# What value a life?



## mighTy Tee (Jul 10, 2002)

In court today, an illegal imigrant, driving witout a licence, an untaxed, uninsured, car without MOT, having run over an 8 year old boy killing him and driving off.

Sentance:

For Driving Offences Total 8 months
For imigration offences 16 month

Fucking Disgraceful

THE LAW IS AN ARSE


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

What?  

Where did you read about this?


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## mighTy Tee (Jul 10, 2002)

On the news tonight - Happened in Sussex nr Brighton


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## phil (May 7, 2002)

You're joking. That's murder.


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## phil (May 7, 2002)

Oh and I don't think him being an illegal immigrant has anything to do with it.


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## mighTy Tee (Jul 10, 2002)

See http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/southern_counties/3461783.stm


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

Sucks


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## Dont I Recognise You (Oct 10, 2003)

BIg Time 

don't trust myself to write anything more - evn in here


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## saint (Dec 6, 2002)

As the topic says - What value is a life??

A very deep question which I think will never be answered here. :-/


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## jgoodman00 (May 6, 2002)

Hmm, why bother locking him up?

There must be supply planes going to Iraq. 
How many people would mind if he was deposited from 35,000 feet into the desert?


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

The penalty for running away from an accident is LESS than if you report the accident, in which a death occured.

So the law encourages us that if we accidentally kill someone to run away. If found the penalty is less that if you report the death yourself.


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## Kell (May 28, 2002)

> Oh and I don't think him being an illegal immigrant has anything to do with it.


Actually - in this case it does.

IIRC the guy should have been deported 16 months before the incident as his appeal failed. Â He then disappeared.

Had the people involved done their job properly and booted him out then he wouldn't have been here to cause the accident. Â :-/


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

> In court today, an illegal imigrant, driving witout a licence, an untaxed, uninsured, car without MOT, having run over an 8 year old boy killing him and driving off.
> 
> Sentance:
> 
> ...


Aparently the police wasn't happy with the judge's ruling.
This guy should have had 10 years at least and deportation


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## 55JWB (May 7, 2002)

Just makes you think, If a person is 'illeagal' then they are not going to bother with Ins etc there must be thousands out there  Poor family


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## jgoodman00 (May 6, 2002)

> So the law encourages us that if we accidentally kill someone to run away. If found the penalty is less that if you report the death yourself. Â


Yup, its a disgrace. 
In Oct 2002 one of my best friends from school was hit by a car. The driver fled the scene, & much later reported hitting a 'deer or something'. Luckily for my friend, the car following had a nurse in, who saved his life. The police eventually arrested the driver, who was found to be over the drink-drive limit. 18 months on my friend is in a rehab center & doing amazingly well, but remains paralysed & is a different person due to the head-injuries he sustained. This bearing in mind he was a Cambridge graduate, & the best mathmatician I have ever seen.

The punishment for the driver was a 9month ban... :-/


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

I think you can bin the word "justice" in this case: a sad story about your friend :'(


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

> Yup, its a disgrace.
> In Oct 2002 one of my best friends from school was hit by a car. The driver fled the scene, & much later reported hitting a 'deer or something'. Luckily for my friend, the car following had a nurse in, who saved his life. The police eventually arrested the driver, who was found to be over the drink-drive limit. 18 months on my friend is in a rehab center & doing amazingly well, but remains paralysed & is a different person due to the head-injuries he sustained. This bearing in mind he was a Cambridge graduate, & the best mathmatician I have ever seen.
> 
> The punishment for the driver was a 9month ban... :-/


What would have been the sentence if he had reported the accident and helped your friend?


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## Marque (Jun 4, 2003)

This is an appalling situation. I can offer only my sympathies to anyone & all on the receiving end of any motor incident. However this is not enough.

We do need mandatory checks on drivers for tax, MOT etc etc. The powers are there, but they are not being enforced. Beds Constabulary are putting up more speed camera on a stretch of the A1 from Blackcat roundabout to Buckden. This is not motorway standard (alot of turns & crossings) & in this instance I do concur this is acceptable. Accidents are too common here.

But nowhere do I see any active enforcement re tax discs, etc. Let alone a inspection re licenses. If we were to have the plastic license (with photo id )scanned/swiped @ the pump then without authorisation no fuel. It would help cut down the George Best's infringements would it not? Would you agree to such an action?

I thnk the time is comgin when we may have to consider something along these lines.

Re Pedestrian & cyclist safety: In my part of the world cyclists are actually being put in the way of vehicles by traffic calming (forcing cyclists away from the kerb into choke points). Not to mention sizable unrepaired pot holes that are dangerous to cyclists & motorists alike.This is my example of local government getting it wrong. And badly so. A traffic camera will not make an inherently unsafe road in poor condition any safer. It will be of little comfort that the car is obeying the speed limit when you fall in front of it.

Being very cynical about this you could say in the UK "Life is cheap, it is just living that is expensive". Government view the UK population as a farmer views a field of corn. We're self setting & each month it's time to harvest @40%.

Looked at that way, the lack of any rational, coherent common sensical strategy to pedestrian/cyclist & motorist segregation on our roads is not surprising.

Mark
80% pedestrian, 10% cyclist 10% motorist


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## phil (May 7, 2002)

> Actually - in this case it does.
> 
> IIRC the guy should have been deported 16 months before the incident as his appeal failed. He then disappeared.
> 
> Had the people involved done their job properly and booted him out then he wouldn't have been here to cause the accident. :-/


No, that's just fate. The problem here's not that the bloke shouldn't have been in this country. The problem is there are thousands of people in this country who don't insure their car or get it MOTed etc etc. And the crime is the fact that he ran away from the scene of a fatal accident. The way that this is being reported is just more xenophobia as is all too common in the press nowadays. Like it's the immigrants who are ripping us off and taking benefits, although they're a tiny fraction of those who are ripping off the system. 
It's obvious that the only reason he ran away was because he didn't want to get caught. But there are thousands out there who would do the same thing if they didn't have their car insured or taxed, or were drunk or on drugs or countless other reasons. 
I really despise the fact that it takes racism for the British press to highlight the fact that the benefit system in this country sucks.


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## phil (May 7, 2002)

> Looked at that way, the lack of any rational, coherent common sensical strategy to pedestrian/cyclist & motorist segregation on our roads is not surprising.


I snipped most of your post but, well said.
I personally think that most traffic calming measures, particularly cycle lanes are purely token gestures. Most cycle lanes simply mark out the bit of the road bikes use anyway. They don't stop motorists going there, and usually allow people to park on them.


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## Marque (Jun 4, 2003)

Hmmnnnnn. Bedford has on a series of kerbs that jut into the road. There is no section that allows the cyclist to ride staright on. So in the planners wisdom the cyclist is placed i the same narrow bit of road as the car. Who was the brains behind that? Accident Group?

We have to physically segregate motorists & cyclist wherever practical. Just like Germany attempts to do. Lets loose the useless grass at the side of the urban road on one side, make it a cycle path. Otherwise we get pedestrian v cyclist contacts (but at least those are mostly survivable).

Is this really beyond the wit of man?

Rant over.


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## Hannibal (Dec 1, 2003)

> We do need mandatory checks on drivers for tax, MOT etc etc. The powers are there, but they are not being enforced.


I aggree, however I feel that driving licences at the pumps is possibly the wrong way to go about it for a number of reasons:

1. Petrol companies would be reluctant to pay for it, so the taxpayer would foot the bill.
2. Â There are a number of systems ALREADY in place which could do as good a job (if not better).
3. People may see it as an infringement of their public liberty
4. people who drive without tax/insurance/mot are reluctant to pay for their fuel too

As far as illegal immigrants should go, appeal denied = air ticket home and escorting onto plane. Â There are a number of measures coming in which will make it harder for them to buy their own car too - new V5c docs etc. Â There is a paper to be motioned in the house of commons in the next week or so which calls for an insurance disc (like your tax disc) to be displayed by law - I personally feel this is a waste of time and money (although the idea in principal is worthy) as the current tax disc is a failure (there are so many people who get away without having one) and that what is needed is a system to look at the cars on the road and check if they have the paperwork required (oh look we already have loads of ANPR cameras). Â So IMO the most efficient way for tracking all these things would be...

Use ANPR (Automatic Number Plate Recognition) scameras to check each vehicle has:
1. MOT (soon to be registered with DVLA)
2. Insurance (scrap the disc idea and register it with the DVLA - would reduce fraud too)
3.Road Fund licence (already registered with DVLA)

and for the folks who haven't it could let the local plod know where they are travelling, so they can go and arrest some real offenders....

I know it's not ideal, but it don't infringe on civil liberties any more than they are already doing and as most of the infrastructure is already in place, it won't cost a great deal to set up.

As far as the sentances go for some of these people I am appalled - I would get a year's ban at least if i was done for DUI and some of these people have killed, had no licence, insurance or buisness being in this country and got away with less. Â I don't know the ins-and-outs of these cases, but what is repotred in the media is shocking and I'm sure the victims families will lose faith in our justice system as a result. Â hearing these stories makes you understand why people like the BNP can get seats on the local council :-/.

H
[/rant]


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## s3_lurker (May 6, 2002)

He's just had his 8 month driving prison sentenced reduced to six months. 
Words fail


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## mighTy Tee (Jul 10, 2002)

> He's just had his 8 month driving prison sentenced reduced to six months.
> Words fail


 [smiley=speechless.gif]

<shakes head and wonders what IS the CPS really on?>


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## Hannibal (Dec 1, 2003)

> He's just had his 8 month driving prison sentenced reduced to six months.
> Words fail


Just as well he wasn't speeding...http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...ash10.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/02/10/ixhome.html

A mother who killed her daughter and her friend after crashing her car into a **** at high speed was jailed for two years.

Heather Thompson, 41, hit speeds of between 80 and 90mph as she raced along a bumpy country road despite her daughter, Abbey, begging her to slow down.

Not sure exactly how they got the details as presumably the mother didn't tell the police she was driving dangerously but it just goes to show the difference in sentance for an illegal immigrant vs a native citizen.....

H


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## Kell (May 28, 2002)

Well, I had a think about this last night after reading Phil's comments.

And the only thing I can think of is that perhaps the guy wasn't driving dangerously.

I assumed that he was. But maybe the kid just stepped out in front of him and it was the kid's fault.

Perhaps then they couldn't do him for dangerous driving which, presumably, carries a greater sentence than driving without insurance, MOT and tax.

ANd then I kep thinking, well no. None of that matters. It still boils down to the fact that he was here and should not have been. Not, he was here while waiting for his application. Not, he was here while waiting for his appeal. But he was here, because the dozy bastards that should have kicked him out didn't.

Perhaps they should prosecute the immagration officers involced as them failing to do their job led to this guy hiding here and managing to buy a car that he then couldn't tax, insure or MOT and so when he did have a crash, he was so scared of being caught and deported that instead of stopping to help, he fled the scene.

Would it have changed the outcome? Maybe not, but I still can't see how him being here illegally is not directly related to this case (and this case only).


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## bilbos (Jan 16, 2004)

I did read that after his jail sentence he was to then be deported.

The phrase horse and stable door spring to mind.


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## Guy (May 13, 2002)

What is happening to the Judge who can't even get simple sentencing right? He must be a large buffoon (allegedly) surrounded with dim-witted staff (allegedly). Presumably as well as the Judge, there would be 2 Barristers, Solicitors and the clerks all with their heads up their backsides (allegedly) and holding their hands out to collect the Legal Aid fees (allegedly). Justice?

It might or might not be the kids own fault (or the fault of the driver who stopped in the first lane and waved the kids in front of him as the convicted chap overtook him)(allegedly) but that guy should NOT have been driving or have been in this Country. What's worse, how long will it take him to come back and relieve us of more Legal Aid funded money whilst he does a runner during his appeal time? Just how stupid are we over here?


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

> Not sure exactly how they got the details as presumably the mother didn't tell the police she was driving dangerously but it just goes to show the difference in sentance for an illegal immigrant vs a native citizen.....
> 
> H


The details must have come from the witnesses. The article states that she was overaking other cars, so the other drivers could estimate her speed.


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## phil (May 7, 2002)

> Would it have changed the outcome? Maybe not, but I still can't see how him being here illegally is not directly related to this case (and this case only).


I'm not saying that it didn't affect it. Of course it did. If the guy wasn't there then it wouldn't have happened. My problem with the situation is:

Anyone, even after all these years, can buy a car and drive it round without tax, MOT or insurance, and not get caught until something tragic like this happens.

The fact that he ran away, in reckon, is because he didn't want to get caught and deported. A terrible thing, running away after killing somebody, but it's understandable albeit not condonable why he did so.
I also think that anybody else could have hit the kid. I don't know if it was the kid's fault, or the driver's, as from what the news reports said, there was no evidence either away. Again, if somebody else had hit the kid, and was driving within the rules of the road (discounting the fact that he had no tax, insurance etc. which probably aren't factors when considering whether or not the child was hit) it would be a tragic accident and not a crime. I've run somebody over before. Fortunately I was doing about 10-15 mph but I could do nothing about it (idiot ran out between parked cars in front of me, whilst on her mobile phone), but it didn't stop me feeling completely shit about it. In those sort of situations people panic :-/

Saying that if the guy hadn't been there it wouldn't happen is true, but completely circumstantial. It's not his fault. It's the system's, for not deporting him. If I was an illegal immigrant and knew I was going to be thrown out, I'd go out of my way to escape. These people don't come here for a holiday, they come for a better life.

I personally don't think illegal immigrants come here to sponge off us. I reckon they just want a better life. And it's the fault of the system in this country that they end up sitting in a council flat living off subsidies. Why not tell them they don't get benefits, or at least the bare minimum? Here's a job (there's plenty of jobs out there that people don't want to do). If you don't like it, leave. Sticking a bunch of men in council flats or B&Bs and telling them they're not allowed to do anything isn't helping anyone.
And employers who employ people illegally should be getting punished, as it only encourages them. 
And above all, nobody should be able to purchase or drive a car if they're not entitled to.

Sorry, bit of a rant there.


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## phil (May 7, 2002)

> Not sure exactly how they got the details as presumably the mother didn't tell the police she was driving dangerously but it just goes to show the difference in sentance for an illegal immigrant vs a native citizen.....
> 
> H


I don't think he was let off the hook because he was an immigrant. It's because she was speeding/driving dangerously, and he was driving without paperwork. Different crime. 
Sorry, but I can't blame the judges here. It's the law that dictates these things. It comes down to whether you consider driving dangerously more serious than driving without a licence.


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

> I don't think he was let off the hook because he was an immigrant. It's because she was speeding/driving dangerously, and he was driving without paperwork. Different crime.
> Sorry, but I can't blame the judges here. It's the law that dictates these things. It comes down to whether you consider driving dangerously more serious than driving without a licence.


The outcome in both cases was the same...people got killed. So the court must not charge because you were driving fast or without license, but because your actions took innocent lives away.


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## Kell (May 28, 2002)

Not true Nik. At least not in my book.

There is no evidence to support the fact that in the first case the guy was at fault - when the accident occured.

People have accidents all the time, but in my opinion what the guy did wrong in the first place is run after the accident. What the woman did wrong caused the accident.

Reading Phil's second post, it seems like we're agreeing in essence.


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## phil (May 7, 2002)

Yeah Kell I think so to.

Vlastan, you're charged for the crime not the outcome. Which is why manslaughter and murder are different things. If every incident which ended in someone being killed resulted in someone going down for murder the world would be a very bad place.


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