# Room for another TTOC? Votes open to all!



## rustyintegrale

*Is there room for an alternative TT Club?*​
No4973.13%Yes811.94%I want to take part in something more exciting and involving1014.93%


----------



## rustyintegrale

Hi guys,

Just thought I'd post the question...

We're all TT fans and we all spend a long time on here.

How do you feel about the TTOC?

Are you happy?

Does it fulfil your expectations?

Does your membership provide value for money?

Do you feel neglected?

Please take part in the poll and PM me if you have any suggestions for a club that meets your needs...


----------



## jampott

Why don't you tell us what you'd do differently. Or how the existing TTOC can improve?


----------



## Rhod_TT

The main thing about the TTOC is that it's run entirely by volenteers which means organising meets, newsletters and so on will generally take a back seat when their (our) lives are busy (work, family and other commitments). Just like other people attempting to organise TTOC meets and write articles, I'd love to be able to do more but sometimes I just can't squeeze it in around finishing my PhD off.

Rather than attemt to launch another volenteer driven TT club why not offer your ideas/services to the existing TTOC. The more help we have then the more the club can be focussed on what you'd like to do. I'm sure lots of people will have positive or negative views of the TTOC but we're really trying (when we can).


----------



## rustyintegrale

jampott said:


> Why don't you tell us what you'd do differently. Or how the existing TTOC can improve?


Hi,

Well I'm not going to speak out of turn here, I want to be fair about this.

To be honest I have made suggestions to the TTOC and as my capacity as 'Club Designer' and ex-committee member I proposed and put forward a lot of ideas post Donington.

If Mark Leavy or Clive Donahue are happy to discuss these openly on here then that's fine. I'm not looking for a protracted battle about who did and who said what but i would dearly love to make the TTOC more exciting.

Did you know that this TT Forum and the TTOC are not one and the same thing for example?

Why do you suppose that might be?

As members you should ask...

cheers

rich


----------



## Rhod_TT

rustyintegrale said:


> Did you know that this TT Forum and the TTOC are not one and the same thing for example?


This is a touchy subject but I've never really understood why (in all the 5 years of the relaunched TTOC). In my mind, the TTF is a fantastic resource and great place for the discussion of all aspects of the TT. Naturally it is therefore the best place to publicise TT related events (often organised by TTOC reps) and there is no way a specific TTOC forum could ever compete due to the TTFs popularity. The TTOC have a reasonsably large presence here but they don't run the site and never w/could. The TTF is also free for everyone to use whereas the TTOC isn't (requiring funds to produce magazines and organise the national event etc.)

But on the theme of meets, as a TTOC rep organising an event, the TTF is the first place I will mention anything. But there is no way I'm going to turn people away from a "free" TTOC event if they aren't members of the TTOC and found out about the event from the TTF - but that therefore takes away a main benefit of joining the TTOC i.e. one of meets with other TT owners.


----------



## rustyintegrale

Rhod_TT said:


> The main thing about the TTOC is that it's run entirely by volenteers which means organising meets, newsletters and so on will generally take a back seat when their (our) lives are busy (work, family and other commitments). Just like other people attempting to organise TTOC meets and write articles, I'd love to be able to do more but sometimes I just can't squeeze it in around finishing my PhD off.
> 
> Rather than attemt to launch another volenteer driven TT club why not offer your ideas/services to the existing TTOC. The more help we have then the more the club can be focussed on what you'd like to do. I'm sure lots of people will have positive or negative views of the TTOC but we're really trying (when we can).


I was a volunteer and yes I understand completely your comments about time etc.

So surely it would make sense to have the whole process of running a club simpler, quicker and easier?

Could be done, might be done, but would the committee agree? :lol:


----------



## rustyintegrale

C'mon guys!

It's a chance to talk openly! Tell me to fuck off if you think I'm wrong

Cheers

Rich

:lol:


----------



## Rebel

fuck off


----------



## rustyintegrale

Rebel said:


> fuck off


Your opinion is graciously noted.

Thank you.

cheers

Rich

How long have you been on here?


----------



## Rebel

rustyintegrale said:


> Rebel said:
> 
> 
> 
> fuck off
> 
> 
> 
> Your opinion is graciously noted.
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Rich
> 
> How long have you been on here?
Click to expand...

Thx, ive been her from 12 feb 2005 :wink:



rustyintegrale said:


> C'mon guys!
> 
> It's a chance to talk openly! *Tell me to fuck off if you think I'm wrong*
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Rich


----------



## rustyintegrale

Rebel said:


> Thx, ive been her from 12 feb 2005 :wink:


Well then you know as well as I that if you have nothing constructive to say then you may as well say nothing at all. 

Your opinion for the benefit of TTLand is more than welcome... 

cheers

Rich


----------



## rustyintegrale

And now can anyone but the committee please vote... 

Thanks guys...

Cheers

Rich


----------



## scoTTy

rustyintegrale said:


> Rebel said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thx, ive been her from 12 feb 2005 :wink:
> 
> 
> 
> Well then you know as well as I that if you have nothing constructive to say then you may as well say nothing at all.
> 
> Your opinion for the benefit of TTLand is more than welcome...
> 
> cheers
> 
> Rich
Click to expand...

You can't post what you did and not expect someone to make the obvious "comical" post!

To run a club, the first thing you need is a sense of humour. Secondly you'll need rules and the ability to follow them.. Since you can't keep from swearing in a non-swearing forum then it sounds like you may have a challenge.

It's obvious that putting your initial post of TTF is going to cause friction.

Have you exchausted all normal avenues of getting things how you'd like ?

If so then lay it on the table? If not then wouldn't it have been a better idea?

I'm interested in what you feel the current TTOC is lacking.

I'm not saying the TTOC is perfect. In the same way the previous TTOC wasn't perfect but I have a lot of respect for the effort that goes into them and they're a lot better than many.

The current TTOC has a lot of buy in from Audi UK.

I do hope that any avenue you go down doesn't disrupt that. This nearly happened once before. :?


----------



## Toshiba

Im not clear what you are wanting from an OC.

Do you want more events?
Should it be cheaper?
Do you want more people involved?
Do you want you're own site? (that they have)

Can i ask why you think it needs to be changed?


----------



## brittan

Haven't been a member long so probably not qualified, but:

Disappointed there's no active South West Rep.
Haven't had a magazine since the ones at joining.
There's more forum organised meets than club ones.

Donnington was my first and only club event and I enjoyed it. Yes, there were things that could have been better but you could say that after any event of that size and hindsight is always 20/20.

However - all this is done by people who volunteer their time and effort for no specific reward. They all have jobs/families/other commitments/other interests. They usually have to put up with critisism of one kind or another.
So I say well done to them all, and thank you.

The original question though was about room for another TT club. Why? Surely the best way forward, if you are unhappy with what is happening (or not) now, is to change it from the inside by becoming suitably involved or as a club official.


----------



## rustyintegrale

scoTTy said:


> You can't post what you did and not expect someone to make the obvious "comical" post!
> 
> To run a club, the first thing you need is a sense of humour. Secondly you'll need rules and the ability to follow them.. Since you can't keep from swearing in a non-swearing forum then it sounds like you may have a challenge.
> 
> It's obvious that putting your initial post of TTF is going to cause friction.
> 
> Have you exchausted all normal avenues of getting things how you'd like ?
> 
> If so then lay it on the table? If not then wouldn't it have been a better idea?
> 
> I'm interested in what you feel the current TTOC is lacking.
> 
> I'm not saying the TTOC is perfect. In the same way the previous TTOC wasn't perfect but I have a lot of respect for the effort that goes into them and they're a lot better than many.
> 
> The current TTOC has a lot of buy in from Audi UK.
> 
> I do hope that any avenue you go down doesn't disrupt that. This nearly happened once before. :?


Okay I admit I opened myself up for the abuse and yes I do have a sense of humour :lol:

However there is loads wrong with the TTOC as is at the moment. As I said I'm not prepared to indulge in a forum battle unless the TTOC are prepared to be truthful and the committee are happy to take part in an open and proper conversation with the members of this forum.

Like I said, this forum has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TTOC. You can speak your mind for the benefit of other TT owners. Politics should not come into it and membership of TTOC does not mean you can't speak your mind.

As a positive the TTOC Donington event was good, but it could be MUCH, MUCH better and better...

Cheers

Rich


----------



## philbur

Any well constructed poll should always include a "don't know/care" option.

Phil



rustyintegrale said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Just thought I'd post the question...
> 
> We're all TT fans and we all spend a long time on here.
> 
> How do you feel about the TTOC?
> 
> Are you happy?
> 
> Does it fulfil your expectations?
> 
> Does your membership provide value for money?
> 
> Do you feel neglected?
> 
> Please take part in the poll and PM me if you have any suggestions for a club that meets your needs...


----------



## rustyintegrale

Toshiba said:


> Im not clear what you are wanting from an OC.
> 
> Do you want more events?
> Should it be cheaper?
> Do you want more people involved?
> Do you want you're own site? (that they have)
> 
> Can i ask why you think it needs to be changed?


I was on the committee.

From my point of view it was too restrictive to make a club work as a club should - for the benefit of the paying members...

Progress can be stumbled by egos, committee decisions about everything to the point of being unworkable, family life, other commitments and the fact that it is a volunteer organisation... I volunteered too!

I'll leave it to you to guess which of those might be an unreasonable hold up...

Cheers

Rich


----------



## KenTT

On the whole I think the TTOC does a very good job, when you consider how much hard work & dedication some of the undertakings must take (national event & club magazine). My local area rep, Paul aka NaughTTy has alway done an out standing job with all the local meets and is very good at bringing such a enthusiastic & friendly face to the fore of the TTOC, all this on top of a young family and work commitments.

If Paul is typical of other club volunteers then in my mind there is no way that you could improve on what they already do so well  .


----------



## rustyintegrale

philbur said:


> Any well constructed poll should always include a "don't know/care" option.


Well we can only have three questions.

But your opinion seems to suggest a neutral/don't give a shit opinion anyway.

Is that worth counting?

cheers

Rich


----------



## rustyintegrale

KenTT said:


> On the whole I think the TTOC does a very good job, when you consider how much hard work & dedication some of the undertakings must take (national event & club magazine). My local area rep, Paul aka NaughTTy has alway done an out standing job with all the local meets and is very good at bringing such a enthusiastic & friendly face to the fore of the TTOC, all this on top of a young family and work commitments.
> 
> If Paul is typical of other club volunteers then in my mind there is no way that you could improve on what they already do so well  .


The roots of this club always seem to perform better than the hierarchy...

Don't ask me what the chairman and vice-chairman were doing as guests of Audi in the last two weeks...

Given that the majority of people here are stitched up by the dealers and Audi UK, does the committee's brown-nosing of Audi UK not piss you off just a little bit?

Or is their behaviour truly representative of the membership..?

cheers

rich


----------



## Leg

Do you not think that the issues the TTF causes the TTOC (i.e. this forum is the heart of the TT community, certainly in the UK) would affect another club just the same?

The TTOC will always struggle whilst it doesnt have the premier forums for TT owners and the only club that could replace the TTOC and not suffer from the same key issue that the current club does would have to be an extension of the TTF. That in itself presents the main problem with any 'club' because what exactly would anyone want from a club that the TTF doesnt deliver already?

Meets? They happen through the TTF, not the TTOC
A Magazine? Why bother, this forum is full of much more information than any magazine
A website? Plenty of TT websites such as Waks and (sorry cant remember the owners name) that recent Mk2 portal not to mention the TTF
Discounts? Group buys happen through the TTF
A sense of community? Whenever anyone spots a probable members car where do they go to ask if it was who they thought it was? Yup, TTF.

The only thing I can think of is the annual meet. TTOC work hard to organise that which I have seen first hand (I was also on the Committee for a short term and quit because I couldnt cope with the bureacracy that was in place to run a small car club).

I'm not knocking any TTOC rep or committee member, they have more patience, energy and enthusiasm for it than I could ever muster, what I am saying is, to me, any TT club is defunct in the face of such a lively forum as this.

In fact, surely the TTF IS the alternative TT club and we are all members already? The wierd thing is, no one runs this one, the mods only show up once in a blue moon.

PS. You invited people to tell you to 'fuck off' if they disagreed with you so, for the first time ever in the history of the world, I have to say in support of Rebel, he only did what you invited him to do. Someone was bound to once the invitation was made. Usually it would be me but Rebel beat me to it.


----------



## Hev

To say the least, I am disappointed in this thread :? .............the forum has already split into MK1 and MK2, the 'them' and 'us' attitude stinks!!! Now, the sh!tty stick is out again :x



rustyintegrale said:


> I want to take part in something more exciting and involving





rustyintegrale said:


> Just thought I'd post the question...
> 
> We're all TT fans and we all spend a long time on here.
> 
> How do you feel about the TTOC?
> 
> Are you happy?
> 
> Does it fulfil your expectations?
> 
> Does your membership provide value for money?
> 
> Do you feel neglected?


As you know, the majority of meets are organised by the local Reps. I can assure you that any new ideas for local meets and events would be welcome.

If you started up a new club, I'd be intersted to see if things would be much different - or would they be a variation of a theme???

What ARE your expectations?

Some inside information about running meets........I was asked by some of my fellow enthusiasts if we could do something like karting. I researched and made a provisional booking .......payment in full is expected within 7 days of making the booking ........... can I guarantee that I will get the money back for 14 - 20 people at Â£40 odd per head? ...can I afford to take that risk??

On the up-side, I have organised trips to do some Archery, weekends away, cruises to the National Events, plays in the countryside......... the list goes on........ just look in the Events Section in the ScoTTish threads. Various people on the forum have slagged off the amount of gibbering of rubbish we have on the threads but there is nowhere else on the forum that has that kind of friendship.

The members of the committee work hard to make the club a success as do the Reps but remember we are all human. Sometimes our private life and/or work life get in the way of our cars but the offer of someone else taking the reigns for a while can be a great relief! That does not necessarily mean that we need a new club, just a little bit of help/nudge/suggestions/support.

Hev x


----------



## rustyintegrale

Leg said:


> Do you not think that the issues the TTF causes the TTOC (i.e. this forum is the heart of the TT community, certainly in the UK) would affect another club just the same?


Maybe, But we all know about the bickering between the existing TTOC and the TTF. I would aspire to a more cooperative agreement since I have no argument with the TTF and nor do people that post here on a regular basis.



Leg said:


> The TTOC will always struggle whilst it doesnt have the premier forums for TT owners and the only club that could replace the TTOC and not suffer from the same key issue that the current club does would have to be an extension of the TTF. That in itself presents the main problem with any 'club' because what exactly would anyone want from a club that the TTF doesnt deliver already?


Cohesion, cooperation and a single goal - the best interests of the members...



Leg said:


> Meets? They happen through the TTF, not the TTOC
> A Magazine? Why bother, this forum is full of much more information than any magazine
> A website? Plenty of TT websites such as Waks and (sorry cant remember the owners name) that recent Mk2 portal not to mention the TTF
> Discounts? Group buys happen through the TTF
> A sense of community? Whenever anyone spots a probable members car where do they go to ask if it was who they thought it was? Yup, TTF.


Agreed. That's why the TTOC needs the TTF to survive. The two should complement each other, not bicker...



Leg said:


> The only thing I can think of is the annual meet. TTOC work hard to organise that which I have seen first hand (I was also on the Committee for a short term and quit because I couldnt cope with the bureacracy that was in place to run a small car club).


And I thought it was me...:lol:



Leg said:


> I'm not knocking any TTOC rep or committee member, they have more patience, energy and enthusiasm for it than I could ever muster, what I am saying is, to me, any TT club is defunct in the face of such a lively forum as this.
> 
> In fact, surely the TTF IS the alternative TT club and we are all members already? The wierd thing is, no one runs this one, the mods only show up once in a blue moon.


Yep, that may be true. But I would suspect there are some owners of TTs that don't belong to either the forum or the club. The UK is a big market for the TT and just a small proportion belong to any club. That's a big gap and we have to ask why they choose not to extend their enjoyment of the car. Maybe they view us as completely anal knobs. Maybe they can't be arsed. Maybe they don't care...

Whatever, there are a lot of owners who know nothing about the TTOC or the TTF...



Leg said:


> PS. You invited people to tell you to 'fuck off' if they disagreed with you so, for the first time ever in the history of the world, I have to say in support of Rebel, he only did what you invited him to do. Someone was bound to once the invitation was made. Usually it would be me but Rebel beat me to it.


Good call and I hold my hand up to that! :lol:

Wanker :lol:


----------



## Toshiba

Hev said:


> To say the least, I am disappointed in this thread :? .............the forum has already split into MK1 and MK2, the 'them' and 'us' attitude stinks!!! Now, the sh!tty stick is out again :x


Not sure i agree about that one. The forum is more focused because of the split. I personally dont want to wade through lots of post on what is the best DV or how big the spacers need to be. Equally im sure others dont want to hear about the seats issue or what options or polish is a must.

Just IMO


----------



## Hev

Toshiba said:


> Hev said:
> 
> 
> 
> To say the least, I am disappointed in this thread :? .............the forum has already split into MK1 and MK2, the 'them' and 'us' attitude stinks!!! Now, the sh!tty stick is out again :x
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure i agree about that one. The forum is more focused because of the split. I personally dont want to wade through lots of post on what is the best DV or how big the spacers need to be. Equally im sure others dont want to hear about the seats issue or what options or polish is a must.
> 
> Just IMO
Click to expand...

Fair enough about the wading through of topics - especially when you are looking for something in particular. I suppose what I'm getting at is the 'MK2 is better than the MK1' attitude. Each of us has made a choice based on numerous influences but the 'holier than thou' guff really bugs me.

Hev x


----------



## rustyintegrale

Hev said:


> Toshiba said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hev said:
> 
> 
> 
> To say the least, I am disappointed in this thread :? .............the forum has already split into MK1 and MK2, the 'them' and 'us' attitude stinks!!! Now, the sh!tty stick is out again :x
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure i agree about that one. The forum is more focused because of the split. I personally dont want to wade through lots of post on what is the best DV or how big the spacers need to be. Equally im sure others dont want to hear about the seats issue or what options or polish is a must.
> 
> Just IMO
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Fair enough about the wading through of topics - especially when you are looking for something in particular. I suppose what I'm getting at is the 'MK2 is better than the MK1' attitude. Each of us has made a choice based on numerous influences but the 'holier than thou' guff really bugs me.
> 
> Hev x
Click to expand...

Where has anyone said that in this thread? :?


----------



## philbur

Of course.

If most people don't give a sh*t then you're pis**ng into the wind arenâ€™t you.[smiley=dunce2.gif]

Phil



rustyintegrale said:


> philbur said:
> 
> 
> 
> Any well constructed poll should always include a "don't know/care" option.
> 
> 
> 
> Well we can only have three questions.
> 
> But your opinion seems to suggest a neutral/don't give a shit opinion anyway.
> 
> Is that worth counting?
> 
> cheers
> 
> Rich
Click to expand...


----------



## mighTy Tee

What benefits would a "Rusty Integrali" TT club have over the TTOC?

If you feel the current leadership of the TTOC needs a change then the AGM is the time to put yourself forward to be the new captain of the ship (the current senior committee have been in office for approaching 5 years and are re-elected democratically each year).

Maybe though, you should insist on a postal vote, so that all those who care have opportunity to vote, regardless of whether they can attend the AGM.


----------



## rustyintegrale

mighTy Tee said:


> What benefits would a "Rusty Integrali" TT club have over the TTOC?
> 
> If you feel the current leadership of the TTOC needs a change then the AGM is the time to put yourself forward to be the new captain of the ship (the current senior committee have been in office for approaching 5 years and are re-elected democratically each year).
> 
> Maybe though, you should insist on a postal vote, so that all those who care have opportunity to vote, regardless of whether they can attend the AGM.


If you read this thread from the beginning you'll see that it initially asked if their was room for another TT Club. There is a poll running to gauge opinion.

As far as my involvement with the TTOC is concerned, I volunteered my services as 'Club Designer' prior to Donington. During that time I found the TTOC working methods frustrating, mainly because communication between committee members is so fragmented and difficult.

As most who volunteer time for the TTOC will testify, it can be an all-consuming job (if you let it) and because of these working processes I felt unable to continue whilst maintaining a satisfactory balance between work, private life and the TTOC.

As a member you may well be happy with everything the TTOC provides. However, having seen it from the other side of the fence I found it wanting.

I have no wish to stand for election to any post within the TTOC but agree that your suggestion for a postal vote might be more representative of the whole membership, rather than just the die-hards prepared to devote enough time and money to attend an AGM.

Cheers

Rich


----------



## Rhod_TT

rustyintegrale said:


> Yep, that may be true. But I would suspect there are some owners of TTs that don't belong to either the forum or the club. The UK is a big market for the TT and just a small proportion belong to any club. That's a big gap and we have to ask why they choose not to extend their enjoyment of the car. Maybe they view us as completely anal knobs. Maybe they can't be arsed. Maybe they don't care...


When I've handed out TTOC cards there's been a few times when I've got a "I don't care/weirdo/knob" type of response. I'd say only a small percentage of TT owners really want more from their enjoyment of their car than just as a comfortable place to be while travelling from A to B. And the TTF/TTOC websites are already going to be the first port of call for any interested party (since it's fairly unlikely that they'll be a TT "nerd" without having the internet). It is a shame though that the TTOC don't push the TTF at all on thier advertising cards since it's such a heavily used resource for existing/potential members (and likewise the TTF don't encorage forum members to consider joining the TTOC). I'd like to see a tie together that's good for all parties.



VicTT said:


> Haven't been a member long so probably not qualified, but:
> 
> Disappointed there's no active South West Rep.


 That's my fault personally I guess - but if you've got any ideas of a regular/one-off meet then PM me and I'll see what I can do. I would like to organise some karting but as said previously it's a personal risk to make an expensive booking if people don't ultimately turn up.



VicTT said:


> There's more forum organised meets than club ones.


I don't really agree with this. The organisers tend to be TTOC regional reps. If these TTOC event's were organised separately without additional "advertising" on the TTF then they wouldn't be so well attended. From my point of view it would be easier to be able to e-mail all TTOC members in the my region but information privacy rules means I can't have access to those addresses (and you can't sort the TTF members list by "region" so it's really not easy to contact individuals directly). So the TTF is the only "active" place to do the organisation.


----------



## brittan

Rhod_TT said:


> VicTT said:
> 
> 
> 
> Haven't been a member long so probably not qualified, but:
> 
> Disappointed there's no active South West Rep.
> 
> 
> 
> That's my fault personally I guess - but if you've got any ideas of a regular/one-off meet then PM me and I'll see what I can do. I would like to organise some karting but as said previously it's a personal risk to make an expensive booking if people don't ultimately turn up.
Click to expand...

Er, No, not really aimed personally at you Rhod. And I understand the position regarding the outlay for events like karting where people can't/won't commit and pay up in time. PM sent.



Rhod_TT said:


> VicTT said:
> 
> 
> 
> There's more forum organised meets than club ones.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't really agree with this. The organisers tend to be TTOC regional reps. If these TTOC event's were organised separately without additional "advertising" on the TTF then they wouldn't be so well attended. From my point of view it would be easier to be able to e-mail all TTOC members in the my region but information privacy rules means I can't have access to those addresses (and you can't sort the TTF members list by "region" so it's really not easy to contact individuals directly). So the TTF is the only "active" place to do the organisation.
Click to expand...

Perhaps this is just another reason to connect the TTOC and TTF more properly. My feeling is that the only 'club' event I have attended this year was at Donnington. I agree that the TTF is the easiest, quickest, cheapest communication method available and I realise the restrictions of Data Protection.


----------



## Mark Davies

I joined both this forum and the TTOC at the same time, thought not particularly long ago. As a result, I can't say I've been particularly aware of any 'politics' between the two.

However, I think I can make some observations based on my experience involved with a similar set-up. My other interest is SCUBA diving and for some years have been very much involved in what is the largest internet diving forum in Europe. Like here, many of the members also belong to clubs of some sort, and like here, the forum itself tends to operate as a club in its own right.

I have to say, I don't think I've yet had very much from the TTOC. I got my initial pack, the first lot of magazines - and then nothing else. I do appreciate that but for some delays in publication I should have had another magazine by now, but that hasn't turned up yet. But even if it had, am I getting value for money?

Well, it's hard for me to guage really as I didn't manage to get to Doddington for EvenTT07. If I had, and my membership provided some benefits at the event, such as exclusive access to certain parts of the show or some such, then probably. That, the magazines and then members discounts are probably worth the Â£30.

Now, coming back to the diving forum. I tend to organize all my diving via that - indeed the forum members are very active in that respect, with many diving trips being arranged all around the country every weekend. In fact, over the years I have personally organized about 50 trips including 4 trips abroad. Internet fora are increadibly good for that sort of thing - because they can reach many more people very much more easily. Our diving forum has nearly 11,000 registered members, which is a massive pool of potential when you are just looking for 12 people to fill a dive charter boat. It's all in the numbers.

The point I'm trying to illustrate is that TTOC perhaps has one function and TTF has another - and perhaps by agreement there should be some division of focus. TTF is perfect for discussion, as a source of information and organisation of local meetings. However, when it comes to organizing large events like EvenTT then something with more structure and cohesion is perhaps required.

Our dive forum works very well alongside all the different clubs, simply by virtue of having so many people active in both. I don't think there needs to be a single entity. It doesn't matter that TTOC and TTF have different owners - not as long as those involved in TTOC are active here and are welcome here. That, after all, is to the benefit of us all.

So my take on it is this. I think TTOC should concentrate on organizing EvenTT (and making that the very best it can be) and work on arranging member benefits - such as supplier discounts. I think they ought to consider dropping the magazine. I suspect it is very time consuming and probably doesn't do more than give members something tactile through their letterbox to make them feel they are getting something for their money. With the presence of an active forum that people can visit daily and get whatever information they want, the magazine really becomes redundant. I don't need it and I'd prefer the time was spent on making EvenTT the best it can be.

We still need active members organizing meets, and maybe there is room for TTOC reps - people who want to volunteer to do that. Even though there are 11,000 of us on the dive forum, even at a fairly generous estimate, I'd guess there are no more than 30 of us who actually organize dive trips with any regularity. But that said, that's enough to make the 'club' extremely active. If each of us only organizes 5 trips a year there are still 3 every single week. Added to that there are all the 'one-off' trips that other members organize, so if each year you have say 50 people who will do a trip and only one trip then we have 4 trips a week. Plenty!

Simply put, a lively forum will look after itself. People who are keen on their chosen hobby will want to be doing stuff and _will_ organize stuff. TTF is a lively forum, so I think TTOC can afford to leave the organization of small local meets to the forum.

If people here don't think the TTOC is doing enough in terms of small, local activity then I think the answer is simple. Don't expect other people to do it all for you. If you are here then you already have the perfect tool to get what you want. Don't rely on TTOC - use this forum and do it yourself. You'll find it's not as hard as all that.

Everything we need is already in place. There's no need for a new owner's club - just an agreed division of function.


----------



## rustyintegrale

Mark Davies said:


> So my take on it is this. I think TTOC should concentrate on organizing EvenTT (and making that the very best it can be) and work on arranging member benefits - such as supplier discounts. I think they ought to consider dropping the magazine. I suspect it is very time consuming and probably doesn't do more than give members something tactile through their letterbox to make them feel they are getting something for their money. With the presence of an active forum that people can visit daily and get whatever information they want, the magazine really becomes redundant. I don't need it and I'd prefer the time was spent on making EvenTT the best it can be.


Hi Mark,

I think your comments are some of the most considered and constructive I have read so far... 

Referring to the quote above, do you think members of the TTOC would still be happy to pay a membership fee?

If the TTOC is to concentrate solely on organising EvenTT08 then there really is little else the club gives back for its membership fee. No magazine, no presence and so precious little communication.

And given that ANY TT owner can attend the national event (albeit for a slightly increased ticket price) then what is the point of the TTOC at all?

It may just as well be organised by a sponsor (such as Audi) and become a purely commercial venture opened up to owners of every model in the range. An AudiFest if you see what I mean.

To my mind that isn't necessarily a bad thing... 

Cheers

Rich


----------



## O5prey

I'm another relative newbie, but here's my two-penneth worth.

Firstly, the good ...
 Our local rep is excellent. He organises regular meets and always has time (& a smile) no matter what th emembers do to test him!!
 The overall support network (TTOC and/or TTF) is as good as I've experienced - and better than most!
 Donnington was a good event that with experience will get better.

The bad ...
:? Committee members should acutally declare the freebies and ask the wider membership if others want to go ... I fully appreciate some committee members may devote a lot of time to the club but they should declare what they've had.
:? Links with Audi CS - close but no cigar.Real value would be if a deal was done with local dealers for preferential treatment (e.g. rates, open days, track days, non-car social events etc)
:? The TT is a mass-market car (ouch that hurt to write  ) that needs mass-market marketing not just in the car press - oH hold on a minute I've not seen any advertising? 

the ugly ...
 I've heard nothing from the TTOC for nearly a year - still waiting for magazines etc
 Lack of support from industry - there doesn't seem to be the desire (or market place) for the big bioys to really commit to the TTOC / TTF the way other clubs have managed (e.g. Renault or Scooby come to mind). from the outside -IT LOOKS AS THOUGH THE - the bigger players have a cartel operating and therefore don't see the need for sposorship of their target market?! :!: This is only my opinion not a fact :!: 
 I get the impression the TTOC is quite new, but they haven't looked at other clubs to see what they are doing - has anyone been in touch with the other car clubs?

Rather than creating a break-away club I think the the only way to improve is to get big enough to be a serious player like the Ford and scooby clubs (Who hasn't heard of or seen an RS Owners club sticker near them?) who have really shown how us to do it.


----------



## Wallsendmag

I think that your best bet is to move to Scotland to see how it should be done.(no offence meant Andy)


----------



## tod

Agree stongly with what Mark said, when I signed up for the OC it was because I thought it was one and the same as the forum.

Every owners club I am in, the main part of paying for membership is not only to help towards meets and so on but also the running of the forum itself because let's face it this is where it all happens!

The place is a holy grail of information for the average TT owner and at the end of the day I would have put my money towards the up keep here rather than a magazine.

I have no gripes with the OC, how it's run or it's committee but I for one will not be taking out a new membership.


----------



## Hoggy

tod said:


> Agree stongly with what Mark said, when I signed up for the OC it was because I thought it was one and the same as the forum.
> 
> Every owners club I am in, the main part of paying for membership is not only to help towards meets and so on but also the running of the forum itself because let's face it this is where it all happens!
> 
> The place is a holy grail of information for the average TT owner and at the end of the day I would have put my money towards the up keep here rather than a magazine.
> 
> I have no gripes with the OC, how it's run or it's committee but I for one will not be taking out a new membership.


Totally agree, I was most suprised when I discovered TTOC was not part of the TTF.  
H.


----------



## tod

PS, not voted as I would prefer to stay on an established forum (like this) and see the OC merged with the forum.


----------



## Mark Davies

rustyintegrale said:


> Referring to the quote above, do you think members of the TTOC would still be happy to pay a membership fee?


I'd be happy to pay a fee if there was a list of useful suppliers willing to provide a discount on production of a card and if I got free (or significantly reduced) entry to EvenTT. I wouldn't really want anything more than that but would welcome a tie-in with this forum, with perhaps some of my TTOC fee going to TTF's upkeep.

I've never belonged to any other vehicle owner's clubs, so frankly I don't know what better organisation can achieve and don't have anything to compare TTOC with. Maybe limiting its remit to organising EvenTT is missing a trick and there's much more that could be done for the members, but that depends on how much effort needs to be put into it. With a forum like TTF (and my diving forum) the work is spread out over many more people so that there isn't a huge burden on a handful of individuals. People put into it what they have time for and everyone is encouraged to give it a go.

There's much less politics too. In dive clubs there is a committe and people are elected to specific roles. That creates empires, vested interests and ultimately generates problems. For that reason I don't belong to a dive club and do all my diving via the internet forum, where anybody is free to organise something if they want. If someone has an idea, like a group buy or arranging a members' discount from a particular supplier, they just get on and do it. It seems much the same happens here, and long may it continue.


----------



## rustyintegrale

Mark Davies said:


> rustyintegrale said:
> 
> 
> 
> Referring to the quote above, do you think members of the TTOC would still be happy to pay a membership fee?
> 
> 
> 
> I'd be happy to pay a fee if there was a list of useful suppliers willing to provide a discount on production of a card and if I got free (or significantly reduced) entry to EvenTT. I wouldn't really want anything more than that but would welcome a tie-in with this forum, with perhaps some of my TTOC fee going to TTF's upkeep.
> 
> I've never belonged to any other vehicle owner's clubs, so frankly I don't know what better organisation can achieve and don't have anything to compare TTOC with. Maybe limiting its remit to organising EvenTT is missing a trick and there's much more that could be done for the members, but that depends on how much effort needs to be put into it. With a forum like TTF (and my diving forum) the work is spread out over many more people so that there isn't a huge burden on a handful of individuals. People put into it what they have time for and everyone is encouraged to give it a go.
> 
> There's much less politics too. In dive clubs there is a committe and people are elected to specific roles. That creates empires, vested interests and ultimately generates problems. For that reason I don't belong to a dive club and do all my diving via the internet forum, where anybody is free to organise something if they want. If someone has an idea, like a group buy or arranging a members' discount from a particular supplier, they just get on and do it. It seems much the same happens here, and long may it continue.
Click to expand...

You sir, are a man after my own heart...

You might be a... you know... one of them [smiley=policeman.gif] but most of what you say rings true 

Cheers

rich


----------



## Hev

Mark Davies said:


> rustyintegrale said:
> 
> 
> 
> Referring to the quote above, do you think members of the TTOC would still be happy to pay a membership fee?
> 
> 
> 
> I'd be happy to pay a fee if there was a list of useful suppliers willing to provide a discount on production of a card
Click to expand...

You do at Aberdeen Audi 

Hev x


----------



## rustyintegrale

Hev said:


> Mark Davies said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rustyintegrale said:
> 
> 
> 
> Referring to the quote above, do you think members of the TTOC would still be happy to pay a membership fee?
> 
> 
> 
> I'd be happy to pay a fee if there was a list of useful suppliers willing to provide a discount on production of a card
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You do at Aberdeen Audi
> 
> Hev x
Click to expand...

Handy when you win a prize in a raffle... :roll:


----------



## Hev

rustyintegrale said:


> Hev said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mark Davies said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rustyintegrale said:
> 
> 
> 
> Referring to the quote above, do you think members of the TTOC would still be happy to pay a membership fee?
> 
> 
> 
> I'd be happy to pay a fee if there was a list of useful suppliers willing to provide a discount on production of a card
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You do at Aberdeen Audi
> 
> Hev x
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Handy when you win a prize in a raffle... :roll:
Click to expand...

I asked for a donation............THEY chose the prize - I had no influence over the prize ........... we are thankful for their support.

Incidentally, Aberdeen Audi paid for our very first go at archery. They paid out a three figure sum while they did not expect guaranteed business in return! Audi UK did not pay it, the amount came out of the Centre's budget and I for one am grateful.

Hev x


----------



## rustyintegrale

Hev said:


> rustyintegrale said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hev said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mark Davies said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rustyintegrale said:
> 
> 
> 
> Referring to the quote above, do you think members of the TTOC would still be happy to pay a membership fee?
> 
> 
> 
> I'd be happy to pay a fee if there was a list of useful suppliers willing to provide a discount on production of a card
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You do at Aberdeen Audi
> 
> Hev x
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Handy when you win a prize in a raffle... :roll:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I asked for a donation............THEY chose the prize - I had no influence over the prize ........... we are thankful for their support.
> 
> Incidentally, Aberdeen Audi paid for our very first go at archery. They paid out a three figure sum while they did not expect guaranteed business in return! Audi UK did not pay it, the amount came out of the Centre's budget and I for one am grateful.
> 
> Hev x
Click to expand...

Oh Hev, you're missing the point :lol:

I'm not knocking Aberdeen Audi OR their generosity or choice of prize...

It's just when it goes to someone who's won a Donington raffle and they're based down south it becomes a little tricky...

The winner was posting for weeks about the fact he could do nothing with it... and emailing the TTOC asking for advice...

What was your solution and when did you all agree to it?

Cheers

Rich


----------



## tod

May be missing a part here but when you enter a raffle you know what you could win, the person that entered must have known they could have ended up with this prize?

If this is the case then what does it have to do with the OC :?


----------



## rustyintegrale

tod said:


> May be missing a part here but when you enter a raffle you know what you could win, the person that entered must have known they could have ended up with this prize?
> 
> If this is the case then what does it have to do with the OC :?


Point taken, but the guy wanted to exchange his Aberdeen voucher for something more local to him - not an unreasonable request.

I should've thought that would be easy to arrange with a few phone calls or a bit of creative thought...

Cheers

rich


----------



## tod

But if it was a raffle and the prizes were drawn then what's to swap, everyone has been allocated a prize based on their own raffle ticket :?

I see what you are getting at but given the circumstances I really don't see that it was the OCs responsibilty to resolve.

I would have just sold it to someone up north


----------



## Hev

rustyintegrale said:


> Hev said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rustyintegrale said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hev said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mark Davies said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rustyintegrale said:
> 
> 
> 
> Referring to the quote above, do you think members of the TTOC would still be happy to pay a membership fee?
> 
> 
> 
> I'd be happy to pay a fee if there was a list of useful suppliers willing to provide a discount on production of a card
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You do at Aberdeen Audi
> 
> Hev x
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Handy when you win a prize in a raffle... :roll:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I asked for a donation............THEY chose the prize - I had no influence over the prize ........... we are thankful for their support.
> 
> Incidentally, Aberdeen Audi paid for our very first go at archery. They paid out a three figure sum while they did not expect guaranteed business in return! Audi UK did not pay it, the amount came out of the Centre's budget and I for one am grateful.
> 
> Hev x
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh Hev, you're missing the point :lol:
> 
> I'm not knocking Aberdeen Audi OR their generosity or choice of prize...
> 
> It's just when it goes to someone who's won a Donington raffle and they're based down south it becomes a little tricky...
> 
> The winner was posting for weeks about the fact he could do nothing with it... and emailing the TTOC asking for advice...
> 
> What was your solution
Click to expand...

I have no idea what the outcome to this was..............it was agreed that the winner would contact Aberdeen Audi directly and they would bash out the details between them. I believe this is what happened.



rustyintegrale said:


> and when did you *all agree to it*?


I'm not sure what you are getting at here :?...the only two parties who needed to come to an agreement was Aberdeen Audi and the prize winner.

I apologise if I am missing points with your thread and I am glad that my posting is providing you with some entertainment, I am merely of the opinion that people like myself try our best to meet and exceed the expectations of club members (and when it comes to meets, non members too - I'll never refuse anyone...a TT is not compulsary!). You want a better club but what do you want??

Hev x


----------



## Love_iTT

I have only just seen this thread so applogies for the late input.

The main reason for recent delays in the magazine are down to me resigning from the TTOC committee because of changes in my home and work life.

In an ideal world I would have much preferred to have given the TTOC much more time in trying to secure someone to continue my role for producing the artwork and print of the magazine, however, this was not possible and I had to leave the committee (and you, the TTOC members) in the lurch which did not go down to well for my conscious I can tell you. I knew there would be a problem and delay with the next issue but there was nothing I could do.

Believe me when I say that although you may think that there is nothing happening re the magazine, I know that there is a LOT of hard work going on behind the scenes with the existing TTOC committee trying to get the next issue out. Don't forget that this is still on the backs of people trying to do this in their free time.

Obviously I don't own a TT any more but I still have the remaining TTOC membership left and will, if I'm allowed, be renewing the membership when it's due.

Why?

Because I feel the TTOC (as a club) is a club with real people belonging to it - not a large forum like this with just virtual names. I have met quite a few of these virtual names by going along to my local meet and also the summer national plus a few others. Don't get me wrong, I think this forum is great, a mass of information available at your fingertips, you can post a question up about virtually anything and you know you'll get an answer back pretty quickly - all excellent stuff.

And this is really the crux of the matter. I believe both the TTOC and the TT-F can co-exist for different reasons, not that one is better than the other but both are better than each other for certain things.

One final point, Â£25 a year for TTOC membership - that's about Â£2 a month, now I reckon that's pretty good value for money when you consider for that you get the summer nationals organised for you plus four issues of the magazine (yeah I know this one is late but I've explained that) plus a whole host of other things as well. Ask any of the people who have had their car featured in absoluTTe if they didn't feel just a little proud and I think we can all guess what the answer would be. :wink:

Graham


----------



## rustyintegrale

Hev said:


> ...the only two parties who needed to come to an agreement was Aberdeen Audi and the prize winner.


Well ain't that just typical? Having won his prize and contributed to TTOC coffers you dump him like a hot potato. Just remember I had access to the TTOC committee board. I saw the problems you guys had trying to sort this :lol:



Hev said:


> I apologise if I am missing points with your thread and I am glad that my posting is providing you with some entertainment


It's not entertaining, believe me... :?



Hev said:


> I am merely of the opinion that people like myself try our best to meet and exceed the expectations of club members (and when it comes to meets, non members too - I'll never refuse anyone...a TT is not compulsary!). You want a better club but what do you want??


Yes and everyone agrees that you all try to do that. I'd just like to see the process made easier... What I want is neither here nor there. It's down to what the members want. Some support for TTOC raffle winners would be a good start...

cheers

rich


----------



## rustyintegrale

Love_iTT said:


> I know that there is a LOT of hard work going on behind the scenes with the existing TTOC committee trying to get the next issue out. Don't forget that this is still on the backs of people trying to do this in their free time.


Absolutely Graham, and I more than anyone on the committee can understand where you are coming from.

Production of a magazine is no part-time matter so surely the process should be as painless and as simple as possible - especially when it's all done on a voluntary basis...

If AbsoluTTe is to survive then the process from editorial to delivery needs speeding up bigtime. Too many people are involved and the 'approval' process is slowed through other commitments.

It needs to be professionally produced and the control of that should be released from committee members who are already stretched for time.

Thanks Graham! You did a mighty fine job under conditions I could not accept.

cheers

rich


----------



## Mark Davies

Love_iTT said:


> Because I feel the TTOC (as a club) is a club with real people belonging to it - not a large forum like this with just virtual names.


This is a very fair point, and again I think I can draw parallels from my diving forum.

There is a good reason why I use my real name on this forum - and indeed on every other one I belong to. I think it's quite important in this media to try and overcome the anonymity, because by doing so you make it a far more civilised place. Further to that it is very important for the ambience and longevity of an internet forum for at least a core of its members to actually know each other personally. Our diving forum has been leaps-and-bounds more succesful than other fora because we do dive together. I have met some of my best and closest friends through it and have contacts not only all over the UK but throughout the world. It's not important that everyone knows everybody else, but a core at the centre of it does help the place thrive when it carries that atmosphere of genuine respect and familiarity that you only get with people you have met.

The point I'm making is that such a thing *can* be achieved in an internet forum - all it needs is a group of people keen enough to get together and get to know each other. So the message is that maybe the TTOC is not essential for that function and that the same can be done by TTF, and perhaps much better.

Perhaps a pertinent question is why exactly is there a barrier between the two? What is preventing a partnership?


----------



## scoTTy

When the poll was created, what percentage did you have in mind that would give you the green like to create a rival TTOC? Alternatively what percentage would you need to see to give it up?

JUst wondering as at the moment it looks quite clear cut.


----------



## rustyintegrale

scoTTy said:


> When the poll was created, what percentage did you have in mind that would give you the green like to create a rival TTOC? Alternatively what percentage would you need to see to give it up?
> 
> JUst wondering as at the moment it looks quite clear cut.


No preconceived idea I'm afraid, I just asked the question.

The results speak for themselves so far i guess.. 70% happy and 30% not...

From a total of 50 votes cast I'd say that was pretty conclusive :lol: :lol:


----------



## Hev

rustyintegrale said:


> Hev said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...the only two parties who needed to come to an agreement was Aberdeen Audi and the prize winner.
> 
> 
> 
> Well ain't that just typical? Having won his prize and contributed to TTOC coffers you dump him like a hot potato. Just remember I had access to the TTOC committee board. I saw the problems you guys had trying to sort this :lol:
Click to expand...

Good grief! For goodness sake, a raffle is a game of chance. Unfortunately the prize was location dependent but surely the TTOC cannot be held responsible. Reps were asked to approach dealers for donations...I approached Aberdeen Audi and they kindly offered to support us. You and I both know that the financial cost to the Centre would not be equivalent to the financial value to the prize winner therefore, to ask the Centre to have the voucher transfered to another Centre is a tad unreasonable. Maybe it is your opinion that we shouldn't make approaches in fear that the support may be inappropriate. I believe that it was suggested to the winner that he may want to sell the voucher on (ok I admit he would probably not get the face value for it, but there are plenty of TT's in the North who could benefit). I can honestly put my hand up and say that I have no idea what the outcome was.........afterall, I was in the middle of numerous house-moves at the time (email and forum use was definitely limited!).



rustyintegral said:


> Hev said:
> 
> 
> 
> I apologise if I am missing points with your thread and I am glad that my posting is providing you with some entertainment
> 
> 
> 
> It's not entertaining, believe me... :?
Click to expand...

Sorry, I obviously misunderstood your smilie:


rustyintegrale said:


> Oh Hev, you're missing the point :lol:





rustyintegral said:


> What I want is neither here nor there. It's down to what the members want


But you started this thread with the obvious mind that the club was not giving you what *you *want :?

Hev x


----------



## Love_iTT

rustyintegrale said:


> Love_iTT said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know that there is a LOT of hard work going on behind the scenes with the existing TTOC committee trying to get the next issue out. Don't forget that this is still on the backs of people trying to do this in their free time.
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely Graham, and I more than anyone on the committee can understand where you are coming from.
> 
> Production of a magazine is no part-time matter so surely the process should be as painless and as simple as possible - especially when it's all done on a voluntary basis...
> 
> If AbsoluTTe is to survive then the process from editorial to delivery needs speeding up bigtime. Too many people are involved and the 'approval' process is slowed through other commitments.
> 
> It needs to be professionally produced and the control of that should be released from committee members who are already stretched for time.
> 
> Thanks Graham! You did a mighty fine job under conditions I could not accept.
> 
> cheers
> 
> rich
Click to expand...

Thanks Rich, much appreciated.

I must admit though, the biggest problem for me was not the proofing process - this was actually good in that once the article was in, then it was two proof reads then off to me - but getting the articles in the first place. The vast majority of the editorial is primarily sourced from TTOC club members, their cars, meetings, techie things etc, this is where it can get fraught for everyone because without the articles then I couldn't progress. There has been more than one occasion where I just couldn't quite finish because of one article. Do you wait or do you replace with a filler?

I suppose this is where the mag could improve - more editorial. Easier said than done. And this forum could be a good source for it but you try and get written up text and pics straight after an event, it's very, very difficult to get people to do it.

There has been suggestions for a few years now about scrapping the mag as it stands and to produce an electronic version but unfortuantly an electronic mag would have the same problem, I'm sure the production would not be a problem but if the articles are not there then there would be no electronic mag.

Graham


----------



## rustyintegrale

Love_iTT said:


> rustyintegrale said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Love_iTT said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know that there is a LOT of hard work going on behind the scenes with the existing TTOC committee trying to get the next issue out. Don't forget that this is still on the backs of people trying to do this in their free time.
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely Graham, and I more than anyone on the committee can understand where you are coming from.
> 
> Production of a magazine is no part-time matter so surely the process should be as painless and as simple as possible - especially when it's all done on a voluntary basis...
> 
> If AbsoluTTe is to survive then the process from editorial to delivery needs speeding up bigtime. Too many people are involved and the 'approval' process is slowed through other commitments.
> 
> It needs to be professionally produced and the control of that should be released from committee members who are already stretched for time.
> 
> Thanks Graham! You did a mighty fine job under conditions I could not accept.
> 
> cheers
> 
> rich
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks Rich, much appreciated.
> 
> I must admit though, the biggest problem for me was not the proofing process - this was actually good in that once the article was in, then it was two proof reads then off to me - but getting the articles in the first place. The vast majority of the editorial is primarily sourced from TTOC club members, their cars, meetings, techie things etc, this is where it can get fraught for everyone because without the articles then I couldn't progress. There has been more than one occasion where I just couldn't quite finish because of one article. Do you wait or do you replace with a filler?
> 
> I suppose this is where the mag could improve - more editorial. Easier said than done. And this forum could be a good source for it but you try and get written up text and pics straight after an event, it's very, very difficult to get people to do it.
> 
> There has been suggestions for a few years now about scrapping the mag as it stands and to produce an electronic version but unfortuantly an electronic mag would have the same problem, I'm sure the production would not be a problem but if the articles are not there then there would be no electronic mag.
> 
> Graham
Click to expand...

Here speaks a man who has been at the front line...

As I'm sure Graham will agree, an electronic version still has to be designed and produced...

If it don't look good in print it sure as hell won't look good as a PDF... :?

cheers

rich


----------



## rustyintegrale

Hev said:


> rustyintegrale said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hev said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...the only two parties who needed to come to an agreement was Aberdeen Audi and the prize winner.
> 
> 
> 
> Well ain't that just typical? Having won his prize and contributed to TTOC coffers you dump him like a hot potato. Just remember I had access to the TTOC committee board. I saw the problems you guys had trying to sort this :lol:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Good grief! For goodness sake, a raffle is a game of chance. Unfortunately the prize was location dependent but surely the TTOC cannot be held responsible. Reps were asked to approach dealers for donations...I approached Aberdeen Audi and they kindly offered to support us. You and I both know that the financial cost to the Centre would not be equivalent to the financial value to the prize winner therefore, to ask the Centre to have the voucher transfered to another Centre is a tad unreasonable. Maybe it is your opinion that we shouldn't make approaches in fear that the support may be inappropriate. I believe that it was suggested to the winner that he may want to sell the voucher on (ok I admit he would probably not get the face value for it, but there are plenty of TT's in the North who could benefit). I can honestly put my hand up and say that I have no idea what the outcome was.........afterall, I was in the middle of numerous house-moves at the time (email and forum use was definitely limited!).
> 
> 
> 
> rustyintegral said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hev said:
> 
> 
> 
> I apologise if I am missing points with your thread and I am glad that my posting is providing you with some entertainment
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's not entertaining, believe me... :?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sorry, I obviously misunderstood your smilie:
> 
> 
> rustyintegrale said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh Hev, you're missing the point :lol:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rustyintegral said:
> 
> 
> 
> What I want is neither here nor there. It's down to what the members want
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> But you started this thread with the obvious mind that the club was not giving you what *you *want :?
> 
> Hev x
Click to expand...

I suggest you go back to the beginning and read the original post. It says nothing about what I would like...

Cheers

rich


----------



## Leg

One point worth making is that the vast majority of the mods on the TTF are either TTOC reps or committee members. In some ways this is already the TTOC forums.

Also, why not drop the magazine and replace it with a monthly email newsletter? That newsletter could link to interesting threads on here, discuss forum activity, link to articles on the TTOC site and you could sell advertising and sponsorship of the newsletter to suppliers.

A monthly email newsletter will be more up to date than a quarterly magazine and could be a bridge between the TTF and TTOC. It can drive traffic to the TTOC site reminding people that they are TTOC members and there is a web presence beyond the TTF and it can communicate promotions, news and events before they appear on the TTF. A key problem with AbsoluTTe is that it isnt immediate enough and the TTF is.


----------



## Hev

rustyintegrale said:


> I suggest you go back to the beginning and read the original post. It says nothing about what I would like...


You have implied you are not happy......


rustyintegral said:


> Please take part in the poll and PM me if you have any suggestions for a club that meets your needs...


........... in my mind that statement says that you are willing to have a go at starting your own club..........but then again, that is only MY opinion of your statement.

Hev x


----------



## rustyintegrale

Hev said:


> rustyintegrale said:
> 
> 
> 
> I suggest you go back to the beginning and read the original post. It says nothing about what I would like...
> 
> 
> 
> You have implied you are not happy......
Click to expand...

That is correct. In my view the needs of the members are not fully met by the TTOC as it exists at the moment.



rustyintegral said:


> Please take part in the poll and PM me if you have any suggestions for a club that meets your needs...





Hev said:


> ........... in my mind that statement says that you are willing to have a go at starting your own club..........but then again, that is only MY opinion of your statement.
> 
> Hev x


I have considered starting another club, yes. But the current result split of this poll suggests that the long-term viability of another club would be in doubt.

In my view the suggestion by some on here that there should be more cohesion between the TTF and TTOC is a good one. It is ridiculous that some TTOC committee members are listed here as moderators yet for whatever reason these same moderators cannot come to some long-term, cooperative agreement with the owners of the TTF for the benefit of all - be they members of the TTF, TTOC, or both.

Cheers

Rich


----------



## KenTT

rustyintegrale said:


> I have considered starting another club, yes. But the current result split of this poll suggests that the long-term viability of another club would be in doubt.
> 
> In my view the suggestion by some on here that there should be more cohesion between the TTF and TTOC is a good one. It is ridiculous that some TTOC committee members are listed here as moderators yet for whatever reason these same moderators cannot come to some long-term, cooperative agreement with the owners of the TTF for the benefit of all - be they members of the TTF, TTOC, or both.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Rich


Hi Rich

I really don't think many TTF members will have read this post, tucked away where it is. So the results in my view would be meaningless.

Scratch that, I've just looked at the figures (1199)  . I guess people just aren't bothered.

Call me old fashioned, I still like to have a paper magazine 

I do agree with an earlier post. That the TTF's URL should be printed on the hand-out cards, as being black you can't even write the address on the card :? .


----------



## ObiWan

rustyintegrale said:


> I have considered starting another club, yes. But the current result split of this poll suggests that the long-term viability of another club would be in doubt.
> 
> In my view the suggestion by some on here that there should be more cohesion between the TTF and TTOC is a good one. It is ridiculous that some TTOC committee members are listed here as moderators yet for whatever reason these same moderators cannot come to some long-term, cooperative agreement with the owners of the TTF for the benefit of all - be they members of the TTF, TTOC, or both.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Rich


It appears to me you can construct a reasonable arguement, or at least couch questions of others to elicit responses. It is equally apparent that you seem to be very light on answers or ideas of your own?

I am however, unsure if your thread is a vehicle for you to vent your frustrations of being a former committee member or it is a genuine attempt to improve the experience of TT ownership?

If it is the latter then I should hope that your answers would add more to the discussion than your questions?

I suspect though that it is the former?


----------



## rustyintegrale

ObiWan said:


> rustyintegrale said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have considered starting another club, yes. But the current result split of this poll suggests that the long-term viability of another club would be in doubt.
> 
> In my view the suggestion by some on here that there should be more cohesion between the TTF and TTOC is a good one. It is ridiculous that some TTOC committee members are listed here as moderators yet for whatever reason these same moderators cannot come to some long-term, cooperative agreement with the owners of the TTF for the benefit of all - be they members of the TTF, TTOC, or both.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Rich
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It appears to me you can construct a reasonable arguement, or at least couch questions of others to elicit responses. It is equally apparent that you seem to be very light on answers or ideas of your own?
> 
> I am however, unsure if your thread is a vehicle for you to vent your frustrations of being a former committee member or it is a genuine attempt to improve the experience of TT ownership?
> 
> If it is the latter then I should hope that your answers would add more to the discussion than your questions?
> 
> I suspect though that it is the former?
Click to expand...

Well that's an interesting but incorrect observation I'm afraid.

I LEFT the TTOC because I felt I could not give of my best within the constraints set by the TTOC. I am proud of what I did achieve and produce on their behalf and to be honest, once Mark and I had agreed a more acceptable way of working together, I enjoyed it.

As far as 'ideas' are concerned, I offered many post-Donington so that we (the TTOC) might make the 2008 event even better. However the whole process of discussion on a closed forum seems alien to me. Yes I accept that the committee need to discuss plans or make arrangements, but the number of times there were more than two people at any one time on the TTOC admin forum, I can count on one hand.

Cheers

Rich


----------



## ObiWan

I recognise some of the frustrations in your careful choice of words when you refer to the TTOC. It is a fact that working in a voluntary organisation of any kind is nothing like working in a business either public or private.

Voluntary organisations as you experienced are run on a delicate balancing act with the compromising of ego's, ideas, budgeting, time, intellect, initiative............ that is to say nothing of the real world pressures that inevitably come to the fore like families, friends, job security.

The driving force behind any voluntary organisation usually boils down to a handfull (and on many occassions just one) of committed, well intentioned forcefull individuals. The TTOC is no exception.

From my own experience the issue that the TTOC is forever having to balance is not the core of the club, this is as strong and well led as any and better than most, it is simply its ability to generate and retain a large enough group of volunteers to sustain a level of activity and interest to meet the expectations of its membership.

I should hope that the interest that your post is generating might encourage a few more people to volunteer to assist the TTOC and instead of splitting opinions it might unite efforts.


----------



## rustyintegrale

ObiWan said:


> I recognise some of the frustrations in your careful choice of words when you refer to the TTOC. It is a fact that working in a voluntary organisation of any kind is nothing like working in a business either public or private.
> 
> Voluntary organisations as you experienced are run on a delicate balancing act with the compromising of ego's, ideas, budgeting, time, intellect, initiative............ that is to say nothing of the real world pressures that inevitably come to the fore like families, friends, job security.
> 
> The driving force behind any voluntary organisation usually boils down to a handfull (and on many occassions just one) of committed, well intentioned forcefull individuals. The TTOC is no exception.


Given that, would you not agree that if someone volunteers and offers skills the TTOC have been crying out for, it makes sense for the committee to allow that individual to get on with the job without having to have every step judged and passed by every member of the committee?

As you correctly say real world pressures have a real influence on the time any volunteer can devote to supporting a club. So surely that time should be used as effectively as possible.



ObiWan said:


> From my own experience the issue that the TTOC is forever having to balance is not the core of the club, this is as strong and well led as any and better than most, it is simply its ability to generate and retain a large enough group of volunteers to sustain a level of activity and interest to meet the expectations of its membership.


Well even in the time I was on the committee I saw many volunteers come and go. Talking to some suggests that their reasons for leaving were similar to my own.

Forgive me for asking, but what is your involvement and position with the club? Have you been in a position yet where you have even experienced the pressures of deadlines looming whilst getting the committee to agree a path forward?



ObiWan said:


> I should hope that the interest that your post is generating might encourage a few more people to volunteer to assist the TTOC and instead of splitting opinions it might unite efforts.


Well if it does then we're all winners aren't we? 

cheers

Rich


----------



## ObiWan

rustyintegrale said:


> ObiWan said:
> 
> 
> 
> I recognise some of the frustrations in your careful choice of words when you refer to the TTOC. It is a fact that working in a voluntary organisation of any kind is nothing like working in a business either public or private.
> 
> Voluntary organisations as you experienced are run on a delicate balancing act with the compromising of ego's, ideas, budgeting, time, intellect, initiative............ that is to say nothing of the real world pressures that inevitably come to the fore like families, friends, job security.
> 
> The driving force behind any voluntary organisation usually boils down to a handfull (and on many occassions just one) of committed, well intentioned forcefull individuals. The TTOC is no exception.
> 
> 
> 
> Given that, would you not agree that if someone volunteers and offers skills the TTOC have been crying out for, it makes sense for the committee to allow that individual to get on with the job without having to have every step judged and passed by every member of the committee?
> 
> As you correctly say real world pressures have a real influence on the time any volunteer can devote to supporting a club. So surely that time should be used as effectively as possible.
> 
> 
> 
> ObiWan said:
> 
> 
> 
> From my own experience the issue that the TTOC is forever having to balance is not the core of the club, this is as strong and well led as any and better than most, it is simply its ability to generate and retain a large enough group of volunteers to sustain a level of activity and interest to meet the expectations of its membership.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well even in the time I was on the committee I saw many volunteers come and go. Talking to some suggests that their reasons for leaving were similar to my own.
> 
> Forgive me for asking, but what is your involvement and position with the club? Have you been in a position yet where you have even experienced the pressures of deadlines looming whilst getting the committee to agree a path forward?
> 
> 
> 
> ObiWan said:
> 
> 
> 
> I should hope that the interest that your post is generating might encourage a few more people to volunteer to assist the TTOC and instead of splitting opinions it might unite efforts.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well if it does then we're all winners aren't we?
> 
> cheers
> 
> Rich
Click to expand...

In no particular order, my current involvement with the club is none. Due to personal pressures not club failings.

I was previously the editor for absoluTTe and was on the committee for about 2 years . I like yourself experienced the reality that the club is run as a democracy, seeking unanimous support whenever possible to respect its own constitution and the monies invested by its membership.

Whereas I did find it frustrating at times, fundamentaly it is only correct that the club is run prudently. Managing the monies of others is a very big responsibility.

Time is usually the most critical factor, after the financial infrastructure is protected. I do not know and have no wish to know of your specific experiences with the TTOC other than to understand that you must have witnessed that in voluntary work, even more so than in paid work concensus must be the prevailing goal. This fact alone causes most people not to volunteer, but for those that do and have the right ethics and patience, it can be and is a very rewarding investment of time.

It appears that the issue you have is not so much with the club as your own ambitions to contribute to improving the experience of TT ownership and I applaud you for this.

I would like to see somebody with your energy and grasp of the fundamentals to lead the discussion about how to get the profit making private business which is the TT Forum to work togther with a common purpose with the TTOC which is a not for profit club. This I believe is a very positive challenge as both are highly respected by Audi.


----------



## rustyintegrale

ObiWan said:


> It appears that the issue you have is not so much with the club as your own ambitions to contribute to improving the experience of TT ownership and I applaud you for this.


I have no issues with the club especially just the way it appears to be run.

My involvement was in the design of posters, flyers, pop-up displays and a few other bits for EvenTT07. Given that the event happened on a specific day it was impossible for deadlines to be moved. Add to that the time requirements of the various printers so THEY could meet the deadlines and you begin to understand why the pressure was on me to come up with the goods.

The frustration was in getting a proper brief or approvals for design. Either people weren't online or could not provide the correct information. In the meantime those deadlines were getting closer and the pressure on me to 'find' more spare time to devote to producing the goods.

In the real world that means extended overtime, working weekends, all night or whatever it takes to get the job done. In the real world that kind of effort pays handsome rewards...



ObiWan said:


> I would like to see somebody with your energy and grasp of the fundamentals to lead the discussion about how to get the profit making private business which is the TT Forum to work togther with a common purpose with the TTOC which is a not for profit club. This I believe is a very positive challenge as both are highly respected by Audi.


Frankly that should come from the TTOC.

I know that in the past there has been 'friction' between the two parties, but sooner or later that must be allowed to rest and the TTOC and TTF must work together for the good of the membership. I would however be happy to contribute to a fair and open discussion or an exchange of ideas.

I'm not sure how true your comment is that Audi respects both the TTOC and the TTF. I know that Audi UK offer invaluable support to the EvenTT and some committee members have enjoyed other functions at the invitation of Audi. Are these invitations extended to the TTF? I don't know.

I do know however that the TTOC are careful to ensure that it's members are not critical of Audi or its dealers. Understandably this is to prevent the possible retaliation by Audi in the form of loss of privileges or sponsorship.

By contrast the TTF remains an open forum where virtually anything can be said, no matter how derogatory. If Audi still respects the TTF under those conditions (and I see no reason why they shouldn't) then would it be safe to assume that the TTOC could allow it's members the same freedom of speech without fear of retribution?

Many members of the TTOC have had issues with the dealers or Audi UK. Surely they should be free to turn to their club for assistance in dealing with these issues where a satisfactory conclusion has not been reached privately.

But if the club has no teeth why bother?

Cheers

Rich


----------



## ObiWan

Your response just re-enforces my point. Whereas I might not agree with some of your contentions, most notably that it takes two parties to agree but only one to disagree, your intentions properly channelled have the potential to be beneficial for all interested owners.

Maybe you are the champion that the dis-satisfied members have been looking for that can not only identify the as yet undefined barriers that might or might not exist but also get them removed/resolved? Afterall, its not as if the main principles are exactly strangers to each other?

I suspect if you applied yourself to this, in a non emotive professional manner you might be able to identify and resolve the real issues?


----------



## rustyintegrale

ObiWan said:


> Your response just re-enforces my point. Whereas I might not agree with some of your contentions, most notably that it takes two parties to agree but only one to disagree, your intentions properly channelled have the potential to be beneficial for all interested owners.
> 
> Maybe you are the champion that the dis-satisfied members have been looking for that can not only identify the as yet undefined barriers that might or might not exist but also get them removed/resolved? Afterall, its not as if the main principles are exactly strangers to each other?
> 
> I suspect if you applied yourself to this, in a non emotive professional manner you might be able to identify and resolve the real issues?


Hi Barry...

It is Barry isn't it?

Well in a slightly patronising way you seem to express some support for me  For that I applaud you :roll:

Seriously though, I love my TT. I'm committed to making my TT better, and I'm also serious about developing a relationship between the TTOC, the TTF and importantly Audi.

Without the latter's commitment to us, any club or forum is sunk. We need and deserve their cooperation. As ambassadors and enthusiasts of their products we're better than any marketing machine, any advertising campaign or any PR attempt to get the brand in front of the public and to get them to part with their cash.

However Jae, Mark and Clive are keeping a low profile. To be fair to Clive he has emailed me and made the TTOCs position clear.

They will respond.

Eventually.

Cheers

Rich


----------



## Kegman

Again as a new member i can only speak from my own observations,,,, i have no complaints whatsoever of the TTF or TTOC, i have enjoyed it immensely

When i initially joined the TTF, i went on a few South Wales Cruises and really enjoyed it, so much so that i joined the TTOC, Conlechi aka Mark, is a busy self employed person who goes out of his way to make everyone welcome, he could so easily have said " you are not a TTOC member" and therefore are not welcome at the cruise.

In conclusion i would like to thank the TTF and TTOC for helping me feel welcome and long may it reign as the best place for TTs to meet


----------



## ObiWan

rustyintegrale said:


> ObiWan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your response just re-enforces my point. Whereas I might not agree with some of your contentions, most notably that it takes two parties to agree but only one to disagree, your intentions properly channelled have the potential to be beneficial for all interested owners.
> 
> Maybe you are the champion that the dis-satisfied members have been looking for that can not only identify the as yet undefined barriers that might or might not exist but also get them removed/resolved? Afterall, its not as if the main principles are exactly strangers to each other?
> 
> I suspect if you applied yourself to this, in a non emotive professional manner you might be able to identify and resolve the real issues?
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Barry...
> 
> It is Barry isn't it?
> 
> Well in a slightly patronising way you seem to express some support for me  For that I applaud you :roll:
> 
> Seriously though, I love my TT. I'm committed to making my TT better, and I'm also serious about developing a relationship between the TTOC, the TTF and importantly Audi.
> 
> Without the latter's commitment to us, any club or forum is sunk. We need and deserve their cooperation. As ambassadors and enthusiasts of their products we're better than any marketing machine, any advertising campaign or any PR attempt to get the brand in front of the public and to get them to part with their cash.
> 
> However Jae, Mark and Clive are keeping a low profile. To be fair to Clive he has emailed me and made the TTOCs position clear.
> 
> They will respond.
> 
> Eventually.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Rich
Click to expand...

I am sorry you consider some of my responses to be patronising, but I find mis-interpretation of the written form to be a common issue. It is quite often why on forums like this people often get emotional and cause offense without even realising it.

At the risk of repeating myself though I do believe that with a serious commitment on your part you do have the potential to try and solve the imponderable for the benefit of all members, at least in my own opinion.

Persistance is omnipotent on issues like this..................

Good luck


----------



## Leg

Barry, you are circimspencial in your response and your manner is hytropursual. Indeed I would go as far to say I am compuravious and even dungarious in my feelings about your posts which are, without any doubt, carpacious, beravious and barbandicular in their content.

My sincere somunctivations, barulatations and dergentulacies to you.


----------



## rustyintegrale

Leg said:


> Barry, you are circimspencial in your response and your manner is hytropursual. Indeed I would go as far to say I am compuravious and even dungarious in my feelings about your posts which are, without any doubt, carpacious, beravious and barbandicular in their content.
> 
> My sincere somunctivations, barulatations and dergentulacies to you.


 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Can I have that in plain English please? PM me if you wanna keep him guessing... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Cheers

Rich


----------



## Leg

rustyintegrale said:


> Leg said:
> 
> 
> 
> Barry, you are circimspencial in your response and your manner is hytropursual. Indeed I would go as far to say I am compuravious and even dungarious in my feelings about your posts which are, without any doubt, carpacious, beravious and barbandicular in their content.
> 
> My sincere somunctivations, barulatations and dergentulacies to you.
> 
> 
> 
> :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> Can I have that in plain English please? PM me if you wanna keep him guessing... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Rich
Click to expand...

I do believe Barry may understand the sarcasm as well as whom it is directed at and also who I am paraphrasing without me preplastickating the subject or jamootalating my purpose.


----------



## rustyintegrale

Leg said:


> rustyintegrale said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leg said:
> 
> 
> 
> Barry, you are circimspencial in your response and your manner is hytropursual. Indeed I would go as far to say I am compuravious and even dungarious in my feelings about your posts which are, without any doubt, carpacious, beravious and barbandicular in their content.
> 
> My sincere somunctivations, barulatations and dergentulacies to you.
> 
> 
> 
> :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> Can I have that in plain English please? PM me if you wanna keep him guessing... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Rich
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I do believe Barry may understand the sarcasm as well as whom it is directed at and also who I am paraphrasing without me preplastickating the subject or jamootalating my purpose.
Click to expand...

 :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Leg

rustyintegrale said:


> Leg said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rustyintegrale said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leg said:
> 
> 
> 
> Barry, you are circimspencial in your response and your manner is hytropursual. Indeed I would go as far to say I am compuravious and even dungarious in my feelings about your posts which are, without any doubt, carpacious, beravious and barbandicular in their content.
> 
> My sincere somunctivations, barulatations and dergentulacies to you.
> 
> 
> 
> :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> Can I have that in plain English please? PM me if you wanna keep him guessing... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Rich
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I do believe Barry may understand the sarcasm as well as whom it is directed at and also who I am paraphrasing without me preplastickating the subject or jamootalating my purpose.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> :lol: :lol: :lol:
Click to expand...

Havent you left the country yet?


----------



## ObiWan

Leg said:


> Barry, you are circimspencial in your response and your manner is hytropursual. Indeed I would go as far to say I am compuravious and even dungarious in my feelings about your posts which are, without any doubt, carpacious, beravious and barbandicular in their content.
> 
> My sincere somunctivations, barulatations and dergentulacies to you.


Hi Rich, I just knew you would say that................... :lol: :lol: :lol: You really cheered me up this morning...........


----------



## rustyintegrale

No comment from any committee member with clout...

No constructive suggestions either...

My god, the complacency of the TTOC is just unforgiveable.

I shan't be renewing my membership...

cheers

Rich :?


----------



## Rhod_TT

rustyintegrale said:


> No comment from any committee member with clout...
> 
> No constructive suggestions either...
> 
> My god, the complacency of the TTOC is just unforgiveable.
> 
> I shan't be renewing my membership...
> 
> cheers
> 
> Rich :?


I don't think the TTOC committee need to comment openly on this thread. They are aware that a few members feel this way but I'm sure would rather not discuss these issues publically. I'm sure it's not that they are ignoring your comments but are choosing to spend the limited time available tackling your issues rather than just talking about them. In fact haven't they PMd you directly to discuss your queries?

Constructive comments are always welcome but you do seem to be holding back on the one's you might have. I've had a few constructive comments via PMs directly as a result of this thread (so thank you for encoraging that).

I don't think the TTOC are complacent. They're volenteers after all and Christmas is a busy period for anyone.

But in general I think you'll find the more established members/organisers/posters don't have such a high profile on this forum as they might have in the past. Many no longer post as often on daily forum threads (e.g. the Mk1 section) since the same questions keep coming up again and again - wheel PCD, aliens, lowering, camber, uneven tyre wear, pulling to the left, etc. It's all already there lost in previous threads and I personally feel I've commented on enough old threads to feel it uneccessary to say the same thing over and over again. The information is usually there already (but finding it is a little difficult at times with the search engine we have and the FAQs are hardly exhaustive). It's not that the TTOC aren't here on the TTF, it's just that many take a backseat on the daily discussions.


----------



## rustyintegrale

Rhod_TT said:


> rustyintegrale said:
> 
> 
> 
> No comment from any committee member with clout...
> 
> No constructive suggestions either...
> 
> My god, the complacency of the TTOC is just unforgiveable.
> 
> I shan't be renewing my membership...
> 
> cheers
> 
> Rich :?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think the TTOC committee need to comment openly on this thread. They are aware that a few members feel this way but I'm sure would rather not discuss these issues publically. I'm sure it's not that they are ignoring your comments but are choosing to spend the limited time available tackling your issues rather than just talking about them. In fact haven't they PMd you directly to discuss your queries?
> 
> Constructive comments are always welcome but you do seem to be holding back on the one's you might have. I've had a few constructive comments via PMs directly as a result of this thread (so thank you for encoraging that).
> 
> I don't think the TTOC are complacent. They're volenteers after all and Christmas is a busy period for anyone.
> 
> But in general I think you'll find the more established members/organisers/posters don't have such a high profile on this forum as they might have in the past. Many no longer post as often on daily forum threads (e.g. the Mk1 section) since the same questions keep coming up again and again - wheel PCD, aliens, lowering, camber, uneven tyre wear, pulling to the left, etc. It's all already there lost in previous threads and I personally feel I've commented on enough old threads to feel it uneccessary to say the same thing over and over again. The information is usually there already (but finding it is a little difficult at times with the search engine we have and the FAQs are hardly exhaustive). It's not that the TTOC aren't here on the TTF, it's just that many take a backseat on the daily discussions.
Click to expand...

I rest my case.


----------



## FinFerNan

Leg said:


> Barry, you are circimspencial in your response and your manner is hytropursual. Indeed I would go as far to say I am compuravious and even dungarious in my feelings about your posts which are, without any doubt, carpacious, beravious and barbandicular in their content.
> 
> My sincere somunctivations, barulatations and dergentulacies to you.


Simply world class :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Rad TT

I have read this entire post from start to finish.
Having also been on committee, for my sins, I cannot understand the basis the committee works, it isnt all sweetness and light as you know.

I was Rep secretary for a time and felt totally let down by the closed ranks of the committee, now as for the Rep's who do a great job and continue to do so, by doing what, posting their meets on this forum, the TTOC committee does what for the membership, try to organize the annual event, Barry you know too well how difficult we found that to be.

To be honest the Rep's totally run the club with their help and support, but the committee feel that is taken for granted, no rep's, no club, full stop.

I do feel that the e-mail system of working would be so much more cost effective, and as Leg said, more up to date.

Benefits from membership, are pointless and non benefitting to many members here.
The divide between the TTF and TTOC is pretty wide, and that the TTOC is the weaker partner for it, and the bowing to Audi UK for what, I see no benefits in going to Audi what so ever, I went to my branch and they shafted me good and proper, but lets not mention to members the GREAT benefits to be had in going Independant, I had to go past them to look at a another TT outside, looking inside they still have the same amount of brouchers I had left them, well over a year ago now,so not a lot passed on to TT buyers.

Finally, this silence that comes from the TTOC, we take it that all is fine and it blods on as usual, I do feel that the committee really do need to open their eyes to the membership, or it will very quickly slip away.
The start of a club which was e-mail based and within easy contact of the membership would be a winner, to be honest my lastest copy didnt have the Graham touch, for that I will miss it, I wont be renewing my membership


----------



## clived

Rad TT said:


> To be honest the Rep's totally run the club with their help and support, but the committee feel that is taken for granted, no rep's, no club, full stop.


Interesting perspective. Some reps do a great job organising local meets, cruises, discounts with their local dealers etc. etc. Some do nothing, and tend to slip away.

Reps, in general (and there are sometimes some noteable, very willing exceptions) don't do anything in terms of dispatching membership packs, organising advertising, getting the mag printed and distributed, working with merchandise suppliers, dealing with Audi, getting shop orders fulfilled and delivered, dealing with enquiries from members and non members, recrutiting reps, finding new reps etc. "no rep's (sic) no club" is somewhat overstating it, as great a job that many do.

Some people just don't like working as part of a group and feel they acheive more on their own, having full control. That's a perfectly reasonable position, but it isn't how a club, run by committee works.

We've seen the poll here on TT-F regarding the desire for a "new" club and we see membership continue to rise. No sign of membership numbers slipping away. And to suggest that we don't promote independant servicing or promote independants is patently wrong - take a look in this very issue for a big news story on a new independant, and a discount for TTOC members. How is that "bowing to Audi"?

Constructive criticism is welcome. Deliberate distortion of the facts to people's own ends doesn't help anyone....

We do read and care about the useful comments posted here. We chose not to reply as, as most people will know, it's impossible to "win" a forum discussion with someone with an axe to grind, or with people who present their opinion (i.e. "the TTOC doesn't promote independants") as fact, as error-filled as it may be.

Anyone who wants to make any serious suggestions for club improvements please drop me an email or an IM, and I'll be happy to discuss either via email or on the phone.


----------



## rustyintegrale

Tell us about the 'jolly' you and Mark had in Audi's R8s Clive...

Or will we get to read about it in 6 months time?


----------



## rustyintegrale

rustyintegrale said:


> Tell us about the 'jolly' you and Mark had in Audi's R8s Clive...
> 
> Or will we get to read about it in 6 months time?


Come on mate. Or anyone on the committee.

We waited for you to enter the party and now I'm sure you can explain all...


----------



## Rad TT

clived said:


> Rad TT said:
> 
> 
> 
> To be honest the Rep's totally run the club with their help and support, but the committee feel that is taken for granted, no rep's, no club, full stop.
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting perspective. Some reps do a great job organising local meets, cruises, discounts with their local dealers etc. etc. Some do nothing, and tend to slip away.
> 
> Reps, in general (and there are sometimes some noteable, very willing exceptions) don't do anything in terms of dispatching membership packs, organising advertising, getting the mag printed and distributed, working with merchandise suppliers, dealing with Audi, getting shop orders fulfilled and delivered, dealing with enquiries from members and non members, recrutiting reps, finding new reps etc. "no rep's (sic) no club" is somewhat overstating it, as great a job that many do.
> 
> Some people just don't like working as part of a group and feel they acheive more on their own, having full control. That's a perfectly reasonable position, but it isn't how a club, run by committee works.
> 
> We've seen the poll here on TT-F regarding the desire for a "new" club and we see membership continue to rise. No sign of membership numbers slipping away. And to suggest that we don't promote independant servicing or promote independants is patently wrong - take a look in this very issue for a big news story on a new independant, and a discount for TTOC members. How is that "bowing to Audi"?
> 
> Constructive criticism is welcome. Deliberate distortion of the facts to people's own ends doesn't help anyone....
> 
> We do read and care about the useful comments posted here. We chose not to reply as, as most people will know, it's impossible to "win" a forum discussion with someone with an axe to grind, or with people who present their opinion (i.e. "the TTOC doesn't promote independants") as fact, as error-filled as it may be.
> 
> Anyone who wants to make any serious suggestions for club improvements please drop me an email or an IM, and I'll be happy to discuss either via email or on the phone.
Click to expand...

Ok then let's start,membership packs are dispatched as and when clive, and there isnt a timetable for that, so not a biggy, organizing advertising for what, so the mag is paid for by it, and even that isnt fourth coming, I remember Peter having a lot of trouble getting your regular traffic to sign up due to their new involvement with the TTF.

Working with suppliers, so thats a club's job, you want to sell TTOC logo stuff, then thats how its pushed, and that isnt rushing out the door is it.

Dealing with Audi, only when they want you to, to be honest clive, you wait around for them to call you, you have no lever with them.

Dealing with enquiries, good god how many come to you, a dozen a week, they find what they want on here and ask. In the time I was there I got about 10-15 e-mail enquiries...next.

Recruits are found by what means, they may again come on here and say "why haven't we heard from the Rep sec to find out what's going on, 
so I cant be a Rep anymore, no support, does your secretary know his Rep's well, and ALL rep's do a bloody good job, everyone of them, they sell your stuff, support your supplies with orders, they do run a lot more.

So with Audi then, how is putting flyers, cards in all dealership not doing that very thing, forget the dealers as they have forgotten you, and the article is there as a story on a new business, nothing more than that really.
I dont understand the lack of involvement by the TTOC on their only section within the TTf, to hear from a committee member is rare, and just look at the posting, your total is on subjects outside the TTOC sector.

Finally, the art of saying nothing clive is very good, the lastest issue was what, a magazine with content, not a wow factor, and if you remove the content from your Rep's, what do you have left, very little.
Your membership continues to rise, some figures would have been nice to see, as if you look in your sector, more often peeps are saying about the "not happy" with service given, but how many renewal.
Anyone could e-mail you clive, but you wouldn't listen, but the perks are there for some and not others, the TTOC may need to watch, for people may start to see through the smoke screen that it presents.


----------



## rustyintegrale

Again I rest my case.

The committee seem to behave like a private club detached from the members.

Arrogance was never so well demonstrated.

Cheers

rich


----------



## tod

clived said:


> We've seen the poll here on TT-F regarding the desire for a "new" club and we see membership continue to rise. No sign of membership numbers slipping away.


Think you'll find as new members realise that the OC and the forum are seperate then they will not sign up again. I certainly will not as I believed that the two were one in the same (my mistake!).

As a new TT owner I get far more from the forum than I ever would from the OC, don't get me wrong, I love meets and so on but for every day banter and techical advice, there is no substitute for this forum.

Just my opinion


----------



## rustyintegrale

tod said:


> clived said:
> 
> 
> 
> We've seen the poll here on TT-F regarding the desire for a "new" club and we see membership continue to rise. No sign of membership numbers slipping away.
> 
> 
> 
> Think you'll find as new members realise that the OC and the forum are seperate then they will not sign up again. I certainly will not as I believed that the two were one in the same (my mistake!).
> 
> As a new TT owner I get far more from the forum than I ever would from the OC, don't get me wrong, I love meets and so on but for every day banter and techical advice, there is no substitute for this forum.
> 
> Just my opinion
Click to expand...

Are you listening Clive?

I know Mark doesn't...


----------



## clived

rustyintegrale said:


> Again I rest my case.
> 
> The committee seem to behave like a private club detached from the members.
> 
> Arrogance was never so well demonstrated.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> rich


Rich, just because you were sat at home on a Friday night, that doesn't give you the right to assume that the reason I did't reply straight away was arrogance. We were out for the night, In the real world  Another example of someone twisting reality to fit their view of the situation.

Rad, you've demonstrated very well that you really have no idea about the effort that goes into running the club, all of which takes place in the time between day jobs, family, health, sleep.... You have had no involvement or experience of any of the items above you've posted on, so it's all speculation on your part. I on the other hand have had direct involvement with all of them at some point. Those people here that have met me can make up their own mind as to if they think I'm lying or you're speculating. Nothing further either of us can say can influence people on that. Regarding reps, we've currently got a great group of people, but like the committee, they are human and no-one is perfect. Over the life of he club, we've had reps (and committee!) who signed up, did nothing whatsoever, and then were never heard from again - your suggestion that reps are 100% perfect just doesn't stand up. We seem to be straight into that "axe to grind" dimension I mentioned.

Rich, regarding the R8s, Mark and I had a meeting at Audi to discuss the various ways we might be able to do stuff together in the coming year to create value for members. They offered us a spin in the R8, we accepted - what would you have done? Not exactly a jolly though as a) we both had to take the day of work to travel to and attend the meeting and b) I caught the front bumper of my RS4 on the high kerb inside Audi HQ - so the day out cost me ovr Â£500 for a new bumper. I was anything but jolly :twisted:

Here's the bottom line, how it is and how it's always been. The club has always welcomed anyone who wants to volunteer their time and effort in running the club and that's as true now as ever. Inevitably, as in all human endeavours, sometimes things don't work out - people don't get along, folks have different ideas, people would like to see things done dfferently - you can't please all the people all the time. But we do our best with the resources available. On the whole, most people think they get enough from the club to make it worthwhile, people join, they get involved, they renew, they enjoy it for what it is, warts and all. A few people don't like it - some of those get involved to make it better, some provide constructive input from the sidelines, and some set themselves up as snipers, taking pot shots for their own gratification from a comfortable distance.

For those who feel the club isn't for them, that's fine - nothing is right for everyone. But that doesn't mean you have to try to put a dampener on it for everyone, or take up loads of time (that we don't really have) taking dig after dig - it doesn't acheive anything, other than spoiling my day a bit 

(Oh, I'm off out for the day now Rich, ok? If you want a dialogue, phone me. ;-))


----------



## tod

clived said:


> For those who feel the club isn't for them, that's fine - nothing is right for everyone. But that doesn't mean you have to try to put a dampener on it for everyone, or take up loads of time (that we don't really have) taking dig after dig - it doesn't acheive anything, other than spoiling my day a bit


I'm not trying to put a damper on anything, just voicing my opinion on this forum which as far as I know has nothing to do with the OC anyhoo :wink:

If the 2 were combined then I would pay my membership year in year out without a quibble 

My only real gripe is that I paid to join for a year based on a few folk pointing out on the forum that signing up to the OC was the right thing to do, this I did as I thought the cash would go towards help with the running of the forum as well (the main benifit IMO) only to find out later there is no crossover at all.

Have a nice day 8)


----------



## Rad TT

Just thinking about it for a moment,
I think the idea of a monthly e-mail news letter is a very good idea indeed.
Also let the membership know that the TTOC isn't connected to this forum in any way ,shape or form, Jae has let you have space on here because of history, but we all know that this forum is self supporting, raising the question........?
What does the TTOC do in terms of supporting this forum, its mods. are mostly TTOC for what reason exactly???
Another question, what would the membership do if you were honest with them about this spare time stuff, if anyone has anything to say against the TTOC it's, but we all run it in our spare time, so, thats not an excuse to hide behind, its a club, where according to you lot, numbers rising, they pay money to you for a service, a membership, not a charity.

I remember trying to get a Rep's meeting together just so we could all sit and talk, get to know one another.
No...because that wasn't the way we did things, just a get together, no secrets told, but the committee felt that should take place on the night before the annual event, just so we could be there as dog's bodies for the event.
To the rep's, guys I tried bloody hard on loads of issues, but stone walled every time, the committee didn't want to go outside of the chair and vice chairs thinking.
Please guys honor us mere mortals with a reply, but, sorry you need to meet first dont you so you say the same boring thing.
You dont want voluntees to help run the club, thats NO you dont, what you want is people who have to think the same as you, thats it.
Dont have any ideas guys cause this lot on the committee dont like it.
No new thinking, then, no new way forward for the TTOC... :? 
Finally, remember this all, next time you renew your membership you will get some left overs from Audi UK in your pack as a thank you, while others get some very nice perks given to them because of their title. :roll:


----------



## Rad TT

Clive, 
A little note to you, with all the committee stuff going on, we didn't ever meet, as you were always too busy.
Now I do know from your little e-mails and PM's that your the kind of chap who likes to belittle people.
Now I did find out and put some ideas forward in the time I was there, never one from you, on all the committee section replies, your were always negative, always!! dress it as you like.
I can demonstrate a lot of things Clive, really I can, please enjoy this.
But also make sure what you spout tallies up, your a vice chair, and for what I read and that was five days solid of posts on what you rejected time and time again, you never come up with one clear self supporting idea out of Clive's head, not one, but of course it's safe to say I know nothing of this, dont be a coward Clive.
So, the Rep's who spend their time on here sorting out meets, trips, events, days out, thats the club Clive , not you sitting there as you do missing the next committee meeting for opinion, cause you dont have any at all.
Reading about the R8, so you drive into the Audi UK carpark and hit your bumper, your fault , or is that someone else's for putting a kerb stone too high for you to see, its always the big sob story Clive, hide behind, we work, we have family, we have a life, so these people pay for a club, not some kitchen effort as and when, dont try and be something your not.

The problem is with the TTOC, it's run undercover,meaning that you run a non profit club, but thats not entirely right is it Clive, you do hold funds from memberships to go towards annual events, but the problem here is, do you increase membership fees to cover the fact that printing is now outside the TTOC, and lose members because of the slack way the club is run and that the members will find out that the TTOC and TTF isnt connected, funded, Jae has got it spot on, funded and well supported and a real good source of information.
When has the TTOC EVER done the same in content for it's members.
I have no axe to grind Clive, you just cant stand the thought that people out there have different views to you, and that upsets you  
Remember, this, and other posts about the TTOC will not go away, so get ready for 2008, as for snipers out for pot shots, Oh no, clive you dont know me at all, if I wanted I would go for the head shot, but if I wanted, so your a lucky man today...


----------



## rustyintegrale

clived said:


> Rich, just because you were sat at home on a Friday night, that doesn't give you the right to assume that the reason I did't reply straight away was arrogance. We were out for the night, In the real world  Another example of someone twisting reality to fit their view of the situation.


Clive you posted at 8.28 on Friday January 4th and my initial reply was 5 minutes later.

I guessed (wrongly) you might've hung around for a few minutes to see if there was any response. I apologise for making this rash assumption but since this was your first contribution to a very long thread, and since you are Vice-Chairman of the TTOC, I thought it might've held some level of importance to you.

It was nothing to do with 'twisting reality'. Just me making an incorrect assumption. Nevertheless I hope you enjoyed your evening out.



clived said:


> Rich, regarding the R8s, Mark and I had a meeting at Audi to discuss the various ways we might be able to do stuff together in the coming year to create value for members. They offered us a spin in the R8, we accepted - what would you have done? Not exactly a jolly though as a) we both had to take the day of work to travel to and attend the meeting and b) I caught the front bumper of my RS4 on the high kerb inside Audi HQ - so the day out cost me ovr Â£500 for a new bumper. I was anything but jolly :twisted:


Yes Clive, of course I would've accepted. But since it is such a rare opportunity and because it was offered through your association with the TTOC, it might've been generous of you to share your experiences of it with the membership. A post here would've been nice, especially with some photographs. Or were you intending to write a piece for Absolutte? :roll:

I'm sorry to hear of the damage to your car by the way, but hey, that's what insurance is for and it's a good job the Audi guy so generous with the keys didn't see you do it. He might have had second thoughts about letting you loose with the R8...



clived said:


> For those who feel the club isn't for them, that's fine - nothing is right for everyone. But that doesn't mean you have to try to put a dampener on it for everyone, or take up loads of time (that we don't really have) taking dig after dig - it doesn't acheive anything, other than spoiling my day a bit


I joined the club because I assumed (wrongly, again) that it was joined at the hip with the Forum. In fact I think shortly after my first post here, 'Yellow' came along and suggested it. I also noted that the club was looking for a designer. Because I wanted to contribute something, I volunteered my services and worked hard to produce all the posters, flyers, banners, flags and other material for EvenTT07. That process along with a fixed deadline meant fast work with minimal hold-ups.

All along the way the committee were slow with information, briefs, copy etc, etc but still the deadline was not going to budge. And then you all wanted to sit like judge and jury to 'pass' every piece of design. If you're qualified to judge design then you go ahead and produce it!

Don't ask someone to volunteer skills and then put every hurdle down you can to prevent the job being done. This is precisely why the committee as it exists does not work. Yes everyone is a volunteer and yes we all have other lives, wives, girlfriends etc etc but that is exactly why you need to allow the person given a task to get on with it. You don't hire a solicitor to then ignore his advice...

So it's not about 'digging' Clive it's about improving. Making everyones lives easier. Making volunteering more rewarding...



clived said:


> (Oh, I'm off out for the day now Rich, ok? If you want a dialogue, phone me. ;-))


Clive I can't imagine how any phone conversation with you would go right now. You're plainly as passionate about this as I am. But I think the members deserve to see, hear and read what goes on in their club. The committee's methods of hiding away on a secret discussion board or having private conversations does not exactly allow that transparency.

And the TTOC is for ALL it's members - not just those who seem to distance themselves from the hard core.

I hope you have a good day out Clive. I'm now working to meet another deadline... :evil:

cheers

rich


----------



## clived

*Rich*, I do understand your frustration regarding working as part of a committee. The design stuff you did was great and I'm sure you could have felt more productive and less frustrated given totally free reign to do what you wanted, as with your commercial work. But the TTOC isn't a commercial organisation, and that's just not how the club works. Those of us in the club who work for major commercial organisations often have to remind ourselves that as frustrating as it might be, we can't expect quite the same level of service or organisational efficiency as we might find at work. You felt that you couldn't work in that environment, so exercised your right to quit - sad for us given your skills, but no hard feelings. You're right that you don't hire a solicitor and then ignore his advice, but that's the point about the voluntary committee - we don't hire anyone onto it.

I donâ€™t agree that the committee operates in secrecy. Things get done by people talking to each other, information being presented, decisions being made. In years gone by a club of any description would have been run by its â€œexecutivesâ€ getting together to discuss things â€" conversations that the members wouldnâ€™t be present at or party to. We use more modern means of email and forum threads. That doesnâ€™t mean weâ€™re operating in camera, or that there is some big conspiracy going on. You were frustrated by the delays and confusion caused by decision by committee â€" decisions and discussions involving all the membership would be both impractical (how do we reach *all* the membership to discuss operational questions?) and crippling from a time perspective. We have annual committee elections and the membership vote in a committee to do the stuff they donâ€™t have the time or interest to participate in. It isnâ€™t a perfect executive machine. Itâ€™s a car club. What would be your approach to resolve this and involve hundreds of members more closely in decisions? You didnâ€™t raise â€œsecrecyâ€ as an issue when your were a committee member.

It was 7:28 when I posted by the way, not 8:28 (I was eating dinner by then!) - maybe your timezone is out in the control panel? I didn't wait around for 2 minutes, let alone an hour as I was already late, having stopped to write a reply.... Oh, and not an insurance job - only a few pounds over my excess, so no point  Given the number of posts regarding R8 test drives already on the forum I'm not sure that me posting "yep, it's awesome" would have added much value!

I'm sure we'd have an entirely interesting and reasonable conversation - I don't sense that either of us are feeling unreasonable and based on our experience the time I got hold of you on the phone, I suspect we're both capable of a productive conversation 

*Gordon*, I really don't have any problem with people having different ideas to me.

That doesn't mean I'll standby and *blindly support a financially risky (for the club) idea a 2nd time round. It isn't our money to play fast and loose with.* The fact that we weren't ultimately able to come up with a sound business case for your calendar idea doesn't make me closed to ideas, nor does it make it my responsibility to come up with a "positive idea" to make what you were trying to achieve viable. Despite the passion and time you put into it and the effort Peter and others put into trying to find ways to subsidise it, given we'd been through making a loss on a calendar once, I for one felt it would have been irresponsible to commit to over Â£1500 of expense without sufficient sponsorship or realistic sales hopes to at least cover the costs. You've chosen to interpret my caution as some sort of personal affront, which I can assure you it wasn't. The only other example I can find of us not agreeing is when you were having a serious disagreement with a rep of the time, and a couple of us were playing devil's advocate for his position. Once again, it seems you took anything other than unblinking agreement with you very personally.

You bought a lot of passion to the Rep Sec role, but ultimately you also seemed unhappy working as part of a committee and quit, and decided not to return when asked if you'd do so. Again, a real shame given the effort you were putting in, but being on the committee requires both time and energy AND desire and ability to work in what we'd all agree can be a difficult environment 

As for the rest of your post: You say we're worrying about increased costs now printing is outside the TTOC? Not sure what your point is here as printing has ALWAYS been carried out outside the TTOC. You suggest that we've promoted the TTOC and TT-F to be one and the same and we're now being "found out". This is also incorrect - please show me where we've ever been proponents of that idea? Your distaste at the gifts we send out when Audi UK or Audi Driver have given us stuff - sorry they weren't to your liking, but I don't think we'll be depriving everyone else of them based on your opinion - in general people seem very pleased when they receive their pack, judging by posts here. Yes, in the process of running the club we get to have some fun, but anyone is able to become part of that if they have the time and energy.

As ever, we're in agreement that the current reps are doing a good job organising "meets, trips, events, days out" as you put it, but you seem very reluctant to concede that anyone on the committee actually does anything - How do you think the annual event comes together? Just a couple of phone calls the day before the event or a little more effort as a group? How do you think hundreds of magazines get from the printers, into envelopes and into the post - the absoluTTe fairies sit there for hours doing it, or that some of us give up a day to drive to a central location, spend hours doing the job and then drive home at the end of the day? How do you think stuff like the news stories come together - we just let people send us press releases and we post up their stuff or we go and visit them to try to establish they'll be offering a decent level of service to members and talk about discounts...? Interesting that you were also so dismissive of the effort involved in the Rep Sec role in your previous post, given you found it such a challenge.

You claim the club is *not* run "Not for profit"?, which technically must mean that the committee, or someone, is making a profit. In reality another "sob story" for you I'm afraid as quite the reverse is true - we don't claim any petrol or travel expenses, so a committee meeting or magazine session costs me Â£45 in fuel for example. Conversely, you compare the TTOC to the TT-F, putting TT-F up as a perfect model. Jae runs the TT-F as a commercial, profit making, entity under his company Cogbox. Nothing wrong with that, but the commercial model, the outputs produced and effort required to run the two entities are quite different and only one of us is making a profit. But each model is the right one to support the respective entity.

Of course, you're quite right, we do hold funds, to cover the cost of magazines to be produced to meet the commitment to current members for the length of their membership and to underwrite the national event, which has up-front costs (deposits etc.) As you seem to think that "holding funds" is wrong, what is your suggestion for running the club, ensuring we can meet all commitments whilst keeping the bank balance around zero?

Regarding rep meetings, you're right, one was never successfully organised whilst you were rep sec. That doesn't support your logic that we somehow don't want them - I remember a very full one at Gaydon when you weren't rep sec, so it's certainly not something we've suppressed somehow or ever have reason to want to prevent, or that are impossible to organise given enough effort. The idea of having it prior to the AGM, which you'd think a number of reps might wish to attend (as they did last year) was to maximise the chance of getting a large number of attendees, as reps have always said, understandably given the distance many of them would have to travel, that attending multiple meetings during the year is problematic. As for looking for help at the national event, damn right we do - all the committee put a lot of effort in, so help from reps is always welcome, essential in fact (and worked really well at Donington I thought).

Yep, we never met, not sure how many committee meeting you made it to, but obviously I maybe missed the one you made it to in person. I was there at the one you managed to join via VoIP and a whole load of others that you must have been equally too busy to attend I guess.

You ask why are some TTOC committee members are also mods - I guess it must be becuase we just can't get enough of thankless tasks and situations where it is impossible to please everyone, where a subset of deliberately belligerent faceless typists make life as difficult as possible  More seriously, ask Jae, he "appoints" mods. (Wow, maybe the "beef" that some not-in-the-know $hit-stirrers often like to suggest exists between TT-F and the TTOC doesn't actually exist at all, and we all get on very well thank you, on the rare occassions we get to interact!). What's your issue with TTOC committee folks also being the people that Jae has asked to help run the forum, and them agreeing to do so? Maybe I should be happy you seem to be questioning Jae's motives too...? You also ask how TTOC supports TT-F - what do you suggest? In what way do you think the not-for-profit club (assuming you'll acquiesce on that point?) should support Jae's profit margin? You also ask "When has the TTOC EVER done the same [as TT-F] in content for it's members". You seem to miss the point that Jae has provided an infrastructure, which TT owners (including TTOC committee members) have been populating with information for approaching 8 years now (in fact, didn't you make the point earlier in this thread that I myself tended to post in other sections... you canâ€™t have it both ways :roll. What would be the value in the TTOC attempting to replicate that, as you seem to suggest we should do / should have done? What we do "produce", as you know, is local and national meetings, a rep infrastructure, a magazine which presents different information in a different format to a different audience (don't assume that every TTOC member also lives on TT-F), discounts for members at various places and some support from Audi (those gifts you don't like, or the TT element of the Audi Driving Experience at the annual event for example). All of this is complementary to what TT-F has to offer. By its nature TT-F is intangible, we look to provide something more tangible. Both have value. If you donâ€™t think one or the other has value _for you_ you can choose to not participate.

And finally, on the "run in our spare time" issue, we make this absolutely clear in the description of the membership item in the store, so no-one joins the club without knowing what they are getting into and the basis on which the club is run. Another complete fallacy from you to suggest that weâ€™re not completely honest about it and that there is an opportunity for members to "find out" now. We don't hide behind it; we make it clear up front.

I hope Iâ€™ve provided some clarification of the points you've presented as facts and been able to put another side to your speculation and conjecture regarding motivations - believe me, you don't know what makes me tick better than I do. If you consider my responses "belittling", perhaps you'd like to consider giving me less opportunity to correct your statements _(and yes, that is a joke)_. In all seriousness this has taken some time to write. I'm really happy to discuss reasonable points that aren't full of speculation and apocrophal statements (such as the reasonable discussion Rich has posted) but it's a real pain to have to deal with opinionated, fact free conjecture and distorted history, just to avoid claims of not being interested. Happy to discuss anything factual you want to discuss Gordon, but please don't be surprised if I don't reply to any more misrepresentations or further personal comments. End of the day, it's just a club, not life and death, so getting too worked up seems pointless to me.

*Tod*, my comment wasn't about your post 

Clive


----------



## tod

clived said:


> *Tod*, my comment wasn't about your post
> 
> Clive


Christ, I got off lucky with one sentence :wink:

No worries


----------



## ElegantSpoon.Co.Uk

I think the TTOC is good but a few improvements might make people happier.

The idea of a monthly newsletter is a good one and to expand on this the news letter could include how to's and maybe simple mini features about members cars.

The previous owners club I was a member of did this and it worked really well  Basically people could submit pictures of their car accompanied by a mini write up or mod list and then the owners club but it together in a PDF.

Doing that allows people to see each others cars and mods, plus it also means the members do the writing.

Could be an idea


----------



## clived

Seems like there is some interest in the monthly newsletter idea. We'd need to balance content with the magazine (we've got a committment to hundreds of people who have signed up for 1, 2 or 3 years on the basis they'll be sent a mag, so we can't just ditch it) so we'd need new content, but if someone is willing to take on driving the content, editing and getting the thing sent out (we'd need to manage opt in / opt out options too) then it could work - I can see how it could help us all feel more in touch with the club. Anyone got the right experience to take this on?


----------



## caney

anyway :roll: Where's my magazine?


----------



## rustyintegrale

clived said:


> *Rich*, I do understand your frustration regarding working as part of a committee. The design stuff you did was great and I'm sure you could have felt more productive and less frustrated given totally free reign to do what you wanted, as with your commercial work. But the TTOC isn't a commercial organisation, and that's just not how the club works.


Thank you for the compliments, they're much appreciated. However just to clear up a few things... I don't expect or get free reign in my commercial work nor did I expect it from the TTOC. In my business the process works when the client gives a proper brief where he outlines what he wants and details any goals that must be achieved and any target audience reached. In fact the more information given, the better. This enables the designer to tailor-make his proposals to meet all the briefing requirements and hopefully win the client over.

The frustration occurs when the client either won't give a brief because he doesn't know how or he is unable to because HE hasn't got the information. This frustration is compounded when there is a deadline for the finished product to be delivered and a job is passed back and forth between client and designer for changes, then back and forth between client and client's boss or colleagues and more changes added, then back and forth between client and designer before the whole process is repeated over and over again. This, when the deadline still doesn't move...

Apart from the frustration, all this is fine and acceptable in the commercial world because I get paid for every amendment and every change. If I work late or at weekends and the deadline still cannot be met, it is either the account manager's or the client's fault that firstly, the job cannot be delivered and secondly that the invoice is way over the quoted price. You can imagine how wasteful that is in terms of time and money.

As a volunteer offering to provide this service to the TTOC there is NO financial compensation if the job goes back and forth for amendments. There is NO satisfaction if the job goes back and forth for changes because there is no brief. There is NO pleasure to be gained if a proposed design is so watered-down as to bear little resemblance to the original proposal. But there IS a lot of volunteer time wasted and there IS an awful lot of frustration especially when a deadline looms and members of the committee are unavailable to 'sign off a job'.

You and every committee member who has ever responded to posts such as these has repeatedly hammered home how 'this is a club', 'we are all volunteers', 'we all have families' and 'we all have jobs'. But you seem quite prepared to ignore that when you ask your 'volunteers' to provide services to the club.

I spent a hell of a lot of time doing TTOC work and because I refused to compromise on the quality, more often than not it was at the expense of commercial work. That situation was untenable for me and despite my protestations the committee seemed unable to see my viewpoint. I had no choice but to resign. Had you felt able to review working methods then perhaps things may have been different, but reading the committee board that same frustration seemed to run through every vein of committee business and never was there any attempt or discussion to change that process for the better.

I don't know how other committee members feel but I do know how others who have left feel. The common denominator seems to be the slow and painful process of getting stuff done in the TTOC.

Incidentally Clive, what is your role? Aside from the obvious of stepping in to Mark's shoes when he is absent, what exactly do you personally do and what expertise do you offer the club? Sorry, but I've never known... Come to think of it, the same could be said of Mark...



clived said:


> Those of us in the club who work for major commercial organisations often have to remind ourselves that as frustrating as it might be, we can't expect quite the same level of service or organisational efficiency as we might find at work.


On the contrary, an organisation as small as the TTOC run by volunteers with little spare time, should find it in their best interests to be a lot more economical and efficient with the time they devote to the club.

No offence Clive, but there's a lot of 'hiding' done in big organisations too and I see that rubbing off in the TTOC.



clived said:


> You're right that you don't hire a solicitor and then ignore his advice, but that's the point about the voluntary committee - we don't hire anyone onto it.


Well in that case you shouldn't ignore volunteered advice from those who would normally charge for it either.



clived said:


> I donâ€™t agree that the committee operates in secrecy. Things get done by people talking to each other, information being presented, decisions being made. In years gone by a club of any description would have been run by its â€œexecutivesâ€ getting together to discuss things â€" conversations that the members wouldnâ€™t be present at or party to. We use more modern means of email and forum threads. That doesnâ€™t mean weâ€™re operating in camera, or that there is some big conspiracy going on. You were frustrated by the delays and confusion caused by decision by committee â€" decisions and discussions involving all the membership would be both impractical (how do we reach *all* the membership to discuss operational questions?) and crippling from a time perspective. We have annual committee elections and the membership vote in a committee to do the stuff they donâ€™t have the time or interest to participate in. It isnâ€™t a perfect executive machine. Itâ€™s a car club. What would be your approach to resolve this and involve hundreds of members more closely in decisions? You didnâ€™t raise â€œsecrecyâ€ as an issue when your were a committee member.


Okay, fair point. 'Secrecy' is the wrong word. The committee is voted there to serve the membership of the club. And a volunteer is there to serve the committee and also the club.

If you understand the concept that involving the whole membership in decisions would be 'impractical', why can't you grasp the same concept when it comes to allocating a task to someone who has volunteered to do it?

In my view if that person has the skills to perform a function he should be allowed the freedom to do it as efficiently as possible. Like I've said before, I'm no accountant. I could not do the Treasurer's job but I would assume that Karoly has the necessary skills and as long as his figures all stack up, I'd be happy to leave him to it.



clived said:


> It was 7:28 when I posted by the way, not 8:28 (I was eating dinner by then!) - maybe your timezone is out in the control panel? I didn't wait around for 2 minutes, let alone an hour as I was already late, having stopped to write a reply....


Nope, my control panel and time settings are fine, The forum clock is one hour in advance. It was just a few minutes between your post and mine...



clived said:


> Given the number of posts regarding R8 test drives already on the forum I'm not sure that me posting "yep, it's awesome" would have added much value!


Clive your writing skills extend beyond that I'm sure! But the point is it would have proven your openness and honesty to the membership. Not that I'm suggesting that it is in question, but when rumours circulate about the Chairman and Vice-Chairman being given free reign with an R8 by Audi UK and there are no posts, reports, or stories on the Forum or in Absolutte, it does suggest that perhaps you're not as open as you should be... and are there any other TTOC 'perks' you've both enjoyed that we should be made aware of...



clived said:


> I'm sure we'd have an entirely interesting and reasonable conversation - I don't sense that either of us are feeling unreasonable and based on our experience the time I got hold of you on the phone, I suspect we're both capable of a productive conversation


I agree Clive. I've never met you so I have no idea what you're like to deal with. However if we can reach a point where we can have serious discussion with a view to change, then I'd be more than willing for a face-to-face meeting together with any other members who feel as passionate as I about a need for change.

Cheers

Rich


----------



## clived

rustyintegrale said:


> ...and despite my protestations the committee seemed unable to see my viewpoint. I had no choice but to resign. Had you felt able to review working methods then perhaps things may have been different..
> ...If you understand the concept that involving the whole membership in decisions would be 'impractical', why can't you grasp the same concept when it comes to allocating a task to someone who has volunteered...
> ...In my view if that person has the skills to perform a function he should be allowed the freedom to do it as efficiently as possible...


I hope you don't mind that I've edited down to just some of the key points.... all of which I actually agree with (pretty much) you might be surprised to hear. The only thing I'd say is that it isn't that we couldn't see your viewpoint, more that our way of working has tended to be more evolutionary - kind of a RAD approach for those in IT - probably because, particularly around design, we didn't have those skills, so someone would mock something up, we'd discuss it as a group to refine the idea... and so on round the loop till we reached something we were happy with. This might work ok for the process of choosing a national event venue or picking a t-shirt supplier, but I do totally understand how it's not an approach that creates a very efficient design process or an at all happy designer. :?



rustyintegrale said:


> clived said:
> 
> 
> 
> Those of us in the club who work for major commercial organisations often have to remind ourselves that as frustrating as it might be, we can't expect quite the same level of service or organisational efficiency as we might find at work.
> 
> 
> 
> On the contrary, an organisation as small as the TTOC run by volunteers with little spare time, should find it in their best interests to be a lot more economical and efficient with the time they devote to the club.
Click to expand...

Sure, it's in our best interests. I didn't say we deliberately went out of our way to be inefficient - but the committee consists of people from various backgrounds, with different skills, experience and approaches, with high levels of enthusiasm being the thing that binds us together. The upshot of that is that we can't expect everyone to work in the same way, or to work at the sort of level of speed and productivity they'd give to their bill-paying day job - involvement in the club is always going to be a 2nd priority to paying the bills, although there are obvious peaks (build up to the annual event for example) where people will make sure they have sufficient time by taking holiday etc.



rustyintegrale said:


> clived said:
> 
> 
> 
> Given the number of posts regarding R8 test drives already on the forum I'm not sure that me posting "yep, it's awesome" would have added much value!
> 
> 
> 
> Clive your writing skills extend beyond that I'm sure! But the point is it would have proven your openness and honesty to the membership. Not that I'm suggesting that it is in question, but when rumours circulate about the Chairman and Vice-Chairman being given free reign with an R8 by Audi UK and there are no posts, reports, or stories on the Forum or in Absolutte, it does suggest that perhaps you're not as open as you should be... and are there any other TTOC 'perks' you've both enjoyed that we should be made aware of...
Click to expand...

They gave us a cup of coffee AND a biscuit. And they gave us a cup of coffee AND a biscuit last time we were there too 



rustyintegrale said:


> Incidentally Clive, what is your role? Aside from the obvious of stepping in to Mark's shoes when he is absent, what exactly do you personally do and what expertise do you offer the club? Sorry, but I've never known...


Bit of background: Prior to becoming VC, I was events sec, organising the Brooklands annual event. Through my extensive range of modification work on both the TT and the RS4, and direct club-oriented contact, I've come into contact with, and built relationships with, many of the tuning and servicing houses in the UK. In my day job I'm a sales and marketing professional. I think pretty differently to our Chairman, and it was my habit of questioning, in a constructive manner, the rationale for the decisions that were made in the club that got me asked to be VC. I like to think I can write reasonable English. So... for the club, I do the things which best leverage my experience and abilities. I'm responsible for our relationships with "partners" (excluding merchandise suppliers) - so I'd be the primary contact Autometrix (for Audi Driver / ADI, GTI International, sourcing gifts that Gordon doesn't like), the tuning houses (APS, VAGtech, TT Shop etc. etc. for advertising in absoluTTe, discounts, participation in track days and other events), I'd be the person most likely to source and negotiate with non merchandise suppliers (absoluTTe cover CDs for example), I'd deal with all inbound enquiries from organisations trying to get us to promote their latest "special offer" on our website and Iâ€™d be the person most likely to go and visit a new supplier to establish if they are news worthy â€" and create the story (the APS and Russell Automotive news stories for example). I'd deal with a proportion of the inbound email queries that we get from members / potential members / shop customers, I'd get involved in the things we have to do in teams - I took day out to receive the latest magazine for example and meet up with Mark & Lou to get them stuffed, labelled, stamped and to the sorting office, I'd use what is hopefully the benefit of my several years being involved in the club and my work experience to advise and assist other committee members in the larger tasks, such as organising the annual event or revising our merchandise range (and I organised the free photo shoot for the current merchandise pictures) and I'd work with Mark in managing our relationship with Audi, to maximise their support for us (more gifts Gordon doesn't like, their involvement in events, eating their biscuits  ). Peter had taken on some of the "partner" relationship stuff (particularly discounts and event involvement etc.) but now he's moved on I've picked that back up and will be driving our marketing strategy, once we feel with have a infrastructure in place that could cope with a large rise in member numbers. And of course I do "the obvious". Doubtless there is some other stuff which I canâ€™t remember (and I really want to post this and leave the office!) but to be honest thatâ€™s enough to keep me busy. A lot of that isnâ€™t very special or sexy, but someone has to do it, and some of it absolutely leverages my skills, experience and relationships.

Oh, Caney.... I don't know  Are you a current member? If you are, it was sent, so if it's not turned up by now, it's probably lost, not stuck in the Christmas post (although saying that our Christmas card from my parents arrived just yesterday....!).

Clive


----------



## scoTTy

Is that all you do and you think that justifies free coffee AND biscuits? :roll:

I can see why people think you're over rewarded for your small amount of contribution. :wink:


----------



## KenTT

scoTTy said:


> Is that all you do and you think that justifies free coffee AND biscuits? :roll:
> 
> I can see why people think you're over rewarded for your small amount of contribution. :wink:


Could this be Clive :?:


----------



## clived

KenTT said:


> scoTTy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is that all you do and you think that justifies free coffee AND biscuits? :roll:
> 
> I can see why people think you're over rewarded for your small amount of contribution. :wink:
> 
> 
> 
> Could this be Clive :?:
Click to expand...

I see you found a photo before I'd shaved off my Christmas beard!


----------



## rustyintegrale

clived said:


> They gave us a cup of coffee AND a biscuit. And they gave us a cup of coffee AND a biscuit last time we were there too
> Clive


Now that just confirms my point. I didn't read about that on the forum OR in Absolutte... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Well Clive it seems like we may be singing from vaguely the same song sheet. I think at the very least it has been a constructive exercise.

Where do we go now? I've no doubt this has been 'discusssed' on the committee board! :lol:

Cheers

Rich


----------



## NuTTy

Rather that repeat a number of other posts.

I've also been on the committee, and found the constraints and limitations imposed by the 'hierarchy' completely restrictive.

The committe had a completely poor attitude towards the Reps and I could not live with this attitute - I resigned. If you are a rep now do you feel valued? Are you still invited to meetings as an after-thought?

Have a look at the write-up of the launch in Germany of the mk2. It was a closed, by invitation only event - but who was there?

Having read the whole of this thread, the best suggestion and improvement that could be made would be to look at the structure.

The election of new blood through a postal ballot system would be fairer. The committe has to stem the void, it needs to retain commited volunteers, make them feel part of the club and value their contribution.

Clive does a good job, he's the only senior member of the TTOC who has had the balls to contribute. Without Clive, to temper egos and arrogance - the club would have folded years ago.


----------



## rustyintegrale

It would be good to hear from Mark.

He's conspicuous by his absence... :roll:

Cheers

Rich


----------



## PaulTT

A quick check of the votes 73% - no. Very conclusive I would say :!:

There seems to be a collection of embittered ex-committee on this thread, with a whole load of dirty washing to air.

To redress the balance, I had a position for 12-months on the committee and found everyone to be working really hard, and trying to push the club forward to the benefit of the members. I've been involved with 3 or 4 other car clubs and the TTOC is unrivalled in terms of it's friendliness.

To target Mark (and include Lou) is really unfair. They put a huge amount of effort into the club and have also been very hospitable, including throwing their house open to all and sundry for committee and rep meetings. If Mark does not to respond - so what - it's his right!

We don't need another club, what a waste of time. We need to direct our energies into improving the club we already have, which is already being run to a high standard of professionalism - by volunteers!

My spirited affair with a 350z is now over and I'm back with my TT, the best bit being the TTOC and the morale of TT ownership overall.

If you have suggestions, then do something about it. Either get involved or go and buy a Fiat 500!


----------

