# Car choices - what would you do?



## b3ves (May 6, 2002)

*11 month old Exige S2 or 3 year old supercharged Honda Elise*​
Honda's the daddy - go for it!1555.56%Old for new and modified to boot - are you nuts?1244.44%


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## b3ves (May 6, 2002)

In my relatively brief time as a Lotus owner (2 years), it's become clear that the 'daddy' on track days is not an Exige S2 with Toyota power but a K series engined car (S1 or S2) with a supercharged Honda VTEC engine conversion. These cars put out around 300bhp to propel around 800kg, versus 190bhp to propel 900kg and use the same aluminium chassis. The Honda conversion costs around Â£13K, versus an estimate of around Â£8K to get mine supercharged to bring it to 250bhp.

Now, here's my opportunity. There's an immaculate 3400 mile 2003 top-spec Elise with fresh supercharged Honda power advertised for the same price as I could sell my car for - Â£26.5K.

Am I mad to consider it? Please help me in my time of need.

Cheers
Rob


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## kmpowell (May 6, 2002)

If it's the Grey one (with red alcantara) and black OZ'ss, i've seen advertised in Birmingham, that started life as the Sport 190, then hell yeah go for it! 

You'll have to take the harnesses out the Exige though, cos that one hasn't got them.


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## b3ves (May 6, 2002)

kmpowell said:


> If it's the Grey one (with red alcantara) and black OZ'ss, i've seen advertised in Birmingham, that started life as the Sport 190, then hell yeah go for it!
> 
> You'll have to take the harnesses out the Exige though, cos that one hasn't got them.


Yeah, that's the one. Harness isn't compatible but can be sourced for around Â£250.


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## kmpowell (May 6, 2002)

b3ves said:



> kmpowell said:
> 
> 
> > If it's the Grey one (with red alcantara) and black OZ'ss, i've seen advertised in Birmingham, that started life as the Sport 190, then hell yeah go for it!
> ...


I doesn't state what type of Type R engine it is though. Try and find that out, it will tell you alot at what kind of punishment the engine will take on the track.


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## b3ves (May 6, 2002)

kmpowell said:


> b3ves said:
> 
> 
> > kmpowell said:
> ...


It's a UK Civic Type R engine


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## DW225 (Jun 22, 2005)

I've seen that one too....very tasty! [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

Dave 8)


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## genocidalduck (May 19, 2005)

Exige for me....It just looks so fecking mean :twisted:


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## martin_read (May 13, 2002)

Have you driven a caterham ?

cheers

martin


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## kmpowell (May 6, 2002)

b3ves said:


> kmpowell said:
> 
> 
> > b3ves said:
> ...


In which case then is 197bhp as standard. That means the supercharger (as i'm sure you have done the maths) is popping an extra 103bhp! Hmmm, if it were a Accord engine it would be popping 90bhp and a JDM engine would be popping and extra 80. Now i'm no mechanic, but 100bhp from a supercharger seems a hell of a lot(?). The Type R engines are already VERY highly tuned, and having had a think about this overnight I personally don't think I would like to be running a car at such a high state of tune. If it were running 260, then i would consider it, but 300 is just too risky IMO.


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## coupe-sport (May 7, 2002)

Rob - came across these when researching Elise buying the other weekend. May be of interest

http://www.auto-teknix.co.uk/audi-conv.htm

http://www.blinkmotorsport.com/cgi-bin/site.pl?home

http://www.brooke-kensington.co.uk/phond1.htm

http://www.maidstonesportscars.co.uk/services/lotusHPE.asp

James


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## Carlos (May 6, 2002)

Does the Elise have aircon?


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## b3ves (May 6, 2002)

No aircon, but tbh I rarely use it in my Exige. Will elicit some feedback from other s/c Honda owners though.

I'd also be giving up ABS, but there are mixed opinions as to whether the pre-ABS brakes were better.

Cheers for the links James


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## Stu-Oxfordshire (May 7, 2002)

b3ves said:


> In my relatively brief time as a Lotus owner (2 years), it's become clear that the 'daddy' on track days is not an Exige S2 with Toyota power but a K series engined car (S1 or S2) with a supercharged Honda VTEC engine conversion. These cars put out around 300bhp to propel around 800kg, versus 190bhp to propel 900kg and use the same aluminium chassis. The Honda conversion costs around Â£13K, versus an estimate of around Â£8K to get mine supercharged to bring it to 250bhp.
> 
> Now, here's my opportunity. There's an immaculate 3400 mile 2003 top-spec Elise with fresh supercharged Honda power advertised for the same price as I could sell my car for - Â£26.5K.
> 
> ...


Rob, 
Bizarrely I was talking about just this topic (not you but the topic) last night with some mates; one of whom wants to buy an S1 Exige - he has found quite a few with the Audi 1.8T lump in it safely tuned to 270/28-bhp. Would this not be a better option for you? It's an engine you know and I would imagine offers similar levels of performance. That said, the drawbacks of an S1 Exige are that it's not a nice place to be with no air con etc....so for long trips this could be a bind.

But in principle yes, do it. I have read a lot about the CTR engines and the concept of supercharging them is widely accepted if it's done properly although KMP is far more versed on this than me.

The concept of what you want to do though, is spot on (ie: sell current car, buy something similar with more POWERRRRRRRRR!).

Personally I would try and stick with the Exige (it has a stiffer shell no?) and offers more driver / passenger protection than an Elise (I have no stats to back this up, just I'm sure I read somewhere that the crash structure is reinforced) which, when you are doing the trackdays we do, is important IMO. How much does the supercharger upgrade cost for the Toyota engine and can you pay for it by selling one of the CF bits on your CSL :lol:

That said, you did say to me that *one* of the reasons you bought the Exige was "the extra downforce" :wink:

<edited to add: I have now won my bet with Carl following your whingeing about power at Cadwell> :roll:


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## paulb (May 6, 2002)

Kevin - the UK engines tend to give about 210-220 bhp in NA form when fitted to an Elise and mapped with a decent ECU. So, not a lot different to the JDM ones.

Rob - I'd be really tempted as a track monster. I think the thing is with a premodified is that it will cost a lot less in the long run than modding your own Exige. 250 bhp in an Exige still isn't that much, they are very heavy now.


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## Carlos (May 6, 2002)

Stu-Oxfordshire said:


> That said, you did say to me that *one* of the reasons you bought the Exige was "the extra downforce" :wink:


Arftastic!


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## Carlos (May 6, 2002)

Rob, what suspension does the Elise have? Are there hidden mod costs to this, ie you have to get Nitrons to punt it around corners properly...?


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## PhilJ (Sep 2, 2002)

Hi Rob

Nice dilemma!

I am biased as I am in the process of getting my S2 Elise converted with a 300 bhp Honda S/C conversion by Maidstone Sport Cars.

There was a long thread on SELOC about the car you are considering. Do a search on SELOC for user â€œeagleâ€ and then look for his thread on â€œvalue my carâ€. That should give you some background on the car in question.

The main thing against this car seems to be that the conversion was not undertaken by one of the recognised installers, therefore I think it comes without a warranty. However, at Â£26k its great value considering the condition, specification etc. If I were buying it, I would see if I could pay one of the known experts to inspect it and give me an honest opinion. If it checked-out then I donâ€™t see it being a problem. Maybe you could buy some form of warranty from a warranty house, or even from one of the known installers?

More than 100 Honda conversions have been done on Elises, so its becoming very well proven. As you can imagine, the performance is staggering. A S/C Hondaâ€™d Elise did rather well at last years Tuner GP.

Kev, regarding your concerns over reliability, quite a few Civic Type R owners have used the Jackson Racing superchargers on the Civic and the install is proving very reliable.

The supercharger doesnâ€™t create the heat you would get with a turbo. The K20a engine may be high power already, but it is very reliable, so an extra 100 bhp through forced induction shouldnâ€™t present any big issues as its running at such low boost and revs arenâ€™t increased.

The beauty of this conversion for me is that the cost was only marginally more than me swapping my 2003 135r for a new Exige. My converted car will be over 100kg lighter and will have 100bhp more than an Exige. Power to weight will be in the supercar category, but as the car is so light, it makes it relatively cheap to track. With the engine over the rear wheels, traction is not an issue.

A Caterham probably makes more sense as an all out track car, but my nearest circuit is over an hours drive away and I like doing track days all year and intend to do some European circuits also. I have no space at home for a trailer and I therefore feel that a Caterham is too impractical for my requirements, especially as I like to use my Elise on the road as well. A Noble is more expensive and I am not convinced that the heavily tracked examples are that cheap to run.

There isnâ€™t currently an Audi engine conversion for the S2 Elise. The Audi lump is heavier. For track work, I would prefer an N/A or supercharged power delivery over a turbo. However, the Audi is awesome value for money and incredibly fast.

There is a black S2 with S/C at Maidstone Sport Cars which I think may be for sale. I think this was up for around Â£30k, but is very sorted. This is worth considering also.

Insurance can be tricky. I have only managed to get one decent quote (via Competition Car Insurance).

Good luck!

Cheers

Phil

PS By the way, are you going to the LOT day on the 14th April? If so, you are welcome to take mine out for a blast.


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## kmpowell (May 6, 2002)

PhilJ said:


> Kev, regarding your concerns over reliability, quite a few Civic Type R owners have used the Jackson Racing superchargers on the Civic and the install is proving very reliable.
> 
> The supercharger doesnâ€™t create the heat you would get with a turbo. The K20a engine may be high power already, but it is very reliable, so an extra 100 bhp through forced induction shouldnâ€™t present any big issues as its running at such low boost and revs arenâ€™t increased.


Sorry mate but i'm still gonna disagree with you. 

The UK Civic Type R runs the K20A2 iVTEC which has very slight different internals(don't ask me what though!) and is mapped differently to give more low end torque, the compromise being the lower BHP output compared to the 220BHP K20A iVTEC found in the JDM Integra/Civic.

S2000's run the F20C VTEC(not iVTEC) engine which gives 240bhp, and of the people I know of who have modded thier S2K with a decent SC kit (mainly AEM & Vortech), have manged 'SAFE' runnings of about 300-315bhp with limited torque. It is well known that launching at 6-7k revs and using the 200lb/ft (obtained by fitting the SC) regularly, will blow the back out of the diff!!!

So with a S2000 running 240 as standard, and a UK civic running 197, that is a hell of a lot more strain you are taking to get the same 300bhp power output! (you can do the maths). I still maintain that running excessivly more than 260bhp through the UK Civic Type R engine is certainly risky and if used hard regularly, it is VERY likely to go bang, leaving you with a huge bill and tears.

It does look nice though! 

















AND if you do do it, the fun you have may be short lived.... but hell is it good fun......
http://videos.streetfire.net/Player.asp ... 6&kw=3&p=2


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## b3ves (May 6, 2002)

Thanks everyone esp. Phil for the feedback.

I've been following eagle's SELOC thread with interest from the beginning and I guess the biggest open question for me (aside from warranty) remains the right value for pre-Honda'd Elises. MrDemon (another ex TT'er) has also raised the same question, albeit in a rather inflammatory way.

The point about downforce* remains valid but I don't fancy an Exige S1 because I want to be able to have the roof off, especially if I'm gonna have to live without aircon.

Will keep you posted.



PhilJ said:


> PS By the way, are you going to the LOT day on the 14th April? If so, you are welcome to take mine out for a blast.


I'm missing that one as I'll be on holiday. Hope the conversion goes well 

*My 111R with S2 Exige suspension, wheels and tyres could not take corners as well as an S2 Exige


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## clived (May 6, 2002)

Now, as you'll all know I'm not really in favour of modifying cars, but in this instance, I think you should go for it Rob ;-)


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

Exige. Downforce. Norfolks best. And more than 'good enough' with stock powerplant, plus benefit of factory experience and support.

Or an R400, plus some extra track lessons. Blow the Loti away.

Just can't see any real cost/benefit for a re-engined car - only snags or major downside potential.


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## omen666 (Oct 10, 2004)

I'd stick with the Exige and focus on carrying as much of the straight line speed through the corners 8)


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

I'd speak to people with direct, relevant experience - and maybe book yourself a demo in a modded car.

For what its worth, whilst I don't doubt Kev's advice, he's only owned (to my knowledge) an unmolested, UK spec S2000 - and whilst his claims regarding the JDM / UK spec VTEC engines may be true, you're probably best speaking to people who have actually HAD these conversions.


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## omen666 (Oct 10, 2004)

Rob is on SELOC.org :wink:


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## kmpowell (May 6, 2002)

jampott said:


> I'd speak to people with direct, relevant experience - and maybe book yourshe's only owned (to my knowledge) an unmolested, UK spec S2000


I ran a UK S2000 for 15 months and 12 of those were with a Mugen CAI and Mugen induction kit on it. You may remember hearing it at AmD on the RR day last year.

I was also on S2K international for a long period of time where i have seen many discussions about Supercharging etc and learnt a hell of a lot about the differrent types of engines used in various cars.

I'm not asking Rob to take my word as gospel, just to simply do some research on the Type R forums, Temple of VTEC and also S2Ki before making a decision that 'I' think 'could' hurt his wallet big time.


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## b3ves (May 6, 2002)

I'm certainly not about to jump in with my eyes closed. A quick poll around the Beves household got the thumbs down with a reminder of the hassles of owning a highly modified car.

Is Gary Handa's Golf still parked outside AmD?


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## sssgucci (Nov 20, 2004)

Off topic but you havejust reminded me ofthat beautiful CSL you own.


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