# Payment protection fees



## mullum (Sep 16, 2011)

PayPal buyer protection fees and who is responsible for them...

Admin say they're the sellers responsibility - regardless of whether or not the "initial contract" solicited payment via PayPal or not.
I believe they're the buyers responsibility IF they send such a payment unsolicited* and without prior agreement.

Admin are insisting that where this issue has occurred - "the seller" should :

A. Apologise to buyers (where the buyer protection fee was added on top)
B. Refund that fee

Otherwise = marketplace ban

As I've never personally added the fee (on top, in advance) I'm exempt from A. & B. 

But what they're saying is that even if the *buyer* adds the fee on top of the price *themselves* (so the seller gets the full agreed sale price) - the seller still has to refund the fee!

But my argument is that :

Where the buyer chose the payment method all by themselves
And
The seller did not specify or agree in advance to any form of PayPal payment
And
The buyer sends an unsolicited* PayPal "goods" payment (fees deducted - thereby underpaying).

*a price was given but no payment method specified

Because the seller requests the underpayment to be settled (original balance paid IN FULL) ....

The seller should be exempt from points A. & B.

Points to consider :
The seller did not invoice the buyer via PayPal. The seller did not mention paypal in any message arranging a contract of sale.
The seller, seeing that a PayPal payment has been sent - sends the goods. Afterwards realises the payment does not fully cover the sale price (fees deducted) - cannot now safely refund the original payment as goods have already been received by the buyer.
*Buyer agrees to pay the balance, does so, but then complains to admin.*

Admin accept that :
No request for a "gift" was made : *no rule broken by seller*
No "gift" payment was made : *no PayPal t&cs broken by seller or buyer*

Despite the evidence (ttf messages) and facts (agreed by buyer & seller) - admin "feel" as though the seller had no right to ask for a second payment. But my argument is - that because the seller did not request or agree to any form of PayPal payment, the fees incurred by the buyer choosing that method themselves - are not the responsibility of the seller. Arguably, the seller SHOULD have refunded the unsolicited payment (and agreed specific terms before requesting payment again), but as the goods had already been sent - the seller is within their rights to request the deficit be paid.

*I reckon the fees are only the sellers responsibility IF they request and/or agree in advance to that payment method.* 
(This has nothing to do with gift payments, which is a separate issue).

Discuss ...

Should admin be involved at all?


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## NickG (Aug 15, 2013)

This is getting out of hand and quite frankly confusing (and the responsibility does not lay with one person in particular!).

What happened to good old common sense, this seems like an Americanized attitude of "Where there's blame there's a claim!".


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## mullum (Sep 16, 2011)

Sometime people have ulterior motives. So, essentially, complaining is used to cause someone harm - rather than remedy a wrong.
I appreciate that the ins and outs of the *theoretical* case above are complicated - perhaps I could've explained it in a simpler way. Nobody seems interested though, so perhaps it's just as well I didn't waste the time simplifying it :lol:


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

I don't really understand how someone could send an unsolicited paypal payment. Where would they get the PayPal address from?


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## anthony_839 (Apr 9, 2013)

if you sell something (and you own a shop) and use a card machine to take payment you have to pay a fee for this....
paypal make sellers pay the fee as this is their way of making money.... you are paying pay pal for their service.

so it is your responsibility!

if you go in to a shop and buy a laptop for 300 quid and use your credit card the shop pays about 3% in fees

then after you have it the shop says we had to pay a fee because you used a card you need to send me more money

you will say do one! then they get the police involved the police say to the shop you should have done this at time of sale and nothing you can do about it (which is actually the stance they will take)

so I say its down to you and oh well you have lost out on 3%


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## mullum (Sep 16, 2011)

Spandex said:


> I don't really understand how someone could send an unsolicited paypal payment. Where would they get the PayPal address from?


Point is that the METHOD wasn't solicited. A price was agreed but no payment method was mentioned nor agreed. So the buyer just sent the payment as he had the sellers email address. The existence of an email address doesn't equal a PayPal account.


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## mullum (Sep 16, 2011)

anthony_839 said:


> so I say its down to *the buyer* and oh well you have lost out on 3%


Arguably, by sending the goods the seller was accepting the payment method as being valid. Realising later that the payment was not for the full amount, is unfortunate, but ultimately - too late.

Oh well that'll teach the seller not to send out any items until they're sure the payment is full.

I think that's where the crux lies.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

mullum said:


> Spandex said:
> 
> 
> > I don't really understand how someone could send an unsolicited paypal payment. Where would they get the PayPal address from?
> ...


No, exactly. That's why I didn't understand how you'd get an unsolicited paypal payment. I'd never just assume the correspondence email address was also the paypal address. I use a completely separate email for paypal for security reasons.


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## mwad (Oct 11, 2013)

Sorry for being thick but I'm confused


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