# Neutral when sitting still? Coasting?



## MoreGooderTT (Aug 20, 2011)

Hello fellow TT drivers. I've ordered my TT Friday, and have few question regarding the S-Tronic transmission. I want to be fully educated on every aspect of the TT *before* I take delivery.

When driving my Acura RSX-S I have the habit of putting the manual transmission in a neutral position and coasting down very long highway hills. I see it as less wear and tear on the engine and transmission, with the side benefit of lower fuel consumption. I also put the transmission in neutral at stop lights.

So, question #1 pertains to Neutral:
The knowledge base article http://www.********.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=208454 indicates that you should put the S-Tronic system into neutral when sitting at a traffic light or whenever the car is stationary for prolonged periods. I'm fine with that, but does the TT"s DSG computer know that I'm coasting and simply put itself into neutral? If I forget to put the car in neutral at a stop light, does it put itself into neutral after a certain time has lapsed?

Question #2 pertains to Stop-and-Go:
In a conventional manual, I would have to "feather" my clutch with the transmission in first gear to keep up in stop-and-go traffic. How does the S-Tronic system handle this? Do I need to switch back and forth from drive to park constantly?

Thanks TT Experts. Even though I just joined the forums just yesterday, this group has already helped me in many ways over the past month. I look forward to the replies!


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## Ikon66 (Sep 12, 2003)

I always put into neutral at lights or ext stops

The box won't go into neutral on it's own when coasting and as to your logic than putting a car in neutral and coasting will save petrol is untrue as petrol is used to keep the engine running. Coasting to a junction or downhill with the car in drive will keep the engine turning with no use of petrol 

I've never coasted the stronic in neutral not sure it may be good for the haldex, may be wrong tho :?

Hope that helps


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## Ikon66 (Sep 12, 2003)

In slow moving traffic I just let the car creep by just using the brake


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## powerplay (Feb 8, 2008)

Welcome and congratulations on your TT. What Spec btw?

Ok, firstly you should NEVER coast. End of.

The BEST most economical way of driving your TT - or any car for that matter - is to read the road ahead and try to use the brakes as little as possible, ALWAYS engine brake as much as possible.

You say you think you are getting better fuel economy when you pop it in neutral and coast down a hill? Maybe if you have **very** long hills and you aren't intending to stop, but generally it is better to leave in gear and use the engine to brake your speed. Virtually all modern engines have automatic fuel shut-off in these situations so, for example, engine braking up to the next set of lights is more economical than coasting as the engine will be using ZERO fuel instead of a small amount to keep it ticking over.

And unless you plan on owning the car forever and running it into the ground, any saving of mechanical wear is negligible at best.

In stop-start traffic, you don't worry about the clutch at all. The s-tronic gearbox has many sensors and complicated "mechatronics" that handle all this for you. you just leave it in D and hold the car on the foot brake when stopped. If you lift off the brake the car will creep forward as the clutch plates are always partially engaged when in D.

the amount of time you can/should hold the car stationary on the brake for is not clearly defined but the general rule is anywhere from 5-15 seconds. If you are going to be stationary more than that just pop into N - common sense really. When you need to move, foot on the brake, pop into D, then lift off the brake.

I'm sure you'll enjoy your TT and very quickly become accustomed to the s-tronic way of working!


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## powerplay (Feb 8, 2008)

Actually the box will go into N when driving and technically you can coast - there is even a paragraph in the manual about what to do if this happens. You should just avoid doing it, that's all.

I've done it a few times in my very first s-tronic. Thought I'd got it in M mode and went to change up with the shifter...oops car goes into neutral. Doh! :lol:


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## MoreGooderTT (Aug 20, 2011)

Excellent replies, thanks.

I only coast on looooong down hill slopes, and do indeed use engine braking when possible. Interesting, though, about the zero fuel use when the engine is engaged but with no foot on the gas. That's engine braking though, not coasting.

Anyway... Doesn't sound like neutral coasting is the thing to do in a TT. I can live with that. It sounds like it is more effort than it is worth.

I'll take the advice from powerplay and just remember to use Neutral when sitting still for > 5 seconds. I'm still concerned about those times when I forget this rule. I've driven traditional slushbox automatics before, and never heard anyone advise to put them into neutral. Perhaps this is something specific to the DSG gearbox?

Since powerplay asked, here are my specs:
MY2012 Audi TT "Premium Plus" US Spec. (comes with 2.0TFSI E888 engine and Quatro as standard, and a million other cool things. I can't believe what you get with the base model. AMAZING)
Magnetic Ride
Heated Seats
Brilliant Black
18" 5 spoke alloys (Eventually, I will be using them for Winter tires, and buying other wheels for all-season tires).
Black interior with Alcantara seats.

I wish it was parked in my driveway right now. Wait... no. It wouldn't be in my driveway to begin with. It would be on a twisty road somewhere with me behind the wheel. In Sport mode.


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## powerplay (Feb 8, 2008)

MoreGooderTT said:


> I'm still concerned about those times when I forget this rule. I've driven traditional slushbox automatics before, and never heard anyone advise to put them into neutral. Perhaps this is something specific to the DSG gearbox?


Absolutely. a "traditional slush box" didn't acquire its name due to owners being fond of Slush Puppies (that's a crushed-ice drink btw).

A conventional auto has ZERO physical connection between the engine and gearbox (except for some that will physically lock input/ouput shafts when speeds are matched to improve economy). Power is transmitted from the engine to the Torque Converter. This converts the engine torque onto an output shaft to the gearbox, by means of bladed impellers driven in an oil bath. The output shaft can be held stationary (by the car being in gear) and with the engine idling, no adverse effects exist.

Contrary with DSG, there are two physical clutches which are in principle mechanically identical to a manually operated clutch. When in Drive mode, there is always a physical connection between drive and driven clutch plates. When stationary, the clamping pressure is reduced but torque is still transmitted, and for this reason it is advisable to engage Neutral rather than remain in gear for prolonged periods of time.


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## MoreGooderTT (Aug 20, 2011)

Powerplay.

That's excellent information, and I thank you. I consider myself adequately educated on the DSG now, thanks to the help of yourself and others that have posted comments in my thread.

I just wish I could walk out to my driveway right now, get in it and drive. It's been 2 1/2 days since I ordered it and I'm already impatient! :lol:


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## fasterthanlight (Nov 30, 2011)

Isn't it strange how the Owner's Manual doesn't actively mention shifting into Neutral as part of the way you need to drive the car. It talks about "Stopping briefly - for instance at traffic lights, apply the footbrake", which suggests you don't need to bother and can drive it like a normal Auto. But then it does say that in stop-and-go traffic, or if the car creeps forwards over a long distance, the gearbox can overheat.

I've only had my new car for a week and have been driving it like a normal Auto so far, i.e. put it in "D" and forget about it. However, having read this thread, next time I'm stopped at a light, I think I will be shifting to Neutral, just to be on the safe side.


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## MoreGooderTT (Aug 20, 2011)

fasterthanlight said:


> Isn't it strange how the Owner's Manual doesn't actively mention shifting into Neutral as part of the way you need to drive the car. It talks about "Stopping briefly - for instance at traffic lights, apply the footbrake", which suggests you don't need to bother and can drive it like a normal Auto. But then it does say that in stop-and-go traffic, or if the car creeps forwards over a long distance, the gearbox can overheat.
> 
> I've only had my new car for a week and have been driving it like a normal Auto so far, i.e. put it in "D" and forget about it. However, having read this thread, next time I'm stopped at a light, I think I will be shifting to Neutral, just to be on the safe side.


Yup. I read the owner's manual yesterday and noticed that too. But, have you noticed that when you let your foot off the brake, the car doesn't start creeping forward immediately? There's a slight delay. I wonder if they've programmed the transmission controller such that when you're stopped completely for X seconds, the transmission puts itself into neutral without "telling" you. That would also explain why there is a slight delay from a dead stop (more so than compared to starting after creep has started). Does any of that make sense? Hard to explain.

One other thing I noticed: When you start from a dead stop, you can hear and feel a click just underneath the shifter. I think that might be part of the controls doing there thing to not burn up the transmssion.

I might call Audi of America and see if I can get a definitive answer to this question.


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## ScoobyTT (Aug 24, 2009)

It probably does, as I seem to recall a bit of a clunk. The manual does advise against leaving the car on the footbrake for extended periods of time in drive though. Regarding coasting, I wouldn't do it. The engine management system reduces fuel to the engine when it's not under strain anyway so will have the same effect. You'll notice the fuel economy jump to over 110mpg or even "---" when it can't be bothered to display any more.


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## wkhkelvin (May 27, 2009)

MoreGooderTT said:


> So, question #1 pertains to Neutral:
> The knowledge base article http://www.********.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=208454 indicates that you should put the S-Tronic system into neutral when sitting at a traffic light or whenever the car is stationary for prolonged periods. I'm fine with that, but does the TT"s DSG computer know that I'm coasting and simply put itself into neutral? If I forget to put the car in neutral at a stop light, does it put itself into neutral after a certain time has lapsed?


From the kb, "The twin-clutch transmission, also known as the Direct Shift Gearbox (DSG), R-Tronic or S-Tronic, is an automated transmissin that can change gears faster than any other geared transmission."

Please correct me if I am wrong...I thought the R-Tronic from the R8 is single clutch only!?


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## powerplay (Feb 8, 2008)

wkhkelvin said:


> MoreGooderTT said:
> 
> 
> > So, question #1 pertains to Neutral:
> ...


Yes that's right, whoever wrote that in KB article is wrong.


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## MoreGooderTT (Aug 20, 2011)

I stopped by the dealer today. According the one of the maintenance techs, it is not necessary to put the car into neutral when at a light. The transmission will not apply power until after you release the brake. This explains why there's a slight delay between when you lift off the brake and when the car starts to creep forward.

I'm going to email Audi USA to get a confirmation, and post back with any replies.


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## powerplay (Feb 8, 2008)

That's not quite right. If you go from N to D then lift your foot, there is a slight delay as it finds the biting point after being in neutral BUT if you are in D, use the foot brake and then lift off the brake, there is no delay, the car will be "tugging at the reins" as you start to reduce pressure on the brake pedal.

My RS "tugs" harder than any previous DSG car I've had, I can creep along in traffic quite happily with my foot on the brake, ie, brake lights on but I'm still rolling at 2-3mph with moderate brake pedal pressure.

All the while you are on the foot brake after coming to a stop, the transmission will be biting until you shift to N.


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## ScoobyTT (Aug 24, 2009)

powerplay said:


> That's not quite right. If you go from N to D then lift your foot, there is a slight delay as it finds the biting point after being in neutral BUT if you are in D, use the foot brake and then lift off the brake, there is no delay, the car will be "tugging at the reins" as you start to reduce pressure on the brake pedal.


^^ This. That's what I remember experiencing now... a clunk when going into D but I also remember being able to brake and creep along in traffic with it in D in stop-start traffic without the bite. This is why the manual advises not to leave the car in D on the footbrake when waiting in traffic - it doesn't do it any good. It's the automatic equivalent of keeping your clutch on the biting point with the brakes on.


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## MoreGooderTT (Aug 20, 2011)

OK, I need to revive this slightly old thread with some news.

Audi of America responded to my online inquiry on this topic. According to the voicemail, the S-Tronic transmission is automatically put into neutral when the vehicle is at rest. There's no need to put the car into neutral yourself.

So, that takes a bit of the worry out of owning an S-Tronic. Still, I think it can't possibly hurt to put it into neutral when sitting for a long time. Or Park for that matter.


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## igotone (Mar 10, 2010)

Well that's a bit of useful information as I pick up my S tronic TTS on Wednesday so it has removed a bit of a niggling question in my mind.

With regard to the question of coasting in neutral though - just don't do it - ever! Put simply, you're no longer driving, you're just rolling with an enormous aid to safety - acceleration, no longer an option. I was once punched mercilessly by a 17 stone police driving instructor for coasting downhill. He was laughing like a drain all the while he knocked the crap out of me, but he definitely got his point across.


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## brittan (May 18, 2007)

MoreGooderTT said:


> the S-Tronic transmission is automatically put into neutral when the vehicle is at rest.


Interesting comment and something I can't recall happening on my last TT which was S-Tronic.

*Creep control*
"Creep" refers to the creep behaviour which a conventional automatic gearboxes with a torque converter exhibits when the engine is idling and a gear is selected.

The creep control function works like this: when the engine is idling and a gear is selected, a defined slip torque is set at the clutch (clutch torque) causing the vehicle to "creep". This allows the vehicle to be manoeuvred (e.g. when parking) without using the accelerator pedal, thus enhancing driving comfort.

The vehicle behaves as one would expect an automatic gearbox to. The clutch torque is adjusted to between 1 and 40 Nm, depending on the driving condition and vehicle road speed.

A *special feature of the creep control* is that of reduced clutch torque at vehicle standstill with the brake applied, whereby less torque is required of the engine (the clutch is further open).
Clutch torque is reduced to approx. 1 Nm, depending on the brake pressure. The tendency of the vehicle to creep is reduced accordingly.

This has a positive effect on fuel efficiency and comfort, because the vehicle has better acoustics when at a standstill and considerably less brake pressure is required to hold the vehicle.

If the stationary vehicle begins to roll back on an incline with the brake only lightly applied, clutch torque will be increased *slightly*. The vehicle must be held by increasing the brake pressure or by applying the handbrake.
The vehicle behaves as one would expect a normal manual gearbox to.


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## MoreGooderTT (Aug 20, 2011)

I have observed about a one to 1.5 second delay between lifting off the break at full stop and when the creep begins. I think this is why it is not neccessary to put the car in neutral. Perhaps the engineers at Audi have introduced this function since your last TT.


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## powerplay (Feb 8, 2008)

If the transmission was actually put into neutral automatically (or at least clutch fully disengaged) with the brake firmly pressed then you would not expect to feel or hear any difference in engine tone when you then physically selected N.

I do, therefore I conclude there is ALWAYS some partial clutch pressure/slippage going on with D selected and foot on brake, the exception to which, as mentioned, is when selecting D from N/P where there can be a slight delay observed in taking up the drive.


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## brittan (May 18, 2007)

MoreGooderTT said:


> Perhaps the engineers at Audi have introduced this function since your last TT.


I don't think so. I think what you've been told about the gearbox being automatically put into neutral is complete ballcocks.

At standstill with the engine running and in D there is a defined slip in the clutch, as per my previous post. Remaining in this position for a protracted period may lead to overheating of the oil flow through the clutch assembly, hence the recommendation to put the transmission in N if stopped for a long time. Equally holding the car on an incline by balancing the throttle (no brake used) can also overheat the oil.

The initial temp limit is 160 °C and if this is reached the clutch is activated intermittently which is perceived by the driver as a heavy shudder. This "warning shudder" should prompt the driver to abort drive-away and thus avert further
increases in clutch temperature.
Ignore that warning and the next level of protection is invoked as the temperature rises further which leaves the engine with no power.
The effect of aborting drive away allows full oil flow through the clutch, it cools and normal operation is restored.

Incidentally I think that the slight delay when going from N to D is because in P and N, reverse and second gears are selected so when you go to D the system must deselect R and 2 and select 1st gear ready to pull away.


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## MoreGooderTT (Aug 20, 2011)

Interesting comments.

I, too, hear a slight difference in the sound of the car, neutral compared to D at full stop.

Perhaps Audi considers the very slight bite of the transmission is not enough to call it fully engaged. This would be closer, in essence, to "neutral" than it would be to "drive". Thus, they claim it's in "neutral" when in reality it's in slight slip. This is speculative, but based on the audible difference between Drive and Neutral when at a stop light, I think we have a strong case for a bit concern.

So, now we have a question to ask ourselves. How long is "too long" for us to sit at a light with the car in D rather than N? 20 seconds? 2 minutes? Does it matter if it's a cold winter day or blazing August? We're now asked to guess and surmise, rather than have the real story. I think Audi should know that the typical TT driver is one that is particularly keen on cars and their inner workings. We also want to treat our babies right, and don't particurly enjoy sitting in the waiting room at the dealer for repairs.

I'll give them another call. I have the voicemail stored, and will call back the exact same person for more information.


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## MoreGooderTT (Aug 20, 2011)

brittan said:


> Incidentally I think that the slight delay when going from N to D is because in P and N, reverse and second gears are selected so when you go to D the system must deselect R and 2 and select 1st gear ready to pull away.


Just so we're not confused, the slight delay I was referring to is not between putting the car into D from N; It's the delay you feel when you lift your foot of the brake while in D to when the car starts to pull forward.


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## MoreGooderTT (Aug 20, 2011)

Another way of approaching this:

The S-Tronic gear box is really just an automatically controlled manual transmisson. It is not a "slush box" automatic. Therefore, sitting still in D is the same as having your foot deep into the clutch and holding it right at the point where it starts to bite. Audi may argue that the sound has nothing to do with the clutch plates being engaged though. We know that there's a central gear that attempts to stay synchronized with the drive shaft. Perhaps that's the sound we hear. I'm guessing though. (I really hate guessing)

When I talk to Audi, I'll ask them to explain the audible difference we hear. IF they provide a convincing and highly technical answer, perhaps we can put this issue to rest.


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## Wallsendmag (Feb 12, 2004)

MoreGooderTT said:


> Another way of approaching this:
> 
> The S-Tronic gear box is really just an automatically controlled manual transmisson. It is not a "slush box" automatic. Therefore, sitting still in D is the same as having your foot deep into the clutch and holding it right at the point where it starts to bite. Audi may argue that the sound has nothing to do with the clutch plates being engaged though. We know that there's a central gear that attempts to stay synchronized with the drive shaft. Perhaps that's the sound we hear. I'm guessing though. (I really hate guessing)
> 
> When I talk to Audi, I'll ask them to explain the audible difference we hear. IF they provide a convincing and highly technical answer, perhaps we can put this issue to rest.


Can you not feel a difference when the brake is pressed ?


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## MoreGooderTT (Aug 20, 2011)

wallsendmag said:


> Can you not feel a difference when the brake is pressed ?


No, I can't.


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## powerplay (Feb 8, 2008)

To be honest I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill.

We all know and agree the gearbox is a highly complicated piece of equipment but in essence just does what you would do when operating a manual.

We know from practical experience that there is always some degree of clutch pressure applied when braked in D, and however much or little this is, it is certainly not "neutral".

Ask yourself how long you would be prepared sitting stationary and feathering the clutch against the bite point if you were driving a manual (pretend you were on a slight gradient) and just drive the same way.

My answer to that question is "no more than a few seconds" (and "few" to me means 5 ), so when I am in traffic and I see I am going nowhere for a few seconds, into N it goes.

And I would never ever sit stationary holding the car on the brake in D for as long as 20 seconds.


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## igotone (Mar 10, 2010)

LOL. One of my pet hates is drivers sitting in front of me through a whole traffic light sequence with their foot on the brake - burning your eyeballs out of your head!


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## igotone (Mar 10, 2010)

This is from ROSPA - advice on the use of auto gearboxes and expectations of how they should be used in advanced driving tests....

*When stationary in traffic, even for many minutes, it is not necessary to move the gear lever into neutral because the torque converter absorbs the engine's propulsion force but does not transmit it all to the gearbox. No wear is taking place. In fact, more wear will take place if you engage neutral then engage a drive gear when it is possible to move off. Most gearboxes will automatically select first gear when the vehicle becomes stationary.*

The full PDF file is here....

http://www.rospa.com/roadsafety/info/au ... rboxes.pdf


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## brittan (May 18, 2007)

Fair enough - but S-Tronic does not have a torque converter. 
There are two concentric oil bathed (cooled) multi-plate clutches.


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## igotone (Mar 10, 2010)

brittan said:


> Fair enough - but S-Tronic does not have a torque converter.
> There are two concentric oil bathed (cooled) multi-plate clutches.


That's true, but I think they cover the fact that there are various types of auto boxes and I think the torque converter reference was a broad generalisation. For what it's worth during an enforced prolonged stoppage I'd snick the handbrake on purely because I think sitting with your foot on the brake during a prolonged stoppage is grossly inconsiderate to the person behind you.


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## powerplay (Feb 8, 2008)

igotone said:


> This is from ROSPA - advice on the use of auto gearboxes and expectations of how they should be used in advanced driving tests....
> 
> *When stationary in traffic, even for many minutes, it is not necessary to move the gear lever into neutral because the torque converter absorbs the engine's propulsion force but does not transmit it all to the gearbox. No wear is taking place. In fact, more wear will take place if you engage neutral then engage a drive gear when it is possible to move off. Most gearboxes will automatically select first gear when the vehicle becomes stationary.*
> 
> ...


That article is out of date and clearly* does not* pertain to the DSG or similar dual-clutch systems, every derivative named is a specific manufacturer's branding for a typical slush box transmission. I would respectfully suggest it is irrelevant and should be ignored for the purpose of this discussion.


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## igotone (Mar 10, 2010)

powerplay said:


> igotone said:
> 
> 
> > This is from ROSPA - advice on the use of auto gearboxes and expectations of how they should be used in advanced driving tests....
> ...


Well to be fair - Wikipedia bears out what you're saying although it doesn't give the source of it's information.

*"N"
N position of the floor-mounted shift lever means that the transmission is in "neutral". Similar to P above, both clutch packs and all gear-sets are fully disengaged, however the parking lock is disengaged. This position should be used when the motor vehicle is stationary for a period of time, such as at red traffic lights, or waiting in a queue of stationary traffic.[19] The DSG should not be held in any of the active gear modes while stationary using the footbrake for other than brief periods - due to the clutches being held on the bite point, as this can overheat the clutches and transmission fluid. This position also allows the engine to be restarted (in some cars needing the key to be partially disengaged) which cannot be done in any of the active modes.[19]*

It's strange that if this was likely to cause damage that it's not covered in the TT users manual - all I can see is the general advice that during brief stoppages the footbrake should be applied. I do think we're making hard work of this though and it's more a matter of common sense. I can't believe that as someone said above that with a stoppage of more than 5 seconds we should select neutral, which (on all but level ground) means footbrake/handbrake/neutral and the reverse procedure each time we drive off - just the sort of poo *** procedure in stop/go traffic that auto transmissions are meant to avoid surely? You might as well be driving a manual box.

If the stoppage is obviously going to be more prolonged then I can certainly see the case for going into neutral and applying the handbrake if only to relax and rest your foot.


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## MoreGooderTT (Aug 20, 2011)

igotone said:


> powerplay said:
> 
> 
> > igotone said:
> ...


And, let's not forget that Audi America customer service answered my inquiry. "It is not necessary to put the car into neutral when stopped". So, I think I'm in the middle ground here. If I'm at a rediculously long traffic light, or stuck on the highway with an accident up ahead, I'll put it into neutral. Otherwise, I'd just rather not be paranoid and pull the gear back and forth from drive to neutral like a mad man.

I won't go as far as to use the hand brake in lieu of the brake peddal for two reasons: First, it is likely that I might forget to disengage the hand brake, and secondly, I don't want a bad driver behind me thinking I'm moving rather than fully stopped.


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## brittan (May 18, 2007)

MoreGooderTT said:


> And, let's not forget that Audi America customer service answered my inquiry.


 :lol: No doubt said with tongue firmly in cheek.


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## Hodgster (Jun 26, 2011)

powerplay said:


> The BEST most economical way of driving your TT - or any car for that matter - is to read the road ahead and try to use the brakes as little as possible, ALWAYS engine brake as much as possible.


LOL, I hope you are joking?

Engine = designed for propulsion 
Brakes = designed to stop it

Watch some motorsport and see how little they use their brakes.......if F1 cars used the engine to brake they'd never finish a race as the engine wouldn't stand up to that driving technique.

Also by using the engine to brake wouls use MORE fuel as it would be revving higher for longer....


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## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

Hodgster said:


> powerplay said:
> 
> 
> > The BEST most economical way of driving your TT - or any car for that matter - is to read the road ahead and try to use the brakes as little as possible, ALWAYS engine brake as much as possible.
> ...


That used to be the case, but now the ECU shuts off all fuel to the engine when the car is engine braking. It uses the rotation of the road wheels through the gearbox to keep the engine turning over but it doesn't spark or inject fuel.

F1 do use engine braking to recharge the KERS system.


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## Wallsendmag (Feb 12, 2004)

You can't compare motorsport driving to driving on the road . The aims of the two are very different I know very few people (only one) that drive on the road as if they were on a track . On a track you are aiming for the fastest time from A to B so braking is kept to a mininum ,on a road my priority is safety.


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## igotone (Mar 10, 2010)

wallsendmag said:


> You can't compare motorsport driving to driving on the road . The aims of the two are very different I know very few people (only one) that drive on the road as if they were on a track . On a track you are aiming for the fastest time from A to B so braking is kept to a mininum ,on a road my priority is safety.


Too right!

Well I'm picking the TTS up tomorrow and I think I'll just be tying my left foot shoe laces to the seat frame for the journey home. :lol:


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## powerplay (Feb 8, 2008)

Hodgster said:


> powerplay said:
> 
> 
> > The BEST most economical way of driving your TT - or any car for that matter - is to read the road ahead and try to use the brakes as little as possible, ALWAYS engine brake as much as possible.
> ...


Er, No. :lol:

I'm pretty sure in motorsport economical driving is not top of the priority list :roll: 
And as mentioned, on the overrun most modern engines will automatically shut off fuel so by engine braking where appropriate you will save fuel. Even the great JC mentioned that on TG once!


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## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

MoreGooderTT said:


> And, let's not forget that Audi America customer service answered my inquiry. "It is not necessary to put the car into neutral when stopped".


I would respectfully suggest if you asked 3 VAG staff that question you would get 3 different answers. I was told by a senior VW (Europe) gearbox engineer to drive the car like a manual and get it into neutral when stopped. Then engage D when I wanted to move off. According to that engineer, sitting with your foot on the brake and D selected is like sitting with the clutch pedal depressed and the car in gear ie. a bad thing.

Another user on here was told by the most senior Audi technician in Taiwan to drive it like a torque converter automatic and just leave it in D at traffic lights etc.

Both of our gearboxes died.

As long as your car is under warranty, it probably doesn't matter, but it would be nice to have a definitive answer.


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## igotone (Mar 10, 2010)

wja96 said:


> MoreGooderTT said:
> 
> 
> > As long as your car is under warranty, it probably doesn't matter, but it would be nice to have a definitive answer.


Agreed - it surely can't be that difficult to get the word from Audi on this?


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## MoreGooderTT (Aug 20, 2011)

wja96 said:


> As long as your car is under warranty, it probably doesn't matter, but it would be nice to have a definitive answer.


I, for one, don't like sitting in the lobby waiting on cars to be repaird, warranty or not. It does matter. 
I don't understand why we can't get a straight answer.

To me, the most conservative method is to put it into neutral. However, wja96 says that this still resulted in failure. Now, the big variable here is time. Perhaps Audi has addressed the shortcomings of the DSG gearbox (what's it been... 15 years or so?) and now it really does manage the system better when left in D, and more harmful to shift from N to D and then stomp on the gas.

What I've been doing this week is putting it into N, then just before I think traffic will start moving I put it into D. I leave a bit of space between me and the car in front. I let off the gas so that the car starts to creep forward, then give it more throttle to catch back up with traffic. I'm sure an observer would think I was driving like grandma.


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## MoreGooderTT (Aug 20, 2011)

I found a fascinating thread on this topic. It's a bit old, but I think very informative. I've read the entire thread, and I recommend that everyone who's been watching my thread do the same. This Tuetonic_Tamer fella comes across as being a person who actually knows the truth of this matter.

http://www.r32oc.com/general-chat/11099 ... box-3.html

If you don't want to read it all, here's my summary:
We most certainly need to put S-Tronic gearbox into N when stationary. This means at traffic lights. When you expect to be stationary for >30 seconds, put it into N.

Also, when parking the vehicle, apply the parking brake, release the foot brake slowly to let the car settle, then put it into P. This is especially important when parking on an incline. The reason for this is you don't want to abuse the parking cog and pawl in the gearbox. It will be expensive to repair.

With regards to hot-stopping a car, I have a slightly different take on the advice given in that thread. The idea here is to allow the brakes in all four corners of the car to cool:

After a emergency stopping the car with the footbrakes from high speed (called a "hot stop"), if you don't have the chance to immediately start the car moving to get air running across the brake system, be sure to put the car into Park using the above procedure for parking. THEN RELEASE THE PARKING BRAKE TOO. This will move ALL of the brake pads off the red hot rotors and allow them to cool without warping. Hopefully you won't be sitting on a significant slope, because you'll be relying on the parking cog and pawl to hold the vehicles stationary while the brakes cool. You need to do this proceedure very quickly I would think.


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## LEO-RS (Apr 13, 2009)

I coast my DSG box all the time when I'm on a large downhill stetch, never done it any harm. I can probably coast twice as far in neutral than I could do by leaving it in D. If I leave it in D I then need to continue applying throttle to overcome the transmission drag to get to the bottom of the hill. (Same applies for manual transmission) I know you like this stuff WJA but from my experience and to get the best fuel economy, pop it into neutral to get the best unthrottled distance and then when you're slowing for traffic in front of you, pop it into D and then let engine braking bring you to a standstill (using no fuel) A mixture of both will give the best fuel economy :wink:

Sitting stationary and neutral is just common sense, why leaving it biting away on the brake pedal, have a little mechanical sympathy :lol:


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## MoreGooderTT (Aug 20, 2011)

Mitchy said:


> I coast my DSG box all the time when I'm on a large downhill stetch, never done it any harm. I can probably coast twice as far in neutral than I could do by leaving it in D. If I leave it in D I then need to continue applying throttle to overcome the transmission drag to get to the bottom of the hill. (Same applies for manual transmission) I know you like this stuff WJA but from my experience and to get the best fuel economy, pop it into neutral to get the best unthrottled distance and then when you're slowing for traffic in front of you, pop it into D and then let engine braking bring you to a standstill (using no fuel) A mixture of both will give the best fuel economy :wink:
> 
> Sitting stationary and neutral is just common sense, why leaving it biting away on the brake pedal, have a little mechanical sympathy :lol:


When I had a true manual tranny, I used Neutral the same as you describe above. However, for the TT's S-Tronic gearbox, I will take the advice of others on this thread. Just don't do it. Granted, one might save a tiny bit of fuel by coasting using N, however it is unsafe to do so. If I need to immediately accelerate for some reason, I'm already in gear when in D.

With regards to using neutral when stopped: It is established common sense to do this in a true manual. However, the confusion has been caused by Audi in that they claim the tranny puts itself into neutral when stopped. That's been the discussion of most of this thread. In the end, you are correct though. Neutral when stopped >30 seconds.


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## igotone (Mar 10, 2010)

OK - it's a fair cop the handbrake while in Drive obviously isn't a good idea. It's not happy at all is it?


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## MoreGooderTT (Aug 20, 2011)

igotone said:


> OK - it's a fair cop the handbrake while in Drive obviously isn't a good idea. It's not happy at all is it?


I do speak english, but for the life of me I can't figure out what that means.


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## igotone (Mar 10, 2010)

MoreGooderTT said:


> igotone said:
> 
> 
> > OK - it's a fair cop the handbrake while in Drive obviously isn't a good idea. It's not happy at all is it?
> ...


Briefly translated it means I was wrong with my idea of applying the handbrake while stationary in drive mode. Having picked up the TTS today I can see it's a bad idea and the engine is clearly pulling against the handbrake all the while it's applied. Hope that helps?


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## powerplay (Feb 8, 2008)

igotone said:


> MoreGooderTT said:
> 
> 
> > igotone said:
> ...


Well it would! And I wouldn't recommend doing it! You'd expect exactly the same in a manual of you put it in first gear and took your feet off the pedals with the handbrake on. After a while you might notice an unusual smell too.


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## igotone (Mar 10, 2010)

LOL. I drove quite a few auto Jags years ago and you could quite happily hold the vehicle in D on the handbrake with no problem at all, but clearly the stronic box is a different animal - no argument.


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