# 2.0T Re-map Summary Table - Which One?



## benjones (Dec 4, 2006)

I've thrown together a little table summarising the stats of popular re-maps around (all info taken from official websites)...


```
Supplier           Re-map      Price    Old Power(Hp) New Power(Hp) Power Inc.(Hp) Old Torque(Nm) New Torque(Nm) Torque Inc.(Nm)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jamie              Jamie(r)    Â£250.00  200           245           45             280            350            70
p-torque.co.uk     P-Torque    Â£350.00  N/A           N/A           40-50          N/A            N/A            75
addbhp.com         Digi Tec    Â£399.00  N/A           N/A           40             N/A            N/A            70
uk-performance.com OCT         Â£475.00  200           235           35             280            350            70
amdtechnik.com     AmD         Â£499.94  N/A           N/A           45-55          N/A            N/A            81-97
autops.co.uk       PCM Tuning  Â£500.00  N/A           N/A           50             N/A            N/A            68
grahamgoode.com    Bluefin(d)  Â£511.13  197           238           45             280            334            54
vagcheck.com       Custom Code Â£550.00  200           240-250       40-50          280            353-380        73-100
goapr.co.uk        APR         Â£586.33  210           252           42             312            411            99
bsruk.co.uk        BSR-PPC(d)  Â£587.50  206           248           42             295            366            71
racetechuk.com     GIAC(d)(r)  Â£629.00  200           240-245       40-45          280            350-360        70-80
qstuning.com       MTM         Â£881.25  N/A           N/A           45             N/A            N/A            75

(d)=Self Flashing Dongle Included
(r)=Flashing Software Resets Flash Counters
```
EDIT1: APS / PCM Tuning added to list
EDIT2: Star Performance / GIAC added to list
EDIT3: Add BHP / Digi Tec price and stats updated
EDIT4: GIAC supplier updated due to better pricing
EDIT5: 'Mate of a mate' Jamie added to list
EDIT6: P-Torque added to list
EDIT7: Bluefin supplier updated due to better pricing


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## vanos (Aug 25, 2006)

with GIAC. the flash counter does not increase.


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## R6B TT (Feb 25, 2003)

I have the pukka AmD (ie before BBT takeover) rolling road remap and am well happy with it.

However, since my tried and trusted relationship with AmD is no longer there - I'd think I'd either go with APS or Custom Code (via Wak).

TTLaw's got the Bluefin on his new S3 and is well pleased with it, but I haven't had the chance to experience it yet.

BTW I have nothing against APR either


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## benjones (Dec 4, 2006)

Cheers for advice guys. Even more options now though :?

APS / PCM Tuning sounds pretty good - same software engineer from "old" AmD. What do you think about a relatively unknown remap like addbhp.com - quite cheap but would I be risking my engine blowing up!?


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

Can the code from say the ed30 be downloaded and uploaded?

Reason i ask is - well if you get a problem the map is a VW map and they couldn't refuse to cover anything under warranty since its their code.


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## benjones (Dec 4, 2006)

Toshiba said:


> Can the code from say the ed30 be downloaded and uploaded?
> 
> Reason i ask is - well if you get a problem the map is a VW map and they couldn't refuse to cover anything under warranty since its their code.


Except it would be on the wrong car :roll:


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## jimb (Oct 31, 2006)

benjones said:


> Toshiba said:
> 
> 
> > Can the code from say the ed30 be downloaded and uploaded?
> ...


with the wrong hardware... :roll:


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## cheechy (Nov 8, 2006)

I'll second the GIAC remap. It may be an expensive option at around Â£500 + another Â£100 for the dongle BUT it certainly does not increment the counter and its changable. The best of bother worlds.

I know Star Performance in Fife are doing this but its a bit of a trek for you - gives you a great opportunity to try out the extra performance on the way home though


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## benjones (Dec 4, 2006)

I haven't been able to find out any firm stats for GIAC - best I can find is http://www.giacusa.com/programs.php?mpid=171 but it is all quite vague. My folks have just moved to the States though so I wonder if they could get hold of it over there on the cheap?

Star Performance has this page http://www.starperformance.co.uk/audi.htm do you think they are GIAC remaps for the 2.0T?

EDIT: Just spoken to Star Performance and asked for the stats. Price is Â£599 for remap, Â£99 for dongle and Â£36 for stock program though


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

benjones said:


> Toshiba said:
> 
> 
> > Can the code from say the ed30 be downloaded and uploaded?
> ...


You think they change the hardware to match a map? :lol:

Do you think the 20T maps are different for each car? They are engine based only. My point was VW/Audi could not refuse to support an approved map/their own remap for their own engine. Where that engine is installed means nothing.


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## benjones (Dec 4, 2006)

Not the case though Tosh. Apparently the ED30 has the larger turbo found in the S3 so I guess you're supposed to look at it as a detuned S3 engine instead of a tuned GTI.

I'm sure there are other differences in the hardware too - strengthened internals being one.


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## cheechy (Nov 8, 2006)

Toshiba said:


> benjones said:
> 
> 
> > Toshiba said:
> ...


Why are you stating your opinion / view of the world as fact again?

The engine in the ED30 has a different turbo and injectors. They then have to create a software program to go with the different engine to get the best performance / reliability / economy / emissions.

Ben - Star may seem expensive but they have one of the best products available just now. "You pays your money and gets your choice"


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

Fook u.

do as you pls with you're underpowered fwd car.


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## cheechy (Nov 8, 2006)

Thats the real issue here Tosh

You seem to take great pleasure in making sure people know you bought the 'better car' at every opportunity.

Here's a new concept for you - if you dont know anything about a subject area it may mean you dont necessarily have to comment on it.

I am genuinely interested in helping people out on here as others have helped me in the past. As have you too - in places.

I've chosen to buy a car (dont have it yet) on the basis that it will be an everyday commuter as well as be a good car to take route the twisties when I want it too.

We obviously all dont have your money and liking for heavy nosed cars....


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

(My choice) is only better if thats what you want - the rest is bollox, but you love it. The simple fact is the 20T is a V6 MKII less the engine, lower spec, no quattro.

Why do you always assume money - maybe the money came from a dead relative, maybe im older than you and my outlay on the car is very little, maybe i get paid more than you, maybe im a lotto winner maybe i just stuck a quattro badge on the front and back upgraded the pipes and remapped it?

Maybe it is nose HEAVIER (V6) but its better balanced proportionally as a car - so to say nose heavy simply means you are either spouting MKI characteristics or you believe all the crap wrote by jurnos who don't know one end of a car from the other. Has anyone on here EVER said "test drove a MKII V6, felt nose heavy' - no!

Maybe you don't read too well?

Maybe the point about warranty could well be an issue

Maybe the recalls for the 20T and resulting ECU flash will just wipe out any map you put on.

Maybe the ed30 is different - i don't have a clue but i don't pretend to either. Other std maps exist I'm sure.

Maybe I'm enjoying winding you up.

Maybe I've run out of maybes - but maybe not.


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## benjones (Dec 4, 2006)

Toshiba said:


> Fook u.
> 
> do as you pls with you're underpowered fwd car.


Tosh is that really necessary. Go and hijack another thread.

cheechy - have you seen one of these GIAC remaps in action or know of any more info available online about em?


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## cheechy (Nov 8, 2006)

Ben I've driven Star's demo Leon 2.0T car (mentioned in the other thread) with the GIAC and found it pretty impressive.

Ok its not the same engine but the map in operation worked well in conjuction with a full Milltek and revised air filters. I believe the map is tailored to any mods you may want on the car as well.

Tosh - you're not winding me up I actually find it quite funny mate. Dont let me interrupt :lol:


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## cheechy (Nov 8, 2006)

Toshiba said:


> (My choice) is only better if thats what you want - the rest is bollox, but you love it. The simple fact is the 20T is a V6 MKII less the engine, lower spec, no quattro.
> 
> Why do you always assume money - maybe the money came from a dead relative, maybe im older than you and my outlay on the car is very little, maybe i get paid more than you, maybe im a lotto winner maybe i just stuck a quattro badge on the front and back upgraded the pipes and remapped it?
> 
> ...


Actually Tosh I wasnt gonna comment on what you've written but I cant help myself.

What a lot of Tosh! :lol: :lol:


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

maybe thats the point.


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## PAULTILFORD (Dec 6, 2006)

I dont know what it is with this Forum, I dont see it on others I visit, but it aint very nice - or helpfull, I thought this was a hobby we all enjoyed :?

Back on subject.I couldnt be happier with my O.CT map from U.K. Performance, I havent Dynoed the car but it feels much stronger than the figures in the Graph.


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## bootha2 (Oct 9, 2006)

just out of interest, what sort of economy are you getting out of your re-mapped cars compared to the std detup of the 2.0T.
I am getting between 35 and 45 depending on how heavy my right foot is. My average journey is about 75 miles mainly on Motorways and dual carriageways (lots of roundabouts)


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## R6B TT (Feb 25, 2003)

PAULTILFORD said:


> I dont know what it is with this Forum, I dont see it on others I visit, but it aint very nice - or helpfull, I thought this was a hobby we all enjoyed :?
> 
> Back on subject.I couldnt be happier with my O.CT map from U.K. Performance, I havent Dynoed the car but it feels much stronger than the figures in the Graph.


This is usually a friendly and helpful place. It's just Tosh (and some of his mates like Rebel) who conspire to make the Mk2 forum unpleasant sometimes.

One question for you though - how can your butt dyno be sure it is 'much stronger' than the dyno figures :?

Most of the 2.0T maps seem to give 40 - 50 extra BHP, and a similar amount of torque ft/lbs. For some reason, I got an extra dollop from AmD and finished up at 279 ft/lb


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## benjones (Dec 4, 2006)

Awesome GTI - only around the corner from me too


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## PAULTILFORD (Dec 6, 2006)

> One question for you though - how can your butt dyno be sure it is 'much stronger' than the dyno figures :?
> 
> All I know is how the car felt standard & how it feels now with the map - it transforms it.I had an Evo V a few years ago with over 300bhp - Im not saying its as quick as that but it aint far behind.
> 
> As far as MPG my car does 38mpg at a steady 80 & I guess around 30mpg normal driving


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## Godzilla (Feb 20, 2007)

benjones said:


> Also the guys at Awesome GTI were superb - only around the corner from me too


Hmm I went to Awesome bought a few bits and asked them to quote me for a fews mods. They promised to find out a few prices and give me a ring. Obviously the dont want my money as I never heard from them. So I will look elsewhere.

Oh and btw Toshiba if you have nothing to say except trying to put other cars down, why not do us all a favour and dont bother replying. Now waiting for another load of abusive drivel.


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## cheechy (Nov 8, 2006)

benjones said:


> Well I've just been to see the boys at Awesome GTI (main UK APR dealers) for them to take a copy of my ECU software to send to the States. Good news was when I got there they already had a map for the 2.0T TT variation and uploaded a 6 hour trial.
> 
> All I can say is WOWEEEEEEEE! The pull and acceleration is incredible in every single gear - I'm sold! I don't know what the exact figures are for the APR remap (will e-mail the States now to find out) but bejesus I didn't realise it would make this much difference.
> 
> Also the guys at Awesome GTI were superb - only around the corner from me too


Awesome (sorry forgive the pun) and hope you are happy with it. I suspect you'll miss the map once its gone  

Make sure you book the car back in for the permanent one!!

Can you post costs etc if possible to let people know - and details about ECU counters and dongle stuff etc if possible as I'm sure it'll help others thinking about going down the same route.

Cheers and have fun.


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## Arne (Dec 13, 2006)

I have had the BSR-PPC for a few months now, and I am very pleased.

The car pulls very strong in every gear, and it is very driveable for comuting as vell. I don't thing it uses any more fuel (as long as you don't use the extra BHP all the time), and for "steady driving" I actually think it uses less.

On German autobahn in eastern I got to test the top speed, and the digital speedo read 270 km/h (= 169 mph). The gps I had read 256 km/h (= 160 mph). If it had been a bit less trafic it might be that I could have gotten an even higher figure. And the car was very steady - almost like driving on rails.... :wink:

The car has done aprox 4.000 miles now, so I guess it has "loosend up".

I top up the oil the other day, and consumption has been aprox 0.2 litres.


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## Jimbo2 (Nov 30, 2006)

Thinking of doing this after a recent encounter with a '54 Leon R where S-tronic was the only thing keeping me in front. 

Is the Awesome mod the only one that is completely "warrenty safe"?

What kind of insurance hit would you expect for chipping the car?


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## R6B TT (Feb 25, 2003)

My insurance charged me Â£30 extra. I declared wheels, suspension, exhaust, remap etc all in one hit and the remap was the only thing which cost extra


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## cheechy (Nov 8, 2006)

Very cheap loading there - who are you with?


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## benjones (Dec 4, 2006)

Strange thing is if you look on the GIAC website http://www.giacusa.com/programs.php?mpid=171 it says "For optimum power gains the software must be coupled with a cold air intake, exhaust, and the latest factory upgraded rail pump (although GIAC offers software options for all factory rail pumps)". Mmmmm maybe GIAC have spotted a problem with the electronically controlled fuel pumps and released an update to that too


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## cheechy (Nov 8, 2006)

Sorry to hear and not good news. To be fair the TFSI Leon did have a Milltek and air filter on it but these are not required if you're not going for optimum performance.

I've not heard of the fueling issue before but I have heard about failing Diverter valves when remaps put more strain on them. However this is happening even without remaps.

Dont assume that just because APRs map doesnt work well that they are all the same! I know I'll be going for it soon after purchase and at the moment the GIAC is the preferred option along with a new Forge DV which can much better handle the higher boost pressures.

edit: and you could have told me you were coming up! :lol:


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## PaulManning (Nov 6, 2006)

benjones said:


> Evening guys and girls,
> 
> After reading all these stories about modified TTs recently I've decided it's time for a re-map. The urge for more power and speed is too great :twisted:
> 
> ...


Sorry for my ignorance, but what's a flash counter? This thread seems to be all about the 2.0 FSi. What are the possibilities for remap on the 3,2?


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## cheechy (Nov 8, 2006)

Flash counter is something that is built into the cars ECU. It records how many times the Eprom bult into the ECU has been updated. Therefore if unauthorised updates have occured then it is fairly easy for an Audi dealer to see this and potentially refuse warranty claims.

The 3.2 can have modifications but because it is normally aspirated the options for greater power gains are much less - maybe at around 5-10bhp at a guess.

The greater gains on the 2.0 TFSI are down to the gains from boost pressures along with timing / fueling.

Hope this helps and anyone please feel free to correct above!


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

Remap for 3.2 is 20bhp, but I'm told the gains are much better than the numbers look. pm wak he's doing them via vagcheck and at a good price :wink: .

If you want to dial up the power on the V6 350bhp is no problem just add a turbo. MTM do a 375kit from memory with rumours of even bigger ones on the way.

DSG maybe a problem tho - but the message is mixed on this front. We are told, but ive no idea how true it is that DSG can't handle more than 250bhp. But i know MKIs are running around with more. So who knows.


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## R6B TT (Feb 25, 2003)

cheechy said:


> Very cheap loading there - who are you with?


Frizzell / Liverpool Victoria


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## cheechy (Nov 8, 2006)

Thanks.


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## y2_dyc (Jan 15, 2007)

what kinda 0-60 times does the remap change to, is it by much? Dan


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## p-torque.co.uk (Sep 12, 2006)

Hi Guys

Hope you dont me adding that we have now done alot of work on the 2.0T unit.

The P-Torque re-map is Â£350 all in, or Â£395 with before and after rolling road power runs.

Gains are 40bhp -50bhp and approx +75NM of torque.

Cheers


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## cheechy (Nov 8, 2006)

Mr P-Torque - does your map increment the flash counter?

I only ask because I would not now be going for a map that did this. Personal preference I know but some dealers are now wise to this and its very easy for them to check to see if a car has been remapped this way.

Thanks.


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## p-torque.co.uk (Sep 12, 2006)

cheechy said:


> Mr P-Torque - does your map increment the flash counter?
> 
> I only ask because I would not now be going for a map that did this. Personal preference I know but some dealers are now wise to this and its very easy for them to check to see if a car has been remapped this way.
> 
> Thanks.


Hi There

Yes it does.

When we talk about counter resets, its not the re-map (or programming) itself, its the tool used to read/write the data which does or does not do it.

But yes, when flashed the counter is reset by us


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## cheechy (Nov 8, 2006)

Great thanks for the info


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## p-torque.co.uk (Sep 12, 2006)

Hold on a second, I've just realised....

where has this counter info come from? Newer diesels, (EDC16) have counter, the MED9 used in the 2.0 TFSI models do not have a counter


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## cheechy (Nov 8, 2006)

Thats interesting

I've been getting information to the contrary. Is this a definite in the TT then?


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## p-torque.co.uk (Sep 12, 2006)

cheechy said:


> Thats interesting
> 
> I've been getting information to the contrary. Is this a definite in the TT then?


It is indeed. Where are you getting the info?


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## benjones (Dec 4, 2006)

I can say 100% for definite there are TWO flash counters on the TT Mk2 ECU. One is secured and one is not.


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## mohan (Mar 15, 2007)

cheechy said:


> Thats the real issue here Tosh
> 
> You seem to take great pleasure in making sure people know you bought the 'better car' at every opportunity.


the better car... not according to evo, top gear, fifth gear, autotrader, and just about every other motoring magazine out there!!!!!!!!!

all of them say the 2.0 is the better's drivers car.....

i am coming from an e39 m5, and the same argumement could be applied when this was compared with the rs6... latter had more power and quattro, but e39 was the king... end of.


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## benjones (Dec 4, 2006)

mohan said:


> the better car... not according to evo, top gear, fifth gear, autotrader, and just about every other motoring magazine out there!!!!!!!!!
> 
> all of them say the 2.0 is the better's drivers car.....
> 
> i am coming from an e39 m5, and the same argumement could be applied when this was compared with the rs6... latter had more power and quattro, but e39 was the king... end of.


How has this got anything to do with remaps?


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## mohan (Mar 15, 2007)

benjones said:


> How has this got anything to do with remaps?


nothing. just joined the earlier debate late...

regards remaps, i am going for superchips as they chip all of VW-uk racings cars so must have a wealth of data etc, lots of insider info, and most improtantly, the ability to strip down engines after a race blow out to assess any damage and why.... maybe that's why they offer a warranty and do not give similar gains to customer's cars as the race cars.


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## benjones (Dec 4, 2006)

mohan said:


> regards remaps, i am going for chip company as they chip all of VW-uk racings cars so must have a wealth of data etc, lots of insider info, and most improtantly, the ability to strip down engines after a race blow out to assess any damage and why.... maybe that's why they offer a warranty and do not give similar gains to customer's cars as the race cars.


Yeah true.


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## cheechy (Nov 8, 2006)

mohan said:


> cheechy said:
> 
> 
> > Thats the real issue here Tosh
> ...


To be fair I do quite like the 3.2 - nice sounds and quattro. I just couldnt stomach the running costs!


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## cheechy (Nov 8, 2006)

mohan said:


> benjones said:
> 
> 
> > How has this got anything to do with remaps?
> ...


edit: Cool because its a brand name that does not sponsor ******** the name is being substitued with *chip company*.

Very clever!


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## cheechy (Nov 8, 2006)

benjones said:


> I can say 100% for definite there are TWO flash counters on the TT Mk2 ECU. One is secured and one is not. I've seen them for my own eyes when I went to try a GIAC remap yesterday at Racetech UK. Flash wasn't successful though - susposedly because of the previous APR remap :x
> 
> When the GIAC flash reader software connected to my car it threw up a warning that my ECU had non standard software on it!! Awesome told me it was 100% undetectable - bollocks is it, even after my trial period is over! GIAC were still able to offer the correct software regardless but when flashing back to the car it wouldn't work. This is where you could see the 2 flash counters which the GIAC software reset to zero for me
> 
> ...


Ben this is a tough one. Would it not be possible for APR / Awesome to put the car back to the way it was - surely it is their responsibilty to do so if you do not wish to go ahead with the permanent map?

Then again do you really want to take the car back there?

Let us know how you get on and sorry to hear you're getting so much hassle for something which should be soo good


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

None of the Golfs have gone pop with 45bhp extra.


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## piloTT (Jan 19, 2004)

Slightly off subject I know but someone may know...

Do any of the following have any impact on the ECU flash counters?

Using VAGCOM

1. changing the service intervals from fixed to variable
2. checking (only) the ECU software coding
2. checking for fault codes
3. Clearing fault codes

The reason I ask is that I took mine in today for the ECU software update that was due, and on completion was asked if the car had been remapped (which it has not) but something must have looked out of place. the only things done being the items listed above.


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## cheechy (Nov 8, 2006)

I'm guessing here but I would have thought that the only thin that would change the update status would be things that write to the ECU.

Therefore I would have thought that changing the service interval and clearing error codes may have triggered an update showing up - what is alarming though is that this is not a software change - just a change in the parameters for an existing program


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## R6B TT (Feb 25, 2003)

piloTT said:


> Slightly off subject I know but someone may know...
> 
> Do any of the following have any impact on the ECU flash counters?
> 
> ...


That's interesting.

I'm a bit concerned that when mine goes in for the update it may overwrite the remap - and since AmD have gone pop and been bought by BBT I can't easily get it flashed back to stock and then reapplied


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## piloTT (Jan 19, 2004)

My worry is that they might(?) refuse a warrenty claim if they claim that unauthorised work has been carried out. The iroic thing is that the car went back in shortly after delivey because it was not on variable service intervals as requested. Several days later I noticed the "time to service" indications were exactly the same as befor, so rather than another wasted 60 mile journey for them (not) to do it again. I checked with vagcom and indeed it was still on fixed servicing so I ended up changing it myself.

Now, because I had to do their work that they should have done. I could possibly have problems with any engine related warrenty claim :?


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## cheechy (Nov 8, 2006)

I wouldnt worry too much here. You've not reprogrammed the ECU as such and all you have done is change a couple of parameters because the dealer was too incompetent.

They are really only bothered about remaps and mods - they wouldnt have leg to stand on with this. I wouldnt imagine any dealer wanting to take you to task for this.

Wouldnt be the first time I was wrong though so dont quote me!


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## benjones (Dec 4, 2006)

R6B TT said:


> I'm a bit concerned that when mine goes in for the update it may overwrite the remap - and since AmD have gone pop and been bought by BBT I can't easily get it flashed back to stock and then reapplied


It will definitely overwrite your AmD remap. Speak to BBT they should reflash for free?


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## piloTT (Jan 19, 2004)

ROB

In that case I would not bother taking it in for the update if you know it will wipe your existing map. OR if you then have it Re- re-mapped (after the Audi update), it will wipe the upgraded Audi sofware just done.

It just strikes me that most of the remappers claim that it is un-detectable..... BU11SHIT!


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## Arne (Dec 13, 2006)

After reading this whole thread, it is a few things that strikes me.

First of all - the risk of getting any major engine/drivetrain-problems because of a step 1 tune-up, is almost like zero. The 2.0T engine is known to be an more or less "problem free" engine.

And in worst case should anything happen, it's not certain that the workshop will pay any attention to a remap if it has been done.

So if one compare this risk to other risks one takes when out having fun with the car, I would say that for those who want some extra BHP and torque to "play" with, this is a risk that is worth taking.

Regards the "problem" of chosing the best remap, it is a few things that is worth taken into consideration. And the reason for why I chose the BSR/PPC are as follows:

- They have many years of experience with VAG engines.
- They are known as a serious company which delivers high quality software engine management products.
- They do well in all the test I have read.
- They do financially very well and they are not a "small" company.
- Their products are well tested, and they have delivered this specific product (remap) for the VAG 2.0T since this engine first came out in other car modells.
- You can do the remap yourself, and change it back to the original as often as you want (ref the problem regarding service and official ECU upgrades where the remap is overwritten).
- When a new software is released from Audi (for implementing on services as a standard upgrade), BSR makes a new software remap version that includes the upgrade, and this is then available through internett to download to your PPC-unit for free.

This is the second time I uses BSR/PPC remap on an Audi, and I have experienced no reason not to continue to do so in future Audi models that I might buy....


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

But wont Audi just flash the ecu Automatically when the car goes for service? The system will say the recall is outstanding, hence at this point I'm guessing they will see it's not a std map.

Suppose you can/could opt out of the flash, but that might start alarm bells sounding at the dealership too.

This is why i like the oneclick type.

I had to pay the TTshop to put my original map back on the MKI when i had it done and wanted to trade in my car. Even tho i distinctly remember them saying it was free to revert back!


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## R6B TT (Feb 25, 2003)

Hmm a PM to the Wakmeister is in order I think to see what he suggests


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## R6B TT (Feb 25, 2003)

Hmm a PM to the Wakmeister is in order I think to see what he suggests


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