# why is there a safty camera van at the TTOC



## mrdemon (Apr 20, 2005)

why is there a camera van at the TTOC ?

you go to a nice day out and there is a camera van at the event
why on earth would we want to look at one of those.

we all hate them they are only a money collector and its about time we all joined http://www.safespeed.org.uk/
http://www.speedcameras.org/
http://www.abd.org.uk/

this is all geting out of hand its not a free country we cannnot drive our cars and they do not put them in black spots.

we need to be safe and respect the law but getting nicked for 34 mph is just way out of order we cannot stare at our speedo'd to check if we are 4 mph over the limit all the time.

over Â£2.8m in fines in 2004, 47,000 members of the public.
its out of hand we need to do some thing, and supporting a van at the TTOC is not a good start.


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## coupe-sport (May 7, 2002)

And why not ? - Good PR, interesting to look at the van etc and find the coppers are just human. They dont make the rules.

The Van and Police that came along to the AmD rolling road event last year were very good - interesting talk and made you think about where you speed etc.

Each to their own etc but cant see anything wrong with it myself :?


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## mrdemon (Apr 20, 2005)

its not the Police fault true

but we should not be suporting the safty van issue

because there not safty vans.

if there were out side schools at 3pm then yes there great but the fact is there normally on nice quite bits of fast safe road.
the ones which can get the biggest ammoumt of money as fast as possable.


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## steveh (Jan 14, 2004)

There was one at Brooklands last year which was really good as they confirmed to me that Surrey Police only used Peugeot vans so that the Transit that I thought had caught me the previous week was not a 'safety camera' van. :lol:

They were really friendly blokes too and having just been caught by one of these vans (in Wiltshire) I personally feel it's the system that's wrong not the people who operate it who are just doing what they are targeted to do.

Anyway, it's always useful to get to know your enemy. :lol:


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## Gizmo750 (Sep 16, 2004)

I agree, I always use Police presence at events like this, or Ally Pally, or Box Hill or anywhere else to learn more about what they are up to.

Well informed is the best way to be I find - helps you out when you least expect it :wink:


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## brayboy (Aug 6, 2004)

also gives you a chance to see if your road angel 2's lazer detector actually works :wink:


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## sico (Feb 6, 2003)

mrdemon said:


> why is there a camera van at the TTOC ?
> 
> you go to a nice day out and there is a camera van at the event
> why on earth would we want to look at one of those.
> ...


Im with you this:

1, the police can get away with rediculous speeds but we cant. Autoexpress had an article about how many police have got caught for speeding and how many do you think where prosicuted?

2, If they are true blackspots then why try to make money out of them? Surley you want people to slow down, most motorists are the law obiding public. Why not have a countdown like speed camera in 3 - 2 - 100 yards, instead of hiding them around the corner.

3, Why try to ban radar detectors? Surley they are used at accident blackspots so they slow people down before they get knicked and may prevent accidents?

All revenue earners for Blair, stealth tax:

Increase in fuel Duty
Congestion charging
Increase in road tax costs
More toll roads
Pay per mile scheme being investigated
SPECs cameras and other cameras

Government:

Minister we need more money the pot is empty!
"Lets see if we can get more money out of the motorists"


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## dickie (May 18, 2004)

Don't start me on speed cameras etc. I'm sick to death of the criminalisation and demonisation of motorists. Speed cameras are obviously sited where they stand the greatest chance of raising revenue. Most accidents occur where there is a bend in the road. Hmmmmm, not easy to put a gatso there. We always see emotive pictures on the tv of small children being hit by a speeding car. Why are all the cameras on roads where children cannot possiblyget to??. My'favourite' example is the road from the Blackwall tunnel to Hackney. - Used to be called the A102M. 6 lanes, hard shoulder, seperated from any pedestrians. Now called the A12. Speed limit has been systematically reduced to 40mph with gatsos about every 200 metres, some hidden. 
My other beef is speed humps. First - why should everyone be punished for the sins of a few. I actually don't want speed in back streets and don't. Now in most of Haringey. If I tried to go at the specified 20 mph I would trash my car! If I did, whose fault would it be?

GRRRRRRRRR!! :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:


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## R6B TT (Feb 25, 2003)

At least if a van is at Gaydon it won't be out generating revenue :wink:

We have quick cars and if the experience at AmD was anything to go by, the Traffic Officer and Camera man were thoroughly good blokes concerned for road and our safety


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## digimeisTTer (Apr 27, 2004)

R6B TT said:


> At least if a van is at Gaydon it won't be out generating revenue :wink:


But the one on the way in/out will be no doubt :wink:


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## Kell (May 28, 2002)

Despite the fact that virtually everyone from the the local vicar to my Nana does it. As a club, we cannot be seen to condoning speeding.

By having 'safety cameras' at our annual events and the people that operate them it means that you might learn something that not only saves your licence, it saves your life.

Bear in mind that of all the exhibitors there, they only represent a small part of theday.


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## TTotal (Aug 12, 2002)

and really this thread should be on another board ie Flameroom .

Know your enemy - well said mate ! :wink:


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## clived (May 6, 2002)

MrDemon,

The club does, of course, very much welcome suggestions for, and activity to secure, content at the annual event from all TTOC members. If you have any good ideas for what you *would* like to see at future events and would like to give up some to make it happen, you'd be very welcome.

Our previous experience is that police exhibitors at events have been an interesting, informative and welcome addition to the other activities.

Clive


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## sico (Feb 6, 2003)

Kell said:


> Despite the fact that virtually everyone from the the local vicar to my Nana does it. As a club, we cannot be seen to condoning speeding.
> 
> By having 'safety cameras' at our annual events and the people that operate them it means that you might learn something that not only saves your licence, it saves your life.
> 
> Bear in mind that of all the exhibitors there, they only represent a small part of theday.


I havent read one post here that does condon speeding?

If someone does something wrong you educate them re-train them, you dont just fine them and let them go.

Imagine if you got this for all crimes great revenue earner! Inform the public train those who break the speeding law who are mainly the law obiding public, warn them of danger area with signs.

However also the police need to set an example by not going 150 mile an hour and getting away with it while we would lose our licence and face imprisonment.

Also car technology has improved breaking distances have imnproved since the introduction of speed limits way way back. So adjust in line with this also!

But mainly 'protect and serve' the law obiding public instead of trying to penalise/fine us for every litttle thing whilst letting muggers and burglars go free and in some cases procecuting us for defending our property!


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## clived (May 6, 2002)

...and what a great opportuninty having some speed enforcement officers at the annual event will give you to discuss those issues with the guys on the ground.

If you want a rant about the system in general, flame room. If you want to discuss why they are coming to the event, here is ok (although really it should be in the TTOC forum, so I'll move it there....)


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## TTotal (Aug 12, 2002)

TTotal said:


> and really this thread should be on another board ie Flameroom .
> 
> :wink:


Yes


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## clived (May 6, 2002)

The original question wasn't a flame - it was a TTOC event question...

One or two people have chosen to post without actually discussing the event at all of course...


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## TTotal (Aug 12, 2002)

OK then still in the wrong room .......

<not discussing the event at all>

:roll:


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## clived (May 6, 2002)

It seemed like a policy question to me - "and supporting a van at the TTOC is not a good start".


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## TTotal (Aug 12, 2002)

The post was titled
"why is there a camera van at the TTOC ? "

And began.........

"why is there a camera van at the TTOC ?

you go to a nice day out and there is a camera van at the event 
why on earth would we want to look at one of those. ............................."

So nothing really to do with the TT room, then really became a flame too. Without wishing to be a pedant this was clearly the wrong place for both areas of discussion .


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## clived (May 6, 2002)

So any question with an attempt at a justification for the reasoning behind the question is a flame? Anyway WE are now way off topic AND it's moved now and staying


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## TTotal (Aug 12, 2002)

Where are we anyhow? Got lost , supposed to be doing some er

work


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## nutts (May 8, 2002)

The Camera van at the AmD meet as a huge success. Everyone there (I believe) thought it worthwile. The guys were shown as human and even allowed "testing" of detection equipment. They were not monsters and did not hide around the corner to catch owners as they left.  We then invited another camera van to Brooklands and that also went down very well with those those owners that managed to chat with them. 

And as we've had 2 events with their participation, with NO adverse comments (only positives), we decided to invite them along to HMC this year.

If members don't want something that the club does to occur then they have to speak up and provide a valid reason for the club not doing something.

We are only human and unfortunately the committee haven't evolved telepathy yet... although if Ben gets his development finger out, we could get it in the next release :wink:

To be honest I still don't understand the objection to having a camera can (that isn't working) attend HMC, so that members can chat to them and find answers to their questions. These guys that are coming are unpaid volunteers! They are working on their own time (off duty) to come along, because they are genuinly interested in talking to the general public and are most probably car enthusiasts.


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## TTotal (Aug 12, 2002)

Well said Mark


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## r1 (Oct 31, 2002)

mrdemon said:


> because there not safty vans.


Well said.

They're safety vans.


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## mrdemon (Apr 20, 2005)

My point is not about speed vans and flaming them.

its about the club supporting them at a TTOC meet

All other motoring press and clubs are against them so why is the TTOC supporting them?

The Police will be trained on what to say at an event so you will not find out any thing which is worth knowing.

I dont mind the Police being there at all, as i say it supporting the safety van issue which has got my goat.


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## clived (May 6, 2002)

mrdemon said:


> My point is not about speed vans and flaming them.
> 
> its about the club supporting them at a TTOC meet
> 
> ...


We've asked them along not specifically to show "support" but becuase members have told us they've got benefit from them being there in the past. If you want us to never do it again, come along to the AGM, bring your membership card, propose a resolution in AOB and the membership can take a vote.

As per my previous post, if you really want to shape what happens, put some effort into getting involved and creating so much else to exhibit that there isn't room for them.


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## TTotal (Aug 12, 2002)

Dont think the ones of us that agree to them being at the event actually agree to the camera vans - its that we wish to befriend them and know how they operate and see how we can survive longer.

Again I repeat the phrase _Know your enemy_ also the camera that is at the event, is not on the road :roll:


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

We should invite ALL of the UK Camera Vans to a meet... then not turn up, but rip around the country like mad hooligans instead 

mrdemon, you haven't thought things through... :lol:


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## mrdemon (Apr 20, 2005)

there is not a way to survive longer.
bar joining one of the motoring clubs and writing a letter to your MP.
The TTOC should be working with other clubs to do this.

its down to the police on the day what the limit is set at.

one time it was 10% plus 2 mph but now you get get nicked for 32 mph i know people who have been fined for this speed.

The police on the day will be trained what to say and they have to say what they are told, speed kills and safety vans save lives.

I think having the police there is a good idea as we all want to abide by the Law. its good to see a speced up police car and at least they only nic you if you are being silly or driving like a Tw4t.

The BIG question is what is the TTOC stance on Safety vans?
I as a paying member would like to know.

I may be blowing at all up a bit but I do have a strong hate towards the running of safety vans and the part they have to play in our every day lives.

There not help full you get the same fine as billy nova doing 55 in a 30 as you doing 33 in a 30. ANd your tared for 5 years for 3 mph.

I have no problems with fixed camera's
I have no problem with Unmarked cars
I have no problem with the Police in general (my friend is a police man)
but do do get a few tossers like any trade.

It is a can of worms i am sorry to bring up, it is after all just mho.


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## nutts (May 8, 2002)

As an aside...

Originally we tried to get a V MAX type session organised on a 2 mile straight but we couldn't get permission in the end. When we approached the Police to come along and do the timing (professionally :wink: ) and take police photos (for charity... Â£10 per photo, etc) using one of their safety vans, they agreed 

That would have actually been pretty 8) imho


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## clived (May 6, 2002)

mrdemon said:


> The BIG question is what is the TTOC stance on Safety vans?
> I as a paying member would like to know.


The club doesn't have a "stance" if by that you mean some goal or objective written into the constituiton with regards to safety vans.

If your suggestion is that the TTOC should have a stance, and therefore it would be a good use of club resources to mandate a club officer to devote time and TTOC member money to the persual of that stance, rather than putting effort into other activities to create member benefit, then please propose it at the AGM, we can have a discussion and take a vote.


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## TTotal (Aug 12, 2002)

NuTTs 8)

Thats a great idea,shame we cant do that. I resisted the temptation to ask for the photo of me earning my 9 points would have liked that framed 8)


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

clived said:


> mrdemon said:
> 
> 
> > The BIG question is what is the TTOC stance on Safety vans?
> ...


Fair comment. So what's the TTOC stance on Safty Vans?


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## nutts (May 8, 2002)

TTotal said:


> NuTTs 8)
> 
> Thats a great idea,shame we cant do that. I resisted the temptation to ask for the photo of me earning my 9 points would have liked that framed 8)


Let's just say... next year is likely to surpass even what HMC will offer... and yes, we are thinking about 2006 already :wink:


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## TTotal (Aug 12, 2002)

So when can I order my 2006 calender then ? :wink:


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## mrdemon (Apr 20, 2005)

I think it would be a good idea for the club to have a stance on the issue
if it was only to get every member to write a letter about safety vans and get a rep to send all the letters to there MP.

regarding the fun part ie vmax you have to get a lot in place to do this
I went to a test day at mira and you could not go above 70 mph on the track,

there was a police man with a gun on the straight and you would get nicked if you went above 70 mph.

This is true and fact i was amazed.

I have no idea whats involved for track day/vmax days but it must be medics, marshalls, fire trucks, etc if you want to go above 70 mph.

It will be a good day at the TTOC and the hard work to get this off the ground is much appreciated.

now all i have to try and do is get these stickers on the backs of the safety van team tee hee


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## clived (May 6, 2002)

jampott said:


> Fair comment. So what's the TTOC stance on Safty Vans?


The TTOC supports "Safty" cameras, as due to a technicallity, their evidence is inadmisable in court as they have never been sanctioned for use via a Parliamentary Bill becoming statute ;-)


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## TTotal (Aug 12, 2002)

MrDemon
Thats got to be horseshi7 as these tracks are private and not public roads... :?


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## nutts (May 8, 2002)

mrdemon said:


> I think it would be a good idea for the club to have a stance on the issue
> if it was only to get every member to write a letter about safety vans and get a rep to send all the letters to there MP.
> 
> regarding the fun part ie vmax you have to get a lot in place to do this
> ...


If the location or club have a motorsport licence then these type of things are covered.  For example Track Days are not limited 70mph... this is becvause they have everything in place. If a club wanted to rent an airfield then they have to provide these facilities or they will have their licence revoked... but we were planning on using a proper facility


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## clived (May 6, 2002)

mrdemon said:


> I think it would be a good idea for the club to have a stance on the issue
> if it was only to get every member to write a letter about safety vans and get a rep to send all the letters to there MP.


If what you want is people to write letters, raise awreness (calmly I'd suggest, so as not to alienate people) and let them make their own minds up on the issue. The club having a policy would in no way mandate members to write to their MPs. However, as I've said, as a member, you're perfectly entitled and welcome to raise it at the AGM, where we can discuss the merits and any possible negative impact on the club.


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## clived (May 6, 2002)

mrdemon said:


> there was a police man with a gun on the straight and you would get nicked if you went above 70 mph.


Wow - that does surprise me. I've been to MIRA and yes, there is a limit on the test track, but as it's private property, I don't understand how they could take you to court over it. They certainly had marshalls enforcing the speed limit (and I did actually manage to get black flagged for getting an E class estate airborne - luckily it was my last drive of the day!).


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## S11POW (Oct 22, 2003)

Don't get me started! If any one mentions speed cameras I go into a rant about how they don't infact save lives at all.

It's a completely unbalanced approach to law enforcement. In Bristol, the trivial "crime" of doing 34 in a 30 is enforced with fines, points, bans and cameras everywhere. How are Avon & Somerset Constabulary cracking down on scroats nicking cars and joyriding around at at least 36, maybe even 37? They put up signs on lamposts asking "Motorists: Have you locked your car?"

FFS! Of course I have fecking locked my car!


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## clived (May 6, 2002)

S11POW said:


> Don't get me started! If any one mentions speed cameras I go into a rant about how they don't infact save lives at all.
> 
> It's a completely unbalanced approach to law enforcement. In Bristol, the trivial "crime" of doing 34 in a 30 is enforced with fines, points, bans and cameras everywhere. How are Avon & Somerset Constabulary cracking down on scroats nicking cars and joyriding around at at least 36, maybe even 37? They put up signs on lamposts asking "Motorists: Have you locked your car?"
> 
> FFS! Of course I have fecking locked my car!


Can I suggest that if a discussion of speed policing policy is in order, someone starts on in either Off Topic or Flame Room, depending on how cross they are. Lets keep this thread to discuss why they are going to be at HMC, and if the membership wants us to change our "keep friendly with speed enforcement" approach to a "lets make it clear TTOC members hate speed enforcement" (or at least I suspsect that's how it would be seen - would you want that hanging over you if you get pulled over and the officer is thinking about just giving you a warning... until he notices that TTOC badge ;-) ).


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## mrdemon (Apr 20, 2005)

"lets make it clear TTOC members hate speed enforcement"

now thats a bit silly,

If we dont make a stand there will be no point in having a TT.

EVery one hates Safety vans but some one some where is voting for Labour !!!

It not about hating speed enforcment its about the way the labour gov and the ploice are going about it.

And as a Motor car club there is a good way to go about making a point.


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## clived (May 6, 2002)

It makes more sense if you read it (and indeed, quote it) in context:



> Lets keep this thread to discuss why they are going to be at HMC, and if the membership wants us to *change our "keep friendly with speed enforcement" approach* to a "lets make it clear TTOC members hate speed enforcement" (*or at least I suspsect that's how it would be seen* - would you want that hanging over you if you get pulled over and the officer is thinking about just giving you a warning... until he notices that TTOC badge ).


I wasn't saying that would be our explicit aim! 

As I've said, given what you seem to want is lots of people writing letters and a) there are far more people on the forum than in the club and b) the club cannot mandate members to write letters, and nor could we write a letter from the club without a majority mandate, your best bet is probably raising this issue in Off Topic. Hopefully we've made it clear that the appearance at the event is neither support nor otherwise, simply something that members have fed back that they found useful in the past.


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## mrdemon (Apr 20, 2005)

I know you were jesting 

I was just hoping as a club we could support the other car clubs who have a view on them in a way which would not harm the Club.


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

I'm sure if the TTOC marketed the van as an "opportunity to test your 'garage door openers' without the risk of being knicked" then it would be universally welcomed.

I was at the AMD meet and it was very informative and meant people were more aware of where the boundaries were. The more information about them the better as far as I'm concerned. Learning how quick they work, the distances they operate over, how they're used all pre-arm you and hence give you a little more benefit over joe public who doesn't have access to them.

I'm totally in favour of their attendance. Great idea.


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