# Turbo Issues



## simon221174 (Feb 23, 2019)

Had my TT TDI remapped about 8 months ago and recently experiencing some excess air noise, normally at lower rev's

I'm assuming its overboost from the turbo?

Need help interpreting this OBDEleven live data chart

Charge Air Pressure against Charge Air before throttle valve,.

first pic is sat at Idle








and second pic is me putting my foot down, do these seem normal readings or are they on the excessive side?









Cheers guys


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## no name (Feb 16, 2014)

Get the map removed and then see if problem persists.


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## macaddict111 (Jun 13, 2018)

placeborick said:


> Get the map removed and then see if problem persists.


Amen. Expecting your car to operate in a manner it was never designed, then coming to people for help when that causes problems seems disingenuous to me.


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## pistonbroke (Jun 3, 2019)

If you can suddenly hear more air noise, I'd check for an air leak. Either a split hose or one's come loose. Since mapping your no doubt running higher boost outside manufacturers spec. Check all hoses from turbo to intercooler, to intake.


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## ross_t_boss (Feb 28, 2017)

I don't get why anyone would have issue with someone asking for help interpreting logs, tuned or not, that's what "community" is all about. If you get bend outta shape about it, perhaps don't bother posting.

Did you take any baseline figures to compare? Any performance loss? Have you run these logs by the tuner and asked them to verify it >> my remap is with Unitronic and they are great at reviewing any interpreting logs to confirm if behaviour is normal or not post-mapping.

That's a request vs actual on charge pressure, and it is not making requested boost. That could be normal if the tune expecting say an intake kit fitted and the OEM is too restrictive for the extra demand. Equally as stated, a leak or split could be the culprit (and easily identifiable if you know it previously made the demanded boost) - sounds most likely if you have increased noise - follow pistonbroke's advice first.

Sometimes those clip coupling come loose under increased load, or they wear and come a little loose, I had that on an old Golf TDI and it wasn't immediately obvious because nothing had 'popped' it was just a bit loose.

May be useful to log charge pressure control (actual) and see if the turbo is maxxed out at 100% as well, just in case there's something else going on although not likely if you're hearing increased noise.


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## HAXTiME (Jun 29, 2019)

If you hear air noise (and a corresponding drop in turbo boost performance), then it's 99% that the air is leaking somewhere between the turbo and the engine intake.

It's an ugly issue, especially with diesel engines, because it's usually accompanied by excess amounts of extra black smoke coming from the exhausts, caused by improper burning. However, in most cases it's just an air leak on the tube somewhere, and the fix should be dirt cheap; on my previous car I just slapped some duct tape on the turbo tube + some cable ties to reinforce the duct tape, and it was working perfectly LOL. Common symptoms also include minor amounts of oil being sprayed along the turbo tube leak.

Get it fixed before you need a filter replaced, but as long as you seek out a fix, it's probably nothing major.


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

Just take it to the dealers, let them know you've mapped it and are getting air noises and im sure they'll help diagnose the problem. No one here can really help without seeing it to be fair. Could be lots of things.


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## macaddict111 (Jun 13, 2018)

ross_t_boss said:


> I don't get why anyone would have issue with someone asking for help interpreting logs, tuned or not, that's what "community" is all about. If you get bend outta shape about it, perhaps don't bother posting.


I get what you're saying, I'm not gonna call someone an idiot for "tuning" their car it's a free country (hopefully wherever you live), but to be honest it seems a bit like going to your doctor and saying "I have this constant cough and my breath is terrible and I get sick all the time it's really affecting my life", and the doctor says "well you smoke cigarettes, have you considered quitting or switching to a vape?", and then you go "oh no that shouldn't be necessary". The advice from me as an engineer is: hundreds of engineers POURED over this engine to get a generally immaculate balance of power, refinement, fuel economy, reliability, and proper emissions, and then someone throws that all out, decides to completely change how the engine behaves in fundamental ways, and then wants help fixing the malfunction, but still wants to keep the map. Mapping is quite literally like drugs for your engine! Nothing is free, it's going to catch up sooner or later. Maybe someone doesn't care about emitting 10x what they really should be, or is OK blowing an engine at 90k miles, but the smart advice that was already mentioned was "remove the map". That's what caused the problem, and taking it away is what'll fix it. If you really want that extra 50 horsepower, jump to the RS instead, or an R8, idk...

I guess it's tough for me to see people doing something that's fundamentally problematic, but then want the "yeah but can I keep the cigarettes and ditch the cough?" advice. It's like no... Just use a vape, ditch the map... Rant over...


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## Blade Runner (Feb 16, 2018)

If you are experiencing excessive air noise, there is a problem (whatever the OBD11 data indicates)
The problem may be related to the previous remap, but you can't be absolutely sure about that. As with most diagnostics, it's a process of elimination. If a quick physical check of the hoses does not reveal any obvious problems, get the engine mapping set back to stock (as advised) and see if problem disappears, or at least reduces. Any reputable mapping company should be able to do this quickly and should also be able to tell you whether what you experienced is a 'known issue' with that particular map on that car. Just bear in mind that if the noise subsides it does not necessarily mean that the problem has been fixed. It may mean, for example, that a damaged hose simply does not leak as much at lower (i.e. normal) pressure.

If the mapping company are unhelpful (many are when things go wrong, unfortunately) I would go to a trusted local Indy first, as taking it to a main Audi dealer is definitely "tail between legs" time and would affect your warranty (if there is any remaining). They will also charge you 'full whack' (approx. £130 per hour) for their labour.

The wider issue, as pointed out by macaddict111, is that remapping (even stage 1) will put a strain on certain engine components that weren't designed to handle the extra power, boost etc. You then get into a cycle of upgrading other components (turbo, air intake, hoses, brakes, clutch, etc) and things start to get very expensive. Serious modders love doing this stuff, and fair play to them. Its how they like to spend their money and their time. However, many others go the 'cheap and cheerful' (chip only) route and hope to get away with it. Some will, some won't. You roll the dice and take your chances.


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## kevin#34 (Jan 8, 2019)

I partially disagree with what has been said about remapping; a stage 1 just let the engine to run freely and perform 100% of its potential, being not restricted by the OEM map that must take in account primarily emissions, fuel consumption, noise etc...
from stage 2-on, it's another matter and having engine components extra wear can be reasonable


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

Its doesn't though, it puts it at over 100%. The engines in question are not the lower outputs and you are just move it up to the next purchase level. the 20T is not designed to run at the TTS level for example regardless of what the stage one can yield, otherwise why would Audi bother to make all the changes to the internals? They wouldn't. It's all cost and lost profit. The Engine is designed to a level and time line, in the same way a race engine is only designed to run for a very short life but with huge power. Up the power longevity is impacted.

I don't agree with removing the map and not telling the dealers, thats simply outright deception and impacts everyone going forward. Just man up and take it if it is a problem after the map. May not be, might just be a hose or something completely unrelated but you do need to get it to a qualified person rather than a forum of speculation.


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## macaddict111 (Jun 13, 2018)

Toshiba said:


> Its doesn't though, it puts it at over 100%. The engines in question are not the lower outputs and you are just move it up to the next purchase level. the 20T is not designed to run at the TTS level for example regardless of what the stage one can yield, otherwise why would Audi bother to make all the changes to the internals?


Exactly. There's this notion in modding circles that automakers intentionally software-limit their engines and that all you need to do to "unlock" NN extra horsepower is a map. Ironically the thing we've actually seen from VAG is a willingness to _overdrive_ the engines via software (diesel emissions scandal). No car company in the world says "we're gonna spend $NNNN on making an engine that can put out 250 HP but only allow it to make 220 via software." That means the engine costs more to make than it really should for the car and is heavier than it should be, both of which put the automaker at a competitive disadvantage. About the only car company doing software-locks is Tesla, and we won't get into them here. *puke emoji*

In actuality, the OEM map is sort of like the icing on the cake for an already-designed engine. It's the final dressing after a LOT of reliability testing and simulation that ensures they get every ounce of power out of the engine while also making it last for the life of the car and meet emissions requirements (well, we hope *glares at VAG*). They WANT to make the engine as powerful as possible, because every ounce of power they get out of the OEM map is like free money and competitive advantage for the automaker.

Again, if modding is your thing, and you understand that any deviation from the OEM map is going to make the engine not last as long, use way more fuel and emit 10-100X more than it should and you're willing to follow that rabbit hole to the bottom and upgrade internals and deal with failures, power to you. Just don't be surprised *when* that happens.


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## ross_t_boss (Feb 28, 2017)

If you are not prepared to understand what's being modified, the impacts, and the additional risk, then best not to tune. As the saying goes, "you pay to play". Probably the best advice that's been said is take the car to a specialist - you'll likely get a big labour bill and a report saying they can't/won't fix it due to x modification. Which is absolutely fair enough. Not all dealers are equal, if you have a decent relationship with them and disclose the mods they will be reasonable about it (certainly in the BMW world I've see this).

A decent specialist might have it diagnosed and repaired with a smaller bill, but the biggest risk IMO with modifying is who you're dealing with. i've been burned before and seen countless others the same with cowboys. It's easy to slap a generic map on a car for a few hundred quid that ups boost and fuelling - but the car has running issues, doesn't have other supporting modifications, and hasn't been well serviced - and then leave the owner wonder why it lets go 5k down the road.

I can't fully agree regarding OEM software being the icing on the cake though... they are setting targets and hitting them, working to tolerances and failure rates, emissions, and economy; consistency also. You start playing with these parameters and you can unlock potential that the engineers didn't want to, for their own good reasons. When a manufacturer releases a 'Plus' model, in-house tuning packages etc with a simple remap and maybe a few hardware tweaks, they can do that because they engineered plenty of headroom originally.

Failure rate is a big consideration. Let's say you push the turbo to 100,000 rpm and typically have 1% failure by 50k miles. Push that to 120,000 rpm and perhaps you have 2% failure rate. But push it to 130,000 rpm and that might now be 20% at 50k and near 100% at 100k. The OEM choice is to stick at 100k. The sensible tuner hits 120k, with the owner understanding he just doubled a small but real risk of a failure. Some will push it to 130k, and that's where the bad reputation starts with modifying... Engines don't just "blow up", there is always a cause, often avoidable.

In summary; go in with your eyes wide open - yes I agree there is no free lunch - you may well need to modify lots of supporting components to do it reliably. Expect shorter service intervals, increased wear on consumables and ultimately faster engine wear. If something is going wrong there is less margin for error so you should be health checking, with logs, between service intervals. But with this approach the car can be just as reliable as stock.

I have run multiple cars with well over 100k on the clock, making 20-30% power and 40-50% more torque for most of their life. I've had a few failures in my time, sometimes as a result of pushing things too far that needed supporting mods or sometimes just finding a weak spot that may have still been just OK to survive stock power. Ironically the most OEM part failures I've had were on a Golf MK4 that was never modified :lol:


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## kevin#34 (Jan 8, 2019)

prior to the highest power there are emissions and fuel consumption targets, this is the common automotive rule....
and you get them via the most lean air/fuel ratio sustainable by the engine... 
while to get the highest power, you would need to burn more fuel (equals to a slightly less than 14.1 stoichiometric ratio).
In conclusion, highest power would mean highest emissions and fuel consumption



macaddict111 said:


> Toshiba said:
> 
> 
> > Its doesn't though, it puts it at over 100%. The engines in question are not the lower outputs and you are just move it up to the next purchase level. the 20T is not designed to run at the TTS level for example regardless of what the stage one can yield, otherwise why would Audi bother to make all the changes to the internals?
> ...


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## captainhero17 (Apr 10, 2018)

kevin#34
There is logic to that no doubt. However ABT offers a remap that turns TT in to TTS power wise (80hp increase). Aside from numbers (which are disappointingly low in terms of improvement) the emission levels haven't risen, according to ABT official spec sheet.

Sounds illogical but that's what they wrote.


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## macaddict111 (Jun 13, 2018)

captainhero17 said:


> kevin#34
> There is logic to that no doubt. However ABT offers a remap that turns TT in to TTS power wise (80hp increase). Aside from numbers (which are disappointingly low in terms of improvement) the emission levels haven't risen, according to ABT official spec sheet.
> 
> Sounds illogical but that's what they wrote.


I guess Audi switches out those dozens of engine parts on the TTS just for fun then... lol


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## phazer (Apr 2, 2018)

Audi replace those parts to hit the reliability metric they want for that power output. Bear in mind they don't dictate how that power is used, you could ring its neck all day every day and warranty pays up. Oh and launch control with no limits too.

As was explained above for manufacturers it isn't about cheapness or ringing the performance out of the model, it's a cost vs return argument. Having an engine with a chunk of head room allows you to hit the reliability you desire reducing warranty costs which presumably more than offsets the additional engineering costs of the engine headroom.

That's before you get to the planned obsolescence side of things. You think when Audi create an engine platform and release a 210BHP version they haven't already figured a revision to 225 and then 240 with a facelift?

In fact they did it with the Golf R/S3. First models were 300PS, then bumped to 310PS in a revision (now back down to 300PS due to GPF but meh).


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## captainhero17 (Apr 10, 2018)

macaddict111 said:


> captainhero17 said:
> 
> 
> > kevin#34
> ...


I don't think that you understood my post. I simply said that I was looking at ABT remapping (80hp increase) and among the comparable stats. The co2 levels per g haven't increased despite 80hp power increase. Which is either amazing or not true. But I doubt ABT would outright lie.

I too believe that wit any remapping or tuning the CO2 per g should increase. Pure logic. That is why the ABT spec sheet confuses me.


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## phazer (Apr 2, 2018)

The CO2 can remain constant between two different maps as it's an average output. In order to map the car the way the manufacturer needs and wants there are bound to be parts of the map that are less efficient - a sacrifice made to keep the driveability/desired performance/0-60 time - you know those are engineered so a "lower" version doesn't outperform "higher" model yes?

When mapping the tuner undoubtedly pushes hard under full throttle which is likely to increase emissions but makes improvements in those other areas to improve emissions so it averages out.

That said more power isn't necessarily less efficient hence it is possible to get more power for less fuel and therefore less CO2.

At the end of the day the tuner has one aim, to make as much performance as is sensible from the engine. The manufacturer has many many different targets to balance.


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## ross_t_boss (Feb 28, 2017)

At one end of the spectrum you have 'tuners' turning wastegate screws pushing more target boost or tuning boxes injecting more fuel, 'fooling' the ECU. Maybe even disabling ECU fail-safes to prevent it going to limp-mode when outside of expected parameters. These will be terrible for reliability and emissions.

At the other end of the scale you tuners understanding and calibrating the many, many 'maps' covering all aspects of the engine behaviour and variations in operating conditions. These can perform similar to the OEM calibration in terms of reliability and performance in respect to emissions, on a standard cycle.

Expanding on Kevin34's point, when you burn more fuel it obviously generates more emissions, but only on demand. On cruise, all things being the same, it shouldn't make a difference. The engine is operating 'closed loop', maintaining a slight oscillation around the Stoichiometric ratio, OEM or mapped. However when things are turned up this is where the tuner is going to run richer than OEM. Say OEM might be pushing modest boost and 12.5:1 AFR under peak load, the tuner runs high boost and say 11:1. More power = more heat, so extra fuel is required to reduce EGTs to a safe level and detonation risk, and protect the tuners reputation! Rich = lower economy and higher emissions.


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## captainhero17 (Apr 10, 2018)

ross_tt_boss
Well put my friend. I however do not care (I stopped caring) in practice about CO2 emissions. As long as I get the paper that puts me in as low road tax as possible.

I think its silly to talk about CO2 emissions and force Europe to drive toys (in order to save planet) while countries like USA and UAE drive cars with minimum of 3.0 v6 and CO2 per gram that can make a Soviet t54 blush.

Nothing against USA people. But I think it sucks to be forced in to this law/culture. Like being forced to rake laves and then someone comes with a leaf blower and destroys your pile.

Either we all drive toys or all enjoy our fossil cars as long as we can. Europe is the least settled continent anyways. But we are the most strict? Why?


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