# Turning down "free" money...



## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/m ... 239187.stm

If I read that right, the UK government is handing out "free" money to be invested or saved on behalf of the child...

... which is being refused by some Muslims on ethical grounds, as the accounts it is being paid into don't comply with Islamic laws on banking and finance.

One instance where I think we should just say "tough shit". It complies with the UK finance and banking laws. Redistribute it to people who WILL accept it...

Discuss.


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

My understanding is that they do nothing then the government will put it into a savings account.

It would be unfair on the child to be deprived of the money because his parents don't agree. Put the money in a savings account and let them decide for themselves when they're 18.


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

scoTTy said:


> My understanding is that they do nothing then the government will put it into a savings account.
> 
> It would be unfair on the child to be deprived of the money because his parents don't agree. Put the money in a savings account and let them decide for themselves when they're 18.


This wouldn't be right either. The funds is there to help you raise your child not for the child to have when it becomes an adult.

The government should give the money to people that need them today and can have them or simply invest it to more speed cameras.


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## M T Pickering (Aug 11, 2004)

Instead exchange it for a one way flight to a Muslim country of their choice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

M T Pickering said:


> Instead exchange it for a one way flight to a Muslim country of their choice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


hehehehe...


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

M T Pickering said:


> Instead exchange it for a one way flight to a Muslim country of their choice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


 :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## sonicmonkey (Mar 20, 2004)

vlastan said:


> M T Pickering said:
> 
> 
> > Instead exchange it for a one way flight to a Muslim country of their choice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> ...


Here we go again :?


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## paulb (May 6, 2002)

vlastan said:


> scoTTy said:
> 
> 
> > This wouldn't be right either. The funds is there to help you raise your child not for the child to have when it becomes an adult.
> ...


So it is exactly what Paul said. For the child when they turn 18. Oh, and the above is a transcript from Radio 4's "Moneybox" so I think is a reliable source


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

paulb said:


> vlastan said:
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> 
> > scoTTy said:
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I am certainly not arrogant. But you are right on this and I got the facts wrong.

This is indeed money for when the child becomes 18 years old. I didn' t read the article properly.


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

sonicmonkey said:


> vlastan said:
> 
> 
> > M T Pickering said:
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LOL...I didn't start this!! I was the third on the line and you ignored the other two comments to come straight to me. That is not fair.


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## Steve_Mc (May 6, 2002)

Absolutely correct Paul. The government decided that too many kids grow up without savings, so decided to start this scheme to give them something to start building their lives with when they turn 18.

On the original point Tim, I think the conclusion that the Muslim community are shunning free money is a little emotive. Strict Sharia law forbids the earning of interest, and as such strict Muslims are unable to use Western style banking products. Most UK banks offer Islamic banking products structured to avoid interest to satisfy Sharia requirements. The link you posted simply states that no institution currently offerring CTF products offer a Sharia-compliant account, which is odd given our current touchy-feely government and also that most large institutions offer Islamic products already (but not as a CTF).

I can only think it is because 1) most institutions make little money from Islamic banking products as the takeup is low 2) CTF products as a whole are projected to make very little money. In short there is no incentive for anyone to offer a Sharia-compliant account, so no-one offers one - but nowhere do I seem Muslims telling the govenrment to shove their Â£250 up their arse :?



> Instead exchange it for a one way flight to a Muslim country of their choice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I'm sure Robert Kilroy-Silk is looking forward to your vote :?


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

What I don't understand is why the religion dictates how you invest your money. Can anybody explain me the origin behind this?


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## Steve_Mc (May 6, 2002)

vlastan said:


> What I don't understand is why the religion dictates how you invest your money. Can anybody explain me the origin behind this?


I only have a hazy memory from touching on Islamic banking as part of my degree, but IIRC it basically is that the charging of usury (interest) is seen as wrong and taking advantage of fellow mankind. A Western economic model is more about personal gain and reward whereas the Islamic community take a more philanthropic approach and regard charging interest as unethical. More obviously, Islamic banking saving products are not allowed to invest in companies related to alcohol, tobacco and other "sin" products.

It's pretty easy to structure products to comply with these requirements e.g. mortgages being replaced by a rent mechanism, and if more of the Muslim community decide they want them then I'm sure more banks will offer them. As it is I doubt demand is too great and most Muslims are happy to sin and pay and receive interest - just as most Christians I'm sure covet their neighbour's ass from time to time :wink: :wink:


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

Steve_Mc said:


> vlastan said:
> 
> 
> > What I don't understand is why the religion dictates how you invest your money. Can anybody explain me the origin behind this?
> ...


LOL.

That is why I think a religion is full with lies and deception. The values that the Muslim religion dictates are good values, although a bit old fashioned these days. Same applies to the 10 commandments. The 10 commandments clearly state what we should do and what we shouldn't...but we still commit sins. We are all going to hell one day. :wink:


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## imster (Apr 26, 2003)

M T Pickering said:


> Instead exchange it for a one way flight to a Muslim country of their choice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Fuckin hell how old are you?


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

Steve_Mc said:


> vlastan said:
> 
> 
> > What I don't understand is why the religion dictates how you invest your money. Can anybody explain me the origin behind this?
> ...


Where do you draw the line, though?

The money the government is handing out is part of a HUGE pot of taxation they receive - some of it from alcohol, cigarettes etc.

I don't think it is the job of the UK government to comply with Sharia Law in this matter. When the UK finally becomes a Muslim country, then maybe... but whilst we're a Christian nation, I think we should draw the line SOMEWHERE...

If it is against the religion of the Muslims to accept this "tainted" money on behalf of their offspring, then it is THEIR right to refuse it. That doesn't mean the government has to find alternative methods to distribute it to them.

Honestly, you would NOT expect this sort of treatment if you lived as a Christian in a Muslim country...


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

vlastan said:


> scoTTy said:
> 
> 
> > My understanding is that they do nothing then the government will put it into a savings account.
> ...


WRONG.

The fund is for the child when they turn 18, not to assist in their upbringing. Â£250 would just about cover 2 months for nappies & food 

Just got the details a couple fo weeks ago for young Joshua. Personally i think its a good move & will go some way to help him with things like deposit on a house or tuition fees etc.

Just realised that V has already been pulled up on his mistake.

To the original point, if they Muslims don't want the money, Joshua will quite happily accept their dosh.


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## Hannibal (Dec 1, 2003)

I personally don't see much point in the original idea of giving the kids Â£250 - it seems more of a publicity stunt for the government than anything else. If the Muslims don't want the money, then fine, don't take it, but it seems ludicrous for the government to be looking at other ways to give them the cash, why not just put the 'unwanted' money aside for something else, or up the money for everyone else (a risky strategy as I can see how some people may change their minds!)

H 2p


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## raven (May 7, 2002)

I also think the Â£250 "gift" is a publicity gimmick. I hate how this government tax us so heavily and then hand it out as if it's a gift and we should be grateful. How about they don't take it in the first place? A good by-product of this would be that they wouldn't have to employ an army of public sector administrators (with jobs for life and a top of the range pension).


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## Dotti (Mar 9, 2003)

Not all children will qualify for this though. It is for babies born over certain dates that will qualify.


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## zedman (Jan 31, 2005)

so we just hating muslims today then? i see nobody has a problem with the ethical investors having issue finding a CTF ('lack of choice') but then that wasnt in the title of the article, it was in the main text, is that why nobody read it? do u all read books with only pictures in too? come on guys i must say this is a mile below the standard i usually read in this forum!


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

I'd happily sign up for a fund catering solely to "unethical investments" providing the income levels were higher than the norm.


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## stephengreen (May 6, 2002)

why are muslims allowed to profit from mankind by running a corner shop but not by charging interest in a bank?


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

^Abi^ said:


> Not all children will qualify for this though. It is for babies born over certain dates that will qualify.


1st Sept *2002*

I don't think we could afford to back date it 100 or 1000 years! :roll: :wink:


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## sonicmonkey (Mar 20, 2004)

stephengreen said:


> why are muslims allowed to profit from mankind by running a corner shop but not by charging interest in a bank?


How much effort goes in to earning an interest?

Fcuk me you'd think the bigoted amongst us would rejoice at a minority *NOT* taking the money!

And just for the record the majority of Muslims I know distribute the money earned in interest in "normal" bank accounts to charity once a year. Maybe we could have a separate similarly irrational flame about that?

Did anybody take a second to think that the *vast majority* of Muslims would be happy to accept the savings account and deal with the interest issue (if they perceived it as a problem) in the way they have done for years already? But then again that doesn't make headlines does it? You are all big and ugly enough to work that out for yourselves.

Before diving in with your size 10's take a few minutes to compose yourself and engage in rational thinking. Try it, it doesn't hurt.


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## imster (Apr 26, 2003)

sonicmonkey said:


> stephengreen said:
> 
> 
> > why are muslims allowed to profit from mankind by running a corner shop but not by charging interest in a bank?
> ...


here here....


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## imster (Apr 26, 2003)

stephengreen said:


> why are muslims allowed to profit from mankind by running a corner shop but not by charging interest in a bank?


haha! funny one, muslims who run corner shops!

We run other things besides corner shops :roll:


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

sonicmonkey said:


> stephengreen said:
> 
> 
> > why are muslims allowed to profit from mankind by running a corner shop but not by charging interest in a bank?
> ...


I'm fully aware that only a small minority of Muslims are likely to have a problem with it.

If anything, that makes catering to the extremeties of a "foreign" religion even more stupid, if the vast majority actually accept the current situation and work out a strategy themselves (charitable donation, etc).

Having a pop at the government for pandering to relgious "extremes" which lie far outside our own culture is still possible, even in a PC world, and isn't itself un-PC.

If you took the trouble to have a think about what I said, and not what you THINK I might have said, you'd maybe have a better understanding...

Sharia Law isn't mandatory in a Christian society. We shouldn't create government policy that revolves around it.


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## Steve_Mc (May 6, 2002)

Nobody is having a pop at the government are they? Nor is anyone demanding a change in government policy! The article simply states that some Muslims (those who wish to comply strictly to their religious doctrine) would like a Sharia-compliant account as no current institution offers one. Where is anyone "having a pop"?


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

Steve_Mc said:


> Nobody is having a pop at the government are they? Nor is anyone demanding a change in government policy! The article simply states that some Muslims (those who wish to comply strictly to their religious doctrine) would like a Sharia-compliant account as no current institution offers one. Where is anyone "having a pop"?


*I* am...


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## sonicmonkey (Mar 20, 2004)

I did take the time read your original post and I still don't understand why one would have a problem with expanding investment opportunities.

We've had ethical investment for years, at a request of a minorities minority they've asked if they could invest the money in an ethical fund and forgo any interest. Scratch the surface and that's what Sharia compliant account means - "ethical". I have no problem with that, nor do I see the cultural makeup of this country crumbling to such a insignificant request.

Would you have caused such a fuss if a wheatgrass drinking leftie requested ethical investment? Some how I don't think so, use an alien word "_request for Sharia compliant account_" and people start to panic :roll:

And besides, as taxpayers they have every right to request ethical investment regardless of colour/religion just as the government has the right to say no.


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## shelley (Nov 22, 2004)

jampott said:


> Steve_Mc said:
> 
> 
> > Nobody is having a pop at the government are they? Nor is anyone demanding a change in government policy! The article simply states that some Muslims (those who wish to comply strictly to their religious doctrine) would like a Sharia-compliant account as no current institution offers one. Where is anyone "having a pop"?
> ...


Why though?


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## zedman (Jan 31, 2005)

imster said:


> stephengreen said:
> 
> 
> > why are muslims allowed to profit from mankind by running a corner shop but not by charging interest in a bank?
> ...


wonder why we bother though, the funny thing is its not us Muslim people who run the majority of corner shops, its another religion, but they've got brown skin too! Too much for some of the narrow minds around here!!

I suppose we all look the same too?


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## imster (Apr 26, 2003)

Steve_Mc said:


> The article simply states that some Muslims (those who wish to comply strictly to their religious doctrine) would like a Sharia-compliant account as no current institution offers one.


AFAIK there is a bank which is fully Sharia-compliant, not too sure of the bank name but there is a branch near the Hilton Metropole on Edgeware Road in London.


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

zedman said:


> imster said:
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> > stephengreen said:
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It was just an example. It can be any job of course.


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

sonicmonkey said:


> And besides, as taxpayers they have every right to request ethical investment regardless of colour/religion just as the government has the right to say no.


It can be too expensive to create ethical investment for a minority. We don't really know how many families are affected by this...can it be a few hundred or thousand??

But again we don't even know if these people are taxpayers...they could be living on benefits. But it is all speculation at this level of course.

Finally what happens to the fund if the family moves out of Britain?


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## shelley (Nov 22, 2004)

vlastan said:


> It can be too expensive to create ethical investment for a minority. We don't really know how many families are affected by this...can it be a few hundred or thousand??
> 
> But again we don't even know if these people are taxpayers...they could be living on benefits. But it is all speculation at this level of course.
> 
> Finally what happens to the fund if the family moves out of Britain?


The point is its not the government who will be providing the investment vehicle - the government is just providing the initial cash to be used.

It is up to the commercial providers of Child Trust Funds to determine if there is sufficient demand to set up one that is Sharia compliant. Given there are Islamic banks that provide other banking services, they may too provide CTFs (at no cost to the government).

Not quite sure what you mean by _these_ people, but the money given by the government is for the future benefit of the child, so whether the parents pay tax or not is irrelevant.

If the family move out of Britain (and this again applies to every family that receives money) I guess the child would still be entitled to the money when they are 18.


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## digimeisTTer (Apr 27, 2004)

So how do these Sharia compliant banks make money then or are they non profit making organisations? :?


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## shelley (Nov 22, 2004)

digimeisTTer said:


> So how do these Sharia compliant banks make money then or are they non profit making organisations? :?


Nope - they are profit making. Basically they can enter into investments that avoid a fairly narrow definition of 'interest', even if the reality of the transaction involves an implicit payment of interest (e.g. through a leasing arrangement)

This gives some more idea of how they make money.

http://www.islamic-bank.com/islamicbank ... efMudaraba


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## Steve_Mc (May 6, 2002)

jampott said:


> Steve_Mc said:
> 
> 
> > Nobody is having a pop at the government are they? Nor is anyone demanding a change in government policy! The article simply states that some Muslims (those who wish to comply strictly to their religious doctrine) would like a Sharia-compliant account as no current institution offers one. Where is anyone "having a pop"?
> ...


Hang on a minute...so, you were originally flaming the Muslim community for not accepting free money (judging by the thread title) - they clearly are not turning down the money, just commenting on their desire for a suitable vehicle into which they can pay the cash.

But now it appears you are flaming the government for pandering to a small religious minority, which the government clearly aren't, as it is up to the financial institutions to decide if they want to offer a Sharia-compliant CTF product or not, and nothing to do with the government.

In short there is no flame here, expect perhaps one from me about throwaway bigotry from one or two on this thread :?


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## silkman (Jul 29, 2004)

'in' 'ell!

I completely missed this thread :lol:

Weeeeeeell, after giving it some thought, I could certainly start a muslim fund paying 0% APR.

It would be fully in-line with muslim principles as well as ethical investing but it will pay no interest (all profits would go to cover expenses - MINE) :lol:

Partners anyone?

:roll:


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

silkman said:


> 'in' 'ell!
> 
> I completely missed this thread :lol:
> 
> ...


Me me me me!! :wink:


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## digimeisTTer (Apr 27, 2004)

shelley said:


> digimeisTTer said:
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> 
> > So how do these Sharia compliant banks make money then or are they non profit making organisations? :?
> ...


what?? elaborate please. especially the implicit part.

are they a bank or a money holding facility, wheras they use other peoples money to make money vis a vis a bank and no doubt their investements yield a return in the same way traditional banking does. :?


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## shelley (Nov 22, 2004)

digimeisTTer said:


> shelley said:
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> > digimeisTTer said:
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I'm not sure I fully understand your question but I'll try and answer it:

One example of is how you might buy a house with finance scheme from an islamic bank, compared with a traditional mortgage.

Under the scheme, the bank buys the property and leases it back to the customer over an agreed term.

The customer makes monthly payments made up of rent and contributions towards the purchase price. The bank then owns the property until customers have made their final payment.

At no point is the customer paying interest - the paying of â€˜rentâ€™ is seen as payment for use of the property, not as a charge for borrowing money, but the bank still makes money on this (i.e. the rent is an implicit form of interest but isn't defined as such under sharia law).

The only downside of this (for the customer) compared to a normal mortgage is that because legally the ownership of the house has been changed twice, they are stuck with two lots of stamp duty to pay.


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## Carlos (May 6, 2002)

My business partners and I are in the process of setting up an investment vehicle for people who do not believe in receiving interest. It will be a deposit account that pays no interest, so if you pay in your Â£250 now, in 18 years time it will be worth exactly Â£250.

In the meantime we plan to invest the deposits in a broad portfolio of spectacularly immoral products. These will all be fully hedged to remove the risk. For instance, a sizeable chunk of money will be placed into vaseline futures, with an equal amount oppositely invested into a suitable hedging derivative, such as a put option on the size of Vlastan's salary.

It can't fail.


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