# Road "Privatisation" - have your say



## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

Here's one that affects us all. I heard on the Today programme yesterday that the government are looking to lease our road's maintenance to private companies - taking it away from the Highways Agency and effectively privatising the maintenance and upkeep of our roads.

They say that existing roads will not be allowed to charge tolls that that this would only apply to new roads and those that have had "improvement work" done to them. The obvious danger is what is meant by "improvement work" and that we could end up finding it difficult to travel without paying a toll in addition to our road tax. What road doesn't get "improved" in time? They want to raise revenue for investment so I can't see things getting cheaper. Is this the right model to use though?

Also revealed on the programme was that the existing M6 toll road was making a loss. I wonder if that's because people don't like paying tolls? There seems to be a misconception too that we can road build our way out of congestion. Do we really want a system like in France where those who can afford it use the tolled motorways - great for tourists who see it as a one off holiday expense even though it seems to double the cost of travel - but locals don't use them.

Am I too simplistic thinking that the greatest efficiency should be achieved with central government control rather than a system of licencing and duplication of administrational bodies like the railways and a false market like they've tried to do with water and power?

I somewhat hurredly started an e-petition on the Downing Street website to oppose this move. Feel free to sign it and post your views for or against.

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/31565


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## slineTT (Feb 24, 2006)

My fellow Brits, I am sure you know very well that only UK has no or very few tolls on roads. Most European countries have tolls and the French example comes into mind. Yes it is expensive to drive in France, but I have seen worse tarmac on F1 race tracks than the French roads. The French roads are superb but you pay for them.

Now, the case where existing roads will turn into toll roads is unacceptable, unless of course we don't pay the road tax anymore. So it will be a pay as you drive kind of road tax.
But if private companies build NEW roads, for example the M26, then tolls are unavoidable. Yes it will create roads for rich and poor, but at least the poor will have less congestion, the rich will pay and go faster and there will be loads of jobs created. 
I can not possibly understand where the Europeans have made it work, the Brits see mountains to climb......... :?


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## antcole (Apr 4, 2009)

I agree that there is a dire need to update or improve the quality of our road networks across the UK.
The volume of traffic has increased to an immense level, placing huge strain on the maintenace requirements for our roads.
We need better roads, thats a fact..... and i have to beg the question - where does the road duty and fuel duty really go when we are now paying such high rates?
The cost of maintaining our roads should be subsidised by this road duty, surely?
I dont have a problem with the roads being privatised, but i do have a problem with continuing to pay road tax/duty when i would also be required to pay as much or more on top with annual road toll fees.

Simple solution, drop the government road duty on all cars, charge for actual road use via toll systems and pay for what you use.
The problem is that the state collects this fee from our road duty and it clearly ends up being used elsewhere, thus if its scrapped, it would leave a massive hole in state coffers..... so, its never going to happen.
On that basis, i say no to road privatisation and increased costs for motoring and motorists.


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## audi_tt 83 (Feb 13, 2008)

in my opinion road tax should be scrapped and instead place 3p per litre on fuel. the people that dont do many miles will be better off, the people that do average mileage will pay around the same, and the people that do high mileage will pay more. This is the only fair way to do it, then the people that ware the roads out by doing 50,000 miles in a prius will pay for the upkeep of the roads.

If the government are serious about cutting conjestion it would be silly for private companies to make new toll roads as this will then encourage people to drive through towns where it will still be free.


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## TTSPORT666 (Dec 1, 2011)

In france they do not have road tax. But as we know they pay road tolls on the motorways. As previously stated the road surface quality is astounding. The roads in the uk are mostly terrible. Down here in sussex they are a joke! And we still pay a fortune for road tax?? really does my head in!! In france there are always N roads you can take if you wish to avoid the toll motorways as an alternative! Because we are a smaller country im not sure if we would have this option? Its an absolute pleasure driving in france, and to have road surfaces in the uk as they do would be a dream. I hope the final outcome is essentially a fairer system and it does lead to better roads. God knows it cant get any worse!

Damien.


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## Gone (May 5, 2009)

Private company builds a road. Private company charges for use of road. Private company makes some money to invest in upgrade and maintenance of road. That works, provided the tolls are set to an acceptable level to encourage use of road.

Private company takes over ownership of raod. provate company invests millions of pounds in road, repairing worn surfaces, creating emergency run-offs etc and generally improving the road for all users. PC charges for use of road, etc etc
Bit of a pain if it's a road you use, but you can see the point and the business model.

It breaks down when private company takes over ownership of road and spends money not on long term improvements bu on basic fit-for-purpose maintenance. Where is the profit margin for that? What's the incentive? Is the idea that the tolls from new roads will cover this cost? How many new roads are we envisaging?

I can see huge costs on top of VED and fuel duty.

I will also say if you want to charge people by the mile, scrap VED and up fuel duty; or scrap fuel duty and charge VED based on miles covered between MOTs and/or change of vehicle notification. Don't spend a load of money building bloody great big tolling areas, causing congestion and queues etc where there were none.


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## Gone (May 5, 2009)

audi_tt 83 said:


> If the government are serious about cutting conjestion it would be silly for private companies to make new toll roads as this will then encourage people to drive through towns where it will still be free.


This is the other side of the coin. What do you do if you object to/can't afford the tolls? You use A and B roads. Traffic goes up in towns and villages. More accidents, etc etc.


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## TT_Paul (Feb 6, 2012)

I thought were suppose to be getting all eco friendly?

If the A11 turned into a toll road for example I'd use the old A11 which runs along side, driving slower through quiet Norfolk villages creating more miles, more emissions, taking more time and using more fuel.

So where's the logic in that? 
There will also be older poorer people using cars with higher emissions using quiet country roads reducing congrestions just because its the cheapest way to go A-B
The last time i used the M62 toll it was dead.. and the M62 was congested as usual I'm sure it'll be much the same if they do introduce toll roads

Saying that.... I wouldnt mind paying to go on unrestricted toll roads  but I doubt they'll happen!


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

Well no wonder the toll roads are good in France - because nobody uses them! Well relatively speaking obviously.

Basically it's simple - a certain amount of money gets spent by government on roads on an ongoing basis so with the level of traffic and use we have, the roads are in the given state they are.

Given that scenario, if we want better roads we need to spend more money to improve them at a faster rate before they wear out or use them less so they last longer and the existing money is given a chance to raise the standard. Simple.

There is the possibility of improving the efficiency of the administration but my point here is that privatising the administration will lead to fragmentation, duplication of administration, profiteering and beaurocratic tiers of inefficiency over and above what we currently have along with the diverting away of the road fund licence or fuel duty that the government currently and will continue to do. Look at the railways. Look at power generation. Ask yourself is this best run and planned centrally or thrown to the winds of market forces with the inevitable government "safeguards" (read beurocracy and false market creation to satisfy a political motive). Beware!

Roads that have tolls will be smooth and little used by the few who can afford them. Roads that don't have tolls will become pot holed congested rat runs of the majority.


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

John, in reality the roads are only bad due to lack of planned maintenance!!! gov take my £600plus per year for my 3 works vans plus fuel duty costs and they use it elswhere. oh and that is ignoring the TT that does under 3k a year max.....

so on a breakdown in my case i can only drive one vehicle at any one given time so basically am paying 3x the average person to the gov.....four if you include the TT and get bugger all in return except all of this bullshit to make money or cop out of spending money. tossers in sheeps clothing in my view


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## DrrnCour (Dec 1, 2011)

audi_tt 83 said:


> in my opinion road tax should be scrapped and instead place 3p per litre on fuel. the people that dont do many miles will be better off, the people that do average mileage will pay around the same, and the people that do high mileage will pay more. This is the only fair way to do it, then the people that ware the roads out by doing 50,000 miles in a prius will pay for the upkeep of the roads.
> 
> If the government are serious about cutting conjestion it would be silly for private companies to make new toll roads as this will then encourage people to drive through towns where it will still be free.


This would never work. So many companies are going out of business due to the increase in petrol prices, and this would onl increase this effect. Yes they would save on road tax, but the additional duty on fuel would more then swollowed up the saving.

I agree that the roads need sorting, and some privatisation needs to go ahead. Heres a toll road in Dulwich, London I simply drive around it adding 2 minutes onto my journey.

What we need to do is stop the free handouts to everyone to lazy to get a job, or people who claim asylum with no attention of working. This would free up billions in revenue to fill the coffers up.


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## j4zz_x (Jan 17, 2009)

Private roads won't work here, the prices will go up every year like the congestion charge or rail fares. The routes which will get hit in London athe going to be like the m25, a406 etc where they already have plans to improve them (but not for the better). The a406 has been upgrade over the last few years to make way for the Olympics and new stadiums and shopping centres. These changes don't help anyone living locally nor do they help with traffic (lower speeds causing more backups).
The a406 now has special lanes for buses(which cars can not use, and I bet the bus companies will pay jack), roads in the town centres have been widen to allow trucks and hgv's to go though to stop traffic on the A roads(but puts more fumes on ppls door steps).


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## Tritium (Apr 25, 2011)

I don't care how I pay for road maintenance. In the end (in a ideal world) I want every penny invested back to the road system. My only concern here is that *more* of my contribution will go as share dividends and not roads. We live in a time of financial paradigms so any solution is worth consideration.


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## les (Jul 24, 2006)

slineTT said:


> My fellow Brits, I am sure you know very well that only UK has no or very few tolls on roads. Most European countries have tolls and the French example comes into mind. Yes it is expensive to drive in France, but I have seen worse tarmac on F1 race tracks than the French roads. The French roads are superb but you pay for them.


Yeah and we pay road tax and fuel tax that gets spent not on roads but goes to support lots of other government agencies.



slineTT said:


> Now, the case where existing roads will turn into toll roads is unacceptable, unless of course we don't pay the road tax anymore. So it will be a pay as you drive kind of road tax.


Not a dog in hells chance IMO that the government would scarp road tax at least until every car has some sort of tracking devise fitted so you would pay per mile.



slineTT said:


> But if private companies build NEW roads, for example the M26, then tolls are unavoidable. Yes it will create roads for rich and poor, but at least the poor will have less congestion, the rich will pay and go faster and there will be loads of jobs created.


Yes they would be unavoidable but then that's more privatisation. The health service today roads tomorrow. Does joe public want private roads well he sure didn't with the M6 toll. The government of course will never ask, I wonder why. :roll:


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## les (Jul 24, 2006)

badyaker said:


> Private company builds a road. Private company charges for use of road. Private company makes some money to invest in upgrade and maintenance of road. That works, provided the tolls are set to an acceptable level to encourage use of road.
> 
> Private company takes over ownership of raod. provate company invests millions of pounds in road, repairing worn surfaces, creating emergency run-offs etc and generally improving the road for all users. PC charges for use of road, etc etc
> Bit of a pain if it's a road you use, but you can see the point and the business model.
> ...


You are forgetting private companies operate to make a profit and to give share holders big dividends and profits on their investments. Do you really think all the money they make will go into new roads or maintaining existing ones?


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## burns (Jun 2, 2009)

I'm very interested in the proposal, but haven't yet made a final decision, although I'm leaning towards being pro-privatisation at the moment.

The reason is that the government currently doesn't spend the funds generated from our road tax payments on the roads. The money seems go on anything except maintaining the road network; it's all too easy to just "dip in" to the fund when you're running a bit short on another budget. When you have a private company dealing with nothing but roads, it will be a case of focussing on the job in hand, and they (hopefully) won't have another business interest to support. You've also got the fact that the public sector just seems to have a massive amount of wastage in terms of money and resources. A private company isn't going to wear the current level of wastage; after all, they have shareholders to keep happy. So hopefully road maintenance would be more efficient, and the quality of the roads would be higher (how I envy the French for their roads!).

One of the drawbacks is the risk of increased cost, so that we might reminisce about the heady days of paying "only" £260 a year on road tax. There's also the other side of the shareholders issue; they can be both a blessing and a curse, as the counter argument to their existence referred to above is that prices to motorists could increase but spending on the roads be reduced, so as to ensure greater dividends for the shareholders. That said, however, customer complaints would then increase, which companies don't like, and they may therefore be more customer-focussed.

As for whether toll roads would become commonplace, for years I've believed that the only fair way to calculate the cost of road use for each motorist is to add it to the price of fuel. What on earth does the CO2 output matter to road use?? I do about 15k miles per year; why should someone who does only 3k miles pay the same level of road tax as me just because we both drive a TT? :roll:


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## merlin c (Jan 25, 2012)

audi_tt 83 said:


> in my opinion road tax should be scrapped and instead place 3p per litre on fuel. the people that dont do many miles will be better off, the people that do average mileage will pay around the same, and the people that do high mileage will pay more. This is the only fair way to do it, then the people that ware the roads out by doing 50,000 miles in a prius will pay for the upkeep of the roads.
> 
> If the government are serious about cutting conjestion it would be silly for private companies to make new toll roads as this will then encourage people to drive through towns where it will still be free.


Nice idea, but not thought out very well. Over 90% of freight once it arrives in this country goes by road, not rail or sea bound, thus, increase in fuel duty again by 3 pence and BANG!! up goes food, clothing, bus travel, and any sort of item that requires haulage on our roads, until our rail network is up to European standards with a great deal of night time freight being moved then hiking fuel to obtain more revenue off normal car road users just hurts everyone, including the elderly and people without cars. The dilemma is, reduce duty for hauliers so that goods are cheaper but then the haulage industry would increase causing even more damage to our roads, see, its complicated but I agree with other posts, spend road tax revenue on the road, not bailing out w(b)ankers.


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

burns said:


> ... The reason is that the government currently doesn't spend the funds generated from our road tax payments on the roads. The money seems go on anything except maintaining the road network; it's all too easy to just "dip in" to the fund when you're running a bit short on another budget. When you have a private company dealing with nothing but roads, it will be a case of focussing on the job in hand, and they (hopefully) won't have another business interest to support. You've also got the fact that the public sector just seems to have a massive amount of wastage in terms of money and resources. A private company isn't going to wear the current level of wastage; after all, they have shareholders to keep happy. So hopefully road maintenance would be more efficient, and the quality of the roads would be higher (how I envy the French for their roads!). ...


Sarah, if the government dip into the road fund at present for other things do you really think they would leave themselves without this resource as a result of privatising roads? Leave themselves out of pocket? 

Do you really think that adding in shareholder investment profit motive will save money? Cost plus more margin = err more!

Do you really think that duplication of management across competing companies and the tiers of beauocracy introduced to control the greed and regulate planning, approval and inspection will reduce cost of administration? Look at the railways and what a dog's breakfast of competing nonsense we have there. Did you know that every day in the power industry there is a waste of energy due to an false market auction process whereby competing power stations offer a price for their electricity and at the last minute one of them wins and the others, who all don't know who will win before hand, had to prepare for peak demand by stoking the boilers up, then vent steam? Efficiency? It's a joke. We should naturally be operating a national grid with central planning for best efficiency not introducing political doctrine. As I said, the French roads are only good because no bu**er uses them. It's not like they use magic private tarmac or something :roll: :wink:


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## burns (Jun 2, 2009)

Hence the reason I'm still undecided!


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

Well it's an interesting debate at least and so much of it is interdependent and obscurred from proper scrutiny - it's hard to see the knock on effects or trust the rationalle driving it.


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## antcole (Apr 4, 2009)

It is a good debate and i feel that privatised roads will be much better and well maintained.
The rail networks vastly improved after being privatised..... but at a cost to rail users.

I signed the e-petition but without wishing to sound defeatist, it will happen and we motorists will carry the burden of extra cost.
If road duty were scrapped or hugely reduced, i would happily pay for tolls when using the roads.

Sadly we know very well that the road duty wont be dropped and paying for road use will be incurred on top of an already extortionate cost for state road duty.

Motorists in Ireland pay huge rates for road duty and the Irish government are fined annually by the EU for charging too much, but the revenue is far greater than the fine and they still profit.
Nobody is better off really but the fact that people need their cars and love their cars means that people will pay anything necessary to keep mobile.
Ive had some nasty experiences with companies like E-Flow tolls, being charged over 200 quid for an actual toll invoice of less than 15 quid....
Admittedly, they were charges incurred for late payment and always managed to negotiate back to the original fee..... but they do intimidate drivers and make it easy to increase their invoicing.... 
Thats where were headed i fear....


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## glslang (Dec 5, 2009)

slineTT said:


> The French roads are superb but you pay for them.


Drive L'Aquitaine towards Spain and is appalling. It's also 3 tolls in a row. A total daylight robbery for that piece of tarmac. Privatisation of roads is bad. Providing a concession to certain roads so they can be maintained perhaps not so bad. You Brits can decide that.

However, more and more we're being bumped off the roads and to crazy expensive public transport systems. That didn't work so well in Britain imho.

Also don't forget that in Britain the majority of goods transport is done by road afaik so a bad idea for the economy. Raising fuel taxes is also bad for hauling companies and for those out in the sticks that rely on a car to get to places.

Not to mention that the cheapest option for tolls would be some sort of an electronic system so another bit of kit in the car or prepaid a la congestion charge.

As I say unsure if all is needed at this stage. Britain is not faring that badly economically.


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## Wallsendmag (Feb 12, 2004)

Make everyone travel by train it's cheap fast and reasonably priced

Sent from my Nokia 5146
using Tapatalk


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## les (Jul 24, 2006)

Wallsendmag said:


> Make everyone travel by train it's cheap fast and reasonably priced
> 
> Sent from my Nokia 5146
> using Tapatalk


Great Idea Andrew. Then we would not have to pay road tax, we would have no need for cars at all, we wouldn't need to repair or build new roads. no need for petrol. no garages, no repair bills, people would be fitter due to walking more road raid deaths. kinder on the environment etc etc etc. Just think of the money that would be saved. I think you have hit on the perfect solution but there maybe a drawback or two with your eureka idea but I am sure we could get round them. :wink: Vote for Andrew for PM this guy knows his stuff.


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## Gone (May 5, 2009)

There is already a system in place for measuring people's annual mileage. It's called the MOT database. Provided the mileage is also recorded when cars change hands (if not already done then a simple amendmant to change of ownership forms and a legal requirement to disclose sorts this) it's easy. Slap on a mileage charge of say 1.5p per mile, people get their bill through the post a couple of weeks after the MOT and can pay by direct debit upfront , over the phone or by monthly installment - exactly as the current system works. Cheap, fair, transparent - but ONLY if it replaces the current VED scheme and the money is allocated for road maintenance.

1.5p/mile x 12000 miles/year = £180/yr


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## les (Jul 24, 2006)

badyaker said:


> There is already a system in place for measuring people's annual mileage. It's called the MOT database. Provided the mileage is also recorded when cars change hands (if not already done then a simple amendmant to change of ownership forms and a legal requirement to disclose sorts this) it's easy. Slap on a mileage charge of say 1.5p per mile, people get their bill through the post a couple of weeks after the MOT and can pay by direct debit upfront , over the phone or by monthly installment - exactly as the current system works. Cheap, fair, transparent - but ONLY if it replaces the current VED scheme and the money is allocated for road maintenance.
> 
> 1.5p/mile x 12000 miles/year = £180/yr


So what about the clockers? :? Sounds like a recipe for more fraud to me.


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## Gone (May 5, 2009)

Tiny proportion of all the cars on the road. There'll always be one or two. Are you suggesting the current or proposed systems are perfect?


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## les (Jul 24, 2006)

badyaker said:


> Tiny proportion of all the cars on the road.


Tiny proportion now yes but if you use the mileage off speedometers as a way as collecting taxes well .......... :roll: 


badyaker said:


> There'll always be one or two.


One or two :? you cannot be serious :lol:



badyaker said:


> Are you suggesting the current or proposed systems are perfect?


Am I :? How do you recon that then? Sheeeshhhh :roll:


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## Gone (May 5, 2009)

Well the implication was that my suggestion was not as good as what we have now. Yeah some cars are clocked these days and probably more will be... but

I would suggest the revenue lost through clocking would pale into insignificance against the cost of (a) retrofitting every vehicle on the road with a GPS receiver or (b) installing a nationwide ANPR network - every road, every mile, everywhere. Those are the only other relatively tamper-proof ways to track people's mileage. Apart from asking people to voluntarily log their journeys on a big government database. :roll:

Building toll stations everywhere and recouping the cost through swingeing tolls wouldn't cost any public cash, but I don't consider that a sensible option and I'm not suggesting that.


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## les (Jul 24, 2006)

badyaker said:


> Well the implication was that my suggestion was not as good as what we have now. Yeah some cars are clocked these days and probably more will be... but


No such implication was even hinted at.



badyaker said:


> I would suggest the revenue lost through clocking would pale into insignificance against the cost of (a) retrofitting every vehicle on the road with a GPS receiver or (b) installing a nationwide ANPR network - every road, every mile, everywhere.


IMO you are wrong but of course you entitled to your opinion.

IMO you are wrong but of c ourse you entitled to your opinion.



badyaker said:


> Those are the only other relatively tamper-proof ways to track people's mileage. Apart from asking people to voluntarily log their journeys on a big government database. :roll:


Asking to get people to voluntary do so is rather silly suggestion I have to agree so why even mention it. :? 


badyaker said:


> Building toll stations everywhere and recouping the cost through swingeing tolls wouldn't cost any public cash, but I don't consider that a sensible option and I'm not suggesting that.


My cash is public cash isn't it so do you think MY cash wouldn't be used to build them also MY cash would go into these companies profits and into share holders pockets etc.


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## Gone (May 5, 2009)

les said:


> My cash is public cash isn't it so do you think MY cash wouldn't be used to build them also MY cash would go into these companies profits and into share holders pockets etc.


Not if the private company pays for the build and recoups the expense by charging tolls. You just have to opt to not use the tolled roads.


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## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

antcole said:


> It is a good debate and i feel that privatised roads will be much better and well maintained.
> The rail networks vastly improved after being privatised..... but at a cost to rail users.


You have got to be kidding right? The railways around here are diabolical, the tracks are run by another company and the train companies don't appear to talk to the track owners. The end result is the chaos and the expensive poor service we get.

Same thing with utilities. Split them up, give them each a hierarchy of overpaid grande fromages and you get shareholders demanding dividends at the expense of a proper service at a fair price.

Then we have hospitals funded by PPIs for which we will all be paying over the odds for many years.

Privatising roads is just another in a long line of cock-ups waiting to happen. Private companies want profit. They will not do anything without extracting their margin first. The end result will be lack of funding and then a hand out from the tax payer to sort it all out.

It won't work. Never has done. Never will.


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## les (Jul 24, 2006)

badyaker said:


> les said:
> 
> 
> > My cash is public cash isn't it so do you think MY cash wouldn't be used to build them also MY cash would go into these companies profits and into share holders pockets etc.
> ...


Oh dear :roll:


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## Gone (May 5, 2009)

les said:


> Oh dear :roll:


OK Les look I think privatisation and tolling is not the way to get more investment into the road network and neither is it the best way to charge motorists by the mile. The idea of pay as you drive is not wholly distasteful but I can see it costing us a lot more if it's not done sensibly. I've put forward one possible alternative solution - obviously you disagree, but I don't think the grounds you put forward for disagreement are realistic. We'll never know who's right until/unless it happens so let's drop it. Life's too short!

Hope you guys have a good run today. Peace etc.


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## merlin c (Jan 25, 2012)

badyaker said:


> les said:
> 
> 
> > Oh dear :roll:
> ...


Well done Les and Badyaker, real bitching, scram your eyes out stuff... [smiley=furious3.gif]...Loved it, don't stop now :lol:


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## Gone (May 5, 2009)

I heard the Pug RCZ forum is a good place for a proper catfight...

:lol:


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## merlin c (Jan 25, 2012)

badyaker said:


> I heard the Pug RCZ forum is a good place for a proper catfight...
> 
> :lol:


I think you would fit in just fine:- permet de jeter un catfight tt / rcz :lol: :lol:


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## tomd1338 (May 1, 2012)

I really can't see how this would work ON TOP of road tax.. paying out around £250 a year and then being told that the tax you pay on fuel/road/income/purchases doesnt cover the costs of roads anymore and you have to pay little more on top to actually DRIVE your car. [smiley=bigcry.gif]


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## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

tomd1338 said:


> I really can't see how this would work ON TOP of road tax.. paying out around £250 a year and then being told that the tax you pay on fuel/road/income/purchases doesnt cover the costs of roads anymore... [smiley=bigcry.gif]


It doesn't cover it because they don't spend the revenues raised on the roads. It goes on all sorts of other things. Personally I think that is wrong. It used to be called the Road Fund Licence and that is exactly what it should be.


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## dbbloke (Jan 30, 2012)

No to road tolls until the current roads are all replaced.

Having just driven from UK to Ukraine and back, the first thing that hit me (even considering Flemmish Roads seem terrible compared to the rest of Europe), The UK roads are REALLY BAD. Why is there a seam in the road every 5-10m ?? How come the rest of Europe builds a road and never ever sees a need to dig it up.
And how come, some of the surfaces in Germany increase my MPG counter like 10-15%, same in Poland. mpg went from 44.1 to 49.4/51.0 !! Just because of s road surface, so the govt make more money from fuel because roads are crap.
I guess it keeps people in work in garages for balancing/tracking/suspension/alloys/tyres etc..
Amazing nobody has sued the UK govt for damages to suspension, this might spur them into action also.

If the UK had autobahns, I would now have the motivation for a half mill job / start my own company. I need an expensive fast car to drive on the new UK autobahn.

Sigh....
Toll roads, they half work and aren't the real solution but can of course help IF the price is LOW and set in stone more or less but also the standard UK roads need fixing.

The only solution I could come up with is.. Setup a website. On it have a section for ALL taxes. Specifically, something like:

Income for motoring/transport
Petrol tax 135%
Road Tax
Registrations / admin stuff

Expenditure on transport Infrastructure
pot holes
planned motoways/new roads

ALSO 
Income for transport and where it got spent if not above (I'm a database / information expert).

Maybe I'll get time one day to do this.

This way you could have income for specific things and where the money goes. They people have real facts and can get upset and complain if it's not being spent where it should. Perhaps they would suddenly think - shit, the health service is ruining everything, lets have a model where unemployed get contributions to help medicals, everyone else gets company to contribute 3%. Australian health worked so well, I think to open peoples eyes with real facts is the key to the real solution.


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## wireless (Jan 24, 2012)

Gazzer said:


> John, in reality the roads are only bad due to lack of planned maintenance!!! gov take my £600plus per year for my 3 works vans plus fuel duty costs and they use it elswhere. oh and that is ignoring the TT that does under 3k a year max.....
> 
> so on a breakdown in my case i can only drive one vehicle at any one given time so basically am paying 3x the average person to the gov.....four if you include the TT and get bugger all in return except all of this bullshit to make money or cop out of spending money. tossers in sheeps clothing in my view


+1 ^

John-h is also right about fuel and road tax will continue to go up and up an up!.

I'm definitely against those changes!. This government is a money hungry bunch of *****! Who will bleed us dry!.


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## Leebo310 (Sep 22, 2011)

rustyintegrale said:


> antcole said:
> 
> 
> > It is a good debate and i feel that privatised roads will be much better and well maintained.
> ...


+1


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## Nickie-Noo (Apr 18, 2012)

slineTT said:


> My fellow Brits, I am sure you know very well that only UK has no or very few tolls on roads. Most European countries have tolls and the French example comes into mind. Yes it is expensive to drive in France, but I have seen worse tarmac on F1 race tracks than the French roads. The French roads are superb but you pay for them.
> 
> Now, the case where existing roads will turn into toll roads is unacceptable, unless of course we don't pay the road tax anymore. So it will be a pay as you drive kind of road tax.
> But if private companies build NEW roads, for example the M26, then tolls are unavoidable. Yes it will create roads for rich and poor, but at least the poor will have less congestion, the rich will pay and go faster and there will be loads of jobs created.
> I can not possibly understand where the Europeans have made it work, the Brits see mountains to climb......... :?


Hi,

If you think the roads are bad in Sussex you should try driving around Stoke-on-Trent it's diabolical, the amount of craters that have appeared over the years, and the patches that are done, that end up being yet another crater.
The spray taring and the stone that they then appear to throw on the road & that is supposed to pass as a new road surface makes me laugh& cry at the same time, as I now have tiny stone chips all over the bumper on my TT  ....
Originally I come from Kent, and I travel down the M1/M25 to visit friends and family on a regular basis. I am quite happy to pay a toll to go over the QEII Bridge and back through the tunnel, I have not and will never use the M6 Toll road, the cost of which is rediculous, if the builders want it to be used, surely they can see that the M25 Toll works and is busy all the time, covering the costs of staff wages plus the cost of upkeep and repairs ....
You don't need the brains of Einstein to realise what works do you ????

The fairer the charges the more it will be used, or is that exactly what they want I wonder, only a few people to use it ????


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## Pugwash69 (Jun 12, 2012)

One thing that really gets my goat is the M6 toll road. Upon approach of the junction for it from the East, there's electronic signs telling you that it's all clear on the M6 toll road. It never tells you that the normal M6 is also clear. They spent all that money over-complicating a junction I knew well with the M42 into a mess that even Tomtom struggles to explain.


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## ash24 (Feb 18, 2013)

As said above, privitisation has not really helped with anything in any other sector. As has been said before, the key is smart planning re. road maintenance (the same goes for congestion - how many times have you been in traffic due to one poorly-positioned set of lights right near a roundabout for example?)

The problem with Britain in general is that we have no grasp of continuous improvement. We've always waited for things to break completely before repairing them which often costs a lot more and creates more disruption.

There's a really good opportunity for jobs and growth in predictive technologies and simulation to understand road use, traffic flows and hence be able to repair a road before it gets to the stage where it is beyond repair and only allows for patch-ups without being totally ripped up.


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