# 3.2 VR6 Timing Issues - Help Needed



## Bluett2005 (Aug 30, 2020)

Hi all,

I am hoping that someone can shed some light on my situation as I feel that I am going in circles. I have the engine out of the car, to diagnose check engine code 16395/P0011/000017 - Bank 1: Camshaft A (Intake): Retard Setpoint not Reached (Over-Advanced). I believe that the timing was not set up correctly, but I cannot for the life of me get the timing spot on. I set up the chains as per the VW workshop manual with the cam locking plate in and all marks lining up, I then rotate the engine at the crank pulley 2 rotations, to which I have to go roughly half a cm past top dead centre to fit the cam plate in. If I spin the engine 10 times over from there I still have to go the same distance past tdc to get the cam plate to fit.

Interestingly all marks on the bottom chain line up from TDC to TDC, including the mark on the intermediate shaft. The car has new adjusters, guides, and tensioners, and I have just fitted a new sprockets on the intermediate shaft with no change to the timing issue. Am I missing something really obvious, or should I not worry and stick the engine back together how it is?

Thank you

Tom


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## Charmadize (Jul 14, 2019)

Does it run ok, even though you have the error code?


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## SwissJetPilot (Apr 27, 2014)

Worth a watch just in case you missed anything -

*How To Properly Time and Install Timing Chains on an R32 VR6*


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## Neggy17 (Apr 12, 2021)

Hi mate, I'm keeping a close eye on this post, I've got my engine in bits waiting for parts to do the same job. I don't spose you know if the intake and exhaust vvt sprockets move the same amount? My exhaust vvt turns a lot less that my intake side and don't know if that's right? Good luck with the job and please post your progress.


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

I can see the problem....
....

....

....

Said no-one ever....

I know when 'some' people saw crazy and totally unexpected 208 /209 chain stretch errors... it was the sensors rather than the chains.


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## SwissJetPilot (Apr 27, 2014)

Here's another YouTube that may be helpful -

*Timing Chain on Golf R32 Mk5 (VR6) - Part 9 - Fitting New Chains and Timing*


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## Bluett2005 (Aug 30, 2020)

Neggy17 said:


> Hi mate, I'm keeping a close eye on this post, I've got my engine in bits waiting for parts to do the same job. I don't spose you know if the intake and exhaust vvt sprockets move the same amount? My exhaust vvt turns a lot less that my intake side and don't know if that's right? Good luck with the job and please post your progress.


Hi, intake and exhaust vvt sprockets move different amounts, the intake varies more which is normal. Id be interested to see photos of your VVT sprockets with part numbers and timings arrows on. The VVT sprokets on my car are new, at a cost of £400 each fitted by a garage about 3 years ago before I bought the car. My father also has a vr6 tt which timings needs doing, he has bought genuine audi parts which I have tried out on my car with the same issue. The only thing I haven't changed are the VVT sprockets as I don't have these available, I cant imagine these are wrong.

The timing is 6 degrees out on the crank and 3 degrees out at the camshaft which is less than the chain being 1 tooth out. Confusing....


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## Bluett2005 (Aug 30, 2020)

Charmadize said:


> Does it run ok, even though you have the error code?


Car ran fine as far as I was aware, a symptom as per ross tech of the code is mechanical timing is out, which my engine is. I presume the VVT sprockets in most cases would be able to keep the engine timed in most cases.


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## Sandy (May 5, 2014)

Exhaust cam sprocket was causing timing issue on the Mk1 2004 3.2 V6 I've recently replaced the chain kit and Exhaust VVT sprocket as there was way too much play in that and cost 478£ odd quid with trade discount and 497£ retail. Running spot on with full power now as there was a big difference when timing was out but you cannot notice unless you know your car or check here. This is back to spec again but was way out before replacing the chain and vvt sprocket on 8kw


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## Neggy17 (Apr 12, 2021)

Bluett2005 said:


> Neggy17 said:
> 
> 
> > Hi mate, I'm keeping a close eye on this post, I've got my engine in bits waiting for parts to do the same job. I don't spose you know if the intake and exhaust vvt sprockets move the same amount? My exhaust vvt turns a lot less that my intake side and don't know if that's right? Good luck with the job and please post your progress.
> ...


My exhaust valve has the part number 022 109 088G, inlet valve has 022 109 087E. My car is a 2005. Might be worth checking that the camshaft solenoids are working, just put 12volts to them from what I've watched. If you need anymore pics of anything let me know.


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## SwissJetPilot (Apr 27, 2014)

Have you opened up the VTV to make sure everything inside it okay? No broken vane springs or lock pin?

If you decided to replace one or more of yours, could you open it up and take some pictures of what's inside?

This image is from a 2.0 VTV with the center adjustment valve servo. Similar, but not exactly like the 3.2 VTV -

*Volkswagen Audi Variable Timing Explained*


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## Neggy17 (Apr 12, 2021)

SwissJetPilot said:


> Have you opened up the VTV to make sure everything inside it okay? No broken vane springs or lock pin?
> 
> If you decided to replace one or more of yours, could you open it up and take some pictures of what's inside?
> 
> ...


I'd like to get these apart to check them and give them a clean but couldn't work out how to get them apart. The star bit screws are under the plate in some spots so can't all be undone. Do you know how to get them apart? Can they be soaked in degreaser if I can't get them apart? I didn't know if there were seals or o rings inside that could be damaged?


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## SwissJetPilot (Apr 27, 2014)

@ *Neggy17* - Honestly I don't know how they come apart, I doubt they were built with the user in mind since the entire Camshaft Adjuster Unit is sold as a complete assembly. I'll search around as I'm curious myself as I also have a 3.2 VR6.









Does the outer section (*green arrow*) rotate independently from the inner section (*red arrow*)...?? If so, you should be able to rotate them independently to access the screws. Note that the screws are quite long and go all the way through to the back of the assembly.

If they're all fixed and you still can't figure it out (there may be a circlip-ring on the back), just walk it into your local VAG or indie with it and ask if someone can show you. Some bright spark may be willing to help especially if he thinks you'll be back for a new one. ;-)


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## Neggy17 (Apr 12, 2021)

The section with the red arrow only moves a small amount so you can't uncover all the screws. I can't see any circlips, I'm assuming that center section is pressed in but I don't want to risk breaking it unless I know how it comes apart, I'll do a bit more research and if I find the answer I'll take it apart and post some pics. Thanks for your help, again.


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## SwissJetPilot (Apr 27, 2014)

No worries! I'll continue my search too, as I'm curious how this works out. 

I've emailed a couple of people who may know so hopefully we get back some good news sooner than later.


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## Bluett2005 (Aug 30, 2020)

Neggy17 said:


> View attachment 3
> 
> 
> Bluett2005 said:
> ...


These look the same as mine, with marks in identical places although I have slightly different part numbers as VW updated them. I have checked the solenoids & these are working as they should be, they have also been replaced. I know the VVT adjuster are oil fed to which I have checked the pump and strainers which are all ok. It seems I have a completely new timing set up and yet I can't get it to time correctly. I am tempted to stick it all back together times as it is, being 6 degrees out and the crank and 3 degrees at the cam & see what happens, although I can't guarantee this will fix my check engine light. I am getting very close to breaking the car for bits...


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## Neggy17 (Apr 12, 2021)

Sorry to hear your getting towards the end of your tether with the car, wish I could help. Hopefully somebody will chime in and give you some fresh light on your problems. Best of luck.


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## SwissJetPilot (Apr 27, 2014)

I found this on another Audi Forum, so it's not the same, and unfortunately the author did not discuss disassembly. But it looks like the Hall Sensor Disc (for a lack of better term) is just a press fit into the Cam Adjuster Body. From these pictures at least, there doesn't seem to be a key-way or any C-clips involved. But you said it wouldn't rotate freely, so still a bit of a mystery what's keeping it in place.

Perhaps without using any tools see if you can press it out by hand from the back, away from the screws.

Look really closely and see if you can see any sort of clip on the back, or possibly between the Sensor Disc and Adjuster body.

https://www.audizine.com/forum/showthre ... BHF-Engine


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## Neggy17 (Apr 12, 2021)

I'll take another look, thanks for your efforts


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## Bluett2005 (Aug 30, 2020)

I will also have a look at my adjuster for those clips... if they are faulty or not sitting correctly that could cause the problem... Another idea I had is that my head gasket has been skimmed. By some rough calculations (very rough) if the headgasket has 2.5mm taken off it then that would cause the distance between the adjusters and intermediate shaft to be wrong cause my problem. But then I thought 2.5mm is a lot to take off... Just a thought.

Negg17 - what was your timing like when you took your engine apart? Did it look off to you?


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## Neggy17 (Apr 12, 2021)

Mine was definitely off hence why the engine came out, I bought the car as a non runner not knowing what was wrong. I then found as I've got deeper in that the tensioner on the back of the engine was In bits and the chain has jumped on the exhaust cam shaft bending 12 valves. Luckily it doesn't look like any other damage so I have ordered most of the stuff from the UK which I am now waiting on.ive bought the timing chain kit, new valves and headgasket kit. Ive just been cleaning bits and pieces and checking stuff while I wait.Ive worked out how to get the vvt sprockets apart. You just need a pin punch inside the bore to tap the centre rotating bit out. It's held on by 2 spring dowels. Once that's off you can undo the star bits. I haven't done that bit yet as I didn't have access to a vice. I'll post picks up when I get them apart.


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## SwissJetPilot (Apr 27, 2014)

So here's my post on one of Vaico's YouTubes and their reply -

_*Me -* 
Would you be so kind and explain how to disassembly the Cam Adjustment Phaser for the Audi TT Mk2 (8J) 3.2 VR6 (BUB). I'm trying to determine how to remove the Hall Sensor plate in order to access the five screws. With regards to the screws, is a special tool (VAGT40080) or similar required? I would like to be able to disassemble, inspect and clean the internal components. If you can also recommend an appropriate cleaning solvent your assistance is greatly appreciated. Thanks!_

_*Vaico* - 
Unfortunately, we cannot help you with this enquiry. In our videos, we always refer to the manufacturer's specifications and work instructions. Camshaft phasers are not intended for repair due to the complex internal structure, so there are no instructions on how to repair them. We also advise against disassembly, as these components are assembled by machine to the finest fits! In this case, you should use new parts to avoid consequential damage.
Regards, Team VAICO_

*Nockenwellenverstellung und Steuerventile am BMW 3er E46 | Steuerventil V20-2760*





Before you run out and buy a new one, be sure to shop around. This video (sorry, also German) was a shocker. These guys compared the prices of three Camshaft Phasers and the results were unbelievable -

*Rip off revealed: BMW spare part 7 times more expensive!*













Whether or not Viaco actually produces these in Europe or just imports them is up for debate since you can find these manufactured by Guangdong Hope Precision Technology co., Ltd . Given how many things are leaving Europe for China, this sort of price gouging wouldn't surprise me in the least.


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## Neggy17 (Apr 12, 2021)

Thanks for that, you've scared me from taking in it apart any further now tho, there that expensive I might just leave well alone and hope there ok. I didn't find any crud in the filter on the back of the cam bridge so hopefully there's no crud gone through the vvts.


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## SwissJetPilot (Apr 27, 2014)

I think that's a sensible alternative. As the old saying goes "if it ain't broke..." :wink:


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## SwissJetPilot (Apr 27, 2014)

I received this answer to my question on the German *Audi A3 Forum*. Looks like the Hall Sensor Disc just prys out with a screwdriver. The orientation and retention is accomplished with a couple of split roll pins.

Test of courage? ;-)

Be sure your screw bit fits perfectly as it's possible to strip them out as they are firmly seated. Looking through various pictures, it looks like they have slight variations in the screw type; e.g. star, poly-drive, etc. Unfortunately we don't know how much torque is required to secure them, but you can use this guide to make an educated guess. A touch of Blue Loctite 242 on the threads won't hurt.

View attachment hk_torquedatachart.pdf

_"Mark the gear rim to the arrow on the housing with a waterproof pen before disassembly. I took mine apart out of curiosity to assess the wear and had the problem of not knowing how they belong together. The issue is that the one part assembles in 5 different positions (turn one screw hole further each). Due to a mismatch, I had a real job counting off the chain links exactly. So the teeth did not sit exactly in the same position in relation to the arrow.

The sensor wheel is stuck on these two split roll pins and can be levered off carefully with a flat screwdriver."_


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