# Peter Spencer (peter-ss) Standing for Club Secretary



## peter-ss

Following the recent debates that I've been involved in, regarding the TTOC Committee, I have decided to show my commitment to the club by standing for the position of Club Secretary.

*If elected my main objectives will be*
To minute all Committee meetings and publish them in a timely manner
To keep the printed version of absoluTTe magazine (providing that it remains financially viable)
To promote transparency within the club and involve the members in decision making
To help maintain a good working relationship between Committee Members

*I feel that I am a good candidate for this position as*
I Can work with any of the existing Committee (my appointment wouldn't be	conditional on the appointment of others)
I have a professional approach, which will portray a good image of the club
I am open minded and am able to see other peoples point of view
I have good attention to detail and the tenacity to see things through to conclusion

If you have any questions, or require any further information, then please feel free to reply to this post or send me a Private Message.


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## Gazzer

Top man Peter!!! You have my vote for certain sir.


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## phodge

What makes you think we should vote for you if you can't follow the instructions for nominating yourself?


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## peter-ss

I have followed the instructions but have also posted on here.


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## phodge

Nem said:


> What they have (...submitted their wish to be a candidate...) they will be collated and on June 21st a thread for each committee position will be posted on the members area showing each candidate and their proposal and will all members to vote on their choice of person for each committee position.


So why do you think that you can jump the gun and post your manifesto early? Are you really that important? Do you believe that the rules don't apply to you?

And if you do, how does that make you a good Club Secretary?


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## Hoggy

phodge said:


> Nem said:
> 
> 
> 
> What they have (...submitted their wish to be a candidate...) they will be collated and on June 21st a thread for each committee position will be posted on the members area showing each candidate and their proposal and will all members to vote on their choice of person for each committee position.
> 
> 
> 
> So why do you think that you can jump the gun and post your manifesto early? Are you really that important? Do you believe that the rules don't apply to you?
> 
> And if you do, how does that make you a good Club Secretary?
Click to expand...

Hi, Here we go again.  :roll: 
Hoggy.


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## phodge

I'm sorry if you think I'm having a go Hoggy. As far as I'm concerned they are reasonable questions.

You'll notice my absence on all the other topics regarding the future of the club. I haven't come down on one side or the other in public. Peter has put himself forward for a club position and invited questions. These are the questions I wish to ask in order to decide whether to vote for him or not.


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## Gazzer

phodge said:


> I'm sorry if you think I'm having a go Hoggy. As far as I'm concerned they are reasonable questions.
> 
> You'll notice my absence on all the other topics regarding the future of the club. I haven't come down on one side or the other in public. Peter has put himself forward for a club position and invited questions. These are the questions I wish to ask in order to decide whether to vote for him or not.


He does have the right to nominate himself 12 months ahead of time if he feels he is a better candidate penny. Doesn't make him important lol. But he is a more reasoned thinker than the current secretary without any snide comments or attacks. I have met Peter once, but if you follow his posts you can see a logical thinking process......find a problem and then find a solution.


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## phodge

I've met him a number of times, and found him to be a reasonable chap. But that isn't what I'm asking.


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## peter-ss

Hi Penny,

I didn't know about there being a thread for each Committee position being posted on the members area. I understood, from Nick's thread (below), that there is going to be seven days to vote and thought I'd post my manifesto in plenty of time, prior to the voting period.

I have already sent my proposal through to the Committee as instructed.



Nem said:


> *Committee Elections and Voting:*
> 
> All members wishing to stand for a committee position need to send in their proposal of position along with a brief statement with why they wish to stand and any supporting information and include a TTOC members details to second this proposal. This need to be sent via email to [email protected] no later than Friday June 14th to allow all requests to be processed. On Friday June 21st the voting will open on the Members Area to allow all members 7 days to cast their votes. Voting will close at midnight Friday June 28th, the day before the AGM.


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## phodge

So, let me get this straight. You have nominated yourself as you wish to stand for a committee post. You care passionately about the TTOC and it's membership. You feel you can do a better job than the current post holder. Am I correct so far?

And yet, you haven't read and understood the current posts in the TTOC section of TTF.

You've posted your manifesto on the TTF despite knowing that voting will take place on the TTOC forum. Why?

I'm not having a go at you personally Peter, I'm just trying to understand your thinking on this.


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## A3DFU

Penny, 
Nick's post only states that candidates need to inform the committee no later than 14th June.
It then carries on to say the voting will start on 21st June. 
Nowhere in between those two sentences (or anywhere else in the original post) does it say explicitly that candidates must keep quiet until 21st June and not post their intentions openly (my asterisks **)



Nem said:


> This need to be sent via email to [email protected] no later than Friday June 14th to allow all requests to be processed. ** On Friday June 21st the voting will open on the Members Area


I think civilised open debate is always good


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## Gazzer

phodge said:


> So, let me get this straight. You have nominated yourself as you wish to stand for a committee post. You care passionately about the TTOC and it's membership. You feel you can do a better job than the current post holder. Am I correct so far?
> 
> And yet, you haven't read and understood the current posts in the TTOC section of TTF.
> 
> You've posted your manifesto on the TTF despite knowing that voting will take place on the TTOC forum. Why?
> 
> I'm not having a go at you personally Peter, I'm just trying to understand your thinking on this.


Morning Penny, (suns shining roof down and at work)

if you think about it, the majority of the membership use here not the TTOC forum. so by Peter posting on here also he is just making sure that he has a better coverage and informing the larger majority of members of his intensions.


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## peter-ss

phodge said:


> So, let me get this straight. You have nominated yourself as you wish to stand for a committee post. You care passionately about the TTOC and it's membership. You feel you can do a better job than the current post holder. Am I correct so far?


Yes.



phodge said:


> You've posted your manifesto on the TTF despite knowing that voting will take place on the TTOC forum. Why?


Because I knew that I would get greater exposure on the ********.


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## wja96

peter-ss said:


> Following the recent debates that I've been involved in, regarding the TTOC Committee, I have decided to show my commitment to the club by standing for the position of Club Secretary.
> 
> *If elected my main objectives will be*
> To minute all Committee meetings and publish them in a timely manner
> To keep the printed version of absoluTTe magazine (providing that it remains financially viable)
> To promote transparency within the club and involve the members in decision making
> To help maintain a good working relationship between Committee Members
> 
> *I feel that I am a good candidate for this position as*
> I Can work with any of the existing Committee (my appointment wouldn't be	conditional on the appointment of others)
> I have a professional approach, which will portray a good image of the club
> I am open minded and am able to see other peoples point of view
> I have good attention to detail and the tenacity to see things through to conclusion
> 
> If you have any questions, or require any further information, then please feel free to reply to this post or send me a Private Message.


Hi Peter, I think it's great that someone such as yourself is putting yourself forward as I believe through word and deed you have long shown yourself to be a committed member of the TTOC.

And that's why you shouldn't stand if I'm being honest.

Your manifesto statement is basically no improvement on what we have now. Your personal attributes are the truth, I've met you at least once and you're a great chap, but how are you going to make it better? I think everyone accepts there must be a change, but you seem to be saying I'm going to keep it like it was. Even with the old editor?

I'm sorry, but going back to how it was isn't an option. Is that actually what you want, or is there something more you feel you can offer?


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## phope

My understanding of the nomination process (not that I've actually had much involvement in it) was that nominations from interested parties for the post that they were interested in standing for + a seconder were to be submitted to the committee email address by June 14th

When all nominations had been collected for the various positions, all would then be posted on the TTOC members area on the 21st for voting, so each candidate would have had an equal opportunity to present their case and for members to decide by electronic vote/agm vote for their preference

This is no disrespect to Peter (met him once, decent guy) but kinda feel he's jumped the gun...


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## peter-ss

wja96 said:


> Your manifesto statement is basically no improvement on what we have now. Your personal attributes are the truth, I've met you at least once and you're a great chap, but how are you going to make it better?


My main intention is to carry out the Club Secretary's duties as outlined in the Constitution.

_"The Club Secretary shall be required:
i. To organise and give due notice of all business meetings of the Club
ii. To attend, wherever possible, all business meetings of the Club and its
Committee and record accurate minutes of the proceedings
iii. To oversee the general smooth running of the Club"_

I intend to make an improvement by regularly publishing Committee Meeting minutes, which I feel is one of the most important roles of a Club Secretary.


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## wja96

peter-ss said:


> wja96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your manifesto statement is basically no improvement on what we have now. Your personal attributes are the truth, I've met you at least once and you're a great chap, but how are you going to make it better?
> 
> 
> 
> My main intention is to carry out the Club Secretary's duties as outlined in the Constitution.
> 
> _"The Club Secretary shall be required:
> i. To organise and give due notice of all business meetings of the Club
> ii. To attend, wherever possible, all business meetings of the Club and its
> Committee and record accurate minutes of the proceedings
> iii. To oversee the general smooth running of the Club"_
> 
> I intend to make an improvement by regularly publishing Committee Meeting minutes, which I feel is one of the most important roles of a Club Secretary.
Click to expand...

Errr... Did you miss iii?

To oversee the general smooth running of the club. I think that sort of dwarfs the publishing of the minutes, no?


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## jamman

Bet you wish you hadnt said anything now Peter jesus attack attack attack. (followed of course by the original meet him he's a good bloke)

Good luck with it you have always struck me as a helpful level headed type of guy.


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## jamman

wja96 said:


> peter-ss said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wja96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your manifesto statement is basically no improvement on what we have now. Your personal attributes are the truth, I've met you at least once and you're a great chap, but how are you going to make it better?
> 
> 
> 
> My main intention is to carry out the Club Secretary's duties as outlined in the Constitution.
> 
> _"The Club Secretary shall be required:
> i. To organise and give due notice of all business meetings of the Club
> ii. To attend, wherever possible, all business meetings of the Club and its
> Committee and record accurate minutes of the proceedings
> iii. To oversee the general smooth running of the Club"_
> 
> I intend to make an improvement by regularly publishing Committee Meeting minutes, which I feel is one of the most important roles of a Club Secretary.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Errr... Did you miss iii?
> 
> To oversee the general smooth running of the club. I think that sort of dwarfs the publishing of the minutes, no?
Click to expand...

No not at all I would consider a Club Secs duties to be in just that order :roll:

Part iii is every committee members aim part i and ii is the club secs responsibility no ?


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## Ikon66

jamman said:


> Bet you wish you hadnt said anything now Peter jesus attack attack attack. (followed of course by the original meet him he's a good bloke)
> 
> Good luck with it you have always struck me as a helpful level headed type of guy.


 [smiley=stupid.gif] [smiley=stupid.gif]


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## wja96

jamman said:


> Bet you wish you hadnt said anything now Peter jesus attack attack attack. (followed of course by the original meet him he's a good bloke)
> 
> Good luck with it you have always struck me as a helpful level headed type of guy.


He may as well get used to it. If he gets elected he's going to be getting criticised 24/7. He may as well face up to it now rather than later. Or maybe he's missed the constant criticism of ALL committee members of all committees ever.

The fact is that everyone on the committee is a nice person with a TT. But strangely, that's not enough...


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## wja96

jamman said:


> wja96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> peter-ss said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wja96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your manifesto statement is basically no improvement on what we have now. Your personal attributes are the truth, I've met you at least once and you're a great chap, but how are you going to make it better?
> 
> 
> 
> My main intention is to carry out the Club Secretary's duties as outlined in the Constitution.
> 
> _"The Club Secretary shall be required:
> i. To organise and give due notice of all business meetings of the Club
> ii. To attend, wherever possible, all business meetings of the Club and its
> Committee and record accurate minutes of the proceedings
> iii. To oversee the general smooth running of the Club"_
> 
> I intend to make an improvement by regularly publishing Committee Meeting minutes, which I feel is one of the most important roles of a Club Secretary.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Errr... Did you miss iii?
> 
> To oversee the general smooth running of the club. I think that sort of dwarfs the publishing of the minutes, no?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No not at all I would consider a Club Secs duties to be in just that order :roll:
> 
> Part iii is every committee members aim part i and ii is the club secs responsibility no ?
Click to expand...

I think you've mistaken Club Secretary for the sort of secretarial thing. The Secretary and the Treasurer are the two legal entities on the committee. The Secretary is responsible for the smooth running of the club.


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## glslang

wja96 said:


> He may as well get used to it. If he gets elected he's going to be getting criticised 24/7. He may as well face up to it now rather than later. Or maybe he's missed the constant criticism of ALL committee members of all committees ever.
> 
> The fact is that everyone on the committee is a nice person with a TT. But strangely, that's not enough...


Well, it is to me. See nothing wrong with other people putting themselves forward. I do agree with you that it takes time and real commitment to carry club duties. And we all get criticised at work for example (sometime good and sometimes bad). I eagerly wait for the result of the election in the hope that people can settle differences and move forward.


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## wja96

glslang said:


> wja96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> He may as well get used to it. If he gets elected he's going to be getting criticised 24/7. He may as well face up to it now rather than later. Or maybe he's missed the constant criticism of ALL committee members of all committees ever.
> 
> The fact is that everyone on the committee is a nice person with a TT. But strangely, that's not enough...
> 
> 
> 
> Well, it is to me. See nothing wrong with other people putting themselves forward. I do agree with you that it takes time and real commitment to carry club duties. And we all get criticised at work for example (sometime good and sometimes bad). I eagerly wait for the result of the election in the hope that people can settle differences and move forward.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, but it's not enough to be a nice person. There are lots of nice people in the world that couldn't run a committee, some of them couldn't be trusted to run a bath. I'm not saying Peter is one of them, but he's obviously unaware of what the club secretary does when the extent of his vision is to get the minutes out fast.

Please be honest with yourself and answer the question; Are you content with the club? Do you want a committee that will move the club forward, or a committee that will let the club stay somewhere in the late 20th century?

You may not like what the current committee has done, certainly you may not like how they have done it, but change was needed and they have at least started that process.


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## glslang

wja96 said:


> I'm sorry, but it's not enough to be a nice person. There are lots of nice people in the world that couldn't run a committee, some of them couldn't be trusted to run a bath. I'm not saying Peter is one of them, but he's obviously unaware of what the club secretary does when the extent of his vision is to get the minutes out fast.
> 
> Please be honest with yourself and answer the question; Are you content with the club? Do you want a committee that will move the club forward, or a committee that will let the club stay somewhere in the late 20th century?
> 
> You may not like what the current committee has done, certainly you may not like how they have done it, but change was needed and they have at least started that process.


Didn't mean to come across as taking sides. I'm not. I'm not privy to all that has been going on. My TT ownership isn't conditional on the TTOC existing either. And I'm also not disagreeing with you. I just think it's important that other people put themselves forward regardless as a means to create difference and debate (not conflict). I don't have a grand vision on what the TTOC should do next. I'm not unhappy with it either. And I couldn't care less about the meeting minutes.

I can only support it with my membership and participant in events when time permits, or in a capacity that is useful to it (taking pics and making them available for example if I happen to be around). And this support is towards the club not the individuals.

Again I wasn't trying to show support to anyone in particular.


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## peter-ss

wja96 said:


> peter-ss said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wja96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your manifesto statement is basically no improvement on what we have now. Your personal attributes are the truth, I've met you at least once and you're a great chap, but how are you going to make it better?
> 
> 
> 
> My main intention is to carry out the Club Secretary's duties as outlined in the Constitution.
> 
> _"The Club Secretary shall be required:
> i. To organise and give due notice of all business meetings of the Club
> ii. To attend, wherever possible, all business meetings of the Club and its
> Committee and record accurate minutes of the proceedings
> *iii. To oversee the general smooth running of the Club*"_
> 
> I intend to make an improvement by regularly publishing Committee Meeting minutes, which I feel is one of the most important roles of a Club Secretary.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Errr... Did you miss iii?
Click to expand...

No, which is why I listed it.


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## Gazzer

wja96 said:


> jamman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bet you wish you hadnt said anything now Peter jesus attack attack attack. (followed of course by the original meet him he's a good bloke)
> 
> Good luck with it you have always struck me as a helpful level headed type of guy.
> 
> 
> 
> He may as well get used to it. If he gets elected he's going to be getting criticised 24/7. He may as well face up to it now rather than later. Or maybe he's missed the constant criticism of ALL committee members of all committees ever.
> 
> The fact is that everyone on the committee is a nice person with a TT. But strangely, that's not enough...
Click to expand...

the committee now don't get criticised 24/7 as far as i am aware? none of the committee problems were really evident until John was evicted illegally and in doing so ALL of the little problems and WHOPPERS came out.....laid bare for all to see. i have personally pm'd Nick recently over what i thought could be an issue rather than putting it publicly on the forum. there has been too many problems and accusations over the last few months that has to STOP. the only true way to make it stop is to ensure those things can never happen again! if that means changes need to take place then so be it.


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## wja96

peter-ss said:


> wja96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> peter-ss said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wja96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your manifesto statement is basically no improvement on what we have now. Your personal attributes are the truth, I've met you at least once and you're a great chap, but how are you going to make it better?
> 
> 
> 
> My main intention is to carry out the Club Secretary's duties as outlined in the Constitution.
> 
> _"The Club Secretary shall be required:
> i. To organise and give due notice of all business meetings of the Club
> ii. To attend, wherever possible, all business meetings of the Club and its
> Committee and record accurate minutes of the proceedings
> *iii. To oversee the general smooth running of the Club*"_
> 
> I intend to make an improvement by regularly publishing Committee Meeting minutes, which I feel is one of the most important roles of a Club Secretary.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Errr... Did you miss iii?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No, which is why I listed it.
Click to expand...

But you think the main way you can improve the club is getting the minutes out faster?

So you don't think you can improve the smooth running of the club?


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## peter-ss

wja96 said:


> But you think the main way you can improve the club is getting the minutes out faster?


No but regularly posting the meeting minutes will make the club more transparent and hopefully avoid a repeat of recent events.



wja96 said:


> So you don't think you can improve the smooth running of the club?


I do think that I can improve the smooth running of the club by helping maintain a good working relationship between Committee members, as stated in my manifesto.


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## wja96

peter-ss said:


> wja96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> But you think the main way you can improve the club is getting the minutes out faster?
> 
> 
> 
> No but regularly posting the meeting minutes will make the club more transparent and hopefully avoid a repeat of recent events.
> 
> 
> 
> wja96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So you don't think you can improve the smooth running of the club?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I do think that I can improve the smooth running of the club by helping maintain a good working relationship between Committee members, as stated in my manifesto.
Click to expand...

But they already have a good working relationship now the people who didn't understand democracy and resigned are gone. Or do you think that by replacing a perfectly good Secretary with a reasonable track record, who works just fine with the others, you'll somehow be a better fit in the team?

I'm really not sure you've thought this through. You've only been a candidate less than 24 hours and already it's been demonstrated that you have no policies or plans for improvement. Indeed, I think you're only doing it to cause trouble.

Were you one on the people who were calling for an EGM earlier in the year?


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## wja96

Gazzer said:


> wja96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jamman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bet you wish you hadnt said anything now Peter jesus attack attack attack. (followed of course by the original meet him he's a good bloke)
> 
> Good luck with it you have always struck me as a helpful level headed type of guy.
> 
> 
> 
> He may as well get used to it. If he gets elected he's going to be getting criticised 24/7. He may as well face up to it now rather than later. Or maybe he's missed the constant criticism of ALL committee members of all committees ever.
> 
> The fact is that everyone on the committee is a nice person with a TT. But strangely, that's not enough...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> the committee now don't get criticised 24/7 as far as i am aware? none of the committee problems were really evident until John was evicted illegally and in doing so ALL of the little problems and WHOPPERS came out.....laid bare for all to see. i have personally pm'd Nick recently over what i thought could be an issue rather than putting it publicly on the forum. there has been too many problems and accusations over the last few months that has to STOP. the only true way to make it stop is to ensure those things can never happen again! if that means changes need to take place then so be it.
Click to expand...

But surely all the problems in the committee have now stopped. The entire current committee are absolutely united behind the Chair as far as I can tell. As for calling people liars, do bear in mind that everything posted on the Internet is reviewable by everyone, so people can make their own minds up who the liars are. I seem to recall that you were caught out yourself recently over something to do with club membership status or something? Telling people who weren't members they were?


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## Mark Davies

I see little wrong with Peter declaring here that he plans to stand. It gives everyone the opportunity to question him on how he plans to do the job and helps the members make up their minds. He's not trying to give himself an advantage - everyone who wants to stand can do exactly the same if they want to. And yes, it make some sense to do it here rather than the TTOC forum because more people will see it. It's being prepared to stand up and be counted, which is by no means a bad thing. I think it's a bit harsh to be criticising him for essentially just being open and upfront. Ihope everyone else does the same.

On a more general note I think the events of this year have somewhat over-emphasised the importance of the committee. The last one became almost entirely dysfunctional, unable to do anything - and yet the Club didn't collapse and cease to function, did it? Some things didn't quite run to time but EvenTT is happening as are the rest of the summer's activities. Yes, there needs to be a committee as there is a certain amount of administration that needs doing, but let's not get overly-fanciful about it. A club secretary doesn't need to be some kind of holy, evangelical saviour - it simply needs to be someone who can do those duties competently without causing chaos amongst the rest of the team. And frankly much the same goes for almost every other position. The only potential exception would perhaps be the position of chair, where a certain amount of leadership is needed at the moment - but that's a debate for a different thread.


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## peter-ss

wja96 said:


> But they already have a good working relationship now the people who didn't understand democracy and resigned are gone. Or do you think that by replacing a perfectly good Secretary with a reasonable track record, who works just fine with the others, you'll somehow be a better fit in the team?


Sara has clearly stated that she can not work with certain people but if I was to win the vote there would be no such issue.



wja96 said:


> I'm really not sure you've thought this through. You've only been a candidate less than 24 hours and already it's been demonstrated that you have no policies or plans for improvement. Indeed, I think you're only doing it to cause trouble.


You are, of course, entitled to your opinion but I can assure you that I have thought this through. My policies and plans for improvement are outlined in my manifesto.

When I attended Nick's last local meet he invited any of us interested in being on the Committee to apply.



wja96 said:


> Were you one on the people who were calling for an EGM earlier in the year?


Yes - I was one of the few people who didn't back track on the EGM once it went public.


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## burns

Peter, I really did think better of you than this. You're campaigning on the basis of preparing prompt minutes and suggesting that that would be a change to the current standard. However, all minutes since I was elected in July last year HAVE been prepared promptly, with the exception of some recent ones, for personal reasons. As I explained to you, publicly on another thread, I went through a very tough time which impacted upon my committee role. At the risk of repeating myself, my aunty was admitted to hospital with a broken hip. After six weeks in hospital she died. There was a post mortem and a delayed funeral as a consequence. I will be the solicitor representing my family's interests at the inquest on 18 June. With all that going on (and some ill-health myself) I fell behind with the preparation of some of the minutes. As soon as you requested them, I cancelled my Friday evening plans and typed up the missing minutes. They were posted by Nick in the minutes section of the TTOC forum the same night. You know all of this perfectly well and even apologised to me. Yet you now see fit to use it against me in order to score points.

Notwithstanding all this going on in my private life, I have attended every single committee meeting that has taken place since the AGM last year, even cancelling plans at short notice on numerous occasions in order to do so.

As for working relationships, I get along with the current committee members without issue. The club continues to run and we have a strong team. We have been working hard, as a team, in order to bring your EvenTT together and make it enjoyable for all who attend. Whatever the outcome of the vote, I know that we have done all we possibly can to make sure that the weekend runs smoothly and is a fantastic experience for all.


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## wja96

peter-ss said:


> Sara has clearly stated that she can not work with certain people but if I was to win the vote there would be no such issue.


I see. So you're standing so Burns won't get elected so that when the rest of the committee get voted off it will be fine and Burns won't have to pack it in because she won't work with John-H who apparently was genuinely, utterly, horrible to her? Wow! I'm surprised you can sleep at night.



peter-ss said:


> You are, of course, entitled to your opinion but I can assure you that I have thought this through. My policies and plans for improvement are outlined in my manifesto.


You don't have a manifesto. You have said you'll do what the constitution calls for. Do you understand the responsibilities of being club Secretary? It's actually quite a big responsibility. But I know that you'll always get the minutes out on time. That other little bit about running the club legally is just a thing you'll do as well...



wja96 said:


> Were you one on the people who were calling for an EGM earlier in the year?


Yes - I was one of the few people who didn't back track on the EGM once it went public.[/quote]

I thought so. I'll see you at the AGM hopefully. Good luck with your campaign.


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## wja96

Mark Davies said:


> I see little wrong with Peter declaring here that he plans to stand. It gives everyone the opportunity to question him on how he plans to do the job and helps the members make up their minds. He's not trying to give himself an advantage - everyone who wants to stand can do exactly the same if they want to. And yes, it make some sense to do it here rather than the TTOC forum because more people will see it. It's being prepared to stand up and be counted, which is by no means a bad thing. I think it's a bit harsh to be criticising him for essentially just being open and upfront. Ihope everyone else does the same.
> 
> On a more general note I think the events of this year have somewhat over-emphasised the importance of the committee. The last one became almost entirely dysfunctional, unable to do anything - and yet the Club didn't collapse and cease to function, did it? Some things didn't quite run to time but EvenTT is happening as are the rest of the summer's activities. Yes, there needs to be a committee as there is a certain amount of administration that needs doing, but let's not get overly-fanciful about it. A club secretary doesn't need to be some kind of holy, evangelical saviour - it simply needs to be someone who can do those duties competently without causing chaos amongst the rest of the team. And frankly much the same goes for almost every other position. The only potential exception would perhaps be the position of chair, where a certain amount of leadership is needed at the moment - but that's a debate for a different thread.


I have no issue with Peter declaring. He's getting a taste of what it could be like if he gets elected. The club Secretary has various legal responsibilities, as does the Treasurer. The Chair, in contrast, is just a figurehead in law. I worry that Peter-SS doesn't quite understand what he's taking on given that he's stated the most important job of the Secretary is getting the minutes out sharpish.

I know that there is a little cadre of old-timers bent on taking over the committee to return the glorious Editor to his position and get rid of the new, thoroughly rotten, committee. It's just that the people bent on taking the place over don't seem to be of a very high quality and they do seem to have only two aims; getting rid of the current committee and re-instating the former Editor, who presumably will continue to publish the magazine as he did before. Is that what the MEMBERSHIP actually want? I doubt it. I really do. The magazine was VERY widely criticised and it needed changing. The former Editor resisted to the point where the other committee members could no longer work with him and he was rather unceremoniously ditched. Now, you could argue that the ENTIRE committee should have been present when the decision was taken, but the result would have been the same.

Now we have this e-vote, with rules that they seem to be making up as they go along, because the current committee actually want a democratic mandate so badly, they have rushed in this e-voting system. I just hope whoever wins gets the complete support of they whole membership and the club can actually go forward from June 28th.


----------



## A3DFU

I agree with Mark that it is perfectly fine for Peter to state his intentions to stand for club secretary.

I know this is NOT a general election but consider this:
when do you get to know the candidates in a general election? The day the voting process starts or before that date?


----------



## wja96

A3DFU said:


> I know this is NOT a general election but consider this:
> when do you get to know the candidates in a general election? The day the voting process starts or before that date?


There is a date by which the candidates must submit their desire to stand (and deposit) to the Returning Officer. After that everyone gets the same time to campaign up to Election Day.

The same system we have in place with the TTOC I believe. You have to register as a candidate then everyone gets the same time to campaign.

I think Peter just wanted to show how fast he could get a document on the Internet. Because that's the most important thing the secretary does apparently. So we know the minutes will be out FAST if he gets in.


----------



## wja96

By the way, Peter, who is seconding you for Secretary?


----------



## peter-ss

davelincs, although other people have offered on reading this thread.


----------



## A3DFU

wja96, se my post from this morning (on page1 of this thread)



> Penny,
> Nick's post only states that candidates need to inform the committee no later than 14th June.
> It then carries on to say the voting will start on 21st June.
> Nowhere in between those two sentences (or anywhere else in the original post) does it say explicitly that candidates must keep quiet until 21st June and not post their intentions openly (my asterisks **)
> 
> Nem wrote:
> This need to be sent via email to [email protected] no later than Friday June 14th to allow all requests to be processed. ** On Friday June 21st the voting will open on the Members Area
> 
> I think civilised open debate is always good


----------



## jamman

For [email protected] same you'd have thought Peter had gone and shot the pope how some are over reacting primarily wja what's your problem we live in a democratic land hence what is happening here so go take the dog a walk and get some fresh air because you are coming across a right ***** ie who's seconding you FFS :roll:

People are allowed to stand if they want to stand and current members should try not to take it personally although I can appreciate that can be difficult.


----------



## wja96

jamman said:


> For [email protected] same you'd have thought Peter had gone and shot the pope how some are over reacting primarily wja what's your problem we live in a democratic land hence what is happening here so go take the dog a walk and get some fresh air because you are coming across a right ***** ie who's seconding you FFS :roll:
> 
> People are allowed to stand if they want to stand and current members should try not to take it personally although I can appreciate that can be difficult.


But actually, it is personal. There are people who have actually WORKED at making this club what it is. Ask John-H if he thinks it's personal. Or Nem. Or anyone who knows anyone on the committee. It's VERY personal and it's important people know where people stand on this. Basically, it's the same people who couldn't get 25 votes to mount an EGM before.

Anyone who hasn't been following this needs to know the history behind these campaigns. Peter SS, Davelincs, John-H, Gazzer and the others are a very vocal minority who are bringing the club into disrepute through the constant attacks and nastiness. They are so utterly obsessed with themselves they don't care if they damage the club. Look at John-H's last post in the voting thread on TTOC member's area. Basically, he's already running a separate club on TTF and, instead of going through channels, he's been in contact with advertisers renewing contracts. This is a person who has no authority within the TTOC anymore, but he's not concerned with that because he's not prepared to accept any view but his own. That's pretty scary, wouldn't you say?


----------



## wja96

A3DFU said:


> wja96, se my post from this morning (on page1 of this thread)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Penny,
> Nick's post only states that candidates need to inform the committee no later than 14th June.
> It then carries on to say the voting will start on 21st June.
> Nowhere in between those two sentences (or anywhere else in the original post) does it say explicitly that candidates must keep quiet until 21st June and not post their intentions openly (my asterisks **)
> 
> Nem wrote:
> This need to be sent via email to [email protected] no later than Friday June 14th to allow all requests to be processed. ** On Friday June 21st the voting will open on the Members Area
> 
> I think civilised open debate is always good
Click to expand...

I don't see your point? You asked what happens in a General Election. You get your nomination in to the returning officer by a date then you start campaigning when the returning officer says you can. That is the process the TTOC would seem to have put in place. You register your nomination by the 14th June then you start campaigning on the 21st June from the looks of it. Votes close after the AGM on the 29th and the new committee takes up their responsibilities from the 30th I would think. Who counts the votes and the announcement will be made is anyone's guess.

The nonsense surrounding PeterSS's premature announcement just re-enforces the half-baked nature of the e-voting which has NEVER been discussed as far as I can see. There is a perfectly good process already in place that involves members who actually give a toss and want to be involved turning up at the AGM and putting themselves forward. They then get voted for by other activist members who elect people they can see and hear and want to represent them.

What we have now is anyone's guess. We literally don't know how the voting will work. They have already had to modify the process once to allow people to vote at the AGM, but how will that work? We don't know and I would suggest that neither do the committee at this stage. It's certainly not the finished article. Now, you could argue that the e-voting is more democratic but the advice i have been given would suggest it's open to challenge until it's voted on by the AGM. There is nothing in the club's constitution to allow it as far as I'm aware.

The truth is pretty unpalatable. People who live in a democracy tend not value their vote. Witness the incredibly low turnouts at elections. It'll be the same here. Look at how few people are contributing in these threads. 4 or 5 people maximum. Even if you allow for the others lurking, it's not enough to call for an EGM. I'll wait and see about the voting.


----------



## peter-ss

wja96 said:


> Peter SS, Davelincs, John-H, Gazzer and the others are a very vocal minority who are bringing the club into disrepute through the constant attacks and nastiness.


I may have asked some slightly awkward or difficult to answer questions but I have never been nasty to anyone.

Sent from my GT-S5830i using Tapatalk 2


----------



## peter-ss

wja96 said:


> The nonsense surrounding PeterSS's premature announcement just re-enforces the half-baked nature of the e-voting which has NEVER been discussed as far as I can see.


In my manifesto I state that one of my objectives would be "To promote transparency within the club and involve the members in decision making" so thats another improvement that I could work on if elected.

Sent from my GT-S5830i using Tapatalk 2


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## Bartsimpsonhead

Personally I don't see anything wrong with Peter or anyone posting his/their intention to stand now or at anytime throughout the year since the last election - it gives the membership more time to consider the options.

And as to why it was posted here - well, I as a TTOC member vary rarely log-in to the TTOC website/Forum as there's usually a lot more discussions/happening on the TTF, so by posting it here (and I'm sure on the TTOC at some point) he'll be reaching far more members than he would by just posting it on the TTOC Forum (if there are more people like me?!?). The more people that do that and post on both forums the better.

Sometimes it seems like some people don't want members voting in case it upsets the status-quo...


----------



## John-H

wja96 said:


> Anyone who hasn't been following this needs to know the history behind these campaigns. Peter SS, Davelincs, John-H, Gazzer and the others are a very vocal minority who are bringing the club into disrepute through the constant attacks and nastiness. They are so utterly obsessed with themselves they don't care if they damage the club. Look at John-H's last post in the voting thread on TTOC member's area. Basically, he's already running a separate club on TTF and, instead of going through channels, he's been in contact with advertisers renewing contracts. This is a person who has no authority within the TTOC anymore, but he's not concerned with that because he's not prepared to accept any view but his own. That's pretty scary, wouldn't you say?


You are entitled to your opinion and speculatioon but I couldn't disagree more. As regards the advertising; I've supported Tyre forums in contacting the traders to manage renewal of advertising. If you remember from the EGM discussions I had given the committee the benefit of the doubt that they would support Tyre forums and do this without my help but this has not happened and time has run out. This benefits all parties.

As regards the voting process you have a point. The electronic voting, like the postal voting, is just a way of reaching more members but it needs to be auditable and transparrent and not open to question. The vote must also include the night of the AGM under the constitution.

As regards Peter declaring his intention to stand I see no problem with him telling people when and where he chooses - it's not a secret and I commend his honesty and openness. I intend to stand as editor too but I don't wish to spoil Peter's thread with discussion of this here.


----------



## Nyxx

John-H said:


> You are entitled to your opinion and speculatioon but I couldn't disagree more.


Really!
Well am also entitled to my opinion but let's just look at some facts that you would like to happen.

John back as editor
Skippy to take Nicks Job
Your good friend Peter as club SE 
Gaz as another member

Sounds nothing like jobs for the boys does it :lol:

Hhhmmmm my "speculation" is wja96 is spot on, you can disagree all you like as you are entitled to your opinion but its really not hard to see what is happening is it?
I look forward to your reply to Phope post John.


----------



## wja96

John-H said:


> wja96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone who hasn't been following this needs to know the history behind these campaigns. Peter SS, Davelincs, John-H, Gazzer and the others are a very vocal minority who are bringing the club into disrepute through the constant attacks and nastiness. They are so utterly obsessed with themselves they don't care if they damage the club. Look at John-H's last post in the voting thread on TTOC member's area. Basically, he's already running a separate club on TTF and, instead of going through channels, he's been in contact with advertisers renewing contracts. This is a person who has no authority within the TTOC anymore, but he's not concerned with that because he's not prepared to accept any view but his own. That's pretty scary, wouldn't you say?
> 
> 
> 
> You are entitled to your opinion and speculatioon but I couldn't disagree more. As regards the advertising; I've supported Tyre forums in contacting the traders to manage renewal of advertising. If you remember from the EGM discussions I had given the committee the benefit of the doubt that they would support Tyre forums and do this without my help but this has not happened and time has run out. This benefits all parties.
> 
> As regards the voting process you have a point. The electronic voting, like the postal voting, is just a way of reaching more members but it needs to be auditable and transparrent and not open to question. The vote must also include the night of the AGM under the constitution.
> 
> As regards Peter declaring his intention to stand I see no problem with him telling people when and where he chooses - it's not a secret and I commend his honesty and openness. I intend to stand as editor too but I don't wish to spoil Peter's thread with discussion of this here.
Click to expand...

But you've gone rogue. You're the whole committee in one! You didn't consult, you didn't inform, you utterly failed to communicate with ANYONE because you thought you could embarrass the current committee.

I think people who had not previously considered that the committee might actually have been justified in their actions against you are now thinking again about whether you can work with anyone as a team player.

You might mean well, and you might well have your bits covered off, but if you can't work with a team (and all the evidence to date is stacking up to say you can't) then it just won't work.

I don't see why you had to back out of the commitment you made to allow the current committee to get on with it. If you'd privately hassled them about getting this deal done then you would have had the credit for that, if they hadn't responded you could have come out publicly to shove them into doing something and then if they still did nothing you could have appealed to the community at large to get them on the case. But you didn't. You just went off and did your own thing in secret. And then you announced it randomly in a discussion thread.

Surely you can see you seriously misjudged this?


----------



## John-H

Not at all. In the EGM call I stated clearly enough:



> All the TT Forum (TTF) advertisers introduced by the club need their contract renewing imminently (well before the AGM) and if this is not done Tyre Forums will be forced to approach the sponsors directly and bypass the club, so no commission will be earned for the club from our revenue share agreement. There seems to be no enthusiasm from the Chairman for any marketing to be done by the TTOC for the TT Forum, with the apparent intention to render the advertising revenue share deal with TT Forum ineffective. He has previously stated he would rather pursue advertising for a TTOC public forum.


I've said often enough since then to others and even members of the committee. I'm not gong to do their job for them. The four were the ones who tried to remove me and deny my access claiming that they couldn't work with me there. Next you'll be telling me I should have offered to help them with the magazine from outside too. :roll:

I gave them plenty of opportunity. You claim I'm trying to embarass - what are you doing exactly trolling through the discussions? Asking Peter if he can tie his shoe laces! How do you think that comes across?



TT Law said:


> Wja96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Peter, would you care to give an opinion on the actions of John-H, as he describes them, in the Voting thread?
> 
> Given that your candidacy is pretty closely linked to the reappointment of John-H, were you aware he was negotiating contracts on behalf of the club even though he wasn't on the committee anymore?
> 
> 
> 
> I can't stay silent in this one anymore.
> 
> The contracts with TTF were set up by John. Members of the committee were aware they had lapsed and me included did nothing with them as John had always dealt with it.
> 
> You are making a simple thing into a massive issue that it is not. All John has done is chase the money for the club as part of the deal. And yes he is still the Editor as a committee member cannot be evicted by other committee members as per the constitution. John has simply been denied access to the committee forum and the magazine production taken Away from him.
> 
> Steve
Click to expand...

Well quite Steve. Nobody has ever managed to produce documentary evidence to show how I'm not a committee member. Remember what Nick said: *"I have already acknowledged that the rules were bent to hold a single sided vote to use a clause in the constitution in the way we did and as the chairman of this club I apologise for this action."* The temporary removal of my membership was declared *".. a step too far"* and rescinded. Subsequently denying me access to committee accounts and magazine production following that seems to be a special unwritten rule invented especially for me. You won't find it anywhere in the constitution. http://www.ttoc.co.uk/members/viewtopic ... &start=300

Actually I asked the traders as administrator of TTF if they wanted to renew their advertising with TTF. It opens the possibility that the club could claim the commission as I can argue that point. But if nobody is interested in supporting the TT Forum advertising then we can say that it's none of the club's business. Then it just leads me to ask why?

I made it a point on the EGM discussions that the advertisers' contracts would expire prior to the AGM and it was therefore a good reason for having an EGM because I predicted some others on the committee were not interested in supporting the TT Forum and were quite prepared to see the revenue share agreement lapse as part of a campaign to cut ties with the forum e.g. removal of TTOC market place fast track, removal of TTOC administration and moderation of TTF and the removal of "Home to the TTOC" banner from the top of the forum.

In all this time no effort has been made to manage renewal of the advertisers' contracts by the acting committee. No new sponsors have been introduced to the TT Forum through the club revenue share scheme since I was told that it was the marketing secretary's job and told to stop doing marketing after EvenTT12. Why have no more sponsors been introduced through the scheme to earn revenue for the club? Why has nobody from the acting committee managed existing TTF advertisers? Can someone please explain to members why this is being abandoned as a revenue earning responsibility?



Nem said:


> The perceived split between the TTOC and ******** is not happening. I have said in my version of events already that I think the club having it's own forum, own advertisers and fully supporting itself would be the best situation. I have said that the members area is set up and will be allowed to run and grow by itself if that happens and we will use it alongside the ********. But, no matter what my, or others, personal views on this matter, the committee is now fully in the spotlight over this issue and I can't see any way this decision could now be made without a full membership vote which given the strength of opinion about this I can't see being passed. http://www.ttoc.co.uk/members/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=464


Stealth mode spotlight on 8)


----------



## paulc1

I am willing to accept that the committee are now unlikely to split from TTF and I accept the EGM proposal is not supported here. It was out of concern for the future that I was motivated enough to speak out but now accept that my concerns may no longer be required. I am willing to give the committee the benefit of the doubt and the chance to prove themselves over the issues of producing a magazine, organising EvenTT13 and renewing advertising contracts for TTF sponsors without my help. I wish you all the best for the future.

John h , So I guess this part of your apology didnt really mean anything and was all lies to appease people as you clearly haven't left the commitee to carry on
Paulc1


----------



## John-H

paulc1 said:


> I am willing to accept that the committee are now unlikely to split from TTF and I accept the EGM proposal is not supported here. It was out of concern for the future that I was motivated enough to speak out but now accept that my concerns may no longer be required. I am willing to give the committee the benefit of the doubt and the chance to prove themselves over the issues of producing a magazine, organising EvenTT13 and renewing advertising contracts for TTF sponsors without my help. I wish you all the best for the future.
> 
> John h , So I guess this part of your apology didnt really mean anything and was all lies to appease people as you clearly haven't left the commitee to carry on
> Paulc1


Looks like I'm owed an apology over what I've highlighted.


----------



## jamman

Cat got your tongue gents :roll:

Where's the snappy responses ?


----------



## wja96

I don't think it needs a snappy response.

John-H explicitly stated that he would not interfere in TTOC committee business. He explicitly stated that he would not interfere with the renewal of those contracts. And then he did.

If he'd really wanted to help, he'd have contacted the committee reminding them it was important they did this. If they failed to move at that point he could have gone public. He didn't. He just renewed the contracts himself without telling anyone until it popped up in Gazzer's other thread where he was clearly saying "look how much money I've got for the club". Maybe so, but he went back on what he said.

So, no, no snappy responses. Just the facts.


----------



## Bartsimpsonhead

Well, as a member would like to say 'Thanks, and we'll done John' for remembering to do something for the club and its members when the rest of the committee forgot about one of the most important benefits it has to offer - saving its members money in the pursuit of our passion (oh, er! [smiley=whip.gif] [smiley=gorgeous.gif] [smiley=dude.gif] )

It's quite shameful that they've tried to heap blame on you to cover for them forgetting to renegotiate the contracts. They could at least admit their fault, say 'thanks, but we'll take it from here...' and stop blaming you for trying to save their skins.


----------



## jamman

Bartsimpsonhead said:


> Well, as a member would like to say 'Thanks, and we'll done John' for remembering to do something for the club and its members when the rest of the committee forgot about one of the most important benefits it has to offer - saving its members money in the pursuit of our passion (oh, er!).
> 
> It's quite shameful that they've tried to heaped blame on you to cover for them forgetting to renegotiate the contracts. They could at least admit their fault, say 'thanks, but we'll take it from here...' and stop blaming you for trying to save their skins.


_
Praise the lord........._ [smiley=cheers.gif]

It's not just me that is thinking this, I would like to ask the serious question of why it wasn't done in a timely manner but I just can't be bothered because of all the blinkered posts which that question will generate from a select few windbags opps sorry members.

Surely revenue and the protection of it should be the clubs number one priority no money no club :?

On a side night sorry for going off topic Peter.


----------



## Wallsendmag

I may be missing something but we haven't got any money , we don't know what John has signed us up to . We don't know what rate John has charged. We don't even know who John has contacted . If you are acting as a go between shouldn't both sides know what you are doing ?


----------



## jamman

Wallsendmag said:


> I may be missing something but we haven't got any money , we don't know what just has signed us up to . We don't know what rate John has charged. We don't even know who John has contacted . If you are acting as a go between shouldn't both sides know what you are doing ?


Andrew without a doubt there's fault on both sides here my man that's for sure. 

It's such a pity people can't all pull in the same direction for the mutual benefit of the club.


----------



## Nyxx

Wallsendmag said:


> I may be missing something but we haven't got any money , we don't know what John has signed us up to . We don't know what rate John has charged. We don't even know who John has contacted . If you are acting as a go between shouldn't both sides know what you are doing ?


Look at the post on the TTOC forums.

Bart, all I can say ATM is if only you know.


----------



## Spandex

Wallsendmag said:


> I may be missing something but we haven't got any money , we don't know what John has signed us up to . We don't know what rate John has charged. We don't even know who John has contacted . If you are acting as a go between shouldn't both sides know what you are doing ?


Chances are, he's got you more than the £0 you'd have got yourselves if you were left to your own devices though, right? Lets be honest, the advertising deal *should be* a massively important thing for the TTOC, so the only reason for them to drag their feet is so they could 'accidentally' miss the deadline and thus remove the only barrier to the split they've always wanted.

I'm glad I'm not a TTOC member, otherwise I'd be finding this fiasco annoying, rather than hilarious... :lol:


----------



## Nyxx

jamman said:


> because of all the blinkered posts which that question will generate from a select few windbags opps sorry members.


Remember, we can all agree or disagree but we all only come here because of our love for a TT be it a MKI or II and when this matter is all over. It would be nice for us all to get along. No silly single fingers or finger pointing.

I just wish the "vote" had been done write and all this would have never happened but hey :?


----------



## Bartsimpsonhead

I would have thought the money would be somewhere between (900 members x £15 web membership =) £13,500 up to (900 x £35 Premium membership =) £31,500, minus the cost of printing the magazine, postage, event raffle prizes, etc, etc...

I don't believe there's NO money in the Club account!?! And if so - where's it all gone? The statement of accounts from the Club Treasurer at the AGM will make interesting reading.


----------



## Nyxx

We all know where it went once

Rockingham [smiley=oops.gif]


----------



## Bartsimpsonhead

Rockingham? Don't know that story - probably before my time - any clues/links to past threads?


----------



## Nyxx

It was well before my time Bart, just a story i was told, think it was years ago but was a funny story. But at the time it might not have been.


----------



## MonTheFish

That would have been the event that would have bankrupt the club if certain members of the committee hadn't thrown their own money in to keep it afloat....Nick being one of them....and I'm not talking about a couple of hundred quid either......


----------



## rustyintegrale

MonTheFish said:


> That would have been the event that would have bankrupt the club if certain members of the committee hadn't thrown their own money in to keep it afloat....Nick being one of them....and I'm not talking about a couple of hundred quid either......


To the then committee's credit it was also a good event. Just a shame the promised traders didn't turn up as expected.


----------



## Nyxx

Rusty,
So how many of the committee stuck there own money in the pot?

Mon said Nick did, who else....

wow that really is very commendable.


----------



## Wallsendmag

Bartsimpsonhead said:


> I would have thought the money would be somewhere between (900 members x £15 web membership =) £13,500 up to (900 x £35 Premium membership =) £31,500, minus the cost of printing the magazine, postage, event raffle prizes, etc, etc...
> 
> I don't believe there's NO money in the Club account!?! And if so - where's it all gone? The statement of accounts from the Club Treasurer at the AGM will make interesting reading.


Plenty of money in the club at the moment in fact the most since before Rockingham that's how we can afford to only charge £5 to get into Gaydon . Using the club funds at the event of the year where it impacts the greatest number of members. 
ps the Magazine cost about £3k per issue  I was one of the others to put their money where their mouth was . It had to be done to keep the club afloat.


----------



## rustyintegrale

Nyxx said:


> Rusty,
> So how many of the committee stuck there own money in the pot?
> 
> Mon said Nick did, who else....
> 
> wow that really is very commendable.


I know of at least 3 for sure. But don't quote me on that.

Rockingham was a fabulous venue and deserved to be a success but unfortunately these events are judged on past performance. People often travel a long way and if the show doesn't deliver then they're not gonna go again are they?


----------



## MonTheFish

Nyxx said:


> Rusty,
> So how many of the committee stuck there own money in the pot?
> 
> Mon said Nick did, who else....
> 
> wow that really is very commendable.


Rob was on the committee at the time and was also in for a sizeable amount. I do remember 4 figure numbers being passed about by members at the time. I'm sure it was all documented at a subsequent AGM.


----------



## Nyxx

So without these 4 people we would not have a TTOC?


----------



## Wallsendmag

Nyxx said:


> So without these 4 people we would not have a TTOC?


No and it wasn't a short term loan either .


----------



## Wallsendmag

rustyintegrale said:


> Nyxx said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rusty,
> So how many of the committee stuck there own money in the pot?
> 
> Mon said Nick did, who else....
> 
> wow that really is very commendable.
> 
> 
> 
> I know of at least 3 for sure. But don't quote me on that.
> 
> Rockingham was a fabulous venue and deserved to be a success but unfortunately these events are judged on past performance. People often travel a long way and if the show doesn't deliver then they're not gonna go again are they?
Click to expand...

To me Rockingham wasn't as good as the field by the lake in deepest darkest Yorkshire it just lacked atmosphere unlike Rother Valley where people could chat all day , mind you the lightning at the end was scary .


----------



## MonTheFish

To be blunt the club was financially finished after that event. It would have been dead if it wasn't for people paying for things out of their own pocket (for example these people paid for the subsequent magazine runs out of their own pockets @ 3k a pop) to keep the club running.

Maybe people should bare this in mind if questioning people's commitment to the club.


----------



## jamman

Wallsendmag said:


> mind you the lightning at the end was scary .


Pussy :-*


----------



## rustyintegrale

Wallsendmag said:


> rustyintegrale said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nyxx said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rusty,
> So how many of the committee stuck there own money in the pot?
> 
> Mon said Nick did, who else....
> 
> wow that really is very commendable.
> 
> 
> 
> I know of at least 3 for sure. But don't quote me on that.
> 
> Rockingham was a fabulous venue and deserved to be a success but unfortunately these events are judged on past performance. People often travel a long way and if the show doesn't deliver then they're not gonna go again are they?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> To me Rockingham wasn't as good as the field by the lake in deepest darkest Yorkshire it just lacked atmosphere unlike Rother Valley where people could chat all day , mind you the lightning at the end was scary .
Click to expand...

Before my time I think. I liked Rockingham for the track and the parade thing at the end. It just gave something for people to do.


----------



## Wallsendmag

jamman said:


> Wallsendmag said:
> 
> 
> 
> mind you the lightning at the end was scary .
> 
> 
> 
> Pussy :-*
Click to expand...

I was dismantling a tent at the time , You've never seen me drop a tent pole so quickly.


----------



## rustyintegrale

MonTheFish said:


> To be blunt the club was financially finished after that event. It would have been dead if it wasn't for people paying for things out of their own pocket (for example these people paid for the subsequent magazine runs out of their own pockets @ 3k a pop) to keep the club running.
> 
> Maybe people should bare this in mind if questioning people's commitment to the club.


Didn't the whole Rockingham committee resign en masse leaving the club with a £20k deficit? I know it was a bit of a swansong for Mark who'd been there from the beginning.

I don't think people's commitment to the club is in question at all Mr Fish. On the whole they have done a good job and there have been changes made that were long overdue.

I spoke to John about redesigning AbsoluTTE at the AGM pre-Rockingham because I felt it was not doing the club, the car or itself justice. He was adamant there was no need, so I hope the new look proves him wrong and it is a sign of some real progression to come.


----------



## Wallsendmag

rustyintegrale said:


> MonTheFish said:
> 
> 
> 
> To be blunt the club was financially finished after that event. It would have been dead if it wasn't for people paying for things out of their own pocket (for example these people paid for the subsequent magazine runs out of their own pockets @ 3k a pop) to keep the club running.
> 
> Maybe people should bare this in mind if questioning people's commitment to the club.
> 
> 
> 
> Didn't the whole Rockingham committee resign en masse leaving the club with a £20k deficit? I know it was a bit of a swansong for Mark who'd been there from the beginning.
> 
> I don't think people's commitment to the club is in question at all Mr Fish. On the whole they have done a good job and there have been changes made that were long overdue.
> 
> I spoke to John about redesigning AbsoluTTE at the AGM pre-Rockingham because I felt it was not doing the club, the car or itself justice. He was adamant there was no need, so I hope the new look proves him wrong and it is a sign of some real progression to come.
Click to expand...

Do you want to upgrade to find out ?


----------



## wja96

Wallsendmag said:


> rustyintegrale said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MonTheFish said:
> 
> 
> 
> To be blunt the club was financially finished after that event. It would have been dead if it wasn't for people paying for things out of their own pocket (for example these people paid for the subsequent magazine runs out of their own pockets @ 3k a pop) to keep the club running.
> 
> Maybe people should bare this in mind if questioning people's commitment to the club.
> 
> 
> 
> Didn't the whole Rockingham committee resign en masse leaving the club with a £20k deficit? I know it was a bit of a swansong for Mark who'd been there from the beginning.
> 
> I don't think people's commitment to the club is in question at all Mr Fish. On the whole they have done a good job and there have been changes made that were long overdue.
> 
> I spoke to John about redesigning AbsoluTTE at the AGM pre-Rockingham because I felt it was not doing the club, the car or itself justice. He was adamant there was no need, so I hope the new look proves him wrong and it is a sign of some real progression to come.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Do you want to upgrade to find out ?
Click to expand...

Actually, that's a good point. It's the TTOC's own West Lothian question. As I understand it, web subscription members will be able to vote on matters surrounding a magazine they don't pay for or receive. Or did I miss something?


----------



## rustyintegrale

Wallsendmag said:


> rustyintegrale said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MonTheFish said:
> 
> 
> 
> To be blunt the club was financially finished after that event. It would have been dead if it wasn't for people paying for things out of their own pocket (for example these people paid for the subsequent magazine runs out of their own pockets @ 3k a pop) to keep the club running.
> 
> Maybe people should bare this in mind if questioning people's commitment to the club.
> 
> 
> 
> Didn't the whole Rockingham committee resign en masse leaving the club with a £20k deficit? I know it was a bit of a swansong for Mark who'd been there from the beginning.
> 
> I don't think people's commitment to the club is in question at all Mr Fish. On the whole they have done a good job and there have been changes made that were long overdue.
> 
> I spoke to John about redesigning AbsoluTTE at the AGM pre-Rockingham because I felt it was not doing the club, the car or itself justice. He was adamant there was no need, so I hope the new look proves him wrong and it is a sign of some real progression to come.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Do you want to upgrade to find out ?
Click to expand...

 :lol: :lol: Actually Andrew I might, but I read somewhere that you wanted to 'boil my head'... :lol: :lol:

I think we're 'evens' now. :wink:

*EDIT* How do I upgrade to 'full' membership and get the 2 year offer?


----------



## rustyintegrale

So now the two year offer is closed? :roll:


----------



## Wallsendmag

rustyintegrale said:


> So now the two year offer is closed? :roll:


Yup I have overstepped my authority by all accounts and was personally liable for any losses, a chance I am not willing to take .


----------



## John-H

Wallsendmag said:


> rustyintegrale said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MonTheFish said:
> 
> 
> 
> To be blunt the club was financially finished after that event. It would have been dead if it wasn't for people paying for things out of their own pocket (for example these people paid for the subsequent magazine runs out of their own pockets @ 3k a pop) to keep the club running.
> 
> Maybe people should bare this in mind if questioning people's commitment to the club.
> 
> 
> 
> Didn't the whole Rockingham committee resign en masse leaving the club with a £20k deficit? I know it was a bit of a swansong for Mark who'd been there from the beginning.
> 
> I don't think people's commitment to the club is in question at all Mr Fish. On the whole they have done a good job and there have been changes made that were long overdue.
> 
> I spoke to John about redesigning AbsoluTTE at the AGM pre-Rockingham because I felt it was not doing the club, the car or itself justice. He was adamant there was no need, so I hope the new look proves him wrong and it is a sign of some real progression to come.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Do you want to upgrade to find out ?
Click to expand...




wja96 said:


> Actually, that's a good point. It's the TTOC's own West Lothian question. As I understand it, web subscription members will be able to vote on matters surrounding a magazine they don't pay for or receive. Or did I miss something?


Rich,

That's a little unkind. I did mention this to you before - a lot of wine had been drunk and we were the last two in the room, it was late, I'd not spoken to you and bed was calling. I was new to editing the magazine and had been told stories about you being the evil horned beast designer who wanted to take over the club and magazine design :twisted: - naturally I was a bit wary when you came over to talk. People can exaggerate and since then I've got to know you better through the forum and dealing with fraudsters and your help in calming spats down etc and I think you can be fair.

Can I point out firstly that I've always left the magazine design to the designer. The committee thought it best to keep the magazine the same for continuity reasons from Graham's time at the start (issue 14) but Richard re-vamped the magazine for issue 20 - so it has had a redesign. It was just about to have another under Richard due for issue 34 but the chance was unceremoniously taken away from him. I'm sure the magazine the committee are putting together themselves will look different and have a more modern fresh look but then again I'm sure Richard's would have too. So neither redesign would be proving me anything - design is not my remit - I was just a little scared of you at the time :lol:

Davey,

We are all very grateful for Nick, Rob and others helping to bail out the club and as you know we all worked hard to turn around the finances. The money was eventually paid back in full and nobody is owed anything. Commitment should not be confused with ownership - the club is now owned equally by all its members. Committee members have no greater say and only one vote, the same as any other member. The membership should democratically decide direction and as committee members we act as stewards of the club and should follow members wishes even if we don't agree with them.

Wja96,

A very interesting point that you make. Web members do receive a cut down pdf version of the magazine and there is a cost to its design and production - so perhaps not as unfair as it first seems but a point nonetheless.



Spandex said:


> Wallsendmag said:
> 
> 
> 
> I may be missing something but we haven't got any money , we don't know what John has signed us up to . We don't know what rate John has charged. We don't even know who John has contacted . If you are acting as a go between shouldn't both sides know what you are doing ?
> 
> 
> 
> Chances are, he's got you more than the £0 you'd have got yourselves if you were left to your own devices though, right? Lets be honest, the advertising deal *should be* a massively important thing for the TTOC, so the only reason for them to drag their feet is so they could 'accidentally' miss the deadline and thus remove the only barrier to the split they've always wanted.
> 
> I'm glad I'm not a TTOC member, otherwise I'd be finding this fiasco annoying, rather than hilarious... :lol:
Click to expand...

Andrew, I was acting as go between twixt traders and Tyre forums whom the contracts are between but I can claim commission for the club for doing the donkey work if you are now interested.

Spandex, what can I say? Always the researched observer and logical analyst. :wink:


----------



## Bartsimpsonhead

Wallsendmag said:


> rustyintegrale said:
> 
> 
> 
> So now the two year offer is closed? :roll:
> 
> 
> 
> Yup I have overstepped my authority by all accounts and was personally liable for any losses, a chance I am not willing to take .
Click to expand...

I did wonder how that'd work - obviously offering people two-years membership for the price-of-one now would mean next years membership revenue will dip dramatically. Especially if a lot of savvy existing members take-up the offer. So withdrawing the offer's understandable if you'd have to pay the shortfall yourself.

'Though how would it be worked out how much you'd have to pay the Club in compensation? It'd be unfair making you pay for new members who wouldn't have otherwise joined unless the offer was in place. And how do they prove newbies would've joined two years in a row on the usual one year deal? They can't. Seems very unfair suggesting you should make-up the shortfall.

But if it were limited to new members only then it might attract a lot of new memberships. [smiley=idea.gif] [smiley=weneedyou.gif] [smiley=deal2.gif] 
Maybe it's something that could be leafleted/offered at shows for new members only? Though that would mean approaching 'strangers', and I know from experience the current committee doesn't do that at shows very well... [smiley=zzz.gif] [smiley=sleeping.gif]


----------



## rustyintegrale

John-H said:


> Rich,
> 
> That's a little unkind. I did mention this to you before - a lot of wine had been drunk and we were the last two in the room, it was late, I'd not spoken to you and bed was calling. I was new to editing the magazine and had been told stories about you being the evil horned beast designer who wanted to take over the club and magazine design :twisted: - naturally I was a bit wary when you came over to talk. People can exaggerate and since then I've got to know you better through the forum and dealing with fraudsters and your help in calming spats down etc and I think you can be fair.


There are a lot of truths in that statement John...

*"People can exaggerate"...
*
Yes, stories about me were often derogatory and for the greater part embellished. This is a natural defence mechanism for those feeling threatened or otherwise uncomfortable. It is particularly evident in people who can offer no logical or meaningful defence to an argument put forward.

* "...had been told stories about you being the evil horned beast designer who wanted to take over the club and magazine design..."*

The club advertised the position of 'Club Designer' as being vacant. I had just joined the TTOC and wanted to give something back. I approached Mark Leavy (Chair at the time) and after discussion we agreed that I could provide the design services required and stamp my own mark on the magazine.

I delivered said design requirements at very short notice for the national event at Donington - often working on projects when I should've been working on paying work. Although deadlines were already tight I was amazed to see that the committee had to 'approve' practically everything produced. That in itself was not a quick process and one that I felt very strongly should change for fear of missing deadlines altogether.

I am a great believer that if you hire someone (or especially use their services FOC) to provide services that you cannot provide yourself, then you should allow them reasonably free rein to do what they are good at. The club did exactly the opposite and it was that mindset that I wanted to change. I was not looking to 'take over the club'.

When that proved impossible I did indeed collude to set up another club with others who I felt were far more forward thinking and able to provide club events that we felt were more in tune with the membership at the time. Hence the EnTTente Cordiale French cruise, Alpina iTTalia etc. I still believe that the club is missing many opportunities and placing hurdles in front of anyone who comes up with fresh thinking does not encourage constructive ideas to take the club forward.

*"I think you can be fair."*

I think I have often demonstrated a sense of fairness on this forum and in 'real' life. Admittedly I have also behaved in entirely the opposite way on many occasions. Some of this 'bad' character has been the result of misunderstanding, my own frustration and sometimes just plain drunkeness.  But I am human and I think I have always held my hand up to misbehaviour - belated apologies to anyone who has witnessed my bad side and not received an apology. That willingness to make the peace is not always evident in others who have sought to hurl abuse or otherwise undermine me or other members.

Finally...

*"That's a little unkind"*

You're probably right John. In truth I had probably consumed a lot more wine than you by that stage so I should extend you the benefit of the doubt. For what it's worth I think you're an honourable man who could probably benefit from loosening up a little. I don't doubt your integrity and like me you have a strong desire to perform to the best of your abilities. However that steadfastness is causing you issues with other people also elected to do a job. That is exactly the mistake I made and I have no doubt there are other personalities on the current committee who are doing exactly the same.


----------



## Wallsendmag

Bartsimpsonhead said:


> Wallsendmag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rustyintegrale said:
> 
> 
> 
> So now the two year offer is closed? :roll:
> 
> 
> 
> Yup I have overstepped my authority by all accounts and was personally liable for any losses, a chance I am not willing to take .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I did wonder how that'd work - obviously offering people two-years membership for the price-of-one now would mean next years membership revenue will dip dramatically. Especially if a lot of savvy existing members take-up the offer. So withdrawing the offer's understandable if you'd have to pay the shortfall yourself.
> 
> 'Though how would it be worked out how much you'd have to pay the Club in compensation? It'd be unfair making you pay for new members who wouldn't have otherwise joined unless the offer was in place. And how do they prove newbies would've joined two years in a row on the usual one year deal? They can't. Seems very unfair suggesting you should make-up the shortfall.
> 
> But if it were limited to new members only then it might attract a lot of new memberships. [smiley=idea.gif] [smiley=weneedyou.gif] [smiley=deal2.gif]
> Maybe it's something that could be leafleted/offered at shows for new members only? Though that would mean approaching 'strangers', and I know from experience the current committee doesn't do that at shows very well... [smiley=zzz.gif] [smiley=sleeping.gif]
Click to expand...

The problem we have is with membership retention, the offer was working well in overcoming that. I took the decision that the vast majority of our revenue income was from new members something that is always going to be there so getting half the revenue for renewals that wouldn't have renewed would be a massive boost .


----------



## rustyintegrale

Wallsendmag said:


> rustyintegrale said:
> 
> 
> 
> So now the two year offer is closed? :roll:
> 
> 
> 
> Yup I have overstepped my authority by all accounts and was personally liable for any losses, a chance I am not willing to take .
Click to expand...

Better delete your sig link then...


----------



## rustyintegrale

Wallsendmag said:


> The problem we have is with membership retention, the offer was working well in overcoming that. I took the decision that the vast majority of our revenue income was from new members something that is always going to be there so getting half the revenue for renewals that wouldn't have renewed would be a massive boost .


I think that's actually good thinking. I can't understand how or why you would be personally liable for any losses though. What losses could there be if it was a 'renewals' offer only?


----------



## Wallsendmag

rustyintegrale said:


> Wallsendmag said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem we have is with membership retention, the offer was working well in overcoming that. I took the decision that the vast majority of our revenue income was from new members something that is always going to be there so getting half the revenue for renewals that wouldn't have renewed would be a massive boost .
> 
> 
> 
> I think that's actually good thinking. I can't understand how or why you would be personally liable for any losses though. What losses could there be if it was a 'renewals' offer only?
Click to expand...

Not looking like it by the way I was treated on the committee forum  I may only be in the role for a week or so anyhow.


----------



## Mark Davies

The issue was an old one - that all of a sudden an offer giving away a year's free membership appears on the forum completely without the knowledge of a good chunk of the committee. It turns out _yet again_ the 'gang of four' (Nick, Andrew, Sara and Peter - or so we were subsequently told) have had their own private little meeting and implemented policy decisions on their own. The same people doing exactly the same thing in exactly the same way as they did throwing John out of the Club - actions that caused _so much_ anger amongst the membership.

I know there was a Skype chat organised which I couldn't take part in because I was working, but was invited to. Fair enough, this may have been discussed during that. I wouldn't say I was deliberately excluded from a discussion. _But_ at the very least I would have expected something to be posted in the committee forum along the lines of, "Last night we were discussing this as an idea. What does everyone else think?" However no, there is still this mindset that certain people can do whatever they like without reference to anyone outside their personal circle; that just because people can't manage to participate in a chat then there's no need for them to be consulted and decisions can be made by however few people happen to be there.

*It seems they have learnt nothing at all.*

So I raised the point about the financial implications, pointing out what Bartsimpsonhead also immediately recognised - that actually it made sense for absolutely everybody in the Club to renew their membership this month, even if they'd only renewed last month because they'd all get anything from 1 month to 12 months free membership. Had this been properly costed? Did we know just exacly how much of our annual income for 2014/2015 we were giving away and what were the cash flow implications of potentially having no income other than new members coming in for an entire year? How many new members did we think it would generate and did the long term benefits justify the costs?

I'm not against the idea of giving discounts to the members in principle. I just object to the manner in which it was done and question whether it was financially viable. I certainly doubt it was properly costed. And I pointed out if the policy ended up putting the Club into financial difficulties then any subsequent committee would certainly have grounds to sue the individuals responsible for the loss of income on grounds of negligence and lack of process.

So the offer was withdrawn. Not by committee vote of course - the same people who unilaterally put it in place unilaterally pulled it. However I hope it will of course be honoured for those who had already taken it up. Hard for me to say because there doesn't seem to be any kind of valid control or decision making processess in place at the moment. The offer could reappear again overnight for all I know. The Club just seems to be being run by the few who have administrative access to the Club's online systems, with no reference to anyone else.

Still, not long to go until the election.


----------



## jamman

Oh dear doesn't make good reading I hope this can all be sorted out


----------



## Wallsendmag

Mark this is not the place, I was hurt last night by your wild accusations and basically saying I didn't know what I was doing then throwing around wild figures.


----------



## jamman

Wallsendmag said:


> Mark this is not the place, I was hurt last night by your wild accusations and basically saying I didn't know what I was doing then throwing around wild figures.


I think Andrew does have a valid point there Mark this will inly stir things up further.

I think when we all meet at E13 I need to get you all in a room and start knocking some heads together please start trying to pull together in one direction Im sure you would find it MUCH EASIER


----------



## paulc1

jamman said:


> Wallsendmag said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mark this is not the place, I was hurt last night by your wild accusations and basically saying I didn't know what I was doing then throwing around wild figures.
> 
> 
> 
> I think Andrew does have a valid point there Mark this will inly stir things up further.
> 
> I think when we all meet at E13 I need to get you all in a room and start knocking some heads together please start trying to pull together in one direction Im sure you would find it MUCH EASIER
Click to expand...

+ 1 this should be kept in house


----------



## Gazzer

ok take photos, screen prints and make T-shirts out of them.............james and paul agreed on something lol.
(GROUP HUG)


----------



## TT Law

Why should it be kept private?

It is important for members to understand just how things are at the moment. Maybe it should be on the OC site yes.

As mark has pointed out this another repeat of the abuse of power demonstrated when John was evicted from his role.

At no point was the member offer discussed with me, Dani or Mark. It was simply agreed by 4 of the committee without even a thought for our contribution. Both myself and Mark immediately saw the risk to the finances next year and if it had been discussed or even just posted on the committee forum for comment this would have not happened.

It seems ok to have a full public discussion about what John was alleged to have done with contracts but not this.

It simply cannot be swept under the carpet. The committee is here to run the club as a collective working together and I can tell you it doesn't feel that way. This particular incident does not appear in any minutes of meetings. How are we supposed to be transparent in these circumstances.

I can tell you it feels that if your opinion differs you are simply treated as an enemy and that's not how it should be.

Take the voting process for the forthcoming committee elections. My view was different to others in that I thought it was too big a step to go online vote only in one go. I thought it fair to keep postal and AGM evening votes for this year until people were fully up to speed with the online system. I didn't want any votes to be missed. I posted this on the committee forum for discussion expecting the committee to be asked to vote on a way forward. Toy astonishment the system was changed to allow other than online voting. No committee vote just changed. I should be happy that my proposal was adopted but I am not because again it was just done.

I don't want to rant but I cannot tell you how frustrating all this is. I have been on the committee for nearly 10 years and I really want the club to succeed and move forward but at this rate nothing could be further from reality.

Sorry for the length of the post but I feel it had to be said.

Steve


----------



## phope

TT Law said:


> ... Both myself and Mark immediately saw the risk to the finances next year and if it had been discussed or even just posted on the committee forum for comment this would have not happened.


and you were so enraged you went and renewed your membership, taking advantage of the offer...


----------



## MonTheFish

phope said:


> TT Law said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... Both myself and Mark immediately saw the risk to the finances next year and if it had been discussed or even just posted on the committee forum for comment this would have not happened.
> 
> 
> 
> and you were so enraged you went and renewed your membership, taking advantage of the offer...
Click to expand...

I almost lost my tea there.....


----------



## glslang

I just lurk on all these posts and think to myself this can't be real. I just find it all mind boggling. Guess I'm really naive...


----------



## Chris Woods

This isn't the best advert for new members :/

I think I'll hold off joining for now.


----------



## TT Law

phope said:


> TT Law said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... Both myself and Mark immediately saw the risk to the finances next year and if it had been discussed or even just posted on the committee forum for comment this would have not happened.
> 
> 
> 
> and you were so enraged you went and renewed your membership, taking advantage of the offer...
Click to expand...

Peter,

I had expired and Andrew had just posted that on a thread. What's your point?

I don't expect to get a year for free.

Shame you have to resort to attacks like that. Just simply demonstrates what I have posted really. Can you let me know how this fits with the data protection policy recently posted about disclosing members details such as when I have renewed.

I see because I have dared to post something that doesn't fit I am once again the enemy.

Steve


----------



## peter-ss

burns said:


> Please remember, it was John who was incapable of getting on with numerous committee members, not the other way around.
> 
> The rest of us are getting on with organising the magazine and EvenTT so that members can again enjoy their club. As I stated on TTF, we are a strong team and are working well to bring the members the benefits they deserve.


This doesn't seem to be the case, does it?


----------



## TT Law

Oh I'm so hurt now as I'm de-friended on Facebook. Some people need to bloody grow up and keep things professional.


----------



## burns

peter-ss said:


> burns said:
> 
> 
> 
> Please remember, it was John who was incapable of getting on with numerous committee members, not the other way around.
> 
> The rest of us are getting on with organising the magazine and EvenTT so that members can again enjoy their club. As I stated on TTF, we are a strong team and are working well to bring the members the benefits they deserve.
> 
> 
> 
> This doesn't seem to be the case, does it?
Click to expand...

Yes it does.

But I have no idea why you are quoting posts across forums. Very odd indeed.


----------



## Audiphil

May TTOC members consider how the arguing on an open forum is potentially damaging the club ethos and putting off new members please.


----------



## jamman

TT Law said:


> Oh I'm so hurt now as I'm de-friended on Facebook. Some people need to bloody grow up and keep things professional.


Tell me you are joking :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## John-H

Audiphil said:


> May TTOC members consider how the arguing on an open forum is potentially damaging the club ethos and putting off new members please.


It may put off potential members but what would they be joining if it's all kept secret and nothing changes? You have to offset the negative with the positive that will come from exposing the truth and achieving change at the elections.

I urge members to consider what has led to all of this and what needs doing to fix it.


----------



## TT Law

jamman said:


> TT Law said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh I'm so hurt now as I'm de-friended on Facebook. Some people need to bloody grow up and keep things professional.
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me you are joking :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Click to expand...

Depends on what you mean by joking. Am I upset - NO. Have 2 committee members de-friended me - Yes. Do I think it's childish - yes.

As John says one side of me thinks it should be private but what change will that achieve? None other than another 12 months of crap and squabbling. 
Members have a right to know about this. I don't want to be in a position of being accused of sweeping things under the carpet.


----------



## Bartsimpsonhead

Keep it coming. It's good to hear someones honest opinions on why things aren't running properly and needs to be sorted out - otherwise it just stays the same dysfunctional mess.

And if it were just kept between the committee on a private forum how are we the membership to know that they that serve our interests aren't abusing the positions we vote them in, or that we should consider change if needs be?

I had considered proposing an additional rule for the membership to vote on whereby a new rule is entered into the Club Constitution where no committee member may serve in the same position on the committee for more than two consecutive years (unless their position goes unchallenged in the elections, in which case they may be the sole candidate to re-election.)
After they'd served two years in the same position on the committee there'd be no block on a committee member seeking election in a new position on the committee - just not in the position they'd held for the previous two years.
Then, much like the American system of the President serving only two terms (be it four years per term in their case) it would force change in the committee bi-annually and we'd get some new people with fresh ideas at the helm.

Though I'm not sure how the hell I'd write it up and formally propose it for voting?!?

On the FB thing - children eh? Some people can be so petty over the smallest little disagreement! I hope they don't sulk over it for too long.


----------



## rustyintegrale

TT Law said:


> Oh I'm so hurt now as I'm de-friended on Facebook. Some people need to bloody grow up and keep things professional.


And this is the same club that bemoans apathy amongst the members and wonders why people don't renew.

I'd be very surprised if people vote for anyone at this rate.


----------



## rustyintegrale

John-H said:


> I urge members to consider what has led to all of this and what needs doing to fix it.


Okay John, tell us what you'd do. I've heard your thoughts repeatedly about what is wrong but not heard too much from you (or the others standing) about what you will add to the club.

If you remember I asked the same question back in March so you've all had plenty of time to get together and come up with a workable plan.


----------



## Nyxx

John-H said:


> It may put off potential members but what would they be joining if it's all kept secret and nothing changes? How about one big change from the off, a brand new mag for a start, all done with out you as editor.You have to offset the negative with the positive that will come from exposing the truth and achieving change at the elections.
> 
> *I urge members to consider what has led to all of this and what needs doing to fix it.
> That's an easy one John, you not gracefully excepting 5 out of 9 committee members could not work with you.
> If you had excepted your short comings NONE of this would have happened NONE.*


----------



## Nyxx

peter-ss said:


> burns said:
> 
> 
> 
> Please remember, it was John who was incapable of getting on with numerous committee members, not the other way around.
> 
> The rest of us are getting on with organising the magazine and EvenTT so that members can again enjoy their club. As I stated on TTF, we are a strong team and are working well to bring the members the benefits they deserve.
> 
> 
> 
> This doesn't seem to be the case, does it?
Click to expand...

Enlighten us Peter, please. Let's here your thoughts and opinions on "_This doesn't seem to be the case, does it_? 
A strong opinion like that, please Enlighten us what you are thinking.

Thank you.


----------



## peter-ss

John aside there still appears to be arguments within the Committee.

Sent from my GT-S5830i using Tapatalk 2


----------



## John-H

I haven't posted my manifesto publically yet Rich and neither have others who will be a necessary part of fixing all of this. This is also Peter's thread which i'll bear in mind. Briefly; part of the fix in terms of policy as I see it will be removing the cause of conflict. It's no secret that I believe in this forum as a primary on line resorce for the club and all members and that it is counterproductive to try and push the TTOC members' area into a position to rival it and aim for eventual separation - even little by little like "forgetting" to manage the TTF sponsors etc. or questioning where "Home to the TTOC" is. We are stronger as one and working closely together. That's where all this trouble started and whilst I accept that under the spotlight a sudden change is not on the cards, the ambitions and attitude - the cause of conflict - is still there.

There has been too much of a "them and us" ambitious rivalry and an aloof mindset cliche in the leadership past and present which I believe is not what members want. It's been mentioned that roles should be limited in term. It's true that being in a role too long can bring about feelings of "ownership" and "privilidge" leading to neglect of the primary role - that of stewardship on behalf of members for their benefit. That attitude can spread to others - not only new committtee members joining who want to fit in but also leads to the generation of a "yes men" culture which even spreads outside with personal supporters encouraged to attack opposing views as can clearly be seen in these threads. It becomes personal rather than policy. Step out of line and suddenly you are declared the enemy and attacked.

Domocracy will put members back in charge but it has also become necessary for a change at the top. The "gang of four" need breaking up. Some may work perfectly well with replacements or in new roles if they have interests of the club at heart. That will test them and not losing them will retain knowledge and skills. They are not bad people and have brought a lot to the club but clearly the status quo isn't working and change is due. New voluntiers; Peter-ss being one declared so far, will be a welcome breath of fresh air.


----------



## Nyxx

peter-ss said:


> John aside there still appears to be arguments within the Committee.


I was hoping for a lot more than that Peter.


----------



## rustyintegrale

I like what I'm reading John and agree with the bulk of it! 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mark Davies

Wallsendmag said:


> Mark this is not the place, I was hurt last night by your wild accusations and basically saying I didn't know what I was doing then throwing around wild figures.


Andrew it was you who 'went public' complaining about how you'd been treated. As usual you didn't hesitate to open a can of worms, so I've posted what I was very careful to ensure was a factually accurate account of what had happened.

Frankly there _is_ a need for the members to know about it. Just a few months ago the four of you got together and thought there was nothing wrong with making major decisions between yourselves to the complete exclusion of the rest of your committee colleagues. That caused outrage amongst the membership, embroiled the Club in crisis and almost precipitated an EGM with potentially disasterous results. A lot of hard work had to be put in to steady the ship. Now we really would hope you'd learnt a lesson from that yet before we've even got to an AGM here you go implementing another major policy decision *in exactly the same manner*!

To say I was staggered by this is an understatement. To make the mistake once could be forgiveable; in the end we're not professionals at running a club and just doing our best. But to carry on and go and do _exactly_ the same thing _yet again _is beyond belief. So when the membership are potentially about to be asked to re-elect you they need to know that you still think this is an appropriate way to do business and so no doubt would continue to act like this in the future.

So this isn't about petty squabbling and washing laundry in public - throughout this whole mess I've refrained from that - it's just ensuring the membership are able to make properly informed decisions about the people they're being asked to vote for.


----------



## peter-ss

Dave,

There really isn't any more to it than that.

Sara gave us the impression that all is well with the Committee, since the ejection of John, but this doesn't seem to be the case.

Sent from my GT-S5830i using Tapatalk 2


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## burns

peter-ss said:


> Dave,
> 
> There really isn't any more to it than that.
> 
> Sara gave us the impression that all is well with the Committee, since the ejection of John, but this doesn't seem to be the case.
> 
> Sent from my GT-S5830i using Tapatalk 2


The fact is that those of us who are willing participants/team players/bothered about the club have arranged the EvenTT and produced a magazine, which you will all be seeing and experiencing very soon. That's in addition to continuing to run the club on a daily basis. Unfortunately, not every member of the committee has bothered to help. But those of us with passion have put it to good use so that members get what they expect and deserve: a fantastic EvenTT and a fresh, modern magazine.

So yes, all is well. We are producing what was promised and what is deserved by you, the membership.


----------



## Nyxx

That's great to hear burns

I hope you don't mind me saying, given the work you are doing under the cloud of people trying to rip everything your doing to part. It shows not only great dedication but true strength.

The members of the committee that have been working so hard in the last few months, the members can see who is the back bone of the committee and will carry on working to do the best they can for the members, others try and make life as hard as possible to try and make the committee look bad. 
With the coming eventTT and the new mag how can anyone under them curcomsizers question your commitment and how valuable you are.

I hope the members can see that.

I wonder who Peter is getting his info from! Shame proberly the same people who are currently making life as hard as possible for you.


----------



## peter-ss

Dave,

I'm getting my information from the ongoing arguments, between Committee members, within this thread.

Sent from my GT-S5830i using Tapatalk 2


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## A3DFU

burns said:


> The fact is that those of us who are willing participants/team players/bothered about the club have arranged the EvenTT and produced a magazine, which you will all be seeing and experiencing very soon. That's in addition to continuing to run the club on a daily basis. Unfortunately, not every member of the committee has bothered to help. But those of us with passion have put it to good use so that members get what they expect and deserve: a fantastic EvenTT and a fresh, modern magazine.
> 
> So yes, all is well. We are producing what was promised and what is deserved by you, the membership.


Sara all is far from well and you know it.

As Mark has pointed out four committee members are still acting unilateral on their own without bothering to inform, never mind consulting, the rest of us: Mark, Steve and myself



Mark Davies said:


> The issue was an old one - that all of a sudden an offer giving away a year's free membership appears on the forum completely without the knowledge of a good chunk of the committee. It turns out yet again the 'gang of four' (Nick, Andrew, Sara and Peter - or so we were subsequently told) have had their own private little meeting and implemented policy decisions on their own. The same people doing exactly the same thing in exactly the same way as they did throwing John out of the Club - actions that caused so much anger amongst the membership.


Do you think it correct to keep Steve, myself (and most likely Mark as well) from being able to access committee information which is stored on _Dropbox_? The password for Dropbox was changed some weeks ago and neither Steve nor myself were given the new password despite both of us mentioning it a few times. The "club of four" is deliberately keeping committee members in the dark about their decisions.

Point F9 of the constitution states that:


> No member of the committee is permitted to accept personal gifts or hospitality form any supplier to the club or advertiser in the club magazine


However at least one committee member did exactly that!

Last year in July Nick went on Audi Experience Weekend to Copenhagen. Fully paid for by Audi UK: the return flight Heathrow-Copenhagen, an overnight stay in a "most modern and amazing hotel", a Black Tie Gala Dinner, driving around Copenhagen and into Sweden for some Track Driving. 
The club members didn't get the benefit of a full report of the weekend but it was all kept hush-hush.

Then there is your recent article in _absoluTT_e 33 about the respray work for your MK1 TT. What exactly was the arrangement with Paulc1's featured company? How did you pay for it?

One committee member was unconstitutionally expelled from the committee. The chairman has accepted Audi hospitality which is against the constitution. Two, if not three committee members are denied access to information.

So all is well? Really?


----------



## burns

When did you last attend a meeting, Dani? Or even contribute to any online discussion, except to make glib remarks? The fact is that you are not participating, and then allege that those of us who do continue to work hard are excluding you.

As for my bonnet respray at Just Car Clinic, I parted with a sum in the region of £150 in respect of it. That was money I earned from my employment. My previous resprays, and indeed all work done on my car, was funded from the same source. My new car was also purchased using money obtained from employment. I trust this resolves matters for you.


----------



## Wallsendmag

Just what do Audi (UK) supply the club ? They don't advertise with the club so I can't see any problem there . As far as I know if Nick didn't go we couldn't have nominated a sub.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2


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## John-H

burns said:


> When did you last attend a meeting, Dani? Or even contribute to any online discussion, except to make glib remarks? The fact is that you are not participating, and then allege that those of us who do continue to work hard are excluding you.
> 
> As for my bonnet respray at Just Car Clinic, I parted with a sum in the region of £150 in respect of it. That was money I earned from my employment. My previous resprays, and indeed all work done on my car, was funded from the same source. My new car was also purchased using money obtained from employment. I trust this resolves matters for you.


Was that payment made to Just Car Clinics?

Andrew, Audi is the biggest supplier to the club - the club is it's members and we've all got TTs, we get merchandise off them to distribute and Audi dealerships from time to time have advertised with us. It wouldn't be so bad if it was turned into a member benefit such as a write up in the magazine etc. but it wasn't even TT related. Just accepting it without question and keeping it quiet with no benefit to show from it boils it down to a "jolly".


----------



## Wallsendmag

John-H said:


> burns said:
> 
> 
> 
> When did you last attend a meeting, Dani? Or even contribute to any online discussion, except to make glib remarks? The fact is that you are not participating, and then allege that those of us who do continue to work hard are excluding you.
> 
> As for my bonnet respray at Just Car Clinic, I parted with a sum in the region of £150 in respect of it. That was money I earned from my employment. My previous resprays, and indeed all work done on my car, was funded from the same source. My new car was also purchased using money obtained from employment. I trust this resolves matters for you.
> 
> 
> 
> Was that payment made to Just Car Clinics?
> 
> Andrew, Audi is the biggest supplier to the club - the club is it's members and we've all got TTs, we get merchandise off them to distribute and Audi dealerships from time to time have advertised with us. It wouldn't be so bad if it was turned into a member benefit such as a write up in the magazine etc. but it wasn't even TT related. Just accepting it without question and keeping it quiet with no benefit to show from it boils it down to a "jolly".
Click to expand...

Oh FFS actually Neil C is the biggest supplier to the club so you need to get your facts correct .


----------



## burns

John-H said:


> burns said:
> 
> 
> 
> When did you last attend a meeting, Dani? Or even contribute to any online discussion, except to make glib remarks? The fact is that you are not participating, and then allege that those of us who do continue to work hard are excluding you.
> 
> As for my bonnet respray at Just Car Clinic, I parted with a sum in the region of £150 in respect of it. That was money I earned from my employment. My previous resprays, and indeed all work done on my car, was funded from the same source. My new car was also purchased using money obtained from employment. I trust this resolves matters for you.
> 
> 
> 
> Was that payment made to Just Car Clinics?
Click to expand...

No. They were keen to set up a discount programme with the club (which indeed they have - see my signature strip), and were interested in my bonnet as a project due to the tragic state it had become. I received a phonecall saying they would do it for free, which of course I told them I was unable to accept. However, they refused to accept any money for it, so instead I made a £100 donation to their corporate charity of choice, Macmillan Cancer Support. I also sent around £50 worth of beer, cider and chocolate to JCC as a thank you for the work.


----------



## Nem

How about we all step away from the keyboard, take a breath and wait until next week for the committee elections to be posted. There any specific questions can be asked and hopefully addressed.

All this has become is a mud slinging match to see what might stick and it's quite simply pointless and desparate.

It's still staggering for it to be said that after 5 years of hard work trying to build relations back up with Audi UK that when they finally came to me and said they wanted me to attend a weekend with them and some other UK forum / club officials to show what they have been working on you seem to suggest I was meant to say "actually we're not bothered thanks".

Simply mindblowing.


----------



## A3DFU

Nem said:


> How about we all step away from the keyboard


So what you're in fact saying Nick is "don't show up any committee member who's done wrong in the past". Is that it?

Oh, I thought the statements/manifestos of potential committee members would go up on 21st June, not next week? 21st June = the day after I get back from my annual holidays?


----------



## A3DFU

Nem said:


> It's still staggering for it to be said that after 5 years of hard work trying to build relations back up with Audi UK that when they finally came to me and said they wanted me to attend a weekend with them and some other UK forum / club officials to show what they have been working on you seem to suggest I was meant to say "actually we're not bothered thanks".


PS, I'm not taking away your achievement Nick. You done loads for the club!!! But you really ought to stick to the club's constitution. That's what it's for.

Oh, and you will find that I, too, did some work in the background without much ado to rebuild relations with Audi UK. After all, the two mega prizes of the Audi Hospitality Day of which Penny won one, was due to my long standing connections with Audi UK :wink:

I would never have mentioned it if it wouldn't have been for your comment above :roll:


----------



## Nem

A3DFU said:


> Nem said:
> 
> 
> 
> How about we all step away from the keyboard
> 
> 
> 
> So what you're in fact saying Nick is "don't show up any committee member who's done wrong in the past". Is that it?
> 
> Oh, I thought the statements/manifestos of potential committee members would go up on 21st June, not next week? 21st June = the day after I get back from my annual holidays?
Click to expand...

No, I'm saying this is getting neither me, you, John or most importantly the club anywhere.

I apologise, I'm a week ahead of myself, my bad. But it does emphasise how quick we all are to jump on any little error we make.


----------



## John-H

So Sara, you admit you had work done on your car for free in return for advertising.

Nick, would you like to explain to members how you also thought it was a good idea to take one of the Audi track day experience competition places for yourself despite it being strenuously suggested to you that in these circumstances you should offer both places to members?


----------



## Wallsendmag

John-H said:


> So Sara, you admit you had work done on your car for free in return for advertising.
> 
> Nick, would you like to explain to members how you also thought it was a good idea to take one of the Audi track day experience competition places for yourself despite it being strenuously suggested to you that in these circumstances you should offer both places to members?


John if you really wanted what's best for the club you would continue this elsewhere instead of trying to further your cause . :? Now the posts are there everyone can see them, if you keep on like this there won't be a club.


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## Nem

Because no matter how you try and twist things to your benefit, Audi is not a supplier to this club. It's members maybe, but not this club.

But also because Audi did not ask for two members, they asked specifically for me and a member. Thats me, by name, in full, as the chairman of this club, to be there and be part of that day for the benefit of the club and strengthening our links with Audi UK.

The current circumstances have nothing to do with the fact that the club is still trying to benefit from our link with Audi and I'm currently the person they have asked for.

We are in the current situation as myself and other members of the committee interpreted the constitution to our benefit to remove you. It seems that you are happy to be led by example in your interpretation of "a supplier to this club". You really are now clinging to desperation in an effort to discredit me and it's not working.

Go outside, enjoy the sunshine and in TWO weeks we'll have the almighty row that you are pushing towards in the committee election threads.


----------



## burns

John-H said:


> So Sara, you admit you had work done on your car for free in return for advertising.


No I most certainly do not. JCC would not accept payment, but that doesn't mean I didn't part with £150 as I set out above. Please re-read my post until you understand it.

And no, it was not done in return for advertising, whether free or otherwise. I was always intending to write that article, even before I discovered JCC, as it was a bloody good story (although it felt pretty horrible to be on the receiving end of repeated poor workmanship by other body shops). Anyone who knows me even a jot knows that if you do me a bad job, I'll tell the world and if you do me a good job, I'll tell the world ten times over.


----------



## Audiphil

I asked last night for calm and consideration for what damage the constant sniping is causing to the club and relationships, yet reading the posts today the situation has deteriorated.

Nem and the committee have placed a lot of consideration and work into the voting, Event TT and the magazine.

This is a time when we need to be united and respect there may be differing views which is why we all have a vote and an invitation to the AGM or place our thoughts in writing to the committee.

I personally hope there will not be three more weeks of this poor behaviour.

:-(


----------



## TT Law

Audiphil said:


> I asked last night for calm and consideration for what damage the constant sniping is causing to the club and relationships, yet reading the posts today the situation has deteriorated.
> 
> Nem and the committee have placed a lot of consideration and work into the voting, Event TT and the magazine.
> 
> This is a time when we need to be united and respect there may be differing views which is why we all have a vote and an invitation to the AGM or place our thoughts in writing to the committee.
> 
> I personally hope there will not be three more weeks of this poor behaviour.
> 
> :-(


I was certainly not sniping. The facts have been presented and what happened? One moaning it shouldn't be on here who actually started it by posting accusations of poor behaviour on the committee forum. Another chose to attempt to discredit me as a deflection, another posts up that certain people aren't contributing. No actual comments on the actual issue.

I do disagree with Nick that it shouldn't be just pushed into the long grass as people will be voting shortly and it's important that what is going on is exposed.

The people who allegedly are not contributing don't have access to some of the IT so its hard to. Normally everybody comments on the magazine but both myself and Dani don't have the password to even look at it.

The club is being run by the 4 who Sara says care but others are excluded and have their ability to contribute restricted.

Steve


----------



## steviebabes

May I ask how many full board/committee members there are?

Just so I get an idea of what proportion the 4 represent.

From the exchanges so far, I feel I'm on safe ground to assume the 4 have not been appointed to any joint MD-ship or executive sub-committee.


----------



## phope

As I understand the constitution, the committee should have no less than 6 members



> ...The Committee shall consist of not less than 6 members and must include:
> i. Chairperson
> ii. Vice Chairperson
> iii. Club Secretary
> iv. Treasurer
> v. Membership Secretary
> vi. Events Secretary


It's been the practice over many years for other roles to be included in the committee, including editor of the magazine, rep secretary, webmaster, marketing secretary, etc but according to the club constitution agreed by members, these or other potential roles aren't strictly necessary for committee.

The club constitution was based on a style of document approved by the Motor Sports Association http://www.msauk.org/custom/asp/home/default.asp

Current positions are

Chair - Nick
Vice - Dani
Secretary - Sara
Treasurer - myself
Membership - Andy
Events - Steve
Rep secretary - Mark


----------



## phodge

A3DFU said:


> the Audi Hospitality Day of which Penny won one


And what does that have to do with the price of fish? :?


----------



## jamman

Stop this please folks


----------



## paulc1

I think it's time I set the record straight !

I can't believe this is being brought up now when this all happened with Sara's car nearly a year ago, I met Sara for the first time at evenTT when I was wandering around looking at all the TT's on show and noticed a couple of people looking at the bonnet of a black TT which turned out to be Sara's, me being nosy walked over said hello and then mentioned what I do for a living as an VDA vehicle damage assessor so started looking at her bonnet and the more I looked the worse it got, this started a few weeks of conversation about the best way forward giving the Fred in the shed body shop she had used giving them the chance to rectify their shoddy work , they tried and failed so i offered to arrange for an assessment of Sara's car at one of our branches of the chain of body shops that I work for , I organised all of it, estimate , booking the lot with the manager.

The car was booked in however both myself and the manager had our concerns that the bonnet was so bad we might struggle to match it , I suggested to him that we discount the job as I was aware that Sara was going to write an article about the whole traumatic experience and saw this as a good opportunity to promote my company and then be able to offer TTOC members a discount with us. We both decided we would wait until the job was finished and we were both happy with it then we would make a decision on what we would do with costs.

At this point the manager told Sara that the car was ready and he was really pleased with it as it only took 3 hours worth of labour to do the job.

Sara rang me after all the grief she had had with her car she was overwhelmed that her car was now perfect and told me it had been offered to her free , but she declined that due to her position , it also came as a surprise to me that the work was being done for free as he had not mentioned that he was going to do that as we have originally talked about a discount, but the manager being a proper Yorkshire lad doesn't take no for an answer and he stuck by that.

Sara's was totally unaware that the work was free until the car was dropped off to her on our recovery truck with the instruction from the manager that there was nothing to pay. Sara insisted on payment but the manager was happy that the tricky job on rectifying the horrendous mess of the bonnet had be completed to a good standard, therefore as Sara was still not happy to not pay for the completed work and as the manager still insisted of no payment Sara said as she had no option then she would like to pay towards our company charity and supply the staff with a shed load of goodies. At no point did Sara even ask for a discount during any part of the process and it was me who had asked if a discount could be sorted. I also was not aware that this work was going to be done for free.

This was all my idea , if you've seen the article its self i write my own part of it and all the images supplied were arranged by me and sent to John of my car in paint and for me most importantly pics of the site were the work was carried out.

As I've already said I had organised discount to be sorted , but the manager of the site off his own back did it for free and would not charge Sara , her TT was already painted at this point so there wasn't much else she could do other than to pay towards our charity.

I hope this clears up the matter once and for all and I would have done this for any member of the TTOC.


----------



## steviebabes

Absolutely excellent, helpful and relevant post.


----------



## Nyxx

*Paul*,
A very big thanks, I think that answers everything perfectly clearly.

A far far cry from how Dani was trying to make Sara look. 
Add to that John's " So Sara, you admit you had work done on your car for free in return for advertising"

Just how much to you want to twist good things into bad? Shameful.

*Peter*,
open your eyes these people twist things, just read again what Sara and Paul put. Then read again what Dani and John but.
Peter please wake up, I dread to think what has been said to you, let this please be a big wake up call. Peter ask Simon to read the above post's and ask him for his thoughts. Please Peter see the light.
Peter I will be frank with you and say here what I would say to your face, Having meet you at Stanford hall and coming to our meet I find you and Simon, Really nice, intelligent people and good company. I am not being patronizing just being frank. But your standing against Sara, why? If you stood for a place with the idea of working with Sara and Nick in a place I feel is free I would vote for you. But standing against Sara and wanting John back I will never vote for you.

*Nick,*
Thanks also for explain clearly why you had to go on the clubs behalf. After reading Dani post I thought you ran off with the clubs credit card on a jolly with out any other committee member being aware what was happening. :roll:
Also thanks for explaining about the track day, again a far cry from John's poor attempt to again twist things.

As your request I think I will stop posting until it all kicks of. Because at the moment it seems people are starting to scrape the barrel showing what level they will go to to make Sara and yourself look bad..


----------



## audimad

Chris Woods said:


> This isn't the best advert for new members :/
> 
> I think I'll hold off joining for now.


It is not always like this Chris. It is worth being a member even if it's just for the club magazine.


----------



## audimad

TT Law said:


> jamman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TT Law said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh I'm so hurt now as I'm de-friended on Facebook. Some people need to bloody grow up and keep things professional.
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me you are joking :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Depends on what you mean by joking. Am I upset - NO. Have 2 committee members de-friended me - Yes. Do I think it's childish - yes.
> 
> As John says one side of me thinks it should be private but what change will that achieve? None other than another 12 months of crap and squabbling.
> Members have a right to know about this. I don't want to be in a position of being accused of sweeping things under the carpet.
Click to expand...

I have been de-friended too by a committee member and when i send a friend request to them they just ignore it.


----------



## rustyintegrale

Well this has turned into an interesting thread.

There's no denying that being in a 'controlling' position in business or as part of any kind of group will expose you to 'offers' from third parties looking for 'favours' or to do a deal. There's plenty of truth in the saying "There's no such thing as a free lunch."

But I think we have to apply some common sense here. Who can honestly blame Nick for accepting an invitation from Audi for an expenses-paid trip? Who wouldn't want to accept it? Especially if the invite is personalised as this appears to have been.

Likewise Sara's bonnet respray. If the offer is there then why not take it? It's a perk of the role I guess and it happens on a daily basis everywhere.

But, concealing or attempting to conceal acceptance is a huge no-no. If you do this and are caught then alarm bells will ring and rightly so. What else could you be hiding and why? Suspicion, once aroused, will only develop into a witch hunt and even more so if further attempts are made to hide the truth.

Far better therefore to be open about it from the outset. I think any reasonable member would accept that 'perks' are okay - especially if they open up some benefit to the club - such as an article for the magazine, membership discount or a better relationship with the company involved.

Nothing in the real world is achieved without a bit of mutual back scratching - if you can't accept that then you're being a tad naive.


----------



## peter-ss

Nyxx said:


> *Peter*,
> open your eyes these people twist things, just read again what Sara and Paul put. Then read again what Dani and John but.
> Peter please wake up, I dread to think what has been said to you, let this please be a big wake up call. Peter ask Simon to read the above post's and ask him for his thoughts. Please Peter see the light.
> Peter I will be frank with you and say here what I would say to your face, Having meet you at Stanford hall and coming to our meet I find you and Simon, Really nice, intelligent people and good company. I am not being patronizing just being frank. But your standing against Sara, why? If you stood for a place with the idea of working with Sara and Nick in a place I feel is free I would vote for you. But standing against Sara and wanting John back I will never vote for you.


Dave,

From the outset of the recent issues I have gone out of my way to obtain the full picture from as many different places as possible. Earlier on in the year I spent an hour on the phone to John and then another hour on the phone to Andrew. Since then I've attended events organised by Nick, Sara and Dani. I have also read all of the Committee meeting minutes that have been published.

I was heavily criticised earlier in the year when I voiced my displeasure at the way John was ejected and people suggested that unless I was willing to put myself forward, for a Committee position, then I shouldn't complain. In addition to that Nick asked, at his local meet, if any of us would be interested in standing for a Committee post. I thought, why not? and went to to see what each post entailed. There are only six Committee positions listed on the TTOC website, all of which are currently filled, so in putting myself forward I'd have to stand 'against' someone.

My standing for the position of Club Secretary shouldn't be seen as an attack on Sara. I'm just an alternative candidate - It's down to the membership to decide who fills the position.

It may well be that the membership vote Sara back in, in which case I'll support the club by continuing to post useful write ups on the forum, writing magazine articles, spreading the word and helping out at events, where I can.


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## John-H

You make some good points Rich. Applying common sense is needed but so is discussing these things at committee level and having collective decisions made following due process. What we've seen here is certain committee members (the gang of four) excluding other committee members from discussion and involvement and even denying them access to do their job. Even when things are discussed advice is ignored, no due process is followed and unilateral and unconstitutional decisions taken regardless, which damages the club and its reputation.

If the chairman as the figurehead of the club gets personally and exclusively invited by name to a swanky Audi event in Sweden then technically to accept is in breach of the constitution (Audi is a supplier to the club because the club is its members) but common sense may say he should go - if the committee agrees and can show the members the benefit from it. But what was to show for it? At the very least an article for the magazine and some report to members but instead it was kept hush hush. As you say, when people find out questions get asked. Far better therefore to be up front about it.

The Audi Driving experience track day was another example. Although the chairman was contacted by name in an email there was no bar to substituting someone else this time. This was discussed and it was strongly advised that in the circumstances the chairman should not be one of the two people going but this was unilaterally ignored with a comment of taking any criticism that comes.

Sara may have decided her re-spray would be alright because she was writing an article but the arrangement was favour to a committee member in exchange for an article in the magazine. This is still a breach of the constitution and also brings into question the impartiality of the article. At the very least this should have been discussed at committee level and certainly the editor should have been made aware of the details. Instead it came to light from the membership and bad feeling comes of it.

Mark explained about the year's free membership offer and how this again was decided by the four without discussion with the rest of the committee with potentially disastrous financial consequences. Again, due committee process is not followed.

This all publically started when half the committee disagreed about the direction the club was being steered and the behaviour of the gang of four; I went public to warn members and was unconstitutionally barred from access to my job.

One thing is clear; it's not just me as they would previously have you believe - the "gang of four" can't get on with the rest of the committee either and are a law unto themselves. They need breaking up. We need to re-establish proper committee function.

Keep it behind closed doors? Full public discussion criticising me plastered all over the forum, members area and even the front page of the TTOC website seems Ok with them but as soon as the gang of four get criticised it's "damaging the club" and we should all shut up. Members have a right to know what's going on so they can effect change to a dysfunctional committee at the elections. Discussion is part of that process.


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## Gazzer

I have tried to keep out of it all this time, and have voiced no opinions either way even though I class John and Dani as friends. Today I did my usual role as BBQ caterer for the RR day James organised and we raised some bucks for charity from it which is good. Nick turned up out of the blue and it must have been awkward for him considering the latest hassles, so I made sure he was made welcome and even fed him  ( he paid for his food ) I had a brief chat in between doing the food and I could see he was feeling a tad like a fish out of water. Fair shout to him, he stayed till the end and took many photos of the event that I am looking forward to.
I have not changed my view from the first set of problems and my ongoing friendship with John & Dani, however I now would like everyone to stop posting on Peters topic and allow him to offer his responses to valid questions about the roll he has stood for without all of the tit for tat bickering that has hijacked his thread.
Chill al of you and let's see what happens at voting time and hopefully we as a club make the right choices for the future, and whatever the outcome.......accept it as that is the membership speaking!!!
Cheers Gaz


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## jamman

I hope reasoned debate can take place at the AGM with no one getting personnal because this will serve no purpose and anybody resorting to insults should be excluded from the meeting without appeal.

This infighting must stop. please


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## wja96

jamman said:


> I hope reasoned debate can take place at the AGM with no one getting personnal because this will serve no purpose and anybody resorting to insults should be excluded from the meeting without appeal.
> 
> This infighting must stop. please


I don't see how that's possible now to be honest. And I still say what's the point in having the AGM. All the web votes will have been cast and on last year's example only 25 people will come to the AGM anyway.

You won't be able to call new resolutions or debate anything without opening the voting back up on the Internet. The whole e-vote hasn't been thought through properly and I don't see how you can change the constitution (the e-vote is not in the constitution) without voting it through at a traditional AGM.

Plus given that I now potentially control a large number of phantom votes, the whole thing is a nonsense anyway.


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## rustyintegrale

wja96 said:


> Plus given that I now potentially control a large number of phantom votes, the whole thing is a nonsense anyway.


If you seriously intend to do that then I hope measures will be put in place to either stop it or remove you from the voting process altogether.

Previously you have been pretty critical about voters replacing the committee as some form of protest vote and I support that view. However you can't then expect to deliver a message like that and expect your argument to be taken seriously.

I just hope you were joking.


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## wja96

1 membership, 1 vote. If I have 51 memberships and support the club 51x more than you financially, why shouldn't I exercise 51 votes?


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## rustyintegrale

wja96 said:


> 1 membership, 1 vote. If I have 51 memberships and support the club 51x more than you financially, why shouldn't I exercise 51 votes?


If you don't know then maybe you should stand for a committee position... :wink:


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## wja96

rustyintegrale said:


> If you seriously intend to do that then I hope measures will be put in place to either stop it or remove you from the voting process altogether.


Very democratic. How exactly do you decide who can and can't e-vote? Same address? That rules out couples or families with more than one TT. Same credit card or Paypal account used? That rules out anyone who bought a membership as a gift. Same name? My dad loves his Mk I but he has the same name as me.

The e-vote won't work. It's WIDE OPEN to abuse. And should the web members really be allowed to vote on anything to do with the magazine because they don't pay for it? Like I say, you cannot sensibly stop this sort of vote rigging.


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## jamman

I firmly believe a few members on here could argue with themselves in the mirror :roll:


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## T3RBO

Back on topic please guys.


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## rustyintegrale

wja96 said:


> rustyintegrale said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you seriously intend to do that then I hope measures will be put in place to either stop it or remove you from the voting process altogether.
> 
> 
> 
> Very democratic. How exactly do you decide who can and can't e-vote? Same address? That rules out couples or families with more than one TT. Same credit card or Paypal account used? That rules out anyone who bought a membership as a gift. Same name? My dad loves his Mk I but he has the same name as me.
> 
> The e-vote won't work. It's WIDE OPEN to abuse. And should the web members really be allowed to vote on anything to do with the magazine because they don't pay for it? Like I say, you cannot sensibly stop this sort of vote rigging.
Click to expand...

I don't have the answers to the bulk of your questions because I have no knowledge of the systems put in place to deal with the e-vote.

Regarding the web members vote on anything to do with the magazine I think they're as much entitled as any other member. The web membership is exactly the same as a full membership but they forego the right to receive a printed copy individually. As the magazine is probably the biggest regular club expense then that discount is wholly reasonable. It was also introduced to encourage memberships from those on the forum who saw little value in receiving their own copy of the magazine and did not see the value in otherwise joining the TTOC.

For what it's worth, the magazine redesign might be instrumental in me upgrading to full membership since it might now be a lot more professional in terms of design and content. I have yet to see a copy, but by all accounts it represents a great improvement.

I'm sure the TTOC might see others upgrade as a result.


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## wja96

I though web members didn't even get online magazine access and only got a newsletter instead?


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## jamman

wja96 said:


> I though web members didn't even get online magazine access and only got a newsletter instead?


You though wrong, web members get online access to a selected number of pages from absoluTTe

Are you two just ignoring the mods request to get back OT ?


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## rustyintegrale

wja96 said:


> I though web members didn't even get online magazine access and only got a newsletter instead?


Yes they do. I think your confusion is exacerbated because the TTOC Forum where you access web content also refers to the mag as a 'newsletter'.

Anyway, I suppose we'd better get back on topic... :wink:


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## brittan

jamman said:


> wja96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I though web members didn't even get online magazine access and only got a newsletter instead?
> 
> 
> 
> You though wrong, web members get online mag access.
> 
> Are you two just ignoring the mods request to get back OT ?
Click to expand...

To be strictly correct web members get on line access to a selected number of pages from absoluTTe, sometimes referred to as the newsletter. 

BTW, section H of the rules and constitution says, in respect of General Meetings,_ "7. Every person with a right to be present shall be entitled to a single vote."_

_"right to be present"_ assigns the option but does not compel attendance at a General Meeting. 
_"entitled to a single vote"_ means just that but does not prescribe how that vote can be cast. In person, proxy and postal votes are/have already been permitted if not in writing in the constitution then by past custom and practice. 
I see nothing that does or should exclude on-line voting.

The rule also clearly states that each PERSON get one vote - not each MEMBERSHIP gets one vote. Hence one person who potentially has multiple memberships still only gets one vote. But the extra potential contribution to club funds is no doubt appreciated.


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## jamman

Duff info from me again....


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## Luvs my Cupra

Audiphil said:


> May TTOC members consider how the arguing on an open forum is potentially damaging the club ethos and putting off new members please.


I disagree. It is the behaviours of certain committee officers doing what they want that is damaging the club ethos, the very same thing they accused the last editor of doing.

I think many of these so called officers could do with some training on how how to behave as officers of a committee, which does not include breaching the Data Protection Act 1998 by reporting on someones membership just to have a little snipe at someone, it does not mean making decisions from the circle of pals either. If you can't trust someone to do that then I am damn sure you shouldnt trust them to be responsible in running a club on behalf of it's members.


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## T3RBO

I asked nicely, thread now locked.


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