# Defcon Copies.



## cookbot (Apr 19, 2011)

Was wondering if anyone had a set off the car and would mind measuring them with a vernier as I'm going to make a pair instead. Can possibly make a few more sets while I'm at it too if anyone is interested?


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## cookbot (Apr 19, 2011)

Yep, this is a go in 6061 alloy and anodized.


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## GanXteR (May 17, 2011)

Sounds interesting mate could you pm me a price on the finished goods 
:lol:

Sent from my Nexus S using Tapatalk 2


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## nilrem (Sep 9, 2011)

GanXteR said:


> Sounds interesting mate could you pm me a price on the finished goods
> :lol:
> 
> Sent from my Nexus S using Tapatalk 2


+1


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## OeTT (Nov 10, 2007)

And another, let me know when you have a price
Stewart


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## cookbot (Apr 19, 2011)

Spoke to a mate who's going to make them and thinks they'll take 1.5 hours to make per pair, so it won't be much and certainly not the $125 worth they are from the states. Going to have one set made and see how they fit my car, then I'll take it from there really. Just need to pick what colour the anodizing will be done then, probably the cheapest/toughest!

Stay tuned for more info. Need to get hold of a new bush to see what they measure up at and can take it from there.


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## cookbot (Apr 19, 2011)

and for those who think defcons are just a US military thing, have a look here:

http://www.wak-tt.com/mods/defcon/defcon.htm


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## TT_SPeedster (Dec 30, 2011)

yes please. I am rather interested.


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## merlin c (Jan 25, 2012)

+1


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## t'mill (Jul 31, 2012)

So these will be beneficial on my 2001 TT? Got a tad confused with the linky where it was talking about the legendary mk1 set up


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## L0z (Sep 8, 2011)

Yes please


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## TT DWN UNDER (Aug 29, 2007)

I bought some about 2 years ago ,and had them pressed in by a local guy for $50 ...I also installed R32 ARB's at the same time so hard to say what they did by themselves but Im very happy wiith the feel of the car, turns on razors...killed the oversteer alot....


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## cookbot (Apr 19, 2011)

t'mill said:


> So these will be beneficial on my 2001 TT? Got a tad confused with the linky where it was talking about the legendary mk1 set up


Yea, the mk1 lower arms were recalled due to middle aged house wife being unable to keep the car out off a hedge and they fitted the newer mk2 arms (nothing to do with the mk2 car). Apparently they really tighten things up and powerflex make the right size bush too.


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## t'mill (Jul 31, 2012)

You wouldn't happen to have a linky for the powerflex bush?


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## xiphon (Dec 8, 2011)

I'd be interested too!


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## tom2018 (Mar 26, 2011)

Me to please let me no when you have a finished product


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## TT_SPeedster (Dec 30, 2011)

Came across this http://public.fotki.com/mcphill/aud...ol-arm-/ttarmsracedefconinstall/dscn8627.html. He had a vernier on it, though not sure if that's the bush you need.


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## cookbot (Apr 19, 2011)

http://www.powerflex.co.uk/product-details/Front+Wishbone+Front+Bush/847.html

Just need to make sure the measurements are perfect before they're sent out, so could be a couple of weeks yet.


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## cookbot (Apr 19, 2011)

Hmm 52.87mm seems a bit big as the larger powerflex bush is advertised at 45.5mm as seen here, leading me to think the hole is 45mm so to be a snug fit:

http://www.powerflex.co.uk/product-details/Front+Wishbone+Front+Bush/1132.html


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## YT-TT (Apr 6, 2010)

set for sale here, maybe he will measure them for you?

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=293806


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## tricklexxx (Oct 21, 2010)

At £90 you may as well but some genuine ones and get them copied - you'll easily get your money back by the looks of it... Assuming nobody from the US reads this thread and instigates litigious proceedings! :lol:


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## xiphon (Dec 8, 2011)

tricklexxx said:


> At £90 you may as well but some genuine ones and get them copied - you'll easily get your money back by the looks of it... Assuming nobody from the US reads this thread and instigates litigious proceedings! :lol:


What if person A measured the 'item' in question, and thoroughly documented (measured) it.

Then gave the document to person B.

Who gives it to person C (never meeting person A) - who then reads the technical document and builds an 'item' to the exact specifications?

Worked for Bill Gates!!

(It's how the BIOS in IBM computers was cloned back in the early 80s, to produce '100% IBM Compatible PCs' - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PC_compatible)


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## tricklexxx (Oct 21, 2010)

xiphon said:


> tricklexxx said:
> 
> 
> > At £90 you may as well but some genuine ones and get them copied - you'll easily get your money back by the looks of it... Assuming nobody from the US reads this thread and instigates litigious proceedings! :lol:
> ...


:lol: fapping 'ell cookbot you could end up one of the richest men in the world! :roll:


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## JS53MES (Apr 11, 2012)

im interested too


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## MCPaudiTT (Jan 17, 2007)

Quite dispappointed to see this thread. I am a one-man shop and don't feel in ANY way as I am overcharging for these parts. Obviously those interested in this post feel differently... Would you all be up for a 25% reduction in your hourly wage at whatever it is you do if some "nobody" were willing to do your job for that amount?


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## merlin c (Jan 25, 2012)

MCPaudiTT said:


> Quite dispappointed to see this thread. I am a one-man shop and don't feel in ANY way as I am overcharging for these parts. Obviously those interested in this post feel differently... Would you all be up for a 25% reduction in your hourly wage at whatever it is you do if some "nobody" were willing to do your job for that amount?


 Whilst I can see your point, it may not be valid due to the fact of the free market and thousands of firms making the same product but all at different prices. Whilst that is not always palatable it is the price you pay for a free and open market as long as you do not infringe patents, have you registered the Defcon patent?? If someone does infringe then they just make the product under licence. If the product is not patent protected then I am afraid the op is entitled to do whatever he pleases and charge accordingly, sorry this is not what you want to hear, but it is true.


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## LOWTT225 (Oct 13, 2008)

I'm lucky my car has the mark 1 wish bones fitted :roll:


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## cookbot (Apr 19, 2011)

MCPaudiTT said:


> Quite dispappointed to see this thread. I am a one-man shop and don't feel in ANY way as I am overcharging for these parts. Obviously those interested in this post feel differently... Would you all be up for a 25% reduction in your hourly wage at whatever it is you do if some "nobody" were willing to do your job for that amount?


Let's be honest $125 for 2 machined 6061 alloy collars is excessive in anyone's books. A skilled machine operator can make these in 1.5 hours tops and that doesn't cost $$$'s in labor in material costs. DIY Anodizing is also easy and effective too have done plenty of bike components. As so as stated, it's a free market and they're hardly a hugely technical component. I'm not sure a patent could even be successfully applied for due to the nature of component.

Sorry, but people will vote with their pockets....


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## cookbot (Apr 19, 2011)

YT-TT said:


> set for sale here, maybe he will measure them for you?
> 
> viewtopic.php?f=15&t=293806


Already been down that route, but it's a no go. Got the vernier out yesterday and measured them up at the dealers, so not long now.


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## Tritium (Apr 25, 2011)

MCPaudiTT said:


> Quite dispappointed to see this thread. I am a one-man shop and don't feel in ANY way as I am overcharging for these parts. Obviously those interested in this post feel differently... Would you all be up for a 25% reduction in your hourly wage at whatever it is you do if some "nobody" were willing to do your job for that amount?


Well, regardless of the validity of your argument, competition rules. Most of us have directly experienced the impact of competition. In this current time, its called China and the Far East in general. The only logical response to competition is to provide the best quality products at the most competitive price with a service second to none. - That of course applies to both proponents in this discussion.
I think you must also bear in mind that not coming from our home market there will always be a natural allegiance to 'made in Britain'. In addition, the savings from no import duty or VAT ( assuming a non registered business supplier) will be attractive too.

For me, the deciding factor will be quality ( longevity of the bush) and price...

Brian


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## tricklexxx (Oct 21, 2010)

Tritium said:


> For me, the deciding factor will be longevity of the bush...
> 
> Brian


Have to agree, nothing worse than a baggy bush :lol:


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## Tritium (Apr 25, 2011)

tricklexxx said:


> Tritium said:
> 
> 
> > For me, the deciding factor will be longevity of the bush...
> ...


 :lol: :roll:

Brian


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## cookbot (Apr 19, 2011)

Tritium said:


> MCPaudiTT said:
> 
> 
> > Quite dispappointed to see this thread. I am a one-man shop and don't feel in ANY way as I am overcharging for these parts. Obviously those interested in this post feel differently... Would you all be up for a 25% reduction in your hourly wage at whatever it is you do if some "nobody" were willing to do your job for that amount?
> ...


Pretty much sums it up in one really. The guy who's doing for me also machines parts for aircraft, so I have faith that they'll be up to tolerance. Like I said before, they're not that difficult to make in the grand scheme of things.


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## merlin c (Jan 25, 2012)

Cookbot, I think you've made your point which many of us support, now make them and post the cost and we can start to get quality products at sensible prices..


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## 4ndrew (May 9, 2011)

I'd be interested in a set too, price dependent, a mod I've always wanted to do, but couldn't really justify the price....

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2


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## westcoTT (Aug 30, 2009)

I'd be interested in a set too, price dependent.


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## TTQ2K2 (Jun 25, 2009)

Competition and the desire to save a few quid are never justification for thievery. You guys should be better than that.


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## Wak (May 6, 2002)

I think you want to be competitive and make your own version of it then go ahead and take your own wishbone measurements and build your own.

Blatantly asking for the existing product to clone is taking the piss.. no two ways about it and justifying it as free world competition is just masking something that is just ethically wrong. 
(I'm sure MCP is feeling about this the same as Badger 5 feels about his TIP being cloned although his was cloned badly)

As for it being around £90-£100 
I'm no engineer or can put a price on materials and tooling but at a sensible hourly rate 
£50 in someones time and £20 of aluminum block plus some profit to help pay towards someones very expensive machinery and tooling doesnt seem like its expensive at all to me. 
Saying they only take around 1-1.5 hours to make is all fine but consider the cost of materials and tooling resources someone needs to machine them that they have to pay for before they really see any profit in their pockets whether its MCP or if its your mate!


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## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

This is plain copyright theft surely? To openly ask for someone to take technical measurements of another company's product for the sole purpose of making copies is the same as someone selling cheap Chinese knock-offs of branded goods.Trading Standards will be on you like a ton of bricks and rightly so.

What about testing? What about public liability? What happens if someone fits these and they fail causing an accident? Where would you stand then?

Save yourself the hassle and buy the originals. Mine have been on my car since personally importing them from Steve Schwing - another guy who stands by what he sells.


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## merlin c (Jan 25, 2012)

I would just like to point out that just because it has a cool name like 'Defcon' that does not change the fact that it is just a bush sleeve fitting, plain and simple and there are millions made every day all over the world, it seems to me the only difference is the application. Once in place not forgetting that its chilled fitment the forces of the rubber bush negate any chances of failure as the rubber bush holds everything in place by equalising the forces against the wishbone. Wear is the only real consideration because if and a very unlikey if it cracked the forces emparted by the bush would hold it in place, you would need a failure of the wishbone itself to cause a dangerous failure and that could happen with Defcons and you still would not have a leg to stand on as Audi probably dont recommend or endorse they're use, do they? Also you cannot patent or protect a measurement which is all the difference is as the material is readily available worldwide, so trading standards wont even blink. It may be 'morally' repugnent to some but that is business and totally legal, the only thing protected could be the name which I doubt as it is a military acronym.


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## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

merlin c said:


> I would just like to point out that just because it has a cool name like 'Defcon' that does not change the fact that it is just a bush sleeve fitting, plain and simple and there are millions made every day all over the world, it seems to me the only difference is the application. Once in place not forgetting that its chilled fitment the forces of the rubber bush negate any chances of failure as the rubber bush holds everything in place by equalising the forces against the wishbone. Wear is the only real consideration because if and a very unlikey if it cracked the forces emparted by the bush would hold it in place, you would need a failure of the wishbone itself to cause a dangerous failure and that could happen with Defcons and you still would not have a leg to stand on as Audi probably dont recommend or endorse they're use, do they? Also you cannot patent or protect a measurement which is all the difference is as the material is readily available worldwide, so trading standards wont even blink. It may be 'morally' repugnent to some but that is business and totally legal, the only thing protected could be the name which I doubt as it is a military acronym.


I don't care if it's called something boring like 'douche bag'. If this guy is stealing intellectual property (which he is) then why support it? If he wants to develop something new then great, let him do his own research and his own testing and come up with something better. That's what competition is all about.


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## merlin c (Jan 25, 2012)

Its just a bush sleeve, hardly any intellectual property there, however there is in its application, That is not enogh to stop someone manufacturing it at the same quality just cheaper, now that is what is called "competion", thats the real world I'm afraid and I know its not fair but its the way it is and always has been and will be.


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## Tritium (Apr 25, 2011)

You know guys, we are all guilty of buying copies in real life. 
Supermarkets do own label products based on branded goods. They are of similar, or equal quality and priced lower. "We" all buy a great deal of them. How do I know? - because having worked in the food industry for most of my life I been asked to do it many many times. I have also lived with similar competition in my own business and hopefully risen to the challenge to prevail in the end. The old saying goes "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery".

So how is this bush copy different? And why are some on here getting precious?

Of course, it has moral overtones. But that's life - anything of value is ultimately imitated; if or until proven useless compared to the original. I doubt any intellectual rights have/are being contravened. If they have, then MCPi has every right to complain and take appropriate action. Trading standards will only be interested if a law, of which many may apply here, has been broken.

Brian


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## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

merlin c said:


> Its just a bush sleeve, hardly any intellectual property there, however there is in its application, That is not enogh to stop someone manufacturing it at the same quality just cheaper, now that is what is called "competion", thats the real world I'm afraid and I know its not fair but its the way it is and always has been and will be.


Bollocks is it. He wants to steal a creative advantage. It's typical. We're becoming like Hong Kong was years ago. Steal an idea and make it better. It's theft.


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## OeTT (Nov 10, 2007)

How does this differ from companies making after market Arbs, springs, bushes, spoilers, grills lights etc.
They must measure up the OEM stuff to make sure it fits? 
Let's say someone measures up the defcons makes a copy and calls them icons.
They are not patented and thus not protected in any way.
As some have said, not perfect but not illegal either. If they can make them cheaper to the same quality then the original margins were too big. Great in the short term for the original seller but someone is always going to spot the opportunity to undercut. It's called competition.


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## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

OeTT said:


> They must measure up the OEM stuff to make sure it fits?


Yep.

This guy wants you to do it for him. He wants you to provide the information so he can copy it.

Why don't you just give me your bank details so I can 'borrow' some money.

FFS this is theft.


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## OeTT (Nov 10, 2007)

So if he buys a set and then copies it, it's OK?


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## cookbot (Apr 19, 2011)

Well this has started a heated debate! I'm going to buy a 1 meter 50mm bar and take it from there. That should be enough to make 11 sets and as for copying, I've used OE bushes for measurements and I'm planning to make some improvements to the original design to aid fitting, so these will be even better.

These have nothing to do with 'defcons' and are purely 'lower arm front bushes' any similarity's are purely circumstantial.


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## cookbot (Apr 19, 2011)

rustyintegrale said:


> OeTT said:
> 
> 
> > They must measure up the OEM stuff to make sure it fits?
> ...


That would be great if you could, just send it to:

[email protected]/national-bank-of-somalia

Thankyou please....


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## merlin c (Jan 25, 2012)

cookbot said:


> rustyintegrale said:
> 
> 
> > OeTT said:
> ...


 :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Tritium (Apr 25, 2011)

rustyintegrale said:


> OeTT said:
> 
> 
> > They must measure up the OEM stuff to make sure it fits?
> ...


Hmm, In common usage, theft is the taking of another person's property without that person's permission or consent with the intent to deprive the rightful owner of it.

The antithesis of competition is monopoly something abhorrent to most consumers. I suspect this is merely reducing a monopoly and no theft is/will take place.

Brian


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## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

Tritium said:


> rustyintegrale said:
> 
> 
> > OeTT said:
> ...


Bollocks.


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## merlin c (Jan 25, 2012)

> Bollocks.


That will move the debate on nicely Rusty :-*


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## OeTT (Nov 10, 2007)

i don't think there is a patent on those either, but I'm not letting anyone near mine with a vernier


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## ades tt 180 (Jun 19, 2011)

Just make them!...if people object or dont like what your doing then the only way they can dissaprove is by not buying them.


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## ricksimmonds (Oct 9, 2011)

i cant see the issue here...aslong as he doesnt copy the design and try and pass it off as a 'defcon' then it is fine. It is just a different branded lower arm...the same as you get lots of different branded products...cd's, batteries etc, all made to the same specification.

As said, just make them, plenty of people will buy them if they are decent. I suspect even a few of those opposing the idea now might be tempted if the product is proven to be equal to or better than its rivals and avaialbe at a lower cost


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## Duggy (May 17, 2005)

OeTT said:


> i don't think there is a patent on those either, but I'm not letting anyone near mine with a vernier


 :lol: :lol: :lol:

As well as being a bit harder to manufacture, I'd imagine... :roll:


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## Nick 225TT (Jun 6, 2008)

ricksimmonds said:


> i cant see the issue here...aslong as he doesnt copy the design and try and pass it off as a 'defcon' then it is fine. It is just a different branded lower arm...the same as you get lots of different branded products...cd's, batteries etc, all made to the same specification.
> 
> As said, just make them, plenty of people will buy them if they are decent. I suspect even a few of those opposing the idea now might be tempted if the product is proven to be equal to or better than its rivals and avaialbe at a lower cost


 + 1

Well said nothing wrong with DIY right


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## Tritium (Apr 25, 2011)

rustyintegrale said:


> Bollocks.


Thanks Rich nothing like an incisive response. Nice one. I respect your opinion - its just wrong in mine :lol:

Most product development involve buying in competitive products. Examining in detail and then producing a competitive item for sale in the same market sector - Plagiarism is rife in all industry whether you like it or not. This is thread is no different. At issue is whether or not legally intellectual or copyright theft might occur. The fact you don't like the idea matters not a jot in law. Business, like life can be tough - deal with it!

Brian


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## matty fitz (Feb 8, 2012)

They would be something pretty hard to patent really, just some inserts.

All you need to do is measure the orginal arms, make sure they are a interference fit, the tolerence is up to you. CNC manchine them to the correct size, anodize them and you have the excat copy.

But the reason these are expensive is that they would have been extensively tested for the correct fit and life cycled. your not just paying for the product saying that would cost this much in materials so i could make one as cheap. you paying for all the R&D thats gone into it.

In the end it comes down to how good you are on machines.
Matty


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## ades tt 180 (Jun 19, 2011)

If i wanted to start a company making brake pads or exhausts...which is perfectly legit....i would have to copy other manufacturers parts and copy them exactly....any alteration in size or shape would render them useless cos they wouldnt fit...so whats the difference?...


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## matty fitz (Feb 8, 2012)

with brake pads you would copy the size and shape as they would have to fit into the calipers. but it would be the material they are made out of and the method they are constructed.

Would you make breke pads yourself but using any old material? i know i wouldnt. i dont want to die.

You can go ahead and make inserts out of tubing but they wouldnt be that good wouldnt really last long and maybe move about and fail. but im all up for being proven wrong and someone makes them and it being amazing.

I will eat my hat [smiley=baby.gif]


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## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

merlin c said:


> > Bollocks.
> 
> 
> That will move the debate on nicely Rusty :-*


Yeah I thought it was time I left the thread! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Seriously though, this type of thing really does make my blood boil. I've been a victim of it myself on several occasions and no matter what you do to protect your design or your product there's always someone who wants to avoid the hard work and steal the profit.


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## Duggy (May 17, 2005)

matty fitz said:


> They would be something pretty hard to patent really, just some inserts.
> 
> All you need to do is measure the orginal arms, make sure they are a interference fit, the tolerence is up to you. CNC manchine them to the correct size, anodize them and you have the excat copy.
> 
> ...


The patent (if there is one) would more likely be applied to how they are used, in the constraints of the suspension system, not that it is just a tubular insert.

The rest you state is totally true, research, testing, development and more testing is what costs the money, not a small part.

I have a genuine set of defcons waiting to be fitted, IMHO, the cost of these compared to the cost of other suspension components (coilovers, arbs and even poly bushes), tied in with the amount they change the handling, make them a bargin


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## Tritium (Apr 25, 2011)

rustyintegrale said:


> merlin c said:
> 
> 
> > > Bollocks.
> ...


Never have guessed! But don't leave! At least the OP can decide if he's being a Tw*t or not in doing this 'copying'

Brian


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## rory182 (Apr 15, 2011)

I'm a design engineer myself and I'm also after some defcons for my TT and I'm a bit tight.... I don't have a problem with an individual making some for themselves to save on price. However I would rather buy the original Defcon design to support the original R&D / innovation.

I agree with WAK entirely. The request is awfully blatant and insensitive a bit like Chinese IP infringement.

sorry if it's not what you want to hear, just my tuppence worth.


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## cookbot (Apr 19, 2011)

I was going to measure a set of defcons to make a set for myself and maybe a few spare sets, but as there's so much interest, I'm doing these from scratch and planning a few little revisions too.


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## A8VCG (May 9, 2011)

I can't believe what I'm reading here guys -

Good luck & Good night


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## cookbot (Apr 19, 2011)

Well, after a long few months of being busy, I Finally got round to making these and holy shizer, it's steers well now. I did the poly bush front and rear at the same time, so the results are probably a little tighter on mine.

So, not the test set have been made, testing to be done and revisions to be made, who fancies a pair???


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## t'mill (Jul 31, 2012)

Count me in.


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## ades tt 180 (Jun 19, 2011)

I would be interested too...how much are they?


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## Garth (Feb 7, 2012)

ades tt 180 said:


> I would be interested too...how much are they?


Me too :grin:


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## cookbot (Apr 19, 2011)

The more that commit, the less they'll be. Hoping to make 10 pairs for the first batch, although could commit to more if the interest is there. Expecting them to come in at about £50 delivered, but I want to do a second set with the revised sizes first and se how they go. The original ones needed 25 tons of pressure to get them in the arms. Suffice to say, they're not going to come loose any time soon!

Interest list so far:

T'mill
Ades TT 180
Garth
corradoman
Jay-225
superkarl
mullum
nate42
lotuselanplus2s


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## corradoman (Sep 11, 2010)

A set for me please


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## mstew (Mar 17, 2012)

25 tons? That is quite abit! Mine went in with a hand wound press.....


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## Jay-225 (Mar 7, 2012)

Yes Please


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## superkarl (Oct 25, 2012)

this is a nice idea and great for the community.
defcons are extortionate.

has anybody gone from the large poly to small poly and noticed real benefits?


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## mullum (Sep 16, 2011)

Has anyone fitted a "Caster correction" bush (front wishbone rear - made by Whiteline W53189, and Superpro SPF3397K also, I believe).
Heard good things about this mod also .. Better "turn in" ..
Thread : viewtopic.php?f=2&t=182631&p=1845607&hilit=defcon+superpro
Lots of suspension bushes info/ideas here too : viewtopic.php?t=185897
I'm interested too by the way ...


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## cookbot (Apr 19, 2011)

For some reason I was under the influence that Super pro didn't make a 30mm spacer, only the but a little look has changed all that. Wish I'd bought those instead of the powerflex ones as I've got superpro on the rest of the car! Might have to pull them off and fit some new ones, cus I'm anal like that!


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## mullum (Sep 16, 2011)

Haha I know exactly what you mean, and I couldn't find a superpro 30mm bush either ! (You said "spacer" but pretty sure you meant"bush" ;-) ) So what's the code for the superpro one then ?


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## cookbot (Apr 19, 2011)

SPF1915K

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VW-Golf-M...arts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item35c563dfd6

These bad boys.


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## mullum (Sep 16, 2011)

Ahh yes, it's listed in the link I posted earlier (which I found today, before I bought powerflex 30mm bushes).
Cheers ..

Slightly better price here : http://bit.ly/11Gi8A8


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## stewbieTT (Jun 23, 2012)

I came across this epic build thread the other day on Cupra net and this guy also made his own defcon copies and went with the Whiteline caster bushes, see post #62:

http://www.seatcupra.net/forums/showthr ... 001&page=4


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## Kprincess (Aug 19, 2012)

cookbot said:


> Well this has started a heated debate! I'm going to buy a 1 meter 50mm bar and take it from there. That should be enough to make 11 sets and as for copying, I've used OE bushes for measurements and I'm planning to make some improvements to the original design to aid fitting, so these will be even better.
> 
> These have nothing to do with 'defcons' and are purely 'lower arm front bushes' any similarity's are purely circumstantial.


+q


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## Kprincess (Aug 19, 2012)

cookbot wrote:
rustyintegrale wrote:
OeTT wrote:
They must measure up the OEM stuff to make sure it fits?

Why don't you just give me your bank details so I can 'borrow' some money.

That would be great if you could, just send it to:

[email protected]/national-bank-of-somalia

Thankyou please....

I'll take two :lol:


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## Kprincess (Aug 19, 2012)

rustyintegrale said:


> merlin c said:
> 
> 
> > > Bollocks.
> ...


Best way to resolve that would be a patent in the product and then you sue the crap out of who ever tries to copy it


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## Kprincess (Aug 19, 2012)

stewbieTT said:


> I came across this epic build thread the other day on Cupra net and this guy also made his own defcon copies and went with the Whiteline caster bushes, see post #62:
> 
> http://www.seatcupra.net/forums/showthr ... 001&page=4


Awesome


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## cookbot (Apr 19, 2011)

Right then, of those that have spoke their interest, it's time to pick a colour for the hard anodising. Black is probably the best, but dark blue and dark red are also available.

Majority vote wins for this batch!


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## ades tt 180 (Jun 19, 2011)

Do they have to be anodised?...would it be cheaper if it is not needed?...if they do then im not fussed what colour they are because they wont be seen...


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## t'mill (Jul 31, 2012)

Same here. Is one particular colour harder wearing than the other as a matter of interest? Sorry, I don't know much about anodising!


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## cookbot (Apr 19, 2011)

They're all about 50 microns thick, but I imagine black will look the nicest for longest. I know some people really like their anodised stuff even if you can't see it though.

The pair on my car aren't anodised, but I'd prefere if they were, that way you definitely know they'll last against the elements.


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## mstew (Mar 17, 2012)

Erm...someone is selling MK1 wishbones over on uk-mkivs.net right now, 170 incl p&p....


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## Kprincess (Aug 19, 2012)

My guess on colour is that if they are no painted, they will rust and more awkward to get out if required but thats just my opinion.


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## cookbot (Apr 19, 2011)

Yea, hard anodising does make it pretty corrosion resistant! Found the old bushes had seized in bad enough to break out the oxyacetylene and learn them good, haha. Should be ready by the end of next week at the latest.


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## t'mill (Jul 31, 2012)

Do these collars just fit on the front, or would we need 2 pairs so a pair can go on the rear arb?


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## mullum (Sep 16, 2011)

Just the front


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## Kprincess (Aug 19, 2012)

mstew said:


> Erm...someone is selling MK1 wishbones over on uk-mkivs.net right now, 170 incl p&p....


  for seconds 
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AUDI-TT-FRONT ... 314817811#


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## mstew (Mar 17, 2012)

Kprincess said:


> mstew said:
> 
> 
> > Erm...someone is selling MK1 wishbones over on uk-mkivs.net right now, 170 incl p&p....
> ...


Yes but the ones I found have the smaller front bush, so no need for defcon's.

If anyone was interested I don't mind passing over details to the bloke....just thought some people might like to know


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## Kprincess (Aug 19, 2012)

mstew said:


> Kprincess said:
> 
> 
> > mstew said:
> ...


Now I understand 

Thanks


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## mullum (Sep 16, 2011)

mstew said:


> Erm...someone is selling MK1 wishbones over on uk-mkivs.net right now, 170 incl p&p....


Great post, when you consider the cost of defcons that's not a bad option at all.


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## lotuselanplus2s (Jun 18, 2012)

I get involved in Patent's & design registrations quite a bit & I think there's a bit of misunderstanding here about what you can patent.

A patent protects new inventions and covers how things work, what they do, how they do it, what they are made of and how they are made. However the critical thing is the invention must be registered, be new & have an "inventive step" that is not obvious to someone with knowledge and experience in the subject.

Most of the above is taken from HMPO (her majesty's patent office) but in plain english it means defcon's IMO aren't covered by a patent as:
1. I don't know of a patent for them
2. anyone with knowledge & experience of the issue knows that a metal bush would solve the problem (but few have bothered to make them)

On a wider note, it costs huge amounts in legal fee's to enforce a patent through the courts so nobody in their right mind would prosecute a few car nerds on TT Forum for making some metal bush's.

The moral aspects are however a different issue- you have to make up your own minds as to whether you want to buy Defcon's or Fakecon's.


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## t'mill (Jul 31, 2012)

Fakecons please!


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## cookbot (Apr 19, 2011)

Fakecons in this instance will be better and not some Chinese knock off shit, but decide for yourself:

Engineered in Sheffield (hmmm, ins't that one of the world leading citys for specialist metals?), anodised in Nottingham.

Made from 6081-T4 alloy, the strongest and most corrosion resistant of all the 6000 series alloys compared to the 6061-T6 of the originals.

Not only hard anodised, but with a coating of PTFE to help prevent wear to the hard anodised surface where the rubber bush makes contact with the insert.

Many of you may think I'm some random guy in a shed just knocking crap out, but the reality is I actually spent 7 years as an aircraft engineer.

Make of this what you will. The decision after all is yours and yours alone to make.


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## lotuselanplus2s (Jun 18, 2012)

Apologies, I forgot to add please could you put me down for some Fakecon's also.

I'd love to see your 'shed' if you're knocking these out in it!

BTW the Chinese versions are Dufcons and the Indian versions are Completecons

(apologies for insulting a good % of the world's population).

Sent from my BlackBerry 9790 using Tapatalk


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## Kprincess (Aug 19, 2012)

cookbot said:


> Yea, hard anodising does make it pretty corrosion resistant! Found the old bushes had seized in bad enough to break out the oxyacetylene and learn them good, haha. Should be ready by the end of next week at the latest.


The mechanic at the garage did say they were seized in solid but as they have a press got them out but had to clean the hole and refit the new bushes which were from GSF as the ECP ones don't last long.

Thanks


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## Gone (May 5, 2009)

cookbot said:


> Engineered in Sheffield (hmmm, ins't that one of the world leading citys for specialist metals?)


No, no it isn't. It was one of the biggest steel producing towns many years ago, but not any more and hasn't been for many years.


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## cookbot (Apr 19, 2011)

Kprincess said:


> cookbot said:
> 
> 
> > Yea, hard anodising does make it pretty corrosion resistant! Found the old bushes had seized in bad enough to break out the oxyacetylene and learn them good, haha. Should be ready by the end of next week at the latest.
> ...


Just make sure they don't apply too much pressure and bend the arm. As it's quite an awkward shape to get in the press, I opted for the 'burn the sh*t out of it' approach to good effect.

For those of you looking at poly bush, I've just received my superpro ones, and as expected the quality of design and feel is far greater than the powerflex ones. They're also about £10 less!


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## cookbot (Apr 19, 2011)

Gone Ape said:


> cookbot said:
> 
> 
> > Engineered in Sheffield (hmmm, ins't that one of the world leading citys for specialist metals?)
> ...


The specialist steels are still done here, basically the expensive stuff China/India haven't got the expertise to make. The metal working/engineering heritage is still there.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

cookbot said:


> Not only hard anodised


I think you probably mean standard anodised (type II). Hard anodising (type III) probably doesn't serve much purpose here as wear resistance isn't necessary and the additional coating thickness might throw off your tolerances.


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## cookbot (Apr 19, 2011)

Spandex said:


> cookbot said:
> 
> 
> > Not only hard anodised
> ...


Yea, I was a little indecisive too, but the extra 0.05mm of anodising has been accounted for and there's not much more cost involved really, so thought what the hell.... Tougher is best!


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

cookbot said:


> Spandex said:
> 
> 
> > cookbot said:
> ...


Then you may need to be careful with tolerances as I think it's hard to get consistant thicknesses with anodised coatings and obviously the thicker the coating, the more room for error. Thinner coatings might actually give better quality control.


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## Kprincess (Aug 19, 2012)

Kprincess wrote:
cookbot wrote:
Yea, hard anodising does make it pretty corrosion resistant! Found the old bushes had seized in bad enough to break out the oxyacetylene and learn them good, haha. Should be ready by the end of next week at the latest.

The mechanic at the garage did say they were seized in solid but as they have a press got them out but had to clean the hole and refit the new bushes which were from GSF as the ECP ones don't last long.

Thanks

Just make sure they don't apply too much pressure and bend the arm. As it's quite an awkward shape to get in the press, I opted for the 'burn the sh*t out of it' approach to good effect.

For those of you looking at poly bush, I've just received my superpro ones, and as expected the quality of design and feel is far greater than the powerflex ones. They're also about £10 less!

Doesn't burning the metal weaken them?.

Got a part number?.

Thanks


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## cookbot (Apr 19, 2011)

Kprincess said:


> Kprincess wrote:
> cookbot wrote:
> Yea, hard anodising does make it pretty corrosion resistant! Found the old bushes had seized in bad enough to break out the oxyacetylene and learn them good, haha. Should be ready by the end of next week at the latest.
> 
> ...


SPF1915K


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## cookbot (Apr 19, 2011)

Kprincess said:


> Kprincess wrote:
> cookbot wrote:
> Yea, hard anodising does make it pretty corrosion resistant! Found the old bushes had seized in bad enough to break out the oxyacetylene and learn them good, haha. Should be ready by the end of next week at the latest.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info, I'll have a look into it as anodising isn't my forte!


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## Kprincess (Aug 19, 2012)

Thank you for the part number to cookbot


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## mullum (Sep 16, 2011)

If anyone needs any front wishbone poly bushes or even genuine defcons - sooner than later, pm me. I recently bought the whole lot and now won't be getting them fitted due to a change of circumstances.

For anyone looking to do this great mod you could get the whole setup in one go without having to research the whole subject (like I did) by relieving me of all the brand new boxed parts I diligently sourced from all the cheapest suppliers.

The front wishbone rear bush I bought is the "caster correction" poly bush which further improves "turn in".
Also, with regards to using superpro in the front bush - there's anecdotal evidence that in fact the powerflex variant "feels better" - whereas the superpro "last longer" (the powerflex still outlasting standard rubber bushes of course). So for normal road driving, as opposed to track day driving, the powerflex may be more suitable. I'll be selling that bush too.

Typically, in fact, the defcon "setups" use the OEM rubber bushes in the front and rear positions - reserving poly (and delrin) bushes for more "race performance" setups ..


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## Kprincess (Aug 19, 2012)

What defcons?.

Does it matter which ones or can someone point me in the right direction please?.


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## Skeee (Jun 9, 2009)

Kprincess said:


> What defcons?.
> 
> Does it matter which ones or can *someone point me in the right direction please*?.


Sink or oven you pick! :lol:


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## Skeee (Jun 9, 2009)




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## cookbot (Apr 19, 2011)

Sorry abou the delay, although they're being made now, so not too long to go.


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## Kprincess (Aug 19, 2012)

Skeee said:


> Kprincess said:
> 
> 
> > What defcons?.
> ...


Oi you!!! don't you get smart as my BB BAT is close by :twisted: :wink:

And hiding wont help as I will find you [smiley=baby.gif]


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## Kprincess (Aug 19, 2012)

cookbot said:


> Sorry abou the delay, although they're being made now, so not too long to go.


Are they coming along  hope they work or may have to buy some of those pflex ones.


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## cookbot (Apr 19, 2011)

Right, a little update. They're back from the machine shop (they took forever!) and are going to the anodisers on Monday. Should be couple of days for that and I'll be collecting them on Friday.


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## Kprincess (Aug 19, 2012)

cookbot said:


> Right, a little update. They're back from the machine shop (they took forever!) and are going to the anodisers on Monday. Should be couple of days for that and I'll be collecting them on Friday.


Pictures cookie ?

btw are they dangerous? will they pop out whilst pushing 140mph down tracks :?: safety first and foremost ...


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## cookbot (Apr 19, 2011)

I'll bang some pics up when they're back as I'm away from home at the moment.

Although nothing can ever be 100% certain, I'd say these will never come out while driving - or any other time for that matter! the forces placed upon them while driving are acting in the wrong planes. Through the vertical axis during normal suspension movement, through the left-right axis during cornering and as there is two fixing points of the lower arm to the car, again only left-right loading during braking/acceleration. For the bush to come out, it would have to be moved in the for-aft plane and that just can't happen.

You'd also have to exert a few ton on it to get it out too, as they're an interference fit!

In answer to your Q, no they're not dangerous.


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## Kprincess (Aug 19, 2012)

cookbot said:


> I'll bang some pics up when they're back as I'm away from home at the moment.
> 
> Although nothing can ever be 100% certain, I'd say these will never come out while driving - or any other time for that matter! the forces placed upon them while driving are acting in the wrong planes. Through the vertical axis during normal suspension movement, through the left-right axis during cornering and as there is two fixing points of the lower arm to the car, again only left-right loading during braking/acceleration. For the bush to come out, it would have to be moved in the for-aft plane and that just can't happen.
> 
> ...


Sorry for the confusion as I now understand that they are pressed in at 10 ton + and they are only sleeves for the bushes  
Can't wait to see the finished product [smiley=gossip.gif]

Many thanks

Kal


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## keithtd (Aug 22, 2007)

Good on you for having a go but for heavens sake don't let Gazzer or the rest of the safety brigade see this thread. :lol:


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## cookbot (Apr 19, 2011)

keithtd said:


> Good on you for having a go but for heavens sake don't let Gazzer or the rest of the safety brigade see this thread. :lol:


Yea, had a read of your tiebar thread and it's always the same with any car forum. If I gave myself a motorsport company name and a fancy website, people wouldn't question things so much, but as I'm only an enthusiast, it seems that people sometimes think everything I make is just going to instantly break!


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## cookbot (Apr 19, 2011)

Kprincess said:


> cookbot said:
> 
> 
> > I'll bang some pics up when they're back as I'm away from home at the moment.
> ...


Thanks, I fitted my preproduction ones along with full poly bush and R32 arb's so couldn't tell you the effect of just the bush. Has made a hell of a difference to the cars handling for the better though. Just a tiny bit of oversteer which is perfect for me.


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## Kprincess (Aug 19, 2012)

Cookies, you've had a lot done then 

Good to see you and others doing your own thing even when getting slatted as it has flip all to do with these haters who had to pay out hundreds to get theirs where you have paid half of that :wink:

I can't wait till all my moddies get fitted and hoping I will have a solid suspension set up, power up with a sleek look to add the finishing touch 

Well done [smiley=thumbsup.gif]


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## t'mill (Jul 31, 2012)

How much are these going to cost delivered cookbot man?


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## keithtd (Aug 22, 2007)

cookbot said:


> keithtd said:
> 
> 
> > Good on you for having a go but for heavens sake don't let Gazzer or the rest of the safety brigade see this thread. :lol:
> ...


How true and the fact is these things are more often made with a great deal of care by people who know what they're doing - I'm not sure you can say that about much of the stuff that is mass made. I bought two different parts from reputable rally suppliers both of which were appalling and both sent back. For those who recognise the following : one screw jack with a 5/8" thread was supposed to have a nominal od of 0.625" it was in fact oval with the widest point at 0.617" and the smallest at 0.567" thats a 50 thou difference which is not only a disgrace but means at some points the threads are hardly meshed and actually makes using the part dangerous.
No doubt those that question what we're doing would be quite happy to buy and install such bits - good luck to them. :lol: 
Keep up the good work mate. :wink:


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## cookbot (Apr 19, 2011)

Got 20 pairs been anodised today and this batch will be £50 posted to the UK. Correction, 19 pairs. One set are destined for my car :smile:


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## ©hatterBox (Aug 10, 2010)

cookbot said:


> Got 20 pairs been anodised today and this batch will be £50 posted to the UK. Correction, 19 pairs. One set are destined for my car :smile:


Please put me down for one set of these! Will be going away on holiday end of week but will pay a deposit if required to secure a set.


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## t'mill (Jul 31, 2012)

Put me down for a set as well cookbot man


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## jamman (May 6, 2002)

Good price point, good luck with them matey


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## 4ndrew (May 9, 2011)

Can take me off the list, demodding to sell. But best of luck! 

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 2


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## cookbot (Apr 19, 2011)

t'mill said:


> Put me down for a set as well cookbot man


You were first on the list!


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## t'mill (Jul 31, 2012)

Call me Mr Eager :lol:


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## Garth (Feb 7, 2012)

cookbot said:


> t'mill said:
> 
> 
> > Put me down for a set as well cookbot man
> ...


Where am I on said list? ;-)


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## mullum (Sep 16, 2011)

3rd (now 2nd  ) I'm now 6th :lol:


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## westcoTT (Aug 30, 2009)

I would like a set too please


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## Jay-225 (Mar 7, 2012)

still want mine thanks


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## gadgetboy38 (Mar 9, 2005)

Did u manage to get all the measurements u needed ? i have a set of defcons sitting here i can measure for you.

Charles


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## tatoquetevi (Oct 11, 2011)

Are you thinking in international business? :lol:

You can do it in ebay or something like that, I've always wanted this mod, but the price was too high...now, this is not a problem


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## cookbot (Apr 19, 2011)

gadgetboy38 said:


> Did u manage to get all the measurements u needed ? i have a set of defcons sitting here i can measure for you.
> 
> Charles


That's ok, but thanks for the offer. They're are finished now and I'll be collecting them tomorrow.


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## cookbot (Apr 19, 2011)

tatoquetevi said:


> Are you thinking in international business? :lol:
> 
> You can do it in ebay or something like that, I've always wanted this mod, but the price was too high...now, this is not a problem


No probs posting to Spain, I'm already sending a pair to Finland. Potage will be more, but I shouldn't expect too much more.


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## dwillard (Apr 15, 2013)

I'm a bit late on the uptake on this thread but I think this looks like a great handling upgrade for the money. Having had a stage 1 remap this seems to be the perfect accompanyment - actually being able to steer round corners; not spin the ships wheel to get round the corner!  
Please put me down for a set if you have some still available, how are you taking payment?
Regards
Dave


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## cookbot (Apr 19, 2011)

dwillard said:


> I'm a bit late on the uptake on this thread but I think this looks like a great handling upgrade for the money. Having had a stage 1 remap this seems to be the perfect accompanyment - actually being able to steer round corners; not spin the ships wheel to get round the corner!
> Please put me down for a set if you have some still available, how are you taking payment?
> Regards
> Dave


No probs, I've added you to the list. Even though I hate to say it, but PayPal is probably the easiest way even if it is more a rip off than I thought.

Postage and making the actual things work out more than expect, so with this in mind, I'm setting them at £60, first class posted and inclusive of PayPal fees.


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## cookbot (Apr 19, 2011)

Was unable to collect them on Fri, due to it taking me 8 hours to drive home and missing the anodisers. Have to wait to tue now :sad:


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## cookbot (Apr 19, 2011)

Anyone that made their original interests known, I've got 7 pairs (did have 10) of superpro bush that I can supply pre fitted and ready to be pressed in. This basically saves you a few £ and saves you the utter ball ache of getting them in!

and thanks to those who have already got their sets. It wouldn't have happened without a little faith!

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2


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## xiphon (Dec 8, 2011)

cookbot, I've PM'd you


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## cookbot (Apr 19, 2011)

As promised, I've now got a few pairs ready with the superpro bush already fitted. For anyone thinking of buying these and fitting the superpro bush themselves, it won't happen regardless how big you press or vice is.

Here they are with the bushes fitted, although 2 pairs are already spoken for.







[/URL]







[/URL]

And here is the mystery tool I made to fit the damn things! It's basically a bigger version that fits over with a tapered bore. Works a treat!







[/URL]


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## t'mill (Jul 31, 2012)

Cookbotcons & bushes received today  Super swift service cookbot-man. Can't wait to fit them in August.


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## dwillard (Apr 15, 2013)

As an aside what are people declaring this modification defcon or cookbotscons as to the insurance companies? It was after all a recall by Audi to change these if I have read up correctly. [smiley=book2.gif] 
Cheers
Dave


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## CRU57Y (Feb 3, 2013)

This mod makes your suspension how it was "BEFORE" Audi recalled them and made it sloppy.

Cheers.


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## cookbot (Apr 19, 2011)

t'mill said:


> Cookbotcons & bushes received today  Super swift service cookbot-man. Can't wait to fit them in August.


August???? Get em smashed on your car!


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## t'mill (Jul 31, 2012)

Haha, I would but I'm going for a complete suspension refresh now the cars got 102k on it. I'm in the process of sourcing all the parts from the best and keenly priced places ready for them all to be fitted pre-mot


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## dwillard (Apr 15, 2013)

CRU57Y said:


> This mod makes your suspension how it was "BEFORE" Audi recalled them and made it sloppy.
> 
> Cheers.


Hi
Well yes I know this returns it to how it was 'pre recall'. I am looking forward to the TT handling much better and reducing the masive understeer. The point I am making is do you need to declare this to the insurance company you are with and what do you say you have done? Returned the steering to what the manufacturer thought was 'unsafe'?
Cheers
Dave


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## Tritium (Apr 25, 2011)

dwillard said:


> Hi
> Well yes I know this returns it to how it was 'pre recall'. I am looking forward to the TT handling much better and reducing the masive understeer. The point I am making is do you need to declare this to the insurance company you are with and what do you say you have done? Returned the steering to what the manufacturer thought was 'unsafe'?
> Cheers
> Dave


Your question implies you don't really want to tell them if you don't have to? :? 
Why not contact them and play safe and declare the mod?

Brian


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## dwillard (Apr 15, 2013)

Tritium said:


> dwillard said:
> 
> 
> > Hi
> ...


Hi Brian,
It's more a case of what exactly do you tell the insurance company you changed? Do you just say its a 'steering upgrade' or get right down to specifics? As I think everyone knows how the insurance guys don't need much excuse to load your premiums higher than even Richard Branson can afford. Just curious to know what all of the other 'diligent and honest' 8) owners have exactly declared they have done? 
Come on folks I'm not the only one fitting this (I haven't put them in yet so I have nothing to feel guilty about at the moment which is how I kind of read your inference in your reply to my question), what have you told your insurance company you have done to the steering?
Thanks
Dave


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## Shootist (Mar 10, 2013)

I always thought that insurance companies needed to know about any performance enhancing modifications. I suppose also my definition of performance enhancing really means power output or change to acceleration or top speed. Otherwise every time we added anything to our cars would require them to be told.

So as I see it these do not improve the power, top speed or acceleration and therefore I feel they would just potentially bump the premium up for no realistic reason if told.

I cannot see how having a sticker on your car should affect insurance but I have in the past been told that any stickers on your vehicle bodywork that were not there when you bought the car should be declared also.

IMHO insurance companies just want any excuse these days.


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## cookbot (Apr 19, 2011)

Interesting perspective on things! I wonder as the car was designed for 98ron petrol, do you have to declare using 99ron as it is technically a performance enhancing fuel, :grin:

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2


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## ord4668 (Jun 24, 2013)

Hello All. I have recently bought a 3.2 6v with Bilstein PSS fitted. I have noticed some play in the shocks. Does anyone know where I can buy just the shocks and not the complete coilover kit?
Thanks in advance


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

Technically, you're supposed to declare any change from standard components, regardless of whether or not they improve performance. Different wheels for example, don't make your car any faster, but your insurer would want to know.

Petrol choice is obviously up to you.


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## *adam (Jun 8, 2013)

As it left the factory, *anything* added after it left the production line is a modification.


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