# Heavy Subject Leave the EU or not ??



## Trouble4

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=946139178817657



yes or no to leaving.....

is this short video crap ?? or does it have most of it in a nut shell ??


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## Trouble4

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=945633665534875






__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=936903666407875


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## Dash

Stay in. Europe has it's issues sure, but all things weighed up, it's better in than out.

The underlying argument for exit is we're better and stronger alone - this is rarely the case. There's a slim chance we might pull it off, but really, do you think the mess of our economy, banking, and parliament are competent enough?

There is no Empire, our national status is a hang-over from the Empire but rapidly diminishing. I wouldn't fancy relenting vasts amount of control over to Europe (which we're represented in just as much as any other European nation) - but that's not on the cards. Things will essentially stay the same by voting to stay, we'll still have the pound and control over our laws.

Most of the exit arguments seem to be about countering the pros of Europe saying things might not be all that bad and there is a chance it could be better (but that would be a huge gamble that they'd rather you didn't look into). The fundamental argument seems to be "we're better than Europeans" which stinks a bit of paranoid xenophobia.


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## les

The way I see it many people are sitting on the fence it seems so to those I would say "are you happy with what you have been fed since 1973 we have been members of the EU?" Do you trust Cameron? Do you think the EU will change as much as most would like if we vote to stay in, are you happy with the EU dictating laws, are you happy with immigration, trade and the amount of money given to the EU and how it is spent etc etc? If the answer to the majority of your answers to these questions are no then there you know how to vote. IMO the EU is like an iceberg a 1/3rd is above and 2/3rds below what we can expect if we stay in. You can bet the EU are sitting on things they are not telling us about that they will put upon us if we vote to stay in. Maybe your one of the "I'm alright jacks" so you are frightened of leaving and believe you will retain what you have now and it's a case of better the devil you know. Finally do you really want the UK to belong to the United States of Europe?


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## Dash

les said:


> Finally do you really want the UK to belong to the United States of Europe?


What would be so bad about this?

Immigration won't be any better without Europe - there will probably be less useful immigration, workers won't be attracted to the UK as it's harder, the "scroungers" and folk that sneak in and stay that the Daily Mail has everybody so worried about on will continue to come. All we'll see is the cost of labour going up.

If you don't trust Cameron, or don't like what he's doing then do something about that. Europe wasn't his idea. Vote him out, campaign come elections so that other people know that he cannot be trusted. Don't screw over the countries future with an knee-jerk running away from Europe just because you don't like our current government.

Just because a treaty is defined Europe-wide, why does that mean it going into law in the UK is a bad thing? The UK _is/ a big part of the EU, we define the treaties as much as anybody else. Look at the video link I put above, about European Human Rights - supplied by the UK for all countries to implement. Specifically, what acts that have been passed off the back of a European convention do you have a problem with? How does that compare to acts that do not have a source in the EU? Certainly the things that have been bugging me recently in terms of law are certainly not from the EU but the nutters controlling the house of commons unchecked._


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## les

Dash said:


> les said:
> 
> 
> 
> Finally do you really want the UK to belong to the United States of Europe?
Click to expand...

What would be so bad about this?

OMG where do I start to answer that? Think the best way is to put a link to why we should leave.

http://campaignforanindependentbritain. ... e-economy/

BTW re vote Cameron out and leaving the EU, it's a chicken and egg thing and you know which opportunity comes first.

and for a simple explanation here you go.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0pwXLt ... e=youtu.be


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## Trouble4

les said:


> Dash said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> les said:
> 
> 
> 
> Finally do you really want the UK to belong to the United States of Europe?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What would be so bad about this?
> 
> OMG where do I start to answer that? Think the best way is to put a link to why we should leave.
> 
> http://campaignforanindependentbritain. ... e-economy/
> 
> BTW re vote Cameron out and leaving the EU, it's a chicken and egg thing and you know which opportunity comes first.
> 
> and for a simple explanation here you go.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0pwXLt ... e=youtu.be
Click to expand...

The video is very compelling as a citizen of the US I understood when this was voted in 1973 but had no idea that this Union would lead to where it has .........

will not be surprised if the Union tries all kinds of pressuring ......... was reading about how much money the UK gives in support a crazy amount......

I have seen that asking a Farmer in UK .....they want out........

Cameron ??? would you want Trump ??? does that make you feel better about Cameron ?? :lol: :lol:

Big choice going on ..... good luck .......


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## les

Trouble4 said:


> les said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dash said:
> 
> 
> 
> The video is very compelling as a citizen of the US I understood when this was voted in 1973 but had no idea that this Union would lead to where it has .........
> 
> will not be surprised if the Union tries all kinds of pressuring ......... was reading about how much money the UK gives in support a crazy amount......
> 
> I have seen that asking a Farmer in UK .....they want out........
> 
> Cameron ??? would you want Trump ??? does that make you feel better about Cameron ?? :lol: :lol:
> 
> Big choice going on ..... good luck .......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Cameron or Trump hmmm tuff decision bit like death my injection or firing squad :lol:


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## Trouble4

> Cameron or Trump hmmm tuff decision bit like death my injection or firing squad :lol:


agreed US citizens are tired and looks like they are willing to roll the dice with Trump as he says he wants jobs to stay here

less immigration more deportation .... in which see less aid overseas

Hilary you know what your going to get more or less the same Socialism

So in a way some could consider we are in somewhat the same boat which suckssssssss [smiley=book2.gif]

Good luck on your side.......


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## Trouble4

http://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...on-Bruno-Le-Maire-EU-referendum-Brexit-Frexit

now what ??


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## John-H

The United States of Europe? The United States of America never did the USA any harm - they seen to have done quite well. Made me laugh when Boris called Obama a hypocrite for advocating togetherness as a strength to retain.

Dash - you have it on a nutshell - we know what the status quo is so continuation is safe and no great shakes. Exit is a total gamble and likely to trigger reaction and unpredictable change (e.g. Bank of England forecasts and current market reaction even to the possibility).

What's wrong with playing safe for the next few years and later - IF - it becomes unbearable deciding to exit then? Why the rush into the unknown now? Just because of a war in
Syria causing a migrant crisis? What's that to do with the EU?


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## les

John-H said:


> The United States of Europe? The United States of America never did the USA any harm - they seen to have done quite well. Made me laugh when Boris called Obama a hypocrite for advocating togetherness as a strength to retain.
> 
> Dash - you have it on a nutshell - we know what the status quo is so continuation is safe and no great shakes. Exit is a total gamble and likely to trigger reaction and unpredictable change (e.g. Bank of England forecasts and current market reaction even to the possibility).
> 
> What's wrong with playing safe for the next few years and later - IF - it becomes unbearable deciding to exit then? Why the rush into the unknown now? Just because of a war in
> Syria causing a migrant crisis? What's that to do with the EU?


Because the USA was never 50 countries.
Boris called Obama a hypocrite as Obama would never let say Mexico for instance have a say in any US laws in fact Obama does what he can to keep Mexicans out of the USA. I don't see the USA trying to form an American Union with the likes of Argentina, Chile, Mexico, Brasil etc etc. Instead, they have sent a lot of their manufacturing to China just like we have and we are in the EU. 
Many people consider it far from "playing safe" by staying in the EU in fact it's a BIG gamble staying in to many.
The "status quo" is one thing with a corrupt union with many unelected members dictating laws. However, it's just as unclear what the future holds if we stay in and like I say you can bet there are more laws etc unfavorable to the UK as we already have. Cameron does not want the status quo he want changes he won't get.
The EU dictates the immigration policy of all member states and it's not just Syria. There are 7 very poor countries poised to join the EU like Turkey, Kosova, Croatia, Albainia and while we are at it since when was Turkey in Europe? Turkey is in Asia so why stop at Turkey, Israel after them maybe.


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## rustyintegrale

Stay for me.

I don't trust any UK government alone to do anything right.


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## John-H

les said:


> John-H said:
> 
> 
> 
> The United States of Europe? The United States of America never did the USA any harm - they seen to have done quite well. Made me laugh when Boris called Obama a hypocrite for advocating togetherness as a strength to retain.
> 
> Dash - you have it on a nutshell - we know what the status quo is so continuation is safe and no great shakes. Exit is a total gamble and likely to trigger reaction and unpredictable change (e.g. Bank of England forecasts and current market reaction even to the possibility).
> 
> What's wrong with playing safe for the next few years and later - IF - it becomes unbearable deciding to exit then? Why the rush into the unknown now? Just because of a war in
> Syria causing a migrant crisis? What's that to do with the EU?
> 
> 
> 
> Because the USA was never 50 countries.
> Boris called Obama a hypocrite as Obama would never let say Mexico for instance have a say in any US laws in fact Obama does what he can to keep Mexicans out of the USA. I don't see the USA trying to form an American Union with the likes of Argentina, Chile, Mexico, Brasil etc etc. Instead, they have sent a lot of their manufacturing to China just like we have and we are in the EU.
> Many people consider it far from "playing safe" by staying in the EU in fact it's a BIG gamble staying in to many.
> The "status quo" is one thing with a corrupt union with many unelected members dictating laws. However, it's just as unclear what the future holds if we stay in and like I say you can bet there are more laws etc unfavorable to the UK as we already have. Cameron does not want the status quo he want changes he won't get.
> The EU dictates the immigration policy of all member states and it's not just Syria. There are 7 very poor countries poised to join the EU like Turkey, Kosova, Croatia, Albainia and while we are at it since when was Turkey in Europe? Turkey is in Asia so why stop at Turkey, Israel after them maybe.
Click to expand...

Many of the States of America could well have been countries, at least north and south but it has done well United.

There is still the point that if you leave now that's decision made. Oops if it turns out to be a disaster - what can you do then? Too late!

If you stay in you can see how it goes and if it looks dire leave later. Why take the decision to leave now and risk the unknown? There is no risk in staying apart from gradual change that you can pull out of later if needed.

It's illogical to pull out now for no good solid reason.


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## Trouble4

what I am seeing or am being let to see the EU is having many problems and the UK is in a lot of ways bailing all of the EU out

it seems the better one does the more penalized you get.........

Each US State is like a Country as in Economy Take CA it is closing in on top Countries by itself https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_California#/media/File:USA-World_Nominal_GDP.PNG










immigration is a big subject in US as it seems to be in UK US allows so many immigrants a year but US is picking the best of what other Countries have.. instead of those people staying to help their Countries the immigrants are bailing for a better life
only way a Country can grow is by their own people staying and helping in a 2 steps forward one back approach. People do not want to do that anymore it seems.........

on a US note tired of seeing US (example) give Turkey 20 Billion Dollars to have a air field in their Country and kids in the State of NC dying because of starvation what the hell is up with that.......

US can not solve their own problems so why are we trying to tell others what to do as that in itself is wrong .........

as far as UK and EU some one please tell me exactly what has UK has/is gotten/getting out of this agreement ??
have seen the negative ...... [smiley=book2.gif]


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## 3TT3

I'm Irish  (the southern part)
The way things are set up here,pesky constitution,very annoying for our politicians ( in their role as shepherds.. see jaques chirac and "black sheep"), we get a lot of votes on various EU(as its now called) treaties.
More anon.

I think the UK people had one vote..way back when on whether or not to join the EEC and that was it .Labour promised some referendum but that never materialised (too risky).At least some countries got a vote on an EU constitution.
I wouldnt be too complacent about the pound sterling either . Vote to stay in and itll be interpreted as "we love you europe" , looks like the peeps want to be part of the euro too.I believe the pound can be dumped in favour of the euro any time the politicians feel like it in UK.

The Irish parliament,altho different to the UK, is becoming increasingly rubber stamp what ever Europe tells em to do ( I think).
We are essentially a v small cog in the machine.The UK is however a major economy its BIGTIME still empire or not! 
You guys never got a vote on whether you wanted to join a "union" or not ,we did ..a couple of times 

Early treaties we had to vote on it was "vote yes or you (we) wont get the EU structural funds dosh.We had the rep of being the top begging bowl country in Europe.I know having talked to other ordinary people in Europe.
Our politicians prided them selves on being the "cutest hoors" in getting the max cash that was going.. cos we had to vote a lot 
The pot has dried up for us now..roads that were 80% financed with EU money ..um now we gotta charge the taxpayers for the the upkeep of them 
The magic open market on cars specifically the tt.. never showed . We thought weed be able to get cars as cheap as UK or even the netherlands..not a prayer .. special derogations Irish motorist still takes it up the nether regions with initial purchase tax and hee hee 2000 euro or say 1600 sterling for a mk 1 3.2 annual rod tax.

We could have stopped the "european union" in its tracks .In fact we did ,, for example the lisbion referendum we rejected it..and of course the drivel "we must respect the wishes of the people" cue the headless chickens our senior politicians running around all over europe, caps in hand mea culpa etc etc " forgive us " .
I never felt so ashamed for the country and of course those of us with any nous knew a rerun was coming.

Ill summarise it like this
1."The message wasnt explained properly to the people" er the sheep are revolting
"Goddamn it man cant you control your sheep,you negotiate a treaty and dont deliver !"
2. Irish politicians "you gotta give us something"
"Ok heres what weel do , heres a list of BS promises like no Irish in the european army,no forced abortion, no forced raising of corporation tax and 4 or 5 other things(I forget the other items) that you can tell your sheep will be included in the next treaty :lol: "
Irish politicians "yes sor , thank you very much sor" 
The lads return home with paper in hand(kinda like chamberlain from munich) There shall be EU in our time 

Then we had "everything explained properly" for the thickos 
I think the polish pope was still knocking around then.. he chimed in with something like "a shitload of polish people have already booked their tickets to travel to Ireland itd be naughty not to ratify " or words to that effect.
The "ungratefull" card was also played.. Sure theres no more EU dosh otw, but we did get some.. sheesh
Still we got a load of iou's signed by whatever heads of state were current.. theyll all be in the next treaty.

The sheep voted the right way in the rerun 

Has there been another treaty and referendum on same here in the meantime ?
Yes there has (fiscal treaty) country was in sheet, lookin for money from anywhere 
Were all the "munich/lisbon " iou promises included..not 1 :lol:
Where are these "promises" now.. probably in some vault(think the end scene of Indiana Jones and the raiders of the lost ark)

Right up to date : because of the vagaries of the remnants of the empire and such,Southern Irish people resident in the UK can vote on any UK stuff .
I could get a british passport if I really wanted cos my parents were born before 1948 (technically southern Ireland didnt leave the empire until 1948)
Southern Irish folk, resident in the Uk maybe 6 million + with an Irish grandparent, more if you include extended family are advised to vote for the UK to stay in the EU. British people/UK citizens maybe up to 500k ( who cant vote on the local dog catcher elections here) are also advised to vote (postal) to stay in the EU and "phone a friend "..like what under penalty of deportation?

This is of course under the Irish master plan of "what do we do in the event of a brexit". The master plan doesnt exist btw 

What do I think would happen if the vote went "stay"
1.You will be locked in to the "union", there will never be a chance to get out again.
2. Camerons "fudge deal" will be a miniscule blip on the radar and get steamrollered
3. EU/ further integration will march on and there will be no going back.The pound will go bye byes 
Itll be a case of ts .btw US members of the USA all wanted to join,they were territories prior to that .European states some like the UK voted to join the EEC, EEC isnt the same as a european union.

If the vote goes leave by a small amount(from experience)
There will be the "sayers of doom" a whole lot of political breastbeating and rerun.
"the voters are dumb"

If its like 60/40 to leave (mho) well then youre laughing., sure itll be omg.. what do we do.. but shit all will happen eec economic/trade treaties will be renegotiated and the country can regain control of its own destiny.

Thats mho
and I have no intention of doing some kind of 5th column irishman infiltration , thru friends and family..ie shaft UK to save Ireland(you know it makes sense rodney).

Yes Im a eurosceptic/eurorealist but I find the idea of influencing the vote reprehensible at minimum, if the "situations were reversed", 
If southern Ireland was 50-60 million population ,the vote was close and had 5 million UK voters ready to vote and all the uk friends and family were officially advised to vote for UK national/financial interest instead or Irish interest .
I think that would be "very bad".


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## John-H

Trouble4 said:


> what I am seeing or am being let to see the EU is having many problems and the UK is in a lot of ways bailing all of the EU out
> 
> it seems the better one does the more penalized you get.........
> 
> Each US State is like a Country as in Economy Take CA it is closing in on top Countries by itself https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_California#/media/File:USA-World_Nominal_GDP.PNG
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> immigration is a big subject in US as it seems to be in UK US allows so many immigrants a year but US is picking the best of what other Countries have.. instead of those people staying to help their Countries the immigrants are bailing for a better life
> only way a Country can grow is by their own people staying and helping in a 2 steps forward one back approach. People do not want to do that anymore it seems.........
> 
> on a US note tired of seeing US (example) give Turkey 20 Billion Dollars to have a air field in their Country and kids in the State of NC dying because of starvation what the hell is up with that.......
> 
> US can not solve their own problems so why are we trying to tell others what to do as that in itself is wrong .........
> 
> as far as UK and EU some one please tell me exactly what has UK has/is gotten/getting out of this agreement ??
> have seen the negative ...... [smiley=book2.gif]


Well there's being part of a big EU trade deal with the USA for example. If we exited the EU we'd join the back of the line and have to start over trying to negotiate our own.

There are lots of benefits from the EU from weight of size when negotiating trade deals, consumer rights, workers rights to environmental benefits, harmonisation of standards, removing mobile phone roaming charges, security cooperation free movement of labor, funding for needy causes etc.....

At the moment London banking and trade centres bring in huge revenues because it's seen as the trade centre of Europe. Leave the EU and that would likely change to Frankfurt and London would start to disappear into history. It's reconed that we get an order of magnitude more back from the EU than it costs us to contribute to it.

If we left we'd re-open the Scottish split too so we'd get even smaller.


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## 3TT3

Thats all a bit nebulous (mho)
1. you got the pound sterling tg. :lol: I sound like John Bull.
You guys have even had to fight to prevent an EU financial services tax.. to prevent EU sucking financial transactions away from London.
Funnily thats in Dublin/Ireland interest too cos were the only english speaking euro member :lol: ,but were too kow tow to moan about it.
The rest is all EEC as opposed to European/centralised power union imo.
Nothing wrong with trading as a block as was the original EEC intent 
United states of europe..what does that give?
Scotland.. nah go now while theyre still in and voted for it.. they wont be going anywhere 
sfunny when the scottish referendum was going on I was having a chat with a few friends... drive from Dublin(rep Ireland) to Belfast(UK) then to Scotland12 miles away on ferry(some new country) then down to UK again didnt seem likely ..and NI is never gonna leave UK in my lifetime .


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## les

John-H said:


> les said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> John-H said:
> 
> 
> 
> The United States of Europe? The United States of America never did the USA any harm - they seen to have done quite well. Made me laugh when Boris called Obama a hypocrite for advocating togetherness as a strength to retain.
> 
> Dash - you have it on a nutshell - we know what the status quo is so continuation is safe and no great shakes. Exit is a total gamble and likely to trigger reaction and unpredictable change (e.g. Bank of England forecasts and current market reaction even to the possibility).
> 
> What's wrong with playing safe for the next few years and later - IF - it becomes unbearable deciding to exit then? Why the rush into the unknown now? Just because of a war in
> Syria causing a migrant crisis? What's that to do with the EU?
> 
> 
> 
> Because the USA was never 50 countries.
> Boris called Obama a hypocrite as Obama would never let say Mexico for instance have a say in any US laws in fact Obama does what he can to keep Mexicans out of the USA. I don't see the USA trying to form an American Union with the likes of Argentina, Chile, Mexico, Brasil etc etc. Instead, they have sent a lot of their manufacturing to China just like we have and we are in the EU.
> Many people consider it far from "playing safe" by staying in the EU in fact it's a BIG gamble staying in to many.
> The "status quo" is one thing with a corrupt union with many unelected members dictating laws. However, it's just as unclear what the future holds if we stay in and like I say you can bet there are more laws etc unfavorable to the UK as we already have. Cameron does not want the status quo he want changes he won't get.
> The EU dictates the immigration policy of all member states and it's not just Syria. There are 7 very poor countries poised to join the EU like Turkey, Kosova, Croatia, Albainia and while we are at it since when was Turkey in Europe? Turkey is in Asia so why stop at Turkey, Israel after them maybe.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Many of the States of America could well have been countries, at least north and south but it has done well United.
> 
> There is still the point that if you leave now that's decision made. Oops if it turns out to be a disaster - what can you do then? Too late!
> 
> If you stay in you can see how it goes and if it looks dire leave later. Why take the decision to leave now and risk the unknown? There is no risk in staying apart from gradual change that you can pull out of later if needed.
> 
> It's illogical to pull out now for no good solid reason.
Click to expand...

Could have been harr yes what could or might of been 
and if we stay in what makes you think we will be given the vote to leave again? Will the United States of Europe allow us to leave? 
the decision we are being offered is now nothing about the future. 
Yes, it is logical based on what is the facts gained since we entered the EU in 1973 with a corput unelected EU government. If you don't like what the EU has imposed on us then you have a choice now. Will we get the chance in the future?Don't count on it.


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## John-H

Why should we want to leave in future?

Well if some tangible reason comes along and gets enough people motivated and even becomes an election issue then we will can vote in a government promising to take us out or we can even have a referendum again. That would be up to us. If that doesn't happen then there must have been no call for it

Why should we want to leave now?

It seems to me this is largely a Tory party issue that the prime minister has acceded to and foolishly gambled the future of the country on in order to shut up his UKIP leaning rebels. It wasn't a call from the country as a whole.

What do the public understand of the issues anyway? The information is disputed and arguments made seem to be emotional rather than rational with reliable facts hard to come by and those that do surface are a fraction of the picture.

Is that a basis for sound decision making on a change of direction? Not really unless you are an optimistic gambler.


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## les

John-H said:


> Why should we want to leave in future?


for all the reasons already given and more.



John-H said:


> Why should we want to leave now?


for all the reasons already given and more.



John-H said:


> It seems to me this is largely a Tory party issue that the prime minister has acceded to and foolishly gambled the future of the country on in order to shut up his UKIP leaning rebels. It wasn't a call from the country as a whole.[quite]
> It's always been an issue from the moment we weren't given the right to decide if you wanted the EU to impose upon us
> 
> 
> 
> John-H said:
> 
> 
> 
> What do the public understand of the issues anyway? The information is disputed and arguments made seem to be emotional rather than rational with reliable facts hard to come by and those that do surface are a fraction of the picture.
Click to expand...

There are no shortage of hard facts available if you want them as in what the EU currently impose on us from the EU fisheries policy to immigration which many people do not agree with ...there are many many more of course but facts are there undisputable facts. There are of course debatable scenarios for both staying in or leaving. I will vote on the EUs record to date and use that as a guide to the future if we remain. Forget the spin the maybes and possibles, we can learn from the modern history of the EU.


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## Will225

Out every time. Some things are bigger than fact, it's a sense of national pride and independence. Plus we are more than capable of thriving out of Europe.


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## Dash

Will225 said:


> Out every time. Some things are bigger than fact, it's a sense of national pride and independence. Plus we are more than capable of thriving out of Europe.


Notions of grandeur at best. Every major independent economic body that has published studies on the result of an exit say the same thing. It would be bad economically for the UK.

There are no studies, theories or facts that show we would ever be better off on our tod. The only reason people have for leaving is thinly glazed xenophobic tendencies.

I'm also amazed at how many people are suddenly so concerned with fisheries policy and farmering subsidies, yet are quite happy to buy cheaper foreign meat in the super markets.

I love the pomp of the UK as much as the next Englishman. We've accomplished great things throughout history and held the largest trade and military empire the world has ever seen. But don't let that cloud what is sensible. The UK has a massive influence on the rest of the EU. If we leave, that'll evaporate and leave us out in the cold, with next to no raw resources left and no attractive reason for financial services to continue in London.

All we'll have is distant memories of an Empire that stood over a hundred years ago. Those days are never coming back, don't fool yourselves into thinking our tiny little island and small population will have any influence when we sever political ties with our neighbours.


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## John-H

I thought Paddy Ashdown's contribution on R4 question time was very good. He made the same point that every (all the many) national and international and independent financial institutions recommended staying and warned of the dangers of leaving. Are they all - all of them wrong?


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## Jsws3

Get our ass out


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## les

All independent financed and supported by [smiley=gossip.gif] God knows how the wealthy non EU countries in Europe manage to survive.

Get real.

http://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/ ... -of-the-eu


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## bobclive22

Dash said, (Stay in. Europe has it's issues sure, but all things weighed up, it's better in than out).

Who pray controls the EU purse strings, millions died to preserve your democracy, vote em out if you don`t like em, you won`t do that if you vote YES.

Watch this video before you vote, a yes vote will enslave you to the EU bureaucrats. The UK government have already managed to remove this video from youtube.


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## Trouble4

bobclive22 said:


> Dash said, (Stay in. Europe has it's issues sure, but all things weighed up, it's better in than out).
> 
> Who pray controls the EU purse strings, millions died to preserve your democracy, vote em out if you don`t like em, you won`t do that if you vote YES.
> 
> Watch this video before you vote, a yes vote will enslave you to the EU bureaucrats. The UK government have already managed to remove this video from youtube.


how do you see through the lies........ If any of this is true... it is pretty scary stuff ....... is the EU the influence in Sharia law in UK or immigration ??


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## les

Brexit will help us create jobs, say 300 top business chiefs: Leaders say Brussels red tape 'stifles every one of the UK's 5.4million companies'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z48oG2Y6jc


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## bobclive22

This is really worth a listen, superb speech.






Should we trust this womans opinion.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/lagarde ... -1.3369634

And there is this, very scary.






And this,


----------



## cheechy

Stay in for me. Huge gamble for the future of the country based on delusions of great empire.

Not only will we lose influence, jobs and GDP it will also (this time) lead to the break up of the UK when Scotland call another referendum in a vain hope of rejoining the EU as an independent country.

For me trying to go it alone and throw away current trade agreements is madness - and if we vote to leave people will realise this too late and there is no turning back from a leave vote.


----------



## Dash

I'm going to be fairly narked off if we leave. 25 years of economic woes during the prime if my life because of some misplaced thinly veiled xenophobia is not going to be welcome.

My concern is the daily nail readers have been wipped up into such a frenzy they'll be out in force and the level headed who don't want change won't be bothered.

Either way people vote, it should be a legal requirement to vote, even if you just spoil your ballot.


----------



## John-H

les said:


> All independent financed and supported by [smiley=gossip.gif] God knows how the wealthy non EU countries in Europe manage to survive.
> 
> Get real.
> 
> http://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/ ... -of-the-eu


Get real? The reality is that all the independent financial institutions say we'd be better off staying. Not one says we should leave. If, as you say, other countries get on fine outside the EU and we could reproduce that, then you should be able to find some to agree with you but you can't.

Claiming the reason that the financial institutions want us to stay is some underhand self interest they don't want us to know about is the stuff of conspiracy theories. It ignores the most obvious evidence of their given statements and instead implies the opposite from scant, ambiguous and circumstantial connections and holds them up to be more important - Not unlike the people who claim the moon landings were faked ignoring the most obvious evidence that all authorities agree it happened (including Russia!) and instead find the odd photograph with a funny shadow and wink and nod that they know best. Pullleeaaassee ... :roll:



bobclive22 said:


> Dash said, (Stay in. Europe has it's issues sure, but all things weighed up, it's better in than out).
> 
> Who pray controls the EU purse strings, millions died to preserve your democracy, vote em out if you don`t like em, you won`t do that if you vote YES.
> 
> Watch this video before you vote, a yes vote will enslave you to the EU bureaucrats. The UK government have already managed to remove this video from youtube.


Watched it - it's slick but rubbish. it's not a balanced investigation it's propaganda. It starts by claiming the EU is undemocratic, so to back this up they go around showing photographs of EU officials to people in Brussels and asking if anyone recognises them. They then say you can't vote for them so it's undemocratic.

Are they having a laugh? Sadly not. This is presented as a serious point but this would be equivalent to going round the streets of London and showing photographs of civil servants and the judiciary to members of the public and making the same point when nobody recognises them - it's nonsense.

All propaganda like this does is show up and exploit a fundamental lack of understanding of what the EU is and how it works. You'd be far better off reading the Wikipedia entry here:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union

From that you'd realise that the EU is governed by treaty (remember Lisbon, Maastricht subsidiarity etc?) - basically democratically elected national governments agreed a set of rules and regulations in order to cooperate and work together as a community in union for the greater good. The bureaucrats are the necessary civil service to enact the treaties. It's very roots are freely elected democratic governments and in addition it has it's own parliament of MEPs which we can elect. The claim of a lack of democracy is nonsense.

It's not losing sovereignty it's pooling it and achieving advantage and stability as a result. It's a civilising influence that engenders peace and cooperation. Compare that with the alternative prospect of disparate rivalry between nations.

Don't be hoodwinked by the likes of Boris Johnson and his unprofessional comments about the EU. Is he turning into Donald Trump? He should stick to comments about Wif-Waf and making appearances on Have I got News for You so we can laugh and not take him seriously.

If we vote leave it would cause instability both here and in the EU and almost certainly Lead to the break up of the United Kingdom with Scotland leaving. How small a place will our mindset then have taken us to?


----------



## les




----------



## John-H

Well there you go :roll:

I still come down to my basic point - if we vote leave now it will have immediate and long lasting repercussions of a permanent nature which could be dire. Voting stay will only change things slowly over time and if things become dire in time then you can always vote in another reforendum or exit at a later date.

As Paddy Ashdown said Brexit isn't just for Christmas. So beware the consequences.


----------



## bobclive22

(if we vote leave now it will have immediate and long lasting repercussions of a permanent nature which *could* be dire.)

You mean, if we vote *STAY* now it will have immediate and long lasting repercussions of a permanent nature which *WILL* be dire.

You can`t vote the sods out, *could* be dire, *WILL *be bloody wonderful, free trade with every nation on the planet, and controled borders, how good can it get.

I bet *IN *campaign don`t show their heads on tonight's news.


----------



## les

here is my prediction.
The electorate esp the I'm all right jacks) will vote to stay and stay we will.
Then over the coming years as things get worse those who voted to stay in (yeah just like many of the Scottish people who voted to stay part of the UK) will wish they voted out. The all governing EU have stated we won't get a second vote in the future, I think that tells you a lot of the road the EU us leading us all down. A non elected government telling us the UK people what we can't and can have in the future, now that is scary.


----------



## John-H

bobclive22 said:


> (if we vote leave now it will have immediate and long lasting repercussions of a permanent nature which *could* be dire.)
> 
> You mean, if we vote *STAY* now it will have immediate and long lasting repercussions of a permanent nature which *WILL* be dire.
> 
> You can`t vote the sods out, *could* be dire, *WILL *be bloody wonderful, free trade with every nation on the planet, and controled borders, how good can it get.
> 
> I bet *IN *campaign don`t show their heads on tonight's news.


No I don't.



les said:


> here is my prediction.
> The electorate esp the I'm all right jacks) will vote to stay and stay we will.
> Then over the coming years as things get worse those who voted to stay in (yeah just like many of the Scottish people who voted to stay part of the UK) will wish they voted out. The all governing EU have stated we won't get a second vote in the future, I think that tells you a lot of the road the EU us leading us all down. A non elected government telling us the UK people what we can't and can have in the future, now that is scary.


"Non elected government"? There you go again :lol: It's a treaty agreement between democratically elected states to which we had an input with all the others. The UK has an opt out to closer union and we could have another referendum if we wanted or opt out if we wanted. There is no need to panic and vote leave now - especially when it would likely cause unnecessary turmoil and we wouldn't be allowed back in on the same favourable terms if we changed our minds - if at all.


----------



## Dash

Change is going to mean change. I'm not sure how the exit bunch can suggest that staying is going to result in more change than leaving.


----------



## Spaceman10

Hi guys

For me is out out out.
Read up about titp, look how other country's are doing with unemployment, Greece need more money, etc etc etc 
And you think it's all good.
One thing people forget we are a island race, we are not like other country's.
As a English man I want us to govern our self.
All the eu wants to do is take over all nations and make one big super state.
I feel sorry for people who think it's right for a bunch of people who was not voted in to tell us what to do.

I think and hope we come out so we can take control of this great island once again

Phil


----------



## leopard

les said:


> here is my prediction.
> The electorate esp the I'm all right jacks) will vote to stay and stay we will.
> Then over the coming years as things get worse those who voted to stay in (yeah just like many of the Scottish people who voted to stay part of the UK) will wish they voted out. The all governing EU have stated we won't get a second vote in the future, I think that tells you a lot of the road the EU us leading us all down. A non elected government telling us the UK people what we can't and can have in the future, now that is scary.


Agreed,

This is about the thick of it








:lol:


----------



## Spaceman10

+1


----------



## John-H

Well it looks like the best researched and considered arguments have been presented from both sides now .


----------



## Spaceman10

It just the tip of the iceberg if we stay in the eu.
My grandparents would be turning in there graves if they could see what is happening to see great island.
They did not fight for this in two world wars.
Let just hand everything over to a bunch of unelected, I do t think so


----------



## Dash

They didn't fight in two world wars for the sake of Europe? Who were they fighting for then? We intervened in Europe, whilst there was bombing over the UK in WW2 there was never any invasion of the UK.


----------



## John-H

The unelected? Is that the EU our UK civil service?


----------



## Spaceman10

Who don't have any powers to do or change any thing.


----------



## Spaceman10

In the time of the 2nd world war there was no such thing has the eu, each country stood on its own.
It was to stop the far right in Germany from taking over the world.
are farther and grand farther stood fast and did not run, shame that some parts of the world did the same in their own country 
I wonder why that woman in Germany seams to tell every body what to do, it make you think when you look back in history


----------



## leopard

This is teetering on the edge of Godwin :lol:


----------



## Spaceman10

Lol lol lol lol


----------



## John-H

I think Boris already did that - also showed himself to be living in the past :roll:


----------



## Spaceman10

Well he did not tell us if we go out they will be world war 3, like the PM who gave us the referendum.
If it's that bad why call it.
We all know if the uK comes out the rest off the eu will fall apart.


----------



## Spaceman10

Also what wrong with the past, we can learn a lot from the past.
Boris will be the next PM when Cameron get kicked out 
Watch this space


----------



## Trouble4

learning from the past is suppose to help you in the future.......

the problem with humanity is EGO / PRIDE ....... understand you need those traits

to be the best at your field of work / trade ect...........

but what you do need is humility / compassion to taper it a bit

do you believe a worker gets things done faster if they believe it is their or even a group of people ideas ???

or when it is shoved down their throat and question it in their mind........ ??????

is that manipulation or just good business sense ????

what has happened to common sense ????

does EU dictate immigration ??? if so why it is not their Country...... that alone if true is grounds to leave......


----------



## bobclive22

John H said, Watched it - it's slick but rubbish. it's not a balanced investigation it's propaganda.

I suppose ITV have been giving a balanced view recently.

(1) If we had not been an independent and powerful island nation in the first and second world wars we would now be part of the German empire, the most powerful and financially prosperous nation in the EU is Germany, the Bundesbank bankrolls the EU, German empire by the backdoor.

(2) We cannot have measured and controlled immigration if we remain in the EU, some state our hospitals rely on immigrants from the EU, that is not the case, we source skilled heath workers from throughout the world, the word is SKILLED, all skilled workers are welcome if there is a need for them, we don`t need unskilled workers taking our low paid jobs and driving down wages, *Sports Directs* main warehouses near to where I live employ mostly eastern European labour, 95% of those workers are on a *ZERO* rate contract, no union.

The health service is overwhelmed, our schools are overwhelmed, there is a massive shortage of housing.
Immigration is absolutely necessary but only in controlled numbers and only for the skills we need.

Some say there are a million plus Brits living and working in EU counties, there are, most are retired and bought property, the rest are mainly skilled.

(If we are outside we wont have any influence), we have got sod all influence at present as Cameron recently found out, so in or out it won`t matter.

John H, Understand, YOU CANNOT VOTE THEM OUT, (DON`T HAVE BLIND FAITH IN YOUR LEADERS) they are only in it for the money.

We are the fifth richest nation on the planet, ask yourself why all the European big guns want us to stay.

These immigrants won`t make their homes in the leafy suburbs, or in the wealthy SOUTH EAST.

John H (The unelected? Is that the EU our UK civil service? )

Our civil service is accountable to parliament, who are the EU bureaucrats accountable to, give a name.


----------



## bobclive22

Dash said ( in WW2 there was never any invasion of the UK. ), read some history to find out why, clue, you can swim in it.


----------



## bobclive22

John H said,

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union

From that you'd realise that the EU is governed by treaty (remember Lisbon, Maastricht subsidiarity etc?) - basically democratically elected national governments agreed a set of rules and regulations in order to cooperate and work together as a community in union for the greater good. The bureaucrats are the necessary civil service to enact the treaties. It's very roots are freely elected democratic governments and in addition it has it's own parliament of MEPs which we can elect. The claim of a lack of democracy is nonsense.

wikipedia, you can`t be serious, your actually basing the most important decision of your life on a piece out of that comic. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> wikipedia, you can`t be serious, your actually basing the most important decision of your life on a piece out of that comic. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Whereas deciding something can't be true purely because it's in Wikipedia is really smart?


----------



## bobclive22

Vested interests, any Tom, Dick or their dogs can alter Wikipedia to suit there own interests, even school children are told not to rely on that comic for any serious information especially when it is controversial.


----------



## Spaceman10

It funny when you are told by some people that we need to stay in the EU and when you ask why they say we need it.
I ask why do we need them we as a county can make all our own plans and rules isn't that why we vote every four year and if we don't like it we kick them out.
They look at me and say well yes, then I ask if you don't like what the eu is doing can you vote them out.
No I don't think so.
I smile and say you don't no.
I said please think long and hard when you vote and what your vote ing for you may not like the out come if we stay in

Another thing I am sick of people tell me we have 2-3 million british people in Europe the same as how many eu people are in the uk. 
Again this is wrong the British people are spread over a lots of county's not just in one country like the uk. 
Numbers people numbers we are a island let's start thinking about our own people first please.


----------



## bobclive22

Agree Spaceman10,

The majority of those Brits are either highly skilled or have used their own cash to start businesses or purchased property and retired, very few unskilled Brits in EU as they don`t get handouts over there.


----------



## rustyintegrale

Spaceman10 said:


> Boris will be the next PM when Cameron get kicked out
> Watch this space


God help us. The man is an embarrassment. Mind you, he and Trump would get on well...


----------



## Spaceman10

I find it funny that every body nock trump but over half of the USA want him and look at what they have had in the past 
And you think they were better lol 
Also who else would you pick Corbyn lol the labour part lost it way after Blair mess


----------



## rustyintegrale

Spaceman10 said:


> I find it funny that every body nock trump but over half of the USA want him and look at what they have had in the past
> And you think they were better lol
> Also who else would you pick Corbyn lol the labour part lost it way after Blair mess


You hit the nail on the head there mate and it's precisely why I want to stay in Europe. I don't like nor trust any UK party. UK politicians are all primarily interested in careers, possibly with the exception of Corbyn who has never had, nor is ever likely, to have one.


----------



## Spandex

Over half the US don't want Trump. Over half the _republican voters_ might want him, but statistically it's the least educated half.


----------



## rustyintegrale

Spandex said:


> Over half the US don't want Trump. Over half the _republican voters_ might want him, but statistically it's the least educated half.


I was going to say that but thought I'd get slated. 32 million Americans can't even read...


----------



## Spandex

Talking of demographics, it's interesting that the majority of younger people support the Remain campaign, whilst it's generally older people who want to leave.

So, given that the young people are the ones who will actually have to live with this, will it be fair if they get handed a world they didn't want? Or is this a case of the older people deciding what's good for them?


----------



## Spaceman10

So you want to stay in the eu with people you did not vote in or Can not kick out 
Then you say the uk parts are the same.
Well don't you think it's up to the British people to run this great county not a bunch of people which are not British or from the uk to make the laws and rules


----------



## Spandex

rustyintegrale said:


> Spandex said:
> 
> 
> 
> Over half the US don't want Trump. Over half the _republican voters_ might want him, but statistically it's the least educated half.
> 
> 
> 
> I was going to say that but thought I'd get slated. 32 million Americans can't even read...
Click to expand...

Well, given that I don't really care about getting slated on here, I might as well mention that the polling demographics aren't too flattering about the education levels of the average Leave supporter either.. [smiley=gossip.gif]


----------



## Spaceman10

trump is still winning and you think the USA would be better under the Clintons.
Have you seen what she has done and don't get me started on bill lol


----------



## Spaceman10

And you think the people who want to stay in are any better lol


----------



## Shug750S

Must admit, I'm fed up with both sides in this debate just throwing scare stories around.

End of the day no one knows what will happen if we stay in or if we vote out.

My heart says out, but my head says in, as I guess if we go out we'll get screwed royally, pension funds will dive, import tariffs will be introduced etc.

Of course the other reason the Europeans are so keen for us to stay is if we go the burden on Germany and the few other countries paying big time will increase dramatically. Whe we joined it was a trading relationship with (I think) 8 or 9 similarish countires, there are now many more in, with different backgrounds and cultures, and it's turned into a benefits playground where we're the losers.

Problem (to me at least) and I know people in Sweden who are in the same mindset, is that most of the British emigrants to the EU are skilled and earning a decent wage, or retired and living off their pensions. Sweden has a similar (sorry better)social welfare systems that us, but they pay higher taxes. That's one of the key issues (imo) I, and many other British nationals have paid in all my life to the state, and will probably end up getting hardly any thing back, but many of the the new immigrants here get social payments of one sort or another and have never paid in.

Seems this is one of the imbalances of the common policy, many who come here take out, but they pay a lower rate back home and if we went there we'd get nothing, hence to desire for many to come here.


----------



## rustyintegrale

Spaceman10 said:


> So you want to stay in the eu with people you did not vote in or Can not kick out
> Then you say the uk parts are the same.
> Well don't you think it's up to the British people to run this great county not a bunch of people which are not British or from the uk to make the laws and rules


Yes it is up to the great British people. But it would help if the great British people could tell the difference between truths and speculation. That requires our great British politicians to share honest facts backed with evidence as opposed to spouting bollocks designed to scare the less well educated and ill-informed great British people.


----------



## Spandex

Spaceman10 said:


> And you think the people who want to stay in are any better lol


Do I think? I'm not talking about my opinion, I'm talking about the demographics taken from polling data.

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/03/24/eu ... ondon-and/

If you have some data of your own that conflicts please link to it here.


----------



## Spaceman10

Well hopefully people will open there eyes and see what's going on.
If the rest of the world can live and trade and are not in the EU why don't you think we can't.
We are a island not even part of the eu 
Again they are worried that we will stop the money and the rest of Europe will fall apart, it's a basket case and will only get worse.


----------



## Spandex

Spaceman10 said:


> trump is still winning and you think the USA would be better under the Clintons.
> Have you seen what she has done and don't get me started on bill lol


No, Trump isn't 'still winning'. He's leading the race for a Republican candidate, but polling data shows that Clinton is ahead of him overall.


----------



## Spaceman10

You think polls are any good just like the last lot of polls for the elections ?


----------



## Spandex

Spaceman10 said:


> Well hopefully people will open there eyes and see what's going on.
> If the rest of the world can live and trade and are not in the EU why don't you think we can't.
> We are a island not even part of the eu
> Again they are worried that we will stop the money and the rest of Europe will fall apart, it's a basket case and will only get worse.


I have absolutely no doubt that we could survive outside the EU, but that's not exactly a great reason to leave, is it? Surely we want to do what is financially and politically best for us, not just 'survive'.

Surely the EU falling apart would be a very bad thing for us, whether we leave or not?


----------



## Spandex

Spaceman10 said:


> You think polls are any good just like the last lot of polls for the elections ?


I think you said he was winning - unless you have some other source of information to back that up other than polls, then they're all we have. And if you accept the polls, he's not winning. Simples.


----------



## Spaceman10

So you think it's ok to be told what to do by people you did not vote for.
All so we can trade with the rest of the world and don't forget titip is on the way if we stay in.


----------



## Spaceman10

Well if you look it's all down to trump and Clinton, 
I don't think the USA want another Clinton in the White House again.
Unless there is anybody else running I don't know about


----------



## Spandex

Spaceman10 said:


> So you think it's ok to be told what to do by people you did not vote for.
> All so we can trade with the rest of the world and don't forget titip is on the way if we stay in.


Not sure where to start with this. Firstly, go and read JohnH's posts about the treaty. Secondly, bear in mind that over 85% of EU votes have gone in our favour (well, in our governments favour, which may or may not be the same thing). But most importantly, I'm *constantly* told what to do by people I didn't vote for - that's the nature of democracy, isn't it?



Spaceman10 said:


> Well if you look it's all down to trump and Clinton,
> I don't think the USA want another Clinton in the White House again.
> Unless there is anybody else running I don't know about


As I said, the polling data indicates that the USA *does* want another Clinton in the White House. I have a feeling it won't actually be as close as the data suggests in the end, because even the remote possibility of a moron like Trump winning will galvanise the fence-sitters into action.


----------



## leopard

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05 ... om-turkey/


----------



## Spaceman10

So you think they want some body who made a mess of it 
Also wait till the Clinton emails come out be for November 
She is worried about them look it up 
The US people want change not the same old thing 
Again trump is winning some people just don't like to see people like him winning


----------



## Spaceman10

Leopard say it all really 
We need out before it's too late


----------



## Spandex

Spaceman10 said:


> So you think they want some body who made a mess of it
> Also wait till the Clinton emails come out be for November
> She is worried about them look it up
> The US people want change not the same old thing
> Again trump is winning some people just don't like to see people like him winning


Well, if you're determined to ignore the polling data (based on the fact that polls weren't right in a different country once in recent memory and, more importantly, because they disagree with you) then we're just left with guesswork.

I would suggest though, if you're going to say things like "Trump is winning" you should make it clear that this is an opinion based on no actual data, because it could mislead people.


----------



## Spaceman10

Polling data is just what it is.
I take your point, it is my opinion he will do alright, if you do follow what is happening in the US then nobody though he would get this far but he has, what you got to ask your self is why he is doing so well.
Like I said in another post, people want change and they are looking to him 
Again my own opinion


----------



## rustyintegrale

Spaceman10 said:


> ...if you do follow what is happening in the US then nobody though he would get this far but he has, what you got to ask your self is why he is doing so well.


Because the ******** see him as a panacea to all their problems. Exactly like Brexit does here.


----------



## Spaceman10

Now that's a bit hard.
This is the problem when somebody dose not like a opinion they don't like they start name calling.
All I would say is watch that space.
Shame you have to drop so low


----------



## rustyintegrale

Spaceman10 said:


> Now that's a bit hard.
> This is the problem when somebody dose not like a opinion they don't like they start name calling.
> All I would say is watch that space.
> Shame you have to drop so low


I beg your pardon, where's the name calling? I value your opinion as much as anyone else's and it's not about 'dropping low' at all.

People love to 'blame' something they disagree with on something they want no part of and if someone convinces them that X is caused by Y then they will vote against Y.


----------



## Spaceman10

Hold on you called people ********, that not nice, are you saying all the people vote ing him are all red necks 
All I have said he doing something that will change thing for them good or bad


----------



## bobclive22

Spandex said (Secondly, bear in mind that over 85% of EU votes have gone in our favour)

Some examples please.

Spandex (Not sure where to start with this. Firstly, go and read JohnH's posts about the treaty).

Right or wrong you cannot trust Wikipedia on any controversial subject, anyone can alter the information to suite their own agenda. Read this piece from the telegraph. If you want free access to telegraph install the onion browser.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... cracy.html


----------



## bobclive22

Here in Britain we do not want to be run by a supra-national oligarchy.
We are happy with our democratic nation state. What we do want are the
economic links that we thought we were voting for back in the 1975
referendum.

http://www.conservativehome.com/platfor ... ews-5.html

http://beforeitsnews.com/eu/2016/05/the ... 04247.html

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... atic-elite


----------



## rustyintegrale

For all you guys. Yessas or Noas...

This sums it up nicely. Shamelessly copied from my Facebook page...

"We have all been on a night out with that mate who when you are in a club says "it's s*** here" let's go somewhere else. Then when you leave you realise he has no idea where to go and the place you left won't let you back in. Without a decent follow up plan a leave vote could see the UK standing in a kebab shop arguing about who's fault it is."

That, in a nutshell, is it. As currently presented by both camps we haven't got a f***ing clue.

I didn't write it so don't lambast me for the s*** grammar.


----------



## rustyintegrale

bobclive22 said:


> Here in Britain we do not want to be run by a supra-national oligarchy.
> We are happy with our democratic nation state. What we do want are the
> economic links that we thought we were voting for back in the 1975
> referendum.
> 
> http://www.conservativehome.com/platfor ... ews-5.html
> 
> http://beforeitsnews.com/eu/2016/05/the ... 04247.html
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... atic-elite


So you want your cake and to eat it, right?


----------



## Trouble4

> see him as a panacea





> Now that's a bit hard.


No ..I believe it is not a bit hard nor is ""see him as a panacea"" rude or low IMO

People are tired of giving so much money away to Foreign Countries and allowing either illegally or legally immigration Price of health Care and the high benefits for the ones that say their poor and cannot find a job.... Understand disabled or are Senior Citizens ...... and we should take care of the elderly......

Trump just needs to clean up on how he says things a bit ...example: calling the Mexican illegals Rapists! Maybe: Mexican illegals cause Crime such as murder drug running rape blah blah

Americans want change and that is not Clinton = SOSSDD (same old stupid shit different day....)

Trump = unknown can not be any worse... and if he gets any of the promises done that is better then any of the last Presidents can say......

if America cut off all aid to every Country and recycled within America or put it towards our deficit kids would not starve to death in America, deficit gone, Social Security stable...ect ect.......

we are all going to die........ :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: and we well probably screw that up as well......


----------



## les

Copied from a post on another forum.
Quote "I, probably like most of my generation, knew very little about the EU. I had done a Masters degree in the 70s; brought up my family, and by the early 2000s was ready to return to University. I was privileged to return to University to complete a Second Masters Degree; this time in European Policy, European Law and European Economic Analysis. Words cannot describe the horror I felt as I delved into the truth of the EU. Sends shivers down my spine to this day, remembering the horror of the realisation, that we had been hoodwinked into the EU by deceitful, disingenuous, intentionally devious means. The populace of the UK was never intended to find out the truth behind the EU, until they reckoned it was too late. Truth is it almost....almost...almost is too late. We already are, in the UK, all but a federal state in the United States of Europe. You never quite realised that, did you? Why? Because ' they very deliberately decided not to tell you! They deliberately created a political elite who knew full well that power was being ceded , systematically, Treaty by Treaty, to the EU. But who knew? They did! But were we the UK populace ever informed? Absolutely not! Why? They made mega millions from EU scammery & we the minions were shafted day, daily, monthly, yearly & forever. Where did your pensions go? Where did your schools, your NHS, your housing, your social services go? Well, £55 million per day, every day, every week, every month, every year..... Guess what? That is why UK is bankrupted for generations to come, with a £1.5 trillion pound debt. I wish I could enlighten the populace of the UK to the real truth about the EU. I spent a year studying the EU in depth, visiting both the EU Parliament and EU Commission in Brussels. Every word I heard in lectures, hundreds of hours of lectures, every word I researched for my thesis and every thing I saw in Brussels, lead me to the inescapable conclusion that the EU is an utterly corrupt, profligate, political monstrosity which has destroyed British jobs and bankrupted the UK for generations to come. The EU operates on lobbying, which is the technical term for bribery and corruption. Whatever Cameron says, EU law has supremacy over our UK law unless there is Treaty change. He may say so but the truth is that 27 other countries will never agree, this side of eternity, to change the Treaties.
So &#8230;..what is the connection between the EU, the Bilderberg Group and the almost completed TTIP? (Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership)
The Bilderberg Group meet in secret each year and they are a group of phenomenally wealthy men and women from the worlds of big business, banking and politics, coming from across Europe and the US. 
The TTIP represents an integral component of Bilderberg's attempt to rescue the unipolar world (New World Order) by creating a "world company," initially a free trade area, which would connect the United States with Europe. Just as the European Union started as a mere free trade area and was eventually transformed into a political federation which controls upwards of 50 per cent of its member states' laws and regulations with total contempt for national sovereignty and democracy, TTIP is designed to accomplish the same goal, only on a bigger scale.
The treaty is likely to advantage the corporations of both the US and the EU, while disadvantaging their people. It presents a danger to democracy and public protection throughout the trading area.
The Bilderberg Group are focussing on how to derail a global political awakening that threatens to hinder Bilderberg's long standing agenda to centralize power into a one world political federation, a goal set to be advanced with the passage of the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP),
Bilderberg globalists are aghast and there is panic in the ranks that their planned EU superstate is being eroded as a result of a populist resistance all around Europe, mainly centred around animosity towards uncontrolled immigration policies.
And just who might we expect to find at such a secret gathering? Angela Merkel, Herman Van Rompuy (ex President of EU Council), Jean Claude Juncker, (Present President of the EU Commission), Martin Schultz,( Present President of EU Parliament), David Cameron, George Osbourne, Tony Blair, Ed Balls, Rona Fairhead, (Chair of the BBC Trust), Michael O'Leary of RyanAir, Stuart Rose (ex M & S, and BSE Chairman), Bill Clinton, Barak Obama&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..&#8230;and many more. What do they all have in common? They are all trying to persuade you to stay in the EU. Why? Because it is in their warped self interest to do so! Is any of this in your interests? Absolutely not! Their modus operandi is that truth becomes lies and lies become truth. Sound familiar? 
No possible option available, other than to get Out of EU ASAP. Vote Leave!"


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## rustyintegrale

Everyone is entitled to an opinon, including me.

My thoughts...

We in the EU have a great chance to be one of the biggest trading markets in the world.

The EU is not perfect - far from it. There are wasteful practices there but I'm convinced none worse than in our own 'old school back-scratching government'.

We need to rid ourselves of misplaced entitlement (the type that riddles the middle classes) and join hands with our European neighbours.

We can't hide from immigrants so we need to deal with them. My personal feeling is Angela Merkel f***ed up by saying our borders were open. They're not and never should be. We should deal with the problem in their respective countries and also enforce EU laws.

If we're toothless we're open to have the p taken out of us. Despite all of that I believe we're better in Europe. We just need to stop fannying about as a union.

To start faffing about as a country alone is a hiding to nothing and we'll be duplicating EU ground.


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> Spandex said (Secondly, bear in mind that over 85% of EU votes have gone in our favour)
> 
> Some examples please.


This article summarises it but the full source data is available, linked from that page. The actual figure is 86.7% between 2009-2015.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/databl ... an-council



bobclive22 said:


> Spandex (Not sure where to start with this. Firstly, go and read JohnH's posts about the treaty).
> 
> Right or wrong you cannot trust Wikipedia on any controversial subject, anyone can alter the information to suite their own agenda. Read this piece from the telegraph. If you want free access to telegraph install the onion browser.
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... cracy.html


Johns point wasn't an opinion, and is verifiable through other sources if you don't like Wikipedia. Do you think the Telegraph (or any other newspaper) is more impartial or accurate than Wikipedia??


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## rustyintegrale

les said:


> bollocks


And I'm not gonna read it. FFS Les you need to present your case better. Typical UK. Typical. Just typical...


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## Trouble4

http://openeurope.org.uk/intelligence/britain-and-the-eu/top-100-eu-rules-cost-britain-33-3bn/

good luck..........

if I were to live in UK .... I could take the selfish route and vote stay in as I am closer to death then most.. no change much easier

but for the long haul I would vote to get out especially if under 55 years of age.... as over all UK will be better off...

going to be hard ass decisions to be made and a outstanding poker face..........

always do more of this [smiley=book2.gif] [smiley=book2.gif]


----------



## les

rustyintegrale said:


> les said:
> 
> 
> 
> bollocks
> 
> 
> 
> And I'm not gonna read it. FFS Les you need to present your case better. Typical UK. Typical. Just typical...
Click to expand...

You see your wrong yet again. I don't NEED to do anything as my case has been made over many posts. Bullocks just been one you decided to concentrate on.


----------



## rustyintegrale

les said:


> rustyintegrale said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> les said:
> 
> 
> 
> bollocks
> 
> 
> 
> And I'm not gonna read it. FFS Les you need to present your case better. Typical UK. Typical. Just typical...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You see your wrong yet again. I don't NEED to do anything as my case has been made over many posts. Bullocks just been one you decided to concentrate on.
Click to expand...

Yeah you do.

Give me some proven facts.


----------



## rustyintegrale

Trouble4 said:


> http://openeurope.org.uk/intelligence/britain-and-the-eu/top-100-eu-rules-cost-britain-33-3bn/
> 
> good luck..........
> 
> if I were to live in UK .... I could take the selfish route and vote stay in as I am closer to death then most.. no change much easier
> 
> but for the long haul I would vote to get out especially if under 55 years of age.... as over all UK will be better off...
> 
> going to be hard ass decisions to be made and a outstanding poker face..........
> 
> always do more of this [smiley=book2.gif] [smiley=book2.gif]


I'm sorry to read this personal stuff mate. You have my sincere best wishes... 

But most younger people are set to vote in.

I don't match the pattern as I'm an older git and I want to stay in because one day I want to live in Italy.

Is that honest enough for most people?

I certainly don't want to live in this s***ty country for ever. Especially with all you bigots.


----------



## Trouble4

> I'm sorry to read this personal stuff mate. You have my sincere best wishes..


all good... just I am older a senior citizen   8)



> But most younger people are set to vote in.


 Thanks for that comment...

wow I am back ass-ward in my thought process on the young and old

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-britain-wants-to-leave-and-who-wants-to-rem/

a short clip from the above article if one can believe

The old and young generations can't agree on the EU

There is a huge gulf among young and older voters over the European issue - with seven in 10 young voters backing the European Union.

73 per cent of those aged between 18-29 want to remain in the EU, while 63 per cent of those aged over 60 want to leave.

The middle-aged population are divided almost evenly on the issue. As older voters are more likely to vote, this could be good news for the "leave" campaign.


----------



## les

rustyintegrale said:


> Trouble4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> http://openeurope.org.uk/intelligence/britain-and-the-eu/top-100-eu-rules-cost-britain-33-3bn/
> 
> good luck..........
> 
> if I were to live in UK .... I could take the selfish route and vote stay in as I am closer to death then most.. no change much easier
> 
> but for the long haul I would vote to get out especially if under 55 years of age.... as over all UK will be better off...
> 
> going to be hard ass decisions to be made and a outstanding poker face..........
> 
> always do more of this [smiley=book2.gif] [smiley=book2.gif]
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry to read this personal stuff mate. You have my sincere best wishes...
> 
> But most younger people are set to vote in.
> 
> I don't match the pattern as I'm an older git and I want to stay in because one day I want to live in Italy.
> 
> Is that honest enough for most people?
> 
> I certainly don't want to live in this s***ty country for ever. Especially with all you bigots.
Click to expand...

Italy another EU country in uncontrollable spiralling debt good luck there. At least you will be able to desert your adopted country and return even if we vote to leave the EU just like those people in poir countries who choose to come here while we remain but it's a much bigger issu6than just immigration now there is a couple of facts for you. Just be careful what you wish for.


----------



## Spandex

Trouble4 said:


> The middle-aged population are divided almost evenly on the issue. As older voters are more likely to vote, this could be good news for the "leave" campaign.


And this is the worst part of the whole thing. If we do leave it will be because of the older generation who won't even be around long enough to see most of the effects of the decision. The ones who will be impacted the most, and for the longest, will be the ones who didn't choose to leave - ironic considering the Leave supporters apparent obsession with "being told what to do by people we didn't vote for".


----------



## les

Spandex said:


> Trouble4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The middle-aged population are divided almost evenly on the issue. As older voters are more likely to vote, this could be good news for the "leave" campaign.
> 
> 
> 
> And this is the worst part of the whole thing. If we do leave it will be because of the older generation who won't even be around long enough to see most of the effects of the decision. The ones who will be impacted the most, and for the longest, will be the ones who didn't choose to leave - ironic considering the Leave supporters apparent obsession with "being told what to do by people we didn't vote for".
Click to expand...

It's not the worst part of the whole thing that is just your opinion not fact again just scaremongering as usual . If we vote to stay the horrors of the decision (yes my opinion)will be felt soon enough you can at least be sure of that. Give it 5 years and many of use pensioners will still be around. I fear not so much for my children bad enough it will bevfor them but for my 6 grandchildren and it's their future I will be voting for not my own. Strange isn't it how the younger generation is blamed for so much but of course when it suits people they are the good guys. Fact is the 18 to 20 odd year olds have not lived any sort of life as yet and yet all of a sudden they are experienced enough to know what's best for the country. My mother is 91 and still in sound body and mind am far from sure I want to be around for another 25 years should we vote to remain in this undemocratic unelected corrupt EU.


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## John-H

Our civil service and judiciary don't get elected either Les. You keep missing this point.

Oh and the actual fact is that if you are 18 you are deemed old enough to vote. Are you saying that in your opinion the age should be raised to 50 or something and have the right of dictatorship over the young :lol:

By the way I thought that big unattributed third party opinion you posted sounded like a scaremongering conspiracy theory to me. He stopped sort of saying that they were all alien lizards thankfully :wink:


----------



## Spandex

les said:


> Spandex said:
> 
> 
> 
> And this is the worst part of the whole thing. If we do leave it will be because of the older generation who won't even be around long enough to see most of the effects of the decision. The ones who will be impacted the most, and for the longest, will be the ones who didn't choose to leave - ironic considering the Leave supporters apparent obsession with "being told what to do by people we didn't vote for".
> 
> 
> 
> It's not the worst part of the whole thing that is just your opinion not fact again just scaremongering as usual . If we vote to stay the horrors of the decision (yes my opinion)will be felt soon enough you can at least be sure of that. Give it 5 years and many of use pensioners will still be around. I fear not so much for my children bad enough it will bevfor them but for my 6 grandchildren and it's their future I will be voting for not my own. Strange isn't it how the younger generation is blamed for so much but of course when it suits people they are the good guys. Fact is the 18 to 20 odd year olds have not lived any sort of life as yet and yet all of a sudden they are experienced enough to know what's best for the country. My mother is 91 and still in sound body and mind am far from sure I want to be around for another 25 years should we vote to remain in this undemocratic unelected corrupt EU.
Click to expand...

So, for future reference, do you just see any statement pointing out a negative aspect of leaving Europe as scaremongering?? Because all I mentioned was what I thought was the worst aspect of a 'Leave' result. Surely your post referring to 'horrors' is more aptly described as scaremongering? I suspect it's only scaremongering when the other side does it though...

Yes yes, I get it. Old man thinks he knows better than younger people. Doesn't really change the irony though, does it?

As a thought exercise, can you list all the positive aspect of staying in the EU?


----------



## les

John-H said:


> Our civil service and judiciary don't get elected either Les. You keep missing this point.
> 
> Oh and the actual fact is that if you are 18 you are deemed old enough to vote. Are you saying that in your opinion the age should be raised to 50 or something and have the right of dictatorship over the young :lol:
> 
> By the way I thought that big unattributed third party opinion you posted sounded like a scaremongering conspiracy theory to me. He stopped sort of saying that they were all alien lizards thankfully :wink:


 Think you need to read what I wrote and not jump to conclusions John. I never said I accuse the young of anything just many do
The civil service and judiciarydon't make the laws the government or EU do. They only uphold them.


----------



## drjam

For anyone who's interested in info on the issues behind the debate (rather than the regurgitated scaremongering nonsense and misinformation coming from both sides), this site has - imo - some more balanced and informative reading:
https://fullfact.org/europe/


----------



## Spandex

les said:


> I never said I accuse the young of anything just many do


No, you accused them of not having the experience to know what's good for *their* country.


----------



## Spandex

drjam said:


> For anyone who's interested in info on the issues behind the debate (rather than the regurgitated scaremongering nonsense and misinformation coming from both sides), this site has - imo - some more balanced and informative reading:
> https://fullfact.org/europe/


I can also thoroughly recommend fullfact.org (for fact-checking any claims made by politicians or the press, not just those relating to the referendum). One of the few sites that gives all their sources and clearly list any assumptions they have to make.


----------



## John-H

les said:


> John-H said:
> 
> 
> 
> Our civil service and judiciary don't get elected either Les. You keep missing this point.
> 
> Oh and the actual fact is that if you are 18 you are deemed old enough to vote. Are you saying that in your opinion the age should be raised to 50 or something and have the right of dictatorship over the young :lol:
> 
> By the way I thought that big unattributed third party opinion you posted sounded like a scaremongering conspiracy theory to me. He stopped sort of saying that they were all alien lizards thankfully :wink:
> 
> 
> 
> Think you need to read what I wrote and not jump to conclusions John. I never said I accuse the young of anything just many do
> The civil service and judiciarydon't make the laws the government or EU do. They only uphold them.
Click to expand...

You said, "Fact is the 18 to 20 odd year olds have not lived any sort of life as yet and yet all of a sudden they are experienced enough to know what's best for the country."

I was asking you what you meant as the inference could be taken to mean they shouldn't have a vote. Glad that's not what you meant :lol:

Our civil service do draft law in detail and our judiciary set precedent on interpretation of law. The law is the will of an elected parliament of course.

The EU civil service enact the treaties agreed by democratically elected EU member states. It's very similar in terms of elected will and servant - unless you are talking about the European Parliament with all the democratically elected MEPs etc. voted for by the much fairer system of PR.

So, I just can't quite understand the repeated claims of lack of democracy or being unelected etc. Is it just a wish that if repeated often enough as a mantra people might believe it?


----------



## les

Spandex said:


> les said:
> 
> 
> 
> I never said I accuse the young of anything just many do
> 
> 
> 
> No, you accused them of not having the experience to know what's good for *their* country.
Click to expand...

History and experiences tells us a lot ignore it at your peril.


----------



## Trouble4

> "Fact is the 18 to 20 odd year olds have not lived any sort of life as yet and yet all of a sudden they are experienced enough to know what's best for the country."


Does anyone no matter what age they are know what is best..........?

Believe it all comes down to common sense.........

Take a piece a paper on one side put the Pro's the other the Con's list them to facts

and see where you end up and what is best in your own opinion...........


----------



## Spandex

les said:


> History and experiences tells us a lot ignore it at your peril.


Whilst history and experience are useful sources of information, the main reason old codgers value them so highly is that they are pretty much the only advantages they have left over the young. Unfortunately, that advantage often manifests itself as inflexibility, stubbornness and a blinding obsession with the past.

Is there something about your unique past experiences that gives you particular insight into this issue? Or is this just a general "I'm older, therefore I must know more"?


----------



## John-H

Trouble4 said:


> "Fact is the 18 to 20 odd year olds have not lived any sort of life as yet and yet all of a sudden they are experienced enough to know what's best for the country."
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone no matter what age they are know what is best..........?
> 
> Believe it all comes down to common sense.........
> 
> Take a piece a paper on one side put the Pro's the other the Con's list them to facts
> 
> and see where you end up and what is best in your own opinion...........
Click to expand...

That's often a good idea when you are undecided as it makes you dispassionately list the points and then allows you another perspective view to see how you feel on balance.

I suspect many might make a one sided list at this point though as they have already decided - but perhaps forcing yourself to review the situation having gained more knowledge is a good idea.


----------



## les

Spandex said:


> les said:
> 
> 
> 
> History and experiences tells us a lot ignore it at your peril.
> 
> 
> 
> Whilst history and experience are useful sources of information, the main reason old codgers value them so highly is that they are pretty much the only advantages they have left over the young. Unfortunately, that advantage often manifests itself as inflexibility, stubbornness and a blinding obsession with the past.
> 
> Is there something about your unique past experiences that gives you particular insight into this issue? Or is this just a general "I'm older, therefore I must know more"?
Click to expand...

Yes there is but I am.not going to be reduced to your insulting level. I have lived trough the before and during and I don't care for the during. On that basis my experience and the history gives me and many of my generation something tangible rather than hearsay for which many others rely on. Now if you want to throw insults at the older generation then do so where your manner is better appreciated. You seem to forget there are many older people in office and backing remain.


----------



## Spandex

les said:


> Yes there is but I am.not going to be reduced to your insulting level. I have lived trough the before and during and I don't care for the during. On that basis my experience and the history gives me and many of my generation something tangible rather than hearsay for which many others rely on. Now if you want to throw insults at the older generation then do so where your manner is better appreciated. You seem to forget there are many older people in office and backing remain.


I think we're probably both old enough not to really be insulted by any of my post. And yes, I do include myself in the 'older people' group, however I make a conscious effort not to fall into the all too easy trap of imagining that my life experiences are any more valuable than anyone else, regardless of age. And whether I like it or not, the younger generation are going to be most affected by decisions we make now and it's a little self-centred to dismiss their preferences. It's just about acceptable for parents to patronise their own children by deciding what's best for them, but to tell a bunch of young adults that we know better than them what they need is pretty poor.

Being alive before we joined the EU doesn't seem to me to be particularly useful in judging what's best for the UK now, as without a time machine we won't be returning to a pre-1973 situation. The world is a very different place now so we need to look forward to what we will have if we stay or leave, not look back to what we nostalgically remember being better when we were kids. That being said, I think it would take some spectacularly rosey glasses to think that pre-1973 was an age we should try to recreate.


----------



## Spandex

John-H said:


> That's often a good idea when you are undecided as it makes you dispassionately list the points and then allows you another perspective view to see how you feel on balance.
> 
> I suspect many might make a one sided list at this point though as they have already decided - but perhaps forcing yourself to review the situation having gained more knowledge is a good idea.


This is why I asked Les in a previous post to list the positive points of staying in the EU. I'm not sure if he saw it or not.


----------



## bobclive22

Nobel for stomach ulcer discovery and Helicobacter pylori, two Australian doctors were ridiculed by the *educated elite *for over 8 years in the end the *experts were wrong*.

The banning of DDT, The publication in 1962 of Rachel Carson's Silent Spring stimulated widespread public concern over the dangers of improper pesticide use and the need for better pesticide controls. There is no evidence even today that DDT did any harm to the environment or to wildlife, what it does do is to kill mosquitoes in large numbers, In September 2006, the World Health Organization declared its support for the indoor use of DDT in African countries where malaria remains a major health problem, in the intervening years the banning of this pesticide has caused over 40 million deaths in African countries manly children, DDT is the only cheap way of saving millions of lives, mosquito nets are a joke. *The experts were wrong 
* but it`s only Africans that died.






The experts were wrong, why should we accept their judgement on Brexit, the easiest way to control the population is through fear.

http://www.thetruthaboutthelaw.com/dont ... -yourself/


----------



## Spandex

Really?

If I find some examples where 'the experts' were right will you suddenly trust them about brexit? :wink:


----------



## Trouble4

> I think we're probably both old enough not to really be insulted by any of my post. And yes, I do include myself in the 'older people' group, however I make a conscious effort not to fall into the all too easy trap of imagining that my life experiences are any more valuable than anyone else, regardless of age.


agree not much get's to the older/elderly :lol: :lol: ....... you can mess with my wife in fact keep her :lol: :lol: no charge.



> I make a conscious effort not to fall into the all too easy trap of imagining that my life experiences are any more valuable than anyone else, regardless of age


I would like to think that myself but it is not true to me anyway....... My Life experiences are mine and more valuable than anyone else's as this is what has shaped me as a human / way I think / who I am now and who I want to change into.....

Example: I very close friends Daughter died at 18 (I knew her daughter very well) at the viewing we were in line to give our condolences the Lady in front of us said "I am sorry I know how you feel" I saw the Mother look at her strange and when we stepped up I said I too am sorry but have no concept of how you feel nor do I wish to ever... She gave me a big hug .....

I consider those born before 1960 to be Seasoned / Older / Yes wiser :lol: and those that own a TT have more then a young heart to bad it does not beat like it did.........


----------



## bobclive22

Spandex said (Secondly, bear in mind that over 85% of EU votes have gone in our favour)

Some examples please.

I asked for examples not *statistics*

What positive votes have the UK won that actually benefited the UK citizens and did the unelected bureaucrats actually agree those changes.

You seem to forget that Cameron got virtually nothing meaningful in his negotiations prior to this vote, that should ring alarm bells to any rational thinking person. As for these business leaders advocating remaining, Lord Rose for one, ex Marks & Spenser boss who ran the company further down the swanee in his tenureship, you trash a company then get made a lord.

A Canadian running the Bank of England, interest rates are going up, no they are not, yes they are, no they are not, if these clowns had a clue we would not have had the financial crash. An eminent Canadian economist stated that inflation of 6% is satisfactory. The reason for this is that inflation erodes your dept, but governments don`t like that, they like you trapped in dept so they can control you.


----------



## bobclive22

Spandex said (If we do leave it will be because of the older generation who won't even be around long enough to see most of the effects of the decision.)

Older and wiser, Spain, Italy, Greece, and the other poor countries are locked into the euro, they will suffer for generations, they can`t revalue their currency. They are the same as this example but worse.

The poorest part of England - and the second poorest part of the UK - is the North East, where individuals' gross disposable household income per head is *£14,393,* compared with *£21,446 *in London.

You won`t stop monitory union if you remain, there will always be a politician like Blair to sell you out.


----------



## Spandex

The source linked from that article had details of every single vote if you want to do the research. I'm not going to post individual examples because then we'll just end up pointlessly arguing about those specific examples rather than addressing the main point - namely that the votes go in our favour 86.7% of the time, which is a statistic that would surprise many Leave supporters because it contradicts the misinformation that's been fed to them and they swallowed without question because it supported their world view.


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> You won`t stop monitory union if you remain, there will always be a politician like Blair to sell you out.


The likelihood of the UK joining the euro after the issues highlighted by the recent financial crisis is so vanishingly small that it's not even worth considering. If that is what you think you're saving us from by voting to leave then you're kidding yourself.


----------



## 3TT3

What would change if you VOTE to leave the EU.. nothing much initially.
1.The great axe of brussels will drop? and the channel tunnel will be closed off on the french side.. no not really (cmon)
Hve you seen the timeline for gradual withdrawal from "the union"?. Camerons plan for staged UK self determination?
No of course not
2.Your politicians or more likely their aides/civil service will over a period of time negotiate their own return to national decision making .. In effect returning to the EEC as originally envisaged and which the UK population already voted on.
They didnt vote on the united states of europe, and were never given the option to, altho labour promised such a referendum,never showed.

The financial markets will be in chaos for a few days.. nothing new there. The pounds value will go up n down.. gee no ss for a couple of weeks.You will no longer have to sell bannanas to an exact brussels spec.

The military thing.. you guys are in Nato, are members of the famous 5, are an allowed nuclear power , dont do yourselves down.
Dont be under the illusion that a vote to stay in the USE will maintain the status quo.. ie it wont be interpreted as .."oh ok in the interests of being european weel stay in ". It will be "open season".. there you go Uk loves the model of USE, even if its 1%.
Whatever we "europeans" do or decide.. UK will love it.Ere David drop the pound.. The people have voted for it and the euro is european you know it makes sense..
Blair n Brown chickened out on dropping the pound but now with the "we wanna be in the union " mandate you can drop it mate, its not like the sheep have to vote whether to keep it or not :lol:

The immigration q: I dont want to do a enoch "rivers of blood" bs thing.. you guys have polices on former members of the british empire n all sorts .. but why complicate it more.
One thing I find ludicrous and we in Ireland have a woefull rep on european union voting  , is the fact that I could go and reside in england (too late now for this vote) and vote whatever way I wanted (were encouraged to vote in the interests of ireland natch  ).
But english or UK people, resident here cant vote at all in any Irish elections/ referendums/whatever.

Vote to leave and the united states of europe will die in its tracks.. tg..  you were very lucky the european anthem didnt make it into the last treaty.. stay in and it will in the next. "god save our gracious europe"

Somebody mentioned about "the young wanting to stay in the USE". If I was post gcse or post grad again, I;d want to as well.
Who wants that passport control sheet when you just wanna partaay :lol: .

As posted before and from personal experience of us "the sheep" and Id bet some decent money on this.
Remember the european union is gonna be the USA, they have no other ideas.

(a)If the UK votes to stay in the union even by 0.1 %, you will be told to suck it and take whatever integration is given and forget about the pound and the "nation".. you will be a european state. a large one sure , but thas it.
(b) if the UK should vote to leave the union by 0.1% that will be so negligible as to not even need an explanation for a rerun of the vote.
(c)If the vote to leave is say 55/45 .. kind unlikely but nm.. there will be "doom n gloom" omg europe is goin down the toilet.. deutsche central bank and greece central bank (if there is one ) will moan and wail and tear their hair out . Nuclear winter will descend across europe(unless theres a rerun) and BMW will stop producing mini's
In other words you guys will go again till you get it right..
(d) If the vote to leave the union is 60/40 well then the united states of europe is fooked nothing much else would change. that much would never be pulled back , no matter how much bs or spin is applied. Course itll never be that hi.

Whats the point in the referendum/vote then ?
Cameron promised it to suck votes off ukip.. how much weel never know.
In essence leave voters got 3 chances slim/ none and 60/40.
Why bother then?
The illusion of democracy.


----------



## Spandex

3TT3 said:


> Whats the point in the referendum/vote then ?
> Cameron promised it to suck votes off ukip.. how much weel never know.
> In essence leave voters got 3 chances slim/ none and 60/40.
> Why bother then?
> The illusion of democracy.


Can you go back and edit your post to make it clear that the stuff about re-counts or re-votes is just a load of unsubstantiated nonsense that you have no evidence for whatsoever? I've read enough of your posts to know that they're generally just a stream of consciousness that rarely contain any actual information, but other people reading your post here might not. I think it's probably best if you warn them or maybe just remove the made up bits.

Ironically, the only politician who was dumb enough to start talking about voting again if it's a close call is Farage.


----------



## Dash

Of course we can trade if we're not in the EU. But not as easily. The trade block is quite advantageous, especially given the volumes we trade with our neighbours.

If you don't like EU policies you can vote for different MEPs. But in reality, there are far less crap coming out if the EU than Westminster.

If you can drag yourself away from the Daily Mail, you will see that our government has little interest in preserving the rights of the individual, it is only Europe that is providing any restraint.

I suspect we will be fine if we leave, but it will be bad for a long time until we get there. But we'll be better if we stay in, especially for the individual.


----------



## rustyintegrale

Dash said:


> If you can drag yourself away from the Daily Mail...


Therein lies the problem. This IS middle-England fodder.

Sadly, so many people suck up the total tosh this purported 'newspaper' dishes out. It is a verminous, intolerance-inducing rag.


----------



## bobclive22

Spandex, said

(namely that the votes go in our favour 86.7% of the time,)

That`s the same bull politicians use, it`s all about the quality and importance of the votes in favour, re Camerons renegotiation.

You can have 99% in your favour but if they are trivial or none binding you have 99% of nothing, thats exactly whats happened, That`s why the fisherman, farmers and the majority of small businesses want out.


----------



## rustyintegrale

bobclive22 said:


> That`s why the fisherman, farmers and the majority of small businesses want out.


I have a small business and want in. And according to a report on the radio yesterday most farmers want in because the government has made no promises regarding the financial support given to them by the EU. If they vote out they will lose that. So far there is no guarantee of that funding being replaced by a non-EU UK government.


----------



## bobclive22

We didn`t have an empire by sitting on our asses trading with Europe, we wouldn`t have a world class financial sector either, Hong Kong comes to mind, out of interest what business are you in.

What did you expect the in campaign government would say to the farmers.

Just found your web page, your in computer repairs, Iv`e been building PC`s for 40 years, easy, why do you need to be in the EU to repair computers, Iphones and tablets. Iv`e retrieved data off corrupted hard drives no problem, just bought a camera TZ7, guy sent 8 gig card formated (he thought there was no data on it), I retrieved 1 full length 1080p movie and around 250 photo`s off card. Everything for repairing and setting up Pc`s including apple is on the net just like TT forum but easier.

I see you are in the more affluent part of the country, would that be up yours mate i`m ok.


----------



## bobclive22

Dash, (Of course we can trade if we're not in the EU. But not as easily).

China appears to have no problem trading throughout every corner of the world, you just have to get off your ass.


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> Spandex, said
> 
> (namely that the votes go in our favour 86.7% of the time,)
> 
> That`s the same bull politicians use, it`s all about the quality and importance of the votes in favour, re Camerons renegotiation.
> 
> You can have 99% in your favour but if they are trivial or none binding you have 99% of nothing, thats exactly whats happened, That`s why the fisherman, farmers and the majority of small businesses want out.


Just so we're clear, you won't do any actual research into the votes yourself but you have still managed to work out that the votes that we 'won' must all be trivial and non-binding?


----------



## bobclive22

Spandex, (Just so we're clear, you won't do any actual research into the votes yourself)

Not up to me, you stated the percentage I requested some examples.


----------



## bobclive22

You`ve heard the term (all you eggs in one basket) here is an example.

When Marks & Spencer were the high street Darling it was like the golden egg to supply this company, the problem was that your production had to be 100% for Marks, that was fine when Marks was doing OK, when marks business started to slide many suppliers were suddenly informed their products were no longer needed, no warning Marks just cancelled.

Now consider the EU as the one basket with no negotiation.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/4460 ... rices.html

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... and.uknews


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> Spandex, (Just so we're clear, you won't do any actual research into the votes yourself)
> 
> Not up to me, you stated the percentage I requested some examples.


I gave you the website with details of every single vote! So my point still stands - how can you make sweeping statements about the importance of the votes we won if you don't even know what they are? Bizarrely blaming me for your own lack of knowledge doesn't change the fundamental disconnect here.


----------



## 3TT3

"I am Nigel Farrage" ! 
Thats in the sense of a "foreigner" expressing an opinion on the UK referendum on EU membership .

He, Nigel that is, did the same here.

A bit of background and reasons I think you may possibly be voting again.

1. We here(southern Ireland) rejected the Nice treaty back in 2002 by 53% .That didnt count  and there is no "best of 3 " option in these things .
After a bit of campaigning /goading/scaremongering etc we got the real vote right the second time..Phew united states of Europe back on track.

2.Then the EU "leaders" came up with the "European constitution" , anyone remember that?
Unfortunately for the USE peeps , they also had to give France and the Netherlands a vote on this constitution,couldnt wiggle it thru without votes in these countries cos theyd have to actually change their own constitution a bit. There was a vote planned for Ireland also..
What happened.
France rejected it , Netherlands rejected it , they didnt bother with the planned Irish vote...didnt matter at that stage and those ungratefull Irish would probably have rejected it too  .

"Wtf are we gonna do now lads ?" (leaders discussion)
Bob:"Right we dont call it the constitution for a start"
follower:"Huzzah that man!"
Bob: "2nd we pare it back and cut out any bits that would need a vote by the sheep..er I mean the voters ,we just push more thru our parliaments as usual ,then we can add a bit more in the next "treaty"..nudge nudge wink wink"
follower: "Brilliant!"
Irish guy at the back:" er excuse me sor ,our national constititution means we gotta let the..s.. er population vote on just about anything that might affect it.. sorry  "
follower : "Christ on a bike"
follower2:"GG ,the Irish problem again.. you better not f this up like last time"
Bob:"Can you do it man? "
Irish guy :"Yes of course !"
Bob : "Right weel call it the Lisbon treaty ,we got it set ok..no people voting anywhere?..except for you know where ?"
Follower: "Yep I'm good" 
same all round .
Bob:"Hey Irish guy , you better put a clause in your national constitution that there will be no more plebiscites (that'd be votes by the plebs) on the implementation of this treaty"
Irish guy: "Yes Sor" salute, "weel give em bread and circuses!"

The vote and prior to it
We had french president "scheduled state visit" my rosy red rear, comin to tell us how to vote.
He was still embarrased by the french constitutional vote.

And lo.."Nigel" appeared here also to express his opinion . He got an awfull lot of ribbing in the media "brits comin here telling us how to vote ,etc" "Monster raving loony party"

Whatever your opinions of Nigel, To me the French pres was doing exactly the same thing.

We voted no..53 /54 % again, I forget, grats from the people of France and the Netherlands. Our pm announced "we must respect the will of the Irish people" 
Gimme a break. read that as (we must repeat the will of the Irish people)

and so it came to pass with the (12 promises extracted on the Irish pm's shuttle diplomacy 12 iou's )..Hence my reference to Chamberlain and Munich and waving the piece of worthless paper coming off the plane.

The "promises" have dissapeared into the mists of time but it was sufficient reason to make us vote again.. + the usual woe be unto you if you dont vote yes this time, winter will descend across the land , you will be shunned ,even the pope considers you naughty!
The lisbon treaty squeaked thru on the replay!

Thats my experience of EU voting.. EEC is long gone.
I find it at the least disingenuous ,that the same people who criticised "a brit" for coming here to tell us how to vote are now encouraging Irish people en mass and UK people living in Ireland to vote "stay in".Not because of any concern about UK but solely on the basis it might be bad for Ireland !! and nobody in govt seems to mind.

There has been criticism here about the lack of a plan B for Ireland in the event of a Brexit.
Nothin new there , head in the sand time.
The good old fallback of threats of no more bread and circuses allways worked here. Rerun rerun!

The UK plan if the nation does decide  to leave.. well I suppose that must be behind the Break in case of emergency , glass... That or the "if we dont think about it, it wont happen" scenario..or perhaps  it just doesnt need any really, just gradually pull out of the euro mess.

However for those reasons and my own experience of reruns here. I can see it happening in the UK too, if the sheep dont get their minds right and vote stay in the union.
Perhaps UK politicians respect the people more than here so even a tiny majority to leave would be absolute ?

"Whooh goes, Whooh stays , you decide "


----------



## Spandex

If you can post the info above *without* doing it in the form of an imaginary conversation, we might be able to read it. Ta.


----------



## les

Spandex said:


> If you can post the info above *without* doing it in the form of an imaginary conversation, we might be able to read it. Ta.


 There you go again try you not we. I can read it perfectly and what he is saying. Am surprised with your intelligence you find it so difficult and no am not going to explain it to you.


----------



## Spandex

les said:


> and no am not going to explain it to you.


Could you at least explain who Bob, Follower, Follower2 and 'The Irish Guy' are? :lol:


----------



## les

Spandex said:


> les said:
> 
> 
> 
> and no am not going to explain it to you.
> 
> 
> 
> Could you at least explain who Bob, Follower, Follower2 and 'The Irish Guy' are? :lol:
Click to expand...

All characters in 3tt3s play based on real people and events as he sees it best described who each is by the man himself should he wish to explain.


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## Shug750S

This post chain is great.

Haven't seen so much argument on this site since the Scots wanted out, and didn't get it.

Keep it up lads, and remember it's only a forum, no need to get nasty.


----------



## rustyintegrale

bobclive22 said:


> I see you are in the more affluent part of the country, would that be up yours mate i`m ok.


Make all the assumptions you like. Like most made by you so far it'll probably be wrong...


----------



## rustyintegrale

Spandex said:


> If you can post the info above *without* doing it in the form of an imaginary conversation, we might be able to read it. Ta.


*Searches for 'Like' button*

If you can't spell, construct sentences or write paragraphs properly, then at least read it through before posting - or worse, copying and pasting...


----------



## Dash

We had an Empire by raping and pillaging our way unchecked around the globe. That's never going to happen again for us.

Comparing us to china is lunacy. Living standards, incomes, things people are prepared to do, entirely different. China has been able to trade anywhere due to their lower costs - something that has been getting harder as a middle class emerges.

The bulk of our produce is financial services. Even if farmers did want out, their opinion does not impact massively on our exports. Of course getting out will probably promote home-grown stuff as importing food becomes harder - this is good news for farmers, but means more expensive prices for us as competition dwindles. But that's ok, we will just work a bit harder on all that steel we all like manufacturing - and we can feel proud about higher prices because there's no dirty Europeans getting involved.


----------



## John-H

I was about to say something similar...



bobclive22 said:


> We didn`t have an empire by sitting on our asses trading with Europe,


An empire? That was a long time ago and things have changed since then. We are not in a position to re-create such a thing nor I think should we want to. Cooperation seems a better model.



bobclive22 said:


> Dash, (Of course we can trade if we're not in the EU. But not as easily).
> 
> China appears to have no problem trading throughout every corner of the world, you just have to get off your ass.


China is huge and the cost of production is low. They, ironically are in a much better position to create an empire but I think most wouldn't want that.

Trading and cooperating is a better way but you are more likely to get a better deal If you have the economic clout of the EU behind you. The UK will not have the weight on its own.


----------



## Dash

To go with all the talk of China.

*GDP 2014 World Bank*
EU: $18.5t
US: $17.4t
China: $10.4t

UK (included with Europe above): $2.9t

The UK is one of the worlds largest economies, but it's still tiny in comparison to the EU as a whole. The more the EU acts as a whole the harder it'll become for the UK and other small economies.


----------



## bobclive22

The UK is one of the worlds largest economies, but it's still tiny in comparison to the EU as a whole. The more the EU acts as a whole the harder it'll become for the UK and other small economies.

How did a small island gain such a large empire, it appears size does not matter.


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## T3RBO

I'm voting out... We lost an empire and now trying to give away the last of our dignity


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> The UK is one of the worlds largest economies, but it's still tiny in comparison to the EU as a whole. The more the EU acts as a whole the harder it'll become for the UK and other small economies.
> 
> How did a small island gain such a large empire, it appears size does not matter.


I don't think John said that physical size *did* matter. He was talking about economic size and as we won't be returning to the behaviour that got us an empire (no one with any sense of human decency would want us to) there's no point in using that as a frame of reference.


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## fut1a

It's out for me too.

I research and research some more before I buy or do anything but I will gladly be labelled an uneducated moron as long as we get out.


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## Toshiba

I don't mind either way, but if we get rid of the EU to saving paying billions are we going to get rid of Scotland too rather than wasting loads of money there too?

Can England get a referendum on leaving scotland?


----------



## rustyintegrale

Is it any wonder there's so much confusion? Even the politicians are calling each other liars.

It's all a goddam joke.


----------



## Dash

https://www.facebook.com/plugins/video. ... &width=560


----------



## John-H

I watched Newsnight last night. They have been running an ongoing feature inviting campaigners and experts to present for and against arguments to a panel of undecided voters over several episodes. Last night was the final crunch time. When asked by Evan, all but one of the undecided, having heard all the arguments and asked many questions, had switched to stay.

The reasons cited were that the exit campaigners had not proved their case but merely expressed hopeful thinking and to leave was a clear change with associated risk.

One killer admission was that the Brexit campaigners agreed that the UK could not operate within the single market without agreeing to all the imposed terms including free movement of people - you know, the Schengen agreement we currently have an opt out from. They said it would be worse to leave then agree to the standard terms and have free movement.

So, this then meant that some other deal would have to be negotiated but the EU was unlikely to agree terms favorable to the UK as that would undermine the single market and encourage others to leave for a similar arrangement. So it's not going to happen.

The UK would then have to fall back on standard world trade terms and spending years trying to negotiate something better with individual countries or blocks. Meanwhile our balance of payments suffers and the effect of this on our NHS and other public services would far outweigh the burden that migration might impose (not that the war in Syria is to do with the EU).

The Brexit campaign seems to have lost the economic argument and shutting the drawbridge on migration which seems be their major argument has a high price.

What's left seems to be nostalgia to a foregone empire age that is not going to be repeated.... unless, wait a minute... we might discover viable fusion power and take over! Ah but there is JET (Joint European Taurus) which through collaboration is more likely to get there first. Better together it seems.


----------



## Spaceman10

I feel some people have for got what a great county this is and just want to be ruled by people they did not vote for


----------



## Spaceman10

Like it or not immigration will play a large part of the vote.


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## Dash

Well summarised John. I fear from reading this thread that whether it makes sense for all our futures is irrelevant. It's more about an unfounded notion that the EU is stopping our all powerful ability to rule the world with an imperial army - which to many people here seems to be seen as a desirable thing!!!

As stated at the start, Brexit is thinly veiled xenophobia. This has been demonstrated through proper open debate. But I don't think exposing the xenophobia is actually do anything to change the sentiment, they'll still be out in force trying to make Britain great through self destructive actions. My only hope is the level headed turn up to vote.


----------



## Spaceman10

If the eu is so great for us why don't we have a fishing industry, any more speak to people in the small ports that was once great fishing ports ask your self why other county's in the eu fish our waters and then sell our fish back to us.
Guy you really need to get out and talk to people who this has happen to and understand what the eu has done to there industry. They have killed it off


----------



## les




----------



## Spaceman10

+1


----------



## les




----------



## Dash

Since when has fishing been the backbone of the UK economy? Anyway, the fisheries policy is about fairness and critically about ensuring sustainability of stocks.

Stocks were in major decline before the fisheries policy, which frankly hasn't gone far enough. Without it trawlers would put themselves out of business sooner.


----------



## Spandex

Love the Norway post Les. I imagine when you saw that image you thought to yourself "this sounds good, but what if it's only showing us one side of the story in order to sway the uncritical thinkers into voting Leave?" Then I imagine you went off and did some research, because, knowing you, you wouldn't want to vote on something so important after only looking at things that agreed with your initial viewpoint...

So, I'm just going to assume that you know how the cost of living in Norway is *massively* higher than the UK. And you know that they contribute a huge amount of money to the EU every year in order to continue being part of various trade, legal and political initiatives (http://www.eu-norway.org/eu/Financial-c ... 0VQzJB4Wh9). In fact, I suspect that post above was just part one of a two part post, and you were just putting the finishing touches to the second post which explained all these other points about how Norway exists 'outside' the EU?


----------



## les

The cost of living in Australia is also a lot higher than the UK but then so are the wages. Of course the cost of living in Norway is extortionate that's why the people of Norway twice voted not to join the EU so they could be worse off than if they where to become members. I think not. I don't see Norway rushing to have a 3rd vote to join the EU the country's I see wanting to join it are those very poor ones starting with Turkey along with another 7 poor countries.


----------



## leopard

Les for president ....El presidente


----------



## les

leopard said:


> Les for president ....El presidente


lol na I would be no good you see I believe in democracy not dictatorship like we have with the EU. You know what our fathers and forefathers fought for over 2 world wars. Just to be free to decide our own laws and future direction. To be able to vote in our out those we wish. You know all those kind of things which have been and are being eroded and taken away from us, :wink:


----------



## rustyintegrale

les said:


> leopard said:
> 
> 
> 
> Les for president ....El presidente
> 
> 
> 
> lol na I would be no good you see I believe in democracy not dictatorship like we have with the EU. You know what our fathers and forefathers fought for over 2 world wars. Just to be free to decide our own laws and future direction. To be able to vote in our out those we wish. You know all those kind of things which have been and are being eroded and taken away from us, :wink:
Click to expand...

By the same token, are you not denying those who think different to you, the right to enjoy that same democracy?


----------



## les

rustyintegrale said:


> les said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> leopard said:
> 
> 
> 
> Les for president ....El presidente
> 
> 
> 
> lol na I would be no good you see I believe in democracy not dictatorship like we have with the EU. You know what our fathers and forefathers fought for over 2 world wars. Just to be free to decide our own laws and future direction. To be able to vote in our out those we wish. You know all those kind of things which have been and are being eroded and taken away from us, :wink:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> By the same token, are you not denying those who think different to you, the right to enjoy that same democracy?
Click to expand...

Am denying nothing to anybody unlike the corrupt unelected bureaucrats in the EU. At least we get a vote that labour would have denied us . However, the country will be scared into voting stay and stay we will remain of which I am sure but there will be millions who want out and vote so. Whichever a large portion of the population will be disappointed in one way or another. I wouldn't put dodgy Dave and this government to rig it.

Now holidays to the EU will be much more expensive, what next. I am just waiting for the killer one, you know the one that says your benefits (which I am not on, I get a pension which is a right having worked all my life, well since I was 17) will, sorry may be cut. However, maybe they are waiting for a few days before the election to spring that one on us as they must be running out of terror talk.


----------



## les

What will be interesting to see is how the voting goes region by region. Will the majority in the affluent south vote to stay and will the less prosperous NW, NE and Midlands etc vote to leave. This government keeps the south sweet with more of our money spent of education and health per head than the other less off regions. Only time will tell.


----------



## rustyintegrale

les said:


> What will be interesting to see is how the voting goes region by region. Will the majority in the affluent south vote to stay and will the less prosperous NW, NE and Midlands etc vote to leave. This government keeps the south sweet with more of our money spent of education and health per head than the other less off regions. Only time will tell.


You really like to perpetuate this north/south divide thing don't you?

It costs more to live down here, our roads are more crowded, our towns and villages more densely populated, we have more recent immigrants than anywhere else and public services across the board are stretched.

So if it is so affluent, so much better financed and educated, why don't you move down here? It's obviously such a highly desirable part of the country to live...


----------



## les

rustyintegrale said:


> les said:
> 
> 
> 
> What will be interesting to see is how the voting goes region by region. Will the majority in the affluent south vote to stay and will the less prosperous NW, NE and Midlands etc vote to leave. This government keeps the south sweet with more of our money spent of education and health per head than the other less off regions. Only time will tell.
> 
> 
> 
> You really like to perpetuate this north/south divide thing don't you?
> 
> It costs more to live down here, our roads are more crowded, our towns and villages more densely populated, we have more recent immigrants than anywhere else and public services across the board are stretched.
> 
> So if it is so affluent, so much better financed and educated, why don't you move down here? It's obviously such a highly desirable part of the country to live...
Click to expand...

Ha and so do you and head for head it's a fact the south does get more money to spend on Education and health. I never created the north South divide successive governments have. I was born here and will die here come what may, unlike many in the south hey :wink:


----------



## Spandex

les said:


> The cost of living in Australia is also a lot higher than the UK but then so are the wages. Of course the cost of living in Norway is extortionate that's why the people of Norway twice voted not to join the EU so they could be worse off than if they where to become members. I think not. I don't see Norway rushing to have a 3rd vote to join the EU the country's I see wanting to join it are those very poor ones starting with Turkey along with another 7 poor countries.


You're missing the point. I'm not trying to claim that Norway would instantly be better off were they to join the EU - I'm saying that there is no point simply selectively listing only the good things about <insert non-EU country here> and then speciously trying to claim that all these good things are either a result of not being in the EU, or are possible for a country which leaves the EU.

There are a number of areas where we might benefit from leaving the EU and there are a number of areas where we might lose out - Having given some consideration to these I would like us to stay. What really *really* doesn't help the debate is nonsense claims, imaginary data and incomplete or irrelevant comparisons that are intentionally designed to mislead people. If you can't make your point using genuine, independent data, presented unedited and without removing information that might harm your case, then maybe you need to consider the possibility that you don't have a point after all.

I asked before but you may have missed it - can you list the areas where you think remaining in the EU would be beneficial to us?


----------



## Spandex

les said:


> I was born here and will die here come what may, unlike many in the south hey :wink:


Don't worry - like a salmon, Rusty can return to his place of birth before he dies, just so he can croak it with the same smug sense of self-satisfaction you'll have when you go.

As I'm on the way out, I plan to creep into the maternity ward of the hospital I was born in, so that when I die I can lord it over all the Southern chumps who are pushing up the daisies on foreign soil...


----------



## les

Spandex said:


> les said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was born here and will die here come what may, unlike many in the south hey :wink:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't worry - like a salmon, Rusty can return to his place of birth before he dies, just so he can croak it with the same smug sense of self-satisfaction you'll have when you go.
> 
> As I'm on the way out, I plan to creep into the maternity ward of the hospital I was born in, so that when I die I can lord it over all the Southern chumps who are pushing up the daisies on foreign soil...
Click to expand...

I could like freedom of movement of employment within the EU but that wouldn't stop us working in other countries within the EU. However you seem to forget my post so I will copy and paste it here to remind you as I have no wish to continue debate with somebody I consider abusive to my/our generation thanks.

Quote "Yes there is but I am.not going to be reduced to your insulting level. I have lived trough the before and during and I don't care for the during. On that basis my experience and the history gives me and many of my generation something tangible rather than hearsay for which many others rely on. Now if you want to throw insults at the older generation then do so where your manner is better appreciated. You seem to forget there are many older people in office and backing remain."

On that basis I think it best I don't lower myself or take you on and subject myself to more of the same. Thank's.


----------



## rustyintegrale

les said:


> I was born here and will die here come what may...


Your choice Les and I respect your right to it. But doesn't that statement demonstrate an ingrained reluctance to change - any change?

I reckon if remaining in the EU guaranteed you a triple-sized pension you'd still vote to leave...


----------



## Spandex

les said:


> Quote "Yes there is but I am.not going to be reduced to your insulting level. I have lived trough the before and during and I don't care for the during. On that basis my experience and the history gives me and many of my generation something tangible rather than hearsay for which many others rely on. Now if you want to throw insults at the older generation then do so where your manner is better appreciated. You seem to forget there are many older people in office and backing remain."
> 
> On that basis I think it best I don't lower myself or take you on and subject myself to more of the same. Thank's.


But you've replied to various other posts of mine since, so you're not generally concerned about 'lowering yourself' to talk to me.. Why is this particular question one you can't risk answering??


----------



## Shug750S

rustyintegrale said:


> les said:
> 
> 
> 
> What will be interesting to see is how the voting goes region by region. Will the majority in the affluent south vote to stay and will the less prosperous NW, NE and Midlands etc vote to leave. This government keeps the south sweet with more of our money spent of education and health per head than the other less off regions. Only time will tell.
> 
> 
> 
> You really like to perpetuate this north/south divide thing don't you?
> 
> It costs more to live down here, our roads are more crowded, our towns and villages more densely populated, we have more recent immigrants than anywhere else and public services across the board are stretched.
> 
> So if it is so affluent, so much better financed and educated, why don't you move down here? It's obviously such a highly desirable part of the country to live...
Click to expand...

+1 on above. The south is always seen as affluent, but the difference in salaries (even assuming there is one) is more than swallowed up with housing costs, not to mention the more congested roads etc. Most people I work with have a 2-3 hour daily commute (overall). Everyone I know elsewhere in the UK takes about 30 mins max to get to work.
Currently helping both my kids buy their first properties, and my daughter, a secondary school maths teacher, is seriously considering moving as her salary will be about the same but properties less than 50% of the cost round here, so a mortgage is actually achievable.

Norway is not a great example of a 'similar' country to the UK. They are a much smaller country (5m people vs 60m overall, and less than just the population of London) who had a massive oil revenue boom and invested it wisely to give them a buffer for the bad times.


----------



## les

Spandex said:


> les said:
> 
> 
> 
> Quote "Yes there is but I am.not going to be reduced to your insulting level. I have lived trough the before and during and I don't care for the during. On that basis my experience and the history gives me and many of my generation something tangible rather than hearsay for which many others rely on. Now if you want to throw insults at the older generation then do so where your manner is better appreciated. You seem to forget there are many older people in office and backing remain."
> 
> On that basis I think it best I don't lower myself or take you on and subject myself to more of the same. Thank's.
> 
> 
> 
> But you've replied to various other posts of mine since, so you're not generally concerned about 'lowering yourself' to talk to me.. Why is this particular question one you can't risk answering??
Click to expand...

You have my answer.


----------



## les

rustyintegrale said:


> les said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was born here and will die here come what may...
> 
> 
> 
> Your choice Les and I respect your right to it. But doesn't that statement demonstrate an ingrained reluctance to change - any change?
Click to expand...

Not at all as come what may change will happen in or out.



rustyintegrale said:


> I reckon if remaining in the EU guaranteed you a triple-sized pension you'd still vote to leave...


Yes, you are right, you see I am voting leave not for myself but for my grandchildren's future. There is more to my life than money and my time on this earth is limited and they have no vote. I could be somewhat selfish and not vote at all of course but as I firmly believe in the long run we would be better out of the EU and having grandchildren then I will vote the way I believe will be best for them not what is best for me. I understand however many will vote for how they see it benefitting them. I would urge all those of the older generation not to vote for what they believe is best for them but what they believe is best for the country and the generations to come. Of course there are arguments for both sides with claims and counter claims and i could simply not vote at all but in this case that is not an option.


----------



## Spandex

les said:


> You have my answer.


So your answer is that you won't answer. I can't say I'm surprised.


----------



## rustyintegrale

les said:


> rustyintegrale said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> les said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was born here and will die here come what may...
> 
> 
> 
> Your choice Les and I respect your right to it. But doesn't that statement demonstrate an ingrained reluctance to change - any change?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not at all as come what may change will happen in or out.
> 
> 
> 
> rustyintegrale said:
> 
> 
> 
> I reckon if remaining in the EU guaranteed you a triple-sized pension you'd still vote to leave...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes, you are right, you see I am voting leave not for myself but for my grandchildren's future. There is more to my life than money and my time on this earth is limited and they have no vote. I could be somewhat selfish and not vote at all of course but as I firmly believe in the long run we would be better out of the EU and having grandchildren then I will vote the way I believe will be best for them not what is best for me. I understand however many will vote for how they see it benefitting them. I would urge all those of the older generation not to vote for what they believe is best for them but what they believe is best for the country and the generations to come. Of course there are arguments for both sides with claims and counter claims and i could simply not vote at all but in this case that is not an option.
Click to expand...

I think most with any brain will be voting for what *they* see as best for whatever *they* feel is important. Speaking personally I'll be voting for what *I* believe is the best future for Britain and *all* its citizens. And that *is* a future within the European Union.


----------



## les

rustyintegrale said:


> Speaking personally I'll be voting for what *I* believe is the best future for Britain and *all* its citizens.


Fair enough and IMO that's the way everybody should vote by not being selfish and the way I look at it. I fully expect the voting to go remain but that does not mean I should not add my vote along with millions of others to leave and you never know it might just go against the way I expect it to go.


----------



## Dash

Spandex, is of course correct with regards to Norway. Their net payments to the EU they are not a member of are higher than the UKs, despite the UK GDP being higher individually. Whilst we pay more gross into the pot, as we're members, we also get our cut back from the pot. This means in real-terms, we're paying less than Norway to the EU for being a member.

If you chose to ignore that you can, but please don't go and vote if you insist on skirting round the facts and relying on unfounded headlines and alarmist infographics.


----------



## les

Dash said:


> Spandex, is of course correct with regards to Norway. Their net payments to the EU they are not a member of are higher than the UKs, despite the UK GDP being higher individually. Whilst we pay more gross into the pot, as we're members, we also get our cut back from the pot. This means in real-terms, we're paying less than Norway to the EU for being a member.
> 
> If you chose to ignore that you can, but please don't go and vote if you insist on skirting round the facts and relying on unfounded headlines and alarmist infographics.


That's very simplistic and there is far more to it than that like the % of imports and exports and not just within EU countries. China and other non EU counties alook need to be considered with regards to imports and what the % are between each.


----------



## Toshiba

les said:


> The cost of living in Australia is also a lot higher than the UK but then so are the wages. Of course the cost of living in Norway is extortionate that's why the people of Norway twice voted not to join the EU so they could be worse off than if they where to become members. I think not. I don't see Norway rushing to have a 3rd vote to join the EU the country's I see wanting to join it are those very poor ones starting with Turkey along with another 7 poor countries.


Who says the COL is higher in OZ?
You would need around £4,561.91 (9,280.99A$) in London to maintain the same standard of life that you can have with 6,000.00A$ in Melbourne (assuming you rent in both cities). This calculation uses our Cost of Living Plus Rent Index to compare cost of living. This assumes net earnings (after income tax).

Indices Difference
Consumer Prices in London are 27.58% higher than in Melbourne
Consumer Prices Including Rent in London are 54.68% higher than in Melbourne
Rent Prices in London are 108.82% higher than in Melbourne
Restaurant Prices in London are 45.55% higher than in Melbourne
Groceries Prices in London are 1.06% higher than in Melbourne
Local Purchasing Power in London is 39.07% lower than in Melbourne


----------



## les

Toshiba said:


> les said:
> 
> 
> 
> The cost of living in Australia is also a lot higher than the UK but then so are the wages. Of course the cost of living in Norway is extortionate that's why the people of Norway twice voted not to join the EU so they could be worse off than if they where to become members. I think not. I don't see Norway rushing to have a 3rd vote to join the EU the country's I see wanting to join it are those very poor ones starting with Turkey along with another 7 poor countries.
> 
> 
> 
> Who says the COL is higher in OZ?
> You would need around £4,561.91 (9,280.99A$) in London to maintain the same standard of life that you can have with 6,000.00A$ in Melbourne (assuming you rent in both cities). This calculation uses our Cost of Living Plus Rent Index to compare cost of living. This assumes net earnings (after income tax).
> 
> Indices Difference
> Consumer Prices in London are 27.58% higher than in Melbourne
> Consumer Prices Including Rent in London are 54.68% higher than in Melbourne
> Rent Prices in London are 108.82% higher than in Melbourne
> Restaurant Prices in London are 45.55% higher than in Melbourne
> Groceries Prices in London are 1.06% higher than in Melbourne
> Local Purchasing Power in London is 39.07% lower than in Melbourne
Click to expand...

Melbourne is not THE capital city of Oz why not compare like for like with the likes of Melbourne with Manchester. BTW my daughter lives in Mebourne so I have a good idea what goods and rents cost.


----------



## rustyintegrale

les said:


> Toshiba said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> les said:
> 
> 
> 
> The cost of living in Australia is also a lot higher than the UK but then so are the wages. Of course the cost of living in Norway is extortionate that's why the people of Norway twice voted not to join the EU so they could be worse off than if they where to become members. I think not. I don't see Norway rushing to have a 3rd vote to join the EU the country's I see wanting to join it are those very poor ones starting with Turkey along with another 7 poor countries.
> 
> 
> 
> Who says the COL is higher in OZ?
> You would need around £4,561.91 (9,280.99A$) in London to maintain the same standard of life that you can have with 6,000.00A$ in Melbourne (assuming you rent in both cities). This calculation uses our Cost of Living Plus Rent Index to compare cost of living. This assumes net earnings (after income tax).
> 
> Indices Difference
> Consumer Prices in London are 27.58% higher than in Melbourne
> Consumer Prices Including Rent in London are 54.68% higher than in Melbourne
> Rent Prices in London are 108.82% higher than in Melbourne
> Restaurant Prices in London are 45.55% higher than in Melbourne
> Groceries Prices in London are 1.06% higher than in Melbourne
> Local Purchasing Power in London is 39.07% lower than in Melbourne
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Melborne is not THE capital city of Oz why not compare like for like with the lkies of Melborne with Manchester
Click to expand...

But the capital of Oz is Canberra. Not really a fair comparison with London either.


----------



## les

Who says the COL is higher in OZ?
You would need around £4,561.91 (9,280.99A$) in London to maintain the same standard of life that you can have with 6,000.00A$ in Melbourne (assuming you rent in both cities). This calculation uses our Cost of Living Plus Rent Index to compare cost of living. This assumes net earnings (after income tax).

Indices Difference
Consumer Prices in London are 27.58% higher than in Melbourne
Consumer Prices Including Rent in London are 54.68% higher than in Melbourne
Rent Prices in London are 108.82% higher than in Melbourne
Restaurant Prices in London are 45.55% higher than in Melbourne
Groceries Prices in London are 1.06% higher than in Melbourne
Local Purchasing Power in London is 39.07% lower than in Melbourne[/quote]

Melborne is not THE capital city of Oz why not compare like for like with the lkies of Melborne with Manchester[/quote]

But the capital of Oz is Canberra. Not really a fair comparison with London either.[/quote]

We Were typing similar at the same time


----------



## John-H

les said:


> ... the corrupt unelected bureaucrats in the EU. ...


You and others keep saying this Les - like a mantra with the intention that if repeated often enough people will believe it - that the EU has no democracy but is a dictatorship. This is complete clap trap.

I keep on pointing out that our civil service and judiciary are also unelected. You don't seen to think that's bad so why do you think the EU's equivalent is different?

Is it who makes law? As I've also pointed out this is treaty agreement between democratically elected EU member states. There are also the democratically elected by PR MEPs in the European parliament.

How can you claim this is undemocratic?

Did you vote for your MEP?



les said:


> ... you see I am voting leave not for myself but for my grandchildren's future. There is more to my life than money and my time on this earth is limited and they have no vote. I could be somewhat selfish and not vote at all of course but as I firmly believe in the long run we would be better out of the EU and having grandchildren then I will vote the way I believe will be best for them not what is best for me. I understand however many will vote for how they see it benefitting them. I would urge all those of the older generation not to vote for what they believe is best for them but what they believe is best for the country and the generations to come. ...


Of course everyone should vote as they think best. It shouldn't be inferred however that voting to stay is selfish and voting to leave is motivated by thinking of the next generation. Far from it. It could well be the other way round. I truly believe if we vote leave it will be be bad news and that the country as a whole will be better off by staying. I feel sorry for the younger generation if they end up being dictated to by an older generation harping back to the days of empire. I only hope my daughter and her generation manage to get it together to register to vote.


----------



## les

John-H said:


> les said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... the corrupt unelected bureaucrats in the EU. ...
> 
> 
> 
> I keep on pointing out that our civil service and judiciary are also unelected. You don't seen to think that's bad so why do you think the EU's equivalent is different?
Click to expand...

Yes you do and I have to point out it's not those bodies who make our laws can't you see the difference our government and the EU make our laws not the unelected bodies you put forward.

http://www.parliament.uk/education/abou ... -are-made/


----------



## Shug750S

Toshiba said:


> les said:
> 
> 
> 
> The cost of living in Australia is also a lot higher than the UK but then so are the wages. Of course the cost of living in Norway is extortionate that's why the people of Norway twice voted not to join the EU so they could be worse off than if they where to become members. I think not. I don't see Norway rushing to have a 3rd vote to join the EU the country's I see wanting to join it are those very poor ones starting with Turkey along with another 7 poor countries.
> 
> 
> 
> Who says the COL is higher in OZ?
> You would need around £4,561.91 (9,280.99A$) in London to maintain the same standard of life that you can have with 6,000.00A$ in Melbourne (assuming you rent in both cities). This calculation uses our Cost of Living Plus Rent Index to compare cost of living. This assumes net earnings (after income tax).
> 
> Indices Difference
> Consumer Prices in London are 27.58% higher than in Melbourne
> Consumer Prices Including Rent in London are 54.68% higher than in Melbourne
> Rent Prices in London are 108.82% higher than in Melbourne
> Restaurant Prices in London are 45.55% higher than in Melbourne
> Groceries Prices in London are 1.06% higher than in Melbourne
> Local Purchasing Power in London is 39.07% lower than in Melbourne
Click to expand...

I have no idea on the official figures quoted here, but when in Oz last year everything was damned expensive. Beer was around £6-7 a pint, a pizza was about 30% higher than my local pizza express, car hire was about double the cost here, hotels about 50% higher etc. And that was all over, Sydney, Brisbane, Melourne and smaller towns.

When people from our Oz office come over here they stack up on everything and reckon it's really cheap.


----------



## Dash

les said:


> Dash said:
> 
> 
> 
> Spandex, is of course correct with regards to Norway. Their net payments to the EU they are not a member of are higher than the UKs, despite the UK GDP being higher individually. Whilst we pay more gross into the pot, as we're members, we also get our cut back from the pot. This means in real-terms, we're paying less than Norway to the EU for being a member.
> 
> If you chose to ignore that you can, but please don't go and vote if you insist on skirting round the facts and relying on unfounded headlines and alarmist infographics.
> 
> 
> 
> That's very simplistic and there is far more to it than that like the % of imports and exports and not just within EU countries. China and other non EU counties alook need to be considered with regards to imports and what the % are between each.
Click to expand...

Er... I made no reference to imports and exports. This is simply money being paid into EU's pot - Norway has to pay to trade with the EU in the same way we currently do, just we have a say in treaties, they don't. We get benefits returned to us in terms of grants and funding for farming, science, education, etc. Norway don't, as they're not a member of the EU. So we end up paying LESS than Norway to the EU in real terms BECAUSE we're members.


----------



## Spandex

Shug750S said:


> I have no idea on the official figures quoted here, but when in Oz last year everything was damned expensive. Beer was around £6-7 a pint, a pizza was about 30% higher than my local pizza express, car hire was about double the cost here, hotels about 50% higher etc. And that was all over, Sydney, Brisbane, Melourne and smaller towns.
> 
> When people from our Oz office come over here they stack up on everything and reckon it's really cheap.


The full official (I think) figures are here, if you want to see per city:
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/rankings.jsp

It varies from city to city but giving it a rough eyeball I'd say the UK is fairly similar to Australia in terms of cost of living. Purchasing power seems slightly higher in Australia, but the ranges overlap a great deal so it's not a huge difference.

Interestingly, to address the earlier discussion about the north-south divide, UK purchasing power does seem greater in the north (from the Midlands up, really), which implies the high comparative cost of living in the South isn't completely offset by the higher wages.


----------



## John-H

les said:


> John-H said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> les said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... the corrupt unelected bureaucrats in the EU. ...
> 
> 
> 
> I keep on pointing out that our civil service and judiciary are also unelected. You don't seen to think that's bad so why do you think the EU's equivalent is different?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes you do and I have to point out it's not those bodies who make our laws can't you see the difference our government and the EU make our laws not the unelected bodies you put forward.
> 
> http://www.parliament.uk/education/abou ... -are-made/
Click to expand...

Huh? What? [smiley=dizzy2.gif]

No, what I'm saying is that in both examples (EU and UK) the laws are decided by democratically elected elements (EU the elected member state governments agreeing treaties and elected EU parliament - UK our elected parliament). Both have a civil service and judiciary which are unelected and do the donkey work drafting and amending law under instruction and interpreting the will of parliament in judgement. When you refer to "unelected bureaucrats" the only plausible match is the EU civil service which is the equivalent of our own. The rest is democratically elected, either member state governments at the treaty stage or MEPs. So it's wrong to say that the EU is "unelected" and "undemocratic" - quite the contrary in fact.

Did you vote for your MEP?


----------



## les

Time to lighten it up a little.


----------



## Spaceman10

Lol great video les lol


----------



## rustyintegrale

les said:


> Time to lighten it up a little.


Reminds me of this one I made a few years ago...


----------



## leopard

John-H said:


> Huh? What? [smiley=dizzy2.gif]
> 
> No, what I'm saying is that in both examples (EU and UK) the laws are decided by democratically elected elements (EU the elected member state governments agreeing treaties and elected EU parliament - UK our elected parliament). Both have a civil service and judiciary which are unelected and do the donkey work drafting and amending law under instruction and interpreting the will of parliament in judgement. When you refer to "unelected bureaucrats" the only plausible match is the EU civil service which is the equivalent of our own. The rest is democratically elected, either member state governments at the treaty stage or MEPs. So it's wrong to say that the EU is "unelected" and "undemocratic" - quite the contrary in fact.
> 
> Did you vote for your MEP?


The way I look at it is although the EU is a democracy,it's a democracy within a democracy and every state is looking after their own nations interest as Cameron has set out to do with borders and the four year working rule for outsiders.99% of the EU has been unelected by Britain apart from its own members.

If the majority don't like something about a country's proposed policy then it doesn't get through as Cameron again has found out.The net result is compromise,very frustrating and seen to be undemocratic if it goes against a nation's wishes.


----------



## Spandex

It's a question of scale. Ultimately it's no different to what we accept as democracy in the UK - in a general election I can only vote for my local MP and beyond my small ability to influence that one seat in parliament, I have no say in who runs the country or what decisions/laws are made by the government. Because even in the event the person I voted for becomes an MP, there is no guarantee his or her party will be forming the government and even if their party did win, there's no guarantee my MP will be able to (or even consistently want to) influence parliamentary votes in a way that serves my personal interest. That is the nature of democracy on a national scale, and on a European scale it is no different. To claim the EU is undemocratic is to completely misunderstand what democracy actually means. It's a shame really, because there are real underlying issues regarding the limits of the Unions democratic authority and where the lines should be drawn to best serve us and our partners in the Union - but these won't get discussed while there are people masking the issues by perpetuating the 'undemocratic' myth.

That being said, EU law is rarely invoked in national courts, so whilst the fact that EU law 'should' trump national laws is a legitimate concern for some people, it's so infrequently enforced that it would be difficult to use this as a powerful reason to leave the EU. In fact, and bizarrely, Norway has a better record of implementing EU laws than any actual EU country.


----------



## leopard

Perhaps this is where democracy falls down.If doesn't address the " majority few "


----------



## Spandex

leopard said:


> Perhaps this is where democracy falls down.If doesn't address the " majority few "


Well, I think 'falls down' is implying a point of failure which actually doesn't exist. The larger the voting base, the less weight an individual vote carries, but there isn't a point where the principle suddenly stops working - in fact the principle will continue to work regardless of scale - the issue becomes one of perception. Which explains why some people are so quick to believe that the EU is undemocratic - they don't feel engaged with the democratic process.

To be honest, I think if people really thought about how democracy works at a national level they would probably feel similarly disengaged. It's probably fortunate that most people genuinely (but mistakenly) feel that they're voting for a particular Prime Minister rather than a local MP, because it fools them into feeling a greater sense of agency than they really should. Look at the outrage that surrounded Gordon Brown becoming Prime Minister, where a large portion of the population (including people who had voted Labour into power) complained that it was undemocratic because they weren't asked to vote on the new PM.


----------



## Spaceman10

I see Mr Trump is still running high


----------



## les

I see the immigration figures continue to rise despite Camerons promises going back years which is a good thing of course as we need more minimum wage earners along with no hour contracts. Now perhaps those lower wage earnings and contracts can work their way up to the middle and higher wage earners in this country to really cut the wage bills of companies. While they are at it how about cutting private pensions like what is being proposed with the steel workers to help save their jobs and back date it to those retired who already enjoy their index linked level of pensions. All good stuff and you can't blame the EU or Cameron for any of that..... or can you?


----------



## les

Spaceman10 said:


> I see Mr Trump is still running high


Must be all the methane in him then John.


----------



## Spandex

les said:


> I see the immigration figures continue to rise despite Camerons promises going back years which is a good thing of course as we need more minimum wage earners along with no hour contracts. Now perhaps those lower wage earnings and contracts can work their way up to the middle and higher wage earners in this country to really cut the wage bills of companies. While they are at it how about cutting private pensions like what is being proposed with the steel workers to help save their jobs and back date it to those retired who already enjoy their index linked level of pensions. All good stuff and you can't blame the EU or Cameron for any of that..... or can you?


Well, half the migrants were from outside the EU, so we can't blame the EU for all of it. We can certainly blame Cameron for breaking promises he made to get in power, including immigration levels, financial targets, etc.

I see you've decided the immigrants are all minimum wage earners though... No prejudices there, hey?


----------



## bobclive22

You still don`t get it, it`s all about the numbers and the skills required, NO skills no enter. You only let in the skills you require in the numbers you require, try the US. UK guy started business 10 years ago, he employed Us staff and ran a successful business but could not obtain a green card because he did not have the skills the US required. The financial recession came business closed and he was given weeks to leave or be thrown out. Not saying do that here but that`s how the US control immigration. We can`t get rid of terrorists, murders or rapists because of the European convention of human rights, vote out.

https://www.britainfirst.org/scrap-the- ... ights-act/


----------



## les

Spandex said:


> I see you've decided the immigrants are all minimum wage earners though... No prejudices there, hey?


No I haven't your just jumping to conclusions ....again.. no change there then


----------



## Spandex

les said:


> Spandex said:
> 
> 
> 
> I see you've decided the immigrants are all minimum wage earners though... No prejudices there, hey?
> 
> 
> 
> No I haven't your just jumping to conclusions ....again.. no change there then
Click to expand...

You do realise people can just go back and read what you wrote? It's a bit pointless trying to pretend I jumped to a conclusion when it's right up there in your post.


----------



## bobclive22

Since when has fishing been the backbone of the UK economy? Anyway, the fisheries policy is about fairness and critically about ensuring sustainability of stocks.

Stocks were in major decline before the fisheries policy, which frankly hasn't gone far enough. Without it trawlers would put themselves out of business sooner.

You don`t think it had anything to do with the Russian factory ships or perhaps climate change.

Climate change and fish

Our oceans and fish stocks are under threat from rising water temperatures.
A 2015 study from *WWF* finds that climate change is one of the main reasons for the decline of marine species in the last 30 years.

So if you believe these lying tow rags fisherman lost their livelihood for nothing, it`s that evil CO2, the stuff they pump into commercial greenhouses at 1200ppm, plants love it and produce 40% more yield at that level. The brainless twits in the EU are trying to replace CO2 with NOX. vote out.


----------



## les

Spandex said:


> les said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spandex said:
> 
> 
> 
> I see you've decided the immigrants are all minimum wage earners though... No prejudices there, hey?
> 
> 
> 
> No I haven't your just jumping to conclusions ....again.. no change there then
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You do realise people can just go back and read what you wrote? It's a bit pointless trying to pretend I jumped to a conclusion when it's right up there in your post.
Click to expand...

No issues with people doing jobs like nurses or doctors enginners etc. God knows why I am even bothering to reply to you after your abusive posts. In fact I best just ignore you from now on. Bye.


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> You still don`t get it, it`s all about the numbers and the skills required, NO skills no enter. You only let in the skills you require in the numbers you require, try the US. UK guy started business 10 years ago, he employed Us staff and ran a successful business but could not obtain a green card because he did not have the skills the US required. The financial recession came business closed and he was given weeks to leave or be thrown out. Not saying do that here but that`s how the US control immigration. We can`t get rid of terrorists, murders or rapists because of the European convention of human rights, vote out.
> 
> https://www.britainfirst.org/scrap-the- ... ights-act/


I'm not sure what you think I 'don't get'. I've not really commented on immigration policies, other that to point out poor interpretation of statistics. I also don't think it's the root of all evil so I can't get particularly worked up about it when there are much bigger issues facing this country, mostly caused by our hopeless government (three cheers for democracy!).

We get rid of loads of foreign criminals - it is only a very small minority that successfully appeal deportation and not all of these will rely on ECHR rulings in order to stay. But the press sells papers and page views using fear and controversy, so they don't report the successful deportations or failed appeals.


----------



## Spandex

les said:


> No issues with people doing jobs like nurses or doctors enginners etc. God knows why I am even bothering to reply to you after your abusive posts. In fact I best just ignore you from now on. Bye.


No, I'm sure you don't have issues with people doing skilled jobs, but you still equated the rise in immigration with low paid workers and zero hours contracts.

Abuse? You should report my abusive post to a moderator. Maybe let me know when you find it too?


----------



## Trouble4

Spandex said:


> les said:
> 
> 
> 
> No issues with people doing jobs like nurses or doctors enginners etc. God knows why I am even bothering to reply to you after your abusive posts. In fact I best just ignore you from now on. Bye.
> 
> 
> 
> No, I'm sure you don't have issues with people doing skilled jobs, but you still equated the rise in immigration with low paid workers and zero hours contracts.
> 
> Abuse? You should report my abusive post to a moderator. Maybe let me know when you find it too?
Click to expand...

this is a very small taste of what professional politicians / negotiators go through and we like each other  and they generally do not like one another.........

about only one thing the vast majority agree upon is no individual should have a atomic bomb (usable one) hanging around....

but it is all good as at least those that have tuned in to this or added thought to it are interested enough / care enough and that is always a positive sign


----------



## rustyintegrale

Every year the UK government expects me to file an accurate tax return detailing my income and expenditure to the nearest penny. I am fined if I fail to do this.

On that basis would it be unreasonable to expect the Treasury to be able to tell us exactly what the UK pays into EU and what we get back? We do not appear to have definitive figures but we do have a Brexit bus where the claimed £350 million per day funding of the EU by the UK is slated as incorrect by the other side.

How the hell are we as voters, required to make a potentially life-changing decision, supposed to make an educated choice without certified facts?

This is one reason why I do not trust UK politics. Politicians are so used to massaging figures and statistics to suit their own aims, that they feel free to continue to misinform us to get a vote going their way in Europe.

At the very least it is disrespectful to UK citizens. It is also deceitful, fraudulent but apparently not illegal to supply facts and figures that are wholly or partially untrue.

This is grossly unfair and if true, makes the whole exercise immoral and pointless. I think I may just not vote at all.


----------



## Dash

Money coming in from the EU doesn't go directly to the government. Whilst the government pays into the EU pot, a lot of it comes back as funding directly for various groups. Scientific, farming, a large amount of charitable funding. This isn't accounted for again by the government.

But I posted a link further back, I think to Facebook, which does give some headline figures of what we get back directly.


----------



## rustyintegrale

Dash said:


> Money coming in from the EU doesn't go directly to the government. Whilst the government pays into the EU pot, a lot of it comes back as funding directly for various groups. Scientific, farming, a large amount of charitable funding. This isn't accounted for again by the government.
> 
> But I posted a link further back, I think to Facebook, which does give some headline figures of what we get back directly.


Thank you sir, the back-funding was actually pretty well covered by Charlie Stayt on the Breakfast News the other day. But I find it particularly galling that we are just not being given cold, hard facts.

Vagueness, dishonesty, massaging of figures, glossing of truths, deflections and downright lies are inflammatory, damaging, non-productive and ultimately pointless and unrepresentative. In other words a waste of time and money and a betrayal of the UK - be it in or out of the EU.


----------



## 3TT3

On the paying in/paying out bit .
I dont think there is any real dispute on the direct pay in.. 20 billion approx and 12 billion back.
In other words UK pays 8 billion pa to EU in direct cash.
Why dont they just cut out the 20 bill and 12 bill back and you guys just pay 8 bill?
Something to do with the hokey cokey mechanisms.
"Put your left leg in and shake it all about"  I suppose its ,like income tax returns, expenses how "structurally developed " a particular member state is and euro civil service employees.
We in Ireland used to be net beneficiaries ..Like 1 billion in 2 billion back or whatever. 
We only started getting "uppity" and rejecting treaties when we got to the 1.5 billion in and only 1 billion back point :lol:

The UK has allways paid more than it gets back. The arguments on that
leave europe.. then we got 8 bill to spend on ourselves
Stay in europe and the extra UK pays in goes where it allways has in structural funds for new members,equalising farm incomes, pament for EU employees etc.Then when they get up to speed UK will sort of get the cash back thru increased trade ,with countries who are now better developed and a stronger europe etc.

You decide

I do watch UK news from time to time 
Maybe twice a week . 
I saw it yday.

Immigration  There was a time when placards were up for UK job vacancies , which read "No Irish or (mm I forget the exact word but it was a former BE country) need apply !
This was back in the 50's or something and I never found anything even remotely like that in the UK when I was there working for awhile . 
There are quite a lot of people from further east in Europe over here now(Ireland) and yeh most are like you n me but there are lets be honest some spongers.. 
We have plenty of our own indigenous spongers already thx v much 
A simple thing on that is ,lets say eu guy x with a family comes here to work or whatever and leaves the kids at home, then the child allowance here is now paid to the kids at home .ie if the home country has a child allowance of 2 euro and a potato costs 1c  and here its 10 euro and a potato costs 5c ,the kids get a lot more potatoes for their 10 euro :lol:

"Are there no workhouses? " Ebeneezer Scrooge

The immigration crisis is a lot worse now with refugees from war zones..Youre not really allowed to suggest, there could be purely economic migrants much.Where are the folks gonna go?
For example the Irish navy.. yes there is one  has a rescue ship patrolling the med for the floundering refugee/migrant boats and has rescued quite a few.

They pick them up and drop them off in Sicily or wherever.All v good/humanitarian etc but imho They should take the full rescue responsibilities.
Dont just drop em off in Sicily and hurrah another job well done!. Document them as best they can , as Irish immigrants(hah that could mean they think they can go anywhere in the world , no I mean as immigrants to Ireland. .Arrange transport from Sicily to Ireland and then have the folks in Ireland do the leg work accomodation ,settling etc.

Obviously the British navy couldnt do anything like that cos youd get every refugee/migrant that was going, but still, if gonna rescue the folks, do it properly.

Sorry wandered off a bit there


----------



## Spandex

The public 'debate' has become a bit of a farce really. One side will make wildly over-inflated claims, then when the other side easily demonstrates that the claim was over-inflated they incorrectly use this as evidence that everything about the claim must be false. All this back and forth leaves people feeling that they've learned something, but really they've not been given any actual information at all.

I dont think politicians really trust the public with genuine information because that would leave us to make our own decision and they can't risk that - instead they (and the press - more on that later) give us drama and shock and outrage. If you can make people experience a strong emotional response, they are less likely to think critically about the information you give them.

As for the press, ever wondered why the main newspapers are generally against the EU? Maybe if you're a Leave supporter you just assume they're 'telling it like it is'? But the reality is that the vast majority of UK newspapers are owned by 5 right-wing billionaires, all of whom have a vested interest in the UK leaving the EU so they can carry on avoiding paying tax and so they can enjoy the benefits of all that deregulation.


----------



## rustyintegrale

Spandex said:


> If you can make people experience a strong emotional response, they are less likely to think critically about the information you give them.


That statement should be permanently displayed like a health warning on any TV broadcast, press advertisement, campaign leaflet, t-shirt or badge relating to this referendum. It is what will ultimately decide this vote and that is wholly ridiculous.

It should also be permanently printed on the masthead of the Daily Mail... :lol:


----------



## Dash

I used to be for freedom of the press. I'm not for freedom from the press.


----------



## bobclive22

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05 ... om-voters/

Now why would they do that, and Germany is all for it, what a surprise.


----------



## John-H

I think Spandex already covered that...



Spandex said:


> ... As for the press, ever wondered why the main newspapers are generally against the EU? Maybe if you're a Leave supporter you just assume they're 'telling it like it is'? But the reality is that the vast majority of UK newspapers are owned by 5 right-wing billionaires, all of whom have a vested interest in the UK leaving the EU so they can carry on avoiding paying tax and so they can enjoy the benefits of all that deregulation.


----------



## bobclive22

So you want a press like Turkey then.

Native English speakers cannot get jobs at one of Britain's leading high street giants, a Labour MP has claimed.

John Mann, the MP for Bassetlaw in Nottinghamshire, called for an urgent investigation into the sportswear chain Sports Direct's warehouse, *known locally as 'the gulag*'.

British workers living in his constituency near Sports Direct's 800,000 square foot Shirebrook warehouse were snubbed for jobs at the Derbyshire site, he said.

'Everyone in our area knows you can't get a job in the warehouse at Sports Direct if you are an English native speaker despite 3,000 people working there,' Mr Mann told MPs.


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> So you want a press like Turkey then.


Yes. Yes that's what we all want. Because anyone who doesn't want the biased UK press must want Turkeys press instead.

Sigh...


----------



## Dash




----------



## Shug750S

bobclive22 said:


> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/26/plans-to-create-an-eu-army-kept-secret-from-voters/
> 
> Now why would they do that, and Germany is all for it, what a surprise.


European army would be entertaining in a war.

On previous experience, at the first sight of the enemy and the French would surrender, the Italians would change sides, the Germans would all start goose stepping, and our lads would be the only ones fighting. :lol:


----------



## bobclive22

When you have unlimited access to a large pool of unskilled labour you get scumbag employers like Ashley taking advantage, he now states he doesn`t have zero rate contracts, he has the next best thing to them, the employment agencies appear to be based in eastern Europe, 95% of the 3000 workers at Shirebrook are on very short contracts probable 1 or 2 days a week if they are lucky. I for one was delighted to see Newcastle United relegated together with their scum bag sponsors Wonga. Two nasty companies that take advantage of the vulnerable.


----------



## rustyintegrale

bobclive22 said:


> When you have unlimited access to a large pool of unskilled labour you get scumbag employers like Ashley taking advantage, he now states he doesn`t have zero rate contracts, he has the next best thing to them, the employment agencies appear to be based in eastern Europe, 95% of the 3000 workers at Shirebrook are on very short contracts probable 1 or 2 days a week if they are lucky. I for one was delighted to see Newcastle United relegated together with their scum bag sponsors Wonga. Two nasty companies that take advantage of the vulnerable.


Precisely why the EU is taking steps to ensure those workers on zero hours contracts are include in the laws already protecting those properly employed.

Without these rules, scumbags like Ashley will always be allowed to take advantage of cheap labour. Parasites like Wonga will still take advantage of those unfortunate enough not to be earning enough to live on. All the time people's basic outgoings are not matched by fair incomings then loan sharks will flourish. The fact they're not outlawed already makes my blood boil.

These businesses have no place on our high streets. They have no scruples, no moral compass. The best thing the man on the street can do *right now* is to not use them at all.


----------



## bobclive22

Precisely why the EU is taking steps to ensure those workers on zero hours contracts are include in the laws already protecting those properly employed.

Zero hours mean No mortgage, no bank loans, can`t rent from private landlords and no security, Most warehouses in the UK implement zero or short term contracts that lead nowhere, this should be outlawed.


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> Precisely why the EU is taking steps to ensure those workers on zero hours contracts are include in the laws already protecting those properly employed.
> 
> Zero hours mean No mortgage, no bank loans, can`t rent from private landlords and no security, Most warehouses in the UK implement zero or short term contracts that lead nowhere, this should be outlawed.


The point is that if they are covered by the same employment laws that apply to permanent contracts, they won't be so attractive to employers who want to use them to save money - but it means they'll still be available for people who actually want them (there will always be people who prefer a zero hours contract), but it will put the employee in control. Outlawing them is an over-reaction which would ultimately limit employees choice.


----------



## Trouble4

> The point is that if they are covered by the same employment laws that apply to permanent contracts, they won't be so attractive to employers who want to use them to save money - but it means they'll still be available for people who actually want them (there will always be people who prefer a zero hours contract), but it will put the employee in control. Outlawing them is an over-reaction which would ultimately limit employees choice.


it is said to be a choice but in reality it is a forced work as to be zero hour contract or you do not get the job..

as they know someone will take it as people need work..... turn over is great and the employers do not care


----------



## rustyintegrale

Trouble4 said:


> The point is that if they are covered by the same employment laws that apply to permanent contracts, they won't be so attractive to employers who want to use them to save money - but it means they'll still be available for people who actually want them (there will always be people who prefer a zero hours contract), but it will put the employee in control. Outlawing them is an over-reaction which would ultimately limit employees choice.
> 
> 
> 
> it is said to be a choice but in reality it is a forced work as to be zero hour contract or you do not get the job..
> 
> as they know someone will take it as people need work..... turn over is great and the employers do not care
Click to expand...

Some people do like working under a zero hours contract because it gives them the freedom to work when they want. But you'll find most people doing that are working for extra spending money as opposed to being the main bread-winner in a household who pays the regular bills. For them a zero hours contract is worthless and pointless.


----------



## bobclive22

Some people do like working under a zero hours contract because it gives them the freedom to work when they want.

I don`t think it works like that, it gives freedom for the employers, but if it is not convenient for the worker on that day he/she probably won`t be asked again.


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> Some people do like working under a zero hours contract because it gives them the freedom to work when they want.
> 
> I don`t think it works like that, it gives freedom for the employers, but if it is not convenient for the worker on that day he/she probably won`t be asked again.


What we're saying is that there is a degree of freedom from having a non-fixed contract which will appeal to some people. We're not saying every employee on a zero hours contract gets to pick and choose exactly which shifts they work, but within the pool of workers there is flexibility when drawing up the rota - if someone needs a specific day off, there's a reasonable chance (though not a guarantee) that someone else will be free and will want an extra days pay.

Again, the point is that by outlawing it you remove any possibility of employee choice. By bringing it under current employment laws, you protect everyone who has a zero hours contract so they can't be exploited. Zero hours contracts aren't inherently wrong - the behaviour of employers who use these contracts often is though. So, stop the behaviour, not the contracts.

<edit> To put it another way - if you bring zero hours contracts under standard employment laws, they become less profitable for the employer. This means an employer will only offer them as a means to provide (and benefit from) flexibility, not as a means to save money at the employees expense.


----------



## bobclive22

(you protect everyone who has a zero hours contract so they can't be exploited).

The farmer interviewed on TV stated it it rains I don`t pay them. Please explain how this protection works.


----------



## Shug750S

bobclive22 said:


> (you protect everyone who has a zero hours contract so they can't be exploited).
> 
> The farmer interviewed on TV stated it it rains I don`t pay them. Please explain how this protection works.


That'll be the same farmer who gets paid EU subsidies then...


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> (you protect everyone who has a zero hours contract so they can't be exploited).
> 
> The farmer interviewed on TV stated it it rains I don`t pay them. Please explain how this protection works.


The protection doesn't work at the moment, because it doesn't exist, because the UK government keep opting out of EU law changes designed to protect workers on these types of contract, leaving workers in the UK with less protection than their counterparts in many of the poorer Eastern European countries which recently joined the EU.

Yep, that's what you're signing up for if you want to leave the EU... A Conservative government that actively negotiates it's way out of the EU laws that protect workers from exploitation, whilst implementing their own token law changes that have a loophole so large that they might as well not have bothered writing the damn things at all.


----------



## bobclive22

_The protection doesn't work at the moment, because it doesn't exist, because the UK government keep opting out of EU law changes designed to protect workers on these types of contract, leaving workers in the UK with less protection than their counterparts in many of the poorer Eastern European countries which recently joined the EU._

Give an example of this protection in these poor EU counties, Spain will do.


----------



## rustyintegrale

You see the 'Quote' button bottom right?

Why not try it?

Making sense of your posts would be a whole lot easier...


----------



## leopard

Spandex said:


> Yep, that's what you're signing up for if you want to leave the EU... A Conservative government that actively negotiates it's way out of the EU laws that protect workers from exploitation, whilst implementing their own token law changes that have a loophole so large that they might as well not have bothered writing the damn things at all.


The Government do this now whilst Britain is part of the EU.

What makes you think anything will change if we vote to stay in ?


----------



## Spandex

leopard said:


> Spandex said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, that's what you're signing up for if you want to leave the EU... A Conservative government that actively negotiates it's way out of the EU laws that protect workers from exploitation, whilst implementing their own token law changes that have a loophole so large that they might as well not have bothered writing the damn things at all.
> 
> 
> 
> The Government do this now whilst Britain is part of the EU.
> 
> What makes you think anything will change if we vote to stay in ?
Click to expand...

Well, I've never claimed it will change if we stay in, but I do believe it will get a whole lot worse if we leave.


----------



## John-H

Plus of course we could have a change of government at some point.


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> Give an example of this protection in these poor EU counties, Spain will do.


http://www.cipd.co.uk/binaries/employme ... t_2015.pdf

All the information is in there. I don't believe it's particularly contentious to say that the UK has less employment regulation and protection than most of Europe. It's fairly easy to measure and it's well documented.


----------



## Shug750S

John-H said:


> Plus of course we could have a change of government at some point.


And another referendum to rejoin the EU if this vote says out?????????????


----------



## bobclive22

You stated,

_The protection doesn't work at the moment, because it doesn't exist, because the UK government keep opting out of EU law changes designed to protect workers on these types of contract, leaving workers in the UK with less protection than their counterparts in many of the poorer Eastern European countries which recently joined the EU._

I asked for an example of this protection in these poor EU countries.

You made the statement, I asked the question, you wade through the policy report and give me the answer I requested.

It appears the Germans are threatening us now, vote leave.


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> You stated,
> 
> _The protection doesn't work at the moment, because it doesn't exist, because the UK government keep opting out of EU law changes designed to protect workers on these types of contract, leaving workers in the UK with less protection than their counterparts in many of the poorer Eastern European countries which recently joined the EU._
> 
> I asked for an example of this protection in these poor EU countries.
> 
> You made the statement, I asked the question, you wade through the policy report and give me the answer I requested.


Not only did you ask the question, you bizarrely even chose the country I had to use in my example :? .

I'm a bit baffled why you think I would have any interest in typing up a specific example at your request in order to prove something to someone who can't be bothered to read through the freely available information themselves.

I've made a statement. I've provided an expert report based on public data which backs up my statement. If you want to debate its validity then go for it.


----------



## Spandex

Shug750S said:


> John-H said:
> 
> 
> 
> Plus of course we could have a change of government at some point.
> 
> 
> 
> And another referendum to rejoin the EU if this vote says out?????????????
Click to expand...

I live in hope that one day we'll get a government that has the leadership and conviction to make complex decisions like this without having to call a referendum.

Let's face it, for all of our waffling on here, none of us really have the breadth and depth of knowledge on global economics, security, law, etc. to make a genuinely informed decision. The only reason we have a referendum is because Cameron has no real leadership and is in charge of a party that could never agree on the correct course. So he took the easy way out and called a referendum (flattering the British public in the process, so they were unlikely to question why he wasn't making the decision himself).


----------



## John-H

Quite. All a bit sad really and could get sadder as a consequence :?


----------



## Dash

This is a good resource which doesn't clear through all the crap, does fact check some of it:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-polit ... m-35603388

I think the facts boil down to:
- There is a high _chance_ of economic problems in the near-term if we leave (an impact of more than 1% GDP will wipe out more money than the money we give, gross, to the EU) - nobody can tell the future, experts can only predict, non-experts (e.g. all of us) can only make unfounded speculations.

- Nobody knows what will actually happen if we leave, but there will be a period of uncertainty (which history shows us economies don't react well to) - we may be better for it in a generation, we may not.

- If we leave, there is no plan in place by government (the only people who can set policy) to deal with anything if things go sour.

- Rules and regulations that have been inherited from Europe will have to be replaced with something, they may or may not be better for us as citizens (but will be implemented by the current government - how far do you trust them to do what's best?).

- All current treaties and agreements are open for renegotiation, which we would now do as an individual $3trn economy instead of the $18.5trn economic block we are currently a part of.

We don't know what will happen with things like free-movement, benefits, ex-pats, visas, trade et all if we leave as it'll all have to be re-_negotiated_ - lets see how much demand there is for our exports when there is no longer mandatory free trade.


----------



## bobclive22

_Not only did you ask the question, you bizarrely even chose the country I had to use in my example_

You have obviously read the document and know exactly where your example is within that large document yet you won`t point me to it`s location, that`s rather sad but not surprising from a true believer.

Briton joined the common in 1973 see graph, shall we stop all this bull regarding the collapse of the pound if we leave.


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> _Not only did you ask the question, you bizarrely even chose the country I had to use in my example_
> 
> You have obviously read the document and know exactly where your example is within that large document yet you won`t point me to it`s location, that`s rather sad but not surprising from a true believer.
> 
> Briton joined the common in 1973 see graph, shall we stop all this bullshit regarding the collapse of the pound if we leave.


Yes, I get it.. Refer to people who disagree with you (about the EU or climate change or, I suspect, anything else) as "true believers" in the hope that you can belittle their position by likening it to mindless religious indoctrination. It might be vaguely clever if it was actually your idea. But it's not, so it's not.

That document clearly states a number of times that the UK is one of the least protected labour markets. That is exactly what I stated. Why would I want or need to find an example (that you've chosen) when I've already given a source that backs up my statement? There is even a big old graph in there that sums it up for the sorts of people who like to make massively important decisions after doing as little research as possible.


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> Briton joined the common in 1973 see graph, shall we stop all this bull regarding the collapse of the pound if we leave.


 I honestly can't work out what you're saying that graph proves.


----------



## Dash

Come come Spandex, you must know the irrefutable nature of graphs prove whatever the point the author is making.

Here's my contribution, I think you'll find the graph speaks for itself.


----------



## Spandex

Dash said:


> Come come Spandex, you must know the irrefutable nature of graphs prove whatever the point the author is making.
> 
> Here's my contribution, I think you'll find the graph speaks for itself.


Well, that's a good start, but now we need to work out if Nicholas Cage films are causing people to drown, or if drowning people are causing Nicholas Cage to make films...


----------



## John-H

:lol: pattern spotting is an innate human ability and serves us well for finding connections in our world but it helps to have the intelligence to realise that coincidences are possible too and the harder you look to try and prove a pet point the more likely you are to find them.

I like spotting the regression to the mean mistake people make too, such as when a normal statistical variation of road deaths gets called an accident black spot so they stick a speed camera on it and then congratulate themselves when there are no deaths in the following years and wrongly think the speed camera has saved lives when in actual fact the previous couple of deaths were just an unfortunate noise spike and the normal statistic is no deaths and nothing to do with the camera.

Some campaigners even trawl through such data sets and selectively strip out many such examples to compound their own mistaken beliefs when all they are doing in reality is ignoring the data that shows no connection.

Don't get me started on the NHS and the weekend effect.

I bet that if we were unfortunate enough to leave the EU then when the war in Syria eventually ends and along with it the migrant crisis and TV coverage, that any reduced immigration will be held up by the outers as a consequence of leaving the EU even though it has nothing to do with it.

Also, if when we are all suffering the economic effects of brexit and forced into another round of austerity and recession, making Britain a less attractive destination and residence, any casual link from this to reduced net immigration (including emigration) will be classed as a price worth paying by the brexit lot. Mind you, they will probably be able to cover up all sorts of unfavorable statistics due to Scotland leaving the UK affecting the numbers :roll:

All goes to show that the one thing you need in life is a sense of perspective and when dealing with statistics you don't therefore lose sight of the influence of bias. Seeing that in others is a wise attribute. Let's hope we all gain some wisdom before making a decision.


----------



## 3TT3

The pound and the euro.
No exact times sorry..
About 3 years ago 1 euro got you 86 pence .I bought a lot of sterling(like 500  ) cos I felt the rate was going to change a lot.
A year later it was around 1 euro =80p so it was like I had money saved in the bank and a good rate of interest, even with exchange commision + I send a small amount of sterling in the post around cmas time ..
Since then its been hovering around 1 euro =75 p , a few pence either way.
Recently with "opinion polls" , were staying in..pound goes up 1%..big headlines .
immigration figures..new poll "were leaving" pound drops 1% big headlines..(ho hum)

Its do the hokey cokey time.

There will be lots of "traders" gambling on the vote hoping to make bonus targets n all sorts of stuff on "the vote". Do they care which way the pound goes? not a bit. Just so long as they guess the right way.
Have a look at the last scene in that movie trading places


----------



## bobclive22

Stuart Wilkie of Excalibur Steel, who has been granted a leave of absence from his role as head of Tata Steel's Strip Products UK to lead the buyout, told ITV News in his first broadcast interview: "I don't think any longer we're talking about 40,000 jobs in the steel supply chain.

"I think potentially we're talking about *hundreds of thousands of jobs *if we cannot support an entity in the UK making steel."

British Home Stores to close with loss of 11,000 jobs.

I can see the headlines if this had occurred shortly after exit from EU

The graph I posted is just a Dollar to pound graph, the only point I make is that it is actually lower since we joined the EU.


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> The graph I posted is just a Dollar to pound graph, the only point I make is that it is actually lower since we joined the EU.


That's not a point, it's an observation. Are you trying to imply us joining the EU is the reason why it's lower? Do you think that graph has the information to tell you that?


----------



## Trouble4

> the only point I make is that it is actually lower since we joined the EU.


and it was pointed out that even more in recent years........ especially with Greece having it's problems


----------



## Dash

Spandex said:


> Well, that's a good start, but now we need to work out if Nicholas Cage films are causing people to drown, or if drowning people are causing Nicholas Cage to make films...


Nicolas Cage is clearly the fault of Europe.


----------



## Shug750S

I'm in the undecided camp.

I guess if we leave ( and I have no idea what timeframe is planned as no-one seems to know) we will get royally screwed by the rest of Europe. It could even be the collapse of the EU as Sweden would probably wait and see how we did, plus the Germans and French (and other 'better off' countries) would see their contributions increase, which could lead to pressure on the whole system.

However. If we stay we could end up with 'death by a thousand cuts' and the long term outcome could be worse.

Really stuck undecided at present, as I plan to retire in about 6-10 years, so not sure I can afford to take the hit now and possibly not recover before retirement hits.

Problem is without a crystal ball....


----------



## John-H

I think it's generaly accepted that if we leave it's a one way decision - unlikely that we could later change our mind and even less likely that we could re-enter on the same favorable terms with the various opt outs e.g Shengen etc.

If we stay in and things really did get bad, as I understand it, there would be no legal reason why we couldn't decide to leave in future.

Given that deciding to change now would cause turmoil and uncertainty but deciding to stay would be calm and any change would be slow to pan out, it's a no-brainer to stay.Why are we being invited to gamble?

It saddens me that this situation has arisen. The public along with most of us don't have the knowledge to decide it's favorable to change direction but we've been given the responsibility.

It's the politicians whom we elect to make these sort of decisions that should research and decide what's best on our behalf but they seen to be behaving like a bunch of bickering school children.

Unbelievably Boris Johnson had an in and an out speech prepared the night before he flipped a coin and pitched his weight behind the out arguments and figures now shown to be bogus yet there is no retraction or admission that he was 50:50.

I heard a member of the public on the radio saying that it was important to go with your gut feeling (so no carefully researched analysis then!) and then went on to say that they had decided out because they didn't liked the personality of one of the in campaigners :roll:

Should we let our futures be decided by people using random emotions rather than focussed brains?

Well apparently that's democracy for you but I question why this should be put to a referendum amongst people who don't have the knowledge to be sure that change will be good for us.

This is just the politicians avoiding their responsibilities and gambling the future of the country if the vote goes out.

They don't put capital punishment to a referendum because they know what is morally correct, allows us to take the high ground internationally and also what the public may say. So why is this EU referendum happening?


----------



## Dash

I think you make an important point John. If we ask the government to leave then that's it - we are on our own for good, if we grovel back it'll be on Europe's terms, not our currently powerful position.

If at any point the UK government decides that things have gone too far, they have the power to leave. There are no plans for another referendum any time soon, but that doesn't stop the government from acting. All the referendum does is provide insight to the current opinions of the voting public.

The EU may not be perfect, and may be less efficient than we would hope (want government isn't?), But it brings a lot of good and value to our country. If you can see past xenophobia arguments (aaahhh Jonny foreigner is going to take your children, etc), then the smart move is to maintain the status quo and then pressure for reform of Europe.

Being part of a stonger collective will do everybody good. But if the turn out at the last MEP elections is anything to go by, i suspect the vocal Daily Mail readers will probably have forgotten about their passion the next time and carry on blaming somebody else for what they perceive is wrong.

Out of interest, I'd say that about a tenth of the people I interact with in the real world support leaving - although I suspect group of people isn't an accurate cross section of society.


----------



## Shug750S

Gut feel says better to be on the inside and try to change things you don't like, than on the outside shouting but having no influence whatsoever...


----------



## John-H

Interesting point made on Today - that the referendum vote isn't legally binding and parliament could delay triggering the two year exit clause in the treaty if it wanted to delay exit - as perhaps a cooling off period to reconsider. The exit clause can be triggered at any time a government wishes - nothing to with any referendum.

One of the reasons for this is that the vast majority of MPs want to stay in as they fear the effect of leaving on the economy.

In particular the "Canada" option where we leave the EU and the single market and have to re-negotiate trade deals with individual countries with the disastrous effect this will likely have on the balance of trade. For that reason they may opt for the "Norway" option, so leave the EU but join the single market to safeguard the economy but which in turn will require accepting the free movement of people - so increased immigration without the means to control it as with our current opt-out - the opposite of what unfortunately a lot of people think they are voting for by leaving.

Undoubtedly either way we'd be in a worse position should we vote out with a looming economic or constitutional crisis as a consequence.

Clearly we have a far better deal now by staying in with no disruption or triggered consequence to worry about. It's a no-brainer as they say and staying in gives you the opportunity to influence EU policy.


----------



## Spandex

An interesting debate between Boris Johnson and Boris Johnson. It's a bit worrying that some portions of the general public believe everything he says when even he doesn't really believe it:

https://tompride.wordpress.com/2016/05/ ... s-johnson/

Yes, it's all just politics and each side will tell you whatever you want to hear because they're gambling on being an important part of the government if their side wins.


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## bobclive22

A comment in the Guardian, I think this sums it up.

In my department at work, where average salaries of my immediate colleagues are between £150k-£200k, they are as a group almost exclusively pro-remain.

And why wouldn't they be? Unlimited unskilled immigration has not threatened their jobs, or depressed their wages. Over subscribed schools are of no concern as they almost all access private schooling. Ditto healthcare - NHS waiting lists are something they read about, but doesn't affect them. You can apply a similar fact pattern to all the so-called experts and politicians coming out in favour of remain.

When I tell my colleagues I am pro-Brexit they are incredulous - why rock the boat? we have it so good!

Yes 'We' ('I') are doing very well indeed. But looking ahead to my children's future and I am not so confident. The EU will continue to destroy this country, not least the prospects of our future generations as it exports it horrendous youth unemployment to the UK.


----------



## Spandex

Or, it could just be that they're conforming to statistics which show that the more educated social groups are more likely to vote Remain. I'm making a small assumption that a department of people earning £150k - £200k are likely to be relatively well educated, of course.

Regardless, you really need to read the comment dispassionately. The only two 'factual' statements in it are that the author is voting Leave and his colleagues are voting Remain. The rest of it is the author imagining the reasons for his colleagues choice, naturally with a convenient negative spin because he disagrees with their decision.


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## bobclive22

You are talking total bulls**t, I rented a £1/2 million pound property to a High flying doctor and her consultant husband, highly educated, She flooded the hall with the bath shower attachment, he called me out because the heating did not work, the thermostat was turned to zero, They got burgled because they were hardly ever in and the curtains were always drawn too permanently, the insurers told them to put a cycle cable lock over the patio window handles on the inside to make the door temporarily secure, they placed the lock on the outside because they didn`t like the smell of the plastic covering.

You don`t have to be educated to come to a rational decision and as the commentator stated, if you are wealthy mass immigration won`t bother you, it only effects the poor and lower middle classes.

The value of the pound dipped sharply against the dollar this morning as the prospect of a Leave vote spooked the markets. Look at 12 hour graph shown in press, then look at 30 day graph, more bulls**t.


----------



## bobclive22

If the Vote Leave win but are wrong about the economy we Brits are capable of working out our destiny without the *dead hand of Brussels restraining our industries.* But if the Remains win and are *wrong about Immigration *we could be swamped by the millions who would take advantage of what we have and there would be *nothing we could do about it.
*

What would I sooner have . . . staying in the *most corrupt organisation on the planet *or getting my own country back with the *possible risk* that I could, might, maybe, possibly be a *few quid worse off*? It's a no-brainer. *Sovereignty wins every time* and those who are loyal to our country will be the ones who make it *GREAT again!*


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> You don`t have to be educated to come to a rational decision and as the commentator stated, if you are wealthy mass immigration won`t bother you, it only effects the poor and lower middle classes.


But perhaps you do have to be intelligent to understand how statistics work?

The statistics show that the more educated social groups are more likely to vote Remain. Lets explain a few misconceptions you seem to be labouring under:

1. Being educated doesn't guarantee you will vote Remain. It is just more likely.
2. The statistic doesn't make any judgement about which decision is right or wrong.
3. The statistic doesn't imply anything about people's ability to make rational decisions.


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> The value of the pound dipped sharply against the dollar this morning as the prospect of a Leave vote spooked the markets. Look at 12 hour graph shown in press, then look at 30 day graph, more bulls**t.


Seriously, what point are you actually making???


----------



## Dash

bobclive22 said:


> But if the Remains win and are *wrong about Immigration *we could be swamped by the millions who would take advantage of what we have and there would be *nothing we could do about it.*


This is one of the biggest misconceptions of leave campaigners. The referendum is a Tory election promise to gather our opinion - it's not a one shot process allowed by the EU. If things go down the pan in the future with the EU the government (this or any other) can leave with or without a referendum. The hypothetical crapness for staying in isn't a problem - we leave it turns out to be true. The hypothetical crapness for leaving is a problem - we can't rejoin, especially in the unique and flexible state we are currently.

And stop spouting immigration rubbish. We've been part of the EU for a long time, immigration is very important as we don't have enough children to prop up the economy on our own. Half of immigration comes from outside of the EU. We also have provisions agreed with the EU to reduce the attractiveness of the UK for people just looking to claim benefits. Without those provisions currently, we're seeing 1.6% of the tax credit bill being spent on families that have a EU migrant in it (this includes people who've married somebody from the EU and the UK-born resident claims).

If you're worried about the money, then you'd be better off worrying about unregulated banking practices that screwed everything up a few years ago - this is something that EU would like to see tighter controls over, to stop people and governments being screwed over financially. Ah those evil EU people at it again.



> What would I sooner have . . . staying in the *most corrupt organisation on the planet *or getting my own country back with the *possible risk* that I could, might, maybe, possibly be a *few quid worse off*? It's a no-brainer. *Sovereignty wins every time* and those who are loyal to our country will be the ones who make it *GREAT again!*


The most corrupt organisation on the planet? Really. You expect anybody to take you seriously spouting unfounded claims like that. The EU isn't perfect, but it's not some Dr Evil corporation looking to pillage your household.

How much sovereignty is at threat by working cooperatively with our neighbours?


----------



## Spandex

Dash said:


> How much sovereignty is at threat by working cooperatively with our neighbours?


Unfortunately, that is probably a long way from most Leave voters minds. They like to imagine Britain as a global superpower, standing alone and only entering partnerships where they have the upper hand (which is everywhere, because we're so awesome).

On other forums, I've honestly seen people posting with glee at the thought of the EU disintegrating if we were to leave - because the thought of getting one over on Johnny Foreigner is so delicious they completely ignore the disastrous impact it would have on us if our closest and largest trading market were to implode.


----------



## bobclive22

_But perhaps you do have to be intelligent to understand how statistics work?_

"There are three kinds of lies: *lies, damned lies, and statistics*".

_Seriously, what point are you actually making??? _

*The point is *that the press chose a 12 hour graph to indicate a drop in sterling against the Euro, siting vote leave pulling ahead for the drop, the same graph over 30 days *clearly indicates the normal ups and downs of currency fluctuation.*

_because the thought of getting one over on Johnny Foreigner is so delicious they completely ignore the disastrous impact it would have on us if our closest and largest trading market were to implode. _

I am at a loss hear, it is already imploding, almost 50% youth unemployment in Greece, 45% in spain, 40% in Italy 30% in Portugal, even France has 25% unemployed, do you stay with a sinking ship, we cannot even after months of negotiation alter the course of that Juggernaut.

_And stop spouting immigration rubbish. We've been part of the EU for a long time,_

We haven`t been getting 300,000+ immigrants per year since we first joined the EEC.

*The EU is on a suicide mission. Do we want to be a part of it?*

Europe is expecting a similar number of migrants to arrive this year, and now the situation is so bad that last week Donald Tusk, the president of the European Council - appealed to the world: 'Do not come to Europe.' Too late. Last year, he and Angela invited them. And due to the incompetence, blindness or weakness of Europe's leadership, everyone stayed. At last beginning to panic, those same leaders spent last week trying to slow the flow of migrants from Syria by *doing a deal which flings the doors of Europe open to the citizens of Turkey.*

http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/03/euro ... under-sieg

Since the UK joined the European Economic Community in 1973, and had a referendum about our membership in 1975, the global economy has been transformed out of all recognition. First Japan and later China and India have become economic powerhouses. Changes in technology have shrunk the planet. Globalisation means that Europe is no longer the centre of the world. "The World Trade Organization has brought down tariff rates around the world," the Spectator noted in a piece called "Ten Myths About Brexit". "*Even if we didn't sign a free-trade deal with the EU, we would have to pay, at most, £7.5 billion a year in tariffs for access to its markets. That's well below our current membership fee."*

The EU itself has changed from a confident Common Market to a *tired, increasingly fragmented superstate, bickering about debts so huge that they will never be repaid *- the Greek debt burden works out to be around £22,000 for every man, woman and child in the country.

The Greeks cannot devalue their currency therefor that dept will remain a massive burden for decades as it will for the other poorer counties in the EU, rename it the German empire.


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> Spandex said:
> 
> 
> 
> But perhaps you do have to be intelligent to understand how statistics work?
> 
> 
> 
> "There are three kinds of lies: *lies, damned lies, and statistics*".
Click to expand...

That's it? That's your justification for completely misunderstanding what the statistics say? A trite truism? Are all statistics lies, or only the ones that you disagree with? :lol: 


bobclive22 said:


> Spandex said:
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously, what point are you actually making???
> 
> 
> 
> *The point is *that the press chose a 12 hour graph to indicate a drop in sterling against the Euro, siting vote leave pulling ahead for the drop, the same graph over 30 days *clearly indicates the normal ups and downs of currency fluctuation.*
Click to expand...

Come on, use a bit of common sense before posting this stuff. The fact that currency fluctuates naturally isn't in dispute - the article simply states that *this particular fluctuation* (and there was a fluctuation) is caused by uncertainty around the referendum. If there is something in your 30 day graph which actually disproves that assertion then you're going to have to be a bit more specific about what it is.

Given that even the Leave campaign admit that there will be a period of economic instability should we leave the EU, I have no idea why you've decided that the prospect of this happening is unlikely to have an impact on exchange rates - when it is well known that *this exact sort of thing* can influence exchange rates.



bobclive22 said:


> Spandex said:
> 
> 
> 
> because the thought of getting one over on Johnny Foreigner is so delicious they completely ignore the disastrous impact it would have on us if our closest and largest trading market were to implode.
> 
> 
> 
> I am at a loss hear, it is already imploding, almost 50% youth unemployment in Greece, 45% in spain, 40% in Italy 30% in Portugal, even France has 25% unemployed, do you stay with a sinking ship, we cannot even after months of negotiation alter the course of that Juggernaut.
Click to expand...

It's not imploding, although it has clearly faced (and is still facing) some serious challenges as a result of the global financial crisis. As for whether we stay with a sinking ship, I'd have to say "no" we shouldn't - but what the Leave campaign are proposing is the equivalent of jumping overboard just because the wind has picked up a bit. Why not wait to see if the ship can weather the storm before panicking, because they're sure as hell not going to turn the ship around to pick us up later if we change our mind. (I think we're reaching the limits of that particular analogy).

Now *that's* how you use a quote button...


----------



## bobclive22

_What's wrong with playing safe for the next few years and later - IF - it becomes unbearable deciding to exit then? Why the rush into the unknown now?_

(1) You won`t get another vote.

(2) It will always be into the unknown, it`s whether you are brave enough to take your chance.

_The article simply states that this particular fluctuation (and there was a fluctuation) is caused by uncertainty around the referendum._

(1) According to Scotiabank currency forecasts, *the US dollar exchange rate dominance is set to continue for a 4th year running in 2016*

(2) A recovery is forecast for the British pound to dollar exchange rate before end of Q1 2016, *before continuing the familiar downtrend say leading analysts at Lloyds:*

*We choose to leave the EU in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too."*


----------



## John-H

bobclive22 said:


> _What's wrong with playing safe for the next few years and later - IF - it becomes unbearable deciding to exit then? Why the rush into the unknown now?_
> 
> (1) You won`t get another vote.


Why? So you think our politicians are teasing us, dangling a last chance grab before they yank it away and say you've had your chance?

We can always exit the EU any time we like, giving two years notice under the treaty and any change to the treaty we would have to agree - that right is absolute.

Do you seriously think that if things turn out bad in the EU in future and our politicians our us voters seriously want out that the pressure for this can be resisted? Why would they resist if it made sense? What you say doors not make sense. Yet again you are reading into things, that ,which is not there and presenting it as fact when it clearly is not.



bobclive22 said:


> (2) I will always be into the unknown, it`s whether you are brave enough to take your chance.
> 
> We choose to go to leave the EU in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too."


You have one quotation mark at the end so it's difficult to know where the cut and paste begins. Or did you compose this all yourself? It seems to be some sort of call to arms before the night of battle or something.

I'd rather get on with my neighbors than try and wind them up by coming across all Captain Mainwearing.


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## Spandex

Bizarrely, his quote is a butchered JFK speech about going to the moon. The relevance or appropriateness of that is lost on me...


----------



## Danny1

Well who would have thought it, 20 pages in and the stayers say they are right the leavers say they are right. I cant remember the last time we left the EU? So god knows how you all know whats going to happen. Me personally will vote leave, its time for a change imo! 8)


----------



## Spandex

Danny1 said:


> Well who would have thought it, 20 pages in and the stayers say they are right the leavers say they are right. I cant remember the last time we left the EU? So god knows how you all know whats going to happen. Me personally will vote leave, its time for a change imo! 8)


Similar to admitting you have no idea if your rucksack contains a parachute or a packed lunch, then jumping out the plane anyway because you fancied a change of scenery...


----------



## Danny1

Spandex said:


> Danny1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well who would have thought it, 20 pages in and the stayers say they are right the leavers say they are right. I cant remember the last time we left the EU? So god knows how you all know whats going to happen. Me personally will vote leave, its time for a change imo! 8)
> 
> 
> 
> Similar to admitting you have no idea if your rucksack contains a parachute or a packed lunch, then jumping out the plane anyway because you fancied a change of scenery...
Click to expand...

If it makes you feel better in life trying to belittle people that post things you dont agree with then keep going, I dont like things the way they are, hence Im happy to take a risk and go for change, you might be scared and want to stay in and not take the risk, get your vote in and good luck to you.


----------



## bobclive22

Going down with the boat is one option jumping into the sea is another, more chance in the sea.

You appear to have total faith in your leaders, so did the Nottinghamshire miners, they had total faith in the fairness of Margret Thatcher and the honesty of their Union leader Neil Greatrex, we all know what happened to the mining industry.

Greatrex was later convicted of stealing £150.000 from the miners care home. You are listening to the same powerful bunch with the money, some different names but all in the same club, It`s not about you, it`s not about what`s best for the country, it`s about whats best for them, you`re doffing your hat to your betters, you`re being taken in mate. You have the chance to get some power back with your vote and you are going to waste it. If the UK is that *important to the EU then leave and rejoin* on our terms, *if we are so important to the EU they will welcome us back with open arms*, we are the 5th largest economy in the world for gods sake, we have abundant energy with fracked gas, (that`s if the green religion lets us get it out),

Two IN backers,* Sir Philip Green* and *Goldman Sachs *co-chief executive Michael Sherwood.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... o-10381926.

We all know about BHS, and you trust the advice of this pair.


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## John-H

Gambling's a mugs game though :wink: What frightens me is the number of people who are prepared to gamble with my future and are not prepared to wait and see.


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> Going down with the boat is one option jumping into the sea is another, more chance in the sea.
> 
> You appear to have total faith in your leaders, so did the Nottinghamshire miners, they had total faith in the fairness of Margret Thatcher and the honesty of their Union leader Neil Greatrex, we all know what happened to the mining industry.
> 
> Greatrex was later convicted of stealing £150.000 from the miners care home. You are listening to the same powerful bunch with the money, some different names but all in the same club, It`s not about you, it`s not about what`s best for the country, it`s about whats best for them, you`re doffing your hat to your betters, you`re being taken in mate. You have the chance to get some power back with your vote and you are going to waste it. If the UK is that *important to the EU then leave and rejoin* on our terms, *if we are so important to the EU they will welcome us back with open arms*, we are the 5th largest economy in the world for gods sake, we have abundant energy with fracked gas, (that`s if the green religion lets us get it out),
> 
> Two IN backers,* Sir Philip Green* and *Goldman Sachs *co-chief executive Michael Sherwood.
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... o-10381926.
> 
> We all know about BHS, and you trust the advice of this pair.


I don't trust every single Remain supporter, any more than you trust every single Leave supporter. That would be insanity. But well done on discovering some Remain supporters are arseholes - If it helps, I can also confirm that Cameron is one of the biggest arsehole going. So is Johnson and so is Farage. Arseholes on both sides. Doesn't mean both sides must be wrong.

What is it about remain supporters that stops them from understanding subtlety and nuance?


----------



## rustyintegrale

Danny1 said:


> Spandex said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Danny1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well who would have thought it, 20 pages in and the stayers say they are right the leavers say they are right. I cant remember the last time we left the EU? So god knows how you all know whats going to happen. Me personally will vote leave, its time for a change imo! 8)
> 
> 
> 
> Similar to admitting you have no idea if your rucksack contains a parachute or a packed lunch, then jumping out the plane anyway because you fancied a change of scenery...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If it makes you feel better in life trying to belittle people that post things you dont agree with then keep going, I dont like things the way they are, hence Im happy to take a risk and go for change, you might be scared and want to stay in and not take the risk, get your vote in and good luck to you.
Click to expand...

I don't think Spandex was intending to belittle you. He made what I'd consider to be a good analogy which simply illustrates what a 'leave' vote could mean. Bizarrely though, both sides seem to be leaving us to make a choice based on the flip of a coin...

I watched the Cameron/Farage debate last night and all I really heard from both sides was regurgitated soundbites that I'd heard early in the day on the radio.

I find it incredulous that we still cannot get straight answers to straight questions. I don't want to hear why a black umbrella might no longer be black if the rain falling on it turns white...

Admittedly, talking about something that is unknown, is all hypothesis. But at this stage, if it isn't factual it shouldn't be presented.

Last night I heard Farage say our exports to the EU were 12% of our GDP. Then I'm sure Cameron then said they were 50%. Surely accurate, real figures must be recorded somewhere and they should be compelled to quote those, not some slightly skewed alternative.

How else can the man in the street be expected to make an educated and informed decision?


----------



## rustyintegrale

This makes for interesting and logical reading...

http://blog.moneysavingexpert.com/2016/ ... eferendum/


----------



## leopard

rustyintegrale said:


> watched the Cameron/Farage debate last night and all I really heard from both sides was regurgitated soundbites that I'd heard early in the day on the radio.


So did I however,if I had to choose then it would be Nige over Dave.

Cameron has been proven to be a liar before with the overseas tax haven fiasco and immigration control.In my eyes he can't be trusted over the EU referendum because he's fighting for his political life.

If he's seen to lose the argument there will be a leadership challenge and he'll be confined to Prime ministerial history...No bad thing.


----------



## rustyintegrale

leopard said:


> rustyintegrale said:
> 
> 
> 
> watched the Cameron/Farage debate last night and all I really heard from both sides was regurgitated soundbites that I'd heard early in the day on the radio.
> 
> 
> 
> So did I however,if I had to choose then it would be Nige over Dave.
Click to expand...

Well that's no basis to an informed choice. I don't like Cameron but I dislike that weasel Michael Gove even more.

Did you check out that link I posted earlier? I think that makes the economic position abundantly clear and shows how misunderstood the whole EU payments issue is.


----------



## John-H

Martin Lewis is a pretty straight talker.

I'm still chucking over the link Spandex posted:

https://tompride.wordpress.com/2016/05/ ... s-johnson/


----------



## Dash

rustyintegrale said:


> This makes for interesting and logical reading...
> 
> http://blog.moneysavingexpert.com/2016/ ... eferendum/


Good article, well balanced and without spin - something much of what is in the media is sadly lacking.


----------



## leopard

rustyintegrale said:


> leopard said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rustyintegrale said:
> 
> 
> 
> watched the Cameron/Farage debate last night and all I really heard from both sides was regurgitated soundbites that I'd heard early in the day on the radio.
> 
> 
> 
> So did I however,if I had to choose then it would be Nige over Dave.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well that's no basis to an informed choice. I don't like Cameron but I dislike that weasel Michael Gove even more.
> 
> Did you check out that link I posted earlier? I think that makes the economic position abundantly clear and shows how misunderstood the whole EU payments issue is.
Click to expand...

Taken slightly out of context there :lol:

Personally Nigel Farage's argument to leave the EU holds stronger for me than David Cameron's argument to stay in.That's my opinion and one I'm sticking to...Unless something magically gets pulled out of the bag at the eleventh hour from Brussels regarding freedom of movement and the associated immigration issue and all the repercussions that this entails,which Cameron wouldn't offer a solution in last nights' programme.


----------



## John-H

I think we can reasonably conclude a few things:

(1) Nobody knows what exactly will happen if we leave but an out vote will trigger a reaction and change which carries risk of making things better or worse.

(2) Voting to stay will continue the status quo with no risk from change because there is none but just the risk of later developmental changes when they occur.

I take it nobody disagrees with that?

So, given we have an ongoing right to give a two year notice of leaving to the EU at any time we please, if we think we don't like it, - does it . . . . .

(a) Make sense to gamble now and leave

or...

(b) Wait until there is a sensible and widely accepted reason to leave that a clear majority will call?

The above (b) rather than enter into this ridiculous knife edge win or lose gamble now - that we don't know the answer to?

Put your logical hat on! We can always decide later if it becomes obvious.

At the moment - as a collective - we haven't got a clue!

If you wanted to move house would you walk into an estate agent, randomly point and say I'll have that one because it's not what I've got now with no idea if you could afford it etc. Or would you wait to read some details and decide whether what's on offer works out better for you? Gambling your house is perhaps on a similar scale to what are talking about ultimately - who knows?


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## Trouble4

> (2) Voting to stay will continue the status quo with no risk from change because there is none but just the risk of later developmental changes when they occur.


but that is partial why many want to leave as another long period of low growth if none will be the forecast.... and if the same laws are still in place by the EU will it not continue to flood our work force ? how many immigrant's must this Country support or is it the UK citizens just do not want to work and want the Gov't to pay them for nothing ? [smiley=book2.gif]


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## rustyintegrale

George Osborne got fried and looked like a naughty schoolboy on Andrew Neil's interview this evening.

No Happy Meal for him tonight and straight home to bed!

Does he *seriously* think he can be Prime Minister?!


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## Shug750S

rustyintegrale said:


> George Osborne got fried and looked like a naughty schoolboy on Andrew Neil's interview this evening.
> 
> No Happy Meal for him tonight and straight home to bed!
> 
> Does he *seriously* think he can be Prime Minister?!


Shouldn't judge a guy on looks, but is he morphing into Mr Bean?


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## bobclive22

David Cameron's package of EU reforms cannot be made legally binding *before the British public vote on it*, the president of the European Parliament has said.

Martin Schulz said the European Parliament could amend any deal done at today's summit and would *not necessarily even rubber-stamp it at all.*

Are you actually going to vote *IN* on the basis of this, it`s like paying cash up front for your house without first having site of the deeds. You should remember the other bit of paper and the words *Piece in our times.*

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 76861.html


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## rustyintegrale

Shug750S said:


> rustyintegrale said:
> 
> 
> 
> George Osborne got fried and looked like a naughty schoolboy on Andrew Neil's interview this evening.
> 
> No Happy Meal for him tonight and straight home to bed!
> 
> Does he *seriously* think he can be Prime Minister?!
> 
> 
> 
> Shouldn't judge a guy on looks, but is he morphing into Mr Bean?
Click to expand...

Never mind his looks. He has no personality and no charisma either. I bet he sucks his thumb and picks his nose.


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## John-H

Trouble4 said:


> (2) Voting to stay will continue the status quo with no risk from change because there is none but just the risk of later developmental changes when they occur.
> 
> 
> 
> but that is partial why many want to leave as another long period of low growth if none will be the forecast.... and if the same laws are still in place by the EU will it not continue to flood our work force ? how many immigrant's must this Country support or is it the UK citizens just do not want to work and want the Gov't to pay them for nothing ? [smiley=book2.gif]
Click to expand...

You'd risk the UK and its economy over such a thing? Half the immigration into this country has nothing to do with the EU anyway. The economy swamps all. Losing your market and having to set up another one is by far the major consideration - Canada style. It's unlikely to happen anyway as most MPs don't want an EU exit. More likely then a Norway style agreement with full free movement of people. Worse than what we have now as regards border control. Did I mention no Scotland either?


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## cookymunster

THE EU REFERENDUM -THE CASE FOR BREXIT

Firstly, it's important that we know what the European Union actually is and not what it's made out to be.

What has now become the European Union we were told in 1972 was nothing more than a Customs Union under the innocently-sounding sobriquet of "The Common Market". A Customs Union is where two or more nations get together to trade tariff-free between themselves but impose common external tariffs on imports into their union. To the economically dysfunctional and depressed Britain of the late 1960's, it sounded like a good idea.

In 1975, just three years after joining the "Common Market" the Wilson Labour government held a referendum on whether or not we should remain within what was referred to on the voting paper as "the European Community (The Common Market)". The correct description should have been the "European Economic Community."

The actual referendum question was:

"Do you think the United Kingdom should stay in the European Community (The Common Market)?" The options in response to the question were either "Yes" or "No".

In the question, was the phrase in parenthesis "The Common Market" included for the avoidance of doubt and to assure voters that we were voting to stay in a simple Customs Union or, in hindsight, was it cynical obfuscation by the political elite of the day who knew full well that any reference to "economic, fiscal, monetary and political union" would have been voted down? Either way, it was misleading.

So, Britain was told that we were joining a Customs Union called "The Common Market". What have we actually joined?

THE EUROPEAN UNION - A NEW COUNTRY

To all intents and purposes we are now in a European State, a new country that on current intentions will become a United States of Europe in a few short years.

Under the Declarative Theory of Statehood as accepted by the United Nations the state as a person of international law should possess the following qualifications:
1.	a permanent population;
1.	a defined territory;
1.	a government;
1.	the capacity to enter into relations with other states.
The EU fulfills all these criteria in that:

1.	it has a "permanent population" of c508 million who, since 1993, have held a common citizenship bestowing legally enforceable rights on its citizens including the right to work and settle anywhere in the EU and to vote in elections;

1.	it has a "defined territory" in that through the Schengen Agreement it did away with all internal borders (except with Britain, Ireland and Denmark) and replaced them with an external border policed by an EU agency called Frontex;

1.	the EU clearly has a "government" in that it has a parliament, a supreme court, a central bank, a civil service and a president. It also carries out the definitive functions of government from taxation to policing;

1.	it also clearly has the "capacity to enter into relations with other states" in that through the Lisbon Treaty (the EU Constitution by the back door) it acquired the full panoply of diplomatic representation, ie:

(i) a foreign minister;

(ii) a diplomatic corps;

(iii) foreign embassies;

(iv) legal personality and treaty making powers;

(v) a nascent military force. Only this month (May 2016) a German Policy Paper has been leaked which reveals plans to establish an EU army, advocating plans for a joint headquarters and shared military assets; and

(vi) in 2010, the EU secured the ultimate test of statehood, namely the right to be represented at the United Nations with exactly the same prerogatives of any other nation state.

The EU has also acquired other trappings of a nation-state in that it has:
1.	its own flag;
1.	its own national anthem which, with no sense of historical irony, is a German tune;
1.	a national holiday (Europe Day - 9th May - which should really be called German Liberation Day being the date in 1945 when the Allies freed Germany from Naziism;
1.	a driving licence;
1.	a passport; and,
1. for the avoidance of doubt, the sign in the European Commission building in Brussels declares "Europe - Your Country".

The Cost of Britain's Membership of the EU

There are so many sets of figures bandied about by one side or the other that confusion reigns, but one thing is for certain - Britain pays in a lot more in than it get out.

The gross payment is the total actually calculated by the EU as being Britain's required contribution to the EU Budget for a particular year whereas the net payment is what Britain actually pays.

The net payment is the gross figure calculated by the EU less the Thatcher Rebate and other receipts from the EU under, for example, the Common Agricultural Policy and Regional Aid. I'll use 2015 as an example.

In 2015 the EU calculated that Britain's gross payment for the year was £18bn. This works out at approximately £346m per week. However, Britain didn't actually pay over that sum because the Thatcher Rebate is immediately applied. In 2015 the rebate was £5bn, so the actual amount paid over to the EU was £13bn being the gross £18bn less £5bn rebate. This works out at approximately £250m per week.

Of the £13bn actually paid to the EU in 2015 Britain received back from them approximately £4.5bn in regional grants and CAP payments thus making the net contribution for the year of £8.5bn. This works out at approximately £163m per week.

In every year since Britain joined the EU, except 1975, it has been a major net contributor to the EU Budget. The gross figure for the period between 1973 to 2014 at 2014 prices was the equivalent of £484bn which nets down to c£230bn.

Britain's Treasury's own forecasts for the upcoming period 2016 to 2020 is for gross payments of £96.5bn which nets down to £47.9bn.

So, Britain's contribution to the EU Budget from 1973 to 2020 is estimated to be £580bn gross - £278bn net.

The Economic Effects of BREXIT

The possible effects of Brexit on Britain's economy is one of the key issues, but only one.

Firstly, according to data provided by the World Bank and the IMF Britain is not an economic minnow in that:
1.	Britain is the 5th largest economy in the world in terms of GDP;
1.	Britain is the 9th largest economy in the world in terms of GDP /PPP (Purchasing Power Parity);
1.	In the Predictive List of the 50 world economies with the greatest contribution to Global Economic Growth in GDP(PPP) from 2010 to 2020 Britain ranks 4th behind China, the USA and India and AHEAD of ANY other country in the EU;
1.	Britain by 2030 is forecast to have a larger economy than both Germany and Japan;
1.	Britain is the world's 6th biggest exporter of goods and services.

No wonder the EU doesn't want Britain to leave. All those undeveloped East European countries (sometime to be joined by Albania, Montenegro, Macedonia, Serbia and Turkey), the Baltic States, the dysfunctional Club Med countries and even the advanced economies of Germany and France can see Britain as a key economic player and a huge net contributor to the EU budget.

It should be acknowledged that Britain is a major economic force in the world, not some economic basket case, and won't be cast into the abyss on leaving the EU.

World Bank and IMF data show that the EU is declining as a world economic power, partly driven by demographic factors, whilst the economic output of the USA, China, India, Australia, Canada and many emerging markets continue to grow.

In 1980 the EU represented 31.4% of world GDP (PPP). In 2010 this was down to 20.4% and the forecast for 2016 is a further reduction to 17.7%. Put another way, 82% of world GDP isn't in the EU.

It's claimed that 50% of British exports go to the EU. This was true in 2008, but in the 6 years to 2014 it has declined to 44% and is forecast to be about 40% by 2018. Put another way, by 2018 about 60% of Britain's exports go to markets other than the EU.

It's also worth noting that only 9% of Britain's GDP goes to the EU.
EU Tariffs - The Threat to Britain
It's claimed that if Britain leaves the EU it would be punished with punitive tariffs. This will not happen.
If on 23rd June Britain votes to leave the EU the procedure under Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty (the EU Constitution) would come into effect, but only when Britain formally informs the European Council that it wants to invoke Article 50 and commence disengagement proceedings.

If notice is given under Article 50 the UK and the European Council have a period of two years to negotiate the future relationship, but the clock doesn't start ticking until the formal notice is served.

Until the new relationship is agreed or after two years, whichever is the sooner, the existing arrangements between Britain and EU would continue unchanged as, of course, Britain would remain a member until formally withdrawn.

If a new relationship isn't negotiated within two years three things could happen:

1.	Britain and the EU agree an extension of time and carry on talking, in which case the status quo would maintain, or;

1.	the Prime Minister embarks on a proper renegotiation of Britain's relationship with the EU and this time obtains significant "full on" treaty changes to be put to a second referendum. Don't discount this as an outcome, despite what's been said to the contrary, as the EU has a track record of ignoring the vote in referendums as in France, Holland and Greece or having them vote again as in Ireland (twice) and Denmark until they get the result they want, or;

1.	if none of the above apply, Britain and EU would continue to trade with each other under the "Most Favoured Nation" rules of the World Trade Organisation that would not allow the EU to punish Britain by imposing discriminatory and punitive tariffs. The only tariffs the EU could impose would be the same as any other country trading with the EU in the goods and services concerned. The average tariff on goods allowed by the WTO is only 1.3%.

It seems patently obvious that it's in the interests of both parties to agree a mutually acceptable trade deal, but particularly important for the EU as they run a huge trading surplus of £69bn per annum with Britain. Are they going to throw that away in a fit of pique or spite?

The Future Relationship

If Britain votes for Brexit, there's no reason why it should seek the same sort of deal as Norway, Switzerland or Canada. These countries are not nearly as economically significant for the EU as Britain. We have substantially greater economic negotiating power than they do to agree a hybrid deal that suits us- "The British Deal".

Whilst Britain is negotiating a trade deal with the EU it should also be negotiating trade deals elsewhere
One area which should be given immediate attention is the Commonwealth.

Commonwealth countries have at least four features which are relevant to trade with Britain:

1.	because of shared history and commonalities of language, law and business practice it has been estimated that Commonwealth countries trading with one another achieve business costs 19% lower than similar trade with non-Commonwealth countries of comparable size and GDP. This factor is known as "the Commonwealth advantage";

1.	The modern Commonwealth spans five continents and contains developed, emerging and developing economies. Nearly every major economic grouping is represented and in its diversity it captures the character of the 21st century globalised economy;

1.	We're told that the EU's population of c508 million represents the world's largest market, but the Commonwealth has over 2 billion people accounting for 15% of the world GNI in PPP terms;

1.	the Commonwealth has favourable demographics and growth prospects. India alone has a population of c1.2 billion (nearly two and a half times larger than the EU) and seems unstoppable in its economic growth. It will overtake Britain and become the largest economy in the Commonwealth by 2018 and be the 3rd largest in the world by 2024;

1.	the Commonwealth's demographics compare very favourably with the EU where working populations will age and decline (maybe this is why Chancellor Merkel invited refugees to make the perilous trip to the EU);

1.	the Commonwealth has the advantage of being a group of friendly non-threatening and non-adversarial countries which include many with deep reserves of key natural resources.

A Cost Benefit Analysis

There have been several reputable Cost-Benefit Analyses of Britain's membership of the EU which all show substantial net costs to Britain.

These CBA's are usually considered under the following categories:

1.	Direct Fiscal Cost (Britain's net contribution to the EU Budget as noted above);

1.	Cost of Regulation and Red Tape;

1.	Cost of Resource Misallocation (principally the Common Agricultural Policy, the Common Fisheries Policy and regional aid);
1.	Cost of Lost Jobs through migration (jobs denied to British nationals by migrants);
1.	Cost of waste, fraud and corruption (e.g. CAP/CFP/criminality);
1.	Contingent liabilities (support of euro bailouts, Schengen, refugee crisis/etc)
Economists Professors Patrick Minford & Ian Milne in their 2004 CBA study suggested that the basic cost to Britain of being in the EU were around 3.5% to 4% of GDP per annum.

A later study in 2012 by Economist Professor Tim Congdon calculates that the cost to Britain could be as much as 10% of GDP per annum.

Britain's GDP in 2014 was approximately £1,500bn (£1.5 trillion) so the cost range of membership of the EU for one year taking all the above aspects into account is estimated as between £52.5bn (3.5%) and £150bn (10%).

In 2006 Gunter Verheugen (The EU Commissioner for Enterprise & Industry 2004-2010) said that the costs to business of complying with EU legislation could be up to 600bn euros or 5% of total EU GDP. The EU has been silent on this subject ever since, but if the EU's own 5% cost estimate is applied to Britain the cost could be £75bn for the year 2014 alone.

Only about 5% of British businesses trade with the EU but Britain has to apply EU rules and regulations to 100% of British businesses. This is ludicrous as it means that the EU regulations that affect, say, Rolls Royce who trade with the EU are also applied to a small-time metal basher in Birmingham who doesn't.

The Effect of Brexit on Britain's Employment

We're regularly told that 3 million jobs in Britain "depend" on its trade with the EU. They don't.

Dr. Martin Weale, the then Chairman of the Institute and latterly a member of the Bank of England's Monetary Policy Committee, has described this distortion and misappropriation of their research as "pure Goebbels", but the lie has been repeated so often that it has purloined the truth.

However, it must surely be obvious that jobs are associated with trade and not membership of a Political Union. Britain doesn't need to be in the EU to trade with the EU any more than China or the USA does.

For Britain and the EU post Brexit would be no Free Trade Agreement but trading under the "Most Favoured Nation" rules of the WTO at average tariffs on goods of 1.3%, job losses in Britain due to this marginal change in its terms of trade with the EU would not be significant.

Population Growth - The EU Effect on Britain's Essential Social Infrastructure

There are too many people already living in Britain and the projections for population growth are truly frightening.

The current scale of migration to Britain is a net 330,000 a year, of which roughly half is uncontrolled migration from the EU. This sort of population growth is totally unsustainable.

Net migration from the EU has more than doubled in the last 5 years and has increased 10-fold since the new Eastern European members joined in 2004.

As a result of this mass migration Britain's population is projected to grow by 500,000 every year - the equivalent of a city the size of Liverpool - for so long as immigration is permitted on this scale.

Over the next 15 years Britain's population is projected to grow by 8 million - a new city the size of London - of which 75% will be due directly to migration. This additional population growth adds hugely to the pressures on all public services.

The NHS is in severe crisi.

The government can't continue to pump money into the Supply Side of the NHS equation. The Demand Side must also be addressed. Demand for NHS services has to be stabilised in the first instance and then progressively reduced or it will become totally unsustainable, as it almost now is.

Population growth has also put immense pressure on Britain's education system where 60% of local authorities are projecting a severe shortage of primary school places by 2018.

Britain has a serious housing shortage. Why? Mass immigration is the main reason for the additional housing demand which requires a new home to be built every 7 minutes for the next 20 years to meet it. This is why all established settlements in Britain, city, town and country, are under huge pressure to accept more and more housing requiring more and more infrastructure to support it.

Population growth on this scale renders integration of newcomers almost impossible, and unless Britain gets total control over immigration it has no hope of providing sufficient resources for the NHS, Schools, Welfare, Housing, Transport and, in fact, every aspect of life in Britain.

How long before this rapidly deteriorating situation leads to civil unrest by the already established communities in Britain most under pressure from continued uncontrolled population growth?

Under the terms of Britain's commitment to the EU it cannot deny the right of any EU citizen to live and work here, even those convicted of serious crimes in their own country.

The refugee flood into the EU of almost 2 million people from the Middle East and elsewhere over the past 18 months will inevitably impact on Britain in the future because those now being accepted in the EU as refugees will be able to bring in their families and, in 5 to 8 years depending on the country they're in, will become EU citizens entitled to free movement throughout the EU, including to Britain.

The German-Turkey Deal

Whilst the agreement to try to restrict the flow of illegal migration form Turkey to the EU has been presented as an EU-Turkey deal it is, in fact, a German-Turkey deal negotiated directly with the Turks by Chancellor Merkel and then presented as a fait accompli to the rest of the EU.

The UK has already committed £500 million as a contribution to the 3bn euro payment to Turkey as part of the deal to, effectively, shore up the Schengen area although Britain is not a part of it.

As the Turks have managed to secure a second payment of 3bn euros it's reasonable to assume that the UK will be required to pay more. Another tranche of £500 million would take the UK contribution to £1bn. That's the equivalent of, say, three new NHS hospitals. The deal is not close-ended with Turkey and it must be expected that more demands will be made by them.

The process of Turkey's membership of the EU is also being re-energised as part of the deal and if they do join 79 million Turks would have the right to live and work in Britain and Turkey would become a significant power in the EU with the same number of votes in the European Council as Britain but more MEP's in the European Parliament. This would represent a major power and cultural shift in the EU.

The projected expansion of the EU not only includes Turkey, a country where 90% of its land mass is in Asia, but Albania, Macedonia, Montenegro and Serbia, each of which is economically undeveloped and requiring vast transfers of wealth from west to east.

Peace in Europe

It's absurd to say that the EU has kept the peace in Europe for the past 70 years.

After 1945 Germany was in no position to start another European war because unlike the aftermath of the First World War it was occupied by the victorious allied forces of the USA, UK , USSR and France. The threat to peace in Europe was the threat of invasion by the Soviet Union and its allies in the Warsaw Pact. The fact that no invasion came is due entirely to the creation of NATO and the stationing of substantial US and UK forces in Germany and, crucially, the deployment by the US of their Cruise and Pershing II strategic nuclear missiles.

The threat of conventional war in Europe came from the destabilising effect of the collapse of the Soviet Union and the break-up of the former Yugoslavia following the death of Tito.

The idea that there could be war between Germany and France, allies within NATO, is ridiculous with or without the advent of the EU.

The current threat of war in Europe comes from Russia and its determination to defend what it sees as its national interests around its borders. Here, the EU has contributed to the creation of a very dangerous situation through its open courtship of the Ukraine to become a member state.

This encouragement in competition to a trade deal offered by Russia and approved by the Russo-friendly President Vanukovych led directly to civil unrest, violent riots in which 98 people were killed and fifteen thousand injured and to the overthrow of the democratically elected President and government (distasteful as they were) to be replaced by others openly favourable to the EU and antagonistic to Russia.

Rightly or wrongly, this situation was seen in Russia as an EU-inspired coup d'etat and a direct threat to its perceived sphere of influence. Rightly or wrongly, this is turn led to the Russian-inspired civil war in eastern Ukraine and the Russian annexation of the Crimea.

Far from being an organisation responsible for keeping the peace in Europe, the crass bumbling of incompetent EU bureaucrats has, in fact, led to the greatest threat of war in Europe since the collapse of the Soviet Union.

It is NATO that has kept the peace in Europe and it is NATO that will continue to do so.

Terrorism and Security

The EU Commission itself believes that up to 5,000 Daesh terrorists have infiltrated the EU posing as refugees. Two of the killers in the Paris atrocities were later identified as sham refugees who'd gained access to the EU through Greece. Once in the EU they were able to travel freely throughout the Schengen borderless zone.

Sir Richard Dearlove, former head of MI6, has said that quitting the EU would make Britain safer as it would make it easier to deport terrorists and control our borders. He says that Britain's intelligence services "give much more" than they get in return from the EU and that the US is a much more important counter-terrorism ally than the EU.

Ronald K. Noble the former Secretary General of Interpol from 2000 to 2014 has said:

"Europe's open border arrangements, which enables travel through 26 countries without passport checks or border controls, is effectively an international passport free zone for terrorists to execute atrocities on the Continent and make their escapes."

James Clapper, the US Director of National Intelligence is quoted as saying:

"Open borders across Europe have allowed ISIL to plant sleeper cells across the Continent and in the UK, poised to launch Paris or Brussels style massacres."

What keeps the citizens of Britain as safe as can be in the current crisis is the quality of its police and security services and the "five eyes" intelligence network of the UK, US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand.

If Britain left the EU there's no reason why there should be a reduction or cessation of security co-operation with erstwhile member states or that access to Europol would be denied.

Sovereignty

During the tortuous negotiations with the "Common Market" in 1970 Britain was assured by Ted Heath that "there is no question of any erosion of essential national sovereignty". Then the European Communities Act of 1972 was railroaded through Parliament with insufficient scrutiny and did just that - it recognised the supremacy of EU Treaties over British Acts of Parliament.

Professor Vernon Bogdanor the non-partisan constitutional expert of Kings College, London says that EU membership means that Britain's parliamentary sovereignty has in practice been ceded to the EU.

Powell outlined his opposition when the House of Commons debated the European Communities Act in 1972:

"It shows first that it is an inherent consequence of accession to the Treaty of Rome that this House and Parliament will lose their legislative supremacy. It will no longer be true that law in this country is made only by or with the authority of Parliament...
The second consequence...is that this House loses its exclusive control - upon which its power and authority has been built over the centuries - over taxation and expenditure. In future, if we become part of the Community, moneys received in taxation from the citizens of this country will be spent otherwise than upon a vote of this House and without the opportunity...to debate grievance and to call for an account of the way in which those moneys are to be spent. For the first time for centuries it will be true to say that the people of this country are not taxed only upon the authority of the House of Commons.
The third consequence...is that the judicial independence of this country has to be given up. In future, if we join the Community, the citizens of this country will not only be subject to laws made elsewhere but the applicability of those laws to them will be adjudicated upon elsewhere; and the law made elsewhere and the adjudication elsewhere will override the law which is made here and the decisions of the courts of this realm."

Powell's prescience is remarkable as all his warnings and foreboding have come to pass.

Tony Benn described the passage of the 1972 Act as:

"The most formal surrender of British sovereignty and Parliamentary democracy that has ever occurred in our history."

The fact is that over 50% of Britain's laws are now handed down by the EU. They are binding on Britain's legislature and courts and cannot be ignored, repealed or changed.

Striking evidence of this surrender of sovereignty is the infamous "Factortame" case where a major clause in the Merchant Shipping Act 1988 was struck down in favour of the Spanish shipping owner who challenged the legislation as being discriminatory.

Significantly, the "Factortame" judgment was supported by the House of Lords sitting as Britain's supreme court on its interpretation of the European Communities Act. So, even an explicit Act of Parliament was deemed by Britain's own supreme court to be inferior to EU law.

But, it's not just Acts of Parliament that are set aside by the ECJ.

Much of English law is derived from the decisions of our courts where judicial precedent and case law forms the Common Law.

John Adams, the second President of the United States expressed it thus: "The liberty, the unalienable, indefensible rights of men, the honor and dignity of human nature....and the universal happiness of individuals, were never so skillfully and successfully consulted as in that most excellent monument of human art, the common law of England."

However, the Common Law that has evolved since the 12th century can and is set aside by the ECJ in its interpretation of the EU Treaties where the Common Law is deemed to be inconsistent with them.

Democracy

The fundamental problem with the EU is that the Commission - its government and executive branch - is appointed not elected and is, therefore, not democratically accountable.

The current President of the EU, Jean Claude Junker, was appointed by the European Council of Ministers. He wasn't elected by anyone.

Having been appointed not elected, Junker can then proceed to appoint the Commissioners, the equivalent of government ministers, none of whom, again, is elected.

Who gets what portfolio, e.g. trade, foreign affairs, finance, competition policy, agriculture, etc., is down to horse trading. Junker's power of patronage is staggering, and he is accountable to no one.

The EU government is not elected, it has no democratic accountability yet it initiates the legislation, regulations and directives that are binding on the member states and enforceable by the ECJ without further appeal.

Not only is the EU undemocratic it is effectively anti-democratic. Three recent instances illustrate how the EU has ridden roughshod over democratically elected politicians and governments, two of which being effectively EU-inspired coups d'etat.

Firstly, the democratically elected prime minster of Greece, George Papandreou, was forced out of office by the EU when he had the temerity to say that he would put his recently negotiated Euro bailout deal to a referendum of the Greek people. He was replaced by an EU bureaucrat and Vice-President of the EU Central Bank, Lucas Papademos who formed a "national unity" government. The Greek people got rid of them at the first opportunity, but by then they were committed to the first Euro bailout.

Secondly, the democratically elected prime minister of Italy, Silvio Burlusconi, was forced out by the EU and replaced by Mario Monti, another former EU bureaucrat and commissioner, and another "national unity" government.

Whether or not you approve of the prime ministers involved they were never-the-less elected to office by the people who then stood powerless as their elected governments were forced out and replaced by the EU in order to tow the EU line.

Thirdly, under the provisions of the 2014 EU Constitution the Commission can initiate a "rule of law mechanism" for countries that depart from democratic norms by putting a government under constitutional supervision. Ultimately, a country can be stripped of its voting rights in the EU or have funding blocked.

In a test run for these EU constitutional powers, the Commission has issued unprecedented orders to Poland, instructing their newly-elected government to concede to judges who have struck down laws passed by their own parliament.

Hungary, which has also been criticised by the Commission over constitutional questions, has pledged to fight alongside Poland to defend parliamentary sovereignty.

The Polish foreign minister has said that the new EU powers went beyond the terms of the EU that his country joined in 2004 : "This is not the Union, not the kind of membership that we have agreed to."

And, fresh from the press, it was reported in the Times of 24th May 2016 that "Junker Vows to Use New Powers to Block Far Right."

Had the Austrian people voted democratically to elect Norbert Hofer as their President, Junker, the unelected bureaucrat at the head of the Commission, is quoted as saying: "The EU will isolate and use sanctions against any far right or populist governments that are swept to power or presidential office on the wave of popular anger against immigration."
What on earth has the outcome of democratic elections in member states got to do with the EU Commission? Why should they have any input in the process? The answer is that they can. The EU Constitution, aka the Lisbon Treaty, gives them the right to do so. Britain is signed up too.

A bloody civil war was fought in Britain some 350 or so years ago and a king was beheaded to establish the principle that no laws should be passed nor taxes raised except by our own elected representatives.

Two devastating World Wars were fought in the 20th Century to prevent Britain's hard won and cherished democracy being extirpated by German Militarism and Fascism only to be surrendered to an unelected supra-national state dominated in supreme irony by Germany.

The fundamental democratic right of the people of Britain is the right for their directly elected and accountable representatives to make the laws that govern them and for those laws to be interpreted and enforced by their own sovereign courts.


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## Dash

bobclive22 said:


> David Cameron's package of EU reforms cannot be made legally binding *before the British public vote on it*, the president of the European Parliament has said.
> 
> Martin Schulz said the European Parliament could amend any deal done at today's summit and would *not necessarily even rubber-stamp it at all.*
> 
> Are you actually going to vote *IN* on the basis of this, it`s like paying cash up front for your house without first having site of the deeds. You should remember the other bit of paper and the words *Piece in our times.*
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 76861.html


Not at all, it's like entering an agreement with a cooling off period. If the deal doesn't work out, then you can walk away - just like with the EU.

We have an agreement, if for whatever reason it turns out it was a nasty trick by evil Europe then we can still exit, with or without a referendum. And I can assure you, if there is screwing over by mythical evil Europe, then there won't be this split between the voters, there will be a decisive backing to leave.


----------



## rustyintegrale

No-one can accuse Bob Geldof of not telling it as he sees it. But for me he speaks a lot of sense...

https://www.facebook.com/uniladmag/vide ... 287579984/


----------



## les

cookymunster said:


> THE EU REFERENDUM -THE CASE FOR BREXIT
> 
> ...


Strange that as I was about to post the very same post that was shared on Facebook this morning. Most of that is kept away from us and not talked about. I am voting to Leave not for myself but for my children and grandchildren. IMO most of those who will vote to remain will do so in the belief what is good fo them not the country as a whole but for personal gain and in the belief it will in some way benefit them. There are too many " i'm alright jacks" until of course they ar no longer alright. At 66 I do hope to see changes for the better for democracy the country as a whole and my children and children's children which IMO can only be achieved by leaving this corrupt evil system.

What will be interesting is to see what % in society like higher wage earners V lower wage earners vote and also by region around the country.


----------



## les

I see Blair is now telling us leaving the EU will ruin the country(more like ruin him) he must think there are weapons of mass destruction to be found with supporters of the leave voter. How can anybody believe this man or do people have such short memories when he should be on trial with Bush for war crimes. :evil: Shesssshhhhhh


----------



## rustyintegrale

A Brexit information broadcast this evening is still claiming £350 million per week to the EU. How can they do that when it has been proven to be untruthful?


----------



## Dash

Why risk having other lies and half truths exposed? Keep using the same one!


----------



## 3TT3

Watch out btw for other 5th columnists heading your way .

Youve had 
http://www.independent.ie/woman/the-gla ... 72902.html

(aka Miss piggy)
Minister for innovation n stuff (no qualifications for the ministry.. then again what minister does

over advising people in leeds at meetings with such gems as "there is no alternative to the EU" "remember your Irish roots" etc.
The actual agenda is.. "We dont care whats good for UK or not , but the Irish govt no plan for a Brexit" Go tell the british to stay in or we might have to come back from our 2 month long holliers and blow some hot air around the parliament building.

Coming to a town near you: on the "we want the United States of Europe" tour.Its the one and only Irish prime minister yaaaay....
Enda Kenny or Edna Kenny as many commentators worldwide call him , cos no one knows who he is .

see some of his moves here!





and here a close up of "The Boss" in action.
http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/music ... -1.2664767

Liten to him.. "you know he makes sense" !


----------



## rustyintegrale

Dash said:


> Why risk having other lies and half truths exposed? Keep using the same one!


 :lol: :lol: :lol: the whole thing is a comedy of errors. That ITV thing last night...


----------



## rustyintegrale

Proof (if it were needed) that the EU can't be making all our laws...

Bestiality is still legal in three EU member states - Finland, Hungary and Romania...

I'd say that's a more pressing issue than straightening bananas, but then that's another fallacy perpetuated by the Brexit mob.

The one I ate this morning was as curved as the arches on my TT.


----------



## bobclive22

_Not at all, it's like entering an agreement with a cooling off period. If the deal doesn't work out, then you can walk away - just like with the EU._

*Do you seriously believe you will get another go*.

Read Cookymunsters post and learn something.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-e ... m-36496288

Read the comments in above article, I am amazed they haven`t been deleted.

This link says it all,

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -join.html

_Half the immigration into this country has nothing to do with the EU anyway. _

We can control that half and decide who we want, like doctors, nurses, technicians, these immigrants don`t compete for the low paid jobs that are forcing down the wages of the poorest in society, Sports Direct is a prime example.


----------



## bobclive22

2h ago 17:04
*European markets slump on Brexit fears*

It was a bad end to the week as investors took fright, with *Brexit fears dominating the markets *but a fall in oil prices and nervousness ahead of next week's US Federal Reserve meeting adding to the uncertainty.
The FTSE 100 finished down 116.13 points or* 1.86% a*t 6115.76

Bond yields fell sharply and gold rose as investors took a safety first approach. *In the UK, leading shares suffered their sharpest one day percentage fall since 11 February, *while European markets also recorded major losses. Joshua Mahony, market analyst at IG, said:

The blue-chip FTSE 100 index was down 0.9 percent at 6,178.08 points. The FTSE is down around 1 percent since the start of 2016 and *13 percent below a record high reached in April 2015*.

We are seeing a lot of bulls**t.


----------



## les




----------



## les

Separated at birth.


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> We are seeing a lot of bulls**t.


Why is it you struggle so much with the concept that the possibility of us leaving the EU could negatively affect stock markets or currency values??

As you have pointed out, these markets fluctuate all the time and I'm assuming you're not suggesting that these fluctuations are caused by nothing. So why do you think the EU debate - an issue which the majority of economists agree has the potential to have a large financial impact on the country - is somehow not able to cause fluctuations in these markets?


----------



## les

Why should we trust the economists? hmmmm
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... y-bad-idea


----------



## Spandex

les said:


> Why should we trust the economists? hmmmm
> https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... y-bad-idea


If you'd bothered to read the article properly, you'd have realised that it's just making the entirely sensible point that the EU debate encompasses more topics than economics alone, so an economist can't tell you which way to vote. They do, however, know quite a lot about economics, so on that specific aspect of the debate their opinion should be listened to.

But I do understand why you'd like to discredit economists as a group - the vast majority of them believe that leaving the EU will have a negative impact on the economy for many years to come, and as it's very hard for someone with no economic qualifications to legitimately argue with that, the next best thing is to just pretend they're all completely untrustworthy and you're actually right.


----------



## John-H

les said:


> Why should we trust the economists? hmmmm
> https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... y-bad-idea


The economists actually try to model and make a science out of it based on past economic behavior as a guide. Whilst it's arguable how accurate the exact figures are, the vast majority are predicting brexit will have a big negative effect.

You seem to be encouraging everyone to dismiss the experts and believe people who use no science and haven't got a clue instead.

The article you linked says:



> "One thing that Remain campaigners are right about is that leaving the EU would be a "leap in the dark". Or as Airbus executives told staff in a letter warning against Brexit: "We simply don't know what 'out' looks like."
> 
> No country has ever left the bloc. That puts the onus on Leave campaigners to come up with more than reassurances that it will all be OK. "


Well, that seems to sum up the brexit campaign - future hope without an agreed plan over an established status quo certainty - Sudden leap into a random future versus incremental change in a controlled manner within an established framework.

You haven't proved your case for brexit. You haven't even proven why such a rash choice should be taken now and not in the future if really needed. Just because the Tory party have called a non binding referendum to satisfy their own internal squabbles and personal aspirations?

Why are you playing their game? Wouldn't it be best to vote in for economic stability and see the squabblers fall apart amongst their own bitter recriminations? Voters don't like a disunited party.


----------



## pas_55

If George Soros say's we should stay,then we should stay


----------



## les

John-H said:


> les said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why should we trust the economists? hmmmm
> https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... y-bad-idea
> 
> 
> 
> The economists actually try to model and make a science out of it based on past economic behavior as a guide. Whilst it's arguable how accurate the exact figures are, the vast majority are predicting brexit will have a big negative effect.
> 
> You seem to be encouraging everyone to dismiss the experts and believe people who use no science and haven't got a clue instead.
> 
> The article you linked says:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "One thing that Remain campaigners are right about is that leaving the EU would be a "leap in the dark". Or as Airbus executives told staff in a letter warning against Brexit: "We simply don't know what 'out' looks like."
> 
> No country has ever left the bloc. That puts the onus on Leave campaigners to come up with more than reassurances that it will all be OK. "
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well, that seems to sum up the brexit campaign - future hope without an agreed plan over an established status quo certainty - Sudden leap into a random future versus incremental change in a controlled manner within an established framework.
> 
> You haven't proved your case for brexit. You haven't even proven why such a rash choice should be taken now and not in the future if really needed. Just because the Tory party have called a non binding referendum to satisfy their own internal squabbles and personal aspirations?
> 
> Why are you playing their game? Wouldn't it be best to vote in for economic stability and see the squabblers fall apart amongst their own bitter recriminations? Voters don't like a disunited party.
Click to expand...

Who is playing who's game don't try to tell me your have all the faith them all. They are plenty of big business people saying the remain party etc are just as wrong. In thier predictions. Maybe we should believe the bankers you know the ones we had to bail out with OUR money. I have no faith in any of them. I have been on this earth 66 years and seen how this country has gone and like millions more i don't like it. That is the bottom line what I know not what might be or what might not be but recent history. Youth unemployment immigration out of control. Schools NHS unable to cope etc etc. So when it comes to vote I only see one way to make any real changes and Cameron hasn't been able to change it as he's proved.time and time again with his lies. I don't need to prove anything all I have to do is look back at how things have changed. BTW there is no such thing as economic stability it's another myth perpetrated by the remain side.


----------



## John-H

So, to summarise, you don't like how it is and you are quite prepared to press the mystery chance nuclear button with an unknown immediate, mid and long term effect. Sounds like the action of a wreckless gambler quite prepared to lose all their money. Stay away from fruit machines :wink:


----------



## les

John-H said:


> So, to summarise, you don't like how it is and you are quite prepared to press the mystery chance nuclear button with an unknown immediate, mid and long term effect. Sounds like the action of a wreckless gambler quite prepared to lose all their money. Stay away from fruit machines :!:


 Sorry whio exactly are you summarising. And you trust Cameron and the EU lol. Well good luck to us all.


----------



## John-H

Your rationale - and I challenge you to quote where I've said I trust Cameron :lol:


----------



## bobclive22

_Their are plenty of big business people saying the remain party etc are just as wrong._

Here is one of them, a real businessman doing business in the REAL WORLD.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -fear.html


----------



## John-H

bobclive22 said:


> _Their are plenty of big business people saying the remain party etc are just as wrong._
> 
> Here is one of them, a real businessman doing business in the REAL WORLD.
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -fear.html


None of then in the FTSE 100 I believe or when I last looked.



> Sir Michael Rake, chairman of BT and a fellow supporter of the In campaign, said the majority of businesses were in favour of staying in the EU.
> 
> And he said the Leave campaign were "not coming forward" with the recommendations of how the UK could operate if it we were to leave the union.
> 
> "Many of the options that are talked about - Norway, Switzerland, Canada - are not realistic," he said.
> 
> They "would require us to have the same commitments, the same free movement of labour, the same migration policies and pay into the budget as we currently do - without any influence."
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-e ... m-35901811


----------



## Spandex

les said:


> Sorry whio exactly are you summarising. And you trust Cameron and the EU lol. Well good luck to us all.


I feel like this needs clarifying, because lots of people on both sides of the debate seem incapable of getting to grips with this piece of logic - *just because someone can't be trusted doesn't mean they're wrong*. I don't trust Cameron as far as I could repeatedly kick him, but it would be a bit stupid of me to use that as evidence that everything he says must be incorrect. In fact, ironically, if everything he said was incorrect, I'd be able to trust him completely because he'd be very reliable indeed.


----------



## bobclive22

_just because someone can't be trusted doesn't mean they're wrong. _

Perhaps you might find this man a bit more trustworthy.

*Dyson* sits on several European committees. "And we've *never once during 25 years ever got any clause or measure that we wanted into a European directive.* Never once have we been able to *block the slightest thing.*"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking ... e-with-us/

Do you trust Cameron more than Dyson and Lord Bamford who actually produce the wealth of this county.


----------



## John-H

I think that's part of the problem with this debate. To know what will happen if we leave the EU is very difficult because it's a complicated situation. The only sureity is where we are now.

People who have gripes with the status quo look for a solution and many grasp this referendum opportunity as the answer. It seems an answer-all solution to them because it's simple and big and powerful. They don't want to deal with the complexity of sorting the problem from within - that's too hard. Have they ever voted for an MEP?

Justifying an exit with any proof is beyond anyone's ability, so the arguments naturally become over simplified into opinion rather than fact and part of that is bringing personalities into the debate as ammunition The subtleties of singular points of policy then get lost, so for example, just because somebody supports staying within the EU they also get accused of supporting everything another remain supporter (e.g the PM) also supports as part of the argument because exit supporters find valid points hard to find - to justify WHY we should take such a risk of exit NOW.

How is an exit going to work? Are we in the single market accepting all the EU rules we currently have an opt out for? Or are we adrift outside trying to negotiate new international deals on our own and having to pay tariffs when trading with the EU? Nobody seems to know but the irresponsible arguments continue.


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> Do you trust Cameron more than Dyson and Lord Bamford who actually produce the wealth of this county.


You quoted my post, so I'm assuming you must have read it. That only leaves the possibility you completely misunderstood every single part of it...

But to answer your completely-missing-the-point question, I don't trust Cameron one bit, I'd never heard of Lord Bamford before he became your EU guru and Dyson seems like a nice enough chap based on the few articles I've read about him. But, given that I don't really trust any of their opinions on global politics or economics enough to just go along with them blindly, my opinion of them as individuals doesn't really matter.

You do realise that if we were willing to play your pointless game we could just trot out a load of 'reliable' business bigwigs who support Remain (there are lots to choose from) and ask you, "who you trust, them or <insert slimey Leave supporting politician here>". See why it's pointless to argue about personalities? See why the big numbers and statistics suddenly become important? No, probably not, but I live in hope.


----------



## les

John-H said:


> Your rationale - and I challenge you to quote where I've said I trust Cameron :lol:


I missed the ? Which would have made it the question along with trusting the EU so not just Cameron. The man cannot deliver his promises and lies. He's had more than enough times and goes to do what he said he would do and failed. All Cameron has done is win a few very minor concessions. What confidence is there that he can do any better given his failures?


----------



## Spandex

Given that we have the opportunity to vote a different government in every 5 years, we don't have to completely rely on Cameron alone to help improve the EU in the future. Conversely, if we leave then we definitely won't be able to help improve it regardless of who we vote in.


----------



## John-H

les said:


> John-H said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your rationale - and I challenge you to quote where I've said I trust Cameron :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> I missed the ? Which would have made it the question along with trusting the EU so not just Cameron. The man cannot deliver his promises and lies. He's had more than enough times and goes to do what he said he would do and failed. All Cameron has done is win a few very minor concessions. What confidence is there that he can do any better given his failures?
Click to expand...

None - but Cameron is just for Christmas. The EU has been around far longer with fair and equitable aims and a stabilising influence. It's up to our future leaders to get on with the situation and make the best of it - not bring down the whole edifice in flames and chaos which Cameron and his party have brought us to the brink of with the game they have invited everybody to play.

Oops... same point different words


----------



## 3TT3

What about a real nice birthday present for the Queen.
Vote leave and still be able to use "God save the Queen " as a national anthem for her hundreth 
After Scotland voting to stay in the UK,itd make a nice "anus felicitas"


----------



## Shug750S

Two questions, that when the Leave Campaign guy knocked on my door he couldn't answer:

If the vote is to leave, what is the timeframe after the vote until we actually leave? And I don't mean the apparent two years the process requires in the EU, I mean until we are out.

How much will we get screwed in the interim period, and not have the power to do anything?

Sort of made me realise the Leave people don't have a clue....


----------



## Trouble4

TRENDINGEU REFERENDUMKATE MIDDLETONWEATHERDANGEROUS DOGSDAVID CAMERON Technology Money Travel Fashion Mums
Home
News UK News EU referendum explained
How long will Britain take to leave the EU if we vote for Brexit? Here's a quick guide
22:31, 23 MAY 2016 UPDATED 11:22, 24 MAY 2016
BY DAN BLOOM
Let's say Britain votes Leave on June 23. What happens next? And when do we actually quit? Here's everything you need to know

The clock will be ticking if Britain votes for Brexit. So what actually happens next?

David Cameron claims it could crash house prices, slash 800,000 jobs and lead to World War 3.

But what actually happens next if Britain votes to leave the EU on June 23?

As you might expect, walking out on Brussels doesn't happen overnight.

Just like in a divorce, we have to work out who's keeping the house, the kids and the dog.

Unlike in a divorce, everyone will be wearing suits and talking with flags behind them.

Here's a quick guide to how things work if Britain votes Leave.

AFP/Getty ImagesThey'll need a lot of crossaints for this one
How long will it take?
This one's easy - two years.

That's the time set by Article 50 of the EU Treaty, which would be used for the first time in history if Britain votes out.

It's designed to give a country time to negotiate new trade deals with the EU before formally breaking ties.

Will the clock start straight away?
It looks like it.

Technically the two years only start when David Cameron formally notifies Brussels. So he could delay the kick-off.

But he told MPs in February: "The British people would rightly expect [it] to start straight away."

He added the idea of a second lengthy pre- Brexit renegotiation was "for the birds".

What happens in that time?
The EU works on a new trade deal with Britain to prepare for the day the country leaves.

During this time Britain will still be part of the EU and have to obey EU laws.

The deal has to have the consent of the European Parliament and be thrashed out by the European Council.

Its decision won't have to be agreed by every country - but it'll still need hefty support.

It uses Qualified Majority Voting, which means 16 or more member states representing at least 65% of the EU's population must back Britain's plan.

What about when time's up?
The detail's still a bit uncertain, because no country has ever withdrawn from the EU.

But David Cameron put it like this: "Our current access to the single market would cease immediately after two years were up

"Our current trade agreements with 53 countries around the world would lapse."

This is the main argument the Prime Minister is using to claim Brexit would be a "leap in the dark".

Could it be longer than 2 years?
Yes. If the trade deal is still being thrashed out after 2 years, the time period can be extended.

But it will need the unanimous agreement of all 27 other member states.

Britain will need to agree to extend the time period too.

How does Britain join again?
If Britain one day wanted to rejoin, it's not an easy road.

We would have to apply for membership under Article 49 of the Treaty, just the same as Turkey, Albania, Macedonia, Montenegro and Serbia.

We'd have to meet a long list of requirements and just one EU state could veto our wish to join.


----------



## bobclive22

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 ... w-12062016

He couldn`t trip up Nigel no matter how hard he tried, the bit about the recent sterling fall made Marr look a bit of a chump.


----------



## bobclive22

_The EU has been around far longer with fair and equitable aims and a stabilising influence. It's up to our future leaders to get on with the situation and make the best of it - not bring down the whole edifice in flames and chaos which Cameron and his party have brought us to the brink of with the game they have invited everybody to play. _

Well if we are that important why don`t we have more bl***dy infuence, how can a small island member with no influence bring down the EU, unless the EU is about to implode, and if that is the case it`s not worth saving and we are well out of it.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/eur ... 97029.html

At the same time, the German government has many reasons not to keep mum, because the United Kingdom's withdrawal from the EU *would be a disaster for Germany.*

And it's by no means just the threat of turbulence on the financial markets or other economic consequences that concerns German politicians. _*Britain is Germany's third largest trading partner, with an export volume of 89 billion in 2016. More than 2,500 German companies are active in the country.* _Conversely, around 3,000 British companies also have subsidiaries in Germany. In the absence of the single market, these tight connections would become more complicated.

So there will be *NO DEAL* will there, it`s all bulls**t.


----------



## jamman

bobclive22 said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b07gx9c9/the-andrew-marr-show-12062016
> 
> He couldn`t trip up Nigel no matter how hard he tried, the bit about the recent sterling fall made Marr look a bit of a chump.


Don't need to trip him up the bloke is a prize twit....

Nigel, you on first name terms Bob ?

Voting "In"

You really need to take the rose tints off matey.


----------



## bobclive22

_Don't need to trip him up the bloke is a prize twit.._..

It takes one to know one, by the way was your degree in media studies, you don`t have a degree, thought so.


----------



## jamman

bobclive22 said:


> _Don't need to trip him up the bloke is a prize twit.._..
> 
> It takes one to know one, by the way was your degree in media studies, you don`t have a degree, thought so.


Oh dear Bob Fail...

Electrical Engineering :-*

"it takes one ...." last time I heard that was grammar school at lunch breaks.

Don't be aggressive just because someone disagrees with you as it makes you look a twit (again)


----------



## Dash

The thing that annoys me about Brexit and their fans is it's just playing the Daily Mail blame game. Find somebody or thing to blame for everything that is wrong in our country.

If nothing is really wrong, make some s*** up and then blame them.

The great unwashed lap it up.

For the record, I've seen some interesting and valid points put forward for the case for leaving, not one of them has been quoted here or made it into the popular press. Why not? Because it is not a passionate stirring up of angry blame.


----------



## jamman

Thing that annoys me Dash is my lovely old mum reads the Express always has done and believes everything that she reads in the rag.....


----------



## 3TT3

1 million turks comin to a seaside resort near you  express headline.

Thing is Cameron got elected/relected on providing a referendum on UK leaving the EU.
It doesnt really matter whether only 1 voter switched to Conservative or if it was a "bluff", or if he thought the mickey mouse deal "we have peace in our time" was gonna con folks.
He can blow hot air all he wants, but he provided the option,it would seem reasonable to expect something other than"oooh dont vote to leave its scary" I was only kidding when I promised a referendum,Ive no plans if the vote is to leave..cmon guys cant you take a joke?


----------



## Spandex

3TT3 said:


> 1 million turks comin to a seaside resort near you


Is the fact that they're Turkish an issue? Just curious as I've heard the Turks mentioned a lot by the Leave campaign.


----------



## Dash

I think the sugesstion is it's yet more second rate foreigners who have it so bad they are all naturally going to want to come and live in utopian Britain.

Aka, xenophobia to thinly veiled racism.


----------



## bobclive22

_The thing that annoys me about Brexit and their fans is it's just playing the Daily Mail blame game. _

So your jobs are safe if you remain.

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/1002027 ... lose_ours/


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> _The thing that annoys me about Brexit and their fans is it's just playing the Daily Mail blame game. _
> 
> So your jobs are safe if you remain.
> 
> http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/1002027 ... lose_ours/


I've read the article, and can't see the bit where it confirms that any of this would have been different had the UK not been a member of the EU.

Presumably Ford would still have been able to apply for the EU loan to develop their factory, and presumably they'd still have closed their factory here. The fact is that many other foreign-owned companies might also choose to close their factories here if we leave the EU because it could become less economically viable.


----------



## Dash

Indeed - Ford has clearly found it's more cost effective manufacturing for Europe to move their operation to Turkey. I can't see how leaving the EU and the common market would make us more attractive to international business - less so is more likely in my opinion.


----------



## John-H

At the moment our car manufacturers can sell cars in Europe without tariff. If we are no longer in Europe then what?


----------



## Shug750S

John-H said:


> At the moment our car manufacturers can sell cars in Europe without tariff. If we are no longer in Europe then what?


Would guess Honda, Nissan, Toyota, JLR, Mini, Vauxhall etc. would look to relocate to elsewhere in the medium term or when factory upgrades needed to avoid tarrifs...


----------



## les

If you want lies here are a few in their own contradicting words.

Proof Cameron is lying in his own words about Turkey not joining the EU or is that him wanting them to join? Seems he can't make his mind up but then he might change his mind again after the referendum. 





More lies on Immigration and broken promises.





There are lots more in their own words. How many would you like to see before people realise they will tell you one thing and do or achieve little in fact even make things even worse. Millions have had enough of it and see only one solution. Now I am being told my pension might suffer. They must be keeping the reductions in disability and unemployment benefit cuts for a few days before the referendum.


----------



## les

John-H said:


> At the moment our car manufacturers can sell cars in Europe without tariff. If we are no longer in Europe then what?


 We can put tariffs on imports of Audi, Seat, Skoda, VW, BMW, Alfa Romeo, Mercedes, Ferrari.


----------



## Shug750S

les said:


> John-H said:
> 
> 
> 
> At the moment our car manufacturers can sell cars in Europe without tariff. If we are no longer in Europe then what?
> 
> 
> 
> We can put tariffs on imports of Audi, Seat, Skoda, VW, BMW, Alfa Romeo, Mercedes, Ferrari.
Click to expand...

We can, but the ones that may relocate from here will mean lots of jobs gone, and they will then need to be imported so will cost more as tarrifs added... Plus Audis will be even more expensive if tarrifs added to cost price


----------



## les

Shug750S said:


> les said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> John-H said:
> 
> 
> 
> At the moment our car manufacturers can sell cars in Europe without tariff. If we are no longer in Europe then what?
> 
> 
> 
> We can put tariffs on imports of Audi, Seat, Skoda, VW, BMW, Alfa Romeo, Mercedes, Ferrari.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We can, but the ones that may relocate from here will mean lots of jobs gone, and they will then need to be imported so will cost more as tarrifs added... Plus Audis will be even more expensive if tarrifs added to cost price
Click to expand...

May if and buts. Yes all the luxury UK cars will be more expensive in the crumbling EU and so it goes on.


----------



## Spandex

les said:


> If you want lies here are a few in their own contradicting words.
> 
> Proof Cameron is lying in his own words about Turkey not joining the EU or is that him wanting them to join? Seems he can't make his mind up but then he might change his mind again after the referendum.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More lies on Immigration and broken promises.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are lots more in their own words. How many would you like to see before people realise they will tell you one thing and do or achieve little in fact even make things even worse. Millions have had enough of it and see only one solution. Now I am being told my pension might suffer. They must be keeping the reductions in disability and unemployment benefit cuts for a few days before the referendum.


In the interest of providing a balanced argument, I know you probably also wanted to post the video showing Boris Johnson arguing in favour of allowing Turkey to join (I'll help by posting it for you):

https://www.buzzfeed.com/jimwaterson/bo ... .sd6RZgB5Y

Not that any of this matters as Turkey are nowhere near being able to join the EU. Since their application in 1987, they've managed to close only one of the 35 chapters required. We could be looking at tens of years before they're eligible, and even then any member could veto them.


----------



## bobclive22

General secretaries of Unite, Unison, GMB and Usdaw warn *leaving the EU* would allow a Tory government to *dismantle workers' rights*

The huge increases in migrants over the last decade were partly due to a politically motivated attempt by ministers to radically change the country and "rub the Right's nose in diversity", according to Andrew Neather, a former adviser to Tony Blair, Jack Straw and David Blunkett.

He said *Labour's relaxation of controls was a deliberate plan to "open up the UK to mass migration*" but that ministers were nervous and reluctant to discuss such a move publicly for fear it would *alienate its "core working class vote*".

The *UNITE UNION* were in Nottingham today demonstrating against an employment agency who supplied labour to *Sports Direct*. As seen above the Labour government deliberately encouraged mass immigration, this allowed the likes of Sports direct to force down wages and undermine workers conditions of employment. Unite came over to me, I inquired why Unite were demonstrating over zero rate hours yet were supporting the remain campaign and mass immigration which was the route cause of the spread of zero rate hours in the first place, they walked away, morons.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... viser.html


----------



## les

Fact is if we vote out who will give one for whoever campaigns for what other countries joining the EU after us. I doubt many of us in the UK will be concerned if Turkey and the Balkan states of Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia and Albania join the EU. Many people may well be concerned if those countries do join the EU should we remain.


----------



## les




----------



## bobclive22

BREXIT TSUNAMI' UK exit would cause 'BIG problems' for GERMAN banks, watchdog warns.

Who would have thunk it.

*Smujsmith*
Probably why the head of German finance Herr Von Dontmentiondewar, is spouting scaremongering rubbish on behalf of CaMoron in today's news media. It's very telling that the *banksters *now admit that the EUrozone is being propped up by British payments to the EU and their close relationship with our markets. *There is of course no need to end any of that as we leave the EU club, we can still all work together using the same agreements for trade that currently exist, it simply means that we, the British will no longer pay to be ruled by unelected socialist Bureacrats like Junket Juncker and remember Herbert Von Rumpypumpy ?* Don't be afraid of this rubbish Britons, the Germans are canny enough to realise that if we leave, they pick up the tab for EU failure. This guy is just looking to maintain access to their "Mülch cow". Vote LEAVE on the 23rd and wake up a free man on the 24th.

*Terentius1941*
IF Britain votes out of Europe, Germany's biggest banks would suffer a huge hit that would shake the eurozone's financial system to its core, a top policymaker in Frankfurt has admitted>>>> Am I supposed to be worried and care? *My family fought and died in two wars to defeat German aspirations of European dominance and Merkel is trying for the Fourth Reich and Britain once more stands in Germany's path. *Are we in Britain supposed to worry that the German banks and the euro will take a hit? Germany wouldn't care if it got UK in the same position as Greece. Merkel would be delighted so it's up to all loyal UK citizens to ensure they VOTE BREXIT ON JUNE 23 and make the EU fall apart.

http://thefinancetimes.co.uk/news-analy ... hdog-warns


----------



## Dash

Perhaps we should have a look at what Boris has to say on Turkey joining, he does make some valid points.


----------



## bobclive22

_Perhaps we should have a look at what Boris has to say on Turkey joining, he does make some valid points_

So he's changed his mind. Big deal. *A lot has happened since 2006*! Like the Global Financial Crisis and the *bankrupting of Greece, Spain, Italy and Portugal.* And the Arab Spring, and the rise if ISIS *plus 330,000 immigrants into the UK per year*, Is there any one who has not changed their minds about things in the light of world events?

*Cameron changed HIS mind in just a few months.*


----------



## les

bobclive22 said:


> _Perhaps we should have a look at what Boris has to say on Turkey joining, he does make some valid points_
> 
> So he's changed his mind. Big deal. *A lot has happened since 2006*! Like the Global Financial Crisis and the *bankrupting of Greece, Spain, Italy and Portugal.* And the Arab Spring, and the rise if ISIS *plus 330,000 immigrants into the UK per year*, Is there any one who has not changed their minds about things in the light of world events?
> 
> *Cameron changed HIS mind in just a few months.*


 [smiley=dude.gif]


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> Cameron changed HIS mind in just a few months.


It's funny, because if a Remain campaigner changed their mind about something it would be seen by you as a reason not to trust anything they say, and therefore proof that the entire Remain campaign is flawed. When a Leave campaigner changes their mind, it's just a sign of common sense.


----------



## fut1a

The *UNITE UNION* were in Nottingham today demonstrating against an employment agency who supplied labour to *Sports Direct*. As seen above the Labour government deliberately encouraged mass immigration, this allowed the likes of Sports direct to force down wages and undermine workers conditions of employment. Unite came over to me, I inquired why Unite were demonstrating over zero rate hours yet were supporting the remain campaign and mass immigration which was the route cause of the spread of zero rate hours in the first place, they walked away, morons.

Unite, would be pretty busy around here if they wanted to protest about this.

The workers in our local job agency are Polish and all the best jobs go to the Polish that hang around in there.

There are quite a few factories that I know of that advertise directly in foreign countries for their employees. These factories used to be a stop gap for school leavers who wanted a pay packet whilst they looked for a better job. Now local people don't get a look in.

Some areas in two of our local parks are no go areas because there are always gangs of foreign guys drinking and shouting obscenities at any woman brave enough to go near there. My wife won't walk the dog in this area of the park anymore.

A couple of months ago an old age pensioner was driving along the local high street when his car was hit in the side by a drunken foreign person running a red light, the pensioner was taken to hospital in a bad way,

A friend of mine is a part time Fireman and he was called out last week when he was at my house. A couple of hrs later when he returned I asked what the incident was, he said a foreign lad was racing round by the skips and hit a local taxi driver head on. The taxi driver was hurt quite badly, and the foreign driver gave false details.

My window cleaner was telling me a few weeks ago that he was driving through the high street at around lunch time and a guy was about a foot away from the kerb, in the road with his trousers around his ankles having a pee. He shouted over to him as he was going past and he was not too sure what foreign language he was mumbling, but he had obviously had a skin full.

Theses are examples of why it peeves me off and I could go on with more examples but I am sure you get my drift, and don't get me started on trying to get a doctors appointment.

This is why my wife and I have just posted our postal vote cards with a get out of the EU on them.


----------



## John-H

bobclive22 said:


> ... *My family fought and died in two wars to defeat German aspirations of European dominance and Merkel is trying for the Fourth Reich and Britain once more stands in Germany's path. *Are we in Britain supposed to worry that the German banks and the euro will take a hit? Germany wouldn't care if it got UK in the same position as Greece. Merkel would be delighted so it's up to all loyal UK citizens to ensure they VOTE BREXIT ON JUNE 23 and make the EU fall apart. ...


What an appalling thing to say.

Such a result may well lead to a self destructive outcome. If we harm Europe we harm ourselves. It's interesting to read these financial comments here:

https://www.poundsterlinglive.com/gbp-l ... ate-latest

The recent moves in opinion poles towards brexit from a reactionary public are fuelling some significant preparations and predictions for a major drop in Sterling. Conversely the possibility of a subsequent rise in Sterling against the Euro may also be the result but only because the Euro will fall against the Dollar taking Sterling with it. So you could well have your wish.

Well lets all go to hell in a handcart shall we? Reminds me of the last days of the Roman empire with Nero about to set the place on fire and people jostling for self interested position unable to see beyond their own noses. As Claudius said, "*Let All the Poisons That Lurk in the Mud . . . Hatch Out"*


----------



## les

if you want appalling then here ya go. Osborne is telling us pensioners we could be £32,000 worse off if we leave the UE and yet pensions are protected by the governments own triple lock.Now they are showing a poster of a pensioner with empty purse now that is a real disgraceful and appalling thing to say and show bringing scaremongering to a new deplorable high. There are lies and damn lies and then there are government lies. [smiley=argue.gif]


----------



## jamman

fut1a said:


> The *UNITE UNION* were in Nottingham today demonstrating against an employment agency who supplied labour to *Sports Direct*. As seen above the Labour government deliberately encouraged mass immigration, this allowed the likes of Sports direct to force down wages and undermine workers conditions of employment. Unite came over to me, I inquired why Unite were demonstrating over zero rate hours yet were supporting the remain campaign and mass immigration which was the route cause of the spread of zero rate hours in the first place, they walked away, morons.
> 
> Unite, would be pretty busy around here if they wanted to protest about this.
> 
> The workers in our local job agency are Polish and all the best jobs go to the Polish that hang around in there.
> 
> There are quite a few factories that I know of that advertise directly in foreign countries for their employees. These factories used to be a stop gap for school leavers who wanted a pay packet whilst they looked for a better job. Now local people don't get a look in.
> 
> Some areas in two of our local parks are no go areas because there are always gangs of foreign guys drinking and shouting obscenities at any woman brave enough to go near there. My wife won't walk the dog in this area of the park anymore.
> 
> A couple of months ago an old age pensioner was driving along the local high street when his car was hit in the side by a drunken foreign person running a red light, the pensioner was taken to hospital in a bad way,
> 
> A friend of mine is a part time Fireman and he was called out last week when he was at my house. A couple of hrs later when he returned I asked what the incident was, he said a foreign lad was racing round by the skips and hit a local taxi driver head on. The taxi driver was hurt quite badly, and the foreign driver gave false details.
> 
> My window cleaner was telling me a few weeks ago that he was driving through the high street at around lunch time and a guy was about a foot away from the kerb, in the road with his trousers around his ankles having a pee. He shouted over to him as he was going past and he was not too sure what foreign language he was mumbling, but he had obviously had a skin full.
> 
> Theses are examples of why it peeves me off and I could go on with more examples but I am sure you get my drift, and don't get me started on trying to get a doctors appointment.
> 
> This is why my wife and I have just posted our postal vote cards with a get out of the EU on them.


Dear oh dear. :roll: :lol:

Sometimes I'm embarrassed to be English when I read rubbish like the above.


----------



## Spandex

les said:


> if you want appalling then here ya go. Osborne is telling us pensioners we could be £32,000 worse off if we leave the UE and yet pensions are protected by the governments own triple lock.Now they are showing a poster of a pensioner with empty purse now that is a real disgraceful and appalling thing to say and show bringing scaremongering to a new deplorable high. There are lies and damn lies and then there are government lies.


Stop falling for the spin. The Leave campaign are guilty of just as much scaremongering as the Remain campaign - the only difference is that their PR people got in early with the 'project fear' accusations and it stuck. The standard rhetoric from Vote Leave is:

* immigration will increase out of control
* Turkey will join the EU soon
* murderers and rapists are clamouring to get to the UK
* terrorists will flock to our shores
* the EU will take more power from us
* migrants will steal all our jobs
* migrants will steal all our houses
* migrants will destroy the NHS

I'm sure there's more stuff from their crystal ball... But the point is, when Leave campaigners make up this stuff, supporters like you lap it up and don't care that it's all just scaremongering speculation. If the Remain campaign makes up a load of scaremongering speculation (and unfortunately they do), it's "appalling"...


----------



## leopard

jamman said:


> fut1a said:
> 
> 
> 
> The *UNITE UNION* were in Nottingham today demonstrating against an employment agency who supplied labour to *Sports Direct*. As seen above the Labour government deliberately encouraged mass immigration, this allowed the likes of Sports direct to force down wages and undermine workers conditions of employment. Unite came over to me, I inquired why Unite were demonstrating over zero rate hours yet were supporting the remain campaign and mass immigration which was the route cause of the spread of zero rate hours in the first place, they walked away, morons.
> 
> Unite, would be pretty busy around here if they wanted to protest about this.
> 
> The workers in our local job agency are Polish and all the best jobs go to the Polish that hang around in there.
> 
> There are quite a few factories that I know of that advertise directly in foreign countries for their employees. These factories used to be a stop gap for school leavers who wanted a pay packet whilst they looked for a better job. Now local people don't get a look in.
> 
> Some areas in two of our local parks are no go areas because there are always gangs of foreign guys drinking and shouting obscenities at any woman brave enough to go near there. My wife won't walk the dog in this area of the park anymore.
> 
> A couple of months ago an old age pensioner was driving along the local high street when his car was hit in the side by a drunken foreign person running a red light, the pensioner was taken to hospital in a bad way,
> 
> A friend of mine is a part time Fireman and he was called out last week when he was at my house. A couple of hrs later when he returned I asked what the incident was, he said a foreign lad was racing round by the skips and hit a local taxi driver head on. The taxi driver was hurt quite badly, and the foreign driver gave false details.
> 
> My window cleaner was telling me a few weeks ago that he was driving through the high street at around lunch time and a guy was about a foot away from the kerb, in the road with his trousers around his ankles having a pee. He shouted over to him as he was going past and he was not too sure what foreign language he was mumbling, but he had obviously had a skin full.
> 
> Theses are examples of why it peeves me off and I could go on with more examples but I am sure you get my drift, and don't get me started on trying to get a doctors appointment.
> 
> This is why my wife and I have just posted our postal vote cards with a get out of the EU on them.
> 
> 
> 
> Dear oh dear. :roll: :lol:
> 
> Sometimes I'm embarrassed to be English when I read rubbish like the above.
Click to expand...

Why ?

I'm sure you'd feel some empathy if it was happening on your doorstep or perhaps it is and you don't care ?


----------



## leopard

Spandex said:


> les said:
> 
> 
> 
> if you want appalling then here ya go. Osborne is telling us pensioners we could be £32,000 worse off if we leave the UE and yet pensions are protected by the governments own triple lock.Now they are showing a poster of a pensioner with empty purse now that is a real disgraceful and appalling thing to say and show bringing scaremongering to a new deplorable high. There are lies and damn lies and then there are government lies.
> 
> 
> 
> Stop falling for the spin. The Leave campaign are guilty of just as much scaremongering as the Remain campaign - the only difference is that their PR people got in early with the 'project fear' accusations and it stuck. The standard rhetoric from Vote Leave is:
> 
> * immigration will increase out of control
> * Turkey will join the EU soon
> * murderers and rapists are clamouring to get to the UK
> * terrorists will flock to our shores
> * the EU will take more power from us
> * migrants will steal all our jobs
> * migrants will steal all our houses
> * migrants will destroy the NHS
> 
> I'm sure there's more stuff from their crystal ball... But the point is, when Leave campaigners make up this stuff, supporters like you lap it up and don't care that it's all just scaremongering speculation. If the Remain campaign makes up a load of scaremongering speculation (and unfortunately they do), it's "appalling"...
Click to expand...

Who says it's spin ?

Half of what you've quoted on the list is reality now :lol:


----------



## Dash

Such tunnel vision. Some foreigners do or get involved in bad things. But equally so do some existing residents. Concentrating on only the bad things foreigners are involved in is just fueling irrational xenophobia.

You also started off by saying labour actively encouraged immigration - why would being out of the EU change their policy? If they wanted immigration and we weren't in the EU they would be free to still allow EU people move freely. Something which is likely to be required anyway to remain trading in the free market.


----------



## jamman

leopard said:


> jamman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fut1a said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is why my wife and I have just posted our postal vote cards with a get out of the EU on them.
> 
> 
> 
> Dear oh dear. :roll: :lol:
> 
> Sometimes I'm embarrassed to be English when I read rubbish like the above.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why ?
> 
> I'm sure you'd feel some empathy if it was happening on your doorstep or perhaps it is and you don't care ?
Click to expand...

I live in Spalding with a beautiful Polish lady and we have a mixed race daughter so yes I think I know what I'm talking about...

I have friends across all the countries that have been slated and many but not all of the comments are quite simply laughable.

If you don't know why you should be embarrassed then it's too late to try and educate you I fear.


----------



## fut1a

jamman said:


> fut1a said:
> 
> 
> 
> The *UNITE UNION* were in Nottingham today demonstrating against an employment agency who supplied labour to *Sports Direct*. As seen above the Labour government deliberately encouraged mass immigration, this allowed the likes of Sports direct to force down wages and undermine workers conditions of employment. Unite came over to me, I inquired why Unite were demonstrating over zero rate hours yet were supporting the remain campaign and mass immigration which was the route cause of the spread of zero rate hours in the first place, they walked away, morons.
> 
> Unite, would be pretty busy around here if they wanted to protest about this.
> 
> The workers in our local job agency are Polish and all the best jobs go to the Polish that hang around in there.
> 
> There are quite a few factories that I know of that advertise directly in foreign countries for their employees. These factories used to be a stop gap for school leavers who wanted a pay packet whilst they looked for a better job. Now local people don't get a look in.
> 
> Some areas in two of our local parks are no go areas because there are always gangs of foreign guys drinking and shouting obscenities at any woman brave enough to go near there. My wife won't walk the dog in this area of the park anymore.
> 
> A couple of months ago an old age pensioner was driving along the local high street when his car was hit in the side by a drunken foreign person running a red light, the pensioner was taken to hospital in a bad way,
> 
> A friend of mine is a part time Fireman and he was called out last week when he was at my house. A couple of hrs later when he returned I asked what the incident was, he said a foreign lad was racing round by the skips and hit a local taxi driver head on. The taxi driver was hurt quite badly, and the foreign driver gave false details.
> 
> My window cleaner was telling me a few weeks ago that he was driving through the high street at around lunch time and a guy was about a foot away from the kerb, in the road with his trousers around his ankles having a pee. He shouted over to him as he was going past and he was not too sure what foreign language he was mumbling, but he had obviously had a skin full.
> 
> Theses are examples of why it peeves me off and I could go on with more examples but I am sure you get my drift, and don't get me started on trying to get a doctors appointment.
> 
> This is why my wife and I have just posted our postal vote cards with a get out of the EU on them.
> 
> 
> 
> Dear oh dear. :roll: :lol:
> 
> Sometimes I'm embarrassed to be English when I read rubbish like the above.
Click to expand...

I am more embarrassed to be English when I see what some of the fans are getting up to in France. It shouldn't embarrass you to read the fact that my wife is afraid to walk the dog in the park. The problem is that the truth hurts the remain campaign. I am not scaremongering like the politicians I am stating facts, the facts that some fortunate people don't have to live with.

We have enough home grown idiots of our own without importing more.

At the end of the day there is nothing wrong with controlled migration. How can you ensure that public services remain fit for purpose if you have no idea on how many people are going to use those services.

Oh by the way, I am not against foreigners, hell my dad is Italian he came over here when he was 17. I have relatives in southern Italy who I visit each year. I hate them really though because they are not English.


----------



## leopard

jamman said:


> Dear oh dear. :roll: :lol:
> 
> Sometimes I'm embarrassed to be English when I read rubbish like the above.





leopard said:


> Why ?
> 
> I'm sure you'd feel some empathy if it was happening on your doorstep or perhaps it is and you don't care ?





jamman said:


> I live in Spalding with a beautiful Polish lady and we have a mixed race daughter so yes I think I know what I'm talking about...
> 
> I have friends across all the countries that have been slated and many but not all of the comments are quite simply laughable.
> 
> If you don't know why you should be embarrassed then it's too late to try and educate you I fear.


Congratulations,I'm married to a German women who is also beautiful.Does this somehow make me more loyal to the European cause and more qualified because of that ...hell no :roll:

Do I see what's going on in our country with unprecedented levels of immigration and the effect this is having on public services and communities,er yes.People don't need to be educated on the intricacies of the EU when they can see what's happening with their own eyes.


----------



## les

leopard said:


> Spandex said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> les said:
> 
> 
> 
> if you want appalling then here ya go. Osborne is telling us pensioners we could be £32,000 worse off if we leave the UE and yet pensions are protected by the governments own triple lock.Now they are showing a poster of a pensioner with empty purse now that is a real disgraceful and appalling thing to say and show bringing scaremongering to a new deplorable high. There are lies and damn lies and then there are government lies.
> 
> 
> 
> Stop falling for the spin. The Leave campaign are guilty of just as much scaremongering as the Remain campaign - the only difference is that their PR people got in early with the 'project fear' accusations and it stuck. The standard rhetoric from Vote Leave is:
> 
> * immigration will increase out of control
> * Turkey will join the EU soon
> * murderers and rapists are clamouring to get to the UK
> * terrorists will flock to our shores
> * the EU will take more power from us
> * migrants will steal all our jobs
> * migrants will steal all our houses
> * migrants will destroy the NHS
> 
> I'm sure there's more stuff from their crystal ball... But the point is, when Leave campaigners make up this stuff, supporters like you lap it up and don't care that it's all just scaremongering speculation. If the Remain campaign makes up a load of scaremongering speculation (and unfortunately they do), it's "appalling"...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Who says it's spin ?
> 
> Half of what you've quoted on the list is reality now :lol:
Click to expand...

More than half and it's not getting any better. As i see it with our own eyes I don't need anybody to tell me put spin on it or denigh it.


----------



## John-H

les said:


> if you want appalling then here ya go. Osborne is telling us pensioners we could be £32,000 worse off if we leave the UE and yet pensions are protected by the governments own triple lock.Now they are showing a poster of a pensioner with empty purse now that is a real disgraceful and appalling thing to say and show bringing scaremongering to a new deplorable high. There are lies and damn lies and then there are government lies. [smiley=argue.gif]


What do you expect if you crash and burn the economy? There have to be consequences of such a massive change in our situation from leaving the EU. It underpins our trade and balance of payments.

The status quo is stable - change will have an effect

Really it's the leave side that should be giving a fair warning about the risks of their proposal but they are not going to do that of course. Consequences are highlighted by the remain side and you scoff. I'm sure you'd complain about the lack of a warning when you end up the worse for it.

Do you think investment and jobs moving away from the UK is a price worth paying? Perhaps you didn't pick up on the financial reports of investment decisions put on hold pending the outcome of the referendum, of the financial centre moving from London to Frankfurt long term if we are no longer in Europe. Of trade tariffs being imposed and trade deals needing to be negotiated country by country - not the easy EU trade movement we have now - causing years of reduced trade - all of which equals recession and a depressed economy. You think all that has no consequence to things like pensions and public services?

How are you going to pay for all of this? If you are right and all the financial experts are wrong then tell us - What is your plan and what is the evidence that it's not just fantasy land wishful thinking? Leaving the EU has never been done before so tell us how you are going to look after us all.

*Plan please + evidence that it will work.* :!:


----------



## les

John-H said:


> les said:
> 
> 
> 
> if you want appalling then here ya go. Osborne is telling us pensioners we could be £32,000 worse off if we leave the UE and yet pensions are protected by the governments own triple lock.Now they are showing a poster of a pensioner with empty purse now that is a real disgraceful and appalling thing to say and show bringing scaremongering to a new deplorable high. There are lies and damn lies and then there are government lies. [smiley=argue.gif]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What do you expect if you crash and burn the economy? There have to be consequences of such a massive change in our situation from leaving the EU. It underpins our trade and balance of payments.
> 
> The status quo is stable - change will have an effect
> 
> Really it's the leave side that should be giving a fair warning about the risks of their proposal but they are not going to do that of course. Consequences are highlighted by the remain side and you scoff. I'm sure you'd complain about the lack of a warning when you end up the worse for it.
> 
> Do you think investment and jobs moving away from the UK is a price worth paying? Perhaps you didn't pick up on the financial reports of investment decisions put on hold pending the outcome of the referendum, of the financial centre moving from London to Frankfurt long term if we are no longer in Europe. Of trade tariffs being imposed and trade deals needing to be negotiated country by country - not the easy EU trade movement we have now - causing years of reduced trade - all of which equals recession and a depressed economy. You think all that has no consequence to things like pensions and public services?
> 
> How are you going to pay for all of this? If you are right and all the financial experts are wrong then tell us - What is your plan and what is the evidence that it's not just fantasy land wishful thinking? Leaving the EU has never been done before so tell us how you are going to look after us all.
> 
> *Plan please + evidence that it will work.* :!:
Click to expand...

Far to many questions, I was simply pointing out the above lie one of many of course. BTW I worked all my life paid my taxes through PAYE etc etc unlike many of the rich. All I am asking for is what I was told I would get and deserve nothing more nothing less. I believe like millions more we will be better off out of this corrupt cartel and while there is still a smidgen of democracy I have the right to do something about it. Don't keep lecturing me about corrupt financial institutions telling me of doom and gloom when I want that I will ask the bankers you know the ones I mean those I helped bail out not so long ago.


----------



## John-H

You are evading the question. What is your plan plus evidence?

You keep telling everyone to leave but how are you going to manage the economy and pay for all of this? Tell us?


----------



## les

John-H said:


> You are evading the question. What is your plan plus evidence?
> 
> You keep telling everyone to leave but how are you going to manage the economy? Tell us?


 Which of the many overburdening questions do you want me to answer? Why can't you see the interview with Osborne exposed him and his lies is it so difficult for you. I have made my choice like millions more now let the people speak. You listen to many of those who got us into some of the messes we have seen in recent years and I will listen to what I have witnessed in the last 66 years and make my judgement based on that. Do I trust financial institutions? No that is my answer. The economy will be managed as it had been for hundreds of yours pre EU or similar. We will know soon enough even if I expect us to remain so don't fret none, well unless you find yourself out of a job. Now I am off to enjoy my retirement. 

BTW the question is in or out.

Retired and still paying tax on my hard earned pension.


----------



## leopard

les said:


> will know soon enough even if I expect us to remain so don't fret none, well unless you find yourself out of a job. Now I am off to enjoy my retirement.


I wouldn't be too sure les.

The polls are looking quite healthy for the out campaign and the Sun newspaper(the Tory propaganda rag for the unwashed  ) is now supporting the out campaign as well.

Momentum is gathering pace...


----------



## les

leopard said:


> les said:
> 
> 
> 
> will know soon enough even if I expect us to remain so don't fret none, well unless you find yourself out of a job. Now I am off to enjoy my retirement.
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't be too sure les.
> 
> The polls are looking quite healthy for the out campaign and the Sun newspaper(the Tory propaganda rag for the unwashed  ) is now supporting the out campaign as well.
> 
> Momentum is gathering pace...
Click to expand...

Oh no we are all doomed, not the scum [smiley=bigcry.gif]


----------



## John-H

les said:


> John-H said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are evading the question. What is your plan plus evidence?
> 
> You keep telling everyone to leave but how are you going to manage the economy? Tell us?
> 
> 
> 
> Which of the many overburdening questions do you want me to answer? Why can't you see the interview with Osborne exposed him and his lies is it so difficult for you. I have made my choice like millions more now let the people speak. You listen to many of those who got us into some of the messes we have seen in recent years and I will listen to what I have witnessed in the last 66 years and make my judgement based on that. Do I trust financial institutions? No that is my answer. The economy will be managed as it had been for hundreds of yours pre EU or similar. We will know soon enough even if I expect us to remain so don't fret none, well unless you find yourself out of a job. Now I am off to enjoy my retirement.
> 
> BTW the question is in or out.
> 
> Retired and still paying tax on my hard earned pension.
Click to expand...

Does the inability to provide any sort of plan and any sort of evidence that it will work start to ring any alarm bells or give any inkling of a suggestion of doubt that there might not be one and the leave campaigners don't have a clue?


----------



## les

John-H said:


> les said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> John-H said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are evading the question. What is your plan plus evidence?
> 
> You keep telling everyone to leave but how are you going to manage the economy? Tell us?
> 
> 
> 
> Which of the many overburdening questions do you want me to answer? Why can't you see the interview with Osborne exposed him and his lies is it so difficult for you. I have made my choice like millions more now let the people speak. You listen to many of those who got us into some of the messes we have seen in recent years and I will listen to what I have witnessed in the last 66 years and make my judgement based on that. Do I trust financial institutions? No that is my answer. The economy will be managed as it had been for hundreds of yours pre EU or similar. We will know soon enough even if I expect us to remain so don't fret none, well unless you find yourself out of a job. Now I am off to enjoy my retirement.
> 
> BTW the question is in or out.
> 
> Retired and still paying tax on my hard earned pension.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Does the inability to provide any sort of plan and any sort of evidence that it will work start to ring any alarm bells or give any inkling of a suggestion of doubt that there might not be one and the leave campaigners don't have a clue?
Click to expand...

Simply your misguided view. The stay brigade are worried now and not as confident or cock you anymore


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## John-H

les said:


> Simply your misguided view. The stay brigade are worried now and not as confident or cock you anymore


Too right I'm worried but that's because I don't have my head suck in the sand.

So you've no plan? No idea how you are going to pay for what you're proposing? Can you even say if you intend to rejoin the single market to keep trade going?


----------



## Spandex

les said:


> The stay brigade are worried now and not as confident or cock you anymore


The 'stay brigade' being worried doesn't make you right. It just means they understand the consequences (and likelihood) of you being wrong.


----------



## les

John-H said:


> les said:
> 
> 
> 
> Simply your misguided view. The stay brigade are worried now and not as confident or cock you anymore
> 
> 
> 
> Too right I'm worried but that's because I don't have my head suck in the sand.
> 
> So you've no plan? No idea how you are going to pay for what you're proposing? Can you even say if you intend to rejoin the single market to keep trade going?
Click to expand...

I don't need a plan that's why we elect MPS to do it for us and pay them very well. I do have a dream however. Get you head out the sand the coffee is on.


----------



## John-H

les said:


> John-H said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> les said:
> 
> 
> 
> Simply your misguided view. The stay brigade are worried now and not as confident or cock you anymore
> 
> 
> 
> Too right I'm worried but that's because I don't have my head suck in the sand.
> 
> So you've no plan? No idea how you are going to pay for what you're proposing? Can you even say if you intend to rejoin the single market to keep trade going?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't need a plan that's why we elect MPS to do it for us and pay them very well. I do have a dream however. Get you head out the sand the coffee is on.
Click to expand...

Thing is Les, those MPs supporting brexit don't have a plan either and you've clearly not even asked them about a plan because you can't provide an answer.

That's what's been distinctly lacking - a plan for the economy. Nobody seems to be able to provide one. They don't even know if we'll rejoin the single market or not. How can these people be trusted with the most important thing - the economy? Wreck the economy and you wreck everything.


----------



## les

John-H said:


> Thing is Les, those MPs supporting brexit don't have a plan either and you've clearly not even asked them about a plan because you can't provide an answer.
> 
> That's what's been distinctly lacking - a plan for the economy. Nobody seems to be able to provide one. They don't even know if we'll rejoin the single market or not. How can these people be trusted with the most important thing - the economy? Wreck the economy and you wreck everything.


All will be revealed and IF we leave then all those MPs/government will have to ensure they earn their money. There are a number of trade options if we leave we will trade with the world as we did before the EU we will set up trade agreements. Countries will be falling over themselves to get in place trade agreements. The trade agreements will be there but first you have to get out of the one we are in yet. IF we leave the government will have a mandate to negotiate with the world. Nobody says it's going to be easy and there are many unknowns just like what is being kept under the blankets by the EU for after the vote but if we vote to leave at least that won't be unknown. Negotiation is the plan as it's always been for hundreds of years at least there is no change there.


----------



## cheechy

Be in no doubt a vote to leave will cost the country 100s of thousands of jobs and years of recession.

The very fear of leaving has the pound and the markets in turmoil, especially now given how close this is looking.

If Scotland vote to remain comfortably but uk vote to leave as a whole (as is being touted) then I suspect the uk will break up this time around given this will provide the snp a mandate to try again. I for one am a firm supporter of the uk and voted to remain (after being told we would be chucked out of eu if we voted to leave!) but a leave eu result would change this for me.

it's about sticking with the institution as it stands and working within the eu to fix elements that simply aren't working just now.

Yes that's right it's far from perfect but the outcome of a leave vote chills me to the bone. You think 2008 was bad just wait and see! I've yet to see any plans that make me think leaving is anything but foley and simply saying someone should come up with plans when we leave is nuts. We are talking about the future prosperity of this country and all too many are putting their xenophobic views before their ability to earn a living.


----------



## John-H

les said:


> John-H said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thing is Les, those MPs supporting brexit don't have a plan either and you've clearly not even asked them about a plan because you can't provide an answer.
> 
> That's what's been distinctly lacking - a plan for the economy. Nobody seems to be able to provide one. They don't even know if we'll rejoin the single market or not. How can these people be trusted with the most important thing - the economy? Wreck the economy and you wreck everything.
> 
> 
> 
> All will be revealed and IF we leave then all those MPs/government will have to ensure they earn their money. There are a number of trade options if we leave we will trade with the world as we did before the EU we will set up trade agreements. Countries will be falling over themselves to get in place trade agreements. The trade agreements will be there but first you have to get out of the one we are in yet. IF we leave the government will have a mandate to negotiate with the world. Nobody says it's going to be easy and there are many unknowns just like what is being kept under the blankets by the EU for after the vote but if we vote to leave at least that won't be unknown. Negotiation is the plan as it's always been for hundreds of years at least there is no change there.
Click to expand...

All will be revealed??? There are trade options??? What you mean is you don't know because they don't know. Countries falling over each other to set up trade deals??? Well that's wishful thinking. I admire your optimism. Funny how other countries find it takes years. You're not saying it will be easy??? You don't say?

You call that a plan?

What economic justification have you got for exposing us all to that risk? Answer me that.

And then we have "unknowns", trying to scare us with more gossip. Well the biggest unknown is the brexit plan clearly because there isn't one.

Do your brexit MPs propose being in the single market after leaving the EU or not. Pretty basic choice which?



cheechy said:


> Be in no doubt a vote to leave will cost the country 100s of thousands of jobs and years of recession.
> 
> The very fear of leaving has the pound and the markets in turmoil, especially now given how close this is looking.
> 
> If Scotland vote to remain comfortably but uk vote to leave as a whole (as is being touted) then I suspect the uk will break up this time around given this will provide the snp a mandate to try again. I for one am a firm supporter of the uk and voted to remain (after being told we would be chucked out of eu if we voted to leave!) but a leave eu result would change this for me.
> 
> it's about sticking with the institution as it stands and working within the eu to fix elements that simply aren't working just now.
> 
> Yes that's right it's far from perfect but the outcome of a leave vote chills me to the bone. You think 2008 was bad just wait and see! I've yet to see any plans that make me think leaving is anything but foley and simply saying someone should come up with plans when we leave is nuts. We are talking about the future prosperity of this country and all too many are putting their xenophobic views before their ability to earn a living.


Well said and I couldn't agree more [smiley=thumbsup.gif]


----------



## Dash

les said:


> The economy will be managed as it had been for hundreds of yours pre EU or similar.


 :lol: what, the gold standard?


----------



## Spandex

les said:


> All will be revealed and IF we leave then all those MPs/government will have to ensure they earn their money.


Do they have a good track record in 'earning their money' then? When there was a financial crisis less than 10 years ago, did the MPs all knuckle down and sort it out? What's the plan when the economy starts to drop and the MPs fall back to their usual bickering and blame games, whilst imposing cuts and austerity?


les said:


> There are a number of trade options if we leave we will trade with the world as we did before the EU we will set up trade agreements. Countries will be falling over themselves to get in place trade agreements.


No they won't. We're a big customer of some EU countries, and they'll surely carry on selling us their products whether trade agreements exist or not. But without free trade agreements those products will be more difficult and expensive to import and the British public will pay those extra costs.

This is the thing that Leave voters seem to be missing. They think that because other countries need to sell to us, they will have to set up trade agreements that benefit us as much as the current EU agreement does. This isn't the case. They can sell to us regardless of any trade agreements, as these agreements just govern how easy or difficult (and therefore how costly) it is to do business across borders. So, the fact that Audi wants to sell cars to us is no guarantee that we'll be able to negotiate a good trade deal with Germany.

As for timelines, look at the EUs biggest trading partners - the US and China. These two countries far far far outweigh the UK in terms of market size, yet the EU has still not got a free trade deal in place with either of them. The US has been negotiating a trade deal with Europe since 2013 (if you ignore the 15 or so years of discussions before it became formal) and it's not due to be signed until 2019 at the earliest. Yet you think the EU countries will be falling over themselves to rush through a deal with the UK in two years time?


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## bobclive22

_No they won't. We're a big customer of some EU countries, and they'll surely carry on selling us their products whether trade agreements exist or not. But without free trade agreements those products will be more difficult and expensive to import and the British public will pay those extra costs._

You have to be blind or thick not to see that the reason we have an abundance of cheap goods is nothing to do with free trade with the the EU but everything to do with China and the far east. If the EU try to put on tariffs we will purchase similar goods far cheaper from the rest of the world.
_
This is the thing that Leave voters seem to be missing. They think that because other countries need to sell to us, they will have to set up trade agreements that benefit us as much as the current EU agreement does._

If the EU sell more goods to us and a 10% tariff is applied both ways who gains most.


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> You have to be blind or thick not to see that the reason we have an abundance of cheap goods is nothing to do with free trade with the the EU but everything to do with China and the far east. If the EU try to put on tariffs we will purchase similar goods far cheaper from the rest of the world.


£420Bn of our £660Bn import spending goes to Europe. That's over 63%. Less than 10% is with China. We import more from Germany alone than China. Would you like to revise your statement above, or are you still convinced our abundance of cheap goods is down to trade with China and the far east? It's a genuine question, because I'm not totally convinced that reality has a massive impact on your view of the world. 


bobclive22 said:


> If the EU sell more goods to us and a 10% tariff is applied both ways who gains most.


The only people who care 'who gains the most' are the idiots who still think we're at war with 'ze Germans'. It doesn't matter who gains the most between us and Europe - all that matters is who gains the most between the UK In Europe and the UK Outside Europe. We're not trying to get one over on the foreigners...

Something to ponder - If we leave the EU, and they then immediately offer us an attractive trade deal, don't you think that would encourage other countries to question their membership? Do you think the EU would do something that so obviously threatens their very existence? The Leave campaign often like to pronounce that the EU wouldn't cut off their nose to spite their face - but that's missing the point - they'd be cutting off their nose to save their own life.


----------



## Spandex

To top it off even Xi Jinping, the Chinese President, has urged us not to leave the EU. So, China aren't rubbing their hands together with glee at the thought of all the cheap goods they'll sell us - they're desperate to negotiate a trade deal with Europe, not us on our own.

Someone posted this on Facebook - whilst I don't really agree with voting for personalities in this referendum, they make the good point that a lot of people aren't going to bother looking further than the list of people supporting each side:



> A good friend of mine came up with a great idea. If you don't have the time/inclination to find out all the facts about the EU referendum (I don't blame you) and are possibly unsure which way to vote, perhaps knowing how other notable people are thinking could help out.
> 
> Here are a few that strongly believe the UK should remain a member of the EU:
> 
> • Governor of the Bank of England
> • International Monetary Fund
> • Institute for Fiscal Studies
> • Confederation of British Industry
> • Leaders/heads of state of every single other member of the EU
> • President of the United States of America
> • Eight former US Treasury Secretaries
> • President of China
> • Prime Minister of India
> • Prime Minister of Canada
> • Prime Minister of Australia
> • Prime Minister of Japan
> • Prime Minister of New Zealand
> • The chief executives of most of the top 100 companies in the UK including Marks and Spencer, BT, Asda, Vodafone, Virgin, IBM, BMW etc.
> • Kofi Annan, the former Secretary General of the United Nations
> • All living former Prime Ministers of the UK (from both parties)
> • Virtually all reputable and recognised economists
> • The Prime Minister of the UK
> • The leader of the Labour Party
> • The Leader of the Liberal Democrats
> • The Leader of the Green Party
> • The Leader of the Scottish National Party
> • The leader of Plaid Cymru
> • Leader of Sinn Fein
> • Martin Lewis, that money saving dude off the telly
> • The Secretary General of the TUC
> • Unison
> • National Union of Students
> • National Union of Farmers
> • Stephen Hawking
> • Chief Executive of the NHS
> • 300 of the most prominent international historians
> • Director of Europol
> • David Anderson QC, Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation
> • Former Directors of GCHQ
> • Secretary General of Nato
> • Church of England
> • Church in Scotland
> • Church in Wales
> • Friends of the Earth
> • Greenpeace
> • Director General of the World Trade Organisation
> • WWF
> • World Bank
> • OECD
> 
> Here are pretty much the only notable people who think we should leave the EU:
> 
> • Boris Johnson, who probably doesn't really care either way, but knows he'll become Prime Minister if the country votes to leave
> • A former Secretary of State for Work and Pensions who carried out a brutal regime of cuts to benefits and essential support for the poorest in society as well as the disabled and sick
> • That idiot that was Education Secretary and every single teacher in the country hated with a furious passion for the damage he was doing to the education system
> • Leader of UKIP
> • BNP
> • Britain First
> • Donald Trump
> • Keith Chegwin
> • David Icke
> 
> So, as I said, if you can't be bothered to look into the real facts and implications of all this in/out stuff, just pick the list that you most trust and vote that way. It really couldn't be more simple.
> 
> And if you are unsure about leaving, don't.


----------



## John-H

Spandex said:


> To top it off even Xi Jinping, the Chinese President, has urged us not to leave the EU. So, China aren't rubbing their hands together with glee at the thought of all the cheap goods they'll sell us - they're desperate to negotiate a trade deal with Europe, not us on our own.
> 
> Someone posted this on Facebook - whilst I don't really agree with voting for personalities in this referendum, they make the good point that a lot of people aren't going to bother looking further than the list of people supporting each side:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [A very convincing list that provides perspective on the motivations of those involved]
> 
> And if you are unsure about leaving, don't.
Click to expand...

That last statement is important. This is not an annual flutter on a horse race for fun. You are betting your job, your home and your well-being, as a result of the effect on the economy. Don't take a careless punt.

If you are not sure, take the safe option to remain. If things don't work out in a few years you can always vote for another reforendum later. Sort things out from within. Dint loss the chance now. It's a no-brainer! Don't let people claim this is your only chance to leave - that's utter rubbish - if there is the call for an exit it will become a political movement with backing - not this present - we are not too sure balance. Why risk everything on the flip of a coin?

The finance minister for Canada was on the radio earlier being questioned on whether it was really true that it has taken years to negotiate a trade deal with the EU?

His answer was not only yes but also that although they consider this trade agreement to be a gold standard of agreements and they are very pleased it, he said that it was nowhere near as good as the agreement the UK currently enjoys as being of the EU. They couldn't get an agreement as good as that.

So even if we could get an agreement eventually, we are going to be worse off than we are now. Who is going to pay for this loss? The answer is us - it's going to cost us dearly.


----------



## bobclive22

The last time the proportion of exported goods and services heading to the EU crossed the 50% line was in 2008. Since then, it's fallen to 44.4%; not quite half, but close.

Goods exported to the EU *don't necessarily stay in the EU*. The Rotterdam-Antwerp effect is a suggested phenomenon where trade with the Netherlands and Belgium *is exaggerated by British goods being shipped into the ports of Rotterdam and Antwerp and then dispatched elsewhere in the world.*

Brexit panic sends London shares sliding

Britain's stock market has hit a new three-month low as Brexit worries sweep through the City.

The blue-chip FTSE 100 index has closed down 121 points at 5923, its lowest level since late February, and its fourth day of heavy falls. That wipes around £30bn off its value.
The Footsie has now shed 378 points since the start of trading on Thursday, when Brexit fears began to mount.
That means a staggering £98bn has been wiped off the value of Britain's biggest companies in four trading days.
Sterling is also languishing at two-month lows; the pound has lost 1.1% against the US dollar to $1.4108 at pixel time.
The TNS poll, showing a seven-point lead for the Leave campaign, sent shares down heavily in late trading.
Mining shares are among the top fallers, reflecting fears about the global economy.
Housebuilders such as Taylor Wimpey and Barratt Development also suffered falls; they would be hit by a decline in the UK housing market if the Bank of England raised interest rates to prop up sterling.

That survey from RICS [Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors] about a first possible drop in house prices since 2012, is clearly spooking people," said Russ Mould, investment director at AJ Bell.

It is tax-related and maybe a *little bit Brexit related*, but some will be wondering whether there are *more fundamental factors slowing us down, as prices are just at such high levels."
*
Does not appear unusual according to the graph.


----------



## les

waste and more waste and we pay for it, just one example.






Le'ts get out of the corrupt cartel it's the only way to change as Cameron hasn't been able to change much at all.


----------



## John-H

Avaaz hand been polling their members - who's demographic is more thoughtful, caring and considered than the general population. They have just emailed:



> Dear Avaazers across the UK,
> 
> The results are in, and an overwhelming majority of our movement has spoken: we're voting remain!!
> 
> Brexit is the dream of the Trumps and Farages of this world. And like them, the Leave campaign has risen in the polls mainly through fantastic lies delivered by rag media.
> 
> The truth is, Europe is a no-brainer. The challenges we face are, by far, best met together. Our unity is a force for peace, for human and labour rights, for environmental sustainability, for our future. And that's why those who want to take us backward on all those fronts, also want Brexit.
> 
> We have 9 days left, and we're going to fight, every hour of it, for Britain, and for Europe.
> 
> Sometimes, history strikes when we're not looking. Too trusting that Brexit was silly and therefore unlikely, sensible people have been relatively silent in our media while Tory politicians slugged it out. But this is too important - it's time to take this debate back from the loons and liars, before it's too late.
> 
> If enough of us support, Avaaz will:
> run ads in the Metro, one of the most widely read papers in Britain, making our case for remain
> churn out steady social media content in the next 9 days to make the case and encourage voting
> mobilise our movement to hit the phones and knock on doors for the remain campaign
> change the frame of the debate - running a world record "kiss-chain" of love across the continent
> anything and everything else we can think of and execute on this urgent timeline
> Europe is not perfect, but neither is the UK government. We need to work for reform of both. One lie pushed by the leave camp is that Europe is not democratic - but all the laws are made, and all the officials appointed, by ministers and MEPs and governments that we elect!
> 
> And Europe is an incredible dream - to see nations that murdered each other just 2 generations ago, working together in peace and unity. That dream of our grandparents and future for our grandchildren is on the line now - let's not lose it without a fight:
> 
> Brexit isn't just about Europe. It's the end of Britain too - because if the UK leaves Europe, Scotland will leave the UK, and possibly Northern Ireland as well.
> 
> Britain has long been a globalised nation and people - it is our past, and our future. It's also been key to our leadership in the world - the Commonwealth of Nations, the European Union, and the United Nations were all built with British leadership at their core. It's just a different kind of Britain that the Nigel Farages want - one that isn't us. By next Wednesday, let's make sure we remember who we are.
> 
> With hope,
> 
> Ricken, Alice, Alex, Fatima, Bert, and the whole Avaaz UK team


----------



## bobclive22

Published: June 9, 2016 12:26 p.m. ET

Trade figures released by the Office for National Statistics on Thursday showed that a *decline in the pound's value helped increase exports of British goods and services,* leading to a narrowing of the U.K.'s trade deficit in April to £10.5 billion pounds ($15.2 billion). Exports rose 9.1% between March and April to reach £26.1 billion, *the fastest pace of month-over-month growth since 2003. [/b

Anyway it is not about trade *it`s about *immigration and our ability to control it*, its about your c*hildren`s education*, it`s about *doctors appointments*, it`s about *hospital waiting times*, it`s about *housing waiting lists*, it`s about the *shortage of houses*, it`s about *OUR WAY OF LIFE* and it`s about *democracy*. We can sort the trade out as we have done in the past.


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## jamman

I just pray my daughters future is not decided by Bob, Les and other uneducated Sun readers.


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## John-H

les said:


> waste and more waste and we pay for it, just one example.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Le'ts get out of the corrupt cartel it's the only way to change as Cameron hasn't been able to change much at all.


Why are you spending your energies posting this clap trap when you have not yet found out the important thing which is far far more significant - what your plan is to safeguard the economy from the effect of an EU exit? Don't tell me you've given up already :roll: .

Remember I asked you whether the plan was to re-join the single market or not? Do you have an answer even yet?

I also asked a while back if you have ever voted for your MEP? That would at least give you a chance to change things from within the biggest democratic organisation going.

That goes for you too Bob. What's the plan and where is the economic evidence?


----------



## les

The reasons millions will vote out is really very simple. Like me, they are fed up with the EU their laws and undemocratic ways. People are fed up to the back teeth at what they see happening, it's not simply because Boris or anybody else is telling them anything new, lies or otherwise no it's what they are experiencing in their daily lives and they don't like it. Cameron made a big mistake in calling for a referendum as he thought it would be a cake walk and a landslide for the remain. Cameron thinks everybody will be the same voting for themselves the "am alright jacks"c rather than the country or the generations to come they are more interested in greed greed greed like the banks and financial institutions as we have seen. If the EU is thought so good for us then there will be a landslide victory for the remain side. However what if it's an out vote majority who are you going to blame? The EU, Cameron or maybe Boris? Like I said I expect the vote will go remain but it's not looking so comfortable now for Cameron as his advisors will have told me and his political career is on the line Not that Corbin is any real threat it would seem like Cameron he can't rely on his own troops and grass root supporters anymore and the knives will be out for them both. Nobody has done more to split both parties than these two. Farge and UKIP must be rubbing his hands at the thought. I am a traditional Labour voter but the Labour party has decided to ditch the working class for which it was formed so tey can go into the wilderness rather like the Liberals before them. History teaches so much but so many choose to ignore it and pay the price. Roll on the 23rd and maybe the rolling of heads following it and prepare for WW3.


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## John-H

Isn't that reason a bit like rioters going round smashing things up because they are angry? It doesn't make things better it only leaves a mess with a big bill.

What you need is something constructive to build a future which is why I asked what the economic plan was. Isn't the economic future of this country the most important thing for our children? It's them that will have to live with the consequences of an economic disaster.


----------



## Trouble4

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=610165752493686



https://www.facebook.com/voteleave/

getting heated up a bit...........

Hope all stay's Peaceful Please.............

[smiley=book2.gif] [smiley=book2.gif] [smiley=book2.gif] [smiley=book2.gif] [smiley=book2.gif]


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## cheechy

les said:


> The reasons millions will vote out is really very simple. Like me, they are fed up with the EU their laws and undemocratic ways. People are fed up to the back teeth at what they see happening, it's not simply because Boris or anybody else is telling them anything new, lies or otherwise no it's what they are experiencing in their daily lives and they don't like it. Cameron made a big mistake in calling for a referendum as he thought it would be a cake walk and a landslide for the remain. Cameron thinks everybody will be the same voting for themselves the "am alright jacks"c rather than the country or the generations to come they are more interested in greed greed greed like the banks and financial institutions as we have seen. If the EU is thought so good for us then there will be a landslide victory for the remain side. However what if it's an out vote majority who are you going to blame? The EU, Cameron or maybe Boris? Like I said I expect the vote will go remain but it's not looking so comfortable now for Cameron as his advisors will have told me and his political career is on the line Not that Corbin is any real threat it would seem like Cameron he can't rely on his own troops and grass root supporters anymore and the knives will be out for them both. Nobody has done more to split both parties than these two. Farge and UKIP must be rubbing his hands at the thought. I am a traditional Labour voter but the Labour party has decided to ditch the working class for which it was formed so tey can go into the wilderness rather like the Liberals before them. History teaches so much but so many choose to ignore it and pay the price. Roll on the 23rd and maybe the rolling of heads following it and prepare for WW3.


Sorry les this makes no sense. This vote is chuff all to do with Cameron (whom you mentioned numerous times) and indeed Corbyn and all to do with trying to get to actual facts about the pros and cons.

These guys will be gone in a couple of years and we need to keep personalities out of any decision as much as possible. Once we are out - we are out and cutting your nose off to spite your face is a phrase I'm hearing a lot just now.

I have to say I'm becoming more and more fearful of a leave vote and the consequences on my job and quality of life. You talk about 'I'm alright jack' mentality but I can assure you I won't be if we leave and I'm certainly not in the "political elite".

History does indeed teach and a vote to leave will see this country go into huge recession that will affect this country to the extent that I fear we will never fully recover.


----------



## bobclive22

_I just pray my daughters future is not decided by Bob, Les and other *uneducated Sun readers.* _

Down to insults are we.

I might not have a degree but have earned a living as an engineer, as a shop keeper, have constructed from foundations to completion a 1/2 million pound house single handed other than the plastering and have part built many others, I left school at 15 with just a leaving certificate, *what have you achieved?.*

Be interesting to see how your daughter fares in a class with pupils speaking half a dozen different languages. 
*
8-billionaires-who-never-bothered-to-get-a-college-degree*

http://www.cheatsheet.com/stocks/8-bill ... ?a=viewall

_I have to say I'm becoming more and more fearful of a leave vote and the consequences on my job and quality of life._

It`s all about your *quality of life*, get off your ass and visit the north of England.


----------



## Shug750S

bobclive22 said:


> Brexit panic sends London shares sliding
> 
> Britain's stock market has hit a new three-month low as Brexit worries sweep through the City.
> 
> The blue-chip FTSE 100 index has closed down 121 points at 5923, its lowest level since late February, and its fourth day of heavy falls. That wipes around £30bn off its value.
> The Footsie has now shed 378 points since the start of trading on Thursday, when Brexit fears began to mount.
> That means a staggering £98bn has been wiped off the value of Britain's biggest companies in four trading days.
> Sterling is also languishing at two-month lows; the pound has lost 1.1% against the US dollar to $1.4108 at pixel time.
> The TNS poll, showing a seven-point lead for the Leave campaign, sent shares down heavily in late trading.


Slightly off topic, these 'traders' just make their commission on trading shares.

What's the odds on no recovery of share prices even if we vote remain?

That's our pensions getting hammered again. Unless you're a government employee on a final salary related one :x


----------



## cheechy

[quote="bobclive"

_I have to say I'm becoming more and more fearful of a leave vote and the consequences on my job and quality of life._

It`s all about your *quality of life*, get off your ass and visit the north of England.[/quote]

Have taken the trip south on many an occasion. For the record I don't recall insulting you so please don't assume the affect of leaving is all about the city of London and the south. It's not.


----------



## cheechy

Shug750S said:


> bobclive22 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Brexit panic sends London shares sliding
> 
> Britain's stock market has hit a new three-month low as Brexit worries sweep through the City.
> 
> The blue-chip FTSE 100 index has closed down 121 points at 5923, its lowest level since late February, and its fourth day of heavy falls. That wipes around £30bn off its value.
> The Footsie has now shed 378 points since the start of trading on Thursday, when Brexit fears began to mount.
> That means a staggering £98bn has been wiped off the value of Britain's biggest companies in four trading days.
> Sterling is also languishing at two-month lows; the pound has lost 1.1% against the US dollar to $1.4108 at pixel time.
> The TNS poll, showing a seven-point lead for the Leave campaign, sent shares down heavily in late trading.
> 
> 
> 
> Slightly off topic, these 'traders' just make their commission on trading shares.
> 
> What's the odds on no recovery of share prices even if we vote remain?
> 
> That's our pensions getting hammered again. Unless you're a government employee on a final salary related one :x
Click to expand...

A city of London no longer competitive in Europe won't be making the same amount of money due to unfavourable trading conditions. Yes it will hurt the fat cats but as you've also pointed out, our pensions too.


----------



## bobclive22

_That's our pensions getting hammered again. Unless you're a government employee on a final salary related one _

I am guessing you are in your early 30`s, if so you will probably retire at 80, do you really believe Brexit will effect your pension to any major degree, it`s call growth, example, I paid *1 single premium in 1975 of I believe £70,* I forgot it had even been paid, around 1995 I received a letter referring to this policy, it had matured, *£70 had turned into £10,000.*

http://www.ifre.com/a-history-of-the-pa ... ullarticle


----------



## bobclive22

_Have taken the trip south on many an occasion._

Did you mean taken the trip *North*, my comment was not meant as an insult, it`s to try to make you understand that you may feel more at home in Spain than England if you live in many of the Northern towns and cities, that`s why Labour voters are voting exit.


----------



## cheechy

bobclive22 said:


> _Have taken the trip south on many an occasion._
> 
> Did you mean taken the trip *North*, my comment was not meant as an insult, it`s to try to make you understand that you may feel more at home in Spain than England.


Haha nope I meant south. Read it again!

So you are seriously saying that as my views don't agree with yours I should live in Spain? A tad xenophobic no?


----------



## bobclive22

_Have taken the trip south on many an occasion._

So you live in the North, might I ask what city or town.

S_o you are seriously saying that as my views don't agree with yours I should live in Spain?_

Give me breath, You find it hard to find a white face in Preston, does that explain it, that was 20 years ago and I am NOT a bloody racist.


----------



## cheechy

bobclive22 said:


> _Have taken the trip south on many an occasion._
> 
> So you live in the North, might I ask what city or town.


It's called Scotland. Last time I checked it was part of the UK.

For now at least and hopefully remains so after a successful remain vote...


----------



## bobclive22

The immigrants haven`t got the bus fair to get that far or have they.

The Glasgow primary without a SINGLE Scottish pupil: 181 of school's 222 children are from either Romania or Slovakia.
As I said earlier it`s about your child`s and other children`s education.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... upils.html


----------



## cheechy

bobclive22 said:


> The immigrants haven`t got the bus fair to get that far or have they.
> 
> The Glasgow primary without a SINGLE Scottish pupil: 181 of school's 222 children are from either Romania or Slovakia.
> As I said earlier it`s about your child`s and other children`s education.
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... upils.html


You are really asking that question... So really your argument is really just down to immigration then?

So rather than stat in and renegotiate you want to throw the baby out with the bath water?

You do realise most immigration is from out with the EU right AND without skilled resources from outside the UK the NHS would grind to a halt?


----------



## John-H

bobclive22 said:


> _Have taken the trip south on many an occasion._
> 
> So you live in the North, might I ask what city or town.
> 
> S_o you are seriously saying that as my views don't agree with yours I should live in Spain?_
> 
> Give me breath, You find it hard to find a white face in Preston, does that explain it, that was 20 years ago and I am NOT a bloody racist.


In order to make things easier to read and know who's said what then the use of the quote button helps  Using Italics doesn't always work on some browsers.



> Even just highlighting some copied text and clicking quote helps like this!


It puts the following BB code around the "words"


Code:


[quote]words[/quote]

So it appears as:



> words


You can even assign the quote to "Bob" thus:


Code:


[quote="Bob"]words[/quote]




Bob said:


> words


So Bob, can you please tell me what your economic plan is for brexit?

Perhaps you can explain how you are going to safeguard the economy? How will this work and what evidence have you got to show?

Does your plan involve joining the single market to protect trade? This is pretty fundamental and you should know this if there is a plan - or don't you have one either?


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> The immigrants haven`t got the bus fair to get that far or have they.
> 
> The Glasgow primary without a SINGLE Scottish pupil: 181 of school's 222 children are from either Romania or Slovakia.
> As I said earlier it`s about your child`s and other children`s education.
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... upils.html


You need to learn how to analyse news stories. The important point in this article isn't that they've found a school in Glasgow where most of the children are foreign - it's that they've *only found one school* like this. Because you can be sure that if this was even remotely indicative of schools across Glasgow or Scotland as a whole, they'd have made a point of reporting it. So, all this really tells you is that this one school became popular with some (possibly very small - 181 kids isn't that many really) local communities of immigrants.

It's an interesting anomaly.


----------



## John-H

I still want to know what Bob's economic plan is. He doesn't appear to have one so far :roll:


----------



## Trouble4

no problems with immigration....... problem is Immigrants not wanting to go by the Laws of the Country they have moved to and wanting what was from where they were from... to be guiding them where they are now ... can not have both Worlds either go by the rules of your new Country or get out.......

???Britain's Sharia courts: There are now EIGHTY-FIVE Islamic courts dispensing 'justice' across the UK.???

Why justice for one and not another.........

Immigrants must respect and follow the same in whatever Country they live....... Period.


----------



## cheechy

Trouble4 said:


> no problems with immigration....... problem is Immigrants not wanting to go by the Laws of the Country they have moved to and wanting what was from where they were from... to be guiding them where they are now ... can not have both Worlds either go by the rules of your new Country or get out.......
> 
> ???Britain's Sharia courts: There are now EIGHTY-FIVE Islamic courts dispensing 'justice' across the UK.???
> 
> Why justice for one and not another.........
> 
> Immigrants must respect and follow the same in whatever Country they live....... Period.


Hi trouble 

No issue with this it's always a balance between communities / individuals bringing something with them that enriches the place they choose to call home, whilst also taking local laws and customs as their own

In respect to Sharia courts the government should be taking more action on these without doubt, all be it they are very useful in fixing disputes when laws have not been broken.

Should immigrants from outside the EU in particular be integrating better into the British culture? Yes and the government itself has already noted that not enough emphasis gas been placed on this in the past. In relation to the EU vote this is not really relevant us it though? Indeed EU immigrants are responsible in years gone by for forming the uk culture as-is...Vikings, Romans, Normans and the good old German royal family amongst others


----------



## Shug750S

bobclive22 said:


> _That's our pensions getting hammered again. Unless you're a government employee on a final salary related one _
> 
> I am guessing you are in your early 30`s, if so you will probably retire at 80, do you really believe Brexit will effect your pension to any major degree, it`s call growth, example, I paid *1 single premium in 1975 of I believe £70,* I forgot it had even been paid, around 1995 I received a letter referring to this policy, it had matured, *£70 had turned into £10,000.*
> 
> http://www.ifre.com/a-history-of-the-pa ... ullarticle


Nope, well out mate. I'm 55 next birthday so was planning to retire in 5-8 years.

Got a reasonable (pretty chunky) pension pot, but majority currently tied up in shares, so an exit will probably affect it. Plan was to slowly drift the pot to less volatile funds (bonds, gilts etc) but will see what happens now.

Not the end of the world I suppose, as no mortgage on main residence plus a couple of non mortgaged rental properties, with a total value >1m, so can always live off the rent from them, sell one, or downsize.

Guess I'll be affected less than many others whatever happens. But still worrying.

£70 -£10,000 in 20 years, that was a great deal. Wish I had a financial advisor who knew about that one :lol:


----------



## cheechy

BBC news at ten just did an interesting piece on the latest brexit position.

They've identified what I think we are seeing here tbh. The economy has gone to number 2, with immigration being number 1 for those wanting to exit.

The final summary? We now live in a global interconnected world and trying to haul the drawbridge up now just won't work. No guarantees that if we leave immigration numbers will reduce and indeed they are just as likely to go up.

People really need to look at this fact and decide what kind of country we want to be. If isolation is your thing then we could be heading for economic meltdown where immigrants won't WANT to come,


----------



## John-H

This is not aimed at anyone personally of course but...


----------



## NickG

Stupid vote, it shouldn't be a public matter, it should be decided by the people with the best knowledge and ability to analyse what's best for the country as a whole... And as none of the people that are in the know can agree (even those from the same party), why are we leaving it to chance and letting the general (misinformed and uneducated) public vote?!

Seriously concerned anyone remotely UKIP and EDL will be seeing the word immigration and voting to exit... Daft.


----------



## Dash

"Foreigners" has always been the top point for Leave, in whatever guise. They have not put forward anything concrete about how to improve Britain as an isolated state. It's all about how bad things are currently due to, you guessed it "foreigners".

Whether that's them agreeing to treaties to made trade easier. Forming military alliances to be able to respond to common threats together, or protect workers from being exploited. It's all those bloody foreigners.

All this surmounts to is a fear of foreigners, or to give it's correct term, xenophobia.

The few concrete benefits that Leave have offered, e.g. increased NHS spending have demonstrated to be unrealistic - either due to that money simply not being available through to the rather more fundamental point: just because it sounds like a nice idea, it doesn't mean the government in power us going to implement the suggestion.

It's all unfounded hypotheticals. Leave supporters seem incapable of recognising the simple point that uncertainty is disastrous to our society - despite having seen this first hand during the relative minor recession we've just been through.


----------



## Trouble4

> all be it they are very useful in fixing disputes when laws have not been broken.





> "Foreigners" has always been the top point for Leave, in whatever guise. They have not put forward anything concrete about how to improve Britain as an isolated state. It's all about how bad things are currently due to, you guessed it "foreigners"


So, Britain's Sharia courts work thru disputes just Muslims have or anyone has and because no laws were broken are the parties involved legally bound of the outcome ??


----------



## jamman

Please learn to quote it's not rocket science



bobclive22 said:


> Down to insults are we.
> 
> I might not have a degree but blah blah blah blah ........


FAIL Bob, Please see your quote below and remember who started talking about degrees (and then went quiet)

I'm sorry but from your comments I will stand by my "uneducated Sun reader" assessment of you.



bobclive22 said:


> by the way was your degree in media studies, you don`t have a degree, thought so.





bobclive22 said:


> Be interesting to see how your daughter fares in a class with pupils speaking half a dozen different languages.


FAIL again Bob

St Norberts Catholic School (Outstanding - Ofsted)

Off the top of my head in my daughters class, English, Irish, Polish, Filipino, Indian, Nigerian, Nepalese, South African, Sudanese, Russian.....

They are all beautiful kids, maybe they will stay like that, if you have your way I'm sure they won't but it's a real melting pot and hopefully they will all learn to live with each other and we won't see comments such as your "spot the white face" xenophobia in the future.


----------



## Spandex

Trouble4 said:


> So, Britain's Sharia courts work thru disputes just Muslims have or anyone has and because no laws were broken are the parties involved legally bound of the outcome ??


Sharia councils, in theory, are there to make decisions on matters that fall outside UK law, ensuring religious 'laws' and principles are taken into account. I I think the parties are only legally bound by the decisions if the sharia council is acting as a recognised arbitration service and both parties agree to be bound by the decision beforehand. All agreements are subject to English law, and can't supersede it.

The main concern with sharia councils is that vulnerable people may be coerced or treated unfairly - I don't think anyone really knows enough to know if this is a genuine problem though.


----------



## Spandex

jamman said:


> St Norberts Catholic School (Outstanding - Ofsted)
> 
> Off the top of my head in my daughters class, English, Irish, Polish, Filipino, Indian, Nigerian, Nepalese, South African, Sudanese, Russian.....
> 
> They are all beautiful kids, maybe they will stay like that, if you have your way I'm sure they won't but it's a real melting pot and hopefully they will all learn to live with each other and we won't see comments such as your "spot the white face" xenophobia in the future.


And that's the great part of immigration. Sure, the adults arriving here will struggle with the new language and culture, but as soon as their child gets to school they will start to integrate in a way that an adult never really could. but the xenophobes will complain when people don't integrate and they'll complain when they do...


----------



## leopard

NickG said:


> Stupid vote, it shouldn't be a public matter, it should be decided by the people with the best knowledge and ability to analyse what's best for the country as a whole... And as none of the people that are in the know can agree (even those from the same party), why are we leaving it to chance and letting the general (misinformed and uneducated) public vote?!
> 
> Seriously concerned anyone remotely UKIP and EDL will be seeing the word immigration and voting to exit... Daft.


Better change the judicial system while you're at it.

It's the same misinformed and uneducated public that make up the jury !


----------



## bobclive22

_You are really asking that question... So really your argument is really just down to immigration then? _

No, it`s (1) having control over our own destiny and (2) immigration.

*It`s down to the numbers and the indigenous population not being swamped*, I have worked with all races and got on well with them, Immigration is absolutely essential but only in numbers that can be adsorbed and the skills that are required, The likes of Sports direct would not be able to impose draconian employment conditions on it`s workers if this large cheap pool of foreign unskilled labour was not available.


----------



## cheechy

bobclive22 said:


> _You are really asking that question... So really your argument is really just down to immigration then? _
> 
> No, it`s (1) having control over our own destiny and (2) immigration.
> 
> *It`s down to the numbers and the indigenous population not being swamped*, I have worked with all races and got on well with them, Immigration is absolutely essential but only in numbers that can be adsorbed and the skills that are required, The likes of Sports direct would not be able to impose draconian employment conditions on it`s workers if this large cheap pool of foreign unskilled labour was not available.


So do agree with bad practices being seen by the likes of sports direct where agencies are being used to ship cheap labour in from elsewhere. This is circumventing the free labour agreement and tbh should be looked at.

In terms of being swamped I agree to an extent also but it tells a story of how attractive our economy has been to draw in people from outside the uk. Hopefully unless people have a job to go to when they arrive the changes being proposed / agreed post a potential stay vote will put the brakes on speculative migration - ie if you have no job then uk will not support you.

Again though I'll repeat what was emphasised on the Beeb last night...leaving the eu might not gave the affect you are looking for and it's likely that in or out people will keep arriving on our shores until our economy no longer attracts.

It's whether you feel that's the price you want to pay.

What I'm not getting is how leaving the eu is going to stop the influx?


----------



## Spandex

leopard said:


> Better change the judicial system while you're at it.
> 
> It's the same misinformed and uneducated public that make up the jury !


A jury is guided by a Judge who ensures that they only answer specific legal questions. The entire court process is designed to ensure that, by the time the jury has to make a decision, they are as informed and educated on the specifics of the case, and as untainted by irrelevances as they need to be in order to give a verdict. They may or may not be misinformed and uneducated in a broader context, out in the real world, but they should be experts on the facts of the case and on the specifics of the question they have to answer.

There is no such thing in place for this referendum. The two groups of politicians have basically started an arms-race of misinformation, where it's now no longer possible for any of them to present actual, unadulterated, un-sexed-up facts because they'll never sound as compelling as the lies we've been fed up to now.


----------



## Spandex

cheechy said:


> What I'm not getting is how leaving the eu is going to stop the influx?


I thought Andrew Neils recent BBC interview with Farage was pretty enlightening. It was clear that Farage had no real answers to how we could really reduce migrant numbers by leaving the EU. When pressed, Farage gave a rough target of 40-50k per year, but it became increasingly obvious that he had no real way of achieving those figures whilst still allowing 'desirable migrants' entry.

Given that UKIP are likely to support the most aggressive immigration policies of all the political parties, and they're not even going to be in power following a leave vote, it's safe to assume that leaving the EU is unlikely to have a significant impact on immigration - other than the subsequent economic problems potentially making us a less desirable place to live. Although I imagine a post-brexit Johnson would try to spin that as a win for us...


----------



## John-H

NickG said:


> Stupid vote, it shouldn't be a public matter, it should be decided by the people with the best knowledge and ability to analyse what's best for the country as a whole... And as none of the people that are in the know can agree (even those from the same party), why are we leaving it to chance and letting the general (misinformed and uneducated) public vote?!
> 
> Seriously concerned anyone remotely UKIP and EDL will be seeing the word immigration and voting to exit... Daft.


Very true. It seems to be an invitation for the worst xenophobic attitudes to get aired and hijack the debate, steering it away from the most important issue which is the economy.

Given the uncharted nature of the choice the risks are huge and the outcome unknown but expecting the public to play safe and go for the sensible option is also a risk when they are not in a position to judge the economy and prone to being influenced by self interested politicians and newspaper owners.

The general population will naturally engage with things they feel more qualified to talk about such as new people they notice around them and fears and prejudices can then easily be stoked and the debate deliberately kept focussed on race and immigration.

The debate needs however to be moved back to the economy because that will by far have the bigger and longer lasting effect. Talk of sharia courts (which has nothing do with the EU and can easily be addressed) and the like is utterly insignificant to the effects of the economic juggernaut heading our way.

As has been said, if we cripple the economy our country will not be as attractive but is that a price worth paying?

The debate needs to re-focus on the economy and people made to realise how overwhelmingly important this is for all our futures.


----------



## rustyintegrale

Spandex said:


> To top it off even Xi Jinping, the Chinese President, has urged us not to leave the EU. So, China aren't rubbing their hands together with glee at the thought of all the cheap goods they'll sell us - they're desperate to negotiate a trade deal with Europe, not us on our own.
> 
> Someone posted this on Facebook - whilst I don't really agree with voting for personalities in this referendum, they make the good point that a lot of people aren't going to bother looking further than the list of people supporting each side:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A good friend of mine came up with a great idea. If you don't have the time/inclination to find out all the facts about the EU referendum (I don't blame you) and are possibly unsure which way to vote, perhaps knowing how other notable people are thinking could help out.
> 
> Here are a few that strongly believe the UK should remain a member of the EU:
> 
> • Governor of the Bank of England
> • International Monetary Fund
> • Institute for Fiscal Studies
> • Confederation of British Industry
> • Leaders/heads of state of every single other member of the EU
> • President of the United States of America
> • Eight former US Treasury Secretaries
> • President of China
> • Prime Minister of India
> • Prime Minister of Canada
> • Prime Minister of Australia
> • Prime Minister of Japan
> • Prime Minister of New Zealand
> • The chief executives of most of the top 100 companies in the UK including Marks and Spencer, BT, Asda, Vodafone, Virgin, IBM, BMW etc.
> • Kofi Annan, the former Secretary General of the United Nations
> • All living former Prime Ministers of the UK (from both parties)
> • Virtually all reputable and recognised economists
> • The Prime Minister of the UK
> • The leader of the Labour Party
> • The Leader of the Liberal Democrats
> • The Leader of the Green Party
> • The Leader of the Scottish National Party
> • The leader of Plaid Cymru
> • Leader of Sinn Fein
> • Martin Lewis, that money saving dude off the telly
> • The Secretary General of the TUC
> • Unison
> • National Union of Students
> • National Union of Farmers
> • Stephen Hawking
> • Chief Executive of the NHS
> • 300 of the most prominent international historians
> • Director of Europol
> • David Anderson QC, Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation
> • Former Directors of GCHQ
> • Secretary General of Nato
> • Church of England
> • Church in Scotland
> • Church in Wales
> • Friends of the Earth
> • Greenpeace
> • Director General of the World Trade Organisation
> • WWF
> • World Bank
> • OECD
> 
> Here are pretty much the only notable people who think we should leave the EU:
> 
> • Boris Johnson, who probably doesn't really care either way, but knows he'll become Prime Minister if the country votes to leave
> • A former Secretary of State for Work and Pensions who carried out a brutal regime of cuts to benefits and essential support for the poorest in society as well as the disabled and sick
> • That idiot that was Education Secretary and every single teacher in the country hated with a furious passion for the damage he was doing to the education system
> • Leader of UKIP
> • BNP
> • Britain First
> • Donald Trump
> • Keith Chegwin
> • David Icke
> 
> So, as I said, if you can't be bothered to look into the real facts and implications of all this in/out stuff, just pick the list that you most trust and vote that way. It really couldn't be more simple.
> 
> And if you are unsure about leaving, don't.
Click to expand...

'Keith Chegwin' :lol: :lol: :lol: [smiley=bigcry.gif] Waaaaaaay too influential...


----------



## rustyintegrale

les said:


> ...and prepare for WW3.


Ooooh, get your Captain Mainwaring outfit on Les and start waving your broom handles! :lol:


----------



## John-H

I remember Keith Chegwin being interviewed about recovering from his alcohol problem when the interviewer came out with the classic line, "Well, Cheggers can't be boozers."


----------



## leopard

John-H said:


> The debate needs to re-focus on the economy and people made to realise how overwhelmingly important this is for all our futures.


It has with a massive thump.

The idiot Osborne threatening a large austerity budget after Brexit and now more people voting to leave who were originally in the remain camp because of these threats.Massive backfire.

Tory politicians ganging up on Osborne stating they will block any such measure,closely followed by Labour stating the same even though the former Labour Chancellor was holding hands with the present Mr.Osborne and looking like a right chump today.

The leave campaign I note are sounding more coherent with their post Brexit financial plans while the remain camp shambles are too busy arguing amongst themselves and coming up with the wackiest of ideas to scare the general public into submission.Laughable.


----------



## Spandex

leopard said:


> The idiot Osborne threatening a large austerity budget after Brexit and now more people voting to leave who were originally in the remain camp because of these threats.Massive backfire.


What amazes me most about this story is that, despite Osborne only announcing his pointless fake budget this morning, you already know that it has influenced a number of remain supporters to change sides and to vote leave. How did they manage to get the polling data turned around and published so quickly?

Obviously Osborne is a dick and this exact budget is never going to happen (although I do believe we will face a shrinking economy and extended austerity measures should we vote to leave), but what kind of moron would change their vote based on this?? That's basically like saying "Despite nothing happening this morning to change my beliefs regarding the effects of leaving the EU, I'm changing my vote in order to teach Osborne a lesson for trying to manipulate me".



leopard said:


> The leave campaign I note are sounding more coherent with their post Brexit financial plans


I think you mean "post Brexit financial aspirations". A plan implies some ability to predict and influence the outcome and I've yet to see any evidence that the Leave campaign are able to do either. Optimism isn't a plan.


----------



## mighTy Tee

Have you ever stayed with that girlfriend, because you dont want to upset her, but at the same time cant quite work out what the reason is for staying with her as she is s*** in bed, nags you into doing things you dont want to do because it is in "our best interests" and she contributes very little to the house (although she claims she does all the washing ironing and cooking etc), well that IMO sums up Britain's relationship with the EU, time for divorce!


----------



## jamman

Richard I've always found all my past ladies were great in bed due to the fact that I'm a sexual God.

I never could make my mind up in out in out in out.......


----------



## cheechy

mighTy Tee said:


> Have you ever stayed with that girlfriend, because you dont want to upset her, but at the same time cant quite work out what the reason is for staying with her as she is s*** in bed, nags you into doing things you dont want to do because it is in "our best interests" and she contributes very little to the house (although she claims she does all the washing ironing and cooking etc), well that IMO sums up Britain's relationship with the EU, time for divorce!


Not a bad analogy 

Like a divorce this will cost us ALL a lot of money for years to come.

Alas looking more and more like the UK will vote to leave...kinda like watching a car crash about to happen in slow motion and being able to do nothing about it. 

I'll never get it...why do we want to destroy the economy for a bit of one upmanship on Cameron and Europe?


----------



## rustyintegrale

mighTy Tee said:


> Have you ever stayed with that girlfriend, because you dont want to upset her, but at the same time cant quite work out what the reason is for staying with her as she is s*** in bed, nags you into doing things you dont want to do because it is in "our best interests" and she contributes very little to the house (although she claims she does all the washing ironing and cooking etc), well that IMO sums up Britain's relationship with the EU, time for divorce!


That's not time for divorce, that's time to 'come out'! :lol:


----------



## spike

rustyintegrale said:


> mighTy Tee said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have you ever stayed with that girlfriend, because you dont want to upset her, but at the same time cant quite work out what the reason is for staying with her as she is s*** in bed, nags you into doing things you dont want to do because it is in "our best interests" and she contributes very little to the house (although she claims she does all the washing ironing and cooking etc), well that IMO sums up Britain's relationship with the EU, time for divorce!
> 
> 
> 
> That's not time for divorce, that's time to 'come out'! :lol:
Click to expand...

would that make her leave you?

which is what may happen to the UK, for even having the referendum in the first place , regardless of the answer?


----------



## John-H

Slow car crash? Yes it does seem like that sort of a dream - if you are pessimistic. Hopefully people will wake up before it's too late however and realise what's most important for them - or is it an uninformed terminal decline without a care for the economy? No, I don't think so. Let's hope people will realise what's best for the UK, so peace and harmony will prevail and rivalry, hatred, bigotry and war will remain as history whilst we have a say in Europe.


----------



## John-H

Just a thought. .makes sense to me though!


----------



## fut1a

mighTy Tee said:


> Have you ever stayed with that girlfriend, because you dont want to upset her, but at the same time cant quite work out what the reason is for staying with her as she is s*** in bed, nags you into doing things you dont want to do because it is in "our best interests" and she contributes very little to the house (although she claims she does all the washing ironing and cooking etc), well that IMO sums up Britain's relationship with the EU, time for divorce!


 :lol:


----------



## fut1a

Whatever happens with the vote in or out there is something very wrong when people in public office who we should be able to trust, can blatantly lie to the public and get away with it. How can we make an informed decision when we are not given the facts.

We should all be fighting for the same thing and that is reform. Things need to change when these people can lie and not be held to account.


----------



## Spandex

fut1a said:


> Whatever happens with the vote in or out there is something very wrong when people in public office who we should be able to trust, can blatantly lie to the public and get away with it. How can we make an informed decision when we are not given the facts.
> 
> We should all be fighting for the same thing and that is reform. Things need to change when these people can lie and not be held to account.


I agree, but I think it goes further than that. There's something very very wrong when our own government are willing to abdicate responsibility for such a massively important decision purely because of party politics and in-fighting. We should never have been asked to make this decision.


----------



## fut1a

Spandex said:


> fut1a said:
> 
> 
> 
> Whatever happens with the vote in or out there is something very wrong when people in public office who we should be able to trust, can blatantly lie to the public and get away with it. How can we make an informed decision when we are not given the facts.
> 
> We should all be fighting for the same thing and that is reform. Things need to change when these people can lie and not be held to account.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree, but I think it goes further than that. There's something very very wrong when our own government are willing to abdicate responsibility for such a massively important decision purely because of party politics and in-fighting. We should never have been asked to make this decision.
Click to expand...

I agree, an independent body should look into the facts and do what is best for the country. Not just for this but for a lot of things. The only problem is finding people without a vested interest and who don't accept brown envelopes.


----------



## Nails

The media seems hell bent on labelling all 'outers' as racists and idiots. The majority I know that are outers are neither.

The German Bank that came out yesterday and said a brexit may be good for the UK economy had a good point. A strong pound is always bad for exports and Britain over performs models when the pound is low.

I worked for Nissan back when the threat of joining the euro was looming. They said as much then, its hard to sell in Europe when the pound is high, they wanted the Euro then or they'd leave. We didn't and they didn't. Many of the big company's are blustering either from worried about their immediate profit line, or where the next grant will come from.

I'm an outer and accept it may not be a smooth ride but we should ride it out and be the better for it in the long run.


----------



## Spandex

A A Gill wrote a piece for the Times which was right on the money in a lot of ways. Not a serious fact-based argument about laws and economics but, in my opinion, an insightful view of the average Leave voters view of Britain:



> It was the woman on Question Time that really did it for me. She was so familiar. There is someone like her in every queue, every coffee shop, outside every school in every parish council in the country. Middle-aged, middle-class, middle-brow, over-made-up, with her National Health face and weatherproof English expression of hurt righteousness, she's Britannia's mother-in-law. The camera closed in on her and she shouted: "All I want is my country back. Give me my country back."
> 
> It was a heartfelt cry of real distress and the rest of the audience erupted in sympathetic applause, but I thought: "Back from what? Back from where?"
> 
> Wanting the country back is the constant mantra of all the outies. Farage slurs it, Gove insinuates it. Of course I know what they mean. We all know what they mean. They mean back from Johnny Foreigner, back from the brink, back from the future, back-to-back, back to bosky hedges and dry stone walls and country lanes and church bells and warm beer and skittles and football rattles and cheery banter and clogs on cobbles. Back to vicars-and-tarts parties and Carry On fart jokes, back to Elgar and fudge and proper weather and herbaceous borders and cars called Morris. Back to victoria sponge and 22 yards to a wicket and 15 hands to a horse and 3ft to a yard and four fingers in a Kit Kat, back to gooseberries not avocados, back to deference and respect, to make do and mend and smiling bravely and biting your lip and suffering in silence and patronising foreigners with pity.
> 
> We all know what "getting our country back" means. It's snorting a line of the most pernicious and debilitating Little English drug, nostalgia. The warm, crumbly, honey-coloured, collective "yesterday" with its fond belief that everything was better back then, that Britain (England, really) is a worse place now than it was at some foggy point in the past where we achieved peak Blighty. It's the knowledge that the best of us have been and gone, that nothing we can build will be as lovely as a National Trust Georgian country house, no art will be as good as a Turner, no poem as wonderful as If, no writer a touch on Shakespeare or Dickens, nothing will grow as lovely as a cottage garden, no hero greater than Nelson, no politician better than Churchill, no view more throat-catching than the White Cliffs and that we will never manufacture anything as great as a Rolls-Royce or Flying Scotsman again.
> 
> The dream of Brexit isn't that we might be able to make a brighter, new, energetic tomorrow, it's a desire to shuffle back to a regret-curdled inward-looking yesterday. In the Brexit fantasy, the best we can hope for is to kick out all the work-all-hours foreigners and become caretakers to our own past in this self-congratulatory island of moaning and pomposity.
> 
> And if you think that's an exaggeration of the Brexit position, then just listen to the language they use: "We are a nation of inventors and entrepreneurs, we want to put the great back in Britain, the great engineers, the great manufacturers." This is all the expression of a sentimental nostalgia. In the Brexiteer's mind's eye is the old Pathé newsreel of Donald Campbell, of John Logie Baird with his television, Barnes Wallis and his bouncing bomb, and Robert Baden-Powell inventing boy scouts in his shed.
> 
> All we need, their argument goes, is to be free of the humourless Germans and spoilsport French and all their collective liberalism and reality. There is a concomitant hope that if we manage to back out of Europe, then we'll get back to the bowler-hatted 1950s and the Commonwealth will hold pageants, fireworks displays and beg to be back in the Queen Empress's good books again. Then New Zealand will sacrifice a thousand lambs, Ghana will ask if it can go back to being called the Gold Coast and Britain will resume hand-making Land Rovers and top hats and Sheffield plate teapots.
> 
> There is a reason that most of the people who want to leave the EU are old while those who want to remain are young: it's because the young aren't infected with Bisto nostalgia. They don't recognise half the stuff I've mentioned here. They've grown up in the EU and at worst it's been neutral for them.
> 
> The under-thirties want to be part of things, not aloof from them. They're about being joined-up and counted. I imagine a phrase most outies identify with is "women's liberation has gone too far". Everything has gone too far for them, from political correctness - well, that's gone mad, hasn't it? - to health and safety and gender-neutral lavatories. Those oldies, they don't know if they're coming or going, what with those newfangled mobile phones and kids on Tinder and Grindr. What happened to meeting Miss Joan Hunter Dunn at the tennis club? And don't get them started on electric hand dryers, or something unrecognised in the bagging area, or Indian call centres , or the impertinent computer asking for a password that has both capitals and little letters and numbers and more than eight digits.
> 
> We listen to the Brexit lot talk about the trade deals they're going to make with Europe after we leave, and the blithe insouciance that what they're offering instead of EU membership is a divorce where you can still have sex with your ex. They reckon they can get out of the marriage, keep the house, not pay alimony, take the kids out of school, stop the in-laws going to the doctor, get strict with the visiting rights, but, you know, still get a shag at the weekend and, obviously, see other people on the side.
> 
> Really, that's their best offer? That's the plan? To swagger into Brussels with Union Jack pants on and say: " 'Ello luv, you're looking nice today. Would you like some?"
> 
> When the rest of us ask how that's really going to work, leavers reply, with Terry-Thomas smirks, that "they're going to still really fancy us, honest, they're gagging for us. Possibly not Merkel, but the bosses of Mercedes and those French vintners and cheesemakers, they can't get enough of old John Bull. Of course they're going to want to go on making the free market with two backs after we've got the decree nisi. Makes sense, doesn't it?"
> 
> Have no doubt, this is a divorce. It's not just business, it's not going to be all reason and goodwill. Like all divorces, leaving Europe would be ugly and mean and hurtful, and it would lead to a great deal of poisonous xenophobia and racism, all the niggling personal prejudice that dumped, betrayed and thwarted people are prey to. And the racism and prejudice are, of course, weak points for us. The tortuous renegotiation with lawyers and courts will be bitter and vengeful, because divorces always are and, just in passing, this sovereignty thing we're supposed to want back so badly, like Frodo's ring, has nothing to do with you or me. We won't notice it coming back, because we didn't notice not having it in the first place.
> 
> You won't wake up on June 24 and think: "Oh my word, my arthritis has gone! My teeth are suddenly whiter! Magically, I seem to know how to make a soufflé and I'm buff with the power of sovereignty." This is something only politicians care about; it makes not a jot of difference to you or me if the Supreme Court is a bunch of strangely out-of-touch old gits in wigs in Westminster or a load of strangely out-of-touch old gits without wigs in Luxembourg. What matters is that we have as many judges as possible on the side of personal freedom.
> 
> Personally, I see nothing about our legislators in the UK that makes me feel I can confidently give them more power. The more checks and balances politicians have, the better for the rest of us. You can't have too many wise heads and different opinions. If you're really worried about red tape, by the way, it's not just a European problem. We're perfectly capable of coming up with our own rules and regulations and we have no shortage of jobsworths. Red tape may be annoying, but it is also there to protect your and my family from being lied to, poisoned and cheated.
> 
> The first "X" I ever put on a voting slip was to say yes to the EU. The first referendum was when I was 20 years old. This one will be in the week of my 62nd birthday. For nearly all my adult life, there hasn't been a day when I haven't been pleased and proud to be part of this great collective. If you ask me for my nationality, the truth is I feel more European than anything else. I am part of this culture, this European civilisation. I can walk into any gallery on our continent and completely understand the images and the stories on the walls. These people are my people and they have been for thousands of years. I can read books on subjects from Ancient Greece to Dark Ages Scandinavia, from Renaissance Italy to 19th-century France, and I don't need the context or the landscape explained to me. The music of Europe, from its scales and its instruments to its rhythms and religion, is my music. The Renaissance, the rococo, the Romantics, the impressionists, gothic, baroque, neoclassicism, realism, expressionism, futurism, fauvism, cubism, dada, surrealism, postmodernism and kitsch were all European movements and none of them belongs to a single nation.
> 
> There is a reason why the Chinese are making fake Italian handbags and the Italians aren't making fake Chinese ones. This European culture, without question or argument, is the greatest, most inventive, subtle, profound, beautiful and powerful genius that was ever contrived anywhere by anyone and it belongs to us. Just look at my day job - food. The change in food culture and pleasure has been enormous since we joined the EU, and that's no coincidence. What we eat, the ingredients, the recipes, may come from around the world, but it is the collective to and fro of European interests, expertise and imagination that has made it all so very appetising and exciting.
> 
> The restaurant was a European invention, naturally. The first one in Paris was called The London Bridge.
> 
> Culture works and grows through the constant warp and weft of creators, producers, consumers, intellectuals and instinctive lovers. You can't dictate or legislate for it, you can just make a place that encourages it and you can truncate it. You can make it harder and more grudging, you can put up barriers and you can build walls, but why on earth would you? This collective culture, this golden civilisation grown on this continent over thousands of years, has made everything we have and everything we are, why would you not want to be part of it?
> 
> I understand that if we leave we don't have to hand back our library ticket for European civilisation, but why would we even think about it? In fact, the only ones who would are those old, philistine scared gits. Look at them, too frightened to join in.


----------



## jamman

Spot on


----------



## Trouble4

"""" SPANDEX """""


> fall outside UK law


you helped me out on Law Sharia Courts....... So, Example: Killing a Dog as to slaughter on a alter for Religious Holiday yet a neighbor is of a different culture and believes this is wrong...... If UK law does not have a law against slaughtering a dog... nothing is wrong as far as law. but if against UK law what happens ? and can neighbor complain to Sharia Courts ?

(knowing that anybody can complain ect ect...)

Does UK Law take precedence ???


----------



## bobclive22

> Wanting the country back is the constant mantra of all the outies. Farage slurs it, Gove insinuates it. Of course I know what they mean. We all know what they mean. They mean back from Johnny Foreigner, back from the brink, back from the future, back-to-back, back to bosky hedges and dry stone walls and country lanes and church bells and warm beer and skittles and football rattles and cheery banter and clogs on cobbles. Back to vicars-and-tarts parties and Carry On fart jokes, back to Elgar and fudge and proper weather and herbaceous borders and cars called Morris. Back to victoria sponge and 22 yards to a wicket and 15 hands to a horse and 3ft to a yard and four fingers in a Kit Kat, back to gooseberries not avocados, back to deference and respect, to make do and mend and smiling bravely and biting your lip and suffering in silence and patronising foreigners with pity.


Tell that to the Swiss, they have seen the light before it was too late.

*Only a few lunatics want to join the EU now': Switzerland WITHDRAWS application to become a European Union member state one week before the Brexit vote*

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -vote.html


----------



## bobclive22

> I agree, but I think it goes further than that. There's something very very wrong when our own government are willing to abdicate responsibility for such a massively important decision purely because of party politics and in-fighting. *We should never have been asked to make this decision.*


Come up and say that to the residents of Shirebrook, is it the same where you live?.

https://timawells.wordpress.com/2016/06 ... ke-ashley/


----------



## John-H

Spandex said:


> fut1a said:
> 
> 
> 
> Whatever happens with the vote in or out there is something very wrong when people in public office who we should be able to trust, can blatantly lie to the public and get away with it. How can we make an informed decision when we are not given the facts.
> 
> We should all be fighting for the same thing and that is reform. Things need to change when these people can lie and not be held to account.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree, but I think it goes further than that. There's something very very wrong when our own government are willing to abdicate responsibility for such a massively important decision purely because of party politics and in-fighting. We should never have been asked to make this decision.
Click to expand...

Absolutely. Can we start a petition to make that point? Perhaps with enough signatures in support it will give parliament a valid reason to have a vote on overturning the results of this bogus referendum on that basis. :!:



Spandex said:


> A A Gill wrote a piece for the Times which was right on the money in a lot of ways. Not a serious fact-based argument about laws and economics but, in my opinion, an insightful view of the average Leave voters view of Britain:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was the woman on Question Time ......
> ........
> .......
> ...... Look at them, too frightened to join in.
Click to expand...




jamman said:


> Spot on


Absolutely spot on.


----------



## bobclive22

> I understand that if we leave we don't have to hand back our library ticket for European civilisation, but why would we even think about it? In fact, the only ones who would are those old, philistine scared gits. Look at them, too frightened to join in.


I understand that if we leave we don't have to hand back our library ticket for European civilisation, but why would we even think about it? . *We think about it and act upon it because we have that entrepreneurial spirit and believe we can do things better and improve our lives freed from the shackles of this failing EU.
*


----------



## John-H

Trouble4 said:


> """" SPANDEX """""
> 
> 
> 
> fall outside UK law
> 
> 
> 
> you helped me out on Law Sharia Courts....... So, Example: Killing a Dog as to slaughter on a alter for Religious Holiday yet a neighbor is of a different culture and believes this is wrong...... If UK law does not have a law against slaughtering a dog... nothing is wrong as far as law. but if against UK law what happens ? and can neighbor complain to Sharia Courts ?
> 
> (knowing that anybody can complain ect ect...)
> 
> Does UK Law take precedence ???
Click to expand...

Yes, of course UK law takes precedence over Sharia Courts.


----------



## John-H

bobclive22 said:


> I understand that if we leave we don't have to hand back our library ticket for European civilisation, but why would we even think about it? In fact, the only ones who would are those old, philistine scared gits. Look at them, too frightened to join in.
> 
> 
> 
> I understand that if we leave we don't have to hand back our library ticket for European civilisation, but why would we even think about it? . *We think about it and act upon it because we have that entrepreneurial spirit and believe we can do things better and improve our lives freed from the shackles of this failing EU.
> *
Click to expand...

It's you! Bob, you are that woman on question time! :lol: :wink:


----------



## rustyintegrale

Spandex said:


> A A Gill wrote a piece for the Times which was right on the money in a lot of ways. Not a serious fact-based argument about laws and economics but, in my opinion, an insightful view of the average Leave voters view of Britain:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was the woman on Question Time that really did it for me. She was so familiar. There is someone like her in every queue, every coffee shop, outside every school in every parish council in the country. Middle-aged, middle-class, middle-brow, over-made-up, with her National Health face and weatherproof English expression of hurt righteousness, she's Britannia's mother-in-law. The camera closed in on her and she shouted: "All I want is my country back. Give me my country back."
> 
> It was a heartfelt cry of real distress and the rest of the audience erupted in sympathetic applause, but I thought: "Back from what? Back from where?"
> 
> Wanting the country back is the constant mantra of all the outies. Farage slurs it, Gove insinuates it. Of course I know what they mean. We all know what they mean. They mean back from Johnny Foreigner, back from the brink, back from the future, back-to-back, back to bosky hedges and dry stone walls and country lanes and church bells and warm beer and skittles and football rattles and cheery banter and clogs on cobbles. Back to vicars-and-tarts parties and Carry On fart jokes, back to Elgar and fudge and proper weather and herbaceous borders and cars called Morris. Back to victoria sponge and 22 yards to a wicket and 15 hands to a horse and 3ft to a yard and four fingers in a Kit Kat, back to gooseberries not avocados, back to deference and respect, to make do and mend and smiling bravely and biting your lip and suffering in silence and patronising foreigners with pity.
> 
> We all know what "getting our country back" means. It's snorting a line of the most pernicious and debilitating Little English drug, nostalgia. The warm, crumbly, honey-coloured, collective "yesterday" with its fond belief that everything was better back then, that Britain (England, really) is a worse place now than it was at some foggy point in the past where we achieved peak Blighty. It's the knowledge that the best of us have been and gone, that nothing we can build will be as lovely as a National Trust Georgian country house, no art will be as good as a Turner, no poem as wonderful as If, no writer a touch on Shakespeare or Dickens, nothing will grow as lovely as a cottage garden, no hero greater than Nelson, no politician better than Churchill, no view more throat-catching than the White Cliffs and that we will never manufacture anything as great as a Rolls-Royce or Flying Scotsman again.
> 
> The dream of Brexit isn't that we might be able to make a brighter, new, energetic tomorrow, it's a desire to shuffle back to a regret-curdled inward-looking yesterday. In the Brexit fantasy, the best we can hope for is to kick out all the work-all-hours foreigners and become caretakers to our own past in this self-congratulatory island of moaning and pomposity.
> 
> And if you think that's an exaggeration of the Brexit position, then just listen to the language they use: "We are a nation of inventors and entrepreneurs, we want to put the great back in Britain, the great engineers, the great manufacturers." This is all the expression of a sentimental nostalgia. In the Brexiteer's mind's eye is the old Pathé newsreel of Donald Campbell, of John Logie Baird with his television, Barnes Wallis and his bouncing bomb, and Robert Baden-Powell inventing boy scouts in his shed.
> 
> All we need, their argument goes, is to be free of the humourless Germans and spoilsport French and all their collective liberalism and reality. There is a concomitant hope that if we manage to back out of Europe, then we'll get back to the bowler-hatted 1950s and the Commonwealth will hold pageants, fireworks displays and beg to be back in the Queen Empress's good books again. Then New Zealand will sacrifice a thousand lambs, Ghana will ask if it can go back to being called the Gold Coast and Britain will resume hand-making Land Rovers and top hats and Sheffield plate teapots.
> 
> There is a reason that most of the people who want to leave the EU are old while those who want to remain are young: it's because the young aren't infected with Bisto nostalgia. They don't recognise half the stuff I've mentioned here. They've grown up in the EU and at worst it's been neutral for them.
> 
> The under-thirties want to be part of things, not aloof from them. They're about being joined-up and counted. I imagine a phrase most outies identify with is "women's liberation has gone too far". Everything has gone too far for them, from political correctness - well, that's gone mad, hasn't it? - to health and safety and gender-neutral lavatories. Those oldies, they don't know if they're coming or going, what with those newfangled mobile phones and kids on Tinder and Grindr. What happened to meeting Miss Joan Hunter Dunn at the tennis club? And don't get them started on electric hand dryers, or something unrecognised in the bagging area, or Indian call centres , or the impertinent computer asking for a password that has both capitals and little letters and numbers and more than eight digits.
> 
> We listen to the Brexit lot talk about the trade deals they're going to make with Europe after we leave, and the blithe insouciance that what they're offering instead of EU membership is a divorce where you can still have sex with your ex. They reckon they can get out of the marriage, keep the house, not pay alimony, take the kids out of school, stop the in-laws going to the doctor, get strict with the visiting rights, but, you know, still get a shag at the weekend and, obviously, see other people on the side.
> 
> Really, that's their best offer? That's the plan? To swagger into Brussels with Union Jack pants on and say: " 'Ello luv, you're looking nice today. Would you like some?"
> 
> When the rest of us ask how that's really going to work, leavers reply, with Terry-Thomas smirks, that "they're going to still really fancy us, honest, they're gagging for us. Possibly not Merkel, but the bosses of Mercedes and those French vintners and cheesemakers, they can't get enough of old John Bull. Of course they're going to want to go on making the free market with two backs after we've got the decree nisi. Makes sense, doesn't it?"
> 
> Have no doubt, this is a divorce. It's not just business, it's not going to be all reason and goodwill. Like all divorces, leaving Europe would be ugly and mean and hurtful, and it would lead to a great deal of poisonous xenophobia and racism, all the niggling personal prejudice that dumped, betrayed and thwarted people are prey to. And the racism and prejudice are, of course, weak points for us. The tortuous renegotiation with lawyers and courts will be bitter and vengeful, because divorces always are and, just in passing, this sovereignty thing we're supposed to want back so badly, like Frodo's ring, has nothing to do with you or me. We won't notice it coming back, because we didn't notice not having it in the first place.
> 
> You won't wake up on June 24 and think: "Oh my word, my arthritis has gone! My teeth are suddenly whiter! Magically, I seem to know how to make a soufflé and I'm buff with the power of sovereignty." This is something only politicians care about; it makes not a jot of difference to you or me if the Supreme Court is a bunch of strangely out-of-touch old gits in wigs in Westminster or a load of strangely out-of-touch old gits without wigs in Luxembourg. What matters is that we have as many judges as possible on the side of personal freedom.
> 
> Personally, I see nothing about our legislators in the UK that makes me feel I can confidently give them more power. The more checks and balances politicians have, the better for the rest of us. You can't have too many wise heads and different opinions. If you're really worried about red tape, by the way, it's not just a European problem. We're perfectly capable of coming up with our own rules and regulations and we have no shortage of jobsworths. Red tape may be annoying, but it is also there to protect your and my family from being lied to, poisoned and cheated.
> 
> The first "X" I ever put on a voting slip was to say yes to the EU. The first referendum was when I was 20 years old. This one will be in the week of my 62nd birthday. For nearly all my adult life, there hasn't been a day when I haven't been pleased and proud to be part of this great collective. If you ask me for my nationality, the truth is I feel more European than anything else. I am part of this culture, this European civilisation. I can walk into any gallery on our continent and completely understand the images and the stories on the walls. These people are my people and they have been for thousands of years. I can read books on subjects from Ancient Greece to Dark Ages Scandinavia, from Renaissance Italy to 19th-century France, and I don't need the context or the landscape explained to me. The music of Europe, from its scales and its instruments to its rhythms and religion, is my music. The Renaissance, the rococo, the Romantics, the impressionists, gothic, baroque, neoclassicism, realism, expressionism, futurism, fauvism, cubism, dada, surrealism, postmodernism and kitsch were all European movements and none of them belongs to a single nation.
> 
> There is a reason why the Chinese are making fake Italian handbags and the Italians aren't making fake Chinese ones. This European culture, without question or argument, is the greatest, most inventive, subtle, profound, beautiful and powerful genius that was ever contrived anywhere by anyone and it belongs to us. Just look at my day job - food. The change in food culture and pleasure has been enormous since we joined the EU, and that's no coincidence. What we eat, the ingredients, the recipes, may come from around the world, but it is the collective to and fro of European interests, expertise and imagination that has made it all so very appetising and exciting.
> 
> The restaurant was a European invention, naturally. The first one in Paris was called The London Bridge.
> 
> Culture works and grows through the constant warp and weft of creators, producers, consumers, intellectuals and instinctive lovers. You can't dictate or legislate for it, you can just make a place that encourages it and you can truncate it. You can make it harder and more grudging, you can put up barriers and you can build walls, but why on earth would you? This collective culture, this golden civilisation grown on this continent over thousands of years, has made everything we have and everything we are, why would you not want to be part of it?
> 
> I understand that if we leave we don't have to hand back our library ticket for European civilisation, but why would we even think about it? In fact, the only ones who would are those old, philistine scared gits. Look at them, too frightened to join in.
Click to expand...

Perfect. I'm going to copy and paste that everywhere. I think some people need reminding what 'Bisto Britain' really was like.

I love that expression too.


----------



## bobclive22

A comment relating to Shirebrook please, or do we just ignore the actual evidence that mass immigration is destroying our English culture.



> Perfect. I'm going to copy and paste that everywhere. I think some people need reminding what 'Bisto Britain' really was like.


*You are not old enough to know what is was like,* I am, it was a kinder happier world where people actually spoke to one another, not anonymously ruined lives on anti social media.


----------



## TTMBTT

rustyintegrale said:


> Spandex said:
> 
> 
> 
> A A Gill wrote a piece for the Times which was right on the money in a lot of ways. Not a serious fact-based argument about laws and economics but, in my opinion, an insightful view of the average Leave voters view of Britain:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was the woman on Question Time that really did it for me. She was so familiar. There is someone like her in every queue, every coffee shop, outside every school in every parish council in the country. Middle-aged, middle-class, middle-brow, over-made-up, with her National Health face and weatherproof English expression of hurt righteousness, she's Britannia's mother-in-law. The camera closed in on her and she shouted: "All I want is my country back. Give me my country back."
> 
> It was a heartfelt cry of real distress and the rest of the audience erupted in sympathetic applause, but I thought: "Back from what? Back from where?"
> 
> Wanting the country back is the constant mantra of all the outies. Farage slurs it, Gove insinuates it. Of course I know what they mean. We all know what they mean. They mean back from Johnny Foreigner, back from the brink, back from the future, back-to-back, back to bosky hedges and dry stone walls and country lanes and church bells and warm beer and skittles and football rattles and cheery banter and clogs on cobbles. Back to vicars-and-tarts parties and Carry On fart jokes, back to Elgar and fudge and proper weather and herbaceous borders and cars called Morris. Back to victoria sponge and 22 yards to a wicket and 15 hands to a horse and 3ft to a yard and four fingers in a Kit Kat, back to gooseberries not avocados, back to deference and respect, to make do and mend and smiling bravely and biting your lip and suffering in silence and patronising foreigners with pity.
> 
> We all know what "getting our country back" means. It's snorting a line of the most pernicious and debilitating Little English drug, nostalgia. The warm, crumbly, honey-coloured, collective "yesterday" with its fond belief that everything was better back then, that Britain (England, really) is a worse place now than it was at some foggy point in the past where we achieved peak Blighty. It's the knowledge that the best of us have been and gone, that nothing we can build will be as lovely as a National Trust Georgian country house, no art will be as good as a Turner, no poem as wonderful as If, no writer a touch on Shakespeare or Dickens, nothing will grow as lovely as a cottage garden, no hero greater than Nelson, no politician better than Churchill, no view more throat-catching than the White Cliffs and that we will never manufacture anything as great as a Rolls-Royce or Flying Scotsman again.
> 
> The dream of Brexit isn't that we might be able to make a brighter, new, energetic tomorrow, it's a desire to shuffle back to a regret-curdled inward-looking yesterday. In the Brexit fantasy, the best we can hope for is to kick out all the work-all-hours foreigners and become caretakers to our own past in this self-congratulatory island of moaning and pomposity.
> 
> And if you think that's an exaggeration of the Brexit position, then just listen to the language they use: "We are a nation of inventors and entrepreneurs, we want to put the great back in Britain, the great engineers, the great manufacturers." This is all the expression of a sentimental nostalgia. In the Brexiteer's mind's eye is the old Pathé newsreel of Donald Campbell, of John Logie Baird with his television, Barnes Wallis and his bouncing bomb, and Robert Baden-Powell inventing boy scouts in his shed.
> 
> All we need, their argument goes, is to be free of the humourless Germans and spoilsport French and all their collective liberalism and reality. There is a concomitant hope that if we manage to back out of Europe, then we'll get back to the bowler-hatted 1950s and the Commonwealth will hold pageants, fireworks displays and beg to be back in the Queen Empress's good books again. Then New Zealand will sacrifice a thousand lambs, Ghana will ask if it can go back to being called the Gold Coast and Britain will resume hand-making Land Rovers and top hats and Sheffield plate teapots.
> 
> There is a reason that most of the people who want to leave the EU are old while those who want to remain are young: it's because the young aren't infected with Bisto nostalgia. They don't recognise half the stuff I've mentioned here. They've grown up in the EU and at worst it's been neutral for them.
> 
> The under-thirties want to be part of things, not aloof from them. They're about being joined-up and counted. I imagine a phrase most outies identify with is "women's liberation has gone too far". Everything has gone too far for them, from political correctness - well, that's gone mad, hasn't it? - to health and safety and gender-neutral lavatories. Those oldies, they don't know if they're coming or going, what with those newfangled mobile phones and kids on Tinder and Grindr. What happened to meeting Miss Joan Hunter Dunn at the tennis club? And don't get them started on electric hand dryers, or something unrecognised in the bagging area, or Indian call centres , or the impertinent computer asking for a password that has both capitals and little letters and numbers and more than eight digits.
> 
> We listen to the Brexit lot talk about the trade deals they're going to make with Europe after we leave, and the blithe insouciance that what they're offering instead of EU membership is a divorce where you can still have sex with your ex. They reckon they can get out of the marriage, keep the house, not pay alimony, take the kids out of school, stop the in-laws going to the doctor, get strict with the visiting rights, but, you know, still get a shag at the weekend and, obviously, see other people on the side.
> 
> Really, that's their best offer? That's the plan? To swagger into Brussels with Union Jack pants on and say: " 'Ello luv, you're looking nice today. Would you like some?"
> 
> When the rest of us ask how that's really going to work, leavers reply, with Terry-Thomas smirks, that "they're going to still really fancy us, honest, they're gagging for us. Possibly not Merkel, but the bosses of Mercedes and those French vintners and cheesemakers, they can't get enough of old John Bull. Of course they're going to want to go on making the free market with two backs after we've got the decree nisi. Makes sense, doesn't it?"
> 
> Have no doubt, this is a divorce. It's not just business, it's not going to be all reason and goodwill. Like all divorces, leaving Europe would be ugly and mean and hurtful, and it would lead to a great deal of poisonous xenophobia and racism, all the niggling personal prejudice that dumped, betrayed and thwarted people are prey to. And the racism and prejudice are, of course, weak points for us. The tortuous renegotiation with lawyers and courts will be bitter and vengeful, because divorces always are and, just in passing, this sovereignty thing we're supposed to want back so badly, like Frodo's ring, has nothing to do with you or me. We won't notice it coming back, because we didn't notice not having it in the first place.
> 
> You won't wake up on June 24 and think: "Oh my word, my arthritis has gone! My teeth are suddenly whiter! Magically, I seem to know how to make a soufflé and I'm buff with the power of sovereignty." This is something only politicians care about; it makes not a jot of difference to you or me if the Supreme Court is a bunch of strangely out-of-touch old gits in wigs in Westminster or a load of strangely out-of-touch old gits without wigs in Luxembourg. What matters is that we have as many judges as possible on the side of personal freedom.
> 
> Personally, I see nothing about our legislators in the UK that makes me feel I can confidently give them more power. The more checks and balances politicians have, the better for the rest of us. You can't have too many wise heads and different opinions. If you're really worried about red tape, by the way, it's not just a European problem. We're perfectly capable of coming up with our own rules and regulations and we have no shortage of jobsworths. Red tape may be annoying, but it is also there to protect your and my family from being lied to, poisoned and cheated.
> 
> The first "X" I ever put on a voting slip was to say yes to the EU. The first referendum was when I was 20 years old. This one will be in the week of my 62nd birthday. For nearly all my adult life, there hasn't been a day when I haven't been pleased and proud to be part of this great collective. If you ask me for my nationality, the truth is I feel more European than anything else. I am part of this culture, this European civilisation. I can walk into any gallery on our continent and completely understand the images and the stories on the walls. These people are my people and they have been for thousands of years. I can read books on subjects from Ancient Greece to Dark Ages Scandinavia, from Renaissance Italy to 19th-century France, and I don't need the context or the landscape explained to me. The music of Europe, from its scales and its instruments to its rhythms and religion, is my music. The Renaissance, the rococo, the Romantics, the impressionists, gothic, baroque, neoclassicism, realism, expressionism, futurism, fauvism, cubism, dada, surrealism, postmodernism and kitsch were all European movements and none of them belongs to a single nation.
> 
> There is a reason why the Chinese are making fake Italian handbags and the Italians aren't making fake Chinese ones. This European culture, without question or argument, is the greatest, most inventive, subtle, profound, beautiful and powerful genius that was ever contrived anywhere by anyone and it belongs to us. Just look at my day job - food. The change in food culture and pleasure has been enormous since we joined the EU, and that's no coincidence. What we eat, the ingredients, the recipes, may come from around the world, but it is the collective to and fro of European interests, expertise and imagination that has made it all so very appetising and exciting.
> 
> The restaurant was a European invention, naturally. The first one in Paris was called The London Bridge.
> 
> Culture works and grows through the constant warp and weft of creators, producers, consumers, intellectuals and instinctive lovers. You can't dictate or legislate for it, you can just make a place that encourages it and you can truncate it. You can make it harder and more grudging, you can put up barriers and you can build walls, but why on earth would you? This collective culture, this golden civilisation grown on this continent over thousands of years, has made everything we have and everything we are, why would you not want to be part of it?
> 
> I understand that if we leave we don't have to hand back our library ticket for European civilisation, but why would we even think about it? In fact, the only ones who would are those old, philistine scared gits. Look at them, too frightened to join in.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Perfect. I'm going to copy and paste that everywhere. I think some people need reminding what 'Bisto Britain' really was like.
> 
> I love that expression too.
Click to expand...

Perfect, this truly explains what the leave camp hanker after. I recognise all of those impossible ideals that they need to recover. WE HAVE ALL MOVED ON.....the danger is that in ignorance the vote will misguidedly be to leave. Utter, Utter disaster.


----------



## cheechy

bobclive22 said:


> A comment relating to Shirebrook please, or do we just ignore the actual evidence that mass immigration is destroying our English culture.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Perfect. I'm going to copy and paste that everywhere. I think some people need reminding what 'Bisto Britain' really was like.
> 
> 
> 
> *You are not old enough to know what is was like,* I am, it was a kinder happier world where people actually spoke to one another, not anonymously ruined lives on anti social media.
Click to expand...

Again great example that brexit supporters are not listening and voting for what they want rather than what they will actually get.

You still utterly convinced that Brexit will fix the immigration question then? Who has stated this?


----------



## cheechy

I'm fast getting to the conclusion that anyone over retirement age shouldn't be allowed to vote on this (tongue in cheek of course) as in the end it's not their future that will be destroyed by a generation that potentially won't be around to see the mess they have left behind

This is the generation most likely to be hung up in the past with no job to lose, no family to support.

This is a vote for our future not our past.


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> A comment relating to Shirebrook please, or do we just ignore the actual evidence that mass immigration is destroying our English culture.


Bloody foreigners... Coming over here and stealing jobs that are so piss poor no one should have to do them.

Don't worry Bob... I'm joking. Mainly because you don't listen when I write anything anyway so I might as well just enjoy myself.


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> *You are not old enough to know what is was like,* I am, it was a kinder happier world where people actually spoke to one another, not anonymously ruined lives on anti social media.


The thing is the world *hasn't* got worse, you've just got old. It happens to us all - the world changes and rather than changing with it, like we did when we were younger, we lose touch. And it creeps up on us so we don't know it's happening (or has happened) so we become convinced its not us. Add to that the fact that it's happening to all our peers, so they reinforce the feeling that it's the world that's gone wrong.

You do realise that people who were old back when you picture that 'kinder happier world' will have felt the same as you do now? They'll have been moaning about how it was better when they were kids and how everything was terrible now.


----------



## Dash

bobclive22 said:


> *You are not old enough to know what is was like,* I am, it was a kinder happier world where people actually spoke to one another, not anonymously ruined lives on anti social media.


You sound like a crazy old man if you think that leaving the EU is suddenly going to get people talking to each other and shunning technology.

Personally I'm less likely to talk to my neighbours for fear they're one of these angry internally looking blame monkies that voted to leave.


----------



## leopard

Funny how the remainers are hanging onto a.a Gill's shirt tails...a restaurant critique for the Sunday Times and quite rightly more qualified to talk about Bisto and self opinionated garbage than most...smacks of desperation :lol:

Now post up Rod liddle's opinion from the same rag to cancel it out


----------



## Spandex

leopard said:


> Funny how the remainers are hanging onto a.a Gill's shirt tails...a restaurant critique for the Sunday Times and quite rightly more qualified to talk about Bisto and self opinionated garbage than most...smacks of desperation :lol:
> 
> Now post up Rod liddle's opinion from the same rag to cancel it out


Not really how it works though, is it? You don't collect every opinion in the universe, add them up, then the side with the most opinions wins...

If there's something covered by his article that you don't feel he's qualified to talk about, then by all means point it out. I personally wouldn't trust Gill's opinion on economics or law or international security, but think he's as qualified as any of us to talk about people. And considering he managed to describe Bob with the sort of precision that left me wondering if he'd been hiding for the past month in a tree at the bottom of Bobs garden with a pair of high power binoculars, I think he might actually be on to something here. :wink:


----------



## leopard

Spandex said:


> Not really how it works though, is it? You don't collect every opinion in the universe, add them up, then the side with the most opinions wins...


It does if the diametrically opposed opinions are coming from the same article...one jovial opinion for in that's more an exercise in wordsmithery and one for out that at least makes a valid point...too many biased opinions on here to remain as it is...not a ram it down your throat session for those that won't listen to the in campaign argument


----------



## Spandex

leopard said:


> Spandex said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not really how it works though, is it? You don't collect every opinion in the universe, add them up, then the side with the most opinions wins...
> 
> 
> 
> It does if the diametrically opposed opinions are coming from the same article...one jovial opinion for in that's more an exercise in wordsmithery and one for out that at least makes a valid point...too many biased opinions on here to remain as it is...not a ram it down your throat session for those that won't listen to the in campaign argument
Click to expand...

I assume you mean the same newspaper, not same article? It's beginging to sound a _little bit_ like you're making up bizarre rules about what you can and can't post just because you didn't like a particular article... Just a little bit...

I love it - When someone posts a Remain opinion it's biased. When someone posts a Leave opinion, it's not? Come on... We've all made our choice. We're all biased now. Even you.


----------



## leopard

Spandex said:


> leopard said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spandex said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not really how it works though, is it? You don't collect every opinion in the universe, add them up, then the side with the most opinions wins...
> 
> 
> 
> It does if the diametrically opposed opinions are coming from the same article...one jovial opinion for in that's more an exercise in wordsmithery and one for out that at least makes a valid point...too many biased opinions on here to remain as it is...not a ram it down your throat session for those that won't listen to the in campaign argument
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I assume you mean the same newspaper, not same article? It's beginging to sound a _little bit_ like you're making up bizarre rules about what you can and can't post just because you didn't like a particular article... Just a little bit...
> 
> I love it - When someone posts a Remain opinion it's biased. When someone posts a Leave opinion, it's not? Come on... We've all made our choice. We're all biased now. Even you.
Click to expand...

No,the same article.I've just gone and retrieved the hardcopy from the recycling bin.Sunday Times magazine page 10 onwards " The Europe Issue " with opinions from Liddle and Gill.

I'm making up no rules here,just observing them,akin to a dog with a rope :wink:


----------



## Spandex

Ahh, they put two articles back to back to show two views.. Still no idea why I would need to post the other one (or any other I didn't agree with). As I said, we've all made our decisions here. I'm not trying to provide an unbiased viewpoint, because I'm not unbiased - I'm very firmly biased in favour of Remain because I think it's the most sensible choice. Just the same as you're biased towards Leave. So if you want to post pro-Leave stuff, knock yourself out. If not, don't moan that someone else didn't post it for you.


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## leopard

Don't worry I don't need to knock myself out and post anything to get a point across,I'm getting all the entertainment and laughs I need from your posts....
Thanks :lol:


----------



## Spandex

leopard said:


> Don't worry I don't need to knock myself out and post anything to get a point across,I'm getting all the entertainment and laughs I need from your posts....
> Thanks :lol:


Excellent news. I also feel that you not posting anything is the best approach. :wink:


----------



## leopard

Spandex said:


> leopard said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't worry I don't need to knock myself out and post anything to get a point across,I'm getting all the entertainment and laughs I need from your posts....
> Thanks :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> Excellent news. I also feel that you not posting anything is the best approach. :wink:
Click to expand...

....until the next time


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## jamman

Spandex 1 Spotty Cat 0


----------



## bobclive22

> I'm fast getting to the conclusion that anyone over retirement age shouldn't be allowed to vote on this (tongue in cheek of course) as in the end it's not their future that will be destroyed by a generation that potentially won't be around to see the mess they have left behind


I don`t believe the Spanish, Greek and French unemployed youngsters would agree with this condescending crap, their future has already been destroyed by joining the EU and being locked into the Euro.

I post this once more, this is the future certainly for the poorer parts of the UK if we stay in the EU with open borders.
Comments please from the remain camp, nothing to say.

https://timawells.wordpress.com/2016/06 ... ke-ashley/


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> I don`t believe the Spanish, Greek and French unemployed youngsters would agree with this condescending crap, their future has already been destroyed by joining the EU and being locked into the Euro.


Once again, you're not looking at this the right way. You're comparing their situation many many years ago with their situation now, then making a load of assumptions which basically back up your pre-formed opinion.

The Greek and Spanish financial situation was triggered by a global recession. In order to know if being in the EU has made the effects of that recession worse, you need to compare with what would have happened if they'd *not been in* the EU during a massive recession. Can you do that? I'm buggered if I can work out how you could calculate that, but maybe you'll surprise me.


----------



## bobclive22

> The Greek and Spanish financial situation was triggered by a global recession. In order to know if being in the EU has made the effects of that recession worse, you need to compare with what would have happened if they'd not been in the EU during a massive recession.


They CANNOT devalue their currency, it`s not rocket science.

A devaluation occurs when the exchange rate falls in value. This causes exports to be cheaper and imports to be more expensive. In theory, it can help increase economic growth, though it may cause inflation.
The impact of a devaluation depends on economic circumstances. If a country is *suffering from being uncompetitive with high unemployment and low inflation - a devaluation may help considerably.*

This explains it.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... o-eurozone.


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> They CANNOT devalue their currency, it`s not rocket science.
> 
> A devaluation occurs when the exchange rate falls in value. This causes exports to be cheaper and imports to be more expensive. In theory, it can help increase economic growth, though it may cause inflation.
> The impact of a devaluation depends on economic circumstances. If a country is *suffering from being uncompetitive with high unemployment and low inflation - a devaluation may help considerably.*


Yes, it *may* help. It may not. But you're not talking about possibilities, are you? You're saying you're certain the EU is responsible. I'm asking how you can possibly know this.

That being said, I'm no great supporter of the Euro (as opposed to the EU). I think it has a number of benefits, but as we've seen, there are fundamental issues when global financial problems occur. But we're not in the Euro and there is no real chance of us ever joining so it's a bit of an irrelevance in this debate (I know Leave supporters like to do their scaremongering bit by claiming we're definitely going to join the Euro if we stay in the EU, but we all know this is nonsense). The Remain argument has always been that Britain has a very cushy position in the EU compared to other countries because we have avoided a lot of the less desirable aspects (such as Schengen and the Euro) whilst having full access to the free market.

P.S. Much easier to read with the quote. Ta.


----------



## bobclive22

> Yes, it may help. It may not. But you're not talking about possibilities, are you? You're saying you're certain the EU is responsible. I'm asking how you can possibly know this.


Because Spain has lost all ability to control it`s own currency, do a little research.

There is now a tangible risk, albeit small, that a country like Spain might go for the nuclear option and leave the euro altogether, because this might eventually prove to be *the only way that Spain can regain its competitiveness and end its economic misery. *

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17753891



> But we're not in the Euro and there is no real chance of us ever joining


Don`t bank on it.


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> Because Spain has lost all ability to control it`s own currency, do a little research.
> 
> There is now a tangible risk, albeit small, that a country like Spain might go for the nuclear option and leave the euro altogether, because this might eventually prove to be *the only way that Spain can regain its competitiveness and end its economic misery. *
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17753891


Doing some research won't tell me what would have happened to Spain if they'd never joined the EU or Euro. What you're doing is creating artificial scenarios by picking a moment in time and saying "is it better or worse to be in the Euro right at that moment". But that tells you nothing because it was never a choice they had.



bobclive22 said:


> Don`t bank on it.


I think I will bank on it unless someone can present some compelling evidence not to. People like you saying it's going to happen isn't that convincing though.


----------



## bobclive22

> I think I will bank on it unless someone can present some compelling evidence not to. People like you saying it's going to happen isn't that convincing though.


I have houses and enough funds to see me OK no matter which way it goes but I am still voting out, when the proverbial s**t hits the fan it wont be me that will be effected. I showed you what happened at Shirebrook, there are many other similar effected areas in the UK caused solely because of uncontrolled immigration. The EU would not budge on this issue therefore it will only get worse. If we stay immigration will inevitably carry on at the same level, especially with Turkey knocking on the door, you appear to be voting for that exact scenario.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-e ... m-36510009


----------



## TTMBTT

bobclive22 said:


> I'm fast getting to the conclusion that anyone over retirement age shouldn't be allowed to vote on this (tongue in cheek of course) as in the end it's not their future that will be destroyed by a generation that potentially won't be around to see the mess they have left behind
> 
> 
> 
> I don`t believe the Spanish, Greek and French unemployed youngsters would agree with this condescending crap, their future has already been destroyed by joining the EU and being locked into the Euro.
> 
> I post this once more, this is the future certainly for the poorer parts of the UK if we stay in the EU with open borders.
> Comments please from the remain camp, nothing to say.
> 
> https://timawells.wordpress.com/2016/06 ... ke-ashley/
Click to expand...

With regards Greece think it was the bankers "Goldman Sachs" that ruined their economy not the euro!!!


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> I have houses and enough funds to see me OK no matter which way it goes but I am still voting out, when the proverbial s**t hits the fan it wont be me that will be effected. I showed you what happened at Shirebrook, there are many other similar effected areas in the UK caused solely because of uncontrolled immigration. The EU would not budge on this issue therefore it will only get worse. If we stay immigration will inevitably carry on at the same level, especially with Turkey knocking on the door, you appear to be voting for that exact scenario.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-e ... m-36510009


You do realise that some diplomat somewhere suggesting that visa free travel is an option means absolutely nothing?


----------



## bobclive22

During the interminable years of the euro crisis, *unemployment in parts of Europe has exceeded Great Depression levels. The citizens of Greece, Spain and elsewhere have been force-fed austerity by the EU with little prospect of eventual economic recovery. *If the EU cared for its citizens, or was properly accountable, *substantive reforms would have been enacted.* This hasn't happened. As a result, discontent across Europe is fostering political extremism of the 1930s variety. Sooner or later something must give.

A vote for Brexit, I believe, puts me in the best company. *It shows solidarity with the long-suffering European public *and complies with the principles of Kant, the greatest of Enlightenment philosophers.

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/06/17/brexit-w ... ntary.html


----------



## bobclive22

> You do realise that some diplomat somewhere suggesting that visa free travel is an option means absolutely nothing?


Malta has come out against a Commission proposal to fast-track Turkey's bid for visa-free travel across the EU.

In comments given prior to the EU's Justice and Home Affairs Council in Brussels, Home Affairs Minister Carmelo Abela insisted that "every third country needs to meet the necessary criteria before being granted EU visa liberalisation."

Turkey has yet to satisfy all the necessary criteria, *but the Commission has said it favours granting the country visa-free travel provided it committed itself to fulfilling the remaining criteria *"as a matter of urgency".

http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/vi ... ree.612674

As I said don`t bet on it.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Viviane Reding, vice president of the European Commission and the longest serving Brussels commissioner, has called for "a true political union" to be put on the agenda for EU elections this spring.

"We need to build a United States of Europe with the Commission as government and two chambers - the European Parliament and a "Senate" of Member States," she said.

Mrs Reding's vision, which is shared by many in the European institutions, *would transform the EU into superstate relegating national governments and parliaments to a minor political role equivalent to that played by local councils in Britain.*

Under her plan, the commission would have supremacy over governments and MEPs in the European Parliament would supersede the sovereignty of MPs in the House of Commons.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... icial.html


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> As I said don`t bet on it.


You did say that. You were talking about the UK joining the Euro when you said it though. What's Turkey got to do with that?

Bob, we can leave the EU any time we want to in the future. If something huge changes which would make the EU less desirable then we can review our position and make an *informed* decision based on actual facts. As opposed to making a decision right now, purely because there happened to be a load of Tory in-fighting about it, when we can only speculate on who will join the EU, when they'll do it and what the EU might morph into in the future.


----------



## cheechy

bobclive22 said:


> You do realise that some diplomat somewhere suggesting that visa free travel is an option means absolutely nothing?
> 
> 
> 
> Malta has come out against a Commission proposal to fast-track Turkey's bid for visa-free travel across the EU.
> 
> In comments given prior to the EU's Justice and Home Affairs Council in Brussels, Home Affairs Minister Carmelo Abela insisted that "every third country needs to meet the necessary criteria before being granted EU visa liberalisation."
> 
> Turkey has yet to satisfy all the necessary criteria, *but the Commission has said it favours granting the country visa-free travel provided it committed itself to fulfilling the remaining criteria *"as a matter of urgency".
> 
> http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/vi ... ree.612674
> 
> As I said don`t bet on it.
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Viviane Reding, vice president of the European Commission and the longest serving Brussels commissioner, has called for "a true political union" to be put on the agenda for EU elections this spring.
> 
> "We need to build a United States of Europe with the Commission as government and two chambers - the European Parliament and a "Senate" of Member States," she said.
> 
> Mrs Reding's vision, which is shared by many in the European institutions, *would transform the EU into superstate relegating national governments and parliaments to a minor political role equivalent to that played by local councils in Britain.*
> 
> Under her plan, the commission would have supremacy over governments and MEPs in the European Parliament would supersede the sovereignty of MPs in the House of Commons.
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... icial.html
Click to expand...

Sorry Bob but who is ever going to agree to this in the uk? I mean I'm in the stay camp but I'd be banging on the door to get out of this.

id really like to hear from anyone still undecided as it's clear from recent posts that no one here us changing their mind!


----------



## cheechy

Spandex said:


> bobclive22 said:
> 
> 
> 
> As I said don`t bet on it.
> 
> 
> 
> You did say that. You were talking about the UK joining the Euro when you said it though. What's Turkey got to do with that?
> 
> Bob, we can leave the EU any time we want to in the future. If something huge changes which would make the EU less desirable then we can review our position and make an *informed* decision based on actual facts. As opposed to making a decision right now, purely because there happened to be a load of Tory in-fighting about it, when we can only speculate on who will join the EU, when they'll do it and what the EU might morph into in the future.
Click to expand...

This is what I despair at tbh....it feels like people who want to leave are scrambling around for arguments to backup to people asking on why they want out.

The reason I want to stay in? Well its finances and more importantly standard of living both post Brexit and future tbh. We are what we are due to our position in Europe as part of the EC. You'll understand if I don't want to cock about with that given I genuinely fear I'll be without a job and will lose thousands in investments due to our position as financial services centre of Europe is destroyed.

That's ok though right as some bankers won't get their bonuses right?

Many many Companies have invested in uk as we are in the EC. It's not the same argument as the euro as ultimately we were still in the EC. If we leave its relatively easy for businesses to up sticks and move into mainland Europe. Why wouldn't they if all if a sudden we start being charged to export for stuff we do well now. Make no mistake Brussels will make an example of the uk in terms of trade agreements.

On the bright side we will have less immigrants though.....as our economy disappears up its own backside.


----------



## Shug750S

More stats...


----------



## rustyintegrale

Shug750S said:


> More stats...


 :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## les

* Business
Leave: 'It is absurd to suggest Britain cannot thrive outside the EU'
Michael Geoghegan, former HSBC chief executive
18 JUNE 2016 • 6:02PM*

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/201 ... tside-the/


----------



## Spandex

les said:


> * Business
> Leave: 'It is absurd to suggest Britain cannot thrive outside the EU'
> Michael Geoghegan, former HSBC chief executive
> 18 JUNE 2016 • 6:02PM*
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/201 ... tside-the/


The *current* HSBC CEO said they would move around 1000 jobs from London to Paris if we leave the EU and that there would be a significant economic loss to Britain as they would have to move a lot of financial activity to other countries. The current HSBC chairman has also backed Remain.

Although I imagine if I'd mentioned an HSBC CEO supporting Remain first, you'd have dismissed it out of hand because we can't trust those dodgy bankers that got us into the recession in the first place. I'd have probably agreed.


----------



## Spandex

A friend shared this video with me and it's probably the best explaination I've seen on the economic and legal impact of leaving the EU. At 25 minutes I have a feeling a lot of people won't watch, but I really recommend everyone takes the time. Even Remain voters should take a look, as it's rare to find truly qualified people explaining the really complex aspects of the referendum so clearly:


> One of the UK's leading EU law experts criticizes the referendum debate's "dishonesty on an industrial scale", as he considers the claims and counter claims from each side.
> 
> University of Liverpool Law School's Professor Michael Dougan has spent his career studying EU law as it relates to the UK; contributing to Parliamentary Select Committees, advising government and now helping media fact check the barrage of assertions emanating from the Remain and Leave camps, in the run up to June 23.


----------



## John-H

The BBC More or Less Referendum by numbers special programme with Tim Harford was very good exploring the truth behind the numbers and giving perspective:

Part 1
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07jczmc

Part 2
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07jl61s


----------



## bobclive22

9:21AM today.
EU referendum will be 'very tight'

Britain's referendum result will be "very tight", the Foreign Secretary says as he arrives in Luxembourg for a meeting with his counterparts.

He says *the deal secured by Cameron in his renegotiation* must have "speedy and complete" implementation following the Remain vote. It requires legislation that must be passed by the European Parliament, *and which could be struck down by the European Court of Justice.*

*Philip Hammond *said: "The referendum battle in the UK is close fought. It will be a very tight result either way. The message we are trying to get across to the British people is this is an irreversible decision. If Britain decides to leave there will be no going back.

*Now why would he say that?.* *which could be struck down by the European Court of Justice*.

Cameron`s weak deal is *NOT* cast in stone.

*Varsi*

Speaking at a public meeting on Thursday night, Warsi said: "One of the things that attracted me to David Cameron was that he was *not obsessed with Europe and immigration. I would hate to think that is where we end up again - obsessing with Europe and immigration.*

*Varsi*

Describing Ukip as "a real issue" that has worried politicians and taken them by surprise, *Warsi said Cameron did believe that the party led by Nigel Farage were "closet racists and loons".*

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... ies-defeat

*Baroness Warsi:* The 'Made in Britain' stamp is the *most prestigious of designer labels*
by Admin on July 17, 2012

*Baroness Warsi *discusses diverse Britain's *global trading opportunities*

*Britain's future trade opportunities lie beyond our immediate neighbours and our traditional trading partners.* *We need to engage with emerging and expanding economies across the world *and I determined to do all I can to support businesses in their mission to branch out in their overseas trade.

https://sayeedawarsi.com/2012/07/17/bar ... #more-1972

*Varsi is just looking after her own interests a typical politician*.


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> Now why would he say that?. *which could be struck down by the European Court of Justice*
> 
> Cameron`s weak deal is NOT cast in stone.


Bonus points for you if you can find a single claim from the Leave campaign which *is* set in stone...


----------



## Spandex




----------



## John-H

Spandex said:


>


The word "next" in this context always confuses me. Is "next Friday" this coming Friday, which is technically the next Friday to come along, or "a week on Friday" as in next week's Friday i.e. the Friday belonging to next week? Having the date specified of course clears up the confusion. Thank heavens for that otherwise the leavers wouldn't know what was coming "next" - come to think of it - they couldn't tell us that either :lol:


----------



## les

https://www.brexitthemovie.com/


----------



## leopard

John-H said:


> Spandex said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The word "next" in this context always confuses me. Is "next Friday" this coming Friday, which is technically the next Friday to come along, or "a week on Friday" as in next week's Friday i.e. the Friday belonging to next week? Having the date specified of course clears up the confusion. Thank heavens for that otherwise the leavers wouldn't know what was coming "next" - come to think of it - they couldn't tell us that either :lol:
Click to expand...

A trifle pedantic there,John 

No worries,what counts is the next day when we've voted out and are set free


----------



## les

John-H said:


> Spandex said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank heavens for that otherwise the leavers wouldn't know what was coming "next" - come to think of it - they couldn't tell us that either :lol:
Click to expand...

Just like if we remain then. Next you will be telling us better the devil you know :roll:

However seeing you insist here are 10 reasons to leave.

1. Freedom to make stronger trade deals with other nations.

2. Freedom to spend UK resources presently through EU membership in the UK to the advantage of our citizens.

3. Freedom to control our national borders.

4. Freedom to restore Britain's special legal system.

5. Freedom to deregulate the EU's costly mass of laws.

6. Freedom to make major savings for British consumers.

7. Freedom to improve the British economy and generate more jobs.

8. Freedom to regenerate Britain's fisheries.

9. Freedom to save the NHS from EU threats to undermine it by harmonising healthcare across the EU, and to reduce welfare payments to non-UK EU citizens.

10. Freedom to restore British customs and traditions.


----------



## Spandex

I was going to reply point by point but I just found myself repeating the same thing over and over; The freedom to do something does not equal the ability to do something.

If we leave we'll end up in a miserable, isolated backwards country, with no money and an abundance of old farts who keep telling us that "at least we're free!!".


----------



## cheechy

Yup debate going round and round. Indeed there is no debate as views on all posting fairly set.

Roll on Thursday (or Friday  )

All I need to say is look at the market today and the affect of some news they liked...ie some data pointing to a more likely remain vote. Huge gains across the board.

No doubt another poll tomorrow will say the opposite and it'll then nose dive again!


----------



## leopard

les said:


> John-H said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spandex said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank heavens for that otherwise the leavers wouldn't know what was coming "next" - come to think of it - they couldn't tell us that either :lol:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Just like if we remain then. Next you will be telling us better the devil you know :roll:
> 
> However seeing you insist here are 10 reasons to leave.
> 
> 1. Freedom to make stronger trade deals with other nations.
> 
> 2. Freedom to spend UK resources presently through EU membership in the UK to the advantage of our citizens.
> 
> 3. Freedom to control our national borders.
> 
> 4. Freedom to restore Britain's special legal system.
> 
> 5. Freedom to deregulate the EU's costly mass of laws.
> 
> 6. Freedom to make major savings for British consumers.
> 
> 7. Freedom to improve the British economy and generate more jobs.
> 
> 8. Freedom to regenerate Britain's fisheries.
> 
> 9. Freedom to save the NHS from EU threats to undermine it by harmonising healthcare across the EU, and to reduce welfare payments to non-UK EU citizens.
> 
> 10. Freedom to restore British customs and traditions.
Click to expand...

Nice one Les !

The new " ten commandment " UK mandate 8)


----------



## les

John-H said:


> [
> Nice one Les !
> 
> The new " ten commandment " UK mandate 8)


 Your welcome john and the 11th one should not give up ones sovereignty.
If you can't control a country by conquering it through war do it politically.


----------



## leopard

les said:


> leopard said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice one Les !
> 
> The new " ten commandment " UK mandate 8)
> 
> 
> 
> Your welcome leopard and the 11th one should not give up ones sovereignty.
> If you can't control a country by conquering it through war do it politically.
Click to expand...

There you go Les, fixed it for you


----------



## les

leopard said:


> les said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> leopard said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice one Les !
> 
> The new " ten commandment " UK mandate 8)
> 
> 
> 
> Your welcome leopard and the 11th one should not give up ones sovereignty.
> If you can't control a country by conquering it through war do it politically.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There you go Les, fixed it for you
Click to expand...

Your such a sweetie John. Thanks. [smiley=iloveyou.gif]


----------



## Shug750S

cheechy said:


> All I need to say is look at the market today and the affect of some news they liked...ie some data pointing to a more likely remain vote. Huge gains across the board.
> 
> No doubt another poll tomorrow will say the opposite and it'll then nose dive again!


Traders got their commission so all good for them. If markets turn tomorrow they get more commission as people sell, so win again...


----------



## bobclive22

Interesting reading below, all may not be what it seems but facts of the article can be checked.

https://theholisticworks.com/2016/06/19 ... d-brendan/


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> Interesting reading below, all may not be what it seems but facts of the article can be checked.
> 
> https://theholisticworks.com/2016/06/19 ... d-brendan/


Well that was a depressing read. I think someone needs to take the Internet off you for a bit...


----------



## jamman

Spandex said:


> bobclive22 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting reading below, all may not be what it seems but facts of the article can be checked.
> 
> https://theholisticworks.com/2016/06/19 ... d-brendan/
> 
> 
> 
> Well that was a depressing read. I think someone needs to take the Internet off you for a bit...
Click to expand...

+1 Isn't Bob a bundle of fun........ NOT


----------



## bobclive22

> Well that was a depressing read. I think someone needs to take the Internet off you for a bit...


As the article said Jo Cox did not appear to concern herself to much with the plight of the young girls only a few miles away.

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/?p=134982

http://www.activistpost.com/2016/05/whi ... ights.html


----------



## jamman

The only positive that has come from Bob in this entire thread is that he has learnt to quote....

NOTHING ELSE

Very sad, Bob it's a beautiful evening go out for a walk and get off the "net"

You can search and find negativity about any person or any subject.


----------



## bobclive22

> The only positive that has come from Bob in this entire thread is that he has learnt to quote.


So show me where she showed any concern or support for those poor girls.

I`m off the watch ENGLAND.


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> The only positive that has come from Bob in this entire thread is that he has learnt to quote.
> 
> 
> 
> So show me where she showed any concern or support for those poor girls.
> 
> I`m off the watch ENGLAND.
Click to expand...

Despite Jo Cox devoting a large part of her time to helping other people, you're going to criticise her for not helping the _right_ people? Jesus, you must be quite the philanthropist to be able to criticise other people's charity and campaigning work.


----------



## Spandex

On a completely unrelated point - JohnH can I quickly check what the forum rules are on calling someone a bell-end?


----------



## jamman

bobclive22 said:


> The only positive that has come from Bob in this entire thread is that he has learnt to quote.
> 
> 
> 
> So show me where she showed any concern or support for those poor girls.
> 
> I`m off the watch ENGLAND.
Click to expand...

That's England jinxed.......


----------



## Trouble4

> JohnH can I quickly check what the forum rules are on calling someone a bell-end?


that is/was very funny 

no matter how the vote goes...... just try to have compassion and treat people with dignity and respect.......

and if those people lose it think hard about if you ever want to forgive them... forgiving is over rated.......

UK needs to be united........ bring common sense back into politics......... [smiley=book2.gif]


----------



## bobclive22

> Despite Jo Cox devoting a large part of her time to helping other people, you're going to criticise her for not helping the right people? Jesus, you must be quite the philanthropist to be able to criticise other people's charity and campaigning work.


NO, she had a choice and chose to ignore the young people in need that lived on her doorstep for those thousands of miles away, charity begins at home.


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> NO, she had a choice and chose to ignore the young people in need that lived on her doorstep for those thousands of miles away, charity begins at home.


I see. What do you believe she should have done?

Given the statistics, it's safe to assume that there are young children in your area being preyed upon by peadophiles (possibly good old Catholic ones, not those horrible Muslim ones though, if that makes a difference) - so, what are you doing to help them Bob? I'm going to be pretty disgusted with you if the answer is 'nothing'.


----------



## les

Britain safer in EU. You couldn't make it up....could you?

Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.
Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.
Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.
Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.
British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.
Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.
Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.
M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.
Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.
Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.
Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.
Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.
Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.
Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.
ICI integration into Holland's AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs
Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.
JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.
UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.
Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.
Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.
The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.
Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.
39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU
The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.

Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn't paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK, the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc., and now we don't even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations.

I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there.
I haven't mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany.

Find something that's gone the other way, I've looked and I just can't. If you think the EU is a good idea,
1/ You haven't read the party manifesto of The European Peoples' Party.
2/ You haven't had to deal with EU petty bureaucracy tearing your business down.
3/ You don't think it matters.


----------



## bobclive22

> Britain safer in EU. You couldn't make it up....could you?


If the young that are voting remain don`t reconsider their position after reading that there is NO hope, as I have said I am well heeled so it won`t bother me either way but I am still voting out, by the way, Craft bought Cadburys in Jan 2010 and moved factory a year later.

*Cameron's migration deception: PM knew FOUR years ago he'd never meet immigration target while inside the EU, reveals former closest aide *

Mr Hilton recalls the warning to Mr Cameron, saying: 'We were told, directly and explicitly, that it was impossible for the Government to meet its immigration target as long as we remained members of the EU, which of course insists on the free movement of people within it.'

His comments amount to a charge that the *Prime Minister has concealed from voters the inevitable failure of his flagship policy since early 2012.*

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -aide.html

*Grieving family reveal war veteran's dying wish was for them to post his Leave vote because 'he was fighting for this country until the end' *

So you youngsters with NO life experiences believe you know best, you will reap what you sow.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... y-end.html


----------



## Spandex

It's a good list. I have a couple of questions though, which I'm sure you can answer:

1. Which of the things on the list could we have prevented if we'd not been an EU member?

2. If we leave the EU, will foreign owned companies:
a) come flocking back because they miss us?
b) move even more of their factories into the EU?


----------



## Grizzlebear

The answer is simple. If we were NOT part of it would we vote to join?

Like feck would we!


----------



## bobclive22

*Our employees paid price of EU dream, admits Red Len: Union boss declares enlargement was 'gigantic experiment at the expense' of British workers*

Writing in the Guardian, *Mr McCluskey said*: 'In the last ten years, there has been a gigantic experiment at the expense of ordinary workers. Countries with vast historical differences in wage rates and living standards have been brought together in a common labour market.

The result has been *sustained pressure on living standards, a systematic attempt to hold down wages and to cut costs of social provision for working people.'*

His comments will heighten fears that working-class Labour supporters will fail to turn out on Thursday - or vote for Leave.

However, *Mr McCluskey said he did not agree that leaving the EU would halt 'the supply of cheap labour coming to Britain'.*

*I wonder how he came to that conclusion.*

The group of eight independent leading economists published the paper as the EU referendum campaign entered its final days. It says the influx from Eastern Europe and elsewhere into low-skilled jobs has led to a heavier burden on communities.

The organisation also cites a paper published by the *Bank of England which found mass migration had driven down wages of millions of Britons.* But it said that *skilled migrants offered a 'huge economic boost'*.

Of course *SKILLED* workers offered a 'huge economic boost, that`s not disputed *it`s the bloody hundreds of thousands of unskilled workers that`s the problem.*

After all that this idiot who is supposedly representing the working classes still supports remain and they wonder why labour voters are for leave.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... rkers.html


----------



## Spandex

Grizzlebear said:


> The answer is simple. If we were NOT part of it would we vote to join?
> 
> Like feck would we!


If we weren't part of the EU and we voted to join, we'd also have to join the Euro and Schengen and various other things we've avoided so far. So, the fact that we wouldn't want to do that doesn't mean that we shouldn't want to stay in.


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> and they wonder why labour voters are for leave.


I'm starting to think you live in a fantasy world. The polls have shown that the majority of Labour voters support us remaining in the EU (and if you're about to say "but we we can't trust the polls", that's fine, as long as you provide your source of information that Labour voters want to leave).

BTW, you've not replied to my previous post about Jo Cox. I'm still waiting to hear of your work to save vulnerable children.


----------



## Shug750S

Can't wait until Friday.

This chain is nearly as bad as when the Jocks wanted out of the U.K...


----------



## bobclive22

> The organisation also cites a paper published by the Bank of England which found mass migration had driven down wages of millions of Britons.


So you condone this then, I am at the top of the pile, you are at the bottom and your bloody well going to stay there vote remain.


----------



## les

Shug750S said:


> Can't wait until Friday.
> 
> This chain is nearly as bad as when the Jocks wanted out of the U.K...


 and how many of them are regretting their decision to vote remain in the UK now as the mood soon changed after.


----------



## Shug750S

les said:


> Shug750S said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can't wait until Friday.
> 
> This chain is nearly as bad as when the Jocks wanted out of the U.K...
> 
> 
> 
> and how many of them are regretting their decision to vote remain in the UK now as the mood soon changed after.
Click to expand...

Having been up there a lot recently, not many.

The people I've chatted with indicated they didn't want to leave the UK as were worried about being a small fish in a big pond, and since the oil price collapsed are glad they are still in.

Most also thought that the rise of the SNP was a protest to Westminster, and gives then a better chance to influence Scottish issues whilst staying in the UK.

Bit like one of the arguments for staying in the EU really. Surely it's better to try and change things from the inside than shouting from outside and being ignored.


----------



## les

Shug750S said:


> les said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shug750S said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can't wait until Friday.
> 
> This chain is nearly as bad as when the Jocks wanted out of the U.K...
> 
> 
> 
> Bit like one of the arguments for staying in the EU really. Surely it's better to try and change things from the inside than shouting from outside and being ignored.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Not at all a bit like as we have had years to make the big changes and failed despite the empty promises and it's been revealed today Cameron knew he had no chance to limit immigration into the UK for instance.

The Scotland case is a different kettle of fish altogether and they seem to swap and change their minds almost weekly as to what they really want. I seem to recall polls suggesting a lot regretting their initial decision to remain not long after the referendum in 2014. If we did leave the EU it would create even more confusion but may well trigger another Scottish referendum to stay or leave the UK and go it alone with no guarantee they would be allowed to join the EU on their own.


----------



## bobclive22

> Given the statistics, it's safe to assume that there are young children in your area being preyed upon by peadophiles (possibly good old Catholic ones, not those horrible Muslim ones though, if that makes a difference) - so, what are you doing to help them Bob? I'm going to be pretty disgusted with you if the answer is 'nothing'.


As a 75 year old pensioner there`s not much I can do, she was a high flying politician who if she chose could have supported those other politicians that actually did ensure these rapists were brought to justice. Her constituency was only 18 miles away.



> not those horrible Muslim ones though


,

After the sentencing, *Kris Hopkins, Conservative MP* for Keighley spoke out against the 'sick model of organised groups of Asian men grooming young white girls', but said there are more women out there who need justice.

*He said the sentenced were vindication for controversial comments he made during a parliamentary debate in 2012, claiming that organised groups of Asian men were 'going around raping white girls'. *

*However, he claims that even today he has been 'lambasted' for even mentioning that the men are Asian when talking about the sentences.*

He told MailOnline: 'There are sexual offenders who are white, but the fact is *this particular model is all Asian men and all the victims were white.*

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z4CEZQn2Jd


----------



## jamman

Alf Garnett is alive and well and living on the internet/TT Forum.


----------



## Shug750S

les said:


> Not at all a bit like as we have had years to make the big changes and failed despite the empty promises and it's been revealed today Cameron knew he had no chance to limit immigration into the UK for instance.
> 
> The Scotland case is a different kettle of fish altogether and they seem to swap and change their minds almost weekly as to what they really want. I seem to recall polls suggesting a lot regretting their initial decision to remain not long after the referendum in 2014. If we did leave the EU it would create even more confusion but may well trigger another Scottish referendum to stay or leave the UK and go it alone with no guarantee they would be allowed to join the EU on their own.


What's up, didn't you like the answer to your original question? So you then make a statement saying it's different.

You asked I answered, but obviously not the answer you wanted...

How will you react if vote on Thursday doesn't go the way you want?


----------



## les

Shug750S said:


> les said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not at all a bit like as we have had years to make the big changes and failed despite the empty promises and it's been revealed today Cameron knew he had no chance to limit immigration into the UK for instance.
> 
> The Scotland case is a different kettle of fish altogether and they seem to swap and change their minds almost weekly as to what they really want. I seem to recall polls suggesting a lot regretting their initial decision to remain not long after the referendum in 2014. If we did leave the EU it would create even more confusion but may well trigger another Scottish referendum to stay or leave the UK and go it alone with no guarantee they would be allowed to join the EU on their own.
> 
> 
> 
> What's up, didn't you like the answer to your original question? So you then make a statement saying it's different.
> 
> You asked I answered, but obviously not the answer you wanted...
> 
> How will you react if vote on Thursday doesn't go the way you want?
Click to expand...

You talked to a few people in Scotland hardly representative of the nation.

I will go with it as I have stated before but what will you do? Perhaps think of going to Germany or France to get away from what's left of UK democracy? I will still be here of course as I have been for the last 66 years paying my taxes via PAYE not avoiding them while the country slides into the United States of Europe and as the noose tightens. I would forget going to Spain and Greece, however as you will most likely get little joy there. France not being far behind them as their debt also spirals out of control as in many of the EU countries. I am not voting for me as my time is probably limited but for my grandchildren's and the countries future to get out of this corrupt EU. I also don't want my country becoming extreme me right wing as the far right in many EU countries appear to be heading.


----------



## les

les said:


> Shug750S said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> les said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not at all a bit like as we have had years to make the big changes and failed despite the empty promises and it's been revealed today Cameron knew he had no chance to limit immigration into the UK for instance.
> 
> The Scotland case is a different kettle of fish altogether and they seem to swap and change their minds almost weekly as to what they really want. I seem to recall polls suggesting a lot regretting their initial decision to remain not long after the referendum in 2014. If we did leave the EU it would create even more confusion but may well trigger another Scottish referendum to stay or leave the UK and go it alone with no guarantee they would be allowed to join the EU on their own.
> 
> 
> 
> What's up, didn't you like the answer to your original question? So you then make a statement saying it's different.
> 
> You asked I answered, but obviously not the answer you wanted...
> 
> How will you react if vote on Thursday doesn't go the way you want?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You talked to a few people in Scotland hardly representative of the nation.
> 
> I will go with it as I have stated before but what will you do? Perhaps think of going to Germany or France to get away from what's left of UK democracy? I will still be here of course as I have been for the last 66 years paying my taxes via PAYE not avoiding them while the country slides into the United States of Europe and as the noose tightens. I would forget going to Spain and Greece, however as you will most likely get little joy there. France not being far behind them as their debt also spirals out of control as in many of the EU countries. I am not voting for me as my time is probably limited but for my grandchildren's and the countries future to get out of this corrupt EU. I also don't want my country becoming extreme me right wing as the far right in many EU countries appear to be heading.
Click to expand...

I phoned the doctors this morning and I have to wait 2 weeks for a blood test that wasn't the case a few months back. God help us when winter arrives. I used to get them within 2 days.


----------



## bobclive22

> Alf Garnett is alive and well and living on the internet/TT Forum.


So Shirebrook, sorry little Romania, is the green and pleasant land you would like your children to live in is it, I hope it soon arrives in an area close to you.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-de ... e-35604776

http://www.chad.co.uk/news/local/exclus ... -1-7885156


----------



## Shug750S

les said:


> Shug750S said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> les said:
> 
> 
> 
> You talked to a few people in Scotland hardly representative of the nation.
> 
> I will go with it as I have stated before but what will you do? Perhaps think of going to Germany or France to get away from what's left of UK democracy? I will still be here of course as I have been for the last 66 years paying my taxes via PAYE not avoiding them while the country slides into the United States of Europe and as the noose tightens. I would forget going to Spain and Greece, however as you will most likely get little joy there. France not being far behind them as their debt also spirals out of control as in many of the EU countries. I am not voting for me as my time is probably limited but for my grandchildren's and the countries future to get out of this corrupt EU. I also don't want my country becoming extreme me right wing as the far right in many EU countries appear to be heading.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

You asked a question, I answered truthfully based on the people I had met and talked to. Apols, next time I'll make sure I carry out a mori type poll so the stats are okay. I can only answer based on what I was told.

I will go with whatever the referendum and the government end up with, after a 2 year minimum wait if we leave, or stays as now if we stay.

I haven't paid taxes for as long as you, only been working and paying taxes for the last 38 years, and I have paid a lot (seriously a lot, especially when the highest rate was 50% not 45 as now) of tax in the past 15 years every year as PAYE. I have not dodged any tax, and not claimed a penny since I left school. I do however fear the market crash that could well happen if we leave, and the longer term effect on my pension fund.

As you have guessed I'm hoping for an remain vote...

Tin hat on, head down, waiting for new rant as reply


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> Alf Garnett is alive and well and living on the internet/TT Forum.
> 
> 
> 
> So Shirebrook, sorry little Romania, is the green and pleasant land you would like your children to live in is it, I hope it soon arrives in an area close to you.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-de ... e-35604776
> 
> http://www.chad.co.uk/news/local/exclus ... -1-7885156
Click to expand...

Given the choice between a load of Romanians or you arriving soon in an area near me, I'd be going out to buy a Romanian-English phrase book with a spring in my step.


----------



## cheechy

Shug750S said:


> les said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shug750S said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can't wait until Friday.
> 
> This chain is nearly as bad as when the Jocks wanted out of the U.K...
> 
> 
> 
> and how many of them are regretting their decision to vote remain in the UK now as the mood soon changed after.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Having been up there a lot recently, not many.
> 
> The people I've chatted with indicated they didn't want to leave the UK as were worried about being a small fish in a big pond, and since the oil price collapsed are glad they are still in.
> 
> Most also thought that the rise of the SNP was a protest to Westminster, and gives then a better chance to influence Scottish issues whilst staying in the UK.
> 
> Bit like one of the arguments for staying in the EU really. Surely it's better to try and change things from the inside than shouting from outside and being ignored.
Click to expand...

Yup and I voted in partly due to being told the road to Europe would be slammed in our face. The irony of this whole debate does grate massively.

If on Friday we are out then I'd have to think being in uk was worth it anymore tbh....not just about the fact we'd just flushed our futures down the drain but also the direction the uk seems to be going in just now.

People getting whipped into frenzy in a political atmosphere also reminiscent of the 1930s, with guys like farage being given a platform.

Btw people on here do realise this is a uk tt forum right? There are people who have been on here for years that happen not to live in England...


----------



## cheechy

les said:


> Shug750S said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> les said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not at all a bit like as we have had years to make the big changes and failed despite the empty promises and it's been revealed today Cameron knew he had no chance to limit immigration into the UK for instance.
> 
> The Scotland case is a different kettle of fish altogether and they seem to swap and change their minds almost weekly as to what they really want. I seem to recall polls suggesting a lot regretting their initial decision to remain not long after the referendum in 2014. If we did leave the EU it would create even more confusion but may well trigger another Scottish referendum to stay or leave the UK and go it alone with no guarantee they would be allowed to join the EU on their own.
> 
> 
> 
> What's up, didn't you like the answer to your original question? So you then make a statement saying it's different.
> 
> You asked I answered, but obviously not the answer you wanted...
> 
> How will you react if vote on Thursday doesn't go the way you want?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You talked to a few people in Scotland hardly representative of the nation.
> 
> I will go with it as I have stated before but what will you do? Perhaps think of going to Germany or France to get away from what's left of UK democracy? I will still be here of course as I have been for the last 66 years paying my taxes via PAYE not avoiding them while the country slides into the United States of Europe and as the noose tightens. I would forget going to Spain and Greece, however as you will most likely get little joy there. France not being far behind them as their debt also spirals out of control as in many of the EU countries. I am not voting for me as my time is probably limited but for my grandchildren's and the countries future to get out of this corrupt EU. I also don't want my country becoming extreme me right wing as the far right in many EU countries appear to be heading.
Click to expand...

No you don't need to go into Europe for extreme right wing policies it's alive and well in the uk.


----------



## cheechy

les said:


> I phoned the doctors this morning and I have to wait 2 weeks for a blood test that wasn't the case a few months back. God help us when winter arrives. I used to get them within 2 days.


The biggest impact on NHS is an aging population. Look it up?


----------



## les

cheechy said:


> No you don't need to go into Europe for extreme right wing policies it's alive and well in the uk.


It's alive and well in just about every country in the world and It was alive and well in the UK in 1939 With Mosley and his fascist group. The big difference is the rise of the far right in some of the EU countries as opposed to the UK in which Nazi's are still very much a small party.


----------



## les

cheechy said:


> les said:
> 
> 
> 
> I phoned the doctors this morning and I have to wait 2 weeks for a blood test that wasn't the case a few months back. God help us when winter arrives. I used to get them within 2 days.
> 
> 
> 
> The biggest impact on NHS is an aging population. Look it up?
Click to expand...

Am sorry for growing old in that case lol. I was simply stating a fact and the fact is it's taking longer and longer to get an appointment at my doctors. Much of that is too little investment in our NHS. I wasn't pointing the finger at any particular group. I also know when I go the doctors what I see and hear and a swell in the population is adding to the burden as it is with schools. So what are we to do about it?


----------



## John-H

Spandex said:


> bobclive22 said:
> 
> 
> 
> NO, she had a choice and chose to ignore the young people in need that lived on her doorstep for those thousands of miles away, charity begins at home.
> 
> 
> 
> I see. What do you believe she should have done?
> 
> Given the statistics, it's safe to assume that there are young children in your area being preyed upon by peadophiles (possibly good old Catholic ones, not those horrible Muslim ones though, if that makes a difference) - so, what are you doing to help them Bob? I'm going to be pretty disgusted with you if the answer is 'nothing'.
Click to expand...

Quite disturbed by your comments Bob. I think a lack of empathy may be a problem here. To not realise what other people are thinking, only concerned with your own thoughts despite objections being raised to them and highlighted. Perhaps regret on reflection? You seem to be dredging the net for the worst comments. You do realise if you trawl deep you'll pick up nut jobs - do you really wish to be associated?



les said:


> Britain safer in EU. You couldn't make it up....could you?
> 
> Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant. ...
> ...
> Long list of examples of business decisions entirely unconnected with the UK being un the EU or not...
> 
> ... it kept going ...
> 
> 
> ...





Spandex said:


> It's a good list. I have a couple of questions though, which I'm sure you can answer:
> 
> 1. Which of the things on the list could we have prevented if we'd not been an EU member?
> 
> 2. If we leave the EU, will foreign owned companies:
> a) come flocking back because they miss us?
> b) move even more of their factories into the EU?


Les, Spandex is completely correct - those examples of business moves - you have no way of proving they wouldn't have happened anyway and no way of proving the opposite would happen if we were not in the EU. Your list is completely pointless and proves nothing :roll:

You still have not answered my question to you: - WHAT IS YOUR PLAN TO SAFEGUARD THE ECONOMY FROM THE EFFECTS OF AN EU EXIT? *Is the plan to re-join the single market or not?* Do you have an answer yet? Not so far it seems - complete silence on that one. How are you going to maintain the current level of trade without the single market? Magic up some instant trade deals? How come all the other countries in the world - all our allies say we should stay in the EU? What's your plan? - silence on that one is not good enough in order to persuade. A slogan is not a detailed plan and neither is a long list of irrelevant tittle tattle.

I also asked a while back if you have ever voted for your MEP? You keep peddling the myth of a lack of democracy - but have you ever engaged?



cheechy said:


> les said:
> 
> 
> 
> I phoned the doctors this morning and I have to wait 2 weeks for a blood test that wasn't the case a few months back. God help us when winter arrives. I used to get them within 2 days.
> 
> 
> 
> The biggest impact on NHS is an aging population. Look it up?
Click to expand...

Yes, Les, you are really scraping the barrel with that one! :lol:



Spandex said:


> bobclive22 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jamman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Alf Garnett is alive and well and living on the internet/TT Forum.
> 
> 
> 
> So Shirebrook, sorry little Romania, is the green and pleasant land you would like your children to live in is it, I hope it soon arrives in an area close to you.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-de ... e-35604776
> 
> http://www.chad.co.uk/news/local/exclus ... -1-7885156
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Given the choice between a load of Romanians or you arriving soon in an area near me, I'd be going out to buy a Romanian-English phrase book with a spring in my step.
Click to expand...

 :lol: Les, Bob, if you have children and grand children - have you asked them what they actually want rather than deciding for them? They are going to be here a lot longer - what do they think?

Anyway, I just watched the EU debate from Wembley on the BBC. Quite a balanced debate I thought and clearly one of two halves. Some interesting points:

The leave side have apparenty accepted a 600k donation from an ex BNP member and when confronted became very defensive and said they would look into it.

The myth about low EU growth only being better than Iceland - actually not true as it's now greater than the USA.

A claim was made by leave that migrants have driven down wages and stopping them coming in would therefore increase wages. Well, if labour costs rise then so do prices so not good for consumers and exports - everything has an effect. They couldn't give a figure for migrants with Brexit either and with the points based Australia system they were advocating, would increase the portion of non EU migrants. The point was made that migration actually has a net gain for the economy anyway.

The point was also made that trashing the economy would be likely to reduce net immigration but is that such a good idea?

Turkey raised - that Vote leave had produced a pamphlet looking like a Dad's Army cartoon theme invasion of Blighty by Turkey, Syria and Iraq - not project fear but project hate.

We are in a low inflation, low unemployment UK right now - why risk change?

A businessman saying he's just signed a deal exporting to another EU country but with a clause saying if there's a Brexit vote then the deal is off.

The Britain I know doesn't walk away from its friends - it works with them.

Just some comments I picked up.

I still think that in or out - the future is hard to predict and the only certainty is the stable situation we have now. Given that the arguments are split and the decision is on a knife edge, a decision to change now would be based on uncertainty and basically a gamble. Far better to wait until things go good or bad in the future - a few years down the line. If things become obviously bad in the EU there will be a public and party call for en exit and something therefore the majority would be agreed on to change - which we would have the right to do at any time. Changing now (just because of the Tory party internal squabble) makes no sense at all if there's no good proper agreed reason and only uncertainty. We'd only risk all we have :roll:


----------



## Spandex

John-H said:


> I also asked a while back if you have ever voted for your MEP? You keep peddling the myth of a lack of democracy - but have you ever engaged?


An interesting stat I saw when someone was talking about democracy in the EU - the only reason anyone could claim it was undemocratic is that UKIP are massively over-represented in the European Parliament (especially considering the number of votes they received) yet they only turn up to around 65% of the votes. That's the lowest attendance of any party from any country by a fair margin.

So when UKIP tell you that the EU is undemocratic, it's because they are trying to make it that way by not doing the job they were elected to do. And when they say we get forced to do things by the EU against our will, it's because they can't be bothered to turn up to express our will.


----------



## V6RUL

If this was a UK vote to join the EU in the present climate..would you vote yes ?
Steve


----------



## Spandex

V6RUL said:


> If this was a UK vote to join the EU in the present climate..would you vote yes ?
> Steve


I, and other people have answered that before. Voting to join the EU now would mean voting to join the Euro and Schengen and other things that we've managed to opt out of in the past. So the fact that someone wouldn't vote to join the EU isn't really relevant to a decision whether or not to leave our current, very privileged position in the EU.

This is the whole point. Being a member of the EU is a compromise. You give certain things and you receive certain things. Some of them more tangible than others. The leave campaign try to appeal to peoples selfish, greedy side by highlighting only the things we give, then telling us it's win-win outside the EU. You can have all the things we currently have, but with none of the compromise. Sounds amazing. A bit too amazing actually. This, and the fact that they aren't willing to back up these claims with anything approaching a real plan should be enough to tell people that it's nothing more than wishful thinking.

If a friend came to you with a money making scheme that sounded too good to be true, you'd be pretty sceptical. If they then refused to give you any details of how the scheme would actually work, and instead just kept telling you how they could spend all their new-found money, you'd walk away laughing.


----------



## bobclive22

> :lol: Les, Bob, if you have children and grand children - have you asked them what they actually want rather than deciding for them? They are going to be here a lot longer - what do they think?


*Ask the immigrants.*

http://www.nottinghampost.com/nottingha ... /story.htm

Do a little research on White Helmets, watch the video, all may not be what it seems.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/who-are-sy ... es/5532119


----------



## les

Without going through Johns whole post as being retired i don't have the time nor inclination to spend the rest of the morning on here when the vote is tomorrow.
The point made was these companies moved out of the UK with the aid of grants from the EU, you seemed to have ignored that. In other words the money we put into the EU helped the EU to provide assistance to these companies relocating outside the UK.

Regarding my grandchildren, as a grandfather I have some moral obligation to them, just like their parents I will help them in whatever way I can. Given that not one is old enough to rational never mind vote (oldest is 3.1/2 years old) they are in no way able to think much for themselves. According to Cameron and the EU they will not be allowed to have a vote to remain or leave ever again. This means we will be locked and blocked by the EU. Now that in itself is sinister and worrying and yes another indication of the control we have lost and continue to loose in the EU and no doubt more of the same to come.


----------



## jamman

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-e ... m-36579597

Think this pretty much explains the two camps and also why you can't seem to get a straight answer out of the "leave" brigade, it's not that they don't want to they just haven't got the brainpower.

Of course I'm joking except in Mr Garnetts case because he does seem a "tad" prejudiced.


----------



## k9l3

I vote leave.

Most of the goverment and big business want to stay as it makes easy relations for them and cheaper to do business.

Personally i maybe nuts but i would not be suprised if the vote ends up fixed to favour stay.


----------



## John-H

Les, you managed to make that big list of companies in your retirement time.

I think you are missing the point about them though - if a company wants to set up in an EU country and there's an EU grant to help it, then what has that got to do with whether the UK is in the EU or not? Nothing.

The idea of the grant is to create employment and improve the situation in the EU country which equally could be the UK. Do you not think that's a communal good?

If the company had come from the USA would you have an objection then? I presume not.

If the UK was not in the EU a UK company could still have applied to set up in the EU.

So the list of companies moving to the EU is not an argument for the UK staying or leaving the EU. Your only point seems to be against the EU helping deprived areas with a grant.

I take your point about your grandchildren being too young to vote. What about their parents - your children? What do they think?

My question was evaded by Bob too who is too busy trawling the depths of the internet to see if can reach the bottom.

You haven't answered my other questions too I see. What's the plan? Single market? Or avoid the question again? Did you vote for your MEP?


----------



## Shug750S

jamman said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36579597
> 
> Think this pretty much explains the two camps and also why you can't seem to get a straight answer out of the "leave" brigade, it's not that they don't want to they just haven't got the brainpower.
> 
> Of course I'm joking except in Mr Garnetts case because he does seem a "tad" prejudiced.


Good spot on that BBC article. I hope they interviewed enough people or it will soon be discredited as not representative by the leave camp.

Note: I didn't say elderly and not so well educated as the article indicates that not me.


----------



## bobclive22

State Dept Press Briefing 27 April, the white helmets, Jo cox charity.






Former Libdem politician Lembit Opik, is Jo Cox's 'White Helmets' Actually Al-Qaeda?






http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2016 ... ures-from/


----------



## jamman

Bob this isn't a thread about Jo Cox so please stop posting this nasty rubbish it's doing you no favours, I'm all for free speech but your posts are not sitting well with me.

Here's an idea why not post it on the Jo Cox thread if you must ?

Even better why not start your own thread I got a title

"Mean Bobs bigoted ignorant small minded closet racist ramblings"


----------



## bobclive22

> Bob this isn't a thread about Jo Cox so please stop posting this *nasty rubbish* it's doing you no favours, I'm all for free speech but your posts are not sitting well with me.


This is not *nasty rubbish* or a conspiracy theory, as is shown in the 2 video`s, the White helmets may not be a charity at all, that first video was a *question and answer session in the US state department*, that can`t be rigged.What I am trying to show is you cannot trust what your leaders and the power brokers tell you, in fact you should do the exact opposite and question every utterance. This whole referendum charade was set in motion by Cameron to silence Ukip as he thought the conservatives would loose votes over immigration, do you think for one moment that the British public would have got this referendum had it not been for *Nigel Farage*, do you think for one moment Cameron would have given the British electorate this referendum he had known the vote would be so close. The world banking crisis should have enlightened you to the fact that the power brokers care nothing for the well being of you or your family. Why do you think the rich are getting richer and you poorer.

Why all the criticism over this *breaking point add *which is factual and *NO criticism over this remain operation black add which is blatantly racist and liable to split society.*


----------



## les

John-H said:


> Les, you managed to make that big list of companies in your retirement time.
> 
> I think you are missing the point about them though - if a company wants to set up in an EU country and there's an EU grant to help it, then what has that got to do with whether the UK is in the EU or not? Nothing.
> 
> The idea of the grant is to create employment and improve the situation in the EU country which equally could be the UK. Do you not think that's a communal good?
> 
> If the company had come from the USA would you have an objection then? I presume not.
> 
> If the UK was not in the EU a UK company could still have applied to set up in the EU.
> 
> So the list of companies moving to the EU is not an argument for the UK staying or leaving the EU. Your only point seems to be against the EU helping deprived areas with a grant.
> 
> I take your point about your grandchildren being too young to vote. What about their parents - your children? What do they think?
> 
> My question was evaded by Bob too who is too busy trawling the depths of the internet to see if can reach the bottom.
> 
> You haven't answered my other questions too I see. What's the plan? Single market? Or avoid the question again? Did you vote for your MEP?


John John John how many times. The EU gave money to these companies to leave the UK you know jobs in the UK gone to another country outside the Uk taking the jobs with them and in doing so gave these companies money to which the UK contributes. Now, what if the same happened to your company and your company moved to say Poland I guess you would be happy that UK tax money (yours) was being used to help the move. Of course you could always travel to Poland to do the same job if they would have you and at what salary who knows? Then if they did match your salary for how long? BTW unemployment has come down your right many times by changing the ball game so the figures are stacked. EG now if you work 5 hours a week or whatever your not unemployed anymore, there you go unemployment down. Roll on more none contract hours for the low paid. Nothing to do with the EU of course they didn't invent zero hours.

My children are old enough to make up their own minds, they know my views I don't keep them secret. Next thing people will be suggesting you shouldn't have a vote unless you have an above average IQ. :roll:


----------



## bobclive22

> The biggest impact on NHS is an aging population. Look it up?


So another 3 1/2 million people living in the UK in 2015 from other EU counties makes no difference then.


----------



## John-H

Les, I'm quite happy that EU funding helps poor areas as it does here in this country too. You seem to have a problem with this public good.

I don't suppose you will have a problem if we are out of the EU and UK companies continue to be attracted by EU grants to mainland Europe (it making no difference if the UK is in or out like I said) and other companies are not attracted into the UK because there is no possibility of EU funding anymore?

You can sit there counting your modest EU contribution saving whilst watching billions leave the UK economy because of your LACK OF ANY ECONOMIC PLAN!

Eventually we'll all be poor and nobody will want to come here. Well done Les :lol:



bobclive22 said:


> The biggest impact on NHS is an aging population. Look it up?
> 
> 
> 
> So another 3 1/2 million people living in the UK in 2015 from other EU counties makes no difference then.
Click to expand...

I believe the NHS is highly dependent on them and they make a great contribution to the UK economy. Under present rules of they don't get gainful employment and make a contribution they can't stay and have to return.


----------



## A3DFU

I'm breaking my promise to myself now just to say, may the correct result ensue tomorrow 

[I've read each and every post on this thread and I have my very strong view on this matter. I've kept quiet though because I'm not allowed to vote having kept my German nationality since I moved to England some 31 years ago.]

Good luck to the country I've chosen to call 'home'


----------



## cheechy

bobclive22 said:


> The biggest impact on NHS is an aging population. Look it up?
> 
> 
> 
> So another 3 1/2 million people living in the UK in 2015 from other EU counties makes no difference then.
Click to expand...

What about the million plus Brits living in Spain ?

The numbers themselves are irrelevant tbh in uk. What makes you think they aren't paying their way? If they gave a job they pay their taxes like everyone else.

I'd expect access to a service I'd paid for don't know about you.


----------



## Spandex

Fighting misinformation with misinformation....


----------



## cheechy

Tbh no idea why I keep replying to Bob.

It's obvious he thinks the worst of immigrants and whilst I hate to say it it's like having a chat to my dad. He can't get past the immigrant thing and won't see any positive contribution they make. For me it illustrates an age of less tolerance.

Anyhow good luck and hopefully may common sense prevail tomorrow. In the absence of any doubt that means vote remain.


----------



## Spandex




----------



## cheechy

:lol:

This is SO true it's almost not funny....almost :mrgreen:


----------



## jamman

cheechy said:


> Tbh no idea why I keep replying to Bob.
> 
> It's obvious he thinks the worst of immigrants and whilst I hate to say it it's like having a chat to my dad. He can't get past the immigrant thing and won't see any positive contribution they make. For me it illustrates an age of less tolerance.
> 
> Anyhow good luck and hopefully may common sense prevail tomorrow. In the absence of any doubt that means vote remain.


It's called racism plain and simple the sad thing being I don't think Bob even relalises it such is his ignorance of the world we live in


----------



## Trouble4

good luck with the vote today...........


----------



## bobclive22

> What about the million plus Brits living in Spain ?


They bought their properties with their own hard earn`t cash, and they *bloody well don`t claim benefit.*

Well Cameron called this referendum to get rid of Ukip, talk about shooting yourself in the foot, I felt this comment from the Independent worth repeating.

*It is going to be remain on the 24th* and will be *the coming of age for UKIP* ... With 2020 giving us a coalition government with UKIP holding the power whilst supporting the Conservatives .... Stand by for a re-run in 2020 of this whole thing ........ You could just vote LEAVE and put it to bed .....

Eight miles from Jo Cox's constituency 25 men have been sentenced for child prostitution. *She saved Syrian children but eight miles away a gang of Muslim men were abusing our own.* *This only made the regional pages of the BBC news.
*
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -back.html


----------



## cheechy

bobclive22 said:


> What about the million plus Brits living in Spain ?
> 
> 
> 
> They bought their properties with their own hard earn`t cash, and they *bloody well don`t claim benefit.*
> 
> Well Cameron called this referendum to get rid of Ukip, talk about shooting yourself in the foot, I felt this comment from the Independent worth repeating.
> 
> *It is going to be remain on the 24th* and will be *the coming of age for UKIP* ... With 2020 giving us a coalition government with UKIP holding the power whilst supporting the Conservatives .... Stand by for a re-run in 2020 of this whole thing ........ You could just vote LEAVE and put it to bed .....
> 
> Eight miles from Jo Cox's constituency 25 men have been sentenced for child prostitution. *She saved Syrian children but eight miles away a gang of Muslim men were abusing our own.* *This only made the regional pages of the BBC news.
> *
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -back.html
Click to expand...

Please...someone...take this guys internet away from him.


----------



## jamman

I agree so much anger and bitterness.

As my mum would say stay clear he's a nasty piece of work.

Very sad to be eaten up like that.


----------



## Spandex

It's probably too late for a lot of people, but if you've not voted yet and you're undecided, please bear this one thing in mind:

This is not a referendum on whether or not to leave the EU. It's a referendum on whether or not to leave the EU *now*.

It's a small difference, but an important one. If you're concerned about things that might happen in the future - possibly things that the Leave campaign have put forward as certainties - this isn't a good enough reason to jump off the train now, on the off-chance that the bad things happen. We can leave the EU at any time in the future if we decide it has changed from what we want it to be, but if we leave, we won't be able to go back to how we are now if we change our minds.

So if you're not sure, the only logical thing to do is vote Remain, because that's the only vote that doesn't put you in an irreversible situation.


----------



## John-H

Spandex said:


> It's probably too late for a lot of people, but if you've not voted yet and you're undecided, please bear this one thing in mind:
> 
> This is not a referendum on whether or not to leave the EU. It's a referendum on whether or not to leave the EU *now*.
> 
> It's a small difference, but an important one. If you're concerned about things that might happen in the future - possibly things that the Leave campaign have put forward as certainties - this isn't a good enough reason to jump off the train now, on the off-chance that the bad things happen. We can leave the EU at any time in the future if we decide it has changed from what we want it to be, but if we leave, we won't be able to go back to how we are now if we change our minds.
> 
> So if you're not sure, the only logical thing to do is vote Remain, because that's the only vote that doesn't put you in an irreversible situation.


+1 . The logic of what you've just said is irrefutable.

I'd add that this is NOT the time for a protest vote - that may damage us all with no second chance to put it right. Leave that for the general election for the numpties that have put us all through this!


----------



## bobclive22

> Tbh no idea why I keep replying to Bob.
> 
> It's obvious he thinks the worst of immigrants and whilst I hate to say it it's like having a chat to my dad. He can't get past the immigrant thing and won't see any positive contribution they make. For me it illustrates an age of less tolerance.


*You don`t get it do you,*

*I am pro immigration*, I have worked along side many races for many years and NEVER had an issue.
I gave you a link to the Nottingham Post article where Asian taxi drivers were voting exit, in your world a white-man living in his own country (ENGLAND) is a racist if he does not agree with MASS immigration yet it is politically correct for an Asian to have the exact same opinion, I presume you are white.

I am *NOT* against immigration *I am against MASS immigration with NO control over who comes in.*
You remainers quote the health service and the doctors and nurses from the EU that work there, *stay or leave those SKILLED workers and any other skilled workers from the EU that want enter the UK will be welcome,* it`s the *unskilled labour *that is used by the likes of Sports Direct to *force the level of wages DOWN* that I and every other person wishing to leave is against, *as it appears is your father*.

The other issue is sovereignty, a large majority of our politicians have their noses in the troff, you can at least get rid of them, probably for another lot nearly as bad but with the possibility of some improvement. With the EU it`s a *vastly larger troff* and there is* NO *chance of getting rid of those scroungers.

Here is a post from a 17 year old, BBC Leicester, Asian Life, he appears to possess a little bit more common than yourself.

Anonymous age 17

Referring to the History of Leicester I think that the Labour Government are tearing this country apart with their far too politically correct agendas. *With Labour you are deemed racist whatever you say *and all the main three political party's are betraying this country. I am for immigration and think that it can be a prosperous thing for this country but only if we control the numbers we let into this country. *I think that when in an historic English town such as Leicester our own British culture and British people and religions start to become the minority and not the majority we have to start to wake up and realise that we are just letting too many people into Britain.* It's not racist to worry about immigration and asylum; however we have to start to take care of our people. We are a small island we can't act as safe haven for the rest of the world. It's within the government and local council's responsibility to defend and protect our culture after all this is Britain and not Asia.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/leicester/content/ ... ture.shtml

As for The White Helmets, the leader of this group is Banned in the US as a suspected terrorist, do you believe everything you read in the press.


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> As for The White Helmets, the leader of this group is Banned in the US as a suspected terrorist, do you believe everything you read in the press.


It's odd that you know why he's banned in the US, because the US government haven't commented on why his visa was suddenly cancelled. Perhaps you received an email from the head of homeland security? Did the email also tell you that you'd inherited $1,000,000 and you only had to send them some money to enable them to release the funds?

Ironically, Raed Saleh (leader of the humanitarian terrorists) only found out himself when he arrived in Washington to receive a humanitarian award. Maybe you should send all your special Internet research to the organisers of that award.


----------



## jamman

Well the majority of people have voted for change and you have to respect that.

I think they have made a massive mistake but time will tell, I hope I'm wrong.


----------



## John-H

I'm again reminded of that moment from "I CLAVDIVS" : "Let all the poisons that lurk in the mud hatch out"

I don't wish it to happen but I fear the consequences of this. Will this turn out to be what people thought they were voting for?

In the past hours the pound has dropped over twice as much as it ever has in one day, in 50 years. That's just the initial reaction. There will be far greater changes with London no longer being the financial centre of trade for Europe. Investment decisions put on hold are now being abandoned apparently.

Scotland now has a clear mandate for another referendum on independence and as we are heating now, Northern Ireland which also voted to remain is considering where it's borders lie.

We are very much a dis-United Kingdom.


----------



## Spaceman10

Well done every body who voted out 
I am one happy English man 
Time for change is here 
Well done guys

Phil


----------



## leopard

+ 1

The politicians are squirming :mrgreen:


----------



## fut1a

I voted for out quite early with a postal vote but I regretted it afterwards.

Golden Balls and Posh Spice wanted us to stay in but it was too late I had already voted.


----------



## Shug750S

jamman said:


> Well the majority of people have voted for change and you have to respect that.
> 
> I think they have made a massive mistake but time will tell, I hope I'm wrong.


+1

The only possible upside is that other countries start to question the EU and leave and the whole experiment falls apart.

Could well be that we take a massive hit in short medium term, and then Sweden and other start to talk about leaving. The cost for Germany increases and their people get twitchy.

Just hope stocks etc improve before I retire.


----------



## Spandex

John-H said:


> Will this turn out to be what people thought they were voting for?


Only a few hours in and the back tracking on promises has already begun:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06 ... a-mistake/


leopard said:


> The politicians are squirming :mrgreen:


Unfortunately, we'll probably see as much squirming from the leave politicians as from remain. They now have to spend years trying to blame everyone else for things not being so peachy outside the EU as they claimed.


----------



## NickG

Who needed the last 3 years of stability and growth anyway?! :x

Not a great fan of coming to work to be a part of our relatively new and growing construction business wondering if the future is going to be as bleak as it was between 2009 and 2013 with orders hard to find and the constant threat of an empty orderbook looming over you. Cheers Leave campaign, great job.


----------



## leopard

Dave has just announced he's stepping down....

Where's Les... :lol:


----------



## bobclive22

> It's odd that you know why he's banned in the US, because the US government haven't commented on why his visa was suddenly cancelled.


* It`s not me asking the questions in the video, the US give $27 million to the group and ban the leader*, I think you have the 3 monkeys syndrome, by the way, it appears according to you there are over 17 million racist people like myself in the UK that have questioned mass immigration. Have a talk with your dad he will put you right.

In the end common sense prevailed and we can now sail our own course.
The pounds dropped but it`s only profit taking.


----------



## NickG

It's wrong to say anyone who voted exit is a racist, but it's factually accurate that a large proportion of exit voters done so on grounds of deceptive information regarding immigration, racism has played a part in this vote.


----------



## cheechy

As expected the out vote has already cost me and my family ££ thousands as the market had already built in a remain vote - as it turned out incorrectly.

Now we're in for years of instability which means that short to medium term we'll all be worse off.

Very surreal morning knowing a lot of people have registered a protest vote against the government - and knowing now that its likely that Scotland will leave the uk.

What a screw up


----------



## Dash

Congratulations guys, you've managed to make the "evil" politicians feel uncomfortable. I hope your happiness prevails through the devaluation of the pound, the removal of the AAA status of the UK and the sharp increase in living costs as imports escalate.

It is not a proud day to be British. I am deeply saddened by the events. We've seen fear and irrational propaganda take hold in countries before, sometimes this has resulted in the spiral to war - we can but hope that this doesn't happen this time.


----------



## barry_m2

Dash said:


> It is not a proud day to be British. I am deeply saddened by the events. We've seen fear and irrational propaganda take hold in countries before, sometimes this has resulted in the spiral to war - we can but hope that this doesn't happen this time.


Well it would appear for every 1 person with that view, there is 1 and a bit people that feel proud. There are positives and negatives on each side, being miserable and bitter about it is not going to get us anywhere. The country now need to change, and make it a change for the good.


----------



## leopard

barry_m2 said:


> Dash said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is not a proud day to be British. I am deeply saddened by the events. We've seen fear and irrational propaganda take hold in countries before, sometimes this has resulted in the spiral to war - we can but hope that this doesn't happen this time.
> 
> 
> 
> Well it would appear for every 1 person with that view, there is 1 and a bit people that feel proud. There are positives and negatives on each side, being miserable and bitter about it is not going to get us anywhere. The country now need to change, and make it a change for the good.
Click to expand...

Yep,

No point in crying over spilt milk and no amount of negative pub banter on a car forum is going to change anything either.

Its now time for everybody in Britain to pull together and make Brexit the success it deserves to be.


----------



## Dash

Oh, sorry, you expected the remain voters to suddenly want to work harder to make up for your choice? Nah mate, you can do my extra work. The 52% have shunned our neighbours across the channel (and Scotland, and NI, and Gibraltar), I see no difference in shunning the same 52%.


----------



## leopard

What else are you going to do, a dirty protest ? Burn your bras ? :roll:


----------



## les

A day to be proud to be British. We were never got the chance to vote to join the EU but we got the chance to tell the governments there were wrong to take us in without a mandate to do so. Democracy has spoken and long may democracy live.
The Guardian has a good piece today on why the country voted to leave here.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... pean-union


----------



## John-H

It's not a game of football with best side wins and sportsman like acceptance. People's jobs, homes and well-being are at stake - all because of Tory party squabbles. The government just abrogated it's responsibility to govern in the country's best interest by handing the decision over to the ley public. :evil:

Make the best of it of course but what's the plan?


----------



## drjam

barry_m2 said:


> Dash said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is not a proud day to be British. I am deeply saddened by the events. We've seen fear and irrational propaganda take hold in countries before, sometimes this has resulted in the spiral to war - we can but hope that this doesn't happen this time.
> 
> 
> 
> Well it would appear for every 1 person with that view, there is 1 and a bit people that feel proud. There are positives and negatives on each side, being miserable and bitter about it is not going to get us anywhere. The country now need to change, and make it a change for the good.
Click to expand...

+1
Personally I voted in, but it's not going to do me any good or turn back the clock by moaning about it. We are where we are, so make the best of it.

Besides, the vast majority of issues people moan about in this country result from domestic policy choices, not the EU - that's just proven to be something useful to blame. So part of me is actually relieved that at least that excuse has gone going forwards. 
Equally, the idea that this will prove to be a blow to the rich/establishment/corporates is a mirage: the rich will do just fine (recessions mean cheaper assets to buy up, concentrating wealth still further, and business is global: if wealthy individuals or corporates can make more money somewhere else, they'll simply move).

I think in the short-term "remainers" will be disappointed, but they'll quickly get on with life (bit stereotypical: but they'll tend to be people who can afford to). 
For "outers", I think there'll be jubilation in the short-term, but then a realisation that being "independent" hasn't actually solved much at all; that it's here at home they need to rethink who they're voting for.

So it'll be interesting to see how this changes domestic politics, where the changes needed to address people's concerns actually lie.
In a few year's time, will those at the wrong end of the income inequality ladder who voted "out" believe the likes of Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage, Michael Gove and co. really did this on their behalf?


----------



## Von Twinzig

NickG said:


> Who needed the last 3 years of stability and growth anyway?! :x
> 
> Not a great fan of coming to work to be a part of our relatively new and growing construction business wondering if the future is going to be as bleak as it was between 2009 and 2013 with orders hard to find and the constant threat of an empty orderbook looming over you. Cheers Leave campaign, great job.


Like Nick I'm in construction, unlike Nick I'm an elder statesman who's now been through 3 recessions, with construction paying the price for market mismanagement by other sectors each time. The last couple of years we've started to get back on track. House builders are the barometer of our market confidence. It's been that way for decades. The house builder shares took a hit this morning. Yes, It's early in the game, but I have my fingers and toes all crossed that it's just a knee jerk reaction. We'll see.

Second insight: for my bad luck I was born and grew up in Thurrock (nr Lakeside), it took me 23 years to escape to the outside world. I just saw on TV the top 10 voting areas who had the highest "leave" percentage, Thurrock was 5th. I have a few family there and see them a couple of times a year. Once we've discussed the weather and the performance of "West 'am" the conversation always gets on to immigration. It is the only non family topic of conversation. Be in no doubt, after giving Johnny Foreigner the two fingers, this decision has been made largely on the topic of immigration. Scary thought.

VT


----------



## les

The only people you can "blame" or congratulate if you prefer is the EU themselves nobody else. Move on there is much work to do as we all knew would be the case. Short term pain for long term gain. Democracy is alive and well in the UK if only in a watered down form in many other EU countries. Stop the bitching and get behind the country instead of ridiculing it.


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> It`s not me asking the questions in the video


What questions? You made a statement that he was "banned as a suspected terrorist" and I'm simply wondering how you can know that when the people who cancelled his visa (yes, no one has said he's even 'banned') have made no statement. I accept that very few people are reading your posts, but I had assumed at least *you* were.



bobclive22 said:


> the US give $27 million to the group and ban the leader, I think you have the 3 monkeys syndrome, by the way, it appears according to you there are over 17 million racist people like myself in the UK that have questioned mass immigration. Have a talk with your dad he will put you right.
> 
> In the end common sense prevailed and we can now sail our own course.


Unfortunately my dad is a bit too dead to join in this delightful debate, but he loved Europe, spoke a number of European languages and lived and worked in a few European countries before he became a teacher (and ultimately a head master). I'm proud to say he was nothing like you and would have completely disagreed with just about every awful word you say. He devoted most of his life to educating and shaping the future of the children he taught, and he would have continued that task by voting Remain.


bobclive22 said:


> The pounds dropped but it`s only profit taking.


So far, you've not written anything that makes me believe you're intelligent enough to tie your own shoelaces, so you'll have to forgive me if I don't have a lot of confidence in your understanding of international economics. Thanks for posting your baseless guesswork though.


----------



## John-H

Don't like the sound of this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36537906


----------



## 3TT3

[smiley=thumbsup.gif] on the result and this is only my opinion.
The British people have stopped the "european juggernaut " and perhaps some Irish people resident in the UK(the only non UK citizens allowed to vote). 
The Irish (rep of Ireland) people were bullied yet again into reversing their original decision to stop the last "United states of Europe" treaty(lisbon) in 2008.Perhaps if we hadnt been tipping our caps and scared and cajoled into changing ,this UK referendum wouldnt have been necessary at all.
The reasons it was called are now,or should be irrelevant.
The fact that the actual caller(Cameron) doesnt seem to have had a full plan for exit smacks of shortsightedness, and now hes off..here next guy can handle it.
Then again our own PM when pressed didnt seem to have any BREx contingency plan either.
Just a blinkered "go to England and tell the UK Irish to vote remain and itll be alright on the night"

One thing to be carefull of,as I posted before is "We must accept the will of the people" comments from Prime ministers/politicians.My experience is they dont care about the will of the people if it disagrees with theirs.

In 2008:

_"At the end of the referendum count last June, the Taoiseach Brian Cowen said 'The will of the people as expressed at the ballot box is sovereign. The Government accepts and respects the verdict of the Irish people'.
"However, within a very short period he and the leadership of Fianna Fail reneged on that commitment and said that the ratification process must continue.

"The fact is that a second Lisbon referendum will be on exactly the same Treaty which we rejected last June. Not one single word will be changed in the Treaty. Not one legal obligation will be changed. The same Lisbon Treaty will again be presented to the people of Ireland for ratification," _

Weve had it here 

I thought Farage's performance on the night was laughable ,"weve lost , and excuses posted, maybe we havent .. oh no we havent and a dumb "weve won" speech . now since his lifes dream is realised  he can retire finally this time.

Hopefully the UK wont be conned into "another go, till you get it right" referendum.. will the rest of europe push for that? you bet.Not the people but the politicians.


----------



## Von Twinzig

les said:


> Short term pain for long term gain.


Define "short term" ?

VT


----------



## Spandex

3TT3 said:


> The fact that the actual caller(Cameron) doesnt seem to have had a full plan for exit smacks of shortsightedness, and now hes off..here next guy can handle it.


It seems pretty clear that he did have a plan all along, and that plan was to resign. Can't really say I blame him either, because he was never going to be able to run such a divided party in the event of a leave vote. I do wonder how the low earners who voted leave will feel when they get their wish - a damaged economy combined with Boris Johnson as PM. If anyone thinks that combination is going to be good for the poorer people in the country, they're deluded. Bob and Les think they've voted for the working class... Who do they think will be hit hardest by right wing Tory austerity plans?



3TT3 said:


> Hopefully the UK wont be conned into "another go, till you get it right" referendum.. will the rest of europe push for that? you bet.Not the people but the politicians.


As far as I can remember, during the build up, the only person who ever publicly suggested the possibility of a 're-referendum' in the event of a close call was Farage. Strangely though, despite it being incredibly close, he's not called for another referendum... All about integrity, Farage. :roll:


----------



## leopard

Not just Cameron.

A motion of no confidence has been issued against Corbyn now.

It's all going turbo down in the Westminster village


----------



## Dash

Oh fantastic. We've pushed the country into turmoil, and now parliament is falling apart. Stick it to them, yeah, silly politicians, see how they like it when we screw with them.

At least now my bananas won't be regulated.... You want How Much for a banana? That's not fair!


----------



## les

Von Twinzig said:


> les said:
> 
> 
> 
> Short term pain for long term gain.
> 
> 
> 
> Define "short term" ?
> 
> VT
Click to expand...

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/short-term

Perhaps it will be a short term before the remain side will call for a new referendum. 
However it is known it will take years of hard work to achieve the aims as a free trading nation but you have to start somewhere and it won't happen all in one go. Nobody can put a definitive period on it as there are so many influencing factors involved and as said it will most happen bit by bit as the EU and the UK scramble to make trading agreements.


----------



## Spandex

Dash said:


> Oh fantastic. We've pushed the country into turmoil, and now parliament is falling apart. Stick it to them, yeah, silly politicians, see how they like it when we screw with them.
> 
> At least now my bananas won't be regulated.... You want How Much for a banana? That's not fair!


Yep, there will be leave voters rubbing their hands together with glee at the thought of causing all this. A brief drunken feeling of power and agency, before the hangover kicks in when the economy doesn't suddenly recover in a months time.


----------



## cheechy

Sorry the British people didn't vote for this - it was the english (and to a lesser degree the welsh I concede).

Now been confirmed that Scottish independence referendum 2 is coming on the basis that Scotland are being forced out of Europe against their will.

TBH its a very clear mandate and hard to argue against.

Very sad day as I voted to stay in EU and was a staunch supported of the union - until now that is. I suspect this time it will be a yes to Scotland going their own way. The consequences of this vote outcome are monumental.

Deciding to have this vote to solve Conservative party in-fighting will surely go down as one of the biggest political blunders of this century.


----------



## Toshiba

Well i guess its buy one get one free today. 
scotland to leave UK too.


----------



## les

We have been in the EU 43 years and to get to the point the UK electorate has had enough of it. It won't be that long before the country is up and running and being more prosperous than many other EU countries as we are the 5th largest economy in the world. I hear the people of France are now calling fo a referendum. I wonder if what's left of democracy will allow a referendum.
Guys time to stop bitching the country has spoken. Get behind the country or fall on your sword the grass is greener in the other countries in the EU for you...maybe. 
There is no more to be said the decision has been made. Let's build a better UK and go forward together and stop this end is nigh stuff.

As far as i am concerned this thread is now dead and run it's course, the question has been answered. If people want to start a thread about the aftermath then so be it you are free to do so.


----------



## cheechy

Les I'll correct and say english electorate as you seemed to have glossed over the comments above.

I dont think you get how serious the consequences are here - its almost certain the UK is breaking up on the back of this vote and I'm still coming to grips with it.

England can look forward to a great future on its own - but good luck I'm sure you'll do fine.


----------



## ZephyR2

1.	Cameron and his cronies should have considered the possibility of an Exit vote and worked out a strategy BEFORE making any promise of a referendum to the populous. Their failure to do so is an indication of their arrogance and incompetence. Without any such plans actually in place this referendum should not even have been put on the table.

2.	This referendum has chiefly focused upon 2 issues - immigration and the amount of money we pay into the EU. In the absence of any hard facts from either side about how the future might pan out people have just gone with their gut feeling.

3.	Most of the people commenting on here, and on social media, sound like they are well educated and probably well heeled too. Unfortunately such people, just like Labour and Conservative MPs, are very often out of touch with the common man.
- a.	Xenophobia and racism is still prevalent in ordinary communities. Legislation and workplace policies have put a lid on the problem but it's not gone away. Get people where they feel they can speak freely and you'll see how a large number of people really feel about such things.
- b.	People still feel bitter about apparent unfair travesties brought about by the Human Rights Act (such as the battle to deport Abu Hamza and the like) and they feel that Europe is to blame for it all.

4.	Looking at the results for England and Wales if you take out London and the Home Counties and you can see that there is a large majority of the electorate that voted to leave. This indicates a widespread level of discontent amongst the populous about our relationship with Europe and with the way things are run. This wasn't just a vote against Europe; it was a vote against the failure of the parliament system to represent their views as well. Business and parliament are too London centric and Scotland and N. Ireland have their own agendas.


----------



## barry_m2

ZephyR2 said:


> 1.	Cameron and his cronies should have considered the possibility of an Exit vote and worked out a strategy BEFORE making any promise of a referendum to the populous. Their failure to do so is an indication of their arrogance and incompetence. Without any such plans actually in place this referendum should not even have been put on the table.
> 
> 2.	This referendum has chiefly focused upon 2 issues - immigration and the amount of money we pay into the EU. In the absence of any hard facts from either side about how the future might pan out people have just gone with their gut feeling.
> 
> 3.	Most of the people commenting on here, and on social media, sound like they are well educated and probably well heeled too. Unfortunately such people, just like Labour and Conservative MPs, are very often out of touch with the common man.
> - a.	Xenophobia and racism is still prevalent in ordinary communities. Legislation and workplace policies have put a lid on the problem but it's not gone away. Get people where they feel they can speak freely and you'll see how a large number of people really feel about such things.
> - b.	People still feel bitter about apparent unfair travesties brought about by the Human Rights Act (such as the battle to deport Abu Hamza and the like) and they feel that Europe is to blame for it all.
> 
> 4.	Looking at the results for England and Wales if you take out London and the Home Counties and you can see that there is a large majority of the electorate that voted to leave. This indicates a widespread level of discontent amongst the populous about our relationship with Europe and with the way things are run. This wasn't just a vote against Europe; it was a vote against the failure of the parliament system to represent their views as well. Business and parliament are too London centric and Scotland and N. Ireland have their own agendas.


1. Of course they did, but why would they tell you, the voter, that they have a plan in place if they fail at their job.
2. Yep, massive failure. Too much what if's and not enough facts (or rather none at all).
3. Spot on.
4. Spot on again.

So now, who's going to start a new thread titled: We've left, deal with it! :lol:


----------



## Spandex

les said:


> As far as i am concerned this thread is now dead and run it's course, the question has been answered. If people want to start a thread about the aftermath then so be it you are free to do so.


We're also free to carry on discussing it here, but thanks for giving us permission to start a new thread.. :roll:


----------



## Toshiba

cheechy said:


> Les I'll correct and say english electorate as you seemed to have glossed over the comments above.
> 
> I dont think you get how serious the consequences are here - its almost certain the UK is breaking up on the back of this vote and I'm still coming to grips with it.
> 
> England can look forward to a great future on its own - but good luck I'm sure you'll do fine.


Well thats not totally true..

Scotland has to vote yet, but i think England will be more than ok with scotland going as its another cost/tax we carry. However, where's scotland going? They may not even meet the EU requirements to join and they have a massive black hole in their finances, so it would go from a union where it has a voice to a union with no voice at all. Assuming a union exists and doesnt just collapse as france, denmark, italy push for their own vote.

Go for it i say.


----------



## datamonkey

les said:


> we are the 5th largest economy in the world.


I like your optimism but a few points:

- we "were" the 5th biggest world economy yesterday. Our stock/currency worth has dipped so much this morning we are already worth less than France. All within a few hours of the announcement. So we currently are the 6th biggest economy.
- If Scotland and N. Ireland decide they want out of the UK, we will all independently have much smaller "worth" and will all likely drop out of the top 10-20 biggest economies, maybe further.

This "leave" fantasy has serious consequences which do not bode well long-term for all involved. If Scotland and Ireland do leave the UK they will also be weaker whether they stay in the EU or not.

Why on earth we voted for uncertainty is beyond me.


----------



## Spandex

ZephyR2 said:


> 4.	Looking at the results for England and Wales if you take out London and the Home Counties and you can see that there is a large majority of the electorate that voted to leave. This indicates a widespread level of discontent amongst the populous about our relationship with Europe and with the way things are run.


Not really a large majority. Just a majority. It's easy to look at the BBCs two-tone map and forget that many of the blue regions were very closely contested. Certainly though, there is widespread discontent, although I think that discontent has been cleverly manipulated by politicians and the media to fool people into blaming the EU for problems that are caused by our own government. You can't have democracy without information - in other words a vote isn't democratic if the voters don't have access to all the information required to make an informed decision. Most of the leave voters have spent their whole lives reading Murdoch and his billionaire chums rags, being spoon fed a steady diet of anti-EU propaganda.


ZephyR2 said:


> This wasn't just a vote against Europe; it was a vote against the failure of the parliament system to represent their views as well. Business and parliament are too London centric and Scotland and N. Ireland have their own agendas.


I'm slightly terrified that there are people out there stupid enough to kick us out of Europe, with all the financial risks that entails, just to protest against our political system.

We're living in an era of anti-intellectualism, where it's perfectly acceptable for a leading politician to say "we've had enough of experts" (this is the man that was actually in charge of the education of all our children). Maybe Idiocracy will come true after all.


----------



## jamman

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-e ... m-36620139

Nothing new but I think Boris is getting confused.

"We cannot turn our backs on Europe. We are part of Europe."

If this whole situation wasn't so FUBAR I would laugh.


----------



## drjam

ZephyR2 said:


> 1.	Cameron and his cronies should have considered the possibility of an Exit vote and worked out a strategy BEFORE making any promise of a referendum to the populous. Their failure to do so is an indication of their arrogance and incompetence. Without any such plans actually in place this referendum should not even have been put on the table.


There undoubtedly has been consideration of an exit vote (e.g. the Governor of the BoE was out early this morning to reassure markets by talking about bank liquidity levels and so on, which certainly looked like a pre-planned statement to me). So there's undoubtedly been some crisis-management/response planning.

In terms of "strategy", I'm not sure what you'd expect? 
As I see it there are basically three things that will happen now:
1. An exit agreement, which isn't up to us but has to be first proposed by and then agreed with the other 27 EU countries. 
2. We have to negotiate the best deals we can with other countries on the trade front, which depends on them as much as us, both in terms of timetable and outcome. There's no way we could have gone to them and expected them to spend time, money and effort negotiating these in advance "just in case".
3. We the electorate have to decide which current "EU" things we don't like and want to ditch (immigration, worker rights, environmental regulations, fish quotas or whatever); which is for the various different UK politicians and parties to propose to us in order to try to get our votes at future elections, as we do with domestic policy.

i.e. none of these are things that Cameron could have had a pre-determined "strategy" for.


----------



## DTH

> I'm slightly terrified that there are people out there stupid enough to kick us out of Europe, with all the financial risks that entails, just to protest against our political system.


Wow, thanks.
Opinions are like arseholes - everyone's got one.


----------



## jamman

DTH said:


> I'm slightly terrified that there are people out there stupid enough to kick us out of Europe, with all the financial risks that entails, just to protest against our political system.
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, thanks.
> Opinions are like arseholes - everyone's got one.
Click to expand...

great input thank u


----------



## DTH

No problem - getting a bit sick of name calling.


----------



## Toshiba

Should 1.6M scots be able to have so much say...

I wanted to stay in the EU, but with a better deal, so I'm disappointed in the result but i find it even harder to swallow the scottish issue and complete lack of understanding from the normal SNP idiots. I would not be disappointed to see scotland leave the UK, I've had enough of the moaning.


----------



## cheechy

Toshiba said:


> Should 1.6M scots be able to have so much say...
> 
> I wanted to stay in the EU, but with a better deal, so I'm disappointed in the result but i find it even harder to swallow the scottish issue and complete lack of understanding from the normal SNP idiots. I would not be disappointed to see scotland leave the UK, I've had enough of the moaning.


Not taking the bait Tosh..I will say though it goes both ways.

And tbh of anyone on here that would say this it would be you - but I still love you for it :-*


----------



## datamonkey

Toshiba said:


> Should 1.6M scots be able to have so much say...
> 
> I wanted to stay in the EU, but with a better deal, so I'm disappointed in the result but i find it even harder to swallow the scottish issue and complete lack of understanding from the normal SNP idiots. I would not be disappointed to see scotland leave the UK, I've had enough of the moaning.


Do you know the % of UK GDP Scotland makes up out of interest?

Edit - don't worry Googled it - was 9.9% in 2013. If they left UK they would become very small globally as well as us.


----------



## Dash

FYI, only about 35% of people voted to leave, something like 28% people didn't vote. So the "majority" is as always with these things, only the majority of those who voted. Representative maybe, but always worth bearing in mind.

This is an interesting article: http://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/j ... newspapers


----------



## ZephyR2

Spandex said:


> I'm slightly terrified that there are people out there stupid enough to kick us out of Europe, with all the financial risks that entails, just to protest against our political system.


I'm more than slightly terrified that the people who were supposed to be running the country were so naive as to believe that the general electorate were capable of making an informed decision about such an important and complex issue. Particularly, as it turned out, in the absence of many true facts upon which to base a judgement.


----------



## Spandex

Dash said:


> FYI, only about 35% of people voted to leave, something like 28% people didn't vote. So the "majority" is as always with these things, only the majority of those who voted. Representative maybe, but always worth bearing in mind.
> 
> This is an interesting article: http://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/j ... newspapers


Maybe referendums where the choice is between 'doing something' and 'the status quo' should be run more like a petition. Everyone who wants to leave would go and put their names down and at the end, if more than 50% of the eligible population wanted to leave, we'd do it...


----------



## ZephyR2

drjam said:


> ZephyR2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1.	Cameron and his cronies should have considered the possibility of an Exit vote and worked out a strategy BEFORE making any promise of a referendum to the populous. Their failure to do so is an indication of their arrogance and incompetence. Without any such plans actually in place this referendum should not even have been put on the table.
> 
> 
> 
> There undoubtedly has been consideration of an exit vote (e.g. the Governor of the BoE was out early this morning to reassure markets by talking about bank liquidity levels and so on, which certainly looked like a pre-planned statement to me). So there's undoubtedly been some crisis-management/response planning.
> 
> In terms of "strategy", I'm not sure what you'd expect?
> As I see it there are basically three things that will happen now:
> 1. An exit agreement, which isn't up to us but has to be first proposed by and then agreed with the other 27 EU countries.
> 2. We have to negotiate the best deals we can with other countries on the trade front, which depends on them as much as us, both in terms of timetable and outcome. There's no way we could have gone to them and expected them to spend time, money and effort negotiating these in advance "just in case".
> 3. We the electorate have to decide which current "EU" things we don't like and want to ditch (immigration, worker rights, environmental regulations, fish quotas or whatever); which is for the various different UK politicians and parties to propose to us in order to try to get our votes at future elections, as we do with domestic policy.
> 
> i.e. none of these are things that Cameron could have had a pre-determined "strategy" for.
Click to expand...

Sorry I should have that clear. I was talking about an exit strategy for the country, not for himself.


----------



## jamman

No that wouldn't work that's too sensible.

I honestly think "The Scum" has had a major influence in this pushing the less well educated buttons.

I might be wrong but listening today in a cafe to an Englishman left me speechless and embarrassed.


----------



## Spandex

ZephyR2 said:


> Spandex said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm slightly terrified that there are people out there stupid enough to kick us out of Europe, with all the financial risks that entails, just to protest against our political system.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm more than slightly terrified that the people who were supposed to be running the country were so naive as to believe that the general electorate were capable of making an informed decision about such an important and complex issue. Particularly, as it turned out, in the absence of many true facts upon which to base a judgement.
Click to expand...

I don't think they ever believed the general public were capable of making an informed decision. In fact I think both sides were counting on the opposite. That's the arrogance of our political elite - they just assume they can manipulate the public to do whatever they want and are happy to lie in order to do that.

In the end it just came down to who was better at pulling the puppet strings.


----------



## Shug750S

cheechy said:


> As expected the out vote has already cost me and my family ££ thousands as the market had already built in a remain vote - as it turned out incorrectly.
> What a screw up


Yep, my pension fund has dropped by close on £75k when I looked earlier. Afraid to look again for a few days. Hopefully will stabilise in the next 5-6 years before I retire.

Unless of course some of the passionate leavers on here want to donate to top it up.

My employer has it's European head office in London, lots there worried about medium term in case they move it when we're no longer in Europe.

And now we have the pain of being in the EU for another couple of years and getting shafted until we leave.

Wonder what percentage of each sides vote (leave / remain) were taxpayers, so will feel the hit more as things dive, and money still needed for the NHS and benefits (for Brits not just Europeans here)


----------



## ZephyR2

jamman said:


> No that wouldn't work that's too sensible.
> 
> I honestly think "The Scum" has had a major influence in this pushing the less well educated buttons.
> 
> I might be wrong but listening today in a cafe to an Englishman left me speechless and embarrassed.


Yep! You, like many others on here who can put together a literate and cohesive argument, possibly don't often hear the likes of that Englishman sounding off. His opinions undoubtedly fed by "facts" from the likes of the Sun and the Mirror. But he's not alone. Look at some of our ambassadors that have gone to the Euros in France.


----------



## John-H

Dash said:


> FYI, only about 35% of people voted to leave, something like 28% people didn't vote. So the "majority" is as always with these things, only the majority of those who voted. Representative maybe, but always worth bearing in mind.
> 
> This is an interesting article: http://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/j ... newspapers


Cameron missed a trick - he could still have given people a referendum but with a 60:40 threshold. That way it would have been fairer so yet again a minority doesn't dictate to the rest of us.


----------



## leopard

John-H said:


> Dash said:
> 
> 
> 
> FYI, only about 35% of people voted to leave, something like 28% people didn't vote. So the "majority" is as always with these things, only the majority of those who voted. Representative maybe, but always worth bearing in mind.
> 
> This is an interesting article: http://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/j ... newspapers
> 
> 
> 
> Cameron missed a trick - he could still have given people a referendum but with a 60:40 threshold. That way it would have been fairer so yet again a minority doesn't dictate to the rest of us.
Click to expand...

Completely democratic and fair that one.

There's nothing like moving the goalposts to suit one's needs.

I assume if the vote had swung 60/40 you might have commented on a 70/30 split not being unreasonable :lol:


----------



## Dash

As Spandex said, it was a choice between do nothing and do something.

I suspect an opt-in sign up and see if you can get 50% of the country to agree would have gone very differently.

In fact, I'd hazard if it wasn't for the tabloids pushing buttons so much you wouldn't even get the 500k people between the in and out result to be interested.

Either way, for something like this, a government that took advice from the people who know and not the media and made an informed decision would have been a more favourable approach. This wasn't about Europe, it was about trying to stop the rest of the party "banging on" about Europe - it backfired, spectacularly. I bet Cameron is going to be feeling the guilt until the day he dies.


----------



## John-H

leopard said:


> John-H said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dash said:
> 
> 
> 
> FYI, only about 35% of people voted to leave, something like 28% people didn't vote. So the "majority" is as always with these things, only the majority of those who voted. Representative maybe, but always worth bearing in mind.
> 
> This is an interesting article: http://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/j ... newspapers
> 
> 
> 
> Cameron missed a trick - he could still have given people a referendum but with a 60:40 threshold. That way it would have been fairer so yet again a minority doesn't dictate to the rest of us.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Completely democratic and fair that one.
> 
> There's nothing like moving the goalposts to suit one's needs.
> 
> I assume if the vote had swung 60/40 you might have commented on a 70/30 split not being unreasonable :lol:
Click to expand...

Good enough for a strike ballot.


----------



## leopard

John-H said:


> leopard said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> John-H said:
> 
> 
> 
> Cameron missed a trick - he could still have given people a referendum but with a 60:40 threshold. That way it would have been fairer so yet again a minority doesn't dictate to the rest of us.
> 
> 
> 
> Completely democratic and fair that one.
> 
> There's nothing like moving the goalposts to suit one's needs.
> 
> I assume if the vote had swung 60/40 you might have commented on a 70/30 split not being unreasonable :lol:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Good enough for a strike ballot.
Click to expand...

Are your feet sore ?


----------



## Spandex

If anyone who reads a News Corp paper wants any evidence that they've been manipulated slowly over the years, this quote from Rupert Murdoch should tell you everything you need to know. When questioned on why he disliked the EU he replied,


> That's easy. When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.


This is what you've chosen. enjoy your new 'sovereignty'... :lol:


----------



## leopard

Spandex said:


> If anyone who reads a News Corp paper wants any evidence that they've been manipulated slowly over the years, this quote from Rupert Murdoch should tell you everything you need to know. When questioned on why he disliked the EU he replied,
> 
> 
> 
> That's easy. When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.
> 
> 
> 
> This is what you've chosen. enjoy your new 'sovereignty'... :lol:
Click to expand...

Your feet are definitely sore


----------



## rustyintegrale

leopard said:


> Not just Cameron.
> 
> A motion of no confidence has been issued against Corbyn now.
> 
> It's all going turbo down in the Westminster village


This is one reason I voted to stay in. I have zero confidence in any UK politician to do anything right and proper.


----------



## rustyintegrale

DTH said:


> Opinions are like arseholes - everyone's got one.


But some are more full of s*** than others...


----------



## NickG

leopard said:


> Spandex said:
> 
> 
> 
> If anyone who reads a News Corp paper wants any evidence that they've been manipulated slowly over the years, this quote from Rupert Murdoch should tell you everything you need to know. When questioned on why he disliked the EU he replied,
> 
> 
> 
> That's easy. When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.
> 
> 
> 
> This is what you've chosen. enjoy your new 'sovereignty'... :lol:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Your feet are definitely sore
Click to expand...

Ok, so what do you do for a living? It is relevant and I'm not asking because I'm lining up a personal attack, but for you to be so smug it clearly can't affect your industry?


----------



## datamonkey

Spandex said:


> If anyone who reads a News Corp paper wants any evidence that they've been manipulated slowly over the years, this quote from Rupert Murdoch should tell you everything you need to know. When questioned on why he disliked the EU he replied,
> 
> 
> 
> That's easy. When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.
> 
> 
> 
> This is what you've chosen. enjoy your new 'sovereignty'... :lol:
Click to expand...

Yeah but media and government manipulation is nothing new. Look at the weapons of mass destruction BS or the 9/11 coverup...


----------



## jamman

NickG said:


> Ok, so what do you do for a living? It is relevant and I'm not asking because I'm lining up a personal attack, but for you to be such a [email protected] it clearly can't affect your industry?


Then allow me lol I've corrected it for you Nick and I'm fully qualified in recognizing one.


----------



## ZephyR2

Of course we are all here on an Audi forum expressing pretty much one sided opinions. 
I wonder what's happening over on the Corsa and Fiesta forums at the moment.


----------



## ZephyR2

Well it was turning a bit bitchy.


----------



## leopard

NickG said:


> Ok, so what do you do for a living? It is relevant and I'm not asking because I'm lining up a personal attack, but for you to be so smug it clearly can't affect your industry?


I don't think you'd believe me if I told you.



jamman said:


> NickG said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, so what do you do for a living? It is relevant and I'm not asking because I'm lining up a personal attack, but for you to be such a wonker it clearly can't affect your industry?
> 
> 
> 
> Then allow me lol I've corrected it for you Nick and I'm fully qualified in recognizing one.
Click to expand...

You're quite an offensive s***,aren't you fella ?

What originally started out as a bit of banter you've taken it to another level.

By the sounds of it,I take it you're an only child.


----------



## jamman

Incorrect one of three one more offensive and one less.....

Next....


----------



## Trouble4

as an outsider it seems that all have a deep passion for their UK and that is a great start to a new beginning........

the plan does seem confusing as if to even have one once the vote to leave has been decided......

hopefully there will be a balance of ideas involved..... and hopefully nothing gets bogged down time wise

in politics or any where else (committees ect..) Pay the best for the best People as it should be.........

I believe UK can come through this and be better then what it was economically / socially / nothing like

accomplishment/s to boost morale......... [smiley=book2.gif] ... 8)


----------



## bobclive22

> Cameron missed a trick - he could still have given people a referendum but with a 60:40 threshold. That way it would have been fairer so yet again a minority doesn't dictate to the rest of us.


Do you mean like 4 million votes and no MP.


----------



## John-H

With my forum hat on - can we keep it civil to each other please?


----------



## bobclive22

> 1. Cameron and his cronies should have considered the possibility of an Exit vote and worked out a strategy BEFORE making any promise of a referendum to the populous.


He didn`t because he thought he could pull the same stunt on the Brits as he did on the Scotts.


----------



## DTH

rustyintegrale said:


> DTH said:
> 
> 
> 
> Opinions are like arseholes - everyone's got one.
> 
> 
> 
> But some are more full of s*** than others...
Click to expand...

....too true.


----------



## bobclive22

> Very surreal morning knowing a lot of people have registered a protest vote against the government - and knowing now that its likely that Scotland will leave the uk.


(1) It wasn`t a protest vote.
(2) The Scotts wont vote to leave the UK with dwindling oil reserves and a moratorium on fracking, I would like to see how they would run their economy on salmon, whiskey and windmills.


----------



## DTH

bobclive22 said:


> Very surreal morning knowing a lot of people have registered a protest vote against the government - and knowing now that its likely that Scotland will leave the uk.
> 
> 
> 
> (1) It wasn`t a protest vote.
> (2) The Scotts wont vote to leave the UK with dwindling oil reserves and a moratorium on fracking, I would like to see how they would run their economy on salmon, whiskey and windmills.
Click to expand...

That sounds like my kind of party :lol:


----------



## cheechy

bobclive22 said:


> Very surreal morning knowing a lot of people have registered a protest vote against the government - and knowing now that its likely that Scotland will leave the uk.
> 
> 
> 
> (1) It wasn`t a protest vote.
> (2) The Scotts wont vote to leave the UK with dwindling oil reserves and a moratorium on fracking, I would like to see how they would run their economy on salmon, whiskey and windmills.
Click to expand...

You started talking for me now as well Bob?

I can assure you just as "the people" decided economics weren't the top priority on ref vote yesterday equally the same will be in scotland. The mood from general election and this vote should tell you this.


----------



## Spaceman10

I will just leave this here for you guys

A Prime Minister resigned. The £ plummeted. The FTSE 100 lost significant ground. But then the £ rallied past February levels, and the FTSE closed on a weekly high: 2.4% up on last Friday, its best performance in 4 months. President Obama decided we wouldn't be at the 'back of the queue' after all and that our 'special relationship' was still strong. The French President confirmed the Le Touquet agreement would stay in place. The President of the European Commission stated Brexit negations would be 'orderly' and stressed the UK would continue to be a 'close partner' of the EU. A big bank denied reports it would shift 2,000 staff overseas. The CBI, vehemently anti-Brexit during the referendum campaign, stated British business was resilient and would adapt. Several countries outside the EU stated they wished to begin bi-lateral trade talks with the UK immediately. If this was the predicted apocalypse, well, it was a very British one. It was all over by teatime. Not a bad first day of freedom.

Phil


----------



## DTH

Spaceman10 said:


> ..... If this was the predicted apocalypse, well, it was a very British one. It was all over by teatime. Not a bad first day of freedom.
> 
> Phil


Sorry Phil - no measured, calm, common sense thinking allowed in this thread!


----------



## John-H

An idea I had - someone seems to have beaten me to it:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/br ... ml#gallery

The actual petition: https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215


----------



## Spaceman10

Ok mate sorry for that lol lol


----------



## Spandex

Spaceman10 said:


> I will just leave this here for you guys
> 
> A Prime Minister resigned. The £ plummeted. The FTSE 100 lost significant ground. But then the £ rallied past February levels, and the FTSE closed on a weekly high: 2.4% up on last Friday, its best performance in 4 months. President Obama decided we wouldn't be at the 'back of the queue' after all and that our 'special relationship' was still strong. The French President confirmed the Le Touquet agreement would stay in place. The President of the European Commission stated Brexit negations would be 'orderly' and stressed the UK would continue to be a 'close partner' of the EU. A big bank denied reports it would shift 2,000 staff overseas. The CBI, vehemently anti-Brexit during the referendum campaign, stated British business was resilient and would adapt. Several countries outside the EU stated they wished to begin bi-lateral trade talks with the UK immediately. If this was the predicted apocalypse, well, it was a very British one. It was all over by teatime. Not a bad first day of freedom.
> 
> Phil


You do realise we're still in the EU, right?


----------



## Spaceman10

John I don't think it will happen and I would be up set for me and the other 17 million people that have voted out.
Let us all just except it and move on.


----------



## DTH

John-H said:


> An idea I had - someone seems to have beaten me to it:
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/br ... ml#gallery


Good idea - maybe we should start another petition not to bother - also a good idea - and going on past experience it would get an extra 1.26 Million signatures.....

Eitherway both are pointless - it's done.


----------



## Spaceman10

Yes mate I do but saying all hell was about to rain down on us all it was not a bad day after all


----------



## Trouble4

Spandex said:


> Spaceman10 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I will just leave this here for you guys
> 
> A Prime Minister resigned. The £ plummeted. The FTSE 100 lost significant ground. But then the £ rallied past February levels, and the FTSE closed on a weekly high: 2.4% up on last Friday, its best performance in 4 months. President Obama decided we wouldn't be at the 'back of the queue' after all and that our 'special relationship' was still strong. The French President confirmed the Le Touquet agreement would stay in place. The President of the European Commission stated Brexit negations would be 'orderly' and stressed the UK would continue to be a 'close partner' of the EU. A big bank denied reports it would shift 2,000 staff overseas. The CBI, vehemently anti-Brexit during the referendum campaign, stated British business was resilient and would adapt. Several countries outside the EU stated they wished to begin bi-lateral trade talks with the UK immediately. If this was the predicted apocalypse, well, it was a very British one. It was all over by teatime. Not a bad first day of freedom.
> 
> Phil
> 
> 
> 
> You do realise we're still in the EU, right?
Click to expand...

but all the talks : trade and otherwise needs to begin now so all can and will take affect before the 2 years are up... part of the long wait of 2 years... in the EU on paper but not at all in trade talks or virtually anything else......


----------



## Spandex

Spaceman10 said:


> Yes mate I do but saying all hell was about to rain down on us all it was not a bad day after all


The remain campaign didn't say it would be an apocalypse today or any day, but let's see what happens when we get a bit closer to actually leaving and it becomes obvious we don't have as good a deal as the leave campaign promised.


----------



## Spandex

Trouble4 said:


> but all the talks : trade and otherwise needs to begin now so all can and will take affect before the 2 years are up... part of the long wait of 2 years... in the EU on paper but not at all in trade talks or virtually anything else......


Sure, but that's nothing to do with what happens today. The point is that you can't breath a sigh of relief just because we survived the day after the referendum. Nothing bad was ever going to happen today, apart from a load of market fluctuation from the uncertainty. The pain will begin a long time from now when our economy is actually affected by whatever is put in place when we leave.


----------



## bobclive22

> I assume if the vote had swung 60/40 you might have commented on a 70/30 split not being unreasonable


What seems fair is halve the 20% that didn`t vote and add 10% to each side, back to square one I believe. :roll:


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> I assume if the vote had swung 60/40 you might have commented on a 70/30 split not being unreasonable
> 
> 
> 
> What seems fair is halve the 20% that didn`t vote and add 10% to each side, back to square one I believe. :roll:
Click to expand...

Come on, own up. Who helped you with the maths there?


----------



## Spaceman10

Mate I really can't wait, let's make the uk great again 
We all need to work together 
The people have spoken and this is the out come 
Some people may not like it but it is what it is.
You do know the rest of the eu will follow us and take their own country back


----------



## DTH

> Sure, but that's nothing to do with what happens today. The point is that you can't breath a sigh of relief just because we survived the day after the referendum. Nothing bad was ever going to happen today, apart from a load of market fluctuation from the uncertainty. The pain will begin a long time from now when our economy is actually affected by whatever is put in place when we leave.


I couldn't trouble you for next Wednesdays Lotto numbers could I? Go on - be a sport :lol:


----------



## Spaceman10

+1 please


----------



## cheechy

Spaceman10 said:


> Mate I really can't wait, let's make the uk great again
> We all need to work together
> The people have spoken and this is the out come
> Some people may not like it but it is what it is.
> You do know the rest of the eu will follow us and take their own country back


Given how close the vote was and the continued uncertainty of all of this (and indeed my experience of what happened from the scottish indy vote in 2014) this will rumble on for a bit.

Its all very well for the people who voted to leave to say get over it, but for those who voted remain are still coming to terms with understanding what that means to their way of life, or what impact there could be. There's almost a feeling of loss for some not unlike bereavement.

Equally I'd suggest that if the vote had been a mirror image then one of the things I'd be hearing now would be stuff around how the people had spoken and whilst they hadn't won the day we needed to take their views into account on issues such as immigration and control.

So whilst leave has won and the referendum is now history how DO we take the 48.1% of UK voters into this without alienating them?


----------



## Spandex

Spaceman10 said:


> Mate I really can't wait, let's make the uk great again
> We all need to work together
> The people have spoken and this is the out come
> Some people may not like it but it is what it is.
> You do know the rest of the eu will follow us and take their own country back


The UK never stopped being great - we just got told we weren't great so often by the press that 52% of the country actually started to believe it. We were told it was all because of foreigners in the EU and immigrants coming here and more than half the country swallowed it hook, line and sinker. We were told it so much, it actually reached the point where someone could refer to migrants as cockroaches and nobody batted an eyelid.


----------



## Spandex

DTH said:


> Sure, but that's nothing to do with what happens today. The point is that you can't breath a sigh of relief just because we survived the day after the referendum. Nothing bad was ever going to happen today, apart from a load of market fluctuation from the uncertainty. The pain will begin a long time from now when our economy is actually affected by whatever is put in place when we leave.
> 
> 
> 
> I couldn't trouble you for next Wednesdays Lotto numbers could I? Go on - be a sport :lol:
Click to expand...

I forgot, you're a leave voter. You like your crystal ball predictions to be a bit more far fetched... I can throw in a few unicorns and talking squirrels if it helps?


----------



## DTH

Spandex said:


> DTH said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, but that's nothing to do with what happens today. The point is that you can't breath a sigh of relief just because we survived the day after the referendum. Nothing bad was ever going to happen today, apart from a load of market fluctuation from the uncertainty. The pain will begin a long time from now when our economy is actually affected by whatever is put in place when we leave.
> 
> 
> 
> I couldn't trouble you for next Wednesdays Lotto numbers could I? Go on - be a sport :lol:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I forgot, you're a leave voter. You like your crystal ball predictions to be a bit more far fetched... I can throw in a few unicorns and talking squirrels if it helps?
Click to expand...

Just common sense and a lack of personal fear would do. I can draw you a diagram if you like? Anyway - get over it - it's done.


----------



## John-H

Spandex said:


> DTH said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, but that's nothing to do with what happens today. The point is that you can't breath a sigh of relief just because we survived the day after the referendum. Nothing bad was ever going to happen today, apart from a load of market fluctuation from the uncertainty. The pain will begin a long time from now when our economy is actually affected by whatever is put in place when we leave.
> 
> 
> 
> I couldn't trouble you for next Wednesdays Lotto numbers could I? Go on - be a sport :lol:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I forgot, you're a leave voter. You like your crystal ball predictions to be a bit more far fetched... I can throw in a few unicorns and talking squirrels if it helps?
Click to expand...

 :lol: I shouldn't laugh as our credit rating has been downgraded


----------



## Spaceman10

Yes and it will be back up next week John


----------



## John-H

:wink:


----------



## DTH

Do we have a 'Lost and found' section on the forum?

I have found several dummies that appear to of been spat out with venom, rhetoric and quite startling arrogance near to this forum thread - I'd recommend a thorough wash before putting them back in though. (Due to the bile of course). Please let me know if they belong to you, by being condescending, rude, pusillanimous and anti-democratic :lol:

The link below may help.......

http://personaltao.com/teachings/questions/handling-fear/


----------



## ZephyR2

Spandex said:


> Sure, but that's nothing to do with what happens today. The point is that you can't breath a sigh of relief just because we survived the day after the referendum. Nothing bad was ever going to happen today, apart from a load of market fluctuation from the uncertainty. The pain will begin a long time from now when our economy is actually affected by whatever is put in place when we leave.


God! If ever a person suited their avatar it's you.


----------



## Spandex

ZephyR2 said:


> Spandex said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, but that's nothing to do with what happens today. The point is that you can't breath a sigh of relief just because we survived the day after the referendum. Nothing bad was ever going to happen today, apart from a load of market fluctuation from the uncertainty. The pain will begin a long time from now when our economy is actually affected by whatever is put in place when we leave.
> 
> 
> 
> God! If ever a person suited their avatar it's you.
Click to expand...

Almost as if I chose it on purpose?


----------



## DTH

Just like the UK.
Is there no one else? 
#winning


----------



## jamman

Spaceman10 said:


> Yes and it will be back up next week John


I wish I shared your optimism Phil I really do, I hope I'm wrong and in a couple of years you remind me.

https://www.moodys.com/research/Moodys- ... -PR_350566


----------



## John-H

jamman said:


> Spaceman10 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes and it will be back up next week John
> 
> 
> 
> I wish I shared your optimism Phil I really do, I hope I'm wrong and in a couple of years you remind me.
> 
> https://www.moodys.com/research/Moodys- ... -PR_350566
Click to expand...

Moodys rating is not a sort term market reaction. It's a long term outlook with months in the preparation so I don't believe for a moment that they will revise it by next week unless there is something significant to change the overall economic outlook - like an overturn of the referendum result.

President Obama has repeated his assertion that the UK will join the back of the queue when it comes to trade negotiations.

The French have said this morning that they will not renegotiate a trade deal with the UK.

A leading brexit campaigner Daniel Hannan has said that they never promised to reduce immigration.


----------



## Spaceman10

James I hope I am right, I just think we could not carry on the way the uk was going look at the last 20 years 
Where I work I see it every day wages kept low due to over supplie of labour, it was never a good idea for low pay earners 
John the French will want to deal with us, who will they sell their wine, cars and farm goods etc etc.
France Spain Italy are a mess at the mo just look at what is going on on there streets 
They cannot afford not to trade 
Come on guys glass half full not half empty


----------



## A3DFU

jamman said:


> Spaceman10 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes and it will be back up next week John
> 
> 
> 
> I wish I shared your optimism Phil I really do, I hope I'm wrong and in a couple of years you remind me.
> 
> https://www.moodys.com/research/Moodys- ... -PR_350566
Click to expand...

I've worked very hard all my life, both, here in England and in Germany; I've paid my taxes in both countries and I still pay taxes here in England. 
I have (small) pensions from both countries but must supplement them by still working at the age of 67 if I want to enjoy a reasonably good life.
I've saved some K£s for a rainy day (if I can no longer work) and I'd hoped that I might be able to retire fully at the age of 70. That planning's gone up the wall after a substantial amount has been wiped off my savings after Thursday's referendum. I might have to work until age 80 or so now.
In two years time, once England has fully separated from the EU, will I need a visa and a work permit to live and work here in England to live close to my sons and my grandson?


----------



## Dash

I expect nothing will change for you. Britain needs to maintain access to the EU market, especially for it's core financial economy to survive.

The cost if this will definitely include free movement with less special agreements than we have now. So in all likelihood you'll still be able to work and live here.


----------



## Spaceman10

I have work for over 30 year and never take a penny from the state.
My pensions are like most people a mess due to year gone by and the banking problems.
I think most people will have to work long in to there 70s if they can.
As for having to leave no one has said that, it's all about numbers and having control who comes in and out.
We are a small island that needs to take care of every body who is here 
Look at the problem Germany and France are having now due to no control.
You really thing it good for them 
I really hope they can come out the other side of this mess 
For me I give the EU 5 years before it all falls apart and the country's take back control


----------



## A3DFU

Dash said:


> I expect nothing will change for you.


Only time will tell, Dash.
Being able to listen to different news broadcasts in different languages (English and German), which I do on a daily basis, it certainly got me thinking.
Yes, I live in England since 1985 and work here but I kept my German nationality.....


----------



## Shug750S

A3DFU said:


> Dash said:
> 
> 
> 
> I expect nothing will change for you.
> 
> 
> 
> Only time will tell, Dash.
> Being able to listen to different news broadcasts in different languages (English and German), which I do on a daily basis, it certainly got me thinking.
> Yes, I live in England since 1985 and work here but I kept my German nationality.....
Click to expand...

And so you should, you are a German who lives here, and rightly keep your German nationality.

I voted remain, but really don't understand why a lot of immigrants, and normally those from outside the EU want to become British, unless it's to access welfare or something... If I lived in the US, why would I go for US nationality? I'm British... And proud of it.

I have British friends working all over the world and none of them have gone for new citizenship. Yep, they have gone for residency or whatever as makes entry into the country easier, as avoid queues at immigration, but none of them have changed or gone for dual nationality.


----------



## John-H

Spaceman10 said:


> John the French will want to deal with us, who will they sell their wine, cars and farm goods etc etc.
> France Spain Italy are a mess at the mo just look at what is going on on there streets
> They cannot afford not to trade
> Come on guys glass half full not half empty


The problem is now Phil, that the half empty glass will take action to fill it with cooperation from both sides. Given the work needed and the politics involved there is no guarantee of the success of this - wine may get spilt, water may get used and the bottle may become empty. You can't fill it with optimism either unfortunately.

We had favorable rebates and opt outs - all of that will be reset to naught if we leave (we haven't yet) - the Prime Minister's recent concessions vanished on the referendum result as it was written into that agreement.

There is a huge and impractical job for the civil service to re-draft legislation to coincide with the eventual agreement with Europe and extracate the country from what took 40 years of harmonisation to achieve. What looks most likely is that the required basic EU legislation will simply be cut and pasted into statute as it is the only practical way to do this and slowly negotiate out things we don't want. That includes the free movement of people and is loosely called the "Norway" model in order to gain single market access. To many out voters this is against what they voted for of course but may well end up with.

You may argue for the "Canada" model without single market access but good luck achieving that full glass of multiple agreements in time for exit. So much for trade.

This was all explained before the vote but it's not a simple and catchy message because it's a fantastically complicated beast - so not enough people listened and choose to use emotion and many just had a protest vote because foolish Cameron have then a free hit.

People don't seem to see how they've been manipulated by the likes of I want to be PM Boris and his friends who saw his PR appeal, either. And don't forget the chuckling newspaper owners using base xenophobia to push buttons with the ever helpful Nigel.

That's what you get when you release a misinformation campaign on the ley public. It's like a court with no judge but two battling out of control barristers with nobody to keep order and give helpful direction to the jury.

Accept it or reject it. There's still time if there's a will. https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215


----------



## datamonkey

Don't panic. All may not be lost, read this...

http://www.standard.co.uk/business/anth ... 2621.html#

Don't read the commenters at the bottom though that say a lot of "leave" voters are regretting their decisions! FFS


----------



## jamman

I see the petition is going strong.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

I'm not sure why they cant use something like this for voting or the Government Gateway service.


----------



## Spaceman10

I think The petition can't be used for what people want 
Any one can add to it which would not be right or mean any thing.
The peopl of the U.K. Have spoken.
I was surprise that we won and I was for out from the start and very happy.
The will of the people have spoken why is it so hard for people to except it.


----------



## rustyintegrale

datamonkey said:


> Don't panic. All may not be lost, read this...
> 
> http://www.standard.co.uk/business/anth ... 2621.html#
> 
> Don't read the commenters at the bottom though that say a lot of "leave" voters are regretting their decisions! FFS


FFS indeed. Somebody said on the radio today the UK doesn't have enough skilled people to negotiate a trade deal.

Nothing like preparation then. Why was this information not presented prior to the vote along with all the other 'facts' that are slowly coming to light?

Now all the Dad's Army brigade have got 'their country back', I hope they have something other than broomsticks and the euphoria of 'land of hope and glory' to best manage the shit only half the population voted to drop us in.


----------



## A3DFU

datamonkey said:


> Don't panic. All may not be lost, read this...
> 
> http://www.standard.co.uk/business/anth ... 2621.html#
> 
> Don't read the commenters at the bottom though that say a lot of "leave" voters are regretting their decisions! FFS


What has happened on Thursday feels like being hit over the head. The goal of a united Europe the generation of my grandparents, my parents and my own generation worked so hard for has been killed in this country in one swift move.

I always was (and am) of the opinion that partners ought to talk about their differences and find a mutual solution to a problem, as it should have been within the EU. Stamping angry feet and running away is no constructive way forward in my opinion. Usually, the one running away suffers most.



John-H said:


> We had favorable rebates and opt outs - all of that will be reset to naught if we leave (we haven't yet) - the Prime Minister's recent concessions vanished on the referendum result as it was written into that agreement.


The UK had a very favourable status with in EU with opt out clauses for basically every decision taken within the EU. Why throw this away?

The petition has now already reached over 1 Mio signatures

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215


----------



## jamman

I have a sneaky feeling that the EU will make this as painful as possible for us as a deterrent to other countries.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36626553


----------



## ZephyR2

jamman said:


> I have a sneaky feeling that the EU will make this as painful as possible for us as a deterrent to other countries.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36626553


Yep I think you're quite right. Not least because of the growing rumblings in France, Netherlands and Italy - who are all big players in EU. It all started to go tits up with the Eastern Enlargement in 2004 IMO. :?


----------



## ZephyR2

A3DFU said:


> The petition has now already reached over 1 Mio signatures
> 
> https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215


Ha! What a surprise. So for once those who are less well off, working class (if it still exists), don't have great job security and their like have won the day. And those who are better off, better educated and are used to being in control just can't hack it. Dummies being spat out all over the place.
I'm not saying that Leave was the right decision but the people of the country have voted - accept it. Other peoples decisions are just as good as yours.

Well actually they're not. TBH I don't think 95% of the electorate were capable of making a valid decision on this referendum it being such a complex issue with so many far reaching and unknowable consequences. Which makes you wonder why Cameron offered us this vote in the first place. 
Oh hang on a min. You don't think he could have offered it in order to gain more votes in the 2015 election do you? :roll:

Mr Cameron - please take your place alongside Tony Blair as Prime Ministers who have F***ed up this country for us.


----------



## rustyintegrale

Deep joy. Has nobody in politics ever heard of a contingency plan?

Mark Carney seems to be the only person with an inkling...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidschrie ... e4b8f34bf3


----------



## cheechy

Something I picked up in a link here talking about capital punishment is interesting.

Talks about the fact that this would never go to a public vote as they would fear that we would vote in favour of bringing the death penalty back.

So I ask what's the difference here?

For the record I'm against but as a nation I too would fear the level of support it may get.

I'll be lobbying my local mp to vote against the act of Parliament that will invoke article 50, and given its an snp mp I'm rather optimistic this is a possibility.

Sorry but this morning I've decided I'm not giving up on this until we sign on the dotted line. In the coming weeks and months when the hardship starts to bite then maybe, just maybe some may have realised an out wasn't a great decision.


----------



## John-H

Spaceman10 said:


> ...The will of the people have spoken why is it so hard for people to except it.


Because only about 35% of people voted to leave with 28% not voting and a large part of the 35% voting out were voting for something they are not going to get.



jamman said:


> I have a sneaky feeling that the EU will make this as painful as possible for us as a deterrent to other countries.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36626553


Yes. Reported today that the EU financial passport system which allows cross border service provision will not apply to the UK unless we are in the single market ("Norway" option). Not having the passport system will push companies to move to mainland Europe.


----------



## rustyintegrale

jamman said:


> I have a sneaky feeling that the EU will make this as painful as possible for us as a deterrent to other countries.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36626553


Who can blame them?

They have a whole hoard of immigrants wanting to come to the UK and they are living in Calais whilst trying to find a way over. Because the UK has a customs point on the French side they are stuck with them. By removing the UK's right to have that customs point they will simply shift the problem from Calais to Dover and our woefully undermanned border control will have to deal with it there.

So what contingency plan has Brexit put in place to deal with that?


----------



## Spaceman10

So if your right why have the leave won
Is it that hard to take on board.
Let just work together and move on 
The EU is finished, long term other country's will follow, you have just got to look at what is going on 
I think we have just made it just in time 
Germany France Italy Spain all have massive problems, and don't for get what happening to Greece.
You really want to be part of that dying club 
Good luck with that one train leaving at platform one if it means that much to people


----------



## Spaceman10

See there the problem, they are in France not the uk it's France's problem 
If there boarders were better and they had there own controllers they wold not be sitting in Calais
It like Germany having the same problem (which they have) and saying again it's (uk) our problem.


----------



## rustyintegrale

Spaceman10 said:


> See there the problem, they are in France not the uk it's France's problem


They are now because there is a UK border post in France preventing their travel to the UK. Once that is gone they will be free to travel to the UK because the French will do nothing to stop them. Therefore they will be our problem...


----------



## Spaceman10

So look at it like this 
If they was to come by plane the airlines would be in trouble.
Same thing here if they come by truck, car, coach or boat same thing.
Also we would be able to deport with out all the restrictions of the dying EU


----------



## John-H

Many are regretting their vote now:

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics ... 80361.html


----------



## 3TT3

What you have is a minority who dont like the way the vote went thas it .
1. Did these people really vote to leave? who knows
2.If they did vote to leave and 'oh I didnt really mean it" it was a bit of a lark? or I wanted it close and I guessed wrong wth?
3. Should they be allowed to vote at all for anything?

Just be carefull over there that you dont get railroaded into a rerun by EU govts running scared and barking threats making tough noises .
Next thing you know itll be some kind of EU super new offer much better than Camerons deal, if only youll revote and do what youre told this time.
The threats worked on us ,cos we needed bailout cash bad and there was a list of 8 iou promises by other EU leaders..the promises have never been mentioned again ,after the Irish Sheep got it right.. forget em.


----------



## Spaceman10

Best one yet John lol lol 
Did they not have enough time to think which box to put there cross in lol


----------



## ZephyR2

Spaceman10 said:


> Best one yet John lol lol
> Did they not have enough time to think which box to put there cross in lol


LOL LOL Very funny.

Anyway I don't see what all fuss is about. England, Wales and N. Ireland are all still Europe. At least until Monday.


----------



## A3DFU

jamman said:


> I have a sneaky feeling that the EU will make this as painful as possible for us as a deterrent to other countries.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36626553


That's what they said last night, James.

I also find this interesting reading:

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/articl ... paign=i100


----------



## jamman

http://digiday.com/publishers/comment-f ... te-brexit/


----------



## Shug750S

Spaceman10 said:


> So look at it like this
> If they was to come by plane the airlines would be in trouble.
> Same thing here if they come by truck, car, coach or boat same thing.
> Also we would be able to deport with out all the restrictions of the dying EU


Agree on the above.

I travel globally for work most weeks. When I check in at LHR they check my passport and visa (lots of places I go need visas) as if there are any issues and I get refused admission it's the airlines problem to fly me back (not happened yet as my visas are always in order.

Anyone arriving at Dover or any other port without the right papers can surely just be returned to France.

Not sure we should even discuss asylum with them, as France is not a place where we would expect people to want asylum from, as it's a relatively safe and stable place, so just reject the claim on the spot and ferry company has to return them.

If it happens enough the ferry companies will set up their own screening and security at the other end.


----------



## Spaceman10

I was the same as you mate 
When I was traveling for work I came across the same, never got stopped my paper work was alway in order

Phil


----------



## Dash

They can only be returned to France if they are French citizens. If entry is denied they'll be held in camps (essentially prisons) before being transported back to their country of origin. All at the UK tax payers expense, natch.

Of course, if they are from a war torn country like Syria they'll be allowed asylum and allowed in.


----------



## Spaceman10

Well that can change now we are out 
So Off they go back to the family's they left behind and fight for there own country like our grandparents did in the 1st and 2nd world wars


----------



## Shug750S

Dash said:


> They can only be returned to France if they are French citizens. If entry is denied they'll be held in camps (essentially prisons) before being transported back to their country of origin. All at the UK tax payers expense, natch.
> 
> Of course, if they are from a war torn country like Syria they'll be allowed asylum and allowed in.


Disagree. If arriving from France without correct papers they can return there, as we won't be part of the EU and the ferry company will be responsible.

If they claim asylum and they have arrived from France they can go back as they could have claimed asylum there. We only have to accept asylum claimants if they arrive direct from the place where they are running from. They are safe in France.

Remember as we won't be part of the EU, the EU rules don't apply. In any case the EU rules are that they should claim asylum in the first EU country (place of safety) they reach.


----------



## John-H

I don't think people fully realise the consequences. Neither do the out campaigners have a plan.

I mentioned passporting earlier - Morgan Stanley have said they will move 2,500 jobs out of London and HSBC have added 1,000 jobs to the exodus from London - if the UK leaves the single market. There are plenty of other banking, insurance and financial services in the city in a similar situation.

Warnings about these effects and the financial heart moving to Frankfurt etc were given but that was just scare mongering and we were told to ignore the experts by Michael Gough :roll:

So, what's the plan guys? Join the single market? Think about the consequences.


----------



## Spandex

Spaceman10 said:


> Well that can change now we are out
> So Off they go back to the family's they left behind and fight for there own country like our grandparents did in the 1st and 2nd world wars


Welcome to the Leave voters vision of 'great' Britain...


----------



## Shug750S

John-H said:


> I don't think people fully realise the consequences. Neither do the out campaigners have a plan.
> 
> I mentioned passporting earlier - Morgan Stanley have said they will move 2,500 jobs out of London and HSBC have added 1,000 jobs to the exodus from London - if the UK leaves the single market. There are plenty of other banking, insurance and financial services in the city in a similar situation.
> 
> Warnings about these effects and the financial heart moving to Frankfurt etc were given but that was just scare mongering and we were told to ignore the experts by Michael Gough :roll:
> 
> So, what's the plan guys? Join the single market? Think about the consequences.


So just in the above job losses that's 3,500 less people paying tax to support the welfare payments etc.

Good call...


----------



## Spaceman10

Well you got one thing right and what wrong with what I Have said 
Would your grandparents run away, both of mine did not run in the 2nd world war they went off to fight for us to be free and I am very proud of what of both of them did.
Also both of them would be very happy of the out come of the 23rd


----------



## Spaceman10

John I really don't think Frankfurt is a place the banks would move to if it was going to happen
Also no jobs have been lost yet


----------



## John-H

Spaceman10 said:


> John I really don't think Frankfurt is a place the banks would move to if it was going to happen
> Also no jobs have been lost yet


I said etc. Morgan Stanley mentioned Dublin too. The point is it would be out of London and onto the EU. No jobs lost yet true but dependent on joining the single market. Is that the plan?


----------



## Spaceman10

Not one has said anything about moving yet 
London is the money place of the western world our expertise are the best.
Why would they move, new markets will open up 
The eu always want to get their hands on the city but now they know they can't have it.
We all should be pleased.


----------



## Spandex

Spaceman10 said:


> Well you got one thing right and what wrong with what I Have said
> Would your grandparents run away, both of mine did not run in the 2nd world war they went off to fight for us to be free and I am very proud of what of both of them did.
> Also both of them would be very happy of the out come of the 23rd


Where were your grand parents living when the war started?


----------



## Spaceman10

What that got to do with it.
But if you want to know the Midlands mate
True English men


----------



## John-H

Spaceman10 said:


> Not one has said anything about moving yet
> London is the money place of the western world our expertise are the best.
> Why would they move, new markets will open up
> The eu always want to get their hands on the city but now they know they can't have it.
> We all should be pleased.


Both Morgan Stanley and HSBC said. Some new countries coming along to replace the rest of Europe? Now they can't have it? What? [smiley=dizzy2.gif] I think it's time for bed.... I'll count bankers to help me sleep, hopefully they won't run out yet ... zzz


----------



## Spandex

Spaceman10 said:


> What that got to do with it.
> But if you want to know the Midlands mate
> True English men


I assumed when you said they didn't run away, they must have been living in a country that was invaded in the war. Well done to them for not running away (to? from?) though.

Fortunately, your grand parents generation weren't as bitter and twisted as you. The UK welcomed a massive influx of refugees during WW2. We didn't send them back where they came from to fight because back then, we were better than that. I'm sure they'd all be proud to hear us suggesting doing it now though.


----------



## Spaceman10

So you think the young men in Calais are brave men, let leave our family's behind, nice people.
And the riots in France you want the same people here, that will be nice for us all.
Bitter and twisted no mate just want the best for the uk.
I love the way people have to drop so low to try and get their point across. How the Labour Party doing today lol


----------



## Spandex

Spaceman10 said:


> So you think the young men in Calais are brave men let leave our family behind nice people.
> And the riots in France you want the same people here, that will be nice for us all.
> Bitter and twisted no mate just want the best for the uk.
> I love the way people have to drop so low to try and get their point across. How the labour part doing today lol


You're suggesting returning refugees to war zones, but apparently I'm 'dropping so low' for calling you bitter and twisted??


----------



## Spaceman10

These are not refugees these are young fighting men they are not women and children .
Funny how they can start fighting in France when they can't get what they want 
Ask some of the truck drivers that are coming from Calais 
And If it's so bad for them, why is France not taking care of them ask your self that.
My taxes should not be paying to take care of them. 
I am all for helping people but not for people to take the pi**


----------



## YELLOW_TT

Spandex said:


> Spaceman10 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So you think the young men in Calais are brave men let leave our family behind nice people.
> And the riots in France you want the same people here, that will be nice for us all.
> Bitter and twisted no mate just want the best for the uk.
> I love the way people have to drop so low to try and get their point across. How the labour part doing today lol
> 
> 
> 
> You're suggesting returning refugees to war zones, but apparently I'm 'dropping so low' for calling you bitter and twisted??
Click to expand...

Here's an idea let the women, children and the old folks stay as geunine refugees all those of military service age who come to the UK will be given the same basic training as out soldiers,armed and sent back to fight for there country see how many young fit men are so eage to get from the already safe haven of France etc to the UK


----------



## Spaceman10

Well said mate


----------



## Spandex

Grunting Neanderthals. If Britain is ever 'great' again, it'll be in spite of people like you, not because of them.


----------



## Spaceman10

O wow now name calling, i just love a good debate when the loser has to lower them selfs to name calling lol 
What wrong don't you like the true lol.
It a shame one day you will wake up and see what going on in the real world lol
Again train leaving at plate form one if you did not like the result lol 
Sinking ship across the water, run you can join it before it goes down lol lol lol


----------



## leopard

Exactly,that's why I suggested the remain lot have sore feet...
They've been treading sour grapes longer than advisable lol.

I'd go one further and state shut the door to all migration and pull the aid budget until we stabilise,then reconsider what suits our economy to what skills we need on a points basis.It is ridiculous to consider that anybody can come over and settle due to the physical size of our country.


----------



## Shug750S

leopard said:


> Exactly,that's why I suggested the remain lot have sore feet...
> They've been treading sour grapes longer than advisable lol.
> 
> I'd go one further and state shut the door to all migration and pull the aid budget until we stabilise,then reconsider what suits our economy to what skills we need on a points basis.It is ridiculous to consider that anybody can come over and settle due to the physical size of our country.


I voted remain, based in the financial turmoil that could result if we left without a plan. I have however accepted the outcome even if I didn't agree with it. Unlike Sturgeon who is throwing her toys out of the pram already. On that basis can other areas of the U.K. (London?, with a larger GDP than Scotland, and not subsidised by England) who voted out now stay. Of course not.

It now seems there is no plan, and the leave people have just realised they don't even have enough experienced trade negotiators, so we're not starting off well.

Do agree with the spotted one above, in that we've seen hits already and this could end up as death by a thousand cuts, with further hits on sterling, every time another part gets thrashed out in Europe, for the next two years or so. Maybe there should have been a plan for a quick exit, including:
Stopping immigration without a guaranteed job
No access to benefits for 4 years (as like non eu visas, have to support themselves / be sponsored to come here)
Payments to EU stopping and being used for UK (rather than being in place for 2+ years)

I also find it ironic (and being polite) that already, Cornwall, one of the largest receivers of EU aid, voted out, and now they are demanding the EU subsidy is replaced by the UK taxpayer. Great example of biting the hand that feeds you!

Not looking forward to the next few years, as pension fund already looking shaky, and as a PAYE taxpayer, paying a hell of a lot of tax each year, and never claiming anything (in 37 years of work) I am sure to be paying for whatever happens.

The votes went that way, so now let's get on with it and get out ASAP so we can start planning for the future and trying to make Britain great again.


----------



## rustyintegrale

Shug750S said:


> I also find it ironic (and being polite) that already, Cornwall, one of the largest receivers of EU aid, voted out, and now they are demanding the EU subsidy is replaced by the UK taxpayer. Great example of biting the hand that feeds you!


As is Wales.

Unbelievable lack of foresight.


----------



## Dash

I think it's disgusting suggesting that our grand parents who died fighting in Europe for the freedom and stability of our neighbours wouldn't want to be a part of a closer Europe.

But quite frankly emotional and political perspective from 60 years ago before the existence of the EU is irrelevant.

As we told Scottish voters, we're stronger together. We have more power and influence being in the club instead of sitting on the side lines waving flags.


----------



## John-H

This thread, this national debate, does seem to bring out the character in people.

What we see in others now highlights what divides us as a nation. We are a fractured and broken society thrown into opposition with emotions continuing to lead us apart.

These divisions will continue to be highlighted for as long as we do not have solutions to the problems we have just created and solutions will not come from emotion as it is emotion which has got us into this position and will only serve to keep us here.

Meanwhile the problems remain and more are being highlighted as news brings them to us.

To solve the problems we need to use our brains and come up with a plan. It's a pity we didn't have the intelligence to do this before taking a decision to change everything.


----------



## Spandex

Spaceman10 said:


> O wow now name calling, i just love a good debate when the loser has to lower them selfs to name calling lol
> What wrong don't you like the true lol.
> It a shame one day you will wake up and see what going on in the real world lol
> Again train leaving at plate form one if you did not like the result lol
> Sinking ship across the water, run you can join it before it goes down lol lol lol


Well thanks to you and you're Idiocracy friends, I'm on a sinking ship anyway.

You clearly love to look back at your grandparents generation as something to be proud of - so ironic then, that future generations will curse you and everyone else who voted us into an economic wasteland for decades. I wonder how many of the Leave campaigns promises have to be broken before you realise just how stupid you've been.


----------



## Spandex

leopard said:


> Exactly,that's why I suggested the remain lot have sore feet...
> They've been treading sour grapes longer than advisable lol.
> 
> I'd go one further and state shut the door to all migration and pull the aid budget until we stabilise,then reconsider what suits our economy to what skills we need on a points basis.It is ridiculous to consider that anybody can come over and settle due to the physical size of our country.


Always good when you have to explain your 'jokes'.. :wink:

I love these 'our country is full' arguments. Let's look at the physical size, seeing as you singled it out. *Less than 2.5%* of our country is built on, and that figure includes roads, not just actual buildings. We're not short on space by any possible measurement.

But if overcrowding (rather than racism) is your concern, why aren't you concerned with the birth rate - reducing this would have a much bigger impact than stopping immigration? It could halt or even reverse population growth, and have an even greater impact on schools.


----------



## rustyintegrale

John-H said:


> To solve the problems we need to use our brains and come up with a plan. It's a pity we didn't have the intelligence to do this before taking a decision to change everything.


I agree.

But it's a pity the whole referendum campaign on both sides was so full of lies and shoddily run. With so many important questions unanswered, they had a duty as representatives of their respective camps, to present their arguments truthfully and factually. To simply deny a claim by your opposite as untrue is not good enough. Show us why.

Both sides seemed content to just hammer home a pre-agreed campaign message which was exposed by anyone inquisitive enough to force the campaigners off-piste. The general quality of responses in these instances was lamentable, exposing massive shortcomings then glossed over by clever manipulation designed to get the debate back 'on message'.

I think it was deceitful, dishonest and a sham. To expect the British people to choose sides on the basis of emotion and turn the whole thing into a protest vote was nothing short of disgraceful, and ultimately extremely dangerous for our country.

This is precisely why I do not trust British politics. Few politicians seem capable of looking beyond their own ambition. Frankly, I don't want that kind of individual representing me under the guise of government.


----------



## ZephyR2

I think this explains how our relationship with Europe works .....




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1141233072615883


----------



## John-H

rustyintegrale said:


> John-H said:
> 
> 
> 
> To solve the problems we need to use our brains and come up with a plan. It's a pity we didn't have the intelligence to do this before taking a decision to change everything.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree.
> 
> But it's a pity the whole referendum campaign on both sides was so full of lies and shoddily run. With so many important questions unanswered, they had a duty as representatives of their respective camps, to present their arguments truthfully and factually. To simply deny a claim by your opposite as untrue is not good enough. Show us why.
> 
> Both sides seemed content to just hammer home a pre-agreed campaign message which was exposed by anyone inquisitive enough to force the campaigners off-piste. The general quality of responses in these instances was lamentable, exposing massive shortcomings then glossed over by clever manipulation designed to get the debate back 'on message'.
> 
> I think it was deceitful, dishonest and a sham. To expect the British people to choose sides on the basis of emotion and turn the whole thing into a protest vote was nothing short of disgraceful, and ultimately extremely dangerous for our country.
> 
> This is precisely why I do not trust British politics. Few politicians seem capable of looking beyond their own ambition. Frankly, I don't want that kind of individual representing me under the guise of government.
Click to expand...

I agree. As I've said, it was like two out of control barristers with no judge to direct the jury.

If you were buying double glazing you'd by law have a cooling off period in which you could change your mind to protect you from sharp sellers. I am sure, even now at this early stage, just as we are seeing the deceit being exposed and only some of the consequences looming, if the referendum was re-run the result would be completely different.


----------



## leopard

Spandex said:


> leopard said:
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly,that's why I suggested the remain lot have sore feet...
> They've been treading sour grapes longer than advisable lol.
> 
> I'd go one further and state shut the door to all migration and pull the aid budget until we stabilise,then reconsider what suits our economy to what skills we need on a points basis.It is ridiculous to consider that anybody can come over and settle due to the physical size of our country.
> 
> 
> 
> Always good when you have to explain your 'jokes'.. :wink:
> 
> I love these 'our country is full' arguments. Let's look at the physical size, seeing as you singled it out. *Less than 2.5%* of our country is built on, and that figure includes roads, not just actual buildings. We're not short on space by any possible measurement.
> 
> But if overcrowding (rather than racism) is your concern, why aren't you concerned with the birth rate - reducing this would have a much bigger impact than stopping immigration? It could halt or even reverse population growth, and have an even greater impact on schools.
Click to expand...

Of course,cut down on immigration and you cut down the birth rate, I would have thought that was a given.I'm a little bit disappointed you've glossed over this one 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/606926 ... ecord-high


----------



## Spandex

I don't need to gloss over it. It's a tiny percentage of the population. It statistically glosses over itself. You see this is where you risk sounding like a racist, because you can't claim that your main concern is overcrowding if you then focus only on foreigners. The most effective way (as I said) would be to reduce the birth rate and getting rid of imigrants wouldn't do that by any vaguely noticeable amount - so why do you _really_ want to get rid of them?


----------



## ZephyR2

I understand that birth rates nationally are going down however due to the large number of immigrants moving to live here 3 form entry at primary schools has now become commonplace and many schools are having to built new extensions or new schools to accommodate the additional numbers. This has been going on for about 10 years with the primary schools and now secondary schools are having to address the same issues.


----------



## leopard

Spandex said:


> I don't need to gloss over it. It's a tiny percentage of the population. It statistically glosses over itself. You see this is where you risk sounding like a racist, because you can't claim that your main concern is overcrowding if you then focus only on foreigners. The most effective way (as I said) would be to reduce the birth rate and getting rid of imigrants wouldn't do that by any vaguely noticeable amount - so why do you _really_ want to get rid of them?


You obviously haven't read the article thoroughly enough.

27% of all babies born in the UK were to a foreign mother.Not a tiny percentage as you have stated.


----------



## Spandex

ZephyR2 said:


> I understand that birth rates nationally are going down however due to the large number of immigrants moving to live here 3 form entry at primary schools has now become commonplace and many schools are having to built new extensions or new schools to accommodate the additional numbers. This has been going on for about 10 years with the primary schools and now secondary schools are having to address the same issues.


But that's not a physical overcrowding problem. That just comes down to funding, and as many independent studies have shown, migrants are net contributors or, at worst, it breaks even. So the only reason why we don't have sufficient facilities for education (or health for that matter) must be because the government is under-funding them.


----------



## Spandex

leopard said:


> Spandex said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't need to gloss over it. It's a tiny percentage of the population. It statistically glosses over itself. You see this is where you risk sounding like a racist, because you can't claim that your main concern is overcrowding if you then focus only on foreigners. The most effective way (as I said) would be to reduce the birth rate and getting rid of imigrants wouldn't do that by any vaguely noticeable amount - so why do you _really_ want to get rid of them?
> 
> 
> 
> You obviously haven't read the article thoroughly enough.
> 
> 27% of all babies born in the UK were to a foreign mother.Not a tiny percentage as you have stated.
Click to expand...

Well, I said it was a tiny percentage of the population, not of the number of births but regardless you've just proved that reducing immigration would be the least effective way of reducing overcrowding. So, why single them out?


----------



## Dash

Given that Cameron has changed his stance and not triggered Article 50. Who will?

Do you think Boris or Gove will enact it, knowing that will be the end for them come election?


----------



## leopard

Spandex said:


> ZephyR2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I understand that birth rates nationally are going down however due to the large number of immigrants moving to live here 3 form entry at primary schools has now become commonplace and many schools are having to built new extensions or new schools to accommodate the additional numbers. This has been going on for about 10 years with the primary schools and now secondary schools are having to address the same issues.
> 
> 
> 
> But that's not a physical overcrowding problem. That just comes down to funding, and as many independent studies have shown, migrants are net contributors or, at worst, it breaks even. So the only reason why we don't have sufficient facilities for education (or health for that matter) must be because the government is under-funding them.
Click to expand...

It's one of the same,just different choice diction used by yourself.

Anyone that isn't blinkered to a left wing political view can see that more immigration equals more overcrowding and services suffer.You can't keep throwing money at this,it needs to be managed.


----------



## Shug750S

Dash said:


> Given that Cameron has changed his stance and not triggered Article 50. Who will?
> 
> Do you think Boris or Gove will enact it, knowing that will be the end for them come election?


And then you have to throw the SNP's Westminster MP's into the mix. All of whom will be unemployed if UK brexits and Scotland remains as a separate country or leaves UK and applies as a new entrant. The SNP MPs are now a bit like turkeys voting for Christmas if they vote to leave the EU.

Surely as an MP you are elected to represent the views of your constituents, who by a sizeable majority voted to remain, in the case of the SNP MPs.

The triggering of Article 50 would be by the (new) PM after a vote to do so in the commons. It would only need a small number of disaffected Labour or Tory remain MPs, possibly going with the wishes of their local electorate in the case of those areas who wanted remain.
Based on data on demographics and voting I would guess that majority of MPs were remain (apart from the obvious ones visibly going leave) but sure some will argue otherwise...

Could possibly start a new civil war...


----------



## DTH

It's all over bar the shouting and name calling........

I'm literally grinning whilst reading the comments from some of you. Several times I've penned rebuttals to the quite frankly rude and obnoxious comments, but then I decided not to bother - I suppose remain voters venting at people on here feels slightly better than screaming at a mirror because they didn't get the result they wanted. This is done. I'm seeing nothing but venting here. [smiley=argue.gif]


----------



## Dash

I would hope that we are above violence on both sides. Whatever happens it's going to mean massive upheaval in our government.

Genuine Brexiters will be very angry if the referendum result is ignored. And a large number of remainers are seriously concerned about the rise of intolerance and the far right.


----------



## John-H

There are 100 people signing per second and already the petition is over 3,215,858 - the biggest ever.

The interesting point is when the petition reaches 17,410,742 and exceeds the out vote which may only take a couple of days especially if growth is exponential - and everybody tells their friends to pass it on!

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

The referendum last Thursday can't be changed retrospectively in law BUT was only advisory. It's not mandatory. It can be ignored or re-run if parliament decides.

MPs won't ignore a big enough mandate given 70% of them favour EU membership anyway and they can see the storm clouds looming over jobs and the economy. They've just got to be persuaded to get over their own personal ambitions and see the bigger picture - the country.

An early general election is also on the cards and you don't have to be that shrewd to see what will feature in the rescue plan. The Liberal Democrats have already said they would campaign on taking the UK back into the EU. They'd win my vote on that single issue. Other MPs in other parties will also see this swing in popular opinion. Nicola Sturgeon is saying her MPs will veto the necessary UK legislation - which requires a full Act of Parliament through the commons, Lords and committee stages to pass before article 50 is invoked. At the very least we'll be back in the single market.

The more immediate issue is whether we want to lose our current rebates and opt outs. If we go back into the single market or the EU as a full member, having first left we won't have them any more. But MPs know we need the single market to keep the economy going.

The most sensible thing if we want to keep our benefits and prevent chaos and decline is to sign the petition, create the mandate, lobby your MP to delay exit, pass on the message - use our brains!

Idividual problems can be sorted out incrementally. We don't have the time or enough civil servants to sort out all the problems all at once and re-create the economic system and framework. Having a change of mind is by far the easier option and the shock to the world we have created will make the EU more open to reform to avoid similar issues in future.

Brain-in not Eu-motion-out!


----------



## Spandex

leopard said:


> It's one of the same,just different choice diction used by yourself.
> 
> Anyone that isn't blinkered to a left wing political view can see that more immigration equals more overcrowding and services suffer.You can't keep throwing money at this,it needs to be managed.


27% of births isn't 'one and the same' as 27% of the population...

It's nothing to do with political view, it's simple maths. If people, no matter where they come from, put in more than they use then by definition we can afford to look after them (hint: that's the 'use' bit).


----------



## leopard

Spandex said:


> leopard said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's one of the same,just different choice diction used by yourself.
> 
> Anyone that isn't blinkered to a left wing political view can see that more immigration equals more overcrowding and services suffer.You can't keep throwing money at this,it needs to be managed.
> 
> 
> 
> 27% of births isn't 'one and the same' as 27% of the population...
> 
> It's nothing to do with political view, it's simple maths. If people, no matter where they come from, put in more than they use then by definition we can afford to look after them (hint: that's the 'use' bit).
Click to expand...

I don't know what the percentage of the " birthable age " is in the UK, but by definition it's a higher percentage than that based on the UK as a whole,so it's more than you're making it out not to be and as a side point we can't afford to look after them all as is testament to the lack of funding everywhere regardless of what you think about the net migration contribution.

Three hundred thousand + extra per year isn't tenable.



John-H said:


> There are 100 people signing per second and already the petition is over 3,215,858 - the biggest ever.
> 
> The interesting point is when the petition reaches 17,410,742 and exceeds the out vote which may only take a couple of days especially if growth is exponential - and everybody tells their friends to pass it on!
> 
> https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215
> 
> The referendum last Thursday can't be changed retrospectively in law BUT was only advisory. It's not mandatory. It can be ignored or re-run if parliament decides.
> 
> MPs won't ignore a big enough mandate given 70% of them favour EU membership anyway and they can see the storm clouds looming over jobs and the economy. They've just got to be persuaded to get over their own personal ambitions and see the bigger picture - the country.
> 
> An early general election is also on the cards and you don't have to be that shrewd to see what will feature in the rescue plan. The Liberal Democrats have already said they would campaign on taking the UK back into the EU. They'd win my vote on that single issue. Other MPs in other parties will also see this swing in popular opinion. Nicola Sturgeon is saying her MPs will veto the necessary UK legislation - which requires a full Act of Parliament through the commons, Lords and committee stages to pass before article 50 is invoked. At the very least we'll be back in the single market.
> 
> The more immediate issue is whether we want to lose our current rebates and opt outs. If we go back into the single market or the EU as a full member, having first left we won't have them any more. But MPs know we need the single market to keep the economy going.
> 
> The most sensible thing if we want to keep our benefits and prevent chaos and decline is to sign the petition, create the mandate, lobby your MP to delay exit, pass on the message - use our brains!
> 
> Idividual problems can be sorted out incrementally. We don't have the time or enough civil servants to sort out all the problems all at once and re-create the economic system and framework. Having a change of mind is by far the easier option and the shock to the world we have created will make the EU more open to reform to avoid similar issues in future.
> 
> Brain-in not Eu-motion-out!


Let it go John,it's over :lol:


----------



## DTH

John-H said:


> There are 100 people signing per second and already the petition is over 3,215,858 - the biggest ever.
> 
> The interesting point is when the petition reaches 17,410,742 and exceeds the out vote which may only take a couple of days especially if growth is exponential - and everybody tells their friends to pass it on!
> 
> https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215


Some glaring inconsistencies are coming to light upon examining the data contained within the petition. :lol:

I'd also like to applaud John for a well reasoned and calm post in amongst the sea of angst-ridden personal attacks.


----------



## John-H

The total was cut and pasted at 12:30pm. The idea is to provide a mandate and for people to engage their brain.

Nigel Farage said before the referendum that if the result was 52/48 to Remain he would seek another referendum.


----------



## DTH

Second EU referendum petition investigated for fraud.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-e ... m-36634407


----------



## John-H

That may explain the shift in numbers but it still continues to register the strength of disaffection with the result.


----------



## bhoy78

Would have thought that most people commenting on here are well off, don't have to live in squalor, stay in nice area's and don't have to fight for a minimum wage zero hour contract job in glorified sweat shops.

Recently drove through an area of Glasgow where there were gangs of around 50 on every street corner, was a real eye opener and apparently the police don't move them on as it's part of their culture to congregate this way. I would say which nationality they were but if I did I guess I would be branded racist like others have been on this thread. It is saying something about the violence/crime etc that happens in these area's when the Glasgow neds have gave up their territory :lol:

Anyway I can understand why people voted to leave as they hoped it would stop this mass influx and also rightly or wrongly believe that we should use our public funds to help people in this country first before spending it elsewhere.

Personally I hope the EU as a whole now collapses as if it doesn't I think the snp will bend over and get royally shafted to join Europe and I can see us up here having to spend Euro's very soon.


----------



## jamman

Gangs of 50 on every street corner ? seriously

I will file that along with the £100m a week the leave campaign are going to plough into the NHS (NOT)


----------



## Spandex

leopard said:


> I don't know what the percentage of the " birthable age " is in the UK, but by definition it's a higher percentage than that based on the UK as a whole,so it's more than you're making it out not to be and as a side point we can't afford to look after them all as is testament to the lack of funding everywhere regardless of what you think about the net migration contribution.
> 
> Three hundred thousand + extra per year isn't tenable.


You can keep repeating your point, but it doesn't change the logic. If immigrants are net contributors, then tohey are paying for the education of their children and their use of hospitals. That's the actual definition of net contributor - they pay less than they cost. So, it is a complete nonesense to claim that we can't afford the level of immigration. If our schools or hospitals are incapable of handling the size of the population then the only possible explanation is that the government is underfunding them.

So we can afford to look after them, because they've paid their taxes just like all the British people who we can afford to look after. We can physically fit them in because we've managed to fit 65 million people in only 2.5% of the country. So let's ask again - what is it specifically about immigrants that you don't like?


----------



## Spandex

bhoy78 said:


> Would have thought that most people commenting on here are well off, don't have to live in squalor, stay in nice area's and don't have to fight for a minimum wage zero hour contract job in glorified sweat shops.


It's probably true that the remain voters were probably more likely to be in better paid jobs, going by the polling data. But it's wrong to assume this meant they voted selfishly to improve their position and screw over the lower paid. I know that people voted to leave because they wanted to 'take back control' after years of being ignored and marginalised, but they've not taken any control at all - they've just handed control to a different bunch of political elite who don't care about them. On top of that they've probably triggered a recession and who do you think will be hurt the most by the austerity measures that causes? That's right, it's the lower paid sections of the population. The turkeys have voted for Christmas.


----------



## jamman

Spandex said:


> The turkeys have voted for Christmas.


As much as Spandex normally annoys me we have common ground here and this is my quote of the year, it will not be beaten an absolute classic!

PS It's fact that the immigrants put in more than they take out so this side of the argument is redundant.


----------



## leopard

Spandex said:


> leopard said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know what the percentage of the " birthable age " is in the UK, but by definition it's a higher percentage than that based on the UK as a whole,so it's more than you're making it out not to be and as a side point we can't afford to look after them all as is testament to the lack of funding everywhere regardless of what you think about the net migration contribution.
> 
> Three hundred thousand + extra per year isn't tenable.
> 
> 
> 
> You can keep repeating your point, but it doesn't change the logic. If immigrants are net contributors, then tohey are paying for the education of their children and their use of hospitals. That's the actual definition of net contributor - they pay less than they cost. So, it is a complete nonesense to claim that we can't afford the level of immigration. If our schools or hospitals are incapable of handling the size of the population then the only possible explanation is that the government is underfunding them.
> 
> So we can afford to look after them, because they've paid their taxes just like all the British people who we can afford to look after. We can physically fit them in because we've managed to fit 65 million people in only 2.5% of the country. So let's ask again - what is it specifically about immigrants that you don't like?
Click to expand...

Horse-dead-flog come to mind.

Are you labouring the point in the hope I will answer the question in a tirade of xenophobic expletives for you to retort some left wing jibber jabber about all brexit people being the same per chance ? :roll:

I've already explained why I don't agree with the levels of immigration,just read the last few threads.


----------



## bhoy78

Spandex said:


> bhoy78 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Would have thought that most people commenting on here are well off, don't have to live in squalor, stay in nice area's and don't have to fight for a minimum wage zero hour contract job in glorified sweat shops.
> 
> 
> 
> It's probably true that the remain voters were probably more likely to be in better paid jobs, going by the polling data. But it's wrong to assume this meant they voted selfishly to improve their position and screw over the lower paid. I know that people voted to leave because they wanted to 'take back control' after years of being ignored and marginalised, but they've not taken any control at all - they've just handed control to a different bunch of political elite who don't care about them. On top of that they've probably triggered a recession and who do you think will be hurt the most by the austerity measures that causes? That's right, it's the lower paid sections of the population. The turkeys have voted for Christmas.
Click to expand...

I'm not saying that remain voters voted selfishly or tried to screw over the lower paid. My point was purely that most on here are better off and stay in better area's. Although they might read about occasional problems with migrants (some not all migrants, not tarring everyone with the same brush there is bad in every culture) they don't have to live with it daily, feel intimidated or witness some of what goes on first hand. More out of sight out of mind situation.

I don't know enough about the policies that were in place for immigration but its just a shame they couldn't have been tightened up as others have said on this thread as obviously people's feelings on this has been one of the main reasons for the leave vote. Who know's if our policies will be any better under the new system only time will tell.

End of the day the people have spoken, we will just need to wait and see what happens next.


----------



## fut1a

If the government or the EU would have done something about the number of people coming over here then we would still be in the EU. They didn't, so the majority of people that this is effecting voted out.

These people are seeing their towns, villages changed for the worst, unfortunately. How many people on here saying that these people are shortsighted or even implying that they are racist are actually experiencing the town/village they were brought up in being transformed. How many of you are seeing the local factories that used to employ the local people in the area now not employing these people because they are advertising for their employees in other countries.

The vast majority of the people that voted out are not racist and have no problem with migration as long as it's controlled migration. You cannot have vast numbers of people moving into an area taking the jobs/housing/public services without those people getting peeved off. If you lived in one of these areas would you like it. If these people were threatening your children's chances of getting a job would you still say let them come. This is what has been happening this is why people are peeved off.

My reasons for voting out were for the reasons above but like I said in an earlier post. My wife cannot walk the dog in our local park because of the drunken migrants that congregate in there. Would you still think it was OK if your wife or child felt unsafe going to your local park.

Oh I know I am a disgrace and you're ashamed to be British when your fellow countrymen have these views :roll:


----------



## cheechy

This thread for me does show quite clearly that we have as a nation have lurched to the right in a big way. Just look at labour and Corby for an example of this.

indeed middle ground as it was is now looked as as left.

We need to be wary, very wary and look hard at what we're saying but just ourselves but to future generations - irrespective of votes cast from last week.

I'm not aiming this at anyone in particular.


----------



## jamman

NickG and myself live in Spalding which is a stones throw from Boston and also had the largest "out" vote in the whole
country.

I firmly believe its the older generation that has caused this, young people I know and have spoken to in the area just aren't as blinkered or scared by a few Polish men with short haircuts.... it's a joke and also wasn't what the vote was meant to be about but older people's prejudices and the like of The Sun have caused this [email protected] of a result.

Now I'm seeing anti Polish hate leaflets being left at Polish houses, what next boycot the shops, ship them all out or better still make them all live and work in one place....

If it wasn't so sad it would be a joke.


----------



## Shug750S

Spandex said:


> We can physically fit them in because we've managed to fit 65 million people in only 2.5% of the country. So let's ask again - what is it specifically about immigrants that you don't like?


I live in outer London, and the problem seems that the vast majority of new arrivals want to live in the 2.5% of the country that is already congested. More and more cars round here with Slovakian, Polish, Ch. Rep, Lithuanian, plates. I was in the highlands of Scotland a few weeks ago, driving from Elgin down to Balmoral. What a great drive, great scenery and no cars or people for miles. Problem is the new arrivals don't want to live in the middle of nowhere, they want to live in London, Manchester, Glasgow and the other big cites that are already overcrowded.

Also note the comment about Spalding, and a few polish men. Not round here, I shop in my local Tesco and I am the minority. Hardly hear anyone speaking English in the local high street.


----------



## cheechy

Sorry was also going to add...more and more stories talking about deportation and "send them home"

Suspect the leave vote has given some of our far right friends the belief that they now have the right to do this...again reinforcing the lurch right.


----------



## Spandex

Shug750S said:


> I live in outer London, and the problem seems that the vast majority of new arrivals want to live in the 2.5% of the country that is already congested. More and more cars round here with Slovakian, Polish, Ch. Rep, Lithuanian, plates. I was in the highlands of Scotland a few weeks ago, driving from Elgin down to Balmoral. What a great drive, great scenery and no cars or people for miles. Problem is the new arrivals don't want to live in the middle of nowhere, they want to live in London, Manchester, Glasgow and the other big cites that are already overcrowded.
> 
> Also note the comment about Spalding, and a few polish men. Not round here, I shop in my local Tesco and I am the minority. Hardly hear anyone speaking English in the local high street.


That's not just new arrivals, it's everyone. Jobs tend to focus around the built up areas, so people do too.

For about 15 years I lived in a very Polish part of London - many had come there during the war as refugees, and that carried onto the present day. I actually liked hearing different languages and accents every day, but honestly, who cares what language I hear on the high street?

I now live outside London in the countryside and yes, there's bugger all traffic but there's bugger all jobs too so I'm commuting 1.5hrs each way into London to work.


----------



## John-H

And yet again the debate here, like the debate prior to the referendum is being taken over by race and what we think about new arrivals having children etc.

Why is nobody talking about the massive elephant in the room which is far far bigger than all of that?

The economy will have a much bigger effect on all our lives. The UK is about to break up and nobody has mentioned where we are going to put Trident which will cost many £billions to re-locate. Why does nobody think these things through before having a protest vote or vote about lesser issues that can be dealt with without creating chaos? We are heading for economic disaster and some foreign person having a beer in the park is more important apparently. Well Ok perhaps we are all not experts on the economy but why then we're we given this vote?


----------



## leopard

It's only been three days and you're sounding like Lance Corporal Jones,John


----------



## Spandex

fut1a said:


> If you lived in one of these areas would you like it.


I did live in an area with very high immigration. London has a higher proportion of foreigners than any other region of the country. And not just a bit higher - 3 times higher than the next highest in the list, and about 20 times higher than, for example, the North East.

The problem isn't the foreigners, it's your government. There are jobs and money in London (not for everyone, but it's there) and suddenly no one cares about immigrants anymore. If the government listened to people in poorer regions and made an effort to help growth there, guess what? You wouldn't have a problem with immigrants either. Because they're not really causing any of the major problems that affect you, despite what the newspapers tell you every day.

By voting to leave the EU, you've just made your problem worse. Immigration probably won't go down, but even if it did, the government still won't care about you and to make matters worse they'll have less money than before so less money will head out to the underdeveloped regions.

The only good thing that might come from all this crap is that after a few years outside the EU, leave voters might eventually realise it wasn't the immigrants screwing them after all.


----------



## Spandex

leopard said:


> Are you labouring the point in the hope I will answer the question in a tirade of xenophobic expletives for you to retort some left wing jibber jabber about all brexit people being the same per chance ? :roll:
> 
> I've already explained why I don't agree with the levels of immigration,just read the last few threads.


No, I'm labouring the point because I know that your inability to answer (without sounding xenophobic) speaks volumes.

And no, you didn't answer why you're focussing on the impact of immigrants, when there are clearly more effective ways of reducing overcrowding. The implication being, your primary concern isn't reducing the number of people in the UK, it's reducing the number of foreigners specifically.


----------



## YELLOW_TT

Spandex said:


> so ironic then, that future generations will curse you and everyone else who voted us into an economic wasteland for decades. .


As from this statement you must have some method of seeing in to the future next time you have your crystal ball our get next Saturday's winning lotto numbers for me


----------



## DTH

YELLOW_TT said:


> Spandex said:
> 
> 
> 
> so ironic then, that future generations will curse you and everyone else who voted us into an economic wasteland for decades. .
> 
> 
> 
> As from this statement you must have some method of seeing in to the future next time you have your crystal ball our get next Saturday's winning lotto numbers for me
Click to expand...

I already pointed this out - it didn't go down well :?

To be fair though - he did offer me some unicorns and talking squirrels - so that's a win right there. (Sorry - another win) :lol:


----------



## Spandex

YELLOW_TT said:


> Spandex said:
> 
> 
> 
> so ironic then, that future generations will curse you and everyone else who voted us into an economic wasteland for decades. .
> 
> 
> 
> As from this statement you must have some method of seeing in to the future next time you have your crystal ball our get next Saturday's winning lotto numbers for me
Click to expand...

I'm just glad to see you have a backup plan in place for when the economy tanks... Maybe you should give Boris a call and let him know about it - it can't be any worse than his 'plans'.. :wink:


----------



## leopard

Spandex said:


> The implication being, your primary concern isn't reducing the number of people in the UK, it's reducing the number of foreigners specifically.


One of them :wink:


----------



## John-H

leopard said:


> It's only been three days and you're sounding like Lance Corporal Jones,John


And after three days you still can't come up with a plan :roll:

When the elephant sits on you you'll end up looking like a rug you know that don't you :lol:


----------



## 3TT3

I thought you guys voted to leave ,this is just a discussion on why?

However :
Since Wales as a whole voted to leave, Plaid cymru can hardly complain that England is the enemy 
altho I did see something about some party member calling for another referendum once the EU exit terms are known .
Another joke?

Brussels seems to have told yer woman in Scotland to go away.."you want to join the EU ?,have your referendum again,leave the UK this time and weel discuss your membership as the new country of Scotland then" . Pretty much the same as if Scotland had voted to leave the UK 2 years ago.

The whole apres democratic vote thing and not liking the outcome smacks a bit of Tommy Cooper.
"I wasnt ready" 'I didnt expect it" "you gotta give me a chance" " make lots of noise,change the terms and weel vote again" :lol:


----------



## leopard

John-H said:


> leopard said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's only been three days and you're sounding like Lance Corporal Jones,John
> 
> 
> 
> And after three days you still can't come up with a plan :roll:
> 
> When the elephant sits on you you'll end up looking like a rug you know that don't you :lol:
Click to expand...

 :lol:

You do realise by the time that happens,we'll be trading with the Chinese and Indian market by then...they like high end exotics


----------



## GoTeamGb2012

I personally feel so sad for what this country has become. I'm not even remotely angry in all honesty, just disappointed in ourselves. I can't quite understand the level of hatred directed towards each other and how far right we have become as a nation. It seems to go against the very ideals i personally thought this country stood for. Maybe i was wrong, i dunno...

Maybe in time Leave will be a good thing for the UK. All i know right now it seems like a very bad thing. Problem is you can't just erase the fear, xenophobia and hatred displayed by some towards EU migrants who are here. I spoke to a Polish couple yesterday who were in tears having just been told to 'F*ck off back home'. Couldn't help but shed a tear myself as my heart sank. While i can't comment on everyones experience or grievances both real or not, i can't help but wonder why and how on earth we got here.

Maybe i am naive and living in a bubble, who knows but this is not the Great Britain i remember, nor the one i long for. Eventually we will get there, maybe in a reformed EU or in a newly forged Britain where hatred, fear and intolerance are not welcome. One day....


----------



## Spandex

leopard said:


> You do realise by the time that happens,we'll be trading with the Chinese and Indian market by then...they like high end exotics


I don't think India or China are that impressed with us right now:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36632934



> Huang Yiping, a member of China's central bank monetary policy committee, said Brexit could mark a "reversal of globalisation", which would be "very bad" for the world.





> Adi Godrej, chairman of India's Godrej Group ... said it was surprising the UK had taken a decision "which is going to be so negative for it from an economic point of view".
> He added that it would affect Indian companies which had set up in Britain as a gateway to the EU.
> "It will be bad because they will have to establish themselves in other parts of Europe."


----------



## jamman

GoTeamGb2012 said:


> I personally feel so sad for what this country has become. I'm not even remotely angry in all honesty, just disappointed in ourselves. I can't quite understand the level of hatred directed towards each other and how far right we have become as a nation. It seems to go against the very ideals i personally thought this country stood for. Maybe i was wrong, i dunno...
> 
> Maybe in time Leave will be a good thing for the UK. All i know right now it seems like a very bad thing. Problem is you can't just erase the fear, xenophobia and hatred displayed by some towards EU migrants who are here. I spoke to a Polish couple yesterday who were in tears having just been told to 'F*ck off back home'. Couldn't help but shed a tear myself as my heart sank. While i can't comment on everyones experience or grievances both real or not, i can't help but wonder why and how on earth we got here.
> 
> Maybe i am naive and living in a bubble, who knows but this is not the Great Britain i remember, nor the one i long for. Eventually we will get there, maybe in a reformed EU or in a newly forged Britain where hatred, fear and intolerance are not welcome. One day....


Superb post and sentiments


----------



## DPG

jamman said:


> GoTeamGb2012 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I personally feel so sad for what this country has become. I'm not even remotely angry in all honesty, just disappointed in ourselves. I can't quite understand the level of hatred directed towards each other and how far right we have become as a nation. It seems to go against the very ideals i personally thought this country stood for. Maybe i was wrong, i dunno...
> 
> Maybe in time Leave will be a good thing for the UK. All i know right now it seems like a very bad thing. Problem is you can't just erase the fear, xenophobia and hatred displayed by some towards EU migrants who are here. I spoke to a Polish couple yesterday who were in tears having just been told to 'F*ck off back home'. Couldn't help but shed a tear myself as my heart sank. While i can't comment on everyones experience or grievances both real or not, i can't help but wonder why and how on earth we got here.
> 
> Maybe i am naive and living in a bubble, who knows but this is not the Great Britain i remember, nor the one i long for. Eventually we will get there, maybe in a reformed EU or in a newly forged Britain where hatred, fear and intolerance are not welcome. One day....
> 
> 
> 
> Superb post and sentiments
Click to expand...

Agreed


----------



## John-H

DPG said:


> jamman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GoTeamGb2012 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I personally feel so sad for what this country has become. I'm not even remotely angry in all honesty, just disappointed in ourselves. I can't quite understand the level of hatred directed towards each other and how far right we have become as a nation. It seems to go against the very ideals i personally thought this country stood for. Maybe i was wrong, i dunno...
> 
> Maybe in time Leave will be a good thing for the UK. All i know right now it seems like a very bad thing. Problem is you can't just erase the fear, xenophobia and hatred displayed by some towards EU migrants who are here. I spoke to a Polish couple yesterday who were in tears having just been told to 'F*ck off back home'. Couldn't help but shed a tear myself as my heart sank. While i can't comment on everyones experience or grievances both real or not, i can't help but wonder why and how on earth we got here.
> 
> Maybe i am naive and living in a bubble, who knows but this is not the Great Britain i remember, nor the one i long for. Eventually we will get there, maybe in a reformed EU or in a newly forged Britain where hatred, fear and intolerance are not welcome. One day....
> 
> 
> 
> Superb post and sentiments
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Agreed
Click to expand...

Well said.


----------



## Dash

Agreed TeamGB.

I have immediate and short term fears about the economy (25 years). After that we could well do better, we'll never really know.

My biggest gripe is the pack of lies and promises that have been used to coerce a result. This petition bouncing about is being investigated for fraud - how about the leave campaign being investigated for fraudulently suggesting all this money for the NHS.

Of course the educated knew that it was all a pack of lies, but that doesn't really help when so many people lap it up. The biggest change I'd like to see now is regulation of how campaigns can make statements and how the media reports opinion.

And that leaves my biggest worry. I found out this week how much the far right has risen in the UK. The intolerance of other human beings and hatred that is consuming so many people, being ever fueled by abhorrent media.


----------



## A3DFU

YELLOW_TT said:


> Spandex said:
> 
> 
> 
> so ironic then, that future generations will curse you and everyone else who voted us into an economic wasteland for decades. .
> 
> 
> 
> As from this statement you must have some method of seeing in to the future next time you have your crystal ball our get next Saturday's winning lotto numbers for me
Click to expand...

Andy,
Why would you want to deny your children the possibility to travel and work in different EU countries if they so wish?
My grandson may not have the chance to work in the country of his choice if article 50 gets called.

On a different (or same) matter:
We enjoyed over 70 years of peace thanks to Europe working together. That's a mega achievement! Is this really worth throwing away?


----------



## A3DFU

jamman said:


> GoTeamGb2012 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I personally feel so sad for what this country has become. I'm not even remotely angry in all honesty, just disappointed in ourselves. I can't quite understand the level of hatred directed towards each other and how far right we have become as a nation. It seems to go against the very ideals i personally thought this country stood for. Maybe i was wrong, i dunno...
> 
> Maybe in time Leave will be a good thing for the UK. All i know right now it seems like a very bad thing. Problem is you can't just erase the fear, xenophobia and hatred displayed by some towards EU migrants who are here. I spoke to a Polish couple yesterday who were in tears having just been told to 'F*ck off back home'. Couldn't help but shed a tear myself as my heart sank. While i can't comment on everyones experience or grievances both real or not, i can't help but wonder why and how on earth we got here.
> 
> Maybe i am naive and living in a bubble, who knows but this is not the Great Britain i remember, nor the one i long for. Eventually we will get there, maybe in a reformed EU or in a newly forged Britain where hatred, fear and intolerance are not welcome. One day....
> 
> 
> 
> Superb post and sentiments
Click to expand...

I'll second that.

And upsettingly (well upsetting for me) I'm already a target of hatred against foreigners by one of my neighbours. A neighbour of 31 years. A neighbour who used to come to my BBQ parties. A neighbour who's house I'm currently looking after while she's on holiday.

Great (British) times


----------



## mjhamilton

On an amusing and lighter note 

It's ok everyone - The Sun which has been a staunch supporter of leaving the EU forever and the flagship paper for BoJo the Clown and Mr F***rage has just released an article explaining to its readers how they are now going to be in the s*** and much worse off

They are not amused

Some of the comments are brilliant - it's almost as if people on either side voted for all the wrong reasons

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/articl ... WySvafrAVZ


----------



## John-H

This one is also interesting...



> If Boris Johnson looked downbeat yesterday, that is because he realises that he has lost.
> 
> Perhaps many Brexiters do not realise it yet, but they have actually lost, and it is all down to one man: David Cameron.
> 
> With one fell swoop yesterday at 9:15 am, Cameron effectively annulled the referendum result, and simultaneously destroyed the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who cost him so much anguish, not to mention his premiership.
> 
> How?
> 
> Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear: he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. Whether that was scaremongering or not is a bit moot now but, in the midst of the sentimental nautical references of his speech yesterday, he quietly abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor.
> 
> And as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legislation to be torn up and rewritten ... the list grew and grew.
> 
> The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction.
> 
> The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50?
> 
> Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders?
> 
> Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-manoeuvred and check-mated.
> 
> If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over - Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession ... broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.
> 
> The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.
> 
> When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was "never". When Michael Gove went on and on about "informal negotiations" ... why? why not the formal ones straight away? ... he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.
> 
> All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign
> http://indy100.independent.co.uk/articl ... bJhqBql0VZ


----------



## 3TT3

There seems to be a fair amount of post vote accusatory flaming(even if semi hidden) that ALL those who voted leave are bigoted right wing fascist Oswald Mosely types and all those who didnt are "the good people" .
Even tho I'm sure everyone here respects the right of people to vote whatever way they wish ?
The vote was democratic.
Yet those who "lost" seem unwilling to accept that.Kinda strange from the home of democracy.
Brutal reprehensible honesty:I think there was relief from some pro remain sections that the poor woman was murdered by a lunatic .
There Ive said it.

I personally(since the vote) dont think the outcome will change, taking everything into consideration.
Here(Southern Ireland) I felt sure it would, Im talking about the 2 times Ireland had a rerun of votes for European further integration treaties.
Think carrot and stick with a bit of guilt trip thrown in... Squeeze the little guy till he gets it right.

Recent history has something to do with it.. a whole lot.
The remain voters no.1 problem(I think) was the promised referendum by labour on a european treaty.This was cancelled(I forget if it was Blair or Brown).."it wasnt a good time".. This wouldnt have involved a brexit if defeated merely a halt to further integration.. so as it turned out, any who were disenchanted with a lack of a voice on Europe .. take it up the nether regions.
It also( I think ) ruined any chance of labour influencing in a + way a vote to remain, not Jeremy.

The attitude on here.. and in the media since the vote is that Cameron initiated the brexit thing solely to resolve internecine squabbling in the Tory party, but this referendum has been proposed an awfull long time.
Prior to the Scottish independence referendum , and prior to the last UK general election .
Yes there has been some mention of taking votes from UKIP with the promise, but my personal opinion is it was a commitment that worked too well for "My legacy, by David Cameron".

Im sure hes not a thicko  but prev govt ,he was insulated by the liberals.
I think the wording was something like "if the conservative party is returned to power there will be a referendum on exiting EU"
With that he was locked in.If the Cons had been returned to the same Govt as previously,ie a Con/lib coalition He would have had 2 referendum outs..
1.Hey guys I meant if we were elected on our own
2.The liberals would have blocked it.

In that sense ,and who can say at this remove , was not the Conservative victory in the last general election a prerun of this EU exit referendum? and the exit vote was already predetermined simply by voting conservative.40 years with no people decisions at all on Britains role in Europe.
Perhaps what is xenophobically or condescendingly known as "the great unwashed " are actually just the "great unbrainwashed"

Still a lil strange to have leave or not as the thread heading 

Maybe have a look here?
Edit viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1318594&p=7171930#p7171930


----------



## Trouble4

> Still a lil strange to have leave or not as the thread heading


even more strange is a US over the pond old guy who started the thread :? 8) :lol:

as this vote affects and effects the Globe ........

and as the US comes closer to a new Commander and Chief

Clinton will just be same old same old and a little down hill......

Trump will be wanting to take giant steps (hopefully in the right direction) People here are tired of all the
bull crap and are willing to take a chance........

and at 320 million people and no idea """The fact of the matter is we know how many people own cars, we know the identity of every car in the United States &#8230; Yet we don't know who owns guns, and we don't know how many guns there are in the United States," est. 300 million to 1 billion guns in US ...... that is why no other Country wants to invade us and with Trump I could see other Countries wanting to... whether they do or not is unforeseen

Do hope UK and US can make a fair deal for both of us...

Stop the high import charges that the UK has and go to a straight set tax % as I hope the US goes to....

[smiley=book2.gif] [smiley=book2.gif] [smiley=book2.gif] 8)


----------



## Shug750S

Best plan so far (copied from a share on Facebook)

Right. F*** this. We're ALL up s*** creek and we need a paddle. Now, not in three months.

Fellow Remain voters: Enough already. Yes, we're all p***ed off but navel gazing ain't gonna help. Not all 17 million Leave voters can possibly be racist northern pensioners without an O level to their name. Maybe they have a point about this quitting the EU thing? Maybe not. Whatever, we are where we are and no amount a whinging is gonna change that. Allegedly we're the intelligent ones, so get your thinking caps on.

Leave voters. Well done. Good game. We hear you. Now you need to get stuck in to the aftermath and not just p*** off back to Wetherspoons. (Just banter, t***s!). And the first person to say they "want their country back" gets deported to f***ing Gibraltar. OK?

Politicians.

David. F*** off. Shut the door behind you. Now.

George. You may be a t*** but you're our t***. Plus you know the passwords for our Junior Savers account. Get your calculator. Drop the face-like-a-slapped-ass routine. You're on.

Boris. Sorry mate. That photo of you abseiling by your scrotum over the London Olympics while waving a Union Jack can't ever be un-taken. Plus, you'll never be able to appear on Question Time again without some sturdy Glaswegian nurse asking where the f*** her 350 million quid is. Not only will she have a very good point, she'll be wearing a T shirt that shows you gurning in front of that f***ing bus! No captains hat for you I'm afraid.

Theresa. You're in charge love. Get the biggest shoulder pads you've got. We need Ming The Merciless in drag and you'll scare the s*** out of 'em.

Nicola. Yep. Fair cop. You probably could get us on a technicality, as could London. But we f***ing love shortbread. And oil. And to be honest you're probably the best politician we've got, so we need you on side. Sort your lot out and we promise never to mention that Jimmy Krankie thing again (although it is pretty uncanny) and we'll make you a Dame once we're sorted. Bring Ruth Davidson. She kicks ass.

Opposition party. We'll need one. Someone take Jeremy and John back to the British Legion Club where you found them. Take Nigel as well. Give back their sandals, buy them a pint, then go to Heathrow and collect David Milliband. F*** it. Lets gets Ed Balls as well. He keeps George on his toes. I think he works on the lottery kiosk at Morrisons now?

Oh. And Mark Carney. Give him a knighthood and tell him to keep that s*** coming. We definitely need more of that good shit!

Everyone set? Right. Hold the Easyjet. We're going to Brussels and this ain't no hen party.


----------



## A3DFU

:lol: :lol:

Excellent post. I'd laugh if it wasn't so serious; hang on - I did laugh despite my family falling apart already as my younger son will get a German passport and move to Germany if article 50 will be enacted as he sees no professional future for himself in an isolated England.


----------



## Dash

I think the main gripe of the remainers is that it wasn't democracy in action - it's influential media in action. There is a proportion of the leave population that believe that despite the risks to the economy Britain will be better alone - Scotland leaving, a recession and all the other things that people are worrying about are the cost for a better future.

Unfortunately, a large number of leave voters that were expecting millions to go into an NHS, things will be better from day one, free trade will be guranteed etc. Some of these people are outspoken about their regret, we know this to be an issue - just see the article above about Sun readers.

This result wasn't the voice of the people (either way, 34% is minority, just the winning minority). It was largely the voice of the right-wing media, with an unhealthy dose of racists and a small number of people who are genuine to the vote.


----------



## Dash

View from Wales: What has the EU ever done for us?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... are_btn_fb


----------



## mighTy Tee

Dash said:


> This result wasn't the voice of the people (either way, 34% is minority, just the winning minority).


100% of the people had a voice, the fact only 72% choice to use that voice is irrelevant, the fact is those who chose to vote produced a majority for brexit. Fact!

This is democracy in action - Now get on with life (or emigrate - but dont expect to come back if post Brexit UK is a success).


----------



## j8keith

Sorry to read peoples reactions Dani, I find this most sad and totally unforgiveable. Some people who are gifted with limited intelligence do not seem to get it, we are all foreigners to someone. My Grandfather on my Mothers side was German, my Grandmother on my Fathers side was Welsh and I was born within the sound of "Bow Bells", so perhaps I too will be classed as a foreigner.


----------



## Spandex

Dash said:


> I think the main gripe of the remainers is that it wasn't democracy in action - it's influential media in action. There is a proportion of the leave population that believe that despite the risks to the economy Britain will be better alone - Scotland leaving, a recession and all the other things that people are worrying about are the cost for a better future.
> 
> Unfortunately, a large number of leave voters that were expecting millions to go into an NHS, things will be better from day one, free trade will be guranteed etc. Some of these people are outspoken about their regret, we know this to be an issue - just see the article above about Sun readers.
> 
> This result wasn't the voice of the people (either way, 34% is minority, just the winning minority). It was largely the voice of the right-wing media, with an unhealthy dose of racists and a small number of people who are genuine to the vote.


Exactly. You can't have democracy without information. Democracy doesn't mean "my misinformed view is just as important as your informed view".

Voting is a right, but it's not a duty. If you don't understand the consequences of whatever you're voting for, then you shouldn't vote, because you're not just making a personal choice, you're making a choice for everyone in the country. If you're going to make decisions that affect 65 million people then I think you need to have done a good amount of research before you do it, and 'research' doesn't mean reading a tabloid newspaper.


mighTy Tee said:


> 100% of the people had a voice, the fact only 72% choice to use that voice is irrelevant, the fact is those who chose to vote produced a majority for brexit. Fact!


It's not irrelevant. It's very very relevant, because the country has to be able to move forward and whether you like it or not there is 66% of the country who actively choose to leave the EU and the government still need to take those views into account. 'Winning' the referendum is not going to be carte blanche for Leave voters to get everything they want.


mighTy Tee said:


> This is democracy in action - Now get on with life (or emigrate - but dont expect to come back if post Brexit UK is a success).


Why wouldn't someone expect to come back?? Sigh...


----------



## mighTy Tee

Spandex said:


> Dash said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think the main gripe of the remainers is that it wasn't democracy in action - it's influential media in action. There is a proportion of the leave population that believe that despite the risks to the economy Britain will be better alone - Scotland leaving, a recession and all the other things that people are worrying about are the cost for a better future.
> 
> Unfortunately, a large number of leave voters that were expecting millions to go into an NHS, things will be better from day one, free trade will be guranteed etc. Some of these people are outspoken about their regret, we know this to be an issue - just see the article above about Sun readers.
> 
> This result wasn't the voice of the people (either way, 34% is minority, just the winning minority). It was largely the voice of the right-wing media, with an unhealthy dose of racists and a small number of people who are genuine to the vote.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly. You can't have democracy without information. Democracy doesn't mean "my misinformed view is just as important as your informed view".
> 
> Voting is a right, but it's not a duty. If you don't understand the consequences of whatever you're voting for, then you shouldn't vote, because you're not just making a personal choice, you're making a choice for everyone in the country. If you're going to make decisions that affect 65 million people then I think you need to have done a good amount of research before you do it, and 'research' doesn't mean reading a tabloid newspaper.
> 
> 
> mighTy Tee said:
> 
> 
> 
> 100% of the people had a voice, the fact only 72% choice to use that voice is irrelevant, the fact is those who chose to vote produced a majority for brexit. Fact!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's not irrelevant. It's very very relevant, because the country has to be able to move forward* and whether you like it or not there is 66% of the country who actively choose to leave the EU* and the government still need to take those views into account. 'Winning' the referendum is not going to be carte blanche for Leave voters to get everything they want.
> 
> 
> mighTy Tee said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is democracy in action - Now get on with life (or emigrate - but dont expect to come back if post Brexit UK is a success).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why wouldn't someone expect to come back?? Sigh...
Click to expand...

Where did you get 66% from? Because that is an even bigger majority!

The vote was simple in or out. Or put another way "maintain the status quo" or "change it". If you didnt hold an opinion then surely the status quo is your vote? Those who did not vote have chosen not to vote, if they had an opinion they would have made the effort to vote, it was not as if there wasnt enough publicity about it. They can not now complain about the outcome.



> Why wouldn't someone expect to come back?? Sigh...


This is like saying "everyone can do all the hard work, but I will take the glory for it" - every office has at least one of these people, are you one of them glory hunters that reaps the reward that others have sown, but abandons ship and blames everyone else for your own failures?


----------



## drjam

Spandex said:


> Democracy doesn't mean "my misinformed view is just as important as your informed view".


That's exactly what it means, I'm afraid. 
Democracy means everyone gets a chance to give their view, however they came to it and however stupid/revolting/unrealistic or whatever else it may be. 
It's not perfect, but the alternative is that someone (who?) gets to choose whose view matters and whose doesn't.

Personally I think referendums are a cop out by politicians without the balls to make decisions on complex issues, then present what they'd do to the people and then stand for election on it.
But we are where we are, people have been asked and you can't now try to reverse or ignore what they've said. Longer uncertainty and more social division and political bickering is that last thing we need. Take the hit, look forward and make the best of it.

Incidentally, the leave vote has a bigger mandate than the vote for any government in my lifetime. If we're really worried about democracy, this referendum is the wrong target; how is it that governments (both right and left) have consistently been able to do exactly what they want despite being voted for by only just over a third of the population? Indeed to me that's now the real danger of this referendum: that the wishes of 52% of the people will now be implemented in the interests and with the priorities of a government that was voted in by only 37%.


----------



## Spandex

mighTy Tee said:


> Where did you get 66% from? Because that is an even bigger majority!


You're right, I hadn't calculated it properly. I just used the figure Dash posted. It's actually 62.7% of registered voters didn't vote to leave, not 66%.



mighTy Tee said:


> The vote was simple in or out. Or put another way "maintain the status quo" or "change it". If you didnt hold an opinion then surely the status quo is your vote? Those who did not vote have chosen not to vote, if they had an opinion they would have made the effort to vote, it was not as if there wasnt enough publicity about it. They can not now complain about the outcome.


It's really simple. 62.7% of registered voters didn't actively choose to leave the EU. Most of them definitely wanted to stay in the EU and the rest of them, who knows? It's pointless trying to second guess their motives for not voting. But we still have to take their existence into account - like I said, the Leave voters will have to accept a lot of compromises because of this. You don't have to believe me, you just have to wait and see. No government is going to risk alienating a potential 62% of voters.


mighTy Tee said:


> This is like saying "everyone can do all the hard work, but I will take the glory for it" - every office has at least one of these people, are you one of them glory hunters that reaps the reward that others have sown, but abandons ship and blames everyone else for your own failures?


Gotcha, What you meant was "nothing will stop you coming back, but I'll moan about it". I thought you were suggesting something should stop them doing it.


----------



## DTH

Spandex said:


> Democracy doesn't mean "my informed view is just as important as your informed view".


Astonishing arrogance - were you never told 'No' as a child?

Oh - and I've corrected you.


----------



## Von Twinzig

Shug750S said:


> Best plan so far (copied from a share on Facebook)
> 
> Right. F*** this. We're ALL up s*** creek and we need a paddle. Now, not in three months.
> 
> Fellow Remain voters: Enough already. Yes, we're all p***ed off but navel gazing ain't gonna help. Not all 17 million Leave voters can possibly be racist northern pensioners without an O level to their name. Maybe they have a point about this quitting the EU thing? Maybe not. Whatever, we are where we are and no amount a whinging is gonna change that. Allegedly we're the intelligent ones, so get your thinking caps on.
> 
> Leave voters. Well done. Good game. We hear you. Now you need to get stuck in to the aftermath and not just p*** off back to Wetherspoons. (Just banter, t***s!). And the first person to say they "want their country back" gets deported to f***ing Gibraltar. OK?
> 
> Politicians.
> 
> David. F*** off. Shut the door behind you. Now.
> 
> George. You may be a t*** but you're our t***. Plus you know the passwords for our Junior Savers account. Get your calculator. Drop the face-like-a-slapped-ass routine. You're on.
> 
> Boris. Sorry mate. That photo of you abseiling by your scrotum over the London Olympics while waving a Union Jack can't ever be un-taken. Plus, you'll never be able to appear on Question Time again without some sturdy Glaswegian nurse asking where the f*** her 350 million quid is. Not only will she have a very good point, she'll be wearing a T shirt that shows you gurning in front of that f***ing bus! No captains hat for you I'm afraid.
> 
> Theresa. You're in charge love. Get the biggest shoulder pads you've got. We need Ming The Merciless in drag and you'll scare the s*** out of 'em.
> 
> Nicola. Yep. Fair cop. You probably could get us on a technicality, as could London. But we f***ing love shortbread. And oil. And to be honest you're probably the best politician we've got, so we need you on side. Sort your lot out and we promise never to mention that Jimmy Krankie thing again (although it is pretty uncanny) and we'll make you a Dame once we're sorted. Bring Ruth Davidson. She kicks ass.
> 
> Opposition party. We'll need one. Someone take Jeremy and John back to the British Legion Club where you found them. Take Nigel as well. Give back their sandals, buy them a pint, then go to Heathrow and collect David Milliband. F*** it. Lets gets Ed Balls as well. He keeps George on his toes. I think he works on the lottery kiosk at Morrisons now?
> 
> Oh. And Mark Carney. Give him a knighthood and tell him to keep that s*** coming. We definitely need more of that good shit!
> 
> Everyone set? Right. Hold the Easyjet. We're going to Brussels and this ain't no hen party.


As remain voter, this has to be the most insightful thing I have read since the Big Bang. Brilliant. Also made me laugh out loud, something I also have not done since 05:00 last Thursday. Well done on both fronts! [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

VT


----------



## leopard

mighTy Tee said:


> Dash said:
> 
> 
> 
> This result wasn't the voice of the people (either way, 34% is minority, just the winning minority).
> 
> 
> 
> 100% of the people had a voice, the fact only 72% choice to use that voice is irrelevant, the fact is those who chose to vote produced a majority for brexit. Fact!
> 
> This is democracy in action - Now get on with life (or emigrate - but dont expect to come back if post Brexit UK is a success).
Click to expand...

Well said.

Note to the disenfranchised lot who didn't vote....you snooze,you lose


----------



## John-H

Spandex said:


> Dash said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think the main gripe of the remainers is that it wasn't democracy in action - it's influential media in action. There is a proportion of the leave population that believe that despite the risks to the economy Britain will be better alone - Scotland leaving, a recession and all the other things that people are worrying about are the cost for a better future.
> 
> Unfortunately, a large number of leave voters that were expecting millions to go into an NHS, things will be better from day one, free trade will be guranteed etc. Some of these people are outspoken about their regret, we know this to be an issue - just see the article above about Sun readers.
> 
> This result wasn't the voice of the people (either way, 34% is minority, just the winning minority). It was largely the voice of the right-wing media, with an unhealthy dose of racists and a small number of people who are genuine to the vote.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly. You can't have democracy without information. ...
Click to expand...

There was insufficient education of the public of the facts and consequences. The campaigns were full of misinformation - lies about costs and multiple spending of the same EU contribution saving and not enough discussion of the far bigger economic effect which we are now seeing with $2 trillion wiped off stocks and share values in a single day, companies moving out of London to the EU mainland due to the threat of loss of "passporting", two thirds of businesses predicting downturn with cancelled investments and likely job losses and the opposing impossibility of controlling EU free movement of people if we try to retain access to the single market.

The breakup of the United Kingdom with the loss of Scotland and Northern Ireland and the threat to Trident with the costs of its relocation are now of major concern.

Much of this was predicted by some but we were told to "ignore the experts" as they were "scaremongering" and instead an emotional and xenophobic frenzy was encouraged centred on immigrants most of whom are net contributors to the UK economy.

It was like two battling out of control barristers in court with no judge to keep order and direct the jury as to the facts of the case and the law. The public have been given a major disservice.

If we were buying double glazing then legislation ensuring a "cooling off" period gives us a chance to change our minds. With something so important as the dire effect on the UK economy now clear it is utterly perverse that the government appears to be ploughing on regardless to an EU exit. The turkeys may have voted for Christmas but a responsible government should not allow this. The referendum was only an opinion poll - not a binding decision.


----------



## Shug750S

Well said John H.

Problem is the turkeys have voted, and now we face a potentially difficult few years.

However the vote was the vote and now the only way I can see this outcome changing is if there's a general election and one party runs with the express manifesto of not withdrawing from the EU. They could then (possibly) legitimately claim to have a mandate based on fact rather than misinformation.

Would be very interesting to see the outcome, but will the current government have to nerve to call an election over this. If they did I can see an even bigger turnout as a result, and possibly a different outcome. (Head down, tin hat on, as leave start the reasons why this is invalid)


----------



## leopard

John-H said:


> The turkeys may have voted for Christmas but a responsible government should not allow this. The referendum was only an opinion poll - not a binding decision.


I am sure you would be stating this if the vote had gone the other way :roll:


----------



## DTH

> Exactly. You can't have democracy without information. ...


And this is the rub - how do you know what Information I based my vote on?

Totally amazed - and I mean totally amazed at the attitudes displayed by the Bitter remain voters in here, it's like being back at school - castigating the Leave voters by casting doubt on their ability to make an informed decision is incredibly arrogant, bordering on Childish.

You know nothing about me - simply repeatedly saying all Leave voters are stupid is not the way forward. And yes - some of you certainly are Wordsmiths of a fashion - but make no mistake, calling people dumb, in however long-winded and pleading a way is only reflecting badly on you. Name calling is name calling no matter how you dress it up.


----------



## John-H

leopard said:


> John-H said:
> 
> 
> 
> The turkeys may have voted for Christmas but a responsible government should not allow this. The referendum was only an opinion poll - not a binding decision.
> 
> 
> 
> I am sure you would be stating this if the vote had gone the other way :roll:
Click to expand...

Nigel Farage said back in May before the referendum that if the result was 52-48 to Remain then he would demand a second referendum. Go growl at him :wink:


----------



## Spandex

DTH said:


> Spandex said:
> 
> 
> 
> Democracy doesn't mean "my informed view is just as important as your informed view".
> 
> 
> 
> Astonishing arrogance - were you never told 'No' as a child?
> 
> Oh - and I've corrected you.
Click to expand...

Me? Not my idea, I'm afraid. I just paraphrased a well accepted understanding of democracy.

If I held a gun to someone's head and told them what to vote for, would that be democracy?
What if I kept them in a locked room and fed them carefully selected information before they voted?
And what if I fed them that information without them realising, and without confining them?

The first two are clearly not democracy as we know it, but the last one has become accepted as the norm even though the end result is no different from the second one.

This is what happened in the referendum. People have been fed a diet of anti-EU propaganda for decades by a powerful group of media moguls with an agenda. And what happened when nearly every single economic expert, nearly every security expert, every world leader, every one who you would normally expect to know about these things said it was a bad idea? Gove just tells you not to bother listening to experts. No explanation _why_ you shouldn't (because he didn't have one). The biggest WTF moment in the campaign so far and no one in the leave camp batted an eyelid because the press told them it was all ok, and belittled the 'experts' at every opportunity.

So no, I don't think this is really democracy. I don't think most general elections are really democracy in action either. Even the ones that happen to go 'my way'. This isn't sour grapes over the referendum result particularly - lies and manipulation are par for the course with modern politics in this country - but when people get screwed over by lies in a general election they only have to suffer the consequences for a few years. This time we'll be screwed for an entire generation before we fix the mess it's going to create.


----------



## leopard

John-H said:


> leopard said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> John-H said:
> 
> 
> 
> The turkeys may have voted for Christmas but a responsible government should not allow this. The referendum was only an opinion poll - not a binding decision.
> 
> 
> 
> I am sure you would be stating this if the vote had gone the other way :roll:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nigel Farage said back in May before the referendum that if the result was 52-48 to Remain then he would demand a second referendum. Go growl at him :wink:
Click to expand...

Hypothetical question:

Another referendum is anounced.

People can see a potential injustice and a swing to remain. Because of this more people dig their feet in and majority favours Brexit even more favourably say 65/35.

Would you still disagree ? Or are you saying we should be brow beaten via further referendums until it sits well with the losers ?


----------



## DTH

John-H said:


> The turkeys may have voted for Christmas but a responsible government should not allow this. The referendum was only an opinion poll - not a binding decision.


And you think this would end calmly? Really? You want your result no matter the cost? I thought you were passionate not thoughtless. And I'm no Turkey - Wind your neck in.


----------



## mighTy Tee

Spandex said:


> It's really simple. 62.7% of registered voters didn't actively choose to leave the EU.


You would make a bloody good politician 62.7% of registered voters didnt actively choose to stay either. Even is you assume 50% of non voters wanted to stay (you can argue what you want but statistically it should be 52% exit 48% remain), then remain lost, fair and square, stop complaining.

It is negativity which is driving markets down, an elite few in the financial sector who are more interested in making the 6+ figure end of year bonuses than the welfare of any economy that are the problem now not the people who voted against your will.


----------



## mighTy Tee

leopard said:


> John-H said:
> 
> 
> 
> The turkeys may have voted for Christmas but a responsible government should not allow this. The referendum was only an opinion poll - not a binding decision.
> 
> 
> 
> I am sure you would be stating this if the vote had gone the other way :roll:
Click to expand...

Exactly, as I see it a number of people on this forum prefer to live under a dictatorial regime, rather that the democracy that our ancestors (and I mean all Europeans not just Brits) over the past millennium have fought to achieve and maintain. Maybe they should consider moving to North Korea where they can learn to appreciate democracy, assuming they last that long!


----------



## Spandex

mighTy Tee said:


> Spandex said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's really simple. 62.7% of registered voters didn't actively choose to leave the EU.
> 
> 
> 
> You would make a bloody good politician 62.7% of registered voters didnt actively choose to stay either. Even is you assume 50% of non voters wanted to stay (you can argue what you want but statistically it should be 52% exit 48% remain), then remain lost, fair and square, stop complaining.
> 
> It is negativity which is driving markets down, an elite few in the financial sector who are more interested in making the 6+ figure end of year bonuses than the welfare of any economy that are the problem now not the people who voted against your will.
Click to expand...

As I said in my post, who knows what the non-voters would prefer. I'm not assuming anything about their motives (unlike you in your previous post). All I know is that only 37.3% of the registered voters actively chose to leave the EU and the government can't afford to act like everyone wants to leave just because the leave group won the vote.

To be clear, I'm not saying leave didn't win the vote. I'm not saying we won't leave the EU. I'm just saying you might find you don't get anywhere near all the things you wanted from this because the government has to keep everyone happy, not just the 'winners'.


----------



## mighTy Tee

Spandex said:


> mighTy Tee said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spandex said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's really simple. 62.7% of registered voters didn't actively choose to leave the EU.
> 
> 
> 
> You would make a bloody good politician 62.7% of registered voters didnt actively choose to stay either. Even is you assume 50% of non voters wanted to stay (you can argue what you want but statistically it should be 52% exit 48% remain), then remain lost, fair and square, stop complaining.
> 
> It is negativity which is driving markets down, an elite few in the financial sector who are more interested in making the 6+ figure end of year bonuses than the welfare of any economy that are the problem now not the people who voted against your will.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> As I said in my post, who knows what the non-voters would prefer. I'm not assuming anything about their motives (unlike you in your previous post). All I know is that only 37.3% of the registered voters actively chose to leave the EU and the government can't afford to act like everyone wants to leave just because the leave group won the vote.
> 
> To be clear, I'm not saying leave didn't win the vote. I'm not saying we won't leave the EU. I'm just saying you might find you don't get anywhere near all the things you wanted from this because the government has to keep everyone happy, not just the 'winners'.
Click to expand...

Fact though 100% of registered voters had every opportunity to vote, they didnt even have to go to the polling station, they could have used the postal voting system. They chose not to vote which is their prerogative and they can not complain about the outcome.

(for the pedantic there was probably a few who wanted to vote but circumstances contrived against them (i.e. unexpected illness), however this small number would not have affected the outcome)


----------



## Spandex

mighTy Tee said:


> Exactly, as I see it a number of people on this forum prefer to live under a dictatorial regime, rather that the democracy that our ancestors (and I mean all Europeans not just Brits) over the past millennium have fought to achieve and maintain. Maybe they should consider moving to North Korea where they can learn to appreciate democracy, assuming they last that long!


The referendum has always been a non-binding vote. Whoever won, that wouldn't change. That was a fact before the vote and it's a fact now. Pointing it out doesn't suddenly make this a dictatorship.

And bear in mind that politicians are voted in as representatives, not delegates. It's an important distinction. They're not there to do as we tell them, they're there to do what they think is best for the country and if we don't agree with them then we have to vote in a different government.


----------



## rustyintegrale

mighTy Tee said:


> It is negativity which is driving markets down...


Well hello and welcome to the real world!

It is not negativity at all. We're constantly fed the message that the markets fear uncertainty. Negativity and uncertainty are not the same thing.

If the bankers and the politicians can't plot a route forward what hope in hell have the rest of us got?

We're all facing uncertainty and that breeds negativity.

Despite repeated attempts by people questioning both camps before the vote, we were fed a litany of lies and untruths whilst the real questions remained unanswered. Even now as reality sets in and some hard figures are coming out, I am amazed by the number of people who originally voted 'leave' say they may have voted differently had they they known that Cornwall and Wales benefitted from the EU.

Why were these facts ignored? Why was the Brexit battle bus allowed to display a blatant untruth for days after it was proven to be incorrect? How can anyone be expected to make an informed decision based on the information given.

In my opinion, this whole referendum has been shown to be close to fraudulent and dumbed down to the extent that people placed their votes on hearsay, lies, perceived truths and public bar politics.

It is an utter disgrace and politicians dare to wonder why they're not trusted. FFS! It's a sham.


----------



## Spandex

mighTy Tee said:


> Fact though 100% of registered voters had every opportunity to vote, they didnt even have to go to the polling station, they could have used the postal voting system. They chose not to vote which is their prerogative and they can not complain about the outcome.
> 
> (for the pedantic there was probably a few who wanted to vote but circumstances contrived against them (i.e. unexpected illness), however this small number would not have affected the outcome)


It's not about them complaining. No one has said they're complaining and I've not seen anything to suggest they are. The point is (still) that *they exist* and the government can't pretend they don't just because they didn't vote in a referendum. The government WILL have to water down what the leave camp want to happen, because they know they can't afford to alienate large sections of the population. Doing so would just mean they would never get re-elected and that's their biggest worry.

I suspect in London there were a decent number of people who missed the polling stations because of the travel chaos on Thursday. Nowhere near enough to swing the vote though. I personally know of one person who didn't get to the polling station, because they ended up having to stay at my place (on the wrong side of London) on Thursday night because they couldn't get home. I almost didn't make it myself - I got there 40 mins before they closed, after a 3hr 45min journey involving 4 trains, 1 taxi and a lift from the only station I could get to in the end.


----------



## John-H

DTH said:


> John-H said:
> 
> 
> 
> The turkeys may have voted for Christmas but a responsible government should not allow this. The referendum was only an opinion poll - not a binding decision.
> 
> 
> 
> And you think this would end calmly? Really? You want your result no matter the cost? I thought you were passionate not thoughtless. And I'm no Turkey - Wind your neck in.
Click to expand...

I didn't think a referendum was a good idea in the first place as the public are unqualified to judge this extremely complex issue with its far reaching consequences. We elect a government to be the experts on our behalf to bring about prosperity - that's their job. This however is an abrogation of the responsibility of government to govern in the country's best interest.

Throwing the decision to the public and then misinforming them of the facts. Telling them to ignore the experts? Does that help understanding? I decided I could see through it when the numbers didn't add up and they clearly didn't have a plan to replace what they were destroying following an exit. That's my opinion and I have explained my reasoning.

I don't have a clue how you came to your opinion and I made no assertion about it. My remarks about the misinformation given to the public are general and based on observation of the reaction and consideration and analysis of key points.

You may be privy to other information I have not considered. Perhaps you could explain how you think we are all now going to be better off and how the economy will work in your opinion? I'm sure it can be discussed in a civilised manner. This may help us all understand how opinions are derived and maybe tell us something new.


----------



## Spandex

Apparently the government is putting together a task force of leading civil servants and private sector experts to work out what the UK will look like outside the EU... So basically, unelected officials and 'experts'.

At least they haven't lost their sense of humour then... :lol:


----------



## jamman

I don't know it could be worse, would you thrust these people

PATHETIC

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-e ... m-36638041


----------



## mighTy Tee

jamman said:


> I don't know it could be worse, would you thrust these people
> 
> PATHETIC
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-e ... m-36638041


Voted in to his current position by the more knowledgeable and intelligent party supporters? :lol:


----------



## John-H

S&P have cut their UK credit rating from AAA to AA and the outlook to negative. This follows Moody's similar downgrade.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36644934


----------



## Spandex

jamman said:


> I don't know it could be worse, would you thrust these people
> 
> PATHETIC
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-e ... m-36638041


To be honest, I completely trust Corbyn. That's not to say I agree with all his policies but, unlike pretty much every other politician out there, he says exactly what he thinks. You can trust what he says, whether you agree with it or not.

If all our politicians were as honest and up front as him, this country would be a much better place to live and we'd be able to trust the parliamentary democracy to deliver what we actually voted for.


----------



## Von Twinzig

If you need any evidence of the way investors are thinking for the medium term........










:?

VT


----------



## John-H

Spandex said:


> Apparently the government is putting together a task force of leading civil servants and private sector experts to work out what the UK will look like outside the EU... So basically, unelected officials and 'experts'.
> 
> At least they haven't lost their sense of humour then... :lol:


That is quite funny but I suspect not to all.


----------



## A3DFU

j8keith said:


> Sorry to read peoples reactions Dani, I find this most sad and totally unforgiveable. Some people who are gifted with limited intelligence do not seem to get it, we are all foreigners to someone. My Grandfather on my Mothers side was German, my Grandmother on my Fathers side was Welsh and I was born within the sound of "Bow Bells", so perhaps I too will be classed as a foreigner.


Thanks for your kind words Keith 

My, as your background, is multinational too: one of my grandfathers was Russian (killed in the first world war), the other granddad was Polish. My Polish granddad moved from Bydgoszcz to Berlin in 1900. My parents were both German.
My Polish granddad taught me Esperanto before I was 10 years old as he always believed in a united Europe 

I guess most people on here are too young to have heard the word Esperanto so here's a link

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=esper ... e&ie=UTF-8


----------



## cheechy

Bottom line for me is this.

Leave got the nod.

Friday morning a plan should have been ready and waiting to roll out reassuring everyone on what the next steps were.

4 days later and all I've seen is a void of leadership, alongside a labour party headed by a guy who looked to me like he sabotaged the labour vote and incapable of holding a very broken Tory party to account.

Much as I completely disagree with the outcome of the vote (I don't think I'll feel the same again about the uk) the reason we are here is that THERE WAS NO PLAN for brexit.

The worst of it was people didn't seem to care. They were told everything would be fine.

What a complete cock up.


----------



## mighTy Tee

There is one thing which everyone can look forward to.....

The duty free booze (and ***) cruise is about to make a come back.


----------



## A3DFU

mighTy Tee said:


> There is one thing which everyone can look forward to.....
> 
> The duty free booze (and ***) cruise is about to make a come back.


And duty free goods will be more expensive to the UK buyer as the same goods are now because of the drop of Sterling. Of course travelling abroad will also be more expensive in the future for the same reason.


----------



## Shug750S

At least the England football team have helped lots of people save money tonight, by getting beaten by Iceland.

No more travel this tournament....

Same headlines tomorrow on front and back pages of the papers :lol:


----------



## John-H

John-H said:


> S&P have cut their UK credit rating from AAA to AA and the outlook to negative. This follows Moody's similar downgrade.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36644934


And following that Fitch has also followed suit:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 06551.html



> The credit ratings agency says it made decision because Britain's vote will have "a negative impact on the UK economy, public finances and political continuity."
> 
> It warns of an "abrupt slowdown in short-term GDP growth" to British businesses.


----------



## A3DFU

John-H said:


> The credit ratings agency says it made decision because Britain's vote will have "a negative impact on the UK economy, public finances and political continuity."
> 
> It warns of an "abrupt slowdown in short-term GDP growth" to British businesses.
Click to expand...

Well there's a big surprise (not!). It was to be expected :?

Interestingly though, Geoffrey Robertson QC, who founded the Doughty Street Chambers, said the act which set up the referendum said "nothing" about its impact, meaning it was "purely advisory".

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 05181.html


----------



## Dash

The referendum shouldn't have happened, but if they must dump internal party politics onto the public then the better question would have to be was there an appetite to leave the EU - making it clear that a leave vote would result in a cross-party workforce on making a plan for a safe exit, which would then go to parliament for a vote if it was feasible.

People would have got to have their say, markets wouldn't have fallen over as it was just assigning the resource to look at the feasibility of it. By the time it got enacted the plan would be clear and nobody would have reason to panic (wouldn't stop uncertainty, but that's different).


----------



## A3DFU

I like the words "from which there will _be_ no going back" .....



> This is likely to make whoever is Prime Minister in September reluctant to start a process *from which there will no going back*.
> 
> Other EU leaders want the process completed quickly because they worry about the damage Brexit will do the whole European project. They fear that allowing it to drag on might encourage movements in other EU states in favour of pulling out. There is also simmering anger at the British decision which makes EU opinion leaders want to tell Britain to get lost.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 05946.html


----------



## Jez xbx

Only just found this thread :-(
We're boned :-(


----------



## John-H

Dash said:


> The referendum shouldn't have happened, but if they must dump internal party politics onto the public then the better question would have to be was there an appetite to leave the EU - making it clear that a leave vote would result in a cross-party workforce on making a plan for a safe exit, which would then go to parliament for a vote if it was feasible.
> 
> People would have got to have their say, markets wouldn't have fallen over as it was just assigning the resource to look at the feasibility of it. By the time it got enacted the plan would be clear and nobody would have reason to panic (wouldn't stop uncertainty, but that's different).


I suspect that's what we'll get now when the taskforce reports. As you say it could have been handled better without angst but would they be believed? I also suspect they needed the global and financial reaction to prove the point too - but perhaps my imagination credits them with too much devious thought and cleverness. Scandalous if true though.


----------



## John-H

Agriculture minister for state Liz Truss said on Farming Today that she favors GM foods and if the UK leaves the EU then farmers will be free to use it.


----------



## Shug750S

Just wondered if Cameron or other UK officials can actually be excluded (legally under EU law) from any EU meetings as the newspapers are suggesting other EU leaders are meeting to discuss brexit.

We haven't left the EU, and the government haven't even indicated our intention to leave the EU, and won't until the PM formally triggers article 50.

Until that point we are still a full member, so presumably have full access (as a full member) to all meetings and still have a vote / veto etc?

Note to leave voters: this is not an attempt to overturn the referendum, just a statement of fact, that until the PM invokes article 50 nothing changes (except of course the £ falls like a stone, share prices around the world drop, in anticipation of article 50 being triggered and our departure...)


----------



## John-H

> David Cameron is to meet European Union leaders for the first time since the UK voted to leave.
> 
> The UK prime minister will discuss the implications of the Brexit vote and the way ahead at an EU summit in Brussels.
> 
> German, French and Italian leaders said on Monday there could be no "formal or informal" talks on a British exit at this stage.
> 
> Meanwhile, Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt has called for a second referendum over the terms of the UK's departure.
> 
> He said the withdrawal process should be delayed until shortly before the next election - meaning a delay until after 2022 at the earliest.
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-e ... m-36647006


----------



## mighTy Tee

As expected - the massive falls artificially brought on by elite traders, in an effort to make their 6 or 7 figure end of year bonuses, appears to have ended as they now profit on their doom in their win win occupation.

http://news.sky.com/story/1718536/pound ... exit-slump


----------



## rustyintegrale

mighTy Tee said:


> As expected - the massive falls artificially brought on by elite traders, in an effort to make their 6 or 7 figure end of year bonuses, appears to have ended as they now profit on their doom in their win win occupation.
> 
> http://news.sky.com/story/1718536/pound ... exit-slump


Calling it an 'occupation' is being kind. It's gambling and anyone can do it. But like most gamblers, there'll be more losers than winners.


----------



## Spandex

mighTy Tee said:


> As expected - the massive falls artificially brought on by elite traders, in an effort to make their 6 or 7 figure end of year bonuses, appears to have ended as they now profit on their doom in their win win occupation.
> 
> http://news.sky.com/story/1718536/pound ... exit-slump


Ended? That's a spectacularly optimistic interpretation of "clawed back *some *ground following two days of turmoil"


----------



## cheechy

OMG - just watched Farage gloating in his address to the Euro parliament. "Who is laughing now?" was his party piece.

If we have this prat anywhere near negotiations we're doomed. All he seems to want to do is rub everyone there up the wrong way. Patronising and insulting and this guy is representing us 

Great start in trying to get a good deal then? [smiley=bomb.gif]


----------



## John-H

cheechy said:


> OMG - just watched Farage gloating in his address to the Euro parliament. "Who is laughing now?" was his party piece.
> 
> If we have this prat anywhere near negotiations we're doomed. All he seems to want to do is rub everyone there up the wrong way. Patronising and insulting and this guy is representing us
> 
> Great start in trying to get a good deal then? [smiley=bomb.gif]


It's a complete travesty that he ever got in there. How tolerant and civilised must they be to put up with his sabotage and uncivilised abuse. Embarrassing and shameful.


----------



## Shug750S

Question for anyone who voted leave. What did you vote for?
To just leave the EU and see what happened.
Or to leave the EU and 
A. stop immigration from the EU
B. slow down immigration and establish similar trade deals to what we have now (and accept we still have to pay a fair chunk to keep them)
C. As B but establish new, better / different trade deals with the EU (define how these would be better/different)
D. Reduce entitlement for immigrants to claim benefits for 4 years (like the deal agreed and about to come in anyway)
E. Leave immigration unchanged 
F. Retain the existing trade relationships and freedom of movement after exit, at no penalty cost to do so
Any combination of the above or something else?

Did everyone who voted leave have the same aims, or are there different wishes?

Just wondering if anyone actually knew what they were voting for.


----------



## Trouble4

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=212815595779058


----------



## cheechy

Shug750S said:


> Question for anyone who voted leave. What did you vote for?
> To just leave the EU and see what happened.
> Or to leave the EU and
> A. stop immigration from the EU
> B. slow down immigration and establish similar trade deals to what we have now (and accept we still have to pay a fair chunk to keep them)
> C. As B but establish new, better / different trade deals with the EU (define how these would be better/different)
> D. Reduce entitlement for immigrants to claim benefits for 4 years (like the deal agreed and about to come in anyway)
> E. Leave immigration unchanged
> F. Retain the existing trade relationships and freedom of movement after exit, at no penalty cost to do so
> Any combination of the above or something else?
> 
> Did everyone who voted leave have the same aims, or are there different wishes?
> 
> Just wondering if anyone actually knew what they were voting for.


Shug - just to correct point D no longer on the table. It was dependant on a remain vote to proceed.


----------



## Shug750S

Cheechy, I realise that, but some of the leave people may still want something similar... You are of course right, that would have come in soon, but now will remain for at least two years until the process is triggered and completed.

Point is did anyone actually know what they were actually voting for?


----------



## cheechy

Nope its gone for good and would have to be agreed as part of any new deal....but get the sentiment of the ask.


----------



## mighTy Tee

To answer why did I vote out, well primarily because a "United States of Europe" run by a federal government of unelected and unaccountable politicians (the MEP elections have little if anything to do with running the EU) with a very biased one size fits all is never going to work.

Witness the 400 year old United Kingdom as a good example, we lost Eire 100 years ago, madam crankie wants Scotland out and Wales has it's nationalist support. Yet here we have 4 like minded countries, common language, relatively similar history, economies etc, but the one size fits all obviously has it's flaws, to rich South East/London v say North East England as an example.

SO now we compare the economies of the EU (ignoring UK) Germany is the dominant economy, the southern and eastern states the poor relations(some still reliant on the horse and cart) and there is no common language or culture. Consequently back in bail out days it was Frau Merkel calling the shots.

What conceited fool thinks 27+ dissimilar countries could survive where the 4 similar UK countries are falling apart?

Also ask the Southampton (and Ghent) Ford workers how they felt when the EU gave Ford a big grant to build the new Ford Transit factory not within the EU but outside the EU in Turkey.

Ask the steel workers how they feel when they loose their jobs because of cheap far East imports (not EU imports) which EU prevent us from preventing.

Then outside of politics, look at the voting trends in the Eurovision Song Contest, nepotism at it's best.

I am all for a European Economic Community, free trade between separate nation states, I am totally against a United States of Europe/Federal Europe Government.

The world has changed, the internet has seen to that, we are now part of a global trading economy, 20 years ago it was difficult to buy direct from China, today I buy a single phone cover from China for pennies via eBay. Europe needs to realise this.

Finally I don't believe Europe can divorce the UK any more that the UK can divorce Europe, trade will continue, if the EU tries to block that then they risk punitive tariffs and, taking our beloved cars as an example, Audi will be priced out of the market opening up the UK to increased sales from China, Korea and Japan. Not having free trade initiatives is not in anybodies interest, least of all the Germans as arguably the most dominant vehicle exporters to the UK they have the most to loose.


----------



## Shug750S

Fair points there. I totally get your one about rich South vs poor North (although with costs and house prices down here it is not as big a differential as some think) and know that this difference is exaggerated if you compare Germany with Greece. The whole EU logic falls apart when you have common policies but totally different tax, benefits and other issues.

Agree we joined the Economic Community which seemed logical, it just morphed over time to the monster it is now.

Maybe we should have reacted years ago, and stayed in the EEC but not got caught up in the EU experiment (as even the Eurocrats call it)


----------



## A3DFU

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/ ... ext_Story1

A young ethnic child age 8, born and raised (so far) in this country had sticky notes with racist remaks plastered all over him in a local school this morning during play time, my teacher friend told me. The children who "did the deed" were English white children.

I've already started to be very aware that I live in a foreign country and try not to engage in conversation with people around me, just like I did 31 years ago when I first moved to England. I can remember the racist remarks I suffered all those years back only too well.
I'll now drink a Scottish whisky to that [smiley=cheers.gif]


----------



## j8keith

A3DFU said:


> http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/ ... ext_Story1
> 
> A young ethnic child age 8, born and raised (so far) in this country had sticky notes with racist remaks plastered all over him in a local school this morning during play time, my teacher friend told me. The children who "did the deed" were English white children.
> 
> I've already started to be very aware that I live in a foreign country and try not to engage in conversation with people around me, just like I did 31 years ago when I first moved to England. I can remember the racist remarks I suffered all those years back only too well.
> I'll now drink a Scottish whisky to that [smiley=cheers.gif]


This is just plainly disgraceful, and brings shame on us all for allowing our society to sink so low. Alas I am not competent to be able to suggest how start to change the mind set of these types of people, but sincerely hope someone can ---- and quickly.


----------



## barry_m2

mighTy Tee said:


> To answer why did I vote out.......


Very well said. I wholeheartedly agree. I voted in but was very borderline and am actually happy with an out vote win.


----------



## barry_m2

A3DFU said:


> http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/ ... ext_Story1
> 
> A young ethnic child age 8, born and raised (so far) in this country had sticky notes with racist remaks plastered all over him in a local school this morning during play time, my teacher friend told me. The children who "did the deed" were English white children.
> 
> I've already started to be very aware that I live in a foreign country and try not to engage in conversation with people around me, just like I did 31 years ago when I first moved to England. I can remember the racist remarks I suffered all those years back only too well.
> I'll now drink a Scottish whisky to that [smiley=cheers.gif]


It's funny how the media dont report on the ethnic on white rasist abuse isn't it!


----------



## leopard

Shug750S said:


> Question for anyone who voted leave. What did you vote for?
> To just leave the EU and see what happened.
> Or to leave the EU and
> A. stop immigration from the EU
> B. slow down immigration and establish similar trade deals to what we have now (and accept we still have to pay a fair chunk to keep them)
> C. As B but establish new, better / different trade deals with the EU (define how these would be better/different)
> D. Reduce entitlement for immigrants to claim benefits for 4 years (like the deal agreed and about to come in anyway)
> E. Leave immigration unchanged
> F. Retain the existing trade relationships and freedom of movement after exit, at no penalty cost to do so
> Any combination of the above or something else?
> 
> Did everyone who voted leave have the same aims, or are there different wishes?
> 
> Just wondering if anyone actually knew what they were voting for.


Simple.

1/ Control immigration.

2/ Make our own laws.

3/ Retain our own money.


----------



## A3DFU

barry_m2 said:


> A3DFU said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/ ... ext_Story1
> 
> A young ethnic child age 8, born and raised (so far) in this country had sticky notes with racist remaks plastered all over him in a local school this morning during play time, my teacher friend told me. The children who "did the deed" were English white children.
> 
> I've already started to be very aware that I live in a foreign country and try not to engage in conversation with people around me, just like I did 31 years ago when I first moved to England. I can remember the racist remarks I suffered all those years back only too well.
> I'll now drink a Scottish whisky to that [smiley=cheers.gif]
> 
> 
> 
> It's funny how the media dont report on the ethnic on white rasist abuse isn't it!
Click to expand...

Just why should there be *any* racist abuse in the first place, please?


----------



## ZephyR2

To answer your very biased question Shug - none of those issues were really important.
Basically, and this seems to be something you have completely missed - the EU is going down the pan. It started going bad after the Eastern Enlargement in 2004 and the prospect of further enlargement is only going to make things worse. Most of the economies within the EU and the Euro are struggling. 
Greece, Ireland, Portugal who were given the bailouts are still in great difficulty and show few signs of turning round their economies. Spain and Italy can't elect stable governments and most of the former Soviet bloc countries are a joke.
There is growing discontent within other parts of the EU particularly in France, Italy and Netherlands with the EU generally.
But take a look at what commentators in other parts of the world are saying about Brexit and the state of the EU to get an impartial viewpoint.

There I've said why I voted out - and I didn't have to mention immigration or questions of race anywhere.
Strikes me the loudest bigots around are in the Remain camp. They are the ones who think they know why those who voted Out did so and are then quick to form judgements upon their ill-informed stereotypical views.
Open your eyes, open your ears and listen, instead of sounding off all time about your preconceived ideas.


----------



## mighTy Tee

A3DFU said:


> http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/ ... ext_Story1
> 
> A young ethnic child age 8, born and raised (so far) in this country had sticky notes with racist remaks plastered all over him in a local school this morning during play time, my teacher friend told me. The children who "did the deed" were English white children.
> 
> I've already started to be very aware that I live in a foreign country and try not to engage in conversation with people around me, just like I did 31 years ago when I first moved to England. I can remember the racist remarks I suffered all those years back only too well.
> I'll now drink a Scottish whisky to that [smiley=cheers.gif]


There is no place for racism (or inverse racism) in the UK, I feel for the small child.

However something as a child I was taught was "sticks and stones will break my bones, but names will never hurt me". Rise above the insults (I took a lot of stick as I was "blessed" with girlie curly blonde hair as a kid - now very happy to have a bald head) and you will be a stronger and better person for that.


----------



## Spandex

mighTy Tee said:


> Also ask the Southampton (and Ghent) Ford workers how they felt when the EU gave Ford a big grant to build the new Ford Transit factory not within the EU but outside the EU in Turkey.


Just to address this point, the EU gave Ford a loan, not a grant. Ford UK also benefited from £450m in loans in 2010 (more than twice the loan used for the Turkish factory) and in 2015 alone the EIB invested 7.8b euros in the UK, so it's not a one way street. Also, and probably most importantly, industry experts have said the UK factory was doomed pretty much as soon as the Turkish factory began making the Transit 10 years ago, so even if Ford hadn't got the loan it's unlikely the UK workers would have been safe.

Fundamentally though, if we weren't members of the EU, they would still have given Ford the loan, and Ford would still have moved production to Turkey to save money. By leaving the EU we are encouraging this to happen more, not less.


----------



## Spandex

mighTy Tee said:


> However something as a child I was taught was "sticks and stones will break my bones, but names will never hurt me". Rise above the insults


Racism isn't an insult that should be 'risen above'. It's not character building.


----------



## mighTy Tee

Spandex said:


> mighTy Tee said:
> 
> 
> 
> However something as a child I was taught was "sticks and stones will break my bones, but names will never hurt me". Rise above the insults
> 
> 
> 
> Racism isn't an insult that should be 'risen above'. It's not character building.
Click to expand...

What is the difference between using the same sentence to tell someone they are ginger against telling someone they are coloured?

Both are insults based on looks and birth genetics.

I am not condoning racism, however sometimes it is better to rise above the insults of ignorant people, after all the insult is a phrase used to illicit a response, from which ignoramus can look to justify further abuse or even initiate violence.


----------



## Shug750S

ZephyR2 said:


> To answer your very biased question Shug - none of those issues were really important.
> Basically, and this seems to be something you have completely missed - the EU is going down the pan. It started going bad after the Eastern Enlargement in 2004 and the prospect of further enlargement is only going to make things worse. Most of the economies within the EU and the Euro are struggling.
> Greece, Ireland, Portugal who were given the bailouts are still in great difficulty and show few signs of turning round their economies. Spain and Italy can't elect stable governments and most of the former Soviet bloc countries are a joke.
> There is growing discontent within other parts of the EU particularly in France, Italy and Netherlands with the EU generally.
> But take a look at what commentators in other parts of the world are saying about Brexit and the state of the EU to get an impartial viewpoint.
> 
> There I've said why I voted out - and I didn't have to mention immigration or questions of race anywhere.
> Strikes me the loudest bigots around are in the Remain camp. They are the ones who think they know why those who voted Out did so and are then quick to form judgements upon their ill-informed stereotypical views.
> Open your eyes, open your ears and listen, instead of sounding off all time about your preconceived ideas.


I was actually undecided and veering towards an out vote, until I found out about the deal to restrict immigration and benefits had been agreed. To me this showed they were listening and trying to work out a solution. I also couldn't see what the leave lobby plan was, and am still waiting to hear that. The stuff in the bus about cash for the NHS being totally wrong (as it seems to have now been confirmed by those who were saying it) didn't help either.

Having seen the hit on sterling since the vote and the potential for job losses if / when the car manufacturers relocate to inside the zone is worrying as that impacts tax revenue.

I wasn't aware I'd thrown and nasty comments (like telling others they were sounding off about preconceived ideas).

To be honest I would be quite happy if the whole EU mess collapsed. But I fear being the first one to jump, as we could get hurt more than the others who stay until it unraveled.

Last post from me on this subject / chain.

Cheers


----------



## cheechy

Yup think this thread has now run its course - and even the one I put in to discuss isn't required.

The vote has happened we know the result and we've had (in the remain camp) a period of mourning to come to terms (which this is for me).

We'll all now just have to roll our sleeves up and hope the government to get their act together and get something in place that stops the rot.


----------



## Spandex

mighTy Tee said:


> What is the difference between using the same sentence to tell someone they are ginger against telling someone they are coloured?
> 
> Both are insults based on looks and birth genetics.
> 
> I am not condoning racism, however sometimes it is better to rise above the insults of ignorant people, after all the insult is a phrase used to illicit a response, from which ignoramus can look to justify further abuse or even initiate violence.


The difference is contextual. People are institutionally discriminated against because of their race and nationality, resulting in lower wages, poorer education, less opportunities, etc and this is the context against which you have to judge racist 'insults'.

Kids would occasionally call me 'lanky' or similar names in school because I was above average height - this was annoying at the time, maybe even upsetting depending on the circumstances, but the aim was to pick anything that made me different and pretend it was a bad thing in order to insult me. There was no actual discrimination against tall people. There was no prejudice. So within that context it was clearly just an insult (and not a very good one at that). Racist comments, however, have to be judged within the context of racism and prejudice as a whole. They're not intended as a simple insult and they shouldn't be treated as one. I think it would be bad for society as a whole if children were taught to just accept racist comments and to 'tough it out'. They should learn to report it and to stand up for people who are victims of racism.

I remember once seeing a discussion on a forum where someone was arguing that calling someone a 'black bastard' isn't really racist because the target of the comment was black (and therefore it was just an accurate description), so really he should just be annoyed because he was called a bastard. This shows why context is everything.


----------



## John-H

I think those were fair questions as they were related to the promises made by the exit campaigners - the inference being; were they related to the reasons exit voters voted the way they did? If they were then they must be feeling let down with the backtracking comments made. Related points analysed here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-e ... m-36641390

If exit voters say those points in dispute and cited as lies and misinformation by remain supporters are not relevant to the reasons they voted exit then that's fair enough and if they explain the other reasons why they voted exit then that helps us all understand their thinking and what they have prioritised as important to them. That's fair enough and they have a right to their opinion.

Where I have an issue is to do with the majorly significant effects on the economy, jobs, society etc which don't seem to be answered here and are almost entirely ignored or dismissed.

It still remains the case that nobody on this thread has produced - (correct me if I'm wrong but I have tried to follow it all) despite me and others asking repeatedly (and none of the major exit campaigners have produced an answer either) - a properly worked out or reasoned economic plan that shows how to gain whatever it is they want but at the same time safeguards the economy and prevents us all spiralling into chaos and decline.

It's a moot point arguing over EU budget saving definitions, how we set points for immigrant entry, feelings about sovereignty or British pride when the whole country becomes a laughing stock and investors, companies and jobs start exiting in droves because we've said are leaving EU. What do you think is most important?

The publicly owned RBS bank lost £8 Billion (share that out), we've been downgraded on our credit rating and warned it will go further due to the uncertainty and negative position we will be putting ourselves in by exiting the EU.

Nobody seems to consider the longer term issues for peace in Europe, with the rise of right wing isolationists and the effect on others - have a read of this:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-36627394


----------



## ZephyR2

John I don't worry too much about the collapse of the pound etc. Financial institutions are a nervous lot and prone to knee jerk reactions. 
What I am more concerned about is the point you make about the rise of right wing extremism across Europe. Not sure where that may be taking us.


----------



## John-H

To war. Nervous currency swings are short term but the decisions on where to place investment are long term and lasting with a domino effect.


----------



## Tangerine Knight

cheechy said:


> OMG - just watched Farage gloating in his address to the Euro parliament. "Who is laughing now?" was his party piece.
> 
> If we have this prat anywhere near negotiations we're doomed. All he seems to want to do is rub everyone there up the wrong way. Patronising and insulting and this guy is representing us
> 
> Great start in trying to get a good deal then? [smiley=bomb.gif]


I've just seen the news it appeared he walked into a barrage of abuse and was continually being heckled and booed. It came across to me that he was only giving as good as he got.


----------



## John-H

Tangerine Knight said:


> cheechy said:
> 
> 
> 
> OMG - just watched Farage gloating in his address to the Euro parliament. "Who is laughing now?" was his party piece.
> 
> If we have this prat anywhere near negotiations we're doomed. All he seems to want to do is rub everyone there up the wrong way. Patronising and insulting and this guy is representing us
> 
> Great start in trying to get a good deal then? [smiley=bomb.gif]
> 
> 
> 
> I've just seen the news it appeared he walked into a barrage of abuse and was continually being heckled and booed. It came across to me that he was only giving as good as he got.
Click to expand...

He has a history of abusing the EU parliament members and I've seen it many times and each time I've felt embarrassed that such a person purports to represent us. He only went there to gloat and cause trouble. They were probably expecting him and I can't blame them for being angry. I only wonder how they've put up with him so far :?


----------



## Tangerine Knight

John-H said:


> Tangerine Knight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cheechy said:
> 
> 
> 
> OMG - just watched Farage gloating in his address to the Euro parliament. "Who is laughing now?" was his party piece.
> 
> If we have this prat anywhere near negotiations we're doomed. All he seems to want to do is rub everyone there up the wrong way. Patronising and insulting and this guy is representing us
> 
> Great start in trying to get a good deal then? [smiley=bomb.gif]
> 
> 
> 
> I've just seen the news it appeared he walked into a barrage of abuse and was continually being heckled and booed. It came across to me that he was only giving as good as he got.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> He has a history of abusing the EU parliament members and I've seen it many times and each time I've felt embarrassed that such a person purports to represent us. He only went there to gloat and cause trouble. They were probably expecting him and I can't blame them for being angry. I only wonder how they've put up with him so far :?
Click to expand...

I think in all fairness John there are a few on here who need to act in a more civilised manner. Yes he has been a contentious character at times but as they say 2 wrongs don't make a right. You know my views on certain individuals on here that's why I don't show up at the meets anymore but I would not have been that illmanered to shout them down when they were putting there point across regardless of there past history.


----------



## John-H

I don't know if you've seen him before at the EU Kurt? I always wondered why, given his opposition to the EU he should become an MEP and claim EU expenses as given his stance seems hypocritical. It's supposed to be a parliament to serve the people and better the good but he seems only to have gone there to cause as much trouble as he can - from what I've seen.


----------



## drjam

I heard it live on the radio this morning. To be honest he was an embarrassment: crass, graceless, smug and insulting. He wasn't provoked into it, he just launched into the equivalent of sticking two fingers up and chanting "ha, ha, we won, you losers". Yes, he was heckled and booed, once he started throwing insults around. 
At a time when the idea is to negotiate as good deal as we can, it was like sending a self-important two-year old in to get things started.


----------



## Tangerine Knight

John-H said:


> I don't know if you've seen him before at the EU Kurt? I always wondered why, given his opposition to the EU he should become an MEP and claim EU expenses as given his stance seems hypocritical. It's supposed to be a parliament to serve the people and better the good but he seems only to have gone there to cause as much trouble as he can - from what I've seen.


I agree with the fact he's an MEP yet is so anti Europe so can't really disagree with you on that one


----------



## Spandex

John-H said:


> It's supposed to be a parliament to serve the people and better the good but he seems only to have gone there to cause as much trouble as he can - from what I've seen.


I've always thought this. There are 22 UKIP MEPs and they all have a vested interest in making life difficult for the EU (they actually seem perversely proud of this). That's 22 wasted seats that could be used by people actually trying to represent us by working *with* the EU. And as I mentioned in a previous post, UKIP have the worst attendance at EU votes out of all the parties from all the countries. So they really cant claim to be doing anything in our interest.

So, it seems a bit rich when they come back here and tell us the EU doesn't work, after doing their best to make sure it doesn't.


----------



## John-H

Tangerine Knight said:


> John-H said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know if you've seen him before at the EU Kurt? I always wondered why, given his opposition to the EU he should become an MEP and claim EU expenses as given his stance seems hypocritical. It's supposed to be a parliament to serve the people and better the good but he seems only to have gone there to cause as much trouble as he can - from what I've seen.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with the fact he's an MEP yet is so anti Europe so can't really disagree with you on that one
Click to expand...

Nice to hear from you anyway Kurt. Long time no see. Let's hope things improve eventually for all our sakes.


----------



## Spandex

A bit more info on Farage and his record as an MEP... Despite claiming to support UKs fishing industry, during the 3 years that Farage was on the EU fisheries commission he only turned up to 1 out of 42 meetings and missed all 3 of the major votes (for each vote, he was in the building, so could have attended). Then he tells us we need to leave the EU because they don't listen to us and they destroyed our fishing industry. Slow clap for Mr. Farage...


----------



## John-H

Does this make you feel proud?


----------



## A3DFU




----------



## rustyintegrale

Spandex said:


> John-H said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's supposed to be a parliament to serve the people and better the good but he seems only to have gone there to cause as much trouble as he can - from what I've seen.
> 
> 
> 
> I've always thought this. There are 22 UKIP MEPs and they all have a vested interest in making life difficult for the EU (they actually seem perversely proud of this). That's 22 wasted seats that could be used by people actually trying to represent us by working *with* the EU. And as I mentioned in a previous post, UKIP have the worst attendance at EU votes out of all the parties from all the countries. So they really cant claim to be doing anything in our interest.
> 
> So, it seems a bit rich when they come back here and tell us the EU doesn't work, after doing their best to make sure it doesn't.
Click to expand...

Yes and I think that behaviour has contributed towards the way some members of the public both voted and behave now. It seems to have encouraged some kind of jingoistic behaviour veiled as 'getting our sovereignty back' and the EU has ended up being the scapegoat for most, if not all of UK ills.

This is why I am so disgusted with the way this referendum was carried out. The most relevant and important information on which public consideration was critical remained buried in a sea of lies.

The press should be held to account for much of this. The boorish headlines about immigration, the amount we 'give' to the EU and even the 'mickey mouse' claims that the EU determines the shape of our bananas all contributed to an underbelly of discontent and even hate towards the EU culminating in a sham of a vote.

I am frankly ashamed of the way some people in this country have behaved. I am appalled that this vote is considered to be fair and representative in light of the way all UK citizens have been fed misinformation and lies. Why nobody has questioned the legality of it following the facts that have been drip-fed since last week is telling.

This isn't a lack of communication, it's a failure to communicate the facts and a reluctance to stamp down hard on those who peddle the lies and perpetuate the myths.

Democracy in the UK is a right. But it shouldn't allow any one person or organisation the right to go around influencing decisions made following a public vote if they are distributing proven untruths and inaccurate figures. If we go ahead and act on this result, that single act will undermine the very freedoms that the 'leavers' attributed to our forefathers and rightly wanted to protect.


----------



## jamman

Quite agree with the above but what it really boils down to is we are dealing with elected people that will say anything just to win and hoodwink the voter.

Both sides are guilty, shame on them.


----------



## rustyintegrale

jamman said:


> Quite agree with the above but what it really boils down to is we are dealing with elected people that will say anything just to win and hoodwink the voter.
> 
> Both sides are guilty, shame on them.


Yeah but it shouldn't be allowed, full stop.

If you or I were to convince a colour-blind punter that your TT was a maroon coupe with a V6 engine and sell it as such, we'd have no hope in hell if he complained to a court of law. As such we would have to put right the wrong and possibly face a penalty for it.

Similar stringent rules should be applied to the far more important and influential decisions made on the basis of systematic untruths put forward by our politicians. They think they can demand explanations from the likes of Philip Green when he does a shady deal but consider themselves untouchable when they do far worse.


----------



## 3TT3

By Jingo

_And gentlemen in England now a-bed
Shall think themselves accurs'd they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Nigel's day._

Perhaps those who are disgruntled should rather blame their own "side" . The youngest age voting group 18-24, who apparently stayed abed holding their manhoods cheap.
Were told  that only 36% of this group actually voted and that this group were over 70% in favour of remain .They seemed to have np in turning out for a good ol demo near Westminster last night.. probably more fun.

just a thought.


----------



## Spandex

rustyintegrale said:


> The press should be held to account for much of this.


This would be very difficult to achieve. Press bias is subtle and insidious and is easy to achieve without breaking any rules or laws.

Look at the reporting of Corbyns referendum campaign (or lack of it). From what I can gather, he was campaigning up and down the country on most days leading up to the vote, yet there was no sign of him in any of the newspapers or main TV channels - the same places that ran numerous stories every evening about all the other leaders campaigns. Then when it's all over, the press are baying for his blood (almost as much as his party) citing the poor Labour performance. Labour managed a 65% remain vote, which is 1% more than SNP, yet the press aren't telling us the SNP did badly in the vote.



3TT3 said:


> Perhaps those who are disgruntled should rather blame their own "side" . The youngest age voting group 18-24, who apparently stayed abed holding their manhoods cheap.


Someone's already done the calculations for that one. If every one of the 18-24 group had voted *and* every one of them voted 'remain' it still would have been a very slim win for leave. So no point blaming them alone.

And anyway, it seems a little unfair to guess peoples motives for not voting and then blame them for it. There is a large group of people who *definitely did* vote leave, so I would suggest they make a better target for the 'disgruntled'.


----------



## A3DFU

> Mr Kerry publicly insisted that the "special relationship" between America and Britain would be as strong as ever. But few, including US and UK officials, believe it can continue as before.
> Britain has traditionally been America's bridge into the Europe, an ally on issues of foreign policy, security and trade. Brexit means that Britain will simply not have that presence and influence any longer and the US is readjusting its policies towards the EU in light of that reality.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 07966.html


----------



## Dash

I agree with you rusty - there should be accountability. Just because it's difficult to regulate things, doesn't mean there shouldn't be an attempt.

First off - politicians need to be forced by the electoral commission to a high standard of not-misleading the public. Campaigns need to make it clear what they plan to deliver and how they would do it. Any claims shown to be factually incorrect need to be retracted and depending on how blatant the lie was potentially further repercussions.

Statements like "take our country back" need to be backed by why they feel that the country was lost in the first place and how they plan to change that.

The press should be regulated for the purposes of elections/referrendums etc into having to report all official campaigns with equal coverage and stick to reporting, with citations, what is being said. Opinion pieces need to be clearly labelled with who the opinion is by with a note of who owns the publication next to each one. The power of the media is too powerful to be left unchecked - it's dangerous to suggest general regulation as we don't want to infringe on free speech, but we must protect against the lies and the agendas from the all powerful media.

As a society I wish we could rise above sensationalist and popularism.


----------



## j8keith

Henry Alfred Kissinger summed it up :-

*"America has no permanent friends or enemies, only interests"*

true today as when it was quoted many years ago.


----------



## TJS

The vote was not just about Remain or Leave the EU, it was also a fundamental opportunity for members of the public to express their impatience and lack of confidence against the UK financial and political elite such as the Bullingdon Boys (Messrs. Cameron, Osborne and Johnson) and the Corbynistas who are simply self centred professional politicians with no common sense relationship with society.

Cameron et al, politically gambled, rather smugly, that their legacy would be cemented by facilitating a UK referendum on Europe which they believed would result in an emphatic Remain outcome, however, the electorate called their bluff. From my personal perspective a UK Referendum simply wasn't needed. The financial markets will self correct within weeks as the traders unwind there positions.

As for UK politics, I see this as a typically reserved and polite British interpretation of the "Arab Spring" which has to culminate in a general election sooner rather than later which none of the main political parties wants or is in a position to fight. As for potential UK devolution, bring it on, as long as it is a UK wide referendum. Finally, If the govt does not action Article 50 soon, in accordance with the referendum result, and tries to barter or delay EU exit then society's mistrust of politicians will be complete to the cost of the hallowed principals of democracy.

Exciting times ahead!


----------



## A3DFU

TJS said:


> The vote was not just about Remain or Leave the EU, it was also a fundamental opportunity for members of the public to express their impatience and lack of confidence against the UK financial and political elite such as the Bullingdon Boys (Messrs. Cameron, Osborne and Johnson) and the Corbynistas who are simply self centred professional politicians with no common sense relationship with society.


And this is precisely the crux of the matter that some people mistook the referendum as a vote of no confidence against the ruling parties rather understanding it for what it was; a simple question whether or not the UK should remain a part of the EU.


----------



## nilanth

Spandex said:


> A bit more info on Farage and his record as an MEP... Despite claiming to support UKs fishing industry, during the 3 years that Farage was on the EU fisheries commission he only turned up to 1 out of 42 meetings and missed all 3 of the major votes (for each vote, he was in the building, so could have attended). Then he tells us we need to leave the EU because they don't listen to us and they destroyed our fishing industry. Slow clap for Mr. Farage...


From my understanding the UK is given a fishing quota which is/was then distributed by Westminister and most of the distribution went to the big companies and not the individuals.I believe the EU also provided funding to buy new nets and boats etc. I doubt this information was conveyed appropriately by Mr.Farage to the fishing industry.


----------



## Spandex

nilanth said:


> From my understanding the UK is given a fishing quota which is/was then distributed by Westminister and most of the distribution went to the big companies and not the individuals.I believe the EU also provided funding to buy new nets and boats etc. I doubt this information was conveyed appropriately by Mr.Farage to the fishing industry.


From what I've read about him recently, I doubt he's ever made any real effort to help anyone other than himself. He's been slowly stabbing the EU in the back, whilst loudly complaining that their blood is staining our favourite carpet.


----------



## TJS

I think this sums it !!


----------



## Spandex

A3DFU said:


> TJS said:
> 
> 
> 
> The vote was not just about Remain or Leave the EU, it was also a fundamental opportunity for members of the public to express their impatience and lack of confidence against the UK financial and political elite such as the Bullingdon Boys (Messrs. Cameron, Osborne and Johnson) and the Corbynistas who are simply self centred professional politicians with no common sense relationship with society.
> 
> 
> 
> And this is precisely the crux of the matter that some people mistook the referendum as a vote of no confidence against the ruling parties rather understanding it for what it was; a simple question whether or not the UK should remain a part of the EU.
Click to expand...

And in doing so, condemned the whole country to a period (who knows how long) of austerity, cuts, slow growth and job losses and for what? So that the same party are in control, with a different upper-class prat at the helm. Well we really showed them, didn't we?

Maybe one day people will realise they haven't 'taken back control'. They've just handed control to someone else who has even less of their interests at heart then the EU did. I won't hold my breath though.


----------



## nilanth

Spandex said:


> nilanth said:
> 
> 
> 
> From my understanding the UK is given a fishing quota which is/was then distributed by Westminister and most of the distribution went to the big companies and not the individuals.I believe the EU also provided funding to buy new nets and boats etc. I doubt this information was conveyed appropriately by Mr.Farage to the fishing industry.
> 
> 
> 
> From what I've read about him recently, I doubt he's ever made any real effort to help anyone other than himself. He's been slowly stabbing the EU in the back, whilst loudly complaining that their blood is staining our favourite carpet.
Click to expand...

I'll be honest, and this is just my personal opinion, it's not solely based on his political agenda (the way he talks, his smirky attitude, how he spoke at the EU meeting etc) but to me he just seems like a cock. Apologies for any offence caused to anyone


----------



## mighTy Tee

One week on and the markets close up on pre-Brexit

Another Brexit apocalypse prediction BUSTED

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36660133


----------



## nilanth

Closed up as in recovered to the pre referendum levels, or closed up as in moved up from levels which it fell to post referendum ?


----------



## John-H

mighTy Tee said:


> One week on and the markets close up on pre-Brexit
> 
> Another Brexit apocalypse prediction BUSTED
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36660133


Did you read all of that piece Richard?



> However Joe Rundle, head of trading at ETX Capital, warned reality was likely to bite soon.
> "What we're seeing in the FTSE is hope in Britain being able to ride it out by remaining part of the single market. This looks like wishful thinking."


Next month the London and Frankfurt stock exchange shareholders are going to be voting on merger and the plan was to have the headquarters in London. Now that's being questioned as it wouldn't make sense to have the headquarters outside of the EU.


----------



## mighTy Tee

John-H said:


> mighTy Tee said:
> 
> 
> 
> One week on and the markets close up on pre-Brexit
> 
> Another Brexit apocalypse prediction BUSTED
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36660133
> 
> 
> 
> Did you read all of that piece Richard?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> However Joe Rundle, head of trading at ETX Capital, warned reality was likely to bite soon.
> "What we're seeing in the FTSE is hope in Britain being able to ride it out by remaining part of the single market. This looks like wishful thinking."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Next month the London and Frankfurt stock exchange shareholders are going to be voting on merger and the plan was to have the headquarters in London. Now that's being questioned as it wouldn't make sense to have the headquarters outside of the EU.
Click to expand...

Yes the experts covering their arses because they dont like being proved wrong?


----------



## nilanth

Do you think market will continue to move up after the most recent European talks where European stated single market access will not be allowed unless Britain agree to freedom of movement?


----------



## John-H

Law in Action
Brexit - A legal minefield
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07kdsdl

Well worth a listen. Three EU and domestic law professors quizzed on the issues. The way forward is certainly not clear and don't take this as being a final authority as we are into uncharted and untested areas.


----------



## drjam

mighTy Tee said:


> One week on and the markets close up on pre-Brexit
> 
> Another Brexit apocalypse prediction BUSTED
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36660133


Yep, I suspect the markets have realised that, after an initial period of uncertainty, any "brexit" deal is going to end up looking remarkably similar to "remain". 
Anyone who voted brexit hoping for dramatic changes is going to be disappointed.


----------



## Spandex

And to be fair, the stock market isn't the same as the economy (which is the main thing we should worry about) and the ftse100 isn't a particularly good measure of how well UK shares are doing.

We'll need to wait a few months at least to see what effect all this will have on the economy.


----------



## Dash

mighTy Tee said:


> One week on and the markets close up on pre-Brexit
> 
> Another Brexit apocalypse prediction BUSTED
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36660133


The FTSE100 is not the market, it's one index of the top 100 performing FTSE companies.

The FTSE and AIM all shares haven't recovered to the same extent, and the value of the pound is still looking dire.


----------



## Spandex

mighTy Tee said:


> Yes the experts covering their arses because they dont like being proved wrong?


Do you automatically distrust *all* experts, *all* of the time, or is it only when when they disagree with your opinion? Just trying to work out if there are some rules to this whole 'tired of experts' thing we're supposed to be embracing these days.


----------



## John-H

Ipsos Mori - Only 22% thought they understood what they were voting on "well or very well"

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/ ... referendum

Is this democracy?


----------



## rustyintegrale

Spandex said:


> mighTy Tee said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes the experts covering their arses because they dont like being proved wrong?
> 
> 
> 
> Do you automatically distrust *all* experts, *all* of the time, or is it only when when they disagree with your opinion? Just trying to work out if there are some rules to this whole 'tired of experts' thing we're supposed to be embracing these days.
Click to expand...

Oh come off it Spandy! Far better to believe what the Daily Mail says or wot the bloke in the street said on telly... :lol:


----------



## fut1a

Maybe one day people will realise they haven't 'taken back control'. They've just handed control to someone else who has even less of their interests at heart then the EU did. I won't hold my breath though.[/quote]

Maybe or maybe not, but at least the people will have a chance to vote them out after 4 years. Something you can't do with any of the EU presidents. If you don't have a say on how you are governed then it's more like living under a dictatorship.


----------



## John-H

fut1a said:


> Spandex said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe one day people will realise they haven't 'taken back control'. They've just handed control to someone else who has even less of their interests at heart then the EU did. I won't hold my breath though.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe or maybe not, but at least the people will have a chance to vote them out after 4 years. Something you can't do with any of the EU presidents. If you don't have a say on how you are governed then it's more like living under a dictatorship.
Click to expand...

European Parliament president - Martin Schulz. Elected by: Members of the European Parliament who are in turn elected by us the people. 
The role is akin to that of a chairman.

European Council president - Donald Tusk. Appointed by: national leaders (heads of state or government of EU countries), who are in turn appointed by their own governments, who are in turn elected by us the people.
The role has no executive powers and is akin to that of a chairman.

European Commission president - Jean-Claude Juncker. Appointed by: national leaders (heads of state or government of EU countries), with the approval of the European Parliament, so again in turn appointed by democratically elected governments, who are in turn elected by us the people.
Has the must executive power and nearest you get to a prime minister.

In the UK we have unelected civil servants, roles appointed by MPs such as house of commons speaker and various committee roles ect and don't forget we have the house of lords which are a mixture of appointed and hereditary positions which are unelected and we have a head of state who is the German ruling monarch.

I certainly wouldn't describe the EU presidents as dictators nor divorced from the democratic process in comparison. We are about to have an appointed UK prime minister thrust upon us after all and I think our country seems to be the most out of control right now.


----------



## drjam

New Prime Minister, to be chosen by 150,000 Conservative Party members (who I'm sure are a diverse lot, representing all segments and interests of our society...)


----------



## Spandex

fut1a said:


> Maybe one day people will realise they haven't 'taken back control'. They've just handed control to someone else who has even less of their interests at heart then the EU did. I won't hold my breath though.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe or maybe not, but at least the people will have a chance to vote them out after 4 years. Something you can't do with any of the EU presidents. If you don't have a say on how you are governed then it's more like living under a dictatorship.
Click to expand...

That makes no sense in the context of how the EU works. The EU had no control over the UK other than what our elected government gave them in return for access to all the stuff we wanted from them. The EU regulations which we had to adopt related to things that were linked to the common market, like working conditions, manufacturing, standards, etc. The EU had no control over the stuff you expect your government to handle like health, defence, foreign policy, etc. On top of that, the European Union act protects us from those things being taken away from us (despite the Leave campaigns ridiculous claims that we could, sorry, *definitely would* be forced to join an EU army).

So now, we're going to end up joining the common market from outside with all the same laws and regulations, with the same freedom of movement, with some fees to pay (just like Norway pays). We're going to keep all the things the Leavers bitched about and we're going to lose any influence or control we had (and we were one of the most important and influential members of the EU, again despite what the Leave campaign claimed).

The alternative is to leave the common market and watch the economy nose-dive, and do you really think Johnson or any other leader is going to volunteer to be the person who instigated that?


----------



## John-H

drjam said:


> New Prime Minister, to be chosen by 150,000 Conservative Party members (who I'm sure are a diverse lot, representing all segments and interests of our society...)


A larger number but still only representing conservative party interests though. The general public don't get a say.


----------



## drjam

So Boris has bottled out of actually having to put in the hard work of making Brexit work. :lol: 
You couldn't make it up...


----------



## rustyintegrale

drjam said:


> So Boris has bottled out of actually having to put in the hard work of making Brexit work. :lol:
> You couldn't make it up...


He can. He's had plenty of practice.

What a joke!


----------



## jamman

I'm slightly relieved but not surprised.

30 June 2016 - British Justice Secretary Michael Gove made a surprise announcement on Thursday that he would stand for the leadership of the ruling Conservative Party and to be the next prime minister.

Gove had been widely expected to support former London mayor Boris Johnson for the job.

"I wanted to help build a team behind Boris Johnson so that a politician who argued for leaving the European Union could lead us to a better future," Gove wrote in a column announcing his leadership bid on the Spectator magazine's website.

"*But I have come, reluctantly, to the conclusion that Boris cannot provide the leadership or build the team for the task ahead*."


----------



## Bartsimpsonhead

Boris went to Eaton with David Cameron, and might've been in the same 'clubs' - he's probably got a pigs head or two tucked away in the dark corners of his closet that the gutter press would use to blackmail him to get what they want if he became PM.

It'd be nice to think this is the reason he backed out of the running to save any future embarrassment for himself and the party - politics has been dragged through the gutter rather a lot lately, so to have someone truthful with a good character taking the top job would be nice for a change...


----------



## John-H

Do you think he was the joker in the pack? There's a certain Wiff-Waff-ting about ....










https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... aked-email


----------



## jamman

I shall use "Sun" language

Looks like Boris has been [email protected] over, what a shame....


----------



## A3DFU

Five charts that show the vulnerability of the UK economy.
There was fragility even before the political and economic earthquake of the Brexit vote

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/busin ... 10981.html

Makes for reassuring reading :?


----------



## Spandex

Written before Boris fell on his sword, but still interesting:

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/bre ... 06996.html


----------



## drjam

jamman said:


> I shall use "Sun" language
> 
> Looks like Boris has been [email protected] over, what a shame....


[email protected] over? 
He just didn't have the courage of his convictions when it came to a battle.
He'll just carry on coining it for his media work: talking the talk but too superficial to walk the walk.
Still, it's better he loses his bottle now than midway through a difficult brexit negotiation or some future national emergency.
A lucky escape imho.


----------



## John-H

Can the law stop Brexit?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-u ... u-36671629

Forget the politics - Brexit may be unlawful:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... wful-eu-uk


----------



## A3DFU

Spandex said:


> Written before Boris fell on his sword, but still interesting:
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/bre ... 06996.html


Yes.

Also a few days old by now but just as interesting ...

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/i-b ... 04181.html


----------



## Tangerine Knight

John-H said:


> Can the law stop Brexit?
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-u ... u-36671629
> 
> Forget the politics - Brexit may be unlawful:
> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... wful-eu-uk


I think this has been discussed by some top people and the consensus was that it is lawful.
This is one of the reasons why Rab C Nesbits wife Mary hen sorry I mean Nicola Sturgeon is trying to curry favour with the EU and also talking another Scottish referendum.


----------



## jamman

drjam said:


> jamman said:
> 
> 
> 
> I shall use "Sun" language
> 
> Looks like Boris has been [email protected] over, what a shame....
> 
> 
> 
> [email protected] over?
> He just didn't have the courage of his convictions when it came to a battle.
> He'll just carry on coining it for his media work: talking the talk but too superficial to walk the walk.
> Still, it's better he loses his bottle now than midway through a difficult brexit negotiation or some future national emergency.
> A lucky escape imho.
Click to expand...

By all accounts the word on "da" street was that Mr Grove was going to back Boris the Buffoon and not stand himself as he stated in every interview until his "change of mind" late Wednesday night lol


----------



## cheechy

Tangerine Knight said:


> John-H said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can the law stop Brexit?
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-u ... u-36671629
> 
> Forget the politics - Brexit may be unlawful:
> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... wful-eu-uk
> 
> 
> 
> I think this has been discussed by some top people and the consensus was that it is lawful.
> This is one of the reasons why Rab C Nesbits wife Mary hen sorry I mean Nicola Sturgeon is trying to curry favour with the EU and also talking another Scottish referendum.
Click to expand...

In this new post brexit climate and based on the fact that I'm a Scot is it ok to mention that I find what you've written quite offensive? Just thought I'd mention it in the passing...

Sorry said I wouldn't post more but comment above brought my attention back and tbh reinforces my thoughts on how some voted leave. And sorry if you find what I've said offensive but I'm only stating what I'm seeing..I'll let you respond as you see fit.

Oh on Boris it's become clear that he's pretty much always been in the remain camp but saw a political opportunity and to back leave but didn't expect to win. No plan produced post win as this is something he doesn't do...and indeed his daily mail column pretty much said he expected no changes post brexit.

So essentially the champion of brexit didn't believe in it. Priceless!


----------



## Tangerine Knight

So you find it offensive I hope you have responded to all the other posts and photos of her likening her to jimmy krankie. I'm sorry but the only person sturgeon is interested in is herself. She wants to be the one that goes down in the history books as the leader who defeated the English and got independence so she can go they can put a statue up of her next to William Wallace.I must say as well you are not the only Scot on here,I moved to Blackpool from my place of birth along with my Scottish parents and siblings as a young child,when I left school before I joined the parachute regiment I served for 4 years in the Scots Guards having served in 2SG 15 platoon Left Flank as was one of the first up Tumbledown Mountain. Is that Scottish enough for you?


----------



## John-H

Tangerine Knight said:


> John-H said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can the law stop Brexit?
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-u ... u-36671629
> 
> Forget the politics - Brexit may be unlawful:
> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... wful-eu-uk
> 
> 
> 
> I think this has been discussed by some top people and the consensus was that it is lawful.
> This is one of the reasons why Rab C Nesbits wife Mary hen sorry I mean Nicola Sturgeon is trying to curry favour with the EU and also talking another Scottish referendum.
Click to expand...

Hi Kurt, just to clarify I take it you are specifically talking about the Scottish situation rather than the other issues?

I've picked up the discussion of this on constitutional websites ever since I read this article by Geoffrey Robertson quoting article 50 of the Lisbon treaty which says, "Any member state may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements." The article argued that this would therefore require Parliament to first repeal the 1972 European Communities Act, requiring another act of parliament and approval by House of Lords etc in the normal way.

I listened to this Law in Action special http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07kdsdl which included three law professors one of whom argued that he had heard the argument but didn't agree. He said that the Prime Minister could notify article 50 without repeal of the act under prerogative powers.

Since then the eminent public law specialist Lord Pannick QC said ""Whether Parliament would enact legislation to allow for an Article 50 withdrawal is a matter for it. However, without such legislation, the prime minister cannot lawfully give a notification." He has been backed up by Lord Lester QC and Sir Malcolm Jack. Details here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-u ... u-36671629

It appears then likely to depend on what MPs decide to do and whether they allow an act to be passed - which is why people should write to their MP and tell them to vote it down. If it becomes obvious that the country will suffer severe economic damage it would be perverse to plough on with Brexit regardless.

The Scottish question depends it was argued on the "Sewel" convention that the UK parliament would normally obtain the approval of the devolved government for change of legislation affecting it - so the idea was that Nicola Sturgeon and MPs could refuse permission. However UK government is sovereign and can pass overriding legislation it would seem but again depends on whether parliament decides.

The other issue raised in this article about challenging the referendum on the basis that it was done to sort out Tory party sqabbles as a prime motivator, treating it like a planning issue that favours the council chairman's brother in law and have it up for judicial review is another issue which I've only just seen.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... act-europe


----------



## Tangerine Knight

Hi John yes I agree with what you are saying about the Scots and about it being devolved but there has been some confusion regarding the imlimentation of article 50 there seems or would appear to be some very small print in that and don't quote my wording that under some foreign policy document they can go ahead without the consent of parliament as they would be acting in the national interest. I was speaking to an ex solicitor only today about it who is now a barrister and this seems to be what they will use if it starts getting legal. Im seeing him again on Monday so will ask him more.


----------



## John-H

jamman said:


> drjam said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jamman said:
> 
> 
> 
> I shall use "Sun" language
> 
> Looks like Boris has been [email protected] over, what a shame....
> 
> 
> 
> [email protected] over?
> He just didn't have the courage of his convictions when it came to a battle.
> He'll just carry on coining it for his media work: talking the talk but too superficial to walk the walk.
> Still, it's better he loses his bottle now than midway through a difficult brexit negotiation or some future national emergency.
> A lucky escape imho.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> By all accounts the word on "da" street was that Mr Grove was going to back Boris the Buffoon and not stand himself as he stated in every interview until his "change of mind" late Wednesday night lol
Click to expand...

Some are saying the hand of Murdoch is in this. The "leaked" email refers to his opinion and support for Gove. He was questioned why, having known Boris for 20 years he should suddenly change his mind following this, stab Boris and make a bid himself when he has on many occasions said he definitely had no interest in the PM job - doesn't this appear very strange - clearly a stop Boris move only.

Lord Heseltine said of Boris:



> There will be a profound sense of dismay and frankly contempt. He's ripped the party apart. He's created the greatest constitutional crisis of modern times. He knocked billions off the value of the nation's savings. He's like a general who leads his army to the sound of guns and at the sight of the battlefield abandoned the field. I have never seen so contemptible and irresponsible a situation.
> 
> "This is a free society; there's no question of punishment. He must live with the shame of what he's done.


I don't trust any of them. We are badly served by our political representatives. What was that about all power corrupts?


----------



## cheechy

Tangerine Knight said:


> So you find it offensive I hope you have responded to all the other posts and photos of her likening her to jimmy krankie. I'm sorry but the only person sturgeon is interested in is herself. She wants to be the one that goes down in the history books as the leader who defeated the English and got independence so she can go they can put a statue up of her next to William Wallace.I must say as well you are not the only Scot on here,I moved to Blackpool from my place of birth along with my Scottish parents and siblings as a young child,when I left school before I joined the parachute regiment I served for 4 years in the Scots Guards having served in 2SG 15 platoon Left Flank as was one of the first up Tumbledown Mountain. Is that Scottish enough for you?


I guess I'm just getting very weary of cumulative comments about "the jocks" . Sorry if I read too much into what you've written. I actually get the Jimmy krankie comparisons tbh

For info she is representing for now at least the vast majority of those who voted north of the border and has pretty much cross party backing. Apart from the Tories of course.

On blocking the exit it's clear that despite any strong feelings up here there is no chance we could stop brexit due to constitutional overall sovereignty of the uk parliament to do what is in the best interests of the uk as a whole.


----------



## John-H

Tangerine Knight said:


> Hi John yes I agree with what you are saying about the Scots and about it being devolved but there has been some confusion regarding the imlimentation of article 50 there seems or would appear to be some very small print in that and don't quote my wording that under some foreign policy document they can go ahead without the consent of parliament as they would be acting in the national interest. I was speaking to an ex solicitor only today about it who is now a barrister and this seems to be what they will use if it starts getting legal. Im seeing him again on Monday so will ask him more.


Yes I think the "small print" as you call it is the "prerogative powers" - crown powers held since medieval times and often used for foreign affairs however case law has it that they cannot trump an act of parliament. There's further legal opinion being sought and a letter going to be written to the government to clarify what _it_ thinks its position is on this which could if challenged be "the most important public law case in living memory". The leading public lawyers who would mount a challenge are charging well below their normal rate because of the significance of the national interest.


----------



## Tangerine Knight

He talked about this and the act has got nothing to do with the implementation of article 50 they can go ahead and do it. The act is a different matter as it has to go to parliament to be dissolved etc but by that time the article 50 clock will be ticking. He also went onto say that they would have been counselled about this beforehand hence why they are talking lime they are


----------



## cheechy

My money is on a general election being called to ratify the result once new pm is on place. Seems the cleanest way to move forward and unite the country behind a government with a mandate.


----------



## John-H

I believe if the prime minister gave article 50 notice without repealing the 1972 EU act first that the notice given would be legally invalid and as I understand it unconstitutional as the prime minister (as opposed to parliament) would not have the authority. The government have not as far as I'm aware indicated its position on this specific issue - that's why a letter is being sent to get their stance. I'm on a mailing list for news of clarification on this one.


----------



## Tangerine Knight

John-H said:


> I believe if the prime minister gave article 50 notice without repealing the 1972 EU act first that the notice given would be legally invalid and as I understand it unconstitutional as the prime minister (as opposed to parliament) would not have the authority. The government have not as far as I'm aware indicated its position on this specific issue - that's why a letter is being sent to get their stance. I'm on a mailing list for news of clarification on this one.


First, it is logically impossible for there to be any requirement for the Scottish Parliament's consent Brexit legislation enacted by Westminster unless, in the first place, the Westminster Parliament is in the process of enacting such legislation. The general view, though, is that the Article 50 process - whereby the UK's departure from the UK would be negotiated - falls to be triggered by the Government exercising its so-called prerogative powers to conduct foreign policy, rather than by Parliament enacting legislation. This means that when (or if) Article 50 is invoked, that could happen without any legislation being enacted by the UK Parliament. What this boils down to is that Brexit could become irrevocable (unless the EU agrees otherwise, it follows automatically two years after Article 50 is triggered) without the UK Parliament ever enacting any legislation to which the Scottish Parliament could object. Of course, at some point, the UK Parlaiment will have to enact legislation relating to Brexit - but if, by then, the Article 50 clock has begun to run, no amount of withholding of consent by the Scottish Parliament will make the UK's departure from the EU any less inevitable as a matter of international law. That ship will have sailed.
I just dug this out John and pulled the bit out about article 50.
To be fair when the result was announced both main parties would respect the result so who would it be down to to start a legal challenge?
We all know what politicians are like and they don't want to ruin there career with public descent.
I think the barrack room lawyers are going to be all over the legal aspect but as I've already said,no politician has mentioned any legal challenge and they would have had counsel before all this started
I know it does mention about the Scots and we have agreed about that its just the article 50 bit that I really wanted to show


----------



## John-H

Sure, if article 50 notice is triggered and no agreement is made with the EU or any new legislation adopted, then the default exit will occur in two years no matter if Scotland or UK parliament do or do not agree .

The crux is the constitutional authority to issue notice however and the legal authorities and reporting I've linked to have it that prerogative powers do not have the authority - it would first require an act of repeal. I think Clive Coleman is pretty through and won't have clarified this position unless he believed it to be true following his consultation this week. At the very least it would be uncertain if there is a difference of opinion.

There is the crowd funded action being taken too - the action may not be taken by MPs ultimately but by anyone if the constitutional situation was unsound and authority was exceeded by a prime minister.

You are correct of course that it's a moot point if MPs go ahead and vote for repeal anyway - that's why it's important to lobby them - if you want to stop Brexit of course.

This may all get taken over by events of course. A week is a long time in politics.


----------



## Tangerine Knight

Hi john I've just looked at the report it does make interesting reading.
But it does say on the website I got it off that there is a slim outside chance of a legal challenge.
I'm still of the opinion that if there had been any legal issues then the government would have been made well aware of them.
I've been in crown court enough times to have heard legal arguments,case law and stated cases,its always been a matter of perception how you interpret what is written,that's why we have pre trial revues etc before big cases so there is no arguing.
I truly do believe that this will have been covered prior to the referendum.
We shall have to wait and see.


----------



## John-H

Ah, you are generously presuming competence. The government doesn't seem to be very good at predicting - it clearly thought this would never happen otherwise we wouldn't be in this ridiculous mess. Contingency planning is something it may have done some work for but how far did it go exploring its ability to do something it never wanted to do? I think we are into uncharted territory.


----------



## A3DFU

Standard and Poor cuts EU credited rating to AA

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/brexit-standar ... aa-1568384


----------



## Dash

I wonder how the EU would react to Article 50 if it was issued without an Act of Parliament. Do they just accept it as the leader of the government, which is all that is needed from their perspective - irrespective if it's deemed illegal internally in the UK - or do they push back and say it's in violation of our own laws to do it without an Act.


----------



## John-H

The prime minister has told them already unofficially and so have the press and lots of other sources. You or I could but it depends on an entity with given authority to provide notice according to constitutional requirements. Crucially also, the referendum result is not THE decision anyway as it's just an opinion poll to advise parliament. Well that's my understanding for what it's worth.


----------



## Spandex

I think the legal argument is a red herring really. I doubt any politicians would be willing to go against the referendum result in such an overtly combative way, and even if they did, a future government might do it anyway (based on the mandate given by the referendum and a general election).

Thats not to say I think it's guaranteed we'll leave. It's pretty clear there is no real appetite to completely exit the EU *and* the EEA, even within the Leave camp, so it's plausible that a more detailed 2nd referendum could be offered once the actual exit scenario is more clear. Given that the Leave campaign was based on some pretty fundamental promises, it might make a lot of sense to ask people again if it transpires a number of those promises can't be kept.


----------



## John-H

The constitutional legal argument puts it back to parliament and provides a brake to any immediate individual action because of the uncertainty. That may also be why Cameron batted it into the long grass.

We've got a lot of MPs saying "democracy has spoken" at the moment but the longer it's left the clearer the consequences will become.

If the country will be ruined or expectations and promises turn out to be wide of the mark then as you say, the more likely it is the advice the referendum gave will be widely seen as _ill informed_ and this will be returned to the country in a second choice or not taken.


----------



## Spandex

But that's why I think the legal argument is meaningless - although technically it's a means to delay an exit, the government will delay regardless because no one actually wants this to happen apart from the people who voted for it (and probably not all of them any more). They know the more time they have, the more cracks will appear in the plan and the easier it will be to propose a way out.


----------



## drjam

John-H said:


> We've got a lot of MPs saying "democracy has spoken" at the moment but the longer it's left the clearer the consequences will become.


Democracy has said "get us out of the EU", having been asked a simple yes/no question. So that will definitely have to happen.
However democracy wasn't asked why people want to leave, so MPs have no real idea what negotiating position to take or what "red lines" they should have. 
Is free movement totally non-negotiable? If so, what maximum level of immigration do people actually want? Which EU rules will people still accept if it means a better deal on trade? Is putting any money into the EU a non-starter, or again is there some level of contribution that is worth it, if it gains useful economic benefits back?

So in the end, in practice it means we're definitely heading "out", on terms that will be decided by the current government's particular preferences and ideologies (i.e. those of the Conservative party; good luck if you voted out as a way to kick the establishment :lol.

The only certain outcome of all this is that almost no-one will end up with exactly what they (thought they) voted for; because - despite the simple question - only they know what they thought out (or in) should look like.


----------



## Spandex

drjam said:


> The only certain outcome of all this is that almost no-one will end up with exactly what they (thought they) voted for; because - despite the simple question - only they know what they thought out (or in) should look like.


I don't think that's strictly true. Of course everyone perceives things differently, but most people don't have a deep understanding of the complexities of leaving the EU, so voters ideas of what 'out' should look like was heavily informed by what they were told.

So, if what they were told is shown to be unachievable, would a 2nd referendum (with choices based on what actually *is* achievable) be undemocratic? Although I don't think it's the most likely scenario, I can imagine a government spinning it as a positive thing especially if, over the next few months, the EU promises serious reforms to try to keep us (and other countries) in. In that scenario I think many people in both Leave and Remain camps would feel they got a good result.


----------



## jamman

squirm Boris squirm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36683970


----------



## A3DFU

Political court action in Austria

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36681475


----------



## John-H

Spandex said:


> But that's why I think the legal argument is meaningless - although technically it's a means to delay an exit, the government will delay regardless because no one actually wants this to happen apart from the people who voted for it (and probably not all of them any more). They know the more time they have, the more cracks will appear in the plan and the easier it will be to propose a way out.


Well, imagine a leave now PM was put in place - we'd be glad of legal advice putting the brakes on in that case. Hopefully nobody would want to though which I'd agree is more likely.



A3DFU said:


> Political court action in Austria
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36681475


Someone on the World Tonight was saying it might actually favour the Greens because of recent events.



jamman said:


> squirm Boris squirm
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36683970


At least he didn't just say "No comment" - quite revealing really.


----------



## A3DFU

John-H said:


> A3DFU said:
> 
> 
> 
> Political court action in Austria
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36681475
> 
> 
> 
> Someone on the World Tonight was saying it might actually favour the Greens because of recent events.
Click to expand...

Yup. That's what they said on German news which I just watched.


----------



## John-H




----------



## rustyintegrale

This makes for interesting reading...


----------



## John-H

That does make interesting reading. From acorns ....

I remember a pupil who suddenly appeared in school because his family had relocated, who stood out as a racist and something of an activist. His father was in the National Front and his son was very forthright in his views too. He wasn't liked by most of the class and was often a cringing embarrassment. I remember when we went on a school trip to a university to see student life - we walked into the canteen for lunch and our National Front diplomat said in a loud voice, "God, it's like the league of bloody nations in here!". I often wonder what happened to him.


----------



## John-H

With an Ipsos Mori poll last week saying - Only 22% thought they understood what they were voting on "well or very well", now another of their polls says more than 1/3 of people think we will remain in the EU.

Tim Farron was on the Today programme this morning saying he did not support an immediate re-run of the referendum nor that MPs should defiantly vote down a move to leave the EU because that was in defiance of the public vote but he said although the vote to leave was clear it was not clear what they wanted to replace it. The country would likely be given a second choice of new terms of our relationship with the EU in the form of a general election or a second referendum. Interestingly he also made the point that article 50 notification could be withdrawn if we changed our minds mid process.

The constitutional question surrounding article 50 and the rights to invoke it received more public exposure on Today with Justin's interview with Baroness Helena Kennedy QC Labour peer and chair of the justice sub committee along with Carl Gardner a former government lawyer who worked on the Lisbon Treaty.

Carl Gardener said he didn't agree with constitutional expert Lord Pannick QC and said that he thought the prime minister and the "government" had prerogative powers to exercise decisions over foreign policy matters with ancient rights inherited from the monarchy. That MPs ought to control this he didn't disagree with but a much stronger legal claim that it was unlawful, although it has eminent legal backing from the likes of Lord Pannick, was wrong.

Foreign office matters usually involving diplomatic and security services often deal with sensitive matters not put to the wider parliament in detail for obvious reasons and this is generally accepted by parliament. This is not of such sensitivity.

Baroness Kennedy said this goes beyond Lord Pannick - there are a group of constitutional senior lawyers at the bar who say it goes back to parliamentary sovereignty which overrule the somewhat bizarre powers invested in prime ministers taken from kings and queens. This geos back to parliament and its right of sovereignty over the monarchy - where Cromwell defeated King Charles and parliament took control - we need to remember that it was the act of union where it was agreed that these powers would be overruled in favour of those from joining the EU.

Justin put it that Lord Pannick said that where there was an act of parliament that would be changed by a decision, prerogerative powers can not be invoked to overturn the will of parliament. Carl Gardener said it was Lord Pannick himself who was in the High Court over the Maastricht Treaty regarding a legal challenge to the government's right to sign it and the High Court gave the argument short shrift and nothing has changed since. That did not overturn an act however but regarded the right to sign a treaty and invoking article 50 in this case would lead to overturning an act.

Justin asked, so who decides? Baroness Kennedy said the referendum question did not elucidate what it was people were expecting to be put in place. Judges are going to be very reluctant to intervene. Referenda are to advise - but whom - the prime minister or parliament? We are a representative democracy - not a feudal monarchy. So there is a role for parliament to define what is on offer. We have a representative democracy - almost half the people did not want to leave and a lot of people did not realise the consequences - and what was on offer was not being told to us in an honest way.

In answer to a final question, Carl Gardener and Helena Kennedy both agreed that article 50 could be unrevoked. It's not a guillotine and if all parties agreed they could step back.

I wonder what will happen by next week?


----------



## Spandex

This letter from a humanities professor to all 650 MPs sums up a lot of the reasons why referendums aren't a very good way to make important decisions, and why they're often not particularly democratic:

https://www.nchlondon.ac.uk/2016/07/01/ ... july-2016/


----------



## Spandex

A classic, made relevant again:


----------



## John-H

It's so obvious an abrogation of government responsibility to give such a complex decision to the ley public. I hope too much damage is avoided before they start doing their job again.


----------



## A3DFU

Spandex said:


> https://www.nchlondon.ac.uk/2016/07/01/ ... july-2016/


Excellent letter. It, or part of it, could be used if someone has written to their MP to stop Brexit and received a negative reply from the MP.


----------



## bobclive22

> This letter from a humanities professor to all 650 MPs sums up a lot of the reasons why referendums aren't a very good way to make important decisions, and why they're often not particularly democratic.


Don`t you lot ever give up, you got an extra 48 hours to register your vote and you still lost, if the government considered the electorate could not be trusted with this most important decision why on earth did they agree to a referendum in the first place. If the leave vote had lost which at one point I thought it had I would have excepted that and moved on, I suggest you do the same.


----------



## cheechy

bobclive22 said:


> This letter from a humanities professor to all 650 MPs sums up a lot of the reasons why referendums aren't a very good way to make important decisions, and why they're often not particularly democratic.
> 
> 
> 
> Don`t you lot ever give up, you got an extra 48 hours to register your vote and you still lost, if the government considered the electorate could not be trusted with this most important decision why on earth did they agree to a referendum in the first place. If the leave vote had lost which at one point I thought it had I would have excepted that and moved on, I suggest you do the same.
Click to expand...

It's wasn't a sporting event Bob.

I'm still angry about the result yes but in the end the result was clear. However the reasons why people voted out are varied and this needs to be better understood to provide a basis fir negotiations.

If we can't get what we need to prevent the uk being punted back into the 70s in terms of economic outlook then do we come out regardless and revert to WTO or do we present the options in a final ref? Who knows.

Whilst I was hoping for a general election to provide a mandate it's become more clear the front runner doesn't support it...leading me to believe a 2nd referendum to validate the direction the government has gone is what people want.

What concerns me is that the polls mentioned above mentioned 38% of those that voted out stated that immigration should be controlled above all else.


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> Don`t you lot ever give up, you got an extra 48 hours to register your vote and you still lost, if the government considered the electorate could not be trusted with this most important decision why on earth did they agree to a referendum in the first place. If the leave vote had lost which at one point I thought it had I would have excepted that and moved on, I suggest you do the same.


I'm not sure why you think the extra 48hrs worked in either sides favour. Surely the more voters registered, the fairer the vote?

I think by now you should know why the government agreed to a referendum (it's been mentioned enough times here and in the press), and it had nothing to do with whether or not we could be trusted with the decision. Clearly we should never have been asked, given that very very few of us have the expertise required. I mean, would you want all government decisions to be made by people (like us) who had no qualifications in the subject?


----------



## barry_m2

bobclive22 said:


> This letter from a humanities professor to all 650 MPs sums up a lot of the reasons why referendums aren't a very good way to make important decisions, and why they're often not particularly democratic.
> 
> 
> 
> Don`t you lot ever give up, you got an extra 48 hours to register your vote and you still lost, if the government considered the electorate could not be trusted with this most important decision why on earth did they agree to a referendum in the first place. If the leave vote had lost which at one point I thought it had I would have excepted that and moved on, I suggest you do the same.
Click to expand...

I totally agree. It's funny seeing all these people spit their dummies out and crying for a second referendum because the first one didn't go their way! Say a 2nd referendum is called (it wont) and 'exit' wins again, will they stomp their feet and say "Best of 5?"... :lol:

Id say that for all the people who didn't know all the reasons for voting LEAVE, a lot of people probably didn't know all the reasons why they were voting REMAIN.


----------



## bobclive22

> I'm still angry about the result yes but in the end the result was clear. However the reasons why people voted out are varied and this needs to be better understood to provide a basis fir negotiations.


The exit voters fully understood what they were voting for, (1) immigration control (2) democracy, as far as the economy was concerned that was less important as the exit voters considered it is more advantageous in the longer term to *trade in the world market and not just in your back yard.* The older voter has seen it all before so were not taken in by the government scare tactics. The NHS funding and lack of NHS staff if we left, the numbers on the side of the bus, workers rights were all floss and of no concern to the exit voter, they were just press headlines.

To end, the millions of EU unskilled immigrants don`t head for the south east, that`s why the exit vote was so strong north of the M25, I`m talking about England not Scotland or Northern Ireland.



> I'm not sure why you think the extra 48hrs worked in either sides favour. Surely the more voters registered, the fairer the vote?


Because the extension was to give more time for the younger voter to register, the crash could have even been a government dos attack who knows.


----------



## cheechy

bobclive22 said:


> I'm still angry about the result yes but in the end the result was clear. However the reasons why people voted out are varied and this needs to be better understood to provide a basis fir negotiations.
> 
> 
> 
> The exit voters fully understood what they were voting for, (1) immigration control (2) democracy, as far as the economy was concerned that was less important as the exit voters considered it is more advantageous in the longer term to *trade in the world market and not just in your back yard.* The older voter has seen it all before so were not taken in by the government scare tactics. The NHS funding and lack of NHS staff if we left, the numbers on the side of the bus, workers rights were all floss and of no concern to the exit voter, they were just press headlines.
> 
> To end, the millions of EU unskilled immigrants don`t head for the south east, that`s why the exit vote was so strong north of the M25, I`m talking about England not Scotland or Northern Ireland.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure why you think the extra 48hrs worked in either sides favour. Surely the more voters registered, the fairer the vote?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Because the extension was to give more time for the younger voter to register, the crash could have even been a government dos attack who knows.
Click to expand...

Yup so you know why YOU voted out but what about other out voters? Are you the elected spokesman for them all? :lol:


----------



## cheechy

barry_m2 said:


> bobclive22 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This letter from a humanities professor to all 650 MPs sums up a lot of the reasons why referendums aren't a very good way to make important decisions, and why they're often not particularly democratic.
> 
> 
> 
> Don`t you lot ever give up, you got an extra 48 hours to register your vote and you still lost, if the government considered the electorate could not be trusted with this most important decision why on earth did they agree to a referendum in the first place. If the leave vote had lost which at one point I thought it had I would have excepted that and moved on, I suggest you do the same.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I totally agree. It's funny seeing all these people spit their dummies out and crying for a second referendum because the first one didn't go their way! Say a 2nd referendum is called (it wont) and 'exit' wins again, will they stomp their feet and say "Best of 5?"... :lol:
> 
> Id say that for all the people who didn't know all the reasons for voting LEAVE, a lot of people probably didn't know all the reasons why they were voting REMAIN.
Click to expand...

Not getting the relevance here and tbh I'm seeing a lot of leave voters still being very assertive and almost aggressive in their assertion that "they won" and that now we should get on and leave.

So try and be constructive and put your side across. We are leaving but something needs to go into the void left apart from the soundbites I'm *still* hearing about taking control, immigration etc.

So what does that now mean.

...and don't tell me that it's up to politicians to decide! You voted leave so tell us what you'd like to see?


----------



## bobclive22

> given that very very few of us have the expertise required. I mean, would you want all government decisions to be made by people (like us) who had no qualifications in the subject?


You don`t need qualifications, you just need to experience living with a zero rate contract and experiencing first hand the quality of life and your way of live life degenerate into something unrecognisable to what it was 10 years previously all because of unskilled mass immigration.



> Yup so you know why YOU voted out but what about other out voters? Are you the elected spokesman for them all? :lol:


Why don`t you ask them there are plenty of other forums discussing this.


----------



## jamman

Bobs back....

There goes all (semi) intelligent debate until he buggers off again :roll:

"I want it to be like the old days..."


----------



## bobclive22

> So try and be constructive and put your side across. We are leaving but something needs to go into the void left apart from the soundbites *I'm still hearing about taking control, immigration etc.*


Taking control of immigration in my view is controlling the numbers by *only allowing in the skills required*, this will immediately take away the downward wage pressure on lower skilled workers which have been the ones most effected, companies will then not have further access to cheap unskilled eastern European labour.

Perhaps our fishermen might get a better deal outside the EU.


----------



## bobclive22

> There goes all (semi) intelligent debate until he buggers off again


That`s me and 17 million others.


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> There goes all (semi) intelligent debate until he buggers off again
> 
> 
> 
> That`s me and 17 million others.
Click to expand...

That's a bit unfair Bob. I actually think there's a reasonable percentage of Leave voters who are relatively normal.


----------



## John-H

barry_m2 said:


> bobclive22 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This letter from a humanities professor to all 650 MPs sums up a lot of the reasons why referendums aren't a very good way to make important decisions, and why they're often not particularly democratic.
> 
> 
> 
> Don`t you lot ever give up, you got an extra 48 hours to register your vote and you still lost, if the government considered the electorate could not be trusted with this most important decision why on earth did they agree to a referendum in the first place. If the leave vote had lost which at one point I thought it had I would have excepted that and moved on, I suggest you do the same.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I totally agree. It's funny seeing all these people spit their dummies out and crying for a second referendum because the first one didn't go their way! Say a 2nd referendum is called (it wont) and 'exit' wins again, will they stomp their feet and say "Best of 5?"... :lol:
> 
> Id say that for all the people who didn't know all the reasons for voting LEAVE, a lot of people probably didn't know all the reasons why they were voting REMAIN.
Click to expand...

Not at all. Even if the small margin had gone the other way and remain had won I would still have said, "Phew, that was close - what a stupid and risky thing to do putting such a complex issue to the ley public!"

As for why I voted remain, my initial thought was a simple one any idiot could understand - no change would carry on the same with no risk. As time went by however and doing a lot of research it became far more obvious that remain made more sense and here's the big thing - - - Leave didn't and still don't have a plan :lol:


----------



## John-H

cheechy said:


> bobclive22 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm still angry about the result yes but in the end the result was clear. However the reasons why people voted out are varied and this needs to be better understood to provide a basis fir negotiations.
> 
> 
> 
> The exit voters fully understood what they were voting for, (1) immigration control (2) democracy, as far as the economy was concerned that was less important as the exit voters considered it is more advantageous in the longer term to *trade in the world market and not just in your back yard.* The older voter has seen it all before so were not taken in by the government scare tactics. The NHS funding and lack of NHS staff if we left, the numbers on the side of the bus, workers rights were all floss and of no concern to the exit voter, they were just press headlines.
> 
> To end, the millions of EU unskilled immigrants don`t head for the south east, that`s why the exit vote was so strong north of the M25, I`m talking about England not Scotland or Northern Ireland.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure why you think the extra 48hrs worked in either sides favour. Surely the more voters registered, the fairer the vote?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Because the extension was to give more time for the younger voter to register, the crash could have even been a government dos attack who knows.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yup so you know why YOU voted out but what about other out voters? Are you the elected spokesman for them all? :lol:
Click to expand...

Yes Bob cracks me up too. His singular opinion defines the thoughts of leave voters? How come then an Ipsos Mori poll said said only 22% of voters understood the issues "well or very well"? I'd imagine they asked more than one person and that certainly wasn't Bob :roll:

And Bob, the issues are not just the couple you choose to mention. That just shows you are not considering all the myriad of other things that get affected by such a fundamental change. You or I can't possibly understand all the issues. The one thing I do know however is that you don't have a plan either.


----------



## Lukeytt

bobclive22 said:


> So try and be constructive and put your side across. We are leaving but something needs to go into the void left apart from the soundbites *I'm still hearing about taking control, immigration etc.*
> 
> 
> 
> Taking control of immigration in my view is controlling the numbers by *only allowing in the skills required*, this will immediately take away the downward wage pressure on lower skilled workers which have been the ones most effected, companies will then not have further access to cheap unskilled eastern European labour.
> 
> Perhaps our fishermen might get a better deal outside the EU.
Click to expand...

We need to do it the same way Australia do


----------



## John-H

> Legal steps have been taken to ensure the UK Government will not trigger the procedure for withdrawal from the EU without an Act of Parliament. The case is being brought by leading law firm, Mishcon de Reya, on behalf of a group of clients.
> 
> http://www.mishcon.com/news/firm_news/a ... nt_07_2016


----------



## Spandex

barry_m2 said:


> Id say that for all the people who didn't know all the reasons for voting LEAVE, a lot of people probably didn't know all the reasons why they were voting REMAIN.


And that sounds like an informed, reliable vote does it? Both sides confused about the impact of their choice? Sounds like a good way to govern a country?


bobclive22 said:


> Because the extension was to give more time for the younger voter to register, the crash could have even been a government dos attack who knows.


Ignoring the ridiculous conspiracy theory, the extension was to give more time to *anyone* to register. There was no way for the Remain campaign to ensure the late registrants were all, or mostly Remain voters, so it favoured neither side to do it. The only people who benefited were those who hadn't registered yet.


----------



## A3DFU

John-H said:


> Legal steps have been taken to ensure the UK Government will not trigger the procedure for withdrawal from the EU without an Act of Parliament. The case is being brought by leading law firm, Mishcon de Reya, on behalf of a group of clients.
> 
> http://www.mishcon.com/news/firm_news/a ... nt_07_2016
Click to expand...

Thank you for posting that link John.


----------



## DTH

Is this thread still going? My god. Let it go. Look at the kitty


----------



## barry_m2

cheechy said:


> ...... You voted leave so tell us what you'd like to see?


No, i didn't. I'm just able to accept the result unlike a lot of others.



Spandex said:


> barry_m2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Id say that for all the people who didn't know all the reasons for voting LEAVE, a lot of people probably didn't know all the reasons why they were voting REMAIN.
> 
> 
> 
> And that sounds like an informed, reliable vote does it? Both sides confused about the impact of their choice? Sounds like a good way to govern a country?
Click to expand...

Hmmm, that wasn't my point was it! :lol:


----------



## barry_m2

DTH said:


> Is this thread still going? My god. Let it go. Look at the kitty


 :lol: It hillarious isn't it. It clear to see who's the easiest in here to wind up, itn't it


----------



## bobclive22

> Ignoring the ridiculous conspiracy theory, the extension was to give more time to anyone to register. There was no way for the Remain campaign to ensure the late registrants were all, or mostly Remain voters, so it favoured neither side to do it. The only people who benefited were those who hadn't registered yet.
Click to expand...

600,000 young people registered to vote in the last few days of the referendum, according to the pollsters they were mainly *IN* votes, the extra 48 hours allowed more young voters to register meaning more IN votes, perhaps the pollsters got it wrong and the majority of these 600,000 + young voters voted OUT.


----------



## Spandex

barry_m2 said:


> Hmmm, that wasn't my point was it! :lol:


I have no idea what your point was supposed to be, but the point you made very well (quite probably not the one you meant to make) was that the campaigns on both sides were so poor that many people didn't understand the subject they were voting on in any depth. That seems to me like a ridiculous way to make an incredibly important and potentially risky decision.


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> Ignoring the ridiculous conspiracy theory, the extension was to give more time to anyone to register. There was no way for the Remain campaign to ensure the late registrants were all, or mostly Remain voters, so it favoured neither side to do it. The only people who benefited were those who hadn't registered yet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 600,000 young people registered to vote in the last few days of the referendum, according to the pollsters they were mainly *IN* votes, the extra 48 hours allowed more young voters to register meaning more IN votes, perhaps the pollsters got it wrong and the majority of these 600,000 + young voters voted OUT.
Click to expand...

I think there may be a reading comprehension issue here. As I said, there was no way for the Remain campaign to ensure that the late registrants were all, or mostly Remain voters.

<edit> Actually, this isn't even the point. If you value democracy as much as you claim to, how the hell can you have an issue with more people voting, regardless of which side they support?


----------



## barry_m2

Spandex said:


> barry_m2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmm, that wasn't my point was it! :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> I have no idea what your point was supposed to be, but the point you made very well (quite probably not the one you meant to make) was that the campaigns on both sides were so poor that many people didn't understand the subject they were voting on in any depth. That seems to me like a ridiculous way to make an incredibly important and potentially risky decision.
Click to expand...

Bingo


----------



## Spandex

Now Farage has stepped down as well. So pretty much all the idiots responsible for this whole cock-up have washed their hands of it now.

Is this really what 'winning' looks like?


----------



## John-H

Spandex said:


> Now Farage has stepped down as well. So pretty much all the idiots responsible for this whole cock-up have washed their hands of it now.
> 
> Is this really what 'winning' looks like?


I find it particularly ironic the he has described his party as "the turkeys that voted for Christmas".


----------



## cheechy

barry_m2 said:


> cheechy said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...... You voted leave so tell us what you'd like to see?
> 
> 
> 
> No, i didn't. I'm just able to accept the result unlike a lot of others.
> 
> 
> 
> Spandex said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> barry_m2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Id say that for all the people who didn't know all the reasons for voting LEAVE, a lot of people probably didn't know all the reasons why they were voting REMAIN.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And that sounds like an informed, reliable vote does it? Both sides confused about the impact of their choice? Sounds like a good way to govern a country?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hmmm, that wasn't my point was it! :lol:
Click to expand...

I voted for free bendy bananas for everyone.

Hard to believe - do t know what you mean!


----------



## cheechy

barry_m2 said:


> Spandex said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> barry_m2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmm, that wasn't my point was it! :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> I have no idea what your point was supposed to be, but the point you made very well (quite probably not the one you meant to make) was that the campaigns on both sides were so poor that many people didn't understand the subject they were voting on in any depth. That seems to me like a ridiculous way to make an incredibly important and potentially risky decision.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Bingo
Click to expand...

Yup can't argue with this.


----------



## DTH

barry_m2 said:


> DTH said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is this thread still going? My god. Let it go. Look at the kitty
> 
> 
> 
> :lol: It hillarious isn't it. It clear to see who's the easiest in here to wind up, itn't it
Click to expand...

That'll be Spandex then [smiley=bigcry.gif]

Look at the Kitty!


----------



## Spandex

Professor Michael Dougan of Liverpool University has uploaded a new video analysing our position and the Leave campaigns claims post-referendum:


----------



## A3DFU

Interesting video!


----------



## jamman

DTH said:


> barry_m2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DTH said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is this thread still going? My god. Let it go. Look at the kitty
> 
> 
> 
> :lol: It hillarious isn't it. It clear to see who's the easiest in here to wind up, itn't it
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That'll be Spandex then [smiley=bigcry.gif]
> 
> Look at the Kitty!
Click to expand...

If it wasn't so sad it would be hilarious

All hail The Sun readers.....


----------



## DTH

jamman said:


> If it wasn't so sad it would be hilarious
> 
> All hail The Sun readers.....


OK - I'll bite...

Don't be a D*ck

Just to be clear,
I don't read the Scum.
And you're Sad? So what? Boo Hoo.
Are you a more enlightened being than me? Possibly. More arrogant? Certainly.


----------



## jamman

barry_m2 said:


> DTH said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is this thread still going? My god. Let it go. Look at the kitty
> 
> 
> 
> :lol: It hillarious isn't it. It clear to see who's the easiest in here to wind up, itn't it
Click to expand...

 Yes it is :wink:

Look at the Kitty

Kitty should be chasing all the rats leaving the sinking ship.

They hoodwinked the "patreothick" Sun readers and now don't have a plan so off they go......


----------



## DTH

jamman said:


> barry_m2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DTH said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is this thread still going? My god. Let it go. Look at the kitty
> 
> 
> 
> :lol: It hillarious isn't it. It clear to see who's the easiest in here to wind up, itn't it
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes it is :wink:
Click to expand...

Oooh! Good save.

Fair play though. :lol:









Here's an excerpt from an article I found whilst idly Googling 'Badly Behaved Remain Voters'.

'....What, meanwhile, are the Remainers offering us? More of the same old same old. It's an instinct I can well understand. The familiar is very comforting, as we learned earlier this month in another context from a man named Albert Woodfox who'd been released after 43 years in a Louisiana penitentiary, most of it spent in solitary in a 6ft by 9ft concrete box. 'In a cell you have a routine, you pretty much know what's going to happen&#8230; So there are moments when, yeah, I wish I was back in the security of a cell. I mean, it does that to you,' he said....."

Full article http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/05/why-are-remain-campaigners-so-vicious-and-rude/

And another.....

'....This, I'm afraid, is how Remainers see us Brexiteers. They don't remotely buy into this vision we have of ourselves as the plucky freedom fighters who saved British sovereignty. Rather, in their eyes, we're a bunch of reckless, racist Little Englanders who threw away the UK economy and the right of their groovy, open-minded, cosmopolitan offspring to settle wherever they wanted on the Continent, all to prove a petty, spiteful point on behalf of that horrid, vulgar little man Nigel Farage - one which isn't going to make the damnedest bit of difference anyway because we're all globalists now.....'

Full article http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/07/be-kind-to-remainers-now-we-really-are-in-it-together/

....I'd better do some checking that the writer's not a closet Racist Xenophobe - you can never be too sure - he did vote Leave after all!


----------



## bobclive22

> I think there may be a reading comprehension issue here. As I said, there was no way for the Remain campaign to ensure that the late registrants were all, or mostly Remain voters.


You are either *naive or incredibly stupid,* (1) the majority of young voters voted to leave (this is an accepted fact and you are one of them), (2) last minute voter registration was *overwhelmingly young voters* as the older voter had pre-registered months earlier by being on the electoral list in their locality. *Cameron was intent to obtain a remain vote at any cost,* I believe the site was off for about 12 hours, do you actually believe Cameron would have increased the registration period from an extra 12 hours to 48 hours if he thought this would benefit the exit vote.


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> You are either *naive or incredibly stupid,* (1) the majority of young voters voted to leave (this is an accepted fact and you are one of them), (2) last minute voter registration was *overwhelmingly young voters* as the older voter had pre-registered months earlier by being on the electoral list in their locality. *Cameron was intent to obtain a remain vote at any cost,* I believe the site was off for about 12 hours, do you actually believe Cameron would have increased the registration period from an extra 12 hours to 48 hours if he thought this would benefit the exit vote.


Given that the extended registration didn't affect the result and, even if every late registrant had voted remain wouldn't have changed the result, I'm not even sure what your point is anymore.

Perhaps you're just such a principled man that the slightest suspicion of impropriety gets to you. I imagine all the outright, blatant, proven lies that the Leave campaign told must be driving you crazy? Or are your principles fairly flexible when a lie gets you what you want?


----------



## Spandex

> They don't remotely buy into this vision we have of ourselves as the plucky freedom fighters who saved British sovereignty.


That's hilarious. Having spoken to a few particularly moronic 'brexiters' I was starting to suspect a few of them were secretly a bit gutted that they missed WW2, and they really did have delusions of grandeur about their brave stroll to the polling station.


----------



## DTH

Spandex said:


> They don't remotely buy into this vision we have of ourselves as the plucky freedom fighters who saved British sovereignty.
> 
> 
> 
> That's hilarious. Having spoken to a few particularly moronic 'brexiters' I was starting to suspect a few of them were secretly a bit gutted that they missed WW2, and they really did have delusions of grandeur about their brave stroll to the polling station.
Click to expand...

Aww bless!

....the return of the ad hominem attack.

At least you're laughing now - you seem a little 'Sad' as of late.

You really do appear to be a horrible little person - however please continue - reading your hilarious rants makes me smile


----------



## Spandex

DTH said:


> Aww bless!
> 
> ....the return of the ad hominem attack.
> 
> At least you're laughing now - you seem a little 'Sad' as of late.
> 
> You really do appear to be a horrible little person - however please continue - reading your hilarious rants makes me smile


I can't work out if 'ad hominem attack' was the descriptive title of your post, or just an unbelievable bit of irony.


----------



## DTH

Of all the things you obviously can't work out - understanding the meaning of my post is the least of your worries. It certainly doesn't bother me.

Tu quoque may be another phrase you may find helpful to look up :lol:

I'll be back in a moment - I need some popcorn.


----------



## DTH

Here you go - I've Googled it for you - save you the bother of thinking for yourself [smiley=book2.gif] - Again.

Tu quoque is a form of ad hominem fallacy that occurs when it is assumed that an argument is wrong if the source making the claim has itself spoken or acted in a way inconsistent with it. The fallacy focuses on the perceived hypocrisy of the opponent rather than the merits of their argument...

Although in the context of this thread - I mean it to pointedley single you out as the focus of my argument that



DTH said:


> You really do appear to be a horrible little person


----------



## John-H

Apparently the number recorded registering during the extended period included people who are already registered from the previous election and were not sure. Even if more of them were young, it could only be speculation prior because the demographic was only measurable after they had registered. The question has already been put - why deny anyone the opportunity to vote? There were over 5.5 Million ex-pats and many of them complained they didn't get their voting registration documents in time - this seems an unknown number.

The fact that people are arguing about small influences highlights the close deciding margin that could have been affected.

What about all the big influences - the appalling level of lies and misinformation permeating the debate and the years leading up to it? Is that open and fair democracy? Is government policy by referendum in such circumstances on a simple majority a good way to decide our future?

How about deciding health and safety policy by referendum, or taxation, or setting levels of pollution or motorway building - is such direct government a good idea?


----------



## DTH

John-H said:


> ...The fact that people are arguing about small influences highlights the close deciding margin that could have been affected.


I disagree John - I'm personally responding to claims that I'm thick, poor, uneducated, racisct and easily led - none of which are true.

I don't see anyone arguing about small influences apart from very angry Remain supporters.



John-H said:


> How about deciding health and safety policy by referendum, or taxation, or setting levels of pollution or motorway building - is such direct government a good idea?


That's just misdirection John, (however well meant).


----------



## John-H

As far as the rules on this forum go personal attacks are not allowed. When comments are made about some other people not on this forum who happen to be (in this instance) a leave or a remain voter it is not easy to see how those comments directly concern anyone on here. Where comments are more obviously directed at people on here then it is more easy to go too far.

I suggest people have a care and stick to arguing points of issue in the debate and avoid taking or giving personal offence.


----------



## DTH

John-H said:


> As far as the rules on this forum go personal attacks are not allowed. When comments are made about some other people not on this forum who happen to be (in this instance) a leave or a remain voter it is not easy to see how those comments directly concern anyone on here. Where comments are more obviously directed at people on here then it is more easy to go too far.
> 
> I suggest people have a care and stick to arguing points of issue in the debate and avoid taking or giving personal offence.


A dissapointing response to be honest John - reading between the lines you appear to be saying that it's ok to call Leave voters 'Grunting Neanderthals' but not ok to say that the person spewing trash like that is a horrible person?

I think some balance is called for - or am I reading your sentiment wrong?


----------



## bobclive22

> What about all the big influences - *the appalling level of lies *and misinformation permeating the debate and the years leading up to it? Is that open and fair democracy? Is government policy by referendum in such circumstances on a simple majority a good way to decide our future?


If you are referring to the 350 million for the NHS, (for me that was not the reason I voted leave), perhaps you can state what actual lies the leave side stated, can`t be the number of immigrants last year, 330,000 I believe, over half of which were from EU and most of them unskilled, can`t be that Turkey is being fast tracked.


----------



## Spandex

DTH said:


> A dissapointing response to be honest John - reading between the lines you appear to be saying that it's ok to call Leave voters 'Grunting Neanderthals' but not ok to say that the person spewing trash like that is a horrible person?
> 
> I think some balance is called for - or am I reading your sentiment wrong?


To be fair, I didn't call leave voters grunting Neanderthals, I called (I think) two people who were suggesting that male refugees should be trained up and forcibly returned to a war zone to fight, grunting Neanderthals. Whether or not they were leave voters was irrelevant.

If, in your mind, calling people names is worse than sending people against their will into a war then I understand why you think that makes me a horrible person, although I can't help but feel there are a few orders of magnitude of horribleness between those two actions. Still, morals are a personal thing...


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> What about all the big influences - *the appalling level of lies *and misinformation permeating the debate and the years leading up to it? Is that open and fair democracy? Is government policy by referendum in such circumstances on a simple majority a good way to decide our future?
> 
> 
> 
> If you are referring to the 350 million for the NHS, (for me that was not the reason I voted leave), perhaps you can state what actual lies the leave side stated, can`t be the number of immigrants last year, 330,000 I believe, over half of which were from EU and most of them unskilled, can`t be that Turkey is being fast tracked.
Click to expand...

Look at the last video I posted. Lots explained in there, although I should warn you that it is explained by an expert.


----------



## DTH

Spandex said:


> bobclive22 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What about all the big influences - *the appalling level of lies *and misinformation permeating the debate and the years leading up to it? Is that open and fair democracy? Is government policy by referendum in such circumstances on a simple majority a good way to decide our future?
> 
> 
> 
> If you are referring to the 350 million for the NHS, (for me that was not the reason I voted leave), perhaps you can state what actual lies the leave side stated, can`t be the number of immigrants last year, 330,000 I believe, over half of which were from EU and most of them unskilled, can`t be that Turkey is being fast tracked.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Look at the last video I posted. Lots explained in there, although I should warn you that it is explained by an expert.
Click to expand...

Must of been a chore for some to sit through then. :roll:


----------



## DTH

Spandex said:


> DTH said:
> 
> 
> 
> A dissapointing response to be honest John - reading between the lines you appear to be saying that it's ok to call Leave voters 'Grunting Neanderthals' but not ok to say that the person spewing trash like that is a horrible person?
> 
> I think some balance is called for - or am I reading your sentiment wrong?
> 
> 
> 
> To be fair, I didn't call leave voters grunting Neanderthals, I called (I think) two people who were suggesting that male refugees should be trained up and forcibly returned to a war zone to fight, grunting Neanderthals. Whether or not they were leave voters was irrelevant.
> 
> If, in your mind, calling people names is worse than sending people against their will into a war then I understand why you think that makes me a horrible person, although I can't help but feel there are a few orders of magnitude of horribleness between those two actions. Still, morals are a personal thing...
Click to expand...

Oh I think my comment was fully understood. :lol:


----------



## Spandex

DTH said:


> Oh I think my comment was fully understood. :lol:


Well that's the important thing.


----------



## rustyintegrale

Time for a bit of light relief...

http://games.usvsth3m.com/slap-michael-gove/

Thump your spacebar as hard as you like. :lol:


----------



## bobclive22

> *Perhaps you're just such a principled man that the slightest suspicion of impropriety gets to you.* I imagine all the outright, blatant, proven lies that the Leave campaign told must be driving you crazy? Or are your principles fairly flexible when a lie gets you what you want?


No mate, what gets to me is a government that is hell bent on getting a result that suits them, ie a remain vote, and will do anything and everything to achieve that end, we now have a legal challenge by a powerful business grouping who will not divulge their names, they are challenging democracy. If the vote had gone the other way I unlike you would have accepted that and moved on. The reason the remain camp lost was they tried the same scare tactics as they had used on the Scotts with *BROWN as their secret weapon*, I am aware that we the exit voters are classed as plebs by the intellectually superior remain grouping but even plebs figure it out in the end.


----------



## John-H

bobclive22 said:


> *Perhaps you're just such a principled man that the slightest suspicion of impropriety gets to you.* I imagine all the outright, blatant, proven lies that the Leave campaign told must be driving you crazy? Or are your principles fairly flexible when a lie gets you what you want?
> 
> 
> 
> No mate, what gets to me is a government that is hell bent on getting a result that suits them, ie a remain vote, and will do anything and everything to achieve that end, we now have a legal challenge by a powerful business grouping who will not divulge their names, they are challenging democracy. If the vote had gone the other way I unlike you would have accepted that and moved on. The reason the remain camp lost was they tried the same scare tactics as they had used on the Scotts with *BROWN as their secret weapon*, I am aware that we the exit voters are classed as plebs by the intellectually superior remain grouping but even plebs figure it out in the end.
Click to expand...

I'm afraid you are completely misunderstanding the legal action Bob. The action is to uphold democracy against executive powers derived from monarchy - the action upholds the right of parliament to decide. This goes back to Cromwell and the right of parliament over that of the crown to determine policy and law.


----------



## Dash

To elaborate, the crown has a lot of power - to prevent tyranny the crown simply do something contrary to an Act of Parliament (i.e. the will of the people). This was a big turning point in how our country is ruled.

There is still a lot done under the power of the crown, but these days handled by Government (not the Commons).

Europe only require Article 50 to be enacted by the Government, but our own laws and effective constitution forbid the use of crown powers to go against an Act. The joining of Europe, as with most things legal, was done via an Act of Parliament. It was debated, voted, passed to the upper house, debated and voted on before finally going for Royal Assent. For a Prime Minister to simply through that out is what is illegal.


----------



## cheechy

bobclive22 said:


> *Perhaps you're just such a principled man that the slightest suspicion of impropriety gets to you.* I imagine all the outright, blatant, proven lies that the Leave campaign told must be driving you crazy? Or are your principles fairly flexible when a lie gets you what you want?
> 
> 
> 
> No mate, what gets to me is a government that is hell bent on getting a result that suits them, ie a remain vote, and will do anything and everything to achieve that end, we now have a legal challenge by a powerful business grouping who will not divulge their names, they are challenging democracy. If the vote had gone the other way I unlike you would have accepted that and moved on. The reason the remain camp lost was they tried the same scare tactics as they had used on the Scotts with *BROWN as their secret weapon*, I am aware that we the exit voters are classed as plebs by the intellectually superior remain grouping but even plebs figure it out in the end.
Click to expand...

Seriously stop reading the daily express. I didn't vote to remain in UK based on brown. I listened to all the arguments and voted to stay in.

Sounding more like this was a bad choice as already I'm hearing the likes of JP Morgan are moving jobs north in the hope Scotland have a better chance on staying in. I'd happily vote out now and take all those City jobs up to Edinburgh and Glasgow. Thanks English voters :lol:


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> No mate, what gets to me is a government that is hell bent on getting a result that suits them, ie a remain vote, and will do anything and everything to achieve that end, we now have a legal challenge by a powerful business grouping who will not divulge their names, they are challenging democracy. If the vote had gone the other way I unlike you would have accepted that and moved on. The reason the remain camp lost was they tried the same scare tactics as they had used on the Scotts with *BROWN as their secret weapon*, I am aware that we the exit voters are classed as plebs by the intellectually superior remain grouping but even plebs figure it out in the end.


Maybe you personally would have accepted it and moved on, but Farage made it clear on a number of occasions that a Remain vote wouldn't stop him trying to get Britain out. It seems that keeping on trying to get us out is a sign of plucky determination, but keeping on trying to stay in is 'undemocratic'.

As for scare tactics, both sides are equally guilty. For every negative story used by the Remain campaign, Leave had one of their own, such as the lies about the imminent entry of Turkey to the EU, lies about us being forced to join the Euro, lies about us being forced to join an EU army. The problem is, one mans 'scare tactic' is another mans 'serious fact' - it just depends what side you're on. I'm certain you'll never admit the above are scare tactics.

Why don't you drop the false inferiority complex. No one is falling for it any more. If people have formed a bad opinion of you, they've done it based on the numerous opinions you've posted here, not because of any Leave voter stereotypes.


----------



## bobclive22

Comment by Fasterfreddy2, St. Albans, United Kingdom

Despite the Remainers calling the Leavers 'knuckle-draggers', there was/is clear ignorance on their part to the loss of democracy if we remain in the EU. Add to that, the backroom deal to sell off the NHS to the highest bidder with guaranteed profit levels under* TTIP, *anyone voting for remain plainly failed to do their homework. And as reported elsewhere "If the referendum had been decided by* FPTP*, Leave would have won *440 (parliamentary) seats to Remain¿s 220"* in a general election. Anything past 325 effectively becomes the next government. so If this had been a General Election, Leavers would now be running the country. Roll on 2020.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... endum.html


----------



## bobclive22

> lies about the imminent entry of Turkey to the EU, lies about us being forced to join the Euro, lies about us being forced to join an EU army.


Is that it, Democracy and immigration, those were the two issues that won it, the rest was just floss.

Cameron 2010

A European Union without Turkey at its heart was "not stronger but weaker... not more secure but less... not richer but poorer".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... fears.html


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> Comment by Fasterfreddy2, St. Albans, United Kingdom
> 
> Despite the Remainers calling the Leavers 'knuckle-draggers', there was/is clear ignorance on their part to the loss of democracy if we remain in the EU. Add to that, the backroom deal to sell off the NHS to the highest bidder with guaranteed profit levels under* TTIP, *anyone voting for remain plainly failed to do their homework. And as reported elsewhere "If the referendum had been decided by* FPTP*, Leave would have won *440 (parliamentary) seats to Remain¿s 220"* in a general election. Anything past 325 effectively becomes the next government. so If this had been a General Election, Leavers would now be running the country. Roll on 2020.
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... endum.html


Did you seriously just post a Daily Mail reader comment?? I know you're not keen on 'experts' Bob, but that's going a bit far...


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> Is that it, Democracy and immigration, those were the two issues that won it, the rest was just floss.


I'm pointing out lies told by the Leave campaign, not asking your opinion on what 'won it'. They did also tell lies about EU democracy and about the impact of immigration, if that helps though.



bobclive22 said:


> Cameron 2010
> 
> A European Union without Turkey at its heart was "not stronger but weaker... not more secure but less... not richer but poorer".
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... fears.html


What's your actual point though? I want to win the lottery, but I'm not sure that counts as evidence it's going to happen any time soon.


----------



## cheechy

Seriously whats the point in making in/out arguments now?

What the EU decides to do with Turkey (they wont be joining for decades if at all btw) is up to them. We wont be involved.


----------



## bobclive22

Can you believe the arrogance of this man.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06 ... ks-that-w/

The in vote lost so what do they do, according to the telegraph.

(1) sign a few petions calling for a re-run.
(2) infer that the 77,000 dodgy signatures were the work of hackers but not their hackers.


----------



## jamman

bobclive22 said:


> Can you believe my arrogance/ignorance


Yep :wink:


----------



## cheechy

bobclive22 said:


> Can you believe the arrogance of this man.
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06 ... ks-that-w/
> 
> The in vote lost so what do they do, according to the telegraph.
> 
> (1) sign a few petions calling for a re-run.
> (2) infer that the 77,000 dodgy signatures were the work of hackers but not their hackers.


He's pitching for a job - I was never a Blair supporter but its a bit far fetched to call it arrogant.

I dont think Enoch Powell is available tbh Bob so you might have to come up with some other alternatives 

For what its worth I wouldnt have thought he would be in contention after the chilcot report comes out.


----------



## John-H

I suspect Tony Blair believes Chilcot will not be too bad for him.

It will make a change of news - what was billed as a major scandal now hardly compares to cock up of the century though :roll:


----------



## A3DFU

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-36707086


----------



## bobclive22

> Did you seriously just post a Daily Mail reader comment?? I know you're not keen on 'experts' Bob, but that's going a bit far...


So that comment is crap because it is in the DM is it, well read this, especially the bit about the NHS you supercilious sod, that`s what you voted to remain for, is this also a lie.

Tiny Uruguay may not seem a likely front line in the war of the quit smoking brigade against Big Tobacco.

But the Latin American country has unwittingly found itself not just in the thick of that battle, but in the middle of an even bigger fight - that of the rising opposition to international free trade deals.

Philip Morris is suing Uruguay for increasing the size of the health warnings on cigarette packs, and for clamping down on tobacco companies' use of sub-brands like Malboro Red, Gold, Blue or Green which could give the impression some cigarettes are safe to smoke.

The litigation is allowed to be done in tribunals known as international-state dispute settlements (ISDS), ruled upon by lawyers under the auspices of the World Trade Organisation.

*Such an ISDS agreement is also core to the EU's planned Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) treaty being negotiated with the US.* The critics of TTIP fear the tribunals will see US multinationals sue European governments in such areas as regulating tobacco, health and safety, and quality controls.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/busin ... 07478.html


----------



## j8keith

John-H said:


> I suspect Tony Blair believes Chilcot will not be too bad for him.
> 
> It will make a change of news - what was billed as a major scandal now hardly compares to cock up of the century though :roll:


It is rumored that the Ecuadorian Embassy operates an open door policy. :roll:


----------



## John-H

Perhaps all our political elite should apply - it might be a bit cramped and they should be frisked for knives first :lol:


----------



## bobclive22

> I'm afraid you are completely misunderstanding the legal action Bob. The action is to uphold democracy against executive powers derived from monarchy - the action upholds the right of parliament to decide. This goes back to Cromwell and the right of parliament over that of the crown to determine policy and law.


You are obviously far more intellectually superior to me, I thought it was to allow parliament to overrule the will of the electorate by there being more MP`s supporting remain than leave and having parliament vote would probably overturn the present result I believe, slippery slope that one.


----------



## DTH

j8keith said:


> It is rumored that the Ecuadorian Embassy operates an open door policy. :roll:


I'd hope they draw a line somewhere.


----------



## John-H

bobclive22 said:


> I'm afraid you are completely misunderstanding the legal action Bob. The action is to uphold democracy against executive powers derived from monarchy - the action upholds the right of parliament to decide. This goes back to Cromwell and the right of parliament over that of the crown to determine policy and law.
> 
> 
> 
> You are obviously far more intellectually superior to me, I thought it was to allow parliament to overrule the will of the electorate by there being more MP`s supporting remain than leave and having parliament vote would probably overturn the present result I believe, slippery slop that one.
Click to expand...

You can't argue with the law on due process. There needs to be a framework otherwise we don't have rule of law. The fact that most MPs support the EU is irrelevant to that. You raise a political point. I counter that the referendum was advisory - not legally binding. It's only advisory on parliament not obligatory - if you look at the referendum act that's what it says.

We elect MPs to do a job of understanding the issues on our behalf and doing what's best. We don't know all the detail or understand the complexity. It's up to them until we unelect them - did you not appreciate that?

We have a representative democracy.


----------



## bobclive22

> You can't argue with the law on due process. There needs to be a framework otherwise we don't have rule of law. The fact that most MPs support the EU is irrelevant to that. You raise a political point. I counter that the referendum was advisory - not legally binding. It's only advisory on parliament not obligatory - if you look at the referendum act that's what it says.


If the MP`s vote it down I believe most will be looking for work after the next election, remember Glegg. As the majority of MP`s are career MP`s they will think long and hard before casting that vote.


----------



## Tangerine Knight

Hi john can I ask you,would you have quoted that the referendum was only advisory if the remain side had won and the leave not? Im getting a bit weary with all this it was advisory. I think that word suits because you lost but if the leavers had lost would you still be coining the same phrase.


----------



## bobclive22

> We elect MPs to do a job of understanding the issues on our behalf and doing what's best. We don't know all the detail or understand the complexity. It's up to them until we unelect them - did you not appreciate that?


John, *there is nothing to understand*, there are too many immigrants coming to the England in too shorter time, they are forcing wages down for the poorest and changing the British way of life, *not for the better*, I don`t blame them, I would do the same in their circumstances, I live in among it and experience it, that was the main reason I voted leave, *I don`t need a degree to understand it*, I see it, feel it and breath it, it effects me personally and millions of others north of the M25.


----------



## DTH

John-H said:


> We elect MPs to do a job of understanding the issues on our behalf and doing what's best. We don't know the detail or understand the complexity. It's up to them until we unelect them - did you not appreciate that?


I counter that MP's are elected to do the job of representing Joe Public.

You can't successfully argue that they should disregard something as definitive as a referendum because a certain number disagree / think the people who voted are a bit dim and don't understand the complexities of the consequences as clearly or intelligently as Remain voters.

The naysayers will say it wasn't definitive. It was. It is. I can appreciate that some people are unhappy and feel disenfranchised by the result.

The definition of a referendum is 
'a general vote by the electorate on a single political question which has been referred to them for a direct decision'

I don't see anything anywhere where the very definition of referendum is altered so that it says..

'a general vote by the electorate on a single political question which has been referred to them for a direct decision (however, if a certain number disagree / think the people who voted are a bit dim and don't understand the complexities of the consequences as clearly as themselves... you can have another go)'

If every single Leave voter explained their reasoning to vote they way they did in a well reasoned, sufficiently intellectual manner would that assuage the fear and anger of the Remain voter? I don't think so. At all.

(And just to be clear - *absolutely nobody* has to justify their vote to anyone)

Arguing points of law about why the Referendum is null and void is disingenuous and self serving.

The decision has been made and I restate my earlier comment that it's all over bar the shouting.


----------



## DTH

bobclive22 said:


> If the MP`s vote it down I believe most will be looking for work after the next election, remember Glegg. As the majority of MP`s are career MP`s they will think long and hard before casting that vote.


I absolutely agree.


----------



## Spandex

Given that a referendum simply gives a snapshot of public opinion at a given time, if people change their minds before the original referendum was enacted, wouldn't a 2nd referendum then be a more accurate representation of public feeling than the first?

So, if the referendum was democratic, would a 2nd referendum in the future (before we have evoked article 50) be any less democratic?


----------



## DTH

Spandex said:


> Given that a referendum simply gives a snapshot of public opinion at a given time, if people change their minds before the original referendum was enacted, wouldn't a 2nd referendum then be a more accurate representation of public feeling than the first?
> 
> So, if the referendum was democratic, would a 2nd referendum in the future (before we have evoked article 50) be any less democratic?


What you've said makes no sense - I can't actually find anything to respond to that with. Not because I'm dim, but because I don't want another keyboard warrior flame war, and anything I type will just seem like I'm having a go at you, again.

[_EDIT - Hang on - response below_]

Yes it's a snapshot - by the very nature of the event. But how many do we have? And who decides when to stop?

Sod it - I'm all for it - lets have another go.


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> So that comment is crap because it is in the DM is it


It's crap because it's a completely unsubstantiated reader comment. Hardly something to be treated as a reliable source of information. That it was a comment on the Daily Mail celebrity porn/racism site is just the final nail in the coffin.


bobclive22 said:


> well read this, especially the bit about the NHS you supercilious sod, that`s what you voted to remain for, is this also a lie.
> 
> Tiny Uruguay may not seem a likely front line in the war of the quit smoking brigade against Big Tobacco.
> 
> But the Latin American country has unwittingly found itself not just in the thick of that battle, but in the middle of an even bigger fight - that of the rising opposition to international free trade deals.
> 
> Philip Morris is suing Uruguay for increasing the size of the health warnings on cigarette packs, and for clamping down on tobacco companies' use of sub-brands like Malboro Red, Gold, Blue or Green which could give the impression some cigarettes are safe to smoke.
> 
> The litigation is allowed to be done in tribunals known as international-state dispute settlements (ISDS), ruled upon by lawyers under the auspices of the World Trade Organisation.
> 
> *Such an ISDS agreement is also core to the EU's planned Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) treaty being negotiated with the US.* The critics of TTIP fear the tribunals will see US multinationals sue European governments in such areas as regulating tobacco, health and safety, and quality controls.
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/busin ... 07478.html


Whilst I'm not a massive fan of TTIP, its ability to affect our health service are one of the Leave campaigns lies I mentioned earlier. TTIP would have to be ratified by all member states AND by our national parliament, and there is no reason why we would allow it without the NHS exemption which has been recommended.


----------



## A3DFU

Spandex said:


> bobclive22 said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Such an ISDS agreement is also core to the EU's planned Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) treaty being negotiated with the US.* The critics of TTIP fear the tribunals will see US multinationals sue European governments in such areas as regulating tobacco, health and safety, and quality controls.
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/busin ... 07478.html
> 
> 
> 
> Whilst I'm not a massive fan of TTIP, its ability to affect our health service are one of the Leave campaigns lies I mentioned earlier. TTIP would have to be ratified by all member states AND by our national parliament, and there is no reason why we would allow it without the NHS exemption which has been recommended.
Click to expand...

Today Brussels have decided to refer the vote about CETA, the Canadian trade agreement with the EU, to the individual parliaments of the EU member states.
They further suggested in the same news flash that as a result of that, talks about TTIP would be slowed down and, almost certainty, also be referred to the individual EU member states for votes in which any EU member state can of course veto it.

ZDF German news at 7:00pm local time
http://www.zdf.de/ZDFmediathek#/beitrag ... -Juli-2016


----------



## Spandex

DTH said:


> What you've said makes no sense - I can't actually find anything to respond to that with. Not because I'm dim, but because I don't want another keyboard warrior flame war, and anything I type will just seem like I'm having a go at you, again.
> 
> [_EDIT - Hang on - response below_]
> 
> Yes it's a snapshot - by the very nature of the event. But how many do we have? And who decides when to stop?
> 
> Sod it - I'm all for it - lets have another go.


How many? Who decides when to stop? No idea. Maybe it never stops. Maybe it's a regular assurance that we are still ok with staying in the EU, thus removing the need to vote strategically based on guesswork about possible future occurances (like Turkey eventually joining, etc, or increased political integration).

It was more a question about the logic of repeated referendums though, rather than a well formed proposal (which is why I didn't propose anything). I was questioning the notion that repeating the referendum was undemocratic. I would say that repeating a referendum when nothing had changed significantly since the last one is a little pointless, as you would expect the result to remain unchanged also. But if the situation changes significantly, you could argue it would be undemocratic not to revisit the vote.


----------



## John-H

Tangerine Knight said:


> Hi john can I ask you,would you have quoted that the referendum was only advisory if the remain side had won and the leave not? Im getting a bit weary with all this it was advisory. I think that word suits because you lost but if the leavers had lost would you still be coining the same phrase.


Hi Kurt,

I certainly would because it's a principal point. I have already said that if the referendum tipped slightly the other way and Remain won I would have said, "Phew, that was close. What a stupidly risky thing to do putting such a complex issue to a ley public."

I don't think single issue referenda, especially on a straight majority is any way to run a country. Certainly if it is done it should be ensured that the electorate is properly informed from an agreed data set of facts - not the distorted and disputed tissue of whoppers that came out and all the preemptive bias leading up to it.

If we had a referendum about hanging how would it go and how would you vote and what would be correct?


----------



## bobclive22

> Whilst I'm not a massive fan of TTIP, its ability to affect our health service are one of the Leave campaigns lies I mentioned earlier. TTIP would have to be ratified by all member states AND by our national parliament, and there is no reason why we would allow it without the NHS exemption which has been recommended.


So if it`s a lie why is the EU negotiating when it can`t implement it. If you read the article it scared the sh*t out of New Zealand (The tobacco giant's attack on Australia, which is ongoing, led New Zealand to U-turn on a decision to follow its bigger neighbour with plain packaging).

*For the NHS to be at risk, the Commission would have to be hiding something,* or (as has been argued) simply mistaken about whether there's a* loophole *in the terms it proposes. *That's something we can't be sure of until the final wording is put to the test.*

This is your favoured broadsheet I believe, perhaps they are also lying and it`s all done in secret, I wonder why?.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... peace-leak

As I said to you earlier you have dose of the (three monkey syndrome).

http://www.patients4nhs.org.uk/eu-us-fr ... t-or-ttip/


----------



## bobclive22

> I certainly would because it's a principal point. I have already said that if the referendum tipped slightly the other way and Remain won I would have said, "Phew, that was close. What a stupidly risky thing to do putting such a complex issue to a ley public."


For gods sake it`s not complex, Make your own laws and reduce immigration simples, even us northern plebs can understand this. Stop free movement of people across borders and only allow the UK parliament to make UK laws, that`s it, that`s what 17 million people voted for, can`t you understand that. They didn`t buy the economy rubbish as they saw the Scotts shafted with that one, every houshold to loose £4,300 if we leave, give me strength.


----------



## DTH

John-H said:


> If we had a referendum about hanging how would it go and how would you vote and what would be correct?


I disagree with you again John - the same point still stands - That's still just misdirection - and certainly leaning to the self serving agenda.

You've already said..


John-H said:


> I have already said that if the referendum tipped slightly the other way and Remain won I would have said, "Phew, that was close


And I infer from this you would have accepted the result - had it been Remain. That hasn't happened and that hasn't happened.

So I'll say again..



DTH said:


> You can't successfully argue that they should disregard something as definitive as a referendum because a certain number disagree / think the people who voted are a bit dim and don't understand the complexities of the consequences as clearly or intelligently as Remain voters.


And again I can appreciate that some people are unhappy and feel disenfranchised by the result, but this doesn't mean you can have another go or dismiss the result altogether - no matter how eloquently and passionate the prose used to support the notion.


----------



## DTH

John-H said:


> I don't think single issue referenda, especially on a straight majority is any way to run a country.


I'm sorry John - I simply don't believe you on that point. You're decrying Democracy to suit your point of view. That's just a nonsensical comment to make.


----------



## John-H

bobclive22 said:


> I certainly would because it's a principal point. I have already said that if the referendum tipped slightly the other way and Remain won I would have said, "Phew, that was close. What a stupidly risky thing to do putting such a complex issue to a ley public."
> 
> 
> 
> For gods sake it`s not complex, ...
Click to expand...

That must be the understatement of the century :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

(pause for breath)

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Oh no I've pulled a muscle

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

There goes another one

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## DTH

John-H said:


> :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


I'm seeing a lack of argumental merit here John, Just more denigration. Poor show.


----------



## Tangerine Knight

John,We have spent many a cold wet day in a field somewhere at the NW meets so we have a decent understanding of each other. I would argue if it was only advisory then why send me a polling card,why make me go to the polling station (or postal vote) cast my vote in the box one piece of paper that did not say this is advisory it asked me a straight question leave or remain.I then placed it in a sealed ballot box which at the end of the day was taken by the local authority to a counting station where the votes were counted and possibly scrutinised and had a heavy police presence to ensure there was no trouble. Why not just send me a questionnaire with a self addressed return envelope with a question in it asking how many in the house and who wants to leave and who wants to remain that would to me be more advisory.
For your info john I voted not because of immigration but because the the fact the EU has become something my parents and grand parents did not buy into they bought into a trade agreement deal and the ability to trade with other like minded nations. They did not buy into what size hoover motor they must have numerous unnecessary 20 mph speed limits where they are not needed the list goes on.
As far as the legal challenge goes the barristers have contacted the Whitehall legal team to discuss the implementation of article 50 as far as Im concerned they are not doing it for free its not a no win no fee case (albeit they have possibly reduced there fees) so they get paid there not bothered who wins so long as they get paid .. You could possibly argue they are only one step up from glorified ambulance chasers. PS hope you keeping OK.


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> So if it`s a lie why is the EU negotiating when it can`t implement it. If you read the article it scared the sh*t out of New Zealand (The tobacco giant's attack on Australia, which is ongoing, led New Zealand to U-turn on a decision to follow its bigger neighbour with plain packaging).
> 
> *For the NHS to be at risk, the Commission would have to be hiding something,* or (as has been argued) simply mistaken about whether there's a* loophole *in the terms it proposes. *That's something we can't be sure of until the final wording is put to the test.*
> 
> This is your favoured broadsheet I believe, perhaps they are also lying and it`s all done in secret, I wonder why?.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... peace-leak
> 
> As I said to you earlier you have dose of the (three monkey syndrome).
> 
> http://www.patients4nhs.org.uk/eu-us-fr ... t-or-ttip/


Why do you believe the Guardian is my favourite broadsheet??? Anyway, The EU has said it will include exemptions and our own government will have full veto rights if that doesn't happen.

I don't mind discussing the possibilities of something happening (although I think the fullfact.org article you've quoted without reference does this perfectly well), I'm not going to sit here debating this from the standpoint that it definitely will happen so we need to leave the EU to protect ourselves.


----------



## Spandex

Tangerine Knight said:


> I would argue if it was only advisory then why send me a polling card,why make me go to the polling station (or postal vote) cast my vote in the box one piece of paper that did not say this is advisory it asked me a straight question leave or remain.I then placed it in a sealed ballot box which at the end of the day was taken by the local authority to a counting station where the votes were counted and possibly scrutinised and had a heavy police presence to ensure there was no trouble. Why not just send me a questionnaire with a self addressed return envelope with a question in it asking how many in the house and who wants to leave and who wants to remain that would to me be more advisory.


Referendums in the UK have never been legally binding because our parliament is sovereign (despite claims to the opposite). Cameron gave assurances that the result of this referendum would be respected, but that's a political position not a legal one, so his sudden resignation has thrown a bit of a spanner in the works. Now it relies on future government to decide whether or not to respect the referendum decision. For what it's worth I think it would be wrong to simply overrule the result, but I also think that if the situation changes significantly over the next 6-12 months (assuming we don't enact A50 before then) a further referendum would be justified.


Tangerine Knight said:


> numerous unnecessary 20 mph speed limits where they are not needed.


Have to say, this is a new one on me... The EU never had a say on our speed limits. The only reference I can find is a slightly inflammatory Daily Mail article many years ago implying it was going to happen, despite it only being a suggestion from one member of the commission which never went any further. I'd file this in the 'bendy bananas' bin if I were you.


----------



## DTH

John-H said:


> Certainly if it is done it should be ensured that the electorate is properly informed from an agreed data set of facts - not the distorted and disputed tissue of whoppers that came out and all the preemptive bias leading up to it.


Again John - I disagree with your comment - it has no basis in fact. I would suggest it's yet another trite comment that is ostensibly defendable but lacking in research.

You have absolutely no Idea of the _dataset_ used as the basis of all, some, the majority, or indeed any of the Leave voters. 
In fact, I also suggest that the Majority of the Electorate were properly informed, everybody had access to the same information John.

Or are we back to the dim, uneducated view of the Leave voter so strongly espoused by passionate, disenfranchised Remain voters?


----------



## Spandex

DTH said:


> John-H said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think single issue referenda, especially on a straight majority is any way to run a country.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry John - I simply don't believe you on that point. You're decrying Democracy to suit your point of view. That's just a nonsensical comment to make.
Click to expand...

Nonsensical? It's not only sensible, it's the very basis of our democracy. We live in a representive democracy which is the precise reason why direct democracy via referendum is so incredibly rare in this country. It is also very rare with referendums to use a straight majority to make decisions which have wide-ranging effects on the entire country.


----------



## Tangerine Knight

numerous unnecessary 20 mph speed limits where they are not needed.[/quote]
Have to say, this is a new one on me... The EU never had a say on our speed limits. The only reference I can find is a slightly inflammatory Daily Mail article many years ago implying it was going to happen, despite it only being a suggestion from one member of the commission which never went any further. I'd file this in the 'bendy bananas' bin if I were you.[/quote]

I can only go on what we were told by our bosses when we were being issued with the new endorsable fixed penalty tickets to issue people with when they were captured not that any of our kit was calibrated anyway.
In fact the question was Who's come up with this pearl of wisdom? The reply from the boss was its come from the EU so if I'm miss informed I'll stand corrected.


----------



## DTH

Spandex said:


> DTH said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> John-H said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think single issue referenda, especially on a straight majority is any way to run a country.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry John - I simply don't believe you on that point. You're decrying Democracy to suit your point of view. That's just a nonsensical comment to make.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nonsensical? It's not only sensible, it's the very basis of our democracy. We live in a representive democracy which is the precise reason why direct democracy via referendum is so incredibly rare in this country. It is also very rare with referendums to use a straight majority to make decisions which have wide-ranging effects on the entire country.
Click to expand...

I think you missed the point of why I disagree with John's comment.

Having a referendum is not running the country it's a general vote by the electorate on a single political question which has been referred to them for a direct decision.


----------



## Spandex

Tangerine Knight said:


> I can only go on what we were told by our bosses when we were being issued with the new endorsable fixed penalty tickets to issue people with when they were captured not that any of our kit was calibrated anyway.
> In fact the question was Who's come up with this pearl of wisdom? The reply from the boss was its come from the EU so if I'm miss informed I'll stand corrected.


I looked on the EU site and they're very clear that speed limits are left to member states. Pity, because I think we'd all like German autobahn limits for our motorways. :wink:


----------



## John-H

DTH said:


> John-H said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think single issue referenda, especially on a straight majority is any way to run a country.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry John - I simply don't believe you on that point. You're decrying Democracy to suit your point of view. That's just a nonsensical comment to make.
Click to expand...

You don't believe me on that point? Really? We have a representative democracy for a reason. That reason is generally accepted to be that a direct democracy is unworkable. As A C Grayling said:



> Consider: suppose that every item of proposed legislation were decided by referendums, which would therefore occur very frequently. Bills on health and safety in manufacturing industry, on reform of higher education, on the use of chemicals in water treatment plants, on regulation of air traffic over the nation's airports - bills proposed by government and drafted in detail by civil servants - would be presented to the public, who would then vote. Would that work?
> 
> Very obviously, not. The expertise, patience and time that most of the public could bring to the task would be extremely limited; the lack of expertise, especially, would be a serious, perhaps disastrous, handicap. And very soon turnouts in referendums would plummet to single figures, rendering their democratic value nugatory


You think that would work?


----------



## Tangerine Knight

Spandex said:


> Tangerine Knight said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can only go on what we were told by our bosses when we were being issued with the new endorsable fixed penalty tickets to issue people with when they were captured not that any of our kit was
> calibrated anyway.
> In fact the question was Who's come up with this pearl of wisdom? The reply from the boss was its come
> from the EU so if I'm miss informed I'll stand corrected.
> 
> 
> 
> I looked on the EU site and they're very clear that speed limits are
> left to member states. Pity, because I think we'd all like German autobahn limits for our motorways. :wink:
Click to expand...

Just spoke to someone who I worked with we were told it was part of the European best practice standard for speed limits but again I'm not looking for a heated debate on it if I'm wrong then I'll fall on my sword.


----------



## John-H

DTH said:


> John-H said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think single issue referenda, especially on a straight majority is any way to run a country.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry John - I simply don't believe you on that point. You're decrying Democracy to suit your point of view. That's just a nonsensical comment to make.
Click to expand...




DTH said:


> Spandex said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nonsensical? It's not only sensible, it's the very basis of our democracy. We live in a representive democracy which is the precise reason why direct democracy via referendum is so incredibly rare in this country. It is also very rare with referendums to use a straight majority to make decisions which have wide-ranging effects on the entire country.
> 
> 
> 
> I think you missed the point of why I disagree with John's comment.
> 
> Having a referendum is not running the country it's a general vote by the electorate on a single political question which has been referred to them for a direct decision.
Click to expand...

When only 22% of the electorate say they understood the issues "well or very well" you tell me what the margin of error on the result should be? You think the decision is sound? How safe is that? How workable is that as a method of sound government?


----------



## DTH

John-H said:


> DTH said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> John-H said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think single issue referenda, especially on a straight majority is any way to run a country.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry John - I simply don't believe you on that point. You're decrying Democracy to suit your point of view. That's just a nonsensical comment to make.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You don't believe me on that point? Really? We have a representative democracy for a reason. That reason is generally accepted to be that a direct democracy is unworkable. As A C Grayling said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Consider: suppose that every item of proposed legislation were decided by referendums, which would therefore occur very frequently. Bills on health and safety in manufacturing industry, on reform of higher education, on the use of chemicals in water treatment plants, on regulation of air traffic over the nation's airports - bills proposed by government and drafted in detail by civil servants - would be presented to the public, who would then vote. Would that work?
> 
> Very obviously, not. The expertise, patience and time that most of the public could bring to the task would be extremely limited; the lack of expertise, especially, would be a serious, perhaps disastrous, handicap. And very soon turnouts in referendums would plummet to single figures, rendering their democratic value nugatory
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You think that would work?
Click to expand...

Thats just another misdirection John - And yes - I do think you are intentionaly, eloquently it must be said, confusing the issues here.

You're plainly saying that for a single referendum to be a good thing - a referendum on all proposed legislation must also be a good idea.

You're postulating that one part of something has to be applied to all, or other, parts of it, or that the whole must apply to its parts.

I'm afraid I do read between the lines.


----------



## Spandex

DTH said:


> I think you missed the point of why I disagree with John's comment.
> 
> Having a referendum is not running the country it's a general vote by the electorate on a single political question which has been referred to them for a direct decision.


'Running the country' is a series of decisions, regardless of who makes them. A referendum is no less 'running the country' than if parliament were to make that decision for us.

As John describes above, there are very good reasons why we have a representative democracy so it's hardly decrying democracy to say that a referendum on a straight majority is a bad way to do things. Our definition of democracy is based entirely on not asking the people to make direct decisions.


----------



## DTH

John-H said:


> When only 22% of the electorate say they understood the issues "well or very well" you tell me what the margin of error on the result should be? You think the decision is sound? How safe is that? How workable is that as a method of sound government?


Was that 22% of the Remain voters alone? Or was that 22% of all who took part?


----------



## John-H

DTH said:


> John-H said:
> 
> 
> 
> Certainly if it is done it should be ensured that the electorate is properly informed from an agreed data set of facts - not the distorted and disputed tissue of whoppers that came out and all the preemptive bias leading up to it.
> 
> 
> 
> Again John - I disagree with your comment - it has no basis in fact. I would suggest it's yet another trite comment that is ostensibly defendable but lacking in research.
> 
> You have absolutely no Idea of the _dataset_ used as the basis of all, some, the majority, or indeed any of the Leave voters.
> In fact, I also suggest that the Majority of the Electorate were properly informed, everybody had access to the same information John.
> 
> Or are we back to the dim, uneducated view of the Leave voter so strongly espoused by passionate, disenfranchised Remain voters?
Click to expand...

I take it you have.not seen this then which gives a pretty good summary?


----------



## Spandex

Tangerine Knight said:


> Just spoke to someone who I worked with we were told it was part of the European best practice standard for speed limits but again I'm not looking for a heated debate on it if I'm wrong then I'll fall on my sword.


Don't worry, no heated debate needed. My tongue in cheek comment about the autobahn was actually a serious point - if the EU was setting national speed limits, you wouldn't see the variety in limits that exist across the EU.

But anyway, this is the site I found which makes it clear that there are no EU recomendations for road limits:

http://ec.europa.eu/transport/road_safe ... ies_en.htm


----------



## DTH

John-H said:


> I take it you have.not seen this then which gives a pretty good summary?
Click to expand...

No John I have not.

I tend to do my own research to determine the facts for myself - as a rule I ignore things that people wave in front of me to further their agenda.


----------



## John-H

DTH said:


> John-H said:
> 
> 
> 
> :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm seeing a lack of argumental merit here John, Just more denigration. Poor show.
Click to expand...

Sometimes you need a lighter reaction. But the point is a serious one - leaving the EU involves unravelling 40 years of harmonised legislation and agreement and setting up something to take its place You think that is simple?


----------



## DTH

John-H said:


> DTH said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> John-H said:
> 
> 
> 
> :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm seeing a lack of argumental merit here John, Just more denigration. Poor show.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sometimes you need a lighter reaction. But the point is a serious one - leaving the EU involves unravelling 40 years of harmonised legislation and agreement and setting up something to take its place You think that is simple?
Click to expand...

Almost a good swerve John - Good Job you drive a 4WD car that can help out when you need it to, (did everyone see what I did there?)

I think you know me a little better by now John - I don't think it's simple at all.

But - seeing as we've all got our quote hats on...

As John F Kennedy said.

'....We choose to go to the Moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard; because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one we intend to win ...'


----------



## John-H

DTH said:


> John-H said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I take it you have.not seen this then which gives a pretty good summary?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No John I have not.
> 
> I tend to do my own research to determine the facts for myself - as a rule I ignore things that people wave in front of me to further their agenda.
Click to expand...

I have read most things presented as far as I'm aware and to ensure that I am aware.

Professor Michael Dougan featured in the video said to MPs today - The leave campaigners: Like most idealogs they only see the things they want to see and only hear the things they want to hear.


----------



## DTH

John-H said:


> Professor Michael Dougan featured in the video said to MPs today - The leave campaigners: Like most idealogs they only see the things they want to see and only hear the things they want to hear.


That works both ways John. The only part that anyone reasonable can agree with in the above comment is below



John-H said:


> [... Like most idealogs they only see the things they want to see and only hear the things they want to hear.


----------



## John-H

DTH said:


> John-H said:
> 
> 
> 
> Professor Michael Dougan featured in the video said to MPs today - The leave campaigners: Like most idealogs they only see the things they want to see and only hear the things they want to hear.
> 
> 
> 
> That works both ways John. The only part that anyone reasonable can agree with in the above comment is below
> 
> 
> 
> John-H said:
> 
> 
> 
> [... Like most idealogs they only see the things they want to see and only hear the things they want to hear.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

It doesn't work both ways if you don't watch the video. I urge you to watch Michael Dougan's video and if you have something more for me to watch that I haven't seen already then let me know and we can come back and compare notes I can't say fairer than that.


----------



## bobclive22

> That must be the understatement of the century :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> (pause for breath)
> 
> :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> Oh no I've pulled a muscle
> 
> :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> There goes another one
> 
> :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


The negations might be complex but the vote wasn`t, well wasn`t for me, *might have been for you*. [smiley=gossip.gif] 
.


----------



## jamman

Bob are you 7 or 75 grow up son

(and learn to quote properly)


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> The negations might be complex but the vote wasn`t, well wasn`t for me, *might have been for you*. [smiley=gossip.gif]
> .


The age of anti-intellectualism is truly upon us. Bob, the proto-brexiter, is now actually mocking people for concerning themselves with the actual complexities of our position in the EU before making a decision.

The referendum wasn't a question about your ideology, it was a practical, real-world question where you're asked to make a pragmatic choice between two imperfect options.


----------



## jamman

What fantastic news I would love to hear Bob's opinion on it

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36721689

Let me guess.....

"Doesn't matter as long as we get rid of those horrible Eastern Europeans that's what it's all about"

"The economy no I didn't really think about that, doesn't matter"

"Rivers of blood, rivers of blood"


----------



## A3DFU

jamman said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36721689


Yes.Brilliant that; not  And Sterling is also still falling [smiley=bigcry.gif]

I always hoped I could retire at 70 or so. With ££££s wiped off the shares I'd saved for when I retire, I will now have to chase clients around the gym until 80 or so.
Ah well, at least I'm fit and healthy to do so :?


----------



## bobclive22

'No. No. No.'

We have not successfully rolled back the frontiers of the state in Britain, *only to see them re-imposed at a European level, with a European super-state exercising a new dominance from Brussels,* Mrs Thatcher declared.

Margaret Thatcher is rated as the 5th out of the top ten Prime ministers of all time.

Seems she would have voted exit.


----------



## cheechy

jamman said:


> What fantastic news I would love to hear Bob's opinion on it
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36721689
> 
> Let me guess.....
> 
> "Doesn't matter as long as we get rid of those horrible Eastern Europeans that's what it's all about"
> 
> "The economy no I didn't really think about that, doesn't matter"
> 
> "Rivers of blood, rivers of blood"


Think Bob said he was "OK jack" as he has a rather healthy property portfolio. Well maybe not quite as healthy as it was but its all fine. Markets will be back up next week...or week after...maybe week after that.

It's a good job we voted leave with that plan in place otherwise we'd have been in deep doo-doo :lol:

If I didn't laugh I'd cry. [smiley=bigcry.gif]


----------



## John-H

bobclive22 said:


> 'No. No. No.'
> 
> We have not successfully rolled back the frontiers of the state in Britain, *only to see them re-imposed at a European level, with a European super-state exercising a new dominance from Brussels,* Mrs Thatcher declared.
> 
> Margaret Thatcher is rated as the 5th out of the top ten Prime ministers of all time.
> 
> Seems she would have voted exit.


I'm pretty sure she would not have risked trashing the economy and splitting up the UK Bob. That letter is rather old. If it's so convincing perhaps it could be waved at all the people pulling their money out of the UK right now so they change their minds.


----------



## bobclive22

> The age of anti-intellectualism is truly upon us. Bob, the proto-brexiter, is now actually mocking people for concerning themselves with the actual complexities of our position in the EU before making a decision.
> 
> The referendum wasn't a question about your ideology, it was a practical, real-world question where you're asked to make a pragmatic choice between two imperfect options


Exactly, * stay and take more of the same or take a chance and go for it *.
I have always took a chance, if I had stayed in my engineering job I probably would be on a *state pension with added state help*. As it was at 25 I took a chance and bought a small shop, it didn`t pay but I also bought the freehold which did, changed tack and took a course in bricklaying, built some houses and made money. I now live in a large detached house in a very pleasant area and NO mortgage since I was 30, am now 75, I rent out houses and have enough cash to see my days out. I certainly won`t have to downsize to survive.

I had two choices in those early days, everyone had the same two choices in the referendum, take a chance to have a more prosperous life or live with what you have, obviously those voters north of the M25 felt they had nothing to loose and voted leave.


----------



## bobclive22

> I'm pretty sure she would not have risked trashing the economy and splitting up the UK Bob. That letter is rather old. If it's so convincing perhaps it could be waved at all the people pulling their money out of the UK right now so they change their minds.


How much lower will GBPUSD drop?

The problem on this pair is the US Election is not far away which is bound to lead to uncertainty on the exchange rate. The prospect of a Trump Presidency has in my mind not been properly factored into the dollar. The Brexit vote also makes a US Interest rate hike less likely which I feel is not being reflected on the pair. I expect this rate to *trade between 1.30 - 1.40 until August before moving back to 1.40-1.50 August to September.* From there the picture is less clear but a *move back above 1.50 could not be ruled out.* If you have any USD transfers to consider the USD is almost at a 30 year high against the pound.

To understand the latest movements please email me Jonathan on [email protected]


----------



## bobclive22

http://capx.co/what-margaret-thatcher-r ... ut-brexit/


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> Exactly, * stay and take more of the same or take a chance and go for it *.
> I have always took a chance, if I had stayed in my engineering job I probably would be on a *state pension with added state help*. As it was at 25 I took a chance and bought a small shop, it didn`t pay but I also bought the freehold which did, changed tack and took a course in bricklaying, built some houses and made money. I now live in a large detached house in a very pleasant area and NO mortgage since I was 30, am now 75, I rent out houses and have enough cash to see my days out. I certainly won`t have to downsize to survive.
> 
> I had two choices in those early days, everyone had the same two choices in the referendum, take a chance to have a more prosperous life or live with what you have, obviously those voters north of the M25 felt they had nothing to loose and voted leave.


So, you basically gambled with other people's futures while yours was secure. Nice.


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> http://capx.co/what-margaret-thatcher-really-thought-about-brexit/


Finally, you've seen sense and are arguing in favour of staying in the EU!


----------



## John-H

bobclive22 said:


> The age of anti-intellectualism is truly upon us. Bob, the proto-brexiter, is now actually mocking people for concerning themselves with the actual complexities of our position in the EU before making a decision.
> 
> The referendum wasn't a question about your ideology, it was a practical, real-world question where you're asked to make a pragmatic choice between two imperfect options
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly, * stay and take more of the same or take a chance and go for it *.
> I have always took a chance, if I had stayed in my engineering job I probably would be on a *state pension with added state help*. As it was at 25 I took a chance and bought a small shop, it didn`t pay but I also bought the freehold which did, changed tack and took a course in bricklaying, built some houses and made money. I now live in a large detached house in a very pleasant area and NO mortgage since I was 30, am now 75, I rent out houses and have enough cash to see my days out. I certainly won`t have to downsize to survive.
> 
> I had two choices in those early days, everyone had the same two choices in the referendum, take a chance to have a more prosperous life or live with what you have, obviously those voters north of the M25 felt they had nothing to loose and voted leave.
Click to expand...

You missed out that the chance was also to lose what you have.

Optimism seems to be a thing you can afford to have Bob because you have no personal risk as you say. It's most other people that face the prospect of a poorer future.


----------



## Spandex

John-H said:


> You missed out that the chance was also to lose what you have.
> 
> Optimism seems to be a thing you can afford to have Bob because you have no personal risk as you say. It's most other people that face the prospect of a poorer future.


What's particularly annoying about his attitude is that he not only took a chance that had no personal risk to himself, he made the decision that the rest of the country should take that chance too, many of whom *do* have something to lose.

Gambling with other people's money. I can see why it was an easy vote for him.


----------



## Trouble4

> stay and take more of the same or take a chance and go for it


it seems more Brit's are wanting to take a chance with their money to get back their Country when it comes to

immigration some fishing/aggie laws/problems ....... does that sound right ?????????


----------



## Spandex

Trouble4 said:


> stay and take more of the same or take a chance and go for it
> 
> 
> 
> it seems more Brit's are wanting to take a chance with their money to get back their Country when it comes to
> 
> immigration some fishing/aggie laws/problems ....... does that sound right ?????????
Click to expand...

That may have been how they imagined it, yes. I suspect though, that the reality will leave a large percentage questioning why they took the risk. Unfortunately the politicians who persuaded them to choose will be long gone by then.


----------



## A3DFU

Brexit: 325 Tory MPs fail to turn up for House of Commons vote to guarantee EU nationals the right to remain in UK.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 24341.html


----------



## Spandex

One of the funniest referendum tweets so far:


----------



## A3DFU

:lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## John-H

:lol: It might just work!


----------



## bobclive22

> as long as we get rid of those horrible Eastern Europeans that's what it's all about"


*It`s nothing to do with race and you bloody well know that,* it`s to do with vast numbers of unskilled labour flooding into the UK and driving down wages.



> So, you basically gambled with other people's futures while yours was secure. Nice


I will repeat this,

I had two choices in those early days, everyone had the same two choices in the referendum, take a chance to have a more prosperous life or live with what you have, obviously those voters north of the M25 felt they had nothing to loose and voted leave.

If the young felt the referendum was so important to their future they should have voted instead of playing with their Iphones.


----------



## jamman

But to you it does

I will just leave this here for you.....



bobclive22 said:


> Be interesting to see how your daughter fares in a class with pupils speaking half a dozen different languages.


Ignorance is bliss.

She got 10/10 for her spelling yesterday not bad for a half Polish half South African "******", just so you get the picture Bob.

Your narrowed minded prejudices/bigoted views make me want to hurl.


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> I will repeat this,
> 
> I had two choices in those early days, everyone had the same two choices in the referendum, take a chance to have a more prosperous life or live with what you have, obviously those voters north of the M25 felt they had nothing to loose and voted leave.
> 
> If the young felt the referendum was so important to their future they should have voted instead of playing with their Ipones.


You took a risk once and it paid off. Cool story. Now can you explain what the hell that has to do with the referendum?

If someone thought they had nothing to lose, then I'm afraid that just shows they're not very bright. If you live in a region that has suffered because of previous governments austerity and general lack of investment, then to vote for an option that is basically guaranteed to cause more cuts and austerity (even the Leave campaign admit this) is just about the dumbest thing you can do.

Unfortunately, none of them will have to take my word for it because a new government is on its way that will educate them about exactly what they have to lose, using a neoliberalist programme of cuts, austerity, privatisation and financial deregulation that will help the rich get richer at the expense of all the people who naively thought it couldn't get any worse. And because the architects of this monostrous cock-up have all done a runner, this government will be able to do whatever they want whilst blaming the whole situation on something they didn't choose.


----------



## A3DFU

bobclive22 said:


> it`s to do with vast numbers of unskilled labour flooding into the UK and driving down wages.


Wouldn't it be better to sort out the benefit system stopping young girls having children from (often different) fathers then living on the state?
I know what I'm talking about: the mother of my grandson left my son (the father) when my grandson was 1 month old and moved straight into a council house twice as big as the one my son could afford at the time. She soon had another child from ??? she says she doesn't know who the father is (certainly NOT my son!). All this woman ever wanted was children so the state could pay for her to stay at home. She hasn't worked a day in her life at the age of 30!

That's a problem that needs to be sorted; not the people who come into this country doing work that no one here wants to do!


----------



## A3DFU

Translated loosely from German into English my mum used to say:

"When the donkey feels too well and is too happy it goes onto thin ice".
[where it will break through of course and drown]

This is exactly what we are seeing now. Peace Europe since the second world war. Great Britain was doing very well financially and was respected within the EU having a right to veto anything they wanted to. All of that is (may be) a thing of the past now.


----------



## jamman

I take it you thought better of your PM to me :wink:


----------



## John-H

Spandex said:


> bobclive22 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I will repeat this,
> 
> I had two choices in those early days, everyone had the same two choices in the referendum, take a chance to have a more prosperous life or live with what you have, obviously those voters north of the M25 felt they had nothing to loose and voted leave.
> 
> If the young felt the referendum was so important to their future they should have voted instead of playing with their Ipones.
> 
> 
> 
> You took a risk once and it paid off. Cool story. Now can you explain what the hell that has to do with the referendum?
> 
> If someone thought they had nothing to lose, then I'm afraid that just shows they're not very bright. If you live in a region that has suffered because of previous governments austerity and general lack of investment, then to vote for an option that is basically guaranteed to cause more cuts and austerity (even the Leave campaign admit this) is just about the dumbest thing you can do.
> 
> Unfortunately, none of them will have to take my word for it because a new government is on its way that will educate them about exactly what they have to lose, using a neoliberalist programme of cuts, austerity, privatisation and financial deregulation that will help the rich get richer at the expense of all the people who naively thought it couldn't get any worse. And because the architects of this monostrous cock-up have all done a runner, this government will be able to do whatever they want whilst blaming the whole situation on something they didn't choose.
Click to expand...

A very eloquent summary of a very likely outcome - unless we pull back from the a abyss in time.


----------



## bobclive22

> That's a problem that needs to be sorted; not the people who come into this country doing work that no one here wants to do!


Perhaps it`s the sort of contracts they are forced to sign, 127 hours per year and zero rate all because of this cheap EU labour, you can`t plan your life on that sort of employment.

If this referendum was first past the post it would have given an even larger majority for leave, I don`t hear this level of bleating regarding the general election result where the Conservative victory in 2015 was secured with the votes of *less than a quarter of registered voters (24.3%), and 36.9% of votes cast, *

Had last year's election been fought on a proportional system, *Ukip would have had 82 seats* therefor both systems would have given a leave result. *If the young are so p***ed off about the result they should have voted,* get over it and move on.


----------



## cheechy

I'm happy to move on Bob when someone tells me how they are going to fix my pension, savings and under threat job prospects.

Don't you get it...it's not just leave but the fact there is a void of government and no plan.

What can I move on _ with _?

Oh and democracy as you keep quoting is also about having a voice without fear of recrimination. IMO you are being a hypocrite - sorry!

The people who voted remain need to keep reminding the government they are here to ensure the best possible outcome for the country, irrespective of the vote.

Get over it!


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> If this referendum was first past the post it would have given an even larger majority for leave, I don`t hear this level of bleating regarding the general election result where the Conservative victory in 2015 was secured with the votes of *less than a quarter of registered voters (24.3%), and 36.9% of votes cast, *


That's the second time I've seen someone post that FPtP nonsense on a forum and frankly Bob, it just goes to show your grasp of logic.

The referendum WAS first past the post. Everyone was voting between the same two choices and the one with the most votes won (i.e. the one that was first past the post). The reason FPtP is controversial in a general election is because everyone ISN'T voting on the same thing - they're voting on a local MP, so a large constituency ends up with the same power as a small one and all the losing votes count for nothing. But when you expand it to one giant constituency (the UK) voting on a single choice, that controversy disappears. Unless of course you're a moron and you try to badly mash up two different voting concepts in the hope you can make a tiny majority seem more impressive. Sigh.

Oh, and there is just as much 'bleating' after every general election about how few people have actually chosen our government. Maybe you need to read more than one 'newspaper'.


----------



## John-H

cheechy said:


> I'm happy to move on Bob when someone tells me how they are going to fix my pension, savings and under threat job prospects.
> 
> Don't you get it...it's not just leave but the fact there is a void of government and no plan.
> 
> What can I move on _ with _?
> 
> Oh and democracy as you keep quoting is also about having a voice without fear of recrimination. IMO you are being a hypocrite - sorry!
> 
> The people who voted remain need to keep reminding the government they are here to ensure the best possible outcome for the country, irrespective of the vote.
> 
> Get over it!


So this is debated properly and we are not thrown into further and irrevocable chaos by precipitate executive action, before a proper debate and plan of action in parliament, a letter has been sent to the government to question its position over article 50 notification. This is the crowd funded action started by Jo Maugham QC:

https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/statu ... wsrc%5Etfw

This is separate to the Mishcon de Reya pre-emptive action - the legal firm retaining the services of Lord Pannick QC and Rhodri Thompson QC amongst other others and now challenging the government on behalf of interested clients as reported here: 
https://www.theguardian.com/law/2016/ju ... ay-lawyers
Support page here: https://sites-mishcon.vuturevx.com/9/42 ... s/form.asp?

In case you can't read the crowd funded link on Twitter here is a concatenated scan ...


----------



## Spandex

Whilst I understand the desire to grab onto anything that looks like a way out of this mess, I don't think the legal aspect is really the right way to go. Not because I think it's technically wrong, but because I think it won't produce a different result. Parliament will vote along the lines of the referendum result even if they don't agree with leaving the EU, because they won't want to be seen to be undemocratic.

That's why I think the only 'solution' is to delay any parliamentary decision on A50 for as long as possible while negotiating as hard as possible - then once the landscape has changed significantly, it would be sensible to seek a new referendum based on the new options. For example what if the EU, in a desperate bid to keep the union together, allowed us to manage our own borders? Changes like that would render the previous referendum irrelevant.


----------



## Spaceman10

Guys 
Why o why can't people just take it one side losed and one side won.
Let's all move on 
taking that the eu is about to crash, Germany are now asking for there own referendum, France is on its last legs 
The euro Is a dead duck other members have put up fences to stop people coming into there country's 
I think we did the right thing 
This was in the express today 
Remain campaigners will NOT get a second referendum after Cameron officially bins proposal
DAVID Cameron has binned a call for a second Brexit referendum - despite an official petition which received 4.1million signatures.
And this 
GERMANS DEMAND EU REFERENDUM: Merkel told to not be 'arrogant' and hold Brussels vote
ANGELA Merkel is facing a nightmare scenario after a leading German MP said Berlin needs to hold an EU Referendum.
Time to move on guys


----------



## bobclive22

> Parliament will vote along the lines of the referendum result even if they don't agree with leaving the EU, because they won't want to be seen to be undemocratic.


*No, they will vote that way to keep their jobs.*



> That's why I think the only 'solution' is to delay any parliamentary decision on A50 for as long as possible while negotiating as hard as possible - then once the landscape has changed significantly, it would be sensible to seek a new referendum based on the new options. For example what if the EU, in a desperate bid to keep the union together,* allowed us to manage our own borders? *Changes like that would render the previous referendum irrelevant.


*Allowed us to manage our own borders*, if you mean restrict the numbers of immigrants arriving from the EU and only allow those with the skills needed, that`s half of what the exit voters wanted, *no* more laws enacted in the EU that effect the UK is the other half, agree those and I may vote remain if there was to be another referendum.


----------



## A3DFU

Spaceman10 said:


> Germany are now asking for there own referendum
> GERMANS DEMAND EU REFERENDUM: Merkel told to not be 'arrogant' and hold Brussels vote
> ANGELA Merkel is facing a nightmare scenario after a leading German MP said Berlin needs to hold an EU Referendum.


Proof please (and not any articles of the Sun or daily mail).

I watch the main 5pm, 7pm and 9:45pm German news every day and I assure you that nothing like that has ever been reported on any of the German news.

Interesting that you know more than the German news presenters :roll:


----------



## leopard

bobclive22 said:


> Parliament will vote along the lines of the referendum result even if they don't agree with leaving the EU, because they won't want to be seen to be undemocratic.
> 
> 
> 
> *No, they will vote that way to keep their jobs.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's why I think the only 'solution' is to delay any parliamentary decision on A50 for as long as possible while negotiating as hard as possible - then once the landscape has changed significantly, it would be sensible to seek a new referendum based on the new options. For example what if the EU, in a desperate bid to keep the union together,* allowed us to manage our own borders? *Changes like that would render the previous referendum irrelevant.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *Allowed us to manage our own borders*, if you mean restrict the numbers of immigrants arriving from the EU and only allow those with the skills needed, that`s half of what the exit voters wanted, *no* more laws enacted in the EU that effect the UK is the other half, agree those and I may vote remain if there was to be another referendum.
Click to expand...

+ 1 and allow the UK to manage their own money and not have to pay in and I'd vote to remain as well


----------



## Spaceman10

The express
MERKEL'S WORST NIGHTMARE: Germany calls for Referendum as 'people want to be free of EU'

BELEAGUERED Angela Merkel is facing calls for a referendum to free German people of "EU slavery" in the wake of Britain's sensational decision to cut ties with Brussels.

By REBECCA PERRING
PUBLISHED: 03:09, Sun, Jul 3, 2016 | UPDATED: 09:10, Sun, Jul 3, 2016

It may be right or may be wrong but people are starting to talk and want other thing than the EU.
That's what people need to take on board.


----------



## leopard

The Dutch will be next as they're desperate to get out.


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> if you mean restrict the numbers of immigrants arriving from the EU and only allow those with the skills needed, that`s half of what the exit voters wanted, *no* more laws enacted in the EU that effect the UK is the other half, agree those and I may vote remain if there was to be another referendum.


That's half of what *you* wanted. Other leave voters might be happy to remain with only one concession. Hence my suggestion that getting one major concession is enough of a change to warrant a new referendum. And what if the 'leave option' involves staying in the single market and we have to have free movement and transpose loads of EU laws anyway? Then it might actually be more desirable to remain with a big concession. As I said, these sorts of things could really justify a new referendum because the situation was so different.



Spaceman10 said:


> This was in the express today
> Remain campaigners will NOT get a second referendum after Cameron officially bins proposal
> DAVID Cameron has binned a call for a second Brexit referendum - despite an official petition which received 4.1million signatures.


The petition was for a re-run of the referendum - that's not what I'm suggesting because we already have a result for that. I'm saying that if the situation changes in the next year or so before A50 is signed then a completely different, new referendum may be justified. A new referendum, not a 2nd one.


----------



## Spaceman10

Yes they will and other will follow 
This will be Merkel last year she has opened Pandora box and she don't know how to put the lid back on it.
I can't see the Germany's putting up with it


----------



## bobclive22

> She got 10/10 for her spelling yesterday not bad for a half Polish half South African "******", just so you get the picture Bob.


*half Polish half South African "******"*, so you or your partner are dark skinned, if you call your daughter ******** it`s OK and not racist), if I called her that name what would be your response, playing the race card are we.

So your daughter was born here, speaks fluent English and got 10/10 for her spelling, she did well I am sure you are proud of her, whats the point.



> Your narrowed minded prejudices/bigoted views make me want to hurl.


I try to make a valid point that if there are 1/2 dozen languages spoken in your child`s class it will impinge on the level of learning, I can`t see that comment is bigoted or is a preconceived opinion that is not based on reason, the reason is that if there are a large number of children that don`t speak or understand the English language this will undoubtedly slow down the learning of others.


----------



## Spandex

Spaceman10 said:


> The express
> MERKEL'S WORST NIGHTMARE: Germany calls for Referendum as 'people want to be free of EU'
> 
> BELEAGUERED Angela Merkel is facing calls for a referendum to free German people of "EU slavery" in the wake of Britain's sensational decision to cut ties with Brussels.
> 
> By REBECCA PERRING
> PUBLISHED: 03:09, Sun, Jul 3, 2016 | UPDATED: 09:10, Sun, Jul 3, 2016
> 
> It may be right or may be wrong but people are starting to talk and want other thing than the EU.
> That's what people need to take on board.


The express is rabidly anti-EU, so you should be careful reading articles like that there. I mean, there are bound to be anti-EU groups in every single country, and they are bound to be constantly demanding referendums, so you could have run that article about any country at any time since the EU was formed. It doesn't really mean anything, but that paper has an agenda so will try to spin everything to further its narrative.


----------



## John-H

Spandex said:


> Whilst I understand the desire to grab onto anything that looks like a way out of this mess, I don't think the legal aspect is really the right way to go. Not because I think it's technically wrong, but because I think it won't produce a different result. Parliament will vote along the lines of the referendum result even if they don't agree with leaving the EU, because they won't want to be seen to be undemocratic.
> 
> That's why I think the only 'solution' is to delay any parliamentary decision on A50 for as long as possible while negotiating as hard as possible - then once the landscape has changed significantly, it would be sensible to seek a new referendum based on the new options. For example what if the EU, in a desperate bid to keep the union together, allowed us to manage our own borders? Changes like that would render the previous referendum irrelevant.


I agree on the second bit and I think that's the idea as well as to ensure support by the first bit; that this is done legally and to provide clarity. The uncertainty surrounding the legal situation will provide more time to see how things are going and come up with some sensible options to put to parliament, debate things properly and form a plan. This also allows options to be out back to the people who will also have a better view of the consequences by then.

The one thing I think we should avoid is some trigger happy PM pushing the buttom before we know the consequences.

We still don't have a plan.

As has already been pointed out, those who say, "accept it and move on" don't know where they are suggesting moving on to because there is no plan. We all accept that the referendum has produced it's result but there is certainly no clarity as what comes next.


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> *half Polish half South African "******"*, so you or your partner are dark skinned, if you call your daughter ******** it`s OK and not racist), if I called her that name what would be your response, playing the race card are we.


Bob, one day you're going to understand what 'context' means and it's going to be a real eye opener for you.


----------



## Spaceman10

If you had read the last part I did say it could be right or could be wrong but a lot of thing are happening and people want some thing different now


----------



## A3DFU

Spaceman10 said:


> The express
> MERKEL'S WORST NIGHTMARE: Germany calls for Referendum as 'people want to be free of EU'
> 
> BELEAGUERED Angela Merkel is facing calls for a referendum to free German people of "EU slavery" in the wake of Britain's sensational decision to cut ties with Brussels.
> 
> By REBECCA PERRING
> PUBLISHED: 03:09, Sun, Jul 3, 2016 | UPDATED: 09:10, Sun, Jul 3, 2016
> 
> It may be right or may be wrong but people are starting to talk and want other thing than the EU.
> That's what people need to take on board.


I'd be careful with reports from the Express as well.
Germany did a poll last week regarding likes/dislikes of EU membership and the result is as follows:

51% of Germans say membership of the EU is positive
37% of Germans see both positives and negatives in their EU membership and only
10% of Germans say they think EU membership is negative for them.
The missing 2% didn't want to give an answer.
That's the most positive result ever measured in what is called "Politbarometer" in Germany.

Source 7pm main ZDF news

http://www.zdf.de/ZDFmediathek#/beitrag ... -Juli-2016


----------



## bobclive22

I said, 
Be interesting to see how your daughter fares in a class with pupils speaking half a dozen different languages, the inference was that those pupils did *NOT* speak English.

Reply,



> She got 10/10 for her spelling yesterday not bad for a half Polish half South African "******", *just so you get the picture Bob*.


My reply,

Half Polish half South African "******", so you or your partner are dark skinned, if you call your daughter ****** it`s OK and not racist), if I called her that name what would be your response, playing the race card are we.
As I have been called a racist for voting leave on here I felt the word ****** was aimed at me, if it was not then that word should not have been included in the comment as it was totally irrelevant to the discussion.

This is a more reasonable statement, *She got 10/10 for her spelling yesterday not bad for a half Polish half South African,*



> Bob, one day you're going to understand what 'context' means and it's going to be a real eye opener for you.


*Context,* the parts of something written or spoken that immediately precede and follow a word or passage and clarify its meaning.


----------



## Spaceman10

Why would I be careful, if you look at the eu county's from 5 years ago. ( I traveled all over the eu every week for work) 
It would not be the first thing on people's lips ( maybe apart from the uk) but now the fire has started and it can't be put out.
Again just look at France Italy and Spain all got major problem.
The eu machine is finish but the people of the eu will rise and put a end to the madness


----------



## jamman

Bob please rest assured my words were totally aimed at you and no one else.

I'm quite touched by the two PMs telling me that all "leavers" aren't the same as you.

To you in your ignorant little bubble it will mean nothing to others it will speak volumes.

PS learn to quote


----------



## bobclive22

I'd be careful with reports from the ZDF news.

Propaganda is a vehicle of political salesmanship in a mass market, and it is a way of conveying a message to the bulk of the German people.


----------



## bobclive22

> Bob please rest assured my words were totally aimed at you and no one else.
> I'm quite touched by the two PMs telling me that all "leavers" aren't the same as you.
> To you in your ignorant little bubble it will mean nothing to others it will speak volumes.


When you have lost the argument go for the man.


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> Bob, one day you're going to understand what 'context' means and it's going to be a real eye opener for you.
> 
> 
> 
> *Context,* the parts of something written or spoken that immediately precede and follow a word or passage and clarify its meaning.
Click to expand...

If only copying and pasting a definition was the same as understanding it :wink:


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> I'd be careful with reports from the ZDF news.
> 
> *Propaganda is a vehicle of political salesmanship in a mass market, and it is a way of conveying a message to the bulk of the German people*.


For everyone else's information, Bob has just plagiarised a comment by Professor David Welch where he was describing two chapters about propaganda in Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf.

You're an odd man, Bob.


----------



## bobclive22

> For everyone else's information, Bob has just plagiarized a comment by Professor David Welch where he was describing two chapters about propaganda in Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf.


*Plagiarised,* take the work or an idea of someone else and pass it off as one's own, *it was a line of comment to make a point, grow up.
*

Simon Heffer

We British once cherished the idea of *the good loser*. Michael Gove exemplified it in his gracious speech of defeat last Thursday. Sadly, the concept has bypassed a small, but vocal, minority whose outrage at the exercise of democracy by those they hold in *utter contempt is boundless.* In the fortnight since a majority chose to leave the European Union, we have witnessed catastrophism, hysteria and absurdity to a comical degree. The news that Richard Branson - who so loves this country *that he lives in the Caribbean* - came to London to see Theresa May and *demand a re-run of the vote *exemplifies the *hubris, arrogance and divorce from reality of an elite astounded at being disobeyed.*

Then, as the reality of our disobedience sank in, the grief-stricken became more militant. There has been sinister talk of a legal challenge. Accusations have been made repeatedly that Leave won only because its participants "lied". *It hurts Remainers that they cheated and lied and still lost:* the *£9m of taxpayers' money *blown on a mendacious leaflet; *the extension of voter registration by two days because a computer failed for an hour and three-quarters;* serial breaches of purdah; threats of a third world war and an emergency budget; and, *most appalling, attempts by prominent Remainers to link the terrible murder of a Labour MP with Brexiteers,* something for which they should burn with shame.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07 ... untry-dow/


----------



## John-H

You do realise that Simon Heffer is a leave campaigner and has been for some time.

http://www.connexionfrance.com/Simon-He ... ticle.html

You might as well quote Nigel Farage :roll:


----------



## bobclive22

> You do realise that Simon Heffer is a leave campaigner and has been for some time.


That being the case, are the contents of his article fact or fiction.


----------



## bobclive22

If only copying and pasting a definition was the same as understanding it

My 17.18 comment, please explain where the context is wrong.


----------



## John-H

He mentions events but his diatribe is opinion and comment so facts hardly feature in any useful sense. It takes us no further forward. I could quote you equally scathing and lots of angry comment from others who are devastated and angry about the result but you would ignore them and just find some other quote to counter with more opposing opinion. This would get us nowhere. So let's not quote more opinion and comment unless it's from someone with influence that matters.

So what's the plan Bob? Can you quote any leave campaigner who has come up with a workable proposal for an economic plan? Let's discuss that - a workable plan


----------



## bobclive22

> He mentions events but his diatribe is opinion and comment so facts hardly feature in any useful sense. It takes us no further forward. I could quote you equally scathing and lots of angry comment from others who are devastated and angry about the result but you would ignore them and just find some other quote to counter with more opposing opinion. This would get us nowhere. So let's not quote more opinion and comment unless it's from someone with influence that matters.


In a joint statement with Chancellor George Osborne, the investment banks said while Brexit "clearly presents economic challenges", they are committed to ensuring Britain "*remains one of the most attractive places in the world to do business*".

*The Wall Street giants, including Standard Chartered and Citigroup and Bank of America Merrill Lynch, praised the City of London as a good place to do business with its "brilliant workforce", "stable legal system", "world class regulators" and "deep liquid capital markets unmatched anywhere else in Europe".*

The statement was released after the Chancellor held crunch talks with top banking executives at No11.

It concluded: "Today we met and agreed that we would work together to build on all this with a common aim to help London retain its position as the leading international financial centre."

Last night Eurosceptic Tory MP Sir Bill Cash said: "*I am glad these firms have finally woken up and seen the light.

"We are one of greatest economies in the world and the City has been a centre of financial global markets for 250 years. 
That is not going to change."*

*These are the same institutions that spelt doom in the run up to Brexit.*

This article appeared in the times but was taken from the Sun, i am sure you know why.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*London is different from the rest of England. London is a very international city. And, to be fair, London has been thriving, and not all other bits of England have been.*

*That`s why London voted remain and the rest of England voted leave.*

http://www.wsj.com/articles/what-brexit ... 1466761533


----------



## John-H

So not much plan still but a quote from George Osborne and investment banks at least - trying to "help London retain its position".

Well that's positive and hopeful at least. Do you think their statement has been made to try and offset the negative effect of the Brexit vote?

If you remember George Osborne's statement immediately after the vote - it was amazingly positive and completely different to the dire warnings he had given before the result. Do you think he changed his mind about the consequences of Brexit overnight? Or do you think he was trying to reassure the markets and prevent damage?

What do you think George Osborne and the investment banks are doing now?

If I might try to extract a scintilla of a plan from your links and quotes, I notice that the Wall Street Journal you linked says:



> LONDON-London risks losing thousands of finance jobs to other European cities following the U.K.'s historic vote to leave the European Union.
> 
> Keeping those jobs here depends on the U.K.'s ability to strike a political deal that allows it-now as an outsider-to access the trading block's single market, ...


So is that part of a plan you support Bob - that the UK should secure access to the single market?


----------



## cheechy

To look at that point with a clear head then...if you were say the French, and you stood to gain thousands of jobs into Paris at the expense of London.

Why would you allow UK to retain passport to continue free access to the EU financial markets? If I were French tbh I wouldn't and any nation in the EU could be the same.

I do agree for sure that the success of London has left the rest of the country behind but don't worry that's being fixed


----------



## Trouble4

http://pro.strategicinvestment.com/NDPCUR1/PNDPS429/?h=true

UK joined....... :?: ...... [smiley=gossip.gif]


----------



## John-H

Trouble4 said:


> http://pro.strategicinvestment.com/NDPCUR1/PNDPS429/?h=true
> 
> UK joined....... :?: ...... [smiley=gossip.gif]


You are joking with us?


----------



## bobclive22

The Brexit divide wasn't between young and old, but Ponces and Non-Ponces

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/br ... on-ponces/

Here`s one for you Spandex, I believe you are a fully paid up green, and anti everything.

https://risk-monger.com/2016/06/08/how- ... een-party/


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> The Brexit divide wasn't between young and old, but Ponces and Non-Ponces
> 
> http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/br ... on-ponces/


So basically an ego massaging piece to make the Leavers feel better about themselves by trying to put a positive spin on the statistical and perceived (but probably imaginary) differences between them and Remain voters. Other than making people with a chip on their shoulder feel a little better about themselves, what's the point? Maybe spend some time trying to answer Johns questions instead of wasting it looking up self-congratulatory articles like that.



bobclive22 said:


> Here`s one for you Spandex, I believe you are a fully paid up green, and anti everything.
> 
> https://risk-monger.com/2016/06/08/how- ... een-party/


Ok. You've imagined that I'm 'a green' and now you're going to post articles that show my imaginary favourite party in a negative light? Weapons. Grade. Mental.


----------



## Trouble4

John-H said:


> Trouble4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> http://pro.strategicinvestment.com/NDPCUR1/PNDPS429/?h=true
> 
> UK joined....... :?: ...... [smiley=gossip.gif]
> 
> 
> 
> You are joking with us?
Click to expand...

thought you would like it........... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I know this is serious the vote that has taken place...... I know in each ones own heart they mean well and believe in what one is saying........ I know that all here have more then enough Love of Country and Self....

I know; I know nothing and learn every moment of every day.... Now that this has been done ... Let those that live this Look to new avenues to address the concerns that this brings or what the STAY voters say/said will come true and neither groups want that to happen.. The need to unite is here ever more then before ??? or do you need the EU to tell you that ??? .......

as the video is as humorous as cat piss in your foot wells fermenting in hot weather days......

Let us hear/write some things that are constructive even if a little destructive to get to the final goal......... [smiley=book2.gif] [smiley=gossip.gif] even this is good [smiley=argue.gif]

US is not far behind you..... as many are rolling the dice with the US election upon us........

Thanks John


----------



## bobclive22

> So basically an ego massaging piece to make the Leavers feel better about themselves by trying to put a positive spin on the statistical and perceived (but probably imaginary) differences between them and Remain voters. Other than making people with a chip on their shoulder feel a little better about themselves, what's the point? Maybe spend some time trying to answer Johns questions instead of wasting it looking up self-congratulatory articles like that.


I thought it an hilarious article and that you might enjoy it.



> Ok. You've imagined that I'm 'a green' and now you're going to post articles that show my imaginary favourite party in a negative light? Weapons. Grade. Mental.


No, you can never have a rational discussion with a Green, they belong to a religion.

According to this graph it would appear that even more young voters voted exit otherwise how did the over 65`s swing it.

http://www.indexmundi.com/united_kingdo ... cture.html


----------



## Tangerine Knight

Id just like to mention to lighten the tone. When I log onto the forum there is an advert at the top keeps flashing up saying "the truth about brexit,how you can prosper outside Europe" has made me laugh considering the hot under the collar debate going on. I've given up now what will be will be.Has anyone else got it on there log in?


----------



## Shug750S

Tangerine Knight said:


> Id just like to mention to lighten the tone. When I log onto the forum there is an advert at the top keeps flashing up saying "the truth about brexit,how you can prosper outside Europe" has made me laugh considering the hot under the collar debate going on. I've given up now what will be will be.Has anyone else got it on there log in?


No mate, my log in ad is just some Eastern European birds in skimpy kit wanting to go on a date.... :lol:


----------



## Tangerine Knight

Shug750S said:


> Tangerine Knight said:
> 
> 
> 
> Id just like to mention to lighten the tone. When I log onto the forum there is an advert at the top keeps flashing up saying "the truth about brexit,how you can prosper outside Europe" has made me laugh considering the hot under the collar debate going on. I've given up now what will be will be.Has anyone else got it on there log in?
> 
> 
> 
> No mate, my log in ad is just some Eastern European birds in skimpy kit wanting to go on a date.... :lol:
Click to expand...

As my old dad used to say I have the luck of a pox doctors clerk. PS can you pm the site details


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> I thought it an hilarious article and that you might enjoy it.


Point proven. :wink: 


bobclive22 said:


> No, you can never have a rational discussion with a Green, they belong to a religion.


Top tip. I'll bear that in mind if I ever meet 'a green'. Would you say it's possible to have a rational debate with you? I only ask because so far it's not happened.


bobclive22 said:


> According to this graph it would appear that even more young voters voted exit otherwise how did the over 65`s swing it.


There is already data about how the vote breaks down by age. Perhaps you should contact the statisticians to tell them you have a new theory though. I can't imagine they could care any less about it that I do so its worth a try.


----------



## cheechy

Spandex said:


> bobclive22 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I thought it an hilarious article and that you might enjoy it.
> 
> 
> 
> Point proven. :wink:
> 
> 
> bobclive22 said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, you can never have a rational discussion with a Green, they belong to a religion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Top tip. I'll bear that in mind if I ever meet 'a green'. Would you say it's possible to have a rational debate with you? I only ask because so far it's not happened.
> 
> 
> bobclive22 said:
> 
> 
> 
> According to this graph it would appear that even more young voters voted exit otherwise how did the over 65`s swing it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There is already data about how the vote breaks down by age. Perhaps you should contact the statisticians to tell them you have a new theory though. I can't imagine they could care any less about it that I do so its worth a try.
Click to expand...

Interesting report in the guardian stating they got the youth turnout numberd wrong(too low). That either then means that"the young" didn't vote as reported OR the older generation voted even more strongly to leave than thought, providing more ammo to"ruined our future" debate.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/09/young-people-referendum-turnout-brexit-twice-as-high


----------



## A3DFU

Here's the reply to all who said (hoped) funds would be ploughed into the NHS after Brexit:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-36760985

I particularly like this line by Helen McKenna:



> "Politicians need to be honest with the public


----------



## rustyintegrale

I particularly like this line by Helen McKenna:



> "Politicians need to be honest with the public"





> "Politicians need to banned from public service and stripped of all privileges if they're proven to have been dishonest with the public"


I'm sick of being manipulated, lied to and having my life determined by a bunch of wittering dimwits.


----------



## John-H

Yes, it's interesting also that in a general election it's an offense to mislead the public over the facts in order to try and affect the return but in the referendum it is not:



John Halford of Bindmans LLP said:


> Campaigning on the basis of false or misleading statements is nowhere mentioned. That suggests, in the face of things, that however unethical it may be, it is not prohibited. That might be thought surprising, particularly when at least one Leave campaign assertion - the £350 million per week savings to be made as a result of Brexit - was identified as misleading by public and private organisations, but nevertheless sustained.
> 
> There is no real prospect of the courts reading in a duty not to knowingly or recklessly make such statements during a referendum campaign into the Act, less still to enforce it by making a ruling that would force a second referendum to answer the same question put to voters. That is primarily because Parliament has fashioned a limited and narrow obligation to tell the truth to the electorate in the context of general elections, but did not choose to impose a similar obligation during referendum campaigns. The election duty is found in section 106 of the 1983 Representation of the People Act which provides:
> 
> "A person who, or any director of any body or association corporate which-
> 
> (a) before or during an election,
> 
> (b) for the purpose of affecting the return of any candidate at the election,
> 
> makes or publishes any false statement of fact in relation to the candidate's personal character or conduct *shall be guilty of an illegal practice*, unless he can show that he had reasonable grounds for believing, and did believe, the statement to be true."
> https://waitingfortax.com/2016/07/07/re ... rspending/


Given the one way street consequences we now find ourselves in I find that particularly ludicrous.


----------



## rustyintegrale

John-H said:


> Given the one way street consequences we now find ourselves in I find that particularly ludicrous.


And they have the temerity to ask why we have such a low opinion of politicians.

I despair. :?


----------



## A3DFU

John-H said:


> Given the one way street consequences we now find ourselves in I find that particularly ludicrous.


The British people have been taken for a blind folded ride, spun round and round until they felt dizzy enough so they couldn't think clearly anymore. No wonder we are now faced with a messed up result that means different things to different people and there is no clear way out of this mess :?



rustyintegrale said:


> And they have the temerity to ask why we have such a low opinion of politicians.
> 
> I despair. :?


My sons and myself too :?

But thank you for a new word in my English vocabulary: _temerity_


----------



## Dash

bobclive22 said:


> No, you can never have a rational discussion with a Green, they belong to a religion.


Ha! *scoff*

What a balanced, non-stereotyping and non-prejudicial view you have there Bob. :roll:

You really don't paint yourself in a good light.


----------



## John-H

I see Andrea Leadsom has pulled out of the two horse race for Tory leadership now:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-36570120

Also 1,000 barristers write a letter to Cameron telling him that the referendum was not legally binding, that primary legislation would be needed to trigger article 50 and _"Since the result was only narrowly in favour of Brexit, it cannot be discounted that the misrepresentations and promises were a decisive or contributory factor in the result."_ It recommends a Royal Commission be set up to advise on consequences before a free vote:

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/brexit-over-1 ... 29124.html

Full text: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 30226.html


----------



## A3DFU

I saw this morning that Andrea Leadsom apologised for her comment re motherhood so I'm not surprise she took the next logical step.

What a complete and utter cock-up this whole referendum is. We (sorry that I say "we" but this is my chosen country since three decades) lost the prime minister, Boris Johnson who used to be pro EU, Nigel Farage and next will be Jeremy Corbyn.
"The rats leaving the sinking ship" comes to mind :?


----------



## bobclive22

Iain Mansfield, the director of trade and industry at the British Embassy in Manilla, won the IEA prize for his essay A Blueprint for Britain: Openness not isolation.

Brexit, the outcome would be to accelerate the shifting pattern of UK's exports and total trade away from the EU *to the emerging markets, where the majority of the world's growth is located. * A more business-friendly regulatory regime and the new security of the City of London from European interference will enhance competitiveness and compensate for the partial loss of access to the European market

http://www.iea.org.uk/sites/default/fil ... io_web.pdf


----------



## jamman

I really think Bob needs to get away from the keyboard/internet and get some fresh air.

Votes for BOBoffski ?


----------



## bobclive22

1,000 barristers write a letter to Cameron

Not Amused
Jul 11 2016 11:27am

7% of the Bar self identify (or errr &#8230; not &#8230; as I've yet to actually see the list of names) as bad lawyers.

Given that this letter was hawked around every one of us,* I think that's a refreshingly low level of support.*

Gladiatrix
Jul 11 2016 11:42am

Kolvin did not write to the Bar, he wrote to the self-employed Bar yet again demonstrating that there are still barristers who don't understand that the Bar also includes Employed barristers. In fact we comprise 25% of the Bar.
As for the content of the letter, *any objections to the wording of the enabling act and the effect of the result should have been lodged before the act received Royal Assent. These signatories are out of time.*
Worse, they are bringing the profession into disrepute by seeking to impose their tiny and unrepresentative minority view over that of 17M people. It is time and more than time that the BSB issued a statement advising the Bar as a whole to *respect the will of the people.
*
Curiouser & Curiouser
Jul 11 2016 1:09pm

I am in agreement with Gladiatrix. "*any objections to the wording of the enabling act&#8230; should have been lodged before the Act received Royal Assent*"

*No one had the foresight to contemplate this occurrence, or is it more true that no one expected this result? *The people have spoken, surely it must be that absent language reflects the intent of Parliament the first time, that they tacitly and silently agreed for the vote to count&#8230; because they expected a certain result. There are no "take backies" or "do overs"

Gladiatrix second point is also true and well reasoned. *This action potentially could bring the profession in disrepute. 1000 unelected people "advising" the Government to disregard and negate the voice and will of the majority of the people is dangerous.*

James Hellem
Jul 11 2016 1:41pm

*With two degrees and as somebody who is employed to enforce EU legislation*, I like most people that signed this letter earn well above the average national wave and have been said to be privileged. The EU referendum was give the whole of society a choice whether or not to leave the EU and they voted to leave. I was at the Oxford Union to vote on the matter and it was no surprise that those of us privileged enough to be there voted to stay,* however, we do not represent the whole of British society, the referendum did.* I am sure overly paid and privileged individuals in the legal profession would like to stay in the EU and use any loopholes available to do this but this is exactly what the referendum was made to oppose. *You who signed this letter are the people that the British public do not want in control, law makers, solicitors, barristers. You do not benefit the British people only your pockets and others that earn enough to 'win' in the courtroom. The people of Britain have spoken and I hope that those in the profession can learn to serve the British people.*

https://www.scribd.com/document/3179585 ... from_embed

http://www.legalcheek.com/2016/07/1054- ... er-brexit/


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> Iain Mansfield, the director of trade and industry at the British Embassy in Manilla, won the IEA prize for his essay A Blueprint for Britain: Openness not isolation.
> 
> Brexit, the outcome would be to accelerate the shifting pattern of UK's exports and total trade away from the EU *to the emerging markets, where the majority of the world's growth is located. * A more business-friendly regulatory regime and the new security of the City of London from European interference will enhance competitiveness and compensate for the partial loss of access to the European market
> 
> http://www.iea.org.uk/sites/default/fil ... io_web.pdf


It was a competition solely for essays on why brexit was a good idea, funded by a thatcherite think tank. So, his win should be taken in context.

That being said, I'm sure hes' a clever chap. As are quite a few brexit supporters. As are quite a few Remain supporters. The Remain camp does seem to have a significantly larger number of 'clever chaps' (commonly referred to as 'experts') than the Leave camp though, which should tell you something unless you're:

A) Sick of experts
or
B) Bob


----------



## Dash

John-H said:


> I see Andrea Leadsom has pulled out of the two horse race for Tory leadership now:


Still, at least we've taken the country back and we now directly control who is leading us and not some distant committee deciding who is to do the job.

Oh no wait, that's not what's happening... :roll:

The highest office of the land - yet the land is so ****ed that only one person is willing to take a crack at it. That one person is facing no opposition and can just waltz into power.

Still, I'd rather May over Leadsom. But that's not really an endorsement.


----------



## John-H

bobclive22 said:


> 1,000 barristers write a letter to Cameron
> 
> Not Amused
> Jul 11 2016 11:27am
> 
> 7% of the Bar self identify (or errr &#8230; not &#8230; as I've yet to actually see the list of names) as bad lawyers.
> 
> Given that this letter was hawked around every one of us,* I think that's a refreshingly low level of support.*
> 
> Gladiatrix
> Jul 11 2016 11:42am
> 
> Kolvin did not write to the Bar, he wrote to the self-employed Bar yet again demonstrating that there are still barristers who don't understand that the Bar also includes Employed barristers. In fact we comprise 25% of the Bar.
> As for the content of the letter, *any objections to the wording of the enabling act and the effect of the result should have been lodged before the act received Royal Assent. These signatories are out of time.*
> Worse, they are bringing the profession into disrepute by seeking to impose their tiny and unrepresentative minority view over that of 17M people. It is time and more than time that the BSB issued a statement advising the Bar as a whole to *respect the will of the people.
> *
> Curiouser & Curiouser
> Jul 11 2016 1:09pm
> 
> I am in agreement with Gladiatrix. "*any objections to the wording of the enabling act&#8230; should have been lodged before the Act received Royal Assent*"
> 
> *No one had the foresight to contemplate this occurrence, or is it more true that no one expected this result? *The people have spoken, surely it must be that absent language reflects the intent of Parliament the first time, that they tacitly and silently agreed for the vote to count&#8230; because they expected a certain result. There are no "take backies" or "do overs"
> 
> Gladiatrix second point is also true and well reasoned. *This action potentially could bring the profession in disrepute. 1000 unelected people "advising" the Government to disregard and negate the voice and will of the majority of the people is dangerous.*
> 
> James Hellem
> Jul 11 2016 1:41pm
> 
> *With two degrees and as somebody who is employed to enforce EU legislation*, I like most people that signed this letter earn well above the average national wave and have been said to be privileged. The EU referendum was give the whole of society a choice whether or not to leave the EU and they voted to leave. I was at the Oxford Union to vote on the matter and it was no surprise that those of us privileged enough to be there voted to stay,* however, we do not represent the whole of British society, the referendum did.* I am sure overly paid and privileged individuals in the legal profession would like to stay in the EU and use any loopholes available to do this but this is exactly what the referendum was made to oppose. *You who signed this letter are the people that the British public do not want in control, law makers, solicitors, barristers. You do not benefit the British people only your pockets and others that earn enough to 'win' in the courtroom. The people of Britain have spoken and I hope that those in the profession can learn to serve the British people.*
> 
> https://www.scribd.com/document/3179585 ... from_embed
> 
> http://www.legalcheek.com/2016/07/1054- ... er-brexit/


Bob, please make your quotation of others distinct from your own comments otherwise your posts are difficult to understand.

Your link by the way reports about the 1,000+ barristers writing to David Cameron and mentions one anonymous dissenter - whom you choose to emphasise and expand on - but it's unclear if the comments are yours. It matters not as the larger voice is clearly of more significance.

EDIT: Oh I see what you've done now you've gone down the list of random blog posters underneath the report and cherry picked the ones you like the sound of.

I could do that too and pick ones I liked the sound of - even some people you seem to have quoted making other comments that I don't think you will like.

I don't see the point though as we don't know who they are as anyone can leave a comment - it could indeed even be you :lol:

EDIT2: I can't resist....



> Not Bob Jul 11 2016 6:04pm
> I'm just a random person.


 :lol:


----------



## bobclive22

> Spandex said, clever chaps' (commonly referred to as *'experts'*) than the Leave camp though, which should tell you something unless you're:


*Experts*.

The people who do get taken seriously are the ones who tell us *what we want to hear*. In practice that generally means *what people with money want to hear*. It doesn't really matter whether our experts actually believe what they're saying, *if they've been cherry-picked to say it*. *They are enablers more than they are real experts.* The whole institutional structure of expertise-the news organizations, the think tanks, and the research institutions that give experts credibility-*largely serves the interests of the people and corporations who fund it.* So it should not be surprising that we have experts who say that bankers were blameless in the economic crisis, that coal is clean, or that the military budget needs to be bigger. *It is ultimately up to us to be better, more skeptical *consumers of expert analysis. Especially where there's money at stake.[/b]

http://bigthink.com/politeia/why-the-ex ... hing-wrong

*Here are some experts for you Spandex.

40 million deaths and counting, mainly children.*

http://rachelwaswrong.org/victims/

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles ... ths_o.html

http://www.scienceheroes.com/index.php? ... Itemid=263

*The medical elite thought they knew what caused ulcers and stomach cancer. But they were wrong-and did not want to hear the answer that was right.*

http://discovermagazine.com/2010/mar/07 ... al-mystery

*At least half of all parents tried over shaken baby syndrome have been wrongly convicted,
*
By the time Lorraine's appeal was heard in 2005, Dr Squier had become convinced the criteria she had used to define whether SBS had taken place were wrong. In a complete U-turn, she now appeared as an expert witness for the defence. Lorraine's conviction was quashed.

*I got it wrong first time round never mind.
*
*Lord Acton stated: 'Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.'*

The doctor Harold Shipman illustrated Acton's view on human nature by murdering a number of his patients over many years. *Doctors have our utmost trust,* but also - as Shipman proved - absolute power over life and death. So should we really put our lives in the hands of these experts? Isn't it dangerous to trust them?

Finally, *why should we believe what the experts say*? Very often their statements merely reflect the opinion of the side that happens to be winning at that time.

It is medicine that hits the headlines most often, as it affects us all. Changes in medical technology render today's experts tomorrow's fools. *Thalidomide *was a drug prescribed by doctors to combat morning sickness in pregnant women. *Hundreds put their trust in the so-called experts with disastrous consequences.* Despite acute denial, we are all now aware Thalidomide causes birth deformities. *Are the experts views really any.more than opinions of the side that happens to be ahead or winning at that particular time?* Should we eat GM foods? Should we eat crisps? Should you live near a nuclear power plant? Who knows?! Who do we really believe? Science is supposed to be exact, but in today's world, *much expert comment is subjective.*

We were all told the Titanic was unsinkable. Look what happened there.

There will always be a wealth of experts arguing a number of sides to any given issue and *most will be proved wrong*. Yet we still seek them out because whenever there is uncertainty, we listen to anyone who professes to know more than we do. By looking for easy answers, *we're just asking for trouble.*

*In a twenty year study of political experts*, Philip Tetlock found that that their predictions were* no better than flipping a coin. * Further, he found that pundits who specialized in a particular field tended to perform worse than those whose knowledge was more general.

http://www.digitaltonto.com/2014/why-ex ... -it-wrong/

And to finish Spandex, I had a large amount invested by a well respected fund management company, by chance I found a list of dog funds on the net, dog funds are funds that are under performing, 80% of my investments were dog funds, fortunately I removed those funds before any damage was done, the good 20% covered the costs.


----------



## jamman

Really is time to switch off now Bob and go for a walk/medicate, one of the two.

You are bonkers


----------



## bobclive22

> EDIT: Oh I see what you've done now you've gone down the list of random blog posters underneath the report and cherry picked the ones you like the sound of.


I quoted the ones *discussing the legality of the letter*, not the ones *doing the griping*, there was NO cherry picking, odd the letter didn`t give any names.


----------



## A3DFU

You got to admire Bob for trying to fight his corner :roll: :lol:

[smiley=end.gif]


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> more nonsense..


FFS Bob. Is that really what's going on in your brain??

I've said it before in the BBC thread that you thought was a global warming/stomach ulcer thread. The fact that there are instances where 'experts' or scientists have been proven wrong simply tells us that they _can_ be wrong. Which we all knew. That's where consensus comes in. You take a lot of trusted sources (and no, before you go all frothy-mouthed again, when I say 'trusted' I don't mean 'infallible') and you aggregate the results to come to some sort of consensus. Not quite a meta-analysis in this case, but the same principle.

Now, this doesn't guarantee the consensus is correct - nothing can guarantee that and no one expects it to - but it does mean that it should probably be your working theory until it's proven false (and that means more than finding an 'expert' who says its false). You certainly need more than a rambling weirdo called Bob with an ill-advised access to Google to disprove it.

So for the love of God, stop posting this shit. It proves nothing. It just gives a terrifying insight into your mind, which is something I don't think you should inflict on people without their permission.


----------



## Spandex

I just have to single this one out, because it really is hilarious and I'm worried most people reading this thread won't bother with a post as long and rambling as yours.



bobclive22 said:


> The doctor Harold Shipman illustrated Acton's view on human nature by murdering a number of his patients over many years. *Doctors have our utmost trust,* but also - as Shipman proved - absolute power over life and death. So should we really put our lives in the hands of these experts? Isn't it dangerous to trust them?


Classic Bob..


----------



## Shug750S

Interesting the post above mentions Dr Harold Shipman.

I once saw the question, was he the worst serial killer in the UK? Or the best? 
Depends on your viewpoint really.

Here's another 'choice' question.

You are in a new town and fancy a pizza. There are three pizza places in the same street, each with signs as follows. Which one do you eat in?

Best pizza in town,

Best pizza in the country, or

Best Pizza in the street?

Just posted to release some of the tension on these pages


----------



## cheechy

Bob seriously man did you have to lap up _ everything _ the pro brexit camp were saying and then take all this on as fact for how you live your life from now on?

You dude are proper scary. Sorry.

...now where did I put that £350m...I'd better check the back if the sofa.


----------



## Spaceman10

Wow the in campaigners are still at it lol
Bob they lost the vote, and they can't let go lol
The EU will fall apart very soon and they will be glad we came out


----------



## cheechy

Spaceman10 said:


> Wow the in campaigners are still at it lol
> Bob they lost the vote, and they can't let go lol
> The EU will fall apart very soon and they will be glad we came out


Nowt to do with in/out Bob is just scary.


----------



## jamman

cheechy said:


> Spaceman10 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow the in campaigners are still at it lol
> Bob they lost the vote, and they can't let go lol
> The EU will fall apart very soon and they will be glad we came out
> 
> 
> 
> Nowt to do with in/out Bob is just scary.
Click to expand...

Very


----------



## John-H

A3DFU said:


> You got to admire Bob for trying to fight his corner :roll: :lol:
> 
> [smiley=end.gif]


Yes, but I don't think randomly regurgitating the internet with poorly formed quotes from dubious sources mixed with Bob talk is convincing anyone else other than Bob that he has any ideas of his own.

He's been challenged several times now to tell us what the plan is and has singularly failed, preferring instead to dodge the question and continue to drench us with quotation dribble.

He had an excellent opportunity to explore some of the ideas contained in the essay he snatched a quote from earlier and for a moment I thought we were to get some intellectual analysis ... but ... oh no, he's back to rubbishing the concept of experts, science and learning again which unfortunately confirms that we are not going to hear anything useful from Bob.

There is the concept that an infinite number of monkeys with typewriters will eventually come up with the works of Shakespeare.

Perhaps Bob is working on the principal that an infinite number of quotes from the internet will eventually produce an economic plan?

I think both concepts fail on being able to recognise it and knowing when to stop.


----------



## bobclive22

> Bob seriously man did you have to lap up everything the pro brexit camp were saying and then take all this on as fact for how you live your life from now on?


Unlike you lot I am actually living with the consequences of mass unskilled EU immigration, it obviously hasn`t reached your door step yet.

As for picking comments off the internet, it`s a darn more enlightening media than your beloved Guardian or News at ten. You will notice that the comments I posted from that legal forum were from mainly remain voting barristers, so there was NO cherry picking.

As Mansfield voted out by the highest margin in the country, it would be interesting to see which way the IN leaning Mansfield Labour MP and others would vote if these barristers get their way



> There is the concept that an infinite number of monkeys with typewriters will eventually come up with the works of Shakespeare.


Here we go, ad hominem.


----------



## John-H

bobclive22 said:


> ... You will notice that the comments I posted from that legal forum were from mainly remain voting barristers, so there was NO cherry picking. ...


You contradict yourself or you don't know what cherry picking means. You also don't know who made those comments as any comment could be added by anybody pretending to be anybody. I added one to prove the point. You could have added comments. It proves nothing other than you continue to avoid answering the question.


----------



## A3DFU

John-H said:


> I think both concepts fail on being able to recognise it and knowing when to stop.


Hence my [smiley=end.gif]


----------



## Shug750S

bobclive22 said:


> Bob seriously man did you have to lap up everything the pro brexit camp were saying and then take all this on as fact for how you live your life from now on?
> 
> 
> 
> Unlike you lot I am actually living with the consequences of mass unskilled EU immigration, it obviously hasn`t reached your door step yet.
> 
> As for picking comments off the internet, it`s a darn more enlightening media than your beloved Guardian or News at ten. You will notice that the comments I posted from that legal forum were from mainly remain voting barristers, so there was NO cherry picking.
> 
> As Mansfield voted out by the highest margin in the country, it would be interesting to see which way the IN leaning Mansfield Labour MP and others would vote if these barristers get their way
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is the concept that an infinite number of monkeys with typewriters will eventually come up with the works of Shakespeare.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Here we go, ad hominem.
Click to expand...

Bob, I said over a week ago I would stop arguing with you, and since then have only posted a couple of light hearted posts. But you are seriously worrying.

Your point above "Unlike you lot I am actually living with the consequences of mass unskilled EU immigration, it obviously hasn`t reached your door step yet." is strange.

When I posted a while back that in my local supermarket I was a minority, a few suggested I was racist. I am not, I was just posting the facts.

In my local high street even the big issue seller is Romanian, surely they can be homeless in their own country? Plus I think London probably has more low income immigrants than Mansfield, but I'm sure you will find some quote somewhere on the web and prove me wrong.

I would suggest you pop down here and have a look if you think immigration doesn't affect us down here (who incidentally are probably paying a disproportionate amount of tax compared to you to support same immigrants) but are willing to accept them into our great country, as long as they really are in need.

My barber, an Iranian who cares here 20 years ago as an asylum seaker, and now runs his own barber shop, and seemed proud that he now pays tax and doesn't get any benefits, was telling me last week when I was there that he thinks there are major issues with immigration at present, and they should stop any more. I really didn't know how to respond, as he is a big brexit supporter (ironic?)


----------



## John-H

I expect it's due to gradual poisoning by newspapers, people repeating it and the need to fit in that explains it.

Many ex-pats are not happy:
https://votes-for-expat-brits-blog.com/


----------



## bobclive22

> In my local high street even the big issue seller is Romanian,


*Snap*.



> I would suggest you pop down here and have a look if you think immigration doesn't affect us down here (who incidentally are probably paying a disproportionate amount of tax compared to you to support same immigrants) *but are willing to accept them into our great country, as long as they really are in need.*


You still don`t get it do you, it`s NOT the immigrants as a whole that is the problem, it`s the LARGE numbers of *UNSKILLED *immigrants forcing wages down which in turn reduces the wealth of the area which causes local shops to close to be replaced with the likes of poundLand and similar stores, *even your Iranian barber understands the problem, obviously you don`t. *



> My barber, an Iranian who cares here 20 years ago as an asylum seaker, and now runs his own barber shop, and seemed proud that he now pays tax and doesn't get any benefits, was telling me last week when I was there that* he thinks there are major issues with immigration at present, and they should stop any more.* I really didn't know how to respond, as he is a big brexit supporter (ironic?)





> I expect it's due to gradual poisoning by newspapers, people repeating it and the need to fit in that explains it.


It wasn`t misinformation that caused Brexit it was actual real life experience of unchecked EU immigration, Do you see Poundland, Lidle or Aldi and similar low value stores dominate your local shopping area, I think not, when it happens you may change your mind and wish you had voted leave.


----------



## bobclive22

> Many ex-pats are not happy:


If you want to live in Spain long term or even permanently, *you will need to apply for either permanent residence or become a Spanish citizen. *After you have lived in Spain for five years you can apply for permanent residence and after 10 years you can apply for Spanish nationality, although exemptions exist that allow certain people to apply sooner, for example, if you are married to a Spaniard or the child of a Spanish parent. Both Spanish citizenship and permanent residency allow you to stay living in Spain, but some differences exist between the two.

If they applied for citizenship there is no problem I believe, Spain does not recognise dual citizenship.

Brexit: British expats in Spain

It is unclear how the UK's vote to leave the EU will affect British expats living in Spain or wishing to relocate to Spain. British expats who already live in Spain might consider applying for Spanish citizenship if they meet the necessary criteria to main EU access. However, this also means surrending their British citizenship. British expats may also be asked in future to apply for a Blue Card, an approved EU-wide work permit that allows high-skilled, non-EU citizens to work and live in Spain and other EU countries.

http://www.expatica.com/es/visas-and-pe ... 07634.html


----------



## A3DFU

Spaceman10 said:


> The EU will fall apart very soon


Did you get your crystal ball out again? :roll:


----------



## bobclive22

*Germany's Siemens embraces 'Project Optimism' in Brexit U-turn *

Europe's largest industrial combine has vowed to press ahead with investment in Britain despite the vote to leave the EU, backing away deftly from earlier suggestions that Brexit would cause a painful freeze on new activities.

Joe Kaeser, the chief executive of Siemens, said the German engineering and technology giant remains fully committed to the UK whatever happens, but called on Theresa May to clarify Britain's post-Brexit trade vision as soon as possible and tell the world what kind of country it will become.

"We're here for the long-term and we don't let ourselves get jerked up and down. We're staying because the UK is a good place to do business," he said.

Mr Kaeser said the company had been misunderstood in the heat of the Brexit campaign when it was widely seen as a cheer-leader for Remain. Corporate damage-control is underway at the highest level.

"*We never said the UK is in bad shape if it leaves the EU: we said the EU would miss a massive opportunity.* Without the UK, the EU may never be able to stand up against superpowers like China and the US," he told the

*Different day different tune.*

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/201 ... it-u-turn/


----------



## bobclive22

Analysis: Julian Miglierini, BBC News, Rome

Italy is not the sick man of Europe", Italian Prime Minister Matteo Renzi said on Tuesday - trying to fight back the perception that his country's economic woes constitute the most severe threat to the eurozone this summer.

On both main concerns - Italy's troubled banks and low growth estimates - the prime minister has this week deflected the attention (and blame) elsewhere.

On Monday, he said that the Italian banks were being unfairly singled out - *since other European banks had much bigger problems.* Many interpreted this as a swipe at Germany's Deutsche Bank, which is dealing with its own troubles.

And on Tuesday, Renzi blamed low growth estimates *on the uncertainty that has followed the UK's decision to leave the European Union,* and said it would be the UK, and not Italy or the EU, who would pay the highest cost.

The increasing fears over Italy's economy couldn't come at a worst time for Renzi.

He's fighting a rise in the polls of the Five Star protest party and the increasing prospects that he may lose a referendum over a major constitutional reform he has called for later this year.
*
Who`d have thought a small island off the coast of Europe could have such an effect.*


----------



## Shug750S

bobclive22 said:


> In my local high street even the big issue seller is Romanian,
> 
> 
> 
> You still don`t get it do you, it`s NOT the immigrants as a whole that is the problem, it`s the LARGE numbers of *UNSKILLED *immigrants forcing wages down which in turn reduces the wealth of the area which causes local shops to close to be replaced with the likes of poundLand and similar stores
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you see Poundland, Lidle or Aldi and similar low value stores dominate your local shopping area, I think not, when it happens you may change your mind and wish you had voted leave.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Sorry Bob, I clearly don't get it. You are so correct obviously.

To answer a couple of your points:

The local Romanian big issue seller is an example of unskilled immigrants, so what exactly are you disputing? I have talked with her and there are a group of them doing this as they have no skills (but you could be right she might be an investment banker or lawyer, I could be wrong)

Yes, believe it or not my local high street has numerous poundland, Lidl (who actually have the UK HQ within two miles of my house) and Aldi, plus numerous charity shops and other low value stores. Or did you think my local high street only has Harrods, John Lewis etc (just to clarify it doesn't) and we all get chauffeured around in our Bentleys?

Clearly the 'rich' south is not quite how you imagine it, after high rents and mortgage payments many down here have less disposable income than people I know in the 'poor' north.

Anyway popped in for a bit, but walking away now, as like others on here have found there's limited point trying to discuss anything without abuse or comments like 'you just don't get it'

Let's pick this thread up in three years and we can compare notes on how it went. BTW do you know where those millions for the NHS went?

Cheers and bye!


----------



## Spaceman10

No A3DFU I have not, just friend in parts of Europe telling me what happening over there 
a lot of people are not happy with what the masters of the Eu are doing and that Merkel is not doing them any favours.
Again you just have to look at France Spain and Italy to see how bad thing are getting


----------



## A3DFU

bobclive22 said:


> 'Project Optimism'


Some 'definitions' for project:

Project: 
"it's not that we lied per se..."
"we're continuing with the contracts we already have in place but will be investing less" 
"we'll continue to invest in domestic trade but maybe not the export market that you need right now" 
"read through article before you make smug remarks"


----------



## A3DFU

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36777494


----------



## bobclive22

> The local Romanian big issue seller is an example of unskilled immigrants, so what exactly are you disputing? I have talked with her and there are a group of them doing this as they have no skills


You made my point precisely, (unskilled immigrants).



> Yes, believe it or not my local high street has numerous poundland, Lidl (who actually have the UK HQ within two miles of my house) and Aldi, plus numerous charity shops and other low value stores. Or did you think my local high street only has Harrods, John Lewis etc (just to clarify it doesn't) and we all get chauffeured around in our Bentleys?


So you like it like that, it appears your Turkish barber doesn`t, 20 years ago when this issue wasn`t a problem he probably came from poverty in Turkey for a better life in the UK and can see where this mass immigration is now heading. Are you saying you are happy to have Poundland and charity shops sooner than Next or Marks and Spencer.

This is a good read, it clearly shows that immigration was the main reason the nation voted leave, it`s a guardian article so it should be acceptable to the remainers.

*New Labour failed to predict a surge in immigration - and their miscalculation has shaped British politics ever since. Could they have handled it differently? (it also caused the referendum which ended with EXIT)*

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2015/m ... side-story


----------



## Spandex

A3DFU said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36777494


Yeah, not really sure I get the point of that. We already know more than 4 million people would like a 2nd referendum because more than 4 million people voted against leaving. What I'd really like to see is a debate on what would make a new referendum necessary. Put some lines in the sand so we don't sleepwalk into a decision that was (potentially) made months or even years earlier despite significant changes in the status quo since then.


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> This is a good read, it clearly shows that immigration was the main reason the nation voted leave


No, it clearly *suggests* that immigration was the main reason the nation voted leave. You really need to learn the difference between facts and opinions.

Oh, and pound store growth is a result of the economic issues since the recession affecting our shopping habits and leading to the collapse of big retailers (like Woolworth), which is why growth of pound stores has slowed and in some cases reversed in the last year or so as the economy picked up. So, ironically, brexit may lead to more pound stores if the economy takes a hit.


----------



## bobclive22

> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36777494


It is a total load of nonsense. It is being debated in the second debating chamber. It is being done, *not* to support the call for a second referendum but to allow MPs to put forward a range of views from their constituents.

I heard this comment on the Andrew Marr show but found the reference in the Express :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## John-H

Spandex said:


> A3DFU said:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36777494
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, not really sure I get the point of that. We already know more than 4 million people would like a 2nd referendum because more than 4 million people voted against leaving. What I'd really like to see is a debate on what would make a new referendum necessary. Put some lines in the sand so we don't sleepwalk into a decision that was (potentially) made months or even years earlier despite significant changes in the status quo since then.
Click to expand...

Might be an idea to tell your MP so he can raise it in the debate which needn't stick to a rigid discussion of the impossibility of retrospective legislation - more a vehicle with weight of feelings raised :wink:


----------



## bobclive22

> No,* it clearly suggests that immigration was the main reason the nation voted leave*. You really need to learn the difference between facts and opinions.
> 
> Oh, and pound store growth is a result of the economic issues since the recession affecting our shopping habits and leading to the collapse of big retailers (like Woolworth), which is why growth of pound stores has slowed and in some cases reversed in the last year or so as the economy picked up. So, ironically, brexit may lead to more pound stores if the economy takes a hit.


*New Labour failed to predict a surge in immigration - and their miscalculation has shaped British politics ever since. Could they have handled it differently? (it also caused the referendum which ended with EXIT)*

Perhaps you might inform me what other major issue caused that result, other than all those nasty lies that us plebs swallowed hook line and sinker.


----------



## Shug750S

bobclive22 said:


> The local Romanian big issue seller is an example of unskilled immigrants, so what exactly are you disputing? I have talked with her and there are a group of them doing this as they have no skills
> 
> 
> 
> You made my point precisely, (unskilled immigrants) *thought you said we didn't have any? Make your mind up.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, believe it or not my local high street has numerous poundland, Lidl (who actually have the UK HQ within two miles of my house) and Aldi, plus numerous charity shops and other low value stores. Or did you think
> 
> So you like it like that, it appears your Turkish barber doesn`t, *when did he become Turkish? Read the original post *
> 
> Are you saying you are happy to have Poundland and charity shops sooner than Next or Marks and Spencer.* Ah, new question, you indicated we didn't have these places earlier*
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Funny how you ask a question, pick the answers apart and ignore other responses.

P.S. Have you found where the promised NHS money went yet?


----------



## bobclive22

> So you like it like that, it appears your Turkish barber doesn`t, when did he become Turkish? Read the original post


So he was Iranian, makes no difference to my response.

Regarding the NHS number, this was just fluff and was not a serious factor for the exit voter, it was fully explained before the vote, it appears the remain voter actually believed the figure quoted but as they voted remain it`s of no consequence.


----------



## jamman

You have to love (or loath) Bobs view on life.

So blinkered and bigoted.

As my Ola just mentioned "sad and nasty little man ignore him I've seen his type many times before life has made him jealous and bitter, I pity him"

Looks like the Polish have forgiven you. :lol:


----------



## Shug750S

bobclive22 said:


> So you like it like that, it appears your Turkish barber doesn`t, when did he become Turkish? Read the original post
> 
> 
> 
> So he was Iranian, makes no difference to my response.
> 
> Regarding the NHS number, this was just fluff and was not a serious factor for the exit voter, it was fully explained before the vote, it appears the remain voter actually believed the figure quoted but as they voted remain it`s of no consequence.
Click to expand...

Yeah Bob, yet again you're right. In your own little world.

So all that cash promised by Boris and his mates was 'fluff' and not a serious factor for the exit voter. But the remain voters believed it.

Jog on son.


----------



## John-H

John-H said:


> Spandex said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A3DFU said:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36777494
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, not really sure I get the point of that. We already know more than 4 million people would like a 2nd referendum because more than 4 million people voted against leaving. What I'd really like to see is a debate on what would make a new referendum necessary. Put some lines in the sand so we don't sleepwalk into a decision that was (potentially) made months or even years earlier despite significant changes in the status quo since then.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Might be an idea to tell your MP so he can raise it in the debate which needn't stick to a rigid discussion of the impossibility of retrospective legislation - more a vehicle with weight of feelings raised :wink:
Click to expand...

Confirmed....



Petitions: UK Government and Parliament said:


> The Committee has decided that the huge number of people signing this petition means that it should be debated by MPs. The Petitions Committee would like to make clear that, in scheduling this debate, they are not supporting the call for a second referendum. The debate will allow MPs to put forward a range of views on behalf of their constituents. At the end of the debate, a Government Minister will respond to the points raised.
> 
> A debate in Westminster Hall does not have the power to change the law, and won't end with the House of Commons deciding whether or not to have a second referendum. Moreover, the petition - which was opened on 25 May, well before the referendum - calls for the referendum rules to be changed. It is now too late for the rules to be changed retrospectively. It will be up to the Government to decide whether it wants to start the process of agreeing a new law for a second referendum.


----------



## bobclive22

> Yeah Bob, yet again you're right. In your own little world.
> 
> So all that cash promised by Boris and his mates was 'fluff' and not a serious factor for the exit voter. But the remain voters believed it.
> 
> Jog on son.


Labour MPs criticise 'out of touch' party as traditional support vote Brexit

But backbencher John Mann, who switched to back Leave in the final weeks of the campaign, said the party was paying the price for ignoring the concerns of working class people on issues such* immigration.*

"Labour has gone wrong by *not being in touch with its voters*, I've been saying this for the last 10 years in *relation to immigration and free movement of labour,*" he told BBC News.

"I've said it for the last 10 years repeatedly and *what we're offering working class people, what the country's offering, is zero hours contracts, agency work, insecurity, and people are sick to death of it, they've had enough.*

"And that's why, in my area and elsewhere, Labour voters have voted in huge numbers to leave the European Union."

*That`s the reason the uk voted Brexit, open your eyes.*

Another ad hominem, it appears my little world is a little bit bigger than yours. [smiley=baby.gif] [smiley=baby.gif] [smiley=baby.gif]

http://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/lab ... te-brexit/


----------



## jamman

Listen folks I know three forum members that voted leave that won't post on this thread anymore because they don't want to be associated with some of the bigoted misinformed tripe Bob is posting.

I would suggest that without being too disrespectful Bob isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer and that carrying this on is a complete waste of time because he's just ignoring intelligent questions and quoting mostly gibberish.


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> Labour MPs criticise 'out of touch' party as traditional support vote Brexit


I think maybe you need to open your eyes Bob. The Labour MPs who are very overtly criticising their parties performance are doing so purely to force Corbyn out, so it would be foolish to take what they say as gospel. You'll notice that the Labour party got within 1% of the SNP remain vote, yet no one is trying to claim that SNP are out of touch, or that Sturgeon failed to campaign well.

It's obvious that you take anything that agrees with your pre-existing views at face value with no real critial analysis applied. This, combined with your constant quoting and linking with no actual personal input makes it very difficult to take you seriously. If I want to read loads of links, I can do that without your help - so what are you actually contributing?


----------



## John-H

Well, trying to find out what the Brexit plan is for the economy, trade, etc is one thing that seems difficult to extract but the reasons why people voted as they did without being able to define a plan is another question. This makes a stab at why:

http://www.perc.org.uk/project_posts/th ... of-brexit/


----------



## John-H

So BoJo is made Foreign Secretary - well the rest of the world will take us seriously then.

I also see that the government admit that the best trade negotiators are in the EU and are trying to either recruit negotiators from there or bring ex-civil servant negotiators out of retirement to lead a Dad's army team - is Boris going to be Captain Mainwearing? :lol:


----------



## A3DFU

All of this is a farce. Surely I'll wake up from this nightmare any moment now?


----------



## cheechy

Good to know that Bojo is in the cabinet as foreign secretary.

We could do with someone in there that follows up his convictions and doesn't run away at the sight of blood. :lol:

Is this cabinet meant to fill the UK and prospective investors with hope??


----------



## Spaceman10

Looks like a team which may be able to get us out of Europe 
Glad to see the Labour Party can't sort out their problem with all the infighting, I can see a break away party on its way 
And and to top it all off, more vote for ukip 
Interesting time ahead


----------



## John-H

cheechy said:


> Good to know that Bojo is in the cabinet as foreign secretary.
> 
> We could do with someone in there that follows up his convictions and doesn't run away at the sight of blood. :lol:
> 
> Is this cabinet meant to fill the UK and prospective investors with hope??


I can see the back of the queue negotiations with the US given Boris's previous comment about Hillary Clinton:



Boris Johnson said:


> ... a sadistic nurse in a mental hospital


 :roll: :lol: [smiley=bigcry.gif]

He's now in charge of MI6 too!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: [smiley=bigcry.gif] [smiley=bigcry.gif] [smiley=bigcry.gif]


----------



## Von Twinzig

John-H said:


> cheechy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good to know that Bojo is in the cabinet as foreign secretary.
> 
> We could do with someone in there that follows up his convictions and doesn't run away at the sight of blood. :lol:
> 
> Is this cabinet meant to fill the UK and prospective investors with hope??
> 
> 
> 
> I can see the back of the queue negotiations with the US given Boris's previous comment about Hillary Clinton:
> 
> 
> 
> Boris Johnson said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... a sadistic nurse in a mental hospital
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> :roll: :lol: [smiley=bigcry.gif]
> 
> He's now in charge of MI6 too!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: [smiley=bigcry.gif] [smiley=bigcry.gif] [smiley=bigcry.gif]
Click to expand...

So when are the trapeze artists and the bloke being fired out of the cannon due on? I'm afraid of clowns. [smiley=party2.gif]

VT


----------



## rustyintegrale

I was sceptical, but I felt Theresa May's speech outside No 10 was actually quite positive. I hope she can translate her intentions to actions and we have to give her the chance.

Regarding Boris' appointment, I guess it had to happen. May has to show that she intends to follow through Brexit and by leaving him out of the Cabinet it sends a negative message. He is also supposed to be multi-lingual although I'm not sure some of his wilder ramblings will translate nicely to some foreign languages. As long as she doesn't give Gove any position at all I'll be reasonably happy...

What I do know for sure, is all this uncertainty needs to end sooner rather than later. My business is severely affected by the poor $/£ rate because I source a lot of parts from the US. I've also noticed a big drop in business generally. Even routine enquiries are down and work already quoted seems to have stalled or been put on the back burner.

Not good.


----------



## John-H

Yes, regarding her speech, Ed Miliband said he has some more material should she wish to use it.

I don't wish to depress you but the bank of England are likely to reduce interest rates as a fiscal stimulus ahead of a likely recession. This is likely to send the pound lower against the dollar and boost UK share values.

On a cheerier note, having BoJo the clown as Foreign Secretary and prominent Brexit campaigners in the cabinet could be seen as a shrewd move - it's they that will have to come up with the plan (singularly lacking so far) and deal with negotiations, so if the UK's options then turn out to be far worse than we have now they'll get the blame and May won't be accused of rigging things to fail by putting pro EU people in charge. At that point we or parliament could have a potential choice to make.


----------



## rustyintegrale

John-H said:


> On a cheerier note, having BoJo the clown as Foreign Secretary and prominent Brexit campaigners in the cabinet could be seen as a shrewd move - it's they that will have to come up with the plan (singularly lacking so far) and deal with negotiations, so if the UK's options then turn out to be far worse than we have now they'll get the blame and May won't be accused of rigging things to fail by putting pro EU people in charge.


I disagree with your blame scenario John. She'll get the flak whatever happens because she is the Prime Minister and she has made her choices for the Cabinet.

Looking from another angle, maybe a wholesale cock-up will lead to a reassessment of the referendum result and perhaps that's her plan?

But all this game-play politics is costing UK plc a bloody fortune so it has to stop. It now seems house prices are also taking a dive. Great.


----------



## John-H

You are right that she'll be held responsible either way but when I said they'll get the blame I meant them and their ideas, which being optimistic could provide a turning point along with a shift in public opinion by then. If they come up with a workable plan against all likelihood then she would be part of the success anyway. If that's her plan that's clever. Damaging in the mean time though and a ridiculous situation to be in. I can't believe all the praise heaped on Cameron who got us into this mess.


----------



## Spandex

Yeah, I'm not sure about the blame theory.. If there is an 'unbrexit' plot going on, I think it's more likely that May is just making sure that no one can accuse her of not taking brexit seriously. So if there is a future attempt to offer a new referendum choice she can claim this wasn't her plan from the start, it's just a response to a changing situation.

Although chances are it's simply a means to unite the party. Although we think Johnson is a liability, remember he was well enough respected in the Leave camp of his party that it was considered a given that he would become PM. Many of his supporters in the party won't blame him for quitting, they'll blame Gove for stabbing him in the back, so he's still seen as a serious MP.


----------



## John-H

Yes, there is not necessarily an anti Brexit plot as such as it could just be pragmatism but either way it's a means to jump off the runaway train if the opportunity is taken.


----------



## bobclive22

> But all this game-play politics is costing UK plc a bloody fortune so it has to stop. It now seems house prices are also taking a dive. Great.


You don`t buy houses in the holiday season, taking a dive, where.


----------



## rustyintegrale

bobclive22 said:


> But all this game-play politics is costing UK plc a bloody fortune so it has to stop. It now seems house prices are also taking a dive. Great.
> 
> 
> 
> You don`t buy houses in the holiday season, taking a dive, where.
Click to expand...

Try this...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36783938

Breakfast news this morning reported that buyers are demanding last-minute discounts on house purchases because of reports of an impending drop in prices. This is backed up by estate agents reporting 'as expected' new property numbers being added to the market. Strangely that is being accompanied by a reduction of buyers through the doors. You'd expect that figure to be roughly equal given that people have to live somewhere.

We are buying a house in 'holiday season' as you put it. Our estate agent reports that the period May to October is their 'season'. I wasn't aware that there was any 'holiday season' in the UK apart from Christmas when everything but essential services and retail appears to close between Christmas Eve and January 2nd.


----------



## bobclive22

> Listen folks I know three forum members that voted leave that won't post on this thread anymore because they don't want to be associated with some of the bigoted misinformed tripe Bob is posting.
> 
> I would suggest that without being too disrespectful Bob isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer and that carrying this on is a complete waste of time because he's just ignoring intelligent questions and quoting mostly gibberish.


*Ad hominem and vitriol,* is that all you have to offer, if you believe 17 million voters voted exit because of a poster on the side of a bus then I am afraid you are very misguided.

Osborne was sacked not because of his Project Fear scaremongering during the Referendum campaign but that the result was totally the reverse of what was expected. Other than frightening the voter with dire economic forecasts there was little chance of the remain camp ever winning, note the Scottish referendum, You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time.

*Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics, the Scottish Independence Referendum 'Facts'*

There were many scaremongering headlines in the press, particularly around currency issues and the economy. Importantly, research has shown that repeated exposure to media messages can impact on public opinion and social change. The authors of that research suggest that repeated exposure to negative messages about the uncertainty of the economy and currency issues may have limited the impact of the 'Yes' campaign. Furthermore, *it could be argued that this repeated exposure to negative messages and scaremongering about Scotland may also have shaped the opinion and attitudes of the people in England,*----------*Yes, we didn`t belive the bulls**T and voted leave,* the main reason though was uncontrolled immigration and that will be the most important item in the negotiations.

https://oucriminology.wordpress.com/icc ... dum-facts/

(Full Definition of bigot. : a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : *one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance.*)

So in your eyes controlling immigration makes me a bigot, me and over 17 million others I believe.


----------



## bobclive22

> We are buying a house in 'holiday season' as you put it.


Have you requested a discount.



> Strangely that is being accompanied by a reduction of buyers through the doors. You'd expect that figure to be roughly equal given that people have to live somewhere


.

It`s buy to let mate, I and thousands of other buy to letter`s bought properties, (in my case 2) before the April stamp duty deadline, there was a surge now it`s ended.


----------



## A3DFU

Interesting article and charts:

https://www.poundsterlinglive.com/gbp-l ... e-changing

But possibly even more interesting is the following sentence:



> She [Theresa May] was an advocate for the 'Remain' campaign, albeit a quiet one, but the fact she was not in the Brexit camp is likely to reassure markets she may put economics before principle.


----------



## Shug750S

rustyintegrale said:


> What I do know for sure, is all this uncertainty needs to end sooner rather than later. My business is severely affected by the poor $/£ rate because I source a lot of parts from the US. I've also noticed a big drop in business generally. Even routine enquiries are down and work already quoted seems to have stalled or been put on the back burner.
> 
> Not good.


Sorry to hear that you're seeing business dropping. A few of my mates have their own businesses and they have said they've noticed enquirers dropping off too with all this uncertainty.

I'm sure Bob will be along with some quotes soon to show you are wrong though and your enquiries have gone through the roof.


----------



## jamman

bobclive22 said:


> (Full Definition of bigot. : a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : *one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance.*)
> 
> So in your eyes controlling immigration makes me a bigot, me and over 17 million others I believe.


No just you, you are far too ignorant to realize there is a world of difference between you and many (not all) leave voters.

That above description is YOU

"A very important man in his own internet world"


----------



## John-H

You have a reprieve Rich - interest rates on hold for now.

By the way, did anyone read this? :
http://www.perc.org.uk/project_posts/th ... of-brexit/


----------



## bobclive22

> No just you, you are far too ignorant to realize there is a world of difference between you and many (not all) leave voters.


I think your profile pic says it all but I won`t bring myself down to your level.


----------



## bobclive22

*Eight reasons Leave won the UK's referendum on the EU*

But the fact the public discounted so readily the advice of experts points to something more than just a revolt against the establishment. It suggested far more people felt left behind and untouched by the economic benefits of five decades of EU involvement being trumpeted.

What appears clear from the campaign is that the vote to Leave was as much a statement about the *country's national identity, and all that involves,* as it was about its economic and political future.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-e ... m-36574526


----------



## bobclive22

*Dis-May-ed! DECC scrapped, Leadsom to run Environment*

It just gets better, Brexit and now this, lets get fracking. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

http://www.theecologist.org/News/news_r ... nment.html


----------



## Spandex

I'm in the middle of a game of 'Bobs Irrational Hatred Bingo'. So far I have:

1. Foreigners
2. The environment
3. Greens (not clear if it was the political party or the vegetables or both)
4. Young people
5. Experts

Still looking for 'Everything invented in the last 30 years' to complete a line. Come on Bob, we can do it. [smiley=book2.gif]


----------



## Shug750S

Spandex said:


> I'm in the middle of a game of 'Bobs Irrational Hatred Bingo'. So far I have:
> 
> 1. Foreigners
> 2. The environment
> 3. Greens (not clear if it was the political party or the vegetables or both)
> 4. Young people
> 5. Experts
> 
> Still looking for 'Everything invented in the last 30 years' to complete a line. Come on Bob, we can do it. [smiley=book2.gif]


PMSL Spandey...

15 - love (awaiting return from you know who)


----------



## jamman

bobclive22 said:


> No just you, you are far too ignorant to realize there is a world of difference between you and many (not all) leave voters.
> 
> 
> 
> I think your profile pic says it all but I won`t bring myself down to your level.
Click to expand...

Bob you are already way way below, you just aren't intelligent enough to realize what your years of hatred, jealousy and bitterness have turned you into.

It's very sad to see so much hatred in a person, reminds me of the sad NF days.


----------



## bobclive22

> I'm in the middle of a game of 'Bobs Irrational Hatred Bingo'. So far I have:
> 
> 1. Foreigners
> 2. The environment
> 3. Greens (not clear if it was the political party or the vegetables or both)
> 4. Young people
> 5. Experts
> 
> Still looking for 'Everything invented in the last 30 years' to complete a line. Come on Bob, we can do it.


(1) As long as they are skilled and are needed i`m OK with that.

(2) I will accept real data not the garbage out of computer models GIGO.

(3) They are the one reason the UK is running out of energy, don`t like fracking, don`t like nuclear, but are happy with wind mills and solar panels and when you get your smart meter the energy companies will be able to turn you off.
(4) where did that come from.

(5) To many of them and they get it wrong more often than not, if you believe the experts and the economy is going to tank liquidate all your possessions and place your bet, you should make a fortune.

By the way as AGW skeptics we get this endless vitriol from the true believers, I presume you are one.


----------



## Spandex

Yes! Glad to see you're taking this game as seriously as I am!


----------



## jamman

30 - love


----------



## Shug750S

He's probably working on a video replay to check now....

"I saw chalk dust....."


----------



## bobclive22

*A Brexit economic strategy for Britain*

Economic growth in the UK has been founded on a number of *unhealthy characteristics in the last decade or so. It has depended above all on large population increases based on uncontrolled mass migration.* This has made the economy bigger, but not necessarily better for individual citizens, as shown by GDP per capita growth rates of two per cent or less - significantly weaker than in most decades since the Second World War. It has depended on moving a large number of people moving out of unemployment, which is good, but because the new jobs tend to be low paid it created a low productivity economy. And it all depends far too much on domestic demand, which even after 2008 is excessively funded by consumer credit. This is unsustainable in the long run.

So we need to shift our economy towards a more export-led growth strategy, based on higher productivity employment. Fortunately, this will prove eminently possible as a part of a Brexit-based economic strategy. Indeed, far from being the risky option that many have claimed, Brexit gives us many tools to deal with the very serious economic challenges that the country will face in the coming decades.

*So be under no doubt: we can do deals with our trading partners, and we can do them quickly. * I would expect the new Prime Minister on September 9th to immediately trigger a large round of global trade deals with all our most favoured trade partners. I would expect that the negotiation phase of most of them to be concluded within between 12 and 24 months.

*Taking back control of trade*

First of all, *leaving the EU gives us back control of our trade policy,* and gives us the opportunity to *maximise returns from free trade.*

Because any deals currently settled are obtained by finding a 28 nation compromise, the EU is clumsy at negotiating free trade deals. That is why we currently only have trade deals with two of our top ten non-EU trading partners. This is incredibly important to us, as about 60 per cent of our trade is with the non-EU world. In fact, we sell as much to non-EU countries with which we have no trade agreements as we do to the EU.

http://www.conservativehome.com/platfor ... itain.html

*I thought this apt, *

*Lord Rose*,

*"A win is a win. If we get to 50.001% it is a win*. I want to win, but we will win by a substantial margin," he said.

If he could accept a remain win of 0.001% why are you lot complaining about an exit win of 3.8%. [smiley=baby.gif] [smiley=baby.gif] [smiley=bigcry.gif] [smiley=bigcry.gif] [smiley=bigcry.gif]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 54951.html


----------



## Spandex

Well bugger me Bob. You've only gone and proved you've been right all along. I honestly didn't think you could do it but you really pulled it out the bag by quoting an unbiased, factual article suggesting that we will be better off out of the EU, written by the man who's been put in charge of leaving the EU. Inspiring stuff.

P.s. I'm still playing Bobs Irrational Hatred Bingo and I need you to step up and be a team player here. Can you give me your thoughts on, say, 'selfies'? Or maybe kids in hoodies and low-slung trousers? Ooooh, how do you feel about feminists?


----------



## Shug750S

40 - love.

Game point...


----------



## Von Twinzig

I've been watching this from the seated area behind the umpire and Robinsons Barley Water. Can somebody tell me the score please?

Also the rules; what's *the significance* of writing *in bold?* I'm *confused*.

On the subject of Johnny Foreigners: had a couple of nice Eastern European chaps, employed by a hard working half Sicilian half Tunisian chap who we came across last year (he had the gumption to have some cards printed and stick them through letterboxes rather than standing, drinking a can of Special Brew whilst queuing up at the benefits office with the other feckless Brits), cleaning our decking today. Hard working. Didn't stop. Phones off and in their pockets. Back Monday to paint it once it's dry. With sign language we worked out one chap didn't want a drink, the other, black coffee with 2 sugars. They did such a good job they'll be cutting all the hedges and sorting the borders out too next week and I'll be paying them more than they quoted as I've always done. Basically the regular rate for the job.

Norm, who is now the boss, and his mate Mazzy worked 'til 22:00 last summer evening to get the thing stripped back and painted so we could have a family BBQ. No phones, no lunch, dinner was us feeding them, they didn't stop. No English guy would have done that for us. I know. I've employed and sacked off most of them over the years. Fecking useless workers. Rock up late, off in the van 4 times a day for a sarnie, in the pub by 16:30. Come the revolution who's going to do this for me, or for that matter, hoe the weeds around the fields of onions on my mate Mike's farm? Some nice English chap? Do me a favour.

I don't know Bob from a hole in the ground (fortunately, from what I read), but I'm surprised this hasn't been wheeled out and fired....






Right, I'm off to have a Bulldog wearing a Union Flag waistcoat tattooed on my calf.That should go down a storm at the regional PCGB meetings. Who's with me? 

VT


----------



## bobclive22

> Lord Rose,
> 
> "A win is a win. If we get to* 50.001% it is a win*. I want to win, but we will win by a substantial margin," he said.


What no comment on my earlier post Spandex, *it appears 0.001% is an acceptable margin for the remain brigade but 3.8% the other way and they spit out their dummies.* If you change your profile pic to Mr Happy instead of Mr grumpy you might enjoy life a little more. I suggest you now accept the result and get on with life.

The icing on the cake for me is *the scrapping of DEC *and hopefully the nail in the coffin of this AGW rubbish.
By the way *it was the EU that stopped the dredging of the ***** and rivers in the UK*, if dredging had continued as it had for hundreds of years there would probably have been no flooding of the Somerset levels and less severe flooding elsewhere, that`s one more reason to exit the EU.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/colu ... olicy.html


----------



## bobclive22

> Also the rules; what's *the significance* of writing *in bold*? I'm *confused*.


It`s called *emphasis*, next lesson.


----------



## jamman

A lesson in empathy ?

Actually anything remotely educational would be a step forward.


----------



## Von Twinzig

bobclive22 said:


> Also the rules; what's *the significance* of writing *in bold*? I'm *confused*.
> 
> 
> 
> It`s called *emphasis*, next lesson.
Click to expand...

Is that like shouting and pointing in a debate? If so it's unnecessary. I read a lot and at no time do the correspondence feel the need to embolden any of their copy to make their point. If the point is made intelligently it is not required. Except maybe by Red Top headline writers, but I don't read those. Maybe that's where it emanated from. Maybe that's the issue.

Anyway, moving on. What was the score again?

VT


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> Lord Rose,
> 
> "A win is a win. If we get to* 50.001% it is a win*. I want to win, but we will win by a substantial margin," he said.
> 
> 
> 
> What no comment on my earlier post Spandex, *it appears 0.001% is an acceptable margin for the remain brigade but 3.8% the other way and they spit out their dummies.* If you change your profile pic to Mr Happy instead of Mr grumpy you might enjoy life a little more. I suggest you now accept the result and get on with life.
> 
> The icing on the cake for me is *the scrapping of DEC *and hopefully the nail in the coffin of this AGW rubbish.
> By the way *it was the EU that stopped the dredging of the ***** and rivers in the UK*, if dredging had continued as it had for hundreds of years there would probably have been no flooding of the Somerset levels and less severe flooding elsewhere, that`s one more reason to exit the EU.
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/colu ... olicy.html
Click to expand...

Come on Bob, you're ruining my game. Tell you what, you answer my questions if I answer yours?

1. There is no acceptable margin for Leave winning. The issues I have with leaving the EU wouldn't suddenly be fixed because more people voted for it. If anything, the more people like you in the world, the sadder I'd be.
2. The EU doesn't ban dredging (https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/su ... oundation/). You're pretty bloody gullible.

So, how do you feel about:
1. Selfies.
2. Kids in hoodies and low slung trousers.
3. Feminists.


----------



## John-H

bobclive22 said:


> Lord Rose,
> 
> "A win is a win. If we get to* 50.001% it is a win*. I want to win, but we will win by a substantial margin," he said.
> 
> 
> 
> What no comment on my earlier post Spandex, *it appears 0.001% is an acceptable margin for the remain brigade but 3.8% the other way and they spit out their dummies.* ...
Click to expand...

Like this?



Nigel Farrage said:


> In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it.
> http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/24/remember- ... m-5963900/


----------



## Shug750S

Von Twinzig said:


> I've been watching this from the seated area behind the umpire and Robinsons Barley Water. Can somebody tell me the score please?
> 
> Also the rules; what's *the significance* of writing *in bold?* I'm *confused*.


And he serves an *Ace* that goes right over Bob's head. First game over. Towels please.

Wait 'till he finds the _italics_ button :lol:

Anyway, after a short break it'll be Bob to serve...


----------



## Spandex

Interesting/depressing:

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/07 ... y-s-brexit


----------



## barry_m2

My god, you're dragging this one on a bit aren't you!!?

This is now officially the most boring thread on the forum, with just the 4 of you arguing amongst yourselves. :lol:

[smiley=argue.gif]


----------



## Spandex

barry_m2 said:


> My god, you're dragging this one on a bit aren't you!!?
> 
> This is now officially the most boring thread on the forum, with just the 4 of you arguing amongst yourselves. :lol:
> 
> [smiley=argue.gif]


If only there was a simple solution to stop you being bored by this thread... God, what could it be???


----------



## John-H

Britain's reputation hanging by this thread?


----------



## Shug750S

barry_m2 said:


> My god, you're dragging this one on a bit aren't you!!?
> 
> This is now officially the most boring thread on the forum, with just the 4 of you arguing amongst yourselves. :lol:
> 
> [smiley=argue.gif]


Rain stopped play. Covers coming on.

All players heading for the dressing rooms


----------



## Spandex

Cliff Richard will be here soon...


----------



## Shug750S

Used to be friends with Cliff. Told him a joke and he said "it's not funny"

We don't talk anymore.


----------



## Von Twinzig

Shug750S said:


> Used to be friends with Cliff. Told him a joke and he said "it's not funny"
> 
> We don't talk anymore.


 [smiley=jester.gif] [smiley=smash.gif] :lol: (actually, that did make me chuckle)

Shall we start an oil or mapping thread whilst they call for new balls?

VT


----------



## bobclive22

bobclive22 wrote:

Lord Rose,


> "A win is a win. If we get to 50.001% it is a win. I want to win, but we will win by a substantial margin," he said.
> 
> What no comment on my earlier post Spandex, it appears 0.001% is an acceptable margin for the remain brigade but 3.8% the other way and they spit out their dummies. ...
> 
> Like this?
> 
> Nigel Farrage wrote:
> In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it.
> http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/24/remember- ... m-5963900/


The thing is John, Stuart Rose was* head *of the remain campaign when he made that statement Nigel Farrage did not run the exit campaign therefore they were just his personal comments.


----------



## bobclive22

> 1. There is no acceptable margin for Leave winning. The issues I have with leaving the EU wouldn't suddenly be fixed because more people voted for it. If anything, the more people like you in the world, the sadder I'd be.


75% of people aged 18-24 claimed they voted for Remain in the YouGov survey after voting closed, a figure that falls as age increases.

That means 25% of young voters wanted out and agree with me, if more than 46.5 million people were registered to vote and actually voted and say 6 million were in the 18 to 24 group that suggests the young swung it.


----------



## John-H

bobclive22 said:


> bobclive22 wrote:
> 
> Lord Rose,
> 
> 
> 
> "A win is a win. If we get to 50.001% it is a win. I want to win, but we will win by a substantial margin," he said.
> 
> What no comment on my earlier post Spandex, it appears 0.001% is an acceptable margin for the remain brigade but 3.8% the other way and they spit out their dummies. ...
> 
> Like this?
> 
> Nigel Farrage wrote:
> In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it.
> http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/24/remember- ... m-5963900/
> 
> 
> 
> The thing is John, Stuart Rose was* head *of the remain campaign when he made that statement Nigel Farrage did not run the exit campaign therefore they were just his personal comments.
Click to expand...

No, the thing is you are belittling people on here by accusing them of "spitting their dummies out" by complaining about the close margin etc and because they have an opinion that differs to yours of course. So when it's pointed out that a prominent campaigner on your side of the argument made a pre-emptive complaint about the same issue had the margin been the other way, you try and make out that's allowed because they are only "personal comments" as he's not a leader of the campaign. What kind of illogical nonsense is that? Nobody on here lead a campaign either - this thread is made up of unofficial personal comments :roll:

Anyway, coming back to Sir Cliff, I'm sorry for the Young Ones who stand to have their future spoilt by the illogicality and prejudice of their elders.


----------



## Shug750S

Covers off, and play resumes.

Good serve from Bob there, and only one use of *Bold* font.

Line judge calls it out. second serve coming up...


----------



## rustyintegrale

bobclive22 said:


> Also the rules; what's *the significance* of writing *in bold*? I'm *confused*.
> 
> 
> 
> It`s called *emphasis*, next lesson.
Click to expand...

The man doth run before he can walk.

He's only just learned the function of the 'quote' button and now he's master of the dark arts...


----------



## bobclive22

> No, the thing is you are belittling people on here by accusing them of "spitting their dummies out" by complaining about the close margin etc and because they have an opinion that differs to yours of course. So when it's pointed out that a prominent campaigner on your side of the argument made a pre-emptive complaint about the same issue had the margin been the other way, you try and make out that's allowed because they are only "personal comments" as he's not a leader of the campaign. What kind of illogical nonsense is that? Nobody on here lead a campaign either - this thread is made up of unofficial personal comments :roll:


My comment is mild compared to the vitiol I have received from some posters just because I hold a different view.
Rose made the comment as leader of the official remain group and as only the government in power can initiate another referendum a 0.001% win for the remain side would not have been allowed to be challenged. You know full well that the point being made is that If the remain side had won by that stated margin there would have been NO legal challenge and NO second referendum, the only outcome would probably have been a demand for a recount. We will see what happens if the Scotts demand a second referendum.


----------



## John-H

That's not what Farage suggested.


----------



## bobclive22

> Interesting/depressing:
> 
> http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/07 ... y-s-brexit


Who`s Ian Dunt.


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> Who`s Ian Dunt.


And I thought you didn't like ad hominem responses... Care to comment on the points he made?

Hmmm... Maybe my response should have been, "who's Bobclive22?"


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> 1. There is no acceptable margin for Leave winning. The issues I have with leaving the EU wouldn't suddenly be fixed because more people voted for it. If anything, the more people like you in the world, the sadder I'd be.
> 
> 
> 
> 75% of people aged 18-24 claimed they voted for Remain in the YouGov survey after voting closed, a figure that falls as age increases.
> 
> That means 25% of young voters wanted out and agree with me, if more than 46.5 million people were registered to vote and actually voted and say 6 million were in the 18 to 24 group that suggests the young swung it.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure how that's a response to my comment, but let's roll with it... When you say 'swung it', how are you defining that? Surely every group 'swung it', given the narrow margin?


----------



## Shug750S

An early morning start today, great return to Bob's limp serve.

Love - 15


----------



## bobclive22

> That's not what Farage suggested.
Click to expand...

That is his personal opinion, I stated early in this discussion that if remain had won I personally would have accepted that and moved on.

I reiterate my last statement, Rose said a win is a win no matter what the margin, do you honestly believe if 0.001% had been the winning margin for remain the government would have allowed another referendum because that small margin was considered by some as an indecisive result, I think not. If that result had been the other-way round the government would have insisted on a rerun.


----------



## bobclive22

> I'm not sure how that's a response to my comment, but let's roll with it... When you say 'swung it', how are you defining that? Surely every group 'swung it', given the narrow margin?


You are stating that the older generation have screwed it for the young, I stated that 25% of 6 million 18-24`s (if that`s the number of young voters that actually voted) voted leave, that`s 1.5 million votes, had they gone to remain we would not be having this discussion and you would be a happy man.


----------



## bobclive22

Just came across this Mr Grumpy, I can now see why 75% of them got it wrong.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/educa ... 41166.html


----------



## Shug750S

Good return from Bob there, no *bold* at all, brings it back to 15 all.

Last post 3 attempts in a row, so just outside the line.

15 - 30, awaiting Bob's next serve. Will the *bold* text make a return as he tries to get back in the match?


----------



## John-H

bobclive22 said:


> That's not what Farage suggested.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is his personal opinion, I stated early in this discussion that if remain had won I personally would have accepted that and moved on.
> 
> I reiterate my last statement, Rose said a win is a win no matter what the margin, do you honestly believe if 0.001% had been the winning margin for remain the government would have allowed another referendum because that small margin was considered by some as an indecisive result, I think not. If that result had been the other-way round the government would have insisted on a rerun.
Click to expand...

You are missing the point yet again Bob. You were responding to Spandex and making out that he should not complain over a tight margin and you cited as evidence some comment from remain - official or not - it makes no difference. I'm saying that his opinion is perfectly valid and I gave as example Nigel Farage's prior statement that he wouldn't accept such a narrow margin as final. You then made an excuse that it was his "personal opinion" and I countered that everybody on here is speaking personally.

As you can't win that argument you are now attempting to shift your meaning to be that "they" (only campaign leaders now) would not accept an argument over the margin the other way. That may or may not be the case for their own political reasons but it does and should not stop anyone on here having the right to express an opinion over the result.

I might cite for example that the referendum act allowed campaigners to misrepresent the facts legally (unlike a general election where it is unlawful) - do you think I should be gagged for complaining about the misrepresentation or just because it went your way I should accept this?


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> I'm not sure how that's a response to my comment, but let's roll with it... When you say 'swung it', how are you defining that? Surely every group 'swung it', given the narrow margin?
> 
> 
> 
> You are stating that the older generation have screwed it for the young, I stated that 25% of 6 million 18-24`s (if that`s the number of young voters that actually voted) voted leave, that`s 1.5 million votes, had they gone to remain we would not be having this discussion and you would be a happy man.
Click to expand...

Bob, use your brain. 1.5m votes (let's ignore the bit where you made up a figure to get that) is a small fraction of the Leave vote, so the older generation are *still* massively over-represented in that group. It doesn't matter which way you cut it, 75% of young people wanted to stay in the EU and a large percentage of the older generation didn't.

As for the 'swung it' comment, as I said the margin was small enough that I could claim any demographic group swung it. Bloody blond people swung the vote!! Fair haired Bastards!


----------



## Spandex

Anyway Bob, rather than argue the toss over what people might or might not have done if the vote had been closer, or gone the other way, lets go back to some of the posts you've conveniently ignored:

You complained that immigration was responsible for the growing number of pound shops - I pointed out that pound shops had actually started breeding after the global financial crisis changed shopping habits, and they had in fact struggled (with some shops closing) in the last year or two despite immigration increasing over that period. This suggests that pound shop growth isn't linked to immigration at all and is more dependant on a depressed economy. The amusing conclusion being that leaving the EU could actually increase pound shop growth if the economy suffers. So, how many of your other tenuous links between immigration and [insert bad thing here] could also be baseless?


----------



## bobclive22

> You are missing the point yet again Bob. You were responding to Spandex and making out that he should not complain over a tight margin and you cited as evidence some comment from remain - official or not - it makes no difference. I'm saying that his opinion is perfectly valid and I gave as example Nigel Farage's prior statement that he wouldn't accept such a narrow margin as final. You then made an excuse that it was his "personal opinion" and I countered that everybody on here is speaking personally.
> 
> As you can't win that argument you are now attempting to shift your meaning to be that "they" (only campaign leaders now) would not accept an argument over the margin the other way. That may or may not be the case for their own political reasons but it does and should not stop anyone on here having the right to express an opinion over the result.
> 
> I might cite for example that the referendum act allowed campaigners to misrepresent the facts legally (unlike a general election where it is unlawful) - do you think I should be gagged for complaining about the misrepresentation or just because it went your way I should accept this?


I believe both sides made certain misleading statements,(every household will loose £4,300 with exit) and (slash public spending and increase taxes in an emergency Budget to tackle a £30bn "black hole" if the UK votes to leave the European Union). I think we all know about project fear which cost Osborn his job.The same tactic had been used at the Scottish referendum, it fooled the Scotts but not the Brits.

John, it doesn`t really matter about the comments, the point is the government in power would have accepted any remain win no matter how small and it would not have been possible for the exit side to have another go, perhaps I am wrong if so enlighten me.

Regarding the young, What you have are the 18-24 age group which it appears are poor at spelling, poor at maths and science and have little or no life skills. They have been educated in an era where science is no longer a main subject in the curriculum yet AL Gore`s (An inconvenient truth) as part of environmental studies is. This same group are familiar with apps on their phone but most have no idea what they are, you and others believe that this group just because they are young should be the ones to take the most important decision in a generation, I believe the older generation with more experience and life skills should decide and they did.


----------



## bobclive22

> Bob, use your brain. 1.5m votes (let's ignore the bit where you made up a figure to get that) is a small fraction of the Leave vote, so the older generation are still massively over-represented in that group. It doesn't matter which way you cut it, 75% of young people wanted to stay in the EU and a large percentage of the older generation didn't.
> 
> As for the 'swung it' comment, as I said the margin was small enough that I could claim any demographic group swung it. Bloody blond people swung the vote!! Fair haired Bastards!


Spandex, I have NO idea of the number of 18-24 year old voters, it`s all in percentages, I can`t find a number, it could be 4-5-6-7-8 million, I chose 6 million as it seemed reasonable.

What I said was, if all the young voted remain, remain probably would have it, that`s all.



> the older generation are still massively over-represented in that group.


How would you fix it or should you fix it.

Nicola Woolcock Education Correspondent
Last updated at 12:01AM, January 29 2016

Young people in England are the most illiterate in the developed world and are floundering in maths, according to a global ranking.

Hundreds of millions of pounds is wasted on tuition fees for students who graduate with only a basic grasp of English and maths, an in-depth analysis by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development found. It warned that many were too low-skilled to earn above the threshold to start repaying their loans.


----------



## bobclive22

> Pound shop growth isn't linked to immigration at all and is more dependent on a depressed economy.


Even at the minimum wage in Britain there are very strong financial incentives for Romanians and Bulgarians to migrate to the UK, especially as wages here are topped up by substantial in-work benefits. Take home pay (including benefits) for a single worker is four or five times higher and for families eight or nine times higher than at home,

The opportunity to save money is a major driver of immigration. A 20% saving of a single worker's weekly wage would save £50. On the current exchange rate £50 is worth the equivalent of 250 Romanian New Lei,[5] equivalent of one and a half times the weekly minimum wage (164 Lei) at home.[6]

The financial incentives to migrate to the UK from both Bulgaria and Romania are very strong, much more so than in the case of Poland. Even allowing for the different costs of living, a single Romanian or Bulgarian worker on the minimum wage in the UK would earn four or five times what he or she would earn at home.

You see Spandex, many of these workers are single, they share a room often on different shifts with one aim in mind, send as much money as possible to their families back home. It isn`t difficult to link this to depressed areas like Shirebrook and similar. Mass uncontrolled immigration from eastern European countries has depressed these areas far more than would otherwise have happened, it has forced wages down in many parts of the UK, that was always the focal point of the referendum and that is what won it for exit, all the rest was fluff. If you don`t live in these areas you would not have been effected and like yourself would probably voted remain.


----------



## Shug750S

And Bob goes for another three hits, so 15-40. Game point


----------



## Spandex

Once again you've avoided answering a question, despite actually quoting it above your post.

You keep on telling us why everyone voted Leave (presumably you have decided that everyone had the same motives as you) but that's not really the point. At this stage, I honestly care why. As I've said numerous times (another thing you've conveniently ignored every time) the areas that are suffering now are going to suffer even more when we leave the EU, so it's a dumb reason to leave and not one I'd want to admit to if I was you.

Because 'project fear', as you're still calling it, wasn't about what will happen _straight after_ we vote to leave. It was about what would happen _when we actually leave_ - which hasn't happened yet. I'm a bit worried that you thought we'd dodged that bullet just because we'd made it to 4 weeks without it happening.


----------



## Shug750S

2nd game over...

I'm ducking out out keeping score for a few days, as will be on a business trip to Dubai and then onto Kenya.



bobclive22 said:


> ........it appears my little world is a little bit bigger than yours.


Don't want to be picky but not sure the above quote is true... Already been to East Africa 3 times this year, US twice, Central America and West Africa... But why let the truth get in the way of a good punchline?


----------



## John-H

bobclive22 said:


> You are missing the point yet again Bob. You were responding to Spandex and making out that he should not complain over a tight margin and you cited as evidence some comment from remain - official or not - it makes no difference. I'm saying that his opinion is perfectly valid and I gave as example Nigel Farage's prior statement that he wouldn't accept such a narrow margin as final. You then made an excuse that it was his "personal opinion" and I countered that everybody on here is speaking personally.
> 
> As you can't win that argument you are now attempting to shift your meaning to be that "they" (only campaign leaders now) would not accept an argument over the margin the other way. That may or may not be the case for their own political reasons but it does and should not stop anyone on here having the right to express an opinion over the result.
> 
> I might cite for example that the referendum act allowed campaigners to misrepresent the facts legally (unlike a general election where it is unlawful) - do you think I should be gagged for complaining about the misrepresentation or just because it went your way I should accept this?
> 
> 
> 
> I believe both sides made certain misleading statements,(every household will loose £4,300 with exit) and (slash public spending and increase taxes in an emergency Budget to tackle a £30bn "black hole" if the UK votes to leave the European Union). I think we all know about project fear which cost Osborn his job.The same tactic had been used at the Scottish referendum, it fooled the Scotts but not the Brits.
> 
> John, it doesn`t really matter about the comments, the point is the government in power would have accepted any remain win no matter how small and it would not have been possible for the exit side to have another go, perhaps I am wrong if so enlighten me.
> 
> Regarding the young, What you have are the 18-24 age group which it appears are poor at spelling, poor at maths and science and have little or no life skills. They have been educated in an era where science is no longer a main subject in the curriculum yet AL Gore`s (An inconvenient truth) as part of environmental studies is. This same group are familiar with apps on their phone but most have no idea what they are, you and others believe that this group just because they are young should be the ones to take the most important decision in a generation, I believe the older generation with more experience and life skills should decide and they did.
Click to expand...

If both sides made false claims and not just one side, that hardly makes the referendum result any more reliable. Scots are Brits by the way.

No, the point you made was:



bobclive22 said:


> What no comment on my earlier post Spandex, it appears 0.001% is an acceptable margin for the remain brigade but 3.8% the other way and they spit out their dummies. If you change your profile pic to Mr Happy instead of Mr grumpy you might enjoy life a little more. I suggest you now accept the result and get on with life.


That was your point - not what you are now trying to twist it to. Note the phrase, "they spit out their dummies" and then the audacious suggestion that Spandex (and by inference any other objector) should accept the result as they have no right to object.

I quoted Nigel Farage objecting to the potential of a close vote the other way and you say that's his personal opinion as if that's acceptable. So if his personal opinion is acceptable how come the opinion of others arguing the other way isn't?

And now you try to belittle the opinions of the young.

So Bob is the only person with a valid opinion? Not Bob has a different opinion to others but other groups don't deserve to have opinions - according to Bob.


----------



## bobclive22

> And now you try to belittle the opinions of the young.


Students in crisis over poor maths and English,

A traditional three-year degree course is costly and unsuitable for those who have difficulty with the basics, while having students graduate with low skills in literacy and numeracy "undermines the currency" of the qualification, according to the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development.

Young people in England are the most illiterate in the developed world and are floundering in maths, according to a global ranking.

Hundreds of millions of pounds is wasted on tuition fees for students who graduate with only a basic grasp of English and maths, an in-depth analysis by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development found. It warned that many were too low-skilled to earn above the threshold to start repaying their loans.

John, I didn`t make that statement the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development did, you are happy to accept that this age group with little life skills and experience are qualified enough to be able guide the nations prosperity into to future, you obviously believe knowledge and skills gained over the years count for less, that`s like being relaxed knowing your local taxi driver is flying you and your family off to Spain.


----------



## bobclive22

> the areas that are suffering now are going to suffer even more when we leave the EU,


Time will tell, I believe things will improve, you don`t, we beg to differ.


----------



## Spandex

Bob, are you seriously now trying to attack *all* the young people who voted based on statistics about the literacy levels of *some* young people (with no evidence the two groups intersect)?

You really are like a dog with a bone when you get hold of a story or some stats that you think make your case for you, aren't you? If only you were rigorous enough to do some research and reading of your own before you grab hold of that bone. The stats that you're currently using to 'prove' how useless the younger generation are go a little further than that. What they actually say is that, despite having more qualifications, 16-24 yr olds are no better in the tests than those in the 55-65 age group. So, if you think the young are illiterate, then you must also think those brilliant old people are too :lol: .

Still waiting for your response to my point about pound shops by the way.


----------



## bobclive22

> Bob, are you seriously now trying to attack all the young people who voted based on statistics about the literacy levels of some young people (with no evidence the two groups intersect)?


Spandex I believed the linked article referred to university students, graduate and undergraduate, why do you think Eben Upton designed the Raspberry pi.

I will move on,

The EU must now face reality. That means formally recognising the council as the supreme executive of the union, downgrading the commission so that it becomes, as the Gaullists have long wanted, a secretariat of the council without the power to initiate legislation. That would undermine the arguments of Eurosceptics, who thrive on the anathema of an unelected and unaccountable legislative body, something that Britain found particularly difficult to accept.

According to this article in your favorite broadsheet the EU is at present undemocratic as stated by leave, if it wasn`t the Gaullists wouldn`t want to change it.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ers-listen


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> Spandex I believed the linked article referred to university students, graduate and undergraduate


I don't have access to that article, but the data it's based on hardly refers to *all* students, merely a small percentage of them. Bob's binary brain strikes again. And don't forget, the data didn't say literacy levels in students was worse than older people. They just said that despite having additional qualifications, literacy levels in younger groups were the same as in the older groups.


bobclive22 said:


> why do you think Eben Upton designed the Raspberry pi.


He designed it because computer skills in children were deteriorating globally because they were growing up with computers which were simple to use and didn't require any programming skills to achieve all the things they were being bought for. Not sure how this is relevant, but I guess I'm just amazed that you've even heard of a RasPi. If you tell me you own one I think I'll pass out.


bobclive22 said:


> I will move on,
> 
> The EU must now face reality. That means formally recognising the council as the supreme executive of the union, downgrading the commission so that it becomes, as the Gaullists have long wanted, a secretariat of the council without the power to initiate legislation. That would undermine the arguments of Eurosceptics, who thrive on the anathema of an unelected and unaccountable legislative body, something that Britain found particularly difficult to accept.
> 
> According to this article in your favorite broadsheet the EU is at present undemocratic as stated by leave, if it wasn`t the Gaullists wouldn`t want to change it.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ers-listen


Ok, so you've now worked out that I'm young, I vote Green and my favourite paper is the Guardian? I guess technically, compared to you I'm young (although compared to you most people are young).

Once again though, Bob's binary brain struggles with subtlety and shades of grey. In your mind, someone who votes to remain in the EU must love everything about the EU (and, bizarrely, must also love the idea of everything the EU may do in the future, regardless of what that might be). Well, that might make it easier to compartmentalise in your brain, but that's not how it is for me and I suspect that's not how it is for many other Remain voters either. I completely accept there are things I don't like about the EU. There are things I don't like about our government. There are things I don't like about every political party in the UK. That's why for me, and for most people apart from yourself, voting is a carefully thought out process of weighing up the pros and cons to come to some sort of compromise that serves our country best in the future.

Amazingly though, despite not actually being my favourite broadsheet, that Guardian article pretty much sums up something I've said many times in this thread - namely that if we can negotiate real change in the EU we may be able to justify a second referendum and people may choose to stay in that changed EU. And they'll do it not because the changed EU will be perfect, but because it will be the best compromise.

Still no reply about the pound shops Bob? Come on, it was important enough for you to bang on about it in 2 - 3 posts not long ago, and now you can't discuss it at all??


----------



## John-H

Well the queen must be excited - the country will now be ruled by an unelected woman with a husband named Phillip.

Teresa May said:



> Do you know, If you are born poor you will die on average nine years earlier than others. If you are black you are treated more harshly by the criminal justice system than if you are white. If you are at a state school you are less likely to reach the top professions than if you are educated privately. If you are a woman you will earn less than a man - but I won't go on to list all the achievements of the previous Tory government....


Well not quite but it didn't half sound like her! Dead Ringers - a well recommended listen:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07k0k56#play

:lol:


----------



## bobclive22

> He designed it because computer skills in children were deteriorating globally


NO, He designed it because computer skills in UK children were deteriorating and when entering university they had little or no computer skills, as the study I linked to earlier found that Students are in crisis over poor maths and English it is not surprising.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/education ... 677431.ece

As Clegg promised NO tuition fees then became the prime mover for the introduction of those fee`s, you might have thought those same students now saddled with large student loans might have questioned the motive behind project fear when Clegg became a prominent supporter of same, once bit once twice shy, well that`s how us oldies would see it.


----------



## bobclive22

> Once again though, Bob's binary brain struggles with subtlety and shades of grey. In your mind, someone who votes to remain in the EU must love everything about the EU (and, bizarrely, must also love the idea of everything the EU may do in the future, regardless of what that might be). Well, that might make it easier to compartmentalise in your brain, but that's not how it is for me and I suspect that's not how it is for many other Remain voters either. I completely accept there are things I don't like about the EU. There are things I don't like about our government. There are things I don't like about every political party in the UK. That's why for me, and for most people apart from yourself, voting is a carefully thought out process of weighing up the pros and cons to come to some sort of compromise that serves our country best in the future.
> 
> Amazingly though, despite not actually being my favourite broadsheet, that Guardian article pretty much sums up something I've said many times in this thread - namely that if we can negotiate real change in the EU we may be able to justify a second referendum and people may choose to stay in that changed EU. And they'll do it not because the changed EU will be perfect, but because it will be the best compromise.


Down to name calling again, one thing that should have made you realise the impossibility of any meaningful negotiation with the EU was the result of Cameron`s stab at it. All the EU should be is a trading block, that`s it, no political union and no open borders. If they do that then there is no issue.


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> NO, He designed it because computer skills in UK children were deteriorating and when entering university they had little or no computer skills, as the study I linked to earlier found that Students are in crisis over poor maths and English it is not surprising.
> 
> http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/education ... 677431.ece


The interviews I've seen with him don't specify the nationality of the children he hoped to help - he noticed the issue when working at Cambridge university, which has a huge intake of foreign students as well as UK ones. Specifically, he identifies the issue he wanted to address as being caused by modern computers 'ease of use' (not an education issue) - hardly something that would only impact UK children. Regardless, that is *only* referring to coding skills, not literacy which is why I said it's not relevant to a discussion about literacy. Kids being able to code is an important subject, but hardly an indicator of education levels. Conflating the two issues is so ridiculous that either you're not very smart, or you're clutching at straws and hoping no one will notice. Once again though, the dog has got his bone and won't let go.



bobclive22 said:


> As Clegg promised NO tuition fees then became the prime mover for the introduction of those fee`s, you might have thought those same students now saddled with large student loans might have questioned the motive behind project fear when Clegg became a prominent supporter of same, once bit once twice shy, well that`s how us oldies would see it.


Clegg, as far as I know, has never been a 'prime mover' for the introduction of fees. In every interview I've seen with him where the subject has come up, he's said that he had to give up on it because he couldn't push through every policy he wanted as deputy prime minister to a Tory PM. If you have something that says otherwise I'd be interested to see it. Or is this a case of memory problems from 'you oldies' again? :wink:



bobclive22 said:


> Down to name calling again, one thing that should have made you realise the impossibility of any meaningful negotiation with the EU was the result of Cameron`s stab at it. All the EU should be is a trading block, that`s it, no political union and no open boarders. If they do that then there is no issue.


Don't worry Bob, I have absolutely zero respect for you so if I wanted to call you names I'd just come out and say it. Calling your brain 'binary' is simply a comment on your seeming inability to see arguments as nuanced. You act as though people must either be 100% for something or 100% against it (perhaps that's how things are for you) and don't cope well with discussions where the result is inevitably a compromise.

As for your idea of what would constitute an EU with 'no issue', honestly, who cares what you want? Firstly, you don't speak for all Leave voters and secondly there is half the country who didn't want to leave at all. A compromise that satisfies a large portion of the two groups would be enough to justify a 2nd referendum. If that compromise meant that you and a small percentage of Leave voters still voted leave then so be it.


----------



## bobclive22

> The interviews I've seen with him don't specify the nationality of the children he hoped to help.


I presume students entering UK universities are mainly UK students, as the study cited found that UK students are at the bottom of the pile in English and maths and as the Pi computer was to be given free to UK schools to instill an interest in computing in young children studying in UK schools even an amoeba would be able to figure that Eban Uptons intentions were to instill an interest in computing in those UK schools.



> Don't worry Bob, I have absolutely zero respect for you so if I wanted to call you names I'd just come out and say it. Calling your brain 'binary' is simply a comment on your seeming inability to see arguments as nuanced. You act as though people must either be 100% for something or 100% against it (perhaps that's how things are for you) and don't cope well with discussions where the result is inevitably a compromise.


The only forums where I have observed such nastiness is in the skeptic climate change forums when the true believers post vitriol, the thing is when you visit the true believer forums like Real science you NEVER find similar vitriol posted by the skeptic posters, that`s why I believe you are a true green, it`s a pattern Spandex, you are just a young nasty person that can`t bear to loose, as I have already posted (spitting ones dummy out).



> As for your idea of what would constitute an EU with 'no issue', honestly, who cares what you want? Firstly, you don't speak for all Leave voters and secondly there is half the country who didn't want to leave at all. A compromise that satisfies a large portion of the two groups would be enough to justify a 2nd referendum. If that compromise meant that you and a small percentage of Leave voters still voted leave then so be it.


I spoke for me, just me and what is acceptable to me. If the EU returned absolute sovereignty to the UK and got rid of open borders I for my part would vote remain as that would return the EU to the trading block the UK originally voted for.


----------



## bobclive22

> Clegg, as far as I know, has never been a 'prime mover' for the introduction of fees.


He voted for it, if he had voted against it probably would not have happened, not the prime mover but second in command.

Nick Clegg is talking crap on tuition fees. He wasn't between 'rock and hard place'. I was in the room when he decided to vote for it. He was keen.

Await a comment.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 18326.html

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... fees-clegg


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> I presume students entering UK universities are mainly UK students, as the study cited found that UK students are at the bottom of the pile in English and maths and as the Pi computer was to be given free to UK schools to instill an interest in computing in young children studying in UK schools even an amoeba would be able to figure that Eban Uptons intentions were to instill an interest in computing in those UK schools.


Oh Bob, you got so close then gave up before you finished thinking it through properly. You managed to extrapolate the observations of one university out to the entire country but bizarrely stopped there despite there being no evidence that this was an issue only facing the UK. Again, conflating two separate issues is not helpful.



bobclive22 said:


> The only forums where I have observed such nastiness is in the skeptic climate change forums when the true believers post vitriol, the thing is when you visit the true believer forums like Real science you NEVER find similar vitriol posted by the skeptic posters, that`s why I believe you are a true green, it`s a pattern Spandex, you are just a young nasty person that can`t bear to loose, as I have already posted (spitting ones dummy out).


I think this sums up your grasp of logic - "spandex is rude to me like the Green voters are, therefore spandex must be 'a green'". As I said though, if I was being nasty, you'd know about it. I'm politely telling you I don't respect you, and the reasons for this are spread throughout this thread. Spitting my dummy out? Must be the calmest dummy spitting ever...



bobclive22 said:


> I spoke for me, just me and what is acceptable to me. If the EU returned absolute sovereignty to the UK and got rid of open borders I for my part would vote remain as that would return the EU to the trading block the UK originally voted for.


I doubt that will happen but hopefully a compromise will be made before we ruin this country irreversibly.


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> Nick Clegg is talking crap on tuition fees. He wasn't between 'rock and hard place'.


I actually fell for this and posted a reply, but I've deleted it because it suddenly dawned on me this is ridiculous. Who gives a crap about Clegg?? I don't. Do you? Really?

As far as I can tell the only reason you brought him up was to try to discredit a Remain supporter. Because that's what you do, isn't it? When someone posts a link, you don't address their point, you attack the author.

Still waiting for your response on the pound shops, by the way...


----------



## 3TT3

isnt this thread getting a bit "lets do the time warp again"
There doesnt appear to be any 'remain supporters/vs leave supporters" anymore, done deal ?.

You guys ,unlike us voted n its done, and fair play to you. 
No mrs wishy washy,the "referendum wasnt explained properly to the sheep" bs over there  
Here on the news a UK analyst was being quizzed on the implications of Teresa May being elected PM by an Irish newsreader.
Both were women.. if that has any relevance.

here .. the media and Irish politicians are still clinging to the "maybe they didnt mean it" strategy :lol: 
The Irish newsreader asked the UK analyst, "What implications does the election of Teresa May have for the possibility of a second UK referendum?" there was a bit of a pause and the UK analyst had a bit of a wtf? look on her face, but went on to explain roughly, that there wasnt gonna be any general election before "were gone baby" so no new govt /new referendum.
Its not like the country has imploded/children begging on the streets 

GO team GB! 

Some asides, not that Uk folks would be too worried :
1. Irish water charges were introduced last year or attempted to be introduced, rights or wrongs of it dont matter, and yes I know UK has had water charges for years.
(a) 70% of the td's (MP's) in the last general election here(this year ) were elected on an anti water charges platform.
I mean on a remove the charges platform.
(b)Water charges have been suspended pending a review :lol: , n btw the last govt hoped to have water charges as some kind of off the balance sheet thing. The EU didnt like that idea so water charges had to be a part of the govt balance sheet.
(c) less than 50% of the people paid these charges, its now dropped even lower since the announcement of the suspension.
(d)There is, the govt thought a get out of jail card , eu reg where its stated if water charges are not an "established practice" there is no requirement to apply them
Unfortunately, for us , its more of an , 'If water charges were attempted to be introduced and nobody was paying them or the peasants revolted" the EU can apply sanctions..quite large too by all accounts.
No worries tho parliament holidays are on ,who cares.

2. Leprechan economics 
Our economy grew by 26% last year :lol: , according to the EU accepted measurements.
This of course is total twaddle , and is mainly accounted for by foreign companies "locating" here for the low corp tax rate and their income showing up on the country's balance sheet.
We do get some of the dosh but not that amount 
Well who cares..the Irish get a few Bob an gl to em..
(a) Unfortunately cos were now a "powerhouse european economy" by accepted EU measurement statistics.
we now have to pay an extra 280 million a year to the EU.
Uk readers such as twottington burbage would look at that n say.hah I pass 280 million a week in nhs wastage 
(b)Our economies are slightly different.differentiate it into actual economy size and gdp.. the variance would be a huge proportion. Simplify it right down tho to population size.. best case scenario.
:> we now have to pay 3900 million approx extra pa to the EU..or at least if the UK economy appeared to grow on paper by 26% in a year and you averaged that to the UK population that would be the UK to EU payment.

3. Cow gas
Today we in Ireland have been told, that to meet EU emission targets by 2030 we must reduce our emissions by 30% between now and then.
Were a "green" country.The emerald isle for tourists n all that stuff, lets farm the wind etc etc.
The bad news is over 50% of our "naughty emissions" come from animals, mainly cows and their poop.
There are more cows in Ireland than people.
EU has recently removed the quota.. a system whereby there is a limit to the number of cows per acre in essence.
(a) What it comes down to is, we can all cycle to work, sing kum by ya and build any no of windfarms but cos of eu policy to increase the no of animals per acre for more dosh the major emissions polluter here is gonna increase.
(b) what happens if we dont meet the targets, and were already 20% behind where were supposed to be, were still gonna get sanctions even if nissan leafs become mandatory.
Gas nappies for cows I say!

The ready brek kids living near windscale who glowed in the dark doesnt seem so bad now,at least they didnt have measureable emissions


----------



## John-H

> *Obiter dicta:* With one archaic Latin expression, Boris Johnson on Tuesday dismissed his three decades' worth of exaggeration and occasional insult, insisting he was fit to represent Britain.
> 
> In his maiden news conference as foreign secretary on Tuesday, Johnson listened to a recitation of his past remarks and said, _"I'm afraid there is such a rich thesaurus now of things that I've said one way or another through what alchemy I do not know, somehow misconstrued that it would really take me too long to engage in any full-blown itinerary of apology to all concerned."_
> 
> Johnson accused the U.S. leader of harboring a part-Kenyan's _"ancestral dislike of the British empire." _He had previously compared Hillary Clinton, a potential successor to Obama, to Lady Macbeth and described her as someone with _"dyed blonde hair and pouty lips, and a steely blue stare, like a sadistic nurse in a mental hospital."_
> 
> Reading closely from his script, Johnson toned down his typical off-the-cuff candor in a joint news conference with Secretary of State John Kerry he said the focus ought to be on pressing global crises like Syria and Yemen's civil war: _"Those to my mind are far more important than any obiter dicta that you may disinter from 30 years of journalism."_ Obiter dicta is a Latin legal term for incidental remarks.
> 
> Johnson twice referred to the _"crisis in Egypt," _when he meant Turkey, which is recovering from a coup attempt last Friday.
> 
> _"This man is a very smart and capable man," _Kerry said he learned from a U.S. ambassador in Brussels, a onetime schoolmate of Johnson's at Oxford University. _"I can live with that," _Johnson quipped. As Kerry continued, Johnson interjected to laughter: _"You can stop there."_
> 
> Getting the last word, Kerry left his podium to stand elbow to elbow with Johnson and leaning over, stage-whispered, _*"It's called diplomacy, Boris."*_
> 
> (highlights from: http://www.mail.com/int/news/uk/4488894 ... age-set4-5)


----------



## John-H

PMI - "the first significant set of data measuring business reaction to the result of the UK referendum".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36864273

So, out of FTSE 100 market jitters and into what UK businesses really think based on their actual situation - probably more in line with the FTSE 250 which is more UK based than the 100.

The longer yet to be seen tend is of course more based on the level of investment in the UK - and of course nothing has actually happened yet as no decision has yet been taken on leaving the EU.


----------



## John-H

What a load of dingo's kidney...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-u ... u-36866170


----------



## Spandex

Long but interesting. Kind of explains my point that the most deprived areas of the country will be the ones that suffer the most if we were to completely leave the common market:

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v38/n15/john-lanch ... exit-blues

Also interesting:



> The evidence on immigration is clear: EU immigrants are net contributors to the UK's finances, and are less likely to claim benefits than the native British. The average immigrant is younger, better educated and healthier than the average British citizen. In other words, for every immigrant we let in, the country is richer, more able to pay for its health, education and welfare needs, and less dependent on benefits. They are exactly the demographic the UK needs. As for the much touted Australian 'points system', we have nothing to learn from it: immigrants to the UK are better educated and more skilled than immigrants to Australia. In addition, most of the people who appear as immigrants in the migration statistics are students, because the Home Office chooses to count students who come for the duration of degree courses as migrants.


----------



## John-H

> Plans to allow the United Kingdom an exemption from EU rules on freedom of movement for up to seven years while retaining access to the single market are being considered in European capitals as part of a potential deal on Brexit.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... even-years


----------



## ZephyR2

Just been reading that John. Perhaps one can have their cake and eat it after all.


----------



## ZephyR2

A point to bear in mind in all of this is that we have never regarded ourselves as truly European like those on mainland Europe. Probably because we are an island and don't share common boundaries like the rest (which inevitably leads to shared cultures, understandings, trade etc) or maybe because we are a stubborn lot. 
Let's face it we have always avoided full integration- we've kept the pound, our road signs are stil in miles, although we buy petrol by the litre we still talk about miles per gallon. We buy our beer in pints and give our weight in stones and pounds and out height in feet and inches. 
On top of that we still retain close links and affection with the former colonies of the old empire. 
After all these years of being in the EU we are still British at heart and I reckon that's what drove many when they voted to leave.


----------



## John-H

An expensive cake (£350M) but essential eating for market access. I don't know if it includes our current rebate. We lose our future say in setting EU policy. It's only in discussion and the seven year time frame is interesting - that's where the long grass grows.

I wonder if EU discussions have already included temporary handbrake possibilities for other countries too in mitigation of the migrant crisis.

43 years of legislative harmonisation means we fit most closely to the EU and emphasises the amount of work needed to actually re-write it all. Easier to say it mostly still applies.

Seven years gives time to work on other possibilities either to find alternatives or to demonstrate the difficulty.

As regards our system of measures; is that an indication of what makes us feel British? It's certainly a noticeable difference but the USA use it more than us and feel American. I'd expect other EU countries feel different to each other despite sharing the metric system. Personally, I use millimetres for little things and feet for people's height although more recently metres for lengths of wood and pipes etc. Stone for people's weight but kilos, grams and litres for food but I do like a pint however


----------



## rustyintegrale

John-H said:


> Personally, I use millimetres for little things and feet for people's height although more recently metres for lengths of wood and pipes etc. Stone for people's weight but kilos, grams and litres for food but I do like a pint however


I'm much the same. I much prefer the metric system for measurements - especially when it comes to tiny things. I never buy petrol in litres or gallons but simply pounds (sterling pounds).

I use kilos for personal weight but then whatever weight things are priced in to buy stuff.

But a pint is a pint is a pint and always in a straight glass...


----------



## John-H

Oh yes, straight glass [smiley=cheers.gif]


----------



## ZephyR2

Does or did any country on mainland Europe have their own different units of measurement, within living memory?


----------



## John-H

I remember there was the cubit from Egypt. I think it was the French revolution that marked the change to metrication and standardisation. Prior to that it was localised to the length of a king's foot or stride etc.

Apparently there was the Alen from Scandinavia :lol: Lots of odd ones here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... easurement


----------



## ZephyR2

Gonna bring back the groat and the bushel when Brexit is done


----------



## Trouble4

Yes. women believed this is 6 inches........

a mythical number by LH Whan, on Flickr[/url]


----------



## John-H

Don't forget a "carucate" was the amount of land tillable by a team of eight oxen in a ploughing season. This was equal to 8 "oxgangs" or 4 "virgates". The "virgate", "yardland", or "yard of land" (Latin: virgāta [terrae]) was an English unit of land. Primarily a measure of tax assessment rather than area, the "virgate" was usually (but not always) reckoned as ¼ "hide" and notionally (but seldom exactly) equal to 30 acres. I hope that clears things up.


----------



## ZephyR2

John-H said:


> Don't forget a "carucate" was the amount of land tillable by a team of eight oxen in a ploughing season. This was equal to 8 "oxgangs" or 4 "virgates". The "virgate", "yardland", or "yard of land" (Latin: virgāta [terrae]) was an English unit of land. Primarily a measure of tax assessment rather than area, the "virgate" was usually (but not always) reckoned as ¼ "hide" and notionally (but seldom exactly) equal to 30 acres. I hope that clears things up.


Thanks for reminding me John. I'm always forgetting the proper name for 8 oxgangs. :roll: And when I say 4 virgins I just get blank looks.


----------



## A3DFU

The extent to which the country's students were against Brexit in the EU referendum has been revealed in startling new analysis which has shown that, for every one who voted Leave, almost six voted Remain.
Overall, 85 per cent of students who voted in the referendum chose Remain.

http://www.independent.co.uk/student/ne ... 54626.html


----------



## Spaceman10

Well it's a good job the rest of us voted out and we won


----------



## mighTy Tee

Spaceman10 said:


> Well it's a good job the rest of us voted out and we won


 [smiley=thumbsup.gif] [smiley=thumbsup.gif] [smiley=thumbsup.gif]


----------



## John-H

Young people today show far more maturity than you both suggest.



> "I have lost the right and opportunity to work or live in 27 different countries..."





> "Because I now feel really uncertain about my future, I feel like we no longer have a really positive connection with the EU, and so England feels so much more like an island than it did before."


Two quotes from positive and outward looking students facing the prospect of being held back by the older generation.

Had 16 and 17 year olds been allowed to vote as in the Scottish referendum then the result would have been entirely different.

http://www.independent.co.uk/student/ne ... 01821.html



> "The fact that 16 and 17-year-olds - about a million and a half people - were shut out of this decision is an absolute disgrace. NUS polls have shown around 75 per cent of them would have voted if given the chance - and it's easy to see why. They're going to have to live with the consequences of this decision for about 70 years, and it'll affect every area of their lives from education, to jobs, to travel, to peace, and politics."
> 
> "this can't happen again,"
> 
> "The next time there's an opportunity to shape the future of our country, all young people must be at the heart of it."
> 
> Ebbi Ferguson, National Union of Students (NUS) Wales deputy president,


----------



## mighTy Tee

As far as I am aware, nobody has lost the right to work in the 27 countries of the EU, if they are the right person for the right job then they will still be able to work in pretty much any country they wish (the only exception I can think of is North Korea - and even then, if you are a renegade nuclear expert they would probably welcome you  ).

4 weeks on and the world is still revolving, the £ is still stronger against the Euro than it was circa 4 years ago and many of the doom and gloom merchants (especially the financial sector) are back tracking on their comments and looking forward to a future outside the bureaucracy and controls of the EU, but still a member of the wider international communities including Europe (the EU is not Europe).

Finally I have just spent a week travelling within Europe, where the word Brexit came up many times (we were avoiding the subject) when talking to locals. Whilst opinions varied (as you would expect), I got the impression the French, Belgian and Dutch people are generally as dissatisfied with the EU as we are and would like to pull back from the "political union" of effectively a "United States of Europe".


----------



## bobclive22

> Young people today show far more maturity than you both suggest.


They still don`t have the knowledge or the life skills to have the deciding vote.

Perhaps it was the 2.5 million E-Cigarette smokers that swung it. :lol: :lol:

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/02 ... proposals/


----------



## bobclive22

> Long but interesting. Kind of explains my point that the most deprived areas of the country will be the ones that suffer the most if we were to completely leave the common market:
> 
> http://www.lrb.co.uk/v38/n15/john-lanch ... exit-blues
> 
> Also interesting:
> 
> The evidence on immigration is clear: EU immigrants are net contributors to the UK's finances, and are less likely to claim benefits than the native British. The average immigrant is younger, better educated and healthier than the average British citizen. In other words, for every immigrant we let in, the country is richer, more able to pay for its health, education and welfare needs, and less dependent on benefits. They are exactly the demographic the UK needs. As for the much touted Australian 'points system', we have nothing to learn from it: immigrants to the UK are better educated and more skilled than immigrants to Australia. In addition, most of the people who appear as immigrants in the migration statistics are students, because the Home Office chooses to count students who come for the duration of degree courses as migrants.


This is from the real world Spandex,

https://medium.com/@oliverhumpage/i-wan ... .ewqp399r6


----------



## John-H

mighTy Tee said:


> As far as I am aware, nobody has lost the right to work in the 27 countries of the EU, if they are the right person for the right job then they will still be able to work in pretty much any country they wish (the only exception I can think of is North Korea - and even then, if you are a renegade nuclear expert they would probably welcome you  ).
> 
> 4 weeks on and the world is still revolving, the £ is still stronger against the Euro than it was circa 4 years ago and many of the doom and gloom merchants (especially the financial sector) are back tracking on their comments and looking forward to a future outside the bureaucracy and controls of the EU, but still a member of the wider international communities including Europe (the EU is not Europe).
> 
> Finally I have just spent a week travelling within Europe, where the word Brexit came up many times (we were avoiding the subject) when talking to locals. Whilst opinions varied (as you would expect), I got the impression the French, Belgian and Dutch people are generally as dissatisfied with the EU as we are and would like to pull back from the "political union" of effectively a "United States of Europe".


You are conflating two scenarios. The student was talking about the potential decision of the UK government to leave the EU which of course has not been taken.

Given that nothing has happened yet, it seems strange to conclude so soon that leaving the EU is shown already not to have the negative effects many have predicted.

As for what Bob said.... Are there any other groups you think shouldn't have the vote Bob?


----------



## cheechy

The reason the financial sector is talking up Brexit is that they have no choice.

The decision has been made and they need to make the best of it - negative rhetoric now would have even more of an impact on their business.

The key really is around the deal we get on the financial passport to the EU. It'll be a major blow to the sector if that can't be worked through and tbh I believe thats the reason we may end up with Brexit light...we move out of the decision making and laws that don't influence trade BUT we need to accept free movement and trade.

That might also tie in with the break to make it an easier sell.

Trying to be as positive as I can tbh but if we can't work this out then the hit on the economy if we don't get that deal will be huge. Just now we are just dealing with the shock of brexit and companies / organisations deciding they can't invest due to the amount off uncertainty...that has to be dealt with asap but it can't until we know whats been agreed.

Therefore I guess we are in for quite a few years of low growth / recession. We're past project fear now this is reality. Uncertainty kills investment.


----------



## Trouble4

what does this mean exactly or somewhat ??

https://www.linkedin.com/groups/82857/82857-6162585068146610180


----------



## John-H

Can't read it I'm afraid.


----------



## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> This is from the real world Spandex,
> 
> https://medium.com/@oliverhumpage/i-wan ... .ewqp399r6


That entire argument is beyond moronic. I can see why you like it.


----------



## Trouble4

John-H said:


> Can't read it I'm afraid.


Addendum to "Prelude to BREXIT: Aston-Martin Becomes First British Firm Acquired Via Shariah (Islamic) Banking Law Protocols"
"In order to initiate our end of the strategy, I approached long time friend and elder statesman Thomas H. Miner and requested he have the Egyptian born personal aide of King Abdullah's grandson - he is significantly involved in Saudi Arabia economic development and we interacted with him on an airport project 3 years later - assigned by the Prince to work with me in reaching out to Dubai and other ME-based banks for monetization of the bond, emphasizing the Shariah compliant nature of same. The response from at least 2 banks was immediate from senior officers - one of whom held a previous position with Rothschild - after the message was left that I was calling at the suggestion of the Prince, and they were welcome to call his aide to confirm. Additionally, I had Mr. Miner convey a message to the Prince and the King a request that the Kingdom consider stepping in as an alternate acquirer of ALM should our efforts with the consortium fail." - Myron D. Stokes, Automotive/Aerospace AnalystShow less

Prelude to BREXIT: 2005 Analysis - "National Security, Economic/Industrial Base Ramifications of Possible Renault/Nissan/Ford and GM/Toyota Meldings" preview image	
Prelude to BREXIT: 2005 Analysis - "National Security, Economic/Industrial Base Ramifications of Possible Renault/Nissan/Ford and GM/Toyota Meldings"
"When the last British owned car manufacturing company, MG Rover (Lotus and Morgan being trade intensive, not manufacturing, shops)


----------



## Spandex

In 2007 a large part of Aston Martin was bought by a 'sharia compliant' Kuwaiti company called Investment Dar. As far as I can tell 'sharia compliant' and 'Islamic finance' are simply terms which mean that the language of the agreements also complies with Islamic laws. For example, debt is not allowed under sharia law (I think - any Muslims want to clarify?) so this is redefined as 'investment', and interest payments are redefined as 'profits'.

Basically the local law still applies in its entirety, but the investment company structure and the language of any contracts they sign is designed so that it also aligns with Islamic laws.

It has no bearing on the laws here and any disagreements would still have to be resolved by uk law alone.


----------



## Spandex

The pro-leave press is desperate to publish stories about how other countries are keen to do deals with us now, but they don't like to analyse how vulnerable we'll be when negotiating with our backs against the wall because we have to rush through deals in order to minimise the impact of brexit. There is a very real risk that we'll have to accept some very damaging terms in order to get deals in place in a hurry - being desperate to sell never works in the sellers best interest. Articles like this should really worry us all:

http://arstechnica.co.uk/tech-policy/20 ... rade-deal/


----------



## Trouble4

Spandex said:


> In 2007 a large part of Aston Martin was bought by a 'sharia compliant' Kuwaiti company called Investment Dar. As far as I can tell 'sharia compliant' and 'Islamic finance' are simply terms which mean that the language of the agreements also complies with Islamic laws. For example, debt is not allowed under sharia law (I think - any Muslims want to clarify?) so this is redefined as 'investment', and interest payments are redefined as 'profits'.
> 
> Basically the local law still applies in its entirety, but the investment company structure and the language of any contracts they sign is designed so that it also aligns with Islamic laws.
> 
> It has no bearing on the laws here and any disagreements would still have to be resolved by uk law alone.


Thanks...........


----------



## mighTy Tee

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36901027

More good news for the UK economy post Brexit.


----------



## John-H

mighTy Tee said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36901027
> 
> More good news for the UK economy post Brexit.


It's mainly an export business on high production profit margins and the falling pound makes that more attractive. Also helped no doubt by the treasury signaling tax incentives to try and offset the decline in business confidence and investment post referendum - despite no UK decision to leave the EU actually having been taken.

The firm said prior to the referendum that leaving would be a mistake as the loss of free movement of people will make it more difficult to recruit its workforce. Nothing has actually happened yet of course regarding this and may not - so the company took a balanced decision in it's own interest - hardly surprising.

The overall situation is certainly not good news for the UK economy however. A falling pound makes imports more expensive and reduced government tax revenue will put pressure on public spending e.g. NHS. Oh but of course we'll be getting £350M to cover that :roll:

Oh I'm forgetting nothing has happened yet so we won't (wouldn't anyway!) yet we seem to be having to take desperate measures all the same just to deal with the confidence and uncertainty - even though no decision has been taken.

We are already seeing the UK not being included in academic and research projects. The government have said there is nothing they can do about that as if other EU member state bodies think the UK won't be around for much longer they just won't include us in collaborative projects. That doesn't look great for the UK economy long term either.


----------



## John-H

Oh dear. . .



> Workers in the UK have suffered the biggest fall in wages among the world's richest countries since the financial crisis, research has suggested.
> 
> Between 2007 and 2015 wages in the UK fell by 10.4%, a drop equalled only by Greece, the analysis by the TUC found.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36903032


I remember the financial crisis. It was worldwide but the Tories blamed Labour and Labour lost the election and then we had austerity and everyone has had to tighten purse strings to balance the home economics budget logic and we've had years of pay rises below inflation and gotten so used to it we've forgotten how once it was different and we could expect better opportunities and dare I suggest it - a career progression.

Many have felt the pressure to make ends meet and then Brexit came along but with years of newspaper nonsense ridiculing the EU often as a convenient scapegoat for domestic policy failings or for plain popular mockery and with pent up pressure and resentment against the pro EU privileged establishment - who then gets the blame and the bloody nose?

With the economy heading for a post Brexit recession are we, as a country, not the masters of or own demise?


----------



## Spandex

And who suffers most in a recession (particularly with a government that sees austerity as the only way out)? Yep, the low paid turkeys who voted to move Christmas forward this year...


----------



## A3DFU

mighTy Tee said:


> post Brexit.


More correctly: post Brexit referendum.

The UK is still in the EU and will be for a while so talking "post" Brexit is incorrect at this point in time. We will only know what leaving the EU will be like two year after article 50 of the Lisbon treaty has been triggered.


----------



## mighTy Tee

John-H said:


> Oh dear. . .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Workers in the UK have suffered the biggest fall in wages among the world's richest countries since the financial crisis, research has suggested.
> 
> Between 2007 and 2015 wages in the UK fell by 10.4%, a drop equalled only by Greece, the analysis by the TUC found.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36903032
> 
> 
> 
> I remember the financial crisis. It was worldwide but the Tories blamed Labour and Labour lost the election and then we had austerity and everyone has had to tighten purse strings to balance the home economics budget logic and we've had years of pay rises below inflation and gotten so used to it we've forgotten how once it was different and we could expect better opportunities and dare I suggest it - a career progression.
> 
> Many have felt the pressure to make ends meet and then Brexit came along but with years of newspaper nonsense ridiculing the EU often as a convenient scapegoat for domestic policy failings or for plain popular mockery and with pent up pressure and resentment against the pro EU privileged establishment - who then gets the blame and the bloody nose?
> 
> With the economy heading for a post Brexit recession are we, as a country, not the masters of or own demise?
Click to expand...

Or maybe EU grants and loans moving BRITISH JOBS to countries both inside and outside of the EU where wages are lower has put a downward pressure on UK pay?


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## Spandex

mighTy Tee said:


> Or maybe EU grants and loans moving BRITISH JOBS to countries both inside and outside of the EU where wages are lower has put a downward pressure on UK pay?


Apart from the Ford factory in Turkey (which already handled most of the Transit production before it got the loan so the UK factory was going to close either way), name one other company that moved UK jobs abroad using EU money?

And those pesky EU loans also created thousands of jobs in the UK. Dont worry though, we'll lose loads of jobs again once we leave and the economy tanks, so it'll balance out nicely. Meanwhile the EU will carry on making loans and giving grants, none of which will benefit us anymore. We can trust the UK government to make sure that delicious EU money is fairly distributed to make up for it though, right? :lol: :lol:


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## John-H

Yes, the £350M (or was it £136M per week? see here) is to be split so many ways - it's like someone saying: "It's my round - half a mild please and five straws!" :lol:


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## rustyintegrale

John-H said:


> Yes, the £350M (or was it £136M per week? see here) is to be split so many ways - it's like someone saying: "It's my round - half a mild please and five straws!" :lol:


And just to ram the point home, serve it in a pint glass - with a lemonade top.


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## A3DFU

UK consumer confidence sees sharpest fall in 26 years after Brexit vote:
Consumer confidence in the UK took its biggest plunge in more than a quarter of a century in the wake of the vote to leave the European Union, a fresh survey has revealed. GfK's consumer confidence index fell to -12 in July from -1 last month - the sharpest drop in the index since March 1990.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/uk-consumer-co ... te-1573136


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## bobclive22

> UK consumer confidence sees sharpest fall in 26 years after Brexit vote:
> Consumer confidence in the UK took its biggest plunge in more than a quarter of a century in the wake of the vote to leave the European Union, a fresh survey has revealed. GfK's consumer confidence index fell to -12 in July from -1 last month - the sharpest drop in the index since March 1990.


I wonder where they did the survey, I am intent in purchasing a small 2 bed property, looked at 2 yesterday, missed the first one, already had an offer.

My Granddaughter and my sister in law have recently (last 2 weeks) purchased new cars, doesn`t seem to be lack of consumer confidence where I live in the east Midlands.

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for ... tion=false


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## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> I wonder where they did the survey, I am intent in purchasing a small 2 bed property, looked at 2 yesterday, missed the first one, already had an offer.
> 
> My Granddaughter and my sister in law have recently (last 2 weeks) purchased new cars, doesn`t seem to be lack of consumer confidence where I live in the east Midlands.
> 
> http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for ... tion=false


So on one hand we have an annual survey of 2000 people across the UK, carried out by a well known market research company, and on the other we have Bob, his granddaughter and his sister in law. Which to believe... Which to believe...

[smiley=gossip.gif]


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## bobclive22

> So on one hand we have an annual survey of 2000 people across the UK, carried out by a well known market research company, and on the other we have Bob, his granddaughter and his sister in law. Which to believe... Which to believe...


Give it a rest, try to look on the bright side life.

:-* :-* :-* :-*


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## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> Give it a rest, try to look on the bright side life.


There's a bright side?? Do tell...


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## Shug750S

bobclive22 said:


> UK consumer confidence sees sharpest fall in 26 years after Brexit vote:
> Consumer confidence in the UK took its biggest plunge in more than a quarter of a century in the wake of the vote to leave the European Union, a fresh survey has revealed. GfK's consumer confidence index fell to -12 in July from -1 last month - the sharpest drop in the index since March 1990.
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder where they did the survey, I am intent in purchasing a small 2 bed property, looked at 2 yesterday, missed the first one, already had an offer.
> 
> My Granddaughter and my sister in law have recently (last 2 weeks) purchased new cars, doesn`t seem to be lack of consumer confidence where I live in the east Midlands.
> 
> http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for ... tion=false
Click to expand...

A house for £125k.....

Wish it was like that for my kids. Both in decent jobs and I'm gifting them a serious sum just to help them get the deposit together. Nothing in my area for anything less than £220k and that's a studio flat. Houses start at £350k.

That explains why you have so many properties Bob.. Couldn't work it out from your earlier posts.


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## bobclive22

> A house for £125k.....
> 
> Wish it was like that for my kids. Both in decent jobs and I'm gifting them a serious sum just to help them get the deposit together. Nothing in my area for anything less than £220k and that's a studio flat. Houses start at £350k.
> 
> That explains why you have so many properties Bob.. Couldn't work it out from your earlier posts.


It`s call affordable housing, the dwelling I posted was 15 minutes from where I live, there are new ones even closer at £600,000 plus, and others at well over a million so there is a mix in the area, as there should be.


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## bobclive22

> The pro-leave press is desperate to publish stories about how other countries are keen to do deals with us now, but they don't like to analyse how vulnerable we'll be when negotiating with our backs against the wall because we have to rush through deals in order to minimise the impact of brexit. There is a very real risk that we'll have to accept some very damaging terms in order to get deals in place in a hurry - being desperate to sell never works in the sellers best interest. Articles like this should really worry us all:


Life`s a worry Spandex.


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## Spandex

bobclive22 said:


> Life`s a worry Spandex.


Ignorance is bliss, eh? :wink:


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## Shug750S

bobclive22 said:


> A house for £125k.....
> 
> Wish it was like that for my kids. Both in decent jobs and I'm gifting them a serious sum just to help them get the deposit together. Nothing in my area for anything less than £220k and that's a studio flat. Houses start at £350k.
> 
> That explains why you have so many properties Bob.. Couldn't work it out from your earlier posts.
> 
> 
> 
> It`s call affordable housing, the dwelling I posted was 15 minutes from where I live, there are new ones even closer at £600,000 plus, and others at well over a million so there is a mix in the area, as there should be.
Click to expand...

Lucky them.

My daughter and her boyfriend are both secondary school teachers and struggling to find anywhere they can get a mortgage on without parents assistance. Nothing like that anywhere for miles round here. Even ex council flats on not so good estates are £225k.


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## bobclive22

Shug,



> Lucky them.
> 
> My daughter and her boyfriend are both secondary school teachers and struggling to find anywhere they can get a mortgage on without parents assistance. Nothing like that anywhere for miles round here. Even ex council flats on not so good estates are £225k.


Fortunately or unfortunately depends on how you look at it, you appear to live within the M25 or close to it and properties are always going to be high commensurate with teachers salaries even allowing for London or fringe pay scales, there are beautiful areas north of the M25 where house prices are far more affordable, because of this living standards are also higher. It`s all about were you want to live, being teachers your daughter and her boyfriend can work anywhere in the country they choose.


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## Danny1

Yeah, real bloody hardship looking at houses £300k+............ wake up to the real world average family houses in England!

There is a difference between not being able to afford whatever ridiculous luxury you want as opposed to not being able to afford a property to live in. Plenty of houses out there cheap, its just down to where you "want" to live.


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## Shug750S

Danny1 said:


> Yeah, real bloody hardship looking at houses £300k+............ wake up to the real world average family houses in England!
> 
> There is a difference between not being able to afford whatever ridiculous luxury you want as opposed to not being able to afford a property to live in. Plenty of houses out there cheap, its just down to where you "want" to live.


But don't kids in the South East need teachers?

They can't afford the houses or flats down here without serious help from parents.

No need to extract the urine mate. Apols if I misread your reply, but not everyone down here earns tons.


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