# M3 or M3 CSL



## roc888 (Mar 7, 2003)

Hi,

I am looking at upgrading my TTR to an M3/M3 CSL.

Can anyone help me on deciding which one to choose ?

Is it worth paying an additional Â£10K for a used M3 CSL over an M3 ?

If I dont do trackdays, should I buy the M3 instead ?

Can one live with a M3 CSL on a day to day basis ?

Thanks.

Alex


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## Martin_TT (Nov 17, 2006)

Just buy a M3. in my opinion theres no point in buying the csl unless you use it o the track.and it loses all the refinments of the normal M3


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## Widget (May 7, 2002)

M3


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## roc888 (Mar 7, 2003)

Hi,

I recently heard the sound on a M3 CSL and fell in love with it.

DOes anyone know whether one can buy a M3 and modify it (upgrade the exhaust and air filter) to replicate the sound ?

The M3 CSL sounds much better than the M3.

Also can anyone recommend M3 specialist dealers ?

Thanks.

Alex


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## AidenL (Nov 29, 2006)

I believe the unique Carbon Fible intake costs a bomb to buy, you'd also need a CSL chassi number to obtain it, unless you had a VERY friendly BMW dealer onboard....


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

CSL. I had a std M3. I'd takea CSL. Or a CS.

CSL. If you like driving.

And residuals. Future classic.


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## roc888 (Mar 7, 2003)

garyc said:


> CSL. I had a std M3. I'd takea CSL. Or a CS.
> 
> CSL. If you like driving.
> 
> And residuals. Future classic.


Hi Gary,

What was wrong with your M3 ?

Is the M3 CSL as practical as an M3 ?

Can a M3 CSL be used on a daily basis ?

Thanks.

Alex


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## r1 (Oct 31, 2002)

roc888 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I recently heard the sound on a M3 CSL and fell in love with it.
> 
> ...


You can't really modify an M3 to make a CSL the differences are as follows:

Brakes
Engine
Suspension
Bodywork
Interior
Rear screen
Steering ratio
Gearbox

It's a different car really. I bought mine specifically for trackdays and IMO if you don't intend to do them then why bother? It's the difference between a C2 and a GT3 really only MUCH more practical than the GT3 (and not quite as good it pains me to say  ).

Saying that I do use mine as an everyday car and it's fine - I guess it's what you're buying the car for really. If it's simply the sound then get a fully specced M3 with a sports exhaust and you'll have a fantastic car. Residuals won't be as strong however I wouldn't have thought as CSLs are pretty strong at the mo and with the advent of the new V8 M3 the standard M3 is amazing value at the mo but likely to continue falling.

HTH


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## roc888 (Mar 7, 2003)

r1 said:


> roc888 said:
> 
> 
> > Hi,
> ...


HI,

I am considering buying a M3 CSL because its a rare M3 and I believe that it will hold its value in 5 years time. Because I like luxuries, I am looking for a CSL with air con, xenon and cd player. I am worried that if I buy a m3, it will lose its value quick when the new M3 arrives.

Is it correct in saying that I should have 4 normal tyres for normal (non trackday driving) driving and that would make the CSL less harder ride ?

Where did you buy your CSL ?

Can you recommend any csl specialist dealers ?

Are there any csl websites to gather more information ?

Thanks.

Alex


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## r1 (Oct 31, 2002)

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/forum.asp?f=182&h=0

Loads of info there. Many drivers use the cups all year - I still have more road based tyres on from when I bought it and shall swap for cups come the spring. It doesn't affect the ride as such - more the handling.


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## a18eem (Sep 24, 2005)

Hi,
have you considered a Porsche ? :roll:


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

a18eem said:


> Hi,
> have you considered a Porsche ? :roll:


I don't think he's homosexual.


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## r1 (Oct 31, 2002)

Or maybe an estate, I've heard they're good.


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

Don't think he does 'vulgar' :wink:


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

Between a standard M3 & a CSL i'd go for the CSL, as you'd always wish you'd taken that option.

However the CSL is only available with SMG so if you're after an Auto then you need to look elsewhere.


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## Rhod_TT (May 7, 2002)

Isn't the CS a runout M3 with some easy to add CSL bits added to the mix? Maybe that's a good halfway-house between the two. Not sure what their residuals are like though. evo thought it was pretty good IIRC.


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## roc888 (Mar 7, 2003)

Rhod_TT said:


> Isn't the CS a runout M3 with some easy to add CSL bits added to the mix? Maybe that's a good halfway-house between the two. Not sure what their residuals are like though. evo thought it was pretty good IIRC.


Hi,

CS is good but price is expensive.

I would have to wait till next year for the price to fall.


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## roc888 (Mar 7, 2003)

a18eem said:


> Hi,
> have you considered a Porsche ? :roll:


I like the 996 C4S. However the price is out of my reach.

Alex


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## roc888 (Mar 7, 2003)

W7 PMC said:


> Between a standard M3 & a CSL i'd go for the CSL, as you'd always wish you'd taken that option.
> 
> However the CSL is only available with SMG so if you're after an Auto then you need to look elsewhere.


I thought SMG is auto ?

Alex


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

roc888 said:


> W7 PMC said:
> 
> 
> > Between a standard M3 & a CSL i'd go for the CSL, as you'd always wish you'd taken that option.
> ...


The clue lies in what the letters stand for. :wink:

It has been debated on here before, IIRC.


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## PhilJ (Sep 2, 2002)

Stating the obvious, but...
CSL is SMG only. SMG has an auto setting.
M3 comes in SMG or Manual.

I would recommend a test drive in both. SMG is a bit love it or loathe it.

Iâ€™ve owned my manual M3 for 18 months or so, and part of me has always wished I went for a CSL. However, the SMG, the difficult access into the rear, the lack of seat adjustment and other normal M3 luxuries has always ended up putting me off.

You can make a standard M3 sound more like a CSL with an aftermarket exhaust and induction kit.

Unless you are going to venture on track, I think an M3 is a better road car than the CSL. Therefore the CSL would seem a bit wasted if not taken on track. The M3 is also plenty quick enough. Its comfortable on long journeys, but can play the hooligan when you are in the mood. A great all rounder.


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## roc888 (Mar 7, 2003)

PhilJ said:


> Stating the obvious, but...
> CSL is SMG only. SMG has an auto setting.
> M3 comes in SMG or Manual.
> 
> ...


Hi
I want SMG as it has automatic mode.

I thought the rear seats of a CSL also falds down like a M3.

Thanks.


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

roc888 said:


> garyc said:
> 
> 
> > CSL. I had a std M3. I'd takea CSL. Or a CS.
> ...


Nothing wrong with it - it was a good if not great car. CSL more focused and even more universally praised (except by Jampott who doesnt count) as a great drive.

CSL on trick tyres may be a handful in cool wet road conditions, many owners run two sets of wheels an tyres. I know I would.

CSL can be used daily. SMG not perfect for town and 6/10ths driving, but car has all creature comforts.

CS with manual is a great half way house.

CSLs imo will have generally been owned and run by enthusiasts, wheras many M3s have been in 'wrong hands'.

Not sure about current prices, but am reasonably sure that one could obtain a good example for 30-35K - a car that was Â£60K new. Runing costs could get high - but there are plenty of forums that cover these.

BMW Motorsport spent many hours and Â£Â£Â£s refining the CSL and it shows when you cane one. I read somewhere that they still lost money at Â£60K a pop! I ran with bunch of CSLs and 996GTrs at a track day at Brands 3 years ago. I was in a slick shod Caterham R400, not a slow track car by any stretch. Through the high speed bends, the CSls were awesome (in the right hands.)

And they sound f**king great.

A real drivers car.


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## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

garyc said:


> roc888 said:
> 
> 
> > garyc said:
> ...


I quite like the M3, actually - but as a road car, it isn't as good as an S4.

And at Â£60k new (really?!) the CSL was a very expensive purchase.


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

It was expensive at Â£60K, but BMW still lost money. M division probably have more depth of experience at this point in time than Quattro gmbh, and BMWs fastidious attention to chassis development and powertrain development, really shows.

Hence a lot of car for the money now they are around Â£30k ish.

I still think yours looks conspicuously good value at Â£24K, if one had Â£25K to spend.

As for being a better road car than the M3, I havnt actually driven the S4; although I did have a MKi A4 S4 and RS4, so I cant comment. but the RS4 and e46 M3 offerd similar cross country times, wet or dry. M3 had better economy most of time.

It's long raging debate Audi S and Rs cars Vs BMW M cars and, I think deliberately, both manufacturers dev cycles are never in synch. Audi to date has played catch up and it must be frustrating when the outgoing M3 can still give the new RS4 a hard time, within the realms of it's power deficit.

Last years RS4 and this years new M3, will be closest yet.

Ones an estate and one coupe anyway, so no really competitors, aside from being sports versions of each manufacturers compact exec (reps :wink: cars).

Both have merits on paper. Torque and traction versus handling finesse and balance. Both well engineered, both capable of broadly similar road speeds.

If one wanted to do any track work, the M3 (csl if poss) is supreme.

I think med term csl values will hold out, although folk are excited about new V8 M3, the csl can still hold it's own.

Â£40K S4 at Â£24K or Â£60K csl at Â£30K? Nice dilemma. :wink:


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## genocidalduck (May 19, 2005)

I love the CSL. Probably because it is built with purpose. To be a car that you can use day to day, then be able to murder all on track. But then if you don't wish to take it on track. Then there is no point in having one.

But as for the M3. I can't help but hate it. I know it's a fantastic drivers car etc. Just in these parts it's pure and simply a chav mobile. Owned by chavs that have made enough money to be able to buy one. Simply because off it's name and their lack off imagination. For that reason i would opt for an S4.

Funny actually. Last night i was fueling up when a M3. (Bogey colour one) with big shiny chrome wheels. pulled in with M3 00 ??? number plate pulled in. Guy gets out off it. Looks in his 60's. Dressed in a tracksuit. Then i'm behind him in the que. Guy on the counter says what pump. He says" Yeah mate. It's the M3". Oh dear your too old let go its over.


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## garyc (May 7, 2002)

Ah but one only has to visit the TT forum to see that Audi price erosion has also availed Cool Quattro to a different 'sort' these days. :wink:

It'll happen to yer RS4 eventually...


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## BreTT (Oct 30, 2002)

You're all AMG wannabees deep down.

I'll get my coat...


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## genocidalduck (May 19, 2005)

garyc said:


> Ah but one only has to visit the TT forum to see that Audi price erosion has also availed Cool Quattro to a different 'sort' these days. :wink:
> 
> It'll happen to yer RS4 eventually...


Must admit i took abit off a hiding on my TTQS. But tbh if i had waited much longer i would have been truly beaten.


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## genocidalduck (May 19, 2005)

BreTT said:


> You're all AMG wannabees deep down.
> 
> I'll get my coat...


Saying that have thought about popping into a merc dealers for a little ride in one.


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## BreTT (Oct 30, 2002)

genocidalduck said:


> BreTT said:
> 
> 
> > You're all AMG wannabees deep down.
> ...


The new CLK63 is just ridiculous. Power hiked by 114bhp over the CLK55. Oh well, in a few years time...maybe....


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## genocidalduck (May 19, 2005)

BreTT said:


> genocidalduck said:
> 
> 
> > BreTT said:
> ...


Yup thats the one.


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## omen666 (Oct 10, 2004)

CSL


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## Gizmo750 (Sep 16, 2004)

Blimey - hello stranger


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## genocidalduck (May 19, 2005)

Love that CSL...Almost bought that very one.


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## W7 PMC (May 6, 2002)

roc888 said:


> PhilJ said:
> 
> 
> > Stating the obvious, but...
> ...


Believe me, you DON'T want SMG for the Auto mode as it's really not that good (even in the M5 which is SMGIII against SMGII in the newer M3's & CSL's). SMG = Sequential Manual Gearbox & that's exactly what it is, having an hydraulic clutch as against a manual clutch & pedal in regular manual cars.

Auto mode is jerky & horrific around town. You either want the fun of the paddles or look for an Auto car if that's what you want.


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## b3ves (May 6, 2002)

genocidalduck said:


> Love that CSL...Almost bought that very one.


I'm presuming that 'almost' was confined to in your head, since aside from you telling me you thought it was awesome at Combe, I don't recall you approaching me to buy it? :?

Here's someone running it in before Damon bought it 
















Back on topic, if you do a low mileage, I would definitely go for a CSL over an M3 every time, even if you never venture on track. It's more 'special', full stop.

However, if you're planning on average mileage or above, you'll probably get hit much harder with a CSL as people won't want high milers.

If you want a section of opinions from CSL and E46 M3 drivers, bm3w.co.uk has a forum with rooms for both.

Good luck
Rob


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## omen666 (Oct 10, 2004)

Hi Rob

Leather Dice replaced by Red Omen 

How's the car, missed you picking it up on Sat by 10 mins I did the full GP track Saturday


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## genocidalduck (May 19, 2005)

b3ves said:


> genocidalduck said:
> 
> 
> > Love that CSL...Almost bought that very one.
> ...


You actually asked me. When you said you was thinking about buying the GT3. I didn't actually say yes or no to you. As wasnt sure giving you an on the spot answer would have been right. But i did serisouly think about it. If i had driven it there and then. I would have probably taken a trip to the bank. Like when i bought the RS4. I was thinking about it. But kept thinking. i love it but it's just me dreaming. But as soon as i had a test drive. I had't to have it.


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## b3ves (May 6, 2002)

omen666 said:


> Hi Rob
> Leather Dice replaced by Red Omen


LOL, I'm sure my dice are at a more extreme angle 



omen666 said:


> How's the car, missed you picking it up on Sat by 10 mins I did the full GP track Saturday


Well, the mapping was cut short by the power cuts at the back end of last week, so they're going to get it back on the rollers this Saturday before I go on track with LoT. Right now it's only pushing out 274bhp, which as you can imagine feels dead slow in a car weighing 860KGS 

Oh, and it sounds like Darth Vader trying to make himself heard in a hurricane! 

Will post a full report plus some vids after this weekend.

Cheers
Rob

PS. Mr Duck, cheers for reminding me about what you said at Combe. IIRC that was during the brief interlude between me going out as a pax in a GT3 Clubsport and then following it in my CSL around the circuit. Once I realised it wasn't any faster, any desire to sell evaporated


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