# Concours 08



## ronin (Sep 6, 2003)

EvenTT08 Concours:

For those of you thinking of entering this year i thought i would offer some assistance (im the Judge).

Concours, though a bit of fun does require a bit of work on your behalf, firstly an exceptionally clean car is required.
Dust/dirt anywhere means loss of points.
*** boxes, old polos and fading car park stickers do not gain points, only smiles !

The simplest way to look at it is the car should appear as it was from the factory in terms of cleanliness.

Last year i think a few contestants thought they would score more points with modifcations, concours is simply judged on the condition of your car for its age and steps that have been taken by YOU to keep the car pristine, stone chips are unavoidable but touch up paint is the remedy, kerbed wheels can be repaired and hoovers work wonders 

Every part of the car is marked, engine bay, inside the glove box, boot and wheel arches included.

Most of all, good luck !!


----------



## YELLOW_TT (Feb 25, 2004)

ronin said:


> The simplest way to look at it is the car should appear as it was from the factory in terms of cleanliness.


Sorry Gav there is no way I am going to let the monkeys sorry cleaners at the local dealers wipe there oily RAGS over my TT :wink: :lol:


----------



## davidg (Sep 14, 2002)

ronin said:


> EvenTT08 Concours:
> 
> For those of you thinking of entering this year i thought i would offer some assistance (im the Judge).
> 
> ...


Andy .
How many pies do you want tihs year ??

See you all soon


----------



## Hev (Feb 26, 2005)

davidg said:


> Andy .
> How many pies do you want tihs year ??
> 
> See you all soon


Dave, I thought you were going to ask for advice :lol: :roll:

Hev x


----------



## YELLOW_TT (Feb 25, 2004)

davidg said:


> ronin said:
> 
> 
> > Andy .
> ...


How many can you fit in


----------



## davidg (Sep 14, 2002)

YELLOW_TT said:


> davidg said:
> 
> 
> > ronin said:
> ...


Well if i can use your little hoover again an extra x2


----------



## Adam RRS (May 25, 2006)

I'm in this year - and i'm serious (this time  )

Done loads of prep work!!

Is it indoors does anyone know?!

Also Ronin, what kind of bribes do you take? Is it cash only?  :wink:


----------



## TTej (Sep 10, 2003)

Im not making Rockingham this year due to a friend wedding [smiley=bigcry.gif] but i would recommend anyone to enter this. Ive done it twice and last year managed to get second behind some yellow TTR :roll: (it wasnt that clean, but dont tell the owner). :wink:

Its a bit of fun and meeting people such as Andy and Dave and seeing their cars is a great experience, i can see Adam is already hooked. You wont get laughed at and no one is there to put anyone down, you get to show off you pride and joy to everyone.

Also its great to get involved in the show but one warning, this Conkors does go to some peoples head. One guy last year was interviewed for the Audi channel and the next day signed up with an Agent!  :lol:

Note to TTOC: I hope there will be runner up thropies this year as if you come 2nd or 3rd i think you deserve something. 

Enjoy


----------



## ronin (Sep 6, 2003)

No bribes, but a stainless steel white face Daytona wouldn't go amiss!


----------



## robokn (Feb 21, 2006)

ronin said:


> EvenTT08 Concours:
> Last year i think a few contestants thought they would score more points with modifcations, concours is simply judged on the condition of your car for its age and steps that have been taken by YOU to keep the car pristine, stone chips are unavoidable but touch up paint is the remedy, kerbed wheels can be repaired and hoovers work wonders


That sounds like it was aimed at me as I was the only one with a fully modified car OEM things dont really count In my opinion, my new TT is quite OEM BTW. If a car is in the modified section then perhaps a different form as they don't conform to normal regulations IIRC it wil lose martks as it is not the same as an ordinary car, no toll kit for example or paint that cannot be touched in.

Yes I made mistakes well the wife actually as she left a pot of jam under the seats.

But to be honest I cannot be arsed with it not now or ever again emptying my week ends worth of baggage onto the floor while someone looks into by spare wheel well not fun really. I would rather just park up and enjoy the day and not worry wether my door shuts have some dirt in them.

That may sound like sour grapes but I learned a valuable lesson don't bother and as for fun I don't think so as it is taken very seriously by some
:?


----------



## ronin (Sep 6, 2003)

robokn said:


> ronin said:
> 
> 
> > EvenTT08 Concours:
> ...


Few means more than one....

Concours is not show and shine.

Perhaps you are right and this sort of thing is not for you, but for those who compete reguraly its no real chore and when you put the effort in that the majority of competitors do, bags and luggage hide what they have spent hours cleaning. So they get removed to show what they have done, not too hide it.

I can give you details of comps that are more orientated to modified cars if you wish.

Your comments i hope do not put off those who may of considered entering for the first time as your writing is painting a picture that is not hopefully what others experience, and given the years it has been going and the amount of regular entrants it has it would appear to be enjoyed more than disliked.

We all think a lot of things, its what we choose to say that can make all the difference...

Have a good day at Eventt08.


----------



## robokn (Feb 21, 2006)

I thought about what I wrote so please try not to sound so condescending in your reply, as I am also aware of other shows that involve modified cars.

I wrote exactly how I felt about it sorry if that puts people off then they have minds of thier own so I am sure they can make there own mind up.

And as for no chore are you real I drive my cars every day for a fair amount of miles and to keep it n concours standard is no real chore is a laughable statement.

Sorry I won't carry on with this am I sure there are people out there who agree on both parties.


----------



## ronin (Sep 6, 2003)

robokn said:


> I thought about what I wrote so please try not to sound so condescending in your reply, as I am also aware of other shows that involve modified cars.
> 
> I wrote exactly how I felt about it sorry if that puts people off then they have minds of thier own so I am sure they can make there own mind up.
> 
> ...


Last years winner was a daily driver
I put the post up to help new contestants and purely that.

If you feel the need to put a grey slant on it, could you not do it on an independent post as your comments may be construed as off putting (note the use of the word may )


----------



## Adam RRS (May 25, 2006)

ronin said:


> Last years winner was a daily driver


Not true!

I didnt want to take my bags out the boot last year because I had 2 peoples worth of stuff + cash and my laptop etc. Didnt realise what concours was really about so this year i'm ready for you Ronin!

I'll be really surprised if I dont score high(ISH) as mine _really is_ a daily driver!

Please answer my question

*Is it indoors this year?!*


----------



## Jac-in-a-Box (Nov 9, 2002)

Concours might not be for everyone - fair enough.

I personally hope that one persons opinion doesn't put off those who fancy their chances at winning; so, get cleaning and get yourself entered. 
It's a good fun event and I'm just sorry that I'll not be there again this year.

For davidg...watch out for the Silver TT :wink:


----------



## trev (Aug 5, 2005)

Having second thoughts about this  thought it was all for a bit of fun.


----------



## YELLOW_TT (Feb 25, 2004)

davidg said:


> Well if i can use your little hoover again an extra x2


Its a deal


----------



## Love_iTT (Aug 18, 2002)

The Konkers can be fun. It can also feel like a chore at times too, but when you've finished tarting up every little nook and cranny you can possibly think off and then stand back and look at your pride and joy in all it's glory - you then know it's been worth it.

Getting first place? It would be good but if you don't, don't get mad - just get even. Vow to try just that bit more for next year. If you don't make it to first place then just ask Ronin where you dropped your points and he will gladly advise you, your car has got to be just that little bit special over and above the rest.

Look at your car in a critical way, as if it wasn't yours and you were judging - this soon picks up details you may have forgotten.

Whatever happens, do your best and enjoy the experience. 8)

Is there an 'Other Marques' konkers as well this year. :roll: :wink:

Graham


----------



## DXN (May 18, 2002)

Love_iTT said:


> Is there an 'Other Marques' konkers as well this year. :roll: :wink:
> 
> Graham


you know, I wondered about this too 8)


----------



## barton TT (Nov 13, 2004)

Good luck to all those taking part,think you are going to need it as saturday weather is not looking good , if you need a car washing the local poles are at ASDA is just around the corner from Rockingham circuit.


----------



## Adam RRS (May 25, 2006)

ok boss?! £6.... pliz...


----------



## Naresh (Nov 22, 2004)

I'm getting mine detailed here!


----------



## YELLOW_TT (Feb 25, 2004)

Adam TTR said:


> ok boss?! £6.... pliz...


Worked for me and Dave last year :wink: :lol:


----------



## YELLOW_TT (Feb 25, 2004)

trev said:


> Having second thoughts about this  thought it was all for a bit of fun.


Go for it is is as much fun as you make it   the best part is meeting lots of like minded people and having a good crack [smiley=gossip.gif]


----------



## davidg (Sep 14, 2002)

YELLOW_TT said:


> trev said:
> 
> 
> > Having second thoughts about this  thought it was all for a bit of fun.
> ...


----------



## CamV6 (Oct 26, 2003)

trev said:


> Having second thoughts about this  thought it was all for a bit of fun.


Mate, just come and join in, it is all a bit of fun, truly! Come on, its all good.

Last year was my 1st ever conkers tye thing i'd ever entered and it was brilliant. Hard work, yes, and I'm better prepared this year so i can spend less time cleaning and more time actuall at the show. I didnt notice anyone getting competetive like they do at say, dog shows

Rob, chill out mate! I didnt think it was aimed at you at all, I read it just that its about cleanliness, not 'cool'. Jeez, if it had been about cool i'd not have bothered entering last year against 'your CandyTT' ! I'm looking forward to seeing you again and I'm desperate to see your new motor. It looks sweeeet in the pics i've seen to date.


----------



## CamV6 (Oct 26, 2003)

TTej said:


> you get to show off you pride and joy to everyone.


 :lol: :lol:

Adam, this doesnt mean you get to run around with your chappie in your hand showing your knob to passing girls, ok?

TTej, shame you wont be there, would have been good to catch up. See you at the next Ace meet?


----------



## TTitan (May 11, 2007)

Adam

i saw on antoher thread that it was indoors -- for what that is worth. sounded official...


----------



## barton TT (Nov 13, 2004)

Congrats to Yellow for 1st in modded section and Davidg 1st un-modded well done to both of you.you both set such high standards.

Ian.


----------



## rabTT (Nov 14, 2006)

ronin said:


> EvenTT08 Concours:
> 
> For those of you thinking of entering this year i thought i would offer some assistance (im the Judge).
> 
> ...


Hi

This thread makes very interesting reading and it's always a hot topic that arises on the run-up to car shows. You make some good points there, *ronin* and very god advice. Having shown my old MkI Golf GTi with success in the 90s and doing judging, my interpretation of the more precise aspects of Classes are:

*Concours d'Elegance*: For cars that are factory with OEM mods/optional extras only that were available at the time of manufacture. The cars can be 'shinier' in respects of paintwork but chroming/powdercoating of parts will lose points. There have been occasions at some shows where participants have lost points due to resprays in a slightly different shade as supplied by a manufacturer, I kid you not! Historically, Concours is a very strict Class.
*Show'n'Shine*: (sometimes almalgamated with Modified). This is the Class for basically all others that don't fall into the category above. It can (in our instance) be further divided into Coupe and Roadster, dependant on the number of entrants. Can be a difficult Class to judge as where is the benchmark .. amount of mods? shine? As a guide, Show'n'Shine covers standard, slightly modded and daily drivers - all gaining marks respectively. Modified tends to be for more heavily modded examples eg bodykits, big turbos, striped/reupholstered, etc.
*Other Marques*: A popular Class as it adds a nice touch to any show to have a little variety .. 

Problems arise for organisers as this then requires more judges and sponsors (for trophies, etc) - judges can sometimes be recruited from entrants where they are briefed and used to judge other Classes and an average or mean score is taken from a number of judges. Sponsors are sponsors, and blagging can be done for the particular Classes ie VAGTech, Backdraught, etc for Modified, Meguiars, Swissol, Autoglym (  ) for Show'n'Shine, Audi dealerships for Audi clothing/paraphernalia for Other Marques.

Then finally, *Best in Show* as chosen/voted for, by the excitied show masses .. 

Comments .. :roll:


----------



## robokn (Feb 21, 2006)

I dont honestly think there is enough people intrested to make it worth while, as there seemed 
just enough to fill modded / Unmodded. If for next year there was a format as stated above them perhaps
more people would be interested. Then the cars could be judged just be being there ala Ace Cafe / Poole.


----------



## Adam RRS (May 25, 2006)

I think next year we'll just have Show n Shine.... It'll be the taking part that counts and we'll let the owners decide whos got the best car.

What do you think guys? Less formal more fun, right?


----------



## robokn (Feb 21, 2006)

You know me feelings adam and it may make for another winner andy is running out of Sig Block space


----------



## Adam RRS (May 25, 2006)

I think the world of Andy, but lets face it, when it comes to concours he's unbeatable.

Show and Shine is another story..... and instead of having 1 judge we'll have a public vote


----------



## Wallsendmag (Feb 12, 2004)

Adam TTR said:


> I think the world of Andy, but lets face it, when it comes to concours he's unbeatable.
> 
> Show and Shine is another story..... and instead of having 1 judge we'll have a public vote


Just think if DaveG can do that to a nine year old car think about his new TTs


----------



## rabTT (Nov 14, 2006)

great idea Adam as public votes are great fun albeit there's sometimes a claim of rigging :lol: 
A judging panel however, could also be selected from TTOC members on the day of the show. They're given some simple guidance notes along with their scoring sheets to ensure a general high standard. Would certainly encourage others who may be considering entering in future ..


----------



## Adam RRS (May 25, 2006)

rabvtec said:


> great idea Adam as public votes are great fun albeit there's sometimes a claim of rigging :lol:
> A judging panel however, could also be selected from TTOC members on the day of the show. They're given some simple guidance notes along with their scoring sheets to ensure a general high standard. Would certainly encourage others who may be considering entering in future ..


Ok I take that on board....


----------



## ronin (Sep 6, 2003)

Well done to all those who took part, was a very hard call - all winners in terms of effort.

Adam came so far this year, honestly was a dramatic transformation.

Will be interesting to see if it goes the show and shine route, always thought thats more the max power brigade, concours if for the more discerning.


----------



## Adam RRS (May 25, 2006)

Thanks for your nice comments, last year was a total embarrasment! I had to be on form this year and show you what my car CAN be like!

6/10 for my paintwork tho was a shock! Is there anything I can do to improve it that wont cost me a full respray? I want at least 8!!

Its a hard call to make for next year... I dont think show n shine is maxpower I think its more about having your car on show without the close detailed inspection.


----------



## ronin (Sep 6, 2003)

Adam TTR said:


> Thanks for your nice comments, last year was a total embarrasment! I had to be on form this year and show you what my car CAN be like!
> 
> 6/10 for my paintwork tho was a shock! Is there anything I can do to improve it that wont cost me a full respray? I want at least 8!!
> 
> Its a hard call to make for next year... I dont think show n shine is maxpower I think its more about having your car on show without the close detailed inspection.


Would use a portacable on your paint, i had a good look at your surface scratches and next to none had gone past the top coat. A good PC session with a good wax will transform them, black is never going to be a scratches friend though - where in the country are you?


----------



## Adam RRS (May 25, 2006)

Cam recently portercabled my car and we got out whatever we could using Megs 83 followed my chemical guys sealant then Wet mirror finish polish on top.... but like you say, black shows up EVERYTHING! Yellows much more concealable 

I'm in Watford area, herts


----------



## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

Adam TTR said:


> I think next year we'll just have Show n Shine.... It'll be the taking part that counts and we'll let the owners decide whos got the best car.
> 
> What do you think guys? Less formal more fun, right?


Adam I think there is potentially room for both. A proper upmarket Concours d'Elegance for the purists and a Show and Shine for the rest.

The Mk1 is only ever gonna get scarcer and I would imagine there are a lot of owners out there who'd want to keep their cars in tip top original condition and be recognised for their art. The Mk2 I know will also have owners who want to keep the car as it came out of the factory and of course they could enter too.

But when you look at modified cars beauty is only in the eye of the beholder. There is no standard to adhere to and a car like Yan's is a completely different approach to say Steve Caney's or Sam's (G12MOX's).

How about putting up a poll to gauge opinion?

Cheers bud

Rich


----------



## Adam RRS (May 25, 2006)

I will mate but near the time!

Only 363 days to go! cant wait! haha


----------



## robokn (Feb 21, 2006)

ronin said:


> Will be interesting to see if it goes the show and shine route, always thought thats more the max power brigade, concours if for the more discerning.


A rather elitest view as I wouldn't call most of the cars at either ED38 or Gti Max Power cars, I think it is the way ahead as it is dying on it's feet, Six cars and one new face with the usual suspects winning, nothing against dave or andy their cars are very clean indeed and you can see and appreciate the work that has gone in there


----------



## Adam RRS (May 25, 2006)

Might be a better idea for show n shine to have a panel of judges (people renowned for having nice cars) rather than 1 judge.... at the end they all get together and whoever scores highest wins a proper prize with runner up prizes too?

All entrants should also receive something for their efforts.... We may need sponsorship?


----------



## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

Adam TTR said:


> We may need sponsorship?


I've already spoken to an interested party about the possibility of sponsorship in many different guises and it's a definite maybe... 

Cheers

Rich


----------



## rabTT (Nov 14, 2006)

I'm sure many forumers would agree that there were probably some really fine examples in the car park on Sunday (if the posted pics are anything to go by) so why not entered in the show? Most likely explanation is that they probably don't feel that their car is up to the standard currently displayed, hence the suggestion of a Show'n'Shine where the 'rules' may not be so strict. This would hopefully attract more members to enter. As Adam rightly points out - it's all for the fun of it and to admire fine examples of our beloved TTs


----------



## ronin (Sep 6, 2003)

robokn said:


> ronin said:
> 
> 
> > Will be interesting to see if it goes the show and shine route, always thought thats more the max power brigade, concours if for the more discerning.
> ...


Your going to see it your way, and ill see it mine, six cars, right, but perhaps not helped in the run up to it by forum comments.

It could be the concours was for the TT owners of old, and the new breed is not that way inclined.

Tailor made to off the shelf...


----------



## TTej (Sep 10, 2003)

Were they not any runner up prises???

I brought this up last year as i thought runner up should get something (not just i was runner up lol) .

In my eyes Andy and Dave are in a different class, and its only fair that they win the top honours but if you had a second and prehaps third (if the budget can stretch) it gives other people a chance to win something. After all if it is the taking part that counts, you need to make second and third place count for something or youll end up with people getting nothing for their efforts and not bothering.


----------



## Adam RRS (May 25, 2006)

I got a cheapy keyring.... Great!

A whole year of preparation....


----------



## robokn (Feb 21, 2006)

Six cars same amount last year with no comments see a trend, I think mt views are actually being echoed by more than one person, Ronin perhaps you'll have nothing to do next year and you can enjoy the max power show from new members with new cars, as you can see the older members don't really enter either, Dave G, Andy aside


----------



## Love_iTT (Aug 18, 2002)

I don't really get this to be honest. OK, set up a different class like a Show and Shine if you like but do you really think that's going to change anything? It's a bitter pill to swallow but if your TT is not up to the standard of say Andy then you still aint going to win - sorry.

What appears to be happening is you want to change the rules (lowering the standard) by starting a new catagory (Show and Shine) so that you can win something. Why not raise your existing standard that little bit more instead? If you feel that you can't for whatever reason then you know what the outcome will be so don't enter.

Like many people have said above, I saw many TT's in the car park on Sunday that could have easily entered the Concours but didn't and I can put money on the reason why and that's simply because of lack of confidence by the owner or he/she can't be bothered. As those who entered know, it's not easy nor should it be - the standard is set high for a reason.

My last concours I entered before selling my TT gave me one point behind Andy in the modified section and I came second - one bloody point. I was furious, not with anyone except myself for forgetting to clean some dirt from the bottom corner of the drivers door jam (I did the passenger side but then promptly forgot the drivers side). And that is really what the Concours is all about - attention to detail. But having said that, I enjoyed every minute of the preparation even though I thought many times was it worth it - of course it was. :wink:

I have always thought that there should be a Best of Show at the Nationals running alongside the Concours, this would be voted for by *ALL* the people coming through the gate and for *ANY* of the cars attending, car park included. There were some absolutely stunning TT's in the car park and I would have been hard pressed to pick on a best of show if it had been organised although there was a silver MkI coupe which did stand out from the crowd for me although this one did have a rear spoiler though. :roll:

Graham


----------



## robokn (Feb 21, 2006)

Why is it lowering the standard it is just offering an alternative to the Concours which 
is not everybody's bag


----------



## Love_iTT (Aug 18, 2002)

robokn said:


> Why is it lowering the standard it is just offering an alternative to the Concours which
> is not everybody's bag


Rightly or wrongly (probably the latter) it's an assumption on my behalf from what has been said previously. Thats just the way it came over to me.

As there is now a modified secion for the Concours then I can't see why a Show and Shine needs to be introduced, your (ex) stunning TTR in my opinion would have been a great contender for the modified section, I didn't go to last years event so I can't comment on the reasons why it didn't win but judging by your comments you were not a happy bunny with the results, understandable when all of us who participate in the Concours spend a hell of a long time and resources doing our best to get our sweaty hands on that coveted trophy only in the end to be thwarted not by Andy or whoever but by ourselves for not being good enough. To me, it's as simple as that.

It goes back to my old school reports - "Must try harder". :wink:

Graham


----------



## Jac-in-a-Box (Nov 9, 2002)

A fun event turning a little sour? I think so.

Call it what you will...but Concours it isn't. 
I'm afraid none of the cars I've seen entered in previous years, unless absolutely standard, would qualify. See Rabvtecs expanation of the definitions.
That's a comment that *doesn't* take anything away from the sheer effort, hard work and bloody minded determindness to get the detail right of those who enter.

I too have seen some lovely examples of the TT sitting in the parking area that would provide worthy competition to the some of the regulars and often wondered why their owners haven't entered - perhaps as Graham has said it's simply a lack of confidence? 
Some of the comments made before the '08 event wouldn't have helped either...someone I know who entered this year very nearly didn't because he percieved the event to have a little more serious than I had made it out to be. Fortunately Andys comment on here persuaded him to go for it. Andy even helped him out at the event with advice and offers of equipment. Thanks Andy, a great display of what the competition is all about 

Seems the genuine and honest rivalry and cammeraderie still exists but sadly a few sour grapes are creeping in.

"Best of Show" would be a more appropiate term for the event...how it's worked, marked, judged and by who needs to be sorted out. A few ideas have been mooted and cold be worthy of a closer look.
However, changing the name doesn't AND shouldn't mean a drop in standards. Do away with the modified/unmodified section if that's still used (even something as simple as set of non OE pads - bright green pads peeking out from the calipers renders the car as non-standard) I've yet to see a "unmodified" car in the TT Concours.

I can't rember if a weighting system for points is used - age and mileage would attract extra points, distance travelled to the event - more miles extra points, the competitor who travels a couple of miles to the event is at an advantage to someone who travels from the Northern reaches of Scotland...worth considering?

Perhaps the term "elitist" is more appropiate to Concours...if you want to see what "proper" Concours is like have a visit to something like the Bentley Owners Club Concours event. That'll open your eyes.
I've seen some truly fabulous and expensively ground up restored Flying B's lose points because the underseal was of the incorrect texture compared to that of the factory applied gloop.
They're all put on a level playing field at the start too...some cars are driven to the event some come in covered trailors. They're all given a route map which involves a drive round the country, muddy lanes etc and then given a set period to prepare their cars before judging - no work to be carried out once judging starts; last one to be judged gets no advantage!

Anyway, IMO, Andy's (yellowTT) car sets the benchmark for all to follow. Congratulations fella  
Don't let the fun leave the event whatever it's to be called and lets see a few more new entrants next year.

Dave


----------



## davidg (Sep 14, 2002)

Jac-in-a-Box said:


> I've yet to see a "unmodified" car in the TT Concours.
> 
> Dave


Just wait until next year then !!!!! :wink:

Mods.
Mine has milltek  , eibachs [due to broken standard ones ]no green stuff pads :roll: [gone oem looking mintex] , other bits chip etc but you cant see it ...

As far as i know Chris [blue 3.2 ] who entered was totally unmodded ?


----------



## Jac-in-a-Box (Nov 9, 2002)

davidg said:


> As far as i know Chris [blue 3.2 ] who entered was totally unmodded ?


Ah, but I said "I've *yet *to see an unmodified TT..." I wasn't there this year to see it! :wink: 

Dave


----------



## Jac-in-a-Box (Nov 9, 2002)

Adam TTR said:


> I got a cheapy keyring.... Great!
> 
> A whole year of preparation....


So, what do you think should have been given Adam?

Sad to say, that your comment above doesn't quite stack up with your earlier comments:



Adam TTR said:


> think next year we'll just have Show n Shine.... *It'll be the taking part that counts*...


I'm sure the majority of the entrants don't do it for what they can walk away with at the end of the day, do they? I'd have thought the kudos of winning the top slot, or even a position - 2nd ,3rd, whatever, would be sufficient - perhaps I'm wrong :wink:

Dave


----------



## robokn (Feb 21, 2006)

No your not wrong Dave at all, It's just my feeling that it could attract more people it was judged / marked / labeled differently appealing more to the masses with the emphasis not being on the sheer cleanliness of your car, i.e. is your toolkit all there, for example my old car didn't have a spare wheel as it had an air tank in it's place so I would have lost points, even though it was in the modified section.

I have seen proper Concours D elegance at Goodwood and TBH didn't really float my boat preferred to look at the cars that were very clean just not obsessively manicured.

As for arriving on a trailer I hate trailer queens with a passion if you want an ornament look elsewhere cars are there to be driven not just polished.

This is what got my back up as I feel that Ronin comments was pointed squarely at me.

Last year i think a few contestants thought they would score more points with modifcations, concours is simply judged on the condition of your car for its age and steps that have been taken by YOU to keep the car pristine, stone chips are unavoidable but touch up paint is the remedy, kerbed wheels can be repaired and hoovers work wonders


----------



## rabTT (Nov 14, 2006)

Once again guys, some very salient points mentioned and worth considering. *Love_iTT*, sorry mate, but saying if your car ain't up to the standard of Andy's then don't bother entering seems a bit harsh, no? Maybe I'm reading too much into your statement, so apologies if I am, but as *TTej* has said, it's all about the enjoyment and fun factor of owning such a vehice - let's try and involve as many members as possible and ENCOURAGE them to enter and show off their pride'n'joy not scare them off - such opinions/views will only attract comments such as, "elitest". OK, *YellowTT, robokn and davidg, etc* have historically set an extremely high benchmark and cars in that condition should be awarded accordingly but not to the *exclusion* of others!

Because there is obvious evidence of a range within a range of high standards of cars entering, considering a more defined set of Classes in NOT a drop in standards - standards will remain high but commensurate with the criteria as laid down by the Class a member chooses to enter their car in. This way, many more will be attracted to showing their cars and all show goers reap the benefit of looking at a larger selection of members' cars.


----------



## robokn (Feb 21, 2006)

Agreed


----------



## Adam RRS (May 25, 2006)

Jac-in-a-Box said:


> Adam TTR said:
> 
> 
> > I got a cheapy keyring.... Great!
> ...


Well at other events I go to the runners up get a set of car cleaning stuff (be it megs or auto glym orn whatever) or a small token be it runner up trophes, plaques, umbrellas, goblets etc. With correct sponsorship and planning, everyone who takes part should be given something in the end.

If you come 2nd 3rd - what do you actually get to say that?!? NOTHING? Great! That was worth it! Why have people walking away with ill feeling being told to try harder next time? Everyone has worked hard and should be recognised for it.

I'm the organiser for next year so ultimately whatever you guys think will be taken on board but at the end of the day i'm gonna make sure that theres recognition for peoples hard work and good effort.


----------



## CamV6 (Oct 26, 2003)

I agree that more incentive has to be given for people to enter. I mean, at an event of that size, 10 or so cars on conkers is crap.

And yes, it was good that everyone was given one of davidGs new small TT keyrings. Small gesture, but worthy of a small comp with 2 guys who were nailed on winners every year! Ironically I came 3rd in my 1st ever conkers last year and got nowt but there was a good end of show get together and fuss made of it all, this year I came 4th, got a keyring, in a very ad-hoc "lets finish up and f*ck off" type way! And before anyone gets upset, I dont begrudge andy & dave it at all, these guys are unbeatable!

One thing I would say, and its not a pointed comment, is that there has to be some levelling element because to have daily drivers up against cars that are garaged a lot and not used 1/2 as much is a bit uneven IMHO. At the same time, it all needs to remain a bit of fun. Its all really about showing off after all. One enters hoping to do well but in all honesty it shouldnt be necessarily about what you get for coming where other than a little recognition maybe. As I said when prepping on Sunday, anyone who actually cares out that much about where they come in the event ought not to be allowed to enter in the 1st place!

Having said that, what really disappointed me was (a) a lack of facilities for washing i.e. no hosepipes, and (b) lack of numbers. I think a lot more awareness has to be the key. I mean, we've had a 'show & shine' section since the relaunch, but i dont recall seeing much info or encouragement to join in conkers there at all. All I remember was a silly spat about it on the events section which did no-one's reputation any good at all and i'm sure put a few folk off. Shame really.

I have to say that this years experience wasnt as much fun for me as last year (not result related comment) to the point that I think I'd really prefer to have a track day next year for a real 'enthusiasts' experience.


----------



## Love_iTT (Aug 18, 2002)

rabvtec said:


> *Love_iTT*, sorry mate, but saying if your car ain't up to the standard of Andy's then don't bother entering seems a bit harsh, no? Maybe I'm reading too much into your statement


I don't think you were reading into it too much but maybe I could have put it better. Obviously I didn't mean that in the literal sense otherwise there would not be too many people entering. Let me put it this way. When I entered I would have the likes of Andy and Dave in the back of my mind as a yardstick, I never beat them but I always thought that I might have stood a chance and that is what spurred me on. If however I thought that realistically that there was no way that I could have ever beaten them then I honestly don't think I would have entered. Yes I may have cleaned and polished the TT better than normal but it would have been for my own benefit and enjoyment rather than entering the Concours. I hope that all makes sense.



Adam TTR said:


> Well at other events I go to the runners up get a set of car cleaning stuff (be it megs or auto glym orn whatever) or a small token be it runner up trophes, plaques, umbrellas, goblets etc. With correct sponsorship and planning, everyone who takes part should be given something in the end.
> 
> If you come 2nd 3rd - what do you actually get to say that?!? NOTHING? Great! That was worth it! Why have people walking away with ill feeling being told to try harder next time? Everyone has worked hard and should be recognised for it.
> 
> I'm the organiser for next year so ultimately whatever you guys think will be taken on board but at the end of the day i'm gonna make sure that theres recognition for peoples hard work and good effort.


Agree with that 100%. Lets face it, It is disapointing not to win and I think a certificate of merit or something to show for the commitment and hard work that goes into preparing for a concours event is at least some form of recognition. To walk away with nothing is a real downer and to be honest, doesn't do any good for inspiration.

Adam, in my opinion for what it's worth, is that as you are organising next years event then have three sections; Concours, Show and Shine and a Best of Show. That should satisfy everyones tastes and ability, I don't think you will have any problems filling those areas and you will get a good cross section of the cars we so often see in the sig pics of this forum - you never know, done correctly, you may even have to turn some people away because of over subscription. :wink:

Graham


----------



## Adam RRS (May 25, 2006)

Excuse me being naieve.... but...

Whats the difference between Show N Shine and Best of Show?


----------



## Love_iTT (Aug 18, 2002)

A show and shine to me is a dedicated area or selection of vehicles similar to the existing Concours event but are judged on different aspects - chrome, customized retrims, special effect paint etc, quite different from Concours.

Best of show is as I have said before and which I tend to favour and that is where everyone passing through the gates is allowed to vote on any particular car at the event (even if it's just parked in the car park) that he or she feels is the car that stands out from the crowd in some form - in other words, the Best of Show.

Graham


----------



## Love_iTT (Aug 18, 2002)

Forgot to say that Show and Shine would be judged by a small panel of judges rather than Best of Show would be judged by everyone.

Graham


----------



## robokn (Feb 21, 2006)

That Graham seems like a plan and I think would attract alot more people which is always good


----------



## TTej (Sep 10, 2003)

Adam TTR said:


> Excuse me being naieve.... but...
> 
> Whats the difference between Show N Shine and Best of Show?


Adam you know the difference youve been to enough shows. Best of show is what i started doing for the Ace Cafe, everyone votes and the votes are counted.

Show and shine, Judge or panel look at all cars and mods add points

Concours , judge or panel look at all car and mods loss points as it should be like factory.


----------



## Love_iTT (Aug 18, 2002)

TTej said:


> Adam TTR said:
> 
> 
> > Excuse me being naieve.... but...
> ...


It's OK mate, he's trying to wind me up for some reason but I don't know why though. :? The thing is I'm old enough and wise enough not to bite hence the polite explaination. :wink:

Graham


----------



## CamV6 (Oct 26, 2003)

Hmm, trouble is, Concourse and Show & Shine pretty much rules out the likes of me. I'm not OEM by a long way, but I'm a long way short of serious re-trimming/chroming etc etc. I just have a car with a few modifications and want to keep it like that.

So I'd not be able to enter Concourse, and I'd look like a poor relative in a Show & Shine.

I think a lot of potential entrants fall between these two definitions and again we are back to limiting numbers.

Arent we better off with Modified & Unmodified , where the modified section doesnt loose marks for daft things like not having tools in the spare whell well because the space is used for something else as happened Robokn in 2007?


----------



## YELLOW_TT (Feb 25, 2004)

What about a concourse as we have it now with a standard and modded class judged by a judge but also show & shine judged as it is at GTI inters were every one who enters the show and shine votes for there top 3 cars then a best of show voted for by every one who attends the show and covering all the TTs that turn up :idea:


----------



## Hark (Aug 23, 2007)

lol

Getting to a point where there will be more categories than cars.  

I think its a shame that some people felt deflated and didn't recieve anything after the event. This was my 1st National Meet and I really enjoyed it. Really enjoyed looking over the cars and it would be great to see more people join.

Lots of good ideas here, alot down to personal preference. Like the idea of best of show like Ace Cafe and some type of concours. I think some people would be put off by OTT seriousness of concours as checking if things are utterly OEM doesn't float everyones boat, mine included. Each to their own but maybe a new category needs creating.


----------



## Adam RRS (May 25, 2006)

Love_iTT said:


> It's OK mate, he's trying to wind me up for some reason but I don't know why though. :? The thing is I'm old enough and wise enough not to bite hence the polite explaination. :wink:
> 
> Graham


No Graham, I'm not winding you up!

Just coz I go to shows Tej that doesnt mean i'm paying attention to all that! Most of the time I leave before then end anyway! Last year I didnt even know what concours was! Hence turning up to Donnington with a car thats had a basic clean and polish!

Thats why this year I HAD to prove myself.

Anyway, back on topic.... it sounds to me like Best Of Show is the answer but I dont think its a good idea to vote literally any car at such a huge event. IMO a car should be entered in and judged by the public. This will also prevent people voting for their own car that hasnt been washed for a month! If enough people join the best of show catagory we can then offer up concours (i.e. full and proper judging) within the competition allowing them to be 'properly judged'. See how much interest it gets from those people?! Therefore, effectivly, you can enter 2 competitions at once and chose what sort of judging you want.

Thoughts?


----------



## robokn (Feb 21, 2006)

I think there is the reasonning for both but who would actually enter the Conkers Andy, Dave and maybe one other with a lot of people happy to enter "best of show" which IMHO is the way to go aloy of cars all very clean to be judged by the Hoi Palloi


----------



## rabTT (Nov 14, 2006)

CamV6 said:


> Hmm, trouble is, Concourse and Show & Shine pretty much rules out the likes of me. I'm not OEM by a long way, but I'm a long way short of serious re-trimming/chroming etc etc. I just have a car with a few modifications and want to keep it like that.
> 
> So I'd not be able to enter Concourse, and I'd look like a poor relative in a Show & Shine.
> 
> ...


Mate, you're missing the poit entirely. One doesn't win a Show'n'Shine purely on the amount of mods and the size of them .. one wins on the merits of a whole raft of areas. Mods should be fitted and finished well and the rest of the car has to be of a high standard also. From what I know of yours, it could easily fit into the Show'n'Shine category without a doubt!

I'd be more than happy to offer Adam guidance/advice if he so wishes it, on drawing up the criteria and (just as importantly) entrants' guidance notes to assist potential entrants for next year in preparing their car and into what Class they should enter it ..


----------



## mctavish (Oct 26, 2005)

First of all may I congradulate Andy and Dave for last Sunday they both as always set the standard for the day. Dave is quite right in saying that my V6 Kingfisher Blue car is unmodified with the only additions being audi mudflaps, a coathanger and matching leather armrest none of which alter the performance and handling of the car and can be removed without rendering the car undriveable. 
In my opinion (and I except it is not everybodies) Audi got it about right with the mark 1 especially the V6 manual version and I take great pleasure in keeping the car original and unmolested. I have always been very open about my car and the fact it is not driven everyday and covers approx. 1500 miles per annum. Infact the milage recorded on Sunday was 3441 miles which must make it the lowest milage mark 1 out there unless anybody knows different?
For the second year running I decided to enter the concourse event and like the other entrants spent many hours preparing the car in the normal way for the big day.
Judging this year was by Gavin again who I found to be both rude and sacastic on the day making me feel that I shouldn't have entered this event because of the low milage and usage of the car. No constructive comments or suggestions were uttered whilst judging my car and I felt completly deflated wondering why I had bothered to enter this event in the first place?
To make matters worse when the results were given he was no where to be seen and I was announced as being in sixth place (last) which I was somewhat bemused about as I was under the impression that there were two classes modified and unmodified? I was handed my score sheet which showed that all my original scores had been crossed out and substituted with 7's with a note scrawled across the top stating that I had been penalised because of the low usage/milage of my car.
Why couldn't Gavin have had the decency to tell me this during the course of the day rather than say nothing and let me find out at the end of the day? Please don't get me wrong I am not a bad loser but I do object to being humilated in this way and I think the concourse event this year was handled very poorly not only by Gavin but also the club. A number of people have asked for runner up prizes to acknowledge the hard work and effort by all concerned and a token after thought in presenting all participants with a token TT key ring was poor.
I am clearly not the only one annoyed and disapppointed with this years event judging by the comments on this post and certainly the experience I have encountered does not promote this event or encourage other people to take part which after all as a club is what we should be promoting.
So can I ask that next years event is outlined properly so that everybody knows whether it is a concourse /show and shine event from the outset, who is eligable to enter and the rules please so you don't leave people under the impression that they have been made up as you go along?

Chris 
(Mctavish)

TTOC member 182


----------



## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

Hear, hear.

Cheers

rich


----------



## Adam RRS (May 25, 2006)

Chris,

While I empathise with you feeling deflated during your inspection, I can also understand why you were penalised. Please dont take this the wrong way....

Entering a car into concours thats done 3000 miles (less miles than some Audi demo cars) in 2 years is going to be considered an unfair advantage over others who are regular drivers. I came 3rd - my car is a 2000 model and i've done 65000(ish) miles. As far as i'm aware we were judged on the cars condition for mileage, age and amount of use. The fact that your car is barely used and last years miles were recorded for this years repeat judging all goes against you.

I'm not saying you shouldnt have entered! Your car is a truely immaculate example and imo leads the way as to what condition a concours car should be. I admit, Gavin can be abrupt, he doesnt mince his words and says it how it is... I think thats just his character!

Next years show cars will be entered into different catagories for sure so dont let it get you down as I plan to make this fairer for others!


----------



## rabTT (Nov 14, 2006)

Hear Hear, *mctavish*! It generally isn't easy to speak up in any forum about negative aspects and I'm sure you took no pleasure in having to do so in such terms .. however, you're a member and have your right to your say and your points MUST be considered by the Committee for future events, even if they are eventually discounted. Yours was not the only score sheet marked strangely ..

Adam, please don't take this the wrong way and I'm not questioning your experience in judging but if the cars were judged on *the cars condition for mileage, age and amount of use* then it's not Concours! OK, what's in a word? Well, plenty I guess especially when one wants to try and encourage members to take part. In fact, Chris's car fits the Concours bill perfectly! If Concours is the only Class displayed, then rightly "amount of use" has a _bearing_ on that section on the score sheet and nothing more. Yes of course a car should not win on low mileage alone or Chris would just roll his out for every show (this is not a tip, Chris :wink: :lol: ) hence the reason for numerous other section a car is scored on.

Also, although I'm not here to critisise or defend any person's behaviour, but to say that the judge was the way he was because that's just his character is wrong, wrong, wrong! Judging, though serious, is an important role and a person in such a positin should, when judging, ask the owner questions AND be there, if necessary, to point out areas where they have done well, or indeed, may wish to improve - with suggestions on how they may achieve these. All this should be done without giving away anything regarding the the score given by their body language or the passing of comments. A judge should also, only be accompanied by the owner and no 'mates' passing comments or gestures like thumbs up .. or down for that matter!


----------



## CamV6 (Oct 26, 2003)

rabvtec said:


> Mate, you're missing the poit entirely. One doesn't win a Show'n'Shine purely on the amount of mods and the size of them .. one wins on the merits of a whole raft of areas. Mods should be fitted and finished well and the rest of the car has to be of a high standard also. From what I know of yours, it could easily fit into the Show'n'Shine category without a doubt!


Aah, ok, thanks I didnt realise that. Useful info.

I must say I found Gavin to be perfectly polite and kind to me, and I gladly accepted the advice he gave me on areas to improve on, and he was very very careful to ensure I didnt feel criticised, even thogh I made it clear that all/any comments he had would be accepted constructively, so I'm saddened and surprised that you had a bad experience with him Chris. i found him to be polite and trying to be helpful with me last year also. Maybe just a bit of a clash of personalities. maybe also he's used to getting a hard time off folk (kinda like a referee in football!) when all he's doing is trying to judge a competition, hence perhaps he might be a little touchy about being queried and having some reluctance to be available for comment on final scores. I dont know, I'm just guessing cos given my experiences of him, I'm surprised to hear what you say (not that i'm doubting your comments at all)


----------

