# V6 with an HPA Turbo- build thread



## lotuselanplus2s

I've been intending to post a build thread for a while in case it was of help to others also thinking of going down the same or similar routes to myself. I thought it might also help if I put down all the approx costs as well as this is a major issue for all & is often glossed over or missed out in threads.

Background:
I bought my 54 plate manual V6 in June 2012 with 105k miles on the clock for £4,995 from a dealer. It was totally standard & has run perfectly ever since with only servicing & fuel costs incurred.
Whilst very very happy with the car I unfortunately discovered this forum & saw Steve's car V6RUL + build thread & subsequently RFORD71's HPA build thread. It got me thinking&#8230;..

I decided to see if I could be satisfied with just a bit extra hence in April 2013 I got a Milltek resonated exhaust fitted via the group buy (£350?) + a pipercross panel filter (£30) + remap by APS (£300). APS are an excellent company with very nice people & the car was improved with a fruitier note. I also got a Billstein B8 suspension kit + full polybushing + top mounts (£850) from Awesome & I think it cost Bradley's about £150 to fit.

On July 30th 2013 I ordered from HPA in Canada their 20th anniversary turbo kit, which included (copied & pasted from their website):
Liquid Cooled Integrated Short Runner Intake Manifold
After Cooler Package for Integrated Intake Air-to-Water Intercooler (tank + pipes + pump etc)
Cast Exhaust Manifold, with External Oxygen Sensors
EFR 76/70 Turbo, featuring Gamma-Ti Turbine Wheels and Dual Ceramic Ball Bearing Design
Stainless Steel Down Pipe 70mm
Stainless Steel Turbo Assembly Heatshield
Custom Wrapped Silicone Piping with Stainless Steel Clamps
Head Spacer Plate to Lower Compression Head Gaskets and Head Bolts + longer timing chain
Braided Stainless Steel Oil Feed Line
Oil Return Lines
Performance ECU Upgrade

As part of the deal I got some extra's thrown + I decided to go for the upgraded version with bigger injectors + inline fuel pump. My logic was that whilst the car was in bits I might as well do everything as realistically I would be unlikely to want to go back & do a load again.

The extra bits were:
Race Grade Connecting Rod Bearings
750ml High Flow Fuel Injectors
Large MAF
High flow 100C Cat Cores
Inline Fuel pump

Total cost was $10,499 + $2,344 for the upgrade + $650 shipping to the UK + 20% VAT. There wasn't any Duty for me (I declared everything legitimately) but I believe others have incurred this.
With the $ : £ at 1.63 it equals £8,280 + £1,575 VAT = £9,855

There was quite a bit of delay as HPA were moving premises in August + they needed to make up bespoke parts as most of their business is Golf based + left hand drive + they'd only recently swopped to the EFR turbo i.e. my RHD Mk1 TT was a guinea pig that they didn't have in front of them to check things fitted.

The kit arrived via UPS beginning November 2013 & I booked the car in mid-November 2013 to my local garage RJ Bradley's. The instruction to Bradley's was to remove / split the engine & replace etc anything that was worn or worth replacing at that point with no cost restraint - just do what was best.

The kit quality etc was / is beautiful & includes absolutely everything you could think of (even down to cable ties) + a very very comprehensive build manual with lots of photo's etc. As the build progressed we did find a couple of issues that were mainly due to my car being the guinea pig:

Down pipe didn't fit. HPA were very very quick to sort this & get a completely new one made up & sent over (they first had to find a R/H car in Canada to measure / fit one but did within a week&#8230;.)

ECU couldn't be re-programmed. HPA need the actual ECU sent to them to enable them to put the new map onto but it needs to be OEM whereas mine had been Revo'd by APS. APS were very helpful (thanks Ed) at helping sort this out & eventually the ECU came back from Canada.

Problems re-setting timing / chain. A common problem on the V6 but HPA now have very simple online video's showing how it's done.

A small bracket for the manifold radiator had to be amended. Bradley's did this very easily.

Whilst it was in bits Bradley's also did some work to the A/C, fitted some Cookbot defcon's, replaced the water pump + some other stuff. The Clutch was also worn out so we took the opportunity of dropping in an uprated Mardi Gras Racing clutch + a solid flywheel. The dash pod was also sent to BBA Reman (£100) & one of the headlights sent off to Awesome (£80?) for fixing.

The build took a long long time for various reasons but probably the main one was Bradley's having free time between other jobs. HPA estimate it will take 60 hours for the build but with all the other bits & bobs mine must have been quite a bit more plus delays in waiting for bits to come back from Canada etc. There was also a month's delay with a mysterious problem that eventually turned out to be a malfunctioning MAF - cost to fix was £0 as we just re-used the internal parts from the OEM MAF & fitted them into the new Big MAF (it's actually an RS4 MAF).

The total cost for the fitting all the above inc. the clutch unit & A/C parts etc + a new MOT was £5,200.

I didn't get the car back until June but I wasn't pushing very hard as I wanted the job done properly & with lots of care. I've driven it for approx 1,000 miles since then with the first few hundred at low revs.

When first fitted the kit didn't come with a boost controller (I believe they now all come with digital one's) so Bradley's fitted a simple manual one & quickly managed to get bhp from 350 up to 400 on their rolling road however it was immediately obvious a proper digital one was needed. This is being fitted as I type this & I'm intending to get the TT mapped using this as the kit / engine shows it's more than capable of taking a lot more boost as currently boost drops off above about 4,000 rpm.

Driving experience:
probably the bit most people are interested in&#8230;&#8230;

I use my car mainly for the school run (hence booster seats in the back) & occasionally to go to work meetings hence I need something reliable + I like the OEM look. The only visual differences are Milltek pipes sticking out the back, approx 15mm drop from the Bilstein kit & Les's £5 leather door handle covers (excellent mod!!!!) i.e it looks standard to all but the TT nerd.

The car sounds slightly rumblier because of the Miiltek but possibly the Turbo mutes it down a bit?

On start up the main thing you notice is the noise of the inline fuel pump as it's always on (with the ignition) & it's quite loud at low revs. As you accelerate lightly it's as a normal V6 up to about 1,800 revs at which point you start to here a whooshing noise coming in (that's the valve dumping pressure) & this whoosh carries on until about 3,000 revs by which point the sound of the exhaust takes over. On fuller throttle openings you don't get the whooshing in the same way.

Acceleration is normal'ish up until 1,500 revs at which point you start to feel the turbo coming on board & by 3,000 revs it's pushing hard. The acceleration is then constant all the way to the red line. As you can imagine the acceleration is a hell of a lot more than I've experienced before but it's very very controllable & not scary. Because of the 4wd system you don't get any wheel spin or either end rising / squirming - it just accelerates.

I'm only running approx 375 bhp at the moment but it's still a hell of a lot better than normal. After the digital controller is fitted + remapped (& now that it's run in) I would expect it to be well above 400 bhp. HPA suggest 450-500bhp but I very much doubt that & frankly I don't care as the car is for me to enjoy driving rather than looking at graphs etc (but i will post a graph when it's completed Lee&#8230

An added bonus is the DIS is confused by the big MAF hence my fuel consumption looks like it's 35+ mpg whereas it's more like 20 mpg from my guestimates. The HPA map is happy to run anything from 92 RON as it has to cope with US fuel - I've run on both standard & super unleaded & quite frankly you can't tell the difference, either makes the car go like S**t off a shovel.

Some thoughts I've had that might be of interest are:
- A DSG gearbox would probably get much better 0-60 times as the slowest part of the package is me changing gears as it accelerate's so quickly. However I've never got on with auto's of any sort + that would be another element to have to 'tweak' & 'tune' to the engine.
-The wide power band means you can stick in one gear if you wish.
-The acceleration anywhere between approx 30 & 100mph is pretty constant - it doesn't run out of puff.
-UK roads have too many bends too close together - you really notice how close they all are now.
-To start with the engine was really rough & got bogged down when you accelerated & over fuelled it but within a few miles it improved dramatically & now everything is really sweet. The clutch has also lessened in both 'bite' & 'weight' as it's bedded in.
-There's still a small amount of turbo lag, as with all turbo cars, but as it's quite a large engine anyway that's not a problem.
-My suspension etc set up + tyres seems to work very well with the set up - I haven't felt the need to upgrade anything for months now!
-My insurance, with everything declared, went from £185 to £490 (fully comp).

Would I do it again:
I need a 4 seat car hence a 911 is the only other car I might consider but that's a bit too brash / showy for me + to get this power would cost ££££. If I turn up at meetings or at school people tend to say 'that's a nice car' rather than possibly think 'you must be a knob' or 'we're paying too much for your products if you can afford that'.
I'm unlikely to get another chance to have a car I like as much with such silly amounts of power that it makes me grin each time I go out in it + the neighbours have no idea what it's actually like.
So in conclusion, yes I'm a happy bunny.

Below are some photo's + one of them shows where the small water tank for the manifold radiator is hidden underneath the cover / empty battery box. As you can see, I do like stealth.... sadly the existing airbox had to go as it needed a very big filter.


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## jamman

If it makes you happy that is all that matters.... enjoy it mate.

Choosing the correct company to do the build is so important.

Look forward to seeing the pictures.


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## neilc

Nice write up and I'm sure the combo of the V6 and a turbo is great but big money spent on modding but then I can't talk :lol: :wink:


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## timmeh2k

Looks like a nice build  How well do the v6 brakes hold up with all the extra performance on tap??


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## conlechi

Interesting write up and thanks for sharing 

Cars sounds like it performs really well ..... as it should


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## David C

Great write up, but small correction needed unless you're into time travel...!


lotuselanplus2s said:


> On July 30th *2014* I ordered from HPA in Canada their 20th anniversary turbo kit...
> The kit arrived via UPS beginning November *2013*


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## lotuselanplus2s

David C said:


> Great write up, but small correction needed unless you're into time travel...!
> 
> 
> lotuselanplus2s said:
> 
> 
> 
> On July 30th *2014* I ordered from HPA in Canada their 20th anniversary turbo kit...
> The kit arrived via UPS beginning November *2013*
Click to expand...

Ooops-- corrected!


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## lotuselanplus2s

timmeh2k said:


> Looks like a nice build  How well do the v6 brakes hold up with all the extra performance on tap??


I've got the OEM V6 brakes & had been very conscious I might be underbraked, however I've found no problems with them- my driving style isn't particularly hard on brakes + being a manual you do get engine braking, both of which may have a bearing.

If I go on a trackday then possibly I'll change my mind....


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## lotuselanplus2s

neilc said:


> Nice write up and I'm sure the combo of the V6 and a turbo is great but big money spent on modding but then I can't talk :lol: :wink:


We've got an XC90 that's lost similar amounts in depreciation over the last 4 years & that's boring as hell - I'm enroute to being an old git hence grab some fun when you can.

Also the payments were split up a bit because of the length of the build.

Realistically what other car can you get that's 400+ bhp, looks nice (i.e. not a barge or japanese) & is £20k? (hope there aren't any good answers as then I'll be gutted)

I've only followed your spending pattern + it's less than 20% of what Steve's spent..... :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## V6RUL

About time you came out of the woodwork officially.
The 3 Muskateers, possibly 4.. :roll: 
Steve


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## A8VCG

Completely agree with the DSG for standing start acceleration. Your build sounds a whole lot like mine Pete and Autograph had well over 100 hours into my car. I'm updating mines but my attention span doesn't allow 2,000 words ;-)


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## Danny1

Looks like it could be a great package, out of curiosity did you not fancy a mildly tuned TTS?? Seems to tick all the same boxes etc?


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## Spandex

lotuselanplus2s said:


> Realistically what other car can you get that's 400+ bhp, looks nice (i.e. not a barge or japanese) & is £20k? (hope there aren't any good answers as then I'll be gutted)


996 Turbo? Ok, they start around £24k, so as long as you don't spend any more you'll be fine..


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## V6RUL

A8VCG said:


> Completely agree with the DSG for standing start acceleration.


I agree that the DSG DQ250 is quick off the mark and looses very little boost, if any, when on it and changing through the gears, however, upto a certain level the gearbox should be ok..but no guarantees as the box is known for chewing 4th or 5th gears..
My 4th..

Im now running the DSG DQ350 which is more beefier, but like a lady, im treating her nicely and havn't launched..yet.

Its ok raising the power levels, but can your tranny cope with it.
Steve


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## neil_audiTT

Yes lad.

The company i'd use, and the bits i'd bolt on. Good to know you're happy with it all. 8)


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## lotuselanplus2s

Hi Steve & Craig

I wanted to wait until it was fully sorted before putting up a thread but decided it might be a while before the mapping is complete & I ought to do a write up before I forgot.

Also others might be thinking about the HPA DTM system & my experiences might be of benefit.

Not sure I'm a Musketeer but I won't be complaining about the comparison - better than being thought of as a Muppet.

I'm looking forward to reading your's Craig, especailly your thoughts on reflection + driving experiences.

cheers
Peter


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## lotuselanplus2s

Danny1 said:


> Looks like it could be a great package, out of curiosity did you not fancy a mildly tuned TTS?? Seems to tick all the same boxes etc?


I'm afraid the Mk2 does absolutely nothing for me - I'd be just as happy with a Fiesta.

I'm a Classic Car man really but the Mk1 TT is about the only car from the last twenty years I actually am interested in & like.


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## lotuselanplus2s

Spandex said:


> lotuselanplus2s said:
> 
> 
> 
> Realistically what other car can you get that's 400+ bhp, looks nice (i.e. not a barge or japanese) & is £20k? (hope there aren't any good answers as then I'll be gutted)
> 
> 
> 
> 996 Turbo? Ok, they start around £24k, so as long as you don't spend any more you'll be fine..
Click to expand...

Mmmm, OK, that's a fair point.
I'm getting interested - oh bugger, I'm afraid I'm going to have bar you from ever posting on anything I read again :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

They are nice aren't they.
I would look a knob in one though - wife would like it........there you go, I knew I'd find a reason for not getting one!


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## lotuselanplus2s

neil_audiTT said:


> Yes lad.
> 
> The company i'd use, and the bits i'd bolt on. Good to know you're happy with it all. 8)


It's like being a kid again - press the loud pedal & WHOOSH you're off. The four year olds love it!


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## V6RUL

lotuselanplus2s said:


> neil_audiTT said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes lad.
> 
> The company i'd use, and the bits i'd bolt on. Good to know you're happy with it all. 8)
> 
> 
> 
> It's like being a kid again - press the loud pedal & WHOOSH you're off. The four year olds love it!
Click to expand...

^ This
Steve


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## David C

lotuselanplus2s said:


> Spandex said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lotuselanplus2s said:
> 
> 
> 
> Realistically what other car can you get that's 400+ bhp, looks nice (i.e. not a barge or japanese) & is £20k? (hope there aren't any good answers as then I'll be gutted)
> 
> 
> 
> 996 Turbo? Ok, they start around £24k, so as long as you don't spend any more you'll be fine..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Mmmm, OK, that's a fair point.
> I'm getting interested - oh bugger, I'm afraid I'm going to have bar you from ever posting on anything I read again :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> They are nice aren't they.
> I would look a knob in one though - wife would like it........there you go, I knew I'd find a reason for not getting one!
Click to expand...

A 996 is a nice place to be and I seriously looked around at them after borrowing a friends 996 C4 a few years ago. But I need a more usable boot than the 996 has.


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## lotuselanplus2s

996's- If you can't get a double pushchair in the boot + x2 kids booster seats in the back then it's a no go for me - phew....


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## A8VCG

lotuselanplus2s said:


> 996's- If you can't get a double pushchair in the boot + x2 kids booster seats in the back then it's a no go for me - phew....


&#8230;that and they are not very bonnie!&#8230;not compared to the 993 or the 997. I know I wouldn't have a 996 and that's not to say it's not a good car, I just wouldn't have one. The interior is average... the headlights - don't get me started on the headlights!


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## fixitagaintomoz

lotuselanplus2s said:


> neilc said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice write up and I'm sure the combo of the V6 and a turbo is great but big money spent on modding but then I can't talk :lol: :wink:
> 
> 
> 
> We've got an XC90 that's lost similar amounts in depreciation over the last 4 years & that's boring as hell - I'm enroute to being an old git hence grab some fun when you can.
> 
> Also the payments were split up a bit because of the length of the build.
> 
> Realistically what other car can you get that's 400+ bhp, looks nice (i.e. not a barge or japanese) & is £20k? (hope there aren't any good answers as then I'll be gutted)
> 
> I've only followed your spending pattern + it's less than 20% of what Steve's spent..... :lol: :lol: :lol:
Click to expand...

if i had 20k.......

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.vi ... 71&alt=web

Still impressed with your build dont get me wrong, but 500 ponies and the best v8 soundtrack in my opinion.....


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## mstew

Love it, v6 turbo seems the way to go. The 1.8ts really are like driving with a rubber band, you really have to wind it up before you get anything useful!

For under 20k though I would be tempted by a maserati 3200. 370bhp stock, 420mapped. Coupe and 4 proper seats. Did I mention 3.2litre twin turbo?


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## L33JSA

lotuselanplus2s said:


> (but i will post a graph when it's completed Lee&#8230


Ah....good man!! Everyone likes to see graphs!!  

Glad you're happy with it though....get all the hoses standardised one colour too in the bay....oh & get your rocker cover refurbed - will make the world of difference.

Other than that it does look pretty OE under there.


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## lotuselanplus2s

L33JSA said:


> lotuselanplus2s said:
> 
> 
> 
> (but i will post a graph when it's completed Lee&#8230
> 
> 
> 
> Ah....good man!! Everyone likes to see graphs!!
> 
> Glad you're happy with it though....get all the hoses standardised one colour too in the bay....oh & get your rocker cover refurbed - will make the world of difference.
> 
> Other than that it does look pretty OE under there.
Click to expand...

Agggggh - don't remind me!!!!
I keep trying to forget both of those every time I lift the bonnet.

When it was in bits they were supposed to buff up the rocker cover - unfortunately it was already back in the bay when I realised they'd missed it (bloody machine shop was approx 8' from where the car was so no excuse grrrrrrrrrrrr).

& that horrible blue hose!!!!!!!!! It was the only hose in the correct size they could get at the time, so they said, but it still looks horrible.

My 'to do' list is now get a black hose & get the Dremel out to polish up the cover (or can you think of any better way?) I've already had a quick try by hand but it was pointless.


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## lotuselanplus2s

I'm afraid suggestions of Mercedes & Masserati leave me a bit cold, both are practical 4 seat saloon's & frankly a bit too Chavtastic for me.

One's a make for fat old git's / taxi drivers (hence auto's) & the other's made of old tin can's, held together with peanut butter (+ why does it have small portholes down the side of the front of the car?) & driven by ageing latin lothario's en-route to a Bunga Bunga party.

I'm happier being a hairdresser in a tarted up Golf.


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## L33JSA

Get it removed and get it powder coated - it's the only proper way of doing it for a proper durable, quality finish.

Or just find a used one on eBay and get that powdercoated then swap them over if you can't afford to have the car off the road.


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## V6RUL

Or maybe i should just leave my spare Pureklas polished cover here..

Did i mention that i might sell it..
Steve


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## jamman

V6RUL said:


> Or maybe i should just leave my spare Pureklas polished cover here..
> 
> Did i mention that i might sell it..
> Steve


Sorry Steve that fits right alongside your vented bonnet it's just chavvy, powder coating def the way to go.

Looking forward to seeing these 2 cars maybe on the track at ADI ?


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## L33JSA

I'm with Jamman here.....wouldnt fit in with his engine bay.

Crackleblack powdercoat like the intake I reckon would look smart.


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## timmeh2k

lotuselanplus2s said:


> timmeh2k said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like a nice build  How well do the v6 brakes hold up with all the extra performance on tap??
> 
> 
> 
> I've got the OEM V6 brakes & had been very conscious I might be underbraked, however I've found no problems with them- my driving style isn't particularly hard on brakes + being a manual you do get engine braking, both of which may have a bearing.
> 
> If I go on a trackday then possibly I'll change my mind....
Click to expand...

Sounds good, it will absolutely fly on track so I'd expect you will get them overheating pretty quickly... Brembo and Tarox have some lovely looking BBKs  haha a piece of piss to do compared to the extensive work you've had done so far too


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## Converted2VW

This is a sweet build!

Glad you are enjoying it...I'd do this in a heartbeat if I had a 3.2lt


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## mstew

lotuselanplus2s said:


> I'm afraid suggestions of Mercedes & Masserati leave me a bit cold, both are practical 4 seat saloon's & frankly a bit too Chavtastic for me


No comment on the build quality as I don't own one but it really doesn't look like a saloon car to me.... :roll: 








....Just saying as you asked.

I do love a red coupe though, v6 and turbo in manual form just makes it perfect IMO


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## A8VCG

mstew said:


> lotuselanplus2s said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm afraid suggestions of Mercedes & Masserati leave me a bit cold, both are practical 4 seat saloon's & frankly a bit too Chavtastic for me
> 
> 
> 
> No comment on the build quality as I don't own one but it really doesn't look like a saloon car to me.... :roll:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ....Just saying as you asked.
> 
> I do love a red coupe though, v6 and turbo in manual form just makes it perfect IMO
Click to expand...

Something like this?


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## lotuselanplus2s

mstew said:


> lotuselanplus2s said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm afraid suggestions of Mercedes & Masserati leave me a bit cold, both are practical 4 seat saloon's & frankly a bit too Chavtastic for me
> 
> 
> 
> No comment on the build quality as I don't own one but it really doesn't look like a saloon car to me.... :roll:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ....Just saying as you asked.
> 
> I do love a red coupe though, v6 and turbo in manual form just makes it perfect IMO
Click to expand...

Apologies - I'm getting my Fiat's (oops Maseratti's) mixed up. If it's good enough for Mr Burlyscone'e then who am I to disagree.

It's still a bit like the way BMW turned there Saloon's into GT's.


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## lotuselanplus2s

L33JSA said:


> I'm with Jamman here.....wouldnt fit in with his engine bay.
> 
> Crackleblack powdercoat like the intake I reckon would look smart.


They've also got a powdercoating set up in the garage, again about 8' from the damn car, which they used for some of the brackets but I declined on the Rocker cover - in hindsight maybe I should have said 'yes'.

Seriously though, when the 'other half' looks in the engine bay (not sure which century that'll be) she'll think 'oh that looks like a boring crap OEM engine, better not ask for a new kitchen / bathroom / house just yet' so maybe there is a benefit in having a rough old rocker cover........ not sure I'm convinced though :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## lotuselanplus2s

Converted2VW said:


> This is a sweet build!
> 
> Glad you are enjoying it...I'd do this in a heartbeat if I had a 3.2lt


Have a chat with RFORD71 on the VWVortex forum - he'll persuade you!!

You're in the right continent & only a few (thousand) miles from HPA & Rob. Go on, you know it makes sense....


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## lotuselanplus2s

It's been in the garage for a few issues & extra's but should be back later this week - overheating because both fans were knackered, Apexi Electronic Boost Controller (EBC) fitting, race cat fitting, A/C not working.

Once it's back I should be able to book it in for custom mapping......


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## V6RUL

lotuselanplus2s said:


> It's been in the garage for a few issues & extra's but should be back later this week - overheating because both fans were knackered, Apexi Electronic Boost Controller (EBC) fitting, race cat fitting, A/C not working.
> 
> Once it's back I should be able to book it in for custom mapping......


I know someone who got my old fans cos theirs were done.. :roll: 
Who's doing the mapping?
Steve


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## lotuselanplus2s

Hi Steve

sods law that the part that fails has nothing to do with the Turbo build. Hopefully the A/C issue is also minor....

With regards to the mapping, I'll send you a PM as they wanted to keep under the radar.


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## A8VCG

Has you Aircon worked since you had it back?

Interesting my car also needs mapped! Obviously something not 100% with the HPA map that we should know about!


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## lotuselanplus2s

Hi Craig

when I first got the car back, and for a few months, A/C was great (it needs it...) but then both fans died ( I now know) + the A/C died.

The fans have both been replaced but the A/C still isn't working - the A/C man is visiting the garage in the next couple of days & I'm hoping it's a minor problem - whilst the engine was out he gave it a good look over + replaced a few parts because it was easy + it's been properly regassed on refitting.

I think you know my views on the map - fine as a 'starter for 10' but definitely a candidate for improvement / refinement.


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## V6RUL

My AC is deleted, so I don't suffer with AC issues..
Steve


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## gogs

You V6 boys have been busy :-o

Nice write up Peter ;-)


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## V6RUL

Its called gathering momentum..
Kits are now becoming affordable.
Steve


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## lotuselanplus2s

Hi Gordon

Hope you're well!

What's with the 'you'?

You may have strayed to the dark side but you're still a V6'er really!


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## jamman

This does seem clouded in secrecy but do you mind me asking what is it exactly about the HPA map that you are not happy with or is it generally like a REVO BT Map ie slightly underwhelming.

I think a custom/live map is the only way forward with this type of conversion when you look at the grief Steve has had with his mapping.

Are any of you gents going on the track at ADI ?


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## A8VCG

jamman said:


> This does seem clouded in secrecy but do you mind me asking what is it exactly about the HPA map that you are not happy with or is it generally like a REVO BT Map ie slightly underwhelming.
> 
> I think a custom/live map is the only way forward with this type of conversion when you look at the grief Steve has had with his mapping.
> 
> Are any of you gents going on the track at ADI ?


I was gonna come down but have been dragged kicking and screaming for a game of golf at the Old Course :roll: - next time I will be up for track excursion and hopefully my mapping is all tight


----------



## V6RUL

I think its common practise that generic maps need the odd tweak once the engine has settled down.

I'm not planning on going on the track this time round, as some of us are using the opportunity for a Swiss Trip reunion.
That track is dangerous anyway.
Steve


----------



## jamman

Steve, I'd already discounted you out the equation from experience :roll:


----------



## lotuselanplus2s

I'd love to go on the track, & go to ADI for that matter, however I value my dangly bits too much - the other half would not be impressed!!

HPA make lovely hardware with well put together kits + really extensive build manuals (from memory it's 100+ pages all with photo's + text like a good Haynes manual). The map works but I don't think it's their strongest area.

I feel they have had to create generic maps - they work across various engine's / constantly changing turbo's / options as to whether it's got big or huge injectors / US rubbish fuel to UK super unleaded / no, manual oe electronic boost control etc etc On reflection it's a no brainer that, unless it's something like the DTM, which is a vanilla / big volume version, that a bespoke map is a good idea. Even with an OEM 1.8 engine a map tailored to your specific engine by someone such as Wak is always better (so reports tell me) than a bog standard off-the-shelf remap.

I would also add that I, like I expect other HPA customers, are wary & don't want to say 'not completely positive things' that may be mis-construed & blasted out of all proportion. Personally I am 99% happy with HPA & the kit however I think that out of everything the map, for my kit / set up, could be improved.

Hope that answers the question.
Cheers
Peter


----------



## A8VCG

lotuselanplus2s said:


> I'd love to go on the track, & go to ADI for that matter, however I value my dangly bits too much - the other half would not be impressed!!
> 
> HPA make lovely hardware with well put together kits + really extensive build manuals (from memory it's 100+ pages all with photo's + text like a good Haynes manual). The map works but I don't think it's their strongest area.
> 
> I feel they have had to create generic maps - they work across various engine's / constantly changing turbo's / options as to whether it's got big or huge injectors / US rubbish fuel to UK super unleaded / no, manual oe electronic boost control etc etc On reflection it's a no brainer that, unless it's something like the DTM, which is a vanilla / big volume version, that a bespoke map is a good idea. Even with an OEM 1.8 engine a map tailored to your specific engine by someone such as Wak is always better (so reports tell me) than a bog standard off-the-shelf remap.
> 
> I would also add that I, like I expect other HPA customers, are wary & don't want to say 'not completely positive things' that may be mis-construed & blasted out of all proportion. Personally I am 99% happy with HPA & the kit however I think that out of everything the map, for my kit / set up, could be improved.
> 
> Hope that answers the question.
> Cheers
> Peter


Nobody does negative like me Pete so I'll take good care of that - I've named it "calling it as it is!"


----------



## gogs

lotuselanplus2s said:


> Hi Gordon
> 
> Hope you're well!
> 
> What's with the 'you'?
> 
> You may have strayed to the dark side but you're still a V6'er really!


Hi Peter,

Doing ok ta, hope you are well also 

As you know I'm still on the dark side, on my 2nd dark side car now, it's keeping me busy;-)

I do miss that V6 grumble, brought it all back when Craig took me out for a spin the other week 

Maybe one day I'll return to the fold ;-)


----------



## jamman

lotuselanplus2s said:


> I'd love to go on the track, & go to ADI for that matter, however I value my dangly bits too much - the other half would not be impressed!!
> 
> HPA make lovely hardware with well put together kits + really extensive build manuals (from memory it's 100+ pages all with photo's + text like a good Haynes manual). The map works but I don't think it's their strongest area.
> 
> I feel they have had to create generic maps - they work across various engine's / constantly changing turbo's / options as to whether it's got big or huge injectors / US rubbish fuel to UK super unleaded / no, manual oe electronic boost control etc etc On reflection it's a no brainer that, unless it's something like the DTM, which is a vanilla / big volume version, that a bespoke map is a good idea. Even with an OEM 1.8 engine a map tailored to your specific engine by someone such as Wak is always better (so reports tell me) than a bog standard off-the-shelf remap.
> 
> I would also add that I, like I expect other HPA customers, are wary & don't want to say 'not completely positive things' that may be mis-construed & blasted out of all proportion. Personally I am 99% happy with HPA & the kit however I think that out of everything the map, for my kit / set up, could be improved.
> 
> Hope that answers the question.
> Cheers
> Peter


Wow that's a refreshing change, what a superb and honest answer good on you Peter.

Regards ADI I always start begging about 6 months in advance.


----------



## lotuselanplus2s

Cheers Jamman

I've found the forum incredibly helpful & informative during my ownership + the vast majority of the people on here have been really open & gracious etc. I've put my build thread up in case others are considering doing something similar but would really like to get an idea of what's involved - I've now got the car (well nearly) that I want hence there's a large part of me thinking I can't be arsed to write down my experiences as I don't personally get anything out of doing a thread (I hate the virtual world, apart from the forum, such as facebook etc - much keener on actually getting out their & doing things).

(That's the real reason it took me so long to write it up - it was only because Craig had got his finger out I thought I'd better + the other half was out that night + there was half a bottle of plonk needing finishing :lol: :lol: :lol: )

It's not fair to always take & not give back.

God I sound like a Vicar - better shoot myself now.


----------



## A8VCG

lotuselanplus2s said:


> Cheers Jamman
> 
> I've found the forum incredibly helpful & informative during my ownership + the vast majority of the people on here have been really open & gracious etc. I've put my build thread up in case others are considering doing something similar but would really like to get an idea of what's involved - I've now got the car (well nearly) that I want hence there's a large part of me thinking I can't be arsed to write down my experiences as I don't personally get anything out of doing a thread (I hate the virtual world, apart from the forum, such as facebook etc - much keener on actually getting out their & doing things).
> 
> (That's the real reason it took me so long to write it up - it was only because Craig had got his finger out I thought I'd better + the other half was out that night + there was half a bottle of plonk needing finishing :lol: :lol: :lol: )
> 
> It's not fair to always take & not give back.
> 
> God I sound like a Vicar - better shoot myself now.


Going back to the point about re-mapping. Both peter and I have invested a lot of cash and trust in HPA so it is disappointing we now need to invest more cash and time into custom mapping.

This becomes more disappointing given both Peter and I sent out ECU's back to HPA at our cost. It poses the question why waste the customers cash when the software, requires to be done twice? These are not isolated incidents and the software either does the job or it doesn't.


----------



## jamman

I look forward to seeing the outcome of the custom mapping 

Hope you have chosen wisely

If it makes the car what you want you will soon forget the extra dish involved.

I ditched REVO BT mapping In favour of WAK and it was prob the best thing I ever did.


----------



## lotuselanplus2s

Quick update - got it back again this afternoon after a short stay at the garage.

Both fans had died + the electrics & A/C were playing up because of it - nothing to do with the turbo, everything to do with the car being 10 years old.

They also have fitted the Apexi AVCR Electronic Boost Controller + the Race Cats (they were missed first time around). The race cats make no difference at this stage that I can feel (evidently the current restriction on power is not getting exhaust gases out). The car still sounds like it's NA - no farts, burps or flames.

The Apexi is in 'off / minimum' mode at the moment but it looks to be a rocket scientist's idea of a wet dream - far too much adjustment for a numptee like me. I will of course get the experts to set it up then leave it hidden in the glovebox covered up by old *** packets etc - as mentioned previously I do like stealth / OEM.
I'm not sure I'm keen on setting the Apexi up as advised '....run it up to max revs in 5th gear...' I think 150mph might be a bit scary in the Cotswolds :lol: :lol:

The five year olds love the acceleration, as does this big kid!


----------



## V6RUL

You cant have my spare fans as they've already gone to a good home..

Ive got a HKS EVC S boost controller which is quite good for my setup but i would prefer a controller that allows me to set boost by gear but i dont think there is anything on the market to do this.

Not sure if your Apexi is any more complicated than mine, but once its set..its set.

Im running my setup, in that if im getting on it i run in 4th as 22mph x 7200rpm = fast enough and i will use 5th and 6th for economy driving or mild boost application ie general overtaking.
Steve


----------



## lotuselanplus2s

Hi Steve

no problem about the fans, they've fitted new one's on mine - turns out one was dead & the other would only run at half speed!!!! Seriously knackered.....

I'm 99% sure my Apexi can be set for each gear. They had a good laugh doing all the electrical connections as Apexi only give wiring diagrams for Japanese cars that are from the Japanese market - VAG is definitely not on their list. I ended up buying the Bentley manual as the garage couldn't find a full wiring diagram for the ECU for the V6, only an R32 (it's an amazing manual!). It can also be set by roadspeed (in case you want to limit wheelspin at low revs presumably) but the V6 electrics mean I'd have had to get an 'emulator' fitted (whatever that is) for the Apexi to read the signal.

I chose the Apexi because MattB got one for his BT & his build thread made it sound like a good bit of kit - far far too good for what I might need but at least I could guarantee that there wouldn't be any problems getting the map how I (or the mapper) wanted.

FYI the UK price was approx £660 but from the US via eBay was approx £350 delivered!

The full ref is: Apexi AVCR AVC-R Boost Controller 420-A904 actuator valve type-r ebc blitz
The Apexi US website: http://www.apexi-usa.com/store/electron ... black.html
A good set up 'how to' is: http://www.nissansilvia.com/forums/inde ... pic=167038


----------



## V6RUL

Cheers, i will have a read through the info.
As my car is DSG, im not sure how a boost controller would read which gears are being used..manual gears are easier to read.
Steve


----------



## lotuselanplus2s

Quick update, the car was supposed to be custom mapped by now but I stupidly knackered my ankle hence it's now scheduled for mid-late November after which I'll get it on the RR.

Not avoiding posting figures, just not all consuming for me (the kids rarely ask 'hey dad, any idea what the max bhp or torque is..').

Happy Halloween all. Whooooooooooooooo


----------



## V6RUL

Ha ha..should have got a DSG as you don't need one of your legs..
I will try and deflect some of the heat of ya..
Have you sorted who is doing your mapping..or waiting on Craig's results first..
Steve


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## lotuselanplus2s

Hi Steve

sadly it's the right foot- still able to drive but walking's a bit painful. Serves me right - sad old git with a mid-life crisis (50 in July) buggers ankle playing rugby. Hardly a surprise....

I'm still going ahead with the Mapping as previously suggested - ££'s are OK + location precludes me going much further afield + I need it done sooner rather than later + they've got lots of experience + if my spec is capable of 500 then I'll be happy to have it de-tuned to 400+ for safety / drivability. We'll see how it goes......


----------



## V6RUL

lotuselanplus2s said:


> Hi Steve
> 
> sadly it's the right foot- still able to drive but walking's a bit painful. Serves me right - sad old git with a mid-life crisis (50 in July) buggers ankle playing rugby. Hardly a surprise....
> 
> I'm still going ahead with the Mapping as previously suggested - ££'s are OK + location precludes me going much further afield + I need it done sooner rather than later + they've got lots of experience + if my spec is capable of 500 then I'll be happy to have it de-tuned to 400+ for safety / drivability. We'll see how it goes......


Ok, I understand bud but I would consider waiting on Craig's results and decide from there.
Steve


----------



## lotuselanplus2s

If you've read the thread you'll know how much I hated the jarring blue silicone intake pipe that had been used - & was very diplomatically pointed out by others.... TBH I also disliked how big & in your face the filter was. It looked as if there was one of the sentries from Buckingham Palace's Bearskin's stuffed in there.

Anyway, in my quest to spend lots of ££££ but not look as if I'd done anything, we managed to butcher the old OEM airfilter box & refit most of the top. See photo's below of how it was pre & post.

I suppose if I was really anal I'd also remove the HPA logo from the pipe, I'll have a look at spinning it at the very least.

The other change eagle eyed'd viewer's might notice is the Apexi AVCR engine bay hardwear attached to the ARB - the actual control unit is in the glove box. It's got a long cable so you can set it when sat in the drivers seat but then shut it back in the glove box out of sight when sorted.

I don't know how normal it is but the Apexi solenoid on the ARB does click a lot (but quietly) at low revs - you can just hear it when pootling along, that & the fuel pump. However when you put your footdown the 'jumbo jet' sound of the turbo takes over so it's soon forgotten.

Without Cover









With cover refitted









Sorry for the doomsday merchants, still goes like **** off a shovel & works brilliantly for taking the kids to school / rugby etc etc

Peter


----------



## lotuselanplus2s

Happy New Year everyone

As mentioned previously I took the car to be properly bespoke mapped back in November. The HPA map must, because of economics, be more of a generic map that works OK for a wide variety of setup's but isn't finely tuned to a particular car / set up / driver. Mine has a number of variations to the bulk of HPA's turbo fitments (UK fuel, TT not Golf, rhd, big injectors + inline fuel pump, larger MAF, new spec turbo) that would alter the map (rhd + TT = different down pipes etc if you're interested).

The main requests I made were that the car was capable of being used as a daily driver, never on track, hence top end bhp is of no interest but low down seamless torque was. There was a slight 'lump' when you put your foot down at 1-1.5k & also wanted this addressed as much as possible. Also I felt the accelerator felt a bit too sensitive at low revs tootling around town & wanted this looked at.

I was informed the gearbox is fine up to 500 ftlb of torque & that the V6 can take up to 22 psi (i therefore asked for 18psi max for safety).

The map had to be custom coded & then 'adjusted' / 'bespoked' to the car - it was away for a week but was actually only needed for approx 3 days (but with a lot of man hours spent).

The end result to drive is immeasurably improved - i thought it was sorted prior but now it's an absolute delight. It feels just as if it's come out of Audi like this - there's no having to drive around problems, slipping the clutch, making excuses to yourself etc etc. It's best described as just having a wall of torque - you pootle around at 800-1k revs & then a space opens up, you put your foot down, & it just accelerates. From 1-1.5k it's like a normal'ish V6 but above that it fly's.

I was concerned about turbo lag but there's none to speak of - I've heard that big turbo'd smaller capacity engine's can need a second or two's planning before you can accelerate hard but in this case there's none really + the very low down torque means you can cruise along in a high gear rather than having to drop down a cog or two.

The initial graph from the mappers was based on data from the ECU i.e. modeled & as can be seen equates to 470 torque (3.8k revs) & 460 bhp (6.5k revs). When I had it on a rolling road a week or two later it could only manage 440 torque (3.3k revs) & 410 bhp (6k revs) - this could be down to many things but they did seem to be having problems keeping the general heat down hence the ECU would automatically cut back the engine. For safety I'll be getting the fuel air mix 'rich'ened' slightly in case it's EGT's getting high, however as you can see on the charts the EGT, AFR & boost all appear OK. I'm not worried about max power hence better to be safe than sorry.

The main point you'll see though is the 'un peaky' ness of the engine.

It still is very quiet at low rev's, similar to half-way between V6 OEM & a Milltek resonated, & appears OEM outside + no wheelspins etc when you accelerate - definitely a secret Q car. I'm very happy.

Modelled Graph:










Rolling Road Graph:


----------



## Matt B

V6RUL said:


> Cheers, i will have a read through the info.
> As my car is DSG, im not sure how a boost controller would read which gears are being used..manual gears are easier to read.
> Steve


Steve - it works out your gear by being connected to vehicle speed signal from ecu and also rpm - it then has a feature where you simply tell it which gear you are in and it stores that ratio. It takes about 5 mins to set up.


----------



## Mondo

lotuselanplus2s said:


> ...my quest to spend lots of ££££ but not look as if I'd done anything...


Very nice, and very nice figures. I like the way, in keeping with your quest, you've 'intentionally' lost one of the battery cover screws. :wink:

It does sound like a V6 & a turbo is a winning combo - nice torque low down, no waiting for the turbo to wake up before you move at low revs; slick. My hybrid - and the stock K04 before it, TBH - starts waking up at just under 2K then builds 'til about 2.7K before being truly ready to rumble. 3K or over and she dunnarf shift. :twisted: Not in your league, though, but still...

[smiley=thumbsup.gif]


----------



## L33JSA

Good to see some confirmed power figures from a V6 turbo'd TT - nice one!



lotuselanplus2s said:


> .......however as you can see on the charts the EGT, AFR


Couple of things however...

No sign of EGT temperatures on any of the graphs?

Also, the AFR looks like it's all over the show? Not very consistant at at. Also when you're at full peak boost on the dyno graph you're only registering 13.6AFR which is ridiculously lean for a turbo'd car....and what's more you stay at this level (13.6-13.4) right up until around 4750rpm before it then shoots down to a much better (richer) AFR of 12 and then continues to fall up until the end of the run. Also why the hell it is at 18.4AFR at 1500rpm? Has to be said....whoever mapped this needs shooting. I'd be taking it elsewhere for a second opinion I'm afraid mate.

Also, one graph shows a peak of 1.27bar (18.5psi) and the dyno one only shows a peak of 16.5psi, where you having trouble maintaining boost pressures?


----------



## lotuselanplus2s

Mondo said:


> I like the way, in keeping with your quest, you've 'intentionally' lost one of the battery cover screws. :wink:


I've also spent many careful hours getting a really nice patination of mud on the exterior + my boys have very dilligently completeted the rear interior in the same style over the last two months :lol: :lol: :lol:

The battery cover only has two fixing points now (it's covering up the water cooled intake manifold's radiator tank) hence there's nothing to bolt into - I should have popped it back in with a couple of nuts on the back to hold it in position but forgot to. I'll have a look around to see if I can find the missing screw now you've mentioned it!


----------



## lotuselanplus2s

L33JSA said:


> Good to see some confirmed power figures from a V6 turbo'd TT - nice one!
> 
> 
> 
> lotuselanplus2s said:
> 
> 
> 
> .......however as you can see on the charts the EGT, AFR
> 
> 
> 
> Couple of things however...
> 
> No sign of EGT temperatures on any of the graphs?
> 
> Also, the AFR looks like it's all over the show? Not very consistant at at. Also when you're at full peak boost on the dyno graph you're only registering 13.6AFR which is ridiculously lean for a turbo'd car....and what's more you stay at this level (13.6-13.4) right up until around 4750rpm before it then shoots down to a much better (richer) AFR of 12 and then continues to fall up until the end of the run. Also why the hell it is at 18.4AFR at 1500rpm? Has to be said....whoever mapped this needs shooting. I'd be taking it elsewhere for a second opinion I'm afraid mate.
> 
> Also, one graph shows a peak of 1.27bar (18.5psi) and the dyno one only shows a peak of 16.5psi, where you having trouble maintaining boost pressures?
Click to expand...

Hi Lee

thanks for the comments & observations - I ought to add a load of extra info as you're concerns about EGT / AFR & melting cars are obviously the same as mine, the garage & the mapper's.

1st off, the EGT's are not on the graphs (oops, sorry) but I have watched them like a hawk from day one via the Liquid pre & post mapping & the highest they have reached is 850C from memory. I know it's modelled rather than actual but there's hopefully a large enough margin for error. I would like to fit a true EGT sensor but as you know you then have the issue of a sensor pre-turbo that can break up & hence 'muller' the turbo. As I'm not after max power I'm keener on a wide safety margin.

All the tuning work was done with modelled data etc however lots of care was taken to ensure the AFR wasn't too lean, EGT's were watched & trying to ensure that boost was held as much as possible with no dangerous spike's. As you know with Matt's TT the Apexi boost limits can be set at 500 rpm increments all the way up however the HPA set up means that you will always get lots of boost low down but it tails off as the revs get towards the top end. Seriously the mapper spent a lot of time & effort making sure that the settings were safe for the car.

As I'm sure you know RR data varies from RR to RR as there are so many variables hence it's not a huge surprise that some of the numbers don't match up e.g. boost. The AFR for example at low revs isn't worth looking at as this is just an abnormality because on the way they accelerate from tickover on the RR, however the AFR levels generally, whilst still not excessively lean, are worse than the modelled data shows. This could be down to the RR or it could be down to the modelling - we're all a bit concerned hence for safety the Air Fuel mixture is going to be 'richened'.... (for any none techie's out there too lean = higher EGT's = possibility of melted engine).

In an ideal world the mapper would be sat next to the TT on the RR + an EGT sensor would be fitted but sadly that's not going to happen hence building in a large margin of error.

I know it's easy to think the mapper might not have got it 100% based on the graphs you can see but I'm 100% behind them based on the information they had & more importantly the way the car drives now.

I was optimistically hoping that the whole HPA turbo kit would be like an Airfix model - I'm realising that it's never quite as simple as that. If I wasn't inquisitive & was happy to live in blissful ignorance then right now I'd be very very happy, however I'm not hence I've got a few concerns / issues that still need to be placated.


----------



## jamman

Good way to look at things and a great attitude


----------



## L33JSA

lotuselanplus2s said:


> 1st off, the EGT's are not on the graphs (oops, sorry) but I have watched them like a hawk from day one via the Liquid pre & post mapping & the highest they have reached is 850C from memory. I know it's modelled rather than actual but there's hopefully a large enough margin for error.


I wouldn't trust a calculated EGT figure in the slightest. Especially after doing mapping and logging myself. I've found that the modelled EGT figure is calculated at at least 100 degrees lower than the actual figure. Bear in mind this is calculated using various sensor inputs and calculated using various algorithms based in the ECU. Those ECU algorithms are based upon the engine being a normally aspirated engine and not a turbo engine. Not only have you strapped a turbo to the engine, you've also changed the compression and the manifolds. The VE of the engine will have changed completely together with the thermodynamics.



lotuselanplus2s said:


> I would like to fit a true EGT sensor but as you know you then have the issue of a sensor pre-turbo that can break up & hence 'muller' the turbo. As I'm not after max power I'm keener on a wide safety margin.


You mean how all BAM wideband TT cars work. The EGT sensor is situated in the exhaust housing of the turbo. I have not heard of one TT having an EGT sensor 'break up' and muller the turbo. I'm not saying it hasn't happened or there isn't potential for it to happen but I'd say it's a very very rare occurrence. EGT probes are designed to withstand ridiculously high temperatures. I'd currently be more worried about one of your pistons melting and taking out the turbo in it's current state of tune. If you're that worried about the EGT probe breaking up then move it post turbo. Yes it won't be as accurate but as long as you factor in between 100-150degrees difference from the taken measurements then you won't be far wrong as to what the EGTs are pre-turbo.



lotuselanplus2s said:


> All the tuning work was done with modelled data etc however lots of care was taken to ensure the AFR wasn't too lean, EGT's were watched & trying to ensure that boost was held as much as possible with no dangerous spike's.


Whhoooaaa.......this is NOT the way to tune a car. Anyone that tells you any different wants shooting. Firstly, you said yourself that going off the modelled data your car was running at 460bhp/470lbft, yet when your car was put on the rollers it only actually ran 410bhp & 440lbft. Surely this is a big enough hint that modelled data is inaccurate and cannot be relied upon. I'm telling you now that your fueling strategy is dangerous and needs looking at again. Running 13.6AFR under full boost conditions and most of the way through the midrange is asking for trouble on a turbo'd engine. That is far far too lean. EGT's weren't watched at all, all you are doing is watching estimations which will not be correct.



lotuselanplus2s said:


> Seriously the mapper spent a lot of time & effort making sure that the settings were safe for the car.


That's my point.....they really aren't safe.

I showed your graph to a very experienced mapper friend of mine yesterday...his comments were..

"I get twitchy at about 12.3/12.4!!"
"Wow. I love to run lean spool and retarded timing in spool up areas but f*ck me, that's brave"
"Between 13 and 14 all the way on boost until the borewash bit at the end? Nice!"



lotuselanplus2s said:


> As I'm sure you know RR data varies from RR to RR as there are so many variables hence it's not a huge surprise that some of the numbers don't match up e.g. boost. The AFR for example at low revs isn't worth looking at as this is just an abnormality because on the way they accelerate from tickover on the RR, however the AFR levels generally, whilst still not excessively lean, are worse than the modelled data shows. This could be down to the RR or it could be down to the modelling - we're all a bit concerned hence for safety the Air Fuel mixture is going to be 'richened'.... (for any none techie's out there too lean = higher EGT's = possibility of melted engine).


RR results do indeed vary - but they should only vary on the power outputs. AFRs whether measured on the road or measured on the dyno won't change as they are being read directly from a probe situated in the exhaust of the vehicle (providing their probe is working). It doesn't matter if it doesn't manage to reach target boost pressure as this could be down to the loading of the dyno, it will still fuel the same for the load/boost that it does see.

What you are saying is like monitoring your pulse when running on a treadmill or running on the road and saying there will be a huge difference!

If the output AFRs aren't coming out anywhere near to the desired level set in the mapping then you could have a hardware fault - fuel pumps, injector, wiring to the pumps, lambda sensor. Do you have a copy of your map file to send me? I'd be interested to have a look at it.

I really can't stress this enough - your AFRs under full boost and most of the way through the mid range ARE excessively lean.

If they were that concerned about the AFRs why did they let you leave their premises with it being left like this i.e. a potential ticking timebomb? Who did you use to map the car?



lotuselanplus2s said:


> In an ideal world the mapper would be sat next to the TT on the RR + an EGT sensor would be fitted but sadly that's not going to happen hence building in a large margin of error.


You currently have NO margin for error I'm afraid.



lotuselanplus2s said:


> I know it's easy to think the mapper might not have got it 100% based on the graphs you can see but I'm 100% behind them based on the information they had & more importantly the way the car drives now.


With all due respect, just by driving the car you would have absolutely no idea if the car was running too lean or not, that is not a measurable way of saying the map is fine just because it 'drives nice'. Your mapper I'd say hasnt even got it 50% correct.

If I were you.....I'd take it elsewhere to have it looked at....sooner rather than later. Up until you do I'd stay off the loud pedal and certainly don't take it for anymore power runs anywhere.


----------



## L33JSA

Just showed it to another very well known respected VAG mapper....their comments included..

"looks like they failed to grasp me7"
"Stock fuel then theory lambda dump for egt, and injectors not scaled correctly"

In other words - the fueling is still setup for an NA car, it's hit a modelled EGT ECU protection limit and dumped a load of fuel (at 4750rpm) as you can see by the lambda falling. Also your larger injectors haven't been calibrated correctly.

When I asked them about trusting modelled EGT based on it being an ECU setup for NA they said...

"no u would have to rewrite egt theory maps which would take hours and hours"

So if you're not willing to take my word for it then at least listen to a couple of other people's who map day in day out.

Also, if you've got access to VAGCOM you could do with logging CF values - I bet it's knocking it socks off too.


----------



## lotuselanplus2s

Hi Lee

thanks for looking at this - to be honest your thoughts did echo many of my initial thoughts however I'm lucky to have quite a bit more background to this than just the bare bones that I've posted.

Obviously I don't want want a melted engine & watching EGT's has always been in my mind - I'd love to have a sensor pre-turbo, as they do on the 1.8's, but sadly mine's a V6 thus I'd have to have a bespoke set up made (hence my concern about the sensor etc breaking up). I am looking into getting a sensor fitted post-turbo as you suggest - it may not be perfect but it least it's better than 'oh that looks a bit hot' or 'mmm that seems OK' 

The issue with the HPA map was that the engine couldn't hold boost hence that's why I've got the Apexi & a large part of why I had to get the car mapped. The actual AFR on my map is very similar to the HPA map & they have 20 years experience turbo'ing the V6 & I haven't seen lots of stories of melted engine's. I'm not at all being complacent, just trying to give a bit of extra info. I understand that the mapper's AFR's were slightly lower than those taken by the RR (both actually measured) but then that is also one of the variable's I mentioned.

My understanding is that larger turbo'd engines, such as the V6, don't need to run as rich as smaller engine's with big turbo's - possibly you & your friends experiences are more with the 4 cylinder engine's?

As I said I'm not being complacent, because of the RR operator's comments about the downpipe etc looking pretty hot the mapper is going to richen the mixture a bit - as you know I'm not too concerned about max power hence maybe better to err on the safety side. Hopefully an EGT sensor will answer the question.

I can allay your worries about the ignition advance / pinking - it was checked & re-checked whilst being mapped & it's very safely within range.

I have got VAGCOM since the mapping but haven't had a chance to do check runs yet - I'm not expecting it to show any problems as the engine feels the same as it did when first mapped, however again better to be safe than sorry.

However after all of the above we've only being discussing the engine set up - conversely it could just as easily be the RR set up that is at fault. The RR is a proper 4 wheel drive 1000+ bhp set up hence they just stick the car on it & don't need to mess around pulling haldex fuses / getting people to sit on the bonnet etc etc. However they only have a huge fan to simulate air flow / cooling whilst driving + the bonnet has to be open whilst doing a run. There is always the possibility that this doesn't generate / pull through as much cooling air as you get on the road hence the system gets hot (or does it?) & the ECU pulls the power levels back.

And there in lies the problem - we don't have enough data to know where or what the issue is, or if there even is one. Ultimately all we know at the moment is that the RR figures are lower than the modelled figures & that the RR operator thought the set up looked hot.

Will keep you posted when I get more info.
Cheers
Peter


----------



## Matt B

Doesn't matter if it's a 4 pot or a v6 - the boost pressure and the charge density means you need more fuel to combat knock and egt.
If those afr figures came from your lambda or from a probe in your exhaust I would be very worried.
if anything on the v6 I would be more conservative as your engine is designed to be run as NA and you are boosting it. You should be running in the 12's under boost full stop


----------



## L33JSA

lotuselanplus2s said:


> I'd love to have a sensor pre-turbo, as they do on the 1.8's, but sadly mine's a V6 thus I'd have to have a bespoke set up made (hence my concern about the sensor etc breaking up).


Still unsure what your concerns are.....after all it's a bung welded on or a hole tapped in with a sensor screwed in place. Nothing more or nothing less than this. The only way it could be more likely to fail is if you used a low quality sensor setup. But that said they are all thermocouples so should all be able to cope with extreme temperatures.



lotuselanplus2s said:


> The issue with the HPA map was that the engine couldn't hold boost hence that's why I've got the Apexi & a large part of why I had to get the car mapped. The actual AFR on my map is very similar to the HPA map & they have 20 years experience turbo'ing the V6 & I haven't seen lots of stories of melted engine's.


So really all the mapper did was setup the Apexi then? If that's how HPA send out their ECU software with that kind of fueling strategy then that's absolutely disgraceful. I would have expected better....much better. But how sure are you that there isn't some kind of hardware issue? As Matt has said you need to be running low 12s, preferably nudging into the high 11s if you want this 'margin for error' you keep mentioning.



lotuselanplus2s said:


> I understand that the mapper's AFR's were slightly lower than those taken by the RR (both actually measured) but then that is also one of the variable's I mentioned.


So which ones do you believe? Also it doesnt need to be slightly lower....it needs to be alot lower. You can log your lambda with your VAGCOM because this is probably the most reliable reading and the one your car uses providing your probe is working as it should.



lotuselanplus2s said:


> My understanding is that larger turbo'd engines, such as the V6, don't need to run as rich as smaller engine's with big turbo's - possibly you & your friends experiences are more with the 4 cylinder engine's?


Your understanding I'm afraid is seriously flawed. Doesnt matter if its a 3,4,5,6,8,10 pot engine, flat 6, V6. V8,V10 or V12 turboed engines the same fueling principles remain the same. You might want to do a bit of reading up on it and educate yourself a little.Also the last mapper friend has successfully mapped a few R32 turboed cars so trust me....he knows what he's on about.



lotuselanplus2s said:


> There is always the possibility that this doesn't generate / pull through as much cooling air as you get on the road hence the system gets hot (or does it?) & the ECU pulls the power levels back.


Potentially it will run slightly hotter yes, but the way your ECU is at the moment it's only guessing at EGTs so it wouldn't actually know it's getting hotter. You may get increased knock as a consequence and it will pull timing which will reduce power and if it gets really bad it will dump fuel so it would run richer rather than leaner.



lotuselanplus2s said:


> And there in lies the problem - we don't have enough data to know where or what the issue is, or if there even is one.


There is an issue - it's not fueling properly....what more data do you want to prove it other than the graphed AFR line that resembles a roller coaster! The rolling road people have picked up on it, I've picked up on it, other mappers I've shown it too have picked up on it (without me prompting either).

Out of interest, why didn't the mapper (you haven't mentioned who they are yet) give you a power figure from their rollers? I take it they didnt have one? What did they use to log fueling and timing? I'll be honest......those graphs you've posted look alot like ones from WAK? :wink:


----------



## lotuselanplus2s

Hi Lee & Matt

I'm getting a lot of negative Karma over here - not sure what your problems are. Santa not been that good this year?

I'm only putting things up on this thread to help other V6 owners possibly considering going down the HPA route, not to wave my willy (it's 4' long already FYI :lol: :lol: )

I appreciate you may have a lot more experience with the V6 engine than HPA hence comments about the AFR but I'm not really sure what you're suggesting that I'm not already doing - richening the mixture + getting an EGT probe fitted.

I'm sure you are lucky to have a full RR set up Lee but the garage who fitted my turbo (& who run the RR) are very clear on their strengths & weakness's hence were not confident of doing the mapping. If it could have all been done in house that would have been good but I don't live in Canada, rather the Cotswold's, hence needs must.

I'm no expert in this field but I'm learning - any comments are obviously gratefully recieved.


----------



## L33JSA

lotuselanplus2s said:


> I'm getting a lot of negative Karma over here - not sure what your problems are. Santa not been that good this year?


Negative karma? Why would I want to wish negative karma on you? I'm doing completely the opposite by trying to help you and stop anything negative happening to your car that you've just thrown a good few grand on. Neither do I have any problems.....unless you class me being concerned that your car is a ticking time bomb as being a problem? I believe it is you that has a problem....or rather your car anyway.



lotuselanplus2s said:


> I'm only putting things up on this thread to help other V6 owners possibly considering going down the HPA route


I'm also making people aware, and potentially other V6 owners that maybe looking to purchase this kit as to the poor quality of the map you've been provided with from HPA and tweaked (I presume) by your chosen mapper.



lotuselanplus2s said:


> any comments are obviously gratefully recieved.


Are they really.....then why leave sarcastic comments such as...

"I appreciate you may have a lot more experience with the V6 engine than HPA hence comments about the AFR...."
"I'm sure you are lucky to have a full RR set up Lee"...

Oh and for the record.....if HPA having 20 years experience with the V6 engine means they are supposed to be experts.....then why did this happen...



lotuselanplus2s said:


> The issue with the HPA map was that the engine couldn't hold boost


 :roll:


----------



## DazWaite

Hi dude, let me recommend a decent mapper... if not one of the best the uk has to offer

Nick Gower of R-Tech

You'll find that what lee and matt have said will be deemed very plausible and correct

Why spend good money on your project and not get the best advice from people that do this on a daily basis..

Daz


----------



## L33JSA

DazWaite said:


> Nick Gower of R-Tech


He won't entertain it unfortunately since the software on Golf R32 cars (that he does map) is quite significantly different to Audi TT 3.2 V6s believe it or not. So much so it would take him too long to create the mappacks and do the work to make it financially attractive.

Oh and for the record.....he's already had something to say about this particular dyno graph (see below) :wink:


----------



## L33JSA

Peter

Latest bit of 'negative karma' for you....

I'd suggest you look at this thread....

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.p ... view/page1

Particularly from this post onwards...

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.p ... st86314352

Oh look a bunch of other people, even in a completely different country that are completely unrelated to me or your car concerned about the AFR charactistics of the HPA map. Look familiar?

Seems like you need to be contacting HPA about it.



VortexUser said:


> ....ECU back in the mail to HPA for the tweaks...


----------



## Wak

Disappointed the undertones of this thread seem to be very cutting from a point of little knowledge or understanding with none of the background.
I can understand this a little from the posts of "Lotus" being a little ambiguous with information and the content being alarming but the way this thread has developed is why its best to stay out and let the children play but I have to step in now.

A lot of discussion took place regarding the build and tuning with details being sought from HPA which were sketchy like the injector size/brand, maf tube and maf element, the boost profile and including the A/F targets along with reviewing their claims on their performance figures vs the boost and ron of fuel they have available to them.

A single post turbo Lambda setup was recommended by us due to the current setup not being ideal but due to time, money and motivation this was discounted and a number of elements had to be guessed and calibrated during mapping.

Ultimately a view on all the information was taken and the car has been tuned with having to calibrate for unusual maf tube and sensor combination, injector parameters worked on through logging, targets of boost and A/F from HPA and timing reviewed to ensure all is safe.

Issues around modelled values and the efforts to try an recalibrate a N/A ECU with a turbo are understood and objectively viewed.
The ambiguity in the proposed numbers vs the unusual MAF combination used to try and get estimated figures were also understood by my developer and explained to "lotus" that the RR run was a first cut at getting a view on what the kit was putting out as it didnt really hold the boost pressures that they have on their site.

In general larger capacity engines do not generate the same EGT levels that a smaller engine can with the same levels of boost and do have some more overhead than our 1.8T-pots and the custom manifold/DP helps reduce this further and without an EGT probe an objective view has to be taken. The car is not "knocking is socks off" it has a healthy advance and next to 0 cf's because that's one of the critical areas reviewed.
Its running a boost level that is not high for a 3.2 to have a concern over the a/f strategy, mostly because it wont deliver the boost levels that HPA Claim that should be held but it does have a strategy that is acceptable for this platform in our opinion.

And finally and most crucially, The RR run is pretty unstable and not how it behaves on the road and hence their are some questions over the data and the rolling road setup, the car runs starting at 13.0 (NOT MORE) a/f on the road and progressively richens to 11 up top.
The RR clearly is showing higher A/F across the rev range than it logged with me, its rising FFS! and hence either its loading is not correct but I'm 99% certain, if you had the decency to show some humility and objectivity after getting some background from me first, you may correctly surmise that the Lambda sniffer they used to measured is FECKED and needs replacing!

Typical RR crap, belligerent people who cant believe their kit could be at fault, yes most failing lambdas will read a leaner figure! and the sucky attitude on this thread from how many people that have been drawn in.
Lee you could have asked me privately for some background because you went and asked, how many "experienced" tuners, and made a point not to ask me? not one of them have any objectivity to consider the RR sniffer could be at fault, good choices!

Waste of my life having to look at this thread and point out the issue!

(Of course the car could have developed an issue that's making it run leaner , it didnt leave me like that and you have done an excellent job of highlighting it, but it was already mentioned to "Lotus" when he showed me the RR. further to this "Lotus" is coming back to me for review and has been offered this since he had this RR done so am waiting on him being available to visit me.)


----------



## L33JSA

Dear me Wak, that's quite a post!! Good to hear from you anyway. Allow me to pick up on a couple of points you've raised.



Wak said:


> ....but the way this thread has developed is why its best to stay out and let the children play but I have to step in now.


I'm glad you see it as children playing.....however I don't. I see it as someone's pride and joy that they've just spent a fortune on and trusted with various people to end up with a less than perfect result that could end in tragedy. But that said if I come across your dummy I'll be sure to hand it you back again. [smiley=baby.gif]



Wak said:


> A single post turbo Lambda setup was recommended by us due to the current setup not being ideal but due to time, money and motivation this was discounted and a number of elements had to be guessed and calibrated during mapping.


Surely the V6s already run a lambda, if not 2 as standard - pre and post cat? .....not sure I agree with the 'guessing' bit but still. I wouldn't like to pluck a AFR or EGT figure out the air when it comes to mapping.



Wak said:


> ....as it didnt really hold the boost pressures that they have on their site.


I see they now supply an electronic boost controller with their kit so they've obviously accepted this is an issue.



Wak said:


> In general larger capacity engines do not generate the same EGT levels that a smaller engine can with the same levels of boost and do have some more overhead than our 1.8T-pots and the custom manifold/DP helps reduce this further and without an EGT probe an objective view has to be taken.


Agreed to a point, unless you run it lean enough or indeed too rich - it doesnt matter how big your engine is you are still going to generate EGTs that aren't acceptable. I recall Steve (V6RUL) having EGT issues too on his setup.



Wak said:


> And finally and most crucially, The RR run is pretty unstable and not how it behaves on the road and hence their are some questions over the data and the rolling road setup, the car runs starting at 13.0 (NOT MORE) a/f on the road and progressively richens to 11 up top.
> The RR clearly is showing higher A/F across the rev range than it logged with me, its rising FFS! and hence either its loading is not correct but I'm 99% certain, if you had the decency to show some humility and objectivity after getting some background from me first, you may correctly surmise that the Lambda sniffer they used to measured is FECKED and needs replacing!
> 
> Typical RR crap, belligerent people who cant believe their kit could be at fault, yes most failing lambdas will read a leaner figure! and the sucky attitude on this thread from how many people that have been drawn in.


You must have missed what I said in one of my other posts then.....here it is again just to be crystal clear...



L33JSA said:


> AFRs whether measured on the road or measured on the dyno won't change as they are being read directly from a probe situated in the exhaust of the vehicle *(providing their probe is working)*.


Let's see the AFR results you logged then out of interest (providing you haven't just tweaked them)? :wink: Also the AFR target would be handy to see to if you don't mind divuldging this too? Did you use an external probe or did you rely on the one fitted to the car? Did this get renewed at the same time as the kit got fitted?

Also have you taken the time to read the vortex thread that I posted up out of interest? Isnt it funny that the AFR graph follows exactly the same trend and starts to richen up at virtually exactly the same point as "lotus'" does on his RR run? Strange coincidence that isn't it considering it's on a completely different car, completely different RR and in a completely different country but with the same HPA kit on it! Perhaps both rolling roads used the same dicky lambda.



Wak said:


> Lee you could have asked me privately for some background because you went and asked, how many "experienced" tuners, and made a point not to ask me?


Why would I have asked you? I only guessed at it being you which was actually a long shot considering I've never heard of you mapping a V6 turbo before, sorry your developer I mean. "lotus" ignored my comment and didn't confirm it was you, infact he didn't seem to want to say who it was. I infact had asked a couple of peoples opinion's before guessing it could have been you. I went ahead and asked people who I know have mapped V6 turbos as well as a variety of other vehicles as I actually thought I might have been missing something. I'll be honest, it was only a loose guess at it being you because I wouldn't have thought you'd have let the car go in that state. Especially since the last car that did leave you with fuelling issues (without EGT or wideband protection) then went on to melt.



Wak said:


> (Of course the car could have developed an issue that's making it run leaner , it didnt leave me like that and you have done an excellent job of highlighting it, but it was already mentioned to "Lotus" when he showed me the RR. further to this "Lotus" is coming back to me for review and has been offered this since he had this RR done so am waiting on him being available to visit me.)


Excellent.....that's good news. Look forward to the next positive karma update then.At the end of the day I only have "lotus'" best interests at heart as I'm sure you do. I'm looking forward to a successful end result after this has been resolved.



Wak said:


> Waste of my life having to look at this thread and point out the issue!


Oh and don't be like that - it's been a while since we had a good technical debate!


----------



## Wak

I you want to make a public statement about a car going on to melt that ive not heard of then pm me the details so I can look into it.


----------



## L33JSA

I don't believe I do need to PM you details as the 'public' are already aware of it as you are also. I believe you posted on his thread when his engine sadly passed away.


----------



## neil_audiTT

As I'm closely following the details of this thread for possible future developments.

What are MRC like for mapping? Is this a ECU issue as it's not really capable of handling a boosted engine like HPA say it can? Worth going standalone?...

Sent from my Nokia 3310 using Tapatalk


----------



## L33JSA

neil_audiTT said:


> Is this a ECU issue as it's not really capable of handling a boosted engine like HPA say it can? Worth going standalone?...


The ME7.1 ECU is more than capable of running a boosted engine. Plenty of other turbo'd cars use it. It just needs mapping correctly in order to run the engine properly now it's been turbo'd.

Standalone is a whole different ballgame and would cost considerably more to install and map. Not that you should discount it if you can afford to go down that route.

Having said that....why bother re-inventing the wheel - it's got an ECU on the car that's more than capable of doing the job properly in the hands of the right people. There are lots of turbo'd 3.2V6 engines out there running the standard ECU.


----------



## lotuselanplus2s

L33JSA said:


> lotuselanplus2s said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm getting a lot of negative Karma over here - not sure what your problems are. Santa not been that good this year?
> 
> 
> 
> Negative karma? Why would I want to wish negative karma on you? I'm doing completely the opposite by trying to help you and stop anything negative happening to your car that you've just thrown a good few grand on. Neither do I have any problems.....unless you class me being concerned that your car is a ticking time bomb as being a problem? I believe it is you that has a problem....or rather your car anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> lotuselanplus2s said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm only putting things up on this thread to help other V6 owners possibly considering going down the HPA route
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm also making people aware, and potentially other V6 owners that maybe looking to purchase this kit as to the poor quality of the map you've been provided with from HPA and tweaked (I presume) by your chosen mapper.
> 
> 
> 
> lotuselanplus2s said:
> 
> 
> 
> any comments are obviously gratefully recieved.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are they really.....then why leave sarcastic comments such as...
> 
> "I appreciate you may have a lot more experience with the V6 engine than HPA hence comments about the AFR...."
> "I'm sure you are lucky to have a full RR set up Lee"...
> 
> Oh and for the record.....if HPA having 20 years experience with the V6 engine means they are supposed to be experts.....then why did this happen...
> 
> 
> 
> lotuselanplus2s said:
> 
> 
> 
> The issue with the HPA map was that the engine couldn't hold boost
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> :roll:
Click to expand...

Hi Lee

apologies for the delay in replying, been a bit busy with work & family stuff.

Apologies, I really wasn't meaning to be sacrcastic (though re-reading my post i can completely see you might see it that way). I was in holiday mood.

My comment about Karma was just that, for something (turboing a V6) that is just for fun & enjoyment, you seemed quite confrontational.

I'd presumed from your comments about mapping & RR's that, as you do that type of stuff yourself, that you used a RR as well. Also my comment about V6's & experience versus HPA was to do with the mapping - they're excellent at the hardware side but don't do mapping (as you had also concluded).

cheers
Peter


----------



## lotuselanplus2s

L33JSA said:


> Peter
> 
> Latest bit of 'negative karma' for you....
> 
> I'd suggest you look at this thread....
> 
> http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.p ... view/page1
> 
> Particularly from this post onwards...
> 
> http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.p ... st86314352
> 
> Oh look a bunch of other people, even in a completely different country that are completely unrelated to me or your car concerned about the AFR charactistics of the HPA map. Look familiar?
> 
> Seems like you need to be contacting HPA about it.
> 
> 
> 
> VortexUser said:
> 
> 
> 
> ....ECU back in the mail to HPA for the tweaks...
Click to expand...

Hi Lee

unfortunately this is the DTM kit hence completely different set up. The Turbo is the same one but that's about it.

It runs much higher compression, higher air intake temperatures (no water cooled inlet), a quarter of the boost, much smaller injectors, much smaller MAF, different downpipe, OEM Cats, OEM exhaust & much less fuel delivery. I'm afraid comparing the map on this to mine might be interesting but not of much value & definitely not something you should base decisions on.

As you've noted the HPA kits do all now include a electronic boost controller hence the map they are shipped with uses it. Mine didn't have the EBC but needed one hence I needed a new map anyway. HPA wouldn't be able to help as it was not their EBC + are thousands of miles away.


----------



## lotuselanplus2s

Hi anybody who's remotely interested in this.

just as a postscript to all the discussions about mapping you've probably realised that there aren't many people / companies who've got experience of Turbo'd V6 TT's. HPA mainly sell to R32 owners & the majority seem to be in the US / Canada, though there are some in the UK - check out VW Vortex forum for various build threads etc (be warned, they don't seem to use sentence's or grammer :lol: :lol: )
As Lee's pointed out, the R32 Golf's are similar but not the same from a mapping point of view (thank you Lee, I didn't know that).

Which means that, after lots of research, I think that the only people with direct experience of coding & mapping HPA 'full fat' Turbo'd V6 TT's are HPA (the shipped generic map), Unitronic (US based & very well regarded - search on VW Vortex etc) & Wak (UK). I'd love to know if there are more- please post your knowledge.

FYI my experience with working with Wak, as with the hundreds (?) of other TT owners here on the forum, is he is very quiet, considered & measured in all that he says & does. He is methodical, analytical & careful in the way that he works + he listens to what you're trying to achieve & sticks to that. But he's also a top bloke as well!

FYI mk2 the price for coding + mapping the engine was very reasonable as well!

FYI mk3 had to drive to a meeting today 300 mile round trip - absolutely wonderful drive, creamy delivery from 0mph to silly mph. I do wish I drove on roads with unlimited speed limits.


----------



## neil_audiTT

I'm gonna give MRC a tinkle and see what they can muster up.

Sent from my Nokia 3310 using Tapatalk


----------



## jamman

lotuselanplus2s said:


> absolutely wonderful drive,


And that is what it's all about, enjoy 8)

PS Never start a sentence with "and"


----------



## L33JSA

lotuselanplus2s said:


> .....experience versus HPA was to do with the mapping - they're excellent at the hardware side but don't do mapping (as you had also concluded)


Well.....they must do mapping otherwise you wouldn't have needed to send your ECU off to them in the first place?



lotuselanplus2s said:


> I'm afraid comparing the map on this to mine might be interesting but not of much value & definitely not something you should base decisions on


You missed my point I think. My point being that both your car and the car on vwvortex have got HPA maps on them. It doesnt matter what kit you are running, what turbo you've got fitted, what compression, what boost etc etc they should both run the same fuel strategy - in basic terms - NOT lean.



lotuselanplus2s said:


> Mine didn't have the EBC but needed one hence I needed a new map anyway.


Strictly speaking if the map was setup correctly for the boost the kit was designed to run then just by you fitting a boost controller shouldn't mean you needed a new map. All you would have needed would be to have the Apexi setup to make sure that it would control the boost effectively and within the limits of the kit.....unless of course you were planning on running more boost than the HPA map was designed to handle, in which case you would need to have the map looked at.



lotuselanplus2s said:


> Wak (UK)


I wasn't aware he'd mapped other UK based V6 Turbo'd TTs. What other ones has Wak (sorry his developer) done?



jamman said:


> lotuselanplus2s said:
> 
> 
> 
> absolutely wonderful drive,
> 
> 
> 
> And that is what it's all about, enjoy 8)
> 
> PS Never start a sentence with "and"
Click to expand...

..and (oops!) I agree.....providing that every time you take your car out for one of these wonderful drives you aren't potentially doing engine damage every time you plant your right foot into the carpet :wink:


----------



## kiz

neil_audiTT said:


> I'm gonna give MRC a tinkle and see what they can muster up.
> 
> Sent from my Nokia 3310 using Tapatalk


MRC are great mappers they did my B5 S4 and they have most S/RS owners going to them for maps, although their maps do cost more than the average mappers nowadays


----------



## Bikerz

kiz said:


> neil_audiTT said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm gonna give MRC a tinkle and see what they can muster up.
> 
> Sent from my Nokia 3310 using Tapatalk
> 
> 
> 
> MRC are great mappers they did my B5 S4 and they have most S/RS owners going to them for maps, although their maps do cost more than the average mappers nowadays
Click to expand...

They also dont like the older style 1.8T lumps etc.... they are more more at home with newer TFSI lumps


----------



## neil_audiTT

I think they're just aiming towards higher spec motors. Instead of flashing a 225 TT. A lot of the mk2 stuff has been to them for a map and DSG fettle.

Sent from my Nokia 3310 using Tapatalk


----------



## Bikerz

Agree. However Doug was implying that generally they do prefer TFSI and the older larger lumps


----------



## lotuselanplus2s

L33JSA said:


> lotuselanplus2s said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wak (UK)
> 
> 
> 
> I wasn't aware he'd mapped other UK based V6 Turbo'd TTs.
Click to expand...

Sorry if it wasn't clear, in the UK, to the best of my knowledge, there are only two HPA EFR7670 turbo'd V6 TT's with decompression plate / watercooled intake etc. Mine + Craig / A8VCG has one but I don't believe it's been sorted yet + it has the standard injectors / no inline fuel pump.

So that leaves just mine & Wak was responsible for coding / customised mapping it.

On your other point HPA don't actually do the coding / mapping themselves, it's bought in, the same way as they do with the turbo's bought in from Borg Warner.


----------



## L33JSA

lotuselanplus2s said:


> So that leaves just mine & Wak was responsible for coding / customised mapping it.


Ah that clears it up then. You just made it sound like he had direct experience of mapping V6 Turbo TTs. Respect to him (sorry his developer) for giving it a go though!!



lotuselanplus2s said:


> On your other point HPA don't actually do the coding / mapping themselves, it's bought in, the same way as they do with the turbo's bought in from Borg Warner.


Interesting.....any idea who they use as they come across in their advertising like it's all their own software, especially since they have dealers on their behalf all round the world selling 'their software'.


----------



## Mondo

L33JSA said:


> ... Wak (sorry his developer)...


That's twice you've said that. Do you have something to say? You're Northern, and Northerers have a reputation for saying what they think. So please, to avoid confusion on the part of this foreigner, what is it you're alluding to?


----------



## L33JSA

Mondo said:


> L33JSA said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... Wak (sorry his developer)...
> 
> 
> 
> That's twice you've said that. Do you have something to say? You're Northern, and Northerers have a reputation for saying what they think. So please, to avoid confusion on the part of this foreigner, what is it you're alluding to?
Click to expand...

Well done.....you're obviously reading my posts thoroughly Mr Southern Fairy! :wink:

However I'm alluding to nothing that hasnt already been said.



Wak said:


> ...my developer...


----------



## Bikerz

Mondo said:


> L33JSA said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... Wak (sorry his developer)...
> 
> 
> 
> That's twice you've said that. Do you have something to say? You're Northern, and Northerers have a reputation for saying what they think. So please, to avoid confusion on the part of this foreigner, what is it you're alluding to?
Click to expand...

WAK doesnt map! He logs and send the logs to a guy abroad, he writes the map and emails it back, Wak then flashes it back on.

WAK doesnt do ANY mapping,(Didnt on my very expensive custom map anyway)

There we are I said it :roll: 
Im southerner :wink:


----------



## Wak

Bikerz said:


> Mondo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> L33JSA said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... Wak (sorry his developer)...
> 
> 
> 
> That's twice you've said that. Do you have something to say? You're Northern, and Northerers have a reputation for saying what they think. So please, to avoid confusion on the part of this foreigner, what is it you're alluding to?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> WAK doesnt map! He logs and send the logs to a guy abroad, he writes the map and emails it back, Wak then flashes it back on.
> 
> WAK doesnt do ANY mapping,(Didnt on my very expensive custom map anyway)
> 
> There we are I said it :roll:
> Im southerner :wink:
Click to expand...

Actually that's not true. I do do my own mapping and my developer is backup for areas I am not comfortable. 
He has done many bt 3.2s as he doesn't just do UK, and I've been involved with the mapping on a uk development car which was like this Hpa twin banks to single turbo but in addition twin lambda to single post turbo.


----------



## Mondo

Bikerz said:


> ...Im southerner :wink:


Not as southern as me. :wink:

Now, where did I leave my shandy? :?



PS: Funny, where I'm from, being Southern is being tough, whereas being from the North (but not 'Northern'; no such term) is being soft. Something to do with the planet being upside down or summat. [smiley=book2.gif]


----------



## L33JSA

Wak said:


> Actually that's not true. I do do my own mapping and my developer is backup for areas I am not comfortable.


Out of interest which ones do you do yourself? As the 2 cars that I've been involved with that you have mapped your developer did both of them?



Wak said:


> .....and I've been involved with the mapping on a uk development car which was like this Hpa twin banks to single turbo but in addition twin lambda to single post turbo.


Really....which car is this? Genuinely interested. Audi TT I take it?


----------



## Bikerz

Mondo said:


> Bikerz said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...Im southerner :wink:
> 
> 
> 
> Not as southern as me. :wink:
> 
> Now, where did I leave my shandy? :?
> 
> 
> 
> PS: Funny, where I'm from, being Southern is being tough, whereas being from the North (but not 'Northern'; no such term) is being soft. Something to do with the planet being upside down or summat. [smiley=book2.gif]
Click to expand...

I was really soft :wink: I was Born in Jersey Channel Island, bought up in Gloucestershire and now Ive flown the nest to Warwick.


----------



## lotuselanplus2s

Erm Excuse me but I think this threads gone a bit off topic :lol:

I've moved from Cambridge to Leeds to London to Oxfordshire- does this mean I'm semi-rigid?


----------



## L33JSA

lotuselanplus2s said:


> I've moved from Cambridge to Leeds to London to Oxfordshire- does this mean I'm semi-rigid?


No....it means your a gypsy! :lol:


----------



## V6RUL

The demand for TT V6 Turbo software is very new compared to R32 Turbo Sofware and in some respects is still in development and will vary from car to car depending on mod specifics.
You can't cut and paste R32 files onto /into TT files as they wont work.
There are a few companies in the world that are leading the way in TT V6 software and they are not UK based.
My software is from Unitronic and I had to ship my ECU across the pond to get it flashed.

HPA software is old and originated from HGP in Germany and could do with bringing into the 21st century.
Steve


----------



## [email protected]

V6RUL said:


> HPA software is old and originated from HGP in Germany and could do with bringing into the 21st century.
> Steve


Depends on what turbo kit you are running. Our newer EFR turbo kits are developed and build completely in-house (both hardware and software). HGP is no longer a collaborator on our VR6 turbo builds (not since the Garrett FT days).

Interesting read. Our tunes are well known for being a little "safe" in comparison to many custom maps out there. The question is, what is being compromised (if anything) safety/emissions wise with these custom tunes to achieve the results.


----------



## V6RUL

[email protected] said:


> V6RUL said:
> 
> 
> 
> HPA software is old and originated from HGP in Germany and could do with bringing into the 21st century.
> Steve
> 
> 
> 
> Depends on what turbo kit you are running. Our newer EFR turbo kits are developed and build completely in-house (both hardware and software). HGP is no longer a collaborator on our VR6 turbo builds (not since the Garrett FT days).
> 
> Interesting read. Our tunes are well known for being a little "safe" in comparison to many custom maps out there. The question is, what is being compromised (if anything) safety/emissions wise with these custom tunes to achieve the results.
Click to expand...

If I am wrong about HGP maps then I apologise unreservedly and await your response to the PM sent to you by someone on this forum who has purchased an EFR kit off you last year..

With regards to your safe maps, it appears that UM take some credit on Vortex for putting their own on at HPA customers requests..why is this? If I am wrong I apologise once again..
Steve


----------



## L33JSA

Also......if the dyno lambda results are to be believed (or at least the overall lean trend) from this HPA V6 Turbo TT.....what is your take on the fueling strategy on your maps? Would you say you need to revisit it for some additional tweaks?



[email protected] said:


> Our tunes are well known for being a little "safe" in comparison to many custom maps out there


Safe in what respect? Safe for the engine or safe for the environment?



[email protected] said:


> The question is, what is being compromised (if anything) safety/emissions wise with these custom tunes to achieve the results.


I don't see that anything is being compromised at all if it's done properly. No reason why if the injectors are setup correctly together with everything else that they shouldnt have any problem passing any kind of emissions tests. Our cars over here in the UK as I'm sure you're aware have to pass emissions tests on a yearly basis anyway.


----------



## fleckers

good write up mate


----------



## lotuselanplus2s

My wife had to use the car for a day a few weeks back & it was the first time since the turbo install i.e. probably 18 months ago. I haven't really discussed it either hence she thinks it's pretty much the same as it was 18 months ago - I was very interested to get her comments as she's a good driver & has an innate feel for cars but without any technical mechanical understanding (her father was / is a petrol head who goes into minute detailed explanations of everything hence since age 1 she's always switched off when he start's lecturing).

Her comments were:
'the gears feel too close together, you don't get to really use the engine'
trans. it's accelerating so fast you have to change the OEM gears very quickly as it reaches 70mph so soon. However because it does it in such an unruffled way, just a push in your back, she didn't realise.

' I'm worried, it doesn't sound quite right, are the garage sure it's OK?'
trans. that'll be the induction noise + rather large turbo

No comments about drivability at walking speed (it's 400+ bhp), heavy clutch (it's uprated), noisy rattle (solid flywheel), harsh ride (Bilstein kit).

She did add that 'it's a lot larger inside than I remember' & 'it's a bit more tiring to drive than the XC90 as you have to concentrate a bit more'

So there you have it. Appreciably more power than a Ferrari 360 & only a bit down on the F40 (both are lighter though....) yet drivable as a shopping car by someone who just thinks it's as Audi made it.

126k on the clock now & every drive a hoot!


----------



## V6RUL

Nice write up..

I've overcome some points ure missus raised but she won't drive mine..yet..but I've been suffering with a shoulder issue and she may be forced to take the primary cockpit seat if she wants to go to some shows or trips out in Janice..
She drives an auto already, incl my BM 535d Stage 2 auto so there is less of a transition but she is scared there is too much power and it's going to throw her into a wall at the first opportunity but I've tried to convince her that you only go as fast as the 'go' pedal is pushed.

My gearing is about 15% longer since I've changed my DSG out for a Passat box.
KW V3s offer a softer ride when required.
Turbo systems quieten the soundtrack so I've decatted and run a 3" system.
Steve


----------



## jaybyme

I had a good look round TVS's VR6 Golf as I was dropping my car off in Holland last week.
Lovely car,just won a competition in Holland at the weekend.


----------



## jamman

How near and tidy is that install.... wow


----------



## richyboy

Must have cost a fortune but worth it looking at the neatness


----------



## V6RUL

I've been to TVS and there work is very good.
Steve


----------



## jaybyme

Yeah,very professional setup,they know a thing or two about DSG's,so my cars in good hands.
Long and complicated process though getting the software etc exactly right for the car.


----------



## V6RUL

I'm considering contacting Ronald to have a look at a new map for my DSG as HPA have given me there best file but it's not good enough..but it's a bit far to go and I would need it doing whilst I wait, but may take the opportunity to take the Mrs on a short break away and kill two birds with one stone..but not literally.
Steve


----------



## jaybyme

what box you using,they have the DQ500 in theirs.
Could be that they have software already to be loaded up for different boxes.
I know they are bringing out a cheap flashing tool soon


----------



## V6RUL

jaybyme said:


> what box you using,they have the DQ500 in theirs.
> Could be that they have software already to be loaded up for different boxes.
> I know they are bringing out a cheap flashing tool soon


I run a mk1 V6 turbo DSG.
DSG is a DQ350.
Mechatronic is from a MK2 S-Tronic model V6.

I think you could say I have hybrid setup.
Steve


----------



## jaybyme

Is there no tuner in the UK offering their software ?


----------



## V6RUL

jaybyme said:


> Is there no tuner in the UK offering their software ?


No tuning house in the UK has tried to calibrate this hybrid setup before on a 600+ BHP setup and it requires live logging and flashing..testing and flashing.
It's down to HGP or TVS I think.
Steve


----------



## jaybyme

Yeah understand,that's the reason I decided to leave my car with them.Had no real problems with the earlier software,but after the engine build and different power delivery I wanted custom software to suit the engine.
Nothings easy though,so it's taking longer than I had hoped.
The weather is not helping ,as it's pretty hard for them to put the car through it's paces.
Hope to get it back in the next few days though.


----------



## 3TT3

V awesome, as the other V6 turbo's ,but the cost "the horror,the horror".
Then again you arent paying 1800 + euro/about 1500 sterling a year road tax , like you would here.


----------



## lotuselanplus2s

Boring bit of info but might be of interest.

I did a full tank of fuel driving on country roads + some motorway work, not trying to be careful or stupid with the right foot i.e. standard driving. DIS says 27 mpg but actually it's 19.9 mpg.

However if you're considering turbo'ing a V6 I would doubt fuel economy is top of your priorities.


----------



## V6RUL

Yep..as the MAF is rescaled the DIS mpg is off by the % of scaling.
My real average on the Swiss trip last year was 24mpg with mixed driving.
A decent map can give a decent mpg return.
Steve


----------



## A8VCG

V6RUL said:


> Yep..as the MAF is rescaled the DIS mpg is off by the % of scaling.
> My real average on the Swiss trip last year was 24mpg with mixed driving.
> A decent map can give a decent mpg return.
> Steve


Will keep an eye on my mpg - I'm not running as much power as you big boys but think I am returning 26mpg. This evaporates when it's hammertime! :lol:


----------



## jamman

feck the mpg hammer down boys


----------



## lotuselanplus2s

jamman said:


> feck the mpg hammer down boys


Your wish is my command!

I'm saddened to see Steve & Craig that you've managed to keep your cars in the twenties - it's not a good map that gives good mpg, it's not using your right foot correctly :lol:


----------



## V6RUL

Don't worry..when I'm on it she goes lower than 8mpg.
Steve


----------



## jamman

V6RUL said:


> Don't worry..when I was last on it in 2010 she goes lower than 8mpg.
> Steve


----------



## V6RUL

jamman said:


> V6RUL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't worry..when I was last on it in 2010 she goes lower than 8mpg.
> Steve
Click to expand...

Don't worry James..once your snail grows up maybe you can burn some "go go juice"
Steve


----------



## jamman

V6RUL said:


> jamman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> V6RUL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't worry..when I was last on it in 2010 she goes lower than 8mpg.
> Steve
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Don't worry James..once your snail grows up maybe you can burn some "go go juice"
> Steve
Click to expand...

Maybe this year you might run at the RR do (soon TBA)

Who am I kiddding :wink:


----------



## V6RUL

Who knows..but I will be a busy boy this year..
Steve


----------



## A8VCG

V6RUL said:


> [email protected] said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> V6RUL said:
> 
> 
> 
> HPA software is old and originated from HGP in Germany and could do with bringing into the 21st century.
> Steve
> 
> 
> 
> Depends on what turbo kit you are running. Our newer EFR turbo kits are developed and build completely in-house (both hardware and software). HGP is no longer a collaborator on our VR6 turbo builds (not since the Garrett FT days).
> 
> Interesting read. Our tunes are well known for being a little "safe" in comparison to many custom maps out there. The question is, what is being compromised (if anything) safety/emissions wise with these custom tunes to achieve the results.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If I am wrong about HGP maps then I apologise unreservedly and await your response to the PM sent to you by someone on this forum who has purchased an EFR kit off you last year..
> 
> With regards to your safe maps, it appears that UM take some credit on Vortex for putting their own on at HPA customers requests..why is this? If I am wrong I apologise once again..
> Steve
Click to expand...

Here is a copy of my ECU File - Will let you all decide! :


----------



## lotuselanplus2s

Hi all

just in case any forum members had presumed, because of lack of posting, that my TT had died I thought a quick update was merited.

I just had a new MOT & all was fine - the emissions were all well within limits with no 'help' to get a passable result.

The car still goes like s*** off a shovel & has zero issues as a daily driver.

I'm sorry that my thread has become so boring...... buy a V6 - spends lots of £ - bolt on big turbo - lots of power but no drivability issues - job done.

If you do want an "agggh'" problem to make you all feel better then the biggest issue is tyre wear. I was running Falken 914's as I like soft grippy tyres but 6k per tyre meant they were becoming a serious cost issue, like petrol. I'm trying out Goodyear Eagle F1 Asymettrics in the hope they might last longer - they're now both nearly the same price hence it's only down to the drive quality.

All the best
Peter

ps I forgot to add that I gave it a wash last month! Next one is probably due in 2016.


----------



## Mondo

Fook me, for a second there I thought he's blowing 6 grand on tyres?!?! 

:lol:

I had the Falken FK452s for ages. Were fine, and cheap. Then they became expensive, and now unavailable. Like you, I'm trying Eagle F1 Asym 2s and so far I like 'em, mostly for the huge rim protector that make the tyres look wider than the 235/40/18s they are.

Alternatively, do what I did: buy a *1.8T* - spends lots of £ - bolt on *hybrid *turbo (and a whole lot of other junk) - lots of power but no drivability issues - job done


----------



## lotuselanplus2s

Hi Mondo

I was on 452's - good mid-price sticky tyre. Then swopped to 914's & they were similar but the price keeps going up so that now they're more expensive than Eagle's etc - mad....

I'm happy with the Eagle's handling so far (they're only on the back at the moment) but I hadn't noticed the rim protection  After your post I had a look. That is a massive plus for them. I touched a curb last week with the back wheel & presumed I'd curbed the rim as usual - now I know why I hadn't!
That's a £200 saving every year or two immediately!!!

There's loads of surface water this morning + greasy roads but the tyres / handling have been fine, no aquaplaning. However if I put my foot down in anything below fifth gear then the dash starts flashing that annoying orange circular arrow.

I do like Haldex + ESP when the weather's like this.


----------



## lotuselanplus2s

Just a quick update - sadly one of my Bilstein dampers, fitted only a couple of years ago, decided to die recently. The cars been drivable but not with much spirit + it 'crashes' whenever the front passenger wheel finds the smallest rut. Works been nuts hence I haven't got around to booking it in to the garage for age's.

But 'Hurrah' the new one's being fitted next week!!!

At the same time they're fixing the A/C - sadly the 'matrix' appears to have become like a T Bag, probably from old age, hence the front end all has to come off to get at it. If you thought a normal TT needs A/C then I can assure you mine DEFINITELY needs it. Having a dirty great big turbo etc just in front / underneath your feet doesn't make for a nice experience unless you're on the motorway with the windows open. I have absolutely no idea how Steve C survives - possibly he drives everywhere in just his budgie smugglers :lol: :lol:

Come Wednesday & all will be Cool (literally & figuratively) 8)

ps still goes like s**t off a s****l


----------



## V6RUL

Sorry to hear a billy has gone south but next week will be here soon enough.
All my AC has been removed to weight save and also my chargecooler pump fits nicely into the gap that the compressor used to sit in.
Windows are our current AC if required, but we've not suffered without it.
Obv if we are stuck in traffic for any length of time, things do warm up a little.
My DP, turbo hot side and exhaust manifold are Zircotec ceramic coated to keep heat within.
Steve


----------



## lotuselanplus2s

Damper sorted, A/C working, a few tanks of petrol emptied - all's well 

I've even used it recently as a courier van to move boxes of stock around - strangely 150kg of stuff carefully packed in the back with the seats folded & you can't feel it blunting the acceleration.

I think I've done about 10,000 miles since the conversion & there's not much to report - it doesn't appear to any water top ups to the intake coolant radiator tank, oil levels / quality don't appear to suffer (still changed regularly though), standard brakes are ample with no fade in normal use etc. The only thought that does stand out is it does apprreciate driving on super unleaded - when OEM I couldn't tell much difference between 95 & 97/98 Octane but with the turbo it runs much cleaner / smoother with super. Wak did map it in the hope it would get Super but it's still able to run on 95 if needed / wanted.

Apart from that it's been completely fine / good - the clutch has lightened up lots & it's easy to do hill starts etc, I've probably adjusted my driving style but it's really not a scary car, just very quick when you fancy it to be.

I have also noticed that whenever I now look at road tests, & the journalist is going nuts about the acceleration etc, I always now look at the cars weight & it's power + the price. Gives me a nice smug feeling if BHP divided by Kg is less than mine & it's ££££££ - sad really, must be a mid-life crisis thing.


----------



## L33JSA

Craig.....do you still have this fault code? Usually means your timing is out!


----------



## lotuselanplus2s

Hi Lee

I think you're getting your V6 Turbo's mixed - Craig's is the red one, mine's the silver one & Steve's is the one covered in sticky back plastic :lol: (sorry Steve)


----------



## L33JSA

lotuselanplus2s said:


> Hi Lee
> 
> I think you're getting your V6 Turbo's mixed - Craig's is the red one, mine's the silver one & Steve's is the one covered in sticky back plastic :lol: (sorry Steve)


Not mixed up mate.......hence why I said 'Craig' in my post so I wasn't aiming it at you as it was him that posted the picture of his ECU codes up ^ there back in May.


----------



## lotuselanplus2s

Oops - sorry Lee.


----------



## A8VCG

L33JSA said:


> Craig.....do you still have this fault code? Usually means your timing is out!


This was one of the issues we had when the timing was perfect yet the code was displayed.

Andrew blamed HPA.

HPA blamed Andrew.

I requested a solution.

Andrew insisted on taking the head on and off...

Until a simple solution was agreed with HPA to increase the tolerances of the sensor in the mapping.

There was nothing wrong with the sensor prior to the build so it was put down to the incorrect R32 software causing the issue.

I complained to HPA who stated the car components were old in the first instance and then backtracked and told Andrew to re-map/increase the tolerances.

Highly unsatisfactory and destroyed my trust in both parties. The whole situation cost me 5 months.

Bitter? No... looking back just disappointed. Car is great to drive however I have a tiny oil leak from the spacer which I put down to the repeated steps taking the head on and off and overlooking the correct use of sealant!


----------



## lotuselanplus2s

Happy Christmas all.

Quick update, nothing much to report - it's now on 130,000 miles, at a guess must be clost to 15,000 since the Turbo build.

I got the garage to give it it's annual service last month, only issue was an exhaust clamp needed replacing. The front Falken's needed replacing so I fitted some more Eagle Asymettric's (bargain at Camskill, only £148 delivered) & they feel good / solid / safe. Wet handling seems fine, not had a chance to find out what they're like in the dry yet....

all the best
Peter


----------



## lotuselanplus2s

Oh dear - broke down....

The car broke down this morning on the way to taking one of my son's to Rugby (in the sleet & rain).

I was 2 minutes into driving it & had started to accelerate when there was loud 'poooof' sound under the bonnet - the engine just about kept running but I coasted to a stop.

Imagine my amazement, bearing in mind it's a 'modern' car, to be able to spot the problem, find a tool in the standard toolkit in the boot, & get going again in under 4 minutes.

It had blown the main silicon air inlet pipe off the throttle body, hence the loud noise - luckily easy to see, no hot parts to touch & only a jubilee clip to re-fit. Result!

Rugby wasn't quite so good....


----------



## Mondo

Good stuff! Bet you cack'd your pants though; I know I would have.


----------



## TT Tom TT

lotuselanplus2s said:


> Oh dear - broke down....
> 
> The car broke down this morning on the way to taking one of my son's to Rugby (in the sleet & rain).
> 
> I was 2 minutes into driving it & had started to accelerate when there was loud 'poooof' sound under the bonnet - the engine just about kept running but I coasted to a stop.
> 
> Imagine my amazement, bearing in mind it's a 'modern' car, to be able to spot the problem, find a tool in the standard toolkit in the boot, & get going again in under 4 minutes.
> 
> It had blown the main silicon air inlet pipe off the throttle body, hence the loud noise - luckily easy to see, no hot parts to touch & only a jubilee clip to re-fit. Result!
> 
> Rugby wasn't quite so good....


Funnily enough this happened with my 225 of a fashion, was under boost and the hose which runs from the charge pipe to the diverter valve disconnected - big "PSHHHHH" sound and car died.

Lifted the hood, spotted immediately and then pulled a flatblade out the glovebox !



Mondo said:


> Good stuff! Bet you cack'd your pants though; I know I would have.


I'd reckon so, I absolutely s**t myself when it happened to me... It was just after I had a 3" DP & decat installed so thought it was something to do with that even though that makes no logical sense...

I mean you know how quick your mind jumps and thinks irrationally in these kind of situations.

Glad your 3.2 turbo is still going strong !


----------



## V6RUL

It happened to me once and I immediately started seeing pound signs climbing until I had a look and it was the same connection point blown off. Seems that this could be a weak point as their is only a small amount of metal to connect onto and can only be connected with a skinny jubilee clip. I have since had a bead welded onto the lip of the TB to help
Steve


----------



## lotuselanplus2s

I'm glad I'm not the only one this has happened too.

I didn't have a chance to think £££££££££££££, it all happened so fast (problem > solution). It was only in retrospect did I think about how bad it might have been.

A few years back I had an old lotus elan with the lotus twin cam engine - I'd only had it a short while & it clearly had a few problems that needed sorting. It was in the garage for a full set of new valves to be fitted & get all the carbs etc sorted properly. I picked it up, drove it a half-mile just lightly, then there was a loud bang & very low power - I gingerly drove / coasted back to the garage as it was still running. Turned out one of the plugs had broken up - it needed a re-bore / new oversize pistons / pins etc & then as it was in bits crank re-grind / main bearings. They also found the previous owner hadn't bothered putting all the bolts back to hold the block / gearbox / clutch etc together & hadn't tightened them either. All in all quite expensive but god it ran beautifully after that + I didn't mind absolutely thrashing the engine after that as I knew everything was new! It was only cost a couple of grand for all the work + £400 for the pistons so not as bad as I first thought it could be.

I try to take the philisophical view that any breakdown can be fixed & the limit will be the cars scrap value which isn't as much as my boring family car.


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## Mondo

I had the other end of that TB hose come off once. Took me a while to work out what had happened. Was a bugger to get back on, but then I didn't have to - I had the Sultan do it for me. 

From memory; it was a while ago... :?


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## lotuselanplus2s

I've realised it's been 18 months since the build was finished & 15 months since it was re-mapped.

The cars now on 136k & I'd guess I've done 10-15k since it was turbo'd.

Things I've had to do since the turbo'ing are:
- change MAF internals (it just died for some reason but are OEM hence not difficult)
- fit the TB hose back on
- change tyre's
- replace one broken Bilstein damper (grrrrr)
- replace the A/C matrix (ouch - expensive)
- clear an airbag code with VAGCOM (hasn't come back)
- replace very old battery
- normal servicing
- lots of petrol, no fluids

In short, it's been brilliant. All the above stuff is normal wear and tear with nothing caused by the turbo'ing.

In hindsight the best upgrade for the money was WAK's re-map - it improved it immeasurably & made the car a perfectly viable daily. I never did manage to get back to Staines to get the fuel air mixture richened but clearly Wak was right & it wasn't such an issue as otherwise I would have holed a piston by now.

I'm surprised no one else has bitten the bullet & at least gone for the V6 DTM kit from HPA - it's great fun knowing your bog standard looking car can go like stink if you ever fancy.


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## V6RUL

Not bad..

Nowt broken on mine in the last 12 months..last issue was a broken wire on my haldex loom.
Will need at least one new tyre come MOT time..but if your not burning rubber..your not driving hard enough..
Steve


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## jamman

V6RUL said:


> Not bad..
> 
> Nowt broken on mine in the last 12 months..last issue was a broken wire on my haldex loom.
> Will need at least one new tyre come MOT time..but if your not burning rubber..your not driving hard enough..
> Steve


OK then :lol: :lol:

Loads of rubber laid down at the pod by "the beast"


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## lotuselanplus2s

Another MAF bite's the dust........

I never thought MAF's would become a consumible item.
I think I've toasted 4 in the last 2 years - I've now bought the electronic parts via eBay for £40 for the next time it goes pop. They might work.....

However even with the MAF disconnected it's great - it just drives more like an Old Skool engine (pop, bang, wheeze, VROOOM)..


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## gogs

Sounds like an awesome machine 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rotoryboy

Can I ask a question? Would you go through all of this again for the Turbo'd TT?


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## lotuselanplus2s

Apologies for being so slow to reply, it's the summer holidays.....

The short answer is yes I would, it's completely drivable. You don't need to make allowances or excuses for it when you drive it. I can drive it like a shopping car or put my foot down, whichever I fancy.

Nearly all problems I've had with the car since turbo'ing it are just normal service items or things wearing out because it's an old car. Apart from it goes through tyre's quicker now + it seems as if it now manage's to break MAF's periodically. However I now know what the symptom's are, when it happens (the same hill 1/2 mile from my house everytime when it's still cold), & how to get it going again - 15 seconds max on the side of the road to continue driving & then 5 minutes at home swopping the electrical part of the MAF over (£30 each now I've found a cheap supply).

The only reason for not doing it again might be the initial cost, but then it's really a decision of whether you want to have a car costing £5k or one thats cost approx £15-20k. In my case I've already spent the money so it's not something worth considering.

I've wondered recently what I would do if I could no longer drive the car i.e. had to get another car that wasn't a TT (probably because my twin boys no longer fit in the back). I think I'd possibly get a really boring rubbish car that I didn't care about purely because any other car with 4 seats that wasn't insanely expensive to buy would be a let down.


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## A8VCG

Had a bit of a play with a Black 997 Turbo the other night and boy was it quick. Good news though, it didn't leave me behind and there wasn't much in it before hitting the anchors at 165!

Would I turbo a v6 again? I don't think its the sort of project you expect to do twice!

But would I go through it again?! Yes but it would need to be with a trustworthy installer.

What would I do differently?

Spec wise, I wouldn't change a thing but finding a good installer is critical to the project. My installer was recommended to me but didn't even fit the top mounts on my suspension properly! [smiley=bomb.gif]

Good to hear from you peter, how are the Bilsteins?


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## lotuselanplus2s

Hi Craig

I'm good, hope you are too.

The suspension is behaving itself but I'm a bit more careful to avoid known potholes ( in hindsight that's what I think broke it).

Biggest problem now is some nice person has parked into the rear and split the paint on the rear plastic bumper. Another nice person has presumably opened their 4x4's door twice onto the rear wing hence I've got 2 dents on the top of the wing. 
Bloody annoying.

Cest la vie

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## A8VCG

lotuselanplus2s said:


> Hi Craig
> 
> I'm good, hope you are too.
> 
> The suspension is behaving itself but I'm a bit more careful to avoid known potholes ( in hindsight that's what I think broke it).
> 
> Biggest problem now is some nice person has parked into the rear and split the paint on the rear plastic bumper. Another nice person has presumably opened their 4x4's door twice onto the rear wing hence I've got 2 dents on the top of the wing.
> Bloody annoying.
> 
> Cest la vie
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, but these people are not allowed cars in heaven!


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## lotuselanplus2s

Hi all

Sadly I'm going to have to sell the TT.
My company is going pearshaped hence I'm forced to cut household costs & having a second car doesn't make sense.

As you'll know from my build thread there are no mechanical issues with the car & it's visually very OEM.
It does have a couple of small dings that i'm getting sorted by the bodyshop hence it's not for sale, or in the 'for sale' section yet.

I have no idea of it's value but will have a think. Any ideas?
There aren't any other daily driver V6 manual's with 460 bhp / 470 torque to compare it to......

Cheers
Peter

ps I'm Oxfordshire / Warwickshire / Gloucershire borders


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## conlechi

lotuselanplus2s said:


> Hi all
> 
> Sadly I'm going to have to sell the TT.
> My company is going pearshaped hence I'm forced to cut household costs & having a second car doesn't make sense.
> 
> As you'll know from my build thread there are no mechanical issues with the car & it's visually very OEM.
> It does have a couple of small dings that i'm getting sorted by the bodyshop hence it's not for sale, or in the 'for sale' section yet.
> 
> I have no idea of it's value but will have a think. Any ideas?
> There aren't any other daily driver V6 manual's with 460 bhp / 470 torque to compare it to......
> 
> Cheers
> Peter
> 
> ps I'm Oxfordshire / Warwickshire / Gloucershire borders


Sorry to hear Peter after all the time ,effort and cash that went into the build  , good luck wth the sale and hope business sorts itself out


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## Mondo

Ah, poos.  Awesome car, mate; a shame it has to go. I'd be up for it, but I'm not sure I could swing a 3rd car past the Mrs. :?

Hope you get a good price for it. Good luck with the job and sale.


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## jamman

This is not good to hear 

I hope things turn round quickly for you.

The car needs to be marketed properly because it's target audience is very small, loads of pictures and Dyno prints etc etc and be realistic with your price.

Good luck mate


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## A8VCG

Gutted to read this earlier on. For those of you that don't know Peter and i shared a bit of a journey going through similar conversions in the UK and shared many stories and ideas on issues such as the clutch options, fuel pump and the list goes on and on...

Someone will be getting a very decent car & whoever it is i'll be on tap to offer any help I can,


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## gogs

I'm gutted to hear this peter, I kept an eye on your and Craig's builds and was always slightly envious of you both 

I really hope things come good for you business wise, though it may not feel like it your doing the right thing ☹️
on another note I may have considered your car had I not bought the current motor, that said I'd be interested to hear what your after for it, you never know 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## lotuselanplus2s

Hi all

thanks for the comments & advice.

I've still got a short while before the bodyworks sorted so hopefully I'll win the lottery & won't need to sell it - if not I'll follow the advice + try to work out what a realistic price is.

Just going off to have a good cry [smiley=bigcry.gif]


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## E3 YOB

I see nothing changes around here.

Post a build thread; let the mapping wars, AFR squabbles erupt 

Good thread to read lotus, shame you have to sell the car [smiley=bigcry.gif]


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## lotuselanplus2s

Thanks Mr Yob

I never thought i'd need to sell it - I was counting on it seeing me through to when I was an OAP (20 years to go) hence I didn't bother to cut any corners.

Looking back i have had use of it with the turbo for two years & nearly 20,000 miles hence it's not all bad - it's definitely run in now & all the gremlins sorted :0)


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## A8VCG

lotuselanplus2s said:


> Thanks Mr Yob
> 
> I never thought i'd need to sell it - I was counting on it seeing me through to when I was an OAP (20 years to go) hence I didn't bother to cut any corners.
> 
> Looking back i have had use of it with the turbo for two years & nearly 20,000 miles hence it's not all bad - it's definitely run in now & all the gremlins sorted :0)


I'm sure you can always buy it back Pete


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## Matt B

Sorry to hear about your business. Hope things pick up for you soon.


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## Matt B

E3 YOB said:


> I see nothing changes around here.
> 
> Post a build thread; let the mapping wars, AFR squabbles erupt
> 
> Good thread to read lotus, shame you have to sell the car [smiley=bigcry.gif]


Bloody hell - the lesser spotted Yob.

Nice to have you back Fraser


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## lotuselanplus2s

Hi all

the car is now officially for sale!
viewtopic.php?f=41&t=1394017

£12,000 & it's yours.


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## lotuselanplus2s

Price drop
£10,000 now


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## lotuselanplus2s

Sadly Now Sold [smiley=bigcry.gif] [smiley=bigcry.gif] [smiley=bigcry.gif] [smiley=bigcry.gif] [smiley=bigcry.gif]


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## gogs

I hope you don't miss her too much Peter 

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## jamman

lotuselanplus2s said:


> Sadly Now Sold [smiley=bigcry.gif] [smiley=bigcry.gif] [smiley=bigcry.gif] [smiley=bigcry.gif] [smiley=bigcry.gif]


Cars can always be replaced mate

Get yourself back in the black and take it from there, good luck


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## lotuselanplus2s

As you say cars can always be replaced - my automotive dreams are now based on hoping to own a 15 year old hyundai with 230k on the clock & a half eaten kebab under the passenger seat :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I wish I could say I sold the guy a pup........ I can't.

C'est la vie

I better not log in for a while as it'll only upset me.


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## jamman

lotuselanplus2s said:


> a half eaten kebab under the passenger seat :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> I wish I could say I sold the guy a pup........ I can't.


If it's lamb I might be interested.....

I bought a new misano Sline TT back in the day and it ran for 39k faultless miles for me, I sold it and it was nothing but trouble for the new owner, I called him to ask how he was getting on and was subjected to a torrent of abuse.

Stay positive and things will change.


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## A8VCG

What did i miss?

All the best to you Peter and good buy for the new owner. If the new owner wants any info that he doesnt aleady have then feel free to drop me a message.


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