# Kev, why do you drive like a 'girl' when it's wet?



## kmpowell (May 6, 2002)

Some of the 'car fanatic' people i know often ask why i drive the S very cautiosly when its raining or when it has been raining, or is damp in the air/road. I explain that no traction control and 240bhp through the rear wheels is quite a tricky thing which can bite when you least expect it. They just reply with the 'girl' or 'chicken' comments. Today i logged onto the S2k forum to read this:

2 owners both losing it unexpectedly over the past 2 days. The S's biting all of a sudden on greasy cats eyes/road markings in this strange summer climate. More evidence for me to take it easy now i don't have quattro!


----------



## Dr_Parmar (May 10, 2002)

i had heard that they were a bit of a handful... drive at a pace with which you are comfortable.. no need to get prove anything 8)


----------



## phil (May 7, 2002)

Nasty. 
I don't boot it too much in the wet anyway. 4wd, esp, abs don't come into it for me. It's more fun in the dry so wait til then.


----------



## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

Kev,

take your point about driving it safely, but I have to wonder whether the car is inherently safe in the UK, when it is wet or damp quite a lot of the time...


----------



## nutts (May 8, 2002)

jampott said:


> Kev,
> 
> take your point about driving it safely, but I have to wonder whether the car is inherently safe in the UK, when it is wet or damp quite a lot of the time...


----------



## Guest (Jul 12, 2004)

or s2000 drivers cant really drive properly


----------



## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

Surely someone should start a campaign to have all the cars recalled backto the factory so they can introduce more understeer, add a stability program and perhaps a bigger spoiler on the rear would help. :?


----------



## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

scoTTy said:


> Surely someone should start a campaign to have all the cars recalled backto the factory so they can introduce more understeer, add a stability program and perhaps a bigger spoiler on the rear would help. :?


i understand the more recent models HAVE had handling tweaks which were designed to reduce the number sliding backwards / sideways off the road at the slightest hint of moisture... doesn't help the original ones though!!

No point bragging to have 240bhp and arguably the best 2 litre NA engine in the world, if you can't wring its neck once in a while for fear of it biting you... Rather like having a cobra as a pet - lovely to look at, but you can't really play with it...

I'm sticking with me Zed. Not quite as raw as the S2K but then I can use all of the ~287bhp without fear of retribution...


----------



## Stu-Oxfordshire (May 7, 2002)

kmpowell said:


> Kev, why do you drive like a 'girl' when it's wet?


Kev, what I wanna know is, why do you drive like a girl when it's dry?

:roll: :lol:  :wink:


----------



## kingcutter (Aug 1, 2003)

Stu-Oxfordshire said:


> kmpowell said:
> 
> 
> > Kev, why do you drive like a 'girl' when it's wet?
> ...


 [smiley=dude.gif]


----------



## kmpowell (May 6, 2002)

scoTTy said:


> Surely someone should start a campaign to have all the cars recalled backto the factory so they can introduce more understeer, add a stability program and perhaps a bigger spoiler on the rear would help. :?


02> models have a softer suspension setup to make it less twitchy, but after driving both a 51 and a 02 car, i opted for a 51 car becasue it felt more 'sure' on the road and more sporty.

I'm not too fussed about the wet conditions that much (i am warey though after reading all the stories), i just try to make sure i have the discipline not to 'rag' it at the wrong time. The dry days we have more than make up for it, especially with the roof down and the induction howling like a banshee! 

As for stability programs etc, i would only say that IMHO i think this goes against everything Honda thought into the spirit of the S2K.

I love my S though, whatever the stories i read, it's a joy to drive whatever the conditions and speed.


----------



## jdn (Aug 26, 2002)

jampott said:


> .... I can use all of the ~287bhp without fear of retribution...


Really? I drove my brothers 350Z last weekend and found it fairly easy to get wheelspin in second gear when hooning. And that was in the dry. My impression is that neither the traction control or ABS are particularly intrusive, and will allow a little bad behaviour before reigning it in. I was impressed by this, but personally I would be very cautious in the wet in one and would maintain a degree of fear of losing the back end if doing something stupid.

All IMHO of course.


----------



## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

Has anyone else heard about high speed stability problems on the 350Z?


----------



## ronin (Sep 6, 2003)

SundeepTT said:


> or s2000 drivers cant really drive properly


My Mums had two - you calling her names  :wink:


----------



## garyc (May 7, 2002)

RWD in the wet is just fine - more fun than 4wd in fact - unless you drive it like an Fwd car (or 4wd car ) chucking it in under power and lifting slightly to kill understeer. Then they can bite.

As I understand from driving S2Ks on track, the margin between controllable oversteer and terminal oversteer at the limit, is slim. I have spun a few times but then you have to try at the track...

It's just as well the S2K doesn't have any more torque. Mine can get lairy with DSC off and if one is not easy with the torque.

On the road a smoother style is quicker in RWD: easy off brakes; balanced throttle in; feed it in after apex. It takes more skill though.

Any ham-fisted oaf can chuck a 4wd around. :wink:


----------



## NaughTTy (Jul 9, 2003)

Friend of mine managed to turn his S2K round at 25 mph - caught a greasy wet patch ( :roll: ) on a 90' bend and stuffed the back end into a bridge 

This guy is advanced motorist, track educated, etc - just got caught out.

Just got it back from the repairers 3 weeks ago and last week reversed into another friend's Elise :? :roll:

Maybe he's just clumsy though!!


----------



## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

jdn said:


> jampott said:
> 
> 
> > .... I can use all of the ~287bhp without fear of retribution...
> ...


Yeah, really!! 

I picked up the car in December, and "learnt" it over the winter, in the snow, ice and damp - so maybe that started me off on the correct footing. 17k miles later, and I'm pretty familiar with how the car behaves in most situations.

The electronics gadgets seem very progressive, and do allow for some "fun" before helping you out - but I regularly drive with the traction control switched off, as the power delivery (very much like the TT in this respect) is better - certainly when pulling away, providing you don't overdo it and spin up the wheels!

No car can disobey the laws of physics - but the S2K seems VERY VERY easy to wrap around the nearest tree, as the slightest damp or greasy patch can cause it to swap ends. This certainly wouldn't appear to be an issue with the Zed. I've had it sideways, and sliding (usually because I've provoked it) of course! - but you can feel what is going on, and allow the car to correct itself, or correct it yourself if you've got the toys switched off...

NaughTTy's comment about his friend - advanced motorist, track educated managing to get "caught out" - well either a case of too much confidence, but more likely a case of a car which is somewhat dodgy to drive under certain conditions.

The Zed register currently comprises quite a few ex S2K owners, all of which praise the cross-country speed of the Zed (especially in the wet) versus their previous car - and noone (to my knowledge) has managed to repeat the pictures seen above....

I used to drive the TT quite close to the limit a lot of the time. I don't drive the Zed quite as close, usually - I'm the first to admit that it isn't as "easy" to do so. But the times I do? What fun


----------



## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

scoTTy said:


> Has anyone else heard about high speed stability problems on the 350Z?


No, mate - that's the TT... :wink:


----------



## jdn (Aug 26, 2002)

jampott said:


> ... the power delivery (very much like the TT in this respect) is better - certainly when pulling away, providing you don't overdo it and spin up the wheels!


Two issues in this thread really.

Is the S2000 easier to spin than the 350Z - only driven the 350Z but it seems like that may be the case.

Secondly, it sounds like you *have* learnt to drive the 350Z *with* fear of retribution when it is wet to avoid spinning to me. I do agree it is a damn fine drive and very predictable, but have only driven in the dry. As you have said, due care is required in the wet to prevent incidents, although the amount of 'care' require seems to be less than that for the S2000.


----------



## HighTT (Feb 14, 2004)

Out of curiosity .... what makes are the OEM Tyres fitted to the S2000 & the 350Z :?:


----------



## Monique (Jun 11, 2002)

Spun the Porsche on a dry road entering an autobahn. First day of ownership too.

35mph when I floored it  No damage luckily.

Taking Porker driving lessons now and YES, soft shoeing...


----------



## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

HighTT said:


> Out of curiosity .... what makes are the OEM Tyres fitted to the S2000 & the 350Z :?:


Bridgestone RE040 on the Zed...


----------



## CapTT (Mar 2, 2003)

Race Logic do a fully adjustable traction control system for the S2000 Kev for a highly reasonable Â£1075 fitted. Problem sorted. The same system can be fitted to a Civic Type R which has similar problems when its wet or slippy for Â£795 to Â£1025 depending on set up. High revving Honda VTEC`s give the roundabout a new meaning of fun in low traction conditions.

http://www.racelogic.co.uk/traction.htm


----------



## garyc (May 7, 2002)

Monique said:


> Spun the Porsche on a dry road entering an autobahn. First day of ownership too.
> 
> 35mph when I floored it  No damage luckily.
> 
> Taking Porker driving lessons now and YES, soft shoeing...


Slow in, fast out.... :wink:

Glad you kept it all on the road though..


----------



## kmpowell (May 6, 2002)

HighTT said:


> Out of curiosity .... what makes are the OEM Tyres fitted to the S2000 & the 350Z :?:


Tyres are crucial on the S, you have to be very precise with size and brand etc.

Standard fit tyres on the S2000 are Bridgestone. Bridgestone developed these tyres specifically for the S2000 and Honda recommend that only these tyres be used on the car.

MY99>03 = Bridgestone ES02JZ or ES03JZ(slightly different pattern for enhanced wet weather conditions: 
Front 205/55/89W R16 
Rear 225/50/92W R16

Any other Tyre brand/model: 
Front 205/55/R16 
Rear 245/45/R16

MY04 runs on Bridestone RE050s which are supposed to give even more improved wet weather performance. 
Front TO250 E0-50MZ 215/45/R17 87W 
Rear KO301 E0-50MZ 245/40/R17 91W

Cheers


----------



## kmpowell (May 6, 2002)

CapTT said:


> Race Logic do a fully adjustable traction control system for the S2000 Kev for a highly reasonable Â£1075 fitted. Problem sorted. The same system can be fitted to a Civic Type R which has similar problems when its wet or slippy for Â£795 to Â£1025 depending on set up. High revving Honda VTEC`s give the roundabout a new meaning of fun in low traction conditions.
> 
> http://www.racelogic.co.uk/traction.htm


Interesting bit of equipment!  I think i might have to look into getting something like that if i keep the car long term over the winter etc.

Cheers


----------



## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

jampott said:


> scoTTy said:
> 
> 
> > Has anyone else heard about high speed stability problems on the 350Z?
> ...


I'm serious.  I was discussing the video of the guy losing it in the desert (some high speed race - I'm assumming you've seen the on board footage where he gets a bit of a sway then spins out big time!!) and the other person said that there has been quite a discussion about the highspeed stability in general. This guys works in the car industry in Germany so either it's rumour mongering or there is an issue. Either way the video's not a good sign. I'll try and find it.....


----------



## amtechuk (Nov 17, 2003)

Tim` got some back up at last. :lol: 
On my test drive I had the Zed at 100mph (cough) on a country road with the salesman egging me on all the while. On the way home I drove the same road in the TT and it didn`t feel nearly as planted as the Nissan and didn`t even get to the same kind of speed. I`m no expert but the Zed feels great at speed, to me anyway :roll: 
Me biased......nooooooooooo! :wink:


----------



## b3ves (May 6, 2002)

Stu-Oxfordshire said:


> kmpowell said:
> 
> 
> > Kev, why do you drive like a 'girl' when it's wet?
> ...


 :roll: :lol:  :wink:

See you at the 'ring?


----------



## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

amtechuk said:


> Tim` got some back up at last. :lol:
> On my test drive I had the Zed at 100mph (cough) on a country road with the salesman egging me on all the while. On the way home I drove the same road in the TT and it didn`t feel nearly as planted as the Nissan and didn`t even get to the same kind of speed. I`m no expert but the Zed feels great at speed, to me anyway :roll:
> Me biased......nooooooooooo! :wink:


Not stirring the box quite as often either, as the torque band is a bit broader, I've found...


----------



## scoTTy (May 6, 2002)

350Z Crash Link Page It seems this was down to a tyre failing at 201mph!


----------



## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

scoTTy said:


> 350Z Crash Link Page It seems this was down to a tyre failing at 201mph!


Erm.... what did you expect to happen?  :roll: 8)


----------



## garyc (May 7, 2002)

jampott said:


> scoTTy said:
> 
> 
> > 350Z Crash Link Page It seems this was down to a tyre failing at 201mph!
> ...


 [smiley=wings.gif] ?


----------



## Stu-Oxfordshire (May 7, 2002)

b3ves said:


> Stu-Oxfordshire said:
> 
> 
> > kmpowell said:
> ...


Kev's not biting Rob....which is disappointing [smiley=jester.gif]


----------



## b3ves (May 6, 2002)

Stu-Oxfordshire said:


> b3ves said:
> 
> 
> > Stu-Oxfordshire said:
> ...


Keep up the peer pressure


----------



## Kell (May 28, 2002)

About a month ago I had someone in an S2k all over my arse on the slip road off the M40 - in the pissing rain. I particularly hate tail-gaters and as we left the m/way put my foot down across country.

I have never claimed to be a good driver (or even an average one at that) but he just disappeared in my rear view mirror.

Having owned a rear-wheel drive car in the past and been caught out on several occassions (never spinning, but fishtailing wildy) I know what they can be like when you push too hard.

But I guess for most people, the ability to go fast(er) in most conditions is part of the appeal.

No it's not as sporting, and no it doesn't make you a better driver. Yes, you could argue that it instills a false sense of security and that the higher speeds involved mean that when (if) it does go wrong, it could go wrong in a bigger way - in much the same way that the 'original' TT did at launch.

I guess the best way to look at it is to just admit that every car is a compromise in some way and work out whether the good outweighs the bad for you.

I'm a big fan of the VTEC engine having had use of a CRX (the original 2+2 coupe one - not the Del-Sol) for about six months and loved every minute of it, but I don't like the styling of the S2k. Nice car, but just not for me - and this thread is another one of 'my' arguments against. :?


----------



## David_A (May 7, 2002)

Try having 370+BHP through the back wheels and italian traction control. You just don't floor it in the wet. Ever. After trying to join a motoway at speed from a slip road and sliding across all three lanes you learn that 50% throttle is the most you need in the wet in one of these puppies.

Dave


----------



## garvin (May 7, 2002)

SundeepTT said:


> or s2000 drivers cant really drive properly


Unfortunately, even Michael Shumacher himself would have trouble keeping one of these babies on the road once the back goes! The trouble with the S2k is that, in common with a lot of Hondas, it's just not progressive so when it goes ............. it goes big time. Now it doesn't matter how good a driver you are you need space on the 'outside' to correct a 'big' back end slide .................. and in the UK, there usually isn't enough room available so a trip into the scenery is often the result!

It is for this very reason that I would never have an S2k in my 'stable'. For progressive oversteer, try a Z350 ............... dead easy to hold/correct when sliding ................. can make everyone look like Michael Schumacher!!


----------



## R6B TT (Feb 25, 2003)

garvin said:


> SundeepTT said:
> 
> 
> > or s2000 drivers cant really drive properly
> ...


What even JampoTT - he's bought a Landie so he can drag his Z out of the hedge himself


----------



## jampott (Sep 6, 2003)

R6B TT said:


> garvin said:
> 
> 
> > SundeepTT said:
> ...


Actually, Rob, that's not the reason at all...

If you can keep my little secret between the 2 of us, I found that the rather brightly coloured Zed tends to scare the sheep off... whereas the Landie will enable me to blend in a bit better, so I can sneak up easier...


----------



## Kell (May 28, 2002)

jampott said:


> R6B TT said:
> 
> 
> > garvin said:
> ...


LOL. You really have taken this living in Wales thing to heart haven't you?


----------



## paulb (May 6, 2002)

SundeepTT said:


> or s2000 drivers cant really drive properly


Hope this 993 driver doesn't come back with his tail between his legs come winter


----------

