# Exhaust Manifold - Any other options at all on the market?



## Nem (Feb 14, 2005)

So I know of the following:

Chinafold / Badger 5 exhaust manifold:










Relentless V4:










Franken Turbo:










Is there anything else on the market, at all, which you can currently buy that anyone knows of?

I've currently got the chinafold fitted but am having issues with misfires at 6k revs on cylinder two, which seems to be documented around the web with this (JBS initially) designed manifold. So I'm looking at if there are any other options available. I'm put off the Relentless one, if they can't make one reliable by version 4 then I'm not buying one basically.

Anyone?


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## NickG (Aug 15, 2013)

I can't believe how hard it is to get a manifold on this car! Do you know if other 1.8T engines have a selection of manifolds that us TT'ers don't?

It can't be that hard, when you consider Japspeed made a reliable manifold for my old EP3 type-r for £230!!


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## Nem (Feb 14, 2005)

4th option, eBay shiny thing:


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## NickG (Aug 15, 2013)

To be honest that looks better then the Frakenturbo one, which kind of looks like Dave made it, in his shed. That being said I'm sure it doesn't perform better!


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## cam69 (Dec 22, 2011)

Nem said:


> 4th option, eBay shiny thing:


That looks like the relentless v3 they were no good either as they crack. Tsr made a really good manifold for ko4 but it was close to £1000


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## Matt B (Apr 8, 2007)

Look beyond the K04 and there are plenty of manifolds


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## Nem (Feb 14, 2005)

Matt B said:


> Look beyond the K04 and there are plenty of manifolds


I get that yeah 

But I've just bought a new K04 and am sticking with it


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## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

Ive seen them.. but

What about the super special alloy manifold that is fitted to oem 222 bhp+ 4 pot engines and not to lesser 1.8T engines?
Its a different spec alloy.
No I couldnt be bothered looking it up :lol:

Im just wondering is it anything like the recirc valve , where maybe the upgraded oem one isnt any worse than a forge after all?


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## Matt B (Apr 8, 2007)

Fair enough - just saying


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## Nem (Feb 14, 2005)

Matt B said:


> Fair enough - just saying


I know, I know


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## peartcart12 (May 24, 2015)

Hi Nem, i just had my relentless v4 turn up yesterday, i cant stress how much research and multi forum research i have done and i could not find any negative things about the v4, all i read was complete positive things, the v4 has been out for over a year now, so surely if the v4 is having the same problems as the v3 then it would of been all over the forums by now


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## Gonzalo1495 (Oct 13, 2014)

If only the V4 was made out of the same material as the chinafold/B5 manifolds [smiley=bigcry.gif]


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## Madmax199 (Jun 14, 2015)

Nem, you already have the best/strongest maniold available for the K04 frame turbo. Your issue (which was a known one) is with the collector merge beeing too crowded for the flow that the runners allow. The solution is to port the collector to a point where this is no longer an issue (there is plenty of material to really go through that collector). I believe you did some massaging but it was obviously not enough. My advice would be to pull the manifold and port is properly, and enjoy the top and most viable option available right now (all the top performing K04 cars are on this manifold, mine being one of them).

Here are some pics of the kind of porting needed. The collector need to be open throughout (I stopped at 1mm away from the bolt hole), and the center dividers knocked down completely.

Before porting:









After porting:


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## Gonzalo1495 (Oct 13, 2014)

Madmax199 said:


> Nem, you already have the best/strongest maniold available for the K04 frame turbo. Your issue (which was a known one) is with the collector merge beeing too crowded for the flow that the runners allow. The solution is to port the collector to a point where this is no longer an issue (there is plenty of material to really go through that collector). I believe you did some massaging but it was obviously not enough. My advice would be to pull the manifold and port is properly, and enjoy the top and most viable option available right now (all the top performing K04 cars are on this manifold, mine being one of them).
> 
> Here are some pics of the kind of porting needed. The collector need to be open throughout (I stopped at 1mm away from the bolt hole), and the center dividers knocked down completely.
> 
> ...


I'll pay you $100 to do it for me and paint it red :lol:


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## Madmax199 (Jun 14, 2015)

Gonzalo1495 said:


> If only the V4 was made out of the same material as the chinafold/B5 manifolds [smiley=bigcry.gif]


Not possible, the cast JBS clones are made of a compound of various selected alloys. The tubular maniolds are just off the shelves schedule pipes welded together. 8)


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## Gonzalo1495 (Oct 13, 2014)

Madmax199 said:


> Gonzalo1495 said:
> 
> 
> > If only the V4 was made out of the same material as the chinafold/B5 manifolds [smiley=bigcry.gif]
> ...


So it would be impossible to get a manifold with runners that long cast of a similar compound? If so, how come out of curiousity?


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## Madmax199 (Jun 14, 2015)

Matt B said:


> Look beyond the K04 and there are plenty of manifolds


True statement Matt, but not all of them are good. For example the PPT cast is the only manifold I'd run if going outside of the factory KKK turbo line. BTW, the K04 hybrids are quite capable, I get similar numbers to what is posted in your sig with mine. Cheers!


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## Gonzalo1495 (Oct 13, 2014)

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobyga ... _manifolds
Also want to share this article by garrett. It goes over the differences of the two styles


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## Madmax199 (Jun 14, 2015)

Gonzalo1495 said:


> Madmax199 said:
> 
> 
> > Gonzalo1495 said:
> ...


Last I checked, you can make a mold and cast pretty much anything you want. So a long runner cast manifold is possible, but the reason why anyone would want to do that is intriguing to me. The longer the runners or tube, the laggier it gets and the powerband tend to shift to the right.

The reason the tubular welded can't have the best compund alloy is price, and they're using pipes readily available (pipes are not made the exotic compounds, you have to use something like staright SS, titanium, iconel etc.).


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## Madmax199 (Jun 14, 2015)

Gonzalo1495 said:


> http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/log_style_vs_equal_length_manifolds
> Also want to share this article by garrett. It goes over the differences of the two styles


The article is old and compares stock log style cast manifold with aftermarket performance welded tubular ones. It is nkt comparing performance oriented aftermarket cast with performance tubulars. If you look at a good modern performance cast manifold, they don't leave anything on the table in terms of performance vs a comparable tubular unit. Pag Parts Tuning (PPT) comes to mind, Arnold makes the best BT kits for our platform by a long shot, and his cast manifold is a amazing (btw, if PPT went through the trouble of casting a manifold, it should be the dead giveaway of what design is superior overall).

Here is the first thread that popped online showing the ppt 1.8t manifold 
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthrea ... he-Talking)


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## Gonzalo1495 (Oct 13, 2014)

Madmax199 said:


> Gonzalo1495 said:
> 
> 
> > So it would be impossible to get a manifold with runners that long cast of a similar compound? If so, how come out of curiousity?
> ...


That's what I figured. It's surprising though, considering how expensive aftermarket parts are for the 1.8T, I would imagine someone would have jumped on a definitive, cast high-flow manifold by now. There's certainly a market for that.


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## Gonzalo1495 (Oct 13, 2014)

Madmax199 said:


> http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthrea ... he-Talking)


That is true quality! Wow


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## Madmax199 (Jun 14, 2015)

Gonzalo1495 said:


> That's what I figured. It's surprising though, considering how expensive aftermarket parts are for the 1.8T, I would imagine someone would have jumped on a definitive, cast high-flow manifold by now. There's certainly a market for that.


Well, JBS did! They made a small mistake by keeping the collector a bit crowded (specifically where the two cylinders are merging into one runner exit). What killed them is their refusals to admit there was a problem, and not taking the necessary steps to fix it. Reworking the mold or simply doing some finishing CNC to the collector would have made the manifold a heavy hitter.

The blueprint is out there (luckily for the community the manufacturing was outsourced in China and they will sell to anyone), get a unit from China and properly go through the collector cleaning. FrankenTurbo does it to offer with its kits, Badger5 offered the service (I believe he discontinued it because of the lack of demand), I did it, others did it, it's not rocket science.


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## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

Madmax199 said:


> Gonzalo1495 said:
> 
> 
> > That's what I figured. It's surprising though, considering how expensive aftermarket parts are for the 1.8T, I would imagine someone would have jumped on a definitive, cast high-flow manifold by now. There's certainly a market for that.
> ...


I did message Bill about this and he claimed that there was a heck of a lot of porting to do and it wasn't simplistic by the sounds of it although I'm open to an explanation / elaboration. That would be brill!


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## Madmax199 (Jun 14, 2015)

TT Tom TT said:


> I did message Bill about this and he claimed that there was a heck of a lot of porting to do and it wasn't simplistic by the sounds of it although I'm open to an explanation / elaboration. That would be brill!


Bill is correct, it's a lot of work to manually port. I did mine and another one, and promised to my sanity that I would not tackle this again. Just too labor intensive with manual tools. However with some time and patience it can be done by anyone. A run through a CNC machine would be much easier and quicker (that's what FrankenTurbo does with it).

If you want to tackle it, it's simple. Open the collector cross section to 47mm-48mm, knock down the middle divider, and open the married runner as much as you can (collector side). In mine I also port matched the runner entrances, but that's just shooting for perfection. I added some pics below.



Gonzalo1495 said:


> That is true quality! Wow


BTW, the JBS clone/Chinafold after a bit of work is not too shabby itself (baby PPT). The material is well thought out, and the thing is built like a tank. I'm happy I didn't leave it to chance and gamble on what seem like the easy choice (a welded tubular manifold). I put this thing through hell and it doesn't even flinch... well done JBS engineers.




























Runner entrance before and after:


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## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

Madmax199 said:


> TT Tom TT said:
> 
> 
> > I did message Bill about this and he claimed that there was a heck of a lot of porting to do and it wasn't simplistic by the sounds of it although I'm open to an explanation / elaboration. That would be brill!
> ...


I'm so jealous... Nice mani'  I've got an ad' up in the wanting to buy section and I'm praying a B5 mani' will crop up eventually. Am I being a little ambitious?


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## hang your idols (Jul 8, 2013)

Matt B said:


> Look beyond the K04 and there are plenty of manifolds


Any links please,Matt?


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## LOWTT225 (Oct 13, 2008)

I would buy a relentless V4 as it looks like a similar material to the 2 tsr manifolds I tried, I never had a problem with the V3 I fitted it did the job and made good figures and was a hell of a lot cheaper than the tsr one that just would not fit.


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## Madmax199 (Jun 14, 2015)

hang your idols said:


> Matt B said:
> 
> 
> > Look beyond the K04 and there are plenty of manifolds
> ...


Question is not for me but here are some popular BT options here in the USA. The PPT it on top of the food chain for an overall solid option -- while if you have project that will only see the drag strip or going for a record, the FFE tubular sidewinders are the top choice. Both shops are local to me in New York and I've seen and being around their work and products, therefore I have firsthand experience with the products, PPT is the king of 1.8t BT exhaust manifolds by a long shot!

PPT
http://pagparts.com/popup_image.php?pID=700

CTS T3 top mount (top mounts are a heat fiasco)
http://www.ctsturbo.com/cart/products/C ... 153-2.html

ATP
http://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchant.mv ... _Code=VVWM

FFE top mount tubular (can be made v-banded or with the flange of your choice)
http://store.forcefedengineering.com/mo ... t_Topmount

FFE divided T4 sidewinder tubular dual external wastegate (this is the choice of the really big turbo projects as it allows to bolt any size turbo your mind can imagine) 
http://store.forcefedengineering.com/mo ... w_Topmount

PS: there are plenty of other options still but these are the most used over the years in the US


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## Madmax199 (Jun 14, 2015)

LOWTT225 said:


> I would buy a relentless V4 as it looks like a similar material to the 2 tsr manifolds I tried, I never had a problem with the V3 I fitted it did the job and made good figures and was a hell of a lot cheaper than the tsr one that just would not fit.


Out of curiosity how long have you used the V3 and what kind of environment (daily driving or weekend toy)? There are too much evidence of them failing to ignore the fact that the V3, V2, and original are certified junk -- they should have labeled them J1, J2 ,J3 , and J4. Nobody can challenge your own success but others (in numbers) have had a different luck.

The V4 is a different story, it hasn't been out long enough, and the number of active users that would still take the chance after relentless poor track record makes the amount of manifold in use a very small sample size. Still nobody can blame something until there are reported failures, so the V4 gets a pass... for now. Grabbing the popcorn on this one because history likes to repeat itself and you can't cheat physics, maybe relentless have figured a way to build a tubular welded manifold capable of good longevity in high heat cycle applications. Excuse my skepticism, I've been in this turbo car game for way too long, and pretty much have witnessed what can work, and what is prone to failure. I hope I'm wrong (been right 3 times before with relentless) and the V4 is a viable option for the community.


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## Matt B (Apr 8, 2007)

Madmax199 said:


> Matt B said:
> 
> 
> > Look beyond the K04 and there are plenty of manifolds
> ...


I agree there are good and bad all over - I run the same manifold as Jamman t25 and they are very reliable - I cracked one but that was due to a number of factors - not least having no support on my downpipe so all the weight was hanging off it.

The K04 hybrids are very impressive but peak dyno figures are no comparison of performance - you may get similar figures in peak but the area under the curve will be very different


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## Nem (Feb 14, 2005)

Madmax199 said:


> Nem, you already have the best/strongest maniold available for the K04 frame turbo...


So just for clarity then, the item I've got currently can be worked to remove this cylinder two misfire?

We placed the gasket onto the collector and the opening matched the opening of the gasket, is there then benefit to opening it up more as surely it would just be a restriction then with the opening in the gasket?

It's obviously such a huge job to remove it to then almost go blindly into machining it and then refit to only then find out if it's done the trick or if it would need removing yet again.


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## Madmax199 (Jun 14, 2015)

Matt B said:


> Madmax199 said:
> 
> 
> > Matt B said:
> ...


No real argument there, the area under the curve will definitely be different. The hybrids will be stronger early and loosing steam up top, while the bigger snails will tend to to be weak down low and be really strong on the far right of the chart. Each having their use and purposes...

Here is a RR showing my curves profile at 27/28 psi of boost. WHP does taper up top, but not as much as conventional BT wisdom will believe. I have yet to add intake cams, which will help sustain peak TQ a significant amount, and help the WHP curve stay ramping even more impressively than it does now (for a peanut-sized turbo at least :mrgreen. As you said, the hybrids are quite impressive because curves like that (peak or area under the curve) were exclusively reserved to BT upgrades:


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## Madmax199 (Jun 14, 2015)

Nem said:


> So just for clarity then, the item I've got currently can be worked to remove this cylinder two misfire?
> 
> We placed the gasket onto the collector and the opening matched the opening of the gasket, is there then benefit to opening it up more as surely it would just be a restriction then with the opening in the gasket?
> 
> It's obviously such a huge job to remove it to then almost go blindly into machining it and then refit to only then find out if it's done the trick or if it would need removing yet again.


That's correct, what you have now can be worked to remove the cylinder 2 "misfire" (really exhaust reversion keeping that cyl filled with exhaust gases due to the restriction, and potentially preventing the valves from fully closing).

I run the same manifold on my record-setting hybrid, member Spartiati that hold the F23 record, run this manifold (he also experienced the "misfires" at first and cured it with porting), countless reworked units have been sold by Badger5 and FrankenTurbo, all running on hybrids with no issues. So, it's not a blind Job... it's rather fixing a poor initial port work.

Now, you have to remember, the JBS unit was casted to be a performance replacement that works with the standard turbo. Therefore the collector opening is modeling a stock turbine inlet. To port it, you need toss the standard gasket and bore the collector to 47-48mm (as I provided pics for). So what's the solution for gasket if you bore over standard gasket opening? Custom, like you see in the pics, or run gasketless. Many run gasketless as it is the most sound solution (providing that both surfaces are checked to be true). I choose to make my own gasket because I could (was easier to me than having the manifold flange decked straight), but both options works. I made a copper gasket at first, which is fine for the low EGT I see on E85, but revised it and made a Stainless Steel one that will survive much higher temperatures in case I ran regular pump fuel one day.

Here is a link to one of my threads where all the details about doing a hybrid, Chinafold porting, and gasket making is archived.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.p ... Madmax-way)-gt-gt-gt-gt-gt-gt


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## Nem (Feb 14, 2005)

Thanks for the extra info. I'll see what I decide to do, but reworking this item seems to best option then if the issues can definitely be resolved


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## peartcart12 (May 24, 2015)

Nem said:


> Thanks for the extra info. I'll see what I decide to do, but reworking this item seems to best option then if the issues can definitely be resolved


Hi Nem, really gutted for you m8, especially after reading how much of your time and effort it took to put it on, the god dam company that sold it should be libel in a perfect world, anyway hope you get it sorted


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## Nem (Feb 14, 2005)

I know yeah, but at least it wouldn't be quite as bad a job this time. We made sure to use a brand new turbo support bracket and bolt so that should come out this time to allow the access. But it would still be subframe off and possibly transfer box and then 13 inaccessible nuts to undo and then redo again.


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## LOWTT225 (Oct 13, 2008)

Madmax199 said:


> LOWTT225 said:
> 
> 
> > I would buy a relentless V4 as it looks like a similar material to the 2 tsr manifolds I tried, I never had a problem with the V3 I fitted it did the job and made good figures and was a hell of a lot cheaper than the tsr one that just would not fit.
> ...


It was my daily driver and driven hard for 2 years without an issue. The standard manifolds crack on these engines hence why I changed mine.


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## Madmax199 (Jun 14, 2015)

LOWTT225 said:


> Madmax199 said:
> 
> 
> > LOWTT225 said:
> ...


Ok, two years (on a standard Turbo I'm assuming). Makes sense as they're not surviving for long on tuned hybrids.

You have a good point that many stock manifold crack around the collector area with age. If these stock cast manifolds that are like fortresses compared to welded tubular manifolds, I wonder what the faith of any tubular manifold is going to be? ... kind of the point I've been trying to get across to people here. I have dedicated track car that only see track duty, yet I bypassed the possible performance advantage of the tubular design to run a cast design. It's intriguing why people think that this design is suited for their daily commuters for long term use.


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## LOWTT225 (Oct 13, 2008)

Ok, two years (on a standard Turbo I'm assuming). Makes sense as they're not surviving for long on tuned hybrids.

You have a good point that many stock manifold crack around the collector area with age. If these stock cast manifolds that are like fortresses compared to welded tubular manifolds, I wonder what the faith of any tubular manifold is going to be? ... kind of the point I've been trying to get across to people here. I have dedicated track car that only see track duty, yet I bypassed the possible performance advantage of the tubular design to run a cast design. It's intriguing why people think that this design is suited for their daily commuters for long term use.[/quote]

Hybrid turbo from turbo dynamics MD421 pushing out 330/340 bhp! :roll:


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## Madmax199 (Jun 14, 2015)

LOWTT225 said:


> Hybrid turbo from turbo dynamics MD421 pushing out 330/340 bhp! :roll:


Ok, good for you, you must have landed on a unicorn... for two years! I can find multiple examples of similar hybrid combos without such good luck. An exception doesn't make the rule, if it did, relentless wouldn't be on their 4th version. :roll:


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## jamman (May 6, 2002)

Im sorry but I'm not believing anything from you people until Gonz has confirmed that he's read about it in a 6 year old vortex thread so it must be true...... :wink:


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## Mr_Smith (Jul 24, 2014)

Madmax199 said:


>


What would you make on pump gas? Can't really get e85 here. Torn between hybrid or gt28 sized turbo...

Thanks


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## Madmax199 (Jun 14, 2015)

Mr_Smith said:


> What would you make on pump gas? Can't really get e85 here. Torn between hybrid or gt28 sized turbo...
> 
> Thanks


What would I make on pump? Probably close to what is shown on the RR graph I posted since I would also be running water injection which can provide 90% percent of what E85 offers (obviously if the water injection is done properly). I have a friend of mine that runs a F23 hybrid on pump gas and I think he's in the 350+ WHP range too. The main differences are that he runs water injection, a large port head, and has upgraded cams.

That's what he did on pure pump, no water/meth:





And that's what he does with a direct port water injection system:


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## hang your idols (Jul 8, 2013)

Madmax199 said:


> hang your idols said:
> 
> 
> > Matt B said:
> ...


Thanks *Madmax* but unfortunately the shipment and taxes are to high to make it worth it;i`m looking something in Europe.


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## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

We need to find someone who is willing to port the JBS manifold for us  !

We should start a thread in the group buy and see if someone is willing to do a group porting for us! Hahah...


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## Beunhaas (May 14, 2014)

This might be the most stupid comment but why not using a good proven manifold and making an adapter to fit the original k04 turbo on it? Did something similar but at the cylinderhead and exhaust flange


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## 3TT3 (Aug 30, 2014)

I cant believe you guys havent fully investigated the pulsing benefits of dual 2 cylinder inlets to the turbo ??? :-o

In a 1980's edition of popular car mechanics there was a tip about gasket sizing.. well 2 really .
1. Tighten up loose and mark the position so the gasket doesnt shift around on the bolt hole play.
Cut gaskets where the depressions are.
2.Bolt up loosely, then use spray paint (probly hi temp  ) down into the manifold to outline any gasket bits spoiling the airflow.










:lol: whole post is "pseudo" but everything Ive posted I have read about so must be true


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## Gonzalo1495 (Oct 13, 2014)

jamman said:


> Im sorry but I'm not believing anything from you people until Gonz has confirmed that he's read about it in a 6 year old vortex thread so it must be true...... :wink:


The sad thing is jamman, this information has been available for 6 years, and you guys are just now figuring it out :lol: :lol:


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## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

I have to say it is pretty gutting that all that's currently available to us is the Relentlessly unknown V4.


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## Madmax199 (Jun 14, 2015)

TT Tom TT said:


> I have to say it is pretty gutting that all that's currently available to us is the Relentlessly unknown V4.


Maybe it hasn't been made clear enough, but the JBS clone (aka Chinafold) is available online. All that is needed to make it the best all around option with cost/performance, and some long term reliability, is some collector porting. Maybe that sounds threatening to some, but that's should not be a big deal to the average enthusiast IMO. You buy a unit on ebay or alibaba, port it yourself, or drop it at a machine shop to have the collector bored open to 47mm.


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## Madmax199 (Jun 14, 2015)

Beunhaas said:


> This might be the most stupid comment but why not using a good proven manifold and making an adapter to fit the original k04 turbo on it? Did something similar but at the cylinderhead and exhaust flange


Not a stupid idea at all mate! That is what I planned to do at some point.

Originally, I ported a good OEM core (many of them develop cracks after years of heat cycling), but once I decided to go with an external wastegate on my hybrid turbo build, I looked into using a proven PPT V-banded cast maniold and making the modifications needed to make it to work. What stopped me is the JBS units became available (from whatever plant JBS outsourced their manufacturing to). The metal composition is right, the collector area is overdone with more material than needed (even after porting) to outlast the OEM units, the runner ID is good and high flowing throughout. With this kind of spec sheet, the JBS design was solid and requires much less work (and money) than adapting another good cast manifold to work. So they're a no brainer to anyone looking to have the best solution to the problem with minimal effort.


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## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

Madmax199 said:


> TT Tom TT said:
> 
> 
> > I have to say it is pretty gutting that all that's currently available to us is the Relentlessly unknown V4.
> ...


What about the inlets? Don't they have to be ported too?


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## Madmax199 (Jun 14, 2015)

TT Tom TT said:


> What about the inlets? Don't they have to be ported too?


No, the inlets (runners) don't have to be touched (I gasket matched mine at the flange area but that's just looking for perfection). Just the collector area requires attention.


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## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

Madmax199 said:


> TT Tom TT said:
> 
> 
> > What about the inlets? Don't they have to be ported too?
> ...


and 47mm in diameter is the magic number correct? Leaving at least 1mm between the newly created collector area and bolt holes? This will definitely make more power and flow better than the Relentless V4 right?


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## Madmax199 (Jun 14, 2015)

TT Tom TT said:


> and 47mm in diameter is the magic number correct? Leaving at least 1mm between the newly created collector area and bolt holes? This will definitely make more power and flow better than the Relentless V4 right?


Yes, 47mm is the magic number to open the collector and guarantee that there is enough flow area (regardless of the operating conditions on the setup). If you're going for the most flow possible like I did with mine (boring it up to 48mm), I suggest leaving at least 1mm of material by the bolt holes.

I can't claim that it will make more/less power than a V4, only a RR comparo could answer this. What I can tell you is that a ported-collector JBS clone will flow more than enough to keep EGT within acceptable margin, and not be a system restriction even with a hybrid at 30+ psi. The runners ID in the manifold are larger than the exhaust ports in the head -- and if the collector is opened to 47mm, it is also larger than the turbine entrance, so there are no bottlenecks throughout.

I also recommend (although not a necessity) to open/port the turbine entrance to match what's done on the collector. Plenty of material on the turbine housing side to have them match at 47mm and not get too close to the bolt holes.










Comparison between a standard and port matched turbine housing










What you'll be left with if you massage the turbine housing as well for ideal flow


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## jojo.f (May 21, 2014)

Hi guys - can anyone tell me how much a standard exhaust manifold is likely to cost me too buy and have fitted?
Or if i am replacing, as it apparently is cracked, should i not go for standard as i have seen on here that they crack again?

Any advice please

J x


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## Gonzalo1495 (Oct 13, 2014)

Madmax199 said:


> TT Tom TT said:
> 
> 
> > I have to say it is pretty gutting that all that's currently available to us is the Relentlessly unknown V4.
> ...


Now tell us one more time Max :lol:


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## NickG (Aug 15, 2013)

jojo.f said:


> Hi guys - can anyone tell me how much a standard exhaust manifold is likely to cost me too buy and have fitted?
> Or if i am replacing, as it apparently is cracked, should i not go for standard as i have seen on here that they crack again?
> 
> Any advice please
> ...


Hi Jojo, its not an easy job at all so unlikely for labour to be cheap. Manifold wise it depends on if you want new or are happy to chance a 2nd hand one at £50-£100. Not sure on the cost of a new one, can't imagine it would be cheap!


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## jojo.f (May 21, 2014)

Nick - thanks for reply - i understand that it is a massive job, dropping subframe etc i think i read :x

Not sure if gonna end up paying huge labour costs whether it is worth chancing a 2nd hand one as might end up having to have it done again !

But as you say new one is probably expensive when you add labour on too....aww decisions, decisions :?

J x


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## Nem (Feb 14, 2005)

New standard OEM exhaust manifold lists about £350 I think.


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## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

Madmax199 said:


> TT Tom TT said:
> 
> 
> > and 47mm in diameter is the magic number correct? Leaving at least 1mm between the newly created collector area and bolt holes? This will definitely make more power and flow better than the Relentless V4 right?
> ...


Just asked Bill and he told me this:










Is he referencing having to grind away the "divider" that's present in the collector area? Thanks for your input max. I'm reading the thread on VWVortex to try and learn some more.


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## Nem (Feb 14, 2005)

This is the problem I've now got. Just removing it and then grinding some more away without knowing exactly what and where could mean me refitting and not solving the issue.

The idea of having to take it off again at all isn't the appealing, so buying a Relentless V4 and just doing a single remove and fit that is looking almost a better option.


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## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

Nem said:


> This is the problem I've now got. Just removing it and then grinding some more away without knowing exactly what and where could mean me refitting and not solving the issue.
> 
> The idea of having to take it off again at all isn't the appealing, so buying a Relentless V4 and just doing a single remove and fit that is looking almost a better option.


My sentiments exactly but I honestly think the gains from a properly ported chinafold and where it connects up to the turbo would be worth it (at least an extra 10BHP over the V4 I'd say).


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## jojo.f (May 21, 2014)

Thanks Nick and Nick - just had phonecall with mechanic and manifold £311.09 on its own, to provide and fit, been quoted £792 !!![/size][/b]
[smiley=bigcry.gif]


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## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

jojo.f said:


> Thanks Nick and Nick - just had phonecall with mechanic and manifold £311.09 on its own, to provide and fit, been quoted £792 !!![/size][/b]
> [smiley=bigcry.gif]


Buy one off eBay, hairline cracks hardly ever cause leakage it's usually a bad turbo to manifold gasket. Buy a gasket for 7 quid, a used manifold for 50 quid and then find a garage that isn't a rip off and they should do it for 250-300. so all in all 357GBP tops.


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## Madmax199 (Jun 14, 2015)

TT Tom TT said:


> Just asked Bill and he told me this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


First let's make one thing clear, if Bill is talking about me "regurgitating his specs" he needs to get his head out of his behind so he can snap out of the delusion state he's in. Anyone can go on vortex and search my threads where I was porting OEM manifold to these specs in 2012... way before Bill dreamed about copying what FrankenTurbo was doing in the US, and offering porting services on the chinafolds. So, before he claims that specs are "his", he better drink some of that reality-check coolaid. Hopefully he was talking about someone else because I'm the cowboy that innovates and set trends... I don't "regurgitate people's specs" hence the several PMs I have archived where the so called gurus in the UK are picking my brain about hybrid turbo stuff. So cut BS will you... Badger

Now to asnwer your question, the boring/porting to the specs mentioned obviously needs to be done through the collector area -- not just at the lip, but all the way down. Like I mentioned several times, the divider will need to get knocked down in the process. To visualize it, if you were to drop a 47mm cylinder down the collector after porting, it should drop all the way in past the runner exits. The runner entrance that is shared can also be opened a bit for best results.

What I was doing in 2012, using "Bill's patended specs" before he thought about inventing them. Hilarious!


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## jojo.f (May 21, 2014)

TT Tom TT said:


> jojo.f said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks Nick and Nick - just had phonecall with mechanic and manifold £311.09 on its own, to provide and fit, been quoted £792 !!![/size][/b]
> ...


Thanks Tom - i am not even sure it is manifold, could just be gasket or maybe cat flange, but i have been told that they can't tell until they strip it down which is going to cost me labour.

Is there anyway i can tell or find out without a major strip down?

It makes this kind of raspberry blowing noise on acceleration and really bad fumes in car?

Thanks
J x


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## TT Tom TT (Oct 9, 2015)

Madmax199 said:


> TT Tom TT said:
> 
> 
> > Just asked Bill and he told me this:
> ...


Absolutely wasn't calling you a plagiarist, I was just copy and pasting what was in front of me. The 'dropping a 47mm cylinder into the new 47mm hole thing has really helped me understand mate, thank you very much.



jojo.f said:


> TT Tom TT said:
> 
> 
> > jojo.f said:
> ...


This definitely sounds like the gasket, you can actually replace the gasket in situ, what I would recommend is the following... Start your engine, pop the bonnet. Look into the engine bay as far behind the engine as you can see and look for smoke. Get someone to rev the engine for you whilst you look. If you see anything at all then it's likely to be the gasket. Get a k04 turbo to manifold gasket and then get a mobile mechanic to fit it for you as it can be done in-situ without taking anything apart and they should only charge you 20-60 quid ...


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## jojo.f (May 21, 2014)

Thanks Tom - that sound like a much better option - gonna try that as a cheap fix first, i mean worst ways i still have to get manifold done !

Thanks very much x


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## stewbieTT (Jun 23, 2012)

I came across this thread on cupranet the other day:

http://www.seatcupra.net/forums/showthr ... 02&page=79

366BHP on K418T hybrid and re-ported B5 mani , independently mapped by big fish tuning 

If you look back a couple of pages you can see he had issues with the manifold originally before sending back to Bill for re-working, sounds like Nem's issue?


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## Mr_Smith (Jul 24, 2014)

Hi,

What tools are required to do the porting? I'm keen to get one done.

Cheers


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## Madmax199 (Jun 14, 2015)

Mr_Smith said:


> Hi,
> 
> What tools are required to do the porting? I'm keen to get one done.
> 
> Cheers


High speed rotary tools with some metal cutting/grinding, and polishing bits.


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## Madmax199 (Jun 14, 2015)

stewbieTT said:


> I came across this thread on cupranet the other day:
> 
> http://www.seatcupra.net/forums/showthr ... 02&page=79
> 
> ...


It's a well known issue and it's not news. The community has also found the solution (collector porting) for as long as this manifold has been around. It's just weird that some people have not done their homework and still fit the JBS-designed manifolds without the proper work. Read these old threads linked below for what has been known and discussed for years:

One of the first documented thread about what it takes to rework the JBS manifold. At that time JBS was still selling them
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.p ... s+manifold

I love this one! It extensively discusses various manifold options for the stock frames turbos. What's funny about it, you can see who has been consistent with what they're saying (my screen name is Marcus_Aurelius) and others that argued some points some years back, but made a 360 in opinion nowadays (even claiming to own porting specs on a design they were fiercely arguing against). 
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.p ... S+manifold

This one is good too with good pics of the collector porting on the FT JBS-style manifolds. You could clearly see the 47mm collector boring specs posted by Doug at FT, but yet Bill owns the rights to it :roll:. On page 4 Bill is also denying arguing with me about manifold designs when he was all for the welded tubulars. If you read the previous link, you can see how true that is. Lol
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.p ... S+manifold

PS: the only thing I don't see stressed enough in the threads that could be useful to people looking to do this, is that the joined runner exit at the collector could use some opening/porting as well. So massaging this choke point is advisable.


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## jamman (May 6, 2002)

Bill arguing who would have thought that :wink:


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## Madmax199 (Jun 14, 2015)

jamman said:


> Bill arguing, flip-flopping on his opinion, and then denying it, who would have thought that :wink:


Fixed for you James!


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## jamman (May 6, 2002)

Madmax199 said:


> jamman said:
> 
> 
> > Bill arguing, flip-flopping on his opinion, and then denying it, who would have thought that :wink:
> ...


 :lol: :lol: Let's just say our paths have crossed :lol: :lol: :wink:


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## Gonzalo1495 (Oct 13, 2014)

jamman said:


> Madmax199 said:
> 
> 
> > jamman said:
> ...


Shocking :lol:


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