# Last two flying Lancasters - meet in August



## brittan (May 18, 2007)

For those who may be interested:

The last two Lancaster bombers still flying in the world will come together in a series of events this summer, in a meeting unlikely to happen ever again.

The Royal Air Force Battle of Britain Memorial Flight (RAF BBMF) based at RAF Coningsby in Lincolnshire will welcome the arrival of a very special guest during August 2014 when the Canadian Warplane Heritage Museum (CWHM) fly their prized Avro Lancaster to the UK for a month long visit.

http://www.raf.mod.uk/news/archive/raf- ... d-24022014


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## spike (Dec 26, 2013)

That will be very impressive!


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## Skeee (Jun 9, 2009)

Goodwood Revival hopefully?


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## Bucks85th (Apr 27, 2009)

Will definitely make sure I get to see the two of them together!

I believe there is a 3rd capable of flight in the UK but it doesn't have an airworthiness certificate so they just bounce it on the runway.


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

Thanks for the link Brian 

Are you organising a meet up there?


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## YoungOldUn (Apr 12, 2011)

Out of all the aircraft I have witnessed over the years the most impressive was an Avro Vulcan doing low level flypasts. I have never experienced any noise or vibration like it since.


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

YoungOldUn said:


> Out of all the aircraft I have witnessed over the years the most impressive was an Avro Vulcan doing low level flypasts. I have never experienced any noise or vibration like it since.


Snap. That's my favourite aircraft too! I've seen it a few times at Woodford Airshows and the white Vulcan is still at Woodford on display, stationary though


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## prop135 (Aug 8, 2011)

The year the vulcan flew again she did a display at Waddington with the Lanc. The Canadian Lanc will be parked about 12 miles from me with City of Lincoln/Thumper, the BBMF Lanc so I for one will be visiting. They are supposed to be displaying from 14 Aug onwards so check the BBMF website for displays near you. The vulcan is flying this season and next too so if you want to hear the Vulcan howl then check the vulcan to the skies website too. I have a feeling this year might be a bit special for us spotters lol

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## YoungOldUn (Apr 12, 2011)

A3DFU said:


> Snap. That's my favourite aircraft too! I've seen it a few times at Woodford Airshows and the white Vulcan is still at Woodford on display, stationary though


I remember seeing the one at Woodford when I used to do the ocassional visit for flight safety meetings.


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

YoungOldUn said:


> Out of all the aircraft I have witnessed over the years the most impressive was an Avro Vulcan doing low level flypasts. I have never experienced any noise or vibration like it since.


i am actually old enoguh to have seen the vulcan in operation,, ( returning via N of Scotland from war games in N Sea way back i guess 76 time ) incredible,, think there were three or four of them,, and saw it again at Goodwood FoS last year,, and a Spitfire , ( and the red arrows, and the euro fighter )


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## brittan (May 18, 2007)

Don't forget the Vulcan made the longest ever bombing raid when the RAF disabled the runway at Port Stanley in the Falklands.

I recall seeing the Vulcan display over the natural amphitheatre of Plymouth Sound. It made the ground shake yet didn't seem to be flying fast enough to stay in the air.

My favourite though was the EE Lightning. As a boy I saw that several times at local air shows. They all seemed to fly faster, lower and closer to the crowd line back then.
On its last pass the pilot pulled into a vertical climb and just kept going until it disappeared from sight. The noise!!


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## ag (Sep 12, 2002)

Looking forward to seeing the Lancs together, definately a once in a lifetime event as I think the chances of another becoming airworthy is unlikely, although not impossible.

On the subject of the Vulcan, I remember them going over the house on the way to the Falklands as I was washing my Dad's car. They suddenly arrived in two groups over the hill and flew at low level very slowly along the drive and over the local church. It was over 30 years ago, but left an incredible image in my mind.


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

yes they may have flown the longest bombing raid in history,, but it really was a bit of a joke,,, three took off , two aborted, and of the nine bombs that the remaining one dropped only one narrowly hit its target,,a one sguare mile airport !!!


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

roddy said:


> yes they may have flown the longest bombing raid in history,, but it really was a bit of a joke,,, three took off , two aborted, and of the nine bombs that the remaining one dropped only one narrowly hit its target,,a one sguare mile airport !!!


Only two Vulcans took off, not three. The other plane that aborted was a tanker, but it was replaced by one of the four reserve aircraft.

I think technically all the bombs hit their target. The bombing run was chosen to cross the runway in order to ensure one bomb would hit it - obviously this strategy meant that it was unlikely that more than one bomb from each plane would hit the runway itself. In the end, one bomb hit the runway right in the middle. The other bombs did damage across the airfield (including the tower).

The reason it wasn't a particularly useful raid is because the damage to the runway was repaired within 24 hours, not because the raid itself was botched.


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## Otley (May 15, 2013)

prop135 said:


> The year the vulcan flew again she did a display at Waddington with the Lanc. The Canadian Lanc will be parked about 12 miles from me with City of Lincoln/Thumper, the BBMF Lanc so I for one will be visiting. They are supposed to be displaying from 14 Aug onwards so check the BBMF website for displays near you. The vulcan is flying this season and next too so if you want to hear the Vulcan howl then check the vulcan to the skies website too. I have a feeling this year might be a bit special for us spotters lol
> 
> Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App


I love going to Waddington, it really is a great experience. The Vulcan was superb! You don't just hear it... the sound really does go through you.  
We will all be there again this year, all my lot & hopefully my parents and in-laws.


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## spike (Dec 26, 2013)

We are confirming details, but Rally for Heroes are planning a hanger visit to see the Vulcan, where people can come along upon Donation.

I'll let you all know when we know more.

Certainly the two Lancasters will be awesome displaying together


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## YoungOldUn (Apr 12, 2011)

brittan said:


> My favourite though was the EE Lightning. As a boy I saw that several times at local air shows. They all seemed to fly faster, lower and closer to the crowd line back then.
> On its last pass the pilot pulled into a vertical climb and just kept going until it disappeared from sight. The noise!!


I remember seeing numerous Lightnings being returned from Saudi Arabia in the late eighties or early nineties, they were basically taken in part exchange for new Tornados.

The Lightning was used as a 'Chase' aircraft during the development of the Tornado and when it took off, quite often the pilot would put it into a vertical rotating climb while on full reheat.

Interesting facts about the Lightning - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Electric_Lightning


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

Vulcan near me 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-ma ... r-26337237


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

spike said:


> We are confirming details, but Rally for Heroes are planning a hanger visit to see the Vulcan, where people can come along upon Donation.
> 
> I'll let you all know when we know more.
> 
> Certainly the two Lancasters will be awesome displaying together


to compare the men who flew in lancasters over germany and the modern " heros " is an absolute disgrace !!


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## spike (Dec 26, 2013)

roddy said:


> spike said:
> 
> 
> > We are confirming details, but Rally for Heroes are planning a hanger visit to see the Vulcan, where people can come along upon Donation.
> ...


I dont think I did.

help for heroes have come up with the "hereos" marketing tool. We as Rally for Heroes, (using same marketing tool) are supporting SSAFA (Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen & Families Association )this year, the oldest forces charity, who *do* help WW2 veterans, in their old age, helping them out when things become tough, could be a stair lift, accessible bathroom, support groups, etc


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## prop135 (Aug 8, 2011)

ag said:


> Looking forward to seeing the Lancs together, definately a once in a lifetime event as I think the chances of another becoming airworthy is unlikely, although not impossible.
> 
> On the subject of the Vulcan, I remember them going over the house on the way to the Falklands as I was washing my Dad's car. They suddenly arrived in two groups over the hill and flew at low level very slowly along the drive and over the local church. It was over 30 years ago, but left an incredible image in my mind.


Just Jane is supposedly going to be made airworthy, supported by BBMF. She is in ground run working order and does daily runs during the summer at East Kirkby.

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## prop135 (Aug 8, 2011)

roddy said:


> spike said:
> 
> 
> > We are confirming details, but Rally for Heroes are planning a hanger visit to see the Vulcan, where people can come along upon Donation.
> ...


Not sure what your point is here. Politics aside, what's the difference between serviceman and women dying and being injured whilst serving their country in the 19th and now?

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## Skeee (Jun 9, 2009)

roddy said:


> spike said:
> 
> 
> > We are confirming details, but Rally for Heroes are planning a hanger visit to see the Vulcan, where people can come along upon Donation.
> ...


That comment is "an absolute disgrace" _and bollocks_!


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## spike (Dec 26, 2013)

I love the fact the lego picture is quoted lol

Modern day "heroes" are just different to past "heroes".

many soldiers have made the ultimate sacrifice for their countries, thankfully at a much lower % than in past wars.


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

very different


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## igotone (Mar 10, 2010)

roddy said:


> to compare the men who flew in lancasters over germany and the modern " heros " is an absolute disgrace !!


Why is it a disgrace? Professional soldiers obey orders and go where they're sent. Modern soldiers are no different to their WW2 counterparts in that respect. You may not agree with the politics of some of their deployments which I suspect is the reason for your quoted remark, but you can hardly lay that at the door of the men and women who put themselves in harms way just as bravely and unflinchingly as soldiers ever did, and who continue to make the ultimate sacrifice.

Why was the comparison a disgrace?


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

to regain some relevance to OP,, how can anyone compare a flight crew flying a Lancaster across Europe over enemy territory with continual risk of fighter involvement and often heavy flack with someone in an aircoditioned plane 5 miles in the sky dropping bombs an what is often a civilian populated target .


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## igotone (Mar 10, 2010)

roddy said:


> to regain some relevance to OP,, how can anyone compare a flight crew flying a Lancaster across Europe over enemy territory with continual risk of fighter involvement and often heavy flack with someone in an aircoditioned plane 5 miles in the sky dropping bombs an what is often a civilian populated target .


You never heard of the Hamburg Bombing Raids by the RAF?

*On this day in 1943, (July 28th) the worst British bombing raid on Hamburg so far virtually sets the city on fire, killing 42,000 German civilians.

On July 24, British bombers launched Operation Gomorrah, repeated bombing raids against Hamburg and its industrial and munitions plants. Sortie after sortie dropped fire from the sky, as thousands of tons of incendiary bombs destroyed tens of thousands of lives, buildings, and acreage. But the night of the 28th saw destruction unique in more than three years of bomb attacks: In just 43 minutes, 2,326 tons of bombs were dropped, creating a firestorm (a word that entered English parlance for the first time as a result of these events). Low humidity, a lack of fire-fighting resources (exhausted from battling blazes caused by the previous nights' raids), and hurricane-level winds at the core of the storm literally fanned the flames, scorching eight square miles of Hamburg.

One British flight lieutenant recalled seeing "not many fires but one... I have never seen a fire like that before and was never to see its like again." Despite the terrible loss of civilian life, there strange and awful irony: The horrific bombing runs affected Hitler's war machine only marginally. It did more to wound the morale of the German people and its army officers than it did to the production of munitions, which was back running full speed within a matter of weeks.*


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## prop135 (Aug 8, 2011)

roddy said:


> to regain some relevance to OP,, how can anyone compare a flight crew flying a Lancaster across Europe over enemy territory with continual risk of fighter involvement and often heavy flack with someone in an aircoditioned plane 5 miles in the sky dropping bombs an what is often a civilian populated target .


Roddy, no offence mate but the RAF has not had an altitude bombing capability for over 30 years. I served 20 years of those in the RAF so know what I am talk about. You seem to have a very strange idea of what our Armed Forces do and how they operate. The vast majority of the people injured and killed did so serving their country but more importantly not letting their mates down. Is that something you can say you have done? I think it might be a good idea to drop this conversation there are probably a number of ex and serving members on this forum and we will all know someone who has lost their life for friends and country.

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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

thank you igitone,but I do know of Dresden and Hamburg , and the great brittish " hero " bomber harris, etc etc,, are you using that as some sort of acceptable precedent,,,,,,,
and no, obviously I have not died supporting my friends in some foreign land where in all likelihood fighting some poorly armed and ill organised natives trying to rid themselves of a foreign colonial power,,, Aden , Cyprus , Ireland, umpteen places in Africa etc etc, whose atrocities are just now coming to light..heros ?, maybe in the modern quasi American war glorifying culture, but not in the traditional manner.


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## igotone (Mar 10, 2010)

Roddy,

WW2 was a total global war and one which we HAD to win against a totally ruthless enemy. Bomber Harris took the war to the German people who indeed paid the price for following a mad man. War is a ruthless business which you don't win playing by a set of boy scout rules - Hitler had no mercy on the people of London or Coventry.

I'm not saying Hamburg was an acceptable precedent, I'm simply making the point that soldiers then, as now, follow orders and do what they have to do. You still haven't explained why it was a disgrace to make the comparison between soldiers then and now.

You've made it fairly obvious in the past that you're no great fan of our armed forces, so perhaps you'd care to explain just why, unless you simply want live in some Utopia where the playground bully never bothers you?


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

believe me igitone,, I do know some history,,, :wink: ,, incidentally, do you know who it was that funded the " mad man " and made his rise possible.


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## igotone (Mar 10, 2010)

roddy said:


> believe me igitone,, I do know some history,,, :wink: ,, incidentally, do you know who it was that funded the " mad man " and made his rise possible.


LOL. Wonga.com?

Anyway - straying aimlessly back on topic, I'd love to see those Lancasters in the air - what an awesome sight and sound! 8)


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

igitone,, just to be precise,, "we" did not "win" WW2,, in fact it was the Russians who destroyed the Germans as a military force and would have routed them into the Bay of Biscay had the yankies not come in flags a flying and bugles a blowing .


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## igotone (Mar 10, 2010)

roddy said:


> igitone,, just to be precise,, "we" did not "win" WW2,, in fact it was the Russians who destroyed the Germans as a military force and would have routed them into the Bay of Biscay had the yankies not come in flags a flying and bugles a blowing .


I think America coming into the war played a large part and if nothing else, -shortening it considerably with the resources the US could throw at it. Hitler made a huge mistake invading Russia - no doubt about that and once they recovered from the initial onslaught and began to advance I think victory would have been ours anyway it would just have taken longer.

You can't claim 'we' didn't play a huge part - the RAF during the Battle Of Britain all but obliterated the Luftwaffe, to the point that it was unable to provide air support to it's troops on the Russian front where Germany suffered appalling losses and the tide turned.

The final victory went to the allied forces and you can't dismiss the part individual nations played.


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

I don't think the yankies were ever even needed at all, and only jumped in when it was obvious that the Russians had all but beaten the Germans and were scared that if they ( the yankies ) didn't get involved then the russians would have taken over the whole of Europe and comunisim would have been the major force in mainland Europe. before you take too much from the " history by the victors " of the run up to and the events of WW2 it might be worth looking into who actually funded the rise of Hitler,, and then ask yourself why.. [smiley=book2.gif]


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## prop135 (Aug 8, 2011)

Really? The yanks were not needed? So where was all our food and raw materials coming from then? Where were the ships that transported them built? What about the escort ships and long range aircraft that protected the convoys? I suppose in your world those things magically appeared? If it wasn't for the involvement of the US then we couldn't have supplied the things the Russians needed to survive long enough to launch a counter offensive nor open a second front in Europe. Russia would have been facing millions more men and equipment. You claim to know history but seem to have some massive blind spots

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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

roddy said:


> it might be worth looking into who actually funded the rise of Hitler,, and then ask yourself why.. [smiley=book2.gif]


Hitler was funded, in part, by industrialists from various countries (amusingly, George Bush's grandfather being one of them), presumably as they felt this was the best way to combat the communism which would have affected their ability to make money. I'm not sure how this relates to the people who were fighting in the war though.


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

it does not relate directly to the real heros who fought and died, (, 25million Russians,, couple of thousand yankies ,) apart from the fact that as nearly all wars the whole pretext was based on a lie, and they were nothing more than cannon fodder .


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

roddy said:


> they were nothing more than cannon fodder .


Which surely makes their actions even more heroic?


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## Bucks85th (Apr 27, 2009)

roddy said:


> I don't think the yankies were ever even needed at all, and only jumped in when it was obvious that the Russians had all but beaten the Germans and were scared that if they ( the yankies ) didn't get involved then the russians would have taken over the whole of Europe and comunisim would have been the major force in mainland Europe. before you take too much from the " history by the victors " of the run up to and the events of WW2 it might be worth looking into who actually funded the rise of Hitler,, and then ask yourself why.. [smiley=book2.gif]


In addition to Prop's mention of the supplies the US sent under the Marshall Plan/Lend-Lease some of which was diverted to the USSR via the arctic convoys, it also wasn't clear in December '41 that the Russians had Germany beaten. Operation Barbarossa started in June '41 so only a few months before the US declared war on the Axis powers. The real turning point was Stalingrad and the Germans weren't beaten here until early '43.


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

Spandex said:


> roddy said:
> 
> 
> > they were nothing more than cannon fodder .
> ...


they were real heroes,, not like todays mercinaries who think they are tough guys swaning off on turkey shoots knocking fk out of poorly armed and dissorganised peasants , natives and camel drivers !!


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

of course the yankies were ready to come in,, they knew they would have to eventually,, either to stop the commies or to stop the monster that they had created to do their dirty work for them if they were successful !!!
oh and I do know about the mormunsk convoys,, my father was on them , I also know about the massive war machine which was behind the Urals.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

roddy said:


> swaning off on turkey shoots knocking fk out of poorly armed and dissorganised peasants , natives and camel drivers !!


I can't really work out who's side you're on. You seem to have slated both sides of the war there.

So what makes one a hero and the other not? Does it just come down to whether or not you agree with the politics of the situation?


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## prop135 (Aug 8, 2011)

roddy said:


> Spandex said:
> 
> 
> > roddy said:
> ...


Strange, I haven't faced any disorganised or poorly armed peasants or camel drivers on any of the operations I was on during my service. Which Ops were you on when you saw all these things?

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## prop135 (Aug 8, 2011)

roddy said:


> it does not relate directly to the real heros who fought and died, (, 25million Russians,, couple of thousand yankies ,) apart from the fact that as nearly all wars the whole pretext was based on a lie, and they were nothing more than cannon fodder .


So the Russians are the real heroes in your opinion based on they managed to get more of their population killed than any other than Poland. You have some very odd views. Do you get all of your facts from the Guardian by any chance or do you prefer the red top comics?

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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

honestly,, do you understand English or do you just make up your rubbish as you go along,, try to concentrate a little harder and you might understand what is being said !!


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

roddy said:


> they were real heroes,, not like todays mercinaries who think they are tough guys swaning off on turkey shoots knocking fk out of poorly armed and dissorganised peasants , natives and camel drivers !!


I wasn't aware they had this choice. Last I checked troops just did what they were told :?


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

I think that ' excuse " was tried at Nuremberg,, didn't count for much there ,, or does it depend which side you are on :?


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## spike (Dec 26, 2013)

roddy said:


> I think that ' excuse " was tried at Nuremberg,, didn't count for much there ,, or does it depend which side you are on :?


I think it depends upon your rank, and if you followed the rules of war, as agreed by Geneva convection.


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## prop135 (Aug 8, 2011)

roddy said:


> honestly,, do you understand English or do you just make up your rubbish as you go along,, try to concentrate a little harder and you might understand what is being said !!


I understand English perfectly as for making it up, well I was there during some of what we are discussing so I am not making those bits up. Also I was directly responding to your comments. For instance where you said that 25 Russians and a couple of thousand yanks were heroes. Weirdly no Commonwealth heroes then according to you. So far I think I have been fairly restrained given that you have continually insulted my friends. Dead, injured, ex and still serving.

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## prop135 (Aug 8, 2011)

25m Russians that should say

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## spike (Dec 26, 2013)

Roddy is infamous for his controversial views and remarks. :lol:


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

thank you Spike !!!


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## prop135 (Aug 8, 2011)

Its lucky he lives in a country where people are prepared to fight and sometimes die to protect his right to freedom of speech really. God forbid he had to live with the disorganised peasant camel herders.


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

prop135 said:


> roddy said:
> 
> 
> > honestly,, do you understand English or do you just make up your rubbish as you go along,, try to concentrate a little harder and you might understand what is being said !!
> ...


I am sorry that you chose to misconstrue the point,, it was meant as a comparison of who was actually involved in the fighting,, and yes I did leave out all the other nationalities who were forced at the point of a gun to fight for other peoples freedom,, that list would have taken all day,,
in reference to your " friends :,, just how friendly were you with the " heros " who shot the civilians on the streets of Derry on that day ? or raped the women in Nigeria, etc etc,,, are you really trying to compare those parachute members with the men who earned them their real reputation in WW2


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

" fighting and dying for freedom of speech ",,,,, what,, huh,, all the wars for the last 50 years have been about controlling oil reserves,,, today,, thanks to the work of paid mercaneries we have less rights and freedoms than we have had for a long time,,,this , and western , countries are on virtual clamp down due to reprisals and revenge attacks by people we have been abusing for years. thanks but no thanks ..


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## prop135 (Aug 8, 2011)

roddy said:


> prop135 said:
> 
> 
> > roddy said:
> ...


I am not misconstruing anything. At no point before this have you stated who you refer to when you state "not real heroes, Disgraceful and mercenaries" you also generalise when you talk about disorganised (vary rarely can this be used to describe any of the threats faced by the Armed Forces in the last 30 years) peasant, camel herders which becomes region specific and has nothing to do with either Derry or Nigeria.

No I am not friends with anybody who was involved in either of the previously stated situations, I wasn't there and only have public source information to base my position on, the same as you. There is a significant difference between a few people abusing their position and committing acts that are illegal over the hundreds of thousands of servicemen who have faced a determined, committed enemy fighting an asymmetric war while still maintaining the "rule of law" which the vast majority do. You have chosen the actions of a very small proportion, of soldiers to tar every serviceman and woman who has served since the second world war.

Yes there were atrocities carried out by the British Armed Forces, during every conflict ever fought. It is not, however the norm. I do not condone these actions, in fact I find them repulsive and dishonourable to the rest of the Armed forces. BUT neither of us were there on know the truth of the situation other than the version of the truth that the press reported and subsequently came out in conflicting reports from those who were there.

Lets take a single situation, as you seem to like to do, somewhere in the middle of the period we are talking about. Murbat in 1972, 9 British and Commonwealth soldiers fought off over 400 heavily armed enemy (I make no reference to rebels, insurgents etc because that is a point of view) They protected a town of Omani's when none of the Omani soldiers would fight. 3 died, using your logic and generalisations you claim they are not heroes. They could have retreated but hundreds of civilians would have died. They chose not to. I would argue that is what a hero is, someone who puts others first even at risk of their own lives. According to you, these guys were mercenaries.

In fact off the top of my head I cant think of the last time the UK took on poorly armed peasants I think it was sometime prior to the Boer War, certainly well before my time, which we can safely say is from the Falklands on.


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## prop135 (Aug 8, 2011)

roddy said:


> " fighting and dying for freedom of speech ",,,,, what,, huh,, all the wars for the last 50 years have been about controlling oil reserves,,, today,, thanks to the work of paid mercaneries we have less rights and freedoms than we have had for a long time,,,this , and western , countries are on virtual clamp down due to reprisals and revenge attacks by people we have been abusing for years. thanks but no thanks ..


Aden, Malaya, Belize, Korea, Oman, NI, various east Africa conflicts, Suez, Malaysia, Falklands, Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghan.....sorry where is the oil in these.

I will give you Gulf 1 and 2, which were definitely Oil related.

again your facts were off.

as for not dying for freedom of speech, you think this is clamped down. You have absolutely no idea of what clamped down is. I suggest you go and look up the aims of terrorism then work out how different things would have been if we didn't get involved. Oh and the most terrorism we faced came from people who asked Britain to send its Armed forces to protect them, then spent 30 years killing us mainly rather than civilians.


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## prop135 (Aug 8, 2011)

roddy said:


> thanks to the work of paid mercenaries


 Oh, by the way, mercenaries are paid by definition. There is no such thing as an unpaid mercenary. If they are in the service of a country as part of that countries armed forces, they are not mercenaries either as a mercenary is defined as a person who takes part in an armed conflict, who is not a national or a party to the conflict and is "motivated to take part in the hostilities by the desire for private gain.

So to be clear are you referring to the Armed Forces as mercenaries or are you referring to Private Military Companies who are frequently found in conflict zones nowadays?


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

hard to believe " we " have been involved in so many overseas actions,, but i fail to see how any of them are for " queen and country " even if that as a viable reason,,,,,,, i do believe that during them there have many cases of true bravery ,valour and heroic deeds ( as well as atrocities ),, and to some extent i respect these men,, but being a hero to me is more that just putting on a uniform and being prepared to shoot and kill another person simply because you are being told to do it,,,to me that is more like a physcopath , and lets face it,, many of these men love what they are doing.


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## prop135 (Aug 8, 2011)

roddy said:


> hard to believe " we " have been involved in so many overseas actions,, but i fail to see how any of them are for " queen and country " even if that as a viable reason,,,,,,, i do believe that during them there have many cases of true bravery ,valour and heroic deeds ( as well as atrocities ),, and to some extent i respect these men,, but being a hero to me is more that just putting on a uniform and being prepared to shoot and kill another person simply because you are being told to do it,,,to me that is more like a physcopath , and lets face it,, many of these men love what they are doing.


Yet, to take it back to your original point you feel they crews in the bombers during WW2 were heroes (I do too for the record). But they were men who put on a uniform and killed others because they were told to. Your decision on what makes a hero appears to be driven by the political reasons for going to war. War, by definition is the achievement of political aims through the use of force. The right or wrongness of the war does not determine if someone in the armed forces is a hero. The actions of the indvidual determines it. That is the point I was trying to make and it doesn't just apply to the armed forces either. You see it in every walk of life from schools and hospitals to just walking down the street. Someone will be going above and beyond for someone else. It just doesn't get the same coverage or recognition

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