# Capital punishment



## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

reading Gazzers mail about dead men walking I wondered what the view of the people within the forum is on Capital Punishment. Is it right to take an eye for an eye?


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

I think the other news this week (the 24 year old man released after serving 7 years for a crime he didn't commit) is the only explanation anyone needs as to why capital punishment is a bad idea.


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

Brian bud............i wish they would bring back capital punishment and even the death sentence. ok maybe one in a hundred are later proved to be innocent, if it stops or decreases the attrocities that currently go on in our society i could live with that. should have made this a poll mucker......go back and edit it to a poll


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## hibster (Feb 23, 2012)

re an eye for an eye, the quote that people often reference from the bible as if that justifies it

but that's old testament (i looked it up) & the old testament says lots of things, including things like women that wear trousers are an abomination & if you blaspheme you should be stoned to death
the new testamant references it
you've heard it said an eye for an eye etc but i tell you do not resist an evil person & then goesd on about turning the other cheek

i'm not religious btw, just one of those things people use the bible to justify that is not actually what it says
i personally dont think you can justify capital punishment - it doesnt change what's been done & it clearly isn't a detterent or there would be no crime in the places that have it - eg the states


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## YELLOW_TT (Feb 25, 2004)

There are people in jail as we speak who have committed the most horrendous crimes have been there for years and years and are 100% guilty Ifor one can think of a lot better things to spend our tax money on than keeping them alive
Also bring back the burch etc for all the little CHAVS and druggies who think it is OK to steal and rob from people who work hard for there wages and live an honest life
A prisoner is garanteed warmth, clothing and 3 good meals a day can you say the same about OAPs in this country :evil:


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

Gazzer said:


> i wish they would bring back capital punishment and even the death sentence.


Brilliant...


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## YoungOldUn (Apr 12, 2011)

YELLOW_TT said:


> There are people in jail as we speak who have committed the most horrendous crimes have been there for years and years and are 100% guilty Ifor one can think of a lot better things to spend our tax money on than keeping them alive
> Also bring back the burch etc for all the little CHAVS and druggies who think it is OK to steal and rob from people who work hard for there wages and live an honest life
> A prisoner is garanteed warmth, clothing and 3 good meals a day can you say the same about OAPs in this country :evil:


+1


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

Heh... For some insane reason I thought this might actually be a debate about morality. It turns out, people are actually ok with killing other human beings on the basis it would save us some money. There's a euthanasia thread on here somewhere that needs your contribution - think how much all those terminally ill people are costing the NHS!!


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## YELLOW_TT (Feb 25, 2004)

Spandex said:


> Heh... For some insane reason I thought this might actually be a debate about morality. It turns out, people are actually ok with killing other human beings on the basis it would save us some money. There's a euthanasia thread on here somewhere that needs your contribution - think how much all those terminally ill people are costing the NHS!!


I am sorry but someone who can commit in human acts does not deserve to be treated as a human being


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

YELLOW_TT said:


> I am sorry but someone who can commit in human acts does not deserve to be treated as a human being


That's just semantics... These are all very human acts. Humans have been committing them for thousands of years.

How much courage do you have in your convictions? Would you still be all for the death penalty if *you* were (wrongfully) arrested for someones murder? Or do you just think, "that'll never happen to me, so fuck them"? I wonder if any of the thousands of people who've been wrongfully convicted in the past ever thought it would happen to them?


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## YELLOW_TT (Feb 25, 2004)

Fred West Ian Brady Peter Sutcliff Harold Shipman to name but a few all 100% guilty absolutely guilty and totally evil how many millions have been spent keeping these people in the luxury of prison over the years and believe me it is luxury competed to how some of our OAP live 
As for my convictions I will gladly take the chance of being wrongfully arrested and I have been in the past for armed armed robbery 
So boot on the other foot how would you fee if you were the father and your doughtier had just got away from a violent partner, on the day he receive an injunction it keep him away he picks up a knife from his kitchen, goes out looking for her finds her with her father and 6 year old son 10 yards from her house stabs the father to get to her and then stabs her to death in front of her son
What happened to him he got 6 years for manslaughter and was out after 3
I wish we could all live in this perfect world you appear to think we do


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## YoungOldUn (Apr 12, 2011)

I remember a time in the late 50's overhearing 4 or 5 'Teddy boys' discussing a forthcoming holiday to the Isle of Man which still used the 'Birch'. One asked if another was going to take his cut throat razor with him and the response was that there was no way he would as the Island still used the Birch.

This incident has remained in my memory as an example of how corporal punnishment was a deterent together with my own experiences at school which used the 'Cane' as a punishment and deterent. IMO it was a big mistake to cease the use of corporal punnishment in the classroom and as a criminal punishment.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

YELLOW_TT said:


> Fred West Ian Brady Peter Sutcliff Harold Shipman to name but a few all 100% guilty absolutely guilty and totally evil how many millions have been spent keeping these people in the luxury of prison over the years and believe me it is luxury competed to how some of our OAP live
> As for my convictions I will gladly take the chance of being wrongfully arrested and I have been in the past for armed armed robbery
> So boot on the other foot how would you fee if you were the father and your doughtier had just got away from a violent partner, on the day he receive an injunction it keep him away he picks up a knife from his kitchen, goes out looking for her finds her with her father and 6 year old son 10 yards from her house stabs the father to get to her and then stabs her to death in front of her son
> What happened to him he got 6 years for manslaughter and was out after 3
> I wish we could all live in this perfect world you appear to think we do


But the law doesn't have "100% guilty" and "Probably guilty". Everyone who get's sent down _should_ just be guilty. So, how do you define who gets the chop (or the noose, or injection, or bullet)? Oh, and I said wrongfully convicted, not arrested... If you were on death row, maybe you'd finally realise how stupid the whole thing is.

How would I feel about your hypothetical scenario? Probably the same emotions as most people, but I still wouldn't agree with the death penalty, sorry.

I don't think I live in a 'perfect world'. I know exactly what the world's like, I'm just 100% certain that capital punishment would make no difference, other than increasing the amount of unnecessary deaths in the world. Do you actually think that capital punishment is a solution to anything?? The US has the death penalty and a zero-tolerance approach to sentencing and their homicide rate is significantly higher than ours. Maybe you just like the idea of revenge.

Or maybe you're just trying to save us money...


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## ScoobyTT (Aug 24, 2009)

So Britain is becoming steadily Americanised and superficial, and we can expect the same problems to arise. What then is the solution? Sterilisation of scum seems like a decent alternative. It'd improve the quality of the gene pool, reduce spongers, reduce the groups that are most likely to be involved in crime. What's not to like? :wink:


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## YELLOW_TT (Feb 25, 2004)

Spandex said:


> YELLOW_TT said:
> 
> 
> > So boot on the other foot how would you fee if you were the father and your doughtier had just got away from a violent partner, on the day he receive an injunction it keep him away he picks up a knife from his kitchen, goes out looking for her finds her with her father and 6 year old son 10 yards from her house stabs the father to get to her and then stabs her to death in front of her son
> ...


This is not a hypothetical scenario this is a case in fact and the victim was a good friend of my mother
I wonder if her father was a understand as you


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

YELLOW_TT said:


> Spandex said:
> 
> 
> > YELLOW_TT said:
> ...


It is a hypothetical scenario if you put me in the place of the father (which you did) - you asked me to hypothesise. Asking you how you'd feel if you were the first man on the moon would be a hypothetical question, even though someone *did* walk on the moon in 1969.

I've seen plenty of relatives of victims on the news, who have been as 'understanding' as you think I am (although I don't think understanding has anything to do with it) - and I'm always amazed and impressed by their humanity. They may not be able to forgive the other person, but they're able to see that revenge isn't a solution to the problem, or a cure for how they're feeling.


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

i get the feeling spandy that you are actualy devoid of feelings and emotions for this current society we live in, did mummy and daddy wrap you in so much cotton wool as a child that you cannot see life as it is for us normal people? just out of interest did you breast feed till the age of thirty to have such an outlook on life :roll:

get real bud and see how normal people have normal feelings in life and let off steam over topics like this, god i bet your wife/boyfriend or whatever you have has a real interesting evening being proved wrong continually by big words and that higher intellect you pretend to use.......but just make yourself look a complete knob i think lol

jim said it straight.......the cane at school did work and did me no harm as did the odd slap or punch from my father to keep me in line for society. ahhh now we come to it.......parents and why do they not teach the basic rules in life to the kids they pop out in the millions.


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

I want to be totally honest in response to something Spandex said; I want to say that I totally understand his view and the civilised human being within me even agrees with it. For me we are not dealing with human beings, it is not about morals, it is not about whether it is right or wrong, I definately know that it will resolve little, the murdered person cannot be brought back, the family of the deceased cannot turn back the clock, the beaten old lady cannot be made to forget the terror.What is it about for me then? I remember alf garnet saying that when it comes to hooligans who beat up old folk that they should be branded 'hooligan' on the forehead, so that when good decemt people saw them, they could punch kick and beat the living shit out of them :lol: It is totally about revenge and what is wrong with that? If that gang of perverts who raped those young girls in Manchester were taken to one side and f#cked hard up the arse with a spade handle over and over again, then they may get close to feeling the pain shame and hurt they dealt out. If the f#ckers who beat up that old lady were taken to one side, stripped, bound, maced in the eyes so they couldnt see and then left a little while to wonder their fate screaming unheard ,before experiencing every blow they dealt out, then they may just learn something. The murderers, I dont want them to learn anything, they are beyond learning, I just want them gone forever so that one day my grandson, daughter, partner, mother, father, sister doesn't bump in to him. I want him so obliterated that in a world where there is so much to worry about, that I wouldn't have to worry about him. Spandex was right when he said that murderers have been around forever, but then again so have decent folk willing to stand up and be counted against the tyrrany and fear that this scum bring to our planet. Would it have been right to hang hitler? Stalin? Amin? You are dam right it would - to me one life is as important as one thousand, so an eye for an eye as uncivilsed and unforgiving as that may sound makes sense to me. Normal law abiding people wouldn't have to dole out the punishment, we could leave that to other none violent crime commiting prisoners who could eran extra **** and the odd bevvy for the priviledge.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

Gazzer said:


> i get the feeling spandy that you are actualy devoid of feelings and emotions for this current society we live in, did mummy and daddy wrap you in so much cotton wool as a child that you cannot see life as it is for us normal people? just out of interest did you breast feed till the age of thirty to have such an outlook on life :roll:
> 
> get real bud and see how normal people have normal feelings in life and let off steam over topics like this, god i bet your wife/boyfriend or whatever you have has a real interesting evening being proved wrong continually by big words and that higher intellect you pretend to use.......but just make yourself look a complete knob i think lol
> 
> jim said it straight.......the cane at school did work and did me no harm as did the odd slap or punch from my father to keep me in line for society. ahhh now we come to it.......parents and why do they not teach the basic rules in life to the kids they pop out in the millions.


I thought you had me on ignore?? Couldn't stay away, eh?

I'm glad you chipped in though, because it's reminded me why there's no point discussing this. Grunting neanderthal morons will always be grunting neanderthal morons, won't they...

Those slaps and punches were to your head, right? :wink:


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## YoungOldUn (Apr 12, 2011)

BrianR said:


> I want to be totally honest in response to something Spandex said; I want to say that I totally understand his view and the civilised human being within me even agrees with it. For me we are not dealing with human beings, it is not about morals, it is not about whether it is right or wrong, I definately know that it will resolve little, the murdered person cannot be brought back, the family of the deceased cannot turn back the clock, the beaten old lady cannot be made to forget the terror.What is it about for me then? I remember alf garnet saying that when it comes to hooligans who beat up old folk that they should be branded 'hooligan' on the forehead, so that when good decemt people saw them, they could punch kick and beat the living shit out of them :lol: It is totally about revenge and what is wrong with that? If that gang of perverts who raped those young girls in Manchester were taken to one side and f#cked hard up the arse with a spade handle over and over again, then they may get close to feeling the pain shame and hurt they dealt out. If the f#ckers who beat up that old lady were taken to one side, stripped, bound, maced in the eyes so they couldnt see and then left a little while to wonder their fate screaming unheard ,before experiencing every blow they dealt out, then they may just learn something. The murderers, I dont want them to learn anything, they are beyond learning, I just want them gone forever so that one day my grandson, daughter, partner, mother, father, sister doesn't bump in to him. I want him so obliterated that in a world where there is so much to worry about, that I wouldn't have to worry about him. Spandex was right when he said that murderers have been around forever, but then again so have decent folk willing to stand up and be counted against the tyrrany and fear that this scum bring to our planet. Would it have been right to hang hitler? Stalin? Amin? You are dam right it would - to me one life is as important as one thousand, so an eye for an eye as uncivilsed and unforgiving as that may sound makes sense to me. Normal law abiding people wouldn't have to dole out the punishment, we could leave that to other none violent crime commiting prisoners who could eran extra **** and the odd bevvy for the priviledge.


Brian, I must admit that I don't always agree with what you have posted but in this case I think that you have spelt out my feelings very eloquently and straight to the point calling a spade a spade and in a far better way than I could.


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

FORK HANDLES........handles for forks not candles!!!!
brian & james i think you two guys are my soul mates now.........group hug 8)


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## burns (Jun 2, 2009)

YELLOW_TT said:


> Fred West Ian Brady Peter Sutcliff Harold Shipman to name but a few all 100% guilty absolutely guilty and totally evil how many millions have been spent keeping these people in the luxury of prison over the years and believe me it is luxury competed to how some of our OAP live


Fred West hanged himself before trial. And Harold Shipman hanged himself in January 2004. So they are costing the country nothing.

As for the rest, yes there is the argument you raise and I certainly don't condone the fact that prisoners live in better conditions than OAPs.

That said, have you ever considered the case of Derek Bentley? He was hanged for murder in 1953 and was granted a posthumous pardon in 1993.

Or how about the case of Robert Brown? Convicted of murder in 1977, receiving a life sentence with a minimum term of 15 years. His conviction was quashed in 2002, when he had served 25 years for a murder he did not commit.

Or the longest-serving English miscarriage of justice, Sean Hodgson, whose conviction was quashed in 2009 after he had served 27 years for a murder he did not commit?

Had those people been hanged, or otherwise dispatched, what would you then say to the families? "Sorry, but don't worry about it, there are lots of other people in prison who really are guilty"? Think how you would feel if it was your family member. It doesn't help the families of the victims either, because they have to go through the pain all over again, knowing that the murderer is still out there somewhere.

The problem is that no justice system is infallible. And whilst that remains the case, a death penalty cannot be a practical solution, because those types of mistakes can't be undone.


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

burns said:


> YELLOW_TT said:
> 
> 
> > Fred West Ian Brady Peter Sutcliff Harold Shipman to name but a few all 100% guilty absolutely guilty and totally evil how many millions have been spent keeping these people in the luxury of prison over the years and believe me it is luxury competed to how some of our OAP live
> ...


Totally see where you are coming from. You named three and I would guess there may be a few more. But there are thousands who did do the crime. As a result there are millions of people (victims and their families) who suffer their consequence. in the states some of these guys are on death row for 20 years before their sentence is reduced to life or the unlucky few suffer the full penalty. Here, they are out walking the streets in a few years, max 10. How can that be right? I wouldn't like to be a family member of someone incorrectly convicted, in the same way I wouldnt want to be a family member of someone murdered, raped or beaten. The chances of me being the family member of someone murdered are greater than me being the family member of someone incorrectly sentenced (so on that basis I would definately take my chances). The fact is we do say sorry to families every single day; sorry your gran has been battered, sorry your sister has been raped, sorry your son has been stabbed, sorry your daughter has been raped, battered, murdered, set on fire and dumped in the undergrowth (last week), sorry your 6 kids are burned to death (last week), sorry the plaque commemorating the death of your two little boys from an IRA bomb in Warrngton has been stolen, so some scum has £40 for his next fix. If saying sorry three or four times in 60 years is the price we pay for not saying sorry 100,000 times, then once again I will take my chances.


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

YoungOldUn said:


> BrianR said:
> 
> 
> > I want to be totally honest in response to something Spandex said; I want to say that I totally understand his view and the civilised human being within me even agrees with it. For me we are not dealing with human beings, it is not about morals, it is not about whether it is right or wrong, I definately know that it will resolve little, the murdered person cannot be brought back, the family of the deceased cannot turn back the clock, the beaten old lady cannot be made to forget the terror.What is it about for me then? I remember alf garnet saying that when it comes to hooligans who beat up old folk that they should be branded 'hooligan' on the forehead, so that when good decemt people saw them, they could punch kick and beat the living shit out of them :lol: It is totally about revenge and what is wrong with that? If that gang of perverts who raped those young girls in Manchester were taken to one side and f#cked hard up the arse with a spade handle over and over again, then they may get close to feeling the pain shame and hurt they dealt out. If the f#ckers who beat up that old lady were taken to one side, stripped, bound, maced in the eyes so they couldnt see and then left a little while to wonder their fate screaming unheard ,before experiencing every blow they dealt out, then they may just learn something. The murderers, I dont want them to learn anything, they are beyond learning, I just want them gone forever so that one day my grandson, daughter, partner, mother, father, sister doesn't bump in to him. I want him so obliterated that in a world where there is so much to worry about, that I wouldn't have to worry about him. Spandex was right when he said that murderers have been around forever, but then again so have decent folk willing to stand up and be counted against the tyrrany and fear that this scum bring to our planet. Would it have been right to hang hitler? Stalin? Amin? You are dam right it would - to me one life is as important as one thousand, so an eye for an eye as uncivilsed and unforgiving as that may sound makes sense to me. Normal law abiding people wouldn't have to dole out the punishment, we could leave that to other none violent crime commiting prisoners who could eran extra **** and the odd bevvy for the priviledge.
> ...


Thanks Youngoldun, I have always loved your jokes  I know my views area bit off the wall at times, but we have to be who we are and go with our beliefs, in the knowledge that most probably won't agree. Its the reason I like Gaz so much, because it takes guts to be different and controversial :?


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## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

YELLOW_TT said:


> I am sorry but someone who can commit in human acts does not deserve to be treated as a human being


Of course they do. If they're not, we're just as inhuman as they are.

Bottom line here - we're a bunch of animals and when push comes to shove we act like animals. We call others scum and then declare they should have whatever was done by them, to them. But which other piece of scum are you going to get to do that? You'd probably volunteer until it came to the point where you actually heard the screams and then, like any rational human, you'd stop and wonder what the proverbial you were doing.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

BrianR said:


> If saying sorry three or four times in 60 years is the price we pay for not saying sorry 100,000 times, then once again I will take my chances.


I don't understand how capital punishment will change the 100,000 apologies in your example though. Surely, you'll still have as many victims (because it's been shown that capital punishment doesn't mean a lower homicide rate) *and* you'll have the wrongfully executed people too. You just make everything worse.

As for your 'three or four times', I think you'd be surprised how often it happens. I don't have statistics for murder alone, but around 800 cases per year are overturned by the court of appeal (thousands more if you include the magistrates court). That number goes up to over 3,500 a year if you include sentences that are reduced after appeal (another thing you can't do if they've been executed). And you have to assume there are many more that aren't quashed, despite being innocent.

If the victims families were calling for blood, I could completely understand (even if I don't agree with it as a policy), but why is it that people who aren't remotely related with any murder victims are so desperate for revenge?


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## merlin c (Jan 25, 2012)

The bottom line on all these opinions is this,our justice system does not or is perceived by us the general public to fail in their duty to punish criminals in accordance to the severity and magnitude of their crimes. Death penalty, yes/no, a very personnel opinion best left for the victims or their families to answer, as for life sentences then make sure life means life unless the judge states that leniency should be shown as in extreme provocation cases such as with battered women who snap but does it in a calculated way so that the manslaughter charge cannot be brought.


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

Spandex said:


> BrianR said:
> 
> 
> > If saying sorry three or four times in 60 years is the price we pay for not saying sorry 100,000 times, then once again I will take my chances.
> ...


Yes, I dont understand the total numbers either and would be guessing, but it seems to me if that many cases are overturned then we can have faith in the system to do its job (a number of years generally transpires before the floor opens up and so time for appeals etc). I said earlier my reasoning isn't about morality or the fact that it will change anything, it is about revenge and making sure that the perps who do these things are not in a position to do it again (so even though I am not involved with those experiencing the loss, I can imagine what it must be like, I can also imagine how I would feel if it happened to one of mine. Along with your numbers I wonder about the many thousands who go to court and get away with it because of some slick lawyer, the thousands who never end up in court, or who use the law and human rights to their own advantage and are allowed to do so.

What we have currently doesn't work - violent crime is on the increase again - murders are up (I would love to know the rate of murder in the year hanging was outlawed versus now; I am guessing if the numbers now had been the same then, we would still be hanging them. So doing nothing isn't an option any longer, pretty soon we may all know how it feels, or will know someone who does (if this double dip continues, expect more riots in the streets; more old men trying to put out fires set upon and killed). Hear what you are saying about the families input, I am unsure if they even have a voice most of the time to say how they feel and what they want. The fact is even if they did, that would be totally disregarded as irrelevant. At least in the states they can attend parole hearings and request that the scum stays inside. Here they are given 20 years and serve 10 and then let out with a pat on the back to carry on (look at James Bulgers killers; child porn, drugs and back inside); the victims and their families are the only ones who truly serve a life sentence, ask James Bulgers mother who is campaigning for stronger punishment for child killers at this very moment. Ask Madeline McCanns parents how they would feel, what would they want to happen to the perps who did this to their little girl. All to often the rights of the innocent get overseen for the rights of the guilty and the straw appears likely to break the camels back some day soon.


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

merlin c said:


> The bottom line on all these opinions is this,our justice system does not or is perceived by us the general public to fail in their duty to punish criminals in accordance to the severity and magnitude of their crimes. Death penalty, yes/no, a very personnel opinion best left for the victims or their families to answer, as for life sentences then make sure life means life unless the judge states that leniency should be shown as in extreme provocation cases such as with battered women who snap but does it in a calculated way so that the manslaughter charge cannot be brought.


Agreed. Life for life. If we had that and never had to hear of these scum again, then that would be a strong compromise; as long as it was a hard life, not one playing pool or sat watching sky telly, drinking home brew and shooting up with shagging visits from the missus (all at our cost). Maybe an island in the hebrides, dropped off with a tent, box of matches, a bag of seeds and a wooden shovel. That, or they get a choice - the alternative is the noose and so a rope is supplied too. Iread a quote not long ago, it said something like 'you can measure the humanity of a nation by the way it treats its prisoners'. I understand that, and I think it is the very reason we have so many murders today;we have all become too sensitive, soft and forgiving.


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## YELLOW_TT (Feb 25, 2004)

Spandex said:


> YELLOW_TT said:
> 
> 
> > Spandex said:
> ...


This sums you no mention of sorrow for the family just straight back in to the spandex is always right show 
I have nothing more to say on the matter


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

There were 619 murders in the UK last year (almost 2 per day). 657 the year before. Here is some research I found around sentence served:

_On average, 61 people serving a mandatory life sentence for murder are released each year.
Murderers released in 1997 on life licence had served on average just over 14 years, while
others released on life licence served just over 13 years. Over the past decade 41 people
originally convicted of homicide (13 of whom were convicted for murder) have been
reconvicted of the same offence, seven while still in custody._

41 of the above re offended and murdered again - 41 more people who would still be here (mothers, fathers, sons, daughters, sisters, brothers) if they had been hanged or kept inside.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

Well, the homicide rate has been steadily increasing for a long time, so it is obviously higher than it was in 1965 when capital punishment was abolished, however, the homicide rate was increasing steadily before 1965 too, so it's not really clear that the abolishment had any impact whatsoever. There was no spike in homicide in the years following 1965 (in fact the rate in 1952 was higher than the years following 1965).

This has nothing to do with the rights of the guilty being prioritised over the rights of the innocent. The innocent don't have the right to define the punishment, and personally I think this is a good thing. These decisions should be impartial - that's why we have judges. If the victims (or families of victims) were involved in sentencing it would be chaos... We'd also have to build about 20 times more jails.


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## burns (Jun 2, 2009)

BrianR said:


> Here, they are out walking the streets in a few years, max 10. How can that be right?


Well, first of all, it isn't right; in fact it's absolute nonsense. I'd already set out in my post above, the cases of two people who had served 25 years and 27 years for murders they did not commit, so quite how you can say they're out in 10 years is beyond me. Unfortunately this is what happens when people who know nothing about the criminal justice system decide to debate the law.

When someone is convicted of murder, they receive a mandatory life sentence. No ifs, no buts. Life. The trial judge then sets the minimum term; that is the custodial sentence which must be served before that person can be considered for parole. Sentencing guidelines are in place, so that the starting points for murder, depending on the type of offence (ie child murder, particularly brutal, gang war, etc) are 15 years, 25 years, 30 years and a whole life order. The judge may adjust those figures up or down (usually up though) to reflect the actions and involvement of the particular defendant. The current average minimum term handed out is between 25 and 35 years. They must serve the WHOLE of that term before being considered for parole.

It is incredibly rare (I'm talking the kind of statistics in winning the lottery) for someone to be released on the date their minimum term expires; indeed many serve at least 5 or 10 years beyond their tariff expiry date. They must convince the Parole Board that they have admitted their offence, have addressed their offending behaviour, and are now suitable for release on licence; that is no easy task. I have represented people at parole hearings, and you cannot imagine the grilling that applicants go through. It really is an ordeal, and rightly so; the Board needs to be satisfied that the person is safe to be released into the community.

Following release, however, that is not the end of it. That person is on licence for the rest of their life, and can be recalled to prison at any time. There are rigid conditions included in that licence, and it is certainly not like living a normal life such as you and I enjoy. It is also a very difficult task to get back to normal life; many people are institutionalised by their experience in prison. There are all sorts of reasons why someone might be recalled to prison, and are too numerous to mention here. Some are incredibly minor, however, as the Parole Board are concerned with the RISK that something MIGHT happen, rather than whether it has. So, if someone had been drinking and then committed a murder following an argument in a pub, if he is then rumoured to have begun drinking whilst on licence (albeit 30 years later) he could be recalled. Likewise, being regularly 5 or 10 minutes late for probation appointments (because it shows a disregard for supervision). It really is very difficult not to be recalled over a period of years.

Miscarriages of justice are far more common than you are aware of. I listed three cases; there are plenty more.

There was no-one in this country who didn't feel for Sally Clark, the solicitor who was convicted in 1999 of murdering her two infant sons, when it was found in 2003 that Professor Sir Roy Meadow had miscalculated the statistics of two cot deaths occurring in the same family. She was a decent, middle class, solicitor who had the misfortune to lose two children to cot death. You mention in your post that you believe that you are more likely to be a victim of crime than a victim of a miscarriage of justice. I'm sure Sally Clark felt the same. That is, until she was convicted of murder in 1999. By the time her conviction was overturned in 2003, had the death penalty been available, it would have been too late. That poor woman, convicted of murder when her children had died of natural causes. How would you feel had she been dispatched from the world following her conviction? Or would you still feel content that the sacrifice of one is worthwhile?

Following on from the Sally Clark case, Angela Cannings also had her conviction overturned, as did Donna Anthony. Both had been the victims of Meadow's incompetence. Again, had the death penalty been available, these women wouldn't have been around to see their innocence proved.

Still happy to see the return of capital punishment?

My only issue with the current system is the abundance of televisions, Play Stations and gym equipment in prisons. It's true to say that prisoners live a better life than OAPs, and that is totally wrong. These luxuries should be stripped out of prisons, and there should be an emphasis on both punishment and rehabilitation. But 13 years of a Labour government brought you the current state of prisons, and now we have to live with it. There would be riots if the luxuries were taken away now after so many years. Look at the cost of the Strangeways riot: something like £55million. That was 22 years ago; imagine the cost today! Multiply that by the number of prisons in the country, and the country will be bankrupt!

So I'm afraid it looks as through we are stuck with the current state of affairs, like it or not.


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## merlin c (Jan 25, 2012)

Very eloquently put [smiley=thumbsup.gif] and also very true, a very well balanced response that I would say is nigh on impossible to contradict, but no doubt it will be.


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

merlin c said:


> Very eloquently put [smiley=thumbsup.gif] and also very true, a very well balanced response that I would say is nigh on impossible to contradict, but no doubt it will be.


Merlinc thanks for your input. This is a debate, if you only want to hear one side of this then I suggest that you stop reading now and pm the other members involved. Sure I am going to respond and refute, just as the other members have responded and refuted.

Back to the point and the great conversation taking place here. I hear what you say and can see your point, even if you cannot see mine. I doubt even under the old system if the lady wrongly accused of murdering her children would have received the death penalty and I for one certainly would not condone that, for that is a tragedy for all involved. But replace her with a paedophile kidnapping and killing a child then surely the circumstances are different. Taking a knife to a gang fight is different? Going armed to rob a shop is different. beating a pensioner is different. On the basis of the argument you propose, everyone should be given the benefit of the doubt, because I guess there is an element of doubt in every conviction that comes with a not guilty plea.

The stats I used relating to average time served are goverment stats and can be found here. so I am hoping my facts are indeed correct. http://www.parliament.uk/documents/comm ... 99-056.pdf

Here are some more facts. Since capital punishment ceased in 1957, murder in this country has doubled. In 1997 it was 14.1 murders per million population from a 1957 7.1 per million population. This does not suggest that capital punishment wasnt a detterrant. This doesn't suggest that the current system is working. The fact is that today we have no detterrant at all - criminals are laughing at the victims and the rest of us - relatively short sentencing (10 -20 -30 years, they are all to short) - criminal rights ahead of victims rights - murderers let out to murder again. These are the real facts that noone wants to look at, because they are too difficult to look at. Judges are confined by the laws that government give to them; government is elected by Joe public, so it is indeed our fault and our problem. The sooner we change the remit we give to judges the better.

It does not come easily for me to hold these views, but enough is enough. We have done it in the form of your argument and suggested way for 60 years and look at what we have ended up with. Surely you cannot defend a doubling of the murder rate? Is that the fault of people calling for retribution? or is that the fault of people taking a softly softly approach to crime? My way the right criminals would be dead or banged up forever. If that isn't a deterrant I don't know what would be.


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## merlin c (Jan 25, 2012)

Ok then, lets clear something up. I said the previous post was true and could not really be contradicted, that is still the case because you have not contradicted it you have just posted different facts and figures to support your point of view, you put forward true facts and figures which again are no doubt indisputable. The issue here is the spin we put on facts and figures to suit our own point of view or in this case, debate. Have we not learnt anything from Tony Blairs time in office where facts and figures were being arranged in such a way as too suggest "A" is the answer to a particular problem and not "B", As I said earlier here I agree with your facts and figures. Maybe capital punishment is a tool to use in the justice system, maybe not, but just because I complement the content and layout of a thread with reference to its facts and figures does not mean I agree or disagree, I believe some cases are so heinous that the death sentence should be used but I also believe that it should be used in exceptional cases only, not for every murder and I also believe the wishes of the victim or families should be considered before sentencing, it is after all they who have been wronged, not me. This is just my opinion and is not necessarily right or wrong, just different.


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

merlin c said:


> Ok then, lets clear something up. I said the previous post was true and could not really be contradicted, that is still the case because you have not contradicted it you have just posted different facts and figures to support your point of view, you put forward true facts and figures which again are no doubt indisputable. The issue here is the spin we put on facts and figures to suit our own point of view or in this case, debate. Have we not learnt anything from Tony Blairs time in office where facts and figures were being arranged in such a way as too suggest "A" is the answer to a particular problem and not "B", As I said earlier here I agree with your facts and figures. Maybe capital punishment is a tool to use in the justice system, maybe not, but just because I complement the content and layout of a thread with reference to its facts and figures does not mean I agree or disagree, I believe some cases are so heinous that the death sentence should be used but I also believe that it should be used in exceptional cases only, not for every murder and I also believe the wishes of the victim or families should be considered before sentencing, it is after all they who have been wronged, not me. This is just my opinion and is not necessarily right or wrong, just different.


Think it is a really strong opinion with a lot of merit and you are totally entitled to it. my comments related to the way you ended your previous post (which I felt suggested that I shouldn't respond, for me this is not about having the last word, it is not about winning either, it is about the debate. As I see it my points are not being refuted as your infer, they are just being faced up with a set of different facts too (so we are all guilty of doing that).

The facts are that murder has doubled. If we wait another 10 years and do nothing, we know that a minimum of 7000 more people will be murdered here. There will always be rough justice, I simply dont think that that is enough of a reason to do nothing. I respect yours and the other contributors right to believe differently though. All said and done, our conversations here will likely change nothing  Going to take a step back for a while now and see what other members think. Have a great weekend.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

BrianR said:


> Since capital punishment ceased in 1957, murder in this country has doubled. In 1997 it was 14.1 murders per million population from a 1957 7.1 per million population. This does not suggest that capital punishment wasnt a detterrant.


Capital punishment was abolished in 1965, and the homicide rate was climbing slowly before this happened. In 1957, the law was changed to restrict the types of murder which could carry the death penalty (reducing executions to around a quarter of the pre-1957 yearly average) and the rate of change in the homicide rate wasn't affected. In fact, in the late 80's, the annual number of murders in Britain was around half the number of murders per year in the early sixties (before capital punishment was abolished).

Most studies I've read have concluded that there is no evidence that capital punishment is more effective than lengthy jail sentences as a deterrent.


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## merlin c (Jan 25, 2012)

BrianR said:


> merlin c said:
> 
> 
> > Ok then, lets clear something up. I said the previous post was true and could not really be contradicted, that is still the case because you have not contradicted it you have just posted different facts and figures to support your point of view, you put forward true facts and figures which again are no doubt indisputable. The issue here is the spin we put on facts and figures to suit our own point of view or in this case, debate. Have we not learnt anything from Tony Blairs time in office where facts and figures were being arranged in such a way as too suggest "A" is the answer to a particular problem and not "B", As I said earlier here I agree with your facts and figures. Maybe capital punishment is a tool to use in the justice system, maybe not, but just because I complement the content and layout of a thread with reference to its facts and figures does not mean I agree or disagree, I believe some cases are so heinous that the death sentence should be used but I also believe that it should be used in exceptional cases only, not for every murder and I also believe the wishes of the victim or families should be considered before sentencing, it is after all they who have been wronged, not me. This is just my opinion and is not necessarily right or wrong, just different.
> ...


Cheers Brian, its good to read other opinions other than ones own, a lot of enlightenment has come from such debates, I'm with you now though, off down the pub to watch the Heinekin rugby cup final, as long as this West ham v Blackpool game does not go into extra time which it will if it stays at 1-1......Have a good one...Steve [smiley=thumbsup.gif]


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

Spandex said:


> BrianR said:
> 
> 
> > Since capital punishment ceased in 1957, murder in this country has doubled. In 1997 it was 14.1 murders per million population from a 1957 7.1 per million population. This does not suggest that capital punishment wasnt a detterrant.
> ...


Huge debate. Going round in circles now methinks  Lengthy jail sentences don't appear to exist for most muderers Spandex as my earlier mail with the government facts appeared to support. I guess what i think of as a short sentence (14 years) will probably be seen by some as quite long. I will now tale a step back in th hope that others will expand the debat further. Have a great weekend.


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

i have to wonder how many criminals convictions got squashed due to some technical oversight picked up at a later time or never got convicted at all due to the same events........i hear what you say burnsy and agree with a heck of a lot of it, however doing work for the police i hear all sorts on this and despite everyone knowing a certain person done it they cannot prove it 100% due to a technical or clerical fuck up by an over worked copper........very frustrating for them at times i bet.


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## burns (Jun 2, 2009)

If you asked me about corporal punishment, I have a very different stance. I think the birch would be a great idea in today's disaffected society. Too many are ambivalent to crime and a great many of those who commit crime consider a jail term as an occupational hazard. The birch might make them think twice! Imagine, "I'm not doing that again - it bloody hurt last time!"

Capital punishment is not the answer, because no-one ever thinks it will happen to them, and when we get it wrong, there's no going back. Corporal punishment on the other hand...genius idea methinks!


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

burns said:


> If you asked me about corporal punishment, I have a very different stance. I think the birch would be a great idea in today's disaffected society. Too many are ambivalent to crime and a great many of those who commit crime consider a jail term as an occupational hazard. The birch might make them think twice! Imagine, "I'm not doing that again - it bloody hurt last time!"
> 
> Capital punishment is not the answer, because no-one ever thinks it will happen to them, and when we get it wrong, there's no going back. Corporal punishment on the other hand...genius idea methinks!


agreed hun totally.......but i am sure spandy will say its inhuman and degrading lol


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

Spandex said:


> Gazzer said:
> 
> 
> > i get the feeling spandy that you are actualy devoid of feelings and emotions for this current society we live in, did mummy and daddy wrap you in so much cotton wool as a child that you cannot see life as it is for us normal people? just out of interest did you breast feed till the age of thirty to have such an outlook on life :roll:
> ...


yes i grew up in a very strict household spanders and my father never gave an inch to any of us kids (ex military colour seargent) you keep labelling me as neanderthal and that would mean i am backwards in my thought process in life. you know me not sir......
i took 10k out of our overpaid mortgage fund and bought the assets of a failed business and re-opened it as mine. that is now turning over 200k a year at 35% profit margin. i then bought out another company and turned that around due to extremely hard work and dedication to my clients. that company now does over 350k a year....all of this in a recession recovery. i live in regency cheltenham and as anyone who knows it will tell you it is an extremely rich area of the cotswolds.

here is my company facebook page 
http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Cotsw ... 1209064155

here is my best of gloucester page with testimonials to our work including my conduct.......
http://www.thebestof.co.uk/local/glouce ... orge/78970

you have me right in many respects spandy i am uneducated as my posts many times clearly show i am sure of that. a neanderthal moron hmmm dont think so tbh bud, i just call it as i see it and once i know i am right i will never back off even if it means violence will happen. so sit behind your screen and tell folks they are wrong as humans and how they live their lives according to god spandy's views.
Rich hit on something a while ago when he asked if you were of non white in skin colour, and i again now ask as it just seems as if you are hiding behind a screen due to feeling inferior in the uk. does it make you feel big to sit and judge everyone else on here?
i personally am driving to a tt event tomorrow despite spending two days in hospital recently after a balcony collapsed and i had mutiple cuts to my mouth and lost several teeth plus broken ones to get sorted. i can only talk with a lisp and yet have no fear of meeting folks tomorrow as they are normal down to earth good people. fancy popping along or is hiding behind a screen your limit? come on lets share a table and hace a coffee and put all of this behind us bud.

i do not need to justify myself to you tbh, but i lay it on the line on who am what i am in life. who and what is spandy? tell us so we can maybe understand the angle from life you are coming from......over to you sir.....waiting lol


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## YoungOldUn (Apr 12, 2011)

burns said:


> If you asked me about corporal punishment, I have a very different stance. I think the birch would be a great idea in today's disaffected society. Too many are ambivalent to crime and a great many of those who commit crime consider a jail term as an occupational hazard. The birch might make them think twice! Imagine, "I'm not doing that again - it bloody hurt last time!"
> 
> Capital punishment is not the answer, because no-one ever thinks it will happen to them, and when we get it wrong, there's no going back. Corporal punishment on the other hand...genius idea methinks!


This has always been my argument. Corporal punishment should never have been abolished for the courts or for schools, as I stated early on in this thread.

I agree with Brian that capital punishment should be available as a sentence for the courts to use in special circumstances where there is irrefutable proof of guilt i.e. DNA evidence plus a predetermined number of 'other' pieces of evidence, so as not to rely upon a single one.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

Gazzer said:


> burns said:
> 
> 
> > If you asked me about corporal punishment, I have a very different stance. I think the birch would be a great idea in today's disaffected society. Too many are ambivalent to crime and a great many of those who commit crime consider a jail term as an occupational hazard. The birch might make them think twice! Imagine, "I'm not doing that again - it bloody hurt last time!"
> ...


I don't really agree with the birch as punishment, although not for the reasons Einstein predicted above. I just don't actually think it's as much of a deterrent as being in prison. Sure, it will hurt, but once it's done, it's done.


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

YoungOldUn said:


> burns said:
> 
> 
> > If you asked me about corporal punishment, I have a very different stance. I think the birch would be a great idea in today's disaffected society. Too many are ambivalent to crime and a great many of those who commit crime consider a jail term as an occupational hazard. The birch might make them think twice! Imagine, "I'm not doing that again - it bloody hurt last time!"
> ...


good post jim and well in meaning i feel bud.


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

Spandex said:


> Gazzer said:
> 
> 
> > burns said:
> ...


see here we go again spandy......you have to disagree with everything said on here by anyone.

you know bugger all about the streets and having cred do you!!! to get caught for something wrong and publicly birched is a major major embarrasment to these youngsters as they are hard in the gang but will cry like a baby when this happens trust me i have seen it many times. so to say Einstein as in me.....you just belittle the thought process you are going through. as now you are just being abusive and non productive to me commenting on burns post. little cracks appearing in that holyier than thou fasade you pretend to hide behind lol


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

Gazzer said:


> see here we go again spandy......you have to disagree with everything said on here by anyone.
> 
> you know bugger all about the streets and having cred do you!!! to get caught for something wrong and publicly birched is a major major embarrasment to these youngsters as they are hard in the gang but will cry like a baby when this happens trust me i have seen it many times. so to say Einstein as in me.....you just belittle the thought process you are going through. as now you are just being abusive and non productive to me commenting on burns post. little cracks appearing in that holyier than thou fasade you pretend to hide behind lol


It's true that I try to disagree with anything you say, mainly because I assume that the chances of you accidentally getting something right are so infinitesimally small, it's just not worth the risk of agreeing with you. And sorry, old man, but *you* know bugger all about youngsters and 'cred' (I think they stopped calling it that a few decades ago). Not that this is relevant anyway, because most serious crime isn't committed by kids in gangs and corporal punishment is hardly going to be broadcast on BBC1 for our entertainment.

My post was abusive towards you?? Surely it was less abusive than you are in almost every post you make to me? Come on Gaz, don't get sensitive on me now... It's just a joking reference to your sub-normal IQ.

Anyway, can't you go back to ignoring me? It made us both happier...


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## merlin c (Jan 25, 2012)

Sorry Gazzer, but a pre requisite of being right is most certainly not being rich, this statement by you " i just call it as i see it and once i know i am right i will never back off even if it means violence will happen" how an earth do you know your right "NO"......Sorry, you'll use violence to back up your point, you just said it so don't deny it.......... you have opinions which were valid until you think your "rich and bully boy statement" gives you an advantage, that's the problem in a nutshell " I'm richer and tougher than you and I am from a poor background so I must be right,,,,,,,,,,,, at least your well balanced... :? [smiley=thumbsdown.gif]

AND FINALLY FOR SPANDEX AND GAZ. There is no right or wrong here but there is most certainly a requirement for both of you to not be so personal and aggressive to each other, if you don't respect each other's opinion then don't post any more threads that might inflame the current disagreement, shut up. I learnt the hard way, don't make my mistake.


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

merlin c said:


> Sorry Gazzer, but a pre requisite of being right is most certainly not being rich, this statement by you " i just call it as i see it and once i know i am right i will never back off even if it means violence will happen" how an earth do you know your right "NO"......Sorry, you'll use violence to back up your point, you just said it so don't deny it.......... you have opinions which were valid until you think your "rich and bully boy statement" gives you an advantage, that's the problem in a nutshell " I'm richer and tougher than you and I am from a poor background so I must be right,,,,,,,,,,,, at least your well balanced... :? [smiley=thumbsdown.gif]
> 
> AND FINALLY FOR SPANDEX AND GAZ. There is no right or wrong here but there is most certainly a requirement for both of you to not be so personal and aggressive to each other, if you don't respect each other's opinion then don't post any more threads that might inflame the current disagreement, shut up. I learnt the hard way, don't make my mistake.


i agree merlin with your post, it does seem that noddy and i are at logger heads. will back off and not post on this one again, i just wish he would stop insisting on posting on every topic i do just to annoy me tbh bud.


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## merlin c (Jan 25, 2012)

Gazzer said:


> merlin c said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry Gazzer, but a pre requisite of being right is most certainly not being rich, this statement by you " i just call it as i see it and once i know i am right i will never back off even if it means violence will happen" how an earth do you know your right "NO"......Sorry, you'll use violence to back up your point, you just said it so don't deny it.......... you have opinions which were valid until you think your "rich and bully boy statement" gives you an advantage, that's the problem in a nutshell " I'm richer and tougher than you and I am from a poor background so I must be right,,,,,,,,,,,, at least your well balanced... :? [smiley=thumbsdown.gif]
> ...


Nice one Gazzer, its a new day so lets all enjoy it, have a good one......... [smiley=thumbsup.gif]


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

Gazzer said:


> i just wish he would stop insisting on posting on every topic i do just to annoy me tbh bud.


Get over yourself Gaz. I posted in this thread before you did. Go park your ego somewhere else.


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## STTink (Jun 28, 2011)

Spandex said:


> Gazzer said:
> 
> 
> > i just wish he would stop insisting on posting on every topic i do just to annoy me tbh bud.
> ...


One day the two of you will realise that arguing the point is far more satisfying that arguing with the person. One of you understands this already, the other one just doesn't understand full stop. 
As for the birch, anybody that's had a tattoo on their back will agree given the choice a 9" x 9" inking of Dale Winton is a better choice than 12 months smelling another human beings farts in a 10' x 6'.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

STTink said:


> One of you understands this already, the other one just doesn't understand full stops.


Fixed it for you


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## STTink (Jun 28, 2011)

Spandex said:


> STTink said:
> 
> 
> > One of you understands this already, the other one just doesn't understand full stops.
> ...


I think his literacy issues are the least of his problems.


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

Feels a bit like ganging up tbh. Gaz openly admits that his grammer isn't the best and to keep referring to it feels like a bit of a power trip. This has gone way off topic now, so I for one will move on from here.


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## burns (Jun 2, 2009)

BrianR said:


> Feels a bit like ganging up tbh. Gaz openly admits that his grammer isn't the best and to keep referring to it feels like a bit of a power trip. This has gone way off topic now, so I for one will move on from here.


+1. Bullying is never appropriate.


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## STTink (Jun 28, 2011)

Pretty sure only one person referred to his grammar and to be honest I don't consider one persons comments "ganging up". From personal experience Gazzer digs holes deep enough without bringing his spelling into question.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

Ok, I'm not posting in here again then, but for the record, I could easily dig up numerous of posts from Gaz where he personally attacks me, directs various swear words at me and generally breaks any number of forum rules. There's a good reason why he's always having to post up apologies to people.

I'm old enough and thick skinned enough to let all that slide, but I also assume that if someone is up for dishing it out, they're up for taking it too, so my conscience is clear as far as 'bullying' goes.


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

STTink said:


> Pretty sure only one person referred to his grammar and to be honest I don't consider one persons comments "ganging up". From personal experience Gazzer digs holes deep enough without bringing his spelling into question.


dont i ever.......but once the mess up is realised always first to appologise. i only had a go at spandy as i felt he was always attacking me..........best form of defence is and all of that. wb STTink


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## STTink (Jun 28, 2011)

I'm not "back" perse. Looking on the cars for sale as i'm not far off having enough together to buy something. Just thought i'd post in here as it seemed a little like Groundhog Day. Same argument, same people, just a different thread header. Entertaining though in between the hypocrisy.


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

STTink said:


> I'm not "back" perse. Looking on the cars for sale as i'm not far off having enough together to buy something. Just thought i'd post in here as it seemed a little like Groundhog Day. Same argument, same people, just a different thread header. Entertaining though in between the hypocrisy.


however it is.....good to see you on here in my personal opinion


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

Spandex said:


> Ok, I'm not posting in here again then, but for the record, I could easily dig up numerous of posts from Gaz where he personally attacks me, directs various swear words at me and generally breaks any number of forum rules. There's a good reason why he's always having to post up apologies to people.
> 
> I'm old enough and thick skinned enough to let all that slide, but I also assume that if someone is up for dishing it out, they're up for taking it too, so my conscience is clear as far as 'bullying' goes.


I agree, there is fault on both sides. I can empathise with it because I have been caught up in it myself at times (as I am sure everyone knows). I am no mediator but what would it take for Spandex and Gazzer to bury the proverbial hatchet? Both in my view have loads to offer this place and do so ongoing.

After saying that I am not sure how I would go about burying the hatchet with Toshiba (oh yes I do :lol: Really though Tosh if you are reading, I have moved on now and I hope you have too, right and wrong on both sides.


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## YoungOldUn (Apr 12, 2011)

BrianR said:


> I agree, there is fault on both sides. I can empathise with it because I have been caught up in it myself at times (as I am sure everyone knows). I am no mediator but what would it take for Spandex and Gazzer to bury the proverbial hatchet? Both in my view have loads to offer this place and do so ongoing.
> 
> After saying that I am not sure how I would go about burying the hatchet with Toshiba (oh yes I do :lol: Really though Tosh if you are reading, I have moved on now and I hope you have too, right and wrong on both sides.


+1 I agree Brian. I find it uncomfortable when a disagreement about a subject turns into personal attacks, I know it is the 'Flame Room' but even here I don't think personal attacks should be made especially when as you say all parties involved have a lot to offer.


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