# Well done Teflon Tony



## garyc (May 7, 2002)

...both scraped through the Tuition Fees debacle, and it seems not unduly citicised in the Hutton report.

Hire some more spin sycophants though. Lots - you'll be needing them if only for your own ego over the coming months, which is in for a battering.

Your manifesto U-turn on university fees will be remembered by your electorate, and _no one_ really believes that you didn't mislead the country on the war dossier.

You can fool some of the people some of the time...


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## saint (Dec 6, 2002)

Ah.....but c'mon Gary ain't it great that everyone should get a chance at going to Uni? It looks soooooooo good for the UK all these highly educated graduates suppling the nation with media & IT specialists - just what we as a country needs - more ex students wanting more money work - thus forcing companies to source work from cheaper labour sources (India eg). In turn of course that forces these graduates to work in jobs that are "below" themselves - what a joy it must be to work for McDs. Â 

WHAT A LOAD OF PISH!!

Its about time our President Blair went off and made the move to cloud cookoo land permanent.

Oh - just as a footnote - all these school leavers that feel they must go to Uni cos its the only way to get a decent job and earn a decent living- Question -

Why does it cost so f'n much for a plumber & joiner these days? Â


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

Absolutely saIntt. But of course with 50% of school leavers destined for HE, we must all be getting _soooo_ much smarter and more intelligent as a nation, as numbers of graduates becomes the barometer.  

You are right. The tradesmen will have the laugh.


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## head_ed (Dec 10, 2002)

Vlastan is a huge supporter of such skills.

'Up the tradesmen' is oft heard, non?


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

> Vlastan is a huge supporter of such skills.
> 
> 'Up the tradesmen' is oft heard, non?


LOL. ;D I can just see it. Nack the Greek's Emotiona Dynarod Service. All blockages efficiently cleared - sercice with a smile - rebores a speciality


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## PaulS (Jun 15, 2002)

> But of course with 50% of school leavers destined for HE, we must all be getting _soooo_ much smarter and more intelligent as a nation, as numbers of graduates becomes the barometer.


Well done Tony. Somebody has got to tackle the desperate shortage of graduates in golf club management.


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## jgoodman00 (May 6, 2002)

> Well done Tony. Somebody has got to tackle the desperate shortage of graduates in golf club management.


Not to mention psychology graduates. When I graduated, I was amongst 20ish on my degree. There were over 200 psychology graduates! What does one do with a psychology degree?


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## paulatt (Oct 28, 2002)

> Â But of course with 50% of school leavers destined for HE,


75% of school leavers do not have the required ability to compete a University degree!! 

Hence the introduction of foundation courses - a course intended to get school leavers upto the required degree entry standard - another of Teflon Tony's good ideas!!. This means that a student now often has to complete this Foundation Year prior to entering the Degree course proper.

Lecturers are having to deal with significantly increased students numbers with no increased support or additional staff. Marking 50 essays of 5,000 words in 2 weeks is manageable but marking 150 is not!

Hence, the accustion of dumbing down of Degree courses is perhaps correct due students having lesser ability and lecturers having increased workload.

Rant Over!!


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

> Not to mention psychology graduates. When I graduated, I was amongst 20ish on my degree. There were over 200 psychology graduates! What does one do with a psychology degree?


Yes but what does it all really mean in terms of the Id and the Ego, and should I still be salivating every time that sodding bell rings?


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## raven (May 7, 2002)

> Not to mention psychology graduates. When I graduated, I was amongst 20ish on my degree. There were over 200 psychology graduates! What does one do with a psychology degree?


I don't think it matters that you cannot do something directly vocational with your degree. What matters is that that subject is pursued to a very high standard. In my workplace there are a massive range of graduates with different skills - everything from languages to quantum physics - and it makes for a more diverse and interesting environment to work in, not to mention healthy idea generation etc.

However, as has been mentioned, there is no way such standards will be maintained if the government pursues this daft 50% target. Drop out rates will increase, and the quality of teaching will fall etc etc. Not to mention the expense. When will politicians realise that not everyone wants to go on to further education? Three years on-the-job training would be far more beneficial for those school leavers who have an interest in working with their hands, or plumbers etc.

Blair may think he is in the clear now, but both Hutton and the university top up fees have done him a lot of damage.


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

So what should the target % be for placing kids through Uni? 20%, 30%, 40%, 50%, 60%????

I'd suggest that the perceived value and quality of graduates would vary inversely as the numbers rise. As would the costs to the tax payer.

What really gets my goat is that I already pay a shit load of tax (direct/indirect and stealth) - more than ever before, and expect that the Govt should use that to educate 'The Kids' without having to raise more/charge twice through fees. We are already paying for it.


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## raven (May 7, 2002)

> So what should the target % be for placing kids through Uni? Â 20%, 30%, 40%, 50%, 60%????
> 
> I'd suggest that the perceived value and quality of graduates would vary inversely as the numbers rise. Â As would the costs to the tax payer.
> 
> What really gets my goat is that I already pay a shit load of tax (direct/indirect and stealth) - more than ever before, and expect that the Govt should use that to educate 'The Kids' without having to raise more/charge twice through fees. Â We are already paying for it.


Maybe I'm being naive, but why does there have to be a target? I believe in market forces, and if people want to go to university because it gets them a better job, then they will. If they are not clever enough, then they won't. If they are in the latter category, then they will probably go for a career which is more practical etc. There's too much meddling by politicians if you ask me.

Also, the whole principal behind paying off these stupid top up fees is flawed - ie the idea that once you earn such and such, you pay them back. The more you earn, the more tax you pay anyway, so why come up with this convoluted scheme? It's simply because they are too scared to put up income tax rates.


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## Kell (May 28, 2002)

Keep the grants, make the courses harder to get on to.


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

The more people that study at the unis, the more the degrees are losing their values. And when the penetration rate goes higher than 50% the employers will then require a postgraduate course. So this is a never ending circle.


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## raven (May 7, 2002)

> The more people that study at the unis, the more the degrees are losing their values. And when the penetration rate goes higher than 50% the employers will then require a postgraduate course. So this is a never ending circle.


Exactly, you can see a nightmare situation where everyone is in further education until they're in their 30s because "that's what they have to do to get ahead of the pack"...


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

> Exactly, you can see a nightmare situation where everyone is in further education until they're in their 30s because "that's what they have to do to get ahead of the pack"... Â


Hence the need to have targets (or you can call it A Firm View) on the numbers likley to go thru Uni as part of education policy. Otherwise how would the Gov't estimate the costs invlove and appropriate/raise as necessary? It's basic budgeting that drives this need.

I'd say budget and plan to have a pre-determined proportion of students go to HE, and set entrance levels/A level pass marks or standards accordingly.

The A level is no longer worth very much anywhere, our degrees will be next.

I'll start with 25%, instantly halving the costs and raising the standards. The current Exchequer Revenue should more than support that without having to charge any top up fees. Problem solved.

Bin Media Studies as a recognisable study subject and I should think we'd be all better off instantly.


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

The goverment should also promote training in other areas. Plumbers for example...too few and they can challenge anybody with a degree, in the pay per hour rates.


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## head_ed (Dec 10, 2002)

'Up the tradesmen'! Hear, hear..


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## jgoodman00 (May 6, 2002)

> The goverment should also promote training in other areas. Plumbers for example...too few and they can challenge anybody with a degree, in the pay per hour rates. Â


And then some. Most of their work is also cash in hand. No tax...


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

> 'Up the tradesmen'! Hear, hear..


I really cannot comprehend your fixation with perversion these days. ;D


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## teucer2000 (May 14, 2002)

All this talk of going back on the labour manifesto - are you seriously saying that you read that document. If you did, get a life. If you didn't, stop moaning and think what the country was like under the last Conservative government, half of who's cabinet were actual criminals. I work with students and some of them spend money like it is gong out of fashion. They all have the latest lap-tops, clothes, mobiles and eat in the canteen while the real workers bring in sandwiches. So they might have to pay some money back...big deal...what's a bloody mortgage if it isn't a debt that the rest of society copes with.

Now I'm really stressed...where's the nearest BMW to annoy?


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## John C (Jul 5, 2002)

Hmmmm, amazing the numbers of instances of the word 'Degree' and 'Education' in the same post here! You may even start to think they are linked?

Na, can't be.


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## Sim (Mar 7, 2003)

> Hence the introduction of foundation courses - a course intended to get school leavers up to the required degree entry standard - another of Teflon Tony's good ideas!!. This means that a student now often has to complete this Foundation Year prior to entering the Degree course proper.


If by this you are referring to foundation degrees you are wrong. Foundation degrees are the same level as honours degrees (Levels 1 and 2) but they only last 2 years. They are also more work based and must be delivered in conjunction with employers. Students, can, if they wish, then transfer onto an honours degree.

You can do an access course to get on a degree but they are nothing new.



> But of course with 50% of school leavers destined for HE, we must all be getting soooo much smarter and more intelligent as a nation, as numbers of graduates becomes the barometer.


The 50% thing is a bit of a red herring. Most NHS nurses are now trained through universities, which has dramatically increased the student population within Universities, in real terms it remains the same. This is also going to begin with police officers too. Thus universities are broadening out their curriculum as with foundation degrees.



> Hence, the accusation of dumbing down of Degree courses is perhaps correct due students having lesser ability and lecturers having increased workload.


Would the fact that staff have less time not mean that the students have to work even harder to graduate? (p.s I have corrected accusation for you )



> What does one do with a psychology degree?


The probation and prison service (soon to be national offender management service) are crying out for BPS recognised psychologist to deliver their crap cognitive behavioural packages such as think first.


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

Phsycology is not a bad degree...there are a lot useless degrees out there. Such as History of Ideas...and this guy is a librarian now. Or another silly degree is in geography. These people end up in HR at the end.


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## teucer2000 (May 14, 2002)

I didn't - I'm Head of Finance.....it's a fact that the highest % of Geography graduates end up as Accountants. Going by my HR section, they didn't go to school, let alone university!


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## garvin (May 7, 2002)

Teflon Tony can do what he likes ............. where I work we got so fed up of the crappy standard of graduates that kept appearing that we have now exited the 'milk round' and do not really encourage graduates to apply. Instead we have a number of schemes aimed at targeting who we want early and sponsoring them through our 'approved' University courses or only encouraging/accepting applications from those who have graduated from, again, a list of University degree courses that we approve. This cuts out the crap, actually saves money (cos we don't have to deal with an inordinate amount of applications and interviews) and ensures we get what we want.


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## moley (May 14, 2002)

> Most NHS nurses are now trained through universities


Why, why, why ??? Nurses with degrees - absolute bollocks. They need people experience not theoretical nonsense 

Moley


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## Sim (Mar 7, 2003)

Universities do more than degrees and nurses have always had training. I am personally glad they get trained :-/


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## moley (May 14, 2002)

> Universities do more than degrees and nurses have always had training. I am personally glad they get trained Â :-/


Trained ... at desks at Uni ... very real life ??? It's an over qualification IMHO.

Training on wards in real hospitals with real people is the only way. There's this pathetic culture that to do ANY job, you need paper qualifications -what a load of bollocks.

Moley


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