# RS4 beats M3 in today's Autocar



## damo (May 7, 2002)

'Faster, roomier, better looking, more communicative...you name it, the RS4 takes it, often only by the narrowest of margins. But by a clear margin nonetheless'.

'The RS4 is king'.


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

Niiiiiice 8)


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

Cool. Can anyone post a pic of the RS4 coupe, or M3 Avant/slaoon? :wink:


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## vassy (Jul 31, 2006)

Good


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## CH_Peter (May 16, 2002)

Enter Leg, stage left... :wink:


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## The Silver Surfer (May 14, 2002)

CH_Peter said:


> Enter Leg, stage left... :wink:


 :lol:

"Roomier" - You don't say! It's a four door saloon, of course it's going to be roomier.

"Better looking" - Looks are purely subjective.


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## S10TYG (Mar 7, 2007)

hmmmm. ones a saloon, ones a coupe, so better looking-hmmm can't really compare. 2 different types of cars IMO just the same powerbracket.


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

garyc said:


> Cool. Can anyone post a pic of the RS4 coupe, or M3 Avant/slaoon? :wink:


Gary, you know already the M3 Saloon is on it's way & rumour has it a Touring will also be launched. It's only a Coupe in the A4 that Audi don't have, as both the M3 & RS4 have/had Estate, Saloon & Convertible.

Chances are given both those derivatives will be heavier that the Coupe, the crown will even more fall in Audi's lap 

Better still, the CSL is expected to be between Â£15K & 20K more expensive than the Coupe, so if it's pushing Â£70K then it will fall very close at the feet of the R8 (albeit in a very basic trim), however the CSL will also be bare to save weight, so perhaps Audi really do have the upper hand for now.

Just need the RS6 to out perform the M5 & they'll almost have the market dominated.

Was a tad surprised when i read in AE today, that Audi have launched the A/S5 to compete head on with the 3 Series Coupe, which seems odd as it's quite a bit bigger than the A4 & 3 Series & according to the report, it's the S5 up against the 335i :?


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## S10TYG (Mar 7, 2007)

W7 PMC said:


> Just need the RS6 to out perform the M5 & they'll almost have the market dominated.


V10 Turbo - isn't it? I read somewhere we're talking 550bhp+ ?

So that's the M5 dead and forgotten.


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

S10TYG said:


> W7 PMC said:
> 
> 
> > Just need the RS6 to out perform the M5 & they'll almost have the market dominated.
> ...


Kinda looks that way.

The rumour mill is rife currently & it's assumed the V10 R8 will have the same engine Audi intend to use in the RS6, which is expected to be a sequential Bi-Turbo V10 with reports that power will be somewhere between 530 & 580BHP. If that's the case, the RS6 would have to be woeful not to take the lead in that sector from the M5 & that engine in an R8 would surely set the sports car world alight.

Got a deposit down on both the new RS6 & RS5, so we'll just have to see what happens later this year & early next year.


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

Of course. I think it's all good news. And it is all marginal, so plenty of room for tweaks and evolutions to up the ante.

I think it is just all getting far closer in that performance/cost bracket. BMW have forced first Audi and now MB to raise their games against M3. Everyone benefits. :wink:

Whilst the CSL may be more costly - that may not be that much sicne items like costly carbon roof on e46 have been standardised, the CS e46 ended up at same price as std M3 and reportedly best of the bunch, so that would likely be happening sooner rather than later.

The RS5 will be interesting to see benchmarked aginst the next CLK 63 and M3.

It does seem BMW have played it quite safe and soft with this first version.


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## Carlos (May 6, 2002)

So the outgoing, now obsolete RS4 beats new M3.

Great job, BMW.


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

garyc said:


> Of course. I think it's all good news. And it is all marginal, so plenty of room for tweaks and evolutions to up the ante.
> 
> I think it is just all getting far closer in that performance/cost bracket. BMW have forced first Audi and now MB to raise their games against M3. Everyone benefits. :wink:
> 
> ...


Totally agree. I never really understood the differences in the CS over std M3??. I know the previous CSL was a huge chunk more than the std & the CS & that's expected with the new M3 & i've heard around Â£15-20K more expensive, which is a shed load of cash for a 3 series.

Can't wait to see what the C63 will be like & as you say, everyone appears to be raising their game, however i feel BMW could have pushed their envelope a little more. As Carl says, BMW have really missed a trick if their new car is still seen as a lesser option than Audi's outgoing car.


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## Carlos (May 6, 2002)

Plus they tried to sell the E46 CSL for Â£57k and it didn't really work for them. Given what happened to the E46 CSL (which along with the M6 must be the fastest depreciating car this side of Â£100k in their first year), who will stump up ther cash for a new CSL?

I've no doubt the E92 CSL will be brilliant, but if you try and sell it for nigh-on Â£70k, how many will actually ever be built?

From now on I am unilaterally referring to the M3 as the 340i.


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

W7 PMC said:


> garyc said:
> 
> 
> > Of course. I think it's all good news. And it is all marginal, so plenty of room for tweaks and evolutions to up the ante.
> ...


I think the CS did without the CF roof, extra 15 ecu HP, and Cup tyres/superlight rims. But it had the improved steering rack , suspension settinsg and brakes. ie it handled and steered much better.

We have yet to see a full UK road test. I am surprised if BMW have dropped the ball. Maybe they are just marketing it to their target customers in Â£50K space, and will roll the harder core CS or evos to the track fans later.

Of course if you take Autocar at their word, the outgoing e46 M3 CS and CSL is therefore better than the E92 M3 - since that car regularly 'beat' the RS4 in tests. One has to define 'better' in context.


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

Carlos said:


> Plus they tried to sell the E46 CSL for Â£57k and it didn't really work for them. Given what happened to the E46 CSL (which along with the M6 must be the fastest depreciating car this side of Â£100k in their first year), who will stump up ther cash for a new CSL?
> 
> I've no doubt the E92 CSL will be brilliant, but if you try and sell it for nigh-on Â£70k, how many will actually ever be built?
> 
> From now on I am unilaterally referring to the M3 as the 340i.


LOL at 340i. Major cost item on e46 csl was CF roof. Not an issue now it is stock.

I guess they (BMW) could always take the engine from the M3 and stick it in a mid engined sports coupe body with few LEDs and then charge Â£90k for it. :idea:


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

garyc said:


> W7 PMC said:
> 
> 
> > garyc said:
> ...


I don't ever recall the CS beating the RS4, however i may well have missed those reports & can only clearly remember the 5th Gear head to head at Combe. Everything i read/watched, had the RS4 pipping the previous M3, with the exception of the CSL which lost ground as an all-rounder, however moved well ahead as a track car. That said, the margins with the previous model were not massive for the RS4 & it was always fairly close, which makes these results coming through for the new one even more surprising.

Fully expected the M3 to take a jump, but the power without control scenario must have shone badly on the new M3, as that extra dollop of power appears to have made it more lardy in general.

Believe me, i'm surprised at the results coming in, but i can't lie & say i'm not glad the press are putting the RS4 ahead. It's bound to help the residuals a tad now the RS4 is no longer in production.


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## tehdarkstar (Jul 24, 2006)

garyc said:


> Of course if you take Autocar at their word, the outgoing e46 M3 CS and CSL is therefore better than the E92 M3 - since that car regularly 'beat' the RS4 in tests. One has to define 'better' in context.


There's a box in the article in which they say exactly that:



> There's no getting away with it: the fact that the RS4 beats the new M3 in a straight fight is one of the year's big upsets, mainly because we didn't see it coming.
> ...
> Only last year, in fact, we compared the last and final evolution of the old M3, the CS, with the RS4 and concluded that, overall, the BMW just about nicked it. Does that mean we think the new V8 M3 isn't as good a car as the last and best version of the old straight six M3? You are welcome, as they say, to draw your own conclusions.


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

Thats a yes then :lol:


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## raven (May 7, 2002)

It's all about expectations. The old M3 was better than it should have been for an about to be replaced car, and the new M3 is not as good as it should be for a new car. Obviously the new M3 is"better" than the old M3, it just falls down on an expectation level.


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

garyc said:


> Carlos said:
> 
> 
> > Plus they tried to sell the E46 CSL for Â£57k and it didn't really work for them. Given what happened to the E46 CSL (which along with the M6 must be the fastest depreciating car this side of Â£100k in their first year), who will stump up ther cash for a new CSL?
> ...


2 things.

If the CF roof is now 'standard' where are they going to find additiona weight and balance savings for the CSL? Bonnet? :lol:

Point is, if the new M3 with a CF roof isn't as good as an RS4 without one, BMW may be running out of options to get an end product which is substantially better.

Secondly, if they released a mid-engined sports coupe, things would get very interesting indeed. :wink:

With the quality of their interiors and their general mass-market brand perception, I feel BMW are no longer on the same 'premium' brand level as Audi - rightly or wrongly.

Sure, in the 5 series, they've got something comfortable and workmanlike, but they're planning a Z2 to compete with the Mazda MX5, and planning to push the Z4 firmly up to Boxster competitor which spreads their range a bit, and lets face it - the 3 series is barely more interesting than your average Mondeo, and not quite as well styled. The A4 is a nicer place to be, and the S and RS Audi cars seem to be getting the upper hand too...


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

Mondeo is a much better car than the 3 series and more exclusive :lol:


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## tehdarkstar (Jul 24, 2006)

Toshiba said:


> Mondeo is a much better car than the 3 series and more exclusive :lol:


And looks better, and costs a lot less... But guess what, a lot of people wouldn't dare to drive a car with the Ford badge...


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## tehdarkstar (Jul 24, 2006)

jampott said:


> With the quality of their interiors and their general mass-market brand perception, I feel BMW are no longer on the same 'premium' brand level as Audi - rightly or wrongly.


What BMW had going for them was that they were in a class of their own in driving dymanics (The Ultimate Driving Machine), but it seems like Audi caught up and is powering forwards much quicker and BMW is struggling.


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## Leg (Jan 11, 2006)

Im not going to defend the M3, if it aint the dogs bollocks, Ill be getting something else. I will say this though...

RS4 - I really dont like that damned grill. Im sick of Audis after 6 years staring at 4 rings on the steering wheel. Its a 4 door. Having owned an A4 Cab, I just couldnt spend Â£50K on a car with pretty much the same interior again. However, a great car. I test drove one and it goes like stink and the brakes are awesome.

Old M3 - great car, when I bought the TT I couldnt afford one new so didnt get one. However, even Mr Clarkson said the RS4 only just beat the E46 M3 so in reality, how good will the new M3 be? Which leads me to....

New M3 - The reviews were putting me off a bit Ill admit. However, Ive seen some of the original reviews of the E46 M3 recently (I posted extracts on another thread this week) which were just as scathing of that car for much the same reasons (The new E46 M3 has gone soft, steering is light, its a GT not a sports car - all compared to the E36) yet the E46 is now considered a class leading car.

In the end the general consensus on M3 post, and in particular from Steved who works for EVO (and owns an E46CSL and a Z4M Coupe and reckons the new M3 is better than both), is that journos are on a downer as the M3 has changed. It is now full of technology and subsequently has had a dose of 'M5' and is more grown up than the original M3. For me thats good, I want a weekday GT and weekend racer that I can flick over from one to the other. For example, today I cruised up the motorway from Leeds to Kendal then blasted down the A65 to come home. I believe the new M3 will be accomplished at both those jobs but Im open minded, after all, its Â£55K so Im damned if Im buying it unless its cock on.

In the end I really cant see that BMW and the M division havent build a better car than the last M3 but if they havent, then ill take my Â£55K elsewhere.

Where, I dont have a chuffing clue. It wont be an RS4 though, nor an S5 and definately not a Cayman S (looked at one today, doesnt float my boat). However, I fully expect the M3 to be an awesome car, look great and go like a bastard. If Im wrong expect a 'What the hell do I buy for Â£55K?' thread in September after I have seen and driven one in the flesh.

Expect a long, detailed and frank review too!


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## PhilJ (Sep 2, 2002)

jampott said:


> If the CF roof is now 'standard' where are they going to find additiona weight and balance savings for the CSL? Bonnet? :lol:


I doubt the carbon roof on the CSL accounted for much of the 200kg weight saving over the E46 M3. The main advantage of the carbon roof was to aid in lowering the centre of gravity. The carbon roof is now simply another signature of M cars. On the CSL there are a number of other areas where weight was saved, including seats, wheels, interior etc, and there is no reason why this could not be applied to the new M3 CSL model.

The RS4 is (or shortly will be) no longer available. Assuming you are buying new, this pretty much makes the M3 the default choice for the time being (unless what you want an automatic Merc).

The RS4 is a great car. The E46 M3 is a great car. I have no doubt that in years to come the E92 M3 will be considered a great car too â€" its just not perhaps the great leap on from the RS4 and E46 that everyone was hoping for.

No one on here has even driven the car, and yet everyone has an opinion! My opinion is that a 400bhp coupe with rear wheel drive and perfect weight distribution hardly sounds like the recipe for a dull drive, does it?

People really shouldnâ€™t take everything journos write so seriously. I really respect Steve Sutcliffe, but I remember he slated the Veyron when it first came out, but has since totally changed his mind about the car. Itâ€™s too early to leap to conclusions. The cars need to be tested on UK roads over extended distances.

BMW has a history of making cars that are great to drive. Unlikely that they are going to make a hash of the M3 is it.


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

> yet the E46 is now considered a class leading car.


I'm not sure everyone would agree.

When Top Gear pitched it side-by-side with the B6 S4 (not the RS4), they gave it a hollow victory based on the fact that you could get its arse out. But had to agree that the Audi was quicker.

Remember, this is an 'S' car. Not built by gmbh, not fettled with suspension and handling mods, basically just an A4 with a fuck-off engine bolted in at the front, and S-Line styling.

I would hardly call that 'class leading'...

And that's before you start on the perceived 'image problems'.

The new S-Class AMG looks nice though. 8)


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## PhilJ (Sep 2, 2002)

jampott said:


> When Top Gear pitched it side-by-side with the B6 S4 (not the RS4), they gave it a hollow victory based on the fact that you could get its arse out. But had to agree that the Audi was quicker.


 :lol: Come on Tim, you're not seriously suggesting that result was meaningful in any way are you? TG lap times are for entertainment purposes only!


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## Leg (Jan 11, 2006)

jampott said:


> > yet the E46 is now considered a class leading car.
> 
> 
> I'm not sure everyone would agree.
> ...


I think most would, and if you want to quote TG, and specifically JC, then which car did he choose to say 'Is this RS4 better than the ???. You know, I think it is'.

Yup, you guessed it, the E46M3. Surely this implies that overall they believe that the M3 was the class leader until the RS4 turned up and was narrowly beaten by the RS4.

I think everyone has to accept that for your average Joe, and thats pretty much everyone on here, the RS4, M3 and other such cars are going to far exceed their abilities and nerve, especailly as road cars but also as track cars. In the end, regardless of journalists varied, wild and ever contradictory opinions, I doubt any of us would criticise either car in the real world.

As for the M3 specifically, I cant believe that BMW didnt strip a couple of RS4s down, test them to death and learn some lessons. I also cant believe they havent produced a car better than the E46 M3 and also even the CSL (or at least learned lessons from it). The M5 and M6 are awesome machines, did the M division suddenly take a couple of years off and let the YTS boys do it? I doubt it.

IMO all cars are becoming so precise, so finely tuned to beat teh competition that in the end, they are all unbelievably good and this causes a problem for journalists who have to write about something, so they have to nitpick.

I hope I am right, I really want the M3 to be my next car and I dont know what else I would get, but as I said before. I havent seen, nor touched one int he flesh so I know as much as you guys and all this conjecture is just that, conjecture. If its a great car, Ill have one next year, if it isnt, well, Ill get something else. Crazy thing is, if I go for something else Ill probably be able to get it before the damned M3. Go figure!

My buying process for this car has been..

1. I want an RS TT
2. There wont be one
3. Ill get an RS4, or maybe an S5
4. You know what, Im sick of Audis
5. Ill get a Cayman S or a Sagaris
6. Hmm dont like that Cayman S and whilst the Sagaris is awesome, I dont like the hard shoulder
7. What else is there
8. I suppose I could look at the BMW M3
9. Wow that sounds fantastic, Ill have one
10. Damn I hope Ive done the right thing, ah well, Ill know in September
11. Fuck knows, ill tell u in September

The only car I fancy right now other than the M3, within my budget, is a Z4M Coupe, especially as if I got that I could buy something else as well/keep the TT and add a Turbo kit. Thats a potential option but not my preference.

As for image problems, dare I say RRS and R8? TT as well. All cars have an image. We can choose drug dealer with an M3 or RRS, thicko footballer with stuff like RRSs and R8s or hairdresser with TTs. In the end, I buy the car for me, not anyone else.

Im also not in the mood for having the 'old shape' again, so the RS4 is out regardless of the other reasons I have.

AMG S Class must be what, Â£80K upwards? Hardly the same league. Actually, do they even do one? Cant find it on the MB site?

PhilJ's post is bang on, although that wont stop us debating it. Jampott and I arent known for letting facts or being sensible get in the way of a good debate. :wink: 

Would be interesting for anyone who wants to to suggest an alternative way of spending Â£55,000 on a new 2 door 2+2 coupe though, Im all ears.....in the meantime im off to buy the magazine, no doubt ill spend all night surfing the net looking for a new car...


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## Leg (Jan 11, 2006)

Well I just read that article and according to Autocar BMW have built a donkey, the M3 is essentially crap in all but a couple of minor areas compared to the RS4 if this article is to be taken seriously.

Can that possibly be true? Just in case, Im off to look through the listings in the back of TG magazine.


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

Leg said:


> jampott said:
> 
> 
> > > yet the E46 is now considered a class leading car.
> ...


AMG certainly do make an S Class & it's a corker, although a tad bigger than the RS4 & M3 8) .

Price is just shy of Â£100K for the 63 & Â£150K for the 65. That said the 63 is estimated to hold about 32% residual after 3 yrs, so possible bargain in 2010.


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## Leg (Jan 11, 2006)

and so I pop along to M3 post and see Steved from EVO has posted regarding the Autocar article.....



> I read the article just now and 'most' of what Sutters states is true, but.... and this is the frustrating part from my persepctive, he is economical with the truth in certain areas that I 'know' will provide controversy. The cynic in me sees an editorial input that was designed to generate interest and therefore sell more magazines.
> 
> Why do I think that? Well first of all there was a carelessness in the content of the article with several errors;
> 
> ...


and seperately, commented on the S5....



> I took the S5 for a good long drive along familiar roads this past weekend and I can assure you it is nowhere near being an M3 rival. It has 3 key problems; firstly Audi have tried to make it feel sporty by fitting stiff dampers but left it with softer springs, so that provided you drive it less than 6/10ths then it will feel taut and sporty, but up the pace and it soon looses all composure. The E92 M3 (even more than the E46 model) is nothing like that.
> 
> Secondly the S5 uses an electric power steering that feels very artificial and makes it difficult to place accurately, particularly on uneven roads. The RS4's steering is much better by comparison, as is the E92 M3s. Finally, the S5 (in manual form) has terrible driveline shunt, so changing from 1st to 2nd gear it is very difficult to achieve smoothly, and thereafter every other gear change, although slightly better, still retains the slack in the drivetrain that means most S5 buyers will want an automatic (which I am sure it must have been designed for). The S5 is not as truly sporting and dynamically sorted as a standard 335i, so how on earth it can be considered an M3 rival is beyond me.
> 
> I will tell you again but clearly you need to drive an M3 for yourself to understand that the M3 is more 'hard-core' than the RS4. The only time the RS4 sounds meaner than the M3 is when you start it up - the RS4 starts with a V8 'harrumph' noise, whilst the new M3 sounds very similar to an E46 M3. Thereafter all talk of being refined and softer are the 'exact opposite' of what you will find when driving the M3. Yes, it rides better but thereafter in every other area the RS4 is easier, smoother and softer.


It appears EVO will have different findings to Autocar. In the end, the buyer has to decide for themselves I guess.

Nowts ever simple eh! Ah well, at least it keeps me off the streets.


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

Leg said:


> Im not going to defend the M3, if it aint the dogs bollocks, Ill be getting something else. I will say this though...
> 
> RS4 - I really dont like that damned grill. Im sick of Audis after 6 years staring at 4 rings on the steering wheel. Its a 4 door. Having owned an A4 Cab, I just couldnt spend Â£50K on a car with pretty much the same interior again. However, a great car. I test drove one and it goes like stink and the brakes are awesome.
> 
> ...


Which motorway connects Leeds to Kendal :wink:

I know exactly what you mean & the choices out there are ever growing. Don't dismiss the RS4 if you really do want a great all-rounder & that's coming from an owner of the M3's bigger & more powerful brother. That said, i'd not base your decision on the mags just yet. Evo have not run a test & you've not yet driven one, so see what you think before deciding. For you the M3 may be far better than the RS4 & as it's you driving/owning it, only you need to be happy.

Also bear in mind that any car can only retain a crown for a short while, so assuming the RS4 does wear it in that range, the AMG C63 is just around the corner & that's rumoured to be awesome (i already know the engine defo is), plus the new RS6 is around the corner & assuming Audi can uplift everything about the RS4 into a more powerful & slightly bigger car, that could be a monster.


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## Leg (Jan 11, 2006)

W7 PMC said:


> Leg said:
> 
> 
> > Im not going to defend the M3, if it aint the dogs bollocks, Ill be getting something else. I will say this though...
> ...


Aye, I only dismiss the RS4 and its stablemates because 1. I dont want a 4 door and 2. I would just like a change from Audi. They are great cars (my only gripe is the grill as Ive said before). That (4 door) means the Mercedes is out (Im also no fan of Autos).

Im not overly fussed at any car I own holding 'the crown' (hell I bought a TT) so really I shouldnt care about reviews, Im not sure why Im taking them to heart really, Im just impatient to get the car and any snippet of information is magnified by the impatience. Im sure many can empathise.

Anyway, I never imagined (until the end of last year) I would be faced with the problem of 'What car do I spend Â£55000 on?' so I should enjoy the ride, at the end of it Ill have a nice car one way or the other and in the meantime, Ive got you lot to moan and whine to and, occasionally, get useful advice from eh :wink:


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

Leg said:


> and so I pop along to M3 post and see Steved from EVO has posted regarding the Autocar article.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


EVO were always bound to offer a slightly more constructive opinion.

My only issue i guess (it's small) is the article above refers to a new M3 & an RS4 that's been in EVO's ownership for 18mths, now is it only me that thinks this particular 18mth old RS4 could be more than slightly abused & possibly a very tired example?? Could be wrong but 18mths of Journo's caning it will no doubt take it's toll.

I hark back to AmD's Blue modified R32 & how sorry that car performed after a few months of Journo attack.


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## Leg (Jan 11, 2006)

W7 PMC said:


> Leg said:
> 
> 
> > and so I pop along to M3 post and see Steved from EVO has posted regarding the Autocar article.....
> ...


EVO do seem a bit more serious in general I must say.

Im no expert but surely a maintained (It had a service and ECU upgrade from Audi in March) RS4 wouldnt fade after just 18 months and 25,000 miles, would it? If so thats a bit cack from a Â£50K car. 

I assumed that it (any car) would loosen up and perform better at only 18 months. I know my TT has and I drive that at full chat most of the time (same mileage).


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## tehdarkstar (Jul 24, 2006)

Leg said:


> Well I just read that article and according to Autocar BMW have built a donkey, the M3 is essentially crap in all but a couple of minor areas compared to the RS4 if this article is to be taken seriously.
> 
> Can that possibly be true? Just in case, Im off to look through the listings in the back of TG magazine.


Nah, that's a harsh interpretation. You have to read it in the context of what they said last week about the car. Last week they tested it in isolation and found it a great car, so it is a great car. Only when put against the RS4 that it didn't do as well.


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## Wondermikie (Apr 14, 2006)

Interesting thread.

For me, comparing the RS4, M3 and C63 is too difficult, because they are all fantastic cars, and it comes down to personal taste as to which is the best. Autocar has gone down a bit in my opinion recently, I would rather believe the words of SteveD than them :?

Leg, the M3 will be a fantastic car, I guarantee that you won't stop grinning for weeks once you get it. No offence to your TT, but the M will be light years ahead of it. You decided on the M3 because it was the only car that suited your needs and budget, and even if the mags say the RS4 is better, who cares? It's still the best car based on the criteria you set down in the first place.

Comparing these three cars is like comparing my personal favs - Rachel Bilson, Jessica Alba and Holly Valance. Lets face it, they're all different and no doubt we'd all have a different opinion of them, but you'd hardly be disappointed if you rolled over and saw either of them, would you?

[smiley=sweetheart.gif]


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## Leg (Jan 11, 2006)

Wondermikie said:


> Interesting thread.
> 
> For me, comparing the RS4, M3 and C63 is too difficult, because they are all fantastic cars, and it comes down to personal taste as to which is the best. Autocar has gone down a bit in my opinion recently, I would rather believe the words of SteveD than them :?
> 
> ...


I know, you're right, Im just over reacting. I have next week off and im going to waste, oops, spend the time test driving every car in this price bracket I can so I have something of the same ilk to compare the M3 to.

With regards to the other point, can I have all three please?


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

jampott said:


> garyc said:
> 
> 
> > Carlos said:
> ...


Well I guess the views of a few vociferous BMW-haters and one Autocar highly subjective article, will cause M Division to hang up their spanners and give up, since Audi now seem to hold all the cards? :roll:

But I guess that it has been a long long time since Audi came close to M cars head to head and over a sustained time period, that the end is nigh for BMWs superiority as driving machines.

Ho hum.

Then I read the Steved article that does not quite echo Autocar. Quite the opposite. And he does know both cars very well. So i think I will wait for the numerous UK full road tests of new MÂ£ that will be appearing, before drawing too mnay conclusions as to M3s demise.

And then i read the same author's S5 comparison and driving impressions (remember the next A4/RS4 etc will be based on this platform) and that that too is worse than both the current B7 RS4 and the M3. So what does that guarantee that the next RS4 will be a step backwards too?

Like has been said elsewhere, no one has driven the new M3 for very long or far, and deffo not in UK. Only a bunch of journos for limited time in Southern Spain.

"Reports of my death were somewhat exaggerated"
_Mark Twain_


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## Carlos (May 6, 2002)

I've read the Autocar article in full now and the thing that struck me the most was the claim that the RS4 has better steering feel. This is a bit of a shocker, isn't it?

You expect Audi to trump BMW in certain areas (e.g. aesthetics, traction) but feel?


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## Juber (May 20, 2007)

Ok 1st of all was it an E46 M3? Or an E92?

I am pretty confident that the E92 M3 would probs be a much better car than the RS4.

As for the E60 M5 it Is deffinatley better than the RS4 â€" delimited does the RS4 pace up to 207mph like the M5?


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

Leg said:


> W7 PMC said:
> 
> 
> > Leg said:
> ...


I know exactly what you mean, but driving a car at full chat & caning a car all the time are 2 different scenarios. I used the AmD R32 as a benchmark, as that car was only 18mths old when i had it for a few days & had only covered 35K miles, but it was so tired it was almost in a coma. I was only adding that to the pot & yes the RS4 is meant to liven up as the miles go past 10K. Any car in the hands of EVO must be in for a very hard life i would think.


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

Juber said:


> Ok 1st of all was it an E46 M3? Or an E92?
> 
> I am pretty confident that the E92 M3 would probs be a much better car than the RS4.
> 
> As for the E60 M5 it Is deffinatley better than the RS4 â€" delimited does the RS4 pace up to 207mph like the M5?


Sorry to appear direct, but have you read this thread? as it's obvious we're talking about the E92.

The M5 is a tad faster in a straight line (& i mean a tad) & yes it is meant to hit over 200MPH, but the fastest i ever travelled in mine was 181MPH on a runway & 186MPH in Germany. No doubt it had more, but where the hell exactly are you going to find out?? The quoted de-limited figure is 203MPH, however you'd need al least 4-5miles of empty dry road to reach those heady heights, plus balls of steel.

Where the RS4 is significantly better than the M5 (& i'd know) is with day to day driving, as i can drive the RS4 far closer to it's limits all of the time, than i could in the M5 some of the time.

The RS4 is also the quicker car round the Nurburgring, as proved & the times are out their & in fact the RS4 is only 1 second slower round the same track that the CSL.

Truth is, the M5 is an awesome car, however the trade off is that with around 540BHP (mine was DMS mapped & de-limited) only driven through 2 wheels, alot of the performance gets wasted unless the weather/conditions are perfect.


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## raven (May 7, 2002)

W7 PMC said:


> (mine was DMS mapped & de-limited)


Slightly off topic but given that the power was barely useable in standard trim, why did you get it DMS mapped? :?

Leg - have you considered a second hand 911 C2S? They would be comfortably in your budget and a good one to compare with the M3. The power is very useable and the car makes a good mway cruiser as well as having fantastic handling for the twisties.


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

Yeah, I think perhaps the C2S has become the car of choice for people who can't get an R8.


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

raven said:


> W7 PMC said:
> 
> 
> > (mine was DMS mapped & de-limited)
> ...


That's an excellent question & the simple answer was firstly i wanted the 155MPH limiter removing & secondly, i'd only had the car 4 days when it was re-mapped, so i was still very wet behind the M ears. In hindsight i'd have probably just got the limiter removed & left the power alone (perhaps :wink: ).


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

W7 PMC said:


> raven said:
> 
> 
> > W7 PMC said:
> ...


Don't talk bollocks. It was for bragging rights, as well you know.


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## Leg (Jan 11, 2006)

raven said:


> Leg - have you considered a second hand 911 C2S? They would be comfortably in your budget and a good one to compare with the M3. The power is very useable and the car makes a good mway cruiser as well as having fantastic handling for the twisties.


Its a fair suggestion which I did consider and I did test drive a CS2 and nice as it was to drive Im buggered if Im paying Â£50,000 for a base model of the range and for a car that is 3 years old.

TBH I dont even like the styling unless its one of the uber 997s which I most definately cant afford. I would rather have the top of the range in a model I can afford, new, than a secondhand bottom of the range in a model I cant afford new.

Lets face it, Im never going to hit the limit in an m3, RS4, C2S or anything that side of my TT so performance statistics and handling that is .000001% better in one over the other aint gonna make any difference to me in the real world. They all go like [email protected] so in the end other concerns come into play. As I couldnt care a jot about residuals and performance is that good in them all it doesnt matter, then it comes down to styling, practicality, build quality etc and above all, what makes me grin when I get in it. I still believe that BMW and the M Division have made an awesome machine, I think the Journos are full of sh1t and that as more serious magazines review the M3 we will see the real truth come out.

I believe that that real truth will be that the M3 wins in some areas and the RS4 in others. Both cars are now so good that it is becoming increasingly difficult for manufacturers to have a clear lead (and for journalists to have a valid opinion which in the end, sells magazines). I mean, an M3 or an RS4 is going to be level pegging with a Â£20K more expensive C2S assuming the same conditions and driver ability. Does that mean the C2S is a failiure? No, of course not, it just means that everyone has upped their game to the point where there isnt much more to improve at this level in terms of performance, certainly not in any respect that the unwashed masses will notice on the road.

I mean, take the trips JC undergoes on TG in Bugattis, Fezzas and various other super cars. All very well and good, but I could do precisely the same journey in much the same time in my TT because whatever you drive, in the end, its a road car. To a point there is a difference but once the car surpasses the owners ability and the environment in performs in, its all bar room statistics.

The only place to differentiate is on the track and, apart from the fact that its a track day so racing isnt allowed, I wouldnt track my road car anyway, nothing compares to tracking a tiny kit car (Westfield in my case) that has sod all technology and you dont mind bending.

Or

The M3 could be shite and Im buggered.


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## Leg (Jan 11, 2006)

Interesting photoshop posted on M3Post. Its very easy to see the evolution here...


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## DeanTT (Sep 11, 2006)

Leg said:


> Interesting photoshop posted on M3Post. Its very easy to see the evolution here...


Interesting, but very sad  I'd take the M over the RS anyday.


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## Leg (Jan 11, 2006)

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73202

3rd pic down, look at those arches.   :lol: 8)


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

Not really bothered about the reviews, but its fucking excellent watching Leg squirm. :lol:


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## Leg (Jan 11, 2006)

jampott said:


> Not really bothered about the reviews, but its fucking excellent watching Leg squirm. :lol:


Lol I spent less time deliberating about getting married. U bastard! :lol:


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

Leg said:


> jampott said:
> 
> 
> > Not really bothered about the reviews, but its fucking excellent watching Leg squirm. :lol:
> ...


It is as funny as fuck, mate. :lol:

Makes my colour decision seem rather petty.


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## Leg (Jan 11, 2006)

jampott said:


> Leg said:
> 
> 
> > jampott said:
> ...


Im laughing too m8, all this deliberation and discussing it on here and M3Post adds to the excitement.

Its a problem I didnt dream I would ever have until December though, hmm what Â£55K sports car do I buy. Awesome. :wink:

Kinda puts it in context eh!


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

Leg said:


> jampott said:
> 
> 
> > Leg said:
> ...


Yeah I know the feeling, cept I've been waiting a little longer. :wink:


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## tehdarkstar (Jul 24, 2006)

Leg said:


> I believe that that real truth will be that the M3 wins in some areas and the RS4 in others. Both cars are now so good that it is becoming increasingly difficult for manufacturers to have a clear lead (and for journalists to have a valid opinion which in the end, sells magazines). I mean, an M3 or an RS4 is going to be level pegging with a Â£20K more expensive C2S assuming the same conditions and driver ability. Does that mean the C2S is a failiure? No, of course not, it just means that everyone has upped their game to the point where there isnt much more to improve at this level in terms of performance, certainly not in any respect that the unwashed masses will notice on the road.


That's exactly my opinion... But I do like to know that BMW doesn't have it all its own way any more. More competition means better products for us, so I'm happy.


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## Wondermikie (Apr 14, 2006)

tehdarkstar said:


> That's exactly my opinion... But I do like to know that BMW doesn't have it all its own way any more. More competition means better products for us, so I'm happy.


That's a great way of looking at it - without the E46 M3, the RS4 would never have existed.


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## Leg (Jan 11, 2006)

http://motoring.iafrica.com/newmodels/247502.htm

Ascari extreme
Michele Lupini - Cars in Action, Marbella, Spain
Thu, 19 Jul 2007

Ascari is a private racetrack â€" there are no actual races there. Itâ€™s for gentlemen to take a spin in their classic racecars, or old F1 machines. Itâ€™s custom built to simulate the best aspects of the worldâ€™s greatest racetracks and itâ€™s an absolutely stunning track to drive.

Add the all-new BMW M3 with its high-revving four-litre V8 to the equation and we have the recipe for a day I will not forgetâ€¦

BMW never let us do flying laps â€" rather we visited the pits at the end of each of our ten laps and were lined up again for the next to retain some semblance of order. Ten laps were enough to get it right and my last had to be the blinder I failed to string together so far...

Out the pits this last time I omitted the instruction to pull away gently â€" gave it a few grand, dumped the clutch. M3 set down on its haunches and spun those big 18â€ gunmetal wheels wrapped in the latest Michelin Pilots right through first and well into second, the cone funnel feeding us onto the correct line for turn one seeming far narrower following proper acceleration this time as I snick into third.

Almost immediately I slam on the brakes and those giant composite alley hub-steel rotors clamped by a monster single-piston calliper press the nose down as my eyes stretch their lids, I turn in late, sharp. Back into second and the nose obeys like a faithful terrier as the car clips an apex Iâ€™ve struggled to find all day and it drops down as the radius of the hairpin opens.

Short-shift into third to stop the tail getting happy and the V8 grunts urgently toward the fast approaching S-bend. Itâ€™s pretty much an M5â€™s V10 with two pots lopped off and it revs even higher. I use every last one of those 8400rpm to slip back to third a ball hair this side of the limiter. A big boot on the brakes again and lift off as I turn in to bring the inside apex up and I run down that rumble strip to be ideally placed for the switch into the right hander. It gets a little squirrely on the way out and I almost get to the limiter this time before jabbing the brake and turning up the long right-hander that followsâ€¦

M3 has a totally different suspension to the 3-Series coupe and itâ€™s working hard. Thereâ€™s a little loss of traction but thatâ€™s cool â€" this is the best Iâ€™ve got the first bit of the lap and Iâ€™m happy because itâ€™s also my last. Remember, all the electronics are off â€" while brilliant on the road as noted yesterday, they get in the way on the limit on-track.

Hard onto the brakes now for the first of the two tight hairpins and the nose drops hard, l let it run quite far in on the brakes and set it up nicely for the big full-power drift to follow. Weâ€™re in second at about five grand when I give it and the rest is up to M3â€™s brilliant M-differential that can now fully lock if need be. It must be fully locked as the tail breaks and thereâ€™s a cloud of tyre smoke in the mirrors, M3 proceeding towards the coming plunge left with the driver literally looking out the left-side windowâ€¦.

The chassis works hard through there â€" itâ€™s banked and an awesome place to drift but I want it neat. I manage to keep it tidy and flat out, the car creaking and writhing under full power. A tricky right-left-right complex follows and you need to be wary of the back breaking and rubbing off speed and I get that right, too, finally getting M3 to flow into the long last right-hander, not lifting this time around.

Then itâ€™s over a mini-rise before itâ€™s hard on the brakes for a tight left-hand hairpin Iâ€™ve been battling with all day â€" mainly because the photographer was there and I was putting on the style â€" but this time I brake early enough to get the nose in sharply, clip the apex and again drift all the way out but pick up speed quickly for the following daunting double-left kinked dogleg straight. Iâ€™m through third, well into fourth and keep it flat through the first kink, this time using all the road on the way out and easing up onto the rumble strip approaching the second kink very quickly. I take a deep breath and rush M3 through â€" flat out again.

M3â€™s acceleration and poise â€" and its monster braking â€" are all breathtaking as I drop down to third under heavy braking for another harder-left up into a little chicane, which I prefer to run through hard in third than second because M3â€™s stunning grunt out of there through another long banked left hander is the best way out to keep it full tapsâ€¦

Around that long bend, Ascari plunges down and over another troublesome little chicane through the dip. I cut the right-left apexes to keep the car as settled as I can because it gets angry on the exit. I did that quite well, the tail does not break and I get the nose into the right flick that leads into another long, banked left-hander M3 takes in its stride now itâ€™s set up right for it.

The banked bit leads into a Laguna Seca-like tight left-easy right corkscrew. I brake hard and sharp and decide Iâ€™m happy with my rapidly ending last lap, so letâ€™s finish it in a bit of style. I toss it in hard urging the tail out and let the moment snap it back as I get it into third and the back comes round the other side perfectly for the change in direction. M3 settles down sideways and commences a fast but poised 150m flat out drift, the V8 screaming, tyres wailing and blue smoke not unlike a thunder cloud behind.

It steps easily and stylishly back into line and I lift off, slip into the pits, my job done â€" my last lap a beauty.

No. M3 isnâ€™t an easy car to drive fast â€" itâ€™s rather brutal, quick and hugely rewarding in the right hands and like that, itâ€™s a driverâ€™s tool to the tee. Respect it and M3 will respect you back, but unlike certain rivals that will unduly reward hands without talent, if youâ€™re not up to it, rather leave the M3â€™s awesome electronic assistants on when you try drive it fast.

On the track, BMWÂ´s new V8 M3 is an astounding car to drive flat out. Better be sure you can handle it before you go out and do it, thoughâ€¦

The new M3 arrives in SA end-August and is set to go head to head not only with Audiâ€™s similarly powerful AWD RS4 and MercÂ´s also to be launched C63 AMG, but also perhaps with Lexusâ€™ IS-F, so if you are in the market for a new mid-exec rocket ship, youâ€™re â€˜gonna be so spoiled for choice.

But if itâ€™s a pure driving machine you are after out of that lot, Iâ€™m already willing to stick my neck out and predict the M3 will undoubtedly be that car. In my mind, itâ€™s already the obvious choiceâ€¦


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## S10TYG (Mar 7, 2007)

I don't doubt your order Rich. Just remember

White
Red Leathers
Dark Rims

That blue M3 you posted the link to in the m3board was gorgeous. So envious of you man.


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## tehdarkstar (Jul 24, 2006)

Leg said:


> No. M3 isnâ€™t an easy car to drive fast â€" itâ€™s rather brutal, quick and hugely rewarding in the right hands and like that, itâ€™s a driverâ€™s tool to the tee. Respect it and M3 will respect you back, but unlike certain rivals that will unduly reward hands without talent, if youâ€™re not up to it, rather leave the M3â€™s awesome electronic assistants on when you try drive it fast.


Interesting that it's exactly what I found with the Z4M and it is what we were discussing this thread the other day. Most manufacturers opt to build cars that are easy to drive and will flatter you, whereas the Z4M (and now seems the M3 as well) will not. You will have to learn them.

Are you sure you won't track yours after reading this? Oh, come on, you ought to have the rear tyres burning, the V8 screaming and the full 414bhp going through the rear? You can say whatever you want about the light Caterhams or Westfields and I agree with you, but I can still have fun in bigger, heavier cars with lots more power.


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## tehdarkstar (Jul 24, 2006)

BTW, are you sure you're going to replace the wheels/tyres in your M3? The car has got bespoke tyres, so I would think they're made to give the car the best possible handling characteristics...


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

tehdarkstar said:


> BTW, are you sure you're going to replace the wheels/tyres in your M3? The car has got bespoke tyres, so I would think they're made to give the car the best possible handling characteristics...


At least 8 different tyre compounds and various widths in 18/19" fittings were part of the chassis dev program.

None have yet been tested on 19" rims - all Spainish launch cars had 18s. I think it's safe to assume that steering sharpness and intiial turn-in feel will improve with running the lower profile 19" tyres.


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

jampott said:


> W7 PMC said:
> 
> 
> > raven said:
> ...


Perhaps, but the de-limit was what i really wanted.

Says he with an R8 on order & considering yellow :lol:


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## Leg (Jan 11, 2006)

tehdarkstar said:


> Are you sure you won't track yours after reading this? Oh, come on, you ought to have the rear tyres burning, the V8 screaming and the full 414bhp going through the rear? You can say whatever you want about the light Caterhams or Westfields and I agree with you, but I can still have fun in bigger, heavier cars with lots more power.


I probably will although Ill get a set of track wheels and tyres. I may get another kit car once the house move is complete as Ill have a good deal more garage space(gotta sell mine 1st though). I was reading about the 400bhp Dax in EVO and recalling the fun I had in my Westy when I was having a well deserved dump last night which has re sparked my interest.


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## b3ves (May 6, 2002)

2 things will be guaranteed however good it is:

1. Lousy fuel consumption. In the first drive article in Autocar, they claim to have only managed 14.9mpg versus a guess of 20mpg in an E46.

2. All other non-BMW driving road users will hate you. The CSL is the only BMW I've ever owned and I've never got close when it comes to people (not) letting you out of junctions, pulling over on motorways, etc.


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## sandhua1978 (Sep 11, 2006)

Saw one (m3) the road last night coming onto the A406,

was being driven very eratically. And was in the Red colour as seen in the press shots. I noticed him coming from behind me as the xenon lights and angels eyes where blinding me at quite some speed.

Certainly goes!!

Can only assume it was a press car or some boff from bmw who'd managed to get one for himself!

Didn't really strike me as being whole different than 3 series coupe and only notice it was the m3 when i saw the 4 exhausts and carbon roof! But it was quite dark, Couldn't make out if it had the 19" or 18" wheels.

Sorry no pics as it was quite late!


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## b3ves (May 6, 2002)

Form having just read the article, I'm amazed that the Beemer is listed as 150-odd kilos heavier than the RS4.

The (lack of) steering feel of the M3 doesn't surprise me as that would have been my main criticism of my CSL.

When I finally get back to looking for a decent car, the RS4 will be near or at the top of my list.


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

b3ves said:


> Form having just read the article, I'm amazed that the Beemer is listed as 150-odd kilos heavier than the RS4.
> 
> The (lack of) steering feel of the M3 doesn't surprise me as that would have been my main criticism of my CSL.
> 
> When I finally get back to looking for a decent car, the RS4 will be near or at the top of my list.


Rob, huge debates on RS246 about this as well as BM3W.

According to popular concensus, Audi state their car's weights as unladen & BMW as curb (this includes driver & liquids etc.) The press all state the RS4 is 1650 & the M3 is 1655kgs, however if the curb element is subtracted, this makes the M3 around 120KG lighter than the RS4.

If this is true than i can accept, however my issue is why if this is true, do the press articles not state this, as they all so far have said the RS4 is lighter. Surely not a schoolboy error by every mag.


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