# She Done Great!!



## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

Got home today from an 8 day driving frenzy in Germany, that consisted of the 4 Day Scuderia Hanseat driver training course, 3 days of hooning The Ring & a 90min Go-Kart Endurance GP.

Had a fabulous time & was great to meet so many new faces from the RS246 posse who turned up on Fri/Sat. Many thanks to those who set that trip up, as i doubt i've ever seen so many S/RS's in the same place at any one time & some great folks.

Keeping this on topic for the B7 RS4, i just wanted to post some feedback on just how well the car did during it's time in Germany.

First were a few sighting laps of the Nordschleife on Tuesday, to reaquaint myself with the track & soon i was back to the knowledge left behind during my last trip & thank god the track was quiet & dry. Wednesday was the official start of Scuderia, so we had some basic training on a variety of skid pans that induce over & understeer & test ones reactions to re-gain lost control. The afternoon were free laps of the Nordschleife, so i took full advantage of these & planted about 12 free laps over that afternoon.

Scuderia was good - very good, but was far too geared to the German students who accounted for about 60% of the attendees & not enough for the International students. This married with over bearing German efficiency at times strained my enjoyment, however all the 3 Brits passed the final tests with good results & the simple fact is that i now know almost exactly where the perfect braking points, entry points, apex's & exit points for every one of the 75+ corners over the 12mile track & although i don't always take those lines, i most certainly now know the entire track corner for corner which is a great feeling.

Although i don't usually, i timed a flying lap on the Friday (with 2 passengers) & managed an 8:54 BTG which given my best previous in the M5 was about 40secs slower, gave me a confident feeling & proved i was learning what i was being taught. On Monday, i decided to craft my fastest lap when it became obvious the track had quietened a little & i managed what i feel is a respectable 8:33 BTG. Back this against the 8:04 Sport Auto best time for BTG being driven by a highly qualified driver with masses of Nordschleife experience & in a B7 RS4 with Cup tyres. I very much doubt i could personally go much faster than this without pushing the envelope of my abilities too far.

Back to the specifics of the car, it's handling is just sublime & it instills so much confidence it's hard to believe. The car will squeal on it's PZero road tyres & it will shimmy under hard braking, but at no time did the car feel hard pushed & even the couple of times when i had very minor off's, the car was able to be re-compossed very easily.

On track she took many many scalps towards the end of the week & a sight i'll possibly never forget is the look on a CLK AMG DTM drivers face, as myself & our leader scalped said car & driver, this along with many GT3/RS, Fezza 430's, new M3's & M5's, 996/7 Turbo & the list went on. Of course, the RS4 is not really any quicker than any of these cars, however the extra knowledge of the Nordschleife, our cars limits, the perfect lines & a bit of adrenalin, made the scalps not too difficult to remove.

I am truly in shock with how well she performed & she did not miss a beat over the entire trip, however she drank a shit load of petrol.

Will post up/link to some photo's & video when they start appearing & can i ask those from the RS246 Group who took pictures/videos to please let me have a copy via my forum email addie when you get a minute.

Thanks again everyone who came & thanks to the car for now re-igniting my love of the Nordschleife.

Ps. we saw a couple of the new M3 Saloons (got piccies) & saw/heard a new C63 out for some road tests.


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## ronin (Sep 6, 2003)

Not jealous at all :roll: 
8:33, i cant even mamage that on the XBox !


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

Good write up Paul. Sounds like you got the most out of the event.

How are the tyres, brakes and clutch?


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

garyc said:


> Good write up Paul. Sounds like you got the most out of the event.
> 
> How are the tyres, brakes and clutch?


All performed exceptionally, however the front pads now only have a couple of thousand miles life left. No problems at all with the clutch & the tyres are in great shape & not only performed better than any previous car on Mich PS2's, but also have retained their tread pattern very well, as the PS2's showed much wear on the outer edges & that's with far less abuse than these tyres suffered on this trip.


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## StuarTT (May 7, 2002)

> On Monday, i decided to craft my fastest lap when it became obvious the track had quietened a little & i managed what i feel is a respectable 8:33 BTG.


I take my hat off to that time  .

In April we did an 8.35 in the Ring taxi with a professional driver.


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

StuarTT said:


> > On Monday, i decided to craft my fastest lap when it became obvious the track had quietened a little & i managed what i feel is a respectable 8:33 BTG.
> 
> 
> I take my hat off to that time  .
> ...


The Ring Taxi is still & will always be faster than me & i'll always yield when i see one of those infamous white M5's. The 2 simple facts are that the taxi when giving passenger laps is to a degree show-boating so they like to drift & throw the paying passengers around which is not condusive with the best lap times. Second & the reason i yield is that the drivers are not driving their own car so tend to be very aggresive & i know they have no time for any car in-front of them (rightly or wrongly) so it's best to let them go. Also they are often 4up & my best with 3up was 8:54.


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## gcp (Aug 8, 2002)

Great write-up Paul, look forward to seeing some pictures.

Only 3 weeks to go till I'm there


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

You just don't know how pi55ed I am that I couldn't make it. 

Really glad you had a great time and it seems like you nowhave the confidence of really knowing your way around. [smiley=thumbsup.gif]


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## omen666 (Oct 10, 2004)

W7 PMC said:


> Got home today from an 8 day driving frenzy in Germany, that consisted of the 4 Day Scuderia Hanseat driver training course, 3 days of hooning The Ring & a 90min Go-Kart Endurance GP.
> 
> Had a fabulous time & was great to meet so many new faces from the RS246 posse who turned up on Fri/Sat. Many thanks to those who set that trip up, as i doubt i've ever seen so many S/RS's in the same place at any one time & some great folks.
> 
> ...


Tosh


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

scoTTy said:


> You just don't know how pi55ed I am that I couldn't make it.
> 
> Really glad you had a great time and it seems like you nowhave the confidence of really knowing your way around. [smiley=thumbsup.gif]


Would have been good if you'd made it. Defo gonna go again in the Spring.


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

omen666 said:


> W7 PMC said:
> 
> 
> > Got home today from an 8 day driving frenzy in Germany, that consisted of the 4 Day Scuderia Hanseat driver training course, 3 days of hooning The Ring & a 90min Go-Kart Endurance GP.
> ...


I'm hoping that Tosh does not mean what i think it means Damon :? ??

More than enough evidence to substantiate everything above  . Do i detect some green eyed monster from a previous budding Ring Meister :lol: ??

These times & the enhanced knowledge only came about from 4 days of constant expert tuition on The Scuderia Hanseat Training Course, during which we were shown & then practiced every section between 5 & 7 times (including the full GP Track), plus my total lap tally is now around the 140 mark.


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## 55JWB (May 7, 2002)

Pretty happy with my time then, with only 5 laps under my belt and no xbox to practice on! :lol: Was a good weekend :wink:


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

55JWB said:


> Pretty happy with my time then, with only 5 laps under my belt and no xbox to practice on! :lol: Was a good weekend :wink:


It was indeed & twas good to finally meet up.

TBH & without raining on such a great time we all had, it's worth noting that as usual the track got closed a good few times for lengthy periods with some very nasty accidents (2 fatalities). Some exotic machines were very badly damaged (997 Turbo & 997 GT3 RS) plus many many minor accidents, including an oddity of 3 British new Civic Type R's all crashing within an hour of each other :?

The only plus from all this is it has a great tendancy to bring things hard home & makes one think about the laps a little harder than perhaps you would normally. Kinda a big feck off wake up call.


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## 55JWB (May 7, 2002)

My wife commented that she thought I would be more 'up' than I was when I got back :? I was feeling pretty flat yesterday thinking about the quick time I did and in hindsight, with so few laps, what a stupid thing to do.. my overwhelming emotion yesterday was relief that myself and all on our trip were back safe, I saw the first accident just as after it happened, several bikers holding another chaps head... its stuck with me now


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## StuarTT (May 7, 2002)

W7 PMC said:


> StuarTT said:
> 
> 
> > > On Monday, i decided to craft my fastest lap when it became obvious the track had quietened a little & i managed what i feel is a respectable 8:33 BTG.
> ...


You're probably right there, we were 4up, although the other 3 were lightweights compared to me :?

Our driver provoked a slide on 2 or 3 corners to show us how much time that actually costs and then settled down to absolutely hammering it.

Good fun, though I did think that my Dad wasn't looking too good when we got out at the end.


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## raven (May 7, 2002)

I'm a hopeless passenger so think I'd be feeling pretty groggy after a spirited drive.

Are the fatal accidents usually involving motorbikes? I always think of tracks as being relatively safe for a car driver. :?


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## ResB (Apr 17, 2005)

raven said:


> I'm a hopeless passenger so think I'd be feeling pretty groggy after a spirited drive.
> 
> Are the fatal accidents usually involving motorbikes? I always think of tracks as being relatively safe for a car driver. :?


I believe 2 bikers were killed (at least one of them) when I was there a couple of weeks ago. Bikers tend to get a raw deal on the Ring.


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

ResB said:


> raven said:
> 
> 
> > I'm a hopeless passenger so think I'd be feeling pretty groggy after a spirited drive.
> ...


2 Bikers were killed whilst we were there & yes they often get the raw deal, however it's often the bikers fault & no cars involved, although this is not always the case.

Brings it all home very quickly, especially when the Air Ambulance comes in, as that often means it's a fatal


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

55JWB said:


> My wife commented that she thought I would be more 'up' than I was when I got back :? I was feeling pretty flat yesterday thinking about the quick time I did and in hindsight, with so few laps, what a stupid thing to do.. my overwhelming emotion yesterday was relief that myself and all on our trip were back safe, I saw the first accident just as after it happened, several bikers holding another chaps head... its stuck with me now


It really is an overwhelming place & often causes a very mixed bag of emotions. Massive rushes of adrenallin (sp) on track & no matter how hard one tries, a spinkling of the red mist will always shower over you when either a perceived slower car is on your tail or in front of you.

The bottom line is that the Nordschleife is mastered by 75% knowledge & experience & 25% the performance of ones car, so as experience grows, the lap times tumble quickly. Without the Scuderia training, i could never have hoped to safely get down into the 8min times & defo not down to 8:33, as i'd still have been over-powered by the track & slight confusion when i entered an unfamiliar section, thus slowing me down. This is now not the case, however without taking bigger risks i very much doubt i could get my times any lower, so the next time i'm over i can enjoy a half decent laptime & not feel the need to keep pushing harder, which itself could land me/the car in trouble.


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## Rebel (Feb 12, 2005)

Paul, in which group where you? With Dick Hoekendijk the Dutch instructor? He's a friend of mine. I did the Scuderia in 2005 as a beginner and won the first price from both group "beginner" as well "sportfaher"
How many points did you have Paul?


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

Rebel said:


> Paul, in which group where you? With Dick Hoekendijk the Dutch instructor? He's a friend of mine. I did the Scuderia in 2005 as a beginner and won the first price from both group "beginner" as well "sportfaher"
> How many points did you have Paul?


We had the exact same instructor & he was pretty good. TBH i got more from the co-coach Giselher Bertram, who came out with me for a good few full laps.

I finished mid group with 97 points & the best Beginner/Sportfaher got 67 points, so not too far behind.

The basic problem was with the only 3 Brits doing Scuderia all being in the same group, it ended up a kinda them & us as even though our group was meant to be International, everyone else in our group could speak German :?

Looking at doing RMA next year, as i reckon it may be better geared to International/British.


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## Rebel (Feb 12, 2005)

Dick Hoekendijk was your instructor? Nice to hear. His english is pretty good. He won several times the Routinier-group from the scuderia.
He has also joined the winnersgroup one year. 
It's an excellent driver. He's has also the license for the Dutch "Movit-brakes" . 
Gisela is also a nice instructor.

I had 79 points that year. (with my 180hp fwd TT :wink: )
Second was a swiss driver in a brandnew Porsche GT3-RS.
He was also a beginner. I made a lot of pic's those day's.
Because i also was the 1st in de "sportfaher" group, i must join the "Routiniers" next time. :roll: 
I had planned to do the scuderia this year, but i didn't know the car so well at that time, so next year i hope to join the group again.


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## omen666 (Oct 10, 2004)

Thanks for your cocksure PM Paul...ROFLMAO

Your ability to believe your own hype never ceases to amaze me and others on here 

Not disputing your time. I am just laughing my ass off at your attitude and the so called knowledgeable postings you continue with.

The Nordschleife is a special place, and you've enjoyed it too. But don't try to portray yourself as a knowledgeable person about the place. You've got more than most, but it would be an easier read if you just pulled your head in a bit. But thats not your nature, hence your nickname Cockson.

By the way, I'd be disappointed with a 8:33 on a non-public day...so much for the green eyed monster....another demonstration about you spouting lots about something you know nothing about.


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## Rebel (Feb 12, 2005)

Paul 97 points isn't that good 
But 8.33 is very nice indeed ! Do you have it on film?

I spoke with Dick H. The dutch instructor, and talked abouth the language-problem, but he said that they did there very best to talk in english to all the members. 
I've also heart that you didn't like you're startposition for the final lap....

Maybe next time you push the throttle a little bit more in the training section, than you will start more in the front.

Startposition's are given by car-performance but also in combination with the driving skills.
They don't want that a faster driver run's in on a slower driver during the final lap, when they give points.
These instructor's have seen you're skills on the day's before and on that they give you a startposition.

But like i said 97 points isn't that good, so maybe next year you will make some more progress.
Just an advice Paul.... ...I drove almost 400 laps on the Ring, and i never talked abouth times from BTG.
You did one of the oldest and best drivings trainings on the world..."The Scuderia Hanseat". There you can proof yourself. Those instructor's are the best off the best, when it becomes to driving on the Nurburgring.
Only the points count.....and show how good some-one is. Not some BTG-time done without a filmcamara....Because you can shout that you drove a 8.00, nobody saw it?
The points on a Scuderia show's how good you realy are.
70 is good....100 isn't...

So leave all the BTG-times behind you, you don't have to proof anything.
You did the the training and that's more important.
I'm sure you will maken some major progress if you leave the times behind you and concentrate on the lines during these trainings.

I hope my bad english writting doesn't offend you. It was a serious post. And surely not to make you angry or whatsoever.

Nice weekend,

Rob


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

omen666 said:


> Thanks for your cocksure PM Paul...ROFLMAO
> 
> Your ability to believe your own hype never ceases to amaze me and others on here
> 
> ...


Cheers Damon, good at what your good at as your reputation preceded you in Germany. So much kettle, black pot in what you've typed, i've already forwarded it for others amusement :lol:

I've never & would never state any level of expertise so if you read that then change your lenses, however i do now know the track entirely & most (not all) of the Scuderia lines which they state are often the perfect line. This is not something i'd have self taught after 400 laps so the training gave me what i wanted.

The dig at you was a public joke in Germany, as a few commented on a certain member of our party turning into a Damon (you) as he'd managed one good lap & was raving about his/the experience in a ringmeister stylie, which is something a few of us had seen before & his total lap tally was sub 10 :lol:

All credit if you're quicker or perhaps think you're quicker (my best time WAS during public tourist opening).

I am guilty of being very chuffed both with the car & the increased ability the training i recieved provided & that's the limit of it. Some other drivers did better than me on the training & others did worse.


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

Rebel said:


> Paul 97 points isn't that good
> But 8.33 is very nice indeed ! Do you have it on film?
> 
> I spoke with Dick H. The dutch instructor, and talked abouth the language-problem, but he said that they did there very best to talk in english to all the members.
> ...


Rob,

Not offended in the slightest, as i was not tickled with my score, however it overall was a mid finish as a good few Routinears got higher scores than me & about the same number got similar or lower scores. The starting positions were a total joke & Dick admitted this in the end as we'd been asked to decide ourselves where we should start but it was a joke so we said the Instructors could decide.

I caught the 2 cars in-front of me & others ahead had the same issue, to the point when we got stopped halfway (just before Karussel), i had to queue behind 4 cars in total & was held for nearly 2 minutes which totally broke momentum. I then re-caught the same 2 cars before mini-karussel. Saying that, the tuition will stay with me for many years & gave me the ability to now fully appreciate the entire track with it's lines & apexes & i can confidently say i know all the sections in sequence which i thought may take a few more visits to achieve. Also worth noting alot of the tuition was done in wet conditions & the test lap was bone dry, so i was much quicker in the dry than the wet as i can't say i'm 100% familiar with every aspect of my car, having only owned it for 4mths.

Already decided with the others that attended with me that we'll do either the BMW or RMA course next year, as that has a more International focus & many on our course complained about the Germaness of the Scuderia.

Not bitter in the slightest & am not over the moon with my score, but overall i got more experience that i could have ever expected & now fully knowing the Nordschleife track is a great feeling & has re-ignited my love of the place.

As for timings, this won't be repeated as i now don't care what my BTG times are, but i wanted to see the improvement in both my abilities during/following the training & the abilities of the car, so BTG times were the easiest measure. I only times 2 laps in total out of the 40-50 i completed. Defo no video as my vid camera never joined me in Germany given the rule of no filming or you're thrown off & 3 fellas in a Swedish group broke this rule & were barred from the course & the track for the rest of 2007, so was not even worth the gamble.

Last point is the fun vs serious. I'm perhaps a little different (others with me were kinda the same) in that having spent so much to attend Scuderia & once realising that this language thing was going to be an issue, plus the License is National A, not International A as we were originally told, i/we took the view to learn the track & take that from the training, rather than focus 100% on every word the instructors uttered. Some folk of course did the exact opposite & naturally got better scores, but we had mucho fun as well as learning & that was more than i expected so in general we were very happy.

I'll be back next year & i hope to god that the improvement & knowledge gleaned from Scuderia will stand me well & i can then work on my technical driving. Dick himself said i was either very fast round the Nordschleife or very technical (see much slower), but i'll openly admit i was never both on the same lap, so i need to bring those 2 different lap techniques together & then i'll be closer to my & the car's limits of ability.


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## kmpowell (May 6, 2002)

Popcorn anyone?


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## Carlos (May 6, 2002)

Buttered please, a little salt.

My own view on the Nordschleife is that for me, it's just not worth it. I fear the circuit. I'd honestly rather cycle around the outside (as we did earlier this year) than drive it myself - I simply don't enjoy it.

Passenger laps in various Lotus-built lightweighs are a great lark, however. Wurst mit curry sauce mit frites is also worth the trip.

I admire those that drive the circuit properly.


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

kmpowell said:


> Popcorn anyone?


Buttered for me please Kev (low salt if possible) :lol:


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

Carlos said:


> Buttered please, a little salt.
> 
> My own view on the Nordschleife is that for me, it's just not worth it. I fear the circuit. I'd honestly rather cycle around the outside (as we did earlier this year) than drive it myself - I simply don't enjoy it.
> 
> ...


At the yummy van at Brunchen?? Love that Curry Sauce.

TBH Carl, i felt the same way before this trip & was only going for Scuderia, however with the extra knowledge knowing the track provides, it all of a sudden feels alot safer & my fear has reduced significantly, however my respect has probably grown & i'll defo be returning next year at least twice. The carnage is disturbing, but does bring one back to earth & fuels the respect the track deserves.

I can only speak for me & those who joined me on this trip, but had it not been for the Scuderia training, i can say i'd have likely never returned as i felt exactly the same way as you.

As an aside, if Damon does respond i'll share the Biker story from a year or so ago :lol: We bumped into 2 bikers this time that he gave a PAX lap to in his RS6 Avant a little while back & it's truly a funny tale, but i'll not share unless i feel forced to :wink:


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## Rebel (Feb 12, 2005)

Paul thx for you're answere.

I will not go further on some points because otherwise it will look like i don't like you, or don't believe you.
It's only my reaction after i spoke with Dick abouth youre comment's.
I don't want to stand between you both. I can send you his e-mail if you want to speak to him in the future. The guy is very experienced, and i still learning much from him.

Paul, one thing. 
During the Scuderia, you may film. It's alowed.
And filming can be very helpfull afterwards.

Here you can download a movie from a Dutch guy, which is called Marnix.
He did in his first year 62 points as beginner.
It's a onboard-lap filmed during the "abschlussprufung" or the final lap....when you get the points.

http://www.8200rpm.com/Video_Section/51 ... Legacy.wmv

Grtz,

Rob


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

Rebel said:


> Paul thx for you're answere.
> 
> I will not go further on some points because otherwise it will look like i don't like you, or don't believe you.
> It's only my reaction after i spoke with Dick abouth youre comment's.
> ...


Rob,

I can assure you i'm not in the slightest bit sensitive about the whole event & as said am not happy with my score, however certain aspects were not as expected & this from other people on the course as well as in our group.

You have a higher regard for the Scuderia course than i do, however i did enjoy it in the main & did learn far more than i expected.

I was not aware you could film during the training but TBH i had enough to concentrate on so filming would have been another distration.

Dick & I (along with others) did not gel in a way i'd have hoped, however the exact opposite can be said for Giselher Bertram with whom i did get friendly with & he was the only instructor i took out for a few full laps & his feedback i embraced & acted upon. Not saying Giselher is better/worse than Dick, however Giselher's approach was more akin to how i like to be taught & i got massive value from his input.

No hard feelings towards Dick as he's probably a great guy but just not someone i & a few others related to that well. This is a shared opinion, not just mine. No doubt Dick's opinions will differ from mine & that's to be expected, but also respected.

I would value his email address, as i'd like to keep in touch with him & may (although it's a very big may) consider doing Scuderia again in the future. I do wish i'd scored better but as Giselher said many times, i need to align my fast laps with my technical laps & once i've done that i'd be much much further up the rankings (let's hope so)


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## kmpowell (May 6, 2002)

W7 PMC said:


> Dick & I did not gel in a way i'd have hoped





W7 PMC said:


> No hard feelings towards Dick


That surprises me.


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## b3ves (May 6, 2002)

Am v. tempted to do this course (I speak a bit of German) or the BMW Driver Training some time, if only to get a chance to drive the 'closed' circuit.

IMO the more people with high performance cars that get Nordschleife training, the better. There are an increasing number of people with fast cars but no idea and training is the only solution.

My trip there last weekend on the way back from Stelvio was cut short because I needed to change 2 tyres and get an oil leak fixed. By the time I was out on track it was so busy that it just wound me up (incl. getting stuck from Adenaur Forst to Ex-MÃ¼hle behind a 997 GT3RS driven badly) so I decided to leave early to try get a late afternoon crossing. All in all, I got the grand total of 3 laps in 

Am back there 6-8 October by which time I hope it's quieter.


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## Rebel (Feb 12, 2005)

October will be more quit indeed.
I will be there next weekend


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

b3ves said:


> Am v. tempted to do this course (I speak a bit of German) or the BMW Driver Training some time, if only to get a chance to drive the 'closed' circuit.
> 
> IMO the more people with high performance cars that get Nordschleife training, the better. There are an increasing number of people with fast cars but no idea and training is the only solution.
> 
> ...


Rob, did you get me PM??

We're looking into the RMA or BMW course for next year & hope to get some dates scheduled in the next couple of weeks (i'll let you know).

IIRC, it's only Scuderia Hanseat that offer both the F1 GP track & Nordschleife as closed track for the training, as the BMW & RMA only use the Nordschleife. Driving the GP track was an experience in iteself, however my car on road tyres loved Nordschleife, but did not like the GP track :? so i'll not miss that section next time. Scuderia Hanseat use the GP start/finish straight as the meeting & start point for each day's morning/afternoon training which is kinda cool.

Have fun in October. I think we to a degree were lucky with the Public openings, as no doubt the Nordschleife being closed for most of the week we were training, kinda kept some folk away. It's really annoying when you get blockers & sad to say it is often Pork who refuse to let (in their eyes) a lesser car through.


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

kmpowell said:


> W7 PMC said:
> 
> 
> > Dick & I did not gel in a way i'd have hoped
> ...


Shocked me as well :lol:

Spotted the double entendre but couldn't be bothered to edit.


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## Rebel (Feb 12, 2005)

W7 PMC said:


> think we to a degree were lucky with the Public openings, as no doubt the Nordschleife being closed for most of the week we were training, kinda kept some folk away. It's really annoying when you get blockers & sad to say it is often Pork who refuse to let (in their eyes) a lesser car through.


hmmm, sounds a little bit negative to me :?

During the 4 four day's from the scuderia the track is indeed only for the people who do the Scuderia. There are no speedlimits and you can overtake on both sides.

But on publicday's the Nordschleife has also something special.
More than 40 year's these publicday's are there every weekend, and some day's during the week. it's a tradition, something unique in europe...
If you only want to drive on a circuit where you can drive to the limit and clock times, the Nurburgring isn't the right place.

The publicday's have a certain magic. Great atmosphere.

I drove almost 400 laps and i never had any negative experiences.
If a driver wont let you pass, than you have to wait till there's is a point where you can overtake. 
If not, than wait till the next round.
There's no perfect lap on the nurburgring during these day's.
Don't forget it's a normal public tol-road with no speedlimits.
You have to respect the same rules as on every other german road.
So Pushing a car in front in off you is against the law.
Several times during the year the german Polizei (cops) is over there to see if people live by these rules.
I was there when they took a friend of me from the road after his lap.....they saw by helicopter that he was pushing (close driving) another driver. 
There are also section's whith a speedlimit like "Breidscheid" (on the bridge) 
De German Polizei did some controls over there during the public day's...

The nurburgring is not the place to proof how good you're are.
It would be better to get a racing-license and drive real races.

I never judge people on the Ring, even if they are driving in a Porsche or VW Lupo. Maybe it's their first time. Maybe they are overwelmt by the atmosphere and dind't see you right.
I use my blinker very often over there. The driver in front can see you want to overtake him, and also if a faster driver is behind you i will blink that i saw him and let him thrue. Specialy with bikes....

There are people driving in a Golf or Opel Corsa for more than 20 year's.
No way that you or me can catch up with them.


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## Rebel (Feb 12, 2005)

Jeremy Clarcson tried do drive it under the 10 minutes....
Since than half britain is coming over to proof they are better than JC.

It's a shame that they did that programme like that.
He could had done better and just filmed the atmosphere like it realy is.
Maybe some passenger lap's with experinced people in different car's and talk with people.

But than again, JC alway's have to proof his self, with "funny" programm's
The only thing he realy does well, is making a burnout or a drift on a empty airport-lane......such a hero :lol:


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

kmpowell said:


> Popcorn anyone?


Fearful of another witch hunt scandal, I'll take a slice of humpie pie please.

In the light of recent events, I feel it would be helpful to arrange our thoughts with regards to credibility and integrity, around the following matrices:



















Or just squabble away. 

My 10p - we all love the notion of timed 'ring laps as a reference point and benchmark for perfromance cars. BUT we aren't all called Walter or Sabine. A sub 9.30 lap must be considered good and sub 9 min really good. A smooth, balanced and confident lap, is what we all want. And that is always where the speed is found.

Getting the best driving experience, and learrning about you and your car on such a track, is a great thing to do, which i applaud. Leaning from experts and remaining humble and realistic about your own capabilities is a great leveller. Sounds like this course was a good un.

Don't try it in an imaginary car tho. :wink:


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

garyc said:


> kmpowell said:
> 
> 
> > Popcorn anyone?
> ...


A perfect & spot on summary. I'd have failed to put it any better myself


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

Rebel said:


> W7 PMC said:
> 
> 
> > think we to a degree were lucky with the Public openings, as no doubt the Nordschleife being closed for most of the week we were training, kinda kept some folk away. It's really annoying when you get blockers & sad to say it is often Pork who refuse to let (in their eyes) a lesser car through.
> ...


You must have been very very lucky, as every time i've been i've encountered a vast number of blockers, plenty of idiots, many accidents & a list as long of your arm of novices trying to be heroes.

The police were present during the tourist weekend following Scuderia & were hancding out many speeding tickets for those who chose to speed through the limited section (name escapes me), also they were checking papers (mine included). This public weekend was pretty good as in the main it was quiet, however i've seen much worse in previous visits.

I explained my timing as a benchmark for the training, to see if it was working & this won't be repeated as i no longer see the need to time myself. I know exactly what i need to do & have explained in my other posts, that being bring my fast laps & my technical laps closer together.

I've never blocked anyone & will even let idiots through who are not actually quicker than me, but enjoy tailing my lines & after a while this un-nerves me so i let them go only to then be blocked for the rest of the lap. Had this happen many times, but i value my safety.

Tis indeed a fabulous place but without the upmost respect it's a death trap & all too often i've witnessed this including the last trip were at least 2 were killed.


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## Stu-Oxfordshire (May 7, 2002)

Rebel said:


> There are people driving in a Golf or Opel Corsa for more than 20 year's.
> No way that you or me can catch up with them.


I find this profile of driver the worst offender TBH. They spend every lap harassing other drivers out the way but....when the shoe is on the other foot, get them to move over? No chance. I had a frightening near miss with one of these "ringmeisters" last weekend.



W7PMC said:


> The police were present during the tourist weekend following Scuderia & were hancding out many speeding tickets for those who chose to speed through the limited section (name escapes me), also they were checking papers (mine included).


What....from the track? They were watching people around Breidscheid and issuing tickets in the paddock? I have never seen that in 5 years of visiting the place. They must have ticketed the each and every vehicle in the paddock; I'd feel pretty hard done by if that had happened! 
Are you sure you don't mean the 50kph road that runs parallel with Dottinger Hohe (the long straight after the gantry) ? I use that for a brake cool-down after a 2 lap stint and have seen the coppers there many times before.

BTW on the way down 2 weeks ago, a friend and I got stopped by the Police just over the border from Belgium. It was a roadblaock and they were stopping every car.
Ahead of us in the lay-by were x3 porkers and a Fezza (all brits) getting loaded onto flatbeds. Turns out the reason for the roadblock was the Canonball rally thing. In German law this is classed (quite rightly IMO) as a road race so they were impounding EVERY car from the Canonball. They were working with the franch and UK police and had loading info from the ferries and eurotunnel - we were both cross referenced against it.

Despite what was such a heavily resourced roadblock, Fritz couldn't have been more polite. "Papers please" etc...

When they discovered we weren't related to any of the vaccuous individuals whose vehicles were already on the way to the impound, many questions and bits of advice ensued: "enjoy the nordschliefe, public days are fun but zere are buses on ze circuit.." (oh really?)
Either way, they apologised for the inconvenience and helped us on our way. As you can imagine there was a hint of relief that we were on our way without having our wallets lightened. They even posed for a picture!


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

Stu-Oxfordshire said:


> Rebel said:
> 
> 
> > There are people driving in a Golf or Opel Corsa for more than 20 year's.
> ...


That's the section, knew it started with a Brei 

They did not pull every car in the car park AFAIK & i'd guess they only monitored speeds for a few hours, but that section has a 90 then 70 then 50KPH limit where the other entry point at Breidsheid joins the Nordschleife (it was open) & every car was apparently ignoring the limits (as i'd always done before). The only reason i clocked this on one of my laps was during a play with the Ring Taxi, as it was gradually pulling away from me & then all of a sudden i was on it's ar$e (which i thought was my ubber skill :lol: ) but turns out it was slowing to the speed limit through Breidsheid.

Needless to say my following laps all took this limited section into account & although i nearly ended up with 2 CSL's & a 997 GT3 in my boot during the next couple of laps as it appeared to only be me slowing through here, one of the CSL's & the GT3 both appeared to get ticketed when we came off & i think the 2nd CSL got ticketed later.

Saying that, all i know for sure is the local Police pulled both cars off to the right at the main entrance, had stern faces & produced a significant sized notepad on which they were writing on, so i can only assume given the number they were issuing that these were speeding tickets.

My only concern with the RingMeisters (blue Ubber Mini Clubman etc.) are the speed they catch you & their disregard when overtaking, however this does mean i spend more time that i'd normally, looking back through my rear view mirror & if anyone appears to be making better progress than me, i'll always yield & even go slightly off-line, so at least the rest of my lap can be more comfortable as nothing worse than having someone else stuck to your rear & you therefore lose concentration which is a very bad thing.

Whilst on this point, the one thing that annoyed me more than anything during Scuderia, was the fact none of the instructors informed the students on Ring etiquete during public days, so you can guess the carnage this caused when Scuderia students who were 1st time Ringers & the general public mixed. You had all sorts of exotic cars all over the road, indicating in all directions & generally having no awareness of their surroundings or the dangers. During Scuderia itself & the associated closed laps, students were told they could pass on either side  but were not warned it's pass on the left during tourist days.


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## b3ves (May 6, 2002)

Rebel said:


> W7 PMC said:
> 
> 
> > think we to a degree were lucky with the Public openings, as no doubt the Nordschleife being closed for most of the week we were training, kinda kept some folk away. It's really annoying when you get blockers & sad to say it is often Pork who refuse to let (in their eyes) a lesser car through.
> ...


That all sounds very wholesome but I'm not sure as to how much it reflects reality. Some of the fastest cars and bikes often appear to have the least courteous of drivers, with headlights blazing and hanging on the rear bumper until someone pulls over*. Some of the most aggressive moves I've seen have been undertaken (literally as well as the pun) by the Ring Taxis.

I do agree with your sentiments re. JC and the Top Gear thing, although the increase in popularity arising has no doubt put a LOT of money into the local economy. Also, the whole BTG thing started way before JC arrived and the fact remains that a car's Nordschleife lap time is often used as a benchmark in German car magazines.

Rob

*Actually, that's just like many of the experiences I've had whilst driving rental cars on the autobahns, so you are perhaps right that the Nordschleife gets driven like every other German road!


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## Rebel (Feb 12, 2005)

Rob a friend of mine "Fabian" is more than 7 years Ring-Marshall on the Ring.
He drives a yellow bike with a yellow leather suit.
Drives more than 700 laps each year. (even more on severa; years)

He know's all the in and ouths from the nurbrugring.AG

Many people think that the tourist like we in the weekends bring a lot of money..
Did you know that "one" industry-pool day" (testday fro new car's from several manufactures) brings more money than 8 weekends touristical TF-day's like we drive?

second, i do think JC did a bad thing with his programm.
Because everybody was talking abouth times afterwards.
Ant i hope i don;t offend you, but since than the english drivers increased a lot....after those show's from clarkson

and last but not least.....from the 10 accidents, there are almost 5 times UK people involved... and that's pretty much compared to alle the country's who are driving over there.
Why? don;t ask me? These are just facts.
Maybe it also got to do, with the fact that you drive on the left dide from the road?

And indeed There or several times each year speedcontrols in Breidscheid. So alway;s be aware to the fact that they van catch you there in your first lap...

Just a question.... is the Nordschleife excluded in your insurance-polis ?
Do you use a track or circuit insurance for those day's?
Or what will happen if there will be a accident?
Will the company pay at all times?

What if you hit someone and he can't walk again?
Are you sure you that the Nurburgring is within your insurance-polis?

last but not least....

There are many wild indian story's aboutht the many dead people on the Ring...
I can tell you one thing.....most people died on the roads around the ring, not on the itself.

But i do like the thought that people get scared by the fact that the ring is dagerous and "killing" ....... i think they better can drive their laps on their X-box or Nintendo.

So indeed the ring is very very dangeroussssss .... BOOOOOOOOO...
Maybe it will be quit next year over there :wink: 
Let just hope that clarkson wont be there the next years...
His attitude didn't showed respect for the ring and their drivers.... wheb he was shouting "get out the way"....when he wanted to reach the 10 min....after some slower driver.

those movies where filmed on public day's, so those other drivers had the same rights as he did.
But clown jeremy thinks everything he wants just happens.

Good night :wink:


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

Rebel said:


> Rob a friend of mine "Fabian" is more than 7 years Ring-Marshall on the Ring.
> He drives a yellow bike with a yellow leather suit.
> Drives more than 700 laps each year. (even more on severa; years)
> 
> ...


Well 2 defo died while i was there, however i don't know their nationality, plus their were many many non injury prangs.

My insurance does cover the Nordschleife, however my previous insurance company did not cover it.

I'll be back next year, but have no desire now to time any more of my laps so i'll be concentrating on aligning fast laps & technical laps into the same lap.


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

I want to hear more about Damon's bikers...


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

jampott said:


> I want to hear more about Damon's bikers...


Off-line perhaps. :lol:

Good look with the new house.


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

I was there the weekend Clarkson filmed his 10minute lap.

He did tour the car park and speak to many people most of which didn't make the program. Many were star struck :roll:

It was a real pain. They even closed it for a couple of periods so they could film :x and you all saw the congestion when he leaves the track, blocks the exit and does a peice to camera.

More worrying than anything is a move he pulled. He was totally off line and going at a sedate space. (Probably reading his script!!) He then accelerated and swung onto the racing line. However a motorbike was already doing a totally legitimate passing move. The gap was very narrow and the bike managed to get through unscathed. Clarkson showed no evidence of an obersation skills and seemed totally focussed on one thing....himself!

This isn't urban myth. I watched the footage from the bike shortly after it happened and again on a TV in the bar in the evening.

It was a sad day for the 'ring as since then it's got too busy and full of British heroes all out with the Clarkson mindset to prove a point instead of simply enjoying putting a good lap together.


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## Rebel (Feb 12, 2005)

I was there also the same day Scotty.
Made some pic's from the clown...
They acted if the whole parking place was theirs....

They closed the track indeed for some time. And i've heard from a friend who's a ringmarschal he didn't see a biker...

10 minutes in a jaguar with a rollcage...... such a hero :wink:


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## Wondermikie (Apr 14, 2006)

Rebel said:


> ...10 minutes in a jaguar with a rollcage...... such a hero :wink:


Never realised, they never showed that fitted on TV did they?

Got any more pics of Sabine :wink:


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## b3ves (May 6, 2002)

I was also there that weekend 

Here's another Sabine photo


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## b3ves (May 6, 2002)

Rebel said:


> Many people think that the tourist like we in the weekends bring a lot of money..
> Did you know that "one" industry-pool day" (testday fro new car's from several manufactures) brings more money than 8 weekends touristical TF-day's like we drive?
> 
> second, i do think JC did a bad thing with his programm.
> ...


Rebel, my point about money from tourism was specifically focused torwards the local economy (hotels, bars, restaurants, shops & petrol stations!) as opposed to Nordschleife AG or whatever the company is called. Having said that, if the circuit wasn't doing very nicely out of the Brits I doubt they would have bothered putting in a right hand drive ticket barrier.

IMO everyone was talking about times long before JC/TG went there, but I agree that the obsession with time in his feature was a very bad thing. As such, I was surprised and disappointed that he seemingly had the full support of the circuit, not to mention Ms Schmitz.

Not sure why you might think I could be offended about more English visiting as a result of the most popular motoring programme on British TV running a feature hosted by its most well known motoring journalist.

The statistics (if true) about British involvement in accidents are interesting. A large percentage of drivers and motorcyclists there on public days are British, but I can't say I've noticed such a high percentage when it comes to cars and bikes getting towed off the track. That said, it could be argued that the British have much less experience at driving at high speed, due to our 70mph national speed limit.

Hope to see you there sometime. I'm there next weekend (in the Lotus) if you're around....

Rob


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

Rob, you have PM.

Totally agree that although on Tourist days the car park is often like Brits abroad, i have no reason to believe the highest number of serious accidents or deaths are soley the domain of British drivers as i see as many non UK cars/bikes being towed off.

That said, when there a few weeks ago, 3 UK New Civic Type R's were involved in accidents, although all minor, but the bigger smashes i saw (new 997 Turbo), 2 motorcyclists & the Gumbert Apollo were all German registered.


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