# Free Test Drive in Scotland - Brake Judder TT



## A8VCG (May 9, 2011)

I've recently purchased low mileage and newish Brembo GT kit from a Forum member that has recently moved away from the Audi stable.

The kit was fitted last week and I took my dad out in the car this afternoon for a spirited 20 mile drive. I've done quite a bit of modifications in the last 2 weeks one of which was the Brembo 4-pot upgrade. I've driven under 100 miles since getting the car back on Thursday and although the brake pedal is extremely firm there is a bit of feedback which is transferring through the brake pedal and steering wheel under braking.

It feels like *warped discs* although they visually seem to be in very good condition with only a 2mm lip on the edge of both discs.

Any ideas? Any advice? Anyone wishing to tell me what they think is more than welcome to drive my car in the next week

Richard ? Gordon ? ... Cheers Craig


----------



## gogs (Dec 22, 2010)

Hey Craig,

If you can get a straight length of wood or metal long enough to reach the disc whilst the end is sat on the ground, if you turn the disc you should be able to tell if they are warped at all, not a scientific approach I know! either that or a tool to check for a warped disc, I've seen these, but have no idea where to get one :-(


----------



## spaceplace (Mar 10, 2013)

take it to a garage and get them to put a micrometer on it to test its straight, new discs will need to be worn in carefully or they will warp, dont do any heavy braking for a couple of hundred miles


----------



## gogs (Dec 22, 2010)

Micrometer that's the chap


----------



## A8VCG (May 9, 2011)

Thanks lads - I think my dad has one so will dig it out tomorrow and get the wheels off.

bummer!


----------



## markypoo (Sep 4, 2009)

You'd need a DTI gauge to see if they run true, sounds like warped discs though and some places can skim them on the car to save buying new


----------



## A8VCG (May 9, 2011)

markypoo said:


> You'd need a DTI gauge to see if they run true, sounds like warped discs though and some places can skim them on the car to save buying new


That's what i thought Mark - I wasn't expecting to have to skim them and to be honest I think i'd rather just buy new standard discs now!

bummer


----------



## markypoo (Sep 4, 2009)

Cuprabhoy said:


> markypoo said:
> 
> 
> > You'd need a DTI gauge to see if they run true, sounds like warped discs though and some places can skim them on the car to save buying new
> ...


They wont be standard discs though if you have Brembo's, I had the GT Junior's on my last TT and the disc's are bigger, they were the same as standard fitting on the Seat Leon Cupra. If they aren't to bad skimming might be a cheaper option :wink:


----------



## A8VCG (May 9, 2011)

markypoo said:


> Cuprabhoy said:
> 
> 
> > markypoo said:
> ...


Yes mate, the discs that were originally on the car are 334mm and the Brembo discs are 323mm same as the Cupra R


----------



## Silverye (Mar 13, 2013)

Cuprabhoy said:


> I've recently purchased low mileage and newish Brembo GT kit from a Forum member that has recently moved away from the Audi stable.
> 
> The kit was fitted last week and I took my dad out in the car this afternoon for a spirited 20 mile drive. I've done quite a bit of modifications in the last 2 weeks one of which was the Brembo 4-pot upgrade. I've driven under 100 miles since getting the car back on Thursday and although the brake pedal is extremely firm there is a bit of feedback which is transferring through the brake pedal and steering wheel under braking.
> 
> ...


Hi Craig

Might not be needed following other advice, but more than happy to meet up this week if you want someone else's view. I'm going to be in Edinburgh on Wednesday and free at around 2:30/3pm - will also be in Edinburgh on Friday.

Cheers
Richard.


----------



## A8VCG (May 9, 2011)

Thanks Richard, I'll be about in Edinburgh on Wednesday and Friday and will be passing Stirling tomorrow in the afternoon or evening. thanks

ps - don't have the exhaust back from the garage yet but may have it by Friday so you can take a look at it


----------



## jhon (Sep 16, 2010)

When you take the discs off, check carefully that there is no debris between the hub surface and the disc, rust build-up around the studs, etc. These surfaces have to be scrupulously clean when fitting - if there is anything between these two surfaces it will cause the disc to 'run-out', giving the same effect as a warp.
Worth checking.


----------



## A8VCG (May 9, 2011)

jhon said:


> When you take the discs off, check carefully that there is no debris between the hub surface and the disc, rust build-up around the studs, etc. These surfaces have to be scrupulously clean when fitting - if there is anything between these two surfaces it will cause the disc to 'run-out', giving the same effect as a warp.
> Worth checking.


Good advice pal - gonna take the car for a 20mile run now to see if it just needs bedded in some more! :!:


----------



## gogs (Dec 22, 2010)

Go easy on the brakes mate ;-)


----------



## mullum (Sep 16, 2011)

Don't know if it helps but there's a group buy happening - rears ..


----------



## A8VCG (May 9, 2011)

Just back from another 15 mile run - I'll be extremely surprised if it's not a warped disc!

Someone highlighted cleaning the surface between the disc and hub but they have not been fitted using grease just as they should so I sincerely doubt the issue is to do with the fitting!

Very disappointed


----------



## ades tt 180 (Jun 19, 2011)

Cuprabhoy said:


> I've recently purchased low mileage and newish Brembo GT kit from a Forum member that has recently moved away from the Audi stable.
> 
> It feels like *warped discs* although they visually seem to be in very good condition with only a 2mm lip on the edge of both discs.


I wouldnt say these are low milage if there is a 2 mil lip on each disc...they sound quite worn down so i wouldnt risk having them skimmed either...looks like new discs are required.


----------



## Silverye (Mar 13, 2013)

Cuprabhoy said:


> Thanks Richard, I'll be about in Edinburgh on Wednesday and Friday and will be passing Stirling tomorrow in the afternoon or evening. thanks
> 
> ps - don't have the exhaust back from the garage yet but may have it by Friday so you can take a look at it


Hi Craig

I'm around the house today but looking after 4 kids (school hols time) - so wouldn't be able to pop out for a drive unfortunately.

Wednesday works for me - my last meeting of the day finishes around 2:30pm in the city centre - so can meet anywhere (will have my wifes car that day - not the TT).


----------



## A8VCG (May 9, 2011)

ades tt 180 said:


> Cuprabhoy said:
> 
> 
> > I've recently purchased low mileage and newish Brembo GT kit from a Forum member that has recently moved away from the Audi stable.
> ...


I bought them in Market place on the premise that they had only done 5,000 miles from a low mileage QS. Everything looks to be in good condition and the seller's car was test driven by TTShop when they were removed along with the lads BlueFlame exhaust which went to another owner/TTF member. I'll post some photos but you can't really see a warped disc IMO you can really only feel it through the brake pedal.

Further more there doesn't seem to be much in the way of pedal feedback at low speed but I suppose this could be consistent with a warped disc or a pair of warped discs.

Cheers for the message - Craig


----------



## A8VCG (May 9, 2011)

Silverye said:


> Cuprabhoy said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks Richard, I'll be about in Edinburgh on Wednesday and Friday and will be passing Stirling tomorrow in the afternoon or evening. thanks
> ...


Richard, are you about on Saturday as i'll be passing about 1600-1700?


----------



## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

get the hubs clocked first off without the disks on and then with disks on, can always be shimmed if only slightly out (microns i'm talking) but would be better if skimmed in reality. are you sure the brakes are not binding slightly on one side?


----------



## Silverye (Mar 13, 2013)

Cuprabhoy said:


> Richard, are you about on Saturday as i'll be passing about 1600-1700?


Sorry mate - I'm going to be picking my wife up from Edinburgh Waverly at 6pm this Saturday - ironic as 99.99/100 I'm around at that time on a Saturday!


----------



## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

Warped discs are actually incredibly rare, although a lot of people will claim to have had them. Have a read of this article on the Stoptech site. It's a bit long, but well worth it:

http://www.stoptech.com/technical-support/technical-white-papers/-warped-brake-disc-and-other-myths


----------



## A8VCG (May 9, 2011)

Spandex said:


> Warped discs are actually incredibly rare, although a lot of people will claim to have had them. Have a read of this article on the Stoptech site. It's a bit long, but well worth it:
> 
> http://www.stoptech.com/technical-support/technical-white-papers/-warped-brake-disc-and-other-myths


Thanks Spandex - I've only done 120 miles so i'll see how it is after the weekend when i take it for a good run- Hopefully it's just needing to be bedded in again and it's potentially glaze on the pads.

Cheers Craig


----------



## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

if these were mine i think i would be taking the discs off and make sure they are fitted properly,,,, ( 2mm on 5k miles use is i think rather excessive unless driven hard and then it maybe a warping issue )


----------



## Mr. 1576 (Jul 7, 2009)

For info I had my front discs skimmed in situ at EBC Brakes in Northampton a couple of years ago. I paid cash and paid £60 - and they were happy to let me watch.

I have to say that the surface finish after the discs were faced off was flawless - they literally looked brand new, and hardly any material was removed.

1576


----------



## A8VCG (May 9, 2011)

Hi folks - yes it's a warped disc and to my surprise the "seller" doesn't want to know at them moment which is a bit of a shame.

I thought this Forum was better than that but i've been done so be careful when buying performance parts. Performance parts although higher perceived quality also means potentially abused! 

Names Will likely follow if it's not resolved today as I asked for a partial refund and after great consideration it has not resulted in a partial refund - No surprise there then!

Bit of a bummer i'm afraid and it's spoiled my day! (last 3 weeks)


----------



## keithtd (Aug 22, 2007)

There are ar---holes everywhere mate even on here which, as you say is a real shame, but thankfully very rare. In many cases Fleabay is better at least you have some comeback on there.
There should be a 'name and shame' section on here so people can go to it before buying from the parts section as there's nothing to stop bad apples advertising again and again.


----------



## Silverye (Mar 13, 2013)

Cuprabhoy said:


> Hi folks - yes it's a warped disc and to my surprise the "seller" doesn't want to know at them moment which is a bit of a shame.
> 
> I thought this Forum was better than that but i've been done so be careful when buying performance parts. Performance parts although higher perceived quality also means potentially abused!
> 
> ...


  Sorry to hear about the hassle - fingers crossed the seller will step-up and do the right thing.


----------



## gogs (Dec 22, 2010)

Silverye said:


> Cuprabhoy said:
> 
> 
> > Hi folks - yes it's a warped disc and to my surprise the "seller" doesn't want to know at them moment which is a bit of a shame.
> ...


+1


----------



## mullum (Sep 16, 2011)

So will you be able to have them skinned, Craig, or does the fact that they're warped me they go in the bin ?


----------



## A8VCG (May 9, 2011)

mullum said:


> So will you be able to have them skinned, Craig, or does the fact that they're warped me they go in the bin ?


Spoke to one of the few places that skim automotive discs today and apparently the cross drilled discs damage the lathe / machine so this is a no go - looks like they are going in the bin unfortunately

cheers Craig


----------



## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

Cuprabhoy said:


> mullum said:
> 
> 
> > So will you be able to have them skinned, Craig, or does the fact that they're warped me they go in the bin ?
> ...


That is utter crap!!!! They can easily skim those or even surface grind them Craig


----------



## keithtd (Aug 22, 2007)

Cuprabhoy said:


> mullum said:
> 
> 
> > So will you be able to have them skinned, Craig, or does the fact that they're warped me they go in the bin ?
> ...


They don't know what they're talking about take a look here: http://www.skimmydiscs.co.uk/index.php


----------



## markypoo (Sep 4, 2009)

Sorry to hear all that Craig :? 
Thats the only trouble buying used, especially brakes, you can never tell their condition until you install.
Hope you get it sorted mate :wink:


----------



## ades tt 180 (Jun 19, 2011)

There is a recommended minimum thickness for discs and yours are already worn by 2 mil...i dont know what the minimum is though...maybe worth emailing the manufacturer to find out.


----------



## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

ades tt 180 said:


> There is a recommended minimum thickness for discs and yours are already worn by 2 mil...i dont know what the minimum is though...maybe worth emailing the manufacturer to find out.


Ade bud, that wasn't the reason they couldn't skim them.......


----------



## A8VCG (May 9, 2011)

Gazzer said:


> ades tt 180 said:
> 
> 
> > There is a recommended minimum thickness for discs and yours are already worn by 2 mil...i dont know what the minimum is though...maybe worth emailing the manufacturer to find out.
> ...


lol

Now in the for sale section!!!!! - if you're reading this please do not buy these!

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=326314


----------



## A8VCG (May 9, 2011)

keithtd said:


> Cuprabhoy said:
> 
> 
> > mullum said:
> ...


Thanks lads -

thanks for the message Keith - theres a place in Edinburgh so i'll ring them tomorrow.


----------



## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

One minute being thrown out........then in for sale section????? Errr do you know they are ok or not? As if it gets traced back as crap then you get it legally.


----------



## noidea (Jan 16, 2012)

Do you know what the minimum thickness of the disc can be? 
Can you measure what they are at the moment?
If they are still servicable I can skim them for you, chances are they will only be running out a few thou'.
Don't panic just yet until you have measured them.


----------



## Silverye (Mar 13, 2013)

Gazzer said:


> One minute being thrown out........then in for sale section????? Errr do you know they are ok or not? As if it gets traced back as crap then you get it legally.


You should have a look at the advert :lol:


----------



## keithtd (Aug 22, 2007)

cheers Craig[/quote] 
They don't know what they're talking about take a look here: http://www.skimmydiscs.co.uk/index.php [/quote]

Thanks lads -

thanks for the message Keith - theres a place in Edinburgh so i'll ring them tomorrow.[/quote]
No problem mate, anything we can do to get it sorted.


----------



## A8VCG (May 9, 2011)

Gazzer said:


> One minute being thrown out........then in for sale section????? Errr do you know they are ok or not? As if it gets traced back as crap then you get it legally.


I think you'll enjoy this - viewtopic.php?f=15&t=326314


----------



## A8VCG (May 9, 2011)

noidea said:


> Do you know what the minimum thickness of the disc can be?
> Can you measure what they are at the moment?
> If they are still servicable I can skim them for you, chances are they will only be running out a few thou'.
> Don't panic just yet until you have measured them.


That's super-sound of you to offer thanks mate... - I was at Halfords today to check them and they outsource their "skimming" to another garage who told them their lathe would be damaged with the Cross drilled discs (good lads at Halfords in Edinburgh tbh). Keith on here has put me onto a "pro-cut" skimmer that appears to do drilled and grooved discs and its a few miles up the road from me in Edinburgh. i'll try tomorrow and let everyone know how the adventure goes


----------



## gogs (Dec 22, 2010)

Fingers crossed Craig ;-)


----------



## noidea (Jan 16, 2012)

Cuprabhoy said:


> noidea said:
> 
> 
> > Do you know what the minimum thickness of the disc can be?
> ...


No worries mate, I hope you get it sorted. The best way is to have them re-cut when bolted to the hub, they have to be right then. Good luck


----------



## sallyday10 (May 22, 2012)

Big Ed on Sky's Discovery Turbo had the discs re-skimmed on a Boxster S on one show recently.

All done in-situ whilst on the car, and I'm fairly sure they were cross-drilled discs.

Looked like a fairly specialised piece of kit though and not sure about the cost per corner.

They came up like new though!


----------



## A8VCG (May 9, 2011)

sallyday10 said:


> Big Ed on Sky's Discovery Turbo had the discs re-skimmed on a Boxster S on one show recently.
> 
> All done in-situ whilst on the car, and I'm fairly sure they were cross-drilled discs.
> 
> ...


Thanks I've read about it on google - Big Ed China  I bet you he invented the machine and everything!!

They now use the technology to make plates


----------



## Jac-in-a-Box (Nov 9, 2002)

Cuprabhoy said:


> Just back from another 15 mile run - I'll be extremely surprised if it's not a warped disc!
> 
> Someone highlighted cleaning the surface between the disc and hub but they have been fitted using grease just as they should so I sincerely doubt the issue is to do with the fitting!


I'd be extremely surprised if it is a warped disc...read the link given earlier on Stoptechs advice on brake judder that's often wrongly diagnosed as "warped discs"

It was a used set of calipers/pads/discs? - did they come to with the discs and pads marked as to which fits on the inside and ouside face of each disc? Fitting the pads in incorrect positions to which they were first installed would be likely to give judder, especially with the 2mm lip evident on the discs.

Discs should NOT be fitted to the hub with any grease between mating surfaces.

The "warped disc" effect can be caused be the smallest amount of crap being trapped between hub and disc mounting face. Anything more than 0.002" run out measured at the edge of the disc will cause judder.

Brake disc minimum thickness is stamped on the hub section of the disc. I assume when you say you have a 2mm wear lip, thats 2mm on each side of the disc - 4mm total. If so I'd suggest your discs probably need replacing.

Over torquing of your wheels to the hub can cause the disc and hub to distort, again giving brake judder.

Brake pad deposits on the discs will also give the judder...resinous deposits from the pads bonding to discs caused by holding the car stopped after some spirited driving driving will cause this. Easily removed using scotch brite and brake cleaner.

Are all the pistons on the calipers free to move?

If you do have sufficient material discs to allow on car machining you should fit new pads.

Warped disc? No, too many variables to deal with in your situation - but there's my 2p's worth :wink:

Dave


----------



## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

good post Dave and exactly as spandy's link stated. @craig good advert lol


----------



## A8VCG (May 9, 2011)

Chatham Skoda use the pro-cut system however they've stated they need to skim the discs twice and quoted me £150 which is the price of new standard discs and pads.

It's looking like i'll need to fit new discs and pads - Will keep you posted on this little testing adventure

cheers Craig


----------



## A8VCG (May 9, 2011)

Thanks Dave - Initially I was open to the symptoms highlighted in the various articles posted however as rare as it may be and from 2 diagnostics have said it's a warped disc, which as you say may of been caused by a number of factors such as:

Damaged when removed
Damaged in transit
Damaged during fitting
Faulty Caliper
ABS issue

All i know is the vibration was present the first time I drove the car above 50mph and tried to brake. With 10,000 miles on the discs they should not require to bed in as the brake surfaces should already have pad material present on the surface of the disc.

The last thing to check is for lumpy fluid!!!!!


----------



## keithtd (Aug 22, 2007)

Cuprabhoy said:


> Thanks Dave - Initially I was open to the symptoms highlighted in the various articles posted however as rare as it may be and from 2 diagnostics have said it's a warped disc, which as you say may of been caused by a number of factors such as:
> 
> Damaged when removed
> Damaged in transit
> ...


Still no word from the toss pot who sold them to you I take it.


----------



## A8VCG (May 9, 2011)

Cheers Keith - there's some reasonable dialogue going on however from his side of things they were perfect on his car prior to being removed so I'm in the position where I need to take everything with a pinch of salt and trust the fact that they have been fitted correctly.

Could they of been damaged in transit ?- OR could the rotors of been over torqued?...

I don't want to go pointing fingers just yet as the chap seems genuine but I trust my master technician having used the guy for 10 years and i also had him fit my coilovers, Anti Roll Bars and Defcons all at the same time at his well respected, franchised dealership where he runs 3 franchised Dealer Workshops under the same roof.

It's just strange Keith. Unfortunately that's 2 specialist garages with skimming equipment that have stated that it's either not cost effective to skim the discs or may damage their machine.

Standard replacements can be bought for £145 however what was originally sold were x-drilled Brembo discs with fast road Brembo pads so I'm the one doing all the compromising whilst trying to have a reasonable attitude and get the best result that's fair all round for everyone concerned! :-|

I've asked for a partial refund of £145 to cover new discs and pads - originally I paid £550 for the kit which included the calipers and braided brake lines however I believed them to be in prisitine condition therefore I was happy to pay the premium. I understand you can pick up calipers for in the region of £200 with brackets so with that figure in mind and poor performance of my brakes i'm not too pleased at this moment in time.

Will update!

Am i being unreasonable?


----------



## tom2018 (Mar 26, 2011)

Hi guys,

These are my brakes that he brought of me they were on my qs tt and were perfect only reason i sold was due to the fact i got rid of the tt.

The car had been remapped by wak around 2 months before i removed the brakes, and if you have had a remap of him you no he is in the car with you doing some serious speed etc then heavy braking and im sure he would of noticed if there was such a large amount of vibration as stated. The car has alos been test driven by 2 gauarges to diagnose a diffrent isssue with these brakes on and nither stated and brake issues or vibrations.

A new kits with the pads which are ds2500 not brembo sport and braded lines etc is around £1400.
Craig brought them from me in a used condition for 550 including £50 postage so £500 for the kit, i sold them as they were on my car and have no reason to belive that they would not work on another car, that at the same time as these were fitted had a few other moddifications done to it.

Also craig stated he was waiting 3-4weeks for me to remove the brakes it was less than 2 and he was more than happy to wait at that time.

One of his expert garages is also halfords, i wouldnt let them change a bulb let alone sort my or advise me on brakes.

I would also like to see brembo gt junior calipers for £200 you may get cupra ones or porshe ones for that but as far as im aware there are slight diffrences between them.

Also as dave said brake warping is very rare and how do i no from my point of view they have not been fitted incorrectly, if you brought them new and had the same issue i doubt brembo would refund moneys as they dont no how they were fitted etc unless you can prove its faulty manufacturing??

And kiethtd as for the toss pot who sold them to him, i have sold plenty of items on the forum over the last 2 years and never had an issue yet and also try seeing it from my point of view!!!!

I also did say i would not be giving compensation to him, he is now going to get new disks fitted and see if that solves the issue, if it does i may part way contribute to new disks, but i shall not be doing the whole amount as he cannot prove it was not fitting them to his car or his driving style that has done this since fitment and from my point of view this is fair to both partys.

Thanks
Tom


----------



## keithtd (Aug 22, 2007)

Hi Tom
I thought from what was said these were put on and immediately showed issues. Bearing in mind we're talking probabilities here I'm not sure how you can warp discs by what you call 'bad installation', you'd have to be a real numpty to damage discs on installation almost do it deliberately, same as for the post, these things are not easily damaged.
I do however appreciate you side and it's a nigh on impossible situation, comes down to goodwill I suppose. If you've sold lots on here then I would suggest selling anything in future might be a tab more difficult by taking a hard line but at the same time they were ok it seems on your car so it's all down to compromise. It might be worth asking Craig what he thinks is a reasonable contribution for new discs, providing they cure the problem, and take it from there.  
What they originally cost by the way is not really relevant, I paid over £22k for my TT couldn't get tuppence for it now! [smiley=bigcry.gif]


----------



## tom2018 (Mar 26, 2011)

Well he is going to g new disks etc fitted and see if that solves the problem, if it does then some form of good will jesture may happen.

Thats why i decided to post on here people were getting the wrong end of the stick from craigs side of things. I can see his point and if i were in his shoes id would more than likley be trying the same but not sure i would pinn all my hopes on the seller paying up.

From what iv read and been advised, the easiest and most common ways to have a warped disk is to incorrectly mount them on the hub or with rust etc or some prodcut under them or when fitted unevenly tighten wheel nuts as this can lead to disks being not straight ie giving the impression of warping.

Craig also told me that under 50mph they are fine, surley warped disks would be present at any speed.

I no the cost is not really relevent but he made a substatual saving by buying second hand, if he wanted no risk factor and a gaurentee with the brakes he could of brought new ones??

This is just my view here im not trying to rubbish craig i see his point of view but just want mine to be known also

Thanks
Tom


----------



## keithtd (Aug 22, 2007)

Well I've always maintained you not only buy the item but you also buy the seller that's why I suggest in taking a hard line you may give yourself issues down the line when coming to sell things either by way of people being weary or offering you less to compensate for a perceived increased in risk!
Ask yourself a simple question, by reading this thread would people buy from you in the future? It stinks I know as you may well be perfectly innocent but something to consider.
I will add one thing some buyers are just as bad as some sellers. Three things I've put up on here have all supposedly sold so I've told other interested parties they're gone, including my car, only to receive no more correspondence from the so called buyers. It happened in two of the three cases. Royal pain in the bum. :evil:
By the way the person who failed to buy the car subsequently listed questions on here about a car he did buy - seems it was a real lemon!
Point is when you don't do the right thing it often bites you in the arse! :wink:


----------



## Jac-in-a-Box (Nov 9, 2002)

At least there is dialogue going on between the two of you.

I'll go back to my earlier comments regarding the fitting...when the buyer recieved the kit were the discs marked as left and right and the pads marked as left inner, left outer etc? If they weren't, you have a very good chance of fitting the discs on the wrong sides with mis-matched pads. They must be fitted in the same position as they were on the sellers car, if not I'll guarantee you will have braking problems. Doesn't take too much working out that there will be a fair few permutations of fitting options!

Overtightening wheels bolts will distort the hubs and pads, running in this condition will give brake judder. However the distortion is unlilely to be permanent. Recheck the torque of the wheel bolts.

Ask whoever told you the discs where warped how they arrived at that decision - how did they measure it, what with, what was the runout figure, did they use shortened bolts to secure the disc to the hub with the correct torque before measuring, was the disc/hub mating surfaces spotlessly clean and free from corrosion, burs and grease...

I've heard the story countless times from people they've been told by trustworthy garages they have warped discs only to find out it's incorrect fitting and usually caused by crap between hub and disc mounting faces. It'll only take a speck of rust or whatever a few thous of an inch thick to produce large runouts at the periphery of the disc.
I'm friendly with a local motor factor who tells me they get a fair few sets of discs returned as faulty (by garages) with warping giving as the reason and has yet to have the manufacturer to agree with the diagnosis - includes Brembo and Brake Engineering who are respected manufacturers in the braking industry. Their reps have visited some of these garages to show them how to fit discs and pads correctly!

I've a Boxster S with drilled discs which are notorious for developing corrosion on the inner faces only which gives brake judder. I used RJM Engineering in Glenrothes to skim my fronts and rears several years ago - they use the Pro-Cut system and managed my drilled discs without any issues. http://www.rjmpt.co.uk/
Not too far a trip from Edinburgh to Fife?

If you do end up having to fit new discs, and the only reason for that is because they're close to the wear limit, you must fit new pads too!

Good luck 

Dave

Edit to add: £1400 for the Brembo kit??! Organised a group buy in 2002 on here through Red Dot Racing for kits at circa £550.00.


----------



## E3 YOB (Mar 2, 2010)

As soon as this thread started and I read that after spirited driving the discs seemed warped I thought user error.

TBH I think it sounds like bad fitment and Tom has had multiple sources validate that there was nothing wrong with the brakes prior to removal. This thread should not even exist and there are too many people who have a lack of knowledge but a quick finger to point. Tom should tell OP to grow up and be more careful next time with whom he chooses to fit bits to the car or in fact learn a thing or two himself.

Too many of these posts arise when someone has had a great deal but then wants a warranty for stupidity.


----------



## Kprincess (Aug 19, 2012)

I have the same issues with steering vibration but that's because the top mounts are poly and not got the right top caps on.

Just a thought


----------



## keithtd (Aug 22, 2007)

Kprincess said:


> I have the same issues with steering vibration but that's because the top mounts are poly and not got the right top caps on.
> 
> Just a thought


Is that what caused you to crash into those two cars Kal - I'm running for the hills! :lol:


----------



## A8VCG (May 9, 2011)

E3 YOB said:


> As soon as this thread started and I read that after spirited driving the discs seemed warped I thought user error.
> 
> TBH I think it sounds like bad fitment and Tom has had multiple sources validate that there was nothing wrong with the brakes prior to removal. This thread should not even exist and there are too many people who have a lack of knowledge but a quick finger to point. Tom should tell OP to grow up and be more careful next time with whom he chooses to fit bits to the car or in fact learn a thing or two himself.
> 
> Too many of these posts arise when someone has had a great deal but then wants a warranty for stupidity.


I wasn't aware you had all the facts to hand! - What exactly is wrong with the thread?

fyi - Brembo set up was fitted by a fully qualified Seat "Master" technician. Do you know the difference between a mechanic and a master technician?

Safe to say I don't appreciate your contribution and the seller and I are trying to work together to resolve the issue but I understand you standing up for your mate.


----------



## Kprincess (Aug 19, 2012)

keithtd said:


> Kprincess said:
> 
> 
> > I have the same issues with steering vibration but that's because the top mounts are poly and not got the right top caps on.
> ...


I had the OE top bushes that had play in them :roll:
So replaced with poly crap but they made matters worse and they now need polo 6n top caps which are wider :? 
Should the seller not state this on their website?.


----------



## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

Cuprabhoy said:


> fyi - Brembo set up was fitted by a fully qualified Seat "Master" technician. Do you know the difference between a mechanic and a master technician?


In my experience the difference between the two is that a mechanic earns his money by using his experience, skill and common sense to fix problems, whereas 'master' technicians are so used to blindly following the instructions on their VAS terminals that if you asked them to find their arse with both hands, they'd start desperately searching for a TSB explaining where to look.

VW will only let 'master' technicians work on my car so i know this from bitter experience. Needless to say, a mechanic now looks after my car.


----------



## Kprincess (Aug 19, 2012)

keithtd said:


> There are ar---holes everywhere mate even on here which, as you say is a real shame, but thankfully very rare. In many cases Fleabay is better at least you have some comeback on there.
> There should be a 'name and shame' section on here so people can go to it before buying from the parts section as there's nothing to stop bad apples advertising again and again.


And who said fleebay wasn't safe :wink:


----------



## keithtd (Aug 22, 2007)

Kprincess said:


> keithtd said:
> 
> 
> > There are ar---holes everywhere mate even on here which, as you say is a real shame, but thankfully very rare. In many cases Fleebay is better at least you have some comeback on there.
> ...


 :?: I know it's not difficult but you've lost me Kal :?


----------



## Kprincess (Aug 19, 2012)

keithtd said:


> Kprincess said:
> 
> 
> > keithtd said:
> ...


"n many cases Fleebay is better at least you have some comeback"

This is what I was referring too. Come on Keith, getting old are we :wink:


----------



## keithtd (Aug 22, 2007)

Cheeky sod, still don't get it "and who said Fleebay wasn't safe". Did I say it wasn't - must be dementia! [smiley=bigcry.gif]

By the way I assume you got your tie bars ok, are you going to fit them to the top or bottom?


----------



## Kprincess (Aug 19, 2012)

keithtd said:


> Cheeky sod, still don't get it "and who said Fleebay wasn't safe". Did I say it wasn't - must be dementia! [smiley=bigcry.gif]


 :lol: it was only a statement not passed off at you old boy :-* 
Someone mentioned it when I was asking how safe it was buying off members via the PayPal "gift" route but looks like you can buy off PayPal and still have issues  no offence intended to either parties involved.


----------



## keithtd (Aug 22, 2007)

Kprincess said:


> keithtd said:
> 
> 
> > Cheeky sod, still don't get it "and who said Fleebay wasn't safe". Did I say it wasn't - must be dementia! [smiley=bigcry.gif]
> ...


ok let you off. Did you see my question re: tie bars?  oh and less of the old boy if you don't mind, who ever told you it now takes me all night to do what I used to do all night is telling porkies. :lol:


----------



## Kprincess (Aug 19, 2012)

keithtd said:


> Kprincess said:
> 
> 
> > keithtd said:
> ...


Was only teasing Keith, I know the elderly get ticked off when called names :wink: 
Opps I did it again 

Regards

Kal


----------



## keithtd (Aug 22, 2007)

I'm not taking the bait, [smiley=baby.gif]


----------



## Kprincess (Aug 19, 2012)

keithtd said:


> I'm not taking the bait, [smiley=baby.gif]


 [smiley=dizzy2.gif] :wink:


----------



## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

Jac-in-a-Box said:


> At least there is dialogue going on between the two of you.
> 
> I'll go back to my earlier comments regarding the fitting...when the buyer recieved the kit were the discs marked as left and right and the pads marked as left inner, left outer etc? If they weren't, you have a very good chance of fitting the discs on the wrong sides with mis-matched pads. They must be fitted in the same position as they were on the sellers car, if not I'll guarantee you will have braking problems. Doesn't take too much working out that there will be a fair few permutations of fitting options!
> 
> ...


Dave is it possible to shim the disks in the area to straighten them and then torque them up? i only ask as i do not know if it would be recommended on a brake system. i may be talking absolute trot as i said.......its just when i have installed machine beds etc in the past we have shimmed them to ensure um (micron) precission. (also trying to help the situation)


----------



## Kprincess (Aug 19, 2012)

Looks like 2002 prices have tripled 

Edit to add: £1400 for the Brembo kit??! Organised a group buy in 2002 on here through Red Dot Racing for kits at circa £550.00.

I want one to slow me down in case I clobber that s o a w from aarc and that assessor :x


----------



## tom2018 (Mar 26, 2011)

Indeedy they have trippled

http://www.thettshop.com/performance.as ... uct=600438

£1200 from the tt shop without braded lines and with standard brembo pads.

Also ebay is safe but you only have comeback up to 40 days after purchase, cupraboy recived these items at the end of january??

Thanks
Tom


----------



## keithtd (Aug 22, 2007)

tom2018 said:


> Indeedy they have trippled
> 
> http://www.thettshop.com/performance.as ... uct=600438
> 
> ...


The fact that your quoting 40 days for comeback on Ebay kind of says it all. It's not about rules it's about doing the right thing. :x


----------



## tom2018 (Mar 26, 2011)

Sorry what do you mean kieth?

Tom


----------



## keithtd (Aug 22, 2007)

tom2018 said:


> Sorry what do you mean kieth?
> 
> Tom


What difference does it make how long you have on Ebay, not sure why you made the comment, this is about doing the right thing isn't it?


----------



## tom2018 (Mar 26, 2011)

keithtd said:


> Kprincess said:
> 
> 
> > keithtd said:
> ...


I said it because of your comment about flebay being safe as above, you do have comeback on there for a reasonable amount of time ie 40 days he has had the brakes since around the 26th of jan i think, well outside every place i no off returns policy including ebays for second hand products

Just saying 

Tom


----------



## keithtd (Aug 22, 2007)

'Just saying' why would you bring this up it's irrelevant but it makes you sound like you're trying to get out of something. That's how it comes across.


----------



## A8VCG (May 9, 2011)

I appreciate all the posts lads and Tom for joining the conversation. If I may ... this was never a personal attack on Tom as I'm not like that. What I've tried to do is present the facts and the initial reason for creating the post was to ask for feedback and get a solution on the brake judder. Subsequently the judder has been diagnosed by 3 people as warped discs as well as a few other diagnostics without the facts being present!

I've now taken the alloys off the car and the RHS disc appears to be slightly damaged where the disc is ventilated at the outer circumference. Perhaps they were damaged in transit as the metal is not consistent on the inside of the disc all the way round and it appears flakey as If chipped away!. I'll try to photo this next time the alloys are removed.

Other than that, the brakes appear to be in really good condition with a consistent and smooth 2mm lip on both the outer and inner surfaces.

Copper grease has been used on all the wheel bolts and a little grease on the wheel bearing is present however there was no corrosion or grease product between the rotor and the hub - just as it should be.

Cheers Craig


----------



## Jac-in-a-Box (Nov 9, 2002)

Gazzer said:


> Dave is it possible to shim the disks in the area to straighten them and then torque them up? i only ask as i do not know if it would be recommended on a brake system. i may be talking absolute trot as i said.......its just when i have installed machine beds etc in the past we have shimmed them to ensure um (micron) precission. (also trying to help the situation)


Not a route I would consider Gazzer...hub to disc mounting mounting face is a pretty small area. The only other thing the OP may consider is turning the disc "one hole around" on the flange.Then he's got two discs that he hasn't confirmed have been fitted in the same positions as on Tom's car, let alone knowing if he has the pads fitted in the same position to each discas on Tom's car, it'll be nigh on impossible.
Add in that it appears he has 4mm wear on the disc I reckon he's close to having to renew anyway.

Craig...I see you've mentioned that 3 garages have confirmed warped discs. I assume that these 3 garages removed calipers, discs and confirmed the hub to disc mounting faces are perfectly clean -first port of call to check? A fair bit of work involved there, minimum 1 hours labour at each, and would've probably cost you close, or more, than the cost of a set of replacement discs?!!

If they haven't, then I'll view them as sceptically as the majority of garages who pronounce "warped discs" without checking fully (or knowing how to) and simply see you as a potential additional source of income.

You've also mentioned "flaking" on the inner faces of the discs? That sounds similar to the problems I experienced on the Boxster discs. That's usually polished corrosion...drilled discs allways seem to have this problem.It's a layer that will come away, flake off, with some gentle tapping with a sharp cold chisel, but will leave you with an unacceptable braking surface. On car machining, if you have sufficient material, is the only solution.

In 30 years odd years of arsing around with cars, I've had plenty of brake judder, but yet to find myself looking at a genuinely warped disc...pad deposition, painfully worn discs and fubared suspension components as a cause, yes! 

And for the avoidance of doubt I'm not taking sides, but I have asked some pertinent questions and not had a direct answer...I'm simply offering advice to the OP's problems 

Dave


----------



## Kprincess (Aug 19, 2012)

keithtd said:


> tom2018 said:
> 
> 
> > Indeedy they have trippled
> ...


I brought an item but didnt fit it for 4 months so I guess I can't do anything or even get a refund from the seller and having said that, you buy an item and its arrived doesn't mean its fitted the same day or does it lol


----------



## Kprincess (Aug 19, 2012)

Cuprabhoy said:


> I appreciate all the posts lads and Tom for joining the conversation. If I may ... this was never a personal attack on Tom as I'm not like that. What I've tried to do is present the facts and the initial reason for creating the post was to ask for feedback and get a solution on the brake judder. Subsequently the judder has been diagnosed by 3 people as warped discs as well as a few other diagnostics without the facts being present!
> 
> I've now taken the alloys off the car and the RHS disc appears to be slightly damaged where the disc is ventilated at the outer circumference. Perhaps they were damaged in transit as the metal is not consistent on the inside of the disc all the way round and it appears flakey as If chipped away!. I'll try to photo this next time the alloys are removed.
> 
> ...


I've had grooved discs on for the past 18 months and barely any signs of a lip and I do drive like a psycho sometimes and brake heavy.


----------



## Kprincess (Aug 19, 2012)

tom2018 said:


> Indeedy they have trippled
> 
> http://www.thettshop.com/performance.as ... uct=600438
> 
> ...


Yes it's a beech that eBay malarkey!.

Proper expensive that. 

Especially when the sellers being a right prat web he knows its him in the wrong for selling damaged goods to me. :x 
I've made a complaint as its a visual one and wasn't mentioned in the selling description and the seller says its not Asda or Argos :lol:


----------



## Skeee (Jun 9, 2009)

Kprincess said:


> I've had grooved discs on for the past 18 months and barely any signs of a lip and I do drive like a psycho sometimes and brake heavy.


 But how many miles have you driven in that time?  Surely your car's been in a garage/repair centre for most of this time? :roll: 


Jac-in-a-Box said:


> At least there is dialogue going on between the two of you.
> I'll go back to my earlier comments regarding the fitting...when the buyer received the kit were the discs marked as left and right and the pads marked as left inner, left outer etc? If they weren't, you have a very good chance of fitting the discs on the wrong sides with mis-matched pads. They must be fitted in the same position as they were on the sellers car, if not I'll guarantee you will have braking problems. Doesn't take too much working out that there will be a fair few permutations of fitting options! Overtightening wheels bolts will distort the hubs and pads, running in this condition will give brake judder. However the distortion is unlilely to be permanent. Recheck the torque of the wheel bolts.
> Ask whoever told you the discs where warped how they arrived at that decision - how did they measure it, what with, what was the runout figure, did they use shortened bolts to secure the disc to the hub with the correct torque before measuring, was the disc/hub mating surfaces spotlessly clean and free from corrosion, burs and grease... I've heard the story countless times from people they've been told by trustworthy garages they have warped discs only to find out it's incorrect fitting and usually caused by crap between hub and disc mounting faces. It'll only take a speck of rust or whatever a few thous of an inch thick to produce large runouts at the periphery of the disc. I'm friendly with a local motor factor who tells me they get a fair few sets of discs returned as faulty (by garages) with warping giving as the reason and has yet to have the manufacturer to agree with the diagnosis - includes Brembo and Brake Engineering who are respected manufacturers in the braking industry. Their reps have visited some of these garages to show them how to fit discs and pads correctly!
> I've a Boxster S with drilled discs which are notorious for developing corrosion on the inner faces only which gives brake judder. I used RJM Engineering in Glenrothes to skim my fronts and rears several years ago - they use the Pro-Cut system and managed my drilled discs without any issues. http://www.rjmpt.co.uk/ Not too far a trip from Edinburgh to Fife?
> ...


I've read on other forums that if you're told the disc is warped then it's usually c%@p as it's nigh on impossible to truly warp brake discs. Corrosion, slight uneven wear, pad glazing etc maybe, but not warping.


----------



## Kprincess (Aug 19, 2012)

Skeee, I know the garage is taking the piss but I've driven 20kmiles since I've had them on


----------



## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

Jac-in-a-Box said:


> Gazzer said:
> 
> 
> > Dave is it possible to shim the disks in the area to straighten them and then torque them up? i only ask as i do not know if it would be recommended on a brake system. i may be talking absolute trot as i said.......its just when i have installed machine beds etc in the past we have shimmed them to ensure um (micron) precission. (also trying to help the situation)
> ...





> The only other thing the OP may consider is turning the disc "one hole around" on the flange.Then he's got two discs that he hasn't confirmed have been fitted in the same positions as on Tom's car, let alone knowing if he has the pads fitted in the same position to each discas on Tom's car, it'll be nigh on impossible.


 first and foremost......Dave has asked were the disks calipers and pads all marked as to what axel and ns or os? if not then as stated it will almost certainly cause a problem?



> Craig...I see you've mentioned that 3 garages have confirmed warped discs. I assume that these 3 garages removed calipers, discs and confirmed the hub to disc mounting faces are perfectly clean -first port of call to check? A fair bit of work involved there, minimum 1 hours labour at each


 yet another very important unanswered question?



> If they haven't, then I'll view them as sceptically as the majority of garages who pronounce "warped discs" without checking fully (or knowing how to) and simply see you as a potential additional source of income.


 so half a days labour to truly strip each one down and check everything, how much did each of these garages charge you for this work bud? if nothing tbh then as Dave has stated.....very sceptical indeed m8. (i will spend 2 minutes max on pricing a job up that they bring to the factory or my time is just wasted)



> In 30 years odd years of arsing around with cars, I've had plenty of brake judder, but yet to find myself looking at a genuinely warped disc...pad deposition, painfully worn discs and fubared suspension components as a cause, yes!


 both Dave and spandy have stated that the chance of warping the disks is very remote, do you have a written report or printout from these garages that give actual data to back up what they say?

like dave i am not taking sides as i hardly know you or Tom, but facts are facts m8ee and Wak would not have continued after the first run if it had bad judder under breaking. (first run is to do data logging prior to mapping) so the kit must have been ok at this point.
were they marked up? if not then Tom's fault simples..........
if they were marked up, have they been fitted to the correct axel and caliper pads match up? if not then your engineers fault.
when a customer tells me there gates arn't working i normally have to hold their hand and ask the same questions time and again to get to the bottom of it. quick example: called out today for an urgent breakdown of a 7.5 metre cantilever gate system i installed maybe four years ago. (gates not working its jumping on the drive cog) i get out there and low and behold...they havn't done as instructed and kept the drive channel clear.........full of tin cans bits of wood etc. all getting dragged back and forth and making the gate rise and fall. now they have a badly worn and damaged drive gear and damaged rollers.
they didn't do as agreed!!!! and this is true in life for everything m8......go back to first base and look at all of the evidence for and against.


----------



## Kprincess (Aug 19, 2012)

I spoke to Audi and they are going to get back to me regards this disc warp speed thingy and will let yot know if they and what they say 
Also going to ask regards used brakes and the effects of them agian IF the wish to disclose info as they tend not to help but will know tomorrow we hope


----------



## A8VCG (May 9, 2011)

All good questions lads but to be honest I don't have an exact diagnosis that i'm 100% confident in. All 3 garages have had the wheels off for inspection and have driven the car but as for a full strip down - No although I had the discs off last night to visually see if there was anything obvious. The only thing I could identify was the inconsistent thickness of the outer circumference where it looked like one of the discs was flaking from the inside where the inner and outer rotors are separated by ventilation.

In total 6 people have now driven the car and they've all said the same thing. That's not me putting words in their mouth they have all said it feels like a rotor. The car also pulls left slightly under braking but an exact cause cannot be determined by a test drive or visual inspection.

With the vibration coming through the pedal and steering wheel over 50mph under braking could it be related to the ABS?

I don't know if they were marked up as I didn't unpack the box - I just supplied it to my technician. I'd imagine that the pads were still present in the calipers so already correctly fitted. The work was done by an ex Seat technician now a master technician for Volvo running their workshop so I sincerely doubt a fault with the fitting.


----------



## Kprincess (Aug 19, 2012)

Sorry everyone, but they didn't even call back and when I called up the solihull branch birmingham again, Marian said she would put a note as a matter of urgency but still nothing which says a lot about that dealership :x


----------



## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

Cuprabhoy said:


> All good questions lads but to be honest I don't have an exact diagnosis that i'm 100% confident in. All 3 garages have had the wheels off for inspection and have driven the car but as for a full strip down - No although I had the discs off last night to visually see if there was anything obvious. The only thing I could identify was the inconsistent thickness of the outer circumference where it looked like one of the discs was flaking from the inside where the inner and outer rotors are separated by ventilation.
> 
> In total 6 people have now driven the car and they've all said the same thing. That's not me putting words in their mouth they have all said it feels like a rotor. The car also pulls left slightly under braking but an exact cause cannot be determined by a test drive or visual inspection.
> 
> ...


Now you can understand why dave and spandy posted bud, the plot thickens and yet the whole truth hasn't come out if your "master technician" fitted incorrectly or a junior actualy did the job?


----------



## A8VCG (May 9, 2011)

After 2 months of pure frustration since fitting my Brembo set up, I have now received the report that I didn't want to hear.

My brakes have now been extensively checked, road tested, spun by hand on the car and importantly now, MEASURED!

Both discs have what is classed as high spots on the surface which means they have lateral inconsistencies.

The run out on the worse of the discs is 0.07 and my mechanic today confirmed this is causing the shudder through the steering wheel and brake pedal which will only be rectified with new front discs.

I'll let you know how it goes with the fitting of the new discs next week and i'm currently waiting for a response from the original seller as I know he was keen to discuss and agree a suitable outcome.

Thank you to the majority of folk that posted useful content in this thread and for your help - Craig


----------



## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

craig 70um microns is nothing m8 i cannot see that would cause the juddering......might be wrong. did they remove disks and check mating faces were clean? the high spot did they show over what distance it is bud? as if it is only over a tiny area then the pad would soon wear that away aswell as the pad wearing down along that running spot.


----------



## A8VCG (May 9, 2011)

Gazzer said:


> craig 70um microns is nothing m8 i cannot see that would cause the juddering......might be wrong. did they remove disks and check mating faces were clean? the high spot did they show over what distance it is bud? as if it is only over a tiny area then the pad would soon wear that away aswell as the pad wearing down along that running spot.


Hi Gaz, The car is at the garage and i'm fairly certain they are measured on the car with the wheels removed. I think the evidence is fairly conclusive and my mechanic has said it definitely needs new front discs. If he says it needs new discs then it will be getting new discs. I won't make the decision lightly but I can't drive about it in like this mate. Consequently i've only done 500 miles since fitting the set up.

As you can imagine i'm not best pleased as I would never have bought the discs had I known they were goosed so whatever way you look at it something is not adding up here.

Once they are off the car would anyone be prepared to inspect them? This would be very useful however the new discs will also paint a picture in terms of whether this does actually rectify the problem.


----------



## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

Cuprabhoy said:


> Gazzer said:
> 
> 
> > craig 70um microns is nothing m8 i cannot see that would cause the juddering......might be wrong. did they remove disks and check mating faces were clean? the high spot did they show over what distance it is bud? as if it is only over a tiny area then the pad would soon wear that away aswell as the pad wearing down along that running spot.
> ...


Craig i hear you bud........ok let me give some logic to it from how i see it.

mechanic who originally fitted them or got a junior guy to fit them as he is the senior and cannot physically do every job. will know they are 2nd hand and cannot prove or disprove that the disks came to you warped or that how they fitted them actually caused it? we have to agree on that point surely........

they check the run out on the car with disks in situ, if i understand you correctly? so i naturally ask myself if one is 70um (microns out) that would have been a major prob to last owner also......ok can see that point in your mechanics logic. however to undo the bolts and drop the disk off would have been a few minutes to prove or disprove if the mating faces were clean or some crap was on the hub causing the run out. so again i have to ask myself why he didnt just do that to check that? the logical answer is he wants to sell you new disks that he gets a 20% mark up on.
my m8 owns cheltenham MOT centre so i know this as fact! so either way you cannot prove or disprove that the guy who sold you the disks in all honesty sold you a lemon...........as your mechanic didn't do the ultimate test to prove or disprove that fact bud. so in other words he has left you as piggy in the middle trying to fight an argument that the original seller can blow holes through all day long in reality. now i don't know the original seller at all, so i am not defending him here, all i am trying to get across is that if i had sold the disks knowing they were in good nick.....and you came to me saying there warped! i would be asking you to get these things checked before asking for money back off me.

the two main questions asked by dave still have not been answered......and several other very inteligent knowledgable guys have asked also.

1: were the disks and calipers marked up as to what axle they came from? have they been fitted on the car in the same sequence?
2: have the mating faces been checked for clenliness?


----------



## A8VCG (May 9, 2011)

Gazzer said:


> Cuprabhoy said:
> 
> 
> > Gazzer said:
> ...


In 20 years Gaz, i've never warped a disc but it's reasonable to assume that the discs have potentially had a hard life prior to being fitted to my car. Let's face it we don't drive like we did when we were 21 which made me wonder when the seller implied that I had warped them the first time i took them out. It's just not adding up! but this should answer some of your questions:

My mechanic is a family friend and he won't be taking any mark up. Not sure that's relevant anyway as I trust him implicitly and we're talking about £20 here (not sure i get your logic). I can confirm that he personally did the work and did this after hours. Do you think he's happy to have my car back at his dealership ? No. He wants the car fixed and 100% so i'm a happy chap and will recommend my friends. Do you think I'm happy being without my car? It;s a royal pain in the yohoo!

There seems to be a lot of focus on whether the discs and pads were marked up. To be honest I didn't open the box but I don't see why the pads would have been removed from the calipers by the TT shop as this is not required. Again though, i'm not certain this is completely relevant as my mechanic spent 7 years with SEAT so is familiar with VAG vehicles... (Perhaps the TT Shop did a swaparoo with the discs as they knew they were being sold on - do you not think this has also entered my mind?!!!! but that is just over-thinking things))

Perhaps you could answer this for me mate? If the discs or pads were fitted on the wrong sides what difference would this really make? Do you think discs just tend to warp if the pads are not correctly aligned or fitted as they once were?The discs are the far tougher material so the pads would bed in to suit the discs & if the pressure isn't right then the pistons adjust to the variance in the thickness of the disc.

I've done approximately 500 miles with a couple of stamps on the breaks but not what i would call nut-case driving or track day exploits. 500 miles on and hey presto the discs are performing as they did on day one and they have a run out of 0.07. That's badly warped for those that don't know ans causing the symptoms i've been describing since day one.

DISCS ARE WARPED, DISCS ARE BEING REPLACED and i'd be more than happy for someone to chip in at this point and offer some specialist / additional check to prove what's going on here.

Sorry for the rant Gaz - I appreciate your input and all I can guarantee is that the discs were warped before they were fitted!


----------



## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

Having 'high spots' isn't proof of warping, especially if that measurement has been made with the discs on the car.

Putting it simply, either the problem is in the discs or it's in the fitting. If it's in the discs, it's not that likely to be warping, so it's probably uneven deposits of material from the pads which means skimming would sort it. If the problem is in the fitting (and you really shouldn't assume that a 'Master Technician' is guaranteed to have fitted them properly - I've seen some shocking displays of stupidity from VAG Master Techs) then the only way to confirm this is measuring off the car.


----------



## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

Craig what have the tts got to do with this? Unless I have missed a post somewhere bud :idea:  I thought they came direct from the seller to you? Or is it the tts who fitted them who has the family friend? 
The only reason I keep asking questions is that it appears that every time you post on it a little more of the story comes out lol. Out of interest what are you doing with the disks afterwards m8? Reason I ask is I have a mate who works in an aerospace company and just for my own satisfaction I wouldn't mind getting my hands on the worst disk and getting it scanned for trueness.


----------



## A8VCG (May 9, 2011)

Gazzer said:


> Craig what have the tts got to do with this? Unless I have missed a post somewhere bud :idea:  I thought they came direct from the seller to you? Or is it the tts who fitted them who has the family friend?
> The only reason I keep asking questions is that it appears that every time you post on it a little more of the story comes out lol. Out of interest what are you doing with the disks afterwards m8? Reason I ask is I have a mate who works in an aerospace company and just for my own satisfaction I wouldn't mind getting my hands on the worst disk and getting it scanned for trueness.


Hi Gaz, it's not more of the story as such - The TT Shop removed the calipers and Discs from Tom's car so they are technically involved so to speak as neither Tom or myself could categorically say they didn't swap the discs over for a wrecked set! I'm not saying that this happened, what i;m saying is that it's possible but it would be extremely shoddy!

Did you see my post above? I'd be delighted to send you the discs so you can have them measured or "scanned"

This wasn't your idea btw - I have pro-actively sought out someone to do this so thanks for volunteering.

Appreciate it mate.

ps - If you like I can add something new everytime I post however it might get somewhat silly.

...& b4 you ask, no I can't remember who the courier was but i'd question the cost of £50 that was quoted by Tom - just throwing that in there to keep it fresh!!


----------



## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

Do love a challenge Craig, so have contacted my ex boss at moog controls in tewkesbury to see when he could do me a favour. Pm received and answered bud.......

Edit: ok just rang him and he is happy to do me a favour and just asks for Craig to sign the disk on both sides please. He will then do a full flatness inspection of the disk face and micro inspection of any indents on mating face or attached debris. This will come with a full printout report From the cmm machine thingy that does this sort of thing lol


----------



## tom2018 (Mar 26, 2011)

Ahh nice to see this topic back after what 2 or 3 months at least since i sold the brakes.

I can gaurentee the tt shop did not swap the disks i was stood next to them in there work shop when they came of my car.

Also £50 for brake calipers and disks and pads insured for £600 with tracking and next day delivery?? Have a look i think it cost more than that? Feel free to claim on insurance but i think youv left it to long?

Also you said you never opened the box when you recived the item?. Why not everyone checks a delivery??

Also disks were seperated eack one on the correct side of the box with its caliper and pads still in them, so that shouldnt be a problem for fitting, unless the master mechanic decided to swap them round or muddle them up?? If so sorry but not my problem?

Again as others have said if its one disk thats a few microns out then its probz down to pad deposits on the disks again not alot i can do about that its a fact of life with brakes and if you buy second had brakes its always going to be a risk, but most people accept that for a £600 saving? And i no you will say its not the point, and fair enough but at the end of the day if you want 100% gaurenteed hastle free purchases just buy things at full retail price in this case around £1200???

Thanks for all the people who are sticking up for me, as i realy belive i havnt done anything wrong and have never had an issue with selling anything to anyone before.

Tom


----------



## A8VCG (May 9, 2011)

tom2018 said:


> Ahh nice to see this topic back after what 2 or 3 months at least since i sold the brakes.
> 
> I can gaurentee the tt shop did not swap the disks i was stood next to them in there work shop when they came of my car.
> 
> ...


Did you expect it to just disappear Tom? It is a Forum after all,, discussing all issues that are TT related.

I've got nothing to hide and that's why I have asked for an independent inspection as you can't get any more transparent that this. Gaz has kindly offered to take this one up so if his report comes back all clear then I'll hold my hands up and say I got it wrong.

I'm not sure what difference it makes whether I opened the box or not. The reason I said I didn't open the box is because i didn't open the box. Not sure this is relevant.

I find the tone of your statement about buying second hand brakes somewhat strange but I'll leave that up to others to discuss - what a strange thing to say especially as we were both doing a deal that suited us both. What was the reason you bought them used again? (that's right, same as myself!)

Anyway new discs going on this week after they were measured last week.


----------



## Hark (Aug 23, 2007)

You bought second hand brakes and found that the disks need skimming or replacing?

A pain in the ass I agree, but 8 pages? Jesus.

The ones I bought (Also a Brembo GT kit) needed repainting. This ended up fuking the seals up and I needed to buy news seals from the US. Disks are about £100 so you've still saved loads of cash. My disks on that setup lasted 18 months anyway, so don't kid yourself that they'll last a long time anyway.

As for saying the TT Shop 'might' have swapped them for a dodgy set and kept a used set for themselves is borderline liable and I'm suprised they are not on here telling you as much.


----------



## A8VCG (May 9, 2011)

Hark said:


> You bought second hand brakes and found that the disks need skimming or replacing? That's right and having spoken to a specialist the fact that they are x-drilled means they must be skimmed twice. The majority of places wouldn't entertain skimming x-drilled discs.
> 
> A pain in the ass I agree, but 8 pages? Jesus. It's a forum - you have a choice to read or ignore. Appreciate your post though as we'll soon be on 9!
> 
> ...


 That's not what I said - what I said was I couldn't guarantee anything as I wasn't there - there's a difference and Tom has cleared this up already as he was there. There's a very good thread raving about the TT shop on a weekly basis and I would have no hesitation in using them personally if that was geographically possible. You've taken what I said way out of context...It was hearsay and has already been cleared up. I could say the same about the comments about my mechanic but I'm not.

Had I opened the box on delivery do you think i would have been able to see a warped disc with a run out of 0.07 ? No, however i'm sure someone would have been quick to say that I didn't open the parcel correctly!

Lastly Hark, if you wouldn't mind just keep it clean as I've not been throwing around the F-word so would appreciate a clean thread. Nice car btw - I've always liked the VX220


----------



## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

Cuprabhoy said:


> tom2018 said:
> 
> 
> > Ahh nice to see this topic back after what 2 or 3 months at least since i sold the brakes.
> ...


Craig see it from toms point of view he has had Keith slating him and then back tracking to again attack him to give you bucks back when no proof had been shown by then. ( so yes I assume he is a tad pee'd off lol )
So I have it booked for a flatness check over the surface of the disk/s that will be done on the Renishaw CMM scanners. So it will be told where left right and top bottom are and the face of the disk........and it goes into auto mode and blips around giving a flatness check with a full print out that will be dated and signed with pictures added from me. Btw 70um microns isn't a high spot to these machines but a bloody mountain range!!!


----------



## Hark (Aug 23, 2007)

Just don't think it needed insinuating to be honest. (Just my 2p) Anyway I hope your new disks sort it, as it's not nice seeing 8 pages off ill feeling. I do feel for you though. I had many great buying experiences on here but one very nasty one where I lot alot of money. Sort it and put it behind you though mate as it's horrible hanging over you.

On a fairly unrelated note, why drilled disks? For the asthetics or something else?

I was told by APS that they cost more, don't do anything world changing in far as temperature management and destroy pads faster. The hole also fill with brake dust. They do look pretty though.

Wouldn't a set of plain disks be a cheaper option?

Thanks for the comments on the VX.


----------



## A8VCG (May 9, 2011)

[/quote]Craig see it from toms point of view he has had Keith slating him and then back tracking to again attack him to give you bucks back when no proof had been shown by then. ( so yes I assume he is a tad pee'd off lol )
So I have it booked for a flatness check over the surface of the disk/s that will be done on the Renishaw CMM scanners. So it will be told where left right and top bottom are and the face of the disk........and it goes into auto mode and blips around giving a flatness check with a full print out that will be dated and signed with pictures added from me. Btw 70um microns isn't a high spot to these machines but a bloody mountain range!!![quote\]

Well this will definitely bring some closure to the thread although there's probably some useful content here for others that may experience similar symptoms. It wasn't my intention for the thread to go off-track at various points and I actually sent Keith a PM and asked for it to be toned down a bit because as you say there was no proof at that point. Some prevalent points were highlighted though.

My concern after the rotors have been on the CMM scanner is that all it really proves is that at this moment in time the discs either true or not. What does everyone think about that ?


----------



## tom2018 (Mar 26, 2011)

A the end of the day if the disks are warped but they were fine on my car im not sure what to do, i dont want slating on this post as im just putting my thoughts out there.

If they are warped or have pad deposits on etc, is this my problem as a seller even though they were fine on my car as i have said all along.

Again there seem to be alot of varibles not by me, ie postage, fitment, correct disks with correct pads, how they have been driven when fitted etc, im just not sure that i should be asked to stump up the cost of new disks and pads with all these questions?

Thanks to gazzer for gettingthe disks tested, but again all that proves is yes they are waped or pad deposits etc on them if that is what the machine says? Doesnt prove how or why it happend or when?

Also iv been away on holiday thats why i havnt read any messages and im not replying to pms as its easier to put stuff on here for others to view, i seem to get a fairer feedback and more compleat answers from you?

And yes i am a little pissed of at other forum members slating me when no one has proved i have done anything wrong or acted in ill faith etc, and the fact that i didnt hear anything from ou for around a month on the matter then all of a sudden i get a pm sayingthe disks have been confermed as being 70 microns out and you asking me to call you to sort it out, as again id rather it was done in public for the reasons stated above

Tom


----------



## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

To be completely honest, I think it's too much to expect refunds on wear-items like discs/pads. In my opinion you should have negotiated a price that you'd be happy to pay for the callipers alone, then if the discs/pads turned out to be decent it would have just been a bonus. At the very least, you should expect to skim the discs and get new pads so you can be sure they're run in correctly according to the manufacturers instructions (rather than just hammered at every junction, which is what I suspect most people do immediately after fitting their BBK).

By the way, there are places that will skim drilled discs (Pro-cut make the skimming machine seen on Wheeler Dealers and you can search for your nearest workshop on their site: http://www.skimmydiscs.co.uk/). Assuming they're not too worn to skim (2mm lip sounds pretty worn to me) this whole thread could have been avoided for around £30 a disc and as I said, I think this is something you should have budgeted for from the beginning.


----------



## A8VCG (May 9, 2011)

Spandex said:


> To be completely honest, I think it's too much to expect refunds on wear-items like discs/pads. In my opinion you should have negotiated a price that you'd be happy to pay for the callipers alone, then if the discs/pads turned out to be decent it would have just been a bonus. At the very least, you should expect to skim the discs and get new pads so you can be sure they're run in correctly according to the manufacturers instructions (rather than just hammered at every junction, which is what I suspect most people do immediately after fitting their BBK).
> 
> By the way, there are places that will skim drilled discs (Pro-cut make the skimming machine seen on Wheeler Dealers and you can search for your nearest workshop on their site: http://www.skimmydiscs.co.uk/). Assuming they're not too worn to skim (2mm lip sounds pretty worn to me) this whole thread could have been avoided for around £30 a disc and as I said, I think this is something you should have budgeted for from the beginning.


This has nothing to do with budgeting - If you are sold something that doesn't function as expected you would do exactly what i'm doing here. I'm happy to play this out in public and I've already stated that I would hold my hands up if i was wrong. All I'm doing is displaying the facts.

The reason I started the thread the day after driving the car was to highlight my symptoms and seek advice. What you can't argue with is that i have taken on board the advice at every juncture - DTi measurements provided above etc. I've also been through the skimming scenario. To recap:

The majority of places contacted said that skimming x-drilled discs would ruin their machines. Following a useful link passed on I then tracked down the a garage with the specialist machine who told me the discs would need to be done twice. The cost of this was £75 each time for both sides so coming to £150.

I'm not sure what else I can say apart from it's a difficult situation for both of us and not one I am enjoying but I personally feel hard done by. If the kit as sold with the caveat of "needing to replace the discs" then I wouldn't of went ahead as I had a brand new set of front 334mm discs ready to go on my car before I saw Tom's advert, so I made sure I was very thorough in asking questions about his kit.

The calipers themselves are in very good condition and I'm happy to state this but that's NOT the point of the thread.

Edit - Additionally, there was no hammering at every junction as stated


----------



## Hark (Aug 23, 2007)

In the original discussion prior to sale did you ask about the wear/lip on the disk?

As if it had come back saying they had a 2mm lip, I'd have presumed they would need changing anyway.


----------



## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

Cuprabhoy said:


> This has nothing to do with budgeting - If you are sold something that doesn't function as expected you would do exactly what i'm doing here. I'm happy to play this out in public and I've already stated that I would hold my hands up if i was wrong. All I'm doing is displaying the facts.


When I say 'budgeting', I'm saying that when buying used brakes, you should allow for the fact that it's impossible for the seller to accurately describe the condition of the discs beyond a visual inspection which, as we've all seen, can't tell you everything about their true condition. Hence, you should expect to either skim or replace any 2nd hand discs and should *budget accordingly* (i.e. negotiate the price down to cover this expense).



Cuprabhoy said:


> Edit - Additionally, there was no hammering at every junction as stated


My point wasn't that you'd have done it, but that when buying *any* 2nd hand brakes, you have no way to know how they've been broken in, so you should expect to get them skimmed and fit new pads as a minimum. If they don't need it, then it's a bonus.

At the end of the day, neither the seller or the TT Shop felt anything unusual with the brakes before they were removed, which means they've done pretty much everything they can reasonably do to ensure they're as described when you bought them. If this was a purchase from a commercial used parts dealer, you'd have every right to expect a refund, but when you make a private purchase, you need to change your expectations accordingly.


----------



## A8VCG (May 9, 2011)

Spandex said:


> Cuprabhoy said:
> 
> 
> > This has nothing to do with budgeting - If you are sold something that doesn't function as expected you would do exactly what i'm doing here. I'm happy to play this out in public and I've already stated that I would hold my hands up if i was wrong. All I'm doing is displaying the facts.
> ...


So you're saying that after asking all the questions about the condition of the pads, calipers and discs I should still expect to skim the discs when they are described as being in good and fit for purpose condition. Am i missing something here because that just sounds completely rediculous!

Now, had it been explained that the discs needed to be replaced then there would of been no point in buying them and I would have negotiated with Tom a price for calipers and hoses.

I think this reposnse is completely missing the point i'm afraid!


----------



## A8VCG (May 9, 2011)

Hark said:


> In the original discussion prior to sale did you ask about the wear/lip on the disk?
> 
> As if it had come back saying they had a 2mm lip, I'd have presumed they would need changing anyway.


I didn't want to down this route but this is a copy of the actual correspondence:

Re: MK1 V6 Brembo Upgrade on a budget
Sent: 21 Jan 2013, 01:04
by tom2018

All boxed up for you, and courier said should pick them up tomorow weather dependant as they have a back log, if not will be tuesday.

Pads have plently of meat left and disks hardly have a lip on them either so look all good for you .

Iv just changed to my standard brakes n they are so shit compared to the brembos lol they realy are a great brake set up and worked so well on the car

Tom


----------



## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

Cuprabhoy said:


> So you're saying that after asking all the questions about the condition of the pads, calipers and discs I should still expect to skim the discs when they are described as being in good and fit for purpose condition. Am i missing something here because that just sounds completely rediculous!
> 
> Now, had it been explained that the discs needed to be replaced then there would of been no point in buying them and I would have negotiated with Tom a price for calipers and hoses.
> 
> I think this reposnse is completely missing the point i'm afraid!


Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. You have seen yourself that the tolerances with brake discs are so tight that it's perfectly possible not to know there was something wrong with the discs. Personally, for that reason I wouldn't buy 2nd hand discs, but if I did I'd plan on getting them skimmed and fitting new pads straight away just for my own peace of mind.


----------



## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

only my 2p worth,,,, to me buying 2nd hand discs is a dogy business which i would rather shy away from,, however if they were something special at a good price i may consider it but would want a pretty cast iron guarantee on their condition,,, ( i wonder if the person who sold them has actually experienced them driving the car on the road or just that they looked / seemed ok in the workshop )........ depending on how much, lets say over one hundred, i would be looking for a refund if they were not as the ,clearly defined , description............... ( have you tried West of Scotland engineering in glasgow for machining )


----------



## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

Spandex said:


> Cuprabhoy said:
> 
> 
> > So you're saying that after asking all the questions about the condition of the pads, calipers and discs I should still expect to skim the discs when they are described as being in good and fit for purpose condition. Am i missing something here because that just sounds completely rediculous!
> ...


spandy, if someone says there is hardly a lip on the disks then first thing through mind is they are pretty new and unsoiled. if the TT shop thought the disks were unsalable then they would have been on by now to say so as their name has been brought up in this.


----------



## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

Gazzer said:


> Spandex said:
> 
> 
> > Cuprabhoy said:
> ...


"Hardly a lip" doesn't tell you a thing without measurements. What I call a lip isn't necessarily the same as what other people call a lip. Not the best description, but if you buy discs based on that, you cant then complain that the lip was bigger than you thought it would be.

As you say, the TT Shop didn't find anything wrong with them, so honestly, what more could the seller have done?


----------



## A8VCG (May 9, 2011)

Spandy, I'd hate to taylor you a suit, that's all I can say! The lip within reason isn't necessarily a problem if the discs are true as the reason a disc has a lip is because the pad misses the outer edge of the rotor and therefore it doesn't wear down like the contact surface area. The real issue here is the run outs on the contact area. These run-outs have not been caused by me and were present since day one after fitting.

When Tom says they "look all good for you" does this still imply they require to be skimmed in your opinion?

Had I been the seller, I would of been mortified that something I had sold was causing so much trouble and would of treated it like a business complaint rather than slag off the buyer, his driving style and his mechanic!


----------



## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

Cuprabhoy said:


> Spandy, I'd hate to taylor you a suit, that's all I can say! The lip within reason isn't necessarily a problem if the discs are true as the reason a disc has a lip is because the pad misses the outer edge of the rotor and therefore it doesn't wear down like the contact surface area. The real issue here is the run outs on the contact area. These run-outs have not been caused by me and were present since day one after fitting.
> 
> When Tom says they "look all good for you" does this still imply they require to be skimmed in your opinion?
> 
> Had I been the seller, I would of been mortified that something I had sold was causing so much trouble and would of treated it like a business complaint rather than slag off the buyer, his driving style and his mechanic!


If I bought a suit based on a description that basically said "looks about your size, I guess", I wouldn't be complaining that it didn't fit properly when it arrived..

"look all good for you" tells you absolutely nothing about the surface of the discs (unless you honestly thought he might have spotted some 0.07mm high spots with his magic eyes) so yes, regardless of the sellers comments, I would expect to get the discs skimmed and new pads fitted.

I think your comment about a 'business complaint' is really the crux of the problem. You've bought something 2nd hand from a private individual. You can't expect to hold them to the same standards as a company. They're not in a position to examine the brakes beyond a visual inspection, and you should take that into account when judging their condition.


----------



## A8VCG (May 9, 2011)

Thanks for your opinion Spandy. My quote about treating the complaint like a business transaction refers to the level of integrity that I operate at and expect. I completely agree with you that this differes from individual to individual but when you feel strongly about something then in this case I'm happy to discuss it, take some heat and give my opinion backed up by the facts. We clearly have differing degrees of what's right and wrong & thats fine. We agree to disagree on this.

Going back to your point about skimming discs, the cost for skimming the discs using the pro-cut machine was £150. Had I expected for them to need skimmed then I would most definately not have taken them - get the logic because I don't get yours i'm afraid.


----------



## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

The fact that you didn't expect to skim a set of used brake discs is a failing in your knowledge, not a failing on the part of the seller.

What this comes down to is you think that even though the seller AND the independent company who tested the brakes found no issues, they should refund you. I disagree, and so does the law. At least this car crash of a thread serves as a good warning to everyone else not to buy used brake discs.


----------



## tom2018 (Mar 26, 2011)

At the end of the day i ca t see a 0.07mm size lump on the disks or whatever it is, the brakes were fine on my car if the wobble is as bad as you say im sure i would of noticed it as it was my daily driver. I said not much of a lip i didnt consider 2mm to be much of a lip or very easily measured accuratly by the a ruler etc at home. The pads did as discribed have lots of meat on them left and i had no reason to belive the disks were or are any diffrent.

As said i wouldnt of known to skim used disks either and i was as honest as i could be in my discription and photos etc to you.

Also i was after £600 plus postage for them, i no you will say it was a price that suited us both etc but you got them for £550 including postage @ £50 so you got effectivly £100 off them in the first place.

The problem is im no expert on brakes and only discribed them to you to the best of my knowledge which is what the law i belive requires me to do.

Tom


----------



## tom2018 (Mar 26, 2011)

As were into quoting each other

"Not much else to say here really apart from ask if you'll consider partially refunding me after I've investigated the fault and had it fixed. Bit of a nightmare but I suppose it's a pitfall of buying used parts/"

As you said your self a pitfall of buying used parts, hence the big diffrence in price from new??

Another quote

"Hi Tom, just a quick note to thank you again for the Brembo's. I got the car back on Thursday and the brakes feel great.

Hows the focus?!

Cheers Craig"

They were fine on the first day you had them??
Also i posted them 21st of jan you didnt fit them untill 30th of march ish and its now end of may so youv had them 4months??

Tom


----------



## tom2018 (Mar 26, 2011)

roddy said:


> only my 2p worth,,,, to me buying 2nd hand discs is a dogy business which i would rather shy away from,, however if they were something special at a good price i may consider it but would want a pretty cast iron guarantee on their condition,,, ( i wonder if the person who sold them has actually experienced them driving the car on the road or just that they looked / seemed ok in the workshop )........ depending on how much, lets say over one hundred, i would be looking for a refund if they were not as the ,clearly defined , description............... ( have you tried West of Scotland engineering in glasgow for machining )


Yes they were fitted to my car so i no exsactly what they were like and they were 100% fine as car was my daily driver so would of noticed im sure if there had been such a serious issue with them as craig is staiting

Also if you want a cast iron garentee thats when you go to the shop pay your £1400 not buying them second hand for £550

And they as far as i was aware compleatly matching the discription in the for sale notice and in the emails between me and craig, as i have said in the post above, i can only go as far as looking at them with photos for the discription i wasnt asked to measure the lip or get them scanned or checked over etc so i didnt? And as far as im aware they didnt need it

Tom


----------



## A8VCG (May 9, 2011)

Spandex said:


> The fact that you didn't expect to skim a set of used brake discs is a failing in your knowledge, not a failing on the part of the seller.
> 
> What this comes down to is you think that even though the seller AND the independent company who tested the brakes found no issues, they should refund you. I disagree, and so does the law. At least this car crash of a thread serves as a good warning to everyone else not to buy used brake discs.


Like I said above - we agree to disagree on any expectation that one would be required to skim discs when they were "quoted" as "good condition". What are you actually doing at this stage to help either the seller or myself? To predict that after buying a used Brembo kit, that I would of needed to skim the discs is somewhat strange and I can't articulate how bizarre a statement you've made here.

Are you ok?

Although the brakes were removed by the TT Shop they were not independently checked by the TT Shop. I'm not sure where you got this from so please enlighten me here! Tom's car was driven to diagnose another fault and the test drive had nothing to do with his brakes. All you're really doing here is posting the same point over and over and I've already thanked you for your participation but it's somewhat one dimensional !


----------



## A8VCG (May 9, 2011)

tom2018 said:


> As were into quoting each other
> 
> "Not much else to say here really apart from ask if you'll consider partially refunding me after I've investigated the fault and had it fixed. Bit of a nightmare but I suppose it's a pitfall of buying used parts/"
> 
> ...


I think what this shows is that I'm actually very reasonable and also the first to pass on positive feedback Tom. The first day I drove the car was stop start across town and never above 30mph. The next day on a 55 mile trip was when the fault was actually identified when lightly braking at 70mph on the motorway. That's your point put into perspective but you know this already as I emailled you the next day. Why don't you post that?


----------



## tom2018 (Mar 26, 2011)

So what was the point quoting me as all you have said is that i described the disks as accuratly as i could?? Which is what i told you, yet you still arnt happy due to an issue that could be caused by anything as we have already discused, i dont realy see the point in this thread, as your obviously not happy, i dont want to refund you money for brakes which when they left me worked fine?? Its just going around in circles?

As iv said, next time you buy something and you want a 100% garentee on it pay the full price and buy it new

As i still think that for what £700 you have as good as new brembo calipers brand new disks and pads, youv still saved what £500 on a new kit and it will last you for ages

I obviously have a diffrent outlook on things than you, but it seems others on here are also of similer outlook as me??

Tom


----------



## A8VCG (May 9, 2011)

tom2018 said:


> So what was the point quoting me as all you have said is that i described the disks as accuratly as i could?? Which is what i told you, yet you still arnt happy due to an issue that could be caused by anything as we have already discused, i dont realy see the point in this thread, as your obviously not happy, i dont want to refund you money for brakes which when they left me worked fine?? Its just going around in circles?
> 
> As iv said, next time you buy something and you want a 100% garentee on it pay the full price and buy it new
> 
> ...


Hello Tom, new discs being fitted tomorrow so i'll continue to update the thread all the way through from start to finish.

I quoted you as you stated there was barely any lip on the discs yet I think when I measure them they will actually be approaching their minimum tolerance. You can't sell something in good condition that is nearing the very end of its life and in need of immediate replacing.


----------



## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

Cuprabhoy said:


> Like I said above - we agree to disagree on any expectation that one would be required to skim discs when they were "quoted" as "good condition". What are you actually doing at this stage to help either the seller or myself? To predict that after buying a used Brembo kit, that I would of needed to skim the discs is somewhat strange and I can't articulate how bizarre a statement you've made here.
> 
> Are you ok?
> 
> Although the brakes were removed by the TT Shop they were not independently checked by the TT Shop. I'm not sure where you got this from so please enlighten me here! Tom's car was driven to diagnose another fault and the test drive had nothing to do with his brakes. All you're really doing here is posting the same point over and over and I've already thanked you for your participation but it's somewhat one dimensional !


I was going to reply to this properly, but as you say, what's the point. Hopefully either you've learned never to buy used brake discs again, or everyone else here has learned never to sell them to you. Either one should do it.


----------



## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

Can we stop the tit for tat posts until I receive the disks and can get them scanned ( maximum of a week) then I shall post up pictures and read outs that will prove or disprove if the disks are actually warped! Be patient and stop the slating guys. I will be doing this in my own time in the evening as he works 2-10 shift as Forman and I will have to go after work when he is free.


----------



## A8VCG (May 9, 2011)

Gazzer said:


> Can we stop the tit for tat posts until I receive the disks and can get them scanned ( maximum of a week) then I shall post up pictures and read outs that will prove or disprove if the disks are actually warped! Be patient and stop the slating guys. I will be doing this in my own time in the evening as he works 2-10 shift as Forman and I will have to go after work when he is free.


She started it  (just joking folks!)


----------



## A8VCG (May 9, 2011)

Hello folks, I picked the car up tonight after work and brought her home the long way via the City Bypass which is a 20 mile run on the motorway on the south of the city. The anticipation of shudder free brakes for the first time in 3 months was playing on my mind all day at work.

I'm really pleased to say the new discs and pads went on today and the pedal is smooth and the judder has gone. 

This has been hanging over me now for 3 months and I've really hated some of the hostility contained in this thread but the silver lining is that Ruby is back and I'm certainly in better spirits.

Thanks for all the decent contributions guys here, it's much appreciated. The last thing that remains is for Gazzer to scan the old discs and post the results.

Cheers for now -Craig


----------



## gogs (Dec 22, 2010)

Congrats Craig, glad she's running as intended ;-)


----------



## A8VCG (May 9, 2011)

Comments anyone?


----------



## V6RUL (May 28, 2009)

Seller should know better, especially if he watched them coming off his car, mis-representation in sales ad.

Your mechanic should have warned you before fitting, un-professional.

That's bad and I would not fit them until skimmed or replaced.

Steve


----------



## tom2018 (Mar 26, 2011)

What do you mean i should no better, both disks look exsactly the same and were when i fitted to my car with no issues.

I just want an end to this now guys im fed up with all this

I have made an offer to craig just waiting to hear the outcome of that from him

Tom


----------



## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

The manufacturer recommends that run-out is tested when the discs are fitted and that the discs are rotated until the run-out is within tolerance (0.1mm) or shimmed if rotation doesn't fix it. Seeing as the run-out wasn't even looked at until the OP complained, can we assume the recommended install procedure wasn't followed? Can we also asssume that the discs were never rotated or shimmed to fix any run-out issues (Which are commonplace and caused by uneven mating surfaces, not warped discs).

Everyone is just assuming that the install is faultless because it was done by a 'master' tech. It seems pretty clear to me that these weren't tested and adjusted during the install, so why is this not the focus of this investigation? Why is it ok for the OP to simply state "they are installed ok, so it must be the sellers fault"?


----------



## A8VCG (May 9, 2011)

Spandex said:


> The manufacturer recommends that run-out is tested when the discs are fitted and that the discs are rotated until the run-out is within tolerance (0.1mm) or shimmed if rotation doesn't fix it. Seeing as the run-out wasn't even looked at until the OP complained, can we assume the recommended install procedure wasn't followed? Can we also asssume that the discs were never rotated or shimmed to fix any run-out issues (Which are commonplace and caused by uneven mating surfaces, not warped discs).
> 
> Everyone is just assuming that the install is faultless because it was done by a 'master' tech. It seems pretty clear to me that these weren't tested and adjusted during the install, so why is this not the focus of this investigation? Why is it ok for the OP to simply state "they are installed ok, so it must be the sellers fault"?


Spandex, all the shims in the world wouldn't of made a blind bit of difference in this instance but I could of done with this information about 3 months ago. What I do agree with is with Steve's point above in terms of whether the discs should have been fitted in the first instance given the damage to the inside of the "enamel / rotors" I'll have this conversation with my tech on this element. Rest assured I will as well!

If you consider that the kit was installed however the issue was only apparent over 45-50mph i think this answers your main point about testing. In fact, I drove the car home and the brakes felt good and it was only the next day on the motorway that the vibration was really noticeable and feedback was present through the steering and brake pedal. In this respect it was most definitely dependent on speed and at low speed it was completely unoticeable.

Tom and I have remained in contact over the last 3 months and it has been a challenge for us both. Fortunately my car is now back to how it should be after the new parts were fitted. Tom has made the kind gesture of a partial refund and I have accepted this so we both now consider the matter to be closed. I will go back to a previous point that I made and state that there is some useful content on this thread and it is not a "car-crash" as you noted.

So all things aside, thanks for your post - I hope we can be friends again and I look forward to participating in more positive threads in the future.

With best regards

Craig


----------



## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

The information is on the Brembo website, so was available to you 3 months ago. Your 'master' tech should have known this anyway. The point is, run-out is a possibility in any install, even with new discs, so they should be tested (with a gauge, not a test drive) and adjustments made. Why you think a 0.07mm run-out is unfixable with shims, I don't know - it's not considered a large amount and is actually within Brembos stated tolerances. Chances are it could have been fixed by simply rotating the discs, although I doubt this was attempted, seeing as you'd already decided it was a fault with the discs by the time you got the run-out tested.

The problem I have with this thread is that early on you decided the fault had to be with the discs and not the install, and from that point on you refused to get the install looked at.

Out of curiosity, will you be returning the partial refund if Gazzers testing shows the discs not to be warped?


----------



## A8VCG (May 9, 2011)

So what you're saying is that every install of a new brake set should me measured with a DTi Guage for possible run out?

I'm sure everyone on the Forum has their own thoughts about this and I'm not sure any of them agree with you. I've actually done a brake install on a mk2 golf gti - all be it, 15 years ago and it was fine. By fine, I mean safe at all speeds. This was a spot of DIY but there was no need to measure run out or have any type of diagnostics because it was fine. *Fine at all speeds!*

Some of your comments are completely left field and you think you are being clever picking up on the very slightest of detail and really you aren't doing yourself any favours. There's quite a few people sending me PM slating your comments [smiley=bomb.gif] however they don't want to do it in public because this thread is a fairly detailled and complex a scenario.

So after seeing the discs are you telling me that the run out could have been fixed and should have been attempted? I beg to differ. These discs were at the very end of their life & should not have been sold FULLSTOP (even the seller agrees on this point)There's many side issues to coincide with this since the install that you seem so intent on questioning but the fact remains the discs were not fit for any use.

Your last question - NO!


----------



## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

No, *Brembo* are saying every install should be done with a DTI gauge:

http://bremboaftermarket.com/en/car_disc_catalogue/Instructions_Installation.aspx

I'm sure loads of installs get done without this attention to detail, but the fact that they recommend it for new discs should tell you that run-out isn't considered a symptom of faulty discs. It's a possibility in any install and they have clear instructions on how to deal with it.

As for those pictures, I can't tell a bloody thing from a photo, let alone a low res one and regardless, no one can remotely diagnose your problems for you. If they're so bad though, perhaps you should be asking your trusted 'master' tech why he installed a pair of discs which were so obviously at the end of their life without mentioning it to you.

I actually have no idea whether the run-out can be fixed (and lets be honest, neither do you), but what concerns me is that no one has even tried.


----------



## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

so,,there we have it,,,,,,,,, funnily enough i have fitted many many sets of discs to my cars, both new and used, and never done any DTi tests, and have not had any problems with ones which i thot were ok,, i have had problems , expectedly , with ones which i have thot to be suspect and should not really be fitting anyway,,,,,,,, so why a "master tech "shoud fit dodgey ones i cannot imagine ,,,maye next time you should take your car to a good old fashioned mechanic and not someone who relies on a fancy title to get their work,,, i am always suspicous of people who come with titles like master, expert etc


----------



## spaceplace (Mar 10, 2013)

no one checks discs with a dti when fitting, not anywhere i've worked or seen anyway, as for shimming out a warped disc? thats a no, if the disc is warped its either in the bin with them or get them skimmed at a enginering place


----------



## keithtd (Aug 22, 2007)

Lots of people on here with excellent advice but some, no names mentioned, offer 'opinions' which more often than not based on partial facts (but they still think they're qualified to make them). More worrying is something I see on here far too regularly which is when advice/opinions are offered by people who think they're qualified engineers because they've changed a wheel, welded a bit of metal or worked a lathe. That's fine if you're not talking about major components but many parts of a car require serious knowledge of engineering and offering advice on such things if you're not qualified is wholly irresponsible.
By the way people talk and suggestions they make you can tell a mile off whether they know anything about engineering i.e. whether their advice carries any weight - Spandex yours doesn't I'm afraid.


----------



## keithtd (Aug 22, 2007)

Gazzer said:


> Can we stop the tit for tat posts until I receive the disks and can get them scanned ( maximum of a week) then I shall post up pictures and read outs that will prove or disprove if the disks are actually warped! Be patient and stop the slating guys. I will be doing this in my own time in the evening as he works 2-10 shift as Forman and I will have to go after work when he is free.


Don't know what you mean 'scanned' can you explain. :?:


----------



## gogs (Dec 22, 2010)

Guys as the seller and buyer have come to an agreement, I agree with Craig that the matter should now be closed, regardless of fault on either side these two guys have come to an arrangement so lets leave it at that and move on.


----------



## spaceplace (Mar 10, 2013)

gogs said:


> Guys as the seller and buyer have come to an agreement, I agree with Craig that the matter should now be closed, regardless of fault on either side these two guys have come to an arrangement so lets leave it at that and move on.


noooooo, lets have a fight! best of 3 rounds, anything goes. first to kill the other one wins some brake fluid


----------



## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

keithtd said:


> Gazzer said:
> 
> 
> > Can we stop the tit for tat posts until I receive the disks and can get them scanned ( maximum of a week) then I shall post up pictures and read outs that will prove or disprove if the disks are actually warped! Be patient and stop the slating guys. I will be doing this in my own time in the evening as he works 2-10 shift as Forman and I will have to go after work when he is free.
> ...


Read back Keith to understand.......simples


----------



## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

keithtd said:


> Lots of people on here with excellent advice but some, no names mentioned, offer 'opinions' which more often than not based on partial facts (but they still think they're qualified to make them). More worrying is something I see on here far too regularly which is when advice/opinions are offered by people who think they're qualified engineers because they've changed a wheel, welded a bit of metal or worked a lathe. That's fine if you're not talking about major components but many parts of a car require serious knowledge of engineering and offering advice on such things if you're not qualified is wholly irresponsible.
> By the way people talk and suggestions they make you can tell a mile off whether they know anything about engineering i.e. whether their advice carries any weight - Spandex yours doesn't I'm afraid.


I so want to answer this but I will leave it as a omg.


----------



## JoshyTT (Apr 27, 2013)

ive just read 11 pages.... 

i really enjoyed it and glad it had a happy ending.

still think you left it along time before trying to resolve an issue and in fairness tom has been very forgiving surely by opening the box on arrival and inspecting the discs properly you could have returned them after a few days or even after you master technician had viewed them he should of said send them back in which case tom probably would of offered a full refund i would of! after a few months its a different story alot can happen in 3 months luckily you both seem honest people and it was resolved which is the main thing.

anyway you should cut down on your track days doesnt do the discs any good :lol: :lol:

glad your cars back to normal nothing worse, gets you down like 3 days on the beer. [smiley=cheers.gif]


----------



## keithtd (Aug 22, 2007)

Gazzer said:


> keithtd said:
> 
> 
> > Gazzer said:
> ...


I've read the thread mate, but what exactly do you mean 'scanned?' Not a difficult question.
The reason I ask is that Renishaw don't make CMM's only add-ons and '70um microns' is not a measurement, and do you mean scanned with a laser or probed.
By the way as an 'engineer' you must know that this is not how you determine whether a disc is warped.


----------



## nott (Apr 6, 2013)

I've read the thread mate, but what exactly do you mean 's16435627685canned?' Not a difficult question.[/quote][/quote]

Yes I think Gazzer should post his findings in brakegate


----------



## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

Keith, the CMM machines at Moog are fully equiped with renishaw probes that can determin tolerances of +- 1um. how it will be determined the disk is flat or warped is basically by firstly determining if the mating face is free of debris and then using calibrated blocks on a calibrated bed of granite the face is probed to determine the flatness of it by taking readings at various areas. i use to program the old machine they had but that was over 10 years ago, so am way out of my depth now on that side.
a full print out of the flatness will be printed out and i shall post a picture of those findings to show what was found.
so my terminology was incorrect in saying scanned instead of probed.


----------



## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

whatever will they think of next  !!!!!!!!!


----------



## keithtd (Aug 22, 2007)

Gazzer said:


> Keith, the CMM machines at Moog are fully equiped with renishaw probes that can determin tolerances of +- 1um. how it will be determined the disk is flat or warped is basically by firstly determining if the mating face is free of debris and then using calibrated blocks on a calibrated bed of granite the face is probed to determine the flatness of it by taking readings at various areas. i use to program the old machine they had but that was over 10 years ago, so am way out of my depth now on that side.
> a full print out of the flatness will be printed out and i shall post a picture of those findings to show what was found.
> so my terminology was incorrect in saying scanned instead of probed.


The Renishaw mention peaked my interest as I worked there back in my youth as a designer and we were achieving 0.5um back then. Worked extensively on CMM's and machining centres equipped with Renishaw probes but got a more exciting offer at Cosworth.
Anyway back on subject, I'm not sure why this thread went for warped discs as they are very very rare and highly unlikely to cause juddering although 0.07mm out is more than we used to tolerate (0.04mm). Whats more likely to be the case are issues with varying disc width. Not sure if anyone has mic'd them up from outside to inside and at different places around the disc to see if there are any high points, that's where I'd start. If there are differences someones been a naughty boy, I'll explain why for those interested if there are any differences.


----------



## tom2018 (Mar 26, 2011)

Hi guys, this issue is now resolved between me and craig, i dont no if gazza is still getting the disks scanned or probed or whatever happens. If he is im sure he will post his findings.

But can we please not have a bitching match its just pointless

Also the ammount of terminolagy being used in here does show how much equipment etc and know how is needed to show if brake disks are indeed staright or warped or uneven etc

so i think next time i sell brakes i shall be putting a big disclaimer that the buyer buys at there own risk unless they want to pay to have them scanned etc.

While i still maintain the disks were fine, craig was obviously unhappy with them so we came to an agreement as i offered a good will gesture to put all this behind us as i was just fed up off having all this on here.

Anyway its now sorted as far as me and craig are concerned but please feel free to continue to talk about microns or um's or whatever the measurement is lol

Cheers all
Tom


----------



## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

keithtd said:


> Gazzer said:
> 
> 
> > Keith, the CMM machines at Moog are fully equiped with renishaw probes that can determin tolerances of +- 1um. how it will be determined the disk is flat or warped is basically by firstly determining if the mating face is free of debris and then using calibrated blocks on a calibrated bed of granite the face is probed to determine the flatness of it by taking readings at various areas. i use to program the old machine they had but that was over 10 years ago, so am way out of my depth now on that side.
> ...


hi Keith, i love renishaw's place with all of the wild birds around the place.........more like a wildlife sanctuary :lol: 
think you missed a 0 out on your stated measurments m8ee .07 not .7 as that would be seriously noticeable on any breaks indeed. back to renishaw, one of my mates from moog went there as a production engineer and i was selling cutting tools then for Fraisa and had some eye opening walks around the place. (have also crunched some probes up on the fadals by his incorrect programming lol)............yes just push start the program is fine............BANG ooops curly that's another £300 m8 lol.
ok back to disks......i was off on a vietnam trip then lol :roll: i would very much doubt there would be any real difference in disk thickness if the pads are running flat on the disk, if there was that would tell me that the disk material itself had varying hardnesses within the metal and would physically show on the pads having been somewhat dished out by the harder area. hmmmm now that is also a pissibolity and i will get that checked also for hardness of the material.


----------



## keithtd (Aug 22, 2007)

lol '0' now inserted.
Just mic the discs up when you get them Gazzer that should tell you if there's an issue. As you say hardness check will confirm cementite.
Done few ruby probes in my time. :lol:


----------



## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

keithtd said:


> lol '0' now inserted.
> Just mic the discs up when you get them Gazzer that should tell you if there's an issue. As you say hardness check will confirm cementite.
> Done few ruby probes in my time. :lol:


Okie doke will do...........when they arrive :roll: (Craig)?


----------



## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

keithtd said:


> lol '0' now inserted.
> Just mic the discs up when you get them Gazzer that should tell you if there's an issue. As you say hardness check will confirm cementite.
> Done few ruby probes in my time. :lol:


having been heated up and down so often, what about the martenzite  ( dont want them cracking !! )


----------



## keithtd (Aug 22, 2007)

roddy said:


> keithtd said:
> 
> 
> > lol '0' now inserted.
> ...


Is that like martensite? :lol: Unlikely not rapid enough cooling. :wink:


----------



## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

roddy said:


> keithtd said:
> 
> 
> > lol '0' now inserted.
> ...


Learn to spell ya dopey git :lol: English dear boy English....


----------



## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

oo   oops,,, will have to have a word with my secretary, her spelling is dreadful :roll:


----------



## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

Gazzer said:


> roddy said:
> 
> 
> > keithtd said:
> ...


errr,,, sorry dear english boy,, but it is actually a german discovery !! :lol: :lol:


----------



## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

ha ha,, [smiley=cheers.gif] [smiley=cheers.gif]


----------



## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

the disks have arrived (unsigned not as agreed) i have taken pics of them but don't have my lead for the iphone to connect up at work so will do it tonight.

first impressions are that they are bloody filthy and i will have to degrease them before i can book them in to get scanned. mating faces were plastered in copper slip and that suprised me somewhat owing to how caked in brake deposits they are. i would expect both faces to be similar in appearance, however the inner face on both have massive ridges running around the entire faces of both disks that can only be likened to zooming into an old vinyl record. the outer face also has some but more like what i would expect to see on a disk in smoothness.

pics up later also after i have cleaned them!!! ya mucky git craig lol.


----------



## keithtd (Aug 22, 2007)

After you've cleaned them Gazzer I'd be interested to know if there is any discolouration at any point/s around the disc. :wink:


----------



## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

Gazzer said:


> mating faces were plastered in copper slip and that suprised me somewhat owing to how caked in brake deposits they are.


Didn't the OP say (at the top of pg2) they'd been fitted without the use of any grease?

My money is on grubby mating surfaces, skimmed over with a load of grease to save cleaning them, then bolted on the car, causing a slight off-axis wobble. Depending on how much use they got after that, they may have worn unevenly now too.


----------



## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

keithtd said:


> After you've cleaned them Gazzer I'd be interested to know if there is any discolouration at any point/s around the disc. :wink:


Hi keith, on the one disk their is and that can clearly be seen in the picture, the mating face of this one still has slight deposits on from previous owner i guess and not sure how much was on their as i had to give them a fairly good going over with degreaser and a paint brush. the other disk mating face was deffo clean and no discolouration on that disk.



> Didn't the OP say (at the top of pg2) they'd been fitted without the use of any grease?
> 
> My money is on grubby mating surfaces, skimmed over with a load of grease to save cleaning them, then bolted on the car, causing a slight off-axis wobble. Depending on how much use they got after that, they may have worn unevenly now too.


it was deffinately copper grease on them both spandy.


----------



## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

ok how they arrived and from where.









for sake of any confusion i have called them disk 1 & 2 (disk 2 looking less discoloured to me and had the clean mating face)

disk 1
































both disks have these ridges on one face only :?

disk 2

















both faces were identical one side to the other in view obviously not measured yet.

















so that is it for now, until i can get them booked in for a full inspection.


----------



## keithtd (Aug 22, 2007)

Well those have certainly had a hard life I'm surprised if they were bought in that state anyone would put them on a car never mind have the cheek to sell them. If those ridges are anywhere approaching 0.5mm they shouldn't have but I believe they were put on by a 'master' mechanic so he was either blind as a bat or they didn't arrive like that. Having said that I can't believe that was done in 10000 miles never mind a 100 unless they've been raced - the discoloration would suggest they've seen some very heavy braking by someone who doesn't know how to drive, or more accurately they don't know how to stop!
I'll bet there are variations in hardness Gazzer, if you can test the dark spots as thats where the heat has been. If there are differences thats whats caused the juder imo.


----------



## nott (Apr 6, 2013)

After looking at the pictures I would never have put them on my car

I would have returned them right away


----------



## Garth (Feb 7, 2012)

I would expect to see heavier wear on the inside face as on brembos, those pistons are 'pushed first' as it were (not an accurate description I know). This is very common on Porsches. The ridges are fairly typical of heavy wear on drilled discs, but I would never put them in my car like that. If a 'master tech' received them in this condition and fitted them without highlighting it as a problem, he should be sacked without question.


----------



## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

I have never seen anything like it tbh guys and Keith those ridges feel bigger than .5 bud. So what causes the ridges? As only being on one side of each disk it seemed odd to me.


----------



## A8VCG (May 9, 2011)

Gazzer said:


> the disks have arrived (unsigned not as agreed) i have taken pics of them but don't have my lead for the iphone to connect up at work so will do it tonight.
> 
> first impressions are that they are bloody filthy and i will have to degrease them before i can book them in to get scanned. mating faces were plastered in copper slip and that suprised me somewhat owing to how caked in brake deposits they are. i would expect both faces to be similar in appearance, however the inner face on both have massive ridges running around the entire faces of both disks that can only be likened to zooming into an old vinyl record. the outer face also has some but more like what i would expect to see on a disk in smoothness.
> 
> pics up later also after i have cleaned them!!! ya mucky git craig lol.


Can I get away with saying that I wanted them delivered in the same condition as when they were removed? Sorry pal I live in a flat so I generally don't have the space or facilities to really clean them up before sending down. The discs were not fitted with copper grease however it's normal practice to put grease on the shims/pads and wheel studs so that and some greasy fingers is where the grub is from - you can see this on the mating surface being dry from products.

I think the majority of people probably would have fitted them based on the testimony from the seller. With this in mind there was no reason for me to open the package (lesson learned). TBH had I seen these discs I would have questioned the rate of wear but still would have fitted them based on them being "100% true". The issue is they needed replaced immediately after fitting so judge for yourselves here - No 2 opinions are the same and i'm sure a lot of forum members would have taken this much further.

Keen to get the results Gaz


----------



## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

Cuprabhoy said:


> Gazzer said:
> 
> 
> > the disks have arrived (unsigned not as agreed) i have taken pics of them but don't have my lead for the iphone to connect up at work so will do it tonight.
> ...


Have to ask Craig, where those ridges on both disks there when supplied to you? I am hoping to get them in this week for testing for warping and now a hardness check on the blackened areas. Did your guy inspect them and offer any advice prior to fitting them m8ee?


----------



## A8VCG (May 9, 2011)

Gazzer said:


> Cuprabhoy said:
> 
> 
> > Gazzer said:
> ...


I didn't open the package so I can neither confirm or deny if they were there. However based on the facts being:

I reported the judder within the first 60 miles of driving the car on the motorway at normal speed

Also it's unlikely the ridges were caused by myself given I only covered approximaely 500 miles in the 2 month period and didn't thrash the car based on not knowing what the problem was and the brakes not feeling safe.

Lastly - the wear to me looks like they have been driven so hard and not consistent with 500 miles of motorway miles and a couple of spirited 8 mile runs. (& We're not talking track day driving here) My dad recently commented on his new Mercedes AMG SLK with x-drilled discs which has now done 8,000 miles - BTW, the discs still look almost new and i've had the pleasure of driving about 200 miles in the car "spirited" driving and had no issues ;-)

Now that they're in your possession - what's your opinion for everyone to see on here?


----------



## keithtd (Aug 22, 2007)

Gazzer said:


> I have never seen anything like it tbh guys and Keith those ridges feel bigger than .5 bud. So what causes the ridges? As only being on one side of each disk it seemed odd to me.


You often get this when the wrong pads have been used for the driving style. If you're a mad arse the discs will heat up beyond the operating temperature of the pads and the even transfer of pad material to disc breaks down into patterns. These patterned areas become even hotter causing the disc material at those points to change in structure and become very hard, whence you get even more overheating and finally judder due to uneven disc wear i.e you get variations in disc thickness.
If this is the case the driver is also unlikely to know that stopping the car hard to standstill is not the brightest thing to do, even worse is to leave your foot on the brake, and would lead quite quickly to the above issues.
The answer to all this will lie in the hardness tests and any disc thickness variations. If there are variations that would explain the juddering.
Pads should be worn in so not sure what a 'spirited drive' means and after what period this was done i.e. how far through the 500 miles, but if braking very hard and often and leaving your foot on the brake when stopped is a disc killer! However you'd be hard put to put those grooves in in 500 miles.
I haven't read the thread back but I'm assuming the solution was to change the discs but the calipers were kept.  
This 'master' technician needs his arse kicking by the sounds of it as he should of informed you BEFORE putting them on the car.
Just had a thought are there any pics of the discs when they were advertised?


----------



## tom2018 (Mar 26, 2011)

I belive i emailed craig pictures of the brakes before he brought them, it was 6months ago so dont really remember? Craig did i email you pictures?

Tom


----------



## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

one lesson to be learned here is to take your car to a proper mechanic and not some master technician !!!  :? 
those discs should never have been fitted,, they look like mine are after 10k of , well not quite  , normal driving and i am about to replace mine !! TBH ithink i fkd mine on a drive down throo spain where there was plenty of very hard braking,, but not quite " track day " stuff over some maybe 800 miles , they were new then but never felt the same after that,,,


----------



## A8VCG (May 9, 2011)

tom2018 said:


> I belive i emailed craig pictures of the brakes before he brought them, it was 6months ago so dont really remember? Craig did i email you pictures?
> 
> Tom


Hi Tom - can't really remember but they were on your car and then posted soon after they were removed. You could be right but it was probably the outers - the inners look in a terrible state


----------



## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

Craig i am no brake expert tbh, but in life if it looks wrong normally it is. i personally have never seen any disks like that on any of my cars and have at times been a tad heavy on brakes due to company cars and not giving a 5hit tbh lol.
the pictures certainly don't lie and those grooves/ridges are bad to my untrained eye ok, however my immediate thought is that the master techy should have used his experience and judgment to inform you of a possible problem? so i ask did he go to any lengths to make you aware of a possible problem. (a legal requirement i believe) the edge wear lip isn't that bad considering what i had read within this thread so i am not sure they have done millions of miles tbh.

next thought regarding the disk with the darkened areas, if they were imho already there when at fitting stage then the fitter again is at fault legally. if however they were not there and lets say judging by the mating face on that disk still has deposits then that would mean possibly they could have been fitted incorrectly. also considering only having done 500 miles on your car and the amount of debris falling off them it is possible....very possible that crap got stuck between the mating faces on install.

so in my unprofessional opinion here, if they arrived like that they should have never been installed and if with how caked in brake debris they were they should never have been installed without a full clean up first.
i can't say any fairer than this tbh as i have said i only wanted the disks for my own curiosity on the problem and get them inspected.


----------



## jamman (May 6, 2002)

I'm slightly lost why this is going round in circles it's all down to the mechanic that fitted them he knows his stuff should have spotted potential problems straight away and flagged them then you could have gone back to Tom with your concerns.

Edit Gaz beats me to it

On a side when I bought my "big red" 993TT brake kit off forum member Was the first thing I did was throw the discs and pads away and renew.

Glad it's all sorted now anyway the Brembo setup has good bite and pedal feel, top product


----------



## keithtd (Aug 22, 2007)

If it was crap that had fallen in Gazzer then you'd get one or two grooves not several on both discs and on the same side! As for fitting issues same applies, guy is unlikely to have fitted both incorrectly unless he was a real prat.
Still not had an answer as to whether any photos exist prior to being sold, that would help.


----------



## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

BUT they were not fitted by a mechanic,,, they were fitted by a " master tech ",,, say no more ,,, :?


----------



## A8VCG (May 9, 2011)

roddy said:


> BUT they were not fitted by a mechanic,,, they were fitted by a " master tech ",,, say no more ,,, :?


What's your point?

Master Tech would not have necessarily known they would cause severe judder. Not all routine jobs require a test drive and not all test drives go above 40mph which is when the vibration was felt.

As stated above - we are going round in circles now

Currently the brakes are fine with the new discs: Same fitter / new rotors / no issues !


----------



## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

keithtd said:


> If it was crap that had fallen in Gazzer then you'd get one or two grooves not several on both discs and on the same side! As for fitting issues same applies, guy is unlikely to have fitted both incorrectly unless he was a real prat.
> Still not had an answer as to whether any photos exist prior to being sold, that would help.


sorry guys am trying to organise a funeral at same time here lol.........

ok keith Garth said in an earlier post that this is common wih these disks on the grooving, god knows as i surely dont. proof is in the pudding on hardness checks per side of disk i am hoping.


----------



## keithtd (Aug 22, 2007)

Looks like no pics so no help there.
Guess the morals are: check what you get, pay a good mechanic if you can't do it yourself, and once a settlement has been agreed move on. 
Gazzer all you need to do is mic up the disc thickness at the same circumference at different points around the disc - you don't really need to check hardness at this point.


----------



## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

keithtd said:


> Looks like no pics so no help there.
> Guess the morals are: check what you get, pay a good mechanic if you can't do it yourself, and once a settlement has been agreed move on.
> Gazzer all you need to do is mic up the disc thickness at the same circumference at different points around the disc - you don't really need to check hardness at this point.


Keith the grooves are that bad that you couldn't get a proper reading bud.


----------



## tom2018 (Mar 26, 2011)

Guys i no that everyone wants to see for there own reasons about the disks, but me and craig have sorted our diffrences out and have put this behind us, so can we please stop blaming his mechanic or him not checking them etc,

we are both sorted now so lets just wait for the results so people can see the brake hardness or variences etc for there own reasons rather than contnuing this into a further slagging match, im sure me and craig are both gratefull to people who have givin opnions etc on this on both sides

Thanks
Tom


----------



## keithtd (Aug 22, 2007)

tom2018 said:


> Guys i no that everyone wants to see for there own reasons about the disks, but me and craig have sorted our diffrences out and have put this behind us, so can we please stop blaming his mechanic or him not checking them etc,
> 
> we are both sorted now so lets just wait for the results so people can see the brake hardness or variences etc for there own reasons rather than contnuing this into a further slagging match, im sure me and craig are both gratefull to people who have givin opnions etc on this on both sides
> 
> ...


Slagging match, all we've suggested is that a half decent mechanic should have consulted you if he found an issue, it appeared he didn't - lesson for us all but if you wanted this finished why send the discs to Gazzer, I'm sure he's got other things on his mind at the moment. What were you hoping to find out as I can say with some degree of certainty that all you'll find is a list of possible causes with differing degrees of probability. As I said earlier best let it lie and throw the discs away. 

Ending on a lighter note, my screw jacks finally arrived from the US and my adjustable tie bars are now ready to be fitted. They are super strong without the firmness of poly bushes which most aftermarket tie bars seem to have. I'll put some pics up soon on my thread on the subject.


----------



## mullum (Sep 16, 2011)

Post moved to Keith thread


----------



## tom2018 (Mar 26, 2011)

I didnt send them

Tom


----------



## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

dropping disks of lunchtime today and should hopefully get results on friday


----------



## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

Results are in and if you see by the pictures everything has been done from the datum face (mating face) as it should.
Face one (mating face side)
results are on the worse disk i called (disk 1) across a 300mm span was .142 mm out of parallel to the datum.
flatness once the datum plane had been established was .059 mm so no warping detected on this face.
hardness check done on non discoloured area and discoloured area 207 & 209 vickers (basically fairly soft material)

Face 2 (outer face)
again all from the datum..
flatness .030 mm
parallel .080 mm
















this one suprised me as it felt far worse to me, but basically the bad disk is NOT warped and then lends itself to either defective pads or fitting of this disk 1.
disk 2 was below all of these figures slightly so couldn't be arsed to take pictures of that set of scans.


----------



## A8VCG (May 9, 2011)

Very good of you to do this Gazzer - i'll take you for a pint sometime


----------



## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

Cuprabhoy said:


> Very good of you to do this Gazzer - i'll take you for a pint sometime


is ok bud, i got to meet old work mates after nearly 10 years and as of old had the pi55 ripped out of me lol. it does however lean in Toms favour of non warped disks bud am afraid.


----------



## A8VCG (May 9, 2011)

Gazzer said:


> Cuprabhoy said:
> 
> 
> > Very good of you to do this Gazzer - i'll take you for a pint sometime
> ...


Glad you had a good day- i heard you were having tough time so appreciate your time pal . It doesn't matter now, whether they were warped / cracked / grooved like a record or melted with hard spots beyond being usable - they were knackered / are knackered!

Hey, some things are more important though which you know - Tom and I have sorted our conflict in a pretty decent manner and are still talking so fair play to him for that.

Case closed.


----------

