# TTOC Events



## TT Owners Club

After discussion with the forum owner TTOC events can be found in the TTOC section or alternatively for existing members on the TTOC Forum

*http://www.ttoc.co.uk/members*


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## Lollypop86

(facepalm) TTF admin should be ashamed of themselves for going to this extent.......

J
xx


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## Duggy

Surely, AITP is a public event, not a TTOC organised event! Without this forum, there would be little or no TT's to support it? I have been on this forum longer than most and feel with this sort of pettiness the TTOC will disappear, which is a sad thing. I would like some sort of reply to this, as it's already ruined the event and future events for me

John


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## Ikon66

Lollypop86 said:


> (facepalm) TTF admin should be ashamed of themselves for going to this extent.......
> 
> J
> xx


Maybe you don't know the full facts!!!! :roll:


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## Duggy

Ikon66 said:


> Lollypop86 said:
> 
> 
> 
> (facepalm) TTF admin should be ashamed of themselves for going to this extent.......
> 
> J
> xx
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe you don't know the full facts!!!! :roll:
Click to expand...

Maybe some one can enlighten us...

John


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## TT Owners Club

Duggy said:


> Surely, AITP is a public event, not a TTOC organised event! Without this forum, there would be little or no TT's to support it? I have been on this forum longer than most and feel with this sort of pettiness the TTOC will disappear, which is a sad thing. I would like some sort of reply to this, as it's already ruined the event and future events for me
> 
> John


Sorry I don't understand , why would anyone expect to attend a club stand at a major event without belonging to the club. There is an opportunity to attend without being on a club stand. We take this stance at four events a year . At every other event non members are more than welcome


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## Lollypop86

Ikon66 said:


> Lollypop86 said:
> 
> 
> 
> (facepalm) TTF admin should be ashamed of themselves for going to this extent.......
> 
> J
> xx
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe you don't know the full facts!!!! :roll:
Click to expand...

Strangely enough Ikon I spoke to John about this before not long after I started when I asked him what the issue was with TTF and TTOC, since then I've spoken to others so heard both sides of the story, and from recent events including this and various other troll posts about forum members being able to go on a TT Owners Club stand I've made my own reasonable assumptions with actions since saturday having confirmed everything 

J
xx


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## Duggy

TT Owners Club said:


> Duggy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Surely, AITP is a public event, not a TTOC organised event! Without this forum, there would be little or no TT's to support it? I have been on this forum longer than most and feel with this sort of pettiness the TTOC will disappear, which is a sad thing. I would like some sort of reply to this, as it's already ruined the event and future events for me
> 
> John
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry I don't understand , why would anyone expect to attend a club stand at a major event without belonging to the club. There is an opportunity to attend without being on a club stand. We take this stance at four events a year . At every other event non members are more than welcome
Click to expand...

Firstly, who am I talking to?

Secondly, I am a member!

Thirdly, my gripe is with why a thread started on a public forum is now being moved off it? The forum has always been a place to communicate with like minded individuals?

I think you have totally missed the point...

John


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## Lollypop86

Duggy said:


> TT Owners Club said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry I don't understand , why would anyone expect to attend a club stand at a major event without belonging to the club. There is an opportunity to attend without being on a club stand. We take this stance at four events a year . At every other event non members are more than welcome
> 
> 
> 
> Firstly, who am I talking to?
> 
> Secondly, I am a member!
> 
> Thirdly, my gripe is with why a thread started on a public forum is now being moved off it? The forum has always been a place to communicate with like minded individuals?
> 
> I think you have totally missed the point...
> 
> John
Click to expand...

John your right the forum WAS a place to do that, but since Friday/Saturday when the TTF (John-H who doesnt own TTF) put the new forum rule up about events being for anyone and not "private events" the TTOC are unable to post their club stand events in the events section, ADI TTOC stand thread was locked and removed by John-H, the gripe has not come from TTOC it has come from John-H who does not agree with TTOC being within their right to say that when they post a TTOC stand that it is for TTOC members only, however, Inters was a TTOC stand and there was atleast 1 person who was not a TTOC member but there was no big deal with them being on the stand, but for popular events such as ADI, EvenTT and AITP TTOC members only is more than reasonable when they are popular events with about 30 spaces (not including EvenTT) being TTOC members, they have not said that non members can no attend (apart from EvenTT which is my understanding) just that they can not come onto the TTOC club stand as non members.........John-H although he is a TTOC member does not agree with that

J
xx


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## neilc

As a forum sponsor I can tell you all that John does not have vertical scopes permission to lock TTOC threads and has not asked them for guidance at all on this matter and is acting entirely on his own. In fact the forum are 100% committed to ensuring the TTOC and it's 900 members continue to use the TTF. After all it's a business and a business needs exposure to make money.

In fact the forum owners were horrified to think that a club with 900 paying members cannot organise it's own member only events. After all a club stand means exactly that ! Paid club members can come on the stand as you would expect what is hard to understand about this ?

Talking as a sponsor and not as a TTOC committee member I am both angry and horrified by Johns actions to inflame this situation because as a sponsor it is making my marketing less effective and potentially removing vital TT enthusiasts from sections of the TTF.

I can assure you that no professional business would want to be associated with a forum policed in this manner. I have complained to the forum and await a response.


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## shaunhutchinson

[smiley=thumbsdown.gif] It's madness... WHAT IS GOING ON :-o :-o :-o


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## Lollypop86

TT Events
Organisation of TTF/TTOC cruises, meets and events for all forum members 
Moderators: TT Law, John-H, Hoggy, Ikon66, T3RBO, DXN 
Subforum: International Events

FYI just saying......

J
xx


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## J3SHF

Not sure, grab a bag of popcorn and take a pew :mrgreen:

Sounds a bit like why I stopped competing in high level concours though [smiley=gossip.gif]


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## Duggy

neilc said:


> As a forum sponsor I can tell you all that John does not have vertical scopes permission to lock TTOC threads and has not asked them for guidance at all on this matter and is acting entirely on his own. In fact the forum are 100% committed to ensuring the TTOC and it's 900 members continue to use the TTF. After all it's a business and a business needs exposure to make money.
> 
> In fact the forum owners were horrified to think that a club with 900 paying members cannot organise it's own member only events. After all a club stand means exactly that ! Paid club members can come on the stand as you would expect what is hard to understand about this ?
> 
> Talking as a sponsor and not as a TTOC committee member I am both angry and horrified by Johns actions to inflame this situation because as a sponsor it is making my marketing less effective and potentially removing vital TT enthusiasts from sections of the TTF.
> 
> I can assure you that no professional business would want to be associated with a forum policed in this manner. I have complained to the forum and await a response.


I totally agree Neil

John


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## shaunhutchinson

I must admit that I have never been to a TTOC event yet. My car isn't in great condition so I'm trying to keep my travel local. However I am planning to attend some when i get my mechanical/engine error sorted out. My B4 Bilstein shocks arrive tomorrow so I'm making progress.

To get back to the point, I actually joined the TTOC because my insurance said that they would lower my premium if i was a member of an owners club. I have found the experience of membership extremely useful. If I have had problems members have helped me. A lot of them are not TTOC members, or at least it doesn't say so in the profile. I think having people who are not members in the gang helps. So advertising to them is useful to keep them involved in the community perhaps. I think I would like to see non members who have helped me at TTOC events.


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## jimmyf

This appears to be what it's all about...TTF (or certain person/ persons on the TTF) with a hidden agenda to stop the TTOC from posting their organised events in the TTF events section. A sad day !! :-

"Forum rules
The events section of the TT Forum is for members to promote and organise any cruise, show stand, or social meeting event which is open to any forum member to participate. Private events not open to all forum members must be organised elsewhere. This is to encourage maximum benefit to the forum community.'"


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## J3SHF

jimmyf said:


> This appears to be what it's all about...TTF (or certain person/ persons on the TTF) with a hidden agenda to stop the TTOC from posting their organised events in the TTF events section. A sad day !! :-
> 
> "Forum rules
> The events section of the TT Forum is for members to promote and organise any cruise, show stand, or social meeting event which is open to any forum member to participate. Private events not open to all forum members must be organised elsewhere. This is to encourage maximum benefit to the forum community.'"


Like I just posted, it should be a place for like minded people with an interest in cars generally and more specially Audi.

I hope it's doesn't end up with a small minded car club mentality spoilt by a few at the expense of the masses.


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## mighTy Tee

Neil - great post I hope it is 100% correct. [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

As a TTOC member posting on the TTF (an open forum and billed as the "home to the TTOC") if the TTOC members can not have TTOC exclusivity to certain events like a TTOC stand at ADI then what is the point of the is the point of membership.

I do hope Vertical Scope take a stand on this in support of the TTOC as they have to recoup their substantial investment in this forum and the TTOC involvement obviously is integral to their TTF business


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## J3SHF

mighTy Tee said:


> Neil - great post I hope it is 100% correct. [smiley=thumbsup.gif]
> 
> As a TTOC member posting on the TTF (an open forum and billed as the "home to the TTOC") if the TTOC members can not have TTOC exclusivity to certain events like a TTOC stand at ADI then what is the point of the is the point of membership.
> 
> I do hope Vertical Scope take a stand on this in support of the TTOC as they have to recoup their substantial investment in this forum and the TTOC involvement obviously is integral to their TTF business


Nicely put.


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## Stueyturn

neilc said:


> As a forum sponsor I can tell you all that John does not have vertical scopes permission to lock TTOC threads and has not asked them for guidance at all on this matter and is acting entirely on his own. In fact the forum are 100% committed to ensuring the TTOC and it's 900 members continue to use the TTF. After all it's a business and a business needs exposure to make money.
> 
> In fact the forum owners were horrified to think that a club with 900 paying members cannot organise it's own member only events. After all a club stand means exactly that ! Paid club members can come on the stand as you would expect what is hard to understand about this ?
> 
> Talking as a sponsor and not as a TTOC committee member I am both angry and horrified by Johns actions to inflame this situation because as a sponsor it is making my marketing less effective and potentially removing vital TT enthusiasts from sections of the TTF.
> 
> I can assure you that no professional business would want to be associated with a forum policed in this manner. I have complained to the forum and await a response.


Good to hear that the forum owners don't support this one man mission!


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## V6RUL

I would like to see clear and concise reasons behind the decisions made and I'm sure some speculation is being added to the confusion.
Steve


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## Nem

To use the Facebookism, the relationship between the TTOC and TT Forum has for a long time been classed as "It's complicated", but we have certainly both co-existed and worked together in various forms and levels. 'Club' stands were always booked under the TTOC banner at the bigger events and were posted on the TT Forum for anyone wanting to take part.

In 2010 there was a problem at Audi Driver International where people on the stand were also part of the TT8N group/forum and while on the TTOC stand proceeded to put up their own banners and advertising which the Club deemed inappropriate. At this point the committee decided to actively enforce the fact that the Club stands should basically consist of paying Club members only. This was then reflected in the post in 2011 for Audi Driver International by TT Law stating that the stand was members only - viewtopic.php?f=3&t=223843










*This policy has now been in force the last three years* at the 4 major TTOC events each year, Stanford Hall, GTI International, Audis in the Park and Audi Driver International. This is nothing new for this year.

There are a couple of other situations where this also applies, Ultimate Dubs is one where we only have 5 spaces and will also be members only, but other TTOC Rep organised events have and will always be open to all, be it a pub social evening or a Rolling Road day it does not matter.

So, this year we posted up the Audi Driver International thread only to be questioned by John-H asking if TT Forum, ie non TTOC, members would be welcome on the stand there, stating they have always been in previous years. As stated, they have not been for the last three years to this point.

I called John and explained this but also said it was going to be re-examined by the committee and to hold fire on anything else until I could get back to him. The committee met for an online conference last Wednesday and although a number of differing opinion were aired the decision by unanimous vote was that club stands at these major events would remain members only.

I spoke to John the next day and had a very reasonable chat about all of this, quite a positive step knowing the history between us both, and conveyed the committee's reaffirmed decision. The outcome being that John as TT Forum admin has to do what he has to do to support and provide for the TT Forum members.

Over the weekend though the new rules have been posted in the events section which basically prohibit the TTOC from posting threads for these major members only events.

Today our thread for Audi Driver International 2014 has been locked and a new thread by Dani has been posted for the same event.

It is of our basic opinion that the new forum rules in the events section and the locking of our thread today has not been discussed with the forum owners and John has taken this upon himself.

Neilc, as part of his new committee role of Marketing Secretary and as a paying TT Forum sponsor has been in contact with the forum owners a couple of times in the last month and is now trying to find out where we as the club stands.


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## jamman

Cheers for the info Nick


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## Duggy

Thanks for that explanation of the facts Nick


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## mighTy Tee

Thanks Nick for a well constructed, objective and mature reply.

As a long standing TTOC member, I am a firm believer that (to quote the Amex advert) "Membership has it's Benefits", and one of those benefits has to be exclusive access to display on TTOC stands. Only if membership take up is insufficient should the club open up this benefit to non-members.

Generally "TTOC events" are part of other events so non-members have "public access" to the event (the only exception I am aware of is the evenTT where there is a higher price ticket for non members), so I do not see how non-TTOC members of the TTF have cause for complaint.


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## V6RUL

Thanks Nem for your measured reply, it is now a little clearer from a TTOC perspective.

Now it's the turn of the TTF to comment and with approval of the TTF owners and admin team......
Steve


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## The Blue Bandit

... thanks for the explanation Nick ... what doesn't seem fully clear to me is who has taken offence with the current system on the forum, it doesn't seem as though it's forum members accusing TTOC members of elitism and using the events section as a 'closed shop' ...
... many of the threads AITP included, are open to comment from forum members, forum members are openly encouraged to comment, join the cruise to the event, and ultimately attend the event- but to be on the club stand you need to have a paid up membership ... I don't see the problem, the event and everything within the thread is as pertinent to forum members as it is to TTOC members ... 
... Just because I bought a ticket to a football match, doesn't mean I can sit in the directors box- we'll all be watching the same game, and it's not elitism- it's because they've paid for a level of service I haven't- it doesn't mean I can't talk to them after the game and reflect upon it, but I don't expect to be sat in there with them as I haven't joined their 'club' to enjoy the benefits that go with it ... it doesn't mean that I will enjoy the day any less ...
... if the clubstand was opened up to all forum members, where do you then draw the line? ... I've seen current TTOC members who no longer own a TT being sensible enough to know that they won't be able to park their A4 estate on the TTOC club stand, and I'm pretty sure that most (non-TTOC) forum members wouldn't be outraged to know that they won't be able to join the club members, without joining the club ... 
... my view is that it's more about politics, and individuals trying to 'get one over on each other' than giving the forum members freedom of speech, and ultimately making the TTF the most enjoyable, and user friendly experience that it can be ...
... I've always been a TTF user first and a TTOC member second, but I hope that for the sake of the forum common sense prevails on this occasion ...

Steve


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## neilc

The Blue Bandit said:


> ... thanks for the explanation Nick ... what doesn't seem fully clear to me is who has taken offence with the current system on the forum, it doesn't seem as though it's forum members accusing TTOC members of elitism and using the events section as a 'closed shop' ...
> ... many of the threads AITP included, are open to comment from forum members, forum members are openly encouraged to comment, join the cruise to the event, and ultimately attend the event- but to be on the club stand you need to have a paid up membership ... I don't see the problem, the event and everything within the thread is as pertinent to forum members as it is to TTOC members ...
> ... Just because I bought a ticket to a football match, doesn't mean I can sit in the directors box- we'll all be watching the same game, and it's not elitism- it's because they've paid for a level of service I haven't- it doesn't mean I can't talk to them after the game and reflect upon it, but I don't expect to be sat in there with them as I haven't joined their 'club' to enjoy the benefits that go with it ... it doesn't mean that I will enjoy the day any less ...
> ... if the clubstand was opened up to all forum members, where do you then draw the line? ... I've seen current TTOC members who no longer own a TT being sensible enough to know that they won't be able to park their A4 estate on the TTOC club stand, and I'm pretty sure that most (non-TTOC) forum members wouldn't be outraged to know that they won't be able to join the club members, without joining the club ...
> ... my view is that it's more about politics, and individuals trying to 'get one over on each other' than giving the forum members freedom of speech, and ultimately making the TTF the most enjoyable, and user friendly experience that it can be ...
> ... I've always been a TTF user first and a TTOC member second, but I hope that for the sake of the forum common sense prevails on this occasion ...
> 
> Steve


Very well said


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## V6RUL

It's a sad time again that there are disputes between TTF and TTOC, but it must be recognised that both are businesses and so are driven by financial income.

It would be interesting to know if the TTF owners are looking for a more direct revenue stream to allow the TTOC to live on the TTF, as it may have been perceived by the TTF owners that allowing the TTOC TTF access in some way increases the revenue of the TTF owners coffers and maybe they think that it doesn't produce enough, if any.

Is the TTF making a stand and has drawn a line in the sand to force the TTOC to "pay to play" or forcing them into a corner to be absorbed into the TTF as a single business, or for the TTOC to setup their own forum.

Steve


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## jamman

Since the owners of the TTF had no input in this I think it's very much a personal thing.


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## neilc

V6RUL said:


> It's a sad time again that there are disputes between TTF and TTOC, but it must be recognised that both are businesses and so are driven by financial income.
> 
> The TTOC is not a business
> 
> It would be interesting to know if the TTF owners are looking for a more direct revenue stream to allow the TTOC to live on the TTF, as it may have been perceived by the TTF owners that allowing the TTOC TTF access in some way increases the revenue of the TTF owners coffers and maybe they think that it doesn't produce enough, if any.
> 
> The TTF does indeed value our 900 members Steve , it gives the forum much bigger exposure so would be naive to ask us to leave. We have offered to pay and have been told categorically that is not required and we are welcome.
> 
> Is the TTF making a stand and has drawn a line in the sand to force the TTOC to "pay to play" or forcing them into a corner to be absorbed into the TTF as a single business, or for the TTOC to setup their own forum.
> 
> The TTF wants us to be a big part of the TTF as mentioned. This stand has nothing to do with the forum owners as we all know.
> 
> Steve


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## V6RUL

jamman said:


> Since the owners of the TTF had no input in this I think it's very much a personal thing.


And you know this because..
Steve


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## neilc

neilc said:


> V6RUL said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's a sad time again that there are disputes between TTF and TTOC, but it must be recognised that both are businesses and so are driven by financial income.
> 
> The TTOC is not a business
> 
> It would be interesting to know if the TTF owners are looking for a more direct revenue stream to allow the TTOC to live on the TTF, as it may have been perceived by the TTF owners that allowing the TTOC TTF access in some way increases the revenue of the TTF owners coffers and maybe they think that it doesn't produce enough, if any.
> 
> The TTF does indeed value our 900 members Steve , it gives the forum much bigger exposure so would be naive to ask us to leave. We have offered to pay and have been told categorically that is not required and we are welcome.
> 
> Is the TTF making a stand and has drawn a line in the sand to force the TTOC to "pay to play" or forcing them into a corner to be absorbed into the TTF as a single business, or for the TTOC to setup their own forum.
> 
> The TTF wants us to be a big part of the TTF as mentioned. This stand has nothing to do with the forum owners as we all know.
> 
> Steve
Click to expand...

Steve , James knows that because he read this.


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## Lollypop86

I love how this was moved lol

J
xx


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## V6RUL

neilc said:


> V6RUL said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's a sad time again that there are disputes between TTF and TTOC, but it must be recognised that both are businesses and so are driven by financial income.
> 
> The TTOC is not a business
> 
> Semantics
> 
> It would be interesting to know if the TTF owners are looking for a more direct revenue stream to allow the TTOC to live on the TTF, as it may have been perceived by the TTF owners that allowing the TTOC TTF access in some way increases the revenue of the TTF owners coffers and maybe they think that it doesn't produce enough, if any.
> 
> The TTF does indeed value our 900 members Steve , it gives the forum much bigger exposure so would be naive to ask us to leave. We have offered to pay and have been told categorically that is not required and we are welcome.
> 
> 
> The 900 members are probably already members on the TTF and allows TTOC exposure.
> I'm surprised monies haven't been paid as what business would refuse income unless T&Cs aren't right..for now..
> 
> Is the TTF making a stand and has drawn a line in the sand to force the TTOC to "pay to play" or forcing them into a corner to be absorbed into the TTF as a single business, or for the TTOC to setup their own forum.
> 
> The TTF wants us to be a big part of the TTF as mentioned. This stand has nothing to do with the forum owners as we all know.
> 
> I'm sure it would if the T&Cs suit the TTF owners and until the owners comment on the situation I would hope the TTF admin are working within the boundaries set by the owners.
> 
> Steve
Click to expand...


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## jamman

Don't you think it's quite odd that no one from TTF or Admin has posted ?

Normally all over this sort of thing like a rash.


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## Lollypop86

jamman said:


> Don't you think it's quite odd that no one from TTF or Admin has posted ?
> 
> Normally all over this sort of thing like a rash.


He didnt reply to my PM either.......because he is brickin it! lol

J
xx


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## Ikon66

Lollypop86 said:


> ....because he is brickin it! lol
> 
> J
> xx


 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: yeah we're all scared :lol: :roll:


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## V6RUL

Ikon66 said:


> Lollypop86 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ....because he is brickin it! lol
> 
> J
> xx
> 
> 
> 
> :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: yeah we're all scared :lol: :roll:
Click to expand...

So..do you have news for us all..
Steve


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## Ikon66

Not for me to respond


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## Duggy

Ikon66 said:


> Not for me to respond


Surely as a moderator you were consulted...

Or maybe not in this case...

John


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## Ikon66

Indeed I was but not for me to reply on behalf of owners or admin


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## Lollypop86

So you'll quite happily be part of the hitler brigade and move TTOC stuff out of the events section?

J
xx


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## Ikon66

I really don't see why you're all upset. We've not stopped the TTOC from posting their events just ensuring in the correct forum. You need to relax a bit more jess :wink:


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## Lollypop86

I think you'll find that you have Ikon.....EvenTT is a private event......TTOC stands are apparently "private"

J
xx


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## Ikon66

And your problem with that is? TTOC members can see it and those are the only people the TTOC are allowing on their stand so what's the point of advertising their event that others can't be involved in. As has been said it was the club's decision to exclude TTF members and I'm guessing I know who instigated it :roll: :roll:


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## Lollypop86

Because why now? Why not when the TTF became the home to the TTOC......as Nick put its been several years that there has been a TTOC only stand at a major event....but why wasnt it then made clear on what could go where? Is this the TTF's way of pushing TTOC out so that they arent effectively giving TTF members visability of the TTOC?

J
xx


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## Ikon66

We all know who wants that split and it's not us :roll:


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## Lollypop86

the one who wants the split has been radio silent........ [smiley=baby.gif] [smiley=bigcry.gif] [smiley=baby.gif] [smiley=bigcry.gif]

J
xx


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## neilc

Ikon66 said:


> We all know who wants that split and it's not us :roll:


You seem very sensible Ikon ( sorry not sure of your name ) We most certainly don't want a split either , the TTF can and has worked very well for us all and I see no reason why this cannot continue.

I think you know my position as a sponsor and I find this potential split very worrying indeed 

We are all TT enthusiasts so let's keep it that way


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## Ikon66

No Jess, it's one of your committee who no longer posts under his own name but as TT Owners club


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## Ikon66

Indeed Neil and it's highly unlikely there will be a split as most TTOC members use this as their main forum and not your own as he wants


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## neilc

Ikon66 said:


> No Jess, it's one of your committee who no longer posts under his own name but as TT Owners club


Trust me that really isn't true Ikon , we all totally understand the importance of the TTF believe me. I have no reason to lie to you.



Ikon66 said:


> Indeed Neil and it's highly unlikely there will be a split as most TTOC members use this as their main forum and not your own as he wants


Good , a split would be awful for both parties


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## shaunhutchinson

Just gonna leave this here because what next eh... 'No posting on the TTF?' Is that is what is happening here!

[smiley=gossip.gif]


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## Lollypop86

Ikon66 said:


> No Jess, it's one of your committee who no longer posts under his own name but as TT Owners club


You do know that there are a number of people who use that right?

J
xx


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## Ikon66

indeed I do


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## Wallsendmag

Ikon66 said:


> No Jess, it's one of your committee who no longer posts under his own name but as TT Owners club


I no longer post on here as I have no reason to , I along with other committee members use the club log in a it shows the message is from the club and not an individual. Anyone who is telling you otherwise is lying . I have no wish to split from the forum but someone who runs the forum wants the club out. You can say sorry whenever it is convenient.


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## Ikon66

I have nothing to apologise for :? can quite easily make my own mind up


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## Wallsendmag

My last post on the subject and then I'll leave you in peace. The club hasn't changed their club stand policy since 2010 , why is it a problem now nearly four years later?


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## jamman

I find this all very sad and this petty action I'm my mind has just opened up old wounds that I thought were healing.

It smacks to me of not being about the TTF or TTOC but purely of John getting his own back as said above this has been In place 4 years and only now it's a problem.

Sorry if this offends John but it's just my view of these sorry proceedings you have always been a great help to me and I appreciate that but something about this just doesn't sit right.


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## mighTy Tee

jamman said:


> I find this all very sad and this petty action I'm my mind has just opened up old wounds that I thought were healing.
> 
> It smacks to me of not being about the TTF or TTOC but purely of John getting his own back as said above this has been In place 4 years and only know it's a problem.
> 
> Sorry if this offends John but it's just my view of these sorry proceedings you have always been a great help to me and I appreciate that but something about this just doesn't sit right.


Exactly my thoughts. Sad.


----------



## Lollypop86

jamman said:


> I find this all very sad and this petty action I'm my mind has just opened up old wounds that I thought were healing.
> 
> It smacks to me of not being about the TTF or TTOC but purely of John getting his own back as said above this has been In place 4 years and only now it's a problem.
> 
> Sorry if this offends John but it's just my view of these sorry proceedings you have always been a great help to me and I appreciate that but something about this just doesn't sit right.


*claps*

J
xx


----------



## The Blue Bandit

Ikon66 said:


> And your problem with that is? TTOC members can see it and those are the only people the TTOC are allowing on their stand so what's the point of advertising their event that others can't be involved in. As has been said it was the club's decision to exclude TTF members and I'm guessing I know who instigated it :roll: :roll:


... I'm not trying to be smart or funny here- but where is the line in the sand?

... If the forum is effectively saying that any meet/event posted that doesn't include _every single_ forum member is deemed unfair and exclusive, what happens then, if for example, somebody wanted to arrange a meet or event exclusively for QS owners? I don't own a QS, and so I wouldn't necessarily be expecting to attend ... are we effectively saying that we can't have any posts in the events section that aren't inclusive of _everybody_, or will we be in a position where we will have to have sub-forums for every demographic so that if they want an 'in-house' club stand or event they can have threads that can exclude anyone that isn't directly involved with it, or is it just the TTOC that will be forced into it's own sub-forum to further encourage animosity between TTF members and TTOC members ... an animosity incidently, that only seems to exist amongst the hierachy of high level forum members and the upper echelons of the TTOC comittee, because in my experience most of the members and users of the TT forum are forum members first and TTOC members second, and ultimately just enjoy sharing a common interest ... without it becoming political in any way ...

:?


----------



## John-H

There seems to be a lot of misinformation and speculation floating about. I'm on holiday with my daughter at the moment and have limited access and don't want to be ignoring her by being on the forum all the time.

Anyway, just to put you in the picture, this all started with Haigh Hall, where in the run up to organising the event, club Membership Secretary Andrew (wallsendmag) posted his disapproval of TT Forum (non TTOC) members being allowed on the TT stand. Secretary Sara (Burns) also incorrectly posted that this had always been a TTOC event. In actual fact this had always been a TT Forum event organised by Les originally in order to maximise attendance for a charitable event.To his credit the local rep saw all the bad feeling this was creating with members complaining about being excluded and ensured that TT Forum members were accommodated on the stand as had always been the case.

I saw this was happening with the ADI stand too so I asked for someone from the committee to confirm that TTF members (non TTOC) would be accommodated. The reply came that it was TTOC members only.

As soon as the reply came I was almost immediately telephoned by chairman Nick (Nem) who emphasised that it was not him posting under the club account but in fact Andrew (wallsendmag) "deciding club policy by himself again and not consulting with the rest of the committee" (his words) and that he (Nem) didn't agree with the post and had no problem with TTF members attending the club organised stand as had previously been the case. E.g.



Wallsendmag said:


> We're not at all fussy its not really a TTOC stand its just a stand organised for TT owners and various forum members.


Original thread:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=180836&p=1848822&hilit=ADI#p1848822

(Andrew may have posted to the contrary since but that was Andrew - not club policy when I was on the committee)

There was a committee vote later in the week to discuss this but despite Nick's input, he told me, a vote was carried to exclude TTF members.

Nick suggested to me that the TT Forum should organise it's own ADI stand and I said it might come to that and with this TTOC policy change we now had the ridiculous situation of TTF members being excluded by the organisation of private and monopolised events to which they are not invited on their own forum. Also the divisive effect of having TTOC and TTF stand at the same events in order to accommodate all members. This creates bad feeling as we had already seen at the Haigh Hall event. Nick sympathised and said we should do what we needed to do, to act in the forum's best interest and he fully understood this.

This had all been recorded and discussed on the moderators forum and the decision taken following discussion, to support the majority of TT Forum members by insisting that events organised on the TT Forum should be for all TT Forum members. The club is of course welcome to organise events here so long as it includes TT Forum members. The rule was added to the events forum. This is in reaction to the TTOC policy change and to try and encourage inclusive event organising to everyone's benefit.

I then attended the Haigh Hall event where the earlier attempt had been made to stop TT Forum members attending what had always been organised as a TT Forum event. As I said, I'm glad to say that the local rep supported the attendance of all forum members and the day went well.

Nick (Nem) came to this event too and said to me that he had seen the rule change in the events section and commented that he thought it was, ".. a bit harsh but it's your call". I found that a little surprising given the conversation we had had and his stated belief that forum members should be made welcome on club stands but there were some TTOC members sat next to him so perhaps he wanted to take a stand (excuse the pun).

There has also been comment here about splits between TTOC and TTF. This is certainly not being promoted as the two organisations should be working in support of each other to mutual benefit. Certainly the club benefits from huge TTF exposure to recruit its members and certainly the TTF benefits from events being organised by the club creating interest and benefit to members - *but there has to be some give and take and sharing for this to work. It is hoped that this will be encouraged in future.*


----------



## Nem

John-H said:


> There seems to be a lot of misinformation


There does, and the main point is this...



John-H said:


> This is in reaction to the TTOC policy change and to try and encourage inclusive event organising to everyone's benefit.


*There has not been any TTOC policy change.*

I posted earlier in this thread and explained that TTOC stands have been members only since 2011 so nothing has changed. I posted the link to the 2011 ADI thread where TT Law stated that the stand was for members only. The same thread in 2012 posted by Mal said the same and last years thread was posted by the club account directing people to the Members Forum to add their names, by default people who have to be members.

Nobody on the TT Forum for the last three years has complained about these stands being members only or about us posting them in the events section.

So what is the real reason for this? It cannot be a response to a policy change as there hasn't been one...


----------



## burns

I feel the need to clarify what has been said about myself and the Haigh Hall show. Since you attended this year, John, you will no doubt have seen the stand marker which marked out our plot. It was labelled "TT Owners Club" as it has been every year since this show began in 2011 (it has never been labelled TT Forum) and indeed stand markers accord with the name the stand is booked in. Furthermore, if you look back at the original thread for the 2011 show, you will see that Les began the thread, and signed his original post "TTOC North West Rep". I know this because I viewed it myself when you all booted off about it on the HH thread recently. The inference of course, is that it was a TTOC stand until Les spat his dummy out and resigned before the 2012 show. From that point onwards he became anti-TTOC, and begrudgingly posted that he would "allow the TTOC to display their flags" at the 2012 show if they wished. I would also add as a final point, that at the 2012 show, a couple of North West members spoke to me (as I had recently been elected to the committee) about the attendance of non-members on the stand, which they were unhappy with, as they considered it wrong in principle.

You are also, of course, aware that on Sunday the "TT Owners Club" was announced as the winner of the stand of the day :wink:

Yes, I did (until last week, in fact) believe that Haigh Hall was a members-only stand, but the motion proposed during the recent meeting was that only the stands at the four main events are members only. On that basis, I accept the club's position and an big enough to admit my error.

What is clear from your post, however, John, is that you discussed the new events rule with the moderators, not with the forum owners. I'm not really sure you have the power to decide policy in the commercial concern that is the TT Forum...


----------



## neilc

John ,

I will make this brief as I genuinely don't want to disturb your holiday. And you are fully aware of my views as I have raised them with the forum owners as you know and I'm positive this will be resolved with or without your cooperation.

But there are a couple of points I would like to question.

As Nick has said since 2011 major TTOC events have been member only as you would expect and John you were part of the TTOC committee at the time and since until last year so you must have agreed with this at the time :?

Secondly I believe that the vast majority of TTF users are totally fed up of the continued use by yourself of personal views and what has been said by others in conversation.

E.G ... Andrew said this so I said that and then Nick said this so I did that. :roll:

It really is very childish indeed and speaking purely as a forum sponsor I find it unprofessional and unbecoming of someone of your status.

The facts are that hundreds of TTF users enjoyment and access is being affected by you and the decisions made without the forum owners permission and that sits very badly with me as a paying sponsor.

Neil


----------



## V6RUL

I understand where John is coming from now that the waters are clearing.
TTOC exclusive events to be advertised on the TTOC site, as what's the point of non TTOC members seeing the posts.
TTOC non exclusive events can be advertised on the TTF.

Steve


----------



## jamman

Words fail me Steve, clueless


----------



## mighTy Tee

V6RUL said:


> ........ as what's the point of non TTOC members seeing the posts.
> TTOC non exclusive events can be advertised on the TTF.
> 
> Steve


It shows to non-members that for a minimal cost of £15 per year (web membership) they can get additional access to events.

I do not see a problem there. What I do see is an on going spat, which I am afraid to say, is getting silly and childish. Vertical Scope need to review the situation (with both parties) and come down with firm guidance for moderators and publish that guidance for all to see. If that ends up with moderators being removed and/or the tie up with the TTOC being removed so be it.


----------



## V6RUL

jamman said:


> Words fail me Steve, clueless


Unless you see something different..I have just tried to sum up what I think is going on.
Steve


----------



## shaunhutchinson

Is it time to leave ttf? I don't know. I'm less interestd in ttf after hearing all this stuff. It is very off putting.


----------



## brittan

V6RUL said:


> TTOC exclusive events to be advertised on the TTOC site, as what's the point of non TTOC members seeing the posts.
> TTOC non exclusive events can be advertised on the TTF.
> 
> Steve


What? There are no "TTOC exclusive" events being discussed here. Even the annual EvenTT is open to non-members albeit with a slightly higher entry fee. 
The events in question are organised by neither TTF nor TTOC. The TTOC has a stand at the events that is for members only which is wholly reasonable, in accord with every other club that attends and has been the staus quo since 2011, as pointed out above by Nem.

What is very clear is that John simply cannot move on after the events of over a year ago that saw him fail to keep his position as editor of AbsoluTTe and TTOC committee member. 
By starting off from the false premise that TTOC has made a new policy change about non members being on Club stands at events (as above that policy hasn't changed since 2011) John seems to be intent on conducting a vendetta against the TTOC and is now trying to disrupt the long-standing symbiotic relationship between TTF and TTOC - and he is misusing his position as TTF Admin to do so.

Since I joined this forum some 7 years ago I've always seen John as very knowledgeable and helpful, someone who has put a lot of time into 'looking after' the forum. His current apparent behaviour however is unprofessional and unbecoming and I believe warrants serious consideration by the forum owners as to whether he should remain part of the admin team.


----------



## les

burns said:


> I feel the need to clarify what has been said about myself and the Haigh Hall show. Since you attended this year, John, you will no doubt have seen the stand marker which marked out our plot. It was labelled "TT Owners Club" as it has been every year since this show began in 2011 (it has never been labelled TT Forum)


That's not clarifying it it complete misinformation at best as you should well know.

Now for some FACTS. I organised the first 2 years of the Haigh Hall show as you know. You should also know (as I have posted such before) That I organised it as a member of the TTF not the TTOC. That is a FACT. Yes I was the NW TTOC rep at the time however I made it quite clear form the outset that both events I organised was a TTF event never a TTOC event. However as a gesture of good will I ALLOWED the TTOC to put up their banners and to add to the appeal of the stand. Why you persist with spreading this misinformation I don't know but you do know the truth as I have posted it before not that you commented on it at the time you just ignored it.



burns said:


> and indeed stand markers accord with the name the stand is booked in. Furthermore, if you look back at the original thread for the 2011 show, you will see that Les began the thread, and signed his original post "TTOC North West Rep". I know this because I viewed it myself when you all booted off about it on the HH thread recently.


You don't seem to understand that I was the TTOC rep at the time so of course my post would end TTOC rep as all my posts did at the time. If I posted the same again it wouldn't do as I am not anymore it's that simple but you wish to ignore facts.



burns said:


> The inference of course, is that it was a TTOC stand until Les spat his dummy out and resigned before the 2012 show. From that point onward he became anti-TTOC, and begrudgingly posted that he would "allow the TTOC to display their flags" at the 2012 show if they wished.[/quite]
> 
> Dear oh dear oh dear. "spat the dummy" indeed. If pointing out facts to your fiction is spitting the dummy well......
> 
> 
> 
> burns said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I did (until last week, in fact) believe that Haigh Hall was a members-only stand,
Click to expand...

Bad memory or what? How many times do you need telling of the facts yet you don't seem to remember the facts as I posted before that you continue to ignore or whatever for your own reasons. I can't for the life of me understand why you continue to post such nonsense.

Let me make it perfectly clear to you and anybody else who might be deluded or have problems remembering. The first 2 Haigh Hall events were always TTF events organised by me for the TTF full stop as I maid perfectly clear from the beginning.

*EDIT* BTW when the 2nd Haigh Hall event took place I was no longer a member of the TTOC and so wasn't the NW rep at the time. Thanks.


----------



## jamman

Steve, I think Richards (mighty) and Brittan's post pretty much sum up the issues.

What will now appear are posts that are almost entirely personnal.


----------



## Wallsendmag

John-H said:


> Wallsendmag said:
> 
> 
> 
> We're not at all fussy its not really a TTOC stand its just a stand organised for TT owners and various forum members.
> 
> 
> 
> Original thread:
> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=180836&p=1848822&hilit=ADI#p1848822
> 
> (Andrew may have posted to the contrary since but that was Andrew - not club policy when I was on the committee)
Click to expand...

That was the club position is 2010 when it was posted, after the TT8N fiasco on the stand that year club policy changed , from 2011 onwards it has been members only at the major events.


----------



## John-H

Posted on Facebook:










When I spoke to Nick the first time about this he like me supported TTF members being allowed on the stand at ADI as had always been the case as far as we were both aware. Nick wasn't too sure about last year's event but I didn't attend that anyway.

In the second conversation Nick had found a post to the contrary but a post is not policy. There was a vote to decide that last week and he informed me of it's result. He didn't agree with the result of the vote and both suggested that TTF set up a stand at ADI and do whatever we needed to do the best interests of the majority the TTF members which have done.

As for other major events - AITP 2014 TTOC thread does not state members only and you can see non members on the stand list and in the thread turning up by paying £8 on the gate e.g. page two *here*. Stanford Hall 2014 TTOC thread *here* and GTi International 2014 TTOC thread *here* also do not state TTOC members only and have forum members on the stand list or say they are going in the thread.

Previous years have had a similar mix. As an example the AITP 2013 thread was started by cla1470 the event organiser *here*. When asked who to contact to be on the "TTOC stand" the reply given was that it's "open to all members" (page 2). Also that TTOC members usually park up and anyone can park along side and there's no need to book. Much later in the thread (page 8 ) there is a post by a club committee member saying it's strictly TTOC to which a club member states, "Going by other years all TTs are parked together its just the members are placed towards the front.." i.e. all TTs together. Saying that past events have been members only is wishful thinking and attempting to re-write history.

When the TTOC committee decided to no longer help administrate the TT Forum they made much of the "separation of powers" - that it was not appropriate that the TTOC should interfere with the running of the TT Forum. Yet we have this thread started it would appear to do exactly that.

The club is b being encouraged to be inclusive and give back to TTF members what had been taken away. There is no reason why this can not be achieved via cooperation.

As I've said, he club benefits from huge TTF exposure to recruit its members and certainly the TTF benefits from events being organised by the club creating interest and benefit to members - *but there has to be some give and take and sharing for this to work. It is hoped that this will be encouraged in future.*


----------



## Marco34

When you read all the posts it's clear to see that a car club, that's basically all it is, is throwing around politics. The TT Forum banner still has Home to the TTOC and the TT_forum is still the primary tool for most people, whether it be events or general TT chat.

I can appreciate that TTOC members would have reduced costs to TTOC events, ie EvenTT but surely they can't stake claim to every show where TTs gather? Past years at Haigh Hall have clashed with Audi's in the Park and the show flags have gone there, I can understand that as Haigh Hall has been a charity event for anyone TTOC or TTF to attend. Of course it will go under the TTOC owners club banner, as every other clubbed will be names the 'owners club'.

What John, Steve and others are questioning is why should one not be able to attend events just because they aren't in the TTOC? All TTF and TTOC should be treated equally at shows, membership should be about magazines, badges etc not excuding fellow TT owners. EvenTT is the only event where I see reductions and exclusivity for TTOC members. After all aren't we here to enjoy the cars rather than push around politics?

I used to be a happy TTOC member and would still rather be one but the current behaviour has alienated me from it. If you look at all the responses from committee members (valid and non valid) it's like a dictatorship. I doubt that is the intention but sadly that's how it's being received.

I'm thankful that the North West crew is a great bunch and we all get on with each other; monthly meets and cruises are something we all look forward to. As I have said before we welcome ex TT owners and their new cars, simply because they have become friends and to me that's the essence of enjoying our cars.


----------



## Stueyturn

Marco34 said:


> I used to be a happy TTOC member and would still rather be one but the current behaviour has alienated me from it. If you look at all the responses from committee members (valid and non valid) it's like a dictatorship. I doubt that is the intention but sadly that's how it's being received.


If you want to talk about a dictatorship

"A dictatorship is a government or a social situation where one person makes all the rules and decisions without input from anyone else."

That sounds a lot more like the decision that has been made by "one" person on here. 
Unless of course Vertical Scope have authorised this move?


----------



## Lollypop86

Marco34 said:


> What John, Steve and others are questioning is why should one not be able to attend events


I'm not sure why your not understanding what actually happens.....there hasnt been anyone say that TTF members cant attend events, just that the TTOC stand is for TTOC members as a subsidised cost......whats the beef? My friends 3 year old understands that quite well.......

J
xx


----------



## les

Well said Mark and I wholeheartedly agree.  
Members of both the TTOC and TTF who attended the 2nd Haigh Hall show (which I organised) may recall we even Gary and his Mrs VW Lupo's on the stand, did people complain if so they didn't do so to me. This year a Porsche was on the TTOC stand.

The NW guys and girls are a great bunch many will change cars over the years but I know that those who do will always be made welcome and invited to whatever event or meet as I have been and long may it continue.


----------



## mighTy Tee

If as a TTOC member I asked to display (with good notice - say more than 10 days prior) my TT on the TTOC stand at an event and was told "sorry but the stand is filled with some non-members cars" I would be very pissed off.

If the TTOC organises a stand at a public event then that stand should be offered first and foremost to TTOC members to display their Audi TT (not my wife's A3 or my Range Rover) and only if those places are not filled as the event approaches should they be offered to non-members. Being a public event any owner of any car can be at the event and they are not excluded from walking up to the TTOC stand and viewing or talking about their interests in Audi TTs.


----------



## Sutty

I'm getting close to buying a Vauxhall now..................... [smiley=argue.gif]


----------



## Lollypop86

Sutty said:


> I'm getting close to buying a Vauxhall now..................... [smiley=argue.gif]


You mean a Peugeot right?

J
xx


----------



## Sutty

No a Vauxhall as I said. Even a 3 year old understands that!


----------



## mighTy Tee

Sutty said:


> No a Vauxhall as I said. Even a 3 year old understands that!


Well as a member of the TTF you can display your Vauxhall on the TTOC stand


----------



## Sutty

Indeed I can :lol:


----------



## V6RUL

les said:


> Well said Mark and I wholeheartedly agree.
> Members of both the TTOC and TTF who attended the 2nd Haigh Hall show (which I organised) may recall we even Gary and his Mrs VW Lupo's on the stand, did people complain if so they didn't do so to me. This year a Porsche was on the TTOC stand.
> 
> The NW guys and girls are a great bunch many will change cars over the years but I know that those who do will always be made welcome and invited to whatever event or meet as I have been and long may it continue.


And Julie's Merc was behind the Porsche on the stand and we were made very welcome by all.
Steve


----------



## Lollypop86

Sutty said:


> No a Vauxhall as I said. Even a 3 year old understands that!


I'm sure you meant a Peugeot....... *runs away* lol

J
xx


----------



## shshivji

mighTy Tee said:


> If as a TTOC member I asked to display (with good notice - say more than 10 days prior) my TT on the TTOC stand at an event and was told "sorry but the stand is filled with some non-members cars" I would be very pissed off.
> 
> If the TTOC organises a stand at a public event then that stand should be offered first and foremost to TTOC members to display their Audi TT (not my wife's A3 or my Range Rover) and only if those places are not filled as the event approaches should they be offered to non-members. Being a public event any owner of any car can be at the event and they are not excluded from walking up to the TTOC stand and viewing or talking about their interests in Audi TTs.


And if that's the case then advertise all TTOC exclusive stands within the TTOC forum as it has no interest what so ever to any other TTF members.....

Shak


----------



## Cloud

shshivji said:


> mighTy Tee said:
> 
> 
> 
> If as a TTOC member I asked to display (with good notice - say more than 10 days prior) my TT on the TTOC stand at an event and was told "sorry but the stand is filled with some non-members cars" I would be very pissed off.
> 
> If the TTOC organises a stand at a public event then that stand should be offered first and foremost to TTOC members to display their Audi TT (not my wife's A3 or my Range Rover) and only if those places are not filled as the event approaches should they be offered to non-members. Being a public event any owner of any car can be at the event and they are not excluded from walking up to the TTOC stand and viewing or talking about their interests in Audi TTs.
> 
> 
> 
> And if that's the case then advertise all TTOC exclusive stands within the TTOC forum as it has no interest what so ever to any other TTF members.....
> 
> Shak
Click to expand...

That's a good point.


----------



## mighTy Tee

shshivji said:


> mighTy Tee said:
> 
> 
> 
> If as a TTOC member I asked to display (with good notice - say more than 10 days prior) my TT on the TTOC stand at an event and was told "sorry but the stand is filled with some non-members cars" I would be very pissed off.
> 
> If the TTOC organises a stand at a public event then that stand should be offered first and foremost to TTOC members to display their Audi TT (not my wife's A3 or my Range Rover) and only if those places are not filled as the event approaches should they be offered to non-members. Being a public event any owner of any car can be at the event and they are not excluded from walking up to the TTOC stand and viewing or talking about their interests in Audi TTs.
> 
> 
> 
> And if that's the case then advertise all TTOC exclusive stands within the TTOC forum as it has no interest what so ever to any other TTF members.....
> 
> Shak
Click to expand...

If it is posted in the events, it highlights to non-members the event exists and they can attend the event (a) through general public admission, (b) if they would like to display their car they can join the TTOC and display on the TTOC stand (a benefit of the £15 per year TTOC membership) or (c) they can join any other group who may also have a stand (or even organise their own stand)

So therefore the is no harm in the event being visible to all TTF members


----------



## Marco34

mighTy Tee said:


> shshivji said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mighTy Tee said:
> 
> 
> 
> If as a TTOC member I asked to display (with good notice - say more than 10 days prior) my TT on the TTOC stand at an event and was told "sorry but the stand is filled with some non-members cars" I would be very pissed off.
> 
> If the TTOC organises a stand at a public event then that stand should be offered first and foremost to TTOC members to display their Audi TT (not my wife's A3 or my Range Rover) and only if those places are not filled as the event approaches should they be offered to non-members. Being a public event any owner of any car can be at the event and they are not excluded from walking up to the TTOC stand and viewing or talking about their interests in Audi TTs.
> 
> 
> 
> And if that's the case then advertise all TTOC exclusive stands within the TTOC forum as it has no interest what so ever to any other TTF members.....
> 
> Shak
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If it is posted in the events, it highlights to non-members the event exists and they can attend the event (a) through general public admission, (b) if they would like to display their car they can join the TTOC and display on the TTOC stand (a benefit of the £15 per year TTOC membership) or (c) they can join any other group who may also have a stand (or even organise their own stand)
> 
> So therefore the is no harm in the event being visible to all TTF members
Click to expand...

Agreed Shak. My points have clearly been missed and am wasting my time expressing my opinion. As we aren't 3 year olds and are all intelligent beings, it's clear that people are not happy about the way events are organised.

I'm of the conclusion do what you want as I am starting not to care. I don't attend many big events but Haigh Hall is local and a great German car show. I shall be attending the car show next year, on the stand, whether it be TTOC or TTF, it's for charity after all.


----------



## A3DFU

Taking attention away from ADI for a moment, please check out last year's AITP attendants' list:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=322554

There are two names on there (ttpos and rossored) who I believe were never TTOC members. Correct me if I'm worng, however, if it is true that they never were TTOC members then it is not correct that politics on TTOC/TTF stand attendance was changed three years ago.

I also clearly remember that Wak turned up at a club event not too long ago. Now Wak hasn't been a TTOC member since more than four years but he was made very welcome all the same!



Marco34 said:


> When you read all the posts it's clear to see that a car club, that's basically all it is, is throwing around politics. The TT Forum banner still has Home to the TTOC and the TT_forum is still the primary tool for most people, whether it be events or general TT chat.
> 
> I can appreciate that TTOC members would have reduced costs to TTOC events, ie EvenTT but surely they can't stake claim to every show where TTs gather? Past years at Haigh Hall have clashed with Audi's in the Park and the show flags have gone there, I can understand that as Haigh Hall has been a charity event for anyone TTOC or TTF to attend. Of course it will go under the TTOC owners club banner, as every other clubbed will be names the 'owners club'.
> 
> What John, Steve and others are questioning is why should one not be able to attend events just because they aren't in the TTOC? All TTF and TTOC should be treated equally at shows, membership should be about magazines, badges etc not excuding fellow TT owners. EvenTT is the only event where I see reductions and exclusivity for TTOC members. After all aren't we here to enjoy the cars rather than push around politics?
> 
> I used to be a happy TTOC member and would still rather be one but the current behaviour has alienated me from it. If you look at all the responses from committee members (valid and non valid) it's like a dictatorship. I doubt that is the intention but sadly that's how it's being received.
> 
> I'm thankful that the North West crew is a great bunch and we all get on with each other; monthly meets and cruises are something we all look forward to. As I have said before we welcome ex TT owners and their new cars, simply because they have become friends and to me that's the essence of enjoying our cars.





shshivji said:


> mighTy Tee said:
> 
> 
> 
> If as a TTOC member I asked to display (with good notice - say more than 10 days prior) my TT on the TTOC stand at an event and was told "sorry but the stand is filled with some non-members cars" I would be very pissed off.
> 
> If the TTOC organises a stand at a public event then that stand should be offered first and foremost to TTOC members to display their Audi TT (not my wife's A3 or my Range Rover) and only if those places are not filled as the event approaches should they be offered to non-members. Being a public event any owner of any car can be at the event and they are not excluded from walking up to the TTOC stand and viewing or talking about their interests in Audi TTs.
> 
> 
> 
> And if that's the case then advertise all TTOC exclusive stands within the TTOC forum as it has no interest what so ever to any other TTF members.....
> 
> Shak
Click to expand...

Well put Marco and Shak


----------



## Nem

ttpos - Tony is most certainly a member, just not a great IT person so has never sorted his sig out, I'm not sure about the other one.

But as for Wak, if he's not done enough to the TT and this community to turn up at any event and be welcomed I don't know who would be.

*Stop being petty. Grow Up.*


----------



## les

V6RUL said:


> les said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well said Mark and I wholeheartedly agree.
> Members of both the TTOC and TTF who attended the 2nd Haigh Hall show (which I organised) may recall we even Gary and his Mrs VW Lupo's on the stand, did people complain if so they didn't do so to me. This year a Porsche was on the TTOC stand.
> 
> The NW guys and girls are a great bunch many will change cars over the years but I know that those who do will always be made welcome and invited to whatever event or meet as I have been and long may it continue.
> 
> 
> 
> And Julie's Merc was behind the Porsche on the stand and we were made very welcome by all.
> Steve
Click to expand...

and as the majority on the stand were NW TTers then I would expect nothing less and as is always the case with the NW crew Steve. I am not sure if that is the case in other areas as say in the NE maybe Andrew can confirm as a committee member of the TTOC. At least with the TTF all are welcome TTs or no TTs.


----------



## mighTy Tee

Marco34 said:


> Agreed Shak. My points have clearly been missed and am wasting my time expressing my opinion. As we aren't 3 year olds and are all intelligent beings, it's clear that people are not happy about the way events are organised.
> 
> I'm of the conclusion do what you want as I am starting not to care. I don't attend many big events but Haigh Hall is local and a great German car show. I shall be attending the car show next year, on the stand, whether it be TTOC or TTF, it's for charity after all.


I assume that you are not a TTOC member (I am not committee or anything so I dont know) and the event is only publicised privately within a TTOC only area of a forum (TTF or TTOC) and you are not aware of the date of the event so you miss it. You have now missed out. Whereas if the new rule is not implemented you can make your own informed decision on how to attend (or not attend) this public event.

It is up to you what you read in the events section. I didnt read the Haigh Hall thread as it is a long way away from me. At least that was my choice and I can not complain the event was not publicised to all.

I also assume putting it in a TTOC member restricted area would be frowned on by you as elitist?

The bottom line is this whole problem is politically motivated by one moderator who was aggrieved last year by the TTOC. There wasnt a problem to the vast majority 2 weeks ago and if things had been left alone there would not be a problem now.


----------



## Lollypop86

les said:


> V6RUL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> les said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well said Mark and I wholeheartedly agree.
> Members of both the TTOC and TTF who attended the 2nd Haigh Hall show (which I organised) may recall we even Gary and his Mrs VW Lupo's on the stand, did people complain if so they didn't do so to me. This year a Porsche was on the TTOC stand.
> 
> The NW guys and girls are a great bunch many will change cars over the years but I know that those who do will always be made welcome and invited to whatever event or meet as I have been and long may it continue.
> 
> 
> 
> And Julie's Merc was behind the Porsche on the stand and we were made very welcome by all.
> Steve
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> and as the majority on the stand were NW TTers then I would expect nothing less and as is always the case with the NW crew Steve. I am not sure if that is the case in other areas as say in the NE maybe Andrew can confirm as a committee member of the TTOC. At least with the TTF all are welcome TTs or no TTs.
Click to expand...

TTOC welcome everyone without their TT.....as Haigh hall was a TTOC stand the porsche and merc were very welcome with no grumbles.......you need to take your head out your arse beofre you draw on someone's car again......

J
xx


----------



## malstt

Dani, If you have read through the post you have quoted you will see on more than one occasion I posted that only TTOC members are allowed on the stand and as far as I was aware everyone was. If one non member sneaked on that doesn't change the clubs policy. I really don't see why this is now a problem after all this time. :?


----------



## A3DFU

mighTy Tee said:


> Marco34 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed Shak. My points have clearly been missed and am wasting my time expressing my opinion. As we aren't 3 year olds and are all intelligent beings, it's clear that people are not happy about the way events are organised.
> 
> I'm of the conclusion do what you want as I am starting not to care. I don't attend many big events but Haigh Hall is local and a great German car show. I shall be attending the car show next year, on the stand, whether it be TTOC or TTF, it's for charity after all.
> 
> 
> 
> I assume that you are not a TTOC member (I am not committee or anything so I dont know) and the event is only publicised privately within a TTOC only area of a forum (TTF or TTOC) and you are not aware of the date of the event so you miss it. You have now missed out. Whereas if the new rule is not implemented you can make your own informed decision on how to attend (or not attend) this public event.
> 
> It is up to you what you read in the events section. I didnt read the Haigh Hall thread as it is a long way away from me. At least that was my choice and I can not complain the event was not publicised to all.
> 
> I also assume putting it in a TTOC member restricted area would be frowned on by you as elitist?
> 
> The bottom line is this whole problem is politically motivated by one moderator who was aggrieved last year by the TTOC. There wasnt a problem to the vast majority 2 weeks ago and if things had been left alone there would not be a problem now.
Click to expand...

I have attended tens if not hundreds of TTOC events and organised big (to Hungary and France) and small cruises (locally).
When I attended TTOC meets I was usually at the club stand and on each and every such occasion I have personally signed up new members for the club,who came over to me and inquired about the club. Most of them TTF members who parked their car on the club stand.

I am clueless why the current committee want to cut themselves off from this opportunity to sign up new members by allowing existing members *only* on their stand? Makes no sense to me :?


----------



## Lollypop86

malstt said:


> Dani, If you have read through the post you have quoted you will see on more than one occasion I posted that only TTOC members are allowed on the stand and as far as I was aware everyone was. If one non member sneaked on that doesn't change the clubs policy. I really don't see why this is now a problem after all this time. :?


 [smiley=argue.gif] [smiley=book2.gif] [smiley=argue.gif] [smiley=book2.gif] [smiley=argue.gif] [smiley=book2.gif] [smiley=gossip.gif] [smiley=book2.gif] [smiley=argue.gif] [smiley=gossip.gif] [smiley=book2.gif] [smiley=argue.gif] [smiley=argue.gif] [smiley=book2.gif] [smiley=gossip.gif] [smiley=gossip.gif] [smiley=book2.gif] [smiley=argue.gif] [smiley=gossip.gif] [smiley=book2.gif]

Thats sums it up I think  lol Considering that people dont want to pay attention what is actually being written....on more tha one occassion

J
xx


----------



## Lollypop86

A3DFU said:


> I am clueless why the current committee want to cut themselves off from this opportunity to sign up new members by allowing existing members *only* on their stand? Makes no sense to me :?


You are a complete walking contradiction by putting that....you put the thread up about the TTF ADI stand and gala dinner table....why didnt you take the moral high ground and speak to John and whoever else needed to be involved to sort this issue out before it went public if you are as you claim to be mightier than thou......

J
xx


----------



## neilc

A3DFU said:


> I am clueless why the current committee want to cut themselves off from this opportunity to sign up new members by allowing existing members *only* on their stand? Makes no sense to me :?


But this is totally untrue Dani , I was a local rep for 3 years and actively promoted TTF members and anyone with a TT to attend to show them all the great things that the club does and the real passion we have for the car , club and brand.

We welcome all to the club without exception.

All we are saying is that at the major events that we book as the TTOC , our PAYING members get the privilege of attending that stand.

Every other car club in the UK would act in exactly the same way , a club is for members whether it's the WI , a book club or the TTOC.

I can attest to the fact that every single TTOC committee member is as committed as me to welcoming new TTF members to the club.


----------



## A3DFU

Jess, if *you* were to pay attention to what's been written then you would know that I want to give *anyone with a TT* the chance to be on a stand at ADI. And that is *a direct result* to the committee allowing only TTOC members on their stand.


----------



## Lollypop86

with you backhanded way of doing so? what *YOU* and *JOHN *have done is spineless, you can try and defend your actions as much as possible but you are as much to blame for this as John.

J
xx


----------



## jamman

This is all very sad, getting petty and ALL caused by one person's revenge mission.


----------



## A3DFU

jamman said:


> This is all very sad


I couldn't agree more, James!


----------



## mighTy Tee

A3DFU said:


> I have attended tens if not hundreds of TTOC events and organised big (to Hungary and France) and small cruises (locally).
> When I attended TTOC meets I was usually at the club stand and on each and every such occasion I have personally signed up new members for the club,who came over to me and inquired about the club. Most of them TTF members who parked their car on the club stand.
> 
> I am clueless why the current committee want to cut themselves off from this opportunity to sign up new members by allowing existing members *only* on their stand? Makes no sense to me :?


Dani - I am not doubting your past history of the TTOC (and it goes back even further than me) and I assume you are no longer a TTOC member after the "situation" last year (which if correct is understandable and is your prerogative).

If the TTOC books a stand then 80% of the places are taken up by non-TTOC members because they were issued on a first come first served basis to "Joe Public" then I would seriously have to question why I pay my TTOC membership fee.

Like around 900 other TT owners, I pay a membership and along with a regular magazine it also has to offer other privileges. That includes access to a (on a members only, first come first served basis) TTOC club stand.

If I believed you were right I would argue for you but I am afraid Dani, you and John are on this occasion wrong.

* Common Sense has gone out the window *


----------



## Nem

Lets look at things another way round.

The PLI cover the club has only covers us for stands consisting of our members.

So, lets say that any TT is welcome on the Club Stand, but if you're not currently a paying TTOC Member there will be a £15 admin charge per car.


----------



## les

Lollypop86 said:


> les said:
> 
> 
> 
> The NW guys and girls are a great bunch many will change cars over the years but I know that those who do will always be made welcome and invited to whatever event or meet as I have been and long may it continue.
> 
> 
> 
> And Julie's Merc was behind the Porsche on the stand and we were made very welcome by all.
> Steve
Click to expand...

and as the majority on the stand were NW TTers then I would expect nothing less and as is always the case with the NW crew Steve. I am not sure if that is the case in other areas as say in the NE maybe Andrew can confirm as a committee member of the TTOC. At least with the TTF all are welcome TTs or no TTs. [/quote]

TTOC welcome everyone without their TT.....as Haigh hall was a TTOC stand the porsche and merc were very welcome with no grumbles.......you need to take your head out your arse beofre you draw on someone's car again......

J
xx[/quote]

Well what a rude lady .... ermm correction women as clearly no lady. :roll: 
Now what you thought I wrote or interpenetrated in your own twisted way when I was in fact referring to the NW crew which includes TTOC and TTF members only as being very welcoming no matter what car they drive plus I was also questioning if that is the case in other areas. All are welcome in the NW TT or no TT TTF or TTOC it matters not all are seen to be welcome. Now as for removing my head from my arse I am sure yours could accommodate a far bigger head than mine :-*


----------



## Marco34

A3DFU said:


> jamman said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is all very sad
> 
> 
> 
> I couldn't agree more, James!
Click to expand...

You are probably mistaken in thinking the revenge mission is John. I've spent 5 years in the North West TT group watching the divide be made and it didn't come from John.

Mighty Tee, if you think I want elitism you clearly can't follow my post.

To sum up, I can't be bothered with it anymore. I've got better things to put my energy into. Agree it's sad to get to this level. I've said what I wanted to say and that's that, it will always come back to John and him wanting revenge, revenge for what exactly? He's an intelligent man with many interests, why would he just stir things up. It's no coincidence that many others all have an opinion and largely from the North West. They've spent time with Dani and John to create their own opinions (not from twisted historical events) to realise what they trying to achieve. Maybe the TTOC need to look closer to home for their source of issues.

Whether you agree or disagree, that's my final thoughts on the matter.


----------



## A3DFU

mighTy Tee said:


> If the TTOC books a stand then 80% of the places are taken up by non-TTOC members because they were issued on a first come first served basis to "Joe Public" then I would seriously have to question why I pay my TTOC membership fee.


Richard, I have no problem with this at all but in all those years I've attended ADI (first with Club Audi and later with TTOC) there has never been a single occasion where all stand places were taken up.


----------



## Lollypop86

les said:


> Well what a rude lady .... ermm correction women as clearly no lady. :roll:
> Now what you thought I wrote or interpenetrated in your own twisted way when I was in fact referring to the NW crew which includes TTOC and TTF members only as being very welcoming no matter what car they drive plus I was also questioning if that is the case in other areas. All are welcome in the NW TT or no TT TTF or TTOC it matters not all are seen to be welcome. Now as for removing my head from my arse I am sure yours could accommodate a far bigger head than mine :-*


Your questioning is wrong its plain and simple, when I said I'd heard stories about you I meant it and none of them good, pre-empting your response of "I've heard stories about you" good you should have I am proud to be TTOC and proud to be supporting them and the fact that their place on TTF has come under question. I am a paying TTOC member and I much like many other would be appauled if I were paying to get perks of having a spot on a club stand to then be surround by non-paying members......A first come first serve basis for a club stand is more than reasonable but it appears than its either TTF's way (John and Dani it appears) or no way.......as I stated before in response to Dani this should have been sorted and discussed amongst those decision makers before petty actions such as event rules and locking of threads happened. The way this has come about is the cowards way and it is clear that from the TTOC committee response that they were all clear on the guidelines and from what date when it came to TTOC stands and have the evidence to back that up......John's response was OK, but his response shouldnt have been a response but an annoucement once a discussion had taken palce between the decision makers of which Dani and John for the TTF are not, was John trying to help me sunday with my !squeak? ofcourse and kudos to him for always being helpful and I will never challenge that fact, what I am challenging is the way in which this has been handled which it could have been handled a lot differently. Peoples noses have been put out of joint on both sides and that could have been avoided had this of been handled differently, and like I've said before it was written all over John's face on Sunday that something was going down when Nick turned up to the meeting point. I was the only southern person to attend CGCS (that I'm aware of) and was made to feel welcome by the majority of people who were there for the show and when the RR Day was hosted in a southern location allowing more southern people to attend they were all very welcoming of the northern people coming if they knew them previously or not.......You appear to live in this little castle that its all about the NW and the NW TTF/TTOC can do no wrong.......You will find yourself that you are wrong and need to open your eyes and your brain to other peoples view points.

I'm all woman sweetheart, if you removed your head from your arse you'd have known that Sunday..... Do I have small arse? no I dont, do I wish to have a small arse? no I dont I prefer to be all womanly and attractive to the right people and not leaches


----------



## les

Lollypop86 said:


> les said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well what a rude lady .... ermm correction women as clearly no lady. :roll:
> Now what you thought I wrote or interpenetrated in your own twisted way when I was in fact referring to the NW crew which includes TTOC and TTF members only as being very welcoming no matter what car they drive plus I was also questioning if that is the case in other areas. All are welcome in the NW TT or no TT TTF or TTOC it matters not all are seen to be welcome. Now as for removing my head from my arse I am sure yours could accommodate a far bigger head than mine :-*
> 
> 
> 
> Your questioning is wrong its plain and simple, when I said I'd heard stories about you I meant it and none of them good, pre-empting your response of "I've heard stories about you" good you should have I am proud to be TTOC and proud to be supporting them and the fact that their place on TTF has come under question. I am a paying TTOC member and I much like many other would be appauled if I were paying to get perks of having a spot on a club stand to then be surround by non-paying members......A first come first serve basis for a club stand is more than reasonable but it appears than its either TTF's way (John and Dani it appears) or no way.......as I stated before in response to Dani this should have been sorted and discussed amongst those decision makers before petty actions such as event rules and locking of threads happened. The way this has come about is the cowards way and it is clear that from the TTOC committee response that they were all clear on the guidelines and from what date when it came to TTOC stands and have the evidence to back that up......John's response was OK, but his response shouldnt have been a response but an annoucement once a discussion had taken palce between the decision makers of which Dani and John for the TTF are not, was John trying to help me sunday with my !squeak? ofcourse and kudos to him for always being helpful and I will never challenge that fact, what I am challenging is the way in which this has been handled which it could have been handled a lot differently. Peoples noses have been put out of joint on both sides and that could have been avoided had this of been handled differently, and like I've said before it was written all over John's face on Sunday that something was going down when Nick turned up to the meeting point. I was the only southern person to attend CGCS (that I'm aware of) and was made to feel welcome by the majority of people who were there for the show and when the RR Day was hosted in a southern location allowing more southern people to attend they were all very welcoming of the northern people coming if they knew them previously or not.......You appear to live in this little castle that its all about the NW and the NW TTF/TTOC can do no wrong.......You will find yourself that you are wrong and need to open your eyes and your brain to other peoples view points.
> 
> I'm all woman sweetheart, if you removed your head from your arse you'd have known that Sunday..... Do I have small arse? no I dont, do I wish to have a small arse? no I dont I prefer to be all womanly and attractive to the right people and not leaches
Click to expand...

YAWWWNNNNNNNNN! [smiley=end.gif]


----------



## fixitagaintomoz

Well.

I can see 2 sides to a very complicated story here.

the TTOC has its own provate stand which it has organised, and will only let TTOC members onto. not a problem at all in my books.

the TTF doesnt want the TTOC talking about it on its forum as non TTF members cant put their car on the stand.

ultimately the thread wasnt soley about the TTOC stand, it was about the show, and the travel arrangements eitherside- both public affairs.

had the thread been soley about the stand and nothing else, with them organising who was bringing what etc. then i could understand it being moved. but it wasnt.

i for one was considering joining the TTOC due to the ability to then have my car considered to be on a stand at major events next year, and the thread is what made me think like that..... the thread is what made me want to join and pay the £15.....

lets face it the TTOC provate area can't be that good thats why they all post on the TTF...... and i, as a TTF member, like having the TTOC members, the real TT enthusiasts who pay to be recognised as such, on the forum to include thier views and experience.

i don't know anything of what happened years ago, and i don't need to know. what i do need as a TTF member and a *potential *TTOC member is to see that there is stability in the teams that own/run/manage these 2 outlets.


----------



## les

There are those who are only to happy to listen to hearsay (crap group we know) then there are those who know because they were there when it happened and know the people involved. So easy to listen to one side of any story and form opinions and take sides. 
Some on here have done much to promote and support the TTOC over the years. I believe I have done more than my fare share in my time and not just as the NW rep for 3.1/2 years as those who know will testify for me. I believe if you get something out of something put something back and maybe more than you got out of it.
I saw this once great club (TTOC) going down the pan and decided enough was enough not just because I sold my TT but because well enough was enough. 
I will continue to support the NW guys and girls as I have made many friends who know me and know me first hand not just the spite that often comes from others. I will also do what I can to support the NW people for as long as they want me to and was only too happy to organise the run on Tuesday evening for them. I didn't do that for the TTOC or the TTF I did it for the people of the NW. Now that's what a true club means to me. I could say a lot more but to be honest like Marco I have no need to justify anything.


----------



## Callum-TT

les said:


> There are those who are only to happy to listen to hearsay (crap group we know) then there are those who know because they were there when it happened and know the people involved. So easy to listen to one side of any story and form opinions and take sides.
> Some on here have done much to promote and support the TTOC over the years. I believe I have done more than my fare share in my time and not just as the NW rep for 3.1/2 years as those who know will testify for me. I believe if you get something out of something put something back and maybe more than you got out of it.
> I saw this once great club (TTOC) going down the pan and decided enough was enough not just because I sold my TT but because well enough was enough.
> I will continue to support the NW guys and girls as I have made many friends who know me and know me first hand not just the spite that often comes from others. I will also do what I can to support the NW people for as long as they want me to and was only too happy to organise the run on Tuesday evening for them. I didn't do that for the TTOC or the TTF I did it for the people of the NW. Now that's what a true club means to me. I could say a lot more but to be honest like Marco I have no need to justify anything.


Hoestly Les who gives a flying fook what happened years ago? I know I don't as I imagine most of the TTOC members and TTF posters.

Now lets look at this logically yeah.

Ultimate Dubs this year was a TTOC "Main Event" and a thread was set up on here in the events section, voting for those to be on the stand was only allowed on the TTOC forum so only TTOC members were permitted to vote or apply to have their cars on the stand.

This show thread was set up, posted on and not a single complaint was made by any of the moderation or admin team.

GTI International which is normally a TTOC stand show I believe had a couple of non-members on it due to not enough take up of club members.

EvenTT this is solely organised by the TTOC and as such all members got in for a discount, non-members were encouraged to attend but had to pay the standard fee.

At no point has anyone said we are barring anyone not a member from the stand, all that has been said is that everyone is welcome to become a web or premium member of the club to attend the main shows where numbers are limited, shows that a stand has been booked under the TTOC banner.

Surely this is not too much to ask is it?

If anyone on the day wants to turn up and join the club then I'm sure they would be welcomed with open arms on the stand if there was a space.

All this bickering seems to stem not from policy issues or changes either recently or years ago but from ill feeling between some members including yourself.

If you read the comments here nearly all (if not all) the negative comments towards the TTOC seem to stem from the NW section of the country.

I honestly dont know what all the bitching is about and honestly I couldn't care less, all I know is those of you bitching and name calling are just making going to end up driving away TTF & TTOC members and honestly it doesn't make me or anyone outside the NW feel welcome to attend any of your meets and you can see a clear clique there.

So lets all please pick up our dummies, John H stop trying to run this place like your own and quit all the petty bitching for the sake of the future of the forum and the TTOC.

For christs sake it's a bloody car club not parliment.


----------



## jamman

Very true Callum


----------



## Nyxx

jamman said:


> I find this all very sad and this petty action I'm my mind has just opened up old wounds that I thought were healing.
> 
> It smacks to me of not being about the TTF or TTOC but purely of John getting his own back as said above this has been In place 4 years and only now it's a problem.
> 
> Sorry if this offends John but it's just my view of these sorry proceedings you have always been a great help to me and I appreciate that but something about this just doesn't sit right.


Sumed up perfect.
After no one went up for committee this year apart from the people who where all ready on it. I also thought that "we" had all moved on and it was all in the past.
But ofc we are talking John and how funny that Danni starts posted up events with new TTF banner.

Frankly it's beyond childish. It's damm right imbarrising. O and then comes along Les.....lol, let's see if Luv my cu....comes out the wood work. ^^
How old are you? Yes you Dani and John. Ffs you need help, you really do.


----------



## les

Nyxx said:


> jamman said:
> 
> 
> 
> I find this all very sad and this petty action I'm my mind has just opened up old wounds that I thought were healing.
> 
> It smacks to me of not being about the TTF or TTOC but purely of John getting his own back as said above this has been In place 4 years and only now it's a problem.
> 
> Sorry if this offends John but it's just my view of these sorry proceedings you have always been a great help to me and I appreciate that but something about this just doesn't sit right.
> 
> 
> 
> Sumed up perfect.
> After no one went up for committee this year apart from the people who where all ready on it. I also thought that "we" had all moved on and it was all in the past.
> But ofc we are talking John and and how funny that Danni starts posted up events with new TTF banner.
> 
> Frankly it's beyond childish. It's damm right imbarrising. O and then comes along Les.....lol
Click to expand...

So you feel the need to post "I also thought that "we" had all moved on and it was all in the past." "O and then comes along Les.....lol" so why are you keeping it going then? :lol: Fact is mate there are those spreading untruths and only those who know the truth know telling it as it is. So if you want to continue the snide remarks you carry on be my guest take the floor as that's it nuff said. Move on FFS that's if you really want to. :wink:


----------



## Nyxx

Yes les "we" as I hoped everyone had moved on, put it all in the passed but like Callum pointed out you live in the passed pointing out thing from years ago and like John and Dani cannot move on.

You say " Keep it going" it ended with the voting last year for me. Unlike you.


----------



## les

Nyxx said:


> Yes les "we" as I hoped everyone had moved on, put it all in the passed but like Callum pointed out you live in the passed pointing out thing from years ago and like John and Dani cannot move on.


Then along came Nyxx.lol


----------



## Nyxx

I've said what I think and that's that because all you want is to make trouble les and I will not fuel your fire.

Have a nice weekend huges and kiss's

Kind regards
Dave.


----------



## Lollypop86

les said:


> Then along came Nyxx.lol


Havent your batteries run out yet?

J
xx


----------



## les

Nyxx said:


> I've said what I think and that's that because all you want is to make trouble les and I will not fuel your fire.
> 
> Have a nice weekend huges and kiss's
> 
> Kind regards
> Dave.


Your welcome to your opinion no matter how misconceived it is :wink: . I am welcome to mine and mine is based on what I have been party too not on what I have heard 3rd or 4th hand. Enjoy your weekend am off to the pub. :idea:


----------



## Callum-TT

les said:


> Nyxx said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've said what I think and that's that because all you want is to make trouble les and I will not fuel your fire.
> 
> Have a nice weekend huges and kiss's
> 
> Kind regards
> Dave.
> 
> 
> 
> Your welcome to your opinion no matter how misconceived it is :wink: . I am welcome to mine and mine is based on what I have been party too not on what I have heard 3rd or 4th hand. Enjoy your weekend am off to the pub. :idea:
Click to expand...

I see how you basically skipped over my post and continue to mention gripes from years ago and not any grievance with TTOC policy?

Basically proving my Point really

Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App


----------



## audimad

I thought all this bickering had stopped long ago.


----------



## Callum-TT

audimad said:


> I thought all this bickering had stopped long ago.


I didn't even know about until a week or two ago.

Some seem unable to let sleeping dogs lie sadly.

Possibly to the detriment of the TT community

Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App


----------



## Lollypop86

audimad said:


> I thought all this bickering had stopped long ago.


as did the rest of the world and then John made it all real again lol

J
xx


----------



## Callum-TT

Ok see everyone how NOBODY has questioned me about my statement that all these issues are personal and not related to TTOC policy.

Neither John H, Danni, or even Les have replied to me.

So let's all take note of this. Guys grow up and let the community grow as nobodies gripe is bigger than the community.

Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App


----------



## jamman

Hopefully Vertical will have reviewed this mess soon and it will be sorted out one way or another without the further need for anymore petty comments or rudeness.

The last objective will also be achieved if Les stays in the pub. (That's my attempt at humour btw)


----------



## John-H

One thing I forgot to mention from my discussion with Nick was that with the policy vote coming up he'd had a look at the club constitution and it requires as an "aim" that the club brings together TT owners both within and *outside* the membership of the club. He was going to mention that at the meeting as an argument to allow TT forum members on club stands.

It's hard to see how the TTOC members only on stands policy is compatable with the constitution. One for members to ponder perhaps?

Another point he made was a plea for only TT Forum members to be allowed in addition to club members i.e. not just anyone with a TT because the TTF uniquely exists in partnership with the club. It was rejected by the committee.

An honorable effort by the chairman to do the right thing. The policy decision was taken last week, not four years ago, as all this consideration shows.

It's unfortunate because the TTF and TTOC are somewhat unique amongst car forums and clubs in that it's unusual to have a car club that is allied so closely with another organisation's forum. Comparisons with other car clubs or forums with their singular existence and members only policy are therefore invalid. Our's has traditionally been a partnership with benefits passed from one to the other. A symbiotic relationship.

What I personally think should have happened in 2010, when the TTF and TTOC were declared "As one" and TTOC logo and banners appeared on the forum with the TTOC taking administration responsibility and a share of the forum's advertising revenue, would have been to declare all TTF members club members too, with tiered membership for the extra paid for benefits like magazine etc. Importantly this could have stood a better chance of cohesion with less perceived rivalry if we were all "club members". Perhaps we all missed a trick there?

Since Jae sold the forum the club has moved to distance itself from TTF, setting up it's own forum and dropping admin and moderation responsibility for TTF and even the advertising revenue share scheme. Removing shared event benefits from forum members is perhaps the latest.

It was this latest move which sparked off complaints (which have to be addressed in members interests) and the latest "official" policy decision, that left the forum with the difficult decision of how best to support all TT Forum members - it's main responsibility.

That's the reason why we changed the Events section rules and why we made enquiries to book a stand at the ADI - to support the majority of forum members.

This was not my decision alone but a group decision including admin and moderators. The forum owners are loathed to become involved or interfere with membership issues and forum policy. They interact with the commercial side of the forum and avoid mixing "church and state". We do have a regular dialogue however on areas of overlap and technical issues.

The moderator and admin team have discussed the issue again because the club are unhappy with restricting members only events to the TTOC's own forum. We have to prioritise support to the majority of TT Forum members however.

In the spirit of compromise we have decided to set up a TTOC members only Events section within the TTOC area for its exclusive use.The club is still encouraged to post events on the main TT Forum Events section but the rule still applies that TT Forum members must be included for any event posted there.


----------



## The Blue Bandit

... well, (as expected) this thread has pretty much descended into mud-slinging, petty posturing and re-living past events, which is of no use to anyone ...
... like one or two others, I'm not fully aware of the facts and history regarding the acrimonious split between the TTOC and some of its members- nor do I need to be ... for this thread to be of any constructive use we all need to stop living in the past and look to what is genuinely best for the forum in the future ... because it certainly isn't dredging up ancient history and playing 'he said- she said' ...

I'm no staunch 'drum banging' dyed-in-the-wool TTOC member, but what I find slightly hypocritical is the stance of 'we want posts that are inclusive of everybody, to promote complete freedom of speech, and an 'all-inclusive' evironment within the forum (quite rightly so) but then deem that any posts that refer to TTOC clubstands being _primarily _for paid up TTOC members will be punished by excluding these posts from the events section... (_excluding _them in the same way you felt was so abhorrent in the first place) ...

Also, I don't fully buy that non-members are _excluded _... when you look at web membership starting at £15, a cost which can be pretty much recouped by the discounts offered on tickets to the major shows (which are currently being accused of being 'closed shop') it's hardly an elitist club that's only the preserve of the wealthy ...
... I sort of feel that if you actually _want _to park on the TTOC club stand, why wouldn't you join the club? Because ultimately all of these events make provision for non-members, and they are as free to attend the event as TTOC members ...

... when you look at an event like 'Ultimate Dubs' where there are literally only five spaces for members- are you seriously advocating that we should throw some of these precious spaces open to non-club members? A 900 strong club potentially being represented at a national show by 5 owners who don't even belong to the club?? ...

... I may be being monumentally naive here, but if forum users really genuinely _are _feeling offended, excluded and 'out in the cold' about the fact that there are TTOC threads are in the events section, then why not let let the forum users speak up for themselves and have a poll to either continue posting events by the TTOC in the events sections of the forum, or to vote to banish them to the TTOC section of the site.

I've said it previously, I'm a TTF member first, and a TTOC member second- but to my mind the events section is for _all _things TT related ... that is after all what an open forum is for ... to my mind, it's like what is shown on TV, if it doesn't appeal to me, or I can't relate to it then I ignore it ... I certainly don't keep looking at it gnashing my teeth, feeling excluded and like it's offensive and should be moved elsewhere ...

... As has others have stated- ALL of the events where the TTOC has a club stand are open to everybody, you can partake in the thread, attend the event, and ultimately- if you actually _want _to park on the TTOC, you are made more than welcome to join the club ... I think to feel that you didn't want to park up with the masses at these shows, and that you really felt a need to be parked on the TTOC stand- but felt indignant that you didn't want to part with £15 you'd have to be pretty petty minded ... If you want to attend these events, but feel strongly that you don't want to be forced into TTOC membership, proviso is made for doing so.

... We need to start moving forward with this and stop looking backwards- I think we all just want to make the forum the best, and most user friendly environment it can be... currently, it's becoming fragmented and hard to follow- I currently have multiple AITP threads all going at the same time... there's a thread in the TTOC area, and then also the thread in the general events section ... surely, we need to consolidate, and unify as many of these threads as possible- that's how we will achieve true unity moving forward, and we'll have every enthusiast contributing to a common cause?? :?

Steve


----------



## mighTy Tee

John - In the 12 years I have been involved with the TTF and TTOC, I have never EVER seen a "TTOC only" event.

*ADI, Audi in the Park, Haigh Hall etc - all these are PUBLIC EVENTS. this means that any Tom, Dick and Harry can go to the show regardless of vehicle they own or any club they belong to.*

The fact that the TTOC wishes to book a stand for exclusive use by it's members is not elitist it is a TTOC area (promoting the TTOC) within a *PUBLIC EVENT*.

Vertical Scope can equally book a stand and use this to publicise their forum(s) and would be within their right to insist only members of their forum(s) can display on their stand.

The fact that there is a cross over of membership is irrelevant.

This whole argument by you and your supporters about TTOC only events is based on nothing but the myth that there are exclusive TTOC member only events.


----------



## The Blue Bandit

Richard has hit the nail on the head yet again- there is no such thing as a TTOC exclusive event ... EVERYBODY is welcome to any of these shows, so they have relevance to all ... whether you choose to opt in or out of joining the TTOC is an entirely personal choice and is in no way exclusive of any TTF member or anybody else.


----------



## jamman

John you know I like you and I do class you as a very good "forum" friend but I think you are digging yourself a hole here mate.


----------



## Nyxx

mighTy Tee said:


> John - In the 12 years I have been involved with the TTF and TTOC, I have never EVER seen a "TTOC only" event.
> 
> *ADI, Audi in the Park, Haigh Hall etc - all these are PUBLIC EVENTS. this means that any Tom, Dick and Harry can go to the show regardless of vehicle they own or any club they belong to.*
> 
> The fact that the TTOC wishes to book a stand for exclusive use by it's members is not elitist it is a TTOC area (promoting the TTOC) within a *PUBLIC EVENT*.
> 
> Vertical Scope can equally book a stand and use this to publicise their forum(s) and would be within their right to insist only members of their forum(s) can display on their stand.
> 
> The fact that there is a cross over of membership is irrelevant.
> 
> This whole argument by you and your supporters about TTOC only events is based on nothing but the myth that there are exclusive TTOC member only events.


Worth a bump on another page.


----------



## Lollypop86

Who is this "WE" you speak off......so far its only you, Dani and Les who have pipped up about anything.....oh and Ikon but not really he was just kind of doing his job but not really......so who is this we? Many of the TTOC committee have commented so why are your "WE" leaving you high and dry to take the agro?

And yep richard got it in 1......but policy chance and rules are the decision of the owners not of admin and moderators as you dont run the TTF you just administer and moderate it

J
xx


----------



## V6RUL

Don't worry Jess, there are a few of us on the TTF that want the best for the TTF, but not to the detriment of the TTOC, unless of course you feel that this is not the case.

An example of a TTOC closed shop event..
Ultimate Dubs.. as voting could only be cast on the TTOC site.

I would like all events be open to TT peeps without having to join the TTOC, as surely this is the best exposure for the forum/club to be exposed to Joe public.
Steve


----------



## Ikon66

Lollypop86 said:


> oh and Ikon but not really he was just kind of doing his job but not really....


You're so kind :wink:


----------



## Callum-TT

V6RUL said:


> Don't worry Jess, there are a few of us on the TTF that want the best for the TTF, but not to the detriment of the TTOC, unless of course you feel that this is not the case.
> 
> An example of a TTOC closed shop event..
> Ultimate Dubs.. as voting could only be cast on the TTOC site.
> 
> I would like all events be open to TT peeps without having to join the TTOC, as surely this is the best exposure for the forum/club to be exposed to Joe public.
> Steve


The only issue with that Steve is that how would you, me or any paid member feel if a non-member took a place on the club stand and there wasn't a space for us?

I know I personally wouldn't be impressed and would obviously consider not renewing so in essence opening all stands up to non-members negates the need for a club.

I joined the TTOC because I wanted to be able to go and be on the club stand at the best shows. Surely there has to be some perks to membership?


----------



## jamman

Ultimate dubs a TTOC closed shop event

WHAT R U GOING ON ABOUT

The stand maybe there only 5 cars on the bloody thing.


----------



## Lollypop86

Ikon66 said:


> Lollypop86 said:
> 
> 
> 
> oh and Ikon but not really he was just kind of doing his job but not really....
> 
> 
> 
> You're so kind :wink:
Click to expand...

I know right L Y really tho 

J
xx


----------



## Lollypop86

Callum-TT said:


> I joined the TTOC because I wanted to be able to go and be on the club stand at the best shows. Surely there has to be some perks to membership?


EXACTLY!!!!!!

J
xx


----------



## Nyxx

To be far Steve it was a very small stand think it was only 5 cars. Hosted by the TTOC, so it's easy to see why they had to be a bit selective. It's a bit of an odd show for 90% of TT's to be at in the first place. 

Five reply's since I started this reply....better go lie down :roll:


----------



## Spandex

John, I think you need to stop trying to create policies that don't address a specific forum need. If TTF members are upset that they can't go on TTOC stands (at public shows) then that's something they need to take up with the TTOC. If TTF members are upset that these stands are 'advertised' in what they believe is the wrong area of the forum they need to take it up with the TTF mods/admin. So, have you received any complaints about this?

That being said, I think the TTOC members need to stop the melodrama about 'not being allowed' to do this and that on your own stands. This is about where threads can be put on a forum, that's all. Unfortunately I think a few posters enjoy the melodrama a bit too much and are happy to stoke the fires...


----------



## V6RUL

Callum-TT said:


> V6RUL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't worry Jess, there are a few of us on the TTF that want the best for the TTF, but not to the detriment of the TTOC, unless of course you feel that this is not the case.
> 
> An example of a TTOC closed shop event..
> Ultimate Dubs.. as voting could only be cast on the TTOC site.
> 
> I would like all events be open to TT peeps without having to join the TTOC, as surely this is the best exposure for the forum/club to be exposed to Joe public.
> Steve
> 
> 
> 
> The only issue with that Steve is that how would you, me or any paid member feel if a non-member took a place on the club stand and there wasn't a space for us?
> 
> I know I personally wouldn't be impressed and would obviously consider not renewing so in essence opening all stands up to non-members negates the need for a club.
> 
> I joined the TTOC because I wanted to be able to go and be on the club stand at the best shows. Surely there has to be some perks to membership?
Click to expand...

TTOC stands are managed on a first come basis..so what about a TTOC member who exceeds the stand size..they are politely refused or go on a reserve list, the same as a TTF event.
I think events should be open to all and at the same price, TTOC membership gives you mags and discount privileges.
Anybody should be able to go to any show.
Steve


----------



## V6RUL

jamman said:


> Ultimate dubs a TTOC closed shop event
> 
> WHAT R U GOING ON ABOUT
> 
> The stand maybe there only 5 cars on the bloody thing.


The indoor stand is limited to 5 but outdoor stands are available too for more forum/club cars.
Steve


----------



## V6RUL

Nyxx said:


> To be far Steve it was a very small stand think it was only 5 cars. Hosted by the TTOC, so it's easy to see why they had to be a bit selective. It's a bit of an odd show for 90% of TT's to be at in the first place.
> 
> Five reply's since I started this reply....better go lie down :roll:


This was an example of a closed show..end of.
Steve


----------



## Callum-TT

V6RUL said:


> jamman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ultimate dubs a TTOC closed shop event
> 
> WHAT R U GOING ON ABOUT
> 
> The stand maybe there only 5 cars on the bloody thing.
> 
> 
> 
> The indoor stand is limited to 5 but outdoor stands are available too for more forum/club cars.
> Steve
Click to expand...

So maybe this is a possibility for next year?

Top 5 displayed inside and everyone else outside displaying the club.

Obviously if accepted by UD


----------



## Wallsendmag

We tried to book inside and outside stands at Ultimate Dubs this year but we're told we could only have one or the other .


----------



## neilc

Just yesterday I arranged for a previous sponsor to come back to the TTF after previously leaving. I have been working on this for a few weeks now and discussed with the forum owners as you would imagine bringing in much needed extra revenue.

Being honest I don't know why I bothered , I really don't .

John mentions in his recent post about having to put TTF members first well unless it's escaped anyone's attention the vast majority of TTOC members are TTF members too.

This exposure is what sponsors want and it's what the forum wants too no matter what anyone else says.

So I will no longer be posting on this subject and will leave the forum owners to decide the best course of action to ensure us sponsors get what we pay for.


----------



## V6RUL

Wallsendmag said:


> We tried to book inside and outside stands at Ultimate Dubs this year but we're told we could only have one or the other .


This is because the TTOC leave everything to the last minute.
Plenty of clubs have both until plots are full then you are politely refused or go on a reserve list.
Steve


----------



## mighTy Tee

*Edited - I apologise Steve (V6RUL) as you are a TTOC Member*

Why do non TTOC members think they are automatically entitled to have access to (be a parasite on) TTOC resources such a showing their car on a TTOC stand (represent the TTOC) at a public show?

If non members want to be on a stand at a public event where the TTOC has a stand they have several choices. (a) Spend £15 and join the TTOC, (b) Join another club or organisation and exhibit on their stand , (c) organise their own stand and then choose who else they feel is privileged enough to join them on that stand.


----------



## Nem

V6RUL said:


> Wallsendmag said:
> 
> 
> 
> We tried to book inside and outside stands at Ultimate Dubs this year but we're told we could only have one or the other .
> 
> 
> 
> This is because the TTOC leave everything to the last minute.
> Plenty of clubs have both until plots are full then you are politely refused or go on a reserve list.
> Steve
Click to expand...

No it's not.

I asked specifically this year and was told no club can have an indoor and outdoor plot due to demand of the show.


----------



## jamman

V6RUL is a member (in more than one way)

I'll try a new fact, yes you are right Steve TTOC couldn't organize a piss up in a brewery how they manage to win best club and stands so many times is beyond me they are a bunch of clueless individuals who seem to have their heads so far up their arses they can't tell night from day whilst being equally ignorant and arrogant to match, clueless muppets.

Looking back at that description maybe you should stand :wink:


----------



## V6RUL

mighTy Tee said:


> Assumption: Steve (V6RUL) is not a TTOC member (if I am incorrect I will apologise).
> 
> I assume Steve you are not short of a bob or two as you spend thousands on your TT. However your don't/won't pay £15 for an annual membership of the TTOC?
> 
> Then why as a non TTOC member, do you think you are automatically entitled to have access to (be a parasite on) TTOC resources such a showing your car on a TTOC stand (represent the TTOC) at a public show?
> 
> If you want to be on a stand at a public event where the TTOC has a stand you have several choices. (a) Spend £15 and join the TTOC, (b) Join another club or organisation and exhibit on their stand , (c) organise your own stand and then choose who else you feel is privileged enough to join you on that stand.


Erm...if you can read, you will see my TTOC membership in my TTOC banner and the TTOC logo under my avatar and my username is coloured blue. 
My number plate on my TT has TTOC in the signature strip under my reg...you may see this if your at AITP tomoz where I will be on the TTOC stand as a MEMBER..
I am a TTF and TTOC member.
Steve


----------



## mighTy Tee

My apologies Steve - and I have edited my last post accordingly


----------



## Hoggy

neilc said:


> John mentions in his recent post about having to put TTF members first well unless it's escaped anyone's attention the vast majority of TTOC members are TTF members too.


Hi, TTOC membership has increased greatly over the last couple of years due to TTF members joining to get Market Place & PM access on the TTF.
TTF first, TTOC 2nd.. Check the number of posts everyday on TTOC site compared to the TTF. 
Hoggy.


----------



## Lollypop86

ok lets put it this way in plain english for everyone to see....

...TTF great for the forum and the banter and getting answers on issues etc etc

...TTOC great for club stand attendance at the major shows each year and TTOC stuff to buy in the shop including clothing at a much lesser cost than Audi....

Everyone happy? Who gives a rats behind if the TTF has 100,000,000 more posts every day than the TTOC forum....the fact of the matter stands that TTF is most peoples knowledge base and TTOC is most peoples show base.....simples!

J
xx


----------



## Hoggy

Hi Jess, You are a TTOC reg rep & a TTF member. 
How many times have you posted on the TTOC site to inform everyone of the meets you organise.
Not many would turn up if you only posted on the TTOC site, as hardly any would see it.
Hoggy.


----------



## mighTy Tee

Hoggy said:


> Hi Jess, You are a TTOC reg rep & a TTF member.
> How many times have you posted on the TTOC site to inform everyone of the meets you organise.
> Not many would turn up if you only posted on the TTOC site, as hardly any would see it.
> Hoggy.


Hoggy, I dont think that is in dispute, and when I was rep I welcomed everyone (as does Jess) to join us, regardless of what car they drove and TTOC membership (I had a guy from SELOC with an Elise once turn out to an event of mine).

What is in dispute here is non TTOC member's cars being allowed to represent the TTOC in preference to TTOC members on a stand at a public event which has been booked by the TTOC to promote the TTOC.

Richard


----------



## V6RUL

Nem said:


> V6RUL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wallsendmag said:
> 
> 
> 
> We tried to book inside and outside stands at Ultimate Dubs this year but we're told we could only have one or the other .
> 
> 
> 
> This is because the TTOC leave everything to the last minute.
> Plenty of clubs have both until plots are full then you are politely refused or go on a reserve list.
> Steve
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No it's not.
> 
> I asked specifically this year and was told no club can have an indoor and outdoor plot due to demand of the show.
Click to expand...

Exactly, you left it too late as most clubs book in the year before.
Steve


----------



## Hoggy

Hi MTee, I agree, TTOC members only on TTOC stand. Makes sense to me & did from the 1st time it was mentioned.
It's just Neilc post stated the majority of TTOC members are also on the TTF, of course they are they came to the TTF first & spend most of their time on the TTF.
Hoggy.


----------



## V6RUL

mighTy Tee said:
 

> My apologies Steve - and I have edited my last post accordingly


No worries.
There is an unbalanced number of posters erring towards the TTOC creating a bulldozer and I think both forum/club should compromise and become more symbiotic and if it doesn't happen then there are going to be issues in the future.
Steve


----------



## Lollypop86

Hoggy said:


> Hi Jess, You are a TTOC reg rep & a TTF member.
> How many times have you posted on the TTOC site to inform everyone of the meets you organise.
> Not many would turn up if you only posted on the TTOC site, as hardly any would see it.
> Hoggy.


I think you'll find hoggster the majority if not all of those who come to the Thames valley meets are TTOC members.....since taking over there has been a very small number of non members so rewording what I've written doesn't change what I've said......

J
Xx


----------



## jamman

V6RUL said:


> mighTy Tee said:
> 
> 
> 
> My apologies Steve - and I have edited my last post accordingly
> 
> 
> 
> No worries.
> There is an unbalanced number of posters erring towards the TTOC creating a bulldozer and I think both forum/club should compromise and become more symbiotic and if it doesn't happen then there are going to be issues in the future.
> Steve
Click to expand...

Steve what forum members have you seen complaining about this situation prior to "someone"
deciding to change the rules, block and move posts.

Please show me as far as I know there weren't many if any.


----------



## Hoggy

Lollypop86 said:


> Hoggy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Jess, You are a TTOC reg rep & a TTF member.
> How many times have you posted on the TTOC site to inform everyone of the meets you organise.
> Not many would turn up if you only posted on the TTOC site, as hardly any would see it.
> Hoggy.
> 
> 
> 
> I think you'll find hoggster the majority if not all of those who come to the Thames valley meets are TTOC members.....since taking over there has been a very small number of non members so rewording what I've written doesn't change what I've said......
> 
> J
> Xx
Click to expand...

Hi, Just pointing out, without the TTF, TTOC would just fade away.
Hoggy.


----------



## V6RUL

Lollypop86 said:


> Hoggy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Jess, You are a TTOC reg rep & a TTF member.
> How many times have you posted on the TTOC site to inform everyone of the meets you organise.
> Not many would turn up if you only posted on the TTOC site, as hardly any would see it.
> Hoggy.
> 
> 
> 
> I think you'll find hoggster the majority if not all of those who come to the Thames valley meets are TTOC members.....since taking over there has been a very small number of non members so rewording what I've written doesn't change what I've said......
> 
> J
> Xx
Click to expand...

Jess posts on TTOC 193, Jess posts on TTF 5000+
Slight imbalance me thinks..
Steve


----------



## V6RUL

jamman said:


> V6RUL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mighTy Tee said:
> 
> 
> 
> My apologies Steve - and I have edited my last post accordingly
> 
> 
> 
> No worries.
> There is an unbalanced number of posters erring towards the TTOC creating a bulldozer and I think both forum/club should compromise and become more symbiotic and if it doesn't happen then there are going to be issues in the future.
> Steve
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Steve what forum members have you seen complaining about this situation prior to "someone"
> deciding to change the rules, block and move posts.
> 
> Please show me as far as I know there weren't many if any.
Click to expand...

PMs exist and some are shy..
Steve


----------



## jamman

V6RUL said:


> jamman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> V6RUL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Please show me as far as I know there weren't many if any.
> 
> 
> 
> PMs exist and some are shy..
> Steve
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

In that case you seem privy to inside information Steve wonder who is feeding you that. :roll:


----------



## Lollypop86

Stupid Iphone


----------



## Lollypop86

V6RUL said:


> Lollypop86 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hoggy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Jess, You are a TTOC reg rep & a TTF member.
> How many times have you posted on the TTOC site to inform everyone of the meets you organise.
> Not many would turn up if you only posted on the TTOC site, as hardly any would see it.
> Hoggy.
> 
> 
> 
> I think you'll find hoggster the majority if not all of those who come to the Thames valley meets are TTOC members.....since taking over there has been a very small number of non members so rewording what I've written doesn't change what I've said......
> 
> J
> Xx
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Jess posts on TTOC 193, Jess posts on TTF 5000+
> Slight imbalance me thinks..
> Steve
Click to expand...

You have clearly not read my previous posts Steve number of posts is irrelevant, like I've said which you have clearly ignored I said that the ttf is for info, fixes for issues and general banter, Ttoc is the club with perks......is that really that difficult to understand?

The fact you have gone to the extent of getting my post values is pretty sad....what's your post count Steve? Can you please post it because quite frankly I cba

J
Xx


----------



## Mark Davies

I've not read every post on this thread - it gets tedious after the first 8 pages - but I thought I'd try and introduce a reality check. To make my position clear I'm still a TTOC member (though was in two minds about renewing recently), obviously on the TTF (though not contributing anywhere near as much as I used to) and invloved in the NW group - and went to Haigh Hall, which seems to be a source of much of this angst.

Let's get something clear. Haigh Hall was organised by the NW crew, and the NW crew really doesn't have much to do with the TTOC at all. Half of the people invloved are not TTOC members. In fact some don't even own TTs any more. We have a TTOC rep but really, what does that mean? And I suspect it's much the same with every other local group. We're a bunch of mates who get on with each other and frankly TTOC membership is a complete irrelevence. And so it was with the stand at Haigh Hall. There were members, non-members and even cars other than TTs on the stand. Yes, there were TTOC flags stuck in the ground, which were window dressing. And we did win the best stand award for the club, but I expect that was mostly due to some very nice spec sheet stands that were put up which was purely organised within the NW group and nothing to do with the TTOC at all. I do understand there was a donation to the show's charity by the TTOC but does that in itself make it a TTOC owned stand? I was expecting to make a personal donation and would happily have done so. So whose stand was it really?

Well, it was *OURS*, and 'ours' means the people who were there who honestly couldn't give a toss if it was TTOC, TTF or anything else. It was a bunch of mates showing their cars, who generally get on with each other simply because we do. The rest that has gone on since is just a load of bollocks.

The simple fact of the matter is if the TTOC ceased to exist tomorrow the NW crew would carry on as before without missing a heartbeat. That's worth repeating - _if the TTOC ceased to exist tomorrow the NW crew would carry on as before without missing a heartbeat_. If the TTF ceased to exist tomorrow we'd have a little more difficulty but we'd find a way. The bottom line is that all this politics is really of no importance to anyone except a very few and all it serves to do is alienate a very many people.

One thing I did find interesting at Haigh Hall was that there was a Porsche Owners' Club (NW section) stand and also an Independant Porsche Owners' Club stand, which I thought spoke volumes of the politics that must have gone on in the past. Clearly we are heading much the same way and driven to it by the anomaly we have always had; that the TTOC does its business on a forum that isn't its own. Perhaps the answer is that the TTOC and TTF do their own things and we end up with two or more stands at each show just like the Porsche owners do - or just maybe a few individuals can get a sense of perspective and realise that actually nobody but them gives a toss and just agree that anyone can put their car on any stand anywhere, because as individual members of either body we really couldn't care less.

For pity's sake can we not just get on with enjoying our cars together?


----------



## Nem

Mark Davies said:


> For pity's sake can we not just get on with enjoying our cars together?


I hope so Mark.

Just for clarification, local events, which may or may not be organised by TTOC reps, will always be open to all. I know Haigh Hall isn't the best example but even though Phil organised it as a rep it was attended by forum and TTOC members alike.

The events in question are the more main events usually organised by the TTOC Committee the likes of Stanford Hall, GTi International, Audis in the Park and Audi Driver International which have been and will remain open to TTOC members only.

John raised the question over this years ADI stand, the committee discussed it and decided our decision four years ago was to remain unchanged. John has decided we've just implemented this and has now relegated these TTOC only events to our own section for basically no reason.

Quite frankly myself and the rest of the committee are dismayed at this seeing as nothing has actually changed and nobody has actually complained, yet we're now being punished.


----------



## Mark Davies

Nick, I think the TTOC needs to stand back and have a look at the reality and begin to understand that it really is the junior partner in this relationship. The local groups are the heart-blood of the Club, and I'm sure you would agree with that, but I'll repeat it a second time - _the TTOC could cease to exist tomorrow and the NW crew would carry on as before without missing a heartbeat_. I'm sure we both recognise the truth of that, but why is that?

It's true because everything the Club does is organised through the TTF, and that is the case despite the fact the TTOC has its own members' forum which I'm sure we will agree is little used. Phil is the NW rep but that's not because his authority is in any way sanctioned by the TTOC committee - it's because we choose him to organise stuff for us. If when Les had sold his car and dropped his TTOC membership he'd decided to stay on and continue organising our group then I'd have no doubt that's exactly what would be happening now. So really what relevance does the TTOC actually have?

Members need to understand that their fee buys them the magazine and reduced cost entry to evenTT, and as long as everything the TTOC does is organised via the TTF then that really is it. You and the rest of the committee need to understand that as long as you continue to rely on the TTF to organise things (or more to the point as long as your membership do) then you can't expect to keep anything TTOC exclusive. I appreciate you've tried to have TTOC exclusive entry to shows to try and make the membership worth more, but it simply isn't going to work - not as long as you're using the TTF to organise it. On the face of it keeping the promotion of TTOC exclusive shows to an area of the TTF that can only be accessed by TTOC members seems a perfectly reasonable compromise, but if we were truly facing the realities I think the only solution is not to have TTOC exclusive shows at all - because the simple fact of the matter is that at grass roots the TTOC isn't member exclusive in any way.

In the case of the NW crew - and I expect every other regional group is the same - whether someone is a member or not doesn't matter. Certainly nobody has ever been asked to show a card before sitting down! This happens because it is all organised via a forum that does not need TTOC membership to access it - and until *all* TTOC business is organised on a TTOC member exclusive forum that's always going to be the case. I think we all recognise that isn't ever going to happen, so realistically the only other outcome is that there cannot be any TTOC member exclusivity at all. I'd suggest you completely give up trying to make any shows for TTOC members only. Accept that membership is about _absoluTTe_ and _evenTT_ and nothing else and let the rest of the TT owning public just get on with it however they choose. At grass roots we're all just a bunch of mates and TTOC membership or even car ownership just plays second fiddle. Recognise that and the whole business will get along with much more harmony.


----------



## Nem

Mark, the easiest way to sum up a reply to that load of rubbish and inaccuracy is to say that quite simply I'm not your mate.


----------



## Lollypop86

Nem said:


> I'm not your mate.


Lol, I switched off after the first 10 words, yet another one joining the band wagon with John and Dani....bore

J
xx


----------



## A3DFU

Mark Davies said:


> I've not read every post on this thread - it gets tedious after the first 8 pages - but I thought I'd try and introduce a reality check. To make my position clear I'm still a TTOC member (though was in two minds about renewing recently), obviously on the TTF (though not contributing anywhere near as much as I used to) and invloved in the NW group - and went to Haigh Hall, which seems to be a source of much of this angst.
> 
> Let's get something clear. Haigh Hall was organised by the NW crew, and the NW crew really doesn't have much to do with the TTOC at all. Half of the people invloved are not TTOC members. In fact some don't even own TTs any more. We have a TTOC rep but really, what does that mean? And I suspect it's much the same with every other local group. We're a bunch of mates who get on with each other and frankly TTOC membership is a complete irrelevence. And so it was with the stand at Haigh Hall. There were members, non-members and even cars other than TTs on the stand. Yes, there were TTOC flags stuck in the ground, which were window dressing. And we did win the best stand award for the club, but I expect that was mostly due to some very nice spec sheet stands that were put up which was purely organised within the NW group and nothing to do with the TTOC at all. I do understand there was a donation to the show's charity by the TTOC but does that in itself make it a TTOC owned stand? I was expecting to make a personal donation and would happily have done so. So whose stand was it really?
> 
> Well, it was *OURS*, and 'ours' means the people who were there who honestly couldn't give a toss if it was TTOC, TTF or anything else. It was a bunch of mates showing their cars, who generally get on with each other simply because we do. The rest that has gone on since is just a load of bollocks.
> 
> The simple fact of the matter is if the TTOC ceased to exist tomorrow the NW crew would carry on as before without missing a heartbeat. That's worth repeating - _if the TTOC ceased to exist tomorrow the NW crew would carry on as before without missing a heartbeat_. If the TTF ceased to exist tomorrow we'd have a little more difficulty but we'd find a way. The bottom line is that all this politics is really of no importance to anyone except a very few and all it serves to do is alienate a very many people.
> 
> One thing I did find interesting at Haigh Hall was that there was a Porsche Owners' Club (NW section) stand and also an Independant Porsche Owners' Club stand, which I thought spoke volumes of the politics that must have gone on in the past. Clearly we are heading much the same way and driven to it by the anomaly we have always had; that the TTOC does its business on a forum that isn't its own. Perhaps the answer is that the TTOC and TTF do their own things and we end up with two or more stands at each show just like the Porsche owners do - or just maybe a few individuals can get a sense of perspective and realise that actually nobody but them gives a toss and just agree that anyone can put their car on any stand anywhere, because as individual members of either body we really couldn't care less.
> 
> For pity's sake can we not just get on with enjoying our cars together?


A VERY balanced and reasoned post as usual that makes loads of sense, Mark! The world needs more people like you


----------



## jamman

Everyone is allowed an opinion but Jesus Mary and Joseph why say a few words when a thousand will do.

I just need Loves My Cupra and RustyI to complete my Top Trump TTOC collection.

Maybe they have their hands full surprised they haven't made a appearance. :lol:

Quite enjoyed Nick's response because at the end of the day ain't that the truth.

Let's just see what Vertical come back with and not carry on the NW this NW crew that bollocks because it has no relevance to the problem.


----------



## Nem

Unfortunately Dani all you are now doing with you famous "great post" reply is just dragging this on.

We've spoken to the forum owners, they've spoken to John, and now we're just waiting for them to sort this all out.

It had actually stopped until Mark decided to throw an off topic essay at us.


----------



## mighTy Tee

If the North West are such a special group of people maybe they should start their own club, and as they drive such a diverse mix of different vehicles, maybe should simply be the "North West Car Enthusiasts Club".

They could even have their own stand to out do the TTOC and post their events in the event section of the TTF.

I still strongly believe that if the TTOC books a stand at a public show, that stand is for the benefit of TTOC members so they can show their Audi TT (not A3, R8, Merc or Range Rover), and as the event as a whole is a public event there is absolutely no reason why the event should be advertised anywhere other than the main events section.


----------



## jamman

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=736977

Think Mark pretty much sums it up what more needs saying ?


----------



## Lollypop86

Nem said:


> It had actually stopped until Mark decided to throw an off topic essay at us.


Not just once.....but TWICE! Double BORE!

Why does it now appear that this is becoming a triangle.....NW TT owners v TTOC v TTF..........NW crew are not any different than the rest of us so get off your high horse or even better still write a manual about it so we dont have to read your posts 

J
xx


----------



## neilc

I had said I would not post into this thread until Vertical Scope came back to us with a mutually beneficial compromise but I have to say Mark that your two posts have spurred me to comment.

What a complete load of self obsessed naive nonsense you have written. If you really believe the below quote then thank the lord you are not in business. If you actually think that Vertical Scope don't highly value our 900 TTOC members you are indeed misguided. :roll:



Mark Davies said:


> Nick, I think the TTOC needs to stand back and have a look at the reality and begin to understand that it really is the junior partner in this relationship.


----------



## Mark Davies

You try to be constructive and just look at the responses you get! I write relatively longer posts to try and make sure the point is covered and clear via this format - we're not in a room together and able to have an ongoing discussion after all - and certainly the typically ascerbic one-liners that litter these threads are rarely very useful to the debate, are they? It's the difference between persuasion and just trying to shout people down.

Neil, I never said anything even _remotely_ like Veritcal Scope not valuing the TTOC membership. Where did you make that up from? By saying the TTOC is the junior member I meant only this; if the TTOC stopped business tomorrow the TTF would more or less carry on just as it does. Local groups would carry on more or less as they do. In fact the 'club' would continue to function in a fashion via its usual medium of organisation, the TTF. However, if the TTF went offline tomorrow the Club would of course survive but it would take some time for it to get back on its feet with its own forum. Hopefully the TTF members would all join the TTOC and use their forum but sadly I think the reality would be a new forum would be started to which the TTOC wouldn't have the access they enjoy on TTF. So to put it another way, if we are being wholly relaistic about the situation, the TTOC probably needs the TTF more than the TTF needs the TTOC. Controversial? No, I don't think so. And given that reality wouldn't it be better if the TTOC adopted a more inclusive stance?

My point is simple - in any other circumstances the TTOC would be running all its business on its own forum that would be accessed only by members, and if that was the case there just wouldn't be any of this aggro. However because of historical factors that we're all aware of the TTOC is doing virtually all its business on the TTF. That's always going to create issues - primarily that you don't need to be a TTOC member to participate. I only use the NW group as illustration because it is the one I'm involved in. No, I don't think it is special - in fact I'm pretty sure I said that it is no doubt just the same everywhere else - but the point made there is depsite whatever restrictions the TTOC try to impose they are almost certainly going to be circumvented by the local, grass roots members who generally are not that bothered about whether their friends are TTOC members or not. Haigh Hall was organised by the NW group, not the central TTOC, and the TTOC could never have exercised any control over whose cars were on that stand - and they didn't try to. I would expect that is replicated at other locally organised events everywhere.

If the committee are organising a stand then fair enough, they can set their own restrictions, but don't be surprised if another stand turns up and don't be bitter about it. It's just inevitable. Non-members are going to want to go and will make their own arrangements. So what? But wouldn't it just be so much nicer if everyone went together? And if you're using the TTF to do your organisation isn't it just simple courtesy to invite them along? And should the TTOC events be hidden away on the TTF? No! It's just more uneccessary and unwanted antagonism in a tit-for-tat battle, especially as it appears to have been done without the owner's knowledge or permission. I'm simply suggesting we all stop worrying about the differences and just get on with it together. I found the various Porsche stands at Haigh Hall rather a shame and don't want to see the TT community going the same way.

Doesn't seem like a particularly controversial point to make - but yet here you can get attacked for making it. Awesome. I'm suddenly reminded why I've barely visited this forum for months.


----------



## Nyxx

jamman said:


> Everyone is allowed an opinion but Jesus Mary and Joseph why say a few words when a thousand will do.
> 
> I just need Loves My Cupra and RustyI to complete my Top Trump TTOC collection.
> 
> Maybe they have their hands full surprised they haven't made a appearance. :lol:
> 
> Quite enjoyed Nick's response because at the end of the day ain't that the truth.
> 
> Let's just see what Vertical come back with and not carry on the NW this NW crew that bollocks because it has no relevance to the problem.


OMG I just spilt my tea. :lol: so much.
Just Perfect.


----------



## Spandex

neilc said:


> If you actually think that Vertical Scope don't highly value our 900 TTOC members you are indeed misguided. :roll:


Do Vertical Scope value the 900 TTOC members any higher than they value 900 TTF members who _aren't_ in the TTOC?


----------



## neilc

Spandex said:


> neilc said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you actually think that Vertical Scope don't highly value our 900 TTOC members you are indeed misguided. :roll:
> 
> 
> 
> Do Vertical Scope value the 900 TTOC members any higher than they value 900 TTF members who _aren't_ in the TTOC?
Click to expand...

No of course not but as you well know to actively frustrate half of the users would be naive. The forum is all about exposure so that the paying sponsors get the exposure required to make that investment worth while.

No sponsors = no forum , simple.


----------



## A3DFU

Nem said:


> Unfortunately Dani all you are now doing with you famous "great post" reply is just dragging this on.


Nick, I'm quite capable of forming my own opinion and I won't need you to tell me whether or not I should be postsing or not, thank you :-*


----------



## Spandex

neilc said:


> No of course not but as you well know to actively frustrate half of the users would be naive. The forum is all about exposure so that the paying sponsors get the exposure required to make that investment worth while.
> 
> No sponsors = no forum , simple.


You (and Vertical Scope) want numbers, and unless you can show how the TTOC increases forum membership (or internal/external page hits) then I'm not sure how you can argue that the TTOC is increasing Vertical Scopes revenue in any way.

I actually don't see why John bothered moving the events in the first place, but all the "speaking as a sponsor" posturing is a little ridiculous. Speaking as a sponsor, you should realise that the TTOC is not what makes advertising on this forum a lucrative proposition.


----------



## neilc

Not really happy to waste anymore time debating it really. Decisions will be made and that will be the end of it. I have a business to run.


----------



## Nem

A3DFU said:


> Nem said:
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately Dani all you are now doing with you famous "great post" reply is just dragging this on.
> 
> 
> 
> Nick, I'm quite capable of forming my own opinion and I won't need you to tell me whether or not I should be postsing or not, thank you :-*
Click to expand...

I'm sure you are, but when half of your post count is made up by quoting someone else and adding "great post" you're not really conveying it.


----------



## The Blue Bandit

... this has really started to go around in circles now- but my original question still stands:-

Who exactly is outraged at threads regarding the TTOC's organisation of events for it's members (events which are open to all, outside of the club stand) appearing in the Events sub-forum?

It's just that comments along the lines of 'I think we all know who is the junior partner here' merely enforce all our suspicions that this decision hasn't come about for the benfit of forum members, and is more being driven by a flexing of muscle from spurned former committee members, and is nothing short of bullying (bullying in a way that has been deemed deplorable by the very people who are now doing it:- 'You're excluding people and we don't agree with it, so we're excluding you') ... it's nothing more than meglomania, and an abuse of the position they hold.

I think _all _TTOC members are well aware that the TT forum is the 'big pond' in which small fish reside- and even though the TTOC are bigger than most fish, they still know their 'plaice' (see what I did there?)

I think whether you're a member or a fan of the TTOC club, you have to give credit where it's due- they give an added level of 'organisation' that personally I feel you would struggle to get from the TT forum alone ... I don't feel that TT owners attending shows and having their own stand would be impossible without input from the TTOC, far from it, and Jamman has shown better than most that you _can _organise a first rate annual event without it being TTOC driven.

_But _in my experience (and this is only _my _opinion) the TTOC committee and reps work tirelessly to make the clubs stand work ... I was talking to a committee member the other day about the Ultimate Dubs show where the TTOC had a stand, and with only 5 places on offer, he was still trying to fill three places at the 11th hour because people had dropped out and let him down... who would be doing this on behalf of the forum? ...

My feeling is that not enough credit is given to the TTOC committee and reps for the job that they do, because I have to question that without the organisation that the TTOC offer whether the forum would be able to put together a properly run and maintained stand show after show, and is it the people who have allegedly complained that they're currently being excluded who are willing to take on the role of organising this on behalf of the forum? My guess (if they exist) is 'No'

It's the usual forum mentality- it's easier to sit on the sidelines behind a keyboard moaning, rather than get up off your backsides and do something to bring about a need for change if it is deemed so 'elitist' to exclude non-members ...

... maybe if the forum _did _start to organise it's own club stands and give the TTOC a run for it's money in terms of setting up a professional club stand, then the TTOC would be forced to reconsider whether it could afford to face the possibility of becoming the 'lesser TT club', but while they're the only one's making an effort behind the scenes to make these shows work, then I don't blame them for having a policy of making it a more 'exclusive' affair to maintain a certain standard.

Which leaves me with one final question:- 
Should the TT forum decide that it wants to set up a stand of its own, inclusive of everyone- and a forum member decides to turn up and engage in anti-social behaviour (donuts, burnouts, dogging etc) ... who is going to take responsibilty to police this behaviour and stop them from attending again??
This is the added protection you get with a club, that you don't get at shows with an 'open forum turnout' ... there is a heirachy of committee members to ensure that all members maintain the standard that has been set by the club ... effectively what the forum is saying is that everyone from the forum should be able to turn up at all shows, park on the club stand- but if it all kicks off, they're not gonna be there so the TTOC will have to sort it out , police it, and have it reflect on them and _their _ reputation.

Steve


----------



## mighTy Tee

^^ HEAR HEAR ^^ [smiley=thumbsup.gif]


----------



## jimmyf

Mark Davies said:


> For pity's sake can we not just get on with enjoying our cars together?


....Just what everyone appeared to be doing Mark before you decided to get on your soap box to deliver your anti-TTOC rant which has done nothing but fuel the fire again. 

Everyone else appeared to be taking a back seat to allow the forum owners time to try and sort things out !!


----------



## jimmyf

Mark's quotes from 2 posts above I think make it clear where he stands :wink: :-

...I'm still a TTOC member (though was in two minds about renewing recently),

...the NW crew really doesn't have much to do with the TTOC at all.

...We have a TTOC rep but really, what does that mean.

...frankly TTOC membership is a complete irrelevence.

...Yes, there were TTOC flags stuck in the ground, which were window dressing.

...and nothing to do with the TTOC at all.

...there was a donation to the show's charity by the TTOC but does that in itself make it a TTOC owned stand?

...and 'ours' means the people who were there who honestly couldn't give a toss if it was TTOC,

...if the TTOC ceased to exist tomorrow the NW crew would carry on as before without missing a heartbeat.

...the TTOC does its business on a forum that isn't its own

...I think the TTOC needs to stand back and have a look at the reality

...the TTOC has its own members' forum which I'm sure we will agree is little used.

...and as long as everything the TTOC does is organised via the TTF

...you can't expect to keep anything TTOC exclusive.

...it simply isn't going to work - not as long as you're using the TTF to organise it.

...I think the only solution is not to have TTOC exclusive shows at all

... the simple fact of the matter is that at grass roots the TTOC isn't member exclusive in any way.

...the only other outcome is that there cannot be any TTOC member exclusivity at all

...TTOC membership just plays second fiddle


----------



## A3DFU

Nem said:


> A3DFU said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nem said:
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately Dani all you are now doing with you famous "great post" reply is just dragging this on.
> 
> 
> 
> Nick, I'm quite capable of forming my own opinion and I won't need you to tell me whether or not I should be postsing or not, thank you :-*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm sure you are, but when half of your post count is made up by quoting someone else and adding "great post" you're not really conveying it.
Click to expand...

I am sure you counted all my quotes adding a "great post" Nick. Good job. Well done [smiley=thumbsup.gif] 
[I don't think I use this _great post_ thing a lot so you may have been able to use one hand for your counting business]


----------



## Lollypop86

Mark Davies said:


> You try to be constructive and just look at the responses you get! I write relatively longer posts to try and make sure the point is covered and clear via this format - we're not in a room together and able to have an ongoing discussion after all - and certainly the typically ascerbic one-liners that litter these threads are rarely very useful to the debate, are they? It's the difference between persuasion and just trying to shout people down.


Urgh.....till you pipped up to put your 2 penneth in everything was dead a buried with this there was no debate you were late for the party.....I think people get to about 5 words in on most of your essays, realise its going to be a load of tosh and give up........as you should

J
xx


----------



## Lollypop86

jimmyf said:


> Mark's quotes from 2 posts above I think make it clear where he stands :wink: :-
> 
> ...I'm still a TTOC member (though was in two minds about renewing recently),
> 
> ...the NW crew really doesn't have much to do with the TTOC at all.
> 
> ...We have a TTOC rep but really, what does that mean.
> 
> ...frankly TTOC membership is a complete irrelevence.
> 
> ...Yes, there were TTOC flags stuck in the ground, which were window dressing.
> 
> ...and nothing to do with the TTOC at all.
> 
> ...there was a donation to the show's charity by the TTOC but does that in itself make it a TTOC owned stand?
> 
> ...and 'ours' means the people who were there who honestly couldn't give a toss if it was TTOC,
> 
> ...if the TTOC ceased to exist tomorrow the NW crew would carry on as before without missing a heartbeat.
> 
> ...the TTOC does its business on a forum that isn't its own
> 
> ...I think the TTOC needs to stand back and have a look at the reality
> 
> ...the TTOC has its own members' forum which I'm sure we will agree is little used.
> 
> ...and as long as everything the TTOC does is organised via the TTF
> 
> ...you can't expect to keep anything TTOC exclusive.
> 
> ...it simply isn't going to work - not as long as you're using the TTF to organise it.
> 
> ...I think the only solution is not to have TTOC exclusive shows at all
> 
> ... the simple fact of the matter is that at grass roots the TTOC isn't member exclusive in any way.
> 
> ...the only other outcome is that there cannot be any TTOC member exclusivity at all
> 
> ...TTOC membership just plays second fiddle


TTOC hater then yea?

J
xx


----------



## jimmyf

Lollypop86 said:


> TTOC hater then yea?
> 
> J
> xx
Click to expand...

Everyone's entitled to their opinion Jess :wink:


----------



## Bartsimpsonhead

_I wrote this in response to a post in the Flame Room, but thought it applied equally well here - so am just going to past it here:_
----------------



Bartsimpsonhead said:


> mighTy Tee said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fact: TTF is a commercial concern, making money out of us the users through advertising revenue etc
> 
> Fact:The TTOC is a members club and not for profit organisation.
> 
> Being a member of the TTOC has to have some benefits otherwise what is the point. Not everyone agrees and each to their own and no doubt others will argue the toss the other way.
> 
> 
> 
> I'd liken it to the ITV network vs. the Beeb/Sky/Virgin TV - one is free to air, as long as you don't mind the commercials and the fact you have little or no say in how its run; the other you pay a subscription for a 'service', but have a little say in it (the Beeb you can express your views to the BBC Trust, and if Sky/Virgin aren't up to scratch you buy you service elsewhere (though for the forums its the TTOC committee elections, or moving to another site like Audi-Sport.net))
> How many people _really_ object to commercials on the TV? Aren't most people happy to pay nothing for something? (Given the number of users on each respective site (TTF/TTOC) that would be most people)
> 
> Each have pros and cons. If you don't like what you see - switch off or turn over. At the end of the day most people are happy enough to put up with both.
> 
> Splitters!
Click to expand...


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## jamman

V6RUL said:


> jamman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Steve what forum members have you seen complaining about this situation prior to "someone"
> deciding to change the rules, block and move posts.
> 
> Please show me as far as I know there weren't many if any.
> 
> 
> 
> PMs exist and some are shy..
> Steve
Click to expand...

Where are all these people that are so upset by this Steve because they aren't signed up for the TTF stand are they?

This is in realty the most overblown load of complete and utter shirt stirring/getting your own back ever.

Load of bollocks.


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## Nyxx

jamman said:


> Where are all these people that are so upset by this Steve because they aren't signed up for the TTF stand are they?


How Rude!

"_*A stand for TT Forum members has now been booked at Castle Combe as well as a table for Saturday evening's Gala Dinner*_."

There queuing up, at the moment confirmed so far are....

*Booked on the Stand *
Dani

*Evening's Gala Dinner*

Dani


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## Ikon66

Getting a bit more than childish now :roll:


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## jamman

Ikon66 said:


> Getting a bit more than childish now :roll:


i actually think my post is VERY valid Paul if I'm honest.

We are told there were complaints made so action was taken but I just don't see it materialising.

I've never been TTOCs biggest fan everybody knows that but sometimes people have to move on and all this bollocks and that's what it is complete bollocks has done nobody any good except brought all the resentment back to the surface.

Over the years I've spoken to John many more times than anybody else on the forum* and he's also helped me sooooo much but sometimes it takes a bigger man to say you know what folks I made a mistake/bad call it's not worked out how I expected I'm sorry and can we move on. Jobs done.

*Except my best friend Neil [smiley=iloveyou.gif]


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## Ikon66

Was more aimed at nyxx's post


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## Nem

John, Neil and the forum owners are all discussing this and the best way forward, so can we let this be for now as no more good can come from us all taking shots at each other.

A reasonable solution for all is trying to be formed so let's see where that takes us all.


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## Lollypop86

Nem said:


> John, Neil and the forum owners are all discussing this and the best way forward, so can we let this be for now as no more good can come from us all taking shots at each other.
> 
> A reasonable solution for all is trying to be formed so let's see where that takes us all.


No! hahaha *runs away*

J
xx


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## Nyxx

Ikon66 said:


> Was more aimed at nyxx's post


The hole thing is childish beyond belief.

Why is it impossible for some people to move on and think OK the members had there say, let's put it behind us and that's the end of it. Well some never will, will they. Just remember who started this off again.

You think that might have been childish but it clearly shows something, I will let you figure it out.

Work the problem out with the TTOC not a small group that wants nothing more than bring the club down because they failed at taking over it. TTOC and the TTF are fine and work well together. Work it out and let's get back on track.

Also as long as you have a MOD that will fine anything to paint the TTOC in a bad light, then you need to think if a person with that agenda should be a MOD for you.


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## Lollypop86

Nyxx said:


> Also as long as you have a MOD that will fine anything to paint the TTOC in a bad light, then you need to think if a person with that agenda should be a MOD for you.


He's admin  just saying  lol

J
xx


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## Nyxx

Well at the top of the forum it say Mod's =

But anyway the points the same


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## Lollypop86

Nyxx said:


> Well at the top of the forum it say Mod's =
> 
> But anyway the points the same


Good post

J
xx


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## Nyxx

Lollypop86 said:


> Nyxx said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well at the top of the forum it say Mod's =
> 
> But anyway the points the same
> 
> 
> 
> Good post
> 
> J
> xx
Click to expand...

 :wink:


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## peter-ss

It's a shame that everyone couldn't just get on because John-H used to do an excellent job of editing the magazine and has a great technical ability too.

I also felt that Dani was a great personality to have on board on the club stands.

This isn't me taking sides as I get on with all concerned, it just would have been nice if everyone could have pulled in the same direction.

P.S. Dave, has your new year's resolution worn off? :wink:


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## Nyxx

Sorry Peter it just slept.  
Now get back to painting  and I promise I will try harder


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## Lollypop86

Nyxx said:


> Sorry Peter it just slept.
> Now get back to painting  and I promise I will try harder


Good Post

J
xx


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## John-H

It's regrettable that this issue is being personalised.

When even one complaint is made we have a duty to look into it on members' behalf. The issue stared with a number of complaints regarding Haigh Hall. The question was asked about ADI and clarification was sought on members' behalf.

As a result of the club officially declaring that event(s) it was organising were to exclude TT Forum (non club) members, a team decision was taken to promote events for all forum members.

I have personally spoken to neilc and he has made a proposal to resolve the issue. I am currently awaiting a response from the admin/moderation team regarding this and hopefully it will soon be resolved. Please allow time for this to happen and for the team to respond, to avoid inflaming matters in hand.


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## Lollypop86

John-H said:


> The issue stared with a number of complaints regarding Haigh Hall.


John, sorry to keep on about this but I dont know if I either agree or believe this point, due to the fact that there were a good mix of TTF and TTOC members at Haigh Hall......

J
xx


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## ttpos

Hi Guys this is a Club that we all like to be a part of or we would not be in it if we did not like this type of Car . it is just an Hobby we spend thousands on . like Nem said a money pit but we all enjoy it. and love it. it is a part of our life 
some years ago I was a member of another club a Custom van club it got really bad so Bad My mates Custom van got burnt out by some one, it is not nice ,you put time and effort and Money into a Hobby Please just enjoy the Hobby


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## Redtoy

In 2010 I bought my first TT, looking back on it, both me and the o/h have said many times it was probably one of the best things we ever did. It has opened up another world of fantastic friends we had met over the years, we attended many events , local and international, we traded the TT in, in 2013, 3 great years of ownership, for a JCW Coupe, we haven't joined another owners club because we don't think we could meet such good friends again. For the last 18 months we have still been invited on TT events, even though we don't own one now, we've just recently come back from the Switzerland tour, 22 TT's and us!!
The people we have met through the TT have been fantastic, nothing to do with being in the TTOC or TTF, which we were in both, just the fact it was the car.......i do come back on the forum now and again and I can't believe what I'm reading, for goodness sake what the hell is happening, for the sake of everyone with one of the most iconic cars in the world, grow up and sort it out [smiley=baby.gif]


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## V6RUL

Redtoy said:


> In 2010 I bought my first TT, looking back on it, both me and the o/h have said many times it was probably one of the best things we ever did. It has opened up another world of fantastic friends we had met over the years, we attended many events , local and international, we traded the TT in, in 2013, 3 great years of ownership, for a JCW Coupe, we haven't joined another owners club because we don't think we could meet such good friends again. For the last 18 months we have still been invited on TT events, even though we don't own one now, we've just recently come back from the Switzerland tour, 22 TT's and us!!
> The people we have met through the TT have been fantastic, nothing to do with being in the TTOC or TTF, which we were in both, just the fact it was the car.......i do come back on the forum now and again and I can't believe what I'm reading, for goodness sake what the hell is happening, for the sake of everyone with one of the most iconic cars in the world, grow up and sort it out [smiley=baby.gif]


Are you coming back to the TT fold as i thought you were giving the JCW back..
Steve


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## Redtoy

V6RUL said:


> Redtoy said:
> 
> 
> 
> In 2010 I bought my first TT, looking back on it, both me and the o/h have said many times it was probably one of the best things we ever did. It has opened up another world of fantastic friends we had met over the years, we attended many events , local and international, we traded the TT in, in 2013, 3 great years of ownership, for a JCW Coupe, we haven't joined another owners club because we don't think we could meet such good friends again. For the last 18 months we have still been invited on TT events, even though we don't own one now, we've just recently come back from the Switzerland tour, 22 TT's and us!!
> The people we have met through the TT have been fantastic, nothing to do with being in the TTOC or TTF, which we were in both, just the fact it was the car.......i do come back on the forum now and again and I can't believe what I'm reading, for goodness sake what the hell is happening, for the sake of everyone with one of the most iconic cars in the world, grow up and sort it out [smiley=baby.gif]
> 
> 
> 
> Are you coming back to the TT fold as i thought you were giving the JCW back..
> Steve
Click to expand...

Still loving it too much at the moment,......... and anyway why would anyone want to get involved in this shambles ? Such a shame it's gone down this route !


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## MichaelAC

Shall we not just leave the politics out of the clubs and get on with being like minded TT enthusiasts?


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## Wallsendmag

MichaelAC said:


> Shall we not just leave the politics out of the clubs and get on with being like minded TT enthusiasts?


Sounds like a plan to me


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## sislack

Mark Davies said:


> You try to be constructive and just look at the responses you get! I write relatively longer posts to try and make sure the point is covered and clear via this format - we're not in a room together and able to have an ongoing discussion after all - and certainly the typically ascerbic one-liners that litter these threads are rarely very useful to the debate, are they? It's the difference between persuasion and just trying to shout people down.
> 
> Neil, I never said anything even _remotely_ like Veritcal Scope not valuing the TTOC membership. Where did you make that up from? By saying the TTOC is the junior member I meant only this; if the TTOC stopped business tomorrow the TTF would more or less carry on just as it does. Local groups would carry on more or less as they do. In fact the 'club' would continue to function in a fashion via its usual medium of organisation, the TTF. However, if the TTF went offline tomorrow the Club would of course survive but it would take some time for it to get back on its feet with its own forum. Hopefully the TTF members would all join the TTOC and use their forum but sadly I think the reality would be a new forum would be started to which the TTOC wouldn't have the access they enjoy on TTF. So to put it another way, if we are being wholly relaistic about the situation, the TTOC probably needs the TTF more than the TTF needs the TTOC. Controversial? No, I don't think so. And given that reality wouldn't it be better if the TTOC adopted a more inclusive stance?
> 
> My point is simple - in any other circumstances the TTOC would be running all its business on its own forum that would be accessed only by members, and if that was the case there just wouldn't be any of this aggro. However because of historical factors that we're all aware of the TTOC is doing virtually all its business on the TTF. That's always going to create issues - primarily that you don't need to be a TTOC member to participate. I only use the NW group as illustration because it is the one I'm involved in. No, I don't think it is special - in fact I'm pretty sure I said that it is no doubt just the same everywhere else - but the point made there is depsite whatever restrictions the TTOC try to impose they are almost certainly going to be circumvented by the local, grass roots members who generally are not that bothered about whether their friends are TTOC members or not. Haigh Hall was organised by the NW group, not the central TTOC, and the TTOC could never have exercised any control over whose cars were on that stand - and they didn't try to. I would expect that is replicated at other locally organised events everywhere.
> 
> If the committee are organising a stand then fair enough, they can set their own restrictions, but don't be surprised if another stand turns up and don't be bitter about it. It's just inevitable. Non-members are going to want to go and will make their own arrangements. So what? But wouldn't it just be so much nicer if everyone went together? And if you're using the TTF to do your organisation isn't it just simple courtesy to invite them along? And should the TTOC events be hidden away on the TTF? No! It's just more uneccessary and unwanted antagonism in a tit-for-tat battle, especially as it appears to have been done without the owner's knowledge or permission. I'm simply suggesting we all stop worrying about the differences and just get on with it together. I found the various Porsche stands at Haigh Hall rather a shame and don't want to see the TT community going the same way.
> 
> Doesn't seem like a particularly controversial point to make - but yet here you can get attacked for making it. Awesome. I'm suddenly reminded why I've barely visited this forum for months.


LOL


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## les

Mark
Quote from your post "Haigh Hall was organised by the NW group, not the central TTOC, and the TTOC could never have exercised any control over whose cars were on that stand - and they didn't try to."

I am sorry but I have to correct you here (BTW I agree with the rest you have said and well put) The TTOC did indeed try to stop just TTF members attending and putting their cars on the Haig Hall site at one of the Haigh Hall events. You may recall and its is documented that I arranged the first 2 Haigh Hall events. I did so as a TTF event but open to anybody who had a TT, in fact, we had a couple of VW Lupo's on the stand with us and we have had the odd Porche since on the stand.I did agree that the TTOC could put up their banners on the stand and why not.

A certain TTOC committee member tried to suggest that the Haigh Hall events had been a TTOC organised stand. That is simply not so and I had to step in and do a post saying so. Needless to say that committee member stayed quiet after that with not a word since on it. IMO the Haigh Hall event should be open to anybody given this is a charity event with all money raised going to worthy causes. TTOC or TTF who gives a damn, in fact, I could have organised the stand as a NW TT group stand had I so wished to do.

Phil the event organiser of the Haigh Hall event informed me that he wished all car clubs had arranged and corresponded as well as we had both leading up to and during the event. Finally, it would be a shame if the stand at Haigh Hall became a the and us with 2 stands but it seems some would want to take it that way, I hope not,


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## Cloud

This is an old thread from over 12 months ago that has been resurrected for some reason. :?

This year's Haigh Hall event proved that we can all get on in harmony, and the stand, which consisted of both TTOC and TTF members, raised £160 for Wigan and Leigh Hospice.


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