# A word of warning...



## Hark (Aug 23, 2007)

I have seen two threads over the last week where people seem to have been ripped off by forum members.

I recently bought some wheels which were far from how they were described and have ended up hundreds of pounds out of pocket. I have started small claims proceedings this week.

I wonder if people should need a minimum number of posts before posting a for sale thread? 
I feel that the chap who sold me the wheels, simply came to decieve and rip someone off.


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## Eiphos_1830 (May 27, 2009)

I totally agree - ive seen too many forum newbees posting adverts and only having 2 or 3 posts to their name

I aswell think sum form of feedback is needed just like ebay - only in the form of so many posts allows people to sell items


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## edgar (Jun 24, 2009)

same here plus and what about having to be a member of the site for at least 6 months cos anybody can knock up a post count in a very short space of time


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## Eiphos_1830 (May 27, 2009)

Yer thats a good idea - a minimum of 6 months could be really harsh and TTOC members only lol


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## Teighto (Aug 10, 2008)

yeah im on a number of forum's and they have policy's of posts over 100 or been on the forum for over a 1 month.

some of them also require that you use verfied payments like paypal etc so then if something does go wrong you can claim that way


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## Jamo8 (Apr 23, 2009)

Hark
Thats shocking mate whats the matter with these people Name and shame the bar-steward incase it's not a one off :x

Jamo


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## ViperOneZero (Sep 4, 2008)

you get a lot of cross vag forum sales on here.. naturally a link on their home forum to prove their credentials wouldn't go a miss.

sales on forums are not regulated, ebay is. Deals on a forum are usually carried out in good faith. should a buyer be conned or ripped off then a moderator should be informed of this.

appropriate actions should be: offender given a week to satisfactorily explain what has gone on, then the moderator adjudicates whether to impose a ban on the seller.

it is up to the buyer whether legal action / police action should be imposed on the seller.


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## Teighto (Aug 10, 2008)

yeah a part of the forum where you can leave feedback for a forum member would be good - but it would have to be fact based to leave a negative comment !

Hark - Good luck with your claim mate their are so many people just out to get what they want and not think of how others are going to feel when they get sh**ted on


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## TTQ2K2 (Jun 25, 2009)

Perhaps this is an area where TTOC and TTF should part ways. Maybe classified postings should be a TTOC benefit only. It's that way on the US's largest, most revered, car owners club: PCA. And while were at it, digitize all or parts (technical perhaps) of AbsoluTTe and make that a TTOC member benefit too.

cheers.


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## Tim G (Feb 16, 2005)

Although I am gutted for Hark for the hassel he's had with the wheels (I briefly considered buying them myself), I don't agree that people should need a minimum number of posts/ be a member for a period of time to use the classifieds.

Some classified posters are from other VAG forums (I used to post in the classifieds on here years before I had the TT) due to the nature of many parts fitting other VAG models. They dont have much to say about the TT, but might have some parts (often wheels :roll: ) and spacers etc that are of interest to us lot on here.

When you look at the bigger picture, the majority of sales go through without issue. There are only a handful of sales that present a problem, as on any forum.

SeatCupra.net have a policy of so many posts before you can use the classifieds. Im never gonna post on there reguarly, but I'm sure some of the stuff I sell would be off interest to those guys on there. They never get to see it though as I can't post.

At the end of the day, making people get a post count up/waiting a few months wont stop them from making a dodgy sale later on, and it will just mean we have less items to view in the classifieds.

Just my 2p.


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## Wak (May 6, 2002)

Minimum posts and forum reputation may seem like a good way of vetting but I have seen over the years many people let down, one of them quite badly by some you wouldnt have believed would do it.

These are a few incidents but still something that you wouldnt expect from the members posts and rep.

Sadly its only a few bad eggs that can bring a you down to a level of caution over an otherwise great bunch of honest people.


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## jutty (Aug 28, 2006)

i saw the same wheels that Hark bought and had conversations with the guy selling them over the phone.....seemed a nice chap but he certainly wanted shot of the wheels quite quickly in fact :?


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## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

I know I'm gonna get flamed by Kev for suggesting this :lol: but surely this is a good reason for allowing reply posts in the Marketplace? That way you can gauge how genuine and honest the sale is? :roll:

Or maybe we should introduce 'feedback' like eBay so that you get a rating displayed under your avatar when a sale/purchase has been completed? [smiley=book2.gif]

Cheers

rich


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## 26ash_tt (Jul 16, 2008)

i think i agree with tim g. having minimum posts or time joined will close up the classifieds quite a bit and i bet a good few of the dodgy traders have been on long enough not to be affected by this anyway.

disapointed for hark though you'd like to think the other members of the site would be as genuine as yourself but thats obviously never going to be the case


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## Daz8n (Sep 22, 2009)

Name and shame!!!


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## ecko2702 (Jan 26, 2009)

rustyintegrale said:


> I know I'm gonna get flamed by Kev for suggesting this :lol: but surely this is a good reason for allowing reply posts in the Marketplace? That way you can gauge how genuine and honest the sale is? :roll:
> 
> Or maybe we should introduce 'feedback' like eBay so that you get a rating displayed under your avatar when a sale/purchase has been completed? [smiley=book2.gif]
> 
> ...


What he said


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## les (Jul 24, 2006)

I am a member of another forum (nothing to do with cars) This is their rules etc which work very well and keep the fraudsters to a minimum. BTW I have put *** whenever the forums name is mentioned.

*** Equipment Sales Rules

This forum is provided as a privilege for *** members to buy, sell or swap surplus equipment.

1. Sellers need to have been a member for 30 days and have contributed to *** by making 50 posts in *** forums before they can advertise items for sale.

2. No commercial sellers. At the discretion of ***s owner or a moderator these will be removed. The owner's decision is final.

3. All negotiations and questions must be posted on the sales thread and NOT by PM. Communications may only be taken to PM once the sale and price has been agreed upon on the open forum and payment/collection details need to be given. The agreement of the time and date of collection or postage, or confirmation that items have been posted should also be posted in the thread.

4. Sales must include a photograph of the item and it must be priced, 'open to offers' or 'best price secures' will not be allowed.

5. All equipment sales must complete the sales form at the start of new sales threads. The sales form is automatically generated when you start a new thread in the sales forums. Links to other selling sites is not permitted and will be removed.

6. Refrain from commenting unless you are interested in more details or are interested in buying. If you suspect any foul play, please use the report button and the moderating team will deal with all reports.

7. 'Gauging interest' threads will be removed.

8. Disputes must be conducted away from the public areas, either by PM or email.

Any threads or posts which do not comply with these rules are likely to be removed

After sales feedback on each transaction is encouraged. Please take the time to post a comment in the feedback forum.

We understand that this format requires time to fill out and digital photos. However, we believe that this will help offer more protection to both buyers and sellers, and thus is a benefit to all members.

Liability

*** can not be held responsible for other users' actions or inactions and will not become involved in any disputes between buyers and sellers other than to administer the rules of the forum. *** does not review user's listings and are not party to the actual transactions between buyers and sellers. You will not hold *** responsible for the actions or inactions of buyers or sellers involved in transactions (whether such transactions are carried out on or off ***) or for ensuring that they actually complete transactions. *** has no control over, do not guarantee, and are not responsible for:
· the quality, safety or legality of items advertised; 
· the truth or accuracy of listings; 
· the ability of sellers to sell items; 
· the ability of buyers to pay for items; or
· whether a buyer or seller will actually complete a transaction. The buyer and seller accept sole responsibility for the legality of their actions under law.

By posting on this forum you are deemed to have agreed with and accepted the rules set out above. 
__________________

Now that's been amended and updated over the years and has reduced bogus sellers joining to rip members off. I am not saying all the rules stated above need to be implemented here but I would suggest some form of control (as in stiffer rules) are needed to reduce bogus sellers and to help protect not just sellers and buyers to protect the TTF.


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## kmpowell (May 6, 2002)

rustyintegrale said:


> but surely this is a good reason for allowing reply posts in the Marketplace? That way you can gauge how genuine and honest the sale is? :roll:


Remind me again how having the ability to reply to threads would have prevented these two recent incidents? Do you have some sort of magical mind reading powers that look into the future...?

A minimum post count is certainly being re-considered, however, we have had incidents in the past where established members have ripped off fellow members. No method is 100% fool proof and all the rules in the world will not make one iota of difference. The current rule set is very strict, without adding new ones. People simply refuse to read the rules, and it's a daily occurrence I where mods have to edit adverts.

The rules on this forum couldn't be simpler nor clearer.


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## les (Jul 24, 2006)

kmpowell said:


> The rules on this forum couldn't be simpler nor clearer.


 You missed off "and easily got round/avoided/abused". You are right nothing can be 100% certain to prevent rips offs etc but by introducing a minimum number of post and or time as a member on here you would be reducing the possibility and also the that of the spammers. I haven't seen a spammer for god knows how long on the forum I lifted the rules about selling. If you can minimize fraud/ rip offs and spammers then why not?


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## 007TT (Mar 20, 2007)

I've been dicked by 4 forum members ! one used to be a trader on here, items were damaged or had wear etc when they described them as new, IMO they should be banned for life for deceiving people.


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## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

kmpowell said:


> Do you have some sort of magical mind reading powers that look into the future...?


I wish mate, I wish... :lol:

Consider if you will when you first meet someone, you make an assessment from first appearance right? Then you have a chat and delve deeper. From that you decide if you can proceed further in the relationship and then you make a decision...

Same with any kind of purchase. You question and demand answers before committing. It's about research and knowledge and like it or not other people's opinions help that process... [smiley=book2.gif]

Cheers

rich


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## kmpowell (May 6, 2002)

007TT said:


> IMO they should be banned for life for deceiving people.


Errrrrr, they are - as rule 6 states:

6. Anybody found to have ripped off/conned a ******** member will have all access to the forum blocked. Full details will also be passed onto the Police/Solicitors if required by law.

Another example of somebody not reading the rules, maybe? :wink:


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## caney (Feb 5, 2004)

007TT said:


> I've been dicked by 4 forum members !


say what? :lol:


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## Hark (Aug 23, 2007)

kmpowell said:


> 007TT said:
> 
> 
> > IMO they should be banned for life for deceiving people.
> ...


So Kev, surely the guy I bought them off should be banned? I'm not sure he'll give a toss as he has like 7 posts, but it would stop him doing it again?

As Jutty said, he seemed like a nice, stand up chap. Really can't judge a book by its cover.


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## kmpowell (May 6, 2002)

Hark said:


> So Kev, surely the guy I bought them off should be banned? I'm not sure he'll give a toss as he has like 7 posts, but it would stop him doing it again?


Yes he will be - have you told an admin his username and given them details etc?


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## CamV6 (Oct 26, 2003)

Also, this is a yet another reason why it should be mandatory that sellers post a pics of the actual items(s) themselves with some sort of proof i.e. a bit of paper witht their forumname and date in the pic.

Ok, it wont stop people who want to rip others off and you can still not show a multitude of sins in pics but its a start at least


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## CamV6 (Oct 26, 2003)

les said:


> I am a member of another forum (nothing to do with cars) This is their rules etc which work very well and keep the fraudsters to a minimum. BTW I have put *** whenever the forums name is mentioned.
> 
> *** Equipment Sales Rules
> 
> ...


Les, I totally agree with all the above. I've put up the rules from dteailingworld.com a few times here but its never been adopted. Yet on that site one doesnt see such problems (typically) as Hark and others have had.

One other thing......

Minimum posts for sellers isnt really that helpful. Ok, it'll stop the casual fraudster but otherwise it just meansd inane and pointless posts for a while from people who just want to use and abuse the f/s section.

IMO, the f/s section should be by subscription. £5 per year or £30 for permanent access. Proceeds go toward forum maintenance/TTOC perhaps?


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## Mark Davies (Apr 10, 2007)

Following on from what Tim and Wak have said, numbers of posts or lack of them are no indicator of how a deal will go through. I've had several dealings here, most of which have gone through very well, however one that didn't was a transaction with a _very_ well established member. What they sent me was not what I was expecting to get (which I'm sure they were well aware of at the time we were making the deal) and their response was just 'tough'. So having been here for a while is no guarantee of honesty.

Likewise just because someone has come here specifically just to try and sell something doesn't mean they are a crook, and what they have got to sell may be something someone here desperately needs, so it would be a shame to bar them from the Marketplace unnecessarily.

It's simple - you pay your money and you take your chance. When someone advertisies something their post count is displayed so you can see whether they have been here for a while or not. You decide what you want to make of that. There's nothing the Forum can do to protect a transaction, other than to bar a member when there is a report of something going wrong, but then if they are intent on ripping people off they'll just come back with a different name and IP address anyway.

Ultimately we are all adults. We're big enough to make our own decisions and take our own risks. We don't need the Forum to nanny us.


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## CamV6 (Oct 26, 2003)

agreed, but the forum can assist with trying to weed out the dishonest by making it a little more trouble for them.

I too had a bad experience buying a phone off someone here a couple of years back which didnt work properly but sold as perfect. I got the same brush off from the seller who was a well established member. I was very very angry bt little I could do.

Onle thing we can do as buyers is pay by paypal as it does give some albeit limited protection/assistance


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## V6RUL (May 28, 2009)

I have had no such problem moving my old alloys on as i gave them away FOC to a Forum member so i dont expect any complaints
Steve


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## Hark (Aug 23, 2007)

kmpowell said:


> Hark said:
> 
> 
> > So Kev, surely the guy I bought them off should be banned? I'm not sure he'll give a toss as he has like 7 posts, but it would stop him doing it again?
> ...


Thought I gave it to you and Jae. Who do I need to send it to?


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## kmpowell (May 6, 2002)

Hark said:


> kmpowell said:
> 
> 
> > Hark said:
> ...


The last I saw was a PM from Jae (on the 4th Dec) asking you to let us know how you eventually got on with your situation. If there is no response from the seller then we will take action as soon as you have told us that the matter is now in the hands of the authorities.


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## Hark (Aug 23, 2007)

You have a pm Kev.


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## TT_Tesh (Feb 22, 2009)

Sounds harsh but I was one of the 2 people Hark touched on in his initial posting (no1 of this thread) and it is unfortunate. Whilst it did all come good in the end it wasted several hours of my time throughout the month and I got my refund.

I think we need to split the For Sale into potentially two parts:

1) TT Related - Only new threads allowed by those who have been a member for 3 months or more. 
2) Non TT Related (I.E Wheels and other stuff like Nintendo Wii's etc) - Should be open to all regardless of no. of posts

Until it happens to you - you wont understand. Sounds harsh but its true.

[smiley=book2.gif]


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## Hark (Aug 23, 2007)

Totally agree as I said it was pointless until it has happened to me. :roll:

Thing is many people are right about the minimum post thing. I only post on seatcupra on the tuning bit or the for sale.

Such a shame a few people spoil it, but that's life, world is full of wa****s ready to mess up your day,


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## TT_Tesh (Feb 22, 2009)

Def agree with that Hark.

I will now only consider purchases from fellow TTOC members as the people who are part of the TTOC have given their details to the mods when signing up hence more protection. Anyone who has been around for 5 years and has 300 posts can also rip you off or take you money for weeks and then suddenly give it back so just shows something needs to be done..

[smiley=book2.gif]


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## elrao (Apr 19, 2005)

I'm not a TTOC member used to be 5 years ago, but never saw any benefit from the subscripton other than the mag), but have sold thousands of £s worth on here. Now I am selling my TT I also have no need, however have lots of stuff for sale and have always been good to my word...Hark can vouch for me, he's bought most of it!!

I think the only way is a feedback loop, to help judge character but past transctions is no guarantee of future ones. I got some 'worse than expected' kit (£250) from a forum member who made a living out of it (not Charlie!), just replied saying that in his opinion it was in good condition....good means different things to different people. Since then I follow these guidelines when buying and try to provide the same to possible buyers.

Ask lots of questions
Get lots of photos
Collect if possible and pay cash
Check what they have sold before and contact the buyer by PM (can't do this now as you can't see who has bought stuff)

I think replies in the Mkt place are a good thing as you can:
Ask questions in the public domain, providing visibility (hence pressure) to have things resolved
See if something has been sold
See who has bought things in the past and contact for references
Post comments to say "bought from xxx before, good chap"


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