# The tale of my failed Helix clutch.



## les (Jul 24, 2006)

Some of you may recall I started a thread recently about a Helix clutch I had fitted 2 years ago. I had the thread pulled while the reason for its failure after just 18000 miles in 2 years was investigated by Helix themselves. I thought it only fair to give Helix time to investigate the cause of what I consider premature failure of the clutch. However to say I was very disappointed in only getting 18000 miles out of a performance clutch which should have lasted considerably longer would be an understatement.

Awesome GTI had fitted the clutch in October 2009 at a cost of £1242.79 which included all Helix parts inc a release bearing, pressure plate,flywheel, clutch plate and Awesome's labour of 6 hours. Nothing was spared after considering my options of which clutch to go for. I could have had an OEM clutch fitted and saved myself a few bob but I wanted a clutch that would last the lifetime of my car and after listening to advice I choose the Helix which I thought would do the job well. At the time the car was on stage 1 APR tuned and less than 12 months ago the car was stage 2 Revo tuned.

At this point I should point out my car is my daily drive. I don't drive the car hard every day far from it,I never done a track day or Santa pod with it and only occasionally used the full power of the car to get away and accelerate. After all this is my daily drive and no other parts on the car have failed prematurely due to the power I am putting down in fact non have failed prematurely full that could be attributed to my driving style full stop.

My original OEM clutch lasted 111,000 miles of which approximately 70,000 miles I put on the car, you can't complain about that. I have always driven the car the same way no matter what state of tune my car was at and my car has wanted for nothing with all services done on time and by Awesome GTI while in my possession prior to getting the car all services etc had been carried out as per the handbook. I was told to expect a rattle from the new Helix clutch when it was first fitted and so it did but it didn't worry me and I accepted it as standard due to the lightened flywheel etc. The clutch performed well and felt little different to the OEM clutch being just as light and responsive so I quickly got used to it.

Approximately 3 or4 months ago while on the motorway doing 60 MPH in traffic I put my foot down to accelerate to 70 in 6th gear, the revs of the engine increased but the car took a second or two to catch up. Strange I thought or was it me just imagining it. Over the next couple of months I noticed it more and more while driving in 4th to 6th gear the clutch seemed to slip momentary while I put my foot down.

The car was booked into Awesome last month and John at Awesome confirmed my worse fears, the clutch was indeed slipping. The following day the clutch was removed by Awesome and I got a call from John informing me that the clutch looked like it had done in excess of 100,000 miles. Not only was I shocked John was just as shocked.

At this point I should point out that when the new clutch was fitted an "O" ring on the release bearing had failed and on the way home I had to pump the clutch pedal to get pressure. The car was returned the following day and the clutch bearing replaced. John confirmed recently that the "O" that had failed was the external one and no clutch fluid had contaminated the clutch was that was ruled out as the cause of my clutch wear.

I decided that as funds were low (very low) to have an OEM clutch fitted and John at Awesome gave me a good deal on one fitted. Given the above and the cost involved I was hardly going to have another Helix clutch fitted at this stage nor could I aford another performance clutch and esp I wasn't going to have a Helix clutch again at my expense.

The following day I phoned a guy called Steve at Helix and told him the story of my clutch as above and arrangements were made for the complete clutch to be returned to Helix for examination. At this point I will cut to the chase. I had a long conversation with Steve from Helix yesterday who simply informed me that they could find nothing wrong with the clutch (apart from the wear) that would have caused its premature failure, no contamination and no unevenness or undue reason for its wear. Steve went on to say there was a lot of dust on the clutch but all components check out and no reason could be found for the excessive wear.

Steve did mention that there could be an issue with the clearance on the release bearing putting slight pressure on the clutch which would accelerate the wear on the clutch. However this was discounted by John at Awesome when I spoke to him saying they could find no evidence of such when they replaced my clutch with the OEM one.

Sorry to have gone on but I thought it best to tell more or less the full story. I am now nearly £2,000 out of pocket which I can ill aford ( bank of mum will need replaying back for her loan to have the OEM clutch fitted) and I am back with a standard clutch. Talking to Steve I put it to him that the reason for the cause of the premature wear on the clutch and from what I have been told appears to boil down to one of two reasons.
1/ Fair wear and tear.
2/ My driving style.

Neither of this reasons I can accept. I believe I had a right to expect the Helix clutch to last far longer than it has given its use. I believe there is a reason other than the 2 above for the clutches failure after only 18,000 miles. 
Would I buy another Helix clutch? Would I recommend you consider a Helix clutch when the time come to replace yours? I will leave you to guess that one.

The clutch is being returned to me but I am unsure where I go from here at the moment.

I have kept this story as clear and fair as I can I have refrained from calling Helix or Awesome. Awesome have always been fair to me and done me a good deal on my new OEM clutch. However I do feel I have been short changed with the Helix clutch and if anybody has any advice (please be respectful with any replies guys) then I am willing to listen to it. I will be sending Steve at Helix a link to this thread and he may wish to comment on it (he will have to join here first of course). I am sure John at Awesome will comment as well.

Thanks.


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## YELLOW_TT (Feb 25, 2004)

Sad to say Les mate at the moment the only luck you are having is bad hope things change for you soon


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## Mark Davies (Apr 10, 2007)

Quite clearly you find their response somewhat unsatisfactory and I can see why. Unless they are suggesting 18k miles is the nomal working life for their clutches then where is the explanation for it wearing out? I presume you could only trash a clutch so quickly if you had it fitted to a race car and obviously in your case that's not happened.

As for what to do next, if all they can do is shrug their shoulders and say, "This is normal wear and tear" then you may have a case under s.14 Sale of Goods Act 1979 which requires goods to be of 'satisfactory quality' and 'fit for purpose'.The argument would be that any reasonable person would expect a car's clutch to last considerably longer than 18k miles. If Helix are saying that's all this clutch is capable of (and from your report that seems to be what their response amounts to) then it seems to fall short of reasonable expectations and therefore in breach of the Act.

Firstly, you need to be aware that your contract is with Awesome (the people who sold it to you) and not directly with Helix, even though your belief is that the clutch itself is at fault and it's not an issue with the fitting. It is therefore Awesome that you should seek recourse from, though in reality they are effectively going to be stuck in the middle of a negotiation between yourself and Helix. You have a good working relationship with John and they are usually very good at rectifying customer issues so I'd suggest you go and see him and discuss a way forward.

I'd suggest you ask John to write to Helix explaining you are not satisified, that you expect a clutch to last considerably longer under the normal use that you have subjected it to (and as far as your explanation indicates they've found no evidence that it's been abused in any way and the onus would be on them to do so) and that you think they have failed in their obligations under s.14 Sale of Goods Act 1979 and require a remedy. They are within their rights to offer you a replacement clutch however you may not be satisifed with that. If you are not prepared to accept a replacement Helix clutch from them you should advise them that you have lost confidence in their product and the inconvenience that would be involved in having a second clutch fitted and failing would be excessive and unreasonable. You'd struggle to get a refund for what you originally paid for it because it has been on the car for so long (a refund would only normally be payable for faults discovered more or less immediately) so I'd suggest you'd more likely succeeed with requesting a refund for the cost of fitting the replacement OEM clutch you now have on instead.

As I say ultimately your recourse is with Awesome, so even if Helix refuse to pay it makes no difference to you (it's down to Awesome to recover their money from Helix). If you can't get a satisfactory result through negotiation and have to take the matter to court then it would be Awesome you take action against. I know you have already paid them for the OEM clutch but if I understood your original thread right it was agreed that was an interim measure just to keep your car on the road while the Helix clutch was sent back for investigation and so should not prejudice your rights in any way.

You may find these links useful:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sale_of_Goods_Act_1979

http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/ ... ur-rights/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/watchdog/consumer_ ... _emp.shtml

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Governmentc ... /DG_182935


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## bigsyd (Jul 9, 2008)

I have got to agree with mark , the buck stops at awesome, they fitted it they supplied it and they took your money, now in awesomes defense i suppose they will give a parts and labour guarantee what ever that is may be 6 months or 12 months and after that I would think they have no legal obligation as you may only do 100 miles in 5 years and the clutch could go, would they be responsible then
Could...or can you? Fit the clutch incorrectly causing the wear, well if it was any evidence has now gone as a new clutch has been fitted
If it has been fitted and passed there guarantee time then you will be looking at the clutch manufacturer and as they have said they can't find anything that could have caused the clutch to go I suppose you are in no mans land.. You could at a large expense I suppose have the clutch independently tested but would probably come to the same conclusion and you will be out of pocket
All I can see now is it is your responsibility to follow this up as its out of the awesome guarantee and the manufacturer said there is no manufacturing defect

Sorry les but I can't see an agreeable outcome on this one


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## ian222 (May 4, 2007)

I am gutted for you Les, that's very bad luck for you again.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

I think the important point here is that you could (and I think should) argue that the product was not fit for purpose. This is a fundamental part of your consumer rights and is nothing to do with any voluntary manufacturer warranties or any written guarantees supplied by Awesome. In this case, the contract is with the retailer, not the manufacturer, so I think you should discuss this with Awesome to see where they feel they stand. If you're still not happy with the situation, I think you should talk to Trading Standards to get their opinion on it.


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## Danny1 (Sep 2, 2010)

A clutch just like brakes is a wear and tear item, after 18k miles unfortunatly they will say u must be driving badly with it, you will say you dont, thats where the buck stops imo.

Very gutted for you Les, but imagine if as above ask, Awesome gave you money back or clutch fo free, you would then get people buying them, brakes tyres etc and just going back and saying hey, they have worn out, replace them! Its a difficult situation for all invloved.


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## Mark Davies (Apr 10, 2007)

Danny1 said:


> A clutch just like brakes is a wear and tear item, after 18k miles unfortunatly they will say u must be driving badly with it, you will say you dont, thats where the buck stops imo.


That may be an argument if the clutch had lasted 60k or 70k miles but compared to 100k+ miles for the OEM kit then 18k is just ridiculously low. Just how badly would someone have to drive a car to get less than 20% of the expected life out of a component? Arguably it shouldn't be possible, and if it is accepted that 18k is well below the reasonable expectations for the life of the part (and I argue it clearly is) the legal onus is on the _supplier_ to prove misuse of the part - it's not for Les to prove he hasn't been thrashing it.

Ultimately Helix will either have to convince a court that 18k miles is a reasonable life for their clutch or will have to provide evidence that the clutch has been misused. If they can do neither then they will be liable to Awesome who in turn are obliged to give Les some remedy.


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## AwesomeJohn (Apr 25, 2006)

Firstly I would just like so say where I am. I always do my best to side with all our customers especially when it comes to having an issue like this one with Les, I have done my best to try and come up with a solution and help Les all I can. I agree with Les, I would certainly expect any clutch let alone a performance clutch to last longer than 18,000 miles and 2 years as I am sure all of you on here would agree too, also to me the clutch when removed looked like it had done many more miles than it actually had.

I'll be deadly honest I am not 100% sure where Awesome would stand legally on the issue mentioned and I will make sure that Awesome stick to any protocol necessary however it is my understanding when it comes to any part sold by us when it has exceeded the time stated for its warranty period we are no longer legally obliged to offer any kind of repair, refund or replacement. On a Helix clutch the warranty against manufactures defect is 12 months. Clutches are not guaranteed against wear. As far as being fit for purpose stands, the clutch has lasted twice as long as the warranty period there for has served its purpose adequately.

Now let me make clear exactly what we have done with Les since he has had the problem. We inspected the car free of charge for him, gave him a car to use and after speaking with Les we decided Helix would not be the clutch of choice this time round. We decided to go with an original LUK complete clutch kit to replace the Helix one, this choice basically came about to keep it as cheap as possible and since another member on here has a car producing more power and has done for many 10's of thousands of miles we thought it our best option. Because Les has been a very good customer of ours for many years I took it on myself to help as much as I could. The new clutch in Les's car was one that I had a special discount for my own car (obviously that price was passed on) and a labor rate that is reserved for staff and immediate family. This saved Les quite a few hundred pounds and was the best I / we could do to help.

We then decided to get the clutch sent away for inspection by Helix, again at no cost to Les even though the clutch was 12 months past it's warranty. The test was completed and there has been no failure of any component, outcome the clutch has worn out / been worn out,

Some people may think that this would be the case for any clutch that has been sent back to be checked but I will make it clear Helix are very honest and have admitted fault before to me on 2 previous issues, non the same as Les's problem.

All in all I feel we have gone above and beyond what should be expected of us as a company and definitely more than we would have been required to do legally as far as I'm aware. I would like to see just how many other companies would have done the same, I see all too often where people end up paying full money to repair a car in a similar situation, we value and respect all our customers and I always go the extra mile to help where I can. It is extremely unfortunate for us all to have any kind of issues like this, Awesome cannot be expected to pay out for a failure of a product that has lasted longer that it's warranty period. If it was within this time or extremely close too then it would have been a completely different story.

Les has requested for the clutch to come back and I think we will send it away for some independent testing, we can then see if anything else comes up.

Regards John


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## YELLOW_TT (Feb 25, 2004)

Imust say that I have found Awesome to do there best for there customers even when I was shafted by Eiback over a set lowering springs that raised my qS instead of lowering it Awesome had supplied and fitted them Awesome offered to refund my money and return the car to standard 
I decided to have coilovers fitted and Awesome agreed to do this all I had to do was pay the difference in the cost of the parts


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## bs0u0118 (Dec 11, 2010)

It may not be a legal obligation for either party to offer a remedy as the warranty has expired, however, I believe the moral and just action would be to offer one.

Regardless, to a degree, the warranty is irrelevant as you have a statutory right to expect durability under Sale of Goods

The fact still remains that a 'peformance' clutch has failed after 2yrs and 18,000 miles which just isn't acceptable in my opinion. Regardless of the 12 month warranties, the product was clearly not fit for purpose. There is no way that this standard of clutch should be worn out through day to day driving on public roads.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

The warranty is a voluntary thing and is completely separate to the legal rights of the consumer. It's not related to the item being fit for purpose and has no bearing on it. From a legal standpoint, Les would argue that the part is not as durable as he could reasonably expect it to be, thus making it not fit for purpose and technically putting Awesome in breach of contract. I guess it would (if it ever came to that) be up to a judge to determine whether or not you can reasonably expect a clutch to last more than 18k miles over it's lifetime. I don't think the judge would be overly interested in what the warranty was if it reached that stage.


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## tony_rigby_uk (Nov 27, 2008)

This is a very odd situation.. and i really do feel for you here Les...

As said with a wearable item it's very difficult to gage fault.. if you buy a new tyre a day later you see a buldge in the sidewall (meaning it's F**ked) the tyre company will say you've damaged the tyre bumping up a kerb or hitting a brick. in the same way as your driving style has been laid to be the cause.

Power - TBH the Helix clutch is only really required for mass power.. (as you know i'm similar and running a stock clutch) so the car isn't TOO Powerfull" so thats off the Table.

Product - There is a LARGE number of these clutches THROUGHOUT the VAG range that Haven't failed. so what "could be differen't" it's a shame but no court battle would settle on a individual failure when there are a hudge amount that haven't failed. Helix would win with the number of retail sales vs failures. (ON MUCH LARGER POWERED CARS) Also Helix have examined the clutch and deem it to be fine.

Fitting - Poor fitting of the clutch. I have fitted a clutch to another car where the release bearing had slipped.. turned it over gave it revs and watched the smoke.. burnt alot of life out of it instantly, meanign after a re-fit it didn't last long before it completely wore out. Very much doubt awesome with the tools they have manage to fit it wrong.. and to be fair if it is wrong you usually know instantly and it's a "aww F**K" moment as you start to strip it all down again with the gutted feeling in your stomach. (In my experience a wrongly fitted clutch would, either slip or not disengage, meaning no gear selection when engine is running) Therefore it would be Apparent instantly to les, and everyone else near the car at the time he picked it up.

Obviously with those comments above the easiest comment is "driver error" it's the only logical explanation, and it's completely logical to expect both awesome and Helix to come to that conclusion. i am inclined knowing les's car to think that there has got to be a underlying cause:-

Yes there was a issue with the slave early on, even if it is external could it not enter the bellhousing? even if that was the case Helix would have spotted it on testing. so the clutch is clean no issue there)

Yes the clutch and flywheel was removed and fitted to a new engine after your issue not that long ago. 12months ago??? Basically the clutch and flywheel got switched from one engine to another and then dropped back into les's TT. Curious to know how bad the clutch was then. Surly awesome would have spotted very little life remaining on the clutch and flagged it up at the time. I know they are pretty keen to spot and prevent issues, even if they don't like breaking bad news to customers, they will "let you know" whats going on. (it just wouldn't have been worth putting the helix back in to wear like it has)

So the confusing thing here is the clutch didn't look too worn on the engine swap, and then with the new engine now looks like it's burnt out VERY Quickly... what has happened since the new engine went in.. I know there is a 2.0bar issue.. meaning silly boost, but again can't be more than the big power boys.

Could the Welded clutch pedal be fouling causing the pedal to make the clutch drag and wear out?? 
Could the master cylinder be a issue?? although would expect that to be failure to disengage the clutch

I must say i personally don't like to drive the TT in heavy shoes or wide shoes for that matter, But is suppose that may be part of the reason why mines done 125'000miles and never had "clutch pedal failure" i must say i imagine you could be accidently leaving abit of pressure on the clutch pedal if your wearing big heavy shoes meaning your draging and wearing it to your "FOOT RESTING ON PEDAL" level quite quickly, (this could be half a clutches life depending on how you rest your foot. I know my foot doesn't quite fit at the side if i'm wearing Reebok classics let alone Timberland boots or anything like that. I guess it all depends where your foot is when not using clutch.. be it flat on the floor, squeezed in at the bottom of the pedal, or hovering over it.. (if it's hovering and covering the clutch off be careful your no feeling soles on those timberland boots aren't resting on the pedal) NOT SAYING YOU DO THIS LES, it's more common with women and wedges but a suggestion for others.

Too Many unknown Factors, you have a part thats failed. until your new clutch has done 18k under the same conditions you have no evidence it isn't another issue with the car..... or your driving....


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## 4ndrew (May 9, 2011)

Well put John, it really does sound like you've gone above and beyond, just a shame it doesn't put les in a better situation. Let's just hope the independent testing comes up with an answer...


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## tony_rigby_uk (Nov 27, 2008)

AwesomeJohn said:


> This choice basically came about to keep it as cheap as possible and since another member on here has a car producing more power and has done for many 10's of thousands of miles we thought it our best option.


Who's that John, Name and shame :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## shell (Feb 1, 2008)

Really gutted for u Les


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## AwesomeJohn (Apr 25, 2006)

YELLOW_TT said:


> Imust say that I have found Awesome to do there best for there customers even when I was shafted by Eiback over a set lowering springs that raised my qS instead of lowering it Awesome had supplied and fitted them Awesome offered to refund my money and return the car to standard
> I decided to have coilovers fitted and Awesome agreed to do this all I had to do was pay the difference in the cost of the parts


Thanks Andy and to be honest you are not the only preson we have donr that for,



bs0u0118 said:


> It may not be a legal obligation for either party to offer a remedy as the warranty has expired, however, I believe the moral and just action would be to offer one.
> 
> Regardless, to a degree, the warranty is irrelevant as you have a statutory right to expect durability under Sale of Goods
> 
> The fact still remains that a 'peformance' clutch has failed after 2yrs and 18,000 miles which just isn't acceptable in my opinion. Regardless of the 12 month warranties, the product was clearly not fit for purpose. There is no way that this standard of clutch should be worn out through day to day driving on public roads.


Just remember the clutch hasn't failed, it is worn out. Yes a lot sooner than expected and a lot sooner than i have ever seen before. I do feel a moral obligation to everyone i deal with hense all the help i offered Les but that does not mean we will rectify any issues for free,



Spandex said:


> The warranty is a voluntary thing and is completely separate to the legal rights of the consumer. It's not related to the item being fit for purpose and has no bearing on it. From a legal standpoint, Les would argue that the part is not as durable as he could reasonably expect it to be, thus making it not fit for purpose and technically putting Awesome in breach of contract. I guess it would (if it ever came to that) be up to a judge to determine whether or not you can reasonably expect a clutch to last more than 18k miles over it's lifetime. I don't think the judge would be overly interested in what the warranty was if it reached that stage.


I agree with you and if Les feels like Awesome is not / has not treated him fairly then i believe he should seek legal advise and press for a resolution that he is happy with,



4ndrew said:


> Well put John, it really does sound like you've gone above and beyond, just a shame it doesn't put les in a better situation. Let's just hope the independent testing comes up with an answer...


Thank you, i too wish it left Les in a better situation! If the testing does come up with anything i will be the first to jump on it and push for compensation for Les if possible,


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## AwesomeJohn (Apr 25, 2006)

tony_rigby_uk said:


> AwesomeJohn said:
> 
> 
> > This choice basically came about to keep it as cheap as possible and since another member on here has a car producing more power and has done for many 10's of thousands of miles we thought it our best option.
> ...


Yes Tony, that is right it was you,

In you big post you are bang on!


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## tony_rigby_uk (Nov 27, 2008)

bs0u0118 said:


> It may not be a legal obligation for either party to offer a remedy as the warranty has expired, however, I believe the moral and just action would be to offer one.
> 
> Regardless, to a degree, the warranty is irrelevant as you have a statutory right to expect durability under Sale of Goods
> 
> The fact still remains that a 'peformance' clutch has failed after 2yrs and 18,000 miles which just isn't acceptable in my opinion. Regardless of the 12 month warranties, the product was clearly not fit for purpose. There is no way that this standard of clutch should be worn out through day to day driving on public roads.





Spandex said:


> The warranty is a voluntary thing and is completely separate to the legal rights of the consumer. It's not related to the item being fit for purpose and has no bearing on it. From a legal standpoint, Les would argue that the part is not as durable as he could reasonably expect it to be, thus making it not fit for purpose and technically putting Awesome in breach of contract. I guess it would (if it ever came to that) be up to a judge to determine whether or not you can reasonably expect a clutch to last more than 18k miles over it's lifetime. I don't think the judge would be overly interested in what the warranty was if it reached that stage.


Just Something Else to NOTE, I know alot of people with helix clutches. One of which is not a member on here but currently selling his car (Formally "SpenTT" AKA Spencer long) His clutch has been fitted for many more miles, around the same time as les's.

Lots of people saying the Product is "not durable" and "clearly not fit for purpose" ect. ect. ect. but really it's the same product that has been fitted on Countless VAG cars without a issue... and to be honest any "Judge" would be presented with sales figures, then Figures from how many from that particular batch that was made failed. (answer being 1 les's) then the judge cannot possibly rule in les's favour. it's circumstancial to say the least. it's a wear part. that is fine in countless cars.. therefore the product is "Fit for purpose" and "durable" on all the other TT's and Vags they are fitted to.. THERE IS SOMETHING DIFFERENT HERE. IF THE PRODUCT HASN'T FAILED THEN THERE IS SOMETHING AMISS WITH THE CAR OR DRIVING STYLE..TO CAUSE EXCESSIVE WEAR, (it's the only logical explanation) if this was a problem with the product they'd have stopped making it and changed the design a year after the launch of the TT, the fact is the product has been fitted fine for YEARS !!!! (it's the only logical explanation)

Unless you can find something else to go on your all encouraging les to enter a legal battle that is going to leave him out of pocket again, as the evidence isn't enough to take the biggest aftermarket clutch manufacture to the cleaners...


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## bigsyd (Jul 9, 2008)

I am a million miles away from a mechanic and have no idea about clutches, but to me even if les drove like a tool more than he usually does in the mileage that he has covered he could not wear out that clutch next helix say there is no manufacturing fault it has just worn out, I would not think that les would ride the clutch so much that he has caused this
So to me the only thin that is left is that the car itself has caused this problem, not due to power and as tony said nothing was sounding alarm bells when it was re fitted to the new engine but some how some mechanical reason that the clutch is say just slightly engaged and after the length of time it has been running on the new engine it basically wore out
I am only talking a slight catching but with time and engine speed it did it
Something has happened after it was fitted to the new car :? :? :?


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## tony_rigby_uk (Nov 27, 2008)

as always syd I agree with you but i know it is very easy to burn a clutch out.. hell i even know people who have had a car and bin worried and stonned the clutch to get a new one under warrenty when it's less than 3 years old.. The thing here is any torralance is removed with the solid flywheel. not to mention the unbalanced noise. so something that you may get away with in a stoick clutch you won't with a performance.. In general in my experience using the clutch as more of a switch is how they like it... "ON then OFF" no INBETWEEN and find the bite point.. it's abit like how i use my stock clutch.. Handbrake is for a hill NOT using your clutch to stop rolling back.

The power element of the clutch may in-fact not be suited to a slow delivery of power. as the clutch is made for racing changes.. therefore may not like the slow release of clutch and slower delivery of power... I can't say...but surly it's not clean cut... if you want the clutch to handle the power and clamp well to avoid slip, in normal driving you may find the clutch too harsh and resort to bad practice which in fact is damaging the clutch (so you've lost drivability but gained power delivery). I'm not by any means saying this is the case but a Racing clutch should be treated like a racing clutch..


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## Matt B (Apr 8, 2007)

Lets not entertain the idea that Les's driving has caused this. Like he said, 111000 on the original 70k by him
Very similar story on my silver TT, changed at 111,000 and I bought the car with just under 60000.
Les knows how to drive a car.

I am interested to know how much of a favour awesome did you on the replacement clutch with the special rates.
Perhaps Les will tell us, but for comparison I had my standard clutch replaced with standard including DMF and new master cylinder for £845 by Midland VW - no special rate - that was the price.

How much cheaper than that was it Les??


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## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

Hi Les,

Mate. I'm really sorry to read about this. I can't offer any words of advice and I'm sure you've been inundated with suggestions about how to seek resolution plus I haven't read the whole thread. :lol:

I'm curious to know who Helix are. I can't say it's a brand I'm familiar with and I did do a lot of research into performance clutches when my original let slip so I'm amazed they missed the radar.

I eventually went with a Sachs organic. I know that may be no consolation for you at this stage but it might help you choose a replacement. I had it fitted at APS and they did a damned good job.

Whatever you do I wish you luck mate. It's a right pain when things go tits up and I hope Awesome see the value in providing you with a satisfactory solution.

There's nothing like PR and there's little worse than bad PR. However PR from a happy customer is priceless. I hope Awesome do the business for you. :wink:

cheers

rich


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## les (Jul 24, 2006)

Thank you for all your support, advice and concern over this issue. I am at my girlfriends at the mo and will be staying here tonight. I have been following all the posts on my phone and am now on my girlfriends PC. I will post more tomorrow on the issue when I am home as I have a number of comments to make on some of the replies. I have I believe kept to the facts in my first post and refrained from pointing any fingers. More to follow tomorrow.

Once again thanks to all.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

tony_rigby_uk said:


> Lots of people saying the Product is "not durable" and "clearly not fit for purpose" ect. ect. ect. but really it's the same product that has been fitted on Countless VAG cars without a issue... and to be honest any "Judge" would be presented with sales figures, then Figures from how many from that particular batch that was made failed. (answer being 1 les's) then the judge cannot possibly rule in les's favour.
> 
> Unless you can find something else to go on your all encouraging les to enter a legal battle that is going to leave him out of pocket again, as the evidence isn't enough to take the biggest aftermarket clutch manufacture to the cleaners...


The judge won't be deciding whether or not someone else's clutch is fit for purpose, only Les's. Sales figures mean nothing.

Also, I don't think anyone is encouraging Les to do anything. He's (more than) old enough to listen to what people are saying and make his own mind up. I have no idea what he should do.. I don't see the point in pretending he can't do anything though.


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## techfreak (Aug 13, 2010)

I was wondering how long it would take for les's granddaddy satus to emerge in the thread lol

To me it can only be one of two things...
A) manufacturing error (can happen, even if it was 1 out of the X batch made)
B) something mechanical with car causing it to wear quicker than expected.

Or a combination of both. i wonder what would have happened if you had done those miles within a year and it went?

Either way the only course of action (after indepenedent investigation) would be legal action against Awesome. More time and money on your part and not the kind of thing you would do with a company you enjoy working with, I'm sure.

So then what? Nothing i guess, put it down to karma, bad luck, whatever and move on?


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## tony_rigby_uk (Nov 27, 2008)

no offence spandex, but how can you prove it's no fit for purpose, if it's been said it "looks like it has many more miles on it" les's may not have been fit for purpose but a engineers report has deemed it fine and no premature failure of any element, so something has gone a miss..

1) Fault with the car and the height of pedal causing dragging of clutch, (be it pedal, fluid, cylinders)
2) Fault with the Driver
3) Some sort of damage to the clutch due to number of times it's been removed, whats helix's stance on this? although damage should be picked up in the report...

I think you'd find it very difficult to prove that a proven product can look like it's got 100k on it after 18k unless something is wrong. and would also beg the question how many people would fit a second hand clutch if their engine developed a fault.. in effect thats what happened, be it his clutch or one from a scrapyard off a crashed TT.

Just to throw this out there, but perhaps the clutch was damaged the same time the engine failed... :?


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## L33JSA (Jun 30, 2010)

Les

Sorry to hear about your clutch issues mate - you've got the patience of a saint with your car!!

My stance is as follows...

Les had driven 70k on a standard clutch/DMF setup in his car that had never had its gearbox & engine split apart before.
Awesome recommended he fitted a single mass flywheel together with a Helix uprated clutch plate & cover presumably (out of interest what car is this setup originally for) - he took their advice due to them being VAG experts (I'll reserve judgement on this term)
2years/18,000 miles later the clutch wears out
In that time the engine has been changed and the clutch swapped over to the new engine, also the clutch slave cylinder has failed. All work that has been carried out to Les' car has been done and advised by Awesome - also the wear to the clutch wasnt spotted when the engine was swapped over...or was it? If not perhaps at that stage it wasnt worn!?

So.....surely one of the following is true...

1.) Les caused the clutch to wear prematurely due to his driving style - in which case its his own fault (doubtful due to the mileage his original OE clutch covered - I know hes a bit old & senile but I cant see his driving style changing that much!)
2.) Product was inheritantly faulty - in which case its down to Awesome (apparently been ruled out by Helix themselves)
3.) Product was not fit for purpose - in which case its down to Awesome
4.) Product had been recommended incorrectly (ties in with 3.) - in which case its down to Awesome
5.) Product was fitted incorrectly - in which case its down to Awesome
6.) Whatever work has been done to Les' car in the past 18000 miles has caused the clutch to wear out - in which case its down to Awesome

John @ Awesome - question if I may - strictly speaking then this OE clutch setup should theoretically last less than 18000 miles in Les' car then if there was nothing wrong with the uprated setup - after all the Helix setup is uprated and if that only lasts 18000 miles, a standard one may only last 12000 miles. If in fact in 2 years time when Les would of hopefully done more than 18000 miles on his standard clutch what would your take be on the situation then?

If I was Les I think I'd be wanting at the very least for Awesome to fit a new standard OE setup back into my car at no cost to me - especially after the money he has already spent with yourselves over the past few years - it would have cost Awesome what - 300 quid for the parts (maybe less @ trade price) plus a days labour to fit it (if that). You'd still be quids in after the money you have made from Les over the past few months but you'd of made sure that you kept one of your best customers happy and guaranteed that he would return for further work - if I was Les I doubt I'd be stepping foot back into your garage after this recent issue.


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## Matt B (Apr 8, 2007)

I am amazed at the fact that Awesome asked Les to deal with Helix direct.

Imagine going into a Curry's or something to return a TV that had died after a month or something (just an example of early lifetime failure) only to be handed panasonic's phone number and being told to sort it out yourself. Wouldnt make me very happy about the level of customer service I was getting.


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## Mark Davies (Apr 10, 2007)

Just to clarify how I understand the law (and only to reiterate what others have said) any warranty period quoted for parts is purely arbitrary and has no bearing whatsoever on someone's statutory consumer rights. You could offer a warranty for a single day but that doesn't mean if something fell apart on the second day you'd not be liable.

I know the guys at Awesome and they always do their very best to sort out any problems customers have. This is not by way of any kind of criticism of them - I'm just advising on what I believe to be the legal position.

I think it's a fair basis to start from that you'd expect a clutch to last for considerably longer than 2 years and 18k miles. A 12 month warranty makes no difference to that. And I think Tony is barking up the wrong tree completely to suggest it has anything to do with Les's driving - as others have pointed out his previous clutch survived 70k miles of his driving and another 40k before that. I doubt Les has gone bonkers since he had the clutch fitted and changed the way he drives so Helix wouldn't get very far with that argument. It's also irrelevant that Helix have produced loads of other clutches that have lasted longer, except in helping Les prove that his clutch wasn't up to standard. Les isn't complaining about all the other clutches - he's complaining about his and if everyone else's lasted much longer he should reasonably expect that his would too. However Tony does have a point about the potential for other faults on the car being responsible for the excessive wear, given the major work it has had done since the clutch was fitted. I'd suggest it would be worthwhile exploring that. Contact Helix and see if they can suggest what else could be wrong with the car that would cause their clutch to wear out so quickly and then check out any suggestions they make.

Ultimately I can't see what Les could have done wrong that could lay the blame for this at his door. No amount of driving around like a complete f*ckwit should wear a clutch out within 20% of its expected lifetime. Possibly it could be the consequence of something else failing on the car resulting in the excessive wear, but I don't understand the mechanics enough to be able to suggest any possibility. See if that can be eliminated. Failing that then the only other conclusions can be manufacturing fault or the fitting. Regardless of the time elapsed I still think Les is covered by the Sale of Goods Act.


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## quattrouble (Sep 19, 2011)

L33JSA said:


> Les
> 
> Sorry to hear about your clutch issues mate - you've got the patience of a saint with your car!!
> 
> ...


*this*


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## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

Well what do you make of this? :roll:

http://tinyurl.com/64fvw3k


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## tony_rigby_uk (Nov 27, 2008)

Matt B said:


> Imagine going into a Curry's or something to return a TV that had died after a month or something (just an example of early lifetime failure) only to be handed panasonic's phone number and being told to sort it out yourself. Wouldnt make me very happy about the level of customer service I was getting.


Been there done that, Failed samsung, 12months 26days after purchase. took back to Comet they said i had not taken the extended warranty therefore it's manufacture issue, here's samsungs number. phoned samsung, would cost £400 for a engineer to come and fix it.. Scoured the internet and it was a known fault, (a set of capacitors) order a kit off ebay (£5) and fixed it myself...

If les's clutch had failed instantly or within a month (like the slave did) awesome would have fixed it.. (Like they did with the slave), just like curry's would give you an exchange when you TV failed in a month, you go back with the same TV after 12months and i'm sure you'll get the same thing i got from Comet..


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## AwesomeJohn (Apr 25, 2006)

Ok I'm having a good read through and trying to pick out what is the most relevant. If I miss anything please pick me up on it.

Thank you to everyone who has posted on here, I won't deny it is very challenging for me but I would like you thank you all for being so professional and respectful with your posts.

Also I would like to mention I have not accused Les of being the cause of the failure, yes the clutch was inspected at the time Les had the second hand engine fitted in September 2010 and everything seemed fine. The car drove fine, no selection issues which would suggest it could be dragging,

We have sold around 80 or so of these clutches over the years and never had this issue before. Helix clutches are all handmade and assembled so that would never rule out man error, if this was the case though I cannot believe it would have lasted this amount of time if it was down to an assembly issue.

My main thoughts are if the friction material of the clutch plate is of a substandard quality for some reason (never seen before) this is why I would like to get it independently tested or was there something at the time of the engine failure that could have caused a drastic reduction in the life of the clutch even though it looked fine at the time it was refitted,

The car was checked toughly at the time we put the standard clutch in and everything checked out ok,

One more thing is have any of you tried to see how easy it is to make your clutch slip?

In a high gear at low speed take the free play out of the pedal, then very gently apply pressure to the clutch pedal at the same time as applying some throttle, the clutch pedal will hardly have to move (and i'm talkig mm's) and it will slip.

Pretty pointless i know but if you try it you will be supprised.



Matt B said:


> Lets not entertain the idea that Les's driving has caused this. Like he said, 111000 on the original 70k by him
> Very similar story on my silver TT, changed at 111,000 and I bought the car with just under 60000.
> Les knows how to drive a car.
> 
> ...


As you well know the friction material on an uprated clutch is a lot thinner than an OE one, I also believe it is softer too so it increases friction to hold to the cover better, with something causing the clutch to slip slightly over a prolonged period of time this is why it must have worn out so quickly. Everything on the car checks out fine and I don't believe it's down to Les's driving.

I charged Les £619.14 and don't forget this was not just a straight forward clutch swap, we did spend at least another 2 hours checking the car over to see if there was any more issues.



> John @ Awesome - question if I may - strictly speaking then this OE clutch setup should theoretically last less than 18000 miles in Les' car then if there was nothing wrong with the uprated setup - after all the Helix setup is uprated and if that only lasts 18000 miles, a standard one may only last 12000 miles. If in fact in 2 years time when Les would of hopefully done more than 18000 miles on his standard clutch what would your take be on the situation then?


There is only one other person i know with this set up fitted after having stage 2 (Tony Rigby) i know he loves to give his car a good thashing and it has lasted him well, must be over 3 years now. I was going to do the same in my car and after a lengthy conversation with Les he chose to go for the OE set up. God anly knows what would happen in 2 year if the same happened, i really don't want to even think about it if i am honest!



Matt B said:


> I am amazed at the fact that Awesome asked Les to deal with Helix direct.
> 
> Imagine going into a Curry's or something to return a TV that had died after a month or something (just an example of early lifetime failure) only to be handed panasonic's phone number and being told to sort it out yourself. Wouldnt make me very happy about the level of customer service I was getting.


Les can clear this up for you, I did offer to do it however I asked Les to speak to them because as a supplier I would have only been told it was out of its 12 month warranty and to go away, Awesome arranged the delivery and paid for the clutch to be sent back. A TV carry's the same 12 month warranty the clutch does so in effect it would be the same as going back to Curry's 12 months after the warranty had run out and we all know where that would have got you, we would all expect a TV to last longer than 2 years too.


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## Mark Davies (Apr 10, 2007)

Tony, you seem to be stuck in the same mindset of the majority that allows retailers to fob-off their customers. The law puts the consumer firmly in the driving seat and gives the buyer the benefit of the doubt - this is not driven by the seller! When they turn round and tell you "It's out of warranty so it's a manufacturing issue" they are quite literally fobbing you off with a load of bollocks. There is no legal standing whatsoever for a fixed term warranty and your legal recourse is _always_ with the person who sold you the goods, never the manufacturer.

Regardless of whether the retailer or manufacturer places an arbitrary 12 month warranty on their products, if there is a reasonable expectation that those goods should last considerably longer then when they fail you are still covered by the Sale of Goods Act. Are you seriously saying that a reasonable buyer would only expect a television to last for a year? Of course not!

Your example with Comet is not an illustration of the limits of consumer rights, it's an example of the buying public's ignorance and naivity. I suggest you check out the links I posted for Les and get an understanding of exactly what your rights are. In future I think you'll find when you start quoting chapter and verse of the Sale of Goods Act to people you will get much better satisfaction. Trust me, _they_ know what their responsibilities are perfectly - they need to so that they can do their best to duck and dive them!

It's to John's credit that he's clearly trying his best to offer Les good customer service and it seems they're both stuck up against a less than willing Helix. Reading the thread on the Ford forum it seems clear customer service is not a forte of theirs. Obviously Awesome don't want to be out of pocket as a result of being supplied faulty goods which they have unfortunately passed on in good faith and I can understand them being hesitant to settle with Les until they know Helix will meet their obligations, but the strict legal position would suggest that if all other factors have been eliminated and it does come down to a fault with the product then Awesome should rectify that with Les first and then seek recourse from Helix. The former should not be dependant on the latter and Les shouldn't be left waiting indefinately on the result of a row between retailer and manufacturer - that's not his problem.

That said I know Les to be a patient and reasonable bloke and I'm sure you guys can work something out between you. You're much more likely to get a result from Helix when working together.


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## AwesomeJohn (Apr 25, 2006)

Mark

You posts for Les are very well put together and very informative, I am actually enjoying reading them as the information in them goes far beyond my knowledge of the law. Tony I must admit has put across exactly what my understanding is, that once out of its warranty period that was pretty much it,


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## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

tony_rigby_uk said:


> Been there done that, Failed samsung,


With apologies for going OT...

Tony did your lose sound? Mine just has! What did you need to fix it?

Cheers

Rich


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## Mark Davies (Apr 10, 2007)

AwesomeJohn said:


> Tony I must admit has put across exactly what my understanding is, that once out of its warranty period that was pretty much it,


No, it's not the case. There's no legal basis for warranties at all. They are invariably for 12 months but why should that be an appropriate working life for anything and everything ranging from a toaster to a camera to a television or a car clutch? It makes no sense. Most people presume there's some sort of legal principle that once you've owned something for a year and a day then you can no longer complain when it goes wrong, but there simply isn't. In reality it's something that's developed just to give sellers an excuse to fob people off. I appreciate there's no intention or will on your part to do that - this has just been common practice for so long that everyone just assumes it must be right. However there's a reason why all these warranties come with the disclaimer, "Your statutory rights are not affected". Your statutory rights supercede everything and make these arbitrary warranties irrelevant.

Always what it comes down to is what a reasonable person would expect to be a reasonable working life for a product and if something wears out or breaks before it really ought to then you have some legal recourse. The only time-limiting factor is whether or not you can expect a full refund and the general principle is that you should only expect a refund if a fault was found more or less straight away. After that the retailer is only obliged to take reasonable steps to rectify the problem, which in normal circumstances would be either repairing the product to a satisfactory standard or supplying a replacement.

In this case clearly you wouldn't be obliged to give Les his money back regardless of what was found to be the cause of the clutch failure. I think there's universal agreement that a clutch ought to last longer than 2 years or 18k miles with normal usage so the 12 month warranty really makes no difference - it should have lasted considerably longer than a year so Les is still protected by his statutory rights under the Sale of Goods Act.

As I see it the premature failure could only be due to 3 factors: (1) a manufacturing fault, (2) fitting issues, (3) a contributory fault on the car. As I've already argued I think the idea of putting it down to Les's driving style is just rubbish. Even as a general principle as long as Les isn't doing anything with his car beyond what might reasonably be expected from the wide range of the majority of drivers then the manufacturer should be supplying a product capable of being put to that use. That pretty much covers everything except actual racing. Suggesting 'spirited driving' as an excuse is plain ridiculous! And besides, the simple fact that his previous clutch survived his 'driving style' for an acceptable time puts that one to bed anyway.

In the case of (1) or (2) then Awesome have the primary obligation to Les to rectify the matter. As I say, you're not obliged to give him his money back. It would be sufficient to either repair or replace his clutch. Les could argue lack of confidence in the product and refuse a replacement Helix clutch and ask for an alternative, such as the OEM kit you've fitted. Regardless of the fact that the new clutch is cheaper than the Helix he is not in a position to ask for a refund of the difference. You will have discharged your obligations by supplying a suitable replacement fit for purpose. You'd be obliged to refund Les the money he paid for the replacement. Labour costs are a grey issue however. Arguably the fitting is a seperate service to the supply of the goods and if there's been no issue with the fitting itself then you have no obligation to refund those costs. Les will argue he wouldn't have had to pay the fitting costs but for the supply of faulty goods but your response would be you're not legally obliged to fit them - just to supply the replacement. It would seem sensible to come to some sort of mutually acceptable arrangement on that.

Subsequent to that, in the case of (1) and it can be shown to be a manufacturing fault Awesome then have exactly the same recourse against Helix as their customer as Les had with you. I'd suggest you'd need an independant report to say the clutch was at fault as it seems unlikely that Helix will accept that otherwise.

If the clutch is found to have been fine and it seems to be a fitting issue, as in case (2), then unfortunately Awesome would just have to swallow the cost and refund the full cost of fitting the replacement OEM kit.

And that leaves case (3) - the possibility that something else has failed on the car which has then contributed to the premature failure of an otherwise perfectly fine clutch. Now, regardless of the fact that you checked the car over when the clutch was fitted I'd argue that you cannot reasonably be expected to find each and every fault on a car with a 2 hour inspection. To declare the car faultless would surely require stripping it down and cleaning and inspecting every individual component. That's clearly not practical nor reasonable. You can do your best to try and spot any faults but you couldn't be held to have any legal obligations for any subsequent failures. Therefore if something else has packed-in and ruined Les's clutch than that's simply rotten bad luck and Les will just have to swallow it. As a close analogy my rear tyres were wearing out very quickly and not lasting as long as I might have expected. That turned out to be due to worn bushes. Quite obviously it's not Michelin's fault that my bushes caused their tyres to wear out nor is it the fault of the people who supplied and fitted the tyres because they didn't spot the bushes were shot. Equally if something else was wrong on Les's car that's not your fault either.

Ultimately for yourselves it all boils down to the time and expense involved in finding the answers to the questions compared with the costs of just sorting it out. There are no obligations in law to say whose responsibility it is to investigate the matter. In the end it all comes down to the eventuality of arguing a case in court and each party would be responsible for producing the evidence to support their own arguments. If an independant inspection is required to settle it then I guess that's down to Les, though if you were then to use that in a claim against Helix he could reasonably expect you to pay for the use of the report. I imagine in reality you'd sort something out between yourselves.

So that's the entire legal position as I understand it. I'll qualify it by saying I'm not a solicitor currently practicing in this area of law, but I did study it in depth as a student and nothing has changed since so I'm reasonably confident I've represented it correctly. I hope it's of some use to everyone involved. Best of luck sorting it out!


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

Another point to bear in mind is that your statutory rights as a consumer continue forever, from the day you purchase a product. There is no end date on them. The only thing that changes over time is what you can *reasonably* expect from the product you bought (and therefore the extent of recourse you can reasonably expect from the retailer).


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## bigsyd (Jul 9, 2008)

I am working at a customers house next week who is a good friend and also a magistrate , I will ask what her view is on this situation


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## Danny1 (Sep 2, 2010)

Note to self, never let Mark buy anything from me......

You seem very knowlegable on the subject of complaining, so for eg, can you advise me how long a set of tyres "should" last on my TT? just so i can burn them out 1 month before and then ring you to help me get a free set.

Im not trying to insult anyone, or say anyone is right or wrong, I just dont see how any judge/company will even listen to your argument on the basis of "should" last X time.


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## les (Jul 24, 2006)

Right I am back home now and can add more to my post.

First of all I spoke with John and informed him I was not happy with the clutch wearing out in such a short time and told him I would be speaking to Helix direct on the matter. Not sure who maybe John gave me their telephone number and I spoke to a guy called Steve there. When I spoke to Steve the the second time shortly afterwards he informed me that Awesome were to send the full clutch back for examination. Most of you know I took the opportunity to take quite a few photographs of the clutch parts before it was returned to Helix.

I have been going back through my invoices starting with the new SH engine and can report the following:-

Date new engine fitted 14 October 2010 but for some reason no mileage is recorded on the invoice. This is very odd as when I look at the rest of my invoices they all have the mileage recorded on them by Awesome. As stated previously I had to take the car back the following day as an "O" ring had failed and the clutch lost a considerable amount of clutch fluid. I am informed that no fluid reached the internal parts of the clutch as the leak was external on the clutch release bearing "O" ring.

On the 12 December 2010 some 2 months after the engine was fitted I took the car to Awesome to have an airbag warning light on the dash checked out. The mileage recorded on the invoice is 124,351 miles.

On the 15 July 2011 some 7 months after my last visit the car was back at Awesome to have a full service and a few odd jobs done. Mileage recorded is 128,835.

On the 30 September 9.1/2 months after my new clutch was fitted. The mileage recorded is 130,594 
The clutch will have been slipping well before this date and mileage. I first noticed it approx a month before but thought I must have been imagining things until it got worse. Now given I only noticed the clutch slipping when I put my foot down in 4th great or above its reasonable to assume it must have been on its way out for a while how much who knows.

Now given John states the clutch "looked fine at the time it was refitted," to the new engine and given the mileages recorded between the 17 Dec 2010 and the 15 July 2011 was 4484 miles more miles being put on the car and clutch. Now in 7 months then its reasonable and fair to assume I will have travelled no more than 8000 (possibly max 9000 miles tops) when my Helix clutch was replaced with the new OEM one after my new engine was fitted.

So what happened between my new engine being fitted and 8000 miles later that caused my clutch to wear excessively? 
Now as I have stated I can't believe it was my driving style as I know thats never changed but it would appear the clutch went from in a good condition to one looking like it had done over 100,000 miles.

I went for an OEM clutch due to the fact I had lost faith in Helix clutches and the fact I could not aford another uprated clutch and the fact I knew a number of people are running Revo stage 2 plus as with Tony Rigby and many miles later have no problem with OEM clutches.

All the above are facts as I have tried to keep to them with perhaps the exception of the exact mileage which should have been recorded by Awesome when the new engine was installed in my car. Perhaps John can explain why no mileage was recorded when my new engine was installed.

So am I happy well of course not who would be given the FACTS. Whats reasonable for me and Awesome to expect? I honestly don't know at this stage. Yes I could go down the small claims court and take my chances. I am no stranger to going to court as I did on a number of occasions as an expert witness with my job However do I want to go down that route given Awesome have always been very fair with me in the past? Maybe an intermediate would be the way forward somebody who both would respect the outcome from. However if you asked 10 people what was a reasonable settlements in this case you may well come up with 10 different views.

Syd if you are reading this then I would be interested in what your magistrate friend will have to say on the matter.

I also appreciated what all (Mark Davies especially for his legal advice) have said but thank each and everyone for keeping treating thread with a certain amount of decorum on track and focused.


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## tony_rigby_uk (Nov 27, 2008)

perhaps something else cause the clutch to start slipping.. once started they will tear the wear pad on the clutch.. hense you can burn a brand new clutch out in 30 seconds if it's dragging.. (trust me in frustration i've done it when the release bearing slipped) if it's been slipping and driven for a month that will take the life out of the clutch pad.. so maybe there is another reason for the initial slipping to occour..

If you have driven a a new clutch that for some reason is slipping for a while then it will look SHAGGED.. they get hot and disintigrate due to the friction failing.. However i am very curious to know how you never smelt it..

I remember having a Hoo ha and a play with you at one of the meets.. we were side by side at some lights and after i could smell clutch and was asking if it was mine or yours... :lol: :lol: not saying it's related as that may have been your old clutch.. but if it's started to slip from the pressur plate springs wearing, after driving it slipping for that amount of time it'll have exaserbated the wear on the clutch... so perhaps it may not been as bad if spotted earlier. it's all speculation and unfortuntly i don't think a answer will be found.. Maybe the pressure plate had become weak after being removed... and put back in the new engine. maybe the plug ontop of the gearbox is missing and some contaminates have go in...

I know when my clutch started 3rd gear as soon as boost came in the revs were rising but not the speed.. in hindsight as soon as the slipping started it should have been looked at and if clutch slip was agreed diagnosis then strip down.. to drive a slipping clutch for a month will have made the pad wear more. meaning anyother failure is hidden away as just "Wear and Tear"

I know hindsight is great but after driving a slipping clutch for a month.. as normal not nursing it... usually would score the flywheel. which leads me to belive there was plenty meat on the pad before it started to slip... therefore the failure is with something else.... pressure plate, contaminate, the flywheel, resistance in the gearbox.. ect. ect.


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## ViperOneZero (Sep 4, 2008)

Its very easy to look at the sales if goods act online, and then decide to become the inhouse solicitor. Its a most unfortunate scenario, especially in these times of economic uncertainty etc.

When company reputation is at stake then I as the victim would be sending the clutch to an independent expert.. it may be the case that the friction material was substanard, or that traces of clutch fluid contamination caused the fault.. there are so many variables to be argued... The shock of a seized engine juddering clutch springs..

Helix may require les's vehicle for a full inspection , awesome called to court, legal bills building up... On the otherhand poor les is out of pocket. Do you put yourself through a long and drawn out court process, or put your experiences down to something unfortunate(cut your losses) ...

Its a stinker of a scenario... Morally i think Awesome should have replaced, Les's clutch for free ... After all he's a loyal customer... This is such a chore typing on my phone!


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## Mark Davies (Apr 10, 2007)

Danny1 said:


> Note to self, never let Mark buy anything from me......
> 
> You seem very knowlegable on the subject of complaining, so for eg, can you advise me how long a set of tyres "should" last on my TT? just so i can burn them out 1 month before and then ring you to help me get a free set.
> 
> Im not trying to insult anyone, or say anyone is right or wrong, I just dont see how any judge/company will even listen to your argument on the basis of "should" last X time.


Danny, there are no hard and fast rules - it's all about reasonable expectations. It's a common theme in law and that is why we have courts - to make a judgement on what is reasonable and what is not. Nobody is going to pass a judgement against a supplier because a product has only lasted 90% of the use expected. There is obviously an expectation of variance. However, a case where something has only lasted 20% of its expected working life is very much more clear-cut, wouldn't you say?

I'm not knowledgeable about complaining, I'm knowledgeable about commercial, contract and consumer law. We _all_ should understand our rights better and then perhaps we wouldn't get ripped-off quite so often, so instead of coming along and having a knock why not do yourself a favour and take a look at the links I posted in my first reply on this thread. Learn your rights and then it may just save you a lot of money in future.

Les/John, the point Tony is making is a very valid one. When he was saying Helix have made loads of clutches that haven't failed he's making the argument that it doesn't appear initially to be a widespread production problem. It would be odd (though not impossible) for a single clutch to have a catastrophic fault due to materials. If the clutch appears to have been assembled correctly and fitted properly then the next most likely conclusion is that there is some other factor on the car that has contributed to the premature failure. Before paying someone else to examine the clutch I'd suggest having a good look at the car for anything else that could have caused this. I don't know anything about the mechanics so can't make any suggestions but I'm sure you guys will have some ideas. I'm pretty sure you'd need to eliminate that before getting any joy from Helix so it seems the most logical 'next step'.

Syd, I'm not sure how much help your magistrate friend would be. They're most likely only sitting on criminal cases so this is not going to be an area of law they'll have much knowledge about. Bear in mind most have no legal training at all and rely on the clerks of the court to advise them on legal points. No harm in asking though.


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## les (Jul 24, 2006)

Mark Davies said:


> Before paying someone else to examine the clutch I'd suggest having a good look at the car for anything else that could have caused this. I don't know anything about the mechanics so can't make any suggestions but I'm sure you guys will have some ideas. I'm pretty sure you'd need to eliminate that before getting any joy from Helix so it seems the most logical 'next step'.


Mark, in one of Johns posts above he does state they spent 2 hours checking the car out to see if they could find anything that may have caused the clutch to wear out prematurely. However I am in conversation with John and when I have the clutch back I will be taking it into Awesome. One of the things they will do is reexamine the car to see how the new clutch is fairing and to have another look at it to see if they can spot anything amiss. Only then will we consider having the clutch examined by an independent engineer.

I was asked by John what I wanted out of all this and I replied "whatever is considered reasonable" I am just unsure as to what would be considered reasonable in this case. I think until we know more about the clutch issue then its not possible to say what is or what is not reasonable at this stage. What I will say is that I am more than willing to go into some sort of arbitration based on a reasonable assumption to be made by a 3rd party. However I believe we can only do that once all reasonable avenues have been exhausted whatever reasonable turns out to be and all reasonable examinations and investigations have been carried out short of dismantling the clutch again to see if anything unto wards is going on.

I hope after all said and done that would not mean having to go to the courts to decide what is reasonable and I have no wish to fall out with Awesome who have been good with me in the past. Being the NW rep for the TT club I have sent a number of Audi TT club and non club members to Awesome over the years and I know they have done some good business due to my recommendation to them. I have also arranged group buys and various other events with Awesome so you see its a kind of reciprocal arrangement with a good relationship between customer and supplier being forged over the years. I have also spent tens of thousands of pounds with Awesome over the years I have had my car. How much value you put on all this is difficult to gauge IMO.


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## petesky (Jul 24, 2002)

This is a very sad tale and not that uncommon I would suspect. 
I genuinely feel very sad this sort of thing happens and I'm familiar with it myself.

It's very hard to see how Les can get some satisfaction here without taking on the risk of absorbing legal expenses and mechanical investigations should he fail. Not to mention the potential loss of goodwill between Awesome and himself.

Mark D. is correct in that reasonable product performance is expected. When you consider that with automotive parts they generally have to be fitted correctly then there's a massive grey area added as no legal council can state categorically that a part was fitted correctly once it has been removed.

The law will state that Awesome is the retailer and hence the direct contact for Les to resolve the issue.

I had an instance with John Lewis when I returned a faulty item after 2 months into a 12 month warranty and got the arrogant response of "why did you bring it in here? You need to contact Panasonic repair blah, blah".
Utter cr^p customer service and in fact wrong. JL were obliged to resolve the issue on my behalf.
This didn't matter too much really to me but the point is they were wrong and they later acknowledged this.

My gut reaction is that there's a problem with the engine itself or there's been some "settlement" after fitting which has caused the clutch to undertake accelerated stress/wear.
Lets not forget that so far the report on the clutch has come from Helix themselves, not an independent so they may be biased in their reporting. Also Awesome state themselves everything was good at time of fitting so again no independence.

Who can we trust?

Peter


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## AwesomeJohn (Apr 25, 2006)

As Mark states



> it's all about reasonable expectations. It's a common theme in law and that is why we have courts - to make a judgement on what is reasonable and what is not.


and as Les has said



> So am I happy well of course not who would be given the FACTS. Whats reasonable for me and Awesome to expect? I honestly don't know at this stage. Yes I could go down the small claims court and take my chances. I am no stranger to going to court as I did on a number of occasions as an expert witness with my job However do I want to go down that route given Awesome have always been very fair with me in the past? Maybe an intermediate would be the way forward somebody who both would respect the outcome from. However if you asked 10 people what was a reasonable settlements in this case you may well come up with 10 different views.


At the start of all this i was happy i had looked after Les as well as i could and as well as anyone would have expected us too. I know we have done nothing wrong as such (with regards to the fitment, ok we have "morally") otherwise the car would have been put right no question!

As stated in many of the posts the responsibility lies with Awesome as a retailer of the Helix product so if it did go to court it would be Awesome there not Helix,

This obviously is not a route that any of us really don't want to go down and of course should be avoided at all cost.

I have kept my director Mark Ash informed of this thread all the way through and we have decided that we should look in to this further, we need Les to arrange a time to come over to us preferably at the beginning of next week for a discussion on what his expectations are from us.

Just for everyone who is keeping track of this I would just like to make clear that Les is on first name terms with everyone here at Awesome including the directors and although at the time the standard clutch was replaced Les made it quite clear in his disappointment he never made it clear to us that the way we had dealt with him was not to his satisfaction. We did however continue to try and find fault with the Helix clutch. Obviously now everything is quite clear to us the Les has expected more from us, it is time for us to sit down and have a conversation and thrash out "whatever is considered reasonable"

Regards John


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## Danny1 (Sep 2, 2010)

AwesomeJohn said:


> As Mark states
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Cant ask for more than this, nice one John.


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## les (Jul 24, 2006)

AwesomeJohn said:


> at the time the standard clutch was replaced Les made it quite clear in his disappointment he never made it clear to us that the way we had dealt with him was not to his satisfaction.


My disappointment was that I had paid a premium for a clutch I was told would be far stronger than a OEM one and would last more or less the life of the car so that is what I expected from it. As to was I satisfied with the outcome. Well I certainly made my disappointment clear and I was between a rock and a hard place in that Awesome had my car and I clearly needed a new clutch. So with a discount from Awesome I agreed to have it replaced by them after all what was I to do.

Now the guys at Awesome know I intended to try and get to the bottom as to why my clutch had gone from being in a very good condition (yes I know that now) when my engine was replaced to being completely worn out in 8000 miles. I expected that when the clutch was send back to Helix they would find for whatever the reason the clutch or the fitment was in some way responsible for its early demise.

I honestly expected that to be the case and was somewhat shocked to be told nothing wrong with the fitting or the clutch itself or that any other fault with the car that could have caused the issue with the clutch. Had I been told it was a fitting issue or a defective clutch then of course I would have been banging on Awesomes door demanding a refund of some sort. I decided to wait until I had the reports back from Helix before taking matters further on here for now.



AwesomeJohn said:


> Obviously now everything is quite clear to us the Les has expected more from us, it is time for us to sit down and have a conversation and thrash out "whatever is considered reasonable"
> Regards John


As above I was expecting to hear that Helix had found the problem we now know that is not the case. I didn't start this thread with all guns blazing and pointing fingers. That is simply not my style and its not been my style while in conversation with John as he knows. I have tried ( and I believe have succeeded to keep both my posts and conversations with John amicable but that does not mean I am happy to have spent the best part of £2000 only to end up with an OEM clutch.

I have tried to keep to the facts. I am not by any stretch of the imagination a motor engineer so I go by those who know better in this case Awesome and Helix. However clearly something is not right and I should have got far more than 18000 out of the Helix clutch given the FACTS. The only thing I am clear about in my mind is that I don't believe my driving style is the cause of the clutch wearing out in such a short mileage. If anything my driving was even more conservative following the installation of my new engine and yet it appears that undue wear occurred after the fitting of the new engine.

I will ring Mark at Awesome tomorrow and have that chat with him and probably arrange to come in next week to try and resolve the issue.


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## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

Les, when they replaced your clutch did they replace the flywheel and was it marked?

Sorry if you have told us. I still haven't read the whole thread... :lol:


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## L33JSA (Jun 30, 2010)

rustyintegrale said:


> Les, when they replaced your clutch did they replace the flywheel and was it marked?
> 
> Sorry if you have told us. I still haven't read the whole thread... :lol:


He's got a single mass flywheel conversion so yes they did.



les said:


> One of the things they will do is reexamine the car to see how the new clutch is fairing and to have another look at it to see if they can spot anything amiss. Only then will we consider having the clutch examined by an independent engineer.


How do they intend on doing that without stripping it apart again - will they be charging you for this?



les said:


> Being the NW rep for the TT club I have sent a number of Audi TT club and non club members to Awesome over the years and I know they have done some good business due to my recommendation to them. I have also arranged group buys and various other events with Awesome so you see its a kind of reciprocal arrangement with a good relationship between customer and supplier being forged over the years. I have also spent tens of thousands of pounds with Awesome over the years I have had my car. How much value you put on all this is difficult to gauge IMO.


......and yes despite all this Les has got an OE clutch thats cost him £2000!!



AwesomeJohn said:


> I have kept my director Mark Ash informed of this thread all the way through and we have decided that we should look in to this further, we need Les to arrange a time to come over to us preferably at the beginning of next week for a discussion on what his expectations are from us.
> 
> Just for everyone who is keeping track of this I would just like to make clear that Les is on first name terms with everyone here at Awesome including the directors and although at the time the standard clutch was replaced Les made it quite clear in his disappointment he never made it clear to us that the way we had dealt with him was not to his satisfaction. We did however continue to try and find fault with the Helix clutch. Obviously now everything is quite clear to us the Les has expected more from us, it is time for us to sit down and have a conversation and thrash out "whatever is considered reasonable"


However this is much more like it......


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## caney (Feb 5, 2004)

Hi les,was it a sintered clutch plate as these can wear out faster under normal driving as they are designed for racing. I had 2 years of rubbish helix clutches slipping on launch and being scrapped at £1200 for the kit! In the end they gave me a replacement free of charge which i quickly sold on! Sachs all the way for me now,the helix pressure plate was so poor that the oem one used to hold more torque :?


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## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

L33JSA said:


> rustyintegrale said:
> 
> 
> > Les, when they replaced your clutch did they replace the flywheel and was it marked?
> ...


Why single mass? It's a road car FFS?! :?


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## les (Jul 24, 2006)

I went with "expert" advice from Awesome which included a Helix flywheel (not specified which but I believe its a single mass one (it rattled) as thats what I was advised to get) Helix pressure plate and a Helix organic clutch amongst other items.


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## bigsyd (Jul 9, 2008)

Let's not forget, and I DO speak from experience in this matter....no matter HOW much money you spend at awesome in the past and how friendly you think you are with them, they are a business

LES....STAND YOUR BLOODY GROUND :evil: and only accept an offer ( if there is one :roll: ) that you are happy about
Remember awesome is a business not a person

I wish I had your knowledge and determination a while ago :evil:

I wonder how long before this post gets locked or disappeared


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## Awesomemark (Feb 16, 2006)

Hi everyone

Can i just say that i personally feel that this thread should stay open and not get locked or deleted, there is some good valid points from everyone on here and it just goes to show how good this forum is, Awesome supports this forum and all of its members where ever we can.

I toatally back John with all his comments and information that he has posted on here to you guys and will stand tall with him through this, I was off yesterday but we had a chat about the way the thread was going and what Awesome could do to help, so at this stage i am waiting for a phonecall from les to arrange a time to come in and discuss this further, as i said its a discussion to find a happy medium whether or not at the moment that is possible im not sure but Les knows me and he knows i will do my best..

whilst i am sorting a few issues this week can I ask BigSyd if he would kindly do me a favour at his convenience and pop in and see me if he can next week for a behind the doors personal discussion, hopefully Syd you will give me the time for a chat.

Just for reference also yes Awesome is a business, but for many years we have also had many close friends and that is a major fact that we do not wish to lose, we may not get things right all the time and sometimes we dont always see how some company decisions may upset some loyal and very good customers, but how we deal with things after a problem is how a company can be judged.

I look forward to speaking to Les and hopefully Syd very shortly

Keep up the good work to all the Moderators and all the Forum members

Regards
Mark ash (Operations Director) Awesome


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## robokn (Feb 21, 2006)

Awesomemark said:


> whilst i am sorting a few issues this week can I ask BigSyd if he would kindly do me a favour at his convenience and pop in and see me if he can next week for a behind the doors personal discussion, hopefully Syd you will give me the time for a chat.


Sounds rather ominous,

I have read this thread every day and seem in grow, I fully understand both sides of the argument, However Les is not rolling in the lolly so 2k is a shed load of cash to end back where he started. I fully sympathise with Les and I would be looking at getting my 2k back

Sorry Awesome but he hasn't done anything wrong to deserve this kind of thread, Personally I would have sorted him out straight away as I can't imagine how much business he has put thru your doors and as always bad news travels a lot faster and further than good.


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## Awesomemark (Feb 16, 2006)

robokn said:


> Awesomemark said:
> 
> 
> > whilst i am sorting a few issues this week can I ask BigSyd if he would kindly do me a favour at his convenience and pop in and see me if he can next week for a behind the doors personal discussion, hopefully Syd you will give me the time for a chat.
> ...


I am not being drawn into a discussion about this, you can clearly see from my post my position, and this is a matter to discuss with Les himself, at this stage we have no conclusion as to why the clutch has worn out early.

Awesome too has done nothing wrong to deserve this sort of thread, the facts are for what ever reason it has worn out and lasted it's manufacturers warranty period, but i thought we had moved on from this point and were looking to discuss this directly with Les ! We are looking to find a happy medium ...end of story.


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## robokn (Feb 21, 2006)

Rather aggressive "end of story",

I think if you read the whole thread, you will see the warranty period of not really an issue, I totally agree that this is an issue between yourself and Les, But as one of your employee's has stated they were happy with this thread and that is the beauty of threads like this and there have been a few on here normally involving big turbo builds, It shows the camaraderie that is found in bundles here and it's very unusual for members not to get support in cases like this.

Please don't think I am trying to stir it up I *personally* would be extremely unhappy if I was in Les's predicament and I am sorry but 2k needs a lot of loyalty for me to wipe it under the table


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## Awesomemark (Feb 16, 2006)

robokn

I understand your point at support, but its time to draw an end to this and for John Les and I to discuss this in my office, I am not wanting to address the points on the forum as John has already done that, you mention this 2k figure but its not as simple as that as the car has had two years of motoring and before anybody jumps at me for saying that i am merely stating the facts as they are, i am trying to move on to help Les i am not wanting to spend my day in deep discussions on an issue that I myself have only just got involved with yesterday, i have made the statement that I am willing to talk to Les but i make no guarantees of any outcome at this stage but have said i will do my best for him.

As you and some of you will be aware as far as i am concerned we have been put in this situation by some unknown reason, and as Les states its not due to Poor fitment and Helix claim its not down to Poor product....so somewhere somehow we need to find the answer.

I hope you guys understand.

Regards Mark


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## Awesomemark (Feb 16, 2006)

I too stated this thread should carry on and not be locked, I didnt mean to come across aggressive, but i have stated that the discussion with Les at this stage is not closed but do not see the need to carry it on at this point on this thread.. Thanks once again


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## tony_rigby_uk (Nov 27, 2008)

Agreed, this post has gone a little bit off topic.. it is no longer the "tale" of my failed helix clutch, but more a "what would you expect awesome to do about my helix clutch"

To be fair at this moment in time with awesome offering to sit down and discuss with Les after awesome only learning of his Dis-satisfaction with them via this thread. so i believe they have done the right thing.. I know awesome, and i know they don't like being the barers of bad news and to be fair nobody like to hear bad news.. sometimes bills get racked up and jobs are more difficult than first thought. AT PRESENT THE RIGHT THING IS FOR THEM TO SIT DOWN... and not make commitments on here.

There has been comments of people paying x amount for clutches asking how much awesome have charged les, If awesome had been over that figure everyone would have jumped up and down, the fact they were 200 lower gets hidden away and no mention of it as the start of a gesture. before the clutch had even been sent away... Again if awesome believe they are not at fault, can you really say fairer than the price les got it for.. at the time the clutch had failed it was removed and looked like wear.. so a worn clutch, regardless of why it's worn is infact worn... If they removed the clutch and the pressure plate was all mangled and chewed then i'm sure it would have been a different matter as this would indicate a clear failing of a part....

As Les said, he expected helix to come back with a fail report on the clutch.. They didn't.. so he put this post up... I mean if you think Helix are going to lie then they may even send him a different clutch, as les said unfortunly he couldn't score it and mark it although he tried... Again if a fail report came back then i'm sure awesome would claim off helix for the part and labour or never stock their product again.. but as said.. IT HASN'T FAILED to the best of everyones knowledge.

But what would you all say if infact the louder knocking that les's clutch made was infact hiding the friction in the gearbox (due to another failure) and that it lead to the premature failure of the clutch... who's to say in 2years les won't be needing a clutch again due to that same issue????? if awesome have given les a clutch for "cheap" then where do they stand when it turns out to be a issue on the car...... can they take les to court to pay for difference they have given him in the good faith price of the clutch then????????

Like i said previously, too many unknowns with regards to this clutch..

but thinking you wheel spinning the car and instead your burning your clutch.









As said can give plenty of lessons of how to get your TT to eat a clutch in 24hours.. it's completely do'able...

Be interesting to know how many sets of tyres audi have paid for on the MK1 TT under warrenty?????? after all we all know without adustment to the rear the 02 onwards wear there tyres on the inside edge!!!!.. Do you claim off the place that fitted your tyres? do you claim of Michilin who made the tyres..? or audi who set the car up to run at that camber angle.....???

It's the same thing... obviously if the wheel / tyre is sitting at a angle then it isn't fit for purpose and will wear my tyres out...

On another angle... if i fit brand new rear brake pads.. then after a 2 years the rear brake pad is worn down to metal..now i go and complain and have a new set fitted for free... then guess what 2 years later they are gone again and this time the disk is worn too... Should i get it done for free???? AFTER ALL IT's MY REAR CALIPER THAT IS STICKING CAUSING IT TO WEAR !!!! perhaps i should see if Tarrox make pads that are "Ft for purpose" and will never wear out if theres a problem... hell i could even be leaving the handbrake on... :roll:

TOO MANY UNKNOWNS !!!! AGAIN !!!!


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## bigsyd (Jul 9, 2008)

that was a long post tony to say... TOO MANY UNKNOWNS  but tony would you be happy spending close to 2k and having oem. i fully sympathise with Les and he has not once i don't think in any post he has done on this subject pointed a finger, all the finger pointing has come from other people....for a change Les has kept his gob shut    :wink: 
as you said it needs to be sorted out with Les/awesome as awesome are the suppler


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## Matt B (Apr 8, 2007)

tony_rigby_uk said:


> There has been comments of people paying x amount for clutches asking how much awesome have charged les, If awesome had been over that figure everyone would have jumped up and down, the fact they were 200 lower gets hidden away and no mention of it as the start of a gesture.


So that was my question Tony, and it was not being devisive, I was merely trying to gauge the level of discount received by Les. 
I didnt follow up for 2 reasons, firstly because I have been really busy with my car trying to get it up and running, and secondly because I personally dont think that was much of a discount under the circumstances, for once I was actually keeping my gob shut.


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## Danny1 (Sep 2, 2010)

Number 1 atm it doesnt seem like Awesome have done anything wrong.
Number 2 its not £2k out of pocket, Les has the new clutch fitted so you cant include that cost, so its the £1200~ that the helix cost.
Number 3 the helix lasted 2 years... so i dont see how you expect 2 years of motoring to cost him nothing?
Number 4 Awesome have already given him £200 discount on the new one

I really am not trying to take sides, but these facts seem to be constantly missed in this thread, all people are saying is £2k lost its not good enough........


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## bigsyd (Jul 9, 2008)

> Les has the new clutch fitted so you cant include that cost


 why not :? he paid awesome for that


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## tony_rigby_uk (Nov 27, 2008)

To be honest matt i couldn't remember who said it... but if it was you i do apologies i didn't mean to single out...

To be honest i think it's a perfectly good discount if the problem is a sticking inputshaft on the gearbox..... Fact is your not going to know UNTIL it fails.. if in a few months les is here with a failed gearbox (matt rodinson has just had a new one) then perhaps we'll be thinking how lucky les was in getting a clutch at discont when both awesome and Helix did nothing wrong and it was the startings of a failing of another element on the car....

But nobody is gonna knowthe answer until they strip les's clutch out in 2years to see how much wear it's had, or worst still the gearbox or the underlying cause fails completely....

P.S i doubt anyone will be willing to fully strip a gearbox down at great expense but the fact of the matter is.... If helix say the clutch is good (taking that with a pintch of salt) awesome's fitting was obviously good... otherwise you'd know instantly.. then either helix are lying... (soon to be found out independantly) something up with the car... or les has been trying those youtube vids out.....

PP.S SoenTT's Helix clutch is still going strong and that was fitted around the same time... Hense me more so inclined to say it's the car or driver..... Given the FACTS (assuming the engineer report to say the clutch didn't suffer a failing is a FACT, and at this time it is)

NOW PROVE TO ME THERE ISN'T A UNDERLYING PROBLEM WITH THE CAR... AND THE EXCESSIVE WEAR IS LES DRIVING IT FOR A MONTH WITH TH CLUTCH SLIPPING HIDING SOMETHING THAT FAILED... it must have had plenty of meat left on it when it started slipping as i was down to the rivvets and scoring the flywheel Very quickly on mine.. so a month of slipping and the flywheel hasn't scored.. then i reckon it was pretty helthy before it started slipping, and the slipping is what caused the excessive wear to the clutch plate.... Guess we'll see in 2years or less... :roll:


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## tony_rigby_uk (Nov 27, 2008)

Danny1 said:


> Number 1 atm it doesnt seem like Awesome have done anything wrong.
> Number 2 its not £2k out of pocket, Les has the new clutch fitted so you cant include that cost, so its the £1200~ that the helix cost.
> Number 3 the helix lasted 2 years... so i dont see how you expect 2 years of motoring to cost him nothing?
> Number 4 Awesome have already given him £200 discount on the new one
> ...


Just to play devils advocate... Les has MONSTER Brakes, perhaps all the force from the master is used during the brakes so when his clutch pedal is pressed during slowing down it isn't having enough force to fully disengage the clutch which has a stiffer Pressure plate due to being uprated.. Therefore wearing it to fit the pressure the car can achieve... meaning you need a bigger Master slave...or a newer one because your brakes have taken the remaining life out of it after 128'000miles...

Perhaps now he has a standard clutch the master may just about take it... due to the weaker force required... [smiley=book2.gif]


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## Danny1 (Sep 2, 2010)

bigsyd said:


> > Les has the new clutch fitted so you cant include that cost
> 
> 
> why not :? he paid awesome for that


err, because he asked for it, and its in his car being used, when he went in there in the first place he needed a clutch, so this is the one hes ended up with (not his 1st choice ofc), so he was always gonna spend that money. At the moment the only part that is a problem for him is the helix one, hence £1200 not 2k.


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## les (Jul 24, 2006)

Danny1 said:


> bigsyd said:
> 
> 
> > > Les has the new clutch fitted so you cant include that cost
> ...


CORRECT. I ended up with an OEM clutch due to the reasons I already stated in another post. I could hardly drive the car away and nor could I aford around £1000 (thats with a discount if offered on another uprated clutch) In fact I couldn't afford the £600 right now hence bank of mum came into play. However I have had a chat with Mark today at Awesome and I am arranging to meet him sometime on Monday for that chat. I have taken all the positive post on board along with all the suggestions for which I thank you all. Perhaps we can come to some sort of agreement then again perhaps not. I do have an idea following all the advice I have received both on here and with others who are in a good position to know what is reasonable in this case. We will just have to see how that meeting goes.


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## robokn (Feb 21, 2006)

Les I really do hope this all pans out well for you


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## Awesomemark (Feb 16, 2006)

and regarding the offer mark, whats the point....i know your view as i was told it in confidence so what has changed from now to when the problem arose that will make any difference[/quote]

Thats just the point Syd you are certainly not aware of my view, I have learnt of the whole situation only recently, so nobody could have told you my personal view, I was certainly not aware of the whole episode and only knew of the beginning stage..

Pop in and see me i do feel it will be worth the ten minutes for you.... i will send you my personal mobile number please give me a quick ring or just pop in during the week if possible.

Hope to see you soon

Regards Mark


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## bigsyd (Jul 9, 2008)

Mark I do apologies if I am thinking of the wrong person and sorry for the post and retract what I said


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## Guzi (Jun 13, 2010)

Or what a nightmare Les, feel for you, i really hope you a get a good outcome from this.


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## Stefan Sobell (Sep 12, 2009)

Those of us in business should be aware of the PR aspect of a dispute like this. Unless Awesome know something we don't, Les has a problem through no fault of his own. Awesome say they weren't at fault, and this could well be correct.

But with no obvious fault on either side, Les has been left to take most of the hit.

Awesome should be aware there's a goodwill aspect to this problem. While there's no proof Awesome were at fault, in their position I'd have done more to keep Les happy. I've occasionally done work I was pretty sure I wasn't responsible for simply for goodwill and my reputation. Word gets around.


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## Awesomemark (Feb 16, 2006)

Stefan Sobell said:


> Those of us in business should be aware of the PR aspect of a dispute like this. Unless Awesome know something we don't, Les has a problem through no fault of his own. Awesome say they weren't at fault, and this could well be correct.
> 
> But with no obvious fault on either side, Les has been left to take most of the hit.
> 
> Awesome should be aware there's a goodwill aspect to this problem. While there's no proof Awesome were at fault, in their position I'd have done more to keep Les happy. I've occasionally done work I was pretty sure I wasn't responsible for simply for goodwill and my reputation. Word gets around.


Stefan

It's easy to look at things from an outside perspective, you jump on this thread now with your comments yet everybody else can read that Les and myself have already arranged a meeting to discuss the situation between ourselves, after being in business for 23 years we are well aware of reputation but thanks for your information. I have personally come on to this thread to show that awesome takes these things seriously and I am now trying to resolve two very good customers issues that I have only just got involved with, I am here to help and resolve this issue and have had a phone call with Les late evening yesterday.

I am doing my best not to start getting annoyed because some people seem to forget about all the good that Awesome has done and still does to look after it's customers, yes we don't get it right all of the time, but surely if you bread my last few posts on here you can see that when we don't we are at least willing to talk to try and get things resolved.

My decision will be final and after that if Les is still not happy then it will be down to Les to take the issue further if he wishes too.

I understand those of you that support Les and I also appreciate that as we too have a lot of time for Les, you mention a goodwill aspect to this situation but this is for me to sort and will not be pressured by members as what should or will be done,but as i said we are about to meet to talk.

Can I or Awesome be any fairer than that, I apologize if I come across a little tad annoyed

Regards Mark Ash


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## skiwhiz (Feb 17, 2008)

having read most of the posts and throwing in my advice it would be:
Mark D is correct in all he says about consumer rights and the obligations of the seller, I would suggest you ring for some advice from trading standards so you understand your rights and options and be clear with what you want as an outcome to resolve this with the seller. It may help if you have 2 options in mind, best case and the minimum you are prepared to accept, knowing your option is small claims court and a fixed fee and a chance the outcome will be based on the judge and what he sees as reasonable in this case.
either way its in both parties interests to resolve this so that it does not go to court.

good luck and hope Monday brings a clonclusion to your pain.


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## bigsyd (Jul 9, 2008)

I think this should now be put to bed until les and awesome have had a meet and discussed between themselves , all that is happening now is trawling over old ground by people who do not have the full story ( yes I do) 
There is nothing more that can be added or said so let's see the result after the meet


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## robokn (Feb 21, 2006)

Totally agree Syd, let them meet and go from there I am pretty sure Awesome won't shirk their obligations and I am sure Les knows what he would like, Both parties could come out smelling of roses..........hopefully


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## Hoggy (May 8, 2002)

Hi, I don't believe anything else can be gained from this thread, only lost, so I will lock this post. I'm sure Les & Awesome will let us know the outcome.
Hoggy.


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## les (Jul 24, 2006)

Following the meeting as arranged yesterday and after a long discussion between myself, Mark and John I am very pleased to say we arrived at a mutually satisfactory conclusion to the issue of my Helix clutch which is to the benefit of both parties. No more will be said on the issue and I thank both Mark, John and indeed Jim the owner of Awesome for their kind and very reasonable offer. 
Thank you also to all those who offered positive advice on here and by PM. I now consider the matter closed.

Les.


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