# Poll to re-instate John as editor.



## Gazzer

re-instate John or leave as is


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## Ikon66

Not sure this is the right place gaz, surely only TTOC members should vote on this? On here anyone could vote :?

TTOC forum?


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## Hoggy

Hi Gazzer, I agree with Ikon66, (Paul) delete it & post on TTOC members area, if a Poll is avail on TTOC members area.
Hoggy.


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## Gazzer

are the ttf members not all possible future ttoc members? and not just that guys......ttoc forum is dead! as most members only use here tbh.........can't argue with that. it is in the ttoc section not posted on other sections for once lol


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## Nem

There are just over 500 people in the ttoc group on here. 100 of which have not logged on for over 6 months.

The ttoc members area currently has just under 400 people registered.

So the argument of where there are more active ttoc members is most definitely not actually one or the other.

All this poll is doing is stiring things up again where non members can vote, which has nothing to do with it being in the ttoc section or not, which will give a useless outcome.


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## Gazzer

Nem said:


> There are just over 500 people in the ttoc group on here. 100 of which have not logged on for over 6 months.
> 
> The ttoc members area currently has just under 400 people registered.
> 
> So the argument of where there are more active ttoc members is most definitely not actually one or the other.
> 
> All this poll is doing is stiring things up again where non members can vote, which has nothing to do with it being in the ttoc section or not, which will give a useless outcome.


currently 7 on ttoc forum including myself and you nick.............have a look at ttf :? and your point is? i asked you to do a poll and put to rest the argument once and for all from a members point of view.......no responce as usual bud!! so i did it myself.
oh btw my point of posting a link in ttoc forum was to give all members a chance to vote.


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## Gazzer

Nem said:


> There are just over 500 people in the ttoc group on here. 100 of which have not logged on for over 6 months.
> 
> The ttoc members area currently has just under 400 people registered.
> 
> So the argument of where there are more active ttoc members is most definitely not actually one or the other.
> 
> All this poll is doing is stiring things up again where non members can vote, which has nothing to do with it being in the ttoc section or not, which will give a useless outcome.


did you vote nick btw lol


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## Nem

I didn't vote no, but therein lies the problem, you have no idea who's voted, member or nonmember.

I wasn't aware the club rules were based on forum polls.

Let us get on with delivering what we have promised and if John wants to stand again at the agm then so be it.


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## Gazzer

Nem said:


> I didn't vote no, but therein lies the problem, you have no idea who's voted, member or nonmember.
> 
> I wasn't aware the club rules were based on forum polls.
> 
> Let us get on with delivering what we have promised and if John wants to stand again at the agm then so be it.


Nick, you broke your own flawed constitusion hence why it is being re-written m8!, i will delete this one if you post the same poll in ttoc forum and place a link same as i have to let all members know where it is.
ok?


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## audimad

I voted to re-instate John as editor and yes I AM still a member.


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## brittan

Gazzer, this is not helping. It's in the wrong place, open to non members, can never be binding or enforced and whatever the "result" it will be totally irrelevant.

Despite your PM I will not vote and I hope that other members give this an equally wide berth.


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## Gazzer

brittan said:


> Gazzer, this is not helping. It's in the wrong place, open to non members, can never be binding or enforced and whatever the "result" it will be totally irrelevant.
> 
> Despite your PM I will not vote and I hope that other members give this an equally wide berth.


brittan i agree completely is isn't binding in any way shape or form m8, but i am not letting go of this i am afraid......i did ask nick days ago to do a poll in ttoc forum. i got no responce again despite asking a couple of times and so i did one myself......yes i could have done it in ttoc forum, but wouldn't get the coverage tbh or the effect.

Edit: brittan yes i did pm you and many other ttoc members only tonight regarding this topic, am happy for anyone to log into my account to see for themselves if they wish.


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## paulc1

Just looking to see if yodah has voted pmsl


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## avyi

Not voting as I'm not currently a paid member and I think this is..erm.. pointless :?


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## jampott

Just drop it gazzer.

And if you're so great, run for committee yourself.


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## davelincs

ive voted, re instate John


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## Phil_RS

Whilst I agree this isn't the place, it appears at least worth exploring to show that there is a group of people, me included who feel john should be reinstated now and the issue dealt with at the agm.

If Nick has back tracked on removing John as a member how can you continue with the removal of his editor status?


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## jamman

Hello from snowy Polska.

Is this really helping ?

Really ?


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## Gazzer

well i was a tad suprised to find it pretty even, only six days to go and then it will be clear and done.


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## j8keith

brittan said:


> Gazzer, this is not helping. It's in the wrong place, open to non members, can never be binding or enforced and whatever the "result" it will be totally irrelevant.
> 
> Despite your PM I will not vote and I hope that other members give this an equally wide berth.


+1, I understand and applaude your passion with regards to the club Gaz, I know that your heart is in the right place, but don't think this is the way forward.


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## Gazzer

jampott said:


> Just drop it gazzer.
> 
> And if you're so great, run for committee yourself.


drop what jampott? the illegal removal of a voted committee member? so can i assume you are happy with a committee that can just oust a member for a reason they make up? jee's bud make sure you dont post wrong sometime or you could be next lol


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## Gazzer

j8keith said:


> brittan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gazzer, this is not helping. It's in the wrong place, open to non members, can never be binding or enforced and whatever the "result" it will be totally irrelevant.
> 
> Despite your PM I will not vote and I hope that other members give this an equally wide berth.
> 
> 
> 
> +1, I understand and applaude your passion with regards to the club Gaz, I know that your heart is in the right place, but don't think this is the way forward.
Click to expand...

cheers keith, i apreciate the post bud. i did make an offer but as usual nick never responded :? ironic that he never responds when you put him on the spot lol


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## Gazzer

current ttoc members on ttoc forum...........4 including myself and Hoggy.............over 40 on ttf


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## TT K8

Gazzer, please, I think we'd all be glad of a friend as loyal as you if we're in a bit of a fix, but like a lot of others I feel this needs dropping now. I personally don't think it would do any good to re-instate John *at this time*. There are too many wounds on both sides that need licking, and it's just too soon.

John can stand again and be voted on by the membership again in a few months, which might do everyone a bit of good and allow for a period of reflection on the *personal* contributions to this of *all* concerned.

Please m8ee - for all (including John) our sakes :-*


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## jamman

Gaz you KNOW I like you but please listen to what myself and several others are asking of you


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## jampott

Gazzer said:


> jampott said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just drop it gazzer.
> 
> And if you're so great, run for committee yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> drop what jampott? the illegal removal of a voted committee member? so can i assume you are happy with a committee that can just oust a member for a reason they make up? jee's bud make sure you dont post wrong sometime or you could be next lol
Click to expand...

Drop acting like a dick, and continually stirring things up?

Even your friends and supporters are kindly asking you to stop - so why not take their advice, even if you don't want to take it from anyone else.

The club constitution has more holes than a South African bathroom door. Nobody has acted "alone", the committee is clearly split almost down the middle, else one side would continually outvote the other.

Whatever the issue, your constant sniping isn't helping anybody.


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## Gazzer

Okie dokie, will stay out of all ttoc sections from now on and go back to my home in off topic and flame room......will do occasional flurries into mk1 to help if I can though.


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## blackers

Gazzer said:


> Okie dokie, will stay out of all ttoc sections from now on and go back to my home in off topic and flame room......will do occasional flurries into mk1 to help if I can though.


 [smiley=thumbsup.gif]


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## Gazzer

poll is over and looks like peeps want john back as editor


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## Nyxx

Hello!!!!

That "poll" shows nothing worth talking about apart from.......

1) You instigated a poll knowing full well you had 24 others voting your way that's 25 votes of the 39 cast. So that leaves 14 normal members that had no idea what was going on.

2) Ask how many members there are in the club? knowing that do you really think a poll of a total of 68 people count for anything? and that includes the 25 you know where going to vote come what may.

3) So given the fact that hardly any members know or cared about this "poll", lets say - your 25 and lets be far and take 5 away that we all know would vote the other way. So that's 68-30 a grand total of 38 people.

4) I think to conclude it was and is a complete waste of time and stands for nothing worth talking about.

5)Lets have a "poll" on Salt & vinager or Cheese and onion crisps, I have 25 votes for cheese and onion in the "bag" already. :roll:


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## Gazzer

Nyxx said:


> Hello!!!!
> 
> That "poll" shows nothing worth talking about apart from.......
> 
> 1) You instigated a poll knowing full well you had 24 others voting your way that's 25 votes of the 39 cast. So that leaves 14 normal members that had no idea what was going on.
> 
> 2) Ask how many members there are in the club? knowing that do you really think a poll of a total of 68 people count for anything? and that includes the 25 you know where going to vote come what may.
> 
> 3) So given the fact that hardly any members know or cared about this "poll", lets say - your 25 and lets be far and take 5 away that we all know would vote the other way. So that's 68-30 a grand total of 38 people.
> 
> 4) I think to conclude it was and is a complete waste of time and stands for nothing worth talking about.
> 
> 5)Lets have a "poll" on Salt & vinager or Cheese and onion crisps, I have 25 votes for cheese and onion in the "bag" already. :roll:


Hmmmm ok I hear you Nyxx as a member did you not receive the committee e-mail statement then? I did and as many got curious maybe on what has gone on....and had a look in the ttoc section. Everyone's right to post isn't it?


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## jamman

Don't think you are on Nyxx's birthday card list Gaz :lol:

Some people hey.......

Im simply amazed that so many voted against are we saying the magazine is crap and John or rubbish as an editor?

I've always thought that the magazine is the best part of the club.


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## davelincs

Well I have to agree with you James, the magazine is excellent, I am sure John will be re-instated one way or another


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## Gazzer

jamman said:


> Don't think you are on Nyxx's birthday card list Gaz :lol:
> 
> Some people hey.......
> 
> Im simply amazed that so many voted against are we saying the magazine is crap and John or rubbish as an editor?
> 
> I've always thought that the magazine is the best part of the club.


Is ok James, he has a right to post his view


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## Nyxx

Lets be clear, I have nothing personal against Gazzer, John or you James, or anyone on these forums.

I just think this poll was, well lets say...not a good idea and leave it at that.

@james


jamman said:


> Im simply amazed that so many voted against are we saying the magazine is crap and John or rubbish as an editor?
> I've always thought that the magazine is the best part of the club.


Well that's voting for you, we all have different opinions. James it might not have been about the magazine at all.

------
Off topic, but to print the mag at huge cost to me is a waste of club funds(unless that's why we get the advertising money...to do it in print form) when in this day and age a PDF on a PC or any tablet is fine. I read the mag on my PC, I thought the look, lay out and format was all very dated. The contend could do with some new ideas also. If someone what's it in print then a simple print friendly form can be done as-well. But it's off topic. Sorry.


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## jamman

I find that interesting Nyxx and always good to hear different viewpoints because the magazine is the one reason I actually joined the TTOC as my ol mucker Andrew will confirm.

Maybe I'm old skool but I love the magazine.


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## Nyxx

I agree James, I love having a mag also, see we can agree 

But I would like it to look as fresh as the Audi UK mag I get, that with one look has "read me" writen all over it, pardon the pun :wink:

James, it's Dave not Nyxx(just a nick/tag) like I said it's nothing personal I know that can be hard on a forum it get over sometimes.


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## peter-ss

jamman said:


> I find that interesting Nyxx and always good to hear different viewpoints because the magazine is the one reason I actually joined the TTOC as my ol mucker Andrew will confirm.
> 
> Maybe I'm old skool but I love the magazine.


I completely agree with you.

I find the magazine impressive - anyone can put together a pdf and put it online!


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## bigbison

[smiley=zzz.gif]


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## jamman

If you are tired son go for a run do some pressups :roll: :lol:


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## audimad

Even though i no longer own a TT (waiting for the Series/Mk3) i still find the magazine very interesting and an excellent read.


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## Gazzer

peter-ss said:


> jamman said:
> 
> 
> 
> I find that interesting Nyxx and always good to hear different viewpoints because the magazine is the one reason I actually joined the TTOC as my ol mucker Andrew will confirm.
> 
> Maybe I'm old skool but I love the magazine.
> 
> 
> 
> I completely agree with you.
> 
> I find the magazine impressive - anyone can put together a pdf and put it online!
Click to expand...

nothing better Peter than to have recent or older copies to take on a journey for a good read.....oh and to show other tt owners what the club has to offer so a plus 1 from me


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## Nyxx

If I need a hard copy I use a thing called a printer. The mag cost the club a lot of money to print, a hell of a lot. I could think of some great things to do with all them thousands, a hell of a lot of thousands. But each to there own :wink:

It has nothing to do with if you like the contents or if it's "impressive "

Anyone can up load a PDF ? Did you think that one though Peter? Just how do you think the mag is made, on a type writer? Yes anyone can upload a PDF but anyone can spray a car with a tin of paint but that's not really right is it!


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## Gazzer

Nyxx said:


> If I need a hard copy I use a thing called a printer. The mag cost the club a lot of money to print, a hell of a lot. But each to there own :wink:
> 
> It has nothing to do with if you like the contents or if there "impressive "
> 
> Anyone can up load a PDF ? Did you think that one though Peter? Just how do you think the mag is made, on a type writer? Yes anyone can upload a PDF but anyone can spray a car with a tin of paint but that's not really right is it!


tbh Dave i don't understand where you are going with this in regards to costs for the mag? it is only the innitial outlay for the project of each mag and that is a one off cost. so if the club is in profit at present then it is cost effective one would presume? and if every new member coming on board goes for the full membership then the cost per mag decreases the more are printed, in so making it even more cost effective.


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## phope

FYI, each issue of AbsoluTTe costs the club the following, all taken from members money:

Design/layout: £1100

Printing: £1513 - for that we get 600 copies, which is the minimum print run size from the printers - we've inquired in the past, but 600 is the minimum they will do, leaving us with plenty back copies to sell if people want them

Postage: £350. Including postage and envelope, each issue sent to a member costs around £1, and there are around 350 premium members who get the mag at the moment

So there you have it....to produce and post each issue of AbsoluTTe presently costs £2963


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## brittan

That works out at £8.46 per copy posted to each premium member + £1088 of club funds then locked up in "spare paper".


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## phope

The number of full/premium members always varies from issue to issue, as people's memberships expire, renew, or new members come on board - theres around 350 full/premium members today, but by the time of the next AbsoluTTe, it could be back up around 400


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## jamman

I've just gathered all the toys into my cot and they will be flying out at the first mention of dumping the magazine :wink:  :lol:


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## brittan

How many spare, unsold copies of the magazine are there currently in storage?


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## phope

Wallsendmag will know - I've asked him roughly how many are stored


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## Wallsendmag

We have about 2000 back issues at least ,there is no plan to drop the magazine .We get 600 every issue and the other Andy has the vast majority of them stored in his spare room . I've tried giving them away for the price of postage but they are going very slowly . Forgot about the issue 33 boxes behind the sofa


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## brittan

At current production costs that's roughly £8700 locked up in spare magazines.

In due course, perhaps it's worth investigating if there is some way of reducing the wastage.

<Ducks in case a toy is aimed my way>


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## Ikon66

you could possibly sell them to non TTOC members,


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## Wallsendmag

Ikon66 said:


> you could possibly sell them to non TTOC members,


We decided a while ago that only members can buy branded items or magazines ,it's a membership benefit .


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## phope

The problem is that 600 for most printers is a tiny production run, and even if a printer would do a smaller run, they would probably still charge around £1300-1500 for each print run for the specs of each magazine (paper quality, etc)

There's not a great deal of scope to significantly reduce the costs of the magazine unfortunately

We could have it printed on the same paper stock as the Beano...that might work


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## jamman

brittan said:


> <Ducks in case a toy is aimed my way>


Buzz Lightyear on his way :wink:


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## brittan

jamman said:


> brittan said:
> 
> 
> 
> <Ducks in case a toy is aimed my way>
> 
> 
> 
> Buzz Lightyear on his way :wink:
Click to expand...

Missed, he's on his way to infinity - and beyond!


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## phope

:lol:


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## Nyxx

phope said:


> There's not a great deal of scope to significantly reduce the costs of the magazine


Unless the mag by itself brings in the revenue to cover the cost then fine, but if not your burning money printing it.

When you have the new voting up and running I surggest it might be an idea to ask if people would like a digital version and before you throw your toys, at close to 3k a pop the club might be able to spent it on other things. You still get your mag looking the same and you can print it if you like, there is no reason it has to look any different.

Sorry it seems a lot of money when most of it ends up siting in boxes.


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## brittan

phope said:


> The problem is that 600 for most printers is a tiny production run, and even if a printer would do a smaller run, they would probably still charge around £1300-1500 for each print run for the specs of each magazine (paper quality, etc)
> 
> There's not a great deal of scope to significantly reduce the costs of the magazine unfortunately
> 
> We could have it printed on the same paper stock as the Beano...that might work


Yeah, as expected really but still an unfortunate situation to end up with funds tied up like this.


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## Wallsendmag

Nyxx said:


> phope said:
> 
> 
> 
> There's not a great deal of scope to significantly reduce the costs of the magazine
> 
> 
> 
> Unless the mag by itself brings in the revenue to cover the cost then fine, but if not your burning money printing it.
> 
> When you have the new voting up and running I surggest it might be an idea to ask if people would like a digital version and before you throw your toys, at close to 3k a pop the club might be able to spent it on other things. You still get your mag looking the same and you can print it if you like, there is no reason it has to look any different.
> 
> Sorry it seems a lot of money when most of it ends up siting in boxes.
Click to expand...

The majority of members don't get a mag so it may not be a fair poll .


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## phope

The magazine is subsidised from other club activities, but it does bring in money as well. It brings in revenue from advertisers, which I hope will be around £3000 in the club financial year (March 1st 2012 to 31st March 2013)

Let's say we produce and post 4 AbsoluTTes a year at approx £12,000 cost to the club - with advertising at £3000, that leaves £9000 to be covered from members money

Premium members pay £20 more than a web member for their one year membership in return for their printed magazine. With around 350 to 400 premium members at any given time, that's around £7000-8000 towards the cost, leaving £1000-2000 to be taken from club monies we earn from other activities (shop sales, annual EvenTT, etc)

Ideally, we would consistently have 450 or more premium members annually, as then the mag would be completely self financing with the current level of advertising.

We could also increase the price of the premium membership as well to bring in more money, but then people may decide not to buy it in the first place or renew, so it is a tricky balancing act

Club members have made it clear in the past that they value a printed magazine rather than a solely digital version - therefore, we have to work within the costs that such a luxury has.


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## Nyxx

Thank you very much for shedding all that light on the matter.

It sure is a luxury Phope. A real luxury and you still have to drum up £2000 of club taking, I think you mean £2000 profit from club sales, take and make are to very different things so I dead how much you have to take to make that £2000, wow


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## phope

To put that into context, in 2011/2012, the club had a surplus of £2543

That is to say, the total expenses of the club were £2543 less than the total income from everything we do, even allowing for the luxury of having a printed magazine


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## Nyxx

I understand the club is not run for profit, but if I sat down with my account it would not be long before he was pointing his pen at the word magazine and asking me per-lightly to explain myself. [smiley=book2.gif] [smiley=argue.gif]

I have no axe to grind about the mag but I just find it a huge luxury that could be better spent else where.

Said my peace I will leave it at that.


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## John-H

Ooh everybody's suddenly talking about my little magazine. :lol:

We've been through a lot of this before including the idea of selling it on the high street would you believe? It's always been a member benefit though. We ran a poll here some time ago and most premium members said they were not interested in an on line version: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=255013&start=45

The thing about a high quality full colour glossy is that it looks a quality item and members are proud to collect it as a reference and show friends and relatives their car or their article published like this. A pdf is not the same as anyone can produce on line content that can look flash on a screen quite easily - so there's nothing remarkable about that and unless you have a full lithographic printing press your efforts at producing a printed version from a low resolution pdf will look cheap and won't have the quality feel.

It's the ability to be passed around, sit on a coffee table and get thumbed through in a waiting area with a long lifetime which also serves as a effective marketing tool for both the club and its advertisers. It's not unrealistic for example for specialist publications such as this to quote "circulation" figures 10 times the number of actual magazines distributed because of the number of times they are viewed, thumbed through and passed around. Another area where an on line version is less effective.

I think I worked out some time ago that if all the advertising slots were filled in the magazine then it paid for two issues.

As for the design style, it has evolved from the previous style, which when it had a facelift "blew away" one committee member at the time but that was a while ago and our designer was in the process of another facelift. Unfortunately that's all been kiboshed right now.

Content is the important aspect which carries it though and it's the keen contribution of those adding to this which is vital for it's continuation.


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## bigbison

Ooh everybody's suddenly talking about my little magazine. [smiley=huh2.gif] not the ttoc then ?


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## jamman

bigbison said:


> Ooh everybody's suddenly talking about my little magazine. [smiley=huh2.gif] not the ttoc then ?


For a thread that sends you to sleep you seem to keep coming back and reading it. :roll:

If any of us had worked on something for so long without a doubt we would regard it as our baby so don't be so petty and grow up.


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## Phil_RS

I think the other important question is what else you would spend the money on that would bring the same benefit to the premium members?


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## brittan

phope said:


> To put that into context, in 2011/2012, the club had a surplus of £2543
> 
> That is to say, the total expenses of the club were £2543 less than the total income from everything we do, even allowing for the luxury of having a printed magazine


My initial comments were based around some surprise at the amount spent on magazines that remain in storage, hiding from Dr Who and the possibility that by some means we could reduce the outlay leaving additional funds for other uses - albeit that that was inevitably just a repeat of previous attempts at the same.
From the above comment by phope it appears unnecessary given we have a surplus having covered everything.


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## John-H

brittan said:


> phope said:
> 
> 
> 
> To put that into context, in 2011/2012, the club had a surplus of £2543
> 
> That is to say, the total expenses of the club were £2543 less than the total income from everything we do, even allowing for the luxury of having a printed magazine
> 
> 
> 
> My initial comments were based around some surprise at the amount spent on magazines that remain in storage, hiding from Dr Who and the possibility that by some means we could reduce the outlay leaving additional funds for other uses - albeit that that was inevitably just a repeat of previous attempts at the same.
> From the above comment by phope it appears unnecessary given we have a surplus having covered everything.
Click to expand...

As a keen Dr Who fan I'm intrigued by your refernce Brian  Alas I suspect it might be a phone predictive text thing and involve something more mundane - but now we know your secret interest :wink:

EDIT: Doh! I've just realised the saofa connection :lol:


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## Gazzer

ok just a thought here, so bare with me.

if there is currently over 2000 back issues and we have 400 premium members that means minimum of 200 copies per issue that are redundant stock basicaslly? so if you were to reduce the premium membership fee to entice more peeps in (especially ones that have recently lapsed as members) then you could-should shift more copies and increase the membership? am busy at present so maybe not put in the best way, but i hope you get the idea. crunch the numbers on all items sent out to members and what you need in revenue +12% to make it cost effective basically.


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## John-H

Bell curves and yeald springs to mind. Reducing price may well promote more premium membership from web member conversions but then that does presuppose web members are interested in magazines. I think they are web members for a variety of reasons. Some would be interested and may not even be that aware of the magazine. I'm due to introduce one shortly as they have expressed an interest to see it.

Then of course you may well attract more members overall. They fall into the categories of those who would join because of the magazine and perhaps are currently unaware of it, so better marketing is all that's needed, and those who are put off by price (but are we an inexpensive club to join anyway?) and perceived negative aspects preventing them joining a club per se.

One thing I would say is that I get approached by officials from other clubs asking how on earth we do it, partly through curiosity about funding but also through their own experience of struggling to drum up enough member enthusiasm to fill and produce an A5 photocopied newsletter. I wonder if that is partly the answer in itself? :wink:


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## Gazzer

hi John, yes i agree bud in more efficient marketing and looking at all costs and what is or isn't working tbh. one thing my grand kids loved was grampies car being in a magazine, so what if every new member to the club was listed in the mag with a small pic of their car?
so much can be done and improved on everything in life we do i guess.........and as it is all free given time its hard to dedicate too much time to it. 1/4 e-mails to all members on upcoming events and promotions can only help is my guess.

back to work am blasting shed loads of steel beams today


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## ChrisF

Wallsendmag said:


> We have about 2000 back issues at least ,there is no plan to drop the magazine .We get 600 every issue and the other Andy has the vast majority of them stored in his spare room . I've tried giving them away for the price of postage but they are going very slowly . Forgot about the issue 33 boxes behind the sofa


that being the case I wonder why as a new web member I get only one copy 2 years out of day? Had I known about the "price of postage" offer I would have gladly paid an extra coupe of quid to get a selection of back issues, preferably including something a bit more recent.


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## phil3012

ChrisF said:


> Wallsendmag said:
> 
> 
> 
> We have about 2000 back issues at least ,there is no plan to drop the magazine .We get 600 every issue and the other Andy has the vast majority of them stored in his spare room . I've tried giving them away for the price of postage but they are going very slowly . Forgot about the issue 33 boxes behind the sofa
> 
> 
> 
> that being the case I wonder why as a new web member I get only one copy 2 years out of day? Had I known about the "price of postage" offer I would have gladly paid an extra coupe of quid to get a selection of back issues, preferably including something a bit more recent.
Click to expand...

You can still buy them from the TTOC Shop, £2 for 4 issues.


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## Nem

We've actually got more of the older editions as we used to have a minimum print if 1000 copies. The more recent ones are down to 600 per issue.


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## Wallsendmag

Ok add a few more to that total of 2000 back issues as Nick still has 40+ pboxes of 100 mags a time. .It's seven years since the membership proce was fixed at the current level . It must be nearly 30% less in real terms than it was the last time it changed but we have more members now than then.


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## ChrisF

phil3012 said:


> ChrisF said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wallsendmag said:
> 
> 
> 
> We have about 2000 back issues at least ,there is no plan to drop the magazine .We get 600 every issue and the other Andy has the vast majority of them stored in his spare room . I've tried giving them away for the price of postage but they are going very slowly . Forgot about the issue 33 boxes behind the sofa
> 
> 
> 
> that being the case I wonder why as a new web member I get only one copy 2 years out of day? Had I known about the "price of postage" offer I would have gladly paid an extra coupe of quid to get a selection of back issues, preferably including something a bit more recent.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You can still buy them from the TTOC Shop, £2 for 4 issues.
Click to expand...

Oh that sounds good, I'll take a look when I'm at home; can't look at work as when I try to go to TTOC at work Microsoft forefront threat manager says "The page you are trying to browse to is categorized as "Weapons"" (have told Andrew)


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## jamman

phil3012 said:


> You can still buy them from the TTOC Shop, £2 for 4 issues.


Which is an absolute bargain.


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## Gazzer

can i suggest that with 6000+ back issues, we do some serious marketing at the big ADI event this year and give out a free Mag to everyone that turns up who drives a TT.......as 40 boxes in nicks place will only eventually either get damp and ruined or get binned due to lack of space (suprised your mrs hasn't binned them by now Nick) patient woman lol.

i'll do walk around the car parks putting leaflets on screens telling them to bring the leaflet to stand and receive a free mag.


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## Mrs Wallsendmag

We did, we were giving them to anyone who would have them and forcing them on those who didn't :?


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## jamman

We will take a ruck on the Norfolk Performance Stand at GTI Inters if that helps I'm sure my mates at TTS will do the same.


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## paulc1

Maybe we could hand out a few on Sunday at dubs international to get more owners to join the TTOC  , and free up a bit of space in mrs wallsendmag loft at the same time lol


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## Wallsendmag

paulc1 said:


> Maybe we could hand out a few on Sunday at dubs international to get more owners to join the TTOC  , and free up a bit of space in mrs wallsendmag loft at the same time lol


I'm sure Nick could take some to decorate the stand with.


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## Nem

Wallsendmag said:


> paulc1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe we could hand out a few on Sunday at dubs international to get more owners to join the TTOC  , and free up a bit of space in mrs wallsendmag loft at the same time lol
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure Nick could take some to decorate the stand with.
Click to expand...

Forget the stand, I could give the whole of Telford a new look  :lol:


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## Wallsendmag

Nem said:


> Wallsendmag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> paulc1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe we could hand out a few on Sunday at dubs international to get more owners to join the TTOC  , and free up a bit of space in mrs wallsendmag loft at the same time lol
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure Nick could take some to decorate the stand with.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Forget the stand, I could give the whole of Telford a new look  :lol:
Click to expand...

 [smiley=dude.gif]


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## TT K8

Nem said:


> Wallsendmag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> paulc1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe we could hand out a few on Sunday at dubs international to get more owners to join the TTOC  , and free up a bit of space in mrs wallsendmag loft at the same time lol
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure Nick could take some to decorate the stand with.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Forget the stand, I could give the whole of Telford a new look  :lol:
Click to expand...

I expect we'll be to and fro to the car quite a bit on Sunday Nick - happy to hand out mags on the stand if you want to pop some in your boot (no flags this year after all!). We could all do a stint each perhaps.


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## les

Nem said:


> I didn't vote no, but therein lies the problem, you have no idea who's voted, member or nonmember.
> 
> I wasn't aware the club rules were based on forum polls.
> 
> Let us get on with delivering what we have promised and if John wants to stand again at the agm then so be it.


I find the above very ironic to be honest. So just what are the club rules based on, who gave you the right to remove John from the committee, as editor and expel him from the TTOC?

Do you just decide which of the rules you wish to abide by and which of the constitution to ignore? I

f I recall rightly John was elected editor by the membership not put in place by a dictator or other.

Due to the events over the last 12 months or so I decided not to renew my membership of the TTOC and I suspect I won't be the last. Whatever happened to democracy within the TTOC or as it been replaced by mob rule? Not the TTOC I remember and was part of for many years that's for sure.


----------



## les

Wallsendmag said:


> Ok add a few more to that total of 2000 back issues as Nick still has 40+ pboxes of 100 mags a time. .It's seven years since the membership proce was fixed at the current level . It must be nearly 30% less in real terms than it was the last time it changed but we have more members now than then.


That's a good point Andrew however some might say it was a tad too pricey seven years ago. Personally I have always found the cost of membership VFM but lets not forget without the magazine many would think otherwise. I also agree with others in that the magazine is the flagship of the TTOC and without it I would suggest the membership would nose dive.


----------



## Matt B

Wallsendmag said:


> Ikon66 said:
> 
> 
> 
> you could possibly sell them to non TTOC members,
> 
> 
> 
> We decided a while ago that only members can buy branded items or magazines ,it's a membership benefit .
Click to expand...

I would think that principle is a bit costly given your current stock situation. Why on earth wouldn't you punt them out on here and recoup some of that money?


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## Bartsimpsonhead

Sorry for jumping in at the end of this thread (after only skimming the first couple of pages), but when I started reading the TTF and decided to join the TTOC I had no idea they were separate entities and don't think it was made clear they were separate or how they were associated.
So when the TTOC forum was announced as a separate area for members to post, I thought 'what's the point of that? Most of the TT-related chat's on the TTF, why bother looking at the TTOC Forum at all...' If like me other members think the same, then it could explain why a-hundred-odd members haven't logged-on in the last few months. Why bother? There's more to read and more feedback on the TTF.
So reading things now on the TTF about the committee bing in melt-down, and there being votes needed for this or to reinstate that, if its only (or mainly) discussed on the TTOC Forum I imagine a fair number of peeps like me won't have any clue of what's going on or if we need to do or vote on something. 
Other forums I'm on and Mod for (mainly snowboarding) don't have separate 'members only' areas. Seems stupid to me...
As for getting a smaller run of mags printed, you need to got talk to/get quotes from other printing companies!


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## ChrisF

Bartsimpsonhead said:


> Sorry for jumping in at the end of this thread (after only skimming the first couple of pages), but when I started reading the TTF and decided to join the TTOC I had no idea they were separate entities and don't think it was made clear they were separate or how they were associated.
> So when the TTOC forum was announced as a separate area for members to post, I thought 'what's the point of that? Most of the TT-related chat's on the TTF, why bother looking at the TTOC Forum at all...' If like me other members think the same, then it could explain why a-hundred-odd members haven't logged-on in the last few months. Why bother? There's more to read and more feedback on the TTF.
> So reading things now on the TTF about the committee bing in melt-down, and there being votes needed for this or to reinstate that, if its only (or mainly) discussed on the TTOC Forum I imagine a fair number of peeps like me won't have any clue of what's going on or if we need to do or vote on something.
> Other forums I'm on and Mod for (mainly snowboarding) don't have separate 'members only' areas. Seems stupid to me...
> As for getting a smaller run of mags printed, you need to got talk to/get quotes from other printing companies!


+1


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## les

Bartsimpsonhead said:


> As for getting a smaller run of mags printed, you need to got talk to/get quotes from other printing companies!


I would be amazed if they haven't done that a number of times but then nothing amazes me about the TTOC anymore. :?


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## phope

We did get some quotes from printers for a smaller print run than 600 but the reality is that many printers regard the print run of 600 as very small for the type of publication, and there is next to no real savings available even if they were prepared to do a smaller run (which they weren't, by the way)



phope said:


> The problem is that 600 for most printers is a tiny production run, and even if a printer would do a smaller run, they would probably still charge around £1300-1500 for each print run for the specs of each magazine (paper quality, etc)
> 
> There's not a great deal of scope to significantly reduce the costs of the magazine unfortunately
> 
> We could have it printed on the same paper stock as the Beano...that might work


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## Bartsimpsonhead

I find it surprising that there's not a digital edition of the magazine available for download to the general public - considering iPads and other tablets are fairly ubiquitous for reading ebooks/magazines and listening to music, it's a revenue stream that's going largely ignored by the Club.
As it is, being a web member of the Club I've only ever seen one or two (or part thereof) issues of 'AbsoluTTe' - the TTOC_A33_Newsletter being the last. I did ask myself if it was worth shelling out an extra £20 for Premium Membership to get it or not. And I'm not convinced it is. (Paper aside, £20 for a digital edition is pretty steep!!)

Everyone with an iPad will have the 'Newstand' app (or Kindle equivalent, etc), and access to hundreds of publications - it's partly why I don't buy printed magazines anymore. Rather than have a mag lying around the house for a couple of week before throwing it out (long-gone are the days of having a stack of mags in the corner of the spare room curling at the edges) I now have hundreds of books and mags on my iPad which I can carry around with me *everywhere* and read *anytime*. (Yes, even on the loo.)

I regularly get Whitelines, the AA Magazine, Metro, etc., - all downloaded at the touch of a button and no printing or postage costs to the publisher. Straight from InDesign at the touch of a button (almost! - I am a designer with a printing company so do have a bit of an idea about it [smiley=computer.gif])

So it seems madness that at an extra £20 a year on top of web membership the mag is still produced at a loss (without adding additional funding from other sources!!) - Bonkers! 
Even if a digital edition were offered at £10 per year to TTOC web members, or even TTF members (and the world at large, buying through 'Newstand' or the Kindle store) it should at least make enough additional money to cover its costs completely. And those that want a paper edition can still have theirs.

Just my 2¢ worth...


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## John-H

You have clearly made a personal choice how you like to view general magazine content. That's fine. Two things to consider though. If you'd written an article for the club magazine or had your car photographed on an eventt - which would have the most impact with friends and family? Showing them your pride and joy in an a glossy magazine or pinch zooming a page on an electronic screen?

Many members get a kick out of featuring in a quality publication but producing an electronic page can be done by anyone very cheaply and does not stabs out as anything special.

A magazine is also a better marketing tool - think of the number of times an advert is seen in a quality specialist magazine on the table in a suppliers waiting area.

Ongoing it's £30 per year for this and everything else the club offers. That's only £15 more which includes an electronic copy. Are you tempted? What price would tempt you?


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## Bartsimpsonhead

True, people do like looking at their own cars in mags and showing it to friends and family, though if they're anything like mine they'll just look at the pic, maybe read the caption and say "yes dear, very good - you got you little car in a magazine..." and hand it back. And yes, maybe in a garage waiting area more people will look at it, though the last time I was in the TTS there were loads of mags to choose from, and I can't remember seeing a copy of 'AbsoluTTe' (though if I want one in future, I'll know where to go (gasp! Maybe theirs was stolen!!))

You can have the most beautiful, well designed, well written, fun and informative magazine in the world, but if its too expensive or hard to come-by, then very few people are going to read it. Did someone say you send out roughly 400 copies a month/quarter? 400. And the TTOC membership is... 3000? 4000 registered members? So only 10-to-13/14 percent of the membership read it. Ok, a higher % if the membership is less. But still, that's pretty low. And produced at a loss too (if it wasn't supported by other sales) - my accountant would say its a vanity project and to either do something to make it profitable (make it cheaper/more widely available), or just stop production.

Yes, these days anyone with a basic wordprocessing package who fancies themselves as a publisher and produce pdfs of 'Church News' or 'Spanners Monthly', but if you're putting a lot of time and effort into producing a quality magazine anyway - why not let more people see it?
An e-edition might just grow the circulation and trickle down into increased memberships of people looking to save money through club discounts (God knows, saving members money is what Snowboard Club UK (who's site provides for my other passion) sells itself on.)


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## Mark Davies

Bartsimpsonhead said:


> Did someone say you send out roughly 400 copies a month/quarter? 400. And the TTOC membership is... 3000? 4000 registered members?


You're confusing TTOC membership with TTF registered users. There's a little over 850 members of the TTOC, so around half the membership prefer to get the magazine.


----------



## Gazzer

Mark Davies said:


> Bartsimpsonhead said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did someone say you send out roughly 400 copies a month/quarter? 400. And the TTOC membership is... 3000? 4000 registered members?
> 
> 
> 
> You're confusing TTOC membership with TTF registered users. There's a little over 850 members of the TTOC, so around half the membership prefer to get the magazine.
Click to expand...

Mark i have given this massive thought (no sarcastic remarks) :lol: and honestly feel that if Marketing was done correctly then a price would be much lower than at present, to entice the older & younger generation of tt owner to a full membership!!! just be aware it could end up as hoody heaven on the stands lol.
seriously though............such bad managment to have over 6000 back issues hanging around???? talk about wasting club funds fssssssss


----------



## les

Not that I expected a reply of course after all they are rather an uncomfortable few questions that some on the committee would rather duck for their own reasons. 
I was a member of the TTOC for 6 years and put a hell of a lot into it, it cost me time and a great deal of money all of which I was happy to donate both as a member and an area rep. What has this club become in the last 12 months is beyond comprehension and its very sad that a few individuals have seen fit to ride rough shod over the constitution, rules and wishes of the present TTOC membership.



les said:


> Nem said:
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't vote no, but therein lies the problem, you have no idea who's voted, member or nonmember.
> 
> I wasn't aware the club rules were based on forum polls.
> 
> Let us get on with delivering what we have promised and if John wants to stand again at the agm then so be it.
> 
> 
> 
> I find the above very ironic to be honest. So just what are the club rules based on, who gave you the right to remove John from the committee, as editor and expel him from the TTOC?
> 
> Do you just decide which of the rules you wish to abide by and which of the constitution to ignore? I
> 
> f I recall rightly John was elected editor by the membership not put in place by a dictator or other.
> 
> Due to the events over the last 12 months or so I decided not to renew my membership of the TTOC and I suspect I won't be the last. Whatever happened to democracy within the TTOC or as it been replaced by mob rule? Not the TTOC I remember and was part of for many years that's for sure.
Click to expand...


----------



## Gazzer

les said:


> Not that I expected a reply of course after all they are rather an uncomfortable few questions that some on the committee would rather duck for their own reasons.
> I was a member of the TTOC for 6 years and put a hell of a lot into it, it cost me time and a great deal of money all of which I was happy to donate both as a member and an area rep. What has this club become in the last 12 months is beyond comprehension and its very sad that a few individuals have seen fit to ride rough shod over the constitution, rules and wishes of the present TTOC membership.
> 
> 
> 
> les said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nem said:
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't vote no, but therein lies the problem, you have no idea who's voted, member or nonmember.
> 
> I wasn't aware the club rules were based on forum polls.
> 
> Let us get on with delivering what we have promised and if John wants to stand again at the agm then so be it.
> 
> 
> 
> I find the above very ironic to be honest. So just what are the club rules based on, who gave you the right to remove John from the committee, as editor and expel him from the TTOC?
> 
> Do you just decide which of the rules you wish to abide by and which of the constitution to ignore? I
> 
> f I recall rightly John was elected editor by the membership not put in place by a dictator or other.
> 
> Due to the events over the last 12 months or so I decided not to renew my membership of the TTOC and I suspect I won't be the last. Whatever happened to democracy within the TTOC or as it been replaced by mob rule? Not the TTOC I remember and was part of for many years that's for sure.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Les think you have that a tad wrong bud.........no one has asked the membership to know what wishes they have tbh. hense the problems and fuss that is ongoing.


----------



## les

Gazzer said:


> [I remember and was part of for many years that's for sure.


[/quote]
Les think you have that a tad wrong bud.........no one has asked the membership to know what wishes they have tbh. hense the problems and fuss that is ongoing.[/quote]

I understand what you are saying Gazza mate but I don't think you understand where I am so let me explain my statements above so as put the record straight.

1/ John was voted Editor of the TTOC magazine by the membership at the last AGM.
2/ In voting for John as editor the membership also voted him onto the committee as editor is a committee post.
3/ The membership voted on any amendments to the rules and constitution at the AGM I wasn't there so I am not sure if there was any changes but it matters not.
4/ John had his membership,editors position along with his committee post removed by an individual (or was it 2 or three?) on the committee taken from him. 
5/Later Johns membership to the TTOC was returned to him but not the post of editor nor his committee post.
6/ There has been no EGM or AGM and the membership who vote for the above have not been given the opportunity to change anything as yet.

Now as far as I am aware and nobody has challenged this or shown I am wrong. 
Nobody on the committee has the right to remove another committee member of his posts. A committee member can stand down of his own free will but can't simply be removed that is the prerogative of the membership and that is democracy.

If I have the above right then the removal of John from the committee and his post of editor along with his forum moderation is unconstitutional and again the rules of the TTOC. Therefore its again the wishes of the membership as it is they who voted for the rules and constitution not the committee nor any individual on that committee. Nobody on the committee individually or collectively had any right to work outside the rules and constitution.

Now what should have happened is John should have been reinstated to all his posts until such a time the membership decide otherwise or John himself stands down. Only an EGM or AGM can decide that and the votes of the membership.

Given nobody on the committee answered my questions I will assume I am right however I do stand to be corrected. So can the president or chairman inform the membership of the TTOC where in the constitution and rules of the TTOC they have the right to carry out the actions they did in this matter without a mandate from the TTOC membership to do so?

Hence the actions of some are against the wishes of the membership until such time they change and only the membership can change them.

Les.


----------



## Gazzer

totally agree Les, and unfortunately as you cannot see the ttoc forum posts. it has all been stated time and again by many folks and argued back and forth by many in favour of nick's ruling. it is being done on there so the majority of members that know nothing of what is going on don't see it and of course so that the ttoc dirty washing isn't aired in public on here bud.


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## KammyTT

I would have voted for John if tapatalk would let me!


----------



## Ikon66

KammyTT said:


> I would have voted for John if tapatalk would let me!


Poll was only open for a week iirc. So not a tapatalk issue


----------



## KammyTT

I don't think I'm able to vote on a poll using tapatalk!

I could be doing it wrong mind you


----------



## Ikon66

KammyTT said:


> I don't think I'm able to vote on a poll using tapatalk!
> 
> I could be doing it wrong mind you


Did you not read my reply? The poll is closed


----------



## Gazzer

:roll:


----------

