# TT a bad handling car? True? why?



## TiTi (Mar 5, 2007)

Ive heard a lot about the TT having serious handling defects, is this true? What part of the car causes this, the general aerodynamics? If so, is that why they decided to put little wings on the back of the TT's, does that solve the problem?


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## a13xbb (Jan 27, 2007)

think thats why they put the spoiler on apparently!


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## kent_keith (Mar 5, 2007)

it does understeer in my opinion and have been told itâ€™s built in as a safety feature, lots of people on here mod their cars and reduce this.


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## scott-tt225 (Jul 9, 2006)

When the tt was released, a couple were crashed by the press as they can drive.

Audi themselves and dumbed down the suspension and turned up the ESP.

The TT can now be driven by anybody including miss daisy.

However a couple of mods and the TT handles good!

Turning ESP off is so much better too


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## Rhod_TT (May 7, 2002)

The TT doesn't (didn't) handle that bad. Check this video: http://videos.streetfire.net/category/A ... 1b828d.htm


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## CH_Peter (May 16, 2002)

The steering is lacking in feedback. The car understeers at the first sign of any enthusiastic driving.

There are a couple of relatively simple and cheap mods that make the car far more neutral and improve the feel. Golf R32 ant-roll bars (aka R32 ARBs) will change the feel of the car dramatically. Of course, if you overcook things with these on, you'll go from nicely neutral to people pate in the blink of an eye. The R32 ARBs are about Â£300 or something.

An uprated Haldex performance controller would drive more power to the rear wheels proactively upon hard acceleration. The standard unit keep 90%+ of the power to the front wheels until they start to lose grip, at which point power is transferred to the rear. This would change the car to use its quattro to better effect.

The two combined make for an exceptional upgrade and even a complete novice driver would notice the improvement. Rumour has it that it's even effective on cars with a whopping great front heavy crazy unbalanced V6 lump at the front of the car.


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## leggystt (Mar 22, 2007)

TT handle badly??!! You shold try an RX7, 300BHP, rear wheel drive, jap rubber tyres...in the wet :wink:


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## p1tse (Sep 20, 2004)

many people are trying to improve this.

from:
springs
coilovers
arbs

the new one on the line are defcon


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## Leg (Jan 11, 2006)

Indeedy doodly...spent a relatively large pile of cash so that in about 10 minutes I can drive home from work grinning like a perv in a porn shop at every corner and junction.

Just needs defcon and a supercharger. :twisted: Â£5000.00 kerching!


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## Captain Beeflat (Dec 4, 2006)

The road holding is really very good for a car which is a fast tourer rather than an out and out sports car...and no ESP is fitted on my car.


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## HighTT (Feb 14, 2004)

Captain Beeflat said:


> The road holding is really very good for a car which is a fast tourer rather than an out and out sports car..)


The road holding IS good ...... it's the handling (in standard form) that leaves a little to be desired.


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

The TT, even in standard form, can leave most cars behind in the twisties. :wink:


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## MBK (Jan 25, 2004)

imo the TT handling is just fine if you invest your first Â£500 in some good driver training MAC\Cadence\Ultimate Care Control etc, rather than a remap. The remap comes in handy now and then once you know what you are doing of course :wink:

Make yourself quick first, rather than the car, the bonus is you are transferable - few performance mods are! Plenty of people with all the gear and no idea...amazing how many Clio's you see flying past 911's at the 'ring.

I agree with all the comments about the ESP system, very agressive, all VAG systems seem to be. Switched 'off', or rather down, it is a good system - it lets the gifted play and yet still saves the innocent when eyes look beyond talent.

On the road the TT is pretty much a match for anything, unless they are willing to risk life and licence, if you learn the way to get the best from them. On track their is always a lighter fish or whatever the saying is.


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## S10TYG (Mar 7, 2007)

coilovers, arbs, haldex, defcon, youre away!


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## jules13 (Jan 3, 2021)

Hi, looking to improve handling, not doing track just for everyday use and weekend fun.
Don't want to drop height, to many bumps to clear where I am.

What coilovers are the best for this? if anyone has experience. Simple coilovers not too harsh but stiffer than stock suspension that improve handling.

What solutions are there for suspensions with 2 settings that can be changed with the flick of a button? plush for town use, harder for when you get out? Sorry for this possible noob question, just getting into this...

Thanks.


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

Billstein B14

Front top mount from the Seat Leon Cupra R which is nearly as stiff as the polyurethane offerings...... Part no. 1ML412331

5mm plastic spacer with a hole for the rubber pip from the spring mount platform - it pokes through and still engages with the arm despite being raised away. The description is "washer" and the part number 1J0 511 341 A.

All that allows you to adjust to standard height.

Details for alignment here: https://www.ttforum.co.uk/forum/viewtop ... t=bilstein


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## JoeKan (Mar 10, 2019)

When the TT was first released in 1998 (or there about) the motoring press raved about the handling, how sharp and agile it was and how the whole suspension design gave the car exceptionally crisp handling. When the first models made it into the hands of the public, it was discovered that at high speeds (over 160kmh), if one let up on the throttle in a high speed turn (like on the autobahn) the rear end would lift and come around, swapping ends. This caused a few unexperienced drivers to meet their untimely demise. One of the factory test drivers also died while doing high speed testing during development. Might be a reason for the added weights at the rear bumper.

Audi (VAG) was forced to recall the car and redesign the handing (dumb it down) for the general public by revising the front and rear suspension to build in understeer from what was then a very neutral handling car, and add the spoiler to add high speed stability (at the expense of more aero drag). The overly aggressive ESP was also added in to save the inexperienced drivers from themselves. When the motoring press reviewed the revised suspension package, they remarked that the TT handling was now no better than that of a pedestrian Golf.

Newspaper article: https://www.nytimes.com/2000/02/20/auto ... eaths.html
Motoring Press Review: https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a1 ... road-test/

All the suspension tuning that people do now is actually returning the TT to what it used to be. It's funny, but the Honda S2000, known to have very good handling, has the same traits as it will spin on you if you back off the throttle mid turn (do a bit of looking on YouTube), but it was never publicized that people died in a Honda, so Honda never had to revise the handing.

If I drive my 225 in 2WD, the understeer is pretty bad. But with the HPA Programmer set to 50%-50% split, when driven in a spirited manner, it is a very neutral handling car... and the car is stock except for the HPA.


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## jules13 (Jan 3, 2021)

@John-H - thanks for the detailed info.
Geometry is a pain, I already fitted Lemforder fixed tie-bars, wish I'd though about adjustable tie-bars before.

Forgot to mention, my TT is pre-facelift, so 370mm would be the standard height (center wheel - fender arch).

So if I do:

1. B14 coilovers and stiffer upper front strut mounts
2. Powerflex purple front wishbones bushes
3. Stiffer ARBs front and back (R32 if I can find them, or H&R)

Would it be enough to improve handling (sharper steering) and reduce understeer while keeping ride height?
What else would be recommended, if there is...


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## jules13 (Jan 3, 2021)

@JoeKan

Nice info on the history, although knew some of it, interesting to read the original articles [smiley=book2.gif]

As for keeping the haldex clutch always engaged, how much does it shorten the haldex unit's life you reckon?
Or that controller does more than that?
Read somewhere that there is a cheap (50£) screw that somehow keeps it engaged, you replace an original screw on the haldex unit with this one which is deeper or something, same result I guess as that aftermarket controller...


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## torqueit (Jan 22, 2019)

The HPA controller has a variety of modes with different levels of power sent to the rear. Read more about it from the maker here:

https://www.hpamotorsports.com/products ... programmer

Many of us who have this like to leave it in "competition" mode, which will keep you close to 50% to the rear full time, but it still varies the power split in response to other inputs.

I have not heard reports of undue haldex wear issues from the HPA controller.

The "bolt" you're thinking of is a Powertrak insert. It will keep the haldex at a full 50% all the time. The big difference here to the HPA controller is the HPA doesn't lock it in and takes in inputs from other things going on in the car, so it can adjust the amount of power to the rear to make life better when doing things like going around tight corners. The Powertrak with the 50% locked in full time can result in some skipping in really tight corners as the front and rear wheels want to rotate at different speeds and can't.

The HPA is pricey, but it's probably one of the most significant improvements you can make. That and a set of cookbot inserts in the front control arms so you can run the original size bushings will make a huge change in the handling, but I see you have a 1999. I believe that is before Audi switched the bushing style. Do you have the original control arms still fitted or know if the car had them replaced under recall?


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## BadgerTT (Nov 16, 2019)

I came across this guide last week: https://balancemotorsport.co.uk/suspens ... -and-setup. Sadly they are too far from me.

Suspension/handling dynamics clearly have multiple influences, I found this a really worthwhile read.


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

Jules13

My TT is a 1999 and I've been through the same situation, trials and tribulations. I didn't want to drop the ride height unduly because of speed bumps and bad roads. I wasn't into the slammed dropped look like some enthuse about - as an engineer and having driven on road rallies years ago those cars look wrong to me as they are not optimised for driving enthusiastically on real roads - you'd just be risking damaging your sump or ripping your exhaust off all the time.

I had driven a TT with Koni coil overs fitted and I liked the stiffness improvement over standard so decided to give that kit a try.

I'd read up about all the TT suspension recall modifications (and mine had been on the recall programme) so at the same time I got some DEFCON sleeves to reduce the size of the front TCA arms' bush so the smaller and therefore stiffer original could be installed and replaced the TCA voided rear bush with the original solid. Awesome were doing a Koni coilover deal at the time so I let them do it all and I'd asked for the height to be set to as near standard as possible. They could get about 360 mm at the front but slightly lower at the rear.

Performance was transformational. More go cart like with responsive steering feeling like the difference you got when fitting a quick rack to a Ford Escort but you didn't need to build up arm muscles.

There were problems however with crashing suspension noise over dips and bumps in the road. As it turned out this was due to coilovers having a shorter piston length to achieve lower ride height. Basically if you then set the height high theres not much upwards movement left before the floating strut drops out of the tunnel - so riding over a bump which would otherwise have the wheel drop and keep on the road could in some circumstances hang suspended and there's play in the top retaining washer assembly. It's a marginal condition slight lowering stops it.

The rear height being too low was cured with the plastic spacing discs you can fit but I also noticed the spring adjuster was set with only one thread engagement!

There was the possibility of changing the kit for non-coilover kit but I liked the idea of adjustment capability.

Having fitted adjustable rear tie bars in the lower position you get to know the interdependence of ride height, camber and toe. The rear set up is a compromise but can be set satisfactorily. I had previously cured what felt like axle tramp at the rear, when hitting a bump on a bend, with trailing arm front bush PowerFlex replacements and a Golf 4-motion 16mm ARB which also helped to reduce understeer and make the car more neutral handling.

The final performance improvement was fitting a blue Haldex controller. The sports controller doesn't just wait for wheel slip before activating but also clamps the Haldex clutch when you press the accelerator - that removed the front-rear transfer wobble you used to get when the front wheels slipped as you put your foot down on cornering. This pre-emptive action made the car feel remarkably more stable - like a giant hand holding the car steady on cornering giving you the ability to four wheel drift controlled with a bit of opposite lock steering.

There was an orange controller available that also engaged the clutch on lift off to give engine braking but that can be a bit more lethal in slippy conditions.

Engaging all the time with a bolt could also be problematic encouraging oversteer on lift off cornering as well as wheel skipping on tight corners and extra tyre wear if not the clutch.

The Haldex of course can only clamp front to rear - there's no centre diff so if you imagine powering over a patch of ice with a blue controller - you've initially got 50:50 front-rear power transfer then as you hit the ice the front wheels will slip giving 100% rear power transfer then as you pass over you get 50:50 again then as the rear hits the ice patch you get 100% front power engagement then back to 50:50 until you lift off or stop accelerating.

Moving on, the Koni's were a pain however I had numerous spring breakages front and rear. I eventually fitted a Bilstein B14 kit I got from the TTShop. The Seat CupraR front top bushes are stiffer with two internal metal sections as opposed to one and they sit slightly taller so you don't need the strut adjustment platform to raise the car quite as much. I also found the rear spring adjusters had plenty of thread adjustment left with an all round height of 357 mm when last I set it up.

I've been running the B14s a few years now with no suspension crashing and no spring breakages. Hope that helps.


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## jules13 (Jan 3, 2021)

@torqueit
My TT has the recall.

The HPA controller looks pretty cool, has a touchscreen control for modes, pretty nice. I've put it on the list, as a final bit, after I sort the mechanical stuff.

The ESP gets on my nerves more than anything else, never seen an ESP so aggressive.
I read here on the forum that even if turned off from the button, it still cuts on abrupt maneuvers. 
I don't actually want if off, but just less aggressive, need to figure out in VCDS how to set it to OFF by default on car start.
If anyone has some experience on this, please share? [smiley=gossip.gif]


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## jules13 (Jan 3, 2021)

@BadgerTT
Nice clean article, thanks.
In the same idea, for future readers, I've found this useful also: https://www.vwvortex.com/threads/lets-t ... n.5197012/


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## jules13 (Jan 3, 2021)

@John-H
Yea, it really helps to get feedback from real-life experience, much appreciated.

For the 357mm rear height, did you make camber adjustment or is it negligible?
The facelift version I understand was lowered to 360mm, but don't know if rear tie-bars were changed, if lower rear tie-bars were shorter.

Has anyone kept the stock suspension (post-recall), but just changed various bushes (stiffer), ARBs and haldex controller? if yes, which bushes and how would the ride be like?


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## David C (Apr 15, 2013)

jules13 said:


> The facelift version I understand was lowered to 360mm, but don't know if rear tie-bars were changed, if lower rear tie-bars were shorter.


Rear tie bars were not changed with ride height changes.

They changed at the 2000 recall. Pre-recall had the same length upper & lower bars, post recall used a different lower bar (I think longer).


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## David C (Apr 15, 2013)

John-H said:


> ...
> I'd read up about all the TT suspension recall modifications (and mine had been on the recall programme) so at the same time I got some DEFCON sleeves to reduce the size of the front TCA arms' bush so the smaller and therefore stiffer original could be installed and *replaced the TCA voided rear bush with the original solid*.


Sounds like they had fitted the wrong bushes to your car during the recall.
The pre-recall bush was the voided one (a Mk4 Golf part)
The post recall bush was the solid one (a specific Mk1 TT part)

So at the recall the front wishbones went from having a firm front bush and soft rear bush, to having a slightly softer front bush with a firmer rear bush.


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

David C said:


> John-H said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...


You are right David. Thinking about it (it was a few years ago) a voided bush was fitted on one side incorrectly when one failed as I found out and I freshened up both sides with new solid bushes - hence the confusion. The original original was voided and the recall made them solid.

Incidentally I've seen some people replace these with PowerFlex only to find them go sloppy with the centre pin opening out an oval in the bush halves - they don't pivot they tilt - so arguably a bonded bush is better - until it unbonds but most of the failures I've seen have been the outer aluminium shell slide loose.


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## JoeKan (Mar 10, 2019)

Jules13,

I only run the HPA Programmer at 50-50 when doing my canyon runs. If on the highway or traffic, I usually have it set to OFF (100-0). On moderately fast twisties, I like the 65-35 split. I have a magnetic mount between the 2 center vents and I've rigged a removable USB power cable to keep it powered as the internal battery won't last the length of my trips. For a change of power split, you can punch up whatever split you want, whenever. And if you are adventurous, you can even program your own parameters for engagement into the 'Dynamic' mode.

The best thing I've 'discovered' about the HPA, when going 'full tilt' in the twisties, is that there is literarily 'no drama' with the car going through corners. In 2WD, you'd have a handful at 1/2 the speed.


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## davebowk (Aug 16, 2019)

+1 for the HPA, it's like your'e driving a different car. Usually run mine in sport mode.


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## David C (Apr 15, 2013)

John-H said:


> You are right David. Thinking about it (it was a few years ago) a voided bush was fitted on one side incorrectly when one failed as I found out and I freshened up both sides with new solid bushes - hence the confusion. The original original was voided and the recall made them solid.
> 
> Incidentally I've seen some People replace these with PowerFlex only to find them go sloppy with the centre pin opening out an oval in the bush halves - they don't pivot they tilt - so arguably a bonded bush is better - until it unbonds but most of the failures I've seen have been the outer aluminium shell slide loose.


I've seen that with Powerflex on a few cars on forums.
I'd also suspect that the Powerflex for the post recall front bush may actually be softer than the OEM bush in some directions, given the quite large oval metal centre in the OEM bush.

I've got the Defcon type sleeves (from CB Auto) in the front with Superpro bushes and the Superpro caster increase bush in the rear.

I did that a couple of years ago when the rear bushes failed (centre part unbonded), they were the original 2003 factory fit, so they had lasted well.


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## jules13 (Jan 3, 2021)

@John-H
For the 357mm rear height, did you make camber adjustment or is it negligible?


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

jules13 said:


> @John-H
> For the 357mm rear height, did you make camber adjustment or is it negligible?


I went out to the car tonight doing some other jobs but took a tape measure to check. It's still at 357 mm. I'd have to check but from memory it was -2º15' or so camber at the rear.


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## BadNun (Mar 11, 2016)




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## GARAGE HERMIT (Mar 7, 2015)

John-H said:


> jules13 said:
> 
> 
> > @John-H
> ...


think you have 1 degree too much camber, jmpo,


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

GARAGE HERMIT said:


> John-H said:
> 
> 
> > jules13 said:
> ...


I did try -1º30' but it made the car handle like a fork lift truck and was far too trail happy cornering at the extremes. I found -2º15' to give a much more neutral handling allowing a four wheel slide under power controlled by the steering.

I've got a standard 20 mm front ARB and updated 16 rear ARB to give a little more oversteer to dial out the standard understeer. Some people fit a thicker front ARB which will promote understeer so perhaps less rear negative camber for them might work in the balance by giving less grip all round.


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## davebowk (Aug 16, 2019)

Mine was -2.5 degree at 350mm height and the rear felt very skittish on bumps.
Reduced it to -1.5 degree and reset the rear toe and got a massive improvement on rear grip and stability.
Re drilled the original rear arb as well which helped with the understeer.
The car then felt very balanced but the biggest improvement after the above has to be the HPA controller.


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

I had a repeatable problem with a bump on a bend that caused momentary rear steering when going over it. That was cured by replacing the worn trailing arm front bushes with PowerFlex. The rear set up increases negative camber on compression so with body roll and the tie bar pivot points the outside wheel tends to upright for maximum grip but the toe can become uncontrolled with a worn bush and cause a momentary steer.


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## jules13 (Jan 3, 2021)

@John-H
So you think the rear ARB should be enough then to balance the car. Great info.


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## BadgerTT (Nov 16, 2019)

Wondering from the parts manual (https://audi.7zap.com/en/rdw/audi+tt+tt ... 05-505030/) whether pre-recall used a slightly thicker rear ARB (15mm)? So going from post Recall 14mm to a 4Motion 16mm seems a progressive way to go for the single ARB change.


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

jules13 said:


> @John-H
> So you think the rear ARB should be enough then to balance the car. Great info.


I can only describe my experience. Don't forget I've a sports Haldex controller which also helps.


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## jules13 (Jan 3, 2021)

John-H said:


> jules13 said:
> 
> 
> > @John-H
> ...


Yeah, taking that into consideration as well, thanks.


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## jules13 (Jan 3, 2021)

Has anyone used this mod for the haldex controller? seems similar to HPA.

https://www.vdveer-engineering.nl/index ... lay-detail

Since the blue controller is practically impossible to find, was looking for alternatives.


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## davebowk (Aug 16, 2019)

jules13 said:


> Has anyone used this mod for the haldex controller? seems similar to HPA.
> 
> https://www.vdveer-engineering.nl/index ... lay-detail
> 
> Since the blue controller is practically impossible to find, was looking for alternatives.


Works out dearer than the HPA controller when you add taxes but it does use a phone app which is better.

I would have bought this type rather than the HPA if i'd known about it as i have a double din android HU


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## David C (Apr 15, 2013)

davebowk said:


> jules13 said:
> 
> 
> > Has anyone used this mod for the haldex controller? seems similar to HPA.
> ...


There is an iPhone app for it too. 8) [smiley=book2.gif] 
Does look nice and neat, much better with an app to put on your own device than being tied to the device HPA supply.

Option of a 12-position switch would be great for track cars to be able to quickly select from 12 custom pre-sets to suit track conditions, tyre wear, etc..


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## davebowk (Aug 16, 2019)

I asked HPA if they are planning an Android app. Got no reply.


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## torqueit (Jan 22, 2019)

jules13 said:


> Has anyone used this mod for the haldex controller? seems similar to HPA.
> 
> https://www.vdveer-engineering.nl/index ... lay-detail
> 
> Since the blue controller is practically impossible to find, was looking for alternatives.


It looks interesting, but I'd read through the documentation on both units carefully. At first glance, the HPA may give you more control on certain things, like amount of engagement under braking, which can be set as a percentage with the HPA - not sure if it's just an on/off on this unit.


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

David C said:


> davebowk said:
> 
> 
> > jules13 said:
> ...


Have you got a modified controller David and how have you found it?


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## David C (Apr 15, 2013)

John-H said:


> David C said:
> 
> 
> > jules13 said:
> ...


No, still standard Haldex.
I considered it when the HPA kit appeared a few years ago, but the year and a bit that it took to finally ship after many people had paid up front didn't leave a good feeling and needing to use their dedicated touch panel pretty much turned me off to the idea.

The DIY option that appeared on here a while ago was interesting, but Android only (so limited appeal).

This one is tempting though....


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## jules13 (Jan 3, 2021)

@David C
Do you mean the post with a physical switch connected to haldex fuse and Powertrack insert?


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## jules13 (Jan 3, 2021)

Also, has anyone installed a Quaife front LSD? 
I cant find any info on their site if they have something for the 6-speed quattro.


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## David C (Apr 15, 2013)

jules13 said:


> @David C
> Do you mean the post with a physical switch connected to haldex fuse and Powertrack insert?


No.

That Haldex controller linked to above had the option of a 12 position rotary switch to select custom preset modes.


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## David C (Apr 15, 2013)

jules13 said:


> Also, has anyone installed a Quaife front LSD?
> I cant find any info on their site if they have something for the 6-speed quattro.


Wavetrac have LSD available for them.


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## jules13 (Jan 3, 2021)

David C said:


> jules13 said:
> 
> 
> > Also, has anyone installed a Quaife front LSD?
> ...


Cool, thanks, a bit more expensive i see...

Does anyone have any experience with it?


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## jules13 (Jan 3, 2021)

Pretty awsome, Wavetrac even has a rear LSD for Quattro.
And here is some information on how it gets mounted: https://www.regalautosport.com/blog/all ... -atb-lsds/


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## jules13 (Jan 3, 2021)

Here is the experience of someone who used Quaife and Wavetrac:
https://forums.tdiclub.com/index.php?th ... ck.254623/


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