# Has anyone replaced their brake fluid?and with what?



## TT DWN UNDER (Aug 29, 2007)

Just reading through my Bentley manual and I think I'm overdue for a brake fluid replace..
I would imagine you need a specialist to do it, but would probably supply my own fluid if there is a "better " one than 
standard....has anyone had theirs done? and what brake fluid would you recommend? cheers


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## rabTT (Nov 14, 2006)

Remember, if you've read your manual it clearly states the non use of a silicone based fluid ie 5.1 :? I'm doing a 225-to-3.2 front brake upgrade and I'm going for Castrol Response DOT4, which is plenty good for street/fast road. Above that there are obviously fluids that are great if you track or race your car regularly, however that's not a reason in itself to go bonkers! :wink:

As for replacing the fluid, I'm going to use a one-man pressure bleed system to ensure a thorough replacement :wink:


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## Neb (Oct 25, 2007)

I'm in the process of switching to dot 4 ATS super blue racing fluid. Although the OEM stuff is great if you're not tracking the car


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## beeyondGTR (Jun 16, 2009)

just make sure it is dot 4


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

You can do it yourself with a vacuum bleeder and without Vag-Com, such as the three bottle Draper kit, drawing off 200ml from each caliper (don't forget the clutch). With the draper kit you need to rig up an automatic master top up device using one of the bottles and a flexible tube due to the awkward position of the master cylinder. Pressure bleeders need to be limited to 1BAR maximum.


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## Super Josh (May 29, 2009)

Neb said:


> I'm in the process of switching to dot 4 ATS super blue racing fluid. Although the OEM stuff is great if you're not tracking the car


I also switching to the *ATE* Super Blue. Supposed to have a higher boiling point han the normal DOT 4 stuff.

Josh


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## nate42 (Apr 9, 2008)

I'm using Motul RBF600.


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## rabTT (Nov 14, 2006)

Super Josh said:


> Neb said:
> 
> 
> > I'm in the process of switching to dot 4 ATS super blue racing fluid. Although the OEM stuff is great if you're not tracking the car
> ...


A word of warning about ATE Racing Blue! [smiley=stop.gif] Look at their website and they'll tell you about 'old' stock being sold by some third parties. They tell you how to watch out for this stuff (purely by sight ie looking at the tin) and not to buy it - they cannot guarantee that it'll live up to your expectations. For that reason alone, I steered clear of it for now.

Also read somewhere that you got to change this particular one more regular because as it's designed as a 'racing' fluid, it has a short shelf life and daily driving just doesn't cut its mustard if you know what I mean :?


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## HighTT (Feb 14, 2004)

nate42 said:


> I'm using Motul RBF600.


+1 [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

Very high wet and dry boiling points, easily available and reasonable price.


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## Marco34 (Apr 5, 2009)

John-H said:


> You can do it yourself with a vacuum bleeder and without Vag-Com, such as the three bottle Draper kit, drawing off 200ml from each caliper (don't forget the clutch). With the draper kit you need to rig up an automatic master top up device using one of the bottles and a flexible tube due to the awkward position of the master cylinder. Pressure bleeders need to be limited to 1BAR maximum.


Agree, they are great to use.I got a gunsen easy bleed kit. Uses the spare tyre as pressure at about 15psi. Makes life easy.


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## TT DWN UNDER (Aug 29, 2007)

Marco34 said:


> John-H said:
> 
> 
> > You can do it yourself with a vacuum bleeder and without Vag-Com, such as the three bottle Draper kit, drawing off 200ml from each caliper (don't forget the clutch). With the draper kit you need to rig up an automatic master top up device using one of the bottles and a flexible tube due to the awkward position of the master cylinder. Pressure bleeders need to be limited to 1BAR maximum.
> ...


Cheers for that guys...So your saying its not that difficult to do yourself with some sort of "bleeder kit"? Are they costly?
I would assume you bleed out almost the entire brake fluid resevoir, then fill it up with the new fluid, then keep bleeding for a certain amount of time on each wheel starting with ...erm....do they have a line for each wheel going to the resevoir?
So if they do, which i suspect they would, you would bleed out more on the rears than the fronts? How do you know when all the old fluid is gone and the new fluid is comming through?

Also just checked the Motul RBF Factoryline 600 it says for racing conditions..does this also mean it wont have the same shelf life as the standard Motul Dot4? cheers


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

Don't forget you need to keep the master topped up throughout the process so as not to let any air in.


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## HighTT (Feb 14, 2004)

TT DWN UNDER said:


> Also just checked the Motul RBF Factoryline 600 it says for racing conditions..does this also mean it wont have the same shelf life as the standard Motul Dot4? cheers


I use RBF 600 in my track car and change it every year because it gets such harsh use but I don't know if it's any more hygroscopic than any other fluid.
I use ATE Super Blue in my road car and change it every two years (as is recommended).

Re. 'Shelf Life' somebody mentioned Old ATE Stock. If the tin is sealed I can't see that being a problem.


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## tony_rigby_uk (Nov 27, 2008)

I replaced my Brake Fluid with................

Strangly enough....... Brake Fluid..... :lol: ..... was going to use water but got advised against it :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

tony_rigby_uk said:


> I replaced my Brake Fluid with................
> 
> Strangly enough....... Brake Fluid..... :lol: ..... was going to use water but got advised against it :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


You may laugh but there was a case of a chap stopped by the police who's car started rolling and he explained that his handrake didn't work because he'd worn it out. When asked why he explained that his brakes had failed so he had been using the handbrake. It turned out that he was a chef and had topped up his brake fluid with cooking oil. Yes cooking oil! When his brakes failed completely he'd taken the car into Kwik Fit who had told him all his seals were swolen and the entire system needed replacing which will cost a couple of grand. He couldn't afford this so had been using the handbrake since then. Naturally the police arrested him and wouldn't let him continue driving with his kids in the back  .


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## rabTT (Nov 14, 2006)

HighTT said:


> Re. 'Shelf Life' somebody mentioned Old ATE Stock. If the tin is sealed I can't see that being a problem.


Not according to ATE . . if they look out for this issue on their website, then I'm sorry, I'm going to heed their advice. I certainly won't be recommending that anyone buys and uses 'old' stock - would you use a tin of brake fluid a couple of years old?? Aren't tins porous, even on a microscopic level. . . .?


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## HighTT (Feb 14, 2004)

rabTT said:


> HighTT said:
> 
> 
> > Re. 'Shelf Life' somebody mentioned Old ATE Stock. If the tin is sealed I can't see that being a problem.
> ...


Yes 

Please point to where on their site they are warning of this issue.
The only thing I can find under Super Blue Storage is _"No decomposition if stored and applied as directed."_


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## rabTT (Nov 14, 2006)

You know when you find something and try to find it again but can't .. grrr! :x Didn't bookmark it but found a similar comment here: http://www.k300performance.co.uk/ate-su ... -fluid.php

Hope this helps


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## HighTT (Feb 14, 2004)

rabTT said:


> You know when you find something and try to find it again but can't .. grrr! :x Didn't bookmark it but found a similar comment here: http://www.k300performance.co.uk/ate-su ... -fluid.php
> 
> Hope this helps


Excellent  _"We have found that some sellers of the ATE Racing Blue maybe selling off old stock *cheap"*_, Group Buy everbody :?: :wink: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## rabTT (Nov 14, 2006)

HighTT said:


> rabTT said:
> 
> 
> > You know when you find something and try to find it again but can't .. grrr! :x Didn't bookmark it but found a similar comment here: http://www.k300performance.co.uk/ate-su ... -fluid.php
> ...


 :roll: :lol:


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## TT DWN UNDER (Aug 29, 2007)

I dont supose someone has done or could do a pictured walkthrough of "replacing your brake fluid"....(John H? =] )
It looks simple enough from the manual but Im not completely confident....
Can it be done without any "assisted break bleeding pumps"...it probably will take longer but thats fine with me....
I'd hate to get air in the lines......cheers


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

I just used the manual but I did get myself a Draper three bottle bleed kit. I took these pictures meaning to do a How To on the subject but didn't get round to it. It's about time I did mine again but I'm not going to be able to for a while. If you get the same kit it needs a little adaptation as the TT's master cylinder (at least on right hand drive models) makes the intended automatic top up bottle impossible to use. It's simple to adapt the storage bottle to do the same job however:

You need to fill the bottle and attach a flexible PVC tube over the spout. Hang the bottle upside down with the end of the tube below the surface of the fluid.










The end of the tube can be held in place with a wire clip. When the fluid level drops the bottle glugs out fluid until the end of the tube gets covered again.










The bleed bottle needs a compressed air line to create a vacuum through a venturi but is just a simple case of opening each nipple and drawing off 200ml in the right order and closing the nipple.










*General bleeding*

Whether you use this kit or another or pressure type kit, or even just a one way valve and bottle and pump the pedal the following should still apply:

Use DOT 4 based fluid. Excellent fluid information *here.*

If using a pressure bleeder make sure the *maximum pressure applied is 1 bar *otherwise a hydraulically controlled change over valve which is part of the EDL system may prevent unrestricted flushing of the EDL system and the system may not bleed properly.

*Make sure the master cylinder is kept topped up at all times otherwise air may be drawn in and you may need to use VAG-COM to exercise the ABS pump. *









*Bleed sequence:*

1 - Front left brake caliper
2 - Front right brake caliper
3 - Rear left brake caliper
4 - Rear right brake caliper

● Remove rubber dust cap from each wheel cylinder in turn and attach catch bottle.
● Open bleed nipple and extract fluid until no bubbles are seen coming out. Be careful not to open bleed nipple too far otherwise air can be drawn in with vacuum extraction or into system on pedal release with foot pumping method. 
● Extract 200ml from each caliper when simply refreshing the fluid.
● Nipple tightening torque 10 Nm.

Start the engine to properly test pedal firmness with servo assistance. If the pedal is still spongy after this you may need to bleed the master cylinder. There are two bleed nipples on the side (RHD vehicles). Extract fluid from each until no bubbles are seen.










If the pedal still remains spongy and perhaps you have repeated the sequence, then is there a possibility you have allowed some air to get into the master cylinder and into the ABS pump. If so you will need to use VAG-COM to bleed it out.

You will need two catch bottles in order to bleed both front calipers simultaneously. For a one man operation two one way valve bleed tubes (which you can get from motor factors for about £3.00 each) come in handy each draining into standing glass bottles.

VAG-COM will drive the pump motor and instruct you to pump and pressurise the pedal in a step by step sequence. After running through this sequence you should have no more air in the brake system.

● Using VAG-COM select "03 ABS Brakes" controller.
● Select diagnostic function "04 Basic settings"
● Select or enter Display group 001 and follow instructions advancing the group number with each completed step.

*Clutch bleeding*

The hydraulic clutch also operates using the same fluid obtained from the brake master cylinder reservoir. The two systems are separate in all other respects. Should you need to bleed the clutch then here's the procedure:










● Attach catch bottle to slave cylinder and open bleed nipple
● Bleed out approximately 100 ml
● Close bleed valve
● Operate clutch pedal quickly from stop to stop 15 times
● Bleed another 50 ml of fluid
● Close bleed valve and tighten to 4.5 Nm
● Depress clutch pedal several times after bleeding and bleed again if necessary

Hope that helps Shandor


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## Super Josh (May 29, 2009)

Nice write-up and pictures as always John 

Josh


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## TT DWN UNDER (Aug 29, 2007)

Cheers John, I just bought the "Gunson eezibleed kit" recomended by Marco, so I'll give that a go.
It uses the spare tyre pressure to pressurise the system and I dont think you have to hang anything..it looks prety simple
to use....I hope... I'll Take a few pics myself and post them also....

Heres the kit... http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stor ... yId_165469

Cheers


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## Grahamstt (Jul 22, 2008)

rabTT said:


> Super Josh said:
> 
> 
> > Neb said:
> ...


Good warning there, I'll have to check it out as I'm using ATE Blue fluid. Seemed to work better than standard the fluid that was in my system at a recent track day tho [smiley=book2.gif]

Graham


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## Neb (Oct 25, 2007)

rabTT said:


> HighTT said:
> 
> 
> > Re. 'Shelf Life' somebody mentioned Old ATE Stock. If the tin is sealed I can't see that being a problem.
> ...


So you're telling people NOT to buy this fluid because there might be a small chance that the bought a tin was essentially expired? What about all the new tins of it? If you trust your shop that you're buying from then there shouldn't be a problem with it. Eventually the new stuff becomes old too right? Just seems like silly advice you're giving people


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

TT DWN UNDER said:


> Cheers John, I just bought the "Gunson eezibleed kit" recomended by Marco, so I'll give that a go.
> It uses the spare tyre pressure to pressurise the system and I dont think you have to hang anything..it looks prety simple
> to use....I hope... I'll Take a few pics myself and post them also....
> 
> ...


I went for the Draper kit as it appeared to be good quality build and there's no chance of exceeding one bar differential pressure with it. You do need compressed air though and as I found out some adaptation.

Just be careful not to exceed one bar pressure with the spare tyre on the Gunsons kit otherwise a valve in the TT's brake system will move and prevent proper bleeding.

I also had an accident with the Gunsons kit years ago when a badly fitting master cylinder lid blew off and sprayed brake fluid all over the place!


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## Marco34 (Apr 5, 2009)

As John has said. Ensure the tyre pressure is set correct. You can't go wrong. I didn't have the same experience John had!! As i said in my PM, just make sure all is secure before applying the pressure to the system.


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## poor1 (Dec 28, 2011)

I pass this one for what it's worth:

I was fitting a new rear caliper on my Audi the other day, using the Motive bleeder. At first attempt I had a hard pedal without the engine running, but with the engine running the pedal was sinking. There were no leaks and it obviously wanted bleeding again. The official Audi manual gives the following instructions, which I have edited to be relevant to Motive.: 
1. attach bleeder bottle hose to bleed screw
2.then use your usual bleed sequence - front left, front right etc.
3. attach Motive to brake master cylinder and test for pressure.
4. put brake fluid in the the container when satisfied that the pressure is not dropping and pressurise again.
5 leave bleed screw open, with bleed bottle connected, until fluid emerges out of the bleed screw and free of air bubbles.
6 build up pressure in brake system to aid bleeding by pumping pedal five times.
7. tighten bleed screw to 10 Nm and detach hose.
8 Start engine and test pedal travel and pedal pressure.
9. if the pedal travel is excessive, check brake system for leaks or repeat bleeding procedure.

My pedal was afterwards and who knows it might have been fine without pumping the brake pedal, but I have never come across this suggestion before and it might be of interest to someone


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## forker (Jul 20, 2012)

John-H said:


> I just used the manual but I did get myself a Draper three bottle bleed kit. I took these pictures meaning to do a How To on the subject but didn't get round to it. It's about time I did mine again but I'm not going to be able to for a while. If you get the same kit it needs a little adaptation as the TT's master cylinder (at least on right hand drive models) makes the intended automatic top up bottle impossible to use. It's simple to adapt the storage bottle to do the same job however:
> 
> You need to fill the bottle and attach a flexible PVC tube over the spout. Hang the bottle upside down with the end of the tube below the surface of the fluid.
> 
> ...


Well, mine has had a long pedal since I replaced front discs and pads so seemed like a good candidate for bleeding. I was pleased to see this detailed guide; looks comprehensive, I thought.

I'm on OEM calipers and discs rather than anything more spangly.

I removed the caliper on each side, dangled it on a bungee and didn't disconnect hoses. I retracted the piston on each side using a conventional windback tool; I replaced pads with ECP's most average. I then noticed that the replacements had no wear sensor so replaced them again (felt a muppet but relieved I hadn't sprung for posh pads at that point)
Then, in driving, noticed a long pedal. ABS response could be invoked but the expected solid feel and solid response was, shall we say, quite a lot more progressive

I've since bled the system out; about a litre and a half has gone through and as always some bubbles have emerged. No, I haven't used VAGCOM in any of this. If there's a walkthrough for that, I'd appreciate someone to point me at it.

I've used the gunson eezibleed device as both the means of propelling replacement fluid from the bottle through the systems and also as a means of refilling the reservoir while I pumped the pedal to push fluid through. I did follow the LHF/RHF/LHR/RHR sequence. I may have exceeded one bar bottle pressure.

Pedal length is improved but not where it needs to be.

In John's text above the EDL system and a related valve is mentioned; I'm now thinking I've achieved something with that, either in windback or in bleeding or even both . What is it, where is it and what would be done if the valve has been pushed across?

Plus, as usual, helpful advice in general is always welcome. I'd like to fix it myself and I'd like to understand what's going on, rather than just give in and take it to a shop. I'm not that far from Brackley so that's a safety net, but......

regards

F


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## DC240S (Sep 24, 2014)

I'm of the opinion theres no point upgrading brake fluid in a standard aged brake setup with old rubber hoses and standard pad compounds and discs - just use DOT 4 to the required standard.

As for bleeding I used the Gunsons bleed kit pressurised to 15 psi and when the process of bleeding was completed I removed the kit, ran the engine, applied the brakes a number of times, made a number of checks and bled the callipers a second time.


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