# Good-bye to the TT forum



## Guest (Aug 12, 2002)

Well I think the time has now come for me to say farewell to this forum, maybe it's my age (it probably is) but I can no longer tolerate the perverted ramblings of our member Vlastan. What starts off to be the most inocent of topics, he turns into offensive shite. If this was done in the flame room then not a problem because I hardly go there and so would not offend me nor my wife who will sometimes be next to me reading the threads with me.

I wanted to talk and learn about TT's and in my wisdom I thought that this forum would be a good starting point and so it was when I joined in February but it is becoming more and more of a sick joke.

If I want to learn and talk about anal sex and other related topics then I will look at other websites dedicated to this

So as they say "if you don't like whats on the tely, there is always the Off button and so that is what I am going to do - turn off.

Before I go, I would like to thank all you other members for helping me out with questions /problems I have had with my TT over the last few months. ;D

And to Vlastan - I think you really do have a problem but the worst of it is that you have ruined for me what was a huge amount of enjoyment and source of knowledge.

If you reply to this Vlastan - which I'm sure you will - remember that I won't be reading it.

Have a good life everyone and thanks for Beaulieu - that was fantastic

Graham


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## Wak (May 6, 2002)

NO m8, dont let one persons ramblings put you off and he is not alone! 

Ok, you may not read this but i suspect you might like to see the responses and may visit.

We are all adults and the world if full of different people and sometimes you have to tolerate and compromise to get some enjoyment out of the things in life.

True it may be easier to switch the whole dam thing off but for the majority of the forum its still informative and you'd lose far more good input than bad.

I too am sometimes suprised at how some threads lose track into adult ramblings but it takes 2 to tango and vlastan is not alone in when responses lead the threads on! If people didnt find his input amusing then they wouldnt respond.

Surely a compromise could be made, stick around and just switch off the threads that annoy you not the whole forum!

Hope to see you soon.
regards
Wak


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

Bit of a harsh response methinks?

At the end of the day, this is Our community. Our forum. By "Our" I mean those of us who frequent and post on here.

Communities such as this are generally self regulating and self policing, and as noone has really spoken out strongly against the views of any other "members" then i guess what has passed before has become "acceptable" even when to other members, a line has been crossed.

I'm of the view that the forum takes all sorts to make it tick. We have a vast technical base, a serious modding and cosmetic modding community, as well as people who just happen to share a common love for the car we drive or aspire to.

I met Nick (Vlastan) only this week, chatted for an hour or so, swapped some stories, and found him wholely inoffensive in real life.

In my 4000+ postings, I have at various times been guilty of crudeness, rudeness, crass and offensive behaviour, but like many others (including Vlastan) I also take the time to give something back - be it via help and advice, opinion, or something as simple as organising the odd smallish meet around Wales.

One wonders if Graham has made an effort to discuss the situation with one of the moderators before coming to his extremely "final" decision?

although Graham has now "left the building" his departure might well be a turning point in the use of the forum, the role of moderators and the standards of behaviour which are now considered acceptable..........

what is everyone's take on this?

personally I think it a major overreaction if (and only if) Graham has not saught assistance from Jae, Russell or Kevin ST. If he *has* saught assistance and they have decided not to take action in his favour, then essentially the "community" has spoken.....

Personally I find very few things "offensive"......... the one thing that I *DO* find personally distasteful is censorship.........


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## paulb (May 6, 2002)

Tim

If censorship is so bad, what powers do the moderators have? What benefit would there have been in him discussing his concerns with the moderators?

I agree that communities like this are generally self policing and that is what has happened. Graham finds some content offensive and so has policed it the only way he can, by not staying.

I think the danger is that some more vocal members of the forum may drive away others who do not want to be condemned for being critical.

We are a community but one in which many times reasonable requests have been ignored. I've posted a couple of times asking people to refrain from strong language on the main forum as it means I can't read it from work due to net policing software.

As all I ever read from work is the main car forum, and I catch up on the others after work I don't care what goes on in the others.

I think the biggest changing point in recent times on the forum was the introduction of the flame room. It started at a room to whinge about things but quickly evolved into a room for banter and "adult" content. This was the point where Jae felt obliged to but a health warning on the room about bad language.

Perhaps now is the time to put that warning on all rooms and acknowledge that the main forum is not primarily about cars but an internet social club.

Just my 2p...

Paul


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## Wak (May 6, 2002)

Just noticed his ID has gone and posted as Guest!

:-/


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

Paul,

without going down the whole "censorship" debate, what I usually find distasteful is that is is ONE PERSON censoring the views of another INDIVIDUAL.

Self policing and moderation are different in as much as instead of removing potentially inappropriate threads or replies, the forum itself (or its appointed moderators) can choose to speak out and allow the individual chance to explain their meaning or retract their post if they so wish.

Bottom line - the role of a moderator (in my opinion!) is simply to "question" (or lead the "questioning" by other forum members) as to whether XYZ is appropriate. This can be done privately or publicly.

Again, in my own opinion, if *I* had posted something which (for instance) Jae _personally_ found offensive, I would be horrified if he censored my comment based on his own personal beliefs - rather he publicly or privately questioned me about it (much prefer the former) and allowed others to express their views in a democratic manner. And if the majority (or significant minority) of other forum members found my posting to be offensive, unwarranted and or of otherwise dubious nature, then the "community" would have spoken, and I would have serious personal thought to make as to whether or not my original posting was actually as acceptable as I'd originally thought.

Not that I don't respect the views of A N Other individual, but in a Person A vs Person B scenario, where not everyone holds the same values and beliefs, Person A has the right not to be "censored" by Person B - rather it be left to the community as a whole to decide what is right.....

Of course Graham has the right simply to leave - I'm not questioning that. Its just that if his views do indeed match the majority (or significant minority) of the forum, then perhaps the sodding forum should actually speak its mind rather than allow threads of XYZ nature/subject to grow in size.

C'mon guys - I know it was on the flame room, but Vlastan's famous thread - you know, *THAT* one - was both the most viewed and posted to thread in the entire HISTORY of this place. Flame room or not, I think that says just as much about the people who have developed this community as Graham has done by leaving it - no, not that we all like *that*, but simply that we are prepared to enter into or simply view a discussion about it.............


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## TT (May 10, 2002)

"storm in a tea cup"? or what? - I'm afraid "adult" language is becoming more common in most walks of life these days - take TV for example - and yes, some people do find it offensive -me included when it's used in the wrong place - for example when young children are present - but we're all adults here - aren't we?


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## Wak (May 6, 2002)

I think Graham's point is the main forum used to be a serious technical and social discussion area which he liked.

I agree with him in that the main forum has degenerated a little with the frequency of threads turning from serious issues to both adult humour and then to top it off, specific bum related adult humour.

I didnt read the entire famous thread, it was too long!  but the length of views and posts points to a number of people interested in the topic and some willing to speak up, some offended, probably a fair few who wouldnt normally speak of a "taboo" subject and too polite to speak up so prefer to compromise into the discussion!

Having also met vlastan I think he's a fun guy and is respectful of the partners and kids around us so I have no problems with him socially and hopefully he has no issues with me. (even after these commenst) ;D

Personally I dont mind the adult humour, and will compromise into a topic. I feel there are a fair few that do this but the frequency of bum humour is wearing a little thin for a few people and more so for Graham.

The trend here is one similar to the old VIZ comics if anyone has ever heard of them...I'm now afraid of mentioning exhausts, tail pipes, rear ends, any thing in posts that may be picked up and turned into an anal joke, just to keep the threads serious! :

I dont mind adult humour, would prefer to see less of it on the main forum or at very least a little more variety in topic.  As most people dont speak up to be offended and join in the topic the implication is its acceptable by the majority. Not so for Graham though!

If you have an issue then speak up, compromise, hold your peace, switch off the threads that you dont like but dont keep quiet and dump the whole forum over it. It maybe unfair comment to Graham but I dont think he spoke up over this and probably felt the acceptance of it by others was an indication the social circle here didnt fit into his expectations. :-/


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

I'm quite frankly shocked  99% of the time, any oddball threads are confined to the flame room and the "Anal Sex" & threads containing very strong language ARE in the most part confined to the Flame Room.

I'm sorry, but this forum is not just a place to learn more about TT's and share the pleasure of ownership, how often can one talk about "Optimax, Bose, Which Oil, Dropping Windows & Pulling to the left etc. Surely this forum is a community for owners & enjoyers of the TT to share whatever they want & i fully believe that the forum more than achieves this.

If Vlastan's or others postings were offensive to everyone, then why are they so popular and get so many replies? I'm sorry, but if i can read through a non TT related thread and end up pissing myself laughing, then that is a good thing, if i find it too offensive (has not happened yet) then i'll stop reading it.

Just my 2p worth, but LoveiTT, i think your actions are too drastic and a little biased


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## bash-the-monkey (Jun 5, 2002)

er...........did I miss a thread? which one was so offensive that a member feels that he needs to leave?

The banter that most people get up to in here is no more worse than being in a pub.

Bash
www.bashthemonkey.com


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## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

It is extremely sad that anyone feels they have to leave our site due to the content. :'(

I do tend to lean towards Graham's view on this.

Primarily this site is about cars. Due to the community spirit, which I think really enhances this site, additional forums were generated enabling people to discuss off-topic subjects.

I don't think there is a censorship issue here as this site will allow anyone to post anything (within reason) but I do think that there is a place for these things.

The main forum goes through phases and at the moment seems to be moving towards on open forum where anything gets posted. It's not there yet but that's the feeling I get. I am concerned that the purpose of having separate forums is being lost.

If people could keep on topic and be sensitive and considerate that this is a car forum then I think Graham would be back like a shot. How many other people has the forum lost that we don't know about because they feel similarly? - We just don't know.

I think the site would serve everyones interests if it was used the way it was intended.

On the subject of language, I agree with PaulB. It has been requested many times that people refrain from swearing on the main forum as otherwise members may be unable to access it. Is this really too much to ask? It's not that I am sensitive to swearing - I often curse and shout, etc but never on the forum as I feel I need to show some consideration for others.

*If we use each forum for it's original purpose and keep swearing out of the car related forums then surely we end up with a happy, useful and enjoyable site. Are we really unable to do that so that everyone benefits? ???*


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## coupe-sport (May 7, 2002)

It has got worse...

Try Audi-Sport.net - a car forum without the crap


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## Monique (Jun 11, 2002)

Scotty,

Hit the nail on the head.

Interesting that Mr Vlastan has posted over 2000 times and does not own a TT.

Weird.

Must be one hell of an expert.


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

So posting here is restricted to people with TTs now is it? Jeez.....

And its also restricted to "experts" as well?

C'mon, accept a little diversity here for God's sake!

Although I own a TT, I'm far from "expert". WAK didn't own a TT for at least 1000 posts. Anything wrong with that?

We also have a number of ex TT owners posting here, aspiring owners and also people who may NEVER own one............

IMHO if you want to restrict this place to "owners" and/or "experts" only, you'll lose 90% of the content, 100% of the community spirit and have VERY little left to talk about.

Go right ahead.... I won't be staying.


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## thorney (May 15, 2002)

I can't say I agree with Graham but he has acted in his own best interests and informed everyone of these - admirable.

To save this thread itself turning into a slagging match can I suggest the options:

1. Moderators to become more 'active' in moving or even deleting threads if they or the webmaster receives a complaint. (I've no idea how it works on this forum but on the BM3W.co.uk one, where I'm a moderator, it is my responsibility to ensure that any thread at least loosely adheres to the topic). Funnily enough I've received a complaint 

2. Forum members exercise a little more self control and try to avoid swearing in the main forum and keep threads there to the topic. However, posting humerous comments on a thread doesn't necessarily mean the topic is changed, just little self control of tunring the whole thing around.

I'm actually in favour of self policing and agree with others in that Graham should have complained before turning off (I don't know what happened).

I happen to think this is one of the best forums around; busy, fun and informative I hope that one persons complaint won't leave everyone scared to post and we start to lose what we've actually got.


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## KevinST (May 6, 2002)

As one of the few "Moderators" of this site, what powers do I have?? I can edit posts, move them to a different "room" or delete them copletely. However, having these powers is on thing, using them in a community where I am well known and (hopefully) respected is something different entirely.
This forum used to be self moderating, I feel we had an unwritten code of conduct as to what was acceptable, and what was not... do we have that now? I don't think so. 
Users are probably too scared to post that something is unacceptable without fear of being shouted down, I as a moderator can't do anything as there are no usage rules of this site (something that I will now take up with Jae and Russell), and I'm unwilling to impose my own views of what is acceptable onto others.
To be very honest - I almost quit this forum a couple of months ago - I had the post written down, spell checked etc etc. I changed my mind because after reading and re-reading the post several times I decided that the loss to me was greater that the problems the site was causing me. The problem is that this site isn't just about TT's - it is more like a pub where people meet to discuss lots of different issues - some you'll like - others you wont.

Going forward - if ANYONE has any problem with a thread on any of the forums, let me, Jae or Russell know befre you decide to call it a day on the site. At least give us the oppertunaty to sort things out.


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## TJS (May 6, 2002)

I have some sympathy with Grahams viewpoint.

"Censorship" is, ultimately, self imposed. If the flame room is not your scene you don't go there. You don't open a thread which you belive is offensive, eventually you dont bother to log on to the site.

I feel saddend that the efforts of Jae, Russell and Mel in forming the TTOC and setting up the site could be tarnished by seemingly offensive subjects that have absolutely nothing to do with Audi TT's. I have recently wondered what new TT owners think when they discover the site and log on for the first time only to be confronted the subjects Graham alludes to. How many choose to log off permanently ?

TJS


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## thorney (May 15, 2002)

Agree with that. IF a moderator receives a complaint THEN he/she can act.

If people don't complain then the overiding assumption is that there is nothing wrong?!


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## KevinST (May 6, 2002)

One other quick point, and maybe something that we shoudl all keep in mind when posting...

On the front page of this forum, it reads...

*On the 22nd November, 2000, this was recognised in a Press article in AutoCar Magazine

"The club has a great website, which is the sixth most popular Audi site worldwide" 
Karen Durey, AutoCar Magasine*

I wonder if we would want a motor magazine to review the forum in it's current state... and if theye did, would it be described in the same terms now??


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2002)

> Agree with that. IF a moderator receives a complaint THEN he/she can act.
> 
> If people don't complain then the overiding assumption is that there is nothing wrong?!


Acting on complaints can lead to people with minority viewpoints censoring those in the greater consensus though. If 99.9% of readers don't mind the content but .1% complains is that reason enough to remove or edit something. I can't agree with that.

I think if anything was to be done then it would need to start with a clear definition of what content is allowable and moderators should edit/delete posts on that basis rather than from complaints.

Before doing anything you really need to ask how many people are unhappy with the current status quo. If these discussions are due to a minority in dissatisfaction then surely the only logical thing to do would be nothing and let them decide whether they wish to remain.


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2002)

> *Karen Durey, AutoCar Magasine*
> 
> I wonder if we would want a motor magazine to review the forum in it's current state... and if theye did, would it be described in the same terms now??


Not really sure if I care about the viewpoint of a magazine journalist who works for a rag that can't even spell magazine.


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## thorney (May 15, 2002)

So we're agreed then 

I personally think the forum is great as it is and have no problems with the content or the style but maybe there are some who aren't as happy and a set of rules established/comminicated.

Mind you, this in the internerd, surely we're beyond rules


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

It's always very sad if someone decides to leave for whatever reason :'( I don't like, or read, every thread on this forum but find most of it very enjoyable. The treads I don't like, I take one quick glance and dump them: my personal choice.
I know of other forums where users will get banned, after an initial warning, if they don't refrain from using offensive language. I'm not quite sure where I stand on this: I don't like bad language. But then again, I have the choice not to read certain postings.
I had a quarrel with one of the forum users lately for posting something he shouldn't have done. We could sort it out via e-mail and the posting was changed very quickly 
Do we need censorship? I don't think so. Our whole life is regulated enough.
Think about it Graham: 99.9% of the users are brill  If you disagree with certain postings: don't read them


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## bash-the-monkey (Jun 5, 2002)

I've been on this site for a relatively short time - and apart from the humour and 'light-hearted' ribbing, information that people have requested has 9 times out of 10, been answered. And its been a usefully answered.

Unlike other forums - for example, look at something like an 'overclockers' forum - the senior member act like gods and behave much worse than everyone else.

I liked that fact that the people here are not arrogant, take and give a bit of banter and most importantly are willing to help their fellow TT drivers (or non-drivers as the case may be )

The actual nature of the forum is condusive to a bit of banter - it can get out of hand, but IMHO, here we have a good balance.

Apart from the information traded (group-buys etc) there is a social aspect involved too. You cannot take everything seriously all the time.

Bash
www.bashthemonkey.com

PS - I will get offended if someone makes me do another serious post - my reputation will be ruined at this rate. ;D


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

Although I have some sympathy with Graham on swearing on threads other than on the Flame Forum - where there is adequate warning - the words cutting off nose to spite face come to mind.

Just ignore what you don't like. Threads disappear quickly unless they are interesting to folk. That is the ultimate arbiter for the Forum.

As for discriminating on basis of TT ownership or expert ranking, well how elite is that and contrary to the spirit of interest forums?

Take a few weeks off. Lurk and then carry on.

I am suspicious of grandiose annoucements and exit staements which may smack of childish attention seeking to some. Relax or become a moderator...... ;D


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## thorney (May 15, 2002)

OMG, I just noticed I've become a senior forum member....ooh the power, the control, you're all my little puppy dogs now.

Oh, hang on, I'm as powerless as a Nevada Gaming Commissioner and I'm now hijacking this thread. Someone dock me my star. ;D


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2002)

I agree that it is a shame that people feel the need to leave the forum, for whatever reason.

I have been a member of the forum since April 2001, about two months before I bought my first TT. From the first moment on I was greeted with top class information and friendliness.

Some of the most helpful information that I was given was by one of the forum's recognised (and sometimes unfairly knocked IMHO) jokers. This information saved me thousands of pounds which I would have otherwise spent had I not found the forum.

Then, after only 3 weeks of ownership my car developed a major fault and went back to Audi for 7 weeks. During this time, the members here provided me with feedback and information about the dealership, told me who to complain to when things didn't go right. So once again the forum was very helpful.

Premier supplied both my first car and then my second TTR, a top class outfit who I have gladly recommended to people here who have looked into TT ownership - so I like to think that I have played my part in the ethos behind the forum, by passing on a little knowledge of my own.

And lastly but certainly not least, this place introduced me to the most important thing to me in my life (no I don't mean a TTR).

It is a shame that people view the forum's change as a bad thing.. I think that it has become less formal and that is a good thing. Yes, people should probably stick to posting certain topics in the flame room, I agree in the same way I agree that you wouldn't let your 10 year old watch the Playboy Channel on Sky because you know what the content will be. But, please don't start putting this place down, it is a friendly, informative site where you can still get information if you need it, as well as allowing you to voice opinions...

Just my 2p's but one I had to add...

Martin


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2002)

Thorney a "senior member"....run away...


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## Wak (May 6, 2002)

I actually dont mind the swearing where its used for humour and adds some character to a point! 
e.g.


> WAK didn't own a TT for at least 1000 posts. Anything wrong with that?


bolloxs that JampoTT I had plenty of TT Toys!  ;D

But Graham seems more upset about the Adult humour thats besieged most posts! Which in my mind is almost 100% anally biased and getting tiresome...I aint gonna winge about it and leave....just ignore it or add comment....or simply carry on....I still get good enjoyment from the forum.


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## vernan (May 27, 2002)

My personal opinion is that nothing should be censored.

I know that I can get a bit philosophical about things, like shopping centres, but I believe that forums are communities, and the dynamics of them change like real communities do. There are always people who will think that life was better in the old days, that the tone of things are lowered by certain individuals etc. But if you don't check the forums for a couple of days, there are hundreds of new posts. Would that really be the case if topics were limited to car cleaning, suspension mods and tips for negotiating with dealers? No, because TTs are part of our lives, common bond that introduces us to others who we can interact with, not the be all and end all. The other things we do SHOULD enter into what we post here.

The forum has two distinct uses - a massively useful repository of information about the cars, and a meeting place. I'm not likely to enter debates about my or other people's sex lives because that's not my bag, baby. But I enjoy the banter of people like Bash because it's funny and clever more often than not.

We just need an agreement that anything a bit dodgy is kept to the flame or off topic rooms. Enter at your peril, but you're welcome if you do. Oh, and we have indicators by message titles too - why not have one for "not for the faint hearted", like a cross or something, and people can exercise their right to choose.

I hope noone leaves for whatever reason. More power to all of us.


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## Carlos (May 6, 2002)

I am in favour of a small amount of censorship. My view is any offensive language used outside of the flame room should be removed by a moderator. The offending words, and we all use them occasionally, can be easily defined, and everyone can be made aware of whats acceptable.

If this isn't the majority view, I think we need to do a bit more policing. I don't think bad language is acceptable on any of the forums except the flame room.

I agree with KevinST, I think the reputation of both the TT forum and the TTOC is tarnished. However I think it (flame room) should still exist as I think its funny. I have occasionally contributed, and used bad language myself. My suggestion (without much thought admittedly) is this: why not remove the flame room link from the front page, make it members only and only advertise the url in an FAQ, or by email to new members when they join the forum? That way it can still exist, without casual first timers being one click away from *that* thread and its ilk.


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## Chris_TTC_546 (May 7, 2002)

I sort-of-see what Graham is on about. We have different forum's to suit different need's and content taste's. What is free-for-all on the Flame Room is not suitable for the main TT forum

Different channels/forums will have different audiences and therefore appropriate behaviour should be observed.

What has started to happen is that what starts as a perfectly ordinary question posted on the main forum dives off into subject matter more suited to the Flame Room. My wife reads the main TT Forum as is not interested or impressed with what is going on there.

It is not enough to say that if you don't like it then don't read it - simply because if you read a "what seems interesting" topic first only to be confronted with what then becomes inappropriate - and this is on the main forum - it becomes a Catch-22.

I like the whole site, and it's current layout suits the majority of the people who come here. I just believe that if I want to post a question or share information on the main TT Forum, then the responses should not involve subject matter not related, especially if it might be deemed inappropiate. I'm all for a bit of light banter, but I would suggest that some of the recent banter is unsuitable for that audience. Some of the banter is very amusing and clever but also appropriate

I have no objection to that type of banter or subject matter being in the Flame Room - because I know that's where I might expect to see it - but I do not expect to see it in genuine on-topic posts.

I don't advocate censorship - just a little thought and consideration for others.

The ******** is a community and a bit like going into a parade of shops. I can go into the main Audi dealer and get info I want (hopefully!). I can walk into the sex shop down the road and get something entirely different. However, I wouldn't expect my Audi dealer to talk to me about anal sex when I ask him for a DV valve. (Analogy)


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## Howard (May 7, 2002)

I think it's a sad day for the forum when someone who is serious about his TT leaves because of the increase in offensive postings.

The forum has changed :-[


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

> I think it's a sad day for the forum when someone who is serious about his TT leaves because of the increase in offensive postings.


but I think the crux of the matter is, YES, perhaps it is a sad day. But if you weren't offended or put off BEFORE Graham decided to leave, why should you feel any differently now?

And if you WERE offended, then why aren't you all speaking up and helping this place to self-police itself?

*shrug*


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## paulb (May 6, 2002)

Quotes (all from me)



> I have also mentioned on another thread that my access from work to the flame room has been stopped by our web police software due to language. Since we got the flame room, people seem to have started to swear more on the main forum and I am worried that I will not be able to view it during the day soon. Can I ask you to consider reserving swearing for the flame room so as not to limit my (and possibly other's) enjoyment of the forum?





> Yours is the first use of the F word I have seen on the main forum. As I said, I can't read the flame room from work so wait until I get home for that one. There may be other posts with similar language, but I don't read everything, only things that look interesting or are from people who post useful information.





> Can you please try to watch your language on the main forum. I already find that access to the flame room is blocked from work by our net monitoring stuff and I don't want to lose access to the main forum.


I did try to help the self policing but with no success, Maybe my views are out of sync. with the majority of the users. If that is the case, maybe I should follow Graham's example and retire graciously.

I don't want to sound like an old fuddy duddy but in the days of the old forum, off topic was for just that and the TT Forum was to talk about TT's. There was quite a community who stayed largely resident in OT, which was fine. They had their fun and it was great to dive into. However, they did not try to contaminate the rest of the forum.

As I said before, I view the flame room as the beginning of this change. I support the flame room and even pop in from time to time.

I would favour a charter for the main forum. I would also favour stronger moderation to keep threads on topic and relevant.

I also agree with James. I seem to be spending more time on Audi-Sport.net. Maybe that is where the real car enthusiasts will migrate to (as part of JampoTT's self policing - those with a car interest can go elsewhere!)

Paul


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2002)

well my eyes are killing me now  you lot need to chill out a little bit my point is in the last 6 months how many people have joined and how many people have gone you can't please them all :-/ :-/

Do not let the site go boring

Graham www.straightheads.com is the best place for you

Kill all minis ( am I allowed to say that)

*^@~^Â£[email protected]** thats better


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

> JampoTT's self policing - those with a car interest can go elsewhere!


Paul, I respect your use of quotes, but then you completely paraphrase what *I* was saying!!

I've already stated my case FOR moderation, in case you didn't really read the full text of my post (and who can blame you!) but simply against random and blatant A vs B censorship.

Of course we have a car interest. Of course *I* have a car interest.

I have, however, made and continued several friendships and acquaintances on from this forum, and this is every bit as important as the technical element as far as I am concerned.

Yes, I'm fully aware - I *do* generally have an opinion about most things, and am never shy to speak it. But I never suggested that all you folk with a "car interest" should simply bugger off........ c'mon, play fair! 

As for the underlying issues - i too would have a slight "issue" if something completely inappropriate was posted in the "Main" section. But I'm also well aware that I'm not easily offended, so perhaps its not right to judge the place using my own benchmarks.

However, a small amount of swearing (less, for instance, than I regularly hear the local 5 year olds come out with!) certainly does not constitute something which, unless I'm very sadly mistaken, the majority of the forum readers would find bordering on offensive.

Is it the swearing? Is it the sarcasm? Is it the complete wandering off-topic? Whatever, in my hunble and very honest opinion, I don't think on the whole that ANY of it detracts from (or waters down) either the helpful advice or technical knowledgebase which should be the cornerstone of the "Main" topic area....... in fact it adds to it. I'm sure there are many other folk who would simply not visit this place if it were a sterile, "funless" place - and their opinion and ideas would be forever lost to the remainder of the TT community...........


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## IanWest (May 7, 2002)

I feel that maybe people should step back and actually consider whether this is getting blown out of proportion.

I for one find the forum interesting in it's entirety but the problem is that we all want different things from it. I'm sure that we have all enjoyed the banter after a stressful day and at other times just want to find out some technical information and then leave again.

Surely even you diehard tech people want some amusement at times and after all man cannot live on Optimax alone. How many people here have not looked at THAT thread. Very few I doubt. The title was clear about the content and could have been ignored. Please don't let this site become a Haynes manual.

As my dealer told me, I wasn't buying a car, I was buying a lifestyle, to a certain extent he is right, the TT is all about impractical fun and has faults, just like this site but it wouldn't put me off owning the car.

Interesting though that Vlastan is absent from the main site today?!


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## bash-the-monkey (Jun 5, 2002)

I suggest...

1. a group hug
2. a group chill out session
3. a group 'non-anal' adult fun session (does that offend anyone? )

Lets just take a moment, we're begining to forget how to percieve correctly........

Take a deep breath........hold it.........

.................

..................

and relax. Hey - its not so bad is it? Do we really need to be still on about this? probably not.

Think about this thread - someone has left - they didn't like the forum. Do _you_ like the forum? Are you offended?

Yes - -then either follow suit (IMHO - overreaction :-/)

No - - continue to be part of the forum - it's informative and fun. One thread about anal sex isn't going to kill you. 

Compared to many other forums, we are close to being the couple who lived next door to Richard Briars and the lovely Miss Kendal in The Good Life (go on you all fancied her didn't you? ;D) - we know about all sorts of sordid things, but are not part of them.    - I bet next door were twice as dirty with the curtains drawn!! ;D ;D ;D

So, have a smile - a retropective moment of silence for departed chums - and get on with it.

Bash
www.bashthemonkey.com

PS its a sad day when i have to be the voice of reason..........  ;D


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## bash-the-monkey (Jun 5, 2002)

oh........and DEATH TO MINIS ;D  

Bash
www.bashthemonkey.com


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## Emmy (May 7, 2002)

heh, Nick isnt absent - he just posted on the PVW thread *duckz* 

Anyway... I think I've missed the plot... the posts havent been *that* offensive, have they?? I myself never use offensive language (I never swear - even IRL) - but I dont find the posts that do use such language offensive. Each to their own. If we found bad language offensive, we wouldnt speak to most people (almost everyone I know swears - including almost everyone from here!).

However, if the moderators (and perhaps the community) agreed, we could probably code in a module that detected swear/offensive words from a "bad word dictionary" and rejects posts in real time (i.e. when u press submit, it tells you to edit your post again) - only for the main TT Forum tho, of course. That's not exactly moderation, as a computer cannot suppress a view - and it allows you to correct your 'oversight'. If the rules are applied to everyone (and put in the T's & C's), then we cant have any argument about censorship - if you want to use offensive language, you can post it in the flame room 

Personally, I'm not bothered about the language - and the forum is an excellent resource. Graham has indeed, in my view, shot himself in the foot! With all the major tuning companies & magazines, as well as Audi themselves, monitoring the forum - this is truly a unique place! 

Shash.


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

I feel that most of the points raised in this post are good and as they are peoples opinions, then they are totally valid.

I for one think that the entire forum is excellent. If i want to talk TT or ask a TT related question, then i go to the TT Forum, if i want to hear about a forthcoming TT related event or read up on one, then i go to the Events Forum, if i want to ask a non TT related question or just read up on other useful stuff that i may find useful, then i go to the Off Topic forum and if i want a good laugh, vent some anger or some grown up humour then i go to the flame room. Not totally sure what the Owners Club forum gives us ???

We are all adults and this forum is a community. If all we did is spoke about TT's all day, then other people would think we were all Anally Retentive (scuse the pun) and i for one agree with freedom of speach. If someone does not like something, then i for one am not gonna force it upon them.

Just my opinion, but lets not get hung up. The membership is increasing daily, so the majority of people must enjoy the forums content. ;D


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2002)

all the time that we have spent on this topic we could have killed about 3/4 mini drivers

lets get on with it.

bash is already started to talk normal and we dont want that do we..................................
;D ;D ;D ;D


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## paulb (May 6, 2002)

Tim

I think you have misinterpreted what I meant by 'JampoTT's self policing' and I apologise for my lack of clarity.

What I was trying to say is that in an unmoderated forum (and I think that this is, in reality, an unmoderated forum) then the only choice people have if they don't like it is to leave. Self policing means that if you don't like it lump it.

The quotes were to show that I have tried to ask people to refrain from bad language in the main forum as it limits my ability to view the forum. This has been disregarded and ignored. Therefore, it gets more likely that this entire site will be blocked by my IT police. At that point, I too will find somewhere else to spend my time and withdraw from this forum.

Language only bothers me because of the policing software. I'm a big boy now and can take a bit of swearing. I'm just using it as an example to highlight that self policing (in the form of polite requests to other users) has limited effectiveness.

What bothers me? It is not the sarcasm or the swearing per se, but the fact that certain people have made it their mission to try and corrupt any innocent comment into something sexual (its like being in the school yard). A number of people have said on this thread (and I share the view) that they now have to be more careful how they word their thread in case it degenerates into inuendo land.

So, on the constructive side, I would favour:

* stronger moderation
* more fora - a technical and tuning one for example. I know this is controversial but it could allow people to focus their efforts on what interests them
* terms of reference for each group which the moderators can use to guide them

If I didn't like the ToR, then I could leave. That is my democratic right!

I think the big issue is that if I read a thread about oil coolers, I don't want to find it changing into a thread on sex through the infantile games of a few individuals who appear to be trying to 'look clever' to some of their friends.

I too have met many interesting people in the past and recognise this as a community.

I have made my suggestions on the way forward. Lots of other people have expressed views that it has changed for the worse in recent times and I have tried to consider these.

Paul


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## Mackem (May 22, 2002)

Similar to Graham, I almost packed it in a couple of months ago but decided not to. Lets face it, the forum has gone downhill recently, it's no joke when my kid's are looking over my shoulder and these "funny" animated gifs are all over the place.

I did ask Jae to take one of them off and he kindly obliged. Surely the Moderators need to moderate the use of needless bad language and un-funny pictures.......this forum's about cars, not all that other stuff!


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2002)

[Do not let the site go boring

looks like it going to go that way


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

This forum is not just about cars, its a community brought about by a common love of the Audi TT. We all have one thing in common, we own a TT, like TT's or are awaiting delivery of a TT.

At least 2 people here have met partners through this forum which again re-iterates that its more of a community raher than just an encyclopedia of TT facts and issues. How long can one just talk about cars or ask questions about there car? I find some areas on the forum useful and other areas very funny so i get plenty from the forum.


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## FS_CRAM_225 (Jun 25, 2002)

Goodbyeeee, Godbyeeee,wipe a tear from your ear, Godbyeee ( or something like that )

I have only actively participated in 2 forums, this one ( only recently ) and one of the motleyfool re property investment, and I saw a similar thing happening. Pople have a common interest, get together in Forum, enjoy banter with one another, start talking completely off topic, Some get the hump cos they just want to stick to the subject, Board starts fighting, Board splits into 2 camps...

In my limited opinion a forum appears no different to a group of schoolfriends, initially united by a common situation, but ultimately doomed if the personalities clash. Maybe.

But hopefully not this board , It seems to have the right mix, not to technical or up its own exit hole....

now thats where it all started wasnt it...

my 2 riyals worth

Fat Steve


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## TT (May 10, 2002)

Crumbs! - What a load of boring twaddle - come on guys (and galls) get a life! The odd swear word, the occasional off thread comment never harmed anyone - like it or not, it's all around us, we live in the real world, lets not turn into a load of wingers.

This forum is not perfect, but it's as good as they come - letâ€™s not change it - not at all.


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## clived (May 6, 2002)

I'm not going to get into quoting myself of others here, but a couple of things seem obvious to me here:

1) A number of people have suggested that if people don't want to see bad language on the main forum, they should speak up. I think it has been demonstrated now that people have spoken up or are doing so now and have some good reasons (wives, kids, work-monitoring etc.) for asking to keep the main forum clean.

2) Nobody really minds what is posted anywhere else - off topic and flame room - after all that's what those forums were set up for, or at least it's reasonable that they've become that

So, the question is this - is it really so much to ask to try and keep the main forum clean - this doesn't mean no humour, just a little respect for for whole group who use the forum. I've heard the word "community" used a lot here, but I don't think that has to mean that everyone just runs riot - surely a community has regard for everyone within it. The great thing about the forum is that there are parts where pretty much any sort of behaviour is fine, which means that no-one is being asked to stop contributing whatever they have to offer - just keep it to somewhere appropriate.

I think it is pretty poor that people who have helped craft this forum over time are now feeling like they no longer recognise the place because of the action and attitude of some (mostly newer) members. Whilst I've seen the argument "if you don't like it, leave", the flip side to this could be "if you didn't like what the forum was before you arrived, please don't come and spoil it for everyone else".

So, show of hands? Who thinks that at least trying to keep the more adult humour to off topic and the flame room, therefore allowing everyone to keep enjoying the main forum is a fair way forward?

Clive


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## David_A (May 7, 2002)

Are there really that many threads hijacked by a comment so bad you wouldn't want anyone to see it? Not that I can think of.

These are in a minority, its just like most things in life - you only tend to remember the things you don't like rather than all the good stuff.

Obscure comments, the odd swear word, odd perversions are all ok in my book - racial, sexist, ageist abuse is not and as far as I have seen * is not * tolerated here.

Keep it the way it is in my view.


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## clived (May 6, 2002)

David,

With all due respect (no sarcasm intended) do you really think you've been a user of the forum for long enough to make "keep it the way it is" comments? 

If we'd have kept the forum the way it was say six months ago, I'm sure we wouldn't be having this conversation!

Clive


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## paulb (May 6, 2002)

I have repeatedly (and again in this thread) provided a reason why swearing is undesirable in the main forum for some members. And still I hear how there's no harm and implications that people that are against this are old fuddy duddys.

I agree with W7PMC that this is a community that is not just about cars. That's why Jae gave us off topic, events and the flame room!

As for meeting partners, I can think of more typical places than a car forum on the Internet. 

I personally think this is the time to get the moderators opinion.

Paul


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## pette (May 7, 2002)

Damn,

I go away for the weekend and all hell breaks loose...


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## David_A (May 7, 2002)

I've been using the forum for over two years pre crash etc - found it very useful prior to the purchase of my car which is now over 20 months old!

I don't really think the forum has changed that much - yes a more diverisified population has increased the type and frequency of replies, but deep down it's well meaning, humerous (depending where your're funny bone lies) , and friendly but _not_ harmful to anyone - that is stamped out. Ignore the bits you don't like and enjoy what we've all got thats all guys & gals.

David


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## clived (May 6, 2002)

David, obviously I take back my question over your length of time on the forum - obviously you've been around for some time.

Given that, i'm pretty surprised that you don't think it has changed that much. It is a shame that the "old" forum isn't available to view at the moment, as I think a short while viewing old threads would be a useful reminder to those of us who have been around a while, and might help explain to some of the newer faces why some of us really think the forum has changed.

If the site hadn't changed, why was there a need to introduce the flame room, in an attempt to channel bad language? I think that may have actually backfired, by giving the impression that the sort of posting originally seen in the flame room was acceptable on the whole forum.



> not harmful to anyone - that is stamped out.


I don't agree - Graham thought it was harmful enough to his family to decide to leave. Paul finds it harmful to his ability to read the forum. If you read all the posts in this threads a number of people believe that the site as a whole would be better if we kept the truly adult content to just 2 of the 3 forums.

Clive


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

Pete,
no time to take hols you know Â :-/ Â Are you going to show me the baby on the 21st/22nd Sept then? I'm dying to see it and play with it Â  Â Please Â


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## bash-the-monkey (Jun 5, 2002)

AHAHAHHHRHHRHRHRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!

BEGINING TO BLEED FROM EYES, EARS AND OTHER PLACES -

LET IT GO PEOPLE!!!

If not, I'll have to tape this section off, whilst wearing a policemans uniform saying "go home folks........nothing to see here.......move along"

Ask yourself this:

1 - do you want me to start dressing up as one of the Village People (i don't like doing it - but you guys are forcing me!!!!)

2 - lets stop talking about what if, was and wasn't and get back to our normal lives people.........

ALL OF YOU (must shout this bit as its important )

GO HOME AND MAKE LOVE TO A LOVED ONE IN WAYS YOU NEVER DREAMED BEFORE. Its the only way to forget this 'silly' little thread. [Dons flame suit]

I really don't like being the sanest person in the room.

Bash
www.bashthemonkey.com

PS a 'loved one' does not include any sort of prize vegetable - you know who you are.......


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## S-Line (May 6, 2002)

why slag off a forum member then run away!

We are all adults and can turn off the tv if we don't like wot we are watching, we don't understand loveitt problem. If you don't like what you are reading then don't read it.

;D LONG LIVE VLASTAN ;D

Rod & Clair


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## StunTTman (May 7, 2002)

My personal views are as follows:

1. Â Generally speaking, I agree with the proposal for more active moderation within the main TT Forum board. Â I think that a few threads recently have quickly "deviated" from topic and I understand the viewpoint of those who feel troubled by this (although personally I am not, but I do sometimes find myself wondering why the particular user has chosen to post his/her comment). Â

2. Â I wouldn't want to see more forums (or fora, as paulb correctly states ) added. Â Four plus the TTOC one - if it exists - is enough already.

3. Â I consider myself to be a car enthusiast and a funny bloke (but then I've always been modest ). Â I love the content of this forum on both counts and personally find audi-sport.net somewhat more sterile and far less vibrant. Â

4. Â I too have met vlastan and have also offered him accommodation at my house. Â I wouldn't do that if I thought his behaviour was offensive or inappropriate. [Modified to add - you have to remember that he is Greek, and as such probably has a different inhibition threshold compared to most Brits. But( ) the forum is an international site and so we should respect these national/cultural differences and not seek to impose guidelines without careful consideration]Â

5. Â If I was to meet a partner via this site I wouldn't be complaining 

Stunters


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

Good comments, Dan
A shame you can't access the TTOC forum :'( which does exist (I know Club Audi is great but being a TTOC member is also great Â ;D ) : I said the same there:
I met Niko (Vlastan) a number of times since Feb (Woburn) and only know him as a nice and decent chap. And he, his wife and dog (ppplease don't take me up on this Niko! that's the dog bit) are very welcome in the Unwin house Â  Different cultures, different ways of life! No probs there Â 
I think we should all go back to the day-to-day issues!
(but I still think all the sex talk is more suited to the flame room, not being funny I hope)
That's "the other Dan"


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## Major Audi Parts Guru (May 7, 2002)

I'm probably the only person on this forum who doesn't own a TT and probably never will,the reason i like to post here is because i love my Audi's


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## paulb (May 6, 2002)

Rod and Clair (although I'm guessing Clair by the posting). I don't think Graham slagged off Vlastan, just highlighted that his approach to posting was not inline with Graham's. Therefore Graham has left. Simple.

Turning off TV is easier. Finding a thread has changed halfway through reading it is much more difficult to ignore. I think this is the point. If you don't like the flameroom, don't go in. I have no problem with that. However, I would also add that if you have nothing about TTs to add to the TT Forum, stay in the Flame Room and OT...

I don't think that anyone is arguing that Vlastan is not a decent post, just that some of his posts (and others) are potentially inappropriate to a car forum. There are other rooms for this...

Paul


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## clived (May 6, 2002)

> so we should respect these national/cultural differences


Surely respect has to be a two way thing. If there had been a little more respect for the existing culture and community of the forum, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I don't think this is a personal crusade against Vlastan either by the way. Sure, he may have a number of posts that are good examples of the way threads have quickly degenerated into topics I wouldn't want my daughter to read, but for me this is more about the general culture of the main forum, not any individual. The assumptions that I keep se being made ("we're all adults", "nobody minds", "if you don't like it you can go away") are all either factually or ethically flawed in my opinion - we know that some people _used_ to like to share the forum with their families, some people do clearly mind and once you've read a post with adult content, you can't unread it - and why should long established members be effectively hounded from the forum because some users never took the time to understand the _pre-existing_ culture.

And I'm finding the "just let it go" comments a little patronising now. One the one hand those who don't like what the forum has become are being criticised for not speaking up (for all the difference that seems to make, as we can currently see) and on the other hand they are being told to keep quiet. IF YOU DON'T WANT TO READ ABOUT IT, WHY DON'T YOU LEAVE THE FORUM?

(and no, of course I don't want you to leave the forum, but I suspect you might have resented the suggestion...? As do all those who've been told to put up or shut up re adult content.)


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## thorney (May 15, 2002)

Ok, we're up to 7 pages with no fresh argument or new points.

We've seen several posts from people who are offended/have access problems due to swearing and we've have posts from people who say don't let the site get boring. As no-one has actually said they consider swearing a positive attribute we can 'solve' this by adopting two self policed rules.

1. Avoid swearing in the main forum - not hard.
2. Recognise the main forum is about the car and car related issues. It may get dull but that's what its for - sharing information. The other forums are fun and wide ranging, but don't go there if you don't like swearing or wider content.

Give it a bit of time, if we're still having these kinds of problems in a month or so then we look to having moderators being a little more pro-active.

Everyone happy with that?


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## paulb (May 6, 2002)

I certainly am. I think its what I have asked for a couple of times over the past months. Then I can get my OT and Flame fix at home not work!


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## clived (May 6, 2002)

If we change "swearing" to "overtly adult content, including swearing" I think that would placate most people.

Clive


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## KevinST (May 6, 2002)

I agree - I think the TT Forum should not have any "Adult content, or swearing".
I there are 5 more (just a random number) posts on here agreeing and not more that 5 disagreeing by the end of today they I'll do my best to enforce that. 
However please understand that this is not my site - Jae owns it and he is able to remove my moderator status as quickly as he introduced it if he doesn't agree with what I'm doing.


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

Thorney, Paulb
I agree


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## Kell (May 28, 2002)

Can I just chuck in my tuppence worth?

PaulB, as far as I can tell from reading this thread, is the only person with an actual reason (rather than an opinion) for why swearing should not be allowed in the main forum.

And from what else I can read, most people seem to either be for the censorship of the swearing (in the main forum) or don't mind one way or the other.

So I can't see any reason why the software that polices this sort of thing can't just be switched on. I assume there must be some software as even in the flame room, there is still one word that will not show up in your posts. (I think most people will know the one I mean.) I don't see why that feature can't be applied to all the 'premier' swear words.

That said, I have been guilty of swearing in the main forum - not because I think it's big or clever, nor because I have a limited vocabulary (I do write for living after all), but because at no point have I ever read that I was not allowed/supposed to.

And I think that's the crux of the problem, there are no rules and regs - perhaps because in the old days you didn't need them. But if the forum is changing, and I can only use the comments of others to verify that, then the rules governing it probably do need to change too. Instead of being unwritten rules, perhaps they do need to be written. A term of agreement that you have to OK before you can join.

I know the problem with those is that most of us just click OK without reading them, but at least they could be used as a beating stick for people in the event that they are flagrantly ignoring them.

I have to say that I am also guitly of taking some threads off-topic, but normally more in a humorous rather than sexual way. (IMHOOC.) But then the newbie Russhead was getting equally frustrated when asking for advice and most of the oldies were extracting the urine from his posts. So I guess it does work both ways.

In conclusion, I like it here, and while I don't mind the threads containing swearing etc, I can see why other people do.


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## rael (May 7, 2002)

I wonder how many other members we lost who just gave up and slipped away without an annoucement.

I think the minority are spoiling the site by introducing non-TT related topics, highjacking topics and taking the piss out of newbies. Others are replying with 'I agree' or 'really' with adds no value but add a valubale post the their many hundreds.

Let keep it topic related.

rael


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## Guest (Aug 13, 2002)

not being pedantic here.. but didn't everyone just agree to stop swearing on the main forum?

people now take the p*ss again...


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## Carlos (May 6, 2002)

I'm in agreement with no swearing on the main forum, but think it should be software based, rather than self policed.

That way a new member who innocently (!?) posts a swear word will be automatically told about it and made to change it before the post actually reaches the forum.

I know that we can all get around the software in V A R I O U S ways but to do that represents a deliberate flouting of the rules, rather than a momentary lapse, and the individual could be rightly rebuked/flogged.

To turn a previous question on its head...does anyone have a genuine reason why offensive language should not be banned from the main forum?

Bad language does not offend me. I'm no prude by any means, in the right environment with my mates almost every other word I utter begins with F, but there is a time and a place, and I think its not the main forum. Flame room yes, Off topic possibly.

Its a shame to lose members because of this. I too would not like my daughter to read the swearing and thinly disguised double entendres that litter the place. Not that she can read, she's only 1.


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## Guest (Aug 13, 2002)

:-/ Phew, I've just read this thread. I think everyone should just lighten up. There are so many things to contend with in every day life that's it's nice to have something put a smile on your face. I can't remember many threads on the main forum that have been turned into a serious of debauched comments after someone has posted something serious. I agree, I think F'ing & blinding in every other word is uncalled for on the main forum - but I don't think that it's prevalent. But from what I have seen (& I've been here 18 months) there is very little abuse (if any) directed at specific individuals and the majority of it is kept off topic or flame room.

As for the comments about children looking over your shoulder....was this site not set up for adults who drive? Therefore adult enough to decide whether they wish to continue viewing a thread or not. I am a mother of a son who is completely car mad but I wouldn't (and haven't) let him view this site in any context. But then I guess that is my form of policing. I buy him magazines, take him to shows and he's been to a meet recently and everyone there without exception was really friendly. Most people have children of their own and even the ones that don't are very respectful. I have met some great people through the site & on meets. Be realistic you're not going to get on with everyone, there are bound to be differences and if a thread you're reading goes a bit too pear shaped for your liking click the back button it's not that difficult.

As for the forum changing, doesn't everything in life, nothing stays the same....some things for the better, some not. Where we be if everything stayed the same? There would be no TT. Language has changed, I'll be the first to put my hand up and say I too can be guilty but it's never used nastily towards anyone else. I think everyone is respectful of that. But by the same token I've also been through some tough times recently and have had lots of fantastic messages & offers of help from other members and for that I'm very grateful.

Lets stay off the soap box & lighten up. There are too many good things here. Stamping ones little foot and declaring your leaving and never coming back seems a bit childish. Makes me wonder how often someone has popped back to have a look? If it's no longer to someone's taste either sort out the difference you may have with the people in question like an adult or go quietly. There's no need to slag someone off in a post before you go.


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## Ruffles (May 6, 2002)

Fuck me! An interesting discussion on the main forum for a change.

My opinions on this are wide and firmly held. I have been criticised in the past for being to harsh and agressive and generally lowering the tone of the place. Usually by people who see a few trees and not the forest.

CENSORSHIP IS BAD!

It always is. I don't have a concept of "bad language". The English language is one of the most powerful and rich languages in use around the world and the idea that there are some words that are inherently bad and must not be uttered lest the fabric of society be destroyed is untenable to anyone with an ounce of intellectual clout. I have commented on this before and I still hold to my views which extend beyond this forum into other aspects of life as well. The English language has a rich heritage which includes some Angle and Saxon words; maybe the original poor regard for such words came from Norman snobbery toward the indigenes and has since been exacerbated by an overly precious Victorian occupation with piety and things "pure" whatever those are.

Don't get me wrong folks. I believe that anyone who "effs and blinds" continuously and is not capable of any other mode of speech is inarticulate and is also likely to be limited in their outlook.

There isn't a case to answer here. Someone got the hump for reasons that, although stated, are still not clear to me. It's his right to bugger off into the sunset. People are complex creatures and don't behave according to their own stated rules far less anyone else's.

From what I can see, most of the posts on the main forum are about the dreary and dull things of TT ownership such as oil, dropping windows, blown engines, crappy dealers and the like. Maybe I haven't looked closely enough but I have not seen any "Vlastan specials" on the main forum at all.

If the current (close to non-existent) level of swearing on the main forum offends people then I genuinely think those people are overly sensitive.

If some people are having a problem with swearing in the flame room rendering the site inaccessible due to censorship at their own work places then I would say the problem is with their workplace and not the forum.

I have, to the best of my knowledge, never been manually censored until recently when my travelogue about my tour of Italy in the TTR was moved from the main forum to the events section for some unknown reason. The topics in that post were all main forum subjects such as driving habits, storage space, breakdowns, service issues and so on; all the standard topics that are discussed here. When this version of the forum was new, the automatics were changing the so-called "bad words" into gibberish which was both worrying and amusing at the same time.

My view of how administrators should function is a little at odds with Tim's, a forum member whom I admire and respect. I believe that the hand of the administrator should be as light as possible. A quiet word off-line in advance of a public discussion (should one be warranted) is how things should proceed in my view.

There is nothing wrong with this forum and the way it works. You can't please everyone all of the time without being so banal as to ruin the essence of the place. Someone left because of his views. It doesn't threaten anything. He might even be back.

Vlastan, keep up the good work. I am humbled at your posting rate.

If any forum members don't agree with me.... great! I would be pleased to cross words with you. Nothing like a good debate.

Don't confuse a lively discussion as a war or fundamental disagreement that will tear us apart. It's a healthy thing to have.


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## bash-the-monkey (Jun 5, 2002)

Ruffles - I want your children (metaphorically speaking anyway ;D)

Bash
www.bashthemonkey.com

PS can we get on with our lives now??


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## vernan (May 27, 2002)

Well I think the time has now come for me to say farewell to this topic


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

My goodness some of you must have big problems watching BBC1, BBC2, ITV and CH4 every night.

BTW surely this thread is pretty well off topic? :


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## Emmy (May 7, 2002)

considering the initial post, it should have probably been in the flame room (as Nick was flamed!)...

Moderators! 

S.


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## Steve_M (May 6, 2002)

Would be nice to see a clean main forum, no adult content or swearing, there's enough to talk about without using that kind of language and the off topic and flame rooms are designed for this type of discussion.

I would think too that it's in the interests of the site as a whole that the primary TT forum is clean enough for all sorts of people to visit and feel comfortable so it becomes more popular not just with the TT "junkies" but with "normal" TT owners too, if you'll excuse my choice of words.

I'm not in favour of censorship where it relates to content so slagging off a company for providing poor service or wild performance claims is OK but I am in favour of posts being deleted that may be deemed unsuitable or offensive to some visitors.

Trouble is the time required to monitor and take action is considerable so this may not be feasible.


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## KevinST (May 6, 2002)

Jae has placed the Acceptable Use Policy as the first thread on the main forum.


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## teacher (Jun 28, 2002)

By heck, this is one hell of a thread. Having read a few of the comments on here I think that some peope are missing the point.
Firstly,the issue seems to be about appropriate content versus bad language.
I feel that there is a distinct differnence betwen the two and the contexts they are used
After all, what is bad language? Saying that one is p*****o** with dealer service is a little different to saying one was disappointed- the language is used for effect and emphasis. The use of language is also dictated by region/country,socio-economiic and class factors to name but a few, so there is no language to fit all and never will be. On a personal level I rarely am offended by anything I read, except perhaps if it was directed personally or about someone I care about.
It seems that this debate has been catalysed by the alleged hyjacking of innoccuous and "normal" subject orientated threads been converted to banter on what, to some, is inapproptriate subject matter.
Having not read the the thread in question, and neither have I searched for it, I can but sympathise with those that do get offended by it happening.
Quite frankly it is a reflection of declining standards in society as a whole that there are some of us who can not decide what is appropriate or inappropriate behaviour, one of which is communication
At the end of the day, this is a TT forum. Anyone logging on would expect it to be about TTs, the flameroom is clearly posted as just that for off topic subjects.One does not expext conversations that begin about cars to degenerate into ramblings about anal sex, and this is the point- it's INAPPROPRIATE. It may be funny, hilarious even to some, but at the end of the day it's simply bad manners
Those that feel something of interest has finally arrived need to reflect on why U log on in the first place. If things are so so boring don't visit.
Personally I have found the site to be useful, I originally logged on to find out about the TT prior to purchase, I did not contribute but simply wanted to assertain the views about the car! I enjoy reading the various topics and find many amusing, but at the end of the day I can still say to myself" That's a bit Oh-TT" ;D ;D


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## A3DFU (May 7, 2002)

SteveM,
there is software available on the market to "evict" unsuitable posts so no time needed here.
KevinST, 
I can see the problem: forum first-timers do NOT take on board this policy :'( It's like all liscence agreements: you click "I agree" and never think twice  
"NEVER THINK TWICE" : that's the main problem, I think.


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

There were profanities used on BBC2 last night. Therefore my wife and I will never be watching any BBCTV again. :


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

I know what you mean, Gary. I was stuck in on my own last night, so decided to watch "Nikki Never Says No".

To my horror and shame, it was just endless footage of people having sex.

I'm never watching porn again...... ;(


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## bash-the-monkey (Jun 5, 2002)

you have all inspired me. NO MORE BAD TASTE STUFF FOR ME!!!!!

Bash
www.bashthemonkey.com

PS seeing that I am now living clean, does anyone want to buy the complete collection of Clam Lappers Vol 1 thru to Vol 90?

PPS - bit below the belt that.......


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## Foiel (May 8, 2002)

Hi,

I think that nasty language is everywhere nowdays, the solution is just to ignore it and to usa a bit of sense of humor ! come on !!!!! I LOVE THIS FORUM AND EVERYTIME I POST A QUESTION I ALWAYS GET AT LEAST 2 ANSWERS BACK ! it's very useful and helpful for people who love TT's ( even if the don't own one !),

I big SEE YA = ARRIVEDERCI to all the polite people : ( the MAJORITY !! ) and a " why don't leave the forum ??" to all the un-polite :-X folk !

SEE YA !!! ;D


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## Hairy (May 6, 2002)

Not sure about the content recently - my PC had its hard drive for lunch - but possibly the saddest thing about this thread is the lack of "older" members expressing an opinion!

I wonder how many still pop in as frequently as they used to..


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## Major Audi Parts Guru (May 7, 2002)

I log on every day Hairy ;D


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## Guest (Aug 19, 2002)

I've been mostly a viewer than "contributor" since the forum began and I am afraid it has gone down hill and almost boring, due to some of the absurd and close to the bone comments by some "get a lifes" in here.

I am interested in cars(TT's especially) and like a laugh about other things from time to time but when the chat goes to completely unrelated discussions verging on school room antics then it's switch off time.

Maybe the forum has now reached the end of it's life and rather than watching it deteriorate further it should be shut down or very heavily moderated(this is not censorship).

The forum needs to get back to the actual topic, that is TT- technical, experiences, quality, parts, specs etc etc.

If you want pub banter then go to the pub or if you want to practice a diverse physical experience with another human being then please go do it and stop talking about it in the Audi TT forum.


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## Guest (Aug 20, 2002)

TRRrrrrrrrr, couldn't agree more well said.


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## Guest (Aug 20, 2002)

Violets are blue, roses are red
Please let me be last on this thread


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## ShafTT (Jul 22, 2002)

I have just read this entire thread - don't tell my boss - and I'm 'kin worn out...... sorry couldn't resist.

The point I want to make is just to thank the members of the Forum. Â I got my TTC in april 2002 and joined the Forum not long after and it has been a source of valuable information ever since.

I thankfully didn't read the infamous posting by Vlastan but I am of an age where I can afford a TT, I am also old enough to take responsibility for what I do and don't read and if I don't like something I have seen I'm not going to be a drama queen like Graham and start stirring up trouble.

The length of the thread proves that the vast majority of the users of the Forum really do care about the subject matter and want to help other owners, appreciators etc and this Forum does exactly that. Â The windows issue has happened to me and I couldn't work out how I had done it - I now know it is a fault and even how not to repeat it.

Please let's continue what this Forum is great for and quickly stamp on anything that appears to the majority 'offensive'. (Moderators don't need to police everything)

We are all adults but many non-adults will see this site over shoulders so let's have a certain responsibility for what our kids are exposed to. Â We'd do it normally so let's not lower standards just because we can't be seen.

I would like to finish with the main point.

Thanks to all on the Forum - your help is much appreciated


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## DonaldC (May 7, 2002)

Not a chance!! ;D
I'm just back from my honeymoon in New Zealand where I was staying in a B&B with a family with two children. I was checking the TTForum every second day, until I was asked by the owner of the B&B not to access this site because of the 'adult content'. It seems his 7yr old son was interested in cars aswell! Several months ago, my system administrator told me that our firewall software was picking up the TTforum as 'adult' in content - knuckles were rapped! My wife has also mentioned the naff content of some posts and replies when she has been surfing this site - and she is interested in the TT and sports cars. I can understand Grahams comments - I have complained about the increase in poor postings before the new forum was introduced and I think the forum is getting worse for the content. I have not posted much recently because of the standard of replies. I started off in the www.audiworld.com site in 1999/2000 until it became very lame and moved onto this site because of the improved content (and that includes humour, grammer etc). I helped start up a football(!) forum about 7 years ago and the standard of posts/replies/banter was superior than this site has dropped towards at times. I now find I'm spending more time at other car sites and forums - yet I didn't find it necessary to post my feelings to the forum. Why - because experience tells me that criticism doesn't go down well. There is an important 'wake-up-call' in Grahams message. This site could be a lot better 

Donald


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