# Recommended mods to improve handling



## TheVarix (Apr 3, 2013)

Hi,
I've owned my APX 225 Coupe since last April. 
I enjoy driving it and I don't think the handling is as bad as a lot of people say. 
Having said that I can't help but think that I really enjoyed driving my previous car a lot more. My previous car was a small Ford Puma 1.7. It had only 125 bhp but the handling was really superb. You could flick it about, had a very responsive steering with lots of feedback, etc... It was fun, like driving a go kart! I tell you this, I could give a standard TT a run for its money on a bendy road although on a straight line the poor Puma would be just a small dot in the TT's rear view mirror... 
I am trying to get that feeling and smile back with some mods. 
I've remapped to 260 bhp and am in the process now of fitting cookbots and poly bushes in the front wishbones.
After that, I've been thinking about fitting R32 ARB's but that would be the limit as to how much I am willing to spend on the car.
Will I see a significant improvement in the handling with the above mentioned mods??

I am going through a mid-ownership crisis I guess... but I am not prepared to spend a bezillion pounds modding a car to handle like others do in their standard form, I'd rather buy another car.


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## thebluemax (Oct 11, 2012)

TheVarix said:


> Hi,
> I've owned my APX 225 Coupe since last April.
> I enjoy driving it and I don't think the handling is as bad as a lot of people say.
> Having said that I can't help but think that I really enjoyed driving my previous car a lot more. My previous car was a small Ford Puma 1.7. It had only 125 bhp but the handling was really superb. You could flick it about, had a very responsive steering with lots of feedback, etc... It was fun, like driving a go kart! I tell you this, I could give a standard TT a run for its money on a bendy road although on a straight line the poor Puma would be just a small dot in the TT's rear view mirror...
> ...


fitting the 'defcon' type bushes in the wishbones are supposed to transform the handling they all say, sharper and more like the origional handling characteristics . I will be upgrading these next year on my car so any feedback would be great.


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## The Blue Bandit (Sep 22, 2011)

... all of the mods you mentioned will improve the handling- but you haven't mentioned whether you're still running the original springs/shocks? ... to be honest a good lowered spring/shock combo or coilovers will obviously give the most radical improvement in the handling stakes ... if it's an APX engined TT I'm guessing it has done a few miles and the suspension may need 'freshening up' anyway ...
... the problem you face is that (by your own admission) your heart is not really in it- these cars are between 10-15 years old now, and they're not for the faint hearted- I sort of think that if you don't really appreciate the TT for what it is (warts and all) then you're never going to get the best from it- for the money, the engines are sturdy and tuneable for not much money, and with a bit of cash spent they can handle much better than they left the factory- but really, you _have to want to do it _...


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## mullum (Sep 16, 2011)

Superpro Caster correction wishbone bushes (rear bush) - buy from cookbots site ;-)


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## TTSPORT666 (Dec 1, 2011)

As Steve rightly said. You have to be committed.
Defcons and H&R adjustable ARB's. The R32's are ok just not as effective as H&R, set front bar to first softest setting the rear bar to stiff, and with the defcons fitted the car is transformed. These 2 mods got me started. I could not have kept my qs in standard form, with its hopeless on the limit understeer, and lifeless steering.  
Once that was done to my qs i never looked back. A lower centre of gravity helps also. And don't underestimate a decent alignment, can really enhance the feel of a chassis.
I understand what you mean about the Puma and how it gave you more feedback. My modified alfa Gt clover with chassis mods was awesome to drive, so much steering feedback..made my qs feel pretty stale and average when i drove it home from the audi forecourt.  Anyhow i hope you make the right decision bud.

Damien.


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## TheVarix (Apr 3, 2013)

Hi blue bandit and Damien,
Thanks for your comments.
The car is right now on 86k miles. Yes, no denial about the sturdiness. They're well engineered machines an the built quality is far superior to more mainstream, mass produced cars.
The car is on standard suspension with 3 new OEM springs replaced under the warranty I got when I bought the car. I think I'll stick to OEM parts for the suspension as they are covered under my warranty. 
Damien, I'll look into the ARB's you mentioned... Interesting! 
Don't get me wrong, I like my car but I am also sensible with how I spend my money, although you could say the opposite for buying a TT...  I love cars and driving but I have other priorities like saving up for a deposit of a house, etc...it's not a question about heart, it's a question about willingness to spend a small fortune on mods for a car that is as you said 13 years old.
If the mods I've mentioned improve the handling I will keep the car until it snuffs it but I don't want to spend a small fortune, that's all


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## TheVarix (Apr 3, 2013)

Hi mullum, 
After much deliberation I think I am even more indecisive about that...
No one has come forward yet regarding the possible benefits/pros of the superpro's over the whiteline's


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## The Blue Bandit (Sep 22, 2011)

... I totally understand- it always comes down to where you draw the line, the sky is always the limit with anything when it comes to these cars, whatever you replace or upgrade, there is always a more expensive or better specced or more adjustable version out there for just a bit more money ...
... stick with the mods you mentioned- they're tried and tested and should give you noticable improvements- and then if you still want more and find the love for the old girl all over again, you can still swap to post-facelift springs or even an aftermarket set like the Apex ones and a decent 4 wheel alignment for even better handling still ...

Steve


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## mullum (Sep 16, 2011)

Because very few people on here have fitted them. I think a lot of people discover them after they've already done their wishbone bushes.

Actually scratch that. Not a lot of people know about them, and of those that do - only a few discovered them before they did their wishbone bushes. Hence so few have them fitted.


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## TTSPORT666 (Dec 1, 2011)

TheVarix said:


> Hi blue bandit and Damien,
> Thanks for your comments.
> The car is right now on 86k miles. Yes, no denial about the sturdiness. They're well engineered machines an the built quality is far superior to more mainstream, mass produced cars.
> The car is on standard suspension with 3 new OEM springs replaced under the warranty I got when I bought the car. I think I'll stick to OEM parts for the suspension as they are covered under my warranty.
> ...


Hey fella. I respect your sensible state of mind. As far as suspension is concerned. My qs on standard shocks and suspension with the defcons and H&R's handled fantastic on road. Was a fantastic compromise. Honestly the coilovers are nice but had no where as much effect on handling as the bars and defcons. Yes they gave me the stance i was after, but i feel coilovers are pretty over rated to be fair. I opted for damper rate adjustment with my b16's. So i have oem ride quality and comfort on my softer settings. If the oem qs shocks and springs would have been to the height i desired, i would have been happy to stick with them and save a heap of cash. :wink:

Damien.


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

if you are strapped for cash then go new polly and set of used R32 arb s..that alone will put a smile back on yer face.


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## A8VCG (May 9, 2011)

Without sounding controversial - from what you've said I'd recommend the following:

Forget defcons and update the wishbones with something like SuperPro (I have a pair of 45mm bushes if you decide this is for you)

Replace the Rear ARB with something a bit tasty - from time time to you see them come up second hand: Neuspeed / Eibach

Definitely do the suspension over anything if it has not already been replaced.

These are simple mods and the first three things I would of done had I not done everything at the same time.


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## TTSPORT666 (Dec 1, 2011)

Cuprabhoy said:


> Without sounding controversial - from what you've said I'd recommend the following:
> 
> Forget defcons and update the wishbones with something like SuperPro (I have a pair of 45mm bushes if you decide this is for you)
> 
> ...


Forget defcons????? [smiley=bigcry.gif] No way they are a big part of the equation to chassis greatness. R32 bars are halfway house to happiness..H&R ARB kit balance the car out front to rear with adjustability, and dials out the under steer.

Damien.


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

i accept that the H & R are better arb s , but i believe they are also considerablly more expensive [smiley=bigcry.gif] ,, also Defcons are not cheap either


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## TheVarix (Apr 3, 2013)

It's really encouraging to hear from others who have the mods I'm going to try and see that it's going to work!
I see in the forum the amazing work and mods some members are doing and I feel nothing but admiration for their skills and love for their cars but I have to be more pragmatic and realistic as to what (or how much) I can do. 
Thanks all again for your suggestions and encouragement!
And mullum, I'll try to contact both whiteline and superpro if possible and see what they say about their own products, hopefully that will help me decide...you might In the end not be the only one in the village with the whiteline's anymore...


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## mullum (Sep 16, 2011)

Duggy (John) has got the Whitelines too.
Cookbots are £65 I think ?


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## TheVarix (Apr 3, 2013)

Thanks cupraboy and roddy!
I already have the cookbots with superpro bushes fitted. 
I am waiting for a set of powder coated R32 wishbones and am also getting new ball joints since I am replacing everything else...
I am still in the process of deciding what sort of bush to put on the rear. Whiteline caster correction or superpro caster correction (I have posted a thread a few days ago regarding this)
Regarding arb's I'm inclined to follow cupraboy's recommendation and see if I can get hold of a good pair of second hand ones with new bushes...
I am in no rush to do these mods and am patient enough to wait for a good deal either on eBay or other places like in the for sale section here.


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## TheVarix (Apr 3, 2013)

Hi again mullum,
No, I am fairly sure they're £85.


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## Duggy (May 17, 2005)

Yes, I have the castor adjustable bushes, however, I cannot give a realistic opinion as they were fitted at the same time as Apex -40 springs, Spax adjustable dampers, Defcons, poly bushes, a 4 motion rear arb and a laser 4 wheel alignment

The above combination gave a nicely balanced chassis with seriously improved turn in 

The 4 motion rear arb may be an option for you, as you don't need to change the front

One question I would ask you is what tyres are you running, as running on cheaper tyres does nothing for the handling in my opinion, changed recently to Goodyear Asymmetric 2's and it was the difference betwwen night and day!

John


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## Danny1 (Sep 2, 2010)

My opinion is,

With the sheer amount of comfort and luxury the TT provides, it will never be a car you "flick" around, it weighs 400+kg's more than the puma and the TT is much more of a GT style drive imo. Any hot hatch will run rings round a TT in the "fun" handling stakes, same as with a EVO/impreza, they are designed to be thrown about in the bends. If its that style handling your after then I would personally consider a change of car, or just enjoy the comfort, ride quality and looks of the TT and save your money.


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## TTSPORT666 (Dec 1, 2011)

Danny1 said:


> My opinion is,
> 
> With the sheer amount of comfort and luxury the TT provides, it will never be a car you "flick" around, it weighs 400+kg's more than the puma and the TT is much more of a GT style drive imo. Any hot hatch will run rings round a TT in the "fun" handling stakes, same as with a EVO/impreza, they are designed to be thrown about in the bends. If its that style handling your after then I would personally consider a change of car, or just enjoy the comfort, ride quality and looks of the TT and save your money.


Hmm not sure i agree with that Danny.. :? Any hot hatch will run rings round a TT?? That's a pretty large generalisation. We talking about a totally standard car then?
I can flick my qs around, and in the fun handling stakes my modded chassis really gives a lot back to the driver and big smiles.  I have had my share and experience of tuning fun hot hatch chassis cars in the past, so i am not talking blind here. Out of the box the mk1 TT is pretty hopeless..but once money is spent in the right areas, can be made into something very engaging to drive. I wouldn't call my qs a car with sheer amounts of comfort and luxury either..  :wink:

Damien.


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## Danny1 (Sep 2, 2010)

TTSPORT666 said:


> Danny1 said:
> 
> 
> > My opinion is,
> ...


Yes it is a general view on standard v standard, I get that with the thousands of £'s you have spent it is a massive improvement and im sure yours goes very well, but the fact is if you spent the same on upgrading a hot hatch/evo/impreza chassis you would still have cars with much more "fun" handling. You cant even hold a drift or powerslide in a TT for eg...... This point is proven when you look at what cars are picked for trackday cars, 1 in a million people choose a mk1 TT  and the biggest reason, handling.


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## TheVarix (Apr 3, 2013)

Hi Danny1,

 I am not driving around like Carlos Sainz when he won the 1000 Lakes Rally but every now and then if it's safe to do so, I like to have a bit of a "spirited" drive...  I am not trying to build a track day car, my TT is my daily runner. What I am after is a good compromise between that fun factor I mentioned in my 1st post and the solidity, luxury, relative comfort and sleek design the Audi offers (if that makes sense)

After seeing the replies from people with the mods I intend to do, I am looking forward to see how it goes once I manage to get it all done and hopefully get that compromise in the handling that I referred to previously.


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## t'mill (Jul 31, 2012)

Just to jump on here a mo if the op doesn't mind. I've done a lot of suspension work this year to include:

New OEM dampers. 
Amax springs. 
OEM top mounts. 
Cookbots with Superpros. 
Heavy duty rear front wishbone bushes. 
Poly bushes on front standard ARB. 
Poly bushes on rear 4motion ARB. 
New OEM front ball joints. 
New OEM front & rear drop links. 
New OEM rear wishbone inner bushes. 
New OEM rear wishbone front bushes.

Now with all that fitted, the steering still feels dull and slow to turn in. So my question is, what would I need to do to 'sharpen' up the steering and give a quicker turn in?


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

get rid of all that OEM stuff !!


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## t'mill (Jul 31, 2012)

Haha! I didn't want to go to hard a crashy ride, hence the mixture of oem and uprated. I would've thought the steering would have had more of a positive feel to it after my changes, but alas, no. Would a thicker front ARB give a quicker feel to the turn in?


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

if you use well proven and quality stuff then you will not get a crashy ride,,, but it will be firm


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## t'mill (Jul 31, 2012)

Aye I hear you. All I want now though his a sharper/quicker steering response. I'm more than happy with the ride quality, stance and handling of my set up, but the steering lets it down I feel.


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

t'mill said:


> Aye I hear you. All I want now though his a sharper/quicker steering response. I'm more than happy with the ride quality, stance and handling of my set up, but the steering lets it down I feel.


OK,, if it has to be one single thing I think Defcons or much cheaper alt of Cockboots... but maybe your rear arb is fkng up the turn in,, the arbs have to be matched and just to fit one without the other is , if not already proven, then a bit of hit or miss


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## mullum (Sep 16, 2011)

t'mill said:


> I would've thought the steering would have had more of a positive feel to it after my changes, but alas, no. Would a thicker front ARB give a quicker feel to the turn in?


I have to admit I barely noticed the difference when I changed to cookbots, caster correction bushes etc. At the same time, you might remember, I had new lowering springs fitted and new matching shorter shocks. But after I had an R32 *REAR* arb fitted (keeping the standard front ARB), suddenly it all came together.

Originally the plan was to fit a front one too - but I was let down (to say the least) by the seller. I know the common consensus is that if you're just changing the rear ARB you should go for the marginally thicker 4motion (as you did). But at the moment I'm happy with the way it is. When Garth did the same, however, he found that at high speed his car became twitchy. I've not noticed anything like that yet though.
Anyway it could just be that the rear ARB alone made all the difference. Hard to say. It could just be that I don't have the heightened perception of someone who has been driving many years and knows their car's handling to a "T" when it's pushed.

Perhaps in the future, if I have any other jobs done that would knock the tracking out- I might have a front R32 ARB fitted as well (seeing as I'd need a realignment anyway). 
Some people have reported that fitting a poly bush to the steering rack (and possibly the steering arm to rack bush) improved the feel.

Unfortunately though, every time you make a modification you actually run the risk of introducing NEW issues that you never had in the first place. It seems as though fitting many of these mods is something of an art and requires a lot of car specific experience. How and when things are tightened, where poly is better than rubber and vice-versa, plus other such arcane knowledge - can make all the difference.


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## t'mill (Jul 31, 2012)

Thanks for the input Mull and Rodders. I've seen those steering rack bushes on eBay and they're only £12. Not sure how much of a faff they are to fit mind. I wonder if an R32 front bar would sharpen up the steering.


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## mullum (Sep 16, 2011)

Apparently it's all about the relationship between the thickness of the front and the rear arb. The front should be thicker than the rear, but mine are equal - which is meant to cause oversteer. But I've not noticed any, perhaps because I don't throw it about enough.

R32 front may be a tad too thick as a match for the rear 4motion. Maybe you just need a thicker rear ARB like I have, but maybe not quite as thick as an R32 - or perhaps an adjustable one (H&R, Whiteline) ?


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## t'mill (Jul 31, 2012)

I'd be tempted to try a front R32 as it _may_ be a good match for the slightly thicker rear 4Motion.

So your steering sharpened just with a rear R32?


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## mullum (Sep 16, 2011)

Well, I'd say the *handling* sharpened up. I'd done all the other stuff before fitting the rear ARB - but it wasnt until after the rear ARB that suddenly it felt more like a go kart. 
I do think it could be improved further, however.
I've been tempted by anything which will transmit more feedback through the steering - poly top mounts etc - but don't want any more squeaks or creaks than I've got already ! (which I THINK is my top mounts which are NEW and my poly INNER tie bar bushes).


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## cookbot (Apr 19, 2011)

t'mill said:


> Thanks for the input Mull and Rodders. I've seen those steering rack bushes on eBay and they're only £12. Not sure how much of a faff they are to fit mind. I wonder if an R32 front bar would sharpen up the steering.


Done it and it's a pain. Only worth doing if you're doing the ARB at the same time as you have to lower the subframe. I've got a super pro one spare here I think. Let me know if you need it.

Also have you looked at how much slack is in the steering rack? that will make it feel sloppy and you can alter the preload to tighten it back up.


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## t'mill (Jul 31, 2012)

cookbot said:


> have you looked at how much slack is in the steering rack? that will make it feel sloppy and you can alter the preload to tighten it back up.


Funny you should mention this, I'm sure I can detect a bit of play in the rack, especially on an uneven surface such a cobbles for instance. Is it a big job to tighten it up?

Will that poly bush you got fit a 2001 BAM TT?


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## mullum (Sep 16, 2011)

Might be an idea to PM cookbot instead.

I hope you get your car to feel the way you'd like it to feel. Its a shame FK don't have any of their adjustable shocks available for the TT (the "*Power* High Tech" ones). It'd be nice to be able to dial in the firmness you like.


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## Shinigami (Feb 21, 2013)

mmmmmmm I have Eibach 22mm ARB front and R32 ARB rear, lowered 40-50mm on AP coilovers and spaced 15mm all around but I feel the handling is still poor (as standard it was shocking at least) maybe in the future I should try these cookbot as well then :roll:


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## corradoman (Sep 11, 2010)

ive just spent all morning changing the wishbone bushes and ball joints on my mates A3 quattro sport 52 plate which is basically an s3 from what i can gather without the wider arches and 180 bhp engine he wanted to go cookbots but was told he didnt need the as the wishbones were the older version which the were, so why doesnt everybody just use these wishbones to get the original feel of the TT :? Anyhow after we had ditched the old void bushes and used the solid type bushes and then put everything back together we took it for a very spirited drive in the wet, and i couldn`t help noticing how much better this car handles than the TT :? WHY, its only got H%R springs and standard roll bars with 150 k on the clock maybe the wishbones hold the clue...


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## mullum (Sep 16, 2011)

corradoman said:


> ive just spent all morning changing the wishbone bushes and ball joints on my mates A3 quattro sport 52 plate which is basically an s3 from what i can gather without the wider arches and 180 bhp engine he wanted to go cookbots but was told he didnt need the as the wishbones were the older version which the were, so why doesnt everybody just use these wishbones to get the original feel of the TT :? Anyhow after we had ditched the old void bushes and used the solid type bushes and then put everything back together we took it for a very spirited drive in the wet, and i couldn`t help noticing how much better this car handles than the TT :? WHY, its only got H%R springs and standard roll bars with 150 k on the clock maybe the wishbones hold the clue...


Aren't those early wishbones as rare as hens teeth ? I know the pre-recall TT ones are ..


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## Shinigami (Feb 21, 2013)

The R32 front is 23mm :wink:


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## mullum (Sep 16, 2011)

Shinigami said:


> The R32 front is 23mm :wink:


In that case your combination sounds perfect ;-)
22mm front 19mm rear .. 
Cookbots (front bushes) and caster correction (rear bushes) are a good combo.
Some people are afraid of poly down there in case there's too much feedback - but I'd like as much as I can get. I'd probably put Superpro "black" race bushes in the cookbots if I did it again. I don't know how the Superpro caster bushes compare against the Whiteline ones I have, but I'd give them a go.


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## corradoman (Sep 11, 2010)

mullum said:


> corradoman said:
> 
> 
> > ive just spent all morning changing the wishbone bushes and ball joints on my mates A3 quattro sport 52 plate which is basically an s3 from what i can gather without the wider arches and 180 bhp engine he wanted to go cookbots but was told he didnt need the as the wishbones were the older version which the were, so why doesnt everybody just use these wishbones to get the original feel of the TT :? Anyhow after we had ditched the old void bushes and used the solid type bushes and then put everything back together we took it for a very spirited drive in the wet, and i couldn`t help noticing how much better this car handles than the TT :? WHY, its only got H%R springs and standard roll bars with 150 k on the clock maybe the wishbones hold the clue...
> ...


yes they are, but whats confused me is that its an 02 car and you would think it would have the later wishbones :? lots have said that they long to find early wishbones but they are still apparently available for the A3 Quattro so why not just buy these for the TT


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## mullum (Sep 16, 2011)

Good question, get on the A3 forum and corner the market ! :-D


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## mullum (Sep 16, 2011)

Shinigami said:


> I have Eibach 22mm ARB front ..


Just a shame those are a bit pricey. Not easy to come across second hand either.


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## Shinigami (Feb 21, 2013)

mullum said:


> Shinigami said:
> 
> 
> > I have Eibach 22mm ARB front ..
> ...


I was lucky enough to get a second one in pristine conditions for about £90 posted :roll:


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## corradoman (Sep 11, 2010)

mullum said:


> Good question, get on the A3 forum and corner the market ! :-D


when everyone is fitting the A3 quattro wishbones you can all say its come from me :lol: and i will call them corradomanbones :lol: im selling a set now if anyone wants them? These wishbones use the smaller bush so eliminates all understeer and creates much better handling


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## Shinigami (Feb 21, 2013)

corradoman said:


> mullum said:
> 
> 
> > Good question, get on the A3 forum and corner the market ! :-D
> ...


I bet it costs more to have them fitted than the parts themselves :roll:


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## corradoman (Sep 11, 2010)

Shinigami said:


> corradoman said:
> 
> 
> > mullum said:
> ...


Why? i fitted the bushes for nothing


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## Shinigami (Feb 21, 2013)

I bet it costs more to have them fitted than the parts themselves :roll:[/quote]
Why? i fitted the bushes for nothing[/quote]

I was thinking about those like myself who relies on garages to do every single job :roll:


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## corradoman (Sep 11, 2010)

Shinigami said:


> I bet it costs more to have them fitted than the parts themselves :roll:


Why? i fitted the bushes for nothing[/quote]

I was thinking about those like myself who relies on garages to do every single job :roll:[/quote]

any garage that charges more than £20 to fit bushes in these wishbones is totally ripping people off, obviously you have to drop the wishbones yourself which is not hard!


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## mullum (Sep 16, 2011)

Although you need an alignment after removing the wishbones. The results are worth it though, well - once you've done your arbs too. If you do your wishbones you might as well do your front arb as that knocks the tracking out as well ..


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## corradoman (Sep 11, 2010)

mullum said:


> Although you need an alignment after removing the wishbones. The results are worth it though, well - once you've done your arbs too. If you do your wishbones you might as well do your front arb as that knocks the tracking out as well ..


if you dont need to replace your ball joints and just replace the bushes then your alignment shouldnt be out surely


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## cookbot (Apr 19, 2011)

t'mill said:


> cookbot said:
> 
> 
> > have you looked at how much slack is in the steering rack? that will make it feel sloppy and you can alter the preload to tighten it back up.
> ...


Yea, the power steering rack bush fits all the TT's regardless if it's an APX or BAM. The rack isn't hard to tighten up at all, there's a black circular part with what looks like a nut in the middle. Just tighten that an 1/8th at a time and check it isn't binding after. If it binds, but take it back a little and you're done.


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## mullum (Sep 16, 2011)

mullum said:


> Although you need an alignment after *removing the wishbones*.





corradoman said:


> if you dont need to replace your ball joints and just replace the bushes then your alignment shouldnt be out surely


It's *possible* to fit the bushes in-situ yes.


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## corradoman (Sep 11, 2010)

mullum said:


> corradoman said:
> 
> 
> > mullum said:
> ...


If you drop the wishbone from the hub with the ball joint still attached to the wishbone and then pull the wishbone from the subframe, replace the bushes then re install then the geometry should be the same as the adjustment is from the balljoint


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## mullum (Sep 16, 2011)

Ahh got ya. My ball joints were replaced old for new as i didn't want to pass up the opportunity.


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## TheVarix (Apr 3, 2013)

I am not sure about going only with a rear 4 motion arb. I'll probably wait until I can get hold of a set of R32's. I have read on Wak's site about the improvement in handling with R32's so I'm going to wait...


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