# VAG Engine Strategy



## garyc (May 7, 2002)

I see that a 250 hp 3.2 fsi V6 is appearing in the new A6 (tested in this weks Autocar). By all accounts it is a better unit than the narrow angled VW VR6 3.2 lump doing service in the TT. r32 and A3. They say it compares more than favourably with the BMW 3.0 six, which like BMW or not, is high praise. Better economy than the VR6 and better low down torque with a higher 7200rpm rev ceiling.

My question is how do people think these two units will feature across the range. Historically VW has been for transvers applications and the true 60 degree V6 for longitudinal installations. Will this continue?

I guess the real point of interest is what Audi choose for any TT follow on. It seems that the new A6 platform also offers better handling since the engine is now mounted behind instead in front of the front wheels, giving better weight distribution, and hence more neutral handling. (less inherant understeer)

I presume the next A4 will also use this platform. Will the next coupe/TT?


----------



## vagman (Sep 6, 2002)

The 3.2 engine in the TT is a lovely smooth engine with bags of oomph and it is a nice change from the 1.8T. So the 3.2 engine that'll feature in the A6 must be something special.

If and when a new TT is introduced, the entry level car may be powered by a 2.0FSiTurbo developing 200bhp. The current 3.2 will also feature and the range may be topped by a 3.2T.

I am, of course, assuming that the next generation TT will be based upon the A3 platform and there may not be room enough to fit the wide angled V6 under the bonnet.

Dunno if the A4 engine bay is/will be big enough to take a longitudinal engine so I would imagine that only the A6, A7, A8 and Nuvolari will be able to accomodate this type of layout.


----------



## ronin (Sep 6, 2003)

Audi claim a 0-60 of 6.9 from the 3.2 fsi se engine in the A6 - i was very impressed with that considering the weight of the car.


----------



## garyc (May 7, 2002)

vagman said:


> The 3.2 engine in the TT is a lovely smooth engine with bags of oomph and it is a nice change from the 1.8T. So the 3.2 engine that'll feature in the A6 must be something special.
> 
> If and when a new TT is introduced, the entry level car may be powered by a 2.0FSiTurbo developing 200bhp. The current 3.2 will also feature and the range may be topped by a 3.2T.
> 
> ...


That was my question/assumption really Vagman. _Will_ any TT follow up be based on the A3 or A4 platform? I think it's safe to assume the next A4 will use the new A6 platform cut down, just as the previous A6 used a stretched mk1 A4 platform.

I think if they are to raise the ante in the handling stakes dep't for the next TT that a shrunken A6(or next gen A4) platform with superior weight distribution, may be preferable to the transverse A3 base. Although the improvement of the Golf V and A3 over their earlier versions may go agianst this.

Bit of a conundrum. The current TT is the only vehicle in it's class with a tranverse engine in a modified Fwd platform. With A6 Audi have the opportunity to start with something altogether better dynamically, than they did when they made the TT mk1.

I have read about the 3.6 r32 eleswhere, but have hav also heard that the VR6 VW unit is at the limit of it's capacity in bore terms and that the new Audi fsi unit is fundamentally more efficient. :?:

My money is on a TT follow up with a longitudonal engine. But that's just a guess.


----------



## ag (Sep 12, 2002)

My thoughts are completely different. I believe that future A6 models will be more closely related to the A8. The next generation A4 would logically be more closely related to the A3. This would imply a transverse arrangement for the engine and gearbox. This is vastly superior for packaging and mass centralisation than the longitudinal layout, but does not lend its self to full time four wheel drive in the same way. As fuel consumption and pollution become more of an influence on car design the use of four wheel drive will reduce. As heavy oil engines are flavour of the month the transmission design will need to take into account their enormous Torque. This bodes well for future petrol engined versions as you can have enormous BHP and still use a stock transmission. The next generation TT will possibly therefore use a modified, although still transverse, A4 platform, probably with four wheel drive and a selection of engines limited only by the imagination.

However this is all guesswork! :?


----------



## garyc (May 7, 2002)

ag said:


> My thoughts are completely different. I believe that future A6 models will be more closely related to the A8. The next generation A4 would logically be more closely related to the A3. This would imply a transverse arrangement for the engine and gearbox. This is vastly superior for packaging and mass centralisation than the longitudinal layout, but does not lend its self to full time four wheel drive in the same way. As fuel consumption and pollution become more of an influence on car design the use of four wheel drive will reduce. As heavy oil engines are flavour of the month the transmission design will need to take into account their enormous Torque. This bodes well for future petrol engined versions as you can have enormous BHP and still use a stock transmission. The next generation TT will possibly therefore use a modified, although still transverse, A4 platform, probably with four wheel drive and a selection of engines limited only by the imagination.
> 
> However this is all guesswork! :?


Nothing wrong with guessing - especially intelligent speculation.

So, I am sure that I have read that the next gen A4 is moving to RWD (with 4wd as option) in a bid to compete better with the 3 series dynamics? And that the next Passat goes transvere engine FWD o na different (stretched Golf?) platform.

Plus, I'd have though that the front lengthways installation actually spreads weight better between the wheel base, than a front transverse installation? In the 3 series the motor is set quite well back in the chassis with the leading edge behind (or level with) the front axle. That to me is the key to it's great balance.

Time will reveal, but your A3 to A4 and A6 to A8 analagy is intersting. Does the new A6 share platform parts with the A8?


----------



## ag (Sep 12, 2002)

> Does the new A6 share platform parts with the A8?


Absolutely no idea.

The transverse layout moves the engine more or less in line with the front wheels. The current A4 has the engine in front of them. I believe that the engine is further back in the new A6. The ideal for a normal road car in terms of weight distribution is front mid-engined with a transaxle. i.e. front longitudinally mounted engine behind the front wheels and the gearbox between the rear wheels. The problem is the packaging issues. i.e. long bonnet, small boot. For all-weather traction however front wheel drive is still superior to rear drive. Never forget that the UK market is very different from other world markets. We have a large, although decreasing, number of company cars and a temperate climate. In France for example there are far fewer company cars and you only ever see rear drive BMWs and Mercs in the large towns and cities. I would therefore be extremely surprised if the next gen A4 was a rear driver because in many ways its front drive is enough to sell it in some markets.


----------



## garyc (May 7, 2002)

I agree. The majority of drivers don't really care which end drives, as long as it drives well. It's just us enthusiasts who get excited.

Since the A6 and A8 are both new models, and I suspect on different platforms, the key will be what existing platform the next gen A4 is based on, or whether in fact it has a completely new one.


----------



## ag (Sep 12, 2002)

I've just read the Autocar article about the new A6. 252BHP through the front wheels with nothing but traction control to keep it on the road. It would be interesting to see a drag race between a FWD and a 4WD version of the same car on a DRY but bumpy road to see the benefit of Quattro/ powerloss due to traction control. Quattro may weigh more but if the TC is cutting in all the time, you may as well have a smaller engine for all the gain you are getting. That said if they genuinely manage 0-62 in 6.9sec (the same as the 250BHP SAAb) then it's not bad going.

Looks however are an entirely different kettle of kippers. I'll reserve judgement until I've seen one in the metal.


----------



## vagman (Sep 6, 2002)

garyc said:


> That was my question/assumption really Vagman. _Will_ any TT follow up be based on the A3 or A4 platform? I think it's safe to assume the next A4 will use the new A6 platform cut down, just as the previous A6 used a stretched mk1 A4 platform.
> 
> I think if they are to raise the ante in the handling stakes dep't for the next TT that a shrunken A6(or next gen A4) platform with superior weight distribution, may be preferable to the transverse A3 base. Although the improvement of the Golf V and A3 over their earlier versions may go agianst this.
> 
> ...


Whilst I can see where you are coming from Gary, I can't see the next generation TT being based on anything other than the new A3 platform.

Audi have the Nuvolari, which will be based on the new A6 platform, then there is the Le Mans quattro to consider as well. Therefore, I can't quite see the logic of introducing another coupe of similar size into the mix.

The TT is a small coupe and I think/hope that Audi will keep it this way, albeit with the imperfections, i.e. steering, brakes and 1.8T engines, recognised and dealt with accordingly. (the 3.2 q already sports improved steering and brakes and this bodes well for the TT mkII, whenever it arrives)

By the way, I wonder what has happened to the A4 coupe. It was supposed to make it's appearance last year, but everything has gone very quiet on that from. Last I heard was that the board of Audi ag didn't like the look of the proposed car and told the designers to go back to the drawing board. Maybe it will finally appear later this year when the facelifted 'big grille' A4 is launched.


----------



## garyc (May 7, 2002)

vagman said:


> By the way, I wonder what has happened to the A4 coupe. It was supposed to make it's appearance last year, but everything has gone very quiet on that from. Last I heard was that the board of Audi ag didn't like the look of the proposed car and told the designers to go back to the drawing board. Maybe it will finally appear later this year when the facelifted 'big grille' A4 is launched.


Well commercially the 3 series BMW Coupe has never suffered from it's unadventurous saloon-derived styling!










Thay have the cab and will probably graft the Grouper Fish corporate grill on that..

But I read A4 coupe had been canned too.

As was the Peugot 405 Coupe which was remarkably similar in execution:


----------



## ag (Sep 12, 2002)

On the A4 Coupe front I image that when they'd tried to use bits from Cab the car was so heavy that it was never going to be competitive. Didn't they also have a design with the rear opening rear side doors a la RX8?

Overall its a shame they haven't produced the one in the photo. If they didn't graft the gapping mouth on it (fat chance) I'd have been very interested in one to replace the TT.


----------



## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

The future is the usage of FSI engines in all their cars. The FSI engine in a VAG innovative product and they plan to introduce it everywhere.


----------



## coupe-sport (May 7, 2002)

> The FSI engine in a VAG innovative product


Its just a form of direct cylinder injection. Mitsubishi first used it a few years back in the GDI engines.

James.


----------



## vagman (Sep 6, 2002)

garyc said:


> Thay have the cab and will probably graft the Grouper Fish corporate grill on that..
> 
> But I read A4 coupe had been canned too.
> 
> As was the Peugot 405 Coupe which was remarkably similar in execution:


Mmmmm....very tasty looking. 8)

I hadn't seen that photo. Is there a front shot available?


----------



## garyc (May 7, 2002)

vagman said:


> garyc said:
> 
> 
> > Thay have the cab and will probably graft the Grouper Fish corporate grill on that..
> ...


None official from Audi.










With suicide rear doors.



















Oh and this one from a keen amateur...

Each to his own.


----------



## vagman (Sep 6, 2002)

Thanks Gary.

A4 coupe would be a worthwhile addition to the A4 range.

It is a handsome looking car and I reckon it would be a big seller.


----------



## garyc (May 7, 2002)

vagman said:


> Thanks Gary.
> 
> A4 coupe would be a worthwhile addition to the A4 range.
> 
> It is a handsome looking car and I reckon it would be a big seller.


I thought it was nice too. S4 spec (maybe with RS4 flared arches) would be a real looker. And like i said the conservatively styles approach did BMW sales no harm with the 3 series coupe.

That we havn't had it already does not bode well for an A4 coupe. I read that the VAG board rejected it, but that a Wide Mouth Frog Grouper A6 nose is being grafted onto one as a further 'study'.

Now a cut down new A6 platform with the engine in the right place and the V8 4.0 tdi diesel, torsen quattro with a nice set of coupe clothes ( and a slim front end) would float my boat. Unlikely though.

I think an A4 coupe would probably impact the TT coupe run rate, although I am not sure what effect the A4 cab had on TTR sales.


----------

