# A technical forray into the workings of the DSG



## Mack The Knife (Jun 14, 2007)

I love the DSG box and would always choose it on the TT. So on balance, it's brilliant (and the future).

However, it does have a few, ahem, imperfections.

As a diversion from discussing leather, paint colours and cleaning etc can forum members share their technical knowledge and experience.

Please don't just post saying you prefer manual. Horses for courses...

I just want to learn more about the logic and discuss how best to get around some of the key shortfalls of the the DSG box:
GEARBOX INTERLOCK
The requirement to press the foot-brake before you can shift the gearbox from the neutral to the drive position can be annoying. I sometime find that moving out from neutral at a crawl (e.g. 1mph) to drive isn't possible without hitting the brake pedal first. Above a certain speed it doesn't apply of course. I'm not sure what the threshold is, but somewhere between 0-8mph methinks? I think it would be brilliant if the threshold was 0.1mph!
[/*]
LIMIT ON SIMULTANEOUS BRAKE + ACCELERATOR
Not sure if this is a time limit, a torque limit or a combination of both. Anyone know the DSG's criteria? It's often useful to apply a very short burst of both brake and accelerator, but too much and what happens to the drive?
[/*]
FUZZY LOGIC
The DSG seems to apply a fair amount of fuzzy logic to determine when to change gear, quickly adjusting from a cloth-cap sedate driving style in traffic to an sudden overtaking manoeuvre. Can anyone say more about how it is programmed? Also in certain conditions (when it doesn't really matter too much) the time between gears seem exceedingly sedate - what's happening there?
[/*]
INITIAL POWER DELIVERY DELAY
Ah yes, that initial (and only) delay from stationary to accelerator=go. A smooth pick-up can be guaranteed every time with a lightly feathered throttle to start with. But sometimes when you've got to go - you've got to go. And it does seem daft holding the launch control at somewhat higher than idle revs whilst sitting at every T junction![/*]


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## Guest (Feb 7, 2008)

Good post.
I wonder what the initial power delay is in real time?
I bet its not as much as you think.


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## CraigyTT (Oct 19, 2006)

The "LIMIT ON SIMULTANEOUS BRAKE + ACCELERATOR" item applies to the manual TT as well; it's not a function of DSG.

C


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## Mack The Knife (Jun 14, 2007)

DUO3 NAN said:


> Good post.
> I wonder what the initial power delay is in real time?
> I bet its not as much as you think.


Indeed, the system delay probably isn't very long maybe 200ms (0.2s) but unless the throttle is feathered that could mean 200mS then kazam! full power. Most of the total delay is probably human foot delay trying to adapt to ensure smooth power delivery?


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## Mack The Knife (Jun 14, 2007)

CraigyTT said:


> The "LIMIT ON SIMULTANEOUS BRAKE + ACCELERATOR" item applies to the manual TT as well; it's not a function of DSG.
> 
> C


Ah, Craig - I was really hoping you'd turn up!

Interesting. So for all TT models the throttle is effectively cut back - do you know the criteria?


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## Guest (Feb 7, 2008)

Mack The Knife said:


> DUO3 NAN said:
> 
> 
> > Good post.
> ...


Maybe to stop Launch starts and damaging the clutches?
Maybe its a safety factor?


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## CraigyTT (Oct 19, 2006)

Mack The Knife said:


> CraigyTT said:
> 
> 
> > The "LIMIT ON SIMULTANEOUS BRAKE + ACCELERATOR" item applies to the manual TT as well; it's not a function of DSG.
> ...


I'm not sure of the exact workings myself but I can tell you that any attempt to brake+throttle at the same time on my manual TT will result in the throttle being cut, and it only reintroduces itself gradually after something like 1 to 2 seconds from the point at which the brake pedal is released.

note to new people: if you are planning to try out leftfoot braking for the first time, please ensure you're ready for an emergency stop!

C


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## Mack The Knife (Jun 14, 2007)

CraigyTT said:


> I'm not sure of the exact workings myself but I can tell you that any attempt to brake+throttle at the same time on my manual TT will result in the throttle being cut, and it only reintroduces itself gradually after something like 1 to 2 seconds from the point at which the brake pedal is released.


I left foot brake a lot on my DSG. I'm sure when I've braked whilst still applying throttle it permits both for a (very) short time.
Are you saying it immediately cuts all throttle as soon as you brake whilst still on the gas?



CraigyTT said:


> note to new people: if you are planning to try out leftfoot braking for the first time, please ensure you're ready for an emergency stop!











[/*]


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## Guest (Feb 7, 2008)

Mack The Knife said:


> CraigyTT said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not sure of the exact workings myself but I can tell you that any attempt to brake+throttle at the same time on my manual TT will result in the throttle being cut, and it only reintroduces itself gradually after something like 1 to 2 seconds from the point at which the brake pedal is released.
> ...


Have to agree with this comment, dont like being laughed at hanging out through the front of my windscreen with my head smashed in.


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## brittan (May 18, 2007)

CraigyTT said:


> note to new people: if you are planning to try out leftfoot braking for the first time, please ensure you're ready for an emergency stop!
> 
> C


Indeed - and make sure the driver behind is too!!

Some info here and some of the links are worth a look:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct-Shift_Gearbox


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## Mack The Knife (Jun 14, 2007)

DUO3 NAN said:


> Maybe to stop Launch starts and damaging the clutches?
> Maybe its a safety factor?


Nah - I don't think so. Delaying power pick-up can only put more strain on the mechanicals (when the latent power suddenly gets delivered).
1st gear uses Clutch 1 which is the outer clutch and therefore, I believe, best able to take a bit more heat (all part of the design). Plus the clutches are wet clutches so cooled anyway.
Furthermore, why do Audi want to stop what you call (manual) 'launch starts' when it offers a complete Launch Control feature anyway (which starting at 2600-3200rpm is probably fairly gentle on the transmission).

I was thinking about when the DSG moves off when light throttle is applied from stationary on gentle inclines and the car never seems to roll back more than a mere tadge: So the Clutch 1 must be engaging fairly quickly there?

What is going on? :?


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## Guest (Feb 7, 2008)

Mack The Knife said:


> DUO3 NAN said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe to stop Launch starts and damaging the clutches?
> ...


Clarkson reckons "witchcraft".
Theres a lot of software control in there.


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## CraigyTT (Oct 19, 2006)

Mack The Knife said:


> Are you saying it immediately cuts all throttle as soon as you brake whilst still on the gas?


In fact, no, it lets you get away with a very small amount of left foot braking before it intrudes... you're right.

Maybe a quarter of a second or something?

C


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## philbur (Apr 15, 2007)

I can't offer anything in the way of understanding the DSG but I do observe many of the points raised. Is it not strange that Audi do not provide any advice in terms of the best practice techniques for operating a DSG. Or maybe they don't know how to drive it either. 

Even a description of how it works from a driverâ€™s point of view, as opposed to a purely technical point of view, would help. Itâ€™s kinda like buying a digital SLR camera and Nikon saying there you go, you work it out.

Soon or later somebodyâ€™s going to get killed pulling out across oncoming traffic and the trottle goes dead for what seems like a couple of seconds. Then the lawsuits will fly.

Phil


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## Guest (Feb 7, 2008)

philbur said:


> Itâ€™s kinda like buying a digital SLR camera and Nikon saying there you go, you work it out.
> 
> Phil


Funny you should say that. :lol:


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## Scooby-Doo (Sep 29, 2006)

Prior to MKI had an Auto Merc.The first day I had it,went to pull out on a busy roundabout and "sh*t" nothing happened for that split second.Drove the auto somewhat differently from then on.Haven't thought of getting Auto or DSG since that.

What a refreshing change this thread is.Very interesting,love cars but not very technically minded.
BTW I thought DSG was direct ie no torque convertor,why the delay on pick up?


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## cedwardphillips (Sep 6, 2005)

ALL audis kill the throttle on the application of the brake. I've tried enough left foot braking in used cars trying to clean the discs before a demo....
I think (i'm not technical) the delay is a natural consequence of having a real clutch and no torque converter to soften the impact of the drive being taken up. Multitronics have a clutch in them and over time and software updates they have varied between gentle take up but about a week's wait to go and very rapid take up but the sensation of being twatted up the backside...
It's all compromise...


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

So you cant left foot brake on a manual either now?


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## CraigyTT (Oct 19, 2006)

Toshiba said:


> So you cant left foot brake on a manual either now?


Not on the Mk.II TT - I complained/noted this last year, just after I got mine.

That thread is over here http://www.********.co.uk/ttforumbbs/viewtopic.php?t=79600&highlight=left

C


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## Arne (Dec 13, 2006)

This is another good reason for a remap.... :roll:

At least the BSR PPC-remap lets you throttle and brake at the same time. It's very noticable, because the car runs on the "original software" as long as the engine is cold. When working temperature has been reached, the remaped software (or more correct - the changes in different parameters) come into action.

Actually pretty smart..... :wink:


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## Mack The Knife (Jun 14, 2007)

CraigyTT said:


> In fact, no, it lets you get away with a very small amount of left foot braking before it intrudes... you're right.
> 
> Maybe a quarter of a second or something?


Do we think the threshold it is entirely time-based?

It certainly allows a quick jab of the brakes - which I think may be enough to tell the fuzzy logic to prepare the next gear down (as opposed to up which, with lots of acceleration, it would probably otherwise have ready).



Arne said:


> This is another good reason for a remap.... :roll:
> 
> At least the BSR PPC-remap lets you throttle and brake at the same time.


Very interesting Arne.

Can this also change
GEARBOX INTERLOCK threshold speed?[/*]
INITIAL POWER DELIVERY DELAY?[/*]


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## Arne (Dec 13, 2006)

Mack The Knife said:


> Arne said:
> 
> 
> > This is another good reason for a remap.... :roll:
> ...


Not shure - but I do know that BSRs solution to not "overtorque" the DSG, is to reduce the power slighly just before the gearchange is done.

But I do not have enough knowledge about their solution to give you any good answere to this.


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## Mack The Knife (Jun 14, 2007)

Arne said:


> Not shure - but I do know that BSRs solution to not "overtorque" the DSG, is to reduce the power slighly just before the gearchange is done.


I don't understand this.

I can see there is cause for concern with the extra BHP but...

The most strain on the transmission is when there's lots of power, no slipping anywhere and lots of resistance, e.g. 'cruise' at ,say, 5000rpm ideally in a high gear (!) and plant the throttle with no gear change, no clutch slip and no tyre slip. To the driver this can feel very smooth but the transmission has the highest strain.

In comparison I would have thought changing gear at full throttle (I believe the standard DSG set-up cuts the engine power for 8ms) with a wet clutch would be easy-peasy?


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## Guest (Feb 8, 2008)

Arne said:


> This is another good reason for a remap.... :roll:
> 
> At least the BSR PPC-remap lets you throttle and brake at the same time. It's very noticable, because the car runs on the "original software" as long as the engine is cold. When working temperature has been reached, the remaped software (or more correct - the changes in different parameters) come into action.
> 
> Actually pretty smart..... :wink:


I have to agree ive noticed similar since my remap.


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## Arne (Dec 13, 2006)

Mack The Knife said:


> Arne said:
> 
> 
> > Not shure - but I do know that BSRs solution to not "overtorque" the DSG, is to reduce the power slighly just before the gearchange is done.
> ...


I agree somewhat but not completely. The highest peak strain is most probabely at the moment the cluch is quickly engaged towards a high reving engine. I do not think the DSG has any problems of coping with a constant but not as high torque strain as it is the moment the cluch engages.

Just compare it to a manual gear shift when you quickly let go of the clutch. Thats when your neck gets the highest peak strain.... if the grip is there :wink:


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## Jimbo2 (Nov 30, 2006)

Mack The Knife said:


> GEARBOX INTERLOCK
> The requirement to press the foot-brake before you can shift the gearbox from the neutral to the drive position can be annoying. I sometime find that moving out from neutral at a crawl (e.g. 1mph) to drive isn't possible without hitting the brake pedal first. Above a certain speed it doesn't apply of course. I'm not sure what the threshold is, but somewhere between 0-8mph methinks? I think it would be brilliant if the threshold was 0.1mph![/*]


As far as I can tell, this is only from P - it's possible to move to D from N or R without application of the brake, at least at parking speeds...

Are you popping it into N at lights etc? IIRC that is not recommended and you should keep the car in D unless you are likely to be standing for a while..


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## Mack The Knife (Jun 14, 2007)

Jimbo2 said:


> As far as I can tell, this is only from P - it's possible to move to D from N or R without application of the brake, at least at parking speeds...


Nah, it can lock in N too.



Jimbo2 said:


> Are you popping it into N at lights etc? IIRC that is not recommended and you should keep the car in D unless you are likely to be standing for a while..


Yes, I occasionally do.

Why is it recommended to leave the car in D whilst stationary? :? 
I should think the poor, innocent party stuck behind you in a queue and being blinded by your super-bright brake lights at night would probably like to know too.


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## garvin (May 7, 2002)

I believe the 'apply footbrake before selecting drive' interlock is to stop the car moving off and nudging anything in front (or behind). In a 'slushmatic' the handbrake is usually man enough to hold the vehicle against the torque converter but, with 'proper' clutches, the DSG will engage drive and, on mine at least, it can overcome the handbrake unless it is really hauled on, especially when cold and the idle revs are high.

I also believe that the clutch is not engaged when the footbrake is applied so there is naturally a delay whilst you go from brake to throttle to allow the clutch to engage progressively. Move quickly and mash the throttle and the DSG assumes, correctly, that you want to move off pretty smartish so the clutch is banged in and away you go - good for the traffic light Grand Prix but a bit harsh for normal driving. So either don't mash the throttle or utilise a bit of anticipation and let the drive 'take up the slack' when you come off the brake before hitting the throttle and you can achieve very smart but smooth take-offs. Yes, you do need to learn how to drive a DSG to get the best from it!

Regarding the delay when trying to pull out quickly at junctions - I believe this happens when the car has not come to a complete standstill and is still in third gear whilst slowing down. In this condition a full throttle demand will cause the DSG to move from third to first on that particular clutch which takes some time ....... not a lot but it is perceptible and results in that 'heart-in-mouth' feeling as it is not immediate. Knowing this allows you to avoid this situation - either don't use too much throttle so second gear is good enough or use that anticipation again and use the paddles to ensure you are in first before going for the throttle. Again, you do need to learn how to drive a DSG to get the best from it.


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## Mack The Knife (Jun 14, 2007)

garvin said:


> I believe the 'apply footbrake before selecting drive' interlock is to stop the car moving off and nudging anything in front (or behind).


Indeed but it does also lock above 0.1mph so can be a problem unless D is religiously selected whilst absolutely stationery. Can the speed threshold be changed?



garvin said:


> I also believe that the clutch is not engaged when the footbrake is applied so there is naturally a delay whilst you go from brake to throttle to allow the clutch to engage progressively. Move quickly and mash the throttle and the DSG assumes, correctly, that you want to move off pretty smartish so the clutch is banged in and away you go - good for the traffic light Grand Prix but a bit harsh for normal driving. So either don't mash the throttle or utilise a bit of anticipation and let the drive 'take up the slack' when you come off the brake before hitting the throttle and you can achieve very smart but smooth take-offs. Yes, you do need to learn how to drive a DSG to get the best from it!


The clutch is disengaged when stationary with foot-brake applied. However first gear will be selected so the DSG only needs to engage clutch 1 to go, nothing more, and the delay we experience is a lot more than the 8ms the DSG needs to engage a clutch. Why is that?



garvin said:


> Regarding the delay when trying to pull out quickly at junctions - I believe this happens when the car has not come to a complete standstill and is still in third gear whilst slowing down. In this condition a full throttle demand will cause the DSG to move from third to first on that particular clutch which takes some time ....... not a lot but it is perceptible and results in that 'heart-in-mouth' feeling as it is not immediate. Knowing this allows you to avoid this situation - either don't use too much throttle so second gear is good enough or use that anticipation again and use the paddles to ensure you are in first before going for the throttle. Again, you do need to learn how to drive a DSG to get the best from it.


I was talking about this happening from stationary so the DSG will have selected first gear.
Like a said initially,


Mack The Knife said:


> 4. INITIAL POWER DELIVERY DELAY
> ...from stationary...A smooth pick-up can be guaranteed every time with a lightly feathered throttle to start with. But sometimes when you've got to go - you've got to go. And it does seem daft holding the launch control at somewhat higher than idle revs whilst sitting at every T junction!


So, same question, why the very significant delay?


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## philbur (Apr 15, 2007)

This is not even close to my experience, even light throttle produces nothing in the way of forward motion. In any case if you have come effectively to a stop at the junction why would it wait in 3rd and not already have changed to 1st. Also the delay is close to 2 seconds not milliseconds.

Phil



garvin said:


> Regarding the delay when trying to pull out quickly at junctions - I believe this happens when the car has not come to a complete standstill and is still in third gear whilst slowing down. In this condition a full throttle demand will cause the DSG to move from third to first on that particular clutch which takes some time


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## Arne (Dec 13, 2006)

philbur said:


> This is not even close to my experience, even light throttle produces nothing in the way of forward motion. In any case if you have come effectively to a stop at the junction why would it wait in 3rd and not already have changed to 1st. Also the delay is close to 2 seconds not milliseconds.
> 
> Phil


I have never experienced anything remotely like that.... :?


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## garvin (May 7, 2002)

Mack The Knife said:


> Indeed but it does also lock above 0.1mph so can be a problem unless D is religiously selected whilst absolutely stationery. Can the speed threshold be changed?


It's software controlled so presumably, yes it can if you can 'hack' the software or persuade Audi to change it.



Mack The Knife said:


> The clutch is disengaged when stationary with foot-brake applied. However first gear will be selected so the DSG only needs to engage clutch 1 to go, nothing more, and the delay we experience is a lot more than the 8ms the DSG needs to engage a clutch. Why is that?


The 8ms figure is that required to change once on the move. If the clutch were 'banged in' in 8ms whilst stationary with no throttle the car will stall - just like a manual will if you 'side foot' the clutch with no throttle applied. Indeed, if you hit the throttle hard then the clutch does engage very quickly and you are propelled foward with quite a jolt. Therefore, from stationary, the DSG does a progressive engagement of the clutch based on throttle inout. The DSG can only respond to actual inputs - it cannot predict what you are going to do with the throttle so one has to learn how to drive it.



Mack The Knife said:


> I was talking about this happening from stationary so the DSG will have selected first gear.


Well, all I can say is that mine has never done this from being absolutely stationary.



Mack The Knife said:


> Like a said initially,
> 
> 
> Mack The Knife said:
> ...


See above - from stationary the DSG makes a progressive application of the clutch to prevent stalling i.e. it must see the throttle begin to open before speeding up engagment of the clutch to prevent stalling.


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## garvin (May 7, 2002)

philbur said:


> This is not even close to my experience, even light throttle produces nothing in the way of forward motion. In any case if you have come effectively to a stop at the junction why would it wait in 3rd and not already have changed to 1st. Also the delay is close to 2 seconds not milliseconds.
> 
> Phil
> 
> ...


I never said it would wait, stationary, in third gear. I said that if you applied throttle before coming to a complete standstill then the DSG has to change from third to either first or second to move off. Second gear can be engaged quicker than first. If very light 'feathered' throttle is applied whilst still moving in third gear then this can conceivably result in the software having to wait to see if this is a real demand for acceleration or not. Indeed, even if the DSG has changed down to second then it may still have third selected on the first clutch as the car has not come to a complete standstill. As for delays being two seconds I have never, ever experienced such a delay at any time under any condition. When the DSG doesn't do what you would like it to the delay can seem like two seconds but I doubt very much if it is anywhere close to that. If it is on yours then it must be faulty.


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## philbur (Apr 15, 2007)

Seems that not all S tronic systems are equal then.

This is not my imagination a 2 second delay is probably an under-estimate.

Example: Approaching a roundabout, braking normally (left foot) as you get close. Almost stationary but no approaching traffic is close so ease off on the brake and apply light throttle with left foot coming off the brake. You roll out onto the roundabout but no engine response for a long, long time, you glance out of the side window and the other driver, who was originally some distance off, is now stationary waiting for you move out of his way with a questioning look on his face.

Phil



Arne said:


> philbur said:
> 
> 
> > This is not even close to my experience, even light throttle produces nothing in the way of forward motion. In any case if you have come effectively to a stop at the junction why would it wait in 3rd and not already have changed to 1st. Also the delay is close to 2 seconds not milliseconds.
> ...


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## brittan (May 18, 2007)

What happens if you try the same thing but braking with the right foot so there is never both pedals being pressed together?


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## squiggel (May 16, 2006)

philbur said:


> braking normally (*left foot*)


That's normal??? :!:


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## philbur (Apr 15, 2007)

Why not, it's kinda sitting there with nothing better to do. Its alot quicker than moving the right foot over, especially when it matters.

Have I developed a bad habit for driving an automatic?

Phil



squiggel said:


> philbur said:
> 
> 
> > braking normally (*left foot*)
> ...


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## philbur (Apr 15, 2007)

Yes but that doesn't explain why the gearbox (sorry, engine) needs to go to sleep, unless it's Audi's punishment for inapropriate use.

Phil



VicTT said:


> What happens if you try the same thing but braking with the right foot so there is never both pedals being pressed together?


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## Mack The Knife (Jun 14, 2007)

philbur said:


> You roll out onto the roundabout but no engine response for a long, long time, you glance out of the side window and the other driver, who was originally some distance off, is now stationary waiting for you move out of his way with a questioning look on his face.


 
Yep, been there... [smiley=bomb.gif] :?

I don't think the power delivery delay from stationary is 2s but it can certainly be unnerving!

I would say left-foot braking is ideal whenever there's no clutch pedal; both for safety (can always cover the brake) and performance.
Here we are talking about occasional transmission delays - so surely no-one sees any need to make then even longer by moving the right foot around from pedal to pedal?

Anyway, completely back on topic...

I appreciate Arne's comments that a re-map can improve matters. How about VAGCOM - can that change anything useful?

I also would note that upon the releasing foot-brake from stationary the DSG will engage the clutch without any throttle.
Therefore, in the too familiar manoeuvre we could now call "Philbur Is Still Sitting Entering Roundabout" ,or PISSER, why does the DSG need to wait for light throttle input to get going?


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## Scooby-Doo (Sep 29, 2006)

I'm glad I specced manual,had enough of the dreaded delay before you go in the Merc.


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## philbur (Apr 15, 2007)

PISSER would be the more descriptive. Even with light throttle input nothing happens until the engine decides it's ready, which can be a couple of seconds, honest.

I'll have to find an empty car park and check the time delay.

Phil

PS: I had two ocurrances of this before I even got it off the dealer's forecourt. The second time I had lots of throttle, in an attempt to get it out of the way of on coming traffic, before the engine kicked in. Impressed the hell out of the saleman, scare the shit out of me.



Mack The Knife said:


> Therefore, in the too familiar manoeuvre we could now call "Philbur Is Still Sitting Entering Roundabout" ,or PISSER, why does the DSG need to wait for light throttle input to get going?


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

My car doesn't suffer any delay or pause. Its awesome.


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## philbur (Apr 15, 2007)

Read my lips.

Phil

PS: I'm not a hairdresser or a 15 year old schoolgirl prone to histeria. I'm a professional mechanical engineer with 35 years working experience. I know what 2 f*cking seconds looks lke.



garvin said:


> I have never, ever experienced such a delay at any time under any condition. When the DSG doesn't do what you would like it to the delay can seem like two seconds but I doubt very much if it is anywhere close to that.


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## markrbooth (Sep 25, 2006)

philbur said:


> Seems that not all S tronic systems are equal then.
> 
> This is not my imagination a 2 second delay is probably an under-estimate.
> 
> Example: Approaching a roundabout, braking normally (left foot) as you get close. Almost stationary but no approaching traffic is close so ease off on the brake and apply light throttle with left foot coming off the brake. You roll out onto the roundabout but no engine response for a long, long time, you glance out of the side window and the other driver, who was originally some distance off, is now stationary waiting for you move out of his way with a questioning look on his face.


My wife had this exact same problem on our test drive and was left red faced on a roundabout with a horn blaring at her so she immediately refused to even consider the DSG. I wanted a 2.0 DSG and she wanted a 3.2 manual. Guess who wears the trousers in our house


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## garvin (May 7, 2002)

philbur said:


> Read my lips.
> 
> Phil
> 
> ...


Not a schoolgirl but a professional mechanical engineer of 35 years working experience ............. that can't understand written English!! Please read all that is written and don't take things out of context - you seem to have deliberately ignored the final sentence of that post which stated, and I quote, *"If it is on yours then it must be faulty"* i.e. if there really is a 2 second delay then it is not normal.

Now, and only now, do you start to explain that you are left foot braking and I suspect that the problem is not the DSG but the engine ECU which cuts power for simultaneous brake and throttle so if you hit the throttle very, very quickly and possibly before you are fully off the brake then I would contend that the ecu will take a finite time to work out what is required and coupled with the fact that the car is still rolling and the DSG will have to change gear as well might well explain the delay you are experiencing.


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## SolidSnake3035 (Jan 5, 2008)

I still don't understand why the car cuts power when the brake is applied... would someone perhaps be able to explain that a bit? It seems like it would really get in the way in certain situations...

Also, what's the deal with the launch control? I thought this utilized something with the brake...


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

if it didn't cut power that would mean its working against the engine when you try to brake. Sounds logical to me.


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## SolidSnake3035 (Jan 5, 2008)

It would seem to make more sense to apply the clutch and let it be in neutral so you could basically rev the engine while holding the brake.

Or something... :?


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## Rebel (Feb 12, 2005)

Very funny thread :lol:

We already talked 23 times about DSG and the technic from DSG last year, and still every months there is a new thread with all kind of people who think they know exactly how it works, and which gearbox is the best.

Go on, please don't stop.... :wink:


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

You tell us rob, i'll agree with you.


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## garvin (May 7, 2002)

Rebel said:


> Very funny thread :lol:
> 
> We already talked 23 times about DSG and the technic from DSG last year, and still every months there is a new thread with all kind of people who think they know exactly how it works, and which gearbox is the best.
> 
> Go on, please don't stop.... :wink:


And your contribution is ..........

If you are lucky enough to really know how the DSG works in detail then please direct me to where I might find the software algorithms .......... or perhaps you can post them up yourself.

If you don't know how it works then why begrudge people trying to ascertain and understand the reasons behind the 'foibles' they perceive with the DSG.

Either way, your stance of superiority and mocking people is not appreciated ........... well not by me anyway, so please go off and engage your intellect on other more interesting techncial topics ............ perhaps the very exciting and challenging sagging seat saga for example!!


----------



## Rebel (Feb 12, 2005)

Garvin please go on with you're algorithms -lesson's. Just act like i'm not here. I like to listen to smart people who are specialized in these things.

almost pissed myself after reading page 4 in this thread. :lol: :lol:


----------



## garvin (May 7, 2002)

Rebel said:


> Garvin please go on with you're algorithms -lesson's. Just act like i'm not here. I like to listen to smart people who are specialized in these things.
> 
> almost pissed myself after reading page 4 in this thread. :lol: :lol:


So, contibution ....... zip; actual knowledge ........... also zip; ability in written English ....... absolutley zip.

PMSL at your attempts to write anything grammatically correct so obviously didn't listen to any specialised English teacher then :lol: :lol:


----------



## Rebel (Feb 12, 2005)

Yess i did, but that's a long time ago.
Sorry for my bad english, i'm not from the UK.
I'm doing my very best, but i don't like posting with a dictionairy beside my keyboard.
I could write a german/dutch/ french translation below every english post, specialy for you, if you think that would be better?

on topic, i posted already a lot of comment's on several DSG thread's. And everytime new people show up like you who are a much more better technician than me, so i only listen.

Like i said before, please go on. These threads are much and much better than "i've kerbed my wheel" and "sagging leather seat's" threads.
I promised i won't laugh anymore :wink:


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## CraigyTT (Oct 19, 2006)

SolidSnake3035 said:


> I still don't understand why the car cuts power when the brake is applied... would someone perhaps be able to explain that a bit? It seems like it would really get in the way in certain situations...


It does get in the way in certain situations, I have found on my manual 2.0 T.
I suppose the engineers put this "feature" in to stop the clutch/brakes from wearing out if someone does it repeatedly, or not on purpose - I suppose they have to design features for hamfisted drivers.

The manual-gearboxed TT apparently also recently gained a "feature" where the engine won't start unless the clutch pedal is pressed - I suspect this is to avoid litigation in the USA. Similar sort of thing, perhaps? (Mine's an earlyish car, from Jan 2007, and doesn't require me to do that).

On a totally different topic, is it just me or has this thread got a bit nasty in tone recently? (nothing to do with you, SolidSnake; I mean some of the others)

C


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

Don't dis my seats thread.


----------



## Rebel (Feb 12, 2005)

Damn, you are everywere Kevin ! Are you stalkin me :wink:


----------



## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

Im bored.


----------



## squiggel (May 16, 2006)

I usually drop into S mde while approaching a roundabout, as D is a bit too slow in picking up in those situations. And thats braking with my right foot. Never any kind of 2 second delay though.


----------



## philbur (Apr 15, 2007)

Sorry but the phrase "If it is on yours ....." suggests you don't believe me as I've just said that "It is on mine". I think you conveyed what you meant to convey. The correct, polite phrase that you should have use is "As it is on yours ....".

Phil

PS: possibly you need the english lesson. 

PPS: A genuine question: How many of you guys left foot brake in an automatic.



garvin said:


> philbur said:
> 
> 
> > Read my lips.
> ...


----------



## CraigyTT (Oct 19, 2006)

philbur said:


> PPS: A genuine question: How many of you guys left foot brake in an automatic.


Just to be complete:
When I'm driving an Auto, I left foot brake.
When I'm driving a Manual, I left foot brake.

C


----------



## Rebel (Feb 12, 2005)

I can push the throttle and brake at the same time.
Can't remember if it worked also before the ABT remap, too long ago.


----------



## Mack The Knife (Jun 14, 2007)

CraigyTT said:


> When I'm driving an Auto, I left foot brake.
> When I'm driving a Manual, I left foot brake.


 :lol: :lol:


----------



## philbur (Apr 15, 2007)

I did some testing yesterday. Spent 45 minutes trying to replicate the â€œ2 second delayâ€ but failed to do so. During all attempts (possibly as many as 50) the system was quite happy for me to brake and use the throttle at the same time. The engine, brakes and gear box at all times behaved exactly as you would expect without any software interference i.e. the software control was invisible. So this leaves me with a random occurring anomaly that turns up without warning on average 3 times a month.

Question: Before I discuss this with the dealer has anybody else experienced the â€œ2 second delayâ€ scenario.

Definition of â€œ2 second delayâ€ observed with S Tronic:

_Pull away from stationary or a slow rolling start, possibly with simultaneous use of the foot brake and the throttle. Apply part throttle in order to accelerate away, the engine remains or reverts to idle and the gearbox appears to disengage the clutch(s). Car remains stationary for something in the order of 2 SECONDS before it responds to the throttle, at which point the car resumes normal behaviour._

Phil


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## Jimbo2 (Nov 30, 2006)

Mack The Knife said:


> Jimbo2 said:
> 
> 
> > As far as I can tell, this is only from P - it's possible to move to D from N or R without application of the brake, at least at parking speeds...
> ...


Tried this last night and the car is perfectly happy to go from D to N and back again at 20mph without use of the brake (either left or right foot :wink: ) or even the gear lock.


----------



## RockinRobin (Jul 7, 2007)

Very slightly off subject but to move from D to S in my car I must press in the button. To move back however I don't is this the same with yours ?

The reason I ask is that the leather gaitor seems to be folded over twice and stopping the lever from fully "clicking" or "seating" into the S position and I'm wondering if that's why it allows me to just "push" the lever back to D without the need for the button.

Oh and yes the S mode works just fine, never jumps out, no matter how hard I try


----------



## brittan (May 18, 2007)

RockinRobin said:


> Very slightly off subject but to move from D to S in my car I must press in the button. To move back however I don't is this the same with yours ?


Yes. That's exactly the same as mine.

On the D to N subject, you can do D to N to R and vice versa if you do it fairly quickly. If you pause in N then you have to put foot on brake to move out of N. This restriction is locked out above a certain speed for D to N and vice versa. Maybe you can do R to N and back on the move if you are going backwards . . . . . . . . . . . .


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## Mack The Knife (Jun 14, 2007)

OK, I did some more research today.

1. GEARBOX INTERLOCK
This is the requirement to press the foot-brake before you can shift the gearbox from the neutral to drive.
It doesn't exist at 0mph (at least not soon after stopping).
It doesn't exist at 2mph or above.
It does apply between 0-2mph: A bit of a pain moving out from neutral at a crawl (e.g. 1mph), e.g. on a slope.

2. LIMIT ON SIMULTANEOUS BRAKE + ACCELERATOR
I think this is purely a time limit not a torque limit.
The system then inhibits the throttle for a separate time delay which I have timed (roughly) at 2s: Now that's a long time. I think its quite punitive too because if its aim is to save the engine/gearbox/brakes from simultaneous brake+accelerator then it should re-enable the throttle immediately afterwards.
I'd be interested to know if others agree with the time delay after the brake is released (keep some throttle planted) - and whether it is any different on the Manual (Craig... ?).

Has anyone else tested further...


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## CraigyTT (Oct 19, 2006)

Mack The Knife said:


> I'd be interested to know if others agree with the time delay after the brake is released (keep some throttle planted) - and whether it is any different on the Manual (Craig... ?).
> 
> Has anyone else tested further...


I can have a look at this (perhaps video it) on the way to work today. If I don't have time, then this will sit in my "to do" for at least a week as I'm off skiing.

C


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## philbur (Apr 15, 2007)

As Iâ€™m sure you know I agree with the 2 seconds. However I am having trouble replicating it on demand. It seems to only occur under very specific conditions (while stationary or with slow forward motion), 99% of the time simultaneous brake/accelerator under these conditions works without incident.

Can you describe the procedure that produces the delay.

Phil



Mack The Knife said:


> OK, I did some more research today.
> 
> I'd be interested to know if others agree with the time delay after the brake is released (keep some throttle planted)
> 
> Has anyone else tested further...


----------



## Jimbo2 (Nov 30, 2006)

Mack The Knife said:


> OK, I did some more research today.
> 
> 1. GEARBOX INTERLOCK
> This is the requirement to press the foot-brake before you can shift the gearbox from the neutral to drive.
> ...


Let's get this straight.. you're saying that there is a physical interlock between N and D which is only active at 1mph? And it is not there at 2mph?

And you crawl on a slope *in neutral* at 1 mph regularly enough for this to be a problem? :lol:

Maybe you should consider one of these instead of a TT...?










:twisted:

PS. Thanks to Rebel for modelling the C5 so well :wink:


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## Mack The Knife (Jun 14, 2007)

philbur said:


> As Iâ€™m sure you know I agree with the 2 seconds. However I am having trouble replicating it on demand. It seems to only occur under very specific conditions (while stationary or with slow forward motion), 99% of the time simultaneous brake/accelerator under these conditions works without incident.
> 
> Can you describe the procedure that produces the delay.



Drove along a straight and level road at c30mph[/*]
Dropped it down a gear (or two) to ensure significant revs[/*]
Held the throttle for constant speed[/*]
Simultaneously braked and increased the throttle to try and maintain speed[/*]
Waited for the ECU to cut the throttle[/*]
Released the brake and timed until the throttle came back on tap[/*]


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## CraigyTT (Oct 19, 2006)

Interesting...

There are actually two conditions here that I have tried and they result in different behaviour:

I found on my travels that


If you have a constant throttle (say 6000rpm in 2nd) and then apply brakes and go for full throttle, the throttle cuts out until you get off the brakes totally and then stays cut for about a second, gradually increasing after that back to full power after about a further second.[/*]
If you apply no throttle at all, and are braking, then you can get on the gas, it will pick up immediately and run hard against the brakes, no problem at all.[/*]
For anyone who doesn't believe that the throttle cuts out in the first situation I described above, I have a video of it happening in my car... I have posted now..

Yes, I am wearing nomex racing boots, yes I am wearing bike clips on my denims (otherwise you'd never be able to see my feet), yes my car pedals need a clean, no I don't really care (I was on a farm recently).





*Video description as follows:
0.0s to 1.0s both feet off pedals. Car in gear (3rd).
1.0s to 1.7s accelerator floored. Stays floored until test complete.
1.7s to 2.5s foot moved over to rest on brake pedal
2.5s to 3.5s checking for hazards (looks like I'm doing nothing).
3.5s to 4.7s braking
4.7s to 4.9s taking foot off brake completely
5.0s to 7.5s waiting for engine to pick up
7.5s to end engine picks up gradually and is at full power just when I lift off the gas*

C


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## philbur (Apr 15, 2007)

Once is all you need in order to get wiped out at a tee junction or roundabout.

Phil



Jimbo2 said:


> And you crawl on a slope *in neutral* at 1 mph regularly enough for this to be a problem? :lol:


----------



## CraigyTT (Oct 19, 2006)

See my previous post for the video. Sorry for this post being slightly meaningless except as a pointer to the one above..

:roll:

C


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## Mack The Knife (Jun 14, 2007)

CraigyTT said:


> Yes, I am wearing nomex racing boots, yes I am wearing bike clips on my denims (otherwise you'd never be able to see my feet), yes my car pedals need a clean, no I don't really care


LOL :lol:  

and they're fluorescent trouser clips too :lol:   :lol:



CraigyTT said:


> I was on a farm recently


Possibly too much information :?:

Sweet video Craig - you are dedicated.

Next can we have one with a matching inset image of the instrument cluster?

And possibly with another of the wonderful Hampshire countryside?

:wink:

P.S. Happy skiing


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## squiggel (May 16, 2006)

The video makes the point so much more eloquently than several pages of posts...

The Audi logic is well and truly screwed in how it reacts to left foot braking....


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## Jimbo2 (Nov 30, 2006)

philbur said:


> Once is all you need in order to get wiped out at a tee junction or roundabout.
> 
> Phil
> 
> ...


Anyone who deliberately rolls into a T or a roundabout in neutral has got it coming to them. Sorry.

Using N regularly as part of your driving style doesn't save anything anyway - when you put it into N the car idles at higher revs, and when you put it into D again the box has to go through the whole engage process. If anything I would expect that you'll be shortening the life of the box.

Couple of interesting links :

RoSPA link - general tips for driving an auto

Wiki on DSG

YouTube vid of a DSG in action


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## philbur (Apr 15, 2007)

You are of course right, although the proposed punishment for doing so is a littel harsh.

My actual scenario is: As you approach a roundabout (in D) and have slowed to a crawl, you determine that there is no immediate oncoming traffic so you lift your foot of the brake, the car continues onto the roundabout but doesn't react to the throttle for a couple of seconds.

The link you posted contained the following:

"Because the DSG ECU uses "fuzzy logic", the operation of the DSG is said to be "adaptive", that is, the DSG will "learn" how the user drives the car, and will tailor the shift points accordingly."

Do you know if the ECU retains the "learning from previous journeys or does it "zero" at the start of each.

Phil



Jimbo2 said:


> Anyone who deliberately rolls into a T or a roundabout in neutral has got it coming to them. Sorry.


----------



## Mack The Knife (Jun 14, 2007)

Jimbo2 said:


> Anyone who deliberately rolls into a T or a roundabout in neutral has got it coming to them.


Crikey, where did this idea come from?

For clarity (1), one of my initial points (top of page one!) was about GEARBOX INTERLOCK and a typical scenario would be whilst stationary (e.g. waiting at a level crossing, extended red traffic light or complete gridlock) when it would be appropriate to be in neutral (with or without the engine running). If the car is on a very slight downward slope (say just enough to overcome rolling resistance) and there is then a need to move forward a metre or so then no need to use the transmission. However, if there is then a need to GO the DSG doesn't allow selection of N to D whilst the speed is, say, 0.1 - 2mph.

For clarity (2), in the PISSER example the car would be in D.



Jimbo2 said:


> Using N regularly as part of your driving style doesn't save anything anyway


I don't know what your point is here: Who suggested "using N regularly as part of your driving style"?



Jimbo2 said:


> when you put it into N the car idles at higher revs


I don't know what your point is here: If the revs increase (very slightly) from stationary D to N then its simply because the load on the engine has been reduced.



Jimbo2 said:


> and when you put it into D again the box has to go through the whole engage process. If anything I would expect that you'll be shortening the life of the box.


When stationary Gear 1 remains selected and Clutch1 remains disengaged. Where's the whole "engage process"?



Jimbo2 said:


> RoSPA link - general tips for driving an auto


By the way, the ROSPA link appears quite irrelevant - it is about torque converter gearboxes, nothing to do with DSG.


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## squiggel (May 16, 2006)

Jimbo2 said:


> Using N regularly as part of your driving style doesn't save anything anyway - when you put it into N the car idles at higher revs, and when you put it into D again the box has to go through the whole engage process. If anything I would expect that you'll be shortening the life of the box.


Disagree on all points. Dont think you'll gain much in economy but if you coast down a long downhill in neutral you will use less fuel han leaving it in gear as the drag when it's in gear wont let it coast anywhere near the same distance...

And it's just another clutch engagement when you put it back in drive, so dont see it doing anything to the life of the box...

It's a habit I got into at the end of my daily commute when I had a scooby turbo... If I was doing 80 at a certain point just over a mile from my house and dropped into neutral, the resultant coast gave me a nice 1 minute+ cooldown of my turbo, and arrived at my drive at the right speed to turn in, instead of sitting in my car idling when I got there to circulate oil through the turbo...


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## spook (Dec 14, 2007)

squiggel said:


> Jimbo2 said:
> 
> 
> > Using N regularly as part of your driving style doesn't save anything anyway - when you put it into N the car idles at higher revs, and when you put it into D again the box has to go through the whole engage process. If anything I would expect that you'll be shortening the life of the box.
> ...


All well and good, until something unexpected happens and you need some instant power to get yourself out of the sh1t. By the time you have reacted to the situation, selected D from N, and the S-Tronic has faffed around selecting a gear, it's too late and you're left whistling Dixie....


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## Jimbo2 (Nov 30, 2006)

Mack The Knife said:


> Jimbo2 said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone who deliberately rolls into a T or a roundabout in neutral has got it coming to them.
> ...


Just responding to philbur's earlier post.



Mack The Knife said:


> For clarity (1), one of my initial points (top of page one!) was about GEARBOX INTERLOCK and a typical scenario would be whilst stationary (e.g. waiting at a level crossing, extended red traffic light or complete gridlock) when it would be appropriate to be in neutral (with or without the engine running). If the car is on a very slight downward slope (say just enough to overcome rolling resistance) and there is then a need to move forward a metre or so then no need to use the transmission. However, if there is then a need to GO the DSG doesn't allow selection of N to D whilst the speed is, say, 0.1 - 2mph.


My point is that, no matter how many times I try, I cannot replicate that.



Mack The Knife said:


> For clarity (2), in the PISSER example the car would be in D.


Totally agree, I think that might have been what philbur was alluding to.



Mack The Knife said:


> Jimbo2 said:
> 
> 
> > Using N regularly as part of your driving style doesn't save anything anyway
> ...


I get the impression that some people are popping the box into N whenever they are coming to a standstill or are standing at lights, etc.



Mack The Knife said:


> Jimbo2 said:
> 
> 
> > when you put it into N the car idles at higher revs
> ...


Actually, tested this again last night and noticed that, at standstill, the revs don't move at all when selecting N. So, correction there.



Mack The Knife said:


> Jimbo2 said:
> 
> 
> > and when you put it into D again the box has to go through the whole engage process. If anything I would expect that you'll be shortening the life of the box.
> ...


The process from going from N to D. AFAIK, in N no gear is selected, to allow the driver to chose D or R.



Mack The Knife said:


> Jimbo2 said:
> 
> 
> > RoSPA link - general tips for driving an auto
> ...


Agree, although the principal of driving one is the same. As you state above, the DSG disengages clutch 1 at standstill, which has the same effect as a torque convertor in a conventional box, i.e. to prevent torque from the engine from reaching the driven wheels. The advice on the site is to leave the car in D when stationary in traffic.

We seem to be agreeing that the box is effectively in N at a standstill. So what would be the benefit of physically selecting N, unless you were planning to be at a standstill for an extended period of time?


----------



## Jimbo2 (Nov 30, 2006)

squiggel said:


> Jimbo2 said:
> 
> 
> > Using N regularly as part of your driving style doesn't save anything anyway - when you put it into N the car idles at higher revs, and when you put it into D again the box has to go through the whole engage process. If anything I would expect that you'll be shortening the life of the box.
> ...


This actually works really well in a manual car. There were times in the past where I was stuck on a motorway, and the nearest petrol was further than the amount of fuel I had left. Speeding up to 70ish and then detclutching and allowing the car to coast down to 50, then gently going back up to 70 was a good way of extending the range. Leaving it in gear meant that I could have accelerated out of trouble if needed.

I dont think you can (safely) apply this to s-tronic tho...


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## sane eric (Jul 19, 2007)

Jimbo2 said:


> squiggel said:
> 
> 
> > Jimbo2 said:
> ...


You are right, coasting in gear is more economical than coasting in neutral (putting all other factors to one side, safety etc) in a manual.


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## Mack The Knife (Jun 14, 2007)

At very low speeds I've noticed a lurching at constant throttle.

E.g. in a traffic queue or a slow manoeuvre up an incline.
DSG in normal Drive mode has selected 2nd gear and when I apply a CONSTANT throttle it results in revs oscillating 1000-1300rpm with a commensurate variation in road speed (so presumably no clutch slip) - hence car lurching.
If I then remove all throttle, the revs obviously drop but the speed is then constant (DSG maintains 2nd gear on 'tick over').
Or if I maintain the previous constant throttle but then select 1st gear manually it maintains a (obviously slightly lower) constant, smooth speed.

Any ideas anyone?

I also believe DSG in normal Drive mode won't change down from 2nd to 1st gear whilst moving - paddle down does nothing. Is this a problem? Whilst moving in 2nd gear, 1st gear can only be obtained by shifting to "Sport" or 'left of Drive' mode. Is that right?


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

I'm sure i can force mine into first without being at a stop in D mode. Use mine all the time in London traffic and i don't get what you are describing.


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## Jimbo2 (Nov 30, 2006)

Agree with Tosh... however, I get exactly what you are describing in S mode.

Braking gently to a stop in S mode can be fun too, as it has a tendancy to kick and lurch as it changes gear. It's the worse "feature" of DSG (IMO).


----------



## Mack The Knife (Jun 14, 2007)

Toshiba said:


> I'm sure i can force mine into first without being at a stop in D mode. Use mine all the time in London traffic and i don't get what you are describing.


Are you dead sure? If so, how much do I need to offer to buy yours? 



Jimbo2 said:


> Agree with Tosh... however, I get exactly what you are describing in S mode.
> 
> Braking gently to a stop in S mode can be fun too, as it has a tendancy to kick and lurch as it changes gear. It's the worse "feature" of DSG (IMO).


Jimbo are you saying you get the lurching at constant throttle, but only in S mode?
If so, in which gear(s) and under which conditions?


----------



## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

Mack The Knife said:


> Toshiba said:
> 
> 
> > I'm sure i can force mine into first without being at a stop in D mode. Use mine all the time in London traffic and i don't get what you are describing.
> ...


I will double check tonight and post up late on. Wednesday night is beer night.

Its going in a few months, id sell it at dealer trade price plus Â£101


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## Mack The Knife (Jun 14, 2007)

Toshiba said:


> I will double check tonight and post up late on. Wednesday night is beer night.


Tosh,

I realise it's two beer night's since but can you add any more?


----------



## Jimbo2 (Nov 30, 2006)

Mack The Knife said:


> Jimbo2 said:
> 
> 
> > Agree with Tosh... however, I get exactly what you are describing in S mode.
> ...


1 and 2 and when moving up hill - if i touched the throttle too much it would pop into 1 from 2 which caused a slight lurch. Easing off would not be smooth either. TBH, as soon as I noticed, I would put it back into D.

All in past tense - the car went in for it's first service last week, and I asked them to update all the software. Since then, the S-tronic has been behaving slightly differently :

* Shows 1 in D mode at standstill (never used to - was always 2)
* D mode seems more responsive. There's a roundabout on my commute which would normally invoke the PISSER response - i.e. the box takes it's sweet time to choose a gear once you have commited to entering the roundabout. Since the upgrade this hasn't happened (may just be good luck tho).
* S mode is much more responsive- it changes down much earlier than before when overtaking. Easiest way to describe this would be the go pedal position - before, the pedal travel would be 2 inches to get it to change down a gear, now it's only 1 inch.  
* S mode is smoother when braking - still get some lurching when braking but before it was enough to give me minor whiplash. Now, it's a lot smoother.

Not tried the slow crawl in S since the service so can't comment if that is any better.

Mack, with the symptoms you have been posting, it might be worth asking your dealer to update your cars software, see if there are any changes?


----------



## Mack The Knife (Jun 14, 2007)

Jim,
Thanks for your news/comments.



Jimbo2 said:


> Mack, with the symptoms you have been posting, it might be worth asking your dealer to update your cars software, see if there are any changes?


*Very* good point.

Does anyone know when the update(s) were embodied in production?

(My TTC was delivered Sep07)


----------



## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

Sorry,

I can put the car into first in either D or S upto about 30mph.


----------



## Mack The Knife (Jun 14, 2007)

Toshiba said:


> Sorry,
> 
> I can put the car into first in either D or S upto about 30mph.


Well I can always select 1st gear with a flappy paddle in "left-of-D" and "S" (below 30mph that is!).

In standard "D" I can select 1st gear with a flappy paddle at all speeds (within rev range) EXCEPT around 3-7mph.

Is that WEIRD or what?

Methinks my DSG has a number of real problems all restricted to around the 3-7mph range.


----------



## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

I'll try it tomorrow morning between 3-7mph.


----------



## Mack The Knife (Jun 14, 2007)

Toshiba said:


> I'll try it tomorrow morning between 3-7mph.


Did you discover anything of note?


----------



## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

Hi, below 6mph in D i can not select 1st. S or manual if fine, as is D above 7mph.


----------



## Mack The Knife (Jun 14, 2007)

'Big Ben' , thanks for your very helpful comments;

(a) reassuring that seemingly not being able to select 1st gear between, say 2-6mph, with the paddles whilst in plain "D" is "normal", and

(b) perpetuating my confusion as to why Audi would have configured the software/parameters in that way.

I started this post with


Mack The Knife said:


> I love the DSG box and would always choose it on the TT. So on balance, it's brilliant (and the future).
> 
> However, it does have a few, ahem, imperfections.
> 
> ...


and I listed four points.

I now have a fifth:

5. OSCILLATING REVS/SPEED
In plain "D", at low speeds and in 2nd gear, say around 1400rpm, and very light, if any, throttle I find the car can 'kangaroo'. It seems that the clutch isn't slipping at all because the revs and the speed seem to oscilate together.
If I apply a tadge more throttle the problem disappears - but then of course I will also have increased speed. So the problem remains for low-speed manoeuvres.
And, of course, if this is happening around 3-7mph I can't manually select first with the paddles (nothing happens) - instead I have to use the gear lever to either (a) select 'left-of-D' and then use it or the paddle to select a down-shift, or (b) select "S".
My original thought was that the ECU was overriding the throttle input in an oscillatory way, to prevent stalling, but why oh why doesn't it automatically select 1st gear if it thinks 2nd gear is too high a gear?
Then, the other day, I noticed the same think whilst reversing up a slope slowly to avoid an obstacle - the ECU increasing revs (and speed) was NOT appreciated by me.

Anybody else notice similar behaviour?


----------



## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

It does ring a bell. I'll try tomorrow morning, or later today if i get the car out.

Do you have a T or a V - might make a difference ie when the turbo starts to spin.


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## Mack The Knife (Jun 14, 2007)

Toshiba said:


> It does ring a bell. I'll try tomorrow morning, or later today if i get the car out.
> 
> Do you have a T or a V - might make a difference ie when the turbo starts to spin.


T.
The surging can be c1000-1400rpm.
Whereas, I don't feel the turbo boost until c1750rpm.

P.S. did you try?


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