# How to make the TTOC more democratic.



## Mark Davies

This is only may opinion but I've had a few months now to observe the management of the club while it has been disintegrating and analyse what may be at the heart of the problem. My conclusion is that it wasn't about the specific issues being debated nor was it due to the personalities involved. The root of the problem was the manner in which the Club was run by a committee of individuals who had no real mandate from the membership but yet were still making executive decisions. In effect major issues were being decided by vote by just 9 or less individuals. In my view such a scenario is inevitably going to lead to exactly the sort of personal conflicts that did arise, regardless of who is involved. So, to stop this happening again I think we need to change the way decisions are made.

We can't continue to run the club by committee - or certainly not a committee that has no direction or input from the membership - otherwise everything that is done is simply the will of a very few individuals imposed on everyone else. Fortunately, in this day and age of technology, I don't think it would be all that difficult for the membership to be far more engaged in the business of the club.

*Getting Members Voting*

As I see it you can't actually join the TTOC any other way than by buying a membership in the online shop, therefore it's reasonably safe to presume all TTOC members have access to the internet. The Club has a forum, forums can have polls, so let's use it.

I propose that whenever someone joins the Club they automatically have a user account opened for them on the TTOC forum. Their user name will be their membership number (I'll explain why shortly) and they will be given a default password. We then send them a 'Welcome to the Club' e-mail with their username and password for the forum, and of course asking them to go to the forum and change the password to one of their own choosing so only they can have access.

The reason for making the username the membership number is so that we can ensure nobody has any multiple accounts. The signed-up members on the forum should all be part of a series of consecutive numbers. Before there is a vote the members' list can easily be audited simply by going through it ensuring all the numbers in the list run consecutively, with nothing inserted that doesn't fit the numeric sequence and that the highest number is that of the last membership issued. The site will automatically display the members list in this fashion. Whenever someone's Club membership expires then their account can be temporarily suspended, either indefinitely if they never sign up again or be re-opened when they next pay their membership fee. By this method we have ensured 'one person - one vote'.

Of course we don't all want to just appear as numbers, do we? And we want to know who we're talking to, of course. Well, on these forums we all have a tag attached to our accounts. Very often they are automatic, giving some sort of status depending on how many posts we've got. So here it might say 'Forum Member' or maybe 'TTOC Member'. Well the boards can be set so individuals can set their own tags, so therefore when we open an account for someone and send them the details in the welcome e-mail we also suggest they change this tag to a name of their choice to identify themselves more personally, and perhaps to use the same name as they have on TTF (if they post there) for continuity.

So there we have the basic machinery for a democratic system.

*Electing the Committee*

We invite applications, with persons nominated and seconded according to the requirements of the constitution. There's a closing date, of course.

Then, for each position on the committee we create a thread on the forum, with a poll. Each candidate is asked to prepare an election statement (max number of words) which they post on that thread. No other posts are allowed.

The poll is left open for a specified period of time - a week perhaps. We e-mail the entire membership, inviting them to vote in the elections with links to each poll. The members read the election statements and on that basis make their choice. At the appointed closing time for the poll, the election is complete.

We are of course going to have posts that are uncontested with a single candidate. I'd suggest we still run a poll, because that individual would still need membership approval. I propose, in such instances, that the candidate would be appointed if 50% of the total people voting approved; the total of voters being determined by the highest number of total votes shown from the various election polls (because not everyone is necessarily going to cast a vote for every committee position). In this way we can at least surmise more members approve the appointment than oppose it, giving that candidate a certain amount of legitimacy.

What if they don't get 50% of the vote? We'll have to discuss that one I think, because I don't think there's an obvious answer. I'm sure we can work out a solution.

Now I imagine most members, when being prompted by the e-mail, will make the effort to vote. It won't be much effort and it won't take much time, so why wouldn't they? I'd expect a pretty high 'turn out' and therefore a considerable improvement on the virtually non-existant participation we currently have.

*Policy Decisions*

I don't think the committee should be making policy decisions on their own. They are not a board of directors of a limited company wielding executive power; they are stewards charged with the care of the club, nothing more. This isn't a big club. It doesn't tend to have any major issues. The necessity for big decisions doesn't come round very often - so there's really no expectation that the committee need to do it.

If those on the committee, or indeed any members of the club, have any ideas about changes or something new then I see no difficulty in canvassing the opinion of the whole Club. Whatever the proposal is it gets posted as a thread on the forum, outlined in detail. Once more an e-mail is sent out to the entire membership inviting them to take a look. The thread is left open for a specified period of time (2 weeks perhaps) during which the members can comment on the proposal and debate its merits. Then a poll is added to the thread which is left open for another period (say a week) allowing the members to vote - a simple yes or no - during which time the debate can continue. On the closing date we have a democratic decision.

I'd suggest for the vote to be valid we would need a minimum level of participation - a certain percentage of the membership. If the total votes cast don't meet that minimum then the proposal fails and isn't carried, on the basis that it hasn't attracted sufficient support. For that reason the vote should generally be 'yes or no', not 'either or'.

So a fully democratic decision is reached in 3 weeks. It may seem a long time but we're talking about deciding major issues here and it would be a very rare occurance for such decisions to be needed in an emergency.

Perhaps a good example of the sort of decision we could use this process for (but also an exception to the 'yes or no' rule) would be choosing where to hold _evenTT_. The way I see that working is we'd invite people to suggest venues and come up with proposals. And we'd expect those to be detailed proposals, with people checking out the venue to be able to detail the facilities, exploring the feasability with availability and costings. The various proposals would be posted on a specific thread. Around those proposals the merits of the various options can be debated. At a specified closing date a poll is opened by starting a new thread for the purpose with the detailed proposals copied to the thread to remove the 'clutter' of the previous discussions. As before, we simply run the poll for a specified time.

Whoever proposed the winning venue would then be invited to assist in organising the event, in partnership with the Events Secretary from the committee who'd be bringing continuity, experience and the expertise that goes with it to the process.

So, as I hope you can see, engaging the membership really isn't as difficult and labourious as you'd imagine. In fact it can be increadibly simple. What's more, giving the membership a far greater level of participation is going to encourage them to be more involved. Not only will they be taking part in votes but I'd expect they'd be far more likely to attend local meetings, and that can only be good for the long-term health of the Club.

But this of course is only my idea and I'm just one member of the Club. So, what do the rest of you think? (Perhaps we should have a poll? :wink: )


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## Skipton01

I heartily concur with pretty much all the above. Maybe we need to tweak the numbers and percentages to make the vote valid, but in principal, it's very much what I was thinking.

Perhaps we should also move a vote of thanks to those that have carried TTOC this far and have put time and effort (and probably some of their own money) in, but we all need to realise that there is a difference between ownership of the forum and governance of the forum.

I think that in recent months, the lines between the two have become blurred and so clarification is needed. As Jae has said recently, TTOC if it were to split from TTF, would certainly lose revenue and if it were reliant on membership fees alone, it would soon wither and die. Given the choice of a chat/discussion forum free of charge or a chat/discussion forum with a quarterly magazine for £30+, I know what the majority would choose.

My own club A2OC, which I've been a co-owner, moderator and Technical Director of for 10+ years, is going through a similar debate at the moment. The difference with A2OC is that our forum has so far been free for all and we're now debating whether to introduce a membership fee for added benefits (such as marketplace access). We would not make the general discussion forum a paid for entity.

However, I'm starting to ramble. TTOC needs reform and needs it very soon, before members decide to leave the politics to others and not bother renewing their membership.


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## rustyintegrale

I agree pretty much with what Mark is saying but think the plans for Policy Decisions could create more problems than they solve.

If people stand for election as custodians of the club they must present a manifesto exactly as Mark suggests. This should outline their vision for the club and their proposals for growing both the membership and membership involvement in it.

The membership will then vote for the candidates whose manifesto most closely reflects their personal beliefs and wishes. The person who wins the vote for each post then joins the other winners to form a committee that should then be given mandate to act on the members' behalf.

To ask people to stand for election and then expect to retain the right to scrutinise their every action is in my view counter-productive. The committee already gives up a lot of time and energy to run the club and to have to seek approval from members by running a poll every time a decision is required will simply add another level of administration that will further slow the real business of making things happen.

I believe decision making should be left in the hands of democratically elected members who have been chosen to act on the members' behalf. If you vote for that member then you should accept that premise.

Having said that, the WHOLE committee should vote on policy and major decisions. What appears to have happened latterly is a closed vote only open to a select few. That is plainly wrong and totally undemocratic.

However we cannot let recent activity cloud our views of how a proper committee should act. It is important that we do not tie the hands of those elected to maintain and push the club forward. If you don't trust the candidates to do the job then don't vote for them.


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## KammyTT

As far as I know it's all going to a vote


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## Gazzer

agree with both..............but!!!

how about is the nominated committee do not have a majority vote (say 75%) on major issues or proposals.......then it is done as a poll to the membership. that way it should stop any rows in the committee erupting as it is the members wishes that would dictate.

hastily written as i am on the ovens today, so will pop back in from time to time.


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## rustyintegrale

Gazzer said:


> agree with both..............but!!!
> 
> how about is the nominated committee do not have a majority vote (say 75%) on major issues or proposals.......then it is done as a poll to the membership. that way it should stop any rows in the committee erupting as it is the members wishes that would dictate.


Yep, I'd agree with that. But on day-to-day stuff it should be a whole committee vote with the exception of the chairman who has the casting vote in the event of a tie.

The whole process has to be simple, fast and final. Otherwise it just clogs process, takes too much time and builds frustration.


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## Mark Davies

I knew the micro-management argument would arise, but consider; just how many decisions need to be made?

The main activity of the club has nothing whatsoever to do with the committee; it's the monthly meetings, cruises, days out and weekends away which are all organised by the regional reps and the members themselves. So what do the committee do? They administer memberships, they run the shop, they publish a quarterly magazine and they stage an annual event. Ancilliary to that there's looking after the finances and managing the forum. All of these are by now well established functions and routine - there really isn't much decision making to do, it's just getting on with the business.

And there's a danger with comparing the management of the club and its elections with political elections. Sounds great asking everyone to present a manifesto on which to be elected *but*;

1) We don't have organised parties that will put up a whole group to be elected, so different people will be elected to the committee who will have different manifestos and ideas, and the result? You've got it - conflict and dispute.

2) Sadly, the norm is very likely to be that many posts are not going to be contested. Most people are quite happy to leave someone else to run their club for them rather than put any effort in themselves, so we can expect to be offered only one choice and only one manifesto. What if we don't agree with that but have to appoint that individual anyway? We've tacitly approved something we don't agree with, and the result? You've got it - dictatorship.

These are exactly the problems we're trying to eliminate.

I understand where you are coming from but I truly believe we have to break this mentality that the committee are some kind of club elite having meetings in secret on their own VIP forum (did you know there is a secret VIP forum?) and wielding executive power to the complete exclusion of the members.

As I said this club is not a complex organisation needing a great deal of management. The committee can very easily be limited to a tight remit of daily duties; simple stewardship just keeping the ship going in a determined direction on an even keel. 'Big' decisions (such as whether or not to retain the TTOC members access privilages to the TTF marketplace) are unlikely to come about more than 2 or 3 times a year. The truth is, if you give people the power to tinker then they will think of things to do just for the sake of doing it. Take that power away and you soon find there's rarely any necessity to change anything.

We're not talking about membership votes every week - in fact I think it's quite realistic to expect to sometimes be able to get through an entire year with no votes at all.


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## rustyintegrale

Mark Davies said:


> Most people are quite happy to leave someone else to run their club for them rather than put any effort in themselves...


And that's precisely why a set of individuals elected by the membership to make the decisions is important.

Apathy abounds. How many people have actually contributed to all these discussions about recent events? How many would actually exercise their vote each time there is a poll?

I don't buy your view that the club is just about maintaining the status quo. What about innovation, new ideas, doing something about building the profile of the club and the quality of membership? The club needs to change and you need decision makers with imagination to do that. By their very nature, those that put themselves up for this will already possess the belief and passion for the club required to make a difference and I don't mean change for change's sake.

Regarding the Committee forum, yes I did know about it - I had a short exposure to TTOC life beforehand remember so I know what it's like. :roll: It is a useful tool for sharing information and files etc. and with the committee spread all over the country it makes a lot of sense.


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## Mark Davies

I agree there seems to be few people engaged here at the moment, but bear in mind most people don't spend their lives in front of the computer browsing internet forums so they're just not all here watching. They're busy most of the time. But that doesn't mean they won't take time to vote on a particular issue 2 or 3 times a year when prompted to do so, does it? You'll never know until you give them the chance.

And why does there have to be regular and constant change and innovation? There is a legal standard of conduct for people running clubs and voluntary organizations that has been developed through case law in the courts. That standard is one of prudence - the general measure being that people given charge of stewardship over the organization should endeavour to leave the club in no worse a position than it was when they found it. The standard required does not demand a culture of risk-taking and forcing through change for change's sake. And sadly experience suggests it would be change for change's sake - when you give people the authority to tinker they will do so, just to exercise the power. When you're managing something that is owned equally by a large number of people then your duty is to be careful with it - not to mess with it.

The structure I propose would not tend to stifle innovation. In fact quite the opposite, because it opens up opportunity for everyone in the club to put forward proposals, so were not just relying on (or more importantly restricted to) the ideas of a very few people. But what is does ensure is that when there are changes made they are only the ones that most of the club wanted.

So yes, it does rely on people getting involved. But I don't think we should just presume they won't because of current standards, because up to now the membership have been competely disenfranchised in the club. If you don't allow people any input then you shouldn't be surprised when they don't take part. Have a bit of faith in your fellow members. I think if we allow and encourage them to get involved then they will.


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## A3DFU

Good suggestions Mark. I can see that an on-line vote / AGM will involve many more members than it currently does and helps make the running of the club more tranparent.

Just one thing to add:
it's easy to write any manifesto that sounds good. How do we ensure that the person stating his/her vision sticks to it?


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## Gazzer

A3DFU said:


> Good suggestions Mark. I can see that an on-line vote / AGM will involve many more members than it currently does and helps make the running of the club more tranparent.
> 
> Just one thing to add:
> it's easy to write manifesto that sounds good. How do we ensure that the person stating his/her vision sticks to it?


each must wear electrified undies Dani...........and if they don't do as they promised then 240volts to gennies :roll: 
joking btw folks


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## burns

Mark, this is a fabulous idea. It means I will no longer have to give up my free time for committee discussions, or risk being verbally attacked when I hold a contrary view to certain other people. Instead, we'll have a referendum on each and every issue faced by the club, and I can sit back and let the members do the work. It's the easy life for me


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## brittan

To follow posting on both forums:

Some good points there Mark.

*Member Voting:* Agree; very likely the mechanism will need some development but a necessary move.
*
Electing the Committee:* Agree that this needs to be an on-line vote to encompass all the members. The on-line system may well have the effect of encouraging more people to consider putting up for a position on the committee.
In advance of that I think we need to carefully consider the make up of the committee, how many it comprises and what those positions are. Clearly there are some 'default' positions on any such committee but as I've posted on other threads I believe that there can be Club Officers for a particular job or task but who do not sit on the committee.

*Policy Decisions:* Again agree but a careful line needs to be trod to ensure that this is for policy only and the committee are not hamstrung in carrying out normal business.
I don't think the example of the venue for the next EvenTT is a good one. There are people within the club and committee with good experience of what type of venue is required, where it should be, nearby hotels, cost restrictions etc.
By all means draft in one or two extra people to help with particular aspects, invite members (not just the Reps) to help out on the day but I think this is simply normal business for the committee and Events Sec.
As far as a vote on the venue is concerned I think we'd just end up with a venue that corresponded to the highest geographical density of TTOC members - and that's not in the South West!

*AGM: *Whilst conducting most if not all AGM business is good, even desirable, to involve the most members possible, I think it would be a retrograde step to abandon it completely. Even if it comes down to something like a Q&A session and/or a short committee meeting with members looking on, I still think it's good to sit the committee down face to face with (some of) the members whose interest they look after.


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## brittan

burns said:


> Mark, this is a fabulous idea. It means I will no longer have to give up my free time for committee discussions, or risk being verbally attacked when I hold a contrary view to certain other people. Instead, we'll have a referendum on each and every issue faced by the club, and I can sit back and let the members do the work. It's the easy life for me


That's an interesting view point.

If us members are doing the work, why do we need you on the committee?

In addition to sitting back, you could then put your feet up too


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## Nem

I will say that the committee had already listened to Mark's view about all of this, and his 'fresh eyes' to the situation were quite refreshing. We had all agreed that changes were necessary even down to rewriting the entire constitution if needed and it needed doing in time for the AGM this year as a must.

The current method of emailing the membership about their vote does seem inadequate seeing the response from last year, but we now have a members are which is private and idea to host this in some way.

There has been no opposition to any of this and in fact Mark's view was that a lot of the things the committee were arguing about could actually be put to the members and decided by them, taking away that element from the committee and letting them get on with their own areas of running the club.

The only downside which was raised was where to draw the line at needing to put something to the membership, if Andrew for example needed more envelopes does he need to get member approval? Of course not, but it illustrates the point.


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## Gazzer

tbh Nick, if each and every committee member knows exactly what they are tasked with for the next 1/4. then in reality a monthly mail boshed off to keep the other members informed is all that would be required maybe. if it was a big evenTT coming up then more frequant contact would be required i assume to make things run smoothly.
any system that allows you guys/gals to press on without any of the rows is a good system i feel, it is just how to impliment it.


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## MonTheFish

To save me typing.....

it's as simple as this....


rustyintegrale said:


> To ask people to stand for election and then expect to retain the right to scrutinise their every action is in my view counter-productive. The committee already gives up a lot of time and energy to run the club and to have to seek approval from members by running a poll every time a decision is required will simply add another level of administration that will further slow the real business of making things happen.
> 
> I believe decision making should be left in the hands of democratically elected members who have been chosen to act on the members' behalf. If you vote for that member then you should accept that premise.
> 
> ......
> 
> However we cannot let recent activity cloud our views of how a proper committee should act. It is important that we do not tie the hands of those elected to maintain and push the club forward. If you don't trust the candidates to do the job then don't vote for them.


and this....



rustyintegrale said:


> Mark Davies said:
> 
> 
> 
> Most people are quite happy to leave someone else to run their club for them rather than put any effort in themselves...
> 
> 
> 
> And that's precisely why a set of individuals elected by the membership to make the decisions is important.
> 
> Apathy abounds. How many people have actually contributed to all these discussions about recent events? How many would actually exercise their vote each time there is a poll?
> 
> I don't buy your view that the club is just about maintaining the status quo. What about innovation, new ideas, doing something about building the profile of the club and the quality of membership? The club needs to change and you need decision makers with imagination to do that. By their very nature, those that put themselves up for this will already possess the belief and passion for the club required to make a difference and I don't mean change for change's sake.
> 
> Regarding the Committee forum, yes I did know about it - I had a short exposure to TTOC life beforehand remember so I know what it's like. :roll: It is a useful tool for sharing information and files etc. and with the committee spread all over the country it makes a lot of sense.
Click to expand...


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## LordG71

OK, all good discussion, but what now?

How do we turn this into action?


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## Gazzer

LordG71 said:


> OK, all good discussion, but what now?
> 
> How do we turn this into action?


it is either an EGM (emergency general meeting) or wait for the AGM (annual general meeting) to take it to the members.
at this point the committee have chilled and the realisation that they could be voted out completely may be sinking in! however as Mark has said..........if no other candidates stand for election then they could just retain their titles and positions anyway.
so the main thought Mark has brought to the table is if that is the case.......safeguards need putting into place so this problem doesn't raise it's head again.


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## LordG71

so we have three options:

1. do nothing
2. wait for next AGM
3. call an emergency AGM

why don't we put this to the vote on here - ask the members to vote as to which option they want?

we then act accordingly to the outcome.


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## audimad

LordG71 said:


> so we have three options:
> 
> 1. do nothing
> 2. wait for next AGM
> 3. call an emergency AGM
> 
> why don't we put this to the vote on here - ask the members to vote as to which option they want?
> 
> we then act accordingly to the outcome.


I vote on option 3.


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## Nem

I am presently working with other committee members to provide a statement on the way forward. This will be issued as soon as all committee members, including Mark and Dani, have been able to have their input to it.

We appreciate all of the concerns raised so far and would ask you wait for this communication to allow the stability of the club to be ensured throughout this process.


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## paulc1

It's all very good asking the TTOC committee with all their experience to stand down , but who is going to replace them who knows what they are doing on running a business , for them it's not just a business it's a responsibility to make sure our car club runs well and makes money so we can all enjoy the mag and the events they organise so professionally ,these people that work very hard behind the scenes for FREE deserve the 
chance to sort the problems that have happened without everyone chucking their view in , it's very easy to criticise from behind your keyboard when your not actually doing anything to help the club , so step back and let these people who do this cause they love the same car as you try and sort this out , because if they all go ( and some might wish that ) the club would lose loads of experience which could jeopardise the future of the TTOC and I dont want that to happen


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## Hev

paulc1 said:


> It's all very good asking the TTOC committee with all their experience to stand down , but who is going to replace them who knows what they are doing on running a business , for them it's not just a business it's a responsibility to make sure our car club runs well and makes money so we can all enjoy the mag and the events they organise so professionally ,these people that work very hard behind the scenes for FREE deserve the
> chance to sort the problems that have happened without everyone chucking their view in , it's very easy to criticise from behind your keyboard when your not actually doing anything to help the club , so step back and let these people who do this cause they love the same car as you try and sort this out , because if they all go ( and some might wish that ) the club would lose loads of experience which could jeopardise the future of the TTOC and I dont want that to happen


Well said that man! [smiley=dude.gif]

Hev x


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## bigbison

hi every one just one question i would like to ask , how much money has the tt forum contributed to the ttoc over the last 12 years or so ?
regards
bigbison


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## jamman

bigbison said:


> hi every one just one question i would like to ask , how much money has the tt forum contributed to the ttoc over the last 12 or so ?
> regards
> bigbison


I'm sure one of your buddies will tell you :wink:


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## Hev

jamman ~ I've just noticed your TTOC sig strip.......that is not really being helpful :?

Hev x


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## paulc1

Hev said:


> jamman ~ I've just noticed your TTOC sig strip.......that is not really being helpful :?
> 
> Hev x


That sort of thing part of the problem not the solution , that's keyboard warriors for you


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## bigbison

who s my buddys ?


jamman said:


> bigbison said:
> 
> 
> 
> hi every one just one question i would like to ask , how much money has the tt forum contributed to the ttoc over the last 12 or so ?
> regards
> bigbison
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure one of your buddies will tell you :wink:
Click to expand...


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## jamman

Im no keyboard warrior say hi at the meets I will say it straight to your face.

Not being helpful ..... :roll:

They do need to get a grip end of.

If they don't like it they can refuse my membership request when I dont submit it :wink:

It's pathetic what has gone on and how things have been handled.


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## Hev

jamman said:


> Im no keyboard warrior say hi at the meets I will say it straight to your face.
> 
> Not being helpful ..... :roll:
> 
> They do need to get a grip end of.
> 
> If they don't like it they can refuse my membership request when I dont submit it :wink:
> 
> It's pathetic what has gone on and how things have been handled.


And it is childish comments like this that does not move things forward. Nick/Nem has already stated that the committee are writing a statement and how to move the club forward. I think they have 'got a grip' and I personally feel that we need to give them an opportunity to resolve this horrible state of affairs we find ourselves in.

There has been heated discussion and lots of snap comments made but now it is time to be adults.

Hev x


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## bigbison

i am asking genuine question like every one else is as i am a straight talker.


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## jamman

bigbison said:


> i am asking genuine question like every one else is as i am a straight talker.


I would PM the TTOC treasurer then mate details below 

memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=10519


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## paulc1

jamman said:


> Im no keyboard warrior say hi at the meets I will say it straight to your face.
> 
> Not being helpful ..... :roll:
> 
> They do need to get a grip end of.
> 
> If they don't like it they can refuse my membership request when I dont submit it :wink:
> 
> It's pathetic what has gone on and how things have been handled.


Oh and you feel your signature helps the situation does it , it doesn't , your comments are always wink wink , snide snide , why doesn't everyone give the club time to sort it self out instead of constant baiting which doesn't help , it's a amazing club which I'm proud to be part of , i nearly sold my TT to buy a 911 and the one reason I didn't was the TTOC as I enjoy all the meets from the local meets setup by TTK8 and TTRS to the big events at gayden and I feel its a special club that needs time to sort its self


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## jamman

TTK8 a lovely person I have a lot of time for her. 

Adjusted my sig and I promise I wont post again :roll:


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## Audiphil

Nem said:


> I am presently working with other committee members to provide a statement on the way forward. This will be issued as soon as all committee members, including Mark and Dani, have been able to have their input to it.
> 
> We appreciate all of the concerns raised so far and would ask you wait for this communication to allow the stability of the club to be ensured throughout this process.


Nem,

That's good to hear,

Thank you

Phil


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## clived

bigbison said:


> hi every one just one question i would like to ask , how much money has the tt forum contributed to the ttoc over the last 12 years or so ?
> regards
> bigbison


Not sure if any of the present committee were around back in 2002 onwards, so I'll have a go at answering that for the period 2002 - 2008.

Zero. The sources of income for the club in this period were:

* Membership fees
* Small margin on merchandise
* Traders fees at EvenTT
* EvenTT ticket sales (used toward event cost, obviously)
* Money raised from donated items - e.g. the used alloy wheels that Audi gave us that we sold on the members
* Advertising in AbsoluTTe
* Income from the relationship I set up with A-Plan

I don't recall any money from TT-F, but if Jae knows differently happy to update the list 

If the relationship with the TT-F has become a big sticking point for the TTOC it don't know to what degree it is about money or if it is really about the TT-F being the main source of potential members. Historically the TT-F / TTOC relationship was certainly not primarily about money.

Clive


----------



## phope

I don't have the figure immediately to hand, but Jae, as the owner of the TTF, did make a substantial financial contribution towards EvenTT10 at Duxford- a four figure sum if I recall - I had just taken over as treasurer

I recall half was as a cash payment towards the expenses of the event, and half was the costs of the jointly branded lanyards given free to those who attended


----------



## paulc1

Hev said:


> jamman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Im no keyboard warrior say hi at the meets I will say it straight to your face.
> 
> Not being helpful ..... :roll:
> 
> They do need to get a grip end of.
> 
> If they don't like it they can refuse my membership request when I dont submit it :wink:
> 
> It's pathetic what has gone on and how things have been handled.
> 
> 
> 
> And it is childish comments like this that does not move things forward. Nick/Nem has already stated that the committee are writing a statement and how to move the club forward. I think they have 'got a grip' and I personally feel that we need to give them an opportunity to resolve this horrible state of affairs we find ourselves in.
> 
> There has been heated discussion and lots of snap comments made but now it is time to be adults.
> 
> Hev x
Click to expand...

+1


----------



## jamman

+2 :-*


----------



## LordG71

Audiphil said:


> Nem said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am presently working with other committee members to provide a statement on the way forward. This will be issued as soon as all committee members, including Mark and Dani, have been able to have their input to it.
> 
> We appreciate all of the concerns raised so far and would ask you wait for this communication to allow the stability of the club to be ensured throughout this process.
> 
> 
> 
> Nem,
> 
> That's good to hear,
> 
> Thank you
> 
> Phil
Click to expand...

Yup, thanks Nem. Looking forward to the communication.


----------



## Gone

I wrote a longish reply, then got logged out.

Elections by web - agree. 2 year term (or we'll be electing more than we're running anything) with prior nominations sent to committee. Nominees must consent to the nomination and prepare a statement of their suitability for the role. Purely a summary of abilities, skills and experience. No political vision nonsense. Finalised nominees emailed to membership with invite to vote. Doesn't need to be on our own forum or even our own site, Surveymonkey for example will do the same job.

Each election to have a RON candidate to allow recording of abstentions or a refusal to accept re-election of a current member. (Re-Open Nominations)

Member votes on clubs issues should be minimised, committee should have executive power to act on behalf of members - except on extraordinary issues. EG my canoe club, should we spend 40% of our annual disposable income on a fancy new sea kayak; my caving club, we have a 5 figure sum to invest in club facilities, what are the priorities. Easy to do online, again the likes of surveymonkey etc are ideal for this.

Now have a meeting to go to!


----------



## Jae

Clive,

You are quite correct re revenue to TTOC in the period you mentioned. Phope, again, correct in your comments.

The relationship has been primarily about driving membership. The EvenTT10 was about giving something back to everyone as it was the TTF anniversary. Out the back of that, a revenue stream started with regard to banner space sales by TTOC in 2011.

Cheers


----------



## John-H

I agree with what Mark has said regarding democratic reforms and ideas for improvement. Some details need sorting but using electronic voting, using a poll, with proper prior communication explaining important business, so putting the power back with the membership, is very important for direction and engagement of members in what is after all their club. They own the right to govern it because they are the club - not the elected officials who in this respect are just a few members with one vote each like any other - with regard to their right to make big decisions.

A manifesto to elect a committee post is a good idea but anyone can write a good manifesto. More of a CV might be better i.e. consideration of track record and previous experience too. I think we liked the AGM the night before the EveTT for its fun atmosphere - look how badly the one at Critch went down on the day in a portacabin - tinker at your peril. But the AGM could continue in name or as a summary of the vote that's already happened. Details for discussion.

As has been pointed out, the right balance and boundaries need to be put in place so it doesn't veer to micro management which would disengage both members interest in taking part and entusiasm for a committee member to do the job. It of course only needs to be for important decisions and with that there needs to be boundaries - a list of things not to tinker with without prior consultation, explanation and discussion - with the membership.

It is vital that the club is run for the benefit of its members as a whole and not to veer off course to satisfy the wishes or beliefs of those given charge without membership approval. Mark used the phrase "simple stewardship" and that is indeed what the day to day management of the club should be, otherwise it may run counter to the interests of the membership and risks may be taken.

I blew the whistle in the magazine and Steve did on this forum. The proposed changes which led to this all need explaining along with counter arguments to the membership properly, before any fundamental decisions are made which affect the working relationship between the club, this forum and the membership. Specifically, the market place change and removal of TTOC administration and moderation I believe should not not now be enacted until the membership is properly consulted and they have given their informed decision.

Speaking as a non member of course :wink:


----------



## rustyintegrale

John-H said:


> I blew the whistle in the magazine and Steve did on this forum. The proposed changes which led to this all need explaining along with counter arguments to the membership properly, before any fundamental decisions are made which affect the working relationship between the club, this forum and the membership.


Too right.

We've all been waiting patiently for this but so far all we've had is public tittle-tattle amongst the committee. Now it seems you're one-by-one creeping back trying to save face.

I think I know what will happen here and it doesn't smell right.


----------



## rustyintegrale

Hev said:


> I personally feel that we need to give them an opportunity to resolve this horrible state of affairs we find ourselves in.


I'm sorry? '*We* find ourselves in'?! 

The only people responsible for this 'horrible state of affairs' are those on the committee that caused it. Let's not try and minimise the mess by spreading the blame amongst the innocent bystanders.

We're all dumbfounded...


----------



## Gazzer

rustyintegrale said:


> John-H said:
> 
> 
> 
> I blew the whistle in the magazine and Steve did on this forum. The proposed changes which led to this all need explaining along with counter arguments to the membership properly, before any fundamental decisions are made which affect the working relationship between the club, this forum and the membership.
> 
> 
> 
> Too right.
> 
> We've all been waiting patiently for this but so far all we've had is public tittle-tattle amongst the committee. Now it seems you're one-by-one creeping back trying to save face.
> 
> I think I know what will happen here and it doesn't smell right.
Click to expand...

was thinking similar myself Rich.....all calming down and sensability resuming to them all.....oh hmmmmm if we placate them by saying the right thing maybe we can just stay as we are?

it needs a members vote on it.....too properly show all of the children thay cannot act this way to the membership after taking their money!!!


----------



## Gazzer

one more point while i am miffed off waiting for her to get ready to go out for a meal.....

what support and thanks is given to the bloody reps that are plugging away to sort meets out and many very successfully from the ones i have been on with kate and stuart? as i read Nicks minutes and not once in any of them that i read did i see a thank you from the committee and on behalf of the membership WELL DONE THOSE HARD WORKING REPS......as on many occasions it is you that make this club so good!!!

rant over..........Happy Valentines folks xxx (big one for Danni & Sara)


----------



## rustyintegrale

Gazzer said:


> rustyintegrale said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> John-H said:
> 
> 
> 
> I blew the whistle in the magazine and Steve did on this forum. The proposed changes which led to this all need explaining along with counter arguments to the membership properly, before any fundamental decisions are made which affect the working relationship between the club, this forum and the membership.
> 
> 
> 
> Too right.
> 
> We've all been waiting patiently for this but so far all we've had is public tittle-tattle amongst the committee. Now it seems you're one-by-one creeping back trying to save face.
> 
> I think I know what will happen here and it doesn't smell right.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...




Gazzer said:


> ...it needs a members vote on it...


Absolutely. That is the only way anyone in the committee can be assured of members' confidence. Likewise anyone else who stands for a position.

I will join specifically to cast a vote. It's important to put a stop to this rot.


----------



## Skipton01

rustyintegrale said:


> I will join specifically to cast a vote. It's important to put a stop to this rot.


Can I put it another way, I will pledge NOT to rejoin unless a membership vote is undertaken and the committee 'issues' are resolved.


----------



## Gazzer

Rich pay ya web membership and its close to the figure.....
Skippy, can I assume you want the vote then?""""" Will add you if that is the case sir


----------



## Skipton01

Gazzer said:


> Skippy, can I assume you want the vote then?""""" Will add you if that is the case sir


Correct - if there's a call for an EGM, then please add me to the list. It seems that the committee has forgotten that they're there to serve the membership, rather than the other way around.

I'm not wanting to oust anyone from the committee necessarily, I'm not a revolutionary, I just want to restore some accountability.


----------



## neilc

Can I just say that at the moment the only people posting pretty much are Gary and Rich , 1 member and 1 non member , and I honestly believe that the vast majority would just quite like the committee to come up with their statement on potential change and take it from there.

And then we can decide as members if it's acceptable or not.

A few can not affect the majority , I think we have already learnt that.


----------



## rustyintegrale

neilc said:


> Can I just say that at the moment the only people posting pretty much are Gary and Rich , 1 member and 1 non member , and I honestly believe that the vast majority would just quite like the committee to come up with their statement on potential change and take it from there.
> 
> And then we can decide as members if it's acceptable or not.


I'm with you on that. But democracy should and will rule. And as of last night I am a member.


----------



## neilc

Welcome to the TTOC


----------



## A3DFU

rustyintegrale said:


> And as of last night I am a member.


Welcome back Rich


----------



## A3DFU

rustyintegrale said:


> John-H said:
> 
> 
> 
> I blew the whistle in the magazine and Steve did on this forum. The proposed changes which led to this all need explaining along with counter arguments to the membership properly, before any fundamental decisions are made which affect the working relationship between the club, this forum and the membership.
> 
> 
> 
> Too right.
Click to expand...

The problem here is Rich that, both, Steve and John posted their views on here where everyone can read it and comment on.
There is a long thread on the TTOC Forum by Nick ("My side of the Strory") which doesn't give John any chance to comment on any points raised as he can't see the TTOC Forum board. :?


----------



## rustyintegrale

A3DFU said:


> rustyintegrale said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> John-H said:
> 
> 
> 
> I blew the whistle in the magazine and Steve did on this forum. The proposed changes which led to this all need explaining along with counter arguments to the membership properly, before any fundamental decisions are made which affect the working relationship between the club, this forum and the membership.
> 
> 
> 
> Too right.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The problem here is Rich that, both, Steve and John posted their views on here where everyone can read it and comment on.
> There is a long thread on the TTOC Forum by Nick ("My side of the Strory") which doesn't give John any chance to comment on any points raised as he can't see the TTOC Forum board. :?
Click to expand...

Well that is entirely wrong. With all this talk of democracy it would seem only right that Nick should make it available to all, not just those who have paid to join the TTOC to become part of the conversation. :roll: (Very clever marketing by the way!)

If John no longer has access to it that is a tad unfair. If there is to be discussion then all interested parties should be entitled to read and comment. That is what a democracy is all about.


----------



## rustyintegrale

neilc said:


> Welcome to the TTOC


Thanks Neil.


----------



## jamman

How long does it take to draft a proposal ?


----------



## Gazzer

neilc said:


> Can I just say that at the moment the only people posting pretty much are Gary and Rich , 1 member and 1 non member , and I honestly believe that the vast majority would just quite like the committee to come up with their statement on potential change and take it from there.
> 
> And then we can decide as members if it's acceptable or not.
> 
> A few can not affect the majority , I think we have already learnt that.


Neil you are a very capable guy in many aspects and would make a fantastic events manager............
i am posting because i still see a wrong doing in John being expelled from the ttoc.....so he cannot even respond to his critics and is so unfair. at present there are 23 people that have signed up towards demanding an egm and in so ensuring you as a member will have your say no matter what!!!
now i already know that you do some great meets on behalf of the TTOC and in the Neil's.......own particular way to entice and keep it good humoured and lively events. and is there a set format for events or is it however you want to do it? whatever the format is Neil well done on bringing a lively set of events.....be it meet and greet or a good old track charity event to your locality.............


----------



## neilc

Hey Gary ,

What do you mean very capable in many aspects......... :wink: All aspects Gary , get it right.

Well I certainly do love events and yes in general terms I have a free hand with what I propose for local events and always try to organise an event or meet that's involves a good element of fun and as you know am quite partial to a little bit of track driving and will do more such events this year too.

I think during all of this process , we all need to remember as you have said that the regional meets are the backbone of the TTOC and the people who come to the meets need to enjoy the process and most all keep coming back too.


----------



## Gazzer

neilc said:


> Hey Gary ,
> 
> What do you mean very capable in many aspects......... :wink: All aspects Gary , get it right.
> 
> Well I certainly do love events and yes in general terms I have a free hand with what I propose for local events and always try to organise an event or meet that's involves a good element of fun and as you know am quite partial to a little bit of track driving and will do more such events this year too.
> 
> I think during all of this process , we all need to remember as you have said that the regional meets are the backbone of the TTOC and the people who come to the meets need to enjoy the process and most all keep coming back too.


Amen brother............


----------



## Skipton01

jamman said:


> How long does it take to draft a proposal ?


First of all, the Chair & committee need to acknowledge that there's a problem!

In the interest of fairness, I'd ask that John is immediately re-instated, pending any other committee proposals, then we'll have our editor back and fairness/right to reply will be restored, maybe temporarily, but it's a start!


----------



## Gazzer

Skipton01 said:


> jamman said:
> 
> 
> 
> How long does it take to draft a proposal ?
> 
> 
> 
> First of all, the Chair & committee need to acknowledge that there's a problem!
> 
> In the interest of fairness, I'd ask that John is immediately re-instated, pending any other committee proposals, then we'll have our editor back and fairness/right to reply will be restored, maybe temporarily, but it's a start!
Click to expand...

has been asked for nearly a week with no response tbh........


----------



## phope

Gary...

Some committee members had a Skype chat on Wednesday night on a number of matters- not everyone could manage unfortunately, so we've asked those who weren't there for their comments as well. We'd like to get a statement out at the earliest opportunity

People do have outside jobs and shift patterns - TTOC is not a full time job, so it's not always easy to get people together at relatively short notice

Patience, please


----------



## mighTy Tee

rustyintegrale said:


> And as of last night I am a member.


Having seen this and after 10 continuous membership years maybe it is time to go......... :roll:


----------



## rustyintegrale

mighTy Tee said:


> rustyintegrale said:
> 
> 
> 
> And as of last night I am a member.
> 
> 
> 
> Having seen this and after 10 continuous membership years maybe it is time to go......... :roll:
Click to expand...

 :lol: :lol: Have we ever met?

I don't believe we have, yet you've already formed your opinion (or had it formed for you). :wink:

Of course you're entirely free to believe anything you like. I have no opinion of you at all and so won't make any assumptions about you or your beliefs until such time as I can make a first-hand judgement.

Under the circumstances I can't say fairer than that... :wink:


----------



## A3DFU

Skipton01 said:


> jamman said:
> 
> 
> 
> How long does it take to draft a proposal ?
> 
> 
> 
> First of all, the Chair & committee need to acknowledge that there's a problem!
Click to expand...

Some of the committee members have done that Mike :wink:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=316744


----------



## A3DFU

John-H said:


> Speaking as a non member of course :wink:


Guess that's why your sig strip was removed :?


----------



## Gazzer

phope said:


> Gary...
> 
> Some committee members had a Skype chat on Wednesday night on a number of matters- not everyone could manage unfortunately, so we've asked those who weren't there for their comments as well. We'd like to get a statement out at the earliest opportunity
> 
> People do have outside jobs and shift patterns - TTOC is not a full time job, so it's not always easy to get people together at relatively short notice
> 
> Patience, please


Peter i appreciate the fact that some folks work shifts and to get them all on a skype call at once is not always easy. however many members have expressed a wish for the EGM, so it is quite ironic that the final member to sign up will be Rich aka rusty........that is unless his membership is also denied on political grounds maybe this time?
a vote of the members is a good thing, not a bad thing....as it can only benefit the club in the long run many feel. i am in no way the spokesman or even the person that has instrumented this call for action to be honest. i do however wholeheartedly believe in this course of action due to John's ejection and inability to defend against those that accuse him bud.

to save another quote from ttoc forum.........

in answer to Danni's statement that john has now been stripped of his sig strip of editor.......speaks loud and clear on any hope of really sorting this out as the committee still or at least some of them........have condemmed john without the ability to defend himself! and you ask for patience when in the background the scheming is still going. Peter can i ask a question? if and i mean if the membership vote you back in, will you do as the members ask in a democratic way?


----------



## phope

Gary - I don't recall on that Skype call anyone discussing removing John's sig

When it comes to an AGM or EGM, and when voting has taken place on whatever proposals have been put forward for the club structure, then that'll be for any committee to abide by

As has been said above, people like Mark want to help ensure that there is a good, robust voting system available as well.


----------



## Nem

I removed johns editor sig Friday night along with his committee group and access.

Nothing has changed since then, so please stop jumping to conclusions.


----------



## Gazzer

phope said:


> Gary - I don't recall on that Skype call anyone discussing removing John's sig
> 
> When it comes to an AGM or EGM, and when voting has taken place on whatever proposals have been put forward for the club structure, then that'll be for any committee to abide by
> 
> As has been said above, people like Mark want to help ensure that there is a good, robust voting system available as well.


Peter, so someone has off their own back edited john's sig to remove his title of editor? as you still have the ability to see the logs can you say who done it?


----------



## phope

I have no ability to see, amend or delete any logs whatsoever, and never have had that ability


----------



## Gazzer

Nem said:


> I removed johns editor sig Friday night along with his committee group and access.
> 
> Nothing has changed since then, so please stop jumping to conclusions.


Nick i am asking questions not jumping to conclusions! a conclusion is when you know all of the facts and can then give a biased or non biased oppinion on those facts. i am still in the learning stage at present, and to be honest doubt amongst all of the lies and accusations from both sides the full truth will ever be made public to the membership.


----------



## Wallsendmag

Mighty TT said:


> Having seen this and after 10 continuous membership years maybe it is time to go.........


+1


----------



## rustyintegrale

Gazzer said:


> ...a vote of the members is a good thing, not a bad thing....as it can only benefit the club in the long run...


I think this is what most of the current committee fail to recognise. As I understand it every single one of them has an opportunity to stand to retain their roles (if they want them). I don't believe anybody is after a bloodbath, nobody is on a witch hunt and we all want a club that is run properly within rules agreed by the membership.

I don't understand how those slowing proceedings imagine this will end. The longer it goes on the more suspicious people are becoming. That is not good for anyone as it is compounded by rumour, conjecture and gossip - none of which will solve or alleviate the situation.

An honest, clean and truthful election has as much chance of demonstrating a confidence in current committee members - it is by no means a foregone conclusion that they will all be ousted and I'm not convinced that is necessary anyway. There appears to be evidence of wrong-doing on both sides (although as yet we have not seen or heard all the evidence).

But it isn't the wrong-doing that has already happened, it is the apparent on-going deceit for personal ambition that bothers me the most. FFS the game is up. Retain some dignity and respect by accepting it and agreeing to a fresh election before it's forced upon you.


----------



## rustyintegrale

Wallsendmag said:


> mighTy Tee said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rustyintegrale said:
> 
> 
> 
> And as of last night I am a member.
> 
> 
> 
> Having seen this and after 10 continuous membership years maybe it is time to go......... :roll:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> +1
Click to expand...

Well you and I have never met either. :lol:

Our differences are plain to see that's for sure, but I did try holding out an olive branch to you after my unbanning on the TTF. You didn't like Jae's decision, wouldn't accept it and didn't want to let bygones be bygones either. Clearly you are not one to move on - especially if something doesn't go your way.

On that basis I agree, maybe it is time you bought a one-way ticket and caught the train outta here.


----------



## Gazzer

Wallsendmag said:


> K


editing out the +1..........lol you dopey sod ya got caught out again.


----------



## Wallsendmag

rustyintegrale said:


> Having seen this and after 10 continuous membership years maybe it is time to go.........
> 
> Well you and I have never met either. :lol:
> 
> Our differences are plain to see that's for sure, but I did try holding out an olive branch to you after my unbanning on the TTF. You didn't like Jae's decision, wouldn't accept it and didn't want to let bygones be bygones either. Clearly you are not one to move on - especially if something doesn't go your way.
> 
> On that basis I agree, maybe it is time you bought a one-way ticket and caught the train outta here.


We met at Rockingham but you were a wee bit tipsy and I don't buy train tickets .


----------



## rustyintegrale

Wallsendmag said:


> rustyintegrale said:
> 
> 
> 
> Having seen this and after 10 continuous membership years maybe it is time to go.........
> 
> Well you and I have never met either. :lol:
> 
> Our differences are plain to see that's for sure, but I did try holding out an olive branch to you after my unbanning on the TTF. You didn't like Jae's decision, wouldn't accept it and didn't want to let bygones be bygones either. Clearly you are not one to move on - especially if something doesn't go your way.
> 
> On that basis I agree, maybe it is time you bought a one-way ticket and caught the train outta here.
> 
> 
> 
> We met at Rockingham but you were a wee bit tipsy and I don't buy train tickets .
Click to expand...

Fair enough. I think there were a lot of tipsy people there. I seem to remember the drinking began in the afternoon and it was a long old day/night. I spent too much I know that! :lol:


----------



## Mark Davies

Well it seems we are on the verge of an EGM being called. Before that is done can I urge you to put some thought into what you want to achieve by it. A vote of no confidence? An election for a new committee?

The thing is, without a proper voting system in place how meaningful would such a process be? Have you got a group of candidates ready to stand for the committee positions? If not, who is going to stand and is the whole process just destined to return the same people?

And there are other considerations too. We have EvenTT13 coming up and have a financial commitment to Gaydon. If there is an entirely new committee voted in are those people going to be able to deliver EvenTT? If not, and it's cancelled, what's going to be the financial cost to the Club?

So it's not straightforward.

For these reasons I'd like to avoid an EGM. Primarily I'd ask for time so that the sort of voting system I've proposed (or something similar) can be put in place in time for the AGM thus allowing a meaningful vote with some proper participation. In the meantime we have two particular items of business to deal with. The main one is of course the aforementioned EvenTT13 and I'd suggest to guarantee it actually takes place we probably need to keep certain people involved in the organisation. The second matter is that at least another issue of _absoluTTe_ is due before the AGM, and we currently have no editor. That needs to be rectified one way or another.

Other than that I see no reason why it can't be agreed that the sitting committee is restricted to ordinary daily business. Perhaps the issues of policy that have resulted in so much conflict can be suspended.

To oversee that would it be acceptable that someone not previously involved with this committee be appointed in a caretaker role to keep a lid on any issues arising again while the essential business is concluded? I can think of a number of suitable candidates who would be ideal if they were willing.

I would also suggest John be allowed to rejoin the Club if he wishes to - returning us to the status quo we had before this all blew up.

So that would carry us through a few months to the AGM at which point there can be elections for the committee and votes on a new constitution (which we can be debating and shaping in the meantime). So, directly to the 25 people contemplating calling an EGM - would that be suficient to satisfy your concerns?


----------



## rustyintegrale

Mark Davies said:


> Well it seems we are on the verge of an EGM being called. Before that is done can I urge you to put some thought into what you want to achieve by it. A vote of no confidence? An election for a new committee?
> 
> The thing is, without a proper voting system in place how meaningful would such a process be? Have you got a group of candidates ready to stand for the committee positions? If not, who is going to stand and is the whole process just destined to return the same people?
> 
> And there are other considerations too. We have EvenTT13 coming up and have a financial commitment to Gaydon. If there is an entirely new committee voted in are those people going to be able to deliver EvenTT? If not, and it's cancelled, what's going to be the financial cost to the Club?
> 
> So it's not straightforward.
> 
> For these reasons I'd like to avoid an EGM. Primarily I'd ask for time so that the sort of voting system I've proposed (or something similar) can be put in place in time for the AGM thus allowing a meaningful vote with some proper participation. In the meantime we have two particular items of business to deal with. The main one is of course the aforementioned EvenTT13 and I'd suggest to guarantee it actually takes place we probably need to keep certain people involved in the organisation. The second matter is that at least another issue of _absoluTTe_ is due before the AGM, and we currently have no editor. That needs to be rectified one way or another.
> 
> Other than that I see no reason why it can't be agreed that the sitting committee is restricted to ordinary daily business. Perhaps the issues of policy that have resulted in so much conflict can be suspended.
> 
> To oversee that would it be acceptable that someone not previously involved with this committee be appointed in a caretaker role to keep a lid on any issues arising again while the essential business is concluded? I can think of a number of suitable candidates who would be ideal if they were willing.
> 
> I would also suggest John be allowed to rejoin the Club if he wishes to - returning us to the status quo we had before this all blew up.
> 
> So that would carry us through a few months to the AGM at which point there can be elections for the committee and votes on a new constitution (which we can be debating and shaping in the meantime). So, directly to the 25 people contemplating calling an EGM - would that be suficient to satisfy your concerns?


Who are the 25 Mark?


----------



## Nem

Mark, without Jumping the gun as I know a couple of committee members have not yet commented or had time to comment on the statement we are drafting, but I think we are definitely thinking down the same lines.

Particularly about the committee being removed in part of it's entirety, would in my personal opinion cause more issues and upheaval than we are already in.

Everyone, if you can please bear with us for a day or two we will have this statement presented to all members by way of announcements on here and the members area, the TTOC homepage and also via email to all members over the weekend.


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## Gazzer

i am one of them Rich.........but that was obvious from my posts.

Mark, once again you post in such a reasonable fashion to point out the facts and to protect the big upcoming events and the club itself!!! and i agree with you 100% on everything you say bud.
but the 25 who have the right to call an egm, are members that are bloody pee'd off with the still arrogant stance part of the committee are taking m8!!!

1, john booted out...........numerous calls for a re-instatment to the club and as editor......nick wont respond to members pleas and demands for this.

2, nick does his my story piece........looks great and maybe it is straight from the heart, however it states several times how unreasonable john was!!!! yet many of us have had nothing but good things too say about john that have met or spoken to him personally. so nicks piece is sooooooooooo undemocratic a post purely and simply for not allowing the ONLY injured party in this (john) to the right to reply????

3, where are the other committee members posts in all of this? Abe & Toot.........apparently they voted against john also and yet not one word??? something just smells wrong tbh.

so Mark, in my honest opinion i will do my vote for an egm....just because i can tbh. now if Nick did what a good few (more learned than i) members have asked it would be a different story. this will only ever drag on and on until Nick realises he has acted alone and not in the interest of the club!!!


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## Gazzer

Nem said:


> Mark, without Jumping the gun as I know a couple of committee members have not yet commented or had time to comment on the statement we are drafting, but I think we are definitely thinking down the same lines.
> 
> Particularly about the committee being removed in part of it's entirety, would in my personal opinion cause more issues and upheaval than we are already in.
> 
> Everyone, if you can please bear with us for a day or two we will have this statement presented to all members by way of announcements on here and the members area, the TTOC homepage and also via email to all members over the weekend.


Nick, please please don't take it personal regarding the 25 members that may call for an egm........you would be very suprised at some of the names in all honesty!!!
i plead with you to revert *YOUR* stance not the memberships wishes and re-instate John until the agm with his complete job roll back as was.......and let's get back to business, while Mark works his magic in helping to forge a new way to help the committee for the future.


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## jamman

Gaz, Please let the committee draft its proposal and let everyone read it before going off on one.


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## TT K8

jamman said:


> Gaz, Please let the committee draft its proposal and let everyone read it before going off on one.


+1. We've waited this long, and it's been promised this weekend.

Just a thought though, has anyone actually asked John if he would want back in???


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## Gazzer

jamman said:


> Gaz, Please let the committee draft its proposal and let everyone read it before going off on one.


James, i'm not going off on one bud.......honest m8 (stone cold sober) i just want Johns right to respond given back.


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## brittan

Gazzer, naturally John will have seen Nick's "my side of the story" post even without access to the TTOC forum and of course he can reply on here, there's enough threads running!

All the recent discussion is about what is right for the club membership so I urge you to consider the bigger picture about how the club might continue to function in the short term up to the AGM.
Let's see the statement and consider any call for an EGM once that statement has been discussed.


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## Gazzer

brittan said:


> Gazzer, naturally John will have seen Nick's "my side of the story" post even without access to the TTOC forum and of course he can reply on here, there's enough threads running!
> 
> All the recent discussion is about what is right for the club membership so I urge you to consider the bigger picture about how the club might continue to function in the short term up to the AGM.
> Let's see the statement and consider any call for an EGM once that statement has been discussed.


not my call bud i am only one of 25 as you are aware, and i want no part in ruining the club or hurting it......but this so called statement is way overdue and many are frustrated.


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## jamman

Gazzer said:


> brittan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gazzer, naturally John will have seen Nick's "my side of the story" post even without access to the TTOC forum and of course he can reply on here, there's enough threads running!
> 
> All the recent discussion is about what is right for the club membership so I urge you to consider the bigger picture about how the club might continue to function in the short term up to the AGM.
> Let's see the statement and consider any call for an EGM once that statement has been discussed.
> 
> 
> 
> not my call bud i am only one of 25 as you are aware, and i want no part in ruining the club or hurting it......but this so called statement is way overdue and many are frustrated.
Click to expand...

It's not way overdue at all you have to give these things time.

Gaz you can speak for yourself and NO ONE ELSE if anyone is frustrated they can come on here and post.


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## Gazzer

jamman said:


> Gazzer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> brittan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gazzer, naturally John will have seen Nick's "my side of the story" post even without access to the TTOC forum and of course he can reply on here, there's enough threads running!
> 
> All the recent discussion is about what is right for the club membership so I urge you to consider the bigger picture about how the club might continue to function in the short term up to the AGM.
> Let's see the statement and consider any call for an EGM once that statement has been discussed.
> 
> 
> 
> not my call bud i am only one of 25 as you are aware, and i want no part in ruining the club or hurting it......but this so called statement is way overdue and many are frustrated.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's not way overdue at all you have to give these things time.
> 
> Gaz you can speak for yourself and NO ONE ELSE if anyone is frustrated they can come on here and post.
Click to expand...

point taken James brittan...........


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## paulc1

We need to very careful here , its all very well and good voting for change , but if we vote out the committee who is going replace them ?, the commitee are believe it or not human beings and are taking a lot of abuse at the moment for a job they do for free just to help you make the most of your TT , its bad enough taking shit in your job when you get paid for it let alone when you do something for free just to help others 
If change happens and we lose the commitee , who is going to manage the shop , sort all the memberships , manage the finances , arrange the national event , who is prepared to give the hours needed after work to do this for the club , bear this in mind now we are at this point 
Be careful what you wish for


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## Skipton01

Nem said:


> I removed johns editor sig Friday night along with his committee group and access.


Judge, jury & executioner all rolled into one. Perhaps Dredd would be more appropriate a username?

I do think Mark is talking sense about regaining the status quo, getting through EvenTT13 and then taking the constitutional steps needed to resolve this dysfunctional committee.

Perhaps the 25 names should still call for an EGM, but the sole proposal would be to adjourn the business of the EGM until after EvenTT (assuming that TTOC constitution makes it mandatory to hold any EGM within a set period, of 28 days for example)?

I look forward to a statement from 'the committee' over the weekend. I assume it'll also detail just exactly which committee members were behind the statement?


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## KammyTT

paulc1 said:


> Hev said:
> 
> 
> 
> jamman ~ I've just noticed your TTOC sig strip.......that is not really being helpful :?
> 
> Hev x
> 
> 
> 
> That sort of thing part of the problem not the solution , that's keyboard warriors for you
Click to expand...

I'm on my iphone so can't see what's going on


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## jamman

I dared to put GET A GRIP in my TTOC banner and a couple of "members" threw their toys out the cot :lol: :lol:


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## KammyTT

jamman said:


> I dared to put GET A GRIP in my TTOC banner and a couple of "members" threw their toys out the cot :lol: :lol:


Good man!!!


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## mighTy Tee

Gazza, as you know I dont see the point of an EGM so close to the AGM and fear your intentions will ultimately do more harm than good to the TTOC. The initial damage has been done (and can not be undone), but now it appears a minority of 25 members are moving in with the wrecking ball to finish the job (club) off.

By all means lets a an (Exra-ordinary) AGM at HMC/Gaydon and lets use the time leading up to this meeting to concentrate on how best to make sure every TTOC member can have a fair and democratic vote at the AGM and how the elected 2013/14 committee should move the club forward, heal wounds and keep in touch with the wishes of the majority of the membership.


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## jamman

mighTy Tee said:


> Gazza, as you know I dont see the point of an EGM so close to the AGM and fear your intentions will ultimately do more harm than good to the TTOC. The initial damage has been done (and can not be undone), but now it appears a minority of 25 members are moving in with the wrecking ball to finish the job (club) off.


You are being very negative there Rich I'm sure the above statement couldn't be further from the truth, members just want the club run correctly and fairly. 



mighTy Tee said:


> By all means lets a an (Exra-ordinary) AGM at HMC/Gaydon and lets use the time leading up to this meeting to concentrate on how best to make sure every TTOC member can have a fair and democratic vote at the AGM and how the elected 2013/14 committee should move the club forward, heal wounds and keep in touch with the wishes of the majority of the membership.


I couldn't agree more and that really is all that needs to happen or be said on the matter


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## Gazzer

mighTy Tee said:


> Gazza, as you know I dont see the point of an EGM so close to the AGM and fear your intentions will ultimately do more harm than good to the TTOC. The initial damage has been done (and can not be undone), but now it appears a minority of 25 members are moving in with the wrecking ball to finish the job (club) off.
> 
> By all means lets a an (Exra-ordinary) AGM at HMC/Gaydon and lets use the time leading up to this meeting to concentrate on how best to make sure every TTOC member can have a fair and democratic vote at the AGM and how the elected 2013/14 committee should move the club forward, heal wounds and keep in touch with the wishes of the majority of the membership.


said i wouldnt post until the statement had come out.......Richard you have made me respond tbh bud.
my intentions? i am meerly one of those miffed off and not even the starter in this course of action.........you give me too much credit tbh lol

yes the damage has been done! (by our chairman) and it can be undone very easily.........if he heeded the call of those that have posted on here and in the members only forum to back off and re-instate john unmtil the agm comes around.

wrecking ball??? oh come on Richard i didnt order one for this contract nick did in his unconstitutional actions.....

defending......can i ask as you do not mention John being evicted illegally from the comittee?


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## jamman

Nice to see you took notice of what many asked of you Gaz 

I wont be posting again until the statement is out try and do the same PLEASE


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## Gazzer

Skipton01 said:


> Nem said:
> 
> 
> 
> I removed johns editor sig Friday night along with his committee group and access.
> 
> 
> 
> Judge, jury & executioner all rolled into one. Perhaps Dredd would be more appropriate a username?
> 
> I do think Mark is talking sense about regaining the status quo, getting through EvenTT13 and then taking the constitutional steps needed to resolve this dysfunctional committee.
> 
> Perhaps the 25 names should still call for an EGM, but the sole proposal would be to adjourn the business of the EGM until after EvenTT (assuming that TTOC constitution makes it mandatory to hold any EGM within a set period, of 28 days for example)?
> 
> I look forward to a statement from 'the committee' over the weekend. I assume it'll also detail just exactly which committee members were behind the statement?
Click to expand...

good post skipton.............are you marks log lost brother by any chance lol. now i have been awakened to post again i can only say that if nicks statement is as personal (one sided) then it should be a good read. (will it be in fiction fact or comedy section)


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## Gazzer

jamman said:


> Nice to see you took notice of what many asked of you Gaz
> 
> I wont be posting again until the statement is out try and do the same PLEASE


pm sent...........


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## jamman

People stop texting and PMing asking me to see if I can get Gaz to stop posting constantly I can't I've tried and failed.

Gaz I don't want to fall out with you but FFS wait for the [email protected] statement to come out.

I'm off for a week and I hope and pray this mess is sorted when I return. 

I will not read or respond to PMs or texts about this matter until I return.


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## R6B TT

One of the major non-member posters on these threads had previously announced his intentions to set up a rival club back in 2009 I think. What happened to Klub-TT ?


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## rustyintegrale

R6B TT said:


> One of the major non-member posters on these threads had previously announced his intentions to set up a rival club back in 2009 I think. What happened to Klub-TT ?


It was long before 2009.

In some small way it forced the TTOC and the TTF to start working together when prior to that there was a significant separation between the two.

I'm flattered you remember the name Rob, but to then proceed with an alternative club was somewhat futile because the intention was to do exactly what the TTOC ended up doing.

Read into that what you will.


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## LPL

Same old argument arises from time to time where clubs and societies are concerned. People are too busy generally to get involved in things, those that do will inevitably find themselves in a "hot" seat on the committee. If members don't like the decisions of the organising committee they vote them out next time [if they're interested], if they cant be bothered or like the decision making the committee remains the same. Assuming committee members are limited to the length of time they serve then change is inevitable. Members of any organisation get the management they are comfortable with or campaign to change it, that's democracy!

Elongated processes for democratic reasons are all well and good, however, it does take a long time to get things done and still doesn't mean you get good decisions.


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