# Should Clarkson go or stay on Top Gear?



## bigdodge (Apr 22, 2012)

I know this is a sensitive issue but thought I would ask people's views on this. The moderators might not even allow it but let's see.


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## spaceplace (Mar 10, 2013)

Stay! Clarkson hilarious, it's good that he doesn't give a s***! Is this about the racist thing? It wasn't even aired

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## Shug750S (Feb 6, 2012)

Stay, he only says half the things he says to get publicity for the programme, and mostly nothing more than you & your mates say in the pub. It's not what you say it's the context.

Half on Lenny Henry's stuff would have been banned if he wasn't of African origin...

Too many people being PC at present,


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## spaceplace (Mar 10, 2013)

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## bigdodge (Apr 22, 2012)

Should stay. The guy made a public apology and he probably said it in jest, anyway, plus it was not directed at anyone. If he goes that would be the end of Top Gear - no one can replace him, he is funny.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

I honestly doubt that he said the 'n word', but really who cares. It was a crap attempt at a childish joke that relied on people being shocked that he _might have_ mumbled a naughty word. I despair that there are people out there who still find his contrived, school boy humour entertaining. People like to defend Clarkson by talking about 'political correctness', but really that's missing the point - I don't care if his jokes are 'controversial' or not, they're just s***.


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## Pugwash69 (Jun 12, 2012)

He's explained what he mumbled publicly. The Mirror should be banned or censored to report only actual news.

Clarkson is a cock, but he entertains us. He IS Top Gear.


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## Callum-TT (Jun 3, 2013)

Stay. I think people need to get a grip.


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## igotone (Mar 10, 2010)

Clarkson is an arrogant tw*t at times and his remarks are intended to court controversy , he thrives on it with his conceited public schoolboy mindset, but he's sailed just a little too close to the wind with this latest bad taste remark.

Having said that we hear the word all the time from black folks , many of whom refer to each other using the word and use it as a form of greeting. If it's unacceptable then it needs to be unacceptable regardless of whose lips utter it. There's a double standard operating which doesn't help matters in the least.


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## milanonick (Sep 15, 2013)

This is blatantly a witch hunt against Clarkson who in my opinion is an entertaining presenter not to be taken too seriously.

Couple that with the fact that rappers use the N word in every second sentence and we just take it as normal, then someone possibly, vaguely, nearly says it in a piece of audio that has to be analysed to even think you've heard it and it's an outrage.

Somewhat hypocritical in my opinion.


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## YELLOW_TT (Feb 25, 2004)

STAY hes the best part of the show


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## malstt (Apr 18, 2007)

I agree without him the show wouldn't be the same.

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## spaceplace (Mar 10, 2013)

Just heard it on the radio, he doesn't really say it but you know that's what he's kind of saying as its the old rhyme "catch a n by his toe, if he sequels let him go" he then contacted the BBC and said he was going through the video and he said it sounds like he said it but he didn't, he then told the BBC to use another video. You have to remember he's pretty old and it was a common rhyme back in the day. I don't think he's done anything wrong, especially as he told the BBC not to use it (even though he didn't say it but it may sound like he did) what more can he do?

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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

spaceplace said:


> Just heard it on the radio, he doesn't really say it but you know that's what he's kind of saying as its the old rhyme "catch a n by his toe, if he sequels let him go" he then contacted the BBC and said he was going through the video and he said it sounds like he said it but he didn't, he then told the BBC to use another video. You have to remember he's pretty old and it was a common rhyme back in the day. I don't think he's done anything wrong, especially as he told the BBC not to use it (even though he didn't say it but it may sound like he did) what more can he do?
> 
> Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk


It will have been scripted and there were at least two takes where he deliberately mumbled the word, so him being old has nothing to do with it. The production team knew about it and presumably decided against putting that version in the show.

Really, it doesn't matter if he actually said it or not, because the whole point of the joke is that there's a word you're not supposed to say, but by mumbling it everyone knows what the word was without you saying it. All the halfwits sitting at home then chuckle to themselves like school boys who've just heard a naughty word. Repeat 20 times, shout "POWER!!!" at the camera, 'accidentally' get the name of some popular social media site wrong - Job done. Move onto the next episode. Jesus, I could be a Top Gear producer...


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## MO-TT (Feb 20, 2014)

Stay he's a comical genius and this whole scandal on the news is outrageous

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## SteviedTT (Apr 10, 2009)

If racism is seen where there was none intended, is that not itself, racist :? 
He should stay and should also be the next Prime Minister :lol:


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## Danny1 (Sep 2, 2010)

Spandex said:


> spaceplace said:
> 
> 
> > Just heard it on the radio, he doesn't really say it but you know that's what he's kind of saying as its the old rhyme "catch a n by his toe, if he sequels let him go" he then contacted the BBC and said he was going through the video and he said it sounds like he said it but he didn't, he then told the BBC to use another video. You have to remember he's pretty old and it was a common rhyme back in the day. I don't think he's done anything wrong, especially as he told the BBC not to use it (even though he didn't say it but it may sound like he did) what more can he do?
> ...


Yep its that easy, that's why your typing about it on a forum and he's a millionaire :lol:

Get off your high horse, you don't like Top gear great for you, don't watch it, millions do like it are they all wrong for doing so??


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

SteviedTT said:


> If racism is seen where there was none intended, is that not itself, racist :?


No.


Danny1 said:


> you don't like Top gear great for you, don't watch it, millions do like it are they all wrong for doing so??


Yes.


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## NickG (Aug 15, 2013)

I'm glad (Almost) everyone agrees that the guys has done naff all wrong!!

If he hummed the rhyme which contains the word in would it still be racist? All three takes, he deliberately made the attempt to mumble the word, get over it... just another load of media S***.

It actually annoys me that he's had to apologize... for nothing :evil:


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

We used to sing that rhyme when children....

Catch a tigger by the toe.......


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## NickG (Aug 15, 2013)

brian1978 said:


> We used to sing that rhyme when children....
> 
> Catch a tigger by the toe.......


Ah yeah!!!! That's what we used to say! Whats a tigger though?! And why did i never question what a tigger was at the time!? :lol:


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

NickG said:


> brian1978 said:
> 
> 
> > We used to sing that rhyme when children....
> ...


Always thought it was yon thing from winnie the pooh.


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## bigdodge (Apr 22, 2012)

Just as Brian said Tigger is a fictional tiger character originally introduced in A. A. Milne's book The House at Pooh Corner


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

Spandex said:


> Danny1 said:
> 
> 
> > you don't like Top gear great for you, don't watch it, millions do like it are they all wrong for doing so??
> ...


But you commentated earlier on the typical content of a show, so do you watch it or not?

And if you never do watch it how can you pass judgement on... 
1. The show
2. Its viewers


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## Tenchi (Apr 5, 2014)

Stay, he's forever making comments like a bellend as May puts it. That doesn't mean it's right, but that doesn't mean he's racist. Just my 2p ^_^


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

brian1978 said:


> But you commentated earlier on the typical content of a show, so do you watch it or not?
> 
> And if you never do watch it how can you pass judgement on...
> 1. The show
> 2. Its viewers


Don't take everything so seriously...

Of course I've seen Top Gear plenty of times, although let's face it, you only need to watch a couple of episodes to get the measure of it because it doesn't exactly vary. I think I've seen one episode of the latest series though, and it was so bad I didn't bother watching any others. There's only so many times I can watch the carefully scripted incompetence schtick before it gets boring.


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

Spandex said:


> brian1978 said:
> 
> 
> > But you commentated earlier on the typical content of a show, so do you watch it or not?
> ...


Well I like it, its fake and scripted but its also quite hilarious. Guess I must be one of the "halfwits at home" that you were on about. :roll:


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## mighTy Tee (Jul 10, 2002)

Before the start of Dam Busters the announcer these days always makes an apologetic comment about the historical correct name of Guy Gibson's dog.


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

mighTy Tee said:


> Before the start of Dam Busters the announcer these days always makes an apologetic comment about the historical correct name of Guy Gibson's dog.


God help these people if they ever watch blazing saddles :lol:


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## Bartsimpsonhead (Aug 14, 2011)

Stay - To people of a certain age such rhymes were commonly said in junior school playgrounds when trying to choose sides in games, so it's nothing controversial to me.

Of course that was when 'The Black & White Minstrel Show' was prime-time Saturday night tv, Alf Garnett and 'Love Thy Neighbour' were the hit comedies of their day, and people used to laugh at racists rather than with them.

I find it odd that people can get offended by such words at all today - _'sticks and stones may brake my bones but words will never hurt me'_ - so all this PC-ness really amuses me.

Like, say what you want I won't take offence because at the end of the day it means nothing to me as it's only a word. And as has been said black rappers use it in lyrics all the time. Even the ever popular Tarantino films use it loads, and you don't hear much about the 'The Daily Bigot' wanting them banned. So it's a bit of a witch hunt the Mail has against Clarkson at the moment. Funny that - them targeting one of their own Tory supporters.

Years ago there was an interesting film staring Dustin Hoffman about the life of legendary jewish American comedian Lenny Bruce who pushed the taboos in the 1950s - mainly about how he was persecuted by 'the man' because he challenged the values of the time - but it highlighted how words shouldn't be invested with the power to shock or offend as they are, you know, just words and if people reclaimed them and made them non-offensive then they loose all power.


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## red3.2 (Jun 30, 2008)

mighTy Tee said:


> Before the start of Dam Busters the announcer these days always makes an apologetic comment about the historical correct name of Guy Gibson's dog.


I was going to mention this myself. Couldn't believe what I was hearing.


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## Pugwash69 (Jun 12, 2012)

My wife has a knitting pattern with N* Brown as a colour of wool required.
I guess modern context would call it Poo Brown!


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## Shug750S (Feb 6, 2012)

Pugwash69 said:


> My wife has a knitting pattern with N* Brown as a colour of wool required.
> I guess modern context would call it Poo Brown!


Now you've started a whole new racist discussion.

" I was in croydon today and there were loads of poos around"

One rapper to another " Yo poo"


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## YELLOW_TT (Feb 25, 2004)

brian1978 said:


> Spandex said:
> 
> 
> > brian1978 said:
> ...


Another halfwit at home here


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## spaceplace (Mar 10, 2013)

The scripts p*** me off


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## Bucks85th (Apr 27, 2009)

brian1978 said:


> mighTy Tee said:
> 
> 
> > Before the start of Dam Busters the announcer these days always makes an apologetic comment about the historical correct name of Guy Gibson's dog.
> ...


I've heard Hollywood are planning a remake of the Dambusters. I've heard the dog will be called Digger. As it's Hollywood, it wouldn't surprise me if it was the USAAF rather than the RAF, they'll be flying B-17s and it will be Chuck Gibson and Sir Hank Wallace

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## Azreal (Mar 7, 2013)

I'm not sure if he should be sacked of not. I don't find hm as amusing as I used so I guess I must be growing up....or something. I guess it all comes down to context. 30 odd years ago it was ok for jimmy Saville to fiddle with underage kids, didn't make it right then and so if you (at nobody in particular) feel it was accepted back in the day then I guess that says more about you than anything else. Usage of such terms in movies by actors carries context. Mr clarkson is using his personality in a pseudo reality show. So whether he meant to say it or not, he's ugly enough to know better. He could have used any number of other rhymes. Don't get me wrong I think everybody is a little racist and anyone claiming otherwise is just being disingenuous.

Having just read back my own post. He should be sacked.


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

Bucks85th said:


> brian1978 said:
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> 
> > mighTy Tee said:
> ...


After having the displeasure of watching the most rediculous film in history, U571, it wouldn't surprise me.


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

Azreal said:


> I'm not sure if he should be sacked of not. I don't find hm as amusing as I used so I guess I must be growing up....or something. I guess it all comes down to context. 30 odd years ago it was ok for jimmy Saville to fiddle with underage kids, didn't make it right then and so if you (at nobody in particular) feel it was accepted back in the day then I guess that says more about you than anything else. Usage of such terms in movies by actors carries context. Mr clarkson is using his personality in a pseudo reality show. So whether he meant to say it or not, he's ugly enough to know better. He could have used any number of other rhymes. Don't get me wrong I think everybody is a little racist and anyone claiming otherwise is just being disingenuous.
> 
> Having just read back my own post. He should be sacked.


You miss one small detail... he didnt actualy say anything. :?

I think its hardly fair to compair the Jimmy Savile case to the mumblings of Jeremy Clarkson, and it wasnt OK to fiddle with kids 30 years ago, no normal person would think that. no mater what context its in. :lol:


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## bigdodge (Apr 22, 2012)

Azreal said:


> Having just read back my own post. He should be sacked.


I think that is a bit harsh to say sacking would be deserved. Hope you not jumping on that MP band wagon, who is looking for political mileage.


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## Azreal (Mar 7, 2013)

brian1978 said:


> Azreal said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not sure if he should be sacked of not. I don't find hm as amusing as I used so I guess I must be growing up....or something. I guess it all comes down to context. 30 odd years ago it was ok for jimmy Saville to fiddle with underage kids, didn't make it right then and so if you (at nobody in particular) feel it was accepted back in the day then I guess that says more about you than anything else. Usage of such terms in movies by actors carries context. Mr clarkson is using his personality in a pseudo reality show. So whether he meant to say it or not, he's ugly enough to know better. He could have used any number of other rhymes. Don't get me wrong I think everybody is a little racist and anyone claiming otherwise is just being disingenuous.
> ...


I've hear the clip a number of times. It sounds like he said it to me. My point is some posters have mentioned that it USED to be ok to say the rhyme some time ago. According to popular reports some the Jimmy Saville victims we're told that they should be flattered by the attention. A number of people either helped cover it up or were culpable. It was even common knowledge around the BBC at the time that jimmy liked em young. So if you can excuse something because it was ok a time ago doesn't mean it's acceptable now.


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## Azreal (Mar 7, 2013)

bigdodge said:


> Azreal said:
> 
> 
> > Having just read back my own post. He should be sacked.
> ...


If I went around at work saying what he said (and let's not parse words wether he mumbled it or not. It could be heard) I'd expect to get sacked. I don't care if he's a racist or not.


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## Callum-TT (Jun 3, 2013)

I believe this witch hunt is basically down to political reasons.

Clarkson is a massive Tory yet the media which is reporting this and the MP's condemning him are all Labour.


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## bigdodge (Apr 22, 2012)

You will find in a lot of these scenarios people attack the person involved for other reasons other than what the matter is about. Some of these attackers maybe don't care about what he said but using it as an excuse to attack the guy, perhaps they don't like him or fuelling the fire in order to get some form of recognition.


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

From the little I see of him I find him entertaining although I don't personally agree with his views on many things.

He was comparing two similar cars and using a common expression (I was brought up with "catch a piggy" and know no better). I saw the videos including his apology - apparently two attempts to mumble his way through before deciding it best to say "teacher". He's a controversial character but it sounded like he made the right decision to avoid it. Shame the reporting does not always give the full story.

Could people not swear outside the flame room please. I have to go round and delete it which is a hassle. Thanks.


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## Bartsimpsonhead (Aug 14, 2011)

Azreal said:


> brian1978 said:
> 
> 
> > Azreal said:
> ...


I don't think verbal abuse is in any way as serious as physical abuse - saying what some might consider rude words at someone is a whole different ball-game to actually physically touching or interfearing with someone. "Sticks and stones..." and all that.
Yes Saville deserves to burn in the deepest firey pit of Hell, but comparing Clarkson uttering (or not) a word from an old nursery rhyme to Saville kiddie-fiddling is completely over the top.

I understand this story was first brought up by The Mirror newspaper - I wonder how much of that is to do with crest-fallen Piers Morgan being an ex-editor of that paper, who might still have friends there who'd like to take Sun columnist Clarkson down a peg-or-two? Revenge is a dish best served splashed over the front page.


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## roddy (Dec 25, 2008)

Spandex said:


> I honestly doubt that he said the 'n word', but really who cares. It was a crap attempt at a childish joke that relied on people being shocked that he _might have_ mumbled a naughty word. I despair that there are people out there who still find his contrived, school boy humour entertaining. People like to defend Clarkson by talking about 'political correctness', but really that's missing the point - I don't care if his jokes are 'controversial' or not, they're just s***.


OMG !!! I totally agree with Spandy   !! but I am also one of the half wits who watch the prog, ( always in hope rather than expectation of some improvement ),,,,,,,,,, nowadays it is nothing more than a poorly scripted sit com with cars as a theme, but it does have an " audience ",, bloody halfwits !! :lol:


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## bigdodge (Apr 22, 2012)

I watch it because I like cars not for jokes but I do have to say Clarkson makes it interesting and at the moment no one can do it the same.


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## Hibbsy (Mar 3, 2013)

Personally, I can't believe the amount of fuss and discussion about it. Surely there are better things to worry about other than what he did or didn't say in an out take?


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## spaceplace (Mar 10, 2013)

Hibbsy said:


> Personally, I can't believe the amount of fuss and discussion about it. Surely there are better things to worry about other than what he did or didn't say in an out take?


I think you're totally right, but it's always the same, there's people starving and people who have no clean water and then there's people who say a bad word and somehow it's more important? It's really sad and pathetic tbh

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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

spaceplace said:


> Hibbsy said:
> 
> 
> > Personally, I can't believe the amount of fuss and discussion about it. Surely there are better things to worry about other than what he did or didn't say in an out take?
> ...


Sadly, the most important news story in the world will always be the one that sells the most papers.


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## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

Are we allowed to say white honky?

Do I get upset being called a white honky?

This is just pathetic. There are more important things wrong in the world to worry about.


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

I think we should all love thy neighbor Rich. :wink:

It's funny, that TV programme was perhaps an attempt to change attitudes then but couldn't be repeated today as thankfully we've moved on.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

rustyintegrale said:


> Are we allowed to say white honky?
> 
> Do I get upset being called a white honky?
> 
> This is just pathetic. There are more important things wrong in the world to worry about.


And if I call my mate 'knobhead' all the time and he's cool with that, he can't be offended when someone he doesn't know calls him a knobhead on the street, right? But then he would be offended, because it's about the context, not the word itself.

I think that's why some people seem to struggle with the concept of racism so much - because racism is about context and context is too subtle for them to understand. If you look for 'rules' about what you can or can't say, you're bound to find inconsistencies. That's not because racism doesn't exist, or because people have double standards - it's because you can't have a 'one size fits all' rule for something that is entirely dependent on the context in which it's said.


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## rustyintegrale (Oct 1, 2006)

Spandex said:


> rustyintegrale said:
> 
> 
> > Are we allowed to say white honky?
> ...


Agreed. But that's where self-control and some assessment of the situation comes into consideration.

Unless I completely misunderstood the Clarkson thing, he was reciting a nursery rhyme. There have also been comments made in the press about the Elvis Costello song, 'Oliver's Army' and its references to 'white n-i-g-g-e-r'.

The BBC has apparently been suggesting that this should no longer be played without editing. It all seems a bit ridiculous and does not take 'context' into consideration.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

rustyintegrale said:


> Agreed. But that's where self-control and some assessment of the situation comes into consideration.
> 
> Unless I completely misunderstood the Clarkson thing, he was reciting a nursery rhyme. There have also been comments made in the press about the Elvis Costello song, 'Oliver's Army' and its references to 'white n-i-g-g-e-r'.
> 
> The BBC has apparently been suggesting that this should no longer be played without editing. It all seems a bit ridiculous and does not take 'context' into consideration.


Well the nature of a broadcast is that it can be seen by anyone, so you lose control of the context to some degree. This can be particularly true for something like music radio where a song, on its own, doesn't really have context unless you happen to know the song and its history. I think this worries broadcasters, so they err on the side of caution, although this can of course lead to situations where they appear overly sensitive and censor things that probably don't need to be.

Clarkson was reciting a nursery rhyme, but let's not pretend it was chosen spontaneously as he casually chatted to camera. The point of the 'joke' was that the rhyme had an offensive word in it, and Clarkson would pretend to get halfway through before realising he was in trouble - then he'd pretend to mumble the word to avoid saying it. It was set up from the start like this. Now if you go back to what we were saying about context, was it just an innocent nursery rhyme with the 'rude' word obscured, or was it a famously bigoted white man with a history of making prejudiced remarks about other nationalities and races using a racist rhyme to get a cheap laugh?


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## Hibbsy (Mar 3, 2013)

I'll be honest, I didn't even know that version of the rhyme until I heard it this week.


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

Yes, I'd been brought up with the word piggy in it and it all seemed innocent to me until someone told me of another version. The first few nonsense words of the rhyme are certainly an expression used when choosing in common parlance and I think many are ignorant of the derivation and the words following. That doesn't make _them_ bad to use it.

Did you know that the derivation of the word "slut" was from the early title of Cinderella "Cinderellaslut" in Victorian times and carried no sexual connotation? The "slut" part just meant dirty in that she was covered in ashes from raking the cinders.

Many fairy stories and rhymes have a dubious past or indeed elements later took on a dubious meaning from an early innocence. Context is everything though and it depends if someone means to, or doesn't care if, they offend I think.


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## zltm089 (Jul 27, 2009)

John-H said:


> Did you know that the derivation of the word "slut" was from the early title of Cinderella "Cinderellaslut" in Victorian times and carried no sexual connotation? The "slut" part just meant dirty in that she was covered in ashes from raking the cinders.
> 
> Many fairy stories and rhymes have a dubious past or indeed elements later took on a dubious meaning from an early innocence. Context is everything though and it depends if someone means to, or doesn't care if, they offend I think.


 [smiley=book2.gif] very interesting info about the word slut! i always knew cinderella was a dirty slut!


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

John-H said:


> Did you know that the derivation of the word "slut" was from the early title of Cinderella "Cinderellaslut" in Victorian times and carried no sexual connotation? The "slut" part just meant dirty in that she was covered in ashes from raking the cinders.


As Godfrey Bloom discovered, not many people know the original meaning of that word. Although he had a habit of 'doing a Clarkson', so I think UKIP probably decided it was a good excuse to push him out the party before he said something really offensive. Although in UKIP, the background noise level of offensiveness is so high you need a healthy signal to noise ratio to get yourself noticed...



John-H said:


> Many fairy stories and rhymes have a dubious past or indeed elements later took on a dubious meaning from an early innocence. Context is everything though and it depends if someone means to, or doesn't care if, they offend I think.


Exactly. I don't think Clarkson meant to offend (although I doubt he gave it much thought beyond worrying about what he could get away with), but he traded on the 'dubious past' of that nursery rhyme in order to get a cheap laugh. I can see why some people might think that's not on.


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## Danny1 (Sep 2, 2010)

rustyintegrale said:


> Are we allowed to say white honky?
> 
> Do I get upset being called a white honky?
> 
> This is just pathetic. There are more important things wrong in the world to worry about.


I agree with this, what about being called fat, bald, thin, stupid? Plenty of people will be called for being Scottish/Irish but they don't set up groups to fight racism?? Peoples differences will always be picked on but if you call a black person black its the end of the world!

This is the way the world is going, just look at Top gear, "slope" phrase, a few little stories and its over, N-word and look I cant even type it or it will upset someone on here, front page news in the tabloids and calling for him to be sacked!


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## bigdodge (Apr 22, 2012)

Almost every race if not every race has some derogatory word or term that can cause upset or some form of grievance. I believe upset is usually caused by the way these words are used, therefore people should be careful how and when they are used. Some people are more sensitive than others or I should say thick-skinned- no pun intended.


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## mighTy Tee (Jul 10, 2002)

Some people would call me a "bald headed fat bastard". I would take offence as my parents were married when I was conceived. 

Seriously though the most racist person I ever met was of African or Afro-Caribbean origin who complained about any comment which may or may not have been said with any racist innuendo before spouting her vitriolic anti-white (or Asian) crap. Fortunately she was a temp so it was easy to remove her from the workplace.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

I think equating racism to an insult is missing the point slightly. Racism isn't the equivalent of calling someone fat or bald, other than on the most superficial level.

If fat people earned less money, or bald people were significantly more likely to get stopped by the Police then it might be a better analogy. Or maybe if, in the not too distant past, ginger people were forced to use different public amenities because they were considered sub-human, we could draw a comparison.

Racism isn't offensive because of the words used, it's offensive because of the implications.


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## mighTy Tee (Jul 10, 2002)

Spandex said:


> I think equating racism to an insult is missing the point slightly. Racism isn't the equivalent of calling someone fat or bald, other than on the most superficial level.
> 
> If fat people earned less money, or bald people were significantly more likely to get stopped by the Police then it might be a better analogy. Or maybe if, in the not too distant past, ginger people were forced to use different public amenities because they were considered sub-human, we could draw a comparison.
> 
> Racism isn't offensive because of the words used, it's offensive because of the implications.


I am genetically bald, in the same way as someone genetically coloured/race. Some people could be said to be genetically fat although in most cases (and certainly mine) it is a "lifestyle choice".

Regardless of race, colour or creed, we are all human and it is our genetic make up that makes us all superficially different which might be is skin colour, build (slim to large), eye colour or hair colour etc.

Therefore IMO calling me bald is exactly the same as making a racist comment. However early in life I learnt "sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me".


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

mighTy Tee said:


> I am genetically bald, in the same way as someone genetically coloured/race. Some people could be said to be genetically fat although in most cases (and certainly mine) it is a "lifestyle choice".
> 
> Regardless of race, colour or creed, we are all human and it is our genetic make up that makes us all superficially different which might be is skin colour, build (slim to large), eye colour or hair colour etc.
> 
> Therefore IMO calling me bald is exactly the same as making a racist comment. However early in life I learnt "sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me".


As I said, racism isn't about people being different (because everyone is), it's about how people treat you because of specific differences. It's also about much more than people being rude.

Lets look at this another way. Do you think handicapped people should just ignore prejudice because 'names will never hurt them'? Or are there perhaps implications that go beyond the name calling, and it's these implications that are the real issue?


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## Hilly10 (Feb 4, 2004)

Defo STAY. People who complain about him are just plain silly. Just get a life :wink:


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

Yep, let's also not lose sight of the fact that it wasn't broadcast either. Taking him at his word, he reviewed the material and thought better of it and broadcast something else. What's on YouTube is there, as I'm sure we all realise because someone else had an agenda.

When I edited the club magazine there was one article I remember, whose title seemed innocent enough to me and the author too I presume but our then experienced designer/sub editor picked it up saying it was in extremely poor taste - then the penny dropped and I realised the problem. We changed the title.

I'm not going to give any details to protect the author whom I don't think realised either - but imagine if someone with bad intent had got hold of that and published it!

In the creative process many bad ideas are thought of and tried out before rejection but it's the finished product you stand by and should be judged.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

For the sake of argument, let's pretend he actually said the 'n word'... I don't think I've ever heard of a situation in the workplace where saying something racist would be considered acceptable as long as it was never meant to be made public, so why would you expect the BBC to behave any differently? Is there a special rule for broadcasters where racism is fine as long as it doesn't go to air?


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

Spandex said:


> For the sake of argument, let's pretend he actually said the 'n word'... I don't think I've ever heard of a situation in the workplace where saying something racist would be considered acceptable as long as it was never meant to be made public, so why would you expect the BBC to behave any differently? Is there a special rule for broadcasters where racism is fine as long as it doesn't go to air?


1 rule for millionaire celebrities and 1 rule foe the rest of us?

Puulease :lol:


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

Spandex said:


> For the sake of argument, let's pretend he actually said the 'n word'... I don't think I've ever heard of a situation in the workplace where saying something racist would be considered acceptable as long as it was never meant to be made public, so why would you expect the BBC to behave any differently? Is there a special rule for broadcasters where racism is fine as long as it doesn't go to air?


You mean there might be 1 rule for millionaire celebrities and 1 rule for the rest of us?

Puulease :lol:


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

He said he didn't say it. If that wasn't the case and he was making racist remarks in the workplace then of course that would not be accepted - for the sake of argument. An accident with no bad intent is something else though and should not be taken in that light - as I tried to illustrate and taking him at his word so giving him the benefit of doubt. I don't know I wasn't there but I know how people can be, rich or poor, agenda or no agenda, good or bad. Context is everything again I think.


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## Bartsimpsonhead (Aug 14, 2011)

[smiley=stop.gif] 
Maybe people need to chill the flip out with some soothing tooones? 






[smiley=kid.gif] Haven't heard this in aaaages. [smiley=policeman.gif]


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

John-H said:


> He said he didn't say it. If that wasn't the case and he was making racist remarks in the workplace then of course that would not be accepted - for the sake of argument. An accident with no bad intent is something else though and should not be taken in that light - as I tried to illustrate and taking him at his word so giving him the benefit of doubt. I don't know I wasn't there but I know how people can be, rich or poor, agenda or no agenda, good or bad. Context is everything again I think.


I know what he's said about the incident. I was simply pointing out that the issue is "was what he said racist", not "was it intended for a wider audience".

The BBC have made the decision that what he said wasn't acceptable. Whether that's correct is up for debate, but if they think what he said wasn't acceptable then they have to treat it like any similar incident would be treated in the workplace. Whether it was broadcast or not is completely irrelevant.


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

Well yes they would because they have a legal obligation in such a case if they thought that. If they didn't and thought it was accidental then what? As you say, it's a debatable decision to make because it's unclear and perhaps that decision plays safe in the circumstances. I'm sure all concerned wish they hadn't strayed there now.


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## Azreal (Mar 7, 2013)

John-H said:


> Well yes they would because they have a legal obligation in such a case if they thought that. If they didn't and thought it was accidental then what? As you say, it's a debatable decision to make because it's unclear and perhaps that decision plays safe in the circumstances. I'm sure all concerned wish they hadn't strayed there now.


How does one say somehnng 'accidentally'?


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

John-H said:


> Well yes they would because they have a legal obligation in such a case if they thought that. If they didn't and thought it was accidental then what? As you say, it's a debatable decision to make because it's unclear and perhaps that decision plays safe in the circumstances. I'm sure all concerned wish they hadn't strayed there now.


We know what they'd do if it was a genuine accident because there are hundreds of incidents like that already. Remember the radio presenter who got tongue-tied saying Jeremy Hunts name live on air?

They did what they had to. He sailed too close to the wind by choosing to mumble the word in the way he did and in any case the whole 'joke' was pretty poorly judged. A very strong warning like that was the only outcome really, as he'd not quite given them enough rope to hang him.


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## igotone (Mar 10, 2010)

I love the way the Beeb cover their backs with this 'final warning' statement. The 'Bridge Over The River Kok" episode of Top Gear in which Clarkson referred to a slope being on the bridge, attracted a hue and cry of protest which I was convinced was uncalled for as I watched that episode - there _was _a slope (lean) on the bridge and I was sure that the fact that there was an indigenous person on the bridge also was pure coincidence.

Well, naive old me - it transpires that the pun was intended, the production crew were in on the setting up of the jolly jape, and presumably the whole thing got the nod of approval from the Beeb on that occasion so I don't buy into the Beeb's innocence in this - it seems to me they encourage Clarkson when it suits them and wash their hands of him when it doesn't, or more to the point, when people complain.


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## Bartsimpsonhead (Aug 14, 2011)

igotone said:


> I love the way the Beeb cover their backs with this 'final warning' statement. The 'Bridge Over The River Kok" episode of Top Gear in which Clarkson referred to a slope being on the bridge, attracted a hue and cry of protest which I was convinced was uncalled for as I watched that episode - there _was _a slope (lean) on the bridge and I was sure that the fact that there was an indigenous person on the bridge also was pure coincidence.


I like to think I'm fairly up on sexual inyerendo and racist remarks (being of a certain age and a long-time Viz reader) and I must admit I've never heard of term 'slope' used to refer to anyone of Asian appearance, so this whole other kerfuffle-over-nothing surprised me people were getting upset over it.


igotone said:


> Well, naive old me - it transpires that the pun was intended, the production crew were in on the setting up of the jolly jape, and presumably the whole thing got the nod of approval from the Beeb on that occasion so I don't buy into the Beeb's innocence in this - it seems to me they encourage Clarkson when it suits them and wash their hands of him when it doesn't, or more to the point, when people complain.


Have you spoken to anyone in the production/filming crew? How do you know that for sure?

At the end of the day, 'Top Gear' makes too much money for BBC Worldwide in syndication for them to can it.

And let's face it - we Brits love mild racism towards ze Germans and the French as it IS funny - racial stereotypes are funny and every country the world over has them and enjoy looking down on their neighbours (Aussies vs. Kiwis, Yanks vs. Cannucks or Mexicans, French vs. Belgium's, etc).


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

Spandex said:


> I think equating racism to an insult is missing the point slightly. Racism isn't the equivalent of calling someone fat or bald, other than on the most superficial level.
> 
> If fat people earned less money, or bald people were significantly more likely to get stopped by the Police then it might be a better analogy. Or maybe if, in the not too distant past, ginger people were forced to use different public amenities because they were considered sub-human, we could draw a comparison.
> 
> Racism isn't offensive because of the words used, it's offensive because of the implications.


Hell yeah!!!!! force the gingers to cover heads with bags and Never be allowed to wear a bikini!!! they look ill man hahaha

ok I is joking bwana, clarksons a cock yes but jees all these pages over it haha wd jezzer even got ttf in arms ya fat balding posh rich git. :roll:

( please note viewer discretion is advised on any of this persons posts) Bad boy gazz naughty step now!!!


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

Bartsimpsonhead said:


> I like to think I'm fairly up on sexual inyerendo and racist remarks (being of a certain age and a long-time Viz reader) and I must admit I've never heard of term 'slope' used to refer to anyone of Asian appearance, so this whole other kerfuffle-over-nothing surprised me people were getting upset over it.,


Only time I have heard it used was in pulp fiction, Christopher walkens character refers to his viatnamese captors as "slopes"


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## bigdodge (Apr 22, 2012)

Gazzer said:


> Spandex said:
> 
> 
> > ok I is joking bwana, clarksons a cock yes but jees all these pages over it haha wd jezzer even got ttf in arms ya fat balding posh rich git. :roll:
> ...


What language is this? :lol: :lol:


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

its moi taking proverbial pi55 language dodge, too many serious peeps in this thread haha


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

bigdodge said:


> Gazzer said:
> 
> 
> > Spandex said:
> ...


Gazish.


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## igotone (Mar 10, 2010)

Bartsimpsonhead said:


> I like to think I'm fairly up on sexual inyerendo and racist remarks (being of a certain age and a long-time Viz reader) and I must admit I've never heard of term 'slope' used to refer to anyone of Asian appearance, so this whole other kerfuffle-over-nothing surprised me people were getting upset over it.


Come on- it's a well known shortening of the term 'Slope head' first used I believe by US troops in Vietnam to describe the locals generally and the Viet Cong particularly.



> Have you spoken to anyone in the production/filming crew? How do you know that for sure?


It's not in dispute - this is an extract from an interview with the shows producer Andy Wilman..

_In a statement, Mr Wilman said: 'When we used the word "slope" in the recent Top Gear Burma special it was a light-hearted wordplay joke referencing both the build quality of the bridge and the local Asian man who was crossing it.

'We were not aware at the time, and it has subsequently been brought to our attention, that the word "slope" is considered by some to be offensive and although it might not be widely recognised in the UK, we appreciate that it can be considered offensive to some here and overseas, for example in Australia and the USA._

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/m ... -bbc-ofcom


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## zltm089 (Jul 27, 2009)




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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

Spandex said:


> John-H said:
> 
> 
> > Well yes they would because they have a legal obligation in such a case if they thought that. If they didn't and thought it was accidental then what? As you say, it's a debatable decision to make because it's unclear and perhaps that decision plays safe in the circumstances. I'm sure all concerned wish they hadn't strayed there now.
> ...


Ah yes, I nearly crashed the car when poor James Naughtie introduced, _"Jeremy Hunt the Culture secretary"_ (misquote), after which I think there was a directive to change the scripts of introduction to, _"The culture secretary Jeremy Hunt". _A listener blamed the prime minister for giving Mr Hunt the job as it's well known in psycho linguistic research that two words close together, which share a vowel, are prone to have the initial consonants exchanged.

It's interesting - if Jeremy Clarkson said the word in question deliberately it would be offensive clearly. Is mumbling the word so it's unclear what word was used offensive? If so then it must be the rhyme itself that gives context to what would otherwise just be a mumble. Is then using the rhyme and substituting the word for another innocent word still the same thing? The context of the rhyme is still there but the word is not offensive in this case. The latter has actually been tested in court after an airline attendant, wanting to get passengers to sit down announced, _"Eeny meeny miny mo, Please sit down it's time to go"_ and the airline was taken to court over the incident because some passengers took offence. The case was thrown out but clearly the rhyme's history holds dangers for the unwary. What is the rhymes history and context though? Apart from what some see as obvious it seems to be various.

The rhyme is a children's counting rhyme to choose "it" in a game dating back to at least 1815 on record and probably much further, with the word also variously being "devil", "tiger", "piggy", "tinker", "tigger", "chicken", "monkey", "baby", "spider", "teacher, etc. but the other words have changed too and many countries seem to have their own versions. One reference has the original derivation as early Scottish with the first line being a corruption of the Latin meaning "enemy of the soul". The reference to catching the "devil" by the toe was a test for Satan - the devil had a cloven hoof and would not feel the pinch so if he yelped he was a man and should be released.


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

There's no point debating the meaning and origins of the rhyme, because it's clear that he was reciting the version with the n word, otherwise there would have been no reason to mumble it. There's no innocent interpretation. He simply wanted to get a cheap laugh from almost saying a naughty word. It's about as basic as jokes get - build tension by starting the familiar rhyme, then as we're wondering, "will he say it?" we get the release when he substitutes some 'humourous' word (or mumble) in it's place.

He's become a parody of himself. He says these things because he has created this public persona which would fade into irrelevance if he stopped deliberately upsetting people. As Stewart Lee aptly put it, "Jeremy Clarkson and his outrageous politically incorrect opinions which he has every week to a deadline in the Sunday Times". It's all a well crafted facade, so I don't really pity him when he's on the receiving end of a load of equally manufactured opinions...

Incidentally, Lee's long pieces about Top Gear and its presenters are works of genius.


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

Well I think there is a point looking into the origins of the rhyme because it's far more interesting than talking about Jeremy Clarkson! Fascinating stuff about pinching coven hooves don't you think?

There is also interest in addressing whether use of the rhyme itself (with alternative word) should be considered insulting or not? What do you think about that without reference to Clarkson?

About Clarkson; I would only say that he has felt the pinch and has squeaked but I don't think some will let go :wink:


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## Spandex (Feb 20, 2009)

I find Clarkson and the irony of the situation he now finds himself in more interesting to be honest. I think Wikipedia have pretty much covered the history of that rhyme - I don't think the alternative versions of the rhyme are insulting as such, but I can understand people finding it uncomfortable given it's racist links. Some things never recover from their historical associations, no matter how innocent they are.


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## igotone (Mar 10, 2010)

Even Tarantino just about gets away with it by the 'n' word being whispered and scarcely audible.






In contrast, 'Django Unchained' was liberally sprinkled with heavy doses of the 'n' word, but as he was addressing the whole historic issue of slavery, it's use was valid.


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

igotone said:


> Even Tarantino just about gets away with it by the 'n' word being whispered and scarcely audible.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Im guessing ypu are being sarcastic with the tarantino :lol:

I thought it was going to be this clip.






Poor Marvin


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## igotone (Mar 10, 2010)

Actually, I forgot about that scene.


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## mighTy Tee (Jul 10, 2002)

So here we have the offending video.Listen carefully does he use the offending word? IMO not just a mumble which could be anything.


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## Shug750S (Feb 6, 2012)

Seems pretty clear to me what he said, defo the N word

Still think he should stay on TG, just looked at my company policy and if I'd said something similar I'd have got a formal warning though. So basically a warning and he carries on.


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

So the rhyme's Ok and it would be Ok if having listened carefully, it was just a mumble where the word would otherwise be? So only the discernable word is key? Making a joke by skating close to appearing to say it is Ok too? Only actually uttering the word is verboten which is why you need to listen very carefully? A tongue tired mumble error or audio artifact distorting the recording - would that then be excuse? It all seems to be dancing on the head of a pin.

I'm only pulling your leg - it's the reaction that this has had I think is interesting. Disregarding Clarkson, we all seem to have or own logic to define whether such a scenario is clearly one thing or the other when perhaps there are shades of grey to choose between too. I'm not saying it's clearly one thing or the other but all things considered it would probably have been best avoided.

Right or wrong, it only seems to be because it was Clarkson that there's such a fuss. That's not surprising perhaps.


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## bigdodge (Apr 22, 2012)

It's believed that the N word is reclaimed by black people and that its usage these days doesn't necessarily indicate racism. This is a hard take and I am not so sure about this. Whatever some people believe I think this word will continue to be used and cause a racial insult


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## Azreal (Mar 7, 2013)

bigdodge said:


> It's believed that the N word is reclaimed by black people and that its usage these days doesn't necessarily indicate racism. This is a hard take and I am not so sure about this. Whatever some people believe I think this word will continue to be used and cause a racial insult


There is a difference between n***a and n***er. Don't confuse the two. One is a racist slur. The other isn't.


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

Its all crazy.

I think clarkson would get less press attention if he had deliberatly reversed over a pensioner. :lol:

Suppose its mission acomplished for the BBC. just curious any coinciding BBC scandals/ pedos / rapeists etc... in the news at the same time?


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## Azreal (Mar 7, 2013)

brian1978 said:


> Its all crazy.
> 
> I think clarkson would get less press attention if he had deliberatly reversed over a pensioner. :lol:
> 
> Suppose its mission acomplished for the BBC. just curious any coinciding BBC scandals/ pedos / rapeists etc... in the news at the same time?


Surely this should be in the 'conspiracy theory' thread 8)


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## brian1978 (Jul 10, 2013)

Azreal said:


> brian1978 said:
> 
> 
> > Its all crazy.
> ...


We already know clarksons an alien


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## bigdodge (Apr 22, 2012)

Azreal said:


> bigdodge said:
> 
> 
> > It's believed that the N word is reclaimed by black people and that its usage these days doesn't necessarily indicate racism. This is a hard take and I am not so sure about this. Whatever some people believe I think this word will continue to be used and cause a racial insult
> ...


If there is a difference between the two words not sure if I would be able to tell the difference between them if they are spoken .


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## Azreal (Mar 7, 2013)

bigdodge said:


> Azreal said:
> 
> 
> > bigdodge said:
> ...


If there is a difference between the two words not sure if I would be able to tell the difference between them if they are spoken .[/

It's subtle but the most obvious way to tell them apart is.....one is said by white folks. The other by black folks.


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## bigdodge (Apr 22, 2012)

[/It's subtle but the most obvious way to tell them apart is.....one is said by white folks. The other by black folks.[/quote]

I get it now


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

Perhaps it depends if the sun has his hat on.


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## gadgesxi (Nov 21, 2010)

John-H said:


> Perhaps it depends if the sun has his hat on.


I never knew the original song had "the word" in it.


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## John-H (Jul 13, 2005)

gadgesxi said:


> John-H said:
> 
> 
> > Perhaps it depends if the sun has his hat on.
> ...


I was surprised too as I've heard it many times. I'm sure it used to feature on the radio for some regular programme.


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## Bartsimpsonhead (Aug 14, 2011)

Azreal said:


> It's subtle but the most obvious way to tell them apart is.....one is said by white folks. The other by black folks.


I thought it was down to the individual's ability to spell.


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## Azreal (Mar 7, 2013)

Bartsimpsonhead said:


> Azreal said:
> 
> 
> > It's subtle but the most obvious way to tell them apart is.....one is said by white folks. The other by black folks.
> ...


Nope. It's down to prenounciation. Both mean totally desperate things.


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## Bartsimpsonhead (Aug 14, 2011)

Azreal said:


> Bartsimpsonhead said:
> 
> 
> > Azreal said:
> ...


Well I doubt it's that "desperate"! Maybe they should use spiel chuckers to chuck their spielings more..?

I'm still with Lenny Bruce on the whole issue of taking words back and not installing them with the power to offend.


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## ag (Sep 12, 2002)

It amuses me that some words appear to have the ability to offend. To me the only offence lies in the intention. In this case Clarkson was trying out a joke and thought better of it, the joke wasn't aired because it wasn't suitable, or funny, or both. I don't believe that there was ever any intention to broadcast. No offence was meant, none should have been inferred.

If everything I did in private or that wasn't intended for public consumption got broadcast then I'd be locked up and the key thrown away. Luckily for me I am not in the entertainment business with people throwing me banana skins and hoping I slip up.

We are all offended by something, except straight, non-disabled, atheist, white, lower-middle class males between the ages of 35 and 60, because we're to busy pi**ing everbody else off. :roll:


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## Lollypop86 (Oct 26, 2013)

I probably offend people daily with my direct approach at work and "get sh*t done" attitude.....but I really dont care my department wouldnt be achieving 136% of target if I were all fluffy and cuddly

J
xx


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## Azreal (Mar 7, 2013)

I thought it was down to the individual's ability to spell.[/quote]

Nope. It's down to pr*e*nounciation. Both mean totally *desperate* things.[/quote]
Well I doubt it's that "desperate"! Maybe they should use spiel chuckers to chuck their spielings more..?

I'm still with Lenny Bruce on the whole issue of taking words back and not installing them with the power

My bad. 
Spilling mistook provided by iPhone.

Just today I meant to type "flippin heck" and the spell check changed it to "Filipino heck" I've now decided that is the version I will use.


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## Azreal (Mar 7, 2013)

ag said:


> It amuses me that some words appear to have the ability to offend. To me the only offence lies in the intention. In this case Clarkson was trying out a joke and thought better of it, the joke wasn't aired because it wasn't suitable, or funny, or both. I don't believe that there was ever any intention to broadcast. No offence was meant, none should have been inferred.
> 
> If everything I did in private or that wasn't intended for public consumption got broadcast then I'd be locked up and the key thrown away. Luckily for me I am not in the entertainment business with people throwing me banana skins and hoping I slip up.
> 
> We are all offended by something, except straight, non-disabled, atheist, white, lower-middle class males between the ages of 35 and 60, because we're to busy pi**ing everbody else off. :roll:


I'm sure we could find a thing or two today to you that would pi**you off. Not that I would as I'm not that way inclined.


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## Azreal (Mar 7, 2013)

Lollypop86 said:


> I probably offend people daily with my direct approach at work and "get sh*t done" attitude.....but I really dont care my department wouldnt be achieving 136% of target if I were all fluffy and cuddly
> 
> J
> xx


Being direct isn't the same as being a racist. I'm the same. I call it like I see it but I don't go around bandying racial slurs or slurs of any kind for that matter and I still gets s**t done.


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