ), but I'll be up in Edinburgh at the festival so no can do - but let me know next time...


No probs Clive RS4 & TT Owner (formerly a BMW onwer).

We'll sort something out for next time i'm in Camberley.

Have fun at the festival.


----------



## NaughTTy

W7 PMC said:


> clived said:
> 
> 
> 
> Presumably the auto box on the RS6 also saps torque?
> 
> 
> 
> I'd be fairly sure it does as well Clive.
> 
> Totally off-topic, did you get my last SMS on Thursday Morning about lunch this coming Thursday (24th) near Reading?? Not sure if the last SMS got through. I'm only in Camberley for that one day over the next few weeks.
Click to expand...

Staying off topic....Paul - are you sticking around on Thursday evening or heading back oop north? If you're still in the area, fancy popping up to the Bucks meet - just north of Beaconsfield - about 30 miles from Camberley?


----------



## W7 PMC

NaughTTy said:


> W7 PMC said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> clived said:
> 
> 
> 
> Presumably the auto box on the RS6 also saps torque?
> 
> 
> 
> I'd be fairly sure it does as well Clive.
> 
> Totally off-topic, did you get my last SMS on Thursday Morning about lunch this coming Thursday (24th) near Reading?? Not sure if the last SMS got through. I'm only in Camberley for that one day over the next few weeks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Staying off topic....Paul - are you sticking around on Thursday evening or heading back oop north? If you're still in the area, fancy popping up to the Bucks meet - just north of Beaconsfield - about 30 miles from Camberley?
Click to expand...

To stay off topic, i believe i am staying over in Bracknell on Thursday evening as i have a meeting at TVP on Friday morning.

I'm 99.9% sure i've been along to a Bucks meet many moons ago. Is it at a pub just off the A404M about halfway between the M4 & M40??

Looks like i can make it, assuming work does not throw up any curve ball. Juct checked the thread under Events so i've got all the details.

See you on Thursday.


----------



## NaughTTy

W7 PMC said:


> NaughTTy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> W7 PMC said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> clived said:
> 
> 
> 
> Presumably the auto box on the RS6 also saps torque?
> 
> 
> 
> I'd be fairly sure it does as well Clive.
> 
> Totally off-topic, did you get my last SMS on Thursday Morning about lunch this coming Thursday (24th) near Reading?? Not sure if the last SMS got through. I'm only in Camberley for that one day over the next few weeks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Staying off topic....Paul - are you sticking around on Thursday evening or heading back oop north? If you're still in the area, fancy popping up to the Bucks meet - just north of Beaconsfield - about 30 miles from Camberley?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> To stay off topic, i believe i am staying over in Bracknell on Thursday evening as i have a meeting at TVP on Friday morning.
> 
> I'm 99.9% sure i've been along to a Bucks meet many moons ago. Is it at a pub just off the A404M about halfway between the M4 & M40??
> 
> Looks like i can make it, assuming work does not throw up any curve ball. Juct checked the thread under Events so i've got all the details.
> 
> See you on Thursday.
Click to expand...

Great news Paul - looking forward to seeing that M5 8)


----------

