# How do you listen to music?



## Monkeytree (Mar 8, 2013)

I was just wondering how people listen to music in their TT's, there seems to be a few options but none seem perfect. As far as I can tell...

Mp3 SD card slots, if you've got the new sat nav unit this seems to work well, with 64gb capacity, but the older unit (like mine, 2008) only takes 4gb and 400 songs so not much good.

iPad connector lead in glove box, seems to have numerous issues connecting to new iPhones or iPods. Also you have to use the interface though the stereo which has its upsides and problems.

Cd auto changer, mine anyway doesn't play mp3s so pretty limited to 6cds.

Phone mount, specifically iPhone 5. In previous cars I've used a brodit mount and a USB / 3.5mm split cable which can be wired in neatly and works quite well to get music off your iPhone. However these cables aren't available for the iPhone 5. You can buy a apple adaptor for £30 and then use a cradle and the old cable which should work, I haven't tried it. It's not very elegant though and the adaptor is only available in white which will look a mess in the interior and cradle etc.

Has anyone tried mounting a iPod touch or nano anywhere, which might be a nice solution. You can also get them in a range of colours to match your car, ( yes I am that sad!)

Also anyone tried Bluetooth, I've got this in my other car which works quite well as you then only need a cheap car cradle to hold the phone.

Any other ideas welcome!


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## datamonkey (Jan 23, 2012)

Don't forget you can use 2 x 4Gb SD cards for 8Gb which improves the capacity a bit...


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## beepcake (May 17, 2002)

A2DP is my plan with the Dension Gateway Pro BT - just need to make my mind up whether to fit it myself or try and find someone I trust to fit it.


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## jamman (May 6, 2002)

As a rule through my ears :wink:


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## Phage (Sep 25, 2011)

In the Mark 1, I used one of these connected to the iPhone. Worked very well indeed and excellent value for money.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Belkin-Car-Tune ... B002S8AFE8
In the Mark 2, I burnt hundreds of MP3s to 6 CDs and then put then in the CD changer. I am now actively considering someway of getting ipod functionality in there.
Is the Audi kit any good ?


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## moro anis (May 27, 2010)

Used to use just the CD Changer but now SD cards only - you can have several cards and just interchange them.
The other thing was my Walkman or iPhone through the AUX socket but buy the multipin connector to 3.5mm jack for best results. The 3.5mm to 3.5mm jack from the headphone socket is subdued as not for that purpose.


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## moro anis (May 27, 2010)

Used to use just the CD Changer but now SD cards only - you can have several cards and just interchange them.
The other thing was my Walkman or iPhone through the AUX socket but buy the multipin connector to 3.5mm jack for best results. The 3.5mm to 3.5mm jack from the headphone socket is subdued as not for that purpose.


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## CWM3 (Mar 4, 2012)

I mainly listen from an IPOD via a Dension GW 100


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## angrybritain (Feb 13, 2013)

Just discovered the joy of MP3 CDs, three of those in the Symphony II+ equals twelve albums on two discs and 100 random songs on another, three more lots to fill and that's plenty of tunes in the car on 'MIX' with track names on the display! #Win


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## beepcake (May 17, 2002)

angrybritain said:


> Just discovered the joy of MP3 CDs, three of those in the Symphony II+ equals twelve albums on two discs and 100 random songs on another, three more lots to fill and that's plenty of tunes in the car on 'MIX' with track names on the display! #Win


I only have the Concert in mine - didn't think it would bother me, but it does  Just don't want to pay EBay prices for a Symphony upgrade :?


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## angrybritain (Feb 13, 2013)

beepcake said:


> I only have the Concert in mine - didn't think it would bother me, but it does  Just don't want to pay EBay prices for a Symphony upgrade :?


Before this I'd been looking at the Denison iGateway which looks pretty good - at a cost and time to install. A few here have it or previous versions.

http://www.dension.com/product/igateway-gw17xxx

This little MP3 CD find might have negated the need for that now. MP3s no good in the Concert then I take it? You get about 80- songs on a CD.


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## Joerek (Oct 24, 2008)

With the Iphone 5 you wouldn't be able to use the adapter and to use the aux cables, as on the lightning socket, there are no analog aux outputs. The adapter will only help you out with charging and data.


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## beepcake (May 17, 2002)

angrybritain said:


> Before this I'd been looking at the Denison iGateway which looks pretty good - at a cost and time to install. A few here have it or previous versions.
> 
> http://www.dension.com/product/igateway-gw17xxx
> 
> This little MP3 CD find might have negated the need for that now. MP3s no good in the Concert then I take it? You get about 80- songs on a CD.


Yeah, it plays MP3s fine, but only single disc which is nowhere near enough and I hate swapping CDs  For the same price as an EBay Symphony (roughly) I can get the dension thing I mentioned earlier and get A2DP and phone support.


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## jam3sc (Dec 7, 2012)

beepcake said:


> angrybritain said:
> 
> 
> > Just discovered the joy of MP3 CDs, three of those in the Symphony II+ equals twelve albums on two discs and 100 random songs on another, three more lots to fill and that's plenty of tunes in the car on 'MIX' with track names on the display! #Win
> ...


Beepcake - I've also been toying with the idea of upgrading from Concert to Symphony, but can't afford it at the moment. There is a (relatively) cheap one on eBay at the moment (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/251257241952? ... 1423.l2649) I can even tell you my highest offer that got rejected so you know where to start from.


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## beepcake (May 17, 2002)

jam3sc said:


> Beepcake - I've also been toying with the idea of upgrading from Concert to Symphony, but can't afford it at the moment. There is a (relatively) cheap one on eBay at the moment (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/251257241952? ... 1423.l2649) I can even tell you my highest offer that got rejected so you know where to start from.


I messaged him when the auction appeared asking if it came with the code, and it doesn't - which, from my understanding, means (a) it's probably nicked and (b) it won't be usable :?


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## jam3sc (Dec 7, 2012)

beepcake said:


> jam3sc said:
> 
> 
> > Beepcake - I've also been toying with the idea of upgrading from Concert to Symphony, but can't afford it at the moment. There is a (relatively) cheap one on eBay at the moment (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/251257241952? ... 1423.l2649) I can even tell you my highest offer that got rejected so you know where to start from.
> ...


Ah that makes sense, glad my offers weren't accepted now. So a code is a MUST if buying an Audi head unit?


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## beepcake (May 17, 2002)

jam3sc said:


> Ah that makes sense, glad my offers weren't accepted now. So a code is a MUST if buying an Audi head unit?


As far as I know, yes. As soon as it detects that its connected to a different VIN it will ask for the code - there are radio code decoder sites but I've never gotten them to work with the Symphony serials - Audi will give you the code, but they're not meant to do so unless the VIN number the radio is from is your car, but YMMV on that one.


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## barton TT (Nov 13, 2004)

Audi Phatnoise for me.
http://www.phatnoise.com/audi/


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## warrenstuart (Mar 3, 2010)

Memory stick (flash drive) plugged straight into head unit, simples


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## TT-driver (Sep 14, 2010)

beepcake said:


> jam3sc said:
> 
> 
> > Ah that makes sense, glad my offers weren't accepted now. So a code is a MUST if buying an Audi head unit?
> ...


I was there when my dealer replaced my Concert under warranty (cd-player issue). They had to connect de car to the Audi computer and put it into replace radio mode. Then when the new radio was connected and turned on, it asked for a 4 digit code. After that was done the Audi computer was logged off. So I guess radio and car were married in some sort of way. Later when I reinstalled the radio at some point, no code was asked for. It was plug and play.


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## glospete (Feb 1, 2013)

jamman said:


> As a rule through my ears :wink:


But my wife says I sometimes talk through my .....


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## beepcake (May 17, 2002)

TT-driver said:


> As far as I know, yes. As soon as it detects that its connected to a different VIN it will ask for the code - there are radio code decoder sites but I've never gotten them to work with the Symphony serials - Audi will give you the code, but they're not meant to do so unless the VIN number the radio is from is your car, but YMMV on that one.


I was there when my dealer replaced my Concert under warranty (cd-player issue). They had to connect de car to the Audi computer and put it into replace radio mode. Then when the new radio was connected and turned on, it asked for a 4 digit code. After that was done the Audi computer was logged off. So I guess radio and car were married in some sort of way. Later when I reinstalled the radio at some point, no code was asked for. It was plug and play.[/quote]

Yeah, it only asks for a code if the VIN of the car it's connected to changes.. Less annoying than every time the battery is disconnected


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## R70 TTC (Nov 30, 2006)

Tried a memory stick, enjoyed a Phat noise but have used an iPod for the past 3 TTs. At the moment I have a 160 GB iPod that gives me all I need. 12,000+ tracks with an RNS-E. Yep I get bored easily but it's great. Cheers, Raife


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## Davio (Jul 31, 2012)

Biggest frustration for me on the RNS e system is the shuffle function while playing off ipod or SD card doesnt not stay on shuffle! plays about hald a dozen tracks and then reverts back to playing through the list! :?


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## R70 TTC (Nov 30, 2006)

Davio said:


> Biggest frustration for me on the RNS e system is the shuffle function while playing off ipod or SD card doesnt not stay on shuffle! plays about hald a dozen tracks and then reverts back to playing through the list! :?


Yep have to put shuffle on each time I put the key in the ignition, which is very annoying but it does play randomly for a good long time after that


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## tt-ho (Aug 26, 2010)

mines came with the Symphony unit with ipod hookup. I dont use iphone or ipod so thats useless to me. Wish it came with AUX...so I currently have this unit installed

Pioneer AVH-X4500BT
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/ ... VH-X4500BT
--- wish it had more android support but at least it supports A2DP so I can play music from my phone through bluetooth. I also have a 32gb USB stick connected as well that I load videos on.

I had the Pioneer AVH-P4200DVD prior but that one didnt have bluetooth (unless you buy the add-on).


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## Monkeytree (Mar 8, 2013)

Lots of useful info.

Does anyone using the cd changer for playing mp3s have an older car, mine is 2008 and when I put a mp3 cd in the autochanger ( 6cd one in the glove box) it doesn't play. Is this an older style of changer or do I need to try again with a variety of mp3s or something?

Cheers.


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## beepcake (May 17, 2002)

Monkeytree said:


> Lots of useful info.
> 
> Does anyone using the cd changer for playing mp3s have an older car, mine is 2008 and when I put a mp3 cd in the autochanger ( 6cd one in the glove box) it doesn't play. Is this an older style of changer or do I need to try again with a variety of mp3s or something?
> 
> Cheers.


MP3 playback is for the in dash cd(s) only (1 for concert, 6 for symphony).. The changer is just normal cds.


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## wellhouse (Jan 26, 2012)

through a pioneer f30. 160gb iPod in glove box to watch films/music videos and more music than i'll ever listen to. Also through bluetooth (or in glove box) on my iPhone, if it's not on the ipod. Can also use mp3 players, sdcards (on head unit) or hard drive through usb or jack plug connection in glove box or ashtray if a friend prefers their music - or if i get really bored i start using app radio and internet. so much choice! why bother with outdated rnse kit with all those extras you have to bolt on it it to get full functionality? (costs a bomb to). The multi function wheel works fine with it as well.


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## Alexjh (Oct 10, 2012)

Phone mount doesn't link to Audi system. Only the AMI in glovebox

Use the Apple 30-8 pin lightning Adapter and that charges controls and allows phone to work with stereo as expected.
So iPhone 5 is fine.

Tried blue tooth adapter also but this was tinny and sound quality was shit so I went back to cable.

Might be swapping to a droid from my iPhone 5 do they only work with Aux? Or does it play sound digital through the USB?

I use spotify so not many options music wise unless I get a iPod touch but still would need to manually control (Audi controls do not work with spotify)


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## Templar (Mar 9, 2012)

Monkeytree said:


> I was just wondering how people listen to music in their TT's, there seems to be a few options but none seem perfect. As far as I can tell...
> 
> Mp3 SD card slots, if you've got the new sat nav unit this seems to work well, with 64gb capacity, but the older unit (like mine, 2008) only takes 4gb and 400 songs so not much good.
> 
> ...


400 songs is not enough... Sheez !!! How can that be, you driving to Australia and back each day. Just have more than 1 SD card ffs.

Digressing slightly, tunein radio app on the phone is superb I've found, have a look


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## 2Slick (May 20, 2011)

Iphone 5 > I also use spotify and a brodit holder with apple lightning cable connected to an extension lead into the iPod connecter in the glovebox plus a scosche converter on the cable that solves the charging issue (all discreetly hidden of course!).

This allows the iphone5 to work perfectly in the TT playing all of my music and also spotify app and controlling from the multi-function steering wheel. The sound quality is fantastic given that spotify can output at 320 kbit/s - much better that the music from the standard phone/iPod.


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## Alexjh (Oct 10, 2012)

2Slick said:


> Iphone 5 > I also use spotify and a brodit holder with apple lightning cable connected to an extension lead into the iPod connecter in the glovebox plus a scosche converter on the cable that solves the charging issue (all discreetly hidden of course!).
> 
> This allows the iphone5 to work perfectly in the TT playing all of my music and also spotify app and controlling from the multi-function steering wheel. The sound quality is fantastic given that spotify can output at 320 kbit/s - much better that the music from the standard phone/iPod.


hmm can't control Spotify from my iPhone 5 and the wheel if I use the track up and track down options it seems to exit spotify and swtich to pod casts or ipod mode...

I just have the apple adapter on the end of normal MMI.. I get charging etc.. didn't need everything you list above.


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## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

It's pretty easy to track down the reason most people are unhappy with the sound from the stock head unit and system. Most people are playing highly compressed MP3 or AAC files and when you take out 80% of the data from a CD source or even more from an analogue source you find that you will lose something. Even on so-called lossless compression. Try a CD in your head unit and I think you'll be surprised just how awful the rubbish they sell on iTunes actually is. Even Apple stream a 256-bit version rather than the 128-bit version they sell. Why? Because the 128-bit version is actually very poor quality.

I recently put a VERY expensive system into my Touareg and I was shocked how carp it sounded. Then I tried the same track from a original CD and the difference was enormous.


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## 2Slick (May 20, 2011)

Alexjh said:


> 2Slick said:
> 
> 
> > Iphone 5 > I also use spotify and a brodit holder with apple lightning cable connected to an extension lead into the iPod connecter in the glovebox plus a scosche converter on the cable that solves the charging issue (all discreetly hidden of course!).
> ...


I have a 2007 3.2 coupe with the standard iPod connector in the glovebox and standard single cd/mp3 player - perhaps the lead that I use coupled with the scosche connector makes a difference? Mine does not charge the phone without the scosche connector - I can definitely change tracks and volume etc from the steering wheel when playing through the standard music app or spotify app on the iPhone 5...

This is what I used http://www.amazon.co.uk/Scosche-Passpor ... B001HN6CVA


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## kiddy31 (May 12, 2012)

What cable did you use Templar?


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## Templar (Mar 9, 2012)

kiddy31 said:


> What cable did you use Templar?


I just use a 3.5mm plug to 3.5mm plug from the headphone socket to the Aux in of the stereo.


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## ZephyR2 (Feb 20, 2013)

2Slick said:


> Iphone 5 > I also use spotify and a brodit holder with apple lightning cable connected to an extension lead into the iPod connecter in the glovebox plus a scosche converter on the cable that solves the charging issue (all discreetly hidden of course!).
> 
> This allows the iphone5 to work perfectly in the TT playing all of my music and also spotify app and controlling from the multi-function steering wheel. The sound quality is fantastic given that spotify can output at 320 kbit/s - much better that the music from the standard phone/iPod.


That's a carefully thought out set up. Sounds like it should be good fun.

I've got an old 300GB hard drive out of an old laptop, slipped it in to a caddy and it all fits very nicely in the little shelf in the glove box. Wired to the RNS-E via the USB socket from the AMI I can quickly browse through artists, albums, tracks without any difficulty. Can also use the controls on the steering wheel. All played through the Bose sound system.  
Any time I get some new music I just take out the hard drive and sync it with iTunes - easy! 

wja96 makes a good point. Good sound systems do emphasise the poor quality of low bit rate mp3s etc. I ripped all my CDs at 320 kbps. But I do have lots of stuff from Amazon (and a few from iTunes) at lower bit rates.
I was reading a debate recently about whether legal downloads at 256 kbps bits taken straight from the 24 bit studio master is actually better than commercial CDs (which are 16 bit) ripped at 320 kbps. I didn't understand most of it.


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## Templar (Mar 9, 2012)

Good point mentioned earlier. So many people complaining about poor sound quality from the Audi Bose setup..yeah I agree to a certain extent but when they're playing mp3's what do you expect. Mp3 is good for mass storage but sound quality is never going to be very good only decent at best. A simple test without using a cd for testing is try music played as mp4 (video) which has a higher bit rate.


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## tt-ho (Aug 26, 2010)

my car didnt even come with AUX input so I swapped out the stock unit for Pioneer AVH-X4500BT. Now I just listen to music from my phone over Bluetooth (or sometimes Pandora). Or sometimes I play videos off the USB thumbdrive.


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## Kalibre46 (Dec 20, 2004)

I know this is kinda thread resurecting, but I'd rather that than start a new bluetooth type one of which there are many.

Basically I've messed up by 'assuming' that the RNS-E in my spanky new MY14 TT supports AD2P, alas it doesn't it would appear.

I'm a massive user of bluetoothed streamed audio and I really want to avoid any cabled type scenario because 1) I'm lazy 2) I don't want to see them or cradles if possible.

I can't seem to find an answer on the other threads about enabling this on my current RNS-E + Bose setup. If I replace the Audi OEM BT module with something else (Fiscon?) will phone functions work seemlessly as before but also enable music track control (Spotify?)via the RNS-E/Steering wheel? How does the software cope/facilitate bluetooth music, or is it a hack?

Anyone done this?

Thanks!


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## burns (Jun 2, 2009)

I have my music on my iPhone 5 and have recently had a Parrot kit fitted so that I can stream music, make and receive calls, use the sat nav function, and charge the phone. I have the cable coming up through the ashtray so that there is no visible cabling, and I use the ashtray as the holder as I haven't yet found a holder that meets with my approval :wink: Can also stream music (plus say nav and calls of course) via Bluetooth with the Parrot, so plugged or unplugged, I still get my tunes and functionality. Not a cheap solution, but it seems to do what I want it to (early teething problems were due to pilot error!) and the only intrusions are the small screen, remote control and microphone.


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## relic222 (Aug 24, 2012)

Kalibre46 said:


> I know this is kinda thread resurecting, but I'd rather that than start a new bluetooth type one of which there are many.
> 
> Basically I've messed up by 'assuming' that the RNS-E in my spanky new MY14 TT supports AD2P, alas it doesn't it would appear.
> 
> ...


I have the Fiscon unit fitted in my car and it integrates with both the RNS-E and MFSW perfectly, allowing you to access phone book etc from the wheel as with the OEM unit. It does also support Bluetooth streaming unlike the OEM unit. I personally have a 32GB SD card in the RNS-E which I use for all of my music needs but I have tried out the bluetooth streaming a couple of times and if I recall it allowed me to control my phone through the steering wheel. I have an Android phone and was using the standard media player so I'm not sure about Spotify.


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## Kalibre46 (Dec 20, 2004)

relic222 said:


> Kalibre46 said:
> 
> 
> > I know this is kinda thread resurecting, but I'd rather that than start a new bluetooth type one of which there are many.
> ...


That's good news. Do you know exactly what unit yours is? Did Audi fit it on demand or was it a DIY job?

Thanks.


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## riano (Jul 2, 2013)

I have the fiscon basic bluetooth unit fitted and while it does support A2DP the sound quality is utterly horrific, and im no audiophile. It streams in mono and only the front speakers work-total waste of time.

I was due to have an OEM bluetooth put in to replace the Fiscon tomorrow and Audi have just told me that they will now no longer do this as OEM bluetooth unit would cost £2000 and they cant authorise this??

I seem to have seen places in England that fit the OEM unit for about the same price as a Fiscon so I dont understand where Audi are getting the £2000 from, any ideas or info anyone could give me before I go in to Audi tomorrow?


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## liffy99 (Feb 28, 2007)

For comparison the bitrate of a normal stereo CD is about 1400 (MP3 anything up to 320). 
However the environment in a moving car isn't exactly audio heaven so I find I really don't notice too much degradation playing 192 MP3s. I run lossless FLAC files at home on a £10k stereo - there I notice the difference 

It's pointless trying to listen to most classical, with very quiet passages, in any case.


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## relic222 (Aug 24, 2012)

Kalibre46 said:


> That's good news. Do you know exactly what unit yours is? Did Audi fit it on demand or was it a DIY job?
> 
> Thanks.


Sorry, I'm not sure which unit I have, it was in the car when I bought it. Interestingly Hazzy Dayz say that the Fiscon unit that they sell isn't compatible with the RNS-E 3G however I have the 3G unit and it all seems to work fine so perhaps I have a different model. As for sound quality I will test it next time I'm able to and let you know if mine is also limited to the front speakers.


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## idahospeed (Jul 15, 2013)

http://www.amazon.com/ViseeO-WMA1000-Tu ... B00B52LLJ6

The Tune2Air has been the best solution I have come across for Bluetooth streaming.

My iphone 5 will connect to the Tune2Air and the car so I can take calls via the car and play/control music through the phone OR the steering wheel controls.

Best part is it remembers what song you were on and doesn't reset like all the others I have tried... which killed me when listening to audiobooks.

Can't recommend this more!


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## BlackTipReefShark (Jun 1, 2016)

ive got an old iphone 6, 64GB, 6000 plus songs plugged into the AMI, plus two (i think 16GB) memory cards full up too

abou 70% is electronic music,


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## andyk17 (Aug 30, 2016)

Blimey this is an old thread, personally I have a 64gb USB stick in the glovebox and 2X 32gb SDHC cards in the slots behind the facia. More than enough music to keep me going for quite a while without hearing the same version of a song twice

Andy


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## ashfinlayson (Oct 26, 2013)

I do the same, handy that the SD cards fit straight into the macbook without any faffing around, so I get my albums straight off amazon with CD rip and copy it straight on to my sd cards to listen to on the way home from work, then look forward to the cd when it arrives in the post, I'm old fashioned like that


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## GaryG (Aug 21, 2016)

I have my android running through the Aux outlet to a Concert. It does the job for what I want.


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## SwissJetPilot (Apr 27, 2014)

I get my favorites off YouTube and save them to a SD card. The ashtray just happens to be the perfect size for SD card storage.


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## JohnnyFarmer (Aug 19, 2016)

iPhone6 in the Clearmount - Spotify Tune2Air AMI RNSE 
Need to sort out my Spotify playlists - thanks for the reminder 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## marteemoose (Mar 4, 2018)

I have a 32 gb sd card, unfortunately i have no idea how to copy the music into folders so find it next to impossible to find a specific tune. I then deleted and loaded about 200 tunes but even then it doesn't work great for me.
I have the 6 disc changer which i love, the music sound quality is so much better but again find the sd card more convienient.

I also have a cable that plugs directly into my (or someone elses) phone, you can't skip to the next song using the steering wheel though, anybody have any links on what's required to add lots of music to a sd card but split it up into folders ?


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## BlackTipReefShark (Jun 1, 2016)

liffy99 said:


> For comparison the bitrate of a normal stereo CD is about 1400 (MP3 anything up to 320).
> However the environment in a moving car isn't exactly audio heaven so I find I really don't notice too much degradation playing 192 MP3s. I run lossless FLAC files at home on a £10k stereo - there I notice the difference
> 
> It's pointless trying to listen to most classical, with very quiet passages, in any case.


i agree, FLAC sounds awesome at home, i have some pricey B&W speakers etc, and the difference between MP3 blue toothed from a phone and a FLAC file is a million miles,i would say better than CD,i swear by it.

apparently the TT Bose set up-of speakers is pretty good, the weak point being the RNSE unit, i read about someone who swapped out the unit for something that could play FLAC and was blown away, much louder and clearer.

Tuesday Morning by the Pogues sounds awesome at home


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## suchy911 (Feb 14, 2016)

I currently use an in car radio transmitter and link my phone via Bluetooth. Quality is ok the reason I do it this way is my car came before aux in became a standard and it has a iPod connector in the glove box which is never used.


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## xpanel (Jun 16, 2013)

Check out my thread about adding an AUX port to your car.

https://www.ttforum.co.uk/forum/viewtop ... 9&t=622993


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## cpfcfan (Jun 8, 2018)

2 32gb SD cards in the SD slots full of music does me nicely I have to admit. Plenty enough to get on with for the year for sure.


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## TTsdsgomg (Mar 19, 2013)

2 x 32gb sd cards encoded at 320kps, normally add a little gain to increase overall volume. Also have iphone 7 via MMi but mainly SD cards, I create 1st level folders and just title them with album name or 'new stuff 1' etc. Sound from 'BOSE' is pretty good, especially whilst roof down


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