# Speedy overtaking handling...



## Slothly (Feb 27, 2020)

Greetings all.

This is my virgin post after being a long time lurker here who's learned a lot from you good folks on this forum, so firstly a big thank you to all.

After my trusty Honda Civic had an unfortunate coming together with a suicidal deer a couple of weeks into lockdown (I'm a key worker so was benevolently allowed out to play on those lovely empty roads) it forced my hand into getting a shiny, S-line, FWD, TDI roadster for my high mileage commute. And mostly very nice it is too.

Except...

On three occasions now when stuck on a windy A road behind a truck or a Grandpa in his Jazz who won't go above 30mph lest he runs out of oxygen, when opportunity finally presented to overtake I went for it. Foot down, swift swing out into the oncoming lane and correct to sail majestically straight past. Trouble was, the car seemed to want to somehow over-compensate when straightening up and was seemingly determined to try to pull me back into the side of the vehicle I was passing, taking a real effort to hold.

The first two times this happened I put it down to the car with its big 19" wheels being unsettled or tramlining on a pretty ropey road surface. But when it happened again a couple of days ago on a decent bit of tarmac it's got me wondering if the car's going all Christine on me and there's something amiss.

The car's otherwise generally fine. Steering feels all good, recently fully Audi serviced with no issues, Pilot Sport 4s on each corner, etc so I'm confused. Hence my asking to pick the collective and far more knowledgeable minds on this forum. Is this a trait that these cars can have when rapidly manoeuvering under hard acceleration or is it more likely something mechanical or computery out of whack? Or Am I just expecting too much of the cars flickability due to its sporting pretentions?

Any thoughts would be most welcome. Thanks again.


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## chelspeed (May 6, 2017)

Sounds like torque steer.


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## Blade Runner (Feb 16, 2018)

Slothly said:


> Trouble was, the car seemed to want to somehow over-compensate when straightening up and was seemingly determined to try to pull me back into the side of the vehicle I was passing, taking a real effort to hold.


Hi, and welcome.

You might have to elaborate on that a bit. Some FWD cars are notorious for torque steer but I didn't think the TT was one of them. You can also get some alarming effects when overtaking big lorries on windy days (i.e. caused by severe air turbulence between the two vehicles) but that doesn't seem to apply in your case. Bit puzzled tbh, as I haven't heard of folk complain about that before. So maybe something is wrong? Does this only happen when you are overtaking, rather than just booting it on a straight road?


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## AudeeTeeTee (Sep 7, 2020)

The TT has a fairly small side profile, so I'd be surprised if it was due to air turbulence from the vehicle you're overtaking.

Have you tried a similar manouvre on an empty road? i.e. drop a gear, floor it, swerve around an imaginary non-existant car, and see if it does the same?

The TDi TT does have a lot of torque, so torque steer could be a factor - but it shouldn't be anywhere the levels where you struggle to control it.

As per Blade Runners post - what happens if you boot it in a straight line?


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## macaddict111 (Jun 13, 2018)

Hey mate and welcome, glad you've enjoyed the forum thus far.

I'd echo and say what you're probably experiencing is torque steer or more correctly the power steering's compensation for it due to it being both a TDI and FWD. If I understand right you're saying you get into the oncoming lane just fine but it feels like you're being pulled back once you straighten out in the oncoming lane?

If it helps, I'll explain that modern electric power steering is calibrated to "stiffen up" significantly when there's a high calculated torque load on the steering wheels. There's actually a variable you can read from the steering rack in VCDS (forget the exact name) something like "drivetrain steer torque inhibit" or something that tells you how much it's compensating. Basically with old school hydraulic steering you got one assist level, that's it. One of the many advantages of electric is it can allow variable assist based on many factors (drive select if you have it, current road conditions including speed, current steering angle, and engine torque). You have a "worst case" TT for torque steer (diesel with lots of low end torque and only drive wheels are steering wheels). So VAG will have set the torque compensation higher than most on here with Quattro. Basically when you floor it, the steering controller is going to reduce assist (or more specifically "control amplification") so that it doesn't "amplify" the torque steering tendency of the drive/steering wheels to veer off in their own direction. Ideally it should be calibrated so that if you had your hand completely off the wheel (like most Tesla drivers) and floored it, the wheel should remain perfectly straight.

Lots of words to say that I think you're probably just experiencing your steering assist intentionally go to (near) zero when you floor your TDI FWD TT. This makes the natural things that happen when you pass (as others have said, the aerodynamic effect of the truck, however minor, and also if it's a two-lane road, you've gone on to the other side of the crown) more dramatic and noticeable. One good thing to try is go into a parking lot or empty road, fidget with your steering at idle to get a good "feel", then floor it and even before you get much speed, try fidgeting with it the exact same amount. I guarantee it'll be a lot harder to nudge with a high engine torque.

Of course it could be other things (one of your front wheels about to come off would make steering squirrely [this is a joke]), but the steering system is pretty simple as it is on most non-steer-by-wire cars: the wheel is connected to a pretty standard steering rack completely mechanically with a big metal shaft, and there's a BLDC motor on the shaft that senses torque input and "helps" you.


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## DPG (Dec 7, 2005)

Do you have lane assist on? Two green lines on the display


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## Frizzley (Jun 28, 2020)

Per Blade Runners suggestion could do with a bit more detail on the exact circumstances and spec of car

Does it have Active Lane Assist - if it does the software processes the images, detects the lane markings and the course the vehicle is following between them. If the vehicle approaches a line without the turn signal being activated, the system helps the driver to steer back into the lane by intervening gently, but perceptibly, in the electromechanical steering. The driver uses the MMI to determine how soon the intervention occurs and whether it should be combined with steering wheel vibration.


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## Slothly (Feb 27, 2020)

Huge thanks for all of the replies. Most enlightening.

I'd not heard of "torque steer" before but I'm pretty sure already that's the issue.

The car doesn't have lane assist so it can't be that interfering and with nearly new Pilot Sports at the correct pressures then I'm guessing the electroncs explanation is probably the cause.

Does this mean that basically nothing can be done to reduce this happening in the future? It would be a real shame as I otherwise really like the car but I'm not sure I want to live with it as it is.

And as for the remap I was planning...

I'm about to leave work for the long drive home so if I get some clear air I'll try a few foot down lane changes and report back tomorrow.

Thanks again, it's very much appreciated.


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## macaddict111 (Jun 13, 2018)

I know this isn't a very helpful response, but this is why sports cars aren't supposed to be front drive. You can't throw 200-300 lb ft of torque at the two steering wheels and not expect to have compromised handling. That's why everyone loves Quattro so much here, and why Audi only leaves FWD on their cheapest models basically to hit a price point they otherwise couldn't. You get what you pay for!


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## AudeeTeeTee (Sep 7, 2020)

macaddict111 said:


> I know this isn't a very helpful response, but this is why sports cars aren't supposed to be front drive. You can't throw 200-300 lb ft of torque at the two steering wheels and not expect to have compromised handling. That's why everyone loves Quattro so much here, and why Audi only leaves FWD on their cheapest models basically to hit a price point they otherwise couldn't. You get what you pay for!


I thought Quattro (Haldex) cars only engage the rear wheels when the front ones start to spin?

I've drive both FWD and Quattro with the same engines in both - and 99.9% of the time it made no difference whatsoever.


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## macaddict111 (Jun 13, 2018)

AudeeTeeTee said:


> I thought Quattro (Haldex) cars only engage the rear wheels when the front ones start to spin?
> 
> I've drive both FWD and Quattro with the same engines in both - and 99.9% of the time it made no difference whatsoever.


That was more true of the older Haldex versions, but this version is just as much predictive as reactive. It partially locks the rear basically anytime you're under heavy acceleration to some extent in any drive mode with even good traction. Quattro is a performance AWD system, not just for snow. It's to enhance the handling as much as traction.

If you have grippy tires on dry pavement you may not be able to tell with a car under maybe 220 ft lb torque, but anything over that (especially S and RS) and you're going to have noticeable spinning and torque steer at wide open throttle in even dry conditions. FWD has its own characteristics/charms that some people enjoy, but also disadvantages as you've experienced.


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## Slothly (Feb 27, 2020)

Good morning all and many thanks once again for all the insightful replies.

Unfortunately I didn't get much chance to try any variations on putting my foot down as there was too much traffic on the motorway last night and I was following a police car for most of the A road once off it, who I doubt would have appreciated some loon rapidly accelerating and flying across lanes.

I did manage a straight line hard accelerate out of a 40mph speed control section and didn't notice any directional pull, but far from conclusive.

From all your messages and having read around it some more I'm now pretty convinced that it is indeed torque steer. The torque from hard acceleration coupled with poor surface and camber - when it happened on good tarmac the shift in camber was noticable across the lanes - doubtless combining to affect the steering badly.

From this:
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-tech/ ... rque-steer

it seems there's no cure except for smoother acceleration. Kind of unfortunate as the A road I have to use when the motorway's all to often closed has such limited overtaking opportunities, making them hard and fast when possible. My old lower powered 2.2 diesel never had any issues so it's kind of ironic and disappointing that having the extra grunt in the TT makes such moves harder rather than easier.

So I guess it's either adapt my driving and chill with being stuck behind Grandpa Jazz for longer or consider changing cars.

Darn!

Still, I won't be using the car much for the next couple of weeks so plenty of pondering time and I'll experiment with hard acceleration and steering when back commuting to work and will report my findings.

Huge thanks again.


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## Mark Pred (Feb 1, 2017)

chelspeed said:


> Sounds like torque steer.


Exactly that. No need for War and Peace fellas. When I have driven a non quattro loaner it was very evident under hard acceleration. Common to FWD VAG offerings.


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## Slothly (Feb 27, 2020)

So having pondered all your replies whilst cleaning my TT this afternoon I'm pretty sure I'll be changing the car.

However, I do really like the TT (when it's not trying to run me sideways) and other than a Boxster there's nothing else that really appeals.

So my question is, would a Quattro TTS solve my torque steer issues with the model?

Many thanks.


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## macaddict111 (Jun 13, 2018)

Yes I have a TTS and it has "no" torque steer. And that's coming from someone who owned 2 sporty FWD cars too. Base Quattro TT would probably be more similar to the TDI.


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## aeroflott (Feb 18, 2019)

Interesting thread. I have a TDI also, and have experienced this on several occasions. Usually when overtaking on a dual carriageway, when giving it some beans to accelerate from one lane to another to pass someone. I've never felt out of control or in danger, but it's certainly something to be alert to.


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## spidey3 (Aug 13, 2019)

As with any other handling characteristic, like oversteer or understeer, torque steer is just a characteristic to be understood, and overcome with appropriate compensation.


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## macaddict111 (Jun 13, 2018)

spidey3 said:


> As with any other handling characteristic, like oversteer or understeer, torque steer is just a characteristic to be understood, and overcome with appropriate compensation.


+1000


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## leopard (May 1, 2015)

Slothly said:


> other than a Boxster there's nothing else that really appeals.


There's your answer right there :wink:


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## Slothly (Feb 27, 2020)

Thanks all for your further info.

Much as I now understand torque steer and could I suppose drive with it in mind, it just seems to detract from the sporty experience.

A Boxster would be great but maybe just too much of a stretch on the bank account right now, particularly as the switch from diesel to petrol will already up the costs on my lengthy commute without Porsches eye-watering service costs, etc.

So a Quattro TT it is to be. Base or TTS? Hmmm...

e.t.a. Having just compared claimed (yeah, I know) mpg between the two there's so little difference then TTS looks the easy winner.


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## Hoggy (May 8, 2002)

Hi, All cars have their characteristics & you just drive to suit & then just get used to it.
The amount of understeer on my MK1 when first giving it stick was very surprising, to what I was used to driving, but you learn to drive it differently & never think about it again.
Hoggy.


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## Slothly (Feb 27, 2020)

Hi Hoggy.

I do agree about changing tbe driving style to suit the car and if I could only stick to better roads I'd probably keep the TDI. Unfortunately I often can't and I'd prefer greater confidence in the car for my more madcap manoeuvres.

Besides, it's a darn fine excuse to step up to TTS.


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## Hoggy (May 8, 2002)

Slothly said:


> Hi Hoggy.
> 
> I do agree about changing tbe driving style to suit the car and if I could only stick to better roads I'd probably keep the TDI. Unfortunately I often can't and I'd prefer greater confidence in the car for my more madcap manoeuvres.
> 
> Besides, it's a darn fine excuse to step up to TTS.


Hi, TTS= more power but quattro should sort out the torque steer.
My 1st VXR had plenty of torque steer, but my Nurburg VXR has LSD so any torque steer has gone.  
Hoggy.


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## Emanuel29 (Oct 28, 2019)

Slothly said:


> So having pondered all your replies whilst cleaning my TT this afternoon I'm pretty sure I'll be changing the car.
> 
> However, I do really like the TT (when it's not trying to run me sideways) and other than a Boxster there's nothing else that really appeals.
> 
> ...


Don't let these people put you down.
A car with less than 200HP does not need in any way quattro, that's why they didn't put it on, they save you some money by making it FWD and you get exactly what you need.
Don't you think they could've put Torsen on the TTRS? Well, no, they didn't and if you want to see what a near-torsen feeling is, you can mess with the AWD system with an OBDEleven or VCDS and put it to "increased traction" (ofc, quattro models) and see that you will feel how heavy your car is, how heavy your steering wheel feels and how heavy it is handling-wise, you will not absolutely like it. *So, stop, saying, it, is, about, the, money!*
There's torque steer settings in OBD if you want to check it out with professional people, or, I would just bring the car to the dealership so they check everything out. That doesn't sound right and definitely should not happen. But that's nowhere near as to considering to change your car.
Check your tyre pressure again when they are cold and make sure, again, that it is right.

You said you're considering a TTS, your "high mileage commute" will be a very expensive commute at the end of the month. If anyone here dares to say their TTS goes under 10l. / 100km I am going to kill him personally, if you go under you're just coasting with Efficiency mode (and it's pretty hard to drive it slow, you only drive it slow when you're not sure if you're making it to the next gas station) or there's no way you can get under that, my S stays at 15.7l/100km always and I am not driving it that hard, and my friends TTRS (no surprise) gets better mileage due to the 7th gear. Might want to take that into consideration!

I don't know if you get the driving modes on your car, but if you do and it's raining, *DON'T DRIVE IN COMFORT OR EFFICIENCY*, I went sideways 2 times, it was smooth because the new Haldex can put 100% of the power to the rear but if it was at high speed - that would've been pretty dangerous. And, it was not even raining.
And what's even more nicer is that, trying to do it intentionally, YOU WILL NEVER DO IT.  

EDIT: Oh yeah, and if you're still considering changing your car, you may look into the Audi TT Quattro 240HP!

EDIT 2: If you have an OBDEleven or a VCDS, please try (try because I am not sure if you have it) go into Unit -> Brakes -> Adaptation -> Electronic differential lock, XDS or something like that and post a screenshot here.



Audi said:


> Electronic differential lock for even more precise handling
> The Electronic Stability Control (ESC) adds the finishing touch to the sporty handling characteristics. In the front-wheel drive TT, the electronic differential lock (an ESC function) brakes the front turning wheel easily on bends.


As someone already mentioned, try testing this again on an empty road, and also do ESC on and ESC off to see exactly what happens or, if it even happens again.

So, it might be that it does not break that "easily" as they say and has to be adjusted out. Which is easily doable if true.

Also, there is counter-steer support too (brake unit), you have to look into that aswell.

If these still don't sort your problem out, try: Unit Driver Assistance -> Adaptation -> Driving profile switchover -> Switch from "Incrementally" to "Direct" while people say it didn't bring them any advantages, I tell you that for me it is not a placebo and it is the BIGGEST difference the purchase of the OBDEleven brought to my car. As for what is it, your acceleration should be more linear with this one. In my case, it is absolutely linear and not just "more". (I am also running a Stage so might be that).

_One of the security codes required for changing brake adaptations: 07483_


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## Blade Runner (Feb 16, 2018)

Slothly said:


> Hi Hoggy.
> 
> I do agree about changing the driving style to suit the car and if I could only stick to better roads I'd probably keep the TDI. Unfortunately I often can't and I'd prefer greater confidence in the car for my more madcap manoeuvres.
> 
> Besides, it's a darn fine excuse to step up to TTS.


I'm still a bit surprised that you have found the torque steer effect so noticeable when overtaking, but (a) you are obviously not the only one to notice this in the TDI and (b) the car has the "right" combination of features for it to show up (FWD, high torque, no LSD). Can't help thinking that there is something that is not set up properly, but it could take an awful lot of tinkering/testing to find it. A TTS (if you decide to go that way) will certainly eradicate the problem, and give you a generally better driving experience too.


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## powerplay (Feb 8, 2008)

I've had a tdi FWD TT once as a loaner for a few days last year, I didn't really notice much in the way of torque steer tbh and I pretty much drove it with the throttle in either the off or on position.

now if you want to experience torque steer, I once had a chipped Pug 206GTI180. I'd swear the wheels were fitted at 90 degrees. I nicknamed it Crabby.


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