# Time to fit tie bars: any comments on these cheaper arms?



## djscoventry (Jul 15, 2017)

So payday is approaching - kind of - and the time has come to fit some tie bars. I've had a browse over the last couple of months and noted some cheaper options. Forge is extortionate. The Cookbot arms look good and I've seen some good reviews. But I've also seen some ebay arms for around £150. This does seem to good to be true and so I'm hesitant to jump in. They don't specify the material so I assume they're not stainless steel a la Cookbot.

Can anyone comment on these?

Also, the inner joint seems to be quite different to those seen on mainstream arms. The advert claims this is to reduce static friction - whatever this means. Is this a good thing or nonsense?

And is there any difference between having the adjustable section centrally versus at one end?

Thanks!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ADJUSTABLE-SU ... SwyQtVtjFP

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Adjustable-Re ... 0005.m1851


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## Adm... (Feb 3, 2016)

I purchased some. Drove about 200 miles on them and seems fine. My Brother fitted them for me and used new audi bolts. Then got it roughly aligned and was easy to move about. Never tried the other stuff but they seem to have some a few so was worth a try.


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## desertstorm (Apr 25, 2017)

I would give the second ones you linked to a miss. An S3 at the club GTI trackday event at Curbrough I went to the other day had one of those snap at the welded joint on the outboard end. Fortunately he was only going slowly at the time. The week before he had been at Brands Hatch.










I was going to buy some Silver Project arms but came across a second hand set of Cookbot arms that I bought on here. The Silver project stuff is good quality and made in Europe. They are available in black and blue I believe.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Einstellbar-Q ... 2702721772?

https://silverproject.eu/en/


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## stevov (Jun 15, 2016)

What are the legal issues, safety approvals, insurance approvals


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## Oranoco (Jan 10, 2016)

I went with the Forge units as they have a proven track record and was about to set off for the Nurburgring and didn't fancy taking any gambles. That's not to say any of the cheaper bars aren't perfectly good just that I wanted a know quantity/quality.


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## GARAGE HERMIT (Mar 7, 2015)

the op two link's dont even mention what they're made of, even wheel bolt seller's on ebay give the grade of steel the bolt's are made of, so what does that tell you, :roll: ,
had a pair of cookbot's arm's on for about two year's now, still going strong, think about the carnage that will ensue if one of the cheaper arm's let's go,  , but it's your choice,


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## desertstorm (Apr 25, 2017)

Keep a look out for second hand items. They come up every now and then. Pity there are no picutres on this sale.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/KW-Adjustable ... 2718696535?


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## djscoventry (Jul 15, 2017)

You've all been supremely helpful, as usual 

One more question: are there any bushes under there that are worth replacing whilst I have a mechanic in the general vicinity of the rear suspensiony area?


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## SPECSMAN (Oct 11, 2016)

djscoventry said:


> You've all been supremely helpful, as usual
> 
> One more question: are there any bushes under there that are worth replacing whilst I have a mechanic in the general vicinity of the rear suspensiony area?


Here's Specsman, with his contrary views again!

The picture showing the broken tie bar......

I would bet my reputation (very poor anyway  ) that this car had the rubber tie bar bushes in the hub. It is essential if you have rubber bushes, (rather than rose joints); that the bolt isn't tightend up, until the weight of the car is loading the suspension. (if you don't follow this procedure, it is the adverse twisting force that causes failure).

I am a fan of the original rose joint, (superseded by the "improved" rubber ones because of a few corrosion failures), as it allows for rotation as well as massive articulation.

In a nutshell, if you have rubber bushes, even Forge tie bars must be fitted correctly, following the correct loading procedure described above. I don't think that the cheapo tie bars are necessarily inferior in strength. [smiley=gossip.gif]

Specsman. 8)


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## desertstorm (Apr 25, 2017)

That is an interesting point and one that people should bear in mind, I actually spoke to the owners of the car and asked them about the failure and they said that when they fitted them they actually thought about adding some more weld to the end bracket where it broke as it only appeared to be welded from the one side, Ie from the bracket onto the end of the threaded section from the outer end.


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## SPECSMAN (Oct 11, 2016)

desertstorm said:


> That is an interesting point and one that people should bear in mind, I actually spoke to the owners of the car and asked them about the failure and they said that when they fitted them they actually thought about adding some more weld to the end bracket where it broke as it only appeared to be welded from the one side, Ie from the bracket onto the end of the threaded section from the outer end.


They probably are shite then! :lol:

Incidentally, the original tie bars can/will fail, if not fitted as per my post.

8)


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## djscoventry (Jul 15, 2017)

Are rose bushes the ones seen on these cheaper copies? I've seen this term used but not sure what exactly it means.

Why would a cheaper copy revert to rose joints?

Either way, I'll be sure to give my mechanic a heads up on the installation tip.


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## Nipsu (Jan 16, 2015)

SPECSMAN said:


> djscoventry said:
> 
> 
> > You've all been supremely helpful, as usual
> ...


I'll put my effort in the thread as well. [smiley=bigcry.gif]

Rubber bushes have the "fail safe" design. When the rubber bush starts to fail, it doesn't brake anything doing so. It just becomes loose. During the years the rose joint gets humidity past it's seals and starts to corrode from the inside causing it to seize. The seizeing causes the bars to fail, no matter original on un-original.

In other words, with the rubber bush, you'll have to pay attention when assembling it. With the rose joint you'll have to pay more and more attention to it the older it gets (check that it moves freely). If done correctly, the rubber bush is more assemble-and-forget solution compared to rose joint.


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## SPECSMAN (Oct 11, 2016)

Nipsu said:


> SPECSMAN said:
> 
> 
> > djscoventry said:
> ...


Sorry, but no!

If a rubber bush fails, it allows fore and aft movement, and the tie bar fork wears away on the hub casting.

If a rose joint fails, it allows fore and aft movement, and the tie bar fork wears away on the hub casting!

The rubber bushes were a knee-jerk reaction by Audi to a problem that didn't exist. They should have improved the seals on the rose joints and left well alone.

Rubber bushes give sloppy control; rose joints are bearings, and give zero play.

No longer available, but intelligent, forward thinking people (me  ) have sourced new but old stock ones.

As always, my opinion is free; so I give it freely!

Specsman 8) viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1407113


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## SPECSMAN (Oct 11, 2016)

djscoventry said:


> Are rose bushes the ones seen on these cheaper copies? I've seen this term used but not sure what exactly it means.
> 
> Why would a cheaper copy revert to rose joints?
> 
> Either way, I'll be sure to give my mechanic a heads up on the installation tip.


A rose joint is a ball/socket type affair. I have a picture of a failed one, (and a good one) in my thread, when mine failed.

It's OK to fit either, but the rubber ones need to be in the running position before tightening, as described.

8)


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## stevov (Jun 15, 2016)

As previously mentioned as this is a modification it would be advisable to check with your insurance as it gives them an out in case of an accident due to failure.fitting parts that have not been safety certified will void insurances. Companies like Forge will have the engineering certifications. That's why a lot of performance parts are listed as for offroad/track use that's their get out clause


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## djscoventry (Jul 15, 2017)

Good shout. Thank you. I'll make sure to get some that are for road use.


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## djscoventry (Jul 15, 2017)

Managed to get those KW ones off ebay for £60! Very happy.

Thanks all for your help.


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## desertstorm (Apr 25, 2017)

Fleabay can be areally useful for picking up parts. You just need to be patient good stuff comes up all the time.


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## djscoventry (Jul 15, 2017)

Yup I done good. Just need to get them on now. Potentially this weekend. Happy days. :mrgreen:


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## Adm... (Feb 3, 2016)

I am retracting my previous statement Don't buy them [smiley=argue.gif]










Went round a corner at 30mph luckily i was on my own


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## desertstorm (Apr 25, 2017)

Those look the same as this one which snapped on an S3 at the last club GTI event I went to at Curbrough. Fortunately he was only going slowly. The weekend before he had been at Brands Hatch on a track day.










I wouldn't fit one of these cheaper Chinese arms. You also need to check that the outer joint hasn't seized up. Early cars had a ball joint affair and if this seizes up the ends of the arm snap off. If you have the rubber bushes the bolts should be tightened up when the arms are in the normal resting position. This stops the bushes being preloaded and imposing greater twisting forces on the arms.
There are plenty of quality arms out there but undortunately they are more expensive. The Silver project arms are about the cheapest quality arm that I found.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/REAR-LOWER-CO ... 2786952839?


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## SPECSMAN (Oct 11, 2016)

desertstorm said:


> Those look the same as this one which snapped on an S3 at the last club GTI event I went to at Curbrough. Fortunately he was only going slowly. The weekend before he had been at Brands Hatch on a track day.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm getting deja vu :lol:


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

Adm... said:


> I am retracting my previous statement Don't buy them [smiley=argue.gif]
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Another lucky escape and further confirmation that these two bob tie arms are cheap for a reason.


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## gogs (Dec 22, 2010)

If these were bought of eBay launch a complaint/dispute advising the item isn't fit for its intended purpose

Sent via carrier pigeon


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## Adm... (Feb 3, 2016)

gogs said:


> If these were bought of eBay launch a complaint/dispute advising the item isn't fit for its intended purpose
> 
> Sent via carrier pigeon


I purchased them 3 months ago so having trouble reporting them. But I am in contact with the seller and hopefully people will see this post first


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## DazWaite (Dec 4, 2012)

Just because the tiebar breaks means that it's cheap and faulty.....I'd be checking rose joints on the hub especially if they're the older type for being siezed? Something has to flex and if rose joints siezed then even oem tiebars break

Daz


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## Wak (May 6, 2002)

Personally I would expect the bar to be made to take the punishment.

The joint or bushing should wear/fail which may create knocking or sloppy feel but be the wear and tear item you can replace because your still alive, the bar stayed strong and didn't send you into a tree!

Having a control arm be the first point of failure is a faulty product in my opinion.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## desertstorm (Apr 25, 2017)

Fitted some Cookbot rear arms to the car today, Bought second hand off here as they are a bit pricey new but the quality is excellent. Compared to the tin plate originals these are properly strong.


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## jhoneyman (Aug 8, 2012)

They do look thin and ultra hollow.
I would never buy cheap on a part as critical has that.


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## Adm... (Feb 3, 2016)

What bushes need replacing on a Early TT? Mines a 1999 one and this has made me want to upgrade as much as i can afford

Cookbot arms are ordered But i don't have a car as they want me to send the faulty ones back


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## desertstorm (Apr 25, 2017)

Check the outer bushes on the wheel hub. They will be the rose joint type if original. They should move, and not be seized up. 
If they are exceptionally tight or seized they need replacing. You can't get the rose joint type bush now it's a rubber/ polybush that is used for replacement.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=419537


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## SPECSMAN (Oct 11, 2016)

desertstorm said:


> Check the outer bushes on the wheel hub. They will be the rose joint type if original. They should move, and not be seized up.
> If they are exceptionally tight or seized they need replacing. You can't get the rose joint type bush now it's a rubber/ polybush that is used for replacement.
> viewtopic.php?f=2&t=419537


Don't be too quick to junk your rose joints.

Rose joints give unparalleled articulation and rotation, (if not seized!) and exhibit no play whatsoever (it's a bearing).

Rubber bushes are difficult to align and rotation is limited to the flex in the rubber, so failure to tighten the bolts with the suspension in compression will snap the tie bar over time.

Try to find some "new but old stock" rose joints, that's what I did.

Specsman 8)


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## jhoneyman (Aug 8, 2012)

As above....

I did replace mines with the rubber and they are stiff with little movement in them.


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## Adm... (Feb 3, 2016)

That bush? Seems to be moving as I am trying to get the snapped bit off [smiley=argue.gif]


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## SPECSMAN (Oct 11, 2016)

Adm... said:


> That bush? Seems to be moving as I am trying to get the snapped bit off [smiley=argue.gif]


That is a rose joint.

Think of it as a ball and socket. (like a big double-ended track rod end) It should twist in all directions and rotate, easily.

The dust cover looks a bit perished but that may just be the photo.

If it moves as I describe, it would appear that these tie bars are useless.

Specsman 8)


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## Adm... (Feb 3, 2016)

Yeah it moves as when I try and remove the bolt it twists round.

Waiting on a second pair of hands.

The tie bars are going back tomorrow getting a refund so it makes it easier.

Then I am just waiting. On cookbot arms.


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## SPECSMAN (Oct 11, 2016)

Adm... said:


> Yeah it moves as when I try and remove the bolt it twists round.
> 
> Waiting on a second pair of hands.
> 
> ...


Put a ring spanner on one side and jam it against something solid. Then use a socket or another ring spanner to undo. (Bolts are supposed to be single use, but does anyone replace them ) .

Obviously, if you let it rotate too much, you could rip the rose joint gaiters/seals.... then it's FUBAR.

Specsman 8)


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## Adm... (Feb 3, 2016)

These are new bolts from Audi £9 each!!!

As it was the terms and conditions that my brothet who was fitting them insisted as they looked like they would easily seize. :lol:


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## imartyn (Aug 31, 2015)

Adm... said:


> These are new bolts from Audi £9 each!!!
> 
> As it was the terms and conditions that my brothet who was fitting them insisted as they looked like they would easily seize. :lol:


That bolt doesn't look very new......the nut does :wink:

When you do get the arms off it would be wise to have a close look at the joints and give them a good clean and lube (I'd go for a moly grease) if they're not knackered, then that will give them years more life.


















...as Specsman said, be gentle with it


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## Adm... (Feb 3, 2016)

Ended up with Stance+ Camber arms from Venom Motorsport Look like forge ones and are a lot more heavy duty compared to the other ones. Car was off the road for 3 weeks and Cookbot arms were taking too long which was a shame.

http://www.venommotorsport.com/suspensi ... mber-arms/

But the drop link snapped when the rear arm snapped but I don't have any noises coming from the rear so the eBay ones must have been causing that problem. Only drove it to the garage slowly


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## imartyn (Aug 31, 2015)

Did you keep the rose joints ?


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## Adm... (Feb 3, 2016)

imartyn said:


> Did you keep the rose joints ?


Just the arms were replaced and now back from the drop links being done. Everything else is the same


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## Kang (Feb 5, 2018)

This is my first post on here so please be gentle.

I totally understand that there is a difference between a budget product and a high end one but I can't see how any of the companies who make adjustable tie bars can justify the price they sell for. £200 plus, over £300 for the Forge ones, seems like way too much for what looks, to me, like a simple product. There's no tricky engineering going on there and not a lot of materials. Why are they so expensive?


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## desertstorm (Apr 25, 2017)

You are correct in large quantities something like these are should be quite a bit cheaper but there is a limited market for these. The Silver Project arms are reasonable quality and not over expensive really.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Einstellbar-Q ... 2816093543?


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## Wak (May 6, 2002)

I've never heard of forge ones breaking but some of the cheaper ones have, so do some research.

£100 extra is worth a reduced risk IMO. 
I've had forge bars since they first developed them and these are not even the current versions but they have done 150k


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## Kang (Feb 5, 2018)

Yeah I saw the Silver Project ones. Has anyone used them?


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## imartyn (Aug 31, 2015)

I know which one I'd trust not to break


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## desertstorm (Apr 25, 2017)

Personally I would be happy with the Silver Project bars, They are made in Europe and well designed to do the job.
Forge are just way over engineered as regards the strength of the outer end. 95% or more of the people on here are running around on the original pressed steel items Audi produced.
They decided they were more than ample to do the job. The breakages seen by people are pretty much always down to the outboard bushes seizing and the use of the Chinese cheap design poor quality arms.
I would be running Silver Project arms on my car if a user on here hadn't been selling some Cookbot arms for pretty much the same price.
This was one of the rear arms on mine when I took them off and cleaned them up. Just under 90K 2002.


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## Kang (Feb 5, 2018)

I quite like the look of the Stance+ ones. At least they are under £200. Just.

http://www.venommotorsport.com/suspensi ... mber-arms/

Hopefully I won't need any. I'm planning on lowering my pre facelift using Apex springs, if I do end up needing them will it be totally obvious? How many degrees -ve camber will lowering a pre facelift 40mm produce?


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## Hoggy (May 8, 2002)

Hi Kang, every TT appears to be different, some do some don't, it will quite obvious & tyre will wear quicker on the inside edge.The only problem not replacing the bars same time as springs you may be paying twice for alignment.
Hoggy.


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## corrado1.8t (Mar 22, 2012)

Fitted a set of those blue ones, first option, have done 15,000 miles on them and they are great. however bottom nuts come loose sometimes, keep on eye on them. they are easy to adjust and seem to be built out of good, heavy ,solid steel. would recommend them. think I got them for e200 at the time.


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## Kang (Feb 5, 2018)

Hoggy said:


> Hi Kang, every TT appears to be different, some do some don't, it will quite obvious & tyre will wear quicker on the inside edge.The only problem not replacing the bars same time as springs you may be paying twice for alignment.
> Hoggy.


Agreed. I don't want to pay for alignment twice but I don't want to pay for adj tie bars if they aren't needed either. What is and isn't an acceptable amount of -ve camber? Is it zero degrees is standard, one degrees looks cool and two degrees is just too much? I don't drive my TT much, it sits in the garage and waits for sunny days. I wonder if I fit the springs and it looks like I need tie bars I can still drive it a couple of times while I save up for some.

I also want to fit wheel spacers, will I need to have alignment after fitting them too?


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## NickG (Aug 15, 2013)

Kang said:


> I also want to fit wheel spacers, will I need to have alignment after fitting them too?


No, this doesn't alter the geometry (scrub radius aside).

Also worth noting that while silver project are probably fine, the reason Cookbot arms are so good is they're made from stainless steel... they're almost bomb proof. For reference here's my set after 2/3 years on the car...










Having removed a set of, for example, stern tie bars that had been fitted for 18 months (and with similar use) these were bubbling under all the coating and rusty underneath. I'm not saying that means they will fail, structurally they were sound, but it's clear to me why cookbot arms are the far superior product over other offerings (forge included).

Stern bars for reference;


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## Ian_W (Oct 19, 2008)

For something that is effectively keeping the rear wheels connected to car, I don't think I could feel comfortable skimping.

I fitted my KW ones 5.5 years ago, I've done 90k near enough on them and they still look solid.

Sent from my ONE E1003 using Tapatalk


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## alexgreyhead (Oct 12, 2015)

NickG said:


> Cookbot arms


^ This (just my £0.0002-worth, of course).

When I was looking for adjustable tie-bars for Shed to try and sort out her uneven rear ride height, I settled on Cookbots but it was a close-run thing between them and the Forge tie-bars (I needed to fit two pairs in the end so I could get the rear geometry perfect).

I wouldn't feel happy about using the cheaper-made bars, primarily because I have no way to check the quality control, I have no knowledge of the quality/purity of the metals being used, and I don't know whether the person doing the welding knows how to make a good, clean weld that will be as strong after ten years' abuse by salty roads.

I saw a few photos of snapped tie-bars. It strikes me that the common failure mode here seems to be at the thin section, often where the threaded bar is taking the entire load.

Considering the lateral forces which can be exerted on the tie-bars - particularly the lever force on the lower arm when it's on the outside of a hard corner - I can see why they break. Considering a cross-section of say 12mm round bar, and say you're cornering at 0.5g with a TT's rear end being, what, 600Kg? My rough-probably-wrong maths gives me a figure of 265Kg per square cm.

That doesn't even account for hitting a bump or kerb sideways, which could put a shock load of 5g or more through the bar; that would take things up to 2,650Kg per cm squared.

The Audi OEM arms might look like they're not very substantial, but I have Shed's used set here and they're very thick metal, and at no point does their cross-section have any obvious weak points; they're a box section all the way through, so any forces would be even distributed across their width. Being mild steel, they will also have a degree of flexibility and resistance to work-hardening which a cheaper grade of stainless steel wouldn't have.

I'm very happy with my Cookbot arms. I fitted little neoprene gaitors over the adjuster threads per Paul Cooke's recommendation, and doused them in ACF50, so hopefully they will out-last Shed.

/Al


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## ecko223 (May 9, 2017)

I went with Megan Racing adjustable rear arms for both my Upper and Lower positions.

2years later and 20k miles, no issues!

They were about $160usd per pair!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Kang (Feb 5, 2018)

I got some of these in the end through the TT shop. They're not listed on their website, I don't think. I bought some second hand Apex springs from them and asked if they ever got second hand tie bars and they put me on to them. I'm not sure if I got a special deal so I don't want to say how much I paid but it was a bargain.

http://www.compbrake.com/product/audi-t ... nted-arms/

They arrived yesterday and they look the business, stainless steel, British made. Hopefully your not all going to tell me that they're crap.

Are there any guides to fitting adjustable tie bars or do I just swap them over? There seems to be some confusion as to weather to do the top or the bottom ones.


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

Kang said:


> I got some of these in the end through the TT shop. They're not listed on their website, I don't think. I bought some second hand Apex springs from them and asked if they ever got second hand tie bars and they put me on to them. I'm not sure if I got a special deal so I don't want to say how much I paid but it was a bargain.
> 
> http://www.compbrake.com/product/audi-t ... nted-arms/
> 
> ...


I've book marked those, just incase i decide to ditch the offroad look, fit in the lower position adjust the length to the arms your taking off before putting on, you'll obv be getting 4 wheel alignement after fitting.


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## Kang (Feb 5, 2018)

Delta4 said:


> Kang said:
> 
> 
> > I got some of these in the end through the TT shop. They're not listed on their website, I don't think. I bought some second hand Apex springs from them and asked if they ever got second hand tie bars and they put me on to them. I'm not sure if I got a special deal so I don't want to say how much I paid but it was a bargain.
> ...


Nice one. Sounds simple enough.


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

Nice one. Sounds simple enough.[/quote]

It's an easy swop job if your handy with the spanners, if you don't fancy doing yourself there is garage in swalecliffe that know their onions.


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## Kang (Feb 5, 2018)

Delta4 said:


> Nice one. Sounds simple enough.


It's an easy swop job if your handy with the spanners, if you don't fancy doing yourself there is garage in swalecliffe that know their onions.[/quote]

Ha. Good to know. I've got trusted mechanics all over the CT5 area but I'll be doing it myself. And good to know you are in the area too.


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## rubberjohnson (Oct 13, 2016)

Hi, reviving this old thread to ask if these turned out to be any good? Thinking I may get these as they have a rose joint. My current ones are rose joints (2002, so should be the upgraded ones) and I'd rather keep them that way if it's easier on the behind than getting Powerflex. I'll be checking my current ones when the bars are off and putting in the metal bonded Audi replacements in the trailing arm if necessary.
Any feedback on the durability of the ones linked below would be great.

And I still can't get a definitive answer on whether to replace the top or the bottom bar. I'd rather not faff on with the headlight level sensor (which doesn't work anyway!) but for every person saying to replace the top bar, another says the bottom. Thoughts?

[smiley=thumbsup.gif]



Kang said:


> I got some of these in the end through the TT shop. They're not listed on their website, I don't think. I bought some second hand Apex springs from them and asked if they ever got second hand tie bars and they put me on to them. I'm not sure if I got a special deal so I don't want to say how much I paid but it was a bargain.
> 
> http://www.compbrake.com/product/audi-t ... nted-arms/
> 
> ...


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## davebowk (Aug 16, 2019)

The cheap ones that are only welded on the inside of the U bracket will probably break as the ones pictured earlier in the thread did, this type of welded joint is not very strong in tension.
I have set for a BMW modified to fit the TT. The weld on these won't break as i welded them (time served, qualified welder)
After a lot of searching as to top or bottom fitment i settled on bottom.(can't remember why)
After fitting you will need to have the rear toe set.


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