# TTOC Crisis and Resignation



## TT Law

It is with regret that I will be standing down as Events Secretary this year.

I have been involved with the club for nearly 10 years now and have had some great times and met some fantastic people along the way.

I have been on the committee of the club for the majority of this time even though I haven't had a TT for long periods. It has always been the social side of the club that has been the biggest draw for me and also the biggest motivator in terms of the time I give to the club.

The reason I will be stepping down is that it has now got to the stage that the committee of the club are dysfunctional and without major change cannot continue in the current circumstances.

Tensions have been running high for some time with a real split emerging between the committee members who value the relationship with the TTF and those who want the TTOC to move away from the TTF altogether.

The last committee Skype meeting was very fraught with a vote taken to remove John as Editor which I'm afraid the committee do not have the authority to do as John was voted into post by members.

Other votes took place around removal of the club benefit of seeing the Marketplace on the forum with a low post count which was carried. A vote was taken to remove all Committee from moderation duties on the TTF which was also carried.

My issue with all this is that this is a fundamental change to the club and its relationship with the forum. Most of the events that the club run are made up of people who post on the forum and are active TTF users. This move could damage the ability of the club to attract new members and also to arrange events with enough people to make them special.

The club should have its own website and forum for topics that are appropriate and are club business but I can see no justification for separating from the TTF at all. Indeed previous attempts at setting up TT forums have failed and I see no reason why this wouldn't either.

To summarise I think that the decisions and direction that the club is taking are of such significance that only a debate and vote by the membership will do the subject justice and this is being resisted on the basis that the committee was voted in to undertake club business. This is not day to day business for me and as I have said should be a membership decision.

The issues above are the reasons I am resigning at a this point. I simply cannot continue with the committee split right down the middle and arguing over this major issue. Indeed tonight John Handford has been ejected from the club for allegedly bringing the club into disrepute which again is against the constitution of the club as not all committee members have been consulted, me included. It has also in consequence paralysed the day to day running of the club apart from Andrew doing his sterling job with the memberships.

I will more than likely be shot down for exposing this in this way but I think it is of such importance that keeping it behind closed doors for any longer is damaging. I am passionate about this club and what it has achieved and will still be around at some of the events. The behaviour of certain members of the committee has been nothing short of bullying of late and in my 10 years I have not experienced this before.

The members have been deliberately mislead and ignored in some sort of effort to make major change to the club and this is unacceptable.

I wish you all well but I am afraid this is the beginning of the end and John and myself are the first of the casualties. John in particular has put an enormous amount of effort into producing a top class magazine and has made a major contribution in the most professional way to the forum and the thanks he gets is to be ceremoniously ejected from the club.

Regards

Steve


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## Nem

Steve by your own admission you have not yet seen the editorial statement printed by John in issue 33 of the club magazine.

You state we are moving away from this forum when in fact this is simply your understanding of the situation. I have been in touch with two of this forum's owners this afternoon, one via email and another via phone to Ontario, discussing how things are going and how the club and forum can further help each other.

The two actions in question, the removal of the TTOC fast track market place access, and also a specific forum admin team, separate to the club committee, were both welcomed as good ideas to allow both the club committee and forum team to concentrate on what each does best.

As for anything un-constitutional, I consulted with the required number of committee members in making a decision as to whether to allow a club member the right to renew a membership, outlined in section J2 of the TTOC rules and constitution.


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## TT Law

Nick,

You are very mistaken in your belief that you can just select 4 committee members to vote as you see fit. This is an abuse of power.

The 4 in the constitution is to establish a quarate for a general committee meeting. This does not give you the right to not invite the whole committee.

Sorry but this is fact.

Steve


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## A3DFU

Thank you very much for posting this statement Steve! It takes a lot of "guts" to do this and I can only underline ALL of the issues you've raised and I fully agree with you!

Being on TTF since december 2000, a TTOC Rep since nine years and on the TTOC committee since a considerable time, part of it as Vice Chairman, I have seen the communication between the committee members deteriorate to the point where there was/is no communication at all, which renders the current committee disfunctional. 
This puts EvenTT13 into jeopardy as John and I have been told we must not contact traders!!!! However, the relevant committee secretary does not want to do it by his ow admission. This also leaves the club short of revenue for the above reasons.

John had been instrumental in keeping TTOC and TTF working together despite of some committee members wanting to go their own way (and this goes back almost two years now). Having whitnessed the way he's been attacked, specifically over the past seven months, has brought me to the brink of resigning all of my offices (all four of them).

I do hope the situation can be salvaged but I doubt it can. If so, it needs to be put to the mebership via an EGM


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## Mark Davies

I can only guess what is going on (I've not seen absoluTTe yet) but I can imagine what may have been said and can appreciate the reaction, however I think Steve is clearly right - you can't just pick and choose like-minded people from the committee so that you can pass whatever motion you like. It is deeply undemocratic and frankly it is at the heart of all that is wrong in the Club of late.

There is precious little democracy in the TTOC. Virtually nobody votes for the committee members, who stand for positions and are rubber stamped by a mere handful of people who are able to attend the AGM in person. Minimal effort is put into enabling the rest of the membership to vote, the result being only one person cast an online vote at the last AGM. You may argue that it simply displays a lack of interest, but frankly it has more to do with the membership being given nothing of substance to vote for and woefully inadequate processes being put in place.

So ultimately we have a committee of practically self-appointed individuals exercising executive power with no mandate whatsoever, imposing their individual will on the membership; a group of 10 people out of 840 running the Club as if they were the entire membership.

It's not good enough and it's that lack of democratic process that has led to the situation we have now - and symptomatic of that is the very way you have gone about this business today. I'm on the committee, you have my phone number, I've been available all day yet no attempt at all has been made to contact me to ascertain my view on the matter. It seems quite clear you have been in touch with only the people you were sure would agree with you to get the vote you wanted.

That is entirely unacceptable. In fact, it's a disgrace.


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## Nem

It is an inevitable end to now 13 months of discussion and arguments which members of the club committee can no longer stand.

We have to move on to be able to run this club as it should be for it's members.

Try running the TTOC by yourself Steve along with Dani and John if you like as that is the alternate ending when everyone else who can play well together resigns on mass.

I somehow think that the members would prefer to have the chairman, membership secretary, club secretary, treasurer, marketing secretary, merchandise secretary, and web admin posts all filled by active and enthusiastic people.


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## Mark Davies

Nem said:


> I somehow think that the members would prefer to have the chairman, membership secretary, club secretary, treasurer, marketing secretary, merchandise secretary, and web admin posts all filled by active and enthusiastic people.


But I'm not sure they'd want them running the club completely unfettered by due process as if they owned it.


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## A3DFU

Perhaps we should ask all 850 odd members for their opinion?


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## Nem

If the TTOC were a multi billion pound business then I can understand how a situation like this would now be involving lawyers and courts and millions of pounds would be being invested to find out who said what and if they were allowed to do what they did etc etc.

But this is not rhe case.

The TTOC is a voluntary organisation run by enthusiastic people for their enjoyment in their spare time.

But, for the record, the last year has not been fun, or enjoyable for that matter, the cumulation of which is me being sat here at 2am still trying to defend myself from what has been an evening of personal abuse and accusation by a number of people against me, for trying to finally resolve an issue which has been causing problems for a long time. I have stuck by the TTOC and weathered the storm because I am one of the enthusiastic people, but there is a time when enough is enough.

The club constitution does not state that all committee members have to be contacted to arrange a meeting, or that all members have to be present, or that all members have to be available to make a decision. To be fair the constitution doesn't really state much relating to a 12 month old problem where one committee member is so against everything the majority of the committee is happy with and ends up making their life's a misery because of it.

If we were sticking to the constitution word for word then Steve, you wouldn't even have a committee post, as it does state that a committee member who is absent from three consecutive meetings is deemed to have resigned, yet we have overlooked that because it really doesn't matter and we were happy to have someone such as yourself on board. Yet we are now being forced to answer to the letter of the law.

If I had rung around all the committee tonight what would be end result be? Another 3 hour long Skype argument, with no resolution at the end, but someone suggesting we leave it there for tonight as it's getting nasty. That was you last time Steve I believe after telling me you simply could not believe John's attitude towards Sara during the evening.

Even you Mark, said that you had seen a totally different side to John from only a few weeks in the committee post and yet you post here defending him it seems. You certainly know that this is needed and understand how desperate the situation was.

If we really think that asking the entire membership their view is necessary then it shall be arranged, I've nothing to hide. But in the process we will loose people, enthusiastic people who like me have stood by and taken the arguments and believed in the strength and spirit of the members of this club and carried on working for their benefit.


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## Mark Davies

Nick, I'm not defending John - just as I wasn't defending him when there was an attempt to throw him off the committee without any authority to do so. John probably was out of order doing what he's done and will pay a price for that. It's not what you've done that I object to - it's very much the manner in which you have done it. If I'm defending anyone, it's the membership of this club.

Since being invited to join the committe a few months ago it has become apparent to me that few if any of the committee members appreciate that they hold their positions simply by volunteering. We have no mandated authority at all given that we have been rubber-stamped into post by a handful of people who just happened to be at the AGM and make up less than 5% of the membership. People who understood that position properly would realise that severely limits their authority. We cannot claim in any shape or form to be acting to the wishes of the membership. In reality it is nothing but a handful of individual members imposing their will on the rest of the club.

We might genuinely believe we are acting in the best interests of the club, but who says our opinions on that are right? Not even 5% of the membership have expressed agreement that we're the right people for the job! We cannot in any shape or form claim that our actions are sanctioned by the membership. They're just not!

Now that realisation in itself should instil a sense of humility in the committee and encourage us to fetter our actions considerably. Instead we had a committee that believed it could do anything it wanted as long as they had a majority vote amongst themselves. Now it seems we have a committee that thinks it can do anything it wants as long as a few of them gather together in secret, excluding even some of their number!

For pity's sake Nick, if you can't see how badly out of order that is then we're in serious trouble! It begs the question, what won't you do?

It doesn't matter that it's not a huge company and just a small club. It's a club that belongs to all of its 840 members - not just you. You do not have the right to do whatever you want and if you can't appreciate that - if any of the committee members fail to appreciate that - then we shouldn't be in the positions we are in.

I appreciate this was a matter that needed to be resolved quickly. But regardless of the urgency no authority has been given to you to unilaterally dictate your will. None. It was your duty to at the very least call a full meeting of the whole committee - to at least attempt to contact everyone so that the matter could be discussed properly. Instead it seems you have chosen to only contact those you thought would agree with you. That is a fundamental breach of trust.


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## jamman

Well said


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## BrianR

I don't know any of the people involved in this. What I do get a sense of though is the passion and good intentions relating to the roles that you all carry out. To be sat around in the middle of the night emailing and defending says a lot about all of you and the passion you have for the place.

As a basic member who just likes coming here, I am wonderring how it has come to this? How people who give their time freely and willingly find themselves in a position of being upset, judged and judging. This is a car forum, it isn't watergate, the vast majority of members don't care about the politics, they simply want somewhere to go to discuss their favourite subject and to meet new people; I don't want the very people who make that possible for us, to have a difficult time achieving that. It all sounds like it has become over complicated and complex with layers of process to be manouvred in order that anything get done. I am left wonderring why it should be that way. I wish you all luck and peace and as one of the broader membership would like to thank you for you efforts and passion.


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## mighTy Tee

It is so sad to see dirty washing being aired on this public forum where everyone (TTOC and non-TTOC) can have their 2p worth. Whatever the rights and wrong of the situation surely this should be discussed on the TTOC members only forum and not the TTF?


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## BrianR

mighTy Tee said:


> It is so sad to see dirty washing being aired on this public forum where everyone (TTOC and non-TTOC) can have their 2p worth. Whatever the rights and wrong of the situation surely this should be discussed on the TTOC members only forum and not the TTF?


Yes, sad for thise who give so much of themselves and then find themselves on the end of a verbal beating.


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## TT Law

Nem said:


> It is an inevitable end to now 13 months of discussion and arguments which members of the club committee can no longer stand.
> 
> We have to move on to be able to run this club as it should be for it's members.
> 
> Try running the TTOC by yourself Steve along with Dani and John if you like as that is the alternate ending when everyone else who can play well together resigns on mass.
> 
> I somehow think that the members would prefer to have the chairman, membership secretary, club secretary, treasurer, marketing secretary, merchandise secretary, and web admin posts all filled by active and enthusiastic people.


Nick,

You have personalised this which is unfortunate.

You seem to believe that underlying all this is a desire for me or others to take over the club. I am certainly not interested in this.

Again you repeat the threat of mass resignations which is unhelpful.

Don't forget all this stems back to you stating that John must go due to Andrew no longer being willing to work with him. This following the debacle of the change of owner of TTF and its announcement. You said this yourself to me at AITP and said that Andrew was more important to the club.

You question my enthusiasm in your post. You know full well that I have very limited time to give the club but i have continued on the basis that we have other vacancies on the committee and another wouldnt help. I was Cristal Clear with this point.

You also mention in another post about missing meetings. I dont recall missing 3 Skypes in a row but i dont see the relevance here. Are you saying my vote doesnt count even though I have been voted onto this committee?

The fundamental point here is how people are acting and not the editorial which I still havent seen.

Richard MighTTy T - I am sorry to post on here but these issues can be kept private no longer. The TTOC website has relatively few members so this is the logical place to post as it also affects John in his mod status.

I thought hard before posting but it needs discussion with members and others.

I agree with others that this is all rather sad but if left unchecked what is next? John has been sacked, Les left his post, Abe has stated he is not doing anything with Marketing until this is all sorted.

I tried very hard for us all to work together but views were so entrenched on both sides this has been impossible which is why the members of this club must have their say in a simple referendum on the future strategy of the club.

Steve

I have just read the editorial and although I think the last paragraph should not have been in the remainder seems to ba statement of fact. I cant see how it brings the club into disripute and I certainly dont think it is a reason to eject someone from the club. This said if the committee had been consulted and the clause to eject was discussed and a majority achieved then that would be following process.


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## phope

Unfortunately, John's editorial reads as " I did this, I did that, I was instrumental..." - it does rather come across as a self-centred rant


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## rustyintegrale

Far be it from me to criticise but this has been coming for years. It's not just this committee it is past committees too.

For a long time there was a battle between the TTOC and TTF. Then we had the 'coming together' of the TTOC and the TTF along with a big fanfare and an announcement at the national event. Most of us never really believed it anyhow and then when Jae sold the forum to a commercial enterprise the TTOC started their own 'members' area' (read forum).

Now imagine for one moment the mixed messages that little lot conveyed?

Mark is right in his view that the majority of the membership of the TTOC have little or no say in who runs the club and what they do. The voting process is antiquated given the technology available today and it should not be necessary to have to devote a whole weekend to attend an AGM just to have one's voice heard. Any member who pays his fees should have the right to vote - even if it's just a postal vote. It would be preferable for it to be electronic exactly as they are on here when someone runs a poll. I accept the need for more security but I'm sure it can be done.

Now you might ask why I, as a non-member, feel I have the right to make comment anyhow. Well I have first-hand experience of how the committee operates - or did operate and this sums it up nicely...

John Cleese is the Committee, Ronnie Barker the TTOC membership and Ronnie Corbett the TTF.






What happened overnight is TTOC business and should not be aired here. But whatever happens it is an opportunity to make change for the better.

To build a better club takes memberships and attracting new members - certainly now, will take a grass-roots review of how things are done and decisions are made at committee level.


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## KammyTT

jamman said:


> Well said


Great input haha


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## jamman

KammyTT said:


> jamman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well said
> 
> 
> 
> Great input haha
Click to expand...

Kammy I did go off on one a bit BUT I thought Jesus this just isn't worth it
so edited it.


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## A3DFU

Nem said:


> If I had rung around all the committee tonight what would be end result be? Another 3 hour long Skype argument


So rather than discussing things with all committee members you chose just to contact the ones who you knew would support your idea. This is not the way the committee should work.



Nem said:


> If we were sticking to the constitution word for word then Steve, you wouldn't even have a committee post, as it does state that a committee member who is absent from three consecutive meetings is deemed to have resigned, yet we have overlooked that because it really doesn't matter and we were happy to have someone such as yourself on board.


I can't recall Steve being absent from three consecutive meetings.

However on this subject, did you not draft two committee members in specifically to get the market place fast track access removed as a members benefit; two committee members who have most certainly been absent from three consecutive meetings? That's double standards, Nick.



mighTy Tee said:


> It is so sad to see dirty washing being aired on this public forum where everyone (TTOC and non-TTOC) can have their 2p worth. Whatever the rights and wrong of the situation surely this should be discussed on the TTOC members only forum and not the TTF?


It is sad Richard, but with this committee being dysfunctional since many months it is important that more TTOC members can get involved in the discussion, not just committee members as they are just ordinary club members like everyone else.


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## Nem

Who are you referring to Dani, two committee members?

But yet again you are totally blind of my point, the fact is that if someone has been absent for 3 meetings it doesn't matter, we don't hold the constitution up every day and pick fault with people, it's simply times like this when the every dotted I and crossed T is brought up.

Didn't you and John personally engineer bringing Mark onto the committee to stand in your corner? Yes, even Mark knows that himself so give it a rest will you.

John knows full well he was on thin ice and yet knowingly, willingly and purposefully he has printed is own version or events and blatant lies in the club magazine.

*Why am I now being persecuted for taking the appropriate action to save this committee while everyone is now overlooking the real issue here which is John and his action and blatant disregard for the good of this club.*


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## KammyTT

Can anyone put up a pic of the said article please


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## Mark Davies

Nem said:


> *Why am I now being persecuted for taking the appropriate action to save this committee while everyone is now overlooking the real issue here which is John and his action and blatant disregard for the good of this club.*


Because you're failing to recognise that the ends don't necesarilly justify the means. Are John's actions a danger to the club? I don't know because I've still not seen what he's done. So whose opinion is it that you've taken 'the appropriate action'? Yours - just yours. And in an act of dictatorship you have imposed your personal opinion and wishes on the committee and the whole club.

Sometimes there can be an argument that a crisis demands decisive leadership and action simply has to be taken. This was not one of those times. This didn't have to be dealt with yesterday. The magazine is out there, the damage (if any) has already been done. Sacking John isn't going to recall all those magazines. There was no reason this issue could not have been dealt with properly and time taken to do it, but instead it appears you've siezed on an opportunity to force through something you've been wanting to do for months - and behaved in a rather underhand manner to achieve it.

I think the members should be able to expect more from those in whom they place their trust to be stewards of their club.

Rich is echoing what I've been saying to you ever since I first joined the committee and saw the woeful state it was in. We need to get the democratic processes of the club sorted out properly and we need to define the duties of the committee and the limitations of what they can and can't do. Instead we've had people trying to force through personal agendas born of petty squabbles and then, when they didn't get their own way they've gone off and sulked for months and refused to participate in the business of the club.

It's a shame that this is done in public, but as long as it remians behind closed doors people get away with failing in their duty to the club and behaving in a manner that they wouldn't want the wider membership to know about. It's been brought to a head by John's and Steve's actions - an outcome that has frankly been inevitable for months - so now is the time to get a grip of it and sort it out.

It's true, the membership don't want these squabbles - they just want their club to be run quietly and competently on their behalf. They're not interested in the personalities and egoes, because they shouldn't have anything to do with it. What's needed is to get the structures right from the outset, take the egoes out of the equation and then we will avoid these issues in the future.


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## KammyTT

It's not as If everyone involved is running a bank?


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## AfterHouR

> Mark is right in his view that the majority of the membership of the TTOC have little or no say in who runs the club and what they do. The voting process is antiquated given the technology available today and it should not be necessary to have to devote a whole weekend to attend an AGM just to have one's voice heard. Any member who pays his fees should have the right to vote - even if it's just a postal vote. It would be preferable for it to be electronic exactly as they are on here when someone runs a poll. I accept the need for more security but I'm sure it can be done.


I agree with this, as a paying member. I want to be consulted in decisions that effect my membership and this should not be decided by some kangaroo court. I would love to go to AGM's and other event's but with pressures of work it is extremely difficult but an online poll/vote, would be a fairer democratic way, to see what the paying members wanted, as long as we have been given the full facts in the first place.

People don't always get on, personalities do clash, people do get frustrated and that is why one member one vote should decide, otherwise people will be voting with their feet and not renewing memberships and then we won't have a TTOC at all.


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## jamman

Nick can you really not see how badly you are coming out of this?

If you can't I hold little hope for the club being run in a democratic way.

I've read Johns short editorial this morning and can see he is clearly hacked off and he puts his point across strongly I don't see anything wrong with that.

It does seem that everyone is allowed an opinion (and a vote) just as long as it suits your aims.

Very poor show I just hope you are not too arrogant to realise maybe things could have been handled A LOT BETTER.

I say arrogant because some of your posts smack of it.

Have a good weekend all.


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## phope

A part of why other committee members are annoyed with John's editorial is the underhand way in which it was published.

For the last few weeks, the committee members have been able to view the proofs and in-course work for the magazine, and even at the beginning of last week, John's editorial had not been able to be viewed - nothing wrong with that, as the magazine often comes together at the very last minute.

It then became apparent around Tuesday/Wednesday last week that John had written an editorial that although other committee members may have disagreed with the content, (it was similar to what you read, and invited members for comment) it was too late to recall the issue from the printers, and in reality, what good would that have served?...the costs of printing are high enough as it is, and John's actions would have cost another £1500 from member funds to have reprinted

Finally, last night, it then became apparent that John had rewritten the editorial to the text that people will be reading in their magazines that will be dropping through doorboxes in the next few days (if you haven't seen the issue already)

Whilst people have arguments and disagreements over how best to serve members interests, I for one, feel very disappointed that John felt the need to make a very public grandstanding gesture in the manner he did.


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## jamman

My mistake I always thought the editors section was just that one person namely the editors thoughts and opinion.

I wasnt aware it had to be passed by the committee first.

I hope and pray that the next editor tows the party line I'm sure the "Gang of Four" have someone in mind :wink:


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## paulc1

jamman said:


> My mistake I always thought the editors section was just that one person namely the editors thoughts and opinion.
> 
> I wasnt aware it had to be passed by the committee first.
> 
> I hope and pray that the next editor tows the party line I'm sure the "Gang of Four" have someone in mind :wink:


Your mistake is thinking that an editor can just write what he wants and running down people in public and embarrassing the club in public, with that level of authority comes responsibility and that was shown to be lacking in what was written , this all didn't need to be seen in by everyone and now look at the damage done , which some people may have known before but now everyone knows


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## Gazzer

My personal view is nick should stand down for now and Dani take over and call an EGM to decide how the process of contacting all members to have a vote on who out of the candidates will be voted in.

Underhand is getting ready to open a TTOC for sale section without consulting the membership, to break away from the TTF will kill us as a club as stated before.
Being a committee member is a thankless task especially when it is unpaid!!! So to allow toys thrown out of the pram to dictate business is just very poor in my opinion. Has none of us worked with someone in life we did'nt like? And that is eight hours a day but we do it as it is money. Grow up and put egoes back on the shelf and run a bloody club.


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## jamman

Quite agree Paul mistakes have been made on both sides.

This has been brewing for a long time you can see this by the amount of bickering that has been going on between committee members on various threads some of it extremely childish.

I will be eternally grateful for the magazines (you know who you are) but after all this crap I think i will find little else to interest me.


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## burns

Gazzer said:


> Underhand is getting ready to open a TTOC for sale section without consulting the membership, to break away from the TTF will kill us as a club as stated before.


There is no breaking away from TTF by the TTOC. The two entities are, and will continue to be, connected. The only people claiming that there is some kind of split are the conspiracy theorists who, frankly, should focus on facts rather than fiction.


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## jamman

Burns has arrived it will only go one way now.... :roll:

I hope this mess all gets sorted peacefully and that's me out of here. :wink:


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## paulc1

jamman said:


> Burns has arrived it will only go one way now.... :roll:
> 
> I hope this mess all gets sorted peacefully and that's me out of here. :wink:


I try not to mess with Countess Burney , very scary lady pmsl


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## A3DFU

burns said:


> Gazzer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Underhand is getting ready to open a TTOC for sale section without consulting the membership, to break away from the TTF will kill us as a club as stated before.
> 
> 
> 
> There is no breaking away from TTF by the TTOC. The two entities are, and will continue to be, connected. The only people claiming that there is some kind of split are the conspiracy theorists who, frankly, should focus on facts rather than fiction.
Click to expand...

If there was/is no intention to move away from TTF, where exactly does this staement come from?



> "I've had it. I'm moving to suggest we totally withdraw from the TTF. We are causing the club infinite damage by being associated with the TTF.


I'll tell you: Nick posted it on 18th May 2011. You can read the relevant thread for yourself


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## Nem

Oh goody.

Last night was personal attacks and now we've moved onto quoting private committee information wildly out of context.

Really?


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## brittan

I've started to write a post on this a number of times today but have been beaten to many of the comments by Mark Davies who has probably put the points more eloquently than I. It's good to see some good ol' common sense views.

If committee approval of the Editor's column in absoluTTe is the norm then John has done himself no favours by adopting this tactic. Equally, by reacting first and thinking (properly) later, Nick hasn't come out of this smelling of roses either.

Nick, in another thread you say:


Nem said:


> That is John's personal view, not the vision of the TTOC committee.


What is this 'vision' please? I don't know; I don't recall ever seeing any information on this and I suspect that there's a lot of other members similarly lacking this information.

Given how long this has apparently been under discussion by the committee and the seemingly entrenched positions adopted by each 'side' within it, this vision must be a fundamental change for the TTOC. 
In that case I believe that the correct route would have been for this to be put to the membership via a simple to organise on-line or postal vote.
It's not too late to do that and then the committee would be clear in what they must do for the benefit of us members.

A couple of other things:
1. The TTOC forum needs an extra section - one where the minutes of the committee meetings are published, say within a week of the meeting. That would keep us members informed and perhaps rein in some of the more animated discussions that have been indicated.

2. Each person seeking election to the committee would present their ideas, aspiration and 'vision' to the membership; a manifesto if you will, but at least something on which us members can make the judgement on how to vote. This assumes that Mark's comments on sorting out the member voting system is completed, as it must be.


----------



## rustyintegrale

phope said:


> For the last few weeks, the committee members have been able to view the proofs and in-course work for the magazine, and even at the beginning of last week, John's editorial had not been able to be viewed - nothing wrong with that, as the magazine often comes together at the very last minute.


Why should the committee members be viewing proofs anyway? Surely copy and content checking will have taken place using electronic PDFs before it even went to print? If you're paying for wet proofs then you're paying over the odds for the print and since when does anyone on the committee know what to look for in a printer's proof?

This is exactly the kind of meddling I used to encounter when I was involved with the TTOC. It's unnecessary, time-consuming and wasteful of resources. If you know nothing about a particular aspect of running the club why on earth should you feel the need to pass judgement on the work produced by someone that does?


----------



## Nem

We're talking about PDF proofs which are usually circulated around the committee before going to print. The committee produces a magazine, not simply the editor. In this case the final pdf of the editorial which was placed for committee viewing was then altered and sent to print.


----------



## rustyintegrale

brittan said:


> A couple of other things:
> 1. The TTOC forum needs an extra section - one where the minutes of the committee meetings are published, say within a week of the meeting. That would keep us members informed and perhaps rein in some of the more animated discussions that have been indicated.


In my view that is just more administration and wasteful of already pressured volunteer resources...



brittan said:


> 2. Each person seeking election to the committee would present their ideas, aspiration and 'vision' to the membership; a manifesto if you will, but at least something on which us members can make the judgement on how to vote. This assumes that Mark's comments on sorting out the member voting system is completed, as it must be.


...Conversely I agree wholeheartedly with that statement.


----------



## phope

rustyintegrale said:


> Why should the committee members be viewing proofs anyway? Surely copy and content checking will have taken place using electronic PDFs before it even went to print? If you're paying for wet proofs then you're paying over the odds for the print and since when does anyone on the committee know what to look for in a printer's proof?
> 
> This is exactly the kind of meddling I used to encounter when I was involved with the TTOC. It's unnecessary, time-consuming and wasteful of resources. If you know nothing about a particular aspect of running the club why on earth should you feel the need to pass judgement on the work produced by someone that does?


The committee team get asked by John to view the PDF proofs of the pages produced by the outside designer to help check for spelling errors, captions, descriptions...all that sort of thing


----------



## Gazzer

rustyintegrale said:


> phope said:
> 
> 
> 
> For the last few weeks, the committee members have been able to view the proofs and in-course work for the magazine, and even at the beginning of last week, John's editorial had not been able to be viewed - nothing wrong with that, as the magazine often comes together at the very last minute.
> 
> 
> 
> Why should the committee members be viewing proofs anyway? Surely copy and content checking will have taken place using electronic PDFs before it even went to print? If you're paying for wet proofs then you're paying over the odds for the print and since when does anyone on the committee know what to look for in a printer's proof?
> 
> This is exactly the kind of meddling I used to encounter when I was involved with the TTOC. It's unnecessary, time-consuming and wasteful of resources. If you know nothing about a particular aspect of running the club why on earth should you feel the need to pass judgement on the work produced by someone that does?
Click to expand...

I have to ask what John knew of any agenda going on to make his editors piece, as clearly a hidden agenda was festering that us members knew nothing about. John has worked tirelessly in trying to sort out members or ttf members that have been scammed. When no one else seemed to give a dam to be honest!
Membership grew rapidly from 200 to over 800 members, web members and of course fast tracking members that will not count as they didn't care about either forum but just being able to see for sale section.


----------



## rustyintegrale

Nem said:


> We're talking about PDF proofs which are usually circulated around the committee before going to print. The committee produces a magazine, not simply the editor. In this case the final pdf of the editorial which was placed for committee viewing was then altered and sent to print.


Yeah that's what I mean by electronic proofs - so produced directly from the DTP program before being passed to the printer. It's fairly common for PDFs to be edited afterwards but in this case I'd have thought it more likely that the InDesign or Quark file was changed.

But why does the 'committee' produce the magazine? The committee might be involved in planning and passing it for content but that should be the full extent of their involvement. Whoever produces it does the work and does it on behalf of the Club, not the committee. Any hindrance to that 'en masse' is akin to locking the petty cash tin and refusing the treasurer access until it has been approved by everyone else. I'd be amazed if anything gets done working in that environment.


----------



## paulc1

This looks like this is going to run and run and nothing positive is to come from this and thi is damaging the name of the club that keeps winning awards at the ADI awards , surely for the good of the TTOC this should stop and be sorted behind closed doors via Skype as continue bickering is going nowhere


----------



## rustyintegrale

phope said:


> The committee team get asked by John to view the PDF proofs of the pages produced by the outside designer to help check for spelling errors, captions, descriptions...all that sort of thing


That's an editor's job!

And it's 'get's' asked by John... :lol:


----------



## Nem

How about quoting the next post down Dani:



> by Nem » Wed May 18, 2011 11:39 pm
> 
> Just to clarify and update from this evenings chat with Jae:
> 
> I've not said we are going to do this, I might be Chairman but I've certainly not got the power to make this call, so nothing is going to happen for now anyway
> 
> We've had a positive chat with Jae this evening (myself and John) following are a few quick points...
> 
> Snip...


*Please desist in posting any more of my committee forum posts out of context or I will personally be speaking to this forum owners to have them removed.*


----------



## phope

rustyintegrale said:


> phope said:
> 
> 
> 
> The committee team get asked by John to view the PDF proofs of the pages produced by the outside designer to help check for spelling errors, captions, descriptions...all that sort of thing
> 
> 
> 
> That's an editor's job!
> 
> And it's 'get's' asked by John... :lol:
Click to expand...

Like I said, it's a team effort

Some are better at grammar than other


----------



## denTTed

Nem, I think your time is up. Your posts are becoming more childish as this thread continues, you've lost the trust of the committee you can do no more.


----------



## Gazzer

denTTed said:


> Nem, I think your time is up. Your posts are becoming more childish as this thread continues, you've lost the trust of the committee you can do no more.


+1 time to stand down......taxi on way for you nick, get ya coat lmao


----------



## Nem

denTTed said:


> Nem, I think your time is up. Your posts are becoming more childish as this thread continues, you've lost the trust of the committee you can do no more.


As a non member I can see how you have totally no understanding of this situation at all.

It is the majority of the committee which has lost trust in the club editor.

Am I supposed to sit here being misquoted and lied about?


----------



## rustyintegrale

phope said:


> rustyintegrale said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> phope said:
> 
> 
> 
> The committee team get asked by John to view the PDF proofs of the pages produced by the outside designer to help check for spelling errors, captions, descriptions...all that sort of thing
> 
> 
> 
> That's an editor's job!
> 
> And it's 'get's' asked by John... :lol:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Like I said, it's a team effort
> 
> Some are better at grammar than other
Click to expand...

Well at least two of us are finding something to laugh about on this thread.


----------



## Gazzer

Nem said:


> denTTed said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nem, I think your time is up. Your posts are becoming more childish as this thread continues, you've lost the trust of the committee you can do no more.
> 
> 
> 
> As a non member I can see how you have totally no understanding of this situation at all.
> 
> It is the majority of the committee which has lost trust in the club editor.
> 
> Am I supposed to sit here being misquoted and lied about?
Click to expand...

Deputy chair is a liar then? You all voted her in place and of all events I have been to Dani has been warm and welcoming unlike you nick.....see Adi topic two years a go by me and backed up by others. I took a large wall down today, want to borrow my shovel to dig a better hole m8?


----------



## Nem

No, the vice chair is purposely quoting me out of context to slur my name.

The editor is lying and manipulating the truth for his own gains.

And on the subject of ADI when you stood near me and said hello, you still seem to expect I should have stood and spent the morning making you feel welcome, possibly saying your name, or that you were even a club member might have helped.


----------



## Gazzer

Nem said:


> No, the vice chair is purposely quoting me out of context to slur my name.
> 
> The editor is lying and manipulating the truth for his own gains.
> 
> And on the subject of ADI when you stood near me and said hello, you still seem to expect I should have stood and spent the morning making you feel welcome, possibly saying your name, or that you were even a club member might have helped.


Oh you muppet, I had a TT on the stand! Not a member? Good job Dani was there to welcome us newbies ( me Adam and redsilverblue) all you wanted was too race, the cudos as chairman is great nick now act like one!!!


----------



## denTTed

Nem said:


> denTTed said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nem, I think your time is up. Your posts are becoming more childish as this thread continues, you've lost the trust of the committee you can do no more.
> 
> 
> 
> As a non member I can see how you have totally no understanding of this situation at all.
> 
> It is the majority of the committee which has lost trust in the club editor.
> 
> Am I supposed to sit here being misquoted and lied about?
Click to expand...

I was just commenting that if you've lost the faith of your team it's time to step aside.

Your response is completely uncalled for.


----------



## Ikon66

denTTed said:


> Nem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> denTTed said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nem, I think your time is up. Your posts are becoming more childish as this thread continues, you've lost the trust of the committee you can do no more.
> 
> 
> 
> As a non member I can see how you have totally no understanding of this situation at all.
> 
> It is the majority of the committee which has lost trust in the club editor.
> 
> Am I supposed to sit here being misquoted and lied about?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I was just commenting that if you've lost the faith of your team it's time to step aside.
> 
> Your response is completely uncalled for.
Click to expand...

Please refrain from personal attacks, you face a suspension if it happens again!!


----------



## denTTed

It wasn't a personal attack at all. Suspend me, it's only the interent.


----------



## Luvs my Cupra

paulc1 said:


> This looks like this is going to run and run and nothing positive is to come from this and thi is damaging the name of the club that keeps winning awards at the ADI awards , surely for the good of the TTOC this should stop and be sorted behind closed doors via Skype as continue bickering is going nowhere


I am not sure I agree with your view that this should be sorted out behind closed doors as surely all TTOC members should be made fully aware of what is occurring to THEIR club, then when it comes to the AGM they can make informed choices as to who they would prefer as committee members to act ON THEIR BEHALF?


----------



## Luvs my Cupra

Nem said:


> No, the vice chair is purposely quoting me out of context to slur my name.
> 
> *The editor is lying and manipulating the truth for his own gains.*
> 
> And on the subject of ADI when you stood near me and said hello, you still seem to expect I should have stood and spent the morning making you feel welcome, possibly saying your name, or that you were even a club member might have helped.


Excuse me for highlighting a sentence of yours but it made me Google the word libel and it came up with this definition; [smiley=book2.gif]

*English law allows actions for libel to be brought in the High Court for any published statements which are alleged to defame a named or identifiable individual (or individuals) in a manner which causes them loss in their trade or profession, or causes a reasonable person to think worse of him, her or them.*

Maybe an edit is in order?


----------



## Wallsendmag

1. The TTOC is NOT cutting ties with the forum

2. We didn't want to appear to be cashing in on the TTOC instant access to the market place so we have withdrawn that membership benefit.

3 There were complaints last year that the TTOC has too much influence on the forum. To combat these complaints we are not allowing committee members to be admin/mods on this forum .

The majority of the committee stand firmly with the chairman and had agreed that he would speak for all if us during this difficult time for the club


----------



## peter-ss

I was really pleased this morning when my copy of absoluTTe arrived but feel extremely disheartened after reading John's editorial, following which I found this thread.

I don't know much about what's been going on so can only comment on what I do know. On the face of it John appears to be one of the biggest contributors to the TTOC Club and the ********. John clearly puts a lot of work into the club magazine and is one of the most helpful people on the forum - just look at the Mk1 Knowledge Base.

From the 'outside' it seems a very sad state of affairs for such a hard working contributor to be given such a hard time.

It's also very sad that Steve feels that he can't continue and, as a result, has resigned from his post as Events Secretary. I often thought that Steve had a hard time from members over some of the events but, despite this, he's gone on when many of us would have thrown in the towel.

From a member's point of view there are two main things that the TTOC gives us - a high quality quarterly magazine and some great events to attend throughout the year. Without an events organiser or and a magazine editor we don't have a lot left.


----------



## KammyTT

I just want to see the article!!

You lot need to stop arguing!!

It's only a car club


----------



## rustyintegrale

KammyTT said:


> I just want to see the article!!
> 
> You lot need to stop arguing!!
> 
> It's only a car club


Yeah I'd like to see it too. I can't imagine it was an easy thing to do.


----------



## jamman

You both have PMs :wink:

NB Now awaiting a knock on the door from the TTOC Gestapo


----------



## mighTy Tee

As a member of various other (membership volunteer type) clubs and organisations, the one thing where the TTOC is very different is the rules on how long a committee position (especially the chairman position) can be held (normally only for 2 or 3 years).

Whilst not perfect because this normally means the vice chairman is the natural successor, it at least it forces change and can prevent any perceived dominance by one leader.

As for JohnH as editor, as a member who has been around since the very first AbsoluTTe, I have seen the magazine evolve and develop during the 10 years of the (current) TTOC. I should also be reading AbsoluTTe No 40 this weekend rather than No 33. I seem to remember previous editors had struggled to get the magazine out twice a year, JohnH has given a serious commitment to producing a quarterly magazine, and has pushed his team of proof readers to try and meet deadlines. Without John at the helm I fear unless a dedicated editor can be found, AbsoluTTe will become at best a bi-annual magazine.

The above is not meant as a criticism or endorsement of Nick or John, just the observations of a long term member.


----------



## A3DFU

Wallsendmag said:


> 1. The TTOC is NOT cutting ties with the forum


If that's the case then where does this statement come from?



> We leave the forum now, or the club finds a new Chairman.


Puzzled ,,,,


----------



## TT Law

A3DFU said:


> Wallsendmag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1. The TTOC is NOT cutting ties with the forum
> 
> 
> 
> If that's the case then where does this statement come from?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We leave the forum now, or the club finds a new Chairman.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Puzzled ,,,,
Click to expand...

Andrew,

It's not genuine to keep repeating that the club is not moving away from the forum.

You of all the committee were proposing that we should cut all ties and move on. This is not a critiscm it is a fact.

If it had not been for John the likely position at the moment would be the above.

The only way all this is going to get resolved is for the members to get involved and have a say. In the meantime what remains of the committee has an event to organise, find both an Editor and a fill the rest of the committee vacancies.

Steve


----------



## rustyintegrale

Having now seen John's missive in AbsoluTTe I really find it hard to understand what all the fuss is about.

John has obviously tried to resolve this the proper way and has not been able to do so. Frankly if I was to choose to support one or the other it would be John.

I have nothing against Nick personally whatsoever but really feel John makes a far bigger (visible) contribution than others to 'TT life' in general for the majority of owners.

To propose the separation of the Owners Club from the TTF is in my view short-sighted and appears to be a back-lash response driven by disapproval of the sale of the TTF to a commercial organisation. In reality such a momentus decision should involve a cohesive, member-approved plan. I suspect this would go against the wishes of the majority of members of the both the TTOC and the TTF and the only way to find this out conclusively is a free vote. I would seriously consider rejoining the TTOC to make my own opinion count - I feel that strongly about it.

The TTF is a rich recruiting ground for the TTOC and this row is no longer about personalities but the very future of the TTOC. Every time I check the TTOC 'Members Area' there are barely 2 or 3 registered users online. Yesterday when you'd expect a big rise in traffic there were just 4, so I think that speaks volumes.


----------



## Nem

We simply cannot repeat it enough times it seems that we are not leaving the TT Forum.

I was speaking to two of the owners on Friday about how well things are going.

Two years ago, we were warned from multiple sources about the possibly outcome of the forum sale and *EVERYONE*, John, Steve and Dani included were all geared up to set up our own forum and move away. For a good month following we started preparations when new information was presented to us.

This was discussed to death with the resolution to stick with it and see how it goes, agreed by all the committee.

In the meantime we build up our own private members forum, which still only two years later has 350 members which will never rival this forum, and use it for the delivery method for the online magazine.

Nothing has changed since. So while Dani is pulling up little snipets of other peoples private committee posts they are not the voice of the committee, even by my own admission in a quote I posted above, do I not have the control to move away from this forum on my say so.

Loosing Steve, can be seen in a couple of ways, but please bear in mind that last year, I organised the club presence at Ultimate Dubs, GTi International, Audis in the Park and Audi Driver International, while Dani fully organised Stanford Hall as usual. The reps all organised their local events. Steve booked Gaydon and interfaced with them, while Dani and John arranged the traders, I designed the tickets and Andrew posted them all out.

So, headline point is the events for 2013 will be no different. Ultimate Dubs is all ready fully organised, people on the stand arranged and signed up all with hotels booked for the weekend.

With regards the magazine, this will also continue at the same pace it always has done. Why John, or anyone else, thinks that John is the only person on this planet capable of editing a magazine is simply bewildering.


----------



## John-H

The editorial:



John-H said:


> *Being forced to makea dificult decision...*
> 
> It is with great regret and an ominous sense of loss that this may be my last absoluTTe magazine. I've been editing absoluTTe since issue 14 and now with issue 33 a grand total of 19, from countless late nights of hard work and eye strain. It's been tough but fun and I know readers have enjoyed seeing themselves and friends in print. I'm glad I've played my part in continuing what irst impressed me about the club-a quality, full glossy publication that wouldn't have looked out of place in any high street newsagent.
> 
> The TT Forum has seen off all rival forums and I have strived to bring TTOC and TTF together, as I believe we are stronger as one and members want the beneit this brings. I was instrumental in forging closer ties and negotiating our advertising revenue share deal with Jae and when he sold the forum, with the new owners. This was despite opposition from some committee members, who want to run their own forum and tried to stop me even talking to the forum owners.
> 
> In October last year an attempt was made to remove me as Editor. When that unconstitutional committee vote failed, resolutions were passed trying to force me to choose between being Editor and providing the forum with administrator and moderator services. I would be happy to carry on doing both but with moves to distance the club from the forum by stealth I have considerable doubts about where this is leading and whether I want to be part of it. One resolution Nick fails to mention is removal of the 'Home to the TTOC' banner from the forum home page. I think that speaks volumes. Committee members have one vote as any other member. What do you all think?
> John (aka John-H)


Sorry about leaving things so long to reply but I've been away over the weekend seeing my daughter and spending time with her which took priority. I had my phone with me but it's less than ideal for composing a long reply. I only had time for the odd quick look anyway.

On Friday evening (8th Feb) I received an email from Sara, the club secretary, informing me I was no longer a club member. My editor's email access had been removed, my access to the committee forum was blocked and I had even been removed as TT Forum administrator (that was resored by Steve Dawson TTFAdmin thankfully) and also Gazzer sent me a text saying hed been banned too.

Now I read that Nick did all this in a fit of peak after selecting those on the committee whom he wanted to vote. It doesn't surprise me.

As I'm not a TTOC member I will discuss this here.

It is of course wrong to censor members' free discussion on here just because one person doesn't like it. The point made that it is "club business" is misplaced. We are all TTF members on here and it is up to us as individuals to decide to discuss whatever we want and not for someone to tell us we can't. No forum rules have been broken. This is a valid discussion so I've unlocked this thread.

*Why?*

I'll now first say that I wanted to create a debate and bring things out into the open exposing both the nature of the committee and by bringing things to the attention of members hopefully safeguard the club and the forum from the dilution of separation.

For too long things have remained hidden from ordinary members. Committee business has been run in secret. There is no visibility of process apart from that which it is deemed suitable for membership consumption by the committee. This is wrong. Nothing said by committee members should be unavailable for scrutiny by any club member should they so wish (excepting personal private information or commercial information given in confidence etc.)

As editor my editorial is (or should I now say was?) my personal opinion and my comments alone. It always has been. At no time has the editorial ever been vetted or approved by the committee before hand. That's not how editorials work. The chairman's comments are similar in that respect. They do not get approved by the committee either and I usually get them direct from the chairman last minute and have to proof read them myself due to lack of time. I then write my editorial avoiding repeating anything Nick may have said or I may refer to something he said etc.

In this case I asked the designer to make a late change to my editorial (after the final pdf proofs had been made which the committee saw) to add the facts that the chairman had organised a vote in October 2012 to remove me as editor and raised a motion to remove the "Home to the TTOC" banner from the TT Forum. It's true that the pdf proofs were not updated but I didn't want the magazine held back given the likely fuss - which needed to include the membership not just be within the committee which had been a problem for so long.



Nem said:


> ... knowingly, willingly and purposefully he has printed is own version or events and blatant lies in the club magazine.
> ...
> 
> The editor is lying and manipulating the truth for his own gains..


Really?



Nem said:


> ... a 12 month old problem where one committee member is so against everything the majority of the committee is happy with and ends up making their life's a misery because of it.
> ...


*Start of 2012*

Let's look at this. Twelve months ago Jae was selling the forum. We had started with the assumption that the "Home to the TTOC" banner would be removed as would our sig strips and the TTOC admin and moderators would be removed and replaced. We would lose all the things we'd fought for Nick said and the forum would become over commercialised - we might as well set up our own forum. We all thought this at first. Nick used to run TT Arena before becaming a TTF admin, when he agreed to close TT Arena down - so he could set a forum up.

After some research I found out that Vertical Scope kept forums they aquired running much the same and kept the same admin and moderators. Nick argued against me because he was now so set on the idea of running his own forum he couldn't be reasoned with. The arguments went on for months.

Nick argued that our advertising revenue share we had agreed with Jae in return for the admin work we did on the forum would be lost too. I found out the new owners would likely continue it because they didn't want to rock the boat but Nick didn't believe this and told me I was wrong.

*March 2012*

Still the arguments continued. In March 2012 after the forum sale had been announced to the UK based Tyre Forums (Vertical Scope not mentioned), Nick claimed the 'peasants were revolting' on TTF and posted some unprofessional remarks about the new owners not being UK based - confidential information - as we had been told not to mention Vertical Scope in public. I had to contact Jae to get him to talk to him before Nick deleted the thread.

Nick insisted that the electronic version of the club magazine was most easily hosted within phpbb forum software as a platform. Conveniently we could have a members' area. Nick insisted it should be public and I insisted it should be private so as not to be seen as a rival and ruin the potential partnership with the new TTF owners we hadn't even spoken to yet. Another argument.

*April 2012*

Nick tried to stop me contacting Vertical Scope, saying it was up to them to contact us. By April 2012 I'd had enough of this negativity and contacted them myself. They were very friendly and agreeable and wanted to keep the club and forum together. They didn't want to rock any boats, agreed that admin and moderation should remain unchanged (apart from adding TTFAdmin), we'd still have our banners and importantly the advertising revenue share deal would continue unaltered so helping club funds. What more could you want from a new owner?

Instead of thanking me for doing this Nick told me I was wrong to have contacted them! He continued to argue that we should set up our own forum and that we'd be better off by attracting our own advertisers. He kept on comparing our then 700 members with the 2,700 active posters on TTF claiming we had a good base to launch a public forum. I argued that he was deluding himself - it's not a valid comparison - it's page impressions that advertisers are interested in and the TT Forum has around a million a month. The TTF is already so huge it's seen off every rival but Nick kept making the point that we would be different because we are the TTOC. I said we were 12 years too late.

Luckily the majority of the committee were persuaded to stick with the status quo TTF relationship. There were sulks and tantrums.

*July 2012*

All the advertisers had dropped off TTF because of the changeover of servers and not being able to make new commercial agreements and I worked hard to get them back on. Following a very successful EvenTT12 in July 2012, we were just about to receive our first payment through from Vertical Scope for the advertisers we had helped to bring on board when Andrew decided to spam the forum with posts saying that the owners of the forum were Vertical Scope. This would possibly put our agreement at risk.

I started to quickly delete the posts but they kept re-appearing so as admin I temporarily removed Andrew's access to the forum - I rang Nick and he told me I had "done the right thing" and "not to do anything further", to "leave Andrew banned" and that he would speak to him first and sort it out. He didn't do much though and told Andrew I'd banned him.

On 26th July at midnight Andrew sent me a text asking to be allowed back on the TT Forum. I asked if he had spoken to Nick yet as he was supposed to be sorting things, I asked if he promised not to post about Vertical Scope. Andrew asked if I wanted him to lie about who owned the forum.

The next morning Andrew sent me another text with a link to Tyre Forum's website where it had been announced on 27th June 2012 that Tyre Forums had been purchased by Vertical Scope. This was the first that any of us knew that this information was in the public domain. It was also clear now why there had been a confidentiality restriction with an acquisition in progress. Tyre Forums was now a subsidiary of Vertical Scope.

Andrew started posting that he was back and deserved an apology - despite us only just finding out that the information he posted wasn't confidential. Nick, asked me to write a statement about Andrew's temporary banning as he was too busy going away on an exclusive Audi hospitality weekend jolly in Copenhagen. I wrote an explanation which tried to spare Andrew too much embarrassment and sent Nick a copy for approval before posting.

The advertising revenue share payment from Vertical Scope arrived safely during all of this.

*August 2012*

Nick, told Steve Law in August 2012 at AITP that Andrew had made a complaint that either I go or Andrew goes. Nick repeated this to me on August bank holiday at the Shark open day.

*October 2012*

In October Nick asked me to resign and when I refused he organised a constitutionally flawed vote to vote me off the committee. He told me that Andrew is more important to the club as an editor can be replaced. This is for members to decide not Nick and a select few of the committee. The possibility of this vote only came about because of some changes in committee personnel.

At no time has Nick attempted to smooth things over which a chairman should have done or even taken responsibility himself given that he took over dealing with Andrew - instead this smacks of engineering a situation to achieve an outcome. He seems to have sought to factionalise the committee into two camps. At this point we became dysfunctional.

*Conclusion*

So, the "12 month old problem" has been me and others of a like mind struggling against Nick and co who seemed hell bent on scuppering the relationship with the new owners.

Has Nick now really changed his mind over setting up his own public forum? He's already got it set up as a private forum - it's an easy switch to make. He's been arging for going it alone since 2010 when the TTOC and TTF became "as one".

Removing TTOC admin from the TT forum support does beg the question what would they be paying us for? With that gone there's less reason to stay for monetary reasons. Removing the TTOC member trusted status market place fast track would then favour a TTOC version of a market which Nick has said he intends to set up. Removing the "Home to the TTOC" banner is an obvious symbolic one.

Interesting that these very things which took years to gain on the TT Forum are now so easily being dropped. It's a complete about turn.

The really stupid thing is that the TTF and TTOC have been doing so very well with increased membership and success and a healthy bank balance - so why change a successful formula?

I'll let members ponder that one...


----------



## Gazzer

hi John, good week end with the daughter i hope bud? and did you indulge a hot curry as Dani hinted you might lol........

if what you have written here is fact then i suggest you get some copies of logs and minutes together for an egm that i feel must now happen in light of the whole situation. btw great mag as usual............wd sir


----------



## KammyTT

I feel that John has been wrongly done and should be reinstated as editor!

He's done a fantastic job over the years and is always in hand to help forum members in any way he can!

I've never seen John become irate or throw the dummy out of the pram which leads me to believe that what he is saying is true!

Hopefully all the egos involved will realise that this is a car owners club that is meant to be fun to be involved in and not something that gives a sense of power!!

I know that my comments don't mean anything to anyone but just giving my 2p's worth


----------



## A3DFU

A true and good statement, John.


----------



## neilc

I have been simply monitoring these numerous threads over the last few days and resisted the temptation to post in but I feel my opinion as a someone at the ground level of the TTOC should be listened to by all. I have posted this same post in the members forum also but as stated elsewhere the vast majority of members view here so feel it appropriate to post here too.

The role of a regional rep is at the heart of what the TTOC does and is a hard enough job at the best of times as we see first hand the difficulty in getting people involved in the good things that the club does.

On another hand I actively promote TTOC membership through my business and have always tried very hard to get new TT owners excited about the TTOC and the TTF too as I feel the connection is incredibly important to TT owners.This debacle can only make things harder to get people excited about the club and its functions.

I don't want to bang on for ages like many other members feel the need to but I do have a few words you should all read to yourselves.

" The TTOC is a car club for people who own Audi TT's or who like Audi TT's "

Yes read that back to yourselves again...... And then really question yourself before further posting.

That's all the club is nothing more nothing less.

Lets all remember why we are fellow members of this club , it should be fun surely ?? To share a joint passion with other likeminded people.

And I for one believe all members should sit back and reflect on those facts.

Neil


----------



## AfterHouR

Thank you John for documenting this, it's sad all this has gone on behind closed doors and the members, I being one of them was unaware of the full situation.

All the workings of the club should be transparent and decisions not made by a select few 'representatives', yes 'representatives' of the members not dictators and you can only be representatives if you consult members... and to the narrow minded judgmental comments about attending AGM's etc.. I will re-iterate, this is my first year of membership, you don't know my situation, I have not been able to attend any meetings so far due to work and family commitments and I will not be the unique out of a membership of 840....

Some of the comments that have been posted clearly show the attitudes of some of the committee members and that attitude stinks. It is obvious to everyone this has been an omnishables for some time but we need to move on with a committee that actually want to do the job with the club / members interests paramount, not personal gain or any other agenda.

Yes we are all passionate about our cars but if you pay membership to be part of an owners club, that entitles you to a vote of how that club is ran and not to be treat like a mushroom.... This cannot continue the way it is big changes have to be made and decisions made by members as a whole not by a kangaroo court...


----------



## Phil_RS

A3DFU said:


> A true and good statement, John.


Not posted on this as with all these things each side will have their own story.

But this comment from the Vice Chairman speaks volumes....


----------



## bigsyd

Reading between the lines there has been a hell of a lot of finger pointing and accusations from a few members on here, people accusing others.... People defending others
The truth is is that some are telling lies some are quoting out of date info to make there points valid and others are defending/ criticising others when they are not in position of the whole truth
This whole post is just going round in circles and tbh I have no idea how to fix this mess
I do see a band of people on fb who seem to be ganging up on some members.... But are they right to do so or are they being influenced ?
You know its a bloody car forum and not the G8 summit and quite a few are enjoying there tiny bit of power


----------



## les

I have just seen this thread and feel I need to clarify my position seeing I was mentioned early on in it my TTlaw.
I wish to let it be known I have never been on the committee of the TTOC at any time in my 7 years membership. I am nolonger even a member of the TTOC having decided not to renew my membership.

I was however the NW rep of the TTOC and resigned approx 9 months ago. My resignation was in part due to the goings on on the committee but far from wholly to it. I am not sure what's happening to the TTOC but somethings for sure its not the club I joined all those years ago. I feel the present situation is very sad indeed but it comes as no surprise to me. I said sometime ago recent events could be the death of the TTOC as we know it.

I have yet to read through all 5 pages of this thread but will do so as I am just home from work. I will say this The TTOC has a constitution, rules and regulations and if you ride roughshod over them then sooner or later it will come back to haunt you. He who rules by the sword will fall by the sword and no one person should be bigger or think he is bigger than the club.


----------



## les

Least we forget but then some committee members seem to have done so already.
Committee Roles & ResponsibilitiesWhat is a committee?

Committee Roles & Responsibilities
What is a committee?
How do committees work?
What makes a good committee?
What makes a good committee member?
Roles within a committee
Main duties of the Chair
Main duties of the Treasurer
Main duties of the Secretary
Final Thoughts
Support

Related Articles
How to Write a Constitution
Annual General Meetings (AGM)

committees can be described in different ways as follows:

•Board of Trustees (Registered Charity)
•Board of Directors (Company Limited by Guarantee)
•Committee / Management Committee (Unincorporated Organisation)
Whatever structure an organisation or group has, all committees have certain responsibilities in common. It is these common responsibilities we will outline in this guide.

How do committees work?
Committees are normally made up of between three and twelve people, and should meet regularly to make decisions about the direction of the organisation or group. It is possible to have more than twelve people on a committee, but the more people you have round the table, the more difficult it can become to reach agreement on decisions.

The committee is responsible for making sure that the organisation sticks to its aims and objectives as detailed in the Constitution (see the Constitution Information Leaflet). As committees have overall responsibility for the management of an organisation's affairs, committee members can face personal liability should things go wrong. That is why it is important to meet regularly and make sure that the correct information comes to meetings so that committee members can make informed decisions.

To summarise then, being on a committee involves:

•Having a shared sense of purpose (following aims & objectives)
•Providing direction and leadership
•Taking collective responsibility
•Dealing with compliance issues (e.g. Registered Charities must follow Charity Law requirements)
•Being accountable to stakeholders (e.g. members, funders, service users, the wider community)
•Communication
•Organising events
•Community engagement
•Advocacy and networking
All committees need people with a mixture of skills to be able to meet their responsibilities. Many people choose to get involved because they want to give something back to their local community or support a good cause as well as recognising that committee work can bring benefits to the individual.

What makes a good committee?

Many of us know of examples of committees that don't work. These are committees where meetings drag on and no actions are agreed, committee members do not take part in discussion or are discouraged from doing so, personal differences make it difficult to focus on the business at hand and so on. To work well, committees rely on the following:

•Members who understand their responsibilities and role
•Having the right mixture of skills, abilities and experience around the table
•Commitment to the role and the aims and objectives of the organisation or group
•Having a sense of purpose which translates into leadership
•An understanding of the boundaries between overall direction and day-to-day management (for organisations with staff)
Often committees form with the aim of making something happen in their local area or community; members have a clear sense of purpose and a list of jobs to be done. However, as the organisation develops and new people become involved, committees sometimes forget to take a step back every now and again and check whether or not they are meeting the requirements listed above. CVS Fife can help any committee which is interested in reviewing its activities. We can deliver refresher sessions for experienced Boards on roles and responsibilities, with specific reference to Charity Law requirements where appropriate. We can also deliver sessions for new committees looking to get to grips with their role. Please contact us for further information.

What makes a good committee member?
Now that we've covered what is required from the whole committee, it's time to think about what is needed from individual committee members. A good committee member:

•Commits to preparing for and attending meetings
•Has a good understanding of the organisation, what it does and how it does it
•Is not afraid to ask questions
•Agrees to stick to the majority decision
•Supports fellow committee members and staff
•Acts as an advocate for the organisation
Most of the things covered in the above list may seem very obvious, but many existing committees find that if they honestly assess themselves against this list then there are usually some areas for improvement. For example, if you are a committee or Board member, have a look at the statements below. Which one is closest to where you are?:

•I always arrive on time for meetings, having read all the papers and considered any questions I want to raise. I also make sure that any action points assigned to me at the last meeting have been progressed
•I usually rush in for the meeting just as it's about to start. I print off the papers but don't always have time to read them beforehand. I'm involved in a few committees or I have lots of work/family commitments and it can be difficult to keep up with the committee work
In all honesty, most committee members are likely to fall somewhere in between these two categories. This is another good reason for committees to stop what they are doing every now and again and take part in a review session as described in the previous section. By doing this, you can identify any problem areas before they grow. Committee members sometimes need some support to help them stay involved, and it's usually much easier to provide this support than to have to recruit a new committee member.

Roles within a committee
As well as having general committee member positions, most committees also have Office Bearer positions which come with specific responsibilities. The most common Office Bearer positions are:

•Chair
•Treasurer
•Secretary
Some organisations will choose to have additional positions such as Vice-Chair - the Constitution will provide guidance on this (see Constitutions information leaflet).

Main duties of the Chair
The Chairperson of an organisation has three main elements to his/her remit as follows:

•Assisting with the managerial direction of the organisation
•Planning and running meetings
•Acting as spokesperson/figurehead
The way that these three areas of responsibility break down into individual tasks will depend a bit on the organisation. For example, in small, volunteer-only organisations, the committee tends to be responsible not only for setting the direction but also for carrying out much of the work. In this type of organisation, the Chairperson will probably manage things on a day-to-day basis. However, in a larger organisation with staff, the Chair's role will be to support the Manager, not to get involved in day-to-day work.

If you are looking to recruit a new Chairperson, consider pulling together a Role Profile (a bit like a job description) if you do not already have one. You can use the headings above to structure the role profile, thinking of the individual tasks that have to be carried out under each one. It is always easier to recruit someone if you can be clear what the role responsibilities are. For further help with Role Profiles, contact CVS Fife.

Main duties of the Treasurer
The Treasurer also has three main areas of responsibility:

•Keeping an overview of the finances of the organisation
•Reporting into committee meetings
•Making sure the organisation has the right financial policies and procedures in place
Again, the exact duties will vary depending on whether or not the organisation employs staff. In addition, if an organisation is a Registered Charity or a Company (or both), it will have to comply with specific financial regulations which will have a bearing on the treasurer's role.

Good management of finances is vital to the smooth running of the organisation. However, it is important to remember that while the Treasurer has a specific role within the committee in relation to money matters, the overall responsibility for financial management lies with the whole committee. Therefore, a key part of the Treasurer's role involves reporting to the committee on finances and it is important that everyone around the table understands the financial information given.

Main duties of the Secretary

The Secretary's main responsibilities are:

•Supporting the administration of the organisation
•Facilitating and supporting committee meetings
In small, volunteer-only groups, the Secretary's role is often crucial as he/she will probably have to deal with most of the paperwork. In larger organisations with Company status, the Company Secretary is a formal position with specific legal responsibilities in relation to liaising with Companies House. For nearly all organisations, the Secretary also has specific duties in relation to notifying members about Annual General Meetings (see AGMs information leaflet).

And Finally
Your constitution will give guidance as to who is eligible to stand for membership of the committee (see Constitutions information leaflet). It is important for all committees to be thinking about how they will attract new members on an ongoing basis; as mentioned above, there can be lots of benefits to the individual in getting involved. Many organisations now advertise, using local newspapers and community websites, when looking to recruit


----------



## Patrizio72

Whats gona happen? can anyone let people know in as few a words as possible?


----------



## rustyintegrale

Patrizio72 said:


> Whats gona happen? can anyone let people know in as few a words as possible?


Boom!


----------



## Mark Davies

Patrizio72 said:


> Whats gona happen? can anyone let people know in as few a words as possible?


Well, I'd suggest what's needed is that the entire committee stands down, there is an open debate amongst the membership about how you'd like the club to move forward; whether you actually want a committee at all and if so what form it should be in, what its responsibilities should be and how they should be selected. We need to re-write the constitution to set up structures for the future management of the club. Then, once things are set up the way the membership wants it we can vote for a new committee - presuming of course that's what people want.

There are actually talks along these lines within the committee - completely failing to recognise that actually their views have become somewhat irrelevant. They're still presuming to exert absolute control and make decisions on your behalf without consulting you, which is why your shop has been closed entirely out of the blue.

Sadly I don't think some people are ever going to grasp the concept of stepping beond their authority so it may be that the members are going to have to call an EGM in order to throw the committee out and get control of their club back.


----------



## rustyintegrale

Mark Davies said:


> Patrizio72 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Whats gona happen? can anyone let people know in as few a words as possible?
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I'd suggest what's needed is that the entire committee stands down, there is an open debate amongst the membership about how you'd like the club to move forward; whether you actually want a committee at all and if so what form it should be in, what its responsibilities should be and how they should be selected. We need to re-write the constitution to set up structures for the future management of the club. Then, once things are set up the way the membership wants it we can vote for a new committee - presuming of course that's what people want.
> 
> There are actually talks along these lines within the committee - completely failing to recognise that actually their views have become somewhat irrelevant. They're still presuming to exert absolute control and make decisions on your behalf without consulting you, which is why your shop has been closed entirely out of the blue.
> 
> Sadly I don't think some people are ever going to grasp the concept of stepping beond their authority so it may be that the members are going to have to call an EGM in order to throw the committee out and get control of their club back.
Click to expand...

Well aside from failing to answer Patrizio72's request for 'as few words as possible' I think that's a pretty good summary. :lol:

I can't believe the way this is being handled.

Actually, I can. Sadly. :?


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## bigsyd

> failing to answer Patrizio72's request for 'as few words as possible


That may have been marks attempt :lol: :lol:

To me the TTF will continue what ever as its such a popular forum... Is the TTOC needed


----------



## rustyintegrale

bigsyd said:


> failing to answer Patrizio72's request for 'as few words as possible
> 
> 
> 
> That may have been marks attempt :lol: :lol:
Click to expand...

 :lol: :lol: :lol: Pity anyone having to take the minutes of any meeting with Mark as Chair!


----------



## bigsyd

rustyintegrale said:


> bigsyd said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> failing to answer Patrizio72's request for 'as few words as possible
> 
> 
> 
> That may have been marks attempt :lol: :lol:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> :lol: :lol: :lol: Pity anyone having to take the minutes of any meeting with Mark as Chair!
Click to expand...

Love it


----------



## A3DFU

Mark Davies said:


> Well, I'd suggest what's needed is that the entire committee stands down, there is an open debate amongst the membership about how you'd like the club to move forward; whether you actually want a committee at all and if so what form it should be in, what its responsibilities should be and how they should be selected. We need to re-write the constitution to set up structures for the future management of the club. Then, once things are set up the way the membership wants it we can vote for a new committee - presuming of course that's what people want.


Good post, Mark. I agree with you


----------



## westcoTT

Mark Davies said:


> Patrizio72 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Whats gona happen? can anyone let people know in as few a words as possible?
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I'd suggest what's needed is that the entire committee stands down, there is an open debate amongst the membership about how you'd like the club to move forward; whether you actually want a committee at all and if so what form it should be in, what its responsibilities should be and how they should be selected. We need to re-write the constitution to set up structures for the future management of the club. Then, once things are set up the way the membership wants it we can vote for a new committee - presuming of course that's what people want.
> 
> There are actually talks along these lines within the committee - completely failing to recognise that actually their views have become somewhat irrelevant. They're still presuming to exert absolute control and make decisions on your behalf without consulting you, which is why your shop has been closed entirely out of the blue.
> 
> Sadly I don't think some people are ever going to grasp the concept of stepping beyond their authority so it may be that the members are going to have to call an EGM in order to throw the committee out and get control of their club back.
Click to expand...

I`m with you on this Mark


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## John-H

Democracy and what members want is the only way forward for the club which is its membership after all. You decide.


----------



## les

Well seems to me the only real way forward now is for the committee to resign en block and then to apply for whatever positions they wish and let the membership decide the fate of all, who they want, in what position and how they want to reshape the club. This is far too big for the committee to decide who should go and who should stay.


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## EdwardRW

So how comes according to the facebook page the club shop is back open after a mis understanding? Are things all sorted now? Cos that was a quick turn arround if they are!!!


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## Ikon66

EdwardRW said:


> So how comes according to the facebook page the club shop is back open after a mis understanding? Are things all sorted now? Cos that was a quick turn arround if they are!!!


Looks like mr wallsendmag got a mis communication


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## Nem

The initial suggestion has been that the entire committee is to be removed and then a caretaker committee put in place to assist in the re-election of all committee positions, consisting of either new people or current committee members applying for their own post back.

With no committee in place there is nobody to process shop orders so in reality we would normally close the shop, this has been done before, ie when Andrew is on holiday and nobody has had a problem with that before.

This course of action isn't yet in motion so for now the shop is to stay open, so Andrew slightly jumped the gun. We will carry on to take on shop orders as the club will continue to run no matter who is running it.

Seeing as less than 5% of the total membership is currently having any say in this, on here or the members area, nothing is going to happen immediately. A statement is going to be prepared I believe to explain to the membership the options available. This I see as either the current committee continues from this point and moves forward, or, all committee members stand down and a process of re-election is drawn up. But until the overall membership is consulted neither option can be arranged.


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## A3DFU

I take it that the Vice Chairman does not need to be informed of any discussion going on ,,,, :?


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## Nem

A3DFU said:


> I take it that the Vice Chairman does not need to be informed of any discussion going on ,,,, :?


Stop acting dumb Dani, it's on the committee / rep forum, it was started by a rep.


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## John-H

Charming!


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## EdwardRW

I'm sorry I've only been a member a matter of weeks and I don't know many of you.

I don't know how old any of you are or your backgrounds but all I can say as a 22 year old who thoroughly loves his tt, that a lot of people seem like they need to grow up a bit and this needs to be sorted!! I joined the ttoc to extend my interest after spending days trawling through information on the TTf so sort it out and grow up a little. I wouldn't expect people of my age to behave like this let alone older people which I presume some of you may well be!

If I'm wrong then I apologise for stepping in but this is pretty childish and needs resurrecting before things go any further!


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## Nem

It's one of three places this is all being discussed, I'm sure the membership would expect the vice chair to be monitoring everything being said on this situation.

Trying to suggest she's not seen it is simply giving the wrong impression that people are being left out of the discussion when that is totally not the case.


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## jamman

Nick a much better answer the second time around maybe you should think a little longer before typing


----------



## Nem

You have a very valid point.

While I might have made a decision which I am now being made to answer for I hope people can start to see there is more to this story.


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## RudeBadger

This thread is useless without pics ! :roll:


----------



## Luvs my Cupra

Nem said:


> It's one of three places this is all being discussed, I'm sure the membership would expect the vice chair to be monitoring everything being said on this situation.
> 
> Trying to suggest she's not seen it is simply giving the wrong impression that people are being left out of the discussion when that is totally not the case.


Have you considered that maybe the vice chair is going on your recent historic behavior of excluding committee members on important decisions, for example the current debacle which was started by you and a couple other committee 'officers' ??

With regards to closing the TTshop down that stinks of a child having a massive tantrum and taking his ball home.


----------



## AfterHouR

les said:


> Well seems to me the only real way forward now is for the committee to resign en block and then to apply for whatever positions they wish and let the membership decide the fate of all, who they want, in what position and how they want to reshape the club. This is far too big for the committee to decide who should go and who should stay.





JOHN-H said:


> Democracy and what members want is the only way forward for the club which is its membership after all. You decide.


+1 +1


----------



## audimad

Nem said:


> A3DFU said:
> 
> 
> 
> I take it that the Vice Chairman does not need to be informed of any discussion going on ,,,, :?
> 
> 
> 
> Stop acting dumb Dani, it's on the committee / rep forum, it was started by a rep.
Click to expand...

Nick please show some respect when you talk to Dani, that was uncalled for. :x


----------



## Nem

I find is slightly amusing that the very small number of people in this thread now seem to think they have the right to suggest the committee stand down.

What about the other 800+ members, do their views not count?

Also, I did not close the shop. I suggested it remain open when asked, as the club will continue no matter who is on the committee.

Maybe the vice chair could keep her finger on the pulse and check what is happening before making suggestions that she is being left out, as that really isn't helping.


----------



## bigsyd

Nem said:


> You have a very valid point.
> 
> While I might have made a decision which I am now being made to answer for I hope people can start to see there is more to this story.


See all is not as clear cut as people think it is :roll: I am not defending nick.... But it's got that bad I have NO idea who to believe is trying to fix things


----------



## rustyintegrale

FFS, the whole committee should follow the Pope's example.

Then if they wish they should stand for re-election alongside any others who may be interested. It doesn't matter who was right or who was wrong. The whole thing has been handled appallingly and continuing to plead innocence - rightly or wrongly is not going to make a jot of difference.

This episode needs to be cleared aside as quickly as possible for the sake of the club - and all 800+ members.


----------



## A3DFU

Nem said:


> A3DFU said:
> 
> 
> 
> I take it that the Vice Chairman does not need to be informed of any discussion going on ,,,, :?
> 
> 
> 
> Stop acting dumb Dani, it's on the committee / rep forum, it was started by a rep.
Click to expand...

Thank you Mr. Chairman. If you're referring to this thread there was no mention of closing the club shop when I last looked

http://www.ttoc.co.uk/members/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=443


----------



## Nem

Well it seems all really is lost seeing as the vice chair doesn't know the difference between the members area and the committee / rep forum.


----------



## A3DFU

Yes Nick, I've read the relevant thread just before you posted.....and now again.
My mistake that I still have to work for my living despite being an OAP, so I can't be on the computer 24/7

It would be prudent though if committee members would be informed (if not consulted) before ation was taken.


----------



## brittan

Nem said:


> You have a very valid point.
> 
> While I might have made a decision which I am now being made to answer for I hope people can start to see there is more to this story.


You know, I thought I detected a touch of humility in the above post by Nick.

If I did, then it didn't last long:



Nem said:


> I find is slightly amusing that the very small number of people in this thread now seem to think they have the right to suggest the committee stand down.
> 
> What about the other 800+ members, do their views not count?
> 
> Also, I did not close the shop. I suggested it remain open when asked, as the club will continue no matter who is on the committee.
> 
> Maybe the vice chair could keep her finger on the pulse and check what is happening before making suggestions that she is being left out, as that really isn't helping.


Nobody has suggested that the views of the other 800+ members don't count; in fact the reverse is true.
And if you think that amongst that number a mere 25 can't be found to sign a motion to force an EGM you are mistaken.
Prepare your statement of options for the members but do it quickly. I'm sure you can predict the result.

The blip with the shop is of no consequence and on that no one cares who said what, when.

Your last sentence only confirms that tolerance within the committee, even on a public forum, is completely lost.


----------



## Nem

I'm certainly trying, but it is difficult when people are still twisting the knife.

It's difficult to not stand up and defend whet I believe in.


----------



## Duffy

Is it just me or has a way forward been advised by Nem which involves everyone within the membership deciding on the way forward? Why the continued digs. It looks petty and childish. Let due process take its course and a vote as you see fit.

There is obvious factions that oppose Nem as Chairman and they are entitled to that view, however, the members of TTOC will decide not them and continued sniping strengthens no ones argument merely detracts from the actual message which is important....the way forward!


----------



## brittan

Nem said:


> It's difficult to not stand up and defend whet I believe in.


Nothing wrong with that Nick, I'd expect no less.

Sometimes though you just have to rise above provocation however difficult that might be.


----------



## rustyintegrale

Nem said:


> I'm certainly trying, but it is difficult when people are still twisting the knife.
> 
> It's difficult to not stand up and defend whet I believe in.


Nick, I'm not sure people are twisting the knife (I can't speak for other committee members), I think they just want it resolved. The simplest way to do this is to all stand down and stand for re-election.

You'd all have the opportunity to detail what it is you stand for with a clean slate and the membership will vote. That'll put an end to all this and the club can move on and you can put a bad episode in an otherwise good term as chairman behind you.


----------



## Skipton01

Nem said:


> While I might have made a decision which I am now being made to answer for I hope people can start to see there is more to this story.


I think that this is the crux of the crisis that we now find ourselves in - as Chair of the club, it's not up to you to make a decision - you should know that decisions should be taken by a quorate number of the committee after proper discussion. Your role as Chair is mainly a figurehead one - you chair meetings and have a casting vote if necessary, and you're there to accept awards and also to give out honours too.

As a new-ish member here (but a very long standing director of another Audi club), I would urge you to consider your position in view of this remark and also in the very immature way you respond to other committee members (eg Dani).

This matter needs to be resolved NOW and a new pro-active committee, who are willing to properly discuss matters should be put in place before Easter. Has John committed a mortal sin? I don't think so. Perhaps it is time to lay the cards on the table to the general membership and get a consensus as to how best to proceed?


----------



## Mark Davies

Skipton01 said:


> Perhaps it is time to lay the cards on the table to the general membership and get a consensus as to how best to proceed?


Agreed - absolutely.

Nick - Dani has a point. People can't be watching 2 or 3 different forums constantly yet it seems if you turn your back on any of them for an hour you come back and in your absence a decision has been made! This is what happens when individuals dictate. As has been so rightly pointed out above, it is not your place to be making these unilateral proclamations. How many times does it need to be said? You are just one member with one vote just like the other 800+ of us. I appreciate you're just striving to provide leadership in your way but you've no right to do it, so please simplify the situation and stop doing it. I think the situation is now beyond anything you can legitimately claim to take charge of.

The committee have created this mess - they have to take their hands off the club and leave this to the members.


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## les

Nem said:


> What about the other 800+ members, do their views not count?


Well they don't appear to have in the recent past so why consider them now? Harr yes come to think of it I think I know the answer to that one :wink:


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## bigbison

yawn yawn snor

is it over can i wake up have i beat the longest post comp :lol:


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## Jae

Right, seems that things are looking a tad shabby round the edges here.

I have to first say that John-H's version of events tallys with my own recollection of things that I was involved with. John-H was instrumental in working with the new owners, to secure the TTOC revenue stream (the person who raised the concern over losing it was in fact me, as I didnt know what was going to happen post sale). He took it upon himself to reach out to the owenrs and secure the deal he mentions.

While the editorial may not have been the wisest platform for John-H to address concerns, it seems a fair and valid point has been made and seems to be a little harsh in its resulting sacking. It was factual, but should have been delivered another way.

Historically, the TTOC did stand separate to TTF. I helped Russell setup the first iteration of TTOC all those years ago and while Ive never been a member, Ive always tried to strive to assist in the well-being of the club (the TTF has NEVER made a cent out of the TTOC for example). In 2010 the TTOC and TTF agreed to start working closer together to drive membership and revenue to the club (notice, not to the TTF) and we introduced the revenue sharing principle to fund the Mod/Admin work. Seemed like business sense. And for the record, the TTF sponsored EvenTT10 in excess of 4 figures.

Nick and I did have several discussions, we agreed on some areas, we disagreed with others. But one thing I did raise a concern about was the "what if" situation - what if the new owners cut the TTOC off from TTF? I said it would be wise for the TTOC to look at their own Forum for their membership if that happens and that if they needed certain aspects of content that would help them with creating that environment, then they should do so before the sale was completed, as post sale, the content was no longer owned by me. And no, it wasn't for them to copy the entire site, it was for them to use things like the How To's etc, which was mostly written by TTOC members anyway (and anyone on the internet can copy and paste!). It was to help the TTOC keep their momentum, should things have changed with the new owners. It didn't, so that never happened.

So, zip forward to today, and this spat that seems to be going on WITHIN the TTOC Committee. Its very plain for all to see in this thread that there is an issue between several members. It seems very plain for all that this has to be resolved. It seems plain to all that we live in a democracy and that the membership should work TOGETHER to find a way forward - it is, after all, their club.

This Forum is NOT the place to be arguing, but it (and the TTOC Members area) is the place where the membership should have the transparency to make decisions, if they chose, toward the future of the TTOC.

I suggest that the TTOC ask themselves what is the best way to proceed, even have a monumental Skype call that lasts hours and hours, because if you are all as enthusiastic as you claim to be towards the TT and the Owners Club you have the DUTY to do whats best for the club and NOT to make what ever personal disagreements you may have public.

While I am now impartial to the TTOC and the TTF, my vote would be for John-H to be reinstated and an emergency Committee Meeting be held ASAP to discuss and resolve these issues. Also, the daft idea of not allowing committee members to at least moderate the forum (and Administrate, why not) should be reviewed with an intention of being overturned - the revenue stream could soon be cut off if the new owners don't see the benefit. Then what for the TTOC?

Sort it out.

Jae


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## jamman

Thanks for taking the time to post this mate


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## rustyintegrale

Jae said:


> I suggest that the TTOC ask themselves what is the best way to proceed, even have a monumental Skype call that lasts hours and hours, because if you are all as enthusiastic as you claim to be towards the TT and the Owners Club you have the DUTY to do whats best for the club and NOT to make what ever personal disagreements you may have public.
> 
> While I am now impartial to the TTOC and the TTF, my vote would be for John-H to be reinstated and an emergency Committee Meeting be held ASAP to discuss and resolve these issues. Also, the daft idea of not allowing committee members to at least moderate the forum (and Administrate, why not) should be reviewed with an intention of being overturned - the revenue stream could soon be cut off if the new owners don't see the benefit. Then what for the TTOC?
> 
> Sort it out.
> 
> Jae


Nicely put Jae.


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## les

jamman said:


> Thanks for taking the time to post this mate


+1 its good to hear the views of somebody who knows what was said and done rather than claim and counter claim and the membership having to try and untangle what was or what was not said and done. Very difficult for the membership to know who to believe but Jae IMO has laid the confusion to rest with his post. Nic has not come out of this very well and Jae has supported Johns' side of events. Seems to me and I would guess many there is but one way forward now and put it to the membership.


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## bigsyd

+1 it's a breath of fresh air just to read something from somebody who has a bloody good idea how things should be...TAKE NOTE and learn and get the internals sorted


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## Gazzer

fair dinkum on jae popping in.....with 250k hanging out his arse pocket (lucky sod) lol. i read it earlier and wanted to post but thought better of it after i started all of the hassles with my post about john.
never knew jae, so cannot comment as i hardly saw him post, where i could read between his posts to guage the man behind them. so all i can say is, apparently he was there..........when it all went to sale so knows that side of it.
rest is the committee's history of self destruction i guess.


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## peter-ss

I have read both versions of events, from John and Nick, and have spent far too much of my time reading the majority of the posts in between.

My understanding from all of this is that the Committee have been split for some time, mainly over the relationship between TTOC and TTF.

Both John and Andrew have said things in places that they perhaps shouldn't have - Andrew's punishment for this has been a temporary ban from the TTF whilst John's punishment is to no longer be a member of the TTOC.

I would like to think that I have a good relationship with people on both sides of the fence here. John was one of the first Committee members that I ever spoke to, due to his Knowledge Base articles on the TTF and his role as magazine editor. Later on I got to know Andrew, when I bought his Mk2 V6 and from there I gradually got to know others on the Committee such as Nick and Dani - Some Committee members I have only become familiar with over the past few days.

I think that EVERYONE needs to draw a line under this, put the past behind them, and move on. There are obviously a lot of passionate people within the Committee and if they were all to pull in the same direction it could lead to great things - It seems that the majority are now in agreement with what's happening between the TTOC and TTF anyway.

I have to say that if John does remain out of the equation and Dani went too then I would seriously consider whether to renew my TTOC membership, as I would if Andrew and Val were no longer a part of it - It just wouldn't be the same.

This is, of course, just my personal option but I think that getting rid of anyone, in the way that it's been done, will upset a lot of people and the club will suffer as a result. Don't forget that it's not all about what the Committee wants but more so about the members - Without us there won't be much of a club.

Peter.


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## Gazzer

Fair and honest post Peter............


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## LordG71

Hi All,

OK, I too have been reading the threads and posts, but kept quiet until now. As a member here are my thoughts and observations:

- we are all passionate about our cars
- this is a truly brilliant forum
- I am glad to see that there are proposals to move forward (like Pete says)
- the past is the past, it is history - we should not ignore it, but learn from it to enhance the club
- there are lots of very good proposals to move forward - lets act now

This next bit may sound a bit 'wishy-washy' - but having read all the threads and seen how much energy, passion and pain there is out there - i can't help but think:

- this is a car forum, we come together, enjoy each others company and share knowledge - there are people in the world that do not have clean water to drink or food to eat - please grab a sense of perspective here
- it is not nice to see things get personal, but what is more disappointing is that no-one has said 'sorry' - we all make mistakes either individually or as a group

I truly hope this gets sorted, because this could/has started to effect the 'grass-roots' level of the club.

.....finally, let me end with this: I attended the recent Midlands get together a few weekends ago - about 16 cars, everyone chatting and sharing their experiences and providing help/guidance followed by a spot of lunch - this is what the club is about - lets not forget this.


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## Gazzer

LordG71 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> OK, I too have been reading the threads and posts, but kept quiet until now. As a member here are my thoughts and observations:
> 
> - we are all passionate about our cars
> - this is a truly brilliant forum
> - I am glad to see that there are proposals to move forward (like Pete says)
> - the past is the past, it is history - we should not ignore it, but learn from it to enhance the club
> - there are lots of very good proposals to move forward - lets act now
> 
> This next bit may sound a bit 'wishy-washy' - but having read all the threads and seen how much energy, passion and pain there is out there - i can't help but think:
> 
> - this is a car forum, we come together, enjoy each others company and share knowledge - there are people in the world that do not have clean water to drink or food to eat - please grab a sense of realism here
> - it is not nice to see things get personal, but what is more disappointing is that no-one has said 'sorry' - we all make mistakes either individually or as a group
> 
> I truly hope this gets sorted, because this could/has started to effect the 'grass-roots' level of the club.
> 
> .....finally, let me end with this: I attended the recent Midlands get together a few weekends ago - about 16 cars, everyone chatting and sharing their experiences and providing help/guidance followed by a spot of lunch - this is what the club is about - lets not forget this.


i i think am the only person who has apologised for my actions against Nick that night when i found out about John's eviction from the club and apprantly as admin from the ttf.


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## LordG71

sorry if I missed that Gazzer - difficult to follow everything - :lol:


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## tony_rigby_uk

well well well... I hsve no ides what I've missed... but I would just like to say that it does seem some member and commity members travel to slot of events. others do no.

I'm happy to say I've not noticed a spat between comitty at ADI this year but perhaps some people were not present. I have to say also the block track sessions at ADI best going to a tram museum as a general event. (no offence to who organised it) I did enjoy the war museum but if we are car related we should try and keep it that way... otherwise it's just an excuse for a day out.(which you can just do with your inner circle and not invite 800+ people to it. some of which have no shared interests with you other than the audi TT... like I said I liked war museum but trams? and i'm sure others would love trams and hate war... so it's swings and roundabouts but lets try and keep it related to our common interest.... OUR TT's..

I did see johns statement in absolute. and would say perhaps not the best way to announce it to members who have been quite (like me) seems like a lot has been going on during the usually quite winter months before show season starts.... perhaps not the best time of year to be making any decisions without the ability for people to meet up and chat... but if the committee didn't proof read what the editor wrote in the magazine that's also not great.. but if the committee didn't know I can see how hostility has come about... likewise I can see why john is so frustrated he's resorted to that....

I will also say some of the ttf events. (north vs south rolling road day) are great and should be something being organised by the ttoc.. I know that won't go down well but it is true...

so c'mon everyone lets keep it about the cars.... I have always said some committee members are not as welcoming and shall I say "mingling" with the general members as I would like to see.... it does seem very inner circle and elite. However it saddens me to see those that are great with new members and new faces are also the ones involved with whatever it is that has gone on....

Perhaps if more of the committee members had been at adi you could have called it the second meeting.. although 7-8months away from your anuual meeting perhaps more would come from a better bonded team...

asking volunteers to show up to 2 events a year isn't going to stop people from wanting the jobs they do... if it does I would question their commitment.

Thank you all for reading... I know it tony dribble again.. but still lets concentrate on our joint interest the club and our cars, and keep personal interests to the side line...I'm here for my TT and you lot who can't seem to get along.... and I respect you all so sort it out... !!11 c'mon you lot !!


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## glslang

Wow. Hadn't noticed any of this. The whole TTOC and TTF relationship is what it is and shouldn't really be a topic for division. The TTF owners will want to keep the community and run it as a business that it is, and the club lacks leverage and resources to create a competing community (because there isn't really one that'll shift).

Is in the interests of both TTOC and TTF to keep a relationship, but one that is largely symbiotic rather than integrating beyond distinction.

As for the individuals, John-H was outstanding when my article was accepted to AbsoluTTe and the magazine is top notch for a club one, so is a loss to TTOC.

I hope this gets sorted in a way that everyone can go on working together.


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