# Evo and Scooby as track car



## omen666 (Oct 10, 2004)

Guess this will be most responded to by stu and carlos but.

After some great fun with the RS6 on track its clear its not its best environment.

So I was pondering what car is best suited to a dual purpose role and the Evo and Impreza seem to be the obvious candidates.

So by chance I came across a specialist in Chester who had about 10 of each model in stock, Graham Walker.

I was surprised by the prices, there is a really nice selection in the Â£12-15k price bracket.

I enquired which would be best suited to be track prep'd but still usable on the road. they said there was nothing in it and the main difference between the two is nothing, driver skill would make up for any performance gaps.

They suggested going for the Subaru as they are more reliable, citing the Evo's clutch as a weak point.

But I really like the look of the gun metal Evo 6 (I think), and there seem to be less Evo's around so I like that in a car.

From a 'consumables' point of view they reckoned about Â£250 a time for new front discs and pads so that is a lot cheaper than I was expecting. I recently did a set of RS6 pads in 3 events so that cost Â£230 for just the pads. Its Â£650 for a set of discs! 

So guys, what do you think the pro's and con's are in getting one of these and tracking it regularly and using it as an occasional runner.

My biggest challenge will be persuading my wife to use it as her everyday car! Otherwise I'll have to add a 3rd car to the family! :twisted:


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## sssgucci (Nov 20, 2004)

EVO! 

I guess you will get alot newer Subaru for the money though. Evo 6's are 'R' Reg shape and you will get a frog eye shape Subaru for that money easy.

My mate bought a 51 reg about 6 months ago from a dealer for 12k so you will easily get a newish one for that much money.

The evo 6 is my fav shape and look the most aggressive. :twisted:


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

In my (admittedly limited) opinion I'd say the Evo is the better track car the Scooby the better all round car.

It all depends how much of a compromise you want. What ever you get you'll still get frustrated by in on track.

Look how much Stu's done to his to get it to be a real track car.

This is why when I do get myself a track toy it's gonna be full on. i.e. probably/possibly road legal (so I can drive to tracks and on the 'ring) but decidedly track focused.


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

omen666 said:


> Guess this will be most responded to by stu and carlos but.
> 
> After some great fun with the RS6 on track its clear its not its best environment.
> 
> ...


Would love to know how you got those RS6 pads & discs prices?? I'm guessing that's not main dealer? as it's Â£375 for new front pads but Â£550 for new discs (drilled). These are fitted prices.

As for a track car, the RS6 is defo not the animal for twisty tracks, but with good brakes & suspension mods, it will keep pace with most cars. I managed to beat a Gallardo that was being driven by an instructor around Oulton Park (the look on his face was priceless). However i don't think you'd be gaining, jumping into an Evo or Scooby, although better track performers, you'd still need to mod them to be quicker round most tracks than an RS6 (perhaps excluding an Evo FQ400). as you'd be giving away a quite significant power advantage. Remember both Stu & Carlos do not run standard showroom cars.

If i was going down the track route, i'd buy an Exige/Caterham/Elise etc. or something of that gendre. By far the cheaper to run, far better out of the box on a track & if not needed as a family wagon, then can be used for general motoring duties (defo the Lotus).

I've had the same quandries, but hate the idea of multiple cars = multiple running costs (insurance, tax & servicing etc.) so i threw all into the RS6. Once she goes in the summer & i'll be driving the New S8, my desire for track events will reduce & perhaps if finances allow, i may venture out & purchase an Exige.


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## sssgucci (Nov 20, 2004)

What you want to do is get an elise with an Audi TT engine in it. That will annialate everything on he track! There are quite a few people doing this now as my mate has sold quite a few engines to Elise owners. They say nothing can come close to them on the road/track. :twisted:


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

Nah, what you want to do is get a TT with an Elise engine in it... :lol:


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## kmpowell (May 6, 2002)

sssgucci said:


> What you want to do is get an elise with an Audi TT engine in it. That will annialate everything on he track! There are quite a few people doing this now as my mate has sold quite a few engines to Elise owners. They say nothing can come close to them on the road/track. :twisted:


.....that is unless they come across an eRise, which is the elise coupled with a Honda F20(S2000) or K20(JDM Civic or Integra) engine, and a supercharger!


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## Carlos (May 6, 2002)

Evo for me. Only reason to go Subaru is price, particularly around Â£12-15k. At this money you will get a newer Scoob than Evo. Reliability - swings and roundabouts. Engines are known to go on Subarus, particularly if modified (gulp).

There is no question about pace, an Evo 300-340 will roast an STi, road or track. You'd need to get a Jap STi Spec C or something like a Litchfield Type 25 scooby to keep pace with a standard Evo 320. Its not about power, standard Evos just go round corners faster than standard Subarus. The UK Impreza STi is just not a track car.

Evo interior is nicer.

Only thing that would put me off the Evo is tank range, it has a tiny tank and so needs refuelling about every 150 miles or so. Neither of these are any good if you care one iota about fuel economy, you will not better 20-22mpg.


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## sssgucci (Nov 20, 2004)

kmpowell said:


> sssgucci said:
> 
> 
> > What you want to do is get an elise with an Audi TT engine in it. That will annialate everything on he track! There are quite a few people doing this now as my mate has sold quite a few engines to Elise owners. They say nothing can come close to them on the road/track. :twisted:
> ...


I dont know about that Kev as a few have put bigger turbo kits on. They must be pushing about 350bhp per tonne! At the bare minimum they will be remapped and a few minor mods.


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## omen666 (Oct 10, 2004)

omen666 said:


> So I was pondering what car is best suited to a dual purpose role and the Evo and Impreza seem to be the obvious candidates.
> 
> I enquired which would be best suited to be track prep'd but still usable on the road.


Agree with the sentiment on Lotus' etc, but I am looking for dual purpose as I would prefer not to have a 3rd car.

I think the Evo is looking favourite.

As for power/speed etc I am not looking for something to compete with the RS6 pace, just looking for a car that handles well and allows me to track it without costing Â£800 for a weekend in wear 'n' tear and fuel.

For a couple of grand I could swap out my other Audi and then spend 3k on suspension and remap and have a good fun car on the track and road. Set the suspension to family friendly in the week and then set it up for the weekend :twisted:


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

omen666 said:


> I think the Evo is looking favourite.
> 
> As for power/speed etc I am not looking for something to compete with the RS6 pace, just looking for a car that handles well and allows me to track it without costing Â£800 for a weekend in wear 'n' tear and fuel.
> 
> For a couple of grand I could swap out my other Audi and then spend 3k on suspension and remap and have a good fun car on the track and road. Set the suspension to family friendly in the week and then set it up for the weekend :twisted:


[1] SWHBO won't go for it
[2] You only just bought the other Audi!!
[3] You're gonna end up with 3 cars! :lol:


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## omen666 (Oct 10, 2004)

I think we can stop at [1]


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## Carlos (May 6, 2002)

omen666 said:


> As for power/speed etc I am not looking for something to compete with the RS6 pace


Cross country, straight line, whatever. Evo 320 will keep up with standard RS6 until well over 100mph.


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## Carlos (May 6, 2002)

However they are not cheap to run on track. Big heavy cars eat brakes and fuel, end of. If you are concerned about track costs, need to get something light.


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## paulb (May 6, 2002)

kmpowell said:


> .....that is unless they come across an eRise, which is the elise coupled with a Honda F20(S2000) or K20(JDM Civic or Integra) engine, and a supercharger!


None are F20s Kevin. The fore/aft engine alignment means that they end up in Westfields and Caterhams. Whereas the K20 and it's transverse layout is ideally suited to an Elise. I've not driven a supercharged version but the normally aspirated K20 with a bit of fettling can give 220 bhp. This is plenty of fun in a 750 kg car...


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## Hannibal (Dec 1, 2003)

omen666 said:


> After some great fun with the RS6 on track its clear its not its best environment.


At the risk of upsetting you, what made you think an RS6 would make a good track car?!?!? - W8PMC, I haven't seen yours, but the 'stock' car, whilst quick, isn't a track car, I doubt yours is either. If you're looking at getting a trackday car as a third car, then you're in the enviable position of getting something less than practical...don't think EVO/imprezza, think Caterham/Westfield/VX220/Elise/Exige/single seater.

H


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## davidg (Sep 14, 2002)

Hannibal said:


> omen666 said:
> 
> 
> > After some great fun with the RS6 on track its clear its not its best environment.
> ...


I have seen W7PMC it is not stock , try @580 bhp + ,,,, springs,shocks ,discs, zorst + more


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## omen666 (Oct 10, 2004)

Didn't the the 6'er with the expectation of it being good on the track. The observation is that its not its best environment and I fancy something more nimble on track.

And my preferred option is not to get a 3rd car, and yes if I did, it would be a mid-engined two seater.


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## DW225 (Jun 22, 2005)

Previous cars have included both a 290ish bhp impreza STi (classic shape) and an Evo 6 with Xtreme motorsports XT330 conversion.

I always thought that the impreza was quite "extreme" shall we say, until I bought the Evo 6. In comparison, the impreza could have been easily used by most people everyday and still do very well on track. Under normal driving, it also returned reasonable mpg figures.

The Evo (whilst being used everyday by myself :twisted: ) never really felt like an everyday car. It was harsh, loud and very very fast. Under normal driving I don't think I ever saw better than around 20mpg and once worked out that on a "spirited" :wink: drive home from work with a previous model M5 in front / behind me it did about 7 mpg!!! 

.....the only reason I got shot of it was reliability issues - the car had done only 32000 miles when I bought it, and after a further 1000 miles it decided to throw 3rd and 4th piston which was pretty much a full rebuild 

Never felt the same after it was rebuilt and also found out that the Main dealer who did the work didn't do quite as much as they should have so decided to opt out before it went again and I'd be faced with the bill. Sold it back to Xtreme motorsports at a few grand loss over six months ownership (of which it was only in my possession for one month).

However, given the choice again now, the EVO would win hands down for me every time over the impreza as an occasional car / trackday toy.

Dave 8)


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

Hannibal said:


> omen666 said:
> 
> 
> > After some great fun with the RS6 on track its clear its not its best environment.
> ...


Not upset in the slightest, it's a no brainer that the RS6 is not & never would be a suitable track car. Damon did not aquire his for track work & neither did I, hence why Damon is looking for an additional car more suitable for track.

However, as DavidG says below, mine is far from stock & half my modification costs (Â£12K in total) have gone on improving the handling of the car, so it is now a worthy track car but not ideal. I got the track bug in my car when it was standard, so spent a few Â£Â£'s making it better performing on road & track, although shorter more twisty tracks are still a challenge.

Also, he's not looking for a track only car, so a comprimise is needed, hence why Evo & Scoob are in the picture.


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## Stu-Oxfordshire (May 7, 2002)

omen666 said:


> I enquired which would be best suited to be track prep'd but still usable on the road. they said there was nothing in it and the main difference between the two is nothing, driver skill would make up for any performance gaps. They suggested going for the Subaru as they are more reliable, citing the Evo's clutch as a weak point.


Hi Damon, 
Well it's a nice "quandry" to be in. In posession of an RS6 and also in need of another dual purpose track car  
How are you determining "dual purpose" BTW? It sounds as if you want the wife to drive this car every day aka get the kids in it, the shopping, etc....? If this is the case, a track focused Impreza or Evo might be difficult for her. I for one would not trust my wife in daily ownership of such a car - she would burn the clutch out on the first shopping trip and then come back in floods of tears and blame it on me!

Anyway....to address your question.....


Carlos said:


> There is no question about pace, an Evo 300-340 will roast an STi, road or track. You'd need to get a Jap STi Spec C or something like a Litchfield Type 25 scooby to keep pace with a standard Evo 320. Its not about power, standard Evos just go round corners faster than standard Subarus. The UK Impreza STi is just not a track car.


No need for me to repeat that.

Reliability issues
Nothing to worry about here providing the car has been well maintained: A std Evo engine is rock solid. Don't forget that the MR320 and MR340 are no more than mildy fettled engines from standard. An Std Evo VI out of the blocks is about 300bhp and if you saw the fifth gear episode the other day you will see a std VI is still quicker round a track than a brand new FQ320 IX - they are THAT good a car. More attractive though is the way the engine delivers it's power: very torquey and repsonsive. You can get an Evo up to 350bhp and 350 ft lbs torque for about Â£ 1,700 all in. You would need to spend that on a std WRX to get it up to 270bhp alone. Re: Clutches, my car has done over 20 trackdays on a standard clutch and it only now needs a new one...I guess this would be the same for any other car which is putting out 350bhp.....

Re: Paul's comments re: the FQ400: the MLR did a comparison test of an MR340 vs a FQ400 this year and the 340 beat it hands down almost everywhere (in gear acceleration, standing starts) including the track due to it's power delivery and useable torque.

In summary if I were you; (providing you can persuade your wife to drive it this is) I would buy a VI or a VII no more than 2 owners with the 2nd owner having bought it as standard and then carried out some engine/brake and suspension modifications him/herself - you will get a far better value car if you go this route (as opposed to buying one from standard and modding yourself). This way you can call the respective tuning company and get the car properly checked out. I would then recommend taking it to someone like Steve Hill Motorsport for a pre sale check. I don't know anyone like this up your way (in Chester?) but can find out for you.

So the other option is to buy a low mileage (under 30K) VI or VII in completely STANDARD form and mod it yourself. To get it track worthy you will need to spend the following:

- AP 6 pot brakes: Â£ 1,700 fitted
- Braided hoses on rears and new DS2500 pads: Â£ 150
- If you want more power: Ecutek reflash, upgraded fuel pump, turbo elbow, boost controller, 3.5 inch str through exhaust and induction will give you 350-370bhp with 350 ft lbs torque for about Â£ 2K all in. 
- Coilovers: from Â£ 700 to Â£ 2,000
- Road legal Track tyres: Dunlop DO1J's: Â£ 150 a corner call it Â£ 600 all in
(then you will likely need another set of wheels to put the track tyres on if she is driving it as a daily runner but you can get a nice set of Enkei's for Â£ 600)

TOTAL: Â£ 5,450

So, you can see it costs a fair bit to get this car track ready hence my recommendation to buy one where an owner has carefull carried out the mods themselves - I would far trust someone who has taken the care to join an owners club such as the MLR, researched the modifications options list and got it done properly: you tend to find owners of these types of cars have almost had the car "over serviced" - I know many owners who have their diff oil, engine oil and brake fluid changed after every track day. Here are a selection of cars for you to mull over:

Evo VII for Â£ 13,500
Another VII - you would likely get this for under 15K
Evo VII, 20K miles, Â£ 13,500
370bhp VI for Â£ 11-12K
Nice Evo VI for 11K but 51K on the clock
This VII is probably the best bargain I can see
....but here is an equally good one...
Cars for sale section on MLR


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## omen666 (Oct 10, 2004)

Thanks Stu, lots to mull over and another forum to browse!!!

Now must work on the accounts....perhaps I can add a motorsports arm to my Project Management Consultancy and do it that way 8)


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## b3ves (May 6, 2002)

Could you/she live with a Honda Integra Type R?

I have utmost respect for both Evo and Scooby as consumate all-rounders. However, I've seen Stu and Carl spend lots on their rally cars to optimise for track use, whereas an Integra does the business straight out of the box. I followed one around Anglesey when I had my Elise and they are quick. It also only weighs 1100 kgs which makes for less component wear and fuel economy from the 1.8 litre engine (day to day and on track) should be MUCH better. Also, the relative lack of electronic wizardry may make it ultimately more rewarding on track in terms of man vs machine talent.

Just my 2 cents

Rob


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## kmpowell (May 6, 2002)

b3ves said:


> from the 1.8 litre engine


Not strictly true Rob. If you buy a new shape Type R Integra called the DC5(2001>), they are 2.0 iVTEC engines not the 1.8 they put in the older Integra models.

This may sound good, but the engine in the Integra DC5's are the Japanese Domestic Market (JDM) Type R engines which are different to the UK Type R engines found in the Civic. The JDM engines are tuned in the Civic and Integra to 220bhp, but go careful because they are designed to run on Japanese 101+ octane fuel, hence how they can get such good BHP. These JDM engines suffer badly on UK fuel, with pinking levels and serious underperformance, resulting in some potential big bills!

So IIWY I would avoid a DC5. The only Integra worth getting for UK use would be a mint DC2, but they are VERY rare and maybe a bit old for your requirements.


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## kmpowell (May 6, 2002)

Ah.. just realised that my ramblings might not make any sense unless I explain a few things. The Integra DC5 Type R is a JDM import only, it was never introduced to the UK becasue Honda UK said they didn't want to take sales away from the Civic Type R which was built and assembled in the UK.

So the cut a very boring story short;

1. The Integra DC5 Type R is bult in Japan with the JDM 220bhp Type R engine.

2. The UK Civic Type R was made in the UK and has a different 197bhp engine to the JDM Civic Type R

3. The JDM Civic Type R's have the JDM 220bhp engine and were built in Swindon and then imported to Japan.

Hope that clears things up.


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## omen666 (Oct 10, 2004)

Fair point Rob

I thought about the Civic Type R as another option, anyone got thoughts on that?


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## head_ed (Dec 10, 2002)

What's wrong with the Accord Type-R?

2.2 Litre, 212 bhp as standard - I sold my 'W' Plate for 4K last year and it was in mint condition.

Top Gear absolutely LOVED it when they reviewed it many moons ago!


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## omen666 (Oct 10, 2004)

Now that sounds interesting, 4k + 5k mods sounds good to me


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## Carlos (May 6, 2002)

Martin I can't find any on autotrader approaching that price (min Â£5.5k). Did yours have a very high mileage or something?

I am intrigued by this.


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## Kell (May 28, 2002)

omen666 said:


> Now that sounds interesting, 4k + 5k mods sounds good to me


Frying pan and fire spring to mind.

I wouldn't have thought the Acoord Typre R would make much better track car than an RS6 - unless, of course, it's a third car that you can rip apart, lighten etc.

But as that doesn't seem to meet your requirments, then I probably wouldn't.

I would have thought the biggest hurdle was getting the wife to drive whatever car you buy.


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## Kell (May 28, 2002)

Carlos said:


> Martin I can't find any on autotrader approaching that price (min Â£5.5k). Did yours have a very high mileage or something?
> 
> I am intrigued by this.


Part-exed?


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## b3ves (May 6, 2002)

omen666 said:


> Fair point Rob
> 
> I thought about the Civic Type R as another option, anyone got thoughts on that?


I think that any of the Type R Hondas would be big fun on track. There's something hugely satisfying about an engine with shopping docility that turns into a screamer at high revs. My choice would be a UK model Integra, thus avoiding the lower octane fuel issues as Mr P suggests.

_EVO, May 2000 www.evo.co.uk
"The original feisty front-drive coupe, with a jewel-like 1.8-litre VTEC 'four' and benchmark handling. The Type-R concept at its very best. You would never believe a front-drive car could possess as much poise and adjustability as the Integra Type R. A 1.8 engine that develops a searing 187bhp at 8000rpm, Honda has to be smiling. It makes 106bhp/litre. It also makes the best noise of any four pot in production."_


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## kmpowell (May 6, 2002)

b3ves said:


> My choice would be a UK model Integra, thus avoiding the lower octane fuel issues as Mr P suggests.
> 
> _EVO, May 2000 www.evo.co.uk
> "The original feisty front-drive coupe, with a jewel-like 1.8-litre VTEC 'four' and benchmark handling. The Type-R concept at its very best. You would never believe a front-drive car could possess as much poise and adjustability as the Integra Type R. A 1.8 engine that develops a searing 187bhp at 8000rpm, Honda has to be smiling. It makes 106bhp/litre. It also makes the best noise of any four pot in production."_


That quote from EVO is defo in reference to a DC2 

Anyways, there are examples of DC2's and DC5's on the pistonheads classifieds:

One of the last DC2's
An example of a DC5

If you can live with the dated cabin and get an unmolested example, a DC2 is a sound choice. I still think a DC5 would be a bad move unless you know a way round the Octane Issues, especially as you will be thrashing her on a track.


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## Stu-Oxfordshire (May 7, 2002)

17K for a DC5 is senseless in my opinion, in the context of this thread. DC2 offers value, but fwd purely as a track car? Sorry, doesn;t make sense to me. If it had to be a daily runner as well as a track car then yes, but not on it's own, especially when you can get a sub 20K Evo VII for 13K and a VX220 Turbo for 16K....


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## head_ed (Dec 10, 2002)

Yeah, I p/xed mine for my current TT.

It was in great nick, but had 105, 000 miles on the clock - engine never missed a beat in the near 2 years I had it. I had no troubles with it at all come to think of it!
8)


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## b3ves (May 6, 2002)

Stu-Oxfordshire said:


> 17K for a DC5 is senseless in my opinion, in the context of this thread. DC2 offers value, but fwd purely as a track car? Sorry, doesn;t make sense to me. If it had to be a daily runner as well as a track car then yes.....





omen666 said:


> My biggest challenge will be persuading my wife to use it as her everyday car!


 :?


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## Stu-Oxfordshire (May 7, 2002)

b3ves said:


> Stu-Oxfordshire said:
> 
> 
> > 17K for a DC5 is senseless in my opinion, in the context of this thread. DC2 offers value, but fwd purely as a track car? Sorry, doesn;t make sense to me. If it had to be a daily runner as well as a track car then yes.....
> ...


Well why did you suggest it in the first place you ass?  :wink:


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## omen666 (Oct 10, 2004)

Been to look at an Evo VII, she wasn't keen.

The styling not to her taste. Put I haven't given up yet :wink: successful campaign's take a bit of time :wink:

Stu, are you going to Cadwell March 11th? I was thinking of going along to observe and maybe blag a passenger ride.


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## HighTT (Feb 14, 2004)

omen666 said:


> I enquired which would be best suited to be track prep'd but still usable on the road. they said there was nothing in it and the main difference between the two is nothing, driver skill would make up for any performance gaps.


 'driver skill' :? :?: With all that computing power combined
with 4WD, IMO it's not really needed - and, watching the driving attitude
of most Japanese Turbo Nutter Barge owners at Track Days, it's just not there :x 
Slightly 'Off Topic' Rant Over (and Nomex suit on)


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## omen666 (Oct 10, 2004)

HighTT said:


> 'driver skill' :? :?: With all that computing power combined
> with 4WD, IMO it's not really needed - and, watching the driving attitude
> of most Japanese Turbo Nutter Barge owners at Track Days, it's just not there :x
> Slightly 'Off Topic' Rant Over (and Nomex suit on)


Popcorn Rob? I'll have slightly salted and a Diet Coke please :wink:

[smiley=argue.gif] would be so easy to post a link to this thread on MLR! :twisted:


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

scoTTy said:


> omen666 said:
> 
> 
> > I think the Evo is looking favourite....
> ...


Ahem. So just point [3] to get for a full house then! :roll:


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## omen666 (Oct 10, 2004)

Looks that way, another wager you won!

Did you ever get your money from the last bet?


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

:lol:


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