# Help, I don't understand....



## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

What's with the Hillsborough thing - i don't understand what it matters if was 15:10 or 15:30
While what happened was terrible, how can it not be accidental? so why quash that verdict..and call for a new inquest.

I'm not looking for an argument, but i REALLY don't get what the families are driving at/looking for by bringing this action.
It's clear to me that both the police and the fans contributed to what happened, but ultimately no one group should be held responsible.


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

all they want tosh is people to hold there hands up and to say....you know what it was my/our fault this happened. despite the fact that the fans actually caused the crush and the tragedy in reality. its football and even worse scousers....that will not back down until they have the full truth warts and all.
(i have nothing against scousers) before someone says it lol


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## simno44 (Aug 25, 2012)

Closure mate. 
It was brushed under the carpet. A proper verdict is needed.


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## Audiphil (Oct 23, 2012)

Families are grieving and if this brings closure for them then who am I to judge


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## brittan (May 18, 2007)

As I understand, it at the inquest the coroner declared that all the victims were dead by 3.15pm.

Subsequently there is evidence from official documents that casts doubt on the coroners statement and that around 40 people were still alive after 3.15pm and perhaps could have lived.

The contention of the families of those 40 people is that the original coroner was in error in declaring that all were dead by 3.15pm and he therefore did not actually investigate the circumstances of their deaths - because he did not consider what went on with respect to those 40 people after 3.15pm.


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

simno44 said:


> Closure mate.
> It was brushed under the carpet. A proper verdict is needed.


+1 but couldnt think of the word closure while stuffing hot pasta bake into me Gob at three shovels per second


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## Guest (Dec 19, 2012)

being cynical i just wonder if the families of the poor departed are after a verdict of corporate manslaughter in so much as the police were responsible for over filling the stadium, therefore it could be argued that if they hadn't done so this catastrophy would not have happened. i don't think its a financial thing its as somebody has said.. to get closure and the truth.


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

Imagine it was someone you love, would you want to fully understand exactly what happened to them when all of the evidence points to something other than an accident? Or would you simply accept? The fact is it wasn't an accident, it was negligence and the perps responsible fo that tried to cover that up. The evidence is overwhelming and is why todays decision has been made. Finally these people will be able to get on with their lives in the knowledge that their dead children, sons, daughters, husbands, wives and friends have been treated with the respect they were due all of those years ago. which for so long they have been denied. Hopefully those who thpought they had gotten away with it will be brought to book and judged by the law they hid behind for so long.


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

p.s I wonder why you posted your question in the flame room? :?


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## jamman (May 6, 2002)

BrianR said:


> p.s I wonder why you posted your question in the flame room? :?


+1

Justice and the truth nothing more and nothing less.


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## Matt B (Apr 8, 2007)

jamman said:


> BrianR said:
> 
> 
> > p.s I wonder why you posted your question in the flame room? :?
> ...


Nice pic James. Blue and red stand together on this one.

On the original question it's about truth and justice being done which will give closure to the families. This wasn't just an unfortunate accident, it was a string of terrible decisions that lead to 96 deaths. A significant number of those could have been saved had the police taken action such as allowing the ambulances into the stadium/onto the pitch. The disaster was bad and arguably an accident but the cover up was deliberate and calculated and obviously sickening.


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## Mike007 (Aug 15, 2012)

Fellas. I think its a combination of several things that caused this horrific day. I can and do see it from both sides of the fence. 
Firstly, I was in that crowd on that terrible day at Hillsborough. Me and my brother had gone to watch Liverpool. We were at the main entrance trying to get in. When you see the news footage with the police horse surrounded by thousands of people I was in that lot. Our seats were on the halfway line. There was a massive crush and all of a sudden there was a surge towards that tunnel. I must have been taken 30 yards towards the tunnel without walking just being squashed and forced towards it. You really were trapped and couldn't move. There was massive pannick every where and everyone was struggling. Somehow and to this day we don't know how we got out of it all but we did. When we got to our seats there was loads that still had their full ticket. It was clear to me then that someone had just opened the gates and everyone went in. I would guess the gates were opened to relieve the crushing but unknown to everyone it caused much worse for those in the tunnel and on the terraces. This was my first big match id been to as I'm not really into football but my brother is and he had a spare ticket. I was in the Army at the time and i was home on leave. Two things that has stuck with me is there was loads of people who were drunk, loads. The other one was the sheer hatred coming from the fans towards each other. I mean absolute hatred. Never understood this. In the late 80s early 90s I went to Le Man every year. These were the days when Mercs and Jags constantly fought each other. The Brits and Germans would stand side by side and the banter was absolutely fantastic. But oh no not with football fans. It was bad. 
From the other side of the fence I've been a cop for 20 years now. I regularly police football games. The problem with most football grounds is that they are surrounded by pubs. Lots of fans will go to the pub and get pissed. They will then stay in the pub until the absolute last minute before then game starts then theres a mad rush to get into the ground. So you then have hundreds of fans in drink trying to get in. 
I saw this at Hillsborough. The footage you see on TV with the thousands at the entrance was with less than ten minutes to kick off. This ground was surrounded by pubs and I've no doubt that there was lots of fans who were drunk. I know they say that many of the dead weren't but thats because they were already in the ground. It was the fans trying to get in that were drunk. 
The whole thing was a terrible tragedy in my opinion. I find it amazing that they reckon that upto 100 cops changed their evidence. I don't believe that rumour at all. Never in a million years could anyone make me change my evidence regardless of what rank they are. 
I know better than most that the UK police are far from perfect and that they get things wrong. But who is perfect and who doesn't get stuff wrong. They are all human contrary to popular believe. People will and always do look to blame the police for everything. I'll be glad when this is all done and dusted to be honest.


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## jamman (May 6, 2002)

Rumour = Fact

Words fail me so I won't say anything else


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## Mike007 (Aug 15, 2012)

jamman said:


> Rumour = Fact
> 
> Words fail me so I won't say anything else


Not fact, Yet. As usual someone else listening to the press. Lets see what the new inquests bring. But no doubt you know best. Was you there? I doubt it. Do you understand the concept of policing a massive event?. I doubt it. Have you seen the changed evidence? No. Have you actually read the reports? Doubt it.


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## jamman (May 6, 2002)

I don't listen to the press Mike I deal in the truth anyone that knows me will tell you I am a very very strong supporter of the police in all areas of their work and have many friends on the force.

In this instance I believe there were major errors of judgement and outright lies told by the Police.

Have read the papers released by the Government ?

If you had you would realise what you are saying is wrong.


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## Tangerine Knight (Jul 25, 2010)

i think the argument is re the evidence being changed is that once upon a time we used to handwrite all our statements [as you know mike]

they then went off to be typed and you never saw them again

the norm these days is we do them all on a computer along with all the other mg forms and hit the create file button hence that is what our evidence is

the rumour is that the top brass not low level plods like us altered them without the anyone knowing

thats my interpretation talking to various fed reps in the know


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## jamman (May 6, 2002)

Voice of reason and talking a lot of sense as always mate 

There's clear evidence of many statements having all criticism deleted unknown to the witness.

Time will tell and the truth will come out then maybe apologies will be forthcoming.


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## Tangerine Knight (Jul 25, 2010)

jamman said:


> Voice of reason and talking a lot of sense as always mate


i try my best mate


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## Mike007 (Aug 15, 2012)

jamman said:


> I don't listen to the press Mike I deal in the truth anyone that knows me will tell you I am a very very strong supporter of the police in all areas of their work and have many friends on the force.
> 
> In this instance I believe there were major errors of judgement and outright lies told by the Police.
> 
> ...


I have followed this subject very closely. You or anyone doesn't know exactly how the evidence has been changed. As I said I don't believe that more than 100 cops have changed their evidence. As someone has also said it may have been changed without the officers knowledge as they were hand written. 
Out of everything I've written you pick up on one matter, think your blinkered. As I said you aren't privy to anything that went on except what the TV says and the press. So why not wait for the new enquiry to make the judgements instead of jumping on the usual bang wagon. You say you deal with the truth. So do I obviously. I was there in it. I know what I saw. You wasn't there.


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## Mike007 (Aug 15, 2012)

blackpoolfc said:


> i think the argument is re the evidence being changed is that once upon a time we used to handwrite all our statements [as you know mike]
> 
> they then went off to be typed and you never saw them again
> 
> ...


Hiya mate. Yes I remember the days of hand written statements. That's what I'm trying to say. There's no way on gods earth that the job could get 100 cops to change their evidence. It may well have been changed by the top brass. You could look at blaming the coroners and the whole inquest procedure. If all officers were asked to give evidence then this situation wouldn't have happened as they would have seen their statements and seen they had been altered. Still find it all highly suspicious. No one noticed that all these statements had been crossed out and written with different hand writing. Don't think so.


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## jamman (May 6, 2002)

In all seriousness Mike I disagree with just about everything you posted not just one thing it reads like The Sun's article at the time and we know where that came from.

I'm not blinkered and I'm not making this personal time will tell.

But I do think you need to read up on the papers released by the Government.


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## Tangerine Knight (Jul 25, 2010)

mike i agree and like you believe we get a lot of stick that is not justified

but i know for sure that when statements were typed that some officers said "never said that" and it was put down to a clerical error

im on your side on this trust me

like you said they should have called all officers to the coroners court then perhaps we would not be discussing it now


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## jamman (May 6, 2002)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19569749

Mike please dont think I'm Police bashing because you wouldn't be more wrong 

Chief Constable David Crompton, South Yorkshire Police: "On 15 April 1989, 96 of the Liverpool fans went to Hillsborough to watch the FA Cup semi-final and died as a result of the disaster. On that day South Yorkshire Police failed the victims and families. The police lost control. In the immediate aftermath senior officers sought to change the record of events. Disgraceful lies were told which blamed the Liverpool fans for the disaster. Statements were altered which sought to minimise police blame. These actions have caused untold pain and distress for over 23 years. I am profoundly sorry for the way the force failed on 15 April 1989 and I am doubly sorry for the injustice that followed and I apologise to the families of the 96 and Liverpool fans. South Yorkshire Police is a very different place in 2012 from what it was 23 years ago and we will be fully open and transparent in helping to find answers to the questions posed by the panel today." He later told BBC Newsnight: "My position is a very simple and straightforward one, which is that if people have broken the law then they should be prosecuted. It doesn't make any difference whether they're a police officer or anybody else."

Richard Wells, former chief constable of South Yorkshire Police: "I'm... very disappointed and angry at the way failings in my chosen profession for 36 years have been revealed, and of course I played a part in that. I deeply regret that and of course I must be held to account with everybody else."


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## Mike007 (Aug 15, 2012)

jamman said:


> In all seriousness Mike I disagree with just about everything you posted not just one thing it reads like The Sun's article at the time and we know where that came from.
> 
> I'm not blinkered and I'm not making this personal time will tell.
> 
> But I do think you need to read up on the papers released by the Government.


What so you disagree that I was there. You disagree that I'm in the police. You disagree that people were drunk and full of hatred. 
You poor poor blinkered uninformed person.


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## Mike007 (Aug 15, 2012)

jamman said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19569749
> 
> Mike please dont think I'm Police bashing because you wouldn't be more wrong
> 
> ...


I not surprised in the least that evidence has been changed. What I'm saying is that there is no way 100 individual officers retrieved their statements and changed them themselves. No way. As has been said someone else changed them for them. 
But for you to say you disagree ]with everything I've written is massively arrogant. What you're saying is i'm a liar.
I wasn't there, didn't see anything, wasn't being crushed at the entrance to the tunnel, didn't see drunks and hatred. Haven't been in the police so on and so. 
I find your comments massively insulting to say that you disagree with everything I've written. You are without doubt a whined up merchant and I will admit right now I'm angry at your lack of understanding or compassion on this subject.


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

> You wasn't there.


[/quote]

Yes, so what, so were 30,000 lFC fans and they saw something different from you. So did the latest full inquiry. But I guess you are right chap, cos you were there along with a load of liars, so I will leave you with that view (along with the sun, brian clough, and the others who hold/ held similar views) and you are welcome to it. I am police bashing in this ionstance and so I should be, indeed the police are bashing themselves over this and so they should be.

P.Smy brother was there , he was lucky to survive the gross error and misjudgement of the police, he took the decision to go to the upper stand and that saved his life.


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## jamman (May 6, 2002)

Mike I think you need to step back and calm down I'm saying nothing of the sort. 

I am very close to this subject in a way I would never want or wish to disclose on a public forum.


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

Mike007 said:


> jamman said:
> 
> 
> > Rumour = Fact
> ...


Regardless of any new inquests the enquiry has already proven the blame. The inquests are about establishing what happened to individiuals; what happened ont he day is already fact; accepoted by everyone it seems except you another copper.


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## Mike007 (Aug 15, 2012)

Brian R. Clearly you can't read. But as usual you just go baiting. Try if you can very slowly I know it's hard but read my first thread. The only bit I don't accept about the whole incident is that all those cops lied. Clearly they didn't as its already been said someone else changed their evidence. But you fail to read that in my thread as you just love gobbing off


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## jamman (May 6, 2002)

Why the personal insults ?

Very poor show


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## Mike007 (Aug 15, 2012)

jamman said:


> Why the personal insults ?
> 
> Very poor show


Where?


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## Tangerine Knight (Jul 25, 2010)

BrianR said:


> Mike007 said:
> 
> 
> > jamman said:
> ...


brian im a copper and belive my 10p worth has been constructive

i think mike is saying and i agree ,its not just the police its the ambo the club and the coroner who need to answer some hard questions as well


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## jamman (May 6, 2002)

Without a doubt there are going to be a lot of hard questions mate, I'm not so sure some are going to like the answers


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## Mike007 (Aug 15, 2012)

Correct. It's not just the police who cocked up. It's all the other agencies too. The club stewards, the club itself Ambo staff etc etc. 
when the new investigation takes place and they find out exactly what the police failed on then the Police MUST be held accountable for ANY failings they did. If senior management have changed officers statements without their knowledge then they need to be dealt with in a criminal court. No one especially the police are above the law. Jamman and BrainR you are mistaken if you think I believe the police didn't cock up because I do think they did massively. What I was trying to say is that you can't get 100 plus officers to lie about what they saw. So it must be that someone at the top changed their statements without them knowing. Believe me I've been at the wrong end of the police failing me too not just the public. I'm not some Loyal sheep that thinks the police are always right. As I keep saying read my first thread. At no point have I said the police are blameless. They are but I would rather see the official findings before I make a judgement on what happened that day.


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

lot of passionate guys here and obviously for whatever reason it is personal to some in a deep way, and i can fully understand those emotions. all mike is saying and how he is saying it, is in a clear and concise coppers monotone way that the officers that day have had statements altered..........i get that and look forward to the outcome of it.
he hasn't been ott in anyway and maybe emotions are raw for some in this topic for whatever reason, so can i suggest we don't do a mk2 section and degrade to personal insults that result in a locked thread.

can i also suggest that if certain parties have umbridge then take it to pm or e-mail to alleviate the thread of that crap.
be nice guys, wuv you all and chrimbo is days away......so behave or no pressies.


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## Tangerine Knight (Jul 25, 2010)

gaz im going to phone you and verbally taunt you

also im going to spill my guts to ant and jim about how you are a spy for the borrowers

sorry off topic just trying to lighten the tension


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## YoungOldUn (Apr 12, 2011)

blackpoolfc said:


> gaz im going to phone you and verbally taunt you
> 
> also im going to spill my guts to ant and jim about how you are a spy for the borrowers
> 
> sorry off topic just trying to lighten the tension


W H A T, SPY. I'm off to the other topic


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## Matt B (Apr 8, 2007)

Mike007 said:


> Never in a million years could anyone make me change my evidence regardless of what rank they are.


Well they wouldnt have needed to change yours, as you clearly blame all the drunk people.

You also said it was your first big football match, well if it was your only benchmark then it may be hard for you to believe that people used to have a drink at football matches and ............normally nobody dies.

I didnt go to the match as I support the other side of the city but lots of my friends went (I was at schooll at the time). They went with their Dads and Uncles and Brothers and whilst they may have had a pint or two they werent the drunken hordes you seem to be portraying. Well done for being the only person in the country who still blames the fans - I can only assume you are a detective.


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## Mike007 (Aug 15, 2012)

Matt B said:


> Mike007 said:
> 
> 
> > Never in a million years could anyone make me change my evidence regardless of what rank they are.
> ...


Yet someone else who only interprets what thay want too. No where have I blamed the fans. No where I have I written that the fans caused this tragedy. No where have I blamed drunk fans. If you bother to read everything I've written you will see that what I've actually said is that there were lots of drunk fans in the ground. How does that read that they caused the events of that day. I would guess you're just anti police. You also fail to see that at the time I was in the army. So at no point then and now would I support any wrong doings by the police. 
Clearly you don't go to many games as you say the fans used to have a drink. Wake up they still do. It was my first big game as in a semi final. I'd been to many many Liverpool games prior to that. As it was then and now fans still get drunk before any football game. Fact of life. Again if you bother to read things properly I DO blame the police for the events that day as I do also blame the Ground staff, Ambulance and any other person responsible for the fans that day. 
But you carry on thinking you know me and my thoughts. I'm no detective but its massively obvious you are. Keep on detecting Sherlock.


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## Matt B (Apr 8, 2007)

Mike007 said:


> Matt B said:
> 
> 
> > Mike007 said:
> ...


Its ok fella, I have obviously misinterpreted the intention of your post. 
Season ticket holder at goodison for over 20 years so i guess you have more experience of football matches than me - I am sure if I linked this thread to some of the Liverpool fan sites I wouldnt be the only one who is "misinterpreting" your words.
I did bother to read, and quite frankly you talk shite.
My contribution on this thread is over. I will be supporting the families of the 96, thats all I care about.


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## Mike007 (Aug 15, 2012)

Good for you detective. You know best


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## Matt B (Apr 8, 2007)

Mike007 said:


> Good for you detective. You know best


 :roll:


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## jamman (May 6, 2002)

I think someone is making it up as they go along Matt.

We've gone from I don't really like football but my brother had a spare ticket to fully paid up hard core follower.

What's the word oh yeah BULLSHIT.


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

brian im a copper and belive my 10p worth has been constructive

i think mike is saying and i agree ,its not just the police its the ambo the club and the coroner who need to answer some hard questions as well[/quote]

I get that totally and as others have said under normal circumstances I am an avid supporter of the police. Read some of the posts here if you dont believe me. What I have interpreted the other guy saying isnt that other parties were also to blame, I have only heard him say that there was a lot of drunkeness and hatred and whilst not being explicit he certainly paints a picture of who was at fault. It wasn't the ambo or the club who covered this lot up, it was senior police officers on the day and afterwards; no conjecture it has been proven. Re drunkeness , that was a fact of life at all football games in those days, but from the tone of the post you would think it was only this game and that added to it. So its a kind of covert aspirtion which can be hidden behind; the same story the police hid behind at the time. In the very least the post is insensitive, at worst it is just more of the same bigotry and blindness. We are sick of it! Hence the responses he has had. Noone wants to be regurjitating this stuff, it is way to painful and so I would ask that everyone considers their words, the potential impact of them and that these are real people we are talking about, all 96 of them.


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## jamman (May 6, 2002)

Couldn't agree more


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## Mike007 (Aug 15, 2012)

BrainR.

What I will say is that I don't want to upset anyone about this subject. If I have upset you, Jamman or Mattb then I apologise for that. 
We are entitled to our opinions and at no point have I or wished to belittle what went on. All I have done is written how I saw it when I was there at the game.
I'm not a football fan. I used to go to loads of matches with my brother when I was younger for something to do. My sister even dragged me to Man united as she's a united nut. Doesn't mean I'm a fan. Just went along with them.


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## Matt B (Apr 8, 2007)

Mike007 said:


> BrainR.
> 
> What I will say is that I don't want to upset anyone about this subject. If I have upset you, Jamman or Mattb then I apologise for that.
> We are entitled to our opinions and at no point have I or wished to belittle what went on. All I have done is written how I saw it when I was there at the game.
> I'm not a football fan. I used to go to loads of matches with my brother when I was younger for something to do. My sister even dragged me to Man united as she's a united nut. Doesn't mean I'm a fan. Just went along with them.


No worries bud. I think Brian articulated very accurately how I felt when I read your post and then the red mists descended. 
I apologise for getting all wound up on the subject. Now if everyone can buy the record please

https://itunes.apple.com/gb/album/he-aint-heavy-hes-my-brother/id581613125


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## jamman (May 6, 2002)

Already have Matt


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

all cross hands and sing kumbuya......round the camp fire. twats the lot of ya lol...........football and religeon only causes rows tbh.

i have met Matt and Jamman.............both good polite family guys, so i know this is emotions running overtime mike.
i am glad it got resolved amicable and without resulting to personal insults.........came close though lol. you are all good fellas and with good hearts, so drop it now and look forward to santa popping in with more TT stuff you lie about to the mrs lol


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## Mike007 (Aug 15, 2012)

Gazzer said:


> all cross hands and sing kumbuya......round the camp fire. twats the lot of ya lol...........football and religeon only causes rows tbh.
> 
> i have met Matt and Jamman.............both good polite family guys, so i know this is emotions running overtime mike.
> i am glad it got resolved amicable and without resulting to personal insults.........came close though lol. you are all good fellas and with good hearts, so drop it now and look forward to santa popping in with more TT stuff you lie about to the mrs lol


Merry Christmas Gazzer


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## Gazzer (Jun 12, 2010)

Mike007 said:


> Gazzer said:
> 
> 
> > all cross hands and sing kumbuya......round the camp fire. twats the lot of ya lol...........football and religeon only causes rows tbh.
> ...


and you mucker.....


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

> Now if everyone can buy the record please
> 
> https://itunes.apple.com/gb/album/he-aint-heavy-hes-my-brother/id581613125


[/quote]

Spot on, come on guys its 99p and for once an Xfactor contestant wont be number 1 and a lot of good will come from the 99p you spend!


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## jamman (May 6, 2002)

If haven't taken a lot of notuce of the charts since my beloved Weller group The Jam split up in 1982.

Except today which bought a tear to my eye.

YNWA Justice for the 96 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio1/chart/singles


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## BrianR (Oct 12, 2011)

Literally bopped around thre christmas tree when I saw the news last night. Power to the people


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