# 300HP without FMIC



## IanW (Jan 7, 2019)

Anybody know if you can get to 300HP without a FMIC on a 225 BAM?

ECUxPlot is saying I'm at 290HP, tried a few map adjustments but seemed to have stalled at 290HP.

Existing Mods;

- Complete 3" exhaust
- Decat
- F23 turbo
- Stainless exhaust manifold
- Musroom air filter
- Badger5 TIP

The head has been refurbished, new water pump timing belt etc, compression is good on all cylinders.
I have 440cc injectors, up-rated fuel pump & new fuel filter but haven't installed these yet as the fuelling is holding up.
Running Shell V-Power (99)

Thanks


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

I don't know for a fact but i would say yes it is possible with the use of wmi to control the intake air temp, but for what it cost to fit a wmi kit you may as well fit a fmic or go belt N braces and fit both.


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

as previously suggested bhp is estimated at maf_gs / 0.8 check the ecu_plot setup. maybe try and get the 200g/s (250bhp) about right in ECU PLOT - I have found that high mafg/s if timing is being pulled right back (like mine) the bhp is dropped off.

my ECUplot config says 274bhp and riding the dangerous curve of torque 280lb_ft with stock rods - that's the estimated recognised max limit of the injectors although you dont have effInjectorOntime in your csv

_6800rpm has a maximum injector on time of 
60/6800*1000*2 = 17.64ms - so if your injectors are on for 17ms that is 96% IDC_


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## IanW (Jan 7, 2019)

What settings are you using for the vehicle profile as I'm unsure what ones to use?

I did read on another forum that the divide by 0.8 formula starts to break down at high revs but it didn't say how (higher\lower??).

The IDC is topping out at 90% according to ECUxPLot and I did have the AFR as low as 11:1 and the actual was holding out against the desired, this pushed the IDC over 95% though.

















Some knock is pulling the timing a little any way, (tried reducing the AFR but it made the knock come on lower down the rev range?).

I'm running out of levers to pull, planning on making a single test run with no air filter to see what happens and tweaking the mapping some more, at the moment I'm asking it to get to loads that it's never going to get to, so I think the restriction is mechanical rather than map.

Think I'm probably risking it with the engine loads in the map at the moment but mechanically it's not getting there or likely to, once the mechanicals have topped out I'll trim back the map loads to keep it tidy.

The original target was to get to 300lb\ft and 300HP (on the rod bending limit so I've been told), according to the ECUxPlot I'm nearly there (may be). Going to see how close I can get to the target without a FMIC and then put it on the dream crusher dyno at Surrey Rolling Road and see what happens. Then may be a FMIC.

Any suggestions?


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

it's the intake air temperatures you need to take into consideration the idea is to try and keep under 30 degrees.


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## IanW (Jan 7, 2019)

The only ways I can see to reduce the AIT's are;

- Move to Iceland (not going to happen)  
- Wait until winter (can wait until later in the year before putting it on the dyno)
- Water\meth injection (seems like cheating to me)
- FMIC (might add one depending on results of Dyno)

Do you know of any anecdotal evidence of how much a FMIC cools the AIT's and what HP gain a 1C reduction can give?


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

it's about air density and pre-ignition - waiting till winter works 
I added an intake gasket too, it's more about engine protection more than HP

you are surely at a safe upper limit now, there's little or no knock on your last map. eventually you will push over the limits and get towed home. i'm not sure the 440 injectors will add much "green giants" and Chinese copies are renowned for being a bad fit for these engines. it's very addictive tweaking and logging.


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## temperal (Dec 2, 2015)

yes the phenolic spacer on the manifold really works noticed it on mine also dont write off upgraded smics metal headers as these can be effective but you must make sure the ducting is retained and air tight as this makes 10-15c difference apparantly


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## benckj (May 23, 2018)

WI isn't cheating and has many more benifits than most realise. Add some methanol to the mix and it will supplement the fuel requirements when you need it most. Just make sure a fail safe system is installed otherwise; you will push the envelope to gain more HP and should it fail the engine will be toast.


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## IanW (Jan 7, 2019)

StuartDB said:


> it's very addictive tweaking and logging.


Yep it's addictive, better than doing drink, drugs or gambling though.

I'll pull my last couple of no cost leavers and see how far I can get, then off to Surrey Rolling Road (be September some time now).

If I'm close to the target 300lb\ft & 300hp, I'll throw a FMIC and a phenolic spacer at it.

Note on the knocking, it's only knocking on number 1, and I did take the knock sensor off on this side and didn't torque it down to spec, so it may a ghost knock. Going to take it off clean it up and torque it down correctly and see what happens.


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## Wak (May 6, 2002)

IanW said:


> Anybody know if you can get to 300HP without a FMIC on a 225 BAM?
> 
> ECUxPlot is saying I'm at 290HP, tried a few map adjustments but seemed to have stalled at 290HP.
> s


Unless I am missing something in the log, this looks like 260bhp and a boost profile looks like a 260 bhp setup.

What is this turbo rated for?


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## IanW (Jan 7, 2019)

I'm going by the ECUxPlot as per below, how accurate it is I don't know but I have nothing else to gauge against until it goes on a dyno.









The turbo is an Ebay F23, Billet 6+6 Turbocharger F23 For Audi A3 S3 TT1.8 / Seat Leon 1.8 Cupra R BAM BFV, doesn't give a rating.

Couple of quick questions whilst I have your attention;

- AFR, what's a good starting point (currently running just under 13:1)?
- Timing, I did have a ghost knock on cylinder 1 only, I refitted the knock sensor on the driver's side and it's now gone. Is there much gain to be had by adjusting the timing and if so wat would be a good starting point?

I'm thinking my only no cost leavers left to pull are fuelling and timing not sure if these will make a tremendous amount of difference to the current performance.

Also I did a single run without an air filter just to see what happend, it didn't make any difference at all.

Last thing to add to the mix that's occurred to me is that the road I use to test has a significant incline for the first 150m or so and then levels out rapidly, it never quite gets to be flat though.

Any comments appreciated


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## A_Banging_Donk (Apr 22, 2017)

Those ECUxPlot presets are utterly useless.. please forget about them.

Looks like a stock wastegate actuator to me? what's it rated for? Got a link to the eBay listing for the F23 you bought?


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## IanW (Jan 7, 2019)

The actual Ebay listing has finished but this item number is the same thing 292939619050.
I did note when I installed it that the turbine was different to the one I removed.
What ECUxPlot settings do people use?

Think I'm pretty much at the end of the line for this hardware as it stands.


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## A_Banging_Donk (Apr 22, 2017)

Have it plot things which are actually useful instead of back of the envelope guesstimates.










When you say F23, I think most will think of this. Looking at the listing, I'm guessing that it's a cheap Chinese housing with a billet wheel - if you want any chance of getting more out of it, you'll need to fit a stiffer actuator and do some porting.

Yes, you're at the limit of your hardware.

Edit: Before buying/fitting parts, you should check the actuator you have using something like this. A stiffer actuator will require some more 'involved' mapping.. You can look at what Stuart's dealing with as a taster. The stakes are also higher.. the stock actuator is pretty weak and you can get away with murder - a stiffer one changes the game.


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

Remembering of course... stock rods, injectors and fuel pump. But even with an updated actuator you're only looking at 220-225g/s (well that was the limit I managed with the confidence of forged rods) plus the world of pain getting the PID right. 
And to change the actuator you have to remove the coolant feed in order to remove the top bolt (unless it's been shortened)

I would be tempted to give the actuator an extra turn of pre-load leaving it in situ.

Has anyone ever changed the wgdc to 99% max instead of 94? (TVLDMX) and updated KFLDRL ?

I struggle to get over 20% wgdc at present without blowing a hose. Stupid TURBOSMART-IWG75


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## IanW (Jan 7, 2019)

The full log is at the start of the thread.
I would have reposted here it but I'm on my phone.


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## IanW (Jan 7, 2019)

Not going to change the actuator, sounds like a lot of swearing and scraped knukles.

I was thinking about the 95% WGDC, might try changing it to 96 - 97 and see what happens.


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## A_Banging_Donk (Apr 22, 2017)

I've seen your log Ian, it's remarkably similar to one of mine which is why I'm so convinced you have a stock actuator









Yeah, I know Stuart, a lot of the other pieces are missing... I've tried TVLDMX at 98%, it made hardly any difference. Actuator spring is far too weak, nothing more to gain. Stock is actually more like 94% - go ahead and try increasing it, nothing to lose really.

Also worth tightening up the preload little by little to see how it goes - I'm sure there's much to be had


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

IanW said:


> The full log is at the start of the thread.
> I would have reposted here it but I'm on my phone.


your log is ~208g/s = eg 208/0.8 = 260bhp

this is a log I got from my cheap Chinese turbo with a 10psi actuator and a stock hotside whilst waiting for a repair from turbo-rebuilds - BUT with forged rods, FMIC, 550c injectors, dw65v fuel pump - _it's a lot of effort to get that extra 10g/s_

that was maxed out at 60% wastegate - you can see the ignition retard knock of approx. -3 degrees

I have to say... I am not much far on from this with a £1K turbo fitted  apart from the new turbo doesn't run out of air - there's too much of it  <-- _just a beginner remember_










View attachment STOCK_33_TWEAKED_1.csv


I recall Prawn @ ASN increased the wastegate pre-load "to keep it shut under boost and back-pressure" in a previous hybrid turbo he used, I need to loosen mine as it is too tight to control (for me anyway). it can be done with an 11mm spanner but you need to look after your engine internals


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## IanW (Jan 7, 2019)

Cheers,

I think it will be marginal gains from here on in, if any.
I'll have a tinker with the suggested items and see what happens.


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

As the turbo and actuator are new it shouldn't be difficult to undo the inner bolt with an open spanner then give the outer half a turn, then tighten it back up.

You have to work blind though from above, after removing the charge pipe - not sure if your after market manifold may get in the way, as they are a bit taller.


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## IanW (Jan 7, 2019)

Made a few tweaks, and a little progress;

- Tightened the wastegate actuator by a turn and a half. This gave a slight gain 3-4 g\s. *At what point would tightening it further become counterproductive?*
- Timing added 2 degrees at high load and high revs. No knock before added the 2 dgrees, now knocking which is being pulled back but there is a gain 3-4 g\s so going to leave it.
- LAMBDA slight changes, 9.25:1 lower revs\high load, 9.0:1 at higher revs\high load to try and tame the knock (didn't really work).

Might up the rev limit to 7K

Log attached.


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

How does it compare if you overlay the pre adjust and post adjust, as the end result is essentially the same. I wonder if the torque onset has changed. To be fair you have a healthy within capability log, but people quickly get bored if not changing anything.


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## IanW (Jan 7, 2019)

Yep,

I do like a tinker.

Don't think any amount of tinkering is going to make any significant gains from here though.

Time to enjoy it and get it on a track.

I'll still be tinkering with it as it's somewhere to hide from the Mrs.


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## IanW (Jan 7, 2019)

Tightened the WG preload by about 8mm (difficult to see exactly) and made a significant change to the g\s "220-ish" (see attached logs).

The problem I'm now having is that the revs are being pulled by the EGT protection, EGT Sensor hitting 900 and the Condition EGT for part protection hitting the 819 limit.

- What's the difference between ECT Sensor and Condition EGT for part protection plots, as I would have thought that the part protection would kick in using the EGT sensor readings?

- What is the consensus of a safe EGT?
- Is it worth trying to use fuel to cool the EGT?

Thanks


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## A_Banging_Donk (Apr 22, 2017)

You really need to fix the overshoot. You're at a point now where the hardware is starting to work and your balls to the wall tune is going to land you in trouble.


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

You need to give it more fuel in any case.

That's a shed load of preload it's supposed to be 2mm (2 turns) I would try and get a new actuator, a cm of preload won't allow the waste gate to fully open, you might end up bending the arm if you're not careful, or getting boost creeping, where thre ECU assumes its got rid of the pressure.

BTS maps enrich to 11 AFR/ 0.75 lamfa. What you might see is black smoke after a run or restarting the car, from unburnt fuel, this is what I was finding.


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## IanW (Jan 7, 2019)

Just did a wastegate pressure only run, looks like what I've done is effectively welded up the wastegate with that much preload. At least now I know that the current hardware can get to around the 280HP mark.

There was no noticeable boost creep before or after disconnecting the N75 valve.

As I see it now I have three things to sort out;

1. I have a problem at about 6600rpm the revs throw a wobbly (feels a bit like rev limiter kicking but softer), I'm thinking it could be the spark being "Blown out", but I'm not seeing any misfires, would "spark blowout" register a misfire? "A Banging Donk" has suggested that it may be ARMD Intervention, hope so as it should be an easy fix (just disable it in the KFDMDARO map apparently)?
The plugs are gapped to 0.7mm, rpm limit set 7200rpm.
_No need to explain "spark blowout" I've read the different explanations (ones that say the arc doesn't even get started and the ones that say the arc gets "blown out"), hence the "quotation marks")_

2. Get the Wastegate preload right, after some reading "10PSI" could be the way to go?

3. Tame the torque at 4Krpm down a little, might have to use a MBC with the N75 for this as the readings are off the scale and I don't think changing any PID\map is going to work as the ECU has no idea what the redings are (unless using the 5120 hack, which is a can of worms I don't want to open yet). I have an adjustable diverter valve which I haven't fitted yet could try using this?


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

when you say revs throwing a wobbler what do you mean? - a stock fuel pump is maybe struggling


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## Delta4 (Jun 19, 2015)

A adjustable DV will not do anything positive and as already mention it's most probably the stock ( old ) fuel pump that's running out of puff.


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## IanW (Jan 7, 2019)

I think it is the ARMD Intervention as the timing is all over the place when the rev wobbly is thrown and I would expect the fueling to tail off as it couldn't keep up not stop abruptly, saying that the fuel dutycycle is at 94% when it throws it's rev wobbly so not much more if any to give. I'll disable the ARMD Intervention in the KFDMDARO map first and see what happens.

I might try and use the adjustable DV to try and tame the torque at 4Krpm, not to address the rev wobbly.


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

What is rl_w I was told on nefarious prolonged time outside of the map sensor limit, timing and fuelling goes bananas, just before it breaks


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## IanW (Jan 7, 2019)

rl_w is engine load.

I think the timing has thrown a wobbly due to the ARMD Intervention (anti judder) and the fuelling has also thrown a wobbly due to the EGT's, probably not far from it going bang at any rate.

I unloaded the wastegate preload, not got down to a preload that registers IE it's still way to high, but it still cracked open at about 212g\s, I think the spring is too soft at the higher revs & air flow.

Going to get the WG preload back to where it was and tone down the tune to the 212g\s mark.

In the longer term (next few months);

- Fit the bigger fuel pump & injectors
- Fit FMIC
- Fit stronger sprung WG actuator
- Fit W\M injection (may be, see how it goes without it)
- Remap

On holiday from this weekend for a couple of week so no work on it for a while.


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

Yeah you're at that point where it's going to cost you £35 per extra bhp.


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## IanW (Jan 7, 2019)

Any experience with FMIC's, I see the branded ones are a lot more expensive than the unbranded, is there that much difference?


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

Don't get 50mm in/out!
I have 64mm in out 550x225x65 (I think)

The official welly cooler set up is actually 76mm in / out., but in my head I imagine 2.5 inch to 3 inch will create lag, and definitely 65mm to 50mm will create heat, so what's the point?

If I had money I would get an airtec as they come with single silicon preformed hoses, rather than sourcing a selection of different silicon and hard pipes.

You MUST have beaded / swaged hard pipes or the pipes will keep popping off. You can make your own beads, look at desertstorm's thread page 2 or 3.

Also be prepared for a trim here and there to avoid the aliens etc in the bumper. It was easier to fit on the TT than S3.


























You should be able to get a setup for under 150 quid, the best I have seen involve 130 degree hardpipes, these take out 2 or 3 connectors.


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## IanW (Jan 7, 2019)

Cheers.


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## benckj (May 23, 2018)

Is it not common to run a A2W IC instead of A2A? I would think with the limited space and efficiency gains using decent HE the A2W would be a no brain decision.


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## A_Banging_Donk (Apr 22, 2017)

benckj said:


> Is it not common to run a A2W IC instead of A2A? I would think with the limited space and efficiency gains using decent HE the A2W would be a no brain decision.


Maybe.. but will be more expensive and harder to setup.. plus, you're going to have to get rid of that heat using another HE.. it seems pretty pointless to me outside of drag applications.


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

Better off spraying screen wash onto the intercooler instead of headlights aren't you?

I was looking on google to see if Ferrari were trying to cheat someway a couple of weeks ago when both their cars failed in qualifying?

Someone had bought some ferrari (sauber) kit in an auction and they used fluid based intercoolers that could have water or freon if you liked in. And said that Mercedes still used air to air intercoolers. This was in 2015, apparently there was no specific rule stating the liquids allowed in the intercoolers.


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## IanW (Jan 7, 2019)

Quick update,

Cleaned the hole around the engine speed sensor socket with a wire brush on a drill and changed the sensor to a Febi one.

Also set the turbo wastegate to 10PSI, now no rev wobble and consistantly hitting 220 - 230 g/s.    








Plan now (when I get round to it) is to;

- Install the uprated fuel pump & 440cc injectors
- Install an FMIC (not sure which one yet)
- Thighten the turbo wastegate a little more (probably need some trial & error)
- Adjust map to suit

Hopefully this will get the extra 20HP to rech the 300HP target.


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

What rev limit have you set?


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## benckj (May 23, 2018)

A_Banging_Donk said:


> benckj said:
> 
> 
> > Is it not common to run a A2W IC instead of A2A? I would think with the limited space and efficiency gains using decent HE the A2W would be a no brain decision.
> ...


Not that difficult to do and has several advantages over A2A. The HE can installed in optimum location with water lines run where you want. IC is much smaller so fits in tight engine bay. Also improved efficiency as it has less head loss and remains cooler with less heat soaking. I'd at least look into it before deciding. Could always adapt an OEM application from several other models which reduces $$ significantly .


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## IanW (Jan 7, 2019)

Rev limit set to 7200 so I can get to 60 before changing to 3rd gear.

Going to have a look at A2W IC and evaluate the pro's & con's at the moment A2A is favourite as it's lot simpler and should suffice for what I need.


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## benckj (May 23, 2018)

Some info to consider;

*A2A*
> light & simple.
> large piping and radiator.
> can be restrictive (depending on piping, HE size).
> inexpensive.
> easy to heat soak.
> can only reach ambient temp.
> many high pressure joins & possible leakage.

*A2W*
> more components & possibly more expensive.
> much heavier than A2A.
> short intake tract & less restrictive (better throttle response).
> efficient cooling unless water become heat soaked.
> possible water leaks and or pump failure.
> HE is smaller and can mount in optimum position.
> IC smaller for tight engine bays.
> can be lowered below ambient temp (ice, AC cooling, Peltier, etc).


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## IanW (Jan 7, 2019)

All things considered going down the A2A route for now, may look at an A2W solution further down the line.


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## benckj (May 23, 2018)

Fair enough. I'd be curious if any example of a 225 installed a A2W. Common on other cars but I couldn't find a TT example.


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## A_Banging_Donk (Apr 22, 2017)

Madmax ran A2W, it's on his build thread.

Good points, personally, I'd rather spend the cash left over from the A2A setup on a WMI kit


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

"ran" ?

Do you know why he stopped, Max really did try virtually everything once.


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## benckj (May 23, 2018)

As a matter of interest I might do dome more digging to find an example then. Run a 3.2 myself do no need on the TT but have a A2W on my MR2 and really like. Built from standard parts cost less than an average A2A and performs great on road + track. Also use WI during high boost sessions as cannot get high octane fuel locally.


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## IanW (Jan 7, 2019)

Disappointing dyno results, but not all bad news.

Headline figure 255.8HP

So after booking dyno for Saturday 21st, the car then develops an exhaust blow (exhaust manifold to turbo) during the week (it was probably there for a bit longer but I hadn't noticed).

So not having time to fix it, it went to the dyno anyway, by this time the blow was pretty bad, you could hear the tractor sound (although it quietened down when it got up to temp) and smell the fumes in the cabin.

The car went on the dyno and I logged the run with ME7logger as well as the actual dyno logging. Here's where the better news comes in, after comparing the previous G\S logs with the dyno run you can see the dyno run is about 5% down.










So extrapolating this out 255.8 X 1.05 = 268.5

So when I was pessimistically looking at 260 and optimistically looking at 280, 268.5 is not a bad result.

It also looks like dividing the G\S by 0.8 is slightly off but a good indicator of HP, all manner of things are going to influence it.

Next steps;
•	Mend exhaust blow
•	Fit the bigger injectors & fuel pump
•	Purchase & install a FMIC
•	Update map
•	Re-dyno

Might get it done before Christmas, but have a fair amount of DIY to do first to keep Her-Indoors happy.

PS
Looking back at it, I should have gone for some sort of top mounted Turbo, it would be a lot easier to work on.


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

Interesting stuff, do you have the full me7logger log and dyno printout?

I assume you had used v-power ?


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## A_Banging_Donk (Apr 22, 2017)

Assuming that you've overlayed before exhaust leak and during dyno, you can tell from the difference in spool that the leak is pretty bad!

Keep us updated


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## IanW (Jan 7, 2019)

Yep,

It sounded like a tractor until it warmed up.

About 70 -30 V-Power & Sainsburys Super (97 or 98 can't remenber)

Files attached, the 95-110 is the dyno run (with exhaust blow), 245-260 without noticable exhaust blow


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## StuartDB (Feb 10, 2018)

Are you sure it's a manifold to turbo gasket leak?


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## gotwebsite1 (5 mo ago)

IanW said:


> Anybody know if you can get to 300HP without a FMIC on a 225 BAM?
> 
> ECUxPlot is saying I'm at 290HP, tried a few map adjustments but seemed to have stalled at 290HP.
> 
> ...


How are you able to run 440cc injectors without a tune?

Also what do you log with the ME7 logger in order to run it in ECUxPlot? Thanks


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