# Violence never solved anything!



## Guest

AKA an eye for an eye has left the world blind

ARGH all the threads about enacting revenge on the car scratchers really pisses me off.

Can't you see that this is just as primitive a mindset as those who did the scratching? Makes me wonder if those whose cars have been scratched may well have done some scratching in their time!


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## Carlos

> Makes me wonder if those whose cars have been scratched may well have done some scratching in their time!


Well yes but the ointment cleared it up.


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## vlastan

So how do you suggest you stop the offenders re-offending?

Also have you ever had your car or your property maliciously damaged so you can understand how upset these people feel?


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## kmpowell

> AKA an eye for an eye has left the world blind
> 
> ARGH all the threads about enacting revenge on the car scratchers really pisses me off.
> 
> Can't you see that this is just as primitive a mindset as those who did the scratching? Makes me wonder if those whose cars have been scratched may well have done some scratching in their time!


Well i certainly have never scratched any cars in my life as i have been brought up to repect peoples property, but i still would love to kick the living shit out of the C U N T who keyed the bonnet of my TTR after 2 days of ownership. 

Why should i work my bollocks off and then reward myself for it, to have some wanker ruin my reward. 

Fuck them and fuck you, if you have an attitude like that!!!!


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## Guest

> So how do you suggest you stop the offenders re-offending?
> 
> Also have you ever had your car or your property maliciously damaged so you can understand how upset these people feel?


You really think their bloodlust for revenge has anything to do with trying to stop re-offending ??? HAHAHAHAHA

Yes I have, many times, which has made me realise what a silly thing attachment to possessions is.


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## Guest

> Well i certainly have never scratched any cars in my life as i have been brought up to repect peoples property, but i still would love to kick the living shit out of the Â C U N T who keyed the bonnet of my TTR after 2 days of ownership.
> 
> Why should i work my bollocks off and then reward myself for it, to have some wanker ruin my reward.
> 
> Fuck them and fuck you, if you have an attitude like that!!!!


You're obviously no more mature than the person who scratched your car. There there never mind, you'll grow up some day.


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## Mayur

Never done ANY malicious damage to anyones property EVER! Have been a victim a few times. I am sure that 99.9% of the victims are hard working and respect other peoples property. The victims have a right to feel angry, especially when the law is ineffective in dealing with the vandals. Your ideals may be honourable but I think they are not practical. Show me an ideal world and then we could apply laws such as the ones we now have. We need effective laws.


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## Guest

> Makes me wonder if those whose cars have been scratched may well have done some scratching in their time!


 ??? You must be a Magistrate or a Parole Officer or a Bible basher , or have taken leave of your senses....

Or just taking the piss in general.. [smiley=clown.gif]


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## jgoodman00

I think it is perhaps because we dont trust the justice system in our country.

That any offender actually caught <which is unlikely> would be unlucky to get anything worse than a small fine, even though we have worked our entire lives to put ourselves in a position to own nice things.

I also dont think these people are very bright, & they probably have nothing to lose. The only thing you can take from them is their health. Given the chance I would happily do it.


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## Guest

> The only thing you can take from them is their health. Given the chance I would happily do it.


Would you? Would you *really*? Have any of you rabid idiots ever cold-bloodedly beat up another human being? Would you really really wish to inflict this on another person (and in one thread someone wants to infect the culprit with AIDS - has he ever seen someone suffering and dying from AIDS?) all over a sodding lump of metal ???


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## Guest

> Never done ANY malicious damage to anyones property EVER! Â Have been a victim a few times. I am sure that 99.9% of the victims are hard working and respect other peoples property. The victims have a right to feel angry, especially when the law is ineffective in dealing with the vandals. Your ideals may be honourable but I think they are not practical. Show me an ideal world and then we could apply laws such as the ones we now have. We need effective laws.


But what does this anger actually achieve? Think about it .....


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## Mayur

> But what does this anger actually achieve? Think about it .....


If applied effectively, the anger could trigger thoughts or actions that may bring about change. Gandhi was incredibly angry about the treatment of his people... Mandela was angry at appartheid... they both undertook actions to change their lot (one with non-violence and the other with), and the rest is history. I'm not saying that change HAS to be through violence, but I would'nt rule it out either.


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## GRANNY

Me thinks to many exhaust fumes have been sniffed by somone :


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## Mayur

> Me thinks to many exhaust fumes have been sniffed by somone :


But I only get my TT next week ! ;D


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## GRANNY

Not you. :


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## jgoodman00

> Would you? Would you *really*? Have any of you rabid idiots ever cold-bloodedly beat up another human being? Would you really really wish to inflict this on another person (and in one thread someone wants to infect the culprit with AIDS - has he ever seen someone suffering and dying from AIDS?) all over a sodding lump of metal ???


No I have not. But, if faced with the option of seeing some half-wit laughing at me as he strolls from court scott-free, or giving said half-wit a battering <actually, I wouldnt do the battering myself>, which they would learn from, I would...

Capital punishment is what this country is lacking. Prison is a walk in the park if you are not a law-obiding citizen...

A person caught doing malicious damage to property like this, should have a hand cut off. Most of these people doing the damage are complete wimps. Doing this to them would cure the problem in days...


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## Love_iTT

So, what is your solution, you've told us what we shouldn't do but you need to tell us, in your opinion, what we should be doing.

Graham


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## Major Audi Parts Guru

> Can't you see that this is just as primitive a mindset as those who did the scratching? Makes me wonder if those whose cars have been scratched may well have done some scratching in their time!


If i had any faith in the Police and British justice system then i could possibly understand what you're tying to say,however,knowing how assholes like this get away with it time and time again i would certainly dish out a good beating if i ever caught one of these twats otherwise the courts will probably give them a slapped wrist and send them away again


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## Mayur

> Not you. :


Phew... I was about to crawl under my rock


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## jgoodman00

> If i had any faith in the Police and British justice system then i could possibly understand what you're tying to say,however,knowing how assholes like this get away with it time and time again i would certainly dish out a good beating if i ever caught one of these twats otherwise the courts will probably give them a slapped wrist and send them away again


Great minds ...


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## GRANNY

I reckon Tickler is a turn the other cheek person.
Leave it Vlastan, not that cheek.
A Fish insignia type cheek.


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## nutts

Tickler,

Just out of interest, what would you do if you walked back to your TT and found a 17 year old scratching and kicking your panels?


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## GRANNY

This will be good


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## Mayur

> So, what is your solution, you've told us what we shouldn't do but you need to tell us, in your opinion, what we should be doing.
> 
> Graham


Does this sound familiar Graham...
"we should: 
talk to them (where they swear at us)... communicate with them (they'll probably stick 2 fingers up)... shower them with love (they'll most likely earmark you for a good rogering)... show them a family atmosphere by taking them to Granny's for tea (they'll steal her life savings and then beat her up for fun)... send them overseas on holiday (they'll sue you for the room service being slack)..."

You know that sort of thing Graham... you should know better than asking such a silly question ;D

Sorry folks I don't mean to make light of the topic just tryin gto make Tickler see the light !


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## Major Audi Parts Guru

> ARGH all the threads about enacting revenge on the car scratchers really pisses me off.


So tickler,what exactly would you do if you caught someone intentionally scratching your car or anyone elses for that matter ?


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## jgoodman00

Lol, great answer


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## GRANNY

We should HUG the poor misguided little soul.
Explain to him / her the error of their ways.
THEN kick the shit out of them.


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## nutts

If I came back to my TT and found a fellow owner had witnessed my TT being trashed and done nothing about it, I'm afraid I would lose it with the fellow TT owner!

I can count on 2 fingers over the last 25 years how many times I've really lost it.... but when I do I REALLY DO and God help the poor soul that incites it


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## vlastan

> I can count on 2 fingers over the last 25 years how many times I've really lost it.... but when I do I REALLY DO and God help the poor soul that incites it


...just make sure they don't step on your nailess toe!!


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## vagman

Tickler mate, like it or not, the only way the wee shites learn is if they are administered the appropriate punishment. 

I'm with the rest of the guys on this one.


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## Guest

> If applied effectively, the anger could trigger thoughts or actions that may bring about change. Gandhi was incredibly angry about the treatment of his people... Mandela was angry at appartheid... they both undertook actions to change their lot (one with non-violence and the other with), and the rest is history. I'm not saying that change HAS to be through violence, but I would'nt rule it out either.


Good point and acknowledged. Sadly methinks the people getting mad on here aren't of that calibre or mindset, but I could be mistaken, and hope that I am.


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## Guest

> <actually, I wouldnt do the battering myself>


I find this unspeakably cowardly and despicable.


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## Guest

> Capital punishment is what this country is lacking. Prison is a walk in the park if you are not a law-obiding citizen...


You haven't got a clue wot you are talking about


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## Guest

> So, what is your solution, you've told us what we shouldn't do but you need to tell us, in your opinion, what we should be doing.
> 
> Graham


Don't get so attached to things, it's just a thing fer crissakes and you are not going to die if it gets scratched!


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## Guest

> Tickler,
> 
> Just out of interest, what would you do if you walked back to your TT and found a 17 year old scratching and kicking your panels?


NuTTs, that's a very hard question to answer which I've thought a lot about it (honestly) and really don't know. What I do know is that any reaction I might have involving violence would be more of a comment on my state of mind and equilibrium than anything else, but no-one's perfect.


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## nutts

:-/


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## Major Audi Parts Guru

> NuTTs, that's a very hard question to answer which Â I've thought a lot about it (honestly) and really don't know. What I do know is that any reaction I might have involving violence would be more of a comment on my state of mind and equilibrium than anything else, but no-one's perfect.


tickler
Somehow i think that if you actually experienced an unfortunate incident like this then you would understand what we're all saying.I don't think that you would just stand there and watch him do it


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## Guest

> tickler
> Somehow i think that if you actually experienced an unfortunate incident like this then you would understand what we're all saying.I don't think that you would just stand there and watch him do it


Oh but I have, more than you could imagine,    hence my stance.


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## Major Audi Parts Guru

> Oh but I have, more than you could imagine, Â  Â  Â  hence my stance.


so can you describe to us all exactly what happened along with the eventual outcome


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## garyc

> AKA an eye for an eye has left the world blind
> 
> ARGH all the threads about enacting revenge on the car scratchers really pisses me off.
> 
> Can't you see that this is just as primitive a mindset as those who did the scratching? Makes me wonder if those whose cars have been scratched may well have done some scratching in their time!


You. Outside now. And bring 'yer Social Worker with you.


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## garyc

Actually I've changed my mind and want to just forgive everybody for everything and to better understand the vandals personal anguish levels.

Now where's my sodding tambourine? [smiley=wings.gif]

Seriously, Tickler has noble sentiments Â - except without offering any Â plausible solution or alternative he actually becomes part of the problem. Â

How about conscription.........?

Self Righteous Lynch Mob step fooooooorwaaaard.[smiley=hanged.gif]


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## raven

The sad thing is, if you did inflict violence on a low-life criminal who scratched your car, you'd probably end up doing time yourself. That's why crime is going up and up. 

Tickler - I understand what you're saying, but criminals need to know that people will take the law into their own hands to protect their property if necessary. This may never actually lead to violence, but surely the fact that it could happen could lead to it being a deterrent.

Whilst nobody would really want to live in a society that cut people's hands off for theft, I bet you anything that incidents of theft would drop dramatically if it were the case.

Revenge with violence is a very primitive concept, but instinctive to the point of it being in our genes. Violence for violence's sake is not instinctive, and just demonstrates that you're a thug and deserve to be locked up.


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## Lisa.

I am without my car as I write this as the result of some little key scratching scrote attacking my car AND its cost me Â£300+ to put it right. Â I am without a car for two days and I'm trapped with you lot for company :-/.

To think in one evening that little bastard could cause Â£1000's and Â Â£1000's of damage in a blink of an eyelid and you think we should just shrug our shoulders makes my blood boil. Â If the little prick actually got caught in the act and gets a good thumping then thats the risk he takes, surely?
Isn't it the thought of doing damage maybe/maybe not getting away with it that spurs these little twats on?

IMO they are just asking for a beating :-/


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## vlastan

OK...had second thoughts. If you beat him up he will come back for more scratching to your car. He will come back to get revenge and this time the damage will be more extensive.

I have to say that this is a very delicate situation and very difficult to deal with it effectively, i.e. getting him to pay for the damage and stop him re-offending. :-/


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## emvisi

I tend to agree with tickler's sentiment that the threat of violence won't necessarily stop people doing mindless things like scratching cars. In many cases it would make things worse, escalating a minor, randomly targetted offence into a much more personal situation involving assault and the potential for ongoing revenge & retribution. And the odds are that you have a lot more to lose from this than the bottom-feeder that scratched your car does.

I'm sure there are a myriad reasons why some idiots choose to damage other people's property and there's no quick-fix, easy solution that will make everyone change their ways. There will always be a minority of anti-social people who will do what they like, regardless of the threat of legal or violent redress, whether it's because they choose to ignore the potential consequences of their actions or precisely because they want to provoke a response.

Sure, if I caught a teenager showing off to his mates by damaging my car, then a good clump might help him see the error of his ways. It could also send him off whining to his daddy and pressing an assault charge. He might not scratch my car again, but what else would I lose just for that small victory?

However, I'd guess that a good many car scratchers are anti-social 'have-nots' and -- let's face it -- the sort of loser that wouldn't shy away from (and might actually relish) a set-to at the side of the road. If I caught one of these in the act, the chances are they'd leg it and wouldn't come back in a hurry, knowing that I'd have a good description and be looking out for them. If so, I'd call the police and let them deal with it. If I caught up with them and kicked off (or if they stood their ground, spoiling for a fight), who knows what might happen, what weapons they might be carrying or how desperate they are to get away? I'd have to be pretty stupid to get involved. My instinct may well be to get stuck in, but like most rational people I'm able to choose whether or not to follow my instincts, red mist or no.

OK, I'm very angry right now because my car was scratched two days ago. My blood boils every time I look at it, having spent years saving for it and hours cleaning and polishing it shortly before it was damaged. Of course, I've daydreamed about catching the scrote that did it and beating him to a pulp with a variety of blunt instruments, but there's a world of difference between fantasy and reality. In the cold light of day I know it wouldn't do anybody any good at all, and probably least of all me.

My attitude is that shit happens. It's a pisser, but it's a fact of life that the world is full of losers who feel the world has dealt them a bad hand, blame everyone else but themselves and feel justified in lashing out at any signs of prosperity, regardless of the consequences. Frankly I've got better things to do than waste my time and energy on stoking their hatred. I know when to cut my losses.


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## Guest

> ... except without offering any Â plausible solution or alternative


I have - don't get so attached to possessions.


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## Guest

> so can you describe to us all exactly what happened along with the eventual outcome


Nope, and I know that sounds like ducking, but my past is between me and my conscience.


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## vlastan

> I have - don't get so attached to possessions.


This is difficult! A lot of people have taken large loans and payments going for 4 or 5 years. A lot of people with not so much time had the desire to get a nice car and were prepared to sacrifice lifestyles (in some cases) to do this.

As long as we live in a materialistic society....this is going to be difficult.


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## garyc

> I have - don't get so attached to possessions.


I said plausible. You don't have to be 'so attached' to care about things and actually want to keep them in good condition.


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## s3_lurker

Interesting thread -

Having had to pay for the wife's MX5 being keyed twice I've experienced the sick knot in the stomach and the desire to beat the little/big shits who did it to a pulp ..

Reality is it's never gonna happen. Beat them up and either we'll be doing time or the cnts will come back with their mates for more.

Point is the dickheads who vandalise and burgle our stuff have a completely different value system to people who honestly work hard to own a smart car. We all have jobs, families, mortgages etc. A criminal record will screw us up much more than the glue-sniffing loser who spends much of his life in court or in nick.

The courts and police won't bother with them (too much paperwork, not enough cells etc).

So in one way TTickler is correct. Violence won't solve anything. Where I think we differ with his philosophy is that we HOPE the keying little shits get caught and crucified.


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## jgoodman00

> I have - don't get so attached to possessions.


It doesnt only apply to possessions. Almost every day on the news you hear of somebody being attacked, & beaten up so that somebody else can steal their possessions. It might start with some little twat keying your car, but unchecked he will quite probably move on to more serious offences. It is time to make a stand <as with Saddam>, because our law is incapable of protecting us...


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## r1

> Nope, and I know that sounds like ducking, but my past is between me and my conscience.


From a cynics point of view: This whole thread has been started as you know full well that the question will be asked 'what would you do if...?' and you can appear enigmatic by saying 'well, it's already happened and I won't say'.

So, either nothing happened and you're saying this to appear a little mysterious - unlikely.

Or - someone did something similar to you and you punished them beyond reason. Your guilty conscience now insists that you fight a moral battle with whoever will listen. :-/

I, however, disagree and will hurt anyone who does this sort of thing to me. Right or wrong I don't give a shit - they won't do it again and thats the main thing.


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## Lisa.

Just looking at your pic is scary enough.

http://www.geocities.com/r120012002/ind ... 7312113990
is that a wink? I wonder what you look like when you are angry?


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## r1

> Just looking at your pic is scary enough.
> 
> http://www.geocities.com/r120012002/ind ... 7312113990
> is that a wink? I wonder what you look like when you are angry?


Haha - that what about 5 bottles of wine does to me!


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## Dotti

Simple fact of life having a nice car and be prepared to expect the unexpected whilst owning it. You could easily get a door dent or a scrap in a car park and still have similar thoughts what ever damage would happen to it. It is the disadvantage of owning any nice car.

You could even have a severe nasty accident which may not be your fault and still argue the point about it being written off because it is no longer nice!


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## Guest

> It is time to make a stand <as with Saddam>, because our law is incapable of protecting us...


As long as you don't personally have to do the dirty work ay?


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## Guest

> From a cynics point of view: This whole thread has been started as you know full well that the question will be asked 'what would you do if...?' and you can appear enigmatic by saying 'well, it's already happened and I won't say'.
> 
> So, either nothing happened and you're saying this to appear a little mysterious - unlikely.
> 
> Or - someone did something similar to you and you punished them beyond reason. Your guilty conscience now insists that you fight a moral battle with whoever will listen. :-/
> 
> I, however, disagree and will hurt anyone who does this sort of thing to me. Right or wrong I don't give a shit - they won't do it again and thats the main thing.


Thanks, R1. You've made me think about why I started this thread in the first place. I've got no right to judge others reactions and condemn them for it. And _my_ reaction to their reaction (???) certainly gives me food for thought. This thread has also made me re-examine my motives for wanting to own a status symbol such as a TT in the first place.

I'd just make a couple final points to those who have suffered their cars being vandalised. What's getting hot under the collar achieiving? And what motives did you have for getting a status symbol car?

Had my rant.


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## Dotti

LOL oh Dear!


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## jgoodman00

Who said anything about 'getting hot under the collar'? If I chose to react to such a situation, it would be calculated & deliberate...


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## Major Audi Parts Guru

> Nope, and I know that sounds like ducking, but my past is between me and my conscience.


 :


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## Mayur

> Good point and acknowledged. Sadly methinks the people getting mad on here aren't of that calibre or mindset, but I could be mistaken, and hope that I am.


Thankyou Tickler.

I just think that we are all pretty fed up with injustice, thats all. The "work hard and reap the rewards" theory doesn't seem to hold anymore. It's more like "work hard, protect the rewards by working harder"... etc.

Having said all that I have, I don't think that I would be prepared to physically do damage to anyone. I did it once where I was trying to stop a bunch of skinheads harrassing an old woman and I was promptly thrown through a plate glass window! Because I grabbed the mohican hair of one of the gang and took him through the 15 foot glass window, I was told that I was lucky, the chap didn't sue me! The cops let them go... 3 days later they stabbed a cop to death! Where's the justice in all this?

I do appreciate your point and thanks for the original posting. A lot of people on this forum have outlined issues that have certainly made me think a bit more about the issue. Thanks to all.


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## Major Audi Parts Guru

What is this world coming to.......... [smiley=end.gif]


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## Mayur

> What is this world coming to.......... [smiley=end.gif]


Too right Paul.

Everything is pointing to a new era... after a couple of centuries in the age of the intelectuals we are moving towards the age of the warriors. Unfortunately, only the strong will survive and control, usually at any cost. Morality and justice will play an even lesser role. I know its a very pesimistic view, but these cycles have occured before.

Sad really. I hope I am wrong.


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## jgoodman00

> Having said all that I have, I don't think that I would be prepared to physically do damage to anyone. I did it once where I was trying to stop a bunch of skinheads harrassing an old woman and I was promptly thrown through a plate glass window! Because I grabbed the mohican hair of one of the gang and took him through the 15 foot glass window, I was told that I was lucky, the chap didn't sue me! The cops let them go... 3 days later they stabbed a cop to death! Where's the justice in all this?


Exactly. Neither us or the cops can do anything about such people. Prison is not a scary place for them, it is only scary for us. We have out-of-touch judges giving ridiculous rulings & letting people like this roam the streets.
If we removed their hands, they would not be able to do anything, & all the others thinking about it would think twice...


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## emvisi

> If we removed their hands, they would not be able to do anything...


Apart from being despicably barbaric, you don't think that course of action might make petty criminals even more bitter & vengeful?

Really, if there was a quick and easy fix to all these problems, I'm sure someone would have thought of it by now.


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## jgoodman00

> Apart from being despicably barbaric, you don't think that course of action might make petty criminals even more bitter & vengeful?


It is also not as if they could argue they didnt deserve it. If they knowingly broke a law which could result in them losing limbs, then they are fine to face te consequences.

Unfortunately, the people in power are bound by farcical EU law & human rights, & nobody is prepared to actually make a strong-minded decision. If they made this law, crimes of this type would reduce to almost zero overnight.

What are they going to do; Swing stumpy arms?

They will be little more than a hoopla target. :


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## raven

> It is also not as if they could argue they didnt deserve it. If they knowingly broke a law which could result in them losing limbs, then they are fine to face te consequences.
> 
> Unfortunately, the people in power are bound by farcical EU law & human rights, & nobody is prepared to actually make a strong-minded decision. If they made this law, crimes of this type would reduce to almost zero overnight.
> 
> What are they going to do; Swing stumpy arms?
> 
> They will be little more than a hoopla target. Â :


It would be a bit unfortunate if they got the wrong guy. They can hardly give him his arm back can they? :-/

Agree that it would be totally barbaric to have such a level of punishment. You have to grade punishment depending on severity of the crime, otherwise thieves will turn to killing anyone who might have witnessed them.


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## Mayur

Maybe the victim should have a strong say in the sentence (maybe even set the sentence) of a criminal... obviously there should be a ceiling for the max penalty. It may act as a strong deterent. Furthemore, I don't think the law may be too lenient, I think it's the judges.


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## emvisi

> What are they going to do; Swing stumpy arms?


You may just be underestimating the capabilities (and connections) of a very bitter criminal. :-/


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## jgoodman00

> It would be a bit unfortunate if they got the wrong guy. They can hardly give him his arm back can they?


I agree. I guess you need to have a sever punishment if the case is completely clear-cut. If not then less severe punishments could be dealt out, but again they need to be hugely more severe than they are at present. Making prison an unpleasant experience <& making them do hard-graft> would be a start. The very threat of losing a limb if found unequivocally guilty would deter all but the most determined of crims.



> Maybe the victim should have a strong say in the sentence (maybe even set the sentence) of a criminal... obviously there should be a ceiling for the max penalty. It may act as a strong deterent. Furthemore, I don't think the law may be too lenient, I think it's the judges.


I really like this idea, not sure of the implementation of this.



> You may just be underestimating the capabilities (and connections) of a very bitter criminal. Â


I was not being completely serious . I agree, but again, make the punishment harsh enough for acting in response to this & I feel you could again deter them.


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## Mayur

> I agree. I guess you need to have a sever punishment if the case is completely clear-cut. If not then less severe punishments could be dealt out, but again they need to be hugely more severe than they are at present. Making prison an unpleasant experience <& making them do hard-graft> would be a start. The very threat of losing a limb if found unequivocally guilty would deter all but the most determined of crims.
> 
> I really like this idea, not sure of the implementation of this.
> 
> I was not being completely serious . I agree, but again, make the punishment harsh enough for acting in response to this & I feel you could again deter them.


One way may be to offer the victim the opportunity to either be present at the sentencing or fill out a form at the time of reporting the crime. The form could have a 0 to 10 scoring as to how severe the victim would like to sentence to be. Upon conviction, the judge knows the penalties that are applicable by the law, all he then does is look at the victims scoring and pronounces a relevant judgment. It takes away the "send them on a holiday" ruling that some judges have been known to hand out.


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## jgoodman00

Yup, I think it has to be combined with the American jail philosophy whereby prisoners are chained. They should also be made to do proper hard graft, such as digging out ditches.

If after a sentence like this they reoffend, they start to lose bodily parts.

I really believe crime in this country would drop so much the police would not be understaffed...


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## PaulS

A while ago, I was unfortunate enough to have my garage broken into, and a lot of my tools stolen. Whoever did it, also broke into the car that was in the garage, and after ripping the stereo out, decided just for fun, to slash all of the seats and prize open the boot using a crow bar. It was absolutely sickening.

A lot of people keep mentioning that you should not get too attached to material things, personal possessions, "it's only a lump of metal" etc etc.

WTF should I not get too attached to my personal possesions? I don't care if it's a cheap holiday souvenir, or a Â£25,000 TT - I've worked hard to get these things and why should I put up with some scumbag stealing them or causing malicious damage?

As for what I would do if I caught the said scum keying my car - well I wouldn't stand around watching him do it and suggest that he seek councilling! Part of human nature is to respond to a threat in kind, it's very difficult to surpress that.

The problem here is the perception that these scumbags are getting away with it - which in most cases is probably true due to police understaffing / disinterest and the lenient sentences that some of these Judges dish out - social building skills, holidays abroad, etc etc. I'm sorry, but in my opinion, that is PC gone way too far. What ever happened to the 'short, sharp, shock' treatment?

God forbid, but if anything should happen to my car, I would be very angry about the damage, but probably more angry knowing that the scumbag did it and got away with it, without realising the consequencies of his actions. Should he be caught, and given a social skills building course / free holiday, I would probably be just as angry.

Should he be caught, and given a bloody good public flogging, it would make me feel better. Sorry if all you politically correct activists out there don't like that, but that's the way it is. This is born out of frustration of watching the justice system being slowly tipped in favour of the criminal, in this country. Â

[serious mode off]

Yeah I think the self righteous lynch mob should be employed removing the limbs of habitual criminals. They could do it once a week at speakers corner. If the sight of loads of one eyed, one armed, one legged ex-criminals hopping around put just one of these scumbags off keying somebodies car, it would be a result.


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## emvisi

> I guess you need to have a *sever* punishment...


;D


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## Mayur

should read.. "sewer punishment..." hehehe ;D


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## Mayur

Came across this Reuters reprot on what the Taleban were doing in Afghanistan in 1998:

"On Wednesday, the Taleban ordered the execution of three men for sodomy in the southern town of Kandahar, southern Afghanistan. They were ordered to be buried alive under a pile of stones and a wall was pushed on top of them by a tank.

Their lives were to be spared if they survived for 30 minutes and were still alive when the stones were removed. "

So folks, do you think the guys survived? and would this sort of thing in public send a clear message to would be vandals... or in this case sodomists?


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## Guest

> A while ago, I was unfortunate enough to have my garage broken into, and a lot of my tools stolen. Whoever did it, also broke into the car that was in the garage, and after ripping the stereo out, decided just for fun, to slash all of the seats and prize open the boot using a crow bar. It was absolutely sickening.
> 
> A lot of people keep mentioning that you should not get too attached to material things, personal possessions, "it's only a lump of metal" etc etc.
> 
> WTF should I not get too attached to my personal possesions? I don't care if it's a cheap holiday souvenir, or a Â£25,000 TT - I've worked hard to get these things and why should I put up with some scumbag stealing them or causing malicious damage?
> 
> As for what I would do if I caught the said scum keying my car - well I wouldn't stand around watching him do it and suggest that he seek councilling! Part of human nature is to respond to a threat in kind, it's very difficult to surpress that.
> 
> The problem here is the perception that these scumbags are getting away with it - which in most cases is probably true due to police understaffing / disinterest and the lenient sentences that some of these Judges dish out - social building skills, holidays abroad, etc etc. I'm sorry, but in my opinion, that is PC gone way too far. What ever happened to the 'short, sharp, shock' treatment?
> 
> God forbid, but if anything should happen to my car, I would be very angry about the damage, but probably more angry knowing that the scumbag did it and got away with it, without realising the consequencies of his actions. Should he be caught, and given a social skills building course / free holiday, I would probably be just as angry.
> 
> Should he be caught, and given a bloody good public flogging, it would make me feel better. Sorry if all you politically correct activists out there don't like that, but that's the way it is. This is born out of frustration of watching the justice system being slowly tipped in favour of the criminal, in this country. Â
> 
> [serious mode off]
> 
> Yeah I think the self righteous lynch mob should be employed removing the limbs of habitual criminals. They could do it once a week at speakers corner. If the sight of loads of one eyed, one armed, one legged ex-criminals hopping around put just one of these scumbags off keying somebodies car, it would be a result.


Actually I think it's only me saying don't get attached Â  a lone voice in this hotbed of Â materialism. Â :'(

There's absolutely nothing to say you shouldn't get attached, nothing at all. But do recognise that it has it's consequences - potential anger, frustration, unhappiness, frustration when said thing passes away as all things do. That's not to say don't enjoy, but see the transient nature of all things.

Point taken about response to threat, but I never said it was easy! As for your bloodlust for revenge, would you be willing to administer the flogging? Or would you get someone else to do the dirty work as other less-than-wholesome individuals on here would?

If a tree fell on the car and wrecked it I doubt if anyone would be so angry, so it boils down to the personal nature of the attack - someohow these "scum" have dared to attack this symbol of your superiority - after all that's why many of us have Â bought these things, to show we're superior to our fellow man, that's why they are status symbols, prestige cars. It's sad that we need such things to validate our feelings of self-worth.

And before you point your fingers at me yes, I've bought one too! Not sure if I want to keep it now, but I don't think I'm so attached.


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## Guy

> As long as you don't personally have to do the dirty work ay?


Well Tickler, who do you want to do your dirty work? Â Who do you want to protect you and your family and keep you in a position to spout forth the pathetic homilies you have been doing?

You have not even been able to answer the basic question of how would you stop the mindless moron who does the sort damage talked about.

I'm sorry Tickler but you just don't hack it in my book, empty barrels and that sort of thing....


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## PaulS

> Actually I think it's only me saying don't get attached a lone voice in this hotbed of materialism.


Fair point, I wasn't directing that comment at you, personally 



> There's absolutely nothing to say you shouldn't get attached, nothing at all. But do recognise that it has it's consequences - potential anger, frustration, unhappiness, frustration when said thing passes away as all things do. That's not to say don't enjoy, but see the transient nature of all things.


Absolutely agree!



> As for your bloodlust for revenge, would you be willing to administer the flogging? Or would you get someone else to do the dirty work as other less-than-wholesome individuals on here would?


I think you are taking my post a little too literally. OK, I would personally like to give them a damm good 'talking to' then, to at least try and understand what goes on in the minds of these individuals who commit pointless acts of vandalism. It is the helplessness that you feel after something like this has happened to you, that causes the frustration (not quite "blood lust" ) The authoritys seem to take ages to do very little, except to appear to 'reward' the offenders. You do not see justice done. Would I get someone else to do the dirty work - not really sure what you are implying - any punishments would have to be administered under the umbrella of law.



> If a tree fell on the car and wrecked it I doubt if anyone would be so angry, so it boils down to the personal nature of the attack - someohow these "scum" have dared to attack this symbol of your superiority - after all that's why many of us have bought these things, to show we're superior to our fellow man, that's why they are status symbols, prestige cars. It's sad that we need such things to validate our feelings of self-worth.


That is all very true. Just as long as you keep it all in perspective. May be it is sad that some people need to buy 'status symbols' TT's even, to maintain their self esteem. I just enjoy driving the car, and meeting other people into the same things.



> And before you point your fingers at me yes, I've bought one too! Not sure if I want to keep it now, but I don't think I'm so attached.


Ultimately then, you must sell it, to satisfy your morals.


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## Guest

> Well Tickler, who do you want to do your dirty work? Â Who do you want to protect you and your family and keep you in a position to spout forth the pathetic homilies you have been doing?
> 
> You have not even been able to answer the basic question of how would you stop the mindless moron who does the sort damage talked about.
> 
> I'm sorry Tickler but you just don't hack it in my book, empty barrels and that sort of thing....


I think you're extrapolating a lot here, but I suppose to you it's the "thin end of the wedge". But fwiw an attack on one's person is in my view a different kettle of fish to an attack to property/possessions.

How to stop them? I wish I had an answer. All I'm saying is imho violence and bloody revenge will not do it. Furthermore, those espousing it have imho unbalanced and unhealthy attitudes to their ownership of such status symbols and unwholesome reasons for acquiring them.


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## vagman

> If tree fell on the car and wrecked it I doubt if anyone would be so angry, so it boils down to the personal nature of the attack - someohow these "scum" have dared to attack this symbol of your superiority - after all that's why many of us have Â bought these things, to show we're superior to our fellow man, that's why they are status symbols, prestige cars. It's sad that we need such things to validate our feelings of self-worth.


Tickler, are you suggesting that people shrug their shoulders if their, TT, car, house or whatever is vandalised.

I would hazard a guess that every member of this Forum would try to defend their property, all except for yourself of course.

As for superiority, no-one has suggested that at all. Personally, there were a number of reasons I bought the car, none of which I have to justify to anybody.


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## Guy

> How to stop them? I wish I had an answer. All I'm saying is imho violence and bloody revenge will not do it. Furthermore, those espousing it have imho unbalanced and unhealthy attitudes to their ownership of such status symbols and unwholesome reasons for acquiring them.


Yep, empty barrels.......


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## BreTT

In the late 80's whilst living in East Oakley, Hampshire, we caught some guys breaking into our cars at around 11pm on a Sunday night.

My Dad, the next door neighbour and I gave chase for about a mile before catching up with the two guys. My Dad and I jumped one of the guys and pinned him down. Our neighbour went to grab the second guy and got hit on the forehead with a skateboard. The second guy then did a runner. Our neighbour then saw red (literally) and ran up to the guy we had pinned to the ground and started kicking him in the ribs. I didn't realise what was happening at the time (I thought he was trying to throw me off to get away), so I started punching him in the face.

At this point our neighbours wife arrived and dragged him off, and my Dad dragged me off the guy. He got up and did a runner. We went to the local police station covered in blood to report the incident. The neighbour ended up with six stitches in his head. The police interviewed us all the following day and warned us that if a complaint was made against us, we would face assult charges. As it happened, the officer believed he knew who the lads were and thought that they were "unlikely to re-offend in our area again". No complaint was made, and our property was not touched again.

I'm not sure that I would do it again to protect a car. My burd or unborn child, absolutely! The car is insured and have taken additional precautions against it being stolen. If it were vandalised and I witnessed it, I would be inclined to weigh up the situation i.e. am I going to get hurt and potentially killed for this car, leaving my burrd and baby alone? Clear answer is no. I am not saying that I would be happy about it, but I don't think that I would rush into confrontation now.

That night, we took the law into our own hands and got a favourable result. Sometimes, violence _is_ a means to an end, but had either of the guys been armed, the end result may have been very different.

Incidentally, the police were unofficially supportive of our action!


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## Antwerpman

A very emotive subject, and I am going to play devils advocate for a while, so I am prepared for some serious flaming.

Now I guess that 99% of this list breaks the law on a regular basis through speeding. How would you feel if excess speed was punished through cutting off your accelerator foot, or your gear changin hand??

And before you all use the 'yeh but speeding is not the same' I would make two points. First is that the world that many are describing is 'black and white' - guilty=hands chopped off, a crime is committed and a punishment is administered, grey areas do not exist and socio-economic conditions do have an effect. Secondly, you may argue that speeding is not really hurting anyone, but speeding has much more potential to hurt people than scratching a car. I think that we all forget that we are licenced to be in charge of a potentially lethal device. So why should mismanagement of said device not be severely punished?? If someone walked down your street taking pot-shots at birds with a double barrelled shotgun you would want something done about them......even if they did argue that they were fully in control at all times and didn't actually hurt anyone!!

If you want to live in a draconian society, then you have to expect this to be all pervasive and not just to fit into the little niches that suit you personally. Hence you have to accept the same arguments for the treatement of all crimes, not just the ones that you are percieved as being committed against you. Now I for one do not want to live in such a society, and one of the traits of the society that we do live in is that grey areas do exist, where the law does have to interpret mitigating circumstances and where sometimes, some of society will consider those judgements to be wrong (but believe me there will be an equal body of people who believe that they were correct and some who will believe them to be too harsh). Now I for one would like to think that if ever I lost my rag with some little scrote who was damaging my car, I would be judged by our current system, where all of the circumstances would be considered and where, just because a crime had been committed (in the black and white sense), I would not be flogged!! Now that little scrote might think that the law is wrong and that I should be flogged but he can just go F'ck him self and write about it on a forum somewhere!!

Another interesting point, and one which seems to have been missed, is that the level of punishment is rarely a deterrent, as most people who commit crimes, surprisingly enough, do it in the thought that they are not going to get caught!!! Hence the lack of effect seen on crime rates in those states in the US where the death penalty occurs.

OK and now for the record I do occasionally enjoy higher speeds and dont want to see more draconian measures against speeding, but just thought that I would try to give some food for thought

AM


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## jgoodman00

> Now I guess that 99% of this list breaks the law on a regular basis through speeding. How would you feel if excess speed was punished through cutting off your accelerator foot, or your gear changin hand??


All things are relative. It would not be fair to punish somebody who has merely been caught speeding with such a harsh punishment. Whilst they might have hurt somebody or something, the fact they got caught speeding proves they didnt. However, if caught for dangerous driving or similar, then yes the punishment should be equally harsh.

But, unfortunately, the majority of people who drive, speed. The majority of people who drive are law obiding citizens <except for speeding on occaison>. I would be willing to bet the majority of people who commit such acts as vandalism regularly break the law, as they have little regard for it...


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## Antwerpman

Ahhh but you are looking at it from your own viewpoint, were you the father of a child killed by someone who was speeding, your viewpoint might be a very different one.....

What I was trying to emphasis is that we all break the law but it is our own moral judgement that decides where that law breaking stops - is it at speeding, taking a pen from work, typing on TTforum during work hours, or something further down the scale??? They are all breaking the law and just because your own moral code justifies speeding it does not make it acceptable, just look at how the perception on drink driving has changed. Believe me the policy makers are now trying their best to do the same with speeding and perhaps in 10 years time we will all look down at anyone who displays such 'anti-social' behaviour!!

If you want to live in a society where extreme measures are taken against someone who is guilty of damage to property, then you should also expect punishments for lesser crimes (such as speeding) to also be increased (although maybe not to that level). Just because you do not view speeding as a 'real' crime then it does not mean that others do not or that in the eyes of the law it is not seen that way (zero tolerance would say that such small crimes should be severly punished to prevent escalation!!)

I think it is natural to feel these revenge instincts, but I for one would not want to live in a society where such corporal punishment was reality, and I suspect that most other people would not either if they really knew how it would effect them.


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## jgoodman00

> Ahhh but you are looking at it from your own viewpoint, were you the father of a child killed by someone who was speeding, your viewpoint might be a very different one...


I am not looking at it from my own viewpoint. Speeding is a traffic offence. Malicious damage <to property or person> is a criminal offence. Dangerous driving etc can be criminal offences. These should be dealt with severely.

If we, as law obiding citizens break the speed limit, we know we may get caught for speeding & fined, or worse. We live with the potential that we might kill somebody, & it might be due to excess speed. We fear prison, & the punishment we would be given.

This fear does not apply to the calibre of person who causes malicious damage. They do not fear prison. It is more like a holiday to them. If you got nothing more than a telling off if caught speeding, you would speed more readily. These are relative comparisons. The punishments should therefore be increased to a level at which they can comprehend <i.e. if it hurts dont do it>.

Alas they wont, & crime will continue to soar. Perhaps in ten years time we will all frown upon speeding, as we lay in bed, ready to help any would be burgler out with our posessions if he wants them, through fear of prosecution for 'ruining his trade' or something similar by giving him a slap... :-/


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## Dubcat

I fart in the face of would be thieves. I am unlikely to go further due to potential retribution either by them, their gang of cronies, or their lawyer.

That is my succinct yet pungent contribution to this debate.

phoTToniq.

p.s. there is not nearly enough swearing or unfettered anger in this thread.


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## Guest

> Tickler, are you suggesting that people shrug their shoulders if their, TT, car, house or whatever is vandalised.
> 
> I would hazard a guess that every member of this Forum would try to defend their property, all except for yourself of course.
> 
> As for superiority, no-one has suggested that at all. Personally, there were a number of reasons I Â bought the car, none of which I have to justify to anybody. Â


There's two separate scenarios here -

1) catch person(s) in the act. As I've said before I'm not sure how I'd react in this situation, but if resorted to violence I think would be more of a comment on my state of mind and equilibrium.

2) find damage after the act. In this case yes I would just shrug my shoulders.

I'm not saying you should justify your reasons. In fact in retrospect my post was harshly judgemental of others on my part and I regret posting it.


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## Guest

> This fear does not apply to the calibre of person who causes malicious damage. They do not fear prison. It is more like a holiday to them.


I think you've been reading the Daily Mail too much and really should get out more.


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## jgoodman00

> I think you've been reading the Daily Mail too much and really should get out more.


Lol, to the best of my knowledge, I have never read the daily mail.


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## garyc

> If a tree fell on the car and wrecked it I doubt if anyone would be so angry, .


I would be and I'd blame your god 

Lovely thread. Borderline philosophical. Good.

Now can we lynch someone? ;D


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## r1

Can we keep the posts below 3 lines on this thread please - I'm enjoying it but really can't be arsed to read it all. Thank you.


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## Antwerpman

Yeh, God help anyone who has not kept up with this and decides to troll through 10 pages of this stuff!!!


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## PaulS

> I would be and I'd blame your god


LOL! Exactly 



> Lovely thread. Â Borderline philosophical. Â Good.


Are you going to give us all marks out of 10 then ;D



> Now can we lynch someone? ;D


It looks like some potential members of the 'self righteous lynch mob' can't be arsed to read or write more than three lines, so yep, to finish this thread off, we need a scapegoat .....

[smiley=gossip.gif]

[smiley=behead.gif]


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