# Another shining example why not to buy a bmw..



## TTSPORT666 (Dec 1, 2011)

quattro rules.. 

Damien.


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

notice it was on the outside of a left bend,, obv just given it a little too much coming out of the corner .. :lol: :roll:


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## Hark (Aug 23, 2007)

Exciting video.... -_- lol


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## ag (Sep 12, 2002)

"Another shining example why not to buy a bmw."

20 years ago, perhaps. Most of the people on this forum hadn't been born when those two cars rolled of the production line. :lol:


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

hmmm... So let me get this straight:

Audi - Safe for 1 week per year and boring for the rest.
BMW - Work from home for one week per year and have fun for the rest.

Err, well done Audi.


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## neilc (Aug 8, 2011)

Spandex said:


> hmmm... So let me get this straight:
> 
> Audi - Safe for 1 week per year and boring for the rest.
> BMW - Work from home for one week per year and have fun for the rest.
> ...


Not one to argue but I have to say never seen all the fuss about BMW , having driven many hundreds of them over the years , only two have impressed and they were both M3's , but throw into the equation rain or cold weather and they are not fun but dangerous in the wrong hands.

Everyone harps on about oversteer this and steering feel that , but it's a proven fact that over 80% of BMW drivers don't even know their car is RWD :roll: and wouldn't know what to do with oversteer other than to call the AA when they were upside down in a ditch.


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## Matt B (Apr 8, 2007)

I like my BMW - and I like my TT. 
And I do know its rear wheel drive - its fun


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

neilc said:


> Everyone harps on about oversteer this and steering feel that , but it's a proven fact that over 80% of BMW drivers don't even know their car is RWD :roll: and wouldn't know what to do with oversteer other than to call the AA when they were upside down in a ditch.


Then 80% of BMW owners should probably buy an Audi. I'm more interested in how it feels to drive to *me * though, not them.

When I think of rear wheel drive, I don't think of oversteer, or doughnuts in Tescos car park, I just like the ability to tune out the initial understeer using the throttle. Rear wheel drive can actually add grip in a corner, rather than just remove it, as it allows you to balance the car through the turn. This is why people talk about driver involvement. It's one more thing you have under your control that 4wd systems often take away from you.


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## neilc (Aug 8, 2011)

Matt B said:


> I like my BMW - and I like my TT.
> And I do know its rear wheel drive - its fun


Oh I am sure you do Matt , but it's hilarious when I deal with customers sometimes and they just have no idea. And I also know that BMW steering feel is better than pretty much all Audi's but in the real world with just your average driver does it matter. :?

Not so sure , and in reality most drivers just want a car that goes round corners in any weather safely.


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## neilc (Aug 8, 2011)

Spandex said:


> neilc said:
> 
> 
> > Everyone harps on about oversteer this and steering feel that , but it's a proven fact that over 80% of BMW drivers don't even know their car is RWD :roll: and wouldn't know what to do with oversteer other than to call the AA when they were upside down in a ditch.
> ...


Oh yes I totally agree about feel , it's something that is gradually being dialed out of most modern cars , even the new 911 using electric steering for instance with virtually no real feel. I did recently drive a V8 M3 E90 and was suitably impressed with the steering it has to be said , it felt more analogue than my RS for sure. My only just departed Clio Trophy also had incredible steering feel and you truly felt part of the steering rack rather than to an electrical sensor.

But as mentioned earlier , I do believe that the vast majority of BMW or any RWD car owners would have no idea that RWD is meant to be more fun or know what to with oversteer or tuning out understeer.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

neilc said:


> But as mentioned earlier , I do believe that the vast majority of BMW or any RWD car owners would have no idea that RWD is meant to be more fun or know what to with oversteer or tuning out understeer.


Saying that a particular car brand is great for people who don't care about cars and don't know how to drive to the conditions is hardly a glowing recommendation though...

I'd like to try the new 911, as the steering in my old 996 was an absolute revelation. I've read some positive reviews of the EPAS in the 991, but I find it hard to believe they can recreate that steering feel as accurately as you get from the older cars.


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## neilc (Aug 8, 2011)

Not sure if this is a sad fact or not but when you drive a car like mine or any modern electrically steered vehicle and then drive a car like a 996 all of a sudden they feel very old fashioned. As we all drive EPAS vehicles these then become the norm and cars with true feel like the 996 will seem an oddity. Sad but true.

But much like you I hanker after more feel and it says a lot that after driving thousands of cars one of my all time favourites is the humble Ford Puma 1.7 , an amazing example of almost perfect steering and overall dynamics all accomplished at slowish speeds. Sometimes less is more.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

I remember my first drive of a 996... I genuinely thought there was something wrong with the brakes, as I was so used to over-servo'd systems, where pedal travel rather than pedal pressure is what governs braking force.


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## Hark (Aug 23, 2007)

Wish I had a BMW for my drive home tonight in the rain, golf is soooo dull. Moves about a bit on cheap tyres but not in anyway that one would consider fun.


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## ag (Sep 12, 2002)

The whole subject of front versus rear wheel drive for traction in the snow is based on old technology. Modern cars with traction control, winter programs on auto gearboxes and differing tyres mean that the fwd / rwd aspect becomes just another characteristic. Of my recent cars an Audi A4 fwd with snow tyres was best, by far. This was followed, in order by E60 5 series saloon, F11 5 series auto estate, Mini Diesel, Volvo V50 diesel, Mercedes C250CDi Sport Estate. All bar the Audi and Mercedes were on normal tyres. The Audi had snow tyres, the Merc winter tyres. The Audi was superb, the Merc virtually undriveable on anything but smooth, dry roads, even rain made it almost uncontrollable. If I had only driven the Merc I would have said that RWD is rubbish in the snow, the two 5 series BMWs showed me that it isn't!

P.S. Alot of the snow driving was at 1000m altitude in France visiting in-laws on a regular basis, so all the cars have had a proper work out, with the exeption of the Mini.


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## CWM3 (Mar 4, 2012)

Spandex said:


> I remember my first drive of a 996... I genuinely thought there was something wrong with the brakes, as I was so used to over-servo'd systems, where pedal travel rather than pedal pressure is what governs braking force.


lol our 996 feels like that every time you jump into it, but they work progressively and strongly, and as for the steering feel 
and feedback, its the sort of thing that Audi chassis engineers only dream about but cannot achieve


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

I remember reading somewhere that your muscles can modulate the amount of force they apply much more accurately than they can modulate actual movement. This is why brakes should have very little travel, and the force applied to the pads should be proportionate to the force applied to the pedal, not proportionate to the movement of the pedal.

This is how the brakes were set up in the 911. When the pedal hardly moves as you apply pressure to it, it feels similar to when the power assist fails in a normal car (I wish I didn't know how that felt), but the control it gives you is stunning once you're used to it.


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## Stev443 (Oct 6, 2013)

Lol good vid have owned many BMs and have one at the mo just looking for a TT and the rear wheel drive is good fun can be iffy in the snow but so can Fwd and even a four wheel drive won't help once you get into trouble at times too drive one at work and off road in the snow if your silly nothing helps


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## kmpowell (May 6, 2002)

neilc said:


> it's a proven fact that over 80% of BMW drivers don't even know their car is RWD :roll:


Care to share where that stereotypical bullshit of a fact is 'proven'...?


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## V6RUL (May 28, 2009)

I have a 535d for my commute to Aberdeen and I'm waiting for the snow.
Steve


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## jamman (May 6, 2002)

kmpowell said:


> neilc said:
> 
> 
> > it's a proven fact that over 80% of BMW drivers don't even know their car is RWD :roll:
> ...


1 - 0

http://www.bimmerfile.com/2010/03/23/bm ... k-its-fwd/


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## kmpowell (May 6, 2002)

jamman said:


> kmpowell said:
> 
> 
> > neilc said:
> ...


Hardly 1-0, not unless 1 series owners account for 100% of BMW drivers...


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

i would not like to give % figures , but i suspect most people on the road dont know what wheels drive their cars


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## neilc (Aug 8, 2011)

kmpowell said:


> neilc said:
> 
> 
> > it's a proven fact that over 80% of BMW drivers don't even know their car is RWD :roll:
> ...


I was told this information by Richard Hudson the Marketing director of BMW UK at a automotive dinner I attended , the figures were based upon BMW UK's own research.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

neilc said:


> I was told this information by Richard Hudson the Marketing director of BMW UK at a automotive dinner I attended , the figures were based upon BMW UK's own research.


I would be absolutely stunned if the figure for all BMWs was *exactly the same* as the figure for the 1 series alone (as given in BMWs own study). It sounds to me like the marketing director just quoted a figure that was being bandied around at the time without realising exactly what it referred to.


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## neilc (Aug 8, 2011)

Maybe , but I'm pretty sure he knows his job and although I can't confirm or deny the factuality of what he said , all I know is that having personally worked for some major motor manufacturers these type of polls are a regular occurrence using the databases of that particular manufacturer. For instance to find out the average age of buyers etc etc


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## jamman (May 6, 2002)

kmpowell said:


> jamman said:
> 
> 
> > 1 - 0
> ...


Yep 1-0 :wink:

80% stupid people + 10% really stupid people (stockbrokers etc) + 10% drug dealers


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

OK,, it was a few years ago now, but at a motor show where the new ( then ) Toyota Celica , the first front wheel drive one, was being introduced, i asked the salesman if it was front or rear w/d and he said that he did not know,, i said well have a look underneath and he replied that he would not know what to look for,, so i looked and told him that it was fwd so i would not be buying one...,, he replied,, does it matter ? :roll:


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

jamman said:


> Yep 1-0 :wink:
> 
> 80% stupid people + 10% really stupid people (stockbrokers etc) + 10% drug dealers


Drug dealers can be stupid too you know... It's times like this you really need a Venn diagram.


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## Dance171 (Feb 8, 2009)

Highly doubt all the other marques would fall under that 80% that the 1 series does guys in particular I'd expect much more knowledge from an M owner as most of them are enthusiasts


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## CWM3 (Mar 4, 2012)

The reality is simple, most people buy cars to get from A to B, are not car enthusiasts and have zero mechanical knowledge.

Most drivers could not care where the wheels are driven from as long as it starts and stops when they want it to.

Just the same as most drivers would not have a clue what understeer and oversteer feels like until they get into trouble, and even then probably have no idea why they got into trouble.

The simple fact why 1 series, A1s, A class sell so many, is that people are buying into a brand/badge culture more than the dynamics of the vehicle, they have bought in a buyer that previously could not afford that marque, and if it then builds brand loyality, they have a chance of locking them in and selling further product over time. 
If it was not for that culture certain sheds like X1s and the like would not have been conceived and built, the marketing men are the stars of the car industry, and as long as the badge carries so much status then they will keep churning out more and more derivatives of the same platform,


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## leon1984 (Oct 7, 2010)

I have a 3.0 Z4, and it isn't half as fun round corners as my old 2.0TFSI FWD TT.... feels heavy, always wants to understeer and whilst it's easy to sit and type like some driving god on an internet forum - oversteer, on a road hardly wider than my car which costs upwards of £35k that I don't really want to be putting in a ditch isn't an option.

People harp on about RWD like they can actually get the best out of it on their way to work :lol: Reality is, with the driving ability of the majority of car enthusiasts, they would be far quicker in a FWD with tons of grip.


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## GalleyTeapot (Oct 21, 2013)

No need to knock the Beemers, 330 Coupe was one of the best cars i had, admittedly I've not got my hands on a TT yet, still looking.


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## leon1984 (Oct 7, 2010)

GalleyTeapot said:


> No need to knock the Beemers, 330 Coupe was one of the best cars i had, admittedly I've not got my hands on a TT yet, still looking.


E46 I bet? mate had a 330 clubsport which was brilliant, he now has a 335i of the newer shape and it is no where near as good


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## Hark (Aug 23, 2007)

leon1984 said:


> I have a 3.0 Z4, and it isn't half as fun round corners as my old 2.0TFSI FWD TT....


Troll? Possibly? But ill bite.

Wtf are you on about lol

I can't even begin to fathom how that could be true. Bored to the back teeth with my fwd shopping cart. Z4 used to be great fun to drive. I could almost believe you were serious if you'd said Quattro, but fwd. really?


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## leon1984 (Oct 7, 2010)

Hark said:


> leon1984 said:
> 
> 
> > I have a 3.0 Z4, and it isn't half as fun round corners as my old 2.0TFSI FWD TT....
> ...


why can't you fathom to believe a TT could be more fun?

Z4 is far too firm, crashy suspension, 19" wheels with run flats - can't do corners and bumps at the same time it skips across the road yards at a time. It is also heavy (folding metal hard top) loves to understeer, brakes are weak.

My FWD TT was light, almost perfect ride (S-Line on standard 18's) and the front end grip was brilliant, almost as quick in the wet. Quattro doesn't make a car more fun either, drove both back to back and the FWD was the better handling car.


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## jamman (May 6, 2002)

Hark he must be drinking :wink:

I had the misfortune to drive a pile of festering shite 2.0 FWD Mk2 TT a few hundred miles home from ADI and hated every metre.

ESP.... ESP ESP FFS nice engine but that's it.

As for driving the FWD and Quattro back to back an prefering the FWD.... course you did :roll:


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## leon1984 (Oct 7, 2010)

ha ha does make me laugh. Please explain to me if you can, how a heavier car that runs full time FWD unless it is struggling for traction will turn in and corner faster than a lighter FWD version of the same car (with the same engine). It doesn't.

When ordering, I had the choice of a FWD S Line with some options, or a quattro in basic S Line spec so I drove both back to back. Read some reviews, I am not alone in my thinking.


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## Hark (Aug 23, 2007)

Run flats and 19'' wheels do not a car make...

Maybe spec 18s next time, run standard tyres and make a proper comparison. Only driven moms mk2 TT round the block (my tt was a mk1 225) but unless the new Z4 is a country mile from my old Z4M I'm struggling within it tbh.

Quick google surprised me how heavy it was though! Stupid heavy for a sports car, but still only 20kg between it and the TT. Maybe its the distribution that felt different.


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## Hark (Aug 23, 2007)

Agree that fwd will handle better on a warm dry day, but rwd would be even better. Quattro for days like today.


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## leon1984 (Oct 7, 2010)

Hark said:


> Run flats and 19'' wheels do not a car make...
> 
> Maybe spec 18s next time, run standard tyres and make a proper comparison. Only driven moms mk2 TT round the block (my tt was a mk1 225) but unless the new Z4 is a country mile from my old Z4M I'm struggling within it tbh.
> 
> Quick google surprised me how heavy it was though! Stupid heavy for a sports car, but still only 20kg between it and the TT. Maybe its the distribution that felt different.


I picked mine up brand new but not at a BMW dealer, they had shipped all the 3.0 engine versions out to specialists to make way for the newer 4 pot turbo engine versions. I do 6k miles a year and wanted noise and convertible so preferred the 3.0.

my Z4 weighs 1490, FWD TT coupe is 1265.... 225kg is a lot, makes a big difference and you can feel it. More of a nice spec'd tourer than a sports car


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## GalleyTeapot (Oct 21, 2013)

leon1984 said:


> GalleyTeapot said:
> 
> 
> > No need to knock the Beemers, 330 Coupe was one of the best cars i had, admittedly I've not got my hands on a TT yet, still looking.
> ...


Yes pre-facelift E46, fantastic car.


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## Hark (Aug 23, 2007)

Didn't realise new Z4 was such a lardy arse. Still think the comparison is naff but at least your happy with what you have now I guess.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

I've only driven (and owned) the old Z4 and Mk1 TT, but I find it hard to believe they've managed to completely reverse the handling of both cars. Sure, the TT was more comfortable and the Z4 wasn't as nice a place to be if you just wanted to cruise around, but when it came to handling the Z4 was in a different league.

Anyway, in an attempt to free up the money that's sitting outside my flat not being used (I'm on public transport during the week now) I'm changing my 4x4 for an old E39 540i... Bring on the snow... :wink:


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## zltm089 (Jul 27, 2009)

Hark said:


> Run flats and 19'' wheels do not a car make...
> 
> .


This!!!! ....

Plus 1 million.


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## zltm089 (Jul 27, 2009)

Spandex said:


> hmmm... So let me get this straight:
> 
> Audi - Safe for 1 week per year and boring for the rest.
> BMW - Work from home for one week per year and have fun for the rest.
> ...


 :lol:


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