# castlecoombe video!



## caney (Feb 5, 2004)

just found this little 6 min vid from a recent track day at coombe! watch the red mk1 golf absolutely fly round  he's all over keith murrays 450bhp A4 quattro!! then he does something that puts me off doing track days  http://media.putfile.com/vw-audi-track-day


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## Rhod_TT (May 7, 2002)

what happened there?


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## Bobstar (May 22, 2005)

worth watching just for the soundtrack 

Was he simply trying to cut the corner or what? cant understand why he was on the grass in the first place


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

oooh feck!

Do you know if he's ok? In the vid it looks like he was out cold.

Any ideas what happened? Really strange accident.


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## genocidalduck (May 19, 2005)

Thats a strange one. Cant see how he came to being on the grass in the first place. Caney you shouldnt let that put you off. You start slow then build it up gradually. I was crapping myself before i went onto the track. But with abit off Advice and guidence from Scotty. I couldnt believe i was so worried.


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## TTej (Sep 10, 2003)

OMG i hope he was ok, looks like he was on slicks, on on grass there was no way of stopping, does anyone know if hes ok??

i hope so. :?


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## JayGemson (Jun 8, 2004)

OUCH.

I've watched it a few times now, can't understand why he was on the grass. Maybe a puncture, or a sticky caliper pulling him over that far.


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## PaulRS3 (May 7, 2002)

brake light are on, not alot happening?

maybe no brakes took it to the grass to shave off speed?

im purely guessing. :?:

Thanks for finding the vid Caney [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

i didnt manage to go, but i know alot of the TSN members did, so have posted it up over there as well.


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## PaulRS3 (May 7, 2002)

internet suggest



> Bizarrely we saw Trevor appear to turn right off the track approaching Camp, which turned out to be intentional due to total brake failure (suspected boiled fluid) in an attempt to lengthen the corner and scrub speed off. Just relief all round that the ensuing prang hadn't occured at Tower. Estimates put the run to Camp at 120 - 130 mph, reduced by more than half before the impact


and the driver got up and walked out of it.


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

genocidalduck said:


> But with abit off Advice and guidence from Scotty. I couldnt believe i was so worried.


The blind leading the blind :lol: :lol: Only joking.

Track days are what YOU make of them. Jump in the car & go balls out (as Kev rightly stated in that OTHER thread on my 1st track day) & you could come a cropper, but having a car that's top drawer at keeping you on the straight & narrow is a good thing & it certainly helped me.

Instruction is the one thing that makes the biggest difference. Taking the correct lines, judging & taking the correct entry points, apexes & exit points correctly, braking correctly & at the right place & the most important i've found is making sure you're done with everything before entering the corner i.e. you're at the correct speed & in the correct gear so the only focus during a corner is the wheel & accelerator when exiting the corner. For me this has made by far the biggest difference & i'm sure most would agree. You'll find it's often the driver of the car that crahses, not the car itself (that can happen though with mechanical problems) so improve the driver ability & hey presto you're safer & quicker.


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## Stu-Oxfordshire (May 7, 2002)

caney said:


> then he does something that puts me off doing track days


Yes this is a frightening accident, but it shouldn't put you off doing track days. If people like this come up behind you; let them through - the further you are from their accident, the better.

The accident itself looks horrible; glad he walked away. But what happened? Either a complete steering failure or like others suggest, an attempt to reduce the speed following a brake failure. The approach to camp corner is pretty fast - I have no idea what I would do in that situation - as soon as you realise your brakes have failed you have about 2 seconds to do something - hitting the tyre barrier at that angle was probably the best option TBH (as opposed to head-on on rear ending it).

How long was he out for? It's difficult to see from these compilation clips but Keith's A4 was still right behind him suggesting that was a long old session, maybe he should have come in a bit earlier? It's very easy to criticise from this position.

Whatever the case, that was one fast Golf wasn't it? Keith's A4 is what...450bhp? The Golf keeping up with him in the run down to Quarry - with the weight advantage the Golf has I am wondering whether he was running a TT engine at about 300-350bhp?


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## kmpowell (May 6, 2002)

W7 PMC said:


> Track days are what YOU make of them. Jump in the car & go balls out (as Kev rightly stated in that OTHER thread on my 1st track day) & you could come a cropper, but having a car that's top drawer at keeping you on the straight & narrow is a good thing & it certainly helped me.
> 
> Instruction is the one thing that makes the biggest difference. Taking the correct lines, judging & taking the correct entry points, apexes & exit points correctly, braking correctly & at the right place & the most important i've found is making sure you're done with everything before entering the corner i.e. you're at the correct speed & in the correct gear so the only focus during a corner is the wheel & accelerator when exiting the corner. For me this has made by far the biggest difference & i'm sure most would agree. You'll find it's often the driver of the car that crahses, not the car itself (that can happen though with mechanical problems) so improve the driver ability & hey presto you're safer & quicker.


Paul, I really don't want to get into another argument again, but this what I was trying to point out last time!

How is what you have said above supposed to pre-empt the total brake failure that he seems to have suffered?

You can do a small amount to monitor your brake fluid, but at no point can you be in 100% control of it, and none of what you have said above would have 'saved' the chap in the golf should the worst have happened.


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## TVR_Man (May 21, 2002)

What were the overtaking rules? Seems people were not following them. Not my kind of trackday. It gets like this at the 'ring too - people passing left right and centre. Big no no for me. Most trackdays rigidly enforce the overtake on consent only.

The A4 should have moved over, but the red Golf should not have been pestering him like that either - just drop back for 1/2 lap or come in - you have nothng to prove (obviously they do).

As for the accident - we didn't see what happened just before he went across the grass, seems very odd. Maybe something broke.

Personally I'm not a fan of Castle Combe - too many fast corners. Outlon, Cadwell are more fun.


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## genocidalduck (May 19, 2005)

TVR_Man said:


> What were the overtaking rules? Seems people were not following them. Not my kind of trackday. It gets like this at the 'ring too - people passing left right and centre. Big no no for me. Most trackdays rigidly enforce the overtake on consent only.
> 
> The A4 should have moved over, but the red Golf should not have been pestering him like that either - just drop back for 1/2 lap or come in - you have nothng to prove (obviously they do).
> 
> ...


Been reading this on TSN also. It does appear to be brake faliure. Possibly boiling brake fluid whatever that does...Obviously stops ya brakes from working.

I was also quite shocked how crap the rules were being enforced. However someone who was there has said that the marshals were about to black flag them.


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## kmpowell (May 6, 2002)

TVR_Man said:


> What were the overtaking rules?


CC is normally overtaking on the right only.


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

W7 PMC said:


> genocidalduck said:
> 
> 
> > But with abit off Advice and guidence from Scotty. I couldnt believe i was so worried.
> ...


Just shows what a nutter the Duck is! :lol:

With regards the overtaking, I also noticed this. At the 'ring you see it a sometimes but it seems to be with newbies or the locals. In many case Brits pull to the left instead of the right. I try to educate them from my car i.e. indictor on....then flash and then horn...and with a bit of road positioning they normally get the idea. The locals I guess get frustrated with it happening and just go through. It's never been too much of an issue for me. Just the odd one here and there to deal with.


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## b3ves (May 6, 2002)

genocidalduck said:


> TVR_Man said:
> 
> 
> > What were the overtaking rules? Seems people were not following them. Not my kind of trackday. It gets like this at the 'ring too - people passing left right and centre. Big no no for me. Most trackdays rigidly enforce the overtake on consent only.
> ...


Of all the trackdays I've done, CC Audi/VW days have been the scariest, typically because of loons in 500 quid Golfs with 300 hp. I'd be very interested to hear what happened to cause his brakes to fail. Brakes don't typically fail altogether without any warning.


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## genocidalduck (May 19, 2005)

b3ves said:


> genocidalduck said:
> 
> 
> > TVR_Man said:
> ...


It's not good for people that want to track highend cars obviously. But you can understand their point. As im a complete novice to trackdays. I have been toying with the idea off buying something cheap and fast. Not because i dont want to track the RS4 as i will at such events as the TTOC as everyone is well behaved. But because i want to get on the track more. Going to an open trackday with twats in their Â£500 cars. I'd be alot ore at ease if i was in one also.


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

kmpowell said:


> W7 PMC said:
> 
> 
> > Track days are what YOU make of them. Jump in the car & go balls out (as Kev rightly stated in that OTHER thread on my 1st track day) & you could come a cropper, but having a car that's top drawer at keeping you on the straight & narrow is a good thing & it certainly helped me.
> ...


Kev, i've decided you're reading way too much into my posts & either missing my points totally or trying to alter them to cause an issue you can rise to.

I DID not say the driver was at fault & if he was more experienced then his brakes may not have failed, i was purely making the point that shit happens (rightly or wrongly) & it's not a reason to be scared of track days. If you have your car in good condition, take a bit of tuition & generally use some common (something i chose to lessen when 1st venturing on track) then you should be more than fine & have an excellent time.

My points & only points Kev where what can be done to mitigate such a thing happening to the poster who said it's that kinda clip that puts him off. Nothing can guarantee this not to happen but nothing in life can be guaranteed.

Back to the Golf Driver for a moment & perhaps you feel the need to defend him or even know him, but like you i read other forums & the general opinion from those with far more info than me or you is that he totally cooked his brakes through over use & very hard use (i'd say some of the blame falls on his shoulders don't you?) & that others on that track day were relieved to get off the track as both the A4 & Golf were showing little regard for others on the track & treating the event as their own personal race (not very clever & i recall how everyone on here including me shot down Mr Nomex Suit for displaying the same low regard). So mechanical failure it may have been, but if caused by over use & abuse i'd hardly say he was blameless & now that's cleared up i think the poster who was worried by such scenes may find a little comfort from the fact that this is not the norm at track days & of common sense prevails he should be OK.

As Duck says above, they were both about to be black flagged.

Do you think if you drove your car at the same pace for the same distance you'd not suffer boiled brake fluid or perhaps worse. He was too engaged in his race with the A4 for which they both about to be removed from the track for, to realise that his car & it's brakes could not take the abuse & something was about to give, which it appears it did. Brake fluid does not start boiling for no reason unless you perhaps live in the desert.


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

Bold statement about something that perhaps is something we could all have at some point - a mechanical failure.

I've not seen any facts just a lot of speculation. Pointing the finger now seems a little early to me.


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

scoTTy said:


> Bold statement about something that perhaps is something we could all have at some point - a mechanical failure.
> 
> I've not seen any facts just a lot of speculation. Pointing the finger now seems a little early to me.


Paul, over on Tyresmoke i think it was & also one on Audi-Sport, their are 2 quotes from other people who attended that event & they stated that both cars (the highly modified A4 & Red Golf) were really pushing on with little or no regard for other attendees & were about to get black flagged as the accident happened. They also confirm that the Golf suffered brake failure as a result of boiling/cooking the brake fluid, which at an educated guess is a result of the above.

Of course if it was total brake failure & this was a mechanical malfunction then nothing the driver could have done about it, but that does not appear to be either the general opinion or findings of others who attended the day which is what i've based my comments on.


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

W7 PMC said:


> scoTTy said:
> 
> 
> > Bold statement about something that perhaps is something we could all have at some point - a mechanical failure.
> ...


I know Combe pretty well. Camp is one corner that you really dont want to get it wrong as the entry speeds are high and the tyre walls close and unyielding. Hard to figure what happened. Boiled brake fluid would still give some retardation, and that is all that is needed for camp -a dab (firmish) to settle the front end, then turn in. On slicks he should have been fine. Total brake failiure he could have just popped third gear and held on. By the driving style adopted , fast for sure, but also inappropriate for the other track users, it would appear brain fade was involved in cause.

Glad chap is OK. It was a Big One. He should calm down in the future. It should be about finding (or rather easing up to) one' own limits on track days, and learning something about your cars dynamics and behaviour at track speeds.

On the track days I have done overtaking is on right and never under braking. Dicing should not be allowed - although we all like to try and reel in the car ahead or peg our selves to anothers similar performance.

Unlike many people's road car driving - when they do not want a following car that has caught up (genrally through travelling more quickly) to pass them, when on track it is generally considered good practice to let a faster car through and concentrate on your own drive. Once through you can try and hold on...for what ever reason he 'let go'. That should be a lesson. Expect the unexpected.


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## b3ves (May 6, 2002)

Exactly my thoughts, Gary. Well put


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## Stu-Oxfordshire (May 7, 2002)

garyc said:


> ....and that is all that is needed for camp -a dab (firmish) to settle the front end, then turn in. ....


Hmmm....I agree with all your comments however, Camp corner for me in the Evo was a fairly heavy stab on the brakes. Last time I was there in the dry I was only running about 330bhp in the Evo and even then the head of steam I had up by that corner required a real scrubbing off of speed. I can;t remember the exact speeds but maybe 120mph down to about 70/80?

If you assume the golf had the same power to weight as the Audi (they looked pretty well matched) and the Audi is a similar weight car to my old Evo, it's fair to assume that the maximum speed they reached prior to braking for Camp, would have been 10-20 mph higher than in the Evo ie: more than a dab to settle the front end. IMO this explains why he was so far back when he hit the grass.

This would all be sorted if he came online and set the record straight himself :roll:


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

Agreed & although i'm sure they knew the track well, it was the one corner that i struggled to measure during my 1st track day their in the RS6.

It was the only corner i recall saying to a PAX (may have been Kev or scoTTy) "i think we're going off here" as i had not scrubbed off enough speed prior to the corner & had to brake in the corner (not a good idea). It is a fast corner but the envelope is fairly small.

I also recall & scoTTy was more to blame than me :lol: that Wak almost came a cropper on that very corner as both scoTTy & myself were catching him fast coming up to Camp & in his attempt to stay ahead he took the corner too quickly & his passenger side wheels came off the track, however only slightly & he recovered it well. The clips were posted on here not long after the track day & we saw both sides, as Wak had his in car camera running as he went slightly off & the TT behind me was also filming ahead.


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

Shouldnt laugh - but anyone know where the train station is? :lol:


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

Stu-Oxfordshire said:


> garyc said:
> 
> 
> > ....and that is all that is needed for camp -a dab (firmish) to settle the front end, then turn in. ....
> ...


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## genocidalduck (May 19, 2005)

garyc said:


> Stu-Oxfordshire said:
> 
> 
> > garyc said:
> ...


First time at Combe i was only doing 60 round that corner. Whereas i was hearing people saying they were doing around 80. So the second time round i made an effort to get that speed so i did take a gander at the speedo whilst taking the corner. For most off the day it was around 70ish. But coming to the end off the day i got to 80 and noticed on one occasion just over. However if my adrenalin hadnt been pumping i would have been scared shitless and a few times thought i was heading for the tyre wall but the QS hung on.

I'm also surprised he didnt stay on the track and lose as much speed as he could through the gears. I'd much rather run the risk off blowing the engine and gearbox than chancing that i would cause myself a bad injury by hitting the wall. I guess he obviously thought by going cross contry would scrub off the speed he needed.


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## HighTT (Feb 14, 2004)

Whether he brought it on himself or not it looked like a horrible moment
and I'm glad he's OK.

What can you do to protect yourself at Track Days?
In tems of brake failure 
I use Castrol SRF brake fluid; IIRC it's nearly Â£50 for a 500ml can
but it's NOT going to boil;
I know that I could still could have brake failure but that's one major
component taken out of the equation.

I don't stay out too long; at Combe the retardation on the approach to Tower each lap is severe, you have been flat out from the Esses through Old Paddock Bend and down through Hammerdown, and if it goes wrong at Tower ..........    

I try to avoid pushing myself and my car beyond our limits
but sometimes I do get a little too determined to 'beat' a particular 
(faster in theory) car and have to remind myself of the consequences.

I can't remember who said ( was it Duck?) that they would have tried to take off speed using the gears; you couldn't do that; the braking point for
Camp is around the pit lane entrance and once you would have realised
your brakes had gone you would have reached your turning point
and you would then be effectively rear wheel braking only using the gears into a bend -
a recipe for a totally out of control spin.


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## genocidalduck (May 19, 2005)

HighTT said:


> Whether he brought it on himself or not it looked like a horrible moment
> and I'm glad he's OK.
> 
> What can you do to protect yourself at Track Days?
> ...


I must brake to early then.


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

HighTT said:


> Whether he brought it on himself or not it looked like a horrible moment
> and I'm glad he's OK.
> 
> What can you do to protect yourself at Track Days?
> ...


Tower is my fav. I love the late hard braking straight tpwards the tyre wall and that unyielding bank, and then turn in, lining up for the chicane and fire up the the track- but only in a Caterham or true track focussd car as you need to come on and off the brakes quickly. It is one of the corners where one can reel in the high powered road cars every time.

You should know when you brakes are getting too hot. Total failiure is very rare. Boiling fluid on cars with poor brake cooling (many fast road Audis and BMW for example) gives plenty of forewarning and only the foolish ignore this and at their peril. In the likes of an RS4, one might think of doing 2-3 steady warm ups, 2-3 hard laps, 2-3 more steady laps and so on. Last lap should always be steady.

Track work is harder on brakes than anything else. That's why the more serious track day fans and driving enthusiasts go for brake upgrades. They are worth many hp on the circuit.


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## omen666 (Oct 10, 2004)

b3ves said:


> Of all the trackdays I've done, CC Audi/VW days have been the scariest, typically because of loons in 500 quid Golfs with 300 hp. I'd be very interested to hear what happened to cause his brakes to fail. Brakes don't typically fail altogether without any warning.


A rarer failure is pad knock. Maybe what happened, but this is normally solved by releasing and re-applying, something that most people do in panic when the first application fails. It's also almost impossible to diagnose after the event, you rely on the driver's recollection. Just another angle.

Bottom line is they should have both been flagged well before then, and it is the drivers responsibility to look after the car and manage brake fade.

It is clear they both had the red mist on, the Golf wanted to take out the A4 as it has a reputation in the VW/Audi world as being extremely quick. It does a very good 1/4 mile, I've seen it at GTI Inters.

For me, seeing the video makes it harder to be sympathetic


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## HighTT (Feb 14, 2004)

garyc said:


> You should know when you brakes are getting too hot. Total failiure is very rare. Boiling fluid on cars with poor brake cooling (many fast road Audis and BMW for example) gives plenty of forewarning and only the foolish ignore this and at their peril.


I presume the forewarning you talk about is brake fade ....
AFAIK that is nothing to do with boiling fluid.

I have had sudden total brake failure (on the road!) when my brake fluid
boiled due to another problem.


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## Stu-Oxfordshire (May 7, 2002)

W7 PMC said:


> It was the only corner i recall saying to a PAX (may have been Kev or scoTTy) "i think we're going off here"


haha yes - these are exactly the same words I muttered to Kev when we were following you through Camp "oh sheet....he's going off"....and then again at Old Paddock Bend.....and then you did!

Lifting off on the exit is never a good idea Paul :roll:


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

HighTT said:


> garyc said:
> 
> 
> > You should know when you brakes are getting too hot. Total failiure is very rare. Boiling fluid on cars with poor brake cooling (many fast road Audis and BMW for example) gives plenty of forewarning and only the foolish ignore this and at their peril.
> ...


Brake fade has everything to do with boiling fluid, as in effect you lose the hydraulic pressure power to push the pistons in the calipers onto your discs and effect retardation. Increased brake pedal travel, groaning, spongy feeling and increased stopping distances are all symptoms of overheated brakes.

In most cases a driver (he hs is in any way aware) would notice a degradation in braking capability indicating t things were getting hot in the anchors.

Uprated fluids/ apds etc can go some way to help, and this varies from car to car, but ultimately it usually comes down to brakes ability to cool down from all the transfeered heat generated under hard braking.

What other problem apart from heavy use, boiled your brakes? High under bonnet temps from engine?


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

Stu-Oxfordshire said:


> W7 PMC said:
> 
> 
> > It was the only corner i recall saying to a PAX (may have been Kev or scoTTy) "i think we're going off here"
> ...


  Not in an RWD on the limit. And never in a 911.


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## HighTT (Feb 14, 2004)

garyc said:


> HighTT said:
> 
> 
> > garyc said:
> ...


OK there are two types of 'fade' but the one that happens with no
warning, the one that appears to have happened to the Golf we are
talking about is Pad fade: When the temperature at the interface between the pad and the disc exceeds the thermal capacity of the pad, the pad loses friction capability due partly to out gassing of the binding agents in the pad compound. Pad fade is also due to one of the mechanism of energy conversion that takes place in the pad. In most cases it involves the instantaneous solidification of the pad and disc materials together - followed immediately by the breaking of bonds that releases energy in the form of heat. This cycle has a relatively wide operating temperature range. If the operating temperature exceeds this range, the mechanism begins to fail. The brake pedal remains firm and solid but the car won't stop.


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

[smiley=sleeping.gif] sorry feel asleep - you have gas?


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

Stu-Oxfordshire said:


> W7 PMC said:
> 
> 
> > It was the only corner i recall saying to a PAX (may have been Kev or scoTTy) "i think we're going off here"
> ...


I was PAX at the time. To be honest I didn't think it was that bad.

With regards lifting off, sometimes when I've been ploughing towards the mud with understeer, :roll: I've found it quite useful :wink:


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

Stu-Oxfordshire said:


> W7 PMC said:
> 
> 
> > It was the only corner i recall saying to a PAX (may have been Kev or scoTTy) "i think we're going off here"
> ...


That brings back memories.

However i don't recall actually going off at Old Paddock :? it may have looked as if i was & no doubt scoTTy can confirm but i don't think my tyres came off the tarmac all day (nearly did a couple of times but never actually off)  . I know WAK had a small off as scoTTy & myself were realing him in & in a vain effort to stay ahead he pushed too hard into Camp & his PAX side wheels went off the track, however he gathered it up fine & no damage done. Also a Smart roadster spun i think, but that was it that day IIRC.

Agree that lifting off is not clever but being CC was my 1st ever track day & lifting off in an RS6 is not as dangerous as doing so in a RWD car, i can forgive myself

The biggest single thing i've learnt from instruction is that the only activity you should be undertaking in a corner is turning the wheel, all braking, gearchanges or even acceleration should be complete before arriving at the corners entry point. Of course if you're still coming in too hot then you have to take some rectifying action but assuming you've worked out the correct entry point of the corner, all you should then be doing is finding the close to max speed you can arrive, take & exit the corner at.


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

scoTTy said:


> Stu-Oxfordshire said:
> 
> 
> > W7 PMC said:
> ...


In a nose-heavy Audi, yes a lift will kill the understeer, as would winding off some lock. :wink:


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