# Bison Motorsport Track Car Build - Update #22 27/01/16



## Nem

Paul (bigbison) has decided to build a TT track car which I'm helping with. Starting with a 180 quattro as a base this car had a blown turbo which was replaced with a brand new K03 and all was good. A 3" downpipe and cat bypass pipe was fitted and away we went...

Update 1 - Exhaust - viewtopic.php?p=5069761#p5069761

Update 2 - Roll Cage - viewtopic.php?p=5069769#p5069769

Update 3 - Paint Prep - viewtopic.php?p=5069777#p5069777

Update 4 - Back From Paint - viewtopic.php?p=5069785#p5069785

Update 5 - Interior Update - viewtopic.php?p=5069793#p5069793

Update 6 - Rear Subframe Strip - viewtopic.php?p=5069801#p5069801

Update 7 - Rear Reassembly - viewtopic.php?p=5102537#p5102537

Update 8 - Rear Subframe Build - viewtopic.php?p=5184169#p5184169

Update 9 - Suspension, Brakes & Seats - viewtopic.php?p=5304209#p5304209

Update 10 - Oil Cooler, Harnessess and Top Mounts - viewtopic.php?p=5354153#p5354153

Update 11 - Drop Links and on the ground!: viewtopic.php?p=5385129#p5385129

Update 12 - Alloy radiator and Front Splitter: viewtopic.php?p=5505466#p5505466

Update 13 - Audi Sport TT Cup Decals: viewtopic.php?p=5527066#p5527066

Update 14 - First Track Day Pics and Video: viewtopic.php?p=5595593#p5595593

Update 15 - Coilovers and Geo Setup: viewtopic.php?p=5676361#p5676361

Update 16 - Diffs, clutch, induction and engine mounts: viewtopic.php?p=5859082#p5859082

Update 17 - Rear spoiler and remap time: viewtopic.php?p=5883281#p5883281

Update 18 - Rear spolier complete and fitted: viewtopic.php?p=6070466#p6070466

Update 19 - Cadwell Park Track Day Ooops: viewtopic.php?p=6433617#p6433617

Update 20 - Winter teardown and projects: viewtopic.php?p=6479465#p6479465

Update 21: K04 conversion update: viewtopic.php?p=6534521#p6534521

Update 22: Boost Charge Pipe and First Start: viewtopic.php?p=6655058#p6655058


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## Nem

Exhaust Building

A full 3" custom system was fabricated using a generic rear box:


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## Nem

Roll Cage Fitting

A full Custom Cages roll cage was bought and then fitted:


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## Nem

Preparing for Paint

The entire interior was stripped of all sound deadening, any excess metal brackets, sanded and primed:


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## Nem

Back From Paint

First few shots of the interior after painting:


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## Nem

Current State

Pretty much where we're up to now. The exterior has been freshened up with a bit of paint where needed, the internal wireing has been cut back to the bare minimum and the dashboard now fitted back in place. The door cards were modified to fit around the roll cage. The front bumper has an extra grill fitted to allow more air for the front mounted intercooler. The light switch and boot / fuel cap release buttons has been remounted, and a boost gauge fitted. The battery has been relocated to a custom made alloy enclosure and a kill switch fitted up front.


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## Nem

Rear Subframe Strip

This last weekend we pulled off the entire rear subframe to be rebushed and pretty much everything blasted and powder coated before refitting with new suspension and roll bars and more.


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## Stochman

Jaysus, looking gooooood!!! Want one!!!!


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## jamman

Good work gents 8)


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## conlechi

Cool project , looking forward to the build updates


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## Duggy

Good work boys

Especially impressed with the extra grille for the fmic, most people just drill 4 big holes, but this looks finished  

Look forward to updates

John


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## Mondo

Wow, another fantastic build thread in a few days! Top work, guys. Looking forward to seeing the progress - although it's pretty damn impressive so far.

Massive [smiley=thumbsup.gif]


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## JorgeTTCQ

Amazing work 8)


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## turbo87

Really like the direction of this build


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## Desert_Green_TT

Great work guys, the attention to detail and finish make it look like a works team have put it together. Particularly like the FMIC cut out in the bumper where the plate used to go which has been beautifully done and other little touches like the CF blanking plate and kill switch where the head unit used to be. I could go on but the excellent quality of workmanship shows in the pictures.

Dread to think how many hours have gone into this so far but what a beautifully executed result. I'll be keeping my eye on this thread for sure. 8)


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## roddy

shell sorted,, looking forward to engine and running gear next..


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## Mr_Smith

Loving your work here gentlemen, especially the additional grill up front!

What are the plans for the engine?


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## Paulj100

Loving this! Attention to detail is incredible guys. Iv always fancied doing a track day car myself so will be watching this with great interest. 8)

Paul


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## Kyle18uk

awesome build! would love to strip and repaint the interior on mine.

any details on the battery relocation? looking to do that on mine next.


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## bigbison

thanks for all your kind comments will keep you updated , only mild power upgrades for now until engine dies then will begin 
cheers


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## fixitagaintomoz

I was slightly amazed that you bought a new turbo and didn't go down the k04 manifold and turbo route, would have cost a bit more but delivered massive gains.

looking good none the less


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## Spaceman10

Hi Paul

Great job mate, you and nick have worked wonders.
Can't wait to see it finish.

Look forward to seeing the next step.

Again top job guys

Phil


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## Nem

Next update...

Couple of quick pics of the air filter, catch tank and battery reolcation:



















Now two sets of the standard 17" TT alloys ready to be powder coated:










Front subframe and suspension now also removed:



















Rear now cleaned up underneath:










How to change a haldex controller the easy way:

Step 1 - remove the rear subframe and differential.

Step 2 - remove the first bolt:










Step 3 - remove the second bolt:










Step 4 - remove the haldex controller:










Easy 

So, all the underside components are off for a blast and powder coat, then next week we'll be starting to re-bush and refit it all.


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## Nem

Right, so next update. All subframe components are back from powder coat and we've started to put things back on again. Rear subframe is back up with rear diff/haldex unit and controller. Front subframe is on for a test fit currently.

Front and rear subframes have been changed to solid alloy 'bushes' all round, another new Bison Motorsport product!

All the driveshafts have been reconditioned with powder coat, reassembled and some galv spray to finish off, as have the adjustable rear arms which have been free'd up from being seized up.

Rear trailing arms need the new wheel breaings fitting along with the other bushes, then brake lines can be looked at before fitting those both back on.

R32 roll bars are already coated and waiting to go on. Front wishbones and hubs are needing bushes and bearings also, those are sat ready. Two sets of alloys are now also satin black and have some track day slicks ready for one set.

Then an oil cooler and power steering cooler will be next on the list to modify 

Think thats about it for now


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## jamman

One of the few threads that makes me return these days

Cool work gents a credit to you


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## cookbot

Orange haldex? That'll be why I got the blue one then :lol:

What happened to the secret plug?


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## bigbison

jamman said:


> One of the few threads that makes me return these days
> 
> Cool work gents a credit to you


cheers mate i know what ya mean :wink:


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## V6RUL

Keep some cushions handy for the seat, with those bushings in..
Nice to see the driveshafts have been reconditioned with some paint..
Wish I had a chop shop to do some of my own work.. [smiley=bigcry.gif] 
Steve


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## Mondo

jamman said:


> One of the few threads that makes me return to this steaming pile of shite forum these days...


Aye. This one, and the Marius-James-Stephen Love-in thread. 

Back OT: excellent work guys. Super dedication. 8)


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## Nem

So, Paul has been busy over Christmas and got loads back on the car. I went over yesterday to help get the seats in and got a load of pictures from since I was last there...

All of the suspension and braking systems are back installed. Bilstein shocks and VW Racing springs along with R32 Roll Bars and Seat Sport AP Racing callipers and braided lines.


















































































Tyres now fitted to the satin black alloys, one set of track slicks and one set of road legal track tyres.



















Paul decided he didn't like the mass of power steering pipes underneath, especially the loop all across the front and back which acts as a cooler. So this was all ripped out and new pipes and a cooler fitted with a custom bracket in place of one of the old side intercoolers.














































Couple of pics of the Seat Sport front mount and piping as the bumper was already fitted before. We've had to take the bumper off to fit another custom cooler - pics next update I'd assume 





































Battery box finished off



















Then onto the interior with the seat mountings














































Then onto the seats themselves, Mirco seats brand new with custom Audi logo embroidered into them  First job was to get the angle grinder on them and take a but out of the upper back to allow just a bit more room around the roll cage.























































So both seats now in, still need final adjustment but almost there.

We're getting closer... 8)


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## Matt B

Really nice build, superb work and so very very clean. I am impressed guys keep up the good work.


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## L33JSA

Credit where credit is due - that is a super clean build fair play.

Keep the updates coming


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## turbo87

Loving the effort that's going into this 8)


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## Kyle18uk

Very very nice!

I like the power steering cooler and bracket! I need one!


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## roddy

very nice mate,,but I would have thot with all the effort you would have gone for some bigger brakes...


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## Nem

roddy said:


> very nice mate,,but I would have thot with all the effort you would have gone for some bigger brakes...


With the level of weight reduction I was pretty much locking the wheels up with the standard 180 brakes, so the 4 pot AP Racing ones will be just fine


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## Nem

Slightly smaller update from today...

Oil cooler is now fitted and plumbed in, using a thermostatic sandwich plate on the oil filter connection and a smaller oil filter from a polo I believe. The pipes just need clipping up securely underneath.





































The seats are now fully mounted and secure, did need some spacers and washers making up to get the fit exactly right and so the side mounts did not rub on the seats themselves. Harnesses are now also fitted 










Had to remove the front struts to fit the adjustable alloy top mounts which are now in place also.










And lastly Paul decided to replace the inlet manifold, the one on the car has been semi polished and seeing as we're going down a clean and original route it had to go. Also found and fixed a few boost/vac leaks while it was being swapped.










I believe the MOT is booked for two weeks time so next update should have it back on it's wheels and pretty much finished.


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## fixitagaintomoz

Looking very clean, impressed with the quality of work here! The power steering cooler isn't a bad idea either! If my lines corrode like many have on here that's the route I will go down!


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## Nem

Last update for now...

New adjustable drop links now fitted front and rear:














































A quick coil pack / cam cover grounding wire:










Finally after a full bolt check underneath we threw the standard wheels back on and got it on the ground 



















So, the MOT is booked this weekend so we'll see what happens then  Not that it should have any problems. First track day is booked for early March so will post up some pictures then if nothing else changes before.

Cheers.


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## nate42

Where did you get those drop links? They look proper. Nice build!


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## Mr_Smith

The workmanship going into this build is outstanding. Fantastic work.


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## Mondo

Man, those drop links.... I feel another purchase coming on, when your mate knocks out a few sets.


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## bigbison

thanks for your comments guys iam thinking of doing a small batch of the drop links but prices would be around £200 -£225 a set of 4 but these are proper rod ends and materials these would come with all the spacers and bolts etc also theres a few other bits in the pipe line also 
cheers paul


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## roddy

Nem said:


> roddy said:
> 
> 
> 
> very nice mate,,but I would have thot with all the effort you would have gone for some bigger brakes...
> 
> 
> 
> With the level of weight reduction I was pretty much locking the wheels up with the standard 180 brakes, so the 4 pot AP Racing ones will be just fine
Click to expand...

ooop,, sorry mate,, did not realise the " Seat sport" in the photo were 4 pot AP.. :wink:


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## peter139

Very clean work. That cage is so nice fitted. Love the detail time you spend on that car. keep on going


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## brushwood69

Love the build and lots to copy!! so to start with where did you get the adjustable alloy top mounts from? or did you make them yourself?

Regards

BW


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## Kyle18uk

Any chance you could advise on your power steering cooler? looking to make one myself but what fittings did you use etc?


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## Nyxx

Wow, stunning job


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## Nem

Been doing a few more bits the last couple of weeks so thought I'd share some more pics  Main project has been the front end with a new full alloy radiator being fitted - lots more capacity and took an age to fill up and get the air out of the system, but also a full front splitter. So while the front bumper was off I took a couple of extra shots of whats going off in there which might not have been covered previously.

One thing on the rear first, a satin black spoiler extension now fitted:










Quick shot of how the extra front vent was done:










Then a few of the new alloy rad along with the Seat Sport intercooler and extra oil cooler:




























Then onto the splitter:













































































































And lastly the Ferodo DS3000 pads were thrown in for good measure:


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## Wiggles01

Hi Nem, what did you use to cover the ply splitter with?

W


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## Nem

Wiggles01 said:


> Hi Nem, what did you use to cover the ply splitter with?
> 
> W


Think it was just some basic satin black stonechip paint, slightly rubberised and slightly textured in finish.


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## Von Twinzig

Are you just relying on bolting the splitter to the bumper? General rule of thumb is if it's to be effective it needs to come back further to meet the floorpan so you get a seal and you should be able to stand on the front edge (just a crude check to represent the dynamic loads). Most are bolted to something structural at the rear and have rods to the front to support the load and allow the front edge to lift a little when you hit a curb. Like this....



















But there will always have to compromise on a road car over a race car.

Nice project BTW. [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

VT


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## bigbison

Von Twinzig said:


> Are you just relying on bolting the splitter to the bumper? General rule of thumb is if it's to be effective it needs to come back further to meet the floorpan so you get a seal and you should be able to stand on the front edge (just a crude check to represent the dynamic loads). Most are bolted to something structural at the rear and have rods to the front to support the load and allow the front edge to lift a little when you hit a curb. Like this....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But there will always have to compromise on a road car over a race car.
> 
> Nice project BTW. [smiley=thumbsup.gif]
> 
> VT


hi vt 
support rods on the way does bolt to structor of the car a friend of mine runs a btcc car and you wouldnt stand on that one but i no what you mean the solider the better
cheers


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## 1781cc

Amazing thread, inspirational on one hand and daunting on the other because I want my track car to be done as well!

the attention to detail resembles that of a show car, very impressed


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## Matt B

Love this project but ds3000 - I am still having nightmares about those pads. Amazing braking as long as you don't mind them killing your wheels with fragments of disc


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## jamman

Agreed one of the few threads along with VTs that break the boredom of this place.

Great work.


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## TTSPORT666

Great stuff here guys well done.. [smiley=dude.gif]

Damien.


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## Nem

Time for some decals  So Paul found some inspiration in the new Mk3 TT Cup racing car and has used this as a basis for some vinyl for the track car:










So after a days work including some Bison Motorsport text and the M-Factory logos - their diff components are going in at a later stage, we have this...


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## Nyxx

Look forward to seeing it in the flesh Paul, looks the nuts


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## Nem

Well, yesterday was the day, first track session for the Bison Motorsport TT.

I didn't manage much time at the track myself, suffering with a hell of a cold, but I did get there for some pictures and a single 15 minute passenger session out with Paul driving. Have to say it goes really well indeed, handling is fantastic as is braking performance. All in all I think we've done a damn good job 

The second stage of the build is already starting to take shape but will now be more of a gradual evolution I think, things like changing to coilovers from the VW racing setup to get a bit lower and firmer again, and also there are the front and rear diff components from M-Factory already in the parts store to be used when Paul gets to that point.

So I'll finish with the track pictures and a quick video too and will add on any updates as and when they might happen...

Video best watched in HD on youtube, click the youtube logo bottom right to do this and then the cog icon to change up to 720p or 1080p


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## Nem

Few more bits done 

VW Racing suspension now replaced with Bilstein Coilovers to get it a bit lower and a set of CookBot adjustable rear tie bars fitted to help with the alignment which was then all set up.


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## Nem

So, for the next instalment we have diffs, induction, clutches and engine mounts 

The rear diff along with the gearbox have both been removed to have the M-Factory internals fitted:



















Paul has fabricated a full alloy intake pipe including alloy maf housing to go along with the Zircotec ceramic coated Pipercross BTCC air filter 8)





































Brand new clutch plate and cover ready to go back on:










Along with a beautiful steel flywheel:



















Lastly was a rethink of the standard engine mounts:










The eventual plan was to seal off one side and then pour in a rubber sollution to make the entire inside of the mount a single bush. This when set has increased the stiffness a huge amount and was a very cheap and easy upgrade which will make a great deal of difference:




























Forgot to get an after shot of the engine mounts but when the excess rubber was cleaned away and the whole thing blasted to finish off it looks like an oem part as if it came from the factory.

The gearbox and rear diff have already been rebuilt and now fitted back in the car ready for the next trackday next week.


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## JorgeTTCQ

Wow, what a great job, looks awesome.


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## nate42

Great work! Lots of pics from the diff install please. Planning to do that also in some point. Not many Quattro TT's here with LSD's so that is one of the few topics not much covered on this forum.


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## Nem

nate42 said:


> Great work! Lots of pics from the diff install please. Planning to do that also in some point. Not many Quattro TT's here with LSD's so that is one of the few topics not much covered on this forum.


Hi the actual gearbox and rear diff just went off to a specialist place who stripped and rebuilt them for us, we just threw them back in the car when they came back I'm afraid.


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## nate42

Nem said:


> Hi the actual gearbox and rear diff just went off to a specialist place who stripped and rebuilt them for us, we just threw them back in the car when they came back I'm afraid.


That is probably the reasonable thing to do as drilling OEM diff out is not easy. Backlash measurements etc if not done right and you end up with whining diff. Whining diff is very race car but a bit tiresome in the end :lol: Especially as LSD's should be just as silent as OEM open diff.

On a dry day with those slicks you won't see much wheel spin, but rainy day should make a huge difference. Next wet trackday will be a fun for sure  8) Open diffs tend to turn the car when you loose traction under power.


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## Mondo

Nice welding on the TIP. And nice TIP. But... why Zircotec the filter housing? To try to keep the heat of the bay warming the air?


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## Nem

The filter was pre coated, if you have a look for the official btcc pipercross filter.


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## Mondo

300 nicker?!? 

Better work.


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## Nem

Ok, some more progress made...

Couple of shots of the finished engine mounts, all blasted over and cleaned up:




























Quick shot of the full induction system installed:










Can't remember if I've shown the alloy racing fab coolant tank:










New steering wheel also fitted, slightly smaller but also flat bottomed to help getting in and out 










Then the next big change, can't show what is going on as it's still being fabricated, but with the help of some fishing wire the oem spoiler was eventually removed. For the time being it's just been bolted back on till the replacement is finished:








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Then off to PK Motorsport in Lincoln for some performance tuning. The injectors were upgraded to a set of BAM ones but were flow tested first which found one slightly down on performance:










The culprit was the far right filter basket being damaged:










So all of these were swapped with metal ones:










Then onto the dyno for an initial benchmark run:




























Results were 189hp and 258lbs which was quite good from basically the induction and exhaust:










But then it all went wrong:










The ECU could be accessed but not written to and after a good hour of trying different methods the ECU was taken out and inspected to find a very old Super Chips piggy back chip in there! Have no idea what it was doing as it certainly wasn't doing much by way of extra performance going on the dyno run but it was basically not allowing any progress with loading a new map on it now.

The next day a replacement ECU was sourced and the mapping was all completed fine, with the outcome 239hp! I wasn't there for the second session so no more pics I'm afraid or video of the final power runs.

We're off to blyton park tomorrow for a full days shake down to see how the last lot of changes/upgrades work and will post some pics/video over the weekend.

Will leave it with the video from the initial dyno testing, and the ever helpful bosch workshop apprentice Lois Lane - yes that really is her name


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## Bartsimpsonhead

LoL - Poor Louise Lane's rear probe fell out - oops!  And after she so carefully inserted it too  
Hope those readings weren't important to the results?

Still, an interesting and meticulous build - Paul should be rightfully proud of it.


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## brushwood69

All looking great there! will be great to see videos of the track day.


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## Nem

Coming soon...


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## NickG

Nem said:


> Coming soon...


Take my money, make 2! (In fact probably 3 or 4 I guarantee others will want one too!)


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## 1781cc

NickG said:


> Nem said:
> 
> 
> 
> Coming soon...
> 
> 
> 
> Take my money, make 2! (In fact probably 3 or 4 I guarantee others will want one too!)
Click to expand...

I second that, I'd be up for buying one of these as well


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## Von Twinzig

Yep, although this one is on my radar too...http://www.buddyclubuk.com/acatalog/BUD ... WINGS.html

VT


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## NickG

Von Twinzig said:


> Yep, although this one is on my radar too...http://www.buddyclubuk.com/acatalog/BUD ... WINGS.html
> 
> VT


  oooo that's pretty! Real prettty!


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## Von Twinzig

NickG said:


> Von Twinzig said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, although this one is on my radar too...http://www.buddyclubuk.com/acatalog/BUD ... WINGS.html
> 
> VT
> 
> 
> 
> oooo that's pretty! Real prettty!
Click to expand...

CF too Nick. When we're ready we should double up and push them for a forum discount methinks. 

VT


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## NickG

Worse plans have been made Mr VT! Nothing wrong with a massive carbon spoiler as long as it's functional, not a show piece!


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## Von Twinzig

Quite!


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## Nem

Bit more progress:


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## NickG

Need more pictures!!


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## 1781cc

Thats a sexy wing, my god, where do I get one from?


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## Grahamstt

Well that certainly looks like it's going to do the business

Keep up the good work


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## Warranty_Void

Its a bit small :mrgreen:


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## Nem

So, the spolier is now complete and fitted 














































8)


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## 1781cc

Nem said:


> So, the spolier is now complete and fitted


OMG, I really want one of these! please put it into production for us!


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## NickG

That's a *biiiiiig* wing!!

Any testing with it on yet?


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## Gonzalo1495

NickG said:


> That's a *biiiiiig* wing!!
> 
> Any testing with it on yet?


That is literally the biggest wing I would ever dare fit to this car. It's very nice looking though I've got to admit


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## Jez xbx

Think I found where you got it from ;-)

"USAF reports missing stealth bomber.
Thought to have gone down over Afghanistan"


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## Madmax199

Nice wing! You don't see these often on TTs. A few questions:

- How is lateral support with the mounts legs being in a single plane?

- Why not make the lower trunk-portion of the mounts flat instead of 3-points to increase contact surface area and prevent shearing?

- Any reasoning behind having the end plates only boxing air under the blade? Wouldn't it be much more efficient boxing in 
airflow over and under the main element?

I am asking I don't know if you guys are operating under some racing class restrictions. Great work and lots of potential here [smiley=cheers.gif]


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## Grahamstt

I would think as it's a proper aerofoil shape that the underside is the important surface -- negative lift pulling down the wing. 
The underside is also going to have more turbulence from the body work.

Paul, are you going to adjust it with trial and error or do you have some sort of access to a wind tunnel. 
I would think the angle is going to be critical on the drag/downforce ratio.

Certainly looks the business.....good work guys


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## dazman

This spoiler is a work of art you should 100% make these mounts to sell


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## bigbison

hi guy cheers for the comments the wing is from a 997 porsche cup car , its a genuine porsche carbon fibre part and the blade part is well over 1k its the real deal , going testing at blyton but think ill be altering it for less down force 
cheers paul


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## Madmax199

Grahamstt said:


> I would think as it's a proper aerofoil shape that the underside is the important surface -- negative lift pulling down the wing.
> The underside is also going to have more turbulence from the body work.


No, both sides (low and high pressure) are equally as important. BTW, turbulence reduction and control is NOT the only purpose of end plates. Amongst other things, end plates affects drag coefficient, longitudinal stability, yawing-moment coefficient, side-force coefficient, effective dihedral, downforce coefficient, etc.

It's for a reason that end plate total surface area (just like airfoil) is usually restricted by classing rules in racing. They make a huge difference that can't be left unregulated...


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## Madmax199

bigbison said:


> hi guy cheers for the comments the wing is from a 997 porsche cup car , its a genuine porsche carbon fibre part and the blade part is well over 1k its the real deal , going testing at blyton but think ill be altering it for less down force
> cheers paul


Field testing in the racing environment is always the way to go, and what will provide the final answers to stability, amount of downforce, crosstalk with front end aero etc.

I still predict that the mounts will need some mounting reinforcement and lateral support. The trunk, as steady as it may seem, will buckle dynamically at the round attachment points (don't ask me how I know). A flat surface to spread the load will go a long way with the mount base. Keep up the good work!


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## bigbison

Madmax199 said:


> bigbison said:
> 
> 
> 
> hi guy cheers for the comments the wing is from a 997 porsche cup car , its a genuine porsche carbon fibre part and the blade part is well over 1k its the real deal , going testing at blyton but think ill be altering it for less down force
> cheers paul
> 
> 
> 
> Field testing in the racing environment is always the way to go, and what will provide the final answers to stability, amount of downforce, crosstalk with front end aero etc.
> 
> I still predict that the mounts will need some mounting reinforcement and lateral support. The trunk, as steady as it may seem, will buckle dynamically at the round attachment points (don't ask me how I know). A flat surface to spread the load will go a long way with the mount base. Keep up the good work!
Click to expand...

the mountings are solid and large washers under the boot but the mounts are also straight above the rear quarters not in the middle wear there is no support it is very sturdy also with input on the mounts from friend who works on the touring cars and gt championship so there good to go


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## Madmax199

bigbison said:


> the mountings are solid and large washers under the boot but the mounts are also straight above the rear quarters not in the middle wear there is no support it is very sturdy also with input on the mounts from friend who works on the touring cars and gt championship so there good to go


Ok, like I said field testing will provide all the answers. BTW, I have used similar aero attachment points (same reinforced trunk area and with large fender washers on the under-side) on my TT. My concerns and inputs were coming from personal experience that saw the trunk sheet metal buckling, so I hope you didn't see at criticizing your work. Cheers!


----------



## Grahamstt

Madmax199 said:


> Grahamstt said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would think as it's a proper aerofoil shape that the underside is the important surface -- negative lift pulling down the wing.
> The underside is also going to have more turbulence from the body work.
> 
> 
> 
> No, both sides (low and high pressure) are equally as important. BTW, turbulence reduction and control is NOT the only purpose of end plates. Amongst other things, end plates affects drag coefficient, longitudinal stability, yawing-moment coefficient, side-force coefficient, effective dihedral, downforce coefficient, etc.
> 
> It's for a reason that end plate total surface area (just like airfoil) is usually restricted by classing rules in racing. They make a huge difference that can't be left unregulated...
Click to expand...

Without going into the technicalities that would go straight over peoples heads the point made was that it is a proper "wing" and not a spoiler / wind deflector


----------



## bigbison

forgot to mention it but this rear wing weighs less than the standard boot spoiler


----------



## Nem

So another outing at Blyton Park this Sunday just gone. Very hot day again and quite a busy time on track but still showing almost everything out there how it's done. A bit more power at some point and it'll be awesome 












































]


----------



## Gonzalo1495

Nem said:


>


Are those holes along the inner front bumper cosmetic or functional?


----------



## CollecTTor

Gonzalo1495 said:


> Are those holes along the inner front bumper cosmetic or functional?


Speed holes, aka weight savings.


----------



## Nem

Had a day at Cadwell Park last Friday, few pic from the day. Was very wet however which resulted in a coming together with the tyre barrier. Hit the rear end cracking the light cluster, breaking off the spoiler end plate and then span the car around and hit the front corner denting the wing and popping the bumper out a bit. Bit of track day engineering and it was back out for the afternoon sessions too! All simple things to fix though


----------



## Von Twinzig

....and that's why I have no intention of driving Cadwell in the wet.....for now. :?

My mate properly twatted his racing Scoobie there last year. Good job it was only 2 rounds from the end of the season. 4 years of racing and a wet Cadwell was his only meeting with the scenery.

VT


----------



## NickG

Yup, screw driving that, especially in the wet. The back half is fine, but that wooded section... no, not for me!

Glad you managed to get up and running though, good effort!


----------



## nate42

Could have been much worst I guess, I'd say you were lucky with that minor damage. Good sport on getting back on track right away, that's the spirit!

Wet days are fun but only on the slow speed corners that have space to play. It's kind of boring just to "cruise" on the straights and fast turns. Most terrifying is a half dry track, when you make a little mistake get out from the dry line and the you are in BIIIIIG trouble...


----------



## Madmax199

nate42 said:


> Could have been much worst I guess, I'd say you were lucky with that minor damage. Good sport on getting back on track right away, that's the spirit!
> 
> Wet days are fun but only on the slow speed corners that have space to play. It's kind of boring just to "cruise" on the straights and fast turns. Most terrifying is a half dry track, when you make a little mistake get out from the dry line and the you are in BIIIIIG trouble...


Well said! My personal rule is if it's wet I park it! Unless a sanctioned point event in a series where I have no choice, and dedicated rain track tires are used, it is not worth the risk for such limited speed and reward.

Car looks great BTW OP!


----------



## bigbison

come on you lot stop being wimps lol


----------



## Grahamstt

There's a rally man speaking
[smiley=thumbsup.gif]


----------



## Von Twinzig

Grahamstt said:


> There's a rally man speaking
> [smiley=thumbsup.gif]


There's a man with his own garage, 4 post lift and maybe a Porta Power speaking more like :lol:

VT


----------



## bigbison

Grahamstt said:


> There's a rally man speaking
> [smiley=thumbsup.gif]


how did you no lol done 57 rallies to date you will never do anything in this country its bound to rain


----------



## Grahamstt

I think I picked up on it on a previous post somewhere, I've competed and been involved one way or another for years. 
I'm still heavily involved but haven't competed in a full spec car for a while now.


----------



## Nem

Winter tear down and upgrades...

So the first thing to go is the heater box to be replaced with a simple small heater and fan:










Quite suprising how huge this things actually is, and how much more room there is inside with it removed:










With that job out of the way the next major project has also begun, any guesses to the plans?


----------



## Madmax199

Looking good! New turbo, inlet manifold and piping?


----------



## Von Twinzig

Nick,

Can you stick the heater box on the bathroom scales for me please.

Thanks

VT


----------



## Nem

Von Twinzig said:


> Nick,
> 
> Can you stick the heater box on the bathroom scales for me please.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> VT


Can't now sorry, was stripped for the scrap metal in the rads inside.


----------



## Von Twinzig

Nem said:


> Von Twinzig said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nick,
> 
> Can you stick the heater box on the bathroom scales for me please.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> VT
> 
> 
> 
> Can't now sorry, was stripped for the scrap metal in the rads inside.
Click to expand...

Educated guess?

VT


----------



## bigbison

Von Twinzig said:


> Nem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Von Twinzig said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nick,
> 
> Can you stick the heater box on the bathroom scales for me please.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> VT
> 
> 
> 
> Can't now sorry, was stripped for the scrap metal in the rads inside.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Educated guess?
> 
> VT
Click to expand...

5/6 kg


----------



## Von Twinzig

Cool.

Thanks.

VT


----------



## Madmax199

Von Twinzig said:


> Nick,
> 
> Can you stick the heater box on the bathroom scales for me please.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> VT


16 lbs/ 7.25kg (including heater core)


----------



## Von Twinzig

Madmax199 said:


> Von Twinzig said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nick,
> 
> Can you stick the heater box on the bathroom scales for me please.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> VT
> 
> 
> 
> 16 lbs/ 7.25kg (including heater core)
Click to expand...

Brilliant. Thanks Max.

VT


----------



## Madmax199

Von Twinzig said:


> Madmax199 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Von Twinzig said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nick,
> 
> Can you stick the heater box on the bathroom scales for me please.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> VT
> 
> 
> 
> 16 lbs/ 7.25kg (including heater core)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Brilliant. Thanks Max.
> 
> VT
Click to expand...

You're quite welcome Sir!


----------



## Nem

So what about a twin charged 1.8T with a K03s for low down fast spool and an inline K04 for top end?










K04 manifold was easy after I fitted one on my car a couple of weeks back:










Just looking at three options to get the K03s in and plumbed in, plenty of space for them both tho whichever way we choose


----------



## Madmax199

K04 turbine housing will choke at 5,000 rpm. So both these turbos will be for low-midrange in a compound setup. Waste of time and fabrication if you ask me. A K03 feeding something bigger would make sense, but a K04 is pretty pointless, you might as well just run the K04 alone.


----------



## Gonzalo1495

Madmax199 said:


> K04 turbine housing will choke at 5,000 rpm. So both these turbos will be for low-midrange in a compound setup. Waste of time and fabrication if you ask me. A K03 feeding something bigger would make sense, but a K04 is pretty pointless, you might as well just run the K04 alone.


Isn't it proven at this point that unless you are going from a very small turbo to a very large BT, it really is a waste of time? I think the supra models that notion well. Everyone ditches the twin turbos and goes for larger single turbo setups.


----------



## Madmax199

Gonzalo1495 said:


> Madmax199 said:
> 
> 
> 
> K04 turbine housing will choke at 5,000 rpm. So both these turbos will be for low-midrange in a compound setup. Waste of time and fabrication if you ask me. A K03 feeding something bigger would make sense, but a K04 is pretty pointless, you might as well just run the K04 alone.
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't it proven at this point that unless you are going from a very small turbo to a very large BT, it really is a waste of time? I think the supra models that notion well. Everyone ditches the twin turbos and goes for larger single turbo setups.
Click to expand...

The Supra is not a good example because they had a twin turbo, not a compound turbo setup. A twin turbo has a pair of turbos doing equal work. A compound setup is totally different, a small turbo spools in the low range to feed compressed air to a much larger one. The result is a wider powerband (low and top end) than both turbos could achieve alone. Compound setups, when done properly, don't suffer low end lag typical of big turbos, and don't choke on the top end like small frame ones. So beside the complexity, they're win/win setups with best of both world characteristics. The only issue with the OP's idea is that the larger turbo selection is a very small turbo itself.


----------



## Gonzalo1495

Madmax199 said:


> Gonzalo1495 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Madmax199 said:
> 
> 
> 
> K04 turbine housing will choke at 5,000 rpm. So both these turbos will be for low-midrange in a compound setup. Waste of time and fabrication if you ask me. A K03 feeding something bigger would make sense, but a K04 is pretty pointless, you might as well just run the K04 alone.
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't it proven at this point that unless you are going from a very small turbo to a very large BT, it really is a waste of time? I think the supra models that notion well. Everyone ditches the twin turbos and goes for larger single turbo setups.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Supra is not a good example because they had a twin turbo, not a compound turbo setup. A twin turbo has a pair of turbos doing equal work. A compound setup is totally different, a small turbo spools in the low range to feed compressed air to a much larger one. The result is a wider powerband (low and top end) than both turbos could achieve alone. Compound setups, when done properly, don't suffer low end lag typical of big turbos, and don't choke on the top end like small frame ones. So beside the complexity, they're win/win setups with best of both world characteristics. The only issue with the OP's idea is that the larger turbo selection is a very small turbo itself.
Click to expand...

Gotcha! Sorry for the mixup haha.

So in a perfect world, if you had the same car, same mods, and did a compound set up versus a large turbo, of proportionate dimensions, the compound would be faster because of the wider power band then?


----------



## Madmax199

Yeah, the compound would be much better overall due to its powerband. (It also depends on what the car is used for, some applications could care less about area under the curve, and it's all about top end power).


----------



## Large Package

Madmax199 said:


> Gonzalo1495 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Madmax199 said:
> 
> 
> 
> K04 turbine housing will choke at 5,000 rpm. So both these turbos will be for low-midrange in a compound setup. Waste of time and fabrication if you ask me. A K03 feeding something bigger would make sense, but a K04 is pretty pointless, you might as well just run the K04 alone.
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't it proven at this point that unless you are going from a very small turbo to a very large BT, it really is a waste of time? I think the supra models that notion well. Everyone ditches the twin turbos and goes for larger single turbo setups.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Supra is not a good example because they had a twin turbo, not a compound turbo setup. A twin turbo has a pair of turbos doing equal work. A compound setup is totally different, a small turbo spools in the low range to feed compressed air to a much larger one. The result is a wider powerband (low and top end) than both turbos could achieve alone. Compound setups, when done properly, don't suffer low end lag typical of big turbos, and don't choke on the top end like small frame ones. So beside the complexity, they're win/win setups with best of both world characteristics. The only issue with the OP's idea is that the larger turbo selection is a very small turbo itself.
Click to expand...

Bringing back memories of my old FD3S, max. There was a noticable kick when the larger turbo spooled, I remember. Similar behaviour to VVT Honda's/Mitsi's of the same era.

Interested to see how this build goes though [smiley=book2.gif]


----------



## Madmax199

Large Package said:


> Bringing back memories of my old FD3S, max. There was a noticable kick when the larger turbo spooled, I remember. Similar behaviour to VVT Honda's/Mitsi's of the same era.
> 
> Interested to see how this build goes though [smiley=book2.gif]


FD3S are awesome powerplants, definitely on my "must own" list of RWD turbo cars.

However, to remain technically correct, the FD3S was a sequential setup, not a true coumpound. The sequentials is basically like a half-compound because they are only compounding on the exhaust side. A true compound is compounding the turbos on the cold side as well and boost is a multiplication of both turbos.

The true compound setups have very high boost potential (over 100 psi is not impossible or uncommon). No petrol car (AFAIK) did a compound setup, you usually find the technology on commercial turbo diesels (run mind boggling boost for insane towing capability). Mitsubishi at some point entertained a compound setup for the Evo, but the chief designer punked out and remained conventional with production (the compound mules were running 75 psi comfortably and making upward of 500 whp, but low gas mileage with a heavy right foot).


----------



## Large Package

Madmax199 said:


> Large Package said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bringing back memories of my old FD3S, max. There was a noticable kick when the larger turbo spooled, I remember. Similar behaviour to VVT Honda's/Mitsi's of the same era.
> 
> Interested to see how this build goes though [smiley=book2.gif]
> 
> 
> 
> FD3S are awesome powerplants, definitely on my "must own" list of RWD turbo cars.
> 
> Do it
> 
> However, to remain technically correct, the FD3S was a sequential setup, not a true coumpound. The sequentials is basically like a half-compound because they are only compounding on the exhaust side. A true compound is compounding the turbos on the cold side as well and boost is a multiplication of both turbos.
> 
> I'm not going to pretend I have the slightest clue what you're talking about, I need to do more reading :lol:
> 
> The true compound setups have very high boost potential (over 100 psi is not impossible or uncommon). No petrol car (AFAIK) did a compound setup, you usually find the technology on commercial turbo diesels (run mind boggling boost for insane towing capability). Mitsubishi at some point entertained a compound setup for the Evo, but the chief designer punked out and remained conventional with production (the compound mules were running 75 psi comfortably and making upward of 500 whp, but low gas mileage with a heavy right foot).
Click to expand...

There's a Rotary specialist I bought my 7 from back in '06 quite close to home. I rememer him trying to explain that the smaller turbine only ran from 1 rotor which in turn fed the 2nd turbine which in turn then fed both rotors (or something along those lines). Needless to say my mind was blown [smiley=bomb.gif]

Interestingly, however, I understand you can keep bolting on additional rotors, limited only by real estate (and well thought out engineering ofc). There was a limited edition 7 that came with 3 rotors afaik. The same guy that sold me my 7 said he had built a quad rotor lump for a customer of his for a kit car. Must have gone like stink. I'll own another 7 one day but I must admit, I don't miss the fuel bill in the slightest :lol:


----------



## Nem

Ok, ok, so the twin K03s / K04 thing was a joke... 

We're going with a straight K04 upgrade, mostly standard parts being used simply due to reliability and with the weight saving on this car with nearly 300hp it will still fly round a track. Work is already well underway...

Paul has gone for the Relentless Pro V4 exhaust manifold, I've got one fitted to my car and it's proven to be very good so far and seemed the best option here too:


__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content



















Manifold in place and turbo installed also:



















The rest of the oil / coolant lines were then added but didn't get any more pics, all brand new lines used to make sure no possible problems with old / partially blocked lines to the turbo.

Pipe work from the Forge intercooler will all be custom made again so we had to move the boost sensor, having seen a similar idea on a Seat Sport inlet manifold this seemed the best implementation:



















With the introduction of a 3" Badger 5 TIP there had to be alterations to the coolant pipes which on the 180 go directly in the path of a 225 style TIP. We're going to a small race spec heater to be cabin mounted so still need water to and from there which these two pipes will now provide. Just to the right of the three allen bolts you can see the weld where the standard water pipe was cut and then changed to a 90 degree bend rather than continuing straight back which would foul the new TIP, this now comes in front of the TIP the same as the pipe from the coolant flange on the side of the block:










Lastly another Bison Motorsport creation with de-baffling the standard charge pipe, just been mocked up waiting for welding. Using the standard pipe and also the end of the pipe where the red boost pipe fits onto it with a swaged section inbetween:


----------



## CollecTTor

Supra 2JZGTE was not twin, it was sequential turbos. Carry on... 8)


----------



## anthony_839

nice a tight how you getting the last bolt on with that kind of bend on top of it?


----------



## Nem

anthony_839 said:


> nice a tight how you getting the last bolt on with that kind of bend on top of it?


If you mean the manifold to turbo then they advise two allen head bolts for the two you can get to, and the other is a stud and nut. The supplied stud was low quality metal so sourced another which was then cut down before final fitting to get the nut on it


----------



## anthony_839

Nem said:


> anthony_839 said:
> 
> 
> 
> nice a tight how you getting the last bolt on with that kind of bend on top of it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you mean the manifold to turbo then they advise two allen head bolts for the two you can get to, and the other is a stud and nut. The supplied stud was low quality metal so sourced another which was then cut down before final fitting to get the nut on it
Click to expand...

fair enough lol it just looked very tight lol


----------



## Madmax199

CollecTTor said:


> Supra 2JZGTE was not twin, it was sequential turbos. Carry on... 8)


Yes, Supra 2GZs were sequential (or two-way twin) while Supra 1G-GTEU and 1JZ were true conventional twins. Gonzy brought the Supras in the discussion as an example, and mentioned the twin/sequential setups being ditched in favor of a single turbo setup. Although done with Mk3 (A70) and Mk4 Supras (A80) the practice is more common with the Mk3, that's why IMO he was referring to the 1JZ. 8)

Points remained however, totally different than a true compound setup.


----------



## CollecTTor

Madmax199 said:


> CollecTTor said:
> 
> 
> 
> Supra 2JZGTE was not twin, it was sequential turbos. Carry on... 8)
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, Supra 2GZs were sequential (or two-way twin) while Supra 1G-GTEU and 1JZ were true conventional twins. Gonzy brought the Supras in the discussion as an example, and mentioned the twin/sequential setups being ditched in favor of a single turbo setup. Although done with Mk3 (A70) and Mk4 Supras (A80) the practice is more common with the Mk3, that's why IMO he was referring to the 1JZ. 8)
> 
> Points remained however, totally different than a true compound setup.
Click to expand...

He said Supra. MK3 Supra's never got the 1JZ or 1G stateside. 7MGTE fail. That means 2JZ. Come on, you know Brian and Dom would be disappointed. :lol:


----------



## Von Twinzig

Nem said:


> Paul has gone for the Relentless Pro V4 exhaust manifold.....


Just an observation, but looking at that angled cut joint I find it staggerering that this (the v4) is the best the industry can come up with for our cars. It all looks a bit Frankenstein compared to what I'm used to. I know we're tight for space but still... :?

VT


----------



## Madmax199

CollecTTor said:


> Madmax199 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CollecTTor said:
> 
> 
> 
> Supra 2JZGTE was not twin, it was sequential turbos. Carry on... 8)
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, Supra 2GZs were sequential (or two-way twin) while Supra 1G-GTEU and 1JZ were true conventional twins. Gonzy brought the Supras in the discussion as an example, and mentioned the twin/sequential setups being ditched in favor of a single turbo setup. Although done with Mk3 (A70) and Mk4 Supras (A80) the practice is more common with the Mk3, that's why IMO he was referring to the 1JZ. 8)
> 
> Points remained however, totally different than a true compound setup.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> He said Supra. MK3 Supra's never got the 1JZ or 1G stateside. 7MGTE fail. That means 2JZ. Come on, you know Brian and Dom would be disappointed. :lol:
Click to expand...

Right, right, you're likely correct! I was not living in the States in that era, so I'm going by what the Supras had under the hood for Jap/world markets. I remember one of my buddies back home with an insane 2.5 1JZ twin turbo with the high compression motor (11:1 CR or something crazy like that IIRC). World citizen here... before I settled down as a yankee. Lol


----------



## Madmax199

Von Twinzig said:


> Just an observation, but looking at that angled cut joint I find it staggerering that this (the v4) is the *best* the industry can come up with for our cars. It all looks a bit Frankenstein compared to what I'm used to. I know we're tight for space but still... :?
> 
> VT


Best is subjective! The v4 is relatively new and unproven, the gold standard (at least across the pond) with high HP hybrids is still a reworked cast JBS-clone manifold. Flow and longevity with reasonable EGT. [smiley=book2.gif]


----------



## Matt B

Von Twinzig said:


> Nem said:
> 
> 
> 
> Paul has gone for the Relentless Pro V4 exhaust manifold.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just an observation, but looking at that angled cut joint I find it staggerering that this (the v4) is the best the industry can come up with for our cars. It all looks a bit Frankenstein compared to what I'm used to. I know we're tight for space but still... :?
> 
> VT
Click to expand...

That coil pack harness has seen better days !


----------



## Nem

Matt B said:


> That coil pack harness has seen better days !


Indeed, but haven't they all at 15 years old. Mine is just as bad on my car but still neither is throwing any misfire faults up.


----------



## bigbison

Madmax199 said:


> Von Twinzig said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just an observation, but looking at that angled cut joint I find it staggerering that this (the v4) is the *best* the industry can come up with for our cars. It all looks a bit Frankenstein compared to what I'm used to. I know we're tight for space but still... :?
> 
> VT
> 
> 
> 
> Best is subjective! The v4 is relatively new and unproven, the gold standard (at least across the pond) with high HP hybrids is still a reworked cast JBS-clone manifold. Flow and longevity with reasonable EGT. [smiley=book2.gif]
Click to expand...

weve had a jbs style one crap fit higher egt temps than the v4 and no misfires seen one dyno to 350 wiyh a hybrid ko4


----------



## Madmax199

bigbison said:


> Madmax199 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Von Twinzig said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just an observation, but looking at that angled cut joint I find it staggerering that this (the v4) is the *best* the industry can come up with for our cars. It all looks a bit Frankenstein compared to what I'm used to. I know we're tight for space but still... :?
> 
> VT
> 
> 
> 
> Best is subjective! The v4 is relatively new and unproven, the gold standard (at least across the pond) with high HP hybrids is still a reworked cast JBS-clone manifold. Flow and longevity with reasonable EGT. [smiley=book2.gif]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> weve had a jbs style one crap fit higher egt temps than the v4 and no misfires seen one dyno to 350 wiyh a hybrid ko4
Click to expand...

Was the collector reworked, and if so to what merge ID? I purposely worded it as follow: " the gold standard with high HP hybrids is still a *reworked* cast JBS clone". Lol


----------



## bigbison

YES IT WAS WHY DID JBS GIVE UP WITH THEM ? :roll:


----------



## jamman

Nice to see it coming along nicely Nick and BB 

You must realize by now they are never wrong :wink:

Donald Trump being a prime example :lol:


----------



## bigbison

jamman said:


> Nice to see it coming along nicely Nick and BB
> 
> You must realize by now they are never wrong :wink:
> 
> Donald Trump being a prime example :lol:


LMAO :wink:


----------



## Madmax199

bigbison said:


> YES IT WAS WHY DID JBS GIVE UP WITH THEM ? :roll:


Because:
1) their reputation was ruined after refusing to admit there was any issue and then proven wrong by those who "are never wrong"

2) it was too much trouble to remold a cast that is outsourced and try to regain the lost of trust in a niche market

Look at all of the highest recorded hybrid RR/dyno figures to date, they are all achieved on *reworked* JBS or JBS-clone chinafolds. Can't argue with facts and results .... unless off course you're Jamman and forever butthurt by the fact that "you can't handle the truth". :mrgreen:


----------



## CollecTTor

jamman said:


> Nice to see it coming along nicely Nick and BB
> 
> You must realize by now they are never wrong :wink:
> 
> Donald Trump being a prime example :lol:


"Never underestimate the power of denial." You're the poster child.


----------



## jamman

Two bites in nine minutes WAAAAAAHHH LOL

All together now USA USA USA USA USA.........

OK back OT

BB and Nick please run all future ideas/mods past the all knowing before proceeding :wink:


----------



## bigbison

Madmax199 said:


> bigbison said:
> 
> 
> 
> YES IT WAS WHY DID JBS GIVE UP WITH THEM ? :roll:
> 
> 
> 
> Because:
> 1) their reputation was ruined after refusing to admit there was any issue and then proven wrong by those who "are never wrong"
> 
> 2) it was too much trouble to remold a cast that is outsourced and try to regain the lost of trust in a niche market
> 
> Look at all of the highest recorded hybrid RR/dyno figures to date, they are all achieved on *reworked* JBS or JBS-clone chinafolds. Can't argue with facts and results .... unless off course you're Jamman and forever butthurt by the fact that "you can't handle the truth". :mrgreen:
Click to expand...

what torque figure ? hbhp means jack shit :mrgreen:


----------



## Matt B

To be fair, JBS had their reputation on this particular forum after the acmurray build debarcle

Read the thread if you can be bothered searching for it.


----------



## CollecTTor

jamman said:


> Two bites in nine minutes WAAAAAAHHH LOL
> 
> All together now USA USA USA USA USA.........
> 
> OK back OT
> 
> BB and Nick please run all future ideas/mods past the all knowing before proceeding :wink:


And you're always here, never contributing info, just stirring the pot. What does that say about you? It has nothing to do with nationality. It does however involve having years of experience watching Max contribute beyond what the average poster does, sharing his experience and testing, all in relentless pursuit of maximum performance without accepting compromises. If he says it, it's true because he's either seen it first hand or experienced it himself. What does he have to gain by educating the masses about misinformation that is perpetuated by internet tuners like yourself who just repeat the status quo ad nauseum? Nothing. Yet he tirelessly does it. If you choose to open your mind/eyes, maybe you'll learn something. Your past behavior shows you have no interest and pefer to be the forum know it all with a street car that doesn't compete and therefore never proves a thing. Prove me wrong if you can........


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## Madmax199

bigbison said:


> what torque figure ? hbhp means jack shit :mrgreen:


As usual, don't just take my word for it, here is evidence for you. That way any reader can draw the conclusion for themselves:
*
Exhibit -- 1 --*
Steve (aka spartiati) which was the hybrid pioneer in the US. Front runner with swapping upgraded wheels into the K04 housings, then becoming the primary test mule/poster child for the FrankenTurbo F23 hybrid line. Below is a link to one of his build threads for his golf, and an old graph for TQ figures at the wheels (he probably makes more nowadays). 346 WTQ which is 400+ brake tq for the UK audience. All of it on regular pump petrol with WMI -- I'm mentioning this because the UK crowd tend to insinuate that US RR numbers are only higher because of availability of E85 ethanol as fuel.



Build thread
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.p ... ild-Thread

*
Exhibit -- 2* --
Jeff (aka 4cefed4) with his Gonzo tuning GTT hybrid K04. He held the record for the highest k04 hybrid turbo until a certain somebody decided to go hybrid. He is also the primary tester for GTS tuning. 368 WTQ for you.










Build thread
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.p ... zo+gtt+e85

*
Exhibit -- 3 --*
Max (aka Marcus_Aurelius, Aka the_road_warrior)

built an outside of the box hybrid with external wastegate and atmospheric dump, unconventional 11-blade RS6 turbine wheel, and custom wheel to housing clearance. 425 AWTQ which is AFAIK the highest 1.8t 20v hybrid number to date... that's 500 UK BTQ figures with 20% AWD drivetrain loss.



















Hybrid build thread
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.p ... Madmax-way)-gt-gt-gt-gt-gt-gt

Build thread
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.p ... a-track-TT

Now, show me remotely similar number that hybrids have done with the relentless manifolds and you have me converted. Steve (exhibit 1) with FrankenTurbo have tested all the relentless tubular manifolds and guess what... they settled on the reworked JBS as their all-around winner. The world is not only what happens in the UK, therefore sometimes you guys need to venture outside of that bubble before thinking it's all there is... Cheers!


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## s3tt

Hi Max.

There is no doubt the chinafold is a good manifold, but having dealt with the factory directly know of the issues that come along when you buy them and certainly not one I would choose.

The V4 , unfortunately in the Uk is the only manifold available and as a result the manufacture aren't that interested i'd say in improving it, as I think there is still room for improvement, Ie fitting properly and not choking as it seems to do in some cases. As we have no competition for it in the UK it is what is available..

As for what can be achieved..

Well here we have a V3 manifold, in the uk 428bhp and 400lbs. Mind you 28.5psi and a single run. 370lbs isn't uncommon if you want to run 26psi boost and don't mind 310bhp as it all gets too hot..

I've had turbo's on both sides of the pond and seen different results, so can only say unless a USA car could be run on a UK dyno etc we will never actually know how they compare..


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## jamman

Great post


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## CollecTTor

s3tt said:


>


How do you have BHP at the wheels and at the engine? Since you've only captured part of the results sccreen, is this a load bearing or inertia dyno?


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## Madmax199

s3tt said:


> Hi Max.
> 
> There is no doubt the chinafold is a good manifold, but having dealt with the factory directly know of the issues that come along when you buy them and certainly not one I would choose.
> 
> The V4 , unfortunately in the Uk is the only manifold available and as a result the manufacture aren't that interested i'd say in improving it, as I think there is still room for improvement, Ie fitting properly and not choking as it seems to do in some cases. As we have no competition for it in the UK it is what is available..
> 
> As for what can be achieved..
> 
> Well here we have a V3 manifold, in the uk 428bhp and 400lbs. Mind you 28.5psi and a single run. 370lbs isn't uncommon if you want to run 26psi boost and don't mind 310bhp as it all gets too hot..
> 
> I've had turbo's on both sides of the pond and seen different results, so can only say unless a USA car could be run on a UK dyno etc we will never actually know how they compare..


This must be Dan... how is it going mate?

I clearly remember the story of this dyno run on that car that produced some decent numbers (in US standards obviously). Bill posted about it in my hybrid thread on vortex right away to show his amazement, and finally agree that running higher boost than what is the norm in the UK does equate to much higher power figures. I know very well that it was an error that let the car run with this much boost, and that the cooling in place wasn't up to par to deal with the extra heat. But it proved an important point that Bill and yourself fiercely argued with me: higher boost levels equals more power (provided that appropriate cooling is in place to cool things down). I know for a fact that there is no difference between the physics and functionality of RR/dynos of the UK vs the US, the difference in results is from the agressiveness in modding and tuning... that run you posted, that happened by mistake, is the living proof of that.

On the manifold matter, there is no doubt that a welded tubular manifold is intrinsically prone to flow well if built properly. However, what is being discussed is the best solution *all-around*, not just one aspect. Fitment, build quality, longevity under extreme conditions, flow, and let's not forget response, all come into play into crowning what is the top manifold. We all know that reworking the collector merge of the JBS-style manifolds allow them to flow enough for a maxed out hybrid (with manageable EGT) -- we also know that fitment is spot on -- we know from running them since they came out years ago that they can take the abuse in the long run (even in extreme conditions like mine and the other examples I provided). All of this is the reason you find that manifold as a common denominator on all the top hybrid builds. The only drawback of the JBS style units is having to buy from China and having to work on the collector. They are all over Chinese ebay (alibaba), all the UK needs is for someone to be a supplier and handle the basic machining work (like Bill did at some point). Yeah the V4 is easier to get, but it's not proven and nobody knows what it will do short term, let alone long term if used in aggressive or extreme running conditions. Agree?


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## bigbison

amen


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## s3tt

I'm well thanks, still trying to squeeze the last bhp out of the k04's I can .. 1% here 1% here all adds up..

The manifolds china, that where supplied of late in the UK (gen2) where remade ones ie made with the collector already modified at source, that had fitment issues as well and quality issues too in the casting, there is no doubt they worked well and I wish they where still around as they worked.

As for the Uk, the cost of getting them , quality issues and then modifying the manifolds in my opinion isn't worth it unless you bulk buy personally I think the manifold can still be improved for the K04 and more can be extracted from the K04, its something I've been working on and even if it doesn't make higher figures than we currently have here 373bhp then hopefully more consistent. And when you consider the K04 TFSI on the 1.8t is a very happy turbo and makes far more consistent power than the k04-0023 hybrid of similar spec I is possible to see the manifold is a key part to it all..

I've got a couple of K04 hybrids in the US as we speak so hopefully some data back from them on a Dyno will shed some light, personally on a difference...

Hope the car's going well...


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## Madmax199

Oh wow, I wasn't aware that the Chinese manufacturers started having QC issues. That sucks and really takes away the reliability factor that made the original "Chinafold" such an attractive solution. Maybe other/lesser plants started casting them outside of the original factory contracted by JBS. Like you said, now someone would need to get a batch from one plant with confirmed quality control to make it worth the risk. I am glad I got mine a couple years ago then -- the K04-02X can never seem to catch a break in this never-ending exhaust manifold saga. 

I am glad you're still rolling and providing solid small frame solutions for the community. Maybe when I finally kill the hybrid I built, I'll jump onto the TFSI K04 camp. Are the plain jane TFSI units already making more power than the 02X hybrids, or the TFSI snails need to be hybridized as well to outperform the factory-frame hybrids? Are you also doing hybrid TFSI with conversion spacer kits?

As for my car, it's still rocking and finding new limits. My issue and big project nowadays are the short-ratio 6 speed gearing. At my spool and power level, the gearing is way too short and inadequate for racing. So building the head to safely rev to 9,000 rpm, and a different gear set is what is cooking (likely a TDI euro set).

Great seing you around on this board. Cheers!


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## NickG

If I could get hold of a K04 JBS manifold I could produce something similar easy enough. I work alongside a pattern maker who I've seen make patterns for all sorts of engine parts, heads, blocks etc. It's nuts to see, how these guys work like they do I have no idea!


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## s3tt

Can't see the point to be honest Nick. Cost involved doesn't make it worth while.

Better to get a decent tubular manifold made or buy a JBS copy and accept you will need to make changes to it and spend the money on that.. Development costs involved would be too high to make a new one up..

Max, you can still get the original ones from the original factory, you can also get cheap copied ones and also ones from the factory that made the revised versions, if you know where or who to look for they are out there, but you will have issues with all of them in some form it's just what you are willing to accept/pay to rectify.

Still presently the best option out there if you can go to the trouble to make them work...


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## Beunhaas

Madmax199 said:


> Oh wow, I wasn't aware that the Chinese manufacturers started having QC issues. That sucks and really takes away the reliability factor that made the original "Chinafold" such an attractive solution. Maybe other/lesser plants started casting them outside of the original factory contracted by JBS. Like you said, now someone would need to get a batch from one plant with confirmed quality control to make it worth the risk. I am glad I got mine a couple years ago then -- the K04-02X can never seem to catch a break in this never-ending exhaust manifold saga.
> 
> I am glad you're still rolling and providing solid small frame solutions for the community. Maybe when I finally kill the hybrid I built, I'll jump onto the TFSI K04 camp. Are the plain jane TFSI units already making more power than the 02X hybrids, or the TFSI snails need to be hybridized as well to outperform the factory-frame hybrids? Are you also doing hybrid TFSI with conversion spacer kits?
> 
> As for my car, it's still rocking and finding new limits. My issue and big project nowadays are the short-ratio 6 speed gearing. At my spool and power level, the gearing is way too short and inadequate for racing. So building the head to safely rev to 9,000 rpm, and a different gear set is what is cooking (likely a TDI euro set).
> 
> Great seing you around on this board. Cheers!


Haha max jump on the TFSI k04 bandwagon and show how much more potential i can get from mine :lol:

@s3tt do you have hybrid TFSI k04 upgrades that wil bring me to 400+ level on stock displacement?


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## NickG

That's a shame, like i say, the pattern making side of things i can get done for nothing using favours, so it would just be casting costs.

What happened to Badger5's cast manifold that he was supplying?


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## Nem

Bill only did so many as the time / cost benefit of all the extra machining wasn't worth it I believe.

I've got a chinafold sat here which we tried to modify but was still causing high rpm misfires on my car...


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## cookbot

Beunhaas said:


> Madmax199 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh wow, I wasn't aware that the Chinese manufacturers started having QC issues. That sucks and really takes away the reliability factor that made the original "Chinafold" such an attractive solution. Maybe other/lesser plants started casting them outside of the original factory contracted by JBS. Like you said, now someone would need to get a batch from one plant with confirmed quality control to make it worth the risk. I am glad I got mine a couple years ago then -- the K04-02X can never seem to catch a break in this never-ending exhaust manifold saga.
> 
> I am glad you're still rolling and providing solid small frame solutions for the community. Maybe when I finally kill the hybrid I built, I'll jump onto the TFSI K04 camp. Are the plain jane TFSI units already making more power than the 02X hybrids, or the TFSI snails need to be hybridized as well to outperform the factory-frame hybrids? Are you also doing hybrid TFSI with conversion spacer kits?
> 
> As for my car, it's still rocking and finding new limits. My issue and big project nowadays are the short-ratio 6 speed gearing. At my spool and power level, the gearing is way too short and inadequate for racing. So building the head to safely rev to 9,000 rpm, and a different gear set is what is cooking (likely a TDI euro set).
> 
> Great seing you around on this board. Cheers!
> 
> 
> 
> Haha max jump on the TFSI k04 bandwagon and show how much more potential i can get from mine :lol:
> 
> @s3tt do you have hybrid TFSI k04 upgrades that wil bring me to 400+ level on stock displacement?
Click to expand...

I'm going to finish machining my plate over the winter too, just got to collect up all the other bits I need. Rods and injectors or next for me, along with some sort of bigbrake kit


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## NickG

Nem said:


> Bill only did so many as the time / cost benefit of all the extra machining wasn't worth it I believe.
> 
> I've got a chinafold sat here which we tried to modify but was still causing high rpm misfires on my car...


That's a shame then, wonder if he considered putting the cost up to reflect this, sounds like there's a few people who'd be interested, i certainly would be!

Did you get to the bottom of the issue, as to what was causing it and how it could be rectified? The thing is, if i could get a pattern made, any issues with the casting could be rectified before it's cast, so as to prevent modifications being required.


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## s3tt

A k04 tfsi hybrid has made 417bjp and 408lbs on the 2ltr so anything is possible.

Maybe someone will have a new k04-0023 manifold available next year that will fill the gap..

The issue with China fold was always the runner 4 and merged 1&2 firing into each other if the collector wasn't flowing out well enough only really an issue when you try an force more gas through the turbo and back pressures are too high . I've got a couple of things I'm going to try in the new year and hopefully they will net some good gains. Some new some not but hopefully the combination will either make current power levels more consistent or push them higher. May fall on their arse also but gotta try these things


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## Madmax199

s3tt said:


> A k04 tfsi hybrid has made 417bjp and 408lbs on the 2ltr so anything is possible.
> 
> Maybe someone will have a new k04-0023 manifold available next year that will fill the gap..
> 
> The issue with China fold was always the runner 4 and merged 1&2 firing into each other if the collector wasn't flowing out well enough only really an issue when you try an force more gas through the turbo and back pressures are too high . I've got a couple of things I'm going to try in the new year and hopefully they will net some good gains. Some new some not but hopefully the combination will either make current power levels more consistent or push them higher. May fall on their arse also but gotta try these things


Dan, the shared outlet for runner 1 and 2 is easily fixable with porting or machining. That's why I always say reworked JBS manifold because without said modifications the manifold is basically unusable at higher than standard flow rate. Opening the shared runner outlet and porting the merge ID makes the JBS design flow enough to support anything a small turbo can throw at it. The problem some people have had with that, and there was an example on this board, is that they don't open the restricting areas enough. The collector center divider needs to be knocked down completely, and the shared runner exit must be opened up -- most cars with issues just had the colletor bored out, and that's not where the core of the issue really is.

I don't see this as an issue because it is known going in this project. Having improper fitment, QC, or casting material and procedure would be a different story.

Here you can see in mine that beside boring out the collector diameter, the dividing wall is removed and the runner outlets are also ported. Plenty of flow when this is done:

















The hybrid TFSI idea is getting the wheels spinning in my head, and I'm known to fold when this happens. You do offer a hybrid version of those right?


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## NickG

What manifold options are the for a TFSi K04 though??


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## Madmax199

NickG said:


> What manifold options are the for a TFSi K04 though??


Integrated with the turbine housing!


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## NickG

Madmax199 said:


> NickG said:
> 
> 
> 
> What manifold options are the for a TFSi K04 though??
> 
> 
> 
> Integrated with the turbine housing!
Click to expand...

Now THAT is interesting! So presumably it'll fit straight in, just a custom downpipe needed??


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## CollecTTor

NickG said:


> Madmax199 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NickG said:
> 
> 
> 
> What manifold options are the for a TFSi K04 though??
> 
> 
> 
> Integrated with the turbine housing!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Now THAT is interesting! So presumably it'll fit straight in, just a custom downpipe needed??
Click to expand...

No, because the OEM manifold/housing uses a wedge/clamp style head flange. Someone would still need to make something to mate to a 20v head.


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## NickG

Just read through Dans thread on this, should be bumped to the top.

Essentially an adaptor plate is required, custom downpipe and custom charge pipe. All doable!


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## s3tt

Nick,



Adaptors are available on the internet, been in use for around 2 years now and work well..

Max.

As I don't buy turbo's from China ready made, I can build what ever is required...and yes Hybrids of various spec's have been known to have been made.. My current projects involve 5 pot ttrs turbos(hybrids) on to the 1,8t and 2ltr engines...


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## NickG

Sweet!! Did you ever go with the plan of making a downpipe to match aswell Dan??


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## s3tt

Nope too expensive, custom made ones worked out cheaper in pretty much all cases.


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## NickG

s3tt said:


> Nope too expensive, custom made ones worked out cheaper in pretty much all cases.


Fair enough! Please don't stop selling the adaptor plates any time soon. Keeping 1.8L and a K04 TFSi seems to be a much nicer/easier/cheaper option then a 2.0l big turbo build!!!

How did you find it in the TT? And what are your options on Hybrid TFSi K04's for even more power?!


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## Madmax199

s3tt said:


> Nick,
> 
> 
> 
> Adaptors are available on the internet, been in use for around 2 years now and work well..
> 
> Max.
> 
> As I don't buy turbo's from China ready made, I can build what ever is required...and yes Hybrids of various spec's have been known to have been made.. My current projects involve 5 pot ttrs turbos(hybrids) on to the 1,8t and 2ltr engines...


Awesome, as soon as I'm ready for the next chapter in my saga I'm contacting you. :wink:


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## Nem

Shall we let this stay roughly on topic chaps 

I know I started it, but it was just a joke...


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## Nem

Right, some more progress...

Downpipe has been repaired and also heat wrapped, this was actually my old downpipe where the prop shaft had worn through the flexi so it's been cut out and replaced and the top flange cut and tweaked for better fitment.



















Fitted to the turbo now and all in place for the last time 



























Seeing as it was pointed out the coil pack harness wireing was past it that has now been replaced you'll be pleased to know:










Also the wiring for the injectors, intake air temp and boost sensors have all been shortened and tidied up, this was from switching fro the 180 to 225 manifold and things being on the wrong side. Also all the pipework under the inlet manifold is now also in place.



















The subframe is also back on and just needs the wishbones and suspension bolting back to it and it can go back down on it's wheels again.

Really not that much more to do than tidy a few bits up, one job is to mount and plumb in the racing heater in the cabin, but other than that it'll be tested and off to have it mapped with the new turbo setup.


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## Nem

Right, some more:

So the full boost charge pipe system is now all in place:
































































Also have the coolant system all plumbed back in with the new much smaller race heater in place:





































Just got the dash wires to tidy up and then get that back in again:










Induction system and new B5 3" tip installed along with the DV and pipework:




























So then finally after a the last few months being upgraded we got it fired up again for the first time:


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## NickG

Nice progress as ever Nick! 8)

Is the new heater literally for heating the cabin only? i.e. it doesn't blow at the windscreen any longer?


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## Nem

NickG said:


> Nice progress as ever Nick! 8)
> 
> Is the new heater literally for heating the cabin only? i.e. it doesn't blow at the windscreen any longer?


The opposite actually, Paul has modified the venting system which attaches underneath the 'toast rack' on the dash so that single side opening on the new heater will be piped to it. So it's literally to heat the screen as it's usually warm enough in the cabin at the best of times 

Cheers.


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## NickG

Nem said:


> NickG said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice progress as ever Nick! 8)
> 
> Is the new heater literally for heating the cabin only? i.e. it doesn't blow at the windscreen any longer?
> 
> 
> 
> The opposite actually, Paul has modified the venting system which attaches underneath the 'toast rack' on the dash so that single side opening on the new heater will be piped to it. So it's literally to heat the screen as it's usually warm enough in the cabin at the best of times
> 
> Cheers.
Click to expand...

That's awesome! Just what i was thinking, you're rarely cold on track, but on those rainy days you want a dry windscreen!

Great work, doesn't look too difficult to achieve either? Can you adjust temperature and speed, or is it an on/off only option now?


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## JorgeTTCQ

Amazing Nick, great work.

Cheers


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## dan-dan

Evening everyone

Just to keep everyone upto date with the bison motorsport TT we (me Dan and Adam) have now bought the car from Paul and are now using it as a track toy like it was built. So far we have done donington park and today blyton. Some small and relatively minor issues but nothing serious, when I get chance I will try and post some pictures.

Today at blyton we did have 3 other TT' s on track with us, one of the guys (Lee) is defiantly on this forum not sure about they other two.

As for the car we have no real plans in place, we are going to rebuild a BAM engine with steel rods and maybe different valves and aim for upto 400hp but no more, ideally with switchable boost so we can run it low most of the time with some high boost when required!

Thanks for reading Dan


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## 1781cc

Hi Dan, good seeing you guys today - glad the car is going strong! I'll let you know when videos are up.

Got some good ideas from your car on other things to do, but also some food for thought on other improvements, need to solve that misfire issue.

Your car looked good out there today


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## 1781cc

Some quick pics before the official ones go up:


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## Gonzalo1495

1781cc said:


>


I need some more pictures of that silver TT. Very nice. Both cars actually


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## dan-dan

Well today I started to strip the spare BAM engine which we plan on building up with integrated engineering rods and super tech or similar valves. Hopefully then move from the ko4 to a GTX turbo.

I will try and upload some pictures on the laptop now


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## dan-dan

There we go only took me 2 hours to figure out how to post pictures!


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## carspare

Nem said:


> Exhaust Building
> 
> A full 3" custom system was fabricated using a generic rear box:
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> Audi Hatchback Details
> Used Audi A4 for Sale
> Audi Q5 For Sale
> Audi S4 For Sale


oh good , amazing. !!


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