# Silverstone, in the wet ~:-o



## Stu-Oxfordshire (May 7, 2002)

Ah well, you live and you learn....yesterday (thanks to Mr Beves) I got my first ever outing at Silverstone on a trackday....and instead of living out my dream of bisecting corners like Copse, Becketts and Stowe in my nimble go-kart, I slipped slided, went sideways, backwards, round and round...and round....into the gravel, again and again. It was the slippiest (is that a word?) and most heavily red flagged (11 in total) trackday i've ever been on 

Having driven Castle Combe, Oulton, Rockingham, Spa and even the ring in wet+cold conditions, I was expecting Silverstone to be a lot of fun, AND despite the conditions (soaking wet at 9am, wet until 2pm, wet all day turning to greay moist by 4pm) was expecting at least SOME grip.... :roll:

Hmm....so much for best laid plans and all that....I can't ever remember such a slippery track....not once, not ever. Picture your local busiest roundabout on a freezing friday evening with a sprinkling of sleet and a hefty covering of diesel...well that's what it was like: lighter than ligh understeer into lift off snappy oversteer (why oh why wasn't i wearing road tyres) *I mean, this is an F1 track...I expected it to offer at least SOME grip in the wet* 

*Sighting laps*: out of pits, into the first left /right kink at Beckett's, the S2 Elise infront of me is sideways at 50mph, I'm thinking "oh, haha look at him...that's a but silly for a sighting lap isn't it....WOOOAAA....WAAAOOOOOH" <as the nose of my car points down the club back straight I'm looking out of the pax window to see the next left hand apex>

...10 seconds later a caterham spins off at Chapel.
Before the 5 sighting laps had finished, there were 2 red flags: a racing MG had binned it on Hangar straight (heavily) and an S1 Exige binned it at Priory, fortunately no damage to the Exige but the MG was totaled.

The day was shared between x3 owners clubs: Lotus on Track (who I was with) MG's on Track, and Fiat Coupe Club. Each club had x1 20 minute session per hour. When we came in after the first session I joined a group of Loti owners for a tea, it wasn't just me who had suffered _"I'm not going out in that, I'll wait til it dries"_...I heard a fair few times before 10am.

I missed the 2nd session and in the 3rd, went out for some more 50mph fun.

In qualifying for the British GP this year, I stood at the apex of the left/right hand kink leading into Becketts: this is where the cars are bottoming out and they keep the throttle buried until they are through the SECOND apex, ,going deep into the turn before a bare lift into the next left. On the Autosport website, it shows Alonso was doing 178MPH through this apex.

Well, I think the fastest I got through here all day was about 60.... :lol: complete comedy value. The track just never dried out - despite glarng sunshine and fairly mild ambient temps, there was stan ding water all over the track til about 2pm, and it's stayed "wet" for the rest of the day, the hairiest parts of the track were the polished crests of the rippled tarmac where the F1 cars bottom-out: the uppermost grain of the tarmac has been removed to reveal a black, polished series of hillocks, the worst of these are under braking into Stowe, Club and Priory....

All in all had a great day but, thought I would post up how hairy it was as it seemed like a completely different planet - we drove Spa in may at 4'C - it was soaking wet but I was still able to apex at a corner like Pouhon at about 70/80mph - nowhere near that at Silverstone. 
*Paul* - I seem to remember a post from you about 3-4 years ago where you went on a trackday at Silverstone and they stopped the whole day completely after lunch because too many people were going off?

At lunch we found that most of the instructors were teaching the wet line - round the outside of almost every corner there was a much more porous covering of tarmac (less used) which offered a tangibly higher level of grip.

So, all in all a great day but not one I want to repeat for a while, neither will the victims of the red flags; still, learnt a lot about the car even still. None in the least that semi slick tyres do NOT work in those conditions, the paddock was punctuated with Loti owners who were passsed by Fiat Coupe's shod with road tyres - definitely a better choice; I'#d have been quicker in the Skoda  
Some pics:


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## omen666 (Oct 10, 2004)

Nice right up Stu.

The surface at SS doesn't have as much grip as any other circuit I have driven, and in the dry. I think its well overdue a resurface.

And as the circuit is so featureless it makes it harder to learn. I had half a day recently in the CSL and really didn't enjoy it.


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## b3ves (May 6, 2002)

Sorry to hear it wasn't as much fun as you'd hoped. I've done 2 Silverstone days this year in the dry and there was loads of grip, so I'm as surprised as you :?

I've gone ahead and booked 27th January with LoT, but now I'm having second thoughts...

Rob


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

Nice write up Stu.

I can only imagine how it was. My Oulton a couple of weeks ago was wet all day but on raod tyres & with some weight i was able to enjoy the day & get some good laps in. I suffered more on the rises where my car went very light which is mucho scary when carrying 100MPH+ in a 2 ton motor. Had a 90 degree moment that i'd rather not repeat but still learning so happy with what i achieved.

I've bailed from my Brands Hatch day on Thursday as the forecast just looks stupid plus my workload has meant a day off would not be a smart move.

TD's can still be fun in the wet, but they are frustrating. Glad you survived.


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## Stu-Oxfordshire (May 7, 2002)

b3ves said:


> I've gone ahead and booked 27th January with LoT, but now I'm having second thoughts...
> Rob


If there's a nice, crisp cold patch, then the best we can hope for is a frosty morning with a dry track by the afternoon.

This video HERE which as posted by a chap called Hans, who I shared a garage with, pretty much shows all you need to see about the lack of grip. Watch out for the nice little power slides from the 340R out of Luffield at the end of the lap..... 

**Edited to add: Screw that, this one's even better


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## kmpowell (May 6, 2002)

Sort of in keeping with this topic, but I heard on the grape vine today that the guy who bought my VX wrote it off at the weekend. Apparantly he lost it on a soaked smooth tarmac section of the M4 just east of Cardiff (I think on the interchange).


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## stephengreen (May 6, 2002)

Had an hours tuition in one of silverstone's exiges in the wet on the 20th. Have to say i thoroughly enjoyed it. I'd only driven in the dry up until that point. After doing a couple of laps using normal lines and understeering into every corner the instructor encouraged me to use "wet" lines. The difference in available grip was marked. However braking from 120 mph down hanger and driving around the outside of stowe takes some getting use to. So does driving around the outside of club just a few feet from the barrier, thinking it's going to understeer into them, at any moment. Incidentally, did a full day across the road at the silverstone rally school a few days before. The cars used are mk2 escorts that look like they wont last the day, but are brilliant fun. It was pouring with rain and very slippery on stage but you can get them at impossible angles and still recover, they really do flatter and magnify any car control skills the driver may have. They are much easier to hold in a slide than a caterham on tarmac for instance which, after two drift course's, am only just getting to grips with. At the end of the day nobody will ever reach their full potential as a driver without developing their control in wet or slippery conditions so if silverstone is slippery than most the sooner that might be achieved.


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## jdn (Aug 26, 2002)

Deceiving pictures - hardly looks damp.

Video tells the truth though - looks more 'greasy' than soaking.

Was it Mansell who claimed you couldn't now the limit until you had been over it?


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## Stu-Oxfordshire (May 7, 2002)

kmpowell said:


> Sort of in keeping with this topic, but I heard on the grape vine today that the guy who bought my VX wrote it off at the weekend. Apparantly he lost it on a soaked smooth tarmac section of the M4 just east of Cardiff (I think on the interchange).


Kev, sorry to hear it mate :? 
Did you ever meet the guy who bought the car? It may end up back at TMS; apparently most of the VX dealers send the car back there to get repaired. I have noticed that the VXZ/Loti forums are littered with threads about crashing at this time of year.



stephengreen said:


> Had an hours tuition in one of silverstone's exiges in the wet on the 20th. Have to say i thoroughly enjoyed it. I'd only driven in the dry up until that point. After doing a couple of laps using normal lines and understeering into every corner the instructor encouraged me to use "wet" lines. The difference in available grip was marked. However braking from 120 mph down hanger and driving around the outside of stowe takes some getting use to. So does driving around the outside of club just a few feet from the barrier, thinking it's going to understeer into them, at any moment. Incidentally, did a full day across the road at the silverstone rally school a few days before. The cars used are mk2 escorts that look like they wont last the day, but are brilliant fun. It was pouring with rain and very slippery on stage but you can get them at impossible angles and still recover, they really do flatter and magnify any car control skills the driver may have. They are much easier to hold in a slide than a caterham on tarmac for instance which, after two drift course's, am only just getting to grips with. At the end of the day nobody will ever reach their full potential as a driver without developing their control in wet or slippery conditions so if silverstone is slippery than most the sooner that might be achieved.


Hi Stephen, 
I'm interested: How do you compare the benefit to your driving skills from doing the rally school compared to the Autocar/Caterham Drift School?

I've done the drift school once now and really enjoyed it, and when we we there I sauntered down to Club corner and got a look at the rally school - at the time they were using the FWD Peugeot 206's, which looked a barrel of laughs; as you say, they were getting them at some crazy angles and recovering.


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## chip (Dec 24, 2002)

Stu-Oxfordshire said:


> This video HERE which as posted by a chap called Hans,


If this Hans is whom I think it is, I had a pax ride with him @ Cadwell with LOT. Boy, he is one tidy driver and made a mockery of some higher power elises & exiges!!!  :lol:


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## stephengreen (May 6, 2002)

Stu-Oxfordshire said:


> Hi Stephen,
> I'm interested: How do you compare the benefit to your driving skills from doing the rally school compared to the Autocar/Caterham Drift School?
> 
> I've done the drift school once now and really enjoyed it, and when we we there I sauntered down to Club corner and got a look at the rally school - at the time they were using the FWD Peugeot 206's, which looked a barrel of laughs; as you say, they were getting them at some crazy angles and recovering.


Hi Stu
I found the rally course much easier and more fun than the drift course. On loose gravel, inducing and holding a slide, was much easier to judge than on dry tarmac. I found that on tarmac the there was a much smaller degree of throttle control between not enough and too much. Indeed, there were a couple of guy's who had been on, and passed, their rally licenses but struggled along with the rest of us in the caterhams on tarmac. So in answer to your question i would say that the rally course gives the benefit of the quickest way to develop sliding skills but a session on tarmac is the next step to fully develop them for potential road or track situations.
Incidentally i never took the circuit rally course because as you point out they use front wheel drive cars. The course i attended is on the other side of the A43 and has the same name but they use rear wheel drive escort's
http://www.silverstonerally.co.uk/SRS/html/home.html

I enjoyed this that much that I'm seriously considering doing a similar thing but in a group N Subaru rally car. Discounting the TT Ive never driven a proper 4-wheel drive car before, and learning any different techniques necessary sounds fun and will further quest for furthering my driving knowledge. 
I'm torn between these two company's at the moment

http://www.billgwynne.com/res_web_direc ... 00&catId=5

http://www.rally-school.com/rally-drivi ... urses.html

The Billgwynne is favourite so far because it's on gravel all day but the other course is only half a day on gravel OR tarmac.
Anyone here been on either to pass on an opinion?


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## kmpowell (May 6, 2002)

Stu-Oxfordshire said:


> kmpowell said:
> 
> 
> > Sort of in keeping with this topic, but I heard on the grape vine today that the guy who bought my VX wrote it off at the weekend. Apparantly he lost it on a soaked smooth tarmac section of the M4 just east of Cardiff (I think on the interchange).
> ...


Yep I sure did, it was a private sale so he picked it up personally. A 21 year old Student on his gap year.

'tis the time of year indeed.


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## Stu-Oxfordshire (May 7, 2002)

W7 PMC said:


> Nice write up Stu.
> 
> I can only imagine how it was. My Oulton a couple of weeks ago was wet all day but on raod tyres & with some weight i was able to enjoy the day & get some good laps in. I suffered more on the rises where my car went very light which is mucho scary when carrying 100MPH+ in a 2 ton motor. Had a 90 degree moment that i'd rather not repeat but still learning so happy with what i achieved.
> 
> ...


Sorry Paul, missed your post for some reason. Yes, TD's in the wet I enjoy immensely but for whatever reason the R888's would not generate ANY heat in them at all on Sunday (despite lowering the pressures significantly): everyone else suffered from this (as you can see in the videos)  an ambulance went out at one point (on road tyres, obviously) and it was comical watching a caterham spin off BEHIND it trying to keep up :lol:

When I was at Spa and the ring in the wet there was bags of grip on the same tyres, just a bizarre day on sunday


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

:lol: Stu - welcome to the "I survived Slipperystone" club.

I'll have a video up soon of a couple of years ago when I did it in a Caterham. It was treachorous and one of the guys sharing the car put it into the wall.

I really like the GP circuit but it is a nightmare in the wet. On that day Thorney (RS4) and a guy in a 911 Turbo (AWD of course) both did a couple of laps and came it as it was so bad. Apparently they'd done a classic car racing day just days before and the oil was still around.

Good thing with F1 tracks though is the amount of run off. :wink:


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## PhilJ (Sep 2, 2002)

Stu

I was at Silverstone on the Saturday. It chucked it down with rain in the morning, meaning there was standing water in quite a few places. There was also definitely oil on the track, and I think a racing mini had a very heavy off as a consequence of this. I went out with two different instructors and each said it was the worse conditions they had ever seen at Silverstone. It really was like driving on ice.

I was on AO48â€™s and, like you, could get no heat in them whatsoever. It was really hard work. The grip was also very inconsistent â€" some parts of the track actually had a little bit of grip, whereas others, even at comically low speeds, offered virtually no grip at all.

There were some amazing cars there, with a great mixture of race and track day specials in the advanced group.

I think the link to this picture sums up the day quite wellâ€¦
http://80.176.91.142/performanceart.php ... &start=350

Cheers
Phil


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## HighTT (Feb 14, 2004)

scoTTy said:


> :lol: Stu - welcome to the "I survived Slipperystone" club.












I'm a member too  :lol:

I've done Silverstone GP a number of times (it's my local circuit)
and I've NEVER had a completely dry day


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## Stu-Oxfordshire (May 7, 2002)

stephengreen said:


> Hi Stu
> I found the rally course much easier and more fun than the drift course. On loose gravel, inducing and holding a slide, was much easier to judge than on dry tarmac. I found that on tarmac the there was a much smaller degree of throttle control between not enough and too much. Indeed, there were a couple of guy's who had been on, and passed, their rally licenses but struggled along with the rest of us in the caterhams on tarmac. So in answer to your question i would say that the rally course gives the benefit of the quickest way to develop sliding skills but a session on tarmac is the next step to fully develop them for potential road or track situations.
> Incidentally i never took the circuit rally course because as you point out they use front wheel drive cars. The course i attended is on the other side of the A43 and has the same name but they use rear wheel drive escort's
> http://www.silverstonerally.co.uk/SRS/html/home.html
> ...


Thanks Stephen, I'd picked a couple of these up in my search, will defo have a look and give the wife a nudge as a possible xmas pressie 



scoTTy said:


> :lol: Stu - welcome to the "I survived Slipperystone" club.


Excellent - there's potential for developing a proper club here then  I was sure you'd had a slippery day there at some point!



PhilJ said:


> Stu
> 
> I was at Silverstone on the Saturday. It chucked it down with rain in the morning, meaning there was standing water in quite a few places. There was also definitely oil on the track, and I think a racing mini had a very heavy off as a consequence of this. I went out with two different instructors and each said it was the worse conditions they had ever seen at Silverstone. It really was like driving on ice.
> 
> ...


Cheers Phil [smiley=thumbsup.gif] Knowing the conversion you have, did you use full throttle at any point? I found myself in 4th pretty much the whole lap - in 3rd gear exiting club even at 3K revs it was spinning up at half throttle


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## PhilJ (Sep 2, 2002)

Stu-Oxfordshire said:


> Cheers Phil [smiley=thumbsup.gif] Knowing the conversion you have, did you use full throttle at any point? I found myself in 4th pretty much the whole lap - in 3rd gear exiting club even at 3K revs it was spinning up at half throttle


I was short shifting the whole time, but could use full throttle provided I took a high gear. Saying that I took a brief trip into the gravel (managed to drive out!) by applying throttle too abruptly whilst on a straight!

I've got a lot less torque than you, so probably explains why I could use full throttle, albeit only in 3rd, 4th and 5th. I also only used 3rd gear in a few corners.

Cheers

Phil


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## Stu-Oxfordshire (May 7, 2002)

PhilJ said:


> Stu-Oxfordshire said:
> 
> 
> > Cheers Phil [smiley=thumbsup.gif] Knowing the conversion you have, did you use full throttle at any point? I found myself in 4th pretty much the whole lap - in 3rd gear exiting club even at 3K revs it was spinning up at half throttle
> ...


I would imagine the exit of club (the first part of it) in he dry is 2nd gear - on sunday, if I floored it in 4th (about 40 mph?) in between the exit of the tightest part and the longer right hander it would spin up. Potty!

Phil, I'd be interested to drive your car for a potter round a dry track, and would offer a drive in mine by return just to feel the difference in power delivery, 6 and half a doz as they say, except I think the PTW of the S2 would far exceed the VXR


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## PhilJ (Sep 2, 2002)

Stu-Oxfordshire said:


> Phil, I'd be interested to drive your car for a potter round a dry track, and would offer a drive in mine by return just to feel the difference in power delivery, 6 and half a doz as they say, except I think the PTW of the S2 would far exceed the VXR


Stu, you're more than welcome. I'm probably not going to have the chance to get out on track until late January onwards. I'll probably try and do a day at Bedford, so I'll let you know once I've got a better idea about dates. Let me know what your plans are.

Cheers

Phil


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## Stu-Oxfordshire (May 7, 2002)

PhilJ said:


> Stu-Oxfordshire said:
> 
> 
> > Phil, I'd be interested to drive your car for a potter round a dry track, and would offer a drive in mine by return just to feel the difference in power delivery, 6 and half a doz as they say, except I think the PTW of the S2 would far exceed the VXR
> ...


Yes me too. Am booked up for more comedy on 27th Jan with LoT @ Silverstone, nothing else booked after that, Bedford would be good, is one of the few other winter venues I'd consider.


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