# understeer: the never ending nightmare



## murkedTT (May 19, 2010)

it makes me [email protected] sick. tryin to put a tt into a corner properly is a challenge as most of you know. i hear of people actually being able to produce oversteer which is much better in my opinion. my question is how can us tt'ers get are cars tracking correctly. new shocks, struts, springs.. new arbs. lets just have a lil convo about the handling of our beloved machines in all aspects. bicker away


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## laurence jr (May 17, 2010)

Until I lowered mine the handling was pants even now Its not as good as I thought It would be


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## Mule (Jul 12, 2010)

A very good suspension (bilstein PSS10) and a thicker ARB in the rear. Adjust the camber in the front and it will be sharp and crisp in the corners.

Camber setting should be somewhere aroung 1,5 in the front. 0,4 in the rear.


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## Charlie (Dec 15, 2006)

Mule said:


> A very good suspension (bilstein PSS10) and a thicker ARB in the rear. Adjust the camber in the front and it will be sharp and crisp in the corners.
> 
> Camber setting should be somewhere aroung 1,5 in the front. 0,4 in the rear.


I don't think those camber settings are wise :? anything over 1.28 at the front is outside recommended paramaters and 0.4 at the back is a world away from the -1 I was recommended by the Sultan of Staines (Wak)

I have FK coilovers, R32 arb's front and rear and Defcon2 bushes and understeer is not apparent.

I still have that fwd drive FK kit available mate, perfect for your car and has adjustable damping too 

Charlie


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## Mondo (Feb 20, 2009)

Charlie said:


> '...the Sultan of Staines (Wak)...'


 :wink:


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## Charlie (Dec 15, 2006)

Mondo said:


> Charlie said:
> 
> 
> > '...the Sultan of Staines (Wak)...'
> ...


I can't take credit for that Rayetta it was Daz I nicked it from (DAZTTC) I have actually pm'd Wak as thought he may be amused by it 

Charlie


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## swfblade (Apr 24, 2007)

Got R32 ARB's fitted to mine yesterday, still on stock suspension etc. Understeer is all but gone 8)


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## Dash (Oct 5, 2008)

Drive slower...


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## murkedTT (May 19, 2010)

charlie your killin me man hahah i want them so bad you have no idea.. but my wallet is about as thick as paper right now hahaha. where is the best place to purchase arbs? and dash this is all on a closed track.. im not haulin ass up to the next light droppin it into second and attempting to drift my way straight to jail :lol: i took the tt out to a local track thats shut down. a few of my buddies and i found a nice place to get it and its in the middle of nowhere so hey why not put down some laps haha. lovin the feed back though guys. what are everyones opinions on wheels? do they make a difference in handling? obviously they can effect it somehow. im just not 100% clear on it. i do plan on finding the lightest set of 17s i can but i wanna know if itll be worth it in the long run. keep in mind this car will be for track use only here in a few years.


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## Mondo (Feb 20, 2009)

Charlie, Charlie, Charlie... DazTT was quoting me! Have a look above his post. I dunno, some people... :roll:


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## drjam (Apr 7, 2006)

Dash said:


> Drive slower...


Or drive better...

Serious point with no offence meant (so if you're already an experienced, expert driver then ignore this), but it amazes me how many people go straight to spending money upgrading bits of the car, when the same or less money spent upgrading the most likely weak point - the driver - would probably be more effective. And be transferable to any future car.
Plus hooning round an airfield or such like on a driver training / handling type course is a great laugh.


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## Guest (Aug 18, 2010)

I can honestly say that I have never noticed my QS understeering. It seems to go round corners and roundabouts (wet or dry) like its on rails. Even if I boot it in the wet, I get a twitch of oversteer. Must be the blue Haldex doing its stuff... I didn't think there was that much difference between the 225 and QS and the mods suggested by Charlie are enough to remove understeer in 225 cars.

I discovered a few weeks back from http://www.fastestlaps.com/comparisons/ ... rt_8N.html that it can lap the Nordschleife short circuit in about the same time as a 1991 Honda NSX, so they can't be that difficult to set up for corners. :?

ttSteve seems to object to people using the word nightmare when it isn't an actual nightmare, so I would expect him to post up here in the fullness of time to criticise your use of unwarranted hyperbole, so I won't bother. :wink:

Doug


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## Charlie (Dec 15, 2006)

Doug Short said:


> ttSteve seems to object to people using the word nightmare when it isn't an actual nightmare, so I would expect him to post up here in the fullness of time to criticise your use of unwarranted hyperbole, so I won't bother. :wink:
> 
> Doug


 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: and reference to 17" wheels of course - come on Steve where are you dude? 

Charlie


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## Hark (Aug 23, 2007)

I think even with coilovers and thicker arbs the TT still will tend to understeer if you really push it. Just depends how hard you push.

I can still get mine to understeer running a slightly thicker rear arb and KW coilovers on medium. I've seen Daz understeer and over correct :lol: running Konis on full hard and R32 arbs.

I think it's a part of the car and the fwd bias. Blue haldex will help, but again Daz has this. It's the nature of the car I think. Does make it alot safer in the wet though when driving quickly.


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## Gone (May 5, 2009)

I felt mine understeer very badly once. I went round a 90 degree righthander so quick all the tyres made a little sad noise and it rolled a bit and understeered a over towards the empty bus stop run-off area. I found the limit so now, I just back away from that a bit and no problems.

Probably R32 ARBS would have helped more but I have heard in the wet the stiffer set up really tightens the limit up, and I drive in Wales quite a lot. Happy as I am really.


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## Fred (Jan 7, 2010)

It makes me laugh everytime somebody complains about understeer.

Save your money trying to 'fix' it and go on a driver training course....

http://www.donpalmer.co.uk/

You would not only be faster, but a safer driver.


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## swfblade (Apr 24, 2007)

I have to disagree. Its not always the driver.

As an example, I know corners that I could put either of my Corrado's through at a certain, yet not fast, speed and they would eat it up. In the TT its just not possible and understeer is present. A couple hundred quid later and my R32 ARB's have cured this.

Its also a well known fact that Audi dialed in some understeer and took out some over when the TT went thru its early recall phase. Hence things like defcon.


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## KentishTT (Jun 28, 2007)

I had R32 ARB's front & rear, Defcon2 kit, coilovers and spacers with 8.5" width wheels and that all helped and I could get oversteer if I pushed the car hard.

The problem with the TT I found was actually getting a good "feel" for what was happening and you do get used to that and after a while it appears normal but if you get in another car with a great chassis like a Focus you can tell that the TT is a bit lacking in handling, even after suspension upgrades.

Incidentally, changing just the rear ARB to a stiffer one and keeping a standard diameter front one should help a lot with understeer.


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## Fred (Jan 7, 2010)

I should have explained what I meant a bit better.

I totally agree the car is setup with understeer as a priority.

However... If you getting understeer on the road you either have A. really bad tyres or B. are using a stupid driving technique.

I frequently drive very demanding country lanes at 9/10ths and never once have I gone "oh it understeered through there".


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## swfblade (Apr 24, 2007)

I must be stupid then. :roll:


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## Fred (Jan 7, 2010)

No offence, but you must be if your getting understeer on a public road.

The simple fact of the matter is your enthusiasm is far greater than your skills.


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## swfblade (Apr 24, 2007)

None taken. I dont take offence from people who have never met me and assume that my driving style is "stupid".

Guess my advanced driver training, skid pan and track training was all a waste of time. Please can you show me how to drive, as I clearly have been doing it wrong for the past 12+ years?

Thanks Stig.


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## Fred (Jan 7, 2010)

The only time you will get understeer is when your trying to corner faster than the limit of grip. Sunny day, ice, it doesnt matter.

If you cant feel this grip or understand what will affect it, then you lack skill, its that simple.


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## swfblade (Apr 24, 2007)

Which is kinda the point no? The TT understeers too much because it hasn't got enough front end grip?


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## Fred (Jan 7, 2010)

Pretty much all cars understeer. My old RWD 325i understeered at times.

My point is there is no way you would ever see this on the road unless your doing something wrong.

Yes the TT has a tendancy to understeer, but you can drive VERY fast and not experiance this. There is no need to go changing suspension etc etc etc

People are too soon to blame the car for their inexperiance or lack of understanding when it comes to basic car dynamics.

The TT is not the best handling car in the world, but its also far from the worst. You can really hustle one of these on a country lane and cover ground at a serious pace and if done with a bit of thought/feel you wont have any understeer.


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## Hosken Racing (Sep 8, 2005)

The TT is set up, as standard, like most cars to understeer. The main reason for this is that it is easier for most drivers to correct understeer in most road driving conditions. 
When most people talk about a car that understeers, they are talking about the balance of grip between the front and rear. So it doesn't matter how much grip you have, we are talking about the balance. For example if you go into a corner and the front end slides before the rear then the car under steers. If the car goes into the same corner and the rear end loses grip first then the car over steers. If the same car goes into the same corner and loses the front and rear grip at the same time then the car is in 'perfect' balance.
Ok a classic example of a manufacturers set up is on the new Porsche 997 GT3RS Gen II. The car has 0.8 deg negative camber on the front and 1.2 deg negative camber on the rear. If an old granny gets in the car and goes to fast into a bend she will push the front and all she needs to do is lift off and the front will eventually grip. If the car was set to balance with oversteer, the same granny would go into the corner too fast, the rear would start to slide, she would probably lift, which would make the car spin. When we set up the smae car for a non granny to drive on road and track, we set 2.5 degrees negative on the rear and 3 deg negative on the front. We also stiffen the front ARB. This transforms the car into a sharp handling tool that is slightly biased to rear (oversteer) When the back slides so long as he doesn't lift he can control the car by steering out.
With the TT, it's a bit more involved than that as it really isn't a well designed track tool. It takes a lot more parts like stiffer ARB's adjustable tie bars and top mounts and a really well developed geometry set up to make it go quick. Our TT race car took a lot of development to get it handling the way it did. To the point that in the Silverstone 24 hour it ran secound fastest in class and used less than half the tyres of the opposition!
So don't give up. It can be made into a really fast track car. On the road this translates to a really well balanced car.


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## cookie (Mar 30, 2009)

@ Steve

What setup did you have on that track car just out of curiousity?

Cheers


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## swfblade (Apr 24, 2007)

Fred said:


> Pretty much all cars understeer. My old RWD 325i understeered at times.
> 
> My point is there is no way you would ever see this on the road unless your doing something wrong.


Did you experience this on a road then?

Signed Mr Stupid.


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## Fred (Jan 7, 2010)

No, at Donnington and the Nurburgring.

You keep jokingly calling yourself Mr Stupid, but you actually concern me. I really do hope I never meet you coming the other way.

Your driving so fast on a public road that you are experiancing understeer.

This understeer is becasue you are driving beyond the limit of your skill. If you had skills, you would be driving just before the understeer.

This is irrespective of if the car naturally understeers. If your understering you are driving the car over the limit.

You sir, are dangerous.


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## Charlie (Dec 15, 2006)

Come on James and Fred play nicely boys this is getting a bit petty now.

Having met James I know he isn't stupid or anything remotely like it, in fact he is a thoroughly nice chap - Fred I haven't met you but you do seem to like to stir it up.

Why not just accept that you have differing points of view and stop trying to score "points" against each other on someone elses thread.

Big hugs :lol:

Charlie


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## Guest (Aug 20, 2010)

Well funny. I especially love it when people can wind each other up while outwardly appearing to share pretty much the same point of view... Not when I'm one of them though!

It's also quite amusing when the OP isn't really worth getting steamed up about. It's a fact that TTs are set up for neutral handling with a tendency to understeer. I like the car's road manners very much but it wouldn't be anywhere on my list if I wanted either a track day car or a car I could use everyday and enjoy on the track without any modifications. I think we all accept that with £500-£1,000's worth of mods, you can put back the oversteering tendency that Audi dialled out. Orange Haldex + mods discussed earlier should do the business.

Fred is right in many ways in that to be making fast, efficient progress on either the road or the track, we shouldn't be inducing understeer or oversteer or letting it happen. If it does, it's slower and you've lost some degree of control. It seemed like James was sort of making the same point so Lord knows how this one got personal! :lol:

I think we've all got too used to this idiotic showboating that the likes of Tiff Needell characterised and we're now hung up on whether cars understeer or oversteer after they've exceeded their limit of grip and which particular tendency is the more predictable and controllable for (a) amateur drivers and (b) professional drivers.

The last word from me: remember old Fifth Gear when they used to do shootouts on the Anglesey circuit? VB-H or Tiff used to showboat around the track for a few laps while talking to camera but then say something like "enough of this [understand tailsliding action], time to set a quick lap". I think that says all I need to know.

Doug


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## swfblade (Apr 24, 2007)

Its all good. :lol:

I was mearly trying to point out that it isn't always the fault of the stupid driver that a car understeers. I have already stated that going round a point in a road not quickly has given me understeer in the TT, where it didn't in the Corrado. In fact it was a roundabout on a normal type drive, not exuberant or anything like that. Anyone who knows me knows I dont drive like a...tit? Dangerously? cant think of a better word at the moment, too late in the day.

Its probably due to the fact my Bushes were screwed in the ARB's, but that was hardly my stupid fault that this happened.

Anyway, I fully appreciate what is said by Mr Flintstone, just bottom line trying to say that its not always the dangerous drivers fault.

James Pedanto Stupid Dangerous. (In a years time I may have the longest nickname ever....)


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## Guest (Aug 20, 2010)

If it helps defuse any controversy, I will admit that if I ever exceed the mechanical grip of my QS in any conditions and have a moment, it will have been from sheer stupidity and lack of skill on my part.

There have been times this winter where I have felt the car moving around a lot but those conditions were exceptional and the behaviour was to be expected. I also have deliberately attempted to induce a loss of grip several times to test the car's response on wet, smooth roundabouts. Under these conditions, I have been very pleased with the ridiculously composed manner the car has dealt with my stoopidity by shimmying into a little oversteer then coming back into line.

For making rapid and safe progress in a variety of real world conditions, the TT with or without a few choice mods is a great and pretty tool, as it has always been recognised to be. But we all know that, don't we? 

Doug


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## Fred (Jan 7, 2010)

Sorry swfblade, I probably went a bit out of my way to try prove my point.

People having a pop at understeer is one of my real pet hates (clearly). Deep down I'm only sticking up for the car so am technically on everybodys side.


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## Charlie (Dec 15, 2006)

Aaah everyone is friends again isn't that lovely  big hugs all round 

Charlie


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## Gone (May 5, 2009)

Way to go Charlie, Ban Ki Moon better watch his back!

If you got that gag, you're middle class. Well done.


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## Charlie (Dec 15, 2006)

badyaker said:


> Way to go Charlie, Ban Ki Moon better watch his back!
> 
> If you got that gag, you're middle class. Well done.


I is well common bruv  so had to Google it.

Charlie


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## Mondo (Feb 20, 2009)

Charlie aka the Moderator of Milton Keynes. You can misquote Daz for that one too if you like... :wink:


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## stoffi (Jul 17, 2007)

*Fred,*

rally car drivers need to use all kinds of crazy drifting techniques (inducing slip) to go quicker around otherwise impossible bends, thus your claims on how people have no skill if they are inducing understeer or whatever are not always true.

However, yes - one usually sacrifices speed when the grip is lost in a corner, but that's on the bends of a racetrack, where things are generally going at much greater speeds. Rally drivers must conquer the most challenging, narrow turns at low speeds, varying surfaces and what have you. It's all about shoving the weight around and since that's the name of the game - balance and setup is a crucial element.

So, the point is that the TT understeers and one must basically drive it like a FWD-biased car and use according techniques to get it to perform properly. It will never drive like a car which naturally oversteers (due to balance - weight distribution). Each type of car requires different driving techniques, but given that the TT is a sportscar - usually, the market segment seems to expect a neutral- to oversteered car, which the TT will never be, and it is a disappointment which a lot people simply want to remedy - myself included.

I guess people just want it to be more of a classic sportscar which will do the things that such cars can do. If you buy a Ford Focus RS then you should know that you're getting into a FWD Rally car (great car) and that you can't expect it to perform like a Toyota Supra in a drifting feat, as much as you can't expect the Supra to be able to do the things that you can do with a RS.

The TT has tons of grip, which is great. But, it's also very boring, as you can only make it shove it's weight around when it's slippery or when you're driving way too fast for public roads (which I think is your point). If you're in a RWD with just a little bit of power, then you can do a simple 180-turn at walking speeds at the flick of the throttle and with a hint of momentum. It isn't as easy with a TT.


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## faytmorgan (Dec 26, 2010)

Its funny this discussion- I am sitting here searching for understeer and audi tt and I find this (via google of course). The second year I performed rally, there was a race at Nemadgi trail (mn usa) that there was the vw team and the subarus and the old golfs etc. I used a saturn sl2 with hotbits suspension about 2k in head work hankook tires they were almost time to replace at 8/32 btw, and some other mods as well according to the g2 class. I KNOW how to drive a fwd car. I was first in class (beat the vw team btw with their new rabbit or whatever the hell that little hot hatch was). So when I say I have understeer as you call it - or as i call it tq steer, which may be going down to be improperly tought about as for terminology goes, I have understeer...

if you look up my most recent post about my test drive, I was driving it about 10/10s yes on public roads- I work in the area so I know where it is safe to do this after 3 years. To be blunt the understeer is not NEARLY as bad as some people like to make it out to be. I have a 2000 civc si with equal length half shafts, a 2 inch drop aligned properly, some potenza go19 tires, and a hopped up NA sir2 motor with a pr3 head. This car is probably going to end up being my next rally car. being stripped and the weight being distributed properly etc. This car is about 170whp and is tipping the scales at 2606 with out me in it and not being stripped yet. This car pulls all over the place when you have your foot in the throttle around a sharp turn.

What I want to know is what the heck Steve did to that race car and how much that can be applied to a street car.


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## ttsteve (Nov 1, 2007)

Charlie said:


> Doug Short said:
> 
> 
> > ttSteve seems to object to people using the word nightmare when it isn't an actual nightmare, so I would expect him to post up here in the fullness of time to criticise your use of unwarranted hyperbole, so I won't bother. :wink:
> ...


LOL, (blushes) guys, I finally made it into despatches! I dunno. I dont drive my TT THAT hard, but I've never experienced obvious understeer, just tends to go were I put, plain and simple. Changing to SuperPro poly bushes throughout is a kinda Defconish thing, so to some extent, my car should be a bit better as far as (a lack of) understeer is concerned. And with 17 inch wheels too....

Happy new year guys.


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## TTQ2K2 (Jun 25, 2009)

murkedTT said:


> .. but my wallet is about as thick as paper right now hahaha.


LOL, sounds like your wallet is a bigger nightmare than understeer.

How's school going? Almost done??

bob


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## Fictorious (Sep 15, 2009)

Front LSD = godsend for front drive vehicles, still decent steering at 250bhp.


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## ttsteve (Nov 1, 2007)

Just a few random points. Don't forget, any form of under or oversteer means that tyres are actually losing grip, you're going sideways to some degree. I reckon people often kid themselves that they drive faster than they actually do, and like to get 'involved' with all this speedy talk, when really, like me, they're just everyday drivers. If you aint skidding a tad then your car is planted and there is no O or Usteer going on. Guys on here must be driving like maniacs to achieve the claimed amounts of understeer that "make the TT so bad at handling". Last summer, having achieved a decent state of mods, I started to gradually up the anti, feeling my way day by day as I did. TBH, I was going round (country road) bends pretty damned quick (70+), and I experienced no obvious bad steering traits. Saying that, my mods put my car slightly on the neutral side of understeer. So, yes, it should in theory be fairly neutral, and that's how I want it. If the TT is as bad at handling as many people say it is, then TBH they're driving the wrong car for them, or, they are simply exaggerating the situation FOR THE NEEDS OF MOST PEOPLE. Also, inducing oversteer to 'correct' understeer, is merely introducing a lack of grip at the rear. The best way to tweak any form of steering anomaly is directly. IOW, to reduce understeer, do just that, reduce the understeer; dont introduce oversteer to 'compensate'. You'll be creating a drifting machine.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

Under or over steer is just the tendency not to follow the steering line exactly - It doesn't have to be a dramatic slide. I was driving my girlfriends Civic this morning and it was easy to understeer in bends even at low speeds, although at no point was it sliding or out of control... It just goes wider in corners than it should for the amount of steering input.

If people on here have never noticed their TT understeering then the only thing I can think of is that you don't know what understeer feels like. Like most FWD cars, the TT will push wide in corners and you don't need to be absolutely hammering it to feel it. It will happen to some degree most of the time.

Personally, I don't want a car that has no over or under steer, as these are the things that make driving interesting and fun. Driving with no slip at all might be the quickest way to do it, but it'll be dull and no one is timing your run to the shops.


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## denimblue225turbo (Aug 28, 2009)

Turn esp off and oversteer everywhere, its the only way, especially in the wet when you can get it sideways easily and carry a nice slide  

Is it me or do some make every post an extremely boring, long winded load of over opinionated apparent fact :roll:


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## TTCool (Feb 7, 2005)

As this thread is basically a complaint by the OP about the handling of the TT, especially with regard to under steer, please let me make a comparison. On any Formula 1 start grid, or any start grid for that matter, there are probably quite a few drivers with the ability to be world champion or winners of any particular race. The main difference is in the car itself. It seems that most racing drivers complain about the same things. You have to have a competitive car to start with. No amount of talent will overcome a badly handling car if you want to be the quickest. It follows therefore that it is preferable to have the 'right' car, and to have it set up for that particular driver IMO. Changes to the original specification must understandably be allowed.

A good start is to learn to drive and then learn to drive a car which is well set up. Personally, I tended to deal with anything my TT threw at me, good, bad or indifferent. However, that in itself did not necessary make me the quickest driver, since I could be constrained by a bad setup. Changes were made.

The handling of the TT has been unnecessarily maligned from the start IMO. Nevertheless, I have made changes to my TT which suit me and have greatly enhanced my driving experience. I'm not saying that the TT is a bad handler out of the box just simply that any car can be made to handle as the driver would like.

If the OP is not happy with the handling of his TT, there is only one way to rectify this&#8230;make the changes. There are a multitude of sites on the internet dealing with handling and how to dial out/in personal preferences both for road and track.

Feedback from members who have made the changes would seem to be, on the face of it, the best approach but believe me; help offered is not always understood or appreciated.

I've made the assumption that the OP is interested in driving quickly and safely according to driving conditions and locality; a time and place...and all that.

Joe


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2011)

An aside on TT handling: the A1 dual carriageway section on my commute was deserted when I was coming back from night shift on new year's day (quite spooky) so I had a little play weaving the QS in and out of the cats' eyes. When you throw it around a bit, you realise how good a car it is. The directional changes were very fluid and body roll was almost undetectable which is quite a wierd sensation.

Someone recently used the phrase in another thread "handles like something out of the movie Tron". I know what he means.

Doug


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## kal225 (May 31, 2010)

Where is the best place to get r32 arbs?? Really want them on and what price am I looking at including labour??

Cheers 
Kal


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## Hark (Aug 23, 2007)

kal225 said:


> Where is the best place to get r32 arbs?? Really want them on and what price am I looking at including labour??
> 
> Cheers
> Kal


I'm still not convinced R32 arbs are the best mod. They don't remove understeer. They reduce bodyroll.

If you want to help remove understeer fit a slightly thicker rear arb. I went for the bar from the golf 4motion, it's alot cheaper as well, and I felt it made a noticeable difference.


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## Grahamstt (Jul 22, 2008)

Try the superpro alignment bushes on the front wishbones, these will give you a sharper turn in. As Hark says you can save money and fit a 4motion rear arb for better turn in as well so the effect of both mods should be   
The R32 arbs will give a firmer "feel" to the suspension as well as reducing roll - although you are changing them both the increase is biased towards the rear. :wink:


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## kal225 (May 31, 2010)

Thanks for the advice guys much appreciated  where can I get the bushes from?

Many thanks


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## Grahamstt (Jul 22, 2008)

Take your pick :wink: 
http://www.superpro.eu.com/Stockists/St ... ountryID=1
You'll see Awesome on there but I got mine from QR Sport in Tattenhall near Chester
Depends which part of the world you're in   
[smiley=cheers.gif] 
Graham


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## sdminus (Jan 2, 2011)

hello.

From my point of view the handleing of the tt is very much as a 4wd car should be. ie it would suffer from understeer.
understeer and chassis problems need to be broken into more detail. an understeer doesnt tell much nor does over steer.

i would say from my own experiance with a 225 tt that it suffers from corner exit understeer. ie the car plows past the apex of the corner when loaded for a long duration. weaving about in the middle of the road wont highlight this problem as the short duration of the turn wont high light the problem and is dangerous.

solve this problem by controling your apex speed. analylise what you are doing. so lets say you approach the turn on the brakes. you turn in . as you trun in you reduce the braking level to compensate for the turning grip required. the steering angle should now be at the correct angle ie you shouldnt be adding or subtracting angle and you are pointing at the apex of the bend. before you reach apex you should be able to apply throttle and start to reduce the steering angle to meet you exit kerb or target .

the basic numbers from the standard tt indicate that the car has a rear ward aero balance so this will make the car have an understeer balance.

play with tire pressures and alter your driving style.

scott


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## stoffi (Jul 17, 2007)

Actually, a 4WD vehicle doesn't need to be understeered. It all depends on the vehicle itself and how you drive through corners, which you speak of. However, the TT is heavily understeered. It's designed to be that way for safety reasons. However, any car can understeer. Even a RWD-car can understeer as well as any FWD-car can oversteer (including the TT). So, it's correct to speak of driving techniques, but in the case of the TT, it's just set up to be an understeered vehicle and I believe that there's nothing one can do to make it handle otherwise - just less of it. One would need to do a complete rebuild, placing the gearbox further back, along with the engine, because the TT is nose-heavy beyond the front wheel axis. Yes, one can force oversteer with a Haldex upgrade or even with the handbrake, but that's not what I'm talking about. I mean balance and weight-distribution.

Changing to a thicker ARB on the rear will reduce it, but you'll move toward the tendency of an unbalanced car at high speeds on the straight. There is nothing wrong with an understeered vehicle, quite the contrary - which is why it's usually so boring to drive. Tightening up the turn in with bushes has nothing to do with the understeer itself. Getting better bushes, springs and shocks will only make the car handle better (i.e. stiffen things up), but the understeer is still there. You'll just experience it much later while pushing more Gs.

There are small fixes here and there to make it understeer less, but in the end it will never be as fun to drive as let's say a Subaru, Cayenne or even a Jaguar 3.0 X-Type.

I believe many people in this thread are reading this issue as if people are having a "problem" with understeer, whereas I see it as if people just find it boring and are looking for ways to remedy it. At least, that's how I see it, as the TT handles extremely well, but it is a bit uninspiring to drive on dry roads. In the wet or on snow, on the other hand, it is very fun! As I understand it, the legendary UR-Quattro was an understeer-biased car as well, so that should say enough about that. But let's face it, what car isn't fun to drive in slippery conditions?

Some have the view that when people are experiencing understeer or just grip-slip in general, it means that they are doing something wrong and that they are dangerous. Wtf?! I can achieve grip slip below the speed limit because I want to and because it's fun. I'd say that if you can't do that, then it should be an indicator that you don't know how to operate your vehicle better than your average driver. If you haven't pushed your car hard enough (obviously in a safe environment), then how could you possibly know what it can and cannot do?


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## tony_rigby_uk (Nov 27, 2008)

I must admit, i've thrown everything at my car... and understeer was never a issue with my mods!!!!!

That was until last night...and it was serious almost to the point i binned the car.. my arse cheaks firmly puckered up,  and the only resolve was to drop the clutch (increasing the understeer by disengaging the haldex) and putting the car in second, flooring it and allowing it to spin round on me (thank you blue haldex !!!). avoiding the kerb and the lampost but facing the wrong way... I will mention i was being a muppet and entry to the corner was much faster than usual, my ESP had failed (G419 fault) and the car has developed a knock.. (hense driving like a muppet as was pissed off with it!!!!) not to mention the sub zero temps...!!!

My view is i hit some black ice.. as i really did nearly completely miss the corner  Have to say i was a little dissapointed... glad i didn't hit the brakes.. (as i'm sure we all know that would have made it worse)

Usually my car is spot on and on the stelvio pass it was brilliant.. syd has the vid of me trying to induce understeer and oversteer..

Now rather than abusing the car i really need to start looking at what is wrong with it.. something isn't right as the knocking is becoming louder.. and if it's another set of AP coilovers gone faulty i'll be killing someone !!!!

I think understeer is one of those things.. if you brake going round a corner you cut power to the rears meaning the fronts have all power and your more likely to understeer.. if you brake first and use the throttle round the corner the car cannot understeer because as soon as traction is being lost at the front it puts power to the rear and will cause oversteer... (a lesser extreame than the oversteer i caused myself to avoid binning the TT)

REMEBER BRAKE PEDAL AND CLUTCH PEDAL DISENGAGE ALL DRIVE TO THE REAR WHEELS AND IN EFFECT YOUR IN A FRONT WHEEL DRIVE CAR THEN... (and what does front wheel drive suffer from...... UNDERSTEER) KEEP AWAY FROM BRAKE AND CLUTCH AND YOUR IN A 4 WHEEL DRIVE CAR (Weighted to the rear under traction slip "Quottro") (and what is rear wheel good for... OVER STEER)


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