# S-Tronic - why?



## scottk (Nov 7, 2004)

Might be missing something, but i've got a replacement TT for a couple of weeks whilst mine is in for bumper repairs. I've got a brand new V6 S-Tronic, Silver, RS4's and only had 190 miles on when I got it...came off a trailor the previous night apparently.

I've driven S-Tronic/DSG before and always felt underwhelmed by it but put it down to not driving enough. Took it out for a good 100 mile run today down a load of A-roads and finished feeling completely bored by the experience. In "normal" mode it felt sluggish and the power delivery was poor and unresponsive, and in sport mode it revved high all the time and when slowing down from 70 onto roundabouts it felt like it was lurching forward and fighting the braking as the gears dropped down... I think it takes away the driver involvment completely..

Probably great for being in traffic, but very boring otherwise. Each to the own of course :wink:


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## ross2280 (May 11, 2005)

Would love to hear a few more opinions on this, as i am considering changing to the s-tronic world in my next car.. :?


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## syc23 (Jun 17, 2007)

I testdrove the S-Tronic before ordering and found the box even in Sport mode quite frustrating as it doesn't give you 100% control, i.e.: let you hang onto the upper revs when cornering. Fair enough the box wants to prevent you from grenading the engine but by shifting up on it's on accord when you don't want to is just criminal in a sports car. Having driven the SMG box on the M3 CSL, while not quite as smooth as S-Tronic, it felt much better.

Just glad I went for the manual. Still happy after 8 months on.

Now waiting for the digital motoring brigade to beat anyone with a dislike for S-Tronic with a stick and extolling the virtues of how a flappy paddle box is the daddy - no it's not :wink:


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

Like you say - all opinion.

I had a manual MKII V6 first - hated it, ordered a replacement with DSG within two weeks of having it. Poor gear change, 1st and 2nd gears really really notchy and felt slow. Wasnt just my car i have driven 6 or 7 V6 manuals.

DSG by comparison smooth gear change, more fun in manual mode than a real manual IMO. D mode great for central london or traffic like you say. Also a car with DSG is quicker to 60 and quicker through the gears too. DSG is in a lower Tax band compared to the manual. Can't think of a downside tbh.

DSG was the first option on my list for the TTS. Would want to go back to a manual.


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## Whack01 (Feb 23, 2008)

I travel quite a bit every week so S-Tronic was a must have for me. If travelling less I would have gone for a manual, I believe a sports car should be manual. However I really like the S-Tronic and it's great to be able to bang it into D and just sit back on long drive or in traffic.


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

syc23 said:


> I testdrove the S-Tronic before ordering and found the box even in Sport mode quite frustrating as it doesn't give you 100% control, i.e.: let you hang onto the upper revs when cornering. Fair enough the box wants to prevent you from grenading the engine but by shifting up on it's on accord when you don't want to is just criminal in a sports car. Having driven the SMG box on the M3 CSL, while not quite as smooth as S-Tronic, it felt much better.


S mode is Automatic - so it will change up as the optimum point as per the software, be it in a corner or on a straight.
If you want to control when the car changes up, put it in manual - that's what its for. :?

This is WHY it has 3 modes - so you can pick what you want the box to do! 
Its like saying windows keeps applying the updates at a time you don't what or like - Take off auto-updates then.

You simply haven't used the box correctly for what you are wanting to do.


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## GhosTTy (Oct 10, 2007)

What he said. ^ "You simply haven't used the box correctly"
.


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## jbtco (Feb 13, 2008)

When in manual mode it is a manual car just no clutch, the driver has complete control. If needed can use auto in "touring" or sport mode but as far as I am concerned really only for city use or motorway slogs. I had a SMG M3 and only had it in auto mode about twice in nearly 3 years.


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## Wallsendmag (Feb 12, 2004)

Two cars in one lazy car for those boring trips to work and fast car when you use S


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## tegdiw (Feb 17, 2008)

^What they say. I use mine mainly for work and it sits in D for most of the time. D goes for best economy, so shifts like a granny. But if you press on in D it does its stuff and adapts the gear change profile to the speed and extent of throttle inputs.

I regularly override the D mode with the paddles - e.g. for engine braking, or preparing for an overtake - then let it take back over again (after a fuzzy logic induced period of time).

I rarely use S - but I regularly use the flappity paddle manual mode across country to drive like a normal manual - which is great fun.

Of course its not for everyone, auto gearboxes, auto wipers, and other technologies like sat nav don't always do it the way you would, so will always be its limitation. But its quite easy to drive around it, rather than railing against it.

On related point - when DSG was launched I was working as Product Specialist for Volkswagen UK. At Ehra Lessien the engineers were keen to point out how DSG inhibited a gear shift at full chat in a tight corner to maintain balance - and it did on the track  I had expected my TT to do similar, so I'll have to have a play in the next couple of weeks at Bruntingthorpe.


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## saint (Dec 6, 2002)

I've had 3 3.2s between the MkI and MkIIs - 2 with DSG and 1 Manual.

Ok, the s-tronic on the MkII has been improved over MkI. This time around I actually use sport mode more often.

Manual - bad = crunchy gears, having to change gear, always having to change gear and time taken to change gear... oh also everyone hates stop start traffic.

Manual - good = ok you can control the gears for a wee bit longer but how long do you actually want to stay over the redline. The S-tronic will hold it for upto 5 secs.

DSG - good = versatile in differing road conditions and traffic, you can't change gear any faster!!

DSG - bad = ok sometimes it's still a wee bit hesitant with the gears but no longer than it would take to change down or up a manual.

If you look around you in the car world.... even F1 ( that true motor sport) has s-tronic.


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## syc23 (Jun 17, 2007)

GhosTTy said:


> What he said. ^ "You simply haven't used the box correctly"


Typical. Resorting to that type of comment. I know more than how to drive properly whether its an auto or manual thanks.



> Manual - bad = crunchy gears, having to change gear, always having to change gear and time taken to change gear... oh also everyone hates stop start traffic.
> 
> Manual - good = ok you can control the gears for a wee bit longer but how long do you actually want to stay over the redline. The S-tronic will hold it for upto 5 secs.


Since when did I say that I'd like to have the needle pointing at/over the redline? What I meant was to have the revs in the powerband when pressing on in the twisties.

The manual box in my V6 is actually very smooth, doesn't feel notchy at all. Can't comment on people's experience on other manual TTs.

Anyway both setups have it's merits. That's all I'll say :wink:


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## jbtco (Feb 13, 2008)

[/quote]
The manual box in my V6 is actually very smooth, doesn't feel notchy at all. Can't comment on people's experience on other manual TTs.

Anyway both setups have it's merits. That's all I'll say :wink:[/quote]

But the s-tronic is a manual if you use it in manual mode just doesn't have a clutch. There is no torque converter to sap power as in an automatic.

I think Audi have confused a lot of people by calling it S-tronic not DSG.


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## GhosTTy (Oct 10, 2007)

syc23 said:


> GhosTTy said:
> 
> 
> > What he said. ^ "You simply haven't used the box correctly"
> ...


I'm not 'resorting' to any type of comment. It's not meant as a personal attack. Just my opinion on the use of s-tronic based on your earlier comments, which failed to mention the 'manual' mode.

Methinks thou dost protest too much. :wink:


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## Chippy_boy (Jan 15, 2008)

scottk said:


> In "normal" mode it felt sluggish and the power delivery was poor and unresponsive, and in sport mode it revved high all the time and when slowing down from 70 onto roundabouts it felt like it was lurching forward and fighting the braking as the gears dropped down... I think it takes away the driver involvment completely..


You can always drive it in manual mode. Did that not occur to you?


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## syc23 (Jun 17, 2007)

GhosTTy said:


> syc23 said:
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> > GhosTTy said:
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No worries but thanks for clearing that up 

My experience of the S-Tronic was based on 2 hours testdrive mainly in manual mode in Sport which gives full control. I'm sure if I had optioned it, I may get used to it in time but didn't want to take the chance. Don't fancy spending Â£36k on something then not liking it and then losing a packet trading it 3-4 months later.


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

syc23 said:


> My experience of the S-Tronic was based on 2 hours testdrive mainly in manual mode in Sport which gives full control.


Manual mode and sports mode are two different things. 
Sports is Automatic still and DOES NOT give you full control.
Manual is manual but with no slow clutch press and the resulting loss in power you get from manuals or the delay when you reach for the gear lever.

As for "revs in the power band when pressing on in the twisties" Stonic will ensure you are in the correct gear and im 100% sure the computer is better at judging and reacting than a human is.


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## squiggel (May 16, 2006)

Stronic and the 3.2 are an excellent match in my opinion.

Choose the mode depending on your mood: automatic for the relaxed driving experince, Sport for pressing through the twisties, override both any time you want for a few seconds by using the paddles, change between the two modes anytime you like while driving along.

If you want total control, flick the gear lever to the left and change gear with the paddles yourself. The car will only change after that to prevent stalling or the rev-limiter. The original post reads as if maybe this final mode had not ben tried... :?:

For me, it's the ideal gearbox, and the first time I have had a non-manual car. I never considered a normal automatic, and probably still wouldnt, but the DSG is different... 8)


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## scottk (Nov 7, 2004)

Chippy_boy said:


> scottk said:
> 
> 
> > In "normal" mode it felt sluggish and the power delivery was poor and unresponsive, and in sport mode it revved high all the time and when slowing down from 70 onto roundabouts it felt like it was lurching forward and fighting the braking as the gears dropped down... I think it takes away the driver involvment completely..
> ...


yeah, been doing that today, still not for me...just doesnt feel right at all. I didnt want to start off a big debate as I can see its clearly a driver preference thing...i honestly do not find the automatic or the flappy manual exciting in any way.

I want my manual back :?


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## Flyboyben (Apr 6, 2007)

It wasn't obvious to me at first how the S-tronic can be put in full manual mode as the gear box only has the 'D' and 'S' option. I think this can be confusing some folks who think it doesn't have a fully manual mode

When in 'D', move the gear stick over to the left, the tiptronic position. At the point the car is in fully manual mode. You can use the paddles to your hearts content and change gear when you want to


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## Mack The Knife (Jun 14, 2007)

scottk said:


> Might be missing something, but i've got a replacement TT for a couple of weeks whilst mine is in for bumper repairs. I've got a brand new V6 S-Tronic, Silver, RS4's and only had 190 miles on when I got it...came off a trailor the previous night apparently.
> 
> I've driven S-Tronic/DSG before and always felt underwhelmed by it but put it down to not driving enough. Took it out for a good 100 mile run today down a load of A-roads and finished feeling completely bored by the experience. In "normal" mode it felt sluggish and the power delivery was poor and unresponsive, and in sport mode it revved high all the time and when slowing down from 70 onto roundabouts it felt like it was lurching forward and fighting the braking as the gears dropped down... I think it takes away the driver involvment completely..
> 
> Probably great for being in traffic, but very boring otherwise. Each to the own of course :wink:


Like, or unlike, SYC23, did you try it in manual mode (not ordinary "D", not "S")?

If no-one (e.g. Audi) explained the DSG setting options and the DSG part of the operating handbook wasn't read (and let's face it, if *I* was given a replacement / courtesy car I would expect neither to happen!) I don't think the different settings would be totally apparent without an exceedingly thorough and extended play (possibly over many days).

Your post asks why S-tronic (DSG)? Personally, I think the DSG is one of the best features of my TT.

A few people say it takes away driver involvement and they like to "change gear" themselves. Well, I *can* choose all the changes myself but quicker than in a manual and definitely without faffing about moving my leg to depress a clutch (when it would otherwise be guarding the brake pedal) and definitely without taking a hand of the steering wheel. Where's the driver involvement in *having* to take a hand of the steering wheel?

I think there has been an earlier post pointing out that even in fully manual mode the DSG will force a change at the rev-limit on a bend whereas with a manual the same gear could be held but on the rev limit, thereby saving possible destabilisation from a gear change at peak revs. Although, I think that scenario says more about someone being in the wrong gear for the circumstances than any drawback of the DSG!

Having said all that: Definitely each to their own opinion and I am perfectly aware that not everyone prefers DSG.

I suspect the vast majority of drivers who have owned manual and then DSG would pick DSG again.


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## safTT (Mar 19, 2008)

scottk said:


> Chippy_boy said:
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> > scottk said:
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at last! someone with little honesty who isnt too proud to admit he may have made a mistake. My hat goes off to you SCOTTK!

One of my reasons for looking at VAG cars was for the DSG. I tried s-tronic on a test drive a really liked it. But i did get a little bored and i wasnt prepared to risk getting bored of a car i expect to keep for the 2/3 years. So i went for the manual and dont have any regrets.

PS - it really makes me laugh when people make comments like "s-tronic has no slow clutch involved" or "s-tronic eliminates the tiome wasted during gear changes" - did you previosly drive around thinking "God this gear changing is wasting my time"! :lol:

I for dont think my gear changes too long, what do i have to compare it against? I think the VAG marketing machine has got some of you pretty big.


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## Wallsendmag (Feb 12, 2004)

safTT said:


> scottk said:
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> > Chippy_boy said:
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Can someone move this thread to the flame room please :evil:


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## Wallsendmag (Feb 12, 2004)

Sorry don't bother just realized personal attacks are banned :wink:


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

wallsendmag said:


> Can someone move this thread to the flame room please :evil:


No point, some people can't even see the nose on their face and cling to the 'its an Automatic' 
DSG is all things to all people. It has ALL the advantages of the manual, with none of the draw backs and is just as INVOLVING - you can even use the gear level if you are such a 'traditional driver' that the paddles are too modern for you.

Its like saying the MFSW takes away the pleasure of changing stations on the radio :roll: 
What next - the remote control key takes away the control of using the key in the lock.

I give in. :x


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## scottk (Nov 7, 2004)

Toshiba said:


> wallsendmag said:
> 
> 
> > Can someone move this thread to the flame room please :evil:
> ...


If its so special and blows manual away, why did Audi even bother with a manual option? :wink:


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## Wallsendmag (Feb 12, 2004)

scottk said:


> Toshiba said:
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> > wallsendmag said:
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Because they knew that some customers would be so stuck in the 20th century that they wouldn't want to buy the best invention since the bread slicing machine. :roll:


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## GhosTTy (Oct 10, 2007)

scottk said:


> Toshiba said:
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> > wallsendmag said:
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For ludites and cheapskates! :-* 
.


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

To give the people a choice. :lol:

Why has Audi released a TTS, a V6, a Diesel a FWD car?
Why can you get 10 colours?
Why can you get 5 different wheel styles?

As i said, I bought a manual TT and i re-ordered a DSG TT within weeks of getting it. Am i wrong? No. The DSG is so much better in every-way for ME. Sportier, more fun and 3 cars in one to boot.

Bring on my new TTS with DSG. Long live DSG.


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## Chippy_boy (Jan 15, 2008)

safTT said:


> PS - it really makes me laugh when people make comments like "s-tronic has no slow clutch involved" or "s-tronic eliminates the tiome wasted during gear changes" - did you previosly drive around thinking "God this gear changing is wasting my time"! :lol:
> 
> I for dont think my gear changes too long, what do i have to compare it against? I think the VAG marketing machine has got some of you pretty big.


I think you are perhaps so used to a manual that its second nature to you. But when you do think about it, a manual gear change is a labour intensive operation and takes perhaps half a second or so.

That's maybe 0.5~1 seconds when you want the car to be accelerating and it isn't. In fact its decelerating.

Compare this to a flip of a paddle and a near-instantaneous gear change: the power is on nearly all the time and car continues to pull smoothly.

There's no comparison really and this is reflected in the performance stats.

(And its great for breaking too, by the way. Try dropping down 6th > 5th > 4th > 3rd > 2nd as you approach a tight bend at high speed in a manual. Dead easy with S-tronic. Unless you can heel-toe and double-declutch properly, its just horrible in a manual.)

So, no, its not Audi marketing hype! Strange you shouldn't have figured this?

EDIT: and if it is all hype, funny all the F1 cars have sequential auto boxes, isn't it. Maybe RÃ¤ikkÃ¶nen should go back to a gear lever and a clutch pedal to secure the FY08 F1 Championship? You're having a larf.


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## Flyboyben (Apr 6, 2007)

Chippy_boy said:


> That's maybe 0.5~1 seconds when you want the car to be accelerating and it isn't. In fact its decelerating.


Nerd hat on.

In that short period of time, the car is probably still accelerating, allbeit at a lower rate. During a gear change, its momentum you lose.


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## TTRTWO (Dec 9, 2006)

Can't be bothered to read the four pages of this post but I'm happy with manual. Others like STronic. No wrong answer, just personal choice.


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## safTT (Mar 19, 2008)

Chippy_boy said:


> safTT said:
> 
> 
> > PS - it really makes me laugh when people make comments like "s-tronic has no slow clutch involved" or "s-tronic eliminates the tiome wasted during gear changes" - did you previosly drive around thinking "God this gear changing is wasting my time"! :lol:
> ...


Did i say it doesnt tranform into figures? Anyway in F1 and other motorsports 1/10th of a second can means millions of pounds. in the real-world (where you and i live) .2 seconds means nowt diddly squat. if i had do choose between "clutch -> gear -> clutch" vs "press a button". i'd go through the same thought process as i did before... do i:
a) want to have fun and the sheer delight of instigating a perfect gear change 
or 
b) do i need to save .4 seconds on my return home from work.

....hmmmm - the term "NO-BRAINER" comes to mind.

PS - when you play computer games do you use the manual option or the auto option just cos its easier?

PPS - in my original thread i actually said i liked s-tronic i thought it was v smart.
[/b]


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## Chippy_boy (Jan 15, 2008)

Flyboyben said:


> Chippy_boy said:
> 
> 
> > That's maybe 0.5~1 seconds when you want the car to be accelerating and it isn't. In fact its decelerating.
> ...


Physics hat on.

Force = Mass x Acceleration.

Therefore no force (from the temporarily disengaged engine) = no acceleration.

In fact there is a force acting though: wind resistance (and friction). So in fact when you are changing gear, the car is actually accelerating backwards, aka decelerating.

Sorry but these are the laws of physics.


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## Chippy_boy (Jan 15, 2008)

safTT said:


> do i:
> a) want to have fun and the sheer delight of instigating a perfect gear change
> b) do i need to save .4 seconds on my return home from work.


I get both every day with s-tronic


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## scottk (Nov 7, 2004)

Chippy_boy said:


> safTT said:
> 
> 
> > do i:
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Im giving it more time and have to admit the commute this morning was very handy without having to dip the clutch every 30 seconds crawling along in traffic. I can see the benefits of having it here.

I (and im not saying everyoen should or does) honestly do find the drive quite dull though overall, I quite like the feeling of letting out the clutch changing gear and slamming down on the accelerator, as opposed to the blip and the change of gear that seems to happen without even noticing...I cant do with the manual paddle thing as rarely have my left hand on the steering wheel (usually resting it on the gear lever) so would need to in order to change down gears.


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## Martin L (Jan 19, 2008)

I can totally see the views from both sides, and I for one wanted manaul until the Mrs said she wanted the s-tronic "just in case" she needed to drive it, so I reluctantly spec'd it up in the knowledge she was going to pay for the box (ain't seen a penny yet :roll: ).
Now that I have it, I am mightlily impressed with it, BUT, it does take that something away from driving a manual car.
I do miss the clutch control and the feel of changing gear which I think is all part of the driving experience.
Now that we have two autos I have nothing manaul to turn to apart from when I hire cars...  
Would I spec an s-tronic again? Yes as it's an impressive piece of kit, but I do so in the knowledge that I've lost a part of the drving experience.

It does definately take some getting used to especially in sport mode, which I feel has to be used in manual mode. The darn thing only changes up on the red line if left to it's own devices...


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## Flyboyben (Apr 6, 2007)

Chippy_boy said:


> Flyboyben said:
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> > Chippy_boy said:
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Ahh, but there still is force, from the momentum. Force = change in momentum/change in time.

When you come off the accelerator, the force from the engine goes to zero but there is still force from momentum, and momentum isn't lost instantaneously, although it will be relatively quick in a car, due to things you mention like wind, friction etc.


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## tegdiw (Feb 17, 2008)

On a positive note I like the way it retards the ignition on an upshift and you get a blat from the exhaust.

Physics was never my strong point, but when I play shove ha'penny in the pub - I'm sure the coin doesn't go any faster _after _I've clobbered it... :?


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## powerplay (Feb 8, 2008)

Flyboyben said:


> Ahh, but there still is force, from the momentum. Force = change in momentum/change in time.
> 
> When you come off the accelerator, the force from the engine goes to zero but there is still force from momentum, and momentum isn't lost instantaneously, although it will be relatively quick in a car, due to things you mention like wind, friction etc.


Sorry again, with my physics hat on.

Momentum is *not* a force. I suspect you are making a statement based on what your experience seems to tells you about the real world.

Momentum is a measurement of the motion content of a body and is the product of mass * velocity. Force is the push or pull that is applied to an object to change its momentum. Momentum changes as force is applied over time. If the force is removed, even for 1 second, the momentum will change. Frictional losses will cause a deceleration, however even if friction could be ruled out, remove the F component and the A component is also removed.


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## Jimbo2 (Nov 30, 2006)

scottk said:


> Im giving it more time and have to admit the commute this morning was very handy without having to dip the clutch every 30 seconds crawling along in traffic. I can see the benefits of having it here.
> 
> I (and im not saying everyoen should or does) honestly do find the drive quite dull though overall, I quite like the feeling of letting out the clutch changing gear and slamming down on the accelerator, as opposed to the blip and the change of gear that seems to happen without even noticing...I cant do with the manual paddle thing as rarely have my left hand on the steering wheel (usually resting it on the gear lever) so would need to in order to change down gears.


Put the box in M. Pull the gear lever back to change down, push it forward to change up. You can even use RH paddle and LH gearstick for the ultimate in lazy driving, or even rely on the box to change down for you, just before it stalls. :lol:

This thread is funny. For the record, I personally find DSG rewarding to drive, so much so I ordered my TT-S with it.

It means that I can normally beat better cars on the roads due to the inability of the general public to manually change gears quickly enough to make any 0-60 advantage they have worthwhile. I like the fact that I can spend all day stuck in heavy traffic without smoking the clutch or getting leg cramp. I also like the fact that I can pop the 'box into S whenever I need to get the best possible performance out of the car and never have the distraction of messing around with gear changes and one-handed driving when I need to be concentrating on road conditions.

As for dull... well, the TT is more of a cruiser than a Cayman and that is true whether you have a manual box or DSG.


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## Mack The Knife (Jun 14, 2007)

Jimbo2 said:


> This thread is funny.


  



Flyboyben said:


> Chippy_boy said:
> 
> 
> > Flyboyben said:
> ...


Floyben, your take on the laws of physics is very interesting.

If you have a car that continues to accelerate (say, on level ground) without any power applied to the transmission can I buy it from you for ANY sum you want?


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## Chippy_boy (Jan 15, 2008)

Flyboyben said:


> Ahh, but there still is force, from the momentum. Force = change in momentum/change in time.
> 
> When you come off the accelerator, the force from the engine goes to zero but there is still force from momentum, and momentum isn't lost instantaneously, although it will be relatively quick in a car, due to things you mention like wind, friction etc.


LOL, are you drunk?

What you say above "but there is still force from momentum" etc is - I am afraid complete gibberish and wholly wrong.

This really is Physics for 12 year olds, i.e. Newtons 1st law.

A car can't accelerate forwards without a force pushing it forwards and with the engine disengaged, there isn't one. End of debate.

So while the engine isn't pushing it forward (and there is no other "magical" force to be found) the only forces acting on it are drag and friction, so it slows down during the gear change.

Sorry you can argue all you like, but that's the fact - and I do know, see below.

Chippy_boy
BSc. (Hons) Physics, Imperial College
Associate of the Royal College of Science


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## scottk (Nov 7, 2004)

Chippy_boy said:


> Flyboyben said:
> 
> 
> > Ahh, but there still is force, from the momentum. Force = change in momentum/change in time.
> ...


Bloody hell, im sorry I ever mentioned it!! :lol:


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## Mack The Knife (Jun 14, 2007)

Chippy_boy said:


> Flyboyben said:
> 
> 
> > Ahh, but there still is force, from the momentum. Force = change in momentum/change in time.
> ...


I think the lights are on but there's no-one in!

Mack
'A' level physics + BEng + CEng etc
(on trumps, Chippy Boy, I don my hat to you...) [smiley=book2.gif]


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## Mack The Knife (Jun 14, 2007)

scottk said:


> Bloody hell, im sorry I ever mentioned it!! :lol:


Scott,

If Floyben sells me a car that accelerates on the flat (without a back-wind) without any transmission engaged, I'll cut you into a share of the profit I'll subsequently make (partly 'cos it seems fair to do so and partly 'cos I'll never be able to spend it all).


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## Mack The Knife (Jun 14, 2007)

Chippy_boy said:


> LOL, are you drunk?
> 
> What you say above "but there is still force from momentum" etc is - I am afraid complete gibberish and wholly wrong.
> 
> This really is Physics for 12 year olds, i.e. Newtons 1st law.


Could depend on relative perspective...


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## Chippy_boy (Jan 15, 2008)

Mack The Knife said:


> scottk said:
> 
> 
> > Bloody hell, im sorry I ever mentioned it!! :lol:
> ...


Maybe the Magnetic Ride pulls the car towards the car in front? LOL


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## Flyboyben (Apr 6, 2007)

Ok ok! Wow, you guys are harsh!

Seeing as we have some of Newton's prodigies on here, I will stand corrected and put this one down to experience. I guess i should dust off my old school books :?


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## Mack The Knife (Jun 14, 2007)

Flyboyben said:


> Ok ok! Wow, you guys are harsh!
> 
> Seeing as we have some of Newton's prodigies on here, I will stand corrected and put this one down to experience. I guess i should dust off my old school books :?


Flyboyben,
I think it was all meant in good humour. [smiley=thumbsup.gif]


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## Chippy_boy (Jan 15, 2008)

Mack The Knife said:


> Flyboyben said:
> 
> 
> > Ok ok! Wow, you guys are harsh!
> ...


Indeed it was. Looking at my post, it was lacking in smilies, so apologies I did not mean to appear "arsey"


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## Martin L (Jan 19, 2008)

Jimbo2 said:


> It means that I can normally beat better cars on the roads due to the inability of the general public to manually change gears quickly enough to make any 0-60 advantage they have worthwhile. I like the fact that I can spend all day stuck in heavy traffic without smoking the clutch or getting leg cramp. I also like the fact that I can pop the 'box into S whenever I need to get the best possible performance out of the car and never have the distraction of messing around with gear changes and one-handed driving when I need to be concentrating on road conditions.


Well put 

The shock on my collegues face when he couldn't out accelerate me in his 335i was classic. I wasn't even in sport and the thing changed up around 5k rpm  

I like the fact that the 0-60 time stated on the box is real life acheivable 

As for the physics lessons, classic forum bullshite :lol: :lol:


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## scottk (Nov 7, 2004)

Mack The Knife said:


> scottk said:
> 
> 
> > Bloody hell, im sorry I ever mentioned it!! :lol:
> ...


what if he sells you a car being towed on the back of a trailor :wink:


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## mramessa (Mar 30, 2008)

I have had my TT for about a week and do miss the gear control.

Early days and not used to auto so wanted to check some bits with you other DSG owners.

In manual mode I find it hard to know what gear you are in when driving hard as with a manual I know what gear I have selected, I find tryig to look at the number of the gear on the display is dangerous as you refocus from the road and back and take your eye off the ball.

I am worried that I change down lets say by accident into first doing 70 and blow the gear box. I read here that there is protection against this, is this correct? Regarding stalling in manual I will play with this tomorrow.

So I suppose I am wondering is gear changing in manual something you get used to and can easily master with pratice or do I just stay lazy and leave it in auto. It certainly has not been easy to use the paddels well as I was expecting.

Apart from this I love my new TT and it is the best car I have owned by far. Added bonus of random ladies smiling at me when I am in traffic or at the lights and wish I had one before I was married :lol:


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## Wallsendmag (Feb 12, 2004)

When we were in the dales last week with the Mini I was wishing I had done the senible thing and taken the TT. Changing gear all the time was no fun :wink:


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## Black Knight (Jan 16, 2007)

Bah, S mode is insane and is a real "race" mode. No other automatic gearbox has anything like it.
All other autos you can drive around town in S mode(BMWs for example) and you would hardly notice much difference.

But this, this you notice. It is insane and it only works in combination with the most extreme driving. 100% braking, 100% acceleration - 100% of the time. Coasting around in S mode is a total no-no.

Anyone thinking they can shave off seconds on their time to the grocery store by driving a manual is really full of it.

If you don't like it, that's fine, but there's no way I'd let anyone off with a claim that they'd keep a gear a bit longer in a curve and that would make for a better lap time or whatever.

As for me, I quite like keeping my both hands firmly on the steering wheel and letting the drivetrain do the work. If it had a CVT I'd be even happier. 
The gearbox shifting is just a consequence of our engines(otto or diesel whatever) having a relatively narrow torque RPM band and requiring different gears, it is not something that is inherent to driving a 4 wheeled vehicle, just a consqeuence of lacking machinery propelling the car.

Anyway, manual mode is almost unneccessary and basicly could only be used to enable to drive a bit more racey than D mode but not all-out S mode. I never used it except to drop a few gears and get some engine braking when coasting to a stop at a red light.
Naturally, the people at Audi found it important to allow people to manually shift as people like to fool themselves into thinking they can do it better...a victimless crime 

Anyone actually needing all that "gearbox control" should have bought a different car. I would have guessed that people buying TTs do not expect a god damn TVR or Elises, but hey, what do I know...


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## Guest (May 23, 2008)

Black Knight said:


> Bah, S mode is insane and is a real "race" mode. No other automatic gearbox has anything like it.
> All other autos you can drive around town in S mode(BMWs for example) and you would hardly notice much difference.
> 
> But this, this you notice. It is insane and it only works in combination with the most extreme driving. 100% braking, 100% acceleration - 100% of the time. Coasting around in S mode is a total no-no.
> ...


Round of appluase to that man. Well said, great post.


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## Suge_K (May 27, 2008)

Indeed...great post...

On my test drive i was pootling around in D...still impressed with the feel of the engine...the sales chappie slipped it into S and told me to boot it and yes, it is a massive difference...especially down the lanes with Mag Ride on...

When i got back my missus, who was in the back all the way (shes little) said she could really notice the difference in the back and the lurches of acceleration kept making her bang her head on the rear window...

This made me giggle and I ordered the car...   

*No jokes about my missus not liking it in the back*


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## Mack The Knife (Jun 14, 2007)

Redcar_TT said:


> Black Knight said:
> 
> 
> > Bah, S mode is insane and is a real "race" mode. No other automatic gearbox has anything like it.
> ...


Here, here. And another round of applause on top.


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## RGBArgee (May 28, 2008)

ross2280 said:


> Would love to hear a few more opinions on this, as i am considering changing to the s-tronic world in my next car.. :?


Borrowed an R8 with S Chronic Gearbox and it spoiled an otherwise ourstanding car IMHO, similar experiences with A4 Cam Multi Chronic. Not a fan I'm afraid. Manual or 'proper' autos for me.

TT
R


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## rodo (Jun 3, 2008)

before dsg was introduced, i was never enthusitastic for autos because of the torque converter. even in a fast car you can feel it robbing power, and the idle changes. i thought i'd always drive a manual, not for involvement but because i could get the maximum from the engine. but when dsg arrived there was a real alternative.

i thought i'd test drive an audi with dsg back to back with a manual. my preference was the dsg. it was an easy decision.

i've been using s-tronic for two years now, i brought my a3 with it because i spend most of my time inner city driving, the clutch was a pain. i don't see the thrill of "perfect gear changes," aren't they all pretty much perfect. i see gear changes as a mechanical part of driving, not a love affair. driving to me is about that, driving, not changing gear. 
i still drive my girlfriends car from time to time which is a manual, and it just reinforces my feelings toward manual, its pointless. i enjoy dsg, well i enjoy the lack of no clutch and quicker changes than an auto box.

for me the question is why manual? when i go go-karting, i dont think to myself god i wish these karts had a gear stick for more driver involvement, no.

ive listened to quite a few people who say they only ever drive there s-tronic cars in manual. whats the bleeding point in that. i can imagine them changing up and down the gears all the time, inner city doing 20-30 mph.

sorry i keep calling it dsg but thats how it was sold when i brought my car before they changed it to s-tronic. dsg is not perfect, but then neither is manual. my only wish is there was a fourth setting an intermediate setting. my chip works in s and m mode, not d, d is too lazy sometimes and is too eager to get into sixth gear, upside good fuel economy. s mode can sometimes be too extreme with the chip, not smooth for passengers. happy middle mode is where id probably spend most of my time.

35k on the clock, time to change soon, the tts couldnt have come at a better time, i hadnt wanted to buy a 3.2 quattro with dsg because of the lack of cheap tuning potential. an s3 only offers manual. the tts on paper answers everything, turbo, quattro dsg! thats until i test drive one that is.


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## Wondermikie (Apr 14, 2006)

RGBArgee said:


> ross2280 said:
> 
> 
> > Would love to hear a few more opinions on this, as i am considering changing to the s-tronic world in my next car.. :?
> ...


R8 is R-tronic and is not the same, it's a single clutch automated manual, same as Lambo E-gear. The A4 /box is CVT isn't it, also not good.


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## Jo Sharp (May 7, 2004)

rodo said:


> an s3 only offers manual. the tts on paper answers everything, turbo, quattro dsg! thats until i test drive one that is.


The S3 also has DSG available from Nov this year


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## syc23 (Jun 17, 2007)

rodo said:


> i've been using s-tronic for two years now, i brought my a3 with it because i spend most of my time inner city driving, the clutch was a pain. i don't see the thrill of "perfect gear changes," aren't they all pretty much perfect. i see gear changes as a mechanical part of driving, not a love affair. driving to me is about that, driving, not changing gear.


I use my TT for the weekend for the occasional blast and tend to avoid the city centre so having a stick shift with manual clutch gives me full control. I've always enjoyed using a manual shift and avoid auto boxes like the plague. However, If you were to use the TT for a mix of inner city driving with a dose of motorway cruising and b road blast then S-Tronic would be ideal.

So if you say that changing gear is a 'hindrance' in driving then would you say the same about twirling a steering wheel when you need to turn the car? I'm all for technology in cars if it enhances the 'thrill of driving' but equally against manufacturers like Mercedes who are adding unnecessary gadgets which 'dumb' down the driving experience.


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## Philimon (May 29, 2008)

My perspective on DSG vs Manual:

8 years ago, my dad was unwell at the time and I did a lot of driving for him.He bought himself a diesel BMW - one of the first and a manual to boot. It had a really interesting engine. Zero torque below 1700 rpm and 100% torque at 1701 rpm. Pulling off was fun. Do it too slowly and the clutch would be fully out at 1200rpm in first. To go anywhere, you'd have to put your foot down and the car would slooowly accelerate. When you hit 1701 rpm your neck would snap at the sudden acceleration.

But you know what? It made the driving fun and challanging. The co-ordinated movement of left arm and left leg was party of it. Get it right and you felt like a hero. Get it wrong and I got a open-hand smack on the back of the head. With the manual I felt connect to this Ultimate Driving Machine. it was effort, but it was most rewarding. More effort, for sure, but more rewarding

His next car was the same car but with the DSG-type option. The car was a completely different beast to drive. It was a pleasure - easy, no effort, no worrying about getting the pull-off wrong. But somehow I felt a little more removed from the vehicle. Like I was no longer plugged in to the car. I was no longer integrated into the driving experience. Less effort, but less rewarding.

8 years later I found the same thing on my long TT test drives. The manual made me feel connected to the Ultimate Driving Machine (tm). More effort, but more rewarding for every element of it. I felt connected to and part of the process.

Driving the DSG was a pleasure. It was easier, neater and fast. It was even more fun through the bends. Keeping my hands on the steering wheel allowed me to focus more on the job at hand rather than being distracted by gearboxes and clutches. A quick push on a paddle now and then and I got all the response I needed. But there was always a middle man. Even in manual mode I felt disconnected and merely an influencer of the process, rather than part of it.

In summary, for me:
Manual = more effort, more reward, more connected
DSG = less effort, less connected, less reward.

BUT, look at my signature: I ordered DSG. Why? Because its the best compromise in my point of view. The manual mode settled it for me

2p supplied.


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## Simon H (Jun 22, 2008)

I wonder if some of the disliking of DSG is down to the drivers age.And by that,i mean when i was a younger chap,i would only entertain a manual gearbox,as i wanted to interact and drive the thing.I bought a new M3 in 2004, and the thought of SMG changing gears for me was totally taboo,so i bought a manual.I suppose that the SMG and DSG boxes were just starting to catch on then,but now have developed somewhat.I then had a new M5 with SMG,and i was a couple of years older and was smitten with the gearchanges.I now find myself actively seeking the automated manual boxes as my first choice,and after testing the TTS with DSG properly,i honestly would not go back to manual if the choice was there.I suppose its always down to driver preferance,but maybe the youger lads want to have that,im in total control feeling?.Regards, SIMON. :?:


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

Who cares why they dont like DSG. They all still probably buy their films on VHS and think vinyl is something to listen to music on.

DSG is a manual box if you want it to be - simple as.
If you dont like, dont buy it. saying DSG is less involving than a manual - thats just bottom talk.


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## kmpowell (May 6, 2002)

Toshiba said:


> DSG is a manual box if you want it to be - simple as.
> If you dont like, dont buy it.


Can you go from 4th to 2nd without touching 3rd, or 6th to 4th without touching 5th?

...you can't, therefore it's not by any stretch of the imagination a manual box, simple as that.

I won't.


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

Yes just press the button or push the gear stick.

Can you go from track 1 on your mp3 player to track 3 without listening to 2? yes. Since DSG changes faster than you can 'manually' doesn't matter if the 'system' had to go 6 4 2 then to 5. :roll:

Did i mention TTs in black look crap? Guess what, i wont being buying one.
For me the TT is more sporty and faster with this box. Had the manual MKII, hated it, ordered a new one within two weeks of getting it.

Moral - who gives a feck, what you like doesn't make me like it. also doesn't make it right or wrong :?


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## Suge_K (May 27, 2008)

Eggzactly...takes 0.2 secs for gear change, ie as quick as you could flick it...in a manual you would be out of gear for 3 times that time at least...plus with S-tronic no lungey gear changes when dropping down for cornering...

M mode is a manual box at your fingertips and allows you to keep two hands on the wheel while taking corners...

Some people will never take to paddle shifting but thats no problem...just double kickdown and overtake them


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## Wallsendmag (Feb 12, 2004)

Every time this comes up its the same discussion :?


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## syc23 (Jun 17, 2007)

Suge_K said:


> Some people will never take to paddle shifting but thats no problem...just double kickdown and overtake them


Had to laugh the other day when I was at a set of traffic lights next to a TT 2.0...peered over and noticed he was driving an S-Tronic. Gave him a wee nod and he thought that was a cue to race...lights go green and he gave it the full beans and speeded off and left me standing.

But then about precisely 2 seconds later I gave him a wee wave as I blazed past him on the bike and his 'fast' S-Tronic TT was a speck in my mirrors. The look on his face was priceless  I guess he wasn't trying hard enough with double kickdown..!

Then again, there are people silly enough to think that a TT can out drag a bike that can do 160 in 13 secs* Oh, and the bike has a manual sequential box - it does not need an S-Tronic to go fast. It has 1000bhp/ton power to weight ratio thank you.

*on a race track of course :roll:

Anyway, enough of all this silliness debating about which gearbox is best. each has it's merits :-*


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

Like you say - it was only a 20T, not really a challenge was it.


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## Suge_K (May 27, 2008)

Not a bike fan sorry...it is impossible to look cool on a bike...sure its quick but not gona get any admiring glances...as sad as i am that does count


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## syc23 (Jun 17, 2007)

Toshiba said:


> Like you say - it was only a 20T, not really a challenge was it.


Well I had to cheat as bit as my manual TT 3.2 was not up to the task of going fast :twisted: 

I'm waiting for someone to point out that an F1 car is faster but I don't often see one scooting about in my neck of the woods :wink:


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## syc23 (Jun 17, 2007)

Suge_K said:


> Not a bike fan sorry...it is impossible to look cool on a bike...sure its quick but not gona get any admiring glances...as sad as i am that does count


That's probably true. I have the best of both worlds. I do notice that the TT does turn a lot of heads. The bike I'm too busy concentrating looking out for car drivers trying to kill me on the road checking to see if anyone is admiring


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## Suge_K (May 27, 2008)

Its kool i will let you off as you have a TT...you can still slay the chicitas as required 

Kinda wish i was into bikes...amazing peformance for not much dough...would be a real hobby thing if i ever did...just doesnt appeal...maybe i need a go on one... :?


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

You just want an excuse to dress up in gimp gear and look daft :lol:

Band all motorbikes, they all rides/drive like tosser and then wonder why they get hurt. :?


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## FinFerNan (Feb 28, 2007)

Toshiba said:


> Like you say - it was only a 20T, not really a challenge was it.


True Tosh - But you paid a sh1t load more for your car and would have put up no more of a meanigfull challenge to syc23 :lol: :lol:


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

Id have knocked him off the bike,


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## syc23 (Jun 17, 2007)

Toshiba said:


> Id have knocked him off the bike,


If you can get near me in the first place :lol:


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## Suge_K (May 27, 2008)

Toshiba said:


> You just want an excuse to dress up in gimp gear and look daft :lol:
> 
> Band all motorbikes, the rides all drive like tosser and then wonder why they get hurt. :?


118 118...

Got my number...

True that though re riding like t*ssers...98% of bikers i suspect give the rest a bad name, no lane discipline etc. Bike should be ride like a car space wise i.e. wait your turn at the lights...overtaking, etc...end of


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## FinFerNan (Feb 28, 2007)

Toshiba said:


> Id have knocked him off the bike,


 :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## GhosTTy (Oct 10, 2007)

Wait till it rains, then he'll just fall off. Or park up his bike like most fairweather motorcyclists do. :roll:


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## Black Knight (Jan 16, 2007)

iit's just a matter of breaking the habit for most manual worshipers on here.

if they were forced to drive a DSG for like 3-6-12 months they'd never opt for a manual again... they wont admit this of course... my first auto was the DSG and i forced myself into it. i thought, why the heck not, it shifts better than humans, allows me to pick my nose while launching at the lights, it cant be that bad.. i did and still do enjoy changing gears when i have room for a "nice drive"(which in reality is 1% of the time, the rest im driving back and forth to work and raelly happy about not getting cramps in my leg) and i think i'm quite good at it, but DSG is better than me and any of you, and when you get used to how it works everything is back under your control again.
you know how to make it upshift or downshift, how it will respond even in D mode... it's just a computer program that acts on how it is programmed. it does not have a mind of its own, it just might seem like that for someone who test drove one for a day or two. once you realise how it works and what makes it shift and when it is just a matter of pressing the right controls(throttle, brake) and the only thing different is that the controls dont involve the clutch or gearstick..

someone said they dont like not being able to shift from 4th to 2nd. skipping gears is a no-no in race driving. and as for regular driving, there's the kickdown option which can skip gears if they're on the same shafts.. it kickdowns from 6th to 3rd to 2nd, skips 5th and 4th.. it does it pretty fast and smooth and doesnt kill the synchros as much as a person with a manual would shifting from 4th to 2nd. if they really wanted to they could make it skip to the same shaft - just like regular robotized gearboxes(selespeed and such) but it would not retain the smoothness and really, i like it the way it is and have no need to shift from 4th to 2nd directly. i've never actually wanted to do that when i drove a manual either, sometimes it happens by accident, you slow down and dont bother to downshift because you're just coasting to a stop or something and suddenly want to accelerate(the lights changed to green for example) and find yourself in 4th gear and you'd really want 2nd.. but that's really a mistake in driving...

DSG shifting algorithms could be improved, it should not shift up to 6th gear in D all the while kick down is 2nd gear.. it should keep 5th so it can kickdown directly to 2nd. only after outside of 2nd gear range it should shift up to 6th. that would really make it snappy around town. i wish someone would pay me money for these ideas..


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## GhosTTy (Oct 10, 2007)

Yep. What he ^^^ said. Well put.


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## oomidamon (Jun 24, 2008)

I picked up my 2.0 s-tronic on Monday and it's the first auto car I've ever owned. I did really wonder whether I was doing the right thing, but I can't say I've got any regrets at the mo. The 'box just seems much more modern than a manual shift but still gives the option of manual control if wanted. So far, I'm impressed.

PS I'm also a biker and comments like 'all bikers are tossers' followed by 'I'd have knocked him off' are typical of the arsehole mentalaity of a lot of car drivers, especially those who think their car is fast, IMHO.


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## Philimon (May 29, 2008)

oomidamon said:


> I picked up my 2.0 s-tronic on Monday and it's the first auto car I've ever owned. I did really wonder whether I was doing the right thing, but I can't say I've got any regrets at the mo. The 'box just seems much more modern than a manual shift but still gives the option of manual control if wanted. So far, I'm impressed.
> 
> PS I'm also a biker and comments like 'all bikers are tossers' followed by 'I'd have knocked him off' are typical of the arsehole mentalaity of a lot of car drivers, especially those who think their car is fast, IMHO.


Excellent news - My S-Tronic is due end of the month and I can barely wait.

Re your biker comments, I'm a regular user of many forums and I have to say I've found this one the particularly.... uhm .... let me say "unforgiving". Just my observations.


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## Redcoat (Jun 26, 2008)

I think Blacknight nailed it in one...

Living as I do in the land of the slush box I had no choice but to get S-Tronic (manual only available on the V6 here). My last car was a VW GTi with the older 'Tiptronic' system and the new system seems to be a GIANT leap forward. Even though I've only had the TT for a week I'm confident that once run its going to be vastly more entertaining than the VW. The 'baaaarppp' the exhaust makes on upshifts is a nice touch and the option of paddleshifting or conventional shift keeps boredom at bay on the commute to work.

I like.


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## syc23 (Jun 17, 2007)

oomidamon said:


> PS I'm also a biker and comments like 'all bikers are tossers' followed by 'I'd have knocked him off' are typical of the arsehole mentalaity of a lot of car drivers, especially those who think their car is fast, IMHO.


+1

Couldn't have put that better myself. Describes perfectly of those who would make such comments.

There are some people here who put themselves on a pedestal (you know who you are). There are as many muppet drivers and suicidal bikers who gives their 'group' a bad name and equally there are people who drive / ride swifty but in a safe manner.


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## Simon H (Jun 22, 2008)

Just to let you know,when i see bikers when im in my best car, i do anything at all to get out of their way.Im so paranoid of being showered with small stones that cause stonechips,by their sticky back tyres, i go out of my way to avoid them.Please give us OCD drivers a second thought as you pass by,covering us with whatever remnents lie in the middle of the road  ,regards, SIMON.


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## Godzilla (Feb 20, 2007)

kmpowell said:


> Can you go from 4th to 2nd without touching 3rd, or 6th to 4th without touching 5th?
> 
> ...you can't, therefore it's not by any stretch of the imagination a manual box, simple as that.
> 
> I won't.


Why does any inability to go from 4th to 2nd without touching 3rd mean that it is NOT a manual box.

What it actually means is that it is a sequential box, which can be fully manual, with a manually operated clutch, or fully automatic.

As for the DSG/ S-tronic I believe that it has twice as many clutches as a 'manual' car


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