# Food banks



## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30379946

The numbers of people using food banks, from a few tens of thousand not so long ago has now risen to over a quarter of a million.

Every user of a food bank has to be referred by a professional - you can't just walk in if you've drunk too much wine the night before and can't afford a meal.

The UK now has the fastest rising inequality blamed on a rise of low wage jobs which need supplementing by benefits - which are delayed - but which are keeping the apparent unemployment numbers down. There are an estimated four million people in "food poverty".


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## msnttf10 (Jul 30, 2007)

Yeah, but to get referred in the first place all you need to do is spend all your money on drink and cigs...
Living beyond your means is always going to mean no money be that on the social or working as a banker.

Sky, latest phone, trainers, wifi, netflix are not must haves.
UK has one of the most generous welfare system in world, the rest of us have to work to pay for these people.... how about cutting my tax and i get to enjoy more of my earnings instead of paying for others to stay at home or supplementing their pay?

Until the government of whatever colour wakes up to the fact that the nicer the welfare systems are, the more people will want to abuse them and sit at home.


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

Or lose your job or not have a good one to start with that needs supplementing or suddenly get a big bill and need to feed the kids. What does the graph indicate - over the last few years there's been a trend in society to preferentially go on the scrounge at food banks? I'm sure they really enjoy visiting as it must be real fun - look how popular it's becoming. It's funny, you'd think they would just simply switch to a better paid job - what could be the problem?


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## Tangerine Knight (Jul 25, 2010)

+1


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## msnttf10 (Jul 30, 2007)

Losing a job clearly means things could becomes hard for some people (at any level), but to be brutal, people need to live within their means regardless of if they are in or out of work or not. PCP this, loan for that, credit card rather than wait, its a recipe for dept and problems. Wealth just doesn't go up with time. You don't have a right to have a new car, the latest tech or a big house on demand. Those things relate to your earnings. People are stupid and get sucked in by the ads that push their products.

I'm sure there are "genuine" people hit by hard times, but there's many more who just see this as a career.
The welfare system needs to be put in line with other major EU counties, we have lost sight of what the welfare system was created for.

How about stopping money payments for parents to spend on beer, cigs etc, and providing welfare sustenance like food for families to live. but I'm sure that would be against human rights..

In terms of jobs, they have to be there.. Claims have gone down, but over 5M people have entered the UK since 2006
2M jobs were created between 2006 and 2013 in the middle of a huge recession. Maybe the people entering the UK and taking on jobs have less pride or less lavish life styles in terms of their expectations?


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

I was listening to a programme about it on the radio and also callers into Any Answers in response to Any Questions on Saturday. Sure a lot of people had TVs and mobile phones the same as anyone would but they were purchased whilst they had a job and had since fallen into dire straights either because they lost their original job and/or been hit by a big bill coming in or they lost or had delays on the benefit supplement to their low paid job which was keeping them out of the unemployment statistics. These people didn't have savings to tide them over. There was nothing they could immediately do to solve the problem and that was the point.

There were a lot of misconceptions about the users of food banks and the point was made that ALL the users had been referred by professionals because of the immediate problem they had fallen into and looking at what they could do to help themselves get out of it but couldn't - and there were now many more people in that category than there used to be and it was a growing trend.

Food is also a big outgoing for poor people and food inflation affects poor people more than well off people.

I think the trend is the most telling piece of information. What change by government or society has caused this huge increase in the use of food banks? That must be linked to the rise in inequality and policies and conditions that encourage it.


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

Anecdotally, a woman I heard this morning used to have a good family income and think of herself as "middle class" and even own horses but fell onto hard times with I think two children to look after, one of which had some special needs. She now grows her own vegetables and her budget is very tight. Her children are her priority and she makes sure they are well fed. She, however, is only eating one meal every other day and her health is suffering but she won't use food banks even though she sounds like she would be entitled. She is clearly in food poverty.


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## ag (Sep 12, 2002)

Unfortunately this has been building up since the late 1990s. Many decisions have been made that were designed to favour the lower paid people in the country, and indeed those relying on benefits, that have ultimately been extremely detrimental to them. In some cases the changes were actually made to benefit the government and in most cases this has succeeded, but the lower paid have eventually suffered as a consequence. Ironically the majority of these decisions were enacted years ago and it is only now that the downside, as there is with nearly all legislation, has become apparent. The late 1990s / Early 2000s boom was fuelled by borrowing, be it by governments, corporations or individuals and unless it is borrowing for a well reasoned investment then it will always be a bad decision. We are paying for that now, all of us, but the poorer ones don't have the spare income and it hurts them more.


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

msnttf10 said:


> Yeah, but to get referred in the first place all you need to do is spend all your money on drink and cigs...
> Living beyond your means is always going to mean no money be that on the social or working as a banker.
> 
> Sky, latest phone, trainers, wifi, netflix are not must haves.
> ...


What a lot of utter pish... have you ever volunteered to work in a food bank... yea thought not. Well I have.

Yes you get the odd chancer who has spent all the money on drink. But 60% of people using them are families with at least 1 person in full time work, minimum wage simply cannot sustain a family of 4 people, a lot of these people have phones etc.... but you are bound to a contract on a lot of them and face poor credit and demands for payment if they stop.

Then you get the poor buggers who are victims of benefits sanctions, they get their already tiny amount of monet cut or even stopped for the silliest of infringement, I had one woman who had half her money stopped because she was late at the job center..... because she was at a job interview, she had appealed the decision but it can take days to get sorted.

Bedroom tax is also also a major contributer to this epidemic, poor sods who when paying full rent were just fine to have a 2 bedroom house, but as soon as they fall on hard times the government wants them to pay for the PRIVILEGE of having a second bedroom (don't start me on, mps getting a second fu***no house at the tax payers expence). This abhorant scheme was touted as a way to free up social housing, but in reality they simply is not enough 1 bedroom homes to rehouse everyone so they are forced to lose a vital £14 PER ROOM. If you are already in utter poverty due to pathetic welfare payments then this will indeed send you over the edge.

The papers like to paint a picture of people on benefits swimming in money but is simply is not the case, most people on benefits live a poor quality of life and are living hand to mouth.

The real sickening thing is that councils are now taking food banks for granted, when people in need to to them for emergency money they are not being give a "crisis loan" they are being directed to the nearest food bank, this to me is utterly unacceptable.


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

People on job seekers allowance get less than a pittance, under £70 a week to live on, that amount barely pays for gas and electric this time of year.


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## msnttf10 (Jul 30, 2007)

What altered reality do you live in?

You speak for me, without knowing me.... :roll: 
I give 2 weeks of unpaid time a year to charity work, 10% of my salary, i served in Iraq for my country and all you think is that the world is out to screw people over... but thanks for asking.

Bedroom tax has roots in a good idea, that of these houses people are 'using' are not theirs to keep forever. They belong to the community and should be given to people who need them the 'most'. People who need those extra bedrooms can't get a house as those that don't need them refuse to move on when situations change. The tax is aimed at putting people in the most appropriate house, rather than the biggest one they can find or what. While i grant a tax is not always the fairest way to ask people to move, it does ensure that all those but the most stubborn are at least prompted in the pocket by their actions of holding onto them. I'm sure not everyone can find something smaller to move to - those people should not have pay, but when something is found they either move or pay. Maybe if in the last 16year boom if some additional social houses would have been built, we wouldn't have this issue? instead they sold off gold, poured everything into PFI and basically bankrupted the NHS and waged wars around the world.

£70/week for gas/electric - my mansion doesn't cost that a week, more like 300/qtr £20/week...!
So by your numbers 40% are not?
If you can't afford a family, don't start one - thats what happens to the rest of us... or get a job. Lots of none UK people are finding jobs to pay for the same housing costs and same electric/gas.. OR maybe tackle the overpriced rents to start with?

The MPs getting a house is cheaper than paying them expenses for hotels, so be careful about opening that box of worms.
Personally i'd say they should be given a house/flat or if they buy one ANY profits made should be given back when its sold or the MP leaves.

Councils esp labour ones are painting the picture they 'want' you to see, its all manufactured. Look what the evil government has done, while at the same time not saying how they would address the same issues. Massive u turns around cutting services, massive u turns around central policy. Hardest times have all come from the labour con artist, those rich boys telling you not to trust the other rich boys because you are working class...! I didn't see the last government save the miners? or the shipyards or anything! they applied the KY jelly to the anus of the common worker and declared step up, step up - open house to anyone.


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

msnttf10 said:


> What altered reality do you live in?
> 
> You speak for me, without knowing me.... :roll:
> I give 2 weeks of unpaid time a year to charity work, 10% of my salary, i served in Iraq for my country and all you think is that the world is out to screw people over... but thanks for asking.
> ...


I don't care what you did in Iraq, or what you give to charity, what I said it you have not volunteered for a food bank, clearly you haven't or you wouldn't have made the ridiculous claims about the people that are forced to use them.

Bedroom tax is the most ridiculous idea ever, if you think for one SECOND that it is ever about freeing up spare rooms then you are stupid. If it was it would have been money ADDED to rent NOT money TAKEN from benefits.

Remember people in poverty do not pay gas and elecelectric quarterly, most are tied to rip off pre payment meters, when I moved into my current home I had one installed as the last owner owed money to the gas company, trust me I was paying £35 a WEEK in gas alone.

Pull your head out of your arse.


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## msnttf10 (Jul 30, 2007)

Nothing in mine - clearly you don't need the labour supplied KY, you have more than your own head in that hole!

Bedroom tax is more than fair and should be expanded. You don't have a right to free bedrooms.
So the new evil in your post is the electric and gas companies not the government?
Replace most of the cash benefits with food stamps therefore guaranteeing people are able to feed themselves.


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

If they were trying to be fair about the bedroom tax then like you say, they wouldn't actually apply it until alternative suitable accommodation was available but had been refused. The fact that as you also say, it is not available, surely means from your own points, that it is being unfairly applied given that the housing stock situation is known.

From the above it would appear that the priority isn't fairness but simply reducing the benefits bill by penalising those last able to afford the penalty or are able to do anything to avoid it. Fairness doesn't come into it. So how is that "more than fair"? That seems contradictory.

Is it fair for people to be penalised for adapting rooms because of a disability, to cope and accommodate themselves or their necessary equipment, to then get penalised by this punitive and heartless policy?


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

msnttf10 said:


> Nothing in mine - clearly you don't need the labour supplied KY, you have more than your own head in that hole!
> 
> Bedroom tax is more than fair and should be expanded. You don't have a right to free bedrooms.
> So the new evil in your post is the electric and gas companies not the government?
> Replace most of the cash benefits with food stamps therefore guaranteeing people are able to feed themselves.


its not fair, it ONLY applies to the poorest people on benefits, they don't care that you have a 5 bedroom council house if you are paying the rent on it, nor do they want you to move, they only give a shirt when they have to pay benefits to cover the rent.

how is it fair that couple A with no kids but paying rent can have a 5 bedroom council house with no hassle from the state but family B with two 9 year old children and an extra box room need to pay money from a pittance of a benefit or be forced to move to a 2 bedroom council house?

how about the family who has a spouse who has and needs a separate room because its not feasible to sleep with a spouse due to illness.... should they be penalised.

im sorry mate but you are not in the real world... :?


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

only 2% of people affected by "bedroom tax" have been able to move..... its a failure in every way except in the way its reducing the benefits bill.

which apparently was NOT the reason it was conceived


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

msnttf10 said:


> Nothing in mine - clearly you don't need the labour supplied KY, you have more than your own head in that hole!
> 
> Bedroom tax is more than fair and should be expanded. You don't have a right to free bedrooms.
> So the new evil in your post is the electric and gas companies not the government?
> Replace most of the cash benefits with food stamps therefore guaranteeing people are able to feed themselves.


FOOD STAMPS. are you serious .

you want to create a social underclass? people have the right to dignity. regardless of employment status.

do you think for ONE second that food stamps will force people to buy food, do you not think that those food stamps would be sold in a heartbeat for half the money if they needed say drugs or alcohol thus exacerbating the situation?

do you think its fair that honest people down on their luck should be forced the indignity of going to the supermarkets with fekkin food stamps?


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

oh and how are people expected to use this food bought with magical food stamps when they have no gas and electric to cook with, its a real and current problem that people are sitting with no power or heating in homes when benefits are sanctioned.


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## ReTTro fit (Nov 9, 2014)

I think you have to way up the amount of people that are genuinely down on there luck against the amount of scum bags that don't want to work that just screw the system that have always got ****, £120 trainers on and can afford to buy booze and scratch cards like there going out of fashion and get given a flat etc etc

I'd happily give any genuine person my last pound but I think the system itself has just created a very easy way of life for some that ruin it for others


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## thenewguy (Oct 4, 2012)

Benefit fraud v's tax avoidance, 1.2bn v's 5bn.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/com ... 20562.html


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

1wheelonly said:


> I think you have to way up the amount of people that are genuinely down on there luck against the amount of scum bags that don't want to work that just screw the system that have always got ****, £120 trainers on and can afford to buy booze and scratch cards like there going out of fashion and get given a flat etc etc
> 
> I'd happily give any genuine person my last pound but I think the system itself has just created a very easy way of life for some that ruin it for others


the people "screwing" the system are in the extreme minority, its absolutely peanuts in public cash compared to say tax avoidance by the big corporations, (Amazon and Starbucks come to mind).

the red top toilet papers like to paint this picture of benefits claimants... it simply is not the case.

again I point out the fact that the majority of people claiming emergency food from food banks have one person in the family employed.

ive been on benefits and JSA and I assure you, it is not easy. you get £70 a week, that's it! there is no other cash. its a tabloid myth. the only part really open to abuse is claiming disability allowance (you can get £200 a week plus accommodation and council tax paid), this is what the papers portray as your avg "benefits cheat"


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## msnttf10 (Jul 30, 2007)

brian1978 said:


> msnttf10 said:
> 
> 
> > Nothing in mine - clearly you don't need the labour supplied KY, you have more than your own head in that hole!
> ...


So you've just walked onto your own land mine.
You have a right... a right to be paid for by someone else? No you have the obligation to provide for you and your family.
Selling food stamps - boom, so there so go, why would you need to sell them. Welfare is meant to provide a safety net, not a lifestyle. The point is the stamps would or should go to the correct place, providing food! if its not the image you want, get a job, everyone else does!

In terms of bedroom tax, if couple A are "paying for the house" i don't care, its a choice they have made - its not coming from Joe Public. They will be paying council tax based on the property too. Keep digging up the exceptions.

This is like your scotland argument, hows that oil price going? 
oh yeah, pretty good job fishman didn't get his way as the country would be bankrupt already and impacting GBP.
Russia would look like disney world in comparison.

In answer to the other question from JohnH who actually seems normal by comparison, the problem with any system is you always have people who fall the wrong side of the line, which is genuinely a shame. I'm sure most don't actually get stuck with the bill/tax post appeal, but no doubt the appeal is not a nice process to endure. Lets be clear, the bedroom tax is a double edged sword, yes it meant to reduce the welfare bill thats clearly spiralled out of all control under the last inept jokers, but moving people to suitable housing to allow others to have bigger houses is also needed.

Problem with communists like 1798! is they believe everything is owed and they don't need to do anything. 
The rich will pay for us. What would be a better system to the tax, labour have said will remove it because "Our policy is fully funded, so that it won't lead to any additional borrowing" yeah, thats just what happened last time, it was fully funded alright..


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## msnttf10 (Jul 30, 2007)

thenewguy said:


> Benefit fraud v's tax avoidance, 1.2bn v's 5bn.
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/com ... 20562.html


Want it all...
Most people do, I don't think most want focus on the front or that back. i don't have to pay, everyone else should pay is the general mantra people seem to have these days.

The problem is people cry foul about all these tax loop holes, but the more HMRC (not the government) tries to close them, the more holes open up. Scrap all tax rules and simply say whatever money you get its subject to tax regardless. 
People just don't want to pay tax, be it those at the bottom or the top and they always look for ways to get out. Be that cash in the hand for a little weekend work (still tax fraud) or paying into a shell company. The number of small companies paying themselves just under the 40% tax, claiming all the benefits of that (child care, etc etc) and then paying themselves huge dividends that are not subject to the same tax rules.. Or the purchases through the company for personal use so no tax paid on that laptop or sofa or whatever it was... or spending money on the business for the hell of it to reduce profits and again avoid tax.... i could go on..


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

msnttf10 said:


> You have a right... a right to be paid for by someone else? No you have the obligation to provide for you and your family.
> Selling food stamps - boom, so there so go, why would you need to sell them. Welfare is meant to provide a safety net, not a lifestyle. The point is the stamps would or should go to the correct place, providing food! if its not the image you want, get a job, everyone else does!


yes people have a RIGHT to dignity, creating a social underclass by making one group of people use food stamps is typical Tory ideology. and it stinks. its not always as easy as "just go get a job" my wife was out of work for 3 months, she was applying for dozens of jobs a DAY.

yes people who have addiction issues would sell them, vulnerable people would be taken advantage of. loan sharks for eg taking them as a token payment for EG. 
"everyone else" doesn't just get a job, if they did why do we have such high unemployment, are you suggesting EVERYONE on benefits is a useless sponger?



msnttf10 said:


> In terms of bedroom tax, if couple A are "paying for the house" i don't care, its a choice they have made - its not coming from Joe Public. They will be paying council tax based on the property too. Keep digging up the exceptions.


so its not about freeing up spare rooms after all, people have the right to a spare room as long as the tax payer isn't footing the bill?



msnttf10 said:


> This is like your scotland argument, hows that oil price going?
> oh yeah, pretty good job fishman didn't get his way as the country would be bankrupt already and impacting GBP.
> Russia would look like disney world in comparison.


don't know why you are comparing Scotland with Russia, its having problems due to international sanctions, I don't actually know what this has to to with anything, I am assuming you are just being a troll here.
but to answer your question, the white paper never sold the independence of Scotland on the back of oil, it was sold on the other 85-88% of natural and economical resources we have. oil would only have made up 12-15% of the economy. and its a volatile resource, it will come back up in price, as it always does.

but lets get back to your ideas on how to punish the poor shall we.


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

msnttf10 said:


> brian1978 said:
> 
> 
> > msnttf10 said:
> ...


I think Brian was making the point that the only effect of food vouchers would be stigma.

As for some people falling the wrong side of the line - the disabled people I mentioned lost the appeal because of the way the law is rigidly framed - there was no option for them but to pay. Morally fair? Of course not. Also it's not a few people that fall the wrong side of the line - it's most - which seems to be by design from the points you made earlier regarding there being no way to avoid the tax because of the lack of housing.


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... are_btn_fb


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## msnttf10 (Jul 30, 2007)

Well the working population are having to delay before having a family - to use a huge generalisation, the only people having lots of kids are those at the bottom. You know what happened between the **** sapiens and **** neanderthalensis....?

In terms of the stigma, that was the driver for centuries for people to improve themselves. 
Dignity is earned, not given. Those in genuine need should be given support to find new work to support themselves, but they might have to scrape by in the mean time. When you have a job, you don't have to spend it all, you can save money for those bad times. Personal finances are not like the fabled labour credit card, you can't go keep spending forever without paying it back.

The labour solution is not doable, the current one also has issue - but no one is coming forward with a way to reduce the burden on public finances and to ensure those in genuine need are taken care of, but at a level that will not promote abuse or allow for those that simply can't be arsed to get up and work.

if commy 1798 had his way, following on from his bedroom tax scenario those who own their home, they would be thrown out of them and given smaller homes if they have a spare bedroom. No doubt still paying for it still while someone else lives in it.


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

msnttf10 said:


> Well the working population are having to delay before having a family - to use a huge generalisation, the only people having lots of kids are those at the bottom. You know what happened between the **** sapiens and **** neanderthalensis....?
> 
> In terms of the stigma, that was the driver for centuries for people to improve themselves.
> Dignity is earned, not given. Those in genuine need should be given support to find new work to support themselves, but they might have to scrape by in the mean time. When you have a job, you don't have to spend it all, you can save money for those bad times. Personal finances are not like the fabled labour credit card, you can't go keep spending forever without paying it back.
> ...


Neandrathals???.. ok. now I'm convinced your mad :lol:

We will have to agree to disagree on the controversy of "food stamps", I think Ian Duncan Smith proposed a credit card that can only be used on food in certain supermarkets (more using the poor to feed the rich). But again I do not see how this will help with food banks as as I've said several times now most people using them have a family member in full time employment. The minimum wage is just not livable that's the REAL issue, big corporations get away with paying these crap wages. Government then uses tax credits to top them up, thus footing the tax payer AGAIN with the bill of helping the poor... even when they are working.

as for people saving up when working for hard times ahead. Again, what planet do you live on? most unskilled jobs are paid at minimum wage. Especially when someone just starts out. The minimum wage act was a disaster as It created a ceiling for pay for unskilled workers. Big company's strive to pay the MINIMUM they can not what workers deserve. Now what we also have is zero hour contracts where over a million people are living hand to mouth every month, not knowing what the next pay packet will contain.

A family on minimum wage barely scrapes by each month, how the hell can they save anything?

If you want a way to help public finances why not have a look at making big business and the super wealthy pay the correct tax, and reconsider abhorrent wants of public cash replacing (illegally) trident.

It's fairly obvious from your attitude and language you are a tory supporter, and by nature you have to disagree with everything labour does, but here in Scotland we frankly can't stand either party. They are two cheeks of the same arse to us and thankfully we have a third party here who are an viable option, and given the limited powers currently afforded to us by Westminster seem to be doing a far better job of running Scotland....

As to your last comment, I have no idea what that rabble is all about..... keep taking the pills mate


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## msnttf10 (Jul 30, 2007)

Get the rich to pay more :roll: 
How about the radical idea of EVERYONE paying a fair share...

HMRC is going after big businesses like apple amazon etc etc - but why didn't the last government do anything about it rather than promoting the practice! Without the big businesses, there are little well paid jobs remember, so be careful what you ask for.

Trident is not illegal, stop smoking that stuff dude.

Two cheeks of the same arse, maybe - but the SNP are no better than the butt hole in the middle.
And no, i didn't vote tory, kinda screws up your insults doesn't it..

Some people just don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world at times. It's just hit me, you should never argue with an idiot. They will simply drag you down to their level and beat you with their experience. I don't want to go down to 1798s level.. so, i won't.


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

msnttf10 said:


> Get the rich to pay more :roll:
> How about the radical idea of EVERYONE paying a fair share...
> 
> HMRC is going after big businesses like apple amazon etc etc - but why didn't the last government do anything about it rather than promoting the practice! Without the big businesses, there are little well paid jobs remember, so be careful what you ask for.
> ...


And how do you expect the poorest people already living on nothing to "pay a fair share" isn't the Idea of society the better off burdening more on broader shoulders? Or should the rich just keep getting richer while the poor get poorer, you do realise we have the worst rich poor divide in the western world, we are actually equal with NIGERIA and it's getting worse.

Do you honestly think big company's will just shut up profitable businesses because they are made to pay tax?

I didn't say trident was illegal, I said it's REPLACEMENT was illegal, you know reremember that nuclear disarmament treaty we signed up to?, I'm guessing we think it's not worth the paper it's written on :roll:

What "insults" did I give you about voting tory, please feel free to highlight them, I will apologise in due course if I have INSULTED you.

About not arguing with idiots, George carlin I believe ? I think I said it the other day in another thread..... maybe that's where you got that from... well I'm not the one comparing Scotland to Russia and jibbering on about neandrathals. But hey Ho...


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

I don't think Robin Hood would have been so popular if he'd robbed the poor to give to the rich. You do realise the Sheriff of Nottingham always gets booed when it's panto season don't you? :wink:


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

John-H said:


> I don't think Robin Hood would have been so popular if he'd robbed the poor to give to the rich. You do realise the Sheriff of Nottingham always gets booed when it's panto season don't you? :wink:


Yea we just call them Robin ba****d's. .........

Or Torys


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## msnttf10 (Jul 30, 2007)

Two things would appear to be infinite - the universe and someones stupidity.
You've pretty much proved everything, no its Mark Twain :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Again, do you need ladders for that hole you are digging? The NPNW treaty you speak of, the P means Proliferation - i'll save you a google, that word means increase or spread, so to replace is not to increase or spread. START I and START II was not signed by the UK, its US and Russia only.

Worse rich to poor ratio - Depends on who put the survey together no doubt and hows it been measured (assets, cash, paper value?).. Also the ratio is screwed as the bottom isn't going down, middle is still where most are, but the top is going up at a great rate. I'm sure the top 5% are seriously rich and any unfair attempt to extract money will result in them moving like happening in France - just so happened that worked in the UK advantage as many moved to London and are hopefully paying tax here. But tax avoidance be at the bottom or top shouldn't be allowed, but it seems you can still own a football club if convicted of such a crime.

Would they move to avoid tax? Well given the number of business that moved from the UK to both EU countries and developing countries due to labor cost, yes at a guess, many companies will do what they have to do. Ireland attracted lots of large companies by basically providing a tax haven, this is now being investigated by the EU. You then have Luxembourg too. Apple are under investigation, as are google, starbucks..... But in principle i ACTUALLY agree with you they should pay more (read equal to everyone else, not an increase). Amazon UK should pay tax on its UK business for example, but remember that means the prices of goods would go up, things like DVDs etc that are billed from offshore.

Insults over tory, no you seem to just want to label me as one


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

msnttf10 said:


> Two things would appear to be infinite - the universe and someones stupidity.
> You've pretty much proved everything, no its Mark Twain :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> Again, do you need ladders for that hole you are digging? The NPNW treaty you speak of, the P means Proliferation - i'll save you a google, that word means increase or spread, so to replace is not to increase or spread. START I and START II was not signed by the UK, its US and Russia only.
> ...


No mark Twain said " never argue with a fool" you clearly didn't "google" that one....[smiley=book2.gif]

A fool and an idiot are different things, although appear to be both in equal measure.

Oh, and the universe is not infinite, it's about 93bn light years across. :wink:

You are not doing too well are you?


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## msnttf10 (Jul 30, 2007)

Albert Einstein is the first quote, the later part of it declares he's not sure about the universe.










Mark Twain was alleged to have said "stupid", an idiot in the english dictionary is synonymous with the word stupid..
But the words fool, and idiot are often interchanged around this saying - feel free to play with google again.. "George Carlin", may have said fool :roll:



















So you moved from a spade to an industrial drilling machine, man that hole's sure looking deep!
I think I'm done, as its said "Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference"
The original source of that is said to be proverbs 26:4, (Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him)


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him. -Proverbs 26:4

Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference. -Mark Twain

"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience."― George Carfin

Didn't Abraham Lincoln say, "The problem with quotes on the internet is that they are so often misattributed."? :wink:

Im going to take the above "advice" and I'll leave it there, your use of "somee-cards" as some form of proof is telling.. :lol: :lol:


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## ag (Sep 12, 2002)

Quoting trusims does not make for a coherent argument on either side.

I do think that governments get a lot of blame for things that happen in peoples' lives. The reality is that they can only create a small amount of framework. The character of a nation is rarely defined by their incumbent administration. The UK doesn't jump from being toffy nosed masochists to incompetant dreamers everytime we elect a new government. Blaming the government is an easy way out, like UKIP blaming Europe for all of the UK's ills. There may be a small measure of truth in it, but the oppertunities offered by living in the UK for self improvement and climbing up the social ladder, for those that want to, beat anywhere in Europe.

The food banks are full of people that have worked hard and feel let down by the "system". In reality, they believed the hype, they thought that the early 2000s good times would last and borrowed to provide themselves and their offspring with what they thought they were entitled to. Nobody is entitled to anything. Be prudent, save for a rainy day, don't buy things you neither need nor use, don't take out contracts that you don't fully understand and you may end your life without passing through the workhouse. Buying stuff you don't need, borrowing money to purchase depreciating luxury items (i.e. borrowing money to buy a nice car when you still have a mortgage), will end in tears. We all seem to have an inflated value of our own worth and our position in society. I remember a study of peoples' attitudes to class finding that many people surviving exclusively on unemployment benefits considered themselves "Middle Class", despite having never worked. Their expectations of what middle class meant were different from most of us, but expectations in terms of "stuff" was very middle class. Just because we're British doesn't make us better than other people or entitled to a better standard of living.


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## bluush (Feb 24, 2010)

+1 on ag's comments above. All the borrowing s*** especially true at this time of year. Borrowing to buy presents of stuff that people didn't want/ need / like, it 'kin madness and to celebrate a fictional sky fairies potential b****** son wtf!


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## Skeee (Jun 9, 2009)

bluush said:


> +1 on ag's comments above. All the borrowing s*** especially true at this time of year. Borrowing to buy presents of stuff that people didn't want/ need / like, it 'kin madness and to celebrate a fictional sky fairies potential b****** son wtf!


 +1


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## mighTy Tee (Jul 10, 2002)

Skeee said:


> bluush said:
> 
> 
> > +1 on ag's comments above. All the borrowing s*** especially true at this time of year. Borrowing to buy presents of stuff that people didn't want/ need / like, it 'kin madness and to celebrate a fictional sky fairies potential b****** son wtf!
> ...


Definition of a "modern Christmas":

_Spending hundreds of pounds buying presents for people who don't want them, while those people spend hundreds of pounds buying you presents you don't want, followed by eating and drinking to excess_


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## bigootang (Dec 9, 2014)

people rely on their JSA and housing benefit. they dont look for work as feel it is their right to benefits. they then cry when they get benefits stopped. they then go to a food bank.
the fact that the use of food banks has risen shows me that the dwp have gotten things moving in the right direction.
there are a lot of jobs out there but these people dont want to work as they get more in benfits than on minimum wage.
Merry Christmas to them all


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

bigootang said:


> people rely on their JSA and housing benefit. they dont look for work as feel it is their right to benefits. they then cry when they get benefits stopped. they then go to a food bank.
> the fact that the use of food banks has risen shows me that the dwp have gotten things moving in the right direction.
> there are a lot of jobs out there but these people dont want to work as they get more in benefits than on minimum wage.
> Merry Christmas to them all!


what part of "60% of people using food banks are in work" dont you get?

JSA is not more than minimum wage. Maybe disability living allowance is, this is where the problem lies. people work the system pretending to be sick, they tried to solve this with ATOS assessments but that went horribly wrong with thousands of genuinely sick people including terminally ill people being forced into looking for work and living on disgusting JSA payments.

the other problem is "benefit sanctions" which is basically punishing people by taking away their already pitiful amount of money, this leaves people with literally nothing, ZERO to live on. they put these sanctions on for the most minor of mistakes, I have had people come into my shop begging for food, its heartbreaking.

merry Christmas to you too.


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## Tangerine Knight (Jul 25, 2010)

bigootang said:


> people rely on their JSA and housing benefit. they dont look for work as feel it is their right to benefits. they then cry when they get benefits stopped. they then go to a food bank.
> the fact that the use of food banks has risen shows me that the dwp have gotten things moving in the right direction.
> there are a lot of jobs out there but these people dont want to work as they get more in benfits than on minimum wage.
> Merry Christmas to them all!


I volunteer in a food bank the vast majority of people using it are working . yes you get your career scroungers but trust me they are not the ones using the food bank. Women with young children are the majority and they have jobs that pay a pitiful wage . As far as there are jobs out there who told you that I served for 9 years then left and joined the police I retired last year and decided to look for something there is nothing so where are all these jobs. I suggest you volunteer for a food bank and your attitude will change.


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

blackpoolfc said:


> bigootang said:
> 
> 
> > people rely on their JSA and housing benefit. they dont look for work as feel it is their right to benefits. they then cry when they get benefits stopped. they then go to a food bank.
> ...


+1

my wife spent 6 months looking for a job. any job. she was applying for dozens a day.

may be plenty of jobs in some areas, but here in Scotland its pretty grim


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## Tangerine Knight (Jul 25, 2010)

I should have said did 9 years in the army then onto the police. I can honestly say there are no jobs. As Brian has said depends where you live but I don't fancy being a carer or working nights in a petrol station did shift work for 32 years not doing it again


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## ScoTTy John (Nov 14, 2013)

I lost my job back in May, paid the good old Garden Leave instead of working my notice. Reason? I didn't work hard enough - so they replaced me with 3 people! In truth, my face didn't fit.

Having started looking for work the very next day, having spent the evening updating my CV, I believed that it would not be long before another job came along, even if it meant temping for some time. The agencies tell me the CV is excellent, my skills and experience are good and very transferable.

Have applied for many hundreds of jobs, mostly at least one rung lower than where I have been. Result? 4 interviews, no job as yet and some carefully contrived 'feedback' from one interview. It would appear that at 52 I am too old, know too much, have too much experience and offer a threat to the youths who are interviewing me. Oh and Audi want graduates to be TRAINEE sales execs!

So, my JSA is now up and I have had to phone the DWP to get them to send me the forms to apply for another Benefit. On asking why the forms weren't made available at my Job Centre visit, the response was that they had nothing to do with my claim! So, there's someone on the phone to pay for, an envelope and postage to pay for. Another level of beaurocracy and all through the post at Christmas when delays are likely.

Owing to the lack of joined up thinking with public transport, it is necessary to have a car to get to the Job Centre, let alone interviews or a place of work.

I don't drink, don't smoke, don't do drugs, have no TV and am a pretty canny shopper, feeding myself good quality and nutritional grub at low cost.

Trying to exist on £72.40 per week isn't easy when you still need a mobile phone to stay in contact at all times, a landline and the associated broadband. All of those are done on the cheapest deals and as I look after my clothes so they last and fashion doesn't bother me.

Factor in heat, light, and a few fripperies like a bar of chocolate or a packet of biscuits to help keep morale up and there isn't much left over. I've been very careful with my spending ever since losing my job, have had to contend with breaking up with my girlfriend and my father becoming ill and needing to go into a nursing home. Additional costs to factor in are some medication required, the aftermath of cancer and now to cover for additional, mental issues relating from constantly taking a beating, 6 months of getting either no acknowledgement of my application (mostly) or 'thanks, but no thanks', 6 months of having to contend with not a lot of help with my father's situation because he was stupid enough to save (hoping to pass some of it at least on to my sister and I), 6 months of not being considered appropriate for ANY level of work, 6 months of trying to find a suitable self employment situation which doesn't require much start up money (you don't get help from DWP if you go self employed), 6 months of getting sub standard customer service from just about everywhere when customer relationship management is my speciality.

Anyone trying to tell me that I am a scrounger, don't want to work, am comfortable on benefit needs to have their head read! I want to work, I need to work, I look for work every day, including Saturdays and Sundays but allowed myself Christmas Day off.

With the rise of zero hours contracts, with so many on minimum wage when the gap between richest and poorest is growing, when costs are being driven upward by those who have more disposable income, I can understand why some are resorting to food banks. Yes, there will be some who have made poor choices and spent money, with the benefit of hindsight, unwisely, but most will never have had the money to put by for a rainy day in the first place.

When there are men prepared to go to a club and put money in a woman's underwear for them to do a dance to simulate sex but begrudge paying that same amount in tax to pay for a nurse that could provide an elderly relative with care there is something VERY wrong with society. When people pay accountants and tax experts money to avoid tax when that could provide better educational facilities and again pay for nurses, we have some SERIOUS questions to ask.

(I don't agree that the NHS needs more money, I believe that it needs fewer overpaid managers and the money spending in the right places - my father has recently suffered as a result of the money not being spent on front line staffing so I DO KNOW what I'm talking about.)

I am also a capitalist and believe that we should all take some responsibility for our own destiny. However, when people are experiencing unfortunate circumstances, the society needs to work to get them back into a productive situation at the earliest opportunity. It is no good to the 'machine' if a proportion of potential consumers are unable to afford the goods and services that it is producing.

There needs to be benevolence, there needs to be compassion, there needs to be support and there needs to be a means of weeding out those who cheat. Whilst the system is so suffocating, demeaning and does little for the self-esteem of those out of work, there is a greater risk that people will attempt to at least be economical with the truth to get a little extra. And why not when those in work fiddle expenses, find ways of not paying tax on fuel used for personal use in the company car, etc.

If those in work are skewing the rules to their benefit for a few extra pounds here and there (when they have plenty to start with), why would anyone expect their behaviour to change when they are forced to claim benefit?

Before pointing the finger at others we should realise that there are 3 fingers pointing back at ourselves. Why do we expect exemplary behaviour of others when we ourselves aren't achieving those same standards?

Unless we adopt the idea of the workhouses again, a mature society needs to serve those who fall outside of its 'normal' parameters and do its best to support those who are outside to getting back inside. We need to be altruistic, we need to think about ways of helping those less fortunate than ourselves. If we don't, before too long you get a divisive society, gated communities, mis-understanding, maybe even compulsory euthanasia for a loved family elder because they consume without putting anything back. 
Take a long hard look at yourself and wonder how you would feel if you were forced to use a food bank. How would you cope if your circumstances changed, your savings became depleted and you were looking up to others to support you sufficiently to get back into a better place again? Unless you are prepared to judge yourself first and come up with an unblemished record, please don't judge others who are desperate to get back to work and be contributing more to society but are hindered in part by your judgemental attitude and the stigmas that arise from it.


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

I'm fully behind you John! And I'll PM you later tonight x


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## thenewguy (Oct 4, 2012)

ScoTTy John said:


> I lost my job back in May, paid the good old Garden Leave instead of working my notice. Reason? I didn't work hard enough - so they replaced me with 3 people! In truth, my face didn't fit.
> 
> Having started looking for work the very next day, having spent the evening updating my CV, I believed that it would not be long before another job came along, even if it meant temping for some time. The agencies tell me the CV is excellent, my skills and experience are good and very transferable.
> 
> ...


Hope a few of the more judgemental posters on this thread read this. Hope everything works out mate don't let it get on top of you


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## bigootang (Dec 9, 2014)

This post was originally about food banks but has slowly moved to the painful subject of finding work. 
Food banks are open to all not just unemployed people.

John:
I really hope your comments are not aimed at me as you do not know my personal situation and I do not wish to write a long detailed post telling everyone on here. I am entitled to my own opinion.

With your own situation I can really understand your frustration. You wake up in the morning very early and from that moment on you are looking for work as it is the most important thing in your life right now.

Your day will consist of 8 or 9 hours looking at job websites, calling job agencies not only looking for permanent work but temp work especially over Christmas, making applications and carefully tailoring your cv for each and every application you make everyday.

I dont have to tell you as you will already be visiting daily the local work clubs in your area as they too have support on offer.

You have looked at retraining and career changes.

You have sought advice on interview techniques and taken every bit of advice and training that was on offer at your jobcentre and their local training providers which also includes attirude and how others perceive you.

As you have mentioned self employment you will have used gov.UK and then asked your Job centre work coach about New Enterprise Allowance as you have a viable self employed business idea for which you are aware there actually is plenty of support.

And clearly you will have looked very hard on gov.uk to find out why you may not be entitled to benefits or have to claim a different benefit as it is not everyone's right to receive benefits. And you will have printed out the forms rather than phone and get them posted to you or printed them in those local job clubs you visit daily and taken advantage of their free stamps.

I can understand your becoming bitter that the buses are not suited to your situation because whilst you will have the half price gov subsidised bus pass from the jobcentre and you may be posting on a TT forum however that will have long been sold so you have all the funds possible to speed you into any, yes any employment possible which goes without saying.

I can empathise with your father's situation as only last week I buried my uncle who like your father had bothered to save.

However I don't point any fingers.

And I don't blame anyone and everyone least of all someone whos situation you have no clue about and who just wanted to contribute to this post.


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## Tangerine Knight (Jul 25, 2010)

But you said in your post that the fact that food banks are so popular is because the DWP have got it right . You brought the job topic into it,saying there were plenty of jobs out there and basically people were not looking hard enough as they were to reliant on their job seekers allowance and winged when they were sanctioned. My youngest lost his job a few years back and eventually found a part time job on a zero hour contract when he was claiming JSA he was always getting sanctioned and trust me some of the excuses they used were bordering on medieval . like I said to you if you think there all scroungers go and help out at one you will soon change your attitude.


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## bigootang (Dec 9, 2014)

Can't comment on why your son was always being sanctioned but believe me it wasn't dwp who were making excuses..
However the common theme so far is it's always someone elses fault or others are to blame....
how about a little taking ownership and responsibility rather than blaming others or in your example another body is at fault because possibly your son didn't do ebough to look for work and hence had his benefit stopped. 
It's not a god give right to receive benefit and the benefits system is not a charity.
read my post was your son treating finding work like a job ie spending 7 or 8 hours a day intensely immersed in work activities?
Anyway good on him for finding work in the end.


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## Tangerine Knight (Jul 25, 2010)

Yes he was trust me your not taking ownership for your comments though. Like I've said if your such an expert on these matters go and do a couple of hours at one,or are you to busy getting your post count up posting things


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## bigootang (Dec 9, 2014)

And you know he was how?
Living with you? And if so he was claiming fraudulently then.. 
And now you are turning this on me saying I'm trying to get my count up..what a joke! I'd rather quit this forum than have to converse with tosh like that....
As I have already said in my reply to John...you do not know who I am or what I do and I have the right to my own opinion.
Well done.


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## Tangerine Knight (Jul 25, 2010)

How was he claiming fraudulently, he had worked for 5 years paid tax and insurance and yes he was living with me and being in the job I was in do you think I would have risked my career aiding and abetting fraud, all I will say to you is don't look down your nose at people who are less fortunate than yourself. Anyway in all my time on the forum I've never felt the need to put anyone on my foe list but you've just gained the honour of being the first,enjoy,and post away old lad with your nonsense because I can't see it.


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## bigootang (Dec 9, 2014)

Nice 
And that's from a member on here with over 900 posts and supposedly responsible
Good grief 
pram
toys
[smiley=bigcry.gif]


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

bigootang said:


> And you know he was how?
> Living with you? And if so he was claiming fraudulently then..
> And now you are turning this on me saying I'm trying to get my count up..what a joke! I'd rather quit this forum than have to converse with tosh like that....
> As I have already said in my reply to John...you do not know who I am or what I do and I have the right to my own opinion.
> Well done.


well there it is folks, the proof that he doesn't have a fking clue what he is talking about, :roll: :roll: :roll:

you get two types of JSA. contribution based and income based. if you have been in work you are entitled to 13 weeks of contribution based JSA you get this because you have paid into the system with national insurance contributions, you get this regardless of income or household income.

as for sanctions always being the claimants fault, when my wife was claiming CONTRIBUTION BASED JSA she got a weeks money stopped. the reason, she missed the deadline to apply for a job(on-line application only). why did she miss the deadline. because she was at a job interview THEY sent her for.... they KNEW this was the case, she explained that to them and they just wernt interested, at 2:30pm (her sign on time) they sent her to Glasgow for an interview at 3.30pm and told her she had to apply on-line for another.

how about the one in the headlines recently,. a man had to stop a physical job due to heart problems, he then missed an appointment for a medical examination for work fitness and got sanctioned... his reason, he had a heart attack. HOW VERY DARE HE.

the problem with sanctions is its guilty until proven innocent, they sanction you for the silliest things then its up to you to appeal. meanwhile while waiting weeks for a decision you have NOTHING to live on and they do not give emergency crisis loans any more..... hence the rise in food banks.

oh and if you would rather quit the forum.... im sure you wont be missed


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

ScoTTy John said:


> I lost my job back in May, paid the good old Garden Leave instead of working my notice. Reason? I didn't work hard enough - so they replaced me with 3 people! In truth, my face didn't fit.
> 
> ...........


stick in there fella, i know how you feel and have been in the same situation, its not easy...

good luck.


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/di ... as-4882486


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## bigootang (Dec 9, 2014)

Oh dear Brian..nice agressive blame everyone else attitide!
Your wife would have been given a decent amount of time to apply for the job as I am fairly sure the time line to apply for it would not have opened and closed within the the hour she was at an interview. 
What a joke!


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## ScoTTy John (Nov 14, 2013)

Thanks to everyone who has responded to my post. My intention was to show how close my personal circumstances are to needing help with food. If I had any dependants it would probably be a necessity. It doesn't take much to tip the balance, particularly if you live in an area with high housing costs.

We on TT Forum are a community, expending a lot of time and effort on assisting one another, cutting costs, preventing wasted effort on re-inventing the wheel where known issues/fixes are concerned. We don't take the view, "Your TT isn't working, therefore you should be shunned", so it is a shame that we have lost a lot of community spirit in society as a whole and often tar those working hard to find a job with the same brush as those who genuinely don't want to work.

I have to say that there are a few pointers in bigootang's response that are news to me; I've found out more as a result of your response than from 6 months of visiting my Advisor! To be honest, I see my responsibility as being finding me another job, not searching through the .Gov website to find out what benefits are available to me.

Similar to our beloved cars being off the road as a result of a major failure, I am using this opportunity to review an awful lot. How should I rebuild? Should upgraded components be used? What upgraded components are available to me? How available to me are they? If I can't afford them now, plot when the earliest opportunity might be to incorporate (i.e., get back to work, enrol in evening classes).

One thing's for certain; I will be looking at life a lot differently in future. Having had health issues in the past, I take nothing for granted. I have always tried to encourage and support the endeavours of others to be the best that they can and will look to ways of being of greater value to my family, friends and community in this respect going forward.

I appreciate everyone's response to my contribution on that post. It has given me an extra bit of boost to my resolve.

I hope never to be in the position of needing to call on the use of a foodbank and feel for those who genuinely do rely on them through no fault of their own.


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## Shug750S (Feb 6, 2012)

ScoTTy John said:


> Thanks to everyone who has responded to my post. My intention was to show how close my personal circumstances are to needing help with food. If I had any dependants it would probably be a necessity. It doesn't take much to tip the balance, particularly if you live in an area with high housing costs.
> 
> We on TT Forum are a community, expending a lot of time and effort on assisting one another, cutting costs, preventing wasted effort on re-inventing the wheel where known issues/fixes are concerned. We don't take the view, "Your TT isn't working, therefore you should be shunned", so it is a shame that we have lost a lot of community spirit in society as a whole and often tar those working hard to find a job with the same brush as those who genuinely don't want to work.
> 
> ...


Stick in there mate, keep applying and hopefully something will turn up. What industry / business are you involved in? You never know someone on here may know someone or have an in...

I was made redundant last November, and I know how stressful it was at times, and I had a decent severance package, so wasn't that bothered if if took a few months. Ended up back in a similar role after Easter, slightly less money, but better work life balance, no management crap, and really settling in well now after some 8 months.

Keep your chin up pal.


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

bigootang said:


> Oh dear Brian..nice agressive blame everyone else attitide!
> Your wife would have been given a decent amount of time to apply for the job as I am fairly sure the time line to apply for it would not have opened and closed within the the hour she was at an interview.
> What a joke!


where am I blaming everyone and being aggressive.....

where did i say it opened and closed in an hour. it takes 1-2 hours to travel to Glasgow in traffic from Kilmarnock. the closing date was that night. 5pm, you are saying im a liar? the only joke here is you.

read these, I suppose all are just lying, the second one is remarkably similar to what happened to my wife.

http://stupidsanctions.tumblr.com/

heres more 
http://unemploymentmovement.com/forum/b ... xperienced
http://falseeconomy.org.uk/blog/a-list- ... xperienced
http://welfaretales.wordpress.com/2013/ ... nctions-3/
http://libcom.org/news/effect-benefit-s ... s-22102012

how can you say forcing people into food banks is "showing the system works" being a few minuits late for an appointment at the job centre is enough for them to stop your benefit payments, they also stop any rent payments which can put you at risk of eviction.

*do you think being forced to endure the indignity of going to a foodbank and the threat of homelessness is a suitable "punishment" for being a few minuets late for an appointment????*


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## ReTTro fit (Nov 9, 2014)

I believe everyone has the same opportunities as everyone one else, I don't believe in all the free handouts

There is work out there but sometimes it just doesn't suit ! TUFF !
I've NEVER claimed a penny off the state for anything and doubt if I would even be entitled to, wouldn't even know how to go about it

I've been out of work before but I've done what ever it takes to find work/money, I'd clean the motorway with a toothbrush if I had too !!
I believe ALOT ( not everyone ) of people have it way too easy and don't want to work and are happy living in a free flat, claiming benefits etc ( that I'm paying for ) 
Funny how they all have a car or can afford taxis, all got £100 trainers on, all smoke, all drink, spend half there benefits on lottery or scratch cards !
They should be monitored !!
There are genuine people that do require help but help is what it should be, not a lifestyle !

Being late for interviews / appointments is unacceptable if your not working, bet they never miss the cut off time to get the giro !

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

1wheelonly said:


> I believe everyone has the same opportunities as everyone one else, I don't believe in all the free handouts
> 
> There is work out there but sometimes it just doesn't suit ! TUFF !
> I've NEVER claimed a penny off the state for anything and doubt if I would even be entitled to, wouldn't even know how to go about it
> ...


another person showing a complete lack of knowledge about how this works.

firstly, you would be entitled to 13 weeks job seekers allowance,its YOUR money if you have paid enough national insurance, do you use NHS hospitals, because by your logic of not getting handouts form the state you need to stop using them.

most people on benefits want to work, the habitual scroungers you see on programs like "benefits street" are in the extreme minority,



1wheelonly said:


> Funny how they all have a car or can afford taxis, all got £100 trainers on, all smoke, all drink, spend half there benefits on lottery or scratch cards !


this is utter nonsense. its an urban myth, and a crass generalisation of people, stop reading the daily mail lol... NOBODY on JSA can afford the things you mention,

this is what you get.

"Contribution-based JSA is £57.35 per week if you are under 25 and £72.40 if you are 25 or over; but you may get less if you have part time earnings or a personal/occupational pension. It is difficult to say how much income-based JSA you might get."

not a red cent more...

if somebody is smoking drinking lavishing on expensive trainers then they have another form of income, they are probably committing benefit fraud, this is COMPLETELY different to what we are discussing here.

as for "monitoring" peoples spending of their job seekers allowance, how the hell are you going to do that, pay a man to follow them about. come on. dont you think the gvt spy on us enough?



1wheelonly said:


> Being late for interviews / appointments is unacceptable if your not working, bet they never miss the cut off time to get the giro !


have you NEVER been late for something through no fault of your own????

again your showing that you have no clue what you are talking about, you dont get a "giro" and there is no cut off time, never was. benefit payments are paid automatically into a bank account, been this way for about 12 years.


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## ReTTro fit (Nov 9, 2014)

I know what I see ! 
You sound like another one of the do gooders that helps this country get it the state it's in

You clearly know a lot about it which leads me to believe you've used the system too much yourself

As for you telling me I don't know what I'm talking about, I'm the one paying for it all that disagrees with it !

Just for your interest I use private health ! That I pay for !

I think your comment about people not affording etc and being a limited few, you clearly don't live in the real world !

The countries full of free loaders ! 
You need to take those rose tinted glasses off

As for monitoring, why would the odd visit to there residence wouldn't hurt ! 
That way if there living lavishly they loose it

It all boils down to WHY SHOULD I PAY FOR PEOPLE THAT DONT DESERVE IT

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## Shug750S (Feb 6, 2012)

brian1978 said:


> 1wheelonly said:
> 
> 
> > I've NEVER claimed a penny off the state for anything and doubt if I would even be entitled to, wouldn't even know how to go about it
> ...


Interesting debate going on here, my own experience below when made redundant last November.

Had never claimed anything in 36 years in work. Made redundant so after a week went to the job centre basically to get confirmation if / how this would affect my NI contributions. 
Sat in a room for about an hour before going to a desk / screen with a bloke on other side whose accent was so bad I could hardly understand him.

Tried to tell him I was recently made redundant and I would be looking for a new job, but realistically didn't think the job centre would be able to help, as I work in a specialist role and would be contacting companies in that field to find a new job.

All I wanted to know was did I have to fill in forms for NI or how to keep payments up (if I needed to). All he wanted to do was out me on the job seakers list and see if there was anything in the system. He said I wouldn't get any payout and I hadn't even wanted one... I suspected he didn't have a clue what my profession was and couldn't understand that it was a pretty limited field and I was confident of finding work after Christmas when I started talking to people.

Basically he started having a go at me about job seakers allowance as I didn't want to go for any interviews he might have, which were nothing like I would need to do, and I had decided to take a couple of months out and chill. I was pretty sure I wouldn't get job seakers and hadn't even asked about it. I decided this guy was just reading from the computer screen so in the end I got up and left.

i fully appreciate not everyone has the cushion I had, and it's hard out there if you're looking and there's nothing in your area.

Do also recall watching a program on TV when I was off work and all of the people on it moaning about their entitlement seemed to have the latest iPhone whereas I had gone out and bought a SIM card for £12 / month and a £25 handset for whilst I was off work to stay in contact. All depends on your priorities I suppose

Not sure any of the above helps in the debate, but just my personal experience


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

1wheelonly said:


> I know what I see !
> You sound like another one of the do gooders that helps this country get it the state it's in
> 
> You clearly know a lot about it which leads me to believe you've used the system too much yourself
> ...


dearie me. :roll: you really dont have a clue, do you?

firstly explain to me how the country is in a state due to "do gooders" personally I feel think the country is in a state because of successive incompetent governments... but that's another story :roll:

I dont have rose tinted glasses on, and yes I have been in the situation where I have HAD to use it, you must have a pretty privileged life not to, but thankfully I have no need to use it now and have worked bloody hard to get where I am.

what I do know is when I was in that situation life was miserable. people on JSA do not have lots of money. you are deluded. the country is not "full of scroungers" its probably less than 1% of the population.

you sound like a lovely empathetic man, good luck to you, i hope you never find yourself in a state of need. :roll:

as for visiting peoples homes to see if they are not poor enough.... pmsl.


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

Shug750S said:


> Do also recall watching a program on TV when I was off work and all of the people on it moaning about their entitlement seemed to have the latest iPhone whereas I had gone out and bought a SIM card for £12 / month and a £25 handset for whilst I was off work to stay in contact. All depends on your priorities I suppose
> 
> Not sure any of the above helps in the debate, but just my personal experience


these programs do people on benefits no favours, as ive said before these people are in the minority and make good television, they prob make money by other means, you cannot afford nice things on JSA that's a simple fact shug. its £50 a week for under 25yo and £70 as week for over 25 years old.

you would have been entitles to 13 weeks contribution based JSA. it is not means tested.


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## ReTTro fit (Nov 9, 2014)

I work hard and always have, I have savings and propery which is / will be my pension 
My life is privileged because I work / save hard etc 
As mentioned before, I'm not saying that it everyone, I know and understand that there are a lot of unfortunate people out there that do deserve handouts, I'm just saying that I think your percentages are wrong mate ! 
Not on here to fall out, just my opinion, I give a lot of money to charities etc and would help anyone out in need, I'm just saying theres ALOT that ruin it for others

Don't be offended by my bluntness mate, it's only a debate about stuff we have no control over

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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

1wheelonly said:


> I
> As mentioned before, I'm not saying that it everyone, I know and understand that there are a lot of unfortunate people out there that do deserve handouts,





1wheelonly said:


> Funny how *they all *have a car or can afford taxis, all got £100 trainers on, all smoke, all drink, spend half there benefits on lottery or scratch cards !
> They should be monitored !!


you certainly appeared to be referring to everyone


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/com ... 20562.html


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## Shug750S (Feb 6, 2012)

brian1978 said:


> Shug750S said:
> 
> 
> > Do also recall watching a program on TV when I was off work and all of the people on it moaning about their entitlement seemed to have the latest iPhone whereas I had gone out and bought a SIM card for £12 / month and a £25 handset for whilst I was off work to stay in contact. All depends on your priorities I suppose
> ...


Cheers Brian, I must admit I wasn't looking for anything, and the bloke behind the counter couldn't understand I had been made redundant and just wanted to know about NI contributions. He basically indicated I would not get anything unless I was willing to go for interviews at McD's or part time Xmas shop work. I really lost interest as was planning on taking a few weeks and then start looking...

Looks like the staff at the centre really need some training, as I missed out on £970 there... Point is I payed in for 36 years and for a short time was out of work, and was basically told tough... Payed in enough to buy at least a 2 bedroom flat for an MP in all those years as well [smiley=bigcry.gif]


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## Shug750S (Feb 6, 2012)

And whilst in the job centre I did notice I was about the only person in there without visible tattoos, not popping out for a *** every 10 minutes, and not dressed from Sports Direct. Apart from the security guards.

I also seems to be the only one there without a nasty looking dog...

You almost get the impression there maybe was another job centre place for people actually wanting to work...


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

Do all people from a privileged background think that everybody is born equal and have the same opportunity in life? To keep to that belief do they abandon their own kids at birth to avoid passing any of it on unfairly?

Do poor people share that point of view about equal opportunity and privilege? What can they pass onto their kids even if they wanted to apart from the motivation to escape poverty?

A differing perspective and I think if we apply any simple logic and knowledge of natural human motivation to that stark reality we know the real answer.

Cutting through the prejudice; the question posed was what has caused the exponential rise in the use of food banks?

Are we becoming a more unequal society and if so what has caused that? An increased level of greed or laziness of "scroungers" who like to go to food banks in preference to working for a living or an error of policy born out of prejudice pandering to the out of touch and perhaps more privileged sections of the electorate?

Which is more likely an explanation?


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