# Power Figures for Revo



## PhilJ (Sep 2, 2002)

Take a look at this link?

http://www.seatcupra.net/forums/showthr ... adid=16129

How come a Revo modded Cupra R achieved 282bhp? I thought the engine was exactly the same as a TT225, and getting more than 270bhp was very difficult?

Cheers

Phil.


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## coupe-sport (May 7, 2002)

could be down to different exhausts, etc and the rolling road itself ...

Any standard cars for comparison ??

James.

Ps - saying that the PD cars - Golf 130 gets around 280lbft and the Ibiza 130 around 300lbft


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## Guest (Apr 16, 2003)

As coupe-sport says, these readings are meaningless without some kind of comparasion to another vehicle.
The fact they managed to vary results by 14bhp would ( to me ) indicate that these runs were not done very accurately or the rollers are not accurate.
It also doesn't say if thats wheel or fly figure.
Problem is loading up a rolling road is a manual process, compare it to moving your mouse cursor across the screen in a perfectly straight line ( try doing this one something like paint that gives you x and y cursor postions ) in exactly 3 seconds twcie in a row - every time you do it you'll get a slightly different result. Getting very very similar results takes skill and alot of practice!


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

But the second run gave him 268bhp and 279lb/ft which is more correct.

How do you actually secure the car on the rollers? Is there any chance that it may come off and crash?


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## UK225 (May 12, 2002)

> But the second run gave him 268bhp and 279lb/ft which is more correct.
> 
> How do you actually secure the car on the rollers? Is there any chance that it may come off and crash?


Ratchet straps, you will notice the car on the rollers in this pic the ratchet strap on the front is not fully closed.

This is NOT how ratchet straps should be used.

Unless the mechanism is closed slip can occur.


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

Looks like the straps are attached to the tow hook. Is this normal?

But again, if they car was going to slip...I though it woulc move forward not backwards. So do they have straps on the back too?

...just look at the state of the computer in the background! They need a cleaner in there! ;D


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## Guest (Apr 17, 2003)

If you're thinking of having REVO software installed just find the nearest dealer to yourself www.revotechnik.com and see if they can do the *free 5 hour trial* don't fall foul to the rolling road readouts, do the trial! experience exactly what it can do!

You can contact me 01634 260 280, Ben.


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## coupe-sport (May 7, 2002)

> don't fall foul to the rolling road readouts


Always a good quote from tuners who dont have a rolling road


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

> If you're thinking of having REVO software installed just find the nearest dealer to yourself www.revotechnik.com and see if they can do the *free 5 hour trial* don't fall foul to the rolling road readouts, do the trial! experience exactly what it can do!
> 
> You can contact me 01634 260 280, Ben.


I had the 5 hour trial...but I would like to actually know the figures too!

I know that the car goes like a rocket! ;D


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

> Always a good quote from tuners who dont have a rolling road Â


Is it so expensive to get a rolling road then?


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## coupe-sport (May 7, 2002)

Rolling roads are an expensive investment and need skill to operate them as well.


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## paulb (May 6, 2002)

I believe a state of the art 4WD rolling road is well into six figures


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## Dubcat (Jun 10, 2002)

> If you're thinking of having REVO software installed just find the nearest dealer to yourself www.revotechnik.com and see if they can do the *free 5 hour trial* don't fall foul to the rolling road readouts, do the trial! experience exactly what it can do!
> 
> You can contact me 01634 260 280, Ben.


Without a rolling road test, how will you know there are no problems in the car to start with?


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

> Without a rolling road test, how will you know there are no problems in the car to start with?


What kind of problems can be detected by a rolling road?


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## 55JWB (May 7, 2002)

Number One! I have Revo and bloody love it! it makes the car so much more fun to drive ;D ;D

Number Two! I as a couple of others are going to the Interpro meet on 8th June to see what we get in terms of BHP, with several of us there it will be good to see what we get between us

Jason


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## thorney (May 15, 2002)

> What kind of problems can be detected by a rolling road?


The main one is the air/fuel ratio. By changing the ECU map (either via chip of software change) it is possible that the AF mixture could run too lean or too rich. Too rich means you'll clog plugs but too lean means the pistons get too hot and you'll blow the engine.

It is for this reason I keep harping on to people NOT TO GET A REVO/AMD/MTM UNLESS IT IS INSTALLED ON A ROLLING ROAD. You're 5 hour free trial could well end up costing you a new engine - Â£3k for a TT.

I'm not suggesting the Revo map isn't good, as I'm sure it is, but the very concept of changing an ECU map in a pub car park without checking the AF mixture is at best a gamble and not one I'm prepared to take.


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## thorney (May 15, 2002)

Oh and MTM have just had a 4 wheel drive RR installed and it cost over Â£80k  so now you know why we're charged Â£800 for a simple chip.


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## paulb (May 6, 2002)

I think it was Giles who had his 225 into AmD for a chip and it was only producing 190 hp. Can't remember what the problem was but the car was fixed under warranty before the chip was installed - much easier that way round.


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## daveuni (Aug 5, 2002)

> The main one is the air/fuel ratio. By changing the ECU map (either via chip of software change) it is possible that the AF mixture could run too lean or too rich. Too rich means you'll clog plugs but too lean means the pistons get too hot and you'll blow the engine.


How exactly do they do this on the rolling road. ??? ??? ???


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## thorney (May 15, 2002)

> How exactly do they do this on the rolling road. Â ??? ??? ???


Attach various sensors to the car, exhaust and VAGCOM etc etc and measure everything all the way through the rev range.


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## AndrewS (May 7, 2002)

> The main one is the air/fuel ratio. By changing the ECU map (either via chip of software change) it is possible that the AF mixture could run too lean or too rich. Too rich means you'll clog plugs but too lean means the pistons get too hot and you'll blow the engine.
> 
> It is for this reason I keep harping on to people NOT TO GET A REVO/AMD/MTM UNLESS IT IS INSTALLED ON A ROLLING ROAD. You're 5 hour free trial could well end up costing you a new engine - Â£3k for a TT.
> 
> I'm not suggesting the Revo map isn't good, as I'm sure it is, but the very concept of changing an ECU map in a pub car park without checking the AF mixture is at best a gamble and not one I'm prepared to take.


is Revo going to comment on this?


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## Steve_Mc (May 6, 2002)

> It is for this reason I keep harping on to people NOT TO GET A REVO/AMD/MTM UNLESS IT IS INSTALLED ON A ROLLING ROAD. You're 5 hour free trial could well end up costing you a new engine - Â£3k for a TT.
> 
> I'm not suggesting the Revo map isn't good, as I'm sure it is, but the very concept of changing an ECU map in a pub car park without checking the AF mixture is at best a gamble and not one I'm prepared to take.


Second that Thorney [smiley=thumbsup.gif] which is why my S3 remians standard.....for now 

Steve


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## mab (Sep 2, 2002)

> Attach various sensors to the car, exhaust and VAGCOM etc etc and measure everything all the way through the rev range.


Is this something that can ONLY be identified through rolling road? ie. there is no other way.


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## Revo Kev (Mar 7, 2003)

Something to take into account, do you think that the factory fits individual software to every car they have on the production line for a given ecu part number and mechanical specification?

If other tuners aren't able to preset the A/F electronically then wouldn't you question their ability?!


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## AndrewS (May 7, 2002)

My experience with mapping cars is limited but in my days of motorbike carbs the fuelling was set on the rich (read safe) side from the factory. By getting it on the dyno to tune it you can improve this which gives a far crisper throttle response.
you can only do this on a dyno or you wouldn't know how far to go.
I assume cars come preset from the factory in a safe state of tune. if you were to push on the performance boundaries you would have to know how far to go.
the 'preset' revo system may also have a safe limit preset but this could be improved upon with a dyno.
Correct me if I'm wrong...and again it would be nice to get revo's input into this debate


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## Dubcat (Jun 10, 2002)

> If you're thinking of having REVO software installed just find the nearest dealer to yourself www.revotechnik.com and see if they can do the *free 5 hour trial* don't fall foul to the rolling road readouts, do the trial! experience exactly what it can do!
> 
> You can contact me 01634 260 280, Ben.


And another thing... 

Isn't the post above blatant advertising? It's his first post and he's giving out his phone number already!


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## WeegieTT (Nov 1, 2002)

> My experience with mapping cars is limited but in my days of motorbike carbs the fuelling was set on the rich (read safe) side from the factory. By getting it on the dyno to tune it you can improve this which gives a far crisper throttle response.
> you can only do this on a dyno or you wouldn't know how far to go.
> I assume cars come preset from the factory in a safe state of tune. if you were to push on the performance boundaries you would have to know how far to go.
> the 'preset' revo system may also have a safe limit preset but this could be improved upon with a dyno.
> Correct me if I'm wrong...and again it would be nice to get revo's input into this debate


I would have thought that with modern ECUs there should be no worries about mixtures going too far wrong? After all, the car already continually monitor the exhaust gas oxygen levels via the EGO/Lambda sensor and adjusts fuelling to keep within a fairly narrow range. IIRC, if the fuelling goes too far out of spec., the cat converter doesn't work. This was the main reason behind the move to ECU controlled fuel injection in the first place???


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## coupe-sport (May 7, 2002)

> I would have thought that with modern ECUs there should be no worries about mixtures going too far wrong? After all, the car already continually monitor the exhaust gas oxygen levels via the EGO/Lambda sensor and adjusts fuelling to keep within a fairly narrow range. IIRC, if the fuelling goes too far out of spec., the cat converter doesn't work. This was the main reason behind the move to ECU controlled fuel injection in the first place


Yeah but it doesnt run closed loop all the time - only at cruise and idle. So at wide open throttle its down to the mapping and airflow meter / throttle position sensors. The CAT only really works at steady state throttle conditions.


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## Revo Kev (Mar 7, 2003)

Modern electronic ecu's have a disired lambda value which is calculated by the lambda sensors in the air mass meter. This value can range from above stoich to full enrichment (regulated by injector duty cycle) the computer constantly changes these values if needed or requested by the ecu. The ecu also has built in protection systems that will considerably enrich the mixture if knock or dangerous egt's are produced. Most tuners run excessive amounts of boost, and run injectors at near 100% duty cycle which negates the ability of the ecu safety systems to enrich the mixture if dangerous conditions occur. It is for this reason that we offer three and four bar fuel pressure regulator programs which keep these safety measures intact.


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## thorney (May 15, 2002)

> Something to take into account, do you think that the factory fits individual software to every car they have on the production line for a given ecu part number and mechanical specification?
> 
> If other tuners aren't able to preset the A/F electronically then wouldn't you question their ability?!


Oh sure, its standard code but every engine has it's subtle differences which can be exagerated with different mods, exhaust for example. My point is you cannot be sure on AF without a RR, and if there is a chance of it being out then the results could be catestrophic. Audi parts guru has explained why its very little to do with lambda etc.

I think you're prodcut is excellent, innovative (although hardly new, you are the first for the TT) and you should be congratulated.

My concern is that you are selling this upgrade like its a bag of peanuts from the back of a car boot to people who have limited understanding about what it is they're doing and frankly I think that is wrong.

By all means get the Revo chip, but PLEASE get it checked at a RR when its done, even the 5 hour free trial 'could' cost you thousands.

On your last point on other tuners....yes, if they don't use a RR (and actually know what they're doing) then I won't use them - period.

I'm sorry if this comes accross as negative to Revo, that not my intention, however it is negative to RR less ECU upgrades because unless you can PROOVE to me that EVERY car you see has perfect AF after you've upgraded it then you are gambling with other peoples cars, all down to choice but I would like to see people make that choice based on all the information not just part.


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## Jac-in-a-Box (Nov 9, 2002)

Right or wrong place to post these comments?..not sure :-/ (all the "knowledge" seems to be around this post!)

But as we are talking about the requirements to do a RR run before and after a re-map, and being aware of the difficulties of carrying out a reliable run on TT's using Maha rolling roads, I thought I would throw in my 2p worth.

Intend and still do to get the new APR serial port re-map carried out by Star Performance in Scotland. Was somewhat put off by the comments concerning the Maha rolling road they used..should I re-map or not :-/

After a lengthy chat with Jim he persuaded me that Maha RR's can dyno TT's despite the problems the Haldex unit can throw up, he has carried out work on several MTM cars and has dyno'd many TT's / S3's.
As has been mentioned before, the RR is only as good as the experience and skill of the operator. Jim has in the past had problems with TT's but is able to overcome them (Maha provided the solution - after all what use is a state of the art digital German RR if you can't RR a German car!)

Any way, I was invited to put Jackie's car on the RR to see for myself...absolutely NO problems, the first run caused some slight "bucking" of the car as the Haldex shifted power between front and rear wheels. Adjustment to the roller loading gave a rock solid perfect 2nd run.

From the plot (duff scanner so I will post later) the folowing info on test (180 TT Miltec exhaust)

Norm power Â Â 188bhp
Engine output Â 186bhp
Wheel output Â 114.5bhp
Drag output Â Â Â 71.5bhp
Max torque Â Â Â 191 lbf-ft @ 5050rpm
Air temp Â Â Â Â Â 35 deg C

The torque curve is pretty flat with around 180 lbf-ft at around 2400 rpm - torque rose slghtly with rpm.

The run was carried with ESP switched off (on dash - no fuses removed) Vagcom connected during run.

I'm happy with Maha and TT's... given a good and experienced operator 

Any comments welcomed - any questions...well I am on a steep learning curve!

Dave (for Jackie)


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## Steve_M (May 6, 2002)

I agree with Thorney, a proper RR checkup is very desirable. Audi can possibly get away with doing less because they set the parameters very conservatively, the engine will give a lot more than Audi extract from it.

If a tuner wants to use up some of the margin by making the engine produce more power, there is far less room left for manufucaturing tolerences and drift during the live of the car. The dealer I used for servicing had several chip-swap cars back for new engines or cylinder heads which were in his opinion necessitated by the damage caused by a chip. The warning signs that all isn't right with a chip program will 9 times out of 10 be spotted on a rolling road test.

I had an MTM chip fitted before Kim had a RR but went straight to Power Engineering for a checkup. Also, if Kim has installed a RR then there must be a reason for it, he's not going to spend Â£80k (really ?) for nothing.


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

Will the RR after the REVO upgrade will be good? Or do you have to do one before as well?

Also if any problems occur what do you normally do to rectify them? Do you take the car back to Audi?


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## Guest (Apr 18, 2003)

Hi Thorney,

Remenber when cars had grease nipples and ignition points? We had service stations that would check under the bonnet and give the car a good once over each time the customer came if for fuel. Why? Because the cars of old needed fresh grease for the bearings and the consumable points would eventually wear and cause problems. As cars became more advanced and solid state the need for these stations became less and less. Grease nipples gave way to sealed bearings and points to electronic ignition systems - subsequently the old service stations have gone the way of the dinosaur. Since these applications were no longer needed the world evolved into the new age of self service pumps and microwave pasties.

In the not to distant past the tuning industry was the same way. Cars came off of the line with carburettors and tuners would re-jet them, adjust the timing and possibly throw in a cam(s) and exhaust. This process was not complex by any means but the actual labour was something that most of us dare not attempt. As the evolution continued these functions starting becoming automated in the cars...ignitions systems started being controlled by computers - not inertia and vacuum, camshafts automatically changed centerlines, and exhaust systems became more efficient. Like the service stations themselves these mechanics/tuners started becoming obsolete. The computer could constantly monitor and adjust the settings to a far greater accuracy than any person could, and it could do it hundreds of times every second.

Enter chip tuners. In the early days chip tuning was as about as technical as the early computers themselves. The processors were weak and they had little memory; which wasn't a problem because they were only monitoring one or two things. As the systems became more and more advanced the "tuners" scrambled to keep up only to find that the technology had increased beyond their abilities - the dark age of chip tuning had begun. This period where less than intelligent people were attempting to control systems that were far to complex for their training was when "chips" started getting a bad name. It was true as well, they were crap. They destroyed engines and caused countless problems for the unsuspecting consumer. These "tuning shops" had neither the ability to control nor the knowledge of the system to effectively or safely tune the engine. Just because they could change a map or two and get a few extra HP they were considered to be pioneers of the new computer era.

Even then they needed to disassemble the ECU to change the chip, a process that required special training and special equipment. Like the camshaft swap from before it is something that was too much for most of us.

For our product we have just evolved to the next level. We no longer need to disassemble the car. The work has been done in the code and any 8 year old kid could install the software (some better than most of us!). We have simply made these specialized people obsolete in the installation process. Believe me, behind the scenes there is not a better crew than at Revo and this is proven in the fact that you donâ€™t need a degreed engineer to install it. This is by design! This is EXACTLY why we did it this way!

As for lamda, all I can say is the computer controls this. It has no choice, we put in a requested lamda and the computer adjusts the fuel to meet our specified request. Some cars like .83 lamda, some like .85, some like .87, others like to run near stoich (lamda 1 for the uninitiated) and the new FSI likes 1.55 (that still amazes me!).

One chip tuner/tuning shop says they offer custom rolling road mapping for every car. Do you believe it? If so ask yourself why that same company sends ECUs to other distributors it has. Some don't even have dynos; if they have do they then install the ECU and map it at their location??? If so then why didn't they just map it to begin with. I have looked at lots of code, and code from each tuner is always the same, not close, identical.

I am a huge fan of RR a car after it has been modified, people need to know where their hard earned went. But RRâ€™s are not the end all be all to tuning. Look at dynos, on a linear pull the engine is slowly reved up to redline. Do you drive like that? I donâ€™t know about you guys but my rev counter is rarely static. Do you really think that a fan in front of a car accurately simulates driving at 140? The fact is there are lots of variables and the best way to measure them is under actual conditions.

Wow, and I donâ€™t even post anymore!

-m


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## R6B TT (Feb 25, 2003)

Mitchell, 
So what are the Power figures for Revo on a TT then ? Do you have any data?


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## thorney (May 15, 2002)

Mitchell, hi mate, not seen you since Donington. 

What a long post.......which answered absolutely nothing 

I have said that the way your are adjusting ECU's is the way forward but I still maintain, and nothing you have said to make me feel differently, that if you change an ECU map you NEED to check how the AF is potentially changed and adjust to ensure no engine damage results. You CANNOT do that in a pub car park, I don't care how good the laptop or how many 8 year olds you employ - it can't be done. ;D

You are correct that an RR doesn't accurately reflect driving, but thats the point, a RR reflects the maximum actions of the engine at its stress points and checks the AF at these times.

Unless you can convince me that 100% of the time your ECU map will be guarranteed to not affect the AF for 100% of the cars you change then fine, but you can't and understandably won't and for that reason you CANNOT deny having a RR is essential.

As far as other tuners, yes I have used AMD in the past and will use them in the future because they simply look after you as a customer - period. For 99% of all the cars they chip they do not need to adjust anything (I've no idea of the actual percentage) but on my TTR they did and who's to say if they didn't then my TTR wouldn't now be damaged through incorrect AF? What if your car is in the 1%? If the AF is out then you cannot say here that its good for the engine and will not cause premature wear and likelyhood of failure.

AMD DO adjust their map where the car needs it, I know, I've watched them do it, and I'm sure all the other tuners who offer this do as well. Casting aspersions upon any tuner is not my intention (If I say how good the idea of implementation Revo uses is good I'm in danger of advertising you ) but thats the point. You have a clever way of implementation but it does not address the issue of potential engine damage through incorrect AF - period.

Vlastan, to answer your question, the RR should be used pre chip to check everything is OK, then straight after for the same purpose and then a third time (in practice an extension of the second time) to adjust anything that might need changing, thats how AMD do it and I assume PE and all the others too.

Vlastans warranty issue is important. Lets say you get a OBV port re-flash (REVO in this case) and you suffer an AF problem. You then use your dongle to change it back to standard and drop it into the dealer moaning about major engine damage. The dealer WILL check the ECU and I'm sure REVO are right that their code is undetectable, the question here is (and I'm not saying it will happen) but what if the dealer gets suspicious, sends the ECU back to AG who then get really interested? I'm not saying I know, but a blown engine in standard form is rare, if a dealer gets one in then it will raise some eyebrows. Not that this has any reference to this conversation though as the same applies to a hardwired chip which is impossible to hide. 

Just so we get this straight - All I am saying is that ANY change to an ECU runs the RISK that the AF could be wrong and that this WILL damage your engine. To not use an RR in the event of any chip (be it Revo/AMD/MTM/Jabba etc etc) you WILL take the GAMBLE that everything is fine. Its just not a gamble I am prepared to take with my car.


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## Wak (May 6, 2002)

My eyes hurt! [smiley=rolleyes5.gif]


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## Jac-in-a-Box (Nov 9, 2002)

Thorney,

A clear, concise and cogent post. 

Even for me, with a limited knowledge of such matters, would now consider it foolhardy to skimp on a rolling road test before and after a re-map.... Â£60 for a rolling road run v a Â£3k engine; there's no choice

Wak, Your eye's hurt...my head hurts 

Jackie x


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## badger5 (Apr 19, 2003)

> Thorney,
> 
> A clear, concise and cogent post. Â
> 
> ...


The purpose for the RR is for...... mapping? or just checking parameters during mapping or just seeign what you paid for.

Fueling is closed loop controlled so would control within its ability to supply enough fuel... (limits of fuel pressure regulator and injector sizing permitted etc)

The ME7 ecu is a cleaver bit of kit, which controls to achieve requests. eg you request an A/F of x at a table position y (torque request, MAP, throttle, whatever...) and it should achieve it.

By which ever means the performance code is uploaded, the same methodology would be applied by all competent VAG tuners.

Bill


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## jonah (Aug 17, 2002)

Most people want an RR to see power out puts so they can go to the pub and say my cars so and so BHP.


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## Jac-in-a-Box (Nov 9, 2002)

Hmm! Thanks for that Bill, sorry but I didn't understand any of that... beyond "what is the purpose of the rolling road?"

From what I've learnt from the various posts related to the topic; I would regard it as insurance, also believe it to be integral to the re-map process.
For the sake of a relatively small amount of money spent on a RR check (before and after) I would like the security of knowing;

1. My cars mechanicals are fit to cope with increase and power / torque

2. Following the re-map, pretty much as above - my cars engine is performing within safe prameters, I have not compromised my cars reliability and yes, having now spent a good chunk of money on a re-map - I would like to see what I've paid for!

Of course if I have got it wrong...please, someone tell me 

Notice from your web site you're a REVO dealer  Do you RR your re-maps? What are your opinions on RR testing as part of the re-map process?

Lots of REVO dealers coming on!

Jackie x


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## jonah (Aug 17, 2002)

Audii would say that ur car is set at the safest settings on leaving the factory.
An RR is only as good as the person operating it and as they have a +/- of 10% i wouldnt say they are the most trusted way of altering settings as 10% eitherway is over 25BHP.
I've had a vag com plugged into my car at my dealers and by some other people and i havent had any error codes show up which i would of if the car was outside the perameters.


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## R6B TT (Feb 25, 2003)

RR's are variable and security - I don't personally see them as a penis extension for use in the pub. What is important is checking that mods haven't increased your chance of blowing engines.

I'm sorry but if the REVO 'expert' decides my and 2 other 2001 cars are already chipped, when later evidence proves they aren't, and I don't get an ounce of 'sorry' - he caused 3 people out of about 10 significant hassle - I am not convinced and increasingly unlikely to give them my money even if they have the best map on the planet - PROVE IT!

You don't usually chip more than once - so how do you know if one is better than another ?

The car with the standard ECU that Mitch decided had already been superchipped.


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## jonah (Aug 17, 2002)

I think most people are sceptical because its new and goes against what others say is the done thing.
If Jabba/AMD/Superchips started mapping the way Revo do would we be haveing this conversation? i dont think we would :-/


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## paulb (May 6, 2002)

> I think most people are sceptical because its new and goes against what others say is the done thing.
> If Jabba/AMD/Superchips started mapping the way Revo do would we be haveing this conversation? i dont think we would :-/


Now I have to join in! Yes, we would be having this conversation if Jabba/AmD/MTM were tuning in pub car parks with no proper checks!

The issue is not Revo. They are doing nothing different to the engine side of things. The only difference is in the implementation (no need to take the ECU apart). Some degree of scepticism comes because some people on this forum push Revo as the 'only sensible' option with no awareness at the end of the day of chipping cars. I have no doubts that Mitchell et al are competent. They seemed to be when I spoke to them in their previous job.

However, a 2nd hand TT engine will cost you around Â£5k fitted (for a 225 with VAT). A few simple checks and an extra hundred quid seems worth paying to make that check.

The main advantage of Revo is for the installer and not the customer. Unless the customer wants to behave fraudulently, the fact the ECU needs to be opened is of little consequence. The fact Revo can meet you at a motorway services and dump some code into your car quickly and make Â£500 is their benefit not the customers. The demo licence for 5 hours is also very clever marketing as any car is going to feel significantly better than standard.

The install technique also helps them grow a dealer network. They have 15 signed up in the UK already. This means that the people tuning your car are unlikely to have a deep knowledge of what they are doing (enough to do their job if everything goes well) as they are franchised dealers. This then becomes more like the $uperchips model where, if something does go wrong, they have to keep refering to 'HQ'.

When I decided to remap my TT I decided on the map based on power delivery, not simplest for the installer. Each map feels different and brings in boost at different times. I have driven Revo and it is not my favourite. I found better than the AmD I had after I had bought it but stuck with it at that point. Revo seem to be attracting a new market of people who wouldn't 'chip' their car but view this as somehow different, and therefore the only choice. In fact they are but one of many, each with different merits.

Perhaps what this points to is that Forge is not the best choice of Revo reseller. Revo have agents with Rolling Roads such as Clive Atthowe in Norwich. Clive has a Maha road but I good good readings from my TT.

Each to their own I guess, but remember that any changes to the air/fuel ratio could lead to catastrophic engine failure (not just from Revo of course)

Paul


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## thorney (May 15, 2002)

> I think most people are sceptical because its new and goes against what others say is the done thing.
> If Jabba/AMD/Superchips started mapping the way Revo do would we be haveing this conversation? i dont think we would :-/


Jonah, I'm not criticising Revo at all, I've met Mitch on a few occassions and have always been impressed with his depth of knowledge and enthusiasm for the car. The Revo installation method is excellent. All I'm advocating is that regardless of how it is installed an ECU change needs checking, to not check what has happened is a gamble thats all, and at Â£5k a pop - not a gamble I would undertake.

To anyone who has had their car Revo'd - get it to your local RR guy (assuming he's any good) and have it checked. I'm sure its fine but wouldn't you like to be sure? If its not OK then in all liklehood it shouldn't have done any damage but there is no way of knowing until it happens.

To anyone who is considering a Revo - good choice, it looks like a good prodcut but get it installed at a dealer who uses a RR during install - its the only way to be sure.


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## badger5 (Apr 19, 2003)

> Hmm! Thanks for that Bill, sorry but I didn't understand any of that... beyond "what is the purpose of the rolling road?"
> 
> From what I've learnt from the various posts related to the topic; I would regard it as insurance, also believe it to be integral to the re-map process.
> For the sake of a relatively small amount of money spent on a RR check (before and after) I would like the security of knowing;
> ...


Hello.
I don'y usually run a RR on REVO remaps, as there is'nt anything to adjust.... Fueling is controlled by the ECU within safe limits just like it does when running std program from the factory. On a few occasions when I do check things like induction kits etc, I have used VAG-COM as a real time datalogger and looked at the results in real world driving. RR's are not a great place to fully check real world driving, but VAG-COM lets you datalog the values.

The end result is more than likely the same of most other "chips", but does'nt add any extra worries/risks in desoldering IC's int he ECU. The SPS options may appeal to some as do others Cruise control switching.

SPP is becoming the way of chipping, and diesels already are able to be SPP'd by other tuners with petrols to come in due course.

I would'nt judge REVO's SPP method of upgrading in a -ve way because its able to be done "in a car park", or that its possible to have a "demo" version to try before you buy. Not a gimmick by any means, but it does give a prospective customer the opportunity to try out the performance in his own car, at his own leisure, so he can judge if it is for him or not. I know for a fact, other tuners are benefitting from this trial, as people go for a REVO trial to see fi they like it, and then go buy the same performance from someone else.  (at a lesser price)

I have done may more trials than sales, and I guess that is only to be expected. Its a nice feature tho, none the less.

For the record, my own car, a SEAT IBIZA Cupra 20VT runs a Jabbasport IHI conversion, which I love to bits. As for reliability, only time will tell, but its pushing 320+bhp regularly on Stealths and JAbba's rollers.

regards
Bill


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## Steve_M (May 6, 2002)

A couple of years ago there were a few people who took their cars to AmD to get them chipped - AmD tested the cars first and found problems that could have made a "plug and pray" remap very dangerous, even though there's nothing to adjust.

AmD being what they are were able to rectify one of the faults themselves and another owner had to go back to Audi for, IIRC a new MAF meter. Can't remember who now, Giles maybe one ?? Given the problems Audi have had with MAF meters, coil packs, ECU's, sensors etc there must be a number of TT's running around with faults that are not going to cause a problem for 225bhp, even thought he fault may be reducing power to 200bhp or whatever, but if you change the program and ask it to produce 270bhp you could be asking for an expensive visit to Audi.


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

If your car went through the 5 hour Revo trial and nothing happened, can we assume that everything will be fine with a permanent installation?


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## thorney (May 15, 2002)

> If your car went through the 5 hour Revo trial and nothing happened, can we assume that everything will be fine with a permanent installation?


'fraid not Nick, whilst its probable that you'll have no problem whatsoever there is no real way of telling unless the AF is accurately measured. Only real giveaway without measurement is detting (detonation) which you'll hear but the anti-knock sensor should retard the egnition if that occures and its possible that by that time the damage has already been done.

Don't let this put you off the Revo though, just get it installed at a decent RR place, must be one near you which instlls Revo etc?


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## badger5 (Apr 19, 2003)

> 'fraid not Nick, whilst its probable that you'll have no problem whatsoever there is no real way of telling unless the AF is accurately measured. Only real giveaway without measurement is detting (detonation) which you'll hear but the anti-knock sensor should retard the egnition if that occures and its possible that by that time the damage has already been done.
> 
> Don't let this put you off the Revo though, just get it installed at a decent RR place, must be one near you which instlls Revo etc?


The knock sensosrs "prevent" damage... They are very sensitive things and react quickly. You do loose power in chunks tho as the ignition is wound back in fairly lage steps to prevent further detonation.

Logging VAG-COM is a pretty good way of checking the engines health before and after an upgrade, so things like MAF can be seen and logged. The same parameters as would be logged on a RR.

The first thing I personally do before uploading REVO to anyones car is check it for fault codes first. You will be surprised how many people are driving around with a whole bunch of fault codes unknowingly. (DV's, MAF's being common ones)

Its obvious people are going to be concerned over an upgrade as its your Â£Â£ car after all. If someone was really that worried, then upgrading is probably not for them as no matter what you said, they would always be concerned.

I have'nt heard of many (if any) 20VT engines let loose due to this first level upgrade (software not hardware) I am aware of some really tweeked 20VT motors which have let loose tho, but these are puhing way higher power, very high boost, and a.n.other make turbos etc.. (USA in particular)

I love the 20VT engine... its superb and so very tunable. Its weakness is in some of the sensors VAG choose to fit (MAF's, DV's, coil packs etc)

regards
bill


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## thorney (May 15, 2002)

Bill, I guess the difference in opinion on this rests upon the issue of RR vs VAGCOM. Whilst VAGCOM can be used to pick up a lot of fault codes and issues etc (and is essential to check before any work) where we don't agree is the value of the additional benefit from proper RR installs - IMO its essential.

You can't deny the use of a RR is a valuable check, however from a customers perseptive I don't care how much it costs to install a RR, all I care about is my engine, and if by using a RR gains me extra cover that nothing should go wrong then I'll vote with my cheque book and only use a tuner who uses one.


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## badger5 (Apr 19, 2003)

> Bill, I guess the difference in opinion on this rests upon the issue of RR vs VAGCOM. Whilst VAGCOM can be used to pick up a lot of fault codes and issues etc (and is essential to check before any work) where we don't agree is the value of the additional benefit from proper RR installs - IMO its essential.
> 
> You can't deny the use of a RR is a valuable check, however from a customers perseptive I don't care how much it costs to install a RR, all I care about is my engine, and if by using a RR gains me extra cover that nothing should go wrong then I'll vote with my cheque book and only use a tuner who uses one.


VAG-COM as I guess you already know does a lot more than display fault codes... I used that as an example of how many people "already" drive around with faults, in standard trim... It just the way it is sadly.

Datalogging on the road is a real world measurement compared to being strapped down on a RR, with fans blowing as best they can to try and keep things cool. The RR is a great tool, no question, so long as the operator is both competant with the RR and competant with the VAG car/ecu he is using. They do cost mucho Â£Â£ however, nice as they are.

It takes more than a tuner with a RR to actually make decent upgrades tho..
Jabbasport are tops in my opinion for bespoke mapping, using their dyno for checking, and AmD are also in there doing what they have been doing for many years now.

If a one for all chip (whoevers) was going to manifest itself in engine troubles, then I would expect to have seen it posted on every 20Vt forum. I have not seen this though.

For you though, with your preference for RR mapping on your car, you have but 2 choices I would guess. Jabbasport or AmD.

regards
Bill


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## Guest (Apr 20, 2003)

As everyone is on the subject of rolling roads....

Does anybody know of a Revo fitter near(ish) Oxford that also has a rolling road?

I had the revo trial the other week and must say I loved the change in the car! However, I am now slightly nervous of blindly having my baby revoed :-/

Cheers


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## Steve_M (May 6, 2002)

MudStuffin, I think AmD (Bicester) are near Oxford - is that right ?? They'll do a test for you, and probably fix anything they find too, probably quicker than Audi can


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## Steve_M (May 6, 2002)

There's a thread on Audi Sport http://www.audi-sport.net/ubbthread...05&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=5&vc=1 which demonstrates exactly why a rolling road test is a good idea if you're tinkering with your car.


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## thorney (May 15, 2002)

> VAG-COM as I guess you already know does a lot more than display fault codes... I used that as an example of how many people "already" drive around with faults, in standard trim... Â It just the way it is sadly.
> 
> Datalogging on the road is a real world measurement compared to being strapped down on a RR, with fans blowing as best they can to try and keep things cool. Â The RR is a great tool, no question, so long as the operator is both competant with the RR and competant with the VAG car/ecu he is using. Â They do cost mucho Â£Â£ however, nice as they are.
> 
> ...


Oh sure you can do quite a lot with a VAGCOM however you can't remap the AF which is my point. And define 'real world driving' - traffic, A roads, motorways? A RR is a compromise to generate extemes - if the chip works correctly under those parameters then in real world use it should be fine.


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## Guest (Apr 21, 2003)

Cheers Steve, will check it out tomorrow, it's only just down the road 

I wonder if an amd reseller will mind doing the rolling road stuff for the revo... I guess they won't care as long as they get the right Â£Â£Â£

I guess i might even be tempted with the amd chipping instead...


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## badger5 (Apr 19, 2003)

> Oh sure you can do quite a lot with a VAGCOM however you can't remap the AF which is my point. And define 'real world driving' - traffic, A roads, motorways? A RR is a compromise to generate extemes - if the chip works correctly under those parameters then in real world use it should be fine.


Your engine runs with closed loop lambda control... now. It continues to run closed loop afterwards when chipped. ie A/F is part of the lambda control. If it works as std it should work when chipped, within the limits of injector duty cycle and fuel pressure.

The extremes a RR will generate is induction temperatures, which will likely never be reached or sustained in real world driving.

No point in chewing the fat on this any more with you.. You have your mind made up.

So you have the choice of Jabbasport or AmD now... as either will be good for your bespoke mapping on your car. The results will be well worth having.. and should transform the TT into the car Audi should have made it from day #1. Nice little pocket rocket.

Bill


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## R6B TT (Feb 25, 2003)

I have absolutely no issue with the Forge or Revo technology - when I got it installed by Fontain it was fantastic. I agree with TThorney though that RR is the best route. I've tuned cars a while ago and the world has changed.


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## thorney (May 15, 2002)

> Your engine runs with closed loop lambda control... now. Â It continues to run closed loop afterwards when chipped. Â ie A/F is part of the lambda control. Â If it works as std it should work when chipped, within the limits of injector duty cycle and fuel pressure.
> 
> The extremes a RR will generate is induction temperatures, which will likely never be reached or sustained in real world driving.
> 
> ...


Bill, its not a question of 'having made my mind up' more of a case that you've said nothing that leads me to believe that a RR is not necessary ??? However, I enjoyed our conversation. 

Anyhoo, I've got the modded TT t shirt, I have an RS4 now ;D


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## Guest (Apr 22, 2003)

Hi Thorney, it has been a while...they don't let me out of my cage very much so no track days for me in the near future.

Ok, I agree with much of your argument but I must ask...the day you bought your car did you take it to the dyno to check A/F? Did the guys at Ingolstadt or Neckarsulm ever put your car on the rollers to check it? Why doesn't the factory put every car on the rollers? Because the good engineers at Audi agree with us on this point, the computer is more than capable of controlling the fuel tables. And no matter what disinformation and marketing others use to catch up with us it won't change the fact that we do it the same way Audi does it. I would really like for you to make a visit some day. I would love to show you some of the fuel data from the RS4, some on my software, some on others and some on stock. I believe I can change your mind (a very tall task I agree)! Seeing is believing right  Seriously, I am extending you an open invitation to come and witness what we are doing and you can data log to your hearts content. As a matter of fact, letâ€™s plug in both RS4's and data log, I will put my fuel graph over your fuel graph and I bet you will be surprised. I have seen your fuel graph before! In front of all who read I am putting my cards on the table...interested?

-m


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## thorney (May 15, 2002)

> Hi Thorney, it has been a while...they don't let me out of my cage very much so no track days for me in the near future.
> 
> Ok, I agree with much of your argument but I must ask...the day you bought your car did you take it to the dyno to check A/F? Â Did the guys at Ingolstadt or Neckarsulm ever put your car on the rollers to check it? Â Why doesn't the factory put every car on the rollers? Â Because the good engineers at Audi agree with us on this point, the computer is more than capable of controlling the fuel tables. Â And no matter what disinformation and marketing others use to catch up with us it won't change the fact that we do it the same way Audi does it. Â I would really like for you to make a visit some day. Â I would love to show you some of the fuel data from the RS4, some on my software, some on others and some on stock. Â I believe I can change your mind (a very tall task I agree)! Â Seeing is believing right  Â Seriously, I am extending you an open invitation to come and witness what we are doing and you can data log to your hearts content. Â As a matter of fact, letâ€™s plug in both RS4's and data log, I will put my fuel graph over your fuel graph and I bet you will be surprised. Â I have seen your fuel graph before! Â In front of all who read I am putting my cards on the table...interested?
> 
> -m


The fact that Audi don't RR their cars isn't really relevant on the basis that its the mods we're considering not operation inside of the design parameters.

I did wonder what was happening.....we sort of spoke about what you were doing on the RS4 and the last thing I said was that I wouldn't be happy unless it was installed and tested at an RR and I heard nothing more ??? PhilT then told me he was doing the development work for you instead in return for a free upgrade.

I've spent the last 4 months researching which chip to install in my RS4 and have decided on the Sportec one mainly because its long history in RS4's and as its booked in for the work next week I guess that'll change what my car does. I'm still keen to know more though.

I'm glad you don't think I'm anti Revo, cos I'm not (I think Bill thinks thats the case ) but I'm still of the mind that any changes to ECU cannot be accurately measured without a RR, however thats not to mean the Revo product isn't great, I just don't think a pub car park is the place to flog it  ;D

Glad to hear you're back at work as well


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## Guest (Apr 22, 2003)

I'm with Thorney.

Have a look at the post that Steve_M refers to, it details an S3 that had a revo upgrade, no rr run after.. The owner notices some pinking/det ( detonation ) - this can be damaging to an engine, at best stresses it at worst will destroy it. This would of undoubtedly be noticed on a rolling road.

So, on that basis put your hand up if you know what det sounds like... ? not many I'd bet - and why should you, the ECU sghould be sorting out all this stuff, you've got enough worries looking for idiots cutting you up, kids playing on the side of the road, the cyclist who is weaving about the road in front of you, the guy that *almost* ran that red light etc...

When a generic solution ( i.e. not just revo ) is installed you rely on everything being 100%, in the case of the S3 above it wasn't, hence the problem. I believe Mitchell visited the car in question and correctly diagnosed a faulty MAF. With a new MAF on the car performs superbly according to the owner.

Lets pause for a minute, what would of happened if the S3 owner didn't know what det sounded like, what would of happened ? We can't say - but a damaged engine is a possibility.

The ECU is only as clever as the signals that its sent from the sensors, if one of these give a dodgy signal the engine management light *should* come on, but this isnt always the case! Especially with MAFs. 
Knock sensors can play havoc as well, I've seen these pack up completely and let a car det, replaced knock sensor car now fine. They go the opposite way too, becoming hyper sensitive, picking up engine noise and retarding the ignition.

The bottom line is that despite engine management systems being far more advanced than anyone could of imagined 15 years ago they are still prone to faults which can cause problems that might not be detectable without diagnostic gear - to then rely on a possibly faulty component to optimise output without any checking is IMHO dangerous.

Generic solutions can work very well, but make sure its safe - this is the reason for having a rr run not to see what you got for your money or to brag about your car down the pub!!


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## badger5 (Apr 19, 2003)

> I'm glad you don't think I'm anti Revo, cos I'm not (I think Bill thinks thats the case )


LOL
No I don't... no worries  But the guyswho map with RR's have done a good sales job. 

Hey, I can talk... I deal REVO but have Jabbasport IHI on my Ibiza...(developed on their RR - but it is special not just a chip upgrade. - Runs S3 ecu these days, so its part Audi now )

regards
Bill


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## badger5 (Apr 19, 2003)

> I'm with Thorney.
> 
> Have a look at the post that Steve_M refers to, it details an S3 that had a revo upgrade, no rr run after.. The owner notices some pinking/det ( detonation ) - this can be damaging to an engine, at best stresses it at worst will destroy it. This would of undoubtedly be noticed on a rolling road.
> 
> ...


Just wondering tho.. this S3 example situation, if it had developed some while after the upgrade what then? MAF's fail regularly (thanks VAG!) and in due course after an upgarde (be it one done on a RR or plug and play) it manifest itself.... Who do you think automatically gets the blame.. The tuner.. Brand x,y,z whoever it might have been. The RR result & test is as good as on the day on which its done. On that day, it was set and performed (x) well. Same as for stock cars.. they run well 99% of the time until one of VAG's many little gremlins appears 

RR vs a good test drive with VAG-COM or other datalogging is going to be pretty much the same end result I would have thought, aside form the power/torque readings you would get off the RR (and block #120 from VAG-COM) - Fault code checking being essential for any tuner prior to modding anything. (you just know you will get the blame for creating it if you don't spot it prior to working on the car)

regards
bill


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## thorney (May 15, 2002)

> RR vs a good test drive with VAG-COM or other datalogging is going to be pretty much the same end result I would have thought


Right, we've hit the nail on the head - this is my point - it's not. A RR is an extreme test combining max runs and hard acceleration up through the gears designed to show up any issues in a wide range of hard use.

A good road test - what is this? A quick cruise round the block, a 20 minute drive on the M25? - hardly an opportunity to use the car at its full potential and discover any problems. 

I agree that ambient temperatures in RR's are not ideal even with big fans on the go but I can't remember the last time I drove on the road where I really used the car as I would on a track for example, especially in the SE and when Revo install on a car in a pub car park its a quick 10 min drive round the block - you can't tell me this is a good measure?


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## Steve_M (May 6, 2002)

There are also degrees of pre-ignition or pinking, you can only hear it when it's really bad, a modified car running high-ish boost levels could easily pink enough to cause damage over medium term and you'd never know it.

It's much easier to hear pinking on a RR too rather than on the public roads, too much wind and tyre noise on the roads.

Bill, I think that chap with the pinking problem only heard it after having the chip upgrade, it wasn't something that developed some time after having the upgrade.


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## Love_iTT (Aug 18, 2002)

I am now in the market for a remap and have decided to go either Jabba or Amd once I have found out what my ECU number is. When it comes to the technicalities as deep as this thread has gone, then I'll be quite honest, I get totaly lost. When I eventualy do get this done I will assume that I am paying my money over to a company who know what they are doing and when I drive away I do not want to be thinking to myself "is my engine safe" And yes, I do want to know the power increase, not so that I can brag about it down the pub but for my own interest, I've paid the money - I want to know.

There has been a wealth of discusions on this forum about Revo, more so than any other remap or rechip company and yet I cannot remember anywhere a set of performance figures after the upgrade. I'm not talking about "oh well you should get XXX BHP and YYY torque" I'm talking actual figures with graphs. Now if I've missed these then I apologise and please direct me to the thread.

This may sound anti Revo, its not. I believe the Revo upgrade is a great idea, its just the way the upgrade is carried out. If the Revo upgrade was done in what I term a professional manner ie. rolling road first, upgrade second then a second rolling road after the upgrade to confirm all is well, complete with a set of figures then I would defo be interested, but to go along as Thorney says to a pub car park and have someone upgrade the ECU of my TTR and 15 -20 minutes later come away with a very quick car and nothing else does not inspire me with confidence.

Consider this. A well known company says that they can service your TT in the car park of the Red Lion, it will only take them half an hour and there prices are pretty good in comparison to other garages, OK, you have it done and they give you an invoice for the price quoted but with no details of what they've done, wouldn't you be thinking, have they used the correct oil? did they check the timing, did they check.... and so on. I know I would, well surely its the same.

Oh well, each to their own I guess - but not for me.

Graham


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## nutts (May 8, 2002)

Graham

I'm next at Jabba on the 19th May if you're around ;D


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## Love_iTT (Aug 18, 2002)

Nutts, do they know your ECU number, have you checked it out with them that they can do you a remap? I still can't get the friggin black plastic bit off underneath the windscrean so I can read the ECU number   Tried for ages on Monday, I couldn't get it to shift.

Graham


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## nutts (May 8, 2002)

Who says I'm going for a remap : : ;D

Anyway, Michael has all my details   ;D ;D


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## Guest (Apr 24, 2003)

> Just wondering tho.. this S3 example situation, if it had developed some while after the upgrade what then? Â MAF's fail regularly (thanks VAG!) and in due course after an upgarde (be it one done on a RR or plug and play) it manifest itself.... Who do you think automatically gets the blame.. The tuner.. Brand x,y,z whoever it might have been. Â The RR result & test is as good as on the day on which its done. Â On that day, it was set and performed (x) well. Â Same as for stock cars.. they run well 99% of the time until one of VAG's many little gremlins appears
> 
> RR vs a good test drive with VAG-COM or other datalogging is going to be pretty much the same end result I would have thought, aside form the power/torque readings you would get off the RR (and block #120 from VAG-COM) - Fault code checking being essential for any tuner prior to modding anything. (you just know you will get the blame for creating it if you don't spot it prior to working on the car)
> 
> ...


Absolutely - Revo was not to blame in any way for the knackered MAF but the point is the fault showed up immediately after Revo was installed, because Revo is relying on it being 100%, it wasn't - the stock program didn't rely on everything being in top top shape. 
No doubt if some datalogging had been done before Revo was installed the problem would of been picked up - but no logging was done, leaving the car in a potentially dangerous state post chipping.

You are correct in saying that 6 months down the road you could have a problem with the MAF in exactly the same way.


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## badger5 (Apr 19, 2003)

Oh well.... 
You pays your money and you take syour choice after all, BUT the REVO option is no lesser a product than anyone elses, for lack of RR req'd to upgrade your car.

Simple answer is how many people have had problems with their chip, whoevers chip? - post a poll up maybe and see if there's any correlation? If any?

Do you want your ECU opened and soldering done? Does this concern you? or do you feel better if nothing is mechanically/electrically altered? These are also things to consider when it comes to choosing you upgrade path.

If you were fixed on the path of RR for your motor, then your choice is greatly reduced... Jabbasport or AmD.
If you were wanting a RR then you would need to locate a REVO dealer with a 4wd dyno. The software would remain SPP tho... 

Enjoy your upgrades... by whichever route you choose.

regards
Bill


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## Jac-in-a-Box (Nov 9, 2002)

What a thread! A whole load of information for those considering any sort re-map.
As in the post by Love_iTT, I also would profess to understand little of the technical content, however it has given me some good pointers in what to look for in whatever company I select to carry out the modification.

The requirement to check the car on a rolling road, before and after the modification, has been made abundantly clear; the relatively small cost of this in relation to the cost of a replacement engine has got to be money well spent. 
Equally important is the establishment of a relationship with the tuner. I have opted for the APR re-map; before doing this considerable time was spent in checking out the reputation of the establishment and confirming the satisfaction of his previous customers. The APR agent I am using had even offered to demonstrate the ability of his rolling road (MAHA)..and his expertise as the operator, because I had raised my concerns that he would not be able to properly check my car due to possible compatability issues between the RR and the cars Haldex system. 
It took 2 attempts to achieve a smooth 4 wheel drive run, but I left feeling 100% comfortable with his technical expertise, his premises and attitude.

While the majority of forum members would seem to be geographically better placed than I am (Scotland) to access the variety of tuning options that are available, another consideration for me has to be a tuner that is not based in the South of the country, it would be too difficult to get support if I needed it. 
Though this isn't my only consideration in opting for the APR route; had I lived within easy travelling distance of all the other established tuners I would still opt for the APR remap simply for the other options that are offered - cruise control operation of programme switching and enhanced security for example.

The concept of "serial port programming" is very attractive - no need to physically touch the ECU to enable the new code to be inserted, it must also be advantageous in terms of future reliability. What perhaps is not so attractive is the manner in which this can be done. It may be convenient for the tuner to do it at my home or work, but without the security of having a RR test before and after the work...well it's not for me; it's a "peace of mind thing"

While I am not going to get into the REVO thing (I have already had a mildly offensive response from a "respected" tuner for offering my opinion to another forum member - seems to think I'm spreading "crap"!
http://www.********.co.uk/ttforumbbs/Ya ... 1050622594 )
There appears to have been a number of requests for REVO to answer sensible questions and provide power figures for a REVO upgrade, sadly there appears to be no response beyond putting up a spirited defence for NOT having to RR test.

For anyone considering a chip upgrade this thread offers a wealth of information, the cautionary comments are well worth considering.

Jackie x


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## Jac-in-a-Box (Nov 9, 2002)

> If you were fixed on the path of RR for your motor, then your choice is greatly reduced... Jabbasport or AmD.


Posted by: badger5 Today at 10:55pm

Untrue! APR, competent 4wd RR owner/operator..Scotland

Come on Bill what are the torque/ power gains for a REVO upgrade? You have a captive audience...me at least 

Jackie x


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## pgtt (May 7, 2002)

Me to  :


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## thorney (May 15, 2002)

JackiesTT has a point, as well as their reputation one reason I went with AMD is that they're 30mins from me so it does make a difference in chosing a tuner.

After sales is the most important thing, at the end of the day if something goes wrong you want to make sure the tuner will be helpful and accessible.


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## nutts (May 8, 2002)

> ......one reason I went with AMD is that they're *30mins* from me so......


ummm 60 miles in 30minutes : : : :


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## thorney (May 15, 2002)

> ummm 60 miles in 30minutes : : : :


hehe ;D


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

> ummm 60 miles in 30minutes : : : :


John has a seriously fast car...not a poxy TT!!  ;D


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## AL_B (Jun 19, 2002)

Very interesting reading indeed. Totally agree with the comments about RR sessions being necessary.

A friend of mine recently had his standard Golf 1.8T on the rollers at Stealth (it was the UKMKIV's rolling road day, which Bill also attended). My friend mentioned that there was sometimes loss of boost on the road, a slight hesitation. The run on the rollers, with VAG-COM (or similar) fitted, showed that although the car was producing 166bhp there were error codes being recorded. The advice was take it to VW.

Despite this, my friend still decided to go for the 5 hour REVO trial. Although the increase in performance was noticeable on the way home, running a higher performance program seemed to amplify the previously slight hesitation. E.g. 5th gear 80mph, the car would start to pull, but it was lumpy, not smooth.

Diagnosis at the VW dealer (after the car had reverted back to normal) showed that the one of the coil-packs was on the way out.

I think this is a prime example of how a RR session helped to show that there was a problem in the first place, and also how a performance program could "amplify" an existing problem with a car.

Personally, I like the SPP tuning method, but not too keen on the generic re-map for all. I would like to see a combination of SPP, adjustable re-map (by the tuner), RR before & after.

Also, I'm amazed that people have been purchasing a product that they have not seen official performance figures for.

Why have REVO not done "official" RR sessions for each re-map they sell? How do you really know that your car is making 265bhp (for example)? It may only be producing 240bhp. (Yes, I know RR's aren't 100% accurate, but at least it gives you an indication of what the car is producing)

Regards

AL


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## coupe-sport (May 7, 2002)

> adjustable re-map (by the tuner),


Which tuners are doing this then ?


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## AL_B (Jun 19, 2002)

Knew someone would be picky.

You know what I mean, as mentioned in previous posts, its alledged that some tuners fine-tune/adjust, call it what you will, the re-map.

AL


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## thorney (May 15, 2002)

> Which tuners are doing this then ?


AMD do (hence why I've chosen them for the Sportec chip on mine) and I think someone else mentioned jabba do as well?


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## AL_B (Jun 19, 2002)

Thankyou Thorney. I couldn't really say what you have, as I have no experience or anything to back it up.

You obviously have experience. 

AL


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## coupe-sport (May 7, 2002)

I thought AmD would get mentioned. I thought it was a generic chip - when they did my TT all i got was an off the shelf chip not a custom map.

If the car had sat on the rollers running an emulator with some on the fly adjustments to the mapping then it would have been a custom map.

From what i can see, only Jabba do a full custom map - i stand to be corrected though


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## thorney (May 15, 2002)

> I thought AmD would get mentioned. I thought it was a generic chip - when they did my TT all i got was an off the shelf chip not a custom map.
> 
> If the car had sat on the rollers running an emulator with some on the fly adjustments to the mapping then it would have been a custom map.
> 
> From what i can see, only Jabba do a full custom map - i stand to be corrected though Â


Once again :  What AMD do is put their standard chip onto your car, run it on the RR to see if all is fine, if so then it goes out with the standard chip. As cars are different (especially with dif mods) in all liklehood there will be subtle changes needed to the map which AMD do on the RR. Is it theirs a standard chip? Yes. Is it customised for the car? Yes.

With the Sportec chip the same occures.


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## jonno (May 7, 2002)

> A friend of mine recently had his standard Golf 1.8T ......
> 
> The run on the rollers, with VAG-COM (or similar) fitted, showed that although the car was producing 166bhp there were error codes being recorded. The advice was take it to VW.


Al, its a good example,
Small point but isn't the 1.8T golf now pushing out 180bhp?, if a CP was failing then maybe that was why it was down (assuming it's not a 150)


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

> Al, its a good example,
> Small point but isn't the 1.8T golf now pushing out 180bhp?, if a CP was failing then maybe that was why it was down (assuming it's not a 150)


Could Audi then claim that the RR is not an accurate measurement of the bhp output?


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## coupe-sport (May 7, 2002)

Thankyou Thorney ;D - Mine must have been fine as it went on the rollers at the start and end.

Good remap tho


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## gcp (Aug 8, 2002)

> Once again Â :  What AMD do is put their standard chip onto your car, run it on the RR to see if all is fine, if so then it goes out with the standard chip. As cars are different (especially with dif mods) in all liklehood there will be subtle changes needed to the map which AMD do on the RR. Is it theirs a standard chip? Yes. Is it customised for the car? Yes.
> 
> With the Sportec chip the same occures.


This is exactly the same as Russell/Mitchell did when installing REVO in my car at Interpro. May not have been necessary if I had been using SU or Optimax but I wasn't (then). Small extra to pay to ensure all is well.


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## AL_B (Jun 19, 2002)

Jonno, Vlasten,

My friends car (alias Drystone on Audi-sport.net) is officially a 150bhp 1.8T with the DBW throttle. The output at the flywheel (which is calculated in some way) was estimated to be 166bhp. Not sure of hand what the power was at the wheels. But this is a totally standard Golf.

The guy at Stealth, forgot his name, did say that DBW versions of the basic 1.8T engine do tend to output more power than the older cable throttled cars.

Needless to say, Drystone was chuffed to bits. He was also impressed with the REVO demo, and I think its just a matter of time before he gets it done.

AL


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## thorney (May 15, 2002)

> This is exactly the same as Russell/Mitchell did when installing REVO in my car at Interpro. May not have been necessary if I had been using SU or Optimax but I wasn't (then). Small extra to pay to ensure all is well.


Which is exactly what I'm advocating ;D


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## PhilJ (Sep 2, 2002)

If chipping / remap can effect the AF mixture, then what about fitting an induction kit or sports exhaust? If so, would a RR be recommended after fitting to make sure everything is ok?

How do generic chips / Revo accommodate modifications such as induction kits and different exhausts?

Cheers

Phil.


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## thorney (May 15, 2002)

> If chipping / remap can effect the AF mixture, then what about fitting an induction kit or sports exhaust? Â If so, would a RR be recommended after fitting to make sure everything is ok? Â
> 
> How do generic chips / Revo accommodate modifications such as induction kits and different exhausts?
> 
> ...


THis is pretty much waht we've been talking about, yes a RR would sort any issues here. (Assuming half decent operator).


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## AL_B (Jun 19, 2002)

> How do generic chips / Revo accommodate modifications such as induction kits and different exhausts?


That was going to be my next question too. Do any of the tuners recommend going back to them after fitting an induction kit or exhaust, for the map to be tweaked?

AL


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## badger5 (Apr 19, 2003)

> Posted by: badger5 Â Today at 10:55pm
> 
> Untrue! APR, competent 4wd RR owner/operator..Scotland
> 
> ...


In a word (or 2) I dunno.
Have you checked the forge website for this?
I know the Leon-R (210 motor std) has been dyno'd to 270+bhp and 280+lb/ft torque if thats a clue.
Very similar layout to the 225 motors.

regards
Bill


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

> In a word (or 2) I dunno.
> Have you checked the forge website for this?
> I know the Leon-R (210 motor std) has been dyno'd to 270+bhp and 280+lb/ft torque if thats a clue.
> Very similar layout to the 225 motors.
> ...


All will be revealed the 8th June at Interpro!


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## Jae (May 6, 2002)

Back and in glorious colour 

Jae


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## thorney (May 15, 2002)

> test


Don't you mean RR'd? ;D


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## Guest (Apr 25, 2003)

STT test - pls ignore


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## Jae (May 6, 2002)

Rocking Road


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## badger5 (Apr 19, 2003)

> That was going to be my next question too. Do any of the tuners recommend going back to them after fitting an induction kit or exhaust, for the map to be tweaked?
> 
> AL


The Bosch ECU has "Adaption" which allows self adjustment within window limits... Usually bolt on goodies like exhaust, and air filter/induction kits are readily compensated within these windows.
Typically, fit an induction kit, and it "feels" better according to the customer after a few miles have passed. This is the ECU relearning the alterations etc...
Cleaver old ECU the Bosch  Very advanced..

(shame VAG choose to mate it to other components which let it down : )

regards
Bill


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## jonno (May 7, 2002)

ok
This has been an excellent and enlightening thread, and I may be wrong here so please correct me (  )
but: do we have a single Std 225 TT with b4 and after REVO plots done on a 4wd RR which we can safely say is reasonably accurate?

b4 you all start I know that part of Clive's objective in organising the RR session is to compare REVO-ed TTs.

thanks


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## jonah (Aug 17, 2002)

> ok
> This has been an excellent and enlightening thread, and I may be wrong here so please correct me ( Â  )
> but: Â do we have a single Std 225 TT with b4 and after REVO plots done on a 4wd RR which we can safely say is Â reasonably accurate?
> 
> ...


NOT JUST REVO but AMD.Jabba,Spperchips,ABT (hopefully),Revo, MTM oh and standard unchipped TT the more the better


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## gcp (Aug 8, 2002)

> ok
> This has been an excellent and enlightening thread, and I may be wrong here so please correct me ( Â  )
> but: Â do we have a single Std 225 TT with b4 and after REVO plots done on a 4wd RR which we can safely say is Â reasonably accurate?
> 
> ...


If you forget the Milltek then yes, if not no


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## daveuni (Aug 5, 2002)

> If you forget the Milltek then yes, if not no


So what are the figures then...... ??? ??? ??? ???


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## mrfish (May 8, 2002)

Would it be possible to run the tests 'blind' by not showing the operator the inside of the engine bay and not telling him/her what chip is plugged in before doing the run? Just a thought, given previous comments about unscrupulous operators producing the 'right' bhp readings before and after charging you lots of money for something.

Andrew


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

You cannot tell which chip it is from the engine bay, unless you open the ECU.

An experience 1.8T tuner will be able to tell you which chip it is by the RR results!

You can't always do a RR without giving them access to the engine bay as they normally measure the amount of boost and need to plug in the gauge.


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