# Toe and Heel



## stephengreen (May 6, 2002)

Is this a necessary skill to learn in anybody's opinion? I must confess that driving predominantly front wheel drive cars I've never bothered as a rule. And, having to think about it, slowed me enough to out-weigh any potential benefits. But since moving on to the M3 I'm trying to improve my driving technically. Once mastered will it bring any benefits either mechanically or to potential pace? Does it matter whether it's front or rear wheel drive to gain any benefits?
The M3 has truly astonishing ground covering speed, and has made me realise, that its abilities, far exceed my own. However, I'm determined to get as much from it as i can, and have booked a day at Silverstone on Tuesday 28th to learn more if possible.


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## HighTT (Feb 14, 2004)

RWD car on a track ..... Heal & Toe - - - Essential


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

My last two cars have both been quattro and both have benefitted from H &T. I don't use it all the time but it can be very useful.

It's more to do with getting the car balanced than whether it's FWD, AWD or RWD (although of course this can be more important on RWD).

Try it and see how you go. Just make sure there's no one behind you.


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## raven (May 7, 2002)

I've no idea how to do it but still drive reasonably fast (I think). I'd love to go on a track but just not with my own car....

You taking your M3 on the track or someone else's?


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## stephengreen (May 6, 2002)

raven said:


> I've no idea how to do it but still drive reasonably fast (I think). I'd love to go on a track but just not with my own car....
> 
> You taking your M3 on the track or someone else's?


Ive booked a a day with Anthony Dunn
http://www.iwannagofaster.com/
http://www.anthonydunn.co.uk/
Its using one of Silverstones Exige's and is for a full day. I'm really looking forward to it. It's been booked between three of us so should get some quality one on one tuition. Of course the question i have asked will be asked once there. But i was interested what the consensus of opinion on the forum as regards using the technique in every day driving. It's very difficult to change ones driving technique so I'm left wondering if there are any benefits to outweigh the the trouble perfecting it


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## jdn (Aug 26, 2002)

I beleive the returns are small unless you are very familiar with the technique and can use it naturally. Concentration and other roadcraft measures probably deliver more.

My understanding is that it is most useful on highly tuned track cars where the need to control the revs on downshifting while braking heavily is vital to ensure a smooth down change and not upset the balance of the car. Even more important in cars with significant downforce as 'pitching' of the car caused by rough downshifts can break downforce and cause acute instability = spin.

I think you would have to be pushing an M3 pretty damn hard to derive real benefit. However, it is satisfying if you get it right and allows for smooth downshifts under load.

Sensible to play on the track first - better than trying to explain to the person you just rear-ended - 'well, I was trying to heel and toe (or left foor brake for that matter) and...'


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## genocidalduck (May 19, 2005)

I have only ever tried it once when i had just past my driving test. Guy in the passenger seat was trying to explain it to me. I got it completely wrong and almost killed us. But after the event it was funny :roll:


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## stephengreen (May 6, 2002)

jdn said:


> I beleive the returns are small unless you are very familiar with the technique and can use it naturally. Concentration and other roadcraft measures probably deliver more.
> 
> I think you would have to be pushing an M3 pretty damn hard to derive real benefit. However, it is satisfying if you get it right and allows for smooth downshifts under load.


To use it naturally is one of my aims but it's very difficult to practise safely on public roads. The brake pedal on a M3 is set higher than the throttle so the technic can only be used when pushing hard or your not pressing the brake hard enough to roll your foot on to the throttle. And of course pushing hard and trying to learn dont really mix :?


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

The pedal configuration does make a huge difference. In the S4 I can't really roll my foot.

I can't brake normally and then decide to H & T. If I intend to I have to position my foot differently on the brake to start with.

The best way of finding out where to put your feet and to start to practise is parked on the side of the road. Then you hcan press the brake however hard you like. :wink:


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## b3ves (May 6, 2002)

JDN, I don't agree that the benefits are largely limited to highly tuned track cars. Heel and toeing makes for smoother downchanges as well as avoiding unsettling the car. Some paddle-shift cars blip on downchanges for the same reason.

There's a really good article on heel-and toeing (with pictures) at:

http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/howto/articles/45792/article.html

The benefits of heel-and toeing apply regardless of RWD, FWD or AWD. The technique where drivetrain configuration makes a difference is left foot braking, which is more beneficial with FWD and AWD, since it's designed to reign-in understeer. However, RWD cars are not immune to understeer (including front engined cars such as M3's but especially with mid-engined cars such as Elises) and it's worthwhile to learn. Another technique with related benefits (in this case, braking later but also sharpening high speed turn-in) is trail-braking, where moderated braking is continued towards the apex of the corner.

IMO it's great fun trying to master these techniques, but above all else make sure you have plenty of room to practice, away from other drivers and any immovable objects.

Have fun 

Rob


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

HighTT said:


> RWD car on a track ..... Heal & Toe - - - Essential


Agreed, H & T is hard to master and apply consistently, but does have its benefits. 'Matching the revs on down changes really helps keep the balance when braking hard, especially on a light RWD car.

Anyone who has locked the rear wheels of a Caterham on downchanging under hard braking into a slowish turn, and then subsequently spun when the lightly loaded rears lose their grip, will understand the importance of this.


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## QuackingPlums (Mar 10, 2004)

I learned H&T in my MG and had to do it all the time (mainly due to its twitchiness in less-than-perfect conditions) so it became something I just did naturally, however have never managed it in my TT. :?

I don't know if it's just the pedal spacing making it harder for me to roll my foot (I tended to roll my foot rather than actually using heel and toe) or something else, but often now I don't realise I'm doing it until I hear the gearbox/engine making funny noises! 

My first jouney in my MG involved driving down the A5 bypass around Tamworth in the pouring rain - a full 720 degree spin on the Bitterscote turn-off caused by a sloppy gear change made me realise the importance of not upsetting the car around corners!


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## b3ves (May 6, 2002)

QuackingPlums said:


> I learned H&T in my MG and had to do it all the time (mainly due to its twitchiness in less-than-perfect conditions) so it became something I just did naturally, however have never managed it in my TT. :?
> 
> I don't know if it's just the pedal spacing making it harder for me to roll my foot (I tended to roll my foot rather than actually using heel and toe) or something else, but often now I don't realise I'm doing it until I hear the gearbox/engine making funny noises!


IIRC it's not possible in the TT, because braking cuts off the function of the throttle


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

It is possible. You're thinking of left foot braking. :wink:



garyc said:


> Anyone who has locked the rear wheels of a Caterham on downchanging under hard braking into a slowish turn, and then subsequently spun when the lightly loaded rears lose their grip, will understand the importance of this.


Nah! I've never done that ...... apart from at Donington's Melborne Hairpin of course :lol:


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## jdn (Aug 26, 2002)

b3ves said:


> IIRC it's not possible in the TT, because braking cuts off the function of the throttle


I recall this being mentioned before - if that is true then neither left foot braking or heel and toe would be possible.


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## NaughTTy (Jul 9, 2003)

QuackingPlums said:


> ........, however have never managed it in my TT. :?
> 
> I don't know if it's just the pedal spacing making it harder for me to roll my foot (I tended to roll my foot rather than actually using heel and toe) or something else .......


I think Riso designed a wider accelerator pedal specifically for this reason. I'm sure it's been posted on here before and the same queries were raised about engine cut out, etc. :?


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## b3ves (May 6, 2002)

scoTTy said:


> It is possible. You're thinking of left foot braking. :wink:


No I'm not - what makes you think that the throttle will work when you brake with your right foot and yet not with your left?! :?

These Audis must be smarter than I've hitherto given them credit for


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

scoTTy said:
 

> It is possible. You're thinking of left foot braking. :wink:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


..and Quarry Corner at CC. :lol:


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## Carlos (May 6, 2002)

There is a sensor in the floor mat that detects whether the braking is being applied by the left or right foot.

Vlastan told me.


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## b3ves (May 6, 2002)

Carlos said:


> There is a sensor in the floor mat that detects whether the braking is being applied by the left or right foot.
> 
> Vlastan told me.


LOL, I stand corrected :wink:


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

I know it works coz I did it on the TT and the S4. It's simply a case of the ECU knowing if the clutch is up or down.

Clutch Up (i.e. drive engaged) and you press the brake and it kills power.

Clutch Down (i.e. when changing down) and you can press the brake AND you can blip the throttle.

i.e. left foot braking doesn't work and heal and toe does. 8)


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## b3ves (May 6, 2002)

scoTTy said:


> I know it works coz I did it on the TT and the S4. It's simply a case of the ECU knowing if the clutch is up or down.
> 
> Clutch Up (i.e. drive engaged) and you press the brake and it kills power.
> 
> ...


Fair enough - thanks for clarifying


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## stephengreen (May 6, 2002)

Well, having never been on a track before, i went on the tuition course at silverstone, driving an Exige...WOW! If anyone is thinking they would like to do the same, i cant recommend it highly enough. I (like most blokes) thought i could pedal on a bit ,so, when i did my first lap, i thought that was pretty much the limit. But, with some excellent tuition, i ended up 30 sec a lap faster by the end of the day! quite amazing. I now realise what an addictive thing lapping a track becomes. It also made me realise that you can only drive your road car to the limit of the road not the vehical. Driving on a track was such a revelation, i enjoyed it immensely. It has definitely wet my appetite to get a track day car. As for Heel and Toe, it was demonstrated for me, and i tried it on occasion, but to be honest was a bit to much to take on board on my learning curve.


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## b3ves (May 6, 2002)

stephengreen said:


> Well, having never been on a track before, i went on the tuition course at silverstone, driving an Exige...WOW! If anyone is thinking they would like to do the same, i cant recommend it highly enough. I (like most blokes) thought i could pedal on a bit ,so, when i did my first lap, i thought that was pretty much the limit. But, with some excellent tuition, i ended up 30 sec a lap faster by the end of the day! quite amazing. I now realise what an addictive thing lapping a track becomes. It also made me realise that you can only drive your road car to the limit of the road not the vehical. Driving on a track was such a revelation, i enjoyed it immensely. It has definitely wet my appetite to get a track day car. As for Heel and Toe, it was demonstrated for me, and i tried it on occasion, but to be honest was a bit to much to take on board on my learning curve.


Glad you enjoyed it - be careful, it's an addictive drug :twisted:

Exige is great fun on track, highly recommended...


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## stephengreen (May 6, 2002)

Exige is great fun on track, highly recommended...









The grip and lack of understeer from the Exige was amazing. I'd be very interested to hear your comparison of it compared to your CSL on the track. I'd imagine that the BMW would have more grunt but the Lotus would be more nimble....so which is quicker?


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## b3ves (May 6, 2002)

stephengreen said:


> Exige is great fun on track, highly recommended...
> 
> The grip and lack of understeer from the Exige was amazing. I'd be very interested to hear your comparison of it compared to your CSL on the track. I'd imagine that the BMW would have more grunt but the Lotus would be more nimble....so which is quicker?


You are right and it all depends on the track as to which is quickest. On tight twisty circuits the Exige comes into its own, but on the biggies like Silverstone, Donnington, Brands, Spa and the Nurburgring, you wouldn't see the CSL for dust.

Taking the Nordschleife as an example as it's one I'm particularly fond of, Sport Auto* clocked 07min50 (average speed 157.787 km/h) in a CSL and 08min32 (ave. 144.844 km/h) in an S2 Exige. An average of 8mph faster is pretty impressive...

*See http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?viewThread=y&gID=3&fID=0&tID=10073&bottom=0


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