# Harman Kardon in a BMW 3 Conv



## jam (May 8, 2002)

At Â£650, is it worth the extra money over

a)the standard system
b)the hi fi speaker system (Â£470)

cheers

James


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## head_ed (Dec 10, 2002)

Never heard the standard, but PJ has the HK in her 330 CI Cab.

Sounds good, but IMHO, nowhere near as good as the BOSE did in my TTR.

Mart.


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## head_ed (Dec 10, 2002)

Take no notice of him indoors James, I think it's bloody brilliant! 

Paula


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

Not heard it in the cab, but have had it in the coupe and touring and can confirm it sounds far better than any Bose installation that I have had or driven (SLK, TT, RS4, A4Q).

Worth every penny - and once you add that active sub, it's an even bigger improvement.

Go for it. Or at least listen with and without. Not having seen the Cab fit, I should imagine it suffers from same probelm as stnd Touring HK fit - rear speakers too small at 4" which compromises the mid bass (proper bass in non hi fi speak ). This is due to the load area in Touring and roof mech in cab. The Coupe and Saloon both have 6*9" eliptical rears in the parcel shelf, which makes a big difference.

Hence ny fitting an active sub in boot of mine to beef things up. Works fine. Not true Hi Fi but streets ahead of Bose. Trust me on this.


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## head_ed (Dec 10, 2002)

Trust bloody BMW drivers to stick together.. *mumble, mumble*


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## jam (May 8, 2002)

Cheers for the replies, will go and have a listen when(if) the time comes to make the choice!

cheers

James


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## TonyC (Sep 3, 2002)

Hi James,

I have the Harmon/Kardon in my 330. I looked for a car with it fitted regardless, having had Bose in my last 3 Audis (A4, TT, A4).

IMHO, it is both better & worse than the Bose setups :-/

The absolute sound quality is superior, however, it isn't happy at higher volumes with bass heavy music. I

If you are a bass-freak & like music loud, then I think you'll find it pants :

As an aside, the standard speakers are pretty grim. I haven't heard the BMW "HiFi" speakers though.

HTH,

Cheers,

Tony


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## jam (May 8, 2002)

> Hi James,
> 
> I have the Harmon/Kardon in my 330. I looked for a car with it fitted regardless, having had Bose in my last 3 Audis (A4, TT, A4).
> 
> ...


would possibly be tempted to skip the hk and get a decent amp and replace all the speakers in the convertible with some nice expensive clear bassy numbers

would an amp run ok from the standard bmw h/u or would it be a matter of upgrading that also?

cheers

James


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

> would possibly be tempted to skip the hk and get a decent amp and replace all the speakers in the convertible with some nice expensive clear bassy numbers
> 
> would an amp run ok from the standard bmw h/u or would it be a matter of upgrading that also?
> 
> ...


James,

I'd fundamentaly disagree with this approach. I checked out HK in a cab yesterday, and it has the same problem as the Touring with bass compared to HK in the Coupe/Saloon. That is you only have relatively small rear cones because of hood space. Putting differnet speakers in limits you to the same cone size (4" rears) and that is the limiting factor. HK Cones/magnets are pretty good anyway. You will end up spending more than the Â£600 HK (which includes additional amplification) for little gain and NO EXTRA meaningful bass. Unless you are prepared to have extra holes cut etc for bigger rear cones, which I don't do.

I think you'll end up spending more for less return by modding the standard non HK set up, which is underwhelming to say the least.

When I got the Touring after 2 coupes I was initially disappointed with the 'punch' and mid bass compared to same option in Coupe. I spent Â£300 on a Pioneer active sub that is the sixe of a small gymn bag and sits in boot. It transforms the sound at the lower end filling in all the low bits. The mid and tope end is still vastly superior to the boxy compressed sound on the Audi Bose.

Listen to an HK in the Coupe and then Cab before you decide to build from scratch. I don't know where you are located, but you are welcome to check out mine if it is convenient.

cheers
gary


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## jam (May 8, 2002)

Thanks for your views Gary, I'll have a thin on it.

I'm up in sunny Leeds so a demo is a bit off the cards!

Thanks anyway mate

Cheers

James


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## r1 (Oct 31, 2002)

Hmmmm, I'm still not overly impressed with the HK in my coupe. I had the concert in my TT so I can't make a direct comparison to the Bose but I must say that I really don't think the HK is significantly better. However, a side by side test might prove me wrong as memory does play tricks on you sometimes.

Don't get me wrong, the HK is a reasonable system...untill you crank it up a bit then it lacks a bit of substance IMO. I'm certainly considering some kind of sub to enhance the bass but I'm not too sure how effective it would be. The system seems to lack 'punch' which larger cones can only usually provide.

New years resolution #1 - get down the local ICE garage and get it sorted.


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## nutts (May 8, 2002)

The problem most people make is putting all the bass in the rear of a car. Very strange!

Having decided NOT to go Bose in my TTC, I am so pleased I didn't. Having heard plenty of Bose installs, including my wifes A3, my TTC is streets ahead.

My advice would be go for the base install, then upgrade the HU, a smallish 4 channel amp. Then MOST important get a pair of good quality components with a deep magnet. Go as big as the door will allow (cutting the door is your choice... I didn't). Then buy a good pair of co-axials for rear in-fill. You may even find you do not need to replace the rears... and the can bridge the rear channels to power a sub if you want to in the future. A pair of 6"x9" speakers will generate as much bass as a 10" sub.

This is the way I've gone and I am very happy.

If you want to listen James, let me know and I'll pop round 

The advantage is you get a decent HU (MP3, track and album titles, etc). I spent about Â£700, but fitted it all myself.

Kenwood Z838 HU
Focal components 17cm
Alpine 4x40 Amp (not big, but it is clever )
Kenwood 17cm co-axial rears

Oh and I took advantage and used OF 79 strand speaker cabling. Â ;D


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

> The problem most people make is putting all the bass in the rear of a car. Very strange!
> 
> Having decided NOT to go Bose in my TTC, I am so pleased I didn't. Having heard plenty of Bose installs, including my wifes A3, my TTC is streets ahead.
> 
> ...


It all makes sense for a TT - until you mentioned MP3, of which I have yet to hear a convincing player in car compared to a similar priced CD solution. Â The acoustics in a BMW are markedly different to that of the small-cabined TTC.

The BMW already comes with nice component fronts (16cm) and neat tweeters on inside of wing mirror mounts. Â HK specs 3 way 6*9 component rears also for coupes, but only 2 way 4" cones for the cab. HK amplification pushes 200 watts and comes with an Alpine-based CD changer. Â So you are already getting most of your kit list, in many parts superior, already installed, with the benefits of full steering wheel and display controls that you will probably lose if you go the diy route.

6*9 rears do not give more bass than Â a 10" sub, although they will give better mid bass, there will never be the true extension that you can get with a bigger cone moving more air. Â The reason people install bass in rear is simple - even if it isn't ported, the boot cavity acts as an enclosure.

I ripped out the Bose in the S4 and replaced with a full component system with sub etc which was great, but I had to get it installed and de-installed which costs in addition to the Â£1500 I spent.

For Â£650 the HK is good value and low effort plus easily upgradeable in the bass punch dept.

Whilst I have had Audi Bose, BMW HK and custom in various cars, as have others here. Â Very few get to listen to them side by side such as your Mrs A3, and you can tend to remember a sound as your base for comparison. Â So yesterday I pulled along side my colleagues Bose equipped A4 quattro with the HK-fitted tractor for sound off. Â Demo disc was Dandy Warhols 'Monkey House' Â track 2. Â 3 listeners.

Results: Â Bose A4 - more punch (bass loudness) than HK (sub off) but not as sweet (clear and unshrill) as HK on vocals and mid/high notes. Â Boxed in sound. Does not go as loud.

BMW HK (no sub) clearer open sound, less bottom end, bass decays (fades) faster than Bose. Â Rear cones run out of steam at high levels.

BMW HK with sub. As above but with 200w 10" active sub taking strain, component speakers are freer to get on with the music. Â Fullest, most open sound, bass controlled, massive volume compared to others. Â Full on streets above A4 Bose. X over and roll off needs tweaking on sub.

Â£650 No brainer. Â Â£300 for sub fitted. Â Sub works perfectly in a sealed boot too as bass is not directional.


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## jam (May 8, 2002)

I think a custom install might be the way to go. The HK system would add Â£650 to the price and therefore make it just out of my reach so I can add to it at a later date

Would the h/u need upgrading if I was going to go with an amp and set of really good components or would this be compensated for by installing a good amp?

cheers

James


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## TonyC (Sep 3, 2002)

I agree with GaryC - same conclusions as me about the sound quality, but worded better 

Another reason I went for the HK, is that I like to keep my cars as standard as poss. I'm wary of rattles generated by poor aftermarket fitment, broken trim etc & would steer clear of buying a car with aftermarket audio (having seen some grim fitments, but that's just me)

It is also worth noting, that HK audio makes the car more desirable used. I don't generally keep them long, so aftermarket audio would be a depreciation nightmare.

HST, I'm quite tempted by a sub to improve the bass quality. The battery is in the boot, so fitting should be pretty easy 

Cheers,

Tony

BTW, BMW use balanced cables for all the audio, rather than single-ended. An excellent, low-noise engineering solution, but it makes it more tricky if you want to add amps, change head units etc.


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

> I think a custom install might be the way to go. Â The HK system would add Â£650 to the price and therefore make it just out of my reach so I can add to it at a later date
> 
> Would the h/u need upgrading if I was going to go with an amp and set of really good components or would this be compensated for by installing a good amp?
> 
> ...


Then budget on at least a Â£1000 to get similar quality. The stock 'Business' HU will definately need replacing, as it is on the budget end of ICE, relatively speaking. All the amps, expensive speakers, crossovers etc, can onlt but amplify and magnify the front end quality. This money will not be recoverable on resale, and used ICE in 2 years will be worth diddly. People like OEM fit on used market.

I think you would be on a false economy, but that's only my view.


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## jam (May 8, 2002)

It's a company car though and I'm at my spending limit

I'm buggered if I'm sacrificing leather seats for the stereo

I'll put the system in myself later out of my own pocket, think thats the only way I can do it.

Cheers

james


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

> It's a company car though and I'm at my spending limit
> 
> I'm buggered if I'm sacrificing leather seats for the stereo
> 
> ...


Ah, that's different. Although half leather sport seats are cheaper than full leather and look just as good imho. I'd actually take the stereo over the hide, but I do listen a lot.

Also we are expressly not allowed to modify co cars stereos - but of course I did.

Can you go for HK but not the 6 disc changer - which is easy to add later as it's pre wired?


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## jam (May 8, 2002)

still means i will be over the limit, the changer is only Â£250 but the hk is Â£650

gonna have to sacrifice i think, hey ho!

hardly like i'm being hard done to being able to get that as a company car so can't grumble! 

cheers

James


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

> still means i will be over the limit, the changer is only Â£250 but the hk is Â£650
> 
> gonna have to sacrifice i think, hey ho!
> 
> ...


Yep 330 cab is a very nice co car to be endowed with (in spite of what some around here might say). Shame it doesn't come with the pokey diesel motor.


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