# Motorcyclists



## scottm (May 7, 2002)

I'm sure motorcyclists are very nice people. In fact I know they are, I know plenty of them. I also know they are very vulnerable out on the road - as a car driver I'm repeatedly told to look out for them, etc.

*So why do they all do totally stupid things and purposely put themselves in dangerous situations and make themselves even more vulnerable?*

Was on a two-lane motorway the other day (the A329M, for those who know it), overtaking a stream of slower traffic. I was travelling, ahem, plenty fast enough for the conditions, it's not like I was hogging the outside lane for no good reason. But Mr Biker still comes and sits on my rear bumper, stupid enough in itself.

But then... I pass the last lorry, and quite clearly start moving back into the left hand lane, being very aware of Mr Biker in a big hurry to get past, so am trying to courteously get out of his way. So what does he do? Rather than waiting a couple of seconds for me to move out of the way, he moves to the left and tries to overtake me on the left while I'm in the middle of changing lanes!?!?!?!?

If I hadn't been being purposely watching his every move, I would have slammed into the side of him. As it was I hastily pulled out again and let him pass. Complete idiot. But no doubt if I had hit him, I would have been deemed to be at fault for not noticing him, etc, etc, etc.

There was an ad on TV recently, aimed at car drivers, about being observant for motorcyclists. The tag line was "now you see him, now you don't." The sequence of events was roughly:

Car driver looks in mirror, sees motorbike behind[/*]
Car driver looks ahead, puts on indicator to turn right[/*]
Car driver looks in mirror again, bike is still behind[/*]
Car driver looks ahead and is preparing to turn right[/*]
Car driver looks in mirror, motorbike no longer there[/*]
Car driver turns right[/*]
Motorbike, which was in the process of overtaking car (hence not visible in mirror above), hits driver's side of car[/*]

The ad was trying to say that this accident was the car driver's fault.... Errr, *NO*. The motorcyclist could quite clearly see the car was indicating right and about to turn right, and so was totally in the wrong to attempt to overtake at that point. But the fictional biker in the ad was just demonstrating the mentality that seems to pervade real bikers... that because they're "vulnerable" and car drivers are supposed to make allowance for that, that therefore bikers have absolute right of way and priority over all other traffic in every situation. Somehow, their "vulnerability" actually makes them think that they can go around assuming that they're not vulnerable. And innocent car drivers take the blame.

OK, I'm sure there are plenty of cases where cars have been responsible for bike accidents. But bikers: give yourselves a chance! I do my best to be observant, but if you're going to be plainly stupid, I can't necessarily react safely to that! Yes, cars have to look out for you, but that doesn't obviate your responsibility to be safe as well!


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## scottm (May 7, 2002)

And another thing...

Suppose a car is parked at the side of the road, so it is too narrow for two cars to pass. You're approaching the parked car, it's on the other side of the road so you kind-of have priority (but not the legal right of way, I suppose I should mention) to keep going. A car coming the other way should/will stop and let you pass first. A biker coming the other way will keep going, and expect you to move over to the left to give them room. Reasonable, I suppose, if there is room for you both to pass. Biker will get very aggressive if you do not give him/her room to pass, and will tell you off (even if only silently mouthing into his own helment) for not being observant and seeing him/her. It won't even occur to the biker that maybe they should have waited until you'd passed.

But... if the car is on your side of the road, and a biker is coming the other way... will the biker move to the left, leaving room for you both to pass? No, the biker will purposely sit in the centre of the road so there is no room for two. They do this because they (probably correctly) think it would be unsafe for both of you to pass the car at the same time. Errr... but they've just contradicted their own behaviour as described in the previous paragraph.

Final example... near where I work there is a section of road by a busy motorway junction. It has three lanes, traffic can feed into any of these lanes, then less than two hundred yards later the three lanes feed off in different directions. So at peak times, there is a lot of traffic busily changing lanes in a very short distance, and travelling quite fast. Accepted courtesy amongst car drivers is that if a car is indicating to change lane, whether it be on your left pulling out right or on your right pulling in left, you don't overtake it, you let it change lane, because that car doesn't have very much road left in which to do it. There are no signs or rules saying that's what we should do, everyone just courteously does it.

Except the motorcyclists. They tear down this road, weaving through the traffic, overtaking on left (illegal)or right, or even squeezing down the white line between lanes (and between cars). They completely ignore cars indicating or changing lanes. They ride far too fast for the traffic conditions, making it hard for drivers to even see the biker approaching from behind (because of the traffic density), particularly if the biker pulls out from behind another car at the last second. But if any car pulls out in front of a biker, even if the car has no option because of where he's going at the next junction, the biker goes ballistic, again screaming and shouting about non-observant drivers. It doesn't even occur to the biker that maybe he/she shouldn't have been going so fast, or trying to overtake in such a busy place, or that maybe they could have just courteously held back for a second or two and actually let the car pull out. Not just an isolated occurrence, I see it happen regularly.

Sorry bikers, you can't have your cake and eat it. You don't own the road. None of us does, we should all be courteous to each other all the time. You have to take at least some responsibility for your own safety, it's not always the car's fault.


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## kmpowell (May 6, 2002)

That is one hell of a rant, with not a truer word ever said!!!

Am i the one who is going to bounce across the front of your motorcycle smashimg my body into little bits? NO!!!

Am i the one who is going to end up lying on the side of the road with paramedics stretchering me away? NO!!!!

JUST FUCKING THINK ABOUT IT!!!!!!

And what is the fucking point in those coloured (purple, green etc) headlamps?!!!!!!!! FUCKERS!!!!

Im not going to encourage it, but next time you are sat in a 2 lane trafic jam and you get the stupid tossers weaving in and out of the gaps, play the 'alien' game(you will work it out  ), it is fun after a hard days work and all you want to do is get home.


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

Scott:

As a biker, i feel it my duty to respond ;D. I can't speak for every bikers actions or even those of every car driver, you get bad motorcyclists in the same way you get bad car drivers, but you have slightly contradicted yourself in your initial statement.

You wrote,

"If I hadn't been being purposely watching his every move, I would have slammed into the side of him. As it was I hastily pulled out again and let him pass. Complete idiot. But no doubt if I had hit him, I would have been deemed to be at fault for not noticing him, etc, etc, etc"

How did the motorcyclist know you'd been watching his every move? from inside a crash helmet, its impossible for a rider to see your eye movements (its almost impossible for a car driver). By experience, most car drivers do not perform a lifesaver i.e. look over a respective shoulder for a final check before executing an action. I have almost come a cropper on a handful of occasions, due to car drivers not noticing me (was not undertaking or speeding). My bike is very large, bright red & always has the headlamps on.

I will contradict myself, when it comes to motorcyclists in London. These people in the main are a different breed and quite often take there life into there own hands by undertaking and speeding through the tightest of gaps.

Bikes & bikers are very vulnerable and as such, we assume that the car driver has not noticed us & is not paying real attention (is quite often the case). Even in the undertaking situation you mention, if it was a fairly large bike, then he could/would have undertaken you with very little risk to himself, a quick snap of the wrist and he's past you.


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

Kev is a tosser  ;D Glad i've never brought the bike to one of the cruises, Kev would try to kill me 

We weave in & out of traffic, because we can & you can't  ;D

If you had a bike, you'd do exactly the same.


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## r1 (Oct 31, 2002)

Some good points points scott but as has already been pointed out unless you ride it's hard for you to know how easy it is (it may look dangerous but a lot of the time it really isn't).

Kev, you're the sort of twat that bikers hate. If you played the 'aliens' game with me you'd find yourself minus a wing mirror!!


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## kmpowell (May 6, 2002)

> Kev, you're the sort of twat that bikers hate. If you played the 'aliens' game with me you'd find yourself minus a wing mirror!!


I have lost 2 mirrors to twats on bikes trying to squeeze through while weaving, they both just drove off!!!! Fuckers cost me Â£100 in the Corsa and Â£300 in the TTC!!!! Thats why i have the probem.


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

Kev:

Do you want the mirrors back? I never realised they were yours & they've been in my garage for the past few months  ;D


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## NickP (May 6, 2002)

;D


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2002)

I have only ever had a biker clip my mirror once. It was in traffic, he stopped pointed out the scratch he had made on the glass and asked if I would like him to pay for it. Fair enough I say.

Never hit a car mirror on my own bike though i've been nearly kebabed a few times by odd bits of metal that seem to frequently appear sticking out the back of lorries.


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## TTotal (Aug 12, 2002)

Scott, a lot of bikers here on this forum will agree with some of what you have to say, but...

You are talking about a few idiots. Generally bikers are carefull considerate road users.
How do you judge your standard of driving against all the other car users ? 
Would you think the other car users on the roads would have a generalism about your driving tactics too, can you say that you have never taken advantage of an empty lane eh ?

There is room for us all and there must be give and take, equally there will be good or bad out there - that is life .  John


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## scottm (May 7, 2002)

Blimey, wsa just my late-night rant, wasn't expecting any replies!

>> How did the motorcyclist know you'd been watching his every move

Ummm, he probably didn't, and I didn't say he did, that wasn't my point.

>> Bikes & bikers are very vulnerable and as such, we assume that the car driver has not noticed us

My experience differs... most bikers I encounter assume they have absolute right of way, and even if they don't they will assume it's still the car's obligation to get out of their way, then they will resort to the "you didn't see me" line when it all goes wrong. I'm sure there are plenty of good bikers, I just don't seem to have encountered many lately.

>> if it was a fairly large bike, then he could/would have undertaken you with very little risk to himself

You're missing the point... I was already moving into the left lane, if I had continued there would have been no gap for him. The manouevre he tried put him at great risk. Yes, I'm well aware that he had ample acceleration, etc, but that's of no use to him if he's trying to ride into a gap that isn't there! This isn't just some hypotehtical objection to his behaviour, or the illegality of overtaking on the left, it's the fact that he purposely did something that very nearly caused a very serious, and very real, accident.

>> a quick snap of the wrist and he's past you

Or, in this case, a quick snap of the wrist and he would have embedded himself in my car...

>> We weave in & out of traffic, because we can & you can't. If you had a bike, you'd do exactly the same

Using the bike's smaller size to get through gaps, etc, is fine. But doing so when it's dangerous, or when there isn't really room isn't. Bikes will always overtake a traffic jam, even if it means riding down totally the wrong side of the road and obstructing the oncoming traffic (and they act like the oncoming traffic is in the wrong for being in their way!). They then assume they have some automatic right to pull back in between two cars. Sorry, no. Leapfrog the cars if it gets you somewhere, but just to push in further along the queue is pointless and selfish.

(Yes I'm aware car drivers do the above too, and they are equally wrong. Or maybe it's me; perhaps my personal attitude of absolute courtesy to all other drivers puts me in the minority).

>> unless you ride it's hard for you to know how easy it is (it may look dangerous but a lot of the time it really isn't).

How patronising. As described above, on this occasion it was most definitely dangerous, stupid, and wrong. He caused me to swerve violently to avoid him hitting me, when all I was doing was the perfectly correct, legitimate, and predictable if he'd bothered to use his brain, thing. Anyway, if it's so "easy" for him to get past, the sensible thing to do would be for him to have waited two seconds longer, until I was entirely in the left hand lane, then just zoom past in the right hand lane.

>> you'd find yourself minus a wing mirror!!

Ahhh, so bikers advocate violence towards other motorists if they are inconvenienced in any way? Proves my point 

>> You are talking about a few idiots. Generally bikers are carefull considerate road users

As I said above and in my original post, I'm sure they are. I just guess none of them live near me!

>> How do you judge your standard of driving against all the other car users ?

As you ask, I would not presume to think I am any better than average.

>> Would you think the other car users on the roads would have a generalism about your driving tactics

I'm not generalising, everything I've said is based on a number of specific incidents.

>> can you say that you have never taken advantage of an empty lane eh ?

I'm pretty certain that no, I haven't. Not that that's really important. I can guarantee 100% that I have never tried to overtake on the left a car that is in the process of trying to change lanes to the left, recklessly ignoring the rick of a collisoin, and thereby forcing it to swerve out of my way.

And to redress the balance, car drivers are just as bad. I was at some traffic lights earlier today, yellow box in the junction, traffic jam the other side. Lights go green, I (correctly) don't move. Driver behind goes ballistic at me. Why? Where does he think he could have gone, other than ten feet forward to the back of the jam? Sigh.


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## TTotal (Aug 12, 2002)

Phew ! You got through it all, have a rest now !

AND LEAVE US BLOODY BIKERS ALONE !

;D ;D ;D John ;D ;D ;D


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## thorney (May 15, 2002)

Blimey, a lucid rant on bikers.  I can see why it pissed Scott off and as far as I can see from the description the biker was being a bit of a dick but all bikers aren't saints.

Kev is his usual self and deciding that because he's had 2 run ins with bikers then he has carte blanche to fuck off the rest of us but there we go. 

As a biker who used to regularly commute into London every day I've hit my fair share of mirrors and whenever I did I apologised. I took numerous chances going through some very tight gaps because I knew I could, however if it went wrong I knew it would be my fault.

I can inderstand why car dreivers hate bikers due to some of their actions and I can see why some bikers ride like they do, what I can't stand are people who DELIBERATELY get in the way/antagonise any other motorist - no excuse for that.


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## gcp (Aug 8, 2002)

> That is one hell of a rant, with not a truer word ever said!!!
> 
> Am i the one who is going to bounce across the front of your motorcycle smashimg my body into little bits? NO!!!
> 
> ...


When playing the alien game don't be suprised if someone stops and breaks a mirror off, especially in Bristol !


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

Scott:

I refuse to agree that your sole run in with possible a less than clever or low skilled biker suddenly makes bikers bad people or a bigger danger than you or any other car driver.

As one of a few joint TT owners / Motorcycle Riders on this forum, i feel the need to counter some of your arguements. I've had far more bad experiences with car drivers than bikers. There are not enough hours in the day, to give me enough time to comment on every time a car driver acts like a tit & annoys me with stupid driving antics.

You appear not to ne a biker Scott, so how can you make such sweeping statements. No-one is perfect & idiots are allowed to take whatever means of transport they desire, but it aint exclusive to drivers. How many times have you been frustrated at a car drivers actions, set against a bikers actions? If you rode a motorbike as well as drove a car, then you could see both sides and as already said, i do.

You're right it appears in your annoyance at the incident that took place, but look at it in context. Why don't bikers have the right to overtake traffic & pull in further ahead? one of the reasons we ride bikes is because it gives us greater freedom due to the reduction in size & increase in performance. With the possible exception of what happened to you, how can you say that a bike pulling in is dangerous, thats only your opinion, the rider may not feel that its dangerous and who's to say that your judgement on what they did is correct.

Most bike riders are very competent (we have to be) & i'm sorry if it pains people, but being a biker generally makes you a more aware car driver. Bottom line Scott, is that biking is a very different world to car driving in many ways and as such there are plenty of differences, but we have to share the roads.

Good & bad everywhere, bikers, truck drivers, car drivers, van drivers & bus drivers. We are no worse than any & probably better than most in the main.

Ps. I've never taken anyones wing mirror off (apart from Kev's ), but had plenty of near misses due to car drivers not paying attention.


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## thorney (May 15, 2002)

I've just re-read the posts and in all honesty I can't see any argument here. Scott has said "in his experience" most of the bikers he's come accross have demonstrated questionable manoevers - I can't how we can doubt this. Seems to me that you call it how you see it and Scott recognises that all bikers can't be like this.

I'm with you Paul, bikers are vulnerable users and as such some of our legitimate actions are designed to preserve us but can at the same time annoy others. Coloured light covers for example or sitting just off a cars rear quarter panel with lights in the drivers door mirror; I personally would rather annoy someone if it means it reduces the chance of me being killed but Scott isn't a baddie here.


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

Agreed Thorney. I can't query Scotts recent experience, however i was trying in a small way to defend the majority of bikers, who enjoy the benefits and thrill of riding a bike, which car drivers probably won't fully understand ;D


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## kmpowell (May 6, 2002)

> Kev is his usual self and deciding that because he's had 2 run ins with bikers then he has carte blanche to fuck off the rest of us but there we go.


I can gaurantee that 4 out of 5 nights driving home form work, when im sat in traffic on the Avon Ring road, some tosser on a motorbike or moped will try and squeeze through a gap, or weave in and out or rest themselves on somebodys car. Unfortunatly it doesn't seem to be a minority, 7 out of 10 bikes that go past me are acting in this way. Â£400 out of pocket later and behaviour like this every night coming home from work, im allowed to let of steam!!


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

What is the alien game?

Also bikers MUST squeeze through gaps. This is the reason they bought a bike in the first place...so they can go past heavey traffic. But if they do damage then they MUST pay for it.

What I hate about bikers is having their lights on 24 hours a day. Because they shine directly in your rear view mirror. So OK you piece of shit...I can see you because you blinded me, does this mean I must be courteous to you and let you go past? NO!


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## Guest (Nov 8, 2002)

So you were indicating your intention that you intended to change lane, or did the biker just read your mind?


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## kmpowell (May 6, 2002)

> What is the alien game?


You see one of the little chicken chaser riders or purple light riders weaving and squeezing through in your rear view mirror....

1. Flick on the Xenons
2. Time it just right
3. Pull your windsreen wahers on
4. Release the Aliens just as the little fucker squeezes through.

Biker gets a good drenching, game on ramon  ;D


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## Guest (Nov 8, 2002)

Yeah cool. If I thought someone did that to me and deliberately endangered my life I would stop and proceed to kick the living shit out of their car shortly followed by themselves. TT or not.


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

Yes but the bikers normally wear leather overall (as they are all gay :) and they won't get much wet!

I don't mind them overtaking or undertaking us. They have big bikes with lots of power. But they must do it safely and not risk damaging our car.

...and pinky....easy tiger!! You don't look that tough anyway!! You will probably end up getting damaged yourself!  ;D


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## kmpowell (May 6, 2002)

> Yeah cool. If I thought someone did that to me and deliberately endangered my life I would stop and proceed to kick the living shit out of their car shortly followed by themselves. TT or not.


Heres an idea, why dont some bikers not ride like complete twats,weaving and squeezing, endangering their own lives, their own property and other peoples property, in the first place. :-/


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## scottm (May 7, 2002)

>> what I can't stand are people who DELIBERATELY get in the way

Yeah, some idiot earlier today was driving just inches in front of me ;D

>> your sole run in

Actually, a large number of incidents in recent weeks.

>> suddenly makes bikers bad people

Ummm, I made a point of saying the exact opposite, in the first line of this topic!

>> or a bigger danger than you or any other car driver

I don't think bikers are a bigger danger. The entire point of this post is to say to bikers "help me to help you stay safe." That's all.

>> Why don't bikers have the right to overtake traffic & pull in further ahead?

So, if you're in a supermarket with a full trolley, and twenty people each with a basket with only a few items turn up, you'd be happy for them all to push in front of you in the queue? By all means overtake me on a bike if your superior speed makes it safe to do so and the road ahead is clear. But it's just discourteous to push into a queue (and thus slow down my journey so you can speed yours up), whether on wheels or on foot.

>> how can you say that a bike pulling in is dangerous

I didn't. I said a bike trying to ride into a gap that isn't there is dangerous.

>> Most bike riders are very competent

I don't doubt it. Although even the competent ones perhaps need to make a bit more allowance for the fact that the other drivers around them aren't necessarily so competent...

>> If you rode a motorbike as well as drove a car

I cycle a lot, so I'm well aware of car drivers' general contempt for anything on two wheels, and I ride 'defensively' to compensate (although obviously not as fast as a motorbike) so I do appreciate your point. Actually, it strengthens my own point: if we're saying that it's impossible for car drivers to understand what bikers do, then that's even more reason for bikers to behave more cautiously around cars.

>> Good & bad everywhere

I agree. I'm not making any judgements about bikers, truckers, car drivers, whatever, being good or bad or better than each other. It just worries me that some members of a vulnerable group (bikers) don't do themselves any favours.

>> sitting just off a cars rear quarter panel with lights in the drivers door mirror

Yeah, I've wondered about this, so I'm happy for a biker to educate me please. Why is it safer for a biker to sit right on my tail (or just to one side), rather than keeping a safe distance behind? You have to admit it seems counter-intuitive. If there's room to overtake, then please do so, and I'll happily make sure I give you enough space. If there isn't room, why not stay further back?

Oh, and the lights thing... yes, I see why bikers keep their lights on to make them more visible... but a bike's main beam glaring in my mirror is probably more dangerous than no light at all. Lights yes, but please make sure they don't cause glare, cheers!

>> one hell of a rant

Well, this is the flame room. At least I don't swear all over the place. Plus I think it has prompted some interesting and educational comments from the bikers present to help us car drivers understand a bit better what they do and why. All friendly banter, I hope.


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

'Sniffing the air' Â Hmmm heady whiff of testosterone.
OK. Own up. Â Whose not getting laid here?

I always give bikes space to pass and let 'em come up the inside in queuing traffic. why not?

I often harry them on the open road, under braking and in the corners. Â But that's just fun. Â Squirting washer fluid just isn't going to be helpful or endearing. :-/

But then neithe ris riding in my fucking blind spot. 

By far the majority of bikers are cool. Â I just never trust myself on one.

_posts he whilst gazing at the Westfield XTr2 brochure on desk......._


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

Vlastan:

I'm amazed you responded to this thread & quite honestly, your comments prove your ignorance in this subject.

The reason motorbikes have their headlamps on, is so that idiots in cars have a slightly better chance of seeing us (excluding the purple coloured headlamp brigade). This is so important that the goverment & BMF (British Motorcycle Federation) are discussing making this a legal requirement on a bike & hard wiring the headlamps (aka Volvos). There is also a strong arguement from the BMF against the possibility of making this a legal requirement on all cars in the near future, as if everyone had there headlamps on during daylight hours, this would remove the advantage of a lit up bike being seen.

Believe me V when i say that a significant number of car drivers are ignorant & blind to a motorcycles presence & as a biker i like many riders can vouch for this.

I like your statement about leathers & that we are all gay. I would love you to come to a ride-out or a bike venue & repeat this statement (Vlastan killed on the spot) We wear leathers for safety reasons, as sliding down the tarmac at 70mph in jeans & a t-shirt is somewhat painful. It aint a fashion statement its a safety precaution (alot of women find men in bike leathers a turn on) but then you would not know that.

This is obviously an imotive subject & we as bikers are in the minority, but please don't be small minded enough to argue against people who obviously know alot more about this subject than you do. Stick to anal sex as your specialist subject .

Rant over (TFIF)


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## TTotal (Aug 12, 2002)

Paul, you have my vote there, well said and hopefully concluded.
Vlastan eff off I am not gay !  John


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

> Vlastan:
> 
> I'm amazed you responded to this thread & quite honestly, your comments prove your ignorance in this subject.
> 
> ...


I agree Paul although it is a shame that many bikers struggle with the concept of dipped beam and still dazzle/blind other road users in their quest for visibility. And there is no point in having yer lights on if you are going to sit in the car in fronts blind spot. 

Had to smile at the levellings of gayness amongst bikers with the leather biker garb etc, from someone here who may appear to the casual observer to be absolutely obsessed with 'off-roading' (anal sex).


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## r1 (Oct 31, 2002)

Gary

Without wanting to start the whole thing up again..I hope this post helps give an understanding...

As a biker I am conscious of the fact that i sit on the rear quarter of a car when travelling on a motorway. And yes I also have my headlamp on full beam during all daylight hours.

The reason for this is that I am impatient (one of the many reasons I got a bike I think) and so want to be overtaking/undertaking where safely possible. Hence I position myself to I can over/undertake with ease whilst being clearly (and annoyingly) noticeable. After being noticed the car is ready for you to over/undertake and is looking out for you!

This all may sound a very selfish way to behave and that the obvious response is that the road wasn't built for me. As a commuter into central London from herts everyday I would call the car driver with a huge great empty car (bar the driver of course) the selfish one as he is the one that causes the congestion/pollution. The bike is more socialable than people realise and I would recommend you get a license and try it for yourself - I reckon you'd be suprised at how your driving/riding views change...


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

> Gary
> 
> Without wanting to start the whole thing up again..I hope this post helps give an understanding...
> 
> ...


R1. I understand your points and am not in general disagreement with your sentiments. I have also held a full bike license for 20 years but have not had a bike since I had an exup genesis that crippled my wrists n ankles after 75 miles, in the early 90s.... For me now the best bit of a bike is the engine. Throw away the frame etc and put the engine in a Caterham or Westfield Xtr2 and it becomes altogther more interesting, with very similar power/weight ratio to the bikes and infinitly more grip and braking power

On a specifc point, driving with your light full on in the day time is both inconsiderate and dangerous. You know that your headlight(s) are at car driver eye level so oncoming drivers are blinded and cars ahead have to adjust their rear view mirrors (ok so mine is self -dipping). Bike lights are powerful, adjustment often dubious and a bike acceleration means they are always lifted even higher. If you don't object to oncoming cars giving you the full beam treatment, then fine carry on. You will be hardly less visible by merely dipping your lights. other road users will certainly appreciate it.

On a second point, and this has been made before, driving in the gap between a car drivers rear view and door mirror just is not very bright - even your probably bright mainbeam headlight wont be seen. The more sensible approach is to drop back a few yards where you can be seen - it's not as if you don't have enough poke to get by fast when he pulls over is it? (or, if that's your bag, to undertake). If you do inisist on sitting in the blind spot, try not to get too surprised when from time to time, a motorist checks his mirrors and pulls out as you decide it is time to make your passing move. Although a little careless on the part of the car driver, the blind spot biker contributes massively to any situation.

In summary be as impatiant as you want: you'll be seen equally well without aggressive main beam; and better overall if you just drop back and left a tad which means folk will probably pull over sooner and let you on your impatient way 

On a more interesting not to end did you see the R1/Porsche C4 competion with Neil Mckenzie and Jason Plato on Driven?/Fifth Gear? last week? I would expect a Porsche to lap Thruxton faster than an R1 since it has so many high speed corners. I did not expect the car to be beat the bike based on a standing start lap!!!! Obviously the bike shot off the line and minced it on the straights. Grip and braking just enabled the Porsche to claw it all back though narrowly beating bike on one lap standing start sprint.

With flying laps the bike would be several seconds down. I was amazed and surprised thinking the R1 would walk it. Both Mckenzie and Plato were absolutely on it. Let's see more of these ;D


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## Guy (May 13, 2002)

My policy for bikes - and for cars - is that if they catch me up they are going faster than me so why block the road for them?

Let them get the attention of the Cops as they sail past Mr 'Nice Guy' (Yeah Right ....)

Bikes take up very little road space and soon disappear into the distance so let them get past.

Especially those stupid pig ignorant leather clad wankers (well it is a flame room!) who use their head lamps on main beam at all times instead of those nice leather clad sensible riders who use their head lamp on dipped beam or have fitted a riding lamp that does not dazzle.

I am an ex-bike rider who has lost too many biker friends to crutches, wheelchairs and Dr Death to play games on a bike. Every bastard on 4 wheels is out to get you. (and if you have your headlamp on main beam I might just join them....)


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

> Had to smile at the levellings of gayness amongst bikers with the leather biker garb etc, from someone here who may appear to the casual observer to be absolutely obsessed with 'off-roading' (anal sex). Â


It was meant as a joke of course!! Only Paul Clarkson is the gay motorcyclist in here!! Â ;D

...and anyway...anal sex is only good in an heterosexual relationship and all my discussions before clearly focused on this.


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

Vlastan in his dream world again


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## r1 (Oct 31, 2002)

> Â (and if you have your headlamp on main beam I might just join them....)


I'd have thought that if you've lost friends you'd be even more paranoid about being seen and would not take this sort of aggressive view on it....


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