# Speeding/clarification of rules re. speed limit signs please



## rustyintegrale

Hi Guys,

This time a week ago I got stopped by a police officer using a Unipar Speed Ace hand held laser device. He informed me that I was doing 39mph in a 30mph limit and instructed me to turn down a side road for a 'security check' where another officer checked all my details etc.

He asked me if I knew what the speed limit was on the road and I said "No, because there are no limit signs between the roundabout where I joined the road and the point at which I was stopped by your colleague." He said that 'the lampposts should have told me that this was a built up area and according to the Highway Code that means a blanket 30mph limit'. Now this road has no private driveways until a fair distance up the road and I was accelerating away from almost stationary after negotiating a roundabout, so there was no immediate indication to me that this was a residential area and I certainly wasn't counting lampposts!

So considering the fact that there is definitely no speed limit sign (I've checked), is his statement about the lampposts correct? If it is then it's a fair cop and I'll pay the fine and take the points - all the more galling because the officer informed me that the six points I already had on my licence had just been removed after three years.

Somehow I can't help feeling this policeman proceeded with writing the ticket just because my licence was effectively clean. Had the six points still been on there I wonder if he'd have been more lenient?

Cheers

Rich


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## SAJ77

Yes there is a correlation between the speed limit of a road and the spacing between lamp posts Rich......I think if there are street lamps not more than 200 yards apart it is a 30mph limit :?

Saj


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## rustyintegrale

SAJ77 said:


> Yes there is a correlation between the speed limit of a road and the spacing between lamp posts Rich......not sure what it is though :? (Sorry)
> 
> Saj


Yeah, I thought so too. But how are we supposed to calculate the distance between lampposts as well as deal with all the other aspects of driving?!

Cheers

Rich


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## SAJ77

Found this.. (no mention of distance between posts though :? )

30mph Speed Limit 
The 30mph speed limit is predominately used in urban areas (and more recently in many villages) and usually is indicated by the presence of a system of streetlights. The presence of street lights is the way we recognise this speed limit and it is the reason why you do not see, apart from where the limit starts, 30mph speed limit signs. Some believe this to be an odd way of indicating a speed limit, but really it is simple. If there are streetlights and no signs to the contrary a 30mph speed limit is in force.

There are a number of unlit roads where a 30 mph speed limit applies. In these circumstances the traffic authority must place 30 mph repeater signs.

Saj


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## Andywarr

you would have passed a big 30 mph sign when you initially came into that speed zone, there wouldn't be any other signs till you went out of that speed limit zone, bit gay really considering all other speed limits have repeater signs


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## mighTy Tee

Saj is correct, however this always seems a bit strange (read unjust) that 40mph is repeated on lamp posts etc and 30mph, which is a more safety critical speed limit, is not.

In my locality speed limits are all over the place, 40s which should be 30s and 30s which could be 40s or even 50s. Another case of ambiguity to catch out drivers.


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## wul

if there was not a sign somewhere to tell you the speed limit i would definitely contest it.as said how the fook are you meant to determine distances between lamp posts.i can say for definite there is roads that have lamp posts that are 40 and even 50 limits.even the m1 has lamp posts at some parts at some points.another thing if the police are using speed cameras dont they have to erect some sort of sign to warn you?? i would definitely contest this one mate


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## rustyintegrale

wul said:


> if there was not a sign somewhere to tell you the speed limit i would definitely contest it.as said how the fook are you meant to determine distances between lamp posts.i can say for definite there is roads that have lamp posts that are 40 and even 50 limits.even the m1 has lamp posts at some parts at some points.another thing if the police are using speed cameras dont they have to erect some sort of sign to warn you?? i would definitely contest this one mate


I think we need some clarification from a policeman. Where's Mark Davies when you need him or Charlie Deyton for that matter... :lol:

Cheers

Rich


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## Andywarr

talking about a and b roads though, M1 is a motorway and therefore a 70


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## rustyintegrale

I just found this through Google and it would appear that ANYWHERE there are lamp posts in a built-up area the limit is 30 unless repeater signs remind you of otherwise.

http://www.smartdriving.co.uk/Driving/D ... imits.html

Guess I'll just have to take it on the knuckles... :-|

Cheers

Rich


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## SAJ77

wul said:


> if there was not a sign somewhere to tell you the speed limit i would definitely contest it.as said how the fook are you meant to determine distances between lamp posts.i can say for definite there is roads that have lamp posts that are 40 and even 50 limits.even the m1 has lamp posts at some parts at some points.another thing if the police are using speed cameras dont they have to erect some sort of sign to warn you?? i would definitely contest this one mate


Lamposts are irrelevant when it comes to 40mph/50mph roads as these SHOULD have repeater speed limit signs.


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## Mark Davies

The reasoning is simple. In areas where there is a 30mph speed limit in force then the local authority (except in exceptional circumstances) is _obliged_ to provide street lighting. That is because the same safety arguments that dictate the 30mph limit also require proper lighting - one goes with the other. Therefore a simple decision has been made that there is no need to spend countless amounts of money on 30mph repeater signs in urban areas when the presence of street lighting tells you that message already. The exception of course is where lighting is provided in areas where there is a higher limit and therefore repeater signs are put in place to avoid confusion.

The system is clearly explained in the highway code - which is the exact same source where you get your information about *all* road signage - so nobody has any reason not to be aware of it.

So, if you find yourself on a road and are unsure of the speed limit there your first thought should be, is there street lighting? If not then it's possibly an unrestricted road, or with a limit above 30mph. If lights are there then it's probably a 30mph limit. Assume the lower limit and look out for repeater signs. If you see no repeater signs when street lights are not present then it is an unrestricted road. If you see no repeater signs when street lights are present then it is a 30mph limit. And of course, if it is anything else, there will always be repeater signs. You shouldn't need to drive more than 200yds before you have your answer (that's the regulation distance between repeater signs, so you should see at least one by then) so there's no need to count lamp posts.

This is an issue that regularly arises on main arterial roads in city centres that may be two lanes or more in either direction where people regularly assume a 40 or 50mph limit when in fact the limit is still 30mph. I agree, it is something drivers are generally ignorant of and I find myself explaining it frequently. It just goes to demonstarate the generally poor standard of drivers in the UK.


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## Charlie

What he said ^^^^ ;-)

Charlie


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## TT-Newbie

Here's an idea why don't the relevant authorities place signs when you turn onto a new road, etc so it makes it easier to tell what the limit is - would save me having to stop the car, get out, get the tape measure out of the boot, run to the first lamp post, attach the tape measure, run to the second lamp post, measure the distance, run back to the first lamp post, unhook the tape measure, run back to the car, put the tape measure back in the boot, get back in the car, put my seat belt back on, check the mirror, signal, pull away and wave to the cop sitting outside Dunkin' Donuts as I go by.

On a more serious note I thought that Pepipoo had a case recently whereby the accuracy of these hand held detectors was questioned - especially in built up areas?


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## Mark Davies

TT-Newbie said:


> Here's an idea why don't the relevant authorities place signs when you turn onto a new road, etc so it makes it easier to tell what the limit is - would save me having to stop the car, get out, get the tape measure out of the boot, run to the first lamp post, attach the tape measure, run to the second lamp post, measure the distance, run back to the first lamp post, unhook the tape measure, run back to the car, put the tape measure back in the boot, get back in the car, put my seat belt back on, check the mirror, signal, pull away and wave to the cop sitting outside Dunkin' Donuts as I go by.


I assume you are just joking but perhaps missing the point. The law isn't that it's 30mph if the lamp posts are 200 yds apart. It's just coincidence. Where a certain set of road conditions exist the local authority are obliged to do two things; (1) set a 30mph speed limit and (2) provide a street light every 200yds - so one usually comes with the other. There are hundreds of thousands of miles of urban roads in the UK with the standard 30mph limit, and these roads have countless junctions on them. The millions of signs needed to mark these as 30mph every 200 yards would cost an absolute fortune - expenditure that is quite unnecessary if people simply met their obligations as a driver and learnt and understood the highway code.

There is no need to get out of the car and measure anything. If you are on a road with street lights assume it's 30mph. Drive 200yds along the road. If in that distance you've passed a repeater sign then you'll know what the speed limit is. If in that distance you haven't passed a repeater sign you'll still know what the speed limit is - it's 30mph. It's that simple.

(The 200yd requirement covers both sides of the road, so look either side. You should get one on your side of the road within 400yds)


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## Colinthecop

I seem to think that if you're changing from one road to another and the speed limit changes, there must be a change in the speed limit sign, and it must be the correct size shape etc...

That's why a while back a load of people got off from the temporary motorway speed limit signs because they weren't round with a red circle (or whatever they are).

So, regardless of the streetlights, there should be a warning sign telling you you're entering a 30mph.

As above, i'd post on Pepipoo, a lot of solicitors post on there who like to argue with each other as if they're in court. They should have a better idea as to what will stand up in court.


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## TT Ade

If you join a road from a side road and the speed limit is different shouldn't that be indicated by a sign just prior to joining the new road? So if you're on a 30 limit and you come to a junction and their is no sign to indicate a change of speed limit then the speed limit is the same as the road you are leaving?


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## Mark Davies

When you come from a road with, say, a 40mph limit and are entering a road with a 30mph limit then yes, there should be a sign showing the new limit. However, the absence of a sign (say if it has been vandalised or stolen) wouldn't autmatically render the 30mph limit beyond obsolete.

Just imagine a city or town centre that could be many square miles in which there will be an almost blanket-like 30mph limit and leading into which there will be dozens (if not hundreds) of roads. Would one set of 30mph signs missing off just one of those roads make the entire city's 30mph speed limit zone unenforcable? No, of course it wouldn't - and shouldn't.

If however, you happen to have come through that particular road with the missing signs and within a reasonable distance are caught still at the previous higher speed you would have grounds for a defence. But remember, the highway code tells you that where street lights are present but no other indication of a speed limit then the speed limit *will be* 30mph. Therefore if you are a mile within the limit and have perhaps negotiated a number of junctions on the way then a court will decide that you should reasonably have been aware that you were in an urban area controlled by a 30mph limit. So a sign missing or obscured _could_ be a defence, but don't bank on it in all circumstances.

Bear in mind, it's perfectly possible for me to drive the 7 miles from home to where I work right across the city of Manchester without ever seeing a single speed limit sign, quite simply because I never leave roads with 30mph limits - and it would probably be the same for most people living in urban areas. Hence just not having seen a speed sign during your journey wouldn't be considered a viable defence.


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## Colinthecop

Mark Davies said:


> But remember, the highway code tells you that where street lights are present but no other indication of a speed limit then the speed limit *will be* 30mph.


This is what Section 103 of the Highway code has to say about speed limits:

The 30 mph limit applies to all traffic on all roads in England and Wales (only Class C and unclassified roads in Scotland) with street lighting unless signs show otherwise

Although the Highway Code isn't actually the law, it's a guide.


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## TT Ade

Cheers, Mark

Wasn't trying to make a defence for anything, just clarifying in my own mind.


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## les

Rich, I have recently been on a SAC (Speed Awareness course) for doing 38 in a 30 limit in a similar situation to yours. I am not sure but you MAYBE 1MPH outside the criteria to be offered the course. :? However if you are offered it take my advice and take it. The course cost me £60 same as the fine (other areas may charge more) for a 4 hour course which you can attend mornings, afternoons or evenings as you wish. If you take the course you pay the fee, attend and be a good boy and get no points on your license and no further fine. I have to say in all honestly the course is very good and will teach you lots of stuff you probably don't know inc how to tell the speed on the road you are driving on. Good luck and I hope they offer (and you accept) a SAC course. 
Below is a link to a good forum about such that maybe of interest to you and others.

http://www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/


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## fut1a

If i was to pay that much attention to street lamps and not my driving, then i am sure the cops would love to get me for driving without due care and attention :?


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## Mark Davies

fut1a said:


> If i was to pay that much attention to street lamps and not my driving, then i am sure the cops would love to get me for driving without due care and attention :?


Really? Just how much attention do you think it needs to have a quick glance at the lamp posts for a couple of hundred yards until you know what speed limit you're in? Any more than perhaps watching the pedestrians on the pavements, or the cars pulling up at the junctions on the side roads? And you wouldn't be watching any of those things then, would you?

If you think driving with due care and attention involves nothing but looking at what is directly in front of your bonnet then yes, I think the cops would like to have a word with you. Checking these things _*is*_ your driving. But in reality you know damn well there's no difficulty in spending a few seconds just glancing at the lamp posts as you pass. All this amounts to is yet another stupid, feeble excuse not to comply with the law.


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## Kell

I think what people are getting hung up on is the insistance (by law) that the lamposts are 200 yards apart. It seems to insinuate that if the lamposts were, say 250 yards apart, then the speed limit could be different. As this is not the case, the simple fact that they're there should indicate that the road is 30 - unless stated otherwise. I think it might have to be a grin and bear it one Rich.


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## rustyintegrale

Kell said:


> I think it might have to be a grin and bear it one Rich.


Already done it mate. I broke the speed limit and I got caught. 

Cheers

Rich


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## les

rustyintegrale said:


> Kell said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think it might have to be a grin and bear it one Rich.
> 
> 
> 
> Already done it mate. I broke the speed limit and I got caught.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Rich
Click to expand...

 Don't give up yet Rich you may still be offered a SAC.


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## DAZTTC

les said:


> Rich, I have recently been on a SAC (Speed Awareness course) for doing 38 in a 30 limit in a similar situation to yours. I am not sure but you MAYBE 1MPH outside the criteria to be offered the course. :? However if you are offered it take my advice and take it. The course cost me £60 same as the fine (other areas may charge more) for a 4 hour course which you can attend mornings, afternoons or evenings as you wish. If you take the course you pay the fee, attend and be a good boy and get no points on your license and no further fine. I have to say in all honestly the course is very good and will teach you lots of stuff you probably don't know inc how to tell the speed on the road you are driving on. Good luck and I hope they offer (and you accept) a SAC course.
> Below is a link to a good forum about such that maybe of interest to you and others.
> 
> http://www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/


Les is right i did the same course a week later i hope you get the offer of one Rich.

DAZ


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## les

DAZTTC said:


> les said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rich, I have recently been on a SAC (Speed Awareness course) for doing 38 in a 30 limit in a similar situation to yours. I am not sure but you MAYBE 1MPH outside the criteria to be offered the course. :? However if you are offered it take my advice and take it. The course cost me £60 same as the fine (other areas may charge more) for a 4 hour course which you can attend mornings, afternoons or evenings as you wish. If you take the course you pay the fee, attend and be a good boy and get no points on your license and no further fine. I have to say in all honestly the course is very good and will teach you lots of stuff you probably don't know inc how to tell the speed on the road you are driving on. Good luck and I hope they offer (and you accept) a SAC course.
> Below is a link to a good forum about such that maybe of interest to you and others.
> 
> http://www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/
> 
> 
> 
> Les is right i did the same course a week later i hope you get the offer of one Rich.
> 
> DAZ
Click to expand...

 I was also on 9 points (all for speeding) so it was a licence saver


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## rustyintegrale

les said:


> DAZTTC said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> les said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rich, I have recently been on a SAC (Speed Awareness course) for doing 38 in a 30 limit in a similar situation to yours. I am not sure but you MAYBE 1MPH outside the criteria to be offered the course. :? However if you are offered it take my advice and take it. The course cost me £60 same as the fine (other areas may charge more) for a 4 hour course which you can attend mornings, afternoons or evenings as you wish. If you take the course you pay the fee, attend and be a good boy and get no points on your license and no further fine. I have to say in all honestly the course is very good and will teach you lots of stuff you probably don't know inc how to tell the speed on the road you are driving on. Good luck and I hope they offer (and you accept) a SAC course.
> Below is a link to a good forum about such that maybe of interest to you and others.
> 
> http://www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/
> 
> 
> 
> Les is right i did the same course a week later i hope you get the offer of one Rich.
> 
> DAZ
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I was also on 9 points (all for speeding) so it was a licence saver
Click to expand...

Thanks guys, but I think they would've offered that by now. I think the fact that my licence was clean meant the offer of a SAC wasn't forthcoming... :wink:

It's all paid and settled now so another three years with an endorsed licence... :?

Cheers

Rich


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## Bikerz

I got 3 points the day I got my full licence for doing just 33mph in a 30 (aparently the 10% went out in the year 2000) :evil: Passed test at 3pm caught at 10pm! :lol:


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## les

rustyintegrale said:


> Thanks guys, but I think they would've offered that by now. I think the fact that my licence was clean meant the offer of a SAC wasn't forthcoming... :wink:
> 
> It's all paid and settled now so another three years with an endorsed licence... :?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Rich


 Mine came through a few weeks later and given there's problems with the post due to the weather and Christmas surely there's time yet. :?


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## Dash

Bikerz said:


> I got 3 points the day I got my full licence for doing just 33mph in a 30 (aparently the 10% went out in the year 2000) :evil: Passed test at 3pm caught at 10pm! :lol:


Unfortunate!

33 in a 30, really, who cares? Were you tugged, or caught by a camera?


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## Kell

I think you're only offered the course when it's up to 36/37 mph. I know my missus got offered it when she was done at 36 and my Dad didn't when he got done at 37. Or it may have been 35/36.


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## les

Kell said:


> I think you're only offered the course when it's up to 36/37 mph. I know my missus got offered it when she was done at 36 and my Dad didn't when he got done at 37. Or it may have been 35/36.


 I was doing 38 and got offered the SAC :roll:


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## TT Ade

les said:


> Kell said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think you're only offered the course when it's up to 36/37 mph. I know my missus got offered it when she was done at 36 and my Dad didn't when he got done at 37. Or it may have been 35/36.
> 
> 
> 
> I was doing 38 and got offered the SAC :roll:
Click to expand...

Same speed here, 38mph and got a SAC.

Think it varies by county too.


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## les

TT Ade said:


> les said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kell said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think you're only offered the course when it's up to 36/37 mph. I know my missus got offered it when she was done at 36 and my Dad didn't when he got done at 37. Or it may have been 35/36.
> 
> 
> 
> I was doing 38 and got offered the SAC :roll:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Same speed here, 38mph and got a SAC.
> 
> Think it varies by county too.
Click to expand...

 Well there is a formula for working it out 10% of the speed limit plus 5mph over that limit. So 30mph limit x 10% = 33mph + 5mph = 38mph which I believe is commonly adopted over the country. The link I gave explains in more detail and what to do if your 38mph or under and are NOT offered a SAC.


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## SimonQS

If the road in question has a system of street lighting, with no speed limit repeater signs, the limit is usually 30mph. The Traffic Authority is not permitted to place 30mph repeater signs on these roads. The system of street lighting in an area should be sufficient evidence of 30mph limit.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/HomeAndComm ... G_10028438 
:wink:


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## DAZTTC

Mine was 38 mph but i had a clean licence.

DAZ


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## les

DAZTTC said:


> Mine was 38 mph but i had a clean licence.
> 
> DAZ


and I was on 9 points


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## DAZTTC

les said:


> DAZTTC said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mine was 38 mph but i had a clean licence.
> 
> DAZ
> 
> 
> 
> and I was on 9 points
Click to expand...

Your a lucky boy then 

DAZ


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## les

DAZTTC said:


> les said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DAZTTC said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mine was 38 mph but i had a clean licence.
> 
> DAZ
> 
> 
> 
> and I was on 9 points
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Your a lucky boy then
> 
> DAZ
Click to expand...

Maybe but that's the formula. Some would say I was unlucky in many ways to get done at all but hey oh. :?


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## DAZTTC

I wasn't even enjoying the TT i was in me work van :roll:

DAZ


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## skiwhiz

les said:


> Kell said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think you're only offered the course when it's up to 36/37 mph. I know my missus got offered it when she was done at 36 and my Dad didn't when he got done at 37. Or it may have been 35/36.
> 
> 
> 
> I was doing 38 and got offered the SAC :roll:
Click to expand...

Its hit and miss and I believe requires the officer to put you down for the course rather than a fine and points, or thats what I was told when I was done 2 yrs ago and as we were piloting the course I wrote and appealed to see if I could do the course and hit an admin brickwall.
The % rule is discretionary best unless things have changed, I also had a clean licence and was within the % + 5mph guide.

pot luck seems to rule


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## les

skiwhiz said:


> les said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kell said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think you're only offered the course when it's up to 36/37 mph. I know my missus got offered it when she was done at 36 and my Dad didn't when he got done at 37. Or it may have been 35/36.
> 
> 
> 
> I was doing 38 and got offered the SAC :roll:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Its hit and miss and I believe requires the officer to put you down for the course rather than a fine and points, or thats what I was told when I was done 2 yrs ago and as we were piloting the course I wrote and appealed to see if I could do the course and hit an admin brickwall.
> The % rule is discretionary best unless things have changed, I also had a clean licence and was within the % + 5mph guide.
> 
> pot luck seems to rule
Click to expand...

 Nothing to do with the officer doing you as far as I am aware he is simply reporting the offence. I'm told is not discretionary and that if you are within the guideline MPH you should be offered the SAC. The forum I gave the link to is very good, they have police and even a judge who write and give advice on there.


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## fut1a

Mark Davies said:


> fut1a said:
> 
> 
> 
> If i was to pay that much attention to street lamps and not my driving, then i am sure the cops would love to get me for driving without due care and attention :?
> 
> 
> 
> Really? Just how much attention do you think it needs to have a quick glance at the lamp posts for a couple of hundred yards until you know what speed limit you're in? Any more than perhaps watching the pedestrians on the pavements, or the cars pulling up at the junctions on the side roads? And you wouldn't be watching any of those things then, would you?
> 
> If you think driving with due care and attention involves nothing but looking at what is directly in front of your bonnet then yes, I think the cops would like to have a word with you. Checking these things _*is*_ your driving. But in reality you know damn well there's no difficulty in spending a few seconds just glancing at the lamp posts as you pass. All this amounts to is yet another stupid, feeble excuse not to comply with the law.
Click to expand...

i wish i could spend the time looking as far as my bonnet, Since having a speeding ticket for doing a few miles over the 30 limit, i spend most of my time watching my speedo :wink:

Stupid feeble excuse not to comply with the law. Have you not heard...............the LAW is an ASS :wink:


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## j8keith

Taxation strikes again. :x :x :x


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## Spandex

j8keith said:


> Taxation strikes again. :x :x :x


Huh?


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## poacher99

No, you are entirely wrong.

I have just been coerced into a Speed awareness Course for doing 34 in a 30 MPH zone.

The loophole about the lamposts being no more than 194 feet apart (which was the loophole used) has been closed. The only requirement now is that there is a 'system of street lighting' which in practice amounts to a row of two street lights at any distance apart. From such slender clues you are now expected to deduce its a 30 MPH zone.


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## jampott

poacher99 said:


> No, you are entirely wrong.
> 
> I have just been coerced into a Speed awareness Course for doing 34 in a 30 MPH zone.
> 
> The loophole about the lamposts being no more than 194 feet apart (which was the loophole used) has been closed. The only requirement now is that there is a 'system of street lighting' which in practice amounts to a row of two street lights at any distance apart. From such slender clues you are now expected to deduce its a 30 MPH zone.


I understand your point, but you're still looking at it from the wrong angle. It is a 30 mph road UNLESS THERE ARE INDICATIONS TO THE CONTRARY.

You don't have to deduce anything. If there's 40mph, 50mph, 60mph or National Speed Limit repeaters, you can then apply a bit more right-foot. Otherwise, its a 30mph road.

The total absence of any speed signage is hardly a "slender clue".


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## Mark Davies

This isn't rocket science - I'm really don't know why some people are finding this hard to understand. It really is as simple and as straightforward as explained above.

The _presence_ of street lighting (regardless of the distances between them) coupled with the _absence_ of any repeaters telling you of any other speed (which would be no more than 200m apart if present) make it clear it is a 30mph road. Any idiot can drive down a road and notice there's street lights there, and within 400m you will have seen a repeater if they are there, even if you're not looking too carefully - so within that distance with virtually no effort at all you've been given all the information you need to correctly determine what the speed limit is. So, find yourself on a road that has lights but you're not sure of the limit then drive at 30mph for about 400m. If in that distance you've not seen a sign telling you it's 20, 40 or 50mph then you know it's 30mph. Now just what is so difficult about that?

It just seems to me there are some people who are looking for any excuse whatsoever to justify breaking a speed limit, however lame that excuse may be. Either that or there are some truly thick motorists on our roads.


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## Spandex

I think the clearest way to look at it is that if you can't see a speed limit posted then it's either a 30mph zone, or it's a motorway. If you can't tell the difference between these two, then you have bigger problems.

If you're not sure what the limit is, then either drive at 30mph till you are sure, or go faster and accept that you may get nicked. Either way, it's your responsibility, not the police or local councils.


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