# Discs and pads for a bit of track use



## TT-Will (Jun 30, 2019)

Hi all,

TL;DR: Should I bother getting better discs, or will it not make much difference?

I've been lurking on the forum but this is my first post, please be nice! I've searched a bit, there seems to be a lot more brake related discussion on the Mk1 rather than Mk2, but feel free to point out if I've missed an appropriate thread.

I've done two track days now and will likely start to do them more regularly, perhaps several per year. My TT is/was used for daily M25 commuting, Covid lockdown notwithstanding. I had a blast round Brands Hatch last week but the brakes are the limiting factor, with noticeable fade after about 5/6 hard laps.

PADS: 
Definitely need some fast road / light track level pads. Must be 100% road legal. 
- Considered EBC Yellow but there seems to be such a mixed response to EBC I'd probably rather avoid them
- I think I've decided on Brembo HP Sport, unless there are any horror stories? Can't find many reviews, and I've looked on all the other VAG forums. https://www.demon-tweeks.com/uk/brembo- ... 7-b314-52/ 
- Ferodo DS Performance also on the shortlist.

DISCS:
- MOT advisory this week said the front discs have some oxidation as a result of getting very hot, so I guess I need to replace them too. May not be genuine Audi, I'm not sure. I will leave the rear discs as they're new anyway, genuine Audi ones. 
-I'm considering the Brembo HP Sport [https://www.demon-tweeks.com/uk/brembo-hp2000-high-performance-brake-pad-set-front-bre07-b314-52/], but they seem quite pricey. It's my understanding that drilled discs are mostly for show and are more prone to cracking, but slotted discs could improve fade resistance and reduce pad glazing. Or is that just marketing BS?
- By way of comparison, does anyone know what the genuine Audi front discs would cost?
- Insurance: as an aside, if they're the standard size, but a bit more sporty, then will my insurer need to know?

BRAKE FLUID: I know it's important, and I've already got some ATE Typ 200 fluid ready to go in before the next track day.

I'm really keen to hear if anyone's swapped out the discs, whether it makes a difference, whether it's worth it, or whether standard ones are fine. And, would standard discs have more wear with uprated pads?

Thank you,

Will.


----------



## piti (Oct 10, 2018)

Hi,

I've had the HP2000 on my TTRS with Stock Discs and can't recommend trat setup. They were very noisy and would even squeal without braking (both, front and rear). As I also got brake wobble after 1500 miles or so I switched back to stock parts and haven't had a problem since then.

Peter


----------



## Barr_end (Oct 19, 2016)

TT-Will said:


> Hi all,
> 
> TL;DR: Should I bother getting better discs, or will it not make much difference?
> 
> ...


First off which will help the most... Which TT do you own?
This will give much more insight into which calipers and master cylinder you have on the car.

Have run a fair few set ups on my on TTS calipers, friends with same calipers and have now swapped to TTRS calipers up front.
So have a fairly wide range of experience I can comment with.



piti said:


> Hi,
> 
> I've had the HP2000 on my TTRS with Stock Discs and can't recommend trat setup. They were very noisy and would even squeal without braking (both, front and rear). As I also got brake wobble after 1500 miles or so I switched back to stock parts and haven't had a problem since then.
> 
> Peter


This is very interesting to me...
Stock discs are extremely well documented to be terrible. 
It does sounds like you either didn't use/bed the pads correctly and got pad deposits, or the standard happened and the disc with the cooling veins facing the wrong way warped...
If you could expand on this would be good to know.


----------



## piti (Oct 10, 2018)

Hi,

I did the bed-in procedure as described by Brembo itself. In the beginning everything seemed fine. However, I noticed that the brakes got quite hot, even with normal driving. Had the brakes checked multiple time by different mechanics and everything seemed fine. After a while they started squealing like mad. It improved after some spirited driving, but all in all it kept getting worse. When going slowly in a parking lot or so my car sounded like an old train. As the squealing also came from the rear brakes I assume that's not related to overheating the pads.
At some point the steering wheel started wobbling during braking when I decided to go to Audi and have the stock parts fitted (due to warranty and being street legal).
These work fine since ~5000 miles, no noise, no wobble, much cooler and even better pedal feel.

I don't track my car BTW. In Austria at the Red Bull Ring they have multiple offers to drive proper racing cars, which we usually do once per year and I think it's even cheaper than what the wear would be on my own car.

Peter


----------



## TT-Will (Jun 30, 2019)

@piti - Thanks Peter! Is the HP2000 compound the same as what's now marketed as "HP Sport?" I'll be sure to avoid that combo with stock discs. My front discs may not even be Audi OE, I'm not sure.

@Barr_end - Sorry I'm new to the forum, does my signature show up for you? My TT is pretty much the 2008 base model - 2.0 TFSI, not Quattro. I hadn't considered changing the callipers; I don't want to spend too much because at >100k miles the car isn't worth that much now. But if it's affordable then there ought to be space - it has the 19" "20 spoke two-piece" alloys, as a factory option. I'm keen to hear your insight into what my options are!

Thanks both,

Will.


----------



## cas5259 (Mar 17, 2020)

I'd get dedicated track pads, especially if you're looking at doing more and more events. Street and track pads just can't overlap much. I swap in yellow stuffs for track days, and hawk PC for daily.

Any performance street pad isn't going to hold up on track for more than a few hot laps. I burned up a set of Hawk HPS on my TTS before moving to EBC yellow for track use. Much better now. Next step after that is a brake kit that has better pad choices, but is $$$ and way overkill for the occasional track day.

Regular OE style blank rotors are fine, wouldn't bother upgrading unless going 2 piece. I've been using Meyle rotors for $50USD each with no problem.

There's better money spent on brake cooling mods before going down the expensive 2 piece rotor and/or big brake kit road. Removing the brake dust shields is a free start and seems to help a bit.

I'm looking at installing naca ducts from the fog light backing plate thing to bring high pressure air from above the splitter and into the wheel well, aimed at TTRS brake cooling ducts to direct it into the middle of the rotor.

Flush with racing brake fluid before and after each event if using ATE or RBF600 or whatever. I use Castrol SRF, which is more expensive, but I only bleed once a year now. That's worth it to me.

Good luck and enjoy the track!


----------



## Barr_end (Oct 19, 2016)

TT-Will said:


> @piti - Thanks Peter! Is the HP2000 compound the same as what's now marketed as "HP Sport?" I'll be sure to avoid that combo with stock discs. My front discs may not even be Audi OE, I'm not sure.
> 
> @Barr_end - Sorry I'm new to the forum, does my signature show up for you? My TT is pretty much the 2008 base model - 2.0 TFSI, not Quattro. I hadn't considered changing the callipers; I don't want to spend too much because at >100k miles the car isn't worth that much now. But if it's affordable then there ought to be space - it has the 19" "20 spoke two-piece" alloys, as a factory option. I'm keen to hear your insight into what my options are!
> 
> ...


Hello Will,

First off the bat I would ask, do you have facebook? As the @TFSI tuning page on there is brilliant source of documented information for everything with our platform of cars.

So onto what I can work out, your car is most likely equipped with the 312mm single piston calipers.
From my personal experience with a friends mk5 golf GTI and misses 'standard' TFSI, they aren't overly capable calipers but can certainly be made to work adequately.
Decent pads, fluid and a set of braided brake lines should see a nice improvement from any caliper. Discs aren't really much of a help, unless you go grooved to keep the pads from glazing over when running a more aggressive road pad.
Unless you go to running 2 piece fully floating discs, with direction veins. Which will add greater cooling, but not extra stopping power.
So I wouldn't worry about it not having OEM discs.
But it's the question would it be better to spend this money, pads/lines, but on a better caliper too? If that is then worth it for you.

Better caliper option for not loads of money would be what I just took off.
8J TTS/3.2, 8P S3/3.2, Mk5 Golf R32, Leon K1 cupra all use the same bigger 1 piston caliper. Which takes a 340 &345mm disc.
TTS runs a 340mm disc as it is lighter and the top 5mm on the 345's doesn't actually get covered by the pad, so ends up being a rusty lip.

I ran both Brembo HP2000 sports x2 and Mintex M1144s in those TTS calipers, with braided brake lines and ATE Typ200 fluid and Mtec discs.
With fairly hard road driving, never had any issues or brake fade and they worked very very well for a single piston caliper.
Just before I took them off I did a brake test with them. Here is the results..










I have recently just swapped from those calipers and moved onto the TTRS 4 pot brembos
These are a much great cost, than a set of TTS/S3 calipers would sell for, and what I'll sell mine for :lol: 
However I kept the 340mm TTS disc as the OEM TTRS 370mm discs are terrible. Accountants got involved with this one and only made one casting mould for the discs, but because they are direction veins for cooling, one runs the incorrect way on the car. That disc gets hot and warps.
I didn't fancy the £800-1000 cost of TTRS fitment 370mm 2 piece discs either.

When I swapped calipers from TTS to RS, I got a fresh set of HP2000 pads and same braided lines as before. Because I rate both, cold bite and pedal feel on the pads gives confidence all the time and they do work better warm and not had an issue with them at higher heats.
This is the result..










As you can see the stopping distance has improved, 5M
Noticeable difference, but this to me proves how well the TTS caliper worked as a single piston caliper.
Friend runs a set of 8 pot K sport calipers, with Ferodo DS2500 pads and his stopping distance is the same as my new RS caliper set up.

So again with lines, fluid and decent pads, the TTS single piston calipers are only 5M behind a £1500+ brake kit.

As you maybe able to read, I really rate the Brembo HP2000 sport pads, these are completely different to Brembo Sport, and they aren't to get confused.
Also have a few friends running the pads and really rate them too. Never had any issues with them.

Regardless of which route on calipers, or even for the mean time if you don't do the discs and pads. Fluid plays a huge role, alot of cars do not have the fluid changed regularly.
You may find just a proper fluid flush may bring you a nice feeling pedal and some confidence back into the car.

Sorry for the essays, there is still probably information I haven't included too



cas5259 said:


> I'd get dedicated track pads, especially if you're looking at doing more and more events. Street and track pads just can't overlap much. I swap in yellow stuffs for track days, and hawk PC for daily.
> 
> Any performance street pad isn't going to hold up on track for more than a few hot laps. I burned up a set of Hawk HPS on my TTS before moving to EBC yellow for track use. Much better now. Next step after that is a brake kit that has better pad choices, but is $$$ and way overkill for the occasional track day.
> 
> ...


The wording on this is bit of a weird one for me...
There is plenty of pad options which I would personally call a road pad, that would hold up more than fine with 'track' abuse.
For example Yellowstuff pads aren't considered a track pad? They are a road pad due to their heat ranges.
Unless we are classing OEM pads as street pads and anything aftermarket as track??
Then I might start to understand the wording on here.

Personally don't really rate yellow stuffs, mate has them in a TTRS caliper set up and they are extremely wooden feeling through pedal, under high heat this softens but then completely changes the pedal feel and seem to be able to make them pad fade when driving them really hard on the road.
Also first had seen their batch issues they had where the braking compound/material, literally falls off the metal backing plate. Causing all sorts of grief.

That's only my personal experience on them though, as yourself, probably plenty out there that love them and rate them.
With my experiences, just believe there is much better pad options out there, for not alot, if not in certain caliper/pad sizes, cheaper money too.

On the naca ducts, TTRS inner wheel arch liners at the front/bottom have this build in.
Under the car, naca duct that aims directly at the RS wishbone ducts, also have a 'grill' within the front surface facing the front of the wheel/tyre which allows some air from the fog light area into the wheel arch too.
Not overly expensive and a really good upgrade from the stock ones.


----------



## piti (Oct 10, 2018)

@TT-Will
I don't know if the HP2000 and Brembo Sport are the same compound. But the link in your first post contains "HP2000".

Interesting that noone else seems to have any issues with that brake pads. Maybe it was a bad production batch or so. All the issues started to occur well after the bed in period. As far as I remember the wobbling developed gradually, which I think points more towards pad deposits on the disc. Discs were measured and the shop said "they're warped". But as far as I've read pad deposits could also cause measurable runout.
Also hubs & wheel alignment were checked and confirmed to be perfect.
I could also imagine that uneven deposits formed over time due to rather calm braking for a longer time when the pad wouldn't clean the rotor surface enough. That could also explain why the noisy seemed to be better after some spirited driving.
The last 1000 miles or so I went on a roadtrip including german Autobahn after braking a few times from speeds around 140 mph and got fading and even lots of dark spots on the brake discs. Usually I wouldn't do that but as the brakes had to go anyway I didn't care too much about them.

However that's all just my experience und guesses what the real problem was.

On my first 8N I had Tarox F2000 + Ferodo DS Performance + Braided steel brake lines (is that wording correct?) and that was quite nice. But again no Track Experience with that setup.

Regarding track days I'd also say that brake cooling should definitely be considered as well. Without sufficient cooling the best brakes will fail eventually.


----------



## cas5259 (Mar 17, 2020)

Maybe you guys in the U.K. have a better selection. Yellowstuff is the most track capable pad I've seen available and tried for the stock TTS front caliper, that's what I meant. Sure, it's still streetable, but it has a higher temp range than the others. Feels fine to me, could be production batch issues like you said.

Maybe the base TT has more options? If I start doing more track days, I think some used RS calipers with the vagbremtech adapters would be the way to go. Great pad selection while still using stock rotors.

I've seen the RS wheel liners with the venting. I think the RS has a radiator in there, so those vents are actually to move air from the back of that. Installing those alone would do nothing, as the air still has to come from somewhere. I'd need the RS bumper or, like I mentioned, an intake vent.


----------



## Barr_end (Oct 19, 2016)

cas5259 said:


> Maybe you guys in the U.K. have a better selection. Yellowstuff is the most track capable pad I've seen available and tried for the stock TTS front caliper, that's what I meant. Sure, it's still streetable, but it has a higher temp range than the others. Feels fine to me, could be production batch issues like you said.
> 
> Maybe the base TT has more options? If I start doing more track days, I think some used RS calipers with the vagbremtech adapters would be the way to go. Great pad selection while still using stock rotors.
> 
> I've seen the RS wheel liners with the venting. I think the RS has a radiator in there, so those vents are actually to move air from the back of that. Installing those alone would do nothing, as the air still has to come from somewhere. I'd need the RS bumper or, like I mentioned, an intake vent.


Are you out in the states?
AKS tuning may offer international postage i believe, which could open you up to the mintex M1144's and Ferodo DS2500's on your TTS calipers, might be worth checking next time pads are needing a change, not sure how expensive it may mount up to though?

RS calipers do have a wide choice of pads and compounds and actually share pad fitment of BM5 which fair few brembo 4 pots use!

I am indeed running an RS bumper too, so internal vents have huge fog grills in front of them for me, but the TTS fog grills could have their 'blocker plastic' behind the actual fog grill removed and air would flow through.
With the naca ducts in those arch liners, they are under the car, so with any bumper set up these would be pulling in air.



piti said:


> @TT-Will
> I don't know if the HP2000 and Brembo Sport are the same compound. But the link in your first post contains "HP2000".
> 
> Interesting that noone else seems to have any issues with that brake pads. Maybe it was a bad production batch or so. All the issues started to occur well after the bed in period. As far as I remember the wobbling developed gradually, which I think points more towards pad deposits on the disc. Discs were measured and the shop said "they're warped". But as far as I've read pad deposits could also cause measurable runout.
> ...


This is pretty interesting to be fair!
First issues I've seen with someone running HP2000's
It could of been either really as you said!
Stock RS discs are known for being terrible as I think I said somewhere in that essay above, the discs are directional, but only one way, so I think the RH (drivers on uk RHD / passengers on LHD) disc doesn't cool properly, actually traps the heat in and warps. 
But dependant on maybe driving style it could off been as you said, pad deposits
I personally have only ever ran grooved discs which 'clean' pad much more and supposedly chew threw pads and I don't overly use my brakes, if this makes sense, so when I do it's fairly 'hard' for short periods, even normal road driving, try and engine brake as much as I can. Maybe this stops pad deposits on these pads, or maybe your discs were at fault.
Would be very interested if that could of been known!

Do you know what fluid you was running at the time? When you say you got fade, did the car just start stopping for what felt longer or did the pedal go a little soft/long?

The advice on brake cooling is 100% on the money though, it'll never be a negative


----------



## TT-Will (Jun 30, 2019)

Thanks all so much for sharing your experiences.

@Barr_End thanks for the detail - I certainly didn't expect graphs and performance data - amazing! I think a calliper upgrade is a little more than I want to spend on the car, as you mention I could get some decent-ish performance out of even the stock callipers with better pads and fresh, good fluid. I'll see how that works out; I don't want to get too carried away since it is only the base model 2wd TT. When I bought it I chose sought a 2wd for less of a maintenance overhead, but now I do wish I'd got a Quattro!

Here's what I think I'll go with:

- Braided hoses seem like a good idea, since I'm getting the fluid changed anyway. I've ordered some Goodrich stainless steel ones.

- I'll stick with my initial thought on the Brembo HP2000 pads; sounds like I was on the right track there, hopefully @piti's issues were a one-off.

- Noted that there's not too much point upgrading the discs, so I'll forego the >£300 Brembo Sport ones. I might try Brembo Max discs, which are slotted for a slightly better initial bite and will keep the pads clean. EuroCarParts have them for around £115 the pair, which I guess is still a lot less than OE Audi. https://www.eurocarparts.com/p/brembo-m ... -92844150M

- I'll have a look at the cooling, although it is just the stock TT bumper.

Does that seem like a decent compromise to give me a little better performance, feel and fade resistance on track, while keeping the cost down and not getting too carried away? I also have to factor in labour (in Surrey, not the cheapest!) because I'm not that skilled when it comes to mechanicals. I dabble, but don't trust myself with important things like brakes.

For anyone else's benefit reading this, here's a transcript of an online chat with my insurer - Direct Line in the UK.

*[ME]:* Hi there. I'm thinking of making some minor changes to the brakes on my car, so they work more effectively and with better feel. Namely, stainless steel braided brake hoses and some slightly uprated pads (still ECE R90 approved, of course). Would these count as modifications that I have to inform you about?
*[ME]:* I mean if anything they'll make the car safer, but if it's going to have an impact on insurance then I will probably not bother
*James [Direct Line]*: Hi thanks for getting in touch today. I have checked with our underwritten rules regarding modifications and changes to the brakes *would not need to be declared on your policy and would not affect your cover.*

Thats a bit of a result, I was expecting they'd be considered as modifications.

Will.


----------



## Barr_end (Oct 19, 2016)

Sounds like a very fair evaluation man.
That will be your best bet for making your current brakes as good as they can be!
My only last suggestion would be Mtec discs.
Ran 4 sets of the single piece discs on my TTS, put them on the misses TFSI TT, alot of friends, alot within the TFSI community all run them with good results.
These should be the correct ones for your car, but be worth double checking I have selected the correct car :lol: 
https://www.mtecbrakes.com/brake-discs/ ... 12-10.html


----------



## TT-Will (Jun 30, 2019)

Thanks, good shout on the MTEC discs. Just as well since EuroCarParts seem to be struggling at the moment; I had ordered the Brembo Max but ECP didn't deliver next day, so I cancelled. Fair enough, challenging times.

Almost nobody had stock of the Brembo HP2000 pads, quite frustrating as some websites don't mention they're out of stock or on back order. Fortunately, I managed to track down what might have been the last set in the country from Darkside Developments, who tune VAG diesels.

MTEC sorted me right out. They also had stock of the Goodridge brake lines, which I'd been struggling to find quickly - most places would have to get them from Goodridge with at least a week lead time. Same for HEL lines. I phoned to make sure, and they answered within a couple of rings, great service. The MTEC discs are beautifully machined, and cheaper than the Brembos. In fact at £75 for the front pair they're cheaper than most aftermarket OE replacements, so if they're as good as you say then they're absolute bargain. Plus, it's nice to support smaller businesses.

Now I have a bootful of goodies for the garage tomorrow!










I'll report back on the difference from stock, and on track. Hopefully I'll be visiting Castle Combe some time in September.

Any tips on bedding in? I have a 400-mile round trip to make next week so that ought to do it.

Will.


----------



## Barr_end (Oct 19, 2016)

TT-Will said:


> Thanks, good shout on the MTEC discs. Just as well since EuroCarParts seem to be struggling at the moment; I had ordered the Brembo Max but ECP didn't deliver next day, so I cancelled. Fair enough, challenging times.
> 
> Almost nobody had stock of the Brembo HP2000 pads, quite frustrating as some websites don't mention they're out of stock or on back order. Fortunately, I managed to track down what might have been the last set in the country from Darkside Developments, who tune VAG diesels.
> 
> ...


Looks like you got yourself some very decent parts! Should work well. Be good to see your thoughts after they have been bleed through properly and discs/pads are bedded in.

Bedding new discs & pads in is very different to just pads.
Discs need 200-400 miles (dependant on manufacture quoted) of very light braking, try to avoid jumping on them at all if possible and use light pedal pressure/long distance brake inputs.
Also try to avoid 'sitting' on the brake pedal at junctions.

Once the discs have had these small short heat cycles to ease them in, it's time for the pads.

They will want to be put through big heat cycles, and that's why you cant do it right away on new discs as they will be thermally shocked. 
Start out something like: 
50-20mph x5 with fair distance in between so they cool off slightly.
Then drive 1-2 miles trying not to touch the brakes as much as possible, try to keep the car rolling between these, don't stop completely dead with them.
Then up the speed 70-20 x5, again with same process, then even 80 x5 if you can get away with it.
Should feel the pads starting to slightly fade on the higher speed, last couple of runs as they bed in and get very warm.

Graph above for my braking tests in the TTRS caliper, I had bedded my pads, like above in only about 5 miles before and did x2 60-0mph and the second was the best shown time/distance.


----------



## Bateman (Apr 16, 2020)

How are you getting on with the hp2000 pads? Thinking of getting these as an upgrade but on my stage 1 8n, but it won't be having any track use.


----------

