# Bulgarian Gypsy's on theor way to good old handout Britain



## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

So what does everyone think about the Bulgarians that are coming here? I was told about an artical in a paper today that was discussing how they are tearing Germany apart at the mo - crime - turf wars - whore houses - schools and hospitals can;t cope etc etc. This cannot be right surely or maybe it can !!


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

Who're houses? Really? Don't suppose any numbers or price lists around :roll:


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## kevtga (Mar 8, 2012)

BrianR said:


> So what does everyone think about the Bulgarians that are coming here? I was told about an artical in a paper today that was discussing how they are tearing Germany apart at the mo - crime - turf wars - whore houses - schools and hospitals can;t cope etc etc. This cannot be right surely or maybe it can !!


Yes unfortunately they will be opening the flood gates even more to them on the 31st of December 2014 something to do with the EU and them not needing visa , it's a shame really as we really should be looking after the people we have at the moment not more


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## YELLOW_TT (Feb 25, 2004)

kevtga said:


> BrianR said:
> 
> 
> > So what does everyone think about the Bulgarians that are coming here? I was told about an artical in a paper today that was discussing how they are tearing Germany apart at the mo - crime - turf wars - whore houses - schools and hospitals can;t cope etc etc. This cannot be right surely or maybe it can !!
> ...


I think you hit the nail on the head right there :evil:


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## c15 ttt (Dec 3, 2010)

just means crime watch will have to run an extra half hour.this government and probably future ones aswell are happy to have us bent over with our pants round our ankles while the rest of the world stick it up us.rule britannia...stuff the economy and the eu.i would rather have pride in our country.dont know the criteria but i hope its not all underground families coming in as said.surely there must be good honest hard workers in which case thats understandable.


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

our days of post war extended families all living under the same roof to save money has long gone, wheras it is a normal way of life to them. as did the indians when they came over many years ago, it is the best way to pool resources and buy a property.........then the next and so on. we as a rule all struggle alone as couples buying all of the fancy clothes holidays etc and have bugger all to show for it.
they b uy one house and then slowly but surely take over the street, area......and so on. very smart of them i think.


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## j8keith (Jun 26, 2009)

Crime will escalate, our Police will be overwhelmed. Gaz I suggest that you start building stocks of window grills, because this time next year they will be in short supply.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

Bulgarians can already legally come to the UK, they just can't work unless they declare themselves self-employed. Even the government (who appear to oppose this potential migration) admit they have no idea how many people will come to the UK, yet the tabloids happily inform us of a 'flood' or a 'tidal wave' of criminals. If Bulgarian criminals want to come here, they already can, legally and without a visa, so it's likely that the only people waiting for the restrictions to be lifted are the ones who want to get proper jobs here,seeing as that's all the current restriction prevents.


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

j8keith said:


> Crime will escalate, our Police will be overwhelmed. Gaz I suggest that you start building stocks of window grills, because this time next year they will be in short supply.


i'll get some jigs knocked up ready keith


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## SalsredTT (Jan 8, 2011)

I'm sure I read somewhere recently that they are more likely to go to Germany, because they have already established links with work and families there.


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

Spandex said:


> Bulgarians can already legally come to the UK, they just can't work unless they declare themselves self-employed. Even the government (who appear to oppose this potential migration) admit they have no idea how many people will come to the UK, yet the tabloids happily inform us of a 'flood' or a 'tidal wave' of criminals. If Bulgarian criminals want to come here, they already can, legally and without a visa, so it's likely that the only people waiting for the restrictions to be lifted are the ones who want to get proper jobs here,seeing as that's all the current restriction prevents.


Certainly hope that you are right


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

SalsredTT said:


> I'm sure I read somewhere recently that they are more likely to go to Germany, because they have already established links with work and families there.


Yes, there was a story written somewhere this week that was speaking about the impact the Bulgarians has had on Germany, its economy, health service, crime rate and schools' all of it negative


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

It will be great if Spandex's view comes to reality, but if not we are screwed. Aren;t we pretty full already? Judging by the news our health service isnt working; our schools are under pressure; our unemployment rate is at 2 million; no housing for anyone wanting a house; we are all facing austerity on a daily basis - so how the hell is 500k people from another land going to help that? If it isnt going to help then why are we allowing that? And what the hell are we all going to do about that? We cant look after those that we already have and adding more to that is madness.


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

Maybe the banks will help out


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## c15 ttt (Dec 3, 2010)

just kill all humans...problem solved.whos first [smiley=behead2.gif] .lets give the planet a chance.we really are a bunch of losers.


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## T7 Doc (Jun 28, 2007)

BrianR said:


> It will be great if Spandex's view comes to reality, but if not we are screwed. Aren;t we pretty full already? Judging by the news our health service isnt working; our schools are under pressure; our unemployment rate is at 2 million; no housing for anyone wanting a house; we are all facing austerity on a daily basis - so how the hell is 500k people from another land going to help that? If it isnt going to help then why are we allowing that? And what the hell are we all going to do about that? We cant look after those that we already have and adding more to that is madness.


who wrote the story? one of your tabloids or someone of substance? Your original post talks about these people bringing crime and whore houses to the streets of utopian Englandshire. Are you mad? not forgetting England fucked up every country it ever took a fancy too how dare you pre empt another nations plight on your country?? - Whore houses? England is rife with them. Crime??? lol Watch ross kemp some evening on GOLD. read about crime in europe. It aint all Romanians and eastern europeans. Read about the banks. read about starbucks. read about it in something that hasnt a red logo. your country is no example to the developing world and as such should hold its opinion or the opinion implanted via gutter journalism in private.

Sorry but this shit makes me fume. Typical Shyte spread about by the quality journalism of the Daily star/MailSun whatever balls you people excuse for media. wise up and stop reading and regurgitating the shit you read in red tops.

As someone posted above. these people can already travel here without issue. Now they can do the jobs the lazy shite that lies in bed all day draped in dole money wont shift its fat disgusting arse to do BUT will protest at these people coming to work and fill the jobs these c*nts wont shift their fat hole for.


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

> who wrote the story? one of your tabloids or someone of substance? Your original post talks about these people bringing crime and whore houses to the streets of utopian Englandshire.


It was printed in the daily mail and was a story about how the Bulgarians have impacted upn germany. Now you may distrust the source, but as of yet I haven;t seen you disprove that. Spandex's view is one I said I hoped was true,



> re you mad? not forgetting England fucked up every country it ever took a fancy too how dare you pre empt another nations plight on your country?? - Whore houses? England is rife with them. Crime??? lol Watch ross kemp some evening on GOLD. read about crime in europe. It aint all Romanians and eastern europeans. Read about the banks. read about starbucks. read about it in something that hasnt a red logo. your country is no example to the developing world and as such should hold its opinion or the opinion implanted via gutter journalism in private.


You really should calm down chap. Of course I know all of that and have ranted often about it. Fact is if we do have an influx then our service which are already being hammered and withdrawn wont be able to cope and that includes the prisons. If our country is as you point out, then hopefully they wont come.



> Sorry but this shit makes me fume. Typical Shyte spread about by the quality journalism of the Daily star/MailSun whatever balls you people excuse for media. wise up and stop reading and regurgitating the shit you read in red tops.


'you people'??? what do you mean by that? Suggests tha you may be something different , betterthan the rest of us? see now that makes my blood boil, so suggest calming down and coming down a little chap.



> As someone posted above. these people can already travel here without issue. Now they can do the jobs the lazy shite that lies in bed all day draped in dole money wont shift its fat disgusting arse to do BUT will protest at these people coming to work and fill the jobs these c*nts wont shift their fat hole for.


[/quote]

Are these the lazy shite that are being made redundant on a daily basis? or the lazy shite youth that cant the jobs they used to get, because every spare job is given to a Pole willing to work for a pound an hour and a kick up the arse and a family tax rebate; in the knowledge that they can send lots of lovely child benefit home, for kids that dont even live here, money taken from a system that they have never paid a penny into? You need to get out more chap and stop reading a news paper that appears to be a cross between the red flag and daily express for your views (because they are a bit double standard I think). Sounds like you have a bit of a chip going on there mate and an ill informed one at that.

Hopefully they will all refrain from coming to GB and instead end their journey in the good old emerald isle, where they will no doubt receive a warm welcome, from folk well known for their tolerance and accaeptance of cultures and beliefs outside of their own and where the streets are paved with the gold given by the job shy british tax payer to stop it sinkng into the irish sea; just as long as they can dodge the flying bricks, petrol bombs and burning flags that is. See its ok unless this happens to land on your doorstep, after all you apparrently can't stand British people claiminng from their own system, most of whom hve actually paid into that at some point (or if not them, then their parents), so what are you going be like when a load of gypsy tinkers arrive around the corner with their hand out, running amok on the irish streets - oh yes, sorry, you already have that; and you only have to watch big fat gypsy weddings to realise that we have that now too.

Any way, I prefer to talk with those that you describe as* 'you people'*, in the main because they are not *'your people'*.

Have fun, watch that chip as it is pretty large and don't bust a gut (its not healthy) Top o the mornin to yah


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## T7 Doc (Jun 28, 2007)

BrianR said:


> > who wrote the story? one of your tabloids or someone of substance? Your original post talks about these people bringing crime and whore houses to the streets of utopian Englandshire.
> 
> 
> It was printed in the daily mail and was a story about how the Bulgarians have impacted upn germany. Now you may distrust the source, but as of yet I haven;t seen you disprove that. Spandex's view is one I said I hoped was true,
> ...


Are these the lazy shite that are being made redundant on a daily basis? or the lazy shite youth that cant the jobs they used to get, because every spare job is given to a Pole willing to work for a pound an hour and a kick up the arse and a family tax rebate; in the knowledge that they can send lots of lovely child benefit home, for kids that dont even live here, money taken from a system that they have never paid a penny into? You need to get out more chap and stop reading a news paper that appears to be a cross between the red flag and daily express for your views (because they are a bit double standard I think). Sounds like you have a bit of a chip going on there mate and an ill informed one at that.

Hopefully they will all refrain from coming to GB and instead end their journey in the good old emerald isle, where they will no doubt receive a warm welcome, from folk well known for their tolerance and accaeptance of cultures and beliefs outside of their own and where the streets are paved with the gold given by the job shy british tax payer to stop it sinkng into the irish sea; just as long as they can dodge the flying bricks, petrol bombs and burning flags that is. See its ok unless this happens to land on your doorstep, after all you apparrently can't stand British people claiminng from their own system, most of whom hve actually paid into that at some point (or if not them, then their parents), so what are you going be like when a load of gypsy tinkers arrive around the corner with their hand out, running amok on the irish streets - oh yes, sorry, you already have that; and you only have to watch big fat gypsy weddings to realise that we have that now too.

Any way, I prefer to talk with those that you describe as* 'you people'*, in the main because they are not *'your people'*.

Have fun, watch that chip as it is pretty large and don't bust a gut (its not healthy) Top o the mornin to yah [/quote]

dont think so Brian - im an easy going chap. the fact is those issues you mention regard unemployment are global. being made unemployed?? - 2 restaurants owing me £1000 each closed down last week due to the ongoing British flag issue in NI, This was done by British subjects ruining their own economy - NOT a blow in from eastern europe, and better still those restaurants when open had European staff employed, Doing jobs that unemployed people wouldn't be arsed to do. the issues you bring up regards the north of ireland are currently the work of so called loyal British subjects simply because they cant accept equality and insist that a Union flag is flown 365 days a year on City hall which is a nationalist council. Even uninionst council like Lisburn have the designated days policy in place - In 8 weeks it has cost £15M to police and £15M lost to business in the city center. This flag demand also contradicts the British stance of respecting the flag and flying it on designated days to perhaps honor your royal families birthdays or simply to allow it to be respected as any flag should be - Sadly in NI british people fly torn raggy flags from lamp posts 12 month a year now right across the country and if anything disrespect what it stands for. The issues prior to the as we say FLEG issue are about 350 years old and again involve settlers/planters who took or where given land and basically did as i pointed out in my first post. However thats moving away from the core post - Simple answer is fly both flags. Last census has the Protestant "community" in a minority in the North so i guess that alone would create fear. Fear like we see in UK citizens getting their daily mail knickers in a twist at the thought of an influx of rapy thiefy ATM fiddling euro thief's landing - No doubt some naughty people will come to your country but should you be frightened? worried about jobs?? No! and if you are then i suggest you start a campaign to bring home every UK/British person employed over seas at any level.from every university in America and across europe and close the doors.

I have no idea what your attack on Gypsys means or tries to prove other than you are an intolerant nation that hates being told it's intolerant. The travelling community does not hail exclusively from Ireland.

Listen it's Friday and I am clearly not one who enjoys hearing this old fear of other nations swamping our lands thing - reminds me of the words used by our unionist politicians here when the flag was torn/ripped or dragged down... these are the words used to their grass roots. Creating fear and bringing them on to the streets to cause damage to an already seriously damaged micro UK economy. Well done! - The reality is a democratic decision was made to fly it on designated days but it wasnt democratic - Why? because SF and SDLP were involved! As I say its friday. Enjoy a few Stella and a chinese or indian tonight and embrace difference. dont fear it otherwise you'll be stuck with that horrible warm ale and jellied eels for tea


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## Mark Davies (Apr 10, 2007)

Spandex said:


> Bulgarians can already legally come to the UK, they just can't work unless they declare themselves self-employed. Even the government (who appear to oppose this potential migration) admit they have no idea how many people will come to the UK, yet the tabloids happily inform us of a 'flood' or a 'tidal wave' of criminals. If Bulgarian criminals want to come here, they already can, legally and without a visa, so it's likely that the only people waiting for the restrictions to be lifted are the ones who want to get proper jobs here,seeing as that's all the current restriction prevents.


No, I don't think that's quite right. That's currently the case for Romanians, who are entitled to travel here without visas, as they are party to the Schengen Agreement - but they're not allowed to work (except as self-employed) as they're not full members of the EU. I believe current discussions include accepting Romania as full members - allowing them to work - and introducing Bulgaria to the Schengen Agreement, on the same terms Romania are currently on.

It's this set of rules which have resulted in a significant Romanian community mostly engaged in selling the Big Issue, collecting scrap metal and sadly committing crime. If it can be shown they are unable to support themselves they can be removed from the country, but it's rarely done because once removed they are entitled to come straight back.

We coped with the influx of Romanians, though it has to be said in certain areas they have had a significant impact - overwhelming some local communities. It was difficult at first as they had very different ideas regarding acceptable behaviour (they are from a travelling culture, after all), but it has settled down once they got to know the rules. There is still a significant criminal constituent though.

I expect we will get exactly the same with the Bulgarians.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

Mark Davies said:


> Spandex said:
> 
> 
> > Bulgarians can already legally come to the UK, they just can't work unless they declare themselves self-employed. Even the government (who appear to oppose this potential migration) admit they have no idea how many people will come to the UK, yet the tabloids happily inform us of a 'flood' or a 'tidal wave' of criminals. If Bulgarian criminals want to come here, they already can, legally and without a visa, so it's likely that the only people waiting for the restrictions to be lifted are the ones who want to get proper jobs here,seeing as that's all the current restriction prevents.
> ...


I got my info here, which seems to apply the same rules to both Bulgarians and Romanians. Perhaps I'm reading it wrong, but it is a set of pages specifically naming those two countries:

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/eucitizens/bulgaria-romania/work-permits/liveworkuk/


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

From documentation on the Home Office site (linked above):


> Since 1st January 2007, as European Economic Area (EEA) nationals, Bulgarians and Romanians have been able to move and reside freely in any Member State. They do not require leave to enter or remain to reside legally in the UK.


As Mark says, Romanians have already caused some problems here, yet Bulgarians don't seem to have had the same impact despite being, it seems, governed by the same rules.

Unfortunately, the reaction here is a good indication of how easy it is for the tabloids to drum up fear and hatred in the population, all for the purpose of increasing sales. There are no real facts presented in the articles. They print baseless predictions of the number of Bulgarians coming here, and they tell us how Germany is being torn apart by Bulgarian criminals, with no real figures to back it up. We swallow it, hook, line and sinker without checking facts because it resonates with our fears.

We all want the opportunity to visit and work in other countries (there must be almost a million UK ex-pats living and working in Spain now) but we don't want to offer the same courtesy to other countries. But that's different, right? We're good people, unlike those Romanians and Bulgarians... I mean, no one in Spain could ever claim the brits have ruined parts of their country :lol: .


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## zltm089 (Jul 27, 2009)

I don't mind the whore houses at all....apart from that, keep the the rest out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

England is FULL!!!!!!!!!!! ....NO SPACE, UNDERSTAND?!....no speaking english.....ahhh for fucks sake...i give up... :x


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

zltm089 said:


> I don't mind the whore houses at all....apart from that, keep the the rest out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> England is FULL!!!!!!!!!!! ....NO SPACE, UNDERSTAND?!....no speaking english.....ahhh for fucks sake...i give up... :x


It's a common Middle England warcry, but what does it actually mean? We're certainly not physically full, so maybe it means we can't afford the amount of people we have here. Again, I'm not sure that's technically true, as we should be self supporting as a nation, and someones nationality doesn't affect that ability. Perhaps it means there aren't enough jobs for the number of people here? Well, one thing is certainly true - 'closing the doors' won't encourage companies to do business here and will reduce our ability to do business in Europe (as we would have to leave Europe in order to restrict access). We might be no better off in the long run.

Australia is often used as an example of how to keep 'undesirables' out, but do we really want to end up like that? Ignoring the outrageous hypocrisy of a country which was colonised by criminals only 200 years ago and is now famously choosy about who they let in, Australia is pretty insignificant financially, politically, culturally and industrially. I don't see them as a country we should model ourselves on.

It's a fine line, but it's not simply a case of stopping immigrants and reaping the financial benefits. Closing the doors may do more harm than good.


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

> Listen it's Friday and I am clearly not one who enjoys hearing this old fear of other nations swamping our lands thing - reminds me of the words used by our unionist politicians here when the flag was torn/ripped or dragged down... these are the words used to their grass roots. Creating fear and bringing them on to the streets to cause damage to an already seriously damaged micro UK economy. Well done! - The reality is a democratic decision was made to fly it on designated days but it wasnt democratic - Why? because SF and SDLP were involved! As I say its friday. Enjoy a few Stella and a chinese or indian tonight and embrace difference. dont fear it otherwise you'll be stuck with that horrible warm ale and jellied eels for tea


[/quote]

The dofference is chap that we do go to orther countries, but we dont claim benefits we havent earned, we cant use a health service we havent paid for and are only allowed in if there is a job to go to in the first place. I have nothing agianst the irish - my grandparents hailed from Ireland, they were the ancestors of the political migrants who left ireland in search of a better life; so I am not against people mvoing from country to country = I am against mass migration where the vast majority of thise coming here take before they give. And to my mind that is what hapopened in Germany and may happen here, There is a hard core of lazy benefit grabbing goons wherever you go, but I promise you here and now with unemployment as it is, people will do anything - it is simply not fair that they are gazumped to a job by someone just rolling off the boat. The UK has already done its fair share; you maybe dont see the rpoblem because there is nothing to gain by migrants of going to Ireland at the moment, byt we are seeing it every day.

I understand the irish issue; I was brought up shouting abuse at the orange lodge as they marched along Scotland rd in liverpool banging their drums. I understand how negative that is. It doesnt alter the fact that the services we currently offer cannot cope with thousands more making demands upon it.

BTW I hate jellied eels but love Iriush Stew! Enjoy the rest of your Friday


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

> We all want the opportunity to visit and work in other countries (there must be almost a million UK ex-pats living and working in Spain now) but we don't want to offer the same courtesy to other countries. But that's different, right? We're good people, unlike those Romanians and Bulgarians... I mean, no one in Spain could ever claim the brits have ruined parts of their country :lol: .


[/quote]

I hear what you are saying but how many of these countries would give our expats family allowance to send home to their kids in England? How many would offer these expats a free home; an income; free education for their kids (and create classes and schools just for them) and give full and free access to a health service? I don't know the facts but I have a strong feeling that it is not many. Fact is they are already here - they are already taking advantage of what our ancesteors worked long and hard to build, what those of us working today contiunue to fund; and under normal circumstances I am fine with that; but we havent got it to give right now - take the revelations about health; not enough nurses to feed the patients because of the cuts and patients dying in piss sodden beds; If we cannot afford that then how can we afford to take any tom dick or harry ? it doesnt make sense and thats not press scaremongerring (please credit us all with a little intelligence Spandex, we may not all be as precise as you but we are not f#cking idiots either), its happening and its here right now and you me and everyone else working are paying for it. I for one am sick of it and because I pay, I am entitled to be.


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

> It's a fine line, but it's not simply a case of stopping immigrants and reaping the financial benefits. Closing the doors may do more harm than good.


[/quote]

They have nothing we need right now. Dio you honestly think that BMW Merceds and Audi are going to want to stop trading with the uk because we wont allow a load of migrants in? Nah, europe is driven by the market and money talks. Fact is we buy from europe much more than we sell; they need us!!


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

BrianR said:


> I hear what you are saying but how many of these countries would give our expats family allowance to send home to their kids in England? How many would offer these expats a free home; an income; free education for their kids (and create classes and schools just for them) and give full and free access to a health service? I don't know the facts but I have a strong feeling that it is not many.


I don't know the facts either, but I sure as hell would find them out before I got annoyed by it. But this is the problem really, isn't it. None of us really know all the facts you'd need to know in order to make an informed judgement on how much immigration costs us (and how much stopping it might cost us), so why is there so much outrage and hatred out there? If it's not based on facts, what causes it?


BrianR said:


> Fact is they are already here - they are already taking advantage of what our ancesteors worked long and hard to build, what those of us working today contiunue to fund; and under normal circumstances I am fine with that; but we havent got it to give right now - take the revelations about health; not enough nurses to feed the patients because of the cuts and patients dying in piss sodden beds; If we cannot afford that then how can we afford to take any tom dick or harry ? it doesnt make sense and thats not press scaremongerring (please credit us all with a little intelligence Spandex, we may not all be as precise as you but we are not f#cking idiots either), its happening and its here right now and you me and everyone else working are paying for it. I for one am sick of it and because I pay, I am entitled to be.


Well, firstly, the NHS wastes unbelievable amounts of money on over-paid, under-skilled management, implementing inefficient, expensive, and often completely unworkable policies and processes, so reducing the number of patients by a tiny percentage isn't going to resolve anything (not to mention the fact that without immigrants, the NHS would be vastly understaffed)

Secondly, again we have no information presented to us, only emotions. How many immigrants are receiving NHS care whilst not working here? How much do they cost the country? Without knowing these things how can we claim not to be able to afford it?


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

BrianR said:


> Fact is we buy from europe much more than we sell; they need us!!


It's a two way street though, isn't it. If the stuff we buy from Europe became more expensive and they stopped buying from us, we wouldn't be in a good place. It doesn't matter if they need us or not. Them suffering isn't going to put us in a better position.

The idea that we can just close our doors and become a little island fortress ignores all the economical facts and is based on an outdated notion that we're still a superpower. We're not an empire any more. We don't have the clout or resources to just turn our backs on everyone else.


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

> I don't know the facts either, but I sure as hell would find them out before I got annoyed by it. But this is the problem really, isn't it. None of us really know all the facts you'd need to know in order to make an informed judgement on how much immigration costs us (and how much stopping it might cost us), so why is there so much outrage and hatred out there? If it's not based on facts, what causes it?


Maybe its every time I walk into a shop, or go for a coffee or a meal or a pint ,m or to stay in a hotel, I am faced with a Polish person. I don't hate them, I don;t know them. The facts I do know; we have over 2 million unemployed; regardless of how our health service works or fails it is failing (I never said kick out those who are here, I said stop those who arew coming; as budgets are being cut, councils don't have resource to give special attention to kids who don't speak english; Migrants needing houses; benefits to be alllocated; all of this whilst we have nationals looking for and wanting work struggling to get by. I dont know all the facts but I believe it is a fact that our own should take precidence. You make it sound like we are all ignorant scaremongerers gaters lead by the press. We arent we are simply sick of being taken for miugs by all and sundry and it has to stop.



> Well, firstly, the NHS wastes unbelievable amounts of money on over-paid, under-skilled management, implementing inefficient, expensive, and often completely unworkable policies and processes, so reducing the number of patients by a tiny percentage isn't going to resolve anything (not to mention the fact that without immigrants, the NHS would be vastly understaffed)


Well maybe without migrants it may run better; I was in a hospital recently and half the staff struggled with the most basic english. With lots of migrants working ion the NHS people are dying in piss and shit filled beds; they are starving to death or thirsting to death for the sake of a glass of water; these imiigrants cant even hold a conversation with patients, so what are they doing there? I dont doubt its failings and so even more pressure on that will impact it. and it may be someone you know who can't get a bed, or an operation, or a house, or a job, because some Bulgarian is getting what is meant for you and send most of that home to enrich a country he no longer lives in.



> Secondly, again we have no information presented to us, only emotions. How many immigrants are receiving NHS care whilst not working here? How much do they cost the country? Without knowing these things how can we claim not to be able to afford it?


[/quote]

We are told on a daily basis that we are in recession; cuts have to be made; we are given deficit facts ongoing;as a country we are borrowing more to pay for what we have got; public services have been devestated and have more cuts to come; we are told that 'we cannot afford' to do the things we did ongoing. So anything that comes in to take more out, surely means we *cannot afford it? *What other facts do you need?


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

> The idea that we can just close our doors and become a little island fortress ignores all the economical facts and is based on an outdated notion that we're still a superpower. We're not an empire any more. We don't have the clout or resources to just turn our backs on everyone else.


[/quote]

Firstly I didnt suggest that we do that; I suggested that we stopped more people coming here taking advantage of tthe system we have here. I also suggested that doing this wont stop europe wanting to trade with us; we import more than we export and we give a huge ammount of GDP to the bottom line of Europe; we are also there to bail out the other foreign economies as we did with Ireland. Do you honestly think they wpould want to kick us out because we wont let this group of people in? No chance



> It's a two way street though, isn't it. If the stuff we buy from Europe became more expensive and they stopped buying from us, we wouldn't be in a good place. It doesn't matter if they need us or not. Them suffering isn't going to put us in a better position.


Its more of a one way street at the moment and I dont believe all of that will happen; capitalism only survives in a free market environment. No, they need us and they know it. So for once in our lives have the balls politically to do the 'rioght' thing. As much as I couldnt stand the woman, it is in times like this that we need a thatcher, not some wet middle ground hugger whose only interest is self survival.


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

> I expect we will get exactly the same with the Bulgarians.


[/quote]

Your facts speak volumes Mark!


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

ok its.....................Gazzer time :lol:

Spandy: you say about those here working at present have a perfect right to be here, yes i agree in a roundabout way except one fact bud. many of them have a plan of time here for working and living to make as much as possible living in squalid conditions and sending all spare cash home to the family every week. (i know this for certain ) so these people come here yes ok they work pay basic tax but put all other money back to their home country............not exactly bloody cricket is it old chap?

Mark: may god take those handcuffs off you guys and allow you to find illegals and then kick them out........passport or not!!! to pick up an illegal and have to let them go as no room in holding areas.......report every two weeks at blah blah. (fuck that actually happens)

irish person: hmmmmmm so us brits are to blame that you lost 2k in revenue? wtf stop smoking those silly jamaican woodbines they will make you dafter lol. i think you will find main land Britain even gives a fook about northern ireland or its policies tbh. can keep ya footing horse burgers for a start ya scamming knobs lmao........

lesson over................all bog off and enjoy its friday night. xxx


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

BrianR said:


> > I expect we will get exactly the same with the Bulgarians.
> 
> 
> Your facts speak volumes Mark!


They do indeed. The Home Office website confirms, Bulgarians and Romanians have been governed by the same immigration rules and as Mark says, the Romanians have caused some problems since they started arriving here in numbers. The fact that the Bulgarians haven't, as you say, speaks volumes.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

Gazzer said:


> ok its.....................Gazzer time :lol:
> 
> Spandy: you say about those here working at present have a perfect right to be here, yes i agree in a roundabout way except one fact bud. many of them have a plan of time here for working and living to make as much as possible living in squalid conditions and sending all spare cash home to the family every week. (i know this for certain ) so these people come here yes ok they work pay basic tax but put all other money back to their home country............not exactly bloody cricket is it old chap?


It's no different from the thousands of young British people who work in bars and clubs in Spain, living in overcrowded crappy apartments, being paid a pittance (which they put up with because it's all a big party to them) while locals not only can't get a job, but also have to put up with Brits doing what we do best and ruining every holiday town we come across. Actually, it is different, because at least the Eastern Europeans are trying to make enough money to send home to their struggling families... The Brits are trying to make enough money to get of their faces and throw up in the street. And chances are, they've filled in all the right forms, so the NHS are still paying for their regular trips to a Spanish A&E to be patched up after falling over drunk in the street, or for regular treatments for whatever sexually transmitted disease they've managed to catch this time.


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## T7 Doc (Jun 28, 2007)

Gazzer said:


> ok its.....................Gazzer time :lol:
> 
> Spandy: you say about those here working at present have a perfect right to be here, yes i agree in a roundabout way except one fact bud. many of them have a plan of time here for working and living to make as much as possible living in squalid conditions and sending all spare cash home to the family every week. (i know this for certain ) so these people come here yes ok they work pay basic tax but put all other money back to their home country............not exactly bloody cricket is it old chap?
> 
> ...


Gazzer the meat plant was in Ireland correct, we are an amazing place to do business in - Silvercrest is the company you refer to and they supply globally. The meat came from poland not ireland and lets be honest the French eat it daily, perhaps media hype have a finger herer. Think of it like a Michelin tyre factory in Manchester. they dont dig the rubber out of the ground in Manchester. and they make jokes about us lol - Hay i still have an email you sent me asking me to act the hard man to retrieve money from an irish guy you stupidly lent it to on a forum. lol - £700+ you got stung for LOL - Dont try and make me out to be stupid or my country to be stupid if you lend money to people you've never met lol

And contrary to what you think mate - I did loose £2k (actually a hell of a lot more) to those idiots who think blocking roads is a good way of crying about a flag. The figure today stands at £30M lost in NI in 6 weeks - And i didnt say you were to blame I said people who profess to be British were to blame. you destroyed your own capital when things went against you and you have as a collective race plundered the world over centuries and absolutely smashed every country you landed in. Today it continues under the guise of democratizing the middle East. lets all call a chicken a chicken. it has sweet fuck all with helping these countries and 100% to do with raping their resources. if not, you'd be in very different countries to the ones youre in. actually helping people, not playing football with their skulls... and yes i seen photographs from a friend wo served in the forces. Just call me MR Morgan "with" the footage lol

boys im not anti British. In actual fact i love the country but im not ignorant and i can read between the lines of your red tops. FYI - Scotland wants away, We want away and even the most hardened Brit born in Northern Ireland will proclaim to be Irish if asked while over seas. The Welsh? ?Well I think we know the position dont we.

Heres a bigger Question. What is being British? I have no idea any more. Ask a yank and they'll talk about the 60's. Ask a Senior bloke 70+ and they'll talk about the war from 1940's. Ask someone my age 35 who is educated and they will talk about the state of the economy and the state of the government. Walk though London, birmingham, glasgow etc - Whats British other than the buildings??? nothing. Great Britain? hmmmm go visit a museum ....


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

T7DOC ,,, good on yer mate ,,,but I think you are wasting your time ,,, most people are so entrenched it the mind set which is formed by the " weapons of mass distraction " ,the mail star sun etc that there is no way a lone voice is going to stop that train ,,, even Brian who is usually more informed seems to have been taken in this time .


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

Spandex said:


> Gazzer said:
> 
> 
> > ok its.....................Gazzer time :lol:
> ...


Go there and see if they will give you a free house, a school for your kids and pay you for the benefit of being there. Ours our there, but to the most part they are working or starving.Yes you can use their Aand E but unless you have what used to be called an e111 then you have to pay for that via your insurance. But manage to get here and it is - welcome, come in, run amok, use our services; dont worry here is a job and a few quid to help you; your kids can go to school here and we will divert funds to help them learn english; I tell you what we will build a whole school just for them. If you dont believe me go to Bradford and have a look. Brits abroad on holiday is a whole different ball game and I dislike that scene as much as most relatively intelligent people.

Roddy I hear where you are coming from. I am tolerant by nature; at the heart of my value system is a strong sense of social justice, I give monthly from my salary to charity; I am a volunteer counsellor and counsell some really damaged and needy people. This is equivelent to having a tenner in your pocket, really needing that to put food on the table for your kids, but giving it away to someone else. Then looking at your family and telling em, 'never mind they need it more'. There is a time and a place for charity and welcome and right now isn't it. In my opinion we simply don't have that luxury any more.


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

We're all doomed (spoken in a Scottish accent) as per the old boy in dads army


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## T7 Doc (Jun 28, 2007)

roddy said:


> T7DOC ,,, good on yer mate ,,,but I think you are wasting your time ,,, most people are so entrenched it the mind set which is formed by the " weapons of mass distraction " ,the mail star sun etc that there is no way a lone voice is going to stop that train ,,, even Brian who is usually more informed seems to have been taken in this time .


Well i have to say I enjoy reading Brian's post and im not wanting to fall out with someone over an issue we have no control over but it really winds me up when British people talk about other races coming over and the quality of these people to boot.

I was speaking to a very irate and screaming NI British bloke recently who was demanding the flag be put back up 365. His life had been damaged, his culture (the flying of a flag and marching across catholic estates to celebrate a battle victory some centuries ago) His core British values - had been diluted.

Had they really? How? From December when the decision was taken democratically how had his life changed? What part of his British identity had been diluted? Had his mortgage doubled? had the price of bread gone through the roof? Had his wife started sleeping with a taig? Nope!! - Noting had changed. Other than a load of British kids had decided to petrol bomb the Police daily. Businesses had suffered as a direct result of the protests and people are not wanting to go to our city center which is suffering enough with the economic woes we deal with on a daily basis. thats what being British means here.

So OK maybe forgive me and my rants on this but i am pretty much fed up with British people destroying my country in the name of Britian. I didnt support any side growing up. I mixed with people freely and I embrace new culture. I love that we, the Irish spread throughout the world and helped build nations and have a rich history in most developed countries. Read your history and you'll see that British folk did likewise. Its simply the way of the world. Young Irish men are again leaving in numbers to go and find work in Oz and America. They dont leave smiling. They leave to live. To support their family and to better their life. I would think eastern europeans dont leave home rubbing their hands with planning permission for Whore houses in their pocket - That said some of them do. I went to Austrailia once and behaved like a complete fucker for a year. I imagine if i met myself or someone behaving likewise id have a slap in my pocket for them.

Undoubtedly bad eggs will come to your country. But some homegrown talent will also leave your country and go and behave like a dick elsewhere. Regards the hospitals, jobs and generally getting handouts from the UK government... Maybe Cameron will give you your say and you cant opt to leave Europe. But i can guarantee you one thing. There will be another election and the hordes of chest beating English men and women will go and vote tory or labour. lib dem will be wiped out and you will vote in the same mupets as we do time and time again and wonder why nothing ever changes.

It's my mums birthday so im of out to get her and my da and my wife snotterd.

God bless the Queen


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

Fullfact.org is an excellent site which basically reviews claims made by politicians and the media by applying fact-based analysis of public data. From all the articles I've read on there, it doesn't appear to have any bias or agenda and, probably more importantly, they're very transparent in their methods and sources. I think It's worth reading most of the stuff on there, because it puts the press and our politicians under the microscope but specifically, there are a number of articles on there about immigration because it's a common subject in the media. It might not be the emotive articles you'll get in the press, but at least you get a very accurate analysis with links to all the data you would need to form your own opinions.

This page is an interesting analysis of the claim that youth unemployment is linked to immigration:

http://fullfact.org/factchecks/does_immigration_cost_UK_workers_jobs-27257


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

boys im not anti British. In actual fact i love the country but im not ignorant and i can read between the lines of your red tops. FYI - Scotland wants away, We want away and even the most hardened Brit born in Northern Ireland will proclaim to be Irish if asked while over seas. The Welsh? ?Well I think we know the position dont we.

We agree; I wonder how quickly we can manage your going? Nah, you boys would just replace the Poles and Bulgarians in coning here to work and live; being a member of Europe we would have to let you. I understand the British Irish history, but for god sake dont stand with your hand out and take our help (£billions to bail you out) one minute and then the next tell me you would like to seperate from the union. Its ok, we understand, you should leave the Union; just drop all the cash you owe us back into the bank of England on the way out. The last time Irleland was so poor, they ended up populating half the world (again I am not knocking the Irish; one of my closest friends lives in Donegal). I heard what you said about - 'what does country mean to people'; we no longer know who we are; ride a tube in London and I guarantee you, you probably wont see another English face (before anyone jumps up and down, i include all ethnic backgounds born here as English) ; so is it any wonder we dont know who we are and are a ittle sick of those coming here with the sole intention of take take take? calling us fit to burn and then f#cking off until we are needed once again? Genuineley I think we have more than paid for any ills our capatalist imperialist masters of the past may have bestowed upon the world; one example of that was the repatriation of half of Europe (when all these great countries and fantastic people had cowtowed to the german jackboot, our folks fought on (noone was complaining about the British then were they)' for fifty years repaying the yanks for supplying us with the arms to do that and giving up any empire we had wrongly created; whilst they rebuilt nazi germany, our folk were still on rations. We payed the price then and we are still paying it. For what its worth I hope the union does break up - I am sick of the unfairness; english kids pay for university, scottish kids dont; english people pay for prescriptions, scottish people dont; english people welcomed to scotland on holiday, then called fit to burn when the go. Whining Gaelic tone and screaming kilted men playing whinning pipes. I can only speak for myself, but as an average joe englishman I am sick of it. So great; go and go quickly, dont worry about paying us anything, see it as severance pay, because in the long term your countries will likely need that very much and I hope we shut thew door in your faces as you do ours right now. p.s Hope you had a brilliant night on the lash with yer ma and da - bottoms up


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

BrianR said:


> we no longer know who we are; ride a tube in London and I guarantee you, you probably wont see another English face (before anyone jumps up and down, i include all ethnic backgounds born here as English)


Sorry, but I live in London and I've had plenty of jobs which involved daily commutes on the tube and this simply isn't true. In probably the most multi-cultural city in the UK, the majority of voices you hear are still English.


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

Spandex said:


> BrianR said:
> 
> 
> > we no longer know who we are; ride a tube in London and I guarantee you, you probably wont see another English face (before anyone jumps up and down, i include all ethnic backgounds born here as English)
> ...


Firstly we ride different tubes thats for sure , either that our you are blind and deaf; secondly no one speaks on the tube, they all sit looking at the feet for fear of beoing knifed by a bulgarian. The silence is probably due to the fact that they all speak different languages and noone would understand any way. It is the most mutli cultural city in the country and in my opinion and with respect, it is also the worst.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

BrianR said:


> Spandex said:
> 
> 
> > BrianR said:
> ...


Right, you don't live here, but you think you know better? Maybe you're the one who's blind and deaf. It would explain a lot.

I give up. I don't mind a vocal debate, but I'm not banging my head against this bloody-minded brick wall any more.


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

> Right, you don't live here, but you think you know better? Maybe you're the one who's blind and deaf. It would explain a lot.


Excuse me, I lived in London Monday to friday for three years, with respect to those who live there, it is a shitehole. I travelled on the tube every single day in that time from Beaconsfield to Uxbridge and most days onwards to hammersmith and Leicester Square. So, no, you are definately the one who is blind and deaf (blind and deaf to anyone elses view other than your own) and it explains everything.



> I give up. I don't mind a vocal debate, but I'm not banging my head against this bloody-minded brick wall any more.


[/quote]

See, Spamdex says it and it must be right; everyuone listen to Spandex and accept his overwhelming insight because he is the only one who knows and has the only truth. Grow up bud, I 'm sick of hearing your whinging and saying your done when it doesn't go your way, the only brick wall here is you (do you ever agree with anyone about anything? Not here obviously), the rest of us are obviously all simply chimps, have no experience and know f#ckall. Spandex is all knowing and must be obeyed. Jog on .


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

I'm not sure why you keep having to say how shit London is, as if I'm going to care. I live here for the good jobs, not the ambience. Anyway, you have three years of experience, however long ago, yet you still know better than someone who's been here more than five times longer than you? And I'm the one who can't admit they're wrong?

So you don't want to believe the blind and deaf man, why not go look up the stats on nationalities in London? Do you think English people will actually be the minority? Of course they're not. Use your brain for once.


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

Spandex said:


> I'm not sure why you keep having to say how shit London is, as if I'm going to care. I live here for the good jobs, not the ambience. Anyway, you have three years of experience, however long ago, yet you still know better than someone who's been here more than five times longer than you? And I'm the one who can't admit they're wrong?
> 
> So you don't want to believe the blind and deaf man, why not go look up the stats on nationalities in London? Do you think English people will actually be the minority? Of course they're not. Use your brain for once.


I will deal with this later; I have a life to go live at the moment.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

Let me "deal with it" for you. The 2011 census data shows that just under 37% of London residents were not born in the UK. If you want to go with your original, baffling comment about "English faces" on the tube (what an English face is supposed to look like, I have no idea), 60% of residents are white (not necessarily white British, but we're just going on faces here aren't we, so we don't know if they're French or German without hearing them talk).

I lived in Liverpool for four years... Maybe I should try telling you that I know the place better than you. I imagine that would go down well.


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

WTF , once again it deteriorates into a persomal slaging match !!! Listening to people arguing about which shit hole is the worst London or Liverpool just reminds me of why we ( Scotland ) want away from your small little england mindset !and the sioner the better . And reading a scouser calling anybody a whining anything is a bit much for even my normally sympathetic attitude , when since maggies day our oil revenue has kept your stinking parasitic country alive now that you can't steal from the rest of the world throo you empire ,,,, well of course with the exception of Africa where you are still theiving from in a massive scale while propogating African Aide ,, stealing thousands with one hand and sanctimoniously giving pennies babck with the other to the ipoverished populace which you are creating ,,,,,,,, and what's this shit about fighting on in europe when everyone else had given into Natzi jackboot , check it out , you were driven into the sea at dunkirk ,, it wasn't the british who beat the germans , it was the Russians who won WW2 , then in rode the yankie doodle dandies with their bugles blowing and their flags a flyin !!!!! And if the people , who ever they may be ,sit on the tube scared that they are going to get stabed by uncle bulgaria then they really are living in the land of winnie the poo !!!!Anyway so the real powers have won again , throo their weapons of mass distraction they have us squabling amoung our selves ,,


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

No one has compared London and Liverpool. Glad to see you rising above the slanging match though. :roll:


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

Spandex said:


> No one has compared London and Liverpool. Glad to see you rising above the slanging match though. :roll:


This tickled me :lol:


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

Spandex said:


> No one has compared London and Liverpool. Glad to see you rising above the slanging match though. :roll:


  who ? Me ? ,, I would never sink to those depths :lol:


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

T7DOC , there are not that many people on here who will know what a " taig " is ... Maybe Brian since he is from Liverpool


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

nasty name for a catholic isn't it?


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

It is indeed o learned one , my apologies for thinking you might not know !!!


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

roddy said:


> It is indeed o learned one , my apologies for thinking you might not know !!!


told you bud i spent time in leith a few years back


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

GaZ ,,, 3 @ 12". Sch 20 super duplex today ,, la vie facile ,,,,,,, buddy , how was your day , and the friendliest guy in the whole workshop was a " jam role " ( I expect you know what that is . )


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

Spandex said:


> I'm not sure why you keep having to say how shit London is, as if I'm going to care. I live here for the good jobs, not the ambience. Anyway, you have three years of experience, however long ago, yet you still know better than someone who's been here more than five times longer than you? And I'm the one who can't admit they're wrong?[/quote
> 
> 
> 
> > So you don't want to believe the blind and deaf man, why not go look up the stats on nationalities in London? Do you think English people will actually be the minority? Of course they're not. Use your brain for once.


First I say those things about London because that is how I have experienced the place and because I can, Look, I think my knowledge of the palce is sufficient to know and comment, you may have been there five times longer, but you sound quite a loaner and therefore I doubt you get out very much. Thing about facts that people who love facts hate, is that they can always be challenged cant they, it depends upon what facts you use too doesnt i?. See I like people who go with gut and judge as they find; anyone can spend all day researching to support an argument, I think life is too short. Not only that, it is a pretty one dimensional way of being and pretty boring only to ever have views based upon someone elses hard work; I would like to know what Spandex believes, you only ever comment when you dont agree; you never bring anything new; your views are always the same, pretty negatove; given you only believe in things commited to writing I guess you have been eating a lot of horse lately eh; just because it says it on the tin doesn;t mean its correct. For example the census which says 37% of Londners are not British (which is a pretty big proportion and I am guessing you thought that too and is why you produced it before I could), does not include the 1 Million supposed illegal aliens who live there does it? Which would mean there are more Foreigners in London than English people. So once again your so called 'facts' are only partially correct are they not? As they were when Mark pointed things out a little earlier in this stream. In general though I couldnt give a toss what the census says; or what your facts tell you; I prefer to believe my own eyes and ears and you would need to be deluded not have noticed.

I use my brain quite a lot and have never said any of those things; this is about you trying to make your argument stronger by abusing and name calling again, when your facts dont make a particularly strong argument, as you did whn you called Gazzer a chimp. Spandex I am very bored debating with you; your views never change, you are always right, you are incapable of forming your own independent view without the facts and statistcs of other bean counters; but ingeneral because debating with you is like being in a cave that has an echo; the same old bollocks continues to come back time and time again; one dimensional Spandex and his one dimensional arguments. You are welcome to them mate, but I am not going to waste another second on you. Cheerio


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

roddy said:


> T7DOC , there are not that many people on here who will know what a " taig " is ... Maybe Brian since he is from Liverpool


 Yes I know what it means. and I know slurs towards orangemen too  Have been called a feenian bastard once or twice too


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

roddy said:


> WTF , once again it deteriorates into a persomal slaging match !!! Listening to people arguing about which shit hole is the worst London or Liverpool just reminds me of why we ( Scotland ) want away from your small little england mindset !and the sioner the better . And reading a scouser calling anybody a whining anything is a bit much for even my normally sympathetic attitude , when since maggies day our oil revenue has kept your stinking parasitic country alive now that you can't steal from the rest of the world throo you empire ,,,, well of course with the exception of Africa where you are still theiving from in a massive scale while propogating African Aide ,, stealing thousands with one hand and sanctimoniously giving pennies babck with the other to the ipoverished populace which you are creating ,,,,,,,, and what's this shit about fighting on in europe when everyone else had given into Natzi jackboot , check it out , you were driven into the sea at dunkirk ,, it wasn't the british who beat the germans , it was the Russians who won WW2 , then in rode the yankie doodle dandies with their bugles blowing and their flags a flyin !!!!! And if the people , who ever they may be ,sit on the tube scared that they are going to get stabed by uncle bulgaria then they really are living in the land of winnie the poo !!!!Anyway so the real powers have won again , throo their weapons of mass distraction they have us squabling amoung our selves ,,


Thanks Roddy, I agree you should split away and I will happily wave when you guys go. Its about time you guys stood on your own two feet ,

I suggest you count the dead, wounded and listen to the stories of the survivors a lot of whom belonged to Scottish Regiments, before you slur the memory of those brave guys mate. Ypou dont do yourself or your fellow country men any justice in those comments mate.

Whilst I have no racial axe to grind, I am not racist and have a strong sense of social justice; I dont want one penny of my taxes to go towards supporting anyone else coming to the country, becaue we cannot afford that; not when those peole who fought in the war you mentioned above have to pay £75k toward beiong ill their old age. I dont want to give anything more to anyone else. I have made no mention of not funding anyone already here. P.s that goes for Jocks too; when we split they should all go back and work on the oil rigs whilst they last, or making stoties; or frying mars bars; or dressing in frocks; or squealing through checkered wind bags; or screwing a haggis; well whatever it is you guys get up to when the English aren;t looking :lol: really thoughmate I hope you do achieve independence, along with the irish. We only have to convince the Welsh and job done. You dont want to be here and we dont want you, so a win all around.


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

BLOODY HECK..........Brian did you have a bad day mucker? i love it one minute you are bolloking me for a post and the next defending me against spanders........
cheer up dude, you have holidays coming and a fiance to wed, busy busy boy soon m8. we all get heated on here and at times i do think spandy is a tosser on how he goes about destroying someone using his higher than myself intellect.
Rodders i think is a pot head (maybe) and just loves to wind us all up at times, or he is just misunderstood and frustrated owld hippy (maybe)
either way no blood has been spilled and is only peoples pride hurt occasionally :lol: so fuck it lol


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

BrianR said:


> First I say those things about London because that is how I have experienced the place and because I can, Look, I think my knowledge of the palce is sufficient to know and comment, you may have been there five times longer, but you sound quite a loaner and therefore I doubt you get out very much. Thing about facts that people who love facts hate, is that they can always be challenged cant they, it depends upon what facts you use too doesnt i?. See I like people who go with gut and judge as they find; anyone can spend all day researching to support an argument, I think life is too short. Not only that, it is a pretty one dimensional way of being and pretty boring only to ever have views based upon someone elses hard work;


I gave you my personal impression (a gut feeling, in your language) of getting the tube in london over the last 17 or so years and you told me I was deaf and blind. So I present hard facts and you dismiss them as the work of someone with too much time on their hands.


BrianR said:


> I would like to know what Spandex believes, you only ever comment when you dont agree; you never bring anything new; your views are always the same, pretty negatove; given you only believe in things commited to writing I guess you have been eating a lot of horse lately eh; just because it says it on the tin doesn;t mean its correct. For example the census which says 37% of Londners are not British (which is a pretty big proportion and I am guessing you thought that too and is why you produced it before I could), does not include the 1 Million supposed illegal aliens who live there does it? Which would mean there are more Foreigners in London than English people. So once again your so called 'facts' are only partially correct are they not? As they were when Mark pointed things out a little earlier in this stream. In general though I couldnt give a toss what the census says; or what your facts tell you; I prefer to believe my own eyes and ears and you would need to be deluded not have noticed.


The '1 million illegal imigrants' figure is for the whole of the country, not London. However, with some basic maths, you can see that even increasing the number of foreigners in London by 1 million, English people would still be in the majority

Mark pointed out that I was wrong about Bulgarians sharing the same immigration status as Romanians, however I then posted a link to the Home Office site which confirmed I was right. This completely changed the rest of Marks post, as it showed that Bulgarians were not having the same impact as Romanians despite being allowed into this country for the same amount of time.


BrianR said:


> I use my brain quite a lot and have never said any of those things; this is about you trying to make your argument stronger by abusing and name calling again, when your facts dont make a particularly strong argument, as you did whn you called Gazzer a chimp. Spandex I am very bored debating with you; your views never change, you are always right, you are incapable of forming your own independent view without the facts and statistcs of other bean counters; but ingeneral because debating with you is like being in a cave that has an echo; the same old bollocks continues to come back time and time again; one dimensional Spandex and his one dimensional arguments. You are welcome to them mate, but I am not going to waste another second on you. Cheerio


I'm perfectly capable of forming opinions without facts and statistics, but I like to make sure when I make a statement, I've made some effort to check my facts first. I have no problem with people making statements based purely on gut feeling, but at least have the decency to admit you were wrong when the facts don't back you up.


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

Ha ha !! , there is nothing like an englander scorned !!


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

> I gave you my personal impression (a gut feeling, in your language) of getting the tube in london over the last 17 or so years and you told me I was deaf and blind. So I present hard facts and you dismiss them as the work of someone with too much time on their hands. The '1 million illegal imigrants' figure is for the whole of the country, not London. However, with some basic maths, you can see that even increasing the number of foreigners in London by 1 million, English people would still be in the majority


The numbers I read for aliens in London was 1 Million. Lets say its half of that then. And lets say a very large proportion of the English people living in London are children (dont see many of them on the trains in the morning), so is it not possible that on the trains I travelled on that the vast majority of those travelling could have been none English? I don't need some bean counters interpretation. taken from some census that 50% of the people living there wont have completed, to tell me what I saw and heard. Facts + Spandex = always right; kinsd of arrogant in my view.



> Mark pointed out that I was wrong about Bulgarians sharing the same immigration status as Romanians, however I then posted a link to the Home Office site which confirmed I was right. This completely changed the rest of Marks post, as it showed that Bulgarians were not having the same impact as Romanians despite being allowed into this country for the same amount of time.


Your original argument stated that none of what the press said was true; Marks drew a different picture and that was the point I made. I am sure had Mark or I wished to go digging for additional info that he and I could have come up with more facts to support his argument. That was the point I was making; but with your face buried in google as usual you miss the point.



> I'm perfectly capable of forming opinions without facts and statistics, but I like to make sure when I make a statement, I've made some effort to check my facts first. I have no problem with people making statements based purely on gut feeling, but at least have the decency to admit you were wrong when the facts don't back you up.


[/quote]

If you are then I am yet to see it, except of course when you go below the belt with drinking and chimp remarks, I think then you show the true Spandex. The place is littered with me making statements about my being wrong; when did you last do that? Oh I forgoy, Facts + Mr Google always = Right . so never wrong

I am in that cave again. hello hello hello hello hello hello hello


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

roddy said:


> Ha ha !! , there is nothing like an englander scorned !!


 :lol: Our English history is filled with slaying those who scorn us. We were that good at it that when when our opponents had the odd win, they wrote songs about it and sang it for hundreds of years later. We then simply slay them in a different way with things like rugby or football :lol: Shurrup or we will bring the poll tax back


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

Gazzer said:


> BLOODY HECK..........Brian did you have a bad day mucker? i love it one minute you are bolloking me for a post and the next defending me against spanders........
> cheer up dude, you have holidays coming and a fiance to wed, busy busy boy soon m8. we all get heated on here and at times i do think spandy is a tosser on how he goes about destroying someone using his higher than myself intellect.
> Rodders i think is a pot head (maybe) and just loves to wind us all up at times, or he is just misunderstood and frustrated owld hippy (maybe)
> either way no blood has been spilled and is only peoples pride hurt occasionally :lol: so fuck it lol


Hi Gaz. I didnt bollock you mate, rather I felt I was trying to help you. Constantly baiting Nem wasn't damaging him mate, I felt it was damaging you. I genuinely wasn't heated when I wrote the things I wrote, because I didnt need to be, it may not have been Spandex's or anyone elses truth, but it was mine and I will stick by that and it didn't come from some survey somewhere.

My comments to Roddy were said tongue in cheek and in response to his rant about Englishmen, if it didn't come across like that then to Roddy I say 'sorry Jock, but f#ck off any way


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

poor owld Rodders (big hugs my jock mucker)


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

BrianR said:


> The numbers I read for aliens in London was 1 Million. Lets say its half of that then. And lets say a very large proportion of the English people living in London are children (dont see many of them on the trains in the morning), so is it not possible that on the trains I travelled on that the vast majority of those travelling could have been none English? I don't need some bean counters interpretation. taken from some census that 50% of the people living there wont have completed, to tell me what I saw and heard. Facts + Spandex = always right; kinsd of arrogant in my view.


You still haven't explained why you dismissed my 'gut feeling' out of hand despite me having more experience of travelling in London. You say you like people who go with their gut, but you seemed not to like it when I did.

Lets go back to your original statement that started this, because despite not needing facts, you're now making up figures and scenarios in order to disprove mine, and that's just going to take us further away from the point:


> we no longer know who we are; ride a tube in London and I guarantee you, you probably wont see another English face (before anyone jumps up and down, i include all ethnic backgounds born here as English)


Do you genuinely still believe that this is an accurate statement? You believe that someone coming to London and getting on a train, will 'probably not see another English face' (assuming they know what that looks like)? Also, how you you personally go about identifying an English face (especially when you said no one talks on the tube)?

To be honest, I think you wanted to illustrate your point that "we no longer know who we are" so you chose the most multicultural city in England and massively exaggerated the fact that there will be a lot of foreigners on the trains. You didn't like that I disagreed with you, regardless of whether or not I was right, so you refuse to back down because you don't like me, not because you actually believe the point you made was factually accurate.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

BrianR said:


> Spandex said:
> 
> 
> > Mark pointed out that I was wrong about Bulgarians sharing the same immigration status as Romanians, however I then posted a link to the Home Office site which confirmed I was right. This completely changed the rest of Marks post, as it showed that Bulgarians were not having the same impact as Romanians despite being allowed into this country for the same amount of time.
> ...


My original argument was that Bulgarians have been allowed in this country for years, so if Bulgarian criminals wanted to come here, they already can. Because of this I didn't believe we would see an influx of Bulgarian criminals when the rules regarding work permits were changed. Marks additional info related to Romanian criminals, and actually backed up my point (and at no point have I disagreed with Marks comments, apart from the bit about immigration status), because Romanians share the same immigration status with Bulgarians.

Both nationalities have been allowed to freely enter and live in the UK since 2007. Romanians have caused problems here, but Bulgarians haven't. Therefore, it's safe to assume that for whatever reasons, Bulgarian criminals are less interested in the UK than Romanian criminals. With that being the case, there is even less reason to expect Bulgarians to start causing trouble when the work permit rules change. Criminals don't need work permits.


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

I know we are not competitive at rugby or footy , but we have produced more good drivers than yoo lot ,, ( and not just me !! :lol: )


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

> To be honest, I think you wanted to illustrate your point that "we no longer know who we are" so you chose the most multicultural city in England and massively exaggerated the fact that there will be a lot of foreigners on the trains. You didn't like that I disagreed with you, regardless of whether or not I was right, so you refuse to back down because you don't like me, not because you actually believe the point you made was factually accurate.


[/quote]

Did you sat that 30+% of those living on London are not enlish? For your info that is a lot. It is almost a third. Once again you bring more facts, same old same old. I didn't respond to your gut feeling because you are entitled to it and I am noone to challange your gut feeling based upon your own experience and noone elses. I didn't like that you disagreed with me? You always disagree with me :lol: I dont like you? I dont know you well enough not to like you Spandex? If I dont like anything it is your way of being, and by the way you are entitled to not like mine mate (I am sure you won't have to try too hard).

I genuinely couldnt be arsed going around in more circles and on that basis chose not to respond to your other points;Its been a long day at work and I am tired. I responded to the above because for the first time for a long time I felt like I was having a real conversation with a real person. What I am trying to work out is why it is sooooo important for you to always be right?? Its extreme chap, why do you care so mucn? Noone else does. I;m done on this subject now Spandex; you have won, you are the best, but most of all you are right. Off for my tea - have fun.


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

roddy said:


> I know we are not competitive at rugby or footy , but we have produced more good drivers than yoo lot ,, ( and not just me !! :lol: )


Name em - I will start - Jackie Stewart


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

roddy said:


> I know we are not competitive at rugby or footy , but we have produced more good drivers than yoo lot ,, ( and not just me !! :lol: )


Agreed - name em - I will start - Jackie Stewart


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

spandy tbh you jumped on Roddy for his world domination aspect and yet you have continually gone back at Brian on every single point to disprove every point he has said. i notice you do this a lot, read what someone writes and then rip it apart point by point to the extent that i think even jesus would lose patience and snap!!!
you do this on every thread and yes it looks good as you come across as very intelligent, however it also smacks of insecurity in having to win every debate..........Brian was right in his statement that not once have you as far as i have seen apollogised for being wrong! if you even think that maybe you are wrong? god knows.......lighten up ya pussy, its a car forum and humour and banter is all part of the daily grind.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

Gazzer said:


> spandy tbh you jumped on Roddy for his world domination aspect and yet you have continually gone back at Brian on every single point to disprove every point he has said. i notice you do this a lot, read what someone writes and then rip it apart point by point to the extent that i think even jesus would lose patience and snap!!!
> you do this on every thread and yes it looks good as you come across as very intelligent, however it also smacks of insecurity in having to win every debate..........Brian was right in his statement that not once have you as far as i have seen apollogised for being wrong! if you even think that maybe you are wrong? god knows.......lighten up ya pussy, its a car forum and humour and banter is all part of the daily grind.


Look, at the end of the day Brian made an outrageous exaggeration about probably not seeing another 'English face' on the tube and I called him on it. If he'd said it about another city, I might have thought it was odd, or hard to believe, but I wouldn't have mentioned it. But he said it about a city I've lived and worked in for many years so I know it's bollocks. I'm not pedantically picking apart a complex argument here, I'm just saying that one thing isn't true.


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

I don't know why you are jumping on spandy here , ok he has his faults. like personalising arguments and attempting character assisination when he cant win his point , but he is right in this , that the bulgarians are not nessesarily the threat that the weapon of mass distraction , daily mail , has made them out to be and that he does have more experience , thankfully , of london tubes than most of us do ..........
OK ,,, Jackie Stewart ,, Jim Clark , Colin McRae , all three recognised as greats , who have yoo lot got ,,, Mansel , burns , Hunt , not in same class , sorry. , :wink:


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

roddy said:


> I don't know why you are jumping on spandy here , ok he has his faults. like personalising arguments and attempting character assisination when he cant win his point , but he is right in this , that the bulgarians are not nessesarily the threat that the weapon of mass distraction , daily mail , has made them out to be and that he does have more experience , thankfully , of london tubes than most of us do ..........
> OK ,,, Jackie Stewart ,, Jim Clark , Colin McRae , all three recognised as greats , who have yoo lot got ,,, Mansel , burns , Hunt , not in same class , sorry. , :wink:


Well they didnt crash as often as Stewart I will give you that :lol: what about the modern boys like Button and Lewis


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

Spandex said:


> Gazzer said:
> 
> 
> > spandy tbh you jumped on Roddy for his world domination aspect and yet you have continually gone back at Brian on every single point to disprove every point he has said. i notice you do this a lot, read what someone writes and then rip it apart point by point to the extent that i think even jesus would lose patience and snap!!!
> ...


quick anology of a guy who worked on my section a few years back........this guy could and would argue the point with everyone on the section to the extent of rows being caused and me losing production over it!!! so i had him in the office one day and just asked him why he had to win every arguement............he just said it is because i am right! so i asked him if the rest of the machine shop were wrong, or was it him? he simply replied it isnt me it's them!!!!
that spandy is how you come across a lot of the time.


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

I am a big fan of both Lewus and Button , both very good and better than anything we are puting up just now , but not yet priven to be greats , maybe in due course,


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

roddy said:


> I don't know why you are jumping on spandy here , ok he has his faults. like personalising arguments and attempting character assisination when he cant win his point , but he is right in this , that the bulgarians are not nessesarily the threat that the weapon of mass distraction , daily mail , has made them out to be and that he does have more experience , thankfully , of london tubes than most of us do ..........
> OK ,,, Jackie Stewart ,, Jim Clark , Colin McRae , all three recognised as greats , who have yoo lot got ,,, Mansel , burns , Hunt , not in same class , sorry. , :wink:


Mansel not in same class??? fuck off you muppet......won f1 then went and taught yanks how to win in his first season over there..........no other driver has ever done that!!!!
jackie stewart won f1 then promoted hair cream lol :? now you want to do it over differing wheeled sports.........


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

Gazzer said:


> quick anology of a guy who worked on my section a few years back........this guy could and would argue the point with everyone on the section to the extent of rows being caused and me losing production over it!!! so i had him in the office one day and just asked him why he had to win every arguement............he just said it is because i am right! so i asked him if the rest of the machine shop were wrong, or was it him? he simply replied it isnt me it's them!!!!
> that spandy is how you come across a lot of the time.


Yes, you've mentioned that person before. I can honestly say I've never had a row with anyone in work, and haven't fallen out with any friends either. The only people I regularly end up arguing with on here are Brian, Roddy and yourself. The only people who say that I argue with everyone are Brian, Roddy and yourself. The three of you are also frequently in arguments I'm not involved in.


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

> Yes, you've mentioned that person before. I can honestly say I've never had a row with anyone in work, and haven't fallen out with any friends either. The only people I regularly end up arguing with on here are Brian, Roddy and yourself. The only people who say that I argue with everyone are Brian, Roddy and yourself. The three of you are also frequently in arguments I'm not involved in.


[/quote]

I wouldnt say I am frequently involved in arguments, certainly no more than you Spandex, sure I may have a go at the odd troll who is abusing me, but they always start that. We only have your word about the rest which I accept; I believe though that at work you are likely more acceptant of the views of others, so on a daily basis are not shoving research under their noses to prove them wrong, or calling them chimps or drunks, or that you work with like minded people. Start doing the things at work that you do here and you may have a few more arguments; speak to the people at work with the scorn I sense in some of your words to me at times and again you may have a few more arguments. As no doubt would I.

In general though and in the flame room I think the people you speak with most (longer conversations)
are Gaz, Roddy and I and therefore you will likely disagree most with us three more than anyone else. I didnt say you argue with everyone else, I said that in this place your way of being is difficult to exerience for me; It would appear that to the most part that you only appear when telling someone that they are wrong and the telling them just how wrong. That is bound to get the backs up of some, others will no doubt be a little intimidated and say nothing and others will agree with you. None of this makes you or anyone else bad people, this is just a forum for car enthusiasts and we are bound to meet people that we personally find difficult or often disagree with. Like I said in a mail in another stream, as a large contributor the place would not be as good without you here; I didnt see a thanks for saying that but didnt expect one, and thats what I mean.


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

Spandex said:


> Gazzer said:
> 
> 
> > quick anology of a guy who worked on my section a few years back........this guy could and would argue the point with everyone on the section to the extent of rows being caused and me losing production over it!!! so i had him in the office one day and just asked him why he had to win every arguement............he just said it is because i am right! so i asked him if the rest of the machine shop were wrong, or was it him? he simply replied it isnt me it's them!!!!
> ...


i think your own logic dictates that if the only people you end up rowing with are us three and we have good banter and hardly ever row amongst ourselves........i have to say it again (are you sure its not you) :lol: even having stated my point for me you will come back and argue the toss i know you will. made me chuckle in your reply.....thanks for that lol


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

Gazzer said:


> i think your own logic dictates that if the only people you end up rowing with are us three and we have good banter and hardly ever row amongst ourselves........i have to say it again (are you sure its not you) :lol: even having stated my point for me you will come back and argue the toss i know you will. made me chuckle in your reply.....thanks for that lol


I suppose at least Brian was arguing about the subject of the thread. You, once again, came in purely to just argue with me about... Erm... What are you arguing with me about again? You're arguing with me about how it's my fault you're arguing with me, yes? :lol:


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

I heard that the Bulgarians will argue with anyone about anything ,,,,, fook me !!!!!


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

roddy said:


> I heard that the Bulgarians will argue with anyone about anything ,,,,, fook me !!!!!


You didn't read that in a Daily Mail article, did you? :wink:


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

A friend of a friends sister read it there ,, but not me , honest !!!!


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

Spandex said:


> Gazzer said:
> 
> 
> > i think your own logic dictates that if the only people you end up rowing with are us three and we have good banter and hardly ever row amongst ourselves........i have to say it again (are you sure its not you) :lol: even having stated my point for me you will come back and argue the toss i know you will. made me chuckle in your reply.....thanks for that lol
> ...


i wasn't arguing with you ya plonk......i was making a point, it was you who came back at me lol. as it takes two to argue i will leave you too it and as more leave the thread........you can go back to digging roddars out for british world domination and raping of assets. :lol: :lol:


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## c15 ttt (Dec 3, 2010)

i can see love blossoming again.wouldnt be called the flame room if it wasnt for you lot and its why its the most interesting section of the forum.its all good chaps.


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

Happy valentines day peeps :-*


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

roddy said:


> Happy valentines day peeps :-*


Cheers. I got your card. Not sure what a "reach around" is though. Some sort of cocktail?


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

Spandex said:


> roddy said:
> 
> 
> > Happy valentines day peeps :-*
> ...


did you actually post this??? omfg.........spandy ya perv lol


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