# Track Day Nerves



## 225sTTeve (Jan 13, 2006)

Taking my S4 on Track this Friday for the first time to stretch her legs.

I've only had the car for a week and I'm just getting used to the handling - my initial impression is that it doesn't handle as well as my 225TTC but maybe it's just because I'm still getting used to it.

Are there any other A4/S4 owners that have track experience.

What should I be aware of compared to the TT?


----------



## TSCN (May 23, 2006)

225sTTeve said:


> Taking my S4 on Track this Friday for the first time to stretch her legs.
> 
> I've only had the car for a week and I'm just getting used to the handling - my initial impression is that it doesn't handle as well as my 225TTC but maybe it's just because I'm still getting used to it.
> 
> ...


The S4 tends to bite all of a sudden without warning. This is what I found anyway driving a friends on a track. You can really really hammer it into a corner and get a little understeer and then all of a sudden it snaps into oversteer and if you're not ready to catch it, the car can be all to easily spun. I tend to pick up odd handling habits of cars though so I might not be the best source of advice. 
The TT was never a track-perfect car though so the S4 will just be different. Whether that is different good or different bad depends on what you look for handling wise in a car on a track.

Tom


----------



## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

Ask jampoTT & scoTTy, they may be able to point you in the right direction :wink:


----------



## 225sTTeve (Jan 13, 2006)

Thanks Tom,

I will heed your advice. I may just take it relatively easy on this session, as I say I still havent got used to the car. If the track day can get me accustomed to the cars characteristics then this would be great.

IMO the S4 feels a little 'lethargic' handling wise if that makes sense?


----------



## 225sTTeve (Jan 13, 2006)

Thanks Paul,

How does the M5 behave on track? - A friend of mine is going tobe changing his M3 for an M5.


----------



## TSCN (May 23, 2006)

225sTTeve said:


> Thanks Tom,
> 
> I will heed your advice. I may just take it relatively easy on this session, as I say I still havent got used to the car. If the track day can get me accustomed to the cars characteristics then this would be great.
> 
> IMO the S4 feels a little 'lethargic' handling wise if that makes sense?


This is what I meant - it sort of "wallows" into a corner and then all of a sudden bites back hard and without warning. Can be scary as I said!

Tom


----------



## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

The S4 is one of the most non-snappy cars I've ever driven.

You can provoke a little tail out action but it's not inherently that way. In fact I've put an RS4 rear ARB on which in theory would make it even more snappy. What it does do is dials out most of the understeer making it very neutral.

This was me demonstrating to Omen666 how safe and easy a Torsen car is to throw around. if you want to have a look at various track days.

Glad to see you're going to take it on track. It's the best way of finding out what a car does on or approaching the limit.


----------



## TSCN (May 23, 2006)

scoTTy said:


> The S4 is one of the most non-snappy cars I've ever driven.
> 
> You can provoke a little tail out action but it's not inherently that way. In fact I've put an RS4 rear ARB on which in theory would make it even more snappy. What it does do is dials out most of the understeer making it very neutral.
> 
> ...


You see my other point proven exactly - I seem to pick out odd handling habbits of cars, probabaly a sh*t driver


----------



## 225sTTeve (Jan 13, 2006)

scoTTy,

Thanks for the advice and video's - I hope to have as much fun as you were having there.

Mine may be a little less predictable as it's Tiptronic so I will be careful of the car changing up & down. I'll use the 'manual' control to prevent this but I've noticed that it will still change gear if you don't but this is minimal an typically operates at the limit of the rev range.


----------



## 225sTTeve (Jan 13, 2006)

scoTTy,

Also what psi would you recommend?


----------



## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

I work to the normal standard advice of adding 10%. You MUST do this when the tyres are cold though. i.e. don't drive to a track and then add another 10% to the already warm tyres.

On track days, before I leave home (often the night before) I inflate them from the normal 39 allround up to 43 all round.

This seems to stiffen the walls enough to stop a lot of flex which inturn keeps the tyre cooler and hence it doesn't overhead or melt down too much. It helps the tyres last longer. A softer tyre may have more grip initially but it won't last very long.

I've driven a Tiptronic S4 at the Audi driving experience and kept it in "manual". I didn't find any problems with it. In fact I was surprised how much control I felt I retained. I was pleasantly surprised.

As with all cars if you follow the rules you'll get the best out of them :

Finish all your braking before turning in.
Hold a constant throttle from turn in point to the apex (or a fraction before) and then steadily increase the gas. You should never had to lift and have another stab.

Be smooth and let the car flow and you'll have a great time. If you get on top of it and have space to practise then try a little trail braking. i.e. turning in whilst still braking a little. This adds more weight on the front of the car (giving more turn in grip) and less weight on the rear (encouraging the back to come around tightening the turn) and it came aid the normal understeering tendencies to turn in better.

If you find you are in too hot and understeering off the road you can either play with lift off oversteer like in my video or just have a slight lift and unwind the steering. Initially it seems the wrong thing to do but by reducing the lock you'll get grip back and hence be back in control.

At the end of the day have fun learning how it handles and keep on the black stuff! :wink:


----------



## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

scoTTy said:


> I work to the normal standard advice of adding 10%. You MUST do this when the tyres are cold though. i.e. don't drive to a track and then add another 10% to the already warm tyres.
> 
> On track days, before I leave home (often the night before) I inflate them from the normal 39 allround up to 43 all round.
> 
> ...


All good info from the Meister.

The biggest lesson i've learnt from instruction is to 100% make sure the only action you're executing entering a corner & through to it's apex is steering, so all braking (or accelerating if required) & gearchanges are complete before the corner & before you start steering. Of course if you're really going way too fast then you'll need to brake where's safest to avoid an off, but better to over brake before a corner & take it too slow, realising you could carry a further say 10MPH on the next lap & then after a few laps you'll be taking most corners at their correct speed & lines.

It's amazing how simple corners become if you've only concentrating on steering the car.

As for the M5, it's great fun on track but given it's obvious differences to the RS6 it has to be driven very differently, hence why i've taken instruction at every track event i've attended in the M5. It's far less forgiving than the RS, but alot more rewarding to drive & much more driver involvement. It aint ever going to be a great track vehicle given it's proportions & weight, but then no family car will ever be such a thing, however it does feel very at home on track & very enjoyable.

Enjoy your track day & as scoTTy says, just don't go mad & you'll soon learn how your car behaves which once know will enhance your enjoyment greatly.


----------



## clived (May 6, 2002)

W7 PMC said:


> The biggest lesson i've learnt from instruction is to 100% make sure the only action you're executing entering a corner & through to it's apex is steering, so all braking (or accelerating if required) & gearchanges are complete before the corner & before you start steering.


Mostly. Certainly the simplest approach to braking, but I'd be surprised if a competent instructor wouldn't start to mentor a competent student in the art of trail-braking....


----------



## kmpowell (May 6, 2002)

W7 PMC said:


> The biggest lesson i've learnt from instruction is to 100% make sure the only action you're executing entering a corner & through to it's apex is steering, so all braking (or accelerating if required) & gearchanges are complete before the corner & before you start steering.


I couldn't agree more! Both in the TVR (at combe) and the VX (at Bedford) I was taught about NOT braking into corners and it's the biggest learning experience you will get. It changes your power delivery and driving style a great deal making you a mocu more smoother and compentent driver once you have got the jist of it.


----------



## clived (May 6, 2002)

So neither Kev nor Paul think trail-braking, done correctly, is the quickest way round certain corners.... anyone else?


----------



## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

clived said:


> So neither Kev nor Paul think trail-braking, done correctly, is the quickest way round certain corners.... anyone else?


Clive,

You're no doubt right, however i'd be happy to try that in someone elses car but less keen in my own car. The basics are fairly easy to adhere to once you get your head round it & the way i now take virtually every corner on a track. The consquences of getting trail-braking wrong as it's a more tricky cornering style in the car i have to drive home in are a lttle too great for my liking. Agree it's perhaps a shade quicker round the corner but the risk outweighs the benefit for me.

My last instruction was the Continental test driver for Porsche at Nurburgring & if he suggests just keeping to the basics for cornering then i'm happy.

Also worth noting that trail-braking is slightly easier & slightly more useful with an All Wheel Drive vehicle than RWD & secondly i really don't want to be messing with the weight balance too much on an already well set-up M5, as that V10 lump up front weighs quite a bit more than the TT or RS4 lump so i'm happy BMW knew what they were doing with their weight distribution, as they've always tended to be very good at finding the 50/50 balance (far better than me anyhow).

Plus you're a track monster, i'm still a mere novice (although improving) :lol:


----------



## IanWest (May 7, 2002)

What is trail braking?


----------



## kmpowell (May 6, 2002)

clived said:


> So neither Kev nor Paul think trail-braking, done correctly, is the quickest way round certain corners.... anyone else?


I never said that, I said for a novice it's a valuable lesson to start with.

I am going on what full time instructors have told me. I am sure once you become competent and experienced that there are other ways, but for the beginner there should only be one. It teaches you how to not upset the balance of the car.


----------



## clived (May 6, 2002)

W7 PMC said:


> Plus you're a track monster, i'm still a mere novice (although improving) :lol:


LOL - that's so not true - I'm getting better, but I really don't consider myself anything other than novice.

On the point of trail-braking use though, I discovered it by accident really - going into Bobbies at Combe, a little hot  Braking from a very late braking point to roughly half way (or maybe even slightly more) to the apex is doable, and does get you through and thrown out the other side very quickly  But I was in a "proper" 4WD car, so your comments on 4WD vs RWD may well be correct - haven't tried it RWD...

Ian, I guess the above might answer your question?


----------



## clived (May 6, 2002)

kmpowell said:


> clived said:
> 
> 
> > So neither Kev nor Paul think trail-braking, done correctly, is the quickest way round certain corners.... anyone else?
> ...


You did kind of. Paul said "The biggest lesson i've learnt from instruction is to 100% make sure the only action you're executing entering a corner & through to it's apex is steering" and you "couldn't agree more"  I don't see the word "novice" in your post at all ;-)



kmpowell said:


> W7 PMC said:
> 
> 
> > The biggest lesson i've learnt from instruction is to 100% make sure the only action you're executing entering a corner & through to it's apex is steering, so all braking (or accelerating if required) & gearchanges are complete before the corner & before you start steering.
> ...


----------



## kmpowell (May 6, 2002)

clived said:


> You did kind of. Paul said "The biggest lesson i've learnt from instruction is to 100% make sure the only action you're executing entering a corner & through to it's apex is steering" and you "couldn't agree more"  I don't see the word "novice" in your post at all ;-)


That's becasue I was talking in the context of the thread. Steve stated it's his first time out in the S4 and I was agreeing 100% with what Paul said about learning as a novice!

Simple really.


----------



## clived (May 6, 2002)

kmpowell said:


> clived said:
> 
> 
> > You did kind of. Paul said "The biggest lesson i've learnt from instruction is to 100% make sure the only action you're executing entering a corner & through to it's apex is steering" and you "couldn't agree more"  I don't see the word "novice" in your post at all ;-)
> ...


See I thought you were talking about your experience and Paul's experience, as you were quoting him ;-) And I don't think either of you are "novices" (even if it was always potentially too wet for you to make it to a TTOC track day  (and why doesn't the forum have a sticky out tongue smiley?! ).


----------



## kmpowell (May 6, 2002)

clived said:


> kmpowell said:
> 
> 
> > clived said:
> ...


I was talking abotu my experiences. Having only done a handful of trackdays, I class myself as a novice.


----------



## clived (May 6, 2002)

But not compared to Steve, who has never been out... and was asking for feedback from those with more experience... so the context of the thread is information from non-novices ;-)

What are we talking about - it must be Friday! Even better, it appears to be beer o'clock. No beer smiley either!


----------



## kmpowell (May 6, 2002)

clived said:


> But not compared to Steve, who has never been out... and was asking for feedback from those with more experience... so the context of the thread is information from non-novices ;-)
> 
> What are we talking about - it must be Friday! Even better, it appears to be beer o'clock. No beer smiley either!


But on my first time out in both the TVR and VX, I was taught about NOT braking into corners. Therfore it is a very valid for Steve.


----------



## clived (May 6, 2002)

kmpowell said:


> But on my first time out in both the TVR and VX, I was taught about NOT braking into corners. Therfore it is a very valid for Steve.


Shhhh - beer - spoiling 

I do of course agree. Whilst you're learning, don't brake into the corners. Just don't assume as I read Paul's post to imply, that it's the only way forward (or indeed round the corner).


----------



## jdn (Aug 26, 2002)

Bit petty isn't it?

If you are after an improved time and maximum performance trail braking will help.

If you are new to a track and then don't try it at all, it will not be worth anything over concentrating on the basics.


----------



## 225sTTeve (Jan 13, 2006)

Guy's

Thanks for such excellent advice and experiences shared.

Sadly I was unable to attend the track day due to my poor mum be taken very ill. 

I'll have to give it a go hopefully in a few weeks time.


----------



## garyc (May 7, 2002)

clived said:


> So neither Kev nor Paul think trail-braking, done correctly, is the quickest way round certain corners.... anyone else?


Anyone who can drive a Caterham or 911 'aound the edges' might disagree, since getting the wheelbase of the car moving around it's polar axis (ie fore/aft COG) _through the corner_ is the key to the next level of track driving and that more fluid style that the really good drivers have which carries more speed everywhere, giving best lap times and often embarrassing the Power Houses.

I do not profess to have this, but would love the time and the right machinery to develop it.

That, with all due respect, would not be an S4,where as pointed out- slow in; line up apex after braking; and squeeze back on power whilst inherent nose heavy Audi understeer washes out; is the order of proceedings for track days. You can still post some decent times, but the understeer seems to last forever in Audis on track. I have not driven the latest RS4.

And the reason the S4 is ore stable is imho more due to the longer wheel base than the torsen/haldex differences.

RWD for track. You'll get so much more out of it. And your front tyres will thank you more. :wink:

Enjoy.


----------



## garyc (May 7, 2002)

IanWest said:


> What is trail braking?


It's the act of using the brakes to change the forward and rear weight distribution (rather than purely shedding speed) of the vehicle, as the car leaves the braking zone and turns in towards the apex. It enables a skilled driver to take the first part of the corner in 'bites' - alternating brakes-on and a balanced-to-positive throttle, to change the attitude of the car without using the steering, apart from for correcting what is a steady state turn in. If that makes sense.

I understand it in theory, but doing it is another thing. I would not attempt it in a disarmed M5, but have tried in a Caterham with mixed results.

But as ever, practice makes perfect. And it's all about learning and understanding how much more there is always to learn in car on track.


----------



## HighTT (Feb 14, 2004)

As a driver of a track toy that is rear wheel drive and has no electronic
aids at all, I stuck to the basics of 'always brake in a straight line' for quite some time ( only trail braking by accident when I had missed my braking
points  ) 
My car suffers from inital understeer, but after being tutored around Donington in the 'art' of trail braking my lap times came down and my satisfaction went up  
I didn't find it easy to begin with and in fact had a few embarrasing spins
as I failed to lift off the brakes progressively enough.


----------



## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

I'll let you know what happens tomorrow when I try trail braking in a

350Z
Caterham Superlight
Clio Cup Touring Racer
911
JP1
Formula Palmer Audi


----------



## jdn (Aug 26, 2002)

It may put you in a spin...

Still be fun though.


----------



## jdn (Aug 26, 2002)

garyc said:


> IanWest said:
> 
> 
> > What is trail braking?
> ...


Hmmm, not sure I agree 100% with that theory, particularly the comment on 'alternating brakes-on and throttle'.

I find explanations relating to the 'friction ellipse' make more sense - but hard to explain without drawings.

I understand it as a way of allowing you to brake deeper into the corner - and hence later and therefore more time on throttle. The initial turn in to a corner has little cornering force needed and there is 'spare grip' available from the contact pacth. You use this spare grip as braking force. The challenge lies in the fact that as you approach the apex cornering forces and G-force load up the tire and there is little or no 'spare grip' for braking - hence the need to ease of the brakes up to the apex as you load up the sidewalls and generate slip angle. It usually requires constant smooth braking reducing in time with progression of cornering angle - certainly not a time to be alernating brake and throttle and not a method of changing the cars yaw angle.

All IMHO of course.


----------



## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

jdn said:


> It may put you in a spin...
> 
> Still be fun though.


It almost did in my S4 at Spa at the bus stop but as you say it's fun.


----------



## garyc (May 7, 2002)

jdn said:


> garyc said:
> 
> 
> > IanWest said:
> ...


Err yes. Far too technical for me.

In a Caterham one uses trail braking and a balanced throttle to lose the intial understeer and 'move' the car up to and through the apex. There is already little or no spare grip and you are using this to alter the cars attitude.

However one defines it - and appliaction in 4wd cars is different since the braking keeps loading at front end, thus lightening rear to help turn in when th car wants to plough on - it's a matter of going against the convention of straight line braking, then turn in, in order to quicken the cars corner entry speed without sacrificing the exit rate , therefore carrying more speed thru the corner.


----------



## garyc (May 7, 2002)

scoTTy said:


> I'll let you know what happens tomorrow when I try trail braking in a
> 
> 350Z
> Caterham Superlight
> ...


If you are trail braking within the 3 flying laps allowed in any of the JP tin, then I am impressed. :wink:

He has a good line up of cars this year.

It'd take my all day in the JP GT3(?) to turn in on the limit and trailing the brakes. 

Enjoy Paul. I do always wish there was more laps in less cars at JP Aotodrome, but it's still a great day. 

Trouble with Palmer


----------



## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

The Bus-Stop, what a great chicane :lol:

I'll do a full write up later of the trip, but just to make point at Bus-Stop, this has to be one of the hardest technical corner sequences i've ever driven. I managed to cause lift-off oversteer, lift-off understeer, a full drift & a couple of almost wall/tail slapping actions :lol:

Apart from Eu-Rouge it was by far my favourite sequence of corners. Very hard to get through on perfect lines in an M5 & even harder to get all the horses planted coming out without some kind of tail out action.


----------



## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

garyc said:


> scoTTy said:
> 
> 
> > I'll let you know what happens tomorrow when I try trail braking in a
> ...


I had a lot more that 3 flying laps in all the cars....and didn't attempt trail braking on any of them. I was having too much fun. I'll review it in a bit. :wink:


----------

