# Train derailment.



## JorgeTTCQ (May 7, 2002)

My condolences to all family victims to the terrible accident happened yesterday night at north west Spain with 77 dead people at the moment.
Causes are not established yet, but seems the train was with excess of speed.


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## j8keith (Jun 26, 2009)

JorgeTTCQ said:


> My condolences to all family victims to the terrible accident happened yesterday night at north west Spain with 77 dead people at the moment.
> Causes are not established yet, but seems the train was with excess of speed.


+1, tragic loss of life.


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## marcelloTTc (Nov 20, 2008)

Really sad news,condolences to all family involved....


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## jamman (May 6, 2002)

Horrible news


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## JorgeTTCQ (May 7, 2002)

Terrible accident.
These is the video of the crash moment taken by a cctv camera:

http://elpais.com/elpais/2013/07/25/videos/1374749180_392391.html

The train should go to 80 km/h on that corner and going over 190 km/h.


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## conlechi (May 6, 2006)

Very sad news , watched the video the train was well over the speed limit , driver error :?


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## Danny1 (Sep 2, 2010)

Awful accident


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

Quite shocking with modern safety systems you can still have an accident like that. Harrowing testimony on the radio this morning. :?


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

jeezussssssssss fookin ellmman.. that is one shocking video !!! how can it be doing more than twice the sp limit !!,,,,,, condolinces to all involved


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## igotone (Mar 10, 2010)

Looks like a criminal piece of recklessness by the driver. Bloody tragic and needless!


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

igotone said:


> Looks like a criminal piece of recklessness by the driver. Bloody tragic and needless!


I'd question the safety systems too. There perhaps should have been alarms going off or even automatic safety governor intervention happening. Have they really got a system that allows a driver of a train to drive as fast as they like?


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## igotone (Mar 10, 2010)

Well all trains have a 'dead man's handle' which stops the train if anything happens to the driver, so it seems ludicrous that there isn't some sort of automatic intervention to prevent a tragedy like this. I bet there'll be systems introduced now.


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## JorgeTTCQ (May 7, 2002)

Driver is alive, tomorrow he is going to be interrogated by police.
The high speed train was modern, and as you said it must have the automatic stop system and speed control, so, what's happened?
I think the cause is between human error and a mistake in automatic braking systems.
There are now 80 dead people, and 20 more between life and death.

Terrible.


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## Nyxx (May 1, 2012)

Hideous crash.
I cannot help think it could be a systems failure, it beggars belief if it was the driver alone.


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## YoungOldUn (Apr 12, 2011)

Must be horrendous for everyone involved.


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

Just watched it on the German news.

They said that there were no warnings/signals on the line leading up to the 80kmh bend so the driver didn't (?know to?) slow down from the 190kmh it was doing.

Horrendous crash that should never have happened


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

The preceeding tunnel would have obscurred the bend from the driver's view. Surely there should be more than a sign anyway? You need plenty of warning for a high speed train. The train owners ruled out technical malfunction very quikly - seemed a bit quick given the damage - unless they knew there was no speed limiting system and the train was going too fast which was the cause. The driver reportedly said he was driving at 190kmph - taken to be an admission of guilt at first - but perhaps it was more an expression of disbelief that there should have been such a bend when doing that speed? Something isn't right.


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

A train expert this morning on the radio was saying that in this country trains are fitted with automatic speed governors but that it's possible to override them manually and an examination of the black box will tell if this had been done - if the system is fitted on the Spanish train. She also said that from the crash footage there was a possibility of structural failure of the first carriage and that our Pendoleno trains are designed to stay upright on derailment which seems not to have happened in this case. There also seems to be more talk of the driver boasting of speed on FaceBook or something but seems a bit wreckless to translate such a boast to going twice the speed limit on a bend.

Perhaps Jorge could translate what this video is saying:
http://elpais.com/elpais/2013/07/25/vid ... autoplay=1


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## CWM3 (Mar 4, 2012)

Horrific incident and footage.

Having seen that video several times on TV, its either an illusion or at 4 seconds something appears to be happening behind the loco, as if the carriage is already uncoupling, what it does not show is how much curve it has already travelled through to that point, but the ferocity and speed of the impact is really sobering.


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## igotone (Mar 10, 2010)

CWM3 said:


> Horrific incident and footage.
> 
> Having seen that video several times on TV, its either an illusion or at 4 seconds something appears to be happening behind the loco, as if the carriage is already uncoupling, what it does not show is how much curve it has already travelled through to that point, but the ferocity and speed of the impact is really sobering.


It seems they're investigating the possibility of structural failure of the first carriage behind the loco being responsible for the derailment. It is a frightening piece of video footage - most of the passengers would have had zero chance of survival being thrown around following an impact like that at that speed.


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

John-H said:


> Surely there should be more than* a *sign anyway?


Quite. That's why ZDF spoke of sign*s*/signal*s* = both plural


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## JorgeTTCQ (May 7, 2002)

Police believe that the driver caused the accident by 'reckless'.
Everything is speculation, should wait because the investigation continues.

Seems that all the railway has the ERTMS system (automatic speed regulator), BUT, is not activated the last 4 kilometres before the train station. On this distance there are another system but depending from the driver, who must reduce the speed manually.



> There also seems to be more talk of the driver boasting of speed on FaceBook or something but seems a bit wreckless to translate such a boast to going twice the speed limit on a bend.


About driver's facebook account, he put one year ago a picture with a train speedometer at 200 km/h, telling that it was a pleasure to drive at this speed without speed cameras.


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

Hi Jorge,

Thing is, comments like that on FaceBook could just be a joke but gain significance now. As you say it's speculation to presume he was wreckless until all the facts are known. Was that video link I posted talking about the "ERTMS system" and "another system" leading up to the station? Sorry my Spanish is not very good


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

i did notice that it was the first carriage that started to derail first, not the engine,, maybe this would indicate a failue there, or maybe the carriage being lighter than the engine it would lift easier, or maybe the extra kinetic energy of the engine would have put that off the track sooner,,,, mmm , the vid that the bbc is showing stops sooner than the euro channels are showing , they show the engine almost rolling over before hitting the camers, how the driver survived that is unbelievable,
i think it is predictable that the operators are denying any mechy failure,( almost before the dust had settled ! ) and due to the massive rail / track development going on in spain just now regarding the chinese line from the south right up throo spain, ( and on into russia ) the authorities will be looking for a scapegoat to reasure an already sceptical spanish populace of the viability of major rail / track development.


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## jamman (May 6, 2002)

Breaking BBC News - The driver is refusing to answer any Police questions 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23465992


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

" ello ello ello, is this your train sir ? "


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## igotone (Mar 10, 2010)

jamman said:


> Breaking BBC News - The driver is refusing to answer any Police questions
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23465992


On legal advice probably "Say nothing, let them prove it."


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

A tragic loss of life and for those survivors that are either injured physically or scarred mentally it will never be over!!! The blame lies squarely with the train company for not having fail safes installed in case of driver error or madness, or for a system failure. They knew the track at that point was 80 max and so the train should have been slowing half a mile back I think.


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## igotone (Mar 10, 2010)

The driver has now been charged with manslaughter and has apparently admitted to an examining judge who granted him bail that he acted recklessly. It's not looking good for him as it seems he's been driving on this line for over a year so would be very familiar with this track and the bend.


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

I'd heard he'd driven this track many times. I'd also heard he'd just told the control room he was driving at 190 kmph prior to the bend. Was that, "Wahey! I'm doing 190 kmph!", or "Help! I'm doing 190 kmph!"? Why would he tell them he was doing over twice the speed limit? Was this a cry for help or was this some sort of boast and he'd been upping the speed every time to see how far he could push it? What would doing this speed feel like - would passengers be thrown about and drinks spilt? Wouldn't there be complaints if this sort of thing was going on? If the control room knew are they not responsible too? Or are we meant to believe this was a one off? Over twice the speed limit with an experienced driver???


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

Having been a passenger on a train doing 200kmh (on a straight line) I can say it's a non event. Can't speak for anything else.


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

John-H said:


> I'd heard he'd driven this track many times. I'd also heard he'd just told the control room he was driving at 190 kmph prior to the bend. Was that, "Wahey! I'm doing 190 kmph!", or "Help! I'm doing 190 kmph!"? Why would he tell them he was doing over twice the speed limit? Was this a cry for help or was this some sort of boast and he'd been upping the speed every time to see how far he could push it? What would doing this speed feel like - would passengers be thrown about and drinks spilt? Wouldn't there be complaints if this sort of thing was going on? If the control room knew are they not responsible too? Or are we meant to believe this was a one off? Over twice the speed limit with an experienced driver???


the train was a HS one John, but the section of track he was on was max 80kph not the 190 or 200kph as normal


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

the section of track which he crashed on was 80k limit but the section immediatly before was , i believe, 120k coming out of a tunnel with , aparently, no clear indication of the reduction,,,, however i believe, as here, the drivers are trained on the particular section of rail before they are allowed to drive it and this guy had driven this route many times before.


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

roddy said:


> the section of track which he crashed on was 80k limit but the section immediatly before was , i believe, 120k coming out of a tunnel with , aparently, no clear indication of the reduction,,,, however i believe, as here, the drivers are trained on the particular section of rail before they are allowed to drive it and this guy had driven this route many times before.


So guilty and ŵe stone him?. ................


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

well i expect yo will be tendering for hot blasting !!  ,,, maybe get a special rate coz i think there maybe an italian coach driver along next :roll:, not to mention another tally cruise liner captain,, san franciscan airline pilot,, swiz train drivers ....... shirt where is this gonna end !!


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

My shot contaminated with bloody foreigners lol


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

eeehh,, pardon ?? :roll:


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## JorgeTTCQ (May 7, 2002)

Last news about the fatal crash, the driver has admitted he was completely absent and he didn't know in wich part of the way was, for that reason he didn't stop. 
He thought he was 4 or 5 kilometres back.

When he saw the 80 km/h corner at 190 Km/h was too late. On the last four kilometres, the stop system is manual, not automatic, and all the responsibility is for the driver on final kilometres.


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## igotone (Mar 10, 2010)

The guy is of course entitled to a fair hearing and it's up to a court to decide his guilt, but it doesn't look good for this driver does it? 79 people who entrusted their safety to this guy are dead - call me old fashioned but I think he has to be accountable for that if the blame lies with him.


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

JorgeTTCQ said:


> the driver has admitted he was completely absent and he didn't know in wich part of the way was,


I assume that a full medical health report needs to be done on the train driver as being absent minded can have a medical issue at base
[not wanting to absolve him from possible/likely guilt]


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

Human failings, whatever the cause, was the reason for the automatic braking system being introduced. A pity it did not extend far enough.


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## JorgeTTCQ (May 7, 2002)

A3DFU said:


> JorgeTTCQ said:
> 
> 
> > the driver has admitted he was completely absent and he didn't know in wich part of the way was,
> ...


Hi Dani,
May be "absent" is not the correct word, I mean distracted, not paying attention... caused by something. Police is investigating if the driver was using whatsapp, facebook or something on his smartphone moments before the crash.
The driver has recognized no health problems before the crash.



John-H said:


> Human failings, whatever the cause, was the reason for the automatic braking system being introduced. A pity it did not extend far enough.


Hi John,
Completely agree with you. I don't understand why there are a modern automatic safety system during 900 kilometres and not in the last four kilometres.


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

JorgeTTCQ said:


> A3DFU said:
> 
> 
> > JorgeTTCQ said:
> ...


Hi Jorge,

Ah, ok; I misunderstood!

If the driver was distracted by multi-media gadgets then the full force of the law will and, in my opinion, should hit him


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

def + 1 on that !!! :x


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

stone him................ :roll:


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

you are just trying to save money !!


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

roddy said:


> you are just trying to save money !!


spain is basically bankrupt so yes stone him as it's free lol


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## Nyxx (May 1, 2012)

They said on the news last night, he was on his phone and "could" get upto 12 years in jail. If that's the full force of justice I give up.
[smiley=bigcry.gif]


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

Nyxx said:


> They said on the news last night, he was on his phone and "could" get upto 12 years in jail. If that's the full force of justice I give up.
> [smiley=bigcry.gif]


he was " on the phone " to the rail control !! not quite the same as facebook !!!


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

roddy said:


> Nyxx said:
> 
> 
> > They said on the news last night, he was on his phone and "could" get upto 12 years in jail. If that's the full force of justice I give up.
> ...


And to top it off,_ they phoned him_... I have a feeling more people are going to be in trouble than just the driver.


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

stone em all then..........


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

Amazing how blame turns on the head of a pin!


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

John-H said:


> Amazing how blame turns on the head of a pin!


Well, I can't see the driver escaping the bulk of the blame for this, unless they suddenly discover a mechanical fault somewhere... But if the control room is routinely phoning drivers while they're in control of the train I can imagine there will be a few more necks lined up on the block next to the drivers.


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

Well quite. You could argue he shouldn't answer - but then what if it's an emergency about a track problem coming up?


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## JorgeTTCQ (May 7, 2002)

Seems he was speaking with control about his new itinerary and looking something on a book or road map, because the investigators can listen paper noises on the black box recording. He lost track of space and pushed the brake only few seconds before the crash.
Police has said the driver wasn't using his personal mobile, sms, whatsapp, facebook, etc... during the trip.


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

If I was doing that whilst driving I'd be prosecuted for an accident as a result. Ok, train drivers have longer to react to events and perhaps different rules should apply but this would seem to indicate a large hole in procedures previously accepted by one or more parties.


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

Apparently the phone call which distracted the driver was from the conductor who wanted to know which platform they were stopping at.

The phone call where the driver mentioned how fast he was driving and being distracted, was made when he was trapped in his cab after the accident invoking the emergency protocol, in which he also expressed repeated concern for the passengers.

Apparently he had complained about the bend previously. The bend has now been fitted with automatic breaking.

The driver and the train company are being charged with 79 cases of homicide. The question of why this section of track was not fitted with automatic braking is being considered.


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