# Nearly 10,000 Jobs to go at Audi



## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

German car industry is not doing well it seems. Lets blame it on Brexit and it will only get even worse with a no deal..
I've certainly not been buying cars since all this started and I wouldn't buy another new Audi until they release an electric sports coupe.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/busines ... ?li=AA54rU


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## Blade Runner (Feb 16, 2018)

Toshiba said:


> German car industry is not doing well it seems. Lets blame it on Brexit and it will only get even worse with a no deal..
> I've certainly not been buying cars since all this started and I wouldn't buy another new Audi until they release an electric sports coupe.
> 
> https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/busines ... ?li=AA54rU


...by 2025, so many of those jobs will be lost through "natural wastage" (people retiring not being replaced) rather than sudden mass redundancies. The nature of the car business is changing fast and they won't need as many people to assemble electric cars. Any workers 'jumping ship' early might be able to get a job with Tesla! - their new European factory is to be built just outside Berlin.

I am looking forward to the next Cayman, which will probably be the first all-electric £50k sports coupe.
Should be a game changer...


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## kennowaybino (Feb 7, 2015)

Bought a tts new a few months ago, but like Toshiba my next car will be an all electric affair/ hopefully the price will come down !


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## rm0rgan (Sep 14, 2019)

kennowaybino said:


> Bought a tts new a few months ago, but like Toshiba my next car will be an all electric affair/ hopefully the price will come down !


I've just come from an electric car (i3) and have to say, apart from the looks on the outside there is a heap to love about the silence, power delivery and connected experience (I really miss getting into a warm defrosted car in the morning), however, the charging infrastructure is a complete mess and that will need sorting before I go back or they can give me a 300 mile winter range...


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## Ddave (Mar 6, 2019)

If the first post on this thread is true it only proves we are better off out of Europe as, should we leave, the German economy will be in competition with us. The European economy is faltering anyway. Who knows, maybe future Audi's will be built in the U.K. instead of Hungary or wherever they are currently being built.
I for one couldn't give a s**t.

Additionally, if Audi didn't take the p**s with their pricing I might have a bit of sympathy.


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## captainhero17 (Apr 10, 2018)

Ddave said:


> IAdditionally, if Audi didn't take the p**s with their pricing I might have a bit of sympathy.


Man after my own heart <3


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## ZephyR2 (Feb 20, 2013)

Ddave said:


> If the first post on this thread is true it only proves we are better off out of Europe as, should we leave, the German economy will be in competition with us. The European economy is faltering anyway. Who knows, maybe future Audi's will be built in the U.K. instead of Hungary or wherever they are currently being built.
> I for one couldn't give a s**t.
> 
> Additionally, if Audi didn't take the p**s with their pricing I might have a bit of sympathy.


Think I agree with you on all of those points, particularly the last one. 
On top of their already inflated prices many options are now lumped together in various packs or higher trim levels (allegedly due to WLTP). 
e.g. If I want the wind deflector, a £400 option, I can only have it with a pack costing £1200 with stuff that I don't want. 
Get lost !


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## adey (Feb 5, 2010)

went down to local audi dealer after being bombarded with emails the latest one saying "we want your car for Christmas" so thought nothing to lose I am more than happy with my car at the moment lets go down and see what they offer , well the meeting didn't last too long, offered me silly money for mine and even the person selling admitted the tt is priced too high so I'll keep mine until the price is more sensible , it doesn't surprise me they are shedding jobs many other car manufactures will be doing the same, I think the pcp bubble is about to burst.


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## leopard (May 1, 2015)

Ddave said:


> If the first post on this thread is true it only proves we are better off out of Europe as, should we leave, the German economy will be in competition with us. The European economy is faltering anyway. Who knows, maybe future Audi's will be built in the U.K. instead of Hungary or wherever they are currently being built.
> I for one couldn't give a s**t.
> 
> Additionally, if Audi didn't take the p**s with their pricing I might have a bit of sympathy.


Been saying it for years Dave, well said.


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## leopard (May 1, 2015)

adey said:


> I think the pcp bubble is about to burst.


Been saying this for years too :lol:


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

It's already started, there's no contribution to a new or next car. PCPs are for mugs and people who have no to little capital.


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## no name (Feb 16, 2014)

Certainly has.

Prices have become ludicrous too.

Paid mine off and got off the treadmill.


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## Blade Runner (Feb 16, 2018)

Toshiba said:


> It's already started, there's no contribution to a new or next car. PCPs are for mugs and people who have no to little capital.


To label all people who opt for PCPs (currently accounting for over 70% of all new car 'purchases') as mugs is a bit wide of the mark. A 'mug' (in this context) is someone who gets into financial difficulty without understanding what they are doing. For example, someone who takes out a loan and can't really afford the monthly repayments.

As you imply, it's mostly for people who don't have the cash to buy the car they want outright, but quite a few people chose PCP because they are happier to pay out a steady £350 per month (with at least an option on a future settlement) than see their bank balance suddenly drop by £40,000. There are many possible reasons for this and everyone's circumstances are different.

You could equally argue (as many do!) that _everyone_ buying a brand-new car is a mug.
What else would you buy with hard cash where its value drops by about 10% before you even get it home! Er, that's £4000 on a £40k car. People know about rapid depreciation and just accept it for the thrill of owning a new car. It doesn't make them a mug. Its just how they choose to spend their own money. Buying a car - at least to a car enthusiast - is not like buying a washing machine. It's not a totally rational process.


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## Blade Runner (Feb 16, 2018)

leopard said:


> adey said:
> 
> 
> > I think the pcp bubble is about to burst.
> ...


Yes, people (including financial "experts") have been saying "about to burst" for at least 5 years, so they were obviously wrong.

Credit bubbles usually burst due to irresponsible lending by the banks, often targeting vunerable people.
Witness the recent collapse of several pay-day loan companies and, of course, the housing market crash of 2007/8.
If the PCP incentives (big discounts, free servicing etc) do indeed disappear, then they will become less attractive and will die a natural death. Can't see the car industry allowing this to happen though..


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## Iceblue (Jul 20, 2018)

It is also hard to compete against subsidised electric cars and policies. Also is it just me but I keep seeing more and more older classic cars on the road being brought back to life.


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## 90TJM (Sep 30, 2013)

PCP or Cash the depreciation is getting too much for me on new cars.Thinking of a used Cayman next time.


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## ross_t_boss (Feb 28, 2017)

Blade Runner said:


> Yes, people (including financial "experts") have been saying "about to burst" for at least 5 years, so they were obviously wrong.


As the saying goes, "Keep saying it for long enough and you'll eventually be right!"

But PCPs won't be going anywhere, the sub-prime PCP market is doing very well - some folks are paying similar amounts for a car 3yrs old vs new, at a 10-15% APR (and then shafted when it breaks down with no warranty - that's the real mug's vice),
there's 3rd party options at 3-4% available and in general, society is leaning more to a 'pay as you go' culture rather than asset accumulation.

I'd expect to see more of that in future; expect to see fully insured automated cars from the manufacturer at a monthly price - potentially even without options to buy outright - already analysis in the car insurance industry looking at how to affiliate with manufacturers to remain relevant in 20-30yrs time.


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

Sure PCPs are a mugs games, it's the first step to subscription and no ownership. This only benefits the automakers and gives them repeatable predictable revenue. You can't pause, stop or get off easily and if you do you've lost everything not just the 10%

Next will be a post about cloud being cheaper...


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## simestt (Nov 2, 2017)

Toshiba said:


> German car industry is not doing well it seems. Lets blame it on Brexit and it will only get even worse with a no deal..
> I've certainly not been buying cars since all this started and I wouldn't buy another new Audi until they release an electric sports coupe.


I shan't be buying another Audi AFTER they go all-electric. The charging infrastructure in the UK is not up to the job and nothing's being done about it. I live in a house with my own driveway so I thought I'm lucky, I will be able to get a fast charger installed. Local electricity network guys visited and said no, you can't, your house is on a grid spur and no-one on a spur can have a fast charger because they draw too many amps and the network isn't designed for it. And the public charging network is too gappy, too unreliable and ties up your car for too long. If all that isn't enough, UK power generation is only just up to the job of meeting peak winter demand today after the closure of old nuclear power plants and coal-fired plants, so I predict the planned electric car revolution is going to be delayed, at least in UK.


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

Daimler cutting 10k jobs too.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/news/da ... ?li=AA54rU


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## Blade Runner (Feb 16, 2018)

Iceblue said:


> It is also hard to compete against subsidised electric cars and policies. Also is it just me but I keep seeing more and more older classic cars on the road being brought back to life.


If you are referring back to jobs, then all car makers currently have different parts of the company effectively competing against each other. However, there is only going to be one winner (petrol vs electric) in the medium term, so they will all be shedding jobs over the next few years. Government subsidies for electric cars won't last for ever, especially as they are set to lose billions per year in revenue as EV take up increases. Get ready for a pay-per-mile tax..

Can't say I've noticed any particular increase in classic cars. Owners don't pay road tax if the car is more than 40 years old, but they can be expensive to keep running in other ways!


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## Blade Runner (Feb 16, 2018)

simestt said:


> Toshiba said:
> 
> 
> > German car industry is not doing well it seems. Lets blame it on Brexit and it will only get even worse with a no deal..
> ...


You make some valid points, but its not correct to say that "nothing is being done about it". All the electricity distribution companies are busy with plans to support EVs. Agree that there is not much to see on the ground just yet but I think the situation will be very different in 2-3 years, with charging stations popping up at supermarkets and fast food outlets, as well as garages. Charging up at home should be regarded as a back-stop anyway. It will take "several hours" even with a special home charger unit installed and that is never going to catch on as the routine method. With a supercharger and new battery tech the full recharge time should get down to about 10-15 minutes, which combined with a range of about 300 miles would then make EVs a practical proposition. Now is not the time to buy an electric car, but 2023 (when the new e-Cayman is due to be released, possibly followed by a e-TT) might well be...


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## Mark Pred (Feb 1, 2017)

Blade Runner said:


> Toshiba said:
> 
> 
> > It's already started, there's no contribution to a new or next car. PCPs are for mugs and people who have no to little capital.
> ...


More or less everything that person posts is wide of the mark. The biggest mug is someone paying cash for a depreciating asset :roll:


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

Clearly logic or math is not your strong point. Actually, do you have a strong point at all?
Jealousy is an ugly mistress..!

PCP will ALWAYS be more expensive vs CASH. You have to finance the loan, or someone is and then getting you to pay for it monthly. Same car will be worth the same at the end if they were to be sold at the same point. The only difference is what you paid from start to finish. NO MARKUPs to anyone on cash.

Use the free discount if you can't get a better deal and then pay it off day 2.
You should also speak with an accountant, the saying is don't "purchase depreciating assets on finance"... :roll:

i'll make it easy for you, direct copy and past.. finance basics..
"1. Limit the depreciating assets you buy and pay cash for them. You need a car and you do need other things that lose money. Instead of buying something you can't afford and borrowing money for it, buy something less expensive and pay cash for it."


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## leopard (May 1, 2015)

Toshiba said:


> "1. Limit the depreciating assets you buy and pay cash for them. You need a car and you do need other things that lose money. Instead of buying something you can't afford and borrowing money for it, buy something less expensive and pay cash for it."


The flip side as quoted by the fictional character

'Tommy Earl Bruner' is:

"if it flies, floats or fucks rent it, don't buy it"

But he might have been having a bad day though :lol:


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## Blackhole128 (Dec 24, 2015)

For most cases the comments about PCP being more expensive would be right (as I thought when I looked at getting a 1-year old Macan recently and ran away after seeing the interest payments over 4 years came to £9k!) but I managed to do pretty well with it.

4 years ago I was looking for a 1-year old TT quattro s-tronic with nav, climate, b&w, comfort pack and low mileage.
Sent the feelers out at the dealer and their sales guy came back with a brand-new, pre-built unregistered car. I said I couldn't afford a new one, but he got me to sit down to listen to the deals they had.

Long and dull story short, I was offered over £10k discount on the list price of the car. I think it worked-out to a 26% discount on the list price of £43.5k! I couldn't walk away from that.

If I'd paid cash, I could have had the car with a £2k discount. The finance discount, being matched by the dealership wouldn't have applied.

It was a no-brainer. Even adding in the 6.8% interest on the deal, I've had the car for just over £36k including the residual (all figures from memory as I can't be bothered to dig out my paperwork).

My 4-year deal is now over and I'm going to pay cash for the £16.5k residual later in December. The car has been faultless over all that time and I'm more than happy to buy it out, even though it's had one careless driver.

Not all PCP'ers are mugs 8)


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

But if you paid it off at day 2, you'd be in front by 6.8% on the SAME car and would have still had the SAME discount... 
PCPs are more expensive. the "cheapest" way to buy a car will always be cash.


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## ZephyR2 (Feb 20, 2013)

Yep, you use PCP to negotiate the best deal and then use cash to pay it off asap.


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## ross_t_boss (Feb 28, 2017)

Toshiba said:


> the "cheapest" way to buy a car will always be cash.


So my brothers M5 cost him £70k on PCP. It was nearly 25% discount on a factory order, only with finance. At 0%. After the 4 years the private used value is 5k less that the balloon (and WBAC 10k less). Appreciate that's not a typical scenario but it's not always the wrong way to do it.

Generally I'm in the lease or buy book, although I part-PCP'd my TTRS, that was simply a case of wanting something before I could afford to pay for it outright. I'm in the "you only have one life, live a little" chapter right now.


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## simestt (Nov 2, 2017)

Blade Runner said:


> simestt said:
> 
> 
> > Toshiba said:
> ...


That's quite encouraging. I hope you're right. The experience of the few people I know with electric cars today has been that home charging is the only reliable way. It takes hours but they've got hours; they plug the car in when they get home every day. So I concluded, like you said, now is not the time to buy one. If work is going on to make the grid ready, that's good. (And vital!)


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## Ddave (Mar 6, 2019)

Just to be factually correct about PCP. It's only for the 'economically illiterate' *IF* you are getting poorer returns on investments than the PCP costs. To state that all PCP is for muppets is a muppetry comment. If I'm keeping hold of my capital, investing it, and getting an 'interest' of around 50% (which I am) piddly little PCP plans with their 6% interest and potential of retention of capital investment means jack shit to me.

I can see the logic if you can't invest and don't understand finance. Yes to that extent it's a bad idea but, not always.

Still couldn't give a sh*t about Audi shedding jobs though. Judging by some of the other posts on here about the shambolic build quality of latest Audi's, I'm hardly surprised. Audi have been pi**ing on our strawberries for too long and charging a premium for it. Looks to me like the chickens have come home to roost.


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## ZephyR2 (Feb 20, 2013)

Ddave said:


> Just to be factually correct about PCP. It's only for the 'economically illiterate' *IF* you are getting poorer returns on investments than the PCP costs. To state that all PCP is for muppets is a muppetry comment. If I'm keeping hold of my capital, investing it, and getting an 'interest' of around 50% (which I am) piddly little PCP plans with their 6% interest and potential of retention of capital investment means jack shit to me.


50% ? Are you investing in the Chinese market ?


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## Blade Runner (Feb 16, 2018)

Ddave said:


> Still couldn't give a sh*t about Audi shedding jobs though. Judging by some of the other posts on here about the shambolic build quality of latest Audi's, I'm hardly surprised. Audi have been pi**ing on our strawberries for too long and charging a premium for it. Looks to me like the chickens have come home to roost.


P**sing on our strawberries. Love that one, and haven't heard it before!
I think we are heading for a big shake up in the car industry with plenty of rationalisation over the next 5 years.
Does the VAG group really need 4 semi-independent brands (VW, Audi, Skoda, Seat) making very similar cars?
Same is true for the PSA group and the other huge conglomerates.
At the lower end, some independent companies are going to go the way of Saab.
The last time I counted I think there were 29 separate car brands. Not sustainable!


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## simestt (Nov 2, 2017)

Spot on. The rationalisation has already started which is why the number of models in the range is slowly and subtly declining. E.g. for VW no Scirocco; for the Audi TT, no 1.8 petrol, no diesel. Expect this to continue and to accelerate.


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## leopard (May 1, 2015)

The Scirocco was a missed opportunity imo, it could have been so much more.


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## simestt (Nov 2, 2017)

leopard said:


> The Scirocco was a missed opportunity imo, it could have been so much more.


 Yes, I completely agree. I loved mine and only sold it because it was a TDi and got caught up in the dieselgate saga. Since then I've had two petrol TTs. But I would have liked a Scirocco with 4 wheel drive, or a 6-cylinder, or a modernised interior... there's so much more that could have been done with that car. Still a great looker which catches my eye whenever I see one.


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## ZephyR2 (Feb 20, 2013)

In seems VW never planned on developing or bringing out a 2nd generation (new) Scirocco. Despite it selling well, receiving rave reviews and sparking a resurgence of interest in coupes there was never any hint of a next gen being produced. And this was long before dieselgate, and the advent of SUVs and EVs.
It received a couple of light face lifts, with features largely stolen from mods that owners had done and posted on forums, along with some new trim levels. In hindsight it appears that VW never viewed the Scirocco as a serious model in their range.


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

It was a still born offering, it was ugly and had no real place in the model range. Looks like a badly copied then rounded Volvo..
It Simply didn't do anything or offer anything you couldn't get better elsewhere and it was outdated in every way at release.


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## ross_t_boss (Feb 28, 2017)

ZephyR2 said:


> It received a couple of light face lifts, with features largely stolen from mods that owners had done and posted on forums, along with some new trim levels. In hindsight it appears that VW never viewed the Scirocco as a serious model in their range.


Funny, I thought the FL scirocco rear was where they got inspiration for the TT facelift!


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## Ddave (Mar 6, 2019)

ZephyR2 said:


> Ddave said:
> 
> 
> > Just to be factually correct about PCP. It's only for the 'economically illiterate' *IF* you are getting poorer returns on investments than the PCP costs. To state that all PCP is for muppets is a muppetry comment. If I'm keeping hold of my capital, investing it, and getting an 'interest' of around 50% (which I am) piddly little PCP plans with their 6% interest and potential of retention of capital investment means jack shit to me.
> ...


Yes, in part.

Also, pertaining to the Scirocco, anyone remember the first Vauxhall Tigra. To me the Scirocco has the same level of charisma.


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