# Running E85 fuel?



## Beunhaas (May 14, 2014)

Hi guys,

Upped the fuel from 98 to 102 Octane afther the remap but thinkin about E85. It's cheap and takes lots of timing before knock occurs.

Anyone experience with E85?

What about rubber hoses or aluminum parts degrading over time?

Thanks


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## Gonzalo1495 (Oct 13, 2014)

Seems like there's very little knowledge here in regards to E85. At least that has been my observation. I would recommend you hear what Max has to say (no doubt he'll post on this :wink: ) and also take a long [smiley=book2.gif] session over on the vortex forums.


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## Hoggy (May 8, 2002)

Hi, If E85 is the fuel than contains more Ethanol, it degrades brass components which are not used very much in modern vehicles, so not really a problem, but it does absorb/create moisture in the fuel.
I would imagine the octane content is less as well, so less power.
I'd stick with 98+ fuel.
Hoggy.


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## gvij (Jan 27, 2011)

That's all they sell in southern Ireland afaik so Ive been running it for 4 years with no ill effects other than 5% more fuel use.


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## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

gvij said:


> That's all they sell in southern Ireland afaik so Ive been running it for 4 years with no ill effects other than 5% more fuel use.


Ahh heh no, in Southern Ireland ..its E5- E8.. you can get E15 at applegreen stations(that may have a higher octane rating cos of the extra booze 98+? but still gonna be down a lil on mpg).. thats as far as Id want to go on ethanol.
The fuel is all 95 octane rating even with the 5-8% of ethanol.
There was talk awhile back of mandatory 15% ethanol in all petrol/gasoline in Ireland cos Germany wanted it for the EU and we're allways kissy kissy to Germany.
However when Germany itself tried to introduce it all the bmer merc audi drivers boycotted the ethanol stations so it quietly got verbotten about.

Theres a lot of misinformation allover on it, E85 that is or E5, E10

The energy it produces is around 33% less than pure gasoline and 30% less than E10.
Less energy so less heat is good ,maybe its like a form of water injection.With a turbo of course you can artificially alter the cr ,well no that isnt true since the cr is constant.
I mean you can compress the the air more before the real compression ratio is applied.
Unless you alter the engine/ancilliaries physically, get it tuned to run on E85/ arent worried about fuel consumption ( remember petrol is dirt cheap in the US, comparatively) it doesnt look so good to me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85


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## Madmax199 (Jun 14, 2015)

Hoggy said:


> Hi, If E85 is the fuel than contains more Ethanol, it degrades brass components which are not used very much in modern vehicles, so not really a problem, but it does absorb/create moisture in the fuel.
> I would imagine the octane content is less as well, so less power.
> I'd stick with 98+ fuel.
> Hoggy.


Some things worth addressing:

1) any car produced after 1996 (OBDII) is ethanol compatible. It does not matter if it's 10% concentration or 85 % concentration, all seals, rubbers, metal fuel lines, bearings surfaces, etc. have been design to operate with some ethanol content.

2) The true octane rating of E85 is about 110 octane USA AKI rating (R+M)/2. This would give it a Research Octane Number (RON) equivalent of roughly 130 RON. So way higher knock threshold, superior cooling properties, much more oxygenated fuel, and more exhaust byproducts (improved ability to spool a turbo), cleaner burning, etc compared to convetional pump gas. There is not even a comparison when it comes to power, and power potential -- the closest thing comparable to E85 is C16 race fuel, in even there E85 is a clear winner in terms of power.

Below I am quoting a post in a thread I made on vortex about tuning a TT for E85. Lots of factual info there to read:

*

The board has been asking lot of questions about E85 lately and since I seem to be the only one running an MK1 TT on corn juice, I decided to make a comprehensive thread that will cover what is really involve in the conversion.

There are a couple of other threads on the 1.8t technical forum that are great starting points and cover the basics. The second one I posted below, does a great job at going through the hardware install and giving basic settings to get the car runnning. I am mostly going to take it from where he left off, tuning wise, and go into the specifics.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...albro-Inline-18-Gurus-Come-all.&highlight=e85

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...-run-on-E85-FlexFuel-ethanol-(in-4-easy-steps)

Before we even go anywhere, I feel that a little break down of E85 is in order.

E85, on paper, is 85% ethanol (mostly corn based in the US but could be made out of other things like sugar cane, algae or switchgrass) and 15% gasoline. In reality, most pump only supply about 83% ethanol in their summer blends and about 75% in winter blends but it will vary from pump to pump.

The question many may have is why E85?
In my view it's a great alternative to race fuel at regular gas price, if you are looking for a performance boost. You can easily exceed the agressiveness of a tune pass what 116 octane race fuel would allow, safely on E85. It's also a commitment because it's not readily available at every station. I'd advise that you check availability in your area before you decide to attempt converting your car to E85. Can it be a real alternative and support all US demands? At this point, I don't think so but that could change in future and I want to leave the politics involved, out of the thread.

- Why does E85 make more power?
Part of the reason it makes good power is because it's highly oxygenated. That means you can use a lot more fuel which means more power. Remember gasoline's lambda is 14.7 afr, while E85 is ~9.8. That's 1.5 times the fuel.

1.5 more fuel will make more energy even though unit per unit ethanol has lower energy content than regular gasoline.

Gas is 114,000 BTU/gal
E85 is 81,800 BTU/gal

However you burn them at a different stoichiometric mixture
Gas = 114,000/14.7=7755 BTU
E85 = 81,800/9.8=8436 BTU

- We also want several other things out of fuel - fast burn and detonation resistance being the most important ones. High oxygenation and cooling are also some other very good qualities. 
All those properties in a fuel help it make power, and E85 exceeds gasoline in all of those.E85 combusts at a lower temp, and also draws more heat from the intake manifolds due to its higher L H o Vaporization. These effects cause most engines to run at 10-15degF lower temperature (at coolant) when using E85. I have also recorded lower EGT in an average of at least 200 degrees or more.

- E85 can also tolerate much higher compression ratios and cylinder pressures safely without the fear of detonation. That means more boost, more timing (up to the limit of timing advance possible before torque loss is recorded also known as MBT).

- Another advantage to E85 is that is has more exhaust byproducts, mainly because of the higher volume flowing. More exhaust means more energy to spin the turbo blades and that results in faster, stronger spools (about 300rpm earlier than regular gas).

Edit with the chemistry that shows how and why E85 produces more exhaust byproducts [/u]

"Combustion of ethanol and gasoline (octane) to determine how much more exhaust gas we are getting when running E85 as opposed to gasoline.

ethanol:
1 CH3CH2OH + 3 O2 ----> 2 CO2 + 3 H2O

gasoline (octane):
2 C8H18 + 25 O2 ----> 16 CO2 + 18 H2O

So, if we standardized to the same unit airflow (O2), we get:

ethanol:
1/3 CH3CH2OH + O2 ----> 2/3 CO2 + H2O

gasoline:
2/25 C8H18 + O2 ----> 16/25 CO2 + 18/25 H2O

So, for the same amount of mass airflow, we get roughly 4% more CO2 and 39% more water vapor in our exhaust. That helps explain why E85 helps spool our turbos sooner, burn cooler, but it also points the fact that exhaust restrictions will come into play sooner"

Drawbacks:
Do not tell any regulatory (DMV) or police agencies that you are running E85 since it is technically not legal to do so per the EPA. Even though E85 does spew out fewer emissions, the EPA has not certified E85 conversion for a TT.
The rubber corrosion is a myth!! All cars after 1998 were mandated to be able to handle Ethanol in their rubber lines and I'm tired of hearing this crap.

You need to check and change your oil more often as running higher boost may likely cause some oil usage.

Cold start is the biggest issue I had with the fuel as the high alcohol content gives it a much lower flash point that conventional gas. In temperature lower than 35 degrees, starting need help but more on that later. Normally stations in cold area are suppose to take care of that by switching to winter blends with higher gas content but it's not really enforced.

As I understand it, ethanol mix is not regulated. The ethanol industry has established its own self-regulatory guidelines.

Class 1 - Ethanol content min. 79% 
Class 2 - Ethanol content min. 74% 
Class 3 - Ethanol content min. 70%

Class 1 - Gasoline content min. 17%
Class 2 - Gasoline content min. 17%
Class 3 - Gasoline content min. 17%

Combining the above minimums creates the following range for ethanol content:

Class 1 - Ethanol content min. 79% - max. 83%
Class 2 - Ethanol content min. 74% - max. 83%
Class 3 - Ethanol content min. 70% - max. 83%

As you can see, these are pretty broad ranges. Buyers beware!

Some stations do their mix with 85 octane and other use 87 but the gas portion is so small that it doesn't matter if they started with 85 or 87.

Blend w/ 85 octane
(113 x .85) + (85 x .15) = 108.8 octane

Blend w/ 87 octane
(113 x .85) + (87 x .15) = 109.1 octane

Now just in case lower octane is blended, here is what I came up with for summer blends

93 octane 109.6
91 octane 109.2
87 octane 108.58
85 octane 108.24
80 octane 107.39

Now that we have established what e85 is, let's move to fun stuff.
Hardware wise, you need to almost double your fuel flow capability to satisfy the demand of an E85 running engine. You need a pump that can flow 300+ gal/hour and bigger injectors (how big is going to depend on your boost level and turbo size). You can also, like most do, run a second external pump in series with the stocker (that's what I have for my stock turbo car but I wouldn't feel comfortable with it on a BT). 
Same with the injectors, a stock K04 will need around 630cc to have enough headroom for big boost and acceptable duty cycles (80% or less at full load).

The next thing needed is software changes to make it all work.
As far as I know there isn't a dedicated E85 flash available so you need to get your hands dirty and use those adaptation channels to set everything up.

I am going to base my conversion notes on a TT running the stock turbo, since BT applications are the minority.

I am not going to go into the details of installing the hardware (pump, injectors and a real time wideband gauge/controller) because it's pretty straightforward and should be handled by a shop if you're not sure how to do it. I am not including an adjustable fuel pressure regulator in my recommended list of hardware, for the simple reason that some of you may want to cut corners and raise the fuel pressure way high, as a substitute for running the right size injectors. In my book, that's a recipe for disaster because you risk running too high on your injector duty cycles and run lean. The second issue is that you also risk exceeding the rail pressure capability (around 90psi for the stock fuel rail), if you increase the fuel pressure to say 4.5 bar (65.26 psi) your are left with only 24.74 psi for boost before that rail goes static ( another condition that would make you run lean up top).

Hardware and software needed on a stock K0x to run E85

1) 630cc injectors
2) External inline high flow fuel pump, running in series with the OEM pump
3) A wideband gauge
4) VCDS software and cable bundle for your logging
5) Unisetting, lemmiwinks or maestro7 or equivalent

Once you have all your hardware installed and tested we can finally move to what everyone's waiting for, some in-depth tuning
*


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## Gonzalo1495 (Oct 13, 2014)

Hoggy said:


> I would imagine the octane content is less as well, so less power.
> I'd stick with 98+ fuel.
> Hoggy.


......... wow [smiley=freak.gif]


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## Madmax199 (Jun 14, 2015)

Beunhaas said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Upped the fuel from 98 to 102 Octane afther the remap but thinkin about E85. It's cheap and takes lots of timing before knock occurs.
> 
> ...


There is nothing to degrade and zero long term concerns with E85. I have been running strictly on E85 on my TT since 2010, E85 is simply liquid gold for modern forced induction engines. It allows you to do things that would never be possible on standard pump gas. I don't know about Europe, but it is also much cheaper than premium grade petrol in the USA, so whatever extra consumption is cancelled by the lower price per gallon.

My experience is:
- You can't get it to knock even if you were trying to. I can advance timing past MBT, and it still would not detonate. 
- Terminal EGT is lower by about 150 deg C lower than what's possible on pump gas
- It has such good cleaning and cooling properties that high boost concerns and carbon deposit is a thing of the past
- It lowers emission a considerable level with all else equal
- If optimized and tuned for, you will not be able to wipe the grin off your face
- It can be hard to start when cold if not properly tuned for (4-5 cranks to fire in winter).


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## Madmax199 (Jun 14, 2015)

Another good post I made on vortex worth quoting. It was about a scientifically conducted study at MIT about the differences between E85 and normal pump gas. I strongly suggest reading it if anyone is interested in educating themselves about the properties and potential of fuel blend:

"This is a study I stumbled upon that was conducted at MIT in 2010 by a student for partial fulfillment of his ME degree. It compares and contrasts some major effect of E85 VS pump gas on a 4 cyl turbocharged engine (happens to be a motor running a twin scroll BW K04 turbo variant which made it even more relatable). The only difference would be that the motor tested was directly-injected, but the findings are usable to our port-injected 1.8t motor.

http://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/59952/676953430.pdf

It's a very interesting read that sheds some light on some of the stuff that are usually discussed and argued online -- however, this time there is reliability in the facts with some verifiable data to back it up.

We've all heard (and some of us experienced) the attributes of a high ethanol content in our cars, but it's refreshing (to me at least) to be able to quantify the various effects. For example, some things I already knew, but other things I also had misconceived ideas that turn out to be different from what it is.

For instance, my only formal knowledge on combustion dynamics was done on various tests conducted on a NA production engine running pump gas. What was gathered from the instruction was that on pump gas, the small variance in the MBT curve (based on changes in charge temp, spark timing, coolant temp, etc), was negligible and MBT was more of a fixed function of the combustion chamber design. This proved to be totally wrong since MBT on E85 was shown in this study to be dependent from changes in these variables. The E85 blend is much more stable and resistant to knock, allowing variations in temperature and pressure to be measured knock-free in a wider range to actually notice variation of substance, and revealing an ACTIVE MBT curve. In practice, this was something that I actually noticed, but I theorized the change to be coming from my motor aging a bit. My torque-tuned timing curve from 3-4 years ago when I ran Water injection and E85 in tandem, was a tad higher than what it is now with just E85 (both curves optimized by monitoring TQ in steady state on a load-bearing dyno). It really is amazing what fuel can do to engine dynamics.

I know it 60+ pages, and some won't take the time to go through it, so here are some cliff-note conclusions from the study (totally worth the read though):

*" E85 can operate at the same load as gasoline with an increase of air temperature of almost 50* C"

"Gasoline at 30* C lies on nearly the same normalized peak pressure curve as E85 at 120* C"

"Sensitivity to spark timing is diminished with E85"

"Peak pressure sensitivity to spark timing is about 50% lower"

"E85 could withstand 130* C (265*F) IAT and 30* timing before any knock was present (during load)"

"E85 combustion phasing is about 25% less sensitive to spark timing than gas" (e85 burns faster)

"Burn duration for Gasoline is 1-2% longer than for E85 at the same spark timing"

*
^^ This one is an interesting one. It means that if gasoline knock threshold can be increased significantly (say a direct port water injection) to match E85's knock threshold at the same air charge temperature, gasoline has a clear advantage in terms of burn characteristics.

I've been preaching this for a long time, a real efficient water injection system on pump gas can reach and pass MBT before knocking and make as much (if not more power) than a car strictly running on E85. The 1.8t community seems to just be starting to really take advantage of water injection these days, with a few people getting into direct ports and elaborate system with tunes to match the knock-threshold advantages.

*"E85 achieves more volumetric combustion"*

^^ This always have been a known characteristic of E85. More volumetric combustion also equates to more exhaust byproducts, which in turns help spool a turbo faster/stronger. This is also what I see as an equalizer for power-potential of E85 vs pump gas+water injection.

PS: feel free to discuss and argue the content, besides sharing, sparking a discussion was my deliberate intent "


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## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

So essentially.. if you dont track,vary the hardware , retune and remap specifically for ethanol fuel,hi octane pure gasoline or E5-E10 is probably better?


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## Madmax199 (Jun 14, 2015)

3TT3 said:


> So essentially.. if you dont track,vary the hardware , retune and remap specifically for ethanol fuel,hi octane pure gasoline or E5-E10 is probably better?


Well, just to run E85 the fueling hardware needs to be uprated to flow more. If no performance software alterations were done, it would still be much better than E5 or E10 for the following reasons:

- cleaner burning (less emmissions, clean/spotless internal engine components)
- more exhaust byproducts which means more energy to spinning the turbine blade
- Cooler operation (less EGT)
- Higher knock threshold (no more ecu pulling timing due to pinging or heat)

Again, I am reiterating, this fuel blend is in a different league and can't honestly be compared to other blends with higher petrol concentration. It doesn't matter if you race, or drive like a grandma, it's just a superior form of energy for internal combustion engines on forced induced platforms (obviously due to abvove-atmospheric air compression). Read the MIT study I posted...


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## Gonzalo1495 (Oct 13, 2014)

3TT3 said:


> So essentially.. if you dont track,vary the hardware , retune and remap specifically for ethanol fuel,hi octane pure gasoline or E5-E10 is probably better?


Not really.
You don't need special hardware to run E85. Why you guys think it'll blow up your engine is beyond me. If anything for safe measure if you're going to run E85 maybe run an inline if your old pump is old or get a new in tank pump (and this would be due to the fact that if you're running E85 you're going to obviously run more power, timing, and boost which a faded OEM pump would not cope well with, as well as get upgraded injectors). But this goes without saying anyways considering if you're upgrading your fueling you should take care of the small basics anyways.

The only thing you need is a tune. It's not complex. Here in the states there are people who even switch tunes on the fly between pump and e85, such as when they run out they just get a bit of premium gas and switch over to the pump gas tune. Or maybe run pump gas to get to the drag strip 50 miles away and then empty the gas tank and use a jerry can full of e85 for the runs etc. The tune would be to take advantage of the fuel btw, it wouldn't necessarily be required.

Edit: Max beat me to it I see haha


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## CollecTTor (Jan 17, 2014)

I run it occasionally on my 225 with no additional fueling modifications other than running 630cc injectors and tweaking the software with Lemmiwinks. The power difference from timing advance is quite noticeable. Max has laid out all the info, it's liquid gold for turbo motors. For long distance commuting, you don't really see a benefit as you get less cruising MPG, but for performance, it can't be beat at the price. I only play with it occasionally because there isn't a station closer to me that sells it, or I'd run it all the time.


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## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

Mmm no I dont imagine itd blow up the engine .its less volatile.
I personally am not that interested in a "top fuel" type engine. I could run on "gas' but I dont have room for the tank 
If x amount of fuel 1 produces x bang energy and thats what the engine was designed for great.
If you need x+1 amount fuel 2 for the same energy and heat , fine if fuel 2 is x-1 cheaper.

The overlap between non turbo operation or almost no turbo on our comparatively high compression ratio for turboed engines.I can see that area as a big fuel consumption dropper on hi ethanol fuel.Say idle to 2200 rpm.

A remap solely say stage 1 which is what most of us on here use,if any at all.wheres the gain? I can see some overlap or normal road use at the top end of rpm /boost in keeping things cool.
Otherwise its on to stage 2+..shovel in plenty of "cool fuel" which by its nature (30%) less energy is gonna be cooler anyway..just need more of it cos it isnt as "explosive"
Personally.. I couldnt be bothered :lol:

Hey what about all those nasty acetaldehyde emissions on E85..no I dont know what they are


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## CollecTTor (Jan 17, 2014)

3TT3 said:


> If x amount of fuel 1 produces x bang energy and thats what the engine was designed for great.
> If you need x+1 amount fuel 2 for the same energy and heat , fine if fuel 2 is x-1 cheaper.


It's not that cut and dry. If it were just about costs, your car would be bone stock as that would be what it was designed for and the cheapest way to operate it.  The fact remains that the 1.8T tuning wise has pretty much always been timing limited from generic mapping and redundant ME7.5 tuning strategies that make it difficult to obtain ignition timing that will unleash the potential of the engine. I realized this long ago when dealing with testing big turbo software. A/F ratio is easy, hardware that flows is easy, getting timing to advance and make power isn't. E85 is one big step in getting there. If you chose not to sample the corn Kool-aid, that's fine. But looking at it only in terms of fuel costs, you'll never see the benefits. You seem to be stuck on the consumption and 30% more required of gasoline. That 30% more produces 30% more exhaust gas that spools the turbo sooner and more efficiently at cooler temps compared to gasoline. The neglect of ignition timing is why the concensus agrees that it's not possible to make 300awhp on the stock turbo.


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## Beunhaas (May 14, 2014)

Thanks, great info there guys!

As it is way cheaper and the liquid gold of fuels i think i will stock e85 now from Germany :lol: Also like the fact that spool can be inproved by the extra exhaust gasses.

Does the ecu correct for the fueling or does the map need to be altered in more places? Boost timing n75 etc

How much hp will 630cc injectors support on e85?

Heard something about e85 gives poor 'lubrication' in the cilinders what about that?

Do you guys think 430+ hp is possible on stock compression with e85?

Definitely going to study the material posted earlier bij madmax [smiley=book2.gif]


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## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

Beunhaas said:


> Thanks, great info there guys!
> 
> As it is way cheaper and the liquid gold of fuels i think i will stock e85 now from Germany :lol: Also like the fact that spool can be inproved by the extra exhaust gasses.
> 
> ...


I would ponder 1 question,"why not run E100 ?"


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## Madmax199 (Jun 14, 2015)

Beunhaas said:


> Thanks, great info there guys!
> 
> As it is way cheaper and the liquid gold of fuels i think i will stock e85 now from Germany :lol: Also like the fact that spool can be inproved by the extra exhaust gasses.
> 
> ...


Once the hardware is upgraded to provide the extra fuel required, the ECU can adapt within its preset margin of adaptation. Using secondary adaptation channels to tweak for the larger injectors and add timing advance is all it takes to make it work (a full remap is ideal however).

How much HP will 630's support is not a fix figure. It depends on many variables like the turbo size and the fuel pressure. At 3 bar my 630s are maxed out on a K04 hybrid. At 4.5 bar I am under 85% injector duty cycles which is acceptable. So it's not a black or white situation. If I was too sugggest injectors for E85 use and some decent airflow, I would say go for at least 1,000 cc/min or 1,200 cc/min. When you say "stock compression" the motors in our cars came with either 9.0:1 CR (225 trim) and 9.5:1 CR (180 and other lower trim), so more variables there also. If you're going for big power with lots of boost, the lower compression motors (225) are my favorite, they allow more boost and timing before detonating, but off boost grunt suffers due to the low compression. The higher CR 9.5:1 motors feel better off-boost and are nicer all around, if you're shooting for big power, the CR will put a lower ceiling on amount of boost and timing allowed.


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## Madmax199 (Jun 14, 2015)

3TT3 said:


> I would ponder 1 question,"why not run E100 ?"


Because the 15% of fuel is needed in cold climates to help with starting on a daily driver. Fuel vapor is what starts a car, and with the flash point of ethanol not allowing it start when it's below a certain temperature, the 15% of petrol is what starts and run the car until some heat is built in the combustion chamber.

My buddies with their race cars run E100 because they never need to start in cold temperatures. I feel that the performance gains after 70% of ethanol is not big enough to warrant the trouble. That's why I don't run it and seasonal pump E85 is more than enough for my use or 99% of the cars on the corn juice.


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## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

The Irish situation 
A lil more info ,for gvij too 

http://www.theaa.ie/blog/so-long-ethanol/

Funny points : Ireland shut down its sugar beet industry at the end of 2006 cos the EU reckoned there was a glut in europe,got EU cash to "ease the pain" also.
Then again the economics of fuel from sugar beet mean it costs almost as much "normal fuel" to make the biofuel.
The majority of ethanol adapted cars were renault..good ol renault (not available in the US).
Renault of course werent doing us a big favor , they have a huge market in Brazil where by law cars sold have to be ethanol capable (big sugar cane industry) and easier to get ethanol from sugar cane than beet.
Us may have a similar policy for the corn growers.

np whey! :lol: a byproduct of cheesemaking you can make ethanol from that .Even with the plethora of cheeses made here now,production would have to increase tenfold.More cows..plenty of methane..hey now theres an idea.

"Blessed are the cheesemakers"


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## Beunhaas (May 14, 2014)

Madmax199 said:


> Beunhaas said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks, great info there guys!
> ...


It's a 225 so it has the lower CR. Currently running the K04-064 TFSI turbo with 630cc injectors but thinking about a turbo change when i do rods going for a EFR6758 TFSI version hoping to make somethng north of 430. Heard on 102 it will be tricky getting this power from stock CR but maybe the E85 can?

http://www.turbozentrum.de/en/turbos-un ... d/a-32000/


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## Madmax199 (Jun 14, 2015)

Beunhaas said:


> It's a 225 so it has the lower CR. Currently running the K04-064 TFSI turbo with 630cc injectors but thinking about a turbo change when i do rods going for a EFR6758 TFSI version hoping to make somethng north of 430. Heard on 102 it will be tricky getting this power from stock CR but maybe the E85 can?
> 
> http://www.turbozentrum.de/en/turbos-un ... d/a-32000/


With the future plans you have, I'd suggest getting enough injectors to support your goals once you do the turbo upgrade. There is no point in buying injectors twice because 630 will not be enough for that turbo on E85. I suggeet getting at least a set of 1,200 cc/min injectors so you have room to grow. BTW, the compression is not the issue to making the power you're talking about, it's the knock threshold of the 102 and not having upgraded rods.


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## Matt B (Apr 8, 2007)

Gonzalo1495 said:


> Seems like there's very little knowledge here in regards to E85. At least that has been my observation. I would recommend you hear what Max has to say (no doubt he'll post on this :wink: ) and also take a long [smiley=book2.gif] session over on the vortex forums.


Mmmm, UK based forum, E85 not sold in UK.

Seems like there is very little knowledge here in regards to E85 - no shit sherlock. Maybe i will start asking you questions about Eastenders and Coronation street - :?


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## Gonzalo1495 (Oct 13, 2014)

Matt B said:


> Gonzalo1495 said:
> 
> 
> > Seems like there's very little knowledge here in regards to E85. At least that has been my observation. I would recommend you hear what Max has to say (no doubt he'll post on this :wink: ) and also take a long [smiley=book2.gif] session over on the vortex forums.
> ...


That was me being nice to the OP. Yes I could have said "E85 is hard to get in the UK you dumb f*ck" to the OP. But I'm not an asshole :roll: :wink: and prefer to be helpful as best I can on here rather than post dribble, like you so perfectly demonstrated.


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## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

Could be time for a link to the micky jackson vid.. we are the world 

Other than that : I have a diesel running 1800 bar direct injection with 5 pulses per ignition cycle.
Our engines are non direct gasoline/petrol setup.
I have neither the time or the inclination to modify a setup to run on 4-6 bar ,wider injectors to give a bigger squirt, which might just get splashed on the inlet walls before being drawn in and then have to import the fuel


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## Alec's TT (Dec 9, 2010)

I love it, been running it for a year now. Needed a few upgrades over just injectors and a walbro 255 under the hood though. At 30 psi i would lean out really bad even with an inline fuel pump and 1000cc injectors. I since switched to An IE surge tank with an 044 pump, 3/8 lines to and from an 034 motorsport fuel rail with a 6 -an fuelab FPR and i have loved every second of it. Also the exhaust smells so much nicer! Oh and i just set my injector size as 700cc in maestro and that was it for tuning wise.


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## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

:lol:


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## Gonzalo1495 (Oct 13, 2014)

Alec's TT said:


> I love it, been running it for a year now. Needed a few upgrades over just injectors and a walbro 255 under the hood though. At 30 psi i would lean out really bad even with an inline fuel pump and 1000cc injectors. I since switched to An IE surge tank with an 044 pump, 3/8 lines to and from an 034 motorsport fuel rail with a 6 -an fuelab FPR and i have loved every second of it. Also the exhaust smells so much nicer! Oh and i just set my injector size as 700cc in maestro and that was it for tuning wise.


Sounds like a great setup! Props for adjusting your tune yourself. 
Could I get your opinion on the 034 fuel rail? How much of an improvement is it to the OEM one? Just better flow no?


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## CollecTTor (Jan 17, 2014)

Gonzalo1495 said:


> Alec's TT said:
> 
> 
> > I love it, been running it for a year now. Needed a few upgrades over just injectors and a walbro 255 under the hood though. At 30 psi i would lean out really bad even with an inline fuel pump and 1000cc injectors. I since switched to An IE surge tank with an 044 pump, 3/8 lines to and from an 034 motorsport fuel rail with a 6 -an fuelab FPR and i have loved every second of it. Also the exhaust smells so much nicer! Oh and i just set my injector size as 700cc in maestro and that was it for tuning wise.
> ...


Gulfstream is on the OEM rail at his power level on E85. What else do you need to know? :wink:


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## Madmax199 (Jun 14, 2015)

CollecTTor said:


> Gonzalo1495 said:
> 
> 
> > Alec's TT said:
> ...


On top of that, nobody makes a SS high flow rail. They are all anodized aluminium which I have mixed feelings about (based on some bad previous experiences on the EVO with erosion when used with E85 and some water/methanol). People often brings the question of what needs to be upgraded for high ethanol use, IMO having the fuel sitting in an aluminium rail for extended periods can take a toll on it. I have heard arguments that properly processed hard-anodized rails fair very well, but I had anodized rails erode on me before, so I learned my lesson. Stock rails in most cars can support enough flow for more power than practically usable, so the small restriction that a rail could provide is a worthy compromise IMO for some peace of mind.


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## Gonzalo1495 (Oct 13, 2014)

CollecTTor said:


> Gonzalo1495 said:
> 
> 
> > Alec's TT said:
> ...


If the 034 motorsport one is a legit upgrade or just for show. Just out of sheer curiosity, I don't plan to run corn juice as the closest pump near me is like 40 miles out.


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## CollecTTor (Jan 17, 2014)

Gonzalo1495 said:


> If the 034 motorsport one is a legit upgrade or just for show. Just out of sheer curiosity, I don't plan to run corn juice as the closest pump near me is like 40 miles out.


I'm sure it "flows" more than stock, but obviously if you don't need that flow, then it's just for show. I have the ATP rail but that was more of a factor of installing a fuel cell and pump and lines vs needing the flow.


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## Matt B (Apr 8, 2007)

Gonzalo1495 said:


> Matt B said:
> 
> 
> > Gonzalo1495 said:
> ...


The op isn't in the uk - please keep up


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## CollecTTor (Jan 17, 2014)

Matt B said:


> The op isn't in the uk - please keep up


And he didn't ask where to get it, but rather who has experience with it, so why are you replying?


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## Gonzalo1495 (Oct 13, 2014)

Matt B said:


> Gonzalo1495 said:
> 
> 
> > Matt B said:
> ...


Bruh.... facepalm....
He is asking on a UK forum for opinions on E85. I simply let him know in a nice way that there may not be much knowledge or experience on the topic on here, much like you said in the first place.


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## Gonzalo1495 (Oct 13, 2014)

CollecTTor said:


> Gonzalo1495 said:
> 
> 
> > If the 034 motorsport one is a legit upgrade or just for show. Just out of sheer curiosity, I don't plan to run corn juice as the closest pump near me is like 40 miles out.
> ...


Gotcha, makes sense. Thanks for the clarity


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## Beunhaas (May 14, 2014)

Sorry guys, didn't know it isn't sold in the UK. Reason for asking here is because this is the most active/experienced TT forum. Also there are not that many high hp cars running on e85 here in Holland.


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## Beunhaas (May 14, 2014)

Hi Alec, do you have a thread of your build somewhere? Sig looks pretty interesting in combination with e85


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## Matt B (Apr 8, 2007)

CollecTTor said:


> Matt B said:
> 
> 
> > The op isn't in the uk - please keep up
> ...


Wtf? I am replying cos gonzo the muppet made this statement at the beginning of the thread about no one knowing anything about e85 - I simply explained why but gonzo decided to take it all personal.

Anyway I can reply to anything I like


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## CollecTTor (Jan 17, 2014)

Matt B said:


> CollecTTor said:
> 
> 
> > Matt B said:
> ...


Answered the question without answering the question. You have no experience with E85, but like to call out Gonz. No one said you can't post, but being that OP asked who has experience with it, again, I'm not sure why you're replying. But don't let me stop you from following and attempting to call out Gonz for no reason. We can all tell how good you are at it.


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## Matt B (Apr 8, 2007)

CollecTTor said:


> Answered the question without answering the question. You have no experience with E85, but like to call out Gonz. No one said you can't post, but being that OP asked who has experience with it, again, I'm not sure why you're replying. But don't let me stop you from following and attempting to call out Gonz for no reason. We can all tell how good you are at it.


I don't need to answer your question - I was responding to a post directed at me which is nothing to do with the original topic.
I can tell you think I am interested in arguing with you and your muppet buddy - I'm not - you register as less than nothing in my world. My comment was a lighthearted one about the incredulous nature of gonzo' s original statement - nothing more. I was making a joke - something which obviously passed you by. 
No time for this and I don't want to derail the thread about cars running on e85 !


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## Gonzalo1495 (Oct 13, 2014)




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## Alec's TT (Dec 9, 2010)

If the 034 motorsport one is a legit upgrade or just for show. Just out of sheer curiosity, I don't plan to run corn juice as the closest pump near me is like 40 miles out.

Legit, the stock fuel rail goes static around 90psi if i recall right, i run 30-35 psi on my daily tune. 35 boost psi plus 43 fuel press psi doesn't leave much room to up my fuel pressure when i get to that point.

And for a build thread, not really, i need to make one.


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## Madmax199 (Jun 14, 2015)

Alec's TT said:


> If the 034 motorsport one is a legit upgrade or just for show. Just out of sheer curiosity, I don't plan to run corn juice as the closest pump near me is like 40 miles out.
> 
> Legit, the stock fuel rail goes static around 90psi if i recall right, i run 30-35 psi on my daily tune. 35 boost psi plus 43 fuel press psi doesn't leave much room to up my fuel pressure *when i get to that point. *


That's the thing, when you get to that point, the proper thing to do is upgrade to larger injectors. :wink:


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## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

But the q on everyones mind is , are we talking about anhydrous or hydrated ethanol?

http://www.scielo.org.co/scielo.php?pid ... ci_arttext


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## Madmax199 (Jun 14, 2015)

3TT3 said:


> But the q on everyones mind is , are we talking about anhydrous or hydrated ethanol?
> 
> http://www.scielo.org.co/scielo.php?pid ... ci_arttext


I don't know about everyone's mind, but what has been hunting me is where you're looking to go with this.

The thread is started by someone looking for inputs on E85, not the politics, how much it costs to produce, how intriguing it is to people that have never tried it, etc. I think the topic at hand can be discussed without littering the thread with everything but what's is important to the subject. No? 

What is to be retained from the study is the following -- so from the results, I don't see why it is of any importance: :roll: 
*

"Conclusions

In this work the lubricity of representative ethanol (hydrated and anhydrous) / gasoline fuel blends was measured by using a conventional HFRR tester.

In general, the range of variation of the mean wear scar diameter was small among fuel tested in the range E-20 to E-85, which means that the addition of ethanol, anhydrous or hydrated, does not impact significantly blend lubricity. 

The lubricity of the anhydrous ethanol / gasoline blends appeared to undergo a significant decrease at low ethanol contents. The high MWSD of the E-5 anhydrous ethanol blend may be related to the high vapor pressure azeotrope formed at this ethanol concentration.

Results indicated that the addition of hydrated ethanol (96% v/v) slightly improved blend lubricity in comparison with the addition of anhydrous ethanol.

The higher MWSD, lower film traces and higher friction coefficients obtained for all tested fuels in comparison with the typical values for diesel fuels indicate the necessity of using lubricity additive when gasoline or ethanol / gasoline blends are used in new engine technologies requiring higher pressures in the fuel injection system." *


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