# Oil level warning - but oil topped up



## jalms (May 24, 2009)

Lads, first things first: although I've been searching through iPhone, I don't have a computer with me right now, so my quest for answers could have missed something. My apologies I that's the case.
However, it seems as all the oil-related posts are due to excessive consumption, which is not the case.

I serviced my 2.0 TFSI last August 10th, with proper oil filter replacement and oil change, using Mobil 1 with the right specs.
Now the problem: this August 19th, just few hundreds of miles ran, I had "low oil level" warning on the dash info. I've put half litre without checking the level at the dipstick, started the engine and after half-mile came the warning again. Finally checked the dipstick and oil was top filled (perhaps a little above max... So dumb I am). Today I visited my mechanic and we're both trying to figure what's wrong, but no clue...
Just to mention that, prior to the first warning, I drove tough, very fast and extreme, but nothing I hadn't done before.
I believe (I'm not certain) I heard valves hammering at some point, but not anymore.
One more info: once I start the engine, no warning comes up, but a few steps on gas are enough to prompt the warning.

A friend told me that some Audi TDI need to replace an axis inside oil pump when this happens.

We're now going to insert original Audi oil filter and check oil pressure.

In the meanwhile, can somebody give me a precious help, or even if have had same problem?

Thank you all!


----------



## Hoggy (May 8, 2002)

Hi, Assuming you checked level 5 minutes after engine off & level is still correct on dipstick & It was oil level low & not oil pressure low. If oil level is correct, then I would think level sensor is playing up. 
Oil pump prob would not be related to oil level, but it would be to oil pressure.
Hoggy.


----------



## jalms (May 24, 2009)

Thank you, Hoggy, always so helpful!

Your thinking is logic and correct; however, it seems as this fault is being all but logic.

After testing and measuring oil pressure, the results were within normal parameters. Changed oil, oil filter (Audi original) and pressure sensor and still the same problem.

As I told you before that I had the slight impression that the valves were "hammering" at certain time, I decided to be a little harder while testing and so they came to hammer again. It's a heartbreaking sound, it really looks like there's a mechanical slaughter inside the engine.

So I've heard that some Audi's (TDI or petrol) have a common problem with oil pump's axis or valve. Is it possible that mine can't handle the heat? Or could it be a faulty whole oil pump?

Right now I'm at the mechanic we're trying to solve... please help


----------



## TT-driver (Sep 14, 2010)

Are we talking low oil level warning or low oil pressure warning?

The low level signal is a false warning, given the level is actually correct. But if you're hearing strange noises too (and these aren't the injectors) then there might be a real oil pressure problem.


----------



## jalms (May 24, 2009)

After I've done a rough test-run and heard valves hammering, we measured oil pressure again (at intensive engine heat). Very low pressure at first test, no pressure at all in two following tests. Now I know the level warning was indeed false.

Now what: new oil pump? Or could it be that this pump has a problematic axle as reported in the TDI's?

And just in case.... how much does the oil pump cost?

Thank you all, again


----------



## TT-driver (Sep 14, 2010)

OK, I see. A German owner experienced the same problem: issues after driving fast. He actually ruined his engine completely. After taking it apart, he discovered that the oil filter (not the one that you've replaced, but the one in the sump that is the entrance of the oil pump) was completely blocked with black sludge.

So: time to let the oil out and either check with an endoscope that filter, or screw off the sump and check it.

Having dinner first now. I'll be back soon!


----------



## jalms (May 24, 2009)

Indeed, I'm affraid my engine is being ruined since the issue showed up and following testing...
I'm removing the sump/pan right now and I'll look for that filter and be right back with results.
We already used the endoscope and found nothing worth worry - at least, said the mechanic.

Thank you again


----------



## TT-driver (Sep 14, 2010)

I'm back, watching this space.


----------



## jalms (May 24, 2009)

Thank you for your prompt attention...

Oil pan/sump removed and really there was a huge amount of black sludge in that inside filter, added to metal debris.
We're suspecting it's source (can't really tell you right now because I'm unable to translate the parts name), but we're disassembling a little more to be certain.

At least we (most probably) found the cause, thanks to your help.

I'll keep you posted with news as soon as I get them, I promise.

Words can't describe my appreciation towards your concern, care and help.


----------



## TT-driver (Sep 14, 2010)

You're welcome and I'm glad I could help. I sincerely hope that the amount of damage in the engine isn't too bad.

The fresh oil (with fresh cleaning additives) and high temperatures will have loosened up black sludge, which then was sucked up into that filter.

I'm curious as to what the history of the car is. How many miles/kilometres has it done? What oil was used? When did it have it's services? Many short trips, mixed of mostly long trips?

Some pictures would be great too.


----------



## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

I presume the "valve hammering" is a collapse of your cam followers due to low head oil pressure - possibly due to a clearance opening up when hot - possibly due to a blockage.

A common one on the Mk1 engine is the hydraulic cam chain tensioner which trends to play up at idle when the oil is hot. Oil pressure measured at the pump may seem OK. At higher revs the noise goes away as the leak is only significant at low volume oil flow. I'm not familiar with your engine but it may be similar.

Other possibilities could include a large piece of debris blocking the oil strainer at high flow - possibly sludge. The oil pump leaking when hot (I once had a Vauxhall with a loose oil pump backing plate) - could be loose mounting or leaking seal when hot.

Does the cam follower noise happen at idle or at high revs when hot? This is key.

Another useful diagnostic is to measure both the oil pressure at the pump and also at the head (if you can find a blanking plug - or possibly at turbo union), as you'll be able to see if it's just the head pressure dropping or the whole engine.


----------



## TT-driver (Sep 14, 2010)

Having so much black sludge in the sump means you'll have to take the valve cover off too. Gives an opportunity to see what state the camshafts are in as well as cleaning all junk out.

I'm not entirely sure how to take it from there. Cleaning and flushing is one thing, but what's all to check before actually starting up the engine again...?

If there is no wear and tear on the camshafts and no obvious resistance when turning around the engine by hand and no visible damage to the oil pump, would it be OK to start it up again once all is put back onto the engine?


----------



## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

Didn't see the results of your investigation when I posted. It may be worth taking off some main and big end caps to see if there's any damage. Use new bolts on reassembly. I hope it's not too extensive and the crank is Ok.


----------



## jalms (May 24, 2009)

Again, I'm very thankful for your attention, you all.
I'll check on the valves for sludge soon...
Meanwhile, our biggest suspicion on the splinters/debris found in the oil pan is on the rod bearings, due to its colour. However, my mechanic called a guy who's supposed to be a specialist in VAG engines to say what's the next step, let's see and I'll keep you reported with news.

One more fear I have: could it be something wrong with the chain that commands the oil pump? I say this because the worst symptoms are shown with extreme driving and greatest engine heat, when the oil is supposed to be thinner but it's when doesn't reach the valves' head, thus its hammering sound... The chain seems properly tense, but is it possible that, in extreme driving & heat, somehow it looses?


----------



## TT-driver (Sep 14, 2010)

Thinner oil gets pushed out easier, especially when supply is low. Plus when supply is low, due to that blocked filter, the oil pump can build up less pressure. On top of that, 5W30 combined with 40 degrees C outside and driving hard perhaps leads to oil that is actually too thin to maintain oil pressure. This is why some track day cars are filled with 10w60 'racing oil', just to maintain oil pressure under high load/high temperature situations.

Before getting anywhere near starting up the engine again, do check that the turbo still receives enough oil. The pipe should be free of contamination.


----------



## jalms (May 24, 2009)

You refer to the pipe that leads from oil pump to turbo? I've been using 5w30 Mobil 1, VW504/507 specs, at a range of 20 to 35 Celsius outside...


----------



## brittan (May 18, 2007)

As per John-H's post I'd also guess that the 'valve hammering' noise is from the cam followers and I'd suggest that it was due to low oil flow to them caused by partial blockage of the oil pick-up strainer in the sump.

If the oil pump drive chain is correctly tensioned when cold then I doubt that expansion due to heat will change that by an amount significant enough to affect drive to the pump.

If you have clear evidence of bearing material or bearing backing material in the sump then again as per John-H's post you need to check all the big end and main bearings for damage along with the crankshaft journals.


----------



## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

I'm just wondering now if the noise you heard was actually big end noise? If the bearings are damaged you need to check for ovality of the crank - clearances are critical. You can tell a lot from the condition of the bearing shells too.

http://www.nb-cofrisa.com/docs/web_fallos_ing.PDF

http://darkside.ca/tech/CL77-3-402.pdf


----------



## jalms (May 24, 2009)

Well, we're not sure yet the debris/splinters come from the bearings, we'll find out as soon as we sort out the best way to open it (once the car is on an elevator and the engine is opened from the bottom, we're not sure to continue disassembling from bottom or top to check bearing rods.
John, the damned noise came from the top of the engine (looks as coming from valves) and raised with rotation, actually sounding like hammers. I'm most thankful for those brochures on bearing shells, I will check if the shells match any of those conditions - in case (says the mechanic) we find them loosen or damaged. In such case, I'll remove everything and check the crankshaft and the rods, pursuing any visible or suspect damage.


----------



## TT-driver (Sep 14, 2010)

jalms said:


> You refer to the pipe that leads from oil pump to turbo? I've been using 5w30 Mobil 1, VW504/507 specs, at a range of 20 to 35 Celsius outside...


Yes that's the pipe I'm referring to. It would be a shame if by ignoring that pipe the turbo would die due to lack of oil once all the rest is OK again.

You've used the correct oil and 20 to 35 degrees should IMHO fall under normal operating temperatures.


----------



## jalms (May 24, 2009)

The car has been lowered to remove valve head, where everything is ok, regular wear and no splinters. Next step indicated by specialist is to lift cams to check if loosen on debris under, once he says there can be pressure loss there.
Once the elevator is raised again, first thing to do will be to check that pipe that leads to turbo; so, the only thing I should expect there is clean oil, right? And just a thin coating of oil or massive amounts?

My deepest thanks!


----------



## TT-driver (Sep 14, 2010)

Turbo's spin at around 100.000 (yes 5 zero's) rpm. They need clean oil. I'd take the oil feed and return off and clean them. It's a pressurised feed but the oil may have leaked out by now. As long it isn't blocked up by sludge the turbo may have survived.


----------



## TT-driver (Sep 14, 2010)

Oh and before you start up the engine (once we're that far) you could start the engine, no spark plugs, no valve cover, but with sump and oil and check if oil arrives at all cam followers. Just to ensure no internal feed lines are blocked.

Glad all looks OK at the top.


----------



## moro anis (May 27, 2010)

Re oil temperatures, I'm not trying to counter any words of wisdom on this thread but we have conducted trials for one of the Formula 1 teams that use bog standard - as bought from Halfords, 5w30 Mobil 1 and it's track operating temperature is 160C. It will happily run above 130C which is where the additives start to boil off to maintain protection.


----------



## jalms (May 24, 2009)

TT-driver said:


> Turbo's spin at around 100.000 (yes 5 zero's) rpm. They need clean oil. I'd take the oil feed and return off and clean them. It's a pressurised feed but the oil may have leaked out by now. As long it isn't blocked up by sludge the turbo may have survived.


First thing in the morning, to clear one on the checklist!



TT-driver said:


> Oh and before you start up the engine (once we're that far) you could start the engine, no spark plugs, no valve cover, but with sump and oil and check if oil arrives at all cam followers. Just to ensure no internal feed lines are blocked.
> Glad all looks OK at the top.


Sorry if I sound like a noob, but won't it spill oil all over as if it was an hardcore scene in the movie Saw? Or should I start the engine just for miliseconds?



moro anis said:


> Re oil temperatures, I'm not trying to counter any words of wisdom on this thread but we have conducted trials for one of the Formula 1 teams that use bog standard - as bought from Halfords, 5w30 Mobil 1 and it's track operating temperature is 160C. It will happily run above 130C which is where the additives start to boil off to maintain protection.


So you're saying 5w30 Mobil 1 is proper for exhaustive driving (which is rarely the case, but when I do, I'm extreme, so I like to feel safe about engine's health) under my usual temp range?

As soon as I get results or news, I'll keep you posted! Thank you for your care and help, guys!


----------



## TT-driver (Sep 14, 2010)

jalms said:


> Sorry if I sound like a noob, but won't it spill oil all over as if it was an hardcore scene in the movie Saw? Or should I start the engine just for miliseconds?


The engine won't behave as if you've just hit an oil well. The lubrication of the various moving parts is very precise and local. That's why it's sensitive to blockages too. Engines can even run without a cover, lots of examples on youtube. In case of such a modern engine as the TT, that would raise all kinds of errors in the engine management. Therefore I thought of just starting it for a few seconds, with spark plugs and coils removed.

Anyhow, I'd still like to see some pictures of this operation.


----------



## jalms (May 24, 2009)

I confess I'm starting to get curious to try that... Doing it, I'll try to both record a video and shoot high speed sequential photos focused on the cam followers, so I can record the whole procedure and study it carefully later and I will share it with you


----------



## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

Some sort of windscreen wiper sure the camera might be needed :lol:


----------



## jalms (May 24, 2009)

John-H said:


> Some sort of windscreen wiper sure the camera might be needed :lol:


And a 3rd camera guy filming me being sprayed  Seriously, I trust TT-Driver and his thinking is logical...

I'm rushing now to the mechanic, once he called me saying that he spent yesterday's night and a bit of today disassembling oil pump (took to two pump specialists, who approved it), 1 crank bearing and 1 rod bearing. All perfect, no signs of splintering.
Also, removed 1 cam journal and no signs of splintering as well. Before removing the head to check for a debris' cause inside the combustion chamber, we'll try to check that now removing a spark plug and insert the endoscope.

News soon


----------



## Ridgmont61 (Dec 6, 2011)

Keep on posting - I have been following this saga for a couple of days - fascinating!


----------



## TT-driver (Sep 14, 2010)

Hope more good news is on its way!

Thought of one other thing, but your mechanic may have thought of it too: check and clean the crankcase ventilation pipes. Now the engine is mostly clean, you want to keep it that way 

By the time you really start up the engine again, take it easy for a while. Some bits and pieces may have very minor damage and need time to bed in again.

Still wondering how the sludge build up got to the stage where it nearly killed the engine. Wrong oil? Lack of maintenance?

Good luck!


----------



## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

You need to find out where the metal fragments came from. I'd check all your big ends and mains bearings if nothing else is obvious. You could have one fail and lose you pressure.


----------



## jalms (May 24, 2009)

TT-driver said:


> Thought of one other thing, but your mechanic may have thought of it too: check and clean the crankcase ventilation pipes. Now the engine is mostly clean, you want to keep it that way


Well, as soon as we sort everything out and get all the parts and decide to start assembling, those will be priorities 



TT-driver said:


> Still wondering how the sludge build up got to the stage where it nearly killed the engine. Wrong oil? Lack of maintenance?


Dunno too... Everyone is hinting to that too, but I've always respected oil change intervals, religiously. However, "my" oil always has been 5w30 Mobil 1 (with proper VW specs), which I always carried to official service, until the day the dealer said Portuguese Audi stipulated it should be used the oil they've chosen, otherwise Audi would never be responsible for any engine damage. Well, I respected that and that "commercial" choice was 10w40 Galp Longlife... For me, that oil should have never been chosen for that engine. Could be from that... but, still, so much sludge after 82.000 miles?

And all this problem shown up about 300/500 miles after last service (not at Audi, at my mechanic, with proper oil). It's still a mistery.



John-H said:


> You need to find out where the metal fragments came from. I'd check all your big ends and mains bearings if nothing else is obvious. You could have one fail and lose you pressure.


We're at a true mystery trying to find out the source of those metal fragments. The big end bearings were our first suspicion, but, 1 removed and also 1 crankshaft bearing removed, both were perfect. This Friday we'll check on ALL the bearings from below.
If nothing found, then we'll have to remove the head and look inside the combustion chamber...

One thing is certain to me: I won't assembly and run that engine until I found were the debris come from...

More news tomorrow, lads, thank you for your persistent thinking on causes and solutions and permanent worry!


----------



## TT-driver (Sep 14, 2010)

Couple of thoughts here:

I'm not really worried about parts of the cylinders or valves ending up in the sump. In order to check valves, cylinders and piston rings, a compression test should be sufficient.

Check for axial play on the crankshaft. It has a bearing at one of its ends in order to cope with the pressure from the clutch. Possibly the metal parts stem from this bearing.

Could you post a picture of these fragments with a ruler so we can all see the size of the fragments?
Are the fragments magnetic (so iron), or are they aluminium? If aluminium, can this debris be the remains of machining the engine block in the factory?

You may want to replace the timing belt, tensioners and water pump at this stage too. Not because of damage, but because the mechanic is busy anyhow.

The oil: interesting... as far as I know, VAG long life spec oil (504.00/507.00) is always 5W30. A 10W40 oil sounds like an 'old fashioned' oil that can only be used in fixed intervals, 15k km or one year maximum. I've checked the Galp website and could not find a 10w40 oil that meets long life spec. It would be an interesting court case if Audi is pouring in the wrong oil and still keeping their cars on a long life maintenance schedule...


----------



## jalms (May 24, 2009)

*TT-driver*, one of your best posts 

I'll try to take a shot of the fragments, but so far I can tell you they look aluminium.
Once the timing belt had to come out, I already told the mechanic to order new belt and tensioner (it's replacement is due at 100k miles, said my Audi dealer, but once everything's out and starting from new, I prefer right now) - it's really well pointed out 

Yeah, indeed there's no Galp 10w40 that meets 504.00/507.00 spec, I sure yelled that to my dealer, but they just lifted their shoulders and said "commercial conveniums. Nothing to do".

Interesting court case, indeed, and we could spice the matter a little: I'm a lawyer. However, I already know that Audi's Portuguese importer has so many ways of ditching their responsibility...

*Now, wake up call by the mechanic. Found the fragments source*
It seems it is a connecting rod splintering.
I still can't understand how can a rod itself splinter; first should have been the bearing to the crankshaft or the axis that plugs to the piston, but a rod itself?

I'm on my way to there to discuss it better, see it with my own eyes and post a pic for you...


----------



## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

Should be interesting.


----------



## jalms (May 24, 2009)

Well, after all is a rod bearing tearing apart (due to low lube). So this is where the fragments/debris/splinters came from...
Here's a couple of photos from the bearing, I forgot to take a picture of the rod itself, but it's scratched exactly as the bearing is ("you don't say?!" LOL). The mechanic says he'll send the rod to a forger to correct the rod.

Meanwhile, we checked the oil feed and the oil return and looked clean; however, when assembling everything, we'll clean that.

I've been recommended to swap the valves' seals, once they must be "crispy" from lack of lube and thus not sealing properly in the future. I think I'm surely do that.

Would you recommend checking also water pump? Or should I just swap it too? Would it be expensive?

Thank you guys.... will keep you posted with this "novel"...


----------



## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

I think the cost of the water pump is going to be the least of your troubles. You'll need to check the crank out carefully as it may need regrinding. Do not skimp in this. Apart from a micrometer/vernier at various position angles on the journal you can also use Plastigauge to gauge the running clearance. Too much and it will not last. In any case it will be a good idea to replace all the bottom end bearings if the pressure has been low as you may have increased clearances on all of them. Use new stretch bolts on reassembly. The trouble is it all mounts up in cost and soon gets into the replacement engine stage if the bores are scored etc.

You may not need new valve stem guides or seals as there is no appreciable bearing load on them - where damage may have occurred is the cam bearings in the head if they have run dry. This will probably be obvious and you can assess the state of these without taking the head off. It is even possible to replace stem oil seals without taking the head off.

I'm unclear on the condition and what you said about the rod though. If it's out it sounds like you may have the head off already. Why separate though? - has the bearing spun in the rod and worn it?

One way of proceeding, if the head is still on, is to replace the bottom end shells (big ends and mains, possibly with a creank regrind) and make sure this is completely sound, new oil pump, pick-up/strainer etc. and then reassemble the sump, fill with oil and check compression. If that's within specification, then run the engine and listen for rattles and check pressure etc. That may hopefully be all you need to do rather than taking the head off now.

If you find you need a rebore and new rings etc, or if the head rattles or you still have pressure problems you can take a view on cutting your losses at this point and replace the engine or carry on to fix it. Good luck.


----------



## TT-driver (Sep 14, 2010)

A new water pump isn't mandatory but we don't know if the old pump's seal can cope with the tension of a new belt. Given the amount of work involved to replace the pump if it turns out it can't..... better do it now. Just as the thermostat for that matter. A 15 euro or so part that can now be replaced in a blink of an eye. When it fails in a year's time.... a lot more work. I'd guess the water pump to be around 100 euro. 'Nothing' compared to the costs you're making now anyway.

Personally I don't expect the valve seals to have taken a hit. Is the head off already? Yeah then by all means and at the same time clean the air intakes from carbon deposits too, but otherwise... leave it. There is no pressure on them and as far as I know they aren't lubricated by oil pressure.

I noticed in your profile that you are a lawyer. Hence my remark towards that direction. Only flaw in your case would be that you didn't give Audi a chance to put things right again. Then again, if they don't even know what oil to use... you wouldn't let them anywhere near an engine ever again, I suppose.

I hope you have a good deal with your mechanic... all in all this isn't going to be cheap.


----------



## jalms (May 24, 2009)

After long analysis with the mechanic, decisions are being made.

He goes with you lads, water pump isn't mandatory but, once we'll fit a new timing belt and tensioner, water pump must go as well. I'll truly follow your advice.

Once the crankshaft and the con-rod are scratched, the crank is going to be disassembled to be taken together with the rods to a forger, in order to regrind/rebored (due to scratches), so correction con-rod bearings must follow (0.10 predicted). New bolts are also on checklist.
Once the crankshaft and the con-rods have to be removed and also regrinded, they told me I really should put new piston rings (about 240£ in parts dealer).

As for the valve seals, they have recommended its replacement once the engine got to work with no oil or almost no oil, so the rubber must have run dry and, therefore, got parch/scorch.
In this moment, the only thing that isn't off yet is the head, but it's about to come out soon.

So, as you may have noticed, our intention is for a total fix, rebuild whatever necessary. Thankfully, I'm friends with the mechanic and he's also my client, he will charge me a few pennies for labour. Otherwise, a new engine would have been the option for a long time...

Anyway, the parts checklist is already over 1300€/1000£... my hope right now is to look for the parts in Spain and in UK, where parts and VAT a significantly cheaper (for instance, I found a genuine water pump in a British website for 47£/59€, a lot cheaper than 120£/152€ here). I'm just going to take an hour translating the parts name and converting its prices to GBP so I can e-mail a few online parts' shops trying to get the best deal.

Damned, if I ever imagined this getting so bad...

Indeed, I'm a lawyer and I should be struggling with Portuguese Audi representative right now. However, there could have flaws in my case, starting from slight service intervals disrespect (we're talking only about servicing at 62.000km instead of 60.000), going to servicing the last maintenance at my mechanic, using my choice of oil (as you know, 5w30 Mobil 1 proper specs), until opening the engine at my mechanic instead of doing it at my dealer. I could try a shot on that, but they didn't even took their liability with malfunction of roof flaps' lifts #311 (which Audi corrected with #311A lifts, as its own TSB which is described in this forum), so I don't expect their assumption on this case and, in court, sadly they would use lots of things to "dodge" responsibility...


----------



## jalms (May 24, 2009)

Oh and one last shot...
I've sent e-mails with a list of parts required to The TT Shop and other couple of parts online shops.

However, could you please suggest any online shop or parts dealer who practices low prices?

Thank you very much, lads. Looks like we're getting close to an end - but through the hard€st part...


----------



## TT-driver (Sep 14, 2010)

Cheaper Audi parts... not at my dealer, not even a 10% discount. So I try to avoid them now by shopping on ebay. Other than that, I don't have any addresses. 

Anyhow I guess it's better rebuilding this engine, since the damage isn't so bad (not like pistons have hit valves and stuff like that) than replacing it all together by another engine which may have hidden fault.

When the head comes off, could you get us some pictures that show the carbon build up around the intake valves?


----------



## jalms (May 24, 2009)

Well, I'm happy you support my decision for the engine repair, makes me feel it's the right one!

So I'm going to look for that in eBay as well (I've already done it when I had to repair my old Honda, but that was so easy to work on and so easy to find parts :mrgreen: ) hoping for good bargains!

If you don't mind, I'll leave here the required parts list, so could you please tell me if there's anything from the list that's worth an aftermarket buy? I don't mean those cheaper spare parts, but that stuff that's better than OEM parts, just like Forge, Protoxide, etc which price is worth the replacement...

* 10 Crankshaft bearings STD - 65,70£
* 8 Con-rod bearings 0.10 - 52.56£
* 4 Piston rings sets - 241.58£
* 10 Head bolts - 49.87£
* Timing belt + tensioner - 197.88£
* Water Pump - 120.31£
* Head gasket - 59.37£
* Tapet cover gasket - 24.54£
* Exhaust manifold gasket - 5.22£
* Inlet manifold gasket - 18.01£
* 16 Valve seals - 87.39£
* Overheadcam seal - 20.66£
* Crankshaft seal (gearbox side) - 66.94£

Thank you, mates!


----------



## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

Just one thing that's niggling me - actually two, no three things:

(1) When the knocking noise occurred was it a single bearing knocking you heard at engine speed? A big end knocking can be mistaken for cam follower noise - it can deceptively sound higher up the engine than you think due to the transmission of sound through the engine and coupling to air at large surfaces e.g. cam cover. It usually gets worse at higher revs and goes quiet at idle, whereas collapsing cam followers are the other way round - going quiet at higher revs because of the increase in oil pressure and would normally be multiple valves knocking at half engine speed with more joining in if the low pressure continues and more collapse.

(2) Did the RED oil pressure low warning light come on or just the ORANGE low level indicator and when you measured low pressure, how long did you run the engine in that condition?

(3) What was the condition of the cam bearing caps and the other big end bearings and mains?

If the knocking was just the one failed bearing and no pressure warning came on, then perhaps the pressure was good elsewhere other than this one bearing and there is no damage elsewhere? If the testing with no pressure was only for a short period then again there may be no damage. A big clue here would be one big end bearing looking completely shot but the others having no damage - if you ran for a while with no pressure then the other bearings would be worn.

So perhaps the reconditioning need not extend to rings and cylinder head? As I mentioned, the cam bearing caps will be first to suffer if the head had no pressure, so if these look OK then I would think that the stems and seals will still be OK too due to them having residual oil and not being under direct load.

Doing the lot removes doubt of course but doing it in stages could save you money if the rings, bores and head don't need to be refurbished. You'll not have to run the rings and bores in again either as there's no run in requirement for bearing shells.


----------



## TT-driver (Sep 14, 2010)

I have no experience with after market 'we pretend to be better' stuff.

You are familiar with this website: http://www.neoriginal.ru ?

I use it, through google translator to find part numbers. Having part numbers makes looking for parts a lot easier.


----------



## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

Yes, I'd go for genuine Audi parts as they will come with warranty. I've used AE for engine parts before with other car manufacturers when rebuilding but I'd still go with Audi parts for the TT. The only non Audi parts I think you'd be able to get are things like gaskets and shells, rings, seals etc but I wouldn't use alternatives for these small items unless you can get some guarantee and experience to recommend them - it's not worth the risk otherwise given the work involved if they fail.


----------



## TT-driver (Sep 14, 2010)

John-H said:


> Yes, I'd go for genuine Audi parts as they will come with warranty.


So would I. Only deviation I'd consider is getting parts from the OEM supplier. Timing belt for instance will probably be from Contitech. In a VAG box it will be more expensive but probably not better.


----------



## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

One slightly cheaper option is to go for the Audi cam belt repair kit which includes belt, tensioning roller and idle roller- cheaper than the items individually.


----------



## newt (May 12, 2002)

John-H said:


> I think the cost of the water pump is going to be the least of your troubles. You'll need to check the crank out carefully as it may need regrinding. Do not skimp in this. Apart from a micrometer/vernier at various position angles on the journal you can also use Plastigauge to gauge the running clearance. Too much and it will not last. In any case it will be a good idea to replace all the bottom end bearings if the pressure has been low as you may have increased clearances on all of them. Use new stretch bolts on reassembly. The trouble is it all mounts up in cost and soon gets into the replacement engine stage if the bores are scored etc.
> 
> You may not need new valve stem guides or seals as there is no appreciable bearing load on them - where damage may have occurred is the cam bearings in the head if they have run dry. This will probably be obvious and you can assess the state of these without taking the head off. It is even possible to replace stem oil seals without taking the head off.
> 
> ...


To me the picture of bearing and shell indicate like you suggested the shell has rotated. This does not normally happen unless the shell anti rotation tabs failed or bearing seizure or both. I suspect crank journal will be marked.


----------



## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

Oh yes, that is possible but my question is were the other bearings worn our still unmarked? If unmarked them perhaps you only need to repair the crank.


----------



## jalms (May 24, 2009)

*EDIT:* When I asked if it was a good idea for aftermarket parts, I didn't mean other manufacturers who make cheaper (and, overall, less quality) parts. I was asking for performance parts, just like you swap original brake discs' for Brembo ones (just an example to try to be more accurate, once I'm not being able to translate my point properly).*/EDIT*



John-H said:


> One slightly cheaper option is to go for the Audi cam belt repair kit which includes belt, tensioning roller and idle roller- cheaper than the items individually.


First, I promise I will answer to you properly in those 3 questions.
For this one, indeed that's the option we followed.

Just so you know, these are the parts I'm going to need and the prices I've obtained in Portugal properly converted to GBP:
* 10 Crankshaft bearings STD - 65,70£
* 8 Con-rod bearings 0.10 - 52.56£
* 4 Piston rings sets - 241.58£
* 10 Head bolts - 49.87£
* Timing belt + tensioner - 197.88£
* Water Pump - 120.31£
* Head gasket - 59.37£
* Tapet cover gasket - 24.54£
* Exhaust manifold gasket - 5.22£
* Inlet manifold gasket - 18.01£
* 16 Valve seals - 87.39£
* Overheadcam seal - 20.66£
* Crankshaft seal (gearbox side) - 66.94£
TOTAL: 1010.93£

*TT-driver*, thank you for your help, I will check on that 



newt said:


> To me the picture of bearing and shell indicate like you suggested the shell has rotated. This does not normally happen unless the shell anti rotation tabs failed or bearing seizure or both. I suspect crank journal will be marked.





John-H said:


> Oh yes, that is possible but my question is were the other bearings worn our still unmarked? If unmarked them perhaps you only need to repair the crank.


*Newt*, could it be "only" for lack of oil? Yes, crank journal is marked and I feel like only the crank will have to be regrinded/rebored, along with new bearings, both con-rod and crankshaft.


----------



## TT-driver (Sep 14, 2010)

Usually there are no performance parts available for the internals of an engine. Only in special cases stronger and lighter parts exist. If you want to spend more on the internals, you could 'blue print' the internals of the engine. What that means is that the tolerances are made smaller. Think of the pistons for instance: they will probably all have a slightly different weight within a certain margin, suitable for mass production. When hand building the engine, the builder can fine tune the pistons, giving them an identical weight. You'd end up having an engine that is the best version of itself, typically something that is done on racing cars that must remain factory spec. Not sure if it is worth it for normal street use though.


----------



## jalms (May 24, 2009)

Lads, I've got an estimate from a Spanish parts dealer which is 2/3 cheaper than the one I got in Portugal. However, there's one thing I need your help for: I asked for the price of the whole timing kit an they provided me with one, but also provided me prices for the timing belt and tensioner, which is substantially lower than the price for the kit itself.
Does the kit include anything else more besides the belt and the tensioner?

Many thanks!!


----------



## Hoggy (May 8, 2002)

Hi, The "tensioner" in the Audi cambelt kit is not the hydraulic tensioner, the "tensioner" is just a roller & the Hyd tensioner is an extra.
Hoggy.


----------



## TT-driver (Sep 14, 2010)

I guess the kit has part number 06F198119A. Seems to contain the belt, the tensioner, two rollers and a couple of bolts.

Take the kit, I'd say. These rollers seem quite small and they'll wear as they spin fast.


----------



## avyi (Jan 9, 2012)

Boa sorte com a reparação do teu TT. Espero que depois de uma lista tão grande de peças que o teu carro não te dê mais problemas no futuro.


----------



## Hoggy (May 8, 2002)

Hi, Genuine Audi cambelt kit does not contain hyd tensioner/damper

http://www.vwspares.co.uk/product_info. ... ts_id=1240

Hoggy.


----------



## jalms (May 24, 2009)

Hoggy said:


> Hi, Genuine Audi cambelt kit does not contain hyd tensioner/damper
> 
> http://www.vwspares.co.uk/product_info. ... ts_id=1240
> 
> Hoggy.


I made a search for my model (Mk2 2.0TFSI BWA engine) and came out another part, referring to a slight different part number than that one (06F... instead of 06A...) with more parts than the other...
http://www.vwspares.co.uk/product_info. ... ts_id=1926

To you and everyone else, thank you for your help, I appreciate very much your altruism!


----------



## Hoggy (May 8, 2002)

Hi Jalms, I have given you duff gen as I was talking about Mk1 TT cambelt kit. Sorry.  
Hoggy.


----------



## jalms (May 24, 2009)

Hoggy said:


> Hi Jalms, I have given you duff gen as I was talking about Mk1 TT cambelt kit. Sorry.
> Hoggy.


No prob, that's what I was thinking.... So very soon the head will be completely off so we can check the cylinders for any damage - let's hope not!!

Will get back to you soon...


----------



## TT-driver (Sep 14, 2010)

You're really going all the way 

Please share some pictures. I'm very curious about the internals of this engine. Last time I took an engine apart and put is back together again is about 20 years ago.


----------



## jalms (May 24, 2009)

TT-driver said:


> You're really going all the way
> 
> Please share some pictures. I'm very curious about the internals of this engine. Last time I took an engine apart and put is back together again is about 20 years ago.


Indeed. If it's completely open and have to replace some parts, then it would be neglecting of me not going all the way... I just hope the engine goes also all the way for long and long years. One thing is certain: I'll be very mild and kind with it the first thousands of miles but when it's ready.... I'll unleash the power! 

Actually, I've been taking pics today, completely disassembled and I'm just reducing its size and will post soon


----------



## jalms (May 24, 2009)

Pictures as promised:

Cylinders: look perfect.









Piston and rings:









Valves' head:









Inlet valves - some f**ked-up carbon!:


----------



## TT-driver (Sep 14, 2010)

Thanks for the pictures. Is that carbon I see there between the piston rings?

One more thing to check: the so called cam follower. It's a small cup, a thimble almost, that sits between the high pressure fuel pump and a cam on the camshaft. After removing the fuel pump it can be taken out just like that.

From what I see on the internet, some are experiencing wear on it, sometimes resulting in low fuel pressure warnings. Not an expensive part to replace. Part number probably is 06D 109 309C. I guess it's relying on engine oil to be lubricated.


----------



## Mack The Knife (Jun 14, 2007)

Wow! Just read this thread. I can only wish you good luck!


----------



## Mack The Knife (Jun 14, 2007)

Given all that you are going through my comment here may well be quite insignificant, however...



jalms said:


> However, there could have flaws in my case, starting from slight service intervals disrespect (we're talking only about servicing at 62.000km instead of 60.000)


Given that your odometer could easily over-read by 5%, the displayed 62,000km may only have really been, say, 59,048km! :wink:


----------



## TT-driver (Sep 14, 2010)

Mack The Knife said:


> Given all that you are going through my comment here may well be quite insignificant, however...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In the US various makes did loose court cases exactly over that aspect. Various makes had to extend their warranty on various parts with the error margin of the odo meter.

I'm sure Audi will claim they measure in Audi-miles which are in no shape or form connected to the miles as we know them.


----------



## jalms (May 24, 2009)

TT-driver said:


> Thanks for the pictures. Is that carbon I see there between the piston rings?
> 
> One more thing to check: the so called cam follower. It's a small cup, a thimble almost, that sits between the high pressure fuel pump and a cam on the camshaft. After removing the fuel pump it can be taken out just like that.
> 
> From what I see on the internet, some are experiencing wear on it, sometimes resulting in low fuel pressure warnings. Not an expensive part to replace. Part number probably is 06D 109 309C. I guess it's relying on engine oil to be lubricated.


Not quite carbon (which is extreme at the intake valves, as you can see), looks more like sludge, which I was able to get out simply with a toothpick... obviously, the mechanic will clean ALL the engine before assembling...

I will check on that cam follower. I appreciate your description of it, I'll try to figure out what it is and I'll look for wear on it or, in last instance, try to start the engine with the valves' cover off, as you mentioned earlier.

Thank you for your concern!


----------



## jalms (May 24, 2009)

Mack The Knife said:


> Wow! Just read this thread. I can only wish you good luck!





Mack The Knife said:


> Given all that you are going through my comment here may well be quite insignificant, however...
> Given that your odometer could easily over-read by 5%, the displayed 62,000km may only have really been, say, 59,048km! :wink:





TT-driver said:


> In the US various makes did loose court cases exactly over that aspect. Various makes had to extend their warranty on various parts with the error margin of the odo meter.
> I'm sure Audi will claim they measure in Audi-miles which are in no shape or form connected to the miles as we know them.


I've been talking with "some people" and I've been assured that Audi's Portuguese importer will do its utmost to flaw any case I could have, starting from not having made the last service maintenance in an Audi dealer (I've done it at my mechanic, which I trust the most and fits the oil I and Audi AG find adequate)... It's sad (mostly being myself a lawyer) but looks like I have to support this on my own...

Anyway, thank you for your concern and sympathy, which is quite noted!


----------



## Mack The Knife (Jun 14, 2007)

jalms said:


> I've been talking with "some people" and I've been assured that Audi's Portuguese importer will do its utmost to flaw any case I could have, starting from not having made the last service maintenance in an Audi dealer (I've done it at my mechanic, which I trust the most and fits the oil I and Audi AG find adequate)... It's sad (mostly being myself a lawyer) but looks like I have to support this on my own...
> 
> Anyway, thank you for your concern and sympathy, which is quite noted!


Well OK. It's obviously your choice whether you even _start_ a claim. You may be fully aware of the fine detail of the EU directive that prevents OEM's restricting warranty remedy simply because the OEM (dealer) hasn't been the party performing the required servicing. I know nothing about Audi's Portuguese importer but I know if someone claimed against me then I'd probably do my utmost to defend myself too. However, I've never lost a case yet...

Moreover though, I hope you get your engine repaired smoothly (pun intended) and back on the road ASAP. Good luck.


----------



## jalms (May 24, 2009)

Mack The Knife said:


> Well OK. It's obviously your choice whether you even _start_ a claim. You may be fully aware of the fine detail of the EU directive that prevents OEM's restricting warranty remedy simply because the OEM (dealer) hasn't been the party performing the required servicing. I know nothing about Audi's Portuguese importer but I know if someone claimed against me then I'd probably do my utmost to defend myself too. However, I've never lost a case yet...
> 
> Moreover though, I hope you get your engine repaired smoothly (pun intended) and back on the road ASAP. Good luck.


One thing is sure: Audi Portugal will receive a letter from me, which I'll write as soon as my mind gets some peace after all this. However, what I've been told my trusted people is that in many many cases more solid than this one they managed to get out, due to a strict policy and, somehow, the courts grant them the right to have a such strict policy.

An importer worthy of that name wouldn't let this happen, for sure...


----------



## jalms (May 24, 2009)

Lads, here are the latest news from the mechanic: the turbo is cracked.... I'm really feeling all f*cked up....


----------



## Mack The Knife (Jun 14, 2007)

Wouldn't want that to happen.

Given all the time, cost and hassle you've been through already - how much of a set-back is that?


----------



## jalms (May 24, 2009)

Well, I've gathered some info and a refurbished turbo is about 700€/560£. I'm now looking for used ones, hopefully around 200€/160£.... It's already 1100€/880£ in parts so far.... :/


----------



## jalms (May 24, 2009)

Hey lads! Guess what?...


----------



## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

Yay!


----------



## Ridgmont61 (Dec 6, 2011)

Back up and running again? All OK?


----------



## TT-driver (Sep 14, 2010)

He's on the road again


----------



## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)




----------



## jalms (May 24, 2009)

Yep, up and running (as hell)!!

Well, after 2.300€ (1.865£) in parts (including turbo) and 360€ (291£) in labour, it's alive and kicking!

I'd like to thank deeply to every and single one of you for your help, assistance, care and concern. You were all far too kind and I would never forget the ones who carried me through the hard times I've been at the last 3 months.

I wish I'd single out my appreciation personally, but trust me that this thanking note has credit and gratitude for what every one of you did.

Now I just hope my case will help others, in the future, to avoid such problems and learn how to deal with it.

With my deepest regards,
João


----------

