# fossil.



## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

Broke open a rock at the river when walking the dog today (I normally do this to find little fossel shells) and found this.....

Looks like a fish.  Think its the missing link? :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

Posted it on a paleontology forum. Aparently its one of these.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coelacanth

Cool 

Love stuff like this......


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## igotone (Mar 10, 2010)

Used to see loads of these in my coal mining days- usually foliage and shells. Can't recall ever seeing a fish though, that's pretty cool.


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

igotone said:


> Used to see loads of these in my coal mining days- usually foliage and shells. Can't recall ever seeing a fish though, that's pretty cool.


Yea, been interested in geology and fossils since I was a kid. Mostly find tons of shells and fish scales. The odd plant stem.

Apparently looking further into this its pretty special. And fairly rare.  
Only other animal ive ever found was an ammonite shell. And those are pretty common.


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## Otley (May 15, 2013)

Love finding things like this at the caravan on Yorkshires constantly eroding East coast. This is my latest find.


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

Otley TT QS said:


> Love finding things like this at the caravan on Yorkshires constantly eroding East coast. This is my latest find.


Nice little ammonite, that woukd probably clean up well. Just need the patience to scrape away all the rock around it without harming the shell.


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## Otley (May 15, 2013)

Worried about chipping any of the surrounding away, as there is a substantial full thickness fracture. 
Looking at my first picture you can see the main area is just the impression of the fossil in the rock but if you look at the bottom right corner, there is a piece of very blue coloured (what appears to be the actual fossil.) 
Do you think it would be worth having it professionally cleaned up to expose this fully?


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

Otley TT QS said:


> Worried about chipping any of the surrounding away, as there is a substantial full thickness fracture.
> Looking at my first picture you can see the main area is just the impression of the fossil in the rock but if you look at the bottom right corner, there is a piece of very blue coloured (what appears to be the actual fossil.)
> Do you think it would be worth having it professionally cleaned up to expose this fully?


You can also get it sawn in two and polished, the inside of amonites can be full of crystal.










It might have been 2 there, and one under the impression.

I'd have a bash at exposing it, the shell is normally a lot tougher than the matrix surounding it. It might not break through the center of it. But around it exposing a side of the fossil.

Might break it in half though


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

I'd take the ammonite to a shop that cuts crystals. They would not only cut it for you but polish it as well.
The matrix looks like granite to me and if it is then you're looking at a hardness of 7 on the Mohs scale. Unless you have a specialist cutting wheel you may break it if you're cutting it yourself.


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

A3DFU said:


> I'd take the ammonite to a shop that cuts crystals. They would not only cut it for you but polish it as well.
> The matrix looks like granite to me and if it is then you're looking at a hardness of 7 on the Mohs scale. Unless you have a specialist cutting wheel you may break it if you're cutting it yourself.


Its probably limestone, granite is an igneous rock, you dont get fossils in it. You get fossils in sedimentary rocks.


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## Otley (May 15, 2013)

Won't be cutting it myself. The fracture looks unstable. The second I start to do anything with it, the whole thing will break apart and I'll be left with nothing worthwhile. (Sounds remarkably like one of my previous relationships that.) :lol:


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

brian1978 said:


> A3DFU said:
> 
> 
> > I'd take the ammonite to a shop that cuts crystals. They would not only cut it for you but polish it as well.
> ...


Not quite correct Brian. Please check here:

http://www.mineralienatlas.de/lexikon/i ... %20granite

I know the page is in German but you can use their on-line translate function.
[ps, I'm a chemical engineer by my first profession, have grown many crystals in lab conditions and I work with crystals since many, many years. That of course doesn't mean to say it's not limestone but only a chemical analysis would clarify that; the look however is one of granite to me]


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

A3DFU said:


> brian1978 said:
> 
> 
> > A3DFU said:
> ...


I will check that out in a minuit. But...

Granite in the geologists term is sn igenous rock formed from magma. This would obviously destroy organic matter.

You can get a form of granite that is borderline igneous sedementry that forms from ashfall, but its much softer. The granite you are refering to (7 on mohs) is a quartz rich matrix formed underground diectly from magma which is molten for probably millions of years. No large organic matter exists hers, hence no fossils.

You do get people incorrectly refering to any hard rock as "granite"

I studied geology also as part of an environmental chemestry HND. and have had an amature interest in it for about 30 years 

Just had a look, thats orbicular granite, you dont get fossils in it either. It looks like fossils but its not real fossils, its a plutonic rock and im 99% sure you dont have that in yorkshire anyway


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

http://www.mineralienatlas.de/lexikon/i ... ock=Granit

I didn't suggest the shapes in orbitular granite were fossils by the way :lol:


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## Otley (May 15, 2013)

Is there a simple experiment I can carry out to determine what type of rock this is? [smiley=bomb.gif]


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

Yea, where exactly in west yorkshire are you, ill check a geological map and let you know the age of the fossil and what rock type it is.

Im fairly sure its limestone though. The white costal area is magnesian limestone, the black is coal measures (slate) like where I found the fish and the yellow is sandstone.

Its permian rocks, makes your fossil about 260million years old


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## Otley (May 15, 2013)

It was found on Easington beach, on Yorkshires East coast, just North of Spurn Point.
The side of the rock has a slate like appearance (to me anyway.) It appears to be made up of thin layers. I will try to get a decent photo tomorrow. Under the influence of Joshua Tetley's finest at the moment. [smiley=cheers.gif]


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

Otley TT QS said:


> Is there a simple experiment I can carry out to determine what type of rock this is? [smiley=bomb.gif]


If you can scratch the surface of the rock easily with a copper coin and you get a white mark along the scratch line it might be limestone


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

Otley TT QS said:


> It was found on Easington beach, on Yorkshires East coast, just North of Spurn Point.
> The side of the rock has a slate like appearance (to me anyway.) It appears to be made up of thin layers. I will try to get a decent photo tomorrow. Under the influence of Joshua Tetley's finest at the moment. [smiley=cheers.gif]


Sounds like coal measures. Its sedimentary rocks typical of that area m8.



A3DFU said:


> Otley TT QS said:
> 
> 
> > Is there a simple experiment I can carry out to determine what type of rock this is? [smiley=bomb.gif]
> ...


Slate from coal measures will do the same. If it splits into sheets its slate, its its a solid mass its limestone. Its very similar stuff.

One thing I know is its definatly not granite 

But I knew that the very instant I saw a shell in it :wink:


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## Otley (May 15, 2013)

Scratched it with a coin, no white marks. Tried several times in different places. Colour stays the same only shinier.


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

Otley TT QS said:


> Scratched it with a coin, no white marks. Tried several times in different places. Colour stays the same only shinier.


Its slate oatley if it cleaves into layers. If it is get a chisel and cleave it directly above the fossil. It should split nice.


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## Macester (May 24, 2014)

awesome fossil, on my doorstep too in yorkshire, I'll have to try and find some myself!


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

brian1978 said:


> Otley TT QS said:
> 
> 
> > Scratched it with a coin, no white marks. Tried several times in different places. Colour stays the same only shinier.
> ...


Brian, if you scratch slate with a copper coin it leaves white marks so no need to cleave it and destroy the fossil.
[try the copper test for yourself on a piece you know is slate if you have any doubts]

I just finished a weekend course and one of the ladies brought a "blue Tiger's Eye" in, proudly telling me how rare it was. She bought it in good faith but I had to tell her that
a) Tiger's eyes don't exist in blue and
b) it was blue lace agate

As much as they are both Silicon oxide the microscopic inclusions are different giving each a different colour and appearance.

Back to Oatley's find:
You may want to lick it (yes lick it); if it's acidic it might be granite. 
You could try an acid on a hidden part of the back of it. If it fizzes it might be limestone. Not sure if household vinegar or lemon will be strong enough acids but you could try. Make sure you was the acid of promptly after your experiment.


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

A3DFU said:


> brian1978 said:
> 
> 
> > Otley TT QS said:
> ...


Dont lick it oatley. Its not frikkin granite :lol: :lol: :lol:

Seriously, how do I KNOW this.

1 its got a fossil in it.
2 it doesn't look like granite
3 you dont get granite in that part of Yorkshire.

I would bet my house on it not being a lump of granite.

I also just scratched a lump of slate I have with a 1p coin. no white mark..... maybe its because copper coins are not made of copper.


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

brian1978 said:


> Seriously, how do I KNOW this.


I'm glad you're all KNOWING, Brian. Must be a great feeling. I take my hat off to you










If you re-read my last post I said "it might be granite/limestone". Unless we've seen it in real life it's difficult to say exactly what it is. At least I'm making some suggestions in how to test using ordinary house hold ways. :?



brian1978 said:


> I also just scratched a lump of slate I have with a 1p coin. no white mark..... maybe its because copper coins are not made of copper.


Your slate must be different from mine and your 1p or 2p coin different from mine again :wink:


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## Skeee (Jun 9, 2009)

Twenty five posts about fossils and nothing from Hoggy.









_Title must have scared him away!_









_
Aren't 'Copper coins' Copper and Nickel?_


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## Otley (May 15, 2013)

25 posts and no one's noticed my name doesn't have an A in it! :roll:


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

Otley TT QS said:


> 25 posts and no one's noticed my name doesn't have an A in it! :roll:


Yup, sorry 

I know exactly where Otley is and my sons played on the swings in the park donkey's years ago, so no excuse for me to have spelled your forum name wrong


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## Otley (May 15, 2013)

That's ok, I was only winding you up. :twisted: 
Pics of the sides as promised. Doesn't taste of anything. Going to chip a tiny bit off the back and try acid test at weekend.


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## Otley (May 15, 2013)

Macester said:


> awesome fossil, on my doorstep too in yorkshire, I'll have to try and find some myself!


Mother in law finds at least one every time she goes on beach. Get out there and have a look! Even if you don't find any you get a nice walk on the beach in the fresh air.


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

Otley TT QS said:


> That's ok, I was only winding you up. :twisted:






Otley TT QS said:


> try acid test at weekend.


Not sure if it's still possible to get battery acid, which would be stronger than vinegar or lemon juice


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## Otley (May 15, 2013)

I will be able to get battery acid. Will let you know result.


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

I found a nice piece of flint recently when in Avebury. I'm thinking of taking it to Manchester Minerals in Stockport as I can polish crystals and I make jewellery but I have no means of cutting a larger piece

http://stockport.cylex-uk.co.uk/company ... 28581.html


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

Otley TT QS said:


> I will be able to get battery acid. Will let you know result.


Excellent 8)


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

A3DFU said:


> brian1978 said:
> 
> 
> > Seriously, how do I KNOW this.
> ...


I dont know everything dani. But I KNOW thats not granite because shells dont swim 7miles under the ground in 800*C magma :wink:

Anyhoos here a bit of slate it is (100% slate as its bedrock from coal measures). and a 2p coin, and the very not white scratch it just made 










Im fairly sure its slate, my test was looking at a geologial map of the area with the rock types.


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

Hmmm, as I said Brian, without seein and feeling it, doing some tests it's not really possible to say to material Otley's find is.

Here is just one of the many many pages on granite in England:

http://www.buildingconservation.com/art ... ofages.htm

And from this website:



> Granite was quarried in all corners of the British Isles, initially from *coastal* locations and transported by sea to the major urban centres. The UK was once a major producer of granite, particularly in the 19th century, and it was exported abroad to Europe, America and Australasia. The large variety of textures and colours present in British granite reflects the range of geological ages and compositional variation of granite throughout the United Kingdom.
> 
> In the British Isles, intrusions of granite and related igneous rocks are present in a variety of localities, and range widely in geological age and origin. Differences in mineral composition and conditions of emplacement mean that British granites show a wide range of colours and textures.


*But:* I never said Otley's fossil is definitely granite. All I said was that it *looks* like granite and I offered a few initial tests.
If Otley was happy for me to take it to Berlin next time I go (later this year) I could take it to the Institute of Mineralogy at the Berlin University where I still have connections and find out *without* chipping/cleaving it.


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

A3DFU said:


> Hmmm, as I said Brian, without seein and feeling it, doing some tests it's not really possible to say to material Otley's find is.
> 
> Here is just one of the many many pages on granite in England:
> 
> ...


Id have a go at cleaving it, Its only a rock with what may be a fossil in it, the top white thing that looks like a fossil isnt actually a fossil. Its an impression where a fossil was. So if otley messes it up attempting to cleave it its no biggy. Its still a neat find though.  
I think there may be a fossil under it, on the lower side you can see what looks like the top of another shell. as its layered it should split nicely along the grain of the sedementry layers exposing it nicely.

It really doesnt look anything like granite Dani, granite has a nice crystalline structure. 
the fact otley managed to scratch it at all confirms this cannot be granite, unless yorkshire has coins made of corundum 

Im pretty sure its slate from the coalmeasures near the Yorkshire coast.

The fact they origonally quarried granite on the coast has nothing to do where you are more likely to find it, the mineral would have formed long before any coast existed, they quarried it here as the sea had done the hard work exposing it.

Limestone is a definate possibility, but the clearly defined layers indicate to me its slate.


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## NickG (Aug 15, 2013)

brian1978 said:


> Broke open a rock at the river when walking the dog today (I normally do this to find little fossel shells) and found this.....
> 
> Looks like a fish.  Think its the missing link? :lol: :lol: :lol:


Awesome find Brian!!



Otley TT QS said:


> Love finding things like this at the caravan on Yorkshires constantly eroding East coast. This is my latest find.


I live very close to the Hanson brick pits in Whittlesey where they have made an area called King's **** Nature Reserve. They have a "Fossil digging" area and have found literally hundreds here! I have no idea what type they are, but they're all preserved in what i think will be clay. Look cool though!


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## Otley (May 15, 2013)

Tried the 'acid test' Dani, only bubbles very slightly, no fizzing whatsoever. The part where the acid touched has turned a lot lighter in colour.


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

i dont know if you have a geiger ( sp ? ) counter to hand Otley, but granite is very radio active , maybe most of all rocks, you might be able to get a comparitive reading from it, anyways dont be siting on it or licking it too much just incase the fish man is right !!


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## Otley (May 15, 2013)

Tried out my new geiger counter Roddy, no clicks whatsoever!
C'mon brother.... I'm a drayman, nae a test tube jockey. :roll:


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