# Market Place Security Poll



## Nem

With all of the unhappiness with the current regulations surrounding the market place the only thing we can do is to run a poll for all forum members to vote in.

There are a couple of options to consider:

Option 1 - Keep things the way they are now, ie members with a low post count cannot see the market place at all, and can also not send pm's. TTOC membership *has a benefit* of having market place and pm access.

Option 2 - Keep things the way they are now, ie members with a low post count cannot see the market place at all, and can also not send pm's. TTOC membership *has no benefit* of having market place and pm access so all forum users are the same.

Option 3 - Keep the parts for sale and items wanted closed to new members, but open up the cars for sale section to all. Open up pm's for all to enable everyone to contact sellers of cars. TTOC membership *still has access* to full market place.

Option 4 - Keep the parts for sale and items wanted closed to new members, but open up the cars for sale section to all. Open up pm's for all to enable everyone to contact sellers of cars. TTOC membership *has no extra access* to full market place.

Option 5 - Remove the security so all forum users can see the market place and use pm's. Display a disclaimer that if any problem arises with a sale the forum has no responsibility.

If you can please vote for your preference* but to also post just to say you have voted*. You don't have to state your vote but it will give us an idea of what type of members have voted. IT may be that mostly new members will vote to have no security to help them, but also the established members might be voting after seeing the problems we've had before to keep it in place.

Thanks.


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## Mark Davies

I'd keep it as it is Nick. If you're being open and honest then why the rush to get onto the market place? If there is some reason you need to get on then it can be done by joining the TTOC which at least shows some commitment and gives the club a bit more information with which to deal with any issues.

I can understand how it's less likely that someone coming along to either buy or sell a car will be a scammer, but it's far from impossible - and with the higher values of money involved the risks are much greater, so I don't see the sense in reducing the levels of protection.


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## YELLOW_TT

Voted number 1


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## glslang

Voted number 3. I feel buying a car with the higher cost involved should make people be more aware and conscientious of their purchase. Been scammed a few times, and always refunded by Ebay, but I don't particularly think the TTOC should get involved as mediator.

Perhaps number 1 can be enforced in TTOC's member area and perhaps that's a better window for members to sell their cars. But unless TTF belongs to TTOC, number 1 is taking on too much responsibility imho.


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## brittan

I'd like to see the cars for sale section opened up to all.
This would be advantageous to sellers in giving another way of marketing their car; one which directly targets people who perhaps are looking for their first TT (and therefore don't have one to sell/PX) and who reason that buying from a club/forum member should get them an enthusiast owned car with the attendant benefits.
This would also address the comments from people who have come to the forum with the above clearly in mind.

Since a car purchase would (should) mean a visit to the seller by the buyer I see no difference in the risk to either party if the car is advertised on this forum or Auto Trader, PH or any other on-line medium.

Awkwardly though, I believe that withholding access to the PM function to new forum members is still a right and proper thing to do and one which adds significantly to the level of protection against scammers.

What is the view of the forum owners on this issue? TTFAdmin seems to have taken a long step backwards.

I haven't voted - yet.


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## Gizmo68

Voted 5

All members should be able to view, PM and buy.
Only established members can (post an advert) sell items.

How the established member is decided should be PLAIN FOR ALL TO SEE, if it's *X *amount of posts then fine, but tell the membership what this number is!! 
IMO 50 posts would be a fair number.


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## Hoggy

Hi, Option 1.
Hoggy.


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## John-H

PM access is the means by which most scams were performed, playing confidence tricks on members they spotted wanting parts or services. We could not monitor this. Newbie instant access to this facility is an opportunist scammers dream - taking advantage of member's trust in this community. Once we had reports of fraud we could ban a scammer but they would instantly re-join with a new and unknown user name and start again. A delay or minimum post count stops this happening!

Verified TTOC members are a low risk to the forum community because their identity, address and bank details are checked and verified - coming with that is the care of ownership - an asset to a buyer.

Involvement by contribution to the forum is what makes this forum so good. It stands to reason that the established and experienced member majority should speak on this issue. This forum is the result of your input.


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## ElmerTT

Option 1


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## ElmerTT

Option 1


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## Phil_RS

As it was something I mentioned in the other post, voted 3. Going to be less likely that you can be scammed when buying/selling a car.

Only reservation is if there is a better option than giving pm acces to contact seller? Open those posts to comments?


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## sbd119

Hi

Have voted for Option 1

sbd119


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## nate42

Voted.


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## ian222

Voted.

I think all should see cars for sale and be able to pm about any cars they see. Would be much better to be able to comment on all posts in the for sale section, thus this is not a option.


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## dbm

Voted, posting as requested.


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## xiphon

Option 1 - and I have a low post count, yet am a TTOC member


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## TTchan

Voted option 1


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## rustyintegrale

Voted 4.

It encourages prospective members to join but also view cars for sale that they can assume have been looked after. However parts sales should retain the restrictions so that we don't get people attempting to scam.

It's easy to scam a part but not so easy to scam a car. Nobody in their right mind would part with money without viewing it and no owner would hand over the keys without the funds being in the bank. Getting to know the seller/buyer and coming to some mutually agreeable financial arrangement outside of the forum would be an acceptable way to progress a transaction for a vehicle.


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## ondafly

Hi Folks - I'm a long standing member of the site, but really only post when we've an issue with the TT always solved by John-h ! however I do browse parts from time to time, to see possible upgrades etc.

My suggestion would be to make all Market Place areas viewable to all users (including people not logged in.) This would be a benefit to the sellers (maximizes viewings, which might generate a sale). However I would block anyone with less than 50 posts, from actually posting in those sections. If someone with less than 50 posts, still wants to sell a car etc, they could pay a fee, i.e. like autotrader. There are side effects to this setup, you will get people spamming certain areas of the site, however you could take the NonTT related area, and make any posts in that area, not count to total posts. Thus removing people posting crap to get their count up.

Anyway we've/I've run this setup on a few other car sites, and its worked ok, however there is a bit extra work required for the Mods, to keep an eye on spammers, but also members as well to report obvious spam posters.

My 2 cents/pence ! Anyway I'm audi-here


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## Danny1

Voted 3 or me, if people are looking to buy a TT then they would come onto the forum looking for nice examples for sale only to find they cant view them.....

people on here trying to sell TT's to members that already have one.......

Its still safe as how can you get scammed when selling your, if your advertising it more than likely will be on pistonheads to so if they wanted to try a scam they could off there or autotrader etc etc


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## littleRedTT

I'm probably far from the norm...been forum member long time but rarely post...3 posts and member since 2008. So I voted for 5 because I am not a spammer or scammer and don't think I should be restricted just because I use the forum more for informational purposes than socializing. Maybe a time limit rather than a post limit? I mean it would be easy to post to 50 forum topics in just a little while simple "cool" or "lol" on the jokes or flame forum...but someone who has been a forum member for say 6 months + would most likely not be a scammer. It's a hard choice...there are a lot of dishonest people out there. :?


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## Private Prozac

Thanks for the e-mail Nick. I've voted.


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## funkeman

I voted to open it up completely.... A free market helps buyers and sellers find each other quickly and effectively, with no obligation on the forum to police whatever transactions may occur between users. Use your good judgement and remember - _caveat emptor_!!


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## Rhod_TT

Voted - Not sure my true preference was there but I managed to choose one anyway.


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## Gaf

Option 1 definately


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## Bartapuce

Voted


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## aled

I've voted 3.

Been a member on this forum for about 8 months and probably logged in nearly every day to keep my finger on the pulse. I am not the type of person who decides to advise other users about big turbo's, where to put my TTOC sticker and what tyres to use, and as such I have a low post count, but am being penalised for not posting.

As an aside, I understand that these security measures have been put in place to protect the majority of users. I also find it completely rediculous however that a long standing forum member (with thousands of unhelpful and insulting posts under his or her belt) is able to post his car for sale in the Marketplace having blatantly been shown to have "adjusted" the cars mileage by circa 40,000 miles. In this instance, all the forum moderators saw fit to do was "lock the thread" after he / she had made a half hearted apology.

Seems to me that all forum moderators are interested in doing is looking after the chosen few!!


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## arlurt

Seems fair to me to keep it as is. There should be rewards for being a contributing member.


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## Dan_TT

Voted


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## Seansy

There should be a none of the above.

Edition 38 run a system, 200 post count (probably not too dissimilar to what you have) but with sales posts, there are obligatory items you need to adhere too.

Pics must be displayed on all sales items.
A sheet of paper with the date and forum name in the pics with the said items.
Contact number and or email address and area where they are based.

If the above isn't adhered to, the ad gets taken down, no questions asked.

It's taken a while but slowly it seems to be working. I hate scammers, but there are some steps we can take.

S


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## niko_kup

Voted


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## garyv6

voted option 1


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## Vickyarcher

Voted


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## A3DFU

I chose option 1.

Before the security measures were implemented there were quite a few scammers on TTF posing problems to the moderators who spent hours upon hours of their private time to deal with it.
After the current security measures were in place the "work" of scammers got more difficult. It is what TTF members wanted and I can't see any reason to go back to the time where scammers found an open door on TTF!


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## TTQ2K2

Voted.

cheers


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## nitrojane

Voted and replied as requested.


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## PaulRS3

I voted option 1.

I've been a member here for in excess of 10 years. 
It's the way most forums operate their market places.


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## phil3012

I've voted!


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## mrmagoo

voted


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## st3v3

voted and thanks for asking us, what we want, tis nice to see unlike some other Forums that simply implement with asking or wanting us to vote.


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## PAF

Voted


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## JimTheGrouse

Voted


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## wja96

Voted, option 3. It seems sensible to let potential TT owners see some of the best used cars for sale!


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## Jakalus

Voted [smiley=thumbsup.gif]


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## mattshields2004

Voted.


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## Rmfx

Voted option 4.


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## brnmurray

Voted number 1


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## Copperdragon

aled_31 said:


> I've voted 3.
> 
> Been a member on this forum for about 8 months and probably logged in nearly every day to keep my finger on the pulse. I am not the type of person who decides to advise other users about big turbo's, where to put my TTOC sticker and what tyres to use, and as such I have a low post count, but am being penalised for not posting.
> 
> As an aside, I understand that these security measures have been put in place to protect the majority of users. I also find it completely rediculous however that a long standing forum member (with thousands of unhelpful and insulting posts under his or her belt) is able to post his car for sale in the Marketplace having blatantly been shown to have "adjusted" the cars mileage by circa 40,000 miles. In this instance, all the forum moderators saw fit to do was "lock the thread" after he / she had made a half hearted apology.
> 
> Seems to me that all forum moderators are interested in doing is looking after the chosen few!!


Voted for option 3 and, with the exception of the last sentence, I am in agreement with this post.


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## Critter10

Voted.


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## TTMBTT

Voted, op.1


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## sspacie

hi im new on here and it would of been nice to see cars for sale as im looking and dont want to buy a shed


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## Matthaus

Voted, posted as requested.


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## dod

I don't qualify to see the classifieds but definitely keep them restricted to contributing members. option 1.

I'm a mod on a photography forum and the classifieds there are the area which cause us most grief, inevitably low post count, newish members.


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## Bailey

Voted


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## adey

voted


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## williammc

voted


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## blackers

Voted for option 1

Keep it as it is please


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## bennb229

Option number five for me, not been here long enough to post my car for sale, but would like to know it would go to a good home, after all a specialist forum should be where people go to buy a car they want....


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## jaca2865

I can understand fully why this issue has been raised but am uncomfortable with the way it has been asked.

Might we not all be our own guardians of our info and sales that potentially are going wrong. I dont need to be Tesco club card holder to buy in their shops, nor do i need them to tell me that when somethings feel wrong they probably are. Its called judgment and making your own judgements.

Folks will see a wider mp available to them and also extend better fellowship to newbies - yes i would say that. But im a member of two other fora - one who wraps the members in cotton wool, the other lets them fly and openly takes no wrap for things going Pete Tong.

We are a car follower club guys not a Lodge!! Secrets and such are so 1900s. Take on your own responsibility for your stuff.

Guess what i voted?? Yes, youre correct. No 5.

Jim


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## merlin c

voted 3, seems reasonable and helpful without much risk and helpful to new members..


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## YoungOldUn

Voted - Option 1


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## malTTeezer

My vote is for option 3


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## Tangerine Knight

voted option 1


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## gadget

I will be honest and say I have never owned a TT but hope to have one next year and joined here for info and to later use the market place to buy a good one.
There are more honest people than scammers out there so please remember that.

Big fan of many of your cars as up at APS quite often as known the guys up there for many years in fact one of my old projects is on there little wall of fame


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## jeffb

Voted


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## sevy

Just voted for option 3...I'm one of those with a low post count who ideally wants to buy a cherished TT from a forum member. Completely understand the need for some level of security, but from a selfish point of view I want to be able to see the cars for sale!


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## BenBAC

Voted 1, it's probably the fairest way to do things


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## Patrizio72

Has to be Option 1.


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## Shug750S

Voted [smiley=dude.gif]


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## KingMarty

I'm new to the forums.

I am looking to buy my first Audi TT and came across this forum trying to find out more about the car, any potential problems, see some photos of owners cars to see how they are being modified/enhanced, different colours, etc. So I have been browsing for a few weeks now, but only registered recently as I don't really feel like I have anything of interest/value to contribute to the community.

I have received a PM from someone however due to my 'newbie' status, I am not able to reply, so probably appear ignorant/rude.


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## ibiswhitett

Voted!


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## Jamo8

Voted, Option 1


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## missile

Voted #1, if it aint broke, don't fix it [smiley=gossip.gif]


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## Mark 2

ian222 said:


> Voted.
> 
> I think all should see cars for sale and be able to pm about any cars they see. Would be much better to be able to comment on all posts in the for sale section, thus this is not a option.


This gets my vote too


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## chilledoutman

Option 1 for me.


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## NaughTTy

Voted


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## SiHancox

Voted


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## jim

i am not on the forum that much now,but i would keep it the it is ........

cheers jim................

voted


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## Stueyturn

Voted, Option 1


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## Gizmo68

missile said:


> Voted #1, if it aint broke, don't fix it [smiley=gossip.gif]


Is that not a contradiction though?

I wonder if half the people voting for "Option 1 - Keep as is now." actually mean as it is today, or as it was a few days ago BEFORE it was actually changed already?


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## 50stillalive

I'm a newbie to the forum but like it as it is and am joining the owners clubs as I believe they will be like minded genuine people. I think that's the way most would want it and brings most benefit to all.


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## phodge

Voted


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## Derektt04

voted 1


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## kennyspaceman

Voted 8)


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## mark2ikeda

Voted Nem

I fully understand your position. The more I think about it the more I agree a post count criteria will make it more difficult for the scammers out there.

It irritates the hell out of me how easy people hand over their hard earned to complete strangers so easily....

Let me know if you need some assistance writing a disclaimer up

Best regards


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## HIRAM

Sorry don't agree entirely with the options . The nearest one which I would agree with is option one except, In my opinion you should have access to PM anyone, as many threads have shown there is a "recurring need" to contact another members privately for whatever reason.

So to sum up option one but be allowed to PM other members

Rob


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## AME

voted


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## QS Track

Voted
Qstrack 8)


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## kjgouldstone

Voted Number 1, seems most sensible


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## kiddy31

Voted in favour of status quo


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## kiddy31

Status quo


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## rustyintegrale

kiddy31 said:


> Status quo


Why? It isn't working!

That's why this poll is happening!


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## Andy Mundo

Voted...


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## fiftyish

Voted


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## igotone

I've voted for option 2. Rightly or wrongly the TTOC membership option does seem like a bit of an arm twist to gain access to the Market Place. :wink:

Having modded a huge membership board for a few years I know what a PITA Market Place threads can be to monitor for Mods and Admins - they're a huge source of potential hassle.

In principle I think that access and PM ability should be dependent on showing that you're a reasonably useful contributor to the board first and foremost - people become known in that way and are viewed as more trustworthy than people who are obviously just joining to buy and sell.

It also avoids a lot of potential argument if all transactions are transparent within the thread itself with the participants only moving to PMs once a sale and price are agreed. This avoids a lot of squabbles about who offered what and who made the first offer etc.


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## avyi

voted!


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## truant

I signed up to this community to work out whether the seductive car I was contemplating buying was a good idea. Nearly 2 years on after buying my MK1 V6 manual I still visit for advice from the generously knowledgeable whenever I have an issue, or contemplate a mod, or wonder what options for improvement have become available. This is my first post - as I'm not an expert & don't have any original TT advice. 
My default response to this kind of question is 5 - everything should be open to all & caveat emptor, so that's what I'll vote. 
BUT, I do sympathize with the mods. who devote their own time to the site, & have to cope with the consequences of this decision, & think that by virtue of putting in the time they have the right to decide what's best. Punters after all, just vote with their clicks...


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## vanboosh

Voted - I've been a member on many car forums over the years and I find that you often get scammers trying their luck on the forums with no restrictions...


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## OUTTEA

I vote option #3


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## NoMark

Vote cast.


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## Uglywon

Keep as is.


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## davy_b

Voted


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## davelincs

Voted option 1


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## ades tt 180

Voted number 1


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## shshivji

Voted option 3, I just sold my tt to a new member a week ago through the for sale section!! Really can't see the logic of limiting the cars for sale section, as most new buyers will be new members, its rediculous to restrict this!!! You may aswell remove this section!!! Its surprises me there is even a discussion about this!!

Shak


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## TT-driver

Voted, option 1. Thanks for asking.


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## skiwhiz

1 for me too, but understand the comments about the cars for sale section


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## leonttmk2

Voted


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## LordG71

Thanks Nem - I have placed my vote.

.. never going to please everyone, but I totally love the fact that you are asking the members to place their vote - definitely the right approach.

thanks
Neil


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## agentorange

Option 3.

I joined here solely to help a mate abroad source a replacement part that was proving difficult to find in his country. Asking for advice led to TTOC members giving a wealth of assistance and options with 3 members offering the part for sale. Unfortunately I couldn't PM and wasn't allowed into the Wanted section.

Out of frustration I joined the TTOC despite having no interest the the club.

As it turned out we sourced a replacement head from Germany and had it shipped over.

Net result? I wasted £15 (not blaming anyone here other than myself for that), 3 TTOC members lost out on a sale and I'm left with the impression the TTOC is a bit cliquey and not particularly welcoming of new members. I equally don't understand why you'd leave the car sales for only TTOC members - that's a pretty small target market compared to the wider world.

If you only change one thing I think your should consider enabling PMs. <>40% of the forum is asking for a change ie. haven't voted for option 1.

Perhaps consider two tier membership?

Forum Membership: Forum access to wanted and parts for £5
Full TTOC: Full forum access, market place, TTOC £15


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## Arne

Voted


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## Darthhawkeye

I have posted option 1.

I believe there is a case to allow new members to view "cars for sale" and contact only those members - after all, TT Forum is a great place for anyone looking for a TT. However, i think it would be unfair to expect people to become TTOC members BEFORE they actually OWN a TT.

On the flip side, I think the ability to post a CAR FOR SALE ad, should be a TTOC Benefit only, and therefore closed to new members etc.

I don't believe their is an option to vote for what I have posted above, therefore I posted option 1


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## Abell

Posted. 1.


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## Champagne

I am more of a dip in and out user but have found the forum advice very useful over the last few years of TT ownership and did advertise my 1st TT for sale with a low post count.
I understand the restrictions are in place to protect users but still see it as a potentially good place for buying and selling akin to pistonheads for example and could generate good traffic to the site for potential enthusiasts.


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## mr pee

I have voted 5 I do see the argument for certain restrictions but when I joined before buying my TT I could not believe I could not access the cars forsale section plus you are penalising members who have there cars forsale on hear I joined looking for a car on hear owned by an enthusiast but do agree you should not be able to join and put you car or parts up forsale straight away that's not really how it should work my opinion only of coarse


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## JorgeTTCQ

Hello,
Option 1 for me. Thanks for asking.

Regards,


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## Tuzzy

Vote placed


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## Daryl R

Hi Nick,

I'm happy to remain with the current security (option 1). I consider it is a balance to protect member interests and encourage participation.

Thanks for asking for opinions.


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## higsta

Option 1


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## Gazzer

voted option 5 nick........ as in my view it should be open to all, buyer beware and be happy.


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## TT02OOT

Have voted for option 1.


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## markrtw

Voted 1


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## kmpowell

I would normally go with Option 5, but given the lefty 'blame' culture in today's society, I fully understand why the forum want to protect themselves. For that reason I voted option 1.



Daryl R said:


> I'm happy to remain with the current security (option 1). I consider it is a balance to protect member interests and encourage participation.


Exactly the reason, and way, I voted. If you don't participate then you shouldn't you have access to the marketplace.

For the argument that says the cars section should be open for everybody, well, if you're serious about buying a TT then you'll have questions and participate in the community.

For the argument about ads must having a picture, phone number etc etc. It's impossible to enforce/manage as people ignore the rules, then the mods spend all their time justifying themselves via Pm to idiots who don't follow the rules.

eBay isn't free, so why should this place be. It's really obvious that the post count to get past the threshold is nominal, so a few days contributing and joining in the community will see you past it in no time.


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## OMLC

I'm a new user and haven't posted before. But as someone looking for a good used Mk 2 TT, being denied access to the cars for sale and market place is really frustrating! I really don't understand the security concerns around this...


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## The Blue Bandit

... voted option 1 ...
... while I'm all for freedom for all to roam and post the forum, and initially found it a little frustrating not being able to send private messages in response to adverts in the 'parts for sale' section- it actually encouraged me to get my post count up by getting more involved in group discussions and posting more frequently, which has got to be a good thing for the forum surely?... and if you can't wait you can always join the TTOC.
The way it works seems fine to me- not so long ago I seem to remember a new member getting a good deal on a group buy of Porsche oil and coolant caps and was granted access to the Private messaging service as it was in the interests of the forum members... I think the moderators do a great job of keeping the forum safe, and in my view the restrictions in place are for our own safety from rip-off merchants turning up out of the blue- the way it works encourages some level of commitment, and interaction with other members which is what will keep the forum thriving.


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## Ronsgonebiking

Voted


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## Ljmooore

Voted. All things should be open to all member as newbies need the market place more than the old timers as we need to get our cars up to the higher spec.


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## PeTTe-N

Was torn between 1 & 3 but finally opted for 3, as it gives people selling their car a bigger audience and car sales will be done face to face with more checks carried out, rather than the paypal/send it through the post scenario which is more often the case on the 'Parts For Sale' and 'Wanted' areas.


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## WozzaTT

Voted - option 1.


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## jamman

Voted :-*


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## davek9

Voted Option 3 as i think it gives prospective owners the oppourtunity to buy a pre-loved :roll: car from the site. As some posters have said it will involve a face to face and sellers can judge for themselves the buyer as with Pistonheads, Autotrader, local newspaper etc etc. As i read the option only established members would be able to sell to eliminate a free selling medium.


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## imranbashir_uk

I haven't voted but my preference would be as follows:

Existing known members with the required post count and TTOC members have full access.
New members are able to view the marketplace but not sell on the marketplace.
PM should be opened, sellers have the option of choosing to proceed with the sale or not.
All sellers should have to leave feedback in the original sale thread as to how the sale went.
The buyer should also be allowed to leave.feedback in the original sale thread as to how the sale went. i.e. was the item as described, or the delivery quick, etc.
Once a buyer has completed a successful transaction with positive feedback they should be allowed to apply to the Mods for full access as someone on the site will have their address.


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## corsa2

Voted righteous :mrgreen:


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## simon3868

Voted 5

All members should be able to view, PM and buy-however only established members should be able to post an advert.

There still needs to be some incentive for membership!


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## S2_Quattro

Option 5 - Remove restrictions.

Buyer beware.

I appreciate the problem however i feel there is no sense in spoiling the experience for the new user. Spammers exist everywhere, it's a fact of life nowadays but it's not a reason to have a 'closed shop'

I'm sure there is a way to resolve this issue without being banned for effectively being new to the forum. I get a lot of useful information from the site but i don't necessarily feel the need to make comments all over the place just to get my post count increased.


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## Charlie

I voted three as it makes more sense to have people potentially looking to buy a TT see TT's available from forum enthusiasts.

Also the restrictions to the forum marketplace effectively wiped about 50% of my business :-(

Charlie


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## cb1100r

Just take the restrictions off - spammers can get in anywhere now. Just make your minds up if you want this to be a closed shop - make a decision - close it - and stop dithering.

I rarely post/visit here and so when I do I'm locked out of generally anything useful - consequence - I don't visit often unless I need to know something. OK so maybe that's not considered a great loss - I've owned a TT for over 8 years - but I come to seek knowledge.

Just get a grip guy's and get off the fence.. Glenn


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## 3.2TTC

Voted ...ta 8)


----------



## BigRedandRiding

Voted.
... But only posted a reply that I voted in order to get my post count up - which seems sort of a bogus thing to do. So, guess which way I voted.


----------



## lakin

Voted for option 1


----------



## rallycross

voted 5.

which really should say - Put it back to how it was before (rather than say "remove all security" as if somehow we are all in imminent danger).

I've been using the forum on and off for a few years, gather info and tips or to sort problems, usually will take a look at cars and parts for sale, just browsing - this should be open to all IMHO.

Scammers are everywhere on the web but tend to be few and far between, the TTForum should not close of a busy section just because there are scammers out there - use some common sense and you wont get scammed (unless you are a gullable fool in which case you will end up getting scammed anyway !).


----------



## BigRedandRiding

P.S. It's now almost a year after purchasing my TT, there's a reason my post count is so low (ooh, this makes Post #2 for me - getting closer to "cool club" status). When I was a new owner, wanted information and was truly enthusiastic about the car & the brand, there were too many restrictions on the site based on my "newbie" status. And that simply meant I went elsewhere to get the information I wanted or needed. And so I simply "tuned" out of this forum.

Let's face it, as a member of other forums dedicated to things I'm involved in (certain motorcycle brands, sports, etc.), it's my experience that there's usually an initial excitement and activity level for a "newbie" on a forum that tapers off for an old timer once all the same posts have been read or specific questions have been answered. You only get a small window to engage your audience and if you set-up artificial walls to exclude them, then you missed your chance to add a new member to your community.

A "community" is a fluid thing where people move in and move out. It's a false choice to assume someone who hasn't been around long enough (or had enough posts) is any less a member based on the time they live there. Sure it's great to have a few guys that have lived on the block their whole lives, but that's not the reality for most communities (or forums).


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## tonicww

I'm still a newbie here, but voted for option 1.

I'm not a great believer in 'everything for nothing' and I don't think a few posts on a forum (that, let's be honest, if of genuine interest to members) should be a great problem to access a few extra features.


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## IWEM

Option 5 with a disclaimer that it is the buyer's / sellers responsbility and no loability extends to the TTOC

Regards
Ian


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## madmark

Option 1 for me!


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## Dingabell

Voted option 1


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## thechillhacker

As much as I love the theory of opening everything up, forum admin experience in the past tells me that opening up like that is just a good way to have this site flooded with hundreds (daily) of (mostly russian) spammers posting about "v14gr a ", etc.

No thanks.

I say, trust the trusted community


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## Mark Davies

Just reading through the responses there's a lot of reference to 'spammers'. I think people need to understand the restrictions have nothing to do with preventing internet spam - it's about trying to prevent professional crooks coming onto the sight to steal from the membership.

The best example suffered here was one guy whom we later found just tours around motoring forums looking for people posting wanted adds in the marketplace and then getting in touch and saying he has the part they want, taking their money and then not delivering the goods. He hit a number of members here and many, many more on forums all over the country. He did people for thousands of pounds in all and as far as we can gather, despite various police investigations, is still at it.

That is what this is about - not just trying to stop people putting unsolicited adverts on the site. It's more serious than that.


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## ScoobyTT

Voted.


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## RideGoofy

Voted. Seeing new cars only seems a reasonable compromise.


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## olds_cool

I voted for 3, it is unlikely to be scammed when buying a car as you would expect the buyer to view first.


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## chuz

Hi, I am a low post member - I voted for 5. Saw something for sale once but couldnt contact to try to purchase. I dont see the risk, if your selling something get cash/confirmed payment first and then release item. Its the buyer taking the risk.

cheers


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## andy68

Voted option 3, opening up cars for sale, must surely make it easier for a seller to find a buyer, and have a sensible level post count, or membership for parts for sale. I have a low post count as i tend to just browse the MK1 forum, as i have an Octavia VRS which is based on the same platform, so if i'm after a particular part to carry on the mods i've done i can see what other members reviews and opinions are, i do the same on SCN, UKMIV's etc.


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## John-H

chuz said:


> Hi, I am a low post member - I voted for 5. Saw something for sale once but couldnt contact to try to purchase. I dont see the risk, if your selling something get cash/confirmed payment first and then release item. Its the buyer taking the risk.
> 
> cheers


That's precisely how people got scammed :!:


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## bugwhizz

Option 3 for me.

It will give the sellers more of a chance of a sale to an infrequent or new user just looking for a TT.

as far as i am aware it can only benefit the users of the site


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## salTTy

have voted


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## audimad

I voted for 5 as this website is NOT the TT owners clubs website and as wallsendmag has already said and i quote,

"The forum is nothing to do with the club and we should leave the running of it to the corporate owners".


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## Mafz

Voted.

Opening it up to all can be a good thing as sellers have a better chance of a sale due to having a wider audience.

On the other hand it can also attracted a lot of time wasters and scammers, so keeping it closed will limit this and attract fewer but potentially better buyers.

If someone wants to sell anything elsewhere to open it up to more buyers, they could do so and just share the link to that advert.

Either way i don't think it matters whether you change it or keep it the same there is always a way around it be you a buyer or seller.


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## Mondo

Not read the 11 pages of replies yet (in a day and a half; fook me!) but I will. I voted to keep it as it is. I guess the idea is for people to establish some sort of Forum history before we have some idea whether or not they're to be trusted to sell stuff. If they join the TTOC I guess there's additional leverage that could be applied should things go wrong, plus it's an incentive to join the TTOC. Fair enough.

Other than naming and shaming I guess there's not much the TTF can do if someone doesn't 'play nice' as it were. But I kinda like the idea of having some 'skin in the game' and restricting PMs/the For Sale section to semi-established members. Not failsafe but better than nowt.

Mind you, you could argue I'd say that as I've done my apprenticeship, so to speak. Be that as it may, I voted for option 1.


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## Stats

Voted


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## DanEE

Option 1 for me


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## Saffy

Ditto option 1 too


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## phope

Option 3 for me


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## bodyart

I voted for option 5.

There was a large debate when these restrictions were first introduced and i see things havent settled down any since then. You are never going to please everyone but i honestly dont see why the TT Forum should be getting involved.

The nonesense that you couldnt access the for sales until you had posted x number of posts just did exactly what i suggested it might, lots of nonsense replys just to get the scores up so it was quickly circumvented.

We are all Big boys and girls and if something seems to good to be true it invariably is. We should be able to make our own judgements. Personally i am not interested in whether someone has paid money to be a TTOC memebr, i still wont automatically trust them, in my experience scammers are happy to spend £20 to make a £5K + sale or whatever, i go for who they are, do my own research and take it from there

I'll respect whatever is decided (even if its wrong haha) - That was a JOKE so no flaming please! but it seems the current system isnt working

Best

Stewart


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## micky b

3 for me


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## goneawol

Option 1.


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## John-H

Having dealt with the aftermath of scams, frauds and people being ripped off on this forum, what I would say is that there was nothing much I could do about the opportunist scammer who had joined and been able to commit fraud straight away when there was no restriction. All we could do was pass on details to the authorities. There was no point in trying to reason with the scammer. We could ban them but they immediately re-joined under a new user name and carried on with their confidence tricks by PM.

This is a point which I think has been missed by some - a delay in the system which prevents them starting up immediately, again and again, with full access, stops them dead in their tracks - SO IT IS WORKING!

For the odd dispute that occurs between established members it's far easier to reason and resolve a dispute - reputation is something they want to keep, so reason trends to prevail.


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## parallax_ca

option 3
i believe that new people on the forum may be looking for their 1st TT (ie me!!) so would be nice to see what is out there!


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## guzzi

voted.


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## CastorAcer

Every option has it's negatives but I don't see the option that would make most sense to me which is restrict posting of cars for sale to members, allow non-members to view cars for sale and possibly have a separate mechanism from the normal PM to allow non-members to engage the members selling their cars.

The main point of the cars for sale is to allow members and non-members to by a TT from a fellow enthusiast, by restricting the posting to members some basic confidence in the identity of the seller can be established and the seller can choose not to sell to non-members if they want.


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## stevebeechTA

Opt 1 for me.
If someone is that serious about buying a car then surly they would join the TTOC to have full access and look. its not alot of money to join. when thinking of buying other cars I have thought about doing this, it would also stop potential tier kickers and the like.


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## markypoo

Cars for sale should be opened up to everyone with only established members able to sell, hardly any other sites charge just to browse and browsing is part of the buying process, a person could have a few cars in mind and I don't think they will join a members club just to look. The parts section could stay as is, if any one wants parts they most probably have a TT and therefore can join in with the forum for a higher post count. The voting is spread over to many categories so option 1 is bound to get the most votes :roll:


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## j8keith

Voted


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## TT_RS

Voted


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## Rosso TT

Voted.


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## Phil_RS

bodyart said:


> Personally i am not interested in whether someone has paid money to be a TTOC memebr, i still wont automatically trust them, in my experience scammers are happy to spend £20 to make a £5K + sale or whatever, i go for who they are, do my own research and take it from there
> 
> Best
> 
> Stewart


I think you are missing the point on the TTOC member being given the access sooner. In order to sign up as a TTOC member you have to give over details which in the event of a scam would make it easier to track down the individual, involve the polce etc.

So whilst yes, you still need to decide if you are happy to transact with the indiviudal, the ability to deal with any problems afterwards are significantly improved compared to a forum which only requires an email address to sign up to.

It has also been mentioned that this wont stop the most serious scammers (who are certainly in a minority) but it will help to deter most


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## jgp-tt

Voted.


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## fozzie34

Voted


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## matt2012

Voted,

Option 1, as it's good to have a bit of security. 
I like how you feel you're getting something from a person who actually know what they are talking about and not just selling a dud.

Matt


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## OO__OO

Voted No.5

Though I think restrictions (100 posts) should still be in force for selling cars or parts.

PMs allowed after 50 posts?


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## Redtoy

Voted


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## motorbikemania

Thanks for offering me the opportunity to express an opinion. I have cast my vote!!


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## alamo

Voted - thanks


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## gwilson30019

Voted


----------



## stu_tt

voted


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## scottleonard101

Voted


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## rmwd

Option 1


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## Gav_TT225

i went for option 3. currently searching for a MK2 2.0T and have been searching ebay, autotrader and this site for a well looked after one for months now. unfortunately i've lost that option as i've never posted and just enjoyed sitting in the background enjoying everyone's posts and knowledge. This is now my first post of many as i'm willing to get my post counter up to required amount to open up acceess to the sales section again. Dont see the point poaying the £15 TTOC until i actually own the car.

Absolutely love the Forum too guys and gals


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## Gone

Voted.


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## ttpos

Hi Guys, sorry but I am a newby, What as gone wrong with the Market place , if a member wants to buy or sell items, and if there is a problem , Then the Addmin staff must have all the members Details on record , and report who ever to the right people, or am I missing something [smiley=book2.gif]


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## John-H

We only have a forum member's email address, unless they are a TTOC member in which case we have in addition, their verified address and bank details etc.


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## ttpos

Hi John, ok many thanks,Then you do have a problem ,


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## SonyVaio

I have just signed up to TTOC and have no knowlege of any problems that have gone on in the past but surely an element of common sense can be applied?? The for sale section seems to be rather too locked down at the moment - which may or may not be justified?

I am a member of other car forums and there is nowhere near the level of lockdown in place that there is here on the TTOC. Surely you want all for sale items to be seen by ALL? Then if required just have the for sale section locked down to people with less than XXX posts or a full paid member to have the privilege to post items for sale? Surely this would suit all parties?

Just my opinion of course.

My circumstances are my other half wishes to purchase a TT - has her heart set on one. The first place I thought of looking was a TT Forum for sale section - but alas NO! Access Denied!!

I really think this section should be relaxed an open for all to see but perhaps restricted for those who wish to sell.


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## John-H

The trouble is to say you are interested in a car you need PM access to contact the seller. If you have PM access you can use it anywhere on the forum. So a scammer has free reign to play confidence tricks on anyone with a need - e.g. someone asking where the cheapest part can be bought from on one of the main forums. Do you follow?


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## SonyVaio

John-H said:


> The trouble is to say you are interested in a car you need PM access to contact the seller. If you have PM access you can use it anywhere on the forum. So a scammer has free reign to play confidence tricks on anyone with a need - e.g. someone asking where the cheapest part can be bought from on one of the main forums. Do you follow?


Hi John,

I do follow but being a member of other sites, they at least have systems in place for genuine people to gain access if required. One site doesn't allow PM's with less than 30 posts but by contacting an admin using a dedicated request thread you can ask for your post count to be bumped up to allow PM.

To just exclude new members and possible genuine buyers is not IMO the best way of dealing with any PM/scammer problem?


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## burns

Voted.


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## audimad

John-H said:


> The trouble is to say you are interested in a car you need PM access to contact the seller. If you have PM access you can use it anywhere on the forum. So a scammer has free reign to play confidence tricks on anyone with a need - e.g. someone asking where the cheapest part can be bought from on one of the main forums. Do you follow?


Scammers are a pain i agree but what has the committee got to do with this site, the TTOC has its OWN website, why not leave it to the corporate owners to sort out and then you can concentrate on the TTOC's own site? :?


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## A3DFU

audimad said:


> what has the committee got to do with this site


I you check who the moderators on, this, TTF site are then you'll find that most of them are TTOC committee members. This is where the connection is!


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## paul4281

Voted

I think parts & cars for sale should be open, & PM's for new members with full access once a predetermined post count has been passed. Don't see why TTOC membership should give access to the TTF. [smiley=argue.gif]


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## A3DFU

paul4281 said:


> Don't see why TTOC membership should give access to the TTF. [smiley=argue.gif]


It is not the TTOC membership that is the important factor here but the fact that when someone becomes a TTOC member they have to submit certain verifiable personal data which makes it easier to trace them if there should be a problem or put in a different way: it is unlikely that someone going the extra mile becoming a TTOC member will then scam others.


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## John-H

There are a number of club/committed members who volunteer to help moderate and run this forum and have done so for many years along with the forum's own admin. This is for the benefit of all concerned.

It was Jason Taylor, the creator of this forum who decided to relax the minimum requirement for PM access for TTOC members precisely because, with their extra details on record, they posed less of a risk to the forum community. If there was a problem they could be traced - unlike if an email assess was the only record.

We are considering other ideas in this debate, for example whereby a car buyer can contact a seller without having to enable PM access perhaps, which is the main fraud avenue. Involving a moderator for each transaction may be possible but may involve too much workload. There are other possible ways.

Whatever is decided will be with the sanction of this community, with our help and the authority of the administration of this forum.


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## Phil_RS

John-H said:


> There are a number of club/committed members who volunteer to help moderate and run this forum and have done so for many years along with the forum's own admin. This is for the benefit of all concerned.
> 
> It was Jason Taylor, the creator of this forum who decided to relax the minimum requirement for PM access for TTOC members precisely because, with their extra details on record, they posed less of a risk to the forum community. If there was a problem they could be traced - unlike if an email assess was the only record.
> 
> We are considering other ideas in this debate, for example whereby a car buyer can contact a seller without having to enable PM access perhaps, which is the main fraud avenue. Involving a moderator for each transaction may be possible but may involve too much workload. There are other possible ways.
> 
> Whatever is decided will be with the sanction of this community, with our help and the authority of the administration of this forum.


Would one option be to open car for sale topics to posts/replies? Have strict rules on who can reply but surely this would likely be less work for moderators than having to be involved in each sale?


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## Gizmo68

Phil_RS said:


> Would one option be to open car for sale topics to posts/replies? Have strict rules on who can reply but surely this would likely be less work for moderators than having to be involved in each sale?


Yes and it would probably save loads of duplicated PM's asking the same questions.

DW (for example) state "All dealings are to be done on the thread and not via private messages. Each offer is then visible, thus removing the potential of anything 'underhand' going on."

You only then need to go to PM for personal details such as payment and contact information.


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## Gizmo68

A3DFU said:


> audimad said:
> 
> 
> 
> what has the committee got to do with this site
> 
> 
> 
> I you check who the moderators on, this, TTF site are then you'll find that most of them are TTOC committee members. This is where the connection is!
Click to expand...

From what I can see, the TTOC committee members who are also moderators are certainly not the majority, yet they seem to be the ones making the rules. :?


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## John-H

Gizmo68 said:


> Phil_RS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Would one option be to open car for sale topics to posts/replies? Have strict rules on who can reply but surely this would likely be less work for moderators than having to be involved in each sale?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes and it would probably save loads of duplicated PM's asking the same questions.
> 
> DW (for example) state "All dealings are to be done on the thread and not via private messages. Each offer is then visible, thus removing the potential of anything 'underhand' going on."
> 
> You only then need to go to PM for personal details such as payment and contact information.
Click to expand...

You were not around at the time but it used to be the case that the for sale adverts could be replied to. What happened though was they turned into auctions with people making tactical offers and often negative comments about someone's car. There would be complaints and it took a lot of moderation time to police - so much so that it was decided to remove the ability to reply. We also insisted an advert had a price.


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## audimad

Gizmo68 said:


> A3DFU said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> audimad said:
> 
> 
> 
> what has the committee got to do with this site
> 
> 
> 
> I you check who the moderators on, this, TTF site are then you'll find that most of them are TTOC committee members. This is where the connection is!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> From what I can see, the TTOC committee members who are also moderators are certainly not the majority, yet they seem to be the ones making the rules. :?
Click to expand...

They seem to have hi-jacked this forum and made it their own, do they apply the same rules to their own forum i wonder?


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## A3DFU

Gizmo68 said:


> A3DFU said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> audimad said:
> 
> 
> 
> what has the committee got to do with this site
> 
> 
> 
> I you check who the moderators on, this, TTF site are then you'll find that most of them are TTOC committee members. This is where the connection is!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> From what I can see, the TTOC committee members who are also moderators are certainly not the majority, yet they seem to be the ones making the rules. :?
Click to expand...

Moderators are: TT Law, John-H, DXN, Ikon66, T3RBO, Hoggy, Wallsendmag and Nem 
with those in dark orange being TTOC committee members. You will find that that *IS* the majority!


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## A3DFU

Gizmo68 said:


> A3DFU said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> audimad said:
> 
> 
> 
> what has the committee got to do with this site
> 
> 
> 
> I you check who the moderators on, this, TTF site are then you'll find that most of them are TTOC committee members. This is where the connection is!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> From what I can see, the TTOC committee members who are also moderators are certainly not the majority, yet they seem to be the ones making the rules. :?
Click to expand...

Moderators are: TT Law, John-H, DXN, Ikon66, T3RBO, Hoggy, Wallsendmag and Nem 
with those in dark orange being TTOC committee members. You will find that that *IS* the majority!


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## RKJA

Voted.


----------



## Gizmo68

A3DFU said:


> Moderators are: TT Law, John-H, DXN, Ikon66, T3RBO, Hoggy, Wallsendmag and Nem
> with those in dark orange being TTOC committee members. You will find that that *IS* the majority!





Gizmo68 said:


> From what I can see


So we both appear to be correct. :?

May I suggest you update the list in the link I posted then, as that one is different.


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## John-H

audimad said:


> They seem to have hi-jacked this forum and made it their own, do they apply the same rules to their own forum i wonder?


It's everyone's enthusiasm for the Audi TT that brings us all together Jeff. If we can help to maintain, develop and improve what's available to members then that's a good thing isn't it?

Although the TTOC and TTF started as separate organisations their common interest naturally brought them together. This relationship developed and as I'm sure you remember Jeff, the running of the two organisations merged to a greater extent in 2008:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=128410&p=1333946&hilit=Ttoc+as+one+announce#p1333946

There is strength in being together and it's more attractive for members when to a large extent things are integrated and readily available - where there is a spirit of cooperation to the benefit of members and all concerned.

Having said that, the ultimate authority for the running of this forum lies with the owners of this forum. Everything that happens here is done with their approval and authority.

Outside of this forum the TTOC has it's own website with a private committee forum for club officials to organise running of the club and a private member's area, where club members can discuss and raise issues with the club and gain secure access to the on line version of our award winning magazine and newsletter:

http://www.ttoc.co.uk/members/a25e_index.php

We don't have a market place on the TT Owners club website or member's area, as being a member, I'm sure you know Jeff


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## Wallsendmag

Dani I'm not a Moderator here although I am in our forum. Also I think merged is far too strong a word for this instance .


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## A3DFU

Wallsendmag said:


> Dani I'm not a Moderator here


Sorry if I got this wrong Andrew? I believe that if not now you used to moderate the "new members" within the TTOC board or am I wrong?
Apologies if I posted incorrect info


----------



## Wallsendmag

A3DFU said:


> Wallsendmag said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dani I'm not a Moderator here
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry if I got this wrong Andrew? I believe that if not now you used to moderate the "new members" within the TTOC board or am I wrong?
> Apologies if I posted incorrect info
Click to expand...

There is a place for these discussions and its not here .As I was told last week .


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## chrissy1502002

Im a relatively new member however I voted for option 1 as it makes sense and you want to protect us genuine members! I would like to know how many posts i have made and perhaps how many more i need to make to unlock this area


----------



## ColinH

Voted.


----------



## thespider

voted.


----------



## moro anis

Pesrsonally I'd leave as is, option 1. 
I don't think it's unreasonable except for PMs to new members is a bit of a pain sometimes.


----------



## DDcrash

Voted for No 1


----------



## SonyVaio

chrissy1502002 said:


> Im a relatively new member however I voted for option 1 as it makes sense and you want to protect us genuine members! I would like to know how many posts i have made and perhaps how many more i need to make to unlock this area


Seriously chrissy??

You've got a post count of '20', you've been a member since December 2011, so it is now been over 7 months since you joined and STILL you don't have access to the sales section??? YET! you still voted option 1?

I take it your not a member of any other forums? A sales section works very well in many many other forums without the need for the restrictions that are in place here. You yourself are victim of said restrictions of which you vote FOR, yet you post wishing to know how many more posts you need to gain access?

Bonkers!


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## Sl03 joe

I was wondering why I couldn't see them haha


----------



## ohjohn

Voted. I have always had trouble trying to access the site ! Failed so many times, I had to give up. Most annoying.


----------



## Kell

Voted.


----------



## goodmunky

Voted 5.

IMO it's a bad idea restricting the viewing of ads. I've just popped over from an S3 forum looking to buy and swap some parts as a great deal are shared between the two cars. Turns out I can't, without spending weeks / months building up my post count.

I've always seen Classifieds / Sales & Wanted as great ways into forums. I guess the mods here think differently! :?


----------

