# Rioting



## SalsredTT (Jan 8, 2011)

Can't believe what I am watching here and it seems to have spread to Birmingham city centre now.


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## jonah (Aug 17, 2002)

I know mindless idiots content on looting and causing damage! Shoot the lot of them!!

---
- Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

free shopping sal


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## SalsredTT (Jan 8, 2011)

No ta Gaz - I wouldn't set foot out there.

Fecking disgrace they are - the whole world is watching us and our morons doing what they do best.


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## mighTy Tee (Jul 10, 2002)

This time next year we can look forward to Olympic Rioting.....

I wonder if any innocent people have lost their lives in the blazing building? Tonight is a f^^king disgrace, more reminiscent of Africa than England


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## DavidM (Jul 13, 2011)

Drastic measures need to be taken, there can never be any excuse for this sort of behaviour.
Really feel for those affected and the emergency services.


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## SalsredTT (Jan 8, 2011)

My friends disabled daughter is in Croydon tonight in a bingo hall - they have locked themselves in for safety.


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## bluush (Feb 24, 2010)

sorry, but they need to go in hard and sort these f*ckers out, they think its a bloody sport now.

nick every one of them and make sure the punishment hurts, if we show weakness to the way these little sh*tes are operating we will be paying for it for the next decade.

pisses me off big time "ooooh we have it hard, theres nothing to do, its not fair.... lets burn, steal and riot.

vermin the lot of them.


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## SalsredTT (Jan 8, 2011)

And oh golly gosh - how BRAVE and BIG they all are with their hoodies up over their faces.


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## YoungOldUn (Apr 12, 2011)

bluush said:


> sorry, but they need to go in hard and sort these f*ckers out, they think its a bloody sport now.
> 
> nick every one of them and make sure the punishment hurts, if we show weakness to the way these little sh*tes are operating we will be paying for it for the next decade.
> 
> ...


I agree but don't think there is much chance of it happening.

I remember when I was about 10 years old (1958 ish) overhearing my older brother and some of his mates discussing going to the Isle of Man. Amongst his mates where a couple of teddy boys and one of them stated that he would not be taking his razor or causing any trouble because the Isle of Man still had corporal punishment and still used the birch.

This has always stuck with me and IMO if the 'Birch' was in use in this country I am sure that a lot of the yobbish behaviour would be curtailed.


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## bluush (Feb 24, 2010)

dont matter what it is as long as it is PUNISHMENT, if it dont hurt it definatly wont work.

b*llocks to all these sentences that dont mean what they say, and any time spent should be hard labour not sitting in yer cell with your tabs and your WII/XBOX/Pamalahand. Have the first lot banged up building the cells for the next set.

sorry, not feeling very liberal and cuddly tonight, more of a hangem high state of mind after seeing these little b*stards that are acting this way.


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## Graham Grant (Jul 23, 2011)

[bThe only answer is to get the army out on the street to deal with these little f=ckers. Where are our boys in blue, issuing speeding tickets now doubt. What a country we live in. I suppose it will not be long before some bleeding heart say's it's all the fault [of the Government and thoses poor little thugs need a big hug.b]


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

free shopping was a flippant comment tbh. they moan that they are treated like 2nd hand citizens & yet live up to the stereotype young black youth of present. live like shit treat them like shit i say


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## Jae-TT (Jul 22, 2011)

What is the reason for all this destruction? Protest or something? :S


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## Wallsendmag (Feb 12, 2004)

Graham Grant said:


> [bThe only answer is to get the army out on the street to deal with these little f=ckers. Where are our boys in blue, issuing speeding tickets now doubt. What a country we live in. I suppose it will not be long before some bleeding heart say's it's all the fault [of the Government and thoses poor little thugs need a big hug.b]


Do we have any forces in the country anymore ?


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## Graham Grant (Jul 23, 2011)

I hope so, because if we don't, you had better start praying.


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## gcp (Aug 8, 2002)

Bought first sofa from that store in Croydon.

Sad times...


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## Lovinit (Mar 5, 2011)

i'm currently working in Maida vale... there area lot of sirens going off.. apparently Kilburn High Rd (5mins away) is gearing up and staples corner too... Bayswater 5 MIns (away)which is the other side of me is also jst started... i'm slowly being penned in it seems!

One of my drivers (taxi) says when he dropped off a fair in harlesden, apparently riot police are on stand by...

I still gotta get home... :?

James


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## Lovinit (Mar 5, 2011)

Def need the army... also to mark the looters, they need to spray the gits with water cannons filled with heavey duty dye...

then in a couple of days time go looking for em as it wont wash off...then get medieval on them...

James


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## Graham Grant (Jul 23, 2011)

Lovinit said:


> Def need the army... also to mark the looters, they need to spray the gits with water cannons filled with heavey duty dye...
> 
> then in a couple of days time go looking for em as it wont wash off...then get medieval on them...
> 
> James


Good idea, you get my vote.


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## YoungOldUn (Apr 12, 2011)

Lovinit said:


> i'm currently working in Maida vale... there area lot of sirens going off.. apparently Kilburn High Rd (5mins away) is gearing up and staples corner too... Bayswater 5 MIns (away)which is the other side of me is also jst started... i'm slowly being penned in it seems!
> 
> One of my drivers (taxi) says when he dropped off a fair in harlesden, apparently riot police are on stand by...
> 
> ...


You might be better sitting tight rather that going anywhere near the yobs. Hope everything works out ok for you,


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## alun (Aug 2, 2010)

what they need to do. is turn the cameras off. then send in the police and army with battons and plastic bullets..


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## CapoGT (Apr 30, 2010)

crazy...i went to see my daughter who is staying with my mum and she was in tears seeing the news and hearing the sirens off outside. Then on the way back home saw a bunch of teens getting ready to head out and loot. bandanas hanging round their necks...like someone said above its a sport.

Army needs to move in...NOW!


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## Lovinit (Mar 5, 2011)

Sitting very tight! Bit worried to say he least!


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## YoungOldUn (Apr 12, 2011)

Lovinit said:
 

> Sitting very tight! Bit worried to say he least!


Think you are doing the right thing. We just need a downpour to get them all off the streets.


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## bluush (Feb 24, 2010)

you are right about the rain, i was praying for a massive downpour on Sun night after i heard about Saturdays events. If it pissed of rain they would be gone, same as this wouldnt happen anytime from October to March.

its wierd how its that big a deal about how hard the Yoof have been put down and they feel this is there only way to make their voices heard when you know if it was cold or wet they would be tucked up at home.


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## meesterbond (May 4, 2011)

My feelings are that this has got nothing to do with "disaffected youths" that Ken Livingstone alleges, blaming the fact that young people don't have "a sense of belonging or community". What a load of rubbish, this may have allegedly begun after a peaceful vigil outside the police staation in Tottenham by friends/family/associates of Mr Duggan ...... but what we're witnessing now is senseless, mindless thuggery with mob rule. These are just looters hiding behind pretty platitudes, there's no reason for this, but plenty of excuses. Send in the sharp shooters.


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## Daz (Jul 16, 2002)

YoungOldUn said:


> Lovinit said:
> 
> 
> > Sitting very tight! Bit worried to say he least!
> ...


Exactly right, the rain washes the shit off the streets.


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## STTink (Jun 28, 2011)

Just the way i see it.


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## Dash (Oct 5, 2008)

It's disgusting - the real question is how did we allow our society to produce such a large number of young criminals.


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## STTink (Jun 28, 2011)

Dash said:


> It's disgusting - the real question is how did we allow our society to produce such a large number of young criminals.


You and I did. We supported the young, single ,jobless mothers in having large broods of fatherless youths whose only real family become their social groups. They see what they can get away with, constantly testing the fences of morality and continue to push. We as the middle class paid for this and continue to do so.


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## STTink (Jun 28, 2011)




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## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

It's not rocket science...

Immediate action...
Curfew.
Block the streets.
Send in the army.
Restore law and order.

Subsequent action...
Set up an enquiry to find out what drives these people.
Talk to the community, listen to the community.
Be prepared to make change.
Restore community pride.
Reward good behaviour.
Develop community spirit.


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## fut1a (Dec 28, 2006)

They are just missunderstood and need a big hug, all this talk of them being yobs will hurt their feelings. We are all to blame for not giving their teenage parents bigger and better houses, and more benefits so they can buy bigger flat screen TV's and smoke and drink more.

My view........get a big f**k**g stick and give them the only message that they will understand. As long as the punishment and time never fit the crime, we will carry on seeing things like this.


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## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

fut1a said:


> They are just missunderstood and need a big hug, all this talk of them being yobs will hurt their feelings.


I'm not advocating that at all. Just to be 'absolutely clear' (he says in best Theresa May voice). The thugs that did this should be punished. No question.

However if it is to be avoided in the future then the reasons for it happening in the first place have to be discovered and where possible steps taken to put them right. It's all very well wielding a big stick but history is littered with examples of exactly this type of oppression. If we are to learn by our mistakes then we should take a lesson from history.

The UK isn't Nazi Germany.


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## STTink (Jun 28, 2011)

rustyintegrale said:


> fut1a said:
> 
> 
> > They are just missunderstood and need a big hug, all this talk of them being yobs will hurt their feelings.
> ...


Thing is, these kids don't have any compassion. Their pride is all about FTW. Being a hero to their mates because they mugged someone and put it on youtube.Cuddling their egos shows no downside to what's happened here.No punishment. There's no room in the prisons to house them so it's fines they'll never pay or community service they won't turn up to. Suspended sentences that can't be enforced until something really severe is done by one of these idiots to the point where they have to release another criminal early to give one of these idiots a tatse of prison life. And lets be honest here, prison in the UK isnt prison in the middle east.There's no money for new prisons, and once processed those caught if they don't already have a criminal record will end up with one meaning they're not going to be able to find one of those rare jobs that exists for their age group.

So, talking about it down the road might be an option, but right now a shock to the system is what's needed.


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## fut1a (Dec 28, 2006)

rustyintegrale said:


> fut1a said:
> 
> 
> > They are just missunderstood and need a big hug, all this talk of them being yobs will hurt their feelings.
> ...


My post was not a comment on your post. Just in case you think it was.


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## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

fut1a said:


> rustyintegrale said:
> 
> 
> > fut1a said:
> ...


Yeah I did, but I still had to make my position clear... :lol:


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## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

These are the type of people we're dealing with here...






Now I'd have that guy's nuts off... :evil:


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## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

And the flip side...

http://www.twitvid.com/4JTZH


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## Hilly10 (Feb 4, 2004)

I have an easy solution for these mindless young thieving scum. We build a camp up in the wilds of Scotland. We let the ARMY run it with basic rations, make them live in tents and give the Army officers strict instructions, to make life as tough and unpleasant as possible. There will be no intervention from do gooders and no set sentence, they will have to earn their freedom. Come on Cameron show us your backbone and set it up. The other thing is it would be relatively cheap by prison comparisons


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## STTink (Jun 28, 2011)

Hilly10 said:


> I have an easy solution for these mindless young thieving scum. We build a camp up in the wilds of Scotland. We let the ARMY run it with basic rations, make them live in tents and give the Army officers strict instructions, to make life as tough and unpleasant as possible. There will be no intervention from do gooders and no set sentence, they will have to earn their freedom. Come on Cameron show us your backbone and set it up. The other thing is it would be relatively cheap by prison comparisons


You mean forced conscription?


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## Dash (Oct 5, 2008)

Force them to join the army and walk in front of patrols in the middle east!

To be honest, I can understand the anger and hatred towards these looters. I have zero sympathy for them. But none of these heavy-handed tactics will address the underlying issues.

I've always said, civilisation is all about education. It should be the first priority of any civilisation, ensuring the highest level of education for everybody. From that everything else works itself out - this though will take generations to resolve, which is a time-scale most governments care little about.


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## STTink (Jun 28, 2011)

Dash said:


> Force them to join the army and walk in front of patrols in the middle east!
> 
> To be honest, I can understand the anger and hatred towards these looters. I have zero sympathy for them. But none of these heavy-handed tactics will address the underlying issues.
> 
> I've always said, civilisation is all about education. It should be the first priority of any civilisation, ensuring the highest level of education for everybody. From that everything else works itself out - this though will take generations to resolve, which is a time-scale most governments care little about.


There lays another problem Dash. The youths we're discussing arent interested in education. Most of the world looks at the ability to get a good education not only an honour, but hold it and it's teachers in high regard. Now look at our education system, just ask a teacher.


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

my ten point plan :lol: 
1, get this crap under control and now! army, curfew and big bloody batons like the spanish use.
2, examine all of the cctv footage and arrest all of them once found and hold them all in a detention centre (once all of the illegals are kicked back to own countries that is)
3, give the police real powers again like in the 70's and public corporal punishment and humiliation.
4, 18-21 three years in the army unless an education is of a high enough grade to be useful to society.
5, stop all child benefit to anyone having a second child (you want it pay for it biatch)
6 stop all benefits to unemployed males that do not take a job within one month. (starve suckers)
7, hold all of the parents of these yobs accountable until the age of 18 when the army gets to make men of them.
8, bring back borstal and make them hurt. (good film scum)  
9, shoot cameron for being a to55er and not sorting this out quicker.
10, get back to work gazz so you can continue to pay taxes for these yobs to have a free life.

else else fails.......shoot them


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## Hilly10 (Feb 4, 2004)

STTink said:


> Hilly10 said:
> 
> 
> > I have an easy solution for these mindless young thieving scum. We build a camp up in the wilds of Scotland. We let the ARMY run it with basic rations, make them live in tents and give the Army officers strict instructions, to make life as tough and unpleasant as possible. There will be no intervention from do gooders and no set sentence, they will have to earn their freedom. Come on Cameron show us your backbone and set it up. The other thing is it would be relatively cheap by prison comparisons
> ...


What I have in mind. Conscription would be a walk in the park


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## STTink (Jun 28, 2011)

Hilly10 said:


> STTink said:
> 
> 
> > Hilly10 said:
> ...


It's a nice thought, but they're going to be voters. :lol:


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## SalsredTT (Jan 8, 2011)

Just been out for something to eat and there is an incredible police presence here. Loads on foot, on bikes and the local ANPR BMW just gone screaming up the hill so fast I was convinced he wasn't going to make it round the top. Also a number of the shops, namely phone shops are closed ............


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## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

SalsredTT said:


> Just been out for something to eat and there is an incredible police presence here. Loads on foot, on bikes and the local ANPR BMW just gone screaming up the hill so fast I was convinced he wasn't going to make it round the top. Also a number of the shops, namely phone shops are closed ............


Donut shop? :lol:

That's where they like to congregate innit?


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## YoungOldUn (Apr 12, 2011)

Hilly10 said:


> I have an easy solution for these mindless young thieving scum. We build a camp up in the wilds of Scotland. We let the ARMY run it with basic rations, make them live in tents and give the Army officers strict instructions, to make life as tough and unpleasant as possible. There will be no intervention from do gooders and no set sentence, they will have to earn their freedom. Come on Cameron show us your backbone and set it up. The other thing is it would be relatively cheap by prison comparisons


Instead of the wilds of Scotland I think a camp for all of the scum should be built on Gruinard Island, where anthax was tested as a weapon and is still active. Let the bastards try and beat that into submission.


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## Colinthecop (Jan 2, 2008)

Bugger off, you're not dumping *your* criminals on us. :x


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## TTCool (Feb 7, 2005)

The All Blacks? Oh no that's a rugby team.


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## STTink (Jun 28, 2011)

Colinthecop said:


> Bugger off, you're not dumping *your* criminals on us. :x


You wait around all day then one turns up. :wink:


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## Graham Grant (Jul 23, 2011)

YoungOldUn said:


> Hilly10 said:
> 
> 
> > I have an easy solution for these mindless young thieving scum. We build a camp up in the wilds of Scotland. We let the ARMY run it with basic rations, make them live in tents and give the Army officers strict instructions, to make life as tough and unpleasant as possible. There will be no intervention from do gooders and no set sentence, they will have to earn their freedom. Come on Cameron show us your backbone and set it up. The other thing is it would be relatively cheap by prison comparisons
> ...


I think you will need something a little stronger than Anthrax, those little b*stards will thrive on it.


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## phope (Mar 26, 2006)

Hilly10 said:


> I have an easy solution for these mindless young thieving scum. We build a camp up in the wilds of Scotland. We let the ARMY run it with basic rations, make them live in tents and give the Army officers strict instructions, to make life as tough and unpleasant as possible. There will be no intervention from do gooders and no set sentence, they will have to earn their freedom. Come on Cameron show us your backbone and set it up. The other thing is it would be relatively cheap by prison comparisons


How about some signs telling them as they enter "work sets you free" or similar?


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## meesterbond (May 4, 2011)

If the "yoofs" are motivated by hunting in packs and "outdoing" each other, send them to Afghanistan, or Mali and let them run through minefields ...... if you get to the other side you get a Big Mac and the chance to run back the other way ..... thus giving them incentive to work for reward - breeding self esteem as well as allowing them to show off to their mates. As opposed to just conforming to "law" as the rest of the human race with horizontally opposed thumbs and the ability to use cutlery has to! I did hear a rumour that an entire high street got looted and attacked, apart from Waterstones, unsurprising as they're not booky types perhaps? ..... as for the lot that went on the initial rampage in Tottenham and tore through a Body shop, Comet and specsavers, look for the scum wearing nice varifocals using a laptop and smelling of lemongrass, i bet you a pound to a penny he/she's guilty  B'stards.


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

I was planning to go shopping, but why bother? Rioting is cheaper these days. Anyone following me to Ann Summers tonight?  :lol:


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## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

phope said:


> Hilly10 said:
> 
> 
> > I have an easy solution for these mindless young thieving scum. We build a camp up in the wilds of Scotland. We let the ARMY run it with basic rations, make them live in tents and give the Army officers strict instructions, to make life as tough and unpleasant as possible. There will be no intervention from do gooders and no set sentence, they will have to earn their freedom. Come on Cameron show us your backbone and set it up. The other thing is it would be relatively cheap by prison comparisons
> ...


Ouch. I think that might pass some people by... :wink:


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## meesterbond (May 4, 2011)

vlastan said:


> I was planning to go shopping, but why bother? Rioting is cheaper these days. Anyone following me to Ann Summers tonight?  :lol:


Be careful, there'll be a lot of bellends running around, just check which ones are battery operated


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## meesterbond (May 4, 2011)

rustyintegrale said:


> phope said:
> 
> 
> > Hilly10 said:
> ...


Can you smell gas?


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## phope (Mar 26, 2006)

Hilly's onto something, you know - what a visionary!


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## Wallsendmag (Feb 12, 2004)

I've an idea lets build a wall to keep the southerners out, I'm sure there are some decent foundations around here somewhere.


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## Colinthecop (Jan 2, 2008)

It might be a coincidence, but the current best sellers on Amazon all seem to be in a similar vein. 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/movers-and-shakers/sports/ref=zg_bs_tab


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## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

wallsendmag said:


> I've an idea lets build a wall to keep the southerners out, I'm sure there are some decent foundations around here somewhere.


You don't need to build a wall.


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

rustyintegrale said:


> wallsendmag said:
> 
> 
> > I've an idea lets build a wall to keep the southerners out, I'm sure there are some decent foundations around here somewhere.
> ...


+1


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## YoungOldUn (Apr 12, 2011)

A bit off topic - I heard (Think it was Billy Connelly) once say that the Scots were like hemorrhoids - they come down easily but are bastards to push back up


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## STTink (Jun 28, 2011)

rustyintegrale said:


> wallsendmag said:
> 
> 
> > I've an idea lets build a wall to keep the southerners out, I'm sure there are some decent foundations around here somewhere.
> ...


 :lol:


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

YoungOldUn said:


> A bit off topic - I heard (Think it was Billy Connelly) once say that the Scots were like hemorrhoids - they come down easily but are bastards to push back up


lmao jim you bad lad


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## YoungOldUn (Apr 12, 2011)

gazzer1964 said:


> YoungOldUn said:
> 
> 
> > A bit off topic - I heard (Think it was Billy Connelly) once say that the Scots were like hemorrhoids - they come down easily but are bastards to push back up
> ...


+1 :lol: :lol:


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

Can't see why the police doesn't use water cannons to disperse the rioters / looters


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## YoungOldUn (Apr 12, 2011)

I'm sure that the police have all of the weapons that they need including as Dani says water cannon plus tazers and rubber bullets to control the rioters, the question is - why aren't they using them? It's as if the police are afraid of arresting anyone, perhaps because they don't have anywhere to put them and if they had, the rioters would be released on bail within hours to continue the mayhem.


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## mikeat45 (May 9, 2009)

they havn't been allowed to so far ...but if it keeps up it wont be long, maybe thats why they dont seem to be doing alot (not that they can againt a mob) just to push the use of a decent force other than shields and batons
i say shoot looters on sight (like they used to in the old days)


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

Well, Manchester is under attack today as well.

What I find interesting is this picture on BBC: guys ransack the cities and girls clean up!!








Think I'd rather use a bazooka than an broom :evil:


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## Graham Grant (Jul 23, 2011)

A friend of mine, has told me that all the rioting in Peckham has resulted in 20 million pounds worth of improvements.


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## YoungOldUn (Apr 12, 2011)

All of the guys were actually cleaning up while all of the gals stood around to have their photo taken


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

YoungOldUn said:


> All of the guys were actually cleaning up while all of the gals stood around to have their photo taken


You reckon? :roll: :lol:


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

Disgusting:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14456065


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## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

John-H said:


> Disgusting:
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14456065


Posted yesterday John - the uncensored version. But yes, appalling. :?


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

The current situation is a result of neither parents nor teachers nor now police acting in a firm enough way to ensure law and order are enforced for fear of being sued. It's a ridiculous situation to have police standing back watching rioters/looters for fear of being penalised themselves. :evil:


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## DaughtersSlave (Apr 13, 2011)

There is only one way to deal with these scum.................

A long while back I was involved with this and the deterrent still stands today:

http://www.eliteukforces.info/special-air-service/sas-operations/peterhead/


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

One lad on the radio this morning was saying he was going to do it night after night as he was getting stuff worth loads of money and he only saw a few being arrested so he was going to carry on until he got arrested because it was worth it and he'd only get a caution.

Oh really? So you get arrested for rioting and cought with stolen goods and you can keep all the stolen stuff stashed at home too and they are only going to give a caution? No trouble then? It will all be forgotten by next week?

Perhaps the press have something to answer there about the impression they give that criminal youths are untouchable which in turn makes them think they can get away with it. Are we also guilty of peddling similar stories and compounding the issue because we like wallowing in the camoradorie of our own impotence and buy such newspapers that confirm our own biassed beliefs - we love to say _it's all hopeless and we can't do anything about it so what's the point of trying? I'll give you an example..._

Well perhaps those that are caught should have the consequences _properly_ reported so we can pedal those stories instead by way of example.

Plus, you often get riots when the economic cycle is in decline and social and personal hardships are in the offing - not that it in any way condones such behaviour of course - but I did think that talking about cutting police numbers would only stoke the embers that were starting to smoulder. Even little things can effect it - like whether it rains tonight. I think we should all think long and hard about the impression we give sometimes.


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## Jac-in-a-Box (Nov 9, 2002)

A3DFU said:


> The current situation is a result of neither parents *nor teachers* nor now police acting in a firm enough way to ensure law and order are enforced for fear of being sued. It's a ridiculous situation to have police standing back watching rioters/looters for fear of being penalised themselves. :evil:


Parents are culpable for sure Dani - teachers no. We have removed any sanctions available to teachers to maintain discipline. FFS, we even have a "Childrens Tzar" (what a stupid expression) in Scotland who has dictated that teachers must not shout at children, you'd just as well have a teacher who is gagged with their hands tied behind their backs in the classroom.

The police are damned if they do go in hard and equally damned if they don't. What we're seeing here is the harvest from the seeds sown by the daft touchy-feely all inclusive societal seeds sown in the Blair/Brown years. Not forgetting Blairs wife making a good living by spreading the "ooman rights" crap.
We've now got a feral underclass who act as though they can break any law with impunity, have no concept of decency and are incapable of making any meaningful contribution to society.

Now the whole debacle has now caught the attention of the media world wide. I, along with many others I'm sure, feel more than a little embarrassed and ashamed ...the country is f****d and I'm not sure what the answer is without a radical and hard shift in policy towards this sort of behaviour :x


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## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

Jac-in-a-Box said:


> A3DFU said:
> 
> 
> > The current situation is a result of neither parents *nor teachers* nor now police acting in a firm enough way to ensure law and order are enforced for fear of being sued. It's a ridiculous situation to have police standing back watching rioters/looters for fear of being penalised themselves. :evil:
> ...


So teachers are blaming government, the police are blaming government, yet protesters aren't allowed that choice. Is that what you're saying?

What has happened is appalling. There is no excuse for the destruction and theft we have seen, so please don't think I seek to justify it. BUT, a big but. Dismissing the hooligan element for a moment, there must be reasons behind this behaviour. We can either seek to find them or bury our heads in the sand until next time.


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

There was an interview with a 15 year old girl broadcast on BBC this morning. She was asked why she supported the riots? Her answer: "society doesn't respect us! Show us respect and we'll respect you back"
I think the shoe needs to be on the other foot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ps: nice to see you're still around, Dave


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

The best teachers never needed to shout or use anything physical as far as I remember - it was the ones that shouted who had difficulty controlling a class - they used to go and get the good ones to calm things down and all they would need to do was stand there giving a disapproving look. Psychology, brilliant in the hands of an expert. Mind you I had a teacher who used to "board hang" first years upside down by thir legs, poke em with a stck and make them sing sea shanties (and they came back for more!) but perhaps they were more innocent (if not strange) times :lol:

I don't know, times change but then they seem the same. Our parents said the same sort of things as we do and their's before probably.

Here... spot the connection:

Brixton, Toxteth, Hansworth, Drumcree, Lansdowne Road, Manningham, Carlton leach, Ely, Salford (1990), Strangeways, Leeds United (Birmingham), Moss Side, St Paul's, Southall, Luton

Details here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_riots

There are rather a lot of them over a very long time and generally speaking they involve far less bloodshed than they used to. The ones now seem quite tame in comparison.


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## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

John-H said:


> The best teachers never needed to shout or use anything physical as far as I remember - it was the ones that shouted who had difficulty controlling a class - they used to go and get the good ones to calm things down and all they would need to do was stand there giving a disapproving look. Psychology, brilliant in the hands of an expert. Mind you I had a teacher who used to "board hang" first years upside down by thir legs, poke em with a stck and make them sing sea shanties (and they came back for more!) but perhaps they were more innocent (if not strange) times :lol:
> 
> I don't know, times change but then they seem the same. Our parents said the same sort of things as we do and their's before probably.
> 
> ...


I was shit scared of my teachers. That's the difference. They all expect gifts now!


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

well for me it all begins at home, as a lad i was a complete doodah and completely unruly in my everyday events out and about.
the fact that my mother died at twelve and so lost that home love every kid needs......left me open to my fathers strict rules in life and a good beating if i didnt obey or toe the line. am i scarred by this in life? not a bit, my father taught me to respect the community and my elders in life. now i am all grown and have three very loving law abiding daughters, two of which have children of there own.
so for me it isnt a case of broken home syndrome and poor upbringing. it is what you decide to make of yourself in life, and then instill that into the next generation within the family. stop blaming society for you being a scumbag useless piece of crap and drag yourself out of the gutter and become men not sheep following each others fluck ups


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## Jac-in-a-Box (Nov 9, 2002)

Nice to be back Dani - I'll give you a call soon 

To address a few points since my last post...and only because my other half is in the education business and because gazzer 1964 has touched on something that's fundamentally lacking in society today and maybe a good starting point in the cure for todays ill's; parental responsibility.

It's not the teachers place to to teach *core* values of respect, decency and honesty -all of which seem to be rare commodities in todays youngsters. Parents seem to be abdicating in their resonsibilities to their offspring. Many of whom are single mothers who seem to see dropping a sprog, or 2 or 3.. as a way to get handouts. I'm sure the concept of contraception is not beyond the dimmest of our young citizens.

J see's 5 year olds turning up for the first day of their school life spouting crap about "I know my rights" Parents who when invited to school to discuss errant behaviour refuse to accept little Tabatha would do/say/take part in whatever. This is just not from our "underclass" but supposedly reasonably intelligent and educated parents.
Many see school as a form of free child minding while they watch Jeremy Kyle.

@ John H - "the best teachers didn't need to shout..." You're from the same era as me. My memories are the same. But, they didn't need to shout because they had a whole bunch of other punishments available, those have gone, there are no sanctions left - and the kids know it and play on it. I can remember getting into the s**t several times in my school years, I got caned but feared more whatever was lined up for me by my old man.

I don't suggest that better parenting is the cure, but it would be a good place to start. There are of course other more complex issues many of which I don't pretend to fully understand...it's a sad state of affairs and I'll still put a lot of blame on the utopian policies of Blair and Brown.

Dave


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

Jac-in-a-Box said:


> Nice to be back Dani - I'll give you a call soon
> 
> To address a few points since my last post...and only because my other half is in the education business and because gazzer 1964 has touched on something that's fundamentally lacking in society today and maybe a good starting point in the cure for todays ill's; parental responsibility.
> 
> ...


what an intelligent response to some fundamental questions in life in light of the current topic of affairs dave. i beg to differ slightly though,,,,,,i dont care what policies blair or cameron had/have. i want my grand kids to grow up to be decent members of society and not an embarrassment to the family. (turned out to be my father lol) so i take full responsibility for the exam results they achieve and punish them accordingly if dropping or help if they need basic common sense approach to certain subjects. for me family is the key subject and we hold a monthly meeting to have a nice meal at home or in a restaurant and over the meal we discuss any and all subjects. it keeps the family bond tight and the younger ones get to hear why certain things in life are just wrong. ok best get back to my quotes as busy busy lol


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## SalsredTT (Jan 8, 2011)

Oh dear - just seen on the news that one of the recently convicted is a teaching assistant. Well, that says it all.

And these are the people in charge of our children and their education? What a ffffff laugh.


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

Jac-in-a-Box said:


> @ John H - "the best teachers didn't need to shout..." You're from the same era as me. My memories are the same. But, they didn't need to shout because they had a whole bunch of other punishments available, those have gone, there are no sanctions left - and the kids know it and play on it. I can remember getting into the s**t several times in my school years, I got caned but feared more whatever was lined up for me by my old man.
> 
> I don't suggest that better parenting is the cure, but it would be a good place to start. There are of course other more complex issues many of which I don't pretend to fully understand...it's a sad state of affairs and I'll still put a lot of blame on the utopian policies of Blair and Brown.
> 
> Dave


Hi Dave,

The "cane" was talked about but I don't remember anyone ever getting it. Thing is, although corporal punishment was available to all the teachers we still had a few teachers who couldn't control a class _*despite*_ this so called ultimate sanction being available, so I don't think it made any real difference at all. What did make a difference was the respect the good teachers commanded _*without*_ it. How you achieve that is more complicated and a skill to lean. We had teachers who you just wouldn't dream of misbehaving in class with. Not because of a threat of violence but more because you'd feel bad about making them angry and you'd be embarrassed in front of the whole class having been told off by them.

I went to a comprehensive. Perhaps it was a good one or perhaps the parents of the pupils were good to start with and the ball rolled from there I don't know. The teachers espescially in the fifth and sixth forms were real characters. The maths teacher Fred Lott was a likeable nutter. Being in his classes was like being on a pirate ship where he was captain and we were the crew. Sounds completely daft I know but he's have us singing _50 men on a dead man's chest_ and grabbed passing first formers to make walk the plank off a desk for our (and their) entertainment. He'd encourage us to play pranks on him in class but it always had to be an original one (I covered his desk and chair in synthetic cobwebs once) and he was always accusing the odd class member of being down the gin palace the night before, going on about drinking Gordon's Gin and was delighted when we covered the back wall of his classroom with those green double page spread adverts they used to do in the newspapers. The entire wall was covered green! And he smoked a pipe in class, called fractions "guzinters", had nicknames for each of us and if he was passing a line of pupils outside a classroom when the bell went he'd shout "Seconds out" and punch the nearest lad in the stomach! (not too hard you understand). But how could you do anything but respect a teacher like that? :lol:

The only politician who ever persuaded me into civil disobedience was one who introduced the poll tax. What a popular policy that was and made you feel so good... NOT! I didn't riot but I did go to action meetings and implemented one of the suggestions by paying mine using a whole cheque book of odd value cheques to make the administeration very hard. I think many in the council didn't agree with it either - they played ball and sent one of the cheques back and a nice letter explaining that the cheque for £2.07 should have been £2.17 to add up to the right amount with the other 49 cheques. :lol: Very civilised disobedience.


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## Jac-in-a-Box (Nov 9, 2002)

SalsredTT said:


> Oh dear - just seen on the news that one of the recently convicted is a teaching assistant. Well, that says it all.
> 
> And these are the people in charge of our children and their education? What a ffffff laugh.


Well - I guess by your logic that makes the teaching profession a bunch of rioting looters? - I'll bet you're a Daily Wail reader? :roll:

Dave


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## YoungOldUn (Apr 12, 2011)

We also had the 'The cane' and 'The strap' both of which where used. I first received the cane when I was 6 years old for throwing soil at another lad. This experience stayed with me for a good 8 years before once again being caned (can't remember what for). The teachers who used the cane at our school received more respect than the ones who didn't. Some of the teachers were absolutely brilliant while other were quite honestly crap and the brilliant ones tended to be the ones who caned pupils. Having said that there were some pupils who no matter what was used as a punishment would never change their ways.


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

All crime is due to incorrect breathing! (takes deep breath....)


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## Jac-in-a-Box (Nov 9, 2002)

John-H said:


> The "cane" was talked about but I don't remember anyone ever getting it. Thing is, although corporal punishment was available to all the teachers we still had a few teachers who couldn't control a class _*despite*_ this so called ultimate sanction being available, so I don't think it made any real difference at all. What did make a difference was the respect the good teachers commanded _*without*_ it. How you achieve that is more complicated and a skill to lean. We had teachers who you just wouldn't dream of misbehaving in class with. Not because of a threat of violence but more because you'd feel bad about making them angry and you'd be embarrassed in front of the whole class having been told off by them.


Not sure I entirely agree with you John :wink:

The threat of a violent punishment was a great deterent to misbehaviour...I stepped over the line and suffered painfully, that was enough to ensure I didn't stray again.

My school days finished around 40 years ago, but I believe I had those core values I mentioned earlier taught to me by my parents. I didn't go to school to be disrespectful to my teachers, I went to learn and abide by the rules laid down by the school and by my parents when I didn't I suffered the consequences - it did me no harm.

40 years on and it's a different story and a very different world governed by values that I despise - greed, selfishness, ignorance and stupidity. We musn't forget this human rights rubbish that's been taken to extremes too.
When there isn't a viable threat to misbehaviour at any level, you'll see what's on the news just now.

IIRC someone had made a comment on this thead (or perhaps another) about visiting the Isle of Man and having to make a concious effort to behave because they still used the birch...seems to me the threat of a meaningful punishment worked there!

Bed beckons 

Dave


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

Jac-in-a-Box said:


> John-H said:
> 
> 
> > The "cane" was talked about but I don't remember anyone ever getting it. Thing is, although corporal punishment was available to all the teachers we still had a few teachers who couldn't control a class _*despite*_ this so called ultimate sanction being available, so I don't think it made any real difference at all. What did make a difference was the respect the good teachers commanded _*without*_ it. How you achieve that is more complicated and a skill to lean. We had teachers who you just wouldn't dream of misbehaving in class with. Not because of a threat of violence but more because you'd feel bad about making them angry and you'd be embarrassed in front of the whole class having been told off by them.
> ...


+1 spot on dave


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

Well my school days were a little later than yours Dave and the experience of it a little different too. I'm not saying that the threat of violence doesn't have an effect but I'd question the message that it passes on especially when used as a deterrent of choice - there are better methods that should be used first that pass on a more positive message.

I think that was what a comedian was getting at when he said, _"Why are people who say that corporal punishment never did them any harm airways red in the face and beat themselves repeatedly with riding crops?"_ Present company excerpted of course - he was getting at those who use it out of choice.

When you use violence as a deterrent you've failed at the better methods available to you. I refer again to the example of some poor teachers in my school, who despite having corporal punishment available, failed to control the class - and the good teachers who didn't need to use it because they had better amd more positive methods such as fun, reward, engagement which all engendered respect.

I remember seeing a programme about a Glasgow family - mum, dad, seven kids, a cat and a dog. It was utter chaos. There was a hierarchy of hitting going on. The parents would shout and scream and whack the kids, the older kids would whack the smaller ones and the little ones took it out on the dog and cat. All going round in a cycle of bad example. They brought a child psychologist in who showed them some different methods - no violence, positive rewards for good behaviour and helping with household jobs, praise for good school homework etc. In two weeks it was a transformation - peace and quiet and everyone was happy for the first time in ages.

I can't forget what the father said; *"Now when I'm in the pub with my mates, I'm proud to say, I don't NEED to hit my kids!"*

Another example I remember seeing: A woman and two kids, one about six and a toddler waiting for a taxi. The toddler was running round a bollard in circles. The taxi stopped for them and instead of the mother putting her two kids in first _she_ got in first and shouted, _"Gedin the taxi!"_. The six year old said, "Gedin the taxi!" and whacked the toddler who was still running round the bollard, then a hand came out of the taxi and whacked the six year old along with the words, _"I've told you not to hit your brother"_. Well I wonder where he learnt that behaviour from :roll:


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## Nilesong (Jan 19, 2009)

Put them to good use. [smiley=bulb2.gif]

VERY HARD LABOUR!!

The 'Community Service' system is a farce!

If we can't publicly flog them to within an inch of their lives (which I feel is an excellent deterrent) I think we should chain gang four or five together. Tag 'em too just in case. They live like this in a camp for a set period of time.( A year or two depending on severity of crime.) Up at the crack of dawn and made to work a 16 hour day (like a lot of people do these days anyway.)
Make them scrub graffiti from walls (by hand,) go around collecting litter, supermarket trolleys and traffic cones from our rivers and lakes. While they're doing this, they all have to wear hi vis jackets with 'I'm a looter, rioter, mugger,' or whatever written on them in big letters for all to see. Whatever happened to stocks?? They seemed to work quite well, no?

Freedom must be earned!!! Early release on probation is futile and irrelevant.

Humiliation is a powerful weapon against these retards. :twisted:


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

Far more psychological :wink:


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## STTink (Jun 28, 2011)

Nilesong said:


> Put them to good use. [smiley=bulb2.gif]
> 
> VERY HARD LABOUR!!
> 
> ...


Of course, you failed to mention the Hi Vis jackets should be pink.

And i fully agree, don't lock them up and let them play pool and watch more tv, make them earn their keep. If they decide they're not going to comply, solitary it is.


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## Jac-in-a-Box (Nov 9, 2002)

John-H said:


> ... message that it passes on especially when used as a deterrent of choice - there are better methods that should be used first that pass on a more positive message....and said lots more too!


I don't think I've advocated a violent punishment as the punishment of first resort! The thrust of my posts is that all sanctions have been removed from the education system (they have in Scotland at least) At primary school level, that would be loss of playtime, denial of some "fun" activities through to the traditional leather belt. There is nothing that a teacher has available to maintain discipline and that is not helped by parents who refuse to accept their little darling is capable of wrongdoing.

I'm not saying that all children are like that, but the effect of one unruly youngster can have on a class of generally well behaved kids is damaging - and when they see very little can be done a snowball effect happens.
Exclusion is still a possibility, but the with councils now adopting a policy of "inclusiveness" getting it to happen is such a time consumming process that it's nigh on impossible.

The detterent effect of a sanction should be a valuable tool to the teacher that has sadly been denied by misguided fools - in life we have laws that should be obeyed, if you break them there is a punishment. It's a fundamental part of a meaningful society. It's simple.

For the worst offenders ,educational psychologists visit to dish out the warm and fuzzy therapy - the effects are dubious and at best, short lived.
Watch some of the base thuggery shown on TV - the Malaysian student getting mugged, do you honestly think that any amount of councelling (sp) will have an effect on those who took part in it? I don't, I really don't.

It's all very well saying the use of corporal punishment wasn't witnessed by you at school; the kids at the time when you went to school are very different to the kids that are around today...it's those missing core values again and it stems from an abdication of parental responsibility and accountability.

There is no easy answer to solving the problem, the thugs we have today will be spawning their own to be brought up with same set of worthless values - it's going to be a long time changing 

All IMO of course 

Dave


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

Jac-in-a-Box said:


> I don't think I've advocated a violent punishment as the punishment of first resort!


I know you didn't Dave but Some people think like that and some teachers were quick too resort to it - my point was that they were not the good ones.



Jac-in-a-Box said:


> The thrust of my posts is that all sanctions have been removed from the education system (they have in Scotland at least) At primary school level, that would be loss of playtime, denial of some "fun" activities through to the traditional leather belt. There is nothing that a teacher has available to maintain discipline and that is not helped by parents who refuse to accept their little darling is capable of wrongdoing.


Well, that doesn't seem a good idea I'd agree.



Jac-in-a-Box said:


> I'm not saying that all children are like that, but the effect of one unruly youngster can have on a class of generally well behaved kids is damaging - and when they see very little can be done a snowball effect happens.
> Exclusion is still a possibility, but the with councils now adopting a policy of "inclusiveness" getting it to happen is such a time consumming process that it's nigh on impossible.
> 
> The detterent effect of a sanction should be a valuable tool to the teacher that has sadly been denied by misguided fools - in life we have laws that should be obeyed, if you break them there is a punishment. It's a fundamental part of a meaningful society. It's simple.


Totally agree Dave.



Jac-in-a-Box said:


> For the worst offenders ,educational psychologists visit to dish out the warm and fuzzy therapy - the effects are dubious and at best, short lived.
> Watch some of the base thuggery shown on TV - the Malaysian student getting mugged, do you honestly think that any amount of councelling (sp) will have an effect on those who took part in it? I don't, I really don't.


I agree the people who were involved in mugging that student are scum and changing their behaviour is not going to be easy and perhaps impossible because it's too far down the line. Whoever was in charge of their development has failed. What we do about them now is one thing but we should be fixing the failures that got them there in the first place.



Jac-in-a-Box said:


> It's all very well saying the use of corporal punishment wasn't witnessed by you at school; the kids at the time when you went to school are very different to the kids that are around today...it's those missing core values again and it stems from an abdication of parental responsibility and accountability.


I didn't say I didn't witness corporal punishment - there was the slipper I saw used. My point I think was that there was enough good teaching about that it was very rare and as I said, the good teachers used other methods well before resorting to the last resort - when they would have failed at everything else. The good ones didn't fail like that.

I'm not too sure either that kids are that different than we were or our parents before us etc. - it's a generational thing and perspective is relative. If you looked at that list of riots I posted the causes are revealing and the violence has on the whole lessened over the centuries probably as civilisation has progressed.



Jac-in-a-Box said:


> There is no easy answer to solving the problem, the thugs we have today will be spawning their own to be brought up with same set of worthless values - it's going to be a long time changing
> 
> All IMO of course
> 
> Dave


I think you may be right there Dave.

One good thing that's happening now is the reporting of the trouble the rioters are now in with the law. I hope the press keep reporting this news but I suspect it will dwindle as interest wains. They should make some documentaries showing the whole process to get the message over as to the consequences of being an idiot.


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

Jac-in-a-Box said:


> I had those core values I mentioned earlier taught to me by my parents. I didn't go to school to be disrespectful to my teachers, I went to learn and abide by the rules laid down by the school and by my parents; when I didn't I suffered the consequences - it did me no harm.
> 
> 40 years on and it's a different story and a very different world governed by values that I despise - greed, selfishness, ignorance and stupidity. We musn't forget this human rights rubbish that's been taken to extremes too.
> When there isn't a viable threat to misbehaviour at any level, you'll see what's on the news just now.
> ...


+1


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

Gloucester city homes (housing association) has just announced that any tenants convicted of the looting in Gloucester will be evicted due to tenancy rules. Love it!!!!! go on guys kick the scum out.


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## STTink (Jun 28, 2011)

gazzer1964 said:


> Gloucester city homes (housing association) has just announced that any tenants convicted of the looting in Gloucester will be evicted due to tenancy rules. Love it!!!!! go on guys kick the scum out.


Then rehome them due to their civil liberties. :lol:


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

STTink said:


> gazzer1964 said:
> 
> 
> > Gloucester city homes (housing association) has just announced that any tenants convicted of the looting in Gloucester will be evicted due to tenancy rules. Love it!!!!! go on guys kick the scum out.
> ...


i heard there are some empty properties by you m8ee


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## STTink (Jun 28, 2011)

gazzer1964 said:


> STTink said:
> 
> 
> > gazzer1964 said:
> ...


For Leeds, it's quite posh where i live, but then, Whaddon or Manser St, you know, where you live, maybe they could rip some of those metal shutters off and house some of these ferral families. Pretty sure i could get my old friend Georgy Smith to nip round or Lee Atwood to see if there's anything they could do to help. :wink:


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

well now were name dropping ehh...........ok here goes.

georgie smith is now retired as is the rest of the family since they messed with the coloureds in gloucester and had the car petrol bombed one night. lee, now thats a guy i havn't seen in donkeys years tbh and never even hear about now days.

clint and andy cameron are semi retired......though clint can still kick off if he feels like it.
the breslins are just about finished as are the johnsons bud. the shearings! only one who is ever active is pat, but he only does private partys for door work now. puggy has left the cat and oh yeah the sharpes are now publicans.


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## STTink (Jun 28, 2011)

gazzer1964 said:


> well now were name dropping ehh...........ok here goes.
> 
> georgie smith is now retired as is the rest of the family since they messed with the coloureds in gloucester and had the car petrol bombed one night. lee, now thats a guy i havn't seen in donkeys years tbh and never even hear about now days.
> 
> ...


I know Georgie and he's still doing what he always did.
I remember booting Clint out of the Prom Vaults one night, threatened to come back with his family and smash the place up. 2 weeks later they did come down, apologised and i let them back in. People are different when they're sober.

Shearings are, and always have been wasters and the only one i've ever had time for was Pat, although he's a waster too.
I thought there was a team of biologists trying to work which of the grandparents of the Johnsons mated with a rat first seeing as they've always seemed to look like rats.

I wouldn't call it name dropping , more shamed embaressment. :lol:


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

STTink said:


> gazzer1964 said:
> 
> 
> > well now were name dropping ehh...........ok here goes.
> ...


ROFL love it love it.....georgie is resigned to the hop pole now days m8 or are you talking about young georgie?


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## STTink (Jun 28, 2011)

gazzer1964 said:


> STTink said:
> 
> 
> > gazzer1964 said:
> ...


Elder.

I drink in the Montpellier , prefer that end of town, better class of idiot. :wink:


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## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

Been busy...






Cheers

Rich


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## STTink (Jun 28, 2011)

You Mac boys have all the cool stuff. :lol:

Joking aside, very thought provoking.


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

rustyintegrale said:


> Been busy...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Rich, i knew you were a fairly clever guy.....but buk me mate that is GOOD. wasted sat on here m8ee use that talent and earn some decent bucks my friend


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## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

gazzer1964 said:


> Rich, i knew you were a fairly clever guy.....but buk me mate that is GOOD. wasted sat on here m8ee use that talent and earn some decent bucks my friend


Thanks mate. Get yourself a Mac and you too can become a video editor! :lol: :lol:

I've got lots of skills mate. The trouble is not many are prepared to pay proper money for them anymore... [smiley=bigcry.gif]

I think I'll go out and smash a few windows... :lol: :lol:


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## Nilesong (Jan 19, 2009)

Another blockbuster from Totally Insane Films! 

Great piece Rich.


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

Nilesong said:


> Another blockbuster from Totally Insane Films!
> 
> Great piece Rich.


+1

I like your choice of music


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## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

A3DFU said:


> Nilesong said:
> 
> 
> > Another blockbuster from Totally Insane Films!
> ...


Thank you both! 

Please feel free to leave comments on the YouTube site and subscribe too. I've a feeling some more might be added... :wink:


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## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

And in a lighter vein as it's Friday... :lol:

http://www.kontraband.com/pics/27800/Lo ... s-Shopped/


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## Mark Davies (Apr 10, 2007)

Finally got the chance to get home and put my feet up after several days of very long hours and hard work. Quite literally battered and bruised and thoroughly knackered. Just a short respite as my weekend off has been cancelled and I'll be back into it tomorrow with minimum 12 hour shifts for the next week - much like the last five days.

We've been through the thick of it and I'm optimistic that the worst is over. Here in Manchester we were blessed by our infamous rain which came just when needed to stifle the momentum. Hopefully now it's all about the clean-up operation and rounding up those responsible. It's been very satisfyng over that last couple of days to be bringing in the culprits especially as the courts have stepped up to the plate for once. We are literally locking people up this morning to see them going to prison before the next sunrise. It's absolutely fantastic to see someone stopped and arrested for heading towards Manchester city centre with a balaclava and bin bag ready for looting being sent down for six months.

Have to say there's been a lot of highly misinformed and naive comment on these threads. It's very easy to pass judgement and make proclamations from your armchair with very little knowledge and even less understanding of the reality. There is of course no excuse for this kind of criminality but I think there are too many politicians using that as an excuse to dismiss their responsibility for allowing the massive inequalities in society that are at the heart of what happened this week. The answer isn't to throw people out of their houses and take away their benefits and frankly I fear the all-too-late substantial penalties being handed down by the courts are not going to solve the problem either.

It's no coincidence that there have been no riots in Scotland and Wales, both of which have criminal elements equal to if not greater than those in England. What they lack and what we have in abundance are the structural class divides that create an underclass without hope or future that breeds young people prepared to go out and openly commit serious crime as we have seen this week. They do it with wild abandon because they believe they have nothing to lose - and frankly, they haven't.

The politicians are trying to put all this down to 'greed' and 'criminality' which I think is just their way to dodge their responsibility in this, and sadly that means an opportunity missed. For decades the gap between the 'haves' and 'have nots' has been widening. Over my years in the force, joining in the post-Thatcherite era and policing an inner-city division, I have seen it getting steadily worse. Disappointingly that has been predominantly under a so-called socialist Labour government.

By all means rail against the 'scum' who have perpetrated these crimes. Their behaviour deserves your scorn. However I suspect like the majority of society you have very little actual direct experience of these people and the lives they find themselves having to live. Don't get me wrong - I'm not making any excuses for them. I have to deal with these people on a daily basis and wading through the shite of their chaotic and inept existence leaves me thoroughly weary. The point I am making is that before you become so vocal about what you think are the solutions to what you think are the problems spare a little time to contemplate whether you know enough to really understand what you are talking about. The typically draconian knee-jerk, retributionist reactions I have seen here and in the press are not, in my opinion, even close to the answer and are only destined to compound the problems further.

These riots have not been for a cause. They have not been a protest. They have been about an excluded and completely disenfranchised generation going out and selfishly grabbing for themselves something they couldn't otherwise have with no consideration whatsoever for the wider community - and they've done that because it is a community they don't belong to and which they don't give a shit about, because for three generations the community hasn't given a shit about them.

We've tried to hide them under the carpet for too long and it's about time we had the courage to recognise the deep-seated inequalities in our society and did something about it. Only then will we be in a position where we can hope this sort of thing won't happen again and I won't need to sit here completely bolloxed and covered in cuts and bruises.


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## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

Mark Davies said:


> Finally got the chance to get home and put my feet up after several days of very long hours and hard work. Quite literally battered and bruised and thoroughly knackered. Just a short respite as my weekend off has been cancelled and I'll be back into it tomorrow with minimum 12 hour shifts for the next week - much like the last five days.
> 
> We've been through the thick of it and I'm optinistic that the worst is over. Here in Manchester we were blessed by our infamous rain which came just when needed to stifle the momentum. Hopefully now it's all about the clean-up operation and rounding up those responsible. It's been very satisfyng over that last couple of days to be bringing in the culprits especially as the courts have stepped up to the plate for once. We are literally locking people up this morning to see them going to prison before the next sunrise. It's absolutely fantastic to see someone stopped and arrested for heading towards Manchester city centre with a balaclava and bin bag ready for looting being sent down for six months.
> 
> ...


Your best post ever Mark. Enjoy putting your feet up. Sod it, have a beer too... 8)


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

An excellent post Mark, finally someone who has a grasp on the situation,,, i dont know where you find the energy or inclination to submit such a post,,, maybe it is an attempt to help some of the posters of the ignorant ill informed purile drivel which has been filling this thread ( and the "red tops " ) to understand the true reality,,,as you may have noticed i have been trying to explain some of the causes behind this rioting myself but i fear it fell on deaf ears,, perhaps your post may have more success,,,,
but if i may take issue with one point,,, Scotland, tho a much superior and more civilised place than innercity england,, we unfortunatly DO have the cancerous class segragation which you speak of,,,
and if i may go a little further,, which,( classism ) as a global issue is the base problem of the rioting, this is not an issue which can be solved by politicians of either , or any, political party,, this is a much deeper problem ,and will need a global change in this class ridden world where the minority,and nowadys no longer a domain of some families, but increasingly multinational companies,,loose their stranglehold on the global assets and the profits / benefits of these are fairly dealt to the whole of the peoples,,, if not, the rioting will only get worse as the class divide widens and more and more people become marginalised , dissenfranchised ,demoralised and disoriantated...
to think, as some do,that to jail a 16 year old for stealing a pack of chewing gum or to bring back the " belt " or the " birch " is in any way an answere to the problem is frankly laughable......


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

roddy said:


> and will need a global change in this class ridden world where the minority,and nowadys no longer a domain of some families, but increasingly multinational companies,,loose their stranglehold on the global assets and the profits / benefits of these are fairly dealt to the whole of the peoples


I sometimes find the rambling nature of your posts hard to follow, but are you suggesting communism here?

Whilst i agree with some of Marks post, society in this country has been segregated into classes for centuries (more so than it is now), with the minority owning the majority if the wealth. People at the 'bottom' of the pyramid being marginalised is hardly a modern problem. So what's changed?


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

" spandex ",, unfortunatly i fear you are a long way from understanding the problem, ( i am sorry but i do not know any more simplistic way of puting it for you ! ) )


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

roddy said:


> " spandex ",, unfortunatly i fear you are a long way from understanding the problem, ( i am sorry but i do not know any more simplistic way of puting it for you ! ) )


"Roddy" you haven't put anything forward. You've just meandered around what you believe to be the problem. That's why i was asking if you were implying the solution was communism. If you're struggling to answer that question in a manner that is simplistic enough for me, perhaps I could suggest one of the following answers:

1. Yes.
2. No.


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

Spandex said:


> roddy said:
> 
> 
> > " spandex ",, unfortunatly i fear you are a long way from understanding the problem, ( i am sorry but i do not know any more simplistic way of puting it for you ! ) )
> ...


enjoy your new shoes,,,, while you can !!! :roll: :roll:


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## TTCool (Feb 7, 2005)

My parents were not well off when they started out and didn't live in a particularly good area. They wanted me to be successful in life. They sent me to our local school. I worked hard with encouragement from my parents and passed the 11+. I passed further exams. I got a job. I eventually met the love of my life. We got married. We had two children, now grown up, who are doing exactly the same and succeeding. They have never courted trouble, kept bad company, done drugs, overindulged in alcohol, engaged in excessive materialism and they have a good grounding in moral behaviour provided by my wife, me, their teachers and our local church. Yes, have a good laugh at the church bit.

My parents came from Italy in 1918 and found menial work immediately. They learned to speak English. During the Second World War my father was taken from his place of work, interned and kept in a Circus cage on the Isle of Man where he suffered terribly, returning after the war with hair white as snow and a shadow of his former self. Many of his friends died there. Did that affect his ambition for his family? NO. Did it turn him and his family into opportunist thugs, thieves and violent individuals? NO. None of us have ever been on any of the myriad of benefits that are available today.

Everybody should follow this route; except the internment! If the earlier generations and the generations before fell short of this formula and spawned the recreational looters, et al, how can it be blamed on anyone but themselves and their parents? They do what they do, live like they do, because they can, with the help of the State, which by the way is made possible through the taxes the rest of us pay.

Joe


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## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

TTCool said:


> My parents were not well off when they started out and didn't live in a particularly good area. They wanted me to be successful in life. They sent me to our local school. I worked hard with encouragement from my parents and passed the 11+. I passed further exams. I got a job. I eventually met the love of my life. We got married. We had two children, now grown up, who are doing exactly the same and succeeding. They have never courted trouble, kept bad company, done drugs, overindulged in alcohol, engaged in excessive materialism and they have a good grounding in moral behaviour provided by my wife, me, their teachers and our local church. Yes, have a good laugh at the church bit.
> 
> My parents came from Italy in 1918 and found menial work immediately. They learned to speak English. During the Second World War my father was taken from his place of work, interned and kept in a Circus cage on the Isle of Man where he suffered terribly, returning after the war with hair white as snow and a shadow of his former self. Many of his friends died there. Did that affect his ambition for his family? NO. Did it turn him and his family into opportunist thugs, thieves and violent individuals? NO. None of us have ever been on any of the myriad of benefits that are available today.
> 
> ...


Joe, with utmost respect, circumstances and situations were different then - better yes! But that world has gone sadly... :?


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## TTCool (Feb 7, 2005)

Rusty, how is then that my children have managed it in today's world?

Joe


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## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

TTCool said:


> Rusty, how is then that my children have managed it in today's world?
> 
> Joe


Because you managed it 20 odd years ago I guess. Life was simpler then.


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## TTCool (Feb 7, 2005)

Ok. But I have young friends and neighbours who have youngsters right now and are doing exactly what me and my parents did.

Joe


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## Charlie (Dec 15, 2006)

The issue imo is that the "dregs" of society are breeding at an alarming rate and the general population is rapidly becoming overwhelmed by their offspring and then rather rapidly their offspring; who following in the footsteps of their parents/grandparents treat society as something that owes them a living.

I have suggested the watching of a film called Idiocracy in the past to help highlight the issue and that still stands; not a great film, but it really does highlight the issue.

Simplistic yes, accurate? I think so. I have had a number of alcoholic beverages this evening so that may have influenced my response 

Charlie


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## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

TTCool said:


> Ok. But I have young friends and neighbours who have youngsters right now and are doing exactly what me and my parents did.
> 
> Joe


As am I. But I'm relatively well off compared to some. I have debts for sure, but I have some means to pay them off. Some of these people have **** all help. Agreed some might not help themselves by being so aggressive and obnoxious but believe me it doesn't take too many 'No's' or no response to job applications to make you feel like you've been left behind.

Have that run through a few generations and you get no moral support from the family either and you get sucked into a world that is perceived as negative toward you and your situation.

Living in leafy England is a whole world apart from a toilet like Hackney. I've lived in Walthamstow and that is a **** hole too.


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## STTink (Jun 28, 2011)

Charlie said:


> .
> 
> I have suggested the watching of a film called Idiocracy in the past to help highlight the issue and that still stands; not a great film, but it really does highlight the issue.
> 
> ...


I own that movie. :lol:

It's not rocket surgery is it. There was a piece in the Daily Mail about a year ago about the dumbing down of society paid for by the middle classes, who in most cases couldn't afford to have kids because they didn't feel they earned enough and had the spare time to bring up a child.

Now, lets look at the flipside of that.
Unemployed woman, 4 kids, four different fathers and all paid for by the state.
She smokes, they eat a **** diet, they're always out doing stuff with their friends, because let's face it, who want's to go home, it's ****. She's to busy trying to work out where the next packet of **** is coming from and it dawns on her another kid equals another packet of **** or two a week. Down the pub, get ****** and garners some semen in some carpark behind the Kings Head.

OK, so there are some generalisations there, but be honest, who hasn't seen this or who doesn't know someone like that?
Those kids don't stand a chance, there's no incentive to dig your way out , it's easier to do what mum does, because she's convinced you she's a role model, do nothing and get paid for it.

However, some of your mates are "Haves" and you're definitely a "Have Not". So, what do you do?
Steal a bit of this, sell some weed for some dodgy geezer and you become a self fulfilling prophecy. Pays for the garbs though, right? And that's life for some of these kids, they get some posh kids that hang around for the experience and the protection, but all in all, you become your mother and father, knocking up the next generation of easy motherhood behind the hump in the park after a few bottles of White Lightening and do naf all as far as work goes because your mater has installed in your subconcious that it doesnt pay to work, you can get it all for nothing.


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## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

STTink said:


> It's not rocket surgery is it.


no it's 'rocket science' and 'brain surgery'... :wink:

I agree with some of what you say but do you think they do that out of choice?


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## STTink (Jun 28, 2011)

rustyintegrale said:


> STTink said:
> 
> 
> > It's not rocket surgery is it.
> ...


I don't think choice comes into it in some cases. I think its a subconcious choice, pathways you'll follow because it's sometimes the easiest choice. Humans in most cases given the choice will take the easiest path, this is basic sociology 101.
There are anomolies that make the harder choices, some that do look at the stars from the gutter and make that leap, but all in all most become resigned to a life of ducking and diving.


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## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

STTink said:


> rustyintegrale said:
> 
> 
> > STTink said:
> ...


You're plainly an intelligent guy with many views that I share. I'm probably guilty of doing some of the things you suggest and as a result have never fulfilled my potential. These people probably feel ten times worse. I can connect with that.


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## TTCool (Feb 7, 2005)

rustyintegrale said:


> TTCool said:
> 
> 
> > Ok. But I have young friends and neighbours who have youngsters right now and are doing exactly what me and my parents did.
> ...


Rusty

_People have to change before change can take place_.

Joe


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## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

TTCool said:


> rustyintegrale said:
> 
> 
> > TTCool said:
> ...


Agreed. Who changes first? It's the age old battle.


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

joe i love your posts as you just talk sense & dunno but make me calm if that means anything lol


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## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

gazzer1964 said:


> joe i love your posts as you just talk sense & dunno but make me calm if that means anything lol


It's Jackanory for Gazz. let's all go 'Aaaaaaahhhh....' :lol: :wink:


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## TTCool (Feb 7, 2005)

STTink said:


> Charlie said:
> 
> 
> > .
> ...


All this is true. The main thing that creates this type if individual is the fact that they did not take advantage of our marvelous free education system. They are for the most part unemployable.

Someone once said "If you think education is expensive; try ignorance". Hang on... education is free :roll:

Joe


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## STTink (Jun 28, 2011)

rustyintegrale said:


> "You're plainly an intelligent guy with many views that I share. I'm probably guilty of doing some of the things you suggest and as a result have never fulfilled my potential. These people probably feel ten times worse. I can connect with that.


I'm one of those anomolies Rich. We had nothing when we were kids, but my parents instilled in us the importance of being all you can be. I hold a Masters degree and to look at me you wouldn't let me have the remote to the tv, let alone go near a computer. I've chosen my pathways, no predirections, no precautions in some cases, but in that i've learned the most important lesson of all, who i am.

These kids dont get that, either through lack of intelligence ( and i'm not being condescending here, it's a real issue ) or lack of motivation. I think it's only later in life we choose to find out who we are, and looking back those that choose to go down that path wish they'd have done it earlier. And, by "Who we are" i mean what moves and motivates us, this doesn't have to have anything to do with your genes or your social standing. This has more to do with the with every interaction with everyone and everything we've ever come across, every experience, it molds us, it gives us our psychological make up, every minor butterfly effect affects every single decision we make or point of view we have.

But dig down deep enough, and look at a child as being built out of psychological and socialogcal building blocks and it becomes even easier to understand. If you don't build those blocks with a stable and firm design, the errors you make early on will cascade through that kids life until his/her last breath.

Such a shame to watch it happen, but it's a fact every parent has the chance to build the good into a child, sadly in some cases it's just bypassed in favour of the parent not watching the ball.


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

there is one thing for sure,,as i said in my first post,, ( ok it was a quote from " bob " ),,, " the times they are a changing "
, and to suggest that it is easy living in semi squalor in some crumy estate " is easy ",, sory pall,, you dont have a clue !!!


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

STTink said:


> rustyintegrale said:
> 
> 
> > "You're plainly an intelligent guy with many views that I share. I'm probably guilty of doing some of the things you suggest and as a result have never fulfilled my potential. These people probably feel ten times worse. I can connect with that.
> ...


we walked the same paths in the past........what was your nick when you walked the streets here bud?


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## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

STTink said:


> rustyintegrale said:
> 
> 
> > "You're plainly an intelligent guy with many views that I share. I'm probably guilty of doing some of the things you suggest and as a result have never fulfilled my potential. These people probably feel ten times worse. I can connect with that.
> ...


Who are you, what do you do and where do you live? You talk an awful lot of sense and seem to have some humility with it. Not many people can talk the talk but deliver the walk. You should do something in public life. Seriously. You seem to have a good and OPEN mind. Go for it.


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## STTink (Jun 28, 2011)

gazzer1964 said:


> STTink said:
> 
> 
> > rustyintegrale said:
> ...


Matson, so now you know how fubar'd from the off i was. :lol:


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## STTink (Jun 28, 2011)

rustyintegrale said:


> STTink said:
> 
> 
> > rustyintegrale said:
> ...


Hows that red wine then? :lol:

I'm battling with my blood for another month, but after that i have to get my **** back in shape, or should that be ship? :lol:


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## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

STTink said:


> Hows that red wine then? :lol:
> 
> I'm battling with my blood for another month, but after that i have to get my shit back in shape, or should that be ship? :lol:


No red wine. G&Ts and I'm enjoying every one. But i'm not so ****** as to not see a talent in someone. That's my job.

I know you're not in the best of health, but I'm not clear why. It plainly hasn't affected your brain.


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

trained with a few of te matson lads in church lane hucclecote gym a few years ago.........you must know rich farmer and co then i assume


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

Guys, this is off topic not the flame room. Please refrain from the bad language. Thanks.


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## STTink (Jun 28, 2011)

gazzer1964 said:


> trained with a few of te matson lads in church lane hucclecote gym a few years ago.........you must know rich farmer and co then i assume


I used to deliver Rich Farmers newspaper when i was a kid. His brother went in the police and left when he became fed up with it all. We lived in the flats on Matson Ave, he lived in a posh house, windows and everything.

@ Rich.
I have something called non Hodgkins, it's Hodgkins with a deed poll issue, needs to make it's bloody mind up. It's main nastiness is it's attack on my lymphatic system, but also and not exclusively affects my kidneys, liver, prostate, which has given me epydidmitis which is lumps on and in the feeder tube to the nads, lumps on my nads, in one of my kindeys and liver, under my armits and in my neck. It also affects my CNS because of the intensity of the chemo and the steroids they give me.

Next week i undergo a final course of treatment for 6 weeks, which is a wind down from the other courses, but, fingers crossed from all the feedback, with a lot of patience and not letting it stress me out and keeping my cortisol levels low naturally i believe i've beaten the bastard. It's had me on my knees in tears some mornings with the pain, scared my wife and kids shitless because of the amount of blood that's fallen out of me into the toilet or i've been unable to stop myself bringing up onto my plate at dinner time.

2 years ago the doctors told me it didn't look good.
Since then i've taken a leaf out of Terry Pratchetts book, and decided this thing, this crap thing had caught me and was going to live to regret it.
So, i now know more about the subject than my specialist, he openly admitted that to me recently, but after 2 years, i should hope so with the spare time i've had. I go to a specialist group meet once a month and in the last year seen 5 of them pass away, i've done everything i could to try and help them but in the end it wasn't to be. I get phone calls daily from people that suffer from this crap, and try to talk them past going down the anti depressant route, as this affects the chemo and other factors such as cortisol latency which never helps because it just confuses the natural order of things.

I've laughed at this thing for so long now, i'm guessing it's got fed up of me taking the piss out of it and decided to bugger off. :lol:


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## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

John-H said:


> Guys, this is off topic not the flame room. Please refrain from the bad language. Thanks.


John, are you serious? Was it my "p****d comment?

Apologies for that but we're not kids. My shoelaces are done up and my chair is on the desk. :wink:


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## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

STTink said:


> gazzer1964 said:
> 
> 
> > trained with a few of te matson lads in church lane hucclecote gym a few years ago.........you must know rich farmer and co then i assume
> ...


Man.

I dunno what to say. I feel humbled...

But f**k that you are more positive than me. What excites you?


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## STTink (Jun 28, 2011)

rustyintegrale said:


> STTink said:
> 
> 
> > gazzer1964 said:
> ...


Without trying to upset John, and hope he sees this for what it is, stroking my testes and not finding another lump. :lol: 
I wouldn't feel humbled Rich, i think most that have this fight the good fight, the older ones kinda give into it and decide 75 is old age and it's to be expected. I've come across kids as young as 12 with variants of this and that hits it home a lot.

Luckily i've had some savings to fall back on, and the misses has quite a good job, so although things have become tight, i've seen a lot worse for some of the men and women that of gone through this. Some have had to go through the hoops to get the benefits they're entitled to, luckily that's not happened to me, i've not had to go through humiliation on top of everything else.

But, on the up side, i've learned some really valuable lessons through it all, and it's made me realise a few home truths.
All this without the aid of a god or a religion to lean on either. I'd decided i'd rather believe in me.


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

rustyintegrale said:


> John-H said:
> 
> 
> > Guys, this is off topic not the flame room. Please refrain from the bad language. Thanks.
> ...


That wasn't the only example. Come on Rich, you know the rules, anyone can see this thread including kids, nuns, grannies, vicars - so don't give me a hard time - I'm still upset you didn't laugh at my joke recently, so I'm in a meeeeaaaan mood :wink:

Oh, and let's keep it on topic


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

John-H said:


> Guys, this is off topic not the flame room. Please refrain from the bad language. Thanks.


sorry john will keep it clean sir


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## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

John-H said:


> rustyintegrale said:
> 
> 
> > John-H said:
> ...


Okay. what was the topic? :lol:


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

we have been asked nicely so time to perform i think...............
is off topic so lets go there


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## STTink (Jun 28, 2011)




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## STTink (Jun 28, 2011)

STTink said:


>


Opps, did it again, sorry, back on


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## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

I'm gone guys. Walking up to the curry house for some food.. nighty...


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## Mark Davies (Apr 10, 2007)

There are plenty of us who can tell 'poor-boy-made-good' stories - myself included. My brother and myself grew up in a tiny terraced house in a nowhere mining town in Lancashire, with parents who were in-and-out of work either through ill health or economic decline, but we were still the first generation in our family to go to university. That experience would lead me and others to make the argument that being born in the gutter is no excuse - that if you work and apply yourself it's no disadvantage and you can make something of your life. A life of benefit-dependancy is far from inevitable.

But then I stop and think. For a start that was 30 years ago - and in this section of society that's pretty much two generations. The advantage I had was that even though my parents struggled their parents had of course worked so there was still that ethic. Today's youngsters have had nobody working in their families since before the disasterous economic decline of the 80s under Thatcher - not since the decimation of British heavy industry and the destruction of mining, steel and the car industry. It's not the same playing field.

Yes, I went to university, but statistics show that if your parents didn't go to univeristy then you are less likely to go yourself now than you would have been in the 1960s - and that's despite there being considerably more university places now than there were then. Our problem is a lack of social mobility. If you are born to wealthy parents you will be wealthy and if you are born poor you'll probably stay poor - and the chances of crossing that divide are slimmer and slimmer all the time. Britain has the lowest levels of social mobility in Europe.

It's a cop-out to simply put these riots down to criminality. Many British think we have a soft criminal justice system. We think we allow juvenile offenders to get away with their crimes too often and for too long and that when we do finally dish out punishment it's far too lenient. Many suggest we should hit them harder, earlier. It's an argument that seems to make sense.

But would it surprise you to know that we've actually got one of the thoughest penal systems in Europe? We have one of the lowest ages of criminal responsibility in the world. We send a greater proportion of child offenders to prison than anybody else in Europe. And yet still have one of the highest levels of juvenile offending. Why is that when it seems we are actually quite tough after all? It would tend to suggest getting tougher is hardly the answer.

I think we need to look towards our Scandanavian neighbours. They have an age of criminal responsibility well into the teens. They very rarely imprison juvenile offenders - in fact it's almost unheard of for anything except the most horrific crimes such as murder. Yet, they are on the whole very peaceful communities with relatively low levels of crime. How come? Well, it is perhaps no coincidence that these countries also have the highest levels of social mobility in the western world.

A sense of exclusion is what drives people into a life of crime. Contrary to the common belief of the majority of society who never even come into contact with the criminal classes, it's not an easy life. People who live in this section of society are far more likely than you or I to become victims of crime - and violent crime especially. It's tough. The popular idea that they're all sitting at home smoking **** that we pay for whilst watching Jeremy Kyle on massive TVs that we pay for is only part of the picture. There's plenty of truth in that but it doesn't follow that **** and big TVs in themselves mean a life of contentment. It's not the life they'd choose for themselves if they thought they had a choice.

Now our examples of 'rags-to-riches' may show it is (or at least 30 years ago, was) possible to make that leap - but before you can do that you have to _believe_ that it is possible. The sad fact is that this third or even fourth generation of benefit-dependants no longer have any belief at all. They don't know _anybody_ who has been able to do it. They don't make any effort at school because they firmly believe there's no point. They believe that because that's what their parents tell them, as do all their peers. Of course their parents will say that to self-justify why they never made anything of themselves - they convince themselves that they couldn't have done it and so in turn convince their children that they can't either. And even those rare people who do try find themselves hitting barriers, unable to make it into the professions because they didn't go to the right school, so didn't get into the right university and 'aint wearing the right tie.

For 30 years we've allowed this problem to fester. We've swept these people under the carpet in inner-city sink-estates and charged the police, prisons, probation and social services with the task of keeping a lid on them - doing our best to keep them confined and out of sight so the rest of decent society can get on with more privilaged lives unmolested. All we've been doing is trying to hide a problem that has been steadily growing. Well, this week the lid came off. It all boiled over and spilled out and made a bit of a mess of our pristine, designer kitchens - and perhaps we can't really get away with trying to ignore its existence any longer.

Hopefully it will prompt politicians into doing something about it at last, but for them to do that they would have to admit their failings of the past. Sadly with the talk I've been hearing so far it is clear they have no intention of doing that and I fear it will be an opportunity missed. Instead we'll shove the lid back down and just put more pressure on it while it bubbles and boils yet more. Eventually the pressure will become so intense that it's going to explode.

Anyway - back to it.


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

you been busy lately mark with all of the twots running a muck?


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## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

Once again Mark, an excellent post most of which I agree with.


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## STTink (Jun 28, 2011)

Mark Davies said:


> .
> 
> It's a cop-out to simply put these riots down to criminality. Many Britains think we have a soft criminal justice system. We think we allow juvenile offenders to get away with their crimes too often and for too long and that when we do finally dish out punishment it's far too lenient. Many suggest we should hit them harder, earlier. It's an argument that seems to make sense.
> 
> ...


Kids have had the upper hand for a long time, made precious on the backs of the small percentage of child abuse that goes on in this country at the hands of bullying parents and sex offenders. What needs to be established is how far we allow them to use this as a defence system against adults.
For far too long it's been pointed out that the Social Workers in this country are working with antiquated models, interferring in the wrong cases time and time again, and not establishing new precident when cases go very wrong and just for argument i'll cite the Baby P affair.

Kids in general understand what that means and how far they can push that story to their own ends.
In other words, through the playground and the streets they know their rights, (Or a very rough estimate of what their rights are) more than most adults do. 30 years ago if you were arresting some young buck and he turned to you and said "Dont touch me you f***ing Pig", you'd have give him a belt around the head, he would have shut up and you would have give him a hard time down the nick, giving him a life lesson in the process.
Nowadays, we all see what the police have to let ride, or let ride out of complacency on tv, and programmes like Cops with cameras and Traffic cops do nothing to aid your cause. At the end of each show we get to hear what punishments are dished out and it's horrifying how pathetic those punishments are. Banned drivers being banned again and recieving more points, people spitting and fighting with police officers only to be released the next day without charge.

Even this week on Traffic cops, a police officer got headbutted in the mouth by some pikey when he got caught driving without a license or insurance, he lost 3 teeth over the next few days, the pikey family took the piss sitting on the vehicle and just being a pain until it was towed away, all in all taking up 6 officers that i saw for what had to be 3 hours. That's modern policing is it? Kids watch these programmes, and i'm pretty sure they're not laughing at the pikeys.

About that woman.Of course it's a only part of the picture, but it's a populist one because everybody knows her, everybody on here has come across her kids. We have to live in most cases near her, and her friends. We have to sit by and watch as they constantly become street rats, doing what they like because they feel they can. What's the worst that can happen? And we both know the answer to that.

You also best get your big heavy boots on, because that lids going to have to be stamped back down, there's no money to resolve these problems, just words. Seeing as your bosses and the politicians seem to be at loggerheads over whose to blame, who choices temporarily ended this outbreak of monumental stupidity. Your bosses , the politicians and the law courts have to sit down and decide whether to give the police forces across this country their teeth back and then debate what punishment is, as a fine someones not going to pay or community service someones not going to do isn't really cutting the mustard.

And all those big brains out there that are trying to find a one size fits all answer to this which will not cost the public purse a single penny, well, they best get on the LSD, i think the answer may only be found in mind expanding drugs or thinking so far out of the box, they forgot where the box was.

Or. Maybe, just maybe, someone out there will catch the publics imagination just enough to make every single person in this land to go back to a time where we could be proud to be part of this society, be proud to be a Great Britain. And hopefully that won't include any input from those local door to door racists, the BNP.


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

So why did so many people go on a spree of lawlessness? Is it due to a moral decline, lack of corporal punishment as a child, social depravity, single parents, inequality, communication? Communication??

Did anyone hear the interesting interviey on Today this morning? Cited as examples; otherwise law biding and relatively well off people ending up with criminal records because they joined in the looting - but why did they?

Group think and herd theory. Think about it for a moment, we've now got increased instant communication far more than previous generations and as I mentioned previously, a media who are also responsible for creating impressions and in this case instantly showing how the police were initially outnumbered, how you could therefore seem to get away with it and how you could find out about it on facebook.

But surely your moral upbringing should act as a check?

Well, there was an experiment performed a good few years ago where a number of voluntiers were split into two groups of "prisoners" and "prison guards" and asked to act out the roles in a fake jail. With a flakey cheesey set, initially it was a laugh but soon they fell into their roles. Within a few days it was very real. The guards, following suggestions from the experimentors to increase punishments became cruel and sadistic, depriving prisoners of sleep and abusing them. The prisoners started suffering real trauma and even mental breakdown. The test was stopped early following a reality check from a visitor who had come to see how the experiment was going who promptly burst into tears after seeing what was on the monitor screens. The experiment was meant to run for six weeks but was stopped after two. Some say it should never have been allowed to run even that long. People suffered real damage from "normal" people who had followed suggestions and fell in with the behaviour of the herd influence of the group.

There was another famous experiment where people were told they had to torture a prisoner with an electric shock. They were told the settings could be set from mild, medium, painfull, severe and even up to lethal. They were not told that the prisoner was only acting - they believed that real electric shocks were being delivered. At the behest of the experimeltal supervisor dressed in an authoratative white coat with a clipboard, they were told to ask the prisoner a series of questions and administer shocks. They were asked to increase the shocks as the experiment progressed and despite protesting that they had doubts and didn't want to continue having heard the screams of the prisoner they none the less increased the dosage following instruction to "lethal" and became somewhat traumatised at having "killed" the prisoner. "Normal" people but they did it.

Look at what happened in Germany under Adolf Hitler, with Jews made to scrub the streets as punishment and to set an example of their state decreed inferiority. There were not many Germans who stood up to intervene. Most joined in laughing and accepting the situation, even showing their children to take note. It started like that because the authority of the leaders of the "group" with their mass rallies and youth indoctrination had risen too far without check and we all know how it ended up with concentration camps and mass cruelty and slaughter. They were only following orders - that's true and everyone was too scared to say no, too scared to step out of line and _not_ follow the "herd". Germans are normal people. That could have been us if the same situation had arisen here.

So, is the mass behaviour of the riots that surprising when considering those caught up in the herd? If, following all the media hype and reporting of mass unchecked disorder, everyone in your group starts helping themselves to goods from a broken window what do you do?

The harsh punishments handed out were not really for the individual - they would never have been that harsh individualy if there was no riot - they were to send a message to the group.


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