# Understeer Audi TT RS.



## R5T (Apr 24, 2008)

A lot of understeer produced by the TT RS, nothing new on Audi's btw.
I want to find a way of killing that if i own a RS.
Camber adjustment is a way to kill it, or by more rubber at the front, or changed anti roll bars.
Improving front mechanical grip is the key word.
Removing interior parts save weight but is killing weight distribution, best is putting back the saved weight behind the rear bumper in lead, improving weight distribution.

Audi produced a killer engine, but it get killed by understeer.


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## Poverty (Dec 21, 2009)

R5T said:


> A lot of understeer produced by the TT RS, nothing new on Audi's btw.
> I want to find a way of killing that if i own a RS.
> Camber adjustment is a way to kill it, or by more rubber at the front, or changed anti roll bars.
> Improving front mechanical grip is the key word.
> ...


Bigger ARBs, Coilovers, more aggressive haldex settings, W.A.L.K, uprated bushes and mounts.

Not sure if the W.A.L.K will fit a TT though. It fits the octavia, mk5 golf etc

I have the same concerns about the TT-RS s you, but I want that engine so badly, due to it reminding me of the legendary UrQuattro


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## R5T (Apr 24, 2008)

Poverty said:


> Bigger ARBs, Coilovers, more aggressive haldex settings, W.A.L.K, uprated bushes and mounts.
> 
> Not sure if the W.A.L.K will fit a TT though. It fits the octavia, mk5 golf etc
> 
> I have the same concerns about the TT-RS s you, but I want that engine so badly, due to it reminding me of the legendary UrQuattro


Drove 15 years Audi inline 5 cylinder engines, the only real Audi engine IMHO.


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## Poverty (Dec 21, 2009)

R5T said:


> Poverty said:
> 
> 
> > Bigger ARBs, Coilovers, more aggressive haldex settings, W.A.L.K, uprated bushes and mounts.
> ...


Agreed, real audi heritage :twisted:


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## R5T (Apr 24, 2008)

btw hat is W.A.L.K.


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## Poverty (Dec 21, 2009)

R5T said:


> btw hat is W.A.L.K.


white line anti lift kit, adds 0.5 caster, and anti lift.

http://www.seatcupra.net/forums/showthread.php?t=247346

http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=395.0


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## R5T (Apr 24, 2008)

OK thanks.


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

Not heard anyone say that before.
It def under-steers less than the S.

Engine is too heavy is the problem with the RS, not sure why they made it out the heaviest metal they could find.


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## Poverty (Dec 21, 2009)

Toshiba said:


> Not heard anyone say that before.
> It def under-steers less than the S.
> 
> Engine is too heavy is the problem with the RS, not sure why they made it out the heaviest metal they could find.


Yes it is pretty heavy, and 60% of the weight distribution is on the front wheels [smiley=bigcry.gif]

I still want one though!

Lightweight brakes, remove A/C, titanium downpipe, lightweight seats, will help weight distribution


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## R5T (Apr 24, 2008)

Poverty said:


> Agreed, real audi heritage :twisted:


Future TT RS plans look something like this:

Solar Orange TT RS. (powered by "Hansson Automotive")
Black OZ Ultraleggera HLT 20" (265/30R20")
Coilover suspension.
Capristo full exhaust.
RS6 V10 6-pot or RS4 B7 ceramic front Brakes.
Upgraded 322mm rear brakes.
475+ hp.
Carbon fibre Pole position race buckets. (black leather/Orange stitching)
Rear seat removal.
Bar + cargo net (Mk1 quattro sport style)
Extended front splitter.
Rear diffuser.


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## Poverty (Dec 21, 2009)

R5T said:


> Poverty said:
> 
> 
> > Agreed, real audi heritage :twisted:
> ...


Cant wait to see that! When will you be starting? :twisted:

Im gonna enjoy next years track and show season with my cupra, as ive only recently got it up to 360hp and havent been able to make use of it with the bad weather, and then hopefully near the end of the summer get a TT-RS.

My plans are 500hp+ via Big Turbo
Lightweight 18's or 19's
Sticky road legal tires
Lightweight brakes
A/C Removal
De-Cat milltek
Recaro Sportster CS seats
Coilovers

What are your ideas for the rear diffuser and front splitter? Is it already available or will you be getting one made just for you?


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## R5T (Apr 24, 2008)

Poverty said:


> Cant wait to see that! When will you be starting? :twisted:
> What are your ideas for the rear diffuser and front splitter? Is it already available or will you be getting one made just for you?


Custom made, lower centre part extended splitter and diffuser something like this.

View attachment 1


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## Poverty (Dec 21, 2009)

that is gonna look awesome. TT-RS looks really nice in that orange. I will be going ibis white.


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## Senator (Mar 4, 2009)

R5T said:


> Poverty said:
> 
> 
> > Agreed, real audi heritage :twisted:
> ...


You will certainly have by far the most expensive TT in the world R5T.
Close enough to 20K GBP just between the brakes and the exhaust.
You'll make UAEPrince look like he's spending beer money.


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## R5T (Apr 24, 2008)

Poverty said:


> that is gonna look awesome. TT-RS looks really nice in that orange. I will be going ibis white.


No thank you, to much white cars on the road now a day's.

Orange is a awesome colour. :wink:


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## wkhkelvin (May 27, 2009)

R5T said:


> A lot of understeer produced by the TT RS, nothing new on Audi's btw.
> I want to find a way of killing that if i own a RS.


This is a no quick way to kill it, but can try this, a TT version of "Audi sport differential":
http://www.haldex-xwd.com/



Toshiba said:


> Not heard anyone say that before.
> It def under-steers less than the S.


I thought TTS has less understeer than the RS? How come it's the other way round?
and TT 2.0T Quattro has even less understeer than the TTS, it's just physics.


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## Poverty (Dec 21, 2009)

Senator said:


> R5T said:
> 
> 
> > Poverty said:
> ...


Mmmm gruppe M cai! Shame you live in oz as would love to log your car with that cai fitted to see how it performs! Also you have a big bore dump tube, how does that sound!?


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## Poverty (Dec 21, 2009)

wkhkelvin said:


> R5T said:
> 
> 
> > A lot of understeer produced by the TT RS, nothing new on Audi's btw.
> ...


There is a 2.0T quattro now? Thought quattro for petrol cars start with the TTS?


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

wkhkelvin said:


> I thought TTS has less understeer than the RS? How come it's the other way round?
> and TT 2.0T Quattro has even less understeer than the TTS, it's just physics.


RS understeers less due to the setup.
MR on the S doesn't keep the same body control as the RS does.

Also given the torque of the RS vs S, power is sent to the rear wheels quicker. it much harder to understeer when the power is at the rear of the car!

All that said, i never tracked the S, nor have i the RS so I'm no expert i can only tell you the way the RS feels round the bends vs the S is different...understeering cars goes through the fence nose first, oversteering cars goes through the fence tail first!

Quattro can be had on the 20T, as well as S.


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## fuscobal (Jul 19, 2009)

To bring the car to a more neutral behaviour I would mess with the following :

- Coilvovers with adjustable height and stiffness (damping/rebound) and possibly chamber adjustement (this last one is more for track as it will wear the tires faster)
- Haldex controller (it's just been released for gen 4 haldex)
- Anti-roll bars (stiffer on the rear of-course)
- W.A.L.K. (if it's available for TT-RS) seems to also make a difference among purists
- Moving some weight from the front towards the rear (this implies having a way of measuring the car's weight on each wheel)


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## wkhkelvin (May 27, 2009)

Toshiba said:


> wkhkelvin said:
> 
> 
> > I thought TTS has less understeer than the RS? How come it's the other way round?
> ...


Let think in this way:
Both a RR and a FR are rear wheel drive but have different engine position (RR rear, FR front) and dynamics. The question is how fast the nose respond to the steering wheel with or without a more than 100kg mass on the top of the nose?
For a FR the nose need to move first before you can slide with the rear wheel but to move an extra 100kg sideway does take some time. For RR the nose respond a lot quicker without the extra 100kg mass and therefore less understeer than FR.


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## BLinky (Jul 3, 2009)

so so so much to do, why not just stick slightly worst tires in the back, you save a few $ too.


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## hanzo (Apr 6, 2009)

i would really like to see the TTRS with the CAPRISTO Exhaust!!!!

my cousin finally got his for the R32 and daaaaaaamnn!!! that thing is so loud!! and you can feel the difference in power when you open up the pipes it becomes MAD!! :twisted:

but very expensive!


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## dbm (Apr 17, 2008)

wkhkelvin said:


> This is a no quick way to kill it, but can try this, a TT version of "Audi sport differential":
> http://www.haldex-xwd.com/


I contacted them when I first got my car about a year ago, and they told me this system couldn't be fitted to a TTS. Anyone know different?

Cheers,
Dan


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## Senator (Mar 4, 2009)

dbm said:


> wkhkelvin said:
> 
> 
> > This is a no quick way to kill it, but can try this, a TT version of "Audi sport differential":
> ...


Dan, Haldex have released some new kit for the TTS AND RS, I'll refer you to the Australian Haldex site as it has far more info.
http://www.goapr.com.au/products/haldex.html


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## sTTranger (Oct 21, 2008)

doesnt the TTRS already have the ability to pass full power to the rear wheels???


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## Wallsendmag (Feb 12, 2004)

According to the last report I saw it does.


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## Nick225TT (Oct 13, 2004)

Toshiba said:


> Not heard anyone say that before.
> It def under-steers less than the S.
> 
> Engine is too heavy is the problem with the RS, not sure why they made it out the heaviest metal they could find.


It's also the strongest metal they could find, only found in diesel engines before the RS. They made the walls very thin to keep the engine compact, hence the heavy/strong material.


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## McKenzie (Dec 25, 2008)

Moving weight around the car is pointless, if you go to the extreme of taking the weight out in the first place for god sake dont put it back in! you can change a set-up on the car by the means said earlier and that will solve the issues, im sure you could sort the handling out by fairly simple suspension means.


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## mikef4uk (Jan 15, 2006)

Before you start messing with anything you really need to know a little more than the car 'understeers' before you come up with a plan to fix it, you need to know when it understeers and what the driver is doing at the time, simply throwing a set of coilovers and roll bars at it is not the way forward.
Once you have found out where the car understeers and what the driver is doing you then need to know what the tyre is doing, it may be overworked and past it's slip angle or underworked, moving weight rearwards may be the complete wrong thing to do.

In a perfect world you need a car to turn in well, be neutral mid corner and understeer very slightly once the power is re-applied, loads of Clarkson/Needel type of oversteer is only for people who need an ego boost, as is the stiffer harder approach


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## [email protected] (Aug 4, 2009)

Been reading this post with interest and at the moment am on a mission to control the stated understeer. Thus far, we have done the following;

*1) *fitted larger / better tyres all round...PS2 275/35 as oppose to PZero 245/40 all on 18" wheels.

This change has yielded 'some' improvements. When I say 'some', what I mean is am able to push in to a bend at higher speed than before and the car stays or goes where I point it. Prior to making this change, the front will push wider at a bend and I then had to lift off to get the car to step back in-line. The effect is more pronunced when we fitted a set of 19" wheels from a TTS to test...I just do not like my cars to do that when am pushing hard.

The next change for me is the Haldex Sports Controller - in effect it is supposed to move power to the rear axle and *'keep it there for longer'*. That, IMO, will reduce the stated understeer down to a manageable level...as some oversteer is introduced. So in principle, the steering axle (fronts) will have slightly reduced power thus less forward motion compared to the rears (we may be talking fraction off MPH here) thereby making it easier to steer into any bend. The powered axle (rears) will then control - to a point - forward motion.

We have talked about making camber changes however we feel such changes may not be significant enough to have the desired effect on the roads unless you track the car then such camber changes 'may' be noticeable...offcourse, we also do not want to affect the balance of the tyres with premature uneven wear. It is all trial & error at the moment however we are making progress - jeez, I sound like this is one of my projects...not now 996Cab, you are not at work!.

I once wrote on AWForum that the TT-RS is by far the most technically challenging car to drive that I have owned - it simply begs the driver to setup the car right before going for a blast down the road. Am on the quest to accomplish the setup.


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## R5T (Apr 24, 2008)

A old-fashioned way to kill understeer is by putting wider tires on the front compare to the rear.
For example 275/35 front and 245/40 @ the rear, more front end grip compare to the rear.
Another way is by putting in a quaife front diff in the 4Motion/quattro system to replace the open Audi diff.
The car will get more mechanical grip @ the front.


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## R5T (Apr 24, 2008)

fuscobal said:


> - Moving some weight from the front towards the rear (this implies having a way of measuring the car's weight on each wheel)


Like this.


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## McKenzie (Dec 25, 2008)

Im amazed the corner weights are out by nearly 20 KG on the front. guess there is certain bits of the gearbox/engine that will be heavier on one side.


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## R5T (Apr 24, 2008)

McKenzie said:


> Im amazed the corner weights are out by nearly 20 KG on the front. guess there is certain bits of the gearbox/engine that will be heavier on one side.


This is a TT Mk2 3.2 Turbo (±615 hp) quattro DSG.


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## mikef4uk (Jan 15, 2006)

McKenzie said:


> Im amazed the corner weights are out by nearly 20 KG on the front. guess there is certain bits of the gearbox/engine that will be heavier on one side.


Corner weights are good fun, but for perfection they should be done with the driver in ( just imagine how far they go out then, Porsches are the same, if they were LHD the driver would even things up......................), then theres the compromise, do you get the fronts equal? or the diagnols to equal each other?one will make it stop better, the other make change of directions equal


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## Black Knight (Jan 16, 2007)

seriously people you really need to be more specific...

understeering while powering out of a bend is more down to bad driving than anything else.

understeering is not really a characteristic of a car/suspension which is determined by mad powering out of sharp corners.

furthermore, cures for understeer depend on the situation in which you experience understeer... fast corners, medium speed corners, slow corners... and then again, corner entry, mid corner, corner exit...

im no expert, far from it, but the fact that most of you arent even aware of this basic stuff should tell you not to mess with your car which has been setup by very smart people doing many many laps around nurburgring...

the car has been setup from factory for road use and in most any conditions. so also bear in mind that if you configure it to not understeer at all in the dry it most probably will dangerously oversteer in the wet etc etc.

if you just want to get that poweroversteer effect on corner exit, sure, you can try haldex sport controllers but keep in mind the car is not meant for drifting around corners(except in snow). it is basicly a FWD car and even with any haldex controller it will at best be able to stiffen up and spin up all 4 wheels at the same time and same speed. at that point it depends on the situation and momentum if the car will oversteer or understeer.

final note, most of the understeer people experience can be "tuned out" by taking some race driving lessons and applying them.


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## Black Knight (Jan 16, 2007)

oh yea, about haldex.

when front grip fails or even preemptively on newer generation or aftermarket "OEM" haldex controllers haldex simply stiffens up... the clutches lock up and front and rear wheels spin together.

so just think about it - achieving a true poweroversteer this way is really impossible as rear wheels will never be able to spin faster than fronts. you can't spin up just the rear wheels with haldex unless you have some kind of a "power take off unit" that disconnects the fronts which TTs do not have.

situations in which the TT will act as if it poweroversteered is if rear grip simply runs out before the front grip or if the fronts manage to turn the car around faster than the rears can follow.. even in those situations, when looking from the outside the rear do not really spin up, they just lose grip spinning at the same speed as the fronts... it is not the same as RWD cars or even true 4wd cars. and it never will be no matter what kind of controller you install..

sure, getting haldex to work preemptively is a good thing(dont TTS and TTRS have preemptive haldex from factory?), you dont experience the inital front slippage, so it all works a lot smoother and more predictable as rear transfer depends on throttle actuation which is controlled by you directly and not on a hard to predict moment when one of the front wheels slips. 
the fact that preemptive rear transfer engageing also helps avoiding the inital slip it will also cure eventual understeer that might happen during the inital slip...

but in the end, you need to enter a corner already slightly oversteering and then you couldnt care less that you cant "poweroversteer" out of the corner as you're already oversteering and when you power out the rear squats and actually falls back in place... totaly oposite than what most people are trying to do...


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## R5T (Apr 24, 2008)

Black Knight said:


> seriously people you really need to be more specific...
> 
> understeering while powering out of a bend is more down to bad driving than anything else.


Nothing wrong with my driving, and understeer does not have secrets for me.
I like controlled understeer but only on the wrecked edge of driving.


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## [email protected] (Aug 4, 2009)

Black Knight said:


> seriously people you really need to be more specific...
> 
> understeering while powering out of a bend is more down to bad driving than anything else.


 Agreed and I do not experience this...I specifically experience the front pushing wide when entering a bend at high speed. I want to solve that specific behaviour of the car and that is my goal.



Black Knight said:


> oh yea, about haldex.
> when front grip fails or even preemptively on newer generation or aftermarket "OEM" haldex controllers haldex simply stiffens up... the clutches lock up and front and rear wheels spin together.


 Yes it does and the upshot of this when entering a bend at high speed is the car snakes 'DURING' the stiffening process...and the effect on me and my style of driving is I lose confidence to approach bends at high speed.

I think you raise some interesting points however you do really have to be behind a TT-RS approaching bends at high speed to really understand the actual issue.

What am hoping the Haldex Sports Controller does is that it serves greater drive to the rear so that at the point when I arrive at a bend pushing on a little bit, am in control as to where to point the steering axle (fronts) as oppose to having to lift off or at worst having Haldex Gen IV playing its party trick on me. The party results in the 'snaking / front wobbling' effect I experienced.

As stated before, the 'snaking / front wobbling' effect is more pronounced on 19s as oppose to 18 wheels - that was my findings.


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## McKenzie (Dec 25, 2008)

Black Knight said:


> seriously people you really need to be more specific...
> 
> understeering while powering out of a bend is more down to bad driving than anything else.
> 
> ...


Couldnt disagree more, the car is setup to understeer for everyday joes who dont want to try and drive the car hard and end up backwards in a tree, its a everyday sports car not a supercar that might be setup for the limit of what it really can achieve. Coming out of a corner regardless you can always get understeer as you are trying to put power through the front wheels when they havent got enough availabe grip as you are still turning, it has nothing to do with driving ability. Only straight line hero's will not get understeer as they will wait until in a complete straight line until they floor it.

The principle you are taking about when saying you can get the car to oversteer through the corner then sit the car down on the throttle is also balls to a certain extent as even the best of drivers would not be able to balance a car that well on the edge every corner every time it just doesnt work like that, its not even quick to drive that way as you scrub speed of going into a corner sideways anyway. All the MK2 TT's will understeer as they are setup to for people to drive at speed without having massive broadside moments, most people wont be able to drive a car really pointy and slightly twitchy on entry to a corner so dialing some understeer into the car will be the "safe" option and also an easy way to drive the car pretty quickly. In fact the quickest way of getting the best out of a car is to have some understeer anyway due to the ability to push hard and have the confidence that the car is underneath you and that you can tell what it is going to do before the car itself knows whats going on. The reason why people are tuning out the understeer is for personal preference and the ability to push the car that little bit further than the limitation of what it is already set up to do.


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## mikef4uk (Jan 15, 2006)

Black Knight said:


> seriously people you really need to be more specific...
> 
> understeering while powering out of a bend is more down to bad driving than anything else.
> 
> ...


+1, someone showing a little sense around here is unusual


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## R5T (Apr 24, 2008)

I alway use the throttle to steer the car through corners.
Put the pedal down to understeer and lift the pedal to create oversteer.
Find a nice balance between that and you can corner fast with a nicely drifting car.


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## McKenzie (Dec 25, 2008)

R5T said:


> I alway use the throttle to steer the car through corners.
> Put the pedal down to understeer and lift the pedal to create oversteer.
> Find a nice balance between that and you can corner fast with a nicely drifting car.


In a nutshell that is the best way of describing how you can drive the car and get what you want out of it.


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## Black Knight (Jan 16, 2007)

996cab said:


> Black Knight said:
> 
> 
> > seriously people you really need to be more specific...
> ...


i dont see why you are powering on before corner entry? i cant really understand what you're doing...

haldex transfer is usually obvious when powering out of tight corners and that's mostly it...


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## caney (Feb 5, 2004)

R5T said:


> Poverty said:
> 
> 
> > Agreed, real audi heritage :twisted:
> ...


anyone can real of their wishlists but will you actually do it?talk is cheap on forums :roll:


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## R5T (Apr 24, 2008)

Black Knight said:


> Agreed and I do not experience this...I specifically experience the front pushing wide when entering a bend at high speed. I want to solve that specific behaviour of the car and that is my goal.


If you know how to drive a FWD you know the motto is "slow in and fast out of corners".
Take the necessary speed out before entering the conner and then build speed up again.
If you take a FWD to fast into a conner you will struggle the rest of the conner with it.


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## [email protected] (Aug 4, 2009)

R5T said:


> Black Knight said:
> 
> 
> > Agreed and I do not experience this...I specifically experience the front pushing wide when entering a bend at high speed. I want to solve that specific behaviour of the car and that is my goal.
> ...


Again, agreed hence I am hoping the Haldex Sports Controller does indeed offer greater and sustained drive transfer to rears as has been documented. If that is the case then I should be able to power into bends and carry the said speed through and out of the bend.


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## [email protected] (Aug 4, 2009)

caney said:


> R5T said:
> 
> 
> > Poverty said:
> ...


Talk is indeed cheap...such updates as noted above must be nearing 50% of the original car value - and yet most complain about the initial outlay for a TT-RS...bit confusing.


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## Black Knight (Jan 16, 2007)

McKenzie said:


> Black Knight said:
> 
> 
> > seriously people you really need to be more specific...
> ...


trailbraking is the proper way to take corners. i dont think that should even be discussed.

when you trailbrake properly easing up to the apex and perhaps even manage to get slight oversteer during that you will be able to power out properly... naturally, if you have an abundance of power you will always be able to push it wide... but what is actually the problem here? every car will do this except RWDs that break rear grip and go into a poweroversteer... do you actually think you can dial this out and not mess up everything else?

no matter how much haldex transfers to the rear the car will always act like that... powering causes the rear to squat and get more grip and push the front end out... this issue can not be solved on a TT because haldex is not able to take off power from the fronts... no haldex upgrade can fix this.... and messing up the suspension to solve this non-issue is IMO a horrible idea.

for example i owned and drove a vx2220 around a track many times and if you push too much too soon even that pushes out wide... sure, you can put on wider tires to solve your bad driving but what happens then? the car oversteers into a spin on high speed corner entry... it is never that simple...

it is hard to dial out a specific issue without messing up everything else.. experts have trouble doing this... amateurs should keep away, especialy from messing up cars meant for the road... and pushing out wide out of corner is not even an issue, but more of a question of too much throttle too early - a mistake basicly.

trailbraking into a corner like a maniac usually causes you to exit properly simply by instinct...

if you enter too slow(this is actually a much better way you recognize "straight line heros") into a corner you notice it right away and then to "fix" it you make another mistake and start powering out before the apex(while still turning in) because it becomes obvious you could have carried more speed through and then follows the understeer pushing wide stuff - powering while still tightening the line - turning in... this is what most people do and hence the complaining about understeer..

if you start powering as you start unwinding the steering wheel, after the apex, and increase power gradually as you unwind you will get a nice corner exit... and the fact that you are undwinging causes you to "catch" the understeer at the same time...

fact is, noone complaines about understeer on corner entry, everyone complains about understeer on corner exit - as entering the corner too slow and then raping the throttle while still turning in is the most common mistake people make and the cause of most understeer complaints..

and IMO it is not a good idea to give such people advice on putting on wider fronts and replacing half their suspension...

im not saying im a good driver but i am aware of that fact.. however i have made a few proper corner entries and exits and i know when you do it right the understeer is hardly as big an issue as most owners make it out to be...

all of us are "regular joes" for that matter too... some of us do regular track days perhaps, some less regular, but still that's far from a proper race driver...

give a proper race driver your car and let him drive a few laps and you will see that the car suddenly acts very nicely "for some reason"

im not saying you dont know how to drive, you might be m schumacher for all i know... but even if you are, your best bet on other people here complaining about understeering is that they are not m schumachers..

in the end, if you wanted a proper race car you bought the wrong car...

IMO TT is perfect for the road as is and that's it...


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## R5T (Apr 24, 2008)

caney said:


> anyone can real of their wishlists but will you actually do it?talk is cheap on forums :roll:


I talk about "Future TT RS Plans", and plans can chance in due time.

View attachment 1


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## [email protected] (Aug 4, 2009)

Black Knight said:


> i dont see why you are powering on before corner entry? i cant really understand what you're doing...


 I guess what perhaps you are saying is I ought to reduce my speed at point of entry...well, that comes naturally with changing down for a bend which I do however the 'limit' in terms of speed into bends seems to be reached earlier with the TT-RS when I first took delivery. With the few changes I have made thus far, am able to increase the speed threshold am arriving at the bend...I do however feel I can arrive at the bend at a higher speed hence the persistance.

I refuse to believe the handling of the car can not be improved...that will be a shame if that were the case.



Black Knight said:


> haldex transfer is usually obvious when powering out of tight corners and that's mostly it...


 This I already know...I need this transfer to occur before I get to the bend.


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## Black Knight (Jan 16, 2007)

why do you need transfer to the rear while you are braking before and into the bend? there is no power being applied?


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## R5T (Apr 24, 2008)

Black Knight said:


> why do you need transfer to the rear while you are braking before and into the bend? there is no power being applied?


That is the wrong way "Braking into a bend" at that point you need to be finished with braking.


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## [email protected] (Aug 4, 2009)

Black Knight said:


> why do you need transfer to the rear while you are braking before and into the bend? there is no power being applied?


Again, I made no reference to braking at point of entry...unless you mean the change down thus using the engine to brake gradually?

In any case the transfer am 'hoping' will make steering manageable - dare I say it, akin to a Boxster...I know it is RWD so don't mention that...


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## McKenzie (Dec 25, 2008)

> when you trailbrake properly easing up to the apex and perhaps even manage to get slight oversteer during that you will be able to power out properly... naturally, if you have an abundance of power you will always be able to push it wide... but what is actually the problem here? every car will do this except RWDs that break rear grip and go into a poweroversteer... do you actually think you can dial this out and not mess up everything else?
> 
> it is hard to dial out a specific issue without messing up everything else.. experts have trouble doing this... amateurs should keep away, especialy from messing up cars meant for the road... and pushing out wide out of corner is not even an issue, but more of a question of too much throttle too early - a mistake basicly.
> 
> ...


Hmm you have some interesting points and i do agree with some off them but i still think your not quite getting the point. There are many things handing wise you can do to the TT without making the car uncontrolable in the wet or conditions that you didnt initially set the car up to handle. I have done laps in my car and i would like to think i have found the limit in most scenarios. The TT as i said is set up for every day use and is a awesome little car that has superb handling but it can always be improved. If i had the money and time I could set the car up to be how i wanted and it would be quicker but other people are tuning there TT for personal preference and not necessarily for the maximum potential the car has. I think you should let people experiment with the handling for there car for there own enjoyment developing the car to how the want. It's more of a hobby and as long as people dont go flat out straight out the box then they will be fine.

by the way not everyone needs to know how to drive the way a racing driver would to get enjoyment out of there car.


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## Black Knight (Jan 16, 2007)

996cab said:


> Black Knight said:
> 
> 
> > why do you need transfer to the rear while you are braking before and into the bend? there is no power being applied?
> ...


you can and should brake even from point of entry to the apex... infact at point of entry you're still full on brakes and as you start turning in you simultaneously ease off the brake and transfer the weight from the front of the car gradually to the side of the car... i dont see what haldex has to do with any of this, you're just using the brakes up to the apex or are simply engine braking? haldex comes into play only after the corner apex when you start powering out... if it is a sharp corner you might feel the transfer happen at this point especially if you're not smooth with the throttle but then again that's pretty low speed so nothing dangerous... 
at higher speed corners i doubt you'll be able to break the traction on exit so it doesnt matter that much...


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## [email protected] (Aug 4, 2009)

Black Knight said:


> fact is, noone complaines about understeer on corner entry, everyone complains about understeer on corner exit - as entering the corner too slow and then raping the throttle while still turning in is the most common mistake people make and the cause of most understeer complaints..
> 
> and IMO it is not a good idea to give such people advice on putting on wider fronts and replacing half their suspension...
> 
> ...


Again, you make some good points. For me, the few changes I have made thus far has made the car handle as I want it to...perhaps the Haldex Sports Controller I want to fit may not have the desired effect of reducing the 'push on wide' trait. I have personally not tried one before thus difficult for me to commnet other than have it fitted and test. What I have read thus far indicates that it will do what I think I need it to do...hmmm, if only I could get a trial run...that will answer the question...


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## Black Knight (Jan 16, 2007)

McKenzie said:


> > when you trailbrake properly easing up to the apex and perhaps even manage to get slight oversteer during that you will be able to power out properly... naturally, if you have an abundance of power you will always be able to push it wide... but what is actually the problem here? every car will do this except RWDs that break rear grip and go into a poweroversteer... do you actually think you can dial this out and not mess up everything else?
> >
> > it is hard to dial out a specific issue without messing up everything else.. experts have trouble doing this... amateurs should keep away, especialy from messing up cars meant for the road... and pushing out wide out of corner is not even an issue, but more of a question of too much throttle too early - a mistake basicly.
> >
> ...


i agree, but still enthusiasts should try and drive properly... not on the edge, but never start powering while still turning in... it is not a difficult skill to develop...

im sure the handling can be improved, but not by a large margin for road use and as an amateur you have a better chance of messing it up... for the track obviously a huge deal can be done..
im also not really against slight modifications as changing ARB or bushes etc, perhaps slight suspension geometry modifications...

my point is, people who complain about understeer on corner exit should be advised to learn how to drive rather than anything else nhf to anyone... it is not something you can dial out and it is not something a haldex controller will help with...


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## [email protected] (Aug 4, 2009)

Black Knight said:


> 996cab said:
> 
> 
> > Black Knight said:
> ...


I understand what you are saying however that is not my preferred driving style...sure, I brake for very tight bends however I prefer to use low gear / engine braking when I can instead - when it works, I have greater control whilst maintaining a desired speed threshold. Infact, I prefer to judge ahead and maintain higher speed...using gearing to reduce or increase speed as required...this style of driving served me well in my 993 RS - missed selling the damn thing though.


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## Black Knight (Jan 16, 2007)

996cab said:


> Black Knight said:
> 
> 
> > fact is, noone complaines about understeer on corner entry, everyone complains about understeer on corner exit - as entering the corner too slow and then raping the throttle while still turning in is the most common mistake people make and the cause of most understeer complaints..
> ...


if you have an RS, from what i've read about RS and even S haldex it already is a preemptive haldex controller and the haldex unit has a bigger electric pump to aid preemptive locking... i dont really see what a "sportier" haldex controller will be able to do... perhaps it might be a bit more aggresive but i doubt a huge difference...

haldex sport controler is a must for older TTs that have haldex controlers that only react to front wheel slip...

i would like someone to confirm this opinion


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## McKenzie (Dec 25, 2008)

> I understand what you are saying however that is not my preferred driving style...sure, I brake for very tight bends however I prefer to use low gear / engine braking when I can instead - when it works, I have greater control whilst maintaining a desired speed threshold. Infact, I prefer to judge ahead and maintain higher speed...using gearing to reduce or increase speed as required...this style of driving served me well in my 993 RS - missed selling the damn thing though.


You really shouldnt use the engine to brake though, the idea of heal and toe is to illiminate engine braking. Obviously you cant with a auto box but your brakes are used for braking not your engine, it's really quite bad for the longevity of your engine and gearbox components.


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## [email protected] (Aug 4, 2009)

Black Knight said:


> if you have an RS, from what i've read about RS and even S haldex it already is a preemptive haldex controller and the haldex unit has a bigger electric pump to aid preemptive locking... i dont really see what a "sportier" haldex controller will be able to do... perhaps it might be a bit more aggresive but i doubt a huge difference...
> 
> haldex sport controler is a must for older TTs that have haldex controlers that only react to front wheel slip...
> 
> i would like someone to confirm this opinion


 Well, it does however for my style of driving the the process is occuring later than I want hence when reading up on the Haldex Sports Controller, I thought that might do the trick on my TT-RS.

I also own a MK1 TTQ 180...I might actually fit the Sports Controller to that and see what difference it has - which may help my decision inregards to the handling characteristic that am looking for in my TT-RS Roadster.


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## Black Knight (Jan 16, 2007)

a very simple rule about track driving is that you should NEVER coast... simple as that..


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## [email protected] (Aug 4, 2009)

McKenzie said:


> > I understand what you are saying however that is not my preferred driving style...sure, I brake for very tight bends however I prefer to use low gear / engine braking when I can instead - when it works, I have greater control whilst maintaining a desired speed threshold. Infact, I prefer to judge ahead and maintain higher speed...using gearing to reduce or increase speed as required...this style of driving served me well in my 993 RS - missed selling the damn thing though.
> 
> 
> You really shouldnt use the engine to brake though, the idea of heal and toe is to illiminate engine braking. Obviously you cant with a auto box but your brakes are used for braking not your engine, it's really quite bad for the longevity of your engine and gearbox components.


I do not keep any of my cars long enough to worry about long term damage...I usually get shot of them after the warranty runs out...though the 355 did stay longer than most because selling that was emotionally very difficult, if you know what I mean :wink:


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## McKenzie (Dec 25, 2008)

996cab said:


> Black Knight said:
> 
> 
> > if you have an RS, from what i've read about RS and even S haldex it already is a preemptive haldex controller and the haldex unit has a bigger electric pump to aid preemptive locking... i dont really see what a "sportier" haldex controller will be able to do... perhaps it might be a bit more aggresive but i doubt a huge difference...
> ...


If money is'nt an issue i would say go for it, I think you should tune your audi to how you want.


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## Black Knight (Jan 16, 2007)

996cab said:


> Black Knight said:
> 
> 
> > if you have an RS, from what i've read about RS and even S haldex it already is a preemptive haldex controller and the haldex unit has a bigger electric pump to aid preemptive locking... i dont really see what a "sportier" haldex controller will be able to do... perhaps it might be a bit more aggresive but i doubt a huge difference...
> ...


the haldex controller can either react to front wheel slip or preeemptively react to throttle input... it doesnt have anything to trigger it earlier - it would need to read you mind for this... TT-RS should be reacting to throttle input... only solution for your problem is that "ultra sport" controller that keeps haldex engaged all the time... i doubt that's a good idea, im sure it would destroy the haldex coupling very soon and strain the whole drivetrain and destroy tires and cause skipping in sharp turns... also would mess up ABS functioning... bad idea simply... unless you build a car only for gravel and snow and plan on disengaging ABS anyway


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## Black Knight (Jan 16, 2007)

the real question here is, why on earth did you not buy an R8?


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## McKenzie (Dec 25, 2008)

Black Knight said:


> the real question here is, why on earth did you not buy an R8?


Question is what would handle better? TT RS or R8?


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## [email protected] (Aug 4, 2009)

Black Knight said:


> only solution for your problem is that "ultra sport" controller that keeps haldex engaged all the time... i doubt that's a good idea, im sure it would destroy the haldex coupling very soon and strain the whole drivetrain and destroy tires and cause skipping in sharp turns... also would mess up ABS functioning... bad idea simply... unless you build a car only for gravel and snow and plan on disengaging ABS anyway


Well, that is the risk really unless I completely change my driving style to suit the weaponry at hand. The odd thing is, this is the first car that I just can not get it to do what I have been able to do in all previous cars to date all be it with some small tweaks and changes...am not in to big changes on delivered products...did all that 20 years ago...I just want to drive nowadays...


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## Black Knight (Jan 16, 2007)

McKenzie said:


> Black Knight said:
> 
> 
> > the real question here is, why on earth did you not buy an R8?
> ...


lol

mid engined all double wishbone low CG wider car with proper drivetrain layout and no on/off haldex issues...

only thing wrong with the R8 is the gearbox..


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## McKenzie (Dec 25, 2008)

Black Knight said:


> McKenzie said:
> 
> 
> > Black Knight said:
> ...


....and the engine's they put in them, my dad is on his 3rd engine, not bad for 7 months old and 900 miles on the car.


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## [email protected] (Aug 4, 2009)

Black Knight said:


> the real question here is, why on earth did you not buy an R8?


Stop it!

I bought the TT-RS on impulse...I was in Berlin on business, came across the car specs on the net and thought...now, that sounds OK and since most people think the TT is a girlie car, no one else would buy one so should be 'exclsuive' and IF RS4 and R8 are anything to go by, should be a real monster...which it is however, I know what I want and feel am VERY CLOSE hence the changes.

R8 just did not tickle me also there was no Roadster version immediately and I simply was not tickled...I had V8s at the time and just did not want another...


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## [email protected] (Aug 4, 2009)

McKenzie said:


> ....and the engine's they put in them, my dad is on his 3rd engine, not bad for 7 months old and 900 miles on the car.


 That is what the warranty is there for...I simply 'use' all my cars 'very well' whilst they are under warranty...best time for it to break IMO.


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## McKenzie (Dec 25, 2008)

996cab said:


> McKenzie said:
> 
> 
> > ....and the engine's they put in them, my dad is on his 3rd engine, not bad for 7 months old and 900 miles on the car.
> ...


Yeah but your stuffed if something goes wrong after 3 years of ownership, and if you dont treat you engine right that can be an expensive mistake. Some fool blew his RS up after 1300 miles on here, now that deserves some tea and medals!


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## [email protected] (Aug 4, 2009)

McKenzie said:


> 996cab said:
> 
> 
> > McKenzie said:
> ...


As I said, I sell when warranty runs out or I take extended warranty however often does not offer same cover as factory warranty.

Cars will break however, clearly it is best when the car under warranty than otherwise.


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## Poverty (Dec 21, 2009)

McKenzie said:


> 996cab said:
> 
> 
> > McKenzie said:
> ...


Thread link to that at all mate?

Also i might be worthing noting that all the mainstream car manufacturers, including bmw all dial in understeer into their vehicles on purpose, seeing as joe bloggs who buy the cars do so only on the basis that they like to look flash, instead of enthusiasts who like to hoon it around the track etc.


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## mikef4uk (Jan 15, 2006)

Black Knight said:


> a very simple rule about track driving is that you should NEVER coast... simple as that..


Basically if your not either braking or accelerating you are wasting time, we were at Croft once and around 1 sec off the pole pace, looking at the data logging my driver was using 5th where he should have held 4th and also taking 0.6 second between coming off the power to back on for gearchanges (should be around 0.4sec), adding all these little bits up plus the not required gear change meant he was effectively 'cruising' for around 4 seconds, I gave him a little bit of a hard time and we ended up on the front row!

If you don't drive the car how it's been designed to be driven it will not respond correctly, I agree it does have an understeer tendancy but you need to be very carefull in your approach to sort it mechanically, if you dial understeer out when you are not driving it correctly one day you will enter a corner far too fast by mistake and find a whole steering rack of over steer.

I have found that if the TTS is driven hard and correctly there is very little understeer left, it's a rather clever balance really, drive it half hearted like a girlie and you get understeer, drive it hard and correctly and you get very little understeer, you don;t get oversteer mind you, there is a 'favourite' road I go down in the TTS as well as my 2009 R1 and driven correctly I reckon the TTS is every bit as quick as the bike, it becomes so sure footed once you grab the thing by the neck


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## McKenzie (Dec 25, 2008)

> Thread link to that at all mate?
> 
> Also i might be worthing noting that all the mainstream car manufacturers, including bmw all dial in understeer into their vehicles on purpose, seeing as joe bloggs who buy the cars do so only on the basis that they like to look flash, instead of enthusiasts who like to hoon it around the track etc.


There you go
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=158734&hilit=engine


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## mikef4uk (Jan 15, 2006)

McKenzie said:


> > I understand what you are saying however that is not my preferred driving style...sure, I brake for very tight bends however I prefer to use low gear / engine braking when I can instead - when it works, I have greater control whilst maintaining a desired speed threshold. Infact, I prefer to judge ahead and maintain higher speed...using gearing to reduce or increase speed as required...this style of driving served me well in my 993 RS - missed selling the damn thing though.
> 
> 
> You really shouldnt use the engine to brake though, the idea of heal and toe is to illiminate engine braking. Obviously you cant with a auto box but your brakes are used for braking not your engine, it's really quite bad for the longevity of your engine and gearbox components.


The idea of 'heel and toeing' is NOT to eliminate engine braking it is to ensure a smooth transistion with no upsetting jerks when changing down whilst braking, in this respect the DSG will always perform that better than 99% of drivers @ 99% of the time, to lose the engine braking your going to need to fiddle with the engine ecu--a little like Yamaha do with the latest R1 where the 'fly by wire' throttle opens the throttle up to 4% when decellerating


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## McKenzie (Dec 25, 2008)

I think youl find it is used to stop the wheels snatching and locking when going down the gears therefore it stops the engine braking as much. It is also used to be smooth yes.


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## mikef4uk (Jan 15, 2006)

McKenzie said:


> > Thread link to that at all mate?
> >
> > Also i might be worthing noting that all the mainstream car manufacturers, including bmw all dial in understeer into their vehicles on purpose, seeing as joe bloggs who buy the cars do so only on the basis that they like to look flash, instead of enthusiasts who like to hoon it around the track etc.
> 
> ...


He's a little vague to say the least of why it blew except for saying he was flat out and there was no oil in it, what did he expect to happen? engine oil level drops accordingly with how fast it's turning as it leaves more spread around the engine ( it still takes the same time to return to the sump or oil tanK (if dry sumped)) and dry sump isn't the whole answer as the scavange pump still needs to collect the oil, something it can't always do under heavy braking/accelerating, Porsche used up to 3 seperate scavange pumps on some race cars


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## [email protected] (Aug 4, 2009)

So in essence the opinions here are that the TT-RS and TTS are both setup OK and that it is the manner in which it is driven that needs to either be changed or examined?

If that is the case, then I accept that as I have previously stated on the AWForum that the TT-RS is technically more challenging to drive properly for me than any other car I have owned thus far - I like that...and I guess it makes car the car more of an engaging weapon.


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## Black Knight (Jan 16, 2007)

mikef4uk said:


> Black Knight said:
> 
> 
> > a very simple rule about track driving is that you should NEVER coast... simple as that..
> ...


i couldnt agree more on everything..


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## R5T (Apr 24, 2008)

Apparently there is a big difference between the "Magnetic ride" and "Sport suspension" version.
And by most tests they are not clear about it which of the two is in there during that particular test.


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## mikef4uk (Jan 15, 2006)

R5T said:


> Apparently there is a big difference between the "Magnetic ride" and "Sport suspension" version.
> And by most tests they are not clear about it which of the two is in there during that particular test.


Can you explain a little more on this point?


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## R5T (Apr 24, 2008)

mikef4uk said:


> Can you explain a little more on this point?


You can order the TT RS with a mechanical "Sport suspension" and with a electrically 2 mode "Magnetic ride" suspension.
It look like you get also 2 different acting cars based on that.


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## conneem (Nov 4, 2006)

mikef4uk said:


> R5T said:
> 
> 
> > Apparently there is a big difference between the "Magnetic ride" and "Sport suspension" version.
> ...


I think in the RS the mag ride setting is changed with the Sport button, so no separate button for it.


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## R5T (Apr 24, 2008)

conneem said:


> mikef4uk said:
> 
> 
> > R5T said:
> ...


Yes, the sport button also change steering, throttle response and exhaust valve.


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## Wallsendmag (Feb 12, 2004)

If i put a RS badge on mine will it understeer ?
Warrning this post may be fuelled by alcohol


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## Black Knight (Jan 16, 2007)

btw. as weather conditions have worsened recently in my country(croatia) and i have had a few trips planned for holidays i had the opportunity to drive the TT on the open roads a lot and also some nice mountain motorways that look like they came out of need for speed.

i have encountered more than several spots/corners/places where the car naturally oversteers. run into a corner with constant speed(i have had this happen even when using cruise control) and the car starts oversteering until ESP starts cutting in. now i have not had this happen in the dry, but i have had, as said, more than several such experiences in the wet. i did push the car, not aggresively, just kept going into corners carrying a lot of speed, but no trailbraking and even so it oversteered without any provoking by me.

as my car is perfectly stock and i keep my geometry in check regularly and also tire pressures - obviously this behaviour is what you can expect from any TT. furthermore, mine is a V6 so some would say that it understeers even more.

now imagine that i have set up my car for less understeer/more oversteer by installing different suspension mods. how would then the car behave in the moments mentioned above? anyone could guess - even worse. and it would happen a lot more often.

you do not want it to happen more often, well maybe you do, but it will also happen when you dont want it to. 
going into unexpected/unwanted oversteer at 115mph during pouring rain is not a nice feeling, trust me.

it is these situations, rare as they might be, especially depending on the driving style, that i urge people not to dwelve too much on the supposed understeer issue or even worse, try to "fix" it.


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