# RS s-tronic APR remap



## powerplay (Feb 8, 2008)

I visited APR today in Milton Keynes to get my RS remapped with their stage1 software.

What an exhausting day, about 150 mile drive door-to-door, set off from the south coast bright and early about 05:30, anticipating the worst traffic-wise, you never know when something might hold you up unexpectedly with the M25. Apart from some slow queuing sections however things went better than expected and I was at the services on the M1 well before 8, despite not rushing at all. A nice hour stop for breakfast and we were at APR not long after 9!

Amazingly, got there on exactly 1/4 tank, computer said average was 39.8mpg by the time I was at the M1 and was reading over 40 by Milton Keynes. That's with a passenger, full tank to start and quite a lot of slow crawling segments and 40-60mph segments with some brisk overtaking. Can't grumble at that!

APR went to work by ripping out the ECU and setting about flashing it, and - almost as I expected they would - ran into a problem as it was the very latest ECU and software version (replaced in the TT under warranty literally just 2 weeks ago which they hadn't a suitable file for. My choice was either leave them with a copy of the ECU or wait for HQ in America to work on it.

I decided I wasn't going back empty so opted to wait. Evan showed me around the workshop where among various project was JC's RS and an R8 with supercharger in the works. I was then handed the keys to a race Scirocco and told to basically go and kill some time - so we went and did some shopping and caught a movie :lol:

Anyway back to APR in the evening and they download the 98 octane version of the new file, flashed the ECU and put back. Very impressed with APR's custom made hardware and firmware for doing the flashing, too.

After a road test, car is running sweet and we set off back home. Unfortunately no chance of a dyno run, the R8 was in development on it.

The run back was uneventful, not so congested and got a chance to open the taps a few times. Car pulls SO MUCH HARDER now. Once into 7th gear at 45mph on the motorway I never needed to change, it pulls effortlessly from no revs. No opportunity on a mostly motorway and A road run home to really put it through its paces suffice to say it is very nice to have the "mapped" performance back again :lol: Average, btw, for return leg was 34.5mpg :roll:

Now I've been back for a bit I've just taken it out for a quick spin - not ideal conditions being damp and very foggy so played it fairly safe. But what is it like...?

F**K ME it's actually bloody good!! The response is instantaneous and unrelenting shove totally addictive. 3rd gear from 2krpm to redline is now "frickin amazing" instead of the stock "meh".

Is it as good as the MRC map? Hell yeah, every bit as good. No figures to back anything up but it definitely feels faster than I remember MRC feeling. 1st and 2nd gear with foot planted just whips around the dial so fast I can barely think fast enough to change gear!

Two things I have noticed, and that is (as Jaybyme mentioned) when under full load the up-change is slightly soft, a bit more "farty" and not as jarring as it was with MRC; I know APR stick to Audi's safety limits so I assume it is limiting the torque on the clutches during the gear change? I'm fine with this, especially as it a) sounds pretty cool and b) hopefully means I wont ruin the gearbox quite as quick :lol:

I've also noticed it drives much smoother in low speed light throttle situations compared to MRC map - basically as smooth as stock. This is something you'd probably never notice with a manual transmission but I was getting a definite lurch/lull in revs sometimes when it changed up in D mode from 1st>2nd with the MRC map - I actually was wondering if it was a symptom of pending gearbox failure until the ECU was replaced and I was back to the factory settings, when drive-ability returned to normal!

Again no numbers, but I'm sure APR's remap makes more torque below 2k than stock and MRC.

So for now I am very happy with the performance of my RS, will be putting back the MRC air filter at the weekend to see of that adds or detracts from the newly fitted stock air filter - and wondering if I should go for the RSC exhaust stage2 mod any time soon :roll:


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## cheechy (Nov 8, 2006)

Nice write up - thanks.

Just get them APR boys to get some presence north of Manchester and we're laughing!


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## Nyxx (May 1, 2012)

Enjoyed the read, good for you I say


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## hope88 (Mar 25, 2011)

Nice write up  I didn't realise you need to remove ECU on TTRS for remap... it was just a simple OBD plugin on my TTS but good job everything got sorted within the day though with a movie and shopping thrown in  Is it just a remap i.e not other hardware upgrades?


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## LEO-RS (Apr 13, 2009)

Interesting review there PP. Of course, I have many questions mainly down to APR vs MRC 

You have pretty much stated that APR's off the shelf generic code is quicker than MRC's fully customised code? When was the last time you drove your MRC RS? July? August? Outside ambient air temperature at that time? You'll probably see where I'm heading with this one, but my car is a lot quicker now in sub 10c temperatures than it was 2 months ago in 20+c. Infact, it's a lot quicker now in 5c temperatures than it was 2 weeks ago in 12c temperatures. Last driving a mapped car in August and driving a mapped car now in October, which 1 is going to feel quicker? Also, I drive around in an A1 during the week now and then the RS at the weekend, even after 5 days of not driving, the RS feels stupidly quick when I get back in it. I think it's a placebo, the car is of course no quicker than what it was last weekend, however, after a few days of driving something slower, stepping back into that fast car again gives the whole wow factor back again. I wonder if you are experiencing the same :wink:

My reason? APR (US) have sent a generic file to APR (UK) that was setup for a specific octane based on US quality fuel. They loaded the tune and then you went for a road test. You, nor they have any idea on how the car behaves at 100mph+, no idea how hot the EGT's are getting at 130mph and no idea if the speed limiter kicks in at 155mph as without a dyno, it's impossible to test this in the UK. No tuner in their right mind is going to go flatout on a UK road and risk their license, job, livelihood and business.

You have driven both maps, if you think APR feels quicker than MRC then that's great, I just find it hard to believe without a proper setup highlighted in my points above that it can be. You are basically saying an off the shelf unadapted generic map is better than a fully customised one.

So shall I withdraw the extortionate £840 from my bank account (RS applied tax again, same as revo :roll: ) and head to APR for a tune? Am I going to go quicker than my current MRC 11.3secs?

You mention something about APR sticking to Audi's safety limits? Has someone told you that MRC do not? You also mention that the upshifts were softer? APR limiting torque on gear changes? Did they map your gearbox also then?

APR have mapped a few RS's now, why no dyno figures, why no acceleration figures, why no 1/4m figures? The only figures we have are from a BT APR S3 that has gone into hibernation the last few months. Even then, when it did run down the strip piloted by a professional racing driver it was still slower than my S2 MRC car with some 200bhp more.

If APR are writing a better map, then that's great, I'll change over. however, only if they can prove it, I want to see some evidence of that first. Arse dyno opinion is not worth £840 to me. My time of 11.37secs is there to be beaten, APR and revo have enough cars out there now, come on guys (APR/revo if you are reading) put your money where your mouths are, all the speculation, clever marketing, dyno figures are not worth a pinch of salt if you cant back all this up with performance figures :wink:

As you are now APR PP, can you go visit a dragstrip soon? If APR are better, you'll crush my 11.37 no problems whatsoever, come on guys, time to walk the walk instead of talk the talk. I've held this record since February now, getting boring up here alone.

If APR wanted to capture the market, Arin, Keith, you know where I am, you may have Jonny on your side but he visits the dragstrip once every couple of years, I visit them once every couple of months. If APR are the best, come load your map onto my car in the next couple of weeks, let me run it at my usual venue and then we will see what happens. If its quicker, I'll pay for the map, if it's slower, take off the map and stick my MRC one back in. The publicity that you would get would be worth it for sure, if it makes my car quicker, you will no doubt get the UK market as it will provide the evidence that the best got bettered. The offer is there


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## BAMTT (Feb 22, 2004)

As a casual observer here, I dont really understand this getting a file thing ? Ok so if you have to remove the ecu a m&s flash a new set of values then re-installing the ecu, do APR uk then tweak the values or is that it

Forgive my ignorance just trying to understand, when I have had my jap cars mapped. We typically use the mappers own base map on a dyno then tweak from there using a program called ecutek (for sub 450 applications) to add/take timing, listening to the engine for det etc

Which also makes me wonder how one piece of software can be better than another, surely it's down to the individual mapper and owners needs, given the limited set of values that can be changed

Tony


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## mattchaps (Mar 12, 2012)

Great review PP, in answer to your question. IMO of course, yes you need the RSC exhaust 

Whether or not APR is better/quicker/softer than MRC or revo or anyone else for that matter, it really is a pointless argument that, let's be honest, will never get settled. As long as the owner of their vehicle is happy with the map on their car, I see no reasons why anyone should slate him/her.

Even if I had an MRC remap on my car, I'd be pleased for the OP for posting and being happy. If his car has reacted better to the APR map in his opinion, good on him. He spent his hard earned £££'s and is pleased with the results. Can't ask for more than that.

If my car was 0.01s quicker than yours in any given quote that you have in your sig Mitchy, would it make you cry and get an APR map, probably not! So please don't argue with the OP, they were his opinions, he wasn't slating your car or saying he is quicker than you!


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## LEO-RS (Apr 13, 2009)

mattchaps said:


> Great review PP, in answer to your question. IMO of course, yes you need the RSC exhaust
> 
> Whether or not APR is better/quicker/softer than MRC or revo or anyone else for that matter, it really is a pointless argument that, let's be honest, will never get settled. As long as the owner of their vehicle is happy with the map on their car, I see no reasons why anyone should slate him/her.
> 
> ...


When you go from one tuner to another it's inevitable this thing is going to happen, it's like revo vs APR, all the recent converts swapped to APR and have criticised revo but when looking at facts and figures, Jonny's car with a revo S2 tune was a ballistic missile. He achieved an 11.69 in a manual car with 430bhp. Very impressive. Will an APR S2 car (manual) go quicker than 11.69? Who knows, but that's the benchmark as far as facts and figures go, revo hold the manual S2 crown and MRC hold the DSG S2 crown, APR nowhere to be seen.

My point was more to do with APR, in my opinion, they need to start proving their cars, that is all. It would be great if PP could get his car on the dragstrip, that way, we can look past the bum dyno stories and even the rolling road lottery, the only thing that counts is the figures on the tarmac. Like I said before, I'd rather have 420 horses working well than 500 horses working poorly. Dyno's and bum dynos are only half truth. No getting away from 1/4m times and terminals.

All I'm after is facts and figures,I'm glad PP is enjoying his new map


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## mattchaps (Mar 12, 2012)

Mitchy said:


> When you go from one tuner to another it's inevitable this thing is going to happen, it's like revo vs APR, all the recent converts swapped to APR and have criticised revo but when looking at facts and figures, Jonny's car with a revo S2 tune was a ballistic missile. He achieved an 11.69 in a manual car with 430bhp. Very impressive. Will an APR S2 car (manual) go quicker than 11.69? Who knows, but that's the benchmark as far as facts and figures go, revo hold the manual S2 crown and MRC hold the DSG S2 crown, APR nowhere to be seen.
> 
> My point was more to do with APR, in my opinion, they need to start proving their cars, that is all. It would be great if PP could get his car on the dragstrip, that way, we can look past the bum dyno stories and even the rolling road lottery, the only thing that counts is the figures on the tarmac. Like I said before, I'd rather have 420 horses working well than 500 horses working poorly. Dyno's and bum dynos are only half truth. No getting away from 1/4m times and terminals.
> 
> All I'm after is facts and figures,I'm glad PP is enjoying his new map


Cool beans! One driver, two cars, same day, same location... that's what's needed! I'm happy to let my car be used, but then it's a manual and both yours and PP's are S-tronic. I feel a race day coming on


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## AwesomeJohn (Apr 25, 2006)

cheechy said:


> Nice write up - thanks.
> 
> Just get them APR boys to get some presence north of Manchester and we're laughing!


Is Manchester not close enough for you?


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## Simon H (Jun 22, 2008)

PP,
Did APR talk about the S-Tronic gearbox very much, or having it remapped as well etc ?. Is the gearbox behaving itself with your new map, and do you still get the explosion on the upshift ?. Thanks for the review,regards, SIMON.


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## temporarychicken (Oct 16, 2012)

Wow - when I joined this forum a couple of weeks ago I posted asking which tune to go for..

I've now got my 59 plate Stock TT RS. I thought, at first, that since the car has been around for 3 years now that the aftermarket tuning space would have had time to mature, and that each offering from the various companies (Revo,APR etc.) would be similar, reliable, and competitively priced.

From this Forum, and in particular this thread, it seems the exact opposite is true!

The guys I bought my car from are a revotech delaer. They can do a simple OBD-based upload with a Revo map to, allegedly unlock 410 BHP.

However, the experinces here tell me that I should not get any sort of tune without, at the very least, a before and after rolling road session.

I am also worried about the possibility of an unsafe tune - I don't want to be cracking the head off soon to replace the exhaust valves due to an overly agressive boost and/or poor fuelling settings, or even using a map designed and tested in the US on their spec. fuels and cars/climate.

Also, I don't want to completely ruin the fuel economy. I just want to tease out as much as I can without affecting reliability, driveability, or economy too much.

Sacriliege you might say, but given that this is a religous issue for the most knowledgable guys on here, should I just stay standard????


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## powerplay (Feb 8, 2008)

Mitchy said:


> Interesting review there PP. Of course, I have many questions mainly down to APR vs MRC


Hi Mitchy!
You're absolutely right, it's been a couple of months since I drove my RS with the MRC map, in between I've had either loaners or my standard RS. I totally get it's possible that it feels quicker purely due to either the wow factor (again) or colder air temp. To be honest I don't think the air temp can be having a huge affect - at least not just a few degrees, I know you're way up north but here it's still 15+ degrees in the evening. In fact the air has a very high water content at the moment (ie it's bloody foggy!) which I would imagine would have a detrimental effect on performance for exactly the same reason? I drove a couple of my favourite backroads yesterday and all I can say is I don't remember the car previously being quite as strong as it now feels. But as you say it's just my perception and no doubt I'll get used to it again pretty quickly. Also the car has several thousand more miles on it than when it was first mapped by MRC, possibly that has a positive effect also.

I agree APR's product is a generic map which they apply (I assume) to both any TTRS or RS3. Any tuner that tweaks the map specifically for an individual car must surely end up with the best performance possible so I can't see an APR car being any better than an MRC car, for the same hardware.

I certainly think yours has exceptional performance and you should stick with MRC, it's worked well for you and would be no point changing unless you could compare yours to an APR'd car side by side.

Regards my comment about sticking within safety limits etc. No I've not been told anything about MRC and I would presume they know exactly what they are doing; my comment was simply based on 3 facts - 1. APR themselves point out specifically (and others have commented) that they work strictly within the existing set of safety guidelines, whatever that might mean, 2. There have been numerous comments that Revo may possibly push things further than they should but I don't know if that's fact or just other peoples' speculation and 3. It possibly explains why s-tronic upchanges at full throttle feel "smoothed out". That's just my interpretation!

There's also the fact my ECU was bricked when Audi flashed it - was there some fault already with my ECU and it would have happened regardless of did it happen because of the MCR tune? I can probably never really know!

I did ask the question to APR (when I was researching whether to try them or not) if their map reduced the cold start fast-idle, their reply was basically no you must not touch that as it's required by Audi to warm the cats. How true that is I cannot say, but then I wonder if the fact that for the last 12 months with MRC map my car has not been doing the fast-idle thing might have contributed/caused the lambda sensor failure I had? I don't know it's just a thought.

APR do not touch the s-tronic gearbox specifically, I asked them if they could customise it in anyway they said they don't have any plans to mod the Transmission Control Unit. Gear changes are definitely affected by their remap though, the ECU/TCU must talk to each other a great deal so they must be changing things that respond to data from the TCU. Just my guess!

And I have never tracked or drag raced before, but definitely would like to do a drag race at some point, which would mean a trip up to Santapod probably next year... 8)


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## LEO-RS (Apr 13, 2009)

No, definitely tune it.

Dont be put off by my post, it's just my belief that to properly setup a car, you need to do it on a dyno and test it at 160mph. Many tuners just plug in a generic code, upload, and then play. For sure, the TTRS does not like high boost on the standard blower, the engine gets too hot and the ecu compensates by richening the fuel to cool down the exhaust temps. This in turn reduces the performance. So more boost does not equal more power. The sweet spot for a stock hardware TTRS seems to be between 1.45-1.5bar, any higher and you're just wasting your time. Both MRC and APR tune like this. Revo can be a bit more aggressive and boost higher but of course the negative is, they lose what they gain with richening AFR. A lot of it is down to the user too, revo have an SPS dongle which allows the user to play with boost/fuel and timing, 9/9/9 is good isnt it :roll:

APR do have dyno facilities, not sure why PP never got a before and after, it must be offline at the moment.

To be fair, in the UK, there appears to be 3 good tuners for the TTRS, I guess its upto you to decide. In my opinion, both APR and revo are applying the RS tax to their remaps. £840 is a lot for a stage 1 tune especially if its just a file upload and see you later. The US price for an APR tune on an RS is $899 (£562) MRC are £650 which includes before and after dyno time.

Choice in the market which is good, to be fair, I dont think you will be disappointed with any.

PP...You never mentioned whether APR get rid of the annoying cold start cycle like MRC does??


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## powerplay (Feb 8, 2008)

Simon H said:


> PP,
> Did APR talk about the S-Tronic gearbox very much, or having it remapped as well etc ?. Is the gearbox behaving itself with your new map, and do you still get the explosion on the upshift ?. Thanks for the review,regards, SIMON.


Simon,

APR don't touch the S-tronic box, upshifts still sound good, but there is definitely something different with the APR map compared to MRC, hard to really explain but changing up under load is somehow smoother, almost as though the clutch is being "eased" in rather than slammed shut.

I think I'll have to get the GoPro out and do dome driving around to try and illustrate!


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## SuperRS (Mar 7, 2012)

Mitchy said:


> mattchaps said:
> 
> 
> > Great review PP, in answer to your question. IMO of course, yes you need the RSC exhaust
> ...


Bring your car to 30-130. 1/4 has too many variables. Must be a reason why all the old Revo users are switching to APR


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## Toshiba (Jul 8, 2004)

low iq and its easier for them to spell?


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## SuperRS (Mar 7, 2012)

temporarychicken said:


> Wow - when I joined this forum a couple of weeks ago I posted asking which tune to go for..
> 
> I've now got my 59 plate Stock TT RS. I thought, at first, that since the car has been around for 3 years now that the aftermarket tuning space would have had time to mature, and that each offering from the various companies (Revo,APR etc.) would be similar, reliable, and competitively priced.
> 
> ...


APR code Sold in the uk was specifically developed for our market on Uk cars. How do I know? The stage 2 file was developed on my car


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## LEO-RS (Apr 13, 2009)

I guess you just answered that question reference cold start. I dont have any cats to warm up so I love that feature, 2 secs or so fast idle and then quiet again, bliss. I remember Doug saying something like it was only tested for when the car is new and leaves the factory and that it was pointless to have afterwards as it was not tested for again.

As to gear changes, again, mine has had a lot of abuse and the gearbox still feels as strong as ever, I love the loud bang on upshift.

I'm glad you're enjoying the car again. As said previously, I doubt very much there's a lot in it between the 3 tuners, afterall, there is only so much they can do on standard hardware.


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## SuperRS (Mar 7, 2012)

Toshiba said:


> low iq and its easier for them to spell?


More power whilst using less boost.


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## mattchaps (Mar 12, 2012)

The long cold idle was one thing that I wanted to get rid of, and APR said the same to me about it not being touched. I did wonder though as the fact that I now have a 200-cel race cat, whether it's essential for the cat or engine or it's just something they don't code out, and MRC do?


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## LEO-RS (Apr 13, 2009)

SuperRS said:


> Mitchy said:
> 
> 
> > mattchaps said:
> ...


1/4m to DSG owners has no variables :wink:

I think revo have had some bad press which may explain some changing. Still though you have some old skool like JK and William and equally Rob who are happy with their revo tunes. Also, as you say, less boost, more power, also helps.

Tuner wars is worse than politics sometimes, like I said though, with the top 3 tuners, I suspect a car length at most would seperate number 1 to number 3. Some cars are just naturally quicker than others, I suppose its just how you batter them from day 1 :lol:


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## LEO-RS (Apr 13, 2009)

mattchaps said:


> The long cold idle was one thing that I wanted to get rid of, and APR said the same to me about it not being touched. I did wonder though as the fact that I now have a 200-cel race cat, whether it's essential for the cat or engine or it's just something they don't code out, and MRC do?


I was told it was a test they done before it left the factory but afterwards there was no requirement. However, admittedly I may have been told that because I have no cats so nothing to warm up.


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## SuperRS (Mar 7, 2012)

During the cold idle process the intake manifolds tumble flaps come into play! They work togwther

I agree with most of what you say but unless your car and another runs down the same strip at the same with they same tyres, load and pressures it's a pointless exercise as a small time difference between the two won't be conclusive.

Hence why I say 30-130, takes the gearbox and tyres etc out of the equation and really highlights who has the stronger motor.


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## LEO-RS (Apr 13, 2009)

SuperRS said:


> During the cold idle process the intake manifolds tumble flaps come into play! They work togwther
> 
> I agree with most of what you say but unless your car and another runs down the same strip at the same with they same tyres, load and pressures it's a pointless exercise as a small time difference between the two won't be conclusive.
> 
> Hence why I say 30-130, takes the gearbox and tyres etc out of the equation and really highlights who has the stronger motor.


I'll try and pop down next year, as you said, same day, same temps, same surface is the best comparison


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## jaybyme (Mar 10, 2010)

You will have no problems, the early manuals are much easier to tune,as far as I know it's just later stronics that cause problems.

Hope your car runs without problems PP,especially if Audi loaded the latest software.
APR also told me they did not alter anything on the gearbox map,but personally I didn't like the gear changes,
As far as I know,there's some testing going on,so hopefully there will be some updates soon,then maybe I can test the map properly on the Autobahns.


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## Simon H (Jun 22, 2008)

powerplay said:


> Simon H said:
> 
> 
> > PP,
> ...


Thanks Mate,
Keep us posted as you go along, really interested, regards, SIMON.


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## powerplay (Feb 8, 2008)

Put the gopro in the car tonight to try and record what the APR map is like. Sorry for the quality it's a bit poor, I'll use my iphone next time, it's clearer!!

Make of it what you will, the power is definitely there but I'm now not convinced I like the way it changes gear, sometimes its ok but under full throttle it does change up differently to stock, almost like it does it in 2 steps - not sure how to explain it really, what do you think?

I'll see how it goes for a few days but I might yet go back to MRC, undecided at the moment


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## LEO-RS (Apr 13, 2009)

Mate, your video is more than clear, I'm not just saying it because its another tuners map, if that was an MRC map I would say exactly the same thing, those upshifts are shocking  They will be losing you time without a doubt, it's like a fuel cut on and off to limit the torque rather than an instantaneous change, that double hop that is happening is going to hurt in an acceleration test/dragstrip no doubts about it.

Look at my videos and see/listen how quick the gearchange is (if you can through the annoying dance music)..











Your double step change is slow, that would get right on my tits, I think APR need to go back to the drawing board and sort that out. Jay complained of the same thing, are they pushing out manual files on the DSG cars I wonder?


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## Mule (Jul 12, 2010)

No it wouldnt....

Since engine + gearratios is what acc. a car, then same type of car with same driver+ passenger in only one gear would make for the best map.

5th gear 30-130 would be the way to do it.



SuperRS said:


> During the cold idle process the intake manifolds tumble flaps come into play! They work togwther
> 
> I agree with most of what you say but unless your car and another runs down the same strip at the same with they same tyres, load and pressures it's a pointless exercise as a small time difference between the two won't be conclusive.
> 
> Hence why I say 30-130, takes the gearbox and tyres etc out of the equation and really highlights who has the stronger motor.


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## Simon H (Jun 22, 2008)

Powerplay, 
No, thats not right at all. It doesnt even sound like a double clutch transmission, it sounds like a lazy true auto. I agree with Craig, that will lose you time on the gearchange, and that is what the S-Tronic is all about. If it were me, i would speak to APR again, and see what they say, and just to give them a chance to sort it out. I remember when i Bluefinned my TTS S-Tronic, it had a wierd clutch slip going on at around 4krpm, that i noticed straight away, i never got to the bottom of it, as i removed the map, and then sold the car. So, niggles do happen, but i would be straight on the phione to sort that out. I think i would rather have the standard map, and peace of mind, than wonder forever more, whats going on with that gearchange. Im sure APR will sort that out. Regards, SIMON.


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## temporarychicken (Oct 16, 2012)

powerplay said:


> Put the gopro in the car tonight to try and record what the APR map is like. Sorry for the quality it's a bit poor, I'll use my iphone next time, it's clearer!!
> 
> Make of it what you will, the power is definitely there but I'm now not convinced I like the way it changes gear, sometimes its ok but under full throttle it does change up differently to stock, almost like it does it in 2 steps - not sure how to explain it really, what do you think?
> 
> I'll see how it goes for a few days but I might yet go back to MRC, undecided at the moment


From the clip, at around 34 seconds in I can clearly see what you refer to as "the two step gearchange"

The first step is the actual shift happening, and the rev needle ends up where it should be. No problem there, smooth change to the next gear, no jerking etc.

The second step, I would guess, has nothing to do with the gearbox at all - the gear change has happened already. I would imagine that the second step is caused by the fuelling or some other engine parameter leaning out, since the revs momentarily drop before acceleration begins again.

This "flat spot" is enough to ruin the tune for you (and it would be for me too).

If you have a diag. cable and can do an "actual value" trace whilst this is happening, and graph it on your pc afterwards, this will show you what is actually during "step two". Once you have this data, that will be more than enough to get APR to investigate in the right direction.

The actual cause of the flat spot could be pretty much anything. It could be due to the engine management deliberately backing some parameter off to ensure the smooth change, and staying off too long, or something else not reacting quick enough to the sudden change in rpm/load.

Maybe this same APR map works just fine on manual cars, where the driver would automatically lift his foot back a bit momentarily during upshifts, hence avoiding the flat spot altogether.


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## SuperRS (Mar 7, 2012)

You guys are guessing.

It could be a safety parameter within the dsg /engine ecu which is doing this due to increased power! It could be turned off but to what detriment?

There are 3 rs3's in the UK which were mapped which have destroyed their gearboxes! Mitchy is still going strong atm I was going to ask if their components where different to that of the TTRS.

The best thing to do is to pick up the phone and ask the tuner


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## SuperRS (Mar 7, 2012)

Mule said:


> No it wouldnt....
> 
> Since engine + gearratios is what acc. a car, then same type of car with same driver+ passenger in only one gear would make for the best map.
> 
> ...


I disagree. That's just a exercise of who boosts the turbo hardest from a low rpm. Any testing should begin from 4000-4500rpm to make it relevant to the rev range you drive at in full attack.


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## LEO-RS (Apr 13, 2009)

3 RS3's with dodgy gearboxes, wowzers 

*Stage 1*

http://www.crailraceway.co.uk/showdrag. ... 2011-08-21 (10 Launches) 11.76
http://www.crailraceway.co.uk/showdrag. ... 2011-09-04 (17 launches) 11.69
http://www.crailraceway.co.uk/showdrag. ... 2011-09-17 (21 launches) 11.72
http://www.crailraceway.co.uk/showdrag. ... 2011-10-30 (23 launches) 11.65
http://www.crailraceway.co.uk/showdrag. ... 2012-02-05 (12 launches) 11.78

83 launches

*Stage 2*

http://www.crailraceway.co.uk/showdrag. ... 2012-02-19 (17 Launches) 11.37
http://www.crailraceway.co.uk/showdrag. ... 2012-04-29 (9 Launches) 11.59
http://www.crailraceway.co.uk/showdrag. ... 2012-08-05 (21 Launches) 11.66

47 launches

There are 130 documented drag strip launches above that I can prove, add about another 50 onto that for private use, vbox, videos, on road etc

Gearbox is still going strong, so Audi must be making chocolate gearboxes for our RS3 brothers and keeping the good ones for the TTRS  :wink:


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## SuperRS (Mar 7, 2012)

I think it must be the added weight of the rs3 which is causing it. One of those has also done 2 propshafts. The driver did alot of street launching.

One of the others I know about was a qst rs3 and that actually made a hole in the casing!


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## hektor (Jul 29, 2012)

Those shifts dont look very smooth or fast at all.

When compared to the shifts of mitchy's car your shifts are very 2 stage.

I am sure they guys at APR will be more than helpful in sorting this.


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## SuperRS (Mar 7, 2012)

Yeah those shifts are really 2 step at times then other times it looks ok. I wonder if it is torque shedding, you can map that out via the engine ecu. But I'd be guessing.

Interested to hear what APR say about it


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## jaybyme (Mar 10, 2010)

Exactly like mine was,at least you have no safety mode coming in.
APR are definitely working on the problems I mentioned to them,Evan emailed me last week.
Far better customer service than my tuner in Germany,I have to wait ages to get anything done with them.
I wanted to try my old stage 1 Siemoneit map again,to see if that worked without the safety mode issue,then I would at least know the problem was only there when going over 1.5 bar


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## powerplay (Feb 8, 2008)

I've spoken with Evan @ APR, he did acknowledge that this is something they've seen with other TTRSs and that they are working on a solution to the upshift problem. Jay, he actually mentioned you and suggested there was an updated file you have/will be trying?

He mentioned the solution might require a slight reduction in power or torque, which I said I was fine with as that would be preferable to the slow shifts.

Timescale wise there might be a solution in a week or so, he will let me know when and hopefully I'll be able to get it updated.


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## Simon H (Jun 22, 2008)

This kind of thing really gets to me. Should the tuner have released this tune onto an S-Tronic gearboxed car, if he knew that other RSs had this shift problem ?. I remember asking a certain tuner, quite a few times, if their tune for the S-Tronic RS was ready yet, and all i got was, its not far off, i dont know wether they finally got it sorted, i gave up. The TTS i had, with the dodgy clutch slip, after a simple map was loaded, was to be corrected by the tuner, by backing off the torque, i was told on the phone, totally defeating the object. Should these things not be ready to install on the car, when all these problems have been ironed out ?. Take Powerplay now, he has to start messing around again, if he is to feel happy, and have peace of mind that his car is ok.


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## brittan (May 18, 2007)

Simon H said:


> This kind of thing really gets to me. Should the tuner have released this tune onto an S-Tronic gearboxed car, if he knew that other RSs had this shift problem ?. I remember asking a certain tuner, quite a few times, if their tune for the S-Tronic RS was ready yet, and all i got was, its not far off, i dont know wether they finally got it sorted, i gave up. The TTS i had, with the dodgy clutch slip, after a simple map was loaded, was to be corrected by the tuner, by backing off the torque, i was told on the phone, totally defeating the object. Should these things not be ready to install on the car, when all these problems have been ironed out ?. Take Powerplay now, he has to start messing around again, if he is to feel happy, and have peace of mind that his car is ok.


My thoughts too after reading powerplay's post. Evan @ APR admitted they've seen the problem before when tackled about it yet apparently failed to warn powerplay that the problem may occur before installing the map and taking his money.

And there might be a solution in a week . . . . . or so. How generous of them. In the meantime is anyone certain that no damage, extra wear & tear etc is being caused to the engine or gearbox? I doubt it.

Not the right way to do business IMO.


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## LEO-RS (Apr 13, 2009)

I'm not sure if there are differences between manual and S tronic files but may go to explain what is happening here. UK have S tronic cars, US do not.

Regardless, I'm sure APR will get this sorted.


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## Simon H (Jun 22, 2008)

Craig,
Its been a while, and i cant quite remember, but did MRC, map, adjust, alter your S-Tronic box in any way at all ?.


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## LEO-RS (Apr 13, 2009)

Simon H said:


> Craig,
> Its been a while, and i cant quite remember, but did MRC, map, adjust, alter your S-Tronic box in any way at all ?.


No, as far as I'm aware, nothing has moved on with respects to gearbox tuning. I don't know of any companies that have tuned it.


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## Dayer2910 (Apr 29, 2012)

And here is the argument to leave your car in standard trim.....PP has spent over 800 and now has the hassle of flaffing around going back and forth looking for a resolution to his new "problem"

I certainly wouldn't be happy with his current situation and would be demanding a refund with the car returned to factory state, I've considered a remap for a while now but you know what, sometimes less is more, I think I'll leave my car the way Audi spent millions developing it, not some tuner who supply something they already know has known "problems"

Good luck PP


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## cheechy (Nov 8, 2006)

Dayer2910 said:


> And here is the argument to leave your car in standard trim.....PP has spent over 800 and now has the hassle of flaffing around going back and forth looking for a resolution to his new "problem"
> 
> I certainly wouldn't be happy with his current situation and would be demanding a refund with the car returned to factory state, I've considered a remap for a while now but you know what, sometimes less is more, I think I'll leave my car the way Audi spent millions developing it, not some tuner who supply something they already know has known "problems"
> 
> Good luck PP


To be fair I had my my10 TTS remapped with OBD method from GIAC. Whilst not the most recognised brand here in the UK I found it pretty good and had zero issues.

Issues being discussed are fairly unique to the RS. If you dont feel comfortable getting the car done (I've had 4 done without issues in the last 10 years) then that of course if the beauty of choice! :wink:


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## SuperRS (Mar 7, 2012)

brittan said:


> Simon H said:
> 
> 
> > This kind of thing really gets to me. Should the tuner have released this tune onto an S-Tronic gearboxed car, if he knew that other RSs had this shift problem ?. I remember asking a certain tuner, quite a few times, if their tune for the S-Tronic RS was ready yet, and all i got was, its not far off, i dont know wether they finally got it sorted, i gave up. The TTS i had, with the dodgy clutch slip, after a simple map was loaded, was to be corrected by the tuner, by backing off the torque, i was told on the phone, totally defeating the object. Should these things not be ready to install on the car, when all these problems have been ironed out ?. Take Powerplay now, he has to start messing around again, if he is to feel happy, and have peace of mind that his car is ok.
> ...


Deffo no extra strain on the engine. As for the 2 step gear changes considering its backing off on power I'd be pretty certain that's fine too.

Perhaps they have only seen this issue on some cars and not others?

Something we have learnt with the TTRS over the years with all the different ecu models out there it can make mapping tricky.

Could explain why mrc wanted mitchys car for 2 days or so to ensure it was all as it should be.

Having seen how APR work and their philosophy to safe tuning within Audi factory parameter Im confident they will have the solution sorted soon.


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## powerplay (Feb 8, 2008)

Yeah I mostly share these thoughts.

My intention was to "go apr" after reading numerous good things, reading about their remaps online and that they are for both manual and s-tronic, plus being told in an email reply from my initial enquiry that the s-tronic is fine. In fact I've dug out the reply I had and I quote:


> My RS is S-Tronic, is the remap fine with these as presumably it would be same as you have done for the RS3?
> 
> _The APR remap has been installed and driven hard on many S-Tronic TTRSs/RS3s worldwide with no reported faults or drivability issues._


Now I've read that back I must admit to being a bit annoyed. Not only have I spent an entire day getting it done, £40 in fuel and the cost of the remap itself but now I face having to get another day off work to get it solved, whether a new remap or reverting back, plus more travelling costs.

I just hope I'm not being strung along and that what I have is actually as good as they can do and they're not working on improving it :?

Hopefully I'll find out for sure soon, but I do find it a bit odd I'm told a solution is imminent just when I get it mapped - I was in no hurry to get it done and would much rather have waited a bit for a non-buggy product; if I'd not done it for a couple of weeks more would I still be in this situation?! As it stands there was no point in me getting up at 4am for a 10-oclock appointment when they didn't even have a file suitable for the newest version of the ecu until they could get it worked on from "back home" :lol:

Still, if what Evan says is true and they can solve the upshift issue then it will be an awesome remap, so I will give them a chance to sort it. If they can't I'll get my money back and trek back to MRC for a map (which I've already paid for once!!)


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## SuperRS (Mar 7, 2012)

Dayer2910 said:


> And here is the argument to leave your car in standard trim.....PP has spent over 800 and now has the hassle of flaffing around going back and forth looking for a resolution to his new "problem"
> 
> I certainly wouldn't be happy with his current situation and would be demanding a refund with the car returned to factory state, I've considered a remap for a while now but you know what, sometimes less is more, I think I'll leave my car the way Audi spent millions developing it, not some tuner who supply something they already know has known "problems"
> 
> Good luck PP


you wont have any issues with a remap for your engines.All the issues that were around years ago have been ironed out. Get it done worth every penny. The 2.5TFSI is just a very tricky motor it seems


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## SuperRS (Mar 7, 2012)

powerplay said:


> *As it stands there was no point in me getting up at 4am for a 10-oclock appointment when they didn't even have a file suitable for the newest version of the ecu until they could get it worked on from "back home"* :lol:


This isnt uncommon. When I first tried to get a revo map done, they didnt have a file for my specific ecu either, so they had to download it from the car, send it off and then get a file sent back.


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## jaybyme (Mar 10, 2010)

After having certain problems with my car all year with various maps,from Siemoneit,I was quite happy to try the APR map.as they are a big company with huge resources.
To put everyone in the picture,I first had the car remapped last December,At the time Siemoneit said they had about 9 cars running well with their maps.
What they didn't know, was that the software had been updated after 05/11,so their normal map did not work at all.
As soon as you booted the car,it reverted back to standard boost.
After spending a day testing, we finally got the car to except the map and it was fine.
Over the next few days, I tested the car to above 300 km/h on numerous occasions.I never tried a top speed run,but ran up to 300 easily, and to 307 before backing off for traffic.
Then I just enjoyed the car over Winter,even drove to the UK and dynoed the car at RStuning Leeds with 400hp and 575nm.
I returned to Germany reasonably satisfied,and didn't feel the need to push it above 250 km/h,until one day and I noticed the Speed limiter came in at 268 km/h ?
So back to Siemoneit,another day testing and they found a file that had activated the limiter.
I then tested a new map,which seemed to work,but I had no cruise control !
I also fitted the Forge valve,and after a hard drive down the autobahn,the car went into limp mode !!
Siemoneit then said they could sort me out with a custom downpipe and a super duper map, and would sort out the cruise control at the same time.I took the Forge straight back off.
Another day at the tuners,the map seemed to work well but still no cruise control,which was annoying as I was leaving back to the UK the next day
Had an easy drive to England without pushing it,due to the car being full of suitcases,the Mrs and daughter.
Once back in Germany,I booted it and straight away had problems with limp mode under full boost,at first it would cut back under load but keep going, then after a while just went into limp mode every time I booted it.
As I wasn't getting any fast response from Siemomeit,and the normal chat that every other car was fine,so it was just mine,I took the opportunity on my next trip to the UK to try the APR map
After a few hours and a good day at APR I left MK heading for Kent,sadly the limp mode was still there,and I noticed the slower gear change.To be honest under normal driving I just thought the gear changes were smoother,but disappointed that the loud bangs were gone. 
Back in Germany I noticed the gear changes just didn't seem right,and when pushing it the speed limiter was back
Since then. I brought a new ECU,managed to get an appointment with Siemoneit to load my standard map on it ,and got my friendly Audi dealer to reprogram the immobilizer
Now the car runs fine, with good loud fast gear changes,and no limp modes,so I know there was no mechanical reasons on my car for the limp modes.
APR sent me an email to say they were testing a map with their dealer in Switzerland,and on a VLN race car,so I hope to have a new map soon to test here in Germany.
To be fair, not many maps can be tested to the full in the UK,so hopefully if a map runs well on my car,all problems should be resolved.
Now it's late, and the bottle of wine is empty,so it's off to bed


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## powerplay (Feb 8, 2008)

Thanks for that detailed summary - APR mentioned the TTRS VLN race car to me also, back in September. Hopeful to hear some good news soon in that case!


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## jaybyme (Mar 10, 2010)

PP, do you know if Audi programmed your ECU with newer software,or the same software it came with ?
My new ECU was empty, and has only had a tweaked standard map put on by Siemoneit,allowing them to have more room for tuning.
Ideally I would like this map copied onto my old ECU, with immobilizer codes,then I would have two plug and play ECU's to remap.
I could use whichever one I thought was best,or keep one completely standard.
Complicated this modern day tuning.

I'm at Audi this afternoon,having Haldex oil changed,but more importantly trying to why the car has steering wobble under braking with the Ceramics


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## Fissues (Aug 11, 2008)




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## powerplay (Feb 8, 2008)

jaybyme said:


> PP, do you know if Audi programmed your ECU with newer software,or the same software it came with ?
> My new ECU was empty, and has only had a tweaked standard map put on by Siemoneit,allowing them to have more room for tuning.
> Ideally I would like this map copied onto my old ECU, with immobilizer codes,then I would have two plug and play ECU's to remap.
> I could use whichever one I thought was best,or keep one completely standard.
> ...


Jay the new ECU Audi fitted was already installed with latest software, V3 I believe, local dealer just fitted it I don't think they did any software updating themselves.

I didn't know you can just get new "blank" ECUs for a Tuner to play with. no idea about how they work technically but I thought they had to be programmed/set-up for the specific vehicle to work with the other control units etc?

Good luck with the your car!


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## Simon H (Jun 22, 2008)

PP,
What is your plan of action now mate ?. Are you going back to APR, to see if, or how long they are going to take, to remedy the situation, or have the standard map reloaded, until they can find a cure for the problem, then return for the revised map ?. I think this could be an opportunity, for a tuner like APR, to show us all, that they can indeed offer the RS S-Tronic boxed cars, a definate, drive in for a remap, and get home totally satisfied and happy option. Im sure they will do all they can to sort things out for you, all the best with it, regards, SIMON.


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## powerplay (Feb 8, 2008)

Simon H said:


> PP,
> What is your plan of action now mate ?. Are you going back to APR, to see if, or how long they are going to take, to remedy the situation, or have the standard map reloaded, until they can find a cure for the problem, then return for the revised map ?. I think this could be an opportunity, for a tuner like APR, to show us all, that they can indeed offer the RS S-Tronic boxed cars, a definate, drive in for a remap, and get home totally satisfied and happy option. Im sure they will do all they can to sort things out for you, all the best with it, regards, SIMON.


I'm told they are working on resolving the slow gear change and a revised map is on the way, I was promised an update next Monday (which I don't anticipate for one second actually getting) so will chase on Tuesday 

I can live with the current map for now as it's mostly okay under normal commuting type use but I couldn't live with it for enjoying the performance aspect of the car so if they are not going to / can't / won't resolve soon then I will have no choice but to revert to stock / go back to mrc.


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## Mule (Jul 12, 2010)

APR are the GODS of tuning.......    

/irony off.


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## TootRS (Apr 21, 2009)

Mitchy said:


> Simon H said:
> 
> 
> > Craig,
> ...


Last word I had from Mihnea is that they aren't doing any further work to crack the S-Tronic box. If it was to progress he would want a car for a number of days and one that was out of, or very close to being out of warranty as he said he doesn't want any issues with a car potentially going back to Audi with a gearbox that has had multiple flashes.

They are doing a lot of work with their B8 S4 project car, but I think that has a different S-Tronic box?


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2012)

powerplay said:


> Simon H said:
> 
> 
> > PP,
> ...


Hello All--

Firstly, thank you powerplay for the kind words and impressions, glad to hear you are enjoying the map... well, at least until the shifting was highlighted 

I would just like to clarify that this issue is relatively new for us at APR, as we've had dozens of TTRS S-Tronic cars worldwide flashed with our remap without any reported shifting issues--two of which have run hundreds of laps around the Nurburgring.

We have every intention to resolve any shift lags and as explained in previous posts and I have been in contact with both customers here experiencing this issue. There is a new file being run on a TTRS in Switzerland at the moment, but it seems I need to expedite things by bringing this testing back to the UK to help ease some unsettled minds  Powerplay and Jaybyme, please expect emails shortly.

Thank you!


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## powerplay (Feb 8, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Hello All--
> 
> Firstly, thank you powerplay for the kind words and impressions, glad to hear you are enjoying the map... well, at least until the shifting was highlighted
> 
> ...


Hi Evan, Thank you for taking the time to respond through the forum, very much appreciated and very reassuring  I wonder if these shifting issues are only manifested in the very latest ECU firmware? I'm guessing my TT is probably the most recent, ECU wise, that you will have remapped? (Co-incidentally I had an s-tronic TTS remapped in 2008 with Giac software and that had problems pertaining to the s-tronic torque limit, which they did resolve).

Evan from the way the car already drives I'm confident once your guys solve the slow shifting, the APR map will set the bar. Think I'll then have to get myself a VBox to back that statement up!


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## LEO-RS (Apr 13, 2009)

powerplay said:


> Evan from the way the car already drives I'm confident once your guys solve the slow shifting, the APR map will set the bar. Think I'll then have to get myself a VBox to back that statement up!


Will it set the bar? I doubt it, the bar has already been set :wink:










I have some stickier rubber now aswell so pretty sure in the next month or two when the temps plummet and I get heat into the tyres, there is going to be a 3.0 and 7.0 dead :wink:

APR are a good reputable company but MRC in my opinion are setting the bar for what they are offering.

MRC remap = £650 (Customised rolling road setup, no limits, followed by on road test. Dyno session alone before/after is worth around £80)
APR remap = £840 (Generic file sent from US and then limited road setup )

So MRC have APR beaten on price by a long shot. APR charge their US customers £562 and their UK customers £839 for exactly the same file (Pretty much a 50% mark up for us Brits). As to performance, well, it's an unknown at the minute, their S3 car with 600+hp manages the 1/4m in a slightly slower time than mine with around 200hp less.

I'll need some convincing that APR are indeed setting the bar, sub 3secs, sub 7secs and 11sec flat 1/4m before I believe it please. Just then, I may, just may change over :wink:

Tuner wars, gotta love them, but facts and figures please PP/Jay/Jonny/Pov/APR :wink:

Powerplay, if you want, I can give you a loan of my vbox to carry out some acceleration tests, just send me some money to cover the special delivery postage and send it back to me when done, cant say fairer than that 

Offer is there


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2012)

Mitchy said:


> powerplay said:
> 
> 
> > Evan from the way the car already drives I'm confident once your guys solve the slow shifting, the APR map will set the bar. Think I'll then have to get myself a VBox to back that statement up!
> ...


Well, there's certainly no questioning where your loyalties lie Mitchy! You seem to be doing an unquestionably excellent job propagating the tuner war, even in simple reactionary threads like this one  Interestingly enough, neither Poverty, Jonny nor anybody from APR have posted anything in this thread regarding MRC. I think we all can agree that powerplay's butt dyno comparison is far from scientific and that the point of this thread was not to compare the APR map to the MRC map in a serious way. But here we are haha! 

Reading through your detailed list of questions hints that you've never really owned or experienced anything APR in person, but this subject has been debated (maybe too much) before between you and Jonny and Poverty, etc. and I think we're all desirous of concrete comparative data. So I ask, would you be interested in an same-day, same-place, comparison event? I know you're way up in Scotland, but I'm happy to host or help facilitate.

So what do you say? Fancy a meet at Crail? Or a dyno comparison at Ecotune in Glasgow? Let me know!


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## LEO-RS (Apr 13, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Mitchy said:
> 
> 
> > powerplay said:
> ...


Evan, I'm up for anything and nope, I'm not brand loyal. MRC is pretty much an 800m round trip for me so it's a long long way to go. With my next car whatever that may be, I'll be highly unlikely to drive 800m for an MRC tune. Had APR been available at the time at a local dealer in Scotland, I would have opted for that. There are revo dealers up here but never been a big fanboy, nothing against APR though and I've said it time and time again before, APR are leading the way in terms of development so no complaints there.

I would have no hesitations whatsoever in swapping tuner, Jonny and Pov and many others were brand loyal to revo over the last couple of years, now its APR, I'm the same, if something better comes along then why not, we all want our cars to go as quick as possible. I even said at the beginning of this thread to load an APR map into my car, let me run it at Crail and compare. If its better, I pay, if it's not for me, then load back in the MRC tune. I dont know how practical this is though with the way the ecu needs to be tuned, I understand its not just a simple upload.

Regardless, yes, I'll happy pop along to a dyno session or a day out at Crail. Revo held a big day at Crail a couple of months ago (guess who won and took the trophy as the fastest awd car there :wink: )

I dont have any qualms whatsoever if APR are the best, all I'm after is evidence as I wouldnt want to splash out the £840 you guys are after for a tune to go slower than I am now.

Would be great to run side by side against Jonny aswell, video it on the gopro etc. I dont for 1 minute think my car is quicker than his, I'm sure he would pull off into the distance, lets face it, lighter car with substantially more power and a pro behind the wheel, it can only go 1 way but as it stands just now, APR dont have anything on paper to back up how good you are (Specific to TTRS)

APR Golf is doing wonders for you guys but APR TTRS, well it's all a bit quiet.

There are 3 more events at Crail this year, Sunday coming, 11th/25th November and then it closes. I'll be heading along to those 2 dates in November, my car was flying back in February (11.3) with 2-3c ambients, it's getting that way again up here, -1 just now  All I need is warm tyres, dry track and it will perform incredibly well. Colder up here, means quicker. Jonny could well set his record up here if he managed to get up.


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## mrdemon (Apr 20, 2005)

I thought the USA guys were having APR issues already and limp mode.

to quote from the horses mouth off another forum.

"Hello from Florida! It seems that several owners of TT RS here in America are having issues going into limp mode with APR Stage I or II tunes."

So limp mode issues, gear change issues and still no times coming from any APR cars at any events, even the latest ADI no APR TTRS cars on track.

seems all is not sweet in TTRS APR land for the owners either in the UK, USA or anywhere else.

At least my old TTRS with REVO ran without fault for 2 years and posted some great times over the years I had it.

I would be mighty pissed off if I just bought a 50k car and paid £850 for a map which seems was released way way to early.
I start to doubt any one will post faster stage 1 manual times over my old car or DSG time over Mitchys  
I never managed a great 30-130 time as 5th gear is a pig and to get all 3 changes perfect never happened for me.
But I have got a 30-120mph time of 9.7 seconds in a manual REVO stage 1 car.

I wish some one would post a faster stage 1 manual time as I did that 2 bloody years ago lol.


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## SuperRS (Mar 7, 2012)

You haven't even got a TTRS anymore David.

I still have a video of my car coming from behind to beat yours after u jumped the gun with a passenger. So maybe yours isn't the fastest manual.

But I digress, none of this is relevant to this topic.


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## powerplay (Feb 8, 2008)

Mitchy said:


> Will it set the bar? I doubt it, the bar has already been set :wink:
> 
> I have some stickier rubber now aswell so pretty sure in the next month or two when the temps plummet and I get heat into the tyres, there is going to be a 3.0 and 7.0 dead :wink:
> 
> ...


This is all getting very serious :wink:

Mitchy that's a very kind offer re your Vbox. Once things are fully resolved I may well take you up on that, just to see how we compare.

Don't forget though that apart from the Milltek 2nd decat, mine is standard - even with a stock air filter at the moment. Yours is (correct me if I'm wrong) fully decatted and S2 tune, so all else being equal I would expect yours to have the edge, no question!

Still, looking at the timing from video it looks like I manage 0-60 in about 3.5, with wheel spin and dodgy gearchange, already a touch better than I'd done previously; I think with that sorted it will be very close 

What you really need is to see how an S-tronic performs when coupled with the RSC exhaust they fitted to Matt's RS. Hopefully I'll get to experience that first-hand as we are not too distant so can hopefully meet up 

Having spoken with [email protected] it looks like all going well they will diagnose and resolve the gearchange issue by mid next week, I'll be sure to update you then!


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## mattchaps (Mar 12, 2012)

powerplay said:


> What you really need is to see how an S-tronic performs when coupled with the RSC exhaust they fitted to Matt's RS. Hopefully I'll get to experience that first-hand as we are not too distant so can hopefully meet up
> 
> Having spoken with [email protected] it looks like all going well they will diagnose and resolve the gearchange issue by mid next week, I'll be sure to update you then!


Don't worry, we will definitely have to meet up soon. I haven't seen another RS locally so it'll be good to actually see 2 off the track!

Are you heading back up to APR next week?


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## powerplay (Feb 8, 2008)

mattchaps said:


> powerplay said:
> 
> 
> > What you really need is to see how an S-tronic performs when coupled with the RSC exhaust they fitted to Matt's RS. Hopefully I'll get to experience that first-hand as we are not too distant so can hopefully meet up
> ...


Chances are I won't but the car will  - APR want the car back so they can resolve the slow shifting in collaboration with APR US, hopefully will only only take a day so car should be sorted mid next week 

S-tronic issue aside, engine feels stronger than ever before.


----------



## hope88 (Mar 25, 2011)

powerplay said:


> Still, looking at the timing from video it looks like I manage 0-60 in about 3.5, with wheel spin and dodgy gearchange, already a touch better than I'd done previously; I think with that sorted it will be very close


0-60 in 3.5 sec with those problems is ruddy quick!!! Respect!


----------



## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

powerplay said:


> Chances are I won't but the car will  - APR want the car back so they can resolve the slow shifting in collaboration with APR US, hopefully will only only take a day so car should be sorted mid next week
> 
> S-tronic issue aside, engine feels stronger than ever before.


So you're basically lending APR your car for development purposes? That's very good of you.

I do wonder, given that we have a thread about someone with a development big turbo, a thread about a development exhaust and now a thread about a development remap, is anyone with a TTRS actually running anything from APR that's actually finished?

I wonder whatever happened to companies selling things they had actually finished?

In another thread, criticising another tuner, SuperRS asked how many miles of development running they had carried out testing a remap on a gearbox. Given that his own Stage 2 car was developed on his own car, it does look like everything from APR is finished off on customer's cars. Maybe he could ask Milton Keynes how much development work they do?

Or maybe that would be fruitless, as the other thing that seems fairly evident from this thread is that APR UK can't actually remap this car. You had to wait while the original map came from the US, and the development work will be done with the US software writers. APR UK do not appear to be able to do this themselves. That would worry me.

On the upside, doubtless you'll not be paying full price, given all the hassle of lending them your car as a development platform.


----------



## SuperRS (Mar 7, 2012)

wja96 said:


> powerplay said:
> 
> 
> > Chances are I won't but the car will  - APR want the car back so they can resolve the slow shifting in collaboration with APR US, hopefully will only only take a day so car should be sorted mid next week
> ...


 :roll:

Relevancy to thread??? If you have a bone to pick start a fresh topic, no need to spam this one!


----------



## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

I think it's very relevant. The OP spent a LOT of money with what is supposedly a well-respected tuner. From the opening post alarm bells were ringing. From what has been posted here, the real software developers are in the US and they are using customer cars to do development work on. My concerns would be firstly, what car did they do the original software development work on given that they had not seen this version of the ECU software before? My second concern would be what testing has been carried out? And lastly, what, if any, damage could be caused (short or long-term) to the car while it's being used as a development platform? Maybe nothing, but then, maybe quite a bit.

I totally understand someone like JonnyC (or yourself) who is basically building himself something special and APR are helping by providing parts and they are developing the car together. That's one thing. It's something else entirely to sell someone an untested and apparently unfinished stage 1 remap. I could drive into an APR dealer, like Awesome, and what exactly am I getting? Am I getting a finished product or am I getting the opportunity to participate in APR's rolling customer test programme?

Like I said, I think it's very relevant. And I don't have a bone to pick, but I do think I have a point about criticising others for a supposed lack of testing and all this massive team in Milton Keynes and they can't even do a Stage 1 remap without using the US base, all the while bearing in mind that the USA doesn't get this version of the car. They get a manual-only version with a slightly different tune and engine code.


----------



## jaybyme (Mar 10, 2010)

PP.
I brought a completely untouched empty ECU, the only software was loaded on it by Siemoneit,which was a slightly tweaked copy of my original map.
In actual fact it's very good.Exhaust flap open at all speeds in S mode,Lambda light delete for the custom downpipe,not sure about the speed limiter,but it's above 270 km/h, and hitting 1.2 bar.Not very often I might add,as the standard map spends most of it's time at around 1.0 bar under load.
Found the problem with my brake wobble,center rings are out by 0.5mm.which is actually good news as it's such any easy fix.
By the end of the week the car will be fit again for high speed Autobahn runs,as long as the weather allows.

As to tuning. In my experience there have always been cars testing various maps or parts,tuners are always having to rely on customer feedback and adapt when problems arise.
Otherwise, every tuner would have to buy cars and test each model for a few years before they could release any tuning, just like the car manufacturers.Which is not going to happen.
When I spoke to Keith at APR,I already had problems with the map I was using,so the idea was to try and test their map here in Germany, and see if the car ran any better.
Sadly there are still issues,but as you can see from Evans reply on this forum,they are doing their best to solve the problems,and customer service is very good.
I can't say that about my tuner here in Germany.
I'm only convinced that a map is good,once I've done at least 3000 km on German Autobahns, with numerous runs above 300 km/h.I'm still not convinced that any tuner can completely remove the speed limiter on the Stronic,and maybe the manual as well.

Mitchy, when was you car built and whats the full list of mods on your car. have you weighed it as well ?


----------



## LEO-RS (Apr 13, 2009)

Sorry to be anal Jay.... When I bought my TTRS, I brought my wife and kids along with me or I brought my TTRS and bought along my wife and kids with me :wink:

My car was registered July 2011, so imagine it would have been built a month or two before. I haven't weighed it no.

Remap
K&n panel filter
Milltek 2nd decat pipes
Decatted OEM downpipe

Recently fitted sport maxx race tyres.

That's it, pretty much stock


----------



## jamman (May 6, 2002)

:roll:


----------



## SuperRS (Mar 7, 2012)

wja96 said:


> I think it's very relevant. The OP spent a LOT of money with what is supposedly a well-respected tuner. From the opening post alarm bells were ringing. From what has been posted here, the real software developers are in the US and they are using customer cars to do development work on. My concerns would be firstly, what car did they do the original software development work on given that they had not seen this version of the ECU software before? My second concern would be what testing has been carried out? And lastly, what, if any, damage could be caused (short or long-term) to the car while it's being used as a development platform? Maybe nothing, but then, maybe quite a bit.
> 
> I totally understand someone like JonnyC (or yourself) who is basically building himself something special and APR are helping by providing parts and they are developing the car together. That's one thing. It's something else entirely to sell someone an untested and apparently unfinished stage 1 remap. I could drive into an APR dealer, like Awesome, and what exactly am I getting? Am I getting a finished product or am I getting the opportunity to participate in APR's rolling customer test programme?
> 
> Like I said, I think it's very relevant. And I don't have a bone to pick, but I do think I have a point about criticising others for a supposed lack of testing and all this massive team in Milton Keynes and they can't even do a Stage 1 remap without using the US base, all the while bearing in mind that the USA doesn't get this version of the car. They get a manual-only version with a slightly different tune and engine code.


To keep it short.

1. Other popular tuners use customers cars to develop the map. Mitchy in here his car was basically a testbed as was my pals s-tronic TTRS for revo, they had his car for a while. Also our manual roadster, revo used that to develop the S2 map with a air intake further.

2. APR have a team of mappers/engineers, and I have seen them at work in the UK. They fly over from time to time for development work.

The stage 1 map was already made, it was just that the ecu had a different software revision, the map just required to be adapted for the specific audi code on the car. This isnt at all uncommon for the TTRS and like I said I had the same proplems with my car, where the file had to be downloaded, sent off, and then sent back again.

The TTRS isnt straight forward to map at all.

My first map, whilst it was being written the accelerator was disabled, then once that was overcome after 500 miles the cars anti tuning protection put the car back to stock. The mappers then said they would need a few weeks to crack these issues, so at that point I tried revo. Then that wasnt straightforward either, high load misfires, and half boost limp modes.

So then waiting months on end of broken promises that these issues would get sorted I tried APR, and my car has been trouble free.

But as I understand, all the tuners have been having little issues here and there with the TTRS, it seems like audi just really didnt want people to be able to tune them.


----------



## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

SuperRS said:


> 1. Other popular tuners use customers cars to develop the map.


Absolutely, but they usually tell them BEFORE they do it.



SuperRS said:


> 2. APR have a team of mappers/engineers, and I have seen them at work in the UK. They fly over from time to time for development work.
> 
> The stage 1 map was already made, it was just that the ecu had a different software revision, the map just required to be adapted for the specific audi code on the car. This isnt at all uncommon for the TTRS and like I said I had the same proplems with my car, where the file had to be downloaded, sent off, and then sent back again.


As a I said, it's not the UK team who are remapping this car. I think that's important to note because APR (and indeed you, on their part) are making all sorts of claims about expertise at the Milton Keynes HQ that don't seem to be borne out in practice.



SuperRS said:


> The TTRS isnt straight forward to map at all.


I never said it was, I was simply pointing out that the OP was sold something that APR do appear to have known they had issues with, but they didn't mention it before the money was handed over. I'm just left with this nagging doubt that if I took my car in to APR or an APR dealer, am I likely to be getting enroled in APRs customer development programme as well?


----------



## SuperRS (Mar 7, 2012)

wja96 said:


> SuperRS said:
> 
> 
> > 1. Other popular tuners use customers cars to develop the map.
> ...


This is getting silly.
I dont recall any claims, APR is APR whether they are in Finland, UK, US, Asia, Denmark etc.

Each region brings something to the table, but in this day and age companies have to be global.

Lets get this back on topic,


----------



## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

SuperRS said:


> Look! A tiger!


----------



## LEO-RS (Apr 13, 2009)

jamman said:


> :roll:


Lose and loose is even worse :wink:


----------



## jamman (May 6, 2002)

Mitchy said:


> jamman said:
> 
> 
> > :roll:
> ...


True :lol: :wink:


----------



## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

Mitchy said:


> Sorry to be anal Jay.... When I bought my TTRS, I brought my wife and kids along with me or I brought my TTRS and bought along my wife and kids with me :wink:
> 
> My car was registered July 2011, so I imagine it would have been built a month or two before. I haven't weighed it, no.
> 
> ...


Fixed your punctuation for you :wink:


----------



## jaybyme (Mar 10, 2010)

Mitchy said:


> Sorry to be anal Jay.... When I bought my TTRS, I brought my wife and kids along with me or I brought my TTRS and bought along my wife and kids with me :wink:
> 
> My car was registered July 2011, so imagine it would have been built a month or two before. I haven't weighed it no.
> 
> ...


did it come with the brake air ducts fitted ?
If so I would imagine we have the same software.
Mines the same as yours,but with Forge cooler,also played around with spark plugs.Also just run 102 octane.
You've had no issues with safety modes, right ?
Are MRC keeping boost below 1.5 bar ?


----------



## LEO-RS (Apr 13, 2009)

jaybyme said:


> Mitchy said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry to be anal Jay.... When I bought my TTRS, I brought my wife and kids along with me or I brought my TTRS and bought along my wife and kids with me :wink:
> ...


No safety mode issues, no flickering engine light, no hesitations or dodgy shifts. No speed limiter, been above 280kmh 5-6x now. Max boost is 1.48 bar and only seen for a moment, it settles around 1.45. I've run octane booster to make 102 and managed a 124 (200kmh) terminal speed on a 1/4m (ET wasn't great due to traction issues) on 99 fuel, best I've managed is 122.7 I think so the octane booster to around 102 was giving me extra power and extra mph for sure.

As to brake ducts, haha, good question, I actually haven't checked.


----------



## cheechy (Nov 8, 2006)

Mitchy said:


> jaybyme said:
> 
> 
> > Mitchy said:
> ...


Looks like I may be going Revo fairly soon.....may see you up at Crail at some point to see the diference the s-tronic makes. I'm reckoningit could be as much as second......!


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## Vassilis (Mar 20, 2007)

jaybyme said:


> I'm only convinced that a map is good,once I've done at least 3000 km on German Autobahns, with numerous runs above 300 km/h.I'm still not convinced that any tuner can completely remove the speed limiter on the Stronic,and maybe the manual as well.


I can confirm that Shiftech has completely removed the limiter on my Manual. The car has done 10 000km now since it has been tuned last July (MY13 - 06/2012), and I was still able to do 314km/h on the speedo on the autobahn last week.


----------



## jaybyme (Mar 10, 2010)

Vassilis said:


> jaybyme said:
> 
> 
> > I'm only convinced that a map is good,once I've done at least 3000 km on German Autobahns, with numerous runs above 300 km/h.I'm still not convinced that any tuner can completely remove the speed limiter on the Stronic,and maybe the manual as well.
> ...


isn't yours a manual Vassillis ?
But still a good result for you, even better news if yours is an Stronic, I can't remember ?

Mitchy,from what I can gather, and from my experience, I think the safety mode issue has a lot to do with sensors and going above 1.5 bar.I had a map that ran 1.4 +,and had no problems,until I fitted the Forge valve.
Now maybe the Forge valve altered the boost readings,so the car went into safety ?
The only way I will know is if I can run a map at 1.5 bar with no issues and then test the Forge valve again.
PP's car should be fixed in the next day or so,so hopefully I will have a map to test again soon.


----------



## LEO-RS (Apr 13, 2009)

jaybyme said:


> Vassilis said:
> 
> 
> > jaybyme said:
> ...


More boost does not equal more power fella, what is the fascination with running above 1.5bar? The laws of physics dictates that when pressure increases so does temperature. 1.5bar boost will have hotter EGT's than 1.4bar boost. It's EGT's that you need to manage in this engine.

I dont think APR boost 1.5bar+ either.

Also, it doesnt matter what version ECU is installed in the car, as soon as it's cracked, it's cracked. The only differences are the encryption on the ECU's from year to year. As soon as you're past that, then a 2009 ECU is the same as a 2012 ECU.

There really is no need to boost at 1.5+ bar though, it's like robbing Peter to pay Paul, give with 1 hand (Boost), take away with another (AFR)

Let us know how you get on though as your experiences with the maps are interesting.


----------



## Vassilis (Mar 20, 2007)

jaybyme said:


> Vassilis said:
> 
> 
> > jaybyme said:
> ...


Mine is a manual, but it might be worth it to send them some email and ask if they also found the fix for your Stronic. My friend who has a 2012 Stronic and also got it mapped at Shiftech doesn't have any vmax issues, but he has only done 3500km since the map.


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## Vassilis (Mar 20, 2007)

Mitchy said:


> Also, it doesnt matter what version ECU is installed in the car, as soon as it's cracked, it's cracked. The only differences are the encryption on the ECU's from year to year. As soon as you're past that, then a 2009 ECU is the same as a 2012 ECU.


That's not what different tuners I talked to told me. Apparently, on top of the encryption, the MY11/12/13 ECUs also have some updated learning algorithm which will learn after ca. 3000km and set the vmax back to default if it has been modified. That's the issue Jay is talking about, and only few tuners are able to fix it.


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## LEO-RS (Apr 13, 2009)

Vassilis said:


> Mitchy said:
> 
> 
> > Also, it doesnt matter what version ECU is installed in the car, as soon as it's cracked, it's cracked. The only differences are the encryption on the ECU's from year to year. As soon as you're past that, then a 2009 ECU is the same as a 2012 ECU.
> ...


Oh okay, I wasnt aware of that, thanks. Not had a problem with mine resetting which is a bonus.


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2012)

powerplay said:


> Evan from the way the car already drives I'm confident once your guys solve the slow shifting, the APR map will set the bar. Think I'll then have to get myself a VBox to back that statement up!


I hope you don't mind PP; As part of the verification process to ensure the calibration with the shifting improvements performed as well or better than the current remap, we datalogged, dynoed and got some Vbox times. I hope this is what you mean by setting the bar.... in a stage 1 car... with road tyres 










FYI the old remap averaged a 0-60 of 3.4 seconds and a 0-100 of 8.4 seconds. There's some serious time to be made up with these shifting fixes and S-tronic boxes...can't wait to see stage 3, S-Tronic cars  Oh, and your car is ready. I'm arranging a delivery for you tomorrow.


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## hope88 (Mar 25, 2011)

3.1 seconds to 60! wow.....  Nice one!


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## LEO-RS (Apr 13, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> powerplay said:
> 
> 
> > Evan from the way the car already drives I'm confident once your guys solve the slow shifting, the APR map will set the bar. Think I'll then have to get myself a VBox to back that statement up!
> ...


Good figures, but that bar has already been set  3.1 and 7.2 on Michelin PS2 a year or so ago now. Haven't tried on Maxx race yet 

Vbox figures are a good start but would be great if PP could get that done on a dragstrip. Good efforts though, those are quick times, your S1 car cant be that far off your S3 car 0-100 now.


----------



## Mule (Jul 12, 2010)

Yes....Stg3 has halted since the lack of engine delivery from Audi.


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## jamman (May 6, 2002)

How old are you lot?

All this bitching is hilarious, keep it up. :roll: :lol:

Looks like they have sorted the issues big time PP enjoy the car when you collect it.


----------



## LEO-RS (Apr 13, 2009)

What bitching is that Jamman, you have an addictive fascination with the Mk2 section these days, you swapping over :roll: :wink:



Mule said:


> Yes....Stg3 has halted since the lack of engine delivery from Audi.


?????

Are you talking about Jonny? He has a race spec strengthened unit does he not? There wouldnt be any point getting another one from Audi if there was a problem, surely he would just rebuild it? Last time I raised the timeline with Keith, he reckoned February before the final product would be here due to a lot of delays with some of the external hardware, it's only November so still a few months off yet.


----------



## jamman (May 6, 2002)

Love the RS Mitchy went round the track in the TTS green thing at ADI stunning car.

Got to laugh any thread with APR in the title and all the usual suspects are in the mix biatching, I love it hilarious :wink: :lol:

PS Does he ever talk about anything else but Jonny it's worrying :lol:


----------



## LEO-RS (Apr 13, 2009)

jamman said:


> Love the RS Mitchy went round the track in the TTS green thing at ADI stunning car.
> 
> Got to laugh any thread with APR in the title and all the usual suspects are in the mix biatching, I love it hilarious :wink: :lol:
> 
> PS Does he ever talk about anything else but Jonny it's worrying :lol:


It was always going to turn this way with a tuner vs tuner comparison, they always do. Give APR credit though, some tasty figures there to go on, they're nearly touching that bar with them, but not quite. If PP removes his cat in the downpipe, that may well give him that better mid range to match my times. Looks good tho, no complaints, I like figures haha 

If you get an RS in the future Jamman, make sure it's an S-tronic version, the way ahead clearly :wink:


----------



## jamman (May 6, 2002)

Mitchy said:


> Looks good tho, no complaints, I like figures haha


I would never have guessed :wink: 

Ps Way toooo old school for that button/paddle stuff but I get your point and the numbers certainly do speak for themselves.


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2012)

Mitchy said:


> Good figures, but that bar has already been set  3.1 and 7.2 on Michelin PS2 a year or so ago now. Haven't tried on Maxx race yet


Silly me thinking you had the fastest, non-BT, road-going TTRS and we had your 0-60 beat with our stage one pushing a 3.1 (which I see you've edited in your signature from 3.3 to 3.1 since my post) 

Here's to hoping PP moves for a decat/sports cat exhaust and we can improve those mid-range times. [smiley=cheers.gif]


----------



## LEO-RS (Apr 13, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Mitchy said:
> 
> 
> > Good figures, but that bar has already been set  3.1 and 7.2 on Michelin PS2 a year or so ago now. Haven't tried on Maxx race yet
> ...


My signature was just needing updated Evan, this run was done last December, poor quality photo but you can make out the 3.1/7.2 and the 4.1 difference between 60-100.










Close, you've matched the 60 and nearly there on the 100, just need that cat removed for improvements in the 60-100 range. Certainly little rocket ships these little TT's :wink:


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2012)

Indeed! Not bad for a "generic map ported from US code" eh?


----------



## Joerek (Oct 24, 2008)

This S-tronic remap (stage 2, I got the milltek tbe) also available in The Netherlands? And any warranty support for that matter?


----------



## mattchaps (Mar 12, 2012)

I'm hopefully going up to APR this afternoon. Evan, if you have that V-Box, keep it to hand....


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2012)

Joerek said:


> This S-tronic remap (stage 2, I got the milltek tbe) also available in The Netherlands? And any warranty support for that matter?


Yes. This is our stage 1 remap for the S-tronic Joerek. Please contact APR Netherlands for arrangements here: http://jerodesign.com/

Not sure what warranty support you're looking for? I doubt any remaps are covered under BENELUX Audi Dealerships though.



mattchaps said:


> I'm hopefully going up to APR this afternoon. Evan, if you have that V-Box, keep it to hand....


Matt, I'll have it here waiting and ready


----------



## powerplay (Feb 8, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> I hope you don't mind PP; As part of the verification process to ensure the calibration with the shifting improvements performed as well or better than the current remap, we datalogged, dynoed and got some Vbox times. I hope this is what you mean by setting the bar.... in a stage 1 car... with road tyres
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great result Evan looks like you were enjoying the car last night :lol:

Looking forward to getting the TT back later! Big thumbs up and sincere thanks for solving things so quickly.

Hope to get a look at Mattchaps' RSC system in the near future, pretty sure with that I could match Mitchy, maybe even see a 3.0? 

One things for sure, will be going to Santa Pod sometime to find out


----------



## mattchaps (Mar 12, 2012)

I think I need the GoPro too!


----------



## LEO-RS (Apr 13, 2009)

mattchaps said:


> I'm hopefully going up to APR this afternoon. Evan, if you have that V-Box, keep it to hand....


Manual transmission cars need not apply :wink: Having had both manual and S tronic, the S tronic is effortless and in the league above. You'll probably find at best with good launch and shifts, 8.5 0-100. Still very fast but not in the same bracket as us with the cool gearboxes 

Will be good to see though how much difference there is with just the transmission and launch control difference. Pretty sure an 8.5sec 0-100 is the accepted S2 manual time in the TTRS world.

Evan... Do you think there are any benefits at all in tuning the S tronic box? I see you've sorted the shift but I suspect this was done purely through engine mapping. Do you see any scope for improving times by tweaking the gearbox ecu? Higher launch revs, quicker shifts etc?


----------



## mattchaps (Mar 12, 2012)

Mitchy said:


> Manual transmission cars need not apply :wink: Having had both manual and S tronic, the S tronic is effortless and in the league above. You'll probably find at best with good launch and shifts, 8.5 0-100. Still very fast but not in the same bracket as us with the cool gearboxes
> 
> Will be good to see though how much difference there is with just the transmission and launch control difference. Pretty sure an 8.5sec 0-100 is the accepted S2 manual time in the TTRS world.


I'm never one to not have a go though!


----------



## LEO-RS (Apr 13, 2009)

mattchaps said:


> Mitchy said:
> 
> 
> > Manual transmission cars need not apply :wink: Having had both manual and S tronic, the S tronic is effortless and in the league above. You'll probably find at best with good launch and shifts, 8.5 0-100. Still very fast but not in the same bracket as us with the cool gearboxes
> ...


True, it is an art to shift the gearbox within an inch of its life, I enjoyed it, you really need to be quite brutal with the throws. On launch, hold on handbrake, 4500-5000 revs and slip a little and then feed it in.

Certainly a lot more involving for sure. Mid 8 100 would be a good time for a manual car.


----------



## brittan (May 18, 2007)

mattchaps said:


> Mitchy said:
> 
> 
> > Manual transmission cars need not apply :wink: Having had both manual and S tronic, the S tronic is effortless and in the league above. You'll probably find at best with good launch and shifts, 8.5 0-100. Still very fast but not in the same bracket as us with the cool gearboxes
> ...


If you're going to do that, and if you haven't already, I'd suggest changing the gear shift cable ends at the gearbox linkage.
This makes a worthwhile improvement to the shift accuracy so less chance of a fluffed change.


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2012)

Mitchy said:


> Evan... Do you think there are any benefits at all in tuning the S tronic box? I see you've sorted the shift but I suspect this was done purely through engine mapping. Do you see any scope for improving times by tweaking the gearbox ecu? Higher launch revs, quicker shifts etc?


Increased rev limiter, higher revving launch control and quicker shifts are all beneficial to improving times, but there are a few things to consider; A) Increasing rev limiter will likely require upgrades to the OEM head/valvetrain and probably wouldn't be an option for your typical stage 1/2 customer. B) Higher launch revs has potential, but without super sticky tyres it's irrelevant. I'd be willing to bet nearly every TTRS owner has not been able to take full advantage of (read: maintain traction) the standard limit, let alone a raised one. C) I have yet to see somebody accurately quantify "faster shifting" against the OEM shifting for a DSG/Stronic. The core theory and design of the DSG box already reduces time between shifts to milliseconds. I can't imagine any additional calibration would make them that noticeably quicker.

In all reality, gearbox improvements as discussed above will be there for those with engine builds and drag slicks chasing every last hundredth of a second on their Vbox and at the drag times--so, yeah for you when you get an engine build, BT kit and upgrade your clutch packs


----------



## jaybyme (Mar 10, 2010)

Looking good Evan.
Don't forget mine is fully decatted :wink: 
Have no V-box ,but averaged 4 secs 100-160 km/h with your old map.
Reading tests on tuned manual cars,most have set disappointing acceleration times compared to a standard Stronic.
Some have reported slower times using slicks.


----------



## Dayer2910 (Apr 29, 2012)

Hey fair play to the APR guys, they kept to their word and got it sorted for PP....sounds like he's well chuffed.

out of interest how much is the stage 1 remap on a TTS? do you offer a collection and drop back service? i can't be arsed to drive to MK...


----------



## bigsyd (Jul 9, 2008)

jamman said:


> How old are you lot?
> 
> All this bitching is hilarious, keep it up. :roll: :lol:
> 
> Looks like they have sorted the issues big time PP enjoy the car when you collect it.


To quote a meatloaf ditty....... Cough cough.... you took the words right out of my mouth :lol: :lol: :lol:

So how is Johnny boys new turbo and new inlet manifold coming along ?

I must admit after having a long and very interesting chat with Steve vspurs on the Germany trip ( the ones where you actually get to drive an RS and enjoy them for what they are :roll: ) he was going into great detail on how he prepairs himself and the car just to do the 1/4 mile in a manual car...I was shocked at the amount of skill needed to control that amount of power 8) 
So for me manual times get my respect just because of the skill level to achieve fast times,where I could sit behind the wheel of an auto and get great times


----------



## hope88 (Mar 25, 2011)

Well if a simple S1 remap can give you 3.1 seconds 0-60 consistently I'm seriously tempted to hunt for a S-tronic TTRS... My Stage 1 GTR with Y pipe struggles to get 3.1 in a consistent manner (although to be fair I've heard MY11+ cars get 2.7 easily plus I haven't used VBox to measure just stopwatch built into the steering)

Very impressive figures well done!


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2012)

Dayer2910 said:


> Hey fair play to the APR guys, they kept to their word and got it sorted for PP....sounds like he's well chuffed.
> 
> out of interest how much is the stage 1 remap on a TTS? do you offer a collection and drop back service? i can't be arsed to drive to MK...


TTS is £499+ VAT Dayer. We only offer collection and delivery under exceptional circumstances like this. A remap for you is a 20 minute, hassle-free job and can be performed by any of our authorized distributors; no need to come to MK 

Pm me your details and address if you're interested and ill get you in touch with the right people.


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## LEO-RS (Apr 13, 2009)

hope88 said:


> Well if a simple S1 remap can give you 3.1 seconds 0-60 consistently I'm seriously tempted to hunt for a S-tronic TTRS... My Stage 1 GTR with Y pipe struggles to get 3.1 in a consistent manner (although to be fair I've heard MY11+ cars get 2.7 easily plus I haven't used VBox to measure just stopwatch built into the steering)
> 
> Very impressive figures well done!


There was a large thread over on GTROC about 0-60's not so long back, even tuned cars are stuck at 3.0 on the vbox. It was shown to be very very difficult to go quicker without drag radials being fitted. No one in the thread reported a 2.x, everything was low to mid 3 reported even from some of the higher tuned cars.

Nissans claims of 2.8 have never been independently verified either, the mags and independents are not backing up Nissans claims. It was most probably marketing spin and bullshit. Nissan probably had everything perfect and setup on their press car when they managed that feat.

2.8 60's don't appear to be easily repeatable. They don't appear to be possible for most.

With regards to a TTRS, it's probably at or very very close to its maximum achievable 0-60 time already at 3.1. More power would just involve more wheel spin. Very tricky to get better and in the end that is purely down to traction, right conditions and luck.


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## hope88 (Mar 25, 2011)

Mitchy said:


> There was a large thread over on GTROC about 0-60's not so long back, even tuned cars are stuck at 3.0 on the vbox. It was shown to be very very difficult to go quicker without drag radials being fitted. No one in the thread reported a 2.x, everything was low to mid 3 reported even from some of the higher tuned cars.
> 
> Nissans claims of 2.8 have never been independently verified either, the mags and independents are not backing up Nissans claims. It was most probably marketing spin and bullshit. Nissan probably had everything perfect and setup on their press car when they managed that feat.
> 
> ...


Agreed. You have to agree those times (if able to hit consistently under ideal conditions) are very impressive for a 2.5 5 pot. If I am not mistaken factory quoted times are around 4.3 seconds (?) so 3.1 is MASSIVE improvement on road tyres.


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## Mule (Jul 12, 2010)

It looks like its a Golf R....


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2012)

Mule said:


> It looks like its a Golf R....


Mule, the name of the only photo album my mobile Facebook app uploads to on our FB page is called golf r. Haven't bothered to change it. But no, it is a TTRS... exactly what I said it is. Nice try 

See?


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## jamman (May 6, 2002)

Poor ol eeyore the hater wrong again bless him. :lol:


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## RockKramer (Feb 15, 2012)

jamman said:


> Poor ol eeyore the hater wrong again bless him. :lol:


Eeyore... Lol. Serious business these tuner threads. Like you said very amusing.


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## jonnyc (Feb 13, 2010)

Awwww.. He even went to the trouble to circle it

Speciaaaaaaaaal...


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## jamman (May 6, 2002)

jonnyc said:


> Awwww.. He even went to the trouble to circle it
> 
> Speciaaaaaaaaal...


That's because he has a "special" love for JC/APR you know that :wink:


----------



## powerplay (Feb 8, 2008)

Ok guys, one last update and time to draw this to a close I think!

Just to quickly summarise, for anyone not wanting to trawl through the previous posts, I decided to visit APR for their stage1 remap for the Audi TT RS, having previously had my RS mapped by MRC but lost this when my ECU needed replacing (long story). More than anything else - as I don't have a wide experience of different tuners - I wanted to try something different, intrigued by their reputation and numerous Youtube promotions.

I visited APR and left with my car remapped with their standard stage1 map. The drive home was mostly in traffic, the power was certainly there but little opportunity to really try out the performance.

It was only over the coming couple of days that it became apparent something wasn't right with the way the S-Tronic gearbox was changing gear, it was sometimes almost a 2-step process with the engine power/revs dropping like a second gear change after the actual change.

I contacted APR about the issue, something experienced by only a couple other RS cars they had remapped.

This was last week and since then they have done everything I could have expected and more to resolve the issue. The problem was diagnosed and fixed over the weekend by APR Switzerland, [email protected] arranged for my car to be collected on Monday evening, it was then worked on during Tuesday and had the update applied, and was returned to me this afternoon.

I have had the briefest of opportunities to stick my Iphone in the car to capture how it now drives.

all I can say is, bloody hell they really have solved it, it is transformed from what is was with their previous map, changes are swift and basically as they should be.

Compare my earlier video with this one:






I think you'll agree that's nothing other than a result!

so I am now very happy with my car, the performance is, quite frankly, stonking and all you'd ever want for the road. But I know I'll get used to it!!

whatever you might think or have read elsewhere, as a first-time customer with APR I've experienced their service and commitment and cannot recommend them highly enough.


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## jamman (May 6, 2002)

Nice result


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## jaybyme (Mar 10, 2010)

PP,that looks better.
Taking easy and 60 -100 in 5secs.
well done to Evan and APR .It's rare to get customer service like that.
I'm sure you'll be out testing the car over the next few days,so enjoy,
Hopefully I can do the same soon.


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## jonnyc (Feb 13, 2010)

Looks awesome.. Damn fast S-Tronic cars!! Haha


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## mattchaps (Mar 12, 2012)

Nice one PP.... Now get over to Kent so I can have a look at your S-tronic and you can have a listen to my RSC :wink:


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## LEO-RS (Apr 13, 2009)

Oh okay, I've got you now. Evans upload of the vbox display. No worries.

To be fair, 7.6 is what I would expect to see from Stage 1. Just goes to prove mines isn't a 1 off which is good. The more and more people that replicate these good figures, the more credit the figures will get so a win win.


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## jonnyc (Feb 13, 2010)

Aw, my response didn't last long! Lol!!


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## powerplay (Feb 8, 2008)

jonnyc said:


> Aw, my response didn't last long! Lol!!


I liked it. But it did draw some unwanted attention from around the office :lol:


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## jamman (May 6, 2002)

Oh dear oh dear oh dear :roll:

Help needed to pick up Eeyore's toys they have just flown out the cot big time :lol: :lol:

Poor chap just can't help himself


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## kevtga (Mar 8, 2012)

Back on topic ;-) will look forward to seeing you next week Evan for my full RSC exhaust , induction kit and stage two remap on my nice spanking new RS lol ;-)


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## Ikon66 (Sep 12, 2003)

Have done a little housekeeping here. Any posts off topic will be deleted.


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## jonnyc (Feb 13, 2010)

^ Good man


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## mattchaps (Mar 12, 2012)

kevtga said:


> Back on topic ;-) will look forward to seeing you next week Evan for my full RSC exhaust , induction kit and stage two remap on my nice spanking new RS lol ;-)


That didn't take long!

Welcome to the club


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## Simon H (Jun 22, 2008)

Hi Chaps,
Just back from Scotland, blasting round Royal Deeside for a week, and catching up on this thread. Well done PP mate, i bet the car feels mighty strong now ?. Did APR say exactly what they had done to fix the gearchange, was it just the engine mapping being adjusted ?, and they didnt touch the actual box at all ?, regards, SIMON.


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## kevtga (Mar 8, 2012)

mattchaps said:


> kevtga said:
> 
> 
> > Back on topic ;-) will look forward to seeing you next week Evan for my full RSC exhaust , induction kit and stage two remap on my nice spanking new RS lol ;-)
> ...


That's what they all say :-(
Thanks


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## powerplay (Feb 8, 2008)

Simon H said:


> Hi Chaps,
> Just back from Scotland, blasting round Royal Deeside for a week, and catching up on this thread. Well done PP mate, i bet the car feels mighty strong now ?. Did APR say exactly what they had done to fix the gearchange, was it just the engine mapping being adjusted ?, and they didn't touch the actual box at all ?, regards, SIMON.


Hi Simon,

Yes mate the engine feels great now, just this second put in my old MRC filter in favour of the stock paper one - no chance to see if it makes any noticeable difference yet as I have again made it piss down - it's a talent I have!!

No idea what they did to fix it, but it was just engine mapping, they don't touch the TCU - which is a shame as there are some things that could be improved there :wink:


----------



## DAVECOV (Apr 23, 2009)

Picked this Bad Boy up today anybody had any experience with ABT Upgrade?
Audi TTRS

Audi Approved ABT 420BHP Power Upgrade and Intercooler 
19" Rotor Arm Alloys
7 Speed S-Tronic
Magnetic Ride S Version
Comfort Pack
Technology Pack
Carbon Pack
LED Pack
Bucket Seats
Top Speed Limiter Removal
Tyre Presure Indicator
Folding Heated Mirrors
Privacy Glass
Hill Assist
Cruise Control
Phone Prep Bluetooth Hands Free
DVD System Plus
Bose Surround Sound
Rear Wing Delete
Auto Lights
Auto Wipers


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## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

DI4COV said:


> Picked this Bad Boy up today...
> 
> ...Auto Wipers


If it's the car I think it is, I'd make darn sure that fire extinguisher is well bolted down because it looks like it'd take your head off from the back in any kind of head-on impact.


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## DAVECOV (Apr 23, 2009)

wja96 said:


> DI4COV said:
> 
> 
> > Picked this Bad Boy up today...
> ...


lol you know the car then? what else can you tell me


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## SuperRS (Mar 7, 2012)

ABT isnt cheap, how good it is, im not sure.

Only one way to find out :wink:


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## jaybyme (Mar 10, 2010)

Any plans to put your ABT om the rollers,would be interesting to see what power it really has ?


----------



## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

DI4COV said:


> wja96 said:
> 
> 
> > DI4COV said:
> ...


Audi Bristol's "test" car I think. They have 2 Abt trained technicians and they had to sell a certain number of packs to become an Abt agent and they did their white RS demonstrator if it's the car I'm thinking of. It was sold on and I saw it in their workshop getting something sorted under warranty. The mechanics were a bit mystified as to why the fire extinguisher had been mounted there when there are safer places to put it.

Abt's conversion is supposedly one of the best as they don't just map the car, they take the speed limiter off and they fit an uprated intercooler so the car doesn't suffer from heat soak on long Autobahn runs in the summer.

I suspect it's possibly the only Abt RS in the country.


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## jaybyme (Mar 10, 2010)

Read many different stories about the ABT cars on different forums.
Very expensive,for questionable tuning is what you mostly hear.
Videos like this don't do it much good.




this is actually slower than a standard car,let alone a 420ps car.


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## DAVECOV (Apr 23, 2009)

I have to say its Proper Quick and you get the occasional pop from the back end  
Will try to attend the next Rolling Road Meet To See Wot She,s doin :wink:

Dave.


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## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

jaybyme said:


> Read many different stories about the ABT cars on different forums.
> Very expensive,for questionable tuning is what you mostly hear...
> 
> ...this is actually slower than a standard car,let alone a 420ps car.


It actually claims 501ch (501PS) in the blurb on that, so who knows what else as been done to it.

And I would posit that video actually shows nothing apart from someone achieving an indicated 290km/h on a road somewhere. As I know you will be only too aware of, when you do these high speed runs on the Autobahn, you have to be incredibly cautious and he clearly aborts at least one run, presumably because someone in a TDi pulled out in front of him at 200km/h. He could have been going slightly uphill or anything during those runs. We just don't know.

The only cars I'm 100% confident in the performance of at this moment are Mitchy's and my own (and the gulf between them). Mitchy's has been v-boxed on a flat drag-strip at Crail and mine has been v-boxed on the pancake-flat runway at Old Buckenham. His did 3.1 and mine didn't 

And, of course, absolute headline numbers don't tell the whole story. Getting an extra x bhp at some peak means nothing if that extra isn't useable or driveable. There are many theoretically less potent remaps that are actually quicker because the extra power/torque is useable for longer.


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## DAVECOV (Apr 23, 2009)

wja96 said:


> jaybyme said:
> 
> 
> > Read many different stories about the ABT cars on different forums.
> ...


Thanks for the Info  
I Have a couple of trophies from Santa Pod maybe I can add some more :wink:

Cheers Dave.


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## SuperRS (Mar 7, 2012)

ABT used to advertise a 501ps conversion but since have been advertising it as 470hp.

The conversion costs 10k lmao.


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## jaybyme (Mar 10, 2010)

I find it strange that they quote 440ps for the RS+.
I'd like to see the ABT intercooler,as there are threads saying it was poor in tests and others updated to Wagner or Forge


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## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

SuperRS said:


> ABT used to advertise a 501ps conversion but since have been advertising it as 470hp.
> 
> The conversion costs 10k lmao.


The big turbo conversion is €9000 fitted which is more like £7000. Given that it's the tuning upgrade from the only tuner that lets you keep your factory warranty in Europe it doesn't seem outrageous. And without casting any aspersions they've probably actually completed a proper test programme prior to selling it to paying customers.


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## SuperRS (Mar 7, 2012)

wja96 said:


> SuperRS said:
> 
> 
> > ABT used to advertise a 501ps conversion but since have been advertising it as 470hp.
> ...


My email from ABT stated over 10k euros and that it could only be completed in Germany for the hybrid turbo upgrade. Also the warranty is from ABT and not Audi UK should something go wrong.

As for it being properly tested at that time they couldn't even provide dyno graphs.

You would have to be a fool to pay 10k for a hybrid setup.


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## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

SuperRS said:


> wja96 said:
> 
> 
> > SuperRS said:
> ...


Even €10,000 is only £8000 and as for quibbling with their testing APR can't produce any dyno plots either remember. And they probably didn't have to phone a friend in Switzerland to resolve their problems. The ABT warranty is only in the UK, everywhere else in Europe, it is the approved upgrade.


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## SuperRS (Mar 7, 2012)

wja96 said:


> SuperRS said:
> 
> 
> > wja96 said:
> ...


Why are you bringing up APR whilst discussing ABT hybrid turbo upgrade?And dyno plots are on the APR website. Phone a friend from switerzerland. Is that the best you could come up with. Yes APR are a global company with Ecu calibrators in lots of different countries from time to time. Should APR not use their resources??? Stupid comment from yourself which is not relevant in regards to ABT upgrades.

only 8000 pounds, because that's a massive difference from 10k and isnt alot of money. Never mind factoring in the time and money it takes to get the car to germany.

As for their tunes, never experienced them, but reading on the Internet Of those who have, you might not think its worth the premium.

In regards to the owner of the ABT car, he has had a result, as he didn't have to pay for the upgrades.


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## DAVECOV (Apr 23, 2009)

That's right SuperRS I've gained 20K on the purchase price with only 8K on the clock as you said Result 

Dave.


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## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

Why not compare APR and Abt? You say that it's crazy to spend £8000 on a hybrid/big turbo upgrade and you made negative comments about their testing and inability to provide a dyno plot, but your own favoured tuner, who are developing a big turbo kit (price unknown) have also yet to back up their claims about power output. It seems a valid comparison to me.

The Abt family have been racing and tuning VAG cars for a long time and they have achieved a level of trust from VAG that allows them to be the only tuner selling remaps, upgrades etc. through the VW and Audi franchises in Europe. If they charge a premium for that, that's up for criticism, but I don't think you can attack them for much else.

And it sounds like the new owner will have it at a drag strip soon enough to validate the presence or absence those 420PS.


----------



## SuperRS (Mar 7, 2012)

wja96 said:


> Why not compare APR and Abt? You say that it's crazy to spend £8000 on a hybrid/big turbo upgrade and you made negative comments about their testing and inability to provide a dyno plot, but your own favoured tuner, who are developing a big turbo kit (price unknown) have also yet to back up their claims about power output. It seems a valid comparison to me.
> 
> The Abt family have been racing and tuning VAG cars for a long time and they have achieved a level of trust from VAG that allows them to be the only tuner selling remaps, upgrades etc. through the VW and Audi franchises in Europe. If they charge a premium for that, that's up for criticism, but I don't think you can attack them for much else.
> 
> And it sounds like the new owner will have it at a drag strip soon enough to validate the presence or absence those 420PS.


How was I negative about their testing. What my comment were there for was to purely suggest that perhaps there was no dyno sheet for their then so called 500ps package because it never made 500ps in the first place hence why they now market it as 470hp.

This has nothing to do with APR you just seem to try and drag them into everything. APR's product is in development, ABT 
where selling a finished product. So why should APR have dyno sheets up for something thats not a finished product??????

What ABT are selling is overpriced, and inferior to the TTS Roadsport hybrid package, IMO.


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## jamman (May 6, 2002)

Poor old eeyore just can't help himself he posts a shed load of abuse it gets pulled and then he's off again.

A very bitter life he must live, poor show 

PS I saw the post that was deleted :wink: :lol:


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## moncler1 (Sep 28, 2008)

I think the ABT hybrid conversion uses the Loba unit.

Or does everyone know that already?


----------



## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

SuperRS said:


> How was I negative about their testing. What my comment were there for was to purely suggest that perhaps there was no dyno sheet for their then so called 500ps package because it never made 500ps in the first place hence why they now market it as 470hp.


You made out they hadn't done enough to satisfy YOU because they couldn't produce a dyno plot.



SuperRS said:


> This has nothing to do with APR you just seem to try and drag them into everything. APR's product is in development, ABT
> where selling a finished product. So why should APR have dyno sheets up for something thats not a finished product??????


1. It's an APR thread
2. You say I bring APR into everything? Read your own posts. You attack every other tuner and promote APR at every opportunity. That's fine. Personally I think this thread casts APR UK in a very poor light. They couldn't tackle the original map without sending it to the USA and then when that was defective they went to another APR office in Switzerland to get the rectification work done. Are they REALLY that naive they don't see how impotent that makes the UK office look? It makes them look like people who just load maps on cars. Maps others have developed elsewhere and e-mailed to them. A black box operation. APR Switzerland, on the other hand, they come out quite well really.



SuperRS said:


> What ABT are selling is overpriced, and inferior to the TTS Roadsport hybrid package, IMO.


I'm not disagreeing with either sentiment, but I would suggest that a big chunk of the cost of the Abt package is their relationship with VAG, because they won't be allowing them to market their product through the franchised dealers without wanting a slice of the action. You're paying a HEFTY premium to keep your warranty intact (in Europe).


----------



## powerplay (Feb 8, 2008)

wja96 said:


> 2. You say I bring APR into everything? Read your own posts. You attack every other tuner and promote APR at every opportunity. That's fine. Personally I think this thread casts APR UK in a very poor light. They couldn't tackle the original map without sending it to the USA and then when that was defective they went to another APR office in Switzerland to get the rectification work done. Are they REALLY that naive they don't see how impotent that makes the UK office look? It makes them look like people who just load maps on cars. Maps others have developed elsewhere and e-mailed to them. A black box operation. APR Switzerland, on the other hand, they come out quite well really.


Mate I don't have your past experience I'm sure with various tuners so I won't attempt to sway your opinion in any way.

I would just point out that yes, APR UK had to make use of other arms of the same company - so what? To me as a customer that's no big deal, I'd rather get the best they can offer and have no prior knowledge of any claims they have made about the capabilities of their UK HQ so cannot make any judgement.

The product they initially supplied proved to not be perfect, disappointing granted but I accept that newer versions arrive all the time and improvements and enhancements have to be continually made.

Regardless, I had a problem and they were committed to solving it. They expedited a solution, drove 240 miles to my door, left me a car (with a full tank), took my car back to MK, put things right then returned my car - washed and with a full tank. Whatever your opinion, you cannot fail to at least acknowledge that's pretty good customer service which you are unlikely to experience elsewhere.


----------



## jonnyc (Feb 13, 2010)

moncler1 said:


> I think the ABT hybrid conversion uses the Loba unit.
> 
> Or does everyone know that already?


They do now lol


----------



## jonnyc (Feb 13, 2010)

powerplay said:


> Regardless, I had a problem and they were committed to solving it. They expedited a solution, drove 240 miles to my door, left me a car (with a full tank), took my car back to MK, put things right then returned my car - washed and with a full tank. Whatever your opinion, you cannot fail to at least acknowledge that's pretty good customer service which you are unlikely to experience elsewhere.


Says it all.. I challenge anyone to find another tuner in the UK that would do the same.. No chance


----------



## SuperRS (Mar 7, 2012)

jonnyc said:


> moncler1 said:
> 
> 
> > I think the ABT hybrid conversion uses the Loba unit.
> ...


Haha :lol:

I dont think many did know. The fact is, with the TTS conversion you get more hardware upgrades for alot less money, with the same turbo. R5T even posted about the ABT intercooler possibly being worse than the stock one.

WJA96 you are boring now, going on about this whole "sending" maps here and there. We are in a technological age, its making good use of resources.

Revo Agents had to send maps back to revo HQ under the exact same circumanstances, but because their HQ is in the UK that makes it acceptable in your eyes? You are getting very silly now. If you want to talk about me and my views just send me a PM instead of spamming this thread with stuff of not great interest :roll:


----------



## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

jonnyc said:


> powerplay said:
> 
> 
> > Regardless, I had a problem and they were committed to solving it. They expedited a solution, drove 240 miles to my door, left me a car (with a full tank), took my car back to MK, put things right then returned my car - washed and with a full tank. Whatever your opinion, you cannot fail to at least acknowledge that's pretty good customer service which you are unlikely to experience elsewhere.
> ...


I know of one that did rather better than that, but it's not my story to tell to be honest.


----------



## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

SuperRS said:


> jonnyc said:
> 
> 
> > moncler1 said:
> ...


It's not about being in a technological age or where the resources are. The bottom line is the resources to do the job weren't in Milton Keynes. This was a relatively straightforward Stage 1 remap. OK, it was on a rare car with a new ECU but you can't get away from the fact that if you had cut off the folks in Milton Keynes from the other APR offices, they'd have been stuck, just like any other APR dealer . It's not about YOUR views, it's about objectively assessing the performance of the tuning company and you'd have to say that had the OP been less understanding about it all, they could have looked worse. The difference between APR and the other well known Tuners is that most of the other tuners do actually have UK based support, developed on UK vehicles and who can handle issues that crop up without having to resort to an international phone call.


----------



## SuperRS (Mar 7, 2012)

wja96 said:


> SuperRS said:
> 
> 
> > Haha :lol:
> ...


So your quarrel is that their main HQ is in the US even though technology these days makes it a non issue.

So when I went to a revo agent, and they said they didnt have a map for my particular TTRS but needed to download my ecu data and get it sent off and that I could either return another day or wait a few hours for it to get sorted, thats not the same thing??? So "if you had cut off the folks in (insert tuner agent here) from the Revo offices, they'd have been stuck"

Or when I had another tuners map who tune in house, who had to make international phone call to get the capabilities of getting my throttle re-enabled after the mapping was being attempted??? "So if you had cut off the folks in the UK from the other ECU mapping offices, they'd have been stuck"

Your argument is weak, flawed and pointless.

BTW what map are you running on your TTRS again? Ive had 3 different ones on mine now


----------



## kevtga (Mar 8, 2012)

In all fairness revo have to send off the new ttrs ecu to their main branch to get them cracked so to speak then you have to wait for then to send it back and that was one of the reasons I went to APR as I am very impatient ;-)


----------



## jonnyc (Feb 13, 2010)

wja96 said:


> I know of one that did rather better than that, but it's not my story to tell to be honest.


Great.. :/ Constructive


----------



## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

jonnyc said:


> wja96 said:
> 
> 
> > I know of one that did rather better than that, but it's not my story to tell to be honest.
> ...


OK, no names, but they sent a trailer for the guy's car. And it still went back full of fuel.


----------



## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

kevtga said:


> In all fairness revo have to send off the new ttrs ecu to their main branch to get them cracked so to speak then you have to wait for then to send it back and that was one of the reasons I went to APR as I am very impatient ;-)


Not quite the same thing. And if you really wanted it fixed there and then why not go to MRC? You're actually talking to the tuner who's writing the map? This is APR HQ in the UK we're talking about, not an agent.


----------



## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

SuperRS said:


> wja96 said:
> 
> 
> > SuperRS said:
> ...


I don't have a quarrel with anyone. The point is APR UK HQ in Tanner's Drive couldn't sort out a Stage 1 Remap without getting help from outside.

I don't run a TTRS as you very well know, but that's irrelevant. I might as well as what map you're running on your Gallardo? If I'd turned up in ANYTHING with an ECU they'd never seen before they'd still have had to phone a friend. That's the point. They have NO more practical tuning capability than any other APR agent in that respect. They loaded an untested map onto a customer car and then had to go and get it when it wasn't 100%. Great that they sorted him out, if you think about it, their customer service has to be good because they're only supplying the same load and go as any other agent.

Yes, if you'd turned up at Awesome they'd have been stuck too, but they're not the country HQ. Although they may as well be for all the benefit you get from going to MK. Why can APR Switzerland sort it out but Milton Keynes can't? Possibly because they are TUNERS, not load-and-go salesmen?


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## SuperRS (Mar 7, 2012)

:boring:

You are a fool. You speak on things you don't fully know about like its fact.

It's a research and development center.

They work on projects that have never been done before.

Of course they are tuners.

Not wasting anymore time with you.


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## jaybyme (Mar 10, 2010)

Why do you think APR Switzerland sorted the problem out ?
APR Switzerland was just testing the map sent by APR USA on their car,at the same time the map was also being tested on a race car.
The problem was reported to APR on two cars and was quickly and professionally dealt with using all their resources.
I've had problems with a map from a different tuner for nearly a year,and they can't resolve it,and don't give any decent service at all.So they could definitely learn a thing or two from APR.

When you have an ABT tuned car, you basically pay for an ABT insurance for a new warranty with them.
You no longer have the Audi warranty.
From what i've seen here in Germany,if you have a problem, you cabn still go to your Audi dealer,but ABT pay the bill.
That is of course that ABT agree that you are covered for the problem, and they are willing to pay.

Most tuners in Germany offer a similar, but much cheaper insurance to cover engine and drive train


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## Mule (Jul 12, 2010)

Should they do development hence they cannot even do a basic map?

Despite advice and a lot of bickering, they went their own way in doing the Stg3 for the TTRS.

Now they are doing it the way they should have done in the 1st place.

It doesnt seem that they do anything themselves in Milton Keynes....



SuperRS said:


> :boring:
> 
> You are a fool. You speak on things you don't fully know about like its fact.
> 
> ...


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## jonnyc (Feb 13, 2010)

Here we go again...


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## Mule (Jul 12, 2010)

The Loba 500P is has bigger internals than the ABT unit. We have seen Loba 500P units flow more than 500 and Revo has made more than 500 safely on the Loba unit using the new HPFP and revised Revo map.

Regarding the ABT unit, then it was made to ABT specs.

They are defined as very safe tuning due to the prolonged runs on the autobahns at very high speed.

Thats why they have reached a topspeed of 314 km/h since its nowhere near pushed to the limits of flow.



moncler1 said:


> I think the ABT hybrid conversion uses the Loba unit.
> 
> Or does everyone know that already?


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## Mule (Jul 12, 2010)

If you just keep your mouth shut, then nobody will get hurt 



jonnyc said:


> Here we go again...


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## jamman (May 6, 2002)

Mule said:


> If you just keep your mouth shut, then nobody will get hurt


Dear oh dear :roll:


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## RockKramer (Feb 15, 2012)

Moth to a flame... Everytime


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## jamman (May 6, 2002)

Eeyore's song of the day, just let it go life's way tooooooo short :wink:


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## RockKramer (Feb 15, 2012)

Sweet... Proper lol. There are more important things


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## kevtga (Mar 8, 2012)

Priceless


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## SuperRS (Mar 7, 2012)

Mule said:


> Should they do development hence they cannot even do a basic map?
> 
> Despite advice and a lot of bickering, they went their own way in doing the Stg3 for the TTRS.
> 
> ...


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## bigsyd (Jul 9, 2008)

happy bunny as it was getting a bit boring talking about cars all the time .. Keep up the banter


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## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

SuperRS said:


> :boring:
> 
> You are a fool. You speak on things you don't fully know about like its fact.
> 
> ...


I'm a fool because I can see through the emperors patent lack of clothes and I've dared to say so? So be it. And PLEASE, don't waste any more of your time on me.


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## wja96 (Mar 4, 2010)

SuperRS said:


> :boring:
> 
> You are a fool. You speak on things you don't fully know about like its fact.
> 
> ...


I'm a fool because I can see through the emperors patent lack of clothes and I've dared to say so? So be it. And PLEASE, don't waste any more of your time on me.


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## temporarychicken (Oct 16, 2012)

What I love about the "tuner wars" is the civility, and the sense of gentlemanly conduct that pervades these discussions!

I am waiting for the wars to settle down a bit before tuning my (currently stock) RS...


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## brittan (May 18, 2007)

temporarychicken said:


> I am waiting for the wars to settle down a bit before tuning my (currently stock) RS...


You could use the same sort of approach as me:
Do your own research.
Set your own budget, £ per bhp/torque or overall cost.
Decide how far you want to go, a basic Stage 1 or big(ger) turbo/exhaust/intercooler etc etc or somewhere in between.
Consider how far away the various tuners are should you need to return to them.
Consider how 'real world' usable the increase in performance will be.

Then make your choice, get it done and stay studiously out of the wars. If you wait for them to "settle down", you'll never tune the car!


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## cheechy (Nov 8, 2006)

brittan said:


> temporarychicken said:
> 
> 
> > I am waiting for the wars to settle down a bit before tuning my (currently stock) RS...
> ...


 8) Nice one!

Thread is now officially dull and well past sell by.


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## mattchaps (Mar 12, 2012)

I think it's time the Mods closed this thread.

It's gone well past the OP....


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## Simon H (Jun 22, 2008)

Hi Powerplay,
Any more observations to report, hows it going ?. Regards, SIMON.


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## powerplay (Feb 8, 2008)

Simon H said:


> Hi Powerplay,
> Any more observations to report, hows it going ?. Regards, SIMON.


Not much at the moment, other than it feels goddam fast! Only really been doing the daily commute, hoping for some dry weather soon. Mitchy has kindly offered to lend me his Vbox so with favourable conditions I hope to gauge for myself how it's going


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## jaybyme (Mar 10, 2010)

what's the low down torque,economy,general gear changes when poodling around like then PP, any change ?

I miss the extra torque a tuned car gives you.


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## mattchaps (Mar 12, 2012)

powerplay said:


> Simon H said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Powerplay,
> ...


We definitely need to meet up! Go Pro action could be interesting with the V-Box


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## jaybyme (Mar 10, 2010)

would be very interesting,dyno and Vbox runs :wink:


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## jaybyme (Mar 10, 2010)

looks like APR's stronic map works well enough here.lol
interesting to compare it to the Audi /raeder car.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... AmXkSbKi8#!
Not sure if the Raeder gear changes sound a touch more aggressive ?
Definitely seem like different ratios,not sure as to the rules in VLN,?
I know the cars are fwd, and the engines pretty much standard.


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## tt3600 (Apr 8, 2006)

Powerplay. I would appreciate your feedback on drivebility.

One thing l like on the TT RS is little turbo lag.

Since the tune up, how are you finding the lag? Is it worse or the same? This is a concern for me.

Reliability is another, l don't want the map to cause intermittent engine issues.

Mitchy has provided exhaustive feedback on MRC which is great. But l have APR agent is nearby so this is more tempting having seen your video. Since both of you drive s-Tronic cars, it's safe to say l can upgrade now. Did APR need to take the ECU out?



powerplay said:


> Simon H said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Powerplay,
> ...


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## jaybyme (Mar 10, 2010)

With the APR map there isn't any more lag,if anything it feels much more responsive as you have so much more low down torque.
It's really noticeable when taking it easy in manual mode and you boot it in higher gears.
The standard car feels very slow in comparison.
Can't wait to get my APR map back on the car


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## powerplay (Feb 8, 2008)

tt3600 said:


> Powerplay. I would appreciate your feedback on drivebility.
> 
> One thing l like on the TT RS is little turbo lag.
> 
> ...


Hi tt3600

I hope to get out some more over the weekend to really explore the car again, however just driving the car every day you can rest assured there is no problem. Under light throttle with revs <2.5k the car drives absolutely fine, as good if not better than stock, and I have to say, better than my previous MRC map with the S-Tronic (although that's just my experience, they tune every car individually I believe so others might be different).

I can't give you much feedback as yet on reliability (no lights on / missfires etc yet) but of course will post should anything like that occur.

The ECU does come out - in fact while mine was out I snapped a quick pic


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## jaybyme (Mar 10, 2010)

LOL,the amount of times I've seen the insides of my ECU PP 
Complicated little buggers these new ECU's


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## [email protected] (Dec 15, 2010)

wja96 said:


> They have NO more practical tuning capability than any other APR agent in that respect.


APR UK is equipped with APR tuning and logging capabilities not available to our distributor network.


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## Simon H (Jun 22, 2008)

Hello Arin,
So, if someone comes in for a remao, on their UK S-Tronic TT RS, will they have the same map loaded as Powerplays from now on ?. If anyone goes, say to Awesome GTI, is Powerplays map, the one that will be installed ?, thankyou, regards, SIMON.


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## [email protected] (Dec 15, 2010)

We do not store software locally on dealers computers. So, each time an ECU is flashed, it's loaded from our servers here in the USA. This means the dealer will only upload the latest maps available. We will add the appropriate changes to all necessary ECUs and all customers will be able to take advantage of the changes others have.


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## Simon H (Jun 22, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> We do not store software locally on dealers computers. So, each time an ECU is flashed, it's loaded from our servers here in the USA. This means the dealer will only upload the latest maps available. We will add the appropriate changes to all necessary ECUs and all customers will be able to take advantage of the changes others have.


OK, Thankyou.


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## tt3600 (Apr 8, 2006)

Hi powerplay, thank you for your response. Looking forward to further feedback.


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## tt3600 (Apr 8, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> We do not store software locally on dealers computers. So, each time an ECU is flashed, it's loaded from our servers here in the USA. This means the dealer will only upload the latest maps available. We will add the appropriate changes to all necessary ECUs and all customers will be able to take advantage of the changes others have.


So AwesomeGTI is an official APR dealer and will therefore load the latest software?

Do you know how many TT-RS's AwesomeGTI have done?

What do you do if l goto Audi and my car is flashed (i.e., map overwritten) do you re-map for free?


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## Dayer2910 (Apr 29, 2012)

tt3600 said:


> [email protected] said:
> 
> 
> > We do not store software locally on dealers computers. So, each time an ECU is flashed, it's loaded from our servers here in the USA. This means the dealer will only upload the latest maps available. We will add the appropriate changes to all necessary ECUs and all customers will be able to take advantage of the changes others have.
> ...


I asked this same question to Evan from APR and the answer he confirmed is yes, I'm going to get my car done soon but wasn't impressed by their local agents website so will take a drive up for a recky beforehand to check them out, if I feel confident then I'm going APR


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## Dayer2910 (Apr 29, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> We do not store software locally on dealers computers. So, each time an ECU is flashed, it's loaded from our servers here in the USA. This means the dealer will only upload the latest maps available. We will add the appropriate changes to all necessary ECUs and all customers will be able to take advantage of the changes others have.


Why are UK prices higher than US prices then if the map is coming via the USA? I want an APR map but I'm cheap and still think 499 plus tax is a lot for a 20 reflash....


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## powerplay (Feb 8, 2008)

Guys have had a quick go tonight using a Racelogic Vbox, kindly loaned by Mitchy.

Had several attempts but so far have not been able to better the 3.1 APR did in testing - annoyingly I had a slip-slidy crab-style launch every time, lost loads of time with car struggling for grip so no wonder really.

Best I managed was 3.2 tonight, but I'm dead sure there's a 3.0 to be had there, just need to have better luck with grip from the off, maybe some better shoes are required!

Still not bad though for basically a stage1 [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

Crappy iphone pics:


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## Simon H (Jun 22, 2008)

PP,
Im always more interested in the 0 - 100 mph figure, as to me, it shows how strong the engine is hauling, after the initial fury of leaving the line, and, at 7.7 secs, thats still mighty strong, regards, SIMON.


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## mattchaps (Mar 12, 2012)

The 3.2 to 60 would have given a better 0-100 time too.... come on Stu, keep going!


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## tt3600 (Apr 8, 2006)

powerplay said:


> Guys have had a quick go tonight using a Racelogic Vbox, kindly loaned by Mitchy.


WOW - so tempting!!


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## mab (Sep 2, 2002)

powerplay said:


> Guys have had a quick go tonight using a Racelogic Vbox, kindly loaned by Mitchy.


Out of interest, is there no iphone app that can do the same thing?


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## LEO-RS (Apr 13, 2009)

mab said:


> powerplay said:
> 
> 
> > Guys have had a quick go tonight using a Racelogic Vbox, kindly loaned by Mitchy.
> ...


No, not really, vbox is the industry wide tool used for racing, manufacturer, and journalist testing. It's the known benchmark tool.

An iphone app is probably handy but will hold no credence, it will be nowhere near as accurate either, probably a 0.5-1sec margin of error.


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## powerplay (Feb 8, 2008)

Yes I've tried a couple of iphone apps, they are very inaccurate and totally pointless.

with the Vbox my results were consistently 3.2/3.3/3.4 every time, depending on amount of wheelspin. I noticed also the Vbox realtime speed reading is very accurate and as real-time as the car's digital speedometer. When I've tried an iphone app previously, sometimes I'm lucky if it thinks I'm quicker than a Ford Fiesta and sometimes I would embarrass a Veyron :wink:

I will try again soon with lower tyre pressures, maybe 30 front 24 rear, see if that helps traction. Anyone got an opinion on ideal pressures for optimal launching?


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## SuperRS (Mar 7, 2012)

Let's see some 100-200kmh data and 30-130 mph.


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## tt3600 (Apr 8, 2006)

Any more feedback this this?

Have you experienced any new issues?


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## powerplay (Feb 8, 2008)

tt3600 said:


> Any more feedback this this?
> 
> Have you experienced any new issues?


Mate so far things have been pretty good, nothing major to report and has been very enjoyable, especially meeting up with Mattchaps and his Stage2 RS, both cars are superb and Matt's RSC system tingles like a spitfire - but Stage1 + Stronic outguns Stage2 Manual for sure. Stage2 Stronic will be ballistic :lol:


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## Samuelmartin (Sep 12, 2012)

> Stage2 Stronic will be ballistic :lol:


Bet you can't wait for stage 3


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## jaybyme (Mar 10, 2010)

PP, not sure what difference there would be between stage 1 and 2 over short runs ?
Maybe over repeated runs and top speed runs,where the intercooler and decat could help
Any idea of the expected power difference ?


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## powerplay (Feb 8, 2008)

jaybyme said:


> PP, not sure what difference there would be between stage 1 and 2 over short runs ?
> Maybe over repeated runs and top speed runs,where the intercooler and decat could help
> Any idea of the expected power difference ?


Yeah on the typical 0-60/100 times I think the differences would be small, possibly up to half a second on the 0-100 sprint, as you say a better intercooler would help maintain performance where it might drop off over time otherwise; the S2 would perform better on in-gear acceleration more noticeably once into 3 digits, at lower speeds probably not a lot in it.

Mattchaps' APR dyno figures show 423hp, mine was reportedly 405hp, but realistically you can add around 10-15hp to these figures as apparently their dyno reads slightly low. Still, that's only about 20hp difference and that was with mine running a stock air filter. The increased torque however from a S2 would be more important, I think their S2 gives about +40lbft over S1 - and as you appreciate the improvement is more about how the engine performs over the entire range.


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## powerplay (Feb 8, 2008)

Had time for one more brief go with the Vbox tonight, took my brother out for a quick spin and thought we'd compare our 30-50/50-70 times. His iphone also takes better pics than mine :lol:

Ignore the 0-60/100 times in the pic below, wasn't really trying for these, roads were damp and never bothered with LC etc; was just intending to see the best in-gear times.

I don't know if there is a defacto method of achieving an "official" time, I just held a steady speed below the lower speed to be measured and then floored it; eg 30-50, held about 28mph for a few secs in 2nd gear then just accelerated until speed was over 50. The Vbox starts it's timer as soon as the indicated speed reaches the lower speed in the range. These times are with passenger and about 1/3 tank.

For comparison, the best we got in my Brother's 275bhp Mini JCW (2-up, 3/4 tank) was:
0-60 6.3s, 0-100 14.6s (these suffered lots of wheel spin due to road conditions, would expect better in ideal conditions), 30-50 2.3s, 50-70 2.7s

I was pretty pleased with my times, car just seems to be getting better and better 8)


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## Joerek (Oct 24, 2008)

0-60 in 4.1 for stronic s1 car doesn't seems right, right?


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## LEO-RS (Apr 13, 2009)

Joerek said:


> 0-60 in 4.1 for stronic s1 car doesn't seems right, right?


I take it you didn't read the 2nd paragraph of his post?


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2009)

powerplay said:


> Had time for one more brief go with the Vbox tonight, took my brother out for a quick spin and thought we'd compare our 30-50/50-70 times. His iphone also takes better pics than mine :lol:
> 
> Ignore the 0-60/100 times in the pic below, wasn't really trying for these, roads were damp and never bothered with LC etc; was just intending to see the best in-gear times.
> 
> ...


Thanks for collecting this data. I think this is the first time I've looked at 30-50 and 50-70 so I'm not sure how it compares.

Regarding the best method of doing it, I try two different ways and often get different results with each...

I would roll in to prior to the start speed by a fair bit. For a 30-130mph or 100-200kmh I start well below the start speed and am already full acceleration by the time I get to the start speed.

A second method that sometimes gives better results and sometime doesn't is to start one gear higher than I would normally and only 10-15mph slower than the start speed target.

It seems like sometimes you can heat soak the system quickly if you roll in to it like on method one and some times already being in a higher gear and starting closer to the start speed like in method two yields better times. So, I always try both.

Cheers!


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## Joerek (Oct 24, 2008)

Mitchy said:


> Joerek said:
> 
> 
> > 0-60 in 4.1 for stronic s1 car doesn't seems right, right?
> ...


He he no, sorry. In that case it's actually great  I get that with pushing to the limits (stock)


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