# Second hand VW Lupo - a few faults - warranty question



## antcole (Apr 4, 2009)

Hello folks,

My boy bought quite a tidy 2001 VW Lupo today from a local dealer and out of curiosity, i plugged the VCDS VagCom in to see if there were any ghosts hiding.....

These are they -

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 15: Airbags Labels: 6Q0-909-605-VW5.LBL
Controller: 6Q0 909 601 
Component: 1R AIRBAG VW5 0006
Coding: 12626
Shop #: WSC 01236
1 Fault Found:
00588 - Airbag Igniter; Driver Side (N95)
32-10 - Resistance too High - Intermittent

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Address 17: Instruments Labels: Redir Fail!
Controller: 6X0 920 901 
Component: KOMBIINSTRUMENT BOO V22
Coding: 00441
Shop #: WSC 00423
1 Fault Found:
01039 - Coolant Temperature Sensor (G2)
64-10 - Not Currently Testable - Intermittent

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The engine code cleared ok but the instruments code wouldnt clear, just kept re-appearing without any hesitation.

The one that does worry me is the airbag igniter fault code..... 
With the ignition on, the airbag system check light doesnt come on during the inital system test.
This makes me think the airbag light has been disconnected..... for obvious reasons....

So, the car came with a 6 month warranty... im therefore thinking the airbag fault should be covered under the warranty.
Plus, if the airbag light is disconnected, thats surely an MOT fail?

Havent been back to the dealer today as it was late, but where does he stand with regards to having the faults sorted under the warranty?


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

Forget about the warranty for now. By law, the dealer should fix these issues out of their own pocket as they have a responsibility to sell a car that is free from faults (other than those you can reasonably expect for a cars age/mileage). This even includes faults which they didnt know existed when they sold the car.

Warranties are often used by dealers as a way to avoid their legal responsibilities and push the cost of repairs onto someone else. You may also end up paying something towards the repair (depending on the terms of the policy) when really it should be fixed for free at the dealers expense.

I would go back to the dealer and tell them about the fault, and about your suspicion the airbag light has been disabled somehow. Tell them the fault was clearly present when they sold the car and you want them to fix it. They'll start trying to persuade you to use the warranty, but you should stick to your guns and insist that they deal with it.

Oh, and the airbag light should come on (along with all the other major warning lights) when you turn the key to position one. If it doesnt, then it's obviously been disconnected.


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## antcole (Apr 4, 2009)

Spandex said:


> Forget about the warranty for now. By law, the dealer should fix these issues out of their own pocket as they have a responsibility to sell a car that is free from faults (other than those you can reasonably expect for a cars age/mileage). This even includes faults which they didnt know existed when they sold the car.
> 
> Warranties are often used by dealers as a way to avoid their legal responsibilities and push the cost of repairs onto someone else. You may also end up paying something towards the repair (depending on the terms of the policy) when really it should be fixed for free at the dealers expense.
> 
> ...


Thanks mate,
Thats excellent info. I have very little experience of used car dealers having always bought cars privately.... but ive heard so many horror stories of dealers wriggling out of repairs to newly sold cars and even the odd aggressive dealer refusing to acknowledge the responsibility of repairs etc....
Im going to go round myself and point out the problems.
24hrs hasnt even passed since the sale, so im sure it shouldnt be an issue (i hope).

Theres also a slight wheel bearing whine, plus the heater controls arent working properly too.....
1600 quid should see a pretty good car, barring a couple of nicks, scratches and minor cosmetic issues.... so it needs sorting.

Thanks again for the info.


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## techfreak (Aug 13, 2010)

Dealer should definitely sort it out. You have statutory rights under consumer law and there's also the sale of goods act.

I'm currently going through something similar with my own car and first time I've bought from a dealer.


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## antcole (Apr 4, 2009)

techfreak said:


> Dealer should definitely sort it out. You have statutory rights under consumer law and there's also the sale of goods act.
> 
> I'm currently going through something similar with my own car and first time I've bought from a dealer.


Its a real pain in the hole and very disappointing when the car is less than satisfactory and needs attention immediately after buying it....
Anyway, i chatted with the dealer today and he was pretty helpful, although the jobs still need sorting yet....

Im just dreading a wrangle or a 'sold as seen' comment....


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

antcole said:


> techfreak said:
> 
> 
> > Dealer should definitely sort it out. You have statutory rights under consumer law and there's also the sale of goods act.
> ...


If he tries to tell you it was "sold as seen", then tell him you'd like that in writing as you plan on discussing it with Citizens Advice. It's actually illegal for dealers to make claims like that, as they are effectively trying to deceive you regarding your statutory rights.

If they're being helpful though, just keep it friendly and give them the opportunity to fix things.


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## antcole (Apr 4, 2009)

Well..... the dealer has now repaired a few problems on the car but is still adamant that a 'non illuminating' airbag light is definitely not an MOT failure.
The way i see it is that he is unwilling to attempt a repair as he knows its a costly job......

So.... what next? Do i take the car and take his word that it wont fail its next MOT on that or do i have to get sh*tty with him and let the whole thing become nasty.....?
My son has only driven it for a day so far and im beginning to regret ever setting eyes on it!

What grounds do i have for demanding a refund if its going to be a costly affair to correct the airbag fault?


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## techfreak (Aug 13, 2010)

My understanding is you can "reject" the car and get a full refund.

I also believe you can take it elsewhere to be fixed and bill them for it. However if they refuse you'd have to take em court to recover your money. A case recently passed were this happened. The buyer took his car to be fixed without even approaching the dealer in the first instance, the court ruled the dealer should pay and cover the court costs, something about them not having a returns/repairs procedure.

Highly likely they don't have a returns/repairs procedure.

This of course will get nasty and drag out.

I would in this instance remind them of their responsibilities.

Whether the light not illuminating is an mot failure is irrelevant. If (as the handbook most likely says too) this light should light up at first turn of key, subsequently going out moments later - and it is not doing this, coupled with your fault code on vcds - this indicates a fault in the system and needs repair.

This is their responsibility to resolve whether they like it or not.

If they still refuse then get your refund if this is the best outcome for you.

Some links :-

www.honestjohn.co.uk/faq/consumer-rights/

http://www.lawgistics.co.uk/used-car-wa ... a-used-car

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/report ... ft1241.pdf

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/advice/2010 ... ning-a-car


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## antcole (Apr 4, 2009)

techfreak said:


> My understanding is you can "reject" the car and get a full refund.
> 
> I also believe you can take it elsewhere to be fixed and bill them for it. However if they refuse you'd have to take em court to recover your money. A case recently passed were this happened. The buyer took his car to be fixed without even approaching the dealer in the first instance, the court ruled the dealer should pay and cover the court costs, something about them not having a returns/repairs procedure.
> 
> ...


Once again, thanks so much for the info and advice.

The links you provided are superb, its settled my mind.

Ill let you know how it goes.....


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

As Techfreak says, the MOT has nothing to do with it. Airbag faults are a serious safety issue and there isn't a court in the country that would say it's acceptable to sell a car with a fault like that.

The "guidance for 2nd hand car dealers" PDF he linked to is written for dealers rather than buyers, but I think it's something everyone should read before buying a car. I'd go so far as saying that knowing your legal rights is even more important than knowing what to look for on the car itself - no matter how knowledgeable you are, you can always miss something, so it's vital you know what to do when that happens.


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## antcole (Apr 4, 2009)

Spandex said:


> As Techfreak says, the MOT has nothing to do with it. Airbag faults are a serious safety issue and there isn't a court in the country that would say it's acceptable to sell a car with a fault like that.
> 
> The "guidance for 2nd hand car dealers" PDF he linked to is written for dealers rather than buyers, but I think it's something everyone should read before buying a car. I'd go so far as saying that knowing your legal rights is even more important than knowing what to look for on the car itself - no matter how knowledgeable you are, you can always miss something, so it's vital you know what to do when that happens.


Thanks again Spandex mate, first class support and advice guys. Another reason this forum is invaluable!


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## techfreak (Aug 13, 2010)

Can't take all the credit for those links most of them I pulled from another forum.

I hope you get it sorted.

My situation is slightly different and I'm looking at it from a time/cost basis. I need the car and any time without is a huge inconvenience.

If I opt to reject mine then I may not get the full money back as I've put a further miles on it, also I'd have the hassle and further cost of finding another car and potentially starting this same journey over again.

My faults are no a/c and intermittent ESP fault that comes and goes. Vcds and my research has narrowed it down to pressure sensor + potential regas for a/c and central electrics control module for ESP (potentially). ESP could be something else although battery/alternator appear fine and no fault code for abs module - thankfully.

I priced up parts for all repairs and I'm looking at £300. I asked the dealers to pay for parts and I'll do the work as i got on very well with them.

Currently waiting on their reply. Although I think now they don't want to pay anything.

They are only a small dealer with no showroom and had only 5 cars up for sale inc mine when I went to see them. I got/get on well them and fully appreciate they're (like me) family men trying to make a living.

I also negotiated a very good price in my eyes especially considering some equivalent cars I seen. Opted for no warranty and took car with existing mot etc

Now, I'm thinking if they offer refund, is it going to cost me £300+ to find a replacement = yes.

If they refuse to pay towards any repairs is it going to cost me £300+ to sort out = yes.

I could take it Audi get all the work done, send them the bill, go court to recover costs (££££s) then by the end of it they could potentially liquidate the business leaving me hugely out of pocket. Even if they don't liquidate i have to hope they have the money in the bank to pay and a quick companies house check if their accounts would indicate possibly not.

Not many options left ....


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## antcole (Apr 4, 2009)

techfreak said:


> Can't take all the credit for those links most of them I pulled from another forum.
> 
> I hope you get it sorted.
> 
> ...


Mate, im in total agreement.... id almost be prepared to lose a few hundred just to get shot of it now.
I know the guy isnt an Arfur Daley type but i still want a result or most of my money back..... thankfully, my boy hasnt had enough time in the car yet to clock up many miles..... its completely sh*t and i wish id just paid more for a newer private sale.

You lives n learns!


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## Kell (May 28, 2002)

techfreak said:


> I also negotiated a very good price in my eyes especially considering some equivalent cars I seen. Opted for no warranty and took car with existing mot etc
> .


If they're traders, then you can't opt for 'no warranty'. It's a legal requirement for them to give you at least 3 months - what that covers is another matter.

If they're not registered traders, then presumably the taxman would like to know about their dealings.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

Kell said:


> If they're traders, then you can't opt for 'no warranty'. It's a legal requirement for them to give you at least 3 months - what that covers is another matter.
> 
> If they're not registered traders, then presumably the taxman would like to know about their dealings.


Traders aren't obliged to give you a warranty. They're just obliged to sell you something that meets certain standards, and technically there is no time limit on when you can discover a problem (although after a few months it would become very difficult to prove that a fault was on the car when you bought it).

A warranty is a very different thing and is in addition to your statutory rights. Typically they're provided by a third party company and they should only really be used as an extension to your contract with the dealer - i.e. when something goes wrong 6 months down the line which probably isn't due to a pre-existing fault when you bought the car.


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## Kell (May 28, 2002)

Ah. Well you live and learn.

Every car I've bought recently was covered by the 'Statutory 3 Month' warranty. Or so I was told by the dealer.

I was thinking the same as this guy

http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/ ... tm?t=49548


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

Although I think the OP was incorrect (in the HJ thread), the advice given in there seems about right. As a buyer, you're protected by various laws which some people mistakenly claim cover you for 3 months or 6 months (depending on who you talk to). The fact is, the law doesn't place any time limits on when you can return a car with a fault but, should it go to court, the judge will be pragmatic about the length of time you've owned the car, the mileage you've done and the type of fault. This ultimately means if you go to a dealer 6 months after you bought the car and say "the airbag light just came on", you probably don't have a legal leg to stand on.

Dealers often try to sell you a 3rd party warranty (or insist on you buying it), or some throw it in for free, but to be honest I would avoid these warranties like the plague. Seeing as you're covered by law for a lot of stuff in the first few months, your 3 month or 6 month warranty is mostly pointless. Add to that the fact that you're not given the opportunity to shop around for the most suitable cover for the car you're buying and the fact that you're not given any chance to negotiate the price with the warranty company and it all just adds up to a bit of a scam. Even if the warranty is given 'free', you can bet you've paid for it somewhere in the deal.


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## SVStu (Dec 11, 2006)

Resistors are often fitted on lupo's to fool ECU when fitting aftermarket steering wheel, perhaps this was done in past??

I wonder as its an intermittent fault if a clean and re-assemble would fix but I'd stand my ground at garage first.

Stu.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

SVStu said:


> Resistors are often fitted on lupo's to fool ECU when fitting aftermarket steering wheel, perhaps this was done in past??


I think the fact that the airbag light doesn't come on when you turn the key means that someone has either covered it up or removed the LED - probably because theres an airbag fault they couldn't fix (or couldn't be arsed to fix).

Doesn't put the dealer in a good light though. Even if you give them the benefit of the doubt and assume it was like that when they bought it, you'd think something like that should be pretty obvious to someone who buys cars for a living.


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