# revo technik



## rktec

Paul-S3 metioned these guys a wee while ago as a sort of advancement if you like over the APR route of chipping technology:

http://www.revotechnik.com/

Although there is little definitive info on the site at the moment, whats you're initial reactions/informed opinions & otherwise?

On the face of it ( + IMHO) this seems to be ideal, plug into interface - upload data/whatever - then start car, ready to go! 10 mins! Â NO soldering, NO sending off ECU etc... and when in 'stock' mode is undetectable to dealers - nice Â : Â  Â - oh and for about Â£600 Â 

too good to be true ? Â :-/


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## scoTTy

Since Mitchell and the APR guys are involved then no, it won't be too good to be true.

I think this may well be the product of 2003 for TT owners.


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## jonah

so basically all u would need is a laptop to upload the program into the ecu and away u go?
or would u need the vadcom thingy?


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## PaulRS3

They upload the programs....

and you pay for that , and buy the dongle to switch it depending which features you want... depends which dongle.

No pc required on the consumers side, unless you go for the race package.....

Thats how i understand it from the website and chats with Mitchell.

I cannot wait. I was going the APR EMCS route with them in Dec's sale, , but wanted the latest technology and waited.


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## sTTu

> I think this may well be the product of 2003 for TT owners.


Does it only work with all TT's then ? Was thinking about chipping my year old TTR if I don't sell it, this seemed ideal if undetectable by the dealers.

sTTu


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## David_A

Any idea where the dongle plugs in? I guess it must be in the place where they plug the VAG COM in or it would necessitate some wiring of sorts - have i got this right?

And any idea how much more power and torque it would give an otherwise standard 225?

I've always been a bit 'scared' of chipping the car but as this is more of a patch  for the software than a chip it seems more acceptable - thats if it is totally undetectable to our mod unfriendly warranty people. If it is I want one!

Dave


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## scoTTy

I only know what I've seen and heard on here and on their site but it seems that they should be able to do this on any VAG 1.8T engine.

The dongle plugs into the ODBII port (by the bonnet release) the same as the VAG-COM or the dealers diagnostic kit.

I would expect power ot be similar to their current performance i.e. approx 260-270bhp.

The fact it's sw rather than a chip means many more people will think that it's just a tweak therefore acceptable. In reality that's all a chip has ever been but it's just the technology wasn't there to do it without changing a physical component.

Bare in mind that this doesn't change the facts about defrauding Audi or your insurance company :-/


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## coupe-sport

looks great - still want to see that there are no mods to the ecu though. I'd heard rumours of flashing the ecu through the diagnostics port...

Not one to tell the dealer, but definetly the insurance company


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## forgemotorsport

Available from Forge more details soon


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## sTTu

> Available from Forge more details soon


Any chance of a group buy ?

sTTu


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## coupe-sport

Forge - is this really as it seems, no mods to the ECU ??


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## PaulS

Very interested in this Â


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## David_A

I'd tell the insurance, but not Audi - told me the ECU was broken then I'd be in a dilemma :-/

Dave


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## donny

> I
> 
> Bare in mind that this doesn't change the facts about defrauding Audi or your insurance company Â :-/


ScoTTy
As if the fine upstanding people of this forum would do that tut tut   ;D


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## scoTTy

Yes you're right. I apologise to all for casting apersions on your honesty!!  ;D


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## marttin

put me down for one ;D


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## forgemotorsport

> Forge - is this really as it seems, no mods to the ECU ??


It sure is , we have been working on this project with Revo for some time now, Just plug in the lap top to the ECU and away you go. No messing around .Totally undetectable, great power .

We have the programmes optimised to perform with all Forge hardware , DVs Intercoolers exhaust etc .


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## gcp

> It sure is , we have been working on this project with Revo for some time now, Just plug in the lap top to the ECU and away you go. No messing around .Totally undetectable, great Â power .
> 
> We have the programmes optimised to perform with all Forge hardware , DVs Intercoolers exhaust etc .


Is this actually available now then ?

Group buy discount ?


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## ADB

> .....Just plug in the lap top to the ECU and away you go


Does the Laptop remain connected to the diagnostic port or is it just a re-flash of the prom?

Leaving the laptop plugged in seems a bit dodgy to me - bearing in mind the stability of modern OS's - 80mph and Windows hangs........ 

Andy


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## beepcake

Does windows detect the car as a device?  Seeing Audi TT Coupe in device manager would be quite cool


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## jampott

> Does windows detect the car as a device? Seeing Audi TT Coupe in device manager would be quite cool


Not as cool as TT Roadster, unfortunately 

Forge, will this work with all variations and model years, or limited to recent 2002/03 models or what?


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## forgemotorsport

Please do not treat this as a blatant advert. It is in response for a request for further information.

As a sign of good faith to the TT forum members, we would be happy to come along to one of your future meetings and install (to non-chipped cars only) demonstration software at no charge to any who wish to give it a try

Forge Motorsport are pleased to announce their association with Revo Technik who are the leaders in serial port programming technology. This technology allows performance software to be written to your cars engine management computer via the vehicle diagnostic port. This will alleviate the need to remove the ECU from the car and the hazards of soldering a new â€œchipâ€ onto the ECU. Revo Technik also offer the SPS (Serial Port Switching) device which allows the user to select between different ECU modes. The standard mode is the factory original while the performance modes offer from 30 to 70+ BHP gains depending on your vehicle. The Revo Technik performance software is totally invisible to diagnostic equipment and cannot be re-flashed or overwritten by dealer emulators. This stealth technology negates the worry of warranty and insurance issues as it is completely undetectable, even if the ECU is removed and inspected. In addition, when using the Serial Port Switching, you will be able to switch between the original and performance without ever raising the bonnet.
The Revo Technik software has been optimized and tested to work with Forge Motorsport products so you can rest assured that when you install a replacement diverter valve, a performance exhaust or an up-rated intercooler you will see the best results possible.
If you want to ensure total and complete compatibility between all your performance upgrades
You need to select Forge - Revo

Forge Motorsport and Revo have a very knowledgeable team of development technicians and engineers who have worked together to bring you the relationship between power, drivability, and reliability. We have gone to great lengths to test our products and to ensure the engine component longevity is not degraded. Making power is very easy, making power that is smooth and safe under all conditions is very difficult. We typically make more power than the competition using lower boost pressures. We can do this because we increase the efficiency of the engine - not by forcing the turbo to work outside its efficiency range. It is not uncommon to see a decrease in emissions and an increase in fuel economy after the modification.

So if youâ€™re after the ultimate in tuning for your vehicle, consider the benefits:

Â· Full Serial Port programming that does not require ECU removal. 
Â· No soldering. 
Â· Totally invisible to man and machine. 
Â· Fully switchable 
Â· Optional variable boost and timing adjustment software (available soon). 
Â· Optional anti theft mode that disables the ECU. 
Â· Free trial period built into the software so that you can try before you buy. 
Â· Advanced tuning components available that have been matched to the software to give you maximum performance. 
Â· Realistic pricing structure. (from Â£499 for the TT)

If you would like further details or you would like to arrange a booking for a full installation or just the demonstration (time limited) software , please email or call on or after Monday 6th 
Our lines will be fully manned from Monday 6th January


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## jonah

u can do mine at the AGM if u want to ;D


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## coupe-sport

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

thanks Forge - will be ringing you monday


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## jonah

Get inline coupe


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## jonah

This time limited is it like freeware ???
can imaginge driving along then bumf no power and a notice to send a cheque for $9 dollars to forge ;D


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## jonah

What about doing a free installation to someones car so then they can write a full article in the TTOC mag ;D


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## rktec

less choice up here for reputable agents - so I am more than willing to experiment for the Heathen minority . . . Scottish Meet on 12th Jan


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## gcp

Does the cost include any rolling road time or is this extra/unnecessary ?


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## forgemotorsport

gcp

We can do this anywhere. Rolling road time is not necessary


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## rktec

Forge - you have IM


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## gcp

> gcp
> 
> We can do this anywhere. Rolling road time is not necessary


Is it not wise to RR before and after to :-
Find/record the current power
Find if any problems exist that may be detrimental to the increase in power.
Find/record the power afterwoulds.

Distance is not a probem for me, I can almost see Gloucester from here.

gcp


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## jonah

The only thing that worries me is microsoft os being used on my car :-/
reminded me of this
http://www.matthill.demon.co.uk/comedy/microsoft.html


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## forgemotorsport

> ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
> 
> thanks Forge - will be ringing you monday Â


Look forward to seeing you James


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## Lisa.

Let me recap as a untechie female.

I go along to the EGM ( or down to Gloucester).

Forge plug a laptop into my ECU ( which is the computer in the engine?) they download some stuff which, at the flick of a switch, gives me between 30-70 BPH.
It is undectable
it doesn't affect your insurance ( unless you tell them)
It costs Â£499 for the full sysyem
and you can have a free time limited trial for nothing.

If thats all there is to it then I'm joining the queue too. ;D

Lisa Â


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## ADB

I'd like to know the legan angle on all this.....

If this IS just only a re-flash of the existing ECU prom then why charge Â£500? Agreed this is cheaper than most chip/re-maps but surely there can be no copyright on this software as it must already be on dodgy legal ground anyway (re-engineering the OE Audi program?).

I am sure the software will get 'leaked ' onto the public domain, along with the cable/circuit diagrams (same as VAGCOM I expect).

Â£500?, Bill/Jim/Dave etc who does the PSX copies will do it for Â£20........

Just my thoughts :-/

Andy


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## pgtt

Forge, cheque is in the post  ;D


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## forgemotorsport

Lisa.

Spot on .

Where is the AGM going to be held and when
We will try and come


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## coupe-sport

ADB - how is this dodgy ? - its a remap of the code. You could say that most tuners start with the standard map as the baseline before tweaking the map (or completely re-writing it).

Superchips have been doing this on the later BMW's for a while now, but this system seems even more sophisticated.

The cost - think of the development time for the remapping - not cheap.

Good luck to Revo and Forge - an innovative new way forward in remapping

rgds


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## pgtt

is there an exact price out yet for TTOC members?
I think i will treat myself as its my birthday on the 7th 8)


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## Silversea

Forge, Any word on when the AE code files will be completed and ready for sale ???


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## thorney

Re the cost - it's software. The price per item will always seem high (Â£500 for 5 mins ffs) but the pricing reflects the months and months of time gone into developing it.


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## Major Audi Parts Guru

This has to be the future for chip tuning,it sounds brilliant


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## Lisa.

> Lisa.
> 
> Spot on .
> 
> Where is the AGM going to be held and when
> We will try and come


Venue: Â 
Cable & Wireless Â Â 
Learning & Development Centre Â Â 
320 Westwood Heath Road Â Â 
Coventry Â Â 
CV4 8GP Â Â 
United Kingdom Â Â 
Â 
Date: Â 
Sat Jan 11th Â 2003
Â 
Time: Â 
Plan to start around lunchtime.


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## scoTTy

If you come along you can do my free upgrade from APR to RevoTechnik if you want (as long as I don't lose any functionality or performance!!!)


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## forgemotorsport

SilverSea225

These codes will be done really soon


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## coupe-sport

Diesel model testing and a full review ...


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## ADB

> ADB - how is this dodgy ? - its a remap of the code. You could say that most tuners start with the standard map as the baseline before tweaking the map (or completely re-writing it).
> 
> chip company have been doing this on the later BMW's for a while now, but this system seems even more sophisticated.
> 
> The cost - think of the development time for the remapping - not cheap.
> 
> Good luck to Revo and Forge - an innovative new way forward in remapping
> 
> rgds


OK, not necessarily _'dodgy'_ but certainly not copyright-able, can you imagine if someone uploaded some code to your ECU (bootleg or whatever) and Forge/Revo/APR tried sueing you? I think you could have a field day - You copy Revo software and they sue you - Revo effectively copied Audi's software so Audi sue Revo? Its worth thinking about?

This is JUST software; alright the development costs are going to be high, but just to make a comparison:

Microsoft spend millions developing Office XP and then release it for about Â£400 - how many people do you know who use it and have legitimately paid for it? Alright compaines pay for it (and probably Contractors for the VAT) but home users? I think I know one :-X

The same can be said for Music on the Internet - how many Forum members download MP3's for free? I am sure the record compaines don't approve :-/

This is all just a copyright issue - OK if there happens to be a problem with the code and something breaks on your car then a legitimately purchased re-flash ('cause that's all it is) is probably covered whereas a bootleg one isn't. Saying that didn't the S u p e r C h i p s thing happen a while back that wasn't covered?

Andy


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## forgemotorsport

scoTTy

This will have to be done by Revo as its an APR issue , I am sorry we cannot help on this one


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## thorney

Not disagreeing with you and running a software company myself I know exactly what you mean. We patent all of our code/function but there really is very little we can do to stop some bastard stealing, copying it and using it themselves. Patent pretection etc is utter crap. Charging a higher Â£Â£Â£ for it is one way of building that risk into your margin.

There is one barrier to bootleg code in this example. You download a bootleg XP the worse case is (if its utter crap) is a need for a total reformat of your PC (assuming you made a backup). With engine ECU code the worse case is a run lean problem leading to a complete engine blow. A new engine for an RS4 is Â£10k  There is no way I would mess with my ECU (software or otherwise) unless it was with a reputable company who would fix it (and pay for it) if something catestrophic went wrong.


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## jonah

> OK, not necessarily 'dodgy' but certainly not copyright-able, can you imagine if someone uploaded some code to your ECU (bootleg or whatever) and Forge/Revo/APR tried sueing you? I think you could have a field day - You copy Revo software and they sue you - Revo effectively copied Audi's software so Audi sue Revo? Its worth thinking about?
> 
> This is JUST software; alright the development costs are going to be high, but just to make a comparison:
> 
> Microsoft spend millions developing Office XP and then release it for about Â£400 - how many people do you know who use it and have legitimately paid for it? Alright compaines pay for it (and probably Contractors for the VAT) but home users? I think I know one
> 
> The same can be said for Music on the Internet - how many Forum members download MP3's for free? I am sure the record compaines don't approve
> 
> This is all just a copyright issue - OK if there happens to be a problem with the code and something breaks on your car then a legitimately purchased re-flash ('cause that's all it is) is probably covered whereas a bootleg one isn't. Saying that didn't the S u p e r C h i p s thing happen a while back that wasn't covered?
> 
> Andy


This post should be in offtopic as its a tottally diferent subject.
to get it back on track
does this come with warranty?


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## ADB

Thorney I know where you are coming from - any software that I download is always virus scanned etc There is always the possibility that some evil b'stard has hacked code so it won't work properly and would f*ck your system up (be it PC or Car) but look at all the DVD Firmware stuff thats out there - Good-willed people activley post pages, instructions, hacked firmware updates etc so DVD players (and drives) can be region-selectable, remove Macrovision, play VCD's etc. Same can be said for mobile phones and unlocking them so you can use them with different networks.

The whole internet thing makes all this much easier and accessible. I am just saying that if this is JUST software then paying Â£500 for it will just make people even more determinned to hack it and post it so everyone can download it - bearing in mind my comments on how this can't be copyright-able

Andy


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## jonah

Ok difference 30k car Â£99 dvd says it all


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## rktec

Microsoft sized companies will always re-coup their millions . . . no matter how ripped-off their software becomes - however if the 'honest' r&d of Forge et.al. is ripped-off then (not being as big as Microsoft - nor would they want to be I wager) they will not be able to cover their costs and make a profit = the overall result being that we will not see such innovations again as it will not be finacially/commercially viable !!! :-/

And I second the concern about hacked/copied software from not 'reputable' sources - wouldn't touch them with a bargepole for my baby


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## Lisa.

So Forge,
Will you be going to the EGM/AGM next Saturday?

I wasn't going, but I might if you're going to be there, otherwise I'll pay you a visit in Gloucester, if I can find you again .

And is there a warranty and what does it cover.

Lisa


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## thorney

Yup. Revo stuff looks interesting but as its software only I'd want a cast iron warranty/insurance policy that my engine is covered if it goes bang. Same really applies to other chip work etc but as some of the other companies offer more by way of mechanical work to back it up it has to be a concern.

I'm not trying to be negative, on the face of it looks fantastic and I'd be quite intered for the 4 but only with that protection in place.


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## Major Audi Parts Guru

> The whole internet thing makes all this much easier and accessible. Â I am just saying that if this is JUST software then paying Â£500 for it will just make people even more determinned to hack it and post it so everyone can download it - bearing in mind my comments on how this can't be copyright-able


Andy
Have you ever come across a website with ECU code on it ?


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## dunks3

> Andy
> Have you ever come across a website with ECU code on it ?


..and if you did, would you use it too!


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## Major Audi Parts Guru

Another thing to remember is that there are approximately 2000 DIFFERENT ECU part numbers amongst the cars within the VAG group


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## ADB

Dunk, Major Audi Guy

No I havent, but thats not to say it won't happen - look at what happened to Sky TV in the early analogue days with the Cards. Â Apparently an undecipherable code. Â What happened, someone at News Corporation (allegedly) leaked the encryption algorythm/codes out and everyone was getting Sky for free for almost 12-months until they completely re-wrote all the encryption stuff.

The more that is charged for stuff like this makes people more determinned to hack/crack the software and make it Public Domain. Â As I said I can't see how this can be copyrighted, it being hacked code already.....

I have always had this view regarding software but since all the chippers have so far actually done some mechanical work (soldering chips...) there was a premium to pay. Â Now its JUST software I can't believe they still want Â£500 for it  I bet it takes all of 5 minutes

All IMHO of course Â 

Anyway I'll shut up now but I just wanted to open peoples eyes as to this just being a copyright issue - If you download MP3's you are just as bad as me for thinking this way 8)

Andy


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## PaulS

mmm.....this as ALL very interesting.

Seems to be the ideal solution for me, car being totally standard and all that.....

New laptop and digi camera may get bumped off the list in Favour of Revo Technik :

Put me on the list 

Even more need to go to the AGM meet now


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## forgemotorsport

AHHHH Bad news TT forum EGM/AGM is the same Saturday as we are attending Autosport International at the NEC , so we cannot make that date .

We will be doing demo programmes at the NEC 9th , 10th 11th , 12th Jan if required , ( please call first so we can plan) We can also have an open day down here or arrange another meeting , We are committed to bringing the new software to you guys first.

There will be a guarantee on all software for life and all Forge- Revo hardware for 12 months.


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## jonah

ok so if i let u know inadvance that i want the trial version and attend the NEC u will program the ecu their for me? how long does the trial last for 1day? 1 week? 1 month?


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## thorney

1 roundabout


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## forgemotorsport

jonah

We can do this at the NEC , we just need to organise time and exact location ( easy to get lost in that place)

The trial last for 2( two) driving hours then changes back to stock


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## jonah

can u confirm one thing for me plz
the onboard computer logs faults and things that happen within the engine so if there was excessive power ie more than normal would these faults still be logged after u reset the ecu to normal.
think thatts right not a techie uknow
ie excessive boost ect


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## Lisa.

> The trail last for 2( two) driving hours then changes back to stock


Just long enough to get out off the NEC car park then ;D

You do realise that the NEC is literally just 20 mins from the EGM? Just think of all those keen TT owners raring to have a whizz up and down the M42 with their 2 hours before the EGM starts at lunchtime. Â

If its as good as it sounds you could do better business with us than two hours at the NEC. Just a thought. ;D

Lisa


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## David_A

Forge - 2 hours of engine time  or 2 hours from install 

What if you had the install on a wet day and wanted to switch off till the next dry day?

Can you guarantee that it can't be detected by Audi?

Dave


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## djp10tt

OK this may seem a silly question but no one else has asked or is it just me being thick :-/
What happens/would happen with Revo-Technik magic on a previously re chipped car (say AMD) with a 40 BHP power increase ???
Is it posible to reset AMD or whoever chip and program Revo way?
Can I make an appointment to see you at Autosport show on Friday? email or im please
Sorry if the questions are utter B******S but I don't know :-[


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## forgemotorsport

Lisa.

I really would love to try and get to the EGM , perhaps we can try and do something ,Russell and I will talk.

David_A
2 hours of driving time

The software is TOTALLY undetectable by any VAG software guaranteed ( but if you drive the car ........)

djp10tt
If you alreday have an upgrade we may need to remove this first, prediagnostic testing will tell us.

David_A


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## KevinST

I'm sorry but I can't believe the "100% undetectable" statements...
You're loading new software into the ECU - this software needs to be loaded into FLASH memory so that it's not erased whenever the power is removed.
The memory location that the new software is loaded into will either be unused, or it will contain existing code... actually, at least some of the new code will need to overwrite existing BOOT code so that the new finctionality is loaded.
So, if different software to the original code is loaded into FLASH memory - then anyone who has the ability to read the memory, and knows what the correct code should look like... will be able to tell that the ECU program has been changed.

To say that you don't need to inform your insurance company of the modification is a bad idea... Forge - if it's 100% undetectable as you say, will you provide financial compensation to a owner who has their insurance voided when they need it most???


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## forgemotorsport

I dont remember saying theres no need to inform your insurance company, thats personal choice


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## Emmy

Heya Forge (Russell?) 

Okay... This all does sound very interesting... but I have a few technical questions...  (here we go)

1) You say that the re-map is fully optimised for other add-ons (exhausts, intercoolers, air filters, DV's, etc), but I find this a bit odd... Firstly, if your car has NONE of the extra upgrades (totally OEM car), the re-map would, I assume, be optimised for totally stock operation. This would presumably mean less boost and retarded ignition timing. Then, say, an exhaust, intercooler, DV and filter is added - and for good measure higher RON fuel is added (Optimax at 98.4RON). How would the map be able to adjust itself on-the-fly for these extra add-ons? I guess it could advance the timing with the help of the knock sensors, but then all chips do this - its part of the Motronic functionality... But the boost pressures would remain the same... How exactly does the system 'optimise' for other add-ons (seeing as there is no way for the map to know you have a performance exhaust, intercooler, DV or air filter)?

2) You mentioned that no rolling-road time is required, altho to completely (a) optimise the chip for your car (age, fuel, condition, addons, etc, all usually make a difference), (b) ensure that the car is still running okay (air-to-fuel ratios, exhaust gas temperatures, horsepower, torque, linear operation, etc, are all measured on the rolling road), and (c) reassure that the car is actually performing at its best, RR time is usually essential... If, after the re-map, an unforeseen problem occurs (the history of an engine can be hazy!), and the car immediately starts to run lean... the driver could be 50 miles away by the time detonation destroys the pistons, combustion chambers, cylinders, valves, etc. Also, since the cost is going to be very similar to getting a 'normal' chip, can customers get a free-of-charge rolling session if he/she desires it?

3) You say the map is completely undetectable, even on close inspection of the ECU... However, if the ECU EEPROM was analysed by Audi Technical, I'm sure they can figure out that the map is not the OEM! Unless when you switch the ECU to 'stock' mode, the dongle actually re-maps the ECU back to stock mode? If this is so, does that mean the maps - new and old - are stored in the dongle? And if that was the case, just reverse engineering the dongle would be all that's needed to 'bootleg' the map, as ADB suggested?

4) On the RevoTechnik.com website, a mention is made to "This allows us to monitor 20+ inputs simultaneously in real time instead of one". What exactly is meant by this? The original Motronic ECU map takes into account all inputs also (throttle position, MAF, brakes, clutch, gear, RPM, fuel, EGT, knock, ESP, ASR, etc)... So whats the difference between the Revo map and other performance maps (as well as the OEM map)??

As far as I can tell so far, the main benefit is reduction in install time for the installer. Other benfits could be warranty work, but then as has been mentioned, this can constitute defrauding Audi - if they find out. Besides, we do have 'mod-friendly' dealers around (such as Wayside Audi who use AmD extensively). And again this only works depending on the answer to question (3) above. Looking at an engine, any competent mechanic could easily work out that excess boost or lean operation, caused the damage, and they will want to study the ECU map... Audi can be very thorough when it comes to a warranty claim of between Â£4000 and Â£10000! 

Thanks! 

Shash.


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## KevinST

Forge - appologies, I'm sure that I had read in the thread that there was no reason to tell the insurance company :-/

Hmmm - something else as well...
If, as myself and Shash believe, the change to the ECU is detectable (by reading the FLASH / EEPROM and comparing code against Audi code) then even the time limited code will be seen as a modification by Audi unless the time limited trial software completely un-installs itself back to the original code.


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## Major Audi Parts Guru

I've just had a basic explanation of how this works and all i can say is that it's the dogs danglies  and yes it is 100% undetectable ;D ;D ;D
I am very very impressed,IT IS THAT GOOD !!!!!


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## Emmy

Would still like an explanation for the rest of us 

S.


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## PaulS

mmmm.....I'm still very interested in this (Hi major BTW).....keep talking guys...

In essence then, the revo technik stores and downloads different maps direct to the standard Audi TT ECU (no mods needed) and is able to reload the original map (and checksums etc) should this be needed in the event an engine failure ...... (which would actually be defrauding Audi in such circumstances, but that's beside the point......)

In theory, I would actually be able to download such software myself using the VAG-COM/ OBD2 interface, but you guys have obviously built in protection software?

So you would have an upgrade map 'off the shelf' for a totally standard 225 TTC.....you've developed this map yourself, from........but if I had, say a Miltek on as well, you'd have a slightly different map to suit?


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## Major Audi Parts Guru

I can't really say anymore about it  it's probably best if i leave it to Forge and Revo to do the explaining.
Just makes me wish i had a 1.8T of some sort now


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## vlastan

Forge

What about the turbo boost? Won't this increase and make it easier to detect it?

Of course when you drive the car (Audi dealers always test drive the car following a service or inspection) they will realise that there is extra power available. And if you haven't told them, then they may wish to investigate further.

But again you mentioned that you will be able to revert back to normal operation by having an optional extra? What is this and how will it work then?


----------



## jonah

One last question from me 
Will the Dongel be soely for my car ie could i buy another dongel from u and plug it in.
basically asking if Audi garage got one could they plug theirs in and alter the program to check ?

The trick here is in the dongel,they were and are used to stop program piracy, basically it is a gadget with a password stored in password that allows u to gain access as long as each dongel is diferent then will be Totally blind to other detecting devices


----------



## rktec

This is all very interesting . . . Forge any answers ?

Another question to add to the barrage:

In the 'trial period' do you get the dongle as well so that you can change from stock to 'tweaked' modes as required . . . I ask because it would be handy to be able to 'use' the 2 hours to its best potential and not getting out of Edinburgh nose to tail for an hour, and can it be changed on the move? :-/

Ah, questions, questions, questions . . . bet your beginning to regret replying to this post now 

But if the Major is convinced . . . then (with inferior techy knowledge) who indeed am I . . . :-X


----------



## boabt

> This is all very interesting . . . Forge any answers ?
> 
> Another question to add to the barrage:
> 
> In the 'trial period' do you get the dongle as well so that you can change from stock to 'tweaked' modes as required . . . I ask because it would be handy to be able to 'use' the 2 hours to its best potential and not getting out of Edinburgh nose to tail for an hour, and can it be changed on the move? Â :-/
> 
> Ah, questions, questions, questions . . . bet your beginning to regret replying to this post now Â
> 
> But if the Major is convinced . . . then (with inferior techy knowledge) who indeed am I . . . Â :-X


You'll need to get the remap done at the gyle and then belt the car down the bypass. This all sounds very interesting indeed, but I think I will wait and see what happens when an impartial TT owner has it installed and makes a report to the forum.


----------



## jonah

I cant see u getting the dongel for the trial no need for it.
One thing to note!
when the program is uploaded to the ecu u are not removing the origanal Audi program,it will always be their even the trial version of the rvo tech if u use try it first.
so to put it into easy mode
you will have two programs on ur car 1st being the Audi standard program the 2nd being the Revo tech one.
the dongel allows u to switch between these but as the Rev tech one will be password protected it will be undetectable unless u have the correct dongel for that individual program.


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## rktec

hehehe Boab, . . . you coming to the Scottish Meet on the 12th Jan (see events section if so).

Jonah, I am probably missing the point, (I read what you posted a couple of times - but didn't quite understand) but in the trial - how exactly do you change from Stock to Revo then . . . or CAN you ?


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## jonah

u cant! i dont see forge giving u a dongel for nowt.
from what i can see the trial version is abit like free ware.it would be installed onto the ECU once driven for 2hrs it will automatically revert back to the origanal Audi program.
It will however remain on the ECU but will be a redundant feature of the ECU and never used again unles it is removed by forge when they install the full version.
Hope this makes sense 
do a search on dongels probably explains it better than i can as i'm not a techie


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## rktec

think I get the jist of it now Jonah ( I'd give the dongle back Forge Â  ) . . . limits what I can show the rest of them at the Stirling meet though Â  Â :-/


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## boabt

> hehehe Boab, . . . you coming to the Scottish Meet on the 12th Jan (see events section if so).


Wish I could rktec :'(, will be snowboarding in France instead ;D. I will definitely make the next one though. 

Rob


----------



## Guest

Wow, 9 pages! I need to keep an eye on things better. I have looked over the thread and will try to answer as many things as I can but I will undoubtedly miss some of them so please feel free to remind me of something if I miss it.

The best way to describe the new technology is to experience it for yourself, and you have already read that we have the trial program available for free so I highly recommend that you try it, after all what do you have to lose!

The system works like this:

Program the ECU through the diagnostic port, this requires no disassembly to your vehicle and no soldering on the ECU, actually we never even raise the bonnet! In about 7 minutes the reprogramming is complete. That's it, your chipped!

You can also choose to purchase an SPS device that will allow you to control the performance of your car. It will allow you to either change between different performance codes that we have written or make your own (within reason, all factory safety mechanisms are in place so you cannot operate the vehicle outside safe limits). We give you the ability to change the boost pressure and/or timing angle advance to your desired performance level. You can run stock boost pressures all the way up to about a 1.5 BAR depending on your model. You also have the ability to change the timing to suite the fuel you are using, from 95 RON to 98+ octane booster or race fuel.

We also have the security mode that will leave the car inop even it the thief has the keys or replaces the ECU.

And the trial program that last for 2 hours and reverts itself back to stock (yes, you can only do it once).

As for the stealthness of the product all I will say is inspectors cannot see what truly is not there. We have encrypted some code and moved portions to other memory locations (that is our patent pending technology - Resident Encrypted Variable Output, REVO). We fully expect others to attempt to reverse engineer the product and have taken the appropriate steps, they would be fools not to try and we understand, this is the latest technology and competitors will be scrambling to copy it. That is reason for all of the encryption and stealthness, not to try to defraud warranty or insurance but to protect our patent and technology.

If anyone is going to Autosports this week come by the Forge stand, I will be there answering questions and we will be giving demos of the product. If not, call us or Forge and we will be happy to arrange a demonstration or give you the trial software. Hope this helps!


----------



## paulb

Hi Mitchell.

Thanks for the clarification. How many programmes do you have up your sleeve?

Does my car with Milltek, cats and Forge Intercooler require a different programme to a standard car?

Thanks

Paul


----------



## Guest

Hi Paul,

We have only two, stock and performance. However, with the SPS3 device you have the ability to choose between 10 timing settings and 20 boost settings to accommodate your performance desires.

Your mods do not require a special program but more HP could be attained by special programming, most of which you can dial with the SPS device - but we will be doing special programs with Forge to maximise the performance while using their hardware. It will be a couple of months before they start to appear but suffice it to say the programming will be special for their hardware. We will probably start offering kits that include Forge hardware with special programming written by ourselves specifically for the kit.


----------



## paulb

Excellent. I keep my eyes open for progress from Forge then!


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## KevinST

Mitchell - thanks for your input.

Can I go back to the question of detection of the additional programming?? All others have said that your mod is undetectable - you have not - you've just said that it's not copyable (I understand how this is done and believe your statement). However you have loaded new code over Audi's original code so anyone who has the ability to read EEPROMS or FLASH memory (I could so it here at home  ) will be able to see that non-original code is loaded.

I had thought during the thread that your supplied dongle reporgrammed the ECU each time the ignition was turned on - with no dongle connected - no new SW is loaded and so the Audi code is used. But I don't believe this is the case.

Appologies for the highly techie questions - but this system of yours sounds interesting (both as a TT owner and also as a ex-embedded tools support manager).


----------



## PaulS

Hi Mitchell,

This indeed is all very interesting, and seems the ideal 1st 'upgrade' for my car. Funnily enough, I think that a very similar procedure was applied to one of my previous Renault 172's......

Just remind us all ........ the cost for a basic upgrade?

Hope to talk to you on the stand 

Paul.


----------



## Guest

an interesting read.....

do you have an provisional figues for post-performace stat's for

225 Q TT
180 Q TT
180 FWD TT <<<< which is my interest.. 

Â£499.... any TTOC discount there........ ??


----------



## t7

> Â£499.... any TTOC discount there........ ??


NuTTs hasn't posted on this thread yet  - given likely popularity it's certainly a good one for discussion at the EGM.


----------



## vlastan

What is the SPS3 device and how does it work then? Is it an extra or will it be standard?

It will be nice to have some indicative prices as well.


----------



## Emmy

Hi Mitchell!

Thanks for the response... Â But you seem to have missed out the more technical questions!! Â Also, we seem to be getting contradicting views... Â Forge says that it is COMPLETELY undetectable, but you say it is only uncrackable... Â At the end of the day, the Bosch Motronic ECU has some RAM, some ROM and a CPU - all memory locations can be probed (remotely thru the CAN-bus), and as such dealers, inspectors, and insurers can see "something" if they search for it... Â If the REVO system is truly memory resident, then does that mean if your ECU loses power, the map is lost? Â If not, then it must be EEPROM-resident, which survives power-cycles, thus can be read... Â The person reading the code may not have the decrypt algorithm (which again is a little puzzling, as the decrypt algorithm must be on the EEPROM as well for the car itself to be able to read it!), but should be able to see something has changed... Â If so, the program is then detectable.

I must apologise for us being so transfixed on the idea of whether it is detectable or not. Â The reason is that most of us would buy it primarily because we do not want to void our warranties (which is what we understand by 'undetectable'), but want some performance gains.

Also, as far as value for money is concerned, if the re-map is detectable, then with all due respect, considering the cost it makes very little difference which re-map we go for (i.e. traditional solder or CAN upload). Â And at least with traditional solder, we get the added value of rolling road testing, a/f ratio analysis, EGT analysis, and possibly driveability testing.

Finally, quoting Forge:


> The Revo Technik software has been optimized and tested to work with Forge Motorsport products so you can rest assured that when you install a replacement diverter valve, a performance exhaust or an up-rated intercooler you will see the best results possible.
> If you want to ensure total and complete compatibility between all your performance upgrades
> You need to select Forge - Revo


This makes it seem that the system is already optimised with Forge products, AND will optimise ON-THE-FLY with any new products you install. Â However, from your post, it would appear that you would need a special map specific for the upgrades. Â Does that mean we need to pay for a re-map every time we upgrade a Forge component? Â Or will we receive free software upgrades? Â I know that an SPS3 will give us the ability to alter maps for ourselves, but to be fair most users (a) wont want to mess with their maps as not all TT-owners are technical, and most importantly (b) wont want to pay the extra cost for SPS3 (another Â£292.58 including VAT - which added to the re-map means a total of Â£878.91!!)!

Here's a run down of the costs for reference (especially for you, vlastlan )...

Basic re-map: Â Â£586.33
SPS1 (allows switch between performance and stock): Â Â£175.08
SPS2 (same as SPS1, but includes security switch): Â£233.83
SPS3 (as SPS1, but includes boost/timing controls): Â£292.58
ATK1 (SPS3 + full software programming): Â£762.58

- All the above prices above include VAT at 17.5%, and are sourced from www.revotechnik.com

As far as I know, the cost of each add-on (SPS and ATK) is in addition to the basic re-map cost.

Sorry if I seem a bit skeptical and negative, but as new technology emerges, I feel a need to challenge claims made by manufacturers. Â Being very technical myself, I seek to further my knowledge of these new technologies myself - believe me, if I am convinced of the claims of this new software (including the value for money), I'd let everyone know too 

Shash.

PS - any BHP/Torque/Boost curves available for the TT yet? Would be interesting to see what gains are available from such a system!


----------



## PaulS

I think you have made some very good points there Shash  The cost does add up if you take everything into account 

In the end, you might as well 'factor' in the additional insurance costs (as of course you all would ) and then not have the worry of the detectable/non-detectable status. Then you could have the switchable map facility without any worry. Personally, I'm not convinced of it's 'non-detectable' status, not just yet anyway.

We also need to see the 'off the shelf' power gains for standard 180's, 225's etc..

Paul.


----------



## vlastan

Thanks Shash.

This product gets more and more expensive if you add some extras!!

So it doesn't offer any financial advantages over the current tuning companies in terms of costing.


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## rktec

So is it safe to say that the only advantage of the REVO system over say APR's package, (if all that is claimed is true) would be that :

for the 'customer' - it cannot be detected by Audi dealers Â 

for 'REVO Technik/agents thereof' - it takes 7 mins to fit (less installation - same price-ish really when all is said and done) Â 

Is this being too sceptical - or too untechnical (cos Im not at all electronically/software minded) :-/

Plus, you get Cruise Control if you didn't already have it from APR . . . Â 

So I can only imagine (giving the benefit of the doubt here) that Mitchell/APR have decided to explore this new technology so that it does indeed have the 'stealth' advantage, otherwise - why would they risk all the r+d for a similar product to the rest on the market ?


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## David_A

Rktec - I'm not sure you do get cruise control - unless I've missed something ???

Dave


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## rktec

http://www.apreurope.com/products/ecu_upgrade_tt.html

- yeah I know it costs extra, I was being argumentative


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## Guest

All very good questions indeed! First let me say that there are some things I will disclose and others that I will not, obviously we must protect the countless hours we have spent developing the code and routines. That being said, here we go.

Let me make absolutely clear that I do not believe that ANYTHING is uncrackable, uncopyable or unhackable (is that a word?). Given enough time and perseverance anything and everything will fall to a determined hacker. It is with this attitude that we started making the software as secure as possible without hindering its functionality. The first method of security is to make it seem totally standard in the first place. If you are in performance mode it won't take a technician to figure out the car is chipped! Just the power alone will be evidence enough that something is amiss. If you log the boost tables in chipped mode and you have dialled in 1.4 BAR the computer will read 2400 millibar, and everyone knows that is not stock. However if you put the car in stock program, plug it in to the VAS machine, and try to find the programming you will find nothing. If you have an emulator and you remove the ECU Flash memory chip and compare it to stock you will see stock code. I will not say how we do this, but don't worry I am sure it will be tried soon if not already tried.

Emmy - You can appreciate that some of what you are asking I cannot comment on, but certain items I will. You are correct is saying that the ECU has many different memory types and locations. The factory has put their code on an AMD 29F800BB EEPROM (on the late TT's). One problem that serial programming has had is that the code could not be encrypted, so tuners just decided not to try, if someone gets your code and you have spent Â£100,000 in R&D, they will put their name on it and sell it for half price. You soon will be out of business. Not a good place to be in. So we decided that we would like to use this process and find a way to encrypt the data and offer switching. As you can imagine the problems are enormous; how do you encrypt it, how do you do the switching, how do you have enough memory to store all of your routines and extra code??? Once you find an answer for all of this then how do you protect it? And no, I won't tell you the answer!

I will say that we have the functionality to â€œforce to stockâ€. So if you (or we) are worried about someone seeing the code the ability is there to make everything standard. You canâ€™t see what isnâ€™t there. If the flash memory is stock you can look all of your life and guess what you will findâ€¦stock. Sorry for being vague on this, but that is really all I can say. If someone wants a more detailed explanation come to the Forge stand on Thursday or Friday, face to face I will tell you a little more. I want everyone to understand that I am just protecting our investment, not trying to evade questions.

As for the questions about code optimised for Forge products, we have used certain Forge products with our tuning, so from that aspect yes, it has. However, what we are really proud of is what is on the horizon. Forge can build products that are second to none and no longer need to concern themselves with the products working well with stock or modified tuning. Some Forge designs are so efficient or change so much that they were once not useable because the design was outside the adaptation range of the ECU and programming. Now we are working together to allow for all out engineering on the hardware and software - that will allow us both to expand our product range and not worry about our designs not working with standard components. We will design the hardware and software together; this opens a whole new dimension to tuning. I am very excited about this, and I expect the performance levels to rise to a level once thought impossible.

Hope this helps and sorry for the long post.


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## Major Audi Parts Guru

The futures' bright,the future's Revo-Forge


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## jonah

Hi Mitchell
Thanx for taking time out to answer these questions for us! seems if what u are saying is true and i do not think for one minute u would be lieing,then you have a product to be very excited about going by the intrested shown here.

i do have one question for you though.
Will the dongel be exclusive to the car or to the program.As there would be nothing stopping Audi garages buying these dongels to use for checking the set up of the ecu or car


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## vlastan

...and of course my question:

How do you change from stock to performance? What is it required to do this.

The only problem is in the case of an accident. Before you let the car go you must change to stock mode as Audi and the insurance will find out when they test drive the car and you will be in trouble.


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## jonah

Vlastan thats what the dongel does a little switch that plugs into a serial port or whatever the TT uses


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## vlastan

So the dongel is simply a switch and nothing more?

So I guess when you get a better (SPS 3 I think it is called) that allows you to change parametres in the engine, then you will need a laptop to do this?


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## dunks3

> Hi Mitchell
> Thanx for taking time out to answer these questions for us! seems if what u are saying is true and i do not think for one minute u would be lieing,then you have a product to be very excited about going by the intrested shown here.
> 
> i do have one question for you though.
> Will the dongel be exclusive to the car or to the program.As there would be nothing stopping Audi garages buying these dongels to use for checking the set up of the ecu or car


Not sure but I could hazard a guess that this is the same as the original APR way of switching - if someone was familiar with the APR mode switching via the cruise control stalk, they could switch modes themselves in this way, from stock to chipped mode (for example) - this is why APR offered the additional security add on - ie you could lock the chip modes so no one could unlock unless they knew your security code...

So I assume since they offer a security module it will be similar...just assuming though...


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## Emmy

Mitchell - Thanks for the answers... I can understand your need to be vague on certain points for security reasons... I would love to meet you on Thursday or Friday, and I will endeavour to do my best to be there!

Thanks!

Shash.


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## Andy_O

Hi Mitchell,

As you were talking about future specific code to partner new Forge Mods my question is; if you had your car "chipped" (or is the term now blown?  ) would the new software upgrades be free at each stage as you modded your car (with Forge parts of course.) or new mods became available?


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## Emmy

I asked that too 

Shash.


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## Guest

Oh yes, I forgot! You buy the software once, for one car. Upgrades for your car are free from Revo. But if you buy a different car, we charge you again since the code is different.

The SPS3 allows for switching without a laptop, just select the desired boost or timing, plug in for a couple of seconds, and voila...done.

Vlastan - yes, what you say is true, if you are in performance mode and you had an accident you would still be in performance mode and the program could be detected, although difficult, it could be detected. Please understand, we are not trying to defraud the insurance and highly suggest people don't use the product, although they could, to keep insurance or dealers in the dark.

Jonah - Actually the SPS devices can be used to switch any car, but once the car is in stock mode the device will only work on that car.

Dunc! - Nice to see you over here! Our security is very different than the old APR stuff. It disables the ECU so the car will not run, at all. The security like the APR stuff is integrated into our stock program automatically, so once the car is in stock mode you need your special SPS device to re-initiate the performance code. BTW, APR customers will be receiving free upgrades as well!

Emmy - Sounds good! I will be looking forward to our conversation, it is people who really understand these systems that can appreciate the level of engineering that went into this, trust me, you wonâ€™t be disappointed!

I knew I would leave out some answers so keep them coming if I have missed them, 9 pages was a lot to catch up on!


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## 55JWB

Mitchell,

Whats involved/ needs to be done to upgrade an existing APR customer?

Cheers

Jason


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## Guest

good info Mitchell

although on the 'undectable' issue........
with the mightly manufacturers being aware of the tuning market for years (and no doubt reading this post..  ) my view is that if they wanted to truly block such upgrades, then they would have done so years ago....... 
but as the tuning industry is so vast .. and actually supported by manufacturers in some instances and vice versa (ABT in Germany, etc) it is IMHO / guess, in their interest to actually support your industry by keeping the current manufacturer : after-market tuner position as it is.......i.e. you are able to modify.. and they don't really try to block (?)

btw.. keep up the good work and MORE POWER FOR THE 180's PLEASE ;D


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## jonah

i agree with you there sundeep .Rover are now offering chip upgrades from build on the MG range


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## Guest

Very true, they want repeat customers and if they keep us from enjoying our cars we won't be buying another one from them.

Another problem is cost, they are out to make money and if they must spend another Â£1000 to stop us from chipping that is a ton of money they will lose. Is it worth loosing that much money to stop a few people from chipping? That is a question for the bean counters and they do take into consideration the fact that people who chip are enthusiasts and the guys who give praises to the make. In actuality it would probably be next to impossible to stop, anything that can be assembled can be disassembled if the money is there to disassemble it. If there is a demand, someone will do it, it may be dear but it will be available.

It would be foolish to say that they could not slow it down substantially; it just might not affect their bottom line for the better.


----------



## natt

I second 55JWB's question raised today, which I think has missed a reply.
I understand that APR customers get free APR upgrades but how are you related? 
Can you go from APR to Revo for free : ? (I can kinda guess this one)
And if you do want to change the ECU mode, do you have to stick a dongle in a panel or is it possible to switch between stock/performance, or created modes, using the cruise stalk? (the latter would be much easier in case of an accident or breakdown where you wanted to return your car to stock before handing it over).

Cheers


----------



## boabt

MItchell,

How do I go about buying into your company??

;D ;D ;D


----------



## forgemotorsport

Anyone else for the free trail at Autosport later this week????


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## Guest

NaTT - Again, we don't want to defraud anyone...but think of this scenario. You get into an accident and they believe your car is chipped. You use the cruise control to change back into stock mode and go about your business. What did that buy you? Manufactures/insurance know that modern chips arre invisible, if they are going to look they are going to open the ECU. If they decide to open your ECU you are busted, encryption boards kind of stick out on the ECU and they will see it. I personally think that all of the undetectibily is a bit overkill (for warranty or insurance, for protection it is necessary), as long as I have been doing this I have never personally met someone who had a problem, I have heard horror stories but never seen one myself.

Perhaps this is a good question to ask the board...has anyone out there actually had someone test for a chip? Dealers claim that a car might be chipped just to see the reaction from the owner (we did ). So that doesn't count, unless they have had someone pull the code or open the ECU. How many people have had these problems?


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## KevinST

Even if no one has ever tested for a chip... is it worth the risk?? The risk of having the insurance company refuse to cover you, the risk that you are then liable for ALL costs (not just the cost of repairing, but the cost of legal proceedings and compensation to 3rd parties).

Sorry but I still do not believe that any product is undetectable (unless it is as I said earlier - the dongle loads the new code into the ECU on each start). You have a fixed memory archetecture - you need to modify the boot code to load different code from a different location.
Yes, the Revo product may be more stelthy that a re-soldered chip (which anyone who looks into the ECU would be able to see).


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## Dogmatic6

Would be nice if the revo code switched the car back to the original setting in the event of an accident ;D

In anycase I would tell my insurance company as its not worth the risk for me anyway...


----------



## coupe-sport

i think you are worrying too much about the undetectable bit.

Look at it this way - modify the car and not tell the insurance - your being a prick.

How many dealers actually have the capability to check the ECU for software change. If as Revo say the original code is in there then VAG com is not going to tell them any different, nor is opening up the ECU to look for new soldering / piggy back boards.

Just see this as a nice convienient way to remap the ecu - same risks as before but personally i would be happy to run this code, inform my insurance and then switch back to standard for visits to the dealer.

I think some of you are worrying a bit too much - this is the best thing to happen to the tuning industry since the RS cosworth spawned the chipping industry (ie detection techniques before they became s u p e r chips)

rgds


----------



## Carlos

> Sorry but I still do not believe that any product is undetectable


Kev, is it not just a teensy bit possible that someone may have developed something new and beyond even your understanding


----------



## thorney

ROFLMAO ;D


----------



## natt

Thanks Revo_Mitchell. 
Yes my question re ease of switching was caveated so as to refer to switching in a hyperthetical situation which could lead to you being able to defraud. You can't condone that and neither would I.

I'd tell my Audi garage and my insurance if I purchase your product.

How do you change the Revo between modes? 
Is it via the cruise control?
And if it's via a dongle does this need to be left in place during driving?
Finally for those with APR how could you "migrate"?


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## David_A

James - agreed. I would definately inform my insurance company, but probably not Audi. Although I don't have direct experience a 'chip' or mod would/could be the first excuse used to avoid a warranty claim. Like I said before if the ECU went bang then I'd be in a dilema!

Dave


----------



## vlastan

If you tell your insurance and Audi...the what is the benefit of this product over the standard chipping process?

NONE

...so don't consider it then.


----------



## W7 PMC

This product does indeed look interesting. One thing i'm failing to see from this thread is the actual power & performance gains 30-70bhp is a bit of a wild statement. What set-up of TT do you need to get the full 70bhp?

As stock 225 TT's range from 216ish to 232ish in real terms (mine was 231bhp) what are the power differences you actually quote, based on.

Also with no RR, how is any customer going to know how powerful there car is after the Revo treatment? This surely is very important!! Can't imagine customers being happy just quoting that there TT is quicker but they have no idea by how much the power has increased. If they would not know, then they will have to add the cost of a RR to the package.


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## coupe-sport

> If you tell your insurance and Audi...the what is the benefit of this product over the standard chipping process?
> 
> NONE
> 
> ...so don't consider it then.


 ???

About 4 hrs less work and a damn site easier to update the code than resoldering in a new chip


----------



## Major Audi Parts Guru

> How many dealers actually have the capability to check the ECU for software change. If as Revo say the original code is in there then VAG com is not going to tell them any different, nor is opening up the ECU to look Â for new soldering / piggy back boards.
> 
> Just see this as a nice convienient way to remap the ecu - same risks as before but personally i would be happy to run this code, inform my insurance and then switch back to standard for visits to the dealer.
> 
> I think some of you are worrying a bit too much - this is the best thing to happen to the tuning industry since the RS cosworth spawned the chipping industry (ie detection techniques before they became s u p e r chips)
> 
> rgds


I totally agree


----------



## W7 PMC

I was once told that no Audi Technician in this country is qualified to even work on an ECU, so therefore all remaps are pretty much non-detectable by mere sight. If an ECU its faulty, then the whole thing is replaced.


----------



## Throbber

Now for a different question.

On the Revotechnik website, it says that APR have rebranded to Revotechnik. So have Forge and APR been working together to develop the REVO software or are they both ditributors for the product?

Just curious.

Dave


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## KevinST

> Kev, is it not just a teensy bit possible that someone may have developed something new and beyond even your understanding Â


LOL ;D If someone has a software product that can make the existing memory hold 2 lots of code, but only the original code is visable... without changing the memory... WOW !!


----------



## forgemotorsport

Yes we have been working together

We have worked with Revo supplying Forge hardware for thier new technology.

We are tuning solution partners, working to bring the best of all worlds


----------



## Major Audi Parts Guru

> I was once told that no Audi Technician in this country is qualified to even work on an ECU, so therefore all remaps are pretty much non-detectable by mere sight. If an ECU its faulty, then the whole thing is replaced.


How true this is


----------



## Monique

:'( :'( :'(

Bl**** H***! If I had known this product was in the pipeline, I would not have mine remapped.

If this is close to the suggested specs, then all you future takers are in for a treat.

Good luck all


----------



## jonah

spoke to Russel today at forge and he has convinced me  going to NEC on friday and meeting up to descuss this further and will have the trial program loaded if i like and performance is as i wish will have the full upgrade on the same day.
does anyone know of a rolling road close to the NEC as i would like to get it checked for peice of mind while running the trial Â version


----------



## Guest

Forge - any chance you will be supporting the A4 Cabriolet with this?


----------



## Emmy

Guys..

It's true that for general Audi warranty claims (broken DV, broken coil-pack, broken MAF, broken windows, broken heaters, etc) an Audi garage will NOT be able to detect the chip, and as such will not void your warranty. Of course, for those sorts of 'known failures' or 'unrelated failures' they dont really care either. My car is seriously modified - and it's all visible - but when my coil-pack failed (an engine component) they changed it, then complemented me on the modifications!

However. If the entire engine was to 'blow up' (a Â£4000+ repair job on a TT) or perhaps the turbocharger (Â£1500+), you can be sure that Audi WILL want to analyse the ECU. If no more reason than to figure out why this happened (as the engines/chargers are very robust units and rarely fail). The ECU controls virtually everything - including fuel delivery and boost pressure - so analysing the map and datalog should tell all...

Maybe we're all getting confused a bit here....

Mitchell - When you say that the REVO system is undetectable, do you mean when in STOCK mode ONLY? Or is it also undetectable in performance mode ALSO? If the former is the case, then the system only becomes undetectable if you purchase the Â£149+VAT dongle which allows switching. My previous questions have all been with respect to performance mode - not stock mode. However, if it does become undetectable in stock mode, then that means the dongle must contain the stock and performance maps, and re-flashes the ECU on the fly. I can understand if you dont want to reveal this in a public forum tho! However, if you do need to purchase the dongle to make it 'invisible', then this I think should be made clear to any buyers (as almost Â£200 can be a considerable cost!)...

Thanks!

Shash.


----------



## jonah

Emmy spoke with them today and from my understtanding when in performance mode it would be detectable only when in stock mode it is undetectable so u would have to buy the dongel to switch from one to the other.
being in performance mode anyway just driving the car would tell them its moded.
Also a waranty applies as with other rechip alternatives
Hopefully if i'm happy with it people will beable to see this at the AGM on Saturday ;D


----------



## scoTTy

However clever the technology is, surely it only matters that the program in stock mode is stealthy (if you need stealth).
The reason for the above statement is that any mode other than stock should be detectable via the right hand pedal i.e. power difference. If it's not detectable then it's not worth having.
Just my thought on this :-/

Mitchell,
I have a 4 program APR chip at the moment. How would the free up grade work?
Do you put in a fresh ECU or remove your chip from the current ECU and then use the new method?
If I don't upgrade what sort of support would I get from APR?
Does APR Europe still exist?
Do I need to change over if I ever want anymore upgrades?
Will free upgrades still be available with the Revo system?

Sorry for all the questions. Depending on the answers I may send you some more cookies


----------



## Major Audi Parts Guru

> However. Â If the entire engine was to 'blow up' (a Â£4000+ repair job on a TT) or perhaps the turbocharger (Â£1500+), you can be sure that Audi WILL want to analyse the ECU. Â If no more reason than to figure out why this happened (as the engines/chargers are very robust units and rarely fail). Â The ECU controls virtually everything - including fuel delivery and boost pressure - so analysing the map and datalog should tell all...


Emmy
Audi UK does not have the facility to analyse ECU code,they wouldn't know what to look for


----------



## Guest

Yes, that is correct...sorry for the confusion. It works like this, if you are in performance mode and you plug into a diagnostic machine nothing special will happen, all scans will appear to be normal, 99.99% of the time this is what dealers do when they diagnose your car. HOWEVER, if they drive the car and log boost pressure they will know the car is modified, that is the case not only with ours, but every chip on the market, nothing new here!

So yes, you must have the ability to put the car in stock mode to make it invisible, and the SPS1 device is Â£149 to allow this. The SPS3 device will do it also but has the ability to change boost and timing levels to your specific desire, it costs Â£249. Sorry for the confusion, better to get it all out now than later so thanks for bringing that to my attention!


----------



## jonah

Mitchell u have IM


----------



## Guest

> Mitchell,
> I have a 4 program APR chip at the moment. How would the free up grade work?
> Do you put in a fresh ECU or remove your chip from the current ECU and then use the new method?
> If I don't upgrade what sort of support would I get from APR?
> Does APR Europe still exist?
> Do I need to change over if I ever want anymore upgrades?
> Will free upgrades still be available with the Revo system?
> 
> Sorry for all the questions. Depending on the answers I may send you some more cookies Â


For all of you who purchased chips from us you are still our customers and we will continue to support you. We cannot burn APR software but will diagnose issues or other problems you may encounter and help you solve them. If APR USA is required for service we will gladly assist in any warranty issues.

If APR releases any more of their upgrades you would need to contact them directly. That is one reason why we are offering to switch you to Revo for free, so we can continue to offer upgrades and service in your time zone. And thanks for the cookies, we were like vultures down to the last crumb!


----------



## andygo

Don't worry about Audi garages sussing your upgrade.
They can't fix windows dropping, clutch pedals sticking, pulling to the left etc. so plead ignorance.

Why not, they do it to us all the time.

If they really moan about the ECU being modded, just tell 'em you were trying to stop your windows dropping by tweaking the ECU.

They probably don't know where the ECU is anyway!


----------



## Carlos

Wow 15 pages and counting.

How refreshing to see a car-related thread get so many replies.

Not a provocative bird or talk about "up the botty" in sight.

Downhill definitely.


----------



## vlastan

> Wow 15 pages and counting.
> 
> How refreshing to see a car-related thread get so many replies.
> 
> Not a provocative bird or talk about "up the botty" in sight.
> 
> Downhill definitely.


As you requested...up yours!! ;D


----------



## vlastan

> ???
> 
> About 4 hrs less work and a damn site easier to update the code than resoldering in a new chip


James..you misunderstood my posting.

I was referring to the benefits to the consumer of course. For so much money you get now rolling test before and after to show you what has been done. This is why is only a few minutes jobs. Most likely you would like to do the rolling test to find for yourself the performance benefits and they you will have to pay more.

It only makes the installer's life easier and quicker.


----------



## vlastan

Mitchell,

What size is the dongle? Do you have a picture to post for us here please?

Thanks


----------



## Guest

> Mitchell,
> 
> What size is the dongle? Do you have a picture to post for us here please?
> 
> Thanks


wow....and I thought the americans were forward ;D


----------



## coupe-sport

Vlastan - ok i see what you are getting at [smiley=stupid.gif]

I'm sure though as they are getting plenty of agents to do this, before and after rolling road checks could be included as part of a package by agents who have dyno facilities ?


----------



## natt

hoTTub, PLEASE. Some of us have colleagues looking over our shoulders. Tone down the Animated Giffs!!!

PS. I'm not a prude. ;D


----------



## W7 PMC

hoTTub:

Kind of agree that the Gif is a little in-appropriate for this forum, but who is she? & where can i find her?     ;D ;D ;D


----------



## Major Audi Parts Guru

I can see some of the better known tuning companies selling fewer of their own chips and more dyno time instead


----------



## Guest

> I'm sure though as they are getting plenty of agents to do this, before and after rolling road checks could be included as part of a package by agents who have dyno facilities ?


I spoke to Russel at Forge yesterday and also asked about the rolling road facilities (to check the power output before and after in support of my pub boast )

He advised that it could of course be done if the facilities were available. Not sure about the cost of this mind you.


----------



## thorney

Awww no fair, I missed the rude gif. :'(

hoTTub - funniest first post I've seen for a long while ;D


----------



## natt

Thanks HoTTub.
(Good job I saved that little beauty before you took it off)


----------



## vlastan

NaTT,

Can you please mail it to me to me!! I am curious to see this beauty too.

Thanks


----------



## djp10tt

> on Jan 6th, 2003, 2:59pm, W7 PMC wrote:I was once told that no Audi Technician in this country is qualified to even work on an ECU, so therefore all remaps are pretty much non-detectable by mere sight. If an ECU its faulty, then the whole thing is replaced.
> 
> How true this is


Except for the fact that even the meerest apprentice technician can see that a sealed ECU has been "broken" open giving the game away instantly. Therefore telling the technician [smiley=huh2.gif] that your cars fault must be down to the rechipped ECU with a replacement cost inc fitting and loan car hire of Â£2,500
This happened to a friend of mine recently (Audi A4)
Actual fault 2 simple relay failures replaced at a more understanding dealer and under warranty.
Moral of this story
Any performance improvements which are not visibily apparent, especially to ECU must be worth very serious consideration.
I guess if your car has already been chipped (ECU opened) reverting back to a standard ECU by original chip supplier, then going the Revo route may not be a good idea, as Audi will still be able to see a previously opened ECU and put any possible problems down to the ECU and a still invalid warranty. [smiley=rifle.gif] and it is not possible to apply Revo to a previously chipped car


> If your car has been chipped by another company it is highly likely that an encryption board has been installed or the pin that enables writing to the memory chip removed.
> The encryption boards used by tuners scramble the addresses of the memory when writing to the EPROM.
> This being the case it would be necessary to convert the ECU back to standard (ie install an original spec EPROM and software) before the Revo software is installed via the diagnostic port. You would then have a standard ECU as far as all are concerned.
> It is not possible to install the Revo software and have the AmD software installed at the same time.


This then may lead to further problems


> If we need to convert the ECU back to standard for you. the work would need to be done at our premises in Gloucester. It may take 2-3 hours, there would be an additional cost of Â£50 and we may decline the conversion back to standard after inspecting the ECU. This may sound a bit harsh, but the ECU's are not designed to have the EPROMS frequently changed and if they have been poorly installed or as we have seen in some cases, glued to the circuit board, we may not wish to run the risk of damaging the ECU.


Food for thought [smiley=rolleyes5.gif]


----------



## scoTTy

*[off topic]*
HoTTub's dodgy gif was not removed by him. I found the gif not in keeping with the forum and potentially problematic for myself and other users. Also it was a large file that was outside the forum guidelines.

I asked the forum admin to review it and take what actions they thought necessary.

If HoTTUb doesn't like it then, in a word, tough. I think for a first time poster it showed a total lack of consideration for other members of this forum.
If you're gonna flame me, please do it in the flame room and so we can get this good thread back on topic. Cheers.
*[/off topic]*


----------



## Carlos

Well I'm at home today and I'd like to see it! ;D

Not on the main forum though. Can someone post it on the flame room?


----------



## Major Audi Parts Guru

> Except for the fact that even the meerest apprentice technician can see that a sealed ECU has been "broken" open giving the game away instantly. Therefore telling the technician that your cars fault must be down to the rechipped ECU with a replacement cost inc fitting and loan car hire of Â£2,500


The vast majority of apprentices and most technicians for that matter wouldn't know what to look for,trust me i know


----------



## vlastan

> *[off topic]*
> HoTTub's dodgy gif was not removed by him. I found the gif not in keeping with the forum and potentially problematic for myself and other users. Also it was a large file that was outside the forum guidelines.
> 
> I asked the forum admin to review it and take what actions they thought necessary.
> 
> If HoTTUb doesn't like it then, in a word, tough. I think for a first time poster it showed a total lack of consideration for other members of this forum.
> If you're gonna flame me, please do it in the flame room and so we can get this good thread back on topic. Cheers.
> *[/off topic]*


Scotty is a secret police agent working under the arm of KevinST and the secret police of the TTOC!! ;D ;D
[smiley=stop.gif]


----------



## KevinST

Reminder - this is a thread about the Revo chip product. Let's not get off subject please.


----------



## vlastan

I think we exhausted all the Revo questions as nobody is asking any new ones!

So Kevin...can you please email me the link to the offending gif?

Ta!


----------



## David_A

Just had a thought - and I'm sure no one here would do this but . . .

Suppose you had a stealth chip installed ie no visible signs, and you were selling your car privately. If some took it out for a test drive all others would appear mysteriously slow!! You could then lie and say no mate it hasn't been chipped - look the ECU it hasn't been opened . . .

But no one here would do that would they.

In all seriousness though I wouldn't - I'd either sell it as chipped or put it back into stock mode and sell it as unchipped (which I know isn't completely true)

Dave


----------



## thorney

Whole new kettle of fich there 

Waht if you sell your car as 'unchipped' when it is and the subsequently crash?

Ooooh the social implications could be mind boggling 

It certainly seems to be the logical progress for mods and I would assume a lot of the tuners will follow suit, however Revo are to be congratulated for bringing it out first. ;D


----------



## jampott

> Reminder - this is a thread about the Revo chip product. Let's not get off subject please.


Cheers Kev - great public service! Will you be appearing on ALL threads after a few posts to remind people of the discussion topic? Could be an excellent way of increasing your post count.

Actually you could probably automate something...


----------



## coupe-sport

come on guys - best thread on here for ages ...


----------



## nutts

I still can't see the benefit of going Revo over a traditional remap.............

Take for example Jabba....... for c Â£500 a remap, a variable boost control & 2 rolling road session. And for more money you get Revo...... does it give any more benefit to the TT? Yes it's quicker to install, but so what? No RR in with the price. Does it make my TT go any quicker than any of the other remaps? Probably not. Cool technology and I am impressed... but impressed enough to outlay more cash than say I would at Jabba? mmmmm


----------



## thorney

How does Jabba offer a variable remap?

The two benefits (as I can see it) for the Revo one are:

1. No hacking about with the ECU.
2. Dongle allowing uprated/standard tune.

How does jabba do it?


----------



## nutts

Jabba does the "old fashioned" remapping, i.e. re-solder chip after upgrading various control parameters.

And they throw in an on road tuning session and 2 x rolling roads sessions. That is Â£425 all in. They then offer a variable boost control for about Â£100 or so, if you want it.


----------



## vlastan

This is the point I was making before!!

The Revo advantage is only there if you want to keep things secret from Audi and insurance...if you don't a standard chipping process such as the one Nutts mentioned is cheaper and adds better value.


----------



## vlastan

After all who cares how the technology works? It is the outcome that counts with more power and torque.


----------



## thorney

So the choice would be:

Revo.
SW, no rolling road, switchable between programs, ECU unopened.

Jabba.
Chip, RR, boost control (how and what do they offer for this), ECU opened.

Both for Â£600-650.


----------



## natt

Vlastan I've e-mailed it to you! Sorry couldn't upload it anywhere appropriate to post a link on the flame room.

PS (so as to remain on topic)... Not all of the questions have been answered. I think the chaps at Forge / Revo are busy today and not posting.


----------



## nutts

> So the choice would be:
> 
> Revo.
> SW, no rolling road, switchable between programs, ECU unopened.
> 
> Jabba.
> Chip, RR, boost control (how and what do they offer for this), ECU opened.
> 
> Both for Â£600-650.


Well nearer Â£500 for Jabba.... and nearer Â£700 for Revo with vat. ???


----------



## vlastan

The choice is more like across these lines:

You keep it secret, then Revo.

You don't keep it secret...Jabba!!


----------



## thorney

Now now NuTTs you're starting to sound like a Jabba advert 

And Vlastan, I'd be worried about the technology as with a remap (via chip or software) you could in theory blow your engine to pieces.


----------



## nutts

> Now now NuTTs you're starting to sound like a Jabba advert
> 
> And Vlastan, I'd be worried about the technology as with a remap (via chip or software) you could in theory blow your engine to pieces.


Having been to AMD and Jabba I would recommend having work done at either. I've spoken and met both Scott and Micheal and like what they both had to say. They are both enthusiastic and knowledgeable guys. Anywhere else I wouldn't know about. Between Jabba and AMD... given what they both deliver (great remaps), Jabba would win on cost and added benefit.

That's all. I've not had a remap yet. ;D


----------



## forgemotorsport

NuTTs

pop along for the free trail . no obligations


----------



## nutts

If you could make it to the meeting in Coventry this Saturday I think you'd have a queue...... and I'd be in it. ;D


----------



## scoTTy

I'd have thought that the Revo could be safer on the install and for longevity as no physical changes are made. At the same time I have the soldered in APR chip and don't expect it to fall out so maybe there's something there maybe not.

Revo are going to be the only company that can come to your home or much more likely (I would guess) to car meets and can chip you there and then. I guess the others could do this by bringing along pre-chipped ECU's but this wouldn't be that easy with all the various ones around.

I'm not sure whether to "upgrade" or not.
The +ves seem to be : I carry on getting the latest developments for free.
The -ves seem to be : I can't change programs whilst sitting at the traffic lights and I wouldn't have such a big choice. (Then again - I've never used the valet mode - apart from showing people it can do it and I haven't put it into 97RON program since the 98RON one arrived).

Oh the touch decisions on whether to go for a free upgrade or not. [smiley=dizzy2.gif] Â : I think the fact that this is even an option for me shows the sort of after sales support you do get from APR. Â [smiley=thumbsup.gif]


----------



## ade

although this re-map may be undetectable?

I could not sleep at night not informing the insurance company( incuured cost in the event of an accident) as described earlier.

Couldn't care less about Audi, I'm out of warranty any how.

So you guys who have had re-maps/chips what kind of percentage increase have you had in premimums with your insurance company, i'm with Tesco unsure of their views on mods?

cheers

ade


----------



## UK225

Just my chip was Â£200 premium allowing for an increase in power by up to 25%.

I had 5 1\2 months left to go on policy Â  I insure with Admiral.

Forgot to add Tesco are apparentley fine with mods.


----------



## nm_225

I've checked with Tesco - as long as power uppage is under 20% the premium increase is about 10%


----------



## jonah

I am having mine done at the NEC on friday and mitchell is loneing me a dongel ;D so i can show people at the AGM how the system works


----------



## nutts

So Jonah had EGM bragging rights....... ;D and just for that you have to sit at the back of the class ;D ;D


----------



## jonah

:-/ :'(


----------



## Wak

> although this re-map may be undetectable?
> 
> I could not sleep at night not informing the insurance company( incuured cost in the event of an accident) as described earlier.
> 
> Couldn't care less about Audi, I'm out of warranty any how.
> 
> So you guys who have had re-maps/chips what kind of percentage increase have you had in premimums with your insurance company, i'm with Tesco unsure of their views on mods?
> 
> cheers
> 
> ade


They could probably program the software to delete itself in the event of airbag deployment! 
 ;D


----------



## Emmy

> They could probably program the software to delete itself in the event of airbag deployment!
> ;D


LOL! Well... that should be easy enough 

Or... you could just keep a spare ECU, and swap it after the accident - very quickly  This would work for both soldered and REVO'd 

Shash.

PS - Only joking - I would never condone this sort of behaviour.


----------



## delian

Revo or forge are you going to sell software to foreign customers? 
Thanx in advance


----------



## forgemotorsport

Bothe companies will be offering the software to overseas customers , through resellers.

Forge will try to arrange group installs to suit customers needs .


----------



## natt

Are we going to be shown BHP / torque curves soon?

As I understand it, if you'd gone for an APR chip (which you can't any more, is that right?) you did it on the basis of a BHP curve (which is still on the APR site) or driving someone elses.

You would have been given in this a farely accurate indication/quote of typical after change max BHP for a standard 225 and how that was delivered through the rev range.

From what I've read so far ScoTTy reckons that it'll be similar to APR i.e. approx 260-270bhp and Forge have stated 30-70 BHP increase depending on your car.
So what can you expect for an otherwise unchanged 225?
Important because at one end it's not as much as other companies and at the other it would be a 31% increase and cause a few insurance banding hassles.


----------



## coupe-sport

i think the 30-70 BHP may have been a generalisation over the VAG models (the 70 gain on the S4 / RS4 ??) ... most of the stage 1 conversions for the TT 225 come out between 260-270BHP. At most a 20% increase.

rgds


----------



## natt

wouldn't you want to see readouts of the results in terms of torqe to revs and BHP to revs, on a similar car to yours, before purchasing?
It just feels a bit blind at the moment, as if the method of application is the important bit not the results of the change....


----------



## coupe-sport

I would - but basically its APR code under another name ( forge ??) , so i'd expect the same results as before - which were extremely good.


----------



## emvisi

Here's one scenario where the Revo Technik remap could potentially offer something over the traditional component-replacement method.

Let's say you sell your chipped TT (one with a replacement memory chip or ECU) and purchase a new, unmodified one. The likelihood is that you'll want to get that modded, too. You _could_ strip the components off the old car and keep them for the new one, but it's a palaver. The upshot is that you'll probably end up shelling out for a fresh remap.

However, in addition to their current single-shot product, Revo could offer a licence that would allow you to migrate the remap when you change your car -- limited by time or the number of times you can migrate, for example.

In order for this to work for Revo they'd need to be able to ensure that the old car is back to its stock configuration so that someone's not benefitting for free.  However, judging by the protection that's apparently built in to their current product, that shouldn't be beyond their capabilities. 

You could even have a licence that allows you to have two modded cars, but only one of which has the remap active at any one time. BTW, I don't know why I'd do that, but _someone_ might find it useful. ;D

While this is all technically possible using component changes, it's *considerably* less practical!


----------



## Guest

Who's orgainsing the GROUP BUY - then.

This REVO stuff sounds ace, what discount can the forum get. This is a serious question.

Apologies if this has already been mentioned.

Plus I also wanted to keep the thread moving.


----------



## Guest

I agree with Joec. This is the first mod that I would be OK with because of its undetectable presence from the Audi dealers. However at Â£760 (including the dongel and VAT) it is a bit expensive, particularly as it comes without any RR sessions. It looks very like a market and not a cost-plus rate to me (fair enough mind you).

A group buy discount would surely attract a significant number of TTOC members - should we not start a thread? Perhaps it should be considered at the EGM next week?


----------



## nutts

I've asked about a TTOC discount and the answer was NO. But if enough people want a group buy and will ONLY buy if the price is discounted......  ;D Consumer power RULES : ;D


----------



## UK225

Do Revo pay for advertising on this site ?

I know Forge have there banner ad, but every other time a manufacturer\distributer makes a post moderators point him to Jae for advertising correctly & not in the main forum.

Revo appear to be getting lots of free advertisement.

For this alone they should at least offer a bit of discount for a GB IMHO.


----------



## nutts

Good Point!!


----------



## thorney

I think you'll find thats pretty much how forums work. As long as blatant advertising is stopped (and it is) an open conversation about a product is fair enough. To try to legislate or profit from it brings up all kinds of issues of independance and even freedom to post.

The converse also works; look at the supachip issue, that lead to the very word getting banned through threat of legal action.

Revo's pricing is based upon:

1. They're the only one doing it (or at least actively marketing the product)
2. To cover the R&D costs of developing it.
3. What the market will bear. If we're all prepared to pay Â£600 on an RR backed chip then charge a premium for the level of detectability of the product.

If people think its too expensive then don't buy it but don't try to use open forums as some kind of lever for financial gain.


----------



## Guest

Yea......... ! that's an extra discount for UK225..... Â 

(although no sign of the moderators moving thre post be in the "for Sale" section..... Â  ) Â   Â  ;D ;D

anyway.. I prefer McCain's Microchips.... totally undectable to a dealer (although a slightly after smell could give it away ).. and well within all of our price ranges.... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


----------



## thorney

PS. I do however agree that forums such as these are more valuable and generate more business for Revo/AMD/MTM than they give credit for. But remember, only post something positive/negative based on your own experience, not for some implied or arranged financial gain - thats unfair to everyone.


----------



## gcp

> I've asked about a TTOC discount and the answer was NO. But if enough people want a group buy and will ONLY buy if the price is discounted......  ;D Consumer power RULES : ;D


Don't Forge offer TTOC discount ?


----------



## pgtt

I think its 10% discount for TTOC members. anyone?


----------



## KevinST

<off topic quickly>
My personal attitude towards using the forum for advertising (Jae's may be different though)...
If a company who doesn't pay any advertising fees to the forum started a thread saying "have you seen our great new product..." then I would do something about it.
However, in this case, the conversation was started by a forum member and Revo came along to help answer questions. I don't think any of us would want to stop Revo (or Wax Wizard for example) answering our questions because they don't currently advertise with the forum.
</off topic quickly>


----------



## UK225

Thorney

I am not even interested in fitting the product to my own TT as I am more than happy with my AmD chip, so I am not looking for personal finacial gain (even if I could spell it ;D) I am just expressing how I see \feel about this thread.

And if my comments, that were purely to try & get a better deal for others dont agree with your views, I am sorry but tough luck, I am telling it how I see it is that is all.


----------



## thorney

> And if my comments, that were purely to try & get a better deal for others dont agree with your views, I am sorry but tough luck, I am telling it how I see it is that is all.


I didn't say a discount for GB wasn't warranted I was just saying that legislating people posts on a forum would be difficult. I was also suggesting that anyone who posted positive comment on any product for some kind of financial gain rather than factual reporting was wrong - I don't see how this disagrees with what you said at all ???

If you note my second post about the relative value of forum posts you'll see I'm agreeing again.

Chill m8, I wasn't having a go, and even if i was then you're entitled to your opinion saying 'tough' is a bit ott.


----------



## UK225

> I was also suggesting that anyone who posted positive comment on any product for some kind of financial gain rather than factual reporting was wrong


Whos done this then ?



> Chill m8, I wasn't having a go, and even if i was then you're entitled to your opinion saying 'tough' is a bit ott.


Sorry if I have offended :-[


> If people think its too expensive then don't buy it but don't try to use open forums as some kind of lever for financial gain. .


Why not ? Surely that is what GBs are all about, people band together and then try & beat down peoples prices, be it playing people of against one another or whatever.

Surely the most important thing is the members get the best deal possible ???


----------



## thorney

Lol, cross purposes or what 

I'm not suggesting anyone is playing unfairly, just suggesting that people shouldn't start.

As far as GB's etc and getting better prices for eveyone then I'm completely with you mate  My point was that people shouldn't try to get THEMSELVES a discount in return for positive posting, discount for everyone is much better ;D


----------



## UK225

Ahh I see now Â 

I think Â :-/

;D ;D ;D

P.S sorry everyone for taking thread of topic slightly.


----------



## Steve_Mc

Back on topic - what form does the dongle take? If it's not the APR cruise control stalk method, what is it? A device you need to plug in, throw a switch and then unplug again?

Dumb Steve


----------



## thorney

> Back on topic - what form does the dongle take? If it's not the APR cruise control stalk method, what is it? A device you need to plug in, throw a switch and then unplug again?
> 
> Dumb Steve


Yep. Arise, not so dumb Steve. ;D


----------



## Major Audi Parts Guru

> My personal attitude towards using the forum for advertising (Jae's may be different though)...
> If a company who doesn't pay any advertising fees to the forum started a thread saying "have you seen our great new product..." then I would do something about it.
> However, in this case, the conversation was started by a forum member and Revo came along to help answer questions. I don't think any of us would want to stop Revo (or Wax Wizard for example) answering our questions because they don't currently advertise with the forum.


I agree


----------



## Major Audi Parts Guru

> My personal attitude towards using the forum for advertising (Jae's may be different though)...
> If a company who doesn't pay any advertising fees to the forum started a thread saying "have you seen our great new product..." then I would do something about it.
> However, in this case, the conversation was started by a forum member and Revo came along to help answer questions. I don't think any of us would want to stop Revo (or Wax Wizard for example) answering our questions because they don't currently advertise with the forum.


I agree


----------



## Major Audi Parts Guru

> However, in addition to their current single-shot product, Revo could offer a licence that would allow you to migrate the remap when you change your car -- limited by time or the number of times you can migrate, for example.


This would only work if the ECU code on your new car is the same as the ECU code on your old car.Bear in mind that there is approximately 20 different ECU part numbers for the Audi TT


----------



## b3ves

> I agree Â


Twice, in fact 

Are you a stakeholder in REVO?

BTW it looks really exciting and I'd be keen to try it on my (unchipped) TTC. I'll be watching for user feedback with interest...


----------



## Major Audi Parts Guru

> Are you a stakeholder in REVO?


Who me ? ;D ;D ;D


----------



## jonah

> Do Revo pay for advertising on this site ?


I always thought that this was a place to descuss products and alike.We should thank REVO for venturing into this place to answer our questions and keep us upto date with this thread else who knows where it would of gone.
This has been one of the most constructive threads for along time and very informative.

As for discount like Nutts said there's force in numbers and i'm sure if u got 20 people all to be inone place something might be available only good bussiness to me :-/

And yes i am having this installed onto my car on friday and will report back.
some may say wait but if what they say is true then there's nothing to worry about .
On the other hand if its not what they say then i have a bloody good solicitor Â 8) and a man called Ron whose a dab hand with a baseball bat 8) ;D


----------



## jonah

Sorry cant report back as i never had it installed :'(
NOT Russels fault though,bloody security at NEC wouldnt asallow them to do it.so Russel will be installing it at my Home in the near future.Does look a good product though Shash will beable to fill you in better than myself


----------



## Guest

Anyone have any first hand impressions? I'm across the pond - yes, feel free to laugh, an European exlie here. Anxiously awaiting power gain reports in some form.


----------



## Emmy

Hey all...

After speaking to Mitchell for quite a while at the NEC, I have to admit I am impressed with the technological development of the system... Unfortunately, I cant say all that much (about the system architecture), but it is very close to undetectable... Of course, as with anything, if someone was determined enough (and had enough time), it would be found - but the VAG test tools will not find it... Extensive tests would have to be conducted, and VAG tend not to do this (cost and time). Not to mention that dealers make a lot of money out of warranty work, so I dont think they wanna search too hard... 

As for performance, graphs should be released soon, but expect peak power to be between 265-270BHP-ish. Remember tho, peak power isnt the best figure to take - the response curve is a much better way to judge a car... and also by the feel!

The control 'dongles' are very easy to use. Simply turn a knob on the dongle to the desired setting, plug the dongle into the diagnostic port (under the steering wheel, near the bonnet release), and wait for the beep. Then just remove the device. Simple.

I guess the only reservation I'd have is the lack of rolling road (in particular the air/fuel ratio check), but other than that, it's an excellent product. I will reserve judgment on the performance (versus other maps) until I see either the maps or a mapped car in person! 

Finally, since they couldnt make our EGM meet, the guys would be willing to attend one of our next big meets... so maybe that'd be an opportunity for some people to try it out. Perhaps we should organise a rolling road meet at some point (could compare a few different re-maps back-to-back!)...

Shash.


----------



## forgemotorsport

First of all please let me appologise for not being able to install the demos we had wished for at the NEC. We are now playing catchup and I will be contacting all those who left their details.
I have proposed that Forge host an open day for the TT forum members in a similar manor to the one I organised at AmD a while back so that you can come along and have a look at out engineering works and try the Revo software. Alternatively if Gloucester is a little out of the way, I can arrange a Sunday (with a good pub) and we can install the demo software over a pint, at the end of January at a more convenient location.
For those that questioned the the use of the Forum site by Forge to bring you news of this product, can I say that it has always been understood that paid banner advertisers (this applies to Forge) are allowed to post product and contact details on the forum subject to them not constituting an annoyance and meeting our webmasters (Jae) approval. 
Enjoy your TT's - Russell


----------



## Silversea

Hi Russell,
Any word on the completion of the AE files from Revo ???

Thanks !


----------



## nutts

Russell

Is this Saturday too early? A good few owners will be at the Howard organised Go-Karting at Whiltonmill near Milton Keynes?


----------



## Major Audi Parts Guru

> Alternatively if Gloucester is a little out of the way, I can arrange a Sunday (with a good pub) and we can install the demo software over a pint, at the end of January at a more convenient location.
> Enjoy your TT's - Russell


Thanks for the post Russell
If there is enough interest from the forum then i would be more than happy to arrange another Beaconsfield meet at The Royal Standard pub in order for you to demonstrate the Forge-Revo software,maybe sometime in Febuary 
If anyone is interested in this,then could they please post below so that i can get some sort of idea in terms of numbers and make the necessary arrangements.
The Royal Standard Of Beaconsfield is one of the oldest pubs in the country and it has ample parking with excellent food and drink (for those that haven't been before) ;D


----------



## forgemotorsport

This Saturday is out I am afraid.

I have been told that the AE code will be sorted next week

Thanks for the offer Paul I am sure we can do something with you.

I have also looked at a pub at Castle Donnington where forum members have met before, for those that live Notts, Derbys, Leics or a little further North.
I will give the landlord a call and come back to you.


----------



## Silversea

Hi Russell,

Thank You for the information  
I look forward to the release!! 
Any information on the power and torque figures that is to be expected. [smiley=thumbsup.gif]


----------



## coupe-sport

Emmy (or anyone) - any pictures of the Revo Dongle (and i dont even need to open the bonnet on the golf 

rgds


----------



## jgoodman00

> Sorry but I still do not believe that any product is undetectable (unless it is as I said earlier - the dongle loads the new code into the ECU on each start). You have a fixed memory archetecture - you need to modify the boot code to load different code from a different location.


I am with Kev on this one. Because it sounds so good, you would expect a huge uptake on the product. It will not take manufacturers long to realise what is happening, & they will learn where specifically to look in order to spot the offending code. I dare say they will be able to modify their own diagnostic tools to check specific memory addresses in search of changes, so that the engineer needs little knowledge of the ECU architecture...

I imagine it will remain undetectable for the time being though


----------



## Silversea

> I am with Kev on this one. Because it sounds so good, you would expect a huge uptake on the product. It will not take manufacturers long to realise what is happening, & they will learn where specifically to look in order to spot the offending code. I dare say they will be able to modify their own diagnostic tools to check specific memory addresses in search of changes, so that the engineer needs little knowledge of the ECU architecture...
> 
> I imagine it will remain undetectable for the time being though


I teach Vw Group apprentice technicians and believe me....in the biggest majority of cases they would not know what to look for and also it would be very unlikely that they would be interested. As far as the dealerships are concerned it's a case of get it out the door as quickly as is possible. It would seem that the timeserved Technicians would not be any better than the apprentices in spotting any changed or unusual data other than a logged fault code.


----------



## Major Audi Parts Guru

> I teach Vw Group apprentice technicians and believe me....in the biggest majority of cases they would not know what to look for and also it would be very unlikely that they would be interested. Â As far as the dealerships are concerned it's a case of get it out the door as quickly as is possible. Â It would seem that the timeserved Technicians would not be any better than the apprentices in spotting any changed or unusual data other than a logged fault code.


I totally agree


----------



## Dubcat

When warranty claims are at stake you will find that Audi will ensure that technicians know what they are looking for.

It's the same in all walks of life. When one side evolves, the other side evolves too. Virus's are released anti virus software is written to stop those viruses so new viruses are written and anti virus software is written to stop those viruses etc. People learn to pick locks, so we invent immobilisers. People learn to bypass immobilisers so we invent trackers. etc.

It's a cat and mouse game. If Audi feel that they are losing enough money due to warranty claims that they could squirm out of by showing that a car has been modified you can be sure that Audi will train their dealerships (maybe incentivise it with bonuses or better allocations?) to spot the mods.

my 2 paisas..

phoTToniq

p.s. don't even get me started about the insurance companies - i would never try to diddle the insurance boys out of a few quid.. if they catch you then you are well and truly stuffed.


----------



## jonah

Have you ever talked to an Audi Technichian or any tech for that matter...i didnt think so,most cant even turn a comp on let alone work one ;D
also when u look at how many cars are actually chipped then look at warranty claims on chipped cars i think the cost of warranty claims would be negliable to Audi and VAG
And tobe honest i dont think they give that much of a shit about it


----------



## Major Audi Parts Guru

> When warranty claims are at stake you will find that Audi will ensure that technicians know what they are looking for.


Not true i'm afraid, the vast majority of technicians are really only fitters and they like to do the easy jobs that can earn them loads of bonus Â 


> It's a cat and mouse game. Â If Audi feel that they are losing enough money due to warranty claims that they could squirm out of by showing that a car has been modified you can be sure that Audi will train their dealerships (maybe incentivise it with bonuses or better allocations?) to spot the mods.


I'd stand a better chance of Brittney Spears moving in to my house and marrying me than Audi doing this


----------



## Major Audi Parts Guru

> Have you ever talked to an Audi Technichian or any tech for that matter...i didnt think so,most cant even turn a comp on let alone work one ;D
> also when u look at Â how many cars are actually chipped Â then look at warranty claims on chipped cars i think the cost of warranty claims would be negliable to Audi and VAG
> And tobe honest i dont think they give that much of a shit about it


Agreed


----------



## Silversea

PhoTToniq

If your really lucky / unlucky, the dealership that you use will have a some Very good master technicians that could spot a chipped ecu if for some reason they were querying a claim, but again it is very unlikely to be totally honest with you. :-/ On the other hand if your dealership employs the regular technician......your chipped ecu is as safe as Fort Knox's. 

With regards to the insurance assessor...now this is a different thing, if they suspect that the car is modified an ANYWAY WHAT SO EVER and you have failed to disclose the modifications he WILL find it and you will be BUSTED. [smiley=oops.gif]


----------



## pgtt

could audi ring up your insurance company and ask them if the car they have has been chipped or modded?


----------



## PaulRS3

> could audi ring up your insurance company and ask them if the car they have has been chipped or modded?


doubt it.

1. they wouldnt know who your insured with...

2. data protection act?


----------



## Major Audi Parts Guru

> doubt it.
> 
> 1. they wouldnt know who your insured with...
> 
> 2. data protection act?


Agreed


----------



## clived

Don't worry about the chip. The exhaust, cats, intercooler and spacers might give the game away if you've had your car modified!


----------



## pgtt

:


----------



## ir_fuel

Just curious. Did any of you guys here, or anyone you know ever have problems with insurance companies, after having an accident, where they did not want to pay out and had you pay it yourself because the car was modded/chipped?

The thing is i always hear 2 stories. One telling, do it nobody will notice, and the other being if you do it and insurance finds out you are busteddddd. So anyone with experience in the 2nd story? ;-)

Greetings from Belgium


----------



## Silversea

If anyone was stupid enough to modify a TT without notifying the insurance company of all of the modifications that have been carried out they are CRAZY... [smiley=help.gif] As if they do have to make a claim on their policy or someone elses the insurance assessor will have the knowledge to find out. I have known cases where the insurance have voided policies due to vehicles being modified without their knowledge, then you risk being charged as you were using a vehicle on the highway without suitable insurance cover....automatic ban. [smiley=policeman.gif] [smiley=behead.gif]


----------



## pgtt

I would always inform my insurance of any mods. When i rung up for a quote when i thought about chipping the TT the insurance was only Â£150 extra a year, hardly worth not telling them for Â£150 :-/
I woudn't tell Audi if i could get away with it :-X [smiley=devil.gif]


----------



## Silversea

Yes, for Â£150 it's not worth the risk is it :-/


----------



## PaulRS3

same here +20 % in performance and porsche brake upgrade... cost Â£200 extra

infact that Â£200 was for the chip. Underwriters confirmed i could do what i like to upgrade brakes, at no charge. so i had it put on policy ready.

as it stands i havent done either yet!


----------



## nm_225

When I phoned Tesco today to inform about my "shunt" the guy asked if I'd had any accidents in the last three years and if the car was modified in any way [smiley=rolleyes5.gif]

As I explained to him - ALL that was declared on my proposal form which they accepted and must be on his computer screen - so why ask ???

Point is they are desperate to look for a loophole and if you slip up - they don't get to pay - TOSSERS.


----------



## David_A

Now were heading off the revo topic but, from what I understand legally, and i stand to be corrected.

If you install a mod of whatever sort and have an accident you do not necessarily stand to lose your claim. The mod has to be related to it. E.g. if the car was stolen and modded (before of course  ) They could say it was of greater value to a theif - fair enough.

If your rear ended, it doesn't necessarily mean that the chip, DV, alloys, intercooler and quad miltecs ;D was the cause. However, this is probably all nonsense because the case i saw publicised around this issue,was a few years ago, and was about an escort (or similar) that something ridiculous like different hub caps and the insurance company refused to pay out in for a crash! The owner took it up with ombudsman who saw sense!

Still wouldn't mod without telling them though Â£200 gamble on Â£30000 car - er no!

Dave

p.s. Anyone got their ECU patched yet with the 'revo patch' which fixes the following problems found in etc etc


----------



## Carlos

In fact, if you're rear ended, it would be more likely due to Porsche brakes than a chip ??? :-/


----------



## jonah

you are meant to inform the insurance company about any changes made to ur motor ,even if its a stripe down the side,
as for the revo hopefully next week or early feb for me


----------



## xianb

> It's the same in all walks of life. Â When one side evolves, the other side evolves too. Â Virus's are released anti virus software is written to stop those viruses so new viruses are written and anti virus software is written to stop those viruses etc.


Heh - the only people writing viruses these days are the anti-virus companies themselves. It's not in their interest to irradicate all virus - Â£30/year/employee of every business for updates is more than worth the tiny effort to modify some shite script to make a 'different' strain. It's all a bloody conspircay  If Outlook didn't auto-launch scripts, you wouldn't need AV software to fight against email-virus, which means MS wouldn't get the kick-backs from the AV companies whose scripts Outlook is automatically running ....


----------



## BreTT

> you are meant to inform the insurance company about any changes made to ur motor ,even if its a stripe down the side,
> as for the revo hopefully next week or early feb for me


Anyone that has been keyed recently, be sure to let your insurance company know that you have a racing stripe now...


----------



## TTotal

Just keen to know if this is going any where ? ???


----------



## donny

OK then Has anyone had the REVO update done yet ? or even had the time allocated trial

Cheers

Donald


----------



## TTotal

So..after 26 pages its come to a grinding halt then ?
[smiley=sleeping.gif]


----------



## 55JWB

I'm due to ring Mark the MD tommorrow, I spoke with him last week re upgrading from my APR chip, they are very busy and have the US big wigs about so have been a little pre-occupied. Hoping to get it done later this week.

Only concerne is Spent Â£890 inc vat on chip & cruise and I might have to buy a dongle for another Â£180 

As soon as it is done I'll let you guys know, my office is not far from theirs so hoping to pop in 

Jason


----------



## donny

Im hoping to get the 2 hour test drive but was hoping that there would be a bit more feedback first ;D Might just have to bite the bullit and go for it


----------



## jonah

I spoke with russel last week and he is hopeing to be able to install the upgrade on my car late Jan early Feb,i think there has been a large uptake on this and they wanted to do a few modifications to the program b4 they officially release it.


----------



## TTotal

Well I was wondering what had happened as it went Ballistic (sorry Ballistic) for a while then dead. I sent Russell an e-mail of interest and no response. :-/

Mind you as 2 S3's and another 225 cant catch me , I may be quicker than the rest of you already. After all mine is a V6...isnt yours ?


----------



## gcp

I can't believe that no-one has had this done yet, been away for 10 days so was expecting to read glowing reports and see loads of graphs etc.

Twenty seven pages of waffle and no action 

gcp


----------



## forgemotorsport

TTotal

John Sorry if we missed you please resend to [email protected] and copy [email protected]. We will help you all we can.

Forge - Revo is coming we are just working on a few Â issues that will ease everything for everyone.

Your patience is appreciated


----------



## mark

Do the 'issues' involve reducing the cost and providing a rolling road package? Hope so!

(or are you having problems? Hope not!)

-Mark


----------



## forgemotorsport

Rest assured  there are no software or tecnical issues.


----------



## TTotal

BTTT for Pas55


----------



## Guest

I used to own a Subaru WRX (till some little turd broke in armed with a bat and got the keys from me).

This Revo product sounds very similar to a product from ecutek(http://www.ecutek.co.uk) that flashes the memory eprom on the ECU. Chances are that the procedure will be identical. This product the last time I checked was taking the Subaru community by storm due to the fact that it's so cheap compared to being 'chipped' or having a custom ECU being installed

Regards
Muncher

PS No TT yet but looking for one Â


----------



## 55JWB

Booked in Next Week!

Will keep everyone posted [smiley=mexicanwave.gif]

Jason


----------



## TTotal

What day , i'm there on Weds at 11 next week too ?


----------



## pgtt

im sooo tempted by this forge revo thing but is it really that unditectable (sp) from the Audi dealers :-/


----------



## TTotal

Phil, send all your questions to Russell at Forge.

He don't lie. I wouldnt risk it and I'm not as stupid as you are.Trust them ! Its only a few quid for lots of horses .


----------



## pgtt

jon, so what you saying? :


----------



## TTotal

Phil I am typing this slowly as I know you do not read very quickly.
Give your money to the nice man at Forge and he will make your car faster. It is as simple as that, now off you go ! ;D


----------



## pgtt

> Phil I am typing this slowly as I know you do not read very quickly.
> Give your money to the nice man at Forge and he will make your car faster. It is as simple as that, now off you go ! Â ;D


so what exactly you trying to say?  :


----------



## TTotal

Sorry ?


----------



## PaulRS3

seeing as im part to blame for posting about it....!

mines going in saturday........ ;D


----------



## pgtt

whats going on er then one minute cant see who has replyed then its 29 pages now 28 WTF?


----------



## PaulRS3

where is my post? ???

says i was last to repy, but no post???

will this revive it?


----------



## pgtt

what post? :-/


----------



## Emmy

Hey all...

After reading the last 6 pages, I see that the thread hasnt really moved on since I last posted 

Anyways...

pgtt - the system is indeed 'invisible' to the Audi diagnostic equipment. However, if someone is determined enough (and good enough), they could find it. Fortunately, Audi dealerships do not have the technical knowledge to try and find it, and even if they did, it would take too long (and not be cost effective). Of course, you would need to buy the dongle too to make it totally invisible, as if the car goes in for warranty work, and is still driveable, the technician can simply take it for a drive and will obviously note that the car is a lot quicker than normal! The dongle will allow you to return the car to 'factory specs' before taking it in for warranty work.

As for insurance, as always it's best to declare this sort of thing... But again, if the car is put into stock mode with the dongle, its extremely unlikely anyone will find anything.

Finally, altho I havent seen any graphs yet, the system is built by the former APR Europe guys, and in conjunction with Forge Motorsport.. chances are, it'll be very reliable and produce excellent power. 

The only thing I'd do in addition is to have a rolling-road session afterwards, just to make sure everything is running as expected (primarily A/F ratios)... But that's just me 

Shash.


----------



## PaulRS3

mine and 3 other Revo'd S3's will be at the RS246.com rolling road on the 5th.

;D


----------



## TTotal

Paul S3 , hi, I am being done on the 5th, wher is the RR for checking and how much, is there one nearby I am in Southampton area ?

Cheers John


----------



## forgemotorsport

3 TT's done yesterday. 

We are getting there slowly. :-/
The response for Forge - Revo has been staggering and has taken us all by surprise , We have also been delayed by hardware production shortages.


----------



## Lisa.

Ok, what's a Dongle? 
An invisible switch?


----------



## Guest

Three TT's done yesterday huh!! 

Guess the guyz who had it done yesterday are too busy enjoying themselves with thoses extra horses to post and tell us how good it is!! ;D

Come on guys!! tell us how good this revo mod is!!


----------



## jonah

Having mine done tomorrow so just hope the snow holds off so i can check it out, ;D
will obviously be reporting back


----------



## Guest

YES at last I've got the REVO re-map was the first yesterday I think!

Firstly many thanks to Forge Motorsport whom in my opinion have reached a new level in customer satisfaction and looked after me when a few hic-ups occurred when initially launching the product. And many thanks to Rusell who not only travelled to my home in Wakefield to install the programme but also endured many a phone call from myself on when i would get it (Big thanks Russell).

I have gone for the SP3 package which gives you more programmes and also lets you vary the boost and timing to suit your car. Russell first installed the programme to suit my ECU then set some parameter on his lap top and off we went for a test drive the car was in performance mode and set for normal unleaded petrol. when we got on a bit of dual carriage I opened up the car while Russel monitored his laptop the car performed very much like the TT stock programme only lots more powerfull (reminded me of the APR chipped car I drove the previous week which i guess is no supprise). We then pulled over and because I have other mods on my car i.e Milltek exhaust, Induction air filter, Russell felt the car was breathing well and altered some parameters on the laptop. Off we go again and the car felt even faster but the power delivery was really smooth not peaky at all right through the rev range. Russells own comments you have one very quick TT.

With the programme now set and cutomised by Rusell he then explained how the electronic key or dongle worked and how I had partial control over boost and timing settings (all within safety limits).

At this point we had not run the car on the high boost setting (Optimmax,High octane additives, even race fuel if you can get it) to which russell showed me how to swap between programmes and alter them via the two switches on the electronic key. Russell had more people to make happy and left me with the words go play!

I set the switch for High Boost mode set the boost on the 10 position switch to 7 and the timing to 7 and off I went. The car was in another league now or thats how it felt to me I could not believe how running on Optimax made so much difference to the power of the car. Again very smooth but the engine which in fairness would probably be due to some of my other mod's as well is Soooooo! responsive and smooth 3 figure speeds are soon showining. I have not had time to play with the switching but believe there is more to come.

All this is just my opinion and I am sure there are others more qualified and better able to explain things than me, but I am one VERY! VERY! Happy bunny and I feel this was worth the wait and feel sure this product will go far.

Right where is that nearest rolling road!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks Forge and REVO and I look forward to making acquaintances with you again in the future.

P.S I think it will be for a brake upgrade me thinks I might be needing one................


----------



## mav

;D ;D

wow DGS - sounds like it does the trick - I'm just a poor little newbee too but I guess loads of people on here will be interested to hear your report - one question - I've dipped in and out of this thread so it may have been answered elsewhere but can I have this revo treatment with no requirement for other mods at all (except perhaps getting uprated brakes, as you suggest) - ie its 500 quid all in and thats it ?

oh... and have you tried the security setting yet (I think its free with your SPS3) - that sounds cool too.... 8)

Mav


----------



## scoTTy

Sounds good.

I can only think of one downside....

When Revo users go on a rolling road we are gonna get so many different results coz they'll all have different settings!! ;D


----------



## PaulRS3

> Paul S3 , hi, I am being done on the 5th, wher is the RR for checking and how much, is there one nearby I am in Southampton area ?
> 
> Cheers Â John


John, Mine is being done this Sat (31st)

The rolling road is an independant one, arranged by a few lads at www.rs234.com . Its Held at aylesbury, and is reputed to be very accurate..

cost is Â£50 inc vat for 2 runs,

http://forums.rs246.com/forums/show...ber=537&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1


----------



## Guest

MAV
You don't need to do any additional mod's at all mine started with a DV and sort of grew. Was warned once you start modding you become addictive. 

Hi Scotty was going to mail you later with my latest purchases. Never thought of different BHP figures for different cars, but don't you think that is also the beauty of the product that it can be tailored to an extent to the mod's you have on your car. After all it's only the same as someone having a re-chip and then going that extra by fitting an exhaust intercooler cats etc which would add more BHP on the rollers than just a car fitted with just a re-chip.

And many thanks fo all your help Scotty you certainly helped make my mind up.

P.S Me and Maggie have booked on the Audi weekend for October hope we might see you there.

David.


----------



## jonah

Sound wicked i cant wait till tomorrow.
one question i always run my car on optimax so will russel set the car to the better performance as u decribed using the dongle only to switch from stock/performance ?
i guess he will advise whaen i see him tomorrow, i'm also having the exhaust but it wont bee fitted till a day of two after the remap unless russel fittes it but dought it so will adjustments need to be made once the exhaust is fitted?

in a quandry now as to whether to go for the adjustable dongle or the standard one :-/


----------



## Guest

Hi Jonah,
Russell sets a base set of parameters into the car and then as you are driving the the car he is looking at the readings of the car on his laptop and he can adjust accordingly. With me having the SP3 switch it enabled me to have some flexiblity over the programme settings, I guess if you just have the base programme then you will might only get the a perfomance programme and not be able to do any adjustments. But I am only guessing and feel sure Russell will inform you better than me.

One thing I do know and that is I don't think you will be disapointed with the results which ever switch you go for. But in my honest opinion I think its worth the extra to go for SP3 and have some flexibility looks cool when you say to your mates i will just tweek the ECU a bit too!

Hope you report back when you have had it done.

David


----------



## forgemotorsport

Forge - Revo the future of chip tuning . 

Happy see satisfied a customer . 

Any queries please call 01452 380999


----------



## jgoodman00

> When Revo users go on a rolling road we are gonna get so many different results coz they'll all have different settings!! Â ;D


Is this going to lead to a home rolling-road group buy, with people desperate to get the absolute maximum from their cars


----------



## Silversea

> Forge - Revo the Â future of chip tuning .
> 
> Happy see satisfied a Â customer .
> 
> Any queries please call 01452 380999


Sounds just what the doctor ordered [smiley=deal2.gif]

Have you any news on the completion on the AE files yet ???

Regards,
Des.


----------



## hutters

> Ok, what's a Dongle?
> An invisible switch?


Lisa Click Here if you really want to find out more about dongles


----------



## PaulRS3

> Have you any news on the completion on the AE files yet ???


Just nosey! Â  noticed you mentioned this before...

whats "the AE files" Â ???

"the truth is out there............" Â :


----------



## pgtt

im convinced with this revo forge thing so im saving my 50p a week pocket money to have the treatment done


----------



## Silversea

> Just nosey! Â  noticed you mentioned this before...
> 
> whats "the AE files" Â ???
> 
> "the truth is out there............" Â :


My TT is fitted with an AE code control unit....... [smiley=deal2.gif] seems as though it is the only ECU code that has not as yet been completed for the TT... [smiley=bigcry.gif]


----------



## foz01

They are Getting the cars on the Rolling road today so expect to see the power fiures shortly.

Oh and Scottish peeps


----------



## jonah

wow just had mine done, will report back ! going for a nice run to test it out ;D


----------



## himpe

go on tell your storry ...


----------



## TTombo

looking forward to hearing your tell Jonah!


----------



## TTotal

Jonah...JONAH ! Are you still whizzing about ? You'll make it sore ! Come on tell us the news please ! :-/


----------



## forgemotorsport

With reference to "AE" files
there are a number of different ECU's fitted in the 225 and 180 models.
One of these ECU's has a part number
8N0 906 018 *AE*
I can confirm that we do have the code to upgrade these ECU's.
Hope this helps


----------



## pgtt

anyone else not able to see the forge post :-/


----------



## vlastan

> With reference to "AE" files
> there are a number of different ECU's fitted in the 225 and 180 models.
> One of these ECU's has a part number
> 8N0 906 018 *AE*
> I can confirm that we do have the code to upgrade these ECU's.
> Hope this helps


You mean this post? I can see it.


----------



## Sammers

Yep, see my post in the Site News section.

It does that everytime a new post is the first on a page without any other posts, since you posted, phil, the forge post is now visible. Is will happen again on page 33....

Where has Jonah gone!


----------



## Lisa.

So no one is bothering with the trial version then?

I'll feel a bit of a wuss if I'm the only one. :'(


----------



## jonah

[smiley=drummer.gif] [smiley=drummer.gif]
where do u want me to start! 
Russel turned up at about 9.30 ,dashed out of work to meet him,so laptop connected checked out the serial no of the ecu all good so uploaded the program ,took all of 8 mins if that, did a few more things ignition on off on again and hey presto all done.
Then took the car out to test it with russel still with his laptop connected ,pulled over made a few adjustments then a drive , noticed the difference straight away ;D then back to mine settled up the Â£'s .
decided to take the car for a long run so went up to manchester on the m6, the power is so different,but through the range not just acceleration it was a struggel to keep below 90 , ok i'm not tottaly ofay with all this stuff but i will say i'm well impressed and i'm sure you alll will be if you have it done. oh and still got the exhaust to be fitted tomorrow wich russel says will give me more torque mid range or something like that.
gone for the sps1 dongel as i always use optimax and cant really see myself wanting to mess with boost and timing.

All i can say is i have a very quick TT! It's Â awsome ;D never have i grinned so much apart from the day i took delivery ;D Might need some new brake pads now i think oh and my snooper which should be here soon


----------



## jonah

John you will be impressed i'm sure ;D
And Lisa once you have had the trial you will want the full version believe me ;D


----------



## 55JWB

I'm booked in for Friday at Revo as it is closer to me to get my APR upgraded to Revo ;D I cant wait to ask about then experience first hand the differences between the two different codes, I'm going for the SP3 so will have all the options, Just hope I know what the hell I'm doing with them [smiley=book2.gif]

Anyone else got the SP3 yet, have they 'fiddled'??

Jason


----------



## jonah

I'd be intrested to hear your views on the two remaps as ur probably the first to have the conversion from APR to Revo forge


----------



## giles

Would it be possible to have some sort of basic summary here?

I was going to go to AmD again with the new TT, but may consider this.


----------



## Silversea

How much is the SP3 version...is this Â£500 or is that for the SP1 ???

Forge, Thanks for the information regarding the AE file.....Now where's the plastic [smiley=deal2.gif]


----------



## Guest

> I used to own a Subaru WRX (till some little turd broke in armed with a bat and got the keys from me).
> 
> This Revo product sounds very similar to a product from ecutek(http://www.ecutek.co.uk) that flashes the memory eprom on the ECU. Chances are that the procedure will be identical. This product the last time I checked was taking the Subaru community by storm due to the fact that it's so cheap compared to being 'chipped' or having a custom ECU being installed


Almost Muncher, except Ecutek is a custom remap like AMD do, from what I can gather from this post Revos' product ( although possible quite good) is a generic solution. A certain well known chip company ( who happened to have a bad rep in the Subaru market ) have been doing flash upgrades to ECUs via diagnostic sockets for years.

Personally I favour complete replacement ECU thats mappable via laptop, this gives alot more flexibility, especially in terms of other upgrades made to the car at a later date. Best of all you can take the ECU to you next car when you change. However, the cost of this is of course higher. For example the system I'd use would cost Â£1500+ installed and mapped by someone competent.

Not wishing to diss anyones products, just thought I'd better clear the confusion between ecutek & revo.

Question for mitchell/forge the add on that allows you to change timing settings & boost settings, what safeguards are there to prevent det under extreme conditions ( e.g. track day during summer, full advanced timing full boost ) ? Do you rely on motronics' knock sensor to retard the timing ?

Edited to remove name of chip company.


----------



## coupe-sport

> Personally I favour complete replacement ECU thats mappable via laptop, this gives alot more flexibility, especially in terms of other upgrades made to the car at a later date. Best of all you can take the ECU to you next car when you change. However, the cost of this is of course higher. For example the system I'd use would cost Â£1500+ installed and mapped by someone competent.


True its very flexible, but for owners looking for a 'stage1' upgrade, that allows the ECU to remain physically untouched the Revo solution is ideal.



> A certain well known chip company


 *lol* - well MAP sensor clamps and relying on the Scooby running a bit rich is a bit of a bodge ...


----------



## Guest

> True its very flexible, but for owners looking for a 'stage1' upgrade, that allows the ECU to remain physically untouched the Revo solution is ideal.


This is a good point and is well made, the only pitfall being if you want to go further eventually you have to dump your stage1 ( whatever that might be ) and start again, in the long run more expensive. If you can live with your stage 1 then cool!



> *lol* - well MAP sensor clamps and relying on the Scooby running a bit rich is a bit of a bodge ...


Heheh, so you know who I mean then  Not exactly hi-tech eh ? I think they are rapidly loosing market share....

At least Revo are quoting sensible power gains!
I come from a vauxhall tuning background - mainly turbo. At the moment theres a big fuss over a product from Germany that is a generic solution for the cavalier/calibra turbo engine. They quote a power gain of 110bhp for Â£1k or 375bhp for about Â£3-4k. It is of course crap, runs lean, idle problems, fail mot emissions, some engines have gone bang etc.. 
What annoys me is that all the kiddies think its a great piece of kit!


----------



## coupe-sport

> I come from a vauxhall tuning background - mainly turbo


ah - the 4x4 Cav and calibra then... i wont mention transfer boxes... 

Agree a flexible engine management system is the way to go (especially with on the fly mapping) but the Motronic ecu pretty flexible and i would say that with the Revo technology and a good dyno, that a custom map could be an option ?? - Forge ??


----------



## forgemotorsport

SilverSea225
SPP =ECU reflash is Â£ 499.00 + vat 
SPS1 is Â£ 149.00 + vat
SPS3 is Â£249.00 + vat

Crafty
Even on SPS 3 the remap is still within the safety parameters of VAG software .


----------



## Guest

> ah - the 4x4 Cav and calibra then... i wont mention transfer boxes... Â


Heheh, yes they do go but not if the car is looked after ( change 4 tyres all at once, make sure tread depth is even, change fluid regularly etc ). My car has 172k on it. Last owner replaced the tx box at 83k after it went pop. Its done 120k on this clutch Â  that now slips Â : Head was off at 52k cos it was porous ( again previous owner, but vauxhall paid for it ), but other than that the engine is original ( bar hybrid turbo ). Its been good, but its time for it to go ( want an S3 ).



> Agree a flexible engine management system is the way to go (especially with on the fly mapping) but the Motronic ecu pretty flexible and i would say that with the Revo technology and a good dyno, that a custom map could be an option ?? - Forge ??


Dont see why Revo wouldn't be able to do that. PE do exactly that on Imprezas and I think Evos too. Don't even need a rolling road, as conditions here are not the same as out on the road. I know a very popular Impreza tuner who maps wholly on the road, hes not alone either.

Time to own up, another attracttion to mappable systems is you get anti-lag ;D and for 2wd car owners launch control which is pretty fab too ;D


----------



## 55JWB

I'm off to Revo in the morning ;D ;D Apparently I put my old Standard chip back in and get that #re-flashed' I assume my APR chip is up for grabs?? Is it as simple as soldering in, anyone want it or do you think they will keep it ???


----------



## TTotal

Actually they are the same size as your sim card , so stick it in the Nokia and get faster connections ! ;D
(But talk slowly otherwise you can't be understood)


----------



## Emmy

> Dont see why Revo wouldn't be able to do that. PE do exactly that on Imprezas and I think Evos too. Don't even need a rolling road, as conditions here are not the same as out on the road. I know a very popular Impreza tuner who maps wholly on the road, hes not alone either.


Ahm... REVO also have a system called "The advanced user option...". It comes with a CD-ROM and SPS3, and allows you to hook your laptop up to the system. This lets you customise your map, without any restraints on the timing or boost settings. They only recommend that people who know what they are doing use it, and only for racing use! Dont think it's available for purchase yet tho... Mitchell/Russell - got an ETA?

Also, as for mapping on the road, I agree - it's more realistic... BUT, it has one major flaw (especially with no safety restraints)... You dont have an A/F ratio reading! Unless your software also accesses the diagnostics of the ECU, and gets a reading straight from the O2 sensor, or you have your own A/F gauge fitted... This is a very important reading when playing with unrestricted settings... As you probably know, running lean can destroy an engine quite quickly! I'd prefer mapping on a rolling road, then tweaking on the real road...

Shash.


----------



## forgemotorsport

As far as I am aware the Advanced tuning option will only be available to the dealers who have the complete facilities to be able to deal with this new sofware.


----------



## Guest

> Ahm... Â REVO also have a system called "The advanced user option...". Â It comes with a CD-ROM and SPS3, and allows you to hook your laptop up to the system. Â This lets you customise your map, without any restraints on the timing or boost settings. Â They only recommend that people who know what they are doing use it, and only for racing use! Â Dont think it's available for purchase yet tho... Â Mitchell/Russell - got an ETA?


oooh, this is sounding more like it.. be interestied to have a look at that...



> Also, as for mapping on the road, I agree - it's more realistic... Â BUT, it has one major flaw (especially with no safety restraints)... Â You dont have an A/F ratio reading! Â Unless your software also accesses the diagnostics of the ECU, and gets a reading straight from the O2 sensor, or you have your own A/F gauge fitted... Â This is a very important reading when playing with unrestricted settings... Â As you probably know, running lean can destroy an engine quite quickly! Â I'd prefer mapping on a rolling road, then tweaking on the real road...


I wouldn't do *any* mapping without an A/F meter running from the O2 sensor. In fact the ideal setup is to have two, a wideband and a narrowband. Of course reading off of the O2 sensor isn't always accurate, the best way is to use a gas analyser with a probe shoved up the exhaust. A set of det cans are also nice to have, just to be sure!


----------



## 55JWB

I got Revo'd today ;D Went to their place in Daventry and got looked after really well..

I had a meeting not far from their office so they lent me a golf diesel TDI that develops 180 bhp and some cranky tourque figures! it was wheel spinning in 1st and 2nd in the dry!..

Anyway after my meeting I went to pick up my car and went throught the SPS3 instructions and I'm totally confused ???

Its a different code to the APR chip that was removed. It was left in "low boost 9" mode leaving me to play with all the high boost 1-9 settings and the advancing of the timing settings. I havent played yet, hoping to over the weekend .

First impression is that in current setting is a bit smoother than my APR 98 ron program, the power comes in a little earlier at 3k revs as opposed to 3.5k and stays all the way to the red  Apparently the other settings put the power in earlier and harder but it will fade i.e. a much shorter power band.

In the past depending on how you want your car to feel after being chipped meant which chip company you used, in fact advice here on the forum was experience the different chip companies before you buy to establish which you liked/suited your style of driving.

Now you can have a fully switchable program allowing you to change the style to suit your mood on the day  If you are planning a track day and plan to use octane boosting additives you can reset your car and then put it back again when finished for your normal fill up..

I cant say I understand it all yet but I do get that the ECU learns about your driving and which fuel you use. using the SPS3 you can tweek the ECU manually i.e advance the timing when using optimax when cold, retard it a little if summer and a little more if runing standard unleaded.

All in all I think its a great product allowing the owner alot more controll over the car and its setup wothout having to work for a racing team at the weekends to get the knowledge.

I would be really interested to hear how anyone else with SPS3 has got on and what setting they have settled for...

Jason


----------



## PaulRS3

will find out tomorrow weather permitting.... ;D

cant wait...........

myself, a Apr S3, and a 1.8T sport A4...


----------



## 55JWB

Jonah,

How you getting on with yours?? what setting are you running at the moment?

Cheers

Jason


----------



## m7ttc

Quick question for those lucky SPS3 owners  Does the SPS3 come with the security feature allowing you to disable the car? This would be really great when leaving you car to go on holiday, etc.


----------



## 55JWB

Yep ;D Apparently if you leave it in security mode even of the ECU is taken out and replaced the car still wont start.. God knows how that works, its the Revo fairy's or something


----------



## jonah

Very pleased with it ;D difficult to keep my foot off the pedal though.i got the sp1 just able to switch from stock to performance mode :-/ felt i wouldnt need the extra boost or timing feature but who knows i might upgrade later 
Tell u what u can definatly hear that turbo working now ;D


----------



## PaulRS3

Wow! 

I come back from test drive saying

" i need better brakes" ;D

I went for SPS 3 to make full use of Optimax..

must admit all possible combinations of the switches seemed daunting, but after a long Q & A session, it seems quite clear now.

And yes it does have security, tho i havent tried it yet.

roll on wednesday.


----------



## jonah

ok paul so how does it compare to the APR remap?


----------



## 55JWB

Paul,

Wot setting you using, I tried High boost 4 today which seems pretty rapid 

Not sure I want to try the High Boost 9 with advanced timing aslo, I think we can use advance timing 7 when using optimax in the cold weather ???

To be honest, I have still not got it ??? 

Jason


----------



## 55JWB

Jonah,

I refer to the APR remap in my earlier post... ;D ;D


----------



## PaulRS3

JONAH :

i was standard before. I can only compare against the REVO low boost equivalent to APR. and the Revo High boost settings. and ive only had car done a day... so need more time in the saddle!! having said that, there is a considerable differnce the between the two, revo settings mentioned.

JASON.

Im currently on Highboost 9 and have Timing set for 7 for optimax (6 or 7 im told) and by god does it shift. and i dont mean off the line,(im kind to haldex, gearbox, tyres and clutch!!), i mean in gear.....

however, im not intending to run it like that all the time, i will revert it back to the equivalent of APR 1.4 bar program,(low9) with optimax timing.. for everyday use.

atleast i will always have a bit more to play with as and when i want it. I dont see running the car flat out all the time,even if its within the safe working parameters of the engine.

I will be at a rolling road on wednesday and As im having two runs, i may try and get one of each...... ie a low9 and a high9 graph.


----------



## 55JWB

Cool, I look forward to hearing those results ;D


----------



## jonah

I can now see the benifits of having the sps3 against the sps1 :-/ I feel mine is running a similar set up to urs and although extremely happy with it, i would like to probably sample some lower settings.Timing i would say is set around the 7 mark also i i'm always runing optimax.
Russel mentioned a cable and program that would alow me to alter these similar to the sps3 but using a laptop so this might be an extra bit of kit i invest in or exchange my sps1 in the future for the sps3 which russel said wouldnt be a problem just have to pay the difference.
anyway i think i'll be going to the revo meet arranged by Major parts guru and if anyone is there with the sps3 may sample the various setting


----------



## Silversea

What does the SPS 3 look like...is it dials ?? anyone got any pixs...
Can't wait to get mine done...


----------



## Lisa.

That's it you've totally put me off, too much fiddling and too much jargon. :-/

Lisa


----------



## Silversea

> That's it you've totally put me off, too much fiddling and too much jargon. :-/
> 
> Lisa


Lisa, If your not comfortable with "Fiddling" then just go for the SPS 1 as to the best of my knowledge there is nothing to adjust  more or less the same as most remaps from the other tuners.


----------



## jonah

Lisa dont be confused, just go for the on/off sps1 nothing complicated about that.
try it first anyway


----------



## jonah

its the size of a packet of ten **** with either 1 for the sps1 or 3 small knobs for the sps3 1st knob same for both switches to stock or performance the other two sps3 alter ur boost or timing not sure about the ecu disabling think that linked into knob 1 but not sure.
mines at my local postoffice waiting to be picked up as russel had run out of em when he did mine


----------



## PaulS

> That's it you've totally put me off, too much fiddling and too much jargon. :-/
> 
> Lisa


*LOL* I Know what you mean! May be just go for the wheels eh? 

:-/ I thought you are saving up your money to go into a newer RHD TT soon?


----------



## Silversea

Ahh, I'm with you ! Where does it get fitted ? or is this part of the dongle where you make a selection and then remove it from the port ?


----------



## PaulRS3

Sps 3 only has 2 switches.


no Hardware is "fiitted" only a software upload.

all switching, takes place on a removable dongle or switch box.

its only in OBD port for a few seconds whihlst switching...


----------



## Silversea

Thanks for that Paul, I thought that might be the set-up. 

Regards,
Des.


----------



## 55JWB

Just had a thought... for Revo or Forge

With the APR stuff you could switch back to standard and needed a pin code to get the performance program back again.

If an Audi Dealer were to purchase their own dongle could they check to see if you are Revo'd or would they simply upload a program by using the dongle itself... I think I've answered my own question, if it were as simple as just buying a dongle thats all you would buy..??

But not much security from the dealer???

Not sure what takes place with the original Â£499 upload and then what happens when you use the Â£249 SPS3 dongle???

Sorry for the waffle and babble just thinking and typing at the same time :-/


----------



## forgemotorsport

When you use the SPS switching device to switch from the performance program to the stock program, you must use the same SPS device to switch back to performance. This means that anyone with another SPS unit cannot reactivate your performance program or detect that you have a hidden performance option.

This also applies to the SPS3 anti theft option, only the SPS3 used to disable can be used to enable.

If however you have the SPS1 and are in performance mode you can borrow a friends SPS3 device to change your boost and timing settings.

Hope this helps.


----------



## 55JWB

Thanks for clearing that Russel,

Jonah and I had the conversation earlier about his SPS1 and my SPS3 and whether or not I could change his program with my SPS3. Assuming I changed his to High Boost 9 when he then used his SPS1 what would happen?

Thanks

Jason


----------



## jonah

ok mr forge can u answer this for me!! say i was in performance using my sps1 then met upwith someone and used there sps3 to alter say my boost,then drove of home with these settings still on.
if i then swap it back to stock then back to performance would the boost setting i installed using a friends sps3 still be there or would it revert back to my origanal settings?


----------



## forgemotorsport

Once the settings are changed with the SPS3, then these settings will remain your performance program settings even if you switch back to standard and back to performance . 
So if you are borrowing an SPS3 to make changes, set it to your normal running configuration before you give it back. Remember - Do not set it back to stock with a borrowed SPS unit as you will not be able to enable the performance program with a different SPS unit.


----------



## 55JWB

Thanks


----------



## jonah

Thought as much [smiley=cheers.gif]


----------



## 55JWB

Cant see the last post, hopefully me posting should free it up ???


----------



## coupe-sport

Booked in on the 14th... 2wd and 270lbft should be fun Â ;D ;D ;D ;D

cant wait Â


----------



## jonah

u will ;D
for people who are curious here's a pic of the sps1


----------



## Silversea

Thanks for that Jonah, it is different to what I pictured. :-/


----------



## coupe-sport

> Thanks for that Jonah, it is different to what I pictured


u only need to use it when you are changing maps so it only needs to look functional 

Interesting to see it though (i'm sad like that)


----------



## nutts

If you lose your dongle... how much does it cost to replace?


----------



## DXN

> Thanks for that Jonah, it is different to what I pictured. Â :-/


Me too, I thought it would at lease be a lead to a switch box.
Would you keep it in the car then to switch at leisure.? Stock for the trundle back from work and performance for the other 23 hours of the day. ;D


----------



## Silversea

> Booked in on the 14th... 2wd and 270lbft should be fun Â ;D ;D ;D ;D
> 
> cant wait Â


That will be an amazing car to drive after the Revo mod  I drove my brother-in-laws Golf GTTdi 150 the other week and it was amazing....just so much torque  Very Underestimated. I would think if more people had the chance to drive one then they would buy it....even if it is an "Oil Burner".


----------



## jonah

i've turned mine back to stock just to see the difference again ;D makes the TT feel like a pussy cat now back to performance again i think.
dont plan to loose mine but if i did i would hope forge would do a deal on a second,as when they get the thatcham approval i believe they will have to supply two of these to get it! for the security version


----------



## 55JWB

I will try to get a picture of my SPS3 which is slightly different.. not wishing to boast but I have two dials/switches not just one 

Each one is just a dial numbered 1-9 and each has a coresponding program. There is a key on the back of mine which I will take a picture of also


----------



## jonah




----------



## coupe-sport

looks a nice simple unit - i think mine might need a lead though as the diagnostics port is in the centre console. Still with the SPS1 it'll only need using when the cars off for a service or the g/f is driving 

rgds


----------



## V6 TT

.......can any of you guys tell me whether the security feature will be released as a seperate dongle or will I have to obtaing the full SP3 performance dongle to get it?

The thing is, that I don't fancy tuning my brand new TTC in March as I'd like to break it in a bit for at least 5,000 miles, but would like the security feature.......

Dean
P.S. The dongle looks extremely proffessional!


----------



## coupe-sport

isnt that feature on the SPS2 - if so just use that feature and leave the car in standard mode until you feel the car is run in... ?


----------



## nutts

> .... leave the car in standard mode until you feel the car is run in... ?


Yeah right and how many of us in a similar situation with a button to press to boost performance by 40bhp would resist NOT pressing the button for 5000 miles ;D ;D


----------



## V6 TT

.......there lyeth me problem! There would be noooo way I could stop myself from hitting the LOUD button (or Dial) and then BOOM, good buy ickle TT engine!

Maybe Mr Forge may like to comment on a possible security switch only dongle?

Cheers

Dean


----------



## 55JWB

Yep.. I had every intention to leave it in low boost something for economy, yeah right, Ive got is set in high boost 9 timing advanced to 7 to take full advantage of the optimax and its lovely ;D ;D

When you put it back to standard, it does seem really slow


----------



## 55JWB

Lets see if I can get this to work...

There should be below a few piccies of my SPS3





































Hope this helps

Jason


----------



## 55JWB

This might be better...





































:-[


----------



## himpe

???


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## Sammers

Just right click on the image if it is not there and goto properties cut and past into another browser and up comes the real picture, well it does for me!

Looks good, nice chart on the back.

Craig


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## 55JWB

> ???


The pictures are what the thread is all about [smiley=dizzy2.gif]


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## himpe

here you go


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## 55JWB

Cheers Himpe....

I could see them on my page obviously you could not ???


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## TTotal

[smiley=drummer.gif] [smiley=iloveyou.gif]FORGE ! [smiley=cheers.gif] Today after a minor hiccup (The Revo upgrade doesnt like hands free phones ) and a small exchange of Â£Â£Â£Â£ ... I have now got A BLOODY ROCKET ! [smiley=dude.gif] Quite incredible, the acceleration just goes on and on. Even in 6 th gear , from 2500 floor it and the car just takes off ! The turbo shreaks like a howling banshee and whoosh you get jet proppelled into the future !!!!!!! [smiley=devil.gif] Also had the Forge new Exhaust system fitted at the same time, little bit throatier ;D

Quite amazing, there is no coughs or splutters and all very smooth. It is so hard to drive normally now !
I was on business down in Cornwall and had the fix at lunchtime at Forge in Gloucester , have been charging about playing all day , and ended up here at Southamton office !!!Got to be in Devon by 8am , still thats only 20 mins away now :

Truly amazing, your all welcome to try Tux and see for your self.

Gob truly smacked ... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Well done Russell and Peter at Forge !


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## jonah

Knew u would like it ;D what switching device did u go for ? snow here so mines back to stock


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## A3DFU

I very vividly remember the feeling of having my car re-chipped: it's just awesome ;D ;D
Enjoy TTotal [smiley=thumbsup.gif]


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## pgtt

> [smiley=drummer.gif] [smiley=iloveyou.gif]FORGE ! [smiley=cheers.gif] Â Today after a minor hiccup (The Revo upgrade doesnt like hands free phones ) Â and a small exchange of Â£Â£Â£Â£ ... I have now got Â A BLOODY ROCKET ! Â [smiley=dude.gif] Quite incredible, the acceleration just goes on and on. Â Even in 6 th gear , from 2500 floor it and the car just takes off ! Â The turbo shreaks like a howling banshee and whoosh you get jet proppelled into the future !!!!!!! [smiley=devil.gif] Also had the Forge new Exhaust system fitted at the same time, little bit throatier Â ;D
> 
> Quite amazing, there is no coughs or splutters and all very smooth. Â It is so hard to drive normally now !
> I was on business down in Cornwall and had the fix at lunchtime at Forge in Gloucester , have been charging about playing all day , and ended up here at Southamton office !!!Got to be in Devon by 8am , still thats only 20 mins away now Â :
> 
> Truly amazing, your all welcome to try Tux and see for your self.
> 
> Gob truly smacked ... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Well done Russell and Peter at Forge !


I take it your pleased then mate [smiley=guitarist.gif] [smiley=guitarist.gif] ;D


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## coupe-sport

nice one John - look forward to seeing that at the next Guildford meet

rgds


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## pgtt

wheres the bloody post gone


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## TTotal

Hi Guys,
Went for the SPS1 Dingledangle so its either stock or performance mode. Thats all I need. I know which one it will be on all the time too !

Truly awesome. Its what I expected the TT to be like in the first place.

Not quite as fast as accelerating as my Bike but getting there ! Really feels like twice the power ! ! !  Dead Chuffed !


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## Jazzedout

Has anyone driven both a 1999-2000 Revo car and a 2001-2003 (pre VVT and VVT) to see if there is any difference in performance? Every chipped older car I have tryed seemed faster than the newer VVT cars. (I speak for S3's and 225 TT's) I have the impression that older cars were easier and better to tune. Mine is a 2001  Maybe Forge could comment on this...


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## Mike_G

Sorry to ask questions that have been raised before but I'm losing track of the 40+ pages on this thread.

Is there any 'special rates' for forum/ttoc members ? if so what are they.

For those that have had it done what did you pay for the level of mod you had done.

Has anyone had the rolling road charts done yet (before/after)?

What do the insurance companies think of this ?

Sounds great mod to me, assuming my insurance don't make it prohibatively expensive they may have another customer!

Mike


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## nm_225

I had to dissapointingly cancel my install when Forge rang the other day as my car is still of the road due to Laguna interface problems 

Good job the M3's coming in April ;D


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## jonah

Cost of upgrade i would prefer to abstain  although they did a cracking deal on the exhaust for me ;D
In theory u wouldnt have to tell the insurance because its undetectable :-X, i myself havent taken the chance and told them about everything including exhaust,dv,and revo upgrade,
as for cost on insurance
exhaust increase of 5bhp pos Â£75 :-/
revo and exhaust increas of 25% bhp Â£120 
DV increas 0% bhp Â£0
i dont know how they work there figures out ???


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## TTotal

> Sorry to ask questions that have been raised before but I'm losing track of the 40+ pages on this thread.
> 
> Is there any 'special rates' for forum/ttoc members ? if so what are they.
> 
> For those that have had it done what did you pay for the level of mod you had done.
> 
> Has anyone had the rolling road charts done yet (before/after)?
> 
> What do the insurance companies think of this ?
> 
> Sounds great mod to me, assuming my insurance don't make it prohibatively expensive they may have another customer!
> 
> Mike


Mike, Hi and nice to see you on here.
For what I had installed, the basic mod, I could not be bothered with the RRoad , thats about Â£50 a play I hear. The important thing to me is that it works. Forge say its given an increase of 225 up to 275 ish.
It also depends what your car is to start with, some are up to 5 % lees and some 5 % more than 225hp.
So the basic sells for Â£499 plus vat but of course you'll also need the dongle Â£149 plus vat. This is the electronic switch that can turn ther system back to normal when required. In my view daft not to get it especially if your car is under warranty...................

You can have a free 2 hours to play with it, thats daft really cos you will certainly say yes after 2 minutes !
The differance is instant and stunning. The bonnet stays shut during the install. Totally undetectable too. Go on then ...you know you will !
John [smiley=thumbsup.gif]


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## 55JWB

The other option is the upgrade at Â£499 plus the SPS3 (see page 39) this gives you a few more options and the quoted figures creeps up to 287bhp!!

I have had a play and the standard SPS1 performance program is the same as "low boost level 9" by the time you get to high boost 9 with an advance of timing to make full use of Shell Optimax it really is great fun [smiley=mexicanwave.gif]

At low boost 9 the power comes in at about 2.5k revs and stays all the way to the red. in higher boost it comes in a little later but harder. The real scary thing is 75-100+ mph is fecking quick and licence losing turf  

Now that I've had a play I'll probably turn it back a little, mind you still getting 28.3 mpg urban 

Jason


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## PaulRS3

Too Right Jason. Â ;D

i told you High boost9 was wicked! Â 

Ive been on High boost 9 since i got it on Sat,

after the unscuessfull rolling road trip( haldex kept shifting power about on another s3 and unsettling car on rollers, so we gave up) i set it to 
" standard chipped" low boost 9

and it isnt enough! I had to go back to Highboost 0 , i prefer the kick! and not having to let the car rev out so far to get it.

So assuming that "standard chiopped" is the nearest equivalent to the APR 1.35 chip (so im told by revo..) then APR owners who swap, to Revo and go for SPS3, will have a pleasant supprise and a fair bit more performance available.....

I am pleased as punch. Disapointed i couldnt get rolling roaded, but thats nothing to do with Revo...

My recommendation for those thinking of doing it, Â is, brave the confusing modes, and go for SPS3 its worth every peny of the extra Â£100 for the switch and the modes soon become easy to use...

Ps, Jason ....... my Â MPG matches yours exactly,

and where abouts are those figures 287 bhp? Â you mention found? Â


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## coupe-sport

Paul - which r/r was that ?? - not Power Station ??


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## forgemotorsport

This rolling road run was undertaken by an independant and respected tuner in Norwich.










*Note: The car was set at the Standard (default) boost setting for this program.
The car had the OEM Std intercooler*

If you are willing to have the Forge TT Front Mount Intercooler and / or Exhaust we can put a very wide grin on your face ;D

Forge Revo - tuning solution partners


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## foz01

:

bump


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## coupe-sport

thanks Forge - that must be Mr Atthowe then... he used to look after my RS turbo when i was at uni there... ;D


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## jampott

...or Clive to his friends.....


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## clived

Looks a bit like that "undesireable" peaky torque curve that my pre-FMIC MTM car exhibited - see http://www.rig.org.uk/newsite/TT/ttdyno.htm (with apologies to anyone who wasn't around when Lord V. said my RR plot was crap!), just with less torque 

Looking forward to seeing with FMIC / other boost setting plots - very interesting! For that matter, I'm interested in seeing a RR plot of *my* car with the FMIC - still not got round to it!

*Does anyone fancy another group RR session? Be very interesting to get AMD, Forge Revo, MTM and SupaChips all together at the same place on the same day for a meaningful comparison. *

Clive


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## coupe-sport

Thanks Jampo 

That plot looks a bit strange ? - i know it says the torque is labelled but it looks like the torque curve isnt on there ???


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## jampott

I'd be up for another session at Interpro if anyone is interested? Bristol, so quite easy for people to get to, and last time they did a very pro job with cooling and rollers 

Plus its only about 30 mins to Gloucester, so no excuses for the Revo / Forge guys not to come down and install some test programs.... I bet with 10 stock cars turning up, they'd sell 10 installs


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## coupe-sport

Would be interested in a session at Interpro - very good last time.


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## foz01

> That plot looks a bit strange ? - i know it says the torque is labelled but it looks like the torque curve isnt on there


precisely what i was thinking, looks a bit strange :-/

My torque curve is much flatter [smiley=smash.gif]


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## 55JWB

I'd be keen to attend a RR day Bristol is about 2.5 hours for me though 

Still, got rellies in somerset could do it on the way down or back???

Jason


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## gcp

> I'd be up for another session at Interpro if anyone is interested? Bristol, so quite easy for people to get to, and last time they did a very pro job with cooling and rollers
> 
> Plus its only about 30 mins to Gloucester, so no excuses for the Revo / Forge guys not to come down and install some test programs.... I bet with 10 stock cars turning up, they'd sell 10 installs


I am having Revo installed at InterPro soon. ;D ;D ;D


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## Guest

> That plot looks a bit strange ? - i know it says the torque is labelled but it looks like the torque curve isnt on there Â ???


I assume the thick red line is torque, the blue line flywheel bhp and the thin red line wheel bhp. Thick red and blue cross over at 5252 which is correct for a 4 stroke engine.
if Im right seems that revo moves peak torque up the rev range, compared to the graphs on the link above. 
But I agree it does look strange, am I seeing this incorrectly forge ?


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## coupe-sport

Craft - agreed. but if that is torque shown on there, it looks like the boost has been mapped to the revs - ie rising as the revs rise. I would expect the turbo to come on boost around 2000rpm and be reaching full boost by around 2500 / 2800 - then modulated up to around 5500 or so to produce a relatively flat torque curve... strange


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## PaulRS3

> Paul - which r/r was that ?? - not Power Station ??


coupe-sport...

Mine Was at http://www.g-force-motorsport.co.uk/dyno/dyno.htm one of the most accurate and only one of its type in the UK.

im hoping they will have me back to trial test the S3, and get around the problems we got getting the power down with the Haldex... ...

I also would be up for a r/r. ive been to interpro before....


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## coupe-sport

wow  - thats a R/R and a half...


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## PaulRS3

> wow Â  - thats a R/R and a half...


it is one hell of a set up Â  ;D

4 RS4's, 2 S4s, 3 S3's and a A3 were gobsmacked by the accuracy , it is THE best place, and why im keen to go back and let them test my car to get over the problems we experiened with the Haldex shifting power

It is deadly accurate to a real silly percentage too, (proved in court.) and unbiased to any chip manufacturer...

even the test area shown above was chilled. it was like a freezer...

These guys tune/build Â track and race Porsches for a living. and even have their own fully race spec stripped out Ferrari 360 challege cup car

They know what there doing..

it wasnt a case of "yeah mate i can do a print out Â ..... Â " Â :Â


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## 55JWB

Paul,

Sorry if this has been asked how much do they charge??

Jason


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## PaulRS3

was Â£50 inc vat on the RS246.com day for 2 runs,

However, SiTaS3 and myself got our money back. as they couldnt get a reading with car being so unsettled.....

I am hoping they will have me back to try and get round it, so they can sucessfully test S3 and TT's in 4x4 in future....

S3mon was ok, as he has the forge switchable haldex... and was fine switched to 50/50 4x4


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## Guest

That g-force r/road recently played host to a day of Evos.. the best being Norris Designs Evo 7 at 771bhp and 684lb/ft 

coupe-sport - yeah you are right, its a really weird torque graph, don't know why anyone would map like that ( still assuming Im reading it right ). Its kinda like the Astra Coupe turbo, that has very peaky torque, mainly due to the small turbo, tuned ones get worse.


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## paulb

For reference, this is a plot of my (then) standard TT on the same rollers. The wavy torque curve is due to the haldex making the car squirm on the rollers.










Paul


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## Guest

Squirm aside, thats much more like the torque curve I'd expect....

I've got a mpeg of that evo 7 squirming just cos of power... scary


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## jonah

.


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## TTotal

> .


WOW thats amazing Jonah ! ;D

Can someone explain in english what all these graphs mean and what I should be looking for ? All I know is my TTR goes like stink now thanks to the REVo u/grade but dont know what hp I have ?


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## mark

Guys with SPS3, aren't you afraid you're going to screw up the engine?

I mean, why not just run at full whack the whole time - it's not like you're going to be any faster than a 911? Surely the extra performance isn't just due to running optimax or 97 RON fuel. And anyway, I though the TT engine automatically adjusted to the fuel type.

What I'm getting at is: how do you know what settings to use and why do you think you know better than the built in programs?

Just interested as I'm very keen on this for when my insurance renewal is due. I'm just afraid that I'll kill my engine and then not be able to reset to stock and then where will I be?

Also, how's the fuel economy with the enhanced performance?

Regards,

Mark


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## 55JWB

Mark,

I'm runing high boost 9 with the timing set to 7 which is as high as you want to go without octane boosting additives... it goes like stink can be driven very sedately round town and is getting 28.3 mpg urban.

Revo insist that all settings on the SPS3 are within safety limits of the engine.

They will be offering a CD rom for use with a laptop for the advanced tuning options that will alow settings outside of the cars safety limits, I am assuming for experienced tuners using their car on a track day with race fuel....

Hope this helps

Jason


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## jonah

John going by the graph i think it shows the power drops off at 5k rev,Something i havent noticed ;D power just keeps coming all the way 
lthough ;D i'm running the sps1 progam set to high boost 5 and ignition 7,urs will be identical to mine i would of thought as u also use optimax and have the forge exhaust.
going to have a play next week as jason has kindly leant me his sps3 ;D


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## Stu-Oxfordshire

Guys and gals....I've been watching this thread with interest and want to verify some of these figures...

*What bhp does the SPS3 option offer? *
Did someone say 290 bhp? That worries me as some of the TT's stock parts start to suffer over 290bhp....eg hoses, cats...have any of you who have the REVO remap done driven a chipped S3 or TT before?

Secondly....*has anyone compared an AmD or superchips car to an SPS3 Revo car? * If not, if any of you revo'd people are around the thames valley way in the next few weeks drop me an IM as I'd love to see what all the rave is about.

thirdly.....*is there any point in me changing to a REVO?*


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## Wak

Mr Forge, 
do you have a dyno plot of Revo on its maximum settings to compare against the basic settings in the earlier post.


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## Silversea

Was it not said that the cats are ok up to 300bhp ??

The standard 225 bottom end etc is safe to over 400.... 

What an engine


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## mark

I think that AMD replace the turbo hose with a stronger one when the do a re-map. Is that something we should be concerned about if going for revo? Especially with all the sps3 trickery?

-Mark


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## foz01

:

Well its PE aint it


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## foz01

:

bump


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## Guest

Foz : what chip is that ? looks to be a pretty good smooth graph to me.



> Was it not said that the cats are ok up to 300bhp ??
> 
> The standard 225 bottom end etc is safe to over 400....


Is it ? I very much doubt it. I'd be very worried about rods at that sort of power. A steel crank wouldn't be a bad idea either. Pistons would be long gone for stronger ones.


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## coupe-sport

Thats S*perchips.

I know they get a lot of stick (and some well deserved) but Steve Fitzs old Roadster used a S*uperchip and the torque is the best ive seen on a TT, its increased nicely but also held really well.

http://www.rig.org.uk/newsite/TT/ttdyno.htm

rgds


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## foz01

Yep thats suparchips

Got it RR'd again last year after fitting a Milltek and the power dropped to 253bhp :'(

Different roling road different da ybut the haldex kept shutting it down and ended up running it in front wheel drive 

One thing to remeber here the revo chip has one, and only one advantage over the others in its stealth install, how good the actual map is yet to be seen, the only power graphs looked decidedly strange, as did the boost curve. I think lots of people are getting carried away with this thread and the new "wonder" chip.

bet Revo and Forge are loving it mind  ;D


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## jonah

> I think that AMD replace the turbo hose with a stronger one when the do a re-map. Is that something we should be concerned about if going for revo? Especially with all the sps3 trickery?


this was a concern when i had mine remapped, russel had a look and said it was ok, they changed the design on newer TT's ,easy way to see is stick ur hand down by the hose and see if u can push it in with ur fingers ,older ones u were able to ,newer ones u cant.


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