# Aircraft & Airlines



## PaulS (Jun 15, 2002)

I am still suffering from a vile cold, that I picked up on an aircraft flight, over two weeks ago Â 

I learnt that most of the air on a plane is 'recycled', consequently there is very little throughput of fresh air, and a higher than normal carbon-dioxide level. Germs spread like wildfire.

WTF can't aircraft manufacturers build aircraft so that more fresh air is passed through the cabin? Surely it can't be that difficult - how about putting a few extra ventilation holes at the front and back of the aircraft? Â : Apparantly they recycle so much air (and germs) for 'cost' reasons .... it would cost too much to have fresh air .... well I'd much rather pay a bit more for the ticket and some fresh air rather than being poisoned each time I fly Â  There are a few pilots on here - anyone like to comment?

And a word of warning - never ever fly air Jamaica (connecting flight Antigua to NY) They flew us from Antigua to Ny via Grenada.

The plane was relatively empty on the Antigua - Grenada hop, but once it landed at Grenada, the plane filled up so full with Jamaicans and all their luggage (about 5 huge peices of hand luggage each) that the wheels of the plane nearly collapsed under the load. After sitting on the tarmac for 45 minutes without moving an inch, the pilot came on the tannoy and said "we is not taking off as we is too heavy" and "we is going to have to remove some cargo" And what cargo did they remove - our luggage! Consequently when we arrived at NY, the only clothes we had were the ones we stepped off the plane in. Our bags didn't arrive until a day later so that was one day of the holiday written off.

How do airlines get away with f*****g you around like this? Why couldn't they have told us what bags were removed??

And another thing - US customs. Because our bags weren't with us, customs have to 'open' the bags when they arrive. We'd bought two new Samsonites (not cheap) and they were locked with small padlocks. So you'd think customs would cut off the padlocks. No - cut off the zip loops instead! Dickheads! So now we have to get the bags repaired! Â 

The flight home via BA was fine though (paid for the bigger seats) but even on that flight we were delayed leaving. After taxiing out to the runway, the pilot said we would not be taking off but returning to the stand "for about 30 minutes" to be de-iced Â  
2 1/2 hours later we took off Â :

It makes you wonder if it's worth flying anymore. Rant over Â  ;D


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## BreTT (Oct 30, 2002)

On the other hand, had the pilot not returned to have the wings de-iced, you could have landed in the river like that plane out of Washington in the early 80's. I completely back the pilot on that one.

The luggage thing though, I agree! I have been to France from Edinburgh on five separate occassions, on on four of them, my luggage didn't arrive until the following day! Rather annoying to say the least!


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## PaulS (Jun 15, 2002)

> On the other hand, had the pilot not returned to have the wings de-iced, you could have landed in the river like that plane out of Washington in the early 80's. I completely back the pilot on that one.


Err ..... yes, I do appreciate that Â 

It's just that whenever they announce delays, and give time estimates, you just know it's going to take far far longer .... Why don't they ever over-estimate?


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## BreTT (Oct 30, 2002)

> Err ..... yes, I do appreciate that Â  It's just that whenever they announce delays, and give time estimates, you just know it's going to take far far longer .... Why don't they ever over-estimate?


Cos they are trying to keep the passengers docile!


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## PaulS (Jun 15, 2002)

And I love the way they say 'hope you enjoyed the flight' .... Does anybody actually enjoy flying?

Regarding breathing air more toxic than anything Saddam Hussein could come up with - Next time I'm on a plane I'm going to ask if I can have the oxygen mask on for the whole flight Â ;D


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

The recycled air is disgusting. One person is ill and everyone gets it. Imagine SARS or Ebola traveling like this...the epidemic will be horrendous.

At least if they could clean or replace the air filter after every flight...but they don't give a fuck...money above everything.

Only the pilots have fresh air these day. This explains why they hardly ever come out these days.

How do the cabin crew do this job? They must be ill all the time.


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## Dotti (Mar 9, 2003)

I was talking to somebody once who was an air hostess. They forgot to close the emergency door tightly, securely and properly. When they were high in the sky they had to fill the gaps with towels apparently and land at the nearest airport. I have only been told this. Whether or not it is true I do not know.


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## V6 TT (Sep 24, 2002)

.......they could add some air vents for fresh air to circulate but the presurised cabing wouldn't be and the plane would drop from the sky like a rock! :   ;D

I'm off flying pretty much all together at this point and have NO asspirations to go back up. I've never been overly imppressed with most of my flights no matter which opertor I've flown with and with recent events, well I'm just not so keen anymore! :-/


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## Dotti (Mar 9, 2003)

I have only flown the once. Â The first time I flew it was to the US. Â I enjoyed it but was very scared. Â Whilst over there I saw a documentary on television about planes crashing. On this occasion the description the person who was talking on this documentary said what had happened to this plane, also adding that Â the humans were in 'bits and pieces'.

I was a bundle of nervous travelling home with this on my mind. Â I haven't flown since. And now we go to France for holidays by car.

I often think about going abroad via a plane just for a couple of hours though.


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

Only flown once?


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## Dotti (Mar 9, 2003)

Yep just the once....but I am young and your old so you would have flown more anyway ;D


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

And more to do with fear of flying of course. 

But you are not alone anyway...there are a lot of people that afraid of flying.


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## PaulS (Jun 15, 2002)

And another thing Â  :

Just what is it that people are doing behind you, to rattle your seat back around so much? When I remove something from the seat pocket in front of me, or get out of my seat, I always take care to do it gently. But I always get people behind me that appear to be trying to wrench the seat from it's mountings!



> Whilst over there I saw a documentary on television about planes crashing.


I seem to have a morbid fascination in programs like this. Yet I have no fear in flying whatsoever. It's all down to statistics.


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## s3_lurker (May 6, 2002)

> And more to do with fear of flying of course. Â
> 
> But you are not alone anyway...there are a lot of people that afraid of flying.


It's the crashing that I'm afraid of!


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## garvin (May 7, 2002)

> WTF can't aircraft manufacturers build aircraft so that more fresh air is passed through the cabin? Surely it can't be that difficult - how about putting a few extra ventilation holes at the front and back of the aircraft? Â : Apparantly they recycle so much air (and germs) for 'cost' reasons .... it would cost too much to have fresh air .... well I'd much rather pay a bit more for the ticket and some fresh air rather than being poisoned each time I fly Â  There are a few pilots on here - anyone like to comment?


I'm not a pilot ........ just an aerospace engineer Â 

Firstly, you can't have simple ventilation holes 'cos, as has been said previously, the aircraft needs to be pressurised so a few holes would create a bit of a problem. Secondly, these things cruise at up to 40,000 feet - do you know how much oxygen the air (atmosphere) contains at this altitude .......... not a lot I can assure you Â . So you may be prepared to pay extra for 'fresh air' but you'd just find it damn hard to breathe properly Â


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## coupe-sport (May 7, 2002)

Its all to do with money as usual.

The air that comes into the cabin is fed from the engines (compressor bleed air), the more air bled off from the engine, the less efficient it is and so uses more fuel. Hence for money saving the airlines like to recycle cabin air as much as possible :-/

James.


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## Dotti (Mar 9, 2003)

> And more to do with fear of flying of course. Â
> 
> But you are not alone anyway...there are a lot of people that afraid of flying.


I am not really really nervous about flying as such. Â My biggest fear is if the plane was to crash into the sea and sink whilst I was trapped and alive.

Also when on my first flight and so far my last to date, we had bad turbulance coming into Miami. Â It didn't also help the fact the plane almost had to land right on the coastal run way. So sitting on the nice bumpy wing looking out gave me the impression that we were going to crash into the coast line but really when coming into land on the run way. Â Fantastic view which still remain in my memory of gorgeous blue water, lots of yaghts and wonderful coastal line.

Once we got there though I was happy. Â


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## jgoodman00 (May 6, 2002)

> And another thing Â  :
> 
> Just what is it that people are doing behind you, to rattle your seat back around so much? When I remove something from the seat pocket in front of me, or get out of my seat, I always take care to do it gently. But I always get people behind me that appear to be trying to wrench the seat from it's mountings!


Yup, & also:
I fly to scotland every few weeks; a 50 minute flight, of which approx 20 minutes is at cruise height without seat-belt sign on. I have made this flight on several occaisions when to joey infront has decided to 'recline' their seat, as if to sleep. Arrgghhh!



> I seem to have a morbid fascination in programs like this. Yet I have no fear in flying whatsoever. It's all down to statistics.


Ditto, I absolutely love these kind of programs & dont fear flying. I like the adrenalin buzz of bumpy landings!

Having said that, I read a Virgin Atlantic plane turned back 2:10 into its flight from London to JFK due to a smell of burning being reported in the cabin. I think that would be very scary, knowing you have 2:10 to safety, although I guess they could have diverted to Shannon had the problem worsened!


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## Dotti (Mar 9, 2003)

> Ditto, I absolutely love these kind of programs & dont fear flying. I like the adrenalin buzz of bumpy landings!


You pair of hell raisers ;D


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## PaulS (Jun 15, 2002)

> Ditto, I absolutely love these kind of programs & dont fear flying. I like the adrenalin buzz of bumpy landings!


Did you see the one about the DC10 that crash landed at Sioux city following the loss of it's hydraulics? It was amazing that they got it too the airport at all - they could only steer it using engine thrust!

I hope we are not putting you off flying for good, Abi Â ;D


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

What is the meaning of 2:10?


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## jdn (Aug 26, 2002)

> ...but they don't give a fuck...money above everything.


Too true. Air accident investigators have long pointed out that if everyone faced the rear of the plane and had decent seat belts rather than lap belts the number of people survivng moderate crashes on landing and take off would be significantly higher.

The airlines however know the cost of people dying on their planes every now and then is less than the cost of refitting all their aircraft to improve passenger safety - so they don't bother.


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## Dotti (Mar 9, 2003)

> I hope we are not putting you off flying for good, Abi Â ;D


It's OK . I'll just bite my lip and think of you lot with all your horror stories when I next fly. Which will only be my second time in my whole life . But from what I remember it was a great sensation preparing for take off. The speed on that run way is unbelievable though. I never thought anything cold go so fast.


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## SteveS (Oct 20, 2003)

> Too true. Â Air accident investigators have long pointed out that if everyone faced the rear of the plane and had decent seat belts rather than lap belts the number of people survivng moderate crashes on landing and take off would be significantly higher. Â
> 
> The airlines however know the cost of people dying on their planes every now and then is less than the cost of refitting all their aircraft to improve passenger safety - so they don't bother.


And smoke hoods, retrofitting 16g seats, kapton wiring etc....(although they may have done the 16g seats by now and I'm not sure of the latest on the kapton wiring thing)

Theres even a term iirc "tombstone technology" referring to the fact that they sum up the cost of lives (in the insurance or damages they have to pay) and balance that against the cost of the safety measure that would have prevented the deaths...

Vlastan, I should imagine its 2 hours 10 minutes.......


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## phil (May 7, 2002)

The reason the air's recycled nowadays is because nobody's allowed to smoke on plane any more. When people smoked they had to pump fresh air into the cabin and extract the smoke. After they banned smoking they stopped having to do that (it costs money). As a result there's a lower percentage of oxygen in the air you breathe, especially towards the end of long flights, which is why you're more likely to sleep and wake up with a headache.


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

> The reason the air's recycled nowadays is because nobody's allowed to smoke on plane any more. When people smoked they had to pump fresh air into the cabin and extract the smoke. After they banned smoking they stopped having to do that (it costs money). As a result there's a lower percentage of oxygen in the air you breathe, especially towards the end of long flights, which is why you're more likely to sleep and wake up with a headache.


Do you suggest that they re-introduce smoking again? It was great not to have any smoking any longer, but what a price to pay? So in all cases we breath shit instead of fresh air.


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## Guy (May 13, 2002)

> The reason the air's recycled nowadays is because nobody's allowed to smoke on plane any more. When people smoked they had to pump fresh air into the cabin and extract the smoke. After they banned smoking they stopped having to do that (it costs money). As a result there's a lower percentage of oxygen in the air you breathe, especially towards the end of long flights, which is why you're more likely to sleep and wake up with a headache.


Apologies for this...
Halitosis, farts, sweaty moist odours, smelly feet - all recycled for everyone. Let's have a bit more fresh air please.


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## PaulS (Jun 15, 2002)

Guy


> Apologies for this...
> Halitosis, farts, sweaty moist odours, smelly feet - all recycled for everyone.


...and infectious diseases too Â 

PaulS


> WTF can't aircraft manufacturers build aircraft so that more fresh air is passed through the cabin?





> The reason the air's recycled nowadays is because nobody's allowed to smoke on plane any more. When people smoked they had to pump fresh air into the cabin and extract the smoke. After they banned smoking they stopped having to do that (it costs money). As a result there's a lower percentage of oxygen in the air you breathe, especially towards the end of long flights, which is why you're more likely to sleep and wake up with a headache.


So they could put cleaner air through the cabin, but, surprise surprise, they don't, because it would cost them money. It's cheaper to poison passengers.

I can see a luxury niche here for the airlines - "Fresh air flights. It's as clean inside as it is outside"


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## Dotti (Mar 9, 2003)

> Apologies for this...
> Halitosis, farts, sweaty moist odours, smelly feet - all recycled for everyone. Â Let's have a bit more


Ewwwwww STUFFY Â I hate doctor's surgeries for this reason and more!


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## jgoodman00 (May 6, 2002)

> Too true. Â Air accident investigators have long pointed out that if everyone faced the rear of the plane and had decent seat belts rather than lap belts the number of people survivng moderate crashes on landing and take off would be significantly higher.


I am not so sure about this. 
Some program I saw on discovery said the human body can withstand high lateral g-loadings, but only very small longitudinal g-loadings. As a result, some company is building planes which have highly-flexible, suspended floors to absorb this shock.


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## garvin (May 7, 2002)

> Too true. Â Air accident investigators have long pointed out that if everyone faced the rear of the plane and had decent seat belts rather than lap belts the number of people survivng moderate crashes on landing and take off would be significantly higher. Â
> 
> The airlines however know the cost of people dying on their planes every now and then is less than the cost of refitting all their aircraft to improve passenger safety - so they don't bother.


Moderate crashes maybe ....... but there aren't many of them. When a plane goes down, it goes down big time with the airframe pretty much disintegrating. For the so called 'moderate' crashes the problem is fire more than impact so all the rear facing seat bit is pretty academic in reality.

For new planes it wouldn't cost the airlines a premium to install rear facing seats. The airlines have done research into this only to find, unfortunately, that the vast majority of passengers don't want to face backwards!!

Put it in perspective though - it's still the safest way to travel!


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## jgoodman00 (May 6, 2002)

> For new planes it wouldn't cost the airlines a premium to install rear facing seats. The airlines have done research into this only to find, unfortunately, that the vast majority of passengers don't want to face backwards!!


I guess not many people are fazed at looking 'up' a plane, but the prospect of looking 'down' it would probably worry them significantly.


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## moley (May 14, 2002)

The solution to the stale air problem is simple - everyone take on a few balloons with their own air and gradually release it during the flight - into their own noses obviously - or have I found a flaw in this novel suggestion ;D

Anyway, I love flying. Stats and all that show it's still one of the safest form of transport - honest Abi ;D

Sorry to hear about your probs Paul - hope you enjoyed your hols anyway.

Moley


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## Dotti (Mar 9, 2003)

> The solution to the stale air problem is simple - everyone take on a few balloons with their own air and gradually release it during the flight - into their own noses obviously - or have I found a flaw in this novel suggestion Â ;D
> 
> Anyway, I love flying. Â Stats and all that show it's still one of the safest form of transport - honest Abi Â ;D
> 
> Moley


Can I take some helium please ;D


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## MonsTTer (Dec 2, 2003)

> I'm not a pilot ........ just an aerospace engineer Â


Me too, mate! And my car is Denim Blue too!
Nice coincidence, isnt' it?


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## ColwynC (Sep 8, 2003)

> I am not really really nervous about flying as such. Â My biggest fear is if the plane was to crash into the sea and sink whilst I was trapped and alive.
> 
> Â


Don't have to worry about that Abi, chances are you would be trapped but not very alive. I always have a little laugh to myself about the drawing on the Emergency Card showing everyone disembarking down the little slides from an aircraft floating serenly on the ogin...Pretty sure that the chances are that when the aircraft hits the sea at 300 mph the wings are going to get ripped off and the aircraft will cartwheel at least once before sinking. Can't worry about it can you. When your numbers up it is up and there is too much world out there to see while your here to sit at home. Me I'm of to Algiers on Friday the 13th!!!!!!!!! I like living on the edge I guess.


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## BreTT (Oct 30, 2002)

> I always have a little laugh to myself about the drawing on the Emergency Card showing everyone disembarking down the little slides from an aircraft floating serenly on the ogin...Pretty sure that the chances are that when the aircraft hits the sea at 300 mph the wings are going to get ripped off and the aircraft will cartwheel at least once before sinking. Â


Unless you crash on take off over water of course. You'll only be doing 200mph and won't be quite as far into the air...


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## garvin (May 7, 2002)

> Pretty sure that the chances are that when the aircraft hits the sea at 300 mph the wings are going to get ripped off and the aircraft will cartwheel at least once before sinking.


Quite right. Most aircraft have engines slung under the wings and, even with a pilot having full control, will have to 'land' on water at ~150mph. As soon as the engines hit the water .... wham ...... they're off with most of the wings. The main fuselage cannot really withstand an impact at this speed and rather than 'cartwheeling' will disintegrate ............ so exiting the aircraft is not much of a problem ............ staying in one piece (whether facing forward of aft) is more of a challenge!


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

> Quite right. Most aircraft have engines slung under the wings and, even with a pilot having full control, will have to 'land' on water at ~150mph. As soon as the engines hit the water .... wham ...... they're off with most of the wings. The main fuselage cannot really withstand an impact at this speed and rather than 'cartwheeling' will disintegrate ............ so exiting the aircraft is not much of a problem ............ staying in one piece (whether facing forward of aft) is more of a challenge!


So why is the safety instruction include this car that you slide down the doors? Also what is the point of the inflatables under the seat?


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## MonsTTer (Dec 2, 2003)

Well, a lot of Mediterranean airports' runways point towards the sea...think about the old one in Athens, or Istanbul, or Punta Raisi in Palermo.
Sure, Vlastan, should you crash during take-off at the new Venizelos Airport in Athens, you wouldn't need lifevests!


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## garvin (May 7, 2002)

> So why is the safety instruction include this car that you slide down the doors? Also what is the point of the inflatables under the seat?


The inflatable slides are more use when on land - they speed up the evacuation of an aircraft when it has had a bit of a bad landing etc and the main risk is fire. The lifejackets are not much use - can't remember the last time, if ever, that they were actually used during/after an aircraft crash ............. they just make you 'feel' safer.

In fact I think it is safer to do a 'wheels up' controlled crash landing on terra firma than on water .............. providing you land on tarmac or similar and have enough 'runway'. The airframe is much more likely to stay reasonably intact.


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

False sense of safety then? I see.


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## PaulS (Jun 15, 2002)

> Also what is the point of the inflatables under the seat?


A free gift from the airline to take home after you've crashed


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

> A free gift from the airline to take home after you've crashed Â


Provided that you survived! ;D

I always wanted to take the whistle with me as a souvenir. So maybe next time. 

I really don't understand why they are wasting our time with the safety instructions. Last time I was seating by the emergency exit and they had to give me instructions on how to open the hatch/door. Will the inflatable under the seat work as a parachute as well? ;D


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## coupe-sport (May 7, 2002)

thats one thing that pisses me off - look around your average flight and they have stuck the most clueless twats next to the emergency exits (not related to your post V). If i cant sit next to one of them, i'd rather have someone there who is at least capable of understanding and performing simple instructions


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## MonsTTer (Dec 2, 2003)

Once a friend of mine, a glider owner and pilot, bought a sports parachute during a business trip in the US. He still laughs when thinking at the Customs Officer's looks!


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

> thats one thing that pisses me off - look around your average flight and they have stuck the most clueless twats next to the emergency exits (not related to your post V). If i cant sit next to one of them, i'd rather have someone there who is at least capable of understanding and performing simple instructions Â


Actually I had to pay more to seat at the emergency exit seat. They charge more for them in many charter flights, but the regulations say that you must be capable to operate the door mechanism. So if you have a plaster in your hand they may refuse you to sit on them.


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

> Once a friend of mine, a glider owner and pilot, bought a sports parachute during a business trip in the US. He still laughs when thinking at the Customs Officer's looks!


They may think that he was a terrorist and was planning to bomb the plane and then jump out. ;D


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## phil (May 7, 2002)

> They may think that he was a terrorist and was planning to bomb the plane and then jump out. ;D


And once again, vlastan states the obvious. 
I never heard of having to pay more for an exit seat though. Although the one and only time in living memory I've used a charter I was shocked at the lack of space. Cheap flight though.


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## PaulS (Jun 15, 2002)

> Provided that you survived! Â ;D


 :

Coupe-Sport


> look around your average flight and they have stuck the most clueless twats next to the emergency exits


Whilst we were sitting on the plane at the stop-off point at Grenada, this woman got on the plane, came up to where we were sitting, and started waving her boarding card around, making all sorts of fuss insisting that I was sitting in 'her' seat. When I pointed out to her that the boarding card she was waving around was for American airlines, and that we were infact on an Air Jamaica plane, she just walked off in a huff, not a word of apology....


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## vlastan (May 6, 2002)

> And once again, vlastan states the obvious. Â
> I never heard of having to pay more for an exit seat though. Although the one and only time in living memory I've used a charter I was shocked at the lack of space. Cheap flight though.


No...you silly boy. The obvious would be that he was carrying the parachute because he didn't trust the airline/plane.


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## Antwerpman (Nov 4, 2002)

I was on a long haul flight to Mauritius (unfortunately business not pleasure) and some dirty barsteward sh!t all over the toilet floor during the night, and then some other poor unsuspecting passenger stepped in it and walked it all the way up the isle!!!

Not pleasant to say the least, but I guess the airline saved in breakfasts!!

Cant believe the mentality of some people


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## SteveS (Oct 20, 2003)

> The inflatable slides are more use when on land - they speed up the evacuation of an aircraft when it has had a bit of a bad landing etc and the main risk is fire. The lifejackets are not much use - can't remember the last time, if ever, that they were actually used during/after an aircraft crash ............. they just make you 'feel' safer.
> 
> In fact I think it is safer to do a 'wheels up' controlled crash landing on terra firma than on water .............. providing you land on tarmac or similar and have enough 'runway'. The airframe is much more likely to stay reasonably intact.


So they provide lifejackets which it appears are likely to be about as much use as a chocolate teapot, whilst steadfastly refusing to provide smoke-hoods...... :


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## SteveS (Oct 20, 2003)

> thats one thing that pisses me off - look around your average flight and they have stuck the most clueless twats next to the emergency exits (not related to your post V). If i cant sit next to one of them, i'd rather have someone there who is at least capable of understanding and performing simple instructions Â


What does a clueless twat look like then? 

But I agree, they don't really take enough care about this IME; in extremis many lives could be saved by getting the emergency exits functioning in good time, conversely a lot of people could die due to one persons incompetance :'(.


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## bajers (Nov 22, 2003)

Two worst flights I have been on was a flight from Cairo to the Sudan by Sudanese Air last year...

Honestly, the plane was so old it was falling to fucking pieces, literally.

The following week, the same plane on the same flight crashed killing all on board - gospel truth!!

One before that was with Continental Airlines flying from Guam to Truk lagoon in the Pacific. It was a modern plane (737) with American pilots with balls the size of baboons...

We landed in a full blown tropical rainstorm in the middle of the night. The full monty- rain lashing down and gale force winds. Short runway with a very, very low approach over the sea.

It took the pilots 3 attempts before they 'crash landed' half on the runway and half off..

They didn't have enough fuel to turn back, there was no alternate airfield so it was shit or bust.

I felt like friggin' Tom Hanks and Winston all rolled into one...

Buggers got over the runway, must have been 20 feet in the air and just switched the ignition off!

Everyone was screaming, oxygen masks came out with the impact and I swear I saw a bit of an axle come up through the floor (slight exageration with that one).

Jeez, I was shit scared, but I quite enjoy flying really. It's the crashing I am not to keen on..


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## christtopher (May 7, 2002)

Anyone remember the Eddie Izzard story about life jackets on airplanes?

Refering to the instructions on topping up the life jacket with air, he says "I don't want 'top-up' I want f***ing 'stays-up'" ;D


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