# Diesel and electric cars banned by 2040!



## SPECSMAN (Oct 11, 2016)

Heard on radio two this morning..........

It will be illegal to sell new petrol or diesel cars after 2040.

BRING IT ON!

Doesn't matter to me; my driving days will be numbered by then, and I don't buy new cars.

Battery driven electric cars just increase the use of fossil fuel power stations, also the recharging times are laughable.

Hydrogen fuel cells are the best bet so far; I firmly believe that car manufacturers have the technology in place but they (and the oil companies) wouldn't like the cost of change.

Hydrogen production stores energy more efficiently than any battery. The electricity required could be from any green source; even all those bloody windmills would be useful!

Got some land? get solar panel/windmills and an hydrogen production unit.

Hydro electricity and tidal power would finally have the ideal way to store that energy.

Sell it to the motorist; water and oxygen out the tail pipe! win/win.

Sorry I wont be around to see it.

Specsman 8)


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## barry_m2 (Jun 29, 2015)

Hydrogen would be the best option, but electric will happen eventually (not sure 20 years is realistic) so the government can still tax you on it. Just think how many millions they will lose in tax on fuel if all the petrol stations closed!


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## Shug750S (Feb 6, 2012)

I'll be close on 80 by then, so will be relying on my bus pass or an old Nissan Micra or Honda Jazz, with everyone swerving to avoid me. :lol:


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## ZephyR2 (Feb 20, 2013)

As was mentioned when France declared a similar ban a little while ago - with the rate of change and progress electric cars will very likely be the only cars that manufacturers are making anyway so the ban is nothing more than a somewhat self-righteous gesture.
But as I was reading today if the time arrives when we are all driving electric cars the electric wiring in most houses will have to changed to cope with the high currents required for fast charging of multiple cars down the drive.
Furthermore the whole grid system would have to be upgraded to be able to provide for the increased demand.
And this still doesn't get round the problem affecting the majority who live in flats or terraced housing who wouldn't have access to their own charging points.
I agree that hydrogen fuel cells is the way to go and fortunately the Japs are still working on it.


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## SamDorey (Dec 31, 2016)

And how are they producing the electric to power the cars [smiley=book2.gif] how're they going to fix pot holes and do road works. Would be funny to see police chases. No longer high speed chases as they need to save the batteries :lol:


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## SPECSMAN (Oct 11, 2016)

barry_m2 said:


> Hydrogen would be the best option, but electric will happen eventually (not sure 20 years is realistic) so the government can still tax you on it. Just think how many millions they will lose in tax on fuel if all the petrol stations closed!


Indeed.

But they like to shoot themselves in the foot! For instance; massive government campaigns to improve your health, (stop smoking; drinking; drugs; fat; sugar etc.) then they loose all the tax revenue and everyone lives longer to bleed the pension pot.

Couldn't run a whelk stall!

8)


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## SPECSMAN (Oct 11, 2016)

ZephyR2 said:


> As was mentioned when France declared a similar ban a little while ago - with the rate of change and progress electric cars will very likely be the only cars that manufacturers are making anyway so the ban is nothing more than a somewhat self-righteous gesture.
> But as I was reading today if the time arrives when we are all driving electric cars the electric wiring in most houses will have to changed to cope with the high currents required for fast charging of multiple cars down the drive.
> Furthermore the whole grid system would have to be upgraded to be able to provide for the increased demand.
> And this still doesn't get round the problem affecting the majority who live in flats or terraced housing who wouldn't have access to their own charging points.
> I agree that hydrogen fuel cells is the way to go and fortunately the Japs are still working on it.


I think the majority would charge at night; especially if there was an off-peak incentive. Power stations only "tick -over" at night; so there may be increased efficiency.

But the losses that would be incurred, using todays battery technology, couldn't be scaled up to mass market proportions.

And of course, the restrictions you mention for people without access to private charging facilities, is a relevant point.

I can picture the hard shoulder, full of broken down cars with depleted cells!

If you have only 20 years; someone needs to get working on the solution!

8)


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## ashfinlayson (Oct 26, 2013)

There are a couple of Tesla's and some i3's in my office car park, everyone plugs in at work (tight arses). We're just a few little old converted barns so no fancy high capacity stuff going on here but no issues with our supply.

I imagine we'll see a massive influx of solar power of the next decade, Tesla are already developing self-charging and their new solar roof slates look awesome. Now that we have the tech I find it hard to understand why all new build properties, residential or commercial, aren't built with solar panels.


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## SPECSMAN (Oct 11, 2016)

ashfinlayson said:


> There are a couple of Tesla's and some i3's in my office car park, everyone plugs in at work (tight arses). We're just a few little old converted barns so no fancy high capacity stuff going on here but no issues with our supply.
> 
> I imagine we'll see a massive influx of solar power of the next decade, Tesla are already developing self-charging and their new solar roof slates look awesome. Now that we have the tech I find it hard to understand why all new build properties, residential or commercial, aren't built with solar panels.


Yes; but pump it back into the grid and make hydrogen out of it!

My understanding of the tiny solar panels on electric cars, is that they assist with auxillary items like radios etc. not any serious attempt to power the drive motors.

I thought if I had a battery/electric, I would install a DIY style windmill; but it's like filling a bath with a teaspoon.

We need the convenience we enjoy now; drive; refuel; drive; refuel - instantly. ie Hydrogen fuel cells.

8)


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## barry_m2 (Jun 29, 2015)

Do these electric cars (Tesla for example) reclaim power from the heat produced from braking? or maybe have some kind of alternator connected to the wheels to recharge as you move, or power aux items at least?


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## ashfinlayson (Oct 26, 2013)

SPECSMAN said:


> ashfinlayson said:
> 
> 
> > There are a couple of Tesla's and some i3's in my office car park, everyone plugs in at work (tight arses). We're just a few little old converted barns so no fancy high capacity stuff going on here but no issues with our supply.
> ...


But would you be seen dead driving around in a Nissan _Nuke_ :lol:


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## SPECSMAN (Oct 11, 2016)

barry_m2 said:


> Do these electric cars (Tesla for example) reclaim power from the heat produced from braking? or maybe have some kind of alternator connected to the wheels to recharge as you move, or power aux items at least?


I believe that even the Nissan Leaf does this.

8)


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## SPECSMAN (Oct 11, 2016)

[/quote]But would you be seen dead driving around in a Nissan _Nuke_ :lol:[/quote]

There is no reason why an electric/hydrogen car should be boring; with no batteries to lug around.

Could even have a TT electric! Think, that Audi in the i-Robot film!; I know it was only a mock up; but I bet it wasn't a TDI :lol:

8)


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## Stiff (Jun 15, 2015)

SPECSMAN said:


> Could even have a TT electric! Think, that Audi in the i-Robot film!; I know it was only a mock up; but I bet it wasn't a TDI :lol:
> 
> 8)


No, it was a 5.4 litre V10 :lol:


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## SPECSMAN (Oct 11, 2016)

Stiff said:


> SPECSMAN said:
> 
> 
> > Could even have a TT electric! Think, that Audi in the i-Robot film!; I know it was only a mock up; but I bet it wasn't a TDI :lol:
> ...


I know it's running before we can walk...but...... There is no reason why the performance couldn't match even a 5.4 V10.

An electric motor gives maximum torque as soon as it starts to rotate. No clutch, no gears. Powered by a limitless supply of electricity. It is the future, being held back by large-scale business interests.

And that's coming from Specsman, the capitalist!

Bring it on!!!!!

8)


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## Roller Skate (May 18, 2015)

SPECSMAN said:


> Stiff said:
> 
> 
> > SPECSMAN said:
> ...


Already there. Tesla "Insane Mode".






And there's companies out there already doing "remaps" for electric cars.


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## Stiff (Jun 15, 2015)

SPECSMAN said:


> An electric motor gives maximum torque as soon as it starts to rotate. No clutch, no gears. Powered by a limitless supply of electricity. It is the future, being held back by large-scale business interests.


 I used to work in the forklift industry in the early 90's through to mid 00's refurbing many an electric truck. The power is instant and at times could be quite vicious and I often pondered on an electric car.
Back then though, batteries were huge (a benefit to fork trucks as the counterweights could be smaller), expensive and electric didn't have quite the same appeal as it does now with the tech involved and the advances made.


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## SPECSMAN (Oct 11, 2016)

Already there. Tesla "Insane Mode".






And there's companies out there already doing "remaps" for electric cars.[/quote]

I confess that I don't know, (yet); but I bet this car is battery driven or petrol/electric......

Now imagine that car, but with an hydrogen fuel cell; without the battery weight, and you can see my reasoning.

Stuff, internal combustion!
8)


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## Roller Skate (May 18, 2015)

Stiff said:


> SPECSMAN said:
> 
> 
> > An electric motor gives maximum torque as soon as it starts to rotate. No clutch, no gears. Powered by a limitless supply of electricity. It is the future, being held back by large-scale business interests.
> ...


That's where the next big science breakthrough needs to come from ... battery tech.


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## Roller Skate (May 18, 2015)

SPECSMAN said:


> Already there. Tesla "Insane Mode".
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I confess that I don't know, (yet); but I bet this car is battery driven or petrol/electric......

Now imagine that, hydrogen fuel cell; without the battery weight, and you can see my reasoning.

Stuff, internal combustion!
8)[/quote]

It's a Tesla. Batteries Included. No fossil fuels, no hydrogen, no problem.


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## SPECSMAN (Oct 11, 2016)

Roller Skate said:


> Stiff said:
> 
> 
> > SPECSMAN said:
> ...


I don't agree, see above!

8)


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## SPECSMAN (Oct 11, 2016)

Roller Skate said:


> SPECSMAN said:
> 
> 
> > Already there. Tesla "Insane Mode".
> ...


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## SPECSMAN (Oct 11, 2016)

Batteries will all have lifespan problems; recharging is defo a problem! 
Fancy a trip to the seaside!

8)


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## Roller Skate (May 18, 2015)

SPECSMAN said:


> Roller Skate said:
> 
> 
> > SPECSMAN said:
> ...


Batteries will all have lifespan problems; recharging is defo a problem!, fancy a trip to the seaside!

8)[/quote]

Why do you think that the big brains and big money are going down the electric fuel cell route and not the hydrogen fuel cell route?

Read this and you'll understand why.

http://www.carbuyer.co.uk/tips-and-advi ... -cell-cars


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## ZephyR2 (Feb 20, 2013)

TBH at my age I was already planning on having an electric vehicle by 2040 .....








Sepang blue with Audi 17" Trapeze alloys LOL

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Roller Skate (May 18, 2015)

ZephyR2 said:


> TBH at my age I was already planning on having an electric vehicle by 2040 .....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ordered.


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## Stiff (Jun 15, 2015)

SPECSMAN said:


> Batteries will all have lifespan problems; recharging is defo a problem!
> Fancy a trip to the seaside!
> 
> 8)


Tesla's two current models exceed 250 miles on a single charge (and the 'S' is large luxury barge), and they also have access to the company's nationwide network of "Superchargers" for free and fast charging. 
Some of the cars I've had wouldn't even do that on a full tank :lol: 
So the technology is already there with more and more advances being made all the time.


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## barry_m2 (Jun 29, 2015)

Roller Skate said:


> That's where the next big science breakthrough needs to come from ... battery tech.


I agree.. they have done ok so far, but nowhere near where they need to be. Batteries are slow to charge and have limited range and life span. Current batteries can only be charged a certain number of times and then are no good. The more you charge them reduces their overall capacity.
The current companies selling electric cars will allow you to buy the car and lease the battery, or buy both outright.
The tech just isn't there yet to say you can replace petrol/diesel cars, unless there has been some huge breakthrough that's a big secret! So is 20 years really long enough to develop a battery that is light enough, powerful enough and durable enough to give it a decent range and that you can charge in just a few minutes.


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## Stiff (Jun 15, 2015)

barry_m2 said:


> I agree.. they have done ok so far, but nowhere near where they need to be. Batteries are slow to charge and have limited range and life span. Current batteries can only be charged a certain number of times and then are no good. The more you charge them reduces their overall capacity.
> The current companies selling electric cars will allow you to buy the car and lease the battery, or buy both outright.


And that's the problem at the moment. If bought outright, the batteries will eventually wear out and then the car becomes throw away - the cost of replacing the batteries will be more than the cost of a new car in many, if not most cases.



barry_m2 said:


> The tech just isn't there yet to say you can replace petrol/diesel cars, unless there has been some huge breakthrough that's a big secret! So is 20 years really long enough to develop a battery that is light enough, powerful enough and durable enough to give it a decent range and that you can charge in just a few minutes.


 I reckon so. It's big, big business and there's some serious money to be made in that industry. There's plenty of people on the case so I reckon in 20 years time (much less, even) things will be a whole lot different.
Old news maybe but here's some examples (Graphene car batteries sound interesting and are pretty much ready, as does the Aluminium-air battery)

http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/130380- ... er-the-air


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## SPECSMAN (Oct 11, 2016)

Roller Skate.

The article you directed me to was very interesting. I did not know that the pressure involved was three times that of an oxygen cylinder!
But if the original car builders gave up, because you had to buy petrol from the local chemist; we would still be driving horse and carts.
Perhaps batteries could be developed to give almost infinite recharges, with replenishing taking five minutes. This is what is necessary. Oh, and they would need to weigh the same as polystyrene, with a bulk no larger than a suitcase.

I followed an enormous Tesla home this evening, he was driving like his batteries were flat. :lol:

8)


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## ZephyR2 (Feb 20, 2013)

And how long before you get a "Samsung Special" where the battery bursts into flames under hard acceleration or while charging.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Stiff (Jun 15, 2015)

SPECSMAN said:


> I followed an enormous Tesla home this evening, he was driving like his batteries were flat. :lol:
> 
> 8)


I followed one for a short while last year until we hit a dual carriageway. I mashed the throttle intending to overtake (ok so it's only TDi) but by the time I was even halfway through the rev range of the gear I was in, he was *long* gone in the distance.


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## Roller Skate (May 18, 2015)

ZephyR2 said:


> And how long before you get a "Samsung Special" where the battery bursts into flames under hard acceleration or while charging.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think we're going to see a new wave of battery tech in the next 20 years Zeph. I like Musk's Solar energy farms, his battery tech isn't far off, it's getting there though.

When you can comfortably live off the grid and charge your car all through the sun shining on your roof, that's the ideal. 
Have you seen his solar roof tiles?

https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/solarroof


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## Shug750S (Feb 6, 2012)

Prepare for large increases in tax on electricity.

Government collected £26 billion in fuel duty tax in 2014 according to IFS data.

So that will have to be replaced from somewhere...


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## leopard (May 1, 2015)

Being able to extract power from normal water efficiently would be my ideal,i.e extracting more power out than put in to separate the Hydrogen and Oxygen ions has got to be the Holy Grail me thinks.


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## Roller Skate (May 18, 2015)

Shug750S said:


> Prepare for large increases in tax on electricity.
> 
> Government collected £26 billion in fuel duty tax in 2014 according to IFS data.
> 
> So that will have to be replaced from somewhere...


Let's see 'en get that from my solar panels.


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## bobclive22 (Apr 5, 2010)

There is a slight problem, charging said vehicles, most modern developments do not have enough on site parking per dwelling, I own two 6 year old BTL`s, each house has at least 2 cars, in the evenings and at weekends cars are parked on the pavement both sides of the road, at times owners cannot park outside their own homes. I can`t see how full electric can possibly work.


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## bobclive22 (Apr 5, 2010)

> I think we're going to see a new wave of battery tech in the next 20 years Zeph. I like Musk's Solar energy farms,
> 
> 
> > his battery tech isn't far off
> ...


No it`s not, it`s the same old lithium-ion tech of 1991 with a slight improvement.

*The man who brought us the lithium-ion battery at the age of 57 has an idea for a new one at 92*

The stakes are high, and Goodenough dismisses a lot of the competing approaches he sees-Tesla's Elon Musk, for instance, who he says is content to "sell his cars to rich people in Hollywood" while waiting for scientists to create a battery that will power a middle-class electric car. That is not precisely fair-Musk is obviously selling his $80,000 to $100,000 cars to an elite niche, but by 2018 he vows to have a roughly $35,000 model for a broader slice of the market. He is getting there through agile engineering that has provided incremental improvements to his battery.

But Goodenough is equally dismissive of such tinkering and its measly 7% or 8% a year in added efficiency. "You need something that will give you a little bit of a step," he says, "not an increment."

https://qz.com/338767/the-man-who-broug ... one-at-92/


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## Stiff (Jun 15, 2015)

bobclive22 said:


> https://qz.com/338767/the-man-who-broug ... one-at-92/


That article is two and a half years old. This one is a little more recent (although I'm not sure what's going on with his age though)

http://nationalvanguard.org/2017/07/whi ... portation/


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## Roller Skate (May 18, 2015)

bobclive22 said:


> There is a slight problem, charging said vehicles, most modern developments do not have enough on site parking per dwelling, I own two 6 year old BTL`s, each house has at least 2 cars, in the evenings and at weekends cars are parked on the pavement both sides of the road, at times owners cannot park outside their own homes. I can`t see how full electric can possibly work.


Muderer.


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## Roller Skate (May 18, 2015)

bobclive22 said:


> > I think we're going to see a new wave of battery tech in the next 20 years Zeph. I like Musk's Solar energy farms,
> >
> >
> > > his battery tech isn't far off
> ...


Do you just type a search term into Google and hope for the best? :lol:


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## ZephyR2 (Feb 20, 2013)

Sounds like we're going to need a lot of long extension leads.

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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

SPECSMAN said:


> Hydrogen fuel cells are the best bet so far


Pure electric cars are about three times more efficient than fuel cell once you factor in the processing and transportation of compressed Hydrogen. Not to mention the fact that fuel cell cars still need a battery pack to infill power when you need increased performance (this battery then gets recharged by the fuel cell when you're cruising).

The only real benefit from fuel cell is the refueling time - and don't get me wrong, it's a big benefit - but one that doesn't really justify all the negatives. Especially given that recharge times for batteries is expected to fall as technology advances and as charging infrastructure improves.

Pure electric is the future. Fuel cells might sound like a nice alternative because they're cleaner than fossil fuels, but don't require us drivers to modify our behaviour, but we'd be accepting second best just to save ourselves some trouble in the short term.


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## ZephyR2 (Feb 20, 2013)

According to some reports the UK would need 10 new power stations (or 20 if you believe the Daily Mail :lol to supply the demand for all those electric cars. Building all of them by 2040 would be a tall order.

Mind you this sounds like an interesting electric car ....
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/concept-cars/456bhp-renault-zoe-e-sport-driven-flat-out-track


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

This made me laugh.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

The usual melodramatics... The 2040 date is simply the point where NEW fossil fuel cars will no longer be available for sale. There will still be many many thousands of non-electric cars on the road and that will be the case for many years afterwards. We aren't walking towards a cliff edge - this is a soft roll out where we can monitor the progress and speed up/slow down as much as necessary to match the infrastructure.

And (in the hope that I trigger the BobBot again), if car chargers are managed remotely whenever appropriate, the demand could be spread intelligently so that it just smooths out the current supply without needing multiple new power stations. For example, if my car needs a couple of hours charge per night for the commute, I could hook it up, put the charger into 'intelligent mode' and it will negotiate charging time with the power network during the night. If I need my car charged ASAP, I put the charger into 'instant mode' and it charges straight away.


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## SPECSMAN (Oct 11, 2016)

Spandex said:


> SPECSMAN said:
> 
> 
> > Hydrogen fuel cells are the best bet so far
> ...


Welcome back Spandex; the Forum member for the opposition!

I agree totally with your assessment; I appreciate the problems and dangers with hydrogen, but........

Battery technology is still in the dark ages really; it requires a real incentive to get the right people to develop the product required.

It interests me, that all the wasted green energy could be stored efficiently, as hydrogen and when this power is released, it is clean.

Maybe hydrogen isn't the answer; but the environmental cost of current battery technology, could not be scaled up for everyone.

8)


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

SPECSMAN said:


> Battery technology is still in the dark ages really; it requires a real incentive to get the right people to develop the product required.


Well, 'dark ages' is a bit unfair. Batteries are pretty advanced - they're just not advanced enough to replace fossil fuels without changing our own behaviour. But should that really be an issue? We're used to not thinking about fuel - it's easily available whenever we need it - but should we really be expending a load of effort in replicating that same complacency with whatever we choose to replace fossil fuels? If we're creating a list of requirements for the fuel of the future, we shouldn't just assume that it has to behave exactly the same as the fuel it replaces. It should be a list of what we need, not what we've got.



SPECSMAN said:


> It interests me, that all the wasted green energy could be stored efficiently, as hydrogen and when this power is released, it is clean.


You never know, it might become less of an issue once electric cars become more common. It will be extremely likely that a large portion of car charging will take place during times when typically electricity demand was lower (overnight, middle of the day, etc) and intelligent charging can also take place, as I describe above. This might significantly reduce or remove the problem of wasted green energy.


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## SPECSMAN (Oct 11, 2016)

I think it is important to remember that current (no pun intended) battery manufacture is wasteful on energy to begin with; that's why I say it can't be scaled up for everyone to use, in its present form.

The waste of lugging half a ton of batteries is obviously inefficient as well.

The biggest downfall with batteries, in their present form, still remains the replenishing time. No problem for commuters, but long distance driving would be interesting.

I suppose that there is 23 years to sort it out!

8)


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

True, but as I said, fuel cell cars also need a drive battery in order to help performance. Not anything near as big as what you'd find in a plug-in, but it's still a consideration.

Perhaps the short term (next 40 years or so) solution will be plug-in electric for people with charging capability and no range issues and fuel cell for anyone who requires the flexibility not provided by existing plug-ins (including long-range delivery vehicles) and is willing to pay the extra costs for the less efficient fuel. Then when battery technology improves, everything moves to plug-in.


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## SPECSMAN (Oct 11, 2016)

Spandex said:


> True, but as I said, fuel cell cars also need a drive battery in order to help performance. Not anything near as big as what you'd find in a plug-in, but it's still a consideration.
> 
> Perhaps the short term (next 40 years or so) solution will be plug-in electric for people with charging capability and no range issues and fuel cell for anyone who requires the flexibility not provided by existing plug-ins (including long-range delivery vehicles) and is willing to pay the extra costs for the less efficient fuel. Then when battery technology improves, everything moves to plug-in.


So, we have finally agreed on something?

I think I need a lie down!

8)


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

SPECSMAN said:


> So, we have finally agreed on something?
> 
> I think I need a lie down!
> 
> 8)


Well, I think fuel cells are, at best, an interim solution for a specific group of users. They're certainly not what we should be aiming for long term and even short term most people should move to plug-in electrics. Fuel cells are for edge cases.

If that's what you meant, then yes we finally agree.


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## Nyxx (May 1, 2012)

O boy you are truly back :lol:


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

SPECSMAN said:


> Spandex said:
> 
> 
> > True, but as I said, fuel cell cars also need a drive battery in order to help performance. Not anything near as big as what you'd find in a plug-in, but it's still a consideration.
> ...


You're lucky. I had to resort to talking about pangolins as a diversionary tactic once before the ping pong ball came to rest - mind you, talking about pangolins was great as they are my favorite animal :lol:


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## Roller Skate (May 18, 2015)

I'm going down this route. I saw it in a documentary called "Back to the future".


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

From Tesla information on another website I found someone calculating:



> As for your question, at highway speed, a model S will travel about 295 miles, at 70 deg F, on flat roadways on a full charge. A full charge is about 76 KWH (the other is a buffer to get to 85). So that is 3.88 miles or 6.25 Km per 1 Kwh of electricity.


Which is about 3.9 miles. That's probably very optimistic however as it is at constant speed. I'm also not sure if they are taking into account storage efficiency - usually an efficient switch mode power supply is 80% to 90% efficient and a battery maybe 80% - so I don't know if they account for that. With stop starts and the inefficiencies of even regenerative braking and storage (maybe 0.8 x0.8 = 0.64) and in winter an electric heater of a few hundred watts, and lights which maybe LED but will likely be in 10s of watts at least, ICE etc etc- (too complicated on my phone right now) - but let's say you only get half that. Is that reasonable? So that's about two miles per kWh.

Now, I drive about 40 miles to work and back of mixed driving, so that would need about 20 kWh to recover. That's like leaving two 10kW electric showers running together for an hour - a total of 83 amps.

Most household consumer units are rated at 100 amps so that's pushing the capability of the wiring - imagine you used your shower or oven/grille etc whilst charging your car - the lights would go out - and I'm not even considering "diversity" back to the sub station which presumes such extreme loads don't all happen at once!

Clearly you'd have to extend the charging period. Let's say eight hours during sleep at least (although it could be longer). You could roughly get away with 10 Amps - about 2.5 kW running all night. But everyone else would too.

The cost of electricity is around 15p/kWh so that's about £3.00 which isn't bad. (I've not taken off-peak electricity as I don't think it would be any more if everyone is doing it!)

The day and evening loads are likely to be the same as always (optimistic!), so by suddenly creating a new peak time during the night, yes I think you are going to require an upgrade in capacity. We don't run with 20% peak safety margin any more since the free "market" pushed the margins to maximise profit. Clearly the infrastructure will need to o be upgraded. Not all at once but it will require considerable investment.

Perhaps someone else can throw some numbers in. It's an interesting exercise in perspective. Many people presume plugging in overnight won't amount too much. It will.


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## Roller Skate (May 18, 2015)

John-H said:


> From Tesla information on another website I found someone calculating:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Add this into the equation.

https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/support/supercharging


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

Tesla, on their site, simplify it by talking about 'miles per hour' of charge (for the Model S). With the standard home charger on a single phase supply they reckon about 22 miles per hours charge. Given that the average car commute is about 10 miles each way, I don't think we have to worry about people charging their car all night, every night.

All that being said, I'm sure over time the infrastructure will need to be upgraded, but I'm not sure how much of an issue that really is. uptake of electric cars will be a gradual process, so infrastructure changes can be too.


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

I think they are talking about a fast charge cycle there and if the numbers were broadly in line with what I estimated at two miles per kWh then that would be about 10kW for an hour which would be half your consumer unit capability. I might be out on my efficiency presumption and so might they but either way that's significant load for that length of time.

There's a paper I've just found on this very subject which discusses "diversuty" calculations like I was saying on the sub stations and looks into it a lot more than I'm going to. The main concerns relate to distribution uniformity, phase imbalance including commonised faults with charging equipment risk with power factor and harmonics and of course the timing of charging as a basic issue.

They seem to be saying that the existing infrastructure will probably just about cope up to 10% EV market penetration. Much more uptake than that and you're into upgrading the network distribution capability. This is the current carrying capacity and acceptable voltage drops across the network - not the power generation of course which obviously would have to increase in proportion to increased demand.

It's an interesting read:
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... n_networks


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

John-H said:


> I think they are talking about a fast charge cycle there


That's the standard home 'Tesla Wall' charger at 7.4kW.

https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/support/hom ... stallation

As for that report, it's hard to work out exactly what their conclusion is. The comparison between unscheduled charging and 'smart scheduled charging and phasing' shows that you can squeeze 30% ev penetration into the same capacity as 10% by using intelligent charging. But then the rest of the simulations make no mention of what charging strategy was used, so who knows what the results mean.

Either way though, even 10% isn't too shabby at all, considering we're only at around 1.5% today. If it's more like 20-30% with intelligent charging management then we have a lot of breathing room.


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## SPECSMAN (Oct 11, 2016)

I avoid metaphors and sayings like the plague. :roll: But, thinking outside the box.....

The solution will have to be a new type of renewable fuel that can be placed quickly into the vehicle, to replenish its energy.

Charging from the mains, currently (there's that pun again) just moves the pollution from the car exhaust to the fossil fuel power station. The sun doesn't power the solar panels at night, when most people will be charging up.

I still think that hydrogen is all we have at the moment and I am accepting its dangers and problems with pressure etc.

That's not to say that some new 'Star Trek' type fuel may be developed in the future.

If batteries were made light and efficient enough; from materials that are plentiful and safe _and_ they did not degrade; there could be an exchange system at fuel stops; swapping your exhausted unit for a charged one.

AND, talking hydrogen and/or batteries, assumes that we stick with electric motors as the propulsion system.

We have been putting fossil fuels into cylinders and detonating it for a hundred odd years; there has to be something better surely?

8)


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## Roller Skate (May 18, 2015)

SPECSMAN said:


> The sun doesn't power the solar panels at night, when most people will be charging up.
> 
> 8)


You do know you can store electricity don't you?


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

SPECSMAN said:


> The sun doesn't power the solar panels at night, when most people will be charging up.


There are lots of ways to make electricity - solar is just one of them (and in our climate, it's not a particularly good one).



SPECSMAN said:


> Charging from the mains, currently (there's that pun again) just moves the pollution from the car exhaust to the fossil fuel power station.


Moving pollution from the car exhaust to the power station is a really really good idea though. It's not only more efficient, it also puts the pollution away from population centres. Obviously renewable energy sources are preferable, but as a stepping stone, fossil fuel power stations creating electricity on demand for cars is definitely heading in the right direction.

Storing that energy in Hydrogen is actually quite inefficient - not to mention the fact that a lot of Hydrogen production comes from burning fossil fuels anyway, so it's not a particularly 'green' fuel. We'd be converting from chemical energy (oil/coal) to electrical energy, then back to chemical energy (Hydrogen) before finally converting back to electrical energy _again _in the car. Each of these steps adds inefficiencies.

And all of that so that we can maintain a particular use-case (i.e. not planning ahead and simply refueling mid journey if needed) purely because we've got used to it. As I said before, our requirements list for a new vehicle energy source shouldn't just be a description of how we use petrol. This needs to be a step change, not just a seamless swap of one fuel source for the next closest thing.


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## Hoggy (May 8, 2002)

Hi, Power stations are most efficient when running at max load/generation, reducing load to allow wind turbines, solar panels etc. to come online reduces the efficiency & in many cases cause more pollution per M Watt generated.
Power Stations running at max load for overnight charging etc means not reducing load so less pollution & more efficient.
Hoggy.


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## SPECSMAN (Oct 11, 2016)

Roller Skate said:


> SPECSMAN said:
> 
> 
> > The sun doesn't power the solar panels at night, when most people will be charging up.
> ...


Not with any degree of efficiency! 
8)


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## SPECSMAN (Oct 11, 2016)

Spandex said:


> SPECSMAN said:
> 
> 
> > Storing that energy in Hydrogen is actually quite inefficient - not to mention the fact that a lot of Hydrogen production comes from burning fossil fuels anyway, so it's not a particularly 'green' fuel. We'd be converting from chemical energy (oil/coal) to electrical energy, then back to chemical energy (Hydrogen) before finally converting back to electrical energy _again _in the car. Each of these steps adds inefficiencies.


I refer back to my earlier point; hydrogen could be made from greener fuels, when the wind blows or the sun shines; and stored. Efficiency is less important, if it is renewable energy that is being used.

I accept that hydrogen has its problems; but it's all we have so far, in my opinion.

8)


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## ashfinlayson (Oct 26, 2013)

There won't be a ban anyway, this is the government trying to get manufactures to spend more time and money on developing cars with alternate power sources to petrol/diesel that is all.

The closest they will get to banning petrol cars outright is banning them from entering city centres; Much like the smoking ban - they won't stop people buying or selling them (that will cost too much), only where they can use them. Once there are enough electric cars on offer they will start taxing the arse out of consumers of fossil fuels for a gradual changeover.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

ashfinlayson said:


> There won't be a ban anyway, this is the government trying to get manufactures to spend more time and money on developing cars with alternate power sources to petrol/diesel that is all.


I would be willing to bet good money that you're wrong. There will be a ban on the sale of *new* IC engine cars, although of course car manufacturers will move to all electric before it happens (otherwise they'd be saddled with a load of worthless stock). Some will argue that the ban is meaningless because manufacturers moved to electric before it came into effect - others will argue that the ban made that happen. It won't matter really.

But long after the ban comes into force, people will still own existing IC cars and they'll run them till they become uneconomical. That could take decades. Even then, people will still own classics and I'm sure the government won't ban them from the roads - what would be the point? A handful of IC classics coming out on sunny weekends aren't going to make much difference to pollution levels.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

SPECSMAN said:


> I refer back to my earlier point; hydrogen could be made from greener fuels, when the wind blows or the sun shines; and stored. Efficiency is less important, if it is renewable energy that is being used.


But it probably won't be renewable energy alone being used, and power stations (nuclear or fossil) will fill in the gaps that renewable leaves, just as it does today. There won't be any need to store energy on a national scale, and especially not in Hydrogen.

In the more distant future, if renewable becomes the sole energy source (I'm not sure that's even possible, but lets go with it) then I suspect a proportion of it will be generated locally (potentially at a residential level) and stored locally in home battery banks. These will be able to feed into the grid on demand, smoothing off usage peaks and recharging in the troughs.

The electric vehicles themselves can even act as battery banks - feeding into the grid at peak times, then recharging again in time for your next trip when the demand has fallen. There will be batteries banks everywhere, in vehicles, homes, wherever - you just have to manage them intelligently.

Like I said, this will involve a step change. You can't think about it in existing terms


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## SPECSMAN (Oct 11, 2016)

Hoggy said:


> Hi, Power stations are most efficient when running at max load/generation, reducing load to allow wind turbines, solar panels etc. to come online reduces the efficiency & in many cases cause more pollution per M Watt generated.
> Power Stations running at max load for overnight charging etc means not reducing load so less pollution & more efficient.
> Hoggy.


Good point, well made.

Future historians will treat our attempts at renewable energy, as the garbage it is.

There is only hydro and tidal power generation, that is predictable and reliable.

And you have almost all the water, in Wales, Hoggy!. 

8)


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## SPECSMAN (Oct 11, 2016)

Spandex said:


> SPECSMAN said:
> 
> 
> > I refer back to my earlier point; hydrogen could be made from greener fuels, when the wind blows or the sun shines; and stored. Efficiency is less important, if it is renewable energy that is being used.
> ...


So you generate your own power, say solar, charge a battery, convert the DC to AC, sell it to the grid.

Hard to imagine anything less efficient.

And you say hydrogen is flawed?!


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

SPECSMAN said:


> So you generate your own power, say solar, charge a battery, convert the DC to AC, sell it to the grid.
> 
> Hard to imagine anything less efficient.
> 
> And you say hydrogen is flawed?!


When the energy source is entirely renewable, you don't need to care about efficiency. The only requirement is that the total energy available to the grid at any moment in time is sufficient to meet demand. Upstream waste of domestic renewable energy is irrelevant.

Oh, and if you're really finding it hard to imagine anything less efficient, try imagining extracting Hydrogen using that electricity, then converting it back in a car... that should do it :wink:

<edit> FYI, Tesla claim a 92% peak efficiency for their battery charger (and that's going from AC to DC as part of the process, so assume even better than that charging a battery straight from solar) and DC to AC invertors tend to be around 95% efficient. Hydrogen production from electrolysis (including energy used compressing for storage) is closer to 50% efficiency. And that doesn't take into account transport of the Hydrogen, or conversion back to electric in the car. Is that all helping you imagine something less efficient than local battery storage?


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## SPECSMAN (Oct 11, 2016)

Spandex said:


> SPECSMAN said:
> 
> 
> > So you generate your own power, say solar, charge a battery, convert the DC to AC, sell it to the grid.
> ...


In my world; hydrogen production would only be powered from renewable energy, and battery replenishing likewise.

In your words "When the energy source is entirely renewable, you don't need to care about efficiency."

The fact remains that all existing technology is flawed.

Some new thinking is required.

8)


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## Roller Skate (May 18, 2015)

SPECSMAN said:


> Roller Skate said:
> 
> 
> > SPECSMAN said:
> ...


Really? You could be right ... i went past Drax yesterday and you could see puddles of electricity all over the fields around it.

Look how far we've come with battery tech in the last ten years, take a look at what's on the horizon ... 
You stick with your Hindenburg fuels cell, I'm going to stick to big batteries.


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## SPECSMAN (Oct 11, 2016)

Roller Skate,

I actually laughed out loud at" Hindenburg Cells"! Very Good

However; you and Spandex are two for a pair.

I've lost the will to argue!

8)

ps. Big batteries = big weight = slow acceleration and poor road-holding.


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## Roller Skate (May 18, 2015)

SPECSMAN said:


> Roller Skate,
> 
> I actually laughed out loud at" Hindenburg Cells"! Very Good
> 
> ...


I feel your pain, it's the most used comment when people mention the Tesla 90D, "poor road handling".

Many years ago i remember reading about the "skateboard chassis". Basically, this chassis was an EV platform designed for unlimited different designs to sit on top of.
The Tesla platform is pretty much that tech and that idea brought to fruition. 
In fact, after test driving one, I nearly bought one over the Mk3 TTS I eventually ordered. The only thing that stopped me was I really wanted another roadster.

Let me tell you something, 0-60 in as little as 2.5 seconds is a big temptation.

My next car after this will be a fully electric vehicle. I'm happy to embrace the Tesla ideology, it makes sense to me. My Tesla will be powered by the solar tiles on my house roof and my garage roof. I'm looking into running the house on another Tesla power cell too, the only thing that runs on gas in my house is the central heating and Mrs Skate.

I'm in my early 50's now, by the time I'm in my early 60's this is where I want to be.*

*Unless anything else pops up that's new tech that hasn't been revealed yet.


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## Stiff (Jun 15, 2015)

SPECSMAN said:


> The sun doesn't power the solar panels at night, when most people will be charging up.


It can be stored quite easily in banks of batteries.
I used to work for a small renewables company (small as in 'me and the boss' - he was a drunk and lost his licence [again] so I was driving him about but I guess that's not important). It was mainly wind turbines as the customers 'payback' time from the initial outlay was around 3-5 years as opposed to solar which was around 10. (This was years ago now and solar has advanced dramatically since then). Most were grid-tied but I remember a farm in Lincolnshire where we installed a large wind turbine (pretty large for domestic but small when compared to industrial). This farm was owned by two old boys - brothers - who lived with their mother, and the farmhouse and outbuildings had never been on-grid. Every morning when they wanted to boil the kettle and put the old black and white portable on, they would go out to the cowshed and hook up a prop shaft from the generator to the tractor and fire the tractor up. Once we'd put up the wind turbine we then placed a bank of batteries in the cow shed. I forget how many now, maybe 24 or 36 and they looked like truck batteries, that kind of thing. I also forget how long these batteries would last in the unlikely event that the wind was down for a while but it was something they wouldn't have to worry about (unless we sent our kids over with their playstations for week). Like i say, this was a fair while ago now and advancements in battery technology, like most technology, improves exponentially.



SPECSMAN said:


> That's not to say that some new 'Star Trek' type fuel may be developed in the future.


It's already happening, though I doubt we'll see this being used on 'cars' in our, or even our childrens' generations.
(OK, it's _'The Sun'_ and I hate that rag but it was the first link I could find)
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2132671/s ... -internet/



SPECSMAN said:


> ..there could be an exchange system at fuel stops; swapping your exhausted unit for a charged one.


This is another idea that was put forward a while back iirc. Your batteries are simply 'on hire' and rather than plug in and wait for the charge, your battery is simply replaced with a fully charged unit ready to roll. This would drastically reduce the waiting time on journeys.


SPECSMAN said:


> We have been putting fossil fuels into cylinders and detonating it for a hundred odd years; there has to be something better surely?
> 8)


 Ironically enough, the first electric car was invented before the first internal combustion engine iirc. It's just that at the time it wasn't really viable, hence the progression onto IC. It's just evolution now that we need to look at possible ways forwards.

For me, I don't have a problem with electric cars. I've always been quite fascinated by them. I've not driven a Tesla like Roller, but I would be *very* tempted if they were within my budget just from what I've seen/heard. ('Ludicrous' mode would be used *a lot*!)
A guy a couple of doors away likes his thirsty beasts. His wife has a new top of the range Range Rover every year and he usually has exotica (can't remember which model Ferrari roadster he had) but a few months back he got himself a BMW i8. He's certainly not the 'green' type so I'm guessing there's a reason. Hint - *it's quick*
You never know, Audi might bring a TTEV out. I'd be certainly interested if the price was right.


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## Roller Skate (May 18, 2015)

Stiff said:


> SPECSMAN said:
> 
> 
> > The sun doesn't power the solar panels at night, when most people will be charging up.
> ...


You're either bored and suicidal or you simply haven't grasped the idea that logic simply doesn't work on some people. :lol:


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## Stiff (Jun 15, 2015)

Roller Skate said:


> You're either bored and suicidal


Actually, I was quite bored. And probably will be suicidal later on - I'm off on the p*** round Leeds all day with a load of Hullensians and will probably do my usual trick of getting off the train at the wrong stop on the way home.











Roller Skate said:


> or you simply haven't grasped the idea that logic simply doesn't work on some people. :lol:


Oh I don't know, Specsbob seems a pretty intelligent guy and will probably evaluate the advantages and disadvantages of the different sources on offer. Spandex puts some very good points across and actually puts it into a kind of perspective that you can't fail to understand


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## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

As usual the Irish ,have jumped on the UK bandwagon .
They eventually adopted the CO2 emission taxation in 2008 (good for diesels..and even the naughty folk who continue to use home heating oil(green diesel) , but now realise that was bad news for the EU emissions targets as diesels dump out lots of crap also.
Now on the "anything you can do we can do better nyah nyah " principle, pure ice cars are to be unavailable new here from 2030.
That will be in my driving lifetime .
How is this electricity generated..we dont have nuclear power here,just some small wind power facilities and hydro electric + nasty carbon generators.

The "hybrid ice/electric" cars are gonna be ok..for now!

How long do you think it will be before there will be separate electricity rates for domestic v transport use.
Separate meters for houses charge points np...
The chancellor has announced 1p extra per kwh for transport electricity in the budget 

and so on.


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## Roller Skate (May 18, 2015)

Stiff said:


> Roller Skate said:
> 
> 
> > You're either bored and suicidal
> ...


I think Specsbob is probably drunken shorthand for "Special Bob" ... he comes across as special. 
Enjoy Leeds ... I don't.

Oh, not sure if it's still open but check out the 3 Legs pub in Leeds, was once voted one of the worst pubs in the country.


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## Stiff (Jun 15, 2015)

Roller Skate said:


> Enjoy Leeds ... I don't.
> 
> Oh, not sure if it's still open but check out the 3 Legs pub in Leeds, was once voted one of the worst pubs in the country.


Cheers buddy, and that sounds like the kind of place these guys will enjoy :lol:


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## SPECSMAN (Oct 11, 2016)

Stiff said:


> For me, I don't have a problem with electric cars. I've always been quite fascinated by them. I've not driven a Tesla like Roller, but I would be *very* tempted if they were within my budget just from what I've seen/heard. ('Ludicrous' mode would be used *a lot*!)


Amen to that!

Electric performance, as described by Roller, coupled with some yet-to-be-invented power technology, would be my choice.

Not sure how green it is to use a solar panels/battery combination though? What is their life span and how much energy to they consume in their manufacture?

8)


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## ZephyR2 (Feb 20, 2013)

An interesting, although somewhat biased article, that raises a few pertinent questions.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/08/electric-cars-wont-get-us-very-far-because-they-cant/


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## bobclive22 (Apr 5, 2010)

> My next car after this will be a fully electric vehicle. I'm happy to embrace the Tesla ideology, it makes sense to me. My Tesla will be powered by the solar tiles on my house roof and my garage roof. I'm looking into running the house on another Tesla power cell too, the only thing that runs on gas in my house is the central heating and Mrs Skate.


So you don`t live in a modern high density housing estate then, lucky you.
I suppose you receive a feed in tariff from you solar panels, ever thought that might be part of the high cost of power imposed on the poorer in society, who unlike yourself can`t afford solar panels, by the way solar panels don`t produce much power on cloudy days in winter or at night.
Spoke to a guy at MOT station, he runs a Nissan leaf, most he has got out of it was 65 miles on a full charge. Then there is the battery replacement cost.



> I'm looking into running the house on another Tesla power cell


. Same old battery tech in fancy cloths, your not serious are you.



> Nissan suggests less than 2p a mile if the electricity is bought off-peak, compared with over 10p for petrol or diesel. Servicing costs are also markedly lower.


Once the smart meter roll out is complete the tariff will certainly be considerably more for charging your car.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

bobclive22 said:


> by the way solar panels don`t produce much power on cloudy days in winter or at night.


The BobBot absolutely smashing it yet again...


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