# R8 depreciation???



## Scotty225 (Feb 7, 2008)

Anyone have any thoughts and/or suggestions on how much an R8 will cost in 5 years time?

Is it worth starting to save now? 

Scotty225


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

I can heartily recommend one 

Demand will always, I hope, be strong... it is a low volume car and I expect it will go down in history as a 'great'.

Time will tell if a 5yr old one is worth more or less than the equivalent 911... I would guess 'more', simply through rarity, but Porsche have always been the default car in this segment and its competitors have always fared badly.

Perhaps not this time, though...


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## Scotty225 (Feb 7, 2008)

Ahhhhhh you lucky person :wink:

I would love one but won't be happening for a while yet.

Scotty225


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## ResB (Apr 17, 2005)

jampott said:


> I can heartily recommend one
> 
> Demand will always, I hope, be strong... it is a low volume car and I expect it will go down in history as a 'great'.
> 
> ...


Agreed, the 911 is losing bucket loads, unless it's a GT3 or RS. You can pay Â£48k for a 2003 996 GT3, Â£70k for a 2004 RS so hey have held their money very well, much the same as the R8 I feel, save the introduction of the new V10 model. Dunno what this will do to residuals. It could keep them high if the V10 if too expensive.

I am being offered Â£48-50k for my C2S which I paid Â£72k for in 2006 (30% in two years) and that's before the face lift is out and down to the fact that Porsche produced in excess of 100,000 911's this last year. So I have them to thank for my latest residual figures....


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## Wondermikie (Apr 14, 2006)

ResB said:


> I am being offered Â£48-50k for my C2S which I paid Â£72k for in 2006 (30% in two years) and that's before the face lift is out...


Do you think it'll get much worse then, once the facelift is out?

What is the future of cars? Everything is suffering killer depreciation now, even so called premium marques. First 18 months or so you're looking at 40% (minimum) depreciation, the used market is obviously voting with it's cash and bringing prices down, but what about new ones?

My SLK has lost 40% in 15 months trade, and 35% if I privately sell it. That's just crazy :?

FFS there seems to be a period of about 3 months where you can own a car and not lose too much of your shirt on it, then after that period expires it's a downwards spiral.


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## Neil (May 7, 2002)

ResB said:


> down to the fact that Porsche produced in excess of 100,000 911's this last year. So I have them to thank for my latest residual figures....


...but surely they only build to order, so they are only producing to match demand? (rather than flooding the market with pre-reg cars etc). OK, so they could "ration" them, and artifically increase lead times by restricting production, but why would they? The lower residuals don't seem to be stopping people buying new Porsche's, so why would Porsche change anything?


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## Kell (May 28, 2002)

Is this excessive depreciation part and parcel of the whole credit crunch?

I'd imagine that many people stretched themselves to get their dream car when times were better and are now regretting that decision.

If anything, it's the mid-priced cars that are likely to be hit hardest.

i.e. if you're driving around in a ten year old Fiesta, it's not going to matter - and nor is going to bother you too much if you're driving an Enzo.


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## tdk (Jul 22, 2003)

ResB said:


> Agreed, the 911 is losing bucket loads


I think you'll find that most luxury cars aren't fairing that well on the second hand market at the moment - this is pretty much down to the credit crunch and general lack of confidence in the economy.



> I am being offered Â£48-50k for my C2S which I paid Â£72k for in 2006 (30% in two years)


So, you're pretty much in line for a 40% loss in 3 years - that's a 60% residual value which I think you'll find is pretty good. Try owning a performance BMW or Merc and you won't see anywhere near that level of residual value.

The R8 will obviously fair better than that at the moment, but as soon as waiting lists disappear - which they will do eventually - then I think you'll see their values dropping inline with other performance cars pretty quickly. Look what happened with the RS4 or the Aston Martin V8 Vantage for instance.



> Porsche produced in excess of 100,000 911's this last year.


I'm not sure where you got your figures from, but Porsche only produced just over 102,000 cars for the worldwide market in 2006/7, with only just over 10,000 coming to the UK.

Simon.


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## Jac-in-a-Box (Nov 9, 2002)

Like it or not, Porsche is a volume manufacturer now...it didn't get to be the worlds most profitable by being a niche player.

Gone are the days when they built one less than they needed to satisfy demand, thus giving some protection to residuals.

I remember looking for a Boxster 4 years ago - Pistonheads classifieds had 30 odd to choose from at premium prices, today there's over 300 and that hasn't happened due to the recent credit crunch, though that's certainly part of the story in the current used car market...bargains in all mid/high end cars everywhere.

The only Pork that's holding it's value, as Resb has pointed out, are the niche models - and some of the decent older 911's.

Feel sorry for a friend of mine who spent close to Â£90k on a high spec Cayenne Turbo S in Feb this year and can only get bids of Â£60k today - that hurts!
Have heard (see PH) that current 997TT's are losing Â£1k+ a month - great if you're a buyer, brutal if you're selling.

Dave


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## raven (May 7, 2002)

Wondermikie said:


> ResB said:
> 
> 
> > I am being offered Â£48-50k for my C2S which I paid Â£72k for in 2006 (30% in two years) and that's before the face lift is out...
> ...


I'm also miserable about depreciation. I bought a nearly new (2 months old with 400 miles on the clock) Jaguar XKR in February for Â£60k (list price Â£72k) and unfortunately I will have to sell it at some point in the next 5 months. I went to my dealer yesterday and they gave me a price of Â£47k!!! What's more, they didn't even want the car because they just can't shift the existing ones they have on their forecourt. 

This is a 57 reg car that is barely 6 months old. It's fully loaded and it perfect nick. It's barely run in, and that's 35% depreciation in 6 months!


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## Neil (May 7, 2002)

raven said:


> I went to my dealer yesterday and they gave me a price of Â£47k!!! What's more, they didn't even want the car because they just can't shift the existing ones they have on their forecourt.


Was that just a derisory offer as they didn't want it (as you said)? Surely if you rang round a good few dealers you'd do better than that?


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

tdk said:


> ResB said:
> 
> 
> > Agreed, the 911 is losing bucket loads
> ...


Tell me quick, what's happened to the RS4??????

Pretty much all cars will lose 30% in their 1st year, as you have to remove the VAT. An R8 is say Â£70K plus VAT new so it's OTR price is Â£82K ish, but it will never attract VAT in the UK again so has dropped 17.5% the minute it's registered & this rule of thumb applies to every car in the UK.

If demand outstrips supply early on then it may command a premium for a few months, as the old RS6, current RS4, R8 did & the new M3 very nearly did :wink: , but that's only a very temporary scenario.

The R8 will go the same route as the 997TT & every other premium marque & it's depreciation momentum will gather pace. The current market for premium motors is no different than the housing market, in that we're all going to have to suffer that little extra loss.

Just look on PH for examples, Conti's for Â£50K & for a real bleeder look at the A8 4.2 TDi on a 57 plate at 40% off list with only a couple of thousand miles  Sign of the times i'm afraid & the R8 will not avoid the same fate being driven by the economy.

If you want depreciation proof motoring, don't buy a car :lol:


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## tdk (Jul 22, 2003)

W7 PMC said:


> Tell me quick, what's happened to the RS4??????


I think you're perfectly aware...



> If demand outstrips supply early on then it may command a premium for a few months, as the old RS6, *current RS4*, R8 did & the new M3 very nearly did :wink: , but that's only a very temporary scenario.


Simon.


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## Jac-in-a-Box (Nov 9, 2002)

neil1003 said:


> raven said:
> 
> 
> > I went to my dealer yesterday and they gave me a price of Â£47k!!! What's more, they didn't even want the car because they just can't shift the existing ones they have on their forecourt.
> ...


IIRC Tata, the Indian car maker, took over Jaguar...they off loaded all the XK's/XKR's at the dealers and told them to get rid.

Hence how Raven saved Â£12k on list...straight away that's residuals down the swanny.

Dave


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## PaulS (Jun 15, 2002)

Putting things into perspective, looking at my Monaro, I don't appear to have shed too much cash. Good ones, similar to my early May '04 CV8 version, seem to start around Â£13k. Not too bad, as I only paid Â£28k for it .... 4 years ago :wink:

May or may not have anything to do with the fact that there aren't that many around (just under 1000), and most people haven't a clue what it is (other than petrolheads)


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## Wondermikie (Apr 14, 2006)

raven said:


> ...It's barely run in, and that's 35% depreciation in 6 months!


Shocking really :?



W7 PMC said:


> Pretty much all cars will lose 30% in their 1st year, as you have to remove the VAT.


Not so sure that was always the case on premium marques, you only have to look at the volume BMW, Merc and Audi have started shifting to see what it has done to residuals. BMW must self-register about 30% of everything it "sells" in the UK.



W7 PMC said:


> If you want depreciation proof motoring, don't buy a car :lol:


True. We are all petrol heads and put up with this, but what I was saying is at some point it has got to stop. Either residuals start to firm up or new prices start to come down, or it will get to the point where none of us buys new or mildy used "expensive" cars because of it.



PaulS said:


> Putting things into perspective, looking at my Monaro, I don't appear to have shed too much cash...


At last, a happy story


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## Kell (May 28, 2002)

Trying frantically to drag this back on topic, I saw a Red R8 last night with the number plate C1.3VER

Looked very good in red (though I went past it too quickly to notice what colour the blades were).


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

tdk said:


> W7 PMC said:
> 
> 
> > Tell me quick, what's happened to the RS4??????
> ...


No seriously, i'm not sure what you mean. The current RS4 is depreciating in line with it's peers, perhaps doing a little better than some but that's down to limited supply & the fact it's still seen by many as the leader in it's class despite newer offerings on the market. It's initial premium was very short lived but at least it had one as the new M3 promised the same but never delivered & was available below list price from day 1.

A 12mth old Â£50K new Saloon will still cost over Â£40K so has shed 20% or less in it's 1st year which aint bad taking the VAT into account. Silly bids being made by speculators on all marques currently & i don't see this changing soon. As i said before, if you want depreciation proof motoring, don't buy a car.

You could be the poor owner of this motor. A Â£75K hit in 800 miles & only a couple of months :lol:

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/568555.htm


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

Kell said:


> Trying frantically to drag this back on topic, I saw a Red R8 last night with the number plate C1.3VER
> 
> Looked very good in red (though I went past it too quickly to notice what colour the blades were).


I've seen 2 red ones & think it looks terrible in Red. In black, white & silver it looks stunning but red i think is just nasty. I'd have one in any colour though if i was given one :lol:


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

raven said:


> Wondermikie said:
> 
> 
> > ResB said:
> ...


Ouch, but not entirely unpredictable. Jaguars have always had challenged residuals.

I don't think it is so much credit crunch as industry over-capacity; the most ever consumer choices in any price bracket; and social change where flash cars are being seem as profligate, particularly if you are in business. Then there is the eco angle...

Credit-wise either are plenty of manufacturuer subsidised deals around.

On topic , all a cars depreciate R8 is no exception. But noone buys them for those reason. It's about desire and willingness to spend.

Â£13k in 6 months is OK. Although you could have nearly bought a sporting hatch outright for that. but who wants a hatchback.

I abandoned all thoughts of car changes for a while.


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## raven (May 7, 2002)

I think people are just holding off buying / selling unless they have to. Unfortunately I have to sell at some point, so will I guess have to take the hit.

It has got me thinking about how to minimise the depreciation hit though, whilst still getting a car I really *want" to own. I used to be quite good at this - my first imported TT hardly cost me anything over 3.5 years (bought for something like Â£29k and sold for Â£22k) and then my 911 "only" cost me 30% depreciation over 2 and a bit years which didn't feel catastrophic.

I even read up on the new BMW X6 last night - anything with a waiting list is bound to be a bit better, although you don't get the new price discount.

On the positive side, my M reg Volvo has suffered absolutely zero depreciation over the last 2 years. Every cloud and all that. 

As for the R8, given the climate, I'm sure even they would struggle to sell that quickly. Still be better than almost anything else out there though. I don't even think the new engine will make any difference - I bet the car mags say that smaller engine is the better buy when it comes to the comparisons.


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## tdk (Jul 22, 2003)

W7 PMC said:


> No seriously, i'm not sure what you mean. The current RS4 is depreciating in line with it's peers, perhaps doing a little better than some but that's down to limited supply & the fact it's still seen by many as the leader in it's class despite newer offerings on the market. It's initial premium was very short lived but at least it had one as the new M3 promised the same but never delivered & was available below list price from day 1.


That's pretty much the point I was making about the RS4 with regards to the R8 - my view is that initial premiums and good residual values will rapidly drop away, in much the same way they did for the RS4.

At the end of the day the R8 is just another performance luxury car that will depreciate in a similar manner to offerings from other manufacturers. Funnily enough I've just had the Audi dealer where I test drove the R8 a few weeks ago on the phone to me this morning offering me a cancelled order for a Phantom Black R8 that they have sitting in their showroom for sale right now.

Simon.


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## Wondermikie (Apr 14, 2006)

W7 PMC said:


> You could be the poor owner of this motor. A Â£75K hit in 800 miles & only a couple of months :lol:


Can't see him selling it anytime soon either, not with that ad anyway :lol:



raven said:


> ...I even read up on the new BMW X6 last night - anything with a waiting list is bound to be a bit better, although you don't get the new price discount.


FFS whatever you do don't get an X6, it'll be worse than the Jag, guaranteed. In 12 months when there are mega specced BMW management cars swishing around all over the place at Â£15k under list, it'll have been a really bad idea.


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## thebears (Jan 14, 2006)

One motoring mag has the R8 at Â£36k deprecation over 3 years!!


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## jam (May 8, 2002)

My old man has lost Â£50k on his Bentley GT in 2 years :?

You pays yer money and makes yer choice though. Everyone knows their car will depreciate.

As Paul said.....If you want depreciation proof motoring, don't buy a car!


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## tdk (Jul 22, 2003)

thebears said:


> One motoring mag has the R8 at Â£36k deprecation over 3 years!!


That's not too bad then, 60%'ish residual value. I figure about Â£1K per month is a realistic cost of ownership for a Â£70K+ performance luxury car.

Simon.


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

What you are all making the case for is P1, Seagrave Club club membership etc. Suddenly Â£10K a year membership starts to make sense. :idea:

Ed. Do not go near an X6 - it's the wrong car at the wrong time. If M6 residuals are anything to go by you will lose a few shirts worth on any Â£50K BMW or Audi (or Merc)

Only losing 30% in two years with the 997 doesnt really sound too bad to me - until you look at that in hard cash terms - about Â£20k - say two years membership of one of the exotic car club.

If you want depn free - buy an old Volvo. :wink:


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## ethangill (Sep 19, 2008)

The simple facts of depreciation and cost of ownership - you may cry if you bought a brand new R8! 
"You cant handle the truth"

Audi R8 Costs of Ownership 
YEAR 1	YEAR 2	YEAR 3	YEAR 4	4 YR TOTAL
Deprec	£12000	£10000	£9000	£8000	£39000
Financing	£4200	£3500	£3300	£3000	£14000
Insurance	£1200	£1200	£1200	£1200	£4800
Road tax	£400	£400	£400	£400	£1600
Fuel	£1800	£1800	£1800	£1800	£7200
Maint.	N/A	250	£900	£250	£1400
Repairs	N/A	N/A	£250	£250	£500
Cost
Per Year	£19600	£17150	£16850	£14900	£68500

£68500 = total after 4years down the drain lost never to be gotten back plus you will still owe another 39000 on the R8 which refinanced over another 4years well you do the maths 

Hope this puts things into perspective


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

And worth every penny 

..good job cars are largely emotional rather than rational purchases eh?


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## Karcsi (Mar 6, 2003)

After spending a few weeks looking around for a 993 4S, I think Porsche (Porsche owners, more accurately) have their own problems. The 996 has received an absolute battering in depreciation, and the 997 is receiving the same treatment. 993s costing more than 996s half their age; 4 year old 997s the same price as 993 3 times their age. Yes, it has a lot to do with the change to a less than desirable / reliable water-cooled 996. But it has loads to do with the numbers of people now able to afford such cars, and manufacturers responding in producing more of them.

I am sure the R8 will fair a lot better than the rest for the time being - because it is a niche in itself: an Audi (proper) sports car, and not a 2-a-penny fast saloon. It handles like a Porsche, sounds as awsome as a Ferrari, has the looks of a Ferrari, but has bullet proof reliability and assured quality. It is unique. And unless Audi step up production, exclusivity is assured. But a lot can happen in 5 years: a V6 version perhaps?


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## p1tse (Sep 20, 2004)

met someone who had a silver with silver blades this weekend as a company car!!!!

first time i sat in one, and my god, the throttle response and noise was awesome.

but to add my own, i quite like the red, as saw one at gatwick airport duty free area where they do raffle things. 
poor car had so many swirl marks, but the red and black blades looked ace


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## The Silver Surfer (May 14, 2002)

I, for one, can't wait for the R8 to depreciate, so I can go out and buy one.


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## Scotty225 (Feb 7, 2008)

The Silver Surfer said:


> I, for one, can't wait for the R8 to depreciate, so I can go out and buy one.


I 2nd that


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## HighTT (Feb 14, 2004)

ethangill said:


> Cost
> Per Year	£19600	£17150	£16850	£14900	£68500
> 
> £68500 = total after 4years down the drain lost never to be gotten back plus you will still owe another 39000 on the R8 which refinanced over another 4years well you do the maths


and if you are paying for a car such as this out of taxed income,
(approx. paying tax @ 40% plus N.I. @ 10%) you have to earn double that which you actually spend [smiley=bigcry.gif]


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## TTCool (Feb 7, 2005)

HighTT said:


> ethangill said:
> 
> 
> > Cost
> ...


I'm so glad someone understands the tax and NI implications in the context above. Even if the Company provides your transport, an R8? :? it is still a benefit in kind and taxable at the new price including any extras fitted. More often than not people talk about good deals and profit without any regard to the tax implications. Slightly off topic but that goes goes for all these morning 'house programs' on TV, lettings etc...total rubbish, bottom line fantasy.

Joe


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## Wondermikie (Apr 14, 2006)

TTCool said:


> > and if you are paying for a car such as this out of taxed income,
> > (approx. paying tax @ 40% plus N.I. @ 10%) you have to earn double that which you actually spend [smiley=bigcry.gif]
> 
> 
> I'm so glad someone understands the tax and NI implications in the context above. Even if the Company provides your transport, an R8? :? it is still a benefit in kind and taxable at the new price including any extras fitted. More often than not people talk about good deals and profit without any regard to the tax implications.


Hmmm, a car is no different to anything else though?

We buy virtually everything with taxed income, so to trough the McChicken Sandwich meal I just bought means I needed to earn £6.65 just to pay £3.99 for it. True, but not really relevant.


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## TTCool (Feb 7, 2005)

Wondermikie said:


> TTCool said:
> 
> 
> > > and if you are paying for a car such as this out of taxed income,
> ...


Somehow the scale registers in my mind, though :!:

Joe


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## RK07 (Jul 31, 2007)

And there is no resale value to a McChicken Sandwich :roll:


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## Wondermikie (Apr 14, 2006)

RK07 said:


> And there is no resale value to a McChicken Sandwich :roll:


True, but probably at least as satisfying as an R8 on a £ for £ basis.

I think the only way you'd factor tax into the equation was if you ran your own business and leased it through the business.


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## RK07 (Jul 31, 2007)

I liked your analogy Mike - might use it as a pitch at work. 'The R8 has a resale value, how much are you going to get back for your McDonalds'? :lol:

My Challenge Stradale fund is somewhat depleted after my trip to McDonalds yesterday [smiley=bigcry.gif] :wink:


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## skiwhiz (Feb 17, 2008)

Wondermikie said:


> RK07 said:
> 
> 
> > And there is no resale value to a McChicken Sandwich :roll:
> ...


so about 20,000 sarnies = 1 R8 :twisted:


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