# Salary expectation - best answer to this email?



## mike_bailey (May 7, 2002)

I applied for a job but the ad didn't have a salary against it. I believe I'm perfectly qualified for the job and I really want it but I got the following email from them this afternoon...

_Dear Michael

Thank you for applying for the xxxxxxxxxx position at xxxxxxxx.

We are interested in your skills and experience, however before we take your application any further, Iâ€™d be grateful if you could give me an idea of your salary expectations, so that we can see whether you fit into our salary structure.

I hope you donâ€™t mind me asking you this at such an early stage.

I look forward to hearing from you soon

Kind regards_

Obviously I want to earn more than I'm currently getting and I've checked a few salary monitoring websites the ranges for this type of job. However, even with these in mind I'm not sure I should answer the question at this stage? Choices...

- Give a reasonable figure based on my current salary + 20% (say)?
- Quote the maximum I've found in the salary monitoring websites?
- Refuse to answer the question until we've met?
- Ask them what their salary structure would allow for this position?
- Something else I haven't thought of?

I'd appreciate any advice.


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## ezzie (Jul 2, 2004)

It depends whether you really want the job or not. If you do, the best thing is as you suggest asking what the salary structure for such a post will allow. If they reply with the same question, then may as well be honest, state current earning with the expectation of a raise to consider the move.


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

Never discuss salary until end of first meeting (interview) 'they' can afford you, as long as you are able to add more than your costs to their bottom line.

Dear X,

Thank you for you letter.

It is indeed unusual to be in salary discussions before we have agreed the value I could bring to your operations. Not unusually, I would prefer to make the sale _before_ getting into salary discussions. That gives us both a chance to explore our mutual suitability and joint interest in proceeding, before putting a price on things.

If you wish to share your budgetted upper and lower salary ranges for the position, then I would be happy to share my salary expectations, which will of course be commensurate with my qualifications, experience and capabilities.

But i would prefer to demonstrate these to you at interview.

Yours.....


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## Gizmo750 (Sep 16, 2004)

garyc said:


> Never discuss salary until end of first meeting (interview) 'they' can afford you, as long as you are able to add more than your costs to their bottom line.
> 
> Dear X,
> 
> ...


A fantastic response. Measured and confident but not cocky or cheeky and not likely to put anyones back up or to alienate you or adversely affect your chances of progressing to interview.

I was going to offer much the same sort of advice but to be honest I couldnt put it any better.


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## shelley (Nov 22, 2004)

I would tell them what you are currently on and add that you would be looking for some increase on this.

Otherwise you can go through the whole process then find they can't come anywhere near your expectations and that you have wasted your time.


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## jbell (May 15, 2006)

garyc said:


> Never discuss salary until end of first meeting (interview) 'they' can afford you, as long as you are able to add more than your costs to their bottom line.
> 
> Dear X,
> 
> ...


Don't agree with this at all, can be interpreted as arrogance.

I always ask people what their salary expectations are as well as their current salary as well as their gross remuneration (benefits).

The answer to that question helps me determine their real motivations and expectations for a move.

Obviously you have applied for the job so you are actively looking for a move so the motivation is already there but you still need to be realistic.

Every company has a set structure that they have and need to adhere to for reasons of harmony and cost control. Salary discrepencies can cause really bad problems in departments.

The job advert should have given you an idea of what they are expecting to pay so if that figure is in that bracket there should be no problem in answering the question, realistically you should aim for a rise of 10% on your current BASE salary then add on the benefits etc.

This is a tight financial period and companies do not have as much cash to throw around as they would like, but there is always room for manouver.

If money is the only reason for moving then don't bother, you could earn 10k more and be more unhappy in work (I have seen this).

You should be more interested in the opportunity and where this can lead i.e promotion, this is of more interest to a potential employer and will sell you to them more than "I want 55K".

The other reason is they don't want to IV someone who is overqualified/overpaid, this is just a waste of time.

You should give them all details in the beginning, wasting time with letters and phone calls wastes their time and yours.


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## RK07 (Jul 31, 2007)

garyc said:


> Never discuss salary until end of first meeting (interview) 'they' can afford you, as long as you are able to add more than your costs to their bottom line.
> 
> Dear X,
> 
> ...


Agreed.


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## RK07 (Jul 31, 2007)

jbell said:


> garyc said:
> 
> 
> > Never discuss salary until end of first meeting (interview) 'they' can afford you, as long as you are able to add more than your costs to their bottom line.
> ...


IMO opinion this depends entirely on your own (realistic) confidence in your own capabilities. There is a marginal difference in confidence and arrogance and I personally like to meet people who sit a little in the middle.

Also depending on the position they may be judging you on your reply to see how you address their unusual question - the wrong answer and it may be the end of your application.


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## jbell (May 15, 2006)

RK07 said:


> jbell said:
> 
> 
> > garyc said:
> ...


I doubt Mike would have applied for the job is he was not confident in his own abilities to do it.



RK07 said:


> Also depending on the position they may be judging you on your reply to see how you address their unusual question


I can't see why this is an unusual question, in a first phone IV I always ask people what they are expecting salary wise swiftly followed by "What is your current salary", this will show if they are being realistic or not.

I never send a CV to a client without salary details on, this saves mine and their time.

My clients and I are busy enough without constantly having to go back and forth asking for more information.



RK07 said:


> The wrong answer and it may be the end of your application.


So time is saved, you don't have to go for an IV for a job that will you will not get due to refusing to answer a simple question. Move on and apply for another job!!!!!

Answering these questions also forms trust and openness so it might help you get the job

*Mike, did the job advert have a salary band on it? If so and your expected salary falls into the band why not answer the question? *


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

...given the risks of the unknown in changing jobs, I would always be shooting for a 30% increase in total package (in my mind) but may settle on 25% _if the opportunity was right_. Why risk the change for less?

I am in sales, and progressing through interviews for a new position, is a sales process. Each step is about getting to the next step. Closure comes with salary negotiations. You don't open with them.

People generally do not give all the information out beforehand - otherwise what will you talk about at interview? By skillfully handling difficult requests/questions, one also demonstrates one's ability and poise under pressure, plus one's tactfullness. All deemed important qualities for most positions.

A potential hiring company may think that they can't afford you, if you proffer up front salary expectations outside their intended range. By getting in front of them and demonstrating that you are the man for the job and they can't afford _not_ to have you on board, they may decide that you are worth the extra. Â£10K, Â£20K, Â£30k - which is small beer to most sizeable companies in the bigger scheme of things.


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## fishface (Nov 25, 2006)

Well as I see it they hold the trump card, they have the vacancy, you want it.
Why P them off by beating around the bush, the reply to you was polite and reasonable, you must have an idea what you are looking why not share it with them?

An old Regional manager of mine would never allow me to publish, or discuss a salary with prospective applicants before an interview. 
In his view the pay structure was confidential and not to be discussed with outsiders out of courtesey to the rest of the team.

But however you reply you will be at the mercy of the opinion of the individual on the receiving end who you may never get to know anyway.


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## jbell (May 15, 2006)

garyc said:


> ...given the risks of the unknown in changing jobs, I would always be shooting for a 30% increase in total package (in my mind) but may settle on 25% _if the opportunity was right_. Why risk the change for less?


Not really realistic, 10-15% is the max on base salary, the benefits are nice additions such as Pension, Car/allowance, Health, Bonus etc. that could add up to a larger overall rise which is an additional bonus to the candidate.



garyc said:


> I am in sales, and progressing through interviews for a new position, is a sales process. Each step is about getting to the next step. Closure comes with salary negotiations. You don't open with them.


Mike is not being asked to negotiate salary, he is simply being asked to state his current and expected salary/package, what is the point on going on with an interview process if there is a potential stumbling block, it wastes time and money!!!!



garyc said:


> People generally do not give all the information out beforehand - otherwise what will you talk about at interview? By skillfully handling difficult requests/questions, one also demonstrates one's ability and poise under pressure, plus one's tactfullness. All deemed important qualities for most positions.


Yes they do, fact. An interview is supposed to be about experience, achievements, future plans, interestes etc, the salary negotiations only come when a formal offer is being made.

An IV is not designed to discuss your DOB, salary etc.



garyc said:


> A potential hiring company may think that they can't afford you, if you proffer up front salary expectations outside their intended range.


But why would you apply for a job where your salary expectations do not meet with the salary range being offered :?: again time wasting :evil:



garyc said:


> By getting in front of them and demonstrating that you are the man for the job and they can't afford _not_ to have you on board, they may decide that you are worth the extra. Â£10K, Â£20K, Â£30k - which is small beer to most sizeable companies in the bigger scheme of things.


Yes I see the point but most large companies have salary bands and structure put in place for a reason i.e not to piss every one off who could be on considerably less.

I deal with this kind of crap all day long and quite frankly if someone will not divulge simple details up front then there is no trust there, why should a Recruiter or Recruitment/HR Manager go through a process when there could be clearly be no way that person could be hired due to company policy.


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## Lock_Stock (May 22, 2007)

Very interesting question this. Is this request for sallary info coming from a hiring leader within a company, or a recruitment consultant?

If it is coming from a consultant I would be less inclined to provide the information. I agree with pretty much everything Jbell has said, but the reality is you are not the consultants primary customer, you are a means to an end. If you stipulate your current sallary you may not get the best deal you can, when it does come to negotiation at the end of the process. You can argue that as most consultants work on a commission, the higher the sallery the better for them too, this is not always the case.

If it is a direct application with the company then why not send a polite straight response.

"Based on my experience and qualifications I'd be expecting a base sallary of x with a total remuneration package equating to xx per anum.

As most companies have a set pay scale for each position this figure may be flexible. If you would like to discuss in more detail please do not hesitate to contact me."

I would set your expecation 10-15% above your current sallary. That way if it gets into a negotiation later on comparing your current sallary you don't have to lie not to sound greedy.


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## mike_bailey (May 7, 2002)

Some interesting discussion on this - thanks everybody.

The job was advertised directly by the employer online but stated no salary or salary range. I'm currently dealing with HR not the decision maker. My feeling is that if they have a salary structure internally then why not include a range in the advert so they don't waste time. It also implies, perhaps, that there is likely to be some flexibility i.e. put out the ad and see what demands we get back. It could also mean that they don't want their current employees to know what this position pays!

I agree that salary should be negotiated at the end once I've proven what I can do for them in terms of the bottom line. However, I would like this job and I'm pondering whether to state this but also provide a fairly wide salary range that begins at the minimum that I'm expecting (take a punt).

I'm not doing this just for the money as I want to take on this challenge but a good salary increase would allow Mrs B to stay at home and look after Baby Bailey rather than the reverse when her maternity leave ends (go figure!).


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## BAMTT (Feb 22, 2004)

Just one point but if they are asking for a salary up front, are they selecting a candidate on salary alone, if that is their criteria the maybe its not a good omen :?


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## Leg (Jan 11, 2006)

Just say you are open to negotiation. Thats all you have to say. I want the job, I'm open to discuss salary with you when the time comes, lets discuss whether its the right job for me and I am right for your organisation first and if we are both keen to progress, then lets talk.

An alternative response is to ask if they are saying that you have the job subject to salary negotiations? Nothing like answering a question with a question. :wink:

I never discuss money with my clients until I know they are desperate to buy, otherwise they are buying something which they dont fully understand the value of yet. In the same vein they rarely tell me their budget for the project until they know I want them to buy and am expecting the business. i.e. when its all mine to lose. Their budget and my proposal are rarely the same and then.....we negotiate based on their desire to invest and my desire to buy an M3.


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## mde-tt (Aug 7, 2007)

garyc said:


> Never discuss salary until end of first meeting (interview) 'they' can afford you, as long as you are able to add more than your costs to their bottom line.
> 
> Dear X,
> 
> ...


As somebody who has some experience in the recruitment and selection field I would suggest that the response is excellent and would be greeted favourably by an employer looking for certain negotiation skills.
It does however depend on the job you're applying for, but for most senior, and certainly management posts, I would expect this reseponse to be totally appropriate.

It is very poor of them to request your salary expectations so early on, I would be concerned about this if it were me as it smacks of sharp recruitment practice.

In reality you should only start to discuss figures at face-to-face (interview) stage.

Good luck!


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## John C (Jul 5, 2002)

@ GaryC - Is this the standard HP reply, sounds like Brett negotiating!

@ jbell - totally disagree with this....



jbell said:


> You should be more interested in the opportunity and where this can lead i.e promotion, this is of more interest to a potential employer and will sell you to them more than "I want 55K".


I think that ambition for promotion is a common misconception to identify the right candidate. Why is someone looking for future opportunity a good thing? Not saying ambition is bad, far from it but it's not necessarily a sign of 'interest' as you say. Hunger should be for the current advertised role and if, and only if, this is then matched with exceptional performance and good talent management should the longer term potential for succession planning or promotion be a motivator for both the employee and employer.

I think too much dis-satisfaction in the working world stems from ambition being promoted as a good thing and then many false hopes being dashed when the next step is beyond the capabilities of the individual.

It's what I like so much about the work ethic in the USA. Everyone seems to have so much more pride in their job. Whether a highly paid promoted position or something lower down the 'food chain'. The pride in doing today's job well and having pride in it would make me employ someone much more than whether I thought they were 'keen to progress'.

Also totally agree with Leg - Sell the product BEFORE the price, always.


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

John C said:


> @* GaryC - Is this the standard HP reply,* sounds like Brett negotiating!
> 
> @ jbell - totally disagree with this....
> 
> ...


No, just common sense really. In my professional capacity i have reviewed hundreds of CVs and interviewed many candidates for sales and marketing poistions, just as I have plenty of job seeking and interview experience in trying to get positions for myself. As you said, my stated approach does work for sales and managemnt positions, where negotiation keys can be key.

I don't work in HR or a job agency - but these are all ultimately just middle men and sceeeners-outers, before you get to the actual hiring managers.

Other things being equal, I would be surprised if anyone took the risk of moving to a new company, with unknown dynamics, culture and business practices, for 10-15% package increase. 25-30% is norm before anyone would be bothered with the whole interview rigmorale and subsequent risk.

I have yet to work in a company where everyone knows everyone elses salaries - data protection and privacy laws actually prohibit this - so 'upsetting other staff by hiring new staff at higher salaries, is never an issue. Most woulld rather pay a little more if necessary to secure and motivate the right candidates.

It about what works for the individual.

Mike,

Another suggestion might be to ask to speak to the hiring manager. That way you'll get an informal telephone interview right away and can decide whether to want to divulge salary expectations etc, or use it as an occasion to close him down, "Let's talk about that when we meet. Do you have your diary with you? I can do next tuesday." etc

Even if you are not in the sales and business game, a prospective employer may well want to see you pushing. the logioc being, if you are n't going to push selling yourself and your skills - your life , when are you going to push?

Good luck. Let us know how it goes.

PS for some reason I thought you were self-employed.


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## jbell (May 15, 2006)

Lock_Stock said:


> If it is coming from a consultant I would be less inclined to provide the information. I agree with pretty much everything Jbell has said, but the reality is you are not the consultants primary customer, you are a means to an end. If you stipulate your current salary you may not get the best deal you can, when it does come to negotiation at the end of the process. You can argue that as most consultants work on a commission, the higher the salary the better for them too, this is not always the case.


Why? The Recruiter wants to get you the best Salary/package possible that way the fee they will charge the client is higher.

By stating your current salary/package the recruiter can determine your suitability, I will never send a cand to a client without ALL current details.



mike_bailey said:


> The job was advertised directly by the employer online but stated no salary or salary range. I'm currently dealing with HR not the decision maker. My feeling is that if they have a salary structure internally then why not include a range in the advert so they don't waste time. It also implies, perhaps, that there is likely to be some flexibility i.e. put out the ad and see what demands we get back. It could also mean that they don't want their current employees to know what this position pays!


This is a classic HR f**k up, by not stating the salary range they are, as usual making things more difficult for themselves.

Mike, ask the question "what do you expect to pay? I am looking for Â£xxx" this way you can gauge if you are in the ball park for the job, or they will pay what is needed to get the right person.


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## mike_bailey (May 7, 2002)

Thanks for your help Gary, after much thought sent this last night...

_Dear X,

Thank you for you email.

It is indeed unusual to be in salary discussions before we have agreed the value that I can add to your business. I'm open to discuss salary with you when the time comes, lets discuss whether I am right for your company and its the right job for me first and if we are both keen to progress, then lets talk.

If you wish to share your budgeted upper and lower salary ranges for the position, then I would be happy to share my salary expectations, which will of course be commensurate with my qualifications, experience and capabilities.

But I would prefer to demonstrate these to you at interview.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Regards_

...and got this back first thing this morning...

_Dear Michael

Thank you for your email. The reason why I am asking is we do of course have budgets and internal salary ranges to consider and I donâ€™t want to waste your time.

The maximum salary for this role would be something in the region of Â£X â€" perhaps Â£Y for the right candidate.

If this is within your expectations then please el tem know

Kind regards

X_

The upper salary (Y) is what I think the job is worth - I'll reply stating that I'm still interested today but probably no need to specify my required base salary any more.

Gary, I was self employed but the business went tits up when I discovered my business partner was financially incompetent and a shit head. Long story...

Thanks for all the help and a great thread!


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## Lock_Stock (May 22, 2007)

This whole thing intrigued me so I spoke with our HR team. I asked them about publishing sallary ranges or on what occasions sallary was not published for a job posting.

They said there are generally 3 occasions when sallary is not published.

1. Someone screwed up.
2. The Department posting want to pay the absolute minimum
3. The job is a high sallary position and a reposting, the original advert attracting far too many unqualified people only interested due to the opportunity to jump a few pay grades.

Since they asked your sallary expectations straight off, I'd say it's number 3......


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## mike_bailey (May 7, 2002)

Lock_Stock said:


> This whole thing intrigued me so I spoke with our HR team. I asked them about publishing sallary ranges or on what occasions sallary was not published for a job posting.
> 
> They said there are generally 3 occasions when sallary is not published.
> 
> ...


Thanks


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

mike_bailey said:


> Thanks for your help Gary, after much thought sent this last night...
> 
> _Dear X,
> 
> ...


Result Mike. That gets you to the next stage and with dialogue already open.

Sorry to hear about your own business situation. Sounds like you are better off out of it, and taking care of your family.

Do remember to prepare answers for all the likely difficult/probing questions that may arise at interview.


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## mighTy Tee (Jul 10, 2002)

All we need now is a posting along the lines:

Hi Micheal,

I read this post with great interest, as I am also a TT enthusiast, and put 2 + 2 together that you are the applicant for the post my company is advertising...... :roll:


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## mde-tt (Aug 7, 2007)

mighTy Tee said:


> All we need now is a posting along the lines:
> 
> Hi Micheal,
> 
> I read this post with great interest, as I am also a TT enthusiast, and put 2 + 2 together that you are the applicant for the post my company is advertising...... :roll:


ha ha ha :lol: :lol:


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## mde-tt (Aug 7, 2007)

Lock_Stock said:


> This whole thing intrigued me so I spoke with our HR team. I asked them about publishing sallary ranges or on what occasions sallary was not published for a job posting.
> 
> They said there are generally 3 occasions when sallary is not published.
> 
> ...


I agree with this.

You did well to send the response you did and I think it will always be of use to have had that strong conversation in the first place.
From a recruitment point of view I would personally look favourably upon it and whilst it won't guarantee you the job; your first impression is a good one IMO.

Plus you go in with your eyes open and can sell yourself at the right level.

Good luck


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## mike_bailey (May 7, 2002)

mde-tt said:


> mighTy Tee said:
> 
> 
> > All we need now is a posting along the lines:
> ...


Employers don't look at the web do they? :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

mike_bailey said:


> mde-tt said:
> 
> 
> > mighTy Tee said:
> ...


Yes, and most are BMW-driving Audi-haters. :lol:


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