# Future Performance Diesels



## garyc (May 7, 2002)

As a recent oil burner convert, I started thinking about the progress that has been made over last Â years in true performance diesel units:

BMW now has a 218hp 3.0 six
Audi had a 220hp 3.0 V6 tdi in wings
Jaguar has a 2.7 225 V6 diesel coming
Alpha is planning a 250hp derv next gen 156
VW has its stalwart 1.9 tdi giving 150 hp
Audi has the 2.0 fsi tdi ready with 160hp
and a new in line 5 with 175hp ready for next golf

Honda (world's largest petrol engine manufacturer) finally embraced diesels.

And Steve Mc tells us that Toyota are applying petrol engine desgin gurus to new diesel design.

Oh, and I hear that Audi are going to enter a diesel in the next Le Mans 24hr race (can anyone confirm)

So, where will be and how will it look in 5 years. Â 100+ hp per litre petrol engines are now common place. Â I reckon 2.0L 200 hp, 50 mpg 4 pots diesels that do 50 mpg will be the norm in 5 years. Â And in the performance compact exec and coupe market we'll see 300hp derv burners before too long.

500ft lbs of torque will not be that exceptional.

And what of the tuners? Â Already 20-30% improvements in power/torque are readily available - and they work just fine ;D

Your thoughts?


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## gcp (Aug 8, 2002)

Isn't the forthcoming Alfa engine another buy in from VM as the 2.5 TD 164 was ?

Although could be a joint Fiat/GM product.


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## Steve_Mc (May 6, 2002)

When I said Toyota, I meant Honda. Sorry, had a brain fart.

But the question you pose is an interesting one. An Alpina diesel is no longer a ridiculous suggestion.


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## gcp (Aug 8, 2002)

In AutoCar a while back they were asking BMW if any future M cars would drink diesel.

The answer was a catagoric no though they said plenty more performance would come from diesels.


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## BreTT (Oct 30, 2002)

> 500ft lbs of torque will not be that exceptional.
> 
> And what of the tuners? Â Already 20-30% improvements in power/torque are readily available - and they work just fine ;D
> 
> Your thoughts?


Current Merc 3.2 CDi engine has 500ft lbs of torque "out the box" already. The strides that have been made with diesels over the past three or four years is stunning. The last diesel I had was a 3.0TD unit out of a big Toyota and whilst it could pull up tree stumps, it was not particularly performant.

Test driving the "next generation" Diesel engine that is in my burrd's RAV4 was an eye opener a year or so ago, and got me to look at the diesels again. Now back in one myself and very happy with the combination of luxury at an affordable price at the pump. Â


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

> In AutoCar a while back they were asking BMW if any future M cars would drink diesel.
> 
> The answer was a catagoric no though they said plenty more performance would come from diesels.


And the reason the new 3.0 diesel is only 204hp when the same engine produces 218hp in 5 and 7series, is that BM product planners didn't wnat the 330i and M3 to be embarrassed.

Bit like the first S3 having 210 hp to the TTs 225.

I do however think that the m cars are about handling, brakes, balance and power - the whole package, and the diesels do tend to carry a little more weight up front spoiling the handling finesse.

I'm sure that if Alpina, Schnitzer, Haartge etc set their minds to it, they could produce far more than just a chip/tuning box upgrade for the oil burners though.....


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

> Current Merc 3.2 CDi engine has 500ft lbs of torque "out the box" already. The strides that have been made with diesels over the past three or four years is stunning. The last diesel I had was a 3.0TD unit out of a big Toyota and whilst it could pull up tree stumps, it was not particularly performant.
> 
> Test driving the "next generation" Diesel engine that is in my burrd's RAV4 was an eye opener a year or so ago, and got me to look at the diesels again. Now back in one myself and very happy with the combination of luxury at an affordable price at the pump. Â


Hi Brett,

(Sat here waiting for year end eva orders to reconfigure to new part nos )

Yu got your nms and ft/lbs mixed up.

500nm = 368 ft/lbs torque (500* 0.7376) respectable though. 

Forgot about the MB prowess in diesels. the e320 cdi doesn't hang around and Brabus remap it to 220hp I believe. The S class probably is not much slower on the road. Thought about modding yours?

Apart from the Mothercare extension of course 

Sprog and woman OK?


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## raven (May 7, 2002)

What about the massive diesel in the VW four wheel drive car (can't remember the name). Now that is a monster. 

I'm actually quite looking forward to when I get a "sensible" car, and trying a few diesels. Have always had my eye on the new E class estate with the 3.2 diesel engine.


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## BreTT (Oct 30, 2002)

> Hi Brett,
> 
> (Sat here waiting for year end eva orders to reconfigure to new part nos Â )
> 
> ...


Oh bugger! Either way, I impressed some of our fellow workers last night on the way to a go karting night....then scared the pants off them on the way home by trying to drive the S Class like a go kart... :

I've been very impressed at how nimble the big car is - my only complaint would be the brakes. They could definitely do with some attention. The car itself has another 8 months worth of MB warranty and then.... ;D

Sprog and woman just fine - still not sleeping through the night but hey ho!


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## BreTT (Oct 30, 2002)

> What about the massive diesel in the VW four wheel drive car (can't remember the name). Now that is a monster.
> 
> I'm actually quite looking forward to when I get a "sensible" car, and trying a few diesels. Have always had my eye on the new E class estate with the 3.2 diesel engine.


Is that the Toureg? That would be a 5 litre V10!!! It would probably make a fantastic second hand buy, not sure about new though.

I very nearly went for the new E Class Estate - only put off by the fact that if I put my order in during July, my local dealer was expecting that I should be able to take delivery January or February next year!

Did test drive the car though and it is very nice. That engine is extremely well mated to the E Class and the estate itself is really well thought out. Plenty of space for the Mothercare stuff....


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## BreTT (Oct 30, 2002)

> (Sat here waiting for year end eva orders to reconfigure to new part nos Â )


Got my first EVA order based on the new part numbers today.... ;D Better yet, can't deliver until November... ;D ;D


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

> Got my first EVA order based on the new part numbers today.... ;D Better yet, can't deliver until November... ;D ;D


Nightmare  It's hitting me in the pocket. Care to put your order thru CC


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## BreTT (Oct 30, 2002)

> Nightmare  Â It's hitting me in the pocket. Â Care to put your order thru CC


Not for this customer....direct.....


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## TJS (May 6, 2002)

I happened to be in Frankfurt recently and attended the Motor show for a couple of hours following a business meeting and was surprised by the large capacity diesels offerred by BMW (7 series) and Audi (A8) that are not currently available in the UK ... V8 turbo diesels with something like 250 bhp .. aimed at the high speed long distance executive market.

Hopefully, its only a matter of time before these engines pitch up in the UK in a "sportier" downsized range ie 5 series and A6. Unless the UK importers fear direct competition with the UK pertrol performance models will hit sales ...

Big fan of the BMW 3 litre turbo diesel, currently on my third, however the new corporate BMW styling of the 7 and 5 series is awful ... after 20 years of BMWs my 330d leaves next week to be replaced by a Merc


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## BreTT (Oct 30, 2002)

> Big fan of the BMW 3 litre turbo diesel, currently on my third, however the new corporate BMW styling of the 7 and 5 series is awful ... after 20 years of BMWs my 330d leaves next week to be replaced by a Merc


Which model have you gone for? I never used to be a Merc fan but over the last six or so years, they have come a long way and now produce some really nice motors. I don't think you'll be disappointed...


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## TJS (May 6, 2002)

Brett,

It was a close call between a CLK 320 Avantgarde Coupe and a 320 cdi E class saloon. The price, with options, is pretty much the same .. went for the CLK which was available within 2 weeks compared to 2 months for the E class. The V6 petrol engine is smooth and quiet and the ride supple ... don't really need a sports set up. That's what the TT is for.

The thing is I really did want to like the new 5 series ... the drive train in 530d format is very good but the styling is something I can't live with. The ride on the demonstrator wasn't exactly smooth ... something to do with run flat tyres on the optional alloys ... "normal" tyres were not available. I can see BMW UK backtracking on this if sales dont take off ...


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## BreTT (Oct 30, 2002)

> Brett,
> 
> It was a close call between a CLK 320 Avantgarde Coupe and a 320 cdi E class saloon. The price, with options, is pretty much the same .. went for the CLK which was available within 2 weeks compared to 2 months for the E class. The V6 petrol engine is smooth and quiet and the ride supple ... don't really need a sports set up. Â That's what the TT is for.
> 
> The thing is I really did want to like the new 5 series ... the drive train in 530d format is very good but the styling is something I can't live with. The ride on the demonstrator wasn't exactly smooth ... something to do with run flat tyres on the optional alloys ... "normal" tyres were not available. Â I can see BMW UK backtracking on this if sales dont take off ...


My car before the TT was the old shape CLK - I really enjoyed it. I test drove the new CLK when they first came out and was a little disappointed - it was the 240 which I thought was way underpowered. Then when I'd decided I wanted to swap the TT, there was a baby on the way, so the burrd vetoed the CLK as "there is no point in swapping one two door car for another". :-/

I know what you mean with the new 5 series. I saw one in the flesh today - I could live with the front, but the back looks like a reworked Peugot 406! [smiley=knife.gif]


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