# Bilstein, or KW? . . . 3.2



## Antthony (Jul 29, 2016)

Hi lads, am looking at suspension for my soon to be collected 8N 3.2 DSG and would like some experience based advice. I have set up many cars for the track, rally and road over the years, but am a noob when it comes to TT's.
The car is a 2005 and only has 30,000 miles on it and is pretty much like new.

I have got some good information from Steve (V6RUL) and he's been very helpful, but before I make a choice I would like to throw it out there to see what others have to say as well because it is (to me) a big decision and whatever I hear there will be a lot of pondering before I actually purchase, but i'd rather ask here than ask the people selling them
Steve mentioned that the KWs have a bit more height adjustability in the rear so am leaning that way at the moment although I would probably only go 25mm, 30mm at the most so it _might_ not be an issue for me. I also have heard several times over the years that Bilsteins have a bit of a high failure rate (have never used them before myself though).

I have pretty much narrowed it down to Billy B14 or B16, or the KW versions 1 or 2 for now at least.
Use will be primarily road miles, and up to 10 track days a year (not just happy laps, fairly 'serious', and on mostly flat tracks). I want it responsive, but don't want it to 'feel like a race car' in normal driving (if I wanted that I would be keeping my Evo). I also will retain all interior trim so something that can't be adjusted in this situation is useless.

Price for me for the B14 is nearly *half* that of the B16 and likewise for the KW versions 1 and 2, but I don't mind paying for the B16 / Version 2 IF it is definitely worth it. 
On some cars the bump rebound adjustability makes a big difference, but on other cars it only does if you run slicks and very hard spring rates. I don't know which the TT is.

Which is better and why? 

Cheers.


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## Matt B (Apr 8, 2007)

I have Bilstein on my RS and KW clubsport on my mk1.

For me it would be KW every time. The Bilsteins both failed on the front shocks and needed rebuilding and all the blue came off the springs and I had to get them powder coated.

The KW on the other hand have aged much better. I also like the fluid reserve on the rear shocks


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## Von Twinzig (Feb 10, 2014)

KW's over the Billies every time, but check out Gaz Gold's too. UK manufacturer, adjustable, choice of sping rates and rebuildable. Favoured by club racers here. Good rep.

VT


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## Antthony (Jul 29, 2016)

Thanks guys. 
Leaning towards the KW version 1 at this point as I find it hard to justify paying almost double for the version 2 even though I had kind of budgeted that much, or almost that much again for the version 3. The money can perhaps be spent elsewhere.

I recall on my Evo when setting up the suspension with Ohlins, yes having bump and rebound adjustability did make big differences to how the car felt on the track, but truth be told the lap times did not change _that_ much at all :roll: , with the biggest suspension tuning gains being made with rake adjustment. So I can't see adjustable damping being worth it on a full weight 3.2 not running slicks or semi slicks. Spring rates are I feel going to be more important, and lowering just the right amount, combined with rake adjustment may just well suffice (all just theory in my case at this point of course).

I have emailed asking KW what the rates are on the version 1, and 2 respectively and will make a decision I think when I get a reply on that. _If_ the version 2 are harder, I may even request version 2 springs on a set of version 1 if the factory damping will handle it, well see anyway 

Still thinking about it obviously, but this is kind of where i'm at now.

Cheers.


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## Rotoryboy (Mar 23, 2016)

What about the KW Clubsports?


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## Antthony (Jul 29, 2016)

Rotoryboy said:


> What about the KW Clubsports?


Those would be overkill on a road car used at the track.


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## Von Twinzig (Feb 10, 2014)

One thing, having had both single and double adjustable setups inc KW Clubsport...unless you've got a pit crew, double adjustables are a pain. I have single adjustables now and have a road setting to get there, plus a dry and wet setting depending on conditions. It takes me 2 mins to flip between them if conditions change. If I were racing and trailering the car things may be different, but mine's a track car that gets driven to the event, plus I'm not chasing 2/10th's, I'm there to have fun. I do however tweek either front or rear a few clicks from my starting position if I think it would help. Simple enough with 36 single clicks from hard to soft.

Just my experience you understand.

VT


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## NickG (Aug 15, 2013)

Von Twinzig said:


> One thing, having had both single and double adjustable setups inc KW Clubsport...unless you've got a pit crew, double adjustables are a pain. I have single adjustables now and have a road setting to get there, plus a dry and wet setting depending on conditions. It takes me 2 mins to flip between them if conditions change. If I were racing and trailering the car things may be different, but mine's a track car that gets driven to the event, plus I'm not chasing 2/10th's, I'm there to have fun. I do however tweek either front or rear a few clicks from my starting position if I think it would help. Simple enough with 36 single clicks from hard to soft.
> 
> Just my experience you understand.
> 
> VT


Out of interest, is your 'Road' setting softer or harder than 'Wet'?


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## Von Twinzig (Feb 10, 2014)

NickG said:


> Von Twinzig said:
> 
> 
> > One thing, having had both single and double adjustable setups inc KW Clubsport...unless you've got a pit crew, double adjustables are a pain. I have single adjustables now and have a road setting to get there, plus a dry and wet setting depending on conditions. It takes me 2 mins to flip between them if conditions change. If I were racing and trailering the car things may be different, but mine's a track car that gets driven to the event, plus I'm not chasing 2/10th's, I'm there to have fun. I do however tweek either front or rear a few clicks from my starting position if I think it would help. Simple enough with 36 single clicks from hard to soft.
> ...


Harder than wet, but closer to the wet end of the scale, so not in the middle. I accidentally drove home one time with the dry track settings still in place. It was appalling. I eventually twigged what was wrong, pulled into a garage and adjusted them to the road setting.

VT


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## Antthony (Jul 29, 2016)

Von Twinzig said:


> One thing, having had both single and double adjustable setups inc KW Clubsport...unless you've got a pit crew, double adjustables are a pain. I have single adjustables now and have a road setting to get there, plus a dry and wet setting depending on conditions. It takes me 2 mins to flip between them if conditions change. If I were racing and trailering the car things may be different, but mine's a track car that gets driven to the event, plus I'm not chasing 2/10th's, I'm there to have fun. I do however tweek either front or rear a few clicks from my starting position if I think it would help. Simple enough with 36 single clicks from hard to soft.
> 
> Just my experience you understand.
> 
> VT


Thanks. Yes I agree. I have been doing similar with my Evo for the last 7 years with the Ohlins.

While I will be chasing 10ths once the car is basically sorted and I am properly used to it, I _won't_ be running slicks, and _probably_ will never run semi slicks on this car either, so triple adjustable dampers would just be silly. Even double adjustable is seemingly still overkill, and you have reinforced that as well. 
So I just need to decide whether it is worth paying around an extra 80% more for single adjustable, or just go with the KW V1's (or whatever I decide to get)


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## Von Twinzig (Feb 10, 2014)

Before you pull the trigger do call the guys at Gaz in the UK and have a chat with them. I found them to be the most real world technically helpful people on this side of the pond. I think you could get a properly valved setup, with the correct spring rates for your intended application with single point adjustment for final tweeking, all for not not much more than a standard off the shelf generic KW setup.

I've bought KW double adjustables for my previous car and really struggled to even get any starting positions for them from either the UK or German tech depts. In truth I was never really happy with them. Quality was superb though.

VT


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## 1781cc (Jan 25, 2015)

just out of curiosity, what involved in your adjustment process? are you talking damper adjustment from the top or getting out in a garage, taking the wheels off and using the C-spanner as well?? ha ha

I only ask because i've got basic FK Coilovers on the car and they have and will serve me well enough for the moment, but they feel too soft and not progressive enough overall, I am sure I could have a better setup down the line, but this whole track stuff is new to me and my first experience was when I bought the car, so its a steep learning curve to attain knowledge.

I will however concur on the build quality of the KW V1s, I ordered and had those fitted to my audi cabriolet, amazingly well crafted pieces of kit, gorgeous to look at and the damping was the perfect mix of soft/hard to its application (which was lowering the car and not scraping the "stretched" 10J alloy/tyre combo on the arches - simple brief really.

A mate runs KW V3s on his G60 corrado race car and swears by them


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## Antthony (Jul 29, 2016)

1781cc said:


> ...this whole track stuff is new to me and my first experience was when I bought the car, so its a steep learning curve to attain knowledge.
> I will however concur on the build quality of the KW V1s, I ordered and had those fitted to my audi cabriolet, amazingly well crafted pieces of kit, gorgeous to look at and the damping was the perfect mix of soft/hard to its application (which was lowering the car and not scraping the "stretched" 10J alloy/tyre combo on the arches - simple brief really.


Yeah setting up for track is a different ballgame to fast road, or even Tarmac rally. My previous cars have been set up without regard for 'comfort', but as I don't want to compromise too much with this one, it is making the decision much harder :? [smiley=book2.gif]
If it was a track only car the choices would be much easier!
Setting up the bump and rebound is really the last step after getting the spring rates right, tyre choice right, and the rake right (regardless of car type) and is basically fine tuning to suit driving style and or the surface you are driving on. It can be a real pain though as VT mentioned, and especially if you run on quite different surfaces, it can take a very long time to sort the right settings for each one. Then if you change tyre type or something else you often have to start all over again. After having gone through this 'fun' for a few years, it would be nice to have something a bit more 'set and forget' for a while lol. The point I guess is is it possible to get damping that is not too harsh on the street, but firm enough for the track. At the end of the day whatever I choose it's going to be a gamble I guess and we won't have the real answer until they are on the car.
I still think at this point the main deciding factor in which I actually go for will be spring rates. Am still waiting to hear back from a few suppliers and will also contact GAZ also 

I guess the ideal info for me at this point would be from someone who has taken their car to the track standard, and then with the KW v1 (or similar) and can quote improvements in lap times :lol:


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## Von Twinzig (Feb 10, 2014)

Agreed. It's an holistic approach and can be frustrating beyond belief. In a perfect world you set or have set the ride heights first including a base rake setup, then the corner weights and finally the alignment. Then that just leaves the dynamic part with the dampers and maybe an adjustable ARB (if you have one) for final trimming. I had all this guff on a road/track aircooled 911. Before I blew my brains out with frustration I took it and had it setup by an ex WRC/f1 Motorsports builder I know. That just left me some tweaking on the track, but on your own as a newbie even that can be tricky.

The spring rates on my track TT are not high enough. I could probably buy a stiffer set, but then I'd need to work those in with revised valving. The rears are not height adjustable as I have the adjusters out, so proper corner weighting is impossible, and I know from experience what a positive effect that has always had on my track cars. Bit frustrating really.

VT


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## Madmax199 (Jun 14, 2015)

Very interesting thread/world where KW v1 are praised over Bilstein inverted monos. Grabbing the popcorn!


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## Antthony (Jul 29, 2016)

Madmax199 said:


> Very interesting thread/world where KW v1 are praised over Bilstein inverted monos. Grabbing the popcorn!


I asked for any input and advice, if you have some please do share. Helps everyone interested in this not just me


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## Antthony (Jul 29, 2016)

Well, I talked to Audi, they can't tell me what the spring rates are in my car, and they said even if I contact Audi in Germany it will likely takes months to get an answer, IF I get an answer 

I called the local Bilstein head office to ask what the max spring rates I can use in the B16 are, and they said nothing as it will void the warranty and they are designed for street use. Mmkay. . .

So despite the ease of use the Bilsteins provide with the single bump/rebound adjustment, again this pulls me back to looking at KW's but they use more than double the spring rates the Bilsteins and many others do. Nobody anywhere seems to have a clue what is right, this normally simple process is turning into an absolute nightmare lol. I can get custom made coil overs, but again the right sort of spring rates is the issue.
With other makes there will always be some variance in what people recommend BUT there always seem to be ballpark figures that you can work off of. With the TT there seems to be absolutely nothing at all.

Surely there is _somebody_ out there who has experimented with different spring rates on a Quattro for Road and Track use!?


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## NickG (Aug 15, 2013)

I run GAZ golds on Spring rates of 500lbs front, 800lbs rear. These are perhaps a tad hard for the road, GAZ will do whatever you want though for Spring rates so maybe try 350 front 550 rear?!


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## Antthony (Jul 29, 2016)

Thanks for the reply Nick.

So as a basic rule of thumb (which is the main thing I am trying to determine at the moment) is that with the Quattro, 1.8 or 3.2 probably not so different, is that you need harder springs in the rear correct?


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## NickG (Aug 15, 2013)

That's correct, due to motion ratios, the front is 0.97 and the rear 0.63 so;

500 x 0.97 = 485lbs effective wheel rate
800 x 0.63 = 504lbs effective wheel rate

As you can see it will give basically an even rate front to rear, which is what you want!


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## Antthony (Jul 29, 2016)

Ok so, the KW rates for example at 390lb front and 632lb rear, are going to be far better than the Bilsteins for example at 390lb front and 307lb rear correct?


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## Von Twinzig (Feb 10, 2014)

This was the problem I too faced. Here's my 2 cents.

I have the first Meister-R's made for our cars. The rates are what they came with.

Front 11kg
Rear 7kg

These are fine for the road and _okay_ for the track. If I'm honest I'd go way stiffer now, but at the time these were all they had for our cars. I think they offer a range now.

NickG is going with higher rates in his Gaz Golds, but his car will be trailered to the track.

Max is running significantly stiffer, but he's doing competitive track work.

VT

Edit: see Nick has posted.. :roll:


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