# Is the RS4 engine the same as the S5?



## Love_iTT (Aug 18, 2002)

After the initial wow factor of picking the RS4 Cabriolet up, things have now settled down to the reality of actually owning and driving the thing and I have to say that I'm still completely in awe of this car.

I must admit that after a couple of days, for some reason I was questioning myself on whether I had done the right thing or not, no particular reason, it was just a feeling I was getting but it soon vanished. I have been getting mixed reactions from people, some saying that they prefered the TTR but most saying that it looks stunning. For me, I'm totaly in love with it and now feel at home and comfortable driving it.

The driving experiance is truely awesome, bearing in mind that I'm not a natural fast driver unlike some on here and have not a huge amount of experiance on other cars so my comparisons are rather limited, but from what I have driven then I can honestly say that this has to be the best yet.

I am only now just starting to open it up occaisionaly (it's still got less than 500 miles on it at the moment) so I can't go that mad yet but even so, I can tell that this thing is going to shift when I'm ready to let it go. I was a bit worried that the suspension was going to be a bit firm but it's fine and very comfortable, obviously no or little roll going into corners and it feels very stable when pushing a little harder. One of the best surprises on the car is the gearbox, it's silky smooth and very precise, hopefully that will continue.

Driving the car is a peach. Everything falls to hand with no awkward switches to find, the seats are very comfy and I'm glad I went for the Recaros rather than the buckets as moving them for people to get in the rear seats is very easy - all electric operation as is the operation of the hood - no handles to unlock, just pull or push on the switch and in about 30 secs it's either up or down. Although I didn't spec the storage package there is everything there; boxes on runners under each front seat, storage bags behind the front seats, cool box in the glove box and various cup holders. Everything feels quality, the leather, the switches, even the paint has great depth to it.

Anything I don't like. Well not really. I suppose if there is anything then it has to be the slightly dated look of the B7 but I knew that anyway but being 'Up to date' is not my thang anyway, I just love the look of this car so being a bit dated is not so important to me.

I hope this has been of interest. Once the car has got a few more miles under it's belt and it's loosened up a bit then I'll post again.

Graham


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## NaughTTy (Jul 9, 2003)

Great to hear the novelty hasn't worn off Graham. You just wait 'til you really can open her up - an astounding car to drive and supremely capable. You may even find yourself becoming a naturally fast driver :wink:


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## IanWest (May 7, 2002)

Did you notice that you can raise and lower the head rests electrically as well! Found that out bored in traffic last week but didn't know about the under seat storage- will have a look in the morning!


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## Love_iTT (Aug 18, 2002)

IanWest said:


> Did you notice that you can raise and lower the head rests electrically as well! Found that out bored in traffic last week but didn't know about the under seat storage- will have a look in the morning!


Hi Ian,
Yes, the dealer told me about the headrests. If you didn't know about the storage under the seats, then you may not know that the front portion of each front seat can be adjusted as well. Find the handle for the seat just below the front of the seat and just below that is the handle for the storage box.

Graham


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

Don't suppose you know what the difference is between the RS4's engine and the S5s? is it just de-tuned?


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## Love_iTT (Aug 18, 2002)

Toshiba said:


> Don't suppose you know what the difference is between the RS4's engine and the S5s? is it just de-tuned?


Haven't got a clue m8 but I'm sure someone will be along who will know.

Graham


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## Kell (May 28, 2002)

Toshiba said:


> Don't suppose you know what the difference is between the RS4's engine and the S5s? is it just de-tuned?


***Dumb question alert***

Isn't the S5's engine just the S4's?


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## jbell (May 15, 2006)

Kell said:


> Toshiba said:
> 
> 
> > Don't suppose you know what the difference is between the RS4's engine and the S5s? is it just de-tuned?
> ...


No the S5 has a detuned RS4 engine NOT the S4 engine. There is a full test in this months CAR Magazine (Ferrari 60th special)


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## shao_khan (May 7, 2002)

There is 4bhp difference between S4 and S5 - so I am guessing same engine - is the S4 FSi?

GLad youre enjoying the car - looks fab in the pictures.


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## Kell (May 28, 2002)

jbell said:


> Kell said:
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> 
> > Toshiba said:
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***Dumb question number two alert***

Isn't the RS4's engine a tuned version of the S4's?

Which would make the S5's engine a detuned version of the RS4's - which is a tuned version of the S4's... [smiley=dizzy2.gif]


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

Kell said:


> jbell said:
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> > Kell said:
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Basic block crankcase and CC are the same. Internals for RS4 were beefed up, new head cams, baffled sump , different oil feeds and crankshaft to attain higher revs than S4 unit without disintegrating. Also different ECU unit with new engine map.

Apart from that, they are very similar. :wink:

Seriously, I doubt that many components are interchangeable.

So RS4 lump is an evolution and development of S4 unit. As for S5 lump, I don't know whether it works back from one (RS4) or forward from another. Logically and in terms of economiew fo scale, component sourcing and testing, line-manufacturing, emissions planning and forward development, it would make more sense to start with the RS4 lump for the new A5 chassis.

A clue may be what Audi did with the B7 facelift across the range - I understand they knicked/installed the S4 suspension to all the B7s, rather than making a development of the old 'normal' A4 suspension.


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

Kell said:


> jbell said:
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> > Kell said:
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Nope, the RS4 uses the newer smaller V8 FSi block. The S4 uses the same V8 as the old (& tbh new) A8's & A6's as well as the base for the RS6 although that has the addition of Bi-Turbo.

The RS4 is the same basic engine as the new R8, however the bottom end of the R8 engine is slightly different as it uses a dry rather than wet sump.

I can't see the S5 using the same engine as the S4, as that block must in it's basic form be close to 10 years old. I also can't see Audi putting the RS4 engine in the S5 as that would dilute the RS brand, however i've no idea which way they'll go. Can see the RS5 (assuming Audi makes it), having the same basic engine as the RS4 as i doubt they'd dilute the upcoming RS6 by using that engine.

Audi are a force unto themselves so perhaps the S5 will have a 6.0Litre W12 engine :lol:


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

Sorry dont want to steal your thunder, it was just a curiosity question. Good to see others are just as confused.

RS5 is to be a twin turbo i read the other day.

Love the colour.


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## Love_iTT (Aug 18, 2002)

Toshiba said:


> Sorry dont want to steal your thunder, it was just a curiosity question. Good to see others are just as confused.
> 
> RS5 is to be a twin turbo i read the other day.
> 
> Love the colour.


No problems Tosh, I changed the heading as it seems more in line with the thread now.

Graham


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

Sorry


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

garyc said:


> Kell said:
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> > jbell said:
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Gary, you sure the externals are the same between the S4 & RS4 engines??

I've seen both engines side by side & they are vastly different externally (meaning without the stick on bits  )

The RS4 engine is smaller & lighter (weight could be more due to internals than external size) & the metals used are differnet (can't recall the exact detail).

Of course some base points will be similar, however i read that about 85% of the the RS4's engine was totally new (i could of course be wrong). :lol:


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

W7 PMC said:


> garyc said:
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> > Kell said:
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Hi Paul,

that's what I was alluding to: very few common parts. Externally visually, if one changes sump and crank case plus heads, plus exhaust manifolds (which I forgot), then even if the block is identical (and it could still be lightened and strengthened plus have different metalurgy) the engines are going to look very different.

To give the RS4 - 1.) the specific higher output and rev ceiling over the S4, and 2.), the necessary duty cycle and longevity for a mass production engine, massive reworking would have been required beyond what one may define as 'tuning'.


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

garyc said:


> W7 PMC said:
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> > garyc said:
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That makes sense


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

Love_iTT said:


> Toshiba said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry dont want to steal your thunder, it was just a curiosity question. Good to see others are just as confused.
> ...


Glad the new motor is living up to expectations Graham!


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## jbell (May 15, 2006)

Toshiba said:


> Sorry dont want to steal your thunder, it was just a curiosity question. Good to see others are just as confused.
> 
> RS5 is to be a twin turbo i read the other day.
> 
> Love the colour.


The RS5 is to have a Twin Turbo RS4/S5 engine.

The RS6 is to have a Twin Turbo S6 Engine.


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

jbell said:


> Toshiba said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry dont want to steal your thunder, it was just a curiosity question. Good to see others are just as confused.
> ...


.

Very brave statement. I think MAY is the word best used at the moment, unless you're a Mole.

So does this confirm the S5 will have the same engine as the RS4?? (me thinks not) Audi would hardly likely dilute the RS brand by popping one of that ranges engines in an S & of course vice versa for the S's.

If the S4 engine was not probably close to end of it's life, i could see that engine in the S5 but given the S5 is just an A4 Coupe, why would they alter their S/RS strategy for this model??

Fully expect the RS4 engine to drop straight into the RS5 (perhaps with a slight re-work).

RS6 i'm hearing the same but also hearing they may force induce the RS4 engine, in which case their's no chance the RS5 would get that engine.

All speculation at the moment. Hope an RS5 does get built, but more interested to find out what the new RS6 is going to be :twisted:


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## jbell (May 15, 2006)

W7 PMC said:


> So does this confirm the S5 will have the same engine as the RS4?? (me thinks not) Audi would hardly likely dilute the RS brand by popping one of that ranges engines in an S & of course vice versa for the S's.
> 
> If the S4 engine was not probably close to end of it's life, i could see that engine in the S5 but given the S5 is just an A4 Coupe, why would they alter their S/RS strategy for this model??


The S5 does have the RS4 engine albeit detuned to only 354 BHP, the RS5 will be out in 2008/9.

The A5 is based on the next generation Audi chassis not the current A4 chassis. The new chassis will underpin all models, obviously modified to suite each varient.

The S4 engine is at the end of its life.

If you buy this months CAR Magazine it has an interview with one of the Audi heads and a test of the S5.

Why would it dilute the brand by putting the RS4 engine in the S5? Audi have placed the S5 to compete with the BMW 335Ci, the RS5 will be head to head the M3 with a Bi-Turbo RS4 engine.


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

...maybe it's a variant of the RS4 engine - without the necessary internals to help it spin to 8K+ rpm. :idea:

ie the same, but different. :lol:


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

jbell said:


> W7 PMC said:
> 
> 
> > So does this confirm the S5 will have the same engine as the RS4?? (me thinks not) Audi would hardly likely dilute the RS brand by popping one of that ranges engines in an S & of course vice versa for the S's.
> ...


I thought it was only me who believed everything i read/heard. :lol:

When have Audi ever dumped an RS engine into an S & vice versa??

Already an RS4 Saloon, Avant, Cabrio & now if you're right basically a Coupe as well, however that would be an S & not an RS?? How's that gonna work??

I'm sure perhaps you'll see a derivative as Gary says, but Audi have & i'd expect will continue to keep the S & RS seperate. Can see the S5 going after the M3 perhaps with 360-380ish BHP (more than possible), but an RS5 with a bi-turbo RS4 engine would be up around 520BHP without trying & then the RS6 would need to be closer to 600BHP for enough of a gap (hardly likely is it?) Me thinks the M3 would be swallowed by a 520BHP A4 Coupe :lol:

Why would Audi launch a whole new range to attack just one variant of a BMW. The A4 already competes with the 3 Series Saloon & Drop Top so i doubt Audi would launch the A5 just to take on the 3 Series CI's.

No doubt some truth in the comments but also a few tall tales i think.

This is the spec of the Geneva Show Car & is thought to be in the S5's currently sat at Audi HQ: 

Power is up to 354 bhp (FSI 4.2), 0 - 62 mph listed as 5.1 secs (rather than 5.6 for the B6/7 S4). Standard spec includes 19" alloys, full leather, daytime running lights. OTR price a shade under 40k

Pretty much what i expected


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## jbell (May 15, 2006)

W7 PMC said:


> I thought it was only me who believed everything i read/heard. :lol:
> 
> When have Audi ever dumped an RS engine into an S & vice versa??
> 
> ...


Here is the article:



CAR Magazine said:


> Because Audi knew BMW was going to launch its M3 this spring and wanted to spoil the Munich firm's thunder. So it decided to launch both the A5 and its hot 354bhp S5 spin-off at the same time. The Â£39,725 S5 isn't so much a rival for the 414bhp M3 though, as a rival for the Â£35,670 twin-turbo 335i. But there are bound to be a few potential buyers prepared to pay a few thousand extra for the M3. And a few more prepared to pay even more - probably more than Â£50k - for the Audi RS5 when that turns up in 2009.
> 
> * It's a 3-series coupe rival with a new-to-Audi swoopy design language. But it's also so much more because underneath those coke-bottle hips is Audi's new MLB chassis. MLB stands for modular longitudinal chassis and it's the architecture that will underpin the Q5 off-roader and A7 coupe as well as the replacements for the A4, A6 and A8. *
> 
> ...





W7 PMC said:


> Power is up to 354 bhp (FSI 4.2), 0 - 62 mph listed as 5.1 secs (rather than 5.6 for the B6/7 S4). Standard spec includes 19" alloys, full leather, daytime running lights. OTR price a shade under 40k
> 
> Pretty much what i expected


You can learn that on the Audi web site :?


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

Correct me if i'm wrong??

You said & then re-stated that the S5 defo had the same engine as the RS4 did you not?? It clearly using your own information has virtually the same engine as the S4, not the RS4.

We've already deduced that their's about 15% in common between the new RS4 & the old S4 engine & even the article you quote states "this boosts peak power to 354BHP" therefore it's hardly using the 420BHP in the RS4 as it's starting point. The S5 has a 4.2 V8, as did my old S8, my more recent A8, my RS6, the S4, old S6 etc etc & that's exactly where the similarity ends (more the engines name than anything else).

Can agree with the BMW vs Audi debate but the cars are never exactly aligned so the M3 will cane the S5 & if Audi do well the RS5 could pull the crown back for a while.

What is curious is Audi using the S brand to gun for a non M model BMW.

Widely written that the old S4 could to a degree match on paper the current M3 & excluding the CSL of course, the new RS4 was/is more than a match, so using the S5 to gun for a regular Bimmer is a tad funny really, but it's all horses for courses.

The A5 looks OK, the S5 looks far better & i'm already down for the RS5 if it arrives as no guarantee from Audi it will ever make production (hope it does though). 8)


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## jbell (May 15, 2006)

W7 PMC said:


> Correct me if i'm wrong??
> 
> You said & then re-stated that the S5 defo had the same engine as the RS4 did you not?? It clearly using your own information has virtually the same engine as the S4, not the RS4.
> 
> ...


Every other article on the S5 states it has the RS4 not the S4 engine in a state of detune, this would obviously give Audi the ability to place the RS5 nicely above it and still have an excellent and considerable more advanced engine in the S5 than the S4. Natural evolution, as is the next generation chassis. I can't see why Audi would put an old engine in a new chassis/car, It doesn't make sense :? To compete with the likes of the 335Ci you need the best engine and the RS4 is clearly better than the S4 engine

I will post the IV with Audi Guy tomorrow, makes for interesting reading.


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

jbell said:


> W7 PMC said:
> 
> 
> > Correct me if i'm wrong??
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"A 4.2L V8 as in the RS4" that's a correct statement "S5 has the same engine as the RS4" is way off the mark.

The same as & i got this wrong originally, the R8 having the same engine as the RS4, although they share about 80% of each others components & the power stats for both cars are the same, however their are distinct differences.

What will no doubt happen is the S5 engine will be totally based on the S4 engine with say 25% modification to freshen it up, strengthen it for the extra power & reduced emissions etc. Bear in mind, the S4 engine itself is a peach & if the S5 engine benefits from FSi as Audi state it will, then it will likely fall somewhere between the S4 & RS4 engine which is exactly what i'd expect.

As Gary states earlier in this thread, the starting platform for the RS4 engine was no doubt the outgoing A8/S4 V8 block.

De-tuning the RS4 engine by nearly 70BHP, given it's NA would be tricky without taking an awful lot away from the basic engine. The base V8 in the S4 with a variety of Audi tweaks has offered outputs between 320 & 360BHP which is in keeping with the range.

Bear in mind the base TT engine (see Golf GTi engine etc.) came in variants of 150BHP through 240BHP with the addition of additional intercoolers, altered timing/mapping & a variety of other goodies but all from the same base block.


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

I disagree Paul. I can't see them starting with the S4 engine. They've done development on it so why would they go backwards.

There were rumours that the S4 would get an FSI during it's life due to the poor mpg. I can't see this old block (despite it's great driving characteristics) carrying on. Time's moved on and so has the development on the engine and the social pressures.

I'd expect an engine based on the RS4 block. I can see it being a few bhp short just to keep the marketing and pub chat's about bhp all in line but that's all.

Actually I've just realised I'm not bothered. I'll judge it on what it gets rather than this guess work. :wink:


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## Love_iTT (Aug 18, 2002)

Love_iTT said:


> Toshiba said:
> 
> 
> > Don't suppose you know what the difference is between the RS4's engine and the S5s? is it just de-tuned?
> ...


Oh little did I know... :roll:

Graham


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

If it helps i feel bad.


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

Sorry G.

It's just like pub chat. You start on one subject and it wanders off.

So have you got a new car then?


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

Love_iTT said:


> Love_iTT said:
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> 
> > Toshiba said:
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Possibly the most accurate comment on the thread. :wink:










:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

scoTTy said:


> Sorry G.
> 
> It's just like pub chat. You start on one subject and it wanders off.
> 
> So have you got a new car then?


So where are you going on holiday this year Paul? Anywhere interesting? :wink:


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

scoTTy said:


> I disagree Paul. I can't see them starting with the S4 engine. They've done development on it so why would they go backwards.
> 
> There were rumours that the S4 would get an FSI during it's life due to the poor mpg. I can't see this old block (despite it's great driving characteristics) carrying on. Time's moved on and so has the development on the engine and the social pressures.
> 
> ...


But Paul, if you read the above article, it states "the trusted V8 with the addition of FSi" so perhaps exactly what you thought has actually happened.

TBH i'm with you on the not caring & trying to 2nd guess Audi Marketing. I stand by Audi not putting an RS engine in an S & vice versa but given all engines are developed at some point from their previous incarnations, those with an S5 will state it's an RS4 engine & those with RS4's will state it aint. Just like RS4 owners could state they have basically the same engine as the R8, but you can bet R8 owners will defend & say they don't have RS4 engines :lol:

Back to horses for courses & i'm looking forward to the specs on the RS5/6


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

scoTTy said:


> Sorry G.
> 
> It's just like pub chat. You start on one subject and it wanders off.
> 
> So have you got a new car then?


Like that would ever happen :lol:


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## raven (May 7, 2002)

Have I missed something - why the speculation about what engine is in the S5 when in tests by both Evo and Car magazines as well as interviews with Audi they state that it is the RS4 engine?

Must admit I couldn't care less either, that was until I saw the S5 at the Expo at Canary Wharf and now want one. Anyone know what the waiting list is? Can't bear to phone the Audi dealer.


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## BAMTT (Feb 22, 2004)

raven said:


> Have I missed something - why the speculation about what engine is in the S5 when in tests by both Evo and Car magazines as well as interviews with Audi that it is the RS4 engine?
> 
> Must admit I couldn't care less either, that was until I saw the S5 at the Expo at Canary Wharf and now want one. Anyone know what the waiting list is? Can't bear to phone the Audi dealer.


I'm sure they'll sell you that one on the stand.......................for a price


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

raven said:


> Have I missed something - why the speculation about what engine is in the S5 when in tests by both Evo and Car magazines as well as interviews with Audi they state that it is the RS4 engine?
> 
> Must admit I couldn't care less either, that was until I saw the S5 at the Expo at Canary Wharf and now want one. Anyone know what the waiting list is? Can't bear to phone the Audi dealer.


Because Audi state in their blurb that it's the trusted 4.2 V8 with the addition of FSi (no mention of RS4/R8 engine). Trusted would suggest older & that would suggest S4 engine.

Are Audi more likely to drop the older V8 with the addition of FSi (to improve fuel consumption & reduce emissions) into the S5, or significantly de-tune the current RS4 engine?? Who knows, however different camps have different stories or different versions of the same story.

Given both the S4 & current RS4 engines are 4.2 V8's you'd expect some crossover between the blocks so i guess unless Audi fess up we'll never know for sure. My money is on revised S4 engine rather than de-tuned RS4 engine but who knows??


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

Circles?

The acid test is:

which engine does the S5 unit share more common parts with?

1. The older S4 unit
2. The newer RS4 unit.

Poll anyone?


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

25% RS4 / 75% S4.

My starter for 10


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## raven (May 7, 2002)

I reckon 100% RS4. And I want one.


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## genocidalduck (May 19, 2005)

Couldnt be assed to read the whole thread. Just put my bit in.

The RS4 is a new engine. ASs someone said its smaller and lighter. The S5 is having every up to date toy Audi have. So it will have the new V8 FSI engine. Just not as tuned as the RS4 or R8 version. As the old S4 eninge is now being made obsolete. As is the 3.2 V6 in the new TT. Hence the reason i can't be bothered to look at another TT until they put the 3.6 FSI into it.

I'm having my test drive next month.


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

raven said:


> I reckon 100% RS4. And I want one.


Of course :lol: :lol:


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## Templar (Mar 9, 2012)

Interesting when you read some early threads and the debates that get generated. 
Sort of reminds me a bit of the mk3 TT thread and what looks and engines may be used. Be nice if Audi stick the new S4 3.0 V6 Supercharger. Hmm nice.


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

Deja Vu


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