# 996 and M3 prices



## Dubcat (Jun 10, 2002)

Just wonder what peoples opinions are.

How soon after the release of the new 997 version of the 911 will the 996 prices bottom out?

Also, given that BMW are going to release a new shape 3 series soon, how soon after it's launch will the current M3 prices bottom out? Remember, the new shape M3 won't actually be out for a year or two after the regular cars are launched.

Dubcat


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## Loz180 (Sep 20, 2004)

996 prices are already wayning as the "big car syndrome" is being promoted by the media at the moment. Part of the "slow the economy down, please" edict from Mr Brown. My M3 driving mate is not worried about prices though as its actually harder now to get hold of an M3 convertible in top spec than it is a 911. And as you say, couple of years before the replacement. NEW M5 though... that is gonna steal some M3 customers, no doubt!


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## jonno (May 7, 2002)

Well some new M5s are about - seen shots from Munich and the US and it looks a beast :twisted:

I suspect that M3 used prices will stay firmish for a while yet - with a good 12 + months till new one gets released.


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

M3s are plentiful and ship in bigger numbers than 996s. Simple supply and demand basics will make the 996 hold on to more of it's value for longer.

Check out e30, e36 and e46 M3 prices over time. Then do same with 911, thru 993 and 996. 993 prices are still good even though the car has since passed through two evolutions.

It's a no brainer - Porsche will retain more value.


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## jam (May 8, 2002)

Loz180 said:


> NEW M5 though... that is gonna steal some M3 customers, no doubt!


Erm, I think the M5's are gonna retail at about Â£65k......how will a car that is Â£20/25k above the price of the M3 steal it's customers?!


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

jam said:


> Loz180 said:
> 
> 
> > NEW M5 though... that is gonna steal some M3 customers, no doubt!
> ...


Solid logic Jam.


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## raven (May 7, 2002)

Agree with Garyc - 911s still seem to retain 70% of their value after 3 years which is pretty much unique for a car that sells that many. The 993s keep their value pretty well even now, some would say more so than the 996.


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## Monique (Jun 11, 2002)

raven said:


> Agree with Garyc - 911s still seem to retain 70% of their value after 3 years which is pretty much unique for a car that sells that many. The 993s keep their value pretty well even now, some would say more so than the 996.


Completely agree with Raven.

When I was looking for a HP sport car, I considered the 996 GT3 and a 993 RS.

The 993 is more raw and appeals more to the unsavory side of my character, so it was my choice. It is also aircooled and IMO, more a real Porsche. Prices were in the same range

I doubt the 996 will keep its value as well as a 993... especially with the costs associated with premature engine self destructions often seen on Boxsters and 996's. Porsche still have not solved the problem which dates from '98... :x


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## Jac-in-a-Box (Nov 9, 2002)

> I doubt the 996 will keep its value as well as a 993... especially with the costs associated with premature engine self destructions often seen on Boxsters and 996's. Porsche still have not solved the problem which dates from '98...


Couldn't agree more, 993 prices are holding amazingly well in relation to the 996.
Been looking around myself, but perhaps a little too "raw" for me.

The engine failure rate is higher than many people believe (or the dealers will have you believe) in the 996 and Boxsters. Have seen pictures of blown engines stacked up at the backs of Porsche dealers.
More worryingly, the same engine is being used in the replacement Boxster and new 997....same engies with a raised output = higher probability of failure? 
Fine while you are under the manufacturers warranty, otherwise budget on an additional Â£700+ in "running costs" per year to continue with a decent level of protection.

Since I blew my engine I have seen 5 reported engine failures on various forums

Nice little "win win" situation for Porsche and the dealers ....and no one is holding their breath waiting for a resolution to the problem that Porsche refuses to accept exists

Jackie x


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## gazandjan (Sep 8, 2003)

This link will show you how bad - Boxster and 911 are.

http://www.porsche-1.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=841


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## Monique (Jun 11, 2002)

[/quote]Couldn't agree more, 993 prices are holding amazingly well in relation to the 996.
Been looking around myself, but perhaps a little too "raw" for me.

Jackie x[/quote]

Try one out... you will be amazed at the smile it will bring on your face. Totally different experience than TTRQ but then the RS is the hooligan of the bunch.

It is an absolutely glorious vehicle and as the last of the aircooled Porkers might be depreciation free from here forward.

BTW, was at my P stealer in Germany recently and there were 4 996/986 in pieces awaiting either RMS or complete engines. Porsche is dodging...


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## jam (May 8, 2002)

gazandjan said:


> This link will show you how bad - Boxster and 911 are.
> 
> http://www.porsche-1.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=841


Would if we didn't have to have a login.

How come you think the Boxser an 911 are so bad? Aren't they the last 2 cars you have owned?

Just curious

Cheers

James


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## gazandjan (Sep 8, 2003)

It was in answer to Jackie engine problems and her saying they is a ongoing problem with the 996 and boxster.

The link shows the J D POWER survey in the US - were the boxster comes first and the 996 comes secored









Attached as you can see


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## Jac-in-a-Box (Nov 9, 2002)

Hmm!

I've read of 5 self destructing 911 / Boxster engines in the last couple of months on the various Porsche forums.
Big issue going on with some members of the the PCGB and Porsche over these failures.

I'm not having a pop at Porsche's...I love mine and will have another.
Just that there seems to be a fairly high attrition rate on the water cooled engines only.
Nor I am trying put others off owning a Porsche, it's better to have a full knowledge of what possible problems may be experienced....a wrecked engine will cost around Â£12 -15k to replace - bit of a bummer if you don't have the security of a Porsche warranty.

Porsches "legendary" reliability is somewhat suspect on the 996's and 986's....not just my opinion but shared by many others - but doesn't stop me enjoying the cars!

Jackie x


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## gazandjan (Sep 8, 2003)

Well i would say 5 is not that bad when you look at all the Boxster and 996 on the roads at the moment.

Internet is a great place to get a point across and make a moutain out of a mole hill.

They are 2 guys at PCGB who are fighting with Porsche about engine problems and PCGB are struggling to get in writting a firm number about RMS problems with Boxsters.

Iam not standing up for Porsche Just stateing some facts - If they was a massive problem we would be buying old DB7 etc.

Concerning the 993 you will start to see a drop in price on this model soon, as when a new 911 comes out the out going version becomes vogue and if you look around you notice a growing amount of 993 up for sale. That car had problem too, but it looks like everyone forgotten about that


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## Jac-in-a-Box (Nov 9, 2002)

> Well i would say 5 is not that bad when you look at all the Boxster and 996 on the roads at the moment.
> 
> Internet is a great place to get a point across and make a moutain out of a mole hill.
> 
> ...


Sorry, but 5 is a large number. 
What proportion of owners belong to a forum (whatever marque) - a very small proportion I would suggest. Extrapolate the 5 failures I've mentioned to include all Boxsters / 996's (non forum users) I would reckon you will have an unhealthy number of broken engines!

In the 3 years or so I've been using the TT forum I can only recall a couple of members needing new TT engines...if that.

"Mountains out of molehills" LOL!...I'm not making any "mountains" - simply relating what I've unearthed from several Porsche forums.
While I hope you don't have the misfortune to suffer a major engine failure, especially if out of warranty... would you consider the cost of a new engine to be a "molehill" if you had to pay?...I think not!

993 prices softening? Again I disagree, good 993's are still selling at a premium. They didn't exactly soften when the 996 replaced it, I don't see why the introduction of the 997 will have any major impact.
The 993 is regarding by many as THE Porsche to have, last of the air cooled Porsches etc, etc.

I don't think the PCGB has struggled to get numbers on RMS failures for Boxsters, IIRC they're just about to extend the survey to include 996 owners. 
Discussions are taking place between PCGB Porsche (UK and Germany) on how to help owners suffering from repeated failures.


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## gazandjan (Sep 8, 2003)

quote from RMS thread

"have received updates from a handful of members, but need many more case studies. I plan to re-contact many of the members who replied to the RMS Survey, and do a follow up

Now starting to cut and paste members experience from the various threads into a "book". Lots of fun. "

Posted by Nic Doczi PCGB Boxster Register assistant

The proportion of owners that drive a 996 and boxster you will find will be members of internet forums (rennie list, piston heads, etc) from all around the world. This will give you a good idea of how many "blown" engines they are and i say 5 is not bad, taking into account when you down shift they is no rev limit and therfore if you take the car on a track you can blow a engine (this dose not happen when going up a gear and the rev limt stop its) this may not happen in all cases, but on the internet you only here one side of a story.

Plus if it was so bad, how come they came 1st and 2nd in US Survey ???

993 prices some 8 years ago were poor when the 996 came out, however they start inprove and the "old gaurd" did not like the sound and power of the early 996, this was improved with the face lift car of 2002.

Yes it is classed as a proper Prosche, however who in 2 years time is going to pay good money for 993 with late 80`s interior and 120k on the clock. They will always be a perium for good cars (very good cars) but has time goes on people view change.

Take a look at 911 - porsche mag for October and you will see in that Chris Horton the editor is changing his view on the 996.

Back to the porsche warrenty its Â£725 - For people who pay Â£40k plus for a car thats not bad . If you had a 993 it would be the price of the extra servicing cost :lol: (only joking)

My view if it was that bad the yanks would be up in arms.

Moutains out of mole hills


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## Monique (Jun 11, 2002)

gazandjan said:


> ...Yes it is classed as a proper Prosche, however who in 2 years time is going to pay good money for 993 with late 80`s interior and 120k on the clock. They will always be a perium for good cars (very good cars) but has time goes on people view change....


I disagree with your view for the following:
1. The 993 is the last and best "classic" Porsche.
2. Production numbers were low.
3. The car was engineered for excellence rather than mass production.
4. Many present owners have them as "garage quenns"... me included.
5. It is a collector vehicle. The most desirable models command very high premiums. A RHD 993 RS was in 911 & Porsche World this month at GBP 85000. 

I am keeping mine for as long as I can enjoy it... some "concours" and some track time with lots of the 3M blue sticky tape :lol:


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## markh (May 6, 2002)

> 1. The 993 is the last and best "classic" Porsche.
> 2. Production numbers were low.
> 3. The car was engineered for excellence rather than mass production.
> 4. Many present owners have them as "garage quenns"... me included.
> 5. It is a collector vehicle. The most desirable models command very high premiums. A RHD 993 RS was in 911 & Porsche World this month at GBP 85000


What you seem to forget that this is an opinion. Yours and one shared by many others.

Another opinion is water-cooled, faster more 'luxurious' 911's are the 'best'.

I am a 996 owner and whereas I quite like the 993 is doesn't 'float my boat' like my car. Lets just agree we like different cars.

What does get annoying is the constant raving on of some 993 owners how I don't drive a 'real' porsche and 'theirs is better than mine'.

Different cars with the same name.


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

markh said:


> > 1. The 993 is the last and best "classic" Porsche.
> > 2. Production numbers were low.
> > 3. The car was engineered for excellence rather than mass production.
> > 4. Many present owners have them as "garage quenns"... me included.
> ...


As non Porsche owner (but huge fan of the Marque) my understanding is that the engineering integrity (but not necessarily design and technology) of the 993 is considered by many to be superior to the 996.

This is because the 993 was built up to a specification and the 966 was built more down to a cost reflecting the hards time Porsche was going through in the early 90s. Various Porsche managment have admitted as much when talking about such things as: commmon component sharing with Boxster for ecomonies of scale; lower grade interior materials than they would have liked; minor mechanical problems, such as seals failing; and some electrical component issues. However, these are relatively minor things all redressed through the production lifecycle, and now Porsche are _the _ most profitable car manufacturer in the world bar none (Source: Forbes), they have apparently (not driven one yet) redressed all of this wit hteh 997/new Boxster.

That said, 993, 996, 997 whatever, they are all Porsches, the most sucessful racing Marque ever, amongst the most highly regarded sports cars ever and my fav. You should celebrate having one.

the fav Porsches I have driven on both road and track have been a mk i 996 GT3 and a 1987 Carrera CS. So my bets are hedged. Enjoy them.


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## gazandjan (Sep 8, 2003)

Monique

As i said "They will always be a perium for good cars (very good cars)" and yours could well be one of them.

But in times the cars used for day to day drives will drop in value, just like any car.

Iam not saying my car is better then yours etc, but saying to Jackie hold on lets view the bigger picture.

Hope you never use the sticky tape


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## Guest (Nov 11, 2004)

markh said:


> > 1. The 993 is the last and best "classic" Porsche.
> > 2. Production numbers were low.
> > 3. The car was engineered for excellence rather than mass production.
> > 4. Many present owners have them as "garage quenns"... me included.
> ...


as a fellow 993 owner but I agree with what you have said Mark ! I see us all as 911 owners.... I liked the way the 996 drives, there is the odd moment when the old school 993 does annoy me !.. very different cars but still 911's....

For me it would be a 2002 911 GT3 for the Fun and any 993 Targa as the everyday car...

I intend putting mileage on my car.. it's criminal not to drive it.. best drive I've ever owned.. I just can't stop driving it !!!!



> A RHD 993 RS was in 911 & Porsche World this month at GBP 85000


 I think he was having a laugh.. not sure why folk stick their cars in that mag + 10% on the price..... I mean he never drove it ! that's tragic on a car like that.. drive the damn thing !!! it was meant for speed not the damn garage !


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