# What happened to Phil's post about racism in the Flame room?



## raven (May 7, 2002)

Where did it go? :?


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

I guess one of the moderators removed it. But why?


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## raven (May 7, 2002)

Jesus, if anyone did remove it, then it's got to have been the wankiest decision yet. :x


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## vagman (Sep 6, 2002)

The Forum Police strike again. :x

Very disappointing as there was an interesting discussion developing and it made a change from the recent dullness of this forum.


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## t7 (Nov 2, 2002)

Jae has removed it on behalf of the moderator team. I would suggest contacting him if you would like to discuss the matter further.

On the subject of racism and personal attacks let me be clear - these are against forum rules and will not be tolerated.

Louise


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## saint (Dec 6, 2002)

Doh - we have reached that point :?

One way to the US please......


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

t7 said:


> On the subject of racism and personal attacks let me be clear - these are against forum rules and will not be tolerated.
> 
> Louise


But this was the subject of the thread anyway. So why remove it? Removing it doesn't change the way that Kevin behaved. When the cat digs the shit in the ground...the shit is still there. :wink:


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## Dotti (Mar 9, 2003)

t7 said:


> On the subject of racism and personal attacks let me be clear - these are against forum rules and will not be tolerated.
> 
> Louise


Shouldn't 'Mr Powell' be reminded of this then? :roll:


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## Wak (May 6, 2002)

t7 said:


> Jae has removed it on behalf of the moderator team. I would suggest contacting him if you would like to discuss the matter further.
> 
> On the subject of racism and personal attacks let me be clear - these are against forum rules and will not be tolerated.
> 
> Louise


Could Jae or the moderator team explain clearly the breach for which the thread was removed?

How the hell does the CAUSE of the subject thread sit there unmoderated... i.e. the posting that breached the rules

but the discussion about the cause get deleted? which has broken no rules.

Am I missing some logic here, does this seem like a nonsense decision?

The other thing that seems to be a forum problem is the moderation without explaination.

at least have the courtesy to IM the thread instigator your reasons

If you cant do that and accept they may discuss openly those reasons then I suggest your decisions are flawed and this begins to show symptoms of repeating history.

p.s. I hadent read all of the deleted thread....so if it too had degenerated into rule breaking comments then I accept the decision.


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## raven (May 7, 2002)

t7 said:


> Jae has removed it on behalf of the moderator team. I would suggest contacting him if you would like to discuss the matter further.
> 
> On the subject of racism and personal attacks let me be clear - these are against forum rules and will not be tolerated.
> 
> Louise


Jae - perhaps you could post here why you removed it?

t7 - your second comment is patronising to the point of disbelief. Are you trying to put people off posting here?


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## chip (Dec 24, 2002)

Well, at least someone admitted to deleting a thread (whether it's the correct action is somehow debatable), unlike an old Footsie thread which just "disappeared",.......


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## Dr_Parmar (May 10, 2002)

i definitely am missing something!

didnt get a chance to read that thread, and now i feel left out! anybody want to repeat it :roll:


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

I have a copy of this thread saved. But lets wait and see why Jae deleted it and what he plans to do with Kevin first. It is not the first time that Kevin upsets members of the forum and this must end.

If anyone wants a copy you can IM me your email address. :wink:


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## jimfew (Mar 5, 2004)

t7 said:


> Jae has removed it on behalf of the moderator team. I would suggest contacting him if you would like to discuss the matter further.
> 
> On the subject of racism and personal attacks let me be clear - these are against forum rules and will not be tolerated.
> 
> Louise


Louise,

Many thanks to Jae and the moderator team for deleting the thread. A courageous and correct action to take bearing in mind the direct abusive and racist remarks it contained. I also wholeheartedly agree with your sentiment.

V, I know you were the object of some of the abuse, but can you reconsider sending that particular thread around, it disgusts me that it existed in the first place but to know it will still circulate is not good for me personally. It does not properly reflect you as a person either, I know you are a kind and clever man and you do not deserve this kind of abuse.

Jim.


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## raven (May 7, 2002)

jimfew said:


> t7 said:
> 
> 
> > Jae has removed it on behalf of the moderator team. I would suggest contacting him if you would like to discuss the matter further.
> ...


OK, now I am confused. Was there a later post on the thread that I missed? If so, can't the moderator just delete that post?

jimfew - you can't just state that the thread contained "direct abusive and racist remarks" without backing your claim up. It so far would appear that it's only you (and possibly Jae) who thinks this. You might think censorship is a good way to go, but let me assure you that the majority of people disagree with you (set up a poll if you don't believe me). The only "offensive" post on the thread, IIRC, was your post about suggesting Vlastan could take legal action for being described as being Greek. [ooops, there, I've said it, are you going to suggest this thread should be deleted now? Or have I made a personal attack?]


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## Jae (May 6, 2002)

All,

I removed the post, as Im sick to death of the pathetic jibes directed at one another, which detracts from the "nature" of this forum. I did not think it was racist at all, after all V is Greek so stop bing so PC.

People have, in the past, threatened legal action if things were not done to rectify certain comments. This takes time, as I have to consult solicitors etc which in real terms costs money.

Im not going to allow comments directed at one and other which are personal - you ALL agreed to this when you signed up.

This forum is by no means moderated to the degree that you think you are. In the 3 years of this site, we have deleted 4 threads - FOUR!

If you think Im being irrational, thats your decision - BUT at the end of the day you are all not responsible for the content that is published on this site - my company is, and Im NOT prepared to risk something that I have worked my ass off to build (and Im not talking about this forum alone).

Those of you who think that it was unfair, and Im being to harsh in moving it, think about this for one moment - if it were you, and you COULD have your business taken away from you because of the comments of others what would you do? Me selfish, no, business minded yes. Like it or not this site DOES take a lot of resource to keep running, but it is times like this that makes me wonder whether it is worth the hassle, and understand wholey KevSt's decision to stand down.

Now stop throwing your toys out of the pram and get on with being nice to each other - if you dont like someone, DONT TALK TO THEM!

There are some people on here who annoy the arse off me, do I tolerate them, yes, talk to them, no.

Jae


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## jimfew (Mar 5, 2004)

raven said:


> jimfew said:
> 
> 
> > t7 said:
> ...


Actually, I do think censorship, in some cases (and this is one) is correct and so does the law (fortunately). You have incorrectly stated the actual point of the thread (and the quote you have given is an incorrect statement and distorts the truth) and accused me of making the abusive remarks, none of which is correct but seems to satisfy your needs. I cannot defend myself without actuually repeating the thread, so you have won it seems because I am not (in a million years) going to repeat it.

I refuse to defend or elaborate on the thread you'll just have to trust my statement. I am just glad its gone. Well done the Moderators!

If you want a poll about direct abusive racist language being used on the forum, be my guest. I for one, will not dignify it with any credibility.

Jim.


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## Wak (May 6, 2002)

Sorry Jae, this is another f.up! decision IMO.

Moderate and delete the thread concerned.....KMP at least re-edited his thread which was a step forward.

but deleting the discussion thread on it is just shows you to be happy and supportive with the original flouting of rules...

and delete valid points that break no rules.

You have a duty to make comment on the original thread, mentioned above at least, in your post but how did the discussion effect your business?

Just the fact that a discussion and comments existed in a thread content of which didnt break any rules?

At the end of the day its your forum, your business..what are the statistics on your 4 deletions? any common factors?

I dont have a personal vendatta against KMP but if you havent cottened on his ill-thought comments havent deemed the most negative reactions in over 2 years of being here you are blind.

He at least should himself consider joining the minions of normal user so he can make comments without members questioning his responsibility in that role every time.

Let me make it perfectly clear how things currently stand in the eyes of many people I see and meet.

KMP makes and gets away with the odd stupid comment....

You have a business, commercial, personal relationship with him, maybe he's your brother ...who knows?

You do ZERO (at least publicly) to address his actions....hence the above perception continues and this has happened many times, I do appreciate the other party in this paticular argument did get banned so something was done then. I also appreciate KMP has been pretty good for a while and also the history of who else was involved in this thread.

But you do have a problem of a young man who over many years has spoken before he has thought, and doesnt consider who he offends or of the reactions and you have publicly done little to support the majority of opinions posted in those instances.

Now dont get pissed at me I'm telling it how it looks IMO and if someone else comes along and says differently or disagrees I'l gladly edit, apologise or delete.


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## raven (May 7, 2002)

Jae - we all understand your efforts and concerns, but I think you are confusing "personal attacks" with a good old fashioned argument or debate. It's IMO the latter that makes this Forum such a good place to spend time. Additionally, by deleting the whole thread, you have deleted posts you presumably thought were within the "rules" (unless you thought every post was abusive?) which is wrong.



jimfew said:


> Actually, I do think censorship, in some cases (and this is one) is correct and so does the law (fortunately). You have incorrectly stated the actual point of the thread (and the quote you have given is an incorrect statement and distorts the truth) and accused me of making the abusive remarks, none of which is correct but seems to satisfy your needs. I cannot defend myself without actuually repeating the thread, so you have won it seems because I am not (in a million years) going to repeat it.
> 
> I refuse to defend or elaborate on the thread you'll just have to trust my statement. I am just glad its gone. Well done the Moderators!
> 
> ...


Jim - it's not a case of "winning", it's a case of disagreement. If what you saw offended you so much, I fear that you have been living in a closet your whole life. I will say this to you, it is your kind of attitude to honest debate about such issues as racism (ie head in the sand / don't talk about it) that leads to the rise of such despicable political parties as the BNP.

And my suggestion of a poll was regarding censorship, not about the use of abusive racist language. If you read Jae's post, he didn't delete the thread because it was racist.


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## jimfew (Mar 5, 2004)

raven said:


> Jae - we all understand your efforts and concerns, but I think you are confusing "personal attacks" with a good old fashioned argument or debate. It's IMO the latter that makes this Forum such a good place to spend time. Additionally, by deleting the whole thread, you have deleted posts you presumably thought were within the "rules" (unless you thought every post was abusive?) which is wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Raven,

I am more wordly wise than you could possibly imagine.

However, I have made my point. We are unlikely to agree and this is probably not the place to do it.

If you want a poll, who am I to stop you, please start one.

Jim.


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

jimfew said:


> raven said:
> 
> 
> > Jae - we all understand your efforts and concerns, but I think you are confusing "personal attacks" with a good old fashioned argument or debate. It's IMO the latter that makes this Forum such a good place to spend time. Additionally, by deleting the whole thread, you have deleted posts you presumably thought were within the "rules" (unless you thought every post was abusive?) which is wrong.
> ...


You might claim to be wordly wise, but you certainly don't stick to your words or convictions. I thought you had gone:



jimfew said:


> I am Jewish and am greatly disheartened by the racist appeasement attitiudes shown here.
> 
> I have decided never to post here on the forum again and, with heavy heart, say goodbye to all of you. It was interesting while it lasted.


Apparently not.

You made equally heavy weather of a previous "git" reference, hijacking a light and humourous thread with indignant and ill-founded outrage, and again reminding us of your Jewishness. Why should anyone be vaguely interested in what creed you follow? Now you have been puffing up about pseudo legalities and probable/possible outcomes of some litigation that just isn't going to happen.

Do take the moral high ground Jim. It leads away from here.


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

Wak said:


> Sorry Jae, this is another f.up! decision IMO.
> 
> Moderate and delete the thread concerned.....KMP at least re-edited his thread which was a step forward.
> 
> ...


I cannot see how this ostensibly 'reasonable and considered' post can benefit anyone except for yourself with cheap point scoring Wak motivated by your obvious dislike for KMP.

I would have thought that these type of comments are surely best made privately to the person concerned and not publically for all to see? If you did keep them private, then people like me wouldn't feel obliged to put you in your place.

Why don't you just worry about your own forum and leave Jae to run *his forum* the way that *he *sees fit?


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## jimfew (Mar 5, 2004)

garyc said:


> I have decided never to post here on the forum again and, with heavy heart, say goodbye to all of you. It was interesting while it lasted.


Jae (and others) asked me to reconsider after having deleted the post. Since this is what I wanted, I agreed.

Hope that is settled.

It is true I have used the Jewish issue too much for which I apologise. I will not raise it again.

Is that OK with you?

Jim.


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## Wak (May 6, 2002)

garyc said:


> I cannot see how this ostensibly 'reasonable and considered' post can benefit anyone except for yourself with cheap point scoring Wak motivated by your obvious dislike for KMP.
> 
> I would have thought that these type of comments are surely best made privately to the person concerned and not publically for all to see? If you did keep them private, then people like me wouldn't feel obliged to put you in your place.
> 
> Why don't you just worry about your own forum and leave Jae to run *his forum* the way that *he *sees fit?


As a member here I have a right to my opinion and you have no idea the number of IM's I get or deal with in support of other members hence accusing me of cheap point scoring only serves to highlight your own lack of knowledge. What do I gain in GaryC's world? explain it to me! :lol:

I believe I have made a valid point and reasonable compromise, I dont dislike KMP, he's just one of lifes characters that speaks with little thought of the consequences or has distain for the consequences.

To be blatently honest Vlastan can do the same if a little less personal, but there is a difference.

Whats was, has been, and will be peoples gripes....KMP is a moderator and is meant to serve the forum.

A position of responsibility means as someone said and no pun intended...he has to be Whiter than White.

If a policeman in his position of responsibility breaks the law speeding your all ready to ensure he gets done and then panic about yourselves when you get a ticket. go figure!

All I suggested was he were not a moderator then he can say what he likes without the flak of expected responsibility. Whats wrong with that?

As for keeping it private? why? I have had private discussions with Jae before.

I havent slagged KMP off, just openly voiced my opinions about his position being a bone fo contention when he makes controversial comments.

I do expect criticism for my post more so from those that have historical presence on this forum and those that dont know the history behind TT-quattro, but this is not about the other forum, which I am only a participant and have not failed to provide input to either.

I'm quite happy to take your kind of flak, as it mostly comes from a position of ignorance of the history behind my comments.

As for Jae's forum theres no harm in being blunt once in a while as it doesnt appear that private comments have any effect.

Maybe I can gain more cheap points! :lol: for my Tesco clubcard! What are you on about!? :lol: :lol: :lol:

p.s. just noticed location...it gets clearer.


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

[/quote]after all V is Greek so stop bing so PC.


> So from now on we will refer to each other with our Nationality. So Kevin is an English twat, Brett is a Scottish ****, Paula is Welsh ****, Franck is a french ****. And this will be fine then and will not breach any forum guidelines? From my experience in the past I was told off by a moderator for using a generalisation for the British. (of course the above names were picked up in random to demonstate my point and I don't mean any abuse to anyone).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Wak (May 6, 2002)

after all V is Greek so stop bing so PC.


> So from now on we will refer to each other with our Nationality. So Kevin is an English ****, Brett is a Scottish ****, Paula is Welsh ****, Franck is a french ****. And this will be fine then and will not breach any forum guidelines? From my experience in the past I was told off by a moderator for using a generalisation for the British. (of course the above names were picked up in random to demonstate my point and I don't mean any abuse to anyone).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


[/quote]

ROFLMAO!!! :lol: :lol:

V. although very direct I suggest your first comment get edited and toned down a little as although it is only to emphasize a point you have repeated what Kev said to you...in essence! :lol:


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2004)

Dr_Parmar said:


> i definitely am missing something!
> 
> didnt get a chance to read that thread, and now i feel left out! :roll:


  Me too. :?

That's the last time I go on holiday :roll:


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

kmpowell = Ron Atkinson, and I claim my five pounds 

Just goes to show, the most innocent of insults can have quite far reaching consequences.

I cannot believe Jae / the mods have deleted the wrong fucking thread, tho... If ANYTHING needed deleting, it was the original post itself, not the discussion about it - which (owing to me having better things to do over the weekend) I didn't get chance to lend my not insignificant weight to... 

But, IMHO, there was no reason to delete anything. Kev edited his original post and that should have been the end of it. If Jae believes (or is told enough times) that Kev has overstepped the mark too many times, then there are other actions that stem from this - but those are nothing to do with us, really...

I think Wak summed it up quite well. Yet again, we have "moderating rules" applied and no proper reasoning given to us "readers", and apparently no action taken against someone who really should be "whiter that white", to echo Wak's pun. I'm sure I provoke more complaints than Kev on a post for post basis, but I can't recall even ME stooping so low in the past...

But deleting entire threads, which contain valid discussion (and no further pseudo-racist remarks?) is just silly...


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## r1 (Oct 31, 2002)

Jae said:


> All,
> 
> I did not think it was racist at all, after all V is Greek


It would have been a very unusual insult if he wasn't... :?


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## phil (May 7, 2002)

Well I didn't read the forum yesterday (dancing in the mud) so I didn't see anything after my last post. 
I was actually going to ask for the thread to be deleted anyway, or edit my objection myself. As far as I'm concerned people had voiced their opinions, Kev had edited his thread, and stated that his intent was not to be racist, in his own defiant way. We all know Kev doesn't like being wrong, so I took that as an apology. 
Couple of things I'd like to get down though.

A few people have debated whether or not it was racist, and accusations of PC gone mad have been thrown around. While political correctness pisses me off in the extreme (as it's usually counter-productive) it's all besides the point. What Kevin said pissed me off immensly. He may not have meant it like that, and I'm sure he didn't, and generally speaking I'm more than happy with "Sorry mate. Didn't mean to offend". We all have slips of the tongue, especially when angry. It's human nature.

Kev is a moderator, and as such shouldn't be doing this. Again, however, these things can slip out, which is fine. Calm down, say your sorry, and all will be forgotten. However, he chose instead to be defiant, and stubbornly refuse to apologise. Ironicaly, predicatably, and also rather amusingly he then accused me of throwing my toys out of my pram. As a moderator, it's kind of the equivilent of handing out nuclear weapons at camp david. I thought moderators were supposed to sort these things out, not throw fuel on the fire. :?

I don't want Kevin removed as a moderator. Not at all. I just recommend he be a bit more diplomatic in future.


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## Guy (May 13, 2002)

What was wrong for me was that it was a moderator's comments that I found to be abusive. That is not the function or behaviour expected from a moderator.

So everything was best swept under the carpet and disposed of ?

The closing ranks of moderators reminds me of the closing ranks of Noddies....


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

_(Do I detect the distant rythmical sound of flagellated post mortem equine?)_


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

garyc said:


> _(Do I detect the distant rythmical sound of flagellated post mortem equine?)_


No, its just someone banging a drum


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## R6B TT (Feb 25, 2003)

garyc said:


> _(Do I detect the distant rythmical sound of flagellated post mortem equine?)_


I don't know what 'rythmical' means - 'rhythmical' I do understand

Main Entry: rhythÂ·mic
Pronunciation: 'rith-mik
Variant: or rhythÂ·miÂ·cal /-mi-k&l/ 
Function: adjective
1 : of, relating to, or involving rhythm 
2 : marked by or moving in pronounced rhythm <rhythmic contractions> â€"rhythÂ·miÂ·calÂ·ly /-mi-k(&-)lE/ adverb


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

_No. No. I think that it's the sound of expired cetacean being inveighed along a seashore area._


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

R6B TT said:


> garyc said:
> 
> 
> > _(Do I detect the distant rythmical sound of flagellated post mortem equine?)_
> ...


_Razor butt._

ps yes that _is_ a new thesaurus on my desk.


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## Guy (May 13, 2002)

garyc said:


> _(Do I detect the distant *rythmical* sound of flagellated post mortem equine?)_


If it's non of the above, it must be a cabal word from a closet mason. :-*


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

Guy said:


> garyc said:
> 
> 
> > _(Do I detect the distant *rythmical* sound of flagellated post mortem equine?)_
> ...


 :wink:


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## Guy (May 13, 2002)

LOL ....


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## KevinST (May 6, 2002)

And people questioned why I stepped down as admin and have little to do with this site anymore :?


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