# ELISE S1 Vs EVO 4 Vs Classic Subaru STI-possibly a skyline?



## t5ttr (Dec 6, 2006)

Hi all , 
During the last few weeks i have been thinking about buying a additional car to the the TT. The cars i have been thinking of are stated in the subject . The reason for these cars is that i think they would be exciting to drive however i am not sure which one is best suited to me. I will list what i like about them pros/cons, however i have never owned a jap monster and not sure on the running costs. I am interested in a car which holds its value and is going to hold its own on the track as this is what i mainly want from the car however it still needs to be road legal . I have also never driven a rwd car so i dont know whether the Elise may be too much for my current driver skills which i am looking to improve upon, has any one driven a elise? If so what are they like to get use to both in wet/dry conditions? 
Elise S1
+ Track focused
+7-8k for a early S1 so not the cheapest car in the list.
+Reasonable insurance
+Reasonable MPG 30+ i believe.
-Build quality 
-Dodgy rattles and leaks - mind you the TT roadster has its fair share of annoying squeeks
-Cold ? Do they actually have a heater !
-Whats that rover engine like? 
Mods available?

Mitsibushi Evo 4
+Cheaper than the elise to buy initially
+ Fast accelertation-modding potential
+4wd grip with AYC
+Usable all year round hot/cold temperatures
- Never owned a jap import only car and dont know what the parts are like ?
- Drinks fuel like its a petroloholic
- Relaibility of a older car?

Subaru STi 
+Cheaper than elise again around 5-6 k for a classic 
+ Also fast, lots of modding potential 
+Many available
+4wd 
-Common car in standard guise. 
- Again there petroloholics

Skyline - limited to a GTS on insurance as i can't get insured on a GTR 32 so what are the RWD skyline like and is it more to drifting than a drivers car?

What do people think i should consider? Any information or advice on the models would be brilliant as i am not sure at all on what to get! Also depriciation info would be nice to know.

Thanks
Phil


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

Nissan Pulsar? Always got a soft spot for those in a kind of "baby Skyline" sort of way.

Stupidly tunable in a dinky little package.

Obvious downsides? They *may* be a bit neddy (but I don't think so) and they eat gearboxes if modified badly.

Also consider a good 200sx instead of a Skyline. (Nice drift car on Pistonheads recently... muhahaha)


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## coupe-sport (May 7, 2002)

Also consider a good 200sx

Had both an S13 and S14 200SX - great cars and very tuneable. Agree about the Pulsar GTI-R - Great fun and rare enough to be different.

If you want a good track / road car , how about a Supercharged MX5 ?


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## t5ttr (Dec 6, 2006)

Thought about the Pulsar but wondered how hard is it going to be to get a nice example as most are h-l reg . Mx-5 supercharged is that standard or modified? 
Cheers
Phil


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## coupe-sport (May 7, 2002)

Modified. You could buy an MX5 turbo which was a version sanctioned by Mazda UK and used a BBR turbo conversion (150 and 230BHP versions IIRC although the warranty didnt cover the 230 one...)

Lots of supercharger conversions for the MX5 - nice strong engine too.


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## Stu-Oxfordshire (May 7, 2002)

Having owned derivatives of 2 of the models you have on your radar, here's my 2 pennies-worth:



t5ttr said:


> Elise S1
> + Track focused
> +7-8k for a early S1 so not the cheapest car in the list.
> +Reasonable insurance
> ...


You mention you want a car which *"holds its value and is going to hold its own on the track"*
Well, you simply won't do better than an Elise. You can bag a great condition S1 111S or 135 for anything from 9K to 12K now. Running costs on track are a QUARTER of an Evo or other jap turbo (mainly due to less weight and subsequent benefits on consumables such as pads, discs, tyres, petrol. Oh and er....diffs and gear boxes. More about that later).
Arguably above all that, you'll learn how to drive properly. 
I had an Evo for a couple of years, thought I had a basic level of competence behind the wheel, until I drove a Lotus with a 3rd of the BHP and realised what I'd been missing. 
Mods? Well, you won't really need any. I have a video from Cadwell of a mate of mine in a std sport 160 keeping nailed to my rear bumper (even on the straights) when the Evo was pushing out 330bhp.....


> Mitsibushi Evo 4
> +Cheaper than the elise to buy initially
> + Fast accelertation-modding potential
> +4wd grip with AYC
> ...


Yes you've pretty much got it. An old model Evo 4 will probably have it's AYC diff on the way out as well as gearbox. AYC diffs cost 5K each unless you can find a recon'd one, which is very rare. 
You can bag a nice Evo V for 8-10K now but to get it track ready: big brakes, coilovers and seats, you'll need to spend 3K +. It's not worth it as you'll never get it back. Also the running costs on track and fast road are potty, compared to a Lotus/derivative.



> Subaru STi
> +Cheaper than elise again around 5-6 k for a classic
> + Also fast, lots of modding potential
> +Many available
> ...


Seee Evo 4



> Skyline - limited to a GTS on insurance as i can't get insured on a GTR 32 so what are the RWD skyline like and is it more to drifting than a drivers car?


Great car, even the GTS. It would flatter your driving though so you're better off with a 200.......

....which brings me onto my 2nd choice: 
A friend of mine owns x2 200's: one for road use and one for trackdays/drifitng. 
The drift car cost him 5K for the car and he has spent 7K on it. It has 400bhp, cage, drift diff, race seats, stiffer ARB's etc etc....my point is it will outhandle anything this side of an Exige or a noble and cost a grand total of 12K, 50% of [arts value he will get back come resale. Consumables and runnning costs are very hkgh but wow, it's a LOT of fun. 
If it were me, I'd try and stretch my budget to 12/13K and bag an S1 Sport 160. You won't need to do ANYTHING to it to get it trackworthy, bar changing pads and possibly upgrading the discs/bells (very reasonable on the S1).


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## t5ttr (Dec 6, 2006)

Thanks a lot for the detailed reply Stu - oxfordshire , just to let you know i have been out in a S1 elise 118 hp variant however it was modified to 135 Bhp with exhaust , throttle body upgrade and it also had koni dampers and a host of other track day mods. The car was a T 99 with 47k FLSH and was going for 10k sadly it was already sold. They still let me out though as it wasnt prepped for pickup . About the drive the elise is mental to say the least my first impressions of a rwd car are unbelievable!! On exiting the garage the tail was squirming(spelling?) around under acceleration and went like it was a rocket - bear in mind this was the dry too. Very quick car up to 90 or so even just in a short T/drive i could tell that the elise will suit my needs down to the ground. The small steering wheel just shouts out "You are driving a racing go kart!!!!" . I think i am persuaded into buying an S1 but i think i need to learn a bit more about them and what to look out for. The one i went to see had big panel gaps is this normal ? 
Next step is to find a evo in a grage to t/drive and a 200 SX as recommended here to see if it confirms my movement towards the elise.
I will keep you informed how my search goes on .
Thanks
Phil


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## damo (May 7, 2002)

t5ttr said:


> The one i went to see had big panel gaps is this normal ?


  Welcome to Lotus! Build quality is not the best. Lotus concentrate on chassis/handling rather than build and comfort. You just have to accept that it's going to be nowhere near a TT on these points - but it's also (as you have just found out!) leagues ahead of a TT in terms of fun.

I've got a S2 which I prefer the looks of over the S1 (you can get S2s from Â£11k these days). But to drive, both are amazing. Even though the base model is not that quick, with an exhaust, induction kit and cat replacement pipe it sounds and feels a lot quicker than it is. Not that a Elise is really about straight line speed, it's about corners and, short of a Caterham, little comes close.


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## MBK (Jan 25, 2004)

Phil,

I can confirm what Stu said about the Evo/Scooby thing. I previously owned an 04 Scooby STi Type 20 as a track/weekend fast road car for 18 months and all in all it cost about Â£1K a month to run, well over Â£1.20 per mile in real terms.

That included depreciation of Â£6k (thats after the first owner lost Â£10K in 6 months -eek!), Â£6K in mods and maintenance, road insurance of Â£1400 and the rest in fuel, trackday fees, tyres and insurance etc.

The bigger cost was constant concern over car security and the wrong sort of attention it attracted. I was lucky not to have to use the car everyday and tbh I wouldn't have wanted to, very noisey and uncomfortable for everyday use. So great to drive, not so good to own but if its an itch you have to scratch...

The Lotus sounds like a much better option to me, hindsight is a wonderful thing though eh!


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## drjam (Apr 7, 2006)

I bought an Elise (S2 though, rather than S1) back in October and the mrs has taken over the TTR, so I can compare both. (We're also selling an Impreza at the mo', though not a quick STi version).

The elise is fantastic to drive and a completely different experience to the TT - but then that's why I bought it: as a focused, roof-off car for B-road blasts. I also had the specific aim of improving my driving, learning about handling, doing some training days etc.. and in future getting it onto a track.

I'd say my driving skills are nothing more than ordinary, but (touches wood) I've had no issues yet with the Elise. (I think the S2 was a bit toned down handling-wise compared to the S1 though, I guess to attract people like me). In the dry you'd have to be driving like a loon to reach its limits I think. In the wet & cold I'm still being careful - not because it's ever felt anything other than stable and safe but because of all the warnings I've read elsewhere about tendency to spin and so on if you get it wrong! I guess it depends how much you plan to throw it around - I suspect my confidence will always run out way before the car's... Tyres also make a difference: the hardcore lotus owners often have much "slicker" tyres which can make the wet a hairier experience.

I also like the Elise because it's simple - which to me means less to go wrong (with the TT it's tended to be various electrically-focused issues that have ended up costing me).

So Elise - can't recommend it enough.

Subaru: great handling, pretty much bulletproof - but we found it very expensive when anything _does _need doing, even a basic service. Eats petrol too. And although very different to the TT in many ways, in the end its still more of a 'normal' car: heavy, two seats too many , not such a 'connected' drive etc..

So there's my (biased) opinion: if it's an additional car not a replacement, then don't go for something else that's a 'normal' car, go for something different. You won't regret it!


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## b3ves (May 6, 2002)

t5ttr said:


> The reason for these cars is that i think they would be exciting to drive however i am not sure which one is best suited to me. ............ I am interested in a car which holds its value and is going to hold its own on the track as this is what i mainly want from the car however it still needs to be road legal .


Elise every time. Relatively cheap to track and relatively cheap/simple to maintain, with great fuel economy and strong residuals. As for mods, there's everything from ally tat and fruity exhausts to 300bhp supercharged Honda VTEC and VAG 1.8T conversions. The K series engine can be a bit frail when it comes to head gasket failures (Â£800 to fix), but replacement engines are cheap if the worst comes to the worst.

I wouldn't bother with anything fancy like a Sport 160 as your first Elise. Go for a nice standard S1 (118bhp) and enjoy the torque. An induction kit and a sports exhaust with cat replacement pipe will take it to 135bhp for relatively little outlay if you want to start tuning it, with options taking it to 200+bhp. An alternative might be the 111S with the VVC engine, but bear in mind that the engine isn't as tuneable. Personally I wouldn't recommend doing much tuning work on the K, since frailty increases with output and the normally aspirated Honda 2.0 conversion makes a much better long term option.

There's a good website at http://www.elises.co.uk/ and a massive Forum membership at http://www.seloc.org/ if you're looking for more information and more informed opinion.

Good luck
Rob


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## Stu-Oxfordshire (May 7, 2002)

Some people even turbocharge their Loti.

<cough...cough....CHHHWUMMMM! > :roll:


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## t5ttr (Dec 6, 2006)

I think you will be right about the s1 118 hp it should be plenty fast enough and if 135 bhp is available from a light tune then i have near enough made my mind up. What tyres would you reccomend for the S1 and also standard suspension or aftermarket coilovers bearing in mind i would be driving it to the track as im not putting a towbar on the TT as im sure you can understand . What would you pay for a S1 118 and is FSH needed to maintain the resale value. Going to have a look on them websites mentioned earlier
Thanks
Phil


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## b3ves (May 6, 2002)

Toyo R888's with single way adjustable Nitron coilovers. I would also consider an uprated and adjustable front anti-roll bar. I can recommend Plans Motorsport http://www.plansmotorsport.com/ for supply and fit and Eliseparts http://www.eliseparts.com/shop/index.php for parts.

Spend around Â£9k - there are lots for sale on Pistonheads and also in SELOC classifieds. As long as servicing has been carried out by a Lotus specialist and at the right intervals, you'll be fine.


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## Rhod_TT (May 7, 2002)

What about a VX220T? Surely you'd be basically getting a Elise for less money but with more power.


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## b3ves (May 6, 2002)

Rhod_TT said:


> What about a VX220T? Surely you'd be basically getting a Elise for less money but with more power.


The turbo cars aren't in that price range and the na cars are slower and thirstier than a standard S1 Elise, despite having more power.


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## Rhod_TT (May 7, 2002)

b3ves said:


> Rhod_TT said:
> 
> 
> > What about a VX220T? Surely you'd be basically getting a Elise for less money but with more power.
> ...


After my sisters head gasket failure on her Kseries (mgtf130) I would be a bit wary of going near a Kseries engine. Her car was about 1.5years old but MG went titsup about the time it happened so warranty didn't mean anything. Is there anything to monitor on the Kseries Loti that can avoid HG failure?


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## b3ves (May 6, 2002)

http://wiki.seloc.org/index.php/Head_gasket_failure


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## damo (May 7, 2002)

Rhod_TT said:


> b3ves said:
> 
> 
> > Rhod_TT said:
> ...


My S2 has done 50k (37k by me) and no HGF. I'm not disputing it happens, it's just not quite as common as is made out (it's the old adage, people always mention on forums when something's gone wrong, but don't when all is well).

I never go over 3k rpm until the car's had 15mins to warm up.

I hope I haven't just jinxed myself :wink:


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## PAULTILFORD (Dec 6, 2006)

I have been down the Evo route(V) also TVR.I spent ages looking for a cheaper trackday based car but also one I could use everyday.
The answer - MK1 MX5 Import - cost me 5K four years ago & I have spent around Â£3000 on suspension, Supercharger & Nitrous.
I now have a very reliable 190bhp - 240bhp with Nitrous.
Its as much fun as anything I have owned


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