# Redstuff Ceramic not suitable for track use !!!



## NormStrm (Sep 6, 2003)

Wanted to let you all know that contrary to what has been used on distributors web sites (see quotes below), I ended up with a cooked set of pads  To be honest I assumed it would have been a case of a faulty batch or similar but having been in contact with EBC UK I got the following reply:- 


> We at EBC do not recommend either Redstuff or Greenstuff for trackdays


Just want to make everyone aware as I don't feel I drove on the track more than "fast road" and then only half a dozen laps or so at a time allowing cooling down between sessions. Perhaps I did 

I post this for info only - I have replaced with another set of Redstuff Ceramic as they do work well with the Tarox G88 discs I have fitted just a pity they got a tad hot.


> http://www.ebcbrakesdirect.com/car/info.asp
> 
> EBC REDSTUFF CERAMIC - TRACK DAY AND FAST STREET PAD
> 
> ...





> http://www.thettshop.co.uk/performance.asp?cat=3060&product=600503
> 
> EBC Red Stuff Pads Front - TT 180/225
> 
> ...


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

Were your discs worn thin or are they still thick as new?


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## NormStrm (Sep 6, 2003)

John-H said:


> Were your discs worn thin or are they still thick as new?


Still thick virtually as new.

I'll have to get the micrometer on them to confirm but only a slight edge on the discs.


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

Not good at all. If you buy something expecting it to do the job for which it's advertised and it doesn't then there's something wrong. 

I'd try and find out where the quotes came from e.g. did the TT shop come up with the text (it doesn't sound like them) or EBC.

I'd then follow up on it as it appears to be an example of mis-selling. :?


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

NormStrm said:


> John-H said:
> 
> 
> > Were your discs worn thin or are they still thick as new?
> ...


Most of the heat energy gets quickly stored in the thermal mass of the discs and only dissipates to ambient slowly. If your discs are thin they heat up quicker and reach a higher temperature because of the lower thermal mass but they cool the same because the surface area is the same. So if your discs are thin, the repeated braking of a track day will take them quicker to a higher temperature than thick discs. That was my thought anyway. If they're not thin then is there a pad quality problem as you first thought?

P.S. Too many holes drilled in the disc reduces thermal mass :wink: .


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## dommorton (Mar 9, 2005)

I help to run a french car forum and we have over the years had many problems with premature failure of EBC products. This is both their pads and the Turbo Groove discs.

I had a set of Turbo Grooves turn blue and crack to bits on me :evil: another fella had his greenstuff pads catch fire


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## HighTT (Feb 14, 2004)

dommorton said:


> I help to run a french car forum and we have over the years had many problems with premature failure of EBC products. This is both their pads and the Turbo Groove discs.
> 
> I had a set of Turbo Grooves turn blue and crack to bits on me :evil: another fella had his greenstuff pads catch fire


Drip ... Drip ... Drip ... Water on a Stone :roll: 
Do you think at last *John-H* , that our message is getting through :?: :?: :?: :?:

Somehow I doubt it :? :? :? :wink:


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## dommorton (Mar 9, 2005)

Strange there were always a few that defended them on our site too :?

Perhaps they don't push them far enough to ruin them? but surely the point of "performance" brakes to to be able to push them harder than you usually would OEM stuff. Otherwise they are just on the car for the sake of it and you may as well have stuck to OEM stuff anyway :roll:

Best pads I ever had were Ferodo DS2500's but they made so much dust I wouldn't be able to stand them on the TT.

TBH I have not had the V6 brakes fade on me to date so will be sticking with OEM on this one


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## HighTT (Feb 14, 2004)

dommorton said:


> Strange there were always a few that defended them on our site too :?
> 
> Best pads I ever had were Ferodo DS2500's but they made so much dust I wouldn't be able to stand them on the TT.


dommorton - I am certainly NOT defending EBC products :!: 
In my opinion and the opinion of racers that I know, 
they are very very over-rated.

I agree with you, for fast road AND track day use,
DS-2500 are the best pad I have used.


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## dommorton (Mar 9, 2005)

I know you weren't :roll:

Was referring to your drip drip drip comment :wink:


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## NormStrm (Sep 6, 2003)

scoTTy said:


> Not good at all. If you buy something expecting it to do the job for which it's advertised and it doesn't then there's something wrong.
> 
> I'd try and find out where the quotes came from e.g. did the TT shop come up with the text (it doesn't sound like them) or EBC.
> 
> I'd then follow up on it as it appears to be an example of mis-selling. :?


I've sent an email to Proven Products who supplied the pads originally and there web site still shows :-



> EBC Redstuff Ceramic Compound
> 
> Suitable for light to medium race applications, fast road usage by high performance cars and track day use
> This is a truly impressive fast road pad for repeated heavy braking. It emits far less dust than semi-metallic pads and has been proven to stop a saloon car 13 metres quicker than OEM pads from 100mph/160kph.
> ...


So will see what they have to say, then can decide what step to take next :wink:

Norman


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## NormStrm (Sep 6, 2003)

John-H said:


> Most of the heat energy gets quickly stored in the thermal mass of the discs and only dissipates to ambient slowly. If your discs are thin they heat up quicker and reach a higher temperature because of the lower thermal mass but they cool the same because the surface area is the same. So if your discs are thin, the repeated braking of a track day will take them quicker to a higher temperature than thick discs. That was my thought anyway. If they're not thin then is there a pad quality problem as you first thought?
> 
> P.S. Too many holes drilled in the disc reduces thermal mass :wink: .


John, yes I've seen your previous postings on the subject and makes a lot of sense, although I installed a set of Tarox G88 discs in Feb 05 which have the grooves which are meant to aid cooling and deglaze the pads, in combination with the Redstuff Ceramic pads would at least improve the braking performance over the standard set up. Even with the failed pads I didn't feel a problem with the brake performance it was the factr that the pad wear indicator came on, which turned out to be the sensor wire having dropped out. But once I had the wheels off to check I thought I'd take a look at the pads as the backing plates were not red by a long way.

Cheers

Norman


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## NormStrm (Sep 6, 2003)

dommorton said:


> I help to run a french car forum and we have over the years had many problems with premature failure of EBC products. This is both their pads and the Turbo Groove discs.
> 
> I had a set of Turbo Grooves turn blue and crack to bits on me :evil: another fella had his greenstuff pads catch fire


Thanks for the feedback, at least mine did not catch fire, well as far as I know they didn't 

Norman


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

HighTT said:


> dommorton said:
> 
> 
> > I help to run a french car forum and we have over the years had many problems with premature failure of EBC products. This is both their pads and the Turbo Groove discs.
> ...


Perhaps people should try some other products like Mintex or Ferodo :wink: .

I tried finding some data for the temperature range of "Red Stuff" but couldn't see any. I know Mintex show their C-Tech pads on M1144 material going up to 450 deg C. without fade which is for road use. Their M1155 and M1166 material goes up to 550 to even 700 deg C but they are for competition use only not road.

Those Tarox discs at least arn't full of holes but they do have about 40 grooves per side. I can't easily see if that's reduced their mass much from the picture. The best way to tell is to weigh them against standard discs.

To be fair, if the braking is heavy and frequent enough the discs will just get hotter and hotter until they fade. Heavier discs will heat up slower. It would be interesting to know if those Tarox discs were ultimately bright red or not. There's no paint left on the "Red Stuff" pads so I'd guess that was the case. I remember having my Escort rally car discs bright red occasionally on Mintex M171 pads but they survived ok.

I did a test on my 225 TT and got 9 stops from 70mph to zero within 2.5 minutes and got fade with perhaps 60% - 70% effective brakes. That was with standard discs and pads. It would be interesting to see how the Tarox or other discs and "Red Stuff" or other EBC pads compare, if anyone wants to test their car. This is how I did the test:
http://www.********.co.uk/ttforumbbs/vi ... hp?t=52423


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## HighTT (Feb 14, 2004)

John-H said:


> HighTT said:
> 
> 
> > dommorton said:
> ...


Even with a 'Group Buy' :?  I don't see enough people rushing out to obtain the three Thermal Paints which would be such a good indicator of what is happening to our discs.


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## dj c225 (Nov 3, 2004)

A false description really.

The trade description act requires that any descriptions or claim about and item a company is selling, should be accurate and not misleading, here it is clearly misleading.

Take it further, this is totally unacceptable :?


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## Moz (Nov 15, 2005)

Im sure trading standards would be interested if you get no joy.

As far as I know the legislation etc relating to sale of goods act is something like ...

... The pads are clearly not "fit for purpose" as they were sold as being suitable for track use and by using them in this way they have failed. As a result I think you should be looking at a refund from the supplier as you purchased the pads from them and your "contract of sale" is between you and them. If they therefore try to pass you on to the manufacturer then this is wrong. It is up to them to follow this up with their supplier as they have been mis-sold the product themselves unless they are the ones who have made up the script regarding to track day useage. Even if you have had them for a while then the porduct also has to be of sufficient quality to last for a reasonable length of time.

As I say, if you have a reciept then give trading standards a call if the supplier fobs you off and they'll probably clarify the situation with regard to what your statutory rights are.

You never know though, the supplier might come up trumps and give you a refund as there are some great companies out there who know the importance of excellent customer service - and the repeat custom this can bring  .

Cheers


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## mrdemon (Apr 20, 2005)

RED stuff are cheap pads which MAX power boys fit.
EBC are just a cheap pad full stop why do you think they only advertise in max power and not EVO.

I have no idea why the forum went mad on these, A couple of people rate them then every ones buys them and keeps buying them.

Pagid pads are the only way to go imo.

but get Â£280 out for a set.


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

Moz said:


> Im sure trading standards would be interested if you get no joy.
> 
> As far as I know the legislation etc relating to sale of goods act is something like ...
> 
> ...


Strange as it may seem I think the most important statement is:



> We at EBC do not recommend either Redstuff or Greenstuff for trackdays


... because it is direct cotradiction to:



> EBC REDSTUFF CERAMIC - TRACK DAY AND FAST STREET PAD


 and all the accompanying hype.

If you took it to the small claims court the court would simply see the first statement as an attempt to avoid responsibility for the consequences of misleading advertising claims which formed part of the contract of sale.

If you didn't have the first statement, you'd be at risk of them arguing that driving style is part of the equation and providing enough doubt to damage your case.

As it stands it's a Prima Facie case of unfit for purpose.


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## NormStrm (Sep 6, 2003)

Cheers Guys I'm going to give Proven Products a couple of days to reply, if no replay then I'll call to see what they have to say - then go from there, but Trading Standards does sound a possibility.

Norman


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## NormStrm (Sep 6, 2003)

mrdemon said:


> I have no idea why the forum went mad on these


Reason I went for them was low brake dust and also the advertising of fast road / track so should have been OK for what I wanted. Simple as that.


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## mrdemon (Apr 20, 2005)

they may be ok on track in big brake kits but you over cooked them in standard pistons

they will only work up to a temp and with a single pot piston on a small pad these pads will have over heated.

you will have no come back on them at all i am sorry to say.


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## Nando (Feb 5, 2004)

mrdemon said:


> they may be ok on track in big brake kits but you over cooked them in standard pistons
> 
> they will only work up to a temp and with a single pot piston on a small pad these pads will have over heated.
> 
> you will have no come back on them at all i am sorry to say.


...but they were made that size (to fit a TT with std brakes) and given that description... :roll:


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## NormStrm (Sep 6, 2003)

mrdemon said:


> they may be ok on track in big brake kits but you over cooked them in standard pistons
> 
> they will only work up to a temp and with a single pot piston on a small pad these pads will have over heated.
> 
> you will have no come back on them at all i am sorry to say.


Can you clarify what you are trying to say please ? I bought a set of pads for the correct car, not like I tried fitting a non standard set of pads to a TT :?


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## Hosken Racing (Sep 8, 2005)

Just out of interest we use EBC pads in our race TT. We did a test with the standard calipers and discs and managed to make the brakes last by controlled use of the pedal. There isnt a brake set up available that will take unconditional abuse! However, the standard discs and calipers are seriously undersized for use on track. Although the compound EBC produce may be capable of operating in race conditions this wont compensate for the lack of caliper and disc performance. We have uprated to AP Racing 6 pot race calipers with floating discs and use EBC pads. The brakes are superb but could still be cooked on track if we tried!
I hope this is helpful. Basically its up to the driver to use their skill to drive within the limits of their equipment and thats were the fun is :twisted: www.hosken-racing.co.uk


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## mighTy Tee (Jul 10, 2002)

I am in no way defending EBC, however I would like to make the following comments:

1) On the original discs and pads, my wheels were black within miles. On medium to fast road driving the brakes were $h1t with brake fad coming in very early. Also I felt the pads "aquaplaned" in the wet.

2) In my replacement tarox (front) grooved discs with Greenstuffs, I get minimal dust and I have not had any significant fade. On the recent track day, even as one of the slower drivers, the original pads and discs would have been $h1t, but the new set up felt good and firm throughout the day.


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

Hosken Racing said:


> ... There isnt a brake set up available that will take unconditional abuse! ...


Good comment - brake discs heat up quicker than they cool.

Try driving along with your foot hard on the accelerator whilst keeping your speed constant with the brake pedal - (Joke by the way!)


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## clived (May 6, 2002)

I put my TTOC Vice Chairman hat on and met with EBC today at Autosport and discussed this issue with them.

As Norman has said, they in no way recommend Green or Red pads for track use. Yellow is their track pad, which is also approved for road use.

This is not the first complant they have had about Proven, so they plan to take up the issue with them. They will also do what they can to ensure that Norman doesn't lose at, given he's had a demostrable problem as a result.

Very sound guys who aren't happy that a reseller is giving their product a bad name...


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## genocidalduck (May 19, 2005)

Hosken Racing said:


> Just out of interest we use EBC pads in our race TT. We did a test with the standard calipers and discs and managed to make the brakes last by controlled use of the pedal. There isnt a brake set up available that will take unconditional abuse! However, the standard discs and calipers are seriously undersized for use on track. Although the compound EBC produce may be capable of operating in race conditions this wont compensate for the lack of caliper and disc performance. We have uprated to AP Racing 6 pot race calipers with floating discs and use EBC pads. The brakes are superb but could still be cooked on track if we tried!
> I hope this is helpful. Basically its up to the driver to use their skill to drive within the limits of their equipment and thats were the fun is :twisted: www.hosken-racing.co.uk


Ive got standard OEM pads and disks on my car. I was following Norm round for most of the day. I was braking when he was etc etc....My pads are fine....So i would have thought if my OEM pads are ok, nothing would be wrong with his as EBC pads are much better than standard.


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## NormStrm (Sep 6, 2003)

clived said:


> I put my TTOC Vice Chairman hat on and met with EBC today at Autosport and discussed this issue with them.
> 
> As Norman has said, they in no way recommend Green or Red pads for track use. Yellow is their track pad, which is also approved for road use.
> 
> ...


Much appreciated Clive. I meant to call Proven today but got swamped, so will try tomorrow in case they are open and see what they have to say.

I suppose my only observation is that they could always stop supplying resellers that would not change details on web sites - but I guess not :?

Cheers

Norman


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## clived (May 6, 2002)

To clarify Norman, I was their 2nd complaint of the day... I'm not sure they'd had complaints before today...


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## NormStrm (Sep 6, 2003)

clived said:


> To clarify Norman, I was their 2nd complaint of the day... I'm not sure they'd had complaints before today...


 [smiley=thumbsup.gif] Clive the pioneer of complaints 8)

I also felt I only went out for short sessions probably 6 laps at a time. So more fast road type driving, yes I know I was on a track 

As Jamie said we were out on track doing similar laps and pace.

Norman


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## Hosken Racing (Sep 8, 2005)

Different people brake in very different ways around a race track. Some people use engine braking more or less. Some people carry more or less corner speed even when the whole lap time seems similar. 
Different pad materials heat up at different speeds and different pad materials fade at different temperatures. One thing is guaranteed and that is that the pad material needs to be able to withstand higher temperatures on a track. I use the EBC yellow pads as recomended by EBC. The brakes arent too great when they are cold but they withstand fade at operating temperature. But still my car is lighter than a standard TT with 6 pot calipers and floating discs.
I have also spoken to the technical guys at EBC and I can confirm that they recomend yellow pads for track use. But please dont expect miracles with standard calipers and discs! Just an improvement over OEM. 
I will be informing you all when we are out testing and you will be very welcome to come along and check out what we are doing. :twisted:


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

Norman's a smooth early braker so he goes in with a stable car. He's not someone who stands on the brakes 2metres before turning in.

To be honest he's one of the last people I would expect to finish off his brakes.


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## genocidalduck (May 19, 2005)

scoTTy said:


> Norman's a smooth early braker so he goes in with a stable car. He's not someone who stands on the brakes 2metres before turning in.
> 
> To be honest he's one of the last people I would expect to finish off his brakes.


Totally agree.....Didnt notice so much when slowing down on the faster bends as he was faster than me through them anyway....So if anything i was using my brakes more there. Also i think i was braking later than him on the chicanes. (Only part of the track i could catch him back up at  )


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## HighTT (Feb 14, 2004)

genocidalduck said:


> Ive got standard OEM pads and disks on my car. I was following Norm round for most of the day. I was braking when he was etc etc....My pads are fine....So i would have thought if my OEM pads are ok, nothing would be wrong with his as EBC pads are much better than standard.


Don't forget that Norm has grooved discs (about 40 grooves :?: ).
Grooved discs are not known for their kindness to pads.

Also, brakes will probably be given a harder time
on a Track Day than in most races.
Most 'Club' races only last about 20 minutes, + practice,
whilst on an open pit lane Track Day you can spend hours out there
without ever properly cooling your brakes between runs.

Another point (one which Scotty and I have disagreed over in
past) is whether or not an earlier smoother braking style gives less heat build
up than the 'standing on the brakes 2 metres before turning in'.


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## brackett (Feb 1, 2004)

I'm getting the impression that a few people don't rate EBC too highly. What do you think of Black Diamond pads and discs? (mainly for fast road, but maybe for the odd track day (no more than 1 or 2 a year max)). Thanks.


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## dommorton (Mar 9, 2005)

Had trouble with BD predator pads in the past.

They were terrible from cold as in non-existent braking  amazing when warm but dangerous from cold.

Ferodo DS 2500's are the only fast road pad I can recommend. And unless you are driving like a loon on the road I would stick with OEM for day to day use. My 2p


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## Hosken Racing (Sep 8, 2005)

I have to be honest-we put brand new pads every weekend! 
I would recomend a set of EBC Yellow pads. They are very good value for money. If you are really keen on track days then go for a bigger caliper and disc set.
I used to use the Green Stuff pads from EBC on a single seater race car with great effect. Only difference was that car weighed 375 kg with me in it!
Straight from the mouths of the technical guys at EBC-'they only recomend Yellow pads for the Audi TT for track use'
The age and condition of the pad will have an effect on the performance so renew them for a track day if you can.


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

HighTT said:


> Another point (one which Scotty and I have disagreed over in past) is whether or not an earlier smoother braking style gives less heat build up than the 'standing on the brakes 2 metres before turning in'.


Oh yeah! I forgot about that!


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## brackett (Feb 1, 2004)

dommorton said:


> Ferodo DS 2500's are the only fast road pad I can recommend.


Can you recommend a good / cheap supplier? Thanks.


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## dommorton (Mar 9, 2005)

No such thing as cheap Ferodo's I'm afraid

Managed to get FOC P&P from Demon Tweeks that was it.

Oh and beware of the brake dust if you have nice rims :!:


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## brackett (Feb 1, 2004)

dommorton said:


> Oh and beware of the brake dust if you have nice rims :!:


What, worse than OEM? 

I'll look at Demon Tweeks, thanks.


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## dommorton (Mar 9, 2005)

Performance braking comes at a price. Hence my comment on using OEM day to day


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## NormStrm (Sep 6, 2003)

Update.

I spoke to Proven Products today, had a good chat and was happy that I was not fobbed off at all in fact the guy was very helpful finding various EBC brake pads litrature where he was able clearly show that Redstuff Ceramic were, if not now rated as suitable for Track use. He did say that EBC have changed the compound about 9 times this year so it could be the latest ones were not suitable but mine were purchased last January when they were suitable.

So I am going to return the pads to them and they will take it up on my behalf with EBC, given he has the relevant data I would expect a sensible conclusion - we will see.

Norman


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

NormStrm said:


> Update.
> 
> I spoke to Proven Products today, had a good chat and was happy that I was not fobbed off at all in fact the guy was very helpful finding various EBC brake pads litrature where he was able clearly show that Redstuff Ceramic were, if not now rated as suitable for Track use. He did say that EBC have changed the compound about 9 times this year so it could be the latest ones were not suitable but mine were purchased last January when they were suitable.
> 
> ...


The thot plickens... :wink:


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## TTCool (Feb 7, 2005)

Hi

As I am about to "upgrade" my discs and pads I have re-read this thread. I found it useful. However there is one reference which has me puzzled concerning racing and smooth braking. If you are braking smoothly you must be braking earlier. Late braking was my speciality. Combined with entering a corner intelligently, i.e. knowing how you will come out of said corner, late braking was the easiest and most constant way of gaining position on the track. If your brakes and chassis can't handle this in competition you will never win races. This has very little to do with road use, obviously, but it's nice to know that you could :wink:

JMO

Joe


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## HighTT (Feb 14, 2004)

TTcool - I don't think that anybody is talking about a brake upgrade
for racing here.

I too like braking very late, but I do attempt to do it progressively;
putting a modest amount of pedal pressure on first in order to get a
weight transfer to the front to aid tyre/track grip, before full braking
force is used.

And I agree with you, it can be a good way to gain a place
but 'slow in fast out' can also apply and braking earlier can sometimes
be a good way to prevent the person behind you getting a good corner exit speed.


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## TTCool (Feb 7, 2005)

HighTT said:


> TTcool - I don't think that anybody is talking about a brake upgrade
> for racing here.
> 
> I too like braking very late, but I do attempt to do it progressively;
> ...


I must have mixed up another post from a racing team on this forum who was suggesting that they could make the red stuff last in a race situation by treating their brakes with respect :?

Slow in, fast out would mean that you would still be behind, and further behind, if the car in front was a late braker. How would you carry enough speed to overtake coming out of the corner since there is nothing stopping the late braker from being immediately on the throttle. In my experience, trying to prevent the chap behind from getting a good corner speed by braking earlier is an invitation for him to overtake you. We all have a different approach to the same things. Whatever works for you is good enough for me. 

Quote Harry Hill: There's only one way to find out. :lol:

regards

Joe


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## mrdemon (Apr 20, 2005)

brake late and as hard as possable

braking early soft will only build up the temps in your disks and pads and therefor after 3 bends you will have brake fade and glazed pads.

Why dont any of you get driver training FFS I have said this for the last 8 months learn how to drive.

so to get things clear

1: learn how to drive ( this is the most important)
2: buy better pads PAGID PAGID PAGID
3: if you want better brakes buy bigger ones but dont put cheap pads in them but you need to know how to use them.


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## TTCool (Feb 7, 2005)

I think that's what I said :wink:


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## HighTT (Feb 14, 2004)

TTCool said:


> > In my experience, trying to prevent the chap behind from getting a good corner speed by braking earlier is an invitation for him to overtake you.
> >
> > Joe


It seemed to work for Alonso at the San Marino Grand Prix
last year as he succesfully kept a faster Michael Schumacher from getting past him  :wink:


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## HighTT (Feb 14, 2004)

mrdemon said:


> so to get things clear
> 
> 1: learn how to drive ( this is the most important)
> 2: buy better pads PAGID PAGID PAGID
> 3: if you want better brakes buy bigger ones but dont put cheap pads in them but you need to know how to use them.


In principal I agree with you, but -

1: I've had a lot of race track instruction .... much of it contradictory :? 
2: What are 'better' pads :?: Do you mean a higher coefficient of friction ?????
3: What are 'bigger' brakes :?: Bigger discs, bigger pad area,
bigger piston area ??????


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## TTCool (Feb 7, 2005)

HighTT said:


> TTCool said:
> 
> 
> > > In my experience, trying to prevent the chap behind from getting a good corner speed by braking earlier is an invitation for him to overtake you.
> ...


That's not cricket though is it? :lol: :roll: 8) Mike was telling me afterwards that he was fuming.................Noooooooooooooooo. Seriously, I would hate to be boxed in behind a chap doing that to me Grrrrrr :x


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## TTCool (Feb 7, 2005)

HighTT said:


> 1: I've had a lot of race track instruction .... much of it contradictory :?
> 
> Hi
> 
> ...


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

Just a small point about heat build up in brakes with late braking or earlier longer braking. If two identical cars come down from the same speed, to the same slower speed but one brakes sharply at the end and the other brakes gently for longer; the one that brakes sharply at the end, will end up with hotter brakes.

It's just a question of where did the energy go? The sharp braker dumps nearly all the energy into the discs with little time to cool, whereas the early braker has the advantage of longer dumping of some energy to air resistance and engine braking and the disc heat dissipates for longer too. But of course, the later braker will be ahead.

For the early breaker to keep pace round a circuit he/she must reach a higher peak top speed on the straight (presuming same cornering speed etc) - that's the reason the early braker's brakes would get hotter. Does that help?


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

I agree....99% :roll: :wink:

Slow in ... fast out.

Many late breakers tend to take too much speed in or have an unsettled car. Balance that with an early braker and I don't actually believe you do need higher speeds. What you lose on entry, you can gain on the exit.


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## HighTT (Feb 14, 2004)

John-H said:


> It's just a question of where did the energy go? The sharp braker dumps nearly all the energy into the discs with little time to cool, whereas the early braker has the advantage of longer dumping of some energy to air resistance and engine braking and the disc heat dissipates for longer too.


Which comes first, the ' Cuck' or the 'oo' :?: :?

Doesn't that only apply to the first corner :? The later braker will have more time off the brakes for dumping heat energy to air (and by conduction) between corners


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

HighTT said:


> John-H said:
> 
> 
> > It's just a question of where did the energy go? The sharp braker dumps nearly all the energy into the discs with little time to cool, whereas the early braker has the advantage of longer dumping of some energy to air resistance and engine braking and the disc heat dissipates for longer too.
> ...


You're right HighTT, in that the first scenario is only for the first corner. After that you've got to average it. Then it gets into the second scenario of the early braker with higher peak speed etc. and lap times come into it.

If they both have the same lap times, both car's average speed is the same but the greater energy dumping (greater velocity change) must be greater for the early braker, averaged over one lap time, because of the higher peak speed. They've both got the same time to cool but the greater velocity change energy ends up as heat. So the late braker will run cooler because of the lower peak speed.

If they both have the same peak speed (same velocity change and energy dumping), by definition the early braker will have a longer lap time and more time to dissipate, so will run cooler.

My brain hurts now I think it's time for bed [smiley=rolleyes5.gif]


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## genocidalduck (May 19, 2005)

So early or late or a mixture of both?

I have no idea what to do on a track...At Castle Combe i was early on the brakes in the faster corners to keep the car stable and stop myself from having to do to many things at once(Alot scarier at higher speeds)....However on the chicanes most of the time i was going way past the braking zone cones before applying my brakes.


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## HighTT (Feb 14, 2004)

genocidalduck said:


> So early or late or a mixture of both?
> 
> I have no idea what to do on a track...At Castle Combe i was early on the brakes in the faster corners to keep the car stable and stop myself from having to do to many things at once(Alot scarier at higher speeds)....However on the chicanes most of the time i was going way past the braking zone cones before applying my brakes.


Cones: There are so many variables that the cones can only be a guide to help you locate YOUR ideal braking point.

And it's not just a question when you start to brake but also
when and how you lift off the brake.
At Combe try Trail Braking into Bobbies (the second chicane). 8)


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## mrdemon (Apr 20, 2005)

Just do a Andrew walsh day and stop talking about it and start doing.

you will be never fast on the track with out doing a day with andrew.

yes there are many other days you can do a don palmer day etc

but Andrew is half the price is very good and will only take 4 cars at a time

so get 4 mates together and just do the Â£$^%^ day will you.

you will learn how to steer, brake, and balance the car knowing about slip angles etc. If you do a second day you will learn heal and toe and left foot braking.

the guy who brakes early will have a much slower lap imo and all this slow in fast out is pants it depends what car you have a 911 can go fast out because the engine is in the rear and the weight is above the rear wheels so you can get on the power early. MY CSl on the other hand can go into a corner much faster because of the 50/50 weight balance the car has but can not exit as fast as a 911.

http://www.1stlotus.com/intro.htm


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

mrdemon said:


> Just do a Andrew walsh day and stop talking about it and start doing.
> 
> you will be never fast on the track with out doing a day with andrew.
> 
> ...


We aren't talking about RWD cars here - but 4wd and fwd ones.

Simple fact is, if you carry too much speed into the corner OR brake so late that the weight is still shifting in the car, you have to be a heroic AND lucky driver to go through a corner as quickly as someone who is taking it in a balanced fashion.

Quite simply, you don't see ANY F1 drivers going in fast (at the limit of traction) and balancing the car on the throttle / steering. Its bad for the car, bad for the nerves (unless you get off on that sort of thing) and will shred your tyres AND slow you down.

The quickest way that an AVERAGE driver can take a racing bend is to get the car slowed down, TURN IN AT THE RIGHT POINT, take the apex and drift out to the far curb on the exit of the bend. Exactly when you put the power down depends entirely on whether you got the first couple of bits right, but at its fastest, you'll be putting power down around the apex of the bend and using the width of the track to let the car drift over.

The reason you can't exit a corner as fast as a 911 is possibly because he has more power than you. If you didn't go into a corner QUITE so fast, you'd be able to get the power down quicker and more closely match his exit speed.

For some corners, exit speed isn't quite so important. Some of the curves at Combe, for instance, have slow chicanes right after them. Where exit speed IS important is on the curve(s) just before the fastest section of the track, as you'll have a longer distance to exploit the additional speed you've generated - so each curve should be judged on its own merits. Do you want to be faster THROUGH the curve, or slightly slower through it, but with a higher exit speed?


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## mrdemon (Apr 20, 2005)

all you say is true for a novice bar the Porsche comment 

its got nothing to do with power that a 911 can exit a corner faster than about any other car. He has so much traction at the rear because of where his engine is right above the rear wheels.

yes all your hard braking has to be done before your turn in point but you can left foot brake through the corner for a faster corner speed to balance up the slip angles.

on a front wheel drive car like a TT 150, under steer is a killer but if you brake you can transfer some weight to the front therefore giving the front tyres better bite.

taking a corner fast is all about slip angles and the balance of the car.
but if you brake to early you will never make the time up as 5 cars will have got past you into the corner.

F1 drivers brake as late and as hard as possable which is why you see a front tyre locking up but if you notice there still going in a straight line while this is going on. they are on the limit of traction.

At the end of the day you brake as late as possable to get to the fastest speed you can take the corner at then turn in then its all about slip angles and how you control them, at no point should the car lose traction for the fastest time.

know your slip angles and how to control them and you will go 30mph faster round the corner.


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

mrdemon said:


> all you say is true for a novice bar the Porsche comment
> 
> its got nothing to do with power that a 911 can exit a corner faster than about any other car. He has so much traction at the rear because of where his engine is right above the rear wheels.
> 
> ...


Braking as late as possible ISN'T the same as braking through a corner. Far from it.

For the novice driver, late braking is quite difficult, as they have to know how much pedal to apply and when to start, to enable them to take their foot OFF the brake pedal and balance the car properly to go into the corner. A more progressive and slower style of braking might lose you a couple of 10ths of a second in momentum, but I'm still suggesting ENTERING THE CORNER at the same speed, regardless of whether you've stamped on the brakes or slowed "slower"...

If you want to maintain a particular speed through a corner, you should slow to that speed and maintain it using the throttle (again, for a novice...) I can't see any reason why you'd need to unbalance the car during a turn by braking. Do F1 drivers brake around the bends? I doubt it. After the turn in, they're applying POWER, not BRAKES. If you're braking during a bend, no wonder you can't exit as fast as a 911.

Granted the Porker does have good traction, but traction is also proportional to speed - not JUST the downforce on the tyres. I'm suggesting that if you're going a bit slower than the Porsche, you CAN start to accelerate at the same time as he does - and as you're both getting the power down at the same time, exit speed is no longer dependent on traction but on the amount of power you are able to lay. So I'm still suggesting that if you carry LESS speed into the corner and put the power on quicker, you could acheive the same (or quicker) corner speed, and a higher exit speed (thus giving you a better laptime...)


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## TTCool (Feb 7, 2005)

You can't beat natural talent :lol: :lol:  8)


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## mrdemon (Apr 20, 2005)

quote " I can't see any reason why you'd need to unbalance the car during a turn by braking"

you left foot brake through a turn to balance the car matching the slip angles front and rear to obtain a higher corner speed.

F1 drivers left foot brake all the time though a corner.

You seem to have no idea what slip angles are so its pointless to carry on this way,

http://www.donpalmer.co.uk/cchandbook/modelgrip.htm

this might help you understand the basics of going round a corner fast.

I am not even going to go into the 911 thing as you have not grasped the slip angle thing yet.


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## PhilJ (Sep 2, 2002)

MrDemon, are you sure about your left foot braking comments? Whilst I agree it is a useful tool to help stop understeer, it will not work in every case, for instance in a front wheel drive car (and yet you seem to be suggesting that left foot braking will cure 150TT understeer)! If you use some left foot braking through a corner to adjust slip angles in a front wheel drive car, I reckon you will end up spinning!

They way you come across in this thread, you sound like some god of driving, but I would wager that you are actually relatively talentless. Do you regularly use left for braking on track days? Do you use left foot braking to adjust the balance of your car while driving at the limit round a corner? If so, do you honestly think you are quicker as a consequence?

I am no expert, but I have done a couple of days with Andy Walsh (who is very good) and did about a dozen track days last year, all with tuition. Only once have I found a corner where left foot braking offered ME any real benefit, and it simply allowed me to scrub a tiny bit of speed before the apex of the corner and then get straight back on the power with my right foot. For me, this is the main benefit.

Regarding your comments about late braking, I agree that in competitive driving you want to be braking at the last possible moment, but for most track day drivers you will be quicker by making sure you are setting the car up early for the corner and then keeping the power on through the corner and working on exit speed, rather than fighting to regain control of an unbalanced car.

Basically I think you talk a load of b0llocks.
:wink:


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

PhilJ said:


> MrDemon, are you sure about your left foot braking comments? Whilst I agree it is a useful tool to help stop understeer, it will not work in every case, for instance in a front wheel drive car (and yet you seem to be suggesting that left foot braking will cure 150TT understeer)! If you use some left foot braking through a corner to adjust slip angles in a front wheel drive car, I reckon you will end up spinning!
> 
> They way you come across in this thread, you sound like some god of driving, but I would wager that you are actually relatively talentless. Do you regularly use left for braking on track days? Do you use left foot braking to adjust the balance of your car while driving at the limit round a corner? If so, do you honestly think you are quicker as a consequence?
> 
> ...


Phil,

Nothing to add, except "thank-you".


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

Andy Walsh does a course very near me (M25/M11) which I've been investigating since Christmas. Anyone want to make up the numbers?


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## genocidalduck (May 19, 2005)

scoTTy said:


> Andy Walsh does a course very near me (M25/M11) which I've been investigating since Christmas. Anyone want to make up the numbers?


Yes..............Is it expensive?


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## PhilJ (Sep 2, 2002)

Scotty

I might be interested in this, dependent on when.

There is a Car Limits diary with prices and availability

http://www.carlimits.com/script/viewEve ... h=20060101

Cheers

Phil


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## HighTT (Feb 14, 2004)

scoTTy said:


> Andy Walsh does a course very near me (M25/M11) which I've been investigating since Christmas. Anyone want to make up the numbers?


There's one place available this Thursday @ Â£170.00 at N.Weald.


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## mrdemon (Apr 20, 2005)

lol you guys still dont get it please ask some one about slip angles before you get a bit red faced.

I am sh1t at driving, a course with any one good and you soon find your limits fast.
But i do know how it works which is where i think some of you are lacking.

I dont left foot brake at all as you do have to be a driving god to do it right and need space to practice.

But you dont do it to run off speed you do it to balance the car and your right not every corner is right for it.

I have done many track days and had tons of training but I am still about 20 mph off the Corner Andrew walsh make you do I spin every time 

have a look at a lap in my lotus if you like, nothing god like about that just smooth with no left foot braking in the whole lap.

http://www.s2elise.co.uk/vids/s2vsingleseat.WMV

in a front wheel drive car you can brake before the corner hard to transfer weight so you get good turn in again not right for every car or every corner..

I am not about to talk about every type of car and every type of corner here am i ?

if any one is talking bollocks its you i think.

I am just trying to drum into you that its the cars slip angles you need to know about to be able to corner fast.

non of this slow in fast out talk, you need to know why not just say what others have told you in the pub.

I hope you get the day with andrew those who are going to have a go, he will try and explain slip angles to you.


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

Perhaps you should have posted in the flame room. :lol:

Who was this aimed at?


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## genocidalduck (May 19, 2005)

genocidalduck said:


> scoTTy said:
> 
> 
> > Andy Walsh does a course very near me (M25/M11) which I've been investigating since Christmas. Anyone want to make up the numbers?
> ...


I can afford it..............So when?


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## Hosken Racing (Sep 8, 2005)

Wow! Someone started off with a complaint about some brake pads which led onto a Sid Watkins lecture on the art or race driving!!! :-* 
Someone even mentioned that driving smoothly wouldn't win races. Try a race in the rain :twisted: 
Then they went onto talking about slip angles and heat coefficient :lol: 
Different people drive differently on a race track. One thing is for sure-if your equipment doesn't last till the end of the race-you are guaranteed not to win  
Go out on the track, have fun and try some different techniques. Some will be very satisfying and some you wont bother trying again.
Cant wait to have a play on track with the bloke while he's talking slip angles and we are lapping him :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

mrdemon said:


> lol you guys still dont get it please ask some one about slip angles before you get a bit red faced.
> 
> I am sh1t at driving, a course with any one good and you soon find your limits fast.
> But i do know how it works which is where i think some of you are lacking.
> ...


Why don't you just take your slip angles and bugger off...

Its no use being able to talk the talk if you can't walk the walk. All these track days, all this instruction and STILL you can't do it properly - and I bet, when you're trying, you're slower than someone just pottering around, going "slow in, fast out..."

Like I said, for the novice (which you seem to be) trying to complicate things with so-called "racing" techniques just makes you slower. And bleating on about what you're SUPPOSED to do, yet be totally unable to do it yourself just makes you sound like Sundeep... :lol:

I'm from the "Playstation generation". I'll learn the Nurburgring from Project Gotham Racing 3, when the only reason to fanny around with the brakes mid-corner is to earn extra Kudos.

You talk a GREAT fight, mrdemon - honestly you do - but you just can't back it up in the real world. If your car and your techniques are so world-beating, how come you've never shown us? Your FLYING TT never made it to Santa Pod, did it? With your imaginary standing quarter miles, and no way to prove them, you're a laughing stock. Same with your braking techniques.

Like we'll take advice from some stroppy little cock who openly admits that, in spite of learning all the "theory", and in spite of being on training courses with "The GOD" of track driving, you still don't have the first clue on how to put it into practice.

Get a life.


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## mrdemon (Apr 20, 2005)

I am sorry you got upset because this is now over your head.
you always feel the need for a personal attack dont you ?

I have put a wav file on a lap at donny so you could see me on track.

Now go back to your playstation.

I am learing like the rest of you and have hit a limit of how fast i can go with basic driving skills.

If you want to go faster and have done 5 or 6 track days and feel the need to go faster you have to know some advananed skills which is what i am doing atm.

here is another vid of me taking a corner in full controll knowing more than i did a few weeks before and the guy in front is in a so called better car losing the back end but going much slower.

http://www.s2elise.co.uk/vids/s1nothandle.WMV


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

mrdemon said:


> I am sorry you got upset because this is now over your head.
> you always feel the need for a personal attack dont you ?
> 
> I have put a wav file on a lap at donny so you could see me on track.
> ...


*yawn*

Telling people they're talking bollocks is a personal attack is it? In which case, I think you're guilty too... :lol:

You are such a dreamer. You've made yourself look downright stupid SO many times, even if slip angles ARE the way forward, I'm afraid you've cried "WOLF" with your 12 second standing 1/4 TT... :lol: :roll: :wink:

Slip angles are NOT the way forward for the majority of people, even if it gives your instructor (but not you) an extra few seconds per lap. As you're quick to admit, the time taken to acheieve that sort of level of driving is way beyond what can be expected even from someone who attends several track days per year.

I'd also hazard that slip angles are NOT the way forward for 4wd cars. Your track experience seems to be rwd biased, so trying to tell me that you need to drive in exactly the same manner for each and every drive type is simply insane.


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

> you will be never fast on the track with out doing a day with andrew.


It is extreme comments like that which put huge holes in your argument. I would bet my mortgage that, say, Nigel Mansell or Tiff has never "done a day with andrew."

Next time I'm watching Le Mans or the BTCC or something, I'll be sure to look at the brake lights during a race. I'm betting, for the most part, they'll light up in the straight sections before a corner and probably won't be flickering on and off round the bends.


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## dee (Jun 3, 2005)

> [off topic]
> 
> This thread has the makings of a very good <Thursday>/ Friday afternoon on the forum - please continue.
> 
> [/off topic]


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## mrdemon (Apr 20, 2005)

Jammy pot just seems to get himself upset.

I said Andrew because for Â£170 there is no one who comes close

the Don parmer course is just as good may be better but its twice the price.

I have also had Phil Bennetts help on track he will meet you at a track day for a price and be with you all day.

It does not matter who you have but you need need some one i can assure you of that.

Of course 4 wheel drive, rear wheel drive and front wheel drive is not the same but the basics of cornering are still slip angle limits which ever car your in, and an instructor will teach you the best way to combat them for your car.

If your happy dropping the clutch at Chav pod then keep doing what you like, no need to worry about slip angles on a straight now is there.

But for some of the people on here who want to better themselves in there driving I would like to think Andrew is there cheapest and best bet.

ps never said i could do a 12 second 1/4


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

> Jammy pot just seems to get himself upset.


I'm not upset. I'm laughing at you.



> I have also had Phil Bennetts help on track he will meet you at a track day for a price and be with you all day.


All this tuition AND practice, and still you haven't got close to using it in anger? Blimey...



> Of course 4 wheel drive, rear wheel drive and front wheel drive is not the same but the basics of cornering are still slip angle limits which ever car your in, and an instructor will teach you the best way to combat them for your car.


Next time I'm going round Combe, enjoying myself, I'll take a physics textbook along with me. All I need to know is, if my car is understeering, it'll take more road to get around the bend, and whilst I might think I'm on the apex, actually I'm probably not.

For the average driver, knowledge of the TRACK, knowledge of their CAR and knowledge of their own particular LIMITS are FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR more important than f*cking slip angles, so why not shut up about them?



> If your happy dropping the clutch at Chav pod then keep doing what you like, no need to worry about slip angles on a straight now is there.


hehehehehe. I did enjoy my outing to Santa Pod. I've done more track days than 1/4 mile trips though. I seem to remember you were going to join us, though, seeing as your car was theoretically so much quicker. Funny how you bailed out and didn't show up. Least I put up AND shut up 



> But for some of the people on here who want to better themselves in there driving I would like to think Andrew is there cheapest and best bet.


Maybe so, and I might take myself off for tuition with him (or someone similar) when I've got a car I'd like to be able to hustle round a track - something without the handling of a ~2 tonne estate car... :lol: But I stand by the assertion that the average driver who wants to go round a circuit safely, swiftly, and courteously will not want to be f*cking around with left foot braking (which you haven't mastered), slip angles (which you're unable to describe) and will be better off balancing their (road) car properly, and using their brain to learn things like racing lines, apexes, braking points, turn-in points. Obviously the physics lesson you were given has gone right over your head... :roll:



> ps never said i could do a 12 second 1/4


Whatever figure you seemed to be quoting, it doesn't matter. Not only was it total bollocks, you also failed to show up and "prove" it. Which makes you less of a car God and more of a boasting prick. :-*


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## mrdemon (Apr 20, 2005)

I liked all of your post bar the last line 

The prick comment just made you look like one 

I estimated my car at 14.5 seconds to 100 mph on a fun bases adding two times i has estimited.

I DID do a timing before I sold it so i know what it did do in real life.

I dropped the clutch at 3000 rpm and timed it to about 105 mph on the speedo thats about a true 100 mph.

want to wager a guess before I tell ?


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

mrdemon said:


> I liked all of your post bar the last line
> 
> The prick comment just made you look like one
> 
> ...


Before you tell, please can you post a link to the first thread where you enter the silly discussion about your estimated 0-100 / standing 1/4 time? Then we can see whether you really DID estimate 14.5 seconds. I seem to remember you estimating 13s or lower... but there you go.

I'm guessing you recorded an unscientific 0-100 time of 14.5 seconds - purely because that's the figure you're kidding us you first thought of, and want to be "right"... :lol:

I guessed my car would run about 13.5s for the standing 1/4. In its state of trim, and with very poor tyres, carrying more weight than it should, I managed 14.5s - so I was wrong - but I know I can get it quicker. Doesn't help that I still think my MAF is fecked.


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## mrdemon (Apr 20, 2005)

well after timing the 60 to 100 at 7.8 seconds

the 0-100 time i did without dropping the clutch above 3000 rpm was 15.4 seconds. I have no need to hide its true time 

was hoping for 14.9 but it was only a remaped car with exhaust after all.

Still for a TT thats not a bad real road time imo

I timed the CSL from 60 to 100 and its not ideal as it hits the limiter at about 99 mph but that did it in 5.1 seconds.
it could do with a gear change as it picks up just after 60 mph then slows at 98 mph. so dead on 60 to 100 is not the best thing to time on this car.
But out and out pace has been fantastic.


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

mrdemon said:


> I timed the CSL from 60 to 100 and its not ideal as it hits the limiter at about 99 mph but that did it in 5.1 seconds.


So it's not a 0-100 time then. We can all moan about our gear ratios etc (TT can't hit 60 in 2nd blah blah) but that doesn't changed anything.

Do you have a 0-100 time (a real one) or not?

p.s. Your video didn't seem to show much that held me in awe. Looked very much like slow in fast out.

However I admit to not being the worlds best driver. I've seen too many good ones on the 25+ trackdays that I've done to claim that. Maybe I'm missing something that a more experienced driver would pick out of the video.

The fact the car in front lost the rear only has a small bearing on speed. He may have found he was a little too fast (for his comfort factor) and lifted causing that. ....but I guess you knew that due to all your training. :wink:


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## charliec (Dec 8, 2005)

So Redstuff pads are no good for track days!? :wink:


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

Not that I doubt mrdemon's maths or timing skills, but the figures I'm generally seeing quoted on the web suggest that the CSL shaves about 0.2s off a standard M3 60-100mph time, which is often quoted as high as the 6.0's and 7.0's. 5.1 would seem a TAD optimistic for a true 60-100mph time.

A TT would be into the 9.0's or 10's...

You can't run a TT 0-100 in 15.4 seconds with a 7.8 second 60-100mph. Even by your bogus calculations "adding on" a 6.0 second 0-60, that still gives you a 13.8 0-100 time, and lets face it, 6.0 seconds is only "average" by tuned TT standards.


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## mrdemon (Apr 20, 2005)

we are all learning 

the CSL is 0-100 in 10.7 so I am told by people on the CSL forum.

thoses vids are over a year old and yes it was just a case of being smooth but i was braking much later than most on the track and catching much faster cars just in the braking zones.

I can tell you one thing the CSL will see the track but i am doing another Walshy day before i go.

maybe bhives in his CSL and two TT can all do a Andrew day to make a group of 4


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## mrdemon (Apr 20, 2005)

Jampott i dont get your post sorry ?

all i could manage 0-100 in the TT was 15.4 and thats a real road time.
as you say you cannot add two times to each other.

the CSL did 60-100 5.1 seconds I timed it about 4 times the dead same every time.

the TT did 60 -100 in 7.8 seconds i timed that many times also.

did clive not time 4.3seconds 60-100 in something on that post a few months back.

as for m3 v CSL the BHP/ton is 36 bhp/ton greater in the CSL and with 200 kg's less weight than a M3 its going to be quicker than 0.2 seconds


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

mrdemon said:


> Jampott i dont get your post sorry ?
> 
> all i could manage 0-100 in the TT was 15.4 and thats a real road time.
> as you say you cannot add two times to each other.
> ...


You've already agreed you didn't get to 100mph, which makes your figures absolute tosh 

I'd be surprised if a non big turbo TT could get under 8 seconds for 60-100.


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## NaughTTy (Jul 9, 2003)

Soooooo......How are the brakes Norman :roll: :wink:


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## mrdemon (Apr 20, 2005)

well I did it in 7.8 in my TT so :?

it was a rolling start from 50 mph to 110 and i just times the 60-100 part

i did not sit at 60 mph then floor it 
book and web times state sitting at 60 mph in a gear then flooring it.

wish i would have took a vid because it was a very constant time and i must have done it on the motorway both ways about 10 times all within 0.1 or 0.2 of a second.

The CSL was the same it just gets to 100mph on the clock and 5.1 was the time it kept doing, i can vid that if you like . I have not seen how far out the CSL clock is yet though but no more than 5 mph i bet.


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

mrdemon said:


> well I did it in 7.8 in my TT so :?
> 
> it was a rolling start from 50 mph to 110 and i just times the 60-100 part
> 
> ...


So it isn't possible to compare your testing times with the way magazine articles etc perform the tests?

That's fair enough. Explains why your figures are quite a bit different to what is being quoted then.

Perhaps I should time my 60-95mph runs as a comparison. Can do that quite happily in 3rd gear.


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## TTCool (Feb 7, 2005)

Hosken Racing said:


> Wow! Someone started off with a complaint about some brake pads which led onto a Sid Watkins lecture on the art or race driving!!! :-*
> Someone even mentioned that driving smoothly wouldn't win races. Try a race in the rain :twisted:
> Then they went onto talking about slip angles and heat coefficient :lol:
> Different people drive differently on a race track. One thing is for sure-if your equipment doesn't last till the end of the race-you are guaranteed not to win
> ...


Hi

Not sure what you are talking about here, suffice to say, as a participant in this thread, I hope you are not refering to anything I have said.

Regards

Joe


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## TTCool (Feb 7, 2005)

TTCool said:


> Hosken Racing said:
> 
> 
> > Wow! Someone started off with a complaint about some brake pads which led onto a Sid Watkins lecture on the art or race driving!!! :-*
> ...


Hosken Racing. You have a PM


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## NormStrm (Sep 6, 2003)

NaughTTy said:


> Soooooo......How are the brakes Norman :roll: :wink:


Nearly missed your posting :lol: Well I sent a pair of pads back to Proven. I'll try and give them a ring in the morning to see what there opinion of the pads is, but they were going to send off to EBC to get things sorted.


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## Neil (May 7, 2002)

Not read all of the 10 pages, but I get the impression that EBC say that RedStuff are not suitable for track days full stop.

But their own packaging says they are suitable :? ....

http://www.********.co.uk/gallery/neil1003/SAVE0126_edited.jpg


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## NormStrm (Sep 6, 2003)

neil1003 said:


> Not read all of the 10 pages, but I get the impression that EBC say that RedStuff are not suitable for track days full stop.
> 
> But their own packaging says they are suitable :? ....


Got it in one


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## Neil (May 7, 2002)

NormStrm said:


> neil1003 said:
> 
> 
> > Not read all of the 10 pages, but I get the impression that EBC say that RedStuff are not suitable for track days full stop.
> ...


So are they (EBC) still saying they are NOT suitable, even though their own packaging contradicts this? :?


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## NormStrm (Sep 6, 2003)

neil1003 said:


> So are they (EBC) still saying they are NOT suitable, even though their own packaging contradicts this? :?


Yep, I've sent a pair of pads back via the distributor I purchased from to see what they have to say, as Proven have various catalogues stating "Track Day Pads etc" so will see what they have to say now.

When I spoke to EBC intially I did not have specific proof that they were sold as fit for track use, so got the feeling now I was fobbed off.

If I don't get any satisfaction this way as people have suggested get Trading Standards involved.

We'll see :wink:


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## NormStrm (Sep 6, 2003)

Well I had a call from Kevin @ Proven Products that EBC had provided them with a refund and in turn he has refunded me. So very pleased with the service from Proven Products but no comment on the returned pads from EBC, which doesn't really answer the question as to whether they were sold as fit for "fast road and track".

I have a full set of redstuff ceramic on my TT now which were fitted before attending the Prodrive event organised by Big Jon (28/12/05) and they were fine and are still looking very red, so I can only assume they were a bad batch possibly !!

Norman


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## genocidalduck (May 19, 2005)

Good result.

Must have been a bad batch....I took my car in for new tyres the other day. They said they would do a brake check as i had been on the track...Came back and said my brakes were perfect.


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