# Help - Alleged Dangerous driving Interview under caution



## jonathanhaslam (Jun 30, 2013)

I've managed to find myself in a pickle, for something I believe I was not my fault or at wrong.

*Short story*, I was parking on the pavement outside a shop last week in a residential area, a child ran out, I braked, did not hit the child. Heated exchange of words. Mother made a complaint to police, and now I have a letter from Police and have to go for a interview under caution tomorrow (will be recorded, and police are providing a Solicitor free of charge).
Later found out that the woman actually lives above one of the shops, she is claiming a witness saw me nearly hit her child (the witness is the shop keeper below and they are good friends). I dont even think the witness was present there, and its a falsified witness or at the very least greatly exagerated.

I've attached pictures of the shop front, in which you can see other vehicles parked on the pavement.

Nothing like this has ever happened to me. Im slighlty worried.
Whats the law say on dangerous driving, i know its a max of 2 years prision and 3-11points or a ban. But doesn't there have to be some hard evidence, not just a statement and 'eye witness'. Whats to stop anyone alleging anyone they dont like of dangerous driving.

Please constructive and helpful comments only.
For those who are gonna say I should not park or drive on the pavement, I would ask you do you not park 2 wheels on the pavement on a narrow road, or drive on the pavement to get to your drive way. I have checked the law, and the law does not prohibit parking on the pavement (so long as its not dangerous, obstructive or signed otherwise) - only exceptions are London and parts of Exeter where parking on pavement is not allowed. The law does say you can not drive on the pavement though.


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## jonathanhaslam (Jun 30, 2013)

*Long Version*

On returning home from my office job, and decided I did not want to cook at home. My Father told me to call into the Shop (Canton Chef, 60 Hulme Road) to pick up some dinner.

When I arrived on Hulme Road, there were unfortunately no parking spaces available in the bay. Opting not to double park and possibly cause a dangerous obstruction to traffic, I decided it was a better option to park onto the paved area outside the shop. The area is frequently used by many drivers and customers as parking overflow, seeing no double yellow lines or signs to say otherwise I believed it would be a safe place to park temporarily whilst I went in to collect my food, and would not cause any obstruction.

As I entered the paved area, I noticed 2 women and also an unaccompanied child 5 meters further away from the women. 
The child was looking into the window of the adjacent shop to Canton Chef. I did not honk my horn, as I felt that maybe rude and startle the child from behind. My approach was slow, a creeping crawl as I neared the shop front.

I left space either side of my car, as I passed the women first on my passenger side. At the time my car was just passing the child, my car was in between the women's line of sight and the child. It was at this point one of the women (I assume the mother), panicked and called out loud to the child, the child immediately turned around and without looking ran towards the sound of her mother. The child ran out directly in front of my car, I immediately braked and came to a sudden stop. As I came to a stop, the car dropped down a gear, causing it to rev, after the child passed, I put the car back in gear to move forward, again the engine made a small rev sound.

I then got out of the car, to go into the shop.

Mother: "You shouldn't be here... even in your flash car"
I briefly make eye contact with her, thinking how best to respond, turn around to close my car door.
Mother "F*** rude bast** Chinese"

As she was swearing and becoming aggressive, I decided it best to not engage her in risk of further aggravating her, and walk away into the shop.

A few minutes later, I walk out of the shop with food.
I was then approached by 2 women, the mother and another women (Child's grandmother).

Grandmother: "Can I have a word with you?"
I: "Yes"
Grandmother: "You nearly scared my granddaughter to death"
I: "I am sorry, I saw the child and avoided the child"
Grandmother: "You revved your engine in front of her"
I: "Sorry that's just the sound the car makes changing gears, I am sorry I scared her, what more can I say?" 
Mother: "That's not what you said before"
I: "That's because you already swearing 'Fu*** Bast**d Chinese" that is pretty racists"
Grandmother: "That's my Grand Daughter, if I had been there, that's not all I would have called you, I would have hit you"

At this point I put both hands up in the air, in a surrender motion, and backup "Ok, I am sorry, I don't have the time to argue further with you."
I get into the car and drive off, as I do, the Grandmother and Mother go into the shop, and complain to my Father about what just happened.


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## jamman (May 6, 2002)

I'm confused why would you be changing gear "at a crawl" ?


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## jonathanhaslam (Jun 30, 2013)

jamman said:


> I'm confused why would you be changing gear "at a crawl" ?


Its a V6 S-tronic, when you brake sudden it drops all the gears, and when you set off again there is a small rev sound. Its not even a loud roar at those speeds, but the mother claims I revved my engine to scare her little girl


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## Dash (Oct 5, 2008)

I guess all you can do is be honest; hopefully the Police will see that it's frivolous and not take any action. Sounds like a rotten place to be, good luck.


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## Hoggy (May 8, 2002)

Hi, It is actually illegal to drive on the pavement, hopefully you will just get a fixed penalty... Any points on license ?
As they have a complaint, they must follow it up, hopefully they will have their sensible heads on, that day. 
Hoggy.


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## jonathanhaslam (Jun 30, 2013)

I should also mention that the owners of the other shop, do not particularly like my family, having previously complained about the noise. 
We can not help the sound of pans and woks and the extractor fan, thats just the nature of a Chinese Takeaway.

They also made a complaint against an Italian restuarant, which is adjacent to their shop, and forced them to close by 6pm by the Council based on noise.
Luckly my family have a late liscence, which allows us to keep our shop open at till midnight.

Some people have advise me to make a formal complaint about her racists language (though she did not use the ****** word, only F**** B*** Chinese). Im told that would hold my weight than her complaint, given todays PC correctness and media attention to racisim. But I dont really want to pull the racists card out, or make situation any worst between neighbours.

I understand as a mother, her (over) reaction to not been able to see her 2 year old daughter behind a car, but I did see the Child. What I do not understand is how she can lump that situation with me driving a "flash" car and been Chinese.

When my father re-told me what happened when she came into the shop, he said she kept repeating the word "Audi", like it was some kind of jealous or I shouldnt have such a car. Or that my driving that car made me think I could drive/park on pavement.
If I had been driving another car, and faced with the same situation I would have done the exact same thing. 
Infact I seem to recall the eye witness to have parked her car on the pavement in the past.


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## jonathanhaslam (Jun 30, 2013)

Hoggy said:


> Hi, It is actually illegal to drive on the pavement, hopefully you will just get a fixed penalty... Any points on license ?
> As they have a complaint, they must follow it up, hopefully they will have their sensible heads on, that day.
> Hoggy.


I have 3 points on my liscence from 2 years ago, for checking the weather report on my phone at a traffic light (I was neither texting or calling).

Yes I read its defo illegal to drive on the pavement, but not to park. Of course to park you must drive onto the pavement. But the police and council rarely issue tickets for such thing. You could argue you used a crane or helicopter to place the car on the pavement.
I think if you using the pavement as a through road or short cut they would defo take a dim view on the matter.

I really hope the cops can see it my way, so far they only heard her story and the witnesses


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## igotone (Mar 10, 2010)

Obstructing the footpath is a specific offence under Sec121 Highways Act 1959.

The police have received a complaint and have to investigate it. It sounds like the complaint is scaring the child with the sound of the revving engine which is nothing to do with dangerous driving. Go to the interview and explain everything to the solicitor before you start the interview which you are fully entitled to do.

During interview listen carefully to the questions you are asked and remain calm and polite. How old was the child? It seems to me the women are at fault in not exercising closer supervision.

The police receive thousands of complaints like this and a lot of them simply go no further for lack of evidence or it just being one persons word against another.


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## jonathanhaslam (Jun 30, 2013)

igotone said:


> Obstructing the footpath is a specific offence under Sec121 Highways Act 1959.
> 
> _What counts as an obstruction? Unpassable? There is plenty of space to walk around my car. And eye witness owns a bed plant shop, she regularly puts out trays upon trays of flowers outside her shop, and the italian restaurant has a extended decking area, both of which are equal or great than the space my car takes._
> 
> ...


T_hanks for your advice, i will try and remain calm. Just had a few sleepness nights. Im hoping its just procedure, they have to follow up a complaint. As for evdience I say what evidence, no CCTV nor skid marks, no damage or no one injured._


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## igotone (Mar 10, 2010)

There''s certainly no Dangerous Driving offence as far as I can see - not at the speed you were doing. Dangerous driving is a very serious offence and would require far more elements of danger than you describe. Worst case scenario it's careless or inconsiderate driving, but accepting your version of events I really don't see it.

Make sure the police are aware of the history of bad feeling between your shop and these two women.


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## NickG (Aug 15, 2013)

No evidence and only a bias eye witness? I can't see how they could charge you with anything? If that was the case you could just do the same back to the woman the following week! I wouldn't worry too much, just be prepared for the interview and i personally wouldn't roll over lightly if they do try and charge you with anything!


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## Pugwash69 (Jun 12, 2012)

The duty solicitor they will provide is independent and has your interests in mind only. Don't worry too much.
It sounds like you avoided getting into an argument with a parent who can't stop her child running around moving vehicles.


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## Shug750S (Feb 6, 2012)

Round my way the camera cars and parking wardens ticket you if not in space correctly or have a wheel on the pavement. IMO you were technically wrong to drive / park on the pavement, unless it's marked up that you can, but that shouldn't get any more than a warning or at worst fixed penalty fine.

As others above I would front it out, write down your story and stick to it. Don't elaborate on anything or express any opinions other than as above, as you are under caution. Answer any plod questions with just yes or no, and I would mention the racist comments, as that shows she's looking for trouble.

One question, from the story are you related to the take away owner, or was that just my reading of it? Maybe she has a grudge against the shop as well?

Good luck


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

NickG said:


> No evidence and only a bias eye witness? I can't see how they could charge you with anything?


The eye witness will give their version of events and the OP will give theirs. It sounds like they'll both match pretty well, so not much point claiming any bias.

It doesn't look like anyone's questioning the actual events... The question will simply be, was a law broken.


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## spaceplace (Mar 10, 2013)

Why are they letting their child run about on roads? You probably wouldn't be at fault even if you had hit the child. Obviously driving along a pavement is illegal but you only parked on it. You should report the mother to social services for allowing her child to run in the road.


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## jamman (May 6, 2002)

The child was playing about on the pavement :wink:

I really don't see why you are so worried you will prob get three points at worst or maybe just a caution doesn't matter if other people do it the fact of the matter is you really shouldn't be there.


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## SalsredTT (Jan 8, 2011)

Only read the first couple of posts here - my immediate thought is what kind of mother lets her two year old run free???

My grandson is almot that age - we harness the little monkey ALL the time unless he is safely locked in the rear garden here. Little sod will run off anywhere at anytime so you have to be on your toes with him (adorable really but a little demon)

If this had been a dog, and not a child, it should have been on a lead - I'd say almost the same applies to a child (obviously not a lead, but certainly hand in hand)

Good luck though - frankly it sounds as though her attitude stinks and you were unfortunately in the wrong place at the wrong time.


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## Hoggy (May 8, 2002)

Hi, The child was on the pavement, not on the road. The car was on the pavement not on the road.  
It's illegal to drive on the pavement, so what ever the bad feelings are between familys, the offence was committed & reported. Hopefully they will see sense & be lenient.
Hoggy.


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## SalsredTT (Jan 8, 2011)

My point, Hoggy is that if you don't have a darned good hold of demon boy, pavement, road or wherever, the little monkey will run! I feel that the mother must take a part of the blame here.


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## Hoggy (May 8, 2002)

SalsredTT said:


> My point, Hoggy is that if you don't have a darned good hold of demon boy, pavement, road or wherever, the little monkey will run! I feel that the mother must take a part of the blame here.


Hi, No one has made a complaint about the child running free on the pavement which I don't believe is an offence, but driving on the pavement is an offence & it's that, that has been reported.
Hoggy.


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## jonathanhaslam (Jun 30, 2013)

Shug750S said:


> One question, from the story are you related to the take away owner, or was that just my reading of it? Maybe she has a grudge against the shop as well?


Yes my father and mother run the shop, have done for last 6 months. But we do not own the building itself, we only rent it from friends.


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## jonathanhaslam (Jun 30, 2013)

Thanks all for the advice.
I think the interview went well, the solicitor said he does not feel it was dangerous driving. And worst case it would be careless driving, but even that should be unlikely. Will find out in a few weeks when the police have made up their minds...


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## hooting_owl (Sep 3, 2008)

from what you have written, this looks like a malicious complaint. police are obliged to investigate.

on the other hand, you were racially abused. that is a serious and unspeakably vile crime. you should report this.

i suspect that the case against you will be dropped. cops have more important things to be getting on with to keep the home secretary happy.


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## jonathanhaslam (Jun 30, 2013)

Cop came to my house today. Issued me a Traffic offense ticket "Careless or inconsiderate driving" (which is a lesser offence than dangerous driving)
He said I should be eligible for a Driver improvement course (which I have to pay for myself, I am told they are about £150), they have no points and no need to declare to insurance.

That's if they find me eligible. If not then its points and fine, or summons. But the officer said he is pushing for a driver improvement course.

I am a little bit miffed. I honestly think I did no wrong, and did what any reasonable person would have done. Even the police van that came to my house, parked with 2 wheels on the pavement.

I don't know if its worth fighting this, if I have the energy to deal with it. If they find me eligible for the course, might be less stressful to just pay up and go to the course. By no means is £150 small change to me, but luckily its landed on this side of pay day, and I am able to pay it. But it feels like I am buying myself out of a situation, one that I feel I was not at wrong, just doesn't sit right with me.
And then there is the matter of the racial abuse, at the time I said I didn't feel I wanted to make a complaint, but if I have to pay and take this course, I may wish to make a complaint. Nothing can really be proved, as I don't have her saying it on tape. And I am not really a tit for tat person, but I feel like there is some serious unfairness or miscarriage of justice here.


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## Hoggy (May 8, 2002)

Hi, Accept It & move on, no points etc. 8) 
It's illegal to drive on the pavement, we know we all do it, but if it was reported every time, we wouldn't. 
Hoggy.


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## Shug750S (Feb 6, 2012)

Maybe if the family ever come in for a take away, make sure they get some 'special' sauce on their food?
:twisted:


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## jamman (May 6, 2002)

Hoggy said:


> Hi, Accept It & move on, no points etc. 8)
> It's illegal to drive on the pavement, we know we all do it, but if it was reported every time, we wouldn't.
> Hoggy.


I agree with Hogs bend over take your medicine, move on and forgot all about it.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

A course would be a very good result, so if they offer it, jump at the chance. Fighting this would almost certainly result in more expense.

Think about it this way.. If you took it to court, would you plead guilty or not guilty, bearing in mind that you know it's an offence to drive on the pavement?


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## igotone (Mar 10, 2010)

I can see how the OP feels tbh. I'm sure it leaves a nasty taste in his mouth knowing the background to the incident. If he feels strongly enough to contest this at court, then I'm sure he's bound to lose as regardless of what the witnesses say, the child was on the pavement with a reasonable expectation not to be endangered by moving vehicles.That fact alone would I'm sure result in a conviction with a much heavier penalty and court costs to pay too.

He can seek legal advice if he wishes but I guess he'd get much the same advice. so the should take the ticket, accept the course if it's offered, it's the best result he can hope for.


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## Danny1 (Sep 2, 2010)

You know you broke the law, accept your punishment and be happy it didn't end with anything more! Secondly if you start playing the race card now you would be a joke!!


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## Pugwash69 (Jun 12, 2012)

It doesn't sounds like a "race card". It sounded like a legit. concern that the woman who reported him had other motives.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

Pugwash69 said:


> It doesn't sounds like a "race card". It sounded like a legit. concern that the woman who reported him had other motives.


If it was a legitimate concern, the OP wouldn't wait to see what happened with the careless driving charge before deciding whether or not to make a complaint about the racist comment.



jonathanhaslam said:


> at the time I said I didn't feel I wanted to make a complaint, but if I have to pay and take this course, I may wish to make a complaint..


Comments like this don't help with the perception that the racism complaint is primarily motivated by revenge, and that will be how the police, and potentially a judge, will also see things. It will be the OPs word against hers, and the lack of official complaint at at the time will damage his case


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## jonathanhaslam (Jun 30, 2013)

I've accepted the fact I'm not getting out of this one, I just hope I get the option of a course. 
I mean should I make a compliant after this matter is settled. I know it won't change the outcome, as I already have a ticket, but equally I feel she is getting off a bit too light. Also thinking would it just further worsten the situation with a bad neighbour. But don't want to roll over and just take it. 
At no point when she was swearing and been abusive did I say anything rude back to her, I kept a very level head, feel now I should have expressed a few heated words back!


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## spaceplace (Mar 10, 2013)

if it was me I think I would be looking for some payback but thats just me. she sounds like a bit*h, as you say though is it worth the hasstle if you have to see her all the time?


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## jonathanhaslam (Jun 30, 2013)

I won't do anything just yet, as the back of the ticket does say that the police are under no obligation to give me an option of a course, and can withdraw a course offer at any time up to the point that you have successfully completed a course.
Don't want to give the police any reason not to give me the course.

So I'd wait till I have done the time (the course), before I choose to do anything.
AFTER the course, the police can't change their mind, or redo me for a more serous offense of dangerous driving can they? Double jeopardy?

Another thing that is really grating me, is the wording on the ticket. "Careless or inconsiderate". I can just about accept the inconsiderate part (inconsiderate of other road users), but in no way was I careless, I was fully aware of them, the road layout, in fully control my car and speed, im the kind of person who parks furthest away in Tesco, wash my car 2-3times a week, im very careful of my car.


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## Danny1 (Sep 2, 2010)

jonathanhaslam said:


> I've accepted the fact I'm not getting out of this one, I just hope I get the option of a course.
> I mean should I make a compliant after this matter is settled. I know it won't change the outcome, as I already have a ticket, but equally I feel she is getting off a bit too light. Also thinking would it just further worsten the situation with a bad neighbour. But don't want to roll over and just take it.
> At no point when she was swearing and been abusive did I say anything rude back to her, I kept a very level head, feel now I should have expressed a few heated words back!


Great idea, go and have a rant and give her abuse that will make it even, might well also get the police calling on your door again!!

The picture/story you paint for us seems to be different than the view of the person in question, other witness and the police, the facts seems to be that you were driving on the pavement and there was a young child nearby, if you had been reversing with my child standing behind you, there would probably have been more than ranting coming at you! It is illegal and is so because it is dangerous(Doesn't matter if you deem it so or not btw).

Any family feud between you doesn't change the fact you broke the law, just accept it, learn from it, and move on.


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## Shug750S (Feb 6, 2012)

Sorry mate, by whilst it sounds harsh, you were driving (if only very slowly / carefully) on the pavement.

Agree she should have had the kid under control, but end of the day, the kid was on the pavement.

If the kid had run in the road then totally different view from me I'm afraid.

As others have said, suck it up, learn from experience and move on. No point dragging it out.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

jonathanhaslam said:


> Another thing that is really grating me, is the wording on the ticket. "Careless or inconsiderate". I can just about accept the inconsiderate part (inconsiderate of other road users), but in no way was I careless, I was fully aware of them, the road layout, in fully control my car and speed, im the kind of person who parks furthest away in Tesco, wash my car 2-3times a week, im very careful of my car.


Well, it says careless *or* inconsiderate, not *and*. And it's about being careful with other road users and pedestrians, not being careful with your own car.

But don't get hung up on the words. It's a catch-all offence that basically means your driving fell below the expected standard.


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## SBL (May 9, 2014)

Jonathan, there are 2 sides to consider here and everyone else commenting is basing their responses on what you have said.
Even though they only heard your side the general response is that you were really in the wrong. If we heard the comments from the woman then it could be even worse.
If you bring up the race issue while it sounds valid, it's likely to be a 2 onto 1 argument. Additionally you will be late in the day in bringing it up so if I was the police, my natural instinct would be doubtful.

I appreciate you feel you have been wronged here but the fact is that you were driving on the pavement and a complaint has been made. The police will do what they need to and I would advise you to politely accept and move on. There is one thing sure and certain, if you try to argue the point with the police, it will not improve your chances.


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## jonathanhaslam (Jun 30, 2013)

Thanks all for you comments.

Im not arguing the fact I've 'broken' the law by driving on the pavement, I never denied to police I drove on the pavement. I just feel the punishment is unfit for the crime.
Clearly a lot of people park there, and I know just because other's do it, doesn't make it right. But every time someone does 31mph in 30 a law is broken. I am just saying their needs to a measure to the punishment. Doing 70 in a 30 clearly is dangerous.
I wasn't speeding on the pavement, or driving on it like a road, I was merely driving to park on it, like everyone else does on the road.

My reason for perhaps wanting to make a complaint isn't to change the police decision, ive accepted Ive got a ticket.
My point is should she be allowed to get away with speaking to me in such way, and should I let her get away.
Granted she was shocked and angry, and she may have said it in anger of the moment, but is it ok to say what she said, that's like a man slaughter saying they didn't mean to kill someone when they got angry.
If I was black and she said the N word, would that be taken more serious?

For those of you who are white Caucasian, you probably never had to deal with racism living in the UK. I've had to deal with since a very young age at school. And whilst I can't blame every problem in life on racism, or times I didn't get a job after an interview, you do start to wonder sometimes. Don't get me wrong, im very proud to be Chinese, but in this situation I have to think would she had reacted the way she did, if I wasn't Chinese, and wasn't driving (in her words) a flash car.
If I had been white, and driving a old banged up Ford focus would it resulted in the same situation, as clearly there are cars all over that pavement, and she hasn't made a complaint against everyone else.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

I don't think anyone is saying she should be allowed to make comments like that. It's clearly unacceptable. We're just pointing out that you told the police at the time you didn't want to make a complaint, so it will look suspicious to them if you suddenly change your mind _after_ being charged for driving on the pavement.


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## jamman (May 6, 2002)

Spandex said:


> Pugwash69 said:
> 
> 
> > It doesn't sounds like a "race card". It sounded like a legit. concern that the woman who reported him had other motives.
> ...


Very true


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## Lollypop86 (Oct 26, 2013)

jonathanhaslam said:


> For those of you who are white Caucasian, you probably never had to deal with racism living in the UK.


WRONG very wrong! racism towards white caucasian people happens a lot but its never reported in the news and no-one really talks about it....I've been subject to it when my parents were in their old house and an asian boy across the road called me a stupid white c*nt amongst other things....the neighbours thought I was extremely calm when I looked up and down myself and said "yes whats your point!", did I call the police? Hell yea! Why? Because it was racial abuse especially when he then took a crow bar to my old car (he didnt cause any damage a neighbour stopped him)

Just because you dont hear about it doesnt mean it doesnt happen!

J
xx


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

Lollypop86 said:


> Just because you dont hear about it doesnt mean it doesnt happen!


I think Jonathan's point is fair enough. Most white British people will never experience racism (directed at them) in the UK. Yes, it does happen and yes, it should be taken just as seriously as any other racism, but let's not pretend that a few offensive comments are the same as the constant institutionalised racism that many people have to face on a daily basis.


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## Lollypop86 (Oct 26, 2013)

Spandex said:


> Lollypop86 said:
> 
> 
> > Just because you dont hear about it doesnt mean it doesnt happen!
> ...


I'm not saying they are, but I think that people tend to forget that white people do experience it too is all I'm saying, regardless of the situation it should be treated the same as someone who is asian and experiencing it, if you've said in your interview that she was being racist towards you then regardless of the outcome of your own case they should be dealing with the racial remarks separately and should have asked you if you wanted it investigated surely?

J
xx


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

Lollypop86 said:


> I'm not saying they are, but I think that people tend to forget that white people do experience it too is all I'm saying, regardless of the situation it should be treated the same as someone who is asian and experiencing it, if you've said in your interview that she was being racist towards you then regardless of the outcome of your own case they should be dealing with the racial remarks separately and should have asked you if you wanted it investigated surely?
> 
> J
> xx


Well, you were saying that white British people experience racism a lot, and I think that's not really true. The vast majority of white British people will never experience it, but the vast majority of non-whites will. Hence the OPs point.

According to the OP they did ask him if he wanted to make a complaint and he said no. Which is why we're saying it may seem odd if he now (after being charged) goes back and changes his mind about making the complaint.


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## jonathanhaslam (Jun 30, 2013)

Hi all,

I am still sitting on this green piece of paper "Traffic Offence Report / Notice of Intended Prosecution (NIP) Offence Verbal", waiting to see if I will be offered the course, points or summons.

It was given to me by the police on 1st August, still not heard anything yet.
It does say on the back "DO NOT DO ANYTHING UNTIL YOU RECEIVE FURTHER WRITTEN INSTRUCTION FROM GREATER MANCHESTER POLICE"

I read somewhere that for a Notice of Intended Prosecution to be valid it has to be served within 14 days of the offence, the compaint made by the woman happened on the 16th July. So thats 15 or 16 days depending on how you count.
Is there any ground for me to get this ticket nulled?

Interestingly the offence date on the ticket has been incorrectly filled in as 16th JUNE, but from what I have read minor mistakes on a ticket dont make it invalid.

The offence code has been put down as 576 - not sure what that code is. It doesnt match any of the careless driving codes on
https://www.gov.uk/penalty-points-endor ... lty-points


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## igotone (Mar 10, 2010)

An NIP has to be served within 14 days of the offence or they cannot prosecute you for the offence.

In practice , an NIP is deemed served within time if it is posted in such time that you would normally receive it within 14 days taking into account the usual vagaries of the postal service. In other words if it was posted 3 days before the time limit but you didn't receive it in time, it would be deemed served as the police can't be held responsible for the shortcomings of the postal service. On the either hand if they posted it the day before the time limit and you didn't receive it then you'd be well advised to contest it as I doubt a court would consider it served in proper time.

Service can be by first class post, by hand or in some circumstances, by recorded delivery. Delivery is usually by hand when the police are struggling to meet the time limit.


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## jonathanhaslam (Jun 30, 2013)

igotone said:


> An NIP has to be served within 14 days of the offence or they cannot prosecute you for the offence.
> 
> In practice , an NIP is deemed served within time if it is posted in such time that you would normally receive it within 14 days taking into account the usual vagaries of the postal service. In other words if it was posted 3 days before the time limit but you didn't receive it in time, it would be deemed served as the police can't be held responsible for the shortcomings of the postal service. On the either hand if they posted it the day before the time limit and you didn't receive it then you'd be well advised to contest it as I doubt a court would consider it served in proper time.
> 
> Service can be by first class post, by hand or in some circumstances, by recorded delivery. Delivery is usually by hand when the police are struggling to meet the time limit.


Is it 14 days from the time of the acutally event, or 14 days from the time they first sent me a letter to come to police station, or 14 days from the day i went to interview?
It was hand delivered, on the 15th/16th day after the actual event...

Gonna speak to a solitor who specialises in driving offenses later today, just to see what they say.
Im told the court fees could be around £600ish, if I knew for sure i would win, i would pay. Yes its 4x more than max price of a course, but its a matter of principle, I maintain I did nothing that any other prudent driver would not have done. Sigh


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

It's 14 days from the day of the offence. What date was the NIP issued on?

As for fighting it, I'm still dubious you have a case. Your opinion of what other 'prudent drivers' would do isn't really relevant - I'm sure most 'prudent' drivers would happily do 75 on a clear dry motorway, but it's still illegal and can still be prosecuted.

You drove on the pavement, which is illegal. The fact that many other people also illegally drive on that bit of pavement isn't likely to go down well as a defence. Neither is saying "I broke the law very carefully because I could clearly see the unrestrained child near my car" likely to do you any favours.


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## igotone (Mar 10, 2010)

The only exception to the 14 day NIP rule is if the police can show that by exercising all due diligence they couldn't have served it within the required time or you somehow contributed to the delay by your own behaviour. The NIP can be administered verbally by a police officer at the time of the offence, but it's become pretty much universal practice to follow it up with a written NIP anyway.

If the police were out of time with the NIP, then fair enough - you should be home and dry. I have to say though, that you're being offered good alternatives to going to court, and you're beginning to sound like someone trying to wriggle off the hook at any price. I think most of us would accept we were in the wrong and move on.


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## SBL (May 9, 2014)

Is the car in your name? Is it addressed correctly?
I enquired about dates once as I had one arrive way outside of the time limit. (Simple speeding offence from a camera)
It was still valid as I have a company car and the notification originally went to the hire company, followed by my head office then eventually to me.


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## igotone (Mar 10, 2010)

SBL said:


> Is the car in your name? Is it addressed correctly?
> I enquired about dates once as I had one arrive way outside of the time limit. (Simple speeding offence from a camera)
> It was still valid as I have a company car and the notification originally went to the hire company, followed by my head office then eventually to me.


Yep - that's a common cause of late NIPs


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## Hilly10 (Feb 4, 2004)

The OP said that the date is wrong on the ticket, if so its null and void end of. My mate is a serving policeman when his wife got a ticket for speeding they put the name wrong of the road their van was parked between. Ticket was null and void :wink:


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## igotone (Mar 10, 2010)

Hilly10 said:


> The OP said that the date is wrong on the ticket, if so its null and void end of. My mate is a serving policeman when his wife got a ticket for speeding they put the name wrong of the road their van was parked between. Ticket was null and void :wink:


Not necessarily so. Remember the FP ticket is a conditional offer and doesn't necessarily represent the evidence which will be offered if it is contested at court. A mistaken date is neither here nor there and is easily explained.

In your mate's case where they've actually got the name of the road wrong is a different matter - the location of the offence is the crux of the whole matter so it was probably felt prudent to drop it in view of such a highly significant error which tainted the whole of the evidence.


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## YSA107 (May 23, 2014)

If you were interviewed about an offence under caution you would have been given a verbal notice of intended prosecution at the end of it. I don't see why you would receive a written NIP as they already know who you are and have dealt with the offence. The notice you have will probably be a T.O.R-Traffic Offence Report and NOT a N.IP. Once given one of them, there is 6 months to deal with the offence. 
Quite a few forces issue T.O.R's now rather than fixed penalty notices.


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## jonathanhaslam (Jun 30, 2013)

Spoken to a traffic offense specialist lawyer, and they said the written green NIP, its only a followup to the original letter sent to me asking me to attend the interview (and the letter was sent to me within the 14 days), so the 14 day rule doesnt matter in this case.

Nothing's come back yet, just have to wait.

Yes the car is registered in my name, at the address I live at.

If the course comes I will take it. I see your point about the 75miles on motorway. Not trying to worm my way out, just unhappy of the outcome, as the women have it in for me and my family, if it had been anyone else on the pavement it wouldnt have been a issue.
Last week they complained to council, that the shop in general is too loud, and also that our shop extractor fan is too loud. We already have it set to the lowest/quitest legal limit, there are about 6 or 7 settings higher/lounder than what we have it set to now.
By health and safety law if you are cooking with big gas wok cookers, you have to turn on the extractror before turning on the gas. They just keep trying to make it hard for us, yet we have been nothing but amicable towards them.


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