# Excessive rear camber with standard suspension?



## peter-ss (Sep 3, 2008)

I've recently embarked on what turned out to be a long winded project of measuring and adjusting my TT's geometry DIY style.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=182170

I've found that my rear camber is excessive; it's 2.5 degrees but should be very close to 1.5 degrees. I've worked out that to correct this I'll need an adjustment of 4mm in one of the tie bars on each side for 2mm in both.

This seems a bit odd as I have standard suspension with new springs and new outer standard tie bar bushes.

I've looked into the standard tie bars and there appears to be quite a few variations of them (similar part numbers).

I'm wondering now what is the difference between these slightly different standard tie bars; possibly they're slightly different in length and my TT may have the wrong ones?


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## neil_audiTT (Sep 1, 2010)

i'll be interested to see what the difference is too.

As i'd rather go for standard different sized tie bars than spunking 300 quid on a set of forged ones!

Fair play on the wheel alignment tool you made!


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## Marco34 (Apr 5, 2009)

I was talking to John H about this and he wrote on AbsoluTTe how he had a bad experience with 1.5 camber. Her said he was going to increase to increase rear grip. I had my 3.2 lowered but did not use tie bars. Camber is quite a bit but handling is amazing. I probably sacrifice some more wear on the inner edge but at 3,000 miles a year I can afford the excessive wear. I guess it's how you drive and tyre wear preference.


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## Charlie (Dec 15, 2006)

I know that the top and the bottom ones are different lengths, can't remember which way round though - so you may have the incorrect ones fitted?

I know my TTR was right on the edge with standard suspension, but not that bad. When I dropped mine 80mm they adjusted my tie-bars by eye as I wanted to let it settle before getting an alignment and within 500 miles I had really bad tyre wear on the inside of the rear tyres.

Charlie


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## neil_audiTT (Sep 1, 2010)

with the noise the tyres make as they wear on the inner edges. It sounds worse than a wheel bearing!

out of shape rear tyres arnt fun!


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## Fictorious (Sep 15, 2009)

Post facelift suspension will always have camber issues as all they did was change the springs, I've seen a few non-modded TT's with obvious camber issues.


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## steveupton (Mar 23, 2010)

Fictorious said:


> Post facelift suspension will always have camber issues as all they did was change the springs, I've seen a few non-modded TT's with obvious camber issues.


My car is post facelift, all suspension is original and therefore stock. The insides of the rear tyres are wearing and you can actually see the negative camber when looking at the back of the car so have to agree with Fictorious. Does anyone have any further information on this, such as whether there was recall by Audi or is it just a question of "that's the way they are"?

Also does anyone know if the Superpro adjustable tie bar bushes have enough adjustment to cure this?


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## Grapo (May 6, 2007)

The camber looks good though. I have the same noticeable camber on the back on standard suspension.


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## liffy99 (Feb 28, 2007)

Same with me. I have post facelift suspension and camber of about 2.25. I wrote to Audi about it (inside edge tyre wear) and all they said was that it was trade off for the better handling of the sports suspension. As Fictorious wrote - all sports suspension was just lower springs and Audi could'nt be ars*d to redesign the tie bars to match.

Only fix is adjustables . . . .


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## peter-ss (Sep 3, 2008)

liffy99 said:


> Same with me. I have post facelift suspension and camber of about 2.25. I wrote to Audi about it (inside edge tyre wear) and all they said was that it was trade off for the better handling of the sports suspension. As Fictorious wrote - all sports suspension was just lower springs and Audi could'nt be ars*d to redesign the tie bars to match.
> 
> Only fix is adjustables . . . .


I've assumed that my 1999 225 has standard suspension; is this correct?

If I've got sports suspension then the camber is supposed to be more that 1.5 and I may be within tolerenace?


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## liffy99 (Feb 28, 2007)

Assume you are right - I don't think sports suspension was an option then. Sports is 20mm lower.
Came out with 2002 model year I think.
If so your camber angles should be about -1.3 or so if I recall (which is where they all should be).
I see TT spares have a special on adjustable tie bars at the moment in the FS section . . . . .

Me, I'll put up with it rather than look at well over £300 (fitted) to change.


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

Pre facelift had upper arms 115mm and lower arms 119mm. I've not measured post facelift but the data is slightly different:










This only tells you what camber to get with certain ride height and then shows that nothing is bent. It does not show you an ideal, just what the standard geometry will give you.

It terms of best tyre wear 0 degrees is best but will go +ve camber and give massive oversteer on cornering. -1.5 degrees is pretty modest I think and will give you long tyre life but I did find that when set to -1.5 degrees it was limiting my cornering performance by causing too much oversteer without ESP and with ESP; cornering was getting limited by the ESP system causing understeer to compensate and correct for the oversteer.

This also depends on your ride height and ARB stiffness, so is best as a tuned setting depending on your setup. I re-set mine to -2.25 degrees and found that much better as now it's more neutral. I've got a Golf 4-motion 16mm rear ARB and standard 20mm front on coilovers lowered by a modest 12mm from pre facelift to 355mm.


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## ttsteve (Nov 1, 2007)

Yup, the Audi chart simply shows camber vs ride height. It does NOT mean that you have to set your camber to the value that corresponds to your ride height. What it means is - for better or for worse - that that's the sort of figure you should EXPECT TO SEE angle wise, and it is not necessarily correct for optimum performance, and quite often, it is actually wrong. There is very little adjustment on the TT for camber - the square root of sod all actually.

As a general rule, 1.5 degrees is considered optimum for good, all round, road performance. So that is what you should be running if you don't want to end up with badly worn tyres and/or handling issues. Hence, if you want to achieve 1.5 degrees, then strictly speaking, adjustable tie bars should be deployed on any and all cars that are post face lift (or whenever they lowered it), or, if you lower the car yourself with lowering springs. It's really not a question of 'getting away with' it if you want it to wear and perform well. As has been said, you can go to 2 degrees plus (and maybe not need tie bars), but in that case you will defo be wearing the insides of tyres out early. You pays yer money and you takes yer choice!


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## peter-ss (Sep 3, 2008)

Thanks for all your replies on this.

John - Interesting information on the length of the arms. In my naivety I bought a full set of new standard traverse link / tie bars with bolts and bushes via eBay that were listed for a TT, when I was having rattly suspension problems. When they arrived I found that I had four identical bars with the part number 1J0 505 323 E and four rose joints with bolts.

When I checked with Audi they said that I needed two 1J0 505 323 L and two 1J0 505 323 N; it sounded as if these part numbers had altered over time, which got me wondering if they'd had a change of heart at some point and modified the bars? Also the rose joints had been superseded by rubber bushes. To cut a long story short I bought a set of outer rubber bushes and bolts, fitted them and kept hold of the eBay parts.

My intention since getting involved with the tracking set up was to get the rear camber from the 2.5 degrees it is now back to the 1.5ish that it should be. After reading about your experience, as I'm not getting excessive tyre wear, I may just leave things as they are or I could buy another set of bolts and try and get a bit of adjustment from the play in the fixing points.


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## ttsteve (Nov 1, 2007)

peter-ss said:


> Thanks for all your replies on this.
> 
> John - Interesting information on the length of the arms. In my naivety I bought a full set of new standard traverse link / tie bars with bolts and bushes via eBay that were listed for a TT, when I was having rattly suspension problems. When they arrived I found that I had four identical bars with the part number 1J0 505 323 E and four rose joints with bolts.
> 
> ...


Pete, as I said, there's very little movement on those fixings. At the recent TTshop visit, my car was used to demo the alignment facility, and I also spent some time afterwards watching and talking to the guy while he adjusted things. He showed me how much movement there was in that fixing - next to nothing, and you have you hit it hard with a hammer at that to get it to move just a fraction. If you want to get to 1.5 from 2.5, you need adjustable tie bars, end of story I'm afraid. Otherwise, go for the track set up of 2.5 degrees and you'll be replacing tyre leather all the time - and maybe kidding yourself that the car's handling is actually any better at spirited road speeds - after all, if the car doesn't misbehave when cornering at your normal cornering speeds, what's the point in having extra camber for the sake of wearing tyres out early? If you're a very fast driver who likes to take it to the edge when cornering, that's another thing, and you'll be prepared to keep buying tyres to maintain high speed cornering ability.


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## TTCool (Feb 7, 2005)

It's not possible to make a blanket statement about what rear camber to use. I'm running 1 deg 30 mins camber on the rear and find it perfect. There are other things which will impact on whether that is the right amount for your particular car and driving style; damper setting, spring rate, toe-in, tyres and tyre pressures...soft, medium and hard compound. The new Michelin PS3 is softer than the PS2 and I'm finding the handling spot on. I have a very small amount of oversteer, it's just right for me and gets me round corners with consumate ease. I think it's too simplistic to say more camber equals better grip/handling.

I'll be posting up my latest experience with regard to 4 wheel alignmant at a race preparation company. I've just arrived back so maybe tomorrow.

Joe


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

Later revised arms have slots instead of holes which allow for more adjustment - still better with a proper adjustable screw thread though. I was running 2.5 degrees before I fitted the Forge tie bars and although my rear tyres would wear bald on the inside edge this was at the point where the rest of the tyre was down to minimum 1.5mm tread anyway. Rotating front to back prolonges tyre life so it's not the end of the world. I got 17k out of Toyo T1Rs - mostly motorway admittedly.


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## peter-ss (Sep 3, 2008)

Thanks again for everyone's input; this is getting ever more intriguing!

John - It's very interesting to find that the later revised arms have slots rather than holes; this explains why Audi were talking about one part number being superseded by another.

With this being the case I might see how the new arms that I already have (1J0 505 323 E) measure up with the view of slotting them myself.



















ttsteve - To be honest I don't really want to fit the adjustable tie bars unless I have to as the car is completely standard and I'd like to keep it that way if possible. As the suspension's completely standard and the springs are new I'd expected the factory camber setting to be achievable, if it isn't then I will have to go for the adjustables as you suggest.


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## neil_audiTT (Sep 1, 2010)

post up your findings when you do swap them over!


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## petesky (Jul 24, 2002)

In my experience (and after also visiting Audi, Star Performance and the TT Shop) it would appear that post 2002 (S-Line and later) that you will wear out the inner tyre edge usually on the near side rear.
This is almost the defacto standard.

As ttsteve put it, with the OEM set-up then there's no real adjustment in toe or alignment. Audi recognised the problem too late and rather than do a recall which would be costly they ignored the outgoing Mk1 TT and just made the Mk2 TT have adjustment on all axis.
Therein lies the issue, _*there is no Audi solution to this problem*_. My local dealership said with all new suspension they can always get it "in tolerance" but who wants to pay for all new suspension every 3 years :?:

Even with stock OEM suspension pre-Sline/Sports when the springs tire/fade/sag at the rear then the camber will probably go out and eventually the toe may even go also. This is why Audi recommend you get alignment done every year. Bad camber and toe combined will scrub any tyre. I was getting about 4K with my Michelin PS2's because of bad alignment and that was mainly motorway cruising so no fast, aggressive cornering.

The only solution is aftermarket bushes and/or adjustable tie bars.
With my car lowered by 25mm which is pretty similar to standard S-Line/Sport set-up I needed 2 sets of adjustable tie bars to get the wheels to align correctly.

Pete, I know you want to keep OEM set-up but adjustable tie bars are strongly recommended regardless, sorry. 

Peter


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## peter-ss (Sep 3, 2008)

I think as you're saying, adjustable tie bars will be best as they give easy and precise adjustment.

I do want to look into the slotted standard tie bars that John-H mentioned though, as I already have a set of standard tie bars that I may be able to slot myself.

Oh, and I've got new springs front and back so the ride height shouldn't be ok (rear measured 370mm).



John-H said:


> Later revised arms have slots instead of holes which allow for more adjustment


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

The slots are a pain though Peter every time you adjust you should really buy new stretch bolts and as said there's not much movement. Proper adjustable tie bars are so much better.


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## peter-ss (Sep 3, 2008)

John-H said:


> The slots are a pain though Peter every time you adjust you should really buy new stretch bolts and as said there's not much movement. Proper adjustable tie bars are so much better.


Ok, I'm going to have to give in to the adjustable tie bars, I think.

Just a thought though.

If the cause of the excessive camber is compression of the top tie bar bushes and I fit adjustables to the bottom, pulling the bottom in to match; the rear track width will be reduced.

Is it possible to end up pulling the hubs in too far against the CV joints and drive shafts?


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

There is quite a lot of end float in the splines - you'd have to go a long way to take it up. You can always yank the shaft in and out to test I think. I've never heard of anyone having this problem. You don't need much movement to alter the camber - something like 4mm per degree on the lower arm I think.


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## peter-ss (Sep 3, 2008)

That's reassuring as I'm out by pretty much one degree and had calculated needing about 4mm of adjustment.

Good suggestion with checking the driveshaft for free movement afterwards; I'll do that.


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