# Winter tyres



## p1tse (Sep 20, 2004)

Any of you guys run these, if so which ones, opinions, recommendations etc.

I'm looking at 225 50 17, could do with some cheaper part worn if you know of any


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## Kell (May 28, 2002)

I've got Winter tyres on my Beemer - as we got stuck several times a couple of years ago.

I researched and researched for ages and decided that the Dunlop Winter Sport SP3 were going to be the best buy. They came top in all the tests back then - but things may have moved on since then. I was lucky however, in that someone in High Wycombe was selling a set of winter wheels and tyres - specced with the SP3s on - in High Wycombe. So they only cost me £400 for wheels and tyres.

What I would say is that they're not miracle tyres - they got me out of our estate when I couldn't get out with normal tyres - but there's a huge difference between *winter tyres *that are designed to keep the rubber flexible in temparures below 7 degrees and *snow tyres* which have a far more aggressive tread and sometimes spikes.

I think much of that, however, is down to the BMW being RWD and having no weight over the driven wheels. I reckon winter tyres would be far more effective on a FWD car - and much, much more effective on 4WD.

What I would also say is that you should avoid 'all season' tyres. FRom the research I did, most people reckon you get the worst of both worlds. THey're not much betterthan normal tyres in the winter and you lose loads of grip in the summer.

One final thing, if you're going to buy, do it soon. I couldn't get any at all for our Mini last year as there was no stock anywhere in the UK.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

Kell said:


> I think much of that, however, is down to the BMW being RWD and having no weight over the driven wheels. I reckon winter tyres would be far more effective on a FWD car - and much, much more effective on 4WD.


My E60 handled like a hovercraft in even the lightest snow. The 996, with the engine over the rear wheels was actually quite pleasant in comparison, during last years snow. I didn't try either with winter tyres though, as I have nowhere to store them.


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## Dash (Oct 5, 2008)

Auto Express has done a winter tyre review this year.

Personally I went for Nokian WR-G2s last year as did a number of other forum members. They have a bit more compromise than dedicated winter-tyres, which imho is ideal for UK country roads in a TT. Lets face it, any more than 2 inches and I'll become a snow-plough, but whilst under that they got me places that nobody else was going.


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## p1tse (Sep 20, 2004)

thanks

kell, which are examples of all season?

nokian wr g2 i would like to go for and vred wintrac, but due to budget looking at lower midrange

any ideas on falken hs439?
http://blogs.eurotuner.com/6482532/edit ... index.html


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## Diveratt (Aug 31, 2009)

My local tyre place recomended Kleber Quadraxer for my winter 17" wheels. Only had them fitted in July so can't coment yet, but the seem to get some good reviews. 4 season rather than a straight winter tyre.

Kevin


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## BAMTT (Feb 22, 2004)

I have the Nokians on my Mundano station car pretty good TBH, a colleague and i got stuck in traffic on the way home from work during the snow managed to go pass loads of stranded motorists, even went past a pick up truck although that had a set of stupid bling wheels on it

Have left em on all summer with no probs they are pretty good in heavy rain and unlike some winter tyres have worn very well i have done 12k i think and have enough life left to get me through this winter

Might get a set for the Subaru now that will be grippy !!


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## Kell (May 28, 2002)

p1tse said:


> thanks
> 
> kell, which are examples of all season?


Unsure - but from the reviews and research I did at the time, they all recommended getting a set of Winter tyres and a separate set of Summer tyres.

The Dunlops I've had on my car, I've not got around to taking off since they were fitted almost two years ago (partly laziness and partly that I just keep forgetting to check the tyre sze for the replacement run flat for my M-sport wheels). The rears need replacing ASAP, but the fronts have plenty of tread on them. I reckon I must have done about 24,000 miles since fitting, butthen I'm quite kind to my tyres - TT tyres lasted around 32,000 miles.


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## p1tse (Sep 20, 2004)

thanks

you running the same size tyres on the original wheels or got winter wheels, any pics?


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## Kell (May 28, 2002)

From the stuff I read, they recommended that you should run thinner tyres in the winter - they'd work better anyway even if you were running the same summer tyres as there's more pressure per square inch (think ice skate versis ski). You can't really go too much thinner with the original M-Sport wheels, so I figured it's beeter to get smaller wheels and thinner tyres - plus, my reasonong was that the tyres would be cheaper in a smaller size. Combined with the more agressive tread pattern and the sipes, they do give more grip. The video in the Autocar link below gives a good demonstration of this in that you will still experience wheelspin - just less of it.

Car on original M sport wheels - 18" alloys, unsure of tyre dimensions.










THe new winter wheel/tyre package. These are 16" wheels with 225/55/16 SP3s. They don't look as good, but they kept me rolling the last two winters.

This is when we went skiing in Alpe D'Huez a couple of seasons ago:



















What I would say is that I've had an argument with the missus this week about whether or not they 'work'. She said that she thought they were, and I quote, "shit".

My response to that was that they're not miracle tyres and she should learn to slow down when conditions are bad. I've been in the car with her when she's driven in the winter and been appalled at her use of speed. As I think I mentioned in a post above, they're not 'snow' tyres, but will definitely help you in the snow.

A couple of good places I looked at were http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/ for independent reviews and various other places to see if winter tyres were worth investing in, like http://www.autocar.co.uk/blogs/stillatt ... tyres.aspx


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## ag (Sep 12, 2002)

When we had our A4 Avant I had a set of 15" steel wheels with Goodyear Ultragrips. At the time they cost under £60 a corner. In the dry they don't grip or wear like a normal tyre. In the cold, i.e. less than 5 deg C or in the snow they were superb. You could drive on a dual carriageway like there was no snow when everyone else was struggling to maintain 30mph! No, really. You have a little less snow grip when they're worn, but I only ever fitted chains once, despite being completely snowed in near Mont Blanc. Anyone without chains wasn't going anywhere, but these were conditions that the UK doesn't generally experience.

Winter tyres on a 2wd car will easily out perform summer tyres on a 4x4, you have better traction and massively improved braking. A 4x4 with summer tyres can accelerate, but can't stop!

I'm looking on Ebay for a cheap set of 15" Alloys for my Mini to fit winter tyres to. Definately worth the cash.

On a sidenote I found that my BMW 5 Series M Sport was extremely good in the snow. Four bags of salt and a shovel in the boot, combined with a light foot, meant that it massively out-performed what I expected. We currently have a C Class Estate, that has poor grip in the dry, worse in the wet and nothing in snow! The C Class effectively replaced a Volvo V50 which, whilst good in the dry and wet, was also less able than the BMW in snow.


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## Kell (May 28, 2002)

ag said:


> On a sidenote I found that my BMW 5 Series M Sport was extremely good in the snow. Four bags of salt and a shovel in the boot, combined with a light foot


Unfortunately, with ours being an auto, it's harder to feather in the power.


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## p1tse (Sep 20, 2004)

thanks

our e61 is running same wheels as yours 8x18 245 40 18 i think standard










i can't fit 16s due to brake size so have gone for 17's. couldn't get hold of the 7.5" wide ones but there are 8x17, which oem is 245 45 17, but i'm going for 225 50 17 which still fits and is narrower tyre










got a pair of vred wintrac coming i hope, judt need to source another pair of what budget permits later on as spreading cost on credit card ;-(

when you fitting yours?


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## Kell (May 28, 2002)

p1tse said:


> when you fitting yours?


Mine are already on...

Long story, but part of the reason our Beemer was so bad is that one of the rear tyres on the M-Sport wheels was virtually bald. So I swapped the wheels out about this time two years ago - figuring I'd order a new tyre in March. I just kept forgetting to do it and kept the winter wheels and tyres on all summer and then there was no point in taking them off as winter was approaching, so I ran them all last winter too.

Pretty much the same happened this year and there's not much point in changing them back now. So I need to get two new ones for the rear as the front are still almost perfect.


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## p1tse (Sep 20, 2004)

got them on


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## phope (Mar 26, 2006)

Put ours on two weeks ago

225/50 R17 Dunlop SP Winter Sport 3D instead of the summer 255/35 R19s


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## Kell (May 28, 2002)

Got ours on the Mini too:

From 16" alloys with Goodyear Eagle NCT5 to 15" with Pirelli 190 Snowcontrol 175/65.

Before:










After:










Picked them up for £200 from a guy on the Mini Forum with less than 2,500 miles on. The tyres, not the guy. When asked why he was selling, he basically said that these were too good. As he never got stuck at all last year, he felt like he could get away with bigger wheels and wider tyres!

They have the added bonus of being Non-runflat. Which makes the car feel a lot better. I actually hated driving the Mini, as it rattled like mad. With these tyres on, scuttle shake and rattles aren't completely gone, but are far less noticeable.


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## techfreak (Aug 13, 2010)

And who said child labour is bad? Lol
Look at the smile on that kids face, and a great job too! 
I'm looking at some winters too, think it makes great sense

Edit:
Just bought some Nokian WR G2 for the Bora hopefully get em on tomorrow, and get the dreadful budget boat shoes off


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## gcp (Aug 8, 2002)

Goodyears for both e91 and mrs fiesta

Not cold enough here to fit them yet


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## hope88 (Mar 25, 2011)

Curious, why does winter tyres have to be smaller in diameter and narrower in width? 19" 265 wide winter tyres not recommended? :mrgreen:


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## phope (Mar 26, 2006)

http://www.oponeo.co.uk/tyre-article/ty ... nter-tyres

Good description here


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## Dash (Oct 5, 2008)

I'm still on summer tyres. I've only seen two mornings with the temperature below 7°C. The evenings tend to be double figures still. I think when this band of wet weather has run it's course it may be time. Planning on going to Wales in a few weeks so will need them on for then. Just have to suffer the embarrassment of my majorly wrecked alloys that they are sitting on.


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## stephengreen (May 6, 2002)

Kell said:


> From the stuff I read, they recommended that you should run thinner tyres in the winter - they'd work better anyway even if you were running the same summer tyres as there's more pressure per square inch (think ice skate versis ski).


Would not the pressure per square inch be the same, if the different tyre widths are inflated to the same pressure? :?


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## Kell (May 28, 2002)

I failed my A-level physics, but I'm pretty sure that if a ca weighing 2 tonnnes is sitting on narrower tyres there will be more pressure for each square inch of tyre that's on the road.

Happy to be corrected though.


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## p1tse (Sep 20, 2004)

two weeks in and going good. even on a regular 200 mile trip the mpg has gone up, maybe because of lighter and smaller wheel?

as the garage quoted me "it wouldn't last two seconds in this warm weather", well it's going good and the non run flats are a joy


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## Dash (Oct 5, 2008)

Still on summers. It's just too warm to warrant winters yet.


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## stephengreen (May 6, 2002)

Kell said:


> I failed my A-level physics, but I'm pretty sure that if a ca weighing 2 tonnnes is sitting on narrower tyres there will be more pressure for each square inch of tyre that's on the road.
> 
> Happy to be corrected though.


If the contact patch is smaller then you would be correct. The point i'm making is that putting narrower tyres on with the same inflation pressure as the wider ones doesn't change the size of the contact patch. Therefore the pressure per square inch is the same.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

stephengreen said:


> Kell said:
> 
> 
> > I failed my A-level physics, but I'm pretty sure that if a ca weighing 2 tonnnes is sitting on narrower tyres there will be more pressure for each square inch of tyre that's on the road.
> ...


The narrower tyre will create a smaller contact patch. The air pressure inside the tyre doesn't change that.


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## JNmercury00 (May 22, 2007)

stephengreen said:


> Kell said:
> 
> 
> > I failed my A-level physics, but I'm pretty sure that if a ca weighing 2 tonnnes is sitting on narrower tyres there will be more pressure for each square inch of tyre that's on the road.
> ...


Have you been on the gin again?

Next you'll be telling me that the outside of a wheel turns at the same speed as its centre....


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## stephengreen (May 6, 2002)

JNmercury00 said:


> Have you been on the gin again?
> 
> Next you'll be telling me that the outside of a wheel turns at the same speed as its centre....


One of the biggest myths in motoring is that putting a wider tyre on enlarges the contact patch which increases grip..which, in my understanding, neither is true.


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## JNmercury00 (May 22, 2007)

So if I put some wheels from my bicycle on I will have the same amount of rubber touching the ground? :?


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

stephengreen said:


> JNmercury00 said:
> 
> 
> > Have you been on the gin again?
> ...


That's just madness. How can a 300mm wide tyre have the same contact patch as a 200mm wide one? If my tyre was 3m wide, would it still have the same size contact patch?


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## Dash (Oct 5, 2008)

I think what you may be trying to say is a bigger contact patch doesn't always translate to better grip. Snow being the prime example of this, a wider contact patch as Spandex says, reduces the pressure. The extra pressure of thinner wheels will increase the chances of traction in slippery surfaces.


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## stephengreen (May 6, 2002)

Spandex said:


> That's just madness. How can a 300mm wide tyre have the same contact patch as a 200mm wide one? If my tyre was 3m wide, would it still have the same size contact patch?


In short yes.
When it was first explained to me by my race team i felt like someone from the middle ages who had just been told the world was round.
Taking Kells 2 tonne bmw as an example. if there is 1000lbs of weight over each wheel of 205 section tyre and you put 38psi in each you would end up with a contact patch of approx 26 square inches (1000 divided by 38) if you then changed the tyres to 225 section with 38psi then the 1000/38 hasn't changed so therefore neither has the patch size only its shape. It becomes wider laterally but shorter longitudinally. because the tyre deforms less to achieve the shape and the shape is in contact with the ground for less in each revolution, less heat is produced. this means a softer compound can be used. Its for this reason and this reason only a wider tyre may give more grip


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

stephengreen said:


> Spandex said:
> 
> 
> > That's just madness. How can a 300mm wide tyre have the same contact patch as a 200mm wide one? If my tyre was 3m wide, would it still have the same size contact patch?
> ...


Unfortunately, that's not how you accurately calculate the contact area. This page explains it in way too much detail, but basically, they say that (weight/tyre pressure) doesn't give you the correct value and that increasing the width does increase contact patch area (although it doesn't increase it proportionally):

http://performancesimulations.com/fact-or-fiction-tires-1.htm


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## ag (Sep 12, 2002)

Don't forget that road tyres work predominantly on the distortion of the rubber molecules into the irregular surface of the road. Winter tyres also work like this on wet or dry roads but in snow they actually cut through it like a tractor tyre in mud. In wet weather a narrower tyre has the advantage of having to move less water and move it less distance, thus reducing the liklihood of aquaplaning. The reason that they are usually of a smaller diameter is cost, but also the ability to drop the pressures far more than is possible for a fat low profile tyre. For real grip in the snow your tyres will almost be falling off the rim with 12 psi!

Modern road tyres have become so adapted to their primary function that of looking good that functions such as grip and ride comfort have become secondary. This isn't actually true. The primary objective is to produce low emissions on newly homologated cars.


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## Kell (May 28, 2002)

ag said:


> The reason that they are usually of a smaller diameter is cost, but also the ability to drop the pressures far more than is possible for a fat low profile tyre. For real grip in the snow your tyres will almost be falling off the rim with 12 psi!


I read the other day that the reason winter tyres grip so well in the snow is that snow sticks better to snow than rubber does and winter tyres are designed to have snow stick to them. So some snow sticks to the tyres, and that snow then makes the tyres even grippier with the other snow.


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## p1tse (Sep 20, 2004)

all an interesting read

well i've covered 600+ miles with new winters on over the last couple of weeks, temperatures probably average 16 degrees. they seem to be fine in warmer temps, but now the temps are dropping so hope it continues to be the same. also seen mpg go up with fresher tyres


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## ag (Sep 12, 2002)

Narrower tyre will help with MPG although I suspect that winter tyres in themselves are worse for fuel economy due to their construction being designed to build up heat, not reduce rolling resistance.

You will find that the winter tyres start to make sense at about 7 deg C and that it is below 4 deg C that they really start to out perform normal road tyres.

Be careful at higher temperatures though and check the speed rating. Proper snow tyres tend to have a low speed rating. In addition it is very easy to overload a narrower tyre especially with the torque produced by a modern TDi engine. Treat the tyres with respect at all times otherwise they will wear down rapidly and soon be no better than a normal tyre when the snow comes!


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## stephengreen (May 6, 2002)

Spandex said:


> they say that (weight/tyre pressure) doesn't give you the correct value and that increasing the width does increase contact patch area (although it doesn't increase it proportionally):
> 
> http://performancesimulations.com/fact-or-fiction-tires-1.htm


That's not what they say at all

" At the same time, the front tire at almost the same load has a contact patch area of 67.35mm. This is almost no change at all, and in fact within a reasonable error limit it is probably sufficiently accurate to say that the wider tire has the same contact patch area as the narrower one does at around 500 lb load"

According to some peoples opinion this is impossible. The author then says

"What is interesting here is that even though the air pressure was lowered, the amount of vertical tire deflection actually decreased at many loads. At 28 psi and 553 lb load the tire radius was 308.3mm versus the 24 psi tire radius of 311.5mm. The calculated contact patch size actually decreased from 67.35 square inches to 58.24 square inches. I don't understand it, but there it is"

This result is the complete opposite to his original argument. Perhaps the inconsistency of the results stems from this simple fact

"Avon did not measure the contact patch size directly. However, it is probably accurate enough for our purposes"

Finally he states

"Wide tires have a greater contact area? From this data it appears very likely."

Coming to this conclusion given the results of of a test that wasn't even undertaken to find the answer to his question is ludicrous. Interesting enough there is another train of thought that says the size of the contact patch isn't relevant as far as grip is concerned anyway. Ive found this web site that explains further

http://autospeed.com.au/cms/title_Tyres ... ticle.html


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## Kell (May 28, 2002)

The way to prove a theory is to test it. Imagine, if you will, a car running on bicycle tyres versus a car with a huge fat steamroller tyre on the rear.

There must come a point when the wider tyre is so wide that the amount of rubber in contact with the road exceeds the total amount of rubber in the bike tyre.


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## JNmercury00 (May 22, 2007)

Kell said:


> The way to prove a theory is to test it. Imagine, if you will, a car running on bicycle tyres versus a car with a huge fat steamroller tyre on the rear.
> 
> There must come a point when the wider tyre is so wide that the amount of rubber in contact with the road exceeds the total amount of rubber in the bike tyre.


Exactly!

Would you believe me if I told you black was really white or the sun is just the moon at night?


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

Kell said:


> The way to prove a theory is to test it. Imagine, if you will, a car running on bicycle tyres versus a car with a huge fat steamroller tyre on the rear.
> 
> There must come a point when the wider tyre is so wide that the amount of rubber in contact with the road exceeds the total amount of rubber in the bike tyre.


The point Stephen was making is actually fairly sensible (despite being fairly counter intuitive). Basically, the important thing is the pressure in the tyre - if you widen the tyre (keeping the pressure the same), the contact patch gets shorter (longitudinally) at the same time as getting wider. The claim is that this means the actual contact patch stays the same area overall and it's pressure that affects contact patch size, not tyre width.

Were you to do this experiment with different sized balloons, you'd see that it actually works - at the same pressures, a bigger balloon has the same contact patch as a smaller one. The problem is, a tyre isn't a balloon. It has an internal structure which differs across it's section and prevents it from expanding or contracting in direct proportion to it's internal pressure. Tyres aren't completely solid (like a steel air tank), but they're not perfectly elastic either.


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## Kell (May 28, 2002)

Well I never.

Perhaps that's why I failed physics.

So why is then, that winter tyres tend to be narrower? In one of the links posted, it says that wider tyres give better cold weather grip.


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## stephengreen (May 6, 2002)

Kell said:


> Well I never.
> 
> Perhaps that's why I failed physics.
> 
> So why is then, that winter tyres tend to be narrower? In one of the links posted, it says that wider tyres give better cold weather grip.


The reason a tyre gives grip is the weight bearing down on it and the coefficient of of the rubber used. I would imagine that a narrower tyre would generate more heat through tyre wall flex and the lower frontal area would help cut through snow and help lower the risk of aquaplaning. Both desirable attributes in cold weather Not sure what the advantages of a wider tyre would be unless it had stickier rubber to start with?


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## stephengreen (May 6, 2002)

Kell said:


> The way to prove a theory is to test it. Imagine, if you will, a car running on bicycle tyres versus a car with a huge fat steamroller tyre on the rear.
> 
> There must come a point when the wider tyre is so wide that the amount of rubber in contact with the road exceeds the total amount of rubber in the bike tyre.


I think its the other way round kell. You are forgetting that the theory says the contact patch stays the same if you go wider with the pressure remaining the same. If you started off on bike tyres, the pressure would be enormous to support the weight. By going wider and increasing the volume of rubber available but keeping the enormous pressure the same you don't utilise it. If you start off on the wide tyre but reduce the volume of rubber available then you would have to increase the pressure to support the weight.


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