# engine rattle tfsi



## chrisj82 (Jun 15, 2012)

I have just uploaded a video of a slight rattle not 100% what it is we have checked for chain stretch.Im started to think it maybe waste gate rattle so we will try one of those clips to see if its that. If not if may well be the tensioner or something to do with the camshaft variable valve timing. not really sure. what do you think ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7Su5WJ ... l=CarChris


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## SwissJetPilot (Apr 27, 2014)

Scan it and check the measurement blocks for starters.


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## chrisj82 (Jun 15, 2012)

SwissJetPilot said:


> Scan it and check the measurement blocks for starters.


I checked 93 on obdeleven is that what you mean swiss ?


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## SwissJetPilot (Apr 27, 2014)

You can do this with VCDS or OBDeleven. The timing chains values in blocks 90,91, 208 & 209 must always be read when the engine is warm. Measurements must always be taken at a minimum of about 60°C operating/oil temperature or higher, otherwise the cam adjustment is not yet fully active.

*Group 090* - Camshaft Adjustment (Bank 1: Exhaust)
• Block 001 - Engine Speed,(G28),Specification (Idle): 590...850 RPM\nSpecification
(Test/Raised Idle Speed): 2000...3000 RPM
• Block 2 - Exhaust Camshaft,Duty Cycle
• Block 3 - 090,3,Adjustment,(specified),
• Block 4 - 4,Adjustment,(actual),Tolerance in relation to (specified): ±5.0°KW\nCheck measurement
Group 001.2 must be above 60.0 °C

*Group 091* - Camshaft Adjustment (Bank 1: Intake)
• Block 1 - Engine Speed,(G28),Specification (Idle): 590...850 RPM\nSpecification
(Test/Raised Idle Speed): 2000...3000 RPM
• Block 2 - Intake Camshaft,Duty Cycle
• Block 3 - Cam. Adjustment,B1 Intake (spec.)
• Block 4 - Cam. Adjustment,B1 Intake (act.),Tolerance to Specification (Idle): ±4.0 °KW\nTolerance to Specification (Idle): ±4.0°KW\nCoolant Temperature (MVB 001.2) must be above 60.0 °C!









*Group 208* - Camshaft Adjustment Adaptation (Intake)
• Block 1 - Engine Speed,(G28),Range: 0...6500 RPM\nSpecification
(Test Cycle): 650...1000 RPM
• Block 2 - Phase Position,Intake Cam.,Specification: 113.0...129.0 °KW
• Block 3 - Intake Cam.,Offset,Specification: -8.0...+8.0 °KW
• Block 4 - Intake Cam.,Adaptation,

*Group 209* - Camshaft Adjustment Adaptation (Exhaust)
• Block 1 - Engine Speed,(G28),Range: 0...6500 U/min\nSpecification
(Test Cycle): 650...1000 U/min
• Block 2 - Phase Position,Exhaust Cam.,Specification: 66.0...82.0 °KW
• Block 3 - Exhaust Cam.,Offset,Specification: -8.0...+8.0 °KW
• Block 4 - Exhaust Cam.,Adaptation









Found this on one of the German forums - (translated for your reading pleasure)

*Definitive Guide to checking chains.*

Just want to post up the following top help assist in any timing chain queries. I do a lot of trawling on the German VAG forums and finally got around to translating the information below that will no doubt be helpful to many.

The information below has been part translated in google translate and then finished/validated by my Mrs. As such it is provided here as-is.

To test the timing chains often only the values in VCDS blocks 208 & 209 are deemed relevant. However, this is misleading for correct diagnosis of guide/chain wear and possibly other components.

Therefore, ALWAYS reference blocks 90 & 91 when checking blocks 208 & 209. This then basically references the cam to crank timing via the intermediate shaft by correlation of the crank sensor to the cam phase sensors.

• The timing chains values in blocks 90,91, 208 & 209 must always be read when the engine is warm. Measurements must always be taken at a minimum of about 60°C operating/oil temperature or higher, otherwise the cam adjustment is not yet fully active.

• Measurements are always taken at idle

*Valid for both MK4 and MK5 R32:*
• Blocks 208 & 209 should be as close as possible to 0°, the spread should not exceed 3°. The absolute wear limit is 8° spread whether + or minus. If the spread is well above 3° but under the limit, then chain & guide replacement should be considered.

Cross examination of the intermediate shaft values of blocks 90 & 91:

*Golf 4 R32 only (intake adjustment range 52°/exhaust adjustment range 22°):*
• Block 90 (exhaust) set-point is 0°, no matter the values in blocks 208 & 209, at a duty ratio of about 15.3%. The actual value should not be more than 0.5° out (Valid for both OEM & aftermarket cams). If the values are way off from 0° the timing chain may be mistimed or skipped. Around 11.25° deviation corresponds to a skip of 1 tooth.
• Block 91 (intake) set-point is 22° between idle to about 1200RPM, no matter what the values read in blocks 208 & 209, at a duty ratio of about 15.3%.
The actual value should not be more than 0.5° out (valid for both OEM & aftermarket cams). If the value is not close to 22° the timing chain may be mistimed or skipped. Around 11.25 ° deviation corresponds to a skip of 1 tooth.

*Golf 5 R32 & Audi BUB only (intake adjustment range 52°/exhaust adjustment range 42°):*
• For both blocks 90 & 91 the set-point value at idle is 0°, no matter what the values in blocks 208 & 209, at a duty ratio of about 15.3%.
The actual value should not be more than 0.5 ° (Valid for both OEM & aftermarket cams).
If the values are way off from 0° the timing chain may be mistimed or skipped. Around 11.25° deviation corresponds to a skip of 1 tooth.

You can for whatever reason also check the cam/crank timing manually by setting the timing to TDC via the timing mark on the crank pulley then pulling the cam phase sensors and checking where the centre parts of the cam variators sit with respect to the sensor hole. I'll dig out a pic from somewhere and annotate it as it's quite obvious once you see it. I guess this won't be quite as accurate as checking blocks 90,91, 208 and 209 in VCDS but might prove helpful nonetheless.

*Additional for consideration:*

As is known faulty cam phase sensors cause spurious readings. However a surprising point to note is that high values are not always indicative of worn guides or a stretched chain! There have been many (and I mean many!) instances in Germany whereby poor service intervals (Longlife) has gummed up the cam variators/VVT assemblies/solenoids resulting in high values that's clearly appeared to be worn chains but after several oil flushes and filter changes returned to almost perfect 'out the factory' values. There appears to be some correlation between the intercam timing spread and the intermediate shaft values that points to this; if I can find the original page I'll save it off and translate it. As best as I can tell a good way to help in diagnosing if the chains truly require replacing is to also log the requested vs actual cam timing in VCDS. One of the symptoms of sluggish cam timing is mild bucking/hesitancy similar to a faulty MAF. If the actual values values are slow to match the requested values then his points to a gummed up VVT system or the inlet gauze possibly being blocked.

The snapped chain syndrome on the early MK4s was attributed to the Sachs stamping weakening the chain links and also related to chemical corrosion caused by the extended Longlife service intervals (A topic for a possible future post when I get around to translating it). Chain stretch was mainly attributed to buggy/poor implementation (in early software revisions) of the VVT causing cam kickback and resonance effects on the chains at particular RPMs; this also may attribute to guide wear (but the likely main culprit was still the extended Longlife -what an oxymoron- service intervals) and (I've not fully translated this yet) possibly linked to faulty pressure relief valves in some oil pumps although that again could simply be caused by the extended Longlife service intervals.


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## chrisj82 (Jun 15, 2012)

Cheers swiss,this is a 2.0 tfsi when I used 93 in live data on the obdeleven I got a reading when the car was warm on -3.64 I heard that -or+ 5 was bad.this is the guide I used to check it 



 you can also see in my vid of me doing this


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## Barr_end (Oct 19, 2016)

For your info...
As much as I know audi badge it up as a TFSI, it isn't. It is not EA113 engine.

That's an EA888, that is a TSI motor that is purely chain driven.
If in the lower generations Gen 1/2 (fairly sure Gen 1 never saw a TT) Then the noise maybe chain tensioner/guide wear or failure


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## Flashy (Nov 8, 2019)

I thought yours was an EA113 Chris (57 plate)? They are belt driven, whereas the 2010 facelift EA888 has the chain.


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## chrisj82 (Jun 15, 2012)

Flashy said:


> I thought yours was an EA113 Chris (57 plate)? They are belt driven, whereas the 2010 facelift EA888 has the chain.


that's right mate mine is a ea113 this is a friends that is a ea888


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## chrisj82 (Jun 15, 2012)

Barr_end said:


> For your info...
> As much as I know Audi badge it up as a TFSI, it isn't. It is not EA113 engine.
> 
> That's an EA888, that is a TSI motor that is purely chain driven.
> If in the lower generations Gen 1/2 (fairly sure Gen 1 never saw a TT) Then the noise maybe chain tensioner/guide wear or failure


good point mate Audi seem to put anything on a engine cover and its defiantly a ea888 engine .chain tensioner seems like the likely suspect but after doing some looking around I found the same noise in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SXzGOQ ... =ThatGuyTy
so my friend has ordered a clip to try out before it goes to the garage.we will do a update video with the clip and try and get a better sound of the rattle.


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## SwissJetPilot (Apr 27, 2014)

This clip? It's an old TSB.









View attachment ENGINE - Rattling Noise from Engine 2.0 TFSI EA888 Transverse.pdf

Here's a good Youtube from *Charles the Humble Mechanic* on how this clip works and also why it may not solve the problem -

*2.0t TSI Turbo Rattle and WasteGate Issue*


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## chrisj82 (Jun 15, 2012)

SwissJetPilot said:


> This clip? It's an old TSB.
> 
> View attachment 2
> 
> ...


that's the one swiss
I watched a few videos including this one and thought for the little amount of money its worth a try before he goes spending over 1k on chain and tensioner


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## TT'sRevenge (Feb 28, 2021)

Barr_end said:


> For your info...
> As much as I know audi badge it up as a TFSI, it isn't. It is not EA113 engine.
> 
> That's an EA888, that is a TSI motor that is purely chain driven.
> If in the lower generations Gen 1/2 (fairly sure Gen 1 never saw a TT) Then the noise maybe chain tensioner/guide wear or failure


The problem lies in how Audi names them which is why it's not a good idea to go by "FSI" "TSI" and "TFSI" As you can see in the video the engine cover clearly says "TFSI" on it, as do nearly all EA888s in_ Audi_ cars. Only VW puts "TSI" on the engine covers.

Adding insult to injury older EA113 engines some say "FSI" and some say "Turbo FSI". The HO version in the TT-S also says the exact same "TFSI" as Audi cars with EA888 engines.

The engines (both EA113 and EA888) are, technically speaking, Audi [division] designed engines so one could argue whatever they call it, is what it_ is_. But the reality is these letters don't tell you about what engine you have and should really not be used to describe what engine you're looking at. What should be used is the family (like EA888) and the three or four letter engine code, like BPY or CESA.

All TFSI (or even Turbo FSI) means for sure is "*T*urbocharged, *F*uel *S*tratified *I*njection", it doesn't actually mean anything in particular to what engine you have. V6 and V8 engines also carry these names as did the badging on the cars (at least in Can/US) for several years, most of which are equipped with 2.0T EA888 motors.

Anyway going to Chris' problem (or his mate's rather)...

The idea at 8:23 to "clear codes" is really not the best move. First of all clearing codes doesn't fix a problem, second of all if you suspect these are old codes you should check the data--what date/time and mileage were they set and what was the fault frequency. The one you deleted there that was an evap code... Did you run the EVAP system test afterwards? A faulty evap purge (N80) valve will rattle like mad. Now I don't think that's the problem here from the noise and coming off the throttle like that but just something to mention--don't "clear codes" to _start_ a diagnosis.

You didn't state what model year the car is or the build date I don't think. Any EA888 built before late 2012 will have the old tensioner, you will need to get this out ASAP if that's the case *regardless of timing value*. Read: It. Is. A. Timebomb. One from late 2012 into 2013 should still be checked at least, to ensure it does have the updated tensioner. 2014 model year and beyond should definitely be the newer revision and there probably isn't a need to check.


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## SwissJetPilot (Apr 27, 2014)

You can DIY the tensioner inspection and replacement, but you'll want to put the car up on a lift. *Charles the Humble Mechanic* and *Paul from Deutsche Auto Parts* have a couple of good Youtube videos on this topic -

*How The 2.0T TSI Timing Chain Tensioner Fails*





*How to Check your 2.0t TSI Timing Chain Tensioner*





*2.0t TSI Timing Chain Tensioner Update*













If you do decide to do this yourself, don't buy a replacement from a reseller. Get it directly from VAG -

*Fake Chinese Timing Tensioners - Buyer Beware!*
https://www.ttforum.co.uk/forum/viewtop ... &t=1836089


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## chrisj82 (Jun 15, 2012)

so I revisited Rob this weekend to see how he's getting on with this rattle, here is the update video of how he has got on.


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## Hoggy (May 8, 2002)

Hi Chris, I'm confused that engine sounds terrible. Surely a TFSI engine doesn't sound that bad.
Thought you'd posted the before video by mistake.
Hoggy.


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## chrisj82 (Jun 15, 2012)

Hoggy said:


> Hi Chris, I'm confused that engine sounds terrible. Surely a TFSI engine doesn't sound that bad.
> Thought you'd posted the before video by mistake.
> Hoggy.


I know what you mean mate its a different mic always makes sounds worst than it actually is


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