# Cam Belt gone - any idea what the damage will be?



## Andyman (May 6, 2002)

Hello everyone,

I'm not having a good day. I've just had the TT recovered back to the dealer by the AA after the cam belt broke at about 40-45mph. I can't believe its happened because the car has only done 39k miles. Unbelievable! I have an AA warranty so I have my fingers crossed that it will cover the damage but does anyone know what the damage might be? I have a nasty feeling that its going to mean a total rebuild (bend valves etc).

Surely a cam belt failure at 39k miles can't be 'normal'.... can it?

Andy.


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## JayGemson (Jun 8, 2004)

Andyman, gutted for you. The service schedule says 80,000 miles for a timing belt change and you certainly wouldn't expect a failure after 39k :? Think you've broken the record for the earliest failure now.

Likely to be terminal (hello mr pistons, meet 20 valves) so get praying to the warranty gods. At least when it gets sorted you'll have a zero-miled engine


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## '][''][' (May 20, 2005)

I hope everything works out OK for you.

Mark


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## Wak (May 6, 2002)

ouch Andy, 
its not a cheap job, get AmD to deal with the warranty company hopefully it will be ok, 3k-4k is the kind of figure that it may cost.

dealer cost may be more.


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## upiker2005 (Apr 9, 2005)

Oh M8 that's so sad I'm sorry. Fingers crossed on the warranty thing!


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

I had a Cavalier GSI 2000 have a cam belt go (actually tensioner went slack) at about the same speed - result 16 bent valves. Pistons were OK however and it just needed a reconditioned cylinder head.

Have you had any work on the engine done like a new water pump? That's what did it for me. The garage coughed up without a fuss luckily. Belts don't usually fail in themselves - it's usually that they've been put on too tight or something else like a pulley, tensioner, or something fell off and got in the way.

I'd be gutted if it happened to my TT as I don't have a warranty.... Hmmm... I don't like elastic band engines. Not nice.


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## mighTy Tee (Jul 10, 2002)

Really feel for you Andy. 39k seems so low esp as they say the cam belt has a life circa 100k, I don't suppose Audi are interested now you car is is 3 years old.

Hope it gets fixed soon.


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## nolive (Aug 5, 2004)

Sorry to hear that andy :?

as per the belt itself, there's always the risk that you get a part from a faulty batch (problem in the manufacturing process like contamination, wrong material etc..) 

I used to work for CONTINENTAL, in the cam belt design department, who is the supplier of this belt and the way the design has been validated is still a BIG question mark for me :x 
80Kmiles service interval with the technology we had in the mid90s is a non sense 

to be on the safe side, I would now recommend not to exceed 60Kmiles (or five years)before you do the change of the WHOLE primary drive (belt, tensioner, water pump, idler)

Sorry again for you m8 but as it is an engine component failure, the AA will pay for the repair. sure


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## Andyman (May 6, 2002)

Thanks guys. That pretty much confirms my suspicions over the valves and pistons meeting. I'm expecting it to need quite a rebuild.

I think 39k miles is very unusual. The car has been serviced to the schedule by my dealer and there's 2.5k miles showing on the DIS until the next service. I am suspicious that John-H might be right. A couple of years ago I had a new timing chain tensioner fitted. You have to remove the cam belt to do this job so its possible that its been re-tensioned it incorrectly.

I've read through my AA warranty policy and I'm fairly hopeful that its going to be covered. The policy covers all engine components with just a few minor exceptions such as oil seals and gaskets. I'll confirm with them tomorrow morning but if it is covered then I'll leave it with the dealer to fix. Otherwise I'll probably take Wak's advice and have AMD cost the work.

I really can't believe how much this car is costing me to run right now. Just a month ago I had a new clutch and flywheel at the cost of Â£1600. Also my suspension is creaking like crazy and I'm replacing every bush conceivable in order to track it.

Thanks for the support.

Andy.


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## nolive (Aug 5, 2004)

Andyman said:


> Thanks guys. That pretty much confirms my suspicions over the valves and pistons meeting. I'm expecting it to need quite a rebuild.
> 
> I think 39k miles is very unusual. The car has been serviced to the schedule by my dealer and there's 2.5k miles showing on the DIS until the next service. I am suspicious that John-H might be right. A couple of years ago I had a new timing chain tensioner fitted. You have to remove the cam belt to do this job so its possible that its been re-tensioned it incorrectly.
> 
> ...


As I said in the thread above, the AA will pay for the fix as they did for my WP when it died (at 20Kmiles :evil: ) sure.

as per the root cause of the cam belt failure, the primary drive is quite a tricky system and again, a faulty belt might explain the situation you're experiencing.

I know it can be a pain to have the car in a garage rather than driving it(I've quite paid my dues so far  ) but it's quite rewarding when it's back 

keep the faith


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## Andyman (May 6, 2002)

nolive said:


> As I said in the thread above, the AA will pay for the fix as they did for my WP when it died (at 20Kmiles :evil: ) sure.


Excellent. Thats very reassuring.

Thanks very much.

Andy.


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## nolive (Aug 5, 2004)

Andyman said:


> nolive said:
> 
> 
> > As I said in the thread above, the AA will pay for the fix as they did for my WP when it died (at 20Kmiles :evil: ) sure.
> ...


no problem.

if they are reluctant, insist on the fact that the belt is specified at a 80Kmiles serviceable item and that you couldn't anticipate the failure whatsoever occuring at 39K


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## Wak (May 6, 2002)

Andyman said:


> nolive said:
> 
> 
> > As I said in the thread above, the AA will pay for the fix as they did for my WP when it died (at 20Kmiles :evil: ) sure.
> ...


good point there in if its getting done you may as well pay the parts/labour for the water pump, its not worth getting back and having to do it again if the pump should go!


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## Wak (May 6, 2002)

also , dont know if this will work but if you pay a portion to the job, e.g. Â£1 then you should get a receipt and 2 years warranty on the job!

it worked like this with audi but check when its repaired how you can be covered on these parts for longer.


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## nolive (Aug 5, 2004)

Wak said:


> also , dont know if this will work but if you pay a portion to the job, e.g. Â£1 then you should get a receipt and 2 years warranty on the job!
> 
> it worked like this with audi but check when its repaired how you can be covered on these parts for longer.


yep I concur with that :wink:

wak, you've got PM. cheers


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## Andyman (May 6, 2002)

Excellent, thanks, thats a good plan.

I didn't realise there was a problem with water pumps on the TT. But I guess if its a cheap part then its worth foregoing the labour cost and having it done whilst its apart.

I'll keep you updated.

Andy.


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## Wak (May 6, 2002)

it could happen!









This was nolive's at 20k :?


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## oettinger1.8T (Feb 3, 2004)

Just got mine back today,

Mine snaped on the m25 a couple of weeks back, it bent all 20 valves!!!!!
it cost me Â£1549 everything included! not a bad price if i say so myself!

I got it done at Vag Tech

www.vagtech.co.uk

Hope you get it sorted soon mate

Mike


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## Andyman (May 6, 2002)

AA Warranty have confirmed they'll pay  I'm just waiting for Southampton Audi to let me know when they can get it in the workshop.

Thanks for all your advice.

Andy.


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## YELLOW_TT (Feb 25, 2004)

Andyman said:


> AA Warranty have confirmed they'll pay  I'm just waiting for Southampton Audi to let me know when they can get it in the workshop.
> 
> Thanks for all your advice.
> 
> Andy.


nice one better that the last aa warranty cam belt thread


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## Andyman (May 6, 2002)

Missed that one. What was the outcome there?


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## TTotal (Aug 12, 2002)

Pleased for you Andy, mine is booked in for all this and more at AMD mid September, way before the recommended mileage limit "Just in case" :?

Hope you are at the end of your run of probs mate.

J


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## Andyman (May 6, 2002)

TTotal said:


> Hope you are at the end of your run of probs mate.


I'm not so sure about that. Cycling to work this morning through the forest I managed to puncture an 'un-punctureable' inner tube. No tyre levers and I had to change it with a house key and a blood donor card!



Andy


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## TTotal (Aug 12, 2002)

Remind me not to travel with you 

Suppose whilst walking to work tomorrow you will trip on a paving stone and graze your knee?

Find a 4 leaf clover - QUICKLY!


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

Nice to hear about a warranty paying out for a change. Glad you've getting it sorted.


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## ag (Sep 12, 2002)

My manual specifies a cam belt change at 115000 miles and gives no time limit!


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## nolive (Aug 5, 2004)

Andyman said:


> AA Warranty have confirmed they'll pay  I'm just waiting for Southampton Audi to let me know when they can get it in the workshop.
> 
> Thanks for all your advice.
> 
> Andy.


I told you not to worry 

enjoy you new engine once it's sorted then


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## Wak (May 6, 2002)

ag said:


> My manual specifies a cam belt change at 115000 miles and gives no time limit!


Is there an "*" next to it? go and read the notes!


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## YELLOW_TT (Feb 25, 2004)

Andyman said:


> Missed that one. What was the outcome there?


aa would not pay out as the car had a forge dv and samco induction hose what a load of crap :evil:


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## Andyman (May 6, 2002)

Ahhh.... hope that won't be a problem then. I have a Forge Stealth Dump Valve.

I'd like to hear the argument as to how that could break a cam belt.

Andy.


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## TTotal (Aug 12, 2002)

Didnt he also have his calipers painted 

OMG that is really serious modding!


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## Andyman (May 6, 2002)

Yes I've painted my calipers too. Obvious cause of the cam belt failure right there! :roll:

Andy.


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## TTotal (Aug 12, 2002)

Well I would remove that post and also the paint just in case... :?


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## ag (Sep 12, 2002)

Wak said:


> ag said:
> 
> 
> > My manual specifies a cam belt change at 115000 miles and gives no time limit!
> ...


Nope, no asterisk, no additions, no notes, no nothing. My service schedule "englisch 6.99" (201.563.8S0.20) states "Toothed belt for camshaft drive replaced (models with 5-valves-per-cylinder, 4-cylinder petrol engines only) @ 180,000km (115,000 miles) in addition to service.

This may have changed since, but mine is 115k! Pretty scary...


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## Wak (May 6, 2002)

ag said:


> Wak said:
> 
> 
> > ag said:
> ...


sorry its not an asterisk but a little 1.

basically says consult your dealer but there is nothing to say they could make up any limit and nothing to warrant the life of the part up to the dealer recommendation.
:?


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## ag (Sep 12, 2002)

WAK, that is a later manual! Mine is an '00 model with an 06.99 manual. There is no mention of refering to the dealer! My GF's '03 A4 has the same manual as yours and has a 1) in superscript. Mine doesn't! :?


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## Andyman (May 6, 2002)

Well its been stripped down by the dealer and confirmed 17 bent valves.

The only problem for me now is proving the root cause of the failure for warranty purposes. The belt failed because something has worn away half of its width. However they can find no evidence of what it has rubbed on. There's loads of burnt belt debris lying around but no wear marks on anything. However there is a section of the cam belt cover missing. I guess this could be for one of two reasons, the belt broke and smashed the cover or the cover has been broken for a while and something got inside and rubbed the belt.

Its in the hands of the AA Warranty Services guys now. They're talking to the garage so I expect they'll want to arrange an independent inspection.

Andy.


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## sico (Feb 6, 2003)

Andyman said:


> Well its been stripped down by the dealer and confirmed 17 bent valves.
> 
> The only problem for me now is proving the root cause of the failure for warranty purposes. The belt failed because something has worn away half of its width. However they can find no evidence of what it has rubbed on. There's loads of burnt belt debris lying around but no wear marks on anything. However there is a section of the cam belt cover missing. I guess this could be for one of two reasons, the belt broke and smashed the cover or the cover has been broken for a while and something got inside and rubbed the belt.
> 
> ...


Interesting to see the cause! I wish others had also observed. It sounds like the fault would not have been rectified even if the belt had of been newer!

Did you get a smell of rubber the?

Please let us know what happens.

I wonder if you can visually check these belts, is it possible to unclip the cover?


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## Private Prozac (Jul 7, 2003)

Andyman - AA Waranty refused my claim due to an AMD dump valve and Samco hoses. These were considered modifications to the manufacturers standard OEM parts and therefore invalidated the Warranty.

Cost me Â£4200 for a replacement engine due to oil pressure failure! :? Caused by hoses and a DV ......hmmm, go figure!

Hope you don't get the same Inspector that came to Basingstoke.


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## Andyman (May 6, 2002)

The policy wording of the exceptions to cover excludes "Repairs required because of alteration or modification from the manufactures specification". I'm quite sure I'll be safe there because I can't see any possible way a different dump valve could wear away a cam belt. :roll:

Andy.


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## sico (Feb 6, 2003)

Wak said:


> ag said:
> 
> 
> > Wak said:
> ...


I dont beleive this would be an acceptable clause for Audi to dismiss any cambelt issues. Contractually it is not an acceptable disclaimer.


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## Private Prozac (Jul 7, 2003)

Andyman said:


> The policy wording of the exceptions to cover excludes "Repairs required because of alteration or modification from the manufactures specification". I'm quite sure I'll be safe there because I can't see any possible way a different dump valve could wear away a cam belt. :roll:
> 
> Andy.


That's not the point. They refused mine because of 'Modifications to the Manufacturers standard items'. They didn't have to prove that it was or wasn't connected to the fault. The fact that these items existed invalidated the cover!


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## Andyman (May 6, 2002)

My policy has no such statement. It only excludes repairs needed *because* of alteration or modification from the manufactures specification. The existence of non-OEM parts is not disclaimed.

Its like saying that a Kwik-fit exhaust has broken the OEM exhaust mount. Well obviously the exhaust mount isn't going to be covered. But that doesn't stop the headlights from being covered.

Andy.


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## sico (Feb 6, 2003)

Some are stupid i.e wont let someone claim because their calipers where painted red!

However dont forget that cars are tested by manufacturers and the associated parts to make sure all the tollerances are ok etc etc

If you mod the car then it could cause issues with the life of components within the car, especially if you up the BHP. Its hard to prove either way without rigorous testing.

So dont be to hard on these warranty companys they have to cover themselves.

My TT will remain standard spec with FASH for this reason.


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## steved (May 29, 2005)

I've just rebuilt an Adr head with Brand new valves if this is any help before i put it on Ebay.


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## Andyman (May 6, 2002)

Well AA warranty have managed to weasel their way out of it, but not because of mods. They say that their assessor found a hole in the engine under-tray where the car has bottomed out on something and this cause road debris to get through to the engine compartment and damage the cam belt cover. This in turn exposed the cam belt which was then damaged by further road debris.

The problem is that there isn't enough evidence for me to disprove that theory any more than they can prove it.

I've been back and forth calling the AA and Audi all morning trying to disprove without any luck what so ever. I certainly won't be bothering with AA Warranty Services again. They're a total waste of time.

The total bill is Â£2650 for a new head.

Regards,
Unhappy Andy.


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## YELLOW_TT (Feb 25, 2004)

feel for you m8 another bad mark for aa warrantys


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## Wak (May 6, 2002)

Unbelievable...

contact Watchdog :evil:

WTF there are already vent holes in the undertray and some cars dont even have an undertray , f'kin bollocks.

absolutely outrageous! the cam belt is covered independantly anyway! :evil:


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## Andyman (May 6, 2002)

I've asked for the garage to save the broken cam belt cover for me. I'm hoping it might provide an indication of the direction of impact that broke it. The warranty company says its been damaged by road debris. I think its as likely that the flailing cam belt could have broken it outward during the failure.

I've authorised the repairs myself and will have to pursue the claim in the slightly longer term. Writing to AA warranty will be the first thing but given the earlier discussion on the phone quite pointless I suspect. I guess trading standards or watchdog are other options.

Andy.


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## Andyman (May 6, 2002)

Wak said:


> f'kin bollocks


Yup, I agree. Its the most fictitious assessment I could imagine.

Andy.


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## Private Prozac (Jul 7, 2003)

Don't like to say 'I told you so' but ......

I know it's not mod related but it would appear that, now they discontinued the Warranty side of things, the pot has run dry and they will use anything to get out of paying for major claims.

That's now 2 of us that have been shafted by the AA to the tune of 7 grand between us. I'm not taking it lying down and have a report from the Dealer and AMD to prove their theory incorrect.


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## Andyman (May 6, 2002)

A copy of the Report if you're interested.

You're quite right; they're looking for any way out of paying Â£2.5k.... but then so am I. I suspect it all hinges on proving that the cam belt cover hasn't done its job. It is designed specifically to keep foreign objects out of the cam belt. If a foreign object has managed to puncture it then maybe it is faulty. :?

Andy.


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## Andyman (May 6, 2002)

I'm a bit more encouraged this morning after having a look over my car myself. The section of cam belt cover that's missing is only about 1 inch square and along way towards the top of the engine so it would seem very unlikely that road debris could impact it. The best bit is looking at the broken piece its quite obvious that the break has happened from the inside out rather that being impacted in. The breaks are clearly bent out and the edges clean which means it must have happened when the belt actually failed.

The damage to the under tray that they mentioned is absolutely nothing. Its obviously cracked where I've bottomed on something but not actually punctured.

I took a load of photos and also kept the damaged parts. I think I have a fairly strong argument so I should put something in writing arguing their assessment.

Additionally I noted a couple of things of interest which I doubt would have had anything to do with it but looked a bit dodgy. First the water pump was really tight and second number one piston was absolutely covered in carbon whereas 2, 3 and 4 were perfectly clean. I can't see that the water pump could have affected the cam belt at all because the teeth of the belt were in perfect condition. It was the back of the belt that had worn.

Andy.


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## hemTT (Oct 12, 2004)

Warranty companies are useless. Big waste of cash, theyll pay out on smaller things like MAF's, but the reason why we all get them is for major faults arising such as this.

They will do everything in thier power not to pay out.

Waranty Direct are the worst.

I feel for you mate, hope you get it sorted.


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## Pietvg (Jan 13, 2005)

This "report" all sounds highly speculative. You don't know what the AA instructed this engineer to do but there is no indication that he is at all impartial - AA might well be his biggest client and he is engaged to troubleshoot problem claims. There does not appear to be any detailed consideration of what happened and there are a lot of jumps of logic in getting to his conclusion.

I would certainly threaten to sue the AA at the end of the day it is there responsibility to show that the failed cambelt comes within one of their policy exceptions not the other way round. In addition where did you but your TT - if it was from this dealer you could point the finger at him on the basis of this report for selling you a car with a defective cambelt cover.

Personally, in that situation, I would sue both (which you can do in the same proceedings) and let them squabble it out. In a small claims court (now the small claims track) you will find the judges to be very sympathetic to your predicament (probably bcs. they've been shafted by insurers as well !).


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## sico (Feb 6, 2003)

If damage was caused by a foreign object then surley your standard car insurance would cover the costs?


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## Andyman (May 6, 2002)

I'm also pursuing the Insurance route which may well cover damage caused by road debris. I've opened a claim with them but out of principle I honestly believe this should be covered by my warranty since I just can't see this damage being caused by stray road debris.

Some photos from my inspection this morning:










Worn groove on pulley:









Back of the belt worn through:









Teeth in good condition:









The damaged area of the cam belt cover highlighted:









Damaged cam cover clearly broken outwards:









Very slight damage on under tray:

















Notice one heavily carboned piston. :?: 









Andy.


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## sico (Feb 6, 2003)

Just doesnt add up. Somthing flys through two peices of ABS plastic and sheers the actaul cog?

Lets say a stone gets in or some projectile (very unlikley) how the hell did it sheer that cog?

Doesnt add up.

More likley something shot out, it would be going ad speed so that would add up, but what?

The cracks in the plastic if investigated should show which way the object went (in or out).

I see you had you cam chain tensioner changed not so long ago? Was this deffo the cam chain or the timing belt?


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

The break looks like inside out on the plastic cover - could this not have happened as the belt broke? i know nothing about engines so could be talking utter rubbish.


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## JayGemson (Jun 8, 2004)

Andyman, great pictures 8)

I'm with you all the way here. I also hold an AA warranty so will be watching this thread very closely.

From the photos it's clear to me that the damage to the cover is consistent with being broken inside-out. Seeing as you have a belt running very close to it at speed I would say that the cause of the damage is the belt failure itself. Damage to the undertray is superficial and it still looks like it's able to do it's job. Besides, I've run and worked on loads of cars that don't have undertrays and you certainly shouldn't rely on them to stop foreign objects entering the engine imo.

As for the wear on that pulley, that does look strange. Any takers on an explanation for that?


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## sico (Feb 6, 2003)

JayGemson said:


> Andyman, great pictures 8)
> 
> I'm with you all the way here. I also hold an AA warranty so will be watching this thread very closely.
> 
> ...


The wear certainly looks like it would have happened over a period of time. I cant see that happening quickly, I mean thats hard metal!


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## jonno (May 7, 2002)

Andy
Feel for you on this stuff.

Nicely taken photos too.
Is there any merit in getting your own engineers report on the failure.
I agree the plastic cover and pulley damage are curious.

Might even be worth phoning/email pics to AMD for their 2p?
Good luck.


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## Andyman (May 6, 2002)

Thanks for your support. It sounds like my theory about how the cam belt cover was broken is shared by a few of you guys too. I've opened a claim with my motor insurance company (Elephant) on the basis that the damage was caused by hitting road debris. Personally I don't subscribe to this theory but the way I see it I can't lose. If they pay out then all I'll have to pay in my excess. If they don't then their argument lends further weight to my belief that it should be covered by the AA mechanical breakdown cover. Elephant are sending out one of their inspectors tomorrow so we'll see what they say. If their report states that its mechanical breakdown then I have a fair bit of evidence to fight AA Warranty with.



sico said:


> I see you had you cam chain tensioner changed not so long ago? Was this deffo the cam chain or the timing belt?


Definitely the timing chain tensioner. Audi also tell me that there would be no need to tamper with the cam belt to do this job.



Toshiba said:


> The break looks like inside out on the plastic cover - could this not have happened as the belt broke?


This is my theory too. The broken edge has 'hinged' on the outer edge indicating that it was bent outwards before breaking off.



sico said:


> The wear certainly looks like it would have happened over a period of time. I cant see that happening quickly, I mean thats hard metal!


I Agree, thats a hardened steel pulley and it looks to me like long-term abrasive damage rather than quick impact damage.



jonno said:


> Nicely taken photos too.
> Is there any merit in getting your own engineers report on the failure.
> I agree the plastic cover and pulley damage are curious.


Thanks. Yeah, I've been considering having a report done. I think I'll see what Elephant's 'independent' report says. If favourable it might serve my purposes. I've spoken to AMD and they were confused too and really unable to offer an explanation but this was before I had the photos. I think I'll email them, thanks for the tip.

Andy.


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## IanWest (May 7, 2002)

I had a report done by an engineer who was recommended to me by a Police accident investigator, they used to work closely with him on fatal accidents, when the airbag went off on my S3. He cost Â£250 plus VAT and was worth every penny. He actually diagnosed the fault as Audi thought it was something else. I can give you his details if you like.


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## Andyman (May 6, 2002)

Yes please. It would probably be worth having someone that creditable to give a report should everything else fail.

Thanks,
Andy.


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## mercedes_SLK (Feb 9, 2004)

Sorry to hear about your troubles chap...

Thought I should also add to this thread as my car glided slowly to a stop on riday evening. Car was eventually recovered to Peterborough audi.

Have today spoken to them, they confirm that the Cam belt has indeed gone and that the car requires a NEW ENGINE!

I am covered by Warranty Direct who are sending an engineer to assess the damage at some point. Having read this thread it would appear i should prepare myself for some sort of battle with them!!

At the time of the breakdown I was only travelling at a max of 30mph in 3rd gear

For the thread's information, The car has covered a 62500 miles!!!

Am going down to Peterborough tomorrow to get some photo's hopefully

Would be interesting to see what audi's view would be on sooo many TT Cambelt failings around the 60k mark when the service schedule clearly states the belt requires no attention until 115000 miles?

Will keep you all informed as well as following the results from this failure

Regards

peTTe


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## Andyman (May 6, 2002)

Iâ€™ve just spoken to Scott at AMD who has raised some really good points. He was quite suspicious of the water pump and wonders if the bearings could be going. He also suggested a possible link to the carbon on the first cylinder because the temperature could be off. Scott has offered to send an engineer down to do a full assessment and provide a report which I think will probably provide the most creditable evidence I have. Many thanks to Scott.

Andy.


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## boggie (May 8, 2002)

mercedes_SLK said:


> I am covered by Warranty Direct who are sending an engineer to assess the damage at some point.


Oh Bugger!


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## jonno (May 7, 2002)

Andyman said:


> Iâ€™ve just spoken to Scott at AMD who has raised some really good points. He was quite suspicious of the water pump and wonders if the bearings could be going. He also suggested a possible link to the carbon on the first cylinder because the temperature could be off. Scott has offered to send an engineer down to do a full assessment and provide a report which I think will probably provide the most creditable evidence I have. Many thanks to Scott.
> 
> Andy.


At last! sounds like something is going right for you Andy.
Well done AMD!


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## mercedes_SLK (Feb 9, 2004)

Andy,

would be very interested in possibly employing the services of AMD should my claim run into any bother

Andy, would you kindly send me a pm of his details

Regards

peTTe


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## Andyman (May 6, 2002)

www.auto-amd.com


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## Andyman (May 6, 2002)

mercedes_SLK said:


> Sorry to hear about your troubles chap...
> 
> Thought I should also add to this thread as my car glided slowly to a stop on riday evening. Car was eventually recovered to Peterborough audi.
> 
> ...


peTTe,

Sorry to hear about your troubles. I hope you find things a bit smoother than I have. We pay for these policies to give ourselves piece of mind but more often than not they seem to provide endless stress. I guess if it were too easy to claim then there'd be more claims and we'd be bitching about the high premiums :? . Best of luck and keep us up to date.

Best regards,
Andy.


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## LisDexic (Jun 17, 2005)

SAME THING HAPPENED TO ME<, but DONT go to a dealership!!!!!!!
yes, you have bent valves, so what?! it is quite easy to take the head off, to tell you the truth. i took mine off, and took the cams off the head... i gave a machine shop my head to replace the valves. surprisingly it only cost $460 US dollars... then you can buy new belt! (cheap) but it is reccomended to purchase and install water pump/ thermostat/ tensioner pulley also. I went ahead and replaced them all. and even my accessories belt/ tensioner. i got the full kit that comes with everything i need from www.deiselgeek.com .. people sell these kits in packages, and i know you can find them... but with the head gasket kit, timing/accessories belt package, and head/valves work , it cost approx $1050.00 US dollars

but you see, compared to the dealership, that SAVED ME OVER $4,000.00!!!!!!!!!!! so put it this way, your car cant run, so try and fix it the cheap way yourself, lets say SOMEHOW you have trouble and can't do it, get it towed to the dealership, and you already have the parts to replace it, so it would cost less. trust me, it seems scary, but the hardest thing to do is time the car,LOL! and a lot of people know how to do that, if you dont, call a friend over that knows how!

by the way, want to know what i did with all that extra money?! since i origionaly had a k03 in my 180 TT Quattro, I got a k04, GIAC software to run it, VERY high flow turbo manifold, samco turbo inlet hose, 4 bar FPR, INJEN cold air intake, and custom 3 inch turbo back exhaust... i am now looking at a nice intercooler and a powergasket for my intake manifold! dealership = liars and idiots / no dealership = $$$, going fast cause you can afford aftermarket parts, string cheese to last a lifetime, a pet turtle, a smile on your face, a happier TT, and most importantly...some new sunglasses to cruise the town in! no dealeship = the way to go! later gator! -Jason Smith


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## boggie (May 8, 2002)

I did this on a 16V Cavelier in a pub car park one summer. Vauxhall wanted just over a grand to recover it and repair. Cost to me was around Â£100 for 4 valves and a new belt. Took about 4 hours and had a nice pub lunch too!  
Of course the Chav engine was relatively simple but the theory is the same. However you would need to know a bit about engines etc. I had built a few rally cars and a kit car so it was not too much of a challenge. However the 1.8T TT engine is a different story and space to work is limited.


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## mercedes_SLK (Feb 9, 2004)

Wak,

I thought I would attach a scan of my Service book. From your post a few pages back regarding a small number (1) It would appear that the Service books are indeed different for some reason. Could it be that Audi realised that there may be a problem with the Belts?

Any way, here is a scan of my book along with hopefully some pics of the Engine block showing the damage to the pistons
http://www.midnightphotos.co.uk/userima ... 9/2399.jpg

For anybodys information Peterborough audi and a nice chap called Tom have been magnificant... Warranty surveyor has been out to view the damage and after what looks like trying to throw some excuses concerning the damage, it looks like he has gone away happy. Fingers crossed should have the authority to commence the work by Monday

How the hell do you upload photo's or images???[img]http://www.midnightphotos.co.uk/userimages/full/5/2395.jpg
[URL=http://www.midnightphotos.co.uk/userimages/full/5/2396.jpg]http://www.midnightphotos.co.uk/userima ... 5/2396.jpg[/URL]
[URL=http://www.midnightphotos.co.uk/userimages/full/14/2397.jpg]http://www.midnightphotos.co.uk/userima ... 4/2397.jpg[/URL]
[URL=http://www.midnightphotos.co.uk/userimages/full/12/2398.jpg]http://www.midnightphotos.co.uk/userima ... 2/2398.jpg[/URL]


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## mercedes_SLK (Feb 9, 2004)

Can anybody help with the posting of files please?

Regards

peTTe


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## KenTT (Feb 20, 2005)

Hi Pette
If it's pics you want to post they will have to be hosted first, try this site I use them and it's free: http://www.midnightphotos.co.uk/

Then in your post window put your file details like this:


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## mercedes_SLK (Feb 9, 2004)

Ken,

thanks for the help with posting photo's...

I did try it the way you said, but the images were MASSIVE!!!

how do you size them correctly???

Cheers

peTTe


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## aidb (Mar 19, 2003)

Here ya go PeTTe. :wink:



mercedes_SLK said:


> Wak,
> 
> I thought I would attach a scan of my Service book. From your post a few pages back regarding a small number (1) It would appear that the Service books are indeed different for some reason. Could it be that Audi realised that there may be a problem with the Belts?
> 
> ...


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## mercedes_SLK (Feb 9, 2004)

Aidb,

Cheers for that

Bloody technology!!!!

peTTe


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## Andyman (May 6, 2002)

My pistons showed exactly the same marking from colliding with the valves. Does anyone know if this could provide any long-term problems? Should the pistons ideally be replaced too? I just wonder if Iâ€™m going to get another 40k miles down the road and have a piston fail on me if I don't.

Andy.


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## g-boy (Jun 3, 2005)

Andyman said:


> Thanks guys. That pretty much confirms my suspicions over the valves and pistons meeting. I'm expecting it to need quite a rebuild.
> 
> I think 39k miles is very unusual. The car has been serviced to the schedule by my dealer and there's 2.5k miles showing on the DIS until the next service. I am suspicious that John-H might be right. A couple of years ago I had a new timing chain tensioner fitted. You have to remove the cam belt to do this job so its possible that its been re-tensioned it incorrectly.
> 
> ...


bit new to all this driving malarky (just passed my test and got a TT ...woo!)

but how and why do you have AA warranty?, was that included when you bought the car? is there a mileage your covered until? etc etc


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## Andyman (May 6, 2002)

The car came with 3 years Audi warranty which expired last September. I took out the AA warranty myself after this.

I've just had some good news though. My insurance company sent out their assessor on Friday who has confirmed that the damage was caused by road debris collision and that they will pay for the damage. To say I'm surprised is an understatement but who am I to argue. :roll: Its going to cost my Â£350 excess only. 

Andy.


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## Kell (May 28, 2002)

A good result in the end.

If a little surprising.

It's interesting though as you could apply the same logic to having the front end resprayed to get rid of stonechips.


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## planman (Sep 15, 2002)

Had mine go about 4 months ago whilst waiting to go in for a service :x . Car had done 60k and I was going about 70mph when it just died. Only four valves were damaged and got away with the head being refurbished.
Cost, including the service and vat was just over 2K  [smiley=thumbsup.gif] .

Had the work done at Country vehicles at Dead Mans Cross, just outside Shefford beds. They are an approved Bosch centre and have always done me proud, Speak to Martin.


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## mercedes_SLK (Feb 9, 2004)

Andy,

glad you had a result with your belt problem

If your pistons are marked, then you will also require a new engine!

Piston crowns should be smooth

ANY engineer worth his salt should have told you this already though....chase it if they have not mentioned it already

Regards

peTTe


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## ag (Sep 12, 2002)

The damage to those pistons will probably cause localised hot spots. This will lead to pre-ignition and probably put holes in the pistons. The shock of hitting the valves may also have caused damage to the gudgeon pins and possibly the conrods. Overall a new short engine is probably required. I would not be happy with just a recon head as there will be no warranty, implied or offered, on the bottom end!


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## Andyman (May 6, 2002)

I've spoken to the Audi workshop manager and Scott at AMD and both say that there would be no need to replace the bottom end after this type of failure. They both say that the 20v bottom end is virtually bullet proof so these marks won't make any difference. The workshop manager says they will clean up the piston surface though. They'll take off any surface roughness with emery paper and make sure all carbon is cleaned away.

Andy.


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## mercedes_SLK (Feb 9, 2004)

Andy,

That comes as a complete surprise to me!

It is naturally your choice, but if i were you I would insist on it being replaced

High temperature items such as pistons are manufactured to very close tolerances, even down to the shape / profile being designed to aid with the gase passage both into the cylinder and also exiting into the exhaust system

Naturally the material is also designed to withstand extremes of pressure / temperatures...ANY material remaoved with emery paper will have an effect of the material properties

I would do a bit of digging on this and maybe canvass others inputs...but for me it would be out of the question of having the same block / pistons

Imagine if you had a pistn failure (god forbid) It was on your say so that they used the same pistons

Regards

peTTe


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## Andyman (May 6, 2002)

Well after 4 weeks off the road I finally have the TT back. I picked it up this afternoon and got that grin back straight away  100 yards from the dealer I got a wave from a guy in a red TTC. 8)

Only two minor problems. The alarm constantly sounds and they've obviously put the engine cover on the ground upside down and scratched the lettering off it. Apart form that everything looks great and the engine feels beautifully tight again.

Andy.


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## jonno (May 7, 2002)

Andyman said:


> Only two minor problems. The alarm constantly sounds and they've obviously put the engine cover on the ground upside down and scratched the lettering off it. Apart form that everything looks great and the engine feels beautifully tight again.
> 
> Andy.


Happy for you Andy!
Does it actually have to be run-in again? Did you get new piston(s) in the end or just replacement valves?


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## YELLOW_TT (Feb 25, 2004)

glad to hear your back on the road and got a result getting it fixed


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## Andyman (May 6, 2002)

Thanks guys.

There shouldn't be any need for any running-in although I have noticed that on idle the top end does seem a little noisier than before. Maybe it does need a few miles to bed in and quieten down.

In the end just the top end was replaced. I had several discussions with Audi, AMD and the independent insurance assessors and all agreed that there was no need to touch the bottom end.

I had a good drive down to see mighTy Tee (Richard) for coffee last night and everything seems to be running great. It certainly seems a bit tighter than before and generally a bit more like a new car.

After charging the battery over night it seems to have solved the alarm problem too.

Andy.


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

Regarding piston valve collision damage, there is a slight issue on any special coating the pistons may have had being removed in any subsequent smoothing operation employed to fix it. Usually this makes for a more rapid build up of carbon deposits on the exposed alloy in that spot - especially if it is not smooth. Without looking it up, those pistons look like they may be ceramic coated ones.

It would obviously be better to replace the pistons in a perfect world - but it will not cause any immediate harm not to do so. Carbon build up will be slow over the life of the engine. Some piston designs have machined cut outs for valve head clearance and these, due to their sharp corners, build up carbon even on a coated piston. It's far better to have a smooth piston and the Audi design seems good in that respect. As long as they re-make it smooth it should be ok.

Regarding damage to the gudgeon pins and con rods, I think it unlikely. The dynamic accellerating forces on a piston at high revs can be several tons and that's spread over the large surface area of the oiled bearing surfaces. To bend a valve you need far less force and the marks you see are due to that force being concentrated in a small area from a hard sharp edged valve on a soft metal piston crown with no oil and pleanty of repeated friction collisions as the egnine spins to a halt. I've seen a mashed up piston where the valve head had fallen off and clattered about the combustion chamber. It needed a new piston but the con rod was fine. If you had bent a con rod you'd not have a smooth running engine once running again.


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