# Hybrid K04?????



## fransh (Dec 16, 2011)

Is there anyone out there that can give me some genuine help as to how much power I can achieve with a hybrid turbo on my MK1 225bhp TT?

I have had a stage 1 remap at BHP UK and have been bit by the "more power bug"

I am looking for about a 100bhp increase, is this feasable with a hybrid, injectors and downpipes?

Please no replies telling me to go down the big turbo route I just cant afford it.


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## Matt B (Apr 8, 2007)

fransh said:


> Is there anyone out there that can give me some genuine help as to how much power I can achieve with a hybrid turbo on my MK1 225bhp TT?
> 
> I have had a stage 1 remap at BHP UK and have been bit by the "more power bug"
> 
> ...


cant see you getting close to 325 bhp without at least a GT28


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## kazinak (Mar 23, 2010)

http://www.********.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=252967


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## jamman (May 6, 2002)

Got agree with MattyWatty but Joe (TTCOOL) is the man to speak to about hybrids he's just done it.


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## turbo87 (Aug 3, 2009)

jamman said:


> Got agree with MattyWatty but Joe (TTCOOL) is the man to speak to about hybrids he's just done it.


You got there before me! lol Was going to point him in Joes direction


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## TT SMITHY (Jan 18, 2011)

fransh said:


> Is there anyone out there that can give me some genuine help as to how much power I can achieve with a hybrid turbo on my MK1 225bhp TT?
> 
> I have had a stage 1 remap at BHP UK and have been bit by the "more power bug"
> 
> ...


This is something im seriously considering the biggest appeal to me was being able to build up the hardware over time as it can all be used when the hybrids bought but to be fair to get the most out of the hybrid you will probably be getting close to BT cost
as you will be needing uprated fuel pump, injectors ,hight flow manifold most hybrid threads iv read reach 300+bhp highest
iv seen was from an S3 hit 340bhp !  i dont think a hybrid pushed that hard would last as well as a garret what would do that comfortably no matter how you look at it a big hike in power isn't going to be cheap


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## TTsline02 (Dec 9, 2008)

Worth having a conversation with Morgan @ Vagcheck too - he went down the Hybrid route too only to end up spending what he would have done on a Garret BT if my memory serves me right, as said speak to Joe who's just gone through the process, Morgan and maybe Bill, Badger5


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## TT SMITHY (Jan 18, 2011)

besides the hybrid cost the most expensive part is one of these K04 Manifolds ! TSR K04 manifold Quality ! tried and tested


























there are much cheaper versions but this is not the sort of thing you want to replace twice as normally the cylinder head has to be removed to fit them


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## fransh (Dec 16, 2011)

Thanks for all the help guys.  
I've tried to PM Joe to see if he managed to dyno his cars to see what power he achieved, however as I'm new to the forum I can't PM yet. If you're reading this Joe let me know please, any info on price and power gains would be appreciated.7

Does anyone know if there are any hybrid packages available from a tuner who can supply, fit, map and dyno my car? I would rather go to one tuning shop rather than source parts from one, fit at another, map at another, dyno at another etc etc.


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## jamman (May 6, 2002)

fransh said:


> Thanks for all the help guys.
> I've tried to PM Joe to see if he managed to dyno his cars to see what power he achieved, however as I'm new to the forum I can't PM yet. If you're reading this Joe let me know please, any info on price and power gains would be appreciated.7
> 
> Does anyone know if there are any hybrid packages available from a tuner who can supply, fit, map and dyno my car? I would rather go to one tuning shop rather than source parts from one, fit at another, map at another, dyno at another etc etc.


What sort of budget have you got ?


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## fransh (Dec 16, 2011)

Hi Jamman,

My budget is about £2500 for engine mods, with about £1500 for handling and brakes.

Is this realistic or am I being ambitious?


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## kazinak (Mar 23, 2010)

he wants extra 100bhp, so budget should be around £4-5k i guess :roll:


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## YELLOW_TT (Feb 25, 2004)

fransh said:


> Hi Jamman,
> 
> My buget is about £2500 for engine mods, with about £1500 for handling and brakes.
> 
> Is this realistic or am I being ambitious?


Not sure on the engine but I think you are pushing it with £1500 for handling and brakes


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## fransh (Dec 16, 2011)

kazinak said:


> he wants extra 100bhp, so budget should be around £4-5k i guess :roll:


surely £4-5K would get me BT kit?


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## jamman (May 6, 2002)

fransh said:


> Hi Jamman,
> 
> My budget is about £2500 for engine mods, with about £1500 for handling and brakes.
> 
> Is this realistic or am I being ambitious?


Nothing wrong with wanting value for money.

Engine you will cover what you are looking at if you buy wisely.

Suspension/brakes your not going to do for that price not and be happy anyway start looking for 2nd hand big brake kits thats a good start then you will get closer to that figure


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## fransh (Dec 16, 2011)

YELLOW_TT said:


> fransh said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Jamman,
> ...


I meant £1500 for handling and £1500 for brakes.


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## jamman (May 6, 2002)

Of course you could just go for a very strong Stage 2 and save yourself the cost of the hybrid/manifold/injectors etc whilst not losing much BHP at the end of the day.

Once you start wanting to go over 290 it gets very expensive per bhp I know trust me and I don't know anyone who has done it cheaper not in the trade and it's still a lot.


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## YELLOW_TT (Feb 25, 2004)

fransh said:


> YELLOW_TT said:
> 
> 
> > fransh said:
> ...


That's more like it


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## kazinak (Mar 23, 2010)

fransh said:


> kazinak said:
> 
> 
> > he wants extra 100bhp, so budget should be around £4-5k i guess :roll:
> ...


bt will cost you £6.5-7k

http://www.backdraftmotorsport.com/...duct_details&product_id=83&fontstyle=f-larger

i was thinking about the eliminator kit ,it's quite cheap and you will get 300-320bhp

http://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=ATP-VVW-165&Category_Code=VVWTK


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## jamman (May 6, 2002)

£4-£5k will get you a 325/350 BT


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## fransh (Dec 16, 2011)

Thanks for the link Kazinak, the eliminator kit looks good, do you know if there is a UK stockist?


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## neilc (Aug 8, 2011)

jamman said:


> £4-£5k will get you a 325/350 BT


My total build has been around £10000 all in , but then I havent held back on the stuff I had fitted. And I'm still tinkering with it :lol: Another thing to bear in mind is that with more power you will need good quality tyres , anti roll bars , bushes etc etc and all this stuff costs good money.


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## fransh (Dec 16, 2011)

neilc said:


> jamman said:
> 
> 
> > £4-£5k will get you a 325/350 BT
> ...


Projects like this can easily get out of control, I've been there before with a 911, and i think I'm going to end up going there again!


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## neilc (Aug 8, 2011)

fransh said:


> neilc said:
> 
> 
> > jamman said:
> ...


I know how you feel  My original idea for my QS was just a bit more power, lower it and upgrade the brakes and then I saw the BT kits on the TTS website and I was sold. Next thing I knew I had spent £10000 :lol:


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## fransh (Dec 16, 2011)

I've been to the Autosport show this weekend and found that the company that did my remap can also supply & fit a hybrid and map my car to suit. Not committed yet but I'm going to see them later this week to find out more.


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## neilc (Aug 8, 2011)

fransh said:


> I've been to the Autosport show this weekend and found that the company that did my remap can also supply & fit a hybrid and map my car to suit. Not committed yet but I'm going to see them later this week to find out more.


What company is it ?


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## TTCool (Feb 7, 2005)

My story so far with update two:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=252967

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=254789&hilit=hybrid+k04 This is update one.

The final mapping is to take place on Tuesday the 24th January. I'm very happy with the immediate result, even before the final map takes place. Looking at the experience overall I've got what I wanted with the minimum of fuss and IMO I've avoided the probability of excessive big turbo costs. I also had to consider the fact that my TT has covered 100,000 miles over my 12 years ownership and has been driven hard on an initial AMD remap for the last 80,000 miles. In any event if you use the full potential of 300 bhp you will be doing very nicely on the road.

I don't believe the rolling road figures quoted which indicate that a first remap is just as good as that which can be achieved with the hybrid conversion. I believe I've kept within a sensible criteria with excellent results. The seat of my pants is more accurate than any rolling road :roll: :lol: 

Joe


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## ttsteve (Nov 1, 2007)

I looked into this when the K04 hybrid first came out and subsequently on a few occasions since. I came to the conclusion that you're never going to go much above 300 with a hybrid. And I've heard stories of how - despite them being beefed up, and what the manufacturers say - you are really pushing a beefed up K04 to get that sort of performance out of it and they're gonna be prone to failure or certainly a lack of longevity. So, I was going to go down the big turbo route, but took my time about making a decision, and I'm glad that I did because I'm quite happy with the c280 that I've got now. That is courtesy of Pipeworx 3" DP and sports cat, Miltek catback (other stuff see spec below) and Custom Code stage 2 remap. It's fast enough for me and I haven't spent 1000s on it just to get a bit more acceleration, that in truth , I don't need. A 280BHP TT is quite a fast car. So, all I would say is, upgrading a turbo is not for the faint hearted, lots of considerations, lots of peripheral upgrades, and of course lots of costs that will not be recovered.


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## TTCool (Feb 7, 2005)

ttsteve said:


> I looked into this when the K04 hybrid first came out and subsequently on a few occasions since. I came to the conclusion that you're never going to go much above 300 with a hybrid. And I've heard stories of how - despite them being beefed up, and what the manufacturers say - you are really pushing a beefed up K04 to get that sort of performance out of it and they're gonna be prone to failure or certainly a lack of longevity. So, I was going to go down the big turbo route, but took my time about making a decision, and I'm glad that I did because I'm quite happy with the c280 that I've got now. That is courtesy of Pipeworx 3" DP and sports cat, Miltek catback (other stuff see spec below) and Custom Code stage 2 remap. It's fast enough for me and I haven't spent 1000s on it just to get a bit more acceleration, that in truth , I don't need. A 280BHP TT is quite a fast car. So, all I would say is, upgrading a turbo is not for the faint hearted, lots of considerations, lots of peripheral upgrades, and of course lots of costs that will not be recovered.


Hi Steve

I appreciate your comments and realize that you are happy with your approach to getting more power but It's important to get all the facts right, especially with regard to my own circumstances and if you've read my threads you will have seen that my original exhaust manifold and turbo were goosed (hair cracks), so had to be replaced anyway. My OEM clutch was also goosed (slipping).The difference in price between the Hybrid turbo and OEM turbo (Audi prices) was not worth considering (I might not have mentioned prices in my threads).

Rolling roads tell lies in my experience but there's far more reason to believe a Hybrid will achieve the required bhp rather than an OEM turbo. A more aggressive remap was not my way of doing things and I didn't want more than 300 bhp but needed to be sure I was getting my bhp. My Hybrid will not be working as hard as an OEM K04 with supposed 280 bhp. Hybrids have progressed greatly to date and my particular Hybrid is not the usual generic offering and not regarded as simply beefed up (check this out in my earlier thread). In fact most, if not all of this is in my threads.

My TT has had no peripheral upgrades. Everything on my TT (engine wise) is standard; the whole of the exhaust is standard. The ZF Sachs competition clutch, rated at 520 Nm/383 lbs ft, was a personal preference over the OEM clutch and part of the reason for this was because the OEM clutch would not have taken the extra power and torque for any length of time, so even 280 bhp is not ideal for an OEM clutch. You might find you will need a clutch capable of taking more power in the long term. The OEM torque for a standard TT 225 is only 207 lbs ft and is coupled with a corresponding Audi clutch, so not meant for 280-300 bhp.

There is no doubt in my mind that if the parts are needed anyway, there is no contest. If the parts are not needed then I would still say go Hybrid (simple installation) rather than have the usual initial remap. If I was starting from scratch again I wouldn't bother with an initial remap and I'd go straight for the hybrid; if you don't want or need a big turbo. In either case it will cost more but that's not what it's about IMO. I doubt whether recovering costs is anywhere on the agenda; it's certainly not on mine. I'm enjoying my TT in the same way as Hi-Fi enthusiasts enjoy their passion and pay thousands for a Linn Hi-Fi system, cameras, TVs etc. Lastly, the lightweight single mass competition flywheel and clutch assembly helps performance greatly (not bhp) and deserves more credit than people realize&#8230;fact.

This reads like we have two contented TTF members here.

Kind regards

Joe


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## ttsteve (Nov 1, 2007)

TTCool said:


> ttsteve said:
> 
> 
> > I looked into this when the K04 hybrid first came out and subsequently on a few occasions since. I came to the conclusion that you're never going to go much above 300 with a hybrid. And I've heard stories of how - despite them being beefed up, and what the manufacturers say - you are really pushing a beefed up K04 to get that sort of performance out of it and they're gonna be prone to failure or certainly a lack of longevity. So, I was going to go down the big turbo route, but took my time about making a decision, and I'm glad that I did because I'm quite happy with the c280 that I've got now. That is courtesy of Pipeworx 3" DP and sports cat, Miltek catback (other stuff see spec below) and Custom Code stage 2 remap. It's fast enough for me and I haven't spent 1000s on it just to get a bit more acceleration, that in truth , I don't need. A 280BHP TT is quite a fast car. So, all I would say is, upgrading a turbo is not for the faint hearted, lots of considerations, lots of peripheral upgrades, and of course lots of costs that will not be recovered.
> ...


Joe, you've sent me a letter there! my comments and observations weren't aimed at you in any way shape or form, in fact I hadn't read anything you put down, I just saw the initial post and thought I'd put pen to paper! You don't have to explain your actions or thoughts to me mate. As I say, I'd just got the point where I though enough was enough power wise. Each to their own, I just wanted to share what I had been through. Oh, and I rarely use the power I have anyway (whatever it may be), mainly just for overtaking and occasionally when I get on an open road. It's my second car, I treat it like a lady, so I'm not worried about overstressing anything. And good news that there is a hybrid out there built to a better standard these days. Lotta logic and good sense in what you say. Cheers. Steve.


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## fransh (Dec 16, 2011)

neilc said:


> fransh said:
> 
> 
> > I've been to the Autosport show this weekend and found that the company that did my remap can also supply & fit a hybrid and map my car to suit. Not committed yet but I'm going to see them later this week to find out more.
> ...


It's BHP UK, dont think they're a big name in the TT world but the seem experienced and they have their own map writers and their own dyno so everything gets done unnder one roof. Will keep youo posted.


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## Diveratt (Aug 31, 2009)

Hi Fran, I put this together at the end of last year. The figures are all a bit ball park but its lists the mods required to put together the power upgrades for a 225 TT. Given you have only just gone stage 1 and your £2500 budget you will put together a strong stage 2 but not get near the cost of fitting a hybrid, some of the mods will carrry over like the FMIC, DV etc. so you could go that route at a later date when you have more cash.

3" DP & sports cat & exhaust will set you back near £1500 on its own, add to that £700 for the FMIC, £250 TIP & Filter, £100 for DV, £200 for silicon hoses. So you will bust your budget before you even get the Hybrid, manifold & injectors even with out any mapping costs.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=254275


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## fransh (Dec 16, 2011)

Hi Diveratt,

Really appreciate that, it's a good post.  
I've realised that my budget was very optimistic so it's out the window now. I'm definately going the hybrid route and will just have to take more money out of the bank!


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## Diveratt (Aug 31, 2009)

The problem is its not as simples as just fitting the hybrid you need the other bits to thelp the engine breath and get the best from the turbo. 
It will be good to know how you get on so keep us all posted


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## Adam-tt (Apr 3, 2010)

If you want hybrid power surely a gt28 eliminator kit would be best?


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## Mondo (Feb 20, 2009)

Agree. Costs are similar with the eliminator Vs. a BT (once you've done all the stuff you'll need anyway) but the advantage to me is not having to find £3K-ish in one go. You can get just the turbo, then do the DP, exhaust manifold, TIP and CP as time/funds permit.

Saying that, I doubt I can justify doing either... :?


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## Diveratt (Aug 31, 2009)

you can also add the cost of a new clutch & DM flywheel coz the chances are your old one is going to let go soon after if you dont replace it when you go hybrid or BT


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## fransh (Dec 16, 2011)

The lads at BHP UK have told me that I will need the hybrid, induction kit, 3" down pipe and decat or a 100cell cat, injectors, regulator & divertor valve and a remap to start and probably an uprated clutch, although people on here seem to recommend staying OEM on the clutch. Then I could add a cat back system at a later date.

They did say I should at least uprate the front discs and pads or preferably go for a big brake kit. And then a suspension upgrade!

I only bought the TT as a cheap run around, went in for a remap and it started all of this! However the map did absolutely transform the car, I only got about 30bhp gain at the top end but I got 70bhp gain at 3400rpm. hoping the hybrid gives me another transformation now!

Thanks for all the help guys


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## Diveratt (Aug 31, 2009)

fransh said:


> The lads at BHP UK have told me that I will need the hybrid, induction kit, 3" down pipe and decat or a 100cell cat, injectors, regulator & divertor valve and a remap to start and probably an uprated clutch, although people on here seem to recommend staying OEM on the clutch. Then I could add a cat back system at a later date.
> 
> They did say I should at least uprate the front discs and pads or preferably go for a big brake kit. And then a suspension upgrade!
> 
> ...


Hi Fran, Glad to see you are modding the hell out of your cheap run around 

That's pretty much in line with my findings on what's needed, I'm curious why they did not include an exhaust manifold as the OEM one causes a lot of restrictions and to get the best from a hybrid it could do with changing. I would probably add an FMIC and cat back exhaust to go with the DP and sports cat to get the best out of the turbo.

If you are careful with what you get most of the upgrades from stage 1 & stage 2 can be carried over to the Hybrid set up, or sold on if you went BT. 
On the clutch front OEM should handle the power & torque from a hybrid set up, I think the main issue is the most people will be doing this with a clutch that is already part or well worn so they don't last very long once you start playing with the extra power. 
There is some debate on flywheels as the OEM one is dual mass setup which is basicly 2 disks with springs between then to take out torsional shocks & vibrations between the engine & gearbox. To reduce costs, weight & complexity some people fit a single mass flywheel which is lighter along with an uprated clutch.

As far as gains go its the old law of diminishing returns, the initial gains you get from simple things like induction kits, Maps etc are quite large compared to the out lay. Working on the top end of my figures

A stage1 will give 35bhp at £17/bhp, Stage 2 = 65bhp @ £30/bhp, Hybrid = 95bhp @ £42/bhp or standard BT 150bhp at £32/bhp When you get in the realms of Frases rebuild the gains are 250bhp + but the cost is up around £75/bhp +

Going on bag for the buck a hybrid is not as cost effective as a basic BT and will give less gains. Keep us up to speed with the build and ball park costs and I will update my thread to help any one else thinking of going down the quest for more power.


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## fransh (Dec 16, 2011)

Well I finally bit the bullet and dropped my car of with BHP UK for the hybrid conversion.   

Will keep you posted.


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## Diveratt (Aug 31, 2009)

Good luck hope it works out


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## muxgt (Apr 12, 2010)

Anyone got one of these :lol:


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## L0z (Sep 8, 2011)

Surely if the OP is careful with his purchases then he can make his budget?

I don't think I have paid full price on any of my modifications!

L0z


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## L0z (Sep 8, 2011)

fransh said:


> Well I finally bit the bullet and dropped my car of with BHP UK for the hybrid conversion.
> 
> Will keep you posted.


Oh snap! Just saw this post!

Keep us updated matey!

L0z


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## fransh (Dec 16, 2011)

Hi Laurence,

Have you just gone down the hybrid route?

It would be good to compare notes, at the momemt I've opted for a hybrid, bigger injectors (470cc Bosch, can be upped with a bigger FPR), Forge divertor valve, 3 inch downpipe and decat,.. I will stick with the standard intercoolers for now but will probably go for a bigger intercooler if the data logging proves the IAT is getting too high. I'll probably also put a cat back system on soon.
I think the beauty of doing it this way is that I'll be able to evaluate every mod as I'll be dynoing the car after each mod. 
After talking to a few companies I decided to go with BHP UK as they have their own dyno & write their own maps, but most importantly took their time explaining what they were going to do. I'm not new to tuning (but am new to TTs) and have been involved in motorsport in the past, unlike many other companies they seemed to know their stuff and didn't seem out of their depth when explaining technicalities of turbo design and mapping, they also knocked off the price of the stage 1 map they put on my car a few months ago. 
But as they say the proof is in the pudding and the dyno plots & road tests will tell their own story.


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## E3 YOB (Mar 2, 2010)

Fran

Well done. You are thinking about this is the right way and being pragmatic about it. I am biased and would have gone the GT28 route. This is purely as you have done already; you upped the power with a map and then now want more power. You will without a doubt sooner-or-later want more power and the hybrid will be maxed already. With the disco biscuit you can run it at less boost and when you decide you want more power you can start with the FMIC and start to up-rate other bits and bobs as funds are to hand.

If you are into modding cars... Have you ever modded a car and then sat happy with the power that you have, or did you then wish for more?

BHP UK, I have never heard of them personally but they look a good operation. They have a nice setup and it will be great for everyone at the forum to know of another good engine builders/tuners in the UK as there are not loads of choices and many that are out there have bad reps. If you can get pictures up and write-ups of the work they are doing it would be great.

Welcome to the forum. K04 Hybrids seem to be a hot topic at the moment so you will have some avid watchers!

Cheers

Frase


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## fransh (Dec 16, 2011)

frakay100 said:


> Fran
> 
> If you are into modding cars... Have you ever modded a car and then sat happy with the power that you have, or did you then wish for more?
> 
> Frase


Hi Frase, You are absolutely right .

The answer to your question is a big fat NO!!


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## kazinak (Mar 23, 2010)

fransh said:


> Hi Laurence,
> 
> Have you just gone down the hybrid route?
> 
> ...


do you have the price for all work ?


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## fransh (Dec 16, 2011)

kazinak said:


> fransh said:
> 
> 
> > do you have the price for all work ?


I have an idea of what it will cost, but as with the nature of these projects, I may end up replacing a few parts while the work is being carried out. I suspect the coolant return pipe from the turbo may be leaking, so I'll get any bits like that done while the mods are being done. 
I'll let you know the exact cost when I get my debit card out.


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## fransh (Dec 16, 2011)

Dropped into BHP UK on the way back from work to see how the TT was coming on. Turbo, injectors, DV and downpipies had been fitted and initial dyno testing & map writing was underway. With a bit of luck I could have my car back by the weekend.   

gallery/image_page.php?album_id=734&image_id=1170


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## jamman (May 6, 2002)

Hope it all goes well mate look forward to the write up.

You can run Genesis 550 without uprating the FPR


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## T3RBO (Dec 9, 2003)

Seems to be moving along swiftly


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## Diveratt (Aug 31, 2009)

jamman said:


> Hope it all goes well mate look forward to the write up.
> 
> You can run Genesis 550 without uprating the FPR


Good idea if you don't need to less stress on the fuel system can't wait to get my Siemens 650cc injectors mapped


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## badger5 (Apr 19, 2003)

what spec hybrid is this?
what boost level is it being run at on the dyno you posted?
(which now seems to have dissapeared? 270bhp... on a hybrid k04 seems mild)
thanks


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## fransh (Dec 16, 2011)

The car has made 271bhp but this is measured at the wheels so equates to about 295bhp at the engine. But this is only half the story as it now makes 477nm of torque.

The gains are 68bhp at max output and 95bhp at 3500rpm.

The torque has gone up from 292nm to 477nm a gain of 185nm

I've driven the car over the weekend and will do a full write up soon.

Oh and the cost of the conversion was £2900 + VAT


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## Adam-tt (Apr 3, 2010)

That's not a bad price


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## kazinak (Mar 23, 2010)

Sent from my LT18i using Tapatalk


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## kazinak (Mar 23, 2010)

Im abit disappointed, was hoping to see 310-320bhp

Sent from my LT18i using Tapatalk


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## L33JSA (Jun 30, 2010)

kazinak said:


> Im abit disappointed, was hoping to see 310-320bhp
> 
> Sent from my LT18i using Tapatalk


I don't think his rods would be as disappointed....


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## fransh (Dec 16, 2011)

Come on guys don't be disapointed, I'm not, I'm getting 298bhp at the engine (271bhp is at the wheels)

I've posted a full write up at:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=261134


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## Diveratt (Aug 31, 2009)

Adam-tt said:


> That's not a bad price


But hardly worth the effort for 15 bhp over a good stage 2


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## fransh (Dec 16, 2011)

Diveratt said:


> Adam-tt said:
> 
> 
> > That's not a bad price
> ...


From the people that I have spoken to a good stage 2 promises 280bhp but never seams to deliver, especially considering that most companies that make these sort of promises don't seem to be able to offer before and after dyno runs or if they do they claim 20% transmission losses. The guys that did my conversion are only claiming a 10% transmission loss, if the would have claimed 20% then my car would be making 325bhp!
I think I got an honest conversion with honest figures not someone trying to hoodwink me.

Don't forget the price i paid and the fact that there is still a few more things I can do that will add quita a bit of power.


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## L0z (Sep 8, 2011)

fransh said:


> Diveratt said:
> 
> 
> > Adam-tt said:
> ...


Mate pm me some more details, seriously considering this for mine :twisted:


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## Adam-tt (Apr 3, 2010)

Diveratt said:


> Adam-tt said:
> 
> 
> > That's not a bad price
> ...


but he wasn't stage 2 to start with
A decent stage 2 setup can be around 2k+


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## L0z (Sep 8, 2011)

Adam-tt said:


> Diveratt said:
> 
> 
> > Adam-tt said:
> ...


I thought that as well lol.


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## Adam-tt (Apr 3, 2010)

I can understand what Diveratt means for me it would be pointless to go hybrid as I'm stage 2 and not far off that power already 
For the same sort of money I could have a gt28 eliminator kit fitted


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## L0z (Sep 8, 2011)

Adam-tt said:


> I can understand what Diveratt means for me it would be pointless to go hybrid as I'm stage 2 and not far off that power already
> For the same sort of money I could have a gt28 eliminator kit fitted


Totally agree mate.

But for those of us who are relatively low in the modification stakes, it makes sense to do it this way.

I'm going to ring them and see what sort of price it would be for my 180. I know it's going to be more because I believe I will need a new manifold for the Turbo? Also a better intercooler set up!

L0z


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## Mondo (Feb 20, 2009)

OK, time to show my ignorance. I thought a GT28 eliminator _was _a hybrid turbo? And by 'hybrid' I mean a drop-in replacement turbo, same external contact points as a standard K04 turbo but with 'more beans inside'. No? :?

This one: http://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchant.mv ... gory_Code=

'Cause that does appeal if for no other reason than not having to find around £3.5K in one go. New turbo, DP, TIP, CP and exhaust mani Vs. just a new (eliminator) turbo. Which is part of the reason I'm putting off buying a 3" TIP as that will commit me to either BT or K04/hybrid. :?


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## kazinak (Mar 23, 2010)

Diveratt said:


> Adam-tt said:
> 
> 
> > That's not a bad price
> ...


agree


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## L0z (Sep 8, 2011)

kazinak said:


> Diveratt said:
> 
> 
> > Adam-tt said:
> ...


Kaz.

Read. It Again.

The OP wasn't at stage 2 when he started this conversion.

If he was, then yes, it would be quite expensive.

Jesus H...

:roll:


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## AmpTThill (Sep 18, 2011)

Interesting route to stage 2 power... The only difference I can see between what you've achieved with a hybrid and a traditional stage 2 is the FMIC. Even though your route might be 500 quid or so more expensive, you've got more power if you add FMIC, manifold and rods. So is the extra 500 worth that flexibility?

In terms of value I think you need to ask, how far will a k04 hybrid go? From reading up, the restriction is the turbo exhaust flange, so gt28rs (eliminator) or k04 with updated internals - does it even make a difference?

If you want more power over stage 2, I think the BT route is the best with a decent garret with good flow. If that's the case then spending money on a hybrid k04 and injectors might be a waste. Where if you spend money on stage 2 with a FMIC, it can be reused on a BT conversion...


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## Diveratt (Aug 31, 2009)

L0z said:


> Kaz.
> 
> Read. It Again.
> 
> ...


The point is you need most of the stage two, good TIP & filter, free flowing exhaust and poss an FMIC to get the best out of a Hybrid. And putting a hybrid on and keeping the stock manifold is half a job. Hence only getting half the gains. Still you pays your money ......


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## fransh (Dec 16, 2011)

AmpTThill if you read original post, you'll find I didn't want to go the BT route.

As for stage 2 power comparisons, I have achieved 298bhp I think I've exceeded the stage 2 power by quite a bit.

If you really think a stage 2 will make 280bhp please please show me wheel horse power dyno plots.

Before starting the conversion I spoke to many tuners and only the guys without a dyno were claiming 280bhp for a stage 2. Awesome and other reputable tuners were quoting much more conservative figures as they knew that they may have to prove their claims with a dyno run.

Before going ahead with the conversion I insisted that I would be supplied with wheel horse power dyno plots, not plots showing flywheel power but relying on insane transmission loss figures.

I have achieved 271bhp at the wheels, from a standard 203bhp assuming a sensible transmission loss of 10% this equates to 223bhp as standard and 298bhp after conversion. All this for £2900+VAT a big turbo would give me upto 340bhp but cost me £6000+
At 3500rpm I have a gain of 93bhp, show me a stage 2 that gives you that. Also the torque at 477nm is far above what a stage 2 would give you.
If and when I want to spend another £1000 I could probably get another 10-15bhp, putting me only 25 bhp behind a big turbo.

There are many ways to modify a car and improve power. If big turbo is your chosen route then get your wallet out & enjoy.

I think I've got good returns for the money I've spent and there is room for a little more improvement. But most of all I'm enjoying my car


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## Adam-tt (Apr 3, 2010)

dont forget its down to the dyno too
on the rolling road day i got 207 at the wheels yet someone else with the same bhp at the engine got 179 at wheels


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## kazinak (Mar 23, 2010)

Adam-tt said:


> dont forget its down to the dyno too
> on the rolling road day i got 207 at the wheels yet someone else with the same bhp at the engine got 179 at wheels


 you can't blame the RR when on the same day , same cars got different numbers :roll:


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## Adam-tt (Apr 3, 2010)

kazinak said:


> Adam-tt said:
> 
> 
> > dont forget its down to the dyno too
> ...


kaz i wasnt blaiming the dyno :? i was saying they can make different figures
so you cant really say hes under 300bhp unless hes been on a dyno that other tt's have, looking at the dyno plot of this hybrid it holds the power very well


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## kazinak (Mar 23, 2010)

you are right, best thing it's to run two or three tt's ,then it will be clearer what power it makes


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## Diveratt (Aug 31, 2009)

Yay I feel a rolling road day coming up


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## jamman (May 6, 2002)

fransh said:


> All this for £2900+VAT a big turbo would give me upto 340bhp but cost me £6000+


Thinks theres a little artistic license being used for reference my BT was very close to your build cost of £3,480 (maybe less :wink: ) produced 371 on the rollers but let's say 350 for arguments sake.

Now my engine was replaced with new so was out the car which in turn cut down on labour but still
think it represents pretty good bang for buck :wink:

I think Kev (diverat) pretty much has it spot on although I think at the end of the day if a hybrid owner is happy doesn't really matter does it.


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## Danny1 (Sep 2, 2010)

Jamman £3500 for your BT build? what was inc in that? didnt Neilc say his was £7500 for the 350bhp BT?


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## L0z (Sep 8, 2011)

Danny1 said:


> Jamman £3500 for your BT build? what was inc in that? didnt Neilc say his was £7500 for the 350bhp BT?


TT Shop prices, a lot more labour charges I would imagine.

L0z


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## jamman (May 6, 2002)

Danny the engine was out of mine mate and Neil had a lot of other things done at the same time as I did that's just the rough breakdown give or take a little.

I noticed the kit has gone up lately to 4.5k I think but hey we all haggle don't we?

When I had mine done the website price was £3495 I think.

Website link is on first page of my build thread

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=241699&hilit=kamilla


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## L33JSA (Jun 30, 2010)

I'll be honest......Ithink he's done very well here and I can totally understand why he's done it too.

Factory standard look engine bay (I'd imagine) and exterior, good spool and responsive engine retaining OE drivability plus the fact that he's got a nice brand new turbo that wont be pushed to its absolute limits at 300bhp which means it should last - also because its not being pushed too far the charge temps will probably be very reasonable hence not needing to upgrade intercooler. Plus his injectors wont be in danger of being maxed out either.

Looking at it another way....lets see the normal route people tend to go down over a couple of years of owning their TT (I've used prices from the TT shop as a guide here)

Stage 1 Remap - £350

Exhaust - £549
Downpipe - £643
Filter - £100
FMIC - £693
TIP - £144
Stage 2 Remap - £350

Total - £2829 and this is a non fitted price for fitting would probably take it nearer to the £3500 mark for 280bhp if you're lucky.

You might get nearer to 300bhp with water meth with everything at its absolute limit so you can probably add another £500 quid or so onto that price.

So he's come along - given his car to a company for a few days, they've done all the work, returned his car to him with what sounds like a genuine 300bhp/350ft lb car and he's one happy camper....I dont blame him....I probably would be too!!

Fair play mate!!  Go and enjoy it & surprise some unsuspecting motorists lol


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## jamman (May 6, 2002)

Diveratt said:


> Yay I feel a rolling road day coming up


Ditto would like to check a hybrid out


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## fransh (Dec 16, 2011)

jamman said:


> £4-£5k will get you a 325/350 BT


This was your advice which I appreciate and used to make my decision as to which way to go.
After calling a few tuners they said £5 would be more realistic and by the time it was fitted and mapped it would probably look more like £6k. I spent about half of this amount

I think the hybrid conversion represents great value for money.


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## jamman (May 6, 2002)

Quite agree matey congrats

You will have to come along to the next RR and let everyone have a gander.


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## fransh (Dec 16, 2011)

It would be great to meet up with some of you guys and buy you a drink for all your help


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## CrAkHaBiTT (Jan 18, 2005)

> what spec hybrid is this?
> what boost level is it being run at on the dyno you posted?
> (which now seems to have dissapeared? 270bhp... on a hybrid k04 seems mild)
> thanks


I've been really interested in this post - as many others I'm not really up for going BT and being at a standard state of tune I've been looking at all the various routes people have gone down. I was also really interested in what TTcool has done but that all seems a bit secret! - so I'm waiting till more info comes out surrounding that 

I've never been in a mapped TT let alone in a BT - so am completely ignorant. - I say I'm not up for big turbo more due to cost rather than anything else. Theres just so much info out there now and it seems, especially recently with all the hybrid turbo talk, that there's more than one way to skin a cat.

Always interested in what you guys with more knowhow have to comment.


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## CrAkHaBiTT (Jan 18, 2005)

P.S. Glad you're happy with the work!


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## AmpTThill (Sep 18, 2011)

Don't get me wrong mate, I'm not a hate'r. I'm just looking at the value between stage 2 and yours.

For me stage 2 will just cost a FMIC and a remap, which for me is better value as I can use most of the stage 2 bits if I want to go BT in the future. But that's me and we're not starting at the same place.

Numbers around the 300 mark have been seen with stage 2 - but as previously posted that was with water meth and pulleys etc. http://www.********.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=244277

Would like to see how far you can push a k04 hybrid in terms of power...


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## fransh (Dec 16, 2011)

AmpTThill said:


> Don't get me wrong mate, I'm not a hate'r. I'm just looking at the value between stage 2 and yours.
> 
> For me stage 2 will just cost a FMIC and a remap, which for me is better value as I can use most of the stage 2 bits if I want to go BT in the future. But that's me and we're not starting at the same place.
> 
> ...


If you look at the plot & READ the figures this stage 2 car is producing only 230bhp at the wheels, mine is producing 271bhp at the wheels. (41bhp more)
Are we supposed to believe that a Haldex quattro system saps 81.9bhp? Thats 26.2%  If this was really the case the guys in the Audi transmission department are a set of morons and should be flipping burgers :?

If this is the case then my car is producing a massive* 341bhp*. :lol:


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## fransh (Dec 16, 2011)

I really think the lads at BHP UK have been honest and not overstated the gains that they have produced.
My dyno plot may not give me big pub bragging rights but I think its an honest representation of the power that my car is producing


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## jamman (May 6, 2002)

Different cars on different RRs can't compare in any way shape or form.

All the more reason to get another RR day sorted in the next few months


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## AmpTThill (Sep 18, 2011)

fransh said:


> AmpTThill said:
> 
> 
> > Don't get me wrong mate, I'm not a hate'r. I'm just looking at the value between stage 2 and yours.
> ...


Stop being defensive and READ my post - I'm liking what you've done! Now go get some rods, manifold and FMIC and see what you can get out of it!


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## fransh (Dec 16, 2011)

Sorry AmpTThill.

At the moment according BHP UK my Intake air temps (or chrge temps) are quite low so a FMIC would not really be that effective.

However, if I decide to go to the next stage and up the boost then perhaps a FMIC would be needed.

Interestingly I could buy a switching programmer that would allow me to choose between several maps one for everyday use set as my car is now and one running more boost for track days or showing off at dyno days etc.


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## AmpTThill (Sep 18, 2011)

A FMIC will be allow more boost - plus your intake temps might well get higher in the summer.

With more and more people looking at hybrids, I wonder how long it'll be til we see 350+ from a k04...


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## CSMatt (Jun 15, 2011)

Being a newbie too the vag tuning scene I'm not aware of certain levels of power of each turbo...for me in the case of my Mrs 180 that ill be buying I'd go fmic, down pipes, filter, cat back then injectors then go k04...am I wrong in assuming 300bhp would be seen after mapping? Is seriously think about the rods ad a mist at this stage, again the above is based on speaking to friends and other forums...as for tranny loss myself id expect a lot more the 10% as my fwd mini with LSD losses about 16% as an average rule, again is it silly of me to think otherwise?? Btw love what ypube done mate


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## jamman (May 6, 2002)

CSMatt said:


> Being a newbie too the vag tuning scene I'm not aware of certain levels of power of each turbo...for me in the case of my Mrs 180 that ill be buying I'd go fmic, down pipes, filter, cat back then injectors then go k04...am I wrong in assuming 300bhp would be seen after mapping? Is seriously think about the rods ad a mist at this stage, again the above is based on speaking to friends and other forums...as for tranny loss myself id expect a lot more the 10% as my fwd mini with LSD losses about 16% as an average rule, again is it silly of me to think otherwise?? Btw love what ypube done mate


Yes mate you will be wrong prob 260-285 tops.

Enjoy the car and your build it's fun.


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## CSMatt (Jun 15, 2011)

Wow really was expecting more, friends with cupra r making 300bhp...hm maybe a gt28 will be ordered, I can get them cheaper in America and my mate can bring it over in his suit case so no import charges etc (he works out there once a month)


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## Adam-tt (Apr 3, 2010)

CSMatt said:


> Wow really was expecting more, friends with cupra r making 300bhp...hm maybe a gt28 will be ordered, I can get them cheaper in America and my mate can bring it over in his suit case so no import charges etc (he works out there once a month)


dyno lottery
There's a guy on the seat forum with basic stage 1 mods who's had 300bhp on a dyno lol


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## kazinak (Mar 23, 2010)

Seat cupra's are fwd so they loose less power than 4wd

Sent from my LT18i using Tapatalk


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## CSMatt (Jun 15, 2011)

kazinak said:


> Seat cupra's are fwd so they loose less power than 4wd
> 
> Sent from my LT18i using Tapatalk


This could very well be the reason


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## T3RBO (Dec 9, 2003)

Well done fransh for thinking outside the box and going down a different route to most of us, including me. Glad your happy with the results and the money spent


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## Matt B (Apr 8, 2007)

Sounds like you have got yourself a great bargain there mate - well done for doing something different too. 
Would be very interesting for you to go head to head with someone like Tony Rigby's car with a maxxed K04.



AmpTThill said:


> intake temps might well get higher in the summer.


This isnt a might, this is a definite fact. Right now you have a seasonal help with the weather but as that charge air heats up you will lose power - fact. Plenty of good value IC options out there for people who are willing to think outside the box - L33JSA has a MASSIVE evo core on his that prob cost him less than 2 ton to buy and fit!


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## fransh (Dec 16, 2011)

Carl did say the very low ambient temps would be keeping charge temps down. Got a few months to sort a FMIC, then they can up the boost a little more as well.


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## fransh (Dec 16, 2011)

Will probably need a new clutch soon too!


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## L33JSA (Jun 30, 2010)

kazinak said:


> Seat cupra's are fwd so they loose less power than 4wd
> 
> Sent from my LT18i using Tapatalk


But this wouldnt influence the flywheel figure.....


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## kazinak (Mar 23, 2010)

L33JSA said:


> kazinak said:
> 
> 
> > Seat cupra's are fwd so they loose less power than 4wd
> ...


dyno measures power from the wheels,than calculate flywheel figure , so quattro will lose more power on the transmission than FWD car

but i could be wrong :?


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## L33JSA (Jun 30, 2010)

kazinak said:


> L33JSA said:
> 
> 
> > kazinak said:
> ...


Correct....but transmission losses are based upon a percentage remember.

So lets say for arguements sake a FWD loses 10% and 4WD loses 20%

FWD records 280 plus 10% loss - 308
4WD records 258 plus 20% loss - 308


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## AmpTThill (Sep 18, 2011)

Looking forward to seeing what you get if you up the boost further - do you know what boost level your running now? What is the max your hybrid can flow?

Given your torque levels, you should think about rods before going any further...


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## fransh (Dec 16, 2011)

AmpTThill said:


> Looking forward to seeing what you get if you up the boost further - do you know what boost level your running now? What is the max your hybrid can flow?
> 
> Given your torque levels, you should think about rods before going any further...


Looking at my torque graph (I'll try to post it later) I get max torque at 3500rpm and max power between 5500 & 6000rpm. I was going to ask Carl, the mapper, to see if he could work on the higher end and leave the torque max where it is.I don't have the exact details of what boost I'm running but Carl did say there was more to go at, especially if I fitted a FMIC.


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## Matzu (Feb 1, 2012)

Are proper Stage 2 maps giving that amount of torque? 477nm? Thats something I'd like to have over 300bhp.

I did have mk4 Golf with 301bhp/398nm, using GT2860RS with .86 a/r and lots of support mods, highest torque peak came at 4300rpm or so. Now for My TT I'm really trying to get alot more low-end torque because I'm not often driving around with over 4000rpm where most of power came in my Golf.

I'm getting My TT tuned/dynoed on 3.3, I've changed Forge TIP, BSR catback and thats that, lets see what I get with those and good map


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## kazinak (Mar 23, 2010)

Matzu said:


> Are proper Stage 2 maps giving that amount of torque? 477nm? Thats something I'd like to have over 300bhp.
> 
> I did have mk4 Golf with 301bhp/398nm, using GT2860RS with .86 a/r and lots of support mods, highest torque peak came at 4300rpm or so. Now for My TT I'm really trying to get alot more low-end torque because I'm not often driving around with over 4000rpm where most of power came in my Golf.
> 
> I'm getting My TT tuned/dynoed on 3.3, I've changed Forge TIP, BSR catback and thats that, lets see what I get with those and good map


no change to make 300bhp and 477nm with your mods and stage 2 remap , it's probably impossible to make 477nm with the standard turbo


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## Adam-tt (Apr 3, 2010)

Tony rigby has that amount of torque

Sent from my Atari 2600


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## Matzu (Feb 1, 2012)

kazinak said:


> Matzu said:
> 
> 
> > Are proper Stage 2 maps giving that amount of torque? 477nm? Thats something I'd like to have over 300bhp.
> ...


Yea thats what I meant. But seems that some just stares at the bhp without seeing the difference in torque. 
Imho k04 hybrid is not waste of money unless you stare only stage 2 map peak bhp with standard k04 vs hybrid with tad more bhp but alot more torque. 

One Finnish turbo dealer said that they have and they can modify k04 so it is usable to 350bhp/500nm, costing around 1300€. I'm going to get one for sure after stock k04 is dead.


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## Bago47 (Nov 27, 2011)

Matzu said:


> Yea thats what I meant. But seems that some just stares at the bhp without seeing the difference in torque.
> Imho k04 hybrid is not waste of money unless you stare only stage 2 map peak bhp with standard k04 vs hybrid with tad more bhp but alot more torque.
> 
> One Finnish turbo dealer said that they have and they can modify k04 so it is usable to 350bhp/500nm, costing around 1300€. I'm going to get one for sure after stock k04 is dead.


500nm out of k04? Are you sure? 

By the way, can someone explain me the difference between Hybrid turbo and Garrett GT2871R? Hybrid turbo is a straight swap and for garret you need other modifications such as intercooler, coilpacks, injectors, clutch?.... And with hybrid turbo you keep the turbo lagg, but with garret the lagg is smaller and it can keep the power up to high rpms?

And what's the max power/torque you can achieve with garret turbo?


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## Bago47 (Nov 27, 2011)

http://www.turbodynamics.co.uk/shop/md4 ... -2728.html

Estimated power output 340-360bhp.

It's a hybrid turbo that costs about 1300€. I'd like to know which other modifications would I need and how much nm (torque) could i expect?


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## kazinak (Mar 23, 2010)

Bago47 said:


> 500nm out of k04? Are you sure?
> 
> By the way, can someone explain me the difference between Hybrid turbo and Garrett GT2871R? Hybrid turbo is a straight swap and for garret you need other modifications such as intercooler, coilpacks, injectors, clutch?.... And with hybrid turbo you keep the turbo lagg, but with garret the lagg is smaller and it can keep the power up to high rpms?
> 
> And what's the max power/torque you can achieve with garret turbo?


with the hybrid ko4 you have less lag because the turbo are smaller than Gt2871 and spoils up quicker, if you fit turbo only ,don't expect to get 340-360bhp, you will be lucky to reach 300bhp, to use full hybrid potencial you will need 3'' turbo back exhaust, fmic,bigger injectors and better exhaust manifold etc... you will end up spending another £2-2.5k on sporting mods

if you want to know about the gt2871rs ask Matt B about it


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## fransh (Dec 16, 2011)

I'm hoping to upgrade to a Mk2 so the car is now for sale. I want £5,250 or a sensible offer, I think that's good value considering the amount that I spent on the car.

PM me if anyone is interested.


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## kazinak (Mar 23, 2010)

fransh said:


> I'm hoping to upgrade to a Mk2 so the car is now for sale. I want £5,250 or a sensible offer, I think that's good value considering the amount that I spent on the car.
> 
> PM me if anyone is interested.


 remember, no one cares how much you spend , people will look on the mileage and year


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## jamman (May 6, 2002)

+1

Good luck with the sale mate you are aiming for a very small market but it's priced well enough I would do a proper rundown with all the info about the car to promote it.

You never did post the dynos ?


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## TT SMITHY (Jan 18, 2011)

fransh said:


> I'm hoping to upgrade to a Mk2 so the car is now for sale. I want £5,250 or a sensible offer, I think that's good value considering the amount that I spent on the car.
> 
> PM me if anyone is interested.


Yeah and i wouldnt call a mk2 an upgrade :wink:


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## jamman (May 6, 2002)

TT SMITHY said:


> fransh said:
> 
> 
> > I'm hoping to upgrade to a Mk2 so the car is now for sale. I want £5,250 or a sensible offer, I think that's good value considering the amount that I spent on the car.
> ...


I bit my tongue Smithy :lol: :wink:


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## TT SMITHY (Jan 18, 2011)

jamman said:


> TT SMITHY said:
> 
> 
> > fransh said:
> ...


 :lol: :lol:


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## fransh (Dec 16, 2011)

jamman said:


> +1
> 
> Good luck with the sale mate you are aiming for a very small market but it's priced well enough I would do a proper rundown with all the info about the car to promote it.
> 
> You never did post the dynos ?


To be honest the past few months have been very hectic with work so not really been on here much. Will try to get the plots posted soon along with an ad for the car.


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## Mondo (Feb 20, 2009)

fransh said:


> ...Will try to get the plots posted soon along with an ad for the car.


Make sure the BHP and torque lines cross at 5252, won't you... :roll:


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## TT SMITHY (Jan 18, 2011)

What we ALL want to know is what injectors are you using :roll: ah its ok just seen 470cc Bosch right ?


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## Super Josh (May 29, 2009)

[quote="Mondo"Make sure the BHP and torque lines cross at 5252, won't you... :roll:[/quote]

Only if the power and torque curves have the same Y-axis values


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## fransh (Dec 16, 2011)

Super Josh said:


> [quote="Mondo"Make sure the BHP and torque lines cross at 5252, won't you... :roll:


Only if the power and torque curves have the same Y-axis values [/quote]

Only works if you plot wheel horse power against torque in lb-ft :roll:


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## fransh (Dec 16, 2011)

TT SMITHY said:


> What we ALL want to know is what injectors are you using :roll: ah its ok just seen 470cc Bosch right ?


Anything you need to know, just ask Smithy :roll:


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