# 3.2 VR6 - Misfires & Timing Chain Issues.



## JB2008TT3.2 (May 2, 2021)

So, my check engine light came on, did my Yelp research to find a shop near by, they ran a diagnostic, said I had misfire, valve cover leak, oil in a spark plug and a bad cam sensor... So I said go for it, $2,500 later, new valve cover and gasket, all new spark plugs, new cam sensor and oil change, the check engine light won't go off... The mechanic says "your valves are not opening and closing properly during shifts, I don't have any error codes for your automatic transmission so it has to be gearing, we need to remove your engine to fix the problem and that's going to be $9,000." And I'm like WTF are talking about I thought I had a misfire because oil got into plug and oil went into my cam sensor... To me it sounds like these guys are inexperienced and just trying to rake me for everything I have to get experience.... The car drives, but if I hit the gas for a lane change it bolts then sputters losing power, I immediately take my foot of the gas and my solid yellow check engine light blinks then goes solid again. So I'm here, a forum of experts... Please share your ideas.


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## FNChaos (Nov 30, 2016)

I'd suggest you find another mechanic.

Assuming you aren't pulling our leg, there is no reason it should cost $2500 for a gasket, sensor, spark plugs and an oil change. All of the parts mentioned are inexpensive and relatively easy to replace.

...and after all that they didn't even address the original issue. :? Now they want to pull your motor for transmission work on a 'hunch'? :roll:


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## SwissJetPilot (Apr 27, 2014)

@ *JB2008TT3.2* - I completely agree with *FNChaos*. Find yourself another mechanic! It sounds like you had the unfortunate experience of running into a shop that figures they can pull a customer over the table because you happen to own an Audi.

Couple of questions -
• What's your year?
• What's your mileage?
• Where's your general location?

First, before you spend another penny, get yourself an OBD reader like *VCDS* or *OBDeleven* so you can scan the vehicle yourself and know first hand what's going on. These OBD readers are designed specifically for VAG (VW Audi) vehicle codes so they will accurately identify what's going on with your vehicle.

Both are not terribly difficult to use out of the box, and _*Ross Tech*_ (who makes VCDS) has a ton of information and diagnostics available online for free. Simply look up the fault code and _*Ross Tech*_ has a huge list of possible causes and solutions for probably 95% of the VAG fault codes.

We have a lot of good information in the *Knowledge Base* on both systems and lots of Forum members have quite a bit of experience with them and are always willing to help. But without them it's anyone's guess. Even if you're just a casual user, the *OBDeleven* will be sufficient to identify the fault codes which you can then post and/or search for in the Forum.

Suffice to say, without an OBD scanner, you'll always be at the mercy of a mechanic or service center with no way of knowing if they're telling you the truth or not.

*FAQ - VCDS Open Box Review*
https://www.ttforum.co.uk/forum/viewtop ... &t=1928927

*FAQ - OBDeleven Open Box Review*
https://www.ttforum.co.uk/forum/viewtop ... &t=1926899

So let's look at what they told you and what they did keeping in mind we don't know the actual fault codes but I think we can make some fairly educated guesses here. I've provided some links additional posts so you can read up on each topic a bit more in detail so this post doesn't become War and Peace volume II -

*1.) Misfire* - Often (but not always) related to a bad *Coil Pack *which is super easy to replace. Simply pull out the bad one, and replace it with a new one. You literally need no tools to do this since they can be removed with a looped cable tie. The link below shows how they are removed during a spark plug service. There have been reports that misfire has also been fixed by resetting the throttle body with VCDS. But you really need a fault code to be sure since it would typically identify the defective component.

*How to: Change the Spark Plugs on a 3.2 V6*
https://www.ttforum.co.uk/forum/viewtop ... &t=1286697

*2.) Valve cover leak* - This is time consuming since the intake manifold has to be removed first. Not fun, but not rocket science either. At least in your case, with a new *Valve Cover*, you don't have to worry about the PCV diaphragm as it was also replaced since it's incorporated into the 3.2 valve cover. A 3.2 valve cover alone is around $500 and a gasket set for it would run another $100. But why they replaced the valve cover is a mystery unless it was cracked which is highly unlikely.

*3.2 Manifold and Valve Cover Removal*
https://www.vwvortex.com/threads/tt-3-2 ... id=6007827

*3.) Oil in a spark plug* - This one is impossible to determine from a diagnostic scan so they would have to remove the coil packs and spark plugs to verify this statement. Since the valve cover gasket was leaking (possibly the round ones in the middle where the spark plugs go through), that could have been the source of the oil on the plugs based on the dodgy nature of this shop. Usually oil on a plug is due to oil in the cylinder due to leaking rings. If you see it on all the plugs, this could be a failed PCV which is allowing more oil vapor into the cylinder though not likely in your case. However failed piston rings is not very common on the 3.2 engine. It's not an impossible failure but a compression test would verify if this is the case.

*4.) Bad cam sensor* - Easy enough part to replace and could have been damaged by the leaking valve cover depending on where it was leaking. A typical faults code might be reported as _*00515 - Camshaft Position (Hall) Sensor (G40)*_. As mentioned previously, you can refer to *Ross Tech's* wiki to read up on this and other fault codes -

00515 - Ross-Tech Wiki

*5.) Oil change* - A reasonable service, but also an easy DIY. Hopefully this included a new filter too.

*DIY Oil Change VR 3.2 litre*
https://www.ttforum.co.uk/forum/viewtop ... 9&t=986361

Here's some pictures of the parts we're talking about if you're not that familiar with the big lump of metal under the hood. If you're interested in tackling these issues yourself, we have a set of workshop manuals and plenty of 3.2 owners that can help provide you with assistance. Unlike your mechanic, we're bloody cheap too! 

*FAQ - Audi TT (8J) Workshop Manuals & Self Study Programs*
https://www.ttforum.co.uk/forum/viewtop ... &t=1833829


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## JB2008TT3.2 (May 2, 2021)

Thank you very much... The information you've provided is both helpful and robust. To answer your question, yes seriously $2500, I thought I'd save by not going to the stealership who charged me $400 to replace my hood release lever lol... I was afraid to go back so tried something close... Q/A.

• What's your year? 2008
• What's your mileage? 153,000
• Where's your general location? Long Beach CA USA


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## SwissJetPilot (Apr 27, 2014)

@ *JB2008TT3.2* - Hey, Long Beach! Very cool. 

Given the age and miles, there's another potential issue that can happen with the *Coil Pack Connectors*; they can get brittle and crack and not seat properly. Also, but not so often, the individual pins/connectors can fail. Since they're sitting right on top of the engine, they're getting nicely cooked all the time. Fortunately, unlike the smaller 4-cylinder engines at least the 3.2 doesn't have a plastic engine cover which becomes an Easy Bake Oven. You don't have to replace the entire harness. The individual connectors can be purchased (just get them from Audi) and simply de-pinned and re-pinned with the existing harness wires.

But as I mentioned before, if it is the *Coil Pack*, they are super easy to just yank and replace as needed.









Still, a fault scan is really the key to knowing what's going on. You can pick up an *OBDeleven Pro* off *Amazon*, link it to your Android or iOS smartphone (or tablet) and run a fault scan and see what comes up. If you do go this route, get as few credits as possible. You can earn as many as you need for free and most people never use up what they get. I now have over 350 and I'll never use them.

This *Youtube* from *Deutsche Auto Parts* will demonstrate how to use an *OBDeleven* for your TT's particular issue -

*How to Find Engine Misfires on VW and Audi's*





Another point of why these OBD scanners are so useful is it's possible for old faults to remain even after a repair has been done. Usually after the repair has been performed a second fault scan is performed to ensure all faults have been cleared and are not still present. Many a TT owner has run a fault scan for the first time only to find half a dozen ancient fault codes still present which were never cleared and are not even relevant to the current problem they're trying to resolve.

Be aware that a dodgy shop can easily convince an unwary customer that a fault is still present or that the "other" shop didn't do the repair correctly.

Forewarned is forearmed.

Oh, I forgot to ask - do you have a Coupe or Roadster?

.


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## JB2008TT3.2 (May 2, 2021)

It's a coupe... And again thank you for the advise, I pulled the trigger and purchased the Volta's IT OBDeleven NexGen Bluetooth from Amazon. So I'll be back with error codes possibly.


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## SwissJetPilot (Apr 27, 2014)

Perfect. 

You'll have the option to email your self the entire Auto Scan. Once you recieve it, you can copy/paste it directly into this post. Just put in front and at the end of the fault code scan data so it displays as shown below. Note - Use brackets [ ] instead of < >.

This post has some good info on setting up and using the *OBDeleven* so you can read up ahead of time -

*FAQ - OBDeleven Open Box Review*
https://www.ttforum.co.uk/forum/viewtop ... &t=1926899

*Data Transfer -*

_Another feature offered by OBDeleven is the ability to send emails about your scans and fault codes. This can be done by clicking on the little envelope icon on the top right of the screen. This will pop up an option window for which ever email system you have on your Android. In my case I had Gmail and Yahoo. When I tapped on the Yahoo icon, it opened my email account and had created an email with the data posted into the body of the text. I had to fill in the To: address but it automatically posted my sending address into the cc/bcc.

This feature is controlled in the 'Options' under 'Data Sharing' where you can insert the email address you want to use for data sharing._


```
Address 01: Engine (-----CDNC)       Labels:* User\TEST-01.lbl
   Part No SW: 8K2 907 115 A    HW: 8K2 907 115 D
   Component: 2.0l R4/4V TF H12 0002  
   Revision: E1H12---    
   Coding: 0104000C180F0A60
   Shop #: WSC 06325 000 00000
   ASAM Dataset: EV_ECM20TFS8K2907115A A01003
   ROD: EV_ECM20TFS8K2907115A.rod
   VCID: 2D12C9137C5AB9270A-8078

2 Faults Found:
4057 - Cylinder 2 
          P0302 00 [101] - Misfire Detected
          Not Confirmed - Tested Since Memory Clear
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Status: 00000001
                    Fault Priority: 2
                    Fault Frequency: 1
                    Mileage: 92272 km
                    Date: 2019.06.03
                    Time: 16:33:08
```


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## TT'sRevenge (Feb 28, 2021)

JB2008TT3.2 said:


> So, my check engine light came on, did my Yelp research to find a shop near by, they ran a diagnostic, said I had misfire, valve cover leak, oil in a spark plug and a bad cam sensor... So I said go for it, $2,500 later, new valve cover and gasket, all new spark plugs, new cam sensor and oil change, the check engine light won't go off...


Sounds like an awful lot for those things but if they fixed the problem and everything was good at least you'd be happy. Only that didn't happen, it sounds like 



JB2008TT3.2 said:


> The mechanic says "your valves are not opening and closing properly during shifts,


LOL "your valves"? What valves? The engine valves? Well those wouldn't have anything to do with shifts... The transmission valves? It's a DSG so the only "valves" we might think of are the mechatronics unit which is somewhat similar to a valve body in an automatic trans but it's not an auto trans so yeah...



JB2008TT3.2 said:


> I don't have any error codes for your automatic transmission so it has to be gearing,


So the gears have valves? Or the valves have gears? LOL. This is some of the most hilarious shit I've heard. :lol:



JB2008TT3.2 said:


> we need to remove your engine to fix the problem and that's going to be $9,000."


LOL what? Is the car even worth much more than $9000? $9000 to remove an engine? To fix "gearing" that has nothing to do with the engine, or valves? This is craziness, that's for sure.



JB2008TT3.2 said:


> And I'm like WTF are talking about I thought I had a misfire because oil got into plug and oil went into my cam sensor...


Get away from this place, ASAP!



JB2008TT3.2 said:


> To me it sounds like these guys are inexperienced and just trying to rake me for everything I have


To me it sounds like they are _idiots_ lol. Are that or they are taking you for a ride.



JB2008TT3.2 said:


> The car drives, but if I hit the gas for a lane change it bolts then sputters losing power, I immediately take my foot of the gas and my solid yellow check engine light blinks then goes solid again. So I'm here, a forum of experts... Please share your ideas.


A flashing MIL indicates a catalyst damaging misfire event. So, your misfire is still there, $2500 later :roll: Since your plugs were changed I'm thinking it's a bad coil (or connector) or injector. I'm not that familiar with the VR6 to know other possibilities but I'm imagining it's not "valves and gearing" that are the problem here lol. Definitely get away from those clowns/that shop. They seem to have done next to nothing, fixed nothing, charged a lot of money and are trying to rope you in for a whole lot more either to scam you or just to cover for their own incompetence.


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## JB2008TT3.2 (May 2, 2021)

OBDeleven vehicle history log
Date: 2021-05-04 06:30:39

VIN: TRUDD38J581039585
Car: 
Year: 2008
Body type: Coupe
Engine: kW ( hp) l
Mileage: 247850 km

---------------------------------------------------------------
01 Engine
System description: TT-3.2-DQ-LEV2 G
Software number: 022906032HG
Software version: 1166
Hardware number: 022906032GP

Faults:
P001600 - Crankshaft Position-Camshaft Position
Correlation Bank 1 Sensor A
static
P030000 - Random/Multiple Cylinder
Misfire Detected
Intermittent
P030200 - Cyl.2
Misfire Detected
Intermittent


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## SwissJetPilot (Apr 27, 2014)

So - now that you have identified the faults, let's go find out what they're telling you -

*P001600* - *Crankshaft Position-Camshaft Position *
-Ross Tech: 16400/P0016/000022 - Bank 1: Camshaft Position Sensor (G40) / Engine Speed Sensor (G28): Incorrect Correlation
*P030000* - *Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected*
- Ross Tech: 16684/P0300/000768 - Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected
*P030200* - *Cyl.2 Misfire Detected*
- Ross Tech: 16686/P0302/000770 - Cylinder 2 Misfire Detected

Based on these faults, my primary concern would be the *P001600* since the other two DTCs just tell you what you already know about the misfire. Given you have a 2008 with 247,850 km (154,000 miles) on the clock, IMHO a timing chain may well be in your future as they do wear and stretch and need to be replaced at some point. Religious oil and filter changes certainly help prolong their life, but like all mechanical things, they do wear in time.

Another consideration is the G40 and G28 sensors are bad. Did you see a DTC for *00515* _- Camshaft Position (Hall) Sensor (G40)_ and/or *16706/P0322/000802* -_ Engine Speed Sensor (G28): No Signal_?

You can also determine chain stretch with a *VCDS* and/or *OBDeleven* as there is an expected range that can indicate excessive wear -

*Detecting 3.2L V6 Chain Stretch with VCDS*
https://www.ttforum.co.uk/forum/viewtop ... &t=1836951

Unfortunately, Audi doesn't specifically mention the timing chain service, inspection or replacement on the 3.2 (BUB) engines. So the decision to change them tends to be based on other 3.2 owners experience (surfing other Forums or talking to other 3.2 owners).

*2008 Scheduled Maintenance Intervals*
https://www.audiusa.com/content/dam/aud ... r-2008.pdf

In terms of price, would guess (and stand to be corrected) that this will run around $1800 - $2,200 range given it's an engine out job. If you can't find a reliable independent VW-Audi shop who knows the 3.2 VR6 engine, you may want to either ask other Audi owners in your area for a recommendation or bite the bullet and talk to a couple of *Audi Service Centers*, get their opinion/estimate and see what sort of warranty they offer. At least the advantage of having the fault scan is you already know what's going on and can have an educated discussion with them.

Here's what's involved so you can see exactly what may have to be done -

*Install Timing Chains on an R32 VR6*


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## JB2008TT3.2 (May 2, 2021)

I hadn't cleared previous faults... 2nd scan.

OBDeleven vehicle history log
Date: 2021-05-04 08:13:48

VIN: TRUDD38J581039585
Car: 
Year: 2008
Body type: Coupe
Engine: kW ( hp) l
Mileage: 247850 km

---------------------------------------------------------------
01 Engine
System description: TT-3.2-DQ-LEV2 G
Software number: 022906032HG
Software version: 1166
Hardware number: 022906032GP

Faults:
P001600 - Crankshaft Position-Camshaft Position
Correlation Bank 1 Sensor A
static


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## SwissJetPilot (Apr 27, 2014)

Ah! Good catch. 

Unfortunately that *P001600* - _*Crankshaft Position-Camshaft Position*_ is still with you, so that's going to bear consideration as discussed previously.

Is that the only fault showing up?

If so, then IMHO that discounts anything discussed previously regarding plugs, coil packs, etc. that we thought were contributing to the misfire. That's why these fault scans are so helpful as they really nail down what and where the problem is coming from.

Worth a read, just to validate if the G40 sensor is okay or not before you go too far down the rabbit hole -

*P0016 - Crankshaft position/camshaft position, bank 1 sensor A -correlation*
https://www.troublecodes.net/pcodes/p0016/


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## Rufflesj (Jun 22, 2020)

2500 for that???!!! Holy fork, what did they do, gold plate the engine?!


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## Flashy (Nov 8, 2019)

I'm moving to the states to become a mechanic


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## JB2008TT3.2 (May 2, 2021)

LMAO... I think the shop owner/business manager is the one running to the bank. Dealership Mechanic's earn $25-$30hr.

And yes, P0016 is it... I drove to work and cleared my codes... At lunch I drove around for 30 minutes, took the freeway home another 30 minutes... Rescanned P0016...

But I do agree with a previous post, Gears in the engine, what gears lol... I worked on 60's muscle cars in my twenties and that doesn't fly... But now that I understand my engine has a timing chain (not belt) I can see the relevance of a mechanic saying gears to customer with no history makes sense, if it has teeth it's a gear, right...

Anyway I've done the reading and know know what I'm up against...

1. Faulty Camshaft Position Sensor (REPLACED)
2. Faulty Crankcase Pressure Sensor (UNKNOWN) 
3. Camshaft Position Sensor/Crankcase Pressure Sensor harness is open or shorted (REPAIRED)
4. Camshaft Position Sensor/Crankcase Pressure Sensor circuit poor electrical connection (REPAIRED)
5. Timing Chain/Mechanical Defect. (UNKNOWN)

Recommend REPAIRS:

1. Reset fault codes and performing a road test (DONE)
2. Replace camshaft sensor on bank 1 (DONE)
3. Repair wiring or connection to the camshaft OCV or camshaft sensor (?)
4. Replace camshaft OCV for bank 1 exhaust camshaft (?)
5. Replace the timing chain and guides (LAST RESORT).

But I think this is what the shop owner was referencing. (P.S. Shop time in my area is usually charged at $150hr)

The remaining code is kinda critical...

The engine can have stalling or hesitations along with hard starting.

The timing chain may have problems with tensioners or guides and can lead to major engine damage if the valves hit the pistons.

Driving the vehicle for a prolonged time with the camshafts out of time may cause additional internal engine problems, depending on the failed part.

In my research, the repair work costs less than a low mileage rebuilt engine $1,800 plus labor. It's under consideration unless I can find a shop who can do it for less.


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## SwissJetPilot (Apr 27, 2014)

@ *Flashy* - I'll make a quick drive up to Ingolstadt and pick up the parts from the Audi factory shelf, then meet you at Heathrow and off we go for some quick work and fun weekend at Disneyland! With these prices, we'll still have pocket money for the return trip! 

@ *JB2008TT3.2* - I really hope you got all your parts back. Considering the _*Valve Cover*_ alone was nearly a third of the total cost of these repairs. In fact, the more I think about this I would DEMAND an explanation of exactly why they charged you for a new one given it had nothing to do with the fault codes. A set of seals, okay - but $581 for valve cover is total BS unless it was cracked and that crack contributed to the leaking spark plug seal. Also, there was no fault code for a failed PCV valve; _*18711/P2279/008825 - Leak in Air Intake System*_ so it's not an unreasonable question as to why they charged you for a new one or why the *Vent Tube* was also replaced.

I will bet you there's nothing wrong with the *Breather Hose / Breather Tube* either since there's nothing inside it that can fail. Unless it's cracked and leaking, which would have shown up in the DTC listed above, then there's no reason to replace it. I actually came up with a simple $30 work-around for the failed *PCV Diaphragm* to avoid these ridiculous charge due to a really stupid design from Audi.

I hate to say it, but IMHO I think you got ripped off on the *Valve Cover* and *Breather Hose* to the tune of $730!

*VR6 3.2 (BUB) PCV Diaphragm Replacement Alternative*
https://www.ttforum.co.uk/forum/viewtop ... &t=1965923

Considering your mileage, if you do end up replacing the timing chains and they pull the engine, it would probably be a good time to have a few other parts closely inspected and/or replaced. With the engine in, the *Accessory Belt* is a relatively simply DIY. But the *Water Pump* and *Thermostat* can be a real PITA since the bumper and radiator are usually removed in order to get to them resulting in extra labor charges -

• Accessory belt, tensioner and idler pulleys
• Water pump and thermostat

You might also take a good look at your *Oil Cooler* as they tend to corrode as they get older and can either leak externally (which is messy) or worse, they can leak internally resulting in mixing oil and coolant. Since you're in California, corrosion isn't such an issue as we have here in Europe with salty winter roads. But be aware of it given age and mileage.

*How to: VR6 3.2 Accessory Belt, Tensioner & Pulley Repair*
https://www.ttforum.co.uk/forum/viewtop ... &t=1983693

Since you have the mechanical background, if you want to take on some of the easier, more DIY friendly work, we have the 3.2 BUB engine *Workshop Manuals* available here and several other very knowledgeable 3.2 owners who can help -

*FAQ - Audi TT (8J) Workshop Manuals & Self Study Programs*
https://www.ttforum.co.uk/forum/viewtop ... &t=1833829

*FAQ - MK2 3.2 VR-6 (BUB) Maintenance & Service*
https://www.ttforum.co.uk/forum/viewtop ... &t=2010435


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## Flashy (Nov 8, 2019)

:lol:


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## SwissJetPilot (Apr 27, 2014)

I believe the *Oil Control Valve (OCV)* you mentioned refers to the _*N205 Camshaft Adjustment Valve*_ shown below. As I mentioned about the Coil Pack connectors getting brittle due to the heat, it's possible the *N205 Harness Connector* was also bad and they replaced it too...and I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt on this.

Looking over your invoice, I really have no idea why they charged you $8.80 for a *Turbo Oil Line O-Ring* when the 3.2 VR6 doesn't have a turbo...??? Perhaps that's supposed to be the *N205 Seal Ring* which would make sense. When you go back for your *Valve Cover* and *Vent Tube* refund, you may want to ask them to 'splain themselves on this one too!

Since you're in California, you have a very strong consumer protection system. If you think you were pulled over the table and the shop refuses to resolve the issues to your satisfaction, then you do have other resources available -

https://www.bar.ca.gov/Consumer/Auto_Re ... our-rights
https://www.aftermarketmatters.com/regi ... to-repair/

Just my two cents here, but it's a good habit to require that a shop includes the part names and part numbers so you know exactly what was replaced. Always, always, always get each and every part, seal, gasket and screw back from them as proof they were actually replaced. These are your parts after all. In fact, they are required to do so by (California) law if you ask ahead of time.

For future reference, anytime a shop does a fault scan, tell them you want a print out of the report *before* they do the work and and another *after* the work has been completed. This way you know what your car came in with and what it's going out with. As you discovered yourself, this shop never cleared the two faults associated with the repairs (*P030000* & _*P030200*_) and didn't bother to adequately address the more serious *P001600*.

Again the advantage of the *OBDeleven* is being able to do this yourself so you can keep the conversation honest and you are no longer at the mercy of a shop.

*Maybe some good news - *

You should be aware there was a class action suit on *Timing Chains* and *Timing Chain Tensioners* which may be applicable to your situation. With the information you have on hand, it might be worth a trip to an authorized *Audi Service Center* and have a sit down chat with the Service Manager to discuss what options may be available to you -

_"Volkswagen has agreed to extend warranties on the timing chains and timing chain tensioners in affected vehicles to cover the parts for 100,000 miles or for 10 years. ... Class vehicles that require both the timing chain and timing chain tensioner to be repaired or replaced will receive a refund of no more than $2,000."_

Worth a read -

https://timingchainlitigation.com/CheckVIN

http://autobahn-performance.com/audi-vw ... formation/


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## JB2008TT3.2 (May 2, 2021)

I was bright eyed for a moment, alas my VIN is ineligible.


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## SwissJetPilot (Apr 27, 2014)

Well that is unfortunate. :?

I'm not sure if we can do much more for you at this point. Even if your VIN didn't show up, it might be worth a chat with a few local *Audi Service Centers* in your area and find out if they're willing to offer any sort 'goodwill gesture' for the timing chain recall and see what they're willing to do to help you out.

In the UK at least, some *Audi Service Centers* were willing to offer a 'goodwill gesture' for the *Window Regulator* problems in the early models even through Audi UK refused to respond with an official recall campaign.

It's really going to be up to the shop you talk to, but asking is free and the worst thing they can say is "No".


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## Jezzie (May 24, 2020)

JB2008TT3.2 said:


> I was bright eyed for a moment, alas my VIN is ineligible.


Just wondering where/how you checked your VIN for eligibility?
Jez


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## JB2008TT3.2 (May 2, 2021)

That was included in one of SJP's replies...

https://timingchainlitigation.com/CheckVIN


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## FNChaos (Nov 30, 2016)

Jezzie said:


> Just wondering where/how you checked your VIN for eligibility?
> Jez


VIN look-up site was for affected US vehicles only (result of a class-action lawsuit)
Reimbursement amount was based on vehicle age & mileage.
Claims needed to be submitted by Jan 25 2019 for consideration (so even if you qualified it's too late)

The EU was more 'laissez-faire' in their approach to the problem, allowing dealers to decide what they would / would not allow. Some EU owners have gotten lucky, but the window of opportunity is likely passed considering the age of the MK2.


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## SwissJetPilot (Apr 27, 2014)

The US, UK, Canada and Australia all had various civil suits on the VAG tensioners and timing chains. Obviously, every country has different consumer laws and the limitations, so conditions and results would be different in each country. However as *FNChaos* mentioned, the window of opportunity may well have closed by now -

There may be other sites on this topic, but here's what I was able to dig up. -

*USA -* 
https://www.timingchainlitigation.com/

*UK -* 
Not found - anyone?

*Canada -*
https://www.timingchainsettlement.ca/

*Austraila - *
https://www.mauriceblackburn.com.au/cla ... ss-action/

*Older post on this topic from this forum -*

*Timing chain tensioner lawsuit in the US*
https://www.ttforum.co.uk/forum/viewtop ... 1#p7401761

_This is the link to the document all in German I'm afraid._

*Defective Timing Chain Report*
http://www.a3quattro.de/pdf/Bericht_VR6 ... neVers.pdf

_The main points are that* Audi changed chain maker (Sachs) and they stamped their logo too deep on each link causing a weakness*. When I spoke to Audi they were very hung up on my car a 55 plate A3 78000 miles not having full dealer service history but after a lot of going back and forward I contributed £2000 towards a £5000 bill just to get the car to a position that I could sell it. Audi refused to offer me more than bottom book £3000 but I traded it to a dealer and got £4000 against my TT roadster. Good luck speaking to Audi stay calm and dig your heels in they will not admit liability but should help you. All in all it took about three months to resolve my issue but still leaves a bad taste in my mouth._


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## SwissJetPilot (Apr 27, 2014)

With a little online magic, I was able to translate the report and have provided a brief overview of the findings. I highly recommend you download and translate it yourself as it provides some excellent information on diagnostics and repairs.

_FYI - you can use a free, online PDF to DOC conversion service and copy paste the text into Deepl.com translator_.

The timing chain normally lasts for the life of the car, however as stated above, the primary defect was due to the manufacturers name (Sachs) stamped too deeply into the links, there is nothing that can be done other than to replace it.

The report also stated that owners should use the specified oil viscosity and follow the manufacturers oil and filter change schedule. If the vehicle is not operated to the mileage intervals, then it should be changed every 12-months. This is done to minimize build up of acids and particulates which can lead to corrosion and abrasion of the chain and other moving parts. Long life oil was not recommend as acidity and particulates can increase the longer it remains in the engine.

Due to the mass and large fluid volume, the VR-6 engine requires more than 20-kilometres to reach operating temperature noting that the water temperature is not an adequate gauge for engine temperature. The correct operating temperature helps to eliminate water that collects in the sump due to normal condensation, which degrades the ability of the oil to lubricate properly. Therefore the engine should be properly warmed up before hard driving, and more time on longer drives is better than short duration trips where the engine never really reaches temperature.

Since the VR6 has a large number of hydraulically operated components (e.g. chain tensioners, cam adjusters, etc.) oil galleys must remain free and clear. Thus further supporting the point for correct viscosity and frequency of oil changes.

Timing chain elongation is a gradual process and thus very insidious. These engine sound changes do not occur overnight, but gradually become louder and more obvious over a long period of time. The other result is loss of power which can also develop slowly. One of the problems pointed out with adequate diagnostics by local shops is the infrequency of the 3.2 VR6 engines. Since the smaller 1.8 and 2.0 engines are much more popular and are more frequently serviced, the shops are more familiar with them than the larger 3.2 VR6.

Make a point to listen to the timing chain side of the engine at idle for any suspicious sounds. They referenced a link to their website, but I believe these YouTube videos for an A3 3.2 demonstrates it quite well -

*Before - *
*Audi A3 3.2 Timing Chain Noise*





*After - *
*Audi A3 3.2 Noise After Timing Chain Replaced*





Using an OBD scanner, measuring blocks 208 and 209 should be checked every 3-months to monitor if stretch is occurring.

*Detecting 3.2L V6 Chain Stretch with VCDS*
https://www.ttforum.co.uk/forum/viewtop ... &t=1836951


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## JB2008TT3.2 (May 2, 2021)

Hey SWP, you're so knowledgeable (thank you everyone really), my complete gratitude, I'm going over your last post after this reply, also going to Circle Audi Friday (dropping it off)... It's acting up again. Did another scan today on the way home and got codes:

OBDeleven vehicle history log
Date: 2021-05-06 16:55:07

VIN: TRUDD38J581039585
Car: 
Year: 2008
Body type: Coupe
Engine: kW ( hp) l
Mileage: 247960 km

---------------------------------------------------------------
01 Engine
System description: TT-3.2-DQ-LEV2 G
Software number: 022906032HG
Software version: 1166
Hardware number: 022906032GP

Faults:
P001600 - Crankshaft Position-Camshaft Position
Correlation Bank 1 Sensor A
Intermittent
P030200 - Cyl.2
Misfire Detected
static
P030000 - Random/Multiple Cylinder
Misfire Detected
static

Coil packs... Definitely need a look over, don't know why these weren't replaced, an ENA 6 pack is $100 should take about 10 minutes.


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## FNChaos (Nov 30, 2016)

JB2008TT3.2 said:


> Coil packs... Definitely need a look over, don't know why these weren't replaced, an ENA 6 pack is $100 should take about 10 minutes.


Yeah, considering they charged you almost $70 labor to change your spark plugs they might as well have replaced your coil packs while they had them out (zero additional labor).


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## SwissJetPilot (Apr 27, 2014)

@ *JB2008TT3.2* - If the engine is still acting up and you're still seeing those codes, then yeah, it's probably time. You really don't want to push your luck and possibly end up with the chain jumping a tooth so I'd advise taking it easy.

To be honest, after reading through that report I will be checking my own chain more frequently and listening a bit closer. I should probably run a scan again soon just to see if anything's gotten worse given it was showing *-2°* in *Block 208* back in 2018.

It would be interesting to know your *Measuring Block 208* and *209* values and also to hear what your engine sounds like on cold start above and around the timing chain cover as shown in the previous *YouTube* links.

For this sort of diagnostic, the *OBDeleven* has the same capabilities as the *VCDS*, but obviously in a different format from the image in the previous post. There's a good _*YouTube*_ from *Deutsche Auto Parts* who walks you through how to do this with an *OBEleven*.

• Measurements must always be taken at a minimum of about 60°C operating/oil temperature or higher, otherwise the cam adjustment is not yet fully active.

• Measurements are always taken at idle

Note that he's doing it on a 2.0 TSI so he only looks at *Measuring Block 93*. For the 3.2 VR6 you'll need to look at *208* and *209* as described in the German report.

Also mentioned in the report are DTCs *17755* and *17748* which they state "_indicate an elongated upper roller chain_". Given you have the *P001600* fault code, I think it's safe to assume these are all related to the same problem as discussed previously.

• 17755/P1347/004935 - Camshaft Position Sensor 2 (G163) / Engine Speed Sensor (G28): Incorrect Correlation
• 17748/P1340/004928 - Camshaft Position Sensor (G40) / Engine Speed Sensor (G28): Incorrect Correlation
• 16400/P0016/000022 - Bank 1: Camshaft Position Sensor (G40) / Engine Speed Sensor (G28): Incorrect Correlation

Below you can see my *OBDeleven* screen shots I made on my tablet just sitting at my desk, so this is really pretty simple to do. If you can share your screen shots and possibly post a YouTube of your engine sounds before you take it in, that would be awesome addition to the Forum. 

As a side note, there is a procedure for visually checking for chain stretch which is detailed in the report under *Section 5.3* which states -

"The safest method of detecting elongation of the upper timing chain is the manual visual inspection. The effort is minimal and you are on the safe side, unlike diagnosis via OBD and reading the fault code. The visual inspection takes less than 30 minutes."

While the reports does recommend the OBD diagnosis, they believe what they can see more than what's detected which, if you think about it, does makes sense if a sensor is bad and the reported data is not 100% accurate. However it will require pulling parts off in order to get access to do this, but the pictures provided in the report make it clear how and what has to be done to do it.

Based on the recommendations in the report, these are three methods of diagnostics to determine chain stretch -

• Noise
• OBD Scan - Fault codes and Measurement Blocks 208 & 209
• Visual Inspection[/b]

*TSB worth a read - *

View attachment ENGINE - MIL on Noise from Timing Chain (DTC P001600).pdf

*Check your 2.0t TSI VW | Audi for Timing Chain Stretch*


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## SwissJetPilot (Apr 27, 2014)

The German report describes the procedure for visual inspection in Section 5.3 which I have summarized below. It seems pretty straight forward, however I can't find the image in the workshop manual (A005TT01120) where they reference the "normal" position of the Camshaft Adjuster.

Not having done this, it seems that you can't actually see the chain, but only the position of the Camshaft Adjusters relative to the position of the Crank Pulley. Question is - what are the visible landmarks that can be seen through the Hall Sensor openings that would indicate if the Camshaft Adjusters are in the correct position or not?

If anyone knows, or has any supporting images, please post them - *EDIT - see post below for visual inspection -*

• On the Accessory Belt side of the engine, there is an alignment mark on the engine block. Turn the Crank Pulley so that the mark on the pulley is aligned with the marking on the block.

• Remove the Air Filter Box.

• Disconnect the wiring harnesses on the side of the engine where the Hall Sensors are located and remove both Hall sensors (G40 & G163).

• Looking through where the Hall Sensors were located, the Workshop Manual provides the "normal position".

• If the Camshaft Adjusters do not match the pictures, then a repair is necessary,

*FAQ - Audi TT (8J) Workshop Manuals & Self Study Programs*
*3.2 Engine, BUB, CBRA, 3.2, 6-cylinder Injection, 3.2 ltr. 4-valve, Mechanics (A005TT01120)*
https://www.ttforum.co.uk/forum/viewtop ... &t=1833829


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## SwissJetPilot (Apr 27, 2014)

Latest update on this topic including how to perform a *visual inspection* from a German *TSB 20123815*, originally for the Audi A3 which includes the images of the *Cam Adjusters* with the *Hall Sensors* removed as shown in the post above -

*FAQ - 3.2 VR-6 Timing Chain - Fault Codes 17755 & 17748*
https://www.ttforum.co.uk/forum/viewtop ... &t=2013625


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## JB2008TT3.2 (May 2, 2021)

What I have on 208 is +4*... I'll check 209 after the drive to work tomorrow, but 4* is not that bad, I'm aware after measuring blocks 208 and 209. If out more than +/- 8* you need to pull the engine and or transmission (depending on your prefered method of access to the block and replace the chains, guides and sprockets even the hpfp sprocket, if it suffers wear on the lobe. But I'm not seeing it at +4* no squeel, loud pitch or grinding sounds. What does happen at idle (I get to work 15min early and idle for 10min, listen to tunes, check email, social media etc.), but it's smooth, on occasion it roughs up like all cylinders are not working together, then goes back smooth...

I really don't think this is the camshaft position sensory (because that was replaced), presumably it's the coil in cylinder #2... So I pulled the trigger and purchased 6 new coils. Will install them when I've a minute... Swiss thanks for the write up, screw driver and zip tie, not too fancy. I'll clear my codes and rescan, be back soon.

Thank you all for your continued efforts and support, it's much appreciated... Because if that's not it I'm at least armed with the diagnostic tools to move forwards, without being at someone's mercy.


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## JB2008TT3.2 (May 2, 2021)

OBD 208,209


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## Wolvez (Jun 22, 2018)

Try disconnecting the MAF sensor before starting the engine. If engine run better without the MAF sensor it could be faulty.


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## MT-V6 (Jan 11, 2015)

Possibly worth investing in the coil puller tool, you can get cheap Chinese ones on eBay. See my post here https://www.ttforum.co.uk/forum/viewtop ... &t=1286697


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## JB2008TT3.2 (May 2, 2021)

MAF may need a wash, but I've no error codes for it, we'll give it a soak see what happens.

No codes: 16485 - Mass Air Flow Sensor (G70): Implausible Signal P0101 - 008.


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## SwissJetPilot (Apr 27, 2014)

I had a good chat with one of the guys on the *Audi A3 Forum* who is well versed in the 3.2 VR6 engine and timing chain history. I asked him if he thought it would be possible to determine chain stretch by physically measuring the Cam Adjusters through the Hall Sensor openings. As it turns out, this isn't really viable since contaminants or sludge inside the vanes could put the *Cam Adjusters* out of position. Therefore the distance between the marks (A) & (B) or (A) & (C) would be meaningless.

On a more positive note, I was able to confirm from *Uwe Ross* (Ross Tech) how to test the *Cam Adjuster Valves* (Solenoids) shown as *N205* and *N318* using the *VCDS* with Groups 094 and 096 -

*3.2 VR6 Cam Adjuster Valve (Solenoid) Test with VCDS - *

For the intake cam, it's *Basic Settings, Group 094*.
• Engine warmed up and idling
• "Activate" Basic Setting
• Firmly press Brake Pedal and Throttle Pedal at once
• Engine Speed will increase to 2200 RPM automatically > Field 3 = Test ON
• Wait until Field 3 shows "Syst. OK"

For the exhaust, it's the same, but *Group 096*.

If the N205 and N318 solenoids are functioning correctly, the test will show "*Syst. OK*" upon completion.


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## JB2008TT3.2 (May 2, 2021)

Okay, so check replace G40 is what my codes suggest... That was done, but I still have the code, no matter how many times I clear and run, run OBD11 it still comes up... Coil Packs, done, connectors checked, timing checked, I still have the same codes...

OBDeleven vehicle history log
Date: 2021-05-06 16:55:07

VIN: TRUDD38J581039585
Car: 
Year: 2008
Body type: Coupe
Engine: kW ( hp) l
Mileage: 247960 km

---------------------------------------------------------------
01 Engine
System description: TT-3.2-DQ-LEV2 G
Software number: 022906032HG
Software version: 1166
Hardware number: 022906032GP

Faults:
P001600 - Crankshaft Position-Camshaft Position
Correlation Bank 1 Sensor A
Intermittent
P030200 - Cyl.2
Misfire Detected
static
P030000 - Random/Multiple Cylinder
Misfire Detected
static

I purchased a new MAF and will install as soon at it arrives... (No error code for that).

So WTF is wrong with my engine?


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## SwissJetPilot (Apr 27, 2014)

Since P0016 references the *G40* and *G28* have you considered replacing both of them?

*16400/P0016/000022 - Bank 1: Camshaft Position Sensor (G40) / Engine Speed Sensor (G28): Incorrect Correlation*

It should be possible to run a *Basic Setting* test for these similar to *N205* and *N318* shown previously. These are all possible with VCDS, but I'm not sure if the OBDeleven has these Basic Settings.

• Engine Speed (Knock) Sensor G28 = Block 28
• Camshaft Position (Hall) Sensors G40 = Block 208
• Camshaft Position (Hall) Sensor G163 = Block 209


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## JB2008TT3.2 (May 2, 2021)

Replaced Coilpacks, scanned again.

OBDeleven vehicle history log
Date: 2021-05-17 05:49:22

VIN: TRUDD38J581039585
Car: 
Year: 2008
Body type: Coupe
Engine: kW ( hp) l
Mileage: 248210 km

---------------------------------------------------------------
01 Engine
System description: TT-3.2-DQ-LEV2 G
Software number: 022906032HG
Software version: 1166
Hardware number: 022906032GP

Faults:
P001600 - Crankshaft Position-Camshaft Position
Correlation Bank 1 Sensor A
Intermittent
priority - 0 
frequencyCounter - 2 
drivingCycle - 255 
km-Mileage - 248193 km
date - 2021-05-17 05:17:33


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## SwissJetPilot (Apr 27, 2014)

There's obviously something going on since you keep getting the *P0016 DTC* since this would indicate both the Camshaft Position Sensor (*G40*) and Engine Speed Sensor (_*G28*_) don't seem to agree with each other.

And from what you've shown in your fault scan, these two faults are not showing up which would indicate something's not right with one or both of these sensors -

*• 00515 - Camshaft Position (Hall) Sensor (G40)
• P0321 - Engine Speed Sensor (G28)*

I've also posted on the *Ross Tech Forum* asking how to perform a *Basic Setting* test of these sensors in hopes of determining if there's possibly something gong on that's just not being reported.

https://forums.ross-tech.com/index.php? ... ost-237085

I found this *G28 Engine Speed Sensor Test* from a Bently manual, but need to double check these resistance values are correct for the Audi TT Mk2 (BUB) 3.2 VR6 engine. Since *G28* is a Hall sensor, I would think this should also apply to *G40* (and *G163*) but I'm still digging. I supposed you could check all three and see what sort of values you've got and how much of a delta exists.

*How to Test a Crankshaft Position Sensor Using a Multimeter*
https://axleaddict.com/auto-repair/How- ... Multimeter









View attachment CheckingG28EngineSpeedSensor.pdf


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## SwissJetPilot (Apr 27, 2014)

So, from the "You learn something new every day" department comes this eye-opener -

On the back of the *Valve Timing Housing* is a very small filter screen. As you can imagine, at some point, this could become compromised (either blocked or restricted) and would affect the performance of the Cam Adjuster Valves and Cam Adjuster (Variator).

Unfortunately, this would require a complete tear down of the cams in order to get to it.


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## JB2008TT3.2 (May 2, 2021)

"Swiss"!!! Yeah, that would be kinda shitty lol! But I'd do an engine flush, or several before even thinking about that... I change my oil religiously, every 3k miles, so I don't see how that would be a problem easily overcome by a flush...

After I replaced my coil packs, there seems to be no misfires, ruff running or previous errors. After inspection 3 of 6 coil connectors are flawed (broken or fowled female clip) but my coils (original VW's that I replaced, or replacement coils, ENA) connectors have no male insert, seems nonsensical if OEM doesn't have them and everything is snugg.

Just in case, does anyone have a part number for these guys?

Everything seems to be running fine, no sputter or power loss, accept I still have that pesky P0016 error code (bank 1 sensor A or G40) .... Which the shop said was replaced. It can't be faulty wiring because it reads... Maybe it's a mid communication problem G40 faulty G28... Personally I'm take a close look at G40 and see if it was done (or charged but not executed) then simply purchase the remaining four sensors, they are 13 years old after all, $50-$100, each so why not!

Just asking, but how did you get a info window to open after scanning 208, 209... I can't get that? After scanning no matter what I press, this is all I get? There's no extended resource or information screen.


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## FNChaos (Nov 30, 2016)

Replacing coils & plugs is always a good first step when dealing with intermittent misfires and there is no harm replacing inexpensive sensors proactively (especially considering their age), but throwing parts at a problem isn't really troubleshooting. Error codes can help point you in the right direction but quite often they don't tell the complete story.

Even though you've replaced your cam & crankshaft sensors you have no idea if their output is good. Your timing chain may not be stretched but there still could be movement (due to wear) on your crankshaft or camshaft gear. Your cam adjuster may be defective or as SJP pointed out it may be oil starved due to sludge or a clogged filter screen.

Since bad things can happen when your timing is out, you shouldn't put off replacement (probably shouldn't even drive it until repaired)

Here is a video (warning, it is rather long) that shows what a competent mechanic can do with the right tools (unfortunately tools you or I don't have). His problem isn't necessarily yours, but if you stick with it to the end you'll note that everything is done without guesswork, part 'shotgunning' or tearing the motor down. 
See: 




When you are looking at a major repair, you want to find a mechanic who is able to tell you why exactly your motor is failing with demonstrable proof.

Note: FWIW, I also found a couple of videos showing how a little bit of wear on your crankshaft gear can create similar problems
See: 



&


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## SwissJetPilot (Apr 27, 2014)

I think *FNChaos* and I are of the same mind set on this. Given your engine's age and mileage, chain stretch is a very real possibility. If the tensioners are failing, as they do, it would put the *Cam Shaft* out of sync with the *Crank Shaft* since they are all interconnected. That *P00160 fault code* seems to be pointing to this.

I'm just trying to eliminate as many other possible causes before you open up the engine. If replacing Coil Pack connectors along with G40 and G28 Hall sensors doesn't resolve the P00160 fault, then it may be time to take it to someone that really knows this engine.

_"I'd do an engine flush, or several before even thinking about that... I change my oil religiously, every 3k miles, so I don't see how that would be a problem easily overcome by a flush..."_

Agreed to a point. That screen is a very fine mesh and a flush may not dissolve any solid debris that may have accumulated. In fact, it could make things worse if the flush releases more particles from the sump or various oil channels which could end up accumulating behind the screen. But like you, this is exactly why I change my oil frequently too. Oil and filters are cheap insurance.

_"Just in case, does anyone have a part number for these guys?"_

Looks like P/N 4B0973724. But for whatever reason the 3.2 isn't listed separately (http://www.oemepc.com/audi/ ) so this may be the same for both the 2.0 and 3.2 engines. But double check with an *Audi Service Center* to be sure or take a close look at one of your connectors and see if you can find a PN molded into the part.

_"G40 faulty G28 are 13 years old after all, $50-$100."_
Hopefully that will resolve the P00160 fault. They look easy enough to replace, just one bolt. But since the fault scan didn't bring up a separate DTC for either one, I'm not sure if it's necessary. But at this point it can't hurt.

_"How did you get a info window to open after scanning 208, 209."_
I'm not sure if OBDeleven has ability to view multiple Measuring Block like VCDS. There may be an option under *Live Data* to select the ones you want to see. FYI - I sent an email to the *VoltasIT* team asking how to do this.

Worth a watch on the coil connectors -

How VW Parts Fail ~ 2.0t Ignition Coil Connectors


----------



## JB2008TT3.2 (May 2, 2021)

Cam sensors replaced (I know shotgunning parts, but maybe G40 was bad out of the box).

208 was at 4*, 209 was at 0*, after the change out, both were 4*...

What puzzles me, is that a day latter 208 read 0*, 209 at 5*

Like, WTF! How do you trouble shoot something that goes backwards on you in 24hrs?


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## SwissJetPilot (Apr 27, 2014)

@ *JB2008TT3.2* - Did you perform all your tests at the same operating temperature?


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## JB2008TT3.2 (May 2, 2021)

20 minutes on the road, so yes.


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## SwissJetPilot (Apr 27, 2014)

@ *JB2008TT3.2* - Are you still getting these faults?

*P001600* - Crankshaft Position-Camshaft Position
-16400/P0016/000022 - Bank 1: Camshaft Position Sensor (G40) / Engine Speed Sensor (G28): Incorrect Correlation
*P030000* - Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected
- 16684/P0300/000768 - Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected
*P030200* - Cyl.2 Misfire Detected
- 16686/P0302/000770 - Cylinder 2 Misfire Detected


----------



## JB2008TT3.2 (May 2, 2021)

OBDeleven vehicle history log
Date: 2021-06-04 05:46:04

VIN: TRUDD38J581039585
Car: 
Year: 2008
Body type: Coupe
Engine: kW ( hp) l
Mileage: 248640 km

---------------------------------------------------------------
01 Engine
System description: TT-3.2-DQ-LEV2 G
Software number: 022906032HG
Software version: 1166
Hardware number: 022906032GP

Faults:
P001700 - Crankshaft Position-Camshaft Position
Correlation Bank 1 Sensor B
Intermittent
priority - 0 
frequencyCounter - 11 
drivingCycle - 255 
km-Mileage - 248477 km
date - 2021-05-28 14:38:42

P001600 - Crankshaft Position-Camshaft Position
Correlation Bank 1 Sensor A
Intermittent
priority - 0 
frequencyCounter - 8 
drivingCycle - 255 
km-Mileage - 248494 km
date - 2021-05-28 15:09:00


----------



## SwissJetPilot (Apr 27, 2014)

@ *JB2008TT3.2* - IMHO your last option at this point is to replace the (G28) Speed Sensor and see if that eliminates the P001600 - Crankshaft Position-Camshaft Position fault.

If that has no effect, then it may be time to find a trusted mechanic to have a look before you end up dong some real damage.


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## FNChaos (Nov 30, 2016)

JB2008TT3.2 said:


> Cam sensors replaced (I know shotgunning parts, but maybe G40 was bad out of the box).
> 
> 208 was at 4*, 209 was at 0*, after the change out, both were 4*...
> 
> ...


Your camshaft position sensors are repeatably throwing 'correlation' errors, meaning both sensors don't agree as to where everything is in relationship to each other. This is done as a 'sanity check' in case one sensor goes bad.

For example if Sensor 1 measures position "X" and Sensor 2 measures position "Y" then if Sensor 1 moves to position X+1 Sensor 2 should read Y+1. 
If "Y" reads anything else then you can conclude that the *relationship* between the two positions is not stable.

Since the fault is reoccurring and you've changed both sensors, the most probable cause for the variation is 'slop' in the timing chain, slop in the pulleys or a defective cam adjuster.


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## JB2008TT3.2 (May 2, 2021)

Thanks Swiss, Chaos&#8230; Finding a trust mechanic around these parts who will do the necessary work (my assessment is new upper guides and tensioners engine in) everyone wants to pull the engine and do a full timing kit resto with everything else, sprockets seals, hardware etc. I'm being told engine is not doable.

The Dealership wants $7,000
1st shop I went to wants $4,500
OCTuning wants $3,500
AutoHaus wants $3,000

Any thoughts.


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## JB2008TT3.2 (May 2, 2021)

I don't know if it's because I live in SoCal 3 blocks from the beach, just north of Huntington, but I'm getting this&#8230;


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## SwissJetPilot (Apr 27, 2014)

Having lived in NorCal SF Bay area myself, I can speak from experience that CA has some of the highest mechanic costs anywhere. Not out of greed necessarily, but due to the high cost of living in your particular area and due to all the environmental and various regulations shops are constantly over-burdened with; thank the CA legislature for that!

For any shop who tackles this, it's going to be an engine-out service, so you're looking at a lot of labor hours for getting the engine out and back in. As noted in the earlier post, you want to replace all the related chain related components; (e.g. sprockets, tensioners, guides, etc.) if you want this done this right. Given the part prices will probably be about the same, it's down to who will charge you the least for their labor.

Call around as there must be dozens of small independent VW shops in SoCal that can do this. The 3.2 VR6 is a pretty common engine across the entire VAG line, so it's not like it's some sort of exotic. You may have to drive a bit to find someone who can do it, but ask around and do your homework before you pull out your wallet.

Personally I would avoid anyone that advertises "German" or "European" auto repair because that means they work on BMW and Mercedes too. You really want a VW-Audi guy who knows what he's doing and has the experience to back it. When you talk with them, don't just ask what they charge, ask how many 3.2 VR6 chain replacements they've done and when was the last time they did one. The last thing you want is them saying "Sure we can do it!" and then they give it to their "flunky-mechanic-of-the-week" so he can learn how to do a timing chain replacement on your engine.

Also consider anything else you want replaced while it's out; water pump and thermostat, serpentine belt and all the related pulleys, PCV diaphragm (located inside the valve cover), etc. Since you've already paid for the lions share of the labor to get the engine out so you might as well just pony-up for the additional parts and have them replaced while it's all easy to get to. No point paying twice for the labor further down the road.

Second option is doing this yourself. If you have the space, access to some of the special tools you'll need and the time to do it, it would be a great learning experience. Go back to the 12-part video I linked to see what's involved doing this with the engine in the car. You'll only be out the parts prices, which will save you a TON of money since majority of the costs are just for labor. There's loads of YouTube videos and other VAG forums that can help if you can't get the answers here. So don't be afraid to give it a go if you think you're up for the challenge.

Third option, and not the easiest one, is to just to walk away from the car. I know that sucks after what you've already put into it, but you're at that point where you either pay to keep going it no matter what or get rid of it. Be honest with yourself and realize 153,000 miles is a lot of miles and things are going to continue to need repair or replacement the longer you own it. You can always trade it in and use that money (plus what you would spend in repairs) towards getting something else with much lower miles.

Tough decisions to be sure. Good luck!


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## JB2008TT3.2 (May 2, 2021)

Swiss, would it be to much to ask that you repost the 4 part video, you referenced&#8230;.

My second '08 TT, was my best, SoCal car, manual transmission, built it up in stages, I-III HPA to 700hp, but always engine in. Never had chain issues on my 1st or second&#8230; These were 180, 160k mile cars, automatic and manual respectively&#8230; I was surprised really that my manual went so long without needing a new clutch. Lengthened the gears and lifted it in place. This chain thing, it's kinda new to me. Gears and pulleys wear over time and chains stretch. But on a DSRG with redline delimited I just don't see that happening&#8230; My 700hp TT didn't need this service, albeit my up shifts were always at about 3,000rpm and down at 1-2k. Still this a new one for me.

I wouldn't mind the ask, the investment, but having done so much on my second TT, tuning it myself, paying someone $400 - $700 an hour for an 8-10hr job is just ridiculous.


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## SwissJetPilot (Apr 27, 2014)

Here's a list of the entire 12-part series topics - 

*Est '83 - Timing Chain on Golf R32 Mk5 (VR6)*
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7f6b4 ... fWg/videos

Timing Chain on Golf R32 Mk5 (VR6) - Part 1 - Bonnet Bumper Battery Removal
Timing Chain on Golf R32 Mk5 (VR6) - Part 2 - Cross-member Radiator Fan Removal
Timing Chain on Golf R32 Mk5 (VR6) - Part 3 - Intake Manifold Removal and Coils
Timing Chain on Golf R32 Mk5 (VR6) - Part 4 - Thermostat and Starter Motor
Timing Chain on Golf R32 Mk5 (VR6) - Part 5 - Driveshafts and Subframe
Timing Chain on Golf R32 Mk5 (VR6) - Part 6 - Gearbox Removal
Timing Chain on Golf R32 Mk5 (VR6) - Part 7 - Clutch and Covers
Timing Chain on Golf R32 Mk5 (VR6) - Part 8 - Removing Chains and New Chain Guides
Timing Chain on Golf R32 Mk5 (VR6) - Part 9 - Fitting New Chains and Timing
Timing Chain on Golf R32 Mk5 (VR6) - Part 10 - Main Rear Seal and Starting to Rebuild
Timing Chain on Golf R32 Mk5 (VR6) - Part 11 - Clutch and Flywheel Replacement
Timing Chain on Golf R32 Mk5 (VR6) - Part 12 - First Start!

I agree that paying that kind of money is not easy and the challenge of this job is not to be taken lightly.


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## JB2008TT3.2 (May 2, 2021)

Thanks Swiss, looks like I'm going to get this done, no garage to DIY anymore, so I'm putting together parts to save on that side of the bill:

ECS timing chain replacement kit. (chains and guides).
Kit includes the old style tensioner "H" will "K" fit? 06K109467K?

Accessory Belt.

Street Density Motor Mount Kit.
Kit includes Engine, transmission, and dogbone mounts with 60 Durometer street density rubber.

Engine Oil Cooler.

Intermediate Timing Sprocket (outer, upper chain).

Any other bits I should get?


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## SwissJetPilot (Apr 27, 2014)

I would follow the recommendations in the *Charles the Humble Mechanic* video. You can also email him directly as he just released a new 3.2 VR6 timing chain video. I sent Charles an email asking about a parts list for this so I'll let you know as soon as I hear back.

I would also look around for other source as *ECS Tuning* prices are pretty steep. I suspect you can do better buying directly from Audi to be honest. Check the video from Charles I linked previously.. FYI he works closely with *Deutsche Auto Parts*, so you may be able to source a complete timing chain kit from them.

While you have the valve cover off, get yourself a new PCV diaphragm from *RKX Tech* since Audi doesn't sell these as replacement parts.

*3.2 VR-6 (BUB) PCV Diaphragm Replacement*
https://www.ttforum.co.uk/forum/viewtop ... 7#p9043387

Given the mileage, you may want to consider replacing the accessory belt, tensinoer and idler pulleys and the water pump and thermostat. These are always easier if you're pulling the engine anyway.


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## SwissJetPilot (Apr 27, 2014)

Here's the reply from Charles -

_Yep I'm working on it. It will take me a few days (probably next week), because I have yet to find a site that actually does ALL the stuff. Have him VCDS check it, and look at timing. _

I sent him your latest fault codes and your 208 and 209 data, let's see what he says.


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## FNChaos (Nov 30, 2016)

SwissJetPilot said:


> I would also look around for other source as *ECS Tuning* prices are pretty steep. I suspect you can do better buying directly from Audi to be honest. Check the video from Charles I linked previously.. FYI he works closely with *Deutsche Auto Parts*, so you may be able to source a complete timing chain kit from them.


I agree. Sometimes you can get a good deal @ ECS but I would compare pricing with other vendors.
Since your located in the US, here are a couple of additional places to consider:

https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/aud ... v6,1438372
https://www.getaudiparts.com/v-2008-aud ... -2l-v6-gas
https://www.germanautosupply.com/catalo ... -.-3~2L.V6
https://www.shopdap.com/make-model-year ... -2014.html
https://www.urotuning.com/collections/a ... k2-3-2l-v6
https://www.moddedeuros.com/audi/tt/mk2-08-13
https://www.uspmotorsports.com/Audi--TT ... --3.2L-VR6

I've used all of the above sites at one time or another, no problems with any of them. Of course YMMV.


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## TT'sRevenge (Feb 28, 2021)

JB2008TT3.2 said:


> Swiss, would it be to much to ask that you repost the 4 part video, you referenced&#8230;.
> 
> My second '08 TT, was my best, SoCal car, manual transmission, built it up in stages, I-III HPA to 700hp, but always engine in. Never had chain issues on my 1st or second&#8230; These were 180, 160k mile cars, automatic and manual respectively&#8230; I was surprised really that my manual went so long without needing a new clutch. Lengthened the gears and lifted it in place. This chain thing, it's kinda new to me. Gears and pulleys wear over time and chains stretch. But on a DSRG with redline delimited I just don't see that happening&#8230; My 700hp TT didn't need this service, albeit my up shifts were always at about 3,000rpm and down at 1-2k. Still this a new one for me.
> 
> I wouldn't mind the ask, the investment, but having done so much on my second TT, tuning it myself, paying someone $400 - $700 an hour for an 8-10hr job is just ridiculous.


Wait you had a 700hp Mk2 VR6??? What did you do with this car? And how did you end up with the one you have now?


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## FNChaos (Nov 30, 2016)

JB2008TT3.2 said:


> My second '08 TT, was my best, SoCal car, manual transmission, built it up in stages, I-III HPA to 700hp, but always engine in.





TT'sRevenge said:


> Wait you had a 700hp Mk2 VR6??? What did you do with this car? And how did you end up with the one you have now?


Yeah, according to HPA you'd need to add a turbo to the 3.2 V6, plus build up the block, lower compression, install a 3-disk carbon clutch, add a secondary fuel system, etc. to get near 700hp. Not possible without pulling the motor.
Only USD *$16,590.00* for the kit! :lol:

See: https://www.hpamotorsports.com/coll...00-vr6-turbo-kit-705hp?variant=35999366545562






As a California native, I can guarantee that an upgrade like this would never pass CA emissions testing (and would be too onerous a job to return to stock between tests). Track use only


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## SwissJetPilot (Apr 27, 2014)

I loved the statement "_intoxicating performance_"...another way of saying the price will make your head spin! :lol:

I'd use that 16K and put it towards an R8 before I dumped it on beefing up a VR6.


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## Barr_end (Oct 19, 2016)

Just trying to help this along before the likely job of the chains being done...

Both cam shaft sensors were replaced for genuine items?
Non- genuine ones of these can cause havoc!


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## JB2008TT3.2 (May 2, 2021)

Barr, yes, original parts.

Here We're going off topic but, questions were asked, I'll answer.

Chaos&#8230; Thanks for chiming in, and TT's Revenge. Also somewhere up there, apologies, forgot your handle but, your suggestion "why not buy an R8"? Was heard&#8230; This is my response: She's sexy I'll admit, has a 5.2-liter naturally aspirated V10 engine that puts out 600hp&#8230; That said she's also a heavy price tag $140,000&#8230;. My 2nd 2008 TT California driven, well kept, mint condition, black on black leather, manual, prestige edition (which means, power everything plus Lamborghini magnetic suspension) was purchased for $9,000, I put about $40,000 into it (keep in mind the MSRP for an '08 TT Prestige was $45k)&#8230; It was, once finished a 1200hp street legal, UA "United Motorsports Haldex" tuned car.

Smog here in California is OBDII only, on most vehicles with that port, no rollers or sniffer on all wheel drive vehicles&#8230; After the UA tune, that was a pass.

Where'd my car go? Well once I was finished building it up internally to withstand 1200hp all I knew about was the 700hp Borg Warner EFR 8474, drove it a few months until after some research found and swapping that out for a Precision 8385 Turbocharger (1200hp), vented my 1/4 panels and installed a carbon fiber "locking" bonnet I got T-boned.

Light said yield on green, and the Mercedes GLS in front of me started a left, stopped, like "I can't make it", I was like, okay, steady on, then suddenly the driver gunned it, "I can make it" I was like WTF are doing! And by the time I hit the brakes, BAM! The driver had a witness that said my light had turned red before entering the intersection. That witness spontaneously appeared after the police report was filled. He supposedly saw that the light had turned red, (my light was green). In the Insurance companies interview they closed in her favor. No compensation was awarded me&#8230; I lost the car and everything that was in it&#8230;

Brian Crower 12mm+ camshafts, Supertech valve springs, Schimmel Performance Billet cam gears, Schimmel Performance mechanical tensioner, JE forged pistons with 23mm Pins, Pauter forged aluminum rods with micro polished 2.8L crankshaft, King racing rods and main bearings. ARP 625+ head studs, MLS head gasket with allowance for a custom O-ring, Billet Main cap Girdle ARP 625+ main studs, Precision 8385 Turbocharger (1200hp), 3 Walbro pumps, twelve 1700-cc injectors (two for each cylinder), Inconel Turbo Studs with Rolled Threads, CNC Machined Billet Aluminum Turbo Inlet Adapter, HPA Proprietary Cast Exhaust Manifold with External 02 Sensor Bungs, Stainless Steel Downpipes with Interlock Flex Joint, Stainless Steel Manifold Heatshield, Turbo Blanket and Additional Heatshields, Compression Reduction kit, Custom Liquid Cooled Short Runner Intake Manifold by Speed Density Motorsport, and Aftercooler Package for AWIC. Sachs RCS200 racing clutch, Extended gear ratio 60T ring - 20T FD1 - 16T FD2, Borla 88mm Exhaust with high flow cats, Carbon fiber locking Bonnet, Carbon fiber quarter panel inserts vented to the Turbo intake, Carbon fiber rear wing, TTRS headlamps, HPA big brakes front and rear&#8230; And HRE Flowform FF15 wheels in anthracite. Drove it about 3 weeks.

Basically I had a car that would eat just about anything street or track, for about $40k USD, with a backseat and a boot&#8230; Top speed of 263mph, clocked on NV-225 S, a 95.3 mile truck route. (Why would waist $140,000 on an R8 200mph top speed). When the R8 costs 3.5 times more and I got her number?

I ended up with this car, because it's a 2008 Black on Black Prestige edition (although I hate automatics). Found it in Chicago, there were no available manual transmission TT's (year, color, amenities) at the time. It's all I could find.

Timing Chain???? Hey, never had to do it, 1st 2nd TT, never had the problem, and according to Audi, it's a non-serviceable part, lasting the life of your vehicle&#8230; Sachs had recalls, but the originating MKII year '08 is not included. According to Audi, if you drove your '08 3.2 VR6 R32 like you stole it on a daily basis, consistently redlining the engine in RPM's (Never did that, I upshift at 3000, down at 1000, I'm in 6th cruising, down shift to 4th or 5th to overtake, but never redline), you may need a timing service&#8230; If a DSRG Triptronic Automatic, the ECU is delimited to prevent redline, if you need this service, it's your fault. You either prolonged an oil change or redlined on multiple occasions.

That's Audi's stance on the subject. If you don't know how to drive it, care for it, you shouldn't have it&#8230;

Not my case at all.


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## SwissJetPilot (Apr 27, 2014)

@ *JB2008TT3.2* - My point on the Audi R8 was before I'd spend €16K on a turbo kit to pump up an old TT, I'd use that money towards good used R8 which comes with 420 PS right out of the box.  The used market (at least here in Swissyland) has quite a few R8's below the 50K price range, many with less than 100k-km on the clock, meaning these are expensive toys which have spent more time in the garage than on the highway.


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## JB2008TT3.2 (May 2, 2021)

Swiss, that was you, lol&#8230; You have a great point&#8230; And honestly I don't think I'm going to build up a new TT. I may consider a used R8, like I said "sexy beasts" they are. Still my 1200hp TT was only $40k all together, from initial purchase to build up and engine swap&#8230; Kinda difficult to commensurate 1/4 to 2x the price $75-100k (here across the pond) for a vehicle that while incredibly attractive is less a performer than I've built myself.

And what's old, lol&#8230; I began building cars with my mother, an original member of the International Brotherhood of Street Racers circa 1968, with her gold '65 fastback Mustang, she taught me everything I know about cars (never had a Pops). I didn't come along until '74, but by the time I was 20 we had built up all kinds of So-Cal 60's 70's muscle cars. Her Mustang a bored out 389 to 402, with all the Cobra and Boss mods available at the time, making 435hp her NOS tank added 250hp, that's 685hp with a top speed of 216mph&#8230; Carol Shelby was something, Mom was something else.

We built up several finds, '71 Jenson Interceptor, '70 Barracuda, '70 Camero SS, '70 Super Bird, '68 Road Runner, '67 Eleanor Mustang, '66 GTO (my second car to drive), '65 Ford Daytona, '60 Porsche 365, and my first driver a '60 VW Beetle, lowered with 17's and a +250hp engine, arguably the funnest car I've ever had. My 2nd TT reminded of that&#8230; Neck breaking acceleration, danced like a ballerina in the twistys&#8230; Smiles all around.

I like to build, but I love to drive. Once we finished a car it was direct to Whittier hills, then Laguna canyons, always a performance test, to see what we could improve on&#8230; Sometimes that meant an entire new aluminum rolling chassis and improved suspension (Porsche, Corvette), but we always made something beautiful&#8230;

Selling me on an R8, with this (related history), you'll have to admit, it's gonna be a hard sell&#8230;

But thank you for the info Swiss&#8230; For always being there, from my first Newb post to this one&#8230;. Your TT knowledge, at least to me, is unparalleled&#8230; You're comments are always appreciated.


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## SwissJetPilot (Apr 27, 2014)

Sounds like you have a solid background in auto mechanics, so this shouldn't be too much of a challenge for you. 

The R8 has always been one of my favorite super cars, but here in Europe it has a bit of a stigma attached to it. For the St. Moritz crowd with their Porsches, Ferraris and Lambo's, it fits right in. But for the rest of us, meh, not so much. IHMO the TT is really the perfect touring car if set up right. The 3.2 has plenty of power for the autobahn, AMR comes in handy for Alpine roads and with 17" wheels, the taller tires can take on some of the rougher cobble and gravel roads when heading into some of the lesser traveled European villages. I'm not saying you have to have all these features to travel Europe, but they've certainly contributed to a great driving experience.

Even the Roadster has plenty of space in the trunk for two carry on suitcases, a decent sized duffel bag, and all my wife's shoes. ;-)


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## JB2008TT3.2 (May 2, 2021)

Not solely a SoCal local here&#8230; Grandmother, Mother, born and raised in Bonneville France. Spent many Summers (2 week birthday trips on summer break) and nearly every winter (Winter break) in Europe touring. St Moritz was a 5 hour drive if I remember correctly, both the northern route and southern are gorgeous! Been about 10 years since I've been back. I really miss the drives.


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## SwissJetPilot (Apr 27, 2014)

Then you know these roads too, excellent! [smiley=thumbsup.gif] Once the pandemic gets sorted, you'll need to plan another trip.


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## JB2008TT3.2 (May 2, 2021)

There's nothing I'd love more&#8230; With the exception of turning back time and getting my 1200hp TT on those roads&#8230; We'd have blast, my Fiancé's Vuitton luggage and Louboutin's in the boot&#8230; In other circumstances you and I, our significant others, we'd be great friends, touring together&#8230;

As always, thanks for sharing Swiss.


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## JB2008TT3.2 (May 2, 2021)

Time, is not however something we can wield in our existence, only our visual landscape in recall and remembrance&#8230; Speaking of, by the time I had purchased my 3rd TT, put it on a transport truck and delivered&#8230; I begged my insurance company to let me swap the RNSE's, they obliged&#8230; This was all that was left when I arrived. Everything was gone&#8230;

But I did get to swap my NAV units, lol.


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## FNChaos (Nov 30, 2016)

"I can fix it"


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## SwissJetPilot (Apr 27, 2014)

...any landing you can walk away from...


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## SwissJetPilot (Apr 27, 2014)

@ *JB2008TT3.2* - PM sent, please let me know if you received it.


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## JB2008TT3.2 (May 2, 2021)

Got it Swiss, 208/209 are out 4 - 5kw respectively, right now, got a quote for $3k at AutoHaus, a mile down the road on Broadway, VW Specialists since 1986 and the lowest quote yet. Still parting up, waiting for that list from Charles.


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## JB2008TT3.2 (May 2, 2021)

Hey Chaos, you made me laugh so hard. That was a great flashback!

I like this one>>>. 




Too bad my cars entire front end was stripped bare, I would have given you a shot, lol.


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## SwissJetPilot (Apr 27, 2014)

@ *JB2008TT3.2* - It would be interesting to know what AutoHaus has to say about those 208/209 values and the fault codes...


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## JB2008TT3.2 (May 2, 2021)

AutoHaus "Out 5kw*, yeah it's time to come in, anything over 10k* and you've jumped a tooth. What we're guessing is that either your chain has stretched (not an '08 problem) or chain tensioner has become obsolete H verses K, K being the upgrade&#8230; The H version tends to wear, and with it your guides. It's really a domino effect. In an '08 once the tensioner goes your guides begin to go (just polyurethane after all), that's the first stage of wear, you may not get a check engine lamp for a while, 3kw* out, is the it's call designation to the ECU&#8230; This means, "we've found a problem, but you've 8kw* before your valves begin hitting pistons, this sounds like marbles knocking in your engine as the teeth have shallowed and the chain has began skipping a tooth now and then, basically your outer sprocket on the balance shaft for the upper timing chains teeth are at a loss, at 10kw* you'll have a catastrophic failure, either the chain will out, which is most like likely or you'll throw a rod and be looking at timing plus engine rebuild. You have some time but not much, you need to come in ASAP"!


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## SwissJetPilot (Apr 27, 2014)

Not knowing how long it will take Charles to get that list together, you may just want to go with AutoHaus recommendation so you can get this service going sooner than later. Basically it's every part associated with the upper and lower timing chain assembly.

Don't forget to get the PCV diaphragm replaced while they have the valve cover off. Or have it removed completely from the COS, block off the vent hole and replace the TT vent tube with a Toureg PCV tube.

And as suggested, you may want them to replace the accessory belt, tensioner, idler pulley's and water pump/thermostat since it's all easy access with the engine out.

If possible, it would be great to get some pictures of the work, or at least the parts they replace to get a sense of how much wear is present that lead up to this joy-fest! Personally, I always ask for my parts back just to see what was going on.


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## JB2008TT3.2 (May 2, 2021)

You forgot Swiss, all my sensors, coil packs, valve cover were replaced with new OEM parts. Now I've never done a timing chain replacement on the VR6 R32, does the valve cover really need to come off again when the Chain cover (excuse me we drive left in the US) is located on the drivers side&#8230; Maybe after another 150k miles swapping out the diaphragm with a mod could be necessary, but seems a bit much now that it's new. My concern is "what's necessary" as I'm still paying on $26k in parts from my last TT, kinda financially strapped right now. Suggestions are welcomed. But, let's keep that in mind.

Since the mod is reliable and exits, we're can that tutorial be found.


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## JB2008TT3.2 (May 2, 2021)

For example, I was thinking a full engine rebuild kit, ie. DNJ's Master Engine Rebuild Kit (EK816CM), but it's overkill, as there's nothing wrong with my pistons rings or gaskets, "internals". But externally, yeah, my bushings are shit all around, so I purchased 03mortorsports mounts Motor/Trans, and SuperPro's full track polyurethane suspension bushings, because all my rubber was compromised by Chi town cold&#8230; There's a lot of rust.


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## SwissJetPilot (Apr 27, 2014)

@ *JB2008TT3.2* - Going from a timing chain replacement to a rebuilt engine is a big leap. Much will depend on the condition of your engine; pistons, bearings, cylinder walls, valve seats, etc. If the compression is good and everything else is in good shape, then it may not be necessary at all. But if you just want to be on the safe side with as many miles as you have, then it's entirely an economic decision IMHO.

If you have a safe and secure place to work then pulling the engine and doing it all yourself would make for a good summer project. Go slow, walk away when you get frustrated and just take your time. There's certainly enough Youtube videos and Forum posts on all aspects off getting the engine out, rebuilding it and then putting it all back together along with all the Workshop Manuals for reference.

When it comes to specialty tools and equipment you can buy a good used engine hoist off Craigslist and when you're done with it, sell it. Just be smart about your finances and just do what you need to before you dig yourself another $26k TT money pit. Just sayin' 

To your question on the valve cover, I'm not sure how you would get to the timing chain with it in place. :?


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## JB2008TT3.2 (May 2, 2021)

Right, it's saddled under the valve cover, my bad, never saw it&#8230; I've only designed the upgrades on one of these VR6 R32's, parted up from the block. Myself, Mom & Pops (retired), his Cousin (racing machinist, also retired) who slicked it up&#8230; By the time I became involved, it was upper/lower deck, Turbo, Exhaust, Transmission + Plumbing. Silicon ducting, manifolds, cat backs and peripheral cosmetic details. 2nd cousin since passed of COVID, it was a hard loss for pops. Their move, hard loss for me&#8230; But it looks like I've found a good neighborhood shop Long Beach AutoHaus, two guys been there since '86, they've quoted me $2,500 for the timing job (as I'm providing parts). While the engines out, I'm going to have them refresh suspension.

SuperPro KIT5238K Front and Rear Full Bushing Kit.

Still shopping for engine out parts&#8230;

Thanks for pointing that out Swiss. P.S. where's that PCV valve mod?


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## SwissJetPilot (Apr 27, 2014)

While it's out, be sure to get the water pump and accessory belt, tensioner and pulley's replaced. No sense paying for that labor twice.

Also, take a very close look at the oil cooler mounted above the oil filter housing. They have a bad habit of corroding and leaking resulting in coolant in the oil. So-Cal may not have winter salt on the roads, but being it's a coastal environment, double check to be sure.

The PCV mod is linked below.

*3.2 VR-6 (BUB) PCV Diaphragm Replacement Alternative*
https://www.ttforum.co.uk/forum/viewtop ... &t=1965923

This way the OEM diaphragm is completely out of the loop. Then just replace the existing TT PCV vent tube with a Toureg PCV valve shown below and you're good to go. Several people (including myself) have already done this mod without any issues.


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## SwissJetPilot (Apr 27, 2014)

Here's the details of the Valve Cover, the location of the COS (Cyclone Oil Separator) and the PCV diaphragm which is inside the COS. Audi's decision to put the PCV diaphragm inside this is one of the dumbest design ideas in history!


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## JB2008TT3.2 (May 2, 2021)

Thanks Swiss, on spot as always! Hate to ask, but is there a pulley Kit available somewhere, with all of them together&#8230;?

Just doing my due diligence and trying avoid paying for the uptake in parts and delivery. Any help as always is appreciated.


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## SwissJetPilot (Apr 27, 2014)

*ECS Tuning* offers this kit -









*FNChaos* listed a number of US suppliers back on page 5 of this post you may want to look into. *ESC Tuning* has a good selection of parts but they tend to be rather expensive, so shop around.

*How to: VR6 3.2 Accessory Belt, Tensioner & Pulley Repair*
https://www.ttforum.co.uk/forum/viewtop ... &t=1983693

As to the water pump itself, there have been some debates between metal and plastic impellers. Personally I would go with plastic based on the comment below -

*Water Pump*
https://www.ttforum.co.uk/forum/viewtop ... 2&t=205529

_"The reason VW/Audi designed the impeller from plastic was that if the water pump bearing developed play, it wouldn't wreck the engine block which a metal impeller is quite capable of doing. Food for thought...."_


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## FNChaos (Nov 30, 2016)

SwissJetPilot said:


> *ECS Tuning* offers this kit -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you look at the parts kit breakdown on the ECS website (at the bottom of the page) you can click on each part individually. From there you'll note that ECS is kind enough to list the manufacturer's part number for that part.

With this information you can then search for those parts on other sites that may not have a 'prepackaged' kit. Sites like RockAuto or fcpeuro will list several vendors for a given part, allowing you to choose OE, OEM, aftermarket depending on availability, price & criticality of said part.

For example: ECS Water Pump Replacement Kit p/n 2718053 shows they use an Accessory Belt Tensioner manufactured by iko. It also shows Audi's p/n for the tensioner is 022145299L .
If I search for this part number on RockAuto I see that INA, URO, Gates & Continental all make this part. (Gates being the OE manufacturer in this case)

On a critical part I may want to use OEM only (which in the above example RockAuto doesn't list) but I can still find the OEM part using the p/n I got from ECS to source it from a site like GetAudiParts.com

...or say If I decided to go with an OE part to save some money, I could use the Gates part number 38450 (obtained from my search on RockAuto) to see if anyone else sells a Gates tensioner for a better price.


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## JB2008TT3.2 (May 2, 2021)

Thanks Swiss/Chaos, Totals in parts if anyone had the question.

Parts list:

(Timing Parts)
Timing Chain Kit
Intermediate Timing Sprocket
Drive Belt
Lower Tensioner Upgrade
$250

(Pulleys & Pumps)
Harmonic Balancer
Water Pump Pulley
Idler Pulley 
Belt Tensioner 
Accessory Belt
Water Pump 
Oil Pump 
$450

(Engine/Trans Mounts)
Full Kit 034 MotorSports
$330

That I believe are the "Since it's out" Basics. $1,030 USD.
(If I missed something, I'm open to suggestions).

I'm also going for a full bushings overhaul in suspension.

(Full Front/Rear Suspension Bushings)
SuperPro KIT5238K 
$525
SuperPro ALOY4343K
$240


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## FNChaos (Nov 30, 2016)

JB2008TT3.2 said:


> I'm also going for a full bushings overhaul in suspension.
> 
> (Full Front/Rear Suspension)
> SuperPro KIT5238K
> $525


If you are going full-on SuperPro, you might consider adding SuperPro p/n ALOY4343K to your list.

SuperPro Antilift Control Arm Lower Rear-Bracket Mount 
https://www.superproeurope.com/part.number.cfm?partnumber=ALOY4343K
Install instructions

Offset bushings allow for a small increase in caster to reduce understeer (similar to Whiteline Antilift (Walk) kit).

Also, plan on replacing any / all bolts you remove with new.


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## TT'sRevenge (Feb 28, 2021)

I hate to say it but the costs look like they are becoming close to or more than the car is worth no?

There was the initial $2500, now the $2500 the next shop wants for the timing job, plus what looks like around $1000 in parts...

At $6000 now...just to get the car running properly, before any mods and other stuff :| What year is the car, how many miles, and what did you pay for it initially (and when did you buy it)?

Anyway hopefully this time it all goes well it gets all fixed up and you get some years of enjoyment out of it before needing to spend more.


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## JB2008TT3.2 (May 2, 2021)

Nice catch Chaos&#8230;. TT'sRev?

The car is an '08, with 150k ($10k, purchased 11 months ago).

The first $2500 was a rip&#8230; Those guys wanted $7000 to do my timing lol. The new shop I found said "don't go back there, we would have taken care of you $650-$700 at most".


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## JB2008TT3.2 (May 2, 2021)

So, finally found a good Stateside recommendation, a Mobil mechanic servicing L.A. county. $1300 timing, transmission service and all 4 brakes. Young mechanic VW trained in Portugal at Lisbon's Autoeuropa&#8230; Did a bang up job&#8230; No more rough Idle, but even after clearing P0016/P0017 codes they came back! I'm like WTF! I've shotguns everything at this accept crank sensors.


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## MT-V6 (Jan 11, 2015)

Does a basic settings procedure need to be carried out after the chain replacement? Just a thought, I haven't looked into it


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## SwissJetPilot (Apr 27, 2014)

Looking at the difference between your engine and others like it, someone hasn't been doing oil changes frequently enough IMHO. Just look at the sludge build up on the Cams and Cam Adjusters. 

I wouldn't be surprised if there's sludge built up inside the Cam Adjusters and/or oil channels for the Cam Adjuster Valves. I'd be a bit concerned that the filter screen is not blocked.

If you already have it back together, you may want to consider a flush as described by the German guys posted previously.


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## JB2008TT3.2 (May 2, 2021)

Personally I was hoping my Lisbon VW trained mechanic was doing his due diligence, cleaning adjusters, channels, filter&#8230;

Me, I wanna stay close to home (Long Beach), my rental a compact, put me back $600 for 5 days&#8230; I can't afford that! I need someone who can fix this in 48hrs, make the error codes go away (not come back) for about $1k&#8230;

Shotgunning parts at this has put be me back $1.5k in parts, $1.3k in labour&#8230; There's no way I'm paying anyone more that $1k to find and fix my fault.

New Coils, new Camshaft sensors, G40-G163&#8230; New RPM sensor, G28&#8230; New chains, guides and adjusters. The only thing I can think of is a OIL FLUSH, or the screen has been gummed up or completely lost.

Lisbon's telling me, "Go ahead, get a good flush, if that doesn't work, I'll brake it back down and replace the filter screen for $600, sounds to me it's oil pressure on the top end, let me know what you find out."


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## SwissJetPilot (Apr 27, 2014)

Recommended from the Audi A3 Forum - *Oil Flush*

Technical Source - http://www.a3quattro.de/index.php?page= ... adID=14038
Materials Source - https://www.a3q-oelshop.de/epages/63003 ... 2/Additive

*Lambda Oil Primer*









It is used to clean the oil circuit as part of the oil change service.
It is added to the engine oil.

Engines up to 5 liter oil volume: 250 ml can
Engines over 5 liter oil volume: 500 ml can
For VW / Audi units with 1.8 or 2 liter cubic capacity, you should also use the 500 ml can.

It is important to ensure that everything is done quickly one after the other.

Check the oil level before filling.
Before you fill in the Oil Primer, you have to drain or suck off 500 ml of used oil.
When using the 250 ml can instead of the 500 ml can, accordingly only 250 ml.

Let the engine run for approx. 3-5 minutes in order to get a good mixture.

Then drive the engine for approx. 30 to a maximum of 50 km.
The engine must be warmed up. After that, you should avoid driving at constant speed or constant speed. Cleaning is not as effective here. In order to clean all parts well, changing load conditions should be brought about.

Frequent acceleration, sometimes higher speeds, motorway. Many parts in the engine such as camshaft adjusters, chain tensioners, oil valves live from the movement. Only when properly moved can they be cleaned efficiently. With the camshaft adjusters, it is important that they make the most of all adjustment paths.

Drain the engine oil IMMEDIATELY after the journey! It shouldn't cool down. A draining of the Engine oil at a later point in time must not be done. Let it drip off well (approx. 10-15 minutes)

Then replace the oil filter and pour in fresh oil.
Drive approx. 5-10 km to mix the few leftovers well with the fresh oil.

*Lambda Oil Primer EXTRA*









The Oil Primer EXTRA is used to clean dirt during operation that could not be removed by the normal Oil Primer.
It can often happen that the cleaning trip of up to 50 km is too short and not sufficient to remove all stubborn dirt.
The Oil Primer EXTRA gently dissolves the dirt that has already been loosened by the Oil Primer and feeds it to the oil filter. It is not a cleaner in the conventional sense, but has lubricating components.

Add 250 ml Oil Primer EXTRA to the oil circuit. Start the engine and let it run for approx. 3 minutes.
Then IMMEDIATELY drive AT LEAST 10 km to mix! It is essential to adhere to this.

The Oil Primer EXTRA may only be added to fresh oil. NOT in oil that has been in the engine for a long time!

Duration: It is recommended not to drive more than 5000-7500km with it.

Afterwards, when the kilometers are reached, you should flush the oil with the Lambda Oil Primer in order to flush all residues of the Oil Primer EXTRA and dissolved substances from the engine. Then use fresh oil with a new filter.

The oil level must be set so that the 250 ml oil primer EXTRA has reached the fill quantity required by the manufacturer.

*Product MSDS Sheets - *

View attachment Lambda Oil Primer MSDS Revision 2.pdf

View attachment Lambda Oil Extra MSDS Revision 2.pdf


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## JB2008TT3.2 (May 2, 2021)

Still looking for a local shop… It’s so difficult even with Yelp… You get a shop with a 5 star rating, then you look at reviews and notice something… All the 5 ratings are normal upkeep, as soon as diagnosing a problem comes up, it’s 1 stars, with a several paragraph complaint lol.

I was suggested a shop in Laguna, while I love that drive, the rental for a week is gonna kill me. It’s over $600 for a compact (lowest car)… I thought I found a contender, AutoHaus just up the road… But the owner mostly does Porsche, BMW these days.

“What you got was an 80k throw away car, the timing chain could barely roll a Schwin bike. I won’t bid less than 40hrs on that job, the labor guides say $1500, there’s just no money in it for me, and I’m busy, 3 B’mer’s, 2 Porche’s and this 981.” his words…

I’m taking that with a grain of salt. Still, I need someone close with good experience timing. Any suggestions. A living trained VW factory mechanic did my timing, still have codes. We going to flush in a couple weeks and see what happens.


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